“What You Need To Know About The $22 Trillion National Debt”: The Alternative SHORT Interview

Steven Rattner’s opinion piece in the New York Times and Furman’s interview on National Public Radio are perfect examples of the ideas that MMT want to debunk.

史蒂文·拉特纳在《纽约时报》上发表的评论文章和弗曼在国家公共广播电台上的采访都是现代货币理论想要揭穿的想法的完美例子。

Deficits are not normal; deficits crowd out private investment; the public debt is a burden on our grandchildren; our ability to respond to societal problems is limited by the fact that the US government does not have enough money to confront them.

赤字是不正常的；赤字挤出私人投资；公共债务是我们子孙后代的负担；我们应对社会问题的能力受到美国政府没有足够资金来应对这些问题的限制。

Below is an alternative interview to the Furman’s interview that reviews these points.

以下是弗曼采访的另一篇采访，回顾了这些观点。

This is the short version that provides quick-bit answers.

这是提供快速答案的简短版本。

A long version that provide data and more elaborated answers is available also on this blog (Dear Ms. Cornish, I hope you will forgive me but I will plagiarize you entirely for the sake of this exercise).

此博客上还提供了提供数据和更详细答案的长版本（亲爱的康沃尔女士，我希望您能原谅我，但为了这个练习，我将完全抄袭您）。

The national debt surpassed $22 trillion this week – a new record – and this despite candidate Donald Trump’s promise to reduce U.S. debt once he became president.

尽管候选人唐纳德·特朗普承诺在就任总统后减少美国债务，但本周国家债务仍超过 22 万亿美元，创下新纪录。

There was a time when the soaring national debt caused panic in Washington.

曾经一度飙升的国债在华盛顿引发恐慌。

Now it’s mostly crickets, at least from the officials who have control over the federal budget.

现在主要是蟋蟀，至少来自控制联邦预算的官员。

So what’s changed?

那么发生了什么变化呢？

We’re going to ask Eric Tymoigne.

我们要问埃里克·蒂莫瓦尼。

He is an associate professor of economics at Lewis & Clark College.

他是刘易斯与克拉克学院的经济学副教授。

His works shows that one must make a crucial distinction between monetarily sovereign and non-monetarily sovereign governments when discussing issues surrounding the public debt and fiscal deficits.

他的著作表明，在讨论公共债务和财政赤字问题时，必须对货币主权政府和非货币主权政府做出关键区分。

But regarding your question, yes $22 trillion is a large number but it really is just a number on a spreadsheet.

但关于你的问题，22 万亿美元是一个很大的数字，但它实际上只是电子表格上的一个数字。

It would be scary if it had any negative impact on the economy.

如果它对经济产生任何负面影响，那将是可怕的。

There is scant evidence of that despite the broken records continuously played by those who promote hysteria about the public debt.

尽管那些宣扬公共债务歇斯底里的人不断创造出破纪录的记录，但几乎没有证据表明这一点。

Treasury securities provide to households, firms, pension funds, state governments and foreigners a means to accumulate financial wealth in a safe way.

国债为家庭、公司、养老基金、州政府和外国人提供了一种以安全方式积累金融财富的手段。

Treasury securities are also the backbone of the financial system.

国债也是金融体系的支柱。

Looking more broadly at the economy there is no evidence that the public debt has any negative impact on economic growth, inflation, tax rates, or interest rates.

从更广泛的角度来看经济，没有证据表明公共债务对经济增长、通货膨胀、税率或利率有任何负面影响。

The deficit does not raise interest rates and does not lower economic growth.

赤字不会提高利率，也不会降低经济增长。

A higher public debt does not lead to higher tax rates.

较高的公共债务不会导致较高的税率。

The US government does not, has never, and ought not to, manage the public debt in the same way you and I manage our private debts.

美国政府现在、过去、也不应该以你我管理私人债务的方式管理公共债务。

It is incorrect to analyze the finances of the US government by taking household or business finances as a point of reference.

以家庭或企业财务为参考来分析美国政府的财政是不正确的。

Public and private debts are totally different animals when a monetarily sovereign government is involved.

当涉及货币主权政府时，公共债务和私人债务是完全不同的动物。

TYMOIGNE.

蒂莫瓦涅。

Nothing has changed.

一切都没有改变。

As usual, in the short run, deficits sustain private incomes by injecting more money in the economy than they remove through taxes.

