An inside look at how Figma builds product | Yuhki Yamashita (CPO of Figma)

Lenny: There's something controversial about this idea that everyone can see what you're doing or that multiple designers can be in the file at the same time.

Lenny：这个想法存在一些争议，即每个人都可以看到你在做什么，或者多个设计师可以同时出现在文件中。

We like to say that one of the first responses we saw Lenny Figma was, if this is the future of design, I'm quitting, right?

我们想说，我们看到 Lenny Figma 的第一个反应是，如果这就是设计的未来，我就退出，对吧？

I'm changing careers.

我正在改变职业。

Lenny: And there's that tension of that narrative tension, but that is signal that you're part of this revolution and you're trying to change something.

莱尼：叙事张力存在张力，但这表明你是这场革命的一部分，并且你正在努力改变一些东西。

And when it equips your customers or user base with that, then I think that's something that they can really get behind and champion.

当它为您的客户或用户群提供这些时，我认为这是他们真正可以支持和支持的东西。

Lenny: So it's not just that they're championing for a tool, they're also championing for a new way of working.

莱尼：所以他们不仅支持一种工具，还支持一种新的工作方式。

Obviously, that's a tall order or don't want to come up with that, but hopefully, if you're a founder and you're working on something, your vision is so big that you have those kind of ideas and it's like, how do you actually equip your customers to want to talk about that?

显然，这是一个艰巨的任务，或者不想提出这个，但希望，如果你是创始人并且你正在做某事，你的愿景是如此之大，以至于你有这样的想法，就像，你如何真正让你的客户想要谈论这个？

Lenny: Welcome to Lenny's podcast.

莱尼：欢迎来到莱尼的播客。

I'm Lenny, and my goal here is to help you get better at the craft of building and growing products, interview world class product leaders and growth experts to learn from their hard won experiences, building and scaling today's most successful companies.

我是莱尼，我的目标是帮助您更好地构建和发展产品，采访世界一流的产品领导者和发展专家，从他们来之不易的经验中学习，建立和扩大当今最成功的公司。

Lenny: Today my guest is Yuhki Yamashita.

莱尼：今天我的客人是山下雄贵。

Yuhki is Chief Product Officer at Figma, where he's been for almost four years.

Yuhki 是 Figma 的首席产品官，他已在该职位工作了近四年。

Prior to Figma, he was at Uber, both as a Product Leader and also, interestingly, as Head of Design for one of their bigger product teams.

在加入 Figma 之前，他曾在 Uber 担任产品负责人，有趣的是，还担任其较大产品团队之一的设计主管。

Before Uber, Yuhki spent time at Google and Microsoft, even taught an introductory computer science course at Harvard.

在加入 Uber 之前，Yuhki 曾在谷歌和微软工作过，甚至在哈佛大学教授计算机科学入门课程。

Lenny: In our conversation, we explore Figma's product development philosophy, how they build such consistently great products, how they hire, what habit Yuhki has found to be the most instrumental in his success in his career, and also what Yuhki and his product team have learned by building a product led growth business.

Lenny：在我们的谈话中，我们探讨了 Figma 的产品开发理念、他们如何打造始终如一的出色产品、他们如何招聘、Yuhki 发现什么习惯对他职业生涯的成功最有帮助，以及 Yuhki 和他的产品团队通过建立以产品为导向的增长型业务所学到的东西。

Lenny: This episode builds on a newsletter post where I interview Yuhki about how Figma builds product.

Lenny：这一集是基于一篇时事通讯文章，我在其中采访了 Yuhki，了解 Figma 如何构建产品。

So if you enjoy this episode, or even while you're listening to it, I highly recommend you check it out.

因此，如果您喜欢这一集，或者即使您正在听它，我强烈建议您查看一下。

It's currently my fourth most popular newsletter post of all time.

目前，这是我有史以来第四受欢迎的时事通讯帖子。

You can find it at lennysnewsletter.com.

您可以在 lennysnewsletter.com 上找到它。

With that, I bring you Yuhki Yamashita, after a short word from our wonderful sponsors.

在我们精彩的赞助商简短发言之后，我为您带来了 Yuhki Yamashita。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Notion.

Lenny：这一集是由 Notion 为您带来的。

If you haven't heard of Notion, where have you been?

如果您还没有听说过 Notion，那么您去过哪里？

A's notion to coordinate this very podcast, including my content calendar, my sponsors, and prepping guests for launch of each episode.

A 的想法是协调这个播客，包括我的内容日历、我的赞助商以及为每集发布准备嘉宾。

Notion is an all-in-one team collaboration tool that combines note-taking, document sharing, wikis, project management, and much more into one space that's simple, powerful and beautifully designed.

Notion 是一款一体化团队协作工具，它将笔记记录、文档共享、wiki、项目管理等功能结合到一个简单、强大且设计精美的空间中。

Lenny: And not only does it allow you to be more efficient in your work life, but you can easily transition to using it in your personal life, which is another feature that truly sets Notion apart.

Lenny：它不仅可以让您在工作生活中更有效率，而且您可以轻松过渡到在个人生活中使用它，这是真正使 Notion 与众不同的另一个功能。

The other day, I started a home project and immediately opened up Notion to help me organize it all.

有一天，我开始了一个家庭项目，并立即打开了 Notion 来帮助我组织这一切。

Learn more and get started for free.

了解更多信息并免费开始。

At notion.com/lennyspod, take the first step towards an organized happy team today.

今天就在 notion.com/lennyspod 上迈出建立一个有组织的快乐团队的第一步。

Again, at notion.com/lennyspod.

再次，请访问 notion.com/lennyspod。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Vanta, helping you streamline your security compliance to accelerate growth.

Lenny：本集由 Vanta 为您带来，可帮助您简化安全合规性以加速增长。

If you're business stores any data in the cloud, then you've likely been asked, or you're going to be asked about your SOC 2 compliance.

如果您的企业在云中存储任何数据，那么您可能会被询问，或者将会被询问您的 SOC 2 合规性。

SOC 2 is a way to prove your company's taking proper security measures to protect customer data and builds trust with customers and partners, especially those with serious security requirements.

SOC 2 是一种证明您的公司采取了适当的安全措施来保护客户数据并与客户和合作伙伴（尤其是那些有严格安全要求的客户和合作伙伴）建立信任的方法。

Lenny: Also, if you want to sell to the enterprise, proving security is essential.

Lenny：另外，如果你想向企业销售产品，证明安全性至关重要。

SOC 2 can either open the door for bigger and better deals, or it can put your business on hold.

SOC 2 可以为更大、更好的交易打开大门，也可以让您的业务陷入困境。

If you don't have a SOC 2, there's a good chance you won't even get a seat at the table.

如果您没有 SOC 2，您很可能甚至无法获得席位。

Beginning a SOC to your port can be a huge burden, especially for startups.

在您的端口上启动 SOC 可能是一个巨大的负担，尤其是对于初创公司而言。

It's time consuming, tedious and expensive.

这是耗时、乏味且昂贵的。

Lenny: Enter Vanta.

莱尼：万塔上。

Over 3000 fast growing companies use Vanta to automate up to 90% of the work involved with SOC 2.

超过 3000 家快速发展的公司使用 Vanta 自动化 SOC 2 涉及的高达 90% 的工作。

Vanta can get you ready for security audits in weeks instead of months, less than a third of the time that it usually takes.

Vanta 可以让您在几周而不是几个月内为安全审核做好准备，不到通常所需时间的三分之一。

For a limited time.

在有限的时间内。

Lenny's podcast listeners get $1,000 off Vanta.

Lenny 的播客听众可享受 Vanta 1,000 美元优惠。

Just go to vanta.com/lenny, that's V A N T A.com/lenny to learn more and to claim your discount.

只需访问vanta.com/lenny（即V A NTA.com/lenny）即可了解更多信息并申请折扣。

Get started today.

今天就开始吧。

Lenny: Yuhki, welcome to the podcast.

Lenny：Yuhki，欢迎来到播客。

Yuhki Yamashita: Thank you for having me, Lenny.

Yuhki Yamashita：谢谢你邀请我，Lenny。

Lenny: I'm quite honored to have you on this podcast.

莱尼：我很荣幸您能参加这个播客。

For folks who don't know, we actually collaborated already on a newsletter post that has quickly become my fourth most popular post of all time, which you can find if you search for how Figma builds product.

对于那些不知道的人来说，我们实际上已经合作发布了一篇时事通讯文章，该文章很快成为我有史以来第四受欢迎的文章，如果您搜索 Figma 如何构建产品，您就可以找到该文章。

And so I am really excited to dig into a lot of the stuff that we, maybe, didn't cover in that newsletter.

因此，我真的很高兴能够深入研究我们可能在该新闻通讯中未涵盖的许多内容。

Also, just like how product works at Figma in more depth, how the PM team works, how you think about product, and things like that.

另外，就像 Figma 的产品如何更深入地工作、PM 团队如何工作、你如何看待产品等等。

So again, thank you for joining me.

再次感谢您加入我。

Yuhki Yamashita: Hi, team, as a huge fan of this podcast, so really honored to be here.

Yuhki Yamashita：嗨，团队，作为这个播客的忠实粉丝，非常荣幸来到这里。

Lenny: Wow, that means a lot.

莱尼：哇，这意义重大。

I really appreciate that.

我真的很感激。

So you are currently Chief Product Officer at Figma, which is such an epic role.

所以你目前是 Figma 的首席产品官，这是一个史诗般的角色。

It's such an epic company.

这是一家史诗般的公司。

Could you take just, maybe, a minute or two to high level share your career arc, how you got to where you're today as CPO at Figma?

您能否花一两分钟的时间向高层分享一下您的职业生涯，您是如何取得今天作为Figma CPO 的地位的？

Yuhki Yamashita: My first job out of college is actually at Microsoft, and I was the Product Manager on Hotmail.

Yuhki Yamashita：我大学毕业后的第一份工作实际上是在 Microsoft，我是 Hotmail 的产品经理。

If anyone, any listener remembers Hotmail, and I didn't really know what product management was at the time, and I mute it as a interdisciplinary function that will give me exposure to all my other functions so that I can actually decide which function's interesting to me.

如果有人、任何听众还记得 Hotmail，我当时并不真正知道产品管理是什么，我将其视为一个跨学科功能，这将使我接触到所有其他功能，以便我能够真正决定哪个功能对我来说是有趣的。

Yuhki Yamashita: And so, spent a couple years at Microsoft.

Yuhki Yamashita：所以，在微软工作了几年。

Through that, also, moved on to Hotmail to Windows.

从此，我们又从 Hotmail 迁移到 Windows。

And at the time, they were working on Windows 8 and Windows 8 was really interesting because it's a very touch forward version of Windows.

当时，他们正在开发 Windows 8，Windows 8 非常有趣，因为它是 Windows 的一个非常先进的版本。

And so there's just a lot of conversations about UI and UX, and that was really fun for me.

所以有很多关于 UI 和 UX 的讨论，这对我来说真的很有趣。

Yuhki Yamashita: And as I was thinking about what's next, I really felt the draw of Silicon Valley and I ended up at YouTube, and I believe Shishir has been on this podcast before?

Yuhki Yamashita：当我思考下一步时，我真的感受到了硅谷的吸引力，最后我加入了 YouTube，我相信 Shishir 以前也参加过这个播客吗？

Yuhki Yamashita: Yeah, so Shishir was leading YouTube at the time, and he continues to be a great mentor of mine, but had the opportunity to lead the YouTube app on iOS over there.

Yuhki Yamashita：是的，当时 Shishir 正在领导 YouTube，他仍然是我的伟大导师，但他有机会在那里领导 iOS 上的 YouTube 应用。

And it was really funny because I had never touched the iPhone before my first day, so my manager, on my first day, just sent me to the Apple Store to buy an iPhone.

这真的很有趣，因为我在第一天之前从未接触过 iPhone，所以我的经理在我第一天就派我去 Apple Store 购买 iPhone。

But that was my next job and that was a really interesting change for me, too, of, and we can talk about this later, as well as different companies and different styles of product management and really figuring out, I think it was a place that taught me a lot about some of my product last weeks to date.

但这是我的下一份工作，这对我来说也是一个非常有趣的变化，我们可以稍后讨论这个，以及不同的公司和不同风格的产品管理，真正弄清楚，我认为这是一个地方，上周迄今为止教会了我很多关于我的一些产品的知识。

Yuhki Yamashita: And this is also around a time where there are a lot of interesting companies that were working in the physical and digital space.

Yuhki Yamashita：这也是有很多有趣的公司在物理和数字领域开展工作的时期。

And so Airbnb was one of them, Uber was another.

Airbnb 是其中之一，Uber 是另一个。

So I felt this draw just because it seemed just a really interesting space to be in.

所以我觉得这个吸引人的地方只是因为它似乎是一个非常有趣的空间。

So eventually, ended up at Uber.

所以最终，我选择了 Uber。

Uber was another company where I feel like a lot of my philosophy that, hopefully we can get into today, around how to build products, how to build products in the kind of environment that's really fast moving.

Uber 是另一家我觉得有很多我的理念的公司，希望我们今天能够围绕如何构建产品，如何在快速变化的环境中构建产品。

And so that I learned a lot from there.

所以我从那里学到了很多东西。

Yuhki Yamashita: And to date, all those companies has really been focusing on the core experiences on consumer products, and that's really been most of my career.

Yuhki Yamashita：到目前为止，所有这些公司都一直专注于消费产品的核心体验，这确实是我职业生涯的大部分时间。

And as part of that, worked with a lot of amazing designers.

作为其中的一部分，与许多出色的设计师合作。

But at Uber, I realized that I wanted to dip my toes into design directly.

但在 Uber，我意识到我想直接涉足设计。

For the tail end, I actually switched from PM to design and managed a few design teams working on our bikes and scooter efforts just to understand what that's like.

对于尾部，我实际上从产品经理转向了设计，并管理了一些设计团队，致力于我们的自行车和踏板车工作，只是为了了解那是什么样的。

And it was around this time, around my Uber career, where we encountered this tool called Figma.

大约在这个时候，在我的 Uber 职业生涯中，我们遇到了这个名为 Figma 的工具。

Yuhki Yamashita: I'd happened to be working on a project that experimentally brought Figma into the company.

