A founder’s guide to crisis management | Uri Levine (Waze co-founder, serial entrepreneur)

Lenny Rachitsky: Let's talk about crisis.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我们来谈谈危机吧。

I think it might be helpful to do a quick taxonomy of the types of crisis founders face.

我认为对创始人面临的危机类型进行快速分类可能会有所帮助。

Uri Levine: So two, abstractly, two types of crisis.

尤里·莱文：抽象地说，有两种危机。

One is I would call that a cash crisis.

一是我称之为现金危机。

All of a sudden, your cash program or plan is being jeopardized, losing a customer, disappearing investor.

突然间，您的现金计划或计划受到威胁，失去客户，消失投资者。

And the other one is lose of product market fit.

另一个是产品市场契合度的丧失。

When product market fit disappear, you actually need to go back to square one.

当产品市场契合度消失时，你实际上需要回到第一个方向。

Then you basically say everything that I know so far is irrelevant anymore.

然后你基本上说我到目前为止所知道的一切都不再重要了。

Lenny Rachitsky: You also talk along these lines of never give up in a crisis and throughout your journey.

Lenny Rachitsky：您还谈到了在危机中和整个旅程中永不放弃的道理。

Uri Levine: Always keep on looking for ways to make it work.

Uri Levine：始终不断寻找使其发挥作用的方法。

Never give up is the most important behavior of successful CEOs of startup.

永不放弃是成功创业公司CEO最重要的行为。

The second one, by the way, is making decisions with conviction.

顺便说一句，第二个是坚定地做出决定。

If you don't make them with conviction, then the team is not going to follow.

如果你没有坚定的信念，那么团队就不会遵循。

If the team is not going to follow, then you are not going to be successful.

如果团队不跟随，那么你就不会成功。

Lenny Rachitsky: The core part of your advice on crisis, it's always the founders fault if things don't work out.

Lenny Rachitsky：你关于危机的建议的核心部分是，如果事情不顺利，那总是创始人的错。

Uri Levine: At the end of the day, you cannot rely on someone else, you have only one company, you need to make sure that this company is successful.

Uri Levine：归根结底，你不能依赖别人，你只有一家公司，你需要确保这家公司成功。

When you assume responsibility, you're basically saying, "You know what, I control my own destiny."

当你承担责任时，你基本上是在说：“你知道吗，我掌控自己的命运。”

Lenny Rachitsky: Any advice for how to avoid falling into a crisis as a founder?

Lenny Rachitsky：作为创始人如何避免陷入危机，有什么建议吗？

Uri Levine: Number one answer is no, don't worry, you will face crisis.

Uri Levine：第一个答案是否定的，别担心，你会面临危机。

Lenny Rachitsky: Today, my guest is Uri Levine.

Lenny Rachitsky：今天，我的客人是 Uri Levine。

Uri is the co-founder of Waze, along with nine other companies.

Uri 是 Waze 以及其他九家公司的联合创始人。

He's sold two companies for over a billion dollars, he's been on 20 different startup boards, has been an advisor to over 50 different startups.

他以超过 10 亿美元的价格出售了两家公司，曾在 20 个不同的初创公司董事会任职，并担任过 50 多家不同初创公司的顾问。

And even more impressively, this is his second time on the podcast.

更令人印象深刻的是，这是他第二次参加播客。

Lenny Rachitsky: In our first conversation, we walked through the biggest lessons that he's learned over the course of working with all of these different startups that he chronicled in his beloved book, Fall in Love with the Problem, Not the Solution.

Lenny Rachitsky：在我们的第一次谈话中，我们回顾了他在与所有这些不同的初创公司合作的过程中学到的最重要的经验教训，他在他心爱的书《爱上问题，而不是解决方案》中记录了这些经验教训。

In this conversation, we go deep on one very specific topic, crisis.

在这次对话中，我们深入讨论一个非常具体的话题：危机。

As Uri shares in his book, building a startup is a journey from one crisis to the next.

正如尤里在他的书中所分享的那样，创建一家初创公司是从一场危机到下一场危机的旅程。

And my goal with this conversation is to give you tools to handle the next crisis and the next crisis and the next crisis that you face as a founder.

我这次谈话的目标是为您提供工具来应对下一场危机以及您作为创始人面临的下一场危机。

This topic is so important that Uri decided to update and re-release his book with a whole new chapter dedicated to managing crisis.

这个主题非常重要，以至于尤里决定更新并重新发布他的书，用一个全新的章节专门讨论危机管理。

And this new edition is actually going to launch right around the time this episode launches.

这个新版本实际上将在本集推出时推出。

Lenny Rachitsky: If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube, it's the best way to avoid missing future episodes and it helps the podcast tremendously.

Lenny Rachitsky：如果您喜欢这个播客，请不要忘记在您最喜欢的播客应用程序或 YouTube 中订阅并关注它，这是避免错过未来剧集的最佳方式，并且对播客有很大帮助。

With that, I bring you Uri Levine.

接下来，我为您带来尤里·莱文。

Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by WorkOS.

Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 WorkOS 为您带来。

If you're building a SaaS app, at some point your customers will start asking for enterprise features like SAML authentication and SCIM provisioning.

如果您正在构建 SaaS 应用程序，那么您的客户有时会开始要求提供 SAML 身份验证和 SCIM 配置等企业功能。

That's where WorkOS comes in, making it fast and painless to add enterprise features to your app.

这就是 WorkOS 的用武之地，它可以快速、轻松地将企业功能添加到您的应用程序中。

Their APIs are easy to understand so that you can ship quickly and get back to building other features.

他们的 API 易于理解，因此您可以快速交付并继续构建其他功能。

Lenny Rachitsky: Today, hundreds of companies are already powered by WorkOS, including ones you probably know like Vercel, Webflow and Loom.

Lenny Rachitsky：如今，数百家公司已经由 WorkOS 提供支持，其中包括您可能知道的 Vercel、Webflow 和 Loom 等公司。

WorkOS also recently acquired Warrant, the fine-grained authorization service.

WorkOS 最近还收购了细粒度授权服务 Warrant。

Warrant's product is based on a groundbreaking authorization system called Zanzibar, which was originally designed for Google to power Google Docs and YouTube.

Warrant 的产品基于名为 Zanzibar 的突破性授权系统，该系统最初是为 Google 设计的，旨在为 Google Docs 和 YouTube 提供支持。

This enables fast authorization checks at enormous scale while maintaining a flexible model that can be adapted to even the most complex use cases.

这可以实现大规模的快速授权检查，同时保持灵活的模型，甚至可以适应最复杂的用例。

Lenny Rachitsky: If you're currently looking to build role-based access control or other enterprise features like single sign-on, SCIM or user management, you should consider WorkOS.

Lenny Rachitsky：如果您当前正在寻求构建基于角色的访问控制或其他企业功能（例如单点登录、SCIM 或用户管理），您应该考虑 WorkOS。

It's a drop-in replacement for Auth0 and supports up to one million monthly active users for free.

它是 Auth0 的直接替代品，免费支持多达 100 万月活跃用户。

Check it out at workos.com to learn more.

请访问 workos.com 以了解更多信息。

That's workos.com.

那是workos.com。

Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by Rippling, a single platform to build and scale your startup on.

Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 Rippling 为您带来，Rippling 是一个用于构建和扩展您的初创公司的单一平台。

Rippling handles all the can't get it wrong admin work of payroll and benefits, giving you back hours every week.

Rippling 处理所有不容出错的工资和福利管理工作，每周为您节省时间。

But it does a lot more than that.

但它的作用远不止于此。

Rippling is a game changer for the entire company with tools for HR, IT and spend all built from the ground up and designed to work together seamlessly.

Rippling 是整个公司的游戏规则改变者，它提供适用于 HR、IT 和支出的工具，所有这些工具都是从头开始构建的，旨在无缝协作。

Lenny Rachitsky: Just hired someone, Rippling makes onboarding easy whether your new hire is sitting next to you or halfway across the world.

Lenny Rachitsky：刚刚雇用了一个人，无论您的新员工是坐在您旁边还是在地球的另一边，Rippling 都可以让您轻松入职。

In just a few clicks, Rippling automatically generates an offer letter, ships a laptop with the necessary apps and permissions and even delivers a corporate card.

只需点击几下，Rippling 就会自动生成录取通知书，运送带有必要应用程序和权限的笔记本电脑，甚至还提供公司卡。

An employee needs to update their benefits contribution, when they do it in Rippling, the change automatically syncs to payroll.

员工需要更新他们的福利缴款，当他们在 Rippling 中执行此操作时，更改会自动同步到工资单。

CTO forgot her laptop in an Uber, lock it remotely with Rippling.

CTO 将她的笔记本电脑忘在 Uber 车里，使用 Rippling 远程锁定它。

Lenny Rachitsky: Many startups I've invested in like Sprig, Ellamy and ClassDojo use Rippling because it's a force multiplier for lean teams, helping them eliminate major headaches and operate their business more efficiently.

Lenny Rachitsky：我投资的许多初创公司（例如 Sprig、Ellamy 和 ClassDojo）都使用 Rippling，因为它对精益团队来说是一个力量倍增器，可以帮助他们消除主要难题并更有效地运营业务。

For a limited time, Rippling is giving Lenny's listeners three months off.

在有限的时间内，Rippling 为 Lenny 的听众提供三个月的休息时间。

To redeem, visit rippling.com/lenny.

如需兑换，请访问 ripplling.com/lenny。

That's rippling.com/lenny.

那是 ripple.com/lenny。

Lenny Rachitsky: Uri, thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast.

Lenny Rachitsky：Uri，非常感谢您来到这里，欢迎来到播客。

Uri Levine: Thank you.

尤里·莱文：谢谢。

I'm really happy to be here.

我真的很高兴来到这里。

Lenny Rachitsky: I should have said welcome back to the podcast, this is your second time here, which is a pretty rare feat.

Lenny Rachitsky：我应该说欢迎回到播客，这是你第二次来这里，这是一个非常罕见的壮举。

And the reason that you're back is, the first time we chatted in depth about your amazing book.

你回来的原因是，我们第一次深入讨论你的精彩书。

I have it right here, Fall in Love with the Problem, Not the Solution.

我就在这里，爱上问题，而不是解决方案。

And you decided to re-release the book recently with a new chapter about something that every single founder is going to go through.

您最近决定重新发行这本书，其中新的一章讲述了每个创始人都会经历的事情。

You actually have this quote I'll read that I think is a good summary of why this is so important.

实际上，我会读到这句话，我认为这是对为什么这如此重要的一个很好的总结。

"That building a startup is a journey from one crisis to the next." Let me just start with this question of why did you decide to add this chapter, why is it so important to update your book?

“建立一家初创公司是从一场危机到下一场危机的旅程。”让我从这个问题开始：为什么你决定添加这一章，为什么更新你的书如此重要？

Uri Levine: End of the day, recent years have demonstrated major significant crisises throughout the world, from Covid to interest rate, to inflation, to wars.

乌里·莱文：总而言之，近年来世界各地发生了重大危机，从新冠疫情到利率、通货膨胀、战争。

And then I realized that wait a minute, this is something that I haven't spoke about during my first book and it's time to write a new edition to that or a new chapter that will be added into the new release.

然后我意识到，等一下，这是我在第一本书中没有谈到的事情，是时候为此编写一个新版本或将添加到新版本中的新章节了。

And so this is about crisis.

所以这是关于危机的。

And in addition, my publisher told me that, "Oh, you should have a paperback, it's going to sell more and more people are going to read it because it's easier to read." So I do have the new edition already.

此外，我的出版商告诉我，“哦，你应该买一本平装本，它会卖得越来越多，因为它更容易阅读。”所以我已经有了新版本。

Uri Levine: It will be published in about a month and it does include a new chapter.

Uri Levine：大约一个月后就会出版，其中确实包含一个新章节。

And it's a paperback.

这是一本平装本。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love that you're solving the jobs to be done, make it easier to read, we'll make it paperback.

Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢你正在解决需要完成的工作，使其更易于阅读，我们将把它做成平装本。

I also, as you described it, it made me realize the reason your book is so great is it's basically a step-by-step guide of all the things you need to know about building a successful company.

正如您所描述的那样，它让我意识到您的书之所以如此出色，是因为它基本上是关于建立一家成功公司所需了解的所有事情的分步指南。

And what it feels like is you just realize, oh, I forgot this step that every founder goes through, which is crisis.

感觉就像你刚刚意识到，哦，我忘记了每个创始人都会经历的这一步，这就是危机。

Lenny Rachitsky: Multiple crisis, we'll get into that.

Lenny Rachitsky：多重危机，我们会解决这个问题。

Also, I love that you can actually update a book.

另外，我喜欢你实际上可以更新一本书。

Usually people are like, "Oh, books, done." You move on.

通常人们会说，“哦，书，完成了。”你继续前进。

I love that you have the opportunity actually to update a book.

我很高兴你有机会真正更新一本书。

That's inspiring.

这很鼓舞人心。

Uri Levine: I'm already thinking of the next one.

Uri Levine：我已经在考虑下一个了。

Lenny Rachitsky: The next book or the next update to the book?

Lenny Rachitsky：下一本书还是书的下一次更新？

Uri Levine: Not sure yet, not sure.

尤里·莱文：还不确定，不确定。

Look, at the end of the day, there is a reason for me to write the book.

瞧，归根结底，我写这本书是有原因的。

I wrote the book in order to make a bigger impact.

我写这本书是为了产生更大的影响。

I'm an entrepreneur and everyone knows that, so I built Waze and Moovit and dozens of other startups, but I'm also a teacher.

我是一名企业家，每个人都知道这一点，所以我创立了 Waze 和 Moovit 以及数十家其他初创公司，但我也是一名教师。

So I feel equally rewarded when I build something myself or I guide someone to build it.

因此，当我自己构建一些东西或指导别人构建它时，我感到同样的回报。

And the book is fulfilling my destiny as a teacher, sharing my know-how with entrepreneurs, with business people, with pretty much everyone to help them to become more successful.

这本书实现了我作为一名教师的使命，与企业家、商界人士、几乎每个人分享我的专业知识，帮助他们变得更加成功。

Uri Levine: So the realization that what I really want is people to take out of the book is something that will increase their likelihood of being successful.

尤里·莱文（Uri Levine）：因此，我真正希望人们从书中学到的东西会增加他们成功的可能性。

And the next book is going to be pretty much the same, with the same philosophy of wait a minute, if I can make a bigger impact, I would like to make a bigger impact.

下一本书将几乎相同，有着相同的理念：等一下，如果我能产生更大的影响，我想产生更大的影响。

Lenny Rachitsky: It's a beautiful mission.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个美好的使命。

I think we're going to do that.

我想我们会这么做的。

Let's talk about crisis.

我们来谈谈危机吧。

Maybe to make this very real and visceral for people to get a sense of, you hear the word crisis, you're like, oh yeah, sure.

