An inside look at how Miro builds product | Varun Parmar (CPO of Miro)

Varun Parmar: Every single day, every single time somebody is pushing your code to production and you're releasing a feature or an enhancement, you are making the product better or you're making the product worse, but the products never remain same.

Varun Parmar：每一天，每次有人将你的代码投入生产，而你发布一个功能或增强功能，你要么让产品变得更好，要么让产品变得更糟，但产品永远不会保持不变。

So with every release that your competitor is making and every release that you're making, you are either making chess points, moves against them, positive points, or you're going negative.

因此，对于你的竞争对手所做的每一次发布以及你所做的每一次发布，你要么获得棋分，要么对他们不利，要么获得积极的积分，要么获得消极的积分。

I think that framework, it actually drives an insane amount of clarity in terms of what you're doing and what the impact is going to be.

我认为这个框架实际上让你在做什么以及将产生什么影响方面变得非常清晰。

Lenny: Welcome to Lenny's Podcast, where I interview world-class product leaders and growth experts to learn from their hard-won experiences building and growing today's most successful products.

莱尼：欢迎来到莱尼的播客，我在这里采访了世界一流的产品领导者和增长专家，学习他们来之不易的构建和发展当今最成功产品的经验。

Today my guest is Varun Parmar.

今天我的客人是瓦伦·帕尔玛。

Varun is chief product Officer at Miro, and prior to Miro, he was senior vice president and chief product officer at Box.

Varun 是 Miro 的首席产品官，在 Miro 之前，他曾担任 Box 的高级副总裁兼首席产品官。

As I share with Varun at the start of our chat, I've always been really curious about the product culture at Miro, partly because everyone I've ever met from Miro has been super interesting and super smart, and partly because they've been able to grow as a business and a product in an incredibly competitive market.

正如我在聊天开始时与 Varun 分享的那样，我一直对 Miro 的产品文化感到非常好奇，部分原因是我在 Miro 遇到的每个人都非常有趣且超级聪明，部分原因是他们能够在竞争异常激烈的市场中作为业务和产品不断发展。

Lenny: In our conversation, we get really deep into the product values and principles at Miro, their product development process, how Varun approaches competitive threats, how a bimonthly company-wide product demo ritual led to saving months of engineering work on a feature, plus insights into how Miro got started, how they grow today, and what their product team has learned about working with a large sales org.

Lenny：在我们的谈话中，我们深入了解了 Miro 的产品价值观和原则、他们的产品开发流程、Varun 如何应对竞争威胁、每两个月一次的全公司产品演示仪式如何节省了数月的功能工程工作量，以及对 Miro 如何开始、他们今天如何成长以及他们的产品团队在与大型销售组织合作方面学到了什么的见解。

Varun is amazing, I learned a lot, and I hope you find it as interesting as I did.

Varun 太棒了，我学到了很多东西，我希望你和我一样觉得它很有趣。

With that, I bring you Varun Parmar after a short word from our sponsors.

在我们的赞助商简短致辞后，我为您带来了瓦伦·帕尔玛 (Varun Parmar)。

Lenny: Today's episode is brought to you by Miro, an online collaborative whiteboard that's designed specifically for teams like yours.

Lenny：今天的节目是由 Miro 为您带来的，Miro 是一款专为像您这样的团队设计的在线协作白板。

I have a quick request.

我有一个快速请求。

Head on over to my Miro board at miro.com/lenny and let me know which guests you'd want me to have on this year.

请访问 miro.com/lenny 上的 Miro 板，让我知道您今年希望我邀请哪些嘉宾。

I've already gotten a bunch of great suggestions, which you'll see when you go there, so just keep it coming.

我已经收到了很多很好的建议，当你去那里时你会看到这些建议，所以请继续提供。

While you're on the Miro board, I encourage you to play around with the tool.

当您在 Miro 板上时，我鼓励您尝试使用该工具。

It's a great shared space to capture ideas, get feedback, and collaborate with your colleagues on anything that you're working on.

这是一个很棒的共享空间，可以用来捕捉想法、获取反馈以及与同事就您正在处理的任何事情进行协作。

For example, with Miro, you can plan out next quarter's entire product strategy.

例如，通过Miro，您可以规划下季度的整个产品策略。

You can start by brainstorming, using sticky notes, live reactions, a voting tool, even an estimation app to scope out your team's sprints.

您可以从集思广益开始，使用便利贴、实时反应、投票工具，甚至估算应用程序来确定团队的冲刺范围。

Then your whole distributed team can come together around wire frames, draw ideas with a pen tool, and then put full mocks right into the Miro board.

然后，您的整个分布式团队可以围绕线框聚集在一起，使用钢笔工具绘制想法，然后将完整的模拟直接放入 Miro 板中。

Lenny: With one of Miro's ready-made templates, you can go from discovery and research to product roadmaps to customer journey flows to final mocks, all in Miro.

Lenny：使用 Miro 的现成模板之一，您可以从发现和研究到产品路线图、客户旅程流程再到最终模拟，所有这些都在 Miro 中进行。

Head on over to miro.com/lenny to leave your suggestions.

请访问 miro.com/lenny 留下您的建议。

That's M-I-R-O.com/lenny.

那是 M-I-R-O.com/lenny。

This episode is brought to you by Braintrust, where the world's most innovative companies go to find talent fast so that they can innovate faster.

本集由 Braintrust 为您带来，世界上最具创新力的公司都在其中快速寻找人才，以便更快地进行创新。

Let's be honest, it's a lot of work to build a company and if you want to stay ahead of the game, you need to be able to hire the right talent quickly and confidently.

老实说，建立一家公司需要做很多工作，如果您想在竞争中保持领先地位，您需要能够快速、自信地聘用合适的人才。

Braintrust is the first decentralized talent network where you can find, hire and manage high quality contractors in engineering, design and product for a fraction of the cost of agencies.

Braintrust 是第一个去中心化的人才网络，您可以在这里找到、雇用和管理工程、设计和产品方面的高质量承包商，而费用仅为代理机构的一小部分。

Braintrust charges a flat rate of only 10%, unlike agency fees of up to 70%, so you can make your budget go four times further.

Braintrust 只收取 10% 的统一费率，与高达 70% 的代理费不同，因此您可以使您的预算多出四倍。

Lenny: Plus they're the only network that takes 0% of what the talent makes, so they're able to attract and retain the world's best tech talent.

Lenny：此外，他们是唯一一个只收取 0% 人才收入的网络，因此他们能够吸引并留住世界上最优秀的技术人才。

Take it from DoorDash, Airbnb, Plaid, and hundreds of other high growth startups that have shaved their hiring process from months to weeks at less than a quarter of the cost by hiring through Braintrust network of 20,000 high quality vetted candidates ready to work.

以 DoorDash、Airbnb、Plaid 和其他数百家高增长初创公司为例，通过 Braintrust 网络招聘 20,000 名经过审查的高素质候选人，这些公司将招聘流程从数月缩短至数周，成本不到四分之一。

Whether you're looking to fill in gaps, upskill your staff or build a team for that dream project that finally got funded, contact Braintrust and you'll get matched with three candidates in just 48 hours.

无论您是想填补空缺、提高员工技能还是为最终获得资助的梦想项目组建团队，请联系 Braintrust，您将在短短 48 小时内找到三名候选人。

Visit useBraintrust.com/lenny or find them in my show notes for today's episode.

请访问 useBraintrust.com/lenny 或在我今天这一集的节目笔记中找到它们。

That's usebraintrust.com/lenny for when you need talent yesterday.

当您昨天需要人才时，这就是 usebraintrust.com/lenny。

Varun, welcome to the podcast.

瓦伦，欢迎来到播客。

Varun Parmar: Thank you, Lenny.

瓦伦·帕尔玛：谢谢你，莱尼。

So excited to be here.

很高兴来到这里。

Thanks for having me.

谢谢你有我。

Lenny: I'm really excited to have you here.

莱尼：我很高兴你能来到这里。

I've been looking forward to having a chance to dig into Miro's product culture and the way Miro works for a while.

我一直期待有机会深入了解 Miro 的产品文化和 Miro 的工作方式一段时间。

We've actually had a few guests, ex-Miro...

我们实际上有一些客人，前米罗……

Mironeers, is that what you call yourselves?

Mironeers，你们就是这么称呼自己的吗？

Lenny: Okay.

莱尼：好的。

Mironeers.

米罗内斯。

So we had Elena Verna on the podcast, who's amazing, and Barbara who I think worked in marketing and everyone I've always met from Miro has been just really smart and really interesting and it just feels like you guys have a really interesting product culture that I haven't felt like has been shared a lot, and so I have a bunch of stuff I want to dig into there.

我们的播客中有埃琳娜·维娜（Elena Verna），她很棒，还有我认为从事营销工作的芭芭拉（Barbara），以及我在米罗（Miro）遇到的每个人都非常聪明，非常有趣，感觉你们有一个非常有趣的产品文化，我觉得没有被分享很多，所以我有很多东西我想深入研究。

One question I have at the bat, you guys have a really interesting history and specifically the way your company's structured, which is that you're collocated in Amsterdam and San Francisco.

我有一个问题，你们有一段非常有趣的历史，特别是你们公司的结构方式，即你们在阿姆斯特丹和旧金山办公。

First of all, is that correct?

首先，这是正确的吗？

Varun Parmar: The company is a global company, so we've got 12 different hubs.

Varun Parmar：该公司是一家全球性公司，因此我们有 12 个不同的中心。

We have multiple offices in US, four different offices, and then multiple hubs in Europe as well, and presence in AsiaPac as well.

我们在美国设有多个办事处，四个不同的办事处，然后在欧洲设有多个中心，并在亚太地区设有办事处。

I think by now we have a global footprint, yeah.

我想现在我们的足迹已经遍布全球，是的。

Lenny: Got it.

莱尼：明白了。

A question I wanted to ask off the bat is just how has that cross-cultural approach to product teams impacted the way that you guys built product and the way the company operates?

我想立即问的一个问题是，产品团队的跨文化方法如何影响你们构建产品的方式以及公司的运营方式？

Varun Parmar: The one thing that's really interesting, Lenny, around the way Miro is set up is that our product organization is actually based in Europe and our go-to-market organization is worldwide.

Varun Parmar：Lenny，Miro 的建立方式中真正有趣的一件事是，我们的产品组织实际上位于欧洲，而我们的市场营销组织则位于全球范围内。

Our product management team, our designers, our engineers are located across three different hubs in Europe.

我们的产品管理团队、设计师、工程师分布在欧洲的三个不同中心。

What that sort of leads to is a couple of practices that we have as part of our culture.

这导致了我们文化中的一些做法。

The first one is practicing empathy to gain insights.

第一个是练习同理心以获得洞察力。

It's not just practicing empathy in terms of customers and figuring out what customer pain points and problems we can solve, but given our distributed nature in terms of having a global footprint and a lot of our go to market teams, folks in sales and marketing and customer success are in different continents or geographies, we have to make sure that we actually practice that internally.

这不仅仅是在客户方面练习同理心并找出我们可以解决哪些客户痛点和问题，而且考虑到我们在全球范围内的分布性，以及我们的许多市场团队、销售和营销人员以及客户成功人员分布在不同的大陆或地区，我们必须确保我们在内部实际实践这一点。

When we are interacting with folks, let's say in San Francisco, and those folks are out there meeting some of our large customers and stuff, how do we, in the product organization, understand their perspective, and bring that perspective into how we design, prioritize and build products?

当我们与人们互动时，比如说在旧金山，那些人在那里会见我们的一些大客户和员工，我们在产品组织中如何理解他们的观点，并将这种观点带入我们设计、优先级和构建产品的方式中？

I think that's one thing that's unique.

我认为这是独一无二的一件事。

Varun Parmar: I would say the other thing that's less to do with the location, but I think is sort of the core cultural value or philosophy that Andre, who's the founder and CEO has instilled in all of us, is practicing teamwork, how do we actually come together as a team, and bring down the silos that might exist across functions?

Varun Parmar：我想说的另一件事与地点关系不大，但我认为创始人兼首席执行官安德烈向我们所有人灌输的核心文化价值观或理念是实践团队合作，我们如何真正作为一个团队走到一起，并消除跨职能部门可能存在的孤岛？

I'll talk a little bit around how we are structured in the product organization so that it's a cross-functional perspective we bring to everything that we're doing because we believe the best work happens when we bring different diverse perspectives to the problem and then co-create the outcome that the customer is looking for.

我将稍微讨论一下我们在产品组织中的结构，以便我们为我们所做的一切带来跨职能的视角，因为我们相信，当我们对问题提出不同的观点，然后共同创造客户正在寻找的结果时，最好的工作就会发生。

Lenny: I want to pull on these threads actually real quick.

莱尼：我想快速地拉动这些线索。

You talked about this value of empathy and the importance of having empathy across...

您谈到了同理心的价值以及同理心的重要性......

because you guys are located in different locations and have different cultures, and also this idea of teamwork.

因为你们位于不同的地点，有不同的文化，还有团队合作的理念。

What's something that you've done that helps you do that, either build empathy and maintain empathy across teams or make sure that people work in teams and not like, "Hey, there's this other team over there doing something else"?

您所做的哪些事情可以帮助您做到这一点，或者在团队之间建立同理心并保持同理心，或者确保人们在团队中工作而不是像“嘿，还有另一个团队在那里做其他事情”？

Varun Parmar: One of the most powerful things that I've seen work is the questions that you ask, the questions that you ask when you're going through product review or you are going to sit down and talk to someone and trying to understand why did they prioritize something over the other and was it something that was done through interactions they've had with folks internally or externally?

Varun Parmar：我见过的最有效的事情之一就是你提出的问题，当你进行产品审查或你要坐下来与某人交谈并试图理解他们为什么优先考虑某些事情而不是其他事情时提出的问题，以及这些问题是通过他们与内部或外部人员的互动来完成的吗？

I think it's the set of questions to ask in terms of how did they get to where they are today and was it informed by understanding of the insights that collectively the organization has?

我认为这是一系列问题，涉及他们如何达到今天的水平，以及是否通过理解组织集体拥有的见解而获得信息？

Was it informed by their understanding of where the market is evolving, where the competition is going.

他们是否了解市场正在演变、竞争将走向何方？

Varun Parmar: Was it informed through the series of insights they have, either through inbound feedback that's coming through our different channels where customers are giving feedback or some outbound interactions that they've had?

Varun Parmar：是通过他们拥有的一系列见解来了解的吗？无论是通过客户提供反馈的不同渠道提供的入站反馈，还是他们进行的一些出站互动？

I think just trying to double click and getting to the details in terms of what insight led them to recommend certain things or make a left turn or a right turn is where I think is the most powerful way to make sure that those things are informed through practicing empathy internally and externally.

我认为，只要尝试双击并获取详细信息，了解是什么洞察力导致他们推荐某些事物或左转或右转，我认为这是确保通过内部和外部练习同理心了解这些事情的最有力方法。

Lenny: Got it.

莱尼：明白了。

There's this kind of cultural value of just assuming good intention and asking questions to understand where someone came from.

假设良好的意图并提出问题以了解某人来自哪里，这是一种文化价值。

I don't know if you'll have something off the top of your head, but is there a story or an example of that comes to mind where that was done well or not done well, I don't know, in something you recently were building?

我不知道你是否会想到一些东西，但是你是否想到过一个故事或例子，在你最近正在构建的东西中，我不知道做得好或做得不好？

Varun Parmar: Maybe there are certain things, for example, anytime we're trying to build a new experience, one of the approach we want to take is very quickly validate that our original hypothesis, is that sound or not.

Varun Parmar：也许有一些事情，例如，每当我们尝试构建新体验时，我们想要采取的方法之一就是快速验证我们最初的假设是否合理。

We are big fans of the Design Sprint framework, what Jake Knapp has done I think is really amazing.

我们是 Design Sprint 框架的忠实粉丝，我认为 Jake Knapp 所做的事情真的很棒。

In a short five-day window, you can get a small set of people to quickly mock up a concept, convert it into some sort of a prototype and then go out there and get some sort of a validation.

在短短的五天时间内，您可以让一小群人快速模拟一个概念，将其转换为某种原型，然后出去进行某种验证。

Oftentimes when we are working on some of these new things, we have our product teams that are focused on zero to one initiatives, run this five-day initiative, and at the end of it we say, "Oh, this is great.

通常，当我们从事一些新事物时，我们的产品团队专注于零到一的计划，运行这个为期五天的计划，最后我们说，“哦，这太棒了。

Who did you get insight from?" There's a capability that we recently released, it's called Miro Talktrack, which essentially allows you to asynchronously do asynchronous collaboration by recording audio video on top of a Miro board.

你从谁那里得到了启示？”我们最近发布了一项功能，称为 Miro Talktrack，它本质上允许您通过在 Miro 板上录制音频视频来异步进行异步协作。

Varun Parmar: We had two fundamental choices we could make.