Yuhki Yamashita：我碰巧正在从事一个项目，实验性地将 Figma 引入公司。

It was a time in the company where we were trying to transform our culture to be much more transparent and inclusive, and Figma was the perfect fit for that.

当时在公司，我们试图将我们的文化转变为更加透明和包容，而 Figma 非常适合这一点。

So, I got to watch how Figma changed the way it worked, how it's spread within the company.

所以，我必须观察 Figma 如何改变它的工作方式，以及它如何在公司内传播。

We got to know the Figma team a little bit, as well.

我们也对 Figma 团队有了一些了解。

And yeah, I was really drawn to that mission and as a product manager who's been straddling that boundary between design and products for all my career, I really loved how Figma proactively blurred that boundary and opened up that process of participating in design.

是的，我真的被这个使命所吸引，作为一名产品经理，我的整个职业生涯都在跨越设计和产品之间的界限，我真的很喜欢Figma如何主动模糊这个界限并开放参与设计的过程。

So I really got behind that mission and that's how I ended up here, at Figma.

所以我真的支持了这个使命，这就是我最终来到 Figma 的原因。

Lenny: It's so fascinating that you moved into design from product, and then back into product.

Lenny：这太令人着迷了，你从产品转向设计，然后又回到产品。

At Uber, were, what was the role?

在 Uber，我们的角色是什么？

You were Head of Design for the mobility team?

您是移动团队的设计主管？

Yuhki Yamashita: Yeah, it's called New Mobility, focused on just our micro mobility efforts, basically.

Yuhki Yamashita：是的，它被称为“新移动”，基本上只专注于我们的微型移动工作。

Yeah.

是的。

Lenny: Do you recommend this path for PMs to switch into design?

Lenny：您是否推荐 PM 转入设计这条路径？

I know it's not something anyone can do, but do you feel like that is an important skill role to experience as a PM, you encourage people to try that?

我知道这不是任何人都可以做到的事情，但您是否认为这是作为产品经理需要体验的重要技能角色，您鼓励人们尝试这样做？

Yuhki Yamashita: Well, I decided it's not for everyone, but I think that it's, first of all, a really great empathy building exercise of understanding that point of view, and also pushing yourself to push on the product from a different angle.

Yuhki Yamashita：嗯，我认为这并不适合所有人，但我认为，首先，这是一个非常好的同理心建立练习，可以理解这种观点，并促使自己从不同的角度推动产品。

Because I think as a PM, you're in the center facilitating all these different trade offs, and when you go into design, you have to ignore some of those other aspects to really be insistent on pushing on the best experience possible.

因为我认为作为产品经理，你处于促进所有这些不同权衡的中心，当你进入设计时，你必须忽略其中的一些其他方面，才能真正坚持推动尽可能的最佳体验。

Just suspend everyone's disbelief in business feasibility or engineering feasibility to push on a vision.

只需暂停每个人对业务可行性或工程可行性的怀疑即可推动愿景。

And that's just an interesting exercise to do.

这只是一个有趣的练习。

Yuhki Yamashita: And then, I think the last thing is, I actually think it's an opportunity for in design and PM to learn from each other.

Yuhki Yamashita：然后，我认为最后一件事是，我实际上认为这是设计和 PM 相互学习的机会。

When I became manager of design teams, one of the things that I coach designers on, are how to win over PMs, and how to speak in PM's language, and likewise, it's important for PMs to understand that, as well.

当我成为设计团队的经理时，我指导设计师的一件事就是如何赢得PM，以及如何用PM的语言说话，同样，PM理解这一点也很重要。

So those are some of the things that I thought were helpful, but again, it has to come from a place of passion that you know you really want to do this.

所以这些是我认为有用的一些事情，但同样，它必须来自你知道你真的想这样做的激情所在。

Lenny: Which job would you say is harder; design or product management?

莱尼：你觉得哪种工作更难？设计还是产品管理？

Yuhki Yamashita: They're hard for different reasons.

Yuhki Yamashita：他们因为不同的原因而很难。

I would say managing designers is harder than managing product managers.

我想说管理设计师比管理产品经理更难。

Yuhki Yamashita: And I think part of it is that designers are, it's really important to focus on growing their craft and helping them develop as designers.

Yuhki Yamashita：我认为部分原因是设计师，专注于发展他们的手艺并帮助他们发展成为设计师是非常重要的。

So it might not be that the company's biggest problem is one where you can actually learn this new thing you're trying to learn as a designer, and this probably happened for engineers, too, right?

因此，公司最大的问题可能不是你作为一名设计师能够真正学习你想要学习的新东西，这也可能发生在工程师身上，对吧？

You could be working on the onboarding funnel, and that might not be the best place to be learning micro interactions, or maybe it is, but those aren't always aligned.

您可能正在研究入职渠道，这可能不是学习微交互的最佳场所，也可能是，但这些并不总是一致的。

Yuhki Yamashita: Whereas, with Pms, it's a little bit more like PMs are just hungry for impact, and so you can point them to the biggest problems a company has.

Yuhki Yamashita：而对于 Pms，更像是 PM 渴望产生影响，因此您可以向他们指出公司面临的最大问题。

And while PMs also do want to understand different kinds of problems or have the experience working on different kinds of problems, at the end of the day, I feel they want to be working on the thing that matters most in the company.

虽然产品经理也确实希望了解不同类型的问题或拥有解决不同类型问题的经验，但归根结底，我觉得他们希望致力于公司中最重要的事情。

So from that perspective, it's easy.

所以从这个角度来看，这很容易。

Yuhki Yamashita: But as you know, and the reason this podcast exists is because PM isn't easy.

Yuhki Yamashita：但正如你所知，这个播客存在的原因是因为 PM 并不容易。

And so the discipline, I think, is harder in a sense that it's sometimes hard on a day-to-day pace to know if you're doing the best thing you could possibly be doing.

因此，我认为，从某种意义上说，纪律更加困难，因为有时很难在日常节奏中知道自己是否在做自己可能做的最好的事情。

And so I think that makes it a little bit harder as a PM, as well.

所以我认为这也让作为总理变得有点困难。

Lenny: I had a designer friend who moved into a PM role, I had a product role at a startup and she's like, "Holy shit, I had no idea how hard being a product manager was, and a product leader.

Lenny：我有一个设计师朋友，后来担任产品经理，我在一家初创公司担任产品角色，她说：“天哪，我不知道担任产品经理和产品领导者有多难。

I have so much more empathy for the PM role." And so, it's interesting, it works in both ways.

我对总理的角色更加有同理心。”所以，这很有趣，它以两种方式发挥作用。

Similarly, I was actually a manager of engineers, at one point, and I felt the same way where managing PMs was a lot easier than managing engineers.

同样，我实际上曾经是一名工程师经理，我也有同样的感觉，管理 PM 比管理工程师容易得多。

So, translates to a lot of different roles.

因此，转化为很多不同的角色。

Lenny: Folks listening to your career arc and just all the places you've been, all the wonderful things you've done.

莱尼：人们在听你的职业生涯以及你去过的所有地方，你做过的所有美妙的事情。

Imagine many people are like, wow, how do I have a career like that?

想象一下，很多人会想，哇，我怎么能拥有这样的职业呢？

Microsoft, Google, Figma, Uber.

微软、谷歌、Figma、Uber。

If you had to think back and identify maybe one habit, or one skill, or behavior that you think has most contributed to your success as a leader, as a product leader, what do you think that would be?

如果你必须回想并找出你认为对你作为领导者、产品领导者的成功最有贡献的一种习惯、一项技能或行为，你认为那会是什么？

Yuhki Yamashita: People who work with me know that I often talk about storytelling and, in fact, if you've ever reported to me, storytelling has showed up in some kind of performance review, I feel, and that's how much I care about it.

Yuhki Yamashita：和我一起工作的人知道我经常谈论讲故事，事实上，如果你曾经向我报告过，我觉得讲故事已经出现在某种绩效评估中，这就是我对它的关心。

And I actually think that a lot of being a great product manager is being a great storyteller.

事实上，我认为成为一名优秀的产品经理很大程度上就是成为一名优秀的讲故事的人。

And I know a lot of us have already talked about it out there.

我知道我们很多人已经讨论过这个问题。

I think the importance of storytelling is understood, but maybe I would share two things that are specific about it that I think are interesting.

我认为讲故事的重要性是众所周知的，但也许我会分享两件我认为有趣的具体事情。

Yuhki Yamashita: One is to understanding the power of synthesis and it's this idea that maybe even as a early career PM, you're inside some of these reviews and a lot of people say, "Hey, at least you could take some notes for the meeting so that you're adding value." And so that's common advice, here, but I think the most powerful part of that is that in some ways, you can synthesize what happened.

Yuhki Yamashita：一是理解综合的力量，正是这个想法，即使作为一名早期职业产品经理，你也会参与其中的一些评论，很多人会说，“嘿，至少你可以为会议做一些笔记，这样你就可以增加价值。”这是这里的常见建议，但我认为其中最有力的部分是，在某些方面，你可以综合所发生的事情。

And a lot of things are said in a review and there's still this bring it all together into a distillation of a message.

评论中说了很多事情，但仍然将它们汇总成一条信息的精华。

And even that's like, that's a lot of power, I think.

即使这样，我认为这也是很大的力量。

And what do you take away from all these different opinions that all these leaders had, and how do you push that, push the project forward from there?

您从所有这些领导人的不同意见中得到了什么？您如何推动这一点，从那里推动项目向前发展？

So that's one example.

这就是一个例子。

Yuhki Yamashita: Or another example is, I really love thinking through frameworks and offering ways of talking about a problem or ways of thinking about a problem.

Yuhki Yamashita：或者另一个例子是，我真的很喜欢通过框架进行思考，并提供谈论问题或思考问题的方式。

And that's synthesis, too, of figuring out all these different disparate parts and coming up with a way to a lens to look at something.

这也是综合，找出所有这些不同的不同部分，并想出一种用镜头来观察事物的方法。

And I feel like it's something that was, I learned, mostly through literature classes almost, where you're doing literary commentary and you're reading a William Yates poem and you're trying to, you observe all these interesting things, but then you have to take those different observations and distill it into a thesis, into something cohesive.

我觉得这是我学到的，主要是通过文学课，你在做文学评论，你在读威廉·耶茨的诗，你试图观察所有这些有趣的事情，但你必须把这些不同的观察结果提炼成一篇论文，成为有凝聚力的东西。

And I think that's what a good PM can do.

我认为这就是一个优秀的总理所能做的。

All these different ideas, and opinions, and problems, and how do you distill it down?

所有这些不同的想法、观点和问题，你如何将它们提炼出来？

And so I think that's one aspect of storytelling that's really important.

所以我认为这是讲故事非常重要的一方面。

Yuhki Yamashita: And the other aspect of storytelling, of course, is a story is only as good as the action that it's capable of driving.

Yuhki Yamashita：当然，讲故事的另一个方面是，故事的好坏取决于它能够驱动的动作。

And a lot of times that I often coach my product managers are on, we're living in a world where everyone is constantly distracted, and you get these 30 seconds of attention at a time.

很多时候，我经常指导我的产品经理，我们生活在一个每个人都不断分心的世界，你一次会得到 30 秒的关注。

And so, just the ability to really tell something powerful that sticks is really important, the memorability of it.

因此，真正讲述一些强有力的、令人难忘的事情的能力，即它的记忆力，真的很重要。

Yuhki Yamashita: And I often talk about memification, which is this idea that I found this out most at Uber, I feel, where there's certain insights, data insights, research insights that were memmified to the point where someone like Travis or Dara would just cite this insight in the middle of a meeting, and you know that you've really done your job as, maybe, a researcher or a data scientist or product manager if people are able to do that and draw from that in that way.

Yuhki Yamashita：我经常谈论记忆化，我觉得这是我在 Uber 发现最多的想法，其中有某些见解、数据见解、研究见解被记忆化到像 Travis 或 Dara 这样的人会在会议中引用这种见解，并且你知道，如果人们能够做到这一点并从中吸取教训，你就知道你可能真正完成了作为研究员、数据科学家或产品经理的工作。

And that's what, ultimately, sticks.

这就是最终坚持下来的。

Yuhki Yamashita: And so when you start thinking about it from that perspective, it's really powerful because it's the way in which knowledge is transferred within the company and you compel action for it.

Yuhki Yamashita：所以当你开始从这个角度思考它时，它真的很强大，因为它是知识在公司内部转移的方式，并且你强制采取行动。

Or when I'm being, maybe, asked questions by other leaders or stakeholders, the thing that's going through my head is, okay, there's this story that, that leader is trying to develop, or a meme about what this project is about or what the biggest problem is.

或者，当我被其他领导者或利益相关者问到问题时，我脑海中浮现的事情是，好吧，有一个领导者正在试图开发的故事，或者是关于这个项目的内容或最大问题是什么的模因。

And so, what story are they trying to create in their head so that they can remember or talk about what's happened?

那么，他们试图在脑海中创造什么样的故事，以便他们能够记住或谈论发生的事情？

Yuhki Yamashita: And if you take that mindset, you just realize that it's a really useful way to think about everything.

Yuhki Yamashita：如果你采取这种心态，你就会意识到这是一种思考一切的非常有用的方式。

Lenny: I'm really excited to chat about this idea because it comes up a lot.

莱尼：我很高兴能谈论这个想法，因为它出现了很多次。

The power of storytelling, it's similar to being good at vision.

讲故事的力量，就像擅长视觉一样。

It's like PMs are always told, "Hey, you got to improve in vision." Here's a skill the great PMs are really strong at.

就像产品经理总是被告知，“嘿，你必须提高视力。”这是伟大的产品经理真正擅长的一项技能。

And I feel like storytelling is similar.

我觉得讲故事是相似的。

It's this vague cloud of a skill that you build over time.

这是你随着时间的推移而建立起来的一种模糊的技能。

And you mentioned a few things that you recommend to people that you work with.

您提到了一些向与您一起工作的人推荐的事情。

Think of it as a meme, maybe.

也许可以将其视为模因。

Lenny: Is there anything else?

莱尼：还有别的事吗？

When you're doing a performance review with a PM and one of their skill gaps is storytelling, is there anything else you recommend they specifically do to get better at the skill, or is it just do it again and again and watch me do it, watch other people do it and you'll learn?

