A founder’s guide to crisis management | Uri Levine (Waze co-founder, serial entrepreneur)

Lenny Rachitsky: You've co-founded 10 different companies.

Lenny Rachitsky：您与他人共同创立了 10 家不同的公司。

You've been on the board of 20.

您已加入 20 人的董事会。

You've also built two unicorns including Waze.

您还创建了两家独角兽公司，其中包括 Waze。

The biggest startup lesson you seem to have taken out of that is to-

您似乎从中学到的最大的创业教训是——

Uri Levine: Fall in love, fall in love, fall in love, fall in love with the problem, and then actually what you're trying to do is engage everyone else to fall in love with the same problem, to go into this journey, into this path and follow your leadership there.

尤里·莱文（Uri Levine）：坠入爱河，坠入爱河，坠入爱河，爱上这个问题，然后实际上你要做的就是让其他人爱上同样的问题，进入这个旅程，进入这条道路并跟随你的领导。

Lenny Rachitsky: Anything you wanted to share around hiring and firing?

Lenny Rachitsky：关于招聘和解雇您有什么想分享的吗？

Uri Levine: Every time that you hire someone new, mark your calendars for 30 days down the road and ask yourself one question, knowing what I know today, would I hire this person?

Uri Levine：每次你雇用新人时，请在你的日历上标记 30 天的时间，并问自己一个问题，知道我今天所知道的情况，我会雇用这个人吗？

If the answer is no, fire them immediately.

如果答案是否定的，请立即解雇他们。

Lenny Rachitsky: Let's actually talk about fundraising.

Lenny Rachitsky：我们实际上来谈谈筹款问题。

Uri Levine: Most people are missing the most important slide of their presentation is the first slide.

Uri Levine：大多数人都忽略了演示文稿中最重要的幻灯片是第一张幻灯片。

This slide is going to be presented for the longest period of time.

这张幻灯片将呈现最长的一段时间。

This is the place that you're going to put your strongest point.

这是你要发挥自己最强点的地方。

Now the second most important slide is the last one.

现在第二重要的幻灯片是最后一张。

Lenny Rachitsky: Today my guest is Uri Levine.

Lenny Rachitsky：今天我的客人是 Uri Levine。

Uri is the co-founder of Waze and nine other companies.

Uri 是 Waze 和其他九家公司的联合创始人。

He sold two companies for over a billion dollars.

他以超过十亿美元的价格出售了两家公司。

He's also been on 20 different startup boards, including a dozen he's still currently on.

他还曾在 20 个不同的初创公司董事会任职，其中包括他目前仍在的十几个董事会。

He's also advised over 50 founders and startups over his career.

在他的职业生涯中，他还为 50 多家创始人和初创公司提供了建议。

More recently, he wrote a book that summarizes all of his advice for founders called Fall in Love with the Problem, Not the Solution, A Handbook for Entrepreneurs.

最近，他写了一本书，总结了他对创始人的所有建议，名为《爱上问题，而不是解决方案，企业家手册》。

In the foreword to the book, Steve Wozniak said, "This book will change your life and become your Bible if you are an entrepreneur," and I cannot disagree with that.

史蒂夫·沃兹尼亚克在书的前言中说：“如果你是一名企业家，这本书将改变你的生活，并成为你的圣经”，我不能不同意这一点。

This book is very tactical with amazing stories and walks you through the ideation phase all the way to exiting your company.

这本书非常具有策略性，有精彩的故事，将引导您完成构思阶段直至退出公司。

Lenny Rachitsky: In my conversation with Uri, we chat about many of my favorite chapters, including why falling in love with the problem is so important, how to find product market fit, a really clever tactic for firing people who aren't a fit for your company, a ton of really genius tactical advice for improving your fundraising pitch and so much more.

Lenny Rachitsky：在我与 Uri 的谈话中，我们讨论了许多我最喜欢的章节，包括为什么爱上这个问题如此重要、如何找到适合市场的产品、解雇不适合你公司的人的真正聪明的策略、大量关于改善你的筹款宣传的真正天才的战术建议等等。

With that, I bring you Uri Levine, and if you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube.

接下来，我为您带来 Uri Levine，如果您喜欢这个播客，请不要忘记订阅并在您最喜欢的播客应用程序或 YouTube 中关注它。

It's the best way to avoid missing future episodes and it helps the podcast tremendously.

这是避免错过未来剧集的最佳方式，并且对播客有很大帮助。

Uri, thank you so much for being here.

乌里，非常感谢你来到这里。

Welcome to the podcast.

欢迎来到播客。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, so here's what I've gathered about your career, and let me know if I've missed anything.

Lenny Rachitsky：好的，这就是我收集到的关于你职业生涯的信息，如果我遗漏了什么，请告诉我。

You've co-founded 10 different companies, including four you're still operating.

您与他人共同创立了 10 家不同的公司，其中有 4 家您仍在运营。

You've been on the board of 20 companies.

您曾在 20 家公司的董事会任职。

You've advised 50, maybe more, companies.

您已经为 50 家甚至更多的公司提供了建议。

You've also built two unicorns, including Waze, which you sold for over a billion dollars, which back then was an astronomical amount of money.

您还打造了两家独角兽公司，其中包括 Waze，您以超过 10 亿美元的价格将其出售，这在当时是一个天文数字。

It still is.

现在仍然如此。

So does that all sound right?

那么这一切听起来正确吗？

Is there anything big I missed about your career?

你的职业生涯中有什么值得我怀念的地方吗？

Lenny Rachitsky: I think what's really interesting to me is that from all of that experience, the biggest startup lesson you seem to have taken out of that is to fall in love with the problem.

Lenny Rachitsky：我认为对我来说真正有趣的是，从所有这些经历来看，你从中学到的最大的创业教训似乎就是爱上这个问题。

It's what your book is called.

你的书就是这么叫的。

You have a T-shirt that you're wearing right now that you wear on every podcast that says that exactly.

你现在穿着的一件 T 恤，在每个播客上都穿着，上面写着这句话。

Clearly this lesson has struck a big chord with you.

显然，这节课引起了您的强烈共鸣。

I'm curious if there's a moment where you realize that that's the core and that's something that every founder needs to get right.

我很好奇是否有一个时刻你会意识到这是核心，也是每个创始人都需要做对的事情。

Is there an aha moment or is it kind of this progressive like, "Oh, wow, maybe this is the secret."

是否有一个顿悟的时刻，或者是一种渐进式的感觉，比如“哦，哇，也许这就是秘密。”

Uri Levine: I'm not sure that this is a certain moment.

Uri Levine：我不确定现在是不是某个时刻。

I think that that was evolving over time and realizing that, look, at the end of the day, the entrepreneurship journey is about value creation.

我认为这种情况随着时间的推移而不断发展，并意识到，归根结底，创业之旅就是创造价值。

The simplest way to create value is solve a problem.

创造价值最简单的方法就是解决问题。

That's the simplest way.

这是最简单的方法。

And in my background, I'm an engineer always looking for the simplest way, and solve a problem is the simplest way, and so this is where fall in love with the problem coming from, and people occasionally would confuse the T-shirt with the book, and now the T-shirt is about 10 or even more years old and the book is only two years old, and so I was wearing those T-shirts for a long while before I wrote the book and when I wrote the book that was obvious that this is going to be the name of the book, but they are way more into that, right?

在我的背景中，我是一名工程师，总是在寻找最简单的方法，解决问题是最简单的方法，所以这就是爱上问题的来源，人们偶尔会把T恤和书混淆，现在T恤大约有10年甚至更多年的历史，而这本书只有两年的历史，所以在我写这本书之前我穿着这些T恤很长一段时间，当我写这本书时，很明显这将是这本书的名字书，但他们更感兴趣，对吧？

Uri Levine: So when you fall in love with the problem, then what happened is that the problem is going to serve as the North Star of your journey, and when you have a North Star, you're going to make less deviation from the course and you are way more likely to become successful.

乌里·莱文：所以，当你爱上这个问题时，就会发生的事情是，这个问题将成为你旅程中的北极星，而当你有了北极星时，你偏离路线的机会就会减少，成功的可能性也会大大增加。

But also the story that you are about to tell is way more compelling.

而且你即将讲述的故事也更加引人注目。

Just imagine that we will be here in 2007, just before I started Waze, and I will tell you I'm going to build an AI crowd-source based navigation system and you're going to say, "Oh, yeah, very interesting," but you don't care.

想象一下，我们将在 2007 年，就在我创建 Waze 之前，我会告诉你我将构建一个基于人工智能众包的导航系统，你会说，“哦，是的，非常有趣”，但你不在乎。

If I will tell you I'm going to help you to avoid traffic jams, then you do care, and when your customer cares, they want you to be successful, and when they want you to be successful, they are going to help you to become successful.

如果我告诉你我会帮助你避免交通堵塞，那么你就会关心，当你的客户关心时，他们希望你成功，当他们希望你成功时，他们会帮助你成功。

Uri Levine: And so in that sense, fall in love with the problem is really a key to increase the likelihood of being successful.

Uri Levine：从这个意义上说，爱上这个问题确实是增加成功可能性的关键。

So in general, all of my startups start with a problem.

所以总的来说，我所有的初创公司都是从一个问题开始的。

Think of a problem, a big problem, something that it's worth solving, something that the world will become a better place if you solve that and then ask yourself, so who has this problem?

想想一个问题，一个大问题，一些值得解决的问题，一些如果你解决了这个世界就会变得更美好的问题，然后问自己，谁有这个问题？

If you happen to be the only person on the planet with this problem, I can recommend you a therapist.

如果您恰好是地球上唯一有此问题的人，我可以为您推荐一位治疗师。

Don't build a startup.

不要建立一家初创公司。

It's way more expensive and takes way longer period of time to build a startup.

建立一家初创公司的成本要高得多，而且需要更长的时间。

But if a lot of people actually have this problem, what you really want to do next is go and speak with those people and understand their perception of the problem and only then start to build the solution.

但如果很多人确实遇到这个问题，那么接下来你真正想做的就是去与这些人交谈并了解他们对问题的看法，然后才开始构建解决方案。

If you follow this path and your solution works, it's guaranteed that you're creating value.

如果您遵循此路径并且您的解决方案有效，则可以保证您正在创造价值。

Uri Levine: If you start with a solution, you might be building something that no one cares and that's really frustrating.

Uri Levine：如果你从一个解决方案开始，你可能会构建一些没有人关心的东西，这真的很令人沮丧。

So fall in love with the problem.

所以爱上这个问题。

This is where you want to start.

这是您想要开始的地方。

Now this is really hard because I am getting tons of emails every week from entrepreneurs and they all start with what we are doing and I don't really care what you're doing.

现在这真的很难，因为我每周都会收到大量来自企业家的电子邮件，它们都以我们正在做的事情开始，而我并不真正关心你在做什么。

What I really care about is why you are doing that, and this is the problem that you solve or the value that you create or the value that you create for me.

我真正关心的是你为什么这样做，这就是你解决的问题或者你创造的价值或者你为我创造的价值。

This is what really matters, right?

这才是真正重要的，对吧？

And so if you start your story with, "Our company is," or, "Our system is," and in the recent year everything is, "Our AI system is," or, "Our AI company is." But generally speaking, if you start your story with that, you focus on your solution.

因此，如果你以“我们的公司是”或“我们的系统是”开始你的故事，那么最近一年一切都是“我们的人工智能系统是”或“我们的人工智能公司是”。但一般来说，如果你以此开始你的故事，你就会专注于你的解决方案。

If you start with the story with, "The problem we are solving is," Then you focus on the problem.

如果你以“我们正在解决的问题是”开始故事，那么你就会专注于问题。

If your story start with, "The value that we create for you is," then you focus on the user.

如果您的故事以“我们为您创造的价值是”开头，那么您就将重点放在用户身上。

The last two are way better than focus on the solution.

最后两个比专注于解决方案要好得多。

Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by Vanta.

Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 Vanta 为您带来。

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当谈到确保您的公司拥有一流的安全实践时，事情很快就会变得复杂。

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现在，您可以使用单一平台 Vanta 评估风险、确保客户信任并自动遵守 SOC 2、ISO 27001、HIPAA 等标准。

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Vanta 市场领先的信任管理平台可帮助您持续监控合规性以及报告和跟踪风险，此外您还可以通过使用 Vanta AI 完成安全调查问卷来节省时间。

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加入数千家使用 Vanta 自动化证据收集、统一风险管理和简化安全审查的全球公司行列。

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访问 Vanta.com/Lenny 即可享受 Vanta 立减 1,000 美元。

That's V-A-N-T-A.com/Lenny.

那是 V-A-N-T-A.com/Lenny。

Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by Mercury.

Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 Mercury 为您带来。

Mercury knows your financial operations are complex.

水星知道你的财务运作很复杂。

It doesn't have to be this way.

事情不必是这样的。

I've been a super happy customer of Mercury for over a year now and it's honestly hard to imagine a better online banking experience can exist.

我已经成为 Mercury 的超级客户一年多了，说实话，很难想象还会有更好的在线银行体验。

Most founders and finance teams have to couple together a patchwork of tools to reconcile transactions from different sources, work extra hard just to get a holistic view of cashflow and have maps to company priorities and struggle to get answers from platforms that all speak different languages.

大多数创始人和财务团队必须将各种工具组合在一起，以协调来自不同来源的交易，加倍努力才能获得现金流的整体视图，并绘制公司优先事项的地图，并且很难从使用不同语言的平台获得答案。

Mercury knows that there's an art to simplifying this complex patchwork.

水星知道简化这种复杂的拼凑是一门艺术。

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借助新的账单支付和会计功能，您可以更快地支付账单、控制公司支出并加快对账速度。

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最终结果是初创公司需要改变其运营方式所需的精确控制和重点。

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只需几分钟即可在 Mercury.com 上申请并加入超过 200,000 家像我这样雄心勃勃的初创公司，这些初创公司相信 Mercury 能够帮助他们发挥最佳水平。

Mercury, the art of simplified finances.

水星，简化财务的艺术。

Mercury is a financial technology company, not a bank.

Mercury 是一家金融科技公司，而不是银行。

Banking services provided by Choice Financial Group and Evolve Bank & Trust.

由 Choice Financial Group 和 Evolve Bank & Trust 提供的银行服务。

Members FDIC.

联邦存款保险公司成员。

Lenny Rachitsky: I want to follow a couple threads here because I imagine there's certain problems people fall in love with.

Lenny Rachitsky：我想在这里关注几个主题，因为我想人们会爱上某些问题。

"Amazing.

“太棒了。

I want to solve this very obscure problem for my family or a friend of mine," and then they realize this is never going to be a huge venture scale business, if that's a goal of theirs.