Varun Parmar：我们可以做出两个基本选择。

One, we could go down the path of what everyone's doing where you could do a screen recording and then spit out a series of videos, like pixels being captured.

第一，我们可以沿着每个人都在做的事情走，你可以进行屏幕录制，然后吐出一系列视频，例如捕获的像素。

Or what we did was we actually went down a different path and the path that we went down was we basically synchronized the movement of the board.

或者我们所做的是，我们实际上走了一条不同的路径，而我们所走的路径基本上是同步棋盘的运动。

Let's say Lenny's presenting a board, some template he's created in terms of best practices for PMs, but he wants to have some sort of a talk track on top of it, an audio video feed.

假设 Lenny 正在展示一个看板，这是他根据 PM 最佳实践创建的一些模板，但他希望在其之上有某种谈话轨道，即音频视频源。

What we are doing is we're actually capturing the movement of the board that Lenny's going through along with the video talk track that's on top.

我们所做的实际上是捕捉莱尼正在经历的木板运动以及顶部的视频谈话轨道。

The reason why we did that was because we had an insight that came through some of our interviews.

我们这样做的原因是因为我们通过一些采访获得了洞察力。

Varun Parmar: What our users want to do is they want to use Miro for collaboration.

Varun Parmar：我们的用户想要做的是他们想要使用 Miro 进行协作。

While communication is an important aspect of how teams come together, where we believe our sweet spot is that we want people to use Miro for collaboration.

虽然沟通是团队合作的一个重要方面，但我们相信我们的最佳点是我们希望人们使用 Miro 进行协作。

By making sure that they could actually use a video recording and while the video recording is playing, they could add in a sticky note, they could add in a comment, they could actually give a reaction.

通过确保他们实际上可以使用视频录制，并且在播放视频录制时，他们可以添加便签，他们可以添加评论，他们实际上可以做出反应。

We were able to develop this insight by practicing empathy as part of the Design Sprint framework when we went and started to show our original concept and we walled and built on top of that.

当我们开始展示我们最初的概念，并在此基础上进行构建时，我们能够通过练习同理心作为设计冲刺框架的一部分来发展这种洞察力。

Lenny: That is a really cool story.

莱尼：那是一个非常酷的故事。

That came out of this Sprint framework, these five-day sprint approach.

这是来自这个 Sprint 框架，这些为期五天的 Sprint 方法。

Lenny: That is cool.

莱尼：那很酷。

I got to have that guy on this podcast.

我必须让那个人出现在这个播客上。

Jake Knapp, you said, right?

杰克·纳普，你说的是吧？

Varun Parmar: Yes, yes, yes.

瓦伦·帕尔玛：是的，是的，是的。

I can text him right now and I can make the introductions, yes.

我现在可以给他发短信，我可以做介绍，是的。

Lenny: Let's pull him right into this podcast live, tell us how the Sprint process works.

Lenny：让我们把他拉到这个播客现场，告诉我们 Sprint 流程是如何运作的。

That is awesome.

那太棒了。

This connects a little bit to another question I wanted to ask around the top is, you guys are in a really competitive space and it feels like Miro was very early in online collaborative whiteboarding space and then I think during COVID it just became huge, with the remote work exploding.

这与我想问的另一个问题有些联系，你们正处于一个竞争非常激烈的领域，感觉 Miro 很早就进入在线协作白板领域，然后我认为在新冠疫情期间，随着远程工作的爆炸式增长，它变得巨大。

Like, "Holy shit, everyone needs this immediately." Over the years, many companies have come into the space that you are all in and it feels like Miro continues to do extremely well.

就像，“天哪，每个人都立即需要这个。”多年来，许多公司已经进入了你们所处的领域，感觉米罗继续做得非常好。

I remember when Figma launched FigJam, there was a lot of just like, "Miro's dead.

我记得当 Figma 推出 FigJam 时，有很多人都在说，“米罗死了。

Figma's getting into the space, they're juggernaut, game over." Clearly that's not been the case and it just feels like, I don't know what it is internally that you all do that continues to allow you to compete and continue to innovate in the space.

Figma 正在进入太空，他们是主宰者，游戏结束了。”显然情况并非如此，我只是觉得，我不知道你们内部做了什么，才能继续让你们在这个领域竞争并继续创新。

I'm curious just like is there something to how Miro approaches competition and also just, I don't know, the way they approach these sorts of challenges that is unique or interesting that you can share?

我很好奇米罗是如何应对竞争的，而且我不知道他们应对此类挑战的方式是独特的还是有趣的，你可以分享吗？

Varun Parmar: If you look at the mission for Miro, we empower teams to create the next big thing and our focus is to enable teams that are innovating, and generally innovation happens at the intersection of a bunch of cross-functional folks coming together.

Varun Parmar：如果你看看 Miro 的使命，我们会授权团队创造下一个伟大的事物，我们的重点是支持创新的团队，而通常创新发生在一群跨职能人员聚集在一起的交叉点上。

Like we discussed, folks in product management or design or engineering or analytics or product marketing or research.

就像我们讨论的那样，从事产品管理、设计、工程、分析、产品营销或研究的人们。

What we find, Lenny, is that there are a lot of tools out there and those tools are generally sort of focused on a particular persona and maybe they're trying to solve the needs of a designer and a designer has a workflow that they're trying to do and they're using a specific tool and they sit at the adjacency of extending that core use case.

Lenny，我们发现有很多工具，这些工具通常专注于特定的角色，也许他们正在尝试解决设计师的需求，而设计师有一个他们正在尝试做的工作流程，他们正在使用特定的工具，并且他们位于扩展核心用例的附近。

The fundamental value that Miro provides is that we enable teams.

Miro 提供的基本价值是我们为团队提供支持。

I think what's unique about our product, and we can talk about the capabilities and roadmaps and use cases that we are investing in and we already have as part of the product, is that we take a team-centric lens.

我认为我们产品的独特之处在于我们采取了以团队为中心的视角，我们可以谈论我们正在投资的、我们已经拥有的作为产品一部分的功能、路线图和用例。

Varun Parmar: So we're not saying, "Hey, we're building a tool that just works for designers," or "Hey, we're building a tool that just works for engineers." Because we fundamentally believe that innovation happens when cross-functional teams come together.

Varun Parmar：所以我们并不是说，“嘿，我们正在构建一个只适合设计师的工具”，或者“嘿，我们正在构建一个只适合工程师的工具”。因为我们从根本上相信，当跨职能团队聚集在一起时，创新就会发生。

When you look at the problem through that lens, you realize that you have to actually architect your solution.

当您从这个角度看待问题时，您会意识到您必须实际构建解决方案。

You have to think about the use cases and you have to go and prioritize certain experiences that are different and our customers see value in that, right?

您必须考虑用例，并且必须优先考虑某些不同的体验，我们的客户会看到其中的价值，对吗？

I think that's probably one sort of big macro aspect of how we think about our capabilities and products and why our customers think of us differently.

我认为这可能是我们如何看待我们的能力和产品以及为什么我们的客户对我们有不同看法的一种宏观方面。

I'd say that's say one point.

我想说的是这一点。

Varun Parmar: I think the second thing is Miro is actually used obviously by teams that are creating these innovative products and we actually have broad applicability across industries and verticals.

Varun Parmar：我认为第二件事是，Miro 实际上显然被创建这些创新产品的团队所使用，而且我们实际上在各个行业和垂直领域具有广泛的适用性。

While some tools might be hyper-focused on digital experiences and Miro's has great offerings there in terms of core capabilities, what we find is that Miro is used equally by companies in manufacturing, by companies in healthcare, by companies in architecture and engineering and construction functions, by companies that are in aerospace, governmental agencies and medical agencies and so on and so forth.

虽然有些工具可能过度专注于数字体验，而 Miro 在核心功能方面提供了出色的产品，但我们发现，制造业公司、医疗保健公司、建筑、工程和施工职能公司、航空航天公司、政府机构和医疗机构等都同样使用 Miro。

I think the platform is actually much more agnostic in terms of its capabilities and what we offer that actually makes it more accessible and appealing to organizations that want to go beyond just digital experiences.

我认为该平台实际上在其功能和我们提供的功能方面更加不可知，这实际上使其对于那些想要超越数字体验的组织来说更容易访问和更具吸引力。

Varun Parmar: Then I would say finally there are capabilities that are available very, very uniquely to Miro that are valued by our users.

Varun Parmar：那么我想说的是，最终 Miro 可以使用一些非常非常独特的功能，这些功能受到我们用户的重视。

That again is a big reason people come to Miro.

这又是人们来到米罗的一个重要原因。

For example, if Lenny's trying to conduct a big workshop with a bunch of product folks and he wants to facilitate that workshop and wants to have certain folks focus on one part of the board and while others focus on the other part, then there are some advanced capabilities that enable certain use cases like workshops.

例如，如果 Lenny 试图与一群产品人员一起举办大型研讨会，并且他想要促进该研讨会，并希望某些人专注于董事会的一个部分，而其他人则专注于另一部分，那么有一些高级功能可以支持某些用例，例如研讨会。

Or if you want to use Miro for some team rituals or from some agile practices, there are core set of capabilities that you could use the product for that are missing in some of the other capabilities.

或者，如果您想使用 Miro 进行某些团队仪式或进行某些敏捷实践，您可以使用该产品来实现某些其他功能中缺少的一组核心功能。

I would say a combination of all of those three things continue to drive differentiation.

我想说，所有这三件事的结合将继续推动差异化。

I would say on top of that, we are a big fan of our community and we believe that community love is what drives us.

我想说的是，最重要的是，我们是社区的忠实粉丝，我们相信社区的爱是我们前进的动力。

That's the fuel that keeps us going every single day.

这是我们每天前进的燃料。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

Just to summarize and I was taking notes as you're chatting, just thinking about what allows you all to continue to do well in the market, considering all the competition constantly coming at you.

总而言之，我在你们聊天时做笔记，思考什么能让你们继续在市场上取得好成绩，考虑到所有的竞争不断向你们袭来。

One, as you mentioned, just there's kind of like a innate multi-functional architecture which is hard for someone to copy if they weren't built from that without the start.

其一，正如您所提到的，有点像一种天生的多功能架构，如果不是从一开始就建立起来的，那么人们就很难复制它。

Two, it sounds like you are focusing on a wide spectrum of personas and it's not just tech employees basically.

第二，听起来您关注的是广泛的角色，而不仅仅是技术员工。

Also, just there's specific features that end up being really important that maybe people have a hard time building and then this last piece of the community.

另外，有些特定的功能最终变得非常重要，也许人们很难构建，然后是社区的最后一部分。

Awesome.

惊人的。

Lenny: Let's dig into the product team a little bit and understand how you all build product and structure product team.

Lenny：让我们深入了解一下产品团队，了解你们如何构建产品和构建产品团队。

How many PMs are there at Miro?

Miro 有多少位 PM？

Then just broadly, how many employees, just to give people a set of, little bit of context?

那么，从广义上讲，有多少员工，只是为了给人们提供一些背景信息？

Varun Parmar: Give or take about 1,800 employees at Miro globally across all of the 12 hubs, and specifically in terms of the number of product managers, there are over 450 PMs in the team.

Varun Parmar：Miro 在全球 12 个中心拥有约 1,800 名员工，特别是在产品经理的数量方面，团队中有超过 450 名产品经理。

Lenny: Then how's the product team structured?

Lenny：那么产品团队的架构是怎样的？

Is it like outcome oriented?

是不是以结果为导向？

Is it product area oriented?

是否以产品领域为导向？

Is it user persona oriented?

是否以用户角色为导向？

Is it something else?

难道是别的什么？

How do you think about the structure of the product team?

您如何看待产品团队的架构？

Varun Parmar: Yeah, so I would say it's maybe a hybrid structure that we have, but the foundation of the team setup is around persona.

Varun Parmar：是的，所以我想说这可能是我们拥有的混合结构，但团队设置的基础是角色。

We have what we refer to as streams, some companies refer to as domains, but essentially it's a set of individuals that are focused on solving the problems for a key persona.

我们拥有所谓的流，有些公司称之为域，但本质上它是一组专注于解决关键角色问题的个人。

Just to give you an example, we have a stream that's focused on enterprise, and in enterprise we are looking at the IT admin persona, we're looking at the security persona or the compliance persona.

举个例子，我们有一个专注于企业的流，在企业中，我们正在关注 IT 管理员角色、安全角色或合规角色。

There are a set of folks who are creating a roadmap and innovating for that audience.

有一群人正在为受众制定路线图并进行创新。

There's another stream which is called platform where we are going after the developer install base, folks that want to use Miro as a platform and build apps that they can actually make available either on the marketplace for everyone to use or they could be developers that are inside of a large organization and they're trying to integrate Miro with their specific use cases and workflows and business systems.

还有另一个流，称为平台，我们要关注的是开发人员安装基础，那些想要使用 Miro 作为平台并构建应用程序的人，他们实际上可以在市场上提供给每个人使用，或者他们可能是大型组织内部的开发人员，他们正在尝试将 Miro 与他们的特定用例、工作流程和业务系统集成。

That's another sort of stream that's focused on that, and there are a couple of other streams like that.

这是另一种专注于此的流，还有其他一些类似的流。

Varun Parmar: Then finally there are some just horizontal sort of streams, if you will.

Varun Parmar：如果你愿意的话，最后还有一些水平类型的流。

We have a big focus given that we are a PLG-led company around growth and self-serve business.

鉴于我们是一家由 PLG 领导的公司，我们非常关注增长和自助服务业务。

We've got a stream that's actually focused on our core internal infrastructure.

我们有一个实际上专注于我们核心内部基础设施的流。

We've got a stream that's actually focused on data science that's doing all of the magic that we started to release in terms of Miro AI, et cetera, et cetera.

我们有一个实际上专注于数据科学的流，它正在实现我们开始在 Miro AI 等方面发布的所有魔力。

I would say it's a combination of those.

我想说这是这些的结合。

At the heart of it is we are focused on personas and we are sort of aligning people around solving problems and creating value for that persona.

其核心是我们专注于人物角色，我们在某种程度上让人们围绕解决问题并为该人物角色创造价值。

Lenny: That is really interesting.

莱尼：这真的很有趣。

One of the downsides of a persona-based approach I imagine is that features keep getting added that solve that user's pain points.

我认为基于角色的方法的缺点之一是不断添加功能来解决用户的痛点。

What have you learned about keeping the product consistent and having a holistic perspective on the experience?

关于保持产品一致性和全面看待体验，您学到了什么？

How do you address Those challenges?

您如何应对这些挑战？

Varun Parmar: Architecturally, there are two sort of things that we have done that allow us to not pigeonhole ourselves into that specific way of working.

Varun Parmar：从架构上来说，我们做了两件事，让我们不必将自己束缚在特定的工作方式中。

I completely agree with you, you could lead to that.

我完全同意你的观点，你可能会导致这一点。

The first one is actually when we think about the product org, we call our org, it's called AMPED, A-M-P-E-D.

第一个实际上是当我们考虑产品组织时，我们称我们的组织为 AMPED，A-M-P-E-D。

This is actually going back to our earlier point, Lenny, we had around what's unique about the product culture, what's unique about Miro, and we talked about teams coming together, removing barriers or silos cross-functionally.

这实际上回到了我们之前的观点，Lenny，我们讨论了产品文化的独特之处，Miro 的独特之处，我们讨论了团队聚集在一起，消除跨职能的障碍或孤岛。

AMPED stands for analytics, marketing, product, engineering and design.

AMPED 代表分析、营销、产品、工程和设计。

And everything that we do in the product org, when we say the product org, we actually don't meet product managers.

我们在产品组织中所做的一切，当我们说产品组织时，我们实际上并没有遇到产品经理。

We actually don't mean product managers, designers and engineers.

我们实际上并不是指产品经理、设计师和工程师。

What we mean by product org in Miro is this AMPED function.

Miro 中的产品组织指的是 AMPED 函数。

By having this cross-functional representation where product marketing team is deeply, deeply embedded inside of each of these streams, what we do is that we have different perspectives that come in where they say, "Oh, wait a second, did you think about the end user experience?"

通过这种跨职能的表示，产品营销团队深深地嵌入到每个流中，我们所做的就是我们有不同的观点，他们会说，“哦，等一下，你考虑过最终用户体验吗？”

Varun Parmar: If you think about the end user experience, you know have someone on the team that says, "Wait a second, did you actually think about the enterprise requirements or what's needed in the largest corporation?" I think the unique setup of bringing these cross-functional folks allows us to sort of course correct.

Varun Parmar：如果您考虑最终用户体验，您就会知道团队中有人会说：“等一下，您是否真的考虑过企业需求或最大的公司需要什么？”我认为引入这些跨职能人员的独特设置使我们能够在某种程度上正确地进行。

The second thing is the ways of working that we have.

第二件事是我们的工作方式。

We have these product reviews that happen.

我们有这些产品评论。

We generally classify anything that we are doing in terms of its complexity around a small, medium or high complexity, and anything that's being worked on is actually being shared with the entire organization.