当你与产品经理进行绩效评估时，他们的技能差距之一是讲故事，你是否建议他们特别做其他事情来提高技能，或者只是一遍又一遍地做，看我做，看其他人做，你就会学到东西？

Yuhki Yamashita: Yeah, I think of it as resetting the internal computer of my brain a little bit so that I start from scratch again.

Yuhki Yamashita：是的，我认为这是稍微重置我大脑的内部计算机，以便我重新从头开始。

And when I'm starting from no context at all, can I build up the story from bare and explain what's happening?

当我完全没有背景时，我可以从头开始构建故事并解释正在发生的事情吗？

And oftentimes, you're just caught in the middle of everything and you have all this context that might not be obvious if you step away from it for just a second.

很多时候，你只是陷入了所有事情的中间，并且你拥有所有这些背景，如果你离开它一秒钟，这些背景可能并不明显。

Yuhki Yamashita: I guess the way to think about it is, put yourself in another user's shoes, and that user is someone who has no idea what's happening and still wants to understand, in a nuanced enough way, what you're grappling with.

Yuhki Yamashita：我想思考这个问题的方法是，把自己放在另一个用户的立场上，这个用户不知道发生了什么，但仍然想以足够细致的方式理解你正在努力解决的问题。

And so, that reset moment, and to pull yourself out helps you tell a better story, in many cases.

因此，在很多情况下，重置时刻以及让自己摆脱困境可以帮助你讲述一个更好的故事。

So that's one thing that comes to mind, yeah.

所以这是我想到的一件事，是的。

Lenny: Got it.

莱尼：明白了。

So it's escape the curse of knowledge a little bit and just assume people don't know anything about the context, the background, why this is important, come back to the beginning.

所以它稍微逃脱了知识的诅咒，假设人们对上下文、背景、为什么这很重要一无所知，回到开头。

Yuhki Yamashita: Yeah, I think another thing that where I learned storytelling is through teaching.

Yuhki Yamashita：是的，我认为我学习讲故事的另一件事是通过教学。

So when I was a course assistant for a computer science class and I had to explain pointers, you're like, okay, I really have to borrow on real world metaphors or something that is much more grounding because if you assume a lot of knowledge, then it can be inaccessible to a lot of people.

因此，当我担任计算机科学课程的课程助理时，我必须解释指示，你会说，好吧，我真的必须借用现实世界的隐喻或更基础的东西，因为如果你假设有很多知识，那么很多人可能无法理解。

And so if you can tell a story that any student can understand, then you've really done your job.

因此，如果你能讲一个任何学生都能理解的故事，那么你就真正完成了你的工作。

And once you've learn that skill of being able to tell anyone who has no context, then it becomes much easier to turn to these other audiences that are closer and closer.

一旦你学会了能够向任何没有背景的人讲述的技巧，那么转向其他越来越接近的受众就会变得更加容易。

Lenny: When I asked you in our newsletter interview what one of the core philosophies of product managers is, in the way you think about product and the role of PM at Figma, an interesting thing that you highlighted is that to you, it's really important that PMs own the why of a product and an idea.

Lenny：当我在我们的时事通讯采访中问您产品经理的核心理念是什么时，您对产品和 Figma 的 PM 角色的看法是什么，您强调的一件有趣的事情是，对您来说，PM 拥有产品和想法的原因非常重要。

And I think it connects to what you're talking about, now.

我认为这与你现在谈论的内容有关。

I'm curious just why you think that's so important for product managers and why that's so core to the way you think about product, and at Figma.

我很好奇为什么你认为这对产品经理如此重要，以及为什么这对你和 Figma 的产品思考方式如此核心。

Yuhki Yamashita: I really can't remember why I heard this, but it really stuck with me because oftentimes, there's this debate about well, is a PM the person who comes up with the idea.

Yuhki Yamashita：我真的不记得为什么听到这个，但它确实困扰着我，因为经常有这样的争论：好的，是PM提出这个想法。

And the answer is usually no, it doesn't have to be at all.

答案通常是否定的，也根本不必如此。

And in many cases, in our case, your customers come up with a ton of different ideas and certainly, the what and how are things that are shared within the company and not something that PM uniquely drives.

在很多情况下，就我们而言，您的客户会提出大量不同的想法，当然，公司内部共享的内容和方式是什么，而不是 PM 独特推动的内容。

But I do think the why is something that I really always hold the PM uniquely responsible for.

但我确实认为原因是我一直认为总理负有独特的责任。

Yuhki Yamashita: And I think the place where I learned this, the importance of this the most, was actually first, at YouTube.

Yuhki Yamashita：我认为我最早学到这一点的地方，最重要的是 YouTube。

I had been working at Microsoft for a long time and I was early in my career, so I was just really focused on my, what we called, our feature crew, our engineer designer, our tester, and just writing specs that really specified exactly how everything works.

我已经在微软工作了很长一段时间，而且我还处于职业生涯的早期，所以我真的专注于我的，我们所谓的，我们的功能人员，我们的工程师设计师，我们的测试人员，并且只是编写真正指定一切如何工作的规范。

And so that was the Microsoft culture back then, and your specs had to be perfect, right?

这就是当时的微软文化，你的规格必须是完美的，对吧？

Yuhki Yamashita: Then moved over to YouTube, and all of a sudden, you're responsible for an entire app, and you have a pretty big team, and you cannot specify everything that happens.

Yuhki Yamashita：然后转到 YouTube，突然之间，你负责整个应用程序，并且你有一个相当大的团队，你无法指定发生的所有事情。

And so, naturally, designers and engineers are just making their own choices.

因此，很自然地，设计师和工程师只是在做出自己的选择。

Made is an error handling situation, and in Microsoft culture, you would've had a table that specifies exactly what happens during that error.

Made 是一种错误处理情况，在 Microsoft 文化中，您将拥有一个表来准确指定该错误期间发生的情况。

But in Google culture, it's like, okay, well the engineers and designers, they can figure it out.

但在谷歌文化中，好吧，工程师和设计师，他们可以解决这个问题。

Yuhki Yamashita: So then it's like, how do they make a really great decision?

Yuhki Yamashita：那么，他们是如何做出一个真正伟大的决定的呢？

How do they make all these local decisions that you're not a part of, how do you make it so that a great decision's made?

他们如何做出所有这些你没有参与的本地决策，你如何做出一个伟大的决定？

And if everyone has an understanding of why we're doing this, what problem we're solving, then people can make really great decisions.

如果每个人都了解我们为什么这样做、我们要解决什么问题，那么人们就可以做出非常好的决定。

It's the only way you can really scale.

这是您真正能够扩展的唯一方法。

So that's where it came from.

这就是它的来源。

Yuhki Yamashita: And then since then, I've started to realize, also, that there are other functions that do this well.

Yuhki Yamashita：从那时起，我也开始意识到还有其他函数可以很好地做到这一点。

So for example, our engineering team at Figma, whenever we do a retro or postmortem, we do this thing called five why's.

例如，我们 Figma 的工程团队，每当我们进行回顾或事后分析时，我们都会做这件事，称为“五个为什么”。

And it's the idea behind it, it's like, well, why did this happen, outage happen, okay, and why did that thing happen?

这就是它背后的想法，就像，为什么会发生这种情况，停电发生，好吧，为什么会发生那件事？

And go deep enough where you can find the root cause and go fix all those things.

深入到可以找到根本原因并解决所有这些问题的地方。

Yuhki Yamashita: And I think a PM can do this, too, which is a customer is asking for a feature, but then you would say, okay, why are they asking for it, and back up the problem.

Yuhki Yamashita：我认为 PM 也可以做到这一点，即客户要求一项功能，但然后你会说，好吧，他们为什么要求它，然后支持这个问题。

But I think there's one more step you can take, which is, why do they have that problem in the first place?

但我认为你还可以采取一步，那就是，为什么他们首先会遇到这个问题？

And maybe there's something there, and that could be an opportunity to make a bigger product impact by fixing that underlying condition that created the problem in the first place.

也许那里有什么东西，这可能是一个机会，通过修复最初造成问题的根本条件来产生更大的产品影响。

Lenny: That's so cool that you actually do the five whys.

莱尼：这太酷了，你真的做到了五个为什么。

I hear people talking about the five whys all the time, and I don't know, I haven't heard people actually using it.

我一直听到人们谈论五个为什么，但我不知道，我还没有听到人们实际使用它。

So you actually do this at your post-mortems, you said?

你说，所以你实际上是在事后剖析时这样做的？

Yuhki Yamashita: Yes.

山下雄贵：是的。

Engineering team that's accepting them, yeah.

工程团队正在接受它们，是的。

Lenny: That's so interesting.

莱尼：这太有趣了。

Can you talk a bit more about these postmortems?

您能多谈谈这些事后分析吗？

Is this just when something goes wrong or is this just every project you retrospective postmortem thing?

这只是出现问题的时候还是这只是每个项目的事后回顾？

Yuhki Yamashita: As it relates to five whys, it's more when something went wrong.

Yuhki Yamashita：因为它涉及五个为什么，所以更多的是当出现问题时。

But I do think we have a retro culture, , where there's always opportunity to make things better.

但我确实认为我们有一种复古文化，总有机会让事情变得更好。

And if you don't create the environments to talk about it, then some of those will go unaddressed forever, so.

如果你不创造谈论它的环境，那么其中一些问题将永远得不到解决，所以。

Lenny: Another attribute of the product team and how you build product at Figma that you shared that was really interesting is you mentioned that you just have an obsession with a proximity to customers, that you make sure your PMs and product team are really close to customers.

Lenny：产品团队的另一个属性以及您分享的 Figma 构建产品的方式非常有趣，您提到您只是痴迷于贴近客户，确保您的产品经理和产品团队真正贴近客户。

When you hear that, you're just, imagine everyone listening is like, oh yeah, we're really close to customers, we talk to customers all the time.

当您听到这个消息时，您会想象每个人都在听，哦，是的，我们非常接近客户，我们一直在与客户交谈。

Of course you got to talk to customers.

当然，你必须与客户交谈。

I'm curious what it is that, maybe, you think sets you apart, in terms of how you think about being close to customers, and if there's a story, maybe, of just, wow, this is how close we are to customers and maybe something that emerged out of that, that'd be really cool to hear.

我很好奇，也许你认为让你与众不同的是什么，在你如何看待与客户的亲密关系方面，如果有一个故事，也许，只是，哇，这就是我们与客户的亲密程度，也许从中出现的一些东西，听到这个真的很酷。

Yuhki Yamashita: Well, I think a lot of it starts with our origin story in many ways, which is that way back when, when Dylan, the small group of people were building Figma, this is the time when no one believed it was possible to have a design editor in the browser.

Yuhki Yamashita：嗯，我认为很多事情都从我们的起源故事开始，当时，当 Dylan 和一小群人构建 Figma 时，没有人相信浏览器中可以有一个设计编辑器。

And so it just seemed like science fiction, almost.

所以这看起来几乎就像科幻小说一样。

And yet, what Dylan did consistently throughout, was just put the product in front of designers, ask them for feedback, come back to them the next time with that feedback implemented, and it becomes better and better and better.

然而，迪伦自始至终所做的就是将产品摆在设计师面前，征求他们的反馈，下次实施反馈后再回到他们那里，产品就会变得越来越好。

Yuhki Yamashita: And at no moment was there a tentative expectation that the designer suddenly turns around and implements that tool in their organization.

Yuhki Yamashita：从来没有想过设计师会突然转身并在他们的组织中实施该工具。

It was really just about listening really carefully to what the community had to say, and through that process, making them evangelists.

这实际上只是认真倾听社区的意见，并通过这个过程，使他们成为福音传播者。

And that's where a lot of how Figma came to be and why we have such a strong connection with our community where we've actually, they've really helped shape the product to date, and there's a deep belief in that, and they're the ones in that are now advocating for Figma and helping us spread within the community and within their company.

这就是 Figma 诞生的原因，也是为什么我们与社区有着如此紧密的联系，实际上，他们确实帮助塑造了迄今为止的产品，并且对此有着深刻的信念，他们现在正在倡导 Figma 并帮助我们在社区和他们的公司内传播。

Yuhki Yamashita: So that's the backdrop for why we have such a strong connection with our customers, and there's a lot of things that you see.

Yuhki Yamashita：这就是我们与客户建立如此紧密联系的背景，您可以看到很多东西。

So for example, maybe someone on my team Sho, and oftentimes, Sho will tweet out to the community, here's what we're thinking, or we're actually thinking about focusing a lot more in prototyping.

例如，也许我团队中的某个人 Sho，Sho 通常会向社区发推文，这就是我们的想法，或者我们实际上正在考虑更多地关注原型设计。

What are the top problems you're seeing?

您遇到的最严重的问题是什么？

And people come back with all these different answers because everyone's passionate.

人们带着所有这些不同的答案回来，因为每个人都充满热情。

And we go in there and just look at all the feedback and understand what people are saying and just have a stronger pulse on how people are feeling.

我们进入那里，查看所有反馈并了解人们在说什么，并对人们的感受有更强烈的把握。

And that's not to say that everything is then implemented verbatim, but we really find it useful to feel like we have a sense of what people are thinking.

这并不是说一切都会逐字实施，但我们确实发现了解人们的想法很有用。

Yuhki Yamashita: And I think the most crazy version of it, maybe, is Dylan's always reading customer feedback.

Yuhki Yamashita：我认为最疯狂的版本也许是迪伦总是阅读客户反馈。

In fact, has reads the most customer feedback of all of us and has been doing that for a decade.

事实上，我们已经阅读了最多的客户反馈，并且已经这样做了十年。

And oftentimes, there used to be this thing where he would drop in tweets that he sees into different Slack channels to be like, hey, this seems concerning, or we're getting this feedback.

通常情况下，他会把看到的推文放到不同的 Slack 频道中，比如，嘿，这似乎令人担忧，或者我们正在收到反馈。

And it got to a point where we got big enough where people would feel like they had to drop everything and deal with that tweet.

我们已经发展到足够大的地步，人们会觉得他们必须放弃一切来处理那条推文。

Yuhki Yamashita: So Chris, our CTO, and I intervened.

