How to grow a subscription business | Yuriy Timen (Grammarly, Canva, Airtable)

Yuriy Timen: The only thing that's worse than a channel or a tactic that you tried not working.

Yuriy Timen：唯一比你尝试过但不起作用的渠道或策略更糟糕的事情。

The only thing that's worse now is when you didn't give it the appropriate shot, right?

现在唯一更糟糕的是你没有给它适当的机会，对吧？

And you prematurely were erroneously concluded that it doesn't work and it's remarkable how often you find that to be the case when I talk to companies, "Oh, YouTube, we tried it.

你过早地错误地得出了它不起作用的结论，值得注意的是，当我与公司交谈时，你经常发现这种情况，“哦，YouTube，我们尝试过。

It doesn't work." I'm like, "Okay, can I see what you've tried?" And then you look at it and you're like, "Oh, this thing was not designed to even have a shot at working from the get go."

这不起作用。”我想，“好吧，我可以看看你尝试了什么吗？”然后你看着它，你会想，“哦，这个东西的设计目的甚至不是从一开始就可以工作。”

Lenny: Yuriy Timen is a full-time advisor to companies looking to figure out their growth strategy.

Lenny：Yuriy Timen 是寻求制定增长战略的公司的全职顾问。

He's worked with companies like Canva, Airtable, Otter, Whimsical, Hims, Flow Health, and a dozen others.

他曾与 Canva、Airtable、Otter、Whimsical、Hims、Flow Health 等十几家公司合作。

I know a number of founders who have worked with Yuriy and they all tell me that he transformed how they think about their growth.

我认识一些曾与尤里共事过的创始人，他们都告诉我，他改变了他们对成长的看法。

Before becoming an advisor, he spent nine years at Grammarly where he led growth in marketing and helped turn that into the household name that it is today.

在成为顾问之前，他在 Grammarly 工作了九年，领导了营销领域的发展，并帮助该公司成为如今家喻户晓的品牌。

Lenny: In our chat, we get incredibly tactical about all of the ways that you can grow your product, including when and how to invest in virality, SEO, and paid growth.

Lenny：在我们的聊天中，我们对产品增长的所有方式都采取了令人难以置信的战术，包括何时以及如何投资病毒式传播、搜索引擎优化和付费增长。

What's changing across each of those channels and the most common failure modes for B2C startups.

每个渠道的变化以及 B2C 初创企业最常见的失败模式。

This is the most tactical and actionable conversation I have had yet on how to grow your product, particularly a subscription product.

这是我迄今为止就如何发展产品（尤其是订阅产品）进行的最具策略性和可操作性的对话。

And I'm really excited for you to hear it.

我很高兴你能听到这个消息。

With that I bring you Yuriy Timen.

接下来我给你带来尤里·泰门（Yuriy Timen）。

Lenny: Hey, Ashley, head of marketing and Flat File.

莱尼：嘿，阿什利，营销和平面文件主管。

How many B2B SAS companies would you estimate B to import CSV files from their customers?

您估计有多少家 B2B SAS 公司会从其客户那里导入 CSV 文件？

Lenny: And how many of them screw that up and what happens when they do?

莱尼：有多少人把事情搞砸了？当他们这样做时会发生什么？

Ashley: Well, based on our data, about a third of people will consider switching to another company after just one bad experience during onboarding.

阿什利：嗯，根据我们的数据，大约三分之一的人在入职期间经历过一次糟糕的经历后就会考虑跳槽到另一家公司。

So if your CSV importer doesn't work right, which is super common, considering customer files are chalk full of unexpected data and formatting they'll leave.

因此，如果您的 CSV 导入器无法正常工作（这种情况非常常见），考虑到客户文件中充满了意外数据和格式，它们就会留下。

Lenny: I am 0% surprised to hear that.

Lenny：听到这个消息我感到 0% 惊讶。

I've consistently seen that improving onboarding is one of the highest leverage opportunities for both signup, conversion and increasing long term retention.

我一直认为，改善入职是注册、转化和增加长期保留的最高杠杆机会之一。

Getting people to your aha moment more quickly and reliably is so incredibly important.

让人们更快、更可靠地进入顿悟时刻非常重要。

Ashley: Totally.

阿什利：完全可以。

It's incredible to see how our customers like Square, Spotify, and Zuora are able to grow their businesses on top of flat file.

看到 Square、Spotify 和 Zuora 等客户如何能够在平面文件上发展业务，真是令人难以置信。

It's because flawless data onboarding acts like a catalyst to get them and their customers where they need to go faster.

这是因为完美的数据导入就像催化剂一样，让他们及其客户更快地到达需要的地方。

Lenny: If you'd like to learn more or get started, check out Flat File at flatfile.com/lenny.

Lenny：如果您想了解更多信息或开始使用，请访问 flatfile.com/lenny 查看平面文件。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Modern Treasury.

莱尼：这一集是由现代财政部为您带来的。

Modern Treasury is a next generation operating system for moving and tracking money.

现代金库是用于转移和跟踪资金的下一代操作系统。

They're modernizing the developer tools and financial processes for companies managing complex payment flows.

他们正在为管理复杂支付流程的公司实现开发工具和财务流程的现代化。

Think digital wallets via crypto on ramps, ride sharing, marketplaces, instant lending, and more.

考虑通过加密坡道、拼车、市场、即时贷款等方式实现的数字钱包。

They work with high growth companies like Gusto, Pipe, Class Pass and Marketa.

他们与 Gusto、Pipe、Class Pass 和 Marketa 等高增长公司合作。

Modern Treasuries robust APIs allow engineering to build payment flows right into your product while finance can monitor and approve everything through a sleek and modern web dashboard.

Modern Treasuries 强大的 API 允许工程人员将支付流程直接构建到您的产品中，而财务人员可以通过时尚而现代的网络仪表板监控和批准一切。

Enabling real time payments, automatic reconciliation, continuous accounting and compliance solutions.

实现实时支付、自动对账、持续会计和合规解决方案。

Modern Treasuries platform is used to reconcile over $3 billion per month.

Modern Treasuries 平台每月可调节超过 30 亿美元。

They're one of the hottest young FinTech startups on the market today.

他们是当今市场上最热门的年轻金融科技初创公司之一。

Having raised funding from top firms like Benchmark Altimeter, SB Capital, Salesforce Ventures, and Y Combinator.

已从 Benchmark Altimeter、SB Capital、Salesforce Ventures 和 Y Combinator 等顶级公司筹集资金。

Check them out at moderntreasury.com.

请访问 Moderntreasury.com 查看它们。

Lenny: Yuriy, welcome to the podcast.

莱尼：尤里，欢迎来到播客。

Yuriy Timen: Thanks for having me man.

Yuriy Timen：谢谢你邀请我。

This is great.

这太棒了。

Lenny: So I'm going to give a quick bio.

莱尼：所以我要简单介绍一下。

Let me know if I missed anything really important.

如果我错过了任何真正重要的事情，请告诉我。

You were head of growth at Grammarly.

您是 Grammarly 的增长主管。

You spent nine years there kind of doing all the things that helped turn that company into the killer product that it is today.

你在那里花了九年的时间，做了所有的事情，帮助那家公司变成了今天的杀手级产品。

You left that I think a couple years ago.

我想几年前你就离开了。

Now you're advising companies mostly full-time.

现在你主要为公司提供全职咨询服务。

I think mostly on growth strategy.

我认为主要是增长战略。

I think mostly consumer startups, is that about right?

我认为主要是消费类初创公司，是这样吗？

Yuriy Timen: A couple of super critical corrections.

Yuriy Timen：一些非常重要的修正。

Number one, it was only eight and a half years.

第一，只有八年半的时间。

Lenny: Okay.

莱尼：好的。

Usually people round those up.

通常人们会将这些四舍五入。

I'm impressed that you get-

我印象深刻的是你得到了——

Yuriy Timen: I think eight and a half is long enough.

Yuriy Timen：我认为八个半就足够了。

Yeah, not sure I want to round up.

是的，不确定我想凑整。

I know, but I'm kidding obviously.

我知道，但我显然是在开玩笑。

Yeah.

是的。

That's largely it.

基本上就是这样。

Grammarly was a hell of a run and trying to take a step back from that, and stepping back has kind of taken on a life of its own vis a vis advising.

Grammarly 经历了一场地狱般的奔跑，并试图从中退一步，而退一步与建议相比，有点具有自己的生命力。

Lenny: How many companies have you worked with at this point advised and what are some examples, just like companies people would know.

Lenny：到目前为止，您已经与多少家公司合作过，有哪些例子，就像人们所知道的公司一样。

Yuriy Timen: It's now been about, I guess two years and three months since my last day at Grammarly in an operating capacity.

Yuriy Timen：距离我在 Grammarly 执行任务的最后一天，我想已经过去两年零三个月了。

I've probably worked with maybe 15 companies in the last two and a little bit of years.

在过去两年多的时间里，我可能与 15 家公司合作过。

Obviously, not all at once.

显然，不是一下子就全部完成。

It's usually four to five at any given point in time.

在任何给定时间点通常是四到五个。

But some of the ones that I've been really lucked out with in terms of getting aligned with companies like Canva, Airtable, Hims and Hers in the personal care space, there is otter.ai.

但在个人护理领域，我非常幸运地与 Canva、Airtable、Hims and Hers 等公司结盟，其中有 otter.ai。

Who else?

还有谁？

Flow Health, the world's most downloaded period tracker.

Flow Health，世界上下载次数最多的经期追踪器。

Lenny: I used that for my wife.

莱尼：我给我妻子用的。

It's handy.

很方便。

Yuriy Timen: Good, good.

尤里·泰门： 好，好。

Yeah.

是的。

I was trying to get my wife to try it out, but been unsuccessful.

我试图让我的妻子尝试一下，但没有成功。

Lenny: You're failing in your growth.

莱尼：你的成长失败了。

Yuriy Timen: She was like, "Are you trying to push me to having a third kid?" I was like, "No, no, I swear." This is just product testing.

Yuriy Timen：她说，“你是想逼我生第三个孩子吗？”我当时想，“不，不，我发誓。”这只是产品测试。

Lenny: Clever.

莱尼：聪明。

So I've had Casey Winters on this podcast and Elena Verna.

所以我邀请了凯西·温特斯（Casey Winters）和埃琳娜·维娜（Elena Verna）参与这个播客。

It's kind of like the three of you that it feels like have worked with the most companies as advisors.

这有点像你们三个人作为顾问与大多数公司合作过的感觉。

I don't know if there's some kind of contest y'all have or anything, but do you think about that at all?

我不知道你们是否有某种竞赛之类的，但你有想过吗？

Is there anyone else out there that you think is in the running?

您认为还有其他人在竞选吗？

Yuriy Timen: First of all, just being mentioned the same breath as those two is an accolade in and of itself.

Yuriy Timen：首先，与这两个人同时被提及本身就是一种荣誉。

I mean, I look up to both of them.

我的意思是，我很尊敬他们两个。

They've gone first.

他们先走了。

Also, I credit a lot of my getting started to both of them because they've been very generous with their time when I was just kind of considering advising, especially Casey, if they listen to this.

另外，我把我的起步归功于他们俩，因为当我只是考虑提供建议时，他们非常慷慨地花费了时间，尤其是凯西，如果他们听了的话。

Huge shine out to both of them, but Casey especially.

他们俩都散发着巨大的光芒，但凯西尤其如此。

He's such immense when it comes to just being generous with his time.

当谈到慷慨地利用自己的时间时，他真是太棒了。

So no, there is no competition, but had there been one, I suspect I'd be in lead right now because I've done it.

所以不，没有竞争，但如果有竞争，我怀疑我现在会处于领先地位，因为我已经做到了。

I've done it in a shorter period of time.

我在更短的时间内完成了它。

I'm much newer to advising than both of those, but no, I have a ton of aberration respect both of them.

我在咨询方面比他们都新得多，但不，我对他们两个都有很多失常的尊重。

They're phenomenal what they do and I learned a ton from them.

他们所做的事情非常出色，我从他们身上学到了很多东西。

Lenny: I love that acceleration is fastest.

莱尼：我喜欢加速最快。

Wow, sweet.

哇，甜甜的。

So we're going to talk a lot about consumer growth strategies and your experience working with companies and a bunch of insights on things you've learned from working with companies.

因此，我们将详细讨论消费者增长策略、您与公司合作的经验以及您从与公司合作中学到的大量见解。

Before we get there just one quick question in your advising.

在我们讨论之前，请先简单问一个问题。

I'm curious how many companies do you work with at once normally?

我很好奇您通常同时与多少家公司合作？

Yuriy Timen: Yeah, so I play around with different quantities.

Yuriy Timen：是的，所以我尝试了不同的数量。

So a couple of things.