我想为我的家人或我的朋友解决这个非常晦涩的问题，”然后他们意识到，如果这是他们的目标，这永远不会成为一个巨大的风险规模业务。

You talked about like, make sure enough people have this problem versus just getting a therapist that's going to help you with this problem.

你谈到，确保有足够多的人遇到这个问题，而不是仅仅找一位能够帮助你解决这个问题的治疗师。

What are some signals and heuristics folks can use to help them understand this is a big enough problem that it's really worth their time?

人们可以使用哪些信号和启发法来帮助他们理解这是一个足够大的问题，值得他们花时间？

Uri Levine: So people ask me, "So you send me to speak with users.

Uri Levine：所以人们问我，“所以你派我去与用户交谈。

How many?" And I will tell them a hundred.

有多少？”我会告诉他们一百个。

You don't need a hundred, but the hundred basically say you need to get out of your comfort zone.

你不需要一百，但一百基本上说你需要走出你的舒适区。

It's not just your close friends and family that you need to discuss that.

您需要讨论的不仅仅是您的亲密朋友和家人。

You need to discuss that with people that you don't know.

您需要与您不认识的人讨论这个问题。

And usually what happen is, and the validation is in most cases is really clear, right?

通常发生的情况是，大多数情况下的验证都很清楚，对吧？

If you tell someone, "This is the problem I'm going to address," and they will tell you, "Oh, I know someone that has this problem," it's not a real problem.

如果你告诉某人，“这就是我要解决的问题”，他们会告诉你，“哦，我知道有人遇到这个问题”，这不是一个真正的问题。

If they will tell you, "No, no, no, no, no. This is not the problem.

如果他们会告诉你：“不，不，不，不，不。这不是问题。

The problem is," and they will give you their description of the problem.

问题是，”他们会给你问题的描述。

This is something that you really want to follow.

这是你真正想要遵循的事情。

So if you speak with a hundred people, but if you actually speak with 20 people that you don't know, you will get validated whether or not this problem is real or not.

因此，如果您与一百个人交谈，但如果您实际上与 20 个您不认识的人交谈，那么您将得到验证这个问题是否真实。

Uri Levine: And look, it's not the only way to become successful, right?

Uri Levine：你看，这并不是成功的唯一途径，对吧？

You look at one of the most successful products in the world, the iPhone, right?

你看看世界上最成功的产品之一，iPhone，对吧？

And you ask yourself, what was exactly the problem when they started?

你问自己，他们开始时到底存在什么问题？

And the answer is that there was no problem when they started.

而答案是，他们开始的时候没有任何问题。

There were smartphones and people were actually very happy with them.

智能手机出现了，人们实际上对它们非常满意。

And so occasionally we need to invent something completely new, but solving a problem is simply the simplest way to create value.

因此，有时我们需要发明一些全新的东西，但解决问题只是创造价值的最简单方法。

Lenny Rachitsky: Another element of picking a problem to work on, so you say you fall in love with a problem.

Lenny Rachitsky：选择要解决的问题的另一个要素是，你说你爱上了一个问题。

Is being excited to work on this problem.

很高兴能够解决这个问题。

There's oftentimes problems you find that aren't that exciting to you or you're not excited to work on real estate software, but you find there's a big problem.

您经常会发现一些问题对您来说并不那么令人兴奋，或者您对开发房地产软件不感兴趣，但您发现存在一个大问题。

How important is it that you're personally passionate and excited to work on this thing versus like, "Oh, wow.

你个人对这件事充满热情和兴奋是多么重要，而不是像“哦，哇。

This is a huge business opportunity.

这是一个巨大的商机。

I got to go after it.

我必须去追寻它。

It doesn't matter if I'm not that passionate about it."

即使我对此没有那么热情也没关系。”

Uri Levine: Fall in love, right?

尤里·莱文：坠入爱河，对吗？

This is really passionate.

这实在是太热情了。

Really, really passionate.

真的，真的很热情。

Look, the journey is really hard and complex and long and so you have to be in love in order to go into this journey because otherwise it's not going to be successful.

看，这段旅程真的很艰难、复杂、漫长，所以你必须恋爱才能进入这段旅程，否则它不会成功。

You really want to be passionate.

你真的想要充满激情。

If you're not passionate about the problem, even though that the problem might be real and big and significant, there is not enough drive, there is not enough internal drive to take you through the hardship of the journey, and so you need to be passionate.

如果你对这个问题没有热情，即使这个问题可能是真实的、大的、重要的，但没有足够的动力，没有足够的内在动力来带你度过这段艰难的旅程，所以你需要充满激情。

You need to fall in love.

你需要坠入爱河。

You personally need to fall in love with the problem.

你个人需要爱上这个问题。

And then actually what you're trying to do is engage everyone else to fall in love with the same problem, to go into this journey, into this path and follow your leadership there.

然后实际上你要做的就是让其他人都爱上同样的问题，进入这个旅程，进入这条道路并跟随你的领导。

Lenny Rachitsky: Is there an example of a pivot that you maybe went through where you realized the problem was not as big as you thought or you realized there's a bigger problem?

Lenny Rachitsky：有没有一个你可能经历过的转变的例子，你意识到问题并不像你想象的那么大，或者你意识到有一个更大的问题？

Uri Levine: So actually there are many, right?

Uri Levine：所以实际上有很多，对吧？

So Oversee deals with maybe biggest secret in travel industry.

因此，Oversee 可能涉及旅游业最大的秘密。

What happened to airfare after you booked your flight?

预订航班后，机票价格发生了什么变化？

Now you have no idea because you never compare prices after you met the reservation.

现在你不知道了，因为你在预订后就不再比较价格了。

But you know that airfare is going up and down all the time.

但你知道机票价格一直在涨跌。

It's going up and down before you are making the reservation and keep on going up and down after you're making the reservation.

在您预订之前它会上下波动，并且在您预订之后继续上下波动。

So if this is the price that you paid and this is cancellation fees, if the price drops here, you can rebook the same flight at the cheaper price.

因此，如果这是您支付的价格，这是取消费用，如果这里的价格下降，您可以以更便宜的价格重新预订同一航班。

Uri Levine: If you would only keep on comparing prices after that, right?

Uri Levine：如果您在那之后继续比较价格，对吗？

So we started this company that is actually monitoring your own itinerary and we realized that this is going to be huge benefits to travelers and we started that as a B2C company, direct to consumers, and we realized that even though the people really care, they are not willing to take the action that is required, and we ended up with doing that for corporates, and in corporates there are very simple ways for them to engage that automatically, so automatic rebooking and so forth, and we can save corporates about 10% of the travel budget that goes directly to bottom line.

所以我们创办了这家公司，它实际上监控你自己的行程，我们意识到这将为旅行者带来巨大的好处，我们开始作为一家 B2C 公司，直接面向消费者，我们意识到即使人们真的关心，他们也不愿意采取所需的行动，我们最终为企业这样做，在企业中，他们有非常简单的方法可以自动参与，例如自动重新预订等等，我们可以为企业节省大约 10% 的旅行预算这直接关系到底线。

So we started that as a B2C and then we realized that this is way harder than we think it is, and we ended up with converting that into B2B, which turns out to be very successful for us.

所以我们一开始是做 B2C 的，然后我们意识到这比我们想象的要困难得多，最后我们将其转变为 B2B，这对我们来说非常成功。

And so occasionally there are companies that you start your journey with one perception and you change that and that will happen multiple times.

因此，偶尔会有一些公司，你以一种看法开始你的旅程，然后你改变这种看法，这种情况会发生多次。

Lenny Rachitsky: That's an awesome example.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个很棒的例子。

I want to, before I move on to, I'm kind of thinking about this in the phases of starting a company.

我想，在我继续之前，我在创办公司的阶段会考虑这个问题。

So we're talking right now about coming up with the idea that you want to commit to.

所以我们现在正在讨论提出你想要承诺的想法。

A lot of people that want to start companies are not sure how to find a great idea, so the core advice you're sharing is find something, find a problem, and fall in love with solving that problem in whatever way you can.

许多想要创办公司的人不知道如何找到一个好主意，所以你分享的核心建议是找到一些东西，找到一个问题，并爱上以任何方式解决该问题。

Do you have any other advice for helping somebody find a problem and finding a startup idea?

对于帮助某人发现问题和找到创业想法，您还有其他建议吗？

Where do you find startup ideas?

您在哪里找到创业想法？

What do you find?

你发现了什么？

What does work for you mostly?

什么对你最有效？

Uri Levine: So for me, it's usually personal frustration that leads me to start to think about it, whether or not we can change it.

尤里·莱文：所以对我来说，通常是个人的挫败感让我开始思考我们是否可以改变它。

I hate traffic jams, right?

我讨厌堵车，对吗？

I hate leaving money on the table, right?

我讨厌把钱留在桌上，对吗？

So there are many things that I ran into and I get frustrated and I tell myself, "No, no, no. There must be a different way to do that." But in general, look, the problem itself needs to start from you, right?

所以我遇到了很多事情，我感到沮丧，我告诉自己，“不，不，不。必须有一种不同的方法来做到这一点。”但总的来说，你看，问题本身需要从你开始，对吧？

Something that really bothers you, something that you care about, and then it's the validations of the problem that you speak with many people, try to realize.

一些真正困扰你的事情，一些你关心的事情，然后是你与很多人交谈并试图认识到的问题的验证。

Now if you'll tell me, oh, this is a B2B, then speak with many businesses, right?

现在，如果你告诉我，哦，这是一家 B2B，然后与许多企业交谈，对吗？

Speak with those that you believe actually do have this problem and I understand their perception.

与您认为确实存在此问题的人交谈，我理解他们的看法。

Uri Levine: Once you validate that, then there are few things that you need to realize.

Uri Levine：一旦你验证了这一点，那么你就不需要意识到一些事情了。

One is about the journey itself.

一是关于旅程本身。

This is going to be a multi-dimensional journey.

这将是一次多维度的旅程。

It's going to be at least three dimensions and maybe fourth, right?

它至少是三个维度，也许是第四个维度，对吧？

So the three dimensions, one of them is it's going to be a roller coaster journey with ups and downs and ups and downs.

所以三个维度，其中之一就是这将是一次过山车之旅，有起有落，有起有伏。

And look, if you'll tell me that all the businesses in the world have ups and downs, I agree, but the frequency of those when you are building a startup?

听着，如果你告诉我世界上所有的企业都会有起起落落，我同意，但是当你建立一家初创公司时，起起落落的频率是多少？

Way higher.

更高。

I think that I heard the best quote on that from Ben Horowitz, Ben Horowitz from Andreessen Horowitz venture capital firm, and before that he used to be a CEO of a startup and he was asked whether or not he was sleeping well at night and he said, "Oh, yeah, I slept like a baby.

我想我听过本·霍洛维茨 (Ben Horowitz) 的最佳引述，来自安德森·霍洛维茨 (Andreessen Horowitz) 风险投资公司的本·霍洛维茨 (Ben Horowitz)，在此之前，他曾经是一家初创公司的首席执行官，有人问他晚上睡得好吗，他说：“哦，是的，我睡得像个婴儿。

I woke up every two hours and cried." And that's really the reality of that.

我每两个小时就会醒来并哭泣。”这确实是事实。

The frequency of the differences are so dramatic that there is nothing compared to that, a roller coaster journey.

差异的发生频率如此之大，以至于没有什么能比得上过山车之旅。

Uri Levine: It's also a journey of failures.

Uri Levine：这也是一次失败的旅程。

Look, we are trying to build something new that no one did before, and even though that we think that we know exactly what we are doing, we don't.

看，我们正在尝试构建一些以前没有人做过的新东西，即使我们认为我们确切地知道我们在做什么，但我们并不知道。

So we try.

所以我们尝试一下。

We try one thing and it doesn't work.

我们尝试了一件事，但它不起作用。

We try another thing and it doesn't work.

我们尝试另一件事，但没有成功。

Or if we keep on trying different things until we find one thing that does work.

或者，如果我们继续尝试不同的事情，直到找到一种可行的方法。

Now, if you realize that this is going to be a journey of failures, then there are two immediate conclusions.

现在，如果你意识到这将是一次失败的旅程，那么有两个直接的结论。

The first one is that if you're afraid to fail, then in reality you already failed because you are not going to try.

第一个是，如果你害怕失败，那么实际上你已经失败了，因为你不会去尝试。

Albert Einstein used to say that if you haven't failed, that because you haven't tried new things before.

阿尔伯特·爱因斯坦曾经说过，如果你没有失败，那是因为你以前没有尝试过新事物。

If you're going to try new things, you will fail.

如果你想尝试新事物，你就会失败。

Michael Jordan used to say that, "I've failed over and over and over and over again and this is what made me successful." And so this is the first conclusion.

迈克尔·乔丹曾经说过：“我一次又一次失败，一次又一次失败，这就是我成功的原因。”这是第一个结论。

Uri Levine: The second conclusion is that you really want to fail fast.

尤里·莱文：第二个结论是你真的想快速失败。

Just think about it, right?

想想看吧？

If you fail fast, you still have plenty of time to try another attempt and build another version of the product.

如果你很快失败，你仍然有足够的时间尝试另一次尝试并构建产品的另一个版本。

Try another go-to-market approach.

尝试另一种进入市场的方法。

Try a different business model so you still have plenty of time to make more and more and more attempts, and the more attempts that you have, you simply increase the likelihood of being successful.

尝试不同的商业模式，这样你仍然有足够的时间进行越来越多的尝试，并且尝试越多，成功的可能性就会增加。

Just think that you play basketball, right, and you try to score from half court.

想象一下你打篮球，对吧，你尝试在半场得分。

If you have one shot and you are not Steph Curry, you are very likely to miss.

如果你有一次投篮机会，而你不是斯蒂芬·库里，那么你很可能会投失。

But if you actually have a lot of shots, one of them you're going to make.

但如果你实际上有很多投篮机会，那么你就会投中其中一个。

That's it.

就是这样。

Just think about it.

想一想吧。

The biggest enemy of good enough is perfect.

足够好最大的敌人是完美。

You don't need to be perfect.

你不需要完美。

You need to be good enough in order to win the market, and the way that you are going to become good enough, by the way, is really simple.

为了赢得市场，你需要足够好，顺便说一句，要变得足够好，方法非常简单。

You start with not good enough and you iterate and iterate and iterate until you become good enough and then you'll win.

你从不够好开始，然后迭代、迭代、迭代，直到你变得足够好，然后你就会获胜。

Uri Levine: The third dimension is that this is going to be long journey.