Yuhki Yamashita：所以我们的 CTO Chris 和我进行了干预。

We created this new channel, private channel called Concerning Tweets, and it just, we're this small group of us that Dylan can drop us in.

我们创建了这个新频道，名为“Concerning Tweets”的私人频道，我们只是迪伦可以让我们加入的一小群人。

And these are tweets that aren't going viral, by any means.

无论如何，这些推文不会像病毒一样传播。

They're just things that you see is with one like, sometimes zero likes, but he feels there's an essence of truth to them and we make sure that we look at what's going on there and see if there isn't something much bigger that we should be focusing on.

它们只是你看到的有一个喜欢的东西，有时是零个喜欢，但他觉得它们有一个真理的本质，我们确保我们看看那里发生了什么，看看是否没有更大的事情是我们应该关注的。

But that's the extent to which someone like Dylan, from top down, implements this idea that we need to be staying close to what our users are saying.

但这就是像迪伦这样的人从上到下实施我们需要密切关注用户所说的想法的程度。

Lenny: That's an awesome idea for a channel, a way to contain that potential madness that it creates.

莱尼：对于一个频道来说，这是一个很棒的想法，一种遏制它所创造的潜在疯狂的方法。

Is there anything else you've learned around hearing feedback like that in a tweet, let's say, or just a few loud voices and deciding what to actually work on?

比如说，通过听到推文中的反馈，或者只是一些响亮的声音，然后决定实际做什么，你还学到了什么吗？

Do you have an approach there?

你有办法吗？

Just deciding what's worth paying attention to?

只是决定什么值得关注？

Yuhki Yamashita: As we built out our research and data functions, it's really important to balance out the vocal minority with what's actually happening.

Yuhki Yamashita：当我们建立我们的研究和数据功能时，平衡少数派与实际发生的事情非常重要。

So I really view some of those tweets more as canaries in the coal mine, in a way, and inputs into, many inputs we have around everything our customers could possibly be experiencing.

因此，在某种程度上，我确实将其中一些推文视为煤矿里的金丝雀，并投入到我们围绕客户可能遇到的一切而提供的许多投入中。

And it's important to realize that we have certain forums, like our support tickets, where customers are, tend to be much more dissatisfied.

重要的是要认识到，我们有某些论坛，例如我们的支持票，客户往往会更加不满意。

And we have other kinds of inputs that are sales conversations with prospects, where it's really more about perceptions around Figma, in some cases.

我们还有其他类型的输入，即与潜在客户的销售对话，在某些情况下，更多的是关于 Figma 的看法。

Yuhki Yamashita: And I think it's just important, especially as a product manager, to feel like you have this balanced portfolio of different kinds of feedback to know that you don't have any blind spots.

Yuhki Yamashita：我认为重要的是，特别是作为一名产品经理，感觉你拥有不同类型反馈的平衡组合，知道你没有任何盲点。

So I think that's one of the things that I focused a lot on when I came in, which is the Figma team is very good at Twitter and staying on top of the sentiments.

所以我认为这是我刚加入时非常关注的事情之一，那就是 Figma 团队非常擅长 Twitter 并掌控情绪。

And luckily for us, a lot of designers are on Twitter, but the reality is that most of our audience, at this point, probably aren't.

对我们来说幸运的是，很多设计师都在 Twitter 上，但现实是，目前我们的大多数受众可能还没有。

And so building our capabilities to extract feedback or more insight from those other sources, as well.

因此，我们还需要建立从其他来源获取反馈或更多见解的能力。

Lenny: That reminds me, I think Twitter was really instrumental to the beginnings of Figma.

Lenny：这让我想起了，我认为 Twitter 对 Figma 的诞生确实起到了重要作用。

I believe Dylan made this social graph of the most influential designers on Twitter, and that was his go-to market strategy, get those designers on Figma, and then I think he open sourced his code to do that.

我相信 Dylan 在 Twitter 上制作了这个最有影响力的设计师的社交图，这是他的市场策略，让这些设计师上 Figma，然后我认为他开源了他的代码来做到这一点。

Is that right?

是这样吗？

Yuhki Yamashita: Yeah, that sounds right to me.

Yuhki Yamashita：是的，这对我来说是正确的。

And he is very intentional about which designers we need to win over.

对于我们需要赢得哪些设计师的支持，他非常有意识。

I think it was very novel at time.

我认为这在当时是非常新奇的。

Lenny: What is it like to work with Dylan Field?

莱尼：与迪伦·菲尔德合作感觉如何？

As an outsider, he's a legend, feels like he's an incredibly smart, talented, hardworking, CO. There's always tension a little bit between a Chief Product Officer and a CO, and so I'm just curious, what do you like to work with as a product leader?

作为一个局外人，他是一个传奇人物，感觉他是一个非常聪明、有才华、勤奋的 CO。首席产品官和 CO 之间总是有点紧张，所以我很好奇，作为产品负责人，你喜欢与什么人一起工作？

And then, is there, I don't know, a memory that comes to mind of just a way that encapsulates what it's like to work with Dylan?

然后，我不知道，是否有一种记忆浮现在我的脑海中，概括了与迪伦合作的感觉？

Yuhki Yamashita: We're very different, actually.

Yuhki Yamashita：实际上我们非常不同。

And Dylan is very, he's very based on intuition and instinct.

迪伦非常非常依赖直觉和本能。

And that intuition is actually built off of thousands and hundreds of thousands of customer interactions where he might look at something and be like, "You know what?

这种直觉实际上是建立在成千上万次客户互动的基础上的，他可能会在看到某些东西时说：“你知道吗？

This isn't going to land well," or, "Here's the biggest problem right now." And you're like, well, how does it conclude that?

这不会有很好的效果，”或者，“这是现在最大的问题。”你会想，那么，它是如何得出这个结论的呢？

And part of my job is to build out that logic streak for him of how did you arrive at that conclusion so that people can understand that at scale, in a way.

我工作的一部分就是为他建立逻辑，说明你是如何得出这个结论的，以便人们能够在某种程度上理解这一点。

But he's very much about that.

但他非常重视这一点。

Yuhki Yamashita: Or I think there's a way which, sometimes, it's a product manager, you want to lay out a problem and say, okay, we're going to first focus on this problem, and then these three approaches.

Yuhki Yamashita：或者我认为有一种方法，有时，产品经理想要提出一个问题，然后说，好吧，我们将首先关注这个问题，然后是这三种方法。

We're going to take this approach and have a review at every step along the way.

我们将采用这种方法，并对整个过程中的每一步进行审查。

But for Dylan, I think, it's very hard for him to really fully get bought into it until he sees the end implementation to viscerally feel if this is a good solution or not.

但对于迪伦来说，我认为，在他看到最终的实现并本能地感受到这是否是一个好的解决方案之前，他很难真正完全投入其中。

And so I think that's the kind of thinker he is where he really needs to see it to feel it.

所以我认为他就是那种思想家，他真正需要看到它才能感受到它。

But it's not totally random.

但这并不是完全随机的。

It's based on all these interactions with customers and somehow encoded in him to build up some of those intuitions.

它基于与客户的所有这些互动，并以某种方式编码在他体内，以建立其中一些直觉。

Yuhki Yamashita: And I think one of the things that's really interesting about him is that he actually really cares very deeply about any given user and how they're feeling about Figma.

Yuhki Yamashita：我认为他真正有趣的一件事是，他实际上非常关心任何特定用户以及他们对 Figma 的感受。

I remember when, during the height of the pandemic, we were doing a one-on-one walking around Delores Park, because this is the era where you would take meetings, if you take meetings, they're all outside, and then he needed to use the bathroom.

我记得在疫情最严重的时候，我们在德洛丽丝公园附近进行一对一的散步，因为这是一个你要开会的时代，如果你开会，他们都在外面，然后他需要使用卫生间。

So he came out to my house in the Castro, he used the bathroom, and then he met my partner, and my partner was on Figma, had Figma pulled up because he is just doing work.

所以他来到我在卡斯特罗的家，他使用了浴室，然后他遇到了我的伴侣，我的伴侣在 Figma 上，Figma 被拉掉了，因为他只是在工作。

And then Dylan just went straight in there and wanted to ask what the biggest problems were or what's not working, and they started geeking out on some issue around Google fonts, and this is the first major interaction between the two of them.

然后迪伦就径直走进去，想问最大的问题是什么，或者什么不起作用，然后他们开始研究有关谷歌字体的一些问题，这是他们两人之间的第一次重大互动。

Yuhki Yamashita: But it's one of those things where that's how much Dylan cares.

Yuhki Yamashita：但这就是迪伦非常关心的事情之一。

And on one level it's just easy to say, "Hey, this is a single user who just happens to be using your product," and be dismissive with it or not care that deeply because you think you already know all the biggest problems, but that's not his attitude.

在某种程度上，很容易说，“嘿，这是一个恰好在使用你的产品的单一用户”，然后对此不屑一顾或不太关心，因为你认为你已经知道所有最大的问题，但这不是他的态度。

And so that's the level of, I guess, customer obsession, if you will, that he exhibits and then, in turn, informs his intuitions.

所以，我想，如果你愿意的话，这就是他所表现出的客户痴迷程度，然后反过来又告诉了他的直觉。

Lenny: That's amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

Figma is 10 years old at this point.

此时 Figma 已经 10 岁了。

He's been at this for a long time, like a decade.

他从事这个工作已经很长时间了，大概有十年了。

And the fact that he's still so obsessed with just a random person just using Figma and he's taken the opportunity to experience it in real time every chance he gets, sounds like.

事实上，他仍然如此痴迷于一个随机使用 Figma 的人，并且他抓住每一个机会实时体验它，听起来像是这样。

Lenny: Hey, Ashley, Head of Marketing at Flatfile, how many B2B SaaS companies would you estimate need to import CSP files from their customers?

Lenny：嘿，Ashley，Flatfile 的营销主管，您估计有多少家 B2B SaaS 公司需要从客户那里导入 CSP 文件？

Lenny: And how many of them screw that up, and what happens when they do?

莱尼：有多少人把事情搞砸了，当他们这样做时会发生什么？

Ashley: Well, based on our data, about a third of people will consider switching to another company after just one bad experience during onboarding.

阿什利：嗯，根据我们的数据，大约三分之一的人在入职期间经历过一次糟糕的经历后就会考虑跳槽到另一家公司。

So if your CSP importer doesn't work right, which is super common, considering a customer files are chalk full of unexpected data and formatting, they'll leave.

因此，如果您的 CSP 导入程序无法正常工作（这种情况非常常见），考虑到客户文件中充满了意外的数据和格式，他们就会离开。

Lenny: I am 0% surprised to hear that.

Lenny：听到这个消息我感到 0% 惊讶。

I've consistently seen that improving onboarding is one of the highest leverage opportunities for both signup conversion and increasing long-term retention.

我一直认为，改善入职是注册转化和提高长期保留的最高杠杆机会之一。

Getting people to your a-ha moment more quickly and reliably is so incredibly important.

让人们更快、更可靠地进入顿悟时刻非常重要。

Ashley: Totally.

阿什利：完全可以。

It's incredible to see how our customers like Square, Spotify and Zora are able to grow their businesses on top of Flatfile.

看到 Square、Spotify 和 Zora 等客户如何能够在 Flatfile 上发展业务，真是令人难以置信。

It's because Wallace data onboarding acts like a catalyst to get them and their customers where they need to go faster.

这是因为华莱士数据引导就像催化剂一样，让他们及其客户更快地到达他们需要的地方。

Lenny: If you'd like to learn more or get started, check out Flatfile at flatfile.com/lenny.

Lenny：如果您想了解更多信息或开始使用，请访问 flatfile.com/lenny 查看 Flatfile。

Lenny: As an outsider, it feels like Figma is just always firing in all cylinders, shipping the best product.

Lenny：作为一个局外人，感觉 Figma 总是在全力以赴，推出最好的产品。

People love it.

人们喜欢它。

I use it, I should've mentioned this, but I use it probably every day for my newsletter for illustrations and banners and all this stuff.

我使用它，我应该提到这一点，但我可能每天都会在我的时事通讯中使用它来绘制插图、横幅和所有这些东西。

Yeah, I don't know what I do without it.

是的，我不知道没有它我该怎么办。

And it always feels like Figma is just killing it.

而且总感觉 Figma 正在扼杀它。

I know that's never the reality.

我知道这永远不是现实。

I'm curious, is there a story of something that just, maybe, didn't work out the way you hoped?

我很好奇，是否有一个故事，也许只是没有按照你希望的方式发展？

Whether it's a feature, a launch, or something like that that just shows people that it's, not everything always works out.

无论是一项功能、发布还是类似的东西，只是向人们表明它是这样的，但并非一切总是顺利。

Yuhki Yamashita: We run experiments all the time that don't come back with winning results, and we certainly have built a lot of more complex features that took a while to take off.

Yuhki Yamashita：我们一直在进行实验，但没有取得成功的结果，而且我们当然已经构建了许多更复杂的功能，但需要一段时间才能成功。

Yuhki Yamashita: So a good example of this is in the design system space, we have something called branching and merging.

Yuhki Yamashita：一个很好的例子是在设计系统空间中，我们有一种叫做分支和合并的东西。

And branching and merging is this workflow of maybe you're building a really complex design system, and then you don't want anyone ever randomly touching your components that are used by thousands of other projects, so you create this workflow of, someone, maybe, effectively suggesting a change, you're reviewing it and then pushing it in.

分支和合并是这个工作流程，也许您正在构建一个非常复杂的设计系统，然后您不希望任何人随机触摸您的组件，这些组件被数千个其他项目使用，因此您创建了这个工作流程，某人，也许有效地建议了更改，您正在审查它，然后将其推进。

Yuhki Yamashita: And so, in theory, makes a lot of sense and things that our customers asked us for, but once we built it, in the initial stages, just didn't really see that much adoption and didn't feel great because it's a really big investment for us.

Yuhki Yamashita：因此，从理论上讲，客户要求我们提供的东西很有意义，但是一旦我们在初始阶段构建了它，并没有真正看到那么多的采用，感觉也不是很好，因为这对我们来说是一项非常大的投资。

It's a lot of work that we put into it and there's just many different reasons.

