Persuasive communication and managing up | Wes Kao (Maven, altMBA, Section4)
Wes Kao: I often see operators who explain things poorly and then are shocked and horrified when people are confused or there's skepticism, there's apathy.
Wes Kao：我经常看到操作员解释得很糟糕，当人们感到困惑或怀疑、冷漠时，他们会感到震惊和恐惧。
I'm a big proponent of asking myself, if I'm not getting the reaction that I'm looking for, how might I be contributing?
我非常支持问自己，如果我没有得到我想要的反应，我该如何做出贡献？
How could I explain this more clearly?
我怎样才能更清楚地解释这一点？
How can I be more compelling?
我怎样才能更有说服力？
How can I anticipate any questions that they might have?
我如何预测他们可能提出的任何问题？
Lenny Rachitsky: You are one of the best teachers of communication I've ever come across.
Lenny Rachitsky：您是我遇到过的最好的沟通老师之一。
I made a list of people's favorite tactics and frameworks and approaches that you teach in writing.
我列出了人们最喜欢的策略、框架以及您以书面形式教授的方法。
Any tactics you can share for someone to be a little more concise?
您可以分享一些让别人更简洁的策略吗？
Wes Kao: I think the blast radius of a poorly written memo is way bigger than most people think.
Wes Kao：我认为一份写得不好的备忘录的影响范围比大多数人想象的要大得多。
If you are just shooting off a message in a Slack channel with 15 other people, and it's confusing, you didn't include information you should have included, there's going to be a bunch of back and forth.
如果您只是在 Slack 频道中与其他 15 个人一起发送一条消息，并且这很令人困惑，您没有包含应该包含的信息，那么将会有很多来回。
Whereas if you had just taken another look at it, those 15 people would be off to the races.
然而，如果你再看一眼，那 15 个人就会开始参加比赛。
Lenny Rachitsky: You have an awesome framework called MOO.
Lenny Rachitsky：你们有一个很棒的框架，叫做 MOO。
Wes Kao: MOO stands for Most Obvious Objection.
Wes Kao：MOO 代表最明显的反对。
A lot of times we're surprised by the questions that we get especially in meetings, we feel blindsided.
很多时候，我们对收到的问题感到惊讶，尤其是在会议中，我们感到措手不及。
When really, if you thought for even two minutes about what are obvious objections that I'm likely to get, you often immediately come up with what some of those things are.
事实上，如果你花两分钟的时间思考我可能会遇到的明显反对意见，你通常会立即想到其中一些事情是什么。
Are you going to be able to anticipate every single objection?
你能预见到每一个反对意见吗？
No. But can you anticipate the obvious ones?
不。但是你能预见到明显的问题吗？
Absolutely.
绝对地。
Lenny Rachitsky: Today my guest is Wes Kao.
Lenny Rachitsky：今天我的嘉宾是Wes Kao。
Wes co-created the Alt-MBA program with Seth Godin.
Wes 与 Seth Godin 共同创建了 Alt-MBA 项目。
She Co-Founded a company called Maven, which I often collaborate with, which makes it easy for people to host live cohort-based courses.
她与人共同创立了一家名为 Maven 的公司，我经常与该公司合作，这使人们可以轻松举办基于群组的实时课程。
She recently left Maven to launch her own course on Executive Communication and Influence.
她最近离开 Maven，开设了自己的高管沟通和影响力课程。
There's a quote that came to mind after I stopped recording this conversation with Wes by George Bernard Shaw, "The single biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place."
在我停止录制萧伯纳与韦斯的对话后，我想起了一句话：“沟通中最大的问题是它已经发生的幻觉。”
Lenny Rachitsky: By the end of this podcast if you listen to what Wes suggests, you'll be a lot closer to becoming a world-class communicator.
Lenny Rachitsky：在本播客结束时，如果您听取韦斯的建议，您将更接近成为世界级的沟通者。
If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube.
如果您喜欢这个播客，请不要忘记订阅并在您最喜欢的播客应用程序或 YouTube 中关注它。
Also, if you become a yearly subscriber of my newsletter, you get a year free of Perplexity Pro, Superhuman, Notion, Linear and Granola.
此外，如果您成为我的时事通讯的年度订阅者，您将获得一年免费的 Perplexity Pro、Super human、Notion、Linear 和 Granola。
Check it out at lennysnewsletter.com.
请访问 lennysnewsletter.com 进行查看。
With that, I bring you Wes Kao.
接下来，我为您带来Wes Kao。
Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by WorkOS.
Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 WorkOS 为您带来。
If you're building a SaaS app, at some point your customers will start asking for enterprise features like SAML authentication and SCIM provisioning.
如果您正在构建 SaaS 应用程序，那么您的客户有时会开始要求提供 SAML 身份验证和 SCIM 配置等企业功能。
That's where WorkOS comes in, making it fast and painless to add enterprise features to your app.
这就是 WorkOS 的用武之地，它可以快速、轻松地将企业功能添加到您的应用程序中。
Their APIs are easy to understand so that you can ship quickly and get back to building other features.
他们的 API 易于理解，因此您可以快速交付并继续构建其他功能。
Today, hundreds of companies are already powered by WorkOS, including ones you probably know like Vercel, Webflow, and Loom.
如今，数百家公司已经由 WorkOS 提供支持，其中包括您可能知道的 Vercel、Webflow 和 Loom 等公司。
Lenny Rachitsky: WorkOS also recently acquired Warrant, the Fine Grained Authorization Service.
Lenny Rachitsky：WorkOS 最近还收购了 Warrant，即细粒度授权服务。
Warrant's product is based on a groundbreaking authorization system called Zanzibar, which was originally designed for Google to power Google Docs and YouTube.
Warrant 的产品基于名为 Zanzibar 的突破性授权系统，该系统最初是为 Google 设计的，旨在为 Google Docs 和 YouTube 提供支持。
This enables fast authorization checks at enormous scale while maintaining a flexible model that can be adapted to even the most complex use cases.
这可以实现大规模的快速授权检查，同时保持灵活的模型，甚至可以适应最复杂的用例。
If you're currently looking to build role-based access control or other enterprise features like single sign-on, SCIM or user management, you should consider WorkOS.
如果您当前正在寻求构建基于角色的访问控制或其他企业功能（例如单点登录、SCIM 或用户管理），您应该考虑 WorkOS。
It's a drop-in replacement for Auth0 and supports up to 1 million monthly active users for free.
它是 Auth0 的直接替代品，免费支持多达 100 万月活跃用户。
Check it out at workos.com to learn more.
请访问 workos.com 以了解更多信息。
That's workos.com.
那是workos.com。
Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by Vanta.
Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 Vanta 为您带来。
When it comes to ensuring your company has top-notch security practices, things get complicated fast.
当谈到确保您的公司拥有一流的安全实践时，事情很快就会变得复杂。
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现在，您可以使用单一平台 Vanta 评估风险、确保客户信任并自动实现 SOC 2、ISO 27001、HIPAA 等合规性。
Vanta's market-leading trust management platform helps you continuously monitor compliance alongside reporting and tracking risks.
Vanta 市场领先的信任管理平台可帮助您持续监控合规性以及报告和跟踪风险。
Plus, you can save hours by completing security questionnaires with Vanta AI.
此外，您还可以通过 Vanta AI 完成安全调查问卷来节省时间。
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加入数千家使用 Vanta 自动化证据收集、统一风险管理和简化安全审查的全球公司行列。
Get $1,000 off Vanta when you go to vanta.com/lenny.
访问vanta.com/lenny，可享受 Vanta 立减 1,000 美元的优惠。
That's V-A-N-T-A.com/lenny.
那是 V-A-N-T-A.com/lenny。
Wes, thank you so much for being here and welcome back to the podcast.
韦斯，非常感谢您来到这里，欢迎回到播客。
Wes Kao: Thanks, Lenny.
高伟雄：谢谢，莱尼。
I'm very honored to be a second-time guest.
我很荣幸成为第二次来宾。
Lenny Rachitsky: Very rare honor.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：非常难得的荣誉。
No pressure, but I think this is going to be one of the highest leverage episodes I've done and let me tell you why I think that's the case in the newsletter and on the podcast, I often talk about just how important and how high leverage the skill of communication is to product leaders, to leaders, just to people in general.
没有压力，但我认为这将是我做过的影响力最高的一集，让我告诉你为什么我认为在时事通讯和播客中就是这种情况，我经常谈论沟通技巧对于产品领导者、领导者以及一般人来说是多么重要和多么高的影响力。
There's this quote that Boz, the CTO of Meta, he's been on the podcast, he wrote this famous blog post, "Communication is the job." And I think that's true for product people, but it's true for basically any sort of leadership role.
Meta 的 CTO Boz 曾在播客上引用过这句话，他写了这篇著名的博客文章，“沟通就是工作”。我认为这对于产品人员来说是正确的，但对于基本上任何类型的领导角色来说都是如此。
Anyone trying to get ahead.
任何想取得成功的人。
And you are one of the best communicators I've ever met.
你是我见过的最好的沟通者之一。
You are one of the best teachers of communication I've ever come across.
您是我遇到过的最好的沟通老师之一。
You have one of the most popular courses on Maven, on executive communication, so I'm really excited to have you here and to help people become better communicators, better at influence and all these things.
你们开设了 Maven 上最受欢迎的高管沟通课程之一，所以我很高兴你们能来到这里，帮助人们成为更好的沟通者，更好地发挥影响力等等。
So thank you again for being here.
再次感谢您来到这里。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。
So something that I often do with guests on the podcast, not even often, always, I ping people that the guests have worked with and ask them, "What should I ask Wes?
因此，我经常在播客上与嘉宾一起做的事情，甚至不经常，总是，我会向与嘉宾合作过的人询问，“我应该问韦斯什么？
What should I know about Wes?" Let me read a few quotes about you in regards to your communication skills from folks that have worked with you-
关于韦斯我应该知道些什么？”让我读一下与您共事过的人关于您的沟通技巧的一些引言——
Lenny Rachitsky: And these are three different people.
Lenny Rachitsky：这是三个不同的人。
Okay, so first, "Wes single handedly raised the quality of the entire company's writing by like two X across the board.
好吧，首先，“韦斯一手将整个公司的写作质量提高了两个 X。
I always say the best writing course I ever took was working with Wes for a year."
我总是说我上过的最好的写作课程就是和韦斯一起工作一年。”
Lenny Rachitsky: "Wes never just throws things out there, she's precise with her use of language, meticulous about examining her own ideas before bringing them in front of others and knows how to make her points in a way that people will understand them and buy into them." Okay.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：“韦斯从来不只是把东西扔在那里，她对语言的使用很精确，在把自己的想法带到别人面前之前会一丝不苟地审视自己的想法，并且知道如何以人们能够理解和接受的方式表达自己的观点。”好的。
And third, "Wes includes a reasoning with every proposal in the context behind all of her recommendations so that everyone around her learns in order of magnitude faster.
第三，“韦斯在她所有建议背后的背景下对每项建议都进行了推理，以便她周围的每个人都能更快地学习。
This also makes her an exceptional teacher because she can clearly define what excellence is and why something is the goal, and then break down the steps and principles involved." Okay, reactions.
这也使她成为一名出色的老师，因为她可以清楚地定义什么是卓越以及为什么某件事是目标，然后分解所涉及的步骤和原则。”好吧，反应。
Wes Kao: Those are really nice things.
Wes Kao：这些都是非常好的事情。
That's amazing.
太棒了。
Yeah, thank you so much.
是的，非常感谢。
Lenny Rachitsky: And these are people across different companies, so.
Lenny Rachitsky：这些人来自不同公司，所以。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, so that was just to highlight of how good you are at this stuff.
Lenny Rachitsky：好的，这只是为了强调你在这方面有多擅长。
And what we're going to be doing with our chat is going through a bunch of your tactics that you teach and that have helped people become better communicators, executive communicators, better at influence.
我们将通过聊天来了解您教授的一系列策略，这些策略帮助人们成为更好的沟通者、执行沟通者、更善于影响力。
Before we get into the specific tactics, is there anything that you think is important for people to understand just broadly around the skill of becoming a better communicator?
在我们讨论具体策略之前，您认为对于人们广泛了解成为更好的沟通者的技能来说，有什么重要的事情吗？
Wes Kao: I often see operators who explain things poorly and then are shocked and horrified when people are confused or there's skepticism, there's apathy, there's a lot of avoidable questions, and I'm a big proponent of asking myself, "If I'm not getting the reaction that I'm looking for, how might I be contributing to that?" So, you know, instead of blaming other people for not understanding me, I think about how could I explain this more clearly?
Wes Kao：我经常看到操作员解释得很糟糕，然后当人们感到困惑或怀疑、冷漠、有很多可以避免的问题时感到震惊和恐惧，我非常支持问自己，“如果我没有得到我想要的反应，我该如何为此做出贡献？”所以，你知道，我不会责怪其他人不理解我，而是思考如何才能更清楚地解释这一点？
How can I be more compelling?
我怎样才能更有说服力？
How can I anticipate any questions that they might have?
我如何预测他们可能提出的任何问题？
So I'm a big proponent of agency.
所以我是代理的大力支持者。
And realizing that we can only control our own behavior.
并意识到我们只能控制自己的行为。
And so the best place to start, if you're not getting the reaction you're looking for, is reflecting on how can I get better at the skill of communicating?
因此，如果你没有得到你想要的反应，最好的起点就是反思我如何才能提高沟通技巧？
And it absolutely is a skill.
这绝对是一项技能。
Lenny Rachitsky: So what I'm hearing is if you're having a hard time people buying into what you're trying to convince them to do or you're finding people are doing not what you asked them to do, it's likely an issue with your ability to communicate, it's probably not their fault.
Lenny Rachitsky：所以我听到的是，如果你很难让人们接受你试图说服他们做的事情，或者你发现人们没有按照你要求他们做的事情，这可能是你沟通能力的问题，这可能不是他们的错。
Wes Kao: Yeah, I would say so.
高伟雄：是的，我会这么说。
You can't solve everything with improving your communication, but you can increase the likelihood of getting what you want.
你不能通过改善沟通来解决所有问题，但可以增加获得你想要的东西的可能性。
Lenny Rachitsky: Cool.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：酷。
Okay.
好的。
Anything else along these lines of just things that are important to understand just broadly around communication, executive communication?
除了这些对于广泛理解沟通、高管沟通很重要的事情之外，还有什么其他的事情吗？
Wes Kao: I think another big one that I teach in my course and really kick off with is practicing like it's game day, playing like it's game day.
Wes Kao：我认为我在课程中教授的另一项重要内容是像比赛日一样练习，像比赛日一样打球。
So I see a lot of operators who save their best behavior for executives only.
所以我看到很多经营者只为高管保留最好的行为。
So you know, they want to shine when they're presenting to senior leadership, but with everyone else, they're kind of calling it.
所以你知道，当他们向高级领导层展示时，他们希望表现出色，但对于其他人来说，他们就是这样称呼的。
And I just don't think that you're going to be able to get enough reps to actually get good at executive communication if you are only doing it with executives.
我只是认为，如果你只与高管进行沟通，你就无法获得足够的代表来真正擅长高管沟通。
Because many of us only present to execs once a month, right?
因为我们中的许多人每月只向高管汇报一次，对吗？
Or a couple of times a quarter.
或者每个季度几次。
And that's just not a lot of chance to practice.
而且这并不是很多练习的机会。
So really treating every single stakeholder as if they are important because they are, and you shouldn't be if you don't want to waste your CEO's time, you also shouldn't waste your cross-functional team members' time or your manager's time or your direct reports' time.
因此，真正对待每一个利益相关者就好像他们很重要，因为他们确实很重要，如果你不想浪费首席执行官的时间，你就不应该这样做，你也不应该浪费你的跨职能团队成员的时间或你的经理的时间或你的直接报告的时间。
So that's something else that I ask to keep in mind.
所以这是我要求牢记的另一件事。
Lenny Rachitsky: And maybe a last question before we get into the tactics.
Lenny Rachitsky：也许是我们进入策略之前的最后一个问题。
When people think communication, they think email, they think meeting presentations, things like that.
当人们想到沟通时，他们会想到电子邮件、会议演示等。
How do you think about, when you talk about executive communication and communication in general, what's kind of the umbrella of things that includes?
当您谈论高管沟通和一般沟通时，您如何看待其中包括哪些内容？
Wes Kao: Yeah, I would say broadly the two mediums are verbal communication and written.
高伟雄：是的，我想说，广义上来说，这两种媒介是口头交流和书面交流。
So verbal being meetings, conversations, presentations.
口头就是会议、对话、演示。
And written being emails, strategy docs, notion docs, Slack messages, text messages, those two categories broadly.
书面内容包括电子邮件、策略文档、概念文档、Slack 消息、短信，广义上这两类。
And I also think about communication as more of a means to an end, which might be interesting for some people because I teach a course on communication.
我还认为沟通更多地是达到目的的一种手段，这可能对某些人来说很有趣，因为我教授一门关于沟通的课程。
So you would think that's like the end in and of itself, but I really see it as a means to an end where the end is getting the ideal outcome you're looking for.
所以你可能会认为这本身就是终点，但我确实将其视为达到终点的一种手段，终点是获得你正在寻找的理想结果。
So whether that is buy-in or making a good decision as a team or moving to the next step, whatever that might be, communication is really in service of that end goal.
因此，无论是支持还是作为一个团队做出正确的决定，或者进入下一步，无论是什么，沟通确实是为了实现最终目标。
Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
Okay.
好的。
So I made a list of people's favorite tactics and frameworks and approaches that you teach, and talking to folks that you've taught and folks that you've worked with.
因此，我列出了人们最喜欢的策略、框架和你教授的方法，并与你教过的人和与你共事过的人交谈。
So I'm just going to go through a bunch and let's just help people get better at these things.
因此，我将介绍一些内容，让我们帮助人们在这些事情上做得更好。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。
So the first is something you call sales, then logistics.
因此，第一个是销售，然后是物流。
What is that about?
那是关于什么的？
Wes Kao: Yes.
高伟雄：是的。
So a common mistake that I see is overestimating the amount of buy-in that you have from your audience.
因此，我发现的一个常见错误是高估了观众的支持程度。
So that looks like jumping straight into talking about the logistics, the details of the how to do something, of the process.
因此，这看起来像是直接开始谈论后勤工作，即如何做某事的细节，以及流程的细节。
When in reality your audience has not yet decided if they even want to do the thing.
事实上，你的听众还没有决定他们是否想做这件事。
So what I see operators do in response then is go even deeper into the logistics and the how, thinking that, "Oh, if I just explain this more than that person will want to do it." When really a sales note is different than a logistics note.
因此，我看到运营商的回应是更深入地了解物流和运作方式，并认为，“哦，如果我只是解释这一点，那么那个人就不会愿意这样做。”实际上，销售单据与物流单据不同。
A sales note is meant to get people excited to do the thing you want them to do, and to agree to do it.
销售说明的目的是让人们兴奋地去做你希望他们做的事情，并同意这样做。
And only then after they have bought in, does it make sense to share the logistics.
只有在他们购买后，共享物流才有意义。
Wes Kao: So there's an order of operations here.
Wes Kao：所以这里有一个操作顺序。
If you switch the order of operations, you will likely get a slow response or just no response, right?
