A framework for PM skill development | Vikrama Dhiman (Gojek)

PM 技能开发框架 |维克拉玛·迪曼 (Gojek)

2024-05-12 · Lenny's Podcast · 原文

Lenny Rachitsky: Your name has come up more times than almost any other product person when I ask people for their favorite product leaders in Asia.

Lenny Rachitsky：当我向人们询问他们最喜欢的亚洲产品领导者时，你的名字出现的次数几乎比任何其他产品人员都多。

Vikrama Dhiman: I created a career growth framework for product managers, which comprises of three things.

Vikrama Dhiman：我为产品经理创建了一个职业发展框架，其中包括三部分。

What you produce, what you bring to the table, and what's your operating model.

你生产什么，你带来什么，以及你的运营模式是什么。

Lenny Rachitsky: Your advice is early in your career, focus on just getting stuff out and done.

Lenny Rachitsky：你的建议是在你职业生涯的早期，专注于把事情做好。

Vikrama Dhiman: Can you show me your last PRD?

Vikrama Dhiman：你能给我看看你的最后一个 PRD 吗？

Can you show me the last product note that you sent?

您能给我看一下您发送的最后一份产品说明吗？

Can you show me the product strategy doc?

你能给我看一下产品策略文档吗？

You must have that impact through the artifacts that you work on.

您必须通过您所处理的工件来产生这种影响。

Lenny Rachitsky: I'm curious what you found most impedes people's career growth.

Lenny Rachitsky：我很好奇您发现什么最阻碍人们的职业发展。

Vikrama Dhiman: How you view change, whether you are focusing on things you control, and third is how you see yourself.

Vikrama Dhiman：你如何看待变化，你是否专注于你控制的事情，第三是你如何看待自己。

The moment you are able to correct those stories, you may be back on the growth path again.

当你能够纠正这些故事的那一刻，你可能会再次回到成长的道路上。

Lenny Rachitsky: Today, my guest is Vikrama Dhiman.

Lenny Rachitsky：今天，我的客人是 Vikrama Dhiman。

Vikrama heads all things product at Gojek, including product management, design, program management, research and insights with teams across India, Singapore and Indonesia.

Vikrama 负责 Gojek 的所有产品工作，包括产品管理、设计、项目管理、研究和与印度、新加坡和印度尼西亚团队的见解。

He has previously worked at companies like Directi, Airtel, MakeMyTrip and WizIQ and is among the most well-known product leaders in Asia.

他曾在 Directi、Airtel、MakeMyTrip 和 WizIQ 等公司工作过，是亚洲最著名的产品领导者之一。

When I asked people who their favorite product leader is in Asia, Vikrama's name has come up almost more than anyone else's.

当我问人们最喜欢的亚洲产品领导者是谁时，Vikrama 的名字出现的次数几乎比其他任何人都多。

We chat about how to move into product management, how to be a great product manager, how product managers often shoot themselves in the foot, and so much more.

我们讨论如何进入产品管理、如何成为一名优秀的产品经理、产品经理如何经常搬起石头砸自己的脚等等。

With that, I bring you Vikrama Dhiman after a short word from our sponsors.

在我们的赞助商简短发言后，我为您带来了 Vikrama Dhiman。

And if you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube.

如果您喜欢这个播客，请不要忘记订阅并在您最喜欢的播客应用程序或 YouTube 中关注它。

It's the best way to avoid missing future episodes and it helps the podcast tremendously.

这是避免错过未来剧集的最佳方式，并且对播客有很大帮助。

Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by Uizard, empowering product leaders to ideate and iterate faster than ever before with the power of AI.

Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 Uizard 为您带来，使产品领导者能够利用人工智能的力量比以往更快地构思和迭代。

As a product manager, I often spend hours taking screenshots and then annotating them with feedback for my team.

作为产品经理，我经常花几个小时截取屏幕截图，然后为我的团队提供反馈注释。

With Uizard, I can simply upload my screenshot and Uizard's AI will turn them into a fully editable UI design that I can then take, make tweaks to, and then share with my teams in minutes.

使用 Uizard，我可以简单地上传我的屏幕截图，Uizard 的 AI 会将它们转换为完全可编辑的 UI 设计，然后我可以对其进行调整，然后在几分钟内与我的团队共享。

And when I want to get really creative and explore totally new ways to improve our product experience, I can use Uizard's AI to generate new design concepts from simple text prompts and turn them into interactive prototypes effortlessly.

当我想要发挥真正的创造力并探索全新的方法来改善我们的产品体验时，我可以使用 Uizard 的人工智能从简单的文本提示中生成新的设计概念，并轻松地将它们转变为交互式原型。

There's a reason that over 2.6 million people have trusted Uizard to accelerate every phase of their product life cycle and speed up time to market.

超过 260 万人信任 Uizard 来加速其产品生命周期的每个阶段并加快上市时间，这是有原因的。

Developers can even export UI components to React and CSS to speed up their development.

开发人员甚至可以将 UI 组件导出到 React 和 CSS 以加快开发速度。

Uizard's drag and drop editor is super easy to use and you can collaborate in real time with your entire team.

Uizard 的拖放编辑器非常易于使用，您可以与整个团队实时协作。

Even your CEO and customer service teams can contribute.

甚至您的首席执行官和客户服务团队也可以做出贡献。

Lenny Rachitsky: Unlock all of Uizard's game-changing AI-powered features and more with 25% off Uizard's Pro annual plan.

Lenny Rachitsky：解锁 Uizard 的所有改变游戏规则的人工智能功能以及更多功能，并享受 Uizard Pro 年度计划 25% 的折扣。

Visit U-I-Z-A-R-D.io/lenny and use code Lenny to check out today.

请访问 U-I-Z-A-R-D.io/lenny 并使用代码 Lenny 立即查看。

That's U-I-Z-A-R-D.io/lenny.

那是 U-I-Z-A-R-D.io/lenny。

This episode is brought to you by Webflow.

本集由 Webflow 为您带来。

We're all friends here, so let's be real for a second.

我们都是这里的朋友，所以让我们现实一点吧。

We all know that your website shouldn't be a static asset, it should be a dynamic part of your strategy that drives conversions.

我们都知道您的网站不应该是静态资产，它应该是推动转化的策略的动态部分。

That's business 101.

那是商业101。

But here's a number for you.

但这是给你的一个数字。

54% of leaders say web updates take too long, that's over half of you listening right now.

54% 的领导者表示网络更新时间太长，超过一半的人现在正在倾听。

That's where Webflow comes in.

这就是 Webflow 的用武之地。

Their visual-first platform allows you to build, launch, and optimize web pages fast.

他们的视觉优先平台允许您快速构建、启动和优化网页。

That means you can set ambitious business goals and your site can rise to the challenge.

这意味着您可以设定雄心勃勃的业务目标，并且您的网站可以应对挑战。

Learn how teams like Dropbox, Ideo and Orangetheory trust Webflow to achieve their most ambitious goals today at webflow.com.

立即访问 webflow.com 了解 Dropbox、Ideo 和 Orangetheory 等团队如何信任 Webflow 来实现他们最雄心勃勃的目标。

Lenny Rachitsky: Vikrama, thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast.

Lenny Rachitsky：Vikrama，非常感谢您来到这里，欢迎来到播客。

Vikrama Dhiman: Thank you for inviting me, Lenny.

Vikrama Dhiman：谢谢你邀请我，莱尼。

I'm very excited to be here.

我很高兴来到这里。

Lenny Rachitsky: So as you know and hopefully as listeners know, I'm on this quest to meet the most insightful product leaders from all over the world and your name has come up more times than almost any other product person when I ask people for their favorite product leaders in Asia.

Lenny Rachitsky：正如你所知，希望听众也知道，我正在寻找来自世界各地最有洞察力的产品领导者，当我向人们询问他们最喜欢的亚洲产品领导者时，你的名字出现的次数几乎比任何其他产品人员都多。

And you're also the third guest from Gojek, so there's definitely something in the water over there and I want to talk about that.

你也是 Gojek 的第三位客人，所以那边的水里肯定有东西，我想谈谈这个。

To just dive right in, you have a very strong reputation for building incredibly strong product talent and also design talent, and also helping people transition from other roles into product management, which a lot of people listening to this podcast dream to do.

简而言之，您在培养令人难以置信的强大产品人才和设计人才方面享有很高的声誉，并帮助人们从其他角色过渡到产品管理，这是很多听这个播客的人梦想做的事情。

So I'm going to ask a bunch of questions around this area.

所以我将围绕这个领域提出一系列问题。

How does that sound?

听起来怎么样？

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

First question is just when you think back to the people that have done best in the product management role and have had a rapid career rise, what are some of the most common traits or behaviors or habits that you find in these people?

第一个问题是，当你回想那些在产品管理岗位上表现最好并且职业生涯迅速崛起的人时，你在这些人身上发现了哪些最常见的特征、行为或习惯？

Vikrama Dhiman: Over the last decade and a half, I've had the opportunity to work with some really strong product managers, learn from strong product managers, and some of them have had rapid career growth.

Vikrama Dhiman：在过去的十五年里，我有机会与一些非常强大的产品经理一起工作，向强大的产品经理学习，其中一些人获得了快速的职业发展。

When I was younger and I was starting off, I used to think it's all about the product.

当我年轻的时候，我刚开始的时候，我曾经认为一切都与产品有关。

If you've got a really cool product to work on, your growth's guaranteed.

如果您有一个非常酷的产品可供开发，那么您的成长就有保证。

And if you got really a product which no one cares about or a stream which no one cares about, then your growth is going to be slightly slower.

如果你真的得到了一个没人关心的产品或者一个没人关心的流，那么你的增长会稍微慢一些。

But as I started seeing more and more product managers at their craft, I saw that working on a cool product area is not the only thing.

但当我开始看到越来越多的产品经理掌握他们的技能时，我发现在很酷的产品领域工作并不是唯一的事情。

In fact, sometimes some product managers would come back and complain that despite their product doing really well, they've not really grown.

事实上，有时一些产品经理会回来抱怨，尽管他们的产品做得很好，但他们并没有真正成长。

Vikrama Dhiman: And while some other product managers whose product didn't have the impact really grew.

Vikrama Dhiman：虽然其他一些产品经理的产品没有产生真正的影响力，但他们却实现了增长。

And as I started looking at it and as I started making notes, as I started talking to other product leaders, what I discovered was that the really strong product managers who were also growing in their careers did some things differently.

当我开始研究它并开始做笔记时，当我开始与其他产品负责人交谈时，我发现，那些在职业生涯中不断成长的真正强大的产品经理会做一些不同的事情。

And based on that, I created a career growth framework for product managers, which comprises of three things, and I call it three W's.

在此基础上，我为产品经理创建了一个职业发展框架，其中包括三件事，我称之为三个W。

So what you produce, what you bring to the table, and what's your operating model?

那么你生产什么，带来什么，以及你的运营模式是什么？

The really strong product managers are good at usually two of the three things.

真正强大的产品经理通常擅长三件事中的两件事。

The ones who rise and when they are rising, they are performing well on all the three access.

那些崛起的人以及当他们崛起时，他们在所有三个方面都表现良好。

So if you would like, let's talk a little bit more about each one of these W's.

因此，如果您愿意，我们可以详细讨论一下这些 W 中的每一个。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, I would love to.

Lenny Rachitsky：是的，我很乐意。

I love that you put the word what at the top and that makes it the three W's, which is clever because I find even if the acronym is not necessary, it's really helpful to help people remember so I totally respect what you did there.

我喜欢你把“什么”这个词放在顶部，这使它成为三个 W，这很聪明，因为我发现即使缩写词不是必需的，它也有助于帮助人们记住，所以我完全尊重你在那里所做的事情。

So the three is what you produce, what you bring to the table and what your operating model is.

所以这三者就是你生产什么、你带来什么以及你的运营模式是什么。

Is that right?

是这样吗？

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, cool.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的，酷。

Yeah, let's talk about these.

是的，我们来谈谈这些。

Vikrama Dhiman: So what you produce, a lot of people index on the impact while and they start thinking about goals, they start thinking about direction and they start thinking about strategy.

Vikrama Dhiman：因此，很多人都会对你所产生的影响进行索引，同时他们开始考虑目标，他们开始考虑方向，他们开始考虑策略。

While it is important to know at what stage of the career you are and what kind of a product that you are working on, the very first thing that anyone, when you're starting off, produces is outputs, okay?

虽然了解您处于职业生涯的哪个阶段以及您正在开发什么类型的产品很重要，但是当您开始时，任何人产生的第一件事就是输出，好吗？

The output can be launching a product, it can be analyzing and running an experiment, and it could even be just being a part of the team and contributing to a go-to market strategy.

产出可以是推出产品，可以是分析和运行实验，甚至可以只是成为团队的一部分并为进入市场策略做出贡献。

So focus on that output significantly.