有几件事。

So you mentioned, you alluded to earlier that I advise full time.

所以你提到，你之前提到过我建议全职。

What I'll say is that mostly the only thing that I do right now professionally is advising, but it's not quite full time.

我要说的是，我现在唯一专业做的事情就是提供建议，但这并不是全职工作。

I hard count my week at about three to three and a half days a week worth of work, which is a personal choice.

我很难计算我一周的工作量，每周大约三到三天半，这是个人选择。

And so that is a hard constraint that I'm working with.

所以这是我正在努力解决的一个硬约束。

And within that constraint, I also feel like for me to do my best work and the work that I also enjoy the most and find the most fulfilling four to five companies is probably the max.

在这个限制范围内，我也觉得我要做最好的工作，我也最喜欢的工作，找到最有成就感的四到五家公司可能是最多的。

If I try to go beyond that, the overhead that it creates in terms of the cost of context switching just becomes overwhelming.

如果我试图超越这个范围，它在上下文切换成本方面产生的开销就会变得巨大。

I feel like I'm not showing up as best as I can with each individual company.

我觉得我没有在每家公司都尽我所能地表现出来。

Lenny: As early plug or anti plug, depending on how you answer this.

Lenny：是早插还是反插，取决于你如何回答这个问题。

Are you looking for more companies to work with right now or are you just like, "Don't even try.

您现在是否正在寻找更多的公司合作，或者您只是想，“甚至不要尝试。

I am so at capacity right now."?

我现在已经满员了。”？

Yuriy Timen: I'm so at capacity right now.

Yuriy Timen：我现在已经很忙了。

I've also just been very fortunate to always be at capacity.

我也很幸运能够始终处于满负荷状态。

But I think for every four to five companies that I'm working with, think of it as a concentric circles, right?

但我认为，与我合作的每四到五家公司，都会将其视为同心圆，对吧？

There are another, maybe 10 to a dozen companies that we're actively exploring if we want to work together in the future.

如果我们将来想合作的话，我们正在积极探索另外的，也许是十到十几家公司。

And then there is another concentric circle so maybe 30 plus companies that I'm just friends with.

然后还有另一个同心圆，大概有 30 多家我只是朋友的公司。

So I'll take the plug.

那我就拿插头吧。

I'm always up for meeting Austin founders working on important problems.

我总是乐于与致力于解决重要问题的奥斯汀创始人会面。

Lenny: Cool.

莱尼：酷。

Well, we're in the plug I guess.

好吧，我猜我们已经插上了插头。

How do people find you online?

人们如何在网上找到您？

What's your Twitter?

你的推特是什么？

Yuriy Timen: I mean, honestly, probably throw Lenny's podcast.

Yuriy Timen：老实说，我的意思是，可能会扔掉 Lenny 的播客。

That's one, but honestly LinkedIn is really the only place I'm pretty low key otherwise.

这就是其中之一，但老实说，LinkedIn 确实是我唯一一个在其他方面相当低调的地方。

Lenny: Okay, great.

莱尼：好的，太好了。

That was a lot of Meta stuff.

那是很多元的东西。

So let's get into some meat stuff here.

那么让我们在这里讨论一些肉类。

So you talked to a lot of consumer startups.

所以你和很多消费类初创公司进行了交谈。

You help them figure out how to grow, how to evolve their product, something I'm always curious about and I love your thoughts on is when you look at a consumer startup, I imagine there's a few archetypes of how they grow.

你帮助他们弄清楚如何成长，如何发展他们的产品，我一直很好奇并且我喜欢你的想法，当你看到一家消费者初创公司时，我想他们有一些如何成长的原型。

I'm curious if that's a mental model you use when you're like, "Oh, I see company X.

我很好奇当你说“哦，我看到 X 公司了”时，这是否是你使用的心理模型。

They're probably going to grow this way, and here's what they should focus on." How do you see that?

他们可能会以这种方式成长，这就是他们应该关注的事情。”你怎么看？

Yuriy Timen: Great question.

尤里·泰门：好问题。

I think there are ways to answer that.

我认为有一些方法可以回答这个问题。

My sweet spot is subscription properties and it's not just consumer.

我的最佳选择是订阅属性，而不仅仅是消费者。

I do work with a lot of B2B companies.

我与很多 B2B 公司合作。

It's just that most of them, but what they all have in common is they lean into consumerized type of growth loops and growth motions.

只是他们中的大多数人，但他们都有一个共同点，那就是他们都倾向于消费化类型的增长循环和增长运动。

So they're very kind of self-serve nature or have meaningful self-serve engines.

因此，它们具有非常自助的性质，或者具有有意义的自助服务引擎。

So if I think about subscription companies, I think there are probably a couple of buckets that I see them falling into.

因此，如果我考虑订阅公司，我认为它们可能属于以下几个类别。

If you were able to nail your unit economics and you have really strong consumer LTVs, think Grammarly, think Canva.

如果您能够确定单位经济效益并且拥有非常强大的消费者生命周期价值，请考虑 Grammarly，考虑 Canva。

The single player LTVs for those companies are very, very high.

这些公司的单人生命周期价值非常非常高。

They're kind of average S&B LTVs for B2B companies.

它们是 B2B 公司的平均 S&B LTV。

Lenny: What's a number there just for folks to have a little context?

莱尼：有什么数字可以让人们了解一些背景信息？

Yuriy Timen: I'm not a liberty to speak to those, but we're talking in the hundreds of dollars.

Yuriy Timen：我无权与这些人交谈，但我们谈论的是数百美元。

Most consumer subscription companies that are $5 to $7 a month.

大多数消费者订阅公司的价格为每月 5 至 7 美元。

Their LTVs typically cap out at 50 to 60 bucks.

他们的 LTV 通常上限为 50 至 60 美元。

Yuriy Timen: And so if you have really healthy LTVs, and that usually means that you're attracting a proconsumer buyer, so they may be single player, but they're using it for work.

Yuriy Timen：如果你有非常健康的生命周期价值，这通常意味着你正在吸引亲消费者买家，所以他们可能是单人玩家，但他们将其用于工作。

And so maybe they're dispensing it or just the perceived value so much higher that they're willing to bear that $120 and $130 a year subscription.

因此，也许他们正在分发它，或者只是认为它的价值高得多，以至于他们愿意承担每年 120 美元和 130 美元的订阅费。

If I'm seeing things like that and I'm seeing that you're converting seven, like five plus percent of your free users to a paid subscriber, then there is a big opportunity to play paid and lean into paid growth loops and paid acquisition loops.

如果我看到类似的情况，并且我看到您正在将 7 个（例如 5% 以上的免费用户）转换为付费订阅者，那么就有很大的机会玩付费游戏，并倾向于付费增长循环和付费获取循环。

There is another archetype, which is if there are network effects for instance, you don't find that as much with single player consumer subscription companies, but obviously social media, consumer companies.

还有另一种原型，例如，如果存在网络效应，你不会发现单人消费者订阅公司有那么多网络效应，但显然是社交媒体、消费者公司。

Yuriy Timen: There may be a strong referral viral loop angle if the utility increases, the utility of the product increases, the more users are using it.

Yuriy Timen：如果效用增加，产品的效用增加，使用它的用户越多，可能会产生很强的推荐病毒循环角度。

Another archetype I see are companies that can lead into SEO very heavily, especially if there is a long tail programmatic angle.

我看到的另一个原型是可以大力投入搜索引擎优化的公司，特别是如果有长尾程序化角度的话。

Take Canva for instance, their biggest initial growth loop and I think this is public knowledge was their long tail SEO strategy where any kind of design project that you could think of would search for designing.

以 Canva 为例，他们最大的初始增长循环，我认为这是公众所知的是他们的长尾 SEO 策略，你能想到的任何类型的设计项目都会搜索设计。

It's kind of two categories of keywords, make keywords and template keywords.

它有两类关键字：制作关键字和模板关键字。

So if you're searching for a template of any kind, a wedding invitation, yada yada, they had incredibly strong SEO and they were just capitalizing on all the long tail traffic.

因此，如果您正在寻找任何类型的模板，例如婚礼请柬，yada yada，他们拥有非常强大的 SEO，并且他们只是利用所有长尾流量。

Not every product is going to lend itself to that, but I always look for that early on, because you can build incredible mold with that kind of strategy.

并非所有产品都适合这一点，但我总是尽早寻找这一点，因为你可以用这种策略构建令人难以置信的模具。

Lenny: That makes sense.

莱尼：这是有道理的。

There's kind of like these three engines that you can tap into.

您可以利用这三个引擎。

I imagine the preference would be word of mouth reality and then if that isn't going to work SEO, and if that is going to work paid, maybe just to simplify it for listeners, what are kind of signals you can go after virality and invest in that and think that could work because every founder would be like, "Yes, virality.

我想人们更喜欢的是口碑传播，如果这对搜索引擎优化不起作用，如果这对付费搜索引擎起作用，也许只是为了向听众简化它，那么你可以追求病毒式传播并对其进行投资，并认为这可行，因为每个创始人都会说，“是的，病毒式传播。

That's how I'm going to grow." Yeah.

这就是我要成长的方式。”是的。

Yuriy Timen: Yeah.

尤里·泰门：是的。

Honestly, the first thing you look for is that, is there inherent product network effects?

老实说，您首先要寻找的是，是否存在固有的产品网络效应？

It's something that it's either there, or isn't from inception from my experience.

根据我的经验，它要么就存在，要么从一开始就不存在。

I think it's very difficult to manufacture.

我认为制造起来非常困难。

You'd only study when...

你只会在什么时候学习...

It's very hard to manufacture product network effects if they aren't there from the get go.

如果产品网络效应从一开始就不存在，那么就很难制造产品网络效应。

So Airbnb from your days, obviously marketplace very strong product network effect dynamics.

所以从你的时代起，Airbnb 就明显是一个非常强大的产品网络效应动态市场。

You think of collaboration tools, Airtable, monday.com, Whimsical, whom we both know very strong inherent product network effects, contrast that with a company like Grammarly.

你会想到协作工具、Airtable、monday.com、Whimsical，我们都知道它们具有非常强大的固有产品网络效应，与 Grammarly 这样的公司形成鲜明对比。

It just wasn't there.

它只是不在那里。

It's not an inherently multiplayer task constructed communication.

这不是一个本质上由多人任务构建的通信。

And so you can try to engineer that, but from my experience, it is an uphill battle.

所以你可以尝试设计它，但根据我的经验，这是一场艰苦的战斗。

So if you have inherent product network effects, that's when I think layering on referral loops and viral loops.

因此，如果您具有固有的产品网络效应，那么我就会考虑在推荐循环和病毒循环上进行分层。

You think about what Dropbox has done around file sharing.

您想一下 Dropbox 在文件共享方面所做的事情。

That's an iconic example.

这是一个标志性的例子。

Yuriy Timen: Then it's really powerful.

Yuriy Timen：那么它真的很强大。

I think that there is another case where referral and viral loops could work even when there are inherent network effects.

我认为还有另一种情况，即使存在固有的网络效应，推荐和病毒循环也可以发挥作用。

If you have a really beloved product, beloved brand.

如果你有一个真正心爱的产品、心爱的品牌。

There's a company out of Australia that I have opportunity to invest it called Laika.

我有机会投资一家澳大利亚公司，名叫莱卡（Laika）。

They do fresh dog food subscriptions and incredibly beloved brand, a premium product.

他们订阅新鲜的狗粮和令人难以置信的受人喜爱的品牌，这是一种优质产品。

And so they're able to lean into a give one, get one referrals, even though there isn't inherent product network effects, they're still able to generate meaningful results off of the, and incentivize referring program.

因此，他们能够依靠一个给予，获得一个推荐，即使没有固有的产品网络效应，他们仍然能够从推荐计划中产生有意义的结果，并激励推荐计划。

Lenny: When you talk about network effects, what does that mean to you?

莱尼：当您谈论网络效应时，这对您意味着什么？

How would you define that briefly?

您如何简单地定义这一点？

Yuriy Timen: Yeah, to me, I mean, honestly I define it I think probably a pretty quintessential way, which is for every individual user, the utility that they derive from the product increases the more users there are on the platform.

Yuriy Timen：是的，对我来说，我的意思是，老实说，我定义了它，我认为这可能是一种非常典型的方式，对于每个单独的用户来说，他们从产品中获得的效用随着平台上的用户数量的增加而增加。

The expanded version of that is in a case of marketplaces.

其扩展版本是在市场的情况下。

It may not be the bore users broadly speaking, but the more users in the markets that you care about, in the case of collaboration tools, it's not the more users in abstract terms.

从广义上讲，这可能不是无聊的用户，但你关心的市场中的用户越多，就协作工具而言，抽象意义上的用户并不是越多。

It's the more users within your team, the more users within your company, right?