如果你改变操作顺序，你可能会得到缓慢的响应或根本没有响应，对吧？
We've all put a Slack message in a channel and got crickets and tumbleweed.
我们都在频道中添加了 Slack 消息，并收到了蟋蟀和风滚草。
So really starting off with selling the person and making sure that they know why we're doing this, why this matters to the company, why now, and then sharing the logistics tends to be a lot more effective.
因此，真正从向人员推销开始，并确保他们知道我们为什么要这样做、为什么这对公司很重要、为什么现在，然后共享物流往往会更有效。
Lenny Rachitsky: Is there an example of that that might help illustrate that point or that approach?
Lenny Rachitsky：有没有一个例子可以帮助说明这一点或这种方法？
Wes Kao: Yeah.
高伟雄：是的。
So one of my clients is a head of operations and she was trying to get the rest of her executive team, which she was a part of, to fill in some wins for the week so that they could share this out with the whole company.
我的一位客户是运营主管，她试图让她所属的执行团队的其他成员填写本周的一些成果，以便他们可以与整个公司分享。
And this was going to be motivating, it was going to shine a light on folks.
这将激励人们，照亮人们。
And she led with the logistics of which document to send, to put the details in, what time to put it in by, the format that you should put these wins and didn't really get much of a response from the leadership team, which makes sense, right?
她领导了发送哪些文件、放入详细信息、什么时间放入、应该放置这些胜利的格式等后勤工作，但并没有得到领导团队的太多回应，这是有道理的，对吗？
Because this totally sounds like one of those things that's another item to check off on your list when you already have so many other things to do and here's this other process that like we're all supposed to do now, like yay, right?
因为这听起来完全像是其中一件事情，当你已经有很多其他事情要做时，这是你清单上要核对的另一件事，而这是我们现在都应该做的另一个过程，就像是的，对吧？
And so she wasn't really getting response.
所以她并没有真正得到回应。
And that's because she dove straight into logistics.
那是因为她直接投身于物流领域。
Wes Kao: Whereas what she could have done is start by selling folks, selling the other executives on why are we doing this?
Wes Kao：而她本可以做的就是首先向员工推销，向其他高管推销我们为什么要这样做？
Well, we're doing this because this is a chance to shine a light on your team members who are doing amazing work, for them to feel motivated and to feel like the rest of the company really sees them and understands what they're doing.
好吧，我们这样做是因为这是一个机会，可以让您的团队成员看到他们所做的出色工作，让他们感到有动力，并感觉公司的其他人真正看到他们并理解他们在做什么。
And this is all something that is going to motivate your team, right?
这一切都会激励您的团队，对吧？
So sharing why this is helpful and useful and how this is in service of you and your team versus like, "Oh, this is a favor that you're doing for me to fill out this form and fill it out this way and by this date," et cetera, et cetera.
因此，分享为什么这有帮助和有用，以及这如何为你和你的团队服务，而不是像“哦，这是你帮我填写这张表格并在这个日期之前以这种方式填写”等等，等等。
Lenny Rachitsky: I know that execs often want the opposite where they're just like, "Okay, I know, just tell me what you want to do.
Lenny Rachitsky：我知道高管们常常想要相反的结果，他们会说：“好吧，我知道，只需告诉我你想做什么。
Just like, okay, just get to the point.
就像，好吧，进入正题吧。
I don't want time for all this context and background." Any advice on when to spend any time on the sales?
我不想花时间了解所有这些背景和背景。”关于何时花时间进行销售有什么建议吗？
Like what are signs that, okay, maybe you don't have them sold yet, or what are maybe contexts where you should probably still try to sell them first?
就像什么迹象表明，好吧，也许你还没有出售它们，或者在什么情况下你可能仍然应该首先尝试出售它们？
Wes Kao: Yeah.
高伟雄：是的。
So I actually think that you should always do a little bit of selling even for situations where people have generally bought in.
所以我实际上认为，即使在人们普遍买入的情况下，你也应该总是做一点卖出。
Because most of us have a lot going on and we're not actively thinking about whatever you're talking about.
因为我们大多数人都有很多事情要做，而我们并没有积极思考你正在谈论的任何事情。
So even though I agreed to something two weeks ago, by the time you're telling me about it again, like I thought about a billion other things since then, right?
因此，即使我两周前同意了某件事，当你再次告诉我这件事时，就像从那时起我思考了十亿件其他事情一样，对吧？
So reminding me of why are we talking about this?
所以提醒我为什么我们要谈论这个？
Why does this matter?
为什么这很重要？
And then getting into it and framing that conversation upfront is way more likely for us to not get stuck in a cold start and not kind of go two steps back one step forward.
然后进入其中并预先构建对话，这样我们就更有可能不会陷入冷启动，也不会后退一步。
Wes Kao: The other thing is, you can frame a conversation and sell a bit at the beginning very concisely.
Wes Kao：另一件事是，你可以在开始时非常简洁地构建一个对话并推销一点。
So I'm not talking about spending 15 minutes out of a 30 minute meeting selling, I'm talking about one to two minutes, even a couple sentences, and then transitioning into the main thing you want to talk about.
所以我不是说在 30 分钟的会议中花 15 分钟进行销售，我说的是一到两分钟，甚至几句话，然后过渡到你想谈论的主要内容。
So I'm a huge proponent of doing that and basically reminding people, why are we doing this?
所以我非常支持这样做，并基本上提醒人们，我们为什么要这样做？
Why are we here today?
我们今天为什么在这里？
Why does this matter?
为什么这很重要？
And then getting into the meat.
然后就进入肉里了。
Lenny Rachitsky: I love that.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢这个。
So basically you can do this really briefly, it doesn't have to be a whole pitch for half an hour.
所以基本上你可以非常简短地做这件事，不必是半个小时的整个演讲。
It's just a reminder, "Here's why we think this is important." And I think that's such a good point because a lot of times it's like a leader is looking at this thing you're asking them to do and they're like, "Why are we even, why am I spending time on this?" And just a reminder of like, "Okay, I see, I forgot this was going to be, this a part of our strategy, this has this much impact potential or here's how it could help our team be more efficient."
这只是一个提醒，“这就是为什么我们认为这很重要。”我认为这是一个很好的观点，因为很多时候，就像一个领导者正在考虑你要求他们做的这件事，他们会说，“为什么我们是平等的，为什么我要花时间在这上面？”只是提醒一下，“好吧，我明白了，我忘了这将是我们战略的一部分，这具有很大的影响潜力，或者这就是它如何帮助我们的团队提高效率。”
Wes Kao: Yeah.
高伟雄：是的。
And you can really do that in like 30 seconds.
您确实可以在 30 秒内完成此操作。
Lenny Rachitsky: Is there like a, I don't know, structure to this?
Lenny Rachitsky：我不知道这是否有一个结构？
Is it just like why?
是不是就像为什么一样？
Is there a kind of a template you like or some way you recommend of selling first?
有没有您喜欢的模板或您推荐的先销售方式？
Is it like, "Here's why we're doing this." Starting like that?
是不是像“这就是我们这样做的原因”？就这样开始吗？
Anything along those lines?
有什么类似的事情吗？
Wes Kao: Yeah.
高伟雄：是的。
I think explaining why we're doing this, why this benefits the business, what problem this is solving.
我想解释一下我们为什么要这样做，为什么这对业务有利，这要解决什么问题。
Again, you can do a lot of this in a couple of sentences.
同样，您可以用几句话完成很多事情。
And then I also like asking or stating what I need from the other person upfront.
然后我也喜欢提前询问或陈述我需要对方做什么。
So saying, "Hey, we're here today because two weeks ago we were reviewing the product flow and realized that there were a couple of parts that were kind of confusing.
所以说，“嘿，我们今天在这里是因为两周前我们正在审查产品流程，并意识到有几个部分有点令人困惑。
So I took a stab at fixing those areas, rewriting the microcopy, and I want to present them to you today, see if you agree with these changes, and then we're going to roll them out.
因此，我尝试修复这些区域，重写微文，今天我想将它们呈现给你们，看看你们是否同意这些更改，然后我们将推出它们。
What I'm looking for from you is feedback on the changes and if you agree." So like that was like 15 seconds, right?
我正在寻找您对这些变化的反馈以及您是否同意。”就这样，大约 15 秒，对吧？
Super fast.
超级快。
And then now we're all on the same page about why we're here.
现在我们对于我们来这里的原因达成了共识。
And you can listen more intently knowing that I'm looking for a certain kind of feedback.
你可以更专心地倾听，知道我正在寻找某种反馈。
Lenny Rachitsky: I would love to hear it that way.
Lenny Rachitsky：我很乐意听到这样的说法。
I think there's like an implication here that maybe is worth sharing of just, a lot of this is about communicating effectively to execs, which will make you communicate better to most people.
我认为这里有一个暗示，也许值得分享，其中很多都是关于与高管进行有效沟通，这将使你更好地与大多数人沟通。
But especially with folks up the ladder.
但尤其是对于那些处于阶梯上的人。
They don't have a lot of time, they have a million things in their head.
他们没有很多时间，他们脑子里有一百万件事。
Maybe just share like why this is so important, like what the state of mind of a leader is that you need to kind of break through.
也许只是分享为什么这如此重要，比如你需要突破的领导者的心态是什么。
Wes Kao: Yeah.
高伟雄：是的。
So I call it the yes, yes, yes, next, next, next mindset where if I'm listening to direct reports present something to me, very often I find myself thinking, "Got it.
所以我称之为是，是，是，下一个，下一个，下一个心态，如果我在听直接报告向我展示一些东西，我经常发现自己在想，“明白了。
All right, yes, let's keep going." Right?
好吧，是的，我们继续吧。”正确的？
And you know, on the other side of that, I've often presented to executives where I had a 15 slide deck and execs would do that and I'd be like, whoa, whoa, whoa.
你知道，另一方面，我经常向高管展示我有 15 张幻灯片，高管们会这样做，我会说，哇，哇，哇。
Like I have a whole sequence, I have a whole order, you know?
就像我有一个完整的序列，我有一个完整的顺序，你知道吗？
And sometimes they would give me buy or make the decision by slide four, you know?
有时他们会让我购买或通过第四张幻灯片做出决定，你知道吗？
And I'd be like, "Okay, well you know, slide 13, I want to show you this great graph I put together." Right?
我会说，“好吧，你知道，幻灯片 13，我想向你展示我制作的这张很棒的图表。”正确的？
And what was really helpful for me was realizing that I should take the win.
对我来说真正有帮助的是意识到我应该赢得胜利。
Okay, if five seconds already agreed, take the win and keep it moving, move on.
好吧，如果五秒钟已经达成一致，那就赢得胜利并继续前进，继续前进。
Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。
What's that quote like?
那句话是什么样的？
"If you've sold them, stop talking."
“如果你已经把它们卖了，就别再说了。”
Wes Kao: Right.
高伟雄：对。
Yes.
是的。
Yeah, you might talk them out of agreeing.
是的，你可以说服他们不要同意。
Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。
Okay.
好的。
You mentioned being concise.
你提到要简洁。
Let's talk about that.
我们来谈谈这个吧。
You have some really good advice on just how to effectively be concise and not too concise.
关于如何有效地简洁而不是过于简洁，您有一些非常好的建议。
What's your advice there?
你有什么建议？
Wes Kao: Yes.
高伟雄：是的。
One of my pet peeves is when people are too concise and they equate being concise with brief, being brief.
我最讨厌的事情之一是人们过于简洁，他们将简洁等同于简短，简短。
And being concise is not about absolute word count, it's about economy of words.
简洁并不是绝对字数的问题，而是字数的节约。
It's about the density of the insight that you're sharing.
这与您所分享的见解的密度有关。
And so you can have a 300 word memo that's meandering and long-winded and a thousand word memo that is tight and concise.
因此，您可以拥有一份曲折冗长的 300 字备忘录和紧凑而简洁的 1000 字备忘录。
And so not equating concision with briefness I think is a really big one to understand.
因此，我认为不要将简洁与简洁等同起来，这是一个非常需要理解的问题。
Wes Kao: The second thing is a lot of advice about being concise, I think misses an important point.
Wes Kao：第二件事是很多关于简洁的建议，我认为忽略了重要的一点。
So we've all heard, "Don't bury the lead, cut to the chase." Main point, put the main point at the top, bottom line up front, right?
所以我们都听过这样一句话：“不要埋头苦干，切入正题。”要点，要点放在上面，底线放在前面，对吗？
And all of these pithy aphorisms assume that you actually know what your core point is.
所有这些精辟的格言都假设你实际上知道你的核心观点是什么。
So you can't cut to the chase unless you know what the chase is.
因此，除非你知道追逐的是什么，否则你无法切入主题。
You can't unbury the lead unless you know what the lead is.
除非你知道铅是什么，否则你无法解开铅。
And so that I found is the bottleneck to being concise.
所以我发现简洁是瓶颈。
It's actually not really being clear of what you are thinking, that's what's leading to being long-winded.
其实并不是自己真正清楚自己在想什么，所以才导致啰嗦。
Wes Kao: And you can kind of test this theory because most of us have a go-to story that we've told a bunch of times, right?
Wes Kao：你可以测试一下这个理论，因为我们大多数人都有一个已经讲过很多次的经典故事，对吧？
We're like, you know exactly when people are going to laugh, you know when they're going to gasp or hold their breath, right?
我们就像，你确切地知道人们什么时候会笑，你知道他们什么时候会喘气或屏住呼吸，对吗？
And why are you so good at telling that story and why are you so concise about it?
为什么你这么擅长讲这个故事，为什么你讲得如此简洁？
Because you've told it a bunch of times, you know all of the beats.
因为你已经讲过很多次了，所以你知道所有的节拍。
So in meetings though, at work, we are very rarely talking about the same thing that many times it's always something new.
因此，在会议和工作中，我们很少谈论同一件事，很多时候它总是新的东西。
It's something that we are also probably likely processing ourselves and are in the midst of processing as we are in a quick turnaround time, telling someone else about it, telling our team about it.
这是我们自己也可能正在处理的事情，并且正在处理中，因为我们正处于快速周转时间，告诉其他人，告诉我们的团队。
And so you are basically asking your brain to do a lot of different processes, especially in a real time conversation.
所以你基本上是在要求你的大脑做很多不同的过程，尤其是在实时对话中。
You're listening to the other person absorbing, making sense of it, processing it, figuring out what you think and how you would react.
你正在倾听对方的吸收、理解、处理，弄清楚你的想法以及你会如何反应。
Wes Kao: And then trying to say something cohesive that makes sense, right?
Wes Kao：然后尝试说一些有凝聚力、有道理的话，对吗？
And then trying to be concise about it.
然后尝试简洁明了。
So it's just a lot of different processes.
所以这只是很多不同的过程。
And so the only solution I found consistently to being concise is preparation.
因此，我发现始终保持简洁的唯一解决方案就是准备。
It's not a very glamorous solution by any means, but the clearer I am going into a meeting, going into a conversation, going into a pitch, the better I am at being concise and being able to bring the conversation back to the most important points at being able to stay flexible, but also firm and preparation.
无论如何，这都不是一个非常迷人的解决方案，但是我在参加会议、谈话、推销时越清晰，我就越能简洁明了，并能够将谈话带回最重要的要点，既能保持灵活性，又能保持坚定和准备。
I don't mean spending hours and hours preparing for a weekly meeting, even a couple of minutes really makes a huge difference.
我并不是说要花几个小时准备每周的会议，即使是几分钟也确实会产生巨大的影响。
Wes Kao: Most of us are so back to back in meetings that we're doing zero preparation.
Wes Kao：我们大多数人都在连续开会，以至于我们在做零准备。
It's like the meeting has started 30 seconds in and you're still unwinding from the last Zoom call that you were on, right?
就好像会议已经开始 30 秒，而您仍在从上次参加的 Zoom 通话中放松下来，对吧？
So most of us are in that mental state.
所以我们大多数人都处于这种心理状态。
So if you even take 30 seconds to one minute to ground yourself on why am I in this meeting?
那么，如果您花 30 秒到 1 分钟的时间来了解一下我为什么参加这次会议？
What do I want to share and make sure I get across in the time that we have, you're going to go in there so much more focused and so much more able to be concise.
我想分享什么，并确保我能在我们所拥有的时间里得到传达，你会更加专注，更加能够简洁。
Lenny Rachitsky: So the advice there, so this is for meetings and I want to talk about writing also, but for meetings, the advice here is before you get into a meeting, actually think about why am I in this meeting?
Lenny Rachitsky：所以这里的建议是针对会议的，我也想谈谈写作，但是对于会议，这里的建议是在你参加会议之前，实际上想想我为什么参加这次会议？
What do I want to get out of it?
我想从中得到什么？
Instead of in the meeting figuring out a lot as you go, which to your point, you're just going to ramble and be like, "Oh, okay, here's what I actually want to say."
你不会在会议中边走边想出很多关于你的观点的内容，而是会漫无目的地说，“哦，好吧，这就是我真正想说的。”
Wes Kao: Yeah.
高伟雄：是的。
And what might I want to share in the meeting too?
我还想在会议中分享什么？
You know, especially for more introverted folks.
你知道，尤其是对于比较内向的人来说。
Sometimes you need to decide beforehand that you want to speak and you want to make sure you get a certain point across.
有时您需要事先决定要发言，并且要确保表达清楚某个观点。
So even deciding that beforehand makes a huge difference.
因此，即使事先做出决定也会产生巨大的差异。
Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, I found this extremely powerful just like five minutes before you get into a meeting.
Lenny Rachitsky：是的，我发现这非常强大，就像你在开会前五分钟一样。
And it could happen earlier in the day, right?
它可能会在当天早些时候发生，对吗？
It doesn't have to happen right before the meeting, or worst case, it's right before the meeting.
它不一定要在会议之前发生，或者最坏的情况是在会议之前发生。
Just, "Okay, what do I want to get out of this?
只是，“好吧，我想从中得到什么？
What am I here?
我在这里是什么？
What do I want to say?" And just like giving your brain a little bit of time to prepare.
我想说什么？”就像给你的大脑一点时间准备一样。
Super powerful.
超级强大。
In writing, is there like any tactics you can share for someone to be a little more concise?
在写作中，您是否可以分享一些技巧，让别人更简洁一些？
Wes Kao: I think the main tactic is to remind yourself to be concise.
Wes Kao：我认为主要策略是提醒自己要简洁。
And usually when I do that, I end up trimming 20% at least of what I wrote, tightening up some sentences.
通常当我这样做时，我最终会删减至少 20% 的内容，收紧一些句子。
I also ask myself, how might I be adding cognitive load to whatever it is that I'm saying?
我还问自己，我如何为我所说的内容增加认知负担？
So is there a tighter, clearer, cleaner way that I can ask what I'm asking or present the information I'm presenting or make the recommendation that I'm making?
那么，是否有一种更严格、更清晰、更干净的方式让我可以提出我要问的问题或呈现我正在呈现的信息或提出我正在提出的建议？
And usually if you even ask yourself that, your brain automatically comes up with stuff.
通常，如果你问自己这个问题，你的大脑就会自动想出一些东西。
You just see whatever you wrote differently and you're like, "Oh shit, I could trim this entire paragraph because that's secondary." And maybe you have your primary message in Slack, and then within the thread add some of the secondary stuff, right?