因此，请重点关注该输出。

As you get comfortable with output and you start getting comfortable with working with different stakeholders, you start controlling what outputs are necessary, which is when you move to the outcomes.

当您熟悉输出并开始习惯与不同利益相关者合作时，您就开始控制哪些输出是必要的，这就是您转向结果的时候。

Outcomes are product areas, goals that you can own and or collaborate with other stakeholders on.

结果是您可以拥有和/或与其他利益相关者合作的产品领域、目标。

Vikrama Dhiman: And when you start figuring out which outcomes are necessary, that is when you move to the leadership and directional areas.

Vikrama Dhiman：当你开始弄清楚哪些结果是必要的时，那就是你转向领导和方向领域的时候。

The mistake that I see a lot of product managers make is they start operating in either output or outcomes.

我看到很多产品经理犯的错误是他们开始以产出或结果来运作。

And when you are transitioning to outcomes, it's very important that you continue to still hone your craft on outputs.

当你转向结果时，继续磨练你的输出技巧是非常重要的。

For instance, do you just give up on the go-to-market strategy or do you start making product nodes which are then picked up by marketing people and are able to be used to create that go-to-market strategy?

例如，您是放弃进入市场策略还是开始制作产品节点，然后由营销人员选择并能够用于创建进入市场策略？

You always, always have to have the output and outcome even when you're moving up the so-called career management ladder.

即使你在所谓的职业管理阶梯上晋升，你也总是、总是必须有产出和结果。

So that is very, very critical that as you are producing, even when you are at the senior most levels, don't forget your IC roots, don't forget the IC component.

因此，非常非常重要的是，当您进行制作时，即使您处于最高级别，也不要忘记您的 IC 根源，不要忘记 IC 组件。

And sometimes it is necessary to just pull up your sleeves and go back and keep working on those things.

有时有必要挽起袖子，回去继续做这些事情。

That also gives you a lot of creds with others in the team as well.

这也让你在团队中的其他人中获得了很多信誉。

Lenny Rachitsky: So highlighting one insight here is that a lot of advice you hear about how to do well in your career, which you pointed out at the beginning here, is it's not just not immediately drive impact.

Lenny Rachitsky：因此，在这里强调一个见解是，您听到的很多关于如何在职业生涯中取得好成绩的建议，正如您在开头所指出的，这不仅仅是不能立即产生影响。

That's not necessarily what you need to obsess over, which is actually what I recommend to people is just find ways to have impact.

这不一定是你需要关注的，实际上我向人们建议的就是找到产生影响的方法。

So this is really interesting.

所以这真的很有趣。

Your advice is early in your career, focus on just getting stuff out and done.

你的建议是在你职业生涯的早期，专注于把事情做好。

Don't so obsess with the impact.

不要太执着于影响。

Can you talk more about just what, when you say output, what are you describing there?

你能多谈谈什么，当你说输出时，你在描述什么？

Is it just ship products and be helpful and produce something?

它只是运送产品并提供帮助并生产一些东西吗？

Vikrama Dhiman: Absolutely.

维克拉玛·迪曼：当然。

So outputs is shipping products, but it also comes in smaller things.

所以输出是运输产品，但它也有较小的东西。

For instance, if you are sourcing content for your homepage, what are the different avenues that you can source content from?

例如，如果您正在为主页采购内容，您可以通过哪些不同的途径来采购内容？

What is the easiest to source?

最容易获得的来源是什么？

What is the most difficult to source?

最难找货源的是什么？

Just ranking it all in that order goes a long way.

仅按顺序排列所有内容就大有帮助。

And one of the product managers actually did that yesterday and I went, wow, it just made my life so much simpler.

一位产品经理昨天确实做到了这一点，我心想，哇，这让我的生活变得简单多了。

And not just my life but so many other people's lives so much simpler, and we were able to take that specific output and use it as part of our overall strategy.

不仅是我的生活，还有很多其他人的生活都变得更加简单，我们能够获取特定的输出并将其用作我们整体战略的一部分。

If that PM would have obsessed about the overall content strategy, overall how we are going to do it versus just how we are going to be sourcing it, they would have indexed on something bigger and maybe would have not even been able to make that impact.

如果那个 PM 痴迷于整体内容策略，整体上我们将如何做，而不是我们将如何采购它，他们就会索引更大的东西，甚至可能无法产生这种影响。

But now, they were able to show something which was a small part, which was an output, but it fell into the overall outcome.

但现在，他们能够展示出一些东西，这是一个很小的部分，这是一个输出，但是它落入了整体的结果。

Lenny Rachitsky: The way I think about what you're describing, which I actually 100% agree with, is when you're starting out in your careers, execution is where you need to deliver.

Lenny Rachitsky：我对你所描述的想法的看法是，当你开始职业生涯时，执行力是你需要交付的地方，实际上我百分百同意。

People just want you to get stuff done when you're just starting out.

人们只是希望你在刚开始时就完成工作。

It's not like help us define our strategy and vision for the next three years.

这不像帮助我们定义未来三年的战略和愿景。

We just have stuff we need done.

我们只是需要完成一些事情。

Can you help us get it done?

你能帮助我们完成它吗？

Well, yes.

嗯，是的。

And then essentially the advice is as you get more senior, you'll have more opportunity to think about strategy and what to build versus just how to build it and actually execute on it.

基本上，建议是，随着你的职位越来越高，你将有更多的机会思考战略以及要构建什么，而不是如何构建它并实际执行它。

Vikrama Dhiman: Absolutely.

维克拉玛·迪曼：当然。

So focus on outputs at the start of your careers and don't forget outputs even when you grow in your career.

因此，在职业生涯之初就关注产出，即使在职业生涯中成长也不要忘记产出。

Lenny Rachitsky: So along those lines, just to close the thread on this idea, it's still helpful if you work on something that does have impact that matters, right?

Lenny Rachitsky：所以，按照这些思路，只是为了结束这个想法，如果你致力于一些确实具有重要影响的事情，它仍然会有所帮助，对吧？

How important is that?

这有多重要？

And you said that you've seen successful product managers work on things that aren't as impactful and still do really well, but I guess would your advice be tried be in a place that is going to drive more impact versus it's not actually that important in the early career?

你说你见过成功的产品经理所做的工作虽然没有那么有影响力，但仍然做得很好，但我想你的建议是否会在一个能够产生更大影响力的地方尝试，而不是在早期职业生涯中实际上并不那么重要？

Vikrama Dhiman: So I'll give you my example.

Vikrama Dhiman：所以我给你举个例子。

In one of my previous roles, there were two product areas that were important for the organization.

在我之前的职位之一中，有两个产品领域对组织很重要。

My product area ended up being the center and focus of the organization, yet the product manager who was chosen to lead the area when it became big wasn't me.

我的产品领域最终成为组织的中心和焦点，但当该领域规模扩大时，被选为领导该领域的产品经理却不是我。

It was someone else.

是别人。

At that time, I really felt very bad that okay, why did that happen?

当时我心里真的很难过，好吧，为什么会这样呢？

But now when I look back, I can see why that happened because that product manager was so much better at the overall craft of output, yet when they were focusing on outcome, we're not forgetting the output as well.

但现在当我回头看时，我可以明白为什么会发生这种情况，因为产品经理在整体输出工艺方面做得更好，但当他们专注于结果时，我们也没有忘记输出。

So they were just better at me on launching products, they were better at me on working with design, in producing design artwork, and they were definitely better than me in running the experiments as well.

所以他们只是在推出产品方面更擅长我，在设计工作、制作设计艺术品方面更擅长我，而且在进行实验方面他们也绝对比我更好。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love that.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢这个。

Yeah, basically when you're just starting out, just execute well, execute smoothly, ship things on time.

是的，基本上当你刚开始的时候，只要执行得好，执行顺利，按时交付。

I'm going to say a few things, but I'm curious what else comes to mind here of just what does good output look like?

我要说一些事情，但我很好奇，关于好的输出是什么样子，我还会想到什么？

Is it do things that are helpful to your team and manager, ship things on time, bug-free, have a clean road map, everyone's aligned behind, deadlines, things like that.

是不是做一些对你的团队和经理有帮助的事情，按时发货，没有错误，有一个干净的路线图，每个人都在后面协调，最后期限，诸如此类的事情。

I guess what else along those lines should people be like, "Okay, here's what I should be doing to have good outputs?"

我想人们还应该这样说：“好吧，这就是我应该做的事情才能获得好的输出？”

Vikrama Dhiman: Some of the things that I think are useful.

Vikrama Dhiman：一些我认为有用的东西。

So first, what's output?

那么首先，输出是什么？

Output is something which is very tangibly defined, which doesn't take too much of your time, effort, and energy to visualize and think and strategize over and you are able to quickly get moving on.

输出是一种非常明确的定义，不需要花费太多的时间、精力和精力来想象、思考和制定战略，你就能快速地继续前进。

Go and ask your product leader, go and ask other leaders on what are the areas they are blocked on.

去询问你的产品负责人，去询问其他负责人，他们被封锁的领域是什么。

Sometimes they will be blocked on, "Hey, I need to prepare this brief for this particular summit", "I need to prepare this particular slide for a leadership review", "I need to prepare a review, I need to prepare a review which has to be done with the legal." You can volunteer and definitely own and deliver the first drafts of those even if the final draft is not something that you own.

有时他们会被阻止，“嘿，我需要为这次特定的峰会准备这份简报”，“我需要为领导层审查准备这张特定的幻灯片”，“我需要准备一份审查，我需要准备一份必须通过法律来完成的审查。”即使最终草案不属于您，您也可以自愿拥有并交付这些初稿。

That's a simple example of an output, which I feel a lot of people miss because they want to be focusing on the bigger strategic pieces.

这是一个简单的输出示例，我觉得很多人都错过了它，因为他们想专注于更大的战略部分。

Lenny Rachitsky: It's basically be useful.

Lenny Rachitsky：基本上是有用的。

That's the way I always like to talk about this, just like your job as a PM is be useful, make your team more effective, help your company be more successful.

这就是我总是喜欢谈论这个问题的方式，就像你作为 PM 的工作是有用的，让你的团队更高效，帮助你的公司更成功。

Just find ways to be useful to everyone around you.

只要找到对你周围的每个人有用的方法即可。

Vikrama Dhiman: Absolutely.

维克拉玛·迪曼：当然。

And be useful in doing the small things which make an impact and also contribute to your learning versus being useful in areas which you think the mini CEO should be working on.

做一些能产生影响并有助于你学习的小事，而不是在你认为迷你首席执行官应该从事的领域发挥作用。

Lenny Rachitsky: Right.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：对。

There's all this talk about being an empowered product manager, building empowered product teams.

所有这些都在谈论如何成为一名授权的产品经理，建立授权的产品团队。

I think there's an important nuance.

我认为有一个重要的细微差别。

When you're just starting out, you haven't earned the right to inform strategy and vision people.

当你刚刚起步时，你还没有获得向战略和愿景人员提供信息的权利。

Why would people follow you at this point?

为什么人们会在这个时候关注你？

We just need to get stuff done, so that comes over time.

我们只需要完成工作，随着时间的推移就会实现。

Vikrama Dhiman: Absolutely.

维克拉玛·迪曼：当然。

And it's not just when you are starting off or when you are young.

这不仅仅是在你刚刚起步或年轻的时候。

Even with if you are senior and you're starting off with a new team, even if you're starting with a new company, you need to have that mindset.

即使你是资深人士并且要从一个新团队开始，即使你要从一家新公司开始，你也需要有这种心态。

And sometimes you will not know the best.

有时你不会知道最好的。

And we'll talk more about how to, what is your operating model, which is how you work with others.

我们将更多地讨论如何做、您的运营模式是什么、您与他人合作的方式。

It's a very, very important thing for you to know that you are one part of the cog wheel, you're not the entire wheel yourself.

对你来说，知道你是齿轮的一部分，而不是整个轮子，这是一件非常非常重要的事情。

And a lot of the folklore around product managers can make you confused, especially when you're starting off in your career.

许多关于产品经理的民间传说可能会让你感到困惑，尤其是当你刚刚开始职业生涯时。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love it.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢它。

Okay, let's keep going.

好吧，我们继续吧。

Number two.

第二。

Vikrama Dhiman: Number two is what you bring to the table.

Vikrama Dhiman：第二是你要带来什么。

Now, I think how I describe that is what is your impact on impact?

现在，我想我所描述的就是你对影响力的影响是什么？

So the first access is impact, but you also need to have an impact on impact.

所以第一个访问是影响力，但你也需要对影响力产生影响。

And this is what I had missed a lot in my early career, that you put the coolest product areas, your product area is successful and that automatically guarantees your growth.