你的团队中的用户越多，你公司中的用户就越多，对吗？

That correlates with your kind of the rise in your utility curve.

这与你的效用曲线上升的类型相关。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

So if you have network effects, AKA if the product becomes more useful with more people or there's amazing word of mouth already, or there's collaboration, probably a good sign that you could lean into virality or maybe referrals.

因此，如果你有网络效应，也就是说，如果产品对更多人来说变得更有用，或者已经有令人惊叹的口碑，或者有合作，这可能是一个好迹象，表明你可以倾向于病毒式传播或推荐。

What about SEO?

搜索引擎优化怎么样？

Yuriy Timen: Oh, that's a good one.

Yuriy Timen：噢，那是一件好事。

It's a very timely question because I actually in a process of helping a couple of my companies figure out if it's the right time to invest in SEO.

这是一个非常及时的问题，因为我实际上正在帮助我的几家公司确定现在是否是投资 SEO 的正确时机。

So I've been sort of a forefront of taking exploratory meetings with agencies and SEO consultants and things like that.

因此，我一直是与代理机构和 SEO 顾问等进行探索性会议的最前沿。

I mean, I would say the first thing to figure...

我的意思是，我想说的第一件事是……

I mean, there are a couple of pillars, because obviously we all know that SEO has a different return horizon than say paid acquisition.

我的意思是，有几个支柱，因为显然我们都知道 SEO 的回报范围与付费获取不同。

It's longer out.

出来的时间更长了

It's maybe six months is the earliest you can see results.

最快可能需要六个月才能看到结果。

Even then it's going to be a small trickle that compounds over time, if you're successful or you may spend three to six months leaning into an SEO strategy and then realize that it's not going to back out typically at least in historically a company probably isn't like Series B before it starts feeling like it passed a luxury of making these kind of medium to long term investments.

即便如此，如果你成功了，或者你可能会花三到六个月的时间来研究 SEO 策略，然后意识到它通常不会退出，至少在历史上，一家公司可能不像 B 轮那样，在它开始感觉自己已经放弃了进行此类中长期投资的奢侈时，它也会随着时间的推移而复合。

Yuriy Timen: But I think that's shifting right now, but that's maybe a topic for later or even for another bot but a lot of the strategies that I think we're reserved for Series B are trickling down to Series A companies because they have to diversify way for pay, but maybe more on that later.

Yuriy Timen：但我认为这种情况现在正在发生变化，但这可能是以后的话题，甚至是另一个机器人的话题，但我认为我们为 B 轮保留的很多策略正在慢慢渗透到 A 轮公司，因为他们必须实现薪酬方式多样化，但也许稍后会更多。

So I think with SEO, it's like the first pillar I would say is, do you have a unique angle when you take a look at the SEO landscape today, you look at editorial, the landscape, which is to how to searches and who are the players there and what kind of information is being offered?

所以我认为对于 SEO，我想说的第一个支柱是，当你看今天的 SEO 景观时，你看看社论、景观，即如何搜索、那里的玩家是谁以及提供什么样的信息？

Do you have something unique to contribute to that conversation?

您有什么独特的东西可以为这次对话做出贡献吗？

Another thing if I have to do an audit checklist, another thing is, do you have a unique programmatic angle, right?

另一件事是，如果我必须做审核清单，另一件事是，您是否有独特的编程角度，对吧？

For instance, Canva did dealt with templates.

例如，Canva 确实处理过模板。

Who else is programmatic?

还有谁是程序化的？

Yuriy Timen: CWELL, Redfit, obviously all the real estate, right?

Yuriy Timen：CWELL、Redfit，显然都是房地产，对吧？

That's really strong-

实在是太强了——

Yuriy Timen: Saint Pier, right.

Yuriy Timen：圣皮尔，右。

So do you have a programmatic angle and then understanding the competitive landscape or the other one is, do you have a unique data angle?

那么，您是否有一个程序化的角度，然后了解竞争格局，或者另一个是，您是否有独特的数据角度？

So for instance, a company I work with called Monarch Money, which is in the personal finance management space.

举例来说，我工作的一家名为 Monarch Money 的公司，该公司从事个人财务管理领域。

Think of it as a new and improved version of MIT.

将其视为麻省理工学院的新改进版本。

There is a lot of users are connecting accounts and you have a sense percenting patterns and things like that.

有很多用户正在连接帐户，您可以感觉到百分比模式之类的事情。

Clearly there is a unique data, and so it's a question of, can you turn it into some kind of valuable organic search experience?

显然有一个独特的数据，所以问题是，你能把它变成某种有价值的有机搜索体验吗？

Yuriy Timen: I won't go into too much detail in terms of what we're thinking of there, but that's another checkbox.

Yuriy Timen：我不会详细介绍我们的想法，但这是另一个复选框。

If you can check two of those three boxes as a back of the envelope framework, you may be in good shape.

如果您可以检查这三个框中的两个作为信封框架的背面，那么您可能处于良好状态。

And then it's a question of like, "How can you lower the cost of experimentation SEO as much as possible?" I think as a rule of thumb, if you can time box it to three months, what can I do at the end of three months?

然后是这样的问题：“如何才能尽可能降低 SEO 实验成本？”我认为根据经验，如果你可以将其限制为三个月，那么三个月结束时我可以做什么？

Is this likely to work or not?

这可能有效吗？

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

Couple follow up questions.

夫妻俩跟进问题。

Lenny: One is SEO feels like this dark art where you need some SEO wizard to come help you through this.

Lenny：其中之一就是 SEO 感觉像是一种黑暗艺术，你需要一些 SEO 向导来帮助你完成这个任务。

Lenny: Do you suggest companies find somebody or work with an agency or something else?

莱尼：您是否建议公司找人或与代理机构或其他机构合作？

What's your general feeling on SEO versus some other route?

与其他路线相比，您对 SEO 的总体感觉如何？

Yuriy Timen: I think SEO is pretty specialized skill set.

Yuriy Timen：我认为 SEO 是非常专业的技能。

There are some basic principles that always hold like best content wins and don't do shady back linking and make sure that you're on page.

有一些基本原则始终坚持，比如最好的内容获胜，不要做可疑的反向链接，并确保您在页面上。

SEO is good and your pages are easily crawl, but I feel like everybody knows that.

SEO 很好，你的页面很容易被抓取，但我觉得每个人都知道这一点。

And where the winners are determined are between the lines.

而获胜者的确定就在字里行间。

Better than a sports' analogy?

比体育类比更好？

Maybe you can.

也许你可以。

Lenny: Between the lines.

莱尼：字里行间。

I don't know what that comes from.

我不知道那是从何而来。

Yuriy Timen: But anyway, what I mean is that there is a lot of more nuance, SEO developments and angles, where I think is where the opportunity really lies to differentiate yourself.

Yuriy Timen：但无论如何，我的意思是，还有很多细微差别、SEO 发展和角度，我认为这才是真正让自己脱颖而出的机会所在。

And that requires keeping up with the latest algorithm changes.

这需要跟上最新的算法变化。

It's very hard to do that unless you are specializing in the art where the black magic of SEO, and so that's why I think getting an outside resource at least for an audit is really helpful.

除非你专门研究 SEO 的黑魔法，否则很难做到这一点，所以这就是为什么我认为获得外部资源至少用于审核确实很有帮助。

Now, whether it's a boutique agency or a solo consultant, I think that's more circumstantial, but I've found at least with the companies that I've worked with, if we wanted to quickly vet the SEO opportunity, I can do it in a very kind of amateur, at an amateur level.

现在，无论是精品代理机构还是独立顾问，我认为这都更为具体，但我发现至少在与我合作过的公司中，如果我们想快速审查 SEO 机会，我可以以一种非常业余的方式、业余的水平来做到这一点。

Yuriy Timen: Plug things into similar web and try to figure out the right option is there, but you can get these relatively inexpensive audits done from companies that you can then choose.

Yuriy Timen：将东西插入类似的网络并尝试找出正确的选项，但是您可以从您可以选择的公司那里完成这些相对便宜的审核。

Do I hire them to help with my SEO or not?

我是否雇用他们来帮助我进行 SEO？

But I think that audit is usually a very good use of time because they have templates.

但我认为审核通常是一种很好的时间利用方式，因为他们有模板。

So what they can turn around for five to 10K would take you many, many human hours to try to pull together yourself.

因此，他们能扭转 5 到 10K 的局面将需要你花很多很多时间来尝试自己振作起来。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

Are there agencies that you want to name that people can go check out or would you prefer just to keep it from having-

是否有您想要命名的机构，以便人们可以去查看，或者您希望只是阻止它-

Yuriy Timen: I think one of the most innovative, disciplined first principles SEO thinkers and I have met is Ethan Smith from Graphite.

Yuriy Timen：我认为我所见过的最具创新性、最有纪律的 SEO 思想家之一是来自 Graphite 的 Ethan Smith。

It's not for everyone.

它并不适合所有人。

It's a pretty high end SEO shell.

这是一个相当高端的 SEO shell。

So I wouldn't send the Series a company there, but Ethan also produces a lot of resources and what they've been focusing on at Graphite lately has been actually automating a lot of their work and turning it into SAS.

所以我不会把系列公司派到那里，但 Ethan 也生产了大量资源，他们最近在 Graphite 关注的实际上是自动化他们的很多工作并将其转变为 SAS。

So I don't know how far along they are, but you could probably already get into some of the betas from the tools that they're offering.

所以我不知道他们已经走了多远，但您可能已经从他们提供的工具中进入了一些测试版。

Lenny: Sweet.

莱尼：甜甜的。

I'm going to try to get Ethan on this podcast.

我会尝试让伊森加入这个播客。

Lenny: I've seen his stuff and it's awesome.

莱尼：我看过他的作品，非常棒。

Yuriy Timen: Yeah.

尤里·泰门：是的。

He is a math scientist when it comes to SEO.

在 SEO 方面，他是一位数学科学家。

Yeah.

是的。

Lenny: We need those.

莱尼：我们需要那些。

We need math scientist on ship.

我们需要船上的数学科学家。

Lenny: Okay.

莱尼：好的。

So we've talked about virality talked about SEO, paid.

我们讨论了病毒式营销、SEO、付费。

Imagine that's pretty straightforward if your LTV are high enough and you can pay back ads on those, then that's where you go.

想象一下，如果您的 LTV 足够高并且您可以支付这些广告的费用，那么这就是您要做的事情。

Imagine everyone can try it.

想象一下每个人都可以尝试一下。

Doesn't work for everyone.

并不适合所有人。

What if yeah, anything you want to add there?

如果是的，您想在那里添加什么内容怎么办？

Yuriy Timen: I mean, there's a lot.

Yuriy Timen：我的意思是，有很多。

There's a lot.

有很多。

I mean, I don't know how deep you want to go down the paid rabbit hole because it's changing.

我的意思是，我不知道你想在付费兔子洞里走多深，因为它正在发生变化。

It's probably the most affected growth bucket in light of the market turbulence, the venture sentiment shifting.

鉴于市场动荡和风险投资情绪的转变，这可能是受影响最严重的增长桶。

I've seen paying acquisition strategies at budgets.

我见过按预算支付收购策略的情况。

They are at the brunt of that fallout.

他们是首当其冲的受害者。

And so the question is where do you want to go there?

所以问题是你想去哪里？

Lenny: Yeah.

莱尼：是的。

That's a really good topic.

这真是一个好话题。

I was saving that for later, but let's chat it better right now.

我本来打算稍后再谈，但现在我们还是好好聊聊吧。

Lenny: I imagine part of this is Apple's tracking changes too.

莱尼：我想这也是苹果跟踪变化的一部分。

Lenny: So I guess my big question is paid still lucrative and a good path for many companies is like 50% of the time less effective.

Lenny：所以我想我的大问题是薪酬仍然有利可图，对于许多公司来说，一条好的道路在 50% 的时间里效率较低。

How do you see that shifting recently?

您如何看待最近这种转变？

And how should people think about paid in the consumer subscription startup?

人们应该如何看待消费者订阅初创公司的付费问题？

Yuriy Timen: Well, I think in the short term, let's break it down into phases.

Yuriy Timen：嗯，我认为在短期内，让我们将其分为几个阶段。

I think in the short term paid acquisition and just paid media dollars are contracted and we're seeing it already with Metas advertising revenue, Snaps advertising revenue.

我认为，短期内付费收购和付费媒体资金都会收缩，我们已经在 Metas 广告收入和 Snaps 广告收入中看到了这一点。

There's clearly a global contraction happening to paid media budgets.

显然，全球付费媒体预算正在收缩。

A big part of it is because all of a sudden the definition of efficient acquisition and good payback windows is shifting.