我们通常根据复杂性将我们正在做的任何事情分类为小型、中型或高度复杂性，并且正在处理的任何事情实际上都是与整个组织共享的。

If it's something that's small to medium, it's actually shared with the entire product org.

如果它是中小型的东西，它实际上会与整个产品组织共享。

In fact, if you are non-product, you can actually subscribe to that Slack channel as well.

事实上，如果您不是产品人员，您实际上也可以订阅该 Slack 频道。

Everybody sees what the product org is working on, everybody sees what the core hypothesis is, "What is the solution for that, what is the proposed design for it, how are we thinking about the capabilities?"

每个人都知道产品组织正在做什么，每个人都知道核心假设是什么，“解决方案是什么，建议的设计是什么，我们如何考虑功能？”

Varun Parmar: Then anything that's big actually goes through a formal process like a product review where there's a meeting and a bunch of us are in there and it's up to us, including the product leaders, to basically make sure that we are connecting the dots in terms of having a much more holistic perspective.

Varun Parmar：任何重大的事情实际上都会经历一个正式的流程，比如产品审查，其中有一个会议，我们一群人都在场，这取决于我们，包括产品负责人，从根本上确保我们能够以更全面的视角将各个点连接起来。

I would say lastly, as Miro has sort of scaled the spectrum of companies all the way from a team that might have two or three people and might be taking out their credit card and using Miro for their own team all the way to a large corporation that might have 50,000, 80,000 employees, all of them are using Miro.

最后我要说的是，Miro 已经将公司范围从一个可能有两三个人、可能会拿出信用卡并为自己的团队使用 Miro 的团队一路扩展到可能拥有 50,000、80,000 名员工的大公司，所有这些人都在使用 Miro。

We've come to realize that at some point the deep enterprise requirements need to be encapsulated in a set of requirements or best practices and we need to make sure that those get democratized across all of the feature teams.

我们逐渐意识到，在某些时候，深层的企业需求需要封装在一组需求或最佳实践中，并且我们需要确保这些需求或最佳实践在所有功能团队中实现民主化。

Varun Parmar: When I'm thinking about building a new feature, I have a checklist in front of me where I can say, "Here are the 10 things that I need to think of that I need to incorporate early on in my thinking in the architecture, in the definition of the process, so that it doesn't come downstream." I would say that's an area where we're still working on and more recently we put more focus and energy and there's a product manager who's now leading that particular charter.

Varun Parmar：当我考虑构建一个新功能时，我面前有一个清单，我可以在其中说：“这是我需要考虑的 10 件事，我需要尽早将它们纳入架构的思考中、流程的定义中，这样它就不会出现在下游。”我想说，这是我们仍在努力的一个领域，最近我们投入了更多的注意力和精力，现在有一位产品经理正在领导这个特定的章程。

Lenny: I love all these details.

莱尼：我喜欢所有这些细节。

This AMPED structure, I love that.

这种 AMPED 结构，我喜欢。

There's analytics, you said product marketing, analyst marketing and then product engineering design.

有分析，你说的是产品营销、分析师营销，然后是产品工程设计。

It's rare that you see marketing as a part of teams, as a leadership, kind of part of the leadership group.

您很少将营销视为团队的一部分，作为领导层的一部分，或者是领导小组的一部分。

Do you have a sense of what impact adding that had on the team or where that came from?

您是否知道添加这些内容对团队有何影响或来自何处？

Or is that just historically been something Miro has prioritized, marketing and product marketing?

或者这只是米罗历史上优先考虑的事情，营销和产品营销？

Varun Parmar: This was done before I got here and I wish I could take credit for it, but I can't.

Varun Parmar：这是在我来到这里之前完成的，我希望我能为此获得荣誉，但我不能。

I think this was the result of an observation, which is quite similar to what you're saying, which is while we might be developing a lot of the features and PMs or thinking bottoms-up in terms of what we are building, we might find that what we have built might not be able to capture the imagination of what we originally thought it would.

我认为这是观察的结果，这与你所说的非常相似，即虽然我们可能正在开发很多功能和 PM，或者自下而上地思考我们正在构建的内容，但我们可能会发现我们构建的内容可能无法捕捉到我们最初认为的想象力。

A big part of that is how are you going to think about positioning, how are you going to think about competitive differentiation?

其中很大一部分是你将如何考虑定位，你将如何考虑竞争差异化？

How are you going to package it up so that the sellers that are out there are able to position it in a way that the customer, in this case the buyer, might be an IT professional, might a line business leader, can basically see the full vision of where we are going?

您将如何打包它，以便外面的卖家能够以这样的方式定位它：客户（在本例中为买方）可能是 IT 专业人员，也可能是业务线业务领导者，基本上可以看到我们前进方向的完整愿景？

I think by having product marketing as part of AMPED, we now bring that unique perspective that may be missing in certain teams.

我认为，通过将产品营销作为 AMPED 的一部分，我们现在带来了某些团队可能缺少的独特视角。

Varun Parmar: PMs are more acting as product owners or more focused on core problem and solution but not thinking about positioning, because that's so important, especially when you're thinking about a market that we are increasingly in that there is competition there.

Varun Parmar：产品经理更多地充当产品负责人，或者更关注核心问题和解决方案，但不考虑定位，因为这非常重要，特别是当你考虑我们越来越多地参与竞争的市场时。

That's one of the first things we started off with and that's top of mind for you as well, is that everything that we are doing has to be looked through that lens.

这是我们首先要做的事情之一，也是你们最关心的事情，那就是我们所做的一切都必须通过这个镜头来审视。

One of the core philosophies that I have, Lenny, is that the success of a company is a direct relation of what the competition allows you to do.

莱尼，我的核心理念之一是，公司的成功与竞争对手允许你做什么有直接关系。

I feel like not many people talk about that, but in many cases in my professional career, and I've been at it for close to 24, 25 years, is that every single instance when I looked at a company accelerated their growth or there was a deceleration of growth, it was a direct relation to what the competition allowed you to do.

我觉得没有多少人谈论这一点，但在我的职业生涯中，我已经从事了近 24、25 年的工作，在很多情况下，当我观察一家公司加速增长或增长减速的每一个实例时，这都与竞争对手允许你做什么有直接关系。

Obviously, you have to do everything that you should be doing, but competition is the biggest variable that allows you to figure that out.

显然，你必须做你应该做的一切，但竞争是让你弄清楚这一点的最大变量。

Lenny: I want to hear more about your core product philosophies, but let me dig into the one you just shared.

莱尼：我想更多地了解你们的核心产品理念，但让我深入探讨一下你们刚刚分享的理念。

What you find is that the way you grow or stop growing is often a direct result of your competition.

你会发现，你成长或停止成长的方式往往是你的竞争的直接结果。

Is there an example of that that comes to mind?

我能想到这样的例子吗？

I'm guessing maybe Box versus Dropbox is an experience you had there, or if not, what's an example of that that you've experienced, to make it a little more concrete even?

我猜 Box 与 Dropbox 可能是您在那里经历过的经历，或者如果没有，您经历过什么例子，甚至更具体一点？

Varun Parmar: For those of us who've been in the collaboration space, and I've been doing collaboration and productivity apps for over 20 years, over two decades, at some point, you have companies like Microsoft that get really attracted to a space and you can see the trajectory of a business that's growing at a certain clip and then all of a sudden there's a competitive product that enters that has the might of distribution and the might of pricing, and that's just a direct example.

Varun Parmar：对于我们这些一直在协作领域工作的人来说，我从事协作和生产力应用程序已经有 20 多年了，二十多年了，在某些时候，像微软这样的公司真的被某个领域所吸引，你可以看到一个业务以一定的速度增长的轨迹，然后突然有一种有竞争力的产品进入，它具有分销能力和定价能力，这只是一个直接的例子。

I think I've seen that multiple times, first at Adobe where I was part of the document cloud business, clearly saw that at Box as well.

我想我已经多次看到这一点，首先是在 Adob​​e，我是文档云业务的一部分，在 Box 也清楚地看到了这一点。

Varun Parmar: I think you can, in general, sort of look at every single category and you can say that there was a category leader and they were growing at a certain clip or a certain pace and all of a sudden there were a bunch of entrants that get in and what happens to your growth rate?

Varun Parmar：我认为一般来说，你可以看一下每个类别，你可以说有一个类别的领导者，他们以一定的速度或一定的速度增长，突然间有一群进入者进入，你的增长率会发生什么变化？

It's all dependent on how strong is the competitor in terms of providing a good enough solution?

这完全取决于竞争对手在提供足够好的解决方案方面有多强大？

That's one.

这是一个。

The second is how strong is the competition in terms of their distribution outreach?

第二个问题是在分销范围方面的竞争有多激烈？

Then the third thing is how strong is the competition in terms of the pricing and packaging?

第三个问题是定价和包装方面的竞争有多激烈？

Lenny: I really like this discussion, especially because often the advice is, "Don't worry about the competition, just focus on the customer, it's going to be fine." Which what you're saying is that's not right, and I agree.

莱尼：我真的很喜欢这个讨论，特别是因为通常的建议是，“不要担心竞争，只关注客户，一切都会好起来的。”你的说法是不对的，我同意。

What do you do with that in mind?

考虑到这一点你会做什么？

How does that impact the way you build product or strategy?

这对您构建产品或策略的方式有何影响？

Is there some you could share that maybe tactically someone could leverage to how they're approaching their product strategy?

您是否可以分享一些在战术上可以用来制定产品策略的内容？

Varun Parmar: It depends on who the competition is and what is their unfair advantage here.

Varun Parmar：这取决于竞争对手是谁以及他们在这里的不公平优势是什么。

We talked about one specific competitor and I have a lot of respect for them, by the way, and I learn a lot from them every single day in terms of how they make bets and how they enter markets and stuff.

我们谈到了一个特定的竞争对手，顺便说一句，我非常尊重他们，我每天都从他们身上学到很多东西，包括他们如何下注以及如何进入市场等等。

At some point I'm going to write a book on them, I feel.

我觉得在某个时候我会写一本关于它们的书。

Lenny: Ooh.

莱尼：哦。

We'll have to come back to talk about that.

我们必须回来讨论这个问题。

Varun Parmar: That's right, yeah.

瓦伦·帕尔玛：没错，是的。

I think it sort of comes down to how do you think about your unique place relative to all of these players, and in your customer's mind are they able to clearly understand what is the unique value that you deliver relative to everything else?

我认为这可以归结为你如何看待你相对于所有这些参与者的独特地位，以及在你的客户心目中，他们是否能够清楚地理解你提供的相对于其他一切的独特价值是什么？

Part of that is the unique capabilities you provide.

其中一部分是您提供的独特功能。

Part of that is how you're packaging those unique capabilities to them, and making sure that they in their mind can see how you coexist in this overall sort of tech ecosystem that they might be investing in, to enable their employees or to enable them to operate.

其中一部分是你如何将这些独特的功能打包给他们，并确保他们能够在他们的脑海中看到你如何在他们可能投资的整个技术生态系统中共存，以支持他们的员工或使他们能够运营。

So I think it's sort of looking at that from that lens, yeah.

所以我认为这是从这个角度来看的，是的。

Lenny: Got it.

莱尼：明白了。

So what I'm hearing is be very clear about your differentiator and continue to invest there and then make sure your positioning is clear around why you're...

所以我听到的是，要非常清楚你的差异化因素，并继续在那里投资，然后确保你的定位明确，为什么你……

just identifying, "Here's why we're different and we're not just a better or worse version of this thing" or "Here's why we're different" and making sure that's really clear.

只是确定“这就是我们与众不同的原因，我们不仅仅是这件事的更好或更差版本”或“这就是我们与众不同的原因”，并确保这一点非常清楚。

Varun Parmar: Exactly.

瓦伦·帕尔玛：没错。

I think the other thing I would say, there's another core philosophy I have, which is products either get better over a period of time or they get worse.

我想我想说的另一件事是，我还有另一个核心理念，那就是产品要么在一段时间内变得更好，要么变得更糟。

Products never remain the same.

产品永远不会保持不变。

I think you can take that philosophy to a bunch of things in life, but I'm going to take the lens of products, which is my core philosophy is every single day, every single time somebody is pushing your code to production and you're releasing a feature or an enhancement, you are making the product better or you're making the product worse, but the products never remain same.

我认为你可以将这种理念应用到生活中的很多事情上，但我将从产品的角度来看，这是我的核心理念，每一天，每次有人将你的代码推向生产，而你发布了一个功能或增强功能，你使产品变得更好，或者你使产品变得更糟，但产品永远不会保持不变。

The lens for this, Lenny, is actually from a customer's perspective, from the end user perspective.

莱尼，这个镜头实际上是从客户的角度，从最终用户的角度来看的。

The thing is that if you are a player where there's no one else in the market, that's one thing, so that's great.

问题是，如果你是市场上没有其他人的玩家，那是一回事，所以这很棒。

Kudos to you for actually identifying a blue ocean strategy and sort of executing to that.

感谢您真正确定了蓝海战略并执行了该战略。

But most markets, most products, actually have either direct or indirect competitors that are available.

但大多数市场、大多数产品实际上都有直接或间接的竞争对手。

Varun Parmar: From the customer's mind, you're doing something, the competitor is doing something, so in their mind they're looking at these products and they're looking at these companies and they're saying, "Which is better versus not?" So with every release that your competitor is making and every release that you're making, you're either making chess points, moves against them, positive points, or you're going negative.

Varun Parmar：从客户的角度来看，你在做某事，竞争对手也在做某事，所以在他们看来，他们正在研究这些产品，他们正在研究这些公司，他们会说，“哪个更好，哪个更好？”因此，对于你的竞争对手所做的每一次发布以及你所做的每一次发布，你要么获得棋分，要么对他们不利，要么获得积极的积分，要么获得消极的积分。

I think that framework, if you have in mind, it actually drives an insane amount of clarity in terms of what you're doing and what the impact is going to be.

我认为这个框架，如果你心里有数的话，它实际上让你在做什么以及将产生什么影响方面变得非常清晰。

Because every single move that you're making, the customer has that sort of in their mind, if not explicitly, implicitly that they're actually comparing these things.

因为你所做的每一个动作，客户都会在他们的脑海中（如果不是明确地或隐含地）认为他们实际上是在比较这些东西。

I think it brings a level of focus in terms of where you need to invest and why you need to invest and why this is going to make those decisions.

我认为它带来了一定程度的关注，包括你需要投资的地方、为什么需要投资以及为什么要做出这些决定。

Varun Parmar: I think it allows at least for product leaders to make some high quality decisions around the bets that they're making and how they're going to play out in terms of eventual once the dust settles and the market at large is going to say, "I'm going to standardize on something and now I feel I need to go get it for everyone." Or "This is the tool that I want to use for this particular use case." That all of these decisions that you are making ladder up to that final sort of play that you have to do in terms of the market consolidation that eventually happens.

Varun Parmar：我认为这至少可以让产品领导者围绕他们所做的赌注做出一些高质量的决策，以及一旦尘埃落定，他们将如何最终发挥作用，整个市场会说，“我要对某些东西进行标准化，现在我觉得我需要为每个人实现它。”或者“这是我想用于此特定用例的工具。”您所做的所有这些决定都是为了最终发生的市场整合而必须采取的最终行动。

Lenny: This is so interesting.

莱尼：这太有趣了。

Essentially what you're saying is that you find that being very close to and understanding the competition really well is really essential, versus this kind of the other end of the spectrum almost from just like, "Don't worry about the competition, don't pay attention." I like this point, metaphor of just like, "Are we moving ahead or further behind?" Is that where you operationalize that to track that?

本质上，你所说的是，你发现非常接近并真正了解竞争对手非常重要，而这种情况的另一端几乎就像“不要担心竞争，不要关注”。我喜欢这一点，就像“我们是在前进还是在进一步落后？”这样的比喻。那是你操作它来跟踪它的地方吗？

Then also just how do you not over-obsess with, "Let's just catch up, get more features," that kind of thing?

那么你如何才能不过度沉迷于“让我们迎头赶上，获得更多功能”之类的事情呢？

How do you find that balance?

你如何找到这种平衡？

Varun Parmar: I'll be honest, I don't think we've figured it out.

Varun Parmar：说实话，我认为我们还没有弄清楚。

We haven't cracked the nut in terms of how to operationalize this, but I know you are way smarter than me on some of these things, so maybe we can-

我们还没有解决如何实施这一问题，但我知道你在某些事情上比我聪明得多，所以也许我们可以-

Varun Parmar: ...

瓦伦·帕尔玛：...

partner on this and come up with something.

对此进行合作并提出一些建议。

Lenny: All right, that'll be something we work on.

莱尼：好吧，这就是我们要做的事情。

Any other product philosophies that you want to share?

您还想分享其他产品理念吗？

That was awesome.

太棒了。

Varun Parmar: This is all sort of related to it.

Varun Parmar：这都与它有关。

It's like a string of pearls.