这就是我在早期职业生涯中错过的很多东西，你把最酷的产品领域放在其中，你的产品领域是成功的，这会自动保证你的成长。

It doesn't.

事实并非如此。

You have to also show that yes, you were a useful contributor to having that particular impact.

您还必须证明，是的，您是产生这种特殊影响的有用贡献者。

The simplest thing on this is that is your PRD quality good enough?

最简单的就是你的PRD质量够好吗？

Are you writing that the draft notes that go and circulate to the care teams, to the marketing teams and so on?

您是否正在写草稿注释并分发给护理团队、营销团队等？

Are you making sure that you are deriving from the strategy that has been shaped or you're constantly just pushing back on the strategy?

您是否确保自己是根据已制定的战略制定的，还是不断地推翻该战略？

Similarly, you also how you are drafting the north stars, how you are working on the experiments, how you're working on the data, how you're working on the metrics.

同样，您还可以了解如何绘制北极星，如何进行实验，如何处理数据，如何处理指标。

Vikrama Dhiman: All these things take time, effort, and energy.

Vikrama Dhiman：所有这些事情都需要时间、努力和精力。

And I know there is some literature and there are some operating models where people are working only at strategy levels while all of these execution of these artifacts is being done by some other people.

我知道有一些文献和一些操作模型，人们只在战略层面上工作，而这些工件的所有这些执行都是由其他人完成的。

I don't think, especially when you are starting off, that's a very, very good thing.

我不认为，特别是当你刚开始时，这是一件非常非常好的事情。

Even when you are mid-senior, I don't think that's a very, very good thing.

即使你是中高级，我也不认为这是一件非常非常好的事情。

You have to have to be able to produce these artifacts which are product artifacts.

您必须能够生产这些工件，即产品工件。

Even if there are people in strategy creating their artifacts, even if design is coming up with a design brief, you need to have a cohesive product strategy or product PRD and work backwards from PRD and product knows yourself.

即使有人在战略中创建他们的工件，即使设计提出了设计概要，您也需要有一个有凝聚力的产品战略或产品 PRD，并从 PRD 逆向工作，产品了解自己。

These things are important to show you are progressing on four pillars, which is data and metrics, design and research, technology skills, and strategy.

这些事情很重要，可以表明你在四个支柱上取得进展，即数据和指标、设计和研究、技术技能和战略。

Vikrama Dhiman: Product managers constantly are evaluated on this when you interview, but you also have to demonstrate these on the jobs.

Vikrama Dhiman：当你面试时，产品经理不断地受到评估，但你也必须在工作中展示这些。

And the best way to demonstrate these is through the artifacts, through the notes that you are sending.

展示这些的最好方法是通过工件，通过您发送的注释。

So you must have that impact to impact through the artifacts that you work on.

因此，您必须具有这种影响力才能通过您所处理的工件产生影响。

For a lot of product managers, when I ask, "Hey, I was working on this very impactful area.

对于很多产品经理来说，当我问：“嘿，我正在研究这个非常有影响力的领域。

I'm not able to have the impact on my career, what is missing?" And when I go and ask, "Can you show me your last PRD?

我无法对我的职业生涯产生影响，缺少什么？”当我走过去问：“你能给我看看你的最后一个 PRD 吗？

Can you show me the last product note that you sent?

您能给我看一下您发送的最后一份产品说明吗？

Can you show me the product strategy doc that you have or collaborated on?

您能向我展示您拥有或合作编写的产品策略文档吗？

Can you show me the brief that you sent to the design team on the problems and the ranking of those problems?" Usually, you'll find something or the other missing.

您能否向我展示您发送给设计团队的有关问题的摘要以及这些问题的排名？”通常，您会发现某些东西丢失了。

Vikrama Dhiman: In cases that those are bad, you will find that the pre-iteration planning, pre-sprint plannings are not running properly.

Vikrama Dhiman：如果这些情况不好，你会发现迭代前计划、冲刺前计划无法正常运行。

You will find that the Jira storyboards are very empty and there's just a title in the subject and nothing gets described and so on.

您会发现 Jira 故事板非常空，主题中只有一个标题，没有任何描述，等等。

So you'll miss all these pieces.

所以你会错过所有这些作品。

So these are the things which you bring to the table and it's very, very important that you work on these aspects as well.

因此，这些都是您要带到桌面上的事情，并且在这些方面开展工作也非常非常重要。

Finally, we have what's your operating model, which I feel is the most important thing which you have to have to focus if you are going from mid-senior to senior level.

最后，我们有一个什么是你的运营模式，我觉得这是你从中高级到高级时必须关注的最重要的事情。

This is essentially about communication, collaboration, organizational skills and community skills.

这本质上是关于沟通、协作、组织技能和社区技能。

Vikrama Dhiman: And across product managers, again, because of the folklore of mini CEO and others, I see that a lot of people get carried away in the way they operate as product managers with other stakeholders.

Vikrama Dhiman：对于产品经理来说，由于迷你首席执行官和其他人的民间传说，我发现很多人在作为产品经理与其他利益相关者的运作方式中迷失了方向。

There are three tenets that I define in working well as a product manager with others.

作为一名产品经理，我定义了与他人良好合作的三个原则。

Number one is raise difficult issues without being difficult to work with.

第一是提出困难的问题而不是难以合作。

Bring out important topics without drawing importance to yourself.

提出重要的话题，但不要强调自己的重要性。

And finally, you are in charge of getting the decisions made and not making all the decisions yourself.

最后，你负责做出决定，而不是自己做出所有决定。

I think as long as you follow these three tenets, you will have a successful relationship across stakeholders.

我认为只要遵循这三个原则，您就会在利益相关者之间建立成功的关系。

These three tenets are easy to say, but they become very, very hard to embody and display on a day-to-day basis.

这三个原则说起来很容易，但在日常生活中却变得非常非常难以体现和展示。

But this is essentially going to be your struggle no matter at what level of product management you are operating at in your career or within your company.

但这本质上将是你的斗争，无论你在职业生涯中或在公司内处于哪个级别的产品管理。

Lenny Rachitsky: First of all, can you just repeat them?

Lenny Rachitsky：首先，你能重复一遍吗？

Because I think this is...

因为我认为这是...

Essentially, it's like a mantra that PMs can think back to of, "Am I doing these things?"

从本质上讲，这就像 PM 可以回想的一句口头禅：“我在做这些事情吗？”

Vikrama Dhiman: So the three things which are very important for product managers to work with others and other stakeholders are raise difficult issues without being difficult to work with, bring out important topics without drawing importance to yourself, and be able to get decisions made without having to make all the decisions yourself.

Vikrama Dhiman：因此，对于产品经理来说，与他人和其他利益相关者合作非常重要的三件事是：提出困难的问题而不使合作变得困难；提出重要的主题而不让自己变得重要；以及能够做出决策而不必自己做出所有决定。

Lenny Rachitsky: I like this list a lot.

Lenny Rachitsky：我非常喜欢这个列表。

It reminds me, there's this product leader I worked with who their team got pushed to do a bunch of stupid stuff.

And he realized later that, "Hey, it's actually my job to have pushed back on doing this stuff." He was the head of product for this business unit and he realized, "Oh, I see.

后来他意识到，“嘿，推迟做这件事实际上是我的工作。”他是该业务部门的产品主管，他意识到：“哦，我明白了。

That's actually what I should be doing now that I'm in this role." And you sometimes forget that one, you have that influence.

这实际上是我现在担任这个角色时应该做的事情。” And you sometimes forget that one, you have that influence.

And two, that's something you should be doing.

第二，这是你应该做的事情。

Vikrama Dhiman: Absolutely, absolutely.

维克拉玛·迪曼：绝对，绝对。

It's always within your control and it's always the things that are within your control that you should be controlling rather than focusing on the things that are not within your control and obsessing about those.

它总是在你的控制范围内，你应该控制那些在你控制范围内的事情，而不是专注于那些不在你控制范围内的事情并沉迷于这些事情。

Lenny Rachitsky: I'm so aligned with the way you think about all these things.

Lenny Rachitsky：我非常同意你思考所有这些事情的方式。

Coming back to the second actually, just to give people something they can do with this trait.

So the way I think about what you described, and correct me if I'm misinterpreting it, is there's a detail-oriented-ness, high quality-ness to the way that you should be crafting all the documents/artifacts you're creating, your one-pagers/PRDs, your roadmaps, your strategy docs, just like they should be really high quality.

因此，我对您所描述的内容的看法是，如果我误解了它，请纠正我，您应该以一种注重细节、高质量的方式来制作您正在创建的所有文档/工件、您的寻呼机/PRD、您的路线图、您的策略文档，就像它们应该是真正的高质量一样。

So along those lines, if you're an ICPM trying to get better at this stuff, how have you found is the best way to level up in these things?

因此，按照这些思路，如果您是一名 ICPM，试图在这方面做得更好，您如何找到在这些方面提升水平的最佳方法？

Is it working with your manager and getting feedback?

是否与您的经理合作并获取反馈？

Is it peers?

是同龄人吗？

What helps somebody get better at the quality and yeah, the quality of these documents?

Vikrama Dhiman: What you bring to the table is one of the most misunderstood attributes and aspects of product management.

On one end, you could get around and say, "Here is my PRD, here is my JIRA board, here are my stories, here is my pre-sprint planning or pre-iteration planning document" and go.

一方面，您可以四处走动并说：“这是我的 PRD，这是我的 JIRA 板，这是我的故事，这是我的冲刺前计划或迭代前计划文档”，然后就可以走了。

It's not just about the spread and the width of the things that you're doing, but it's also about the depth of those things as well.

Some product managers, what they bring to the table is arguments, what they bring to the table are debates, what they bring to the table are pushbacks, while others are able to channelize the questions, channelize the inputs, channelize the direction and convert that into strategic choices which can then shape discussions, which can then shape direction.

一些产品经理，他们带来的是争论，他们带来的是辩论，他们带来的是阻力，而其他产品经理则能够引导问题，引导输入，引导方向，并将其转化为战略选择，然后可以塑造讨论，然后可以塑造方向。

Be the latter and you will rise faster in your career.

成为后者，你的职业生涯会上升得更快。

Lenny Rachitsky: So you have these three buckets of what you produce, what you bring to the table, and what your operating model is, the three W's.

Lenny Rachitsky：所以你有这三个部分，即你生产的产品、你带来的产品以及你的运营模式，即三个 W。

So let try to summarize and see what I missed and then we'll move on.

So one is just focus on executing, getting things done that are helpful to your team, your company, your manager, and focus on just getting stuff out.

因此，我们只需专注于执行，完成对你的团队、你的公司、你的经理有帮助的事情，并专注于把东西拿出来。

Not so much in necessarily in strategy.

战略上不一定如此。

Even when you're a manager and a leader and a VP, just like you're still responsible for producing things, not just telling people and being wise.

即使你是经理、领导者和副总裁，就像你仍然负责生产东西一样，而不仅仅是告诉人们并保持明智。

Two, what you bring to the table, my takeaway here is produce high quality artifacts that raise the bar.

第二，你带来了什么，我的要点是生产出提高标准的高质量工件。

Lenny Rachitsky: The way I think about this is as a PM, you want to have this aura of I got this.

Lenny Rachitsky：我对此的看法是，作为一名产品经理，你希望拥有“我明白了”的光环。

People put something on your plate, you want to feel like Lenny's got this, I'm not going to have to worry.

It's going to be forgotten and I know it's going to be done well.

它会被遗忘，但我知道它会做得很好。

And then the third piece is this idea of an operating model.

第三部分是运营模式的想法。

Basically just make sure decisions are being made.

基本上只是确保做出决定。

It's not about you that you're pushing back on bad ideas.

你抵制坏想法并不是因为你。

Is there anything else I missed before we move on?

Vikrama Dhiman: No. I think the art of pushback is another important factor because if you're pushing back a lot and the way you are pushing back matters a lot as well.

Vikrama Dhiman：不。我认为反击的艺术是另一个重要因素，因为如果你反击很多，那么你反击的方式也很重要。

Just don't be someone who's seen as an obstacle and a hindrance and as someone who's just very difficult to work with, but rather see as someone who's able to actually add value to whatever your leader, your stakeholders, your product area demands and you are able to advance the product and the direction and execution forward.

只是不要成为一个被视为障碍和阻碍的人，或者一个很难共事的人，而应该被视为一个能够真正为你的领导者、你的利益相关者、你的产品领域的需求增加价值的人，并且你能够推进产品、方向和执行。

Once you do that, I think keeping that as the intent and ensuring that your team is getting unblocked and not getting to do work on anything which is stupid or is likely to be changed, then you've really got it.

一旦你做到了这一点，我认为保持这一意图并确保你的团队能够畅通无阻，并且不会做任何愚蠢或可能改变的事情，那么你就真的做到了。

Lenny Rachitsky: Do you have any advice for how to pushback in a way, the way you describe it is not to be difficult to work with or without seeking importance?