尤里·莱文（Uri Levine）：第三个维度是这将是一个漫长的旅程。

Very long.

很长。

Way longer than you think it is.

比你想象的要长得多。

And the longest part of it is until you figure out product market fit, and product market fit goes into the different phases of building a company.

其中最长的部分是直到你弄清楚产品市场契合度，而产品市场契合度进入了创建公司的不同阶段。

To a certain extent, I would say, look, the difference between a corporate and a startup is that a corporate knows this is our value proposition, this is the product that we are selling, this is the pricing of this product that we are selling, this is the target audience, this is how we are going to sell them, this is how we going to the market, and all we have to do is keep on executing and hopefully nothing will change over the period of time.

在某种程度上，我想说，看，企业和初创公司之间的区别在于，企业知道这是我们的价值主张，这是我们正在销售的产品，这是我们正在销售的产品的定价，这是目标受众，这就是我们将如何销售它们，这就是我们进入市场的方式，我们所要做的就是继续执行，希望在一段时间内不会发生任何变化。

When you start as a startup, you don't have a product.

当你作为一家初创公司开始时，你没有产品。

You don't know what's the business model.

你不知道商业模式是什么。

You don't know what people are going to pay you for.

你不知道人们会付钱给你什么。

You don't know how to grow your business, and you need to figure out all of those, and this is going to be a long journey.

你不知道如何发展你的业务，你需要弄清楚所有这些，这将是一个漫长的旅程。

Uri Levine: Now, the longest part is usually figuring out product market fit and product market fit is really simple.

Uri Levine：现在，最长的部分通常是弄清楚产品市场契合度，而产品市场契合度非常简单。

That means that you create value to your customers.

这意味着您为客户创造价值。

If you do not figure out product market fit, you will die.

如果你不弄清楚产品的市场契合度，你就会死。

As simple as that.

就这么简单。

You never heard of a company that did not figure out product market fit.

你从来没有听说过一家公司没有弄清楚产品的市场契合度。

They simply died.

他们只是死了。

That's it.

就是这样。

Now, once they do, and for a second I want you to think of, with all the applications that you're using every day, right?

现在，一旦他们这样做了，我想让你想一想，你每天使用的所有应用程序，对吧？

From searching Google, using Waze, WhatsApp, Facebook, Netflix, Uber, whatever it is, and ask yourself what is the difference between any of those today and the first time that you have used that?

从搜索 Google、使用 Waze、WhatsApp、Facebook、Netflix、Uber，无论是什么，问问自己今天使用的这些与第一次使用它们有什么区别？

And the answer is that there is no difference.

答案是没有区别。

We are searching Google today the same way that we searched Google for the first time in our life.

我们今天搜索谷歌的方式与我们一生中第一次搜索谷歌的方式相同。

We're using Waze today the same way that we used Waze for the first time in their life.

我们今天使用位智的方式与他们一生中第一次使用位智的方式相同。

So once a company figure out product market fit, they don't change their product anymore because this is the value that they created to the customers and you don't want to change that.

因此，一旦公司弄清楚产品适合市场，他们就不会再改变他们的产品，因为这是他们为客户创造的价值，你不想改变它。

Uri Levine: What we don't know is how long did it take them to get to this point, right?

Uri Levine：我们不知道他们花了多长时间才达到这一点，对吧？

Beforehand we never heard of them and after that they don't change that anymore.

之前我们从未听说过他们，之后他们就不再改变这一点了。

It's a matter of years.

这是几年的事了。

For Waze, it was four years.

对于位智来说，这是四年。

For Microsoft, it was five years.

对于微软来说，这是五年。

For Netflix, it was 10 years.

对于 Netflix 来说，已经是 10 年了。

Now if you'll tell me, "Oh, today is very different.

现在，如果你告诉我，“哦，今天非常不同。

ChatGPT just started a year ago." No, they're seven years old.

ChatGPT 一年前才开始。”不，他们已经七岁了。

It took them six years until you heard about them for the first time in your life.

你花了六年的时间才第一次听说他们。

So it does take time to create value and this is something that is really significant.

所以创造价值确实需要时间，这是非常重要的事情。

Now, at the end of the day, product market fit have one metric.

现在，归根结底，产品市场契合度只有一个指标。

One metric.

一个指标。

That's it.

就是这样。

Retention.

保留。

That's really simple.

这真的很简单。

If you create value, they will come back.

如果你创造价值，他们就会回来。

If they're not coming back, that means that you are not creating value.

如果他们没有回来，那就意味着你没有创造价值。

Now think about your episodes, right, of this podcast, right?

现在想想这个播客的剧集，对吧？

Most of your listeners are returning, right?

大多数听众都回来了，对吗？

Because you create value for them and they are coming back.

因为你为他们创造了价值，他们就会回来。

That's it.

就是这样。

Lenny Rachitsky: 100%.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：100%。

Every single one, every episode.

每一个，每一集。

Uri Levine: Occasionally there are new one, right?

Uri Levine：偶尔会有新的，对吧？

Lenny Rachitsky: And there's new ones coming in all the time.

Lenny Rachitsky：而且一直都有新的产品出现。

Uri Levine: .

尤里·莱文：。

By the way, this is one thing that some businesses don't realize, whether or not their customers are going to be new customers or returning customers, and in many cases they simply fail to realize that upfront and the result is that they are not building the right go-to-market strategy.

顺便说一句，这是一些企业没有意识到的一件事，无论他们的客户是新客户还是回头客，而且在许多情况下，他们根本没有提前意识到这一点，结果是他们没有制定正确的进入市场策略。

Lenny Rachitsky: We covered a lot of ground there.

Lenny Rachitsky：我们在那里做了很多工作。

That was amazing.

太棒了。

I'm going to follow a number of threads of things you just touched on.

我将跟踪您刚才提到的一些事情。

You talked about product market fit briefly.

您简要谈到了产品市场契合度。

What was the moment you felt product market fit with Waze?

您觉得产品市场适合 Waze 的那一刻是什么？

I don't know if I've ever heard that story.

我不知道我是否听过这个故事。

Uri Levine: We started in Israel and Israel is a small place and we ended up with being very successful in Israel and then we said, "Wait a minute.

乌里·莱文：我们从以色列开始，以色列是一个小地方，我们最终在以色列取得了非常成功，然后我们说，“等一下。

Waze crowdsource all the data, right?" Not just the traffic information and speed cams and so forth, but also the map data itself, so we can start from a blank page.

位智将所有数据众包，对吗？”不仅仅是交通信息和测速摄像头等，还有地图数据本身，所以我们可以从空白页开始。

And the users while they drive, they create the map and they create traffic information and so forth.

用户在开车时会创建地图并创建交通信息等等。

And so we figure out that we can start anywhere and we made Waze global at the end of 2009 and we expect that to work the same way that it did in Israel, but it didn't.

所以我们发现我们可以从任何地方开始，我们在 2009 年底将 Waze 推向全球，我们希望它能像在以色列那样发挥作用，但事实并非如此。

It was not good enough.

这还不够好。

It was not good enough in the U.S. It was not good enough in Western Europe.

在美国还不够好，在西欧也不够好。

It was not good enough in Latin America, it was not good enough in Asia.

在拉丁美洲还不够好，在亚洲也不够好。

It was not good enough anywhere that matters, right?

重要的地方还不够好，对吧？

Uri Levine: It was actually good enough in about four places.

Uri Levine：实际上大约有四个地方已经足够好了。

In the Czech Republic, in Slovakia, in Latvia and Ecuador, and that's about it.

在捷克共和国、斯洛伐克、拉脱维亚和厄瓜多尔，仅此而已。

Rest of the world not good enough.

世界其他地方还不够好。

So what we did is we spoke with the drivers.

所以我们所做的就是与司机交谈。

Look, they wanted us to be successful.

看，他们希望我们成功。

We basically said the drivers are going to fight traffic jams together, so common enemy, togetherness, all goodness.

我们基本上说司机们要一起对抗交通堵塞，所以共同的敌人，团结一致，一切都好。

Everyone wanted that to work, right?

每个人都希望它能起作用，对吧？

So people downloaded the app and it simply was not good enough.

所以人们下载了这个应用程序，但它根本不够好。

So they churned, right, because if it's not good enough, you're not coming back.

所以他们流失了，对吧，因为如果不够好，你就不会回来。

We spoke with them.

我们与他们交谈。

We asked them what didn't work for them.

我们问他们什么对他们不起作用。

They told us because they wanted it to work, and we built the next version addressing everything that they've told us, and we know that this is it, and it's not.

他们告诉我们，因为他们希望它能发挥作用，我们构建了下一个版本来解决他们告诉我们的所有问题，我们知道就是这样，也不是。

So we doing it all over again.

所以我们重新开始。

We speak with the drivers.

我们与司机交谈。

We ask them what didn't work for them, they tell us.

我们问他们什么对他们不起作用，他们告诉我们。

Now we build the next version and now we have the conviction that it's going to work and it's not.

现在我们构建了下一个版本，现在我们确信它会起作用，但事实并非如此。

Journey of failures.

失败之旅。

Uri Levine: Iteration after iteration after iteration after iteration.

Uri Levine：一次又一次的迭代，一次又一次的迭代。

More than a year of iterations until beginning of 2011 that we actually started to see that working, and then it's in multiple places.

经过一年多的迭代，直到 2011 年初，我们才真正开始看到这一点，然后它出现在多个地方。

In the U.S., one metropolitan after the other, right?

在美国，一个又一个的大都市，对吗？

Los Angeles first and then San Francisco and then Washington D.C. and Chicago and New York and Atlanta and so forth.

首先是洛杉矶，然后是旧金山，然后是华盛顿特区、芝加哥、纽约和亚特兰大等等。

In Europe, one country after the other.

在欧洲，一个又一个国家。

Italy first and then France and Netherlands and Sweden and Spain and one country after the other.

首先是意大利，然后是法国、荷兰、瑞典和西班牙，一个接着一个。

In Latin America, one country after the other.

在拉丁美洲，一个又一个国家。

Colombia first and then Chile and then Brazil and then Mexico and then rest of Latin America.

首先是哥伦比亚，然后是智利，然后是巴西，然后是墨西哥，然后是拉丁美洲其他地区。

In Asia, multiple countries one after the other.

在亚洲，多个国家相继出现。

Not all of them, by the way.

顺便说一下，并不是全部。

Not all of them.

不是全部。

Japan is a very good example where it didn't work and it will never work.

日本就是一个很好的例子，它没有奏效，也永远不会奏效。

Waze crowdsourced the information, right?

位智众包了这些信息，对吗？

Which basically says that as soon as we get to the level of good enough, then we are good enough.

这基本上是说，一旦我们达到足够好的水平，那么我们就足够好了。

Uri Levine: House numbering plan.

Uri Levine：房屋编号计划。

In the U.S., it's really simple, right?

在美国，这真的很简单，对吧？

Every block is a hundreth numbers, right?

每个块都是百分之一的数字，对吗？

And so if I have the map, I can actually count the number of blocks and take you to approximate the right location even if I don't have exactly all the house numbers there.

因此，如果我有地图，即使我没有确切的所有门牌号码，我实际上也可以计算街区的数量并带您大致找到正确的位置。

Most of the western world, it's a geographical order.

在西方世界的大部分地区，这是一种地理秩序。

So in Israel, this is going to be sequential order, odd number on one side of the street, even number on the other side of the street starting from one until the end of the street and so forth, so it's enough that I will have few house numbers that I can actually take you to the right place.

所以在以色列，这将是连续的顺序，奇数在街道的一侧，偶数在街道的另一侧，从一开始直到街道的尽头，依此类推，所以我有很少的门牌号码就足够了，我实际上可以带你到正确的地方。

Uri Levine: In the UK, house number starts on one side off the street and then on the other side they are coming back, right?

Uri Levine：在英国，门牌号从街道一侧开始，然后在另一侧回来，对吗？

And so there is an order.

所以有一个命令。

In Japan, it's chronological order.

在日本，是按时间顺序排列的。

The oldest house in the neighborhood is house number one.

附近最古老的房子是一号房。

Uri Levine: And then the house number two can be miles away, but it's the second oldest house in the neighborhood and so you have to have all the house numbers unless...

Uri Levine：然后，二号门牌可能在几英里之外，但它是附近第二古老的房子，所以你必须拥有所有门牌号，除非......

Until then you are not good enough.

在那之前你还不够好。

And crowdsource is, if you need perfect information, crowdsource may not be the right way to do that.

众包是，如果你需要完美的信息，众包可能不是正确的方式。

Lenny Rachitsky: Just to close the loop on this question, when you were launching these markets and it wasn't working, were you actually looking at retention at that point, and if so, was there a number you were looking for?

Lenny Rachitsky：为了结束这个问题，当你推出这些市场但没有发挥作用时，你是否真的在考虑保留率，如果是的话，你是否在寻找一个数字？

Or was it more qualitative like it's just taken off off into the right.

或者它的质量是否更高，就像它刚刚从右侧起飞一样。

Like where were you actually watching back in the early days?

就像您早期实际上在哪里观看一样？

Uri Levine: That was easier for us because we tried to compare everything to Israel, so we looked at the frequency of use or when our people are coming back.

乌里·莱文（Uri Levine）：这对我们来说更容易，因为我们试图将一切与以色列进行比较，所以我们研究了使用频率或我们的人民何时回来。

How long does it take them until the next try and until the next try.

他们距离下一次尝试和下一次尝试需要多长时间。

And in generally speaking, if you look at something that have high frequency of use, then you will be looking at three-month retentions of 30, 40, 50% is actually pretty good indication.

一般来说，如果您查看使用频率较高的内容，那么您会看到三个月的保留率为 30%、40%、50%，这实际上是一个很好的指标。

But usually what would happen is that you would know when they convert and that's going to be after the third or the fourth time, and if they're not getting to the fourth time, then they are basically saying, "Okay.

但通常会发生的情况是，你会知道他们何时转变，这将是在第三次或第四次之后，如果他们没有达到第四次，那么他们基本上会说：“好吧。

We gave it a try.

我们尝试了一下。

We really like this story.

我们真的很喜欢这个故事。

We gave it another try, and it's not good enough."

我们又试了一次，但还不够好。”

Lenny Rachitsky: That's a cool heuristic.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个很酷的启发式方法。

Do you find that that is useful for other startups, consumer-type startups or is that just something you think specific to Waze at that point, this idea of coming back for the third time?

您是否发现这对其他初创公司、消费者型初创公司有用，或者这只是您当时认为 Waze 特有的东西，即第三次回来的想法？

Uri Levine: It's really depending on the frequency of use, right?