很大一部分原因是，高效收购和良好投资回收期的定义突然发生了变化。

So before for a consumer subscription company, 12 month payback was decent.

因此，之前对于一家消费者订阅公司来说，12 个月的投资回收期是不错的。

Now it's like, you better pay back your paid media in six months or less.

现在就像是，你最好在六个月或更短的时间内偿还你的付费媒体费用。

That's the sentiment.

这就是心情。

Yuriy Timen: So the thought is reaction is like anything that's more than six months we're well board of six months, we're cutting that and so there's that.

Yuriy Timen：所以我们的想法是反应就像任何超过六个月的事情一样，我们很好地控制了六个月，我们正在削减它，所以就是这样。

Then there is just less tolerance for ambiguity and attribution when the sentiment is like, "Let's grow at .

然后，当人们的情绪是“让我们以……成长”时，对模糊性和归因的容忍度就会降低。

Grow at all costs." If you can't attribute things perfectly, that's okay.

不惜一切代价成长。”如果你不能完美地归因事物，那也没关系。

Now it's like, especially with venture back companies, you have to have two plus years of runway, managers burn a lot more diligently now.

现在，尤其是对于风险投资公司来说，你必须有两年多的跑道，经理们现在更加努力地烧钱。

And so whatever you can't attribute to sales sue like, "That shits got to go." I don't know if we can curse on the pod or not.

因此，无论你无法将其归因于销售，你都会起诉，“那该死的东西必须消失。”我不知道我们是否可以诅咒豆荚。

Yuriy Timen: Well, I've been holding back for the last 30 minutes.

Yuriy Timen：嗯，过去 30 分钟我一直在犹豫。

No, I'm kidding.

不，我在开玩笑。

Lenny: We're not kid friendly, but nobody's cursed yet.

莱尼：我们对孩子不友好，但还没有人被诅咒。

So this could be okay.

所以这可能没问题。

So you'll be the first.

所以你会是第一个。

Yuriy Timen: All right.

尤里·泰门：好的。

Way loud.

声音很大。

All right.

好的。

But anyways, yeah.

但无论如何，是的。

So I think there is a short term contraction.

所以我认为短期会出现收缩。

However, that opens up an opportunity for smart kind of attribution investments.

然而，这为明智的归因投资提供了机会。

So you're seeing an emergence of some interesting attribution related attribution for incrementality related products.

因此，您会看到增量相关产品出现了一些有趣的归因相关归因。

A couple that I personally started exploring and looking into, and then you just see a lot more heads of growth, heads of user acquisition, thinking about attribution in building their attribution stacks.

我个人开始探索和研究其中的一些，然后你会看到更多的增长主管、用户获取主管，在构建归因堆栈时考虑归因。

And so I think that once we settle into some kind of new normal, which is going to be a combination of just better attribution stack on average for companies combined with just the level of acceptance, that attribution will never be as good as it maybe once was.

所以我认为，一旦我们进入某种新常态，这将是公司平均更好的归因堆栈与接受程度的结合，这种归因永远不会像以前那样好。

We're going to probably get hit.

我们很可能会被击中。

Come out of that and you'll see paid budgets start making their way back.

走出这一步，你会发现已支付的预算开始回归。

But even right now, during contraction, there are going to be some winners.

但即使是现在，在经济收缩期间，也会有一些赢家。

Yuriy Timen: The companies that had strong cash positions, have strong unit economics, strong paid back periods already like Grammarly, Canva to name two that I know personally.

Yuriy Timen：那些拥有强大现金状况、强劲单位经济效益和强劲回报期的公司，例如 Grammarly、Canva 等我个人认识的两家公司。

A couple of others or many others probably, they're going to be winners because all of a sudden, if previously they were competing with companies who were nowhere as efficient as them, but for whatever reason had the green light to keep spending, now all of those are going to pull back their budgets.

其他几个或许多其他人可能会成为赢家，因为突然间，如果他们之前与效率不如他们的公司竞争，但无论出于何种原因获得了继续支出的绿灯，现在所有这些公司都将撤回预算。

And so those that have been disciplined, have the instrumentation to track things better than average.

因此，那些受到纪律处分的人拥有比平均水平更好的工具来跟踪事情。

They're going to benefit from decreased competition on app platforms, decreasing CPMs, et cetera.

他们将从应用平台竞争的减少、每千次展示费用的降低等中受益。

So they're going to do winners for sure.

所以他们肯定会成为赢家。

Lenny: Wow.

莱尼：哇。

Haven't heard this perspective.

没听说过这个观点。

It's so interesting that the fact that it's gotten harder, it's creating new opportunities for companies to do it better and more intelligently.

有趣的是，事实上，它变得越来越难，它为公司创造了新的机会，让他们做得更好、更聪明。

You said you mentioned a couple tools products that you found to be potentially helpful in this.

您说您提到了一些您发现可能对此有所帮助的工具产品。

Is there anything you could mention there?

您有什么可以提到的吗？

Yuriy Timen: Yeah.

尤里·泰门：是的。

Yeah.

是的。

I mentioned a couple that I've kind of connected with in the last couple of months.

我提到了过去几个月里与我有联系的一对夫妇。

So first of all, Media Mix Modeling is making a comeback, which is something that kind of got popularized in the math meant kind of advertising era of the fifties, pre-digital, and that's how that was the piece of the methodology.

首先，媒体混合建模正在卷土重来，这是在五十年代的数学意味着广告时代、数字化之前普及的东西，这就是方法论的一部分。

I can't speak of the specifics there.

我不能谈论那里的具体情况。

The science is a little bit out of depth there, but it was basically a way to use some data to determine a budget allocation across channels at the time was probably newspapers and billboards, et etcetera.

这方面的科学有点不深入，但它基本上是一种使用一些数据来确定跨渠道预算分配的方法，当时可能是报纸和广告牌等。

Yuriy Timen: It was leveraging data to some extent.

Yuriy Timen：它在某种程度上利用了数据。

You would were doing it maybe on a quarterly basis.

您可能会按季度进行一次。

And then you would only update it every quarter.

然后你只需每个季度更新一次。

There was no way with media mix modeling.

媒体混合建模是没有办法的。

There was no way to adjust budget in quarter because you weren't getting the data feedback loop that frequently.

无法按季度调整预算，因为您没有那么频繁地获得数据反馈循环。

But media mix modeling is now making a comeback because there are so many offline channels that are part of folks channel portfolio today and that plus a lot of the online channels are becoming less trackable like Meta for instance, with the iOS 14 shift.

但媒体混合建模现在正在卷土重来，因为当今大众渠道组合中有很多离线渠道，而且随着 iOS 14 的转变，许多在线渠道变得越来越难以追踪，例如 Meta。

And so Media Mix Modeling is going to comeback and the company that's leading the charge of bringing the Media Mix Modeling methodology of the traditional advertising era and ushering it into the digital world is a company called the Recast.

因此，媒体混合建模将卷土重来，而负责将传统广告时代的媒体混合建模方法引入数字世界的公司是一家名为 Recast 的公司。

Yuriy Timen: Recast.

尤里·泰门：重铸。

Yeah.

是的。

So I've heard really good things.

所以我听到了非常好的事情。

I haven't tried them with any of my companies yet, but there are a couple that are on the horizon hopefully.

我还没有在我的任何公司中尝试过这些方法，但希望有一些即将出现。

Lenny: Double click there for a moment.

莱尼：双击那里一会儿。

Is that still useful if you're not doing TV and other forms of advertising?

如果您不做电视和其他形式的广告，这还有用吗？

Yuriy Timen: Yeah, I think it's useful if you're spending a considerable amount, what's considerable, I'd say worth of a hundred thousand a month update media.

Yuriy Timen：是的，我认为如果您花费相当多的费用，我认为每月更新媒体的费用相当可观，那么它很有用。

And if you have some level of channel complexity, so you're not just like a Google Go or a Facebook, but maybe you're on three plus the channels.

如果你有一定程度的渠道复杂性，那么你就不仅仅是像 Google Go 或 Facebook，但也许你在三个以上的渠道上。

Then I think it still makes sense.

那我觉得还是有道理的。

The other ones in the incremental space, they have very different methodologists actually, because at end of the day, this might be obvious to folks, but maybe some will find value.

增量空间中的其他人实际上有非常不同的方法学家，因为最终，这对人们来说可能是显而易见的，但也许有些人会发现价值。

Yuriy Timen: Click based attribution or the digital attribution were all fawning over cookie based and click based, a real parameter based attribution.

Yuriy Timen：基于点击的归因或数字归因都奉承基于 cookie 和基于点击的真实参数归因。

It never demonstrated a causal relationship between our media spend and business results.

它从未证明我们的媒体支出与业务成果之间存在因果关系。

It was only good for correlative insights.

它只对相关见解有好处。

And the only way to determine causality is through real controlled experiments, randomized control experiments through incrementality testing, which is typically really hard to do cleanly and also companies have always been often wary about doing it because you have to turn off a channel potentially in a key demo and you're like, "Yeah." The benefit is to learning of whether it's actually incremental, but the cost or the sales that I will lose today.

确定因果关系的唯一方法是通过真正的对照实验，通过增量测试进行随机对照实验，这通常很难干净利落地完成，而且公司一直对此持谨慎态度，因为你必须在关键演示中关闭潜在的通道，然后你就会说，“是的。”这样做的好处是了解它是否实际上是增量的，但我今天将损失成本或销售额。

But the only way to really know how effective your paid media is through ongoing incrementality testing.

但真正了解付费媒体效果的唯一方法是通过持续的增量测试。

So there are two companies that are addressing that.

有两家公司正在解决这个问题。

Two that I'm excited about.

有两个让我很兴奋。

One is measured, can be found, measured.call, amazing domain name.

一是实测，可查，measured.call，神奇的域名。

Lenny: Amazing domain name, go with that.

Lenny：很棒的域名，就用吧。

Yuriy Timen: And then the other one is incremental, but incremental-

Yuriy Timen：然后另一个是渐进的，但是渐进的-

Yuriy Timen: ...

尤里·泰门：……

no vows except the last A between the T and the L.

除了 T 和 L 之间的最后一个 A 之外，没有誓言。

Lenny: Yeah.

莱尼：是的。

I love it.

我喜欢它。

That's great.

那太棒了。

This is what people need.

这就是人们所需要的。

They're just like, "Okay, what do I actually do"?

他们只是想，“好吧，我实际上该怎么做”？

And so the more it's clear what to actually try and how to solve these problems.

因此，实际尝试什么以及如何解决这些问题就越清楚。

The more people can actually make change.

越多的人能够真正做出改变。

I had a couple questions here that I wanted to follow up on.

我有几个问题想要跟进。

One is founders might be listening to this and they're like, "Amazing.

一是创始人可能会听到这个，他们会说，“太棒了。

Okay, we're going to grow.

好吧，我们都会成长。

There's three ways to grow.

成长有三种方式。

Let's do it all.

让我们全部完成吧。

Get someone on SEO to get Jane on paid.

找 SEO 方面的人来让 Jane 获得报酬。

Let's get Fred on virality."

让我们让弗雷德走上病毒之路。”

Lenny: So in your experience, is it smart to focus on one and then expand down the road or try them all see which one works best?

莱尼：那么根据您的经验，专注于一个然后继续扩展或者尝试所有这些看看哪一个效果最好是明智的吗？

How do you advise companies think about these options?

您如何建议公司考虑这些选择？

Yuriy Timen: I would say focus paired with rapid iterations, right?

Yuriy Timen：我会说专注与快速迭代相结合，对吗？

With limited resources.

资源有限。

Naturally you have to practice some form of essentialism and ruthless prioritization, but at the same time, the clock is always ticking.

当然，你必须实践某种形式的本质主义和无情的优先顺序，但与此同时，时间总是在滴答作响。

You can not burn.

你不能燃烧。

That there is a finite number of tries that you have at finding what works, right?

为了找到有效的方法，你的尝试次数是有限的，对吗？

What's going to help you unlock the next level of growth, get to the next funding round, extend your runway.

什么将帮助您解锁下一个增长水平，进入下一轮融资，扩展您的跑道。

And so I think either one taking to an extreme focus or trying multiple things is not a good thing.

所以我认为要么过于专注，要么尝试多种事情都不是一件好事。

And just in case, it's not obvious if you focus on one thing and it ends up being the wrong thing, you've wasted really valuable time and now you have so much less time left to find something that does work.

为了以防万一，如果你专注于一件事而最终发现它是错误的事情，那么你已经浪费了非常宝贵的时间，现在你剩下的时间少了很多，可以找到有用的东西。

Spreading yourself very thin oftentimes in the early stage companies, it's one person who's in charge of all of growth, but they also have some other kind of responsibilities like maybe ops and customer success.