我们投入了大量的工作，而且有很多不同的原因。

Some of it was performance, some of it was, this is a foreign workflow and it just takes time, and us helping customers implement some of those workflows, we realized some gaps because we don't really use it that much ourselves.

有些是性能，有些是，这是一个外国工作流程，它只是需要时间，我们帮助客户实现其中一些工作流程，我们意识到一些差距，因为我们自己并没有真正使用它。

Yuhki Yamashita: And so, I think as we're getting bigger, one of the things that I'm realizing is that we're starting to build a lot of features that are not, necessarily, for organizations like ours.

Yuhki Yamashita：所以，我认为随着我们变得越来越大，我意识到的一件事是我们开始构建很多不一定适合像我们这样的组织的功能。

And when we do that, we really need to be creative about how we understand how effective those are because we've had such a strong culture of internal testing and dogs looting, and those are the things that really helped make sure the quality of our product was good enough.

当我们这样做时，我们确实需要创造性地了解如何理解这些措施的有效性，因为我们拥有如此强大的内部测试和狗抢劫文化，而这些才是真正有助于确保我们产品质量足够好的事情。

But now we're working with really new types of customers and needing to push ourselves and build that muscle, as well.

但现在我们正在与真正的新型客户合作，并且也需要鞭策自己并增强这种力量。

Lenny: Speaking of high quality software, again, I'll repeat, I think Figma is one of the most beloved software products.

Lenny：说到高质量软件，我再次重复一遍，我认为 Figma 是最受欢迎的软件产品之一。

It's become central to a lot of the ways people work.

它已成为人们许多工作方式的核心。

It's also, I think, one of the fastest growing SaaS products, in general.

我认为，总的来说，它也是增长最快的 SaaS 产品之一。

And I don't know, this is maybe the ultimate softball question, but I'm just curious, what is it that you do at Figma to build such high quality software?

我不知道，这可能是终极垒球问题，但我只是很好奇，你们在 Figma 是做什么来构建如此高质量的软件的？

Because it's rare for B2B software, especially.

因为这对于 B2B 软件来说尤其罕见。

What do you do as a product leader, as a product team to just set this high bar, make sure that the stuff that you put out is great consistently, and the more tactical the better?

作为一个产品负责人，作为一个产品团队，你会做什么来设定这个高标准，确保你推出的东西始终如一，并且越有策略性越好？

Yuhki Yamashita: It's so important that you're using your own products.

Yuhki Yamashita：使用自己的产品非常重要。

And I think we're in a very lucky position where all of us can get creative around using Figma in some way.

我认为我们处于一个非常幸运的位置，我们所有人都可以以某种方式利用 Figma 发挥创意。

And obviously, designers are the, internally within Figma, are the most vocal and the ones who are in the product six hours a day, essentially.

显然，在 Figma 内部，设计师是最有发言权的人，基本上是每天花六个小时在产品中的人。

But even for PMs, one of the first things I did when I arrived was we were a little bit more of a memo culture, and I was like, you know what?

但即使对于产品经理来说，我到达后做的第一件事就是我们有更多的备忘录文化，我当时想，你知道吗？

We should be a deck culture because we can build those decks in Figma, and just that act alone allows you to encounter a lot of issues and for you to get familiar with it.

我们应该是一种套牌文化，因为我们可以在 Figma 中构建这些套牌，仅仅这一行为就可以让你遇到很多问题并让你熟悉它。

Yuhki Yamashita: And so I think there are ways in which, sometimes, you have to get creative to enable your company, your entire company to use a product more.

Yuhki Yamashita：所以我认为，有时，你必须发挥创造力，让你的公司、整个公司更多地使用产品。

Or as an example, recently, we just did calibrations for performance reviews in FigJam, and our Head of Design, Noah, came up with this amazing template and we distributed it through HR and that was another reason for everyone to use FigJam.

或者举个例子，最近，我们刚刚在 FigJam 中对绩效评估进行了校准，我们的设计主管 Noah 提出了这个令人惊叹的模板，我们通过 HR 分发了它，这是每个人使用 FigJam 的另一个原因。

And so that's the biggest thing.

这是最重要的事情。

The more hours people are spending inside your product, internally, I think, just naturally becomes better.

我认为，人们在你的产品上花费的时间越多，内部自然会变得更好。

Because a lot of times, it's not just about people raising their hands and saying this is the problem, it's more about you just want to make your own workflows, your own day-to-day better, and derive satisfaction from improving that.

因为很多时候，这不仅仅是人们举手说这就是问题所在，更多的是你只是想让自己的工作流程、自己的日常工作变得更好，并从改进中获得满足感。

Lenny: So the takeaway there is get your product teams to use the product as often as possible.

Lenny：所以要点是让你的产品团队尽可能频繁地使用该产品。

That is a really clever way of doing that at Figma.

在 Figma 中，这是一个非常聪明的方法。

I know you mentioned in our newsletter interview that you switch from memos to decks.

我知道您在我们的时事通讯采访中提到您从备忘录转向了甲板。

Usually, it goes the other way around, and now I get the second order effects of that where people are building their decks in Figma.

通常，情况恰恰相反，现在我得到了人们在 Figma 中构建套牌的二阶效果。

That is very clever, and not everyone's building collaboration software, but that is a really clever idea.

这非常聪明，虽然不是每个人都在构建协作软件，但这是一个非常聪明的想法。

And I think there's probably a bit of trickle down from Dylan's obsession with the product in making it, just continuing to just be obsessed with making a great experience combined with that, people using the product and this trickle down of we really need to make this as awesome as possible.

我认为迪伦在制作产品时对产品的痴迷可能会带来一点滴滴的影响，只是继续痴迷于创造一种伟大的体验，人们使用该产品，而这种滴滴的滴滴我们真的需要让它尽可能地棒。

Ashley: There are other companies, for example, when I was at Uber, especially working on the driver's side, of course we went out and driving, and that speaks to some aspects of it.

阿什利：还有其他公司，比如我在Uber的时候，特别是在司机方面工作，当然我们出去开车，这说明了它的某些方面。

But one of the things that I've realized is when you are logging a bug and you add some engineers to it, to have them look into it, the degree of motivation is so different if that engineer has, somehow, experienced a problem in some way.

但我意识到的一件事是，当你记录一个错误并向其中添加一些工程师，让他们调查它时，如果该工程师以某种方式遇到了问题，那么动机的程度就会大不相同。

Ashley: So for example, everyone at Uber would take Ubers into work, and if an engineer working a driver app saw a driver struggling with something, they would find it embarrassing and feel personally accountable to go and fix that.

阿什利：举个例子，Uber 的每个人都会带 Uber 去工作，如果一个开发司机应用程序的工程师看到司机遇到了什么困难，他们会觉得很尴尬，并觉得自己有责任去解决这个问题。

And when you can create that sense of personal accountability, then all these crazy things happen and all this progress happens.

当你能够建立起个人责任感时，所有这些疯狂的事情就会发生，所有这些进步就会发生。

So I think for us, as getting creative at Uber about, okay, well how do we increase those interaction points at the point where, if someone building feels like they have some kind of personal relationship with the end user, and this is what happens, at Figma, too, where a lot of our designers feel personally accountable, in a way, because all their customers are people they already know in the community on Twitter and all those kinds of things, so they feel like they have to put something out there that's defensible or that they're really proud of.

所以我认为，对于我们来说，在 Uber 发挥创意，好吧，如果有人觉得自己与最终用户建立了某种个人关系，那么我们如何增加这些互动点，这也是 Figma 所发生的情况，在某种程度上，我们的很多设计师都感到个人负有责任，因为他们所有的客户都是他们在 Twitter 社区中已经认识的人以及所有这些类型的东西，所以他们觉得他们必须放一些有道理的东西，或者他们确实是这样的东西。自豪。

So I think that personal accountability can really make a difference.

所以我认为个人责任确实可以发挥作用。

Lenny: That begs a question of, I imagine this engineer at Uber coming back to their desk and like, I've got to fix this bug.

莱尼：这就引出了一个问题，我想 Uber 的这位工程师回到他们的办公桌前会说，我必须修复这个错误。

And then their PM's like, no, we got goals to hit, here's our priorities, we got this roadmap, we don't have time to fix this right now.

然后他们的 PM 说，不，我们有目标要实现，这是我们的优先事项，我们有这个路线图，我们现在没有时间解决这个问题。

It's just one random bug.

这只是一个随机错误。

And so there's a two part question, just like you have a approach to that, do you encourage engineers, designers just fix stuff that seems broken/you mentioned that you have a fun experience with OKRs and how you've approached OKRs at Figma, and you've gone back and forth a little bit.

所以有一个由两部分组成的问题，就像你有一个方法一样，你是否鼓励工程师、设计师修复那些看起来有问题的东西/你提到你在 OKR 方面有一个有趣的经历，以及你在 Figma 是如何处理 OKR 的，你来来回回了一点。

And so maybe, as a second part, just talking about your experience with OKRs at Figma.

因此，作为第二部分，也许只是谈谈您在 Figma 的 OKR 体验。

Yuhki Yamashita: The first part, I would say that I think one of the most powerful things, especially for startups, is that bottoms up energy, and maybe a developer noticing something is wrong and just going off and fixing it.

Yuhki Yamashita：第一部分，我想说的是，我认为最强大的事情之一，尤其是对于初创公司来说，是自下而上的能量，也许开发人员注意到某些问题，然后就开始修复它。

And for the most part, I try not to get in the way of that because if people are doing that constantly, and everyone the company is trying to make the product better, that is sometimes a way more effective way to improve the quality of experience than this top down of, oh, let's define this quality experience metric and try to change all the things, because you might miss these things.

在大多数情况下，我尽量不妨碍这一点，因为如果人们不断这样做，并且公司的每个人都在努力使产品变得更好，那么有时这是一种比自上而下的更有效的提高体验质量的方法，哦，让我们定义这个质量体验指标并尝试改变所有的事情，因为你可能会错过这些事情。

So that's one aspect.

这是一方面。

Yuhki Yamashita: And the second thing is, I think a lot of PMs have grown to realize this, which is, if you ask an engineer about how much time it'll cost to go and build something, and it's something that they came up with or they're advocating for, it's almost always half the time as something that you are asking for, as a PM.

Yuhki Yamashita：第二件事是，我认为很多 PM 已经意识到这一点，也就是说，如果你问一位工程师建造某样东西需要多少时间，而这是他们想出的或他们提倡的东西，那么几乎总是有一半的时间是你作为 PM 要求的东西。

And that motivation is so different.

而且这种动机是如此不同。

Yuhki Yamashita: And that's why getting the buy-in of developers is really important, because you want to feel like they're personally vested in this problem, and then, all of a sudden, their willingness or their creativity, or all these things spike.

Yuhki Yamashita：这就是为什么获得开发人员的支持非常重要，因为你想要感觉他们个人对这个问题有归属感，然后，突然间，他们的意愿或创造力，或者所有这些东西都会激增。

And so when you think about all those things, when there's a situation where an engineer or a designer's trying to fix a real custom problem, I'm like, by all means.So that's on that.

因此，当你考虑所有这些事情时，当工程师或设计师试图解决真正的定制问题时，我会想，无论如何。所以就是这样。

Yuhki Yamashita: OKR is totally bigger topic, and maybe I'll set the conflicts of why I have such this love-hate relationship with it, which is that a lot of my career, I've actually just worked on core experiences, and OKRs were the bane of my existence, in a way.

Yuhki Yamashita：OKR 是一个更大的话题，也许我会设置冲突，解释为什么我对此又爱又恨，也就是说，在我职业生涯的大部分时间里，我实际上只是在研究核心经验，而 OKR 在某种程度上是我存在的祸根。

Because when you're working on a core experience, sometimes you're just, I'm just trying to make the experience better.

因为当你致力于核心体验时，有时你只是，我只是想让体验变得更好。

And sure, I can come up with this BS way to measure what that looks like, but that's not what I'm thinking about every day, anyway.

当然，我可以想出这种胡说八道的方法来衡量它的样子，但这不是我每天都在想的事情，无论如何。

So it just seems very performative, and there's just a lot of work that goes into it.

所以它看起来非常具有表演性，而且需要做很多工作。

Yuhki Yamashita: And you encounter one of two situations.

Yuhki Yamashita：你会遇到两种情况之一。

One is, you come up with some secondary metric that nobody actually cares about that, technically, you can measure and, technically, you can move, but you haven't actually proven that it really matters.

一是，你提出了一些没人真正关心的次要指标，从技术上讲，你可以衡量，从技术上讲，你可以移动，但你实际上并没有证明它真的很重要。

So maybe it is some satisfaction metric that you have on some survey, but you haven't actually done the work to show that, that actually has correlations with retention or anything that actually "matters for real" in the business, or it's some weird usage metric or something like that.

因此，也许这是您在某些调查中获得的一些满意度指标，但您实际上并没有做工作来证明它实际上与保留率或业务中真正“重要”的任何东西相关，或者它是一些奇怪的使用指标或类似的东西。

Yuhki Yamashita: And then the other extreme is to say, no, we're going to be ambitious and we're going to send it for business goals.

Yuhki Yamashita：另一个极端是说，不，我们将雄心勃勃，我们将把它发送给商业目标。

So for example, even if I was the PM for the rider experience at Uber, I'd be like, you know what?

举例来说，即使我是 Uber 的乘客体验 PM，我也会想，你知道吗？

We're going to contribute incremental trips because the experience is going to be so good that we can get more people to come back.

我们将贡献增量旅行，因为体验会非常好，我们可以让更多的人回来。

And I think the reality for a lot of that is, it's a metric that you don't have full control over or there are many hops until it can affect it, and okay, well maybe we can make the experience better and maybe that improves your attention and maybe this.

我认为现实情况是，这是一个你无法完全控制的指标，或者有很多跳跃，直到它可以影响它，好吧，也许我们可以让体验更好，也许这可以提高你的注意力，也许这样。

And by the time you get there, you actually can't even prove that you moved the top level metrics.

当你到达那里时，你实际上甚至无法证明你移动了顶级指标。

So either you anchor something that matters, but you can't move, or you anchor something that you can't move but doesn't actually matter.

因此，要么你锚定一些重要的东西，但你无法移动，要么你锚定一些你无法移动但实际上并不重要的东西。

So that's the relationship I've had with , so even it's really frustrating.