Uri Levine：这实际上取决于使用频率，对吧？

If I will tell you that I have a startup that helps you to file your tax returns in three minutes, then okay, that's absolutely amazing, but you are only going to do that, next time is next year.

如果我告诉你，我有一家初创公司可以帮助你在三分钟内提交纳税申报表，那么好吧，这绝对是令人惊奇的，但你只会这样做，下次是明年。

By the way, we did have a startup that was doing that.

顺便说一句，我们确实有一家初创公司正在这样做。

It's still a little bit up and running, but that was really frustrating because the tax authority shut us down.

它仍然有点正常运行，但这确实令人沮丧，因为税务机关关闭了我们。

Lenny Rachitsky: You got to fall in with the problem.

Lenny Rachitsky：你必须陷入这个问题。

You got to power through that.

你必须通过它获得权力。

Just change the government.

换个政府就行了

Just kidding.

只是在开玩笑。

The story you told of Waze and iterating is a really good example of falling in love with the problem.

你讲述的位智和迭代的故事是爱上这个问题的一个很好的例子。

You're really passionate about.

你真的很热衷。

I want to solve traffic, I hate traffic.

我想解决交通问题，我讨厌交通问题。

By the way, what it made me think about a little bit is Elon, when he hated traffic, he built the boring company and built tunnels underground, and your solution to hate traffic is I'm going to build Waze in a soft wrap.

顺便说一句，这让我想到了埃隆，当他讨厌交通时，他建立了无聊的公司并在地下建造隧道，而你讨厌交通的解决方案是我将用软包装建造位智。

Uri Levine: We start Waze with the vision that we are going to help people to avoid traffic jams.

Uri Levine：我们创办 Waze 的愿景是帮助人们避免交通拥堵。

Now the reality is that there are more traffic jams today than there were in 2007.

现在的现实是，今天的交通拥堵比 2007 年还要严重。

Obviously, number one, I'm not done.

显然，第一，我还没有完成。

And number two, if you ask people what is the value of Waze, then it's not about avoiding traffic.

第二，如果你问人们 Waze 的价值是什么，那么它并不是为了避免交通拥堵。

It's about creating certainty and certainty is way higher value than saving time.

这是为了创造确定性，而确定性比节省时间的价值要高得多。

So you know exactly when you're going to get there and this is a way higher value.

所以你确切地知道你什么时候会到达那里，这是一个更高的价值。

And by the way, we learned that in the U.S. market when we spoke with people.

顺便说一句，当我们与人们交谈时，我们在美国市场了解到了这一点。

They told us, "If I am living in Cupertino and I need to drive up to San Francisco and I can take 101 or 280, I don't really want to change my route unless there is something dramatic, but what I really want to know is how long it's going to take me.

他们告诉我们，“如果我住在库比蒂诺，我需要开车去旧金山，我可以乘坐 101 路或 280 路，我真的不想改变我的路线，除非有什么戏剧性的事情，但我真正想知道的是需要多长时间。

So I'm going to stay on the 101.

所以我要留在101路。

I'm not going to get into service road.

我不会进入服务道路。

I'm not going to take El Camino Real.

我不会选择皇家卡米诺。

I'm not going to try something else.

我不会尝试其他事情。

I'm going to stay on the 101.

我要留在101路。

Just let me know how long it's going to take." So certainty creates way more value than saving time.

请告诉我需要多长时间。”因此，确定性创造的价值远大于节省时间。

Lenny Rachitsky: I want to talk through a couple other of the chapters in your book.

Lenny Rachitsky：我想谈谈你书中的其他几章。

So chapter four is around the different phases of a startup journey and your core advice is that it's important to focus on one thing at a time in each of these phases, and the first phase, you call it the all over the place phase, I think, or yeah, the all over phase, and the idea is you need to get out of that as soon as you can and then focus.

所以第四章是围绕创业之旅的不同阶段，你的核心建议是，在每个阶段一次专注于一件事很重要，第一阶段，我认为，你称之为全面阶段，或者是的，全面阶段，你需要尽快摆脱这个阶段，然后集中注意力。

Can you just kind of talk through these different phases and what you think people do wrong along the phases?

您能谈谈这些不同的阶段以及您认为人们在这些阶段做错了什么吗？

Maybe they get them wrong or they focus on the wrong things in each phase.

也许他们弄错了，或者他们在每个阶段都专注于错误的事情。

Uri Levine: So initially you think about your new idea from multiple perspective, right?

Uri Levine：所以最初你会从多个角度思考你的新想法，对吗？

This is the problem.

这就是问题所在。

This is how this solution is going to look like.

这就是这个解决方案的样子。

This is what I'm going to do next year.

这就是我明年要做的事情。

This is my 10 years vision.

这是我10年的愿景。

This is my business model and so forth.

这是我的商业模式等等。

So you think about everything, but you actually need to execute only one thing.

所以你什么都想，但实际上你只需要执行一件事。

Now this one thing is figuring out product market fit.

现在要做的一件事就是弄清楚产品的市场契合度。

It's not one thing, right?

这不是一回事，对吧？

Wait a minute.

等一下。

You also need to build an organization and you want that organization to be something that you really like and so there are a lot of operational stuff, but you need to figure out product market fit.

您还需要建立一个组织，并且希望该组织成为您真正喜欢的组织，因此有很多运营方面的内容，但您需要弄清楚产品市场契合度。

As we said earlier, if you don't figure out product market fit, you will die.

正如我们之前所说，如果你不弄清楚产品的市场契合度，你就会死掉。

If you do, then you get to live and die another day and the other day is whether or not you're going to figure out how to grow your business and whether or not you're going to figure out your business model.

如果你这样做了，那么你就得再生又死，而另一天就是你是否要弄清楚如何发展你的业务以及你是否要弄清楚你的商业模式。

Uri Levine: Now the good news is that I will tell you that if you create value, you will figure out a business model, at least for the people that you create value for them.

Uri Levine：现在好消息是，我会告诉你，如果你创造价值，你就会找到一种商业模式，至少对于你为他们创造价值的人来说。

They are most likely willing to pay.

他们很可能愿意付费。

Now in general, I'm not saying that this is the only business model that is viable, but if you create value, you will figure out a business model.

总的来说，我并不是说这是唯一可行的商业模式，但如果你创造价值，你就会找到一种商业模式。

But figuring out a business model is a journey by itself, and guess what?

但弄清楚商业模式本身就是一个旅程，你猜怎么着？

It's going to be a long roller coaster journey of failures.

这将是一次充满失败的漫长过山车之旅。

When we started Waze, we thought that we're going to sell map data and traffic information and we ended up with doing advertisement.

当我们创办位智时，我们以为我们要出售地图数据和交通信息，但最终我们做了广告。

Very different business model.

非常不同的商业模式。

Because we realized that it's not for us.

因为我们意识到这不适合我们。

It's too long sales cycles.

销售周期太长了。

We were very mobile internet dynamic company and selling to government is not exactly what we wanted to do, and so we ended up with a different business model, but with a lot of reasoning why this is the right business model for us.

我们是一家非常有活力的移动互联网公司，向政府出售产品并不完全是我们想要做的，因此我们最终采用了不同的商业模式，但有很多理由说明为什么这对我们来说是正确的商业模式。

Uri Levine: And figuring out growth, look, if I would ask a hundred people on the street, how did you hear about Waze?

Uri Levine：计算增长，如果我问街上一百个人，你们是怎么听说 Waze 的？

They, 95 of them, if not 99 of them, will tell me, "Someone told me." Word-of-mouth, right?

他们，即使不是 99 个人，也有 95 个人会告诉我，“有人告诉我的。”口耳相传吧？

So everyone wants to have word-of-mouth.

所以大家都希望有口碑。

Word-of-mouth you can only have if you have high frequency of use.

只有使用频率高才能有口碑。

If you're doing tax returns once a year, even if you really like the experience, then once a year you're going to tell someone else.

如果你每年做一次纳税申报表，即使你真的很喜欢这种经历，那么每年你也会告诉别人一次。

If you're using Waze every day, then every day you have an opportunity to tell someone else.

如果您每天都使用位智，那么您每天都有机会告诉别人。

So word-of-mouth, even though that everyone would like that, it's only going to happen if you have high frequency of use.

所以口口相传，尽管每个人都喜欢这样，但只有当你使用频率很高时才会发生这种情况。

Uri Levine: So those phases requires different focus of the company, right?

Uri Levine：所以这些阶段需要公司有不同的关注点，对吗？

Initially if you focus on product market fit, then you don't need sales.

最初，如果您专注于产品市场契合度，那么您就不需要销售。

You have no product to sell.

您没有可出售的产品。

You don't need business development.

你不需要业务发展。

You don't need even marketing.

你甚至不需要营销。

You need product.

你需要产品。

You need developers and you need product lead to define the product and lead through the iterations of the product until we get to the level that it's good enough.

您需要开发人员和产品领导来定义产品并领导产品的迭代，直到我们达到足够好的水平。

Once you get there, you shift gears.

一旦你到达那里，你就换档。

If the product doesn't change, if we search Google the same way that we searched Google for the first time in our life, then the product development is now not going to be focused about value creation.

如果产品不改变，如果我们像人生中第一次搜索谷歌一样搜索谷歌，那么产品开发现在就不会专注于价值创造。

It's going to be focused about either figuring out business model or figuring out scale, and the entire company shift gears and move to a different phase.

它将专注于确定商业模式或确定规模，整个公司将转变方向并进入不同的阶段。

Uri Levine: Now, this is really hard.

尤里·莱文：现在，这真的很难。

Just think about it.

想一想吧。

If up until now the product development group was the only things that matters, all of a sudden we think about marketing now because we are now in the go-to-market phase that this is the most important thing of the company.

如果到目前为止产品开发团队是唯一重要的事情，那么我们突然想到了营销，因为我们现在正处于进入市场阶段，这是公司最重要的事情。

Occasionally I found companies that have challenging and shifting gears so they didn't figure out where the clutch is and you have to because otherwise you're stuck in the previous phase that you kind of finished that journey.

有时，我发现一些公司具有挑战性和换挡能力，因此他们不知道离合器在哪里，而你必须这样做，否则你会陷入完成旅程的前一阶段。

This journey is nearly done and you need to shift gears, and if you don't do that, then you get stuck.

这个旅程即将完成，你需要换档，如果你不这样做，那么你就会陷入困境。

If you do that, if you try to do multiple things at the same time, you will fail.

如果你这样做，如果你尝试同时做多件事，你就会失败。

Focus is not about what we are doing, it's about what we are not doing.

重点不是我们正在做什么，而是我们没有做什么。

These are the hard decisions.

这些都是艰难的决定。

Lenny Rachitsky: I like that.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢这样。

So the four phases, just to briefly summarize, it's kind of like come up with the idea, find product market fit, then it's a question of should you keep focusing on growth or should you figure out the business model before focusing heavily on growth?

所以，简单总结一下，这四个阶段，有点像提出想法，找到适合市场的产品，然后是你应该继续关注增长还是应该在重点关注增长之前弄清楚商业模式的问题？

In your advice, it sounds like if it's high frequency, word-of-mouth driven, focus on growth and then you figure out business model later.

在你的建议中，听起来好像是高频、口碑驱动、专注于增长，然后你再找出商业模式。

If not, figure out how you're going to make money and then figure out growth.

如果没有，先弄清楚如何赚钱，然后再考虑增长。

Uri Levine: Exactly.

尤里·莱文：没错。

Because if you have high frequency of use, you will end up with growth coming by itself, right, for word-of-mouth, and therefore you should do that at the beginning.

因为如果你的使用频率很高，那么你的口碑就会自然而然地增长，对吧，所以你应该一开始就这样做。

If you don't have high frequency of use, you are sentenced to acquire users or customers all of your lifetime.

如果你的使用频率不高，你就注定一生都在获取用户或客户。

If this is the case, then you really want to figure out the business model before you start and go and do that.

如果是这种情况，那么您确实想在开始之前弄清楚商业模式并采取行动。

Lenny Rachitsky: That's really helpful.

Lenny Rachitsky：这真的很有帮助。

I think actually a counter example to your point about how frequency of use is necessary for word-of-mouth growth is Airbnb.

我认为实际上 Airbnb 就是一个反例，可以说明使用频率对于口碑增长的重要性。

Something like 70% of Airbnb growth is word-of-mouth and frequency of use is actually really low.

Airbnb 的增长有 70% 是通过口碑传播的，而使用频率实际上非常低。

It's like once or twice a year.

好像一年一两次。

I wonder if it's because the experience is so unique and special that it still works and enough people travel enough times, slash if it was a higher frequency, it would've grown even faster, I imagine.

我想知道是否是因为这种体验是如此独特和特别，以至于它仍然有效，并且有足够多的人旅行足够多的次数，如果频率更高，我想它会增长得更快。

Uri Levine: High frequency of use is the simplest way for word-of-mouth.

Uri Levine：高使用频率是最简单的口碑传播方式。

The other thing is coolness.

另一件事是凉爽。

If it's really cool, then you'll tell more people, and Airbnb was really cool at the beginning of the journey, so now everyone knows about Airbnb, but when they started that was way cheaper and really unique experience than hotels.

如果它真的很酷，那么你会告诉更多的人，Airbnb 在旅程开始时真的很酷，所以现在每个人都知道 Airbnb，但当他们开始时，这比酒店便宜得多，而且是真正独特的体验。

Lenny Rachitsky: It's still actually mostly word-of-mouth.

Lenny Rachitsky：实际上仍然主要是口碑传播。

I think it was probably higher initially, but it's still almost 70, 80% driven by word-of-mouth.

我认为最初可能会更高，但仍然有近 70%、80% 是由口碑驱动的。

So it's still cool enough.

所以还是够爽的。

Good for them.

对他们有好处。

You have a couple of quotes that I wanted to share, which are along the lines of things you shared.

我想分享你的一些引言，它们与你分享的内容一致。

One is just, you have this kind of, what's the most important stage at a company?

一就是，你这样一个公司，最重要的阶段是什么？

They all are, but one at a time.

它们都是，但一次只有一个。

I love that line.

我喜欢那条线。

The other is the main thing is to keep the main thing the main thing.

另一个是主要的事情，就是保持主要的事情成为主要的事情。

The same advice you just shared.

您刚才分享的建议相同。

Just like focus.

就像焦点一样。

So you're in the PM, product market fit phase.

所以你正处于产品市场适应阶段。

Focus on that.

专注于此。

Don't think about growth yet.

暂时不要考虑增长。

Don't think about business model yet necessarily.