你只是看到你写的不同的东西，然后你会想，“哦，糟糕，我可以修剪整个段落，因为那是次要的。”也许您在 Slack 中拥有主要消息，然后在线程中添加一些次要内容，对吗？
So I find that most of us, it's reminding yourself to be concise.
所以我发现我们大多数人都会提醒自己要简洁。
And once you think of it, your brain naturally will see places where you can trim.
一旦你想到了，你的大脑自然就会看到可以修剪的地方。
Lenny Rachitsky: There's a layer of advice under this that you're not saying that I'm going to say, which is actually look at the thing you wrote at least once before you share it.
Lenny Rachitsky：这下面有一层建议，你不会说我要说的，这实际上是在分享之前至少看一次你写的东西。
Because I used to be really bad at this.
因为我以前在这方面真的很糟糕。
I just like, "Okay, I don't have time.
我只是喜欢说：“好吧，我没有时间。
I wrote this doc, send it, get feedback.
我写了这个文档，发送它，获取反馈。
Lenny Rachitsky: ...
莱尼·拉奇茨基：……
really bad at this.
真的很不擅长这个。
I just like, "Okay, I don't have time.
我只是喜欢说：“好吧，我没有时间。
We wrote this doc, send it, get feedback.
我们编写了这份文档，发送它，获取反馈。
All right.
好的。
Send this email.
发送此电子邮件。
I don't have time to read this email." And I find just forcing yourself to look at it solves so much of this.
我没有时间读这封电子邮件。”我发现只要强迫自己看它就可以解决很多问题。
Wes Kao: Oh, yes, yes, definitely.
高伟雄：哦，是的，是的，当然。
I was assuming before doing that, but you're right, some people might not be.
我在这样做之前就假设了，但你是对的，有些人可能不是。
And yes, definitely reading your own message first is huge.
是的，首先阅读自己的信息肯定是很重要的。
And yeah, I find that even doing that you can often spot a lot of low-hanging fruit.
是的，我发现即使这样做，你也经常能发现很多容易实现的目标。
Lenny Rachitsky: Right.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：对。
You'll find the typos and grammar issues and you'll be like, "Oh, I don't need this word." Along those lines, let me share two books.
你会发现拼写错误和语法问题，然后你会说，“哦，我不需要这个词。”沿着这些思路，让我分享两本书。
People always ask me, "How did you learn to write?" I'm like, "I'm not a writer, I don't know what I'm doing." But two books really helped me write more effectively.
人们总是问我：“你是怎么学会写作的？”我想，“我不是作家，我不知道自己在做什么。”但有两本书确实帮助我更有效地写作。
And one is specifically to help you write more concisely called On Writing Well.
其中一个是专门帮助你写得更简洁的，称为“写得好”。
I don't know if you've read that.
我不知道你是否读过。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。
And it's basically chapter after chapter of, "Here's what you can cut.
基本上是一章接着一章，“这就是你可以删掉的内容。
And you can cut more.
而且你还可以削减更多。
And look what more you can cut and cut this stuff." And he has screenshots of essays that students have written in his class and he's like, "Look at all those words you cut and nothing has changed.
看看你还可以删减这些东西。”他有学生在课堂上写的论文的屏幕截图，他说，“看看你删掉的所有这些词，什么都没有改变。
It's exactly the same message and even is better with 40% of the words cut."
内容完全一样，甚至删掉 40% 的话效果更好。”
Wes Kao: Is this by Sol Stein or another author?
Wes Kao：这是 Sol Stein 还是其他作者的作品？
Lenny Rachitsky: I don't have it...
莱尼·拉奇茨基：我没有……
It's somewhere in my bookshelf.
它在我书架的某个地方。
So we'll look it up.
所以我们会查一下。
Wes Kao: Yeah, there's a writing book by Sol Stein that I absolutely love.
Wes Kao：是的，我非常喜欢 Sol Stein 的一本写作书。
And I feel like it might be called On Writing Well, but then also I could see there being multiple books called On Writing Well.
我觉得它可能会被称为《论写作好》，但我也看到有很多本书叫做《论写作好》。
Lenny Rachitsky: There's also Writing Well I think by Stephen King, that's another one that people love, but there On Writing Well is the one I really loved because it's very tactical.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：我认为还有斯蒂芬·金的《写作得好》，这是人们喜欢的另一本书，但《论写作得好》是我真正喜欢的一本，因为它非常有策略性。
Wes Kao: Going back to something that you were saying earlier with rereading what you wrote, I think the blast radius of a poorly written memo is way bigger than most people think.
Wes Kao：回到你之前所说的，重读你写的内容，我认为一份写得不好的备忘录的影响范围比大多数人想象的要大得多。
So if you're just shooting off a message in a Slack channel with 15 other people and it's confusing and you didn't include information you should have included, there's going to be a bunch of back and forth.
因此，如果您只是在 Slack 频道中与其他 15 个人一起发布一条消息，并且内容令人困惑，并且您没有包含应该包含的信息，那么将会出现大量的来回。
All 15 of these people are reading this being like, "Okay, what do I do with this?"
所有 15 个人读到这篇文章时都会想，“好吧，我该怎么处理这个？”
Wes Kao: Whereas if you had just taken another look at it, those 15 people would be off to the races.
Wes Kao：而如果你再看一遍，那 15 个人就会参加比赛。
They would've read your message and then known exactly what to do next or what their part was or what you were looking for from them.
他们会阅读您的消息，然后确切地知道下一步该做什么，或者他们的职责是什么，或者您想从他们那里得到什么。
So I think about that a lot too.
所以我也想了很多。
It's not just me writing this and sending it off.
不只是我写下这篇文章并将其发送出去。
It's, "Who are all the people who are going to come in contact with this message who are going to refer to it and use it?
它是，“所有将接触此消息、将参考并使用它的人是谁？
And if I just take 30 more seconds to make sure that it's clean, how much can I unblock from their work?"
如果我再多花 30 秒来确保它是干净的，我可以在多大程度上解除他们的工作障碍？”
Lenny Rachitsky: That's such a good point.
Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个很好的观点。
I like that, I love that term blast radius.
我喜欢这个，我喜欢“爆炸半径”这个词。
It's such a good point.
这是一个很好的观点。
Just like there's so much negative leverage in writing inefficiently and inconcisely.
就像低效和不简洁的写作会带来很多负面影响一样。
If you spend like...
如果你花费像...
Inconcisely?
言简意赅？
I don't know the word is there, but if you just spend three minutes spending a little more time making it more clear just like the impact and leverage that has, that's such a good point.
我不知道这个词在那里，但如果你花三分钟，多花一点时间让它变得更清楚，就像它所带来的影响和影响力一样，这是一个很好的观点。
I looked up the books, it's so funny.
我查了一下书，真的很有趣。
Okay, so there's On Writing Well by William Zinsser.
好的，下面是威廉·辛瑟 (William Zinsser) 的《论写作》。
There's Stein On Writing by Sol Stein, which is what you said you were talking about.
索尔·斯坦（Sol Stein）的《斯坦因写作》（Stein Onwriting）就是你所说的。
And then Stephen King has a book called On Writing.
然后斯蒂芬·金有一本书叫《论写作》。
Everyone's got the same.
每个人都一样。
Lenny Rachitsky: Not ideal for SEO but On Writing Well is the one that I love by William Zinsser.
Lenny Rachitsky：对于 SEO 来说并不理想，但我很喜欢 William Zinsser 的《论写作》。
There's also one called A Series Of Short Sentences if you haven't seen that one.
如果您还没有看过《一系列短句》，那么还有一个。
It's a really good rate too.
这也是一个非常好的利率。
It's just how to write short sentences and just the power of just keeping sentences short, which I struggle with.
这就是如何写短句子以及保持短句子的力量，这是我所苦苦挣扎的。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。
Back to our agenda.
回到我们的议程。
There's another framework/tactic that I've heard you recommend.
我听你推荐了另一种框架/策略。
It's called signposting.
这就是所谓的路标。
What is signposting?
什么是路标？
Wes Kao: Signposting is using certain words, phrases, formatting, and an overall structure in your writing that helps guide your reader and signals what is coming in the rest of the post.
Wes Kao：路标是在写作中使用某些单词、短语、格式和整体结构，帮助引导读者并表明文章其余部分的内容。
So, this is especially helpful if you have a long memo.
因此，如果您的备忘录很长，这尤其有用。
It adds structure to where are we going and what certain sections of paragraphs are about.
它为我们要去哪里以及段落的某些部分的内容添加了结构。
So some of my favorite signposting words are, "for example," shows that you're about to show an example because shows that you're about to share your logic and rationale behind something.
因此，我最喜欢的一些路标词是“例如”，表明您将要展示一个示例，因为表明您将要分享某件事背后的逻辑和基本原理。
"As a next step," is a great one.
“作为下一步”是一个伟大的目标。
People's eyes automatically zoom to, "as a next step." Even "First, second, third," kicking off a paragraph with that, you're not needing to rely on rich text formatting with bolding, italics, underlines and all that craziness.
人们的目光自动聚焦到“下一步”。即使是“第一、第二、第三”，以此作为段落的开头，您也不需要依赖带有粗体、斜体、下划线和所有这些疯狂的富文本格式。
If you kick off sentences with signposting words, you can often signal, "Here's what I'm about to talk about in this paragraph."
如果你用路标词开始句子，你通常可以发出信号：“这就是我要在本段中讨论的内容。”
Lenny Rachitsky: These are power words for clarity.
Lenny Rachitsky：为了清晰起见，这些都是有力的词语。
There's this whole concept of power words like, "free."
这就是像“免费”这样充满力量的词语的整个概念。
Lenny Rachitsky: "Gift." Yeah.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：“礼物。”是的。
For copywriting and these are basically power words for helping your brain see the structure and get to the thing you want to pay attention to.
对于文案写作来说，这些基本上都是有力的词汇，可以帮助你的大脑了解结构并找到你想要关注的内容。
So I'll read back the words you just used.
所以我会再读一遍你刚才用过的话。
"For example," " because," "as a next step," and then, "first, second, third."
“例如，”“因为”，“作为下一步”，然后是“第一、第二、第三”。
Wes Kao: Yeah.
高伟雄：是的。
Yeah.
是的。
You can use signposting in writing and verbally too.
您也可以以书面和口头方式使用路标。
So if you're doing a product demo, you might say something like, "The most important part to pay attention to is, blank." Or, "The part that we were most surprised by is, blank." Or, "The part that customers are," et cetera.
因此，如果您正在做产品演示，您可能会说“最需要注意的部分是空白”。或者，“我们最惊讶的部分是空白。”或者，“客户所在的部分”等等。
Right?
对吗？
So it's, you're signaling that whatever comes after this thing is something that you may want to pay attention to.
所以，你是在发出信号，表明这件事之后发生的任何事情都是你可能想要关注的事情。
So it's a great way not only to add structure, but to also grab people's attention back if it has strayed some time as they were either listening to you or reading.
因此，这不仅是增加结构的好方法，而且还可以在人们在听你讲话或阅读时分散注意力的情况下重新吸引他们的注意力。
Lenny Rachitsky: Along those lines, I find I find formatting really helpful here, just bold and bullets.
Lenny Rachitsky：沿着这些思路，我发现格式在这里非常有用，只是粗体和项目符号。
I know you have a pet peeve with too much formatting.
我知道您对太多的格式感到不满。
How much is too much formatting?
格式化多少算太多？
Wes Kao: I really hate excessive formatting.
高伟雄：我真的很讨厌过度格式化。
So, I've seen memos where 30% of the note was bolded.
所以，我见过一些备忘录，其中 30% 的注释是粗体的。
And that just negates the entire point of bolding because if everything is bolded then nothing is being highlighted, right?
这恰恰否定了粗体的全部意义，因为如果所有内容都加粗，那么就不会突出显示任何内容，对吧？
So I think using formatting in general more sparingly than you think you have to is probably a good rule of thumb.
因此，我认为一般来说，比您想象的更谨慎地使用格式可能是一个很好的经验法则。
I also dislike when people overuse bullets and sentence fragments, phrases in bullets when they should use complete sentences that actually show the connected tissue between ideas, that show the logical flow of what it is that you're saying.
我也不喜欢人们过度使用项目符号和句子片段、项目符号中的短语，而他们应该使用完整的句子，这些句子实际上显示了想法之间的联系组织，显示了你所说内容的逻辑流程。
Wes Kao: And it feels faster and more concise to put bullets and fragments, but a lot of times your reader on the other end of that is needing to decipher and interpret and guess what you actually meant.
Wes Kao：放置项目符号和片段感觉更快、更简洁，但很多时候你的读者在另一端需要破译、解释和猜测你真正的意思。
So it net, net takes longer.
所以就净了，净了需要更长的时间。
And I also think that it can be a little bit of a crutch, it can be a little bit lazy because you are telling yourself that you're being concise when really, if you had to turn your sentence fragment into a full sentence, a lot of times it actually is harder than you think because you realize that you actually didn't really know exactly what you meant.
我还认为这可能有点像拐杖，可能有点懒，因为你告诉自己你很简洁，但实际上，如果你必须把你的句子片段变成一个完整的句子，很多时候它实际上比你想象的更难，因为你意识到你实际上并不真正知道你的意思。
So as you're trying to turn it into a full sentence, you're actually needing to use brainpower.
所以当你试图把它变成一个完整的句子时，你实际上需要动用脑力。
Wes Kao: So that's I think a great litmus test of, "Was that idea fully thought out?" Because if it was, you should be able to really quickly turn it into a complete sentence.
Wes Kao：我认为这是一个很好的试金石，“这个想法是否经过深思熟虑？”因为如果是的话，你应该能够很快地将它变成一个完整的句子。
And many times, you actually aren't.
很多时候，你实际上不是。
So I see people like basically think, "Oh, I want to make this easier to read, more skimmable.
所以我看到人们基本上会想，“哦，我想让这篇文章更容易阅读，更容易浏览。
I'm just going to throw a bunch of formatting and bullets and turn everything into bullets." And it's not quite that easy of a solution.
我只是要抛出一堆格式和项目符号，然后将所有内容都变成项目符号。”这并不是那么容易的解决方案。
Lenny Rachitsky: This is very much along the lines of the whole Amazon six-page memo where Jeff Bezos just realized, "If you can't write it out as a long memo and explain yourself in prose, you don't actually know what you're saying." And it's a really good filter for helping people actually crystallize and know themselves, "Okay, I see.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：这与整个亚马逊六页备忘录的思路非常相似，杰夫·贝索斯刚刚意识到，“如果你不能把它写成一份长备忘录并用散文解释自己，那么你实际上不知道自己在说什么。”这是一个非常好的过滤器，可以帮助人们真正结晶并了解自己，“好吧，我明白了。
I don't actually know what I'm doing here." And I love this is a microcosm of that.
我实际上不知道我在这里做什么。”我喜欢这是一个缩影。
Can you just make a bullet point a real sentence versus a fragment of a sentence?
你能把一个要点变成一个真正的句子而不是一个句子的片段吗？
Lenny Rachitsky: I'm thinking about as a listener being like, "Okay, how do I actually get better at this?" So maybe let's take a tangent.
Lenny Rachitsky：作为一名听众，我在想，“好吧，我实际上如何在这方面做得更好？”所以也许让我们切线一下。
I know that you teach a whole course, you do all this stuff hands-on with people to help them actually build these skills.
我知道你教授一整门课程，你与人们一起动手做所有这些事情，以帮助他们真正培养这些技能。
For someone that hasn't taken the course or isn't taking it, what's a good way to start practicing these skills and know if what you're writing is getting better, is good.
对于尚未参加或没有参加该课程的人来说，开始练习这些技能并了解您所写的内容是否变得更好的好方法是好的。
Is it find a mentor, find someone that you think is a great writer and have them review stuff?
是找一位导师，找一个你认为是伟大作家的人并让他们评论东西吗？
Any tips there?
有什么提示吗？
Wes Kao: Yeah.
高伟雄：是的。
So I have a pretty first principles driven approach for this, which is to think about how long does it take me right now to get to the reaction I'm looking for from my recipient?
因此，我对此有一个相当首要的原则驱动方法，即考虑我现在需要多长时间才能得到我正在寻找的收件人的反应？
If it takes a bunch of back and forth and a bunch of friction, then that's my baseline.
如果需要大量的来回和摩擦，那么这就是我的基线。
And once you start practicing some of these communication skills, how does that speed up?
一旦你开始练习其中一些沟通技巧，速度会如何加快？
If you would have had seven different touch points of back and forth, does that shrink to two to three?
如果您有七个不同的来回接触点，那么这个数量会减少到两到三个吗？
Wes Kao: Not every point of friction is going to be avoidable, but a lot of it is if you get better at communicating.
Wes Kao：并不是所有的摩擦点都是可以避免的，但如果你善于沟通，很多摩擦都是可以避免的。
So I like watching for the reaction and how quickly and how enthusiastically I'm able to get that reaction.
所以我喜欢观察大家的反应，以及我能够多快、多热情地得到这种反应。
And for the things that are working, do more of that.
对于有效的事情，多做一些。
For things that are not working, adjust your execution because it might not be that the tactic doesn't work, it might be your execution of it wasn't great.
对于不起作用的事情，调整你的执行力，因为可能不是策略不起作用，而是你的执行力不够好。
And keep trying, basically.
基本上，继续尝试。
Lenny Rachitsky: So the advice here is just see how well you're writing/meeting/suggestion goes, how well it does.
Lenny Rachitsky：所以这里的建议就是看看你的写作/会议/建议进行得如何，效果如何。
And if it's not like there's the ideal immediately, "Yes, let's do it." And then there's the, "I don't really understand." There's the spectrum of response.
如果还没有立即实现理想，“是的，我们就这么做吧。”然后就是“我不太明白”。这是反应的范围。
And what I'm hearing is just pay attention to if the speed to getting what you want is increasing in general.
我听到的只是注意获得你想要的东西的速度是否总体上在增加。
Wes Kao: Yeah, yeah.
高伟雄：是啊是啊。
I don't think that there's any single shortcut on how to get better besides that.
除此之外，我认为没有任何捷径可以让你变得更好。
I do think that being fascinated by a topic and being excited about it makes it more likely that you're going to find it fun to try all these different things and try different ways to get through to people.
我确实认为，对一个话题着迷并对此感到兴奋，会让你更有可能发现尝试所有这些不同的事情并尝试不同的方式来与人们沟通是很有趣的。
So, I would approach it with a hypothesis-driven experimental mindset and almost like a game.
因此，我会以假设驱动的实验心态来处理它，就像玩游戏一样。
Like, "When I do this, how does that other person react?
就像，“当我这样做时，其他人有何反应？
If I frame it this way, do I get a different reaction?
如果我这样构建，我会得到不同的反应吗？
When I try this, am I able to cut through the noise more?"
当我尝试这样做时，我能更好地消除噪音吗？”
Wes Kao: Yeah.
高伟雄：是的。
So I really think it's about practicing.
所以我真的认为这就是练习。
And I will say that the way not to do it is to try to incorporate 30 different tactics at the same time and then beat yourself up when you don't remember to do them.
我想说的是，不这样做的方法是尝试同时采用 30 种不同的策略，然后当你不记得这样做时就责备自己。
It's really easy when you are learning a new field or function to get overwhelmed when you're learning a new skill.
当您学习新领域或新功能时，很容易在学习新技能时感到不知所措。
And the way to build a habit is usually not changing so many different things at once.