它就像一串珍珠。

I think there's maybe one more pearl we can actually thread into the needle right here.

我想也许我们还可以把一颗珍珠穿进针里。

Varun Parmar: Which is we talked about how do you ladder this up and stuff, and then the question is, okay, how do you know that everything that you're doing, is that in the right direction or not?

Varun Parmar：我们谈到了如何逐步提升这一点，然后问题是，好吧，你怎么知道你正在做的一切是否朝着正确的方向发展？

Should you move slow and be much more mindful about the things that you're doing or should you move fast and make certain bets and then decide certain things and stuff?

你应该缓慢行动并更加注意你正在做的事情，还是应该快速行动并做出某些赌注，然后决定某些事情和事情？

I think there are two views that are out there.

我认为有两种观点。

My personal perspective on this is that what you want to do is that you want to be the first one to hit the brick wall.

我个人对此的看法是，你想做的就是成为第一个碰壁的人。

This is particularly true when you are in a market that is competitive.

当您处于竞争激烈的市场时尤其如此。

The reason for that is that if you consider yourself as an innovation-centric company and you believe that you are building experiences that fundamentally don't exist anywhere else and you're sort of paving the way for the rest of the folks to basically get inspired with how you are building these experiences, speed is the single biggest determinant, in my experience, in terms of who ends up being more successful versus not.

原因是，如果你认为自己是一家以创新为中心的公司，并且你相信你正在构建基本上不存在于其他任何地方的体验，并且你正在为其他人基本上从你如何构建这些体验中获得灵感铺平道路，那么根据我的经验，速度是决定谁最终更成功与否的最大决定因素。

Varun Parmar: I don't know, maybe this is a little bit controversial where people say, Go slow to actually go fast." I think I have a lot of respect for that and there's certain areas you should do that, but when you are trying to figure out new experiences and stuff and you don't know if it's going to resonate or not, speed is something that you should accelerate for the organization.

Varun Parmar：我不知道，也许这有点争议，人们说，“慢一点才能真正快”。”我认为我对此非常尊重，并且在某些领域你应该这样做，但是当你试图找出新的体验和东西并且你不知道它是否会引起共鸣时，你应该为组织加快速度。

I think Frank Slootman talks about this a lot in his book and how can you accelerate?

我认为弗兰克·斯洛特曼（Frank Slootman）在他的书中多次谈到了这一点，以及如何加速？

I think for me from a product perspective, the fundamental concept is can you be the first one to hit the brick wall where you have the learning faster than anyone else in the market so that you can decide, "Oh my god, the path that I was going was not the right path.

我认为从产品的角度来看，基本概念是你能否成为第一个遇到困难的人，在那里你比市场上任何其他人都能更快地学习，这样你就可以决定，“天哪，我走的路不是正确的路。

I need to do 10 degrees west or I need to do 30 degrees east." I think as long as you're one or two or three steps ahead of everyone else in terms of uncovering or discovering those insights, then I think you can continue to be ahead of the pack in terms of building your product in business.

我需要向西转动 10 度，或者向东转动 30 度。”我认为，只要你在揭示或发现这些见解方面比其他人领先一、两或三步，那么我认为你就可以在业务中构建产品方面继续领先于其他人。

Lenny: You're talking about urgency.

莱尼：你说的是紧迫性。

I've never met a founder or a product leader who doesn't want their team to move faster.

我从来没有遇到过不希望自己的团队行动得更快的创始人或产品领导者。

They're always encouraging their team, "How do we move faster?" I'm curious if there's something you've learned tactically about helping your team move more quickly.

他们总是鼓励他们的团队，“我们如何才能走得更快？”我很好奇你是否在战术上学到了一些东西来帮助你的团队更快地行动。

You mentioned Frank Slootman's book.

你提到了弗兰克·斯洛特曼的书。

Amp It Up is what it's called, by the way, in case folks want to check it out and he's big on just like creating a sense of urgency, constant urgency, and we'll link to that and share notes.

顺便说一句，“Amp It Up”就是它的名字，以防万一人们想查看它，而他热衷于创造一种紧迫感，持续的紧迫感，我们将链接到它并分享笔记。

But yeah, what have you found helps create urgency and generally helps your teams move faster other than just like, "Move faster, everyone"?

但是，是的，除了“大家快点行动”之外，您发现什么可以帮助创造紧迫感并通常帮助您的团队更快地行动？

Varun Parmar: My fundamental belief here, Lenny, is that every product manager...

Varun Parmar：Lenny，我的基本信念是每个产品经理......

I can talk to product managers because there is reason certain ones, someone wants to be a product manager, because in my view it's one of the most thankless jobs, like you get to do a lot of and it's like, "Why you have to do this?" But it attracts a certain personality and that personality is driven by challenge and that personality wants to prove that they can solve this challenge and do something amazing.

我可以与产品经理交谈，因为某些人想成为一名产品经理是有原因的，因为在我看来，这是最吃力不讨好的工作之一，就像你要做很多事情一样，“为什么你必须这样做？”但它吸引了某种个性，而这种个性是由挑战驱动的，这种个性想要证明他们可以解决这个挑战并做出一些令人惊奇的事情。

I think fundamentally the product persona actually wants to move fast.

我认为从根本上来说，产品角色实际上希望快速发展。

I think the reason why in some cases we are not able to move fast is because of roadblocks that we run into and those roadblocks can manifest themselves into technical challenges, they can manifest them in cells of organizational challenges, they could be priority challenges and so on and so forth.

我认为在某些情况下我们无法快速行动的原因是我们遇到了障碍，这些障碍可以表现为技术挑战，它们可以表现为组织挑战的单元，它们可能是优先挑战等等。

Varun Parmar: My fundamental approach to solving that is to ensure that the product leads who are working on these capabilities can instantly raise their hand and call out that there are challenges that they are running into.

Varun Parmar：我解决这个问题的基本方法是确保负责这些功能的产品负责人能够立即举手并指出他们遇到了挑战。

Then the job of the leadership team, the product management team, is to essentially go and quickly resolve those issues.

那么领导团队、产品管理团队的工作就是快速解决这些问题。

I think if you are able to resolve those issues, then what it does is it actually starts a virtuous cycle where you can actually start to see those wins.

我认为，如果你能够解决这些问题，那么它实际上会启动一个良性循环，你可以真正开始看到这些胜利。

Once you see those wins, you actually create that courage to do more things.

一旦你看到这些胜利，你实际上就会有勇气去做更多的事情。

Maybe because you've seen how that specific roadblock was solved and you have a pattern matching that you've developed now, you can solve a lot of those things on your own and it's the next level of challenge that you now going to raise your hand.

也许因为您已经了解了如何解决特定障碍，并且您现在已经开发了模式匹配，所以您可以自己解决很多这些问题，这是您现在要举手的下一个挑战级别。

Varun Parmar: What that does is it starts to build this organizational competency in terms of how you can figure out what to build.

Varun Parmar：它的作用是开始建立这种组织能力，即如何弄清楚要构建什么。

We all find these people in our organizations where there's someone somehow is able to do certain things in one-tenth the time that it would take a normal person.

我们都在我们的组织中发现了这样的人，其中有人能够以普通人十分之一的时间完成某些事情。

It's not that they are 10 times faster, it's just that in my observation that they've figured out which part of the core base they should build in versus not, who should be part of their team and who should not be, how they need to define that from a scope perspective, what does success look like, and it's the architecture of bringing all of these things together that actually brings that magic formula line in terms of "Hey, we are able to deliver faster."

这并不是说他们的速度快了 10 倍，而是根据我的观察，他们已经弄清楚了他们应该构建核心基础的哪一部分，而不是哪些部分，谁应该成为他们团队的一部分，谁不应该成为他们团队的一部分，他们需要如何从范围的角度来定义它，成功是什么样子，而正是将所有这些东西结合在一起的架构，实际上带来了“嘿，我们能够更快地交付”这一神奇公式。

Lenny: I really like this topic.

莱尼：我真的很喜欢这个话题。

What I'm hearing is one of the biggest roots of slowdown in a company and product development is blockers not being unblocked, and I always feel the same thing.

我听到的是公司和产品开发放缓的最大根源之一是阻碍因素没有被解除，我总是有同样的感觉。

I feel like a PM's number one job is to unblock their team because their job is basically make the most out of their team that they're marshaling towards some outcome.

我觉得产品经理的首要工作是解除团队的障碍，因为他们的工作基本上是充分利用团队的力量，以实现某种结果。

The way you do that is just figure out what's slowing them down.

你要做的就是找出是什么拖慢了他们的速度。

You just talked about this idea of a PM raises their hand to leadership, "Hey, we're blocked by this thing." Is there a process you've come up with there that helps you do that, it's connected to-

您刚才谈到了 PM 向领导层举手的想法，“嘿，我们被这件事挡住了。”您是否想出了一个可以帮助您做到这一点的流程，它与-

Varun Parmar: Yeah, I would say we are trying to sort of systematically ingrain this in the culture of the organization.

Varun Parmar：是的，我想说我们正在努力将这一点系统地融入到组织文化中。

We have a motto in the product org, it's very simple, single sentence, deliver customer value faster with high quality.

我们在产品组织中有一句座右铭，非常简单，一句话，更快、高质量地交付客户价值。

That's it.

就是这样。

Everything that we do, and when I say everything, everything, Lenny, from performance and reward system and measurements, everything is based on this one single statement and it has three attributes.

我们所做的一切，当我说一切，一切，莱尼，从绩效和奖励系统以及衡量标准来看，一切都基于这一个单一的陈述，它具有三个属性。

The first one is deliver customer value, and we believe customer value is only delivered when customers use it.

第一个是交付客户价值，我们相信客户价值只有在客户使用时才交付。

Anytime as a PM at Miro, when you ship something, we are looking at, "Well, what was the metric you were going to move and how much did it move?" We have some original targets that we can go back to.

作为 Miro 的产品经理，当你发布某些东西时，我们都会考虑，“嗯，你要移动的指标是什么？移动了多少？”我们有一些可以回到的原始目标。

That's the first aspect of what we're doing, deliver customer value.

这是我们正在做的第一个方面，交付客户价值。

Varun Parmar: The second one is move faster, and there are certain cycle times that we are measuring across the organization.

Varun Parmar：第二个是加快行动速度，我们正在整个组织中衡量某些周期时间。

From the time you came up with the idea to the time that you actually pitched a solution to the time you actually shipped it, to the time we actually moved the metric, it's information that has been collected and is being made available to the organization.

从您提出想法到实际提出解决方案，再到实际交付解决方案，再到我们实际移动指标，这些信息已被收集并可供组织使用。

You can say, "Hey, if it was a small, medium or large, what's the average?

你可以说：“嘿，如果是小号、中号或大号，平均值是多少？

What's the medium, what's the variance?" And you can say, "Hey, looking at this data, what can be improved?" That's on the faster aspect of it.

媒介是什么，差异是什么？”你可以说，“嘿，看看这些数据，有什么可以改进的地方？”这是它更快的方面。

Then the last one is around high quality, which is we want to build best in class collaboration experiences, so we are always getting inspired by what we find in applications and experiences that we see around us and we are saying, "Hey, when it comes to designing, sharing flows, we believe that these are the three apps that have best in class sharing flows when it comes to designing some synchronous capabilities like this.

最后一个是围绕高质量，即我们希望构建一流的协作体验，因此我们总是从我们周围看到的应用程序和体验中获得灵感，我们说，“嘿，当谈到设计、共享流程时，我们相信，在设计此类同步功能时，这三个应用程序拥有一流的共享流程。

These are the best in class apps that we should look at."

这些是我们应该关注的同类最佳应用程序。”

Varun Parmar: We are always trying to make sure that we are benchmarking ourselves against that and we have our design team.

Varun Parmar：我们一直在努力确保我们能够以此为基准，并且我们拥有我们的设计团队。

On a regular basis, like when we ship stuff on a monthly basis, our design leadership team does a triage of everything that got shipped into high quality or not high quality.

定期，就像我们每月发货一样，我们的设计领导团队会对发货的所有东西进行分类，以保证高质量或非高质量。

It's just like a binary function, and we're doing that and we're saying, "Hey, the reason why we believe it's not high quality is because A, B, C, D, E and we're making it available to other designers so they can actually start to build that telemetry in terms of some things are more subjective." But you can start to see some patent matching and say like, "Hey, this is what great looks like."

它就像一个二元函数，我们正在这样做，我们说，“嘿，我们之所以认为它质量不高，是因为 A、B、C、D、E，我们正在将其提供给其他设计师，以便他们实际上可以开始构建遥测，因为某些事情更主观。”但你可以开始看到一些专利匹配并说，“嘿，这就是伟大的样子。”

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Linear.

Lenny：这一集是由 Linear 为您带来的。

Let's be honest, the issue tracker that you're using today isn't very helpful.

老实说，您今天使用的问题跟踪器并不是很有帮助。

Why is it that always seems to be working against you instead of working for you?

为什么它似乎总是对你不利而不是为你工作？

Why does it feel like such a chore to use?

为什么使用起来感觉这么麻烦？

Well, Linear is different.

那么，线性则不同。

It's incredibly fast, beautifully designed, and it comes with powerful workflows that streamline your entire product development process, from issue tracking all the way to managing product roadmaps.

它的速度令人难以置信，设计精美，并且具有强大的工作流程，可以简化您的整个产品开发流程，从问题跟踪一直到管理产品路线图。

Linear's designed for the way modern software teams work.

Linear 专为现代软件团队的工作方式而设计。

What users love about linear are the powerful keyboard shortcuts, efficient GitHub integrations, cycles that actually create progress, and built-in project updates that keep everyone in sync.

用户喜欢 Linear 的原因是强大的键盘快捷键、高效的 GitHub 集成、真正创造进步的循环，以及让每个人保持同步的内置项目更新。

In short, it just works.

简而言之，它就是有效的。

Linear is the default tool of choice among startups and it powers a wide range of large established companies such as Vercel, Retool and Cash App.

Linear 是初创公司选择的默认工具，它为 Vercel、Retool 和 Cash App 等众多大型老牌公司提供支持。

See for yourself why product teams describe using linear as magical.

亲自了解为什么产品团队将使用线性描述为神奇的。

Visit linear.app/lenny to try Linear for free with your team and get 25% off when you upgrade.

访问 Linear.app/lenny 与您的团队一起免费试用 Linear，并在升级时享受 25% 的折扣。

That's linear.app/lenny.

那是 Linear.app/lenny。

Lenny: Okay, so every month or so the design team looks at everything that's shipped and puts things into a bucket.

莱尼：好的，所以设计团队大约每个月都会检查运输的所有物品并将其放入桶中。

Either this is...

要么这是...

It's like a binary thing, high quality or not high quality.

这就像一个二元的东西，高质量或低质量。

Lenny: Wow, that is so cool.

莱尼：哇，那太酷了。

Then, one, what do they do with that?

那么，第一，他们用它做什么？

Do they send it out to the product team?

他们会将其发送给产品团队吗？

Then two, is this just like FYI or is it like, "We need to fix all these low quality things going back"?

第二，这只是仅供参考还是像“我们需要修复所有这些低质量的问题”？

Or is it more just like, "For the future, please be aware these are not high quality"?

或者更像是“为了未来，请注意这些不是高质量的”？

Varun Parmar: Yeah, so it's actually both.

Varun Parmar：是的，所以实际上两者都是。

Generally what happens is that the design leadership team is doing this and there's one particular design leader who's the designated person to make sure that this is happening on a regular basis.

一般来说，设计领导团队正在执行此操作，并且有一位特定的设计领导者是指定人员，以确保定期进行此操作。

Right now the way we're using it is that we are actually using it to calibrate and align around the design leadership around what we mean by high quality.

目前我们使用它的方式是，我们实际上用它来校准和调整设计领导力，围绕我们所说的高质量。

Because it's one of those things, it's like if you've never seen colors and I ask you, "Lenny, describe pink and compare that to red," and if you haven't seen colors, how do you describe colors?

因为这是其中之一，就像如果你从未见过颜色，我问你，“莱尼，描述一下粉红色并将其与红色进行比较，”如果你没有见过颜色，你如何描述颜色？

You can't.

你不能。

But if I show you and I say, "Lenny, these are three examples of what pink is and these are three examples of red is," then you're like, "Oh, I get pink and I get red." There are certain things that you just like when you write it's very, very hard to describe it, but if you show specific examples, it's very clear, "Oh, I get it.

但如果我给你看，然后我说，“莱尼，这是粉色的三个例子，这是红色的三个例子，”然后你会说，“哦，我变成粉色，我变成红色。”有些东西你在写的时候就喜欢，这是非常非常难以描述的，但如果你展示具体的例子，那就很清楚了，“哦，我明白了。

I get how pink is different than red." But if I try to describe it, it's going to be very hard.