不一定要考虑商业模式。

I know investors are going to push you to figure these things out and you'll have to have some story of like, "Here's how it might make money.

我知道投资者会推动你弄清楚这些事情，你必须有一些类似的故事，“这就是它如何赚钱。

Here's how we think we're going to grow." Right?

这就是我们认为我们将如何成长的方式。”正确的？

You need to think about that a little bit, but maybe don't make that the focus.

你需要稍微考虑一下，但也许不要把它作为焦点。

Uri Levine: So this is one of the areas that investors don't like to hear the truth, right?

Uri Levine：所以这是投资者不喜欢听到真相的领域之一，对吧？

The truth is that I don't know how I'm going to bring the users.

事实上，我不知道如何吸引用户。

I will figure that out once I get there, but the reality is that right now I don't know, but they don't want to hear that.

一旦我到达那里，我就会弄清楚这一点，但现实是，现在我不知道，但他们不想听到这个。

What they want to hear is that, "Oh, I know exactly how I'm going to bring them." And what I will say is that I know exactly where I'm going to start my experiments, but most of the investors would like to see a coherent story that makes sense, right?

他们想听到的是，“哦，我完全知道我要如何带他们来。”我要说的是，我确切地知道我要从哪里开始我的实验，但大多数投资者都希望看到一个连贯且有意义的故事，对吗？

This is our business model.

这是我们的商业模式。

This is how we going to make money.

这就是我们赚钱的方式。

This is what we're going to sell.

这就是我们要卖的东西。

This is how much they're going to pay.

这就是他们要支付的金额。

This is why it's a simple business model and these are the comparable to this business model.

这就是为什么它是一个简单的商业模式，而这些都是与这个商业模式相当的。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。

But investors have the final word, unfortunately.

但不幸的是，投资者拥有最终决定权。

They decide if they want to invest or not, and so if your story is not compelling, they're going to be like, "All right.

他们决定是否要投资，所以如果你的故事不引人注目，他们会说，“好吧。

We'll find someone else."

我们会去找其他人。”

Uri Levine: You know, it's seasonality, right?

Uri Levine：你知道，这是季节性的，对吧？

There are periods of time that raising capital is easier and then many of the entrepreneurs will be choosers are not beggars, and there are periods of time that is that way around, and most of the entrepreneurs will be beggars and not choosers.

在某些时期，筹集资金比较容易，然后许多企业家将成为选择者而不是乞丐，而在某些时期，情况正是如此，大多数企业家将成为乞丐，而不是选择者。

Lenny Rachitsky: Imagine a place where you can find all your potential customers and get your message in front of them in a cost-efficient way.

Lenny Rachitsky：想象一个地方，您可以找到所有潜在客户，并以经济高效的方式向他们传达您的信息。

If you're a B2B business, that place exists, and it's called LinkedIn.

如果您从事 B2B 业务，那么这个地方就存在，它的名字叫 LinkedIn。

LinkedIn Ads allows you to build the right relationships, drive results, and reach your customers in a respectful environment.

LinkedIn 广告可让您建立正确的关系、推动成果并在相互尊重的环境中接触您的客户。

Two of my portfolio companies, Webflow and Census are LinkedIn success stories.

我的投资组合中的两家公司 Webflow 和 Census 都是 LinkedIn 的成功案例。

Census had a 10x increase in pipeline with the LinkedIn startup team.

Census 与 LinkedIn 初创团队合作的渠道增加了 10 倍。

For Webflow, after ramping up on LinkedIn in Q4, they had the highest marketing source revenue quarter to date.

对于 Webflow 来说，在第四季度在 LinkedIn 上取得进展后，他们拥有了迄今为止季度最高的营销来源收入。

With LinkedIn Ads, you'll have direct access to and can build relationships with decision makers including 950 million members, 180 million senior execs and over 10 million C-level executives.

借助 LinkedIn Ads，您将可以直接接触决策者并与其建立关系，其中包括 9.5 亿会员、1.8 亿高级管理人员和超过 1000 万 C 级管理人员。

You'll be able to drive results with targeting and measurement tools built specifically for B2B.

您将能够利用专为 B2B 构建的定位和衡量工具来推动结果。

Lenny Rachitsky: In tech, LinkedIn generated two to five x higher return on ad spend than any other social media platforms.

Lenny Rachitsky：在科技领域，LinkedIn 的广告支出回报率比任何其他社交媒体平台高出两到五倍。

Audiences on LinkedIn have two times the buying power of the average web audience, and you'll work with a partner who respects the B2B world you operate in.

LinkedIn 上的受众的购买力是普通网络受众的两倍，而且您将与尊重您所在 B2B 世界的合作伙伴合作。

Make B2B marketing everything it can be and get $100 credit on your next campaign.

尽一切可能进行 B2B 营销，并在您的下一次营销活动中获得 100 美元的积分。

Just go to LinkedIn.com/podLenny to claim your credit.

只需访问 LinkedIn.com/podLenny 即可领取您的积分。

That's LinkedIn.com/podLenny.

那是 LinkedIn.com/podLenny。

Terms and conditions apply.

条款和条件适用。

Lenny Rachitsky: Let's actually talk about fundraising as a topic I wanted to spend a little time on.

Lenny Rachitsky：让我们实际上谈谈筹款，这是我想花一点时间讨论的话题。

How much money have you raised for the companies that you've started total, roughly?

您为自己创办的公司总共筹集了多少钱？

Uri Levine: So Waze raised about $50 million throughout the entire journey.

Uri Levine：Waze 在整个过程中筹集了大约 5000 万美元。

We started by raising 12.

我们首先筹集了 12 美元。

That was the first investment round, and then we raised the 30, and then there was the last round that we raised actually not a lot.

那是第一轮投资，然后我们筹集了 30 美元，然后是最后一轮，我们筹集的资金实际上并不多。

Lenny Rachitsky: That's a surprising small amount of money to raise for the outcome.

Lenny Rachitsky：为实现这一成果而筹集的资金数量令人惊讶。

Uri Levine: In general, I would say Israeli startups are leaner than American startups, so you can raise less money.

Uri Levine：总的来说，我认为以色列初创公司比美国初创公司更精简，因此你可以筹集更少的资金。

Uri Levine: At way lower valuation, unfortunately, and end up with pretty successful results.

Uri Levine：不幸的是，估值较低，但最终取得了相当成功的结果。

Uri Levine: Raising capital, it's a journey by itself and different from the other journeys that you need only once.

Uri Levine：筹集资金本身就是一个旅程，与其他只需要一次的旅程不同。

Raising capital is going to happen multiple times.

筹集资金将会发生多次。

And if we say that building a startup is a roller coaster journey, then I will say raising capital is a roller coaster journey in the dark.

如果我们说建立一家初创公司是一次过山车之旅，那么我会说筹集资金就是一次黑暗中的过山车之旅。

Uri Levine: Yeah, sort of.

尤里·莱文：是的，有点像。

And one of the reason is that this is a different ballgame and you don't know how to play at the beginning.

原因之一是这是一场不同的球赛，你一开始不知道如何打。

I would say a few things about raising capital for the first time.

我想说一些关于首次筹集资金的事情。

Number one, I spoke with many investors and one of the conversations that I had that they really, really resonate with me was when I spoke with one of the leading VC in Israel and asked their partner, "How long does it take you to decide if you like the entrepreneur or not?" And he asked me, "Do you want the right answer or the real answer?" Say, "You know, I heard the right answer so many times, give me the real answer." And we were sitting in a small meeting room, so the guy is looking at me and then looking at the door and looking at me again and say, "It's before they sit down." Say, "Oh, no, no, no. Say that again, right?"

第一，我与许多投资者进行了交谈，他们真正引起我共鸣的一次对话是当我与以色列领先的风险投资家之一交谈并询问他们的合作伙伴时，“你需要多长时间才能决定是否喜欢这位企业家？”他问我：“你想要正确的答案还是真正的答案？”说：“你知道，我听过很多次正确的答案，请给我真正的答案。”我们坐在一个小会议室里，所以那个人看着我，然后看着门，又看着我说，“这是在他们坐下之前。”说：“哦，不，不，不。再说一遍，对吗？”

Uri Levine: That's the first impression.

尤里·莱文：这是第一印象。

Now we all have first impression.

现在我们都有第一印象了。

How long does it take you to decide if you like a candidate or not?

您需要多长时间才能决定是否喜欢某个候选人？

Second, you go on a date.

第二，你去约会。

How long does it take you to decide if you like the date?

您需要多长时间才能决定是否喜欢这个约会？

Seconds.

秒。

And then maybe there are a few more minutes that you allow yourself to either change your mind or let that first impression solidifies.

然后也许还有几分钟的时间，你可以让自己改变主意，或者让第一印象固化。

Now if this is the case and you're looking to raise capital, start with the strongest point at the beginning.

现在，如果是这种情况，并且您正在寻求筹集资金，请从一开始就从最强的点开始。

Whatever it is, and I don't care if this is the size of the problem.

不管是什么，我不在乎问题的严重程度。

This is the faction that you have.

这就是你所拥有的派系。

This is the team that you have built.

这就是你建立的团队。

I don't care what it is, start with that, because by the time you'll get there, they might be already setting up their mind.

我不在乎它是什么，从那开始，因为当你到达那里时，他们可能已经下定决心了。

Then start with the strongest point at the beginning.

然后从最强的点开始。

And by the way, finish with that as well.

顺便说一句，也结束了。

Uri Levine: So this is the first conclusion.

Uri Levine：这是第一个结论。

The second conclusion is that I spoke with early stage investors, those that invest the first money in.

第二个结论是我与早期投资者，即那些投资第一笔资金的投资者进行了交谈。

So company has a story to tell.

所以公司有一个故事要讲。

That's about it, right?

就是这样，对吧？

No traction, nothing yet is built and so forth, and I asked him, "Why did you decide to invest in this company and this company and this company?" And I spoke with many investors, and what I heard was actually pretty consistent.

没有牵引力，什么都还没有建立等等，我问他，“你为什么决定投资这家公司、这家公司、这家公司？”我和很多投资者交谈过，我听到的实际上非常一致。

I like the CEO.

我喜欢首席执行官。

I like the story.

我喜欢这个故事。

That's it.

就是这样。

I like the CEO.

我喜欢首席执行官。

I like the story.

我喜欢这个故事。

Now if this is the case, then there are two immediate conclusions.

如果情况确实如此，那么立即就有两个结论。

The first one is that the CEO goes alone to the meeting.

第一个是CEO单独去开会。

I need the headlight on me.

我需要头灯照在我身上。

I don't need any distractions.

我不需要任何干扰。

I don't need my team members.

我不需要我的团队成员。

I don't need anything else in the room, just me.

房间里不需要任何其他东西，只有我自己。

Because if I bring other people, then at the end of the day they might say, "Yeah, I like the team, but the CEO was not specific, right?

因为如果我带其他人来，那么最终他们可能会说：“是的，我喜欢这个团队，但首席执行官没有具体说明，对吧？

Was not unique.

并不是独一无二的。

Was not jumping out of the pages." So CEO goes along and tell the story.

没有跳出书页。”因此，CEO 也跟着讲了这个故事。

Uri Levine: The other part is that they need to tell a good story, and good story is not about facts.

尤里·莱文：另一部分是他们需要讲一个好故事，而好故事与事实无关。

It's about creating emotional engagement.

这是关于创造情感参与。

It's about creating the sense that the listener would like to be part of this story.

这是为了营造一种感觉，让听众愿意成为这个故事的一部分。

And for investor, it's two things.

对于投资者来说，这是两件事。

Number one is that they want to believe that this is usable, and number two, they want to believe that you can build it and this is the story that you need to tell.

第一是他们想要相信这是可用的，第二，他们想要相信你可以构建它，这就是你需要讲述的故事。

Now, I would say always start with the problem, right?

现在，我想说总是从问题开始，对吧？

Because guess what?

因为你猜怎么着？

Investors are also users.

投资者也是用户。

If they don't think that they're going to use it, so it's relevant for them, and they don't think that they're going to use it?

如果他们认为他们不会使用它，那么它与他们相关，并且他们认为他们不会使用它？

They will basically dismiss that.

他们基本上会驳回这一点。

They will basically say the market is not there.

他们基本上会说市场不存在。

Uri Levine: So these are two main things.

Uri Levine：所以这是两件主要的事情。

The third thing is it's a different ball game, right?

第三件事是这是一场不同的球赛，对吧？

So if you have product and you tell the story to potential customers, the right order of magnitude is that about one third of the listeners will buy.

因此，如果您有产品并向潜在客户讲述故事，正确的数量级是大约三分之一的听众会购买。

So in a more mature company, their pipeline is going to be three eggs in order to sell at the end of the year one eggs.

因此，在一家更成熟的公司中，他们的管道将是三个鸡蛋，以便在年底出售一个鸡蛋。

One third are going to say yes.

三分之一的人会说是。

In investors, it's 1%.

对于投资者来说，这个比例是1%。

Not one third, 1%.

不是三分之一，是1%。

So you're going to hear a hundred times no until you hear one yes.

所以你会听到一百遍“不”，直到你听到一个“是”。

And that a hundred times no is something that you need to understand from the beginning because that's really discouraging, right?

你从一开始就需要明白一百次不，因为这真的很令人沮丧，对吧？

You go and speak with investors and they tell you...

你去和投资者交谈，他们告诉你......

I call that they open up the big book of excuses why not.

我认为他们打开了一本厚厚的借口书，为什么不呢？

But in general, they are not going to invest, right?

但总的来说，他们不会投资，对吗？

Uri Levine: Now you look at it from the other side, a venture capital partner is likely to see between a hundred and 200 companies a year and invest in one or two.

Uri Levine：现在你从另一个角度来看，风险投资合作伙伴可能每年会看到 100 到 200 家公司，并投资其中一两家。

1%.

1%。

That's it.

就是这样。

So if this is the case, then it's going to be the same case for you.

因此，如果是这种情况，那么您也会遇到同样的情况。

One out of a hundred.

百分之一。

If you want to increase the likelihood, learn how to tell a good story, start at the strongest point at the beginning, remember that they are users, too, so their emotional engagement is going to come through the usage, the use case, and not through how big the business is.

如果你想增加可能性，学习如何讲一个好故事，从最有力的地方开始，记住他们也是用户，所以他们的情感参与将通过使用、用例来实现，而不是通过业务有多大来实现。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love the summary at the end.

Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢最后的总结。

I love that you summarized your points, because I try to do that.

我喜欢你总结你的观点，因为我试图这样做。

You did my job.

你完成了我的工作。

I love this phrase you have in your book, "The dance of 100 nos."