Lenny Rachitsky：对于如何以某种方式进行反击，您有什么建议吗？您所描述的方式是无论是否寻求重要性都不会很难工作？

I guess is there words or phrases or approaches you found are effective for pushing back against ideas that you disagree with?

Vikrama Dhiman: What I've seen that people who do pushback very successfully and are still considered not difficult to work with, they are also able to bring the tempo of the conversation to a more logical space from an emotional space.

Vikrama Dhiman：据我所知，那些能够非常成功地进行反击并且仍然被认为不难合作的人，他们还能够将对话的节奏从情感空间带到更逻辑的空间。

I think that's such a useful skill and I sometimes am guilty of operating on a slightly emotional note, which is useful.

我认为这是一项非常有用的技能，有时我会因为在稍微情绪化的情况下进行操作而感到内疚，但这很有用。

Sometimes you need a war cry, you need a high pitch, you need execution on war footing.

有时你需要一声战吼，需要高调，需要战时执行。

All that is fine, but it's only fine in some cases.

In other cases, it's always very important that you're able to bring it down to the logical space so that a logical and a little more equal footing of the discussion can happen.

在其他情况下，能够将其归结为逻辑空间始终非常重要，以便可以进行合乎逻辑且更加平等的讨论。

And a lot of this is something that leaders need to ensure is happening, but product managers and product leaders who are working with executives who are able to bring this tempo down and bring it to a little more logical space will also do far better in their careers and they'll also have a lot more rapid career growth.

其中很多都是领导者需要确保发生的事情，但是与能够降低这种节奏并使其进入更逻辑空间的高管合作的产品经理和产品领导者也会在他们的职业生涯中做得更好，他们也会有更快的职业发展。

Lenny Rachitsky: So let's talk about the flip side of rapid career growth, which is career growth that stalls.

Lenny Rachitsky：那么让我们谈谈快速职业发展的另一面，即职业发展停滞。

And I'm curious what you've found most impedes people's career growth.

What do PMs do that shoot themselves in the foot and slow their career?

Any pitfalls do you find are important to try to watch out for?

Vikrama Dhiman: I think part of it is on a lot of us in product leadership space.

Vikrama Dhiman：我认为部分原因在于我们许多人在产品领导领域。

We've not done a very good job in defining rubrics, growth frameworks and so on.

But even in places where growth frameworks exist, like three W's, what I've seen is that clean mindset shifts and changes can enable faster growth, but those mindset and changes also can hinder your growth, right?

但即使在存在增长框架的地方，比如三个W，我所看到的是，干净的心态转变和变化可以实现更快的增长，但这些心态和变化也会阻碍你的成长，对吗？

So the first thing is whether you are focusing on things you control or whether you're focusing on things that are beyond your control.

因此，第一件事是你是否专注于你可以控制的事情，或者你是否专注于你无法控制的事情。

Second, what's your relationship with change?

第二，你和变革有什么关系？

And third is how you see yourself.

第三是你如何看待自己。

The third is very, very powerful and we'll talk about that as well.

第三个非常非常强大，我们也会讨论这个。

The first is what you control.

第一个是你所控制的。

If you drew an access of what you control and what you cannot control, as you're starting your career, most of the work that you're doing is in what you control, right?

如果在你开始你的职业生涯时，你能区分出你能控制的和不能控制的，那么你所做的大部分工作都是在你能控制的范围内，对吗？

Vikrama Dhiman: You are very obsessed with feedback, you're very obsessed with, "Okay, can I do this?" "Can I do this?" "Okay, I'll probably not do this.

Vikrama Dhiman：你非常痴迷于反馈，你非常痴迷于“好吧，我可以这样做吗？” “我可以这样做吗？” “好吧，我可能不会这么做。

I'll probably do this", and so on.

我可能会这样做”，等等。

You're not worrying about the overall corporate strategy, you're not looking at what the competitors are doing, what is their market cap and all those things.

你不用担心整体公司战略，你不用考虑竞争对手在做什么，他们的市值是多少等等。

You're focused a lot on your craft, you're focused on a lot on your output and you're focused on how you are growing.

你非常关注你的手艺，你非常关注你的产出，你非常关注你的成长方式。

As you start becoming mid-senior, I see the conversation shifts from what can I do, how am I learning, how am I growing, to why is the organization not doing this for me?

当你开始成为中高级时，我发现谈话内容从我能做什么、我如何学习、我如何成长，转变为为什么组织不为我做这件事？

Why can that stakeholder not change this thing about themselves?

为什么利益相关者不能改变自己的这一点？

Why do I not get to work on projects like this?

为什么我不去从事这样的项目呢？

Things which start going outside your control.

事情开始超出你的控制范围。

And it is very, very important that you keep your focus no matter what stage of career you get into what you can control.

无论你处于职业生涯的哪个阶段，保持注意力集中在你可以控制的事情上，这一点非常非常重要。

Vikrama Dhiman: And again, it's easy to say that everything in universe should be in your control.

Vikrama Dhiman：再说一次，很容易说宇宙中的一切都应该在你的控制之下。

It doesn't happen like that, but a large number of things that impact your career are within your control.

事情不会那样发生，但影响你职业生涯的很多事情都在你的掌控之中。

And go back to the three W's that we spoke about, what you work on, what you produce or what do you bring to the table, and what's your operating model?

回到我们谈到的三个W，你从事什么工作，你生产什么或你带来什么，以及你的运营模式是什么？

And there is tons to do on data, tons to do on technology, tons to do on communication, collaboration, design and research, strategy and community.

在数据、技术、沟通、协作、设计和研究、战略和社区方面还有很多工作要做。

And you can spend years and years and years crafting those things.

Focus on those things, growth will happen at every single stage.

专注于这些事情，每个阶段都会发生成长。

The second aspect of it is your relationship with change.

第二个方面是你与变革的关系。

Again, when you are younger, when you're starting off, rate of change is crazy.

再说一次，当你年轻的时候，当你刚开始的时候，变化的速度是疯狂的。

You are growing almost every six months.

你几乎每六个月就会成长一次。

You are picking up skills and experimentation, you're picking up skills in how to analyze.

你正在学习技能和实验，你正在学习如何分析的技能。

Vikrama Dhiman: You're picking up skills in how to work with different kind of stakeholders.

Vikrama Dhiman：您正在学习如何与不同类型的利益相关者合作的技能。

And since the rate of change of your skills is high, your rate of growth is also high.

而且由于你的技能变化率很高，所以你的成长率也很高。

Again, as you start becoming mid-senior, I start seeing conversations on, "Okay, maybe I should not do that.

同样，当你开始成为中高级时，我开始看到这样的对话：“好吧，也许我不应该这样做。

Maybe I should not take on this product.

也许我不应该接受这个产品。

I don't know what it means for my career.

我不知道这对我的职业生涯意味着什么。

I don't know what it means for my growth" and so on.

我不知道这对我的成长意味着什么”等等。

So your rate of change slows down.

所以你的变化速度会减慢。

So it's very important that as you get to mid-senior level, you are constantly checking on what you can do to keep increasing your rate of change.

因此，当你达到中高级水平时，你要不断地检查你能做些什么来不断提高你的变化率，这一点非常重要。

And one of the simplest things that you can do is if you think you are four on data, figure out who.

你能做的最简单的事情之一就是，如果你认为你在数据方面是四号，找出谁。

And you may be four on data out of five in data.

在数据方面，五分之二的你可能对数据有四分之二。

Within your organization, start benchmarking yourself with the best in the industry.

在您的组织内，开始以业内最优秀的人为标准来衡量自己。

Vikrama Dhiman: You'll automatically see that your scale drops and as your scale drops, you start seeing what you need to improve and do.

Vikrama Dhiman：你会自动看到你的规模下降，随着你的规模下降，你开始看到你需要改进和做什么。

If you start seeing that on communication and collaboration, you're reaching four out of five within the PMR, start mapping yourself to other stakeholders in other functions.

如果您开始发现在沟通和协作方面，您在 PMR 中达到了五分之四，请开始将自己与其他职能部门的其他利益相关者进行映射。

Again, your score will fall in your eyes and you will start figuring out what are the things that you can do as well.

同样，你的分数将落在你的眼前，你将开始弄清楚你还可以做哪些事情。

So keep your focus on rate of change and rate of growth will automatically take care of itself.

因此，将注意力集中在变化率上，增长率就会自然而然地实现。

Sometimes it also involves changing your team or even changing your company, but those should be the last results.

有时还涉及到改变你的团队，甚至改变你的公司，但那应该是最后的结果。

There are significant things that you can do within that as well.

您也可以在其中做一些重要的事情。

One of the final things that I see which limits you, especially as you start growing in your career and you reach mid-senior levels is how you see yourself.

我认为限制你的最后一件事之一就是你如何看待自己，尤其是当你开始职业发展并达到中高级水平时。

Vikrama Dhiman: I see a lot of product...

Vikrama Dhiman：我看到很多产品......

And I've been guilty of that.

我对此感到内疚。

When I see that a lot of product managers, that's included me at some stage, doing these things, people will come back and say, "Oh, I am a very high agency PM" or, "I'm a very collaborative PM." Earlier on, I used to think that okay, I need to give this kind of work to these product managers.

当我看到很多产品经理（包括我）在某个阶段做这些事情时，人们会回来说，“哦，我是一位非常高级的机构 PM”或者“我是一位非常协作的 PM。”早些时候，我曾经认为，好吧，我需要把这种工作交给这些产品经理。

I need to fit them with these kind of team, these kind of work areas, these kind of opportunities.

我需要让他们适应这样的团队、这样的工作领域、这样的机会。

But then I started understanding these things are not just signaling, they are also anti-signaling.

但后来我开始明白这些东西不仅仅是信号，它们也是反信号。

They are like, "Oh, I'm high agency.

他们就像是，“哦，我的代理权很高。

So it's sometimes okay if I'm little brash, if I cut corners somewhere, if I sometimes come across as a little rude to some people" and so on, right?

所以有时候，如果我有点傲慢，如果我在某个地方偷工减料，如果我有时对某些人来说有点粗鲁”等等，对吧？

Vikrama Dhiman: Similarly, if I'm seen as a hyper-collaborative person, so it's okay if sometimes I'm not very decisive, if I'm not moving fast and so on because I'm this kind of a PM.

Vikrama Dhiman：同样，如果我被视为一个高度协作的人，那么有时我不是很果断，如果我行动不快等等，那也没关系，因为我就是这样的 PM。

So it's very important that you check for what are the stories that you're telling yourself because those stories are defining you at a basic level, which is then very hard to correct through frameworks and structures.

因此，检查你正在告诉自己的故事是非常重要的，因为这些故事在基本层面上定义了你，然后很难通过框架和结构来纠正。

So figure out what is the story that you are telling yourself.

所以弄清楚你正在告诉自己的故事是什么。

If you are not able to figure that out, talk to the people you trust so that they can tell you that as well, and then correct those stories.

如果您无法弄清楚这一点，请与您信任的人交谈，以便他们也可以告诉您这一点，然后纠正这些故事。

And the moment you are able to correct those stories, you may be back on the growth path again.

当你能够纠正这些故事的那一刻，你可能会再次回到成长的道路上。

Lenny Rachitsky: Wow, there's so much meat and wisdom in what you just shared.

Lenny Rachitsky：哇，你刚才分享的内容有很多内容和智慧。

I want to go in so many different directions.

我想朝很多不同的方向发展。

Maybe just to follow on this last thread, did you go through something like that yourself where you have this sense of yourself that hindered you?

也许只是为了继续最后一条线索，你自己是否经历过类似的事情，让你有这种阻碍你的自我感觉？

Okay, awesome.

好吧，太棒了。

You're nodding your head, if you're not on YouTube.

如果您不在 YouTube 上，您就是在点头。

Can you share that?

你能分享一下吗？

Vikrama Dhiman: Yeah.

维克拉玛·迪曼：是的。

So I'll give an example of when I joined Gojek.

我将举一个我加入 Gojek 的例子。

The very first thing that I learned in my career was SQL and Oracle.

我在职业生涯中学到的第一件事就是 SQL 和 Oracle。

And I was very proud of the fact that my data skills are awesome and I know several frameworks and I know several tools and so on.

我感到非常自豪的是，我的数据技能非常棒，我知道几个框架，我知道几个工具等等。

And when I joined Gojek and I saw one of your guests, Crystal, and I saw the work that she was doing and her team was doing and I just immediately was like, "Yeah, no, this is not...

当我加入 Gojek 时，我看到了你们的一位客人 Crystal，我看到了她正在做的工作以及她的团队正在做的工作，我立刻就想，“是的，不，这不是......

I'm nowhere near", right?