也许为了让人们感受到这一点非常真实和发自内心，当你听到危机这个词时，你会想，哦，是的，当然。

Can you maybe share a story of a crisis that you experienced that might be illustrative of the types of crisis that founders face across the many companies you've started and advised, what comes to mind?

您能否分享一个您经历过的危机故事，这可能可以说明您创办和建议的许多公司的创始人所面临的危机类型，您会想到什么？

Uri Levine: Covid was an excellent example.

尤里·莱文：新冠疫情就是一个很好的例子。

And one of my startups back then, called Order.chat, and actually it was the first AI chat back in 2020.

当时我的一家初创公司名为 Order.chat，实际上这是 2020 年的第一个人工智能聊天。

And that was meant to help people to make reservations to restaurants.

这是为了帮助人们预订餐馆。

As simple as, "Oh, I would like to make a reservations for six people for tomorrow night at XYZ restaurant." And that chat was actually very, very successful in Israel.

就像这样简单：“哦，我想在 XYZ 餐厅预订明晚六人的座位。”那次谈话实际上在以色列非常非常成功。

And the reason is that we actually built an engine that had facing the user with a chat but also facing the restaurant with a chat.

原因是我们实际上构建了一个既面向用户聊天又面向餐厅聊天的引擎。

So we did not require any integration, we could go online anywhere and actually cover all the restaurants in no time.

所以我们不需要任何集成，我们可以在任何地方上网并实际上立即覆盖所有餐厅。

And that turned out to be pretty successful and then Covid hit.

事实证明，这非常成功，然后新冠疫情袭来。

And guess what?

你猜怎么着？

All the restaurants were shut down for hosting guests and there were no more reservations for restaurants.

所有餐厅都停止接待客人，也不再有餐厅预订。

Uri Levine: Now we were really good at that, but we did not have enough funding to actually pivot into something completely different.

Uri Levine：现在我们真的很擅长这一点，但我们没有足够的资金来真正转向完全不同的东西。

And the result is that we had to shut it down.

结果是我们不得不关闭它。

And still people still ask me what happened to that?

但仍然有人问我那是怎么回事？

What happened to that was Covid.

发生的事情就是Covid。

Lenny Rachitsky: I feel like Covid happened to a lot of companies.

Lenny Rachitsky：我觉得很多公司都遭遇了新冠疫情。

And it feels like that's kind of an impetus to this chapter.

感觉这就是本章的推动力。

I think you even said that, it created so many crisis across so many companies you were involved with, helped you realize a lot of companies and founders are just not prepared.

我想你甚至说过，它在你参与的这么多公司中造成了如此多的危机，帮助你意识到很多公司和创始人还没有做好准备。

Uri Levine: So by and large I would say end of the day, we look at the global crisises and we say, "Oh, this is going to impact an industry." But as an entrepreneur, you don't care about the industry, you care about your own startup, that's it.

乌里·莱文（Uri Levine）：总的来说，我想说，最终，我们审视全球危机，我们说，“哦，这将影响一个行业。”但作为一名企业家，你不关心这个行业，你关心的是你自己的创业公司，仅此而已。

And if the rest of the world is suffering from the same problem, doesn't help you, not even a single bit.

如果世界其他地方也面临着同样的问题，那对你没有任何帮助，哪怕是一点点帮助也没有。

So your problem is your problem, that's it.

所以你的问题就是你的问题，仅此而已。

Uri Levine: And then you need to abstract that and basically realize, okay, wait a minute, I will define a crisis as something that you already had that is significant, disappears.

乌里·莱文：然后你需要抽象化这一点，并基本上意识到，好吧，等一下，我将危机定义为你已经拥有的重大事件消失了。

So let's say that you already have millions of dollars in revenues and all of a sudden your biggest customer decide not to continue and you lose half of your revenues.

假设您已经拥有数百万美元的收入，突然您最大的客户决定不再继续，您损失了一半的收入。

All of a sudden you basically say, "Wait a minute, I have to adapt, something significant happened."

突然之间，你基本上会说：“等一下，我必须适应，发生了一些重要的事情。”

Uri Levine: And that something significant is that your revenues disappear or maybe your funding disappeared or maybe ...

尤里·莱文：重要的是你的收入消失了，或者你的资金消失了，或者......

So in general, the first type of crisis will be around cash.

所以总的来说，第一类危机将围绕现金。

All of a sudden your cash is not the same as you expected, something happened, maybe funding, maybe revenues, maybe projection, maybe you lost a big customers, a cash crisis.

突然间你的现金与你预期的不一样，发生了一些事情，也许是资金，也许是收入，也许是预测，也许你失去了一个大客户，现金危机。

And then you need to adapt.

然后你需要适应。

Uri Levine: The second one, which is even more significant, is that you lost product market fit.

Uri Levine：第二个更重要的问题是你失去了产品市场契合度。

And that might happen, it might happen because of regulations, because of competition, because of something dramatic happened that there is no more value into your product.

这种情况可能会发生，可能是因为法规，因为竞争，因为发生了一些戏剧性的事情，你的产品不再具有任何价值。

And we are going back to basic, product market fit is very simple.

我们回到基础，产品市场契合度非常简单。

That means that you create value to your customers, this is what it is.

这意味着您为客户创造价值，就是这样。

And you never heard of a company that did not figure out product market fit.

你从来没有听说过一家公司没有弄清楚产品的市场契合度。

They simply died, that's it.

他们只是死了，仅此而已。

Uri Levine: And by the way, product market fit in general have only one metric, only one metric, retention.

Uri Levine：顺便说一句，产品市场契合度一般只有一个指标，只有一个指标，即保留率。

Look, it's really simple, if you create value, they will come back, that's it.

看，这真的很简单，如果你创造价值，他们就会回来，就是这样。

If they are not coming back, that means that you are not creating value.

如果他们没有回来，那就意味着你没有创造价值。

And so in your startup journey, this is going to be the first phase, and it's going to require a lot of iterations and it's a journey of failures.

所以在你的创业之旅中，这将是第一阶段，它需要大量的迭代，这是一个失败的旅程。

So we're going to try something and it doesn't work, we're going to try something else.

所以我们要尝试一些东西，但它不起作用，我们要尝试别的东西。

And we keep on trying until we find one thing that does work.

我们会不断尝试，直到找到一种可行的方法。

Uri Levine: But once you figure that out, you're ready to move to the next part of your journey.

Uri Levine：但是一旦你弄清楚了这一点，你就准备好进入旅程的下一部分了。

But what if it's all disappeared?

但如果一切都消失了怎么办？

What if all of a sudden someone changed their regulation?

如果有人突然改变规则怎么办？

Someone you rely on, a very unique data, that you were able to build and all of a sudden someone create a way to access this data for everyone.

您所依赖的人，您能够构建的非常独特的数据，突然有人创建了一种为每个人访问该数据的方法。

What if there is a competitor that makes you irrelevant?

如果有一个竞争对手让你变得无关紧要怎么办？

Uri Levine: I'm using iPhone, obviously a lot of people using iPhone and I'm using that for a long while.

Uri Levine：我正在使用 iPhone，显然很多人都在使用 iPhone，而且我已经使用它很长一段时间了。

iPhone is born in 2007.

iPhone诞生于2007年。

Before that we used to have different phones with keypads.

在此之前，我们曾经拥有不同的带键盘的电话。

And when iPhone was introduced, Microsoft basically say this will never work.

当 iPhone 推出时，微软基本上表示这永远行不通。

They were in a position of a market leader, they own Windows mobile operating system that was running on pretty much all the phones in the world.

他们处于市场领导者的地位，他们拥有 Windows 移动操作系统，该操作系统几乎运行在世界上所有的手机上。

All the smartphones in the world, from Nokia to Motorola, to Samsung, to pretty much everything.

世界上所有的智能手机，从诺基亚到摩托罗拉，到三星，几乎所有的东西。

And they look at it and say this will never work.

他们看着它并说这永远行不通。

They haven't realized how impactful it is.

他们还没有意识到它的影响力有多大。

So this is a competition coming out to the market with something that is completely different.

所以这是一场以完全不同的东西进入市场的竞争。

And not only disrupt the market but actually create crisis for pretty much everyone else.

不仅扰乱了市场，而且实际上给几乎所有人带来了危机。

Uri Levine: And the result is that today Microsoft is not a player in the mobile operating system and Nokia disappeared or pretty much disappeared and Motorola disappeared and pretty much everyone that was really significant in this industry, they were not adapted fast enough to the change.

Uri Levine：结果是，今天微软不再是移动操作系统的参与者，诺基亚消失了或几乎消失了，摩托罗拉也消失了，几乎所有在这个行业真正重要的人都没有足够快地适应这种变化。

And the change was that their product market fit disappeared.

变化是他们的产品市场契合度消失了。

Now it's not that their product all of a sudden become irrelevant, people simply wanted something else.

现在并不是他们的产品突然变得无关紧要，人们只是想要别的东西。

Uri Levine: So when product market fit disappeared, you actually need to go back to square one.

Uri Levine：因此，当产品市场契合度消失时，您实际上需要回到第一个方向。

And the faster that you realize and you basically say everything that I know so far, everything that I knew so far is irrelevant anymore.

你意识到得越快，基本上说出我迄今为止所知道的一切，我迄今为止所知道的一切就不再相关了。

Can I restart?

我可以重新启动吗？

Can I go back to square one and restart?

我可以回到第一方并重新开始吗？

Because if you cannot, you will die.

因为如果你做不到，你就会死。

You're following your own solution and you believe that this solution is going to be marketed better than what the market wants.

您正在遵循自己的解决方案，并且您相信该解决方案的营销效果会比市场想要的更好。

And what the market wants is different.

而市场想要的也不一样。

Uri Levine: It can be also a matter of regulation change.

Uri Levine：这也可能是监管变化的问题。

One of my startups called Fibo died because of change in regulation.

我的一家名为 Fibo 的初创公司因监管变化而倒闭。

So Fibo was doing tax returns, something that everyone hates, but we have to do that.

所以 Fibo 正在做纳税申报表，这是每个人都讨厌的事情，但我们必须这样做。

And when we started we basically say wait a minute, when I speak with people and ask them how is tax returns being done in your country, what I heard was pretty consistent, it's either complex or expensive or both, that's it.

当我们开始时，我们基本上会说等一下，当我与人们交谈并询问他们在你们国家如何进行纳税申报时，我听到的非常一致，它要么复杂，要么昂贵，或者两者兼而有之，就是这样。

And I said wait a minute, what if I can simplify that?

我说等一下，如果我能简化一下怎么办？

What if we can make it really, really simple?

如果我们能让它变得非常非常简单怎么办？

Uri Levine: And we define simplification by filing in less than five minutes.

Uri Levine：我们将简化定义为在五分钟内提交文件。

Whatever you do, if you can do that in less than five minutes, it's simple enough.

无论你做什么，如果你能在五分钟之内完成，那就足够简单了。

And we ended up with building a platform in Israel that people were able to file in less than three minutes.

我们最终在以色列建立了一个平台，人们可以在不到三分钟的时间内提交文件。

And that was actually pretty amazing.

这实际上是相当惊人的。

Now the result was that in about ...

现在的结果是，大约...

In Israel filing is not mandatory.

在以色列，备案不是强制性的。

So we actually enable people that were not filing up until now to file because it's simple.

所以我们实际上让那些到现在为止还没有提交申请的人能够提交申请，因为这很简单。

And we increased the size of the market by 25% over one year.

我们在一年内将市场规模扩大了 25%。

Uri Levine: Yep.

尤里·莱文：是的。

Because it was simple.

因为这很简单。

So you go into the platform, you realize that wait a minute, I actually entitled to get a return, so let me file.

所以你进入平台，你意识到等一下，我实际上有权获得回报，所以让我提交。

If I'm not entitled to get a return, then I'm not going to file because it's not mandatory.

如果我无权获得退货，那么我就不会提交，因为这不是强制性的。

And the result is that we increased the load of the taxation system.

结果就是增加了税收系统的负担。

And all of a sudden the Israeli tax authority didn't like us anymore and they basically shut us down.

突然之间，以色列税务机关不再喜欢我们了，他们基本上关闭了我们。

So changing the regulation and we lost product market fit overnight.

因此，改变法规后，我们的产品一夜之间就失去了市场契合度。

They basically say, "Oh, we are going to shut you down and that's tomorrow." And that's it.

他们基本上会说：“哦，我们要让你停业，那是明天的事情了。”就是这样。

Uri Levine: Now we did not have enough run rate to actually ...

Uri Levine：现在我们没有足够的运行率来实际......

because the company was about break even, so we did not have enough funding to go and try to find something else.

因为公司即将收支平衡，所以我们没有足够的资金去尝试寻找其他东西。

And we tried to fight the regulator, but fighting regulator requires a long period of time and a lot of funding and we did not have that.

我们试图与监管者作斗争，但与监管者作斗争需要很长的时间和大量的资金，而我们没有这些。

Uri Levine: So regulation might be a reason why you lose product market fit.

Uri Levine：所以监管可能是你失去产品市场契合度的一个原因。

And you need to go back to square one.

你需要回到第一个方块。

And what we decided is that, okay, what I decided on a personal level is that I'm not going deal with the regulation anymore.

我们的决定是，好吧，我个人的决定是我不再处理监管问题。

I don't want to rely on a regulator to allow me or not allow me to do what I want to do.

我不想依靠监管机构来允许或不允许我做我想做的事。

Uri Levine: By the way, with Waze, in the early days we thought that the business model is going to be selling data to authorities, to municipalities, to maybe public transportation systems and so forth.

Uri Levine：顺便说一句，对于 Waze，早期我们认为其商业模式是将数据出售给当局、市政当局、公共交通系统等。

And we basically say wait a minute, we have the best traffic information in the world, I can go to a municipality and tell them how long does it take to make a left turn in each and every traffic light in the city every day of the week, every hour of the day.

我们基本上会说，等一下，我们拥有世界上最好的交通信息，我可以去一个市政府，告诉他们在城市的每个红绿灯处左转需要多长时间，一周中的每一天，一天中的每个小时。

And therefore they can recalibrate the traffic control system and enable better utilization of the entire road system.

因此，他们可以重新校准交通控制系统并更好地利用整个道路系统。

And it turns out that this is really, really, really slow business development process.

事实证明，这是一个非常非常缓慢的业务发展过程。

They didn't really care.

他们并不真正关心。

And that was frustrating.

这很令人沮丧。

Even if you offer that for free they still don't care.

即使你免费提供，他们仍然不在乎。

And the result is that we changed the business model and we ended up with advertisement.

结果是我们改变了商业模式，最终出现了广告。

But the reality is that I don't like to work with regulators, that is all.

但现实是我不喜欢与监管机构合作，仅此而已。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

There's so much here I want to dig into.