我喜欢你书中的这句话“100个舞蹈”。

Uri Levine: At the beginning you look at it and you say, "Okay, they say they decided not to invest because of X, Y, Z," right?

Uri Levine：一开始你会说，“好吧，他们说他们决定不投资是因为 X、Y、Z”，对吗？

Whatever it is, right?

不管是什么，对吧？

Google can do that in no time or the market is not big enough or the market is complex or whatever it is, and then you try to argue, and you don't know that it's useless, right?

谷歌很快就能做到这一点，或者市场不够大，或者市场很复杂，或者其他什么原因，然后你试图争论，但你不知道这是没有用的，对吗？

It's like you go on a date and she said no, and you try to argue, right?

这就像你去约会，她拒绝了，你试图争论，对吧？

No, there is nothing to argue anymore, right?

不，已经没有什么可争论的了，对吧？

That's no.

那不是。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。

I look at a lot of startups too.

我也考察了很多初创公司。

I do a bunch of angel investing, and yeah, if it's not going to be a fit, it's just not going to work, and I could spend all this time trying to explain it to you, but nothing's going to change.

我做了很多天使投资，是的，如果它不适合，那就行不通，我可以花所有时间试图向你解释它，但什么都不会改变。

And because there's other startups out there is a big part of it, right?

因为还有其他初创公司占了很大一部分，对吧？

You just want to pick the things you can that are the best, not necessarily things that are good ideas.

你只想挑选最好的东西，而不一定是好主意。

I really like this idea of starting with your strongest point.

我真的很喜欢从你的最强点开始的想法。

That's such an important tactical piece of advice.

这是非常重要的战术建议。

To your point, investors make decisions really quickly, and so starting with something that really catches their attention, it makes so much sense because once you feel like, "Oh, wow, maybe this is a thing," your whole brain is starting to look at it from a, oh, yeah, okay, like you have a positive bend on everything you're hearing versus like, "No, no, no, this is never going to work and everything is already biased."

就你的观点而言，投资者做出决定的速度非常快，因此从真正吸引他们注意力的事情开始，这是很有意义的，因为一旦你感觉“哦，哇，也许这是一件事”，你的整个大脑就会开始从，哦，是的，好吧，就像你对你听到的一切都有积极的态度，而不是“不，不，不，这永远不会起作用，一切都已经有偏见了。”

Uri Levine: So I would add here another very strong advice.

Uri Levine：所以我想在这里添加另一个非常强烈的建议。

Most people are missing the most important slide of their presentation.

大多数人都错过了演示文稿中最重要的幻灯片。

The most important slide of your presentation is the first slide, not the one that you think about it.

演示文稿中最重要的幻灯片是第一张幻灯片，而不是您想到的那张幻灯片。

The first slide.

第一张幻灯片。

The one that says Company XYZ intro.

上面写着 XYZ 公司简介。

This slide is going to be presented for the longest period of time.

这张幻灯片将呈现最长的一段时间。

Uri Levine: The longest period of time in the presentation, this slide is going to be presented on the screen and you didn't say anything there.

Uri Levine：演示中最长的一段时间，这张幻灯片将在屏幕上呈现，但你什么也没说。

This is the place that you're going to put your strongest point.

这是你要发挥自己最强点的地方。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love that.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢这个。

Is there an example of someone that did that or did you do that, one of your startups?

有没有人这样做过的例子，或者你也这样做过，你的初创公司之一？

What do you put there?

你在那里放什么？

Lenny Rachitsky: What's an example of something you put on that slide that's such a good idea?

Lenny Rachitsky：您在幻灯片上放置的东西是个好主意，有什么例子吗？

Uri Levine: Maybe size of the market.

Uri Levine：也许是市场规模。

Maybe description of the problem.

也许是问题的描述。

Whatever it is, right, the strongest point is there.

不管是什么，对吧，最强的点就在那里。

Now the second most important slide is the last one.

现在第二重要的幻灯片是最后一张。

Not the summary.

不是总结。

The one that says thank you.

那个说谢谢的人。

That's the time to repeat that.

是时候重复这一点了。

So most of their presentations will end up with thank you and my email, right, and this is going to be the last slide, right?

所以他们的大部分演示都会以谢谢和我的电子邮件结束，对吧，这将是最后一张幻灯片，对吗？

Which makes sense.

这是有道理的。

You just missed the opportunity.

你只是错过了机会。

This is going to be the second-longest displayed slide of the presentation.

这将是演示文稿中显示的第二长的幻灯片。

Maybe the first.

也许是第一个。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。

Everyone's sitting there chatting, asking you questions.

每个人都坐在那里聊天，问你问题。

That's so smart.

太聪明了。

Are there any more of these tips sitting in your head to share, because these are awesome.

您的脑海中还有其他这些技巧可以分享吗，因为这些都很棒。

Uri Levine: I do a lot of public speaking and usually my last slide says one more story and I decide on the story based on the audience and the dialogue so far and so forth.

Uri Levine：我做了很多公开演讲，通常我的最后一张幻灯片会讲一个故事，我会根据观众和到目前为止的对话等来决定故事。

But I have many of stories, many last stories that I would like to tell.

但我有很多故事，很多最后的故事我想讲。

The important part is that no one is going to cut you off the stage if you have just one more story, and so this is where you can recap everything.

重要的是，如果你还有一个故事，没有人会阻止你离开舞台，所以这是你可以回顾一切的地方。

This is where you can do whatever you want, right?

在这里你可以做任何你想做的事情，对吗？

Because no one is going to tell you, "Okay, time is up."

因为没有人会告诉你：“好吧，时间到了。”

Lenny Rachitsky: Right, and they're not impatient because they're like, "Okay, it's almost over.

Lenny Rachitsky：是的，他们并不不耐烦，因为他们会说，“好吧，快结束了。

Let's just let him finish."

我们就让他把话说完吧。”

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。

I love that.

我喜欢那个。

Speaking of stories, what's the wildest fundraising story that you've been through?

说到故事，您经历过的最疯狂的筹款故事是什么？

Is there one that comes to mind of like, "Holy shit.

有没有一个人会想到“天哪。

I can't believe that happened," or, "I can't believe that worked out"?

我不敢相信这件事发生了，”或者，“我不敢相信这成功了”？

Uri Levine: One of the earlier startups that I was guiding was about, eventually rolled into gift cards, but in Israel, when you return something to the store, you don't get your money back.

Uri Levine：我指导的早期初创公司之一最终变成了礼品卡，但在以色列，当你把东西退回商店时，你就拿不回钱了。

What you get is a gift card for that particular store, right, and obviously if you return something, then it's not necessarily that you have something to buy in the store and you ended up with having a gift card that is never being used, and so why not sell this gift card?

你得到的是特定商店的礼品卡，对吧，显然，如果你退货，那么不一定是你在商店里有东西要买，而且你最终得到的是一张从未使用过的礼品卡，那么为什么不卖掉这张礼品卡呢？

What happened is that I heard the story of the CEO and I thought that the story is not good enough, and I told him, "Look, you have to tell a better story," and asked, "Can you give me an example?" And I said, "Yeah, just imagine that," and then there was a long story about the microwave stuff working, and I bought a new one and really long, long, long story about with the details, right?

发生的事情是，我听了首席执行官的故事，我认为这个故事不够好，我告诉他，“听着，你必须讲一个更好的故事，”并问道，“你能给我一个例子吗？”我说，“是的，想象一下，”然后有一个关于微波炉工作原理的很长的故事，我买了一个新的，关于细节的非常长，长，长的故事，对吗？

How do you make a story make believe?

如何让一个故事变得可信？

With details.

有细节。

Right?

正确的？

The more details people think that this is real.

细节越多人们就认为这是真的。

Right?

正确的？

Uri Levine: If there are no details, then this is not real.

Uri Levine：如果没有细节，那么这不是真的。

So I told him this story that was like five minutes explaining, trying to fit the microwave into the closet and it didn't fit in into the cabinet, and it didn't fit in, and I had to return it to the box and so forth and whole story.

所以我告诉他这个故事，解释了大约五分钟，试图将微波炉放入壁橱，但它不适合柜子，它不适合，我不得不把它放回盒子等等，整个故事。

And then I spoke with an investor in Israel and I told him about this new company that I'm going to invest, and I told him the same story about this microwave, right, and he said, "This is interesting.

然后我和以色列的一位投资者交谈，我告诉他我要投资的这家新公司，我也告诉他关于这个微波炉的同样的故事，对吧，他说，“这很有趣。

I would like to meet the CEO." Then he met the CO and CEO told him exactly the same story about the microwave.

我想见见首席执行官。”然后他遇到了 CO，首席执行官向他讲述了关于微波炉的完全相同的故事。

When I tell that, this is my microwave, right?This is personal.

当我这么说时，这是我的微波炉，对吧？这是私人的。

This has happened to me.

这事就发生在我身上。

And so he told me, the investor called me up later, he said, "He told me exactly the same story." So that was really funny.

所以他告诉我，投资者后来给我打电话，他说，“他给我讲了完全相同的故事。”所以这真的很有趣。

Uri Levine: But at the end of the day, one of the things that makes story authentic is details, because otherwise it's not, right?

尤里·莱文：但归根结底，让故事真实的因素之一就是细节，否则就不是，对吧？

If you're going to tell me, okay, this is the use case of the product and you end up with explaining a use case in three lines, this is not authentic.

如果你要告诉我，好吧，这是产品的用例，而你最终用三行解释了用例，那么这是不真实的。

If you watch your real users, then what happens is that you actually, and you speak with them, then you have the audacity to tell a good story.

如果你观察真实的用户，那么你实际上并与他们交谈，然后你就有勇气讲一个好故事。

Really, really critical.

真的，真的很关键。

If you want to tell user story, these needs to be, real or you have to learn how to tell a story with many details.

如果你想讲述用户故事，这些故事必须是真实的，否则你必须学习如何讲述一个包含许多细节的故事。

Lenny Rachitsky: But interestingly, it sounds like the story itself doesn't have to have happened to you in real life.

Lenny Rachitsky：但有趣的是，听起来这个故事本身不一定发生在现实生活中。

It could be a made-up story, but with a lot of details is the lesson there.

这可能是一个编造的故事，但有很多细节是其中的教训。

Interesting.

有趣的。

Uri Levine: Yep.

尤里·莱文：是的。

If you tell it very briefly, then it doesn't sound right.

如果你说得非常简短，那么听起来就不对劲。

Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

Any other advice along those lines?

还有其他类似的建议吗？

I want to talk about two more chapters before we wrap up.

在结束之前我想再谈两章。

Is there anything else around fundraising that you think is important for people to know?

您认为关于筹款还有其他什么事情对于人们来说很重要吗？

Uri Levine: So I will tell you which chapters I would like to speak about.

Uri Levine：所以我会告诉你我想谈论哪些章节。

Lenny Rachitsky: Let's do it.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：让我们开始吧。

I wonder what they are.

我想知道它们是什么。

I wonder if they're the same.

我想知道它们是否相同。

Uri Levine: Understanding users and firing and hiring.

Uri Levine：了解用户以及解雇和招聘。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, firing and hiring.

Lenny Rachitsky：好的，解雇和招聘。

That was on my list.

那在我的名单上。

Okay.

好的。

Let's start there and then understanding users wasn't, but I'm excited to hear what you have to say there.

让我们从这里开始，然后了解用户不是，但我很高兴听到你在那里说的话。

Uri Levine: So I send the book proposal to many publisher, and there is one chapter that says firing and hiring, and many of them came back and say, "Oh, it should be hiring and firing." And I said, "No. Firing is hard decision.

乌里·莱文（Uri Levine）：所以我把这本书的提案发给了很多出版商，其中有一章提到了解雇和雇用，他们中的许多人回来说，“哦，应该是雇用和解雇。”我说：“不。解雇是一个艰难的决定。

Hiring is easy decisions." You have to first of all learn how to make the hard decisions.

招聘是很容易做出的决定。”您必须首先学习如何做出艰难的决定。

Now, the inspirations for this chapter came from many dialogues that I had with entrepreneurs that their startup failed, and I asked them, "Why, what happened?" And about half told me the team was not right, and I kept on asking, "Okay, what do you mean the team was not right?" And what I heard the most is, "We had this guy not good enough and this guy not good enough." So this is what I heard the most.

现在，本章的灵感来自于我与企业家的许多对话，他们的创业失败了，我问他们，“为什么，发生了什么？”大约一半的人告诉我团队不对劲，我继续问，“好吧，你说团队不对劲是什么意思？”我听到最多的是，“我们这个人不够好，这个人也不够好。”所以这是我听到最多的一句话。

Uri Levine: Another thing that I heard quite often is that we had communication issues, right?

Uri Levine：我经常听到的另一件事是我们存在沟通问题，对吧？

Something that I actually called ego management issues.

我实际上称之为自我管理问题。

And then asked them the most interesting question, "When did you know that the team is not right?" Now the answer was actually rather scary.

然后问了他们最有趣的问题，“你们什么时候知道团队不对？”现在的答案其实相当可怕。

All of them told me within the first month.

他们都在第一个月内告诉我。

Then you said, "Wait a minute.

然后你说：“等一下。

If you knew within the first month that the team is not right and you didn't do anything, the problem was not that the team was not right.

如果你在第一个月内就知道团队不对，而你什么也没做，那么问题不在于团队不对。

The problem was that the CEO did not make hard decision." Making hard decisions is hard.

问题在于首席执行官没有做出艰难的决定。”做出艰难的决定很困难。

Making easy decisions.

做出简单的决定。

This is why no one likes to make the hard decisions, because you need to live with the consequences.

这就是为什么没有人喜欢做出艰难的决定，因为你需要承担后果。

In a small place like a startup, the hard decisions will always go to the top.

在像初创公司这样的小地方，艰难的决定总是由高层决定。

Now, if the CEO does not make that hard decisions, the result is always the same.

现在，如果首席执行官不做出艰难的决定，结果总是一样的。

The top performing people would leave.

表现最好的人会离开。

Now, they would leave because they don't want to be in a place that is unable to make hard decisions and they have a choice.

现在，他们会离开，因为他们不想身处一个无法做出艰难决定的地方，而他们有选择。

Uri Levine: The nature of the beast is different.

尤里·莱文：野兽的本性是不同的。

Startup is a small organization.

初创公司是一个小型组织。

Just imagine that you are a small organization, like could be a team, whatever it is, right?

想象一下，您是一个小型组织，就像一个团队，无论它是什么，对吧？

10, 20, 30 people, and there is someone that shouldn't be there, and I don't care if that someone shouldn't be there because they are way underperforming or because they are assholes.