这就是我和 的关系，所以即使这样也很令人沮丧。

Yuhki Yamashita: So when I write that thinking about, one of the things I realized is that we had OKRs, but people were treating it almost as a to-do list or a task list of, okay, here's how, by the end of quarter, I need to complete these tasks and then I'll feel like I did my job, kind of thing.

Yuhki Yamashita：所以，当我写下这个想法时，我意识到我们有 OKR，但人们几乎将其视为待办事项列表或任务列表，好吧，这就是如何在季度末之前完成这些任务，然后我会觉得我做了我的工作，类似的事情。

And we would have these dreadful meetings where we go through these spreadsheets and have people stand up in front of everyone and talk about those commitments, or those key results, rather.

我们会召开这些可怕的会议，我们会浏览这些电子表格，让人们站在所有人面前谈论这些承诺，或者更确切地说，那些关键结果。

But they were dreadful for a reason, which is that you just couldn't really understand what the team actually really cared about.

但它们之所以可怕是有原因的，那就是你无法真正理解团队真正关心的是什么。

And it got to this point where we had all these, and this is similar to the secondary metric problem, but either you couldn't approve that you actually moved it, or you're trying to work on something that I don't actually understand why it's useful.

到了这一点，我们已经拥有了所有这些，这类似于次要度量问题，但要么你不能批准你实际移动它，要么你正在尝试做一些我实际上不明白为什么它有用的事情。

Yuhki Yamashita: And so that was when I deprecated it and said, "I just want to understand your headline.

Yuhki Yamashita：那时我就反对它并说：“我只是想了解你的标题。

What are you trying to do, philosophically?" And just don't stress about whether you can measure it or not.

从哲学角度来说，你想做什么？”并且不要担心是否可以测量它。

I just don't understand what you're optimizing for, and let's first have that to date.

我只是不明白你要优化什么，让我们首先了解一下。

And then once we get there, then let's talk about, okay, well what are some ways that you can measure it?

一旦我们到达那里，我们就来谈谈，好吧，有哪些方法可以衡量它？

And some of it's qualitative, so it's quantitative, and that's fine.

其中一些是定性的，所以是定量的，这很好。

And I almost feel like sometimes, it's better to take the report card approach of saying, Hey, just give yourself a score, tell me how you derive that score, let's all understand that the metrics and those inputs that go into it can change over time, and we're going to get more sophisticated about how we measure it.

我几乎觉得有时，最好采用成绩单的方法说，嘿，给自己一个分数，告诉我你是如何得出这个分数的，让我们都明白，指标和输入的内容可能会随着时间的推移而变化，我们将更加复杂地了解如何衡量它。

But at least everyone understands what on earth you're trying to go for.

但至少每个人都明白你到底想追求什么。

Yuhki Yamashita: So that's where I moved in my first year, I would say, and then we hired a Head of Data who is a friend of mine from Uber, too.

Yuhki Yamashita：我想说，这就是我第一年搬到的地方，然后我们聘请了一位数据主管，他也是我在 Uber 的朋友。

And one of the things she felt was, okay, but it's still very loosey goosey, and super subjective, so let's just try to bring OKRs back and see if we can just do them better next time.

她的感受之一是，好吧，但这仍然非常松散，而且非常主观，所以让我们尝试恢复 OKR，看看下次是否可以做得更好。

And so we've done that, and they were definitely better than when I first arrived just because we had a data science team and we had more rigor around metrics and things like that.

所以我们已经做到了，他们肯定比我刚来的时候更好，因为我们有一个数据科学团队，而且我们对指标和类似的事情有更严格的要求。

But again, this time it was less about not understanding what people were doing, but more not understanding if teams are actually committed to moving those OKRs.

但同样，这一次不是不了解人们在做什么，而是不了解团队是否真正致力于推动这些 OKR。

And one of the problems that you find is we have these OKRs, but they feel like these post-rationalizations of the projects that you're working on, anyway.

您发现的问题之一是我们有这些 OKR，但无论如何，它们感觉像是您正在从事的项目的后期合理化。

Yuhki Yamashita: And at the end the quarter, you come back and see if those OKRs move, fingers crossed.

Yuhki Yamashita：在季度结束时，你会回来看看这些 OKR 是否发生变化，祈祷吧。

But if you stop an engineer in the middle of the hallway or the virtual hallway, so to speak, and ask them, okay, what are your team's biggest goals or OKRs?

但是，如果您在走廊或虚拟走廊中间拦住一名工程师，并问他们，好吧，您团队的最大目标或 OKR 是什么？

, they wouldn't be able to say it.

，他们就不能说出来。

They're just like, well, I'm working on this project that's really important.

他们就像，嗯，我正在做这个非常重要的项目。

And so it's, well, what's the point of publishing this OKR if you're actually not thinking about moving it on a daily basis almost, right?

因此，如果您实际上几乎没有考虑每天移动它，那么发布此 OKR 的意义何在，对吗？

Yuhki Yamashita: And so that's when we've tried to experiment with this terminology, well, maybe if we should call it commitments instead, people would take it a little bit more seriously.

Yuhki Yamashita：所以当我们尝试尝试这个术语时，好吧，也许如果我们应该称之为承诺，人们会更认真地对待它。

And it's my belief that oftentimes, commitments are this care between the why and the what, and sometimes the face of the commitment is the what.

我相信，很多时候，承诺就是对“为什么”和“内容”之间的关注，有时承诺的表面就是“内容”。

Yuhki Yamashita: It's a project and there are many why's behind it, or it's the why and there are many projects behind it.

Yuhki Yamashita：这是一个项目，它背后有很多原因，或者它就是原因，它背后有很多项目。

So that what's trying to formalize that idea, but it definitely felt a little bit complicated, a little bit.

因此，我们试图将这个想法形式化，但确实感觉有点复杂，有点。

Sometimes people are like, well, OKRs exist for a reason and this is, basically, an OKR with just a different name.

有时人们会说，好吧，OKR 的存在是有原因的，而这基本上就是一个只是名称不同的 OKR。

So my honest sense is we still haven't figured it out and we're still iterating on a bunch of different things, but I think I've developed some philosophies around it, which is, no matter what you call it, because it doesn't matter as much.

所以我的诚实感觉是，我们仍然没有弄清楚，我们仍在迭代一堆不同的事情，但我认为我已经围绕它发展了一些哲学，也就是说，无论你怎么称呼它，因为它并不那么重要。

Yuhki Yamashita: I think that, for me, there are three things that really matter about the good OKR, and one is legibility.

Yuhki Yamashita：我认为，对我来说，好的 OKR 真正重要的是三件事，一是易读性。

People look at it and understand what it is, and it's not some weird obfuscated metric that doesn't mean anything to anyone.

人们看着它并理解它是什么，这不是一些对任何人都没有任何意义的奇怪的混淆指标。

I think actionability, I want OKR to inspire action.

我认为可操作性，我希望 OKR 能够激发行动。

You look at that and you're like, it's stirs action, makes me want to do something differently.

你看着它，你会想，它激发了行动，让我想做一些不同的事情。

And the third one is authenticity, which is, does this actually, honestly depict what you're doing, what you're trying to do on a day-to-day basis?

第三个是真实性，也就是说，这是否真的、诚实地描述了你每天正在做的事情、你试图做的事情？

Because if it doesn't, then it's hard for me to trust that, that it matters.

因为如果没有，那么我就很难相信它很重要。

Or if that's something that just happens to describe what you're doing but isn't really connected in a meaningful way, then I question the value of it all.

或者，如果这只是碰巧描述了你正在做的事情，但并没有真正以有意义的方式联系起来，那么我会质疑这一切的价值。

Yuhki Yamashita: So that's why I am in the process.

Yuhki Yamashita：这就是我参与这个过程的原因。

But I definitely am all ears to advice around this kind of stuff, because I feel like we haven't quite cracked the code.

但我绝对会倾听有关此类问题的建议，因为我觉得我们还没有完全破解密码。

Lenny: I love hearing that.

莱尼：我喜欢听这个。

That ,hole journey.

那个洞的旅程。

I feel like you always hear from product teams, here's what we do now.

我觉得你总是听到产品团队的声音，这就是我们现在所做的。

You never hear, here's the experiments we've been through, here's what we've tried, here's what worked for a while, here's what doesn't work now, and here's what we're doing now.

你永远不会听到，这是我们经历过的实验，这是我们尝试过的，这是暂时有效的，这是现在不起作用的，这是我们现在正在做的。

So it's really cool just to hear all the experimentation you've done.

所以听到你所做的所有实验真是太酷了。

Clearly, Figma is a company where you encourage experimentation and trying new things that aren't working, and it's cool they have the flexibility to just like, let's just do headlines for now, and no more specific goal metrics.

显然，Figma 是一家鼓励实验和尝试行不通的新事物的公司，很酷的是，他们可以灵活地喜欢，让我们现在只做头条新闻，而不是更具体的目标指标。

We're just going to build things that we think are important.

我们只是要构建我们认为重要的东西。

Lenny: And in the newsletter post, for folks that are listening, you actually show the templates that you're using these days for planning your projects and laying out your OKRs, so folks can check those out if they're interested in seeing how you're doing that, now.

Lenny：在时事通讯帖子中，对于正在收听的人们，您实际上展示了您这些天用来规划项目和制定 OKR 的模板，因此如果人们有兴趣了解您现在是如何做到这一点的，可以查看这些模板。

You also mentioned you've hired this awesome data scientist, and maybe just expanding that further, I imagine a lot of the success of Figma and the product that you built is the people that you hire.

您还提到您已经聘请了一位出色的数据科学家，也许只是进一步扩展，我想 Figma 的成功和您构建的产品很大程度上取决于您雇用的人员。

At Figma, I believe you have 22 product managers, which sounds very small for a company like Figma, and I imagine they're all amazing.

在 Figma，我相信有 22 名产品经理，这对于 Figma 这样的公司来说听起来很小，但我想他们都很棒。

I'm curious what you look for in product leaders and product managers that you hire that, maybe, other folks aren't as focused on, and just what does the interview process look like at Figma?

我很好奇你在聘用的产品领导者和产品经理中寻找什么，也许其他人并不那么关注，Figma 的面试过程是什么样的？

Yuhki Yamashita: Yeah, I shared some of these things.

Yuhki Yamashita：是的，我分享了其中一些事情。

I really feel passionately about storytelling, and not to give it away or anything, but one of my favorite interview questions is asking, "describe to me a time when you're part of controversial product decision, and what did you do," and all those things.

我真的很热衷于讲故事，而不是放弃它或任何东西，但我最喜欢的面试问题之一是问，“向我描述一下当你参与有争议的产品决策时，你做了什么，”以及所有这些事情。

And I think it's really revealing because if they can set up this conflict and understand why this problem was really important and represent both sides in such that you can understand why that conflict existed in the first place, then they can do it in this even-keeled way, where you realize that they can take on these different perspectives.

我认为这确实很有启发性，因为如果他们能够引发这场冲突，理解为什么这个问题真的很重要，并代表双方，这样你就能理解为什么冲突首先存在，那么他们就能以这种平稳的方式做到这一点，你意识到他们可以采取这些不同的观点。

You start to learn a lot about that person, I think.

我想，你开始对那个人了解很多。

Yuhki Yamashita: Or sometimes, I just ask them for basic things, okay, talk about a big problem that you worked on.

Yuhki Yamashita：或者有时候，我只是问他们一些基本的事情，好吧，谈谈你正在解决的一个大问题。

And the thought experiment, for me, is always coming out of that, do I feel compelled to work on that problem?

对我来说，思想实验总是由此而来，我是否觉得有必要解决这个问题？

And no matter how boring it sounds on the surface, I think a really great product manager can cash something, it's like, well, this is why it's so existential for us, and this why it's so interesting, and really rally the troops up.

不管表面上听起来多么无聊，我认为一个真正伟大的产品经理可以兑现一些东西，就像，这就是为什么它对我们来说如此存在，这就是为什么它如此有趣，并且真正团结起来。

So that's one big thing of storytelling communication because at the end of the day, so much of our job, it's around that.

所以这是讲故事沟通的一件大事，因为归根结底，我们的大部分工作都是围绕这个展开的。

Yuhki Yamashita: I think other than that, some of the things that I value or things I think about as, hi Dan with UX conversations, it's like we talk about problem, and I think about when you're exploring solutions, it's this tree of, okay, there's just these branches of explorations and you finally arrive at these solutions.

Yuhki Yamashita：我认为除此之外，我看重的一些事情或我认为的事情，嗨丹，在用户体验对话中，就像我们谈论问题一样，我想当你在探索解决方案时，就是这棵树，好吧，只有这些探索的分支，你最终会得到这些解决方案。

And a ton of people who can go up and down branches really quickly, have a really high command of all these different altitudes, as well, so that we can talk through a lot of things at the end of the day, feel like we walk away with some progress.

还有很多人可以很快地在树枝上上下移动，对所有这些不同的海拔高度都有很高的掌握，这样我们就可以在一天结束时讨论很多事情，感觉我们离开时取得了一些进展。

Yuhki Yamashita: And I think that at Uber, our first two Product Officer, Jeff Holden, was someone who often talked about fast forwarding to the future and this idea that, okay, let's just pretend we ran that experiment.

Yuhki Yamashita：我认为在 Uber，我们的前两位产品官 Jeff Holden 经常谈论快速前进到未来以及这个想法，好吧，让我们假装我们进行了那个实验。

What do you think it'll come back with?

你认为它会带着什么回来？

Or let's pretend we ran that, you just use a study.

或者让我们假装我们运行了这个，你只需使用一项研究。

And the PMs who have the ability to imagine those outcomes, I think, it helps us be much more efficient, too, because we're like, well, if we all think that it's going to go there and that's not going to compel us to take any action, why do it at all?

我认为，有能力想象这些结果的项目经理，这也有助于我们提高效率，因为我们会想，好吧，如果我们都认为它会到达那里，并且不会迫使我们采取任何行动，那为什么还要这样做呢？

Yuhki Yamashita: And so I think a lot of PM is about those shortcuts that you have to take.

Yuhki Yamashita：所以我认为很多 PM 都是关于你必须走的捷径。

And it's not just about what we build, it's about building the right things.