养成习惯的方法通常不是一次改变这么多不同的事情。
It's picking one thing that you want to try and keeping that top of mind, trying it in a bunch of different settings in different ways.
它是选择你想要尝试的一件事并牢记在心，以不同的方式在一堆不同的环境中尝试它。
And getting it better at that thing before moving on to the next thing.
在继续下一件事之前，先把那件事做得更好。
Wes Kao: So that's like a really common thing I see in my course is people feeling overwhelmed.
Wes Kao：所以我在课程中看到的一个非常常见的事情是人们感到不知所措。
And I always remind folks that, "You are building a new habit here.
我总是提醒人们，“你正在在这里养成一个新习惯。
And be patient with yourself, take it step by step."
对自己要有耐心，一步一步来。”
Lenny Rachitsky: There's a lot of stuff we're talking about here that a lot of people might be like, "This is so minor.
Lenny Rachitsky：我们在这里讨论了很多事情，很多人可能会说，“这太小了。
What?
什么？
I just bullet point sentences, be a little...
我只是要点句子，有点......
Tell them the why at the beginning."
一开始就告诉他们原因。”
Lenny Rachitsky: And I just want to share in my experience the biggest jump I made in my career was actually getting better at these very specific skills.
Lenny Rachitsky：我只想分享我的经验，我职业生涯中最大的飞跃实际上是在这些非常具体的技能上变得更好。
I had this manager, Vlad, who's been on the podcast and I talk about him regularly, who was such a stickler about communicating well and being very clear and concise and thinking and just spending more time on documents and emails, on strategy docs.
我有一位经理，弗拉德，他一直在播客上，我经常谈论他，他非常坚持良好的沟通，非常清晰、简洁和思考，只是花更多的时间在文档和电子邮件上，在战略文档上。
Just like, "No, this isn't ready.
就像，“不，这还没有准备好。
Spend more time, here's something that's not clear." And just doing that was such an accelerant for me.
花更多时间，有些事情还不清楚。”这样做对我来说就是一种促进剂。
Lenny Rachitsky: And it's all these little things.
Lenny Rachitsky：都是这些小事。
That's what's interesting about it.
这就是它的有趣之处。
It's like everything seems really minor but it all adds up to a lot of impact because to your point, people see it, "Okay, cool, I get it, let's go." Versus like, "I don't like this idea." And then it's like it all falls apart.
好像一切看起来都很小，但所有这些加起来都会产生很大的影响，因为就你的观点而言，人们会看到它，“好吧，酷，我明白了，我们走吧。”相反，“我不喜欢这个主意。”然后就好像一切都崩溃了。
So I guess any reactions to that?
所以我想对此有什么反应吗？
Wes Kao: Yeah.
高伟雄：是的。
All these little things compound and make a big difference.
所有这些小事情复合起来就会产生很大的影响。
I often hear people think, "Well, this individual instance, this individual email, the Slack message is not worth spending a couple more minutes on.
我经常听到人们想，“好吧，这个单独的实例，这个单独的电子邮件，Slack 消息不值得多花几分钟。
It's just an email or it's just a Slack message." The problem with that line of thinking is that no one instance of something is ever going to feel important enough to spend a little bit more time on that.
这只是一封电子邮件，或者只是一条 Slack 消息。”这种思维方式的问题在于，没有任何一个事物实例会感到足够重要，以至于需要在其上多花一点时间。
And then, but when you zoom out, that's like, "Well that's all your work then.
然后，当你缩小时，就像是，“好吧，这就是你的全部工作了。
This is literally everything you've touched.
这实际上就是你所接触过的一切。
This is all your work output then." because any piece of that process you thought wasn't worth spending time on and now this is just the quality of your work and it's not as good as it could be.
这就是你所有的工作输出。”因为你认为这个过程中的任何部分都不值得花时间，而现在这只是你的工作质量，而且还没有达到应有的水平。
Wes Kao: So yes, these might seem minor but A, it compounds.
Wes Kao：是的，这些可能看起来很小，但它是复杂的。
And also B, all the "big things," everyone else is already doing.
还有B，所有“大事”，其他人都已经在做了。
So, there's not a lot of alpha in that.
所以，其中并没有太多的阿尔法。
Whereas if you are paying attention to skills that people think are boring or too basic and realizing that's a lever that you can pull, that someone else thought, "Oh, we're hitting diminishing returns on that.
然而，如果你关注人们认为无聊或太基础的技能，并意识到这是一个你可以拉动的杠杆，那么其他人就会想，“哦，我们在这方面的回报正在递减。
I'm not going to spend more time on that." But you realize that there's actually more juice left to squeeze there and you decide to squeeze that juice.
我不会花更多的时间在这上面。”但是你意识到实际上还有更多的果汁需要榨，你决定榨这些果汁。
Well, now, you have extra juice that the other person doesn't have.
好吧，现在，你拥有了别人没有的额外果汁。
Wes Kao: So yeah, in my experience I find that people claim the point of diminishing returns way too early.
Wes Kao：是的，根据我的经验，我发现人们过早地提出收益递减的观点。
And this isn't just for communication, this is for strategies, tactics, et cetera.
这不仅仅是为了沟通，也是为了战略、战术等等。
They'll try something once, a mediocre attempt and be like, "This channel doesn't work.
他们会尝试一次，一次平庸的尝试，然后会说，“这个渠道不起作用。
This tactic doesn't work." It's like, "Really?
这种策略行不通。” 就像是，“真的吗？
Because it's working for a lot of other people who are getting really creative with it."
因为它对很多其他真正发挥创意的人来说都有效。”
Wes Kao: I'm not saying that everything has to work for you but for you to claim, "This thing just doesn't work," feels a little bit intellectually dishonest.
Wes Kao：我并不是说一切都必须对你有用，但如果你声称“这东西不起作用”，感觉有点理智上的不诚实。
It's more likely that your skill level, your creativity, your execution ability was not good enough.
更有可能的是你的技能水平、你的创造力、你的执行能力还不够好。
And that's fine.
那很好。
Let's admit that to ourselves because if we admit that, then we can do the hard work of getting better at those things.
让我们承认这一点，因为如果我们承认这一点，那么我们就可以努力在这些事情上做得更好。
Lenny Rachitsky: It feels like if you really boil this down, all the advice comes down to just spend a little more time on all these things you're putting out.
Lenny Rachitsky：感觉如果你真的把这件事归结起来，所有的建议都归结为在你要发布的所有这些东西上多花一点时间。
Wes Kao: I like thinking about it as a little bit more upfront investment.
Wes Kao：我喜欢将其视为更多的前期投资。
And it is an investment.
这是一项投资。
It's not just time.
这不仅仅是时间。
It's an investment because yes, it takes a little bit longer to make a Slack message a little bit better, but net, net if you save a bunch of questions and back and forth and people asking you things that you don't think they should be asking, then by investing a little bit of upfront effort, you've prevented all that from happening.
这是一项投资，因为是的，要让 Slack 的消息变得更好一点，需要更长的时间，但是，如果你节省了一堆来来回回的问题，人们问你一些你认为他们不应该问的问题，那么通过投入一点前期的努力，你就可以阻止这一切的发生。
So yeah, it is a little bit more time in the moment but reaps a lot of benefits down the line.
所以，是的，虽然现在的时间有点多，但以后会带来很多好处。
Lenny Rachitsky: Today's episode is brought to you by Coda.
Lenny Rachitsky：今天的节目由 Coda 为您带来。
I personally use Coda every single day to manage my podcast and also to manage my community.
我个人每天都使用 Coda 来管理我的播客和社区。
It's where I put the questions that I plan to ask every guest that's coming on the podcast.
我在这里提出了我计划向播客中的每位嘉宾提出的问题。
It's where I put my community resources, it's how I manage my workflows.
这是我放置社区资源的地方，也是我管理工作流程的方式。
Here's how Coda can help you.
以下是 Coda 如何帮助您。
Imagine starting a project at work and your vision is clear.
想象一下在工作中开始一个项目，你的愿景是清晰的。
You know exactly who's doing what and where to find the data that you need to do your part.
您确切地知道谁在做什么以及在哪里可以找到完成您的工作所需的数据。
In fact, you don't have to waste time searching for anything because everything your team needs from project trackers and OKRs to documents and spreadsheets lives in one tab all in Coda.
事实上，您不必浪费时间搜索任何内容，因为您的团队所需的一切（从项目跟踪器和 OKR 到文档和电子表格）都位于 Coda 的一个选项卡中。
With Coda's collaborative all-in-one workspace, you get the flexibility of docs, the structure of spreadsheets, the power of applications, and the intelligence of AI all in one easy to organize tab.
借助 Coda 的协作式一体化工作区，您可以在一个易于组织的选项卡中获得文档的灵活性、电子表格的结构、应用程序的强大功能以及 AI 的智能。
Like I mentioned earlier, I use Coda every single day.
正如我之前提到的，我每天都使用 Coda。
And more than 50,000 teams trust Coda to keep them more aligned and focused.
超过 50,000 个团队相信 Coda 可以让他们更加协调和专注。
If you're a startup team looking to increase alignment and agility, Coda can help you move from planning to execution in record time.
如果您是一个希望提高一致性和敏捷性的初创团队，Coda 可以帮助您在创纪录的时间内从计划转向执行。
To try it for yourself, go to coda.io/lenny today and get six months free of the team plan for startups.
要亲自尝试，请立即访问 coda.io/lenny，并获得六个月免费的初创公司团队计划。
That's C-O-D-A.I-O/lenny to get started for free and get six months of the team plan, coda.io/lenny.
这是 C-O-D-A.I-O/lenny，免费开始并获得六个月的团队计划，coda.io/lenny。
Lenny Rachitsky: You mentioned Slack.
Lenny Rachitsky：你提到了 Slack。
I have a great quote also about you that I didn't read that I'm just going to read right now from someone that worked with you.
我还有一句关于你的精彩引言，我没有读过，但我现在只想从与你共事的人那里读到。
She said she searched the Slack channel at the company you worked at for old posts from Wes for inspiration for what to ask you.
她说她在你工作的公司的 Slack 频道上搜索了 Wes 的旧帖子，寻找灵感来问你什么。
And she said you had zero half-baked thoughts, 100% complete sentences, perfect punctuation, clear takeaways at the top of every message.
她说，你的半生不熟的想法为零，句子百分百完整，标点符号完美，每条消息的顶部都有清晰的要点。
It's the kind of thing you don't notice in isolation, but once you see everyone else's messages in a remote-first company, it's a stark contrast.
这种事情你在孤立的情况下不会注意到，但是一旦你在一家远程优先的公司中看到其他人的消息，就会发现这是一个鲜明的对比。
Wes Kao: Yeah, thank you.
高伟雄：是的，谢谢。
I will also say that as someone who tries to walk the talk, I feel like I get a pretty good response rate pretty quickly for the things that I ask for, for the recommendations I'm making.
我还要说的是，作为一个努力言出必行的人，我觉得我对我所要求的事情和我提出的建议很快就得到了相当好的回应率。
It's not instant, it's not 100%, but over time I've realized that improving my communication has led to people receiving my ideas better.
这不是即时的，也不是 100%，但随着时间的推移，我意识到改善我的沟通可以让人们更好地接受我的想法。
Ideas that used to be locked in my head that I would get frustrated that no one else understood.
那些想法曾经被锁在我的脑海里，如果没有人理解，我会感到沮丧。
People were now understanding and that feels really good.
人们现在开始理解了，这感觉真的很好。
That's very, very exciting and it made me want to do it more and pay more attention to that.
这非常非常令人兴奋，它让我想做更多并更加关注这一点。
So that's going back to what I said earlier about watching for what's working.
这又回到了我之前所说的关于观察有效措施的内容。
There's momentum is really encouraging.
这种势头确实令人鼓舞。
Lenny Rachitsky: And I totally feel that.
Lenny Rachitsky：我完全有这种感觉。
If you start getting the things you want, that feels great.
如果你开始得到你想要的东西，那感觉棒极了。
I'd be like, "Okay, cool."
我会说，“好吧，酷。”
Lenny Rachitsky: "Let's do more of that." Yeah, and again, it's like very minor things.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：“让我们做更多这样的事情。”是的，再说一次，这就像非常小的事情。
It's like a couple more minutes on the Slack message, a couple more minutes on email.
就像在 Slack 消息上多花几分钟，在电子邮件上多花几分钟一样。
Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, which everyone can do.
Lenny Rachitsky：是的，每个人都可以做到。
There's no magic here, it's just spend a little more time and use some of these tactics that we're talking about.
这里没有什么魔法，只是多花一点时间并使用我们正在讨论的一些策略。
Speaking of that, let me talk about another tactic.
说到这里，我再说说另外一个战术。
Apparently you have some really good advice on finding the right level of confidence in what you're saying.
显然，你有一些非常好的建议，可以帮助你对自己所说的话找到适当的信心。
There's always this question of, "I come to this leader.
总是有这样的问题：“我来找这位领导者。
How confident should I be about, 'This is the answer,' versus, 'Here's a bunch of ideas'?" What do you think?
我应该对‘这就是答案’而不是‘这里有很多想法’有多大的信心？”你怎么认为？
What's your advice there?
你有什么建议？
Wes Kao: I find that people tend to naturally be on the spectrum a little bit too confident as a baseline or not confident enough.
Wes Kao：我发现人们自然而然地倾向于在基线上过于自信或不够自信。
So people who are too confident might state hypotheses as if they are fact.
因此，过于自信的人可能会提出假设，就好像它们是事实一样。
So that really bothers me.
所以这真的很困扰我。
That's another one of my pet peeves, where if you say, "This is X," or, "This will X," that is different than saying, "This could X," or, "This might X," or, "This will increase the likelihood of X."
这是我的另一个烦恼，如果你说“这是 X”或“这将是 X”，这与说“这可能是 X”或“这可能是 X”或“这将增加 X 的可能性”是不同的。
Wes Kao: So I'm a big proponent of speaking accurately.
Wes Kao：所以我非常支持准确说话。
You can avoid a lot of problems if you speak accurately about your level of conviction and about the actual amount of evidence that you have for something.
如果您准确地表达您的信念程度以及您拥有的某件事的实际证据数量，您可以避免很多问题。
It's okay for something to be an initial hunch.
最初的预感是可以接受的。
Say, "It's an initial hunch." Don't act like this is something that you are super sure about.
说：“这是最初的预感。”不要表现得好像这是你非常确定的事情。
You've proven out that this is absolutely this way because the rest of your team is listening to you at face value.
你已经证明这绝对是这样，因为你团队的其他成员都在认真倾听你的意见。
And y'all might spend real headcount and dollars pursuing something that you have advocated for in a way where you overreached with your level of confidence.
你们可能会花费真正的人员和金钱来追求您所倡导的某件事，但您的信心水平却超出了预期。
Wes Kao: So, that's for people who are overconfident.
Wes Kao：所以，这是针对过度自信的人的。
It's equally a problem if you're under-confident.
如果你缺乏自信，这同样是一个问题。
So I have some clients who their CEO asked them to share some recommendations with another team because they've run something before and so they share all this amazing information and at the end they're like, "Oh, but you can ignore everything I just said.
所以我有一些客户，他们的首席执行官要求他们与另一个团队分享一些建议，因为他们以前运行过一些东西，所以他们分享了所有这些令人惊奇的信息，最后他们会说，“哦，但是你可以忽略我刚才说的一切。
Obviously, make your own decision.
显然，你自己做出决定。
Do what you think is best.
做你认为最好的事。
And if you want to just ignore everything, that's totally cool too." And it's like you just didn't have to say that.
如果你想忽略一切，那也很酷。”就好像你不必这么说。
You could say, "Make your own decision, take all this into account," but you don't have to diminish to that degree.
你可以说，“你自己做决定，考虑到所有这些”，但你不必削弱到那种程度。
Wes Kao: And so again, speaking accurately, if you have really strong reasons to recommend something to the cross-functional team, it's almost irresponsible to act like you are not really sure and it's just this random idea, "Hey, try it if you want to." We might lose a lot of money and time if we don't take this idea, right?
Wes Kao：所以，准确地说，如果你有非常充分的理由向跨职能团队推荐某些东西，那么表现得好像你不太确定，这几乎是不负责任的，这只是一个随机的想法，“嘿，如果你想尝试一下。”如果我们不接受这个想法，我们可能会损失很多金钱和时间，对吗？
So again, speaking accurately is so, so important.
再说一遍，准确地说是非常非常重要的。
Lenny Rachitsky: Is a simple way to think about then the right balance is have a point of view, have a recommendation, present accurate facts, and be clear when you are not?
Lenny Rachitsky：有一个简单的思考方式，那么正确的平衡就是有观点、有建议、呈现准确的事实，以及在不明确时保持清晰？
"It's not actually 100% true, but here's a hunch I have, or here's a theory we have."
“这实际上并不是100%正确，但这是我的预感，或者这是我们的理论。”
Wes Kao: Yeah, I think sharing a point of view, sharing a recommendation, and then backing it up with evidence, with logic, with first principles, with examples, with data, if you have it.
Wes Kao：是的，我认为分享一个观点，分享一个建议，然后用证据、逻辑、第一原则、例子、数据（如果有的话）来支持它。
Not every situation you're going to have data for, especially if you're building something new.
并非所有情况都需要数据，特别是当您正在构建新东西时。
So this is where first principles comes in.
这就是首要原则的用武之地。
Even explaining how you got to where you got to and why you think this is going to work, that all gives your team, your manager, something to push back on, to poke holes on or to align on and say, "Yeah, I agree here, but I disagree on this part."
甚至解释你是如何到达目的地以及为什么你认为这会起作用，这一切都给你的团队、你的经理提供了一些可以反驳的东西，可以找出漏洞或保持一致，并说：“是的，我同意这一点，但我不同意这一部分。”
Wes Kao: So you can talk about ideas with a lot more specificity when you share your thought process.
Wes Kao：所以当你分享你的思维过程时，你可以更具体地谈论想法。
And you can frame it all kicking off saying, "My initial thinking is," or, "Based on what we know, my hunch is, blank." So speaking accurately and then still bringing up those facts so that we can all make as informed of a decision as we can make given what we know.
你可以一开始就说：“我最初的想法是”，或者“根据我们所知，我的预感是，空白。”因此，准确地说出这些事实，然后仍然提出这些事实，以便我们都能根据我们所知道的情况做出尽可能明智的决定。
Lenny Rachitsky: Advice I got that really helped here for me was to try not to be biased with how you frame everything.
Lenny Rachitsky：我得到的建议对我来说真正有帮助的是尽量不要对你如何构建一切产生偏见。
You have your suggestion for how to do something.
您对如何做某事有自己的建议。
It's easy to just bias all of the data to point in that direction.
很容易将所有数据都指向那个方向。
And if people notice that, they're like, "Oh, okay.
如果人们注意到这一点，他们就会说：“哦，好吧。
Well, I can't really trust this because I see you're just like, you clearly have an agenda." So it's a little bit like having an agenda and a POV, but be clear about what is actually true.
好吧，我真的不能相信这一点，因为我看到你就像，你显然有一个议程。”所以这有点像制定议程和观点，但要清楚什么是真实的。
Be accurate.
准确一点。
Wes Kao: Yeah.
高伟雄：是的。
I think anytime people have to discount what you're saying because you are biased in this way is not great.