我明白粉色和红色有什么不同。”但如果我试图描述它，那就会非常困难。

Varun Parmar: So we got into these endless conversations at some point about a year ago where we were saying, "We need high quality, we need high quality." And people are like, "Let's just go and define this thing." We had a bunch of our leaders go and write documents, really long documents in terms of what are the attributes and how do we define those attributes and how do we measure those attributes and how do we enable people to do that?

Varun Parmar：大约在一年前的某个时候，我们进行了无休止的对话，我们说，“我们需要高质量，我们需要高质量。”人们会说，“让我们去定义这个东西吧。”我们让一群领导者去写文档，非常长的文档，内容包括属性是什么、我们如何定义这些属性、我们如何衡量这些属性以及我们如何使人们能够做到这一点？

It felt like it's a good thing because we are trying to codify it, but it also felt like it was a very heavy way of solving that problem.

感觉这是一件好事，因为我们正在努力将其编纂成法典，但也感觉这是解决该问题的一种非常沉重的方式。

Then we just came up with this approach, which is like, "What's great versus not great" and just start classifying it.

然后我们就想出了这种方法，就像“什么是伟大的，什么是不伟大的”，然后开始对其进行分类。

As you know, it's like modern AI systems are classification systems and we -

如您所知，就像现代人工智能系统是分类系统一样，我们 -

Lenny: Yeah, I was going to say, sounds like reinforcement learning approach here.

莱尼：是的，我想说，听起来像是强化学习方法。

Varun Parmar: That's right.

瓦伦·帕尔玛：没错。

That's right.

这是正确的。

I think it's worked decently well.

我认为它运作得很好。

I would say with most things we need to operationalize it and we need to make sure that now we are democratizing it and everybody has access to it and so on and so forth.

我想说的是，对于大多数事情，我们需要将其付诸实施，我们需要确保现在我们正在使其民主化，每个人都可以使用它，等等。

But I think it's been a good start and now we are sharing this more openly with others in the org.

但我认为这是一个良好的开始，现在我们正在与组织中的其他人更公开地分享这一点。

Lenny: When I said that, I imagined you...

莱尼：当我这么说的时候，我想象到了你……

From the outside, you have a very unique culture and approach your product.

从外部来看，你们拥有非常独特的文化并对待你们的产品。

That's a great example of that.

这是一个很好的例子。

I've never heard of a process like this.

我从来没有听说过这样的过程。

What I'm hearing is essentially you're trying to build the muscle within the organization of what is quality.

我听到的本质上是，你正在努力增强组织内的质量力量。

It's like this continued heuristic of, "Okay, I get it." So PMs on the team start to understand in their head what that means.

就像这样持续的启发式：“好吧，我明白了。”因此，团队中的产品经理开始在头脑中理解这意味着什么。

Lenny: Super cool.

莱尼：超级酷。

You also talked about, in the middle part of that sentence, of moving faster and that you track and measure that somehow.

您还在该句子的中间部分谈到了移动速度更快，并且您以某种方式跟踪和测量它。

Can you talk more about that?

你能多谈谈吗？

Because that's something every product team is always trying to understand.

因为这是每个产品团队一直试图理解的事情。

"How do we know if we're going faster, if we're going as fast as we could?" How do you actually do that?

“我们怎么知道我们是否走得更快，是否尽可能快？”你实际上是如何做到的？

How do you measure these things?

你如何衡量这些东西？

Varun Parmar: The core philosophy there is velocity is more like the game of golf where you're just playing against yourself.

Varun Parmar：速度的核心理念更像是高尔夫运动，你只是在与自己较量。

It's not like if Lenny and Varun are out at the golf course, it doesn't matter.

莱尼和瓦伦不在高尔夫球场也没关系。

I'm not competing against you, I'm just competing against myself because that's the only...

我不是在和你竞争，我只是在和自己竞争，因为这是唯一的……

I'm going to just hit the ball, so it's like how much better can we get?

我只想击球，所以我们可以做得更好吗？

I think our core philosophies around that and what we're trying to do is that on all the product teams, the feature teams that we have, we're just collecting all the information and we are making it available to everyone so that they can actually see what the cycle times are.

我认为我们围绕这一点的核心理念以及我们正在努力做的事情是，在我们拥有的所有产品团队、功能团队中，我们只是收集所有信息，并将其提供给每个人，以便他们能够真正了解周期时间。

What we are interested in is from the time that you have an insight, from the time you believe "I can do something unique for my user, for my persona," how long does it take for you to actually deliver that value?

我们感兴趣的是，从您有了洞察力的那一刻起，从您相信“我可以为我的用户、为我的角色做一些独特的事情”开始，您需要多长时间才能真正交付该价值？

Varun Parmar: We have a product process that we follow, which starts with a P-strat, which is a strategy, and then we go into P0, which is definition of the problem, then we go into P1, which is definition of the solution, and then we go into P2, which is once the solution is shipped, are we hitting the metrics that we originally had defined upfront before we decided to work on this.

Varun Parmar：我们有一个我们遵循的产品流程，它从 P-strat 开始，这是一种策略，然后我们进入 P0，这是问题的定义，然后我们进入 P1，这是解决方案的定义，然后我们进入 P2，这是解决方案交付后，我们是否达到了我们决定开展此工作之前最初定义的指标。

You have all of these stage gates and then we basically classify everything that we are doing in small, medium, large.

你拥有所有这些舞台大门，然后我们基本上将我们所做的一切分为小、中、大。

You can go in and you can say, "Hey, I thought this was a small thing," and small thing is something you can get it done in less than a month, and so on and so forth.

你可以进去说，“嘿，我以为这是一件小事”，而小事就是你可以在不到一个月的时间内完成的事情，等等。

There are 50 other product teams that are shipping these features, and what's the average, what's the variance, what's the median?

还有 50 个其他产品团队正在提供这些功能，平均值是多少，方差是多少，中位数是多少？

Varun Parmar: "Oh, wait a second, actually it seems like I took way more time in the problem definition stage.

Varun Parmar：“哦，等一下，实际上我在问题定义阶段花了更多时间。

Let me actually try to go talk to this other product team that actually did it much faster," or "Oh, I actually did it really, really fast, and the reason why I did it fast was because of this.

让我尝试与其他实际上做得更快的产品团队交谈，”或者“哦，我实际上做得非常非常快，我之所以做得这么快就是因为这个。

Let me go share this out with the broader team." Usually the product ops function, we call it product excellence internal, sort of product excellence function, is recording some of these things.

让我去与更广泛的团队分享这一点。”通常，产品运营功能，我们称之为产品卓越内部功能，某种产品卓越功能，正在记录其中的一些内容。

I would say getting reliable data, and then because we have some things that are going through meetings and there are some things that are going through Slack, we could do better on some of those dimensions, but all of this data is available and we provided it openly and folks can benchmark themselves against that.

我想说的是，获得可靠的数据，然后因为我们有一些事情正在通过会议进行，还有一些事情正在通过 Slack 进行，我们可以在其中一些方面做得更好，但所有这些数据都是可用的，我们公开提供，人们可以根据这些数据进行自我基准测试。

Lenny: So cool.

莱尼：太酷了。

Okay, so you have this P-strat, you called it, document which is kind an initial concept and then it's interesting you use the P0, P1, which is often for bugs, but it's cool that you use it for defining your products.

好的，所以你有这个 P-strat，你称之为文档，这是一个初始概念，然后有趣的是你使用 P0、P1，它们通常用于错误，但使用它来定义你的产品很酷。

So P-strat is just an idea pitch.

所以 P-strat 只是一个想法。

P0 is a spec, basically, like a one-pager for the product, and then P1 and P2 are basically getting to "Here's the actual product we're building." And you basically track time per step and map it to, "Here's how large this project should be." Over time you track per person, it sounds like, just like are you matching the benchmarks of how long a small project should take across each step?

P0 基本上是一个规格，就像产品的单页机，然后 P1 和 P2 基本上是“这是我们正在构建的实际产品”。您基本上会跟踪每个步骤的时间并将其映射到“这是这个项目应该有多大”。随着时间的推移，您对每个人进行跟踪，听起来就像您是否符合小项目每个步骤应花费多长时间的基准？

Lenny: Wow, that is extremely cool.

莱尼：哇，那太酷了。

Whatever templates you can share, these things that we can include in the show notes would be awesome.

无论您可以分享什么模板，我们可以在演出笔记中包含的这些内容都会很棒。

Lenny: Because people are always looking for just like, "Ah, I want do some of this stuff." If they can just plug and play, the more, the merrier.

莱尼：因为人们总是在寻找类似的东西，“啊，我想做一些这样的事情。”如果他们可以即插即用，那就越多越好。

Lenny: Shifting a little bit, it sounds like you guys are doing Scrum in some form.

Lenny：稍微改变一下，听起来你们正在以某种形式进行 Scrum。

Can you just talk about just broadly the product development process?

您能大致谈谈产品开发过程吗？

How long you or your sprints, how long do you plan for in the future, in detail specifically just like high level, how does the product development process work?

您或您的冲刺需要多长时间，您未来计划多长时间，具体来说就像高层一样，产品开发流程如何运作？

Varun Parmar: There are certain things that I learned at Box and that inspired some things that we do at Miro, and there are certain things that we've evolved.

Varun Parmar：我在 Box 学到了一些东西，这些东西启发了我们在 Miro 所做的一些事情，并且我们已经发展了某些东西。

One of the things that we've instituted is our roadmap process, so that's sort of the first thing around how the different teams are looking at the things that they're going to work on.

我们制定的其中一件事就是我们的路线图流程，因此这是关于不同团队如何看待他们将要开展的工作的第一件事。

We have a rolling six month roadmap, it seems large, but we've got, like I mentioned, a number of enterprise customers.

我们有一个为期六个月的滚动路线图，看起来很大，但正如我提到的，我们拥有许多企业客户。

If I've learned one thing that large enterprises is asking for a roadmap review.

如果我了解到一件事，大型企业正在要求进行路线图审查。

That tends to be my favorite meeting of sitting down with the enterprise leaders and walking through what we are working on.

这往往是我最喜欢的与企业领导人坐下来讨论我们正在做的事情的会议。

What we've done is we've tried to architect something which actually allows our customers to get what they're looking for, but at the same time does not remove the agility that is so important for us to deliver value faster.

我们所做的是，我们试图构建一些实际上可以让我们的客户获得他们想要的东西的东西，但同时不会消除对我们更快地交付价值非常重要的敏捷性。

Varun Parmar: What we do is we have a rolling six month roadmap that gets updated every three months and the first three months of that roadmap, we have a 80% position level, which means that 80% of the things that we claim to be on the roadmap will get done.

Varun Parmar：我们所做的是，我们有一个滚动的六个月路线图，每三个月更新一次，在该路线图的前三个月，我们有 80% 的位置水平，这意味着我们声称路线图上的 80% 的事情都会完成。

That's the target.

这就是目标。

For the next three months, because it's six months, so the first three months is 80%, the next three months is 50%, so we have a much lower level of resolution in the next three months after that.

接下来的三个月，因为是六个月，所以前三个月是80%，接下来的三个月是50%，所以之后的三个月我们的分辨率要低得多。

What that allows the product teams to do is actually have flexibility, which is based on what the customers are asking for and based on what the competitive moves are, based on some technology breakthroughs that happen around large language models, they can pivot and they can pivot and move towards that and they won't get penalized either by the customer or internally in terms of doing that.

这让产品团队能够做的实际上是具有灵活性，这是基于客户的要求，基于竞争的举措，基于围绕大型语言模型发生的一些技术突破，他们可以转向，他们可以转向并朝着这一目标迈进，而且他们不会因此而受到客户或内部的惩罚。

That's what we do and that's all at on the backdrop of an annual strategy that we publish.

这就是我们所做的，这一切都是在我们发布的年度战略的背景下进行的。

Varun Parmar: Every year we publish a strategy white paper that it gets published internally available to every single Mironeer across all functions that clearly articulates the key bets that we want to make.

Varun Parmar：我们每年都会发布一份战略白皮书，该白皮书在内部发布给所有职能部门的每个 Mironeer，清楚地阐明了我们想要做出的关键押注。

Why do we want to make those bets?

我们为什么要下这些赌注？

What is the expected outcome and how does that ladder up into the overall business outcomes that we are trying to drive from an OKR perspective as well as the overall business strategy that we have.

预期结果是什么？它如何提升到我们试图从 OKR 角度推动的整体业务成果以及我们拥有的整体业务战略。

So people take that product strategy, white paper or artifact, and then against that they're building their roadmaps which get updated every three months.

因此，人们采用产品策略、白皮书或工件，然后根据这些策略制定路线图，每三个月更新一次。

Then inside of the teams, we enable teams to be quite autonomous in terms of some of the rituals that they're doing.

然后在团队内部，我们让团队在他们正在做的一些仪式上具有相当的自主性。

We want them to obviously embrace best practices.

我们希望他们明显采用最佳实践。

We've got a team of agile coaches that share best practices or are available to help if there's certain specific needs that teams have.

我们拥有一支敏捷教练团队，他们分享最佳实践，或者在团队有某些特定需求时提供帮助。

Varun Parmar: Then I think on top of that, there are certain key, I would say, rituals that we do that maybe are unique.

Varun Parmar：那么我认为除此之外，我想说的是，我们所做的某些关键仪式可能是独一无二的。

For example, we have something called as Miro Connect, which happens every other Friday.

例如，我们有一个名为 Miro Connect 的活动，每隔周五举行一次。

Every other Friday, for example, in our Amsterdam office, you can go in there and at 4:00 in the afternoon, 4:00 to 7:00 or 8:00, and sometimes it goes really late, you've got a bunch of product teams sitting around tables and it feels like, "Oh, it's like a pitch or something." And people are coming in, they're having a good time, you've got a drink in your hand, there's maybe some light music playing in the background and you're going from table to table and you have teams that are actually showing all the amazing work that...

例如，每隔一个星期五，在我们的阿姆斯特丹办公室，你可以在下午 4:00、4:00 到 7:00 或 8:00 去那里，有时会很晚，你会看到一群产品团队围坐在桌子旁，感觉就像是，“哦，这就像一场推销什么的。”人们进来，他们玩得很开心，你手里拿着一杯饮料，背景中可能会播放一些轻音乐，你从一张桌子走到另一张桌子，你的团队实际上正在展示所有令人惊叹的作品……

If done right, it happens once in a while, but if done right, it's magical in terms of the outcomes that you can get.

如果做得好，这种情况偶尔会发生一次，但如果做得好，你可以获得的结果是神奇的。

Varun Parmar: I'll tell you, there was a team that actually was presenting at our Berlin hub and they were saying, "We're working on this feature, and there's an engineer who walks over to that desk and says, 'What are you working on?'" The team describes it, "Oh, we are trying to do something like this." And this engineer had actually worked on that particular problem in their prior life, literally they had implemented this.

Varun Parmar：我告诉你，有一个团队实际上正在我们的柏林中心进行演示，他们说：“我们正在研究这个功能，有一位工程师走到那张办公桌前说，‘你在做什么？’”团队描述道，“哦，我们正在尝试做这样的事情。”这位工程师在前世实际上已经解决了这个特定问题，实际上他们已经实现了这个。

So he says, "So how are you going to implement this?" And the team, the engineer that's sitting there, says, "This is the approach I'm going to take and it's going to take me three months." He's like, "Oh, would you mind if I go and help you with this?" They're like, "Sure, more the merrier.

所以他说：“那么你打算如何实施呢？”坐在那儿的团队、工程师说：“这就是我要采取的方法，需要三个月的时间。”他就像是，“哦，你介意我去帮你做这件事吗？”他们会说：“当然，越多越好。

Go ahead." So this person puts down their beer and says, "Okay, I'm having a good time.

继续吧。”于是这个人放下啤酒说：“好吧，我玩得很开心。

Let me just head back to my home." And in the next three or four hours goes and codes the entire thing, makes a poll request.

让我先回我家去吧。”在接下来的三四个小时内，对整个事情进行编码，提出民意调查请求。

Varun Parmar: Next day in the morning one of the engineers from this core team that was exhibiting at Miro Connect looks at the poll request, reviews the code and says, "Yes, something that would have taken three months for this core team because they didn't have the expertise literally got done in three hours because there was another engineer that ran into them and said, "I know how this is done.

Varun Parmar：第二天早上，在 Miro Connect 上展示的核心团队的一位工程师查看了民意调查请求，审查了代码，并说道：“是的，对于这个核心团队来说，因为没有专业知识而需要三个月才能完成的事情实际上在三个小时内就完成了，因为有另一位工程师遇到他们并说：“我知道这是如何完成的。

I can actually help you here," and went ahead and did the right thing.

我实际上可以在这里帮助你”，然后继续做正确的事情。

We are trying to create these magic moments.

我们正在努力创造这些神奇的时刻。

It happens once in a while, but we have one success story and I like to tell that in every opportunity that I get.

这种情况偶尔会发生，但我们有一个成功的故事，我喜欢在每一个机会中讲述这一故事。

But that's another sort of unique thing that we've done in terms of book-ending things around how we operate here.