这不仅仅是关于我们建造什么，而是关于建造正确的东西。

And sometimes, it's just as important to decide not to build something, but it's all only possible if you can have that kind of imagination or that ability to see around corners.

有时，决定不建造某些东西同样重要，但这一切只有当你拥有那种想象力或洞察角落的能力时才有可能。

Lenny: I love that.

莱尼：我喜欢这个。

I was going to ask you for your favorite interview questions in our lightning round and you jumped ahead, which is great.

我本来想在我们的闪电轮面试中问你最喜欢的面试问题，你跳到了前面，这太棒了。

And those are really good examples.

这些都是很好的例子。

Hopefully, they don't give too much away.

希望他们不会放弃太多。

I want to chat a bit about growth and how Figma grows.

我想聊聊成长以及 Figma 如何成长。

If you ask people about product led growth, and just whenever people talk about product led growth, they're always companies like Figma, Slack...

如果你问人们关于产品主导的增长，每当人们谈论产品主导的增长时，他们总是像 Figma、Slack 这样的公司......

Figma is always seen as a model of product led growth and a product that grew through product.

Figma 一直被视为产品引领增长的典范，是通过产品增长的产品。

Lenny: I imagine now, there's a very robust sales team, and I imagine, even earlier than people, probably, imagined there was a sales team.

莱尼：我现在想象，有一个非常强大的销售团队，而且我想，甚至可能比人们想象的更早有一个销售团队。

I'm curious, as a product leader, what you've learned about how to effectively work with sales and what you teach your product managers about how to work with sales to collaborate effectively.

我很好奇，作为产品负责人，您学到了如何有效地与销售人员合作以及您向产品经理传授了如何与销售人员进行有效协作的知识。

Yuhki Yamashita: We're really lucky to have a sales team that understands their product really well and can hold their own with customers who are often also design leaders, product leaders and things like that.

Yuhki Yamashita：我们真的很幸运，拥有一支销售团队，他们非常了解他们的产品，并且能够在客户中保持自己的立场，而这些客户通常也是设计领导者、产品领导者等。

And I think that kind of credibility goes a really long way.

我认为这种可信度有很大帮助。

One of the things that we all are collectively realizing is, we talk about product like growth, but in some ways, I like to think about it more as community led growth or there are certain people inside a company that feel so strongly about Figma and that they're helping push for it in these advocates and evangelizing for Figma.

我们大家共同意识到的一件事是，我们谈论产品之类的增长，但在某些方面，我更喜欢将其视为社区主导的增长，或者公司内部的某些人对 Figma 有着强烈的感觉，并且他们正在帮助推动这些倡导者并为 Figma 传播福音。

Yuhki Yamashita: And so oftentimes, what the sales team does is really empower those individuals to make a stronger case or connect them to the rest of the company so that we can get a wider deployment or more leadership buying and things like that.

Yuhki Yamashita：很多时候，销售团队所做的就是真正授权这些人提出更有力的案例，或者将他们与公司的其他部门联系起来，以便我们能够获得更广泛的部署或更多的领导力采购等等。

And so oftentimes, a sales team is playing that role of creating those human connections and helping equip designers that feel passionately inside a company with the data, with the stories and all those things to help make a case.

通常，销售团队扮演着建立人际关系的角色，并帮助那些对公司充满热情的设计师提供数据、故事和所有这些有助于论证的东西。

And I think that's the most powerful way in which we can spread where the space of Figma is not the sales team, but in fact, it's the internal designer.

我认为这是我们可以传播的最有力的方式，Figma 的空间不是销售团队，而是内部设计师。

Yuhki Yamashita: And so that's the mental model that I think we've been using it.

Yuhki Yamashita：我认为这就是我们一直在使用的思维模型。

We're fortunate enough to have people inside companies who are so passionate to want to play that role.

我们很幸运，公司内部有非常热衷于扮演这一角色的人。

And so when you take that lens on, then you start to understand, okay, how can we help set this person up for success?

所以当你站在这个角度上时，你就会开始明白，好吧，我们怎样才能帮助这个人走向成功呢？

And the sales team has different ways to do it.

销售团队有不同的方法来做到这一点。

The product team can help, in terms of giving them visibility into how we're thinking about evolving the product or what other customers might be doing.

产品团队可以提供帮助，让他们了解我们如何考虑改进产品或其他客户可能在做什么。

And so, I really see it as this partnership to enable that much as possible.

因此，我确实认为这种伙伴关系可以尽可能地实现这一目标。

And I think that's what, to me, product growth looks like at Figma, is that.

我认为，对我来说，Figma 的产品增长就是这样的。

Lenny: That is really interesting.

莱尼：这真的很有趣。

Basically, making your champion inside the company a superhero, helping them be more effective at what they're already doing, which is evangelizing this product that they really love.

基本上，让公司内部的冠军成为超级英雄，帮助他们更有效地完成他们已经在做的事情，这就是传播他们真正喜欢的产品。

Interesting.

有趣的。

Lenny: Is there anything that you think Figma did early on that you think was really important for it to start to grow, either in this way or in a different way?

Lenny：您认为 Figma 早期所做的任何事情对于它开始成长来说非常重要，无论是以这种方式还是以不同的方式？

Imagine there's just a lot of product led growth founders that are trying to create a product led growth product, and they fail.

想象一下，有很多产品主导型增长的创始人试图创建产品主导型增长的产品，但他们失败了。

And so I'm curious, just what do you think people often miss and what do you think Figma did right that got it going?

所以我很好奇，你认为人们经常错过什么？你认为 Figma 做对了什么才让它继续下去？

Yuhki Yamashita: I think a lot of it was about the level of intention around building community.

Yuhki Yamashita：我认为很大程度上与构建社区的意图水平有关。

And the more there are organic conversations happening about Figma, the better.

关于 Figma 的有机对话越多越好。

And one of the nice things about Figma is you can share out a file that you've been working on, and effectively open source something, but it's your way of showing, here's how we do it at so X, Y, Z company, and sharing that with the rest of the community.

Figma 的好处之一是，您可以共享您一直在处理的文件，并有效地开源一些东西，但这是您的展示方式，这是我们在 X、Y、Z 公司的做法，并与社区其他成员共享。

And when people see that and when people feel like they have this insider view in how other companies work, that's where there's a lot of interest.

当人们看到这一点，当人们觉得自己对其他公司的运作方式有内部看法时，就会产生很大的兴趣。

Yuhki Yamashita: And more recently, over the last few years, we've really been focused on a program called Friends of Figma where we have people who are passing about Figma, and all our different geographies come together in a Discord channel.

Yuhki Yamashita：最近，在过去的几年里，我们一直专注于一个名为 Friends of Figma 的项目，我们的人们在其中传播 Figma，我们所有不同地区的人都聚集在一个 Discord 频道中。

They meet regularly and are helping us evangelize.

他们定期聚会并帮助我们传福音。

And again, that's that human connection between users, and then between us and the users is something that really helps build that kind of loyalty, which is the thing that, then, fuels all the champions to really push for it, internally, and give people the enthusiasm and courage to do that inside their organization.

再说一遍，用户之间以及我们和用户之间的人际关系确实有助于建立这种忠诚度，而这种忠诚度又可以激励所有拥护者在内部真正推动这一目标，并给予人们在组织内部这样做的热情和勇气。

Lenny: It's interesting how many corollaries there are to Notion and how they got started.

Lenny：有趣的是，Notion 有多少推论以及它们是如何开始的。

I recently chatted with Camille, I don't know if you heard that episode, but there's a lot of similarities with how Notion use their community to help jumpstart growth and continue to grow.

我最近和 Camille 聊天，我不知道你是否听说过那一集，但是 Notion 如何利用他们的社区来帮助快速增长并持续增长有很多相似之处。

Lenny: It's interesting that you can call that community growth, product growth.

Lenny：有趣的是，你可以称之为社区增长、产品增长。

There's a lot of overlap there, potentially.

那里可能存在很多重叠。

Lenny: What advice would you have for folks that are, I don't know, maybe you already shared this, but just if you're a product led growth founder listening to this, do you have any other piece of advice to that founder about how to get started with their product, their community, their growth strategy?

莱尼：我不知道，你对那些人有什么建议，也许你已经分享了这个，但如果你是一个以产品为主导的增长创始人，正在听这个，你对这位创始人有什么其他建议，关于如何开始他们的产品、他们的社区、他们的增长策略吗？

Anything else you'd want to share there?

您还想在那里分享什么吗？

Yuhki Yamashita: Maybe a different way to talk about what we just talked about, is just, there has to be this, almost irrational, this emotional response to your product and this like love for it.

Yuhki Yamashita：也许用一种不同的方式来谈论我们刚才谈论的内容，就是，必须有这种，几乎非理性的，对你的产品的情感反应，以及对它的热爱。

First, it has to be cultivated internally, too.

首先，它也必须在内部培养。

People, internally, have to authentically love something to really stand behind it.

人们在内心深处必须真正热爱某件事物，才能真正支持它。

But then, externally, too, if people are loving something to the point where they can sing at the top of their lungs and just really talk about how Figma's, great, if we can get there, that's a wonderful place to be.

但是，从外部来看，如果人们热爱某种东西，以至于可以放声歌唱，并且真正谈论 Figma 的表现，那就太好了，如果我们能做到这一点，那就是一个美妙的地方。

Yuhki Yamashita: And I think that's both a combination of you've really solved their problems well, but you also equip people with a philosophy around a different way of working.

Yuhki Yamashita：我认为这不仅是因为你确实很好地解决了他们的问题，而且你还为人们提供了一种围绕不同工作方式的哲学。

And I think that's what worked well for Figma, too, which is, there's something controversial about this idea that everyone can see what you're doing, or that multiple designers can be in the file at the same time.

我认为这对 Figma 来说也很有效，也就是说，每个人都可以看到你在做什么，或者多个设计师可以同时在文件中，这个想法存在一些争议。

We like to say that one of the first responses we saw Figma was, if this is a future of design, I'm quitting.

我们想说的是，我们看到 Figma 的第一个反应是，如果这是设计的未来，我就会退出。

I'm changing careers.

我正在改变职业。

And there's that tension of that narrative tension, but that is signal that you're part of this revolution and you're trying to change something.

叙事张力存在张力，但这表明你是这场革命的一部分，并且你正在努力改变一些东西。

And when it can equips your customers or user base with that, and I think that's something that they can really get behind and champion, so it's not just that they're championing for a tool, they're also championing for a new way of working.

当它可以为你的客户或用户群提供这些时，我认为这是他们真正可以支持和支持的东西，所以他们不仅仅是支持一种工具，他们还支持一种新的工作方式。

Yuhki Yamashita: Obviously, that's a tall order or come up with that.

Yuhki Yamashita：显然，这是一个艰巨的任务，或者说是自己想出来的。

But hopefully, if your a founder, you're working on something, your mission is so big that you have those kind of ideas, and it's how do you actually equip your customers to want to talk about that?

但希望，如果你是一名创始人，你正在做某件事，你的使命是如此之大，以至于你有这些想法，那么你如何真正让你的客户愿意谈论这个呢？

Lenny: That's awesome.

莱尼：那太棒了。

Reminds me of a quote and a tagline that the Airbnb's first growth team had for a long time.

让我想起 Airbnb 第一个增长团队长期以来的一句话和口号。

Love drives growth, not the other way around.

爱推动成长，而不是相反。

They made posters of this, put it all over the product teams.

他们制作了海报，并将其贴在产品团队的各个角落。

Lenny: Part of the office and seemed to have worked for Airbnb, clearly working for Figma.

Lenny：办公室的一部分，似乎曾在 Airbnb 工作，显然是在 Figma 工作。

Lenny: One last question feels like a question we have to touch on.

莱尼：最后一个问题似乎是我们必须讨论的问题。

I don't know how much you can say about all this stuff, but with the potential acquisition with Adobe, which I know isn't done, yet, but I'm just curious, what do you think will change, may change, you're hoping will change, you're hoping won't change in how you build product at Figma within Adobe?

我不知道你对这些事情能说多少，但是随着对 Adob​​e 的潜在收购，我知道这还没有完成，但我只是很好奇，你认为什么会改变，可能会改变，你希望会改变，你希望不会改变你在 Adob​​e 内的 Figma 构建产品的方式？

Yuhki Yamashita: Totally.

山下雄贵：完全可以。

Yeah.

是的。

As you said, it hasn't closed, yet, and so we're still independent companies, but when we think about that theoretical future, I think about people often ask me, so what's going to happen, in terms of the products that you work on, and how is that going to influence Figma?

正如你所说，它还没有关闭，所以我们仍然是独立的公司，但当我们思考理论上的未来时，我想到人们经常问我，那么就你开发的产品而言，会发生什么，这将如何影响Figma？

And the answer is, we don't know, yet, but I get excited about two avenues.

答案是，我们还不知道，但我对两种途径感到兴奋。

One is just really continuing our current mission of making product design better.

一是真正继续我们当前的使命，让产品设计变得更好。

And the reality is we look at product design, a lot of people are still using both Adobe and Figma alongside each other.

现实情况是，我们看看产品设计，很多人仍然同时使用 Adob​​e 和 Figma。

And maybe you're creating that micro interaction in After Effects, or maybe you're doing that intricate illustration in Illustrator, or editing Raster in Photoshop, and then you're bringing some of those things into Figma.

也许您正在 After Effects 中创建微交互，或者也许您正在 Illustrator 中制作复杂的插图，或者在 Photoshop 中编辑光栅，然后您将其中一些内容引入 Figma。

But when you think about the end product development process, there's so many ways in which, if we can make all those things seamless so that you're not juggling a bunch of apps, or maybe you can have one single source of truth, that's really exciting to me to think about.

但当你考虑最终产品的开发过程时，你会发现有很多方法，如果我们能够使所有这些事情变得无缝，这样你就不用处理一堆应用程序，或者你可以拥有一个单一的事实来源，这对我来说真的很令人兴奋。

So concretely what that means, I don't know, yet, but as thinking through those journeys, that gets exciting for me.

具体来说，我还不知道这意味着什么，但在思考这些旅程时，这让我感到兴奋。

Yuhki Yamashita: And then the other thing is really collaborating with the rest of Adobe and thinking about, we've figured out something really interesting in the form of realtime multiplayer collaboration, and that, as a platform.