这里有太多我想深入挖掘的东西。

One is this example, this story about losing product market fit, it reminds me of, I had Drew Houston on the podcast, the founder of Dropbox, and he described a moment where when Apple launched Apple Photos or iCloud, I think it was iCloud, he's like, "It's as if there's this mushroom cloud exploding far in the distance that you don't hear for a long time and we didn't necessarily see exactly how much this will have impacted our business." And I think that's what happens a lot of cases.

一个是这个例子，这个关于失去产品市场契合度的故事，它让我想起，我在播客中邀请了 Dropbox 的创始人 Drew Houston，他描述了苹果推出 Apple Photos 或 iCloud 时的一个时刻，我认为是 iCloud，他说，“就好像蘑菇云在远处爆炸，你很长时间都听不到，我们不一定知道这会对我们的业务产生多大影响。”我认为这就是很多案例中发生的情况。

You see something happen and you're like, "No, this is no problem, we're going to win anyway." Like Blackberry I think did the same thing with iPhone.

当你看到一些事情发生时，你会想，“不，这没问题，无论如何我们都会赢。”就像黑莓一样，我认为 iPhone 也做了同样的事情。

Uri Levine: We had the same thing with Waze, because when we started Waze was free and it was the only one that was offering turn-by-turn navigation free.

Uri Levine：我们对 Waze 也有同样的想法，因为当我们开始使用 Waze 时，它​​是免费的，而且它是唯一一个免费提供路线导航的服务。

And the reason is that we created our own maps.

原因是我们创建了自己的地图。

And then one day in 2010, Google announced their free turn-by-turn navigation.

2010 年的一天，谷歌宣布推出免费路线导航。

Turns out that they were working for the last two years in building maps of the US.

事实证明，他们在过去两年里一直在致力于绘制美国地图。

And they enabled that on Google Maps, turn-by-turn navigation with audio guidance to turn right, turn left and so forth.

他们在谷歌地图上启用了路线规划导航，并带有音频指导，可以右转、左转等。

Uri Levine: And two companies were actually shocked, the entire industry, but two companies were impacted.

尤里·莱文（Uri Levine）：实际上有两家公司整个行业都感到震惊，但有两家公司受到了影响。

The first one is actually TomTom.

第一个实际上是TomTom。

TomTom was the provider of the maps for Google to do navigation.

TomTom 是 Google 导航地图的提供商。

And they basically say, "No, we have our own maps, we are going to terminate the contract." And TomTom said, "Wait a minute, you are paying us $18 million a year and we have five years contract." And Google say, "Yeah, we will keep on paying you that amount of money that we are committed, but we are not going to use your product anymore."

他们基本上会说，“不，我们有自己的地图，我们将终止合同。” TomTom 说：“等一下，你每年支付 1800 万美元，我们有五年的合同。”谷歌说：“是的，我们将继续向您支付我们承诺的金额，但我们不会再使用您的产品。”

Uri Levine: And that one was Waze because basically everyone in the industry told us that we are doomed.

Uri Levine：那个就是 Waze，因为基本上业内的每个人都告诉我们，我们注定要失败。

Our own investors told us that, "Look, if we can sell the company for $20 or $30 million today, do it because you are not going to be successful."

我们自己的投资者告诉我们，“看，如果我们今天能以 20 或 3000 万美元的价格出售公司，那就这么做，因为你不会成功。”

Uri Levine: Now obviously we turned the corner and turned out to be very successful.

Uri Levine：现在显然我们已经渡过难关，并且非常成功。

And to that level that eventually Google acquired us.

到了那个程度，谷歌最终收购了我们。

And the reason is that the use case was different.

原因是用例不同。

Waze was focusing on the daily commuters.

位智专注于日常通勤者。

So we wanted people to use our application twice a day, when you go to the office and when you come back home.

因此，我们希望人们每天使用我们的应用程序两次，一次是去办公室，一次是回家。

And Google Maps is something that you are being used not that frequent, you are in general I would say if I ask a hundred people how often they use Waze, they will tell me every day.

谷歌地图是你使用得不那么频繁的东西，一般来说，我会说，如果我问一百个人他们使用位智的频率，他们每天都会告诉我。

If I ask them how often they use Google Maps, they will tell me, "When I need it." So a different use case and obviously different product that is built for the specificity of the use case.

如果我问他们使用 Google 地图的频率，他们会告诉我，“当我需要时”。因此，不同的用例和明显不同的产品是针对用例的特殊性而构建的。

So Waze is way simpler and the map looks almost abstractive, they're not, but looks like abstractive and way less details.

所以位智要简单得多，地图看起来几乎是抽象的，但事实并非如此，但看起来很抽象，细节也少得多。

And the result is the ability to create something that is simpler and people are using every day.

其结果是能够创造出更简单、人们每天都在使用的东西。

Uri Levine: But when Google announced turn-by-turn navigation, all the investors in the world turn their back on us.

Uri Levine：但是当谷歌宣布逐步导航时，世界上所有的投资者都背弃了我们。

And that was 2010.

那是2010年。

We were looking for new funding.

我们正在寻找新的资金。

I remember that night, because we were just about to go and meet with all partners meeting at Khosla Ventures.

我记得那天晚上，因为我们正要去科斯拉风险投资公司与所有合伙人会面。

And we had multiple meetings beforehand and that was like, okay, this is the final seal.

我们事先举行了多次会议，就像，好吧，这就是最终的密封。

Uri Levine: And the evening before we had dinner with the partners that was promoting us at Khosla Ventures and he told us, "Look, I have a lot of relationship in the industry, and I spoke with my friends at Google and they told me that they are at least two years away from building their own maps." And the next morning they simply announced this turn-by-turn navigation.

Uri Levine：前一天晚上，我们与 Khosla Ventures 的合作伙伴共进晚餐，他告诉我们，“看，我在这个行业有很多关系，我和 Google 的朋友交谈过，他们告诉我，他们至少还需要两年时间才能构建自己的地图。”第二天早上，他们简单地宣布了这种路线导航。

Going to that meeting was a waste of time already.

去参加那个会议已经是浪费时间了。

And we had very, very hard time to raise capital because of that.

因此，我们在筹集资金方面经历了非常非常困难的时期。

Uri Levine: But eventually we were lucky in the sense that once Google announced their turn-by-turn navigation, turns out that the rest of the industry were took by surprise.

Uri Levine：但最终我们很幸运，因为一旦谷歌宣布了他们的路线导航，业界的其他公司都大吃一惊。

And Microsoft decided that wait a minute, we don't have our own maps, so let's invest in Waze.

微软决定等一下，我们没有自己的地图，所以让我们投资 Waze。

So we ended up getting investment from someone that we did not expect.

所以我们最终得到了我们意想不到的人的投资。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

So first of all, you've shared all these types of crisis, I think it might be helpful to do a quick taxonomy of the types of crisis founders face.

首先，您已经分享了所有这些类型的危机，我认为对创始人面临的危机类型进行快速分类可能会有所帮助。

You shared regulation changes, competitors coming at you, investors not wanting to invest.

你分享了监管的变化、竞争对手的攻击、投资者不想投资。

Uri Levine: So two types of, abstractly, two types of crisis.

尤里·莱文：抽象地说，有两种类型的危机。

One is that I would call that a cash crisis.

一是我将其称为现金危机。

So all of a sudden your cash program or plan is being jeopardized, for losing a customer, disappearing investor, not meeting your expectation, dramatic price change in the market and so forth.

因此，突然之间，您的现金计划或计划就会受到威胁，因为失去客户、消失的投资者、未达到您的期望、市场价格发生剧烈变化等等。

And the other one is lose of product market fit.

另一个是产品市场契合度的丧失。

So all of a sudden whatever you have is irrelevant anymore and you actually need to go back to square one.

所以突然间你所拥有的一切都不再重要了，你实际上需要回到第一个方向。

Uri Levine: For the first type of crisis, if this is a cash crisis, then what you really need to ask yourself, and in any type crisis, first of all is what is actually being impacted?

乌里·莱文：对于第一种类型的危机，如果这是一场现金危机，那么你真正需要问自己的是，在任何类型的危机中，首先是什么实际上受到了影响？

Is that my run rate, is that my product, is that my revenue stream?

这是我的运行率，是我的产品，还是我的收入来源？

If I'm still relevant?

如果我仍然相关？

Uri Levine: With Order.chat, we were irrelevant, that's it.

Uri Levine：对于 Order.chat，我们是无关紧要的，就是这样。

And so the first thing that you need to do is what is really being impacted?

因此，您需要做的第一件事是真正受到影响的是什么？

And then the second thing is how long it's going to last?

然后第二件事是它会持续多久？

Is that a temporary thing?

这是暂时的事情吗？

Is that forever?

那是永远吗？

Is that the new future?

这就是新的未来吗？

And then you ask yourself, okay, so how much run rate do I have?

然后你问自己，好吧，那么我的运行率是多少？

And you re-plan accordingly.

然后你相​​应地重新计划。

Uri Levine: And I'll give you some examples, and this is really important, because let's say that you're a company that we have $5 million of revenues a year, say 400,000 per month, and your burn rate, your net burn rate is 200,000.

Uri Levine：我会给你一些例子，这非常重要，因为假设你是一家每年收入 500 万美元的公司，比如说每月 40 万美元，你的烧钱率，你的净烧钱率是 20 万。

So you actually at the end of the year, in order to run for a year, you need about two and a half million dollars to run.

所以你实际上在年底的时候，为了运行一年，你需要大约二百五十万美元来运行。

If you lose half of the revenues, and you only had two and a half million in the bank, you now have six month to run.

如果你损失了一半的收入，而你的银行里只有二百五十万，那么你现在还有六个月的时间。

So obviously you need to re-adapt.

所以显然你需要重新适应。

Uri Levine: Now, one of the things that you might say to yourself, "I'm going to remain on the same course and I'm going to deal with the crisis in five month from now." Or you can basically say, "No, I'm going to change my expense to adjust to the current revenue stream that I have and still have 12 month of run rate."

乌里·莱文：现在，你可能会对自己说的一件事是：“我将继续走同样的路线，我将在五个月后应对这场危机。”或者你基本上可以说，“不，我将改变我的费用以适应我当前的收入流，并且仍然有 12 个月的运行率。”

Uri Levine: Whatever you are going to decide, you are going to decide, you need to decide today, right now.

尤里·莱文：无论你要做什么决定，你都要决定，你需要今天就决定。

And the reason is very simple, if you want to reduce the burn, the expenses in order to extend the run rate, if you wait two more month, then it's going to become nearly impossible to do.

原因很简单，如果你想减少烧钱、费用以延长运行率，如果你再等两个月，那么这几乎是不可能做到的。

If you wait six more month, then obviously this is impossible to do.

如果你再等六个月，那么显然这是不可能做到的。

So the longer that you wait, you actually lose options.

所以你等待的时间越长，你实际上就失去了选择。

The only ability to choose is today.

唯一能选择的就是今天。

This is one of the most challenging part of a crisis.

这是危机中最具挑战性的部分之一。

You actually need to make a decision rapidly, like today.

你实际上需要像今天一样迅速做出决定。

Uri Levine: There are few reasons to that.

Uri Levine：这没什么原因。

Number one is that if you don't then you might lose options.

第一，如果你不这样做，你可能会失去选择。

Number two, and this is about communicating within the organization that decision.

第二，这是关于在组织内沟通该决定。

Look, if there is a crisis everyone knows, everyone knows, and you don't do anything about it, this is not a good practice.

听着，如果出现了一场大家都知道、大家都知道的危机，而你却不采取任何行动，这不是一个好的做法。

Now you might want to decide, no, we're going to keep on running full steam ahead until we hit the wall because by that we increase the likelihood that we will have enough velocity to bypass the wall.

现在你可能想要决定，不，我们将继续全速前进，直到撞到墙壁，因为这样我们就增加了有足够速度绕过墙壁的可能性。

But you need to communicate that with your team because the one that is really suffer is not just you, it's the entire team.

但你需要与你的团队沟通这一点，因为真正受苦的不仅仅是你，而是整个团队。

They know that there is a crisis and they want to know that someone that holds the steering wheel is making the decisions.

他们知道存在危机，他们想知道掌握方向盘的人正在做出决定。

And if you don't, then guess what?

如果你不这样做，那你猜怎么着？

You are then a sinking ship.

那么你就是一艘正在下沉的船。

And what's going to happen is that the top performing people, they would leave.

将会发生的是，表现最好的人将会离开。

Lenny Rachitsky: Let me do a quick summary of what you've shared to give people a landscape and then let's keep going down this route.

Lenny Rachitsky：让我快速总结一下您所分享的内容，以便为人们提供一幅风景，然后让我们继续沿着这条路走下去。

So there's basically two types of crisis.

所以基本上有两种类型的危机。

And there's small crisis, I imagine someone's pissed off at something.

还有一个小危机，我想有人对某件事很生气。

These are how you describe major crisis, like existential crisis for your startup.

这些是你对重大危机的描述，比如你的初创公司的生存危机。

Is that the way to think about it?

是这样思考的吗？

Uri Levine: Right.

尤里·莱文：对。

Because if an A-player leaves, I hate it, but it's not a crisis.

因为如果一名一流球员离开，我会讨厌，但这并不是危机。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。

Okay, cool.

好吧，酷。

So there's two, cash crisis, which is either a bunch of revenue disappears or investors bail or don't want to keep supporting you.

所以有两个，现金危机，要么大量收入消失，要么投资者放弃或不想继续支持你。

Those are the two major buckets.

这是两个主要的桶。

And then there's product market fit crisis, could be a competitor launches, could be the market changes, things like that.

然后还有产品市场契合危机，可能是竞争对手的推出，也可能是市场的变化，诸如此类。

Lenny Rachitsky: And within the cash crisis, so say you realize we don't have as much cash as we planned or need, the three steps you just described, what is really being impacted?

Lenny Rachitsky：在现金危机中，假设您意识到我们没有计划或需要的现金，您刚才描述的三个步骤，真正受到影响的是什么？

Just be really real with what is the impact to our business with this change.

真正了解这一变化对我们业务的影响。

How long do we think this cash crisis will last?

我们认为这场现金危机会持续多久？

And how long do we have before we run out of cash essentially?

在我们基本上用完现金之前我们还有多长时间？

Uri Levine: Yep.

尤里·莱文：是的。

And then you need to decide, and then you need to decide on your action and your new plan and maybe it's a new strategy.

然后你需要做出决定，然后你需要决定你的行动和新计划，也许这是一个新策略。

If all of a sudden I would say if this is about product market fit disappeared, then this is a new strategy.

如果突然间我想说如果这是关于产品市场契合度的消失了，那么这是一个新的策略。

And maybe it's about deciding on extending the run rate or keep on trying or whatever.

也许这是关于决定延长运行速度或继续尝试或其他什么。

And this is something that is really interesting.