但这是我们在围绕我们如何在这里运作的书籍结尾方面所做的另一种独特的事情。

Lenny: That story is like a dream for any PM.

莱尼：这个故事对于任何首相来说都像是一个梦想。

Just imagine saving months of work with one conversation.

想象一下，通过一次对话可以节省数月的工作。

I imagine people were like, "How do we replicate this often?" I love that.

我想人们会想，“我们如何经常复制这种情况？”我喜欢那个。

With these meetings, just to understand, if their team is in Berlin, let's say, there's a screen there in front of a table and they're talking through a screen, like a video conference?

通过这些会议，只是为了了解，如果他们的团队在柏林，比如说，桌子前面有一个屏幕，他们通过屏幕进行交谈，就像视频会议一样？

Varun Parmar: Yeah.

瓦伦·帕尔玛：是的。

I mean, right now what we've figured out is that it is really hard to do these events over audio-video conferencing and stuff.

我的意思是，现在我们发现通过音频视频会议之类的方式举办这些活动真的很困难。

So generally what happens is that you have an audio-video bridge that's playing, but mostly it's people walking up to the respective teams and then having a live conversation.

因此，通常会发生的情况是，您有一个正在播放的音频-视频桥，但大多数情况下，人们走到各自的团队面前，然后进行现场对话。

That's usually how these things are operated.

这些东西通常就是这样运作的。

Yeah.

是的。

Lenny: Got it.

莱尼：明白了。

Okay, so you have six month rolling roadmaps.

好的，您已经有了六个月的滚动路线图。

You have a yearly vision strategy for the company, two week sprints.

您为公司制定了年度愿景战略，为期两周的冲刺。

Is there also a quarterly OKR sort of process or is it-

是否还有季度 OKR 流程，或者是-

Lenny: ...

莱尼：……

those or not?

那些与否？

There is, okay.

有的，好吧。

Lenny: Can you just talk a little bit about how that works?

莱尼：你能简单谈谈它是如何运作的吗？

Varun Parmar: Yes, yes, yes.

瓦伦·帕尔玛：是的，是的，是的。

At Miro, we practice OKRs and it starts off at the company level, and then those company level OKRs are taken by the AMPED organization.

在 Miro，我们实践 OKR，从公司级别开始，然后这些公司级别的 OKR 由 AMPED 组织采用。

Like we describe, it's the AMPED organization, and then we break it up and I would say we have refined it over the period of time, the two years that I've been at Miro.

就像我们所描述的那样，这是 AMPED 组织，然后我们将其分解，我想说，在我在 Miro 的两年里，我们已经对其进行了完善。

Early on we were doing OKRs on a quarterly basis, and I would say more recently we've actually evolved to six month KRs.

早期我们每季度进行一次 OKR，我想说最近我们实际上已经发展到了六个月的 KR。

What we found was that six month was the right cadence in terms of giving enough time for teams to basically push forward in executing these KRS and minimizing the "overhead" of doing replan every single quarter.

我们发现，六个月是正确的节奏，可以为团队提供足够的时间来基本上推进执行这些 KRS，并最大限度地减少每个季度重新计划的“开销”。

We found that it was much more effective and efficient for the entire organization to do it on a six-month basis.

我们发现，对于整个组织来说，每六个月完成一次工作会更加有效和高效。

However, we are doing traction on a monthly basis.

然而，我们每月都会进行牵引。

So every four weeks, as AMPED, we are looking at our KRS for the AMPED organization on a monthly basis doing traction.

因此，每四个星期，作为 AMPED，我们都会每月为 AMPED 组织查看我们的 KRS，以进行牵引。

However, the planning, the targets, are done on a six-month basis.

然而，规划、目标是每六个月完成一次。

Lenny: I love how OKRs could just be anything, could be every six months, could have objectives, could have key results.

Lenny：我喜欢 OKR 可以是任何东西，可以每六个月一次，可以有目标，可以有关键结果。

It's just such a term that just applies to anything that people do with goals, basically.

基本上，这个术语适用于人们为实现目标所做的任何事情。

Lenny: Again, if there's any templates that your team could share of the way you do that stuff, that would be amazing, and we'll include that in the show notes.

莱尼：再说一遍，如果您的团队可以分享您做这些事情的方式的任何模板，那就太棒了，我们会将其包含在演出笔记中。

Varun Parmar: Yeah, absolutely.

瓦伦·帕尔玛：是的，绝对如此。

Because I think, as you would expect, we run Miro on Miro, so there's a lot of things that we could share as templates in terms of how we are running things on Miro, not just as OKRs, but in terms of product reviews.

因为我认为，正如您所期望的，我们在 Miro 上运行 Miro，因此我们可以在 Miro 上运行东西方面作为模板共享很多东西，不仅仅是 OKR，还包括产品评论。

We have ways of how we are doing asynchronous reviews combined with synchronous reviews and there's this blended experiences that we have, and so we can definitely share out with the community how we do some of these things.

我们有一些方法可以将异步审核与同步审核相结合，并且我们拥有混合的经验，因此我们绝对可以与社区分享我们如何做其中一些事情。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

That's a great segue to another question I was going to ask is just what other tools, what's in the stack of the product team's workflow?

这是我要问的另一个问题的一个很好的延续，即产品团队工作流程堆栈中还有哪些其他工具？

So Miro, obviously.

显然，米罗。

Maybe talk about what use Miro for, but then what else is in there?

也许可以谈谈 Miro 的用途，但那里面还有什么呢？

What do you use for task management, bug tracking, things like that?

您用什么来进行任务管理、错误跟踪等？

Design?

设计？

Varun Parmar: Starting from the bottom-up infrastructure view, so all of our tickets are handled in Jira and we are using some of the newer capabilities in Jira in terms of coming up with roadmaps and coming up with the priorities and stuff.

Varun Parmar：从自下而上的基础设施视图开始，我们所有的请求都在 Jira 中处理，我们正在使用 Jira 中的一些新功能来制定路线图并提出优先级和内容。

On top of that, all of the specs generally get recorded in Confluence.

最重要的是，所有规范通常都会记录在 Confluence 中。

Having said that, we're actually a big fan of tools like Google Docs as well as Coda that allows us to track our KRs in a pretty effective way.

话虽如此，我们实际上是 Google Docs 和 Coda 等工具的忠实粉丝，它们使我们能够以非常有效的方式跟踪我们的 KR。

On top of that, obviously we use Miro a lot, I would say for a lot of our things, especially on the product and design side of the team.

最重要的是，显然我们经常使用 Miro，我想说的是我们的很多事情，特别是在团队的产品和设计方面。

Generally all of our insights get captured inside of Miro board, so when we are going and conducting user experience interviews and stuff, we will record those and then those recordings get added to a Miro board, so Miro access the content hub or a team hub for a particular project.

一般来说，我们所有的见解都会在 Miro board 中捕获，因此当我们进行用户体验访谈等时，我们会记录这些内容，然后将这些录音添加到 Miro board 中，以便 Miro 访问特定项目的内容中心或团队中心。

Varun Parmar: Once you capture all of those insights, then generally all of the brainstorming and team ideation happens on the Miro board as well, so Miro's actually also used as a tool to facilitate meetings and workshops.

Varun Parmar：一旦您掌握了所有这些见解，那么通常所有的头脑风暴和团队构思也会在 Miro 板上进行，因此 Miro 实际上也被用作促进会议和研讨会的工具。

Once all of that is synthesized into a set of recommendations and outcomes, so when we go into these product reviews that we were talking about, Lenny, the same Miro board then gets manifested into a set of presentations, so we use Miro for presentations.

一旦所有这些都综合成一组建议和结果，那么当我们进入我们正在谈论的这些产品评论时，Lenny，同一个 Miro 板就会出现在一组演示文稿中，所以我们使用 Miro 进行演示。

We've actually made some really amazing updates in terms of our capabilities there and if folks haven't checked them out, I would strongly encourage them.

事实上，我们已经在我们的功能方面做了一些非常惊人的更新，如果人们还没有检查过它们，我会强烈鼓励他们。

There's a capability called Showtime that basically abstracts out the UI and lets people focus on the content, but do it in a way that it's interactive so everyone that's on the call can have reactions, can share their comments and leave comments while the presentation is happening without actually disrupting any of the flow for the user, so we use that a lot for presentations as well.

有一种称为 Showtime 的功能，它基本上抽象了 UI，让人们专注于内容，但以交互的方式进行，这样每个通话中的人都可以做出反应，可以在演示进行时分享他们的评论并留下评论，而不会真正扰乱用户的任何流程，所以我们在演示中也经常使用它。

Varun Parmar: I would say more recently what we've started to do is that we've started to move some of our synchronous meetings into asynchro view.

Varun Parmar：我想说的是，最近我们开始做的是，我们已经开始将一些同步会议转移到异步视图中。

I talked about this Talktrack feature that we have, and a lot of teams, what they would do is that they would actually send you five minute, 10 minute Talktrack in advance and it's just a link to a Miro board, you click on it and then you just sit back and relax.

我谈到了我们拥有的 Talktrack 功能，很多团队会做的是，他们实际上会提前向您发送 5 分钟、10 分钟的 Talktrack，它只是一个指向 Miro 板的链接，您单击它，然后您就坐下来放松一下。

Then you have this magical experience where you're sitting back and the Miro board is automatically moving because Lenny was recording it like that.

然后你就会有这种神奇的体验，你坐下来，Miro 板会自动移动，因为 Lenny 就是这样记录的。

Then you have the video play and then you can pause it anytime, you can add in your comments and stuff so that the next time when you meet, instead of actually providing context to everyone, those synchronous sessions are lot more deliberate and focused on driving outcomes or achieving consensus, so people are just focusing on the comments that were added as part of a async product review so that when they meet synchronously they can use that.

然后你可以播放视频，然后你可以随时暂停它，你可以添加你的评论和内容，这样下次见面时，这些同步会议就不会真正向每个人提供背景信息，而是更加深思熟虑，专注于推动结果或达成共识，因此人们只关注作为异步产品评论的一部分添加的评论，以便当他们同步见面时他们可以使用这些评论。

Miro boards are used for that as well.

Miro 板也用于此目的。

Varun Parmar: I would say now a lot of our dashboarding shows up in Miro boards now.

Varun Parmar：我想说现在我们的很多仪表板都出现在 Miro 板上。

We recently released data visualization capabilities around most popular VI tools.

我们最近发布了围绕最流行的 VI 工具的数据可视化功能。

At Miro we use Google Looker a lot, so a lot of our dashboards are in Looker, and what you would typically find is that our analyst team and product teams will just grab a link to a Looker dashboard, put it on a Miro board, and it unfolds into a full visualization.

在 Miro，我们经常使用 Google Looker，因此我们的很多仪表板都在 Looker 中，您通常会发现我们的分析师团队和产品团队只需获取 Looker 仪表板的链接，将其放在 Miro 板上，然后它就会展开为完整的可视化。

Unlike a screen grab, you never have to go update it because right there on the Miro board, it's always updated and you can refresh that, so you basically have this experience where Miro acts as that single source of truth for a lot of the teams across the entire journey of product development where a single Miro board is meeting the needs of multiple use cases there.

与屏幕抓取不同，您永远不必去更新它，因为在 Miro 板上，它始终会更新并且您可以刷新它，因此您基本上会有这样的体验：Miro 在整个产品开发过程中充当许多团队的单一事实来源，其中单个 Miro 板可以满足多个用例的需求。

Lenny: Then for the road-mapping, is that in Miro, each team's roadmap, or do you use something like Jira?

Lenny：那么路线图是在 Miro 中，每个团队的路线图，还是使用 Jira 之类的东西？

Varun Parmar: Yeah, so I think we've got a couple of tools for road-mapping, and our observation is that while those tools are great for the unique needs that they're solving, we haven't found a universal solution for road-mapping.

Varun Parmar：是的，所以我认为我们有一些用于路线图绘制的工具，我们的观察是，虽然这些工具非常适合它们正在解决的独特需求，但我们还没有找到通用的路线图绘制解决方案。

So there are some teams that use Miro for road-mapping and they would use the Kanban widget in Miro for that.

因此，有些团队使用 Miro 进行路线图绘制，他们会使用 Miro 中的看板小部件。

What are they working on?

他们在做什么？

What's coming next?

接下来会发生什么？

What's in the backlog?

积压的订单中有什么？

But I would say it is a problem that is not completely solved in terms of how do we actually bring these artifacts together at scale.

但我想说的是，就我们如何真正大规模地将这些工件整合在一起而言，这是一个尚未完全解决的问题。

Varun Parmar: What we are starting to see, and this is actually a unique use case of Miro, is that we actually enable our entire field organization using Talktracks.

Varun Parmar：我们开始看到的是，这实际上是 Miro 的一个独特用例，我们实际上使用 Talktracks 启用了整个现场组织。

What happens is that we have our entire roadmap published out as a Miro board for enablement purposes, so that that's a artifact that is approved to be shown to a customer.

所发生的情况是，我们将整个路线图发布为 Miro 板以用于支持目的，因此这是一个被批准向客户展示的工件。

What you will see is that you'll see five or six recordings in there, and the leader for enterprise has done a five-minute recording on everything they're working on.

你会看到那里有五六个录音，企业领导已经对他们正在做的所有事情做了五分钟的录音。

The leader for platform has done that.

平台的领导者已经做到了这一点。

The leader for end user experience has done that.

最终用户体验的领导者已经做到了这一点。

The person who's driving some of our AI experience has done that.

推动我们的人工智能体验的人已经做到了这一点。

So you can go in and you can just click on that video and you can meet your needs by using Miro and this capability that we have.

所以你可以进去，只需点击那个视频，你就可以通过使用 Miro 和我们拥有的这种功能来满足你的需求。

Lenny: That's awesome.

莱尼：那太棒了。

It sounds like each team can basically choose the tools they want to use.

听起来每个团队基本上都可以选择他们想要使用的工具。

There's no standardized, everyone needs to use Jira or Miro for their roadmap.

没有标准化，每个人都需要使用 Jira 或 Miro 作为他们的路线图。

I like that.

我喜欢这样。

I like how teams do that often.

我喜欢团队经常这样做。

Maybe one last question around the product org, and then I want to shift a little bit to growth and how Miro grows and things you have learned about growing.

也许是关于产品组织的最后一个问题，然后我想稍微转向增长以及 Miro 如何增长以及你学到的关于增长的事情。

Question I always try to get to is how do you think about balancing new bets and innovation with maintenance and just general incremental work?

我总是想问的问题是，您如何看待平衡新的赌注和创新与维护和一般增量工作？

Do you have some sort of philosophy as a product leader broadly, and then maybe at Miro specifically, of just how to balance investments in these two buckets and maybe three buckets, bugs, incremental work, and then just big bet?

作为一个广泛的产品领导者，或者具体来说，在 Miro，你是否有某种哲学，即如何平衡这两个桶甚至三个桶的投资、错误、增量工作，然后只是大赌注？

How do you think about that?

您对此有何看法？

Varun Parmar: We have some rule of thumbs in terms of how we want to allocate our investments across these buckets.

Varun Parmar：对于如何在这些领域分配投资，我们有一些经验法则。

I would say a lot of it, Lenny, actually depends on the state of the team.

我想说很多，莱尼，实际上取决于球队的状态。

There are certain teams that have more tech debt than others.

有些团队比其他团队拥有更多的技术债务。

There are certain teams that are actually working on some really big zero to one features than other teams, and so I think there is a variance.

与其他团队相比，某些团队实际上正在开发一些非常大的零到一功能，因此我认为存在差异。

The standard deviation actually is dependent on which part of the spectrum that you're in, which is are you a team that we believe needs to create the next generation experience on the platform and hence we have to prioritize innovative work or are you the team that's actually so critical to actually meeting our objective around better board performance or any of the other things that we believe are important and hence we need to invest in those critical areas?

标准偏差实际上取决于您所处的范围，您是我们认为需要在平台上创建下一代体验的团队，因此我们必须优先考虑创新工作，还是您的团队实际上对于真正实现我们围绕更好的董事会绩效或任何我们认为重要的其他事情的目标至关重要，因此我们需要在这些关键领域进行投资？

Varun Parmar: But I would say in general innovation versus not, varies on a spectrum of anywhere from 60 to 80%.

Varun Parmar：但我想说的是，总的来说，创新与非创新的差异在 60% 到 80% 之间。

I would say about 20 to 40% of the available capacity at any given time is either getting allocated to architectural initiatives.

我想说，在任何给定时间，大约 20% 到 40% 的可用容量要么被分配给架构计划。

There's a technology roadmap that our CTO is driving that we believe is extremely important as the platform scales, and now as we have over 50 million people on the platform, so we continuously have to invest in making sure that the platform can scale.

我们的 CTO 正在制定一个技术路线图，我们认为随着平台的扩展，该路线图极其重要，现在我们平台上的用户已超过 5000 万人，因此我们必须不断投资，以确保平台能够扩展。

There are certain teams that probably have 40 to 50% of their allocation towards that because they're a critical part of the component.