我还差得很远”，对吗？

And similarly, I also thought that my communication skills are really good and my product strategy skills are very good, but then I worked with people like Dito and people like Sidu who was so good at their craft that it challenged me to see that okay, what is it that I am missing?

同样，我也认为我的沟通技巧非常好，我的产品策略技巧也非常好，但后来我与像 Dito 和 Sidu 这样的人一起工作，他们的技术非常出色，这让我意识到，好吧，我错过了什么？

What is it that I am doing wrong?

我做错了什么？

Vikrama Dhiman: And it auto-calibrated me in my eyes on where it was, but that also created a hunger in me that this is what I need to fix.

Vikrama Dhiman：它会自动在我的眼睛中校准我的位置，但这也让我产生了一种饥饿感，这就是我需要解决的问题。

And I immediately corrected my assessment of myself that I'm not the strongest product manager on data.

我立即纠正了对自己的评估，我不是数据方面最强的产品经理。

I'm not the one who knows all the strategy pieces or even strategy frameworks or how to bring everything to a strategy point of view or communicate it from an effective perspective.

我不是一个了解所有战略部分甚至战略框架的人，也不知道如何将一切纳入战略角度或从有效的角度进行沟通。

And then I started framing I'm still in a learning phase.

然后我开始认为我仍处于学习阶段。

When I see that I'm not in that phase now, I try and make myself humble by interacting with people who are far smarter than me on different scale or reading different books, or watching podcasts like yourselves.

当我发现自己现在还没有处于那个阶段时，我会尝试通过与比我聪明得多的人互动、阅读不同的书籍或观看像你们这样的播客来让自己变得谦虚。

And that keeps you grounded on the fact that okay, you are always learning.

这让你立足于这样一个事实：好吧，你一直在学习。

And I also found that seeing yourself as someone who's a learner is an enabling story to tell yourself, okay?

我还发现，将自己视为学习者是一个可以告诉自己的故事，好吗？

Vikrama Dhiman: It may not be the most exciting story, it may not be the most memorable story about yourself, but it is definitely one of the enabling stories as well.

Vikrama Dhiman：这可能不是最激动人心的故事，也可能不是关于你自己的最难忘的故事，但它绝对是最有力量的故事之一。

Similarly, I think one other thing that I used to say about myself was more that I'm very high agency PM.

同样，我认为我曾经说过的关于自己的另一件事更多的是我是非常高的机构 PM。

But as I started working more in Southeast Asia, I learned that mindfulness is also very, very important, that not every team, not every culture will work with you in a very hyper aggressive style.

但当我开始更多地在东南亚工作时，我了解到正念也非常非常重要，并不是每个团队、不是每种文化都会以一种非常激进的方式与你合作。

But you still need to get the work done.

但你仍然需要完成工作。

And I'm still learning on that and therefore, I've started using a word, I don't want to be a high agency person, I want to be a mindful agency person.

我仍在学习这一点，因此，我开始使用一个词，我不想成为一个高级代理人员，我想成为一个有思想的代理人员。

And so these terms are very important because these are the stories that you keep telling yourself and these also then start shaping your behavior.

因此，这些术语非常重要，因为这些是您不断告诉自己的故事，然后这些故事也会开始塑造您的行为。

I do feel that I have a lot to do, I have a lot to learn on these skills, but these things definitely keep you grounded and you keep coming back to the learning phase again.

我确实觉得我还有很多事情要做，我在这些技能上还有很多东西要学习，但这些事情肯定会让你脚踏实地，让你不断地再次回到学习阶段。

Lenny Rachitsky: It's interesting that when you saw Crystal being incredibly good at working with data, you just realized, "Hey, maybe I'm actually not very good at this." And your reaction wasn't, "God damn it, I'm really screwed and this is really depressing me", it's, "No, instead I'm going to try to get better at this." And that reminds me some of the feedback I get with this podcast, those people are like, "Man, these people are so good, I'm never going to be this good.

Lenny Rachitsky：有趣的是，当你看到 Crystal 非常擅长处理数据时，你就会意识到，“嘿，也许我实际上不太擅长这件事。”你的反应不是，“该死的，我真的完蛋了，这真的让我很沮丧”，而是，“不，相反，我要努力在这方面做得更好。”这让我想起了我通过这个播客得到的一些反馈，那些人就像是，“伙计，这些人太棒了，我永远不会这么棒。

It discourages me from thinking I will ever be super successful in this career." Clearly, you have a different approach.

这让我不敢相信自己会在这个职业生涯中取得超级成功。”显然，你有不同的方法。

Do you have advice or guidance to folks that are sometimes discouraged seeing people being so incredible and helping them actually continue to level up in this rate of change you talked about versus just like, "Nope, I'm never going to be that good?"

对于那些有时会因为看到人们如此令人难以置信而感到灰心并帮助他们真正继续以你所说的这种变化速度前进的人，你有什么建议或指导吗？而不是像“不，我永远不会那么好？”

Vikrama Dhiman: I think as product managers it becomes difficult because a lot of your growth is being determined because of feedback of others.

Vikrama Dhiman：我认为作为产品经理这会变得很困难，因为你的很多成长都是由其他人的反馈决定的。

And because product management is so ambiguous and still not defined, the stakeholders can also give feedback on variety of dimensions.

而且由于产品管理非常模糊且尚未定义，利益相关者也可以在各种维度上提供反馈。

Some of them may not even be important enough to give feedback on, but they are important enough for them and so therefore, they give you feedback.

其中一些可能甚至不够重要，无法提供反馈，但它们对他们来说足够重要，因此，他们会给你反馈。

And therefore, you have to shape that feedback in.

因此，你必须塑造反馈。

But you also have to consider that there are these eight access that we spoke about, the data access, the design and research access, the technology access, the strategy access, communication access, collaboration access, organizational skills access, and the community access.

但你还必须考虑到我们谈到的这八种访问权限，即数据访问权限、设计和研究访问权限、技术访问权限、策略访问权限、沟通访问权限、协作访问权限、组织技能访问权限和社区访问权限。

You need to channelize feedback into okay, is this an area that you are targeting for growth or not?

您需要将反馈引导到好的领域，这是否是您的增长目标？

Vikrama Dhiman: And one of the most important things that I learned was that when I joined Gojek or even earlier, there would be so many different areas that I needed to improve on and still need to improve on.

Vikrama Dhiman：我学到的最重要的事情之一是，当我加入 Gojek 甚至更早的时候，会有很多不同的领域需要我改进，并且仍然需要改进。

You can't improve on every single area.

你不可能在每一个领域都取得进步。

That's what overwhelms you.

这就是让你不知所措的原因。

You need to pick which is the area which is the maximum leverage for you and improve on that particular aspect and then move on to the next area, then move on to the next area and so on.

你需要选择对你来说影响最大的领域，并改进该特定方面，然后进入下一个领域，然后进入下一个领域，依此类推。

Obviously, if you are floundering in something, if you're really negative in something, then you fix that first because that will give you the highest leverage.

显然，如果你在某件事上陷入困境，如果你真的对某事持消极态度，那么你首先要解决这个问题，因为这会给你带来最高的影响力。

But if you are picking up data and design and strategy and technology all at the same time, that's when you'll overwhelm you.

但如果你同时学习数据、设计、策略和技术，那么你就会不知所措。

Lenny Rachitsky: So to summarize the advice there is one, be actually very open to feedback you're getting.

Lenny Rachitsky：总结一下建议，就是对收到的反馈保持开放的态度。

It's easy to say that, it's hard to actually listen to people criticizing you and act on it.

说起来很容易，真正倾听人们的批评并采取行动却很难。

So I think that's an important takeaway here is just actually, feedback is a gift and actually understand that and try to act on it.

所以我认为这是一个重要的结论，实际上，反馈是一份礼物，真正理解这一点并尝试采取行动。

I have a great interview with Jules Walter who's a PM at Google now, and he has this awesome quote about how whenever people give him hard feedback, it's like internally he's just melting, but that's externally he's like, "Thank you so much for that feedback, I really appreciate it.

我对朱尔斯·沃尔特（Jules Walter）进行了一次很棒的采访，他现在是谷歌的产品经理，他有一句很棒的引言，每当人们给他严厉的反馈时，他的内心就像融化了一样，但在外表上，他会说，“非常感谢你的反馈，我真的很感激。

It's very valuable."

这是非常有价值的。”

Lenny Rachitsky: And so that's a good way to get people to keep giving feedback.

Lenny Rachitsky：所以这是让人们不断提供反馈的好方法。

Okay.

好的。

And then the other piece of advice you just shared there is pick a focus area.

您刚才分享的另一条建议是选择一个重点领域。

Like say you're getting all this feedback, your strategy isn't amazing, your PRDs aren't great, just find one thing to focus on.

就像说你收到了所有这些反馈，你的策略并不令人惊奇，你的 PRD 也不是很好，只需找到一件值得关注的事情即可。

And I don't know, do you try to do somewhat quarter?

我不知道，你是否尝试做一些季度的事情？

Somewhat year?

某年？

Do you have a heuristic of how long to spend on one thing?

您是否有关于在一件事情上花费多长时间的启发？

Vikrama Dhiman: So different skills take different time and how you are progressing also depends a lot as well.

Vikrama Dhiman：所以不同的技能需要不同的时间，你的进步也取决于很多。

For skills which are softer in nature like communication and collaboration and community, those are skills that you will work on all your life.

对于本质上较软的技能，如沟通、协作和社区，这些技能是你一生都需要学习的技能。

You'll never achieve anywhere near two or five on five on those ever.

你永远不可能在这些比赛中取得接近二比五或五对五的成绩。

There'll always be something that you will miss, there will always be a new context, there'll always be a new set of stakeholders, new company cultures that you have to adapt to.

总会有一些你会错过的东西，总会有一个新的环境，总会有一组新的利益相关者，你必须适应的新的公司文化。

For others, you have to see that what gives you the maximum leverage in your career.

对于其他人来说，你必须看到什么可以给你的职业生涯带来最大的影响力。

When you're starting off, my recommendation is that you pick between data and tech one, and definitely one on design and research and strategy.

当你开始时，我的建议是你在数据和技术之间进行选择，并且绝对选择设计、研究和策略。

Vikrama Dhiman: So usually, that's the combo that I recommend.

Vikrama Dhiman：通常，这就是我推荐的组合。

My advice is if you're coming from design and research background, then you pick data or tech.

我的建议是，如果您有设计和研究背景，那么您可以选择数据或技术。

If you're coming from a data or tech background, then you pick design and research, and that gives you the maximum leverage because that's a skill that you will necessarily not have developed over the years.

如果您来自数据或技术背景，那么您会选择设计和研究，这会给您带来最大的影响力，因为这是您多年来不一定会发展的技能。

Once you've demonstrated on two of these three, between data, tech and design and research, then you start focusing on strategy.

一旦你展示了这三者中的两个，即数据、技术、设计和研究，那么你就开始关注策略。

We've had great success at Gojek in transitioning a lot of product managers, especially in Indonesia, using this framework.

我们在 Gojek 使用这个框架成功地完成了许多产品经理的转型，尤其是在印度尼西亚。

And it's produced a lot of good product managers for us.

它为我们培养了很多优秀的产品经理。

Lenny Rachitsky: Well, let's actually follow that thread.

Lenny Rachitsky：好吧，让我们实际遵循这个思路。

That's really interesting.

这真的很有趣。

And so the approach is you have this access of skillsets and you pick, for this person moving from say customer service to product, here's the two things you need to focus on.

因此，方法是你可以访问技能组，并且你可以选择，对于这个从客户服务转向产品的人，这是你需要关注的两件事。

Can you talk more about that?

你能多谈谈吗？

Vikrama Dhiman: Yeah.

维克拉玛·迪曼：是的。

For instance, we recently had two PMs, one who came from a growth background.

例如，我们最近有两位产品经理，其中一位来自成长背景。

This is actually 's team.

这其实是的团队。

And one from a research background.

还有一位来自研究背景。

And with both of them, we use very different tactics.

对于这两种情况，我们使用非常不同的策略。

So we gave one of finding driver redesign, which was very much a very design-focused product, but we still had them leverage their data skills because we were able to create a PRD with incredible amount of data on exactly what different segments of customers we're doing.

因此，我们提供了一个寻找驱动程序重新设计的方案，这是一个非常注重设计的产品，但我们仍然让他们利用他们的数据技能，因为我们能够创建一个 PRD，其中包含大量关于我们正在做的不同客户群的数据。

And that then we worked with designers on what the designs and the framework for that will be.

然后我们与设计师一起研究设计和框架。

And even now, Lenny, if you will come and see our finding driver redesign next time you are in Asia, it's a piece of art.

即使是现在，莱尼，如果您下次来亚洲时能来看看我们重新设计的寻找驱动器，那它就是一件艺术品。

And if you would see that that was worked on by a product manager who actually came from a growth and data background, that makes it even more special.