在早期阶段的公司中，通常会分散自己的精力，只有一个人负责所有的增长，但他们也有其他一些责任，比如运营和客户成功。

Yuriy Timen: If you get them to try five different things, they may not try them anyone individually fully enough, because I like to say the only thing that's worse than a channel or a tactic that you tried not working.

Yuriy Timen：如果你让他们尝试五种不同的事情，他们可能不会对任何人进行足够充分的单独尝试，因为我想说唯一比你尝试过的渠道或策略不起作用更糟糕的事情。

The only thing that's worse now is when you didn't give it the appropriate shot and you pretty much surely or erroneously concluded that it doesn't work.

现在唯一更糟糕的是，当你没有给它适当的机会时，你几乎肯定或错误地得出了它不起作用的结论。

And it's remarkable how often you find that to be the case when I talk to companies, "Oh, YouTube, we tried it doesn't work." I'm like, "Okay, can I see what you've tried?" And then you look at it and you're like, "Oh, this thing was not designed to even have a shot at working from the get go." So to answer your question, I think it's focus with some guard rails so that you know exactly when it's time to move on to the next thing.

值得注意的是，当我与公司交谈时，你经常会发现这种情况，“哦，YouTube，我们尝试过，但行不通。”我想，“好吧，我可以看看你尝试了什么吗？”然后你看着它，你会想，“哦，这个东西的设计目的甚至不是从一开始就可以工作。”因此，为了回答你的问题，我认为重点是一些护栏，以便你确切地知道何时该继续进行下一件事。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Eppo.

Lenny：这一集是 Eppo 为您带来的。

Eppo is a next generation A/B Testing platform built by Airbnb alums for Modern Growth Teams.

Eppo 是由 Airbnb 校友为现代增长团队打造的下一代 A/B 测试平台。

Companies like Netlify, Contentful, and Cameo rely on Eppo to power their experiments.

Netlify、Contentful 和 Cameo 等公司依靠 Eppo 来支持他们的实验。

Wherever you work, running experiments is increasingly essential, but there are no commercial tools that integrate with a modern grow team stack.

无论您在哪里工作，运行实验都变得越来越重要，但是没有可以与现代种植团队堆栈集成的商业工具。

This leads to waste of time building internal tools or trying to run your experiments through a clunky marketing tool.

这会导致浪费时间构建内部工具或尝试通过笨重的营销工具进行实验。

Lenny: When I was at Airbnb, one of the things that I love about our experimentation platform was being able to easily slice results by device, by country, and by user stage.

Lenny：当我在 Airbnb 时，我喜欢我们的实验平台的一件事是能够轻松地按设备、国家和用户阶段划分结果。

Eppo does all that and more.

Eppo 做到了这一切，甚至更多。

Delivering results quickly, avoiding annoying prolonged analytics cycles and helping you easily get to the root cause of any issue you discover.

快速提供结果，避免恼人的长时间分析周期，并帮助您轻松找到所发现问题的根本原因。

Eppo lets you go beyond basic click-through metrics and instead you turn north star metrics like activation, retention, subscriptions and payments.

Eppo 让您超越基本的点击率指标，而是转向北极星指标，例如激活、保留、订阅和付款。

Eppo supports test on the front end, the back end, email marketing and even machine learning clients.

Eppo支持前端、后端、电子邮件营销甚至机器学习客户端的测试。

Check out Eppo at geteppo.com.

请访问 geteppo.com 查看 Eppo。

Geteppo.com and 10X your experiment velocity.

Geteppo.com 和 10 倍的实验速度。

Lenny: This might be too hard to answer in a chat like this, but do you have any guidance for how to know when you've gone far enough?

莱尼：在这样的聊天中这个问题可能很难回答，但是你有什么指导可以告诉你如何知道你已经走得足够远了吗？

I imagine there's a lot nuance and detail there.

我想那里有很多细微差别和细节。

Is there anything that you could share?

有什么可以分享的吗？

Yuriy Timen: Love the question.

Yuriy Timen：喜欢这个问题。

It's very thought provoking.

非常发人深省。

I think with some tactics and some channels you can fairly objectively create some test guard rails where it's like, if it's YouTube, we know kind of minimum number of impressions that you got to get.

我认为通过一些策略和一些渠道，你可以相当客观地创建一些测试护栏，就像，如果是 YouTube，我们知道你必须获得的最低展示次数。

Try two to three creative angles.

尝试两到三个创意角度。

Here's the click through rates range that you're looking for.

这是您正在寻找的点击率范围。

If you get within these ranges on these KPIs, keep going.

如果您的 KPI 处于这些范围内，请继续。

If you don't, abandon.

如果不这样做，就放弃。

Yuriy Timen: I think that's important to also know that abandonment doesn't mean we will never revisit it again, right?

Yuriy Timen：我认为了解放弃并不意味着我们永远不会再次访问它也很重要，对吧？

It just means that because every time you're evaluating, the concept of sunk cost.

这只是意味着，因为每次评估时，都会有沉没成本的概念。

So you have these periodic, I think periods of reevaluation where it's like, "Okay, did we try enough?

所以你有这些周期性的，我认为重新评估的时期，就像是，“好吧，我们尝试得足够多吗？

Is this more art than science frankly." It's like, "What's the incremental lift for us as a team to try to experiment with the next phase of this channel or this tactic?

坦白说，这更像是艺术而不是科学吗？”就像，“作为一个团队，尝试尝试这个渠道或这个策略的下一阶段，增量提升是多少？

What is the opportunity cost of that?

其机会成本是多少？

What are the other high profile things that we could be trying?" You were right and save this topic too hard to answer in this format, but I would break things down maybe into two types.

我们还可以尝试哪些其他引人注目的事情？”你是对的，这个话题很难以这种形式回答，但我会把事情分成两种类型。

There are some channels or tactics where you can objectively figure out som guard rails for when it's showing promise or not, because you can pull benchmarks on good click through rates and things like that.

在某些渠道或策略中，您可以客观地找出一些护栏，以判断其是否有希望，因为您可以根据良好的点击率等制定基准。

Then there are other tactics where you just have to exercise more judgment outside of benchmarks.

还有其他策略，您只需在基准之外进行更多判断。

Lenny: Yeah.

莱尼：是的。

Yeah.

是的。

That was actually really valuable and very challenging question to try to summarize quickly so thank you.

这实际上是非常有价值且非常具有挑战性的问题，需要快速总结，所以谢谢。

One more quick question along these lines.

沿着这个思路，还有一个简单的问题。

So you talked about these three broad ways companies grow.

您谈到了公司发展的三种主要方式。

Oftentimes a couple of them work, something I've seen and I'm curious if you agree, usually one is like 80% of your growth and then you layer on a couple more to optimize.

通常其中有几个是有效的，这是我见过的，我很好奇你是否同意，通常其中一个大约占你增长的 80%，然后你再叠加几个来优化。

Is that what you see?

你看到的是这样的吗？

Yuriy Timen: Yes.

尤里·泰门：是的。

I think companies that we know and admire and reference in case studies or in podcast, such as this one.

我认为我们在案例研究或播客中了解、钦佩和参考的公司，比如这家公司。

From the outside looking in, you oftentimes assume that it's a highly diversified growth engine.

从外部看，你常常会认为这是一个高度多元化的增长引擎。

I have to say it's often not the case.

我不得不说，事实往往并非如此。

Definitely the 80/20 applies.

80/20 绝对适用。

There is a kind of strategy that's working overwhelmingly well, and there is a scramble internally to minimize reliance on that one thing.

有一种策略非常有效，并且内部存在一种争用，以尽量减少对这一事物的依赖。

And on the discover slash on the walk, the next step function, the next growth horizon.

并在行走中发现斜线、下一步功能、下一个增长视野。

In the case of Grammarly, it was performance marketing kind of over reliance on performance marketing during part of the company's life cycle.

就 Grammarly 而言，在公司生命周期的一部分中，绩效营销有点过度依赖绩效营销。

And so it was like, "Okay, this thing is working." It's efficient so you don't want to stop pouring fire on it, but you're also thinking months and years ahead, what kind of risk does it open you up to?

所以就像是，“好吧，这东西正在工作。”它非常高效，因此您不想停止对其进行攻击，但您也会在未来数月甚至数年中思考，它会给您带来什么样的风险？

Yuriy Timen: And so there is a scramble to fight and at Grammarly, it's been successful there.

Yuriy Timen：所以有一场争夺战，在 Grammarly，它在那里取得了成功。

With Canva, it was the SEO angle.

对于 Canva，这是 SEO 角度。

So for them, that was working really well, which is more defensible than paid.

所以对他们来说，这确实很有效，这比付费更有道理。

That's sort of long tail programmatic SEO angle, but look, you're always susceptible to Google algorithm updates and so how do you derisk yourself from that?

这是一种长尾程序化 SEO 角度，但是你看，你总是容易受到 Google 算法更新的影响，那么你如何避免这种风险呢？

But to your point, yes.

但就你的观点而言，是的。

And I think that surprising thing to people probably is that it's also the case with some later stage companies.

我认为对人们来说令人惊讶的事情可能是一些后期公司的情况也是如此。

It's not just early stage companies that are kind of one trick pulleys.

不仅仅是早期阶段的公司是一种滑轮。

Sometimes it's later stage companies as well.

有时也是处于后期阶段的公司。

Lenny: This makes me think about is there's kind of these three phases to growth.

莱尼：这让我想到成长分为这三个阶段。

There's the kickstart phase where you're just doing a bunch of stuff, trying to get things moving.

在启动阶段，你只是做一堆事情，试图让事情进展顺利。

Then there's that you discover your first main growth engine and then there's layer on additional engines because you want to diversify.

然后你会发现你的第一个主要增长引擎，然后因为你想要多元化，所以还有其他引擎层。

Yuriy Timen: Yep.

尤里·泰门：是的。

And one interesting, what I believe is an interesting period and a lot of it is gut feel, right?

有趣的是，我认为这是一个有趣的时期，其中很多都是直觉，对吧？

And I try to direct companies.

我尝试指导公司。

I encounter sometimes early stage companies is when one thing is working well and they're already worried about over reliance and they're starting to talk about diversification and I come in all the times and I see showing up in their OKRs.

我有时会遇到早期阶段的公司，当一件事进展顺利时，他们已经担心过度依赖，他们开始谈论多元化，我每次都会进来，我看到他们的 OKR 中出现了这一点。

I come, "No, no. Too early.

我来了，“不，不。太早了。

I'm glad that you're such a forward thinker.

我很高兴你是一个如此有远见的思想家。

Put all of your energy.

投入你所有的精力。

Sure, this one tactic is accounting for say 80 plus percent of your new user acquisition, but your user acquisition is still small.

当然，这一策略占新用户获取量的 80% 以上，但您获取的用户量仍然很小。

So don't get distracted with diversification.

因此，不要因多元化而分心。

We'll get there.

我们会到达那里。

Lean more into this, hit this growth rates, stand this up.

更加关注这一点，达到这个增长率，坚持下去。

Build this into a real strategic advantages thing that's working."

将其打造成真正有效的战略优势。”

Yuriy Timen: So I actually have to talk them out, focusing on diversification too early.

Yuriy Timen：所以我实际上必须把他们说出来，过早地关注多元化。

Contrast that with some later stage companies for who are...

与一些处于后期阶段的公司相比，他们...

At scale, I know 50 plus million ARR, 90 plus percent reliant on a single acquisition channel, which just mire with risk and diversification is a blind spot for them.

从规模上看，我知道有 50 多万的 ARR，其中 90% 以上依赖于单一的收购渠道，而这种渠道充满风险，而多元化是他们的盲点。

And then with those, I have to be like, "Hey y'all.

然后对于这些，我必须说，“嘿你们大家。

Here's the risk that you're carrying.

这是您所承担的风险。

Let's start carving out bandwidth resources to try to go and explore these other channels with tactics."

让我们开始开辟带宽资源，尝试通过策略探索这些其他渠道。”

Lenny: That's such an important point.

莱尼：这是非常重要的一点。

It reminds me Casey has this hilarious line that he uses that the money's always in the banana stand or there's always more money in the banana stand from development.

这让我想起凯西有一句搞笑的话，他用的就是钱总是在香蕉摊上，或者香蕉摊上的开发总是有更多的钱。

That basically your growth is probably going to come from the same place it's already come from.

基本上你的成长可能会来自它已经来自的同一个地方。

Lenny: And that you shouldn't take that for granted.

莱尼：你不应该认为这是理所当然的。

And you should put most of your efforts into continuing to optimize that versus being distracted by, "Oh, let's do SEO now."