这是非常有趣的事情。

Uri Levine: And we go back to Covid and I look at two of my startups that were in the travel space, one of them is WeSki, and it's essentially the booking.com of ski vacations.

Uri Levine：我们回到 Covid，我看看我在旅游领域的两家初创公司，其中之一是 WeSki，它本质上是滑雪度假的 Booking.com。

And guess what?

你猜怎么着？

Covid started.

新冠疫情开始了。

And there was no more ski trips to Europe.

欧洲也不再有滑雪之旅了。

Europe were shut down completely.

欧洲完全关闭。

And all the ski areas were shut down.

所有滑雪场都被关闭。

And you know that I'm an avid skier?

你知道我是一名狂热的滑雪者吗？

For me that was a disaster on a personal level.

对我来说，这在个人层面上是一场灾难。

And eventually by the way, what happened is that I was back in Tel Aviv and I was unable to travel to Europe, and it was only somewhere in 2022 that I was able to travel to the US after vaccination and so forth.

顺便说一句，最终我回到了特拉维夫，无法前往欧洲，直到 2022 年的某个时候，我在接种疫苗等之后才能够前往美国。

And in March, 2022, I actually moved myself to Utah to Salt Lake City and I basically say, "No, I'm going to ski every day that I'm not busy." And I skied until the end of the season.

2022 年 3 月，我实际上搬到了犹他州盐湖城，我基本上说，“不，我每天不忙的时候都会去滑雪。”我一直滑雪到赛季结束。

Uri Levine: So what happened is that Covid started and we realized that we have major problem.

乌里·莱文（Uri Levine）：所以发生的事情是新冠病毒爆发，我们意识到我们遇到了重大问题。

And the problem was actually, the first thing that you face is cancellation because all of a sudden out of very few cancellations per day, you ended up with hundreds of cancellations per day because this is it.

问题实际上是，你面临的第一件事就是取消，因为突然之间，每天很少有取消，你最终会每天有数百个取消，因为就是这样。

And after you dealt with that, then the next question that we ask ourselves, okay, so how bad is it, how long it's going to last?

在你处理完这个问题之后，我们问自己的下一个问题是，情况有多糟糕，它会持续多久？

Uri Levine: Now that was supposed to be the first year that we were profitable.

Uri Levine：那应该是我们盈利的第一年。

So we did not have a lot of cash in the bank because we expected to become profitable this year.

所以我们银行里没有很多现金，因为我们预计今年会盈利。

And we basically told our ourself, okay, this season is over, next season is not going to happen.

我们基本上告诉自己，好吧，这个赛季结束了，下个赛季不会发生。

We don't know, but we need to plan for something that is going to last longer than that.

我们不知道，但我们需要为持续时间更长的事情做好计划。

And then we basically say, okay, how can we deal with it?

然后我们基本上会说，好吧，我们该如何处理呢？

Uri Levine: Now, because of WeSki had a lot of strategic investors from the travel industry, in the travel industry, they didn't really care about WeSki, they care about their own product.

Uri Levine：现在，因为WeSki有很多来自旅游行业的战略投资者，在旅游行业，他们并不真正关心WeSki，他们关心的是自己的产品。

If you are a hotel chain, then guess what?

如果您是一家连锁酒店，那么您猜怎么着？

You have no travelers.

你没有旅行者。

If you're an airline, guess what?

如果你是航空公司，你猜怎么着？

You have no flyers.

你没有传单。

So anyone in the travel industry suffered from the same problem.

因此，旅游业的任何人都遇到了同样的问题。

And the last thing on earth that they care about is a startup that they invested at.

他们最不关心的就是他们投资的初创公司。

And we realized that, okay, wait a minute, we don't have enough cash to survive for two seasons without revenues, we need to raise additional capital.

我们意识到，好吧，等一下，我们没有足够的现金在没有收入的情况下生存两个赛季，我们需要筹集额外的资金。

Uri Levine: Now, no one, no new investor is going to speak with us, because there's no ski, so what are you talking about?

Uri Levine：现在，没有人、没有新的投资者会与我们交谈，因为没有滑雪，所以你在说什么？

And we approached the existing investor, and by the way I'm one of them, and we basically say, "Okay, you know what?

我们联系了现有的投资者，顺便说一句，我是其中之一，我们基本上说，“好吧，你知道吗？

We need your help." And everyone told us, "Oh, we are busy.

我们需要你的帮助。”每个人都告诉我们，“哦，我们很忙。

We have other problems to deal with.

我们还有其他问题需要处理。

We have our own problems.

我们有我们自己的问题。

I don't see how is that going to become a good investment and so forth." And then we basically decided that, okay, wait a minute, we're going to do a pay to play.

我不明白这如何成为一项好的投资等等。”然后我们基本上决定，好吧，等一下，我们要付费玩。

Uri Levine: The pay to play is actually sort of forcing new investors at the expense of the existing one.

Uri Levine：付费实际上是在迫使新投资者牺牲现有投资者。

So for example, doing a major down round is sort of pay to play, because if you're not participate your position in the company is going to be diluted severely.

举例来说，进行重大的下一轮融资是一种付费游戏，因为如果你不参与，你在公司的地位将被严重稀释。

And this is what we decided to do.

这就是我们决定要做的。

And that was way more complex, I describe that in the book, way more complex than that because we also had safe instruments that we need to convert before we can actually do something like that.

我在书中描述了这一点，这要复杂得多，因为我们还需要转换安全工具，然后才能真正做类似的事情。

And that was really complex.

这真的很复杂。

But we ended up doing that.

但我们最终还是这么做了。

And today the company is actually very successful.

如今，该公司实际上非常成功。

Uri Levine: After Covid, we used the time of Covid to actually improve the product, and as soon as Covid was over then we started to grow rapidly.

Uri Levine：新冠疫情之后，我们利用新冠疫情的时间来实际改进产品，新冠疫情一结束，我们就开始快速增长。

And the company is profitable, is growing rapidly, is actually providing very, very good service to its customers.

该公司正在盈利，正在快速增长，实际上正在为客户提供非常非常好的服务。

To a certain extent I would say we ended up getting out of this crisis successfully.

在某种程度上，我想说我们最终成功地摆脱了这场危机。

Uri Levine: But if you are in the middle of it and you ask yourself, so what are the chances that we will end up being successful?

尤里·莱文：但是如果你身处其中并问自己，那么我们最终成功的机会有多大？

It looks way smaller.

看上去小了很多。

Way smaller.

小得多。

So what happened here is that you realize that, okay, this is not forever, so ski is going to come back but we don't know how long and therefore we assume that it's going to be for two seasons until it's coming back, until 2022.

所以这里发生的事情是你意识到，好吧，这不是永远的，所以滑雪会回来，但我们不知道要持续多久，因此我们假设这将持续两个赛季，直到 2022 年才回来。

And for that we need to adapt.

为此，我们需要适应。

And so we resized the company to be very, very lean and small and we raise just enough capital to survive those two years.

因此，我们将公司规模调整得非常非常精简，规模也很小，我们筹集的资金刚好足以维持这两年的生存。

And it ended up to be working very well.

结果效果非常好。

But in that sense now, if you would ask me how much luck was in there, luck is always good.

但现在从这个意义上说，如果你问我其中有多少运气，那么运气总是好的。

Uri Levine: I think that I heard ...

尤里·莱文：我想我听到了……

maybe the most significant real estate developers in New York is Silverstein, and he built the World Trade Center and pretty much everything on the Hudson.

也许纽约最重要的房地产开发商是西尔弗斯坦，他建造了世界贸易中心以及哈德逊河上的几乎所有东西。

And he was asked how he becomes such a successful developer and he said, "Tell you the truth, this is 85% luck and 15% skills and know-how and so forth." And then he was asked if he can change one thing, what exactly it's going to be, and he said, "You know what?

当有人问他如何成为一名如此成功的开发人员时，他说：“说实话，这是 85% 的运气和 15% 的技能和诀窍等等。”然后有人问他是否可以改变一件事，到底会改变什么，他说：“你知道吗？

I'm going to replace the 15% skills with additional 15% luck." So luck is good.

我打算用额外的 15% 运气来取代 15% 的技能。”所以运气还是不错的。

For me luck, I will define luck as opportunity meets readiness.

对于我的运气来说，我将运气定义为机遇与准备的结合。

Readiness is up to you; opportunity, not always.

准备情况取决于您；机会，并不总是。

Lenny Rachitsky: Beautifully said.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：说得好。

I also agree with luck being so core to most people's success, most company's success.

我也同意运气对于大多数人的成功、大多数公司的成功至关重要。

But I feel like you're not giving people enough credit for the hard work that's also involved in the skills and timing and stuff.

但我觉得你没有对人们的辛勤工作给予足够的信任，这些努力还涉及技能、时间安排等方面。

Uri Levine: Of being ready to take advantage of opportunity.

Uri Levine：准备好利用机会。

Lenny Rachitsky: That makes sense.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：这是有道理的。

Okay, there's a bunch of stuff I want to dig into here.

好吧，这里有很多我想深入研究的东西。

So one is, and this is something, it's kind of a tangent, but I think it's a core part of your advice on crisis, which is that it's always the founder's fault if things don't work out, even if they're completely out of your control, even if the whole world is changing, it's still your responsibility and your fault if things don't work out.

所以，这是一种切线，但我认为这是你关于危机的建议的核心部分，那就是如果事情不顺利，这总是创始人的错，即使它们完全超出你的控制，即使整个世界都在变化，如果事情不顺利，这仍然是你的责任和你的错。

Uri Levine: I wouldn't say fault, I would say responsibility.

Uri Levine：我不会说错误，我会说责任。

Uri Levine: It might not end up beautiful, in some cases you will die.

Uri Levine：最终可能不会很美好，在某些情况下你会死。

But at the end of the day you cannot rely on someone else.

但归根结底，你不能依赖别人。

The fact that the interest rate is going up and the result is that it's becoming very, very hard to raise capital, the fact that this is industry-wide, so what?

事实上，利率正在上升，结果是筹集资金变得非常非常困难，这是整个行业的事实，那又怎样呢？

You have only one company, you need to make sure that this company is successful.

你只有一家公司，你需要确保这家公司成功。

And later on if you fail, then you can rely to then basically say, "This is my excuse, it was not just me." Not just me is not going to help you to become successful.

后来如果你失败了，那么你可以依靠然后基本上说，“这是我的借口，不仅仅是我。”不仅仅是我无法帮助你取得成功。

Just me is going to help you to become successful.

只有我才能帮助您取得成功。

When you assume responsibility, then you are able to ...

当你承担起责任时，你就能够...

you're basically saying, "You know what?

你基本上是在说：“你知道吗？

I control my own destiny.

我掌控自己的命运。

I'm going to make the decisions and I control my own destiny." When this happens, you increase the likelihood of being successful regardless what happen to the rest of the market, and you don't really care.

我将做出决定，我掌控自己的命运。”当这种情况发生时，无论市场其他部分发生什么，你成功的可能性都会增加，而且你并不真正关心。

Lenny Rachitsky: You also talk along these lines, you have this in your chapter, the section of never give up in a crisis and throughout your journey, this is by far the most important behavior of a startup CEO.

Lenny Rachitsky：您也说了这样的话，在您的章节中，在危机中永不放弃的部分以及在您的整个旅程中，这是迄今为止初创公司首席执行官最重要的行为。

Can you just talk about that.

你能谈谈这个吗？

Because a lot of times it's like maybe just stop, maybe just give up.

因为很多时候，也许就停下来，也许就放弃。

You shared one example where it's like I don't want to deal with regulation, other companies, I'm just going to stop.

你分享了一个例子，我不想与监管和其他公司打交道，我就停下来。

Any advice there, just like, okay, maybe it does make sense just to stop and try to give the investor's money back versus, yeah, it's just part of your job not to give up.

那里的任何建议，就像，好吧，也许停下来尝试归还投资者的钱确实有意义，而不是，是的，这只是你工作的一部分，不要放弃。

Uri Levine: I heard of cases that you basically say our underlining assumptions didn't work out and our thesis is wrong and therefore we would like to return the investors their money.

Uri Levine：我听说过一些案例，您基本上说我们的基本假设没有实现，我们的论文是错误的，因此我们希望退还投资者的钱。

But entrepreneurs never give up.

但企业家永远不会放弃。

And this is the most successful behavior of startup CEO, never give up, always keep on looking for ways to make it work.

这就是创业公司CEO最成功的行为，永不放弃，不断寻找让它发挥作用的方法。

And so it is going to be a journey of failures, and in particular during crisis, but you still need to keep on trying to make it work even though it's way harder.

因此，这将是一个失败的旅程，特别是在危机期间，但你仍然需要继续努力使其发挥作用，尽管这会更加困难。

So never give up is the most important behavior of successful CEO of startup.

所以永不放弃是成功创业公司CEO最重要的行为。

Uri Levine: The second one, by the way, is making decisions with conviction.

Uri Levine：顺便说一句，第二个是坚定地做出决定。

This is true for all CEOs or for all companies, not just startups.

这对所有首席执行官或所有公司都是如此，而不仅仅是初创公司。

Now startups, those decisions are probably more frequent and there are a lot of them.

现在的初创公司，这些决定可能更加频繁，而且数量很多。

But during crisis, all CEOs in the world need to make hard decisions.

但在危机期间，世界上所有首席执行官都需要做出艰难的决定。

And you need to make them with conviction because if you don't make them with conviction, then what will happen is that the team is not going to follow.

你需要坚定地制定它们，因为如果你不坚定地制定它们，那么团队就不会遵循。

If the team is not going to follow, then you are not going to be successful.

如果团队不跟随，那么你就不会成功。

Uri Levine: But never give up.

尤里·莱文：但永远不要放弃。

You ask entrepreneurs what will happen and they will basically tell you, "No, we keep on fighting." One of my other startups in the travel industry called Oversee, back then they called FairFly.

你问企业家会发生什么，他们基本上会告诉你，“不，我们会继续战斗。”我在旅游行业的另一家初创公司叫 Oversee，当时他们叫 FairFly。

And the CEO told me that a cat might have nine souls.

首席执行官告诉我，一只猫可能有九个灵魂。

We are a cat in that sense, we have nine souls.

从这个意义上说，我们是一只猫，我们有九个灵魂。

And the reason that I know that is that we already died nine times or almost died nine times.

我知道这一点的原因是我们已经死了九次或差点死了九次。

And so the reality is that you don't give up, you keep on as long as ...

所以现实是你不会放弃，只要坚持下去......

Uri Levine: And for a second I would say, look, there are only two reasons that you would like to give up.

乌里·莱文：我想说，看，只有两个原因让你想放弃。

One is that your mission is wrong.

一是你的使命是错误的。

So the problem disappears.

所以问题就消失了。

And if the problem disappears, your mission is no longer relevant or no longer valid, and you might want to consider to give up.