如果你看到这是由一位真正来自增长和数据背景的产品经理完成的，那就更特别了。

Vikrama Dhiman: Similarly, the PM who transitioned from research, I kept giving feedback on technology and data skills are the ones that we need to check.

Vikrama Dhiman：同样，从研究转型的 PM，我不断提供有关技术和数据技能的反馈，这是我们需要检查的。

And I need to hear from engineers that yes, they're able to work with her very strongly.

我需要从工程师那里听到，是的，他们能够与她紧密合作。

And once she was able to do that, she's recently turned a very heated question on one of the features that we were doing into a full-blown solution with designs, with trade-offs and everything, and able to now convert it into a question for leadership on how we should be approaching this particular product and direction.

一旦她能够做到这一点，她最近就将我们正在做的一项功能的一个非常激烈的问题转变为一个带有设计、权衡和一切的成熟解决方案，并且现在能够将其转换为领导层关于我们应该如何接近这个特定产品和方向的问题。

So I think that's proven successful as well.

所以我认为这也被证明是成功的。

Similarly, there's another person who took risk who was originally from research and again, worked a lot on our products, including our enterprise product.

And she's doing an amazing job as well.

她也做得非常出色。

Again, going through that path of okay, these are the things that you need to leverage.

再说一遍，在这条好的道路上，这些都是你需要利用的东西。

Vikrama Dhiman: The only watch-out is that it doesn't work out always.

Vikrama Dhiman：唯一需要注意的是它并不总是有效。

In some cases, some PMs will pick these things up fast, and it also makes a big difference if you are transitioning when you are slightly younger in your career.

If you are already senior in a function and then you are transitioning, sometimes it can take a lot of time in transitioning and picking up those skills.

But it's definitely doable if you get a very strong product leader working with you who's able to shape those skills for you.

但如果你有一个非常强大的产品领导者与你一起工作，他能够为你塑造这些技能，那么这绝对是可行的。

So it's sometimes okay to go a little slow when you're transitioning so that you're able to go faster later rather than getting faster somewhere and then being stuck there for a while.

Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by Coda, and I mean that literally.

Lenny Rachitsky：这一集是由 Coda 为您带来的，我的意思是字面上的意思。

I use Coda every day to help me plan each episode of this very podcast.

我每天都使用 Coda 来帮助我计划这个播客的每一集。

It's where I keep my content calendar, my guest research, and also the questions that I plan to ask each guest.

这是我保存内容日历、客人研究以及我计划向每位客人询问的问题的地方。

Also, during the recording itself, I have a Coda page up to remind myself what I want to talk about.

另外，在录音过程中，我会打开一个 Coda 页面来提醒自己要谈论什么。

Coda is an all-in-one platform that combines the best of documents, spreadsheets, and apps to help you and your team get more done.

Coda 是一个一体化平台，结合了最好的文档、电子表格和应用程序，可帮助您和您的团队完成更多工作。

Now is the perfect time to get started with Coda, especially its extensive planning capabilities.

现在是开始使用 Coda 的最佳时机，尤其是它广泛的规划功能。

With Coda, you can stay aligned and ship faster by managing your planning cycles in one location.

借助 Coda，您可以通过在一个地点管理您的计划周期来保持一致并加快发货速度。

You can set and measure OKRs with full visibility across teams and stakeholders.

您可以设置和衡量 OKR，并在团队和利益相关者之间具有完全可见性。

You can map dependencies, create progress visualizations, and identify risk areas.

您可以映射依赖关系、创建进度可视化并识别风险区域。

Plus, you can access hundreds of pressure-tested templates for everything from roadmap strategy to final decision-making to PRDs.

此外，您还可以访问数百个经过压力测试的模板，涵盖从路线图策略到最终决策再到 PRD 的所有内容。

Lenny Rachitsky: If you want a platform that empowers your team to strategize, plan and track goals together, you can get started with Coda today for free.

Lenny Rachitsky：如果您想要一个平台，让您的团队能够共同制定战略、计划和跟踪目标，那么您今天就可以免费开始使用 Coda。

And if you want to see for yourself why product teams at high-growth companies like Pinterest, Figma and Qualtrics run on Coda, take advantage of the special limited-time offer just for startups.

如果您想亲自了解为什么 Pinterest、Figma 和 Qualtrics 等高增长公司的产品团队在 Coda 上运行，请利用专为初创公司提供的特殊限时优惠。

Head over to coda.io/lenny to sign up and get $1,000 in credit.

前往 coda.io/lenny 注册并获得 1,000 美元的积分。

That's C-O-D-A.io/lenny to sign up and get $1,000 in credit.

这是 C-O-D-A.io/lenny 注册并获得 1,000 美元的信用。

Coda.io/lenny.

Coda.io/lenny。

Lenny Rachitsky: Something that you mentioned earlier that I wanted to come back to is this confusion about what the PM role is and how that trips people up in being successful in the role and continuing to thrive in the role.

You mentioned this to me offline too, that this is just something you deal with a lot, just this frustration of what the hell is this job?

你在线下也向我提到过这一点，这只是你经常处理的事情，只是对这份工作到底是什么感到沮丧？

What am I actually responsible for?

我实际上负责什么？

What am I not?

我不是什么？

What do you find is helpful in helping people work through that, get past that, not make that a big blocker in their career, not knowing exactly what the PM role is?

Vikrama Dhiman: I think we've been in technology product for several decades now, but we are still figuring out what an exact definition of product management is.

And even the strongest definitions are slightly principled and philosophical in nature, they're not very concrete, and that also means that every and different technology companies have gone through different journeys and they've defined the roles very, very differently.

And even within a very large company, you will see that different teams, different divisions are approaching the roles very, very differently as well.

Vikrama Dhiman: And on top of that, what that does is that not only internally the product managers are figuring this out, their managers, their leaders are figuring these things out for them, but the other stakeholders who have to work with these product managers are also confused and they don't know what to expect.

And the number one question I get from stakeholders is, is a product manager expected to do this?

我从利益相关者那里得到的第一个问题是，产品经理是否应该这样做？

Because they also don't know, okay, is this expected from a product manager or not?

因为他们也不知道，好吧，这是否是产品经理所期望的？

And my general answer to that is, if this is something which is blocking the progress on the product, then yes, the product manager should work on that.

Vikrama Dhiman: But that works if the product managers have had some training and they have had some training in working with different stakeholders and they have had something on the job.

What I've figured out is that there are certain functions and there are certain disciplines which you can't define, but you can only become better at with practice.

For instance, what is an actor or what is a dancer?

例如，什么是演员或舞者？

Right?

正确的？

So these are things that you will get better at as you become skilled at it.

所以，当你变得熟练时，这些事情你就会变得更好。

And earlier, these things used to be looked at as something which is very artistic, only the people who are talented or only specific kind of people can do it.

But now, each one of those has become and frameworks as well.

但现在，其中每一个都已经成为框架。

So there are courses on filmmaking, there are courses on acting, there are courses on dancing and so on.

所以有电影制作的课程，有表演的课程，有舞蹈的课程等等。

And similarly, product management is that space as well.

同样，产品管理也是这个领域。

Vikrama Dhiman: So you have to understand there's an art to it and there's a science to it, but you can use the science to figure out the art.

Vikrama Dhiman：所以你必须明白它有艺术，也有科学，但你可以用科学来弄清楚艺术。

So that's the philosophical side of it.

这就是它的哲学方面。

The second side of it is what we spoke about earlier that instead of figuring out what is product management, figure out what's your contribution, what's your output and figure out are you contributing on these access on data, on design, on technology and on strategy.

And one of my favorite things is that if you created these four circles of strategy, of technology, of design and of data, and you created a product management circle which encircles each one of these, so you are the only discipline, which is the co-collaborator for all of these disciplines and tying all these things out.

Vikrama Dhiman: So it's not about you standing alone, it's you always collaborating and pairing with someone else.

Vikrama Dhiman：所以这不是你独自一人的问题，而是你总是与其他人合作和结对的问题。

But you are the only one who's pairing with everyone else and therefore, you have that unique insight which no one else in the team will have.

但你是唯一一个与其他人配对的人，因此，你拥有团队中其他人所不具备的独特洞察力。

That role can be played by someone else, it doesn't necessarily need to be called a product manager.

这个角色可以由其他人来扮演，不一定需要称为产品经理。

But if you are being called a product manager, you figure out the the time piece that you are.

但如果你被称为产品经理，你就会明白自己的职责。

And when you are added to the team, you must dream the team's overall contribution, overall energy and overall output up and not down.

而当你加入到团队中时，你一定梦想着团队的整体贡献、整体能量、整体输出上升而不是下降。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love that.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢这个。

Something I always tell people is the PM doesn't necessarily have the magical skills other team members don't have, it's that they don't also have another job.

我总是告诉人们，PM 不一定拥有其他团队成员所没有的神奇技能，而是他们没有其他工作。

Engineers may do a great job at being the PM, they just also have to build and code.

工程师可能在 PM 方面做得很好，但他们还需要构建和编码。

And they don't have time to do all the things that a PM has to do, and a designer is in the same way, a researcher or data person.

他们没有时间做产品经理必须做的所有事情，而设计师也是同样的，研究员或数据人员。

And so oftentimes, that's just like there's this person that has the time to do all these glue, work things between teams.

很多时候，就像有人有时间在团队之间做所有这些粘合工作。

And the great PMs also are very good at these skills that help you do these things, but it doesn't mean other people can't do them.

伟大的产品经理也非常擅长这些技能，可以帮助你做这些事情，但这并不意味着其他人不能做这些事情。

Vikrama Dhiman: You see yourself as playing a role and not your title and not your function, and that just clarifies a lot of things for people.

Vikrama Dhiman：你认为自己在扮演一个角色，而不是你的头衔，也不是你的职能，这只是为人们澄清了很多事情。

And different people will play different roles.

而且不同的人会扮演不同的角色。

And depending on the kind of a PM you are, are you in a specific domain or you are slightly generalist, the role that you will be playing in different teams can be different and the variety of roles that you can play makes you a better product manager.

根据您的产品经理类型，您是在特定领域工作还是稍微通才，您在不同团队中扮演的角色可能会有所不同，而您可以扮演的各种角色使您成为更好的产品经理。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love that.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢这个。

You've mentioned these four access attributes of great product managers, overall product managers.

您提到了优秀产品经理、整体产品经理的这四个访问属性。

Let's just spend a little time here.

让我们在这里花一点时间吧。

So you say basically the things you need to be doing and good at, data, design/research technology, strategy, and then you also mentioned collaboration and communication.

所以你基本上说的是你需要做和擅长的事情，数据、设计/研究技术、策略，然后你还提到了协作和沟通。

Maybe you're-

也许你是——

Vikrama Dhiman: Yeah, organizational skills and community.

Vikrama Dhiman：是的，组织能力和社区。

I think those are very, very important because one of the things and one of the things which one of the product managers works with me continues to say, and I really plus on that a lot, is that product manager is the all community enabler in the team, in the organization.

我认为这些非常非常重要，因为与我一起工作的一位产品经理继续说的一件事和一件事，我真的很喜欢这一点，那就是产品经理是团队、组织中所有社区的推动者。

And that community is the software aspect which ties everyone together towards a common mission of delivering an output.

该社区是软件方面，它将每个人联系在一起，以实现交付输出的共同使命。

And that I think is a very, very important goal in today's context, especially for teams which are becoming more remote or teams where people are not co-located or they're distributed.

我认为在当今的背景下，这是一个非常非常重要的目标，特别是对于那些变得更加偏远的团队或人们不在同一地点或分散的团队。

That community aspect becomes a very, very important part that product managers need to focus on and bring and channelize as well.

社区方面成为产品经理需要关注、引入和引导的非常非常重要的部分。

Lenny Rachitsky: So let's just quickly describe each of these attributes.

Lenny Rachitsky：让我们快速描述一下这些属性。

I imagine people might be thinking, "Okay, what should I get better at as a PM?" And this is an awesome list.

我想人们可能会想，“好吧，作为一名产品经理，我应该在哪些方面做得更好？”这是一个很棒的清单。

Each company has their own career ladders and attributes and things like that, but not a lot of companies don't.

每家公司都有自己的职业阶梯和属性等，但并不是很多公司没有。

So I think for people that are trying to figure out where do I need to get better, I think this is a really cool list.

所以我认为对于那些试图弄清楚我需要在哪些方面变得更好的人来说，我认为这是一个非常酷的清单。

Can you just maybe just a sentence explanation of each of these attributes and skillsets that a PM needs?

您能否仅用一句话解释 PM 所需的每个属性和技能？

Vikrama Dhiman: So each one of those skills, like the most growth ladders, what they will do, is they will have say for data, they will have level one, exhibits these traits.