你应该把大部分精力放在继续优化上，而不是被“哦，我们现在就做 SEO”分散注意力。

Lenny: So you mentioned at this point about how later stage growth strategies are starting to move earlier into growth strategy planning.

莱尼：所以您此时提到了后期增长战略如何开始提前进入增长战略规划。

I'd love to hear more on that.

我很想听到更多相关信息。

Yuriy Timen: Yeah.

尤里·泰门：是的。

Let me expand on that in the world that we lived in last 18 months, or let's say up until say three to five months ago.

让我详细阐述一下我们过去 18 个月（或者说三到五个月前）所生活的世界。

We were living in a world where funding was abundant and plentiful, startups were conditions to think that they could raise twice a year.

我们生活在一个资金充足的世界，初创公司有条件认为他们可以每年筹集两次资金。

Valuations were quite toppling within a year.

一年内估值大幅下跌。

You raise in January and then you raise in November and your valuation five X.

你在一月份筹集资金，然后在十一月份筹集资金，你的估值是五倍。

And so companies were coming off of these ridiculous Series As of 15 to 25 million dollar As and they were like, "We got to grow as quickly as possible.

因此，公司在完成这些荒谬的 15 至 2500 万美元 A 轮融资后，他们会说：“我们必须尽快成长。

What can we activate to give us immediate return?" And the answer is almost always paid.

我们可以激活什么来立即获得回报？”而答案几乎总是付费的。

That one going to give you, especially if you're think you want to go back to raising less than 12 months later, that forces you to focus on very kind of short term tactics, short payoff tactics.

这会给你带来好处，特别是如果你认为你想在不到 12 个月后重新筹集资金，这会迫使你专注于短期策略、短期回报策略。

Yuriy Timen: And so things that SEO, there was no room to think about that for early stage companies.

Yuriy Timen：对于早期阶段的公司来说，SEO 是没有空间去考虑的。

Because payoff is going to come maybe in 12 months in terms of meaningful payoff.

因为就有意义的回报而言，回报可能会在 12 个月内到来。

We care about getting to the next round and maximizing our valuation between now and then.

我们关心的是进入下一轮并从现在到那时最大化我们的估值。

SEO is for the grown up companies.

SEO适合成熟的公司。

When we're that we could think about it.

当我们这样的时候，我们可以考虑一下。

And they were getting the reinforcement from everywhere, from peers, from VCs.

他们从各地、同行、风投那里得到了强化。

It's like it's growth, growth, growth.

就像它的成长，成长，成长。

The growth at any cause.

任何原因的增长。

Yuriy Timen: I think what happened now and we'll see where things stabilized because I think we're still in the midst of a little bit of chaos.

Yuriy Timen：我认为现在发生了什么，我们会看到事情稳定下来，因为我认为我们仍然处于一点混乱之中。

What's happening now is the same VCs are saying, "Okay, it's now survival." You have to extend your runway, minimize burn, high burning if you have to.

现在发生的事情是同样的风险投资家说的：“好吧，现在是生存。”如果有必要的话，你必须延长跑道，尽量减少燃烧，高燃烧。

And all of a sudden growth, whether explicitly or via inference becomes kind of a secondary objective, especially for all these companies that are far from being cash flow positive.

突然之间，增长，无论是明确的还是通过推断，都变成了次要目标，特别是对于所有这些现金流远未达到正值的公司而言。

They have to figure out how to stay alive, but not have to go back to the market and be sort of a victim of shitty terms.

他们必须弄清楚如何生存，但又不必回到市场并成为劣质条款的受害者。

And so I feel this is me extrapolating because venture capitalist didn't actually tell me this, but I'm extrapolating that growth is a secondary objective now.

所以我觉得这是我的推断，因为风险投资家实际上并没有告诉我这一点，但我推断增长现在是次要目标。

It's really focusing on sustainability due to economics, accepting your runway control your destiny, getting to default life.

它真正关注的是经济上的可持续性，接受你的跑道控制你的命运，进入默认生活。

Yuriy Timen: And all of a sudden it's like, "Okay.

Yuriy Timen：突然之间，“好吧。

Plus paid is a lot less attractive now.

现在付费的吸引力已经大不如前了。

Can't afford to be acquiring users at like LTV cap one to one." That's now a no-no. And so SEO is now becoming more attractive because once you got your burn under control and you're thinking, "Okay, we saved all this money by reducing our paid budget.

无法以一对一的 LTV 上限来获取用户。”现在这是一个禁忌。因此，SEO 现在变得越来越有吸引力，因为一旦你控制住了你的烧钱，你就会想，“好吧，我们通过减少付费预算节省了所有这些钱。

We're cutting it entirely.

我们正在彻底削减它。

How do we put some of those resources back to work?" And all of a sudden SEO starts looking a lot more lucrative because it's almost like you took the urgency of grow at any cost in the next six months, you took that out of the equation.

我们如何让其中一些资源重新发挥作用？”突然之间，搜索引擎优化开始看起来更有利可图，因为这几乎就像你在接下来的六个月内不惜一切代价接受了增长的紧迫性，你把它排除在外了。

So now it's like we're in a position where we don't have to go back to raising 12, 18, 24 months.

所以现在我们不需要再重新筹集 12、18、24 个月的资金。

We have 18, 24 months worth of runway and now companies are starting to think more in terms of building more sort of sustainable and defensible growth initiatives.

我们有 18、24 个月的跑道，现在公司开始更多地考虑建立更多类型的可持续和可防御的增长计划。

Lenny: Fascinating.

莱尼：令人着迷。

And as much as people may want to do SEO, like we talked about earlier, doesn't mean they will be able to pull it off because there's these things that have to be approved for your type of company and-

正如我们之前讨论的那样，尽管人们可能想做搜索引擎优化，但这并不意味着他们能够成功，因为有些事情必须针对您的公司类型获得批准，并且-

Lenny: Yeah.

莱尼：是的。

Going back to point you made earlier about paid being a really interesting opportunity right now because it's become harder.

回到你之前提到的观点，付费现在是一个非常有趣的机会，因为它变得更加困难。

Would you say generally you're kind of like pro, tri paid, go paid be in this time because I'm finding a lot of startups are like, "Oh, we can't do paid anymore.

你会说，一般来说，你现在有点像专业人士、三付费、去付费，因为我发现很多初创公司都会说，“哦，我们不能再做付费了。

We're trying all these other approaches to grow." Is that like alpha right now?

我们正在尝试所有其他方法来实现增长。”现在就像阿尔法吗？

Start thinking about paid in a creative way and maybe this is going to be a huge advantage.

开始考虑以创造性的方式付费，也许这将是一个巨大的优势。

Yuriy Timen: So there are two pieces to do paid.

Yuriy Timen：所以有两件事需要付费。

I mean I'm oversimplifying, but I think people will hopefully appreciate the over the oversimplification.

我的意思是我过于简单化了，但我认为人们希望能够欣赏这种过于简单化的做法。

Number one, because it actually drives returns at efficient unit economic, whatever that may mean for your company, your business, your industry.

第一，因为它实际上以有效的单位经济效益推动回报，无论这对您的公司、您的业务、您的行业意味着什么。

The other way to do it is because it's a very quick way to get learnings on messaging and positioning on designs on features.

另一种方法是因为这是一种非常快速的方式来了解消息传递和功能设计定位。

You're thinking of launching et cetera, right?

您正在考虑启动等等，对吗？

It's hard to get faster learnings at scale than A/B testing headlines, Google search or whatever.

很难比 A/B 测试头条新闻、谷歌搜索或其他任何东西更快地大规模学习。

I think the problem that I find is when a company can't have which camper in or where they try to say that they're in both, but really it's like, "Okay, you're funneling a hundred K a month." It's super inefficient and they're not even running experiments to actually get the learnings.

我认为我发现的问题是，当一家公司不能让哪个露营者参加或者他们试图说他们同时参加这两种活动时，但实际上就像是，“好吧，你每个月都在汇集一百个钱。”这是非常低效的，他们甚至没有进行实验来真正获得经验教训。

I can assess the company, even if I don't download the industry as well, based on just seeing their funnel performance, their conversion rates, their retention curves, their LTDs, understanding their churn.

即使我不下载行业，我也可以通过查看他们的漏斗绩效、转化率、保留曲线、LTD 以及了解他们的流失情况来评估该公司。

Yuriy Timen: I could say whether they stand the chance at making paid work as a former strategy.

Yuriy Timen：我可以说他们是否有机会将带薪工作作为以前的策略。

So not just the learning mechanism, not just the kind of a feedback engine, but actually a profitable at delivering acquisition channel or strategy.

因此，不仅仅是学习机制，不仅仅是反馈引擎，而且实际上是在提供获取渠道或策略方面有利可图的。

And if I see that they're not there because the funnel doesn't convert well, the users don't retain the LTDs are too low.

如果我发现他们不在那里，因为漏斗转化得不好，用户不会保留LTD太低。

Then I say, "Hey, it's not time for paid.

然后我说：“嘿，现在还没到付钱的时间。

Maybe car on a little bit of budget if you want to quickly test positioning and things like that.

如果你想快速测试定位之类的东西，也许可以花一点预算来买车。

But it's just too soon." But instead I encounter a company that's really healthy conversion rates, strong LTDs.

但现在还为时过早。”但相反，我遇到了一家转换率非常健康、实力雄厚的有限责任公司。

I do a little bit of competitor research and I can see where the opportunities are, which channels are less saturated than others.

我做了一些竞争对手研究，我可以看到机会在哪里，哪些渠道比其他渠道饱和度较低。

Then I may say, "Hey, it's worth it.

然后我可能会说：“嘿，这是值得的。

It's worth a go." And also just seeing the bigger picture of their financial health, how much runway do you have?

值得一去。”而且只是从更大的角度来看他们的财务状况，你还有多少跑道？

What does your monthly burn look like?

您每月的烧伤情况如何？

Lenny: Right?

莱尼：对吗？

Because paids like cash going out the door and it will return hopefully at some point might be six months might be a year, and so that's a real constraint.

因为支付就像现金一样出去，希望在某个时候会回来，可能是六个月，也可能是一年，所以这是一个真正的限制。

You mentioned onboarding and funnel conversion.

您提到了入职和渠道转换。

Two questions there.

有两个问题。

One, do you have a heuristic of here's good for conversion rates?

第一，您是否有关于这对转化率有好处的启发？

Is there something that you think about there that you could share or is it very case dependent?

您有什么可以分享的想法吗？还是说这取决于具体情况？

Yuriy Timen: I think it's case dependent, but yeah, it is.

Yuriy Timen：我认为这取决于具体情况，但是是的，确实如此。

It's not case dependent.

这不依赖于具体情况。

It's category dependent.

它取决于类别。

So it's not that every company is so case, but it's like, we got to know about what buckets we're talking about.

所以并不是每家公司都是如此，但我们必须知道我们在谈论什么。

I will say that...

我会说...

Let's say we talk about prosumer premium SAS, ala Grammarly, ala Canva, Whimsical, InVideo, things like that.

假设我们谈论专业消费者高级 SAS、ala Grammarly、ala Canva、Whimsical、InVideo 等。

Yeah.

是的。

I can confidently say a healthy website visit to a free user, a free account creation conversion rate.

我可以自信地说，免费用户的健康网站访问、免费帐户创建转化率。

It's probably in that 20 to 35% range.

大概在 20% 到 35% 的范围内。

Lenny: From landing on the site to signing up?

Lenny：从登陆网站到注册？

Yuriy Timen: From landing on site to a free user at scale.

Yuriy Timen：从登陆网站到成为大规模的免费用户。

Earlier stage, you have strong product market fit with some kind of small audience segment that conversion can be 40 to 50%, but as you go broader, it'll probably asymptote at like 25, 30%.

早期阶段，你有很强的产品市场契合度，适合某种小型受众群体，转化率可能为 40% 到 50%，但随着你的业务范围扩大，它可能会渐近到 25%、30% 左右。

What about a conversion if you're premium from a free user to a premium account or paying account?

如果您是高级用户，从免费用户到高级帐户或付费帐户的转换会怎样？

I think anything under 5% is not going to work long term, regardless of how big your top of funnel is.

我认为任何低于 5% 的东西都不会长期有效，无论你的漏斗顶部有多大。

You may get the soft point, but for you to remain an independent company continuously growing pre IPO, I don't think it's going to happen.

你可能会明白这一点，但对于你在首次公开募股前保持一家持续增长的独立公司来说，我认为这不会发生。

It's got to be north of 5%, ideally like more than 7%.

它必须在 5% 以上，最好是 7% 以上。

Lenny: Wow.

莱尼：哇。

Super handy.

超级方便。

On the onboarding point, what's your thoughts on investing in onboarding and that part foe of how often is that a fruitful area of investment?