如果问题消失，您的任务就不再相关或不再有效，您可能需要考虑放弃。

Uri Levine: The other one is that if the team is not right and you are unable to change it.

乌里·莱文：另一个是，如果团队不合适，你无法改变它。

So you brought toxic investors into the board and they started to control the company and obviously in many cases they create more damage than help.

因此，您将有毒投资者引入董事会，他们开始控制公司，显然在许多情况下，他们造成的损害大于帮助。

And you're unable to change that anymore, then this is a good reason to give up.

而你无法再改变这一点，那么这就是放弃的好理由。

Uri Levine: Other than that, never give up.

尤里·莱文：除此之外，永不放弃。

Crisis, not crisis, hardship, no money to pay, no ...

危机，不是危机，困难，没有钱支付，没有……

anything that might happen, anything that you might want to think that might happen will happen.

任何可能发生的事情，任何你可能认为可能发生的事情都会发生。

Lenny Rachitsky: I'm excited to chat with Christina Gilbert, the founder of OneSchema, one of our longtime podcast sponsors.

Lenny Rachitsky：我很高兴能与 OneSchema 的创始人 Christina Gilbert 聊天，OneSchema 是我们的长期播客赞助商之一。

Hi Christina.

嗨克里斯蒂娜。

Christina Gilbert: Yes, thank you for having me on, Lenny.

克里斯蒂娜·吉尔伯特：是的，谢谢你邀请我参加，莱尼。

Lenny Rachitsky: What is the latest with OneSchema?

Lenny Rachitsky：OneSchema 的最新动态是什么？

I know you now work with some of my favorite companies like Ramp, Vanta, Scale and Watershed.

我知道您现在与一些我最喜欢的公司合作，例如 Ramp、Vanta、Scale 和 Watershed。

I heard that you just launched a new product to help product teams import CSVs from especially tricky systems like ERPs.

我听说你们刚刚推出了一款新产品，帮助产品团队从 ERP 等特别棘手的系统导入 CSV。

Christina Gilbert: Yes, so we just launched OneSchema FileFeeds, which allows you to build an integration with any system in 15 minutes as long as you can export a CSV to an SFTP folder.

Christina Gilbert：是的，所以我们刚刚推出了 OneSchema FileFeeds，只要您可以将 CSV 导出到 SFTP 文件夹，您就可以在 15 分钟内与任何系统构建集成。

We see our customers all the time getting stuck with hacks and workarounds.

我们经常看到我们的客户被黑客攻击和解决方法所困扰。

And the product teams that we work with don't have to turn down prospects because their systems are too hard to integrate with.

与我们合作的产品团队不必因为他们的系统太难集成而拒绝潜在客户。

We allow our customers to offer thousands of integrations without involving their engineering team at all.

我们允许客户提供数千种集成，而无需他们的工程团队参与。

Lenny Rachitsky: I can tell you that if my team had to build integrations like this, how nice would it be to be able to take this off my roadmap and instead use something like OneSchema.

Lenny Rachitsky：我可以告诉你，如果我的团队必须构建这样的集成，那么能够将其从我的路线图上删除并使用 OneSchema 之类的东西该多好。

And not just to build it but also to maintain it forever.

不仅要建造它，还要永远维护它。

Christina Gilbert: Absolutely, Lenny.

克里斯蒂娜·吉尔伯特：当然，莱尼。

We've heard so many horror stories of multi-day outages from even just a handful of ad records.

我们已经从少量的广告记录中听到了许多多天停机的恐怖故事。

We are laser focused on integration reliability to help teams end all of those distractions that come up with integrations.

我们高度关注集成可靠性，以帮助团队消除集成带来的所有干扰。

We have a built-in validation layer that stops any bad data from entering your system and OneSchema will notify your team immediately of any data that looks incorrect.

我们有一个内置的验证层，可以阻止任何不良数据进入您的系统，OneSchema 将立即通知您的团队任何看起来不正确的数据。

Lenny Rachitsky: I know that importing incorrect data can cause all kinds of pain for your customers and quickly lose their trust.

Lenny Rachitsky：我知道导入不正确的数据会给您的客户带来各种痛苦，并很快失去他们的信任。

Christina, thank you for joining us.

克里斯蒂娜，感谢您加入我们。

And if you want to learn more, head on over to oneschema.co. That's oneschema.co.

如果您想了解更多信息，请访问 oneschema.co。那是 oneschema.co。

Lenny Rachitsky: This idea of never give up, it's very similar to Dalton Caldwell was on the podcast, he's a partner at YC, and his whole ...

Lenny Rachitsky：这种永不放弃的想法，与播客中的 Dalton Caldwell 非常相似，他是 YC 的合伙人，他的整个......

he has a famous talk, I guess, at YC, and this was the title of this podcast episode, is just don't die.

我猜他在 YC 上有过一次著名的演讲，这就是这期播客的标题，就是“别死”。

That's his main advice to a startup, just don't die.

这是他对初创公司的主要建议：不要死。

Uri Levine: You might die by the way, you might die, you'll never give up.

Uri Levine：顺便说一句，你可能会死，你可能会死，但你永远不会放弃。

Lenny Rachitsky: Then be reborn.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：那就重生吧。

And to be clear, the way a startup dies is they run out of money, is that the simplest way to think about that?

需要明确的是，初创公司的死亡方式就是资金耗尽，这是最简单的思考方式吗？

Uri Levine: That's the only way that they die.

尤里·莱文：这是他们死的唯一方法。

By the way, all the companies in the world, they are unable to pay their bills and therefore they die.

顺便说一句，世界上所有的公司都无法支付账单，因此他们就死了。

Lenny Rachitsky: And many of the tactics you share is just ways to not run out of money.

Lenny Rachitsky：您分享的许多策略只是不耗尽资金的方法。

Oftentimes it involves down rounds, creating strange cap structures just to keep it alive, losing equity percentage just to keep it going, that's part of the job basically, and that's what you have to deal with.

通常，它涉及减持融资，创造奇怪的上限结构只是为了保持它的活力，失去股权百分比只是为了让它继续下去，这基本上是工作的一部分，这就是你必须处理的事情。

Uri Levine: In many cases, we had to engage the employees, "No, we don't have cash." So what we did is that we diluted all shareholders in order to give employees way more equity.

Uri Levine：在很多情况下，我们不得不让员工参与进来，“不，我们没有现金。”所以我们所做的是稀释所有股东，以便为员工提供更多股权。

So five times more equity than they had before.

因此，他们的资产比以前多了五倍。

And we told them, we need you to trust us and believe in the cause and believe in our ability to recover.

我们告诉他们，我们需要你们信任我们，相信我们的事业，相信我们恢复的能力。

And if we don't, then everyone loses.

如果我们不这样做，那么每个人都会失败。

But if we do, then everyone wins big time.

但如果我们这样做，那么每个人都会赢得巨大的胜利。

And so this will be a way to actually reengage employees if you are unable to pay them their regular pay.

因此，如果您无法向员工支付正常工资，这将是一种真正重新吸引员工的方法。

And that was the case in most of the startups that almost run out of cash.

大多数几乎耗尽现金的初创公司都是这种情况。

Uri Levine: Occasionally you can do, if you will tell me that you're going to run out of cash next month and therefore you need to shut down, I would like to imagine that you have at least six more month of run rate.

Uri Levine：偶尔你可以这样做，如果你告诉我下个月你的现金就会用完，因此你需要关闭，我想你至少还有六个月的运行率。

You don't know that, but this is through leadership.

你不知道，但这是通过领导力实现的。

So you basically tell your people, "Stay with me, you believed in the cause, you believed in my leadership, I still believe in the cause and I still believe in you.

所以你基本上告诉你的员工，“和我在一起，你相信这个事业，你相信我的领导，我仍然相信这个事业，我仍然相信你。

And maybe we are going to have some hard time, maybe we are going to have some month that unable to pay, but eventually we will get out of that." And in many cases, most people will stay.

也许我们会遇到一些困难，也许我们会有一段时间无法付款，但最终我们会摆脱困境。”在很多情况下，大多数人都会留下来。

Uri Levine: Now, leadership, you don't build leadership during crisis, you might, but in particular you build leadership through transparency, through recognitions of your team, through actually putting your team as the top priority.

乌里·莱文：现在，领导力，你不能在危机期间建立领导力，你可以，但特别是你可以通过透明度、通过对你的团队的认可、通过实际上把你的团队作为重中之重来建立领导力。

At the end of the day, you are going to be successful if your team delivers.

归根结底，如果您的团队能够交付成果，您就会成功。

And in order for the team to deliver, then they need you to trust them to deliver.

为了让团队能够交付成果，他们需要您相信他们能够交付成果。

Lenny Rachitsky: This is really powerful advice and I want to spend a little more time here, which is keeping people on board and engaged and motivated through a crisis.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是非常有力的建议，我想在这里多花一点时间，这可以让人们在危机中保持参与、参与和激励。

So this kind of almost script you just shared is really great.

所以你刚才分享的这种差不多的脚本真的很棒。

Is there anything else that you found useful or any advice you could share for helping a founder keep the team on board, keep people excited, driven?

您是否还有其他有用的信息或建议可以分享，以帮助创始人保持团队的凝聚力，让人们保持兴奋和动力？

These words you shared I think is a really good example, is there anything else?

我认为你分享的这些话是一个非常好的例子，还有其他吗？

Uri Levine: So during crisis, people will appreciate more than anything else transparency.

尤里·莱文：因此，在危机期间，人们最欣赏的是透明度。

And if you hide information from them, then they would leave, they don't trust you anymore.

如果你向他们隐瞒信息，那么他们就会离开，他们不再信任你。

But if there is a crisis, and look, if there is a crisis then everyone knows that there is a crisis, it's not surprising for anyone.

但如果出现危机，你看，如果出现危机，那么每个人都知道存在危机，这对任何人来说都不足为奇。

And this is where they expect your leadership the most.

这就是他们最期望你的领导力的地方。

This is where they expect you to be there for them.

这是他们希望您在场的地方。

And tell them that this is what we're going to do.

并告诉他们这就是我们要做的。

And if ABC happens, then we will be successful.

如果 ABC 发生，那么我们就会成功。

And if it's not, then we will die.

如果不是，那么我们就会死。

And I want you to believe that we can deliver A, B and C, and I want you to stay here for that part of the journey.

我希望你相信我们可以实现 A、B 和 C，并且我希望你在这段旅程中留在这里。

And this is really, really dramatic, this is perhaps the most important part.

这真的非常非常戏剧性，这也许是最重要的部分。

Look, during crisis, the team is the one that is going to take you out of the crisis, and you need them more than ever.

看，在危机期间，团队是能够带你走出危机的人，你比以往任何时候都更需要他们。

And guess what?

你猜怎么着？

They need you.

他们需要你。

Lenny Rachitsky: When you talk about being transparent and open about everything, what's an example of just how far you recommend people go?

Lenny Rachitsky：当您谈到对所有事情保持透明和开放时，您建议人们走多远的例子是什么？

Because you could just be like, here's all of our data and metrics and numbers, here's what our investors are emailing me.

因为你可能会说，这是我们所有的数据、指标和数字，这是我们的投资者通过电子邮件发送给我的内容。

How real do you recommend people get?

你对人们的推荐有多真实？

I know it's hard to just summarize in a couple sentences, but what's a good way to illustrate that?

我知道很难用几句话来概括，但是有什么好方法来说明这一点呢？

Uri Levine: So number one, don't sugarcoat.

Uri Levine：所以第一，不要粉饰。

So you basically you don't need to share all the feedbacks from all the investors.

所以你基本上不需要分享所有投资者的所有反馈。

You can tell them, "Look, I met dozens of investors in the last couple of weeks and they're all saying no." Or we had a signed term sheet and the investor disappeared.

你可以告诉他们，“看，过去几周我见了几十位投资者，他们都拒绝了。”或者我们签署了一份投资意向书，但投资者却消失了。

Okay, that's fine.

好吧，没关系。

It is what it is.

就是这样。

Look, the fact that it's ugly, if you don't tell that it's ugly, it's still ugly.

你看，丑这个事实，你不说它丑，它还是丑。

Uri Levine: And so I would share the essence.

Uri Levine：所以我想分享本质。

And if we have metrics, then what I would like to do is believe that everyone is aware of the metrics, of the key metrics of the company.

如果我们有指标，那么我想做的就是相信每个人都了解这些指标，了解公司的关键指标。

This is something that in general I would say, "Oh, in the lobby of the office, we should have the key metrics displayed for everyone to understand this is what we stand for, this is how well we are executing anyhow." And so when they will see the numbers drop, they know that the numbers drop.

一般来说，我会说，“哦，在办公室的大厅里，我们应该向每个人展示关键指标，让他们了解这就是我们的立场，这就是我们无论如何执行的情况。”因此，当他们看到数字下降时，他们就知道数字下降了。

And this is something that I will in general I would say, look, key metrics, they should be shared anyhow.

这是我一般会说的，看，关键指标，无论如何它们都应该共享。

And so in particular during crisis, we should keep on sharing them.

因此，特别是在危机期间，我们应该继续分享它们。

Definitely not hiding information.

绝对不是隐藏信息。

So if you have a major customer leave or investor disappear or we are unable to sign a term sheet.

因此，如果您有主要客户离开或投资者消失或我们无法签署投资意向书。

And so this is the highlight, this is the major issue.

所以这是亮点，这是主要问题。

And the details themselves, it's less critical.

而细节本身并不那么重要。

Now if people ask, then answer.

现在，如果有人问，就回答。

If someone ask, "Okay, so how many investors have you met?" I'd say no, then start counting, 37, be specific.

如果有人问：“好吧，那你见过多少个投资人？”我会说不，然后开始数，37，具体一点。

Lenny Rachitsky: That's a great answer.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个很好的答案。

I want to come back to something you said that I think is so important but so hard, which is to act fast.

我想回到你所说的我认为非常重要但又非常困难的事情，那就是快速行动。

If I was a founder, something changes in the market, it's easy to say, "Okay, you need to cut burn, you need go raise money, down round." It's so hard to do, to lay people off, to do all these challenging things for your company.

如果我是一名创始人，市场发生变化，我很容易说，“好吧，你需要减少烧钱，你需要筹集资金，进行一轮融资。”裁员、为公司做所有这些具有挑战性的事情是非常困难的。

Can you again just help people understand why it's so important to act fast?

您能否再次帮助人们理解为什么快速行动如此重要？

You talked about optionality goes away.

你谈到选择性消失了。

Just like what actually happens there if you don't?

就像如果你不这样做的话实际会发生什么？

Uri Levine: So I'll give you an example.

Uri Levine：所以我给你举个例子。

So let's say that you are almost run out of cash and you believe that you're going to raise capital in the next two month.

假设您几乎耗尽了现金，并且您相信您将在接下来的两个月内筹集资金。

And if not, then you run out of cash.