Yuhki Yamashita：另一件事是与 Adob​​e 的其他部门进行真正的合作，并思考，我们已经以实时多人协作的形式找到了一些非常有趣的东西，并且作为一个平台。

Adobe has a much broader set of use cases that they've been pursuing, and what do those two things together, what could that enable?

Adobe 拥有更广泛的用例，他们一直在追求，这两件事结合在一起会带来什么，可以实现什么？

And that gets exciting for me to think about all the creative tools that I've used in the past, be it video editing or 3D objects or things like that where it's, okay, if we can bring in the power of the browser, of multiplayer, of this feeling of openness, would that make it way easier for people?

想到我过去使用过的所有创意工具，无论是视频编辑还是 3D 对象或类似的东西，这让我很兴奋，如果我们能够引入浏览器、多人游戏、这种开放感的力量，这会让人们变得更容易吗？

Would it make it much easier for people to share work or get involved?

它会让人们更容易分享工作或参与其中吗？

Yuhki Yamashita: So those are the things that go through my heads, in terms of what's possible.

Yuhki Yamashita：这些就是我脑海中闪过的关于可能性的事情。

In terms of what I don't want change.

就我不想改变的方面而言。

I really think that we've figured out something really amazing, in terms of our relationship with the community.

我真的认为，就我们与社区的关系而言，我们已经发现了一些非常令人惊奇的事情。

We talked about proximity to community and our users.

我们讨论了与社区和用户的接近度。

Those are things that we intend to keep and keep doubling down on.

这些是我们打算保留并继续加倍努力的事情。

And I think it's such an important part of the magic of how Figma works.

我认为这是 Figma 工作原理的一个重要组成部分。

So it's something that, I think, I will continue to do and that's what I draw a lot of motivation from in the first place.

所以我认为我会继续做这件事，这也是我首先从中获得很大动力的事情。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

You also get to work with Scott Delski, which is going to be pretty sweet and hoping to get Scott on this podcast at some point, too.

你还可以与斯科特·德尔斯基（Scott Delski）合作，这将是非常甜蜜的事情，并希望斯科特在某个时候也能加入这个播客。

Lenny: Any closing thoughts before we get to our very exciting lightning round?

莱尼：在我们开始激动人心的闪电回合之前，有什么结束的想法吗？

Yuhki Yamashita: It's really easy to listen to some of these podcasts and feel like, oh, these people have kind of figured everything out.

Yuhki Yamashita：听一些播客真的很容易让人感觉，哦，这些人已经把一切都弄清楚了。

Yuhki Yamashita: But the reality is, we haven't, and we're still experimenting with a lot of things.

Yuhki Yamashita：但现实是，我们还没有，而且我们仍在尝试很多事情。

OKRs is a really good example of that, but a lot of other things.

OKR 就是一个很好的例子，但还有很多其他的东西。

And so, just the other day I wrote about this idea of us living in a work in progress world, and I was talking about more from the context of we live in a world where all of our products, our product players, our strategies are work in progress, and how do you work in a world like that, when what you're reviewing can change the next day.

因此，就在前几天，我写了关于我们生活在一个正在进行中的世界的想法，我更多地从我们生活在一个我们所有的产品、我们的产品参与者、我们的策略都在进行中的世界的背景中谈论更多，以及当你正在审查的内容第二天可能会改变时，你如何在这样的世界中工作。

Yuhki Yamashita: But in a similar way, I think the way we work, the way we run product processes as product managers is, itself, very much a work in progress.

Yuhki Yamashita：但以类似的方式，我认为我们的工作方式，我们作为产品经理运行产品流程的方式本身就是一项正在进行的工作。

So I would love to encourage this kind of conversation, Lenny, that you're facilitating just because you have so much to learn from each other.

所以我很乐意鼓励这种对话，莱尼，你之所以能够促成这种对话，只是因为你们有很多东西需要互相学习。

And I'd love to continue to learn more from all of you on interesting ways that you grapple with these age old problems around things like how to set goals, or how to review work, or how to plan.

我很乐意继续向你们所有人学习更多有趣的方法，以解决这些古老的问题，例如如何设定目标，或如何审查工作，或如何计划。

Yuhki Yamashita: So anyway, just wanted to signal that we are very far from perfect, and I really eager to learn from everyone else, as well.

Yuhki Yamashita：无论如何，只是想表明我们离完美还很远，我也非常渴望向其他人学习。

Lenny: I love that.

莱尼：我喜欢这个。

That also reminds me of something the Airbnb founders always came back to.

这也让我想起了 Airbnb 创始人经常提到的一些事情。

Joe and Brian were both designers, and as you learn to be a designer, you are taught that everything around you is designed by someone.

乔和布莱恩都是设计师，当你学习成为一名设计师时，你会被告知你周围的一切都是由某人设计的。

Someone just decided this webcam's going to look this way and work in this way, this chair, somebody decided very specifically, it's going to be like this.

有人刚刚决定这个网络摄像头将看起来像这样并以这种方式工作，这把椅子，有人非常具体地决定，它将像这样。

And we assume the things that we are working within are just, they're figured out.

我们假设我们正在做的事情是公正的，它们已经被弄清楚了。

Someone much smarter than me figure this out.

比我聪明得多的人能想到这一点。

But it's usually just someone just like you that had to figure something out quickly, and then that's what you're doing now.

但通常只有像你这样的人必须快速解决问题，然后这就是你现在正在做的事情。

And so they always encouraged everyone to just remember someone designed this, doesn't mean it's the perfect solution, and you should always rethink things like that and not assume.

因此，他们总是鼓励每个人记住有人设计了这个，并不意味着它是完美的解决方案，你应该总是重新思考这样的事情，而不是假设。

Lenny: Well, with that, we've reached our very exciting lightning round.

莱尼：好了，我们已经进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。

I've got six short quick questions for you.

我有六个简短的问题要问你。

I'll just go through them pretty quick, whatever comes to mind, share, and we'll see how it all goes.

我会快速浏览一遍，无论想到什么，分享，我们会看看一切进展如何。

Sound good?

听起来不错吗？

All right.

好的。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

What are two or three books that you've most recommended to other folks?

您最常向其他人推荐的两三本书是什么？

Yuhki Yamashita: First one that comes to mind is Switch, and it's really about how to affect organizational change, something that's Shishir recommended to me and we have the difficulty of affecting change in a large organization, basically, and how to overcome that.

Yuhki Yamashita：第一个想到的是 Switch，它实际上是关于如何影响组织变革，Shishir 向我推荐的东西，我们基本上很难影响大型组织的变革，以及如何克服这一点。

Yuhki Yamashita: The second one I would say is my favorite book of all time is one called The Story of the Stone, and it's a Chinese novel, one of the most famous Chinese novels of all time.

Yuhki Yamashita：我要说的第二本书是我一直以来最喜欢的一本书，叫做《石头记》，它是一本中国小说，是有史以来最著名的中国小说之一。

And it's thousands of pages.

而且有数千页。

It all takes place in a garden, but it's one of the most beautiful piece of work I've read, so I like to recommend that, even though it's nothing to do with PM.

这一切都发生在一个花园里，但这是我读过的最美丽的作品之一，所以我想推荐它，尽管它与 PM 无关。

Lenny: Did you say thousands of pages?

莱尼：你是说几千页吗？

Lenny: About a stone.

莱尼：关于一块石头。

Wow.

哇。

I will check this out.

我会检查一下。

I love it.

我喜欢它。

I've not heard this one before.

我以前没听说过这个。

Favorite other podcast, other than the one you're currently on?

除了您当前正在收听的播客之外，您还喜欢其他播客吗？

Yuhki Yamashita: Well, I'll have to admit, I'm actually much more of a visual learner, not a listener, and so I rarely listen to podcasts, but the two that I have listened to, in earnest, was first one was Cereal a long time ago, and then yours.

Yuhki Yamashita：嗯，我不得不承认，我实际上更多的是一个视觉学习者，而不是一个听众，所以我很少听播客，但我认真听过的两个播客，第一个是很久以前的 Cereal，然后是你的。

Yuhki Yamashita: So I think some of the best, actually, but otherwise, more into reading.

Yuhki Yamashita：所以我认为实际上一些最好的，但除此之外，更多的是阅读。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

This show's also on YouTube, for folks that don't listening and like watching things.

该节目也在 YouTube 上播出，适合那些不听、喜欢看的人。

Plug, plug.

插头，插头。

Favorite recent movie or TV show?

最近最喜欢的电影或电视节目？

Yuhki Yamashita: The last movie I watched was called The Good Nurse, and it was about a serial killer working in a hospital, but it was a very different take on it.

Yuhki Yamashita：我看的最后一部电影叫《好护士》，讲述了一个在医院工作的连环杀手的故事，但它的呈现方式却截然不同。

It was very human.

这非常人性化。

It wasn't grotesque at all, and was talking about how broken our system was.

这一点也不怪诞，只是在谈论我们的系统有多么糟糕。

So, highly recommend it.

所以，强烈推荐它。

Quite sad, but yeah.

很伤心，但是是的。

Lenny: Okay, good tip.

莱尼：好的，很好的建议。

What are some SaaS products that you love that you, maybe, use at Figma or that you just discovered that you find very useful?

您喜欢哪些 SaaS 产品，也许您在 Figma 使用过，或者您刚刚发现这些产品非常有用？

Yuhki Yamashita: Kind of cheating, but as I mentioned earlier, we're starting to use FigJam for everything from calibrations, to interview debriefs, to product reviews, to everything.

Yuhki Yamashita：有点作弊，但正如我之前提到的，我们开始使用 FigJam 进行所有事情，从校准、采访汇报、产品评论，到一切。

So that's thoroughly started to dominate our usage.

所以这已经彻底开始主导我们的使用。

It's been cool to see.

很高兴看到。

And then we have our usual suspects like Slack and Asana, and then we're all over the place on the rest.

然后我们有像 Slack 和 Asana 这样的常见嫌疑人，然后我们就剩下了。

Some of us use Notions, some of these use Dropbox Paper, some of these uses Koda, and so we're still figuring that one, out, I'd say.

我们中的一些人使用 Notions，一些人使用 Dropbox Paper，一些人使用 Koda，所以我想说，我们仍在弄清楚这一点。

Lenny: I love that product, but I feel like no one uses it anymore, but it's cool that you guys do.

莱尼：我喜欢这个产品，但我觉得没有人再使用它了，但你们使用它真是太酷了。

Final question, favorite FigJam or Figma plugin or template?

最后一个问题，最喜欢的 FigJam 或 Figma 插件或模板？

Yuhki Yamashita: We have this one called the Alignment Scale, which is a widget that you can insert into FigJam or Figma Design, actually.

Yuhki Yamashita：我们有一个叫做 Alignment Scale 的小部件，实际上，它是一个可以插入 FigJam 或 Figma Design 中的小部件。

And we use it all the time.

我们一直在使用它。

So basically, it's just a simple scale and whenever people click it, their face appears on one end of the spectrum or the other.

所以基本上，它只是一个简单的比例，每当人们点击它时，他们的脸就会出现在光谱的一端或另一端。

And so it's our quick way of being like, we're doing a product review, we on a pulse check, we drop it in and we're like, how are people feeling aligned, not aligned?

所以这是我们的快速方式，我们正在进行产品审查，我们进行脉搏检查，我们将其放入，然后我们会想，人们感觉如何一致，而不是一致？

Yuhki Yamashita: And if people are aligned, we just move on.

Yuhki Yamashita：如果人们一致，我们就会继续前进。

If not, then you know that it's worth a discussion.

如果没有，那么您就知道这值得讨论。

So it's just a fast way to figure out where all the hotspots are.

因此，这只是找出所有热点位置的快速方法。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

And if folks want to find that, they can actually go to the newsletter interview that we did.

如果人们想找到这一点，他们实际上可以去参加我们所做的时事通讯采访。

I think if you just Google how Figma builds product, it comes up number one, and then there's a link to actual template, so you can plug that right in.

我认为如果你只是谷歌 Figma 如何构建产品，它会出现在第一名，然后有一个指向实际模板的链接，所以你可以直接插入它。

Lenny: Yuhki, thank you so much for being here.

Lenny：Yuhki，非常感谢你来到这里。

I am going to go play with Figma and FigJam right after this.

这之后我要去玩 Figma 和 FigJam。

Two final questions.

最后两个问题。

Where can folks find you online, if they want to reach out, learn more?

如果人们想联系、了解更多信息，可以在哪里找到您？

Are you guys hiring, anything there?

你们还招人吗，有什么事情吗？

And then, two, how can listeners be useful to you?

然后，第二个问题，听众如何对你有用？

Yuhki Yamashita: Yes, you can find me online on Twitter or LinkedIn.

Yuhki Yamashita：是的，您可以在 Twitter 或 LinkedIn 上找到我。

Feel free to reach out there.

请随时与我们联系。

Yuhki Yamashita: In terms of how you can be useful to us?

Yuhki Yamashita：您对我们有何帮助？

We're really starting to build a lot of products for this audience, for product managers.

我们确实开始为这些受众、为产品经理打造很多产品。

FigJam is one example of this, so definitely try it out, give us the feedback, tell me all about all the cool things that you're doing or you wish you could do on FigJam or Figma.

FigJam 就是其中一个例子，所以一定要尝试一下，向我们提供反馈，告诉我您正在做的所有很酷的事情，或者您希望可以在 FigJam 或 Figma 上做的事情。

And you can tweet at me, you can find me anywhere.

你可以发推文给我，你可以在任何地方找到我。

And, of course, we're also hiring, so if you know great people or are interested, yeah, there's a lot of roles, so please get in touch.

当然，我们也在招聘，所以如果你认识优秀的人或者有兴趣，是的，有很多职位，所以请联系我们。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

Yuhki, thank you so much for being here.

Yuhki，非常感谢你来到这里。

Yuhki Yamashita: Thank you so much for having me, Lenny.

Yuhki Yamashita：非常感谢你邀请我，Lenny。

Lenny: Thank you so much for listening.

莱尼：非常感谢您的聆听。

If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcast, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.

如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcast、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.

您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。