在入职方面，您对入职投资有何看法，以及反对这一投资领域是否富有成效的部分？

Yuriy Timen: Almost always.

Yuriy Timen：几乎总是如此。

A lot of my work is in that sort of a prosumer space.

我的很多工作都是在那种产消者领域。

So the products tend to be more complex.

因此，产品往往更加复杂。

Airtable, whimsical, Canva, InVideo.

Airtable、异想天开、Canva、InVideo。

They're very robust products.

它们是非常坚固的产品。

And so it's very easy to get lost in their editors.

所以很容易迷失在他们的编辑中。

I think what all of those companies are trying to do for their respective verticals and use cases is they're trying to democratize access to fades that previously you have to rely on professionals for.

我认为所有这些公司正在努力为各自的垂直领域和用例做的是，他们正在尝试使淡入淡出的访问民主化，而以前您必须依赖专业人士才能做到这一点。

Maybe in the case of bayer team bot, it's your engineers.

也许就拜耳团队机器人而言，是您的工程师。

In the case of PM bot, it is professional graphic designers.

就 PM bot 而言，它是专业的图形设计师。

In the case of a video, it's professional video editors.

就视频而言，它是专业的视频编辑器。

So when they're trying to democratize access, but they're also trying to make the products robust enough to be comparable to a professional great quality.

因此，当他们试图使访问民主化时，他们也在努力使产品足够强大，以与专业的卓越品质相媲美。

And it's a very difficult place to play it, right?

这是一个非常困难的地方，对吧？

It's like, how do you make it simple enough where a nonprofessional can use it, but robust enough where they go and say, "Oh yeah, this is as good as if I would've hired a professional fill in the blank."

就像，你如何让它足够简单，让非专业人士可以使用它，但又足够强大，让他们说，“哦，是的，这就像我聘请专业人士来填补空白一样好。”

Yuriy Timen: And that's where onboarding, sorry for the long answer.

Yuriy Timen：这就是入职的地方，很抱歉回答太长。

That's where onboarding is really, really important because there's such a huge difference between landing someone on that initial editor page, be it Airtable, Canva having that left to their own devices versus getting as much information or as much relevant information front and then customizing that landing experience for them.

这就是入职非常非常重要的地方，因为将某人带到最初的编辑器页面（无论是 Airtable、Canva 还是将其留给他们自己的设备）与获取尽可能多的信息或尽可能多的相关信息，然后为他们定制着陆体验之间存在着巨大的差异。

So that if they're there to do X and we know XYZ about them, we're able to guide them and not expose them to the robustness of the product all at once.

这样，如果他们在那里做 X，并且我们对他们了解 XYZ，我们就能够指导他们，而不是让他们一下子接触到产品的稳健性。

So the short answer is almost all the time onboarding is a big opportunity.

所以简短的回答是，几乎所有时候，入职都是一个很大的机会。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

That's what I was expecting to hear, to give folks some context.

这就是我期待听到的，为人们提供一些背景信息。

What's kind of an order magnitude that you've seen improvement on onboarding and maybe impact on a company improving onboarding.

您看到入职方面的改进是多大的数量级，并且可能对公司改进入职产生影响。

Yuriy Timen: Earlier stage companies where still haven't really approached the local maximal, but you haven't experimented with a ton of things.

Yuriy Timen：早期阶段的公司还没有真正接近局部最大值，但你还没有尝试过很多东西。

I mean, you can two to four X activation rates easily through onboarding.

我的意思是，通过入职培训，您可以轻松提高两到四倍的激活率。

I think later stage companies like maybe Series B beyond, I think you can still probably get to 20 to 30% lift at activations.

我认为后期公司，比如 B 轮融资之后，我认为你仍然可以在激活时获得 20% 到 30% 的提升。

It depends on how many low hanging fruit are left to tackle.

这取决于还有多少容易实现的目标需要解决。

Lenny: That makes sense.

莱尼：这是有道理的。

Yeah.

是的。

Till the onboarding, there's always money in the onboarding banana stand.

在入职之前，入职香蕉摊上总是有钱的。

On that kind of same idea, do you have a general feeling of investments in this stuff often pays off and helps you grow and is often higher ROI and investments in bucket B are rarely successful.

出于同样的想法，您是否总体感觉对这些东西的投资通常会带来回报并帮助您成长，并且通常具有更高的投资回报率，而对 B 桶的投资很少成功。

What would those two buckets be?

那两个桶会是什么？

Yuriy Timen: So thinking of investments rawly, right?

Yuriy Timen：所以从根本上考虑投资，对吧？

Not just monetarily.

不仅仅是金钱上的。

Lenny: Yeah.

莱尼：是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Time and resources.

时间和资源。

Yuriy Timen: Yeah.

尤里·泰门：是的。

I mean, I would say that getting to know your customer always pays off.

我的意思是，我想说了解你的客户总是有回报的。

So it's user interviews and getting to know your market, your customers, and your prospects always pays off.

因此，用户访谈以及了解你的市场、你的客户和你的潜在客户总是有回报的。

Customer research, inside surveying, interviewing panels incredibly useful.

客户研究、内部调查、访谈小组非常有用。

And I found that to be very especially early stages.

我发现这是非常特别的早期阶段。

The amount of clarity at momentum that it can create inside of a seed Series A up to Series B company when you first do some proper research push.

当你第一次进行适当的研究推动时，它可以在 A 轮到 B 轮种子公司内部创造出清晰的动力。

The way it can galvanize the team and give them focus and clarity and purpose is remarkable.

它能够激励团队并让他们集中注意力、清晰度和目标，这种方式是非凡的。

So that always pays off.

所以这总是有回报的。

What doesn't pay off?

什么没有回报？

I mean, I think over reliance on paid, it comes to bite you in the rear end.

我的意思是，我认为过度依赖付费，它会在你的屁股上咬你一口。

When I think about tracking an attribution, I think it's a question of the right level of investment at the right stage.

当我考虑追踪归因时，我认为这是在正确阶段进行正确投资水平的问题。

Yuriy Timen: Rarely do companies get it right.

Yuriy Timen：公司很少能做到正确。

They usually fall into one of two buckets where they underinvest in attribution and they are now, their budgets are up high.

他们通常属于在归因方面投资不足的两种情况之一，而现在，他们的预算很高。

They have a broad channel portfolio and they have a hard time figuring out what's working, what isn't and they just get into this inertia.

他们拥有广泛的渠道组合，但他们很难弄清楚什么有效，什么无效，他们只是陷入了这种惯性。

It's like, "Well, overall, the company's been growing and it's been growing roughly over the same time that we've been increasing our spend.

就像是，“嗯，总的来说，公司一直在增长，而且它的增长与我们增加支出的时间大致相同。

We're scared to break it.

我们害怕打破它。

So we're just going to keep spending." Or companies that read horror stories about other companies overspending.

所以我们只会继续花钱。”或者公司读到其他公司超支的恐怖故事。

They sometimes try to invest in attribution too much, believe it or not where they're trying to get everything perfect and scientifically pure.

不管你信不信，他们有时会在归因上投入太多，试图让一切变得完美和科学纯粹。

But what they don't realize is that the payoff may not always be there.

但他们没有意识到，回报可能并不总是存在。

And so how do I fit this into your question of, I think tracking attribution incrementality is definitely a worthwhile investment arena, but it could both be a good or bad depending on the level.

那么我该如何将其融入到您的问题中，我认为跟踪归因增量绝对是一个值得投资的领域，但根据级别的不同，它可能是好是坏。

So you got to make sure the level investment is appropriate for your stage when you stand to aim for-

因此，当您的目标是-时，您必须确保投资水平适合您的阶段-

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

You're such a good interviewee that you come back to the question.

你是一个很好的受访者，所以你又回到了这个问题。

Lenny: That was great.

莱尼：那太好了。

Okay.

好的。

One last question.

最后一个问题。

Before we get to our very exciting lightning round.

在我们进入非常激动人心的闪电回合之前。

I'd love you to get your thoughts on advertising on TikTok and YouTube and broadly is there any other tactics, avenues that you think are kind of underutilized or emerging that folks should be thinking about?

我希望您能了解一下您对在 TikTok 和 YouTube 上做广告的想法，以及您认为人们应该考虑的其他策略、途径是否未得到充分利用或正在出现？

Yuriy Timen: Yeah.

尤里·泰门：是的。

So TikTok, one thing I'll say about TikTok is I'm seeing it come up more and more as a channel that works well.

关于 TikTok，关于 TikTok，我要说的一件事是，我看到它越来越成为一个运作良好的渠道。

And sometimes even the most efficient channel, most efficient digital channel for some brands.

有时甚至是某些品牌最有效的渠道、最有效的数字渠道。

But I think that the thing about TikTok that oftentimes I was surprised about is you often hear, "Oh, TikTok that's for the 15 to 22 year olds." I'm bad with my gens Z and oh, my audience is different.

但我认为，关于 TikTok，经常让我感到惊讶的是你经常听到，“哦，TikTok 是为 15 到 22 岁的人准备的。”我对我的 Z 世代很不好，哦，我的观众不一样。

So I'm just going to ignore the champ.

所以我会忽略冠军。

TikTok has so many users and it's still so relatively unsaturated with advertisers that your audience is on there.

TikTok 拥有如此多的用户，但广告商相对不饱和，因此你的受众就在那里。

You'd be surprised.

你会感到惊讶的。

Yuriy Timen: I've worked with brands that their core demo is like 40 plus married making 200K plus in household annual income.

Yuriy Timen：我曾与一些品牌合作过，他们的核心演示是 40 岁以上的已婚人士，家庭年收入超过 20 万以上。

And you wouldn't think that demo is on TikTok and it is.

你不会认为 TikTok 上有这个演示，但事实确实如此。

So what point about TikTok?

那么TikTok有什么意义呢？

Other channels, I think out at home is still not getting enough love.

其他渠道，我认为在国内仍然没有得到足够的喜爱。

Podcasts?

播客？

Okay.

好的。

Yep, yep.

是的，是的。

Lenny: Spots through this one.

莱尼：通过这个发现。

I recall you heard it from Yuriy.

我记得你是从尤里那里听来的。

Yuriy Timen: Direct mail, what has happened?

Yuriy Timen：直邮，发生了什么事？

They've gotten better with attribution because before a lot of those channels were written off as sort of attribution is just too hard on there and attribution is so good and reliable on digital.

他们在归因方面做得更好，因为在很多渠道被注销之前，因为那里的归因太难了，而数字归因是如此良好和可靠。

So that's that gap that canyon that existed in attribution capabilities of online and offline, deterred a lot of people from offline.

这就是线上和线下归因能力上存在的鸿沟，让很多人望而却步。

Today offline has gotten better and actually positioning themselves as being able to do attribution, but also online attribution is deteriorated.

如今，线下已经变得更好，并且实际上将自己定位为能够进行归因，但在线归因却在恶化。

So all of a sudden that argument kind of slimmed out a little bit and I'm seeing offline get a lot more traction and in podcasts, especially are actually very, very performant for a lot of brands.

因此，突然之间，这种争论就变得不那么重要了，我看到线下获得了更多的关注，尤其是在播客中，对于很多品牌来说，它们的表现实际上非常非常好。

Those are a couple of things that come to mind.

这是我想到的几件事。

Lenny: Those are great.

莱尼：这些都很棒。

Happy to hear the podcast piece.

很高兴听到这个播客片段。

Excellent.

出色的。

And then I actually, I'm an investor in a startup that Databig at a home campaign and they just told me that it was a 10 to one positive ROI on the deals that they got out of it.

事实上，我是一家初创公司的投资者，Databig 在一次国内活动中，他们只是告诉我，他们从中获得的交易投资回报率为 10 比 1。

So I've been seeing that too, and that's such a good point that the measurement and attribution online has come down where it maybe makes more sense to try stuff like that.

所以我也看到了这一点，这是一个很好的观点，在线测量和归因已经下降，尝试这样的东西可能更有意义。

Amazing.

惊人的。

All right.

好的。

Are you ready for our very exciting lightning round?

您准备好参加我们激动人心的闪电回合了吗？

I'm going to ask you five questions I think, and then just, yeah, let's go through it quick.

我想我会问你五个问题，然后，是的，让我们快速讨论一下。

Lenny: Let's do it.

莱尼：我们开始吧。

Okay.

好的。

What are two or three books that you recommend most to other people?

您最向其他人推荐的两三本书是什么？

Yuriy Timen: Ooh, that's something that I think is very wrong to recency bias, right?

Yuriy Timen：哦，我认为这对于新近度偏差来说是非常错误的，对吧？

It's like, what are some of the books you've read recently that you've enjoyed?

就像，你最近读过的一些你喜欢的书是什么？

But I would say there are a couple of books that stuck with me over the years.