与往常一样，在短期内，赤字通过向经济注入的资金多于通过税收消除的资金来维持私人收入。

Deficits help to sustain private investment by stabilizing the profit of businesses.

赤字有助于稳定企业利润，从而维持私人投资。

Expected sales, not interest rates, are the main driver of business investment and fiscal deficits boost the sales of businesses while having a negligible impact on the cost of credit.

预期销售而非利率是商业投资的主要驱动力，财政赤字促进了企业销售，同时对信贷成本的影响可以忽略不计。

In the long run, deficits translate into the public debt that provides a reliable source of net wealth to non-federal sectors.

从长远来看，赤字转化为公共债务，为非联邦部门提供可靠的净财富来源。

The public debt will never be repaid.

公共债务永远无法偿还。

We have not been burdened with higher tax rates to repay the public debt created at the time of our grandparents; our children and grandchildren won’t be burdened by higher tax rates to repay the public debt created today.

我们并没有承受更高的税率来偿还我们祖父母时代创造的公共债务；我们的子孙不会承受更高税率的负担来偿还今天产生的公共债务。

We may raise tax rates in the future but not with the goal of repaying the public debt.

我们未来可能会提高税率，但目的不是偿还公共债务。

There is no reason to do so, and doing so would be harmful to the finances of households, banks, firms and other for the reasons I just provided.

没有理由这样做，而且出于我刚才提供的原因，这样做会对家庭、银行、公司和其他方面的财务造成损害。

TYMOIGNE.

蒂莫瓦涅。

The main reason the US Treasury runs a deficit is not deliberate reckless policies or politicians who do not know how to put the US government finances in order.

美国财政部出现赤字的主要原因不是故意鲁莽的政策，也不是政客不知道如何整理美国政府的财政。

The US government actually has little control over the size of its expenditures and revenues.

美国政府实际上对其支出和收入的规模几乎没有控制权。

Tax revenues are heavily influenced by the income earned by the domestic private sector and this fluctuates widely with the business cycle.

税收收入很大程度上受到国内私营部门收入的影响，并且随着商业周期的变化而大幅波动。

Government expenditures are largely set by legal requirements (social security, Medicare, etc.).

政府支出主要由法律要求（社会保障、医疗保险等）决定。

Of course, this begs the question of what, if not the US government, determines the size of the fiscal position and so the growth of the public debt.

当然，这就引出了一个问题：如果不是美国政府，那么是什么决定了财政状况的规模以及公共债务的增长。

The main drivers are the desire of other economic sectors to improve their financial standing.

主要驱动因素是其他经济部门改善其财务状况的愿望。

At the macroeconomic level, not all economic sectors can record a surplus at the same time, at least one of them must be in deficit for the others to be in surplus.

从宏观经济层面看，并非所有经济部门都能同时实现顺差，至少必须有一个部门出现赤字，其他部门才能出现盈余。

In the case of the United States, the domestic private sector and the foreign sector want a surplus.

就美国而言，国内私营部门和外国部门都希望获得盈余。

They record a surplus; therefore, the government sector must record a deficit.

他们记录了盈余；因此，政府部门必须出现赤字。

In other words, fiscal deficits are a normal state of affairs for the US government.

换句话说，财政赤字是美国政府的常态。

They have been so for decades.

几十年来他们一直如此。

This is the norm in the United States and throughout the world.

这是美国乃至全世界的常态。

Get over it.

克服它。

So no, the government should not proactively try to reduce its fiscal deficit and repay its public debt.

因此，政府不应该主动尝试减少财政赤字和偿还公共债务。

The government should let it fiscal position (deficit, surplus or balance budget) be whatever it needs to be in order to accommodate the desires of the other sectors to improve their financial standing.

政府应根据需要调整其财政状况（赤字、盈余或平衡预算），以适应其他部门改善其财务状况的愿望。

Going against the desired surplus of the non-government sectors will only result in a recession.

违背非政府部门所期望的盈余只会导致经济衰退。

TYMOIGNE.

蒂莫瓦涅。

Again, the fiscal position will adjust to the needs of the economy.

同样，财政状况将根据经济的需要进行调整。

We should forget altogether about the number on a spreadsheet and pay attention to the real issues.

我们应该完全忘记电子表格上的数字，而关注真正的问题。

In that case, the tax law was a major issue in the sense that it has provided massive permanent tax breaks to income categories that do not need them.