我认为任何时候人们都必须对你所说的话打折扣，因为你以这种方式存在偏见并不好。
Lenny Rachitsky: Is there an example by any chance that highlights what you're describing here?
Lenny Rachitsky：有没有一个例子可以强调您在这里所描述的内容？
Wes Kao: Yeah, so in my course I talk about not being a single-minded martyr.
Wes Kao：是的，所以在我的课程中我谈到不要成为一个一心一意的烈士。
So single-minded martyr is someone who very much has an agenda, who wants the recommendation to go through and is presenting a bunch of evidence, supporting that direction.
因此，一心一意的烈士是一个非常有议程的人，他希望建议得到通过，并提供大量证据来支持该方向。
And then gets really frustrated when other people are not seeing it or are skeptical.
当其他人没有看到它或持怀疑态度时，就会感到非常沮丧。
And so one of my clients was a single-minded martyr in a recommendation she was making.
因此，我的一位客户在她提出的建议中是一位一心一意的烈士。
So she was on the growth acquisition side of her company.
所以她是公司的增长收购方。
And was having trouble with cross-functional team members lending headcount to her project.
并且在跨职能团队成员为她的项目提供人员方面遇到了麻烦。
And so everyone would say like, " Oh, yes, we believe in this, this is important," but wouldn't want to actually give her half of their engineer for two weeks.
所以每个人都会说，“哦，是的，我们相信这一点，这很重要”，但实际上并不想在两周内给她一半的工程师。
Wes Kao: And we were talking about it and as we were talking, she revealed that the CEO had at the beginning of the year said that the company-wide goal is retention that year.
Wes Kao：我们正在谈论这个问题，在我们谈论的时候，她透露首席执行官在年初曾表示，全公司的目标是当年留住员工。
That their biggest challenges and areas of opportunity were in retention, not necessarily in growth.
他们最大的挑战和机遇在于保留，而不一定是增长。
And once she zoomed out and realized this, she was able to put her recommendation in context.
一旦她缩小范围并意识到这一点，她就能够将她的建议放在上下文中。
And realized that it's not just-
并意识到这不仅仅是——
Wes Kao: ...
高韦斯：...
recommendation in context.
上下文中的建议。
And realize that it's not just I'm the only one who cares about this company.
并意识到不仅仅是我一个人关心这家公司。
Everyone is a hypocrite.
每个人都是伪君子。
They say they believe this, but don't actually want to work on it.
他们说他们相信这一点，但实际上并不想为此努力。
Before that was kind of her narrative, but once she zoomed out and realized she was being a single , she could better fit her proposal in the context of what else was happening in the organization.
在此之前，这是她的叙述，但一旦她缩小范围并意识到自己是单身，她就可以更好地将她的提议与组织中发生的其他事情结合起来。
I think actually this is a really big difference between more junior people versus more senior people.
我认为实际上这是初级人员与高级人员之间的巨大差异。
More junior people are like, "I need to win.
更多的初级员工会说：“我需要赢。
I need to get a yes for this proposal and I'm going to keep advocating for it until I get a yes." Whereas really sometimes the best decision for the company is not right now.
我需要对这个提议获得批准，我将继续倡导它，直到获得批准。”但实际上有时对公司来说最好的决定并不是现在。
This doesn't actually fit our priorities right now, right?
这实际上不符合我们现在的优先事项，对吗？
Wes Kao: Or maybe yes, but let's right size the level of investment.
Wes Kao：也许是的，但让我们调整投资水平。
So it might look like half whatever the size of what that recommendation actually was, and having the maturity to realize that, to put your idea into context is huge.
因此，无论该建议的实际大小如何，它看起来可能都只是一半，并且成熟地认识到这一点，将您的想法付诸实践是巨大的。
That took me a really long time to learn and I think that goes under the umbrella of always do what's best for the company, not necessarily what's best for me, my career, my team, my wins.
这花了我很长时间来学习，我认为这是在永远做对公司最好的事情的保护伞下，而不一定是对我、我的职业、我的团队、我的胜利最好的事情。
If you prioritize what's best for the company, that helps you have a more right-sized way of still advocating for your ideas, but doing it with a bit more equanimity.
如果你优先考虑对公司最有利的事情，这可以帮助你以更合适的方式来倡导你的想法，但要更加平静。
Lenny Rachitsky: And also just connecting to what the company is.
Lenny Rachitsky：而且也只是与公司的情况相关。
Just this idea of if the thing you're pitching is not aligned with what is important to the company right now, it's unlikely to be prioritized.
只是这个想法是，如果你所推销的东西与目前对公司重要的东西不一致，它就不太可能被优先考虑。
It makes sense.
这是有道理的。
This is why leaders choose, here's what matters most.
这就是领导者选择的原因，这才是最重要的。
We got to do the things that are going to help us drive this thing right now, like retention or revenue.
我们现在必须做一些能够帮助我们推动这件事的事情，比如保留或收入。
And so that's just, I think, a sub tactic there is just whenever you're pitching something, connect that to the goal of the person you're pitching to so that they're like, "Oh, I see how this is going to help me.
所以，我认为，这只是一个子策略，每当你推销某样东西时，将其与你推销的人的目标联系起来，这样他们就会说，“哦，我明白这对我有什么帮助。
That's great.
太好了。
Let's do it.
让我们开始吧。
Great advice."
很好的建议。”
Lenny Rachitsky: And I think this is something a lot of people run into.
Lenny Rachitsky：我认为这是很多人都会遇到的问题。
It's just, "Why aren't they listening to me?
只是，“他们为什么不听我的？
Why don't they want...
他们为什么不想要...
That's such a good idea.
这是个好主意。
They hate me." It's something, "Oh, I bet they hate me.
他们恨我。”这就像，“哦，我打赌他们恨我。
They don't trust me." When it's just like, okay, this isn't a priority right now.
他们不信任我。”当它就像，好吧，这不是现在的优先事项。
Let's come back to it another time.
让我们下次再回来讨论这个问题。
Okay.
好的。
I'm going to get to a couple more tactics and then I'm going to shift directions to talk about managers and being manager.
我将讨论更多策略，然后我将转移方向来谈论经理和成为经理。
You have an awesome framework called MOO.
你有一个很棒的框架，叫做 MOO。
What is MOO?
什么是MOO？
What does it stand for and what is it all about?
它代表什么以及它到底是关于什么的？
Wes Kao: MOO stands for Most Obvious Objection.
Wes Kao：MOO 代表最明显的反对。
M-O-O.
M-O-O。
And the thought there is that a lot of times we're surprised by the questions that we get, especially in meetings where we feel blindsided, that was unexpected, and then we're on our back foot.
人们认为，很多时候我们对收到的问题感到惊讶，尤其是在会议上，我们感到措手不及，这是出乎意料的，然后我们就陷入了困境。
When really, if you thought for even two minutes about what are obvious objections that I'm likely to get when I share this, you often immediately come up with what some of those things are.
事实上，如果你花两分钟思考一下当我分享这个内容时我可能会遇到哪些明显的反对意见，你通常会立即想到其中一些东西是什么。
So are you going to be able to anticipate every single objection?
那么你能预见到每一个反对意见吗？
No. But can you anticipate the obvious ones?
不。但是你能预见到明显的问题吗？
Absolutely.
绝对地。
And so this is where knowing your own argument in and out, including counterarguments becomes so important.
因此，这就是了解自己的论点（包括反论点）变得如此重要的地方。
So knowing your counterarguments as well as you know the arguments for doing the thing.
因此，了解你的反驳意见以及你知道做这件事的理由。
When you do that, when you have prepared in that way, you're less likely to feel caught off guard.
当你这样做时，当你以这种方式做好准备时，你就不太可能感到措手不及。
Lenny Rachitsky: When you hear you talk about this, it's like, obviously I shouldn't do this, but very few people actually do this, actually spend a couple minutes, " Okay, here's what I'm going to pitch."
Lenny Rachitsky：当你听到你谈论这个时，就像，显然我不应该这样做，但很少有人真正这样做，实际上花了几分钟，“好吧，这就是我要推销的内容。”
Wes Kao: Even a couple seconds, really.
Wes Kao：甚至几秒钟，真的。
Really, even a couple seconds, your brain will think of something.
真的，即使是几秒钟，你的大脑也会想到一些事情。
Lenny Rachitsky: Is there a story or an example of this that you share that highlights this idea of the power of MOO?
Lenny Rachitsky：您分享的故事或例子是否强调了 MOO 的力量？
Wes Kao: I use MOO multiple times a day, every day, every single day.
Wes Kao：我每天多次使用 MOO，每一天，每一天。
Literally whatever I'm about to say I think how might someone disagree with this or what might an objection be?
从字面上看，无论我要说什么，我想有人会不同意这一点，或者反对意见可能是什么？
So whatever it is I'm writing, saying, it's a really good mental filter because it encourages you to think a couple steps ahead in kind of a structured way, right?
所以无论我写的是什么，这都是一个非常好的心理过滤器，因为它鼓励你以一种结构化的方式提前思考几步，对吗？
If I'm about to say this, the person may then say this to me.
如果我要这么说，那个人可能也会对我这么说。
Well, if I take that into account, I can volunteer that information upfront or I can frame it in a way where they're less likely to think that that's an issue.
好吧，如果我考虑到这一点，我可以预先自愿提供这些信息，或者我可以以一种他们不太可能认为这是一个问题的方式来构建它。
Wes Kao: And so it's muscle memory for me at this point, and this might be something we include at the end is something to start with.
Wes Kao：所以现在对我来说这是肌肉记忆，这可能是我们在最后包含的内容，也是我们开始的内容。
But putting MOO on a post-it, Most Obvious Objection, what is someone likely to object about?
但是把 MOO 贴在便利贴上，即最明显的反对意见，人们可能会反对什么？
And then just keeping that top of mind.
然后牢记这一点。
It's a great way to train yourself to empathize with your audience and with your recipient.
这是训练自己同情听众和接受者的好方法。
We all say that and we all know we should do it, but for me this is a really tactical concrete way to do it.
我们都这么说，我们都知道我们应该这样做，但对我来说，这是一种非常具体的战术方法。
Lenny Rachitsky: I think what's great about a lot of the tactics you're sharing is not only is it going to help you communicate it better, but it helps you actually think and crystallize it better for yourself because you may realize, oh, that's a really good objection.
Lenny Rachitsky：我认为你分享的许多策略的好处不仅在于它可以帮助你更好地沟通，而且可以帮助你更好地为自己思考和具体化，因为你可能会意识到，哦，这是一个非常好的反对意见。
Like, oh, the objection's probably going to be this.
就像，哦，反对意见可能是这样的。
Will it drive enough impact for the business?
它会给企业带来足够的影响吗？
Oh, that's a great point.
哦，这是一个很好的观点。
Maybe I should not pitch this right now.
也许我现在不应该提出这个。
Wes Kao: Yeah.
高伟雄：是的。
It definitely helps shape your own thinking.
它绝对有助于塑造你自己的思维。
I think communication and thinking are so much more interrelated than we think.
我认为沟通和思考的相互关系比我们想象的要紧密得多。
I think people think there's a thinking as phase one and then communicating the thinking, and the reality is a lot more intertwined.
我认为人们认为第一阶段有一个想法，然后交流这个想法，而现实是更加交织在一起的。
And I loved your example there that thinking ahead to what might be the most obvious objection actually then prompts you to realize that maybe there was a gap in what you were planning to present and then you now have an opportunity to strengthen that pitch before you say it out loud.
我喜欢你的例子，提前思考什么可能是最明显的反对意见，实际上会促使你意识到你计划展示的内容可能存在差距，然后你现在有机会在大声说出来之前加强这一立场。
Lenny Rachitsky: There's a quote I have highlighted on this podcast a number of times that I love that is exactly along these lines by Joan Didion.
Lenny Rachitsky：我在这个播客中多次强调了我喜欢的一句话，这句话正是 Joan Didion 所说的。
"I don't know what I think until I write it down." I know exactly that feeling.
“在我把它写下来之前，我不知道自己在想什么。”我很清楚那种感觉。
Okay.
好的。
So there's a couple more things that people have shared that you are amazing at helping them get better at.
人们还分享了一些你在帮助他们做得更好方面表现出色的事情。
One is just keeping your cool and staying calm during very high stakes, real-time conversations when things maybe aren't going your way or if you disagree with someone, any advice on that, it feels like you're really good at this.
一是在风险很大的实时对话中保持冷静，当事情可能不按你的意愿进行时，或者如果你不同意某人的意见，对此有任何建议，感觉你真的很擅长这一点。
Wes Kao: I think one thing that tends to throw people off is putting a lot of pressure on themselves to get the exact right answer.
Wes Kao：我认为容易让人失望的一件事就是给自己施加很大的压力，要求自己得到准确的正确答案。
So if they are asked a question and they don't know the answer, a lot of people will then kind of freak out.
因此，如果他们被问到一个问题而他们不知道答案，很多人都会感到害怕。
And I was taught early in my career that if you don't know the answer, you should say, "Let me look into it, I'll get back to you." So that's a fine approach.
在我职业生涯的早期，我就被告知，如果你不知道答案，你应该说：“让我调查一下，我会回复你。”所以这是一个很好的方法。
It's definitely better than making something up, right?
这肯定比编造一些东西要好，对吧？
So definitely don't make something up.
所以绝对不要编造什么。
But if you are more experienced and have some confidence in your subject matter area, just saying I'll get back to you, is sometimes a missed opportunity.
但是，如果您更有经验并且对您的主题领域有一定的信心，只是说我会回复您，有时会错失机会。
You can ask for a bit more information to be able to continue the conversation in that moment.
您可以要求提供更多信息，以便能够在那一刻继续对话。
So let's say that your exec says what percentage of users came from mobile last month and you don't have that number off the top of your head.
假设您的主管说上个月来自移动设备的用户百分比是多少，而您并没有想到这个数字。
Wes Kao: So person A says, "Let me look into it and I'll get back to you." Person B might say, "I don't have that number off the top of my head, but in the last quarter the number has been 60 to 70% and it's grown in the past year, so mobile is now a bigger part of our business, et cetera.
Wes Kao：所以 A 说：“让我调查一下，然后给你回复。” B 可能会说：“我脑子里没有这个数字，但上个季度这个数字达到了 60% 到 70%，并且在过去一年中有所增长，因此移动现在已成为我们业务的重要组成部分，等等。
Are you wondering if we are investing in mobile appropriately or where's that commission coming from, basically?
您是否想知道我们在移动领域的投资是否适当，或者佣金从何而来？
Right?
对吗？
And so being able to answer a similar question in the direction you think the person is asking about and then validating why they're asking that question allows you to still continue that conversation in the moment.
因此，能够按照您认为此人所问的方向回答类似的问题，然后验证他们为什么问这个问题，可以让您仍然继续当前的对话。
I call it the question behind the question, sometimes you get a question, but underneath there's a deeper underlying concern.
我称之为问题背后的问题，有时你会得到一个问题，但在下面有一个更深层次的潜在担忧。
Wes Kao: And many times people don't even know that it's there, right?
Wes Kao：很多时候人们甚至不知道它的存在，对吗？
Subconscious.
潜意识。
So it's not nefarious, they're not withholding anything from you.
所以这并不邪恶，他们不会向你隐瞒任何事情。
But when you are explaining something and you're kind of getting multiple questions on the same thing, it's a good sign that there might be a deeper question behind the question and it's our responsibility to figure out what might that be.
但是，当你在解释某件事时，你对同一件事提出了多个问题，这是一个好兆头，表明问题背后可能存在更深层次的问题，而我们有责任弄清楚这可能是什么。
And so probing, asking for a bit more information, answering in that general direction and then validating these are all techniques you can use when you are in the moment without feeling like, oh, I must have every single thing prepared and the moment that I'm caught off guard, everything goes to shit.
因此，探索，询问更多信息，在大方向上回答，然后验证这些都是你可以在当下使用的技巧，而不会感觉，哦，我必须准备好每件事，而当我措手不及时，一切都会变得糟糕。
Lenny Rachitsky: Another tactic along these lines that's very similar to what you're describing, but I'll share that I learned that was really helpful is just if you're not sure what to say, basically just reflecting back their question and just being like, let me just make sure I understand what you're looking for.
Lenny Rachitsky：另一种策略与你所描述的非常相似，但我会分享，我了解到这确实很有帮助，就是如果你不确定该说什么，基本上只是反映他们的问题，然后就像，让我确保我理解你在寻找什么。
You want to understand monthly retention for, and then maybe clarify.
您想了解每月保留率，然后也许可以澄清。
And that one gives you time to think about it as you're talking.
这给了你在谈话时思考的时间。
Two, it helps the person recognize, "Oh, he hears me.
第二，它可以帮助人们认识到，“哦，他听到了我的声音。
Great.
伟大的。
Okay, this is good.
好的，这很好。
He's thinking about this." And then at the end of that you could be like, "Okay.
他正在考虑这个。”最后你可能会说，“好吧。
I don't actually have that specific number.
我实际上没有那个具体号码。
Let me think about it." Or, "I have the quarterly number.
让我考虑一下。”或者，“我有季度数据。
Okay.
好的。
That's what I know." So there's an interim step almost that I'll add into your piece of advice of just reflect back their question, just better understand what they're looking for.
这就是我所知道的。”因此，我将在你的建议中添加一个临时步骤，即反映他们的问题，更好地了解他们在寻找什么。
Wes Kao: Yeah, I love that.
Wes Kao：是的，我喜欢这个。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
Okay, let's go back to what I said we do.
好吧，让我们回到我说的我们要做的事情。
Let's pick one tactic that you think people should try first, maybe one or two.
让我们选择一个您认为人们应该首先尝试的策略，也许是一两个。
So let me read the ones we've gone through and then see what you think would be a good first step.
让我读一下我们已经经历过的那些，然后看看你认为什么是好的第一步。
So one is starting with sales, before getting to logistics and giving people the why signposting using specific words to help people guide the doc and not get overwhelmed.
因此，我们首先从销售开始，然后再进行物流，并使用特定的词语向人们提供为什么路标，以帮助人们指导文档而不是不知所措。
Finding the right level of confidence, having a POV, that sort of thing.
找到适当的自信，拥有视角，诸如此类的事情。
Getting better, being concise, MOO, not overusing formatting, something else you shared.
变得更好，简洁，MOO，不要过度使用格式，你分享的其他东西。
And then this idea of when you don't know the answer, not saying I'll get back to you as the default, maybe giving them a different answer, maybe asking them more questions.
然后，当你不知道答案时，不要默认说我会回复你，也许会给他们一个不同的答案，也许会问他们更多问题。
Across those, which do you think someone should try to like, "Okay.
在这些中，你认为有人应该尝试喜欢哪些，“好吧。
Let me start here."
让我从这里开始吧。”
Wes Kao: I would start with Most Obvious Objection and also framing your conversation up front.
Wes Kao：我会从最明显的反对开始，并预先构建你们的谈话。
And that kind of relates to using signposting words if needed to help you frame that conversation.
如果需要的话，这与使用路标词来帮助你构建对话有关。
Lenny Rachitsky: Sweet.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太好了。
That's such an easy one to remember.
这是一件很容易记住的事。
Just MOO.
只是哞哞。
Okay.
好的。
So stick a post it somewhere when you're about to share something in Slack and ask someone for something, present in a meeting, send a strategy, and just think about for a few seconds what might be the most obvious objection to what I'm trying to ask them to do.