但我想说，有几本书多年来一直困扰着我。

I think on the business side, where on the business side productivity side, it's a book called Essentialism.

我认为在业务方面，在业务方面生产力方面，这是一本叫做本质主义的书。

I forget the author's name.

我忘记作者名字了。

I think his last name is McKeown or something.

我想他姓麦基翁什么的。

And it's basically the book about cutting out the noise and finding a singular focus and doing that really well.

这基本上是一本关于消除噪音、找到单一焦点并做得很好的书。

It's a book that was a game changer for me at Grammarly being sort of new in my career, having really aggressive goals, not being scared to say no. Taking on a lot, just feel it thinking like, "Well, I'm only working 12 hours a day.

这本书对我在 Grammarly 的职业生涯来说是一个改变游戏规则的书，我有非常进取的目标，不害怕说不。承担很多事情，只是感觉这样想：“好吧，我每天只工作 12 个小时。

There's 12 more left.

还剩下12个。

I can do it."

我能做到。”

Yuriy Timen: And then when you end up stepping into a leadership role, which happened for me, I mean, that happened prior to grounded, but really I was able to grow into that role at Grammarly.

Yuriy Timen：然后，当你最终担任领导角色时，这发生在我身上，我的意思是，这发生在接地之前，但实际上我能够在 Grammarly 成长为这个角色。

That book was incredible and I used it a lot.

那本书太棒了，我经常使用它。

I pretty much got copies for everybody on the team, like 40 plus people.

我几乎为团队中的每个人都准备了副本，比如 40 多人。

So that is a book I swear by.

所以这是我发誓的一本书。

Yuriy Timen: I read a lot outside of work and business.

Yuriy Timen：我在工作和商业之外读了很多书。

So I don't know if it's appropriate, but I'll say that.

所以我不知道这是否合适，但我会这么说。

It's Frankl's, A Man's Search for Meaning is just a remarkable memoir on perseverance and I think that biggest takeaway is you can't control what's happening around you, but you can control your reaction to it.

这是弗兰克尔的《一个男人寻找意义》，这是一本关于毅力的非凡回忆录，我认为最大的收获是你无法控制周围发生的事情，但你可以控制你对它的反应。

And then I'd say the book that I read recently, because I was very affected by the Russia invasion of Ukraine.

然后我会说我最近读的书，因为俄罗斯入侵乌克兰对我影响很大。

I'm originally from Ukraine.

我来自乌克兰。

I believe you are as well.

我相信你也是如此。

So it hit very close to home and there have been a lot of references drawn between the President's Zelensky and his response in the war and Winston Churchill's response in 1941 when Hitler started marching through Europe.

因此，它非常切合实际，人们在总统泽连斯基及其在战争中的反应以及 1941 年希特勒开始穿越欧洲时温斯顿·丘吉尔的反应之间进行了很多参考。

And so I read a book called I think The Splendid and the Vile by Eric Larson.

所以我读了埃里克·拉尔森（Eric Larson）写的一本名为《我认为辉煌与邪恶》的书。

Lenny: Yeah.

莱尼：是的。

I read that.

我读到了。

I read that.

我读到了。

Yuriy Timen: Did you also read it since the invasion?

Yuriy Timen：自从入侵以来你也读过它吗？

Lenny: No, it was before that, but I totally get that now.

莱尼：不，那是在那之前，但我现在完全明白了。

Yuriy Timen: Reading it right now because I've been following the conflict very closely, but for people who haven't followed the conflict or maybe have only followed the rush, the war kind of in a cursory way, you can put what's happening into historical context remarkably well.

尤里·泰门（Yuriy Timen）：现在读它是因为我一直在非常密切地关注这场冲突，但对于那些没有关注冲突或者可能只是粗略地关注战争的人来说，你可以很好地将正在发生的事情置于历史背景中。

So I feel like that book accomplishes two things.

所以我觉得这本书完成了两件事。

Number one, it's like you learned something about not so distant history that maybe you didn't know, which was about Great Britain and Winston Churchill kind of courageous response in the face of Hitler's invasion of Europe.

第一，就像你了解了一些你可能不知道的不太遥远的历史，这是关于英国和温斯顿·丘吉尔面对希特勒入侵欧洲时的勇敢反应。

But you also can draw so many parallels to what's happening today.

但你也可以与今天发生的事情有很多相似之处。

And hopefully that helps us understand what's at stake, not to end on two grandiose of a note.

希望这能帮助我们理解其中的利害关系，而不是以两个宏大的注释来结束。

Lenny: We'll go less grandiose quickly, but I will add one thing that stood out in that book that is also true in the Ukraine is how during the fire bombing of Britain, people are just going out every day, going to clubs, still having-

莱尼：我们很快就会不再那么宏大，但我要补充一点，在那本书中突出的一件事在乌克兰也是如此，那就是在英国遭受燃烧弹袭击期间，人们每天都出去，去俱乐部，仍然——

Yuriy Timen: I know.

尤里·泰门：我知道。

Steal them their life.

偷走他们的生命。

Lenny: And same thing even today in Ukraine is.

莱尼：即使在今天的乌克兰也是如此。

Yuriy Timen: And not just keep, but it's very life.

Yuriy Timen：不仅仅是保留，而是生活。

Lenny: I love that.

莱尼：我喜欢这个。

Okay.

好的。

We'll move on to less, less serious stuff maybe.

也许我们会继续讨论一些不太严肃的事情。

What a transition to, what's your favorite other podcast?

过渡到什么程度，您最喜欢的其他播客是什么？

Yuriy Timen: Honestly, there's only one other podcast that I'll listen to right now because I've just been so consumed.

Yuriy Timen：老实说，我现在只会听另外一个播客，因为我已经太投入了。

I listened to a lot of live streams and read a lot about the conflict, which has taken up so much of my head space.

我听了很多直播，读了很多有关这场冲突的文章，这占据了我很多的头脑空间。

That's not work related, but I would say that the All in Pod.

这与工作无关，但我想说的是 All in Pod。

I feel like it's a cool way for me to just catch up on everything that's going on through their unique filter.

我觉得这对我来说是一种很酷的方式，可以通过他们独特的过滤器了解正在发生的一切。

Lenny: I learned a lot from that one.

莱尼：我从那件事中学到了很多东西。

That's so much drama on that show.

那个节目有太多戏剧性了。

Okay.

好的。

Great.

伟大的。

Favorite recent movie or TV show.

最近最喜欢的电影或电视节目。

Anything stand out.

任何事情都脱颖而出。

Yuriy Timen: So that's another thing.

Yuriy Timen：那是另一回事了。

Since February I've watched nothing.

自二月份以来我什么也没看过。

My Netflix skew just keeps growing because they keep emailing me saying this new season is out.

我对 Netflix 的关注度不断增加，因为他们不断给我发电子邮件说新一季已经结束。

I'm like, "Oh yeah.

我想，“哦，是的。

I used to that show.

我曾经看过那个节目。

Let me add it to the queue." I mean, recently I had some downtime.

让我将其添加到队列中。”我的意思是，最近我有一些休息时间。

The kids were with grandma, so I watch movie Hustle with Adam Sandler.

孩子们和奶奶在一起，所以我和亚当·桑德勒一起看电影《喧嚣》。

Yuriy Timen: Yeah.

尤里·泰门：是的。

It was good.

很好。

It was it's very light.

它非常轻。

It's not like a movie that's going to make you think a lot, but it was just good old entertainment.

这不像一部会让你思考很多的电影，但这只是一种古老的娱乐方式。

Yeah.

是的。

Lenny: I like that.

莱尼：我喜欢这样。

I like that summary.

我喜欢这个总结。

Yeah, it was so delightful.

是啊，真是太令人愉快了。

Maybe one more question.

也许还有一个问题。

Who else in the industry do you most respect as a thought leader?

作为思想领袖，您在行业中最尊敬的还有谁？

Maybe someone people may not know or if anyone else comes to mind.

也许人们可能不认识某个人，或者是否想到了其他人。

Yuriy Timen: That's a very good question.

Yuriy Timen：这是一个非常好的问题。

So I would say first off, I do believe that some of the brightest minds, honestly, in any craft are people that you never hear because it takes a certain personality, energy, and probably a lot of other circumstances to invest in your personal brand.

所以我首先要说的是，老实说，我确实相信，在任何行业中，一些最聪明的人都是你从未听说过的人，因为投资你的个人品牌需要一定的个性、精力，可能还需要很多其他条件。

And also it's very hard to do that while still staying relevant as a practitioner.

而且，在保持作为实践者的地位的同时，要做到这一点是非常困难的。

I mean, when I think about myself two years ago before starting advising, I was just kind of living in my Grammarly cave.

我的意思是，当我想起两年前开始提供建议之前的自己时，我就像生活在我的语法洞穴里一样。

And I felt like I was probably at the top of my craft, but I didn't have time to pick my head up or not, maybe not even just tie, but I didn't know where to start to pick my head up and do something like this.

我觉得我可能已经达到了我的手艺的顶峰，但我没有时间抬起头或不抬起头，也许甚至连领带都没有，但我不知道从哪里开始抬起头来做这样的事情。

I would say some people that, I mean, I mentioned Ethan in terms of SEO.

我会对一些人说，我的意思是，我在 SEO 方面提到了 Ethan。

SEO and just organic growth loops and content as a growth engine, he is best in class.

搜索引擎优化和有机增长循环和内容作为增长引擎，他是同类中最好的。

Yuriy Timen: Who else?

尤里·泰门：还有谁？

So Mark Fisk, he shows up in the Reforge chats a lot.

马克·菲斯克 (Mark Fisk) 经常出现在 Reforge 聊天室中。

He was leading growth and marketing at Credit Karma for a while.

他曾在 Credit Karma 领导增长和营销工作一段时间。

And right now he's an investor I think at the HRG Capital, but he is a really, really strong thought leader on all things, performance marketing attribution, and just kind of paid acquisition at large.

现在他是 HRG Capital 的投资者，但他在所有事情、绩效营销归因以及总体付费收购方面都是一位非常非常强大的思想领袖。

Those are two people that I make sure I...

这两个人我确信我...

And there are others of course, but those are two who I make sure I stay in touch with at least on a quarterly basis because any casual catch up just yield so many unique nuggets.

当然还有其他人，但我确保至少每季度与他们保持联系，因为任何偶然的接触都会产生如此多独特的金块。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

Where can folks find you online if they want to reach out, learn more and how can listeners be useful to you?

如果人们想要联系、了解更多信息，可以在哪里找到您？听众如何对您有用？

Yuriy Timen: Honestly, I don't have a very strong online presence.

Yuriy Timen：老实说，我在网上的影响力不是很强。

I would say LinkedIn is probably the only place where I seek things the recent, so folks can find me there.

我想说 LinkedIn 可能是我最近寻找东西的唯一地方，所以人们可以在那里找到我。

They can also find me inside of Lenny's Newsletter.

他们还可以在莱尼的时事通讯中找到我。

I do.

我愿意。

I do.

我愿意。

I do, but you can appearance there once in a while and on that's odd.

我愿意，但你偶尔会出现在那里，这很奇怪。

Yuriy Timen: How folks can be helpful to me, honestly, promote and shout out of Lenny's Newsletter and Lenny's Pod and that if you're building awesome things, come talk to me.

Yuriy Timen：老实说，人们如何对我有帮助，宣传和宣传 Lenny's Newsletter 和 Lenny's Pod，如果您正在构建很棒的东西，请来跟我谈谈。

I always carve out some amount of time in my life just for noncommercial things, just to have conversations with founders and spent 30 minutes with them on a phone, expecting nothing in return and maybe save them some time from making some of the mistakes that I've made and help direct them on a more path.

我总是在生活中抽出一些时间来做非商业性的事情，只是为了与创始人交谈，并花 30 分钟与他们通电话，不求任何回报，也许可以为他们节省一些时间，避免犯我所犯的一些错误，并帮助引导他们走上一条更好的道路。

So it's about it.

所以就是这样。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

You are awesome.

你太棒了。

Thank you so much for making the time to do this.

非常感谢您抽出时间来做这件事。

I learned a ton.

我学到了很多。

I can't wait to get this episode out.

我迫不及待地想把这一集拿出来。

There's just so much meat to this thing,

这东西的肉实在是太多了

Yuriy Timen: I feel like my nervousness was unfounded.

Yuriy Timen：我觉得我的紧张是没有根据的。

This was super organic.

这是超级有机的。

You are just as welcoming as you are outside of the pod.

您就像在吊舱外一样热情。

So yeah.

所以是的。

Thanks for having me.

谢谢你有我。

Lenny: Thanks Yuriy.

莱尼：谢谢尤里。

Thank you so much for listening.

非常感谢您的聆听。

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如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.

您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。