有些团队可能将 40% 到 50% 的分配用于此，因为他们是该组件的关键部分。

There are other teams that are maybe more end user focused and are more UI focused where that allocation is lower.

还有其他团队可能更关注最终用户，并且更关注 UI，但分配较低。

But I think general rule of thumb is 20% is always a given, but it can go as high as 40 to 50%.

但我认为一般经验法则是 20% 始终是给定的，但也可以高达 40% 到 50%。

Lenny: On bigger bets and longer-term thinking?

莱尼：更大的赌注和更长远的思考？

Varun Parmar: Yeah, 20 to 40% goes on the technology-related initiatives and maintenance and stuff.

Varun Parmar：是的，20% 到 40% 用于与技术相关的计划和维护等工作。

Lenny: Oh, got it.

莱尼：哦，明白了。

Infrastructure, maintenance, making sure everything's there.

基础设施、维护，确保一切就绪。

Got it.

知道了。

Lenny: Then what about just big, long-term bets that you're not expecting to pay off anytime soon?

莱尼：那么，如果你不指望很快就能得到回报，那么那些长期的大赌注又如何呢？

Do you have a heuristic of just what percentage of, say, total resources you put there?

您是否有一个启发式方法来计算您投入的资源占总资源的百分比？

Varun Parmar: You've probably seen this, the framework of three horizon, it's quite popular in McKinsey and Harvard school and so on and so forth, is horizon one business, which is the thing that's delivering food on the table.

Varun Parmar：你可能已经看到了，三地平线的框架，在麦肯锡和哈佛等学校非常流行，是地平线一业务，就是在餐桌上提供食物的东西。

Generally there's about a 70% allocation of resources that we have, give or take.

一般来说，我们拥有、给予或获取的资源分配大约有 70%。

Then there is horizon two, which is an adjacent thing.

然后是地平线二，这是一个相邻的东西。

With the next 12 to 36 months we believe it's material.

在接下来的 12 到 36 个月里，我们相信这是重要的。

Usually that tends to be around 20% of the allocation.

通常这往往是分配的 20% 左右。

Then there's horizon three, which is three years out, three to five years, next generation things, and that's about 10% of the ratio.

然后是第三阶段，即三年后，三到五年，下一代的东西，大约占比例的 10%。

So it's like 70/20/10 across horizon one, two, and three.

所以它就像 70/20/10 跨越地平线一、二和三。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

Any other thoughts along the lines of just how you think about product before we shift?

在我们转变之前，您对产品的看法还有什么其他想法吗？

I only have a few questions around the growth story of Miro and what you've learned about growing.

关于米罗的成长故事以及你对成长的了解，我只有几个问题。

Varun Parmar: In terms of product leadership and what we believe is the way we want product leaders to be developed and I think it's more of a people philosophy.

Varun Parmar：就产品领导力而言，我们相信我们希望产品领导者的培养方式，我认为这更多的是一种人的哲学。

We have our product leadership which constitutes of all of the folks who are running all of these streams, and I always tell them that you have two personas that you have to think about.

我们的产品领导层由运行所有这些流程的所有人员组成，我总是告诉他们，你必须考虑两个角色。

Everyone who's on the product leadership team is a product leadership team member.

产品领导团队中的每个人都是产品领导团队成员。

The fundamental thing that you have to do is drive accountability.

你必须做的最根本的事情是推动问责制。

The number one thing that a product leader on the product leadership team needs to do is drive accountability with others in the product leadership team.

产品领导团队中的产品负责人需要做的第一件事就是推动产品领导团队中其他人的责任。

The other persona that they have is that they are a stream leader.

他们的另一个角色是他们是一个流领导者。

They're actually responsible for delivering value for the respective persona and respective customers and stuff.

他们实际上负责为各自的角色、各自的客户和物品提供价值。

So when you put on the persona hat of a stream leader, which is different than the persona or of a product leader, your number one metric, the number one goal that you have, is drive improvement.

因此，当你戴上流领导者的角色帽子时，这与产品领导者的角色不同，你的第一个指标，你的第一个目标，就是推动改进。

Varun Parmar: When you go back and you work with your team, always have the lens are you improving things and whatever you want to improve, but you always have to ask yourself, "Today compared to yesterday, tomorrow compared to today, have I improved things?

Varun Parmar：当你回去与你的团队一起工作时，总是要时刻关注你正在改进的东西以及你想要改进的任何东西，但你总是要问自己，“今天与昨天相比，明天与今天相比，我有改进吗？

That's the yardstick you should think about.

这才是你应该考虑的标准。

When you go sit in the product leadership team every Monday afternoon at 1:00 in the afternoon when we meet together, your number one goal is actually to drive accountability around this and are you making sure that we as leaders in the organization are doing the right thing for the company?" I think that's a philosophical construct that I always remind people in terms of what they should be doing.

当你每周一下午 1:00 坐在产品领导团队中，我们一起开会时，你的首要目标实际上是围绕这个问题推动问责制，你是否确保我们作为组织中的领导者正在为公司做正确的事情？”我认为这是一种哲学结构，我总是提醒人们应该做什么。

As an example, tomorrow we have calibrations, we have our annual review cycle happening in the company.

举个例子，明天我们将进行校准，我们将在公司进行年度审查周期。

Varun Parmar: Yes, exactly, always fun and so critical as a leader, because it sets the tone for everything that you're going to do.

Varun Parmar：是的，确实如此，作为领导者总是很有趣且至关重要，因为它为你要做的一切定下了基调。

In my opening remarks, the only thing I'm going to remind everyone in the room is that "Your number one goal here is to be a product leader and accountability is what you have to write.

在我的开场白中，我要提醒房间里每个人的唯一一件事是“你的首要目标是成为产品领导者，责任感是你必须写的。

That's it.

就是这样。

Just hold each other as accountable, including myself in terms of making sure that as we go in, that's the key thing." I think once people understand the duality of how they need to operate across those two specific goals, it actually leads to really high-performing teams and teams that actually are able to create somewhat of a magic if they are open and there is trust that has been built in the team.

只要让彼此负责，包括我自己，确保我们进入时，这是关键的事情。”我认为，一旦人们理解了他们需要如何实现这两个具体目标的双重性，它实际上会带来真正高绩效的团队，并且如果他们开放并且团队中建立了信任，这些团队实际上能够创造某种魔力。

Lenny: When you say accountability, what does that look like?

莱尼：当你说责任时，它是什么样的？

Is it pointing out, "Hey, you didn't achieve this thing we were trying to achieve" or "You didn't do a great job leading this meeting"?

是在指出“嘿，你没有实现我们想要实现的目标”或者“你在领导这次会议方面做得不好”？

Is it just direct feedback often or is there some other way you see that manifested, and what do you like to see?

经常只是直接反馈，还是有其他你认为表现出来的方式，你喜欢看到什么？

Varun Parmar: Yeah, I think it's basically practicing feedback in a very open and constructive way and focusing on what is important for the business and not shying away from having some of those observations and conversations, not shying away from them.

Varun Parmar：是的，我认为这基本上是以一种非常开放和建设性的方式实践反馈，并专注于对业务重要的事情，而不是回避其中的一些观察和对话，而不是回避它们。

But it's all in the lens of what is the right thing to do for the business, and if you feel that that one or more members of the leadership team are not living up to what needs to be done, then just voicing it.

但这一切都取决于什么是对企业来说正确的事情，如果你觉得领导团队的一名或多名成员没有做到需要做的事情，那就直接表达出来。

It's not like you're complaining or anything, it's just like, "I have this perspective.

这不像是你在抱怨什么，只是说，“我有这个观点。

Is this the right perspective or not?" Because actually it ties very well with the overall cultural values that we have.

这是正确的观点吗？”因为实际上它与我们的整体文化价值观密切相关。

Varun Parmar: If you do things with the lens that you are being empathetic, then you pose it as a question as opposed to a statement.

Varun Parmar：如果你用同理心的视角做事，那么你就会将其作为一个问题而不是一个陈述提出。

I think that's one of the things that we practice a lot at Miro is that I believe that I am seeing there are certain things that are happening that it could be just me that I'm not seeing the other things.

我认为我们在米罗经常练习的一件事是，我相信我看到了某些正在发生的事情，可能只有我一个人没有看到其他事情。

"But what is it?

“但是那是什么？

Can you help me understand?

你能帮我理解一下吗？

Can you help me figure out that why certain things are happening?

你能帮我弄清楚为什么会发生某些事情吗？

Because I might just be missing the perspective." But because you bring it up, and that's part of practicing accountability in an empathetic way, it actually gets the entire team in the right mindset in terms of how they operate.

因为我可能只是缺少视角。”但因为你提出了这个问题，而且这是以同理心的方式实践问责制的一部分，所以它实际上让整个团队在运作方式方面处于正确的心态。

Lenny: Has anyone given you some sort of direct feedback recently or pointed out something you didn't do well that held you accountable that you can share?

Lenny：最近有没有人给过你一些直接的反馈，或者指出你做得不好的事情，让你承担责任，你可以分享吗？

Varun Parmar: All the time.

瓦伦·帕尔玛：一直如此。

Yeah, all the time.

是的，一直如此。

When we do our offsites, this is actually a fun thing, is that every offsite that I do with my leadership team, usually there is a one to two hour session where it is feedback to Varun, and I actually do it openly.

当我们进行场外活动时，这实际上是一件有趣的事情，我与领导团队进行的每次场外活动，通常都会有一个一到两个小时的会议，向 Varun 提供反馈，而且我实际上是公开进行的。

I will have about eight to 10 people in the room and I will force people to be very honest and I want to show my vulnerabilities to everyone, that I am not perfect and I have lots of areas to improve.

我的房间里大约有 8 到 10 个人，我会强迫人们非常诚实，我想向每个人展示我的弱点，我并不完美，我还有很多需要改进的地方。

Every time people do it, it's interesting that they open up in very amazing ways and I think I love it because it helps me become better.

有趣的是，每次人们这样做时，他们都会以非常惊人的方式敞开心扉，我想我喜欢它，因为它帮助我变得更好。

It helps me identify my blind spots.

它帮助我识别我的盲点。

But what it does is, because I do it in an open way, it brings a lot of trust.

但它所做的是，因为我以开放的方式做这件事，它带来了很多信任。

It brings trust that I do it openly and I'm an open book and they can share whatever they want, not just with me but openly in front of everyone.

它带来了信任，我公开地这样做，我是一本打开的书，他们可以分享他们想要的任何东西，不仅与我分享，而且在所有人面前公开分享。

Lenny: Are you willing to share one thing they suggested that they pointed out that they wish you did differently or better?

莱尼：你愿意分享他们建议的一件事情，他们指出他们希望你做得不同或更好吗？

Varun Parmar: Yeah, I think in general, finding time with me tends to be a bit of a hard thing, and generally there's always this feedback, which is need more time, maybe more responsiveness over email or Slack or something like that.

Varun Parmar：是的，我认为总的来说，找时间和我在一起往往是一件有点困难的事情，而且通常总是有这样的反馈，需要更多的时间，也许需要通过电子邮件或 Slack 或类似的东西做出更多的响应。

That's an area that I'm constantly working on and improving, so yeah.

这是我不断努力和改进的一个领域，所以是的。

Lenny: That feels like a cop out.

莱尼：这感觉就像是逃避现实。

That doesn't feel too painful to hear.

听上去并不觉得太痛苦。

I'm like, "Yeah, yeah, I know.

我就像，“是的，是的，我知道。

I don't have a lot of time.

我没有很多时间。

I'm sorry." But I get it, and that comes back to your point about blockers and how important it's to unblock teams because that leads to a lot faster progress.

对不起。”但我明白了，这又回到了你关于阻碍者的观点，以及解除团队阻碍的重要性，因为这会带来更快的进展。

Lenny: Okay, so let me shift a little bit to Miro's growth and I only have a few questions here.

莱尼：好的，让我稍微谈谈米罗的成长，我这里只有几个问题。

I know it's getting late on your side so I don't want to keep you too long.

我知道你已经很晚了所以我不想让你呆太久。

Lenny: The first is something I'm on this constant quest to understand how companies got their first users, and I haven't actually heard the story of how Miro got its first thousand users or customers.

Lenny：首先，我一直在寻求了解公司如何获得第一批用户，但我实际上还没有听说过 Miro 如何获得第一批用户或客户的故事。

I know you weren't there in the early days, but you happen to know how Miro initially grew and got their first thousand users and customers?

我知道您早期并不在场，但您碰巧知道 Miro 最初是如何成长并获得第一批一千名用户和客户的？

Varun Parmar: I think the fundamental thing there is that we always had user first approach and reaching out to certain communities that were relevant to what was a key part of lighting the fire, if you will, the proverbial way people start to talk about the product.

Varun Parmar：我认为最根本的是，我们始终坚持用户至上的方法，并接触某些与点燃火种关键部分相关的社区，如果你愿意的话，就像人们开始谈论产品的众所周知的方式一样。

Given the collaborative nature of the product, some of the early adopters invited people who were also early adopters and the flywheel started to work.

考虑到该产品的协作性质，一些早期采用者邀请了同样是早期采用者的人，飞轮开始工作。

I've heard that we did a fair amount of content marketing and listing the product on sites like Capterra sort of helped.

我听说我们进行了大量的内容营销，并在 Capterra 等网站上列出产品，这有点帮助。

There was some early investments in terms of SEO and organic growth, so there was a focus there, which was the main source of driving traffic.

在搜索引擎优化和有机增长方面有一些早期投资，因此有一个重点，这是推动流量的主要来源。

The top of the funnel came through that.

漏斗的顶部就通过了。

Varun Parmar: The product teams were very intensely focused on building vital loops as a key mechanism of driving growth, once the traffic came in.

Varun Parmar：一旦流量进入，产品团队就非常专注于构建重要的循环，作为推动增长的关键机制。

Every interaction that actually introduced barrier, they looked at it and they looked at the data and they said, "Let's reduce this barrier.

每一次实际引入障碍的互动，他们都会查看它并查看数据，然后说：“让我们减少这个障碍。

Let's remove this thing so that the product could be effectively embraced." It was an evolution over a period of time.

让我们把这个东西去掉，这样产品才能被有效地接受。”这是一段时间内的演变。

There was also the fact that early on in the journey, some of the features were presented on a trial basis and then later on the model was evolved from a trial basis, time limited to a premium model that further accelerated the growth for the business.

还有一个事实是，在旅程的早期，一些功能是在试用的基础上推出的，后来该模型从试用、有时间限制的模型演变为高级模型，进一步加速了业务的增长。

I would say those were some of the approaches that were taken to get to the first thousand users or so.

我想说的是，这些是为吸引第一批大约一千名用户而采取的一些方法。

Lenny: You talked about how Miro grows, where it has this magical loop of "I use Miro to for myself, then I share it with my team in whatever way I'm using it." They're like, "Oh, Miro, this is cool." Then they start using it and then they share it with people that they want to work with, and it creates this loop of growth." I imagine that's how Miro mostly grew initially and continues to grow.

Lenny：您谈到了 Miro 的成长过程，它有一个神奇的循环：“我为自己使用 Miro，然后以我使用的任何方式与我的团队分享它。”他们会说，“哦，米罗，这太酷了。”然后他们开始使用它，然后与他们想要合作的人分享它，这就创造了这个增长循环。”我想这就是米罗最初的成长和持续成长的方式。

Is there anything surprising or unintuitive about how Miro grows that is beyond that?

除此之外，米罗的成长过程还有什么令人惊讶或不直观的地方吗？

I imagine sales is a part of it and we can talk about that, but is there anything else that is interesting that is worth mentioning?

我想销售是其中的一部分，我们可以讨论这一点，但是还有其他有趣的事情值得一提吗？

Varun Parmar: No, I think that's the key of the growth.

Varun Parmar：不，我认为这是增长的关键。

I think there are specific use cases where they are uniquely sort of geared towards inviting a lot of new people.

我认为有一些特定的用例，它们独特地适合邀请很多新人。

For example, Miro is loved as a workshopping tool, and so generally one person is using Miro, but they invite 10, 15, 20, 50, 200, 300 people to that workshop.

例如，Miro 作为一种研讨会工具受到喜爱，因此通常一个人在使用 Miro，但他们会邀请 10、15、20、50、200、300 人参加该研讨会。

There are specific use cases where people get introduced to the product and then go and sign up for it and then start to use it for that use case or other use cases.

在某些特定的用例中，人们会先了解该产品，然后注册该产品，然后开始将其用于该用例或其他用例。

I think the other accelerant in all of this is the templates that we have, in particular the role that Miroverse plays in all of this.

我认为这一切的另一个促进剂是我们拥有的模板，特别是 Miroverse 在这一切中扮演的角色。

Varun Parmar: Just to give you an example here, there was a template which was created around FIFA World Cup, so there was a FIFA World Cup diagram.