因此，当您要在 Slack 中分享某些内容、向某人索要某些内容、出席会议、发送策略时，请将其贴在某处，然后花几秒钟思考一下，对于我试图要求他们做的事情，最明显的反对意见可能是什么。
Great.
伟大的。
Okay.
好的。
So let's talk about management.
那么我们来谈谈管理。
And there's kind of two sides to it.
它有两个方面。
Being a manager and being a person reporting to a manager, you have a bunch of really good advice here.
作为一名经理和一个向经理报告的人，你在这里有很多非常好的建议。
One is there around managing up.
一是向上管理。
One of my most popular posts in the early days was advice for managing up and just how important it is.
我早期最受欢迎的帖子之一是关于向上管理的建议以及它的重要性。
What advice do you have for someone to get better at managing up?
对于如何更好地进行向上管理，您有什么建议？
Why is that even so important?
为什么这如此重要？
Why do you think people may be under appreciating how important it is to manage your manager, let's say.
比方说，您认为为什么人们可能没有意识到管理您的经理的重要性。
Wes Kao: One of the most common myths about managing up that I definitely felt early on in my career was that I would have to manage up if I were more junior, but eventually I would outgrow it, that I would get senior enough that I would no longer have to do it.
Wes Kao：我在职业生涯早期确实感受到了关于向上管理的最常见的神话之一，那就是如果我的资历更浅，我就必须向上管理，但最终我会摆脱它，我会变得足够高级，我将不再需要这样做。
And it was a rude awakening that no matter how senior I got, managing up, I not only had to manage up, it actually became more important.
我猛然意识到，无论我的职位有多高，向上管理，我不仅必须向上管理，而且实际上变得更加重要。
So I think managing up is one of those skills that if you invest in learning it, it serves you now and for the rest of your career.
因此，我认为向上管理是一项技能，如果你投入学习它，它将为你现在以及你的职业生涯的其余部分服务。
And I realize that many senior people are actually the best at managing up.
我意识到，许多资深人士实际上最擅长向上管理。
That's partially how they got to be so senior in the first place.
这就是他们一开始就如此资深的部分原因。
But also, the more senior you get, the less likely that your manager is going to give you really well-defined tasks and problems on a silver platter and ask you to solve them.
而且，你的职位越高，你的经理就越不可能给你明确定义的任务和问题，并要求你解决它们。
Wes Kao: You are going to be dealing with more ambiguity and you're going to be dealing with sometimes a mandate like make this number go up or create this division, right?
Wes Kao：你会处理更多的模糊性，有时你会处理一些命令，比如让这个数字上升或创建这个部门，对吧？
Where you need to manage up and make sure that your leader, your manager, is in the loop about what you are about to try and what you're about to do and make sure that they're aligned.
你需要向上管理并确保你的领导、你的经理了解你将要尝试什么和你将要做什么，并确保它们保持一致。
And so for me, realizing that managing up is something that is ongoing and that it shifts and evolves and looks different as you go in your career, that was a big unlock for me.
因此，对我来说，认识到向上管理是一件持续的事情，随着你职业生涯的发展，它会发生变化、发展，看起来会有所不同，这对我来说是一个很大的释放。
Lenny Rachitsky: Just that even if you become even a VP, if you become a director and still something you want to invest in, any specific tactic or advice for how to manage up well.
Lenny Rachitsky：只是，即使你成为了副总裁，如果你成为了董事，但仍然想投资一些东西，有什么具体的策略或建议可以很好地管理。
Wes Kao: The biggest one is to share your point of view.
Wes Kao：最大的一点就是分享你的观点。
So this some people are surprised by because they think I'm going to say do a weekly recap of the tasks that you worked on or what you contributed.
因此，有些人对此感到惊讶，因为他们认为我会说每周回顾一下您所做的任务或您贡献的内容。
And that is a good idea, if you want to do it, you can do it.
这是一个好主意，如果你想做，你就可以做到。
But I think the more highly leveraged way to contribute and manage up is by being more vocal about sharing your point of view.
但我认为更有效的贡献和管理方式是更加直言不讳地分享你的观点。
When you just ask your manager, "Hey manager, what should we do?" You're putting a lot of cognitive load on your manager to need to think about the problem, think about potential solutions, craft the solution, and then tell you what to do.
当你问你的经理：“嘿，经理，我们应该做什么？”你给你的经理带来了很大的认知负担，需要他思考问题、思考潜在的解决方案、制定解决方案，然后告诉你要做什么。
Whereas if you instead said, "Hey manager, here's what I think we should do.
相反，如果你说：“嘿经理，这就是我认为我们应该做的。
How does that sound?
听起来怎么样？
Where do you see gaps?
您在哪里看到差距？
Am I thinking in the right direction?" You give them something to build off of and that reduces the amount of mental lift that they have to put forth.
我的思考方向正确吗？”你给了他们一些可以构建的东西，这减少了他们必须付出的精神负担。
Wes Kao: And so sharing your point of view more readily, backing it up with evidence, that's a wonderful way of making your manager's life easier.
Wes Kao：因此，更容易地分享你的观点，并用证据支持它，这是让你的经理的生活更轻松的好方法。
And also showing that you are an active rigorous thinker who is thinking strategically about the business.
同时也表明您是一位活跃、严谨的思考者，正在对业务进行战略性思考。
You're not just waiting to be told what to do, you're not expecting them to figure things out and then tell you you are actively looking around the corner trying to solve problems, forming hypotheses in your mind, observing and noticing things.
你不只是等待被告知要做什么，你也不期望他们解决问题，然后告诉你你正在积极地寻找角落试图解决问题，在你的头脑中形成假设，观察和注意事物。
And again, sharing your point of view doesn't mean that you have the perfect answer.
再说一次，分享你的观点并不意味着你有完美的答案。
You can share that, "Hey, I've noticed this problem popping up in a couple of different places.
您可以分享：“嘿，我注意到这个问题出现在几个不同的地方。
Here's what I think might be happening."
这就是我认为可能发生的情况。”
Wes Kao: Or when you share a report, don't only share the report and expect your manager to come up with insights and takeaways.
Wes Kao：或者，当您分享报告时，不要只是分享报告并期望您的经理提出见解和要点。
You should look at the report too and point out insights and takeaways.
您也应该查看该报告并指出见解和要点。
So it's really changing that posture from more reactive and more waiting to be told what to do or kind of staying in this narrow box to being willing to share your recommendation, your point of view, share what you're noticing, and this is something that even junior people could do.
因此，这确实改变了这种态度，从更加被动、更多等待被告知要做什么或停留在这个狭窄的盒子里，到愿意分享你的建议、你的观点、分享你注意到的事情，这是即使是初级人员也可以做的事情。
Lenny Rachitsky: I was going to say exactly that.
Lenny Rachitsky：我本来就是这么说的。
I think not only is it something junior people can do, this is a really good way to get promoted and to take on more leadership opportunities.
我认为这不仅是初级人员可以做的事情，这也是晋升和获得更多领导机会的好方法。
You coming to your manager with, "Here's something I think we should do.
你去找你的经理说：“我认为我们应该做一些事情。
Here's a perspective I have.
这是我的一个观点。
Here's an opportunity." If you were in charge, you're like, how awesome would it be for people to come to me with amazing ideas and have clear recommendations?
这是一个机会。”如果你是负责人，你会想，如果人们带着惊人的想法和明确的建议来找我，那该多棒啊？
That sounds great.
听起来很棒。
Everyone wants that.
每个人都希望如此。
So if you can do that, amazing.
所以如果你能做到这一点，那就太棒了。
Who wouldn't want that?
谁不想要这样呢？
But then what's interesting is similar to how writing helps you crystallize your thinking, you coming in with a recommendation forces you to really think deeply about it because that's putting your reputation on the line.
但有趣的是，类似于写作如何帮助你具体化你的想法，你收到推荐会迫使你真正深入思考它，因为这会危及你的声誉。
So there's a second order effect of it makes you actually spend more time on the thing and be clear about why you think this is a good idea and do more research.
因此，它的二阶效应会让你实际上花更多的时间在这件事上，并清楚为什么你认为这是一个好主意并做更多的研究。
So a lot of wins here.
所以这里有很多胜利。
Wes Kao: There are a lot of situations where you might have the most visibility into a problem.
Wes Kao：在很多情况下，您可能最能了解问题。
You might have the most proximity into an issue.
您可能最接近某个问题。
And so if you're not speaking up about it and sharing what you're observing, sharing what you're noticing, your manager doesn't necessarily have visibility into that.
因此，如果你不说出来并分享你所观察到的、分享你所注意到的，你的经理不一定能看到这一点。
And so I've heard so many managers say that they want their junior people to speak up more because their junior people have often close contact with customers, with support tickets, with cleaning data, with a bunch of things where the manager would love to hear insights from that.
因此，我听到很多经理说，他们希望初级员工更多地发言，因为他们的初级员工经常与客户密切接触，提供支持票证、清理数据，以及经理希望听到的一系列见解。
Lenny Rachitsky: If you're not having success with this, if you're hearing this and be like, but it never worked, my manager doesn't listen to me, listen to the rest of this podcast we just did, which is basically advice on how to effectively convince someone of a thing.
Lenny Rachitsky：如果你在这方面没有取得成功，如果你听到这个并且说它从来没有起作用，我的经理不会听我的，听我们刚刚做的播客的其余部分，这基本上是关于如何有效地说服某人某件事的建议。
It's like, tell them why this is a problem, be really concise about it, sign post words, all these things.
就像，告诉他们为什么这是一个问题，要非常简洁，在帖子上签名，所有这些事情。
That's exactly what this whole conversation's been about.
这正是整个谈话的目的。
Okay.
好的。
Let's see.
让我们来看看。
We have a couple more really cool tactics that people have suggested we talk about.
人们建议我们讨论一些更酷的策略。
One is how to give feedback well, how to do better, how to be more effective at giving feedback.
一是如何反馈好、如何做得更好、如何更有效地反馈。
What's your advice there?
你有什么建议？
Wes Kao: I have a framework called strategy, not self-expression.
高伟雄：我有一个框架，叫做策略，而不是自我表达。
And so the idea here is that most of the time, by the time we are giving feedback to someone, we have been frustrated for a while.
所以这里的想法是，大多数时候，当我们向某人提供反馈时，我们已经沮丧了一段时间。
I used to be very conflict diverse, so I would wait and try to convince myself that I wasn't bothered by something until I really couldn't hold it in anymore.
我曾经是一个冲突多元化的人，所以我会等待并试图说服自己，我不会被某些事情困扰，直到我真的无法再坚持下去为止。
Then I would schedule a one-on-one with a coworker to tell them the feedback and it would inevitably turn into a venting session where I was in the name of sharing the impact of what they did would share all my frustrations and all the ways that they have basically harmed me and made my life difficult.
然后我会安排与同事进行一对一的交流，告诉他们反馈意见，这不可避免地会变成一次发泄会议，我以分享他们所做的事情的影响的名义，分享我所有的挫败感以及他们基本上伤害我并使我的生活变得困难的所有方式。
And this would be very counterproductive because the person would either feel like and feel really demoralized or they'd get really defensive and they'd want to argue with me about how what they did actually was not that bad or it was partially my fault too or whatever.
这会适得其反，因为这个人要么会感觉非常士气低落，要么他们会变得非常防御，他们想与我争论他们所做的实际上并没有那么糟糕，或者这也部分是我的错或其他什么。
Wes Kao: And so I realized that a better way of giving feedback is thinking about motivating the person's behavior change.
Wes Kao：所以我意识到提供反馈的更好方法是考虑激励人们的行为改变。
The goal is behavior change.
目标是行为改变。
So if that's the goal, trim everything else that you were about to say that does not actually contribute to that goal and only keep the part that will make the person want to change, help them understand the benefit to them as well as to the people around them.
因此，如果这就是目标，请删除您要说的其他所有内容，这些内容实际上不会有助于该目标，只保留会让人们想要改变的部分，帮助他们了解对他们以及周围的人的好处。
And so usually for me, that's trimming 90% of the initial stuff that I want to say and really keeping only that 10%.
所以通常对我来说，这就是删除我最初想说的 90%，只保留那 10%。
And that's made a really big difference.
这确实带来了很大的不同。
Whenever I am giving constructive feedback of any kind, I always keep that in mind.
每当我提供任何类型的建设性反馈时，我都会牢记这一点。
And when I don't do it, I almost always regret it.
当我不这样做时，我几乎总是后悔。
Lenny Rachitsky: Someone close to me in my life is working on the skill, which is there's just, "I want people to know how they messed up.
莱尼·拉奇茨基（Lenny Rachitsky）：我生活中与我关系密切的人正在研究这项技能，那就是，“我想让人们知道他们是如何搞砸的。
Justice.
正义。
I need this to be fair." And what I always recommend is just think about what you want to get out of this conversation, what do you want from them?
我需要这是公平的。”我总是建议你想想你想从这次谈话中得到什么，你想从他们那里得到什么？
And then, okay, what's the best way to get that?
然后，好吧，实现这一目标的最佳方法是什么？
Versus just making sure they hear you and making sure they understand how screwed up this was.
而不是仅仅确保他们听到你的声音并确保他们明白这是多么糟糕。
And that's basically what you're saying is focus on the outcome you want to achieve, not something that's useful, something that will make you just feel better.
基本上，你所说的就是关注你想要实现的结果，而不是那些有用的东西，那些会让你感觉更好的东西。
Wes Kao: Yeah.
高伟雄：是的。
I definitely think that having a space to vent and to share those frustrations is important.
我绝对认为拥有一个发泄和分享这些挫败感的空间很重要。
So you want to get that out before you go into the conversation with your counterpart.
因此，在与对方交谈之前，您需要先弄清楚这一点。
So whether it's talking to your therapist or your partner or friend, you want to basically get all that energy out because otherwise you bring it into the conversation and it doesn't take much to set you off.
因此，无论是与您的治疗师、伴侣还是朋友交谈，您基本上都希望释放出所有能量，因为否则您将其带入谈话中，并且不需要太多就能让您兴奋。
You might have a whole script, you're controlled, you're calm, and then you start talking and the other person raises an eyebrow and is acting a little incredulous at what you're saying, and that's all it takes for you to snap and be like, "You're surprised?
你可能有一个完整的剧本，你受到控制，你很平静，然后你开始说话，另一个人扬起眉毛，对你说的话表现出有点难以置信，这就是你突然爆发的原因，“你感到惊讶吗？
You're incredulous?
你不相信吗？
Why are you incredulous?" Right?
你为何不信？”正确的？
And then you're off, right?
然后你就走了，对吧？
Yeah.
是的。
Getting that energy out, I would say step one, so that you can go into the conversation clear, grounded, setting that emotional tone that is more positive and that allows you to stay focused on only the part that will get them to behave in the way you want them to behave.
我想说，第一步是释放出这种能量，这样你就可以清晰、脚踏实地地进行对话，设定更积极的情绪基调，让你只专注于让他们按照你希望他们的方式行事的部分。
Lenny Rachitsky: Such good advice.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：非常好的建议。
And I think we come back to are you getting the outcomes you want?
我想我们会回到你是否得到了你想要的结果？
If you're not, this is another reason it might be the case is you just need them to hear your mind.
如果您不这样做，这可能是您只需要他们听听您的想法的另一个原因。
I just need you to know.
我只需要你知道。
And I think a lesson here is that may not be the best path to getting what you want, but it may feel good.
我认为这里的一个教训是，这可能不是获得你想要的东西的最佳途径，但它可能感觉很好。
Maybe people are like, "Ah, but I really want them to know this."
也许人们会说，“啊，但我真的想让他们知道这一点。”
Wes Kao: There's that great Einstein quote about insanity being repeating things that you're doing expecting a different outcome.
Wes Kao：爱因斯坦有句伟大的名言，重复你正在做的事情并期望得到不同的结果，这就是疯狂。
And I feel like that applies so much to the workplace and to communication.
我觉得这对于工作场所和沟通来说非常适用。
Most of us have certain patterns that we are used to and certain ways of responding, and if you believe that there is untapped upside that whatever you are at is kind of a local maximum and that there's better out there, then that's where switching things up could be useful and not just doing everything that you've been doing and getting the same result that you might be getting.
我们大多数人都有我们习惯的某些模式和某些应对方式，如果你相信有尚未开发的好处，无论你现在处于什么程度，都是局部最大值，而且还有更好的，那么这就是改变事情可能有用的地方，而不仅仅是做你一直在做的所有事情并获得与你可能得到的相同结果。
Lenny Rachitsky: This resonates with Toby Lutke when he is doing the podcast, talked about how...
Lenny Rachitsky：这引起了 Toby Lutke 在做播客时的共鸣，谈到了如何......
He had this quote that I love that just "No human in history has come anywhere near their potential and everyone is way, way, way better than they think are," and these are really cool tactics and really effective ways to actually get closer to your potential.
我喜欢他的一句话，“历史上没有人能够接近他们的潜力，每个人都比他们想象的要好得多”，这些都是非常酷的策略，也是真正接近你的潜力的有效方法。
Okay.
好的。
Two more things I want to talk about real quick.
我想快速谈一下另外两件事。
One is your advice on delegating, but also continuing to have high standards.
一是您关于授权的建议，但也要继续保持高标准。
This is something I spent a lot of time on because a lot of people don't delegate because they're afraid it's not going to be as great.
这是我花了很多时间的事情，因为很多人不会授权，因为他们担心事情不会那么好。
I just want this to be really good.
我只是想让这一切变得非常好。
I don't trust that it's going to go as well.
我不相信它也会顺利进行。
If I did it my way, it'd be great.
如果我按照自己的方式去做，那就太好了。
So just advice on how to delegate effectively while maintaining high standards.
因此，我们仅提供有关如何在保持高标准的同时有效授权的建议。
Wes Kao: Yeah.
高伟雄：是的。
I have a framework called CEDAF.
我有一个名为 CEDAF 的框架。
C-E-D-A-F.
C-E-D-A-F。
Lenny Rachitsky: Mm-hmm.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：嗯嗯。
I love all these acronyms.
我喜欢所有这些缩写词。
Wes Kao: It's kind of like Cedar, but with an F at the end.
Wes Kao：有点像 Cedar，但末尾有一个 F。
I need acronyms for myself.
我自己需要缩写词。
All of these are really reminders for myself because I need a short way to remind myself.
所有这些都是对自己的真正提醒，因为我需要一个简短的方式来提醒自己。
So CEDAF stands for the C is comprehension.
所以CEDAF代表C是理解力。
So have I given this person that I'm delegating to everything that they need to understand what it is that I want them to do.
那么，我是否已将我委托给这个人的一切事情委托给他们，让他们了解我希望他们做什么。
That includes more simple things like logins to all the right software tools that they need to look up, whatever you need to look up.
这包括更简单的事情，例如登录他们需要查找的所有正确的软件工具，无论您需要查找什么。
And understanding what the end result should look like, right?
并了解最终结果应该是什么样子，对吧？
So that's all under C for comprehension.
所以这一切都在 C 下进行理解。
E is excitement.
E是兴奋。
Am I explaining this in a way that is making this as exciting as it could be?
我是否以一种尽可能令人兴奋的方式解释这一点？
There are a lot of tasks that aren't inherently that exciting, but by explaining the why behind we're doing this or why it's important to the project we're working on, that makes people more likely to understand and be excited about how this fits into everything.