如果没有，那么你的现金就用完了。

One of the things that you might want to do is extend the run rate.

您可能想要做的事情之一是提高运行率。

One other thing that you might want to do is actually tell the people that we will be running out of cash in two month.

您可能想做的另一件事是实际上告诉人们我们将在两个月内耗尽现金。

And number one, I want you to help me even if we run out of cash because there are good chances that we eventually will be able to raise capital and recover that.

第一，即使我们用完了现金，我也希望你能帮助我，因为我们最终很有可能能够筹集资金并收回资金。

And number two, in order to get your support and belief in the company I am going to offer you more equity.

第二，为了获得您对公司的支持和信任，我将向您提供更多股权。

So, the more equity is something that I will do twice, once today, once you realize that this is going to be challenging, and then again if we need to ask people to reduce their salary or do something dramatic around that.

因此，更多的公平性是我会做的事情两次，一次是今天，一旦你意识到这将具有挑战性，然后如果我们需要要求人们降低工资或为此做一些戏剧性的事情，那么我会再做一次。

Uri Levine: And the first one is actually preventive action.

尤里·莱文：第一个实际上是预防措施。

So you share the know-how, you share the challenges that we are going to face.

因此，您分享了专业知识，分享了我们将面临的挑战。

And you demonstrate generosity not out of you have to, but you demonstrate that.

你表现出的慷慨并不是出于你必须这样做，而是你表现出了这一点。

And then you essentially dramatically increase their loyalty and their commitment.

然后你就可以显着提高他们的忠诚度和承诺。

And when you will need them, they will be there.

当您需要它们时，它们就会出现。

So this is one example.

这是一个例子。

Uri Levine: The other example is about calculating end of cash.

Uri Levine：另一个例子是关于计算现金结束的。

And this is really, really important.

这真的非常非常重要。

So let's say that you have run rate of X month, six month.

假设您的运行率为 X 个月，即六个月。

If you reduce burn by 50% today, then you simply increase your run rate to a year.

如果您今天将烧钱减少 50%，那么您只需将运转率增加到一年即可。

If you don't do it today and you wait three more month, then you only can do that for the ...

如果你今天不做，再等三个月，那么你只能做......

so the first three month you burn the same way that you did up until now, and now you reduce that to half, so you have six more month, total of nine month.

所以前三个月你的燃烧方式与迄今为止相同，现在你将其减少到一半，所以你还有六个月，总共九个月。

If you decided today that you need 12 month, and you don't act today, you will never have 12 month.

如果你今天决定需要12个月，而你今天不采取行动，那么你永远不会有12个月。

Uri Levine: Now, is that the only way to do that?

Uri Levine：现在，这是唯一的方法吗？

No, it's not the only way, but it's one of the ways that by the way most companies will do.

不，这不是唯一的方法，但这是大多数公司都会采取的方法之一。

So they will reduce burn rate today in order to extend the run rate.

因此，他们今天将降低燃烧率，以提高运行率。

Is that going to be more helpful?

这会更有帮助吗？

Don't know.

不知道。

Really depending on the case.

确实要看具体情况。

Uri Levine: If you had asked me if you reduce the burn rate, increase the run rate, so now you have 12 month to raise new capital, is that going to have higher likelihood of remaining with the current plan and growth and raise capital within six month?

Uri Levine：如果您问我是否降低烧钱率，提高运行率，那么现在您有 12 个月的时间筹集新资金，那么保持当前计划和增长并在六个月内筹集资金的可能性是否更大？

I don't know that.

我不知道。

But this is exactly the decision that you need to make.

但这正是您需要做出的决定。

Lenny Rachitsky: That's a really great way of putting it.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个非常好的表达方式。

Just the math means the leverage you have now to extend runway is so much higher the sooner you make the decision.

仅从数学上看，您越早做出决定，您现在拥有的延长跑道的杠杆就越高。

And the key, just going back to your algorithm of deciding if we need to act in this way quickly, is first think about what's being impacted, then how long is this impact going to last, and then how long do I have before you run out of money.

关键是，回到决定我们是否需要快速采取这种行动的算法，首先考虑什么会受到影响，然后这种影响会持续多久，然后在你用完钱之前我还有多长时间。

And those questions is your advice for deciding, do we let people go now, do we raise money now.

这些问题是你做出决定的建议，我们现在是否让人们离开，我们现在是否筹集资金。

Uri Levine: There is always, by the way, there is always alternative for let people go.

Uri Levine：顺便说一下，总是有其他选择让人们离开。

In general, I would say letting people go is probably better than reducing salary for everyone.

总的来说，我想说，让员工离开可能比减少每个人的工资更好。

But let's say that you need cost reduction of 30%.

但假设您需要降低 30% 的成本。

One of the options is let 30% of the people go.

选择之一是让 30% 的人离开。

Another option is actually reduce salary by 30% for everyone.

另一种选择实际上是为每个人减少 30% 的工资。

And it's going to have the same impact.

它也会产生同样的影响。

Not exactly, the same impact on the balance sheet and on the P&L, but not necessarily on the organization.

不完全一样，对资产负债表和损益表的影响相同，但不一定对组织有影响。

If the organization feels that they are committed to each other, they will prefer the second way.

如果组织认为他们彼此忠诚，他们会更喜欢第二种方式。

If this is more of individuals, then obviously they will prefer the first way.

如果这是更多的个人，那么显然他们会更喜欢第一种方式。

Uri Levine: Is there a different way?

尤里·莱文：还有其他方法吗？

What about if management gives up on their salary?

如果管理层放弃他们的薪水怎么办？

That might make the same impact.

这可能会产生同样的影响。

And definitely demonstration of leadership.

并且绝对展示了领导力。

And by the way, increasing the commitment of the rest of the organization.

顺便说一句，增加了组织其他部门的承诺。

Uri Levine: So in that sense, I would say there are multiple ways of reducing the cost.

Uri Levine：从这个意义上说，我想说有多种方法可以降低成本。

But in general, this is always about impacting people.

但总的来说，这始终是为了影响人们。

If you look at the startup and you look at the budget, 70% of the budget is people, maybe 75% of the budget is people.

如果你看看初创公司并看看预算，就会发现 70% 的预算是人，也许 75% 的预算是人。

Everything else is nickels and dimes.

其他一切都是五分钱和一毛钱。

If you're going to tell me, "Oh no, we are going to start the supply of coffee to the office and this is how we are going to reduce cost." No, this is how you create dissatisfaction with the team and you would reduce costs because some people would leave because of that, not because of lack of coffee, but because of inability to determine and to make hard decisions.

如果你要告诉我，“哦不，我们将开始向办公室供应咖啡，这就是我们降低成本的方式。”不，这就是你对团队不满的方式，你会降低成本，因为有些人会因此而离开，不是因为缺乏咖啡，而是因为无法确定和做出艰难的决定。

So end of the day, if you need to reduce costs that means people.

所以归根结底，如果你需要降低成本，那就意味着人员。

Lenny Rachitsky: That was really good advice and really good set of options to consider versus laying people off.

Lenny Rachitsky：这确实是一个很好的建议，也是相对于裁员而言值得考虑的一套非常好的选择。

So most of what we've been talking about right now has been the cash crisis route.

所以我们现在谈论的大部分内容都是现金危机路线。

We've spent a little time on the product market fit crisis route.

我们在产品市场适应危机路线上花了一些时间。

But I want to spend a little more time there.

但我想在那里多花一点时间。

So for the cash crisis route, you have these kind of three questions and then it's like, cool, this will tell you how quickly to act and how severely to make cuts.

因此，对于现金危机路线，你会遇到这三个问题，然后，很酷，这会告诉你采取行动的速度以及削减的力度。

In the product market fit route, is it essentially if you've lost product market fit, it's to pivot, is that basically the question?

在产品市场契合路线中，如果你失去了产品市场契合度，那么本质上就是要转向，这基本上是问题吗？

And then it's a question of where to pivot and what to do?

接下来的问题是转向何处以及做什么？

Uri Levine: So the first question is, am I still relevant?

Uri Levine：所以第一个问题是，我仍然有意义吗？

And probably the answer is no. And then the next question that you basically say, "Okay, do I want to pivot?" And for that I will say, "If I would start today, is this is what I'm going to do?" And if the answer is yes, then do it.

答案可能是否定的。然后你基本上会问下一个问题：“好吧，我想转型吗？”为此我会说，“如果我从今天开始，这就是我要做的事情吗？”如果答案是肯定的，那就去做吧。

Uri Levine: Now in many cases you say, "Oh, wait a minute, I already have the organization and I already have money in the bank and this is what I'm going to do instead." I wouldn't necessarily do that.

乌里·莱文：现在在很多情况下你会说，“哦，等一下，我已经有了组织，我已经在银行里有了钱，这就是我要做的。”我不一定会那么做。

The way that I would look at it is different.

我看待它的方式有所不同。

Because the other alternative is basically say, "Wait a minute, all of my underlining assumptions have gone, they are wrong." I lost product market fit.

因为另一种选择基本上是说，“等一下，我所有的强调假设都消失了，它们是错误的。”我失去了产品市场契合度。

The value proposition that I had is wrong or is no longer valid or no longer relevant.

我的价值主张是错误的，或者不再有效或不再相关。

And therefore I need to start from scratch.

因此我需要从头开始。

Do I really have the assets to become successful on the new path?

我真的有能力在新的道路上取得成功吗？

Uri Levine: And the assets could be technology that you already developed, could be the team that you already built, could be the know-how that you have in that specific market that gives you a significant advantage.

Uri Levine：资产可以是您已经开发的技术，可以是您已经建立的团队，可以是您在特定市场中拥有的为您带来显着优势的专业知识。

And if any of those is really, really significant, then it's possible that you want to pivot.

如果其中任何一个确实非常重要，那么您可能想要转变。

Pivot basically say major fuck up, all of our underlining assumptions have gone.

枢轴基本上说主要搞砸了，我们所有的强调假设都消失了。

Uri Levine: And because everything else, if it's not, then that's part of the journey of failure.

尤里·莱文：因为其他一切，如果不是，那就是失败之旅的一部分。

If you'll tell me, "Oh, we tried this product or we tried this feature and didn't work," then this journey of fail.

如果你告诉我，“哦，我们尝试过这个产品，或者我们尝试过这个功能但没有成功”，那么这个旅程就失败了。

This is going to be your journey.

这将是你的旅程。

Uri Levine: But once you figure out product market fit, if it disappears, then pivot is one option, shutting down is another option.

Uri Levine：但是一旦你弄清楚产品的市场契合度，如果它消失了，那么转向是一种选择，关闭是另一种选择。

And for shutting down, there are two things that you need to ask yourself.

对于关闭，您需要问自己两件事。

Do I have the energy to keep on going?

我还有动力继续走下去吗？

Maybe you basically say, "I spent the last seven years trying to do that and now it's gone and you know what?

也许你基本上会说，“过去七年我一直在努力做到这一点，但现在它消失了，你知道吗？

I need some time off."

我需要休息一下。”

Uri Levine: And the other one is that do I really have the assets to become dramatically successful?

尤里·莱文：另一个问题是我真的拥有取得巨大成功的资产吗？

Pontera is one of my startups that I started back in 2012.

Pontera 是我于 2012 年创办的初创公司之一。

And back then we called that FeeX.

当时我们称之为 FeeX。

And we were dealing with financial fees in Israel and we were actually pretty successful.

我们在以色列处理财务费用问题，实际上非常成功。

And then we decided, okay, wait a minute, Israel is a small market, let's move to the US.

然后我们决定，好吧，等一下，以色列是一个小市场，让我们转向美国。

And we moved to the US.

我们搬到了美国。

And one day the CEO came to me and said, "Look, we need to focus, I cannot do both, so we need to pivot." And we stopped the Israeli operation completely in order to focus all of our effort on the US operation.

有一天，首席执行官来找我说：“听着，我们需要集中精力，我不能两者兼得，所以我们需要调整方向。”我们完全停止了以色列的行动，以便将所有精力集中在美国的行动上。

And then we realized that the nature of the beast is different and therefore we need to re-look for product market fit.

然后我们意识到野兽的本质是不同的，因此我们需要重新寻找适合市场的产品。

And eventually we found that with the regulations of the Obama administration, and that was our product back in 2016 or 17.

最终我们发现，根据奥巴马政府的规定，这就是我们 2016 年或 17 年的产品。

Uri Levine: And then the administration have changed and now it's going to change again.

乌里·莱文：然后政府发生了变化，现在又要发生变化。

And they changed the regulation.

他们改变了规定。

And overnight we figured out that ...

一夜之间我们发现......

And we were actually on being a successful path.

我们实际上正走在一条成功的道路上。

And we had to reinvent ourself.

我们必须重塑自己。

Now, what we basically said is, "Look, we have the energy to keep on going, we have something, a thesis that we believe might be relevant for us.

现在，我们基本上说的是，“看，我们有能量继续前进，我们有一些东西，我们认为可能与我们相关的论文。

We have the technology that can serve the thesis and we have enough cash to try it out." And we went back to the board and we offered them two options.

我们拥有可以为论文服务的技术，并且我们有足够的现金来尝试。”我们回到董事会并为他们提供了两种选择。

Number one, we give you your money back.

第一，我们退还您的钱。

And number two, this is what we're going to try.

第二，这就是我们要尝试的。

Uri Levine: And the interesting part is that investors don't want their money back.

Uri Levine：有趣的是，投资者不希望收回他们的钱。

They did not invest in order to have their money back, they invest in order to make a significant impact.

他们投资不是为了收回资金，而是为了产生重大影响。

And obviously they don't want to go back to their investors and tell them, guess what?

显然他们不想回到投资者那里告诉他们，你猜怎么着？

And so we had all the support to keep trying something else.

所以我们得到了所有的支持来继续尝试其他东西。

And since 2018, we are actually being pretty successful on this path.

自 2018 年以来，我们在这条道路上实际上取得了相当成功。

And all of a sudden, company is 12 years old, and we pivoted twice.

突然间，公司已经成立 12 年了，我们经历了两次转型。

And now we are end of the day helping Americans to retire richer.

现在，我们最终要帮助美国人更加富有地退休。

Helping financial advisors to support you on your 401k plans, on retirement saving plans.

帮助财务顾问为您的 401k 计划和退休储蓄计划提供支持。

And the result is pretty significant.

结果非常显着。

So this company is on a path of being successful, but we almost died twice.

所以这家公司正在走向成功，但我们有两次差点丧命。

Uri Levine: And look, all the CEOs in the world, if you would ask them, have you nearly died already?

Uri Levine：看看，世界上所有的首席执行官，如果你问他们，你已经快死了吗？

And they will tell you yes.

他们会告诉你是的。

And then the next question would be how many times?

然后下一个问题是多少次？

And they will tell you multiple times.

他们会多次告诉你。

And if they're not, that means that they're simply too early on their journey.