10、20、30 个人，其中有人不应该在那里，我不在乎这个人是否因为表现不佳或因为他们是混蛋而不应该在那里。

I don't really care.

我真的不在乎。

They shouldn't be there.

他们不应该在那里。

Everyone knows.

每个人都知道。

Everyone knows and the CEO doesn't do anything.

每个人都知道，但首席执行官什么也没做。

That's the nature of the beast and this is why top performing people would leave.

这就是野兽的本性，这就是为什么表现最好的人会离开。

Now, building a startup is really, really hard, right?

现在，建立一家初创公司真的非常非常困难，对吧？

It's hard if you have the right team, but if you have people that shouldn't be there that are still there and the top performing people are leaving, then it's going to be mission impossible.

如果你有合适的团队，这很难，但如果你有不应该在那里的人仍然在那里，而表现最好的人却离开了，那么这将是不可能完成的任务。

The conclusion of this chapter is really, really interesting.

本章的结论真的非常非常有趣。

If everyone knows within a month and every time that you hire someone new, what I really want you to do is mark your calendars for 30 days down the road and ask yourself one question, "Knowing what I know today, would I hire this person?"

如果一个月内每个人都知道，并且每次你雇用新人时，我真正希望你做的就是在未来 30 天的日历上标记并问自己一个问题：“知道我今天所知道的情况，我会雇用这个人吗？”

Uri Levine: At the end of the day, I'd like to nail that into yes or no, right?

Uri Levine：最终，我想确定是或否，对吗？

Because this is where decisions are being made easily.

因为这是很容易做出决定的地方。

If you ask yourself that question, if the answer is yes, then go to this person and tell them that you are really excited that they've joined, they are exceeding your expectations, and give them more equity, and you buy their loyalty for life.

如果你问自己这个问题，如果答案是肯定的，那么去找这个人，告诉他们你对他们的加入感到非常兴奋，他们超出了你的期望，并给他们更多的股权，你购买他们的终身忠诚。

If the answer is no, fire them immediately.

如果答案是否定的，请立即解雇他们。

They're already set on a trajectory of not being successful and they're creating damage to you, to the rest of the team and to themselves, right?

他们已经走上了一条不成功的道路，他们正在给你、团队的其他成员和他们自己造成伤害，对吗？

They deserve to be successful, but it's not going to happen here.

他们应该获得成功，但在这里不会发生。

They deserve to find someplace else that they can be successful, but it's not going to happen here, and that decision is really, really dramatic.

他们应该找到其他可以成功的地方，但在这里不会发生这种情况，这个决定真的非常戏剧性。

Uri Levine: Now, in many cases with hard decisions, we know what is the right decisions.

Uri Levine：现在，在许多艰难决策的情况下，我们知道什么是正确的决策。

We are looking for confirmation.

我们正在寻找确认。

If you look for confirmation, then go and speak with the top performing people and tell them, ask them the following, right?

如果你寻求确认，那就去与表现最好的人交谈并告诉他们，问他们以下问题，对吗？

"Assuming XYZ person is going to leave, how sore are you going to feel?" And you will be surprised that they are going to tell you, "Oh, it's not a big deal." This is your confirmation.

“假设 XYZ 人要离开，你会感到多么痛苦？”你会惊讶地发现他们会告诉你：“哦，这没什么大不了的。”这是您的确认。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。

We had Elizabeth Stone from Netflix, the CTO of Netflix on, and she talked about this thing they called a keeper test, which is exactly that, where every manager is always asking themselves, "If this person were to leave tomorrow and tell me they're leaving, would I fight to keep them?

我们邀请了来自 Netflix 的首席技术官伊丽莎白·斯通 (Elizabeth Stone)，她谈到了他们称之为“留任者测试”的事情，这正是每个经理总是问自己的问题：“如果这个人明天离开并告诉我他们要离开，我会努力留住他们吗？

And if not, I should just, I need to let them go," and that's always top of mind for managers there.

如果没有，我应该，我需要让他们离开，”这始终是那里的经理们最关心的问题。

Uri Levine: You know, one of my companies had a pretty good year and they decided to have an annual bonuses by and large to nearly all of the employees.

乌里·莱文（Uri Levine）：你知道，我的一家公司度过了相当不错的一年，他们决定向几乎所有员工发放年度奖金。

And then I asked the CEO, "So how did you end up with the list?" And he said, "Okay.

然后我问首席执行官：“那么你是如何得出这份名单的呢？”他说：“好吧。

We had these people that getting twice as much the others, and then the others, and then there are four people that are not going to get anything." And I asked them, "Are they still here?" They shouldn't be here, right?

我们这些人得到的钱是其他人的两倍，然后是其他人，然后还有四个人什么也得不到。”我问他们：“他们还在这里吗？”他们不应该在这里，对吧？

If they are so much underperforming, then they shouldn't be here.

如果他们表现如此糟糕，那么他们就不应该在这里。

But generally you need the time to ask yourself the tough questions because only then you can answer them, right?

但通常你需要时间问自己一些棘手的问题，因为只有这样你才能回答它们，对吗？

If you don't ask the tough questions, then you don't answer them.

如果你不问棘手的问题，那么你就不会回答它们。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。

I really love this very tactical piece of advice, which I was definitely going to touch on, of putting a calendar entry into your calendar when you hire someone 30 days in to remind yourself, asking yourself, "Would I hire this person knowing what I know now?

我真的很喜欢这个非常战术性的建议，我肯定会提到它，当你雇用某人 30 天时，在你的日历中添加一个日历条目来提醒自己，问自己，“如果我知道我现在所知道的，我会雇用这个人吗？

And if not, you should probably let them go."

如果没有，你也许应该让他们走。”

Uri Levine: By the way, I can tell you that for everything in your life, right?

Uri Levine：顺便说一句，我可以告诉你这一点，适用于你生活中的一切，对吗？

Everything in your life, ask yourself, "Knowing what you know today, would you do something different?"

在你生活中的每一件事上，问问自己，“知道你今天所知道的，你会做一些不同的事情吗？”

Uri Levine: If the answer is yes, then do something different today.

Uri Levine：如果答案是肯定的，那么今天就做一些不同的事情。

Today is the first day of the rest of your life.

今天是你余生的第一天。

Lenny Rachitsky: That is powerful advice.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个强有力的建议。

So what I'm thinking there is if I bought something, maybe return it.

所以我想如果我买了东西，也许可以退货。

What else have you applied that to in your life?

你在生活中还把它应用到了什么方面？

Uri Levine: Relationship in general.

尤里·莱文：一般关系。

Directions that you're going, right?

你要去的方向，对吗？

Do you still like that?

你还喜欢那样吗？

I have five children and they're all in their twenties and beginning of thirties and they struggle with their career path, and I basically tell them, "Look, if you are going to work in a place and you don't like it, then what I want you to do is ask yourself why you are not liking it and whether or not there is something that you can change, and I'm going to ask you the same question in 90 days from now, and if this still is the case, then quit."

我有五个孩子，他们都在二十多岁和三十岁出头，他们在自己的职业道路上挣扎，我基本上告诉他们，“看，如果你要在一个地方工作，但你不喜欢它，那么我希望你做的是问问自己为什么不喜欢它，以及是否有什么可以改变，从现在开始的 90 天内我会问你同样的问题，如果情况仍然如此，那就辞职。”

Lenny Rachitsky: It's interestingly you make that 90 days, which it kind of applies some decisions.

Lenny Rachitsky：有趣的是，你做了 90 天，这在某种程度上适用了一些决定。

You need to wait a little bit more.

您需要再等一下。

You need more data.

您需要更多数据。

You need more time than necessarily 30 days, but set some kind of timeline.

您需要的时间不一定是 30 天，但要设定某种时间表。

Uri Levine: If you don't set a timeline, it'll never happen.

Uri Levine：如果你不设定时间表，它就永远不会发生。

Lenny Rachitsky: I think the other really interesting implication here is most decisions are a two-way door.

Lenny Rachitsky：我认为这里另一个真正有趣的含义是大多数决策都是双向的。

Most decisions, you can change your mind.

大多数决定，您都可以改变主意。

You can quit.

你可以退出了。

You can leave a relationship.

你可以离开一段关系。

I was thinking you were going to say with your five kids 30 days after they're born, "Do I still want this kid 30 days with knowing what I know now?" I'm glad you didn't go there.

我以为你会在你的五个孩子出生 30 天后对他们说：“在知道我现在所知道的情况下，我还想要这个孩子 30 天吗？”我很高兴你没有去那里。

Uri Levine: No, this is different, right?

尤里·莱文：不，这是不同的，对吧？

You go into this journey of having children with the understanding that this is long journey.

当你踏上生孩子的旅程时，你会明白这是一个漫长的旅程。

Go into this journey of building a startup with the understanding that this is a long journey, right?

踏上创业之旅，要明白这是一个漫长的旅程，对吗？

The fact that it's going to be hard?

事实上这会很难吗？

Okay, so it's hard.

好吧，所以很难。

It is hard, by the way.

顺便说一句，这很难。

But yeah, the decisions that obviously they need to be relative to their duration, right?

但是，是的，显然他们需要做出与其持续时间相关的决定，对吗？

So yeah, raising kids is a long journey.

所以，是的，抚养孩子是一个漫长的旅程。

Lenny Rachitsky: And a one-way door, also.

Lenny Rachitsky：还有一扇单向门。

Is there anything else you wanted to say around the hiring and firing concept?

关于招聘和解雇的概念您还有什么想说的吗？

Clearly firing is the main lesson here, is get really good at firing, firing quickly and decisively.

显然，射击是这里的主要课程，就是要真正擅长射击，快速而果断地射击。

Uri Levine: You know, there are tons of advices in the book and eventually I will tell, even in the hiring process, right, most of us are going to interview candidates and then decide that they like or dislike the candidate, but they don't know.

Uri Levine：你知道，书中有很多建议，最终我会告诉你，即使在招聘过程中，对吧，我们大多数人都会面试候选人，然后决定他们喜欢或不喜欢该候选人，但他们不知道。

Then speak with someone that does know.

然后与认识的人交谈。

Speak with the reference.

与参考说话。

Lenny Rachitsky: Do you have a favorite question you like to ask references?

Lenny Rachitsky：您有最喜欢向参考人士询问的问题吗？

Is there something that you find is really helpful to tell you?

您觉得有什么事情可以告诉您确实有帮助吗？

Give you honest insight?

给你诚实的见解吗？

Uri Levine: That's really simple.

尤里·莱文：这真的很简单。

Would you hire him?

你会雇用他吗？

Or would you hire her, right?

或者你会雇用她，对吗？

So essentially at the end of the day you want to nail it into yes or no.

因此，本质上，在一天结束时，您需要确定是或否。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。

And hope that they're being honest.

并希望他们是诚实的。

That's sometimes a challenge.

这有时是一个挑战。

Uri Levine: No, if they will tell me yes, then I would ask them, "Why didn't you?" Someone asked me for a reference on someone that I really enjoyed working with.

乌里·莱文：不，如果他们告诉我是，那么我会问他们，“你为什么不呢？”有人向我推荐一位我非常喜欢共事的人。

I really think highly of them, and he asked me if they can schedule a call for half an hour and I said, "Look, I'm traveling.

我真的很欣赏他们，他问我是否可以安排半个小时的通话，我说：“听着，我正在旅行。

I don't really have time.

我实在没有时间。

But if you want an email in one word, take the guy." And then he was trying to outsmart and ask me back, "Can I have that in two words?" And I said, "Yeah, take the guy fast." When you know, you know.

但如果你想要一封简短的电子邮件，那就找那个人吧。”然后他试图智取我并反问我：“我可以用两个词来表达吗？”我说：“是的，快点带上他。”当你知道的时候，你就知道了。

That's it.

就是这样。

Lenny Rachitsky: I like that.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢这样。

That's what you want to be looking for.

这就是您想要寻找的。

Okay.

好的。

Amazing.

惊人的。

So let's do one more chapter.

那么让我们再写一章吧。

The one I was going to pick, you choose what you're more excited about, is selling a company.

我要选择的，你选择你更兴奋的事情，就是出售一家公司。

Your last chapter exit.

你的最后一章退出。

The one you were thinking about going to is talking to users.

您正在考虑去与用户交谈。

I imagine that's much more applicable to more people, so that's probably the better choice, but your choice.

我认为这更适用于更多的人，所以这可能是更好的选择，但你的选择。

Uri Levine: Okay, then let's stick with understanding users.

Uri Levine：好的，那么让我们继续理解用户。

Steve Wozniak, co-founder of Apple, wrote the foreword to my book and he called it the Bible for entrepreneurs, and when I sent him the first chapter, he said, "Wow, I wish I had that When I started." I met Steve Wozniak for the first time about 10 years ago.

苹果公司联合创始人史蒂夫·沃兹尼亚克（Steve Wozniak）为我的书写了前言，他称其为企业家的圣经，当我把第一章寄给他时，他说：“哇，我希望我在开始的时候就有这样的书。”大约十年前，我第一次见到史蒂夫·沃兹尼亚克。

We spoke at the same conference in Guatemala, and look, when I grew up, Steve Wozniak was my technological guru, right so he was the most important person in the technology space in my mind.

我们在危地马拉的同一个会议上发表了讲话，看，当我长大时，史蒂夫·沃兹尼亚克是我的技术大师，所以他是我心目中技术领域最重要的人。

And then we spoke at the same conference and we had dinner the night before, and the only thing that actually was really important for me is to have a selfie with my idol, right?

然后我们在同一个会议上发言，前一天晚上我们共进晚餐，对我来说唯一真正重要的事情就是和我的偶像来一张自拍照，对吧？

And so I took up my iPhone and with the iPhone you can take pictures by clicking here on the screen or using the volume button on the side, right?

于是我拿起我的 iPhone，使用 iPhone，你可以通过点击屏幕上的此处或使用侧面的音量按钮来拍照，对吗？

Uri Levine: And so I took a selfie with him holding the phone like that and clicking on the volume button and he said, "Finally." And I said, "Finally what?" "Finally someone using it the way that I meant it to be." Now you realize that there is no right or wrong.

乌里·莱文（Uri Levine）：所以我拍了一张自拍照，他就这样拿着手机，点击音量按钮，他说，“终于了。”我说：“最后呢？” “终于有人按照我的意思使用它了。”现在你意识到没有对或错。

There are different people that are using different products in different ways, and occasionally if I would have large audience, then I would ask the people, "Okay, how do you use Waze?" Right?