有很多任务本质上并不是那么令人兴奋，但是通过解释我们这样做的原因或者为什么它对我们正在从事的项目很重要，这会让人们更有可能理解它如何适应一切，并对此感到兴奋。
Wes Kao: So E is for excitement.
Wes Kao：所以E是兴奋的意思。
D is for de-risk.
D代表去风险。
Am I de-risking any obvious risks from delegating this?
我是否可以通过委托来消除任何明显的风险？
So usually when I ask clients this, they immediately think of something.
所以通常当我问客户这个问题时，他们会立即想到一些事情。
They're like, "Oh yeah, I wouldn't want my direct report to spend a ton of time going in the wrong direction, filling out a hundred rows of the spreadsheet if actually it took longer than we expected." Okay, great.
他们会说，“哦，是的，我不希望我的直接下属花大量时间去错误的方向填写一百行电子表格，如果实际上花费的时间比我们预期的要长的话。”好的，太好了。
If that's a risk, then maybe you have them do 10 rows, see how long it takes, see if we need all the information that they're actually gathering, and then regroup, right?
如果这是一个风险，那么也许你让他们做 10 行，看看需要多长时间，看看我们是否需要他们实际收集的所有信息，然后重新组合，对吧？
So what's an obvious risk?
那么什么是明显的风险呢？
Another might be I can see this person misunderstanding and thinking I'm looking for this where I'm really looking for that.
另一个可能是我可以看到这个人误解并认为我正在寻找这个，而我真正在寻找那个。
Okay, perfect.
好的，完美。
Just tell them, "When I explain this, you might think I mean this, but really I don't want that.
只要告诉他们，“当我解释这一点时，你可能会认为我是这个意思，但实际上我不想那样。
I actually want this," right?
我其实想要这个，”对吧？
So just vocalize it.
所以只要发声就可以了。
The A is for align.
A 表示对齐。
So am I giving the other person a chance to-
那么我是否给对方一个机会——
Wes Kao: The A is for align.
Wes Kao：A 代表对齐。
So am I giving the other person a chance to speak up and make sure we are actually aligned, that they're picking up what I'm putting down?
那么，我是否给对方一个发言的机会，并确保我们实际上是一致的，他们正在接受我所写下的内容？
Because you might be explaining a bunch of stuff, but how much are they actually absorbing?
因为你可能会解释一堆东西，但它们实际上吸收了多少内容？
You won't ever know if you wrap up your little spiel and then say, "Okay, go off.
如果你结束你的小长篇大论然后说：“好吧，走开，你永远不会知道。
Come back to me when you're done." So give people a chance to ask questions to see what parts are resonating, what parts they might be a little bit confused on.
等你忙完了就回来找我吧。”因此，给人们一个提问的机会，看看哪些部分产生了共鸣，哪些部分他们可能有点困惑。
Usually, when I do this, it's amazing.
通常，当我这样做时，它是令人惊奇的。
Because my team member will say, "What did you mean by this part?
因为我的团队成员会说：“这部分是什么意思？
How does this part fit in?" I'm like, "Oh my God, I totally forgot to mention this thing." Or, "Oh yeah, I didn't even really explain that well." Okay, so let's go into that.
这部分如何配合？”我当时想，“天哪，我完全忘记提到这件事了。”或者，“哦，是的，我什至没有解释得那么好。”好的，让我们开始吧。
Wes Kao: And then F is feedback.
Wes Kao：然后F就是反馈。
How can you have the shortest feedback loop possible?
如何才能拥有最短的反馈循环？
I am a huge fan of shorting the feedback loop as much as possible and then shortening it again.
我非常喜欢尽可能缩短反馈回路，然后再次缩短。
So even within that initial conversation where I'm delegating something, instead of waiting a week, what if we waited a day and checked in on the initial direction that person was going?
因此，即使在我委派某些事情的最初对话中，我们也不必等待一周，如果我们等一天并检查该人最初的方向会怎样？
And let's do it even more.
让我们做得更多。
What if after I finished explaining, at the end of that conversation, we brainstormed a couple things that, that person wants to do?
如果我解释完之后，在谈话结束时，我们集思广益，讨论了那个人想做的几件事，该怎么办？
So within this same conversation, I'm delegating, I'm already getting a sense of, where do you want to go with this?
因此，在同一次对话中，我正在授权，我已经感觉到，你想做什么？
Once you start, do you see any bottlenecks?
一旦开始，您是否发现任何瓶颈？
Wes Kao: And so just really keeping that feedback loop super tight.
Wes Kao：所以要保持反馈循环非常紧密。
I found that when I run through the CDAP acronym, there's usually one letter that I could amp up a little bit more like, oh, I didn't really put much thought into making this exciting for the person.
我发现当我浏览 CDAP 缩写词时，通常有一个字母我可以放大一点，比如，哦，我并没有真正考虑让这个人感到兴奋。
How can I connect this to their career goals or to the company's priorities this quarter or to something else?
我如何将其与他们的职业目标或公司本季度的优先事项或其他事项联系起来？
So it's a nice mental checklist.
所以这是一个很好的心理检查表。
Lenny Rachitsky: So much of your advice comes back to this idea that we've touched on a couple of times.
Lenny Rachitsky：您的很多建议都回到了我们已经讨论过几次的这个想法。
We just spend a little bit more time upfront.
我们只是提前多花一点时间。
Is that how you described it, a little more time upfront?
这就是你所描述的，提前多一点时间吗？
Wes Kao: Yeah, a little bit more time.
Wes Kao：是的，再多一点时间。
A little bit more of an investment upfront.
前期投资多一点。
Lenny Rachitsky: Upfront to save you tons of time later.
Lenny Rachitsky：提前做好准备可以为您节省大量时间。
Okay.
好的。
So as you described this, I don't know if you're realizing this, but you're basically just helping people work better with AI and agents.
正如您所描述的那样，我不知道您是否意识到这一点，但您基本上只是在帮助人们更好地使用人工智能和代理进行工作。
This framework is exactly I think what people need to effectively delegate to this future world of this agent world of society of agents doing work for us.
我认为这个框架正是人们需要有效地委托给为我们工作的代理人社会的未来世界。
Basically, you're going to be delegating to these agents in the future, and this framework is a really cool way to frame it.
基本上，您将来将委托给这些代理，而这个框架是一种非常酷的构建方式。
So think about it.
所以想一想。
Am I communicating this well, comprehension?
我沟通得这么好吗，理解吗？
So CDAP.
所以 CDAP。
Comprehension is, again, can I make this clear?
理解是，我能说清楚吗？
Is that the way to think about that?
这是思考这个问题的方式吗？
Wes Kao: Yeah.
高伟雄：是的。
Can I make this clear?
我可以说清楚吗？
Does this person have everything they need to be able to accomplish what I am asking them to do?
这个人是否拥有完成我要求他们做的事情所需的一切？
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。
And then it's communicate why you're excited about this, basically the why.
然后就是传达为什么你对此感到兴奋，基本上是为什么。
And it's interesting, there's this funny prompt technique I've learned, prompting engineering technique of just telling the AI, "This is very important to my job." Just using that sentence, it does it better.
有趣的是，我学到了一种有趣的提示技术，提示工程技术只是告诉人工智能，“这对我的工作非常重要”。只要用这句话，效果就更好了。
Lenny Rachitsky: It takes it more seriously.
Lenny Rachitsky：它更严肃地对待它。
It's just so weird.
真是太奇怪了。
I have a post about this, and that's one of the pieces of advice, just tell me why this is important.
我有一篇关于此的文章，这是建议之一，请告诉我为什么这很重要。
I think people take it to the extreme as someone will die if you don't get this right.
我认为人们会把它推向极端，因为如果你做不好这一点就会有人死。
That actually works.
这确实有效。
Lenny Rachitsky: It's wild.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：这很疯狂。
Okay, so CEDF, comprehension, excited, de-risk, think about ways you can de-risk, which is moot, basically.
好吧，CEDF，理解，兴奋，降低风险，想想可以降低风险的方法，这基本上是没有意义的。
What's the most?
什么是最多的？
It's a similar concept.
这是一个类似的概念。
Just think ahead to what might go wrong.
提前考虑一下可能会出现什么问题。
Make sure you're aligned, which is quite important in the AI space.
确保你们保持一致，这在人工智能领域非常重要。
Make sure you're aligned.
确保你们对齐。
And feedback, get a quick feedback cycle.
和反馈，获得快速的反馈周期。
And it's interesting with deep research on some of these AI tools now, it's like, "I'm off for half an hour.
现在对其中一些人工智能工具的深入研究很有趣，就像，“我休息了半个小时。
See you." And I imagine more and more of them will check in with you as it's going and ask you questions.
再见。”我想他们中会有越来越多的人会在事情进展过程中与你联系并向你提问。
I used deep research recently and it's really good at just like, okay, let me have five questions for you before I go off and do this work just to clarify what you want.
我最近进行了深入研究，它真的很擅长，好吧，在我开始做这项工作之前，让我问你五个问题，只是为了澄清你想要什么。
Wes Kao: Yeah, I found that AI will often shorten the feedback loop and align with you as well.
Wes Kao：是的，我发现人工智能通常会缩短反馈循环并与你保持一致。
When you prompt it, when it comes back, it will not do the entire task for me, sometimes.
当你提示它时，当它返回时，有时它不会为我完成整个任务。
It'll say, "I've done the first part of this.
它会说：“我已经完成了第一部分。
Does this sound right?
这听起来正确吗？
Is this what you're looking for?
这是您要找的吗？
If so, I will complete the next section." And then sometimes I'm like, "Do the whole thing.
如果是这样，我将完成下一部分。”有时我会说，“把整件事都做完。
Just stop trying to conserve energy and just do.
不要再试图节约能源了，就去做吧。
I want you to do the whole thing." But that's what it's doing, it's breaking it into smaller chunks to de-risk that it's going to use all this bandwidth to process this thing and I'm going to say, "Oh, that's not what I was looking for."
我希望你能完成所有的事情。”但这就是它正在做的事情，它将它分成更小的块，以降低它将使用所有这些带宽来处理这个东西的风险，我会说，“哦，这不是我想要的。”
Lenny Rachitsky: I'm going to come back to AI real quick, but before I do that, I have one more question for you, but let me just say, I feel like we've discovered an AI version of your course now.
Lenny Rachitsky：我很快就会回到人工智能，但在此之前，我还有一个问题要问你，但我只想说，我觉得我们现在已经发现了你的课程的人工智能版本。
Basically, how to delegate well to AI agents that I think people are going to find really valuable, planting a seed.
基本上，如何很好地委托给人工智能代理，我认为人们会发现真正有价值的，播种种子。
Okay.
好的。
Before we get back to AI, you have this other concept that I love that I actually learned from you years ago when I was working on my course called the swipe file.
在我们回到人工智能之前，你有一个我喜欢的另一个概念，实际上是我几年前在学习课程时从你那里学到的，称为“滑动文件”。
Swipe file, what is a swipe file?
刷卡文件，什么是刷卡文件？
What is that about?
那是关于什么的？
What can it help you with?
它能帮到你什么？
Why should people be doing this?
人们为什么要这样做？
Wes Kao: Yeah.
高伟雄：是的。
So swipe files are really common for marketers, and I think other functions haven't caught on as much, but I think it is really, really useful.
因此，滑动文件对于营销人员来说确实很常见，我认为其他功能还没有那么流行，但我认为它真的非常有用。
And basically a swipe file is collecting inspiration that you can refer back to later on.
基本上，滑动文件正在收集灵感，您可以稍后参考。
So some marketers will collect examples of copy, landing pages, ads, et cetera.
因此，一些营销人员会收集文案、登陆页面、广告等示例。
For me, I have a file, an Apple Notes, file called Smart Things People Have Said, where I will basically paste in phrases, words, things people have said that I thought were well articulated or sounded really intelligent or sounded strategic.
对我来说，我有一个文件，一个苹果笔记，名为“人们所说的聪明话”的文件，我基本上会在其中粘贴人们所说的短语、单词和我认为表达良好或听起来非常聪明或听起来有战略意义的东西。
And I don't actually go back and look through my swipe file very often, I think other people do, but for me, even the act of adding it to my swipe file, I've already gotten value from it because it's training me to be more alert to noticing when something is working well.
我实际上并不经常回去查看我的滑动文件，我认为其他人会这样做，但对我来说，即使是将其添加到我的滑动文件中，我也已经从中获得了价值，因为它训练我更加警惕地注意到某些事情运行良好。
Wes Kao: I think there's so much happening around us all the time that your coworker says something smart and you're like, "Oh, that was nice," and then you keep moving on.
Wes Kao：我认为我们周围总是发生很多事情，你的同事说了一些聪明的话，你就会说，“哦，那太好了”，然后你就继续前进。
But when you stop and pause and think, oh, that was really effective, let me add it to my file, and also think about, why was that effective and is that something I can borrow?
但是当你停下来思考，哦，这真的很有效，让我把它添加到我的文件中，同时想想，为什么它有效，这是我可以借用的东西吗？
So in my course, I encourage folks to create a work journal where they can jot down some of these observations, some of these phrases, and basically encourage yourself to be more alert to things you can borrow from other people all around you.
因此，在我的课程中，我鼓励人们创建一份工作日记，他们可以在其中记下一些观察结果、一些短语，并且基本上鼓励自己对可以从周围其他人那里借用的东西更加警惕。
Lenny Rachitsky: Something else about the swipe file, you use quotes.
Lenny Rachitsky：关于滑动文件的其他内容，您使用引号。
It could be screenshots of cool designs.
它可能是很酷的设计的屏幕截图。
It could be strategy docs you found to be really effective.
这可能是您发现真正有效的策略文档。
It could be conversion flows that are really cool.
这可能是非常酷的转化流程。
It could be just whatever you're interested in.
它可能只是您感兴趣的任何内容。
Wes Kao: Yeah.
高伟雄：是的。
And the great thing about that is you can then go back and analyze it and break down the structure, break down the argument, break down why was this so effective?
这样做的好处是你可以回去分析它并分解结构，分解论证，分解为什么如此有效？
Whereas if you're not capturing it, it's easy to just move on to the next thing.
然而，如果您没有捕获它，则很容易继续进行下一件事。
Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, cool.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的，很酷。
And I did this for a while.
我这样做了一段时间。
I stopped, to be honest, but I really want to be doing this.
说实话，我停了下来，但我真的很想这样做。
So this is maybe some homework or something, because I know a lot of people stick with it, is just start like a folder or a Notes, note, whatever you use for your note-taking, and just start throwing stuff in there.
所以这可能是一些家庭作业或其他什么东西，因为我知道很多人都坚持这样做，就像一个文件夹或一个笔记，笔记，无论你用来做笔记的什么东西一样开始，然后开始把东西扔进去。
And it could be messy, right?
而且可能会很混乱，对吧？
It's just like, throw it in.
就好像，扔进去一样。
Wes Kao: It can be super messy.
Wes Kao：可能会非常混乱。
I was going to say, my back end system is super messy and it's fine.
我想说，我的后端系统超级混乱，但没关系。
It's not a problem I need to be solving.
这不是我需要解决的问题。
It works.
有用。
I find things I need to find.
我找到我需要找到的东西。
So I like having as simple of a process as possible.
所以我喜欢流程尽可能简单。
So Apple Notes, I open it.
Apple Notes，我打开它。
It's just on my home screen, I just add something.
它就在我的主屏幕上，我只是添加了一些东西。
I'm not tagging anything, I'm not putting it in certain rows and filling information out.
我不会标记任何内容，也不会将其放入某些行中并填写信息。
I'm just including it in a file, and if I want to go back and look at it, it served its purpose.
我只是将它包含在一个文件中，如果我想回去查看它，它就达到了它的目的。
Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
Okay, so last question.
好的，最后一个问题。
AI, I'm going to just come back to this briefly.
AI，我将简单地回顾一下这一点。
We have this segment on the podcast called AI Corner, and we touched on this already, but I'm just curious how you have found AI to be useful in your work or your life, whether it's helped you become a better communicator?
我们在播客上有一个名为“AI Corner”的部分，我们已经谈到了这一点，但我很好奇您是如何发现人工智能在您的工作或生活中有用的，它是否帮助您成为更好的沟通者？
Is there anything you can share that might be helpful to folks?
您有什么可以分享的，可能对人们有帮助的吗？
Wes Kao: Yeah.
高伟雄：是的。
I love Claude.
我爱克劳德。
There are days when I talk to Claude for three or four hours prompting as a thought partner.
有时我会与克劳德交谈三四个小时，作为思想伙伴进行提示。
So yeah, I think that AI is really helpful for an initial draft of something to bounce off of.
所以，是的，我认为人工智能对于草稿的初稿确实很有帮助。
Sometimes I'll paste in an email that I am not quite sure how to respond to and ask Claude, "Tell me draft reply." And I'll usually give it some direction.
有时我会粘贴一封我不太确定如何回复的电子邮件，然后问克劳德，“告诉我草稿回复。”我通常会给它一些指导。
So I found that sharing my point of view makes the output way better.
所以我发现分享我的观点可以让输出更好。
If I just give it something and say, "What would you say?" It's just not as good.
如果我给它一些东西并说：“你会说什么？”只是没那么好。
Whereas if I say, "I am not sure about how to tell this person no, because I previously said yes and so I feel on the hook, but history has changed and so is there a nice way where I can be really respectful of our relationship and also make them feel seen and heard, but decline?"
然而，如果我说，“我不知道如何告诉这个人不，因为我之前说过‘是’，所以我觉得自己很麻烦，但历史已经改变了，所以有没有一种好的方法可以让我真正尊重我们的关系，也让他们感到被看到和听到，但拒绝呢？”
Wes Kao: So if I explain, "That's the problem I'm dealing with and here's what I would ideally like to be able to do," Claude comes back to something that's pretty good.
Wes Kao：所以，如果我解释说，“这就是我正在处理的问题，这就是我理想中希望能够做的事情，”克劳德会回到一些非常好的事情。
And then from there I'll edit it to my voice because usually it's a little bit too formal sounding.
然后我会把它编辑成我的声音，因为通常听起来有点太正式了。
And so I'll make some edits and then I'll share it back to Claude and say, "What do you think of this version?
所以我会做一些编辑，然后我会把它分享给克劳德并说，“你觉得这个版本怎么样？
Would you make any improvements?" And then we go back and forth from there.
你会做出一些改进吗？”然后我们从那里来回。
Lenny Rachitsky: Wes, this is the most useful thing I've ever heard.
Lenny Rachitsky：韦斯，这是我听过的最有用的事情。
Lenny Rachitsky: I need this and I need this immediately, just nice ways to say no to stuff.
Lenny Rachitsky：我需要这个，而且我立即需要这个，这是对事物说“不”的好方法。
This needs to be an extension that I can have in my browser, just, "Help me say no to this, please." Wow, such a great idea.
这需要是我可以在浏览器中安装的扩展程序，只需“请帮我对此说不”。哇，真是个好主意。
Okay, good one.
好吧，很好的一个。
Okay, great.
好的，太好了。
Wes, is there anything else?
韦斯，还有别的事吗？
We've gone through a lot.
我们经历了很多。
I imagine the answer is no, but before we get to our very exciting lightning round, is there anything else that you wanted to share or leave listeners with?