如果他们没有，那就意味着他们的旅程还为时过早。

Lenny Rachitsky: That's such an important point.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是非常重要的一点。

It came up, I just had Toby from Shopify on the podcast, and he said exactly the same thing.

事情发生了，我刚刚在播客上听到了 Shopify 的托比，他说了完全相同的话。

That just like the number of times Shopify almost died, people have no idea.

就像 Shopify 差点死掉的次数一样，人们不知道。

It's important to know, that's very common.

重要的是要知道，这很常见。

Uri Levine: Yeah.

尤里·莱文：是的。

And I'm a good friend with Harley Finkelstein, the president of Shopify, and he told ...

我是 Shopify 总裁哈雷·芬克尔斯坦 (Harley Finkelstein) 的好朋友，他告诉...

we exchanged horror stories about nearly dying.

我们交换了关于濒临死亡的恐怖故事。

And we are still here.

我们还在这里。

Lenny Rachitsky: Just never give up.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：永远不要放弃。

To double down on this pivot point real quick.

快速地在这个枢轴点上加倍努力。

So the things you should look at to help you decide if a pivot is a good idea, you shared, you have some tech that might be helpful in this new direction, you have a team that's really well suited to this new idea or you have some knowledge.

因此，您应该考虑的事情可以帮助您决定转向是否是一个好主意，您分享了，您拥有一些可能对这个新方向有帮助的技术，您有一个非常适合这个新想法的团队，或者您有一些知识。

Is there anything else, just like what's that list of things you should look at to see, to come up with ideas/decide this is a good idea for us to pursue?

还有其他什么吗，就像您应该查看的清单是什么，以提出想法/决定这是我们追求的好主意？

Uri Levine: So going back to basic, but now you are already running, so you probably have already validated the problem or the value proposition.

Uri Levine：回到基础，但现在你已经在运行了，所以你可能已经验证了问题或价值主张。

About pivoting, so when you start you think that, okay, I have this brilliant idea.

关于转向，所以当你开始时，你会想，好吧，我有这个绝妙的主意。

And what I really encourage people is first of all, go and validate the problem, speak with people, understand their perception of the problem.

我真正鼓励人们首先去验证问题，与人们交谈，了解他们对问题的看法。

And only then start to think about the solution.

然后才开始思考解决方案。

Now, this is still not the case in most startups.

现在，大多数初创公司的情况仍然不是这样。

And this is fall in love with the problem, not the solution.

这是爱上问题，而不是解决方案。

And for a few reasons, and maybe number one reason is, look, entrepreneurship journey is about creating value.

出于几个原因，也许第一个原因是，创业之旅就是创造价值。

Simplest way to create value, seel a product, that's it, simplest way.

创造价值的最简单方法，查看产品，就是这样，最简单的方法。

And I like simple.

而且我喜欢简单。

Uri Levine: But then in addition, when you focus on the problem, then the problem is going to serve as the north star of your journey.

乌里·莱文：但除此之外，当你专注于问题时，问题将成为你旅程中的北极星。

And when you have a north star, you're going to make less deviation from the course and increase the likelihood of being successful.

当你拥有北极星时，你就会减少偏离路线的机会，并增加成功的可能性。

But by and large, your story is going to be way more compelling.

但总的来说，你的故事将会更加引人注目。

If we will be here in 2007, and I will tell you that I'm going to build an AI crowdsourced based navigation system, you're going to say, "Oh yeah, very interesting," But you don't care.

如果我们在 2007 年在这里，我会告诉你我将建立一个基于人工智能众包的导航系统，你会说，“哦，是的，非常有趣，”但你不在乎。

If I will tell you I'm going to help you to avoid traffic jams, then you do care.

如果我告诉你我会帮助你避免交通堵塞，那么你就会在乎。

When your customer care, they want you to be successful.

当您的客户关心时，他们希望您成功。

And when they want you to be successful, they are going to help you to become successful.

当他们希望你成功时，他们就会帮助你成功。

Uri Levine: And so this is going back into pivoting the same way, first of all, validate what's your value proposition, what's the problem you're going to solve.

Uri Levine：所以这又回到以同样的方式进行调整，首先，验证你的价值主张是什么，你要解决的问题是什么。

Now, in most cases you already validated that because you in the market for some years and you had dialogues with customers and you already realized that.

现在，在大多数情况下，您已经验证了这一点，因为您在市场上工作了几年，并且与客户进行了对话，并且您已经意识到了这一点。

And maybe you already told yourself, you know what?

也许你已经告诉自己，你知道吗？

In my next startup this is what I'm going to do.

在我的下一次创业中，这就是我要做的事情。

And so it's possible that you already validated.

所以您可能已经验证了。

And if you haven't, then this is exactly the time to revalidate the value proposition.

如果您还没有，那么现在正是重新验证价值主张的时候了。

So this is the first thing that you need to do.

所以这是您需要做的第一件事。

Uri Levine: And then the second thing that you want to do is ask yourself, do I really have a significant advantage here?

Uri Levine：然后你要做的第二件事是问自己，我在这里真的有显着的优势吗？

Do I really have the team, the technology, the know-how to make a leap from here and really lead the market?

我真的拥有团队、技术和知识来实现​​跨越并真正引领市场吗？

Uri Levine: And then the other part of it is, okay, do I have the energy and the passion to go and do it all over again?

尤里·莱文（Uri Levine）：然后，问题的另一部分是，好吧，我是否有精力和热情重新开始？

Because this is going back to square one, trying to figure out product market fit and then figuring out business model and then figuring out growth and so forth.

因为这又回到了第一步，试图找出产品市场契合度，然后找出商业模式，然后找出增长等等。

So the entire journey from scratch.

于是整个旅程从头开始。

And if you answer yes to all of those, so you have the very significant value proposition and you think that you have something that is going to accelerate you dramatically because of the know-how, the technology, the team, then the next thing that you're going to do is validate it with the team.

如果你对所有这些问题的回答都是肯定的，那么你就有了非常重要的价值主张，并且你认为你拥有一些能够因为专业知识、技术和团队而显着加速你的东西，那么你接下来要做的就是与团队一起验证它。

Uri Levine: In your underlining assumptions the team is going to continue.

Uri Levine：在你强调的假设中，团队将继续前进。

Maybe, maybe not.

也许，也许不是。

This is exactly the time that you would like to validate that.

这正是您想要验证这一点的时间。

And the way that you're going to validate that is you basically say to them, "Guess what?

你要验证这一点的方式基本上就是对他们说：“你猜怎么着？

We are fucked.

我们完蛋了。

Our underlining assumptions are no longer valid.

我们的基本假设不再有效。

And this is our new opportunity and we can go this path or we can die." And let's see what people, if they believe in the new path, then this is a good idea.

这是我们的新机遇，我们要么走这条路，要么死。”让我们看看哪些人，如果他们相信新道路，那么这是一个好主意。

Uri Levine: In many cases, by the way, it's possible that the new path will come from them.

Uri Levine：顺便说一句，在很多情况下，新的道路可能来自他们。

They're the one that are closer to the customers, they're the one that are closer to the technology.

他们是最接近客户的人，他们是最接近技术的人。

They're the one that are probably know better than you if this new path is actually valid or not.

他们可能比你更了解这条新路径是否真的有效。

And if this is the case, then you go and do it.

如果是这种情况，那么你就去做吧。

Uri Levine: The last one that you want to ...

尤里·莱文：你想要的最后一个......

Look, even if you don't have the money for it, let's say that you don't have plenty of cash in the bank, go back to the investors and go back to raise capital because now you actually have a very significant advantage.

你看，即使你没有钱，假设你银行里没有足够的现金，回到投资者那里去筹集资金，因为现在你实际上有一个非常显着的优势。

You already have a technology, you already have a team, you already have the know-how, you are already second time entrepreneur because pivot is like restarting from scratch or you are already multiple times entrepreneur, so you are way more attractive today than when you were a few years back.

你已经拥有了一项技术，你已经拥有了一个团队，你已经拥有了专业知识，你已经是第二次创业者了，因为转型就像从头开始，或者你已经是多次创业者了，所以你今天比几年前更具吸引力。

And so go back to existing investors and new investors and raise more capital for this new journey.

因此，回到现有投资者和新投资者身上，为这个新的旅程筹集更多资金。

Lenny Rachitsky: I like this algorithm.

Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢这个算法。

I was writing it down as you're talking.

你说话的时候我已经把它写下来了。

So basically when you're deciding to pivot, looking for opportunities to pivot, step one is find a problem, validate there's a problem that exists.

所以基本上，当你决定转型、寻找转型机会时，第一步就是发现问题，验证是否存在问题。

Step two is figure out if you have the tech, team or know-how that gives you an advantage to win at solving this problem.

第二步是弄清楚您是否拥有能够为您解决此问题提供优势的技术、团队或专业知识。

Then ask yourself, do you have the passion and energy to be spending your life and the many number of years attacking this problem?

然后问问自己，你是否有热情和精力花费一生和多年的时间来解决这个问题？

Then validate your team, wants to also go after this problem.

然后验证你的团队，也想解决这个问题。

And then check with your investors and try to get money to fund you going after this problem.

然后与你的投资者核实并尝试筹集资金来资助你解决这个问题。

Uri Levine: And I like this order now.

Uri Levine：我现在喜欢这个订单。

Some people will tell you, "Oh, my order is different." And I'm not saying if this is the right thing or the wrong thing, but I think that ...

有些人会告诉你，“哦，我的顺序不一样。”我并不是说这是正确的事情还是错误的事情，但我认为......

One of the reason that I say this is the order is, look, when you validate the problem and the value proposition, even if you don't have the passion, if it's been validated, your passion will be built up.

我说这个顺序的原因之一是，看，当你验证问题和价值主张时，即使你没有激情，如果它得到验证，你的激情就会增强。

Because then you speak with potential customers and you tell them, "This is what I'm thinking of doing and this is how it's going to help you." They will say, "Yes, I need that.

因为然后你与潜在客户交谈并告诉他们，“这就是我正在考虑做的事情，这就是它将如何帮助你。”他们会说：“是的，我需要那个。

Can you do it tomorrow?" Then all of a sudden you get excited about it.

明天可以做吗？”然后突然间你就会对此感到兴奋。

Uri Levine: And usually when I speak about consumers then I tell people, look, when you go and speak about the problem, if the answer that you are going to get is, "Oh, I know someone that had this problem," don't follow this path.

乌里·莱文：通常当我谈论消费者时，我会告诉人们，看，当你去谈论问题时，如果你得到的答案是，“哦，我知道有人遇到了这个问题”，请不要走这条路。

If they will tell you, "No, no, no, no, no, this is not the problem, the problem is," and they will give you their version of the problem, this is where you want to follow that.

如果他们会告诉你，“不，不，不，不，不，这不是问题，问题是”，他们会给你他们的问题版本，这就是你想要遵循的地方。

To a certain point, if you speak with enough people, you would have the sense that you are being sent on a mission.

在某种程度上，如果你与足够多的人交谈，你就会感觉到你正在被派去执行一项任务。

And this is where your passion is going to go through the roof.

这就是你的热情将达到顶峰的地方。

And so don't start with the passion, let the passion be built.

因此，不要从激情开始，而是要让激情逐渐建立起来。

Lenny Rachitsky: I totally feel that.

Lenny Rachitsky：我完全有这种感觉。

I have friends who started this company Zip, which is a procurement, a really good procurement platform.

我有朋友开了一家Zip公司，这是一家采购公司，一个非常好的采购平台。

And I don't know if they were growing up wanting to be building a business that helps procurement experiences be better.

我不知道他们在成长过程中是否希望建立一家能够帮助改善采购体验的企业。

And they pivoted six times before they picked this idea.

在选择这个想法之前，他们进行了六次调整。

But through that, I think found how big of a deal this was and how much happier people can be in their day to day with a better product and got excited about it.

但通过这一过程，我认为这是一件多么重要的事情，人们可以通过更好的产品在日常生活中感到多么快乐，并对此感到兴奋。

And now that's what they're building.

现在这就是他们正在建造的。

Uri Levine: The best thing happen when you try to validate a problem is that you speak with someone and they will tell you in a very strong emotional word, "I hate that," or something like that.

Uri Levine：当你试图验证一个问题时，最好的事情就是你与某人交谈，他们会用非常强烈的情感词告诉你，“我讨厌那个”，或类似的话。

Yeah, this is exactly what you're looking for, you're looking for something that people will engage emotionally and with strong emotions.

是的，这正是您所寻找的，您正在寻找人们会投入情感并带有强烈情感的东西。

Lenny Rachitsky: Someone once described it as you want to look for their pupils to dilate when you tell them, when you talk about this problem.

Lenny Rachitsky：有人曾经描述过，当你告诉他们、谈论这个问题时，你希望看到他们的瞳孔放大。

Lenny Rachitsky: There was a quote I wrote down as you were talking earlier that I think is really great.

Lenny Rachitsky：在您之前讲话时，我写下了一句话，我认为这句话非常棒。

It's kind of a framework for ...

这是一个框架......

the way you used it is to help you pick which direction to go.

你使用它的方式是帮助你选择前进的方向。

But I think it's a useful framework in general for companies and founders is ask yourself, if I were to start today, what would I have done and what would I do if I were to start this company again today?

但我认为这对于公司和创始人来说是一个有用的框架，问问自己，如果我今天开始，我会做什么，如果我今天再次创办这家公司，我会做什么？

I think that's such a powerful thing to always think about even when everything's going great.

我认为即使一切进展顺利，也要始终思考这一点，这是一件非常强大的事情。

Uri Levine: I agree.

尤里·莱文：我同意。

Today is the first day of the rest of your life.

今天是你余生的第一天。

And this is pretty much everything in your life.

这几乎就是你生活中的一切。

So ask yourself, knowing what I know today, would I do something different?

所以问问自己，知道我今天所知道的，我会做一些不同的事情吗？

Now, if the answer is yes, then do something different today.

现在，如果答案是肯定的，那么今天就做一些不同的事情。

Don't wait until next life or next company or next relationship or next something.

不要等到下一个生命、下一个公司、下一段关系或下一个事情。

If you basically know today that you should be doing something different, then change.

如果你今天基本上知道你应该做一些不同的事情，那就改变吧。

Lenny Rachitsky: I think that's extra important because somebody will do that probably and compete with you and put you out of business, and it's better that you do that first.

Lenny Rachitsky：我认为这特别重要，因为有人可能会这样做，并与你竞争，让你破产，你最好先这样做。

Uri Levine: But this is true for everything in your life.

尤里·莱文：但这对于你生活中的一切都是如此。

Look, if you are working in a place and you are not happy and you suffer there, then I would say ...

听着，如果你在一个地方工作，但你不快乐并且在那里受苦，那么我会说......

The guidance that I give to my children is very simple.

我给孩子的指导非常简单。

If you're not happy at your working place, then ask yourself, is there something that I can do to change that?