Vikrama Dhiman：因此，这些技能中的每一项，就像大多数成长阶梯一样，他们将做的是，他们将对数据有发言权，他们将拥有第一级，展示这些特征。

Level two, exhibits this trait.

第二级，表现出这种特征。

Level three, exhibits this trait.

第三级，表现出这种特征。

Level four and level five and so on.

四级、五级等等。

That's how they'll describe it.

他们就是这样描述的。

But five is absolute ninja level data quality, like you could probably do a data startup of your own.

但五是绝对的忍者级数据质量，就像您可以自己启动数据一样。

Vikrama Dhiman: Crystal.

Vikrama Dhiman：水晶。

And level zero is someone who cannot even basically define the basic metrics for this particular product and won't be able to figure out is this particular thing impacting orders or users or revenue.

零级是指甚至无法基本上定义该特定产品的基本指标，并且无法弄清楚该特定事物是否会影响订单、用户或收入。

And so you'll really not be able to figure even that piece out.

所以你真的无法弄清楚那一块。

Similarly, on design and research, for product managers, we focus a lot more on problems and are you able to identify problems from a user's perspective.

同样，在设计和研究上，对于产品经理来说，我们更多地关注问题，你是否能够从用户的角度来识别问题。

That's at level zero.

那是零级。

And level five will be somebody who's able to define the user problems but is also able to tie them to business roles as well.

第五级将是能够定义用户问题但也能够将它们与业务角色联系起来的人。

So that makes it the holistic.

所以这使它成为整体。

Similarly, on technology, it's one of the skills which is relatively easier to define where you don't have any tech understanding.

同样，在技术方面，它是在你不了解任何技术的情况下相对更容易定义的技能之一。

If somebody asked you what is HTTP or API or internet and you'll be like, "Okay, I don't know what it is."

如果有人问你什么是 HTTP 或 API 或互联网，你会说，“好吧，我不知道它是什么。”

Vikrama Dhiman: And while on the other end, you are able to have deep debates and could probably write technology design documents yourself as well.

Vikrama Dhiman：而在另一端，你可以进行深入的辩论，也可以自己编写技术设计文档。

I think sometimes people get confused between data science.

我认为有时人们会对数据科学感到困惑。

And in different organizations, I see data science bucketed either in data or in technology.

在不同的组织中，我看到数据科学要么集中在数据上，要么集中在技术上。

Either is fine as long as you are clear on what your organization's framework is.

只要您清楚您的组织的框架是什么，这两种方法都可以。

Similarly then, there is strategy.

同样，还有策略。

Strategy is I think another area in product management which gets very confusing because there is obviously corporate strategy, there is business strategy, there's pricing strategy, there's strategy everywhere.

我认为战略是产品管理中的另一个非常令人困惑的领域，因为显然有公司战略，有业务战略，有定价战略，到处都有战略。

Product strategy for me is where you are able to define that while somebody defines that this is the mountain that you're going to climb, but okay, how are you going to climb that mountain is basically the product strategy piece.

对我来说，产品策略是你能够定义的地方，虽然有人定义这是你要攀登的山，但是好吧，你将如何攀登那座山基本上是产品策略部分。

Vikrama Dhiman: So you are not in charge of okay, are you focused on growth?

Vikrama Dhiman：所以你不负责，好吧，你专注于增长吗？

Are you focused on revenue?

您专注于收入吗？

Are you focused on profitability?

您是否专注于盈利能力？

That's someone's choice.

那是某人的选择。

Are you going to pick this country?

你会选择这个国家吗？

Are you going to pick that country?

你会选择那个国家吗？

But once that is picked, what are the user segments that you're going to focus on?

但一旦选择了这一点，您将重点关注哪些用户细分？

What are the needs of those user segments?

这些用户群的需求是什么？

How are we going to figure out what the right product for them will be?

我们如何找出适合他们的产品？

What is the order in which we are going to work on that?

我们的工作顺序是什么？

That whole piece of product strategy is with the product managers.

整个产品策略由产品经理负责。

And again, in the first case, you are basically going to rely on everyone to tell you, do this, do this, do this.

再说一次，在第一种情况下，你基本上会依赖每个人告诉你，这样做，这样做，这样做。

In second and in the level five cases, you are able to articulate a very coherent product strategy at a broad level as well.

在第二级和第五级的情况下，您也能够在广泛的层面上阐明非常连贯的产品策略。

Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing, thanks for sharing that.

Lenny Rachitsky：太棒了，谢谢分享。

I think for people that are trying to craft career ladder for product managers, this could help inform the way they think about this.

我认为对于那些试图为产品经理打造职业阶梯的人来说，这可以帮助他们了解这一点。

By the way, when we mentioned Crystal, for folks that have no idea who we're talking about, she was a early head of growth at Gojek back in the day.

顺便说一句，当我们提到 Crystal 时，对于那些不知道我们在谈论谁的人来说，她是当时 Gojek 的早期增长主管。

She was a previous guest on the podcast.

她是播客的前任嘉宾。

I always forget how to pronounce her last name exactly, but I think it's Widjaja, Crystal Widjaja.

我总是忘记她的姓氏如何准确发音，但我认为是 Widjaja，Crystal Widjaja。

Lenny Rachitsky: Widjaja?

莱尼·拉奇茨基：Widjaja？

Okay, okay.

好吧，好吧。

Great.

伟大的。

Going in a different direction, we're going to move to contrarian corner.

朝着不同的方向前进，我们将走向逆向角落。

I'm curious if there's anything that you believe that other people wouldn't agree with or generally just don't believe?

我很好奇是否有什么事情是你认为其他人不同意或一般不相信的？

Vikrama Dhiman: I used to think intent is the most important thing, right?

Vikrama Dhiman：我曾经认为意图是最重要的，对吧？

And when I was starting off, that used to be the advice that as long as your intent is right, even if some of your words are not landing, even if some of the comms are not landing, that will work out.

当我刚开始的时候，这曾经是这样的建议：只要你的意图是正确的，即使你的一些话没有落地，即使有些通讯没有落地，那就会成功。

What I've seen is that it's not enough.

我所看到的是这还不够。

Your actions, your behavior, and the way you communicate, the way you collaborate, that also has to communicate and show who you are as well.

你的行为、你的行为、你沟通的方式、你协作的方式，也必须传达和展示你是谁。

So intent is not enough.

所以意图还不够。

And that's a thing which I think a lot of people in my age group just don't get, but people who are slightly starting off their career, it resonates well with them.

我认为我这个年龄段的很多人都无法理解这一点，但对于那些刚刚开始职业生涯的人来说，这与他们产生了很好的共鸣。

Second thing I think where I feel that it's become, I don't know, is it contrarian or it's become politically incorrect, is that you still need to put in the effort and our number of hours is effort.

我认为我觉得它已经变得，我不知道，是逆向思维还是政治不正确的第二件事是，你仍然需要付出努力，而我们的时间就是努力。

Vikrama Dhiman: And I think that's one thing which has become very politically incorrect to say over the years when I was younger, it was the norm that yes, you will have to put in the effort, you will have to put in the hours to grow and improve your skills.

Vikrama Dhiman：我认为这是一件在我年轻的时候已经变得非常政治不正确的事情，这是常态，是的，你必须付出努力，你必须投入时间来成长和提高你的技能。

And it's not even about your growth in the company, it's just your own growth.

这甚至与你在公司的成长无关，而只是你自己的成长。

You have to spend the time, effort, and energy into growing.

你必须花费时间、精力和精力来成长。

I think a lot of that is getting lost in the debates between complete workaholism and just being not very serious about your growth at all.

我认为，在彻底的工作狂和根本不认真对待自己的成长之间的争论中，很多事情都被迷失了。

So I think those are the two that I find myself having to explain myself again and again and why I feel this way.

所以我认为我发现自己必须一次又一次地解释自己以及为什么我有这种感觉。

Lenny Rachitsky: I completely agree with that.

Lenny Rachitsky：我完全同意这一点。

I find a hugely strong correlation between hours you put into the work you do and success.

我发现你投入的工作时间与成功之间存在着非常强的相关性。

And I think there's been a return to okay, working hard is really important and you shouldn't be afraid of promoting working really hard.

我认为人们已经回到了好的状态，努力工作真的很重要，你不应该害怕提倡努力工作。

So we've actually gone through everything that I wanted to ask you.

所以我们实际上已经完成了我想问你的所有事情。

Before we get to our very exciting lightning round, is there anything else you wanted to share or is there anything you want to leave listeners with?

在我们开始激动人心的闪电回合之前，您还有什么想分享的，或者有什么想留给听众的吗？

Vikrama Dhiman: No, I think it has been great talking to.

Vikrama Dhiman：不，我认为与他交谈非常愉快。

I hope it was useful to people.

我希望它对人们有用。

I've tried to keep it real, but also in takeaway format.

我试图保持真实，但也以外卖的形式。

And if there are any questions that you have that I feel I have not answered, I'm happy to answer them.

如果您有任何我认为我没有回答的问题，我很乐意回答。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, amazing.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的，太棒了。

Well, we'll have people post in the comments if there's anything else they would love to ask you.

好吧，如果人们还有其他问题想问您，我们会让他们在评论中发表。

With that, we've reached our very exciting lightning round.

至此，我们进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。

Are you ready?

你准备好了吗？

Lenny Rachitsky: First question, what are two or three books that you've recommended most to other people?

Lenny Rachitsky：第一个问题，您向其他人推荐最多的两三本书是什么？

Vikrama Dhiman: The first book is a book which I feel is not quoted enough in product management community, is a book called Small Data by Martin Lindstrom.

Vikrama Dhiman：第一本书是一本我觉得在产品管理社区引用得不够多的书，是 Martin Lindstrom 写的一本叫《Small Data》的书。

This is a person who was an advertiser or marketeer who would go and make campaigns for big brands in different countries, and so would have usually very short time to get the pulse of that space and design a campaign around it.

这是一个广告商或营销人员，他们会去不同国家的大品牌开展活动，因此通常只有很短的时间来了解该空间的脉搏并围绕它设计活动。

And how he got insights very quickly from, and what are some of the takeaways that are there for people working in product space, not just product managers, but designers, researchers, strategy people, anyone really, I can't recommend that book more.

他如何快速从中获得见解，以及对产品领域工作的人们（不仅仅是产品经理，还有设计师、研究人员、战略人员，任何人）有哪些收获，我强烈推荐这本书。

And I've cited that book a lot internally.

我在内部多次引用过那本书。

Vikrama Dhiman: The second book that I recommend is Adam Grant's Originals.

Vikrama Dhiman：我推荐的第二本书是亚当·格兰特的《原创》。

I think it's a very important book.

我认为这是一本非常重要的书。

It changed a lot of things.

它改变了很多事情。

When I spoke about that I was going through this crisis of, oh, I'm behind so many things after joining Gojek, Originals was one book that I read which really, really helped me think about my growth and how I see myself.

当我谈到我正在经历这场危机时，哦，加入 Gojek 后我支持了很多事情，《Originals》是我读过的一本书，它真的非常帮助我思考自己的成长以及如何看待自己。

And anyone who is stuck or anyone who feels they are superstars, they are the innovators of the century kind of a thing, it's a book that gives you a very good reality check.

任何陷入困境的人或任何认为自己是超级巨星的人，他们都是本世纪的创新者之类的人，这本书可以给你一个很好的现实检验。

And the third book that I recommend is definitely Daniel Kahneman's Thinking, Fast and Slow.

我推荐的第三本书肯定是丹尼尔·卡尼曼的《思考，快与慢》。

I think especially the thinking slow part becomes very, very important piece as well.

我认为特别是思考缓慢的部分也变得非常非常重要。

Vikrama Dhiman: And the reason why change is hard, the reason why feedback is hard is because we are used to thinking fast and we are not used to thinking slow.

Vikrama Dhiman：改变之所以困难，反馈之所以困难，是因为我们习惯于快速思考，而不习惯缓慢思考。

While if you actually think slow, you'll actually welcome change and growth.

但如果你真的放慢脚步，你就会真正欢迎改变和成长。

Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

That book's come up a bunch actually recently on the podcast and it is always sitting under my laptop, holding up my laptop for these interviews.

这本书最近在播客上出现了很多，它总是放在我的笔记本电脑下面，在这些采访中举起我的笔记本电脑。

So I fully agree.

所以我完全同意。

Next question, do you have a favorite recent movie or TV show that you've really enjoyed?

下一个问题，您最近有最喜欢的电影或电视节目吗？

Vikrama Dhiman: I haven't seen a lot of movies recently, I think.

Vikrama Dhiman：我想我最近没有看很多电影。

But while I was on the flight back from Dubai, I saw Miss Congeniality again and I really, really enjoyed it.