在这种情况下，税法是一个重大问题，因为它为不需要的收入类别提供了大规模的永久性税收减免。

In that sense, we are moving in the wrong direction because we are reinforcing income and wealth inequalities that are already extremely high.

从这个意义上说，我们正朝着错误的方向前进，因为我们正在加剧已经非常严重的收入和财富不平等。

The new tax law perpetuates and encourages the rise of dynasties that already have overwhelming influences on our socio-eco-political life.

新税法延续并鼓励了那些已经对我们的社会生态政治生活产生压倒性影响的王朝的崛起。

TYMOIGNE.

蒂莫瓦涅。

The national debt is not an indicator of our long-term economic health.

国债并不是我们长期经济健康状况的指标。

The public debt can always be repaid.

公共债务总是可以偿还的。

The US government cannot be forced to default on its public debt because it is monetarily sovereign; it issues the dollars needed to service the public debt.

美国政府不能被迫拖欠其公共债务，因为它具有货币主权；它发行偿还公共债务所需的美元。

This, of course, does not mean that we ought to repay the debt at once by “printing money”; this is a silly conclusion.

当然，这并不意味着我们应该立即通过“印钞票”来偿还债务；这是一个愚蠢的结论。

That would be massively inflationary and I already stated that it is in nobody’s interest to repay the public debt and we won’t.

这将导致严重的通货膨胀，我已经说过，偿还公共债务不符合任何人的利益，我们也不会这样做。

What monetary sovereignty means is that the US government has control over the cost of its public debt, that it can decide what type of debt to offer to other sectors, and that government has the financial flexibility to spend on whatever its society decided is the public purpose.

货币主权意味着美国政府可以控制其公共债务的成本，可以决定向其他部门提供何种类型的债务，并且政府具有财务灵活性，可以将其支出用于社会决定的任何公共目的。

As long as the cost of public debt stays low relative to the growth of the economy, the public debt will not explode relative to the size of the economy.

只要公共债务成本相对于经济增长保持在较低水平，公共债务相对于经济规模就不会爆炸。

The usual case is that the interest rate on the public debt is below the growth rate of the economy, precisely because a monetarily sovereign government has a strong control over that interest rate.

通常的情况是公共债务利率低于经济增长率，正是因为货币主权政府对该利率有强有力的控制。

What are indicators of health for our economy?

我们经济的健康指标是什么？

Standard of living, life expectancy, literacy rate, availability and quality of childcare and healthcare, are major indicators.

生活水平、预期寿命、识字率、儿童保育和医疗保健的可用性和质量是主要指标。

Low unemployment, moderate income and wealth inequalities that encourage individual initiatives, quality infrastructures that accommodate the needs of the society, and environmental sustainability are others.

其他因素包括低失业率、鼓励个人主动性的适度收入和财富不平等、满足社会需求的优质基础设施以及环境可持续性。

We are failing on a number of these indicators of economic health.

我们在许多经济健康指标方面都表现不佳。

Take a look at the crumbling state of our infrastructures that requires trillions of dollars to be brought back up to standard.

看看我们的基础设施摇摇欲坠的状况，需要数万亿美元才能恢复到标准。

Today the greatest threat is environmental sustainability.

今天最大的威胁是环境的可持续性。

This problem is so large that it directly threatens human existence.

这个问题太大了，直接威胁到人类的生存。

Responding effectively to these pressing issues will require massive government spending, and generate a rapid increase in the public debt, here and abroad.

有效应对这些紧迫问题需要大量政府支出，并导致国内外公共债务迅速增加。

We did it during World War Two, we can do it again.

我们在第二次世界大战期间做到了，我们可以再做一次。

The question you have to ask yourself is if tackling these issues is more important than a number on a spreadsheet.

您必须问自己的问题是，解决这些问题是否比电子表格上的数字更重要。

While solving these issues may require sacrifice in terms of productive resources, especially if a rapid reengineering of our economy is required (which it is for some issues), it will not require a sacrifice in financial terms for the US government and our grandchildren.

虽然解决这些问题可能需要牺牲生产资源，特别是如果需要对我们的经济进行快速重新设计（对于某些问题来说是这样），但对于美国政府和我们的子孙来说，这不需要在财政方面做出牺牲。

What is productively possible is always financially possible for a monetarily sovereign government.

对于货币主权政府来说，生产上可能的事情在财务上总是可能的。

We may have to declare War on Climate Change for people to realize that.

我们可能必须向气候变化宣战，人们才能意识到这一点。