我想答案是否定的，但在我们开始激动人心的闪电回合之前，您还有什么想分享或留给听众的吗？
Wes Kao: No, I feel like we covered a bunch of great frameworks, principles, so lots for folks to get started.
Wes Kao：不，我觉得我们涵盖了很多很棒的框架、原则，所以有很多东西可供人们入门。
Lenny Rachitsky: All the things.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：所有的事情。
And I love that so much of this will apply to being more effective with AI tools and I feel like people can go through this again and just through that lens of, how will this helped me get more out of Claude and ChatGPT?
我喜欢这在很大程度上将适用于更有效地使用人工智能工具，我觉得人们可以再次经历这一点，只是通过这个镜头，这将如何帮助我从 Claude 和 ChatGPT 中获得更多收益？
I bet so much of this will actually apply and I feel like there's an interesting course there.
我敢打赌，其中很多内容实际上都会适用，而且我觉得那里有一门有趣的课程。
With that, Wes, we've reached our very exciting lightning round.
韦斯，就这样，我们进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。
First question, what are a couple books that you recommend most to other people?
第一个问题，您最向其他人推荐的几本书是什么？
Wes Kao: One is High Output Management by Andy Grove, which is a classic.
高伟雄：一本是安迪·格罗夫的《高产出管理》，这是经典。
Another one is Your Brain At Work by Dr. David Rock.
另一本是大卫·洛克博士的《你的大脑在工作》。
And that one is all about better understanding your own brain and attention span so that you can allocate your mental resources appropriately.
这就是为了更好地了解你自己的大脑和注意力范围，以便你可以适当地分配你的心理资源。
So that one's great.
所以那个很棒。
Ever since reading that, I hide my phone from view because there have been studies that show that even seeing your phone in the corner of your eye, it's distracting.
自从读到这篇文章后，我就把手机藏起来，因为有研究表明，即使用眼角的余光看手机，也会分散注意力。
And I do the hardest things earlier in the day when you have more cognitive resources available.
当你有更多可用的认知资源时，我会在当天早些时候做最困难的事情。
So that one's really good.
所以那个真的很好。
Yeah, those two.
是的，那两个。
Lenny Rachitsky: These are great.
Lenny Rachitsky：这些都很棒。
I completely get that phone thing.
我完全明白电话的事了。
I'm just looking at my phone, I'm like, "Dang, get out of here.
我只是看着我的手机，我想，“该死，离开这里。
Just go away."
走吧。”
Wes Kao: I will stick it under my pillow on the couch or hide it under a notebook.
Wes Kao：我会把它贴在沙发上的枕头底下，或者藏在笔记本下面。
It's huge.
它是巨大的。
I'm always hiding my phone so it's not in my line of sight.
我总是把手机藏起来，以免它出现在我的视线范围内。
Lenny Rachitsky: I think Arianna Huffington has a product you can buy that's a little bed for your phone that you put to bed before you go to bed in a different room and it has a charger attached.
Lenny Rachitsky：我认为阿里安娜·赫芬顿（Arianna Huffington）有一种产品你可以买，它是一个放手机的小床，你在另一个房间睡觉之前把它放在床上，它还附有充电器。
Wes Kao: I don't know if I need a separate bed for my phone.
Wes Kao：我不知道我是否需要单独的床来放手机。
Lenny Rachitsky: But it's like a ritual, I guess, and there's some theory behind it.
Lenny Rachitsky：但这就像一种仪式，我想，背后有一些理论。
Okay, next question.
好的，下一个问题。
Favorite recent movie or TV show you really enjoyed?
您最近最喜欢的电影或电视节目是？
Wes Kao: I love Anything by Harlan Coben on Netflix.
韦斯·高 (Wes Kao)：我喜欢 Netflix 上哈伦·科本 (Harlan Coben) 的《一切》(Anything)。
Basically, I don't even remember any specific movies or a TV series, but anything he puts out, he's an author and then they've turned a lot of his books into mystery thriller TV series, and anything he puts out becomes number one on Netflix.
基本上，我什至不记得任何具体的电影或电视剧，但无论他推出什么，他都是一位作家，然后他们把他的很多书变成了神秘惊悚电视剧，他推出的任何东西都会成为Netflix上的第一名。
And I appreciate that he gives the people what they want, that he knows his craft, he knows his genre.
我很欣赏他给了人们他们想要的东西，他了解他的技艺，他了解他的流派。
And yeah, he just has so many bangers.
是的，他有太多的胡言乱语。
And I don't remember any specific one, but if it's a Harlan Coben show, I know it's going to be good.
我不记得具体的一场，但如果是哈伦·科本的演出，我知道那会很棒。
Lenny Rachitsky: I'm looking at a list now I just Googled real quick.
Lenny Rachitsky：我现在正在看一份清单，我刚刚在谷歌上快速搜索过。
So it's all scary stuff, right?
所以这都是可怕的事情，对吧？
Wes Kao: Yeah, they're mystery thrillers, and I think he does a good job playing with time and revealing information over time.
Wes Kao：是的，它们是悬疑惊悚片，我认为他在玩弄时间和随着时间的推移揭示信息方面做得很好。
It's usually something about someone's past that is now coming to haunt them, and so he'll skip between present day to the past and then slowly reveal stuff.
通常是某人过去的一些事情现在困扰着他们，所以他会在现在和过去之间跳来跳去，然后慢慢地透露一些东西。
And there's always a twist at the end.
最后总是有一个转折。
Lenny Rachitsky: There's a page, the Harlan Coben Collection on Netflix.
Lenny Rachitsky：Netflix 上有一个页面，名为《哈伦·科本合集》。
That we'll link to that has all this stuff.
我们将链接到的内容包含所有这些内容。
I've never heard of this, so this is great.
我从来没有听说过这个，所以这太棒了。
Next question, do you have a favorite product you recently discovered that you really love?
下一个问题，您最近发现有一款您真正喜欢的最喜欢的产品吗？
Wes Kao: I recently started using an electric toothbrush and it's been life-changing.
Wes Kao：我最近开始使用电动牙刷，它改变了我的生活。
So my husband got one and then a couple weeks later he gifted me one, and I was like, "Wow, this is actually really nice."
所以我丈夫买了一个，几周后他送给我一个，我当时想，“哇，这真的很棒。”
Lenny Rachitsky: Are you a Sonicare person, Oral-B person, or something else?
Lenny Rachitsky：您是 Sonicare 人士、Oral-B 人士还是其他人士？
Wes Kao: It's Oral-B but I've not tried any other brand.
Wes Kao：是欧乐B，但我没有尝试过其他品牌。
That was one that our dentist gifted my husband this electric toothbrush because he did Invisalign.
我们的牙医送给我丈夫一把电动牙刷，因为他做了 Invisalign 隐适美。
And I'm sure Invisalign is every dentist's dream.
我确信 Invisalign 隐适美是每个牙医的梦想。
Wes Kao: I feel like every time I get a cleaning, the dentist is like, "So have you thought about, are you interested in Invisalign?" I'm like, "No." And so when they get a yes, I'm sure they're really excited, and then they lock you in, the brand locks you in with these replacement toothbrush heads that are way more expensive than they should be.
Wes Kao：我感觉每次我做清洁时，牙医都会说，“那你有没有想过，你对 Invisalign 隐适美感兴趣吗？”我说：“不。”因此，当他们得到肯定的答复时，我确信他们真的很兴奋，然后他们将你锁定，该品牌用这些比应有的贵得多的替换牙刷头将你锁定。
So it's a whole razor and blades, ink cartridge and printer model here.
这是一个完整的剃须刀和刀片、墨盒和打印机模型。
So I was horrified by how expensive these replacement heads were.
所以我对这些替换头的昂贵程度感到震惊。
Lenny Rachitsky: But you got a free toothbrush.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：但是你有一把免费的牙刷。
I think the Oral-B is what I use, but I think that's what the Wirecutter recommended, but it's so loud.
我认为 Oral-B 是我使用的，但我认为这是 Wirecutter 推荐的，但声音太大了。
I don't know.
我不知道。
One of them is just really loud.
其中一个声音真的很大。
I think it's the Oral-B, but it's better, apparently.
我认为它是 Oral-B，但显然它更好。
I went with Wirecutter, but it's so loud.
我用的是Wirecutter，但是声音太大了。
I feel like there needs to be a Wirecutter for good design and experience...
我觉得需要有一个 Wirecutter 才能获得良好的设计和体验......
Lenny Rachitsky: ...
莱尼·拉奇茨基：……
versus just the optimal efficient version.
与最佳高效版本相比。
Anyway, let's keep going.
不管怎样，我们继续吧。
Do you have a life motto that you often find useful in work or in life that you repeat yourself and share with folks?
您有没有经常在工作或生活中重复并与他人分享的有用的人生格言？
Wes Kao: Yes.
高伟雄：是的。
I actually have many, but I'll share two.
其实我有很多，但我会分享两个。
One is everything takes longer than you think.
一是一切都比你想象的要花更长的时间。
So this applies whether you are calling customer support for something or running an errand or building your career, building skills.
因此，无论您是为某事致电客户支持、办事还是发展职业、培养技能，这都适用。
I find it's useful to add buffers for yourself.
我发现为自己添加缓冲区很有用。
This applies for launches too.
这也适用于发布。
Just assume it will take longer than you think and you'll be less stressed.
只要假设这需要比你想象的更长的时间，你的压力就会减轻。
Lenny Rachitsky: That connects to everything we've been talking about.
Lenny Rachitsky：这与我们一直在谈论的所有事情都有联系。
Just spend a little more time upfront to make it.
只需提前多花一点时间即可完成。
And maybe if you spend more time front, it'll take less time than you think.
也许如果你花更多的时间在前面，那么花费的时间会比你想象的要少。
Wes Kao: The other one is a riff on always be closing, like Glengarry Ross.
Wes Kao：另一首是对永远结束的即兴演奏，就像格伦加里·罗斯一样。
"It's always be selling." This does not mean pawning your wares, but rather putting forth effort into convincing the other person of whatever your recommendation is.
“它总是很畅销。”这并不意味着典当您的商品，而是要努力说服对方接受您的建议。
Lenny Rachitsky: Love them.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：爱他们。
Okay, final question.
好的，最后一个问题。
So you've been a long time, I hate this word operator, but I guess that's the way people describe this, where you've just been working at companies, building companies, and you recently left that just to become creative person.
所以你已经很长一段时间了，我讨厌这个词“运算符”，但我想这就是人们描述这一点的方式，你刚刚在公司工作，建立公司，而你最近离开了，只是为了成为有创造力的人。
Started a course on Maven.
开始了 Maven 课程。
You do executive coaching, things like that.
你做高管教练之类的事情。
Any just lessons or a lesson from that jump that might be helpful to folks that are maybe thinking about that?
有什么教训或从这次跳跃中得到的教训可能对那些可能正在考虑这个问题的人有帮助吗？
Wes Kao: I think when you are an in-house operator, there's a lot about your role that you have a little bit less control over, basically.
Wes Kao：我认为，当你是一名内部操作员时，基本上，你对自己角色的很多控制权都比较少。
There's just certain things you have to do because it comes with the territory.
有些事情你必须做，因为它是与领土相关的。
Whereas when you are a solo operator running your own business, doing your own thing, you have a lot of freedom to craft your work around only your strengths, only the part that you are really good at, that adds a lot of value for other people where there's market demand.
而当你是一个独立经营者经营自己的生意，做自己的事情时，你有很大的自由来只围绕你的优势，只围绕你真正擅长的部分来设计你的工作，这为有市场需求的其他人增加了很多价值。
And so, for me, there was a bit of a shift where when I realized that I could craft my business, my work around only the part that I'm best at, and that can be a narrow-ass slice, that's actually really, really freeing.
因此，对我来说，当我意识到我可以打造自己的业务时，我的工作只围绕我最擅长的部分进行，这可能是一个狭窄的部分，这实际上是非常非常自由的，发生了一些转变。
Wes Kao: And so I would encourage folks to think about, what is the thing that you are extremely good at that people find super valuable, the part that you love doing most, if you could not do all the other stuff you don't want to do, and how can you think about doubling down on that?
Wes Kao：所以我鼓励人们思考，如果你不能做所有其他你不想做的事情，那么你最擅长的事情是什么，人们觉得超级有价值，你最喜欢做的部分，你怎么能考虑加倍努力呢？
Lenny Rachitsky: That's such an important point.
Lenny Rachitsky：这是非常重要的一点。
And the Claude tip you shared of how to say no well is such an important ingredient into that, because so many things come at you and are interesting and enticing that it's hard to decline, that you realize, why the hell am I doing this?
你分享的克劳德技巧，关于如何说不，是其中非常重要的一个因素，因为有很多事情向你袭来，而且很有趣，很诱人，很难拒绝，你意识到，我到底为什么要这样做？
I can actually control where I spend time and why did I say yes to this?
我实际上可以控制我把时间花在哪里，为什么我同意这个？
Wes Kao: I actually credit you with helping me come to this realization.
Wes Kao：实际上，我要感谢你帮助我实现了这一目标。
I mentioned you on a podcast the other day about this because, do you remember when Maven was launching an important feature, I think it was our marketplace or something, and I had asked you if you wanted to go on Clubhouse to be part of the launch?
前几天我在播客上提到过你，因为，你还记得 Maven 推出一项重要功能时，我认为这是我们的市场或其他什么，我问你是否愿意加入 Clubhouse 来参与发布？
Lenny Rachitsky: I remember that, but I am sure I said no.
Lenny Rachitsky：我记得，但我确信我拒绝了。
Wes Kao: Okay, yeah.
高伟雄：好的，是的。
You said no. You said no. And I was like, "Wow.
你说不。你说不。我当时想，“哇。
Out of curiosity, what's the thought behind it?" And you said, I'm going to bastardize this, you could correct me, but you essentially said, "I don't really like doing live public speaking type things and I've been fortunate enough to build a career where I can write, I do my podcasts, and work only on the part that I love doing.
出于好奇，这背后的想法是什么？”你说，我要搞砸这个，你可以纠正我，但你本质上是说，“我真的不喜欢做现场公开演讲之类的事情，我很幸运能够建立一个我可以写作、做播客的职业，并且只做我喜欢做的事情。
And so I'm okay saying no to these other really interesting opportunities." And I remember at that time thinking it was so groundbreaking that you could say no to something that was legitimately a cool opportunity and be really confident about it because it wasn't your core competency.
所以我可以拒绝这些其他真正有趣的机会。”我记得当时我认为它是如此具有开创性，以至于你可以对一个很酷的机会说不，并对它充满信心，因为它不是你的核心能力。
It wasn't the thing you are best at.
这不是你最擅长的事情。
And I've really kept that in mind when opportunities come my way of, am I excited about this?
当机会降临时，我真的牢记这一点，我对此感到兴奋吗？
Is this what I'm really good at?
这是我真正擅长的吗？
Can I shine in this setting?
我能在这样的环境下发光吗？
Because when you are solo, you get to choose the settings that you want to be in.
因为当你独奏时，你可以选择你想要的设置。
Lenny Rachitsky: That's such a cool story.
Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个很酷的故事。
I don't exactly remember that, but I am zero surprised at what I said.
我不太记得了，但我对我所说的话感到零惊讶。
And the way I put it now, when folks invite me to stuff like this is I just find the ROI on my time is so not worth doing a talk, doing a fireside thing, doing another podcast.
用我现在的话说，当人们邀请我做这样的事情时，我只是发现我的时间的投资回报率不值得做一次演讲，做一个炉边的事情，做另一个播客。
It's just like, if I can spend more time on this newsletter than the podcast, the leverage is so much higher than just doing a talk because that takes so much time.
就像，如果我能花更多的时间在这份时事通讯上而不是在播客上，那么影响力就比仅仅做演讲要高得多，因为这需要花费很多时间。
So I just have this template now that basically says what I sent you, that is, that it helps.
所以我现在有了这个模板，基本上说明了我发送给您的内容，也就是说，它有帮助。
But it's tough.
但这很难。
It's so hard to say no. Sometimes these opportunities are so interesting and the person is like, "Wait, what?"
很难说不。有时这些机会非常有趣，人们会说，“等等，什么？”
Lenny Rachitsky: Because I don't think the people asking you for stuff know that I'm getting 10 of them a day, and they're like, "Oh, he said no to my talk.
Lenny Rachitsky：因为我认为向你要东西的人不知道我每天会收到 10 个东西，他们会说，“哦，他拒绝了我的演讲。
He doesn't want to be on my podcast.
他不想出现在我的播客上。
What a jerk." That's what I think.
真是个混蛋。”我就是这么认为的。
I don't know if that's what they think.
我不知道他们是不是这么想的。
But anyway.
但无论如何。
Okay, that's great.
好的，太好了。
Yes, and I think I just had a post about reaching a million subscribers to the newsletter, and actually had this image of the Ikigai concept, which is exactly what you just described, which is you want to try to find the thing that you love doing, that people value, and that you can make money doing.
是的，我想我刚刚发表了一篇关于达到 100 万订阅者的时事通讯的文章，实际上有这样一个 Ikigai 概念的形象，这正是你刚才所描述的，即你想要尝试找到你喜欢做的事情，人们重视的事情，并且你可以通过做来赚钱。
That's the dream.
这就是梦想。
And that's exactly what you have done as well.
这也正是你所做的。
So thank you for being here, Wes.
谢谢你来到这里，韦斯。
I actually think we delivered on what I thought we would.
事实上，我认为我们实现了我的预期。
I think this is going to be one of the most highest leverage conversations we've had.
我认为这将是我们进行过的影响力最大的对话之一。
Lenny Rachitsky: So two final questions.
Lenny Rachitsky：最后两个问题。
Where can folks find your course?
人们在哪里可以找到您的课程？
I know you also do executive coaching.
我知道您也从事高管培训。
Where can folks learn more?
人们可以在哪里了解更多信息？
And final question is just, how can folks be useful to you, Wes?
最后一个问题是，人们如何对你有用，韦斯？
Wes Kao: You can find out more at weskao.com.
Wes Kao：您可以访问 weskao.com 了解更多信息。
I linked my course to my coaching from my main page.
我从我的主页将我的课程链接到我的辅导。
I also post on LinkedIn as well, so you can follow me there.
我也在 LinkedIn 上发帖，因此您可以在那里关注我。
And I'm always looking to meet fellow operators who out about communication.
我一直在寻找与其他运营商进行交流的机会。
So if you put any of these principles into practice, I would love to hear about it.
因此，如果您将这些原则中的任何一个付诸实践，我很想听听。
Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
We'll do that in the comments.
我们将在评论中做到这一点。
They can DM you.
他们可以私信你。
I don't know, what's the best way to reach you on the website or Twitter?
我不知道在网站或 Twitter 上联系您的最佳方式是什么？
Wes Kao: Website, email, LinkedIn, DM me.
Wes Kao：网站、电子邮件、LinkedIn、私信我。
Lenny Rachitsky: There we go.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：我们开始吧。
There we go.
我们开始吧。
Wes, thank you so much for being here.
韦斯，非常感谢你来到这里。
Wes Kao: Yeah, thank you so much, Lenny.
Wes Kao：是的，非常感谢你，Lenny。
Lenny Rachitsky: Thank you so much for listening.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：非常感谢您的聆听。
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如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。
Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.
另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。
You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.
您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。
See you in the next episode.
下一集见。