但当我在从迪拜返回的航班上时，我再次见到了“适意小姐”，我真的非常非常喜欢它。

I thought it's a very fun movie, but also had a pretty good message.

我认为这是一部非常有趣的电影，但也传达了一个很好的信息。

I know it's probably not the movie which anyone would want to cited, but I think it's sometimes good to just watch good entertainment.

我知道这可能不是任何人都想引用的电影，但我认为有时只是观看精彩的娱乐节目也很好。

Lenny Rachitsky: That's quite the contrarian pick.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个相当逆向的选择。

Yeah, nobody has cited this movie, Miss Congeniality.

是的，没有人引用过这部电影，《相思小姐》。

This is a first, but I love it.

这是第一次，但我喜欢它。

It's way out there.

那里已经很远了。

I would never would've expected this.

我绝对不会想到会这样。

Vikrama Dhiman: In terms of TV shows, I think the show that I really go back to all the time is Schitt's Creek.

Vikrama Dhiman：就电视节目而言，我认为我真正经常回看的节目是 Schitt's Creek。

I think it's a show which operates at so many different levels without taking itself that seriously, and it just lands.

我认为这是一个在很多不同层面上运作的节目，但并没有那么认真地对待自己，它就落地了。

And especially as a product manager and as a leader who obsesses a lot about diversity, I think it did a fantastic job in showing different sides of motherhood, of the LGBTQIA communities, and also teenage girls figuring themselves out as well.

尤其是作为一名产品经理和一名非常关注多元化的领导者，我认为它在展示母性、LGBTQIA 社区以及少女如何认识自己的不同侧面方面做得非常出色。

I think it did a fantastic job.

我认为它做得非常出色。

Lenny Rachitsky: Do you have a favorite interview question that you like to ask candidates when you're hiring product managers especially?

Lenny Rachitsky：当你招聘产品经理时，你最喜欢问候选人的面试问题有哪些吗？

Vikrama Dhiman: So it's not really one question, but what I like to do with them is to brainstorm choices on an actual product.

Vikrama Dhiman：所以这并不是一个真正的问题，但我喜欢用它们来集思广益，对实际产品进行选择。

And I'll typically pick up a product that they use most often and then I will be like, "Okay, what if this product were to do this?

我通常会选择他们最常使用的产品，然后我会说，“好吧，如果这个产品能做到这一点怎么办？

Then what do you think, it makes sense?

那你觉得怎么样，有道理吗？

Don't think it makes sense?

不觉得有道理吗？

What about this?

这又如何呢？

Okay, how would it evolve in six months?

好吧，六个月后它会如何发展？

What would happen in 12 months and so on?" I think it gives you a far better insight into how would it be on working with them on a real case.

12 个月后会发生什么？”我认为这可以让您更好地了解与他们合作处理真实案例的情况。

And you also keep...

而你也一直...

And what I like about it is that you can keep going back deeper into it and develop it together.

我喜欢它的一点是，你可以不断地深入研究它并一起开发它。

So I typically try and pick product that I will also not have very strong opinions on so that it can become a two-way conversation.

因此，我通常会尝试选择我不会有强烈意见的产品，以便它可以成为双向对话。

Lenny Rachitsky: What do you actually look for in an answer that tells you, "Okay, this candidate is amazing" versus flags that are like, "Hmm, maybe not?"

Lenny Rachitsky：你实际上在寻找一个告诉你“好吧，这个候选人太棒了”的答案，而不是像“嗯，也许不是？”这样的标志。

Vikrama Dhiman: There are some obvious check marks that are they able to first abstract out and figure out what the overall goals for the product are, who the users for that product are, what would they be focusing on right now, whether this will align with that or not.

Vikrama Dhiman：有一些明显的检查标记，他们能够首先抽象出并弄清楚产品的总体目标是什么，该产品的用户是谁，他们现在会关注什么，这是否与此一致。

And then a reason backwards that okay, maybe this may not work, but something on these lines.

然后倒退一个理由，好吧，也许这可能行不通，但有些事情是这样的。

Are you obsessed about this feature or are you obsessed about okay, what this enables you to do?

您是否对这个功能着迷，或者您是否着迷于这个功能可以让您做什么？

So if this is what it enables you to do, then are you okay with considering some other options and so on?

因此，如果这就是它使您能够做的事情，那么您是否可以考虑其他一些选择等等？

So I think that's the direction which usually goes in the right way.

所以我认为这通常是正确的方向。

Lenny Rachitsky: Is there a favorite product you've recently discovered that you really love?

Lenny Rachitsky：您最近发现有一款您真正喜欢的最喜欢的产品吗？

Vikrama Dhiman: So the reason why I've not watched a lot of drama or TV recently is because I've discovered these short video apps through Instagram and all of these apps, they dub Chinese TV serials into English or there will be subtitles in English and they are delivered in TikTok style two-minute videos.

Vikrama Dhiman：所以我最近没有看很多戏剧或电视的原因是因为我通过Instagram发现了这些短视频应用程序和所有这些应用程序，他们将中国电视剧配音成英文，或者会有英文字幕，并且以TikTok风格的两分钟视频形式提供。

And it's a masterstroke in how the series are constructed.

这是该系列的构建方式的绝妙之举。

The first few episodes, which is like 10 episodes which is about 10 to 15 minutes, sets up the story in such a way that you have to unlock the next 10.

前几集大约有 10 集，大约 10 到 15 分钟，故事的设置方式是你必须解锁接下来的 10 集。

Vikrama Dhiman: And these videos are quite expensive.

Vikrama Dhiman：这些视频非常昂贵。

They end up, one series takes more than the entire cost of monthly cost of Netflix to view.

结果，一部连续剧的观看费用超过了 Netflix 每月的全部费用。

But it's just amazing how the whole product has been put, how all these products have been put together on unlocking the lamification aspects of it, the storytelling aspects of it, the content cutting part of it, and even the selection of the stories part of it.

但令人惊奇的是整个产品是如何放置的，所有这些产品如何组合在一起以解锁它的分层方面，它的讲故事方面，它的内容切割部分，甚至它的故事部分的选择。

And what I'm told is that once I've learned about it, I've also been reading about it, they're actually companies which are able to give you tools of where you can construct this app yourself.

我被告知，一旦我了解了它，我也一直在阅读相关内容，他们实际上是能够为你提供工具的公司，让你可以自己构建这个应用程序。

And multiple people, two-people, three-people companies are churning these out and earning a lot of profit from it as well.

多人、两人、三人的公司正在大量生产这些产品，并从中赚取大量利润。

Lenny Rachitsky: What is this called for people that want to check this out?

Lenny Rachitsky：对于想要检查这个的人来说，这叫什么？

Vikrama Dhiman: So you can start with DramaBox, you can start with Reels and so on.

Vikrama Dhiman：所以你可以从DramaBox开始，你可以从Reels开始等等。

And there are multiple of these.

并且有多个这样的。

And those of you who are very familiar with TikTok, you would've seen that some of these show you the first 10 episodes on TikTok and then they take you to their app to view the rest.

对于那些非常熟悉 TikTok 的人来说，您可能会看到其中一些会向您展示 TikTok 上的前 10 集，然后他们会带您到他们的应用程序以观看其余内容。

Lenny Rachitsky: Wow.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：哇。

I love so many unusual contrarian pieces of advice here, I love it.

我喜欢这里这么多不寻常的逆向建议，我喜欢它。

Two more questions.

还有两个问题。

Do you have a favorite life motto that you often come back to, share with friends or family, either in work or in life?

您是否有最喜欢的人生格言，并且在工作或生活中经常与朋友或家人分享？

Vikrama Dhiman: For me, the most important thing has been that I started my career very late in tech.

Vikrama Dhiman：对我来说，最重要的是我在科技领域的职业生涯起步很晚。

I was already 25.

我已经25岁了。

For the first several years, I worked in a small town in India.

最初几年，我在印度的一个小镇工作。

I came to Delhi only in 2013, and I joined Gojek in 2018.

我2013年才来到德里，2018年加入Gojek。

I think I've done reasonably well for myself.

我认为我自己已经做得相当不错了。

And it's never late to do or what do you want to do and what do you want to be.

做任何事情都不会晚，或者你想做什么、想成为什么。

I think that's the thing that I really, really believe in and I also advise in.

我认为这是我非常非常相信的事情，也是我提供建议的事情。

Especially as the world is aging and a lot of people are thinking about it, I would say that it's not too late ever.

特别是随着世界正在老龄化，很多人都在思考这个问题，我想说，现在还不算太晚。

You can be and do what you want right now.

你现在就可以做你想做的事。

Lenny Rachitsky: So good.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太好了。

It's not too late.

还不算太晚。

I really, really like that advice.

我真的非常喜欢这个建议。

My wife is an illustrator designer.

我的妻子是一名插画设计师。

She has a book she put out called Am I Overthinking This?

她出版了一本书，名为《我是不是想得太多了？》

It's in my background somewhere there.

它就在我背景的某个地方。

And she has a chart that communicates that exact message in a really cute way, and we'll try to link to it in the show notes.

她有一个图表，以一种非常可爱的方式传达了确切的信息，我们将尝试在节目笔记中链接到它。

Final question.

最后一个问题。

You live in Singapore, I know you travel a lot.

你住在新加坡，我知道你经常旅行。

But if someone were to come to Singapore, is there a food that you think they need to try that's unique to Singapore?

但如果有人来新加坡，您认为他们需要尝试新加坡独有的食物吗？

Vikrama Dhiman: Singapore?

Vikrama Dhiman：新加坡？

There are multiple.

有多个。

So Singapore is a melting pot of different cultures.

所以新加坡是不同文化的熔炉。

There are four official languages.

有四种官方语言。

And the only thing I will advise is depending on your taste buds, whatever you want to do, you should go and visit a Hawker Center.

我唯一建议的是，根据你的味蕾，无论你想做什么，你都应该去参观小贩中心。

And it's an amazing experience in itself.

这本身就是一次奇妙的经历。

And those of you who've seen Crazy Rich Asians, the first thing they do when they land in Singapore is go to the Hawker Center.

看过《摘金奇缘》的人，到达新加坡后做的第一件事就是去小贩中心。

So it's an experience of its kind.

所以这是一次独一无二的体验。

And if you are looking for a specific recommendation, go to Lau Pa Sat.

如果您正在寻找具体的推荐，请前往老巴刹。

If you are a fan of Indian, you'll get that.

如果你是印度人的粉丝，你就会明白这一点。

If you're a fan of Malay cuisine, you'll get that.

如果您喜欢马来美食，您就会明白。

If you're a fan of Singaporean Chinese, you'll get that.

如果你是新加坡华人的粉丝，你就会明白这一点。

So you pick what works for you.

所以你选择适合你的。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love that.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢这个。

Vikrama, I feel like we've produced both a lot of output and we're going to have really great outcomes from our conversation.

Vikrama，我觉得我们已经取得了很多成果，并且我们将从我们的对话中获得非常好的成果。

Thank you so much for being here.

非常感谢您来到这里。

Two final questions.

最后两个问题。

Where can folks find you online if they want to reach out and follow-up on any of the stuff we talked about?

如果人们想要联系并跟进我们讨论的任何内容，可以在哪里找到您？

And how can listeners be useful to you?

听众如何对你有用？

Vikrama Dhiman: Thank you, Lenny.

维克拉玛·迪曼：谢谢你，莱尼。

It's been great talking to you as well.

与你交谈也很高兴。

Hopefully, this turns out well.

希望结果很好。

You can reach out to me either on LinkedIn, Vikrama Dhiman, or you can reach out on Twitter.

您可以通过 LinkedIn、Vikrama Dhiman 或 Twitter 与我联系。

Twitter works better.

推特效果更好。

And the listeners can be useful to me by, well, just sharing whatever they feel.

听众可以通过分享他们的感受来对我有用。

And I continuously follow a lot of people, a lot of people who are not yet famous.

我一直在关注很多人，很多还没有出名的人。

Just tell me what your story is, just tell me what you are working on.

只要告诉我你的故事是什么，告诉我你正在做什么。

And as long as you are passionate about it, I will try and find time.

只要你有热情，我就会尽力挤出时间。

Maybe I cannot talk to everyone, but I'll definitely try and find to chat with you and listen out and support or connect you to someone who can help support you.

也许我无法与每个人交谈，但我一定会尝试与您聊天，倾听并支持您，或将您与可以帮助支持您的人联系起来。

Lenny Rachitsky: That's a very generous offer, I think a lot of people are going to take you up on that.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个非常慷慨的提议，我想很多人都会接受你的。

Vikrama, thank you so much for being here.

维克拉玛，非常感谢你来到这里。

Bye, everyone.: Thank you so much for listening.

再见，大家：非常感谢您的聆听。

If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.

如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.

您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。

中文为机器翻译，仅供参考。