如果你对自己的工作场所不满意，那么问问自己，我可以做些什么来改变这种状况吗？

Then try to change that for the next three month.

然后尝试在接下来的三个月内改变这一点。

If you're unable to change that, then leave.

如果你无法改变这一点，那就离开吧。

You don't deserve to be unhappy.

你不应该不快乐。

And you need to control your own destiny.

而且你需要掌控自己的命运。

For me, quitting your job, do you know what it means?

对我来说，辞职，你知道这意味着什么吗？

You fire your own job boss, that's what it means.

你解雇了自己的老板，就是这个意思。

You fire your boss by quitting, that's it.

你通过辞职来解雇你的老板，就是这样。

Lenny Rachitsky: That's empowering, I like that.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是一种力量，我喜欢这样。

Okay, just, okay, two more questions.

好吧，好吧，还有两个问题。

One is I want to close the loop on the Waze story.

一是我想结束位智故事的循环。

So you talked about how Google launched, a competitor basically, free turn-by-turn directions, that was the business you were building and you essentially had to change direction.

所以你谈到了谷歌是如何推出的，基本上是一个竞争对手，免费的路线导航，这就是你正在建立的业务，你基本上必须改变方向。

What did you actually do, how did you decide and realize this?

你实际上做了什么，你是如何决定并意识到这一点的？

Uri Levine: We didn't change.

尤里·莱文：我们没有改变。

Back in 2010, we were simply not good enough, we were still in the product market fit iterations and iterations and iterations, and we were not good enough.

早在2010年，我们根本就不够好，我们还在产品市场契合迭代、迭代、迭代中，我们还不够好。

And we kept on building and we kept on iterating and iterating and iterating.

我们不断构建，不断迭代、迭代、迭代。

But we almost ran out of cash.

但我们的现金几乎用完了。

And then we had this lucky day that Microsoft decided to invest, and so did Qualcomm.

然后我们迎来了这个幸运的一天，微软决定投资，高通也是如此。

The funny part is that I had this dialogue with Qualcomm Ventures and they told me that they're not sure why is that important for them.

有趣的是，我与高通风险投资公司进行了对话，他们告诉我，他们不确定为什么这对他们来说很重要。

And I read someplace that they did not invest at Twitter at $55 million.

我在某个地方读到，他们没有向 Twitter 投资 5500 万美元。

And this is exactly what I told them, "May I remind you that you did not invest in Twitter at $55 million valuation.

这正是我告诉他们的：“我想提醒您一下，您并没有以 5500 万美元的估值投资 Twitter。

This is where Waze is today." And obviously different story, but that was the fear of missing out, the FOMO was

这就是位智今天所处的位置。”显然是不同的故事，但那是对错过的恐惧，FOMO

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, I was going to say, good FOMO.

Lenny Rachitsky：是的，我想说，很好的 FOMO。

Uri Levine: But the result was that we had enough cash to keep on trying and keep on iterating and iterating and iterating.

Uri Levine：但结果是我们有足够的现金来继续尝试、不断迭代、迭代、迭代。

And eventually we ended up to be very successful.

最终我们取得了非常成功的结果。

So that was not about pivoting or changing directions or doing anything dramatic.

所以这并不是要调整方向、改变方向或做任何戏剧性的事情。

We basically say, okay, we will need to reduce costs dramatically.

我们基本上会说，好吧，我们需要大幅降低成本。

We decided that we are not ...

我们决定不...

By the way, what we did is we reduced the salary of the management only.

顺便说一句，我们所做的只是减少了管理层的工资。

And to a certain extent I would say people didn't even know.

在某种程度上，我想说人们甚至不知道。

We decided in the management meeting that this is what we're going to do.

我们在管理会议上决定这就是我们要做的事情。

And if push come to shovel, then we will do the next step and the next step and the next step.

如果事情发展到了铲子的地步，那么我们将进行下一步、下一步、再下一步。

But we were eventually able to raise capital.

但我们最终能够筹集到资金。

So in that sense, the nearly die was a matter of state of mind, but we did not run out of cash, we raised capital just before that.

所以从这个意义上说，差点死掉是一个心态问题，但我们并没有用完现金，我们在那之前就筹集了资金。

Lenny Rachitsky: The story is actually really illustrative of a point I was thinking as you were talking, which is that product market fit crisis often also leads to a cash crisis from investors not wanting to invest.

Lenny Rachitsky：这个故事实际上很好地说明了我在你谈论时所思考的一个观点，即产品市场契合危机通常也会导致投资者不想投资而导致现金危机。

Uri Levine: In many cases, yes, in many cases.

尤里·莱文：在很多情况下，是的，在很多情况下。

Uri Levine: But to a certain extent I would say no. Product market fit basically means that you go back to square one.

尤里·莱文：但在某种程度上我会说不。产品市场契合度基本上意味着你回到了第一个方向。

The other alternative that you have, and by the way it's also valid, is if you are unable to convince your existing investors to reinvest in the company in order to build the new part of the journey, the new journey, then you know what?

你拥有的另一种选择，顺便说一句，它也是有效的，那就是，如果你无法说服现有投资者对公司进行再投资，以构建旅程的新部分，新的旅程，那么你知道吗？

Shut down the company and restart a new company that is doing exactly that.

关闭公司并重新启动一家正在做这件事的新公司。

And that's a bigger threat for investors because they are not part of the new journey.

这对投资者来说是一个更大的威胁，因为他们不是新旅程的一部分。

Now, they might want to say, "Oh, the company owns the IP." The know-how is the people, owned by the people, not the company.

现在，他们可能想说，“哦，公司拥有知识产权。”专有技术是人的，是人拥有的，而不是公司拥有的。

Lenny Rachitsky: How do you avoid the crisis?

莱尼·拉奇茨基：你如何避免危机？

A lot this advice is here, you have a crisis, here's how to deal with it.

这里有很多这样的建议，你遇到了危机，这里是如何处理它的。

Any advice for how to avoid falling into a crisis as a founder?

作为创始人如何避免陷入危机，有什么建议吗？

Uri Levine: Number one answer is no. Don't worry, you will face crisis.

尤里·莱文：第一个答案是否定的。别担心，你会面临危机。

And if you worry, you're still going to face crisis.

如果你担心，你仍然会面临危机。

Number two is that, look, it's way easier to deal with a crisis if you have plenty of cash in the bank.

第二点是，如果你银行里有足够的现金，那么应对危机就会容易得多。

So if you can raise capital and maintain higher level of cash in the bank, it will help you to go through the next crisis, but it's not going to avoid it.

因此，如果你能够筹集资金并在银行保持较高的现金水平，这将帮助你度过下一次危机，但它并不能避免它。

So always be funded is a good advice.

因此，始终获得资助是一个很好的建议。

But in general, look, you do not prepare for the next crisis because you don't know what kind of crisis it's going to be next.

但总的来说，你没有为下一场危机做好准备，因为你不知道下一场危机会是什么样。

And you can assume that there will be the next crisis.

你可以假设将会出现下一次危机。

Trust me, there will be the next crisis.

相信我，下一场危机将会到来。

And then the most important part is that you analyze that fast and then you act fast.

最重要的是你要快速分析，然后快速采取行动。

But you cannot prepare for it because you don't know where it's going to come from.

但你无法为此做好准备，因为你不知道它会从哪里来。

And this is really, really important.

这真的非常非常重要。

The best preparation is that if you have plenty of cash.

最好的准备是如果你有足够的现金。

In general I would say if you have plenty of cash, then this is going to help you for many things.

总的来说，我会说如果你有足够的现金，那么这将对你有很多帮助。

Lenny Rachitsky: When you say plenty of cash, do you have any advice, kind of common advice of have 18 months of runway, is there anything there you'd recommend for founders?

Lenny Rachitsky：当你说有足够的现金时，你有什么建议吗？常见的建议是拥有 18 个月的跑道，你有什么建议给创始人吗？

Uri Levine: And this is really depending on the CEOs and their risk attitude.

Uri Levine：这实际上取决于首席执行官及其风险态度。

Some of my CEOs prefer to have two to three years of run rate.

我的一些首席执行官更喜欢有两到三年的运行率。

They basically say, "This is my comfort zone.

他们基本上说，“这是我的舒适区。

I know that I can restart if I need to.

我知道如果需要的话我可以重新启动。

I know that I can suffer major crisis.

我知道我可能会遭受重大危机。

I know that I can go into new direction if I want to.

我知道如果我愿意的话我可以进入新的方向。

I know that I can expand and try something completely different if I want to." And this is not necessarily as a result of a crisis.

我知道如果我愿意的话，我可以扩展并尝试一些完全不同的东西。”这并不一定是危机的结果。

So maybe you basically say here is an opportunity and I have the cash to do that.

所以也许你基本上会说这是一个机会，而且我有足够的现金来做到这一点。

Uri Levine: My general rule will be around 18 month.

Uri Levine：我的一般规则是 18 个月左右。

Are you okay with 12 month?

12个月还好吗？

Yeah, if you risk taker, bigger risk taker then you can survive with 12 month.

是的，如果你敢于冒险，敢于承担更大的风险，那么你可以存活 12 个月。

But the challenge is that, look, if you have shorter period of time, then you don't have enough time to execute, you need to focus on fundraising all the time.

但挑战在于，你看，如果你的时间较短，那么你就没有足够的时间来执行，你需要一直专注于筹款。

And you want to focus on creating value and not just bringing cash into the company.

你希望专注于创造价值，而不仅仅是为公司带来现金。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。

Obviously the downside of raising more runway is you're giving away more of your company, but it's always this trade off, how much to sell, how money to get.

显然，筹集更多资金的缺点是你会放弃更多的公司股份，但总是要进行权衡，卖多少，赚多少钱。

Being a founder, what a tough gig.

作为一名创始人，这是多么艰难的工作啊。

And I'm going to come back to this quote you had that I shared at the beginning of the podcast, which is building a startup is a journey from one crisis to the next.

我将回到我在播客开头分享的这句话，即建立一家初创公司是从一次危机到下一次危机的旅程。

Uri Levine: Yeah.

尤里·莱文：是的。

It goes back into how ...

这又回到了如何...

the other three dimensions of a startup, it's a roller coaster journey with ups and downs and ups and downs, and it's a journey of failures because we are trying to build something new that no one did before so we tried multiple things.

创业公司的其他三个维度，这是一段跌宕起伏、跌宕起伏的过山车之旅，也是一段失败的旅程，因为我们正在尝试打造一些以前没有人做过的新东西，所以我们尝试了多种事情。

For that, Albert Einstein used to say that if you haven't failed that because you haven't tried new things before.

为此，阿尔伯特·爱因斯坦曾经说过，如果你没有失败，那是因为你以前没有尝试过新事物。

And it's a long journey, it's a very long journey.

这是一个漫长的旅程，这是一个非常漫长的旅程。

In particular, the longest part is until you figure out product market fit.

特别是，最长的部分是直到你弄清楚产品市场契合度为止。

And now I add the fourth dimension of that, that this is a journey from one crisis to the next one.

现在我添加第四个维度，即这是从一场危机到下一场危机的旅程。

Lenny Rachitsky: How many companies have you started, 10 last time I saw?

Lenny Rachitsky：你创办了多少家公司，上次我看到的时候有 10 家？

Uri Levine: Yeah, about, a little bit more than that, yeah.

Uri Levine：是的，大约，比这多一点，是的。

Uri Levine: Not all of them are going to be successful, but most of them are.

尤里·莱文（Uri Levine）：并非所有人都会成功，但大多数都会成功。

Lenny Rachitsky: In some form.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：以某种形式。

And you just keep doing it.

而你就继续这样做。

You're a glutton for crisis is what I'm hearing here.

我在这里听到的就是你对危机的贪婪。

Uri Levine: I'm not here for the crisis, I'm there for the value creation.

Uri Levine：我来这里不是为了应对危机，而是为了创造价值。

Lenny Rachitsky: Uri, is there anything else that you wanted to share that you think might be helpful to get into before we wrap up?

Lenny Rachitsky：Uri，在我们结束之前，您还有什么想分享的，您认为可能有帮助的吗？

Uri Levine: I really like this podcast, I really like it.

Uri Levine：我真的很喜欢这个播客，我真的很喜欢。

Uri Levine: And hopefully, in my mind, this is my mindset of a teacher, my destiny is about value creation, and if this podcast or this book, this one, can help people to become more successful, then I fulfill my destiny.

乌里·莱文：希望在我看来，这就是我作为一名教师的心态，我的命运是关于价值创造的，如果这个播客或这本书，这本书，可以帮助人们变得更加成功，那么我就实现了我的命运。

Lenny Rachitsky: Uri, I'm so delighted to be helping you fulfill your destiny.

Lenny Rachitsky：Uri，我很高兴能够帮助你实现你的命运。

Two final questions.

最后两个问题。

Where can folks find the book?

大家在哪里可以找到这本书呢？

When is it for sale?

什么时候出售？

And then just how can listeners be useful to you?

那么听众如何对你有用呢？

Uri Levine: The book is going to be published in about a month from now.

Uri Levine：这本书大约一个月后就会出版。

And it is already available for pre-orders on Amazon, but later on it will be on bookstores throughout the US and Canada and so forth.

它已经可以在亚马逊上预订，但稍后将在美国和加拿大等地的书店上架。

Lenny Rachitsky: What's the date it'll be published because we're recording this ...

Lenny Rachitsky：它的发布日期是哪一天，因为我们正在录制这个......

Maybe it's coming out around the time we publish this.

也许它会在我们发布这篇文章的时候发布。

So what's the date?

那么日期是哪一天呢？

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, great.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的，太好了。

I think this is coming out right around there, so perfect timing.

我认为这件事就在那里出现，时机非常完美。

Uri Levine: So perfect timing.

尤里·莱文（Uri Levine）：时机太完美了。

And you can follow me on LinkedIn or you can go to my website, urilevine.com.

您可以在 LinkedIn 上关注我，也可以访问我的网站 urilevine.com。

And I want you to read the book.

我想让你读这本书。

End of the day, you asked me at the beginning what do I want to accomplish?

一天结束时，您一开始就问我想要完成什么？

Do I want people to buy the book or read the book?

我希望人们购买这本书或阅读这本书吗？

And I told you, "Look, everything that I'm trying to do in my life is about doing good and doing well." So buying the book is the doing well part of it and reading the book is the doing good part of it.

我告诉你，“看，我一生中想做的每一件事都是为了做好事，做得很好。”因此，买书是做好事的一部分，而读书则是做好事的一部分。

And I want you to read the book.

我想让你读这本书。

Lenny Rachitsky: That's so good.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：那太好了。

Uri, thank you so much for being here.

乌里，非常感谢你来到这里。

Bye everyone.: Thank you so much for listening.

大家再见：非常感谢您的聆听。

If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.

如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.

您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。