Varun Parmar：举个例子，有一个围绕 FIFA 世界杯创建的模板，所以有一个 FIFA 世界杯图表。

Cornelius, he's the founder and managing director of a Canadian strategic service design consultancy firm.

Cornelius，他是加拿大一家战略服务设计咨询公司的创始人兼董事总经理。

He created this Miroverse template and it had over 100,000 views and about 15,000 copies were made of the single template.

他创建了这个 Miroverse 模板，该模板获得了超过 100,000 次浏览，并且该模板被制作了约 15,000 份副本。

Given the popularity of all of this, it actually got indexed by Google.

鉴于所有这些的受欢迎程度，它实际上被谷歌索引了。

When you went in the search, you actually saw the Miroverse FIFA template show up when you were trying to search for FIFA World Cup, and that was another sort of acquisition channel top of funnel that actually drew a lot of users to it.

当你进行搜索时，当你尝试搜索 FIFA 世界杯时，你实际上会看到 Miroverse FIFA 模板出现，这是漏斗顶部的另一种获取渠道，实际上吸引了很多用户。

So I think I would say the Miroverse is also a key accelerant to this.

所以我想我会说 Miroverse 也是一个关键的促进剂。

Lenny: If you had to think about the pie chart of how Miro grows, what percentage roughly would you say is word of mouth, organic, versus what you just described, which is essentially a CO versus sales, outbound sales?

Lenny：如果你必须考虑 Miro 如何增长的饼图，你会说口碑、有机增长的百分比与你刚才描述的（本质上是 CO 与销售、对外销售）的百分比是多少？

How do you think about that?

您对此有何看法？

Is there a way to model that simply?

有没有一种方法可以简单地建模？

Varun Parmar: Without getting into specific numbers and stuff, I would say fundamentally Miro is a product-led growth company and product channels are one of the highest contributors for growth of users.

Varun Parmar：在不涉及具体数字和内容的情况下，我想说的是，从根本上说，Miro 是一家以产品为主导的成长型公司，产品渠道是用户增长的最大贡献者之一。

As the business has evolved to serve the needs of some of the largest corporations in the world, the enterprise segment and the enterprise persona when they're trying to provision Miro for tens of thousands of users who then go conduct hundreds of thousands of workshops on Miro that invite millions of users on the platform, is a key part of the flywheel that we are seeing.

随着业务不断发展以满足世界上一些最大的公司、企业部门和企业角色的需求，当他们试图为数以万计的用户提供 Miro，然后在 Miro 上举办数十万个研讨会，邀请数百万用户加入该平台时，这是我们所看到的飞轮的关键部分。

I would say product channels are probably very strong and increasingly enterprise is a key part of that acceleration.

我想说，产品渠道可能非常强大，而越来越多的企业是这种加速的关键部分。

Lenny: A great segue to our final question, which is the idea that you started a product growth, sounds like clearly it's a big part of growth today, but as every product growth company does eventually you have a large sales team, I imagine, what have you learned as a product leader working with sales, especially at a product growth company about how to make that relationship work and have a product work effectively with a sales org?

莱尼：很好地回答我们的最后一个问题，即您开始产品增长的想法，听起来显然这是当今增长的重要组成部分，但随着每个产品增长公司最终都会拥有一支庞大的销售团队，我想，作为与销售合作的产品领导者，特别是在产品增长公司，您学到了什么关于如何使这种关系发挥作用并使产品与销售组织有效合作？

Varun Parmar: There are a few learnings and I would say maybe this is one area where we are working on how we could be doing better in terms of bringing ourselves closer to our high-touch and bringing high-touch closer to self-serve, in terms of how we operate overall.

Varun Parmar：有一些经验教训，我想说也许这是我们正在努力的一个领域，我们正在研究如何在整体运营方式方面做得更好，使我们更接近我们的高接触度，并使高接触度更接近自助服务。

It's a lot of hard work, I would say first of all, basically, to bring both of these organizations together and you have to be very deliberate around the points of intersection and you have to make sure that these organizations don't consider themselves as competition.

首先，我想说，基本上，将这两个组织聚集在一起是一项艰巨的工作，您必须在交叉点上非常慎重，并且必须确保这些组织不会将自己视为竞争对手。

It's one product, one company, just two channels of how we are serving our customers.

这是一种产品，一家公司，只是我们服务客户的两种渠道。

There's some things that we've done which is have the product marketing team that basically works across both of these functions and make sure that they are bridging what we are hearing from the sales organization in terms of what directly customers need on the enterprise side, and then what do we need on the self-serve side.

我们已经做了一些事情，那就是让产品营销团队基本上跨这两个职能部门工作，并确保他们能够将我们从销售组织那里听到的信息与客户在企业方面的直接需求以及我们在自助服务方面的需求联系起来。

Varun Parmar: There's a full process in terms of how the handoff happens across the maturity of the account.

Varun Parmar：在账户到期期间的交接是如何发生的，有一个完整的过程。

It can start as a self-serve, it drives adoption, and once there's adoption, there's a hand raiser that happens and then there's a sales rep that gets engaged and you go through the qualification process and then you have an opportunity to expand the account.

它可以从自助服务开始，它可以推动采用，一旦采用，就会有一个举手活动，然后有一个销售代表参与进来，你完成资格认证过程，然后你就有机会扩大帐户。

We've over the years sort of architected and built the entire funnel and what the process is, and that's also sort of a key part of how all of this operates.

多年来，我们已经设计和构建了整个渠道和流程，这也是所有这些运作方式的关键部分。

But like I said, I think there are a few areas where we could further streamline how we operate and think of it as one single unit.

但正如我所说，我认为在一些领域我们可以进一步简化我们的运作方式并将其视为一个整体。

Lenny: I imagine that is true for every company out there.

莱尼：我想对于每家公司来说都是如此。

Lenny: One maybe final question before we get to our very exciting lightning round.

莱尼：在我们进入非常激动人心的闪电回合之前，可能还有最后一个问题。

What are some features that people could look forward to that are coming with Miro?

Miro 带来了哪些值得人们期待的功能？

Varun Parmar: We recently, about a month ago, announced Miro AI, the backdrop of all the amazing work that's happening around generative AI and large language models and stuff.

Varun Parmar：我们最近，大约一个月前，宣布了 Miro AI，这是围绕生成人工智能和大型语言模型等所有令人惊叹的工作的背景。

I think it was really, really exciting to see all of the community enthusiasm around the use cases that we launch.

我认为看到社区对我们推出的用例表现出如此热情，真的非常非常令人兴奋。

So we're going to be taking it across the finish line and doing a general availability in the coming weeks and months.

因此，我们将在未来几周和几个月内完成它并全面上市。

I think that's one big thing and we'll be adding more capabilities there.

我认为这是一件大事，我们将在那里添加更多功能。

Just today we actually announced a bunch of really deep enhancements and updates around how Miro can be used for team rituals and agile practices.

就在今天，我们实际上宣布了一系列关于如何将 Miro 用于团队仪式和敏捷实践的真正深入的增强和更新。

Now you can actually do retrospectives in Miro where you can have a private mode where while Lenny's typing his feedback during retrospective, nobody else can see it and then one click you can reveal it.

现在，您实际上可以在 Miro 中进行回顾，您可以使用私人模式，当 Lenny 在回顾期间输入反馈时，其他人都看不到它，然后只需单击一下即可显示它。

I just saw some of the results of the feedback and it was rated as the number one feature people saw.

我刚刚看到了一些反馈结果，它被评为人们看到的第一大功能。

Varun Parmar: There's also some deeper integrations in terms of bringing an entire program board from Jira to start to do dependency mapping inside of Miro in a fun and collaborative way, to use this dependency mapping along with program board to start to do program increment planning, which is essentially scrum of scrums or big room planning that's happening.

Varun Parmar：还有一些更深入的集成，从 Jira 引入整个程序板，开始以一种有趣和协作的方式在 Miro 内部进行依赖关系映射，使用此依赖关系映射和程序板开始进行程序增量规划，这本质上是 scrum of scrums 或正在发生的大房间规划。

There's some really amazing capabilities that we've added there, which is on the backdrop of some of the updates we've made in terms of estimation of sprint story points and so on and so forth.

我们在那里添加了一些非常令人惊叹的功能，这是在我们在冲刺故事点估计等方面所做的一些更新的背景下进行的。

Now there's a whole plethora of capabilities and apps that are available as part of the platform that allow you to have your entire team conduct your team rituals in Miro and you can automate certain things, you can streamline things, you can do certain things in async and then do the rest in synchronous ways, so I think that's been a big update as well.

现在，平台提供了大量的功能和应用程序，允许您让整个团队在 Miro 中进行团队仪式，您可以自动化某些事情，可以简化事情，可以异步执行某些操作，然后以同步方式执行其余操作，所以我认为这也是一个重大更新。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

With that, we've reached our very exciting lightning round.

至此，我们进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。

I've got six questions for you.

我有六个问题要问你。

Are you ready?

你准备好了吗？

Lenny: All right, let's do it.

莱尼：好吧，我们开始吧。

What are two or three books that you have recommended most to other people?

您向其他人推荐最多的两三本书是什么？

Varun Parmar: One is, I love this, When Breath Becomes Air by Paul Kalanithi.

Varun Parmar：其中之一是，我喜欢 Paul Kalanithi 的《当呼吸变成空气》。

It's one of those really emotional books that at the end of it, you might have tears in your eyes, but really, really amazing.

这是一本非常感人的书，读完后你可能会热泪盈眶，但真的非常非常神奇。

We talked about Frank Slootman's Amp It Up, and then Satya Nadella's Hit Refresh.

我们讨论了 Frank Slootman 的 Amp It Up，然后是 Satya Nadella 的 Hit Refresh。

I think philosophically some of the things that we talked about today are inspirations that I found in some of these books.

我认为从哲学上讲，我们今天讨论的一些事情是我在其中一些书中找到的灵感。

Lenny: What's a recent favorite movie or TV show?

莱尼：最近最喜欢的电影或电视节目是什么？

Varun Parmar: Ted Lasso.

瓦伦·帕尔玛：特德·拉索。

I don't know if it's a recent one or not, but something-

我不知道这是不是最近的，但有一点——

Varun Parmar: Yeah, I've enjoyed a lot.

Varun Parmar：是的，我很享受。

I think it's a very positive and uplifting message.

我认为这是一个非常积极和令人振奋的信息。

I think the performance is huge.

我认为性能是巨大的。

It's humorous, the characters are well-developed, so I think overall it's a treat, at least for, me to watch.

它很幽默，角色发展得很好，所以我认为总的来说这是一种享受，至少对我来说是这样。

Lenny: What's a favorite interview question you like to ask?

莱尼：你最喜欢问的面试问题是什么？

Varun Parmar: I actually ask a math problem.

Varun Parmar：我实际上问了一个数学问题。

For those of you who interviewed with me, I have this math problem, which is based on how Adobe created its first Creative Suite bundle.

对于那些接受我面试的人来说，我有这个数学问题，它基于 Adob​​e 如何创建其第一个 Creative Suite 捆绑包。

I was actually part of the team that came up with the pricing and packaging for the first Creative Suite post-acquisition of Macromedia.

实际上，我是为 Macromedia 收购后的第一个 Creative Suite 制定定价和包装的团队的一员。

It's a math problem that allows you very quickly to figure out people in terms of their problem-solving skills.

这是一个数学问题，可以让你很快地了解人们解决问题的能力。

Usually I give that problem to people.

通常我会把这个问题交给人们。

I've given it to, I don't know, 700, 800 people, so I now have a very, very well established standard distribution of how long it takes for people, where do they get stuck and where they've gotten stuck, for those people I've hired, what evidence do I have in terms of using that as a framework in terms of them being able to solve things?

我已经把它给了，我不知道，700、800人，所以我现在有一个非常非常完善的标准分布，关于人们需要多长时间，他们在哪里陷入困境以及他们在哪里陷入困境，对于我雇用的那些人，我有什么证据可以使用它作为他们能够解决问题的框架？

So that's my favorite question.

这是我最喜欢的问题。

Lenny: So you're saying you've mapped back people that have done a certain way on the problem with their success and you've kind of found that it's a good signal of their performance?

莱尼：所以你是说你已经将那些以某种方式解决问题的人与他们的成功进行了对比，并且你发现这是他们表现的一个很好的信号？

Varun Parmar: Yes.

瓦伦·帕尔玛：是的。

Not directly, but yes, correlation and stuff.

不是直接的，但是是的，相关性之类的。

Lenny: That's amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

That's one of the biggest problems with interviewing.

这是面试中最大的问题之一。

You think you're asking all these amazing questions and it's such a good signal, you have no idea.

你认为你在问所有这些令人惊奇的问题，这是一个很好的信号，但你不知道。

No one goes back and is like, "Oh, this person sucked.

没有人回过头来会说：“哦，这个人很糟糕。

This person didn't...

这个人没有...

" That's really cool to get that much data on that one question.

“就这一问题获得这么多数据真是太酷了。

Two more questions for you.

还有两个问题要问你。

What's something relatively minor that you've changed in how you do product development that has had a tremendous impact on your team's ability to execute?

您在产品开发方式上所做的哪些相对较小的改变却对团队的执行能力产生了巨大影响？

Varun Parmar: We talked about some of that, sort of removing the roadblocks.

Varun Parmar：我们讨论了其中的一些内容，有点是消除障碍。

I think having this motto of great customer value faster with high quality, just the simplicity of that and it's actually part of our evaluation rubric, it's part of how we measure ourselves and stuff.

我认为拥有这样的座右铭，即以高质量更快地实现巨大的客户价值，这就是简单性，它实际上是我们评估标准的一部分，是我们衡量自己和事物的方式的一部分。

So I think just coming up with these simple concepts that you can rally the organization around, and I think it's still a work in progress, but something that I believe is leading to positive outcomes.

因此，我认为只需提出这些简单的概念，您就可以将组织团结起来，我认为这仍然是一项正在进行的工作，但我相信这会带来积极的成果。

Lenny: Final question.

莱尼：最后一个问题。

What's your favorite Miro template?

您最喜欢的 Miro 模板是什么？

Varun Parmar: It's the FIFA World Cup actually.

瓦伦·帕尔玛：这实际上是国际足联世界杯。

I am so fascinated with what was done.

我对所做的事情非常着迷。

Yeah, it's the latest one, but I think there's a bunch of them in terms of retros as well, and I think...

是的，这是最新的，但我认为在复古方面也有很多，而且我认为......

like your template as well.

也喜欢你的模板。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

We will link to all of those.

我们将链接到所有这些。

Varun, this was amazing.

瓦伦，这太棒了。

Everything I expected and more, your team is as interesting and unique as I thought, and I am excited for people to learn from you and we're going to share a lot of links alongside this episode in the show notes.

一切都是我所期望的，甚至更多，你们的团队和我想象的一样有趣和独特，我很高兴人们能向你们学习，我们将在节目笔记中分享这一集的很多链接。

Two final questions, where can folks find you online if they want to reach out and learn more, and how can listeners be useful to you?

最后两个问题，如果人们想联系并了解更多信息，可以在哪里找到您？听众如何对您有用？

Varun Parmar: Thank you, Lenny.

瓦伦·帕尔玛：谢谢你，莱尼。

It was a lot of fun.

这很有趣。

I enjoyed our interaction.

我很享受我们的互动。

You folks can find me online on LinkedIn.

你们可以在 LinkedIn 上找到我。

I think that's probably the best way to connect with me.

我认为这可能是与我联系的最佳方式。

I think in terms of one or two things I can ask everyone is that, one is if you are an existing Miro user and you use the product for something interesting, I highly encourage you to contribute it as a template as part of Miroverse.

我认为就一两件事而言，我可以问大家的是，一是如果您是现有的 Miro 用户并且您使用该产品来做一些有趣的事情，我强烈鼓励您将其作为模板贡献为 Miroverse 的一部分。

There's a lot of folks who use that and we would love for you to contribute there.

有很多人使用它，我们希望您能在那里做出贡献。

The second thing is, I know a lot of product development teams, PMs and designers are big fans of you, Lenny, so those are also the users that use Miro.

第二件事是，我知道很多产品开发团队、PM 和设计师都是你的忠实粉丝，Lenny，所以他们也是使用 Miro 的用户。

If there's anything we could do to make the product better, if there's things that you feel like we can expand the platform into, we would love to hear from you and just reach out to me directly over LinkedIn, direct message or connect with me there and yeah, and let us know.

如果我们可以做些什么来让产品变得更好，如果您觉得我们可以将平台扩展到哪些方面，我们很乐意听取您的意见，只需通过 LinkedIn 直接与我联系，直接发消息或在那里与我联系，然后让我们知道。

We're here to serve.

我们来这里是为了服务。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

Varun, thank you again for being here.

瓦伦，再次感谢您来到这里。

Lenny: Bye everyone.

莱尼：大家再见。

Thank you so much for listening.

非常感谢您的聆听。

If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcast, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.

如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcast、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review, as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.

您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。