不同的人以不同的方式使用不同的产品，有时，如果我有大量受众，那么我会问人们，“好吧，你们如何使用位智？”正确的？

"So you go to your destination and you enter destination, and then Waze guides you through the screen with the display of the maneuvers that needs to be made or with the audio guidance of turn right, turn left and so forth.

“所以你到达目的地并输入目的地，然后位智会在屏幕上引导你，显示需要进行的操作，或者通过右转、左转等音频指导。

If you are watching the screen, raise your hand." And then I would have about 70% of the people raise their hand." Then I ask people to watch around them and see those people.

如果你正在看屏幕，请举手。”然后我会让大约 70% 的人举手。”然后我要求人们观察他们周围并看到那些人。

Then I ask, "If you are listening to the audio prompt, raise your hand." Then I have about 20 or 30 more percent of the people raising their hand.

然后我问：“如果您正在听音频提示，请举手。”然后大约有 20% 或 30% 的人举手了。

And again, I send people to watch around and see those hands.

我再次派人四处观察，看看那些手。

Uri Levine: There is no right or wrong.

尤里·莱文：没有对错之分。

Different people are using it differently.

不同的人使用它的方式不同。

Now, if you are using Waze in a certain way, up until this moment, you didn't know that there are other people that are using it differently, and to be frank, you don't care.

现在，如果你以某种方式使用位智，直到此刻，你并不知道还有其他人以不同的方式使用它，坦率地说，你不在乎。

You getting your own value the way that you get it, then you don't really care that there are other people that are getting it differently.

你以自己的方式获得自己的价值，然后你就不会真正关心其他人以不同的方式获得它。

But if you are building a product and you don't know that, then you are building the wrong product.

但如果你正在构建一个产品而你却不知道这一点，那么你就构建了错误的产品。

You don't know that there are other people that are not like you, and you think that you're building the product for yourself, then you're making a big mistake.

你不知道还有其他人与你不同，并且你认为你是在为自己构建产品，那么你就犯了一个大错误。

And the way to figure it out is, by the way, two things.

顺便说一句，解决这个问题的方法有两件事。

Number one, watch new users.

第一，关注新用户。

Simply watch users and see what they're doing.

只需观察用户并了解他们在做什么。

And number two, if they're not doing what you expect them to do, then ask them why, because this why is the one that is going to make your product successful.

第二，如果他们没有做你期望他们做的事情，那么问他们为什么，因为这个原因将使你的产品成功。

You understand the why and the next version you're going to address that.

您了解原因以及您将在下一个版本中解决该问题。

Uri Levine: Now, this is in particular when it comes to understanding users.

Uri Levine：现在，尤其是在了解用户方面。

Obviously there are a lot of users, but we can group them into several groups of their ability to adapt something new, and something new is not necessarily new technology.

显然有很多用户，但我们可以根据他们适应新事物的能力将他们分为几组，而新事物不一定是新技术。

We think about it as a new technology, but it's not necessarily about technology.

我们将其视为一项新技术，但它不一定与技术有关。

It's about new behavior, right?

这是关于新的行为，对吗？

And then we look at the entire population and every time that we look into large numbers, they will have normal distribution, right?

然后我们查看整个总体，每次我们查看大量数据时，它们都会服从正态分布，对吗？

So the bell curve of the distribution, and then we will have about 2% of the populations that they're the innovatives.

因此，分布呈钟形曲线，然后我们将有大约 2% 的人口认为他们是创新者。

The innovatives are going to use something new because it's new.

创新者将使用新的东西，因为它是新的。

That's it.

就是这样。

They care about this subject and they going to be the first one to hear about it and they're going to try that out because it's new.

他们关心这个主题，他们将是第一个听到这个主题的人，他们将尝试一下，因为它是新的。

The second group is usually what we will get to see as the first users are the early adapters.

第二组通常是我们会看到的，因为第一批用户是早期的适配器。

As soon as they realize that there is value, they're going to give it a try.

一旦他们意识到它的价值，他们就会尝试一下。

And if there is value, then they will keep on using it, and if there is no value, then they will quit.

如果有价值，他们就会继续使用，如果没有价值，他们就会退出。

Right?

对吗？

Uri Levine: The third group is the most important group.

Uri Levine：第三组是最重要的一组。

This is where market leaders are, right?

这就是市场领导者所在的地方，对吗？

This is called the early majority.

这被称为早期多数。

This is about one third of the population, and the one that wins the early majority wins the market.

这大约占人口的三分之一，赢得早期多数的人就赢得了市场。

The challenge with this group, with the people in this group, is that they're afraid of change.

这个群体和这个群体中的人面临的挑战是他们害怕改变。

So their state of mind is, don't rock the boat.

所以他们的心态是，不要破坏现状。

Whatever I'm currently doing is good enough for me.

无论我现在做什么对我来说都足够了。

So if you have Salesforce.com, which is absolutely amazing, their reaction is going to be, "What's wrong with Excel?" And because they're afraid of change, they are not going to try something new.

因此，如果您拥有绝对令人惊叹的 Salesforce.com，他们的反应将会是：“Excel 出了什么问题？”因为他们害怕改变，所以他们不会尝试新的东西。

Now the reason is that at the end of the day, they're afraid that this is going to be too complex for them and they will not get it, and they don't want to be embarrassed and they don't want to feel like idiots.

现在的原因是，归根结底，他们担心这对他们来说太复杂了，他们无法理解，他们不想感到尴尬，也不想感觉自己像个白痴。

And guess what?

你猜怎么着？

People don't like to feel like idiots, and so they are not going to try.

人们不喜欢感觉自己像个白痴，所以他们不会去尝试。

And you need to see those people to understand their barriers for starting to use your service.

您需要见到这些人，了解他们开始使用您的服务的障碍。

Uri Levine: And by the way, the solution is always the same.

Uri Levine：顺便说一句，解决方案总是相同的。

Simplicity.

简单。

Leonardo da Vinci said that simplicity is the ultimate sophistication.

列奥纳多·达·芬奇说过，简单就是终极的复杂。

If you want to make it simple, in your journey of building a product, we basically say this is iteration to iteration to iteration.

如果你想简单一点，在构建产品的过程中，我们基本上说这是迭代到迭代。

In many of those you add features and you add features and you add features until you all of a sudden you add the features that people are using.

在其中许多功能中，您不断添加功能，不断添加功能，直到突然添加人们正在使用的功能。

What you really want to do next is remove the rest of the features that people are not using because they're adding complexity.

接下来您真正想做的是删除人们不使用的其余功能，因为它们增加了复杂性。

Now, most of the product owners, they're either innovators or early adopters.

现在，大多数产品所有者要么是创新者，要么是早期采用者。

You cannot understand an early majority person.

你无法理解早期多数人。

If you belong to one group, you cannot understand a person from that group unless you watch them and .

如果你属于一个群体，除非你观察他们，否则你无法理解该群体中的人。

So the most important part of understanding users is actually seeing those users.

因此，了解用户最重要的部分是实际看到这些用户。

And they are not wrong.

他们并没有错。

This is how they behave.

这就是他们的行为方式。

Lenny Rachitsky: So a couple of threads there I'll pull out.

Lenny Rachitsky：所以我会抽出一些线索。

One is look for surprising uses of your product because, as you said, you'll realize, "Oh, some people are using this in a way that I didn't expect," and it'll remind you people are not the way you are and don't assume that they're going to want exactly what you're building, so pay attention to things that surprise you.

一是寻找你的产品的令人惊讶的用途，因为正如你所说，你会意识到，“哦，有些人正在以一种我没有想到的方式使用它，”它会提醒你，人们不是你这样的人，不要假设他们会完全想要你正在构建的东西，所以要注意那些让你惊讶的事情。

We had Jeffrey Moore on the podcast and he talked through a lot of this stuff, and one of the lessons there to help you bridge that gap from, to the, what is it, the third group?

我们的播客中有杰弗里·摩尔（Jeffrey Moore），他讲了很多这样的东西，其中一个课程可以帮助您弥合与第三组之间的差距，这是什么？

How did you describe it?

你是如何描述的？

The late majority?

晚期大多数？

Uri Levine: Late majority will never use the product.

Uri Levine：晚期大多数人永远不会使用该产品。

They will use your product only if they have to.

他们只有在必要时才会使用您的产品。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。

The laggards, I think he calls it.

我想他这样称呼它为落后者。

They look for basically references.

他们基本上寻找参考资料。

People telling them, "Hey, you really need to use this." A lot of people, just like basically word-of-mouth is the way you described it.

人们告诉他们，“嘿，你真的需要使用这个。”很多人，就像基本上口碑就是你描述的那样。

Uri Levine: No, not just word-of-mouth.

Uri Levine：不，不仅仅是口碑。

Even occasionally someone to show them how to use it.

甚至偶尔有人向他们展示如何使用它。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。

That makes sense.

这是有道理的。

Just like, "Here, check out Waze.

就像，“在这里，看看位智。

Here's how it works." Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

这就是它的工作原理。”是的，这很有道理。

Okay.

好的。

Amazing.

太棒了。

Is there anything else along those lines as you're talking to customers and understanding what you're looking for that you want to share?

当您与客户交谈并了解您正在寻找的内容时，是否还有其他想要分享的内容？

Uri Levine: Occasionally what happens is that we speak with the wrong customers.

Uri Levine：有时我们会与错误的客户交谈。

So just imagine that we have what I call funnel of use, right?

所以想象一下我们有我所说的使用漏斗，对吧？

So on top of the funnel, we have people that are download the app, let's say, or have entered their website, and then the next phase is that they registered and the next phase that they're trying to use it for the first time and then the next phase is that they're getting the value and they're coming back, right?

因此，在渠道的顶部，我们有人下载应用程序，比如说，或者已经进入他们的网站，然后下一阶段是他们注册，下一阶段是他们第一次尝试使用它，然后下一阶段是他们获得价值并且他们会回来，对吗？

In this funnel, what we usually try to do is speak with the users at the bottom of the funnels, those that were successful.

在这个漏斗中，我们通常尝试做的是与漏斗底部的用户（那些成功的用户）交谈。

But in order to improve, we need to speak with those that fail, those that were unsuccessful, those that did not register, or they did register and did not use, or they did use and did not come back, because they know something that we really need to know.

但为了改进，我们需要与那些失败的人、那些不成功的人、那些没有注册的人、或者他们注册了但没有使用的人、或者他们使用了但没有回来的人交谈，因为他们知道一些我们真正需要知道的东西。

Why?

为什么？

This why is what makes a great product.

这就是为什么创造出伟大的产品。

Lenny Rachitsky: Interesting.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：有趣。

I imagine you could also fall into danger there if people that just aren't a fit for your product, there's just no point wasting your time on people that are just not going to be a fit.

我想如果有人不适合你的产品，你也可能会陷入危险，没有必要把时间浪费在不适合你的产品的人身上。

So is the idea there find people that are really far down the funnel but still bounced and churned?

那么，这个想法是不是要找到那些真正处于漏斗底部但仍然跳出和流失的人呢？

Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

Amazing.

太棒了。

Okay.

好的。

So we've gone through all the chapters I was hoping to go through, plus the ones you were excited about.

我们已经完成了我希望完成的所有章节，以及你感兴趣的章节。

Final thing before we get to our very exciting lightning round, we have a segment on this podcast called Fail Corner, where I ask a guest to share a time they failed in their career and what they learned from that experience, and I'm curious if there is a story that comes to mind of a time that you failed either in a startup or as you were an employee somewhere and how that was important to you.

在我们进入令人兴奋的闪电回合之前，我们在这个播客上有一个名为“失败角”的片段，其中我要求一位嘉宾分享他们职业生涯中失败的一次经历以及他们从这次经历中学到的东西，我很好奇是否有一个故事浮现在你的脑海中，无论是在初创公司还是在某个地方担任员工时失败了，以及这对你来说有多重要。

Uri Levine: So number one, I reserve the right for my biggest failure yet to come.

尤里·莱文（Uri Levine）：第一，我保留未来最大失败的权利。

And look, I keep on trying new things.

看，我一直在尝试新事物。

I keep on doing things, and so eventually I will fail as much as...

我继续做事，所以最终我会失败……

Maybe I'm more successful statistically than others, but I will fail, and this is very, very important part to realize.

也许我在统计上比其他人更成功，但我会失败，这是需要意识到的非常非常重要的部分。

Don't be afraid to fail, right?

不要害怕失败，对吗？

In your journey, you're going to fail multiple times, and when you fail and get up, you get up stronger.

在你的旅程中，你会多次失败，当你失败并站起来时，你会变得更坚强。

This is maybe something that I will tell all the parents in the world.

这也许是我要告诉全世界所有父母的事情。

The biggest advice that I can give you is teach your children to fail.

我能给你的最大建议就是教导你的孩子失败。

Because when they get up, they get up stronger, and when they know that they will get out of their comfort zone and they will eventually discover what makes them happy.

因为当他们站起来时，他们会变得更坚强，当他们知道自己将走出舒适区时，他们最终会发现是什么让他们快乐。

At the end of the day, as parents, there's only one thing that we really like.

归根结底，作为父母，我们真正喜欢的只有一件事。

We want our kids to be happy in their own way.

我们希望我们的孩子以自己的方式快乐。

We don't know what it is.

我们不知道它是什么。

They don't know what it is.

他们不知道那是什么。

We want them to explore, and they will only explore if they are not afraid to fail.

我们希望他们去探索，只有不怕失败他们才会去探索。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。

This is a very timely advice for me because our kid is always falling down and it's always this balance between helping them not fall and letting them figure things out.

这对我来说是一个非常及时的建议，因为我们的孩子总是会摔倒，而帮助他们不摔倒和让他们解决问题之间总是要保持平衡。

Uri Levine: Let them fall.

尤里·莱文：让他们倒下吧。

There is a Japanese saying, fall seven times and get up eight.

日本有句俗话，跌倒七次，爬起来八次。

Lenny Rachitsky: Uri, is there anything else that you wanted to share or leave listeners with before we get to our very exciting lightning round?

Lenny Rachitsky：Uri，在我们开始激动人心的闪电回合之前，您还有什么想与听众分享或留给听众的吗？

Uri Levine: No, I think that was actually, I really enjoyed it.

Uri Levine：不，我认为实际上，我真的很喜欢它。

Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

Well, we're not done yet.

好吧，我们还没有完成。

We've reached our very exciting lightning round.

我们已经进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。

Are you ready?

你准备好了吗？

Lenny Rachitsky: All right.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

First question, what are two or three books that you recommended most to other people other than your own book?

第一个问题，除了你自己的书之外，你向其他人推荐最多的两三本书是什么？

Uri Levine: Mark Randolph of Netflix.

尤里·莱文：Netflix 的马克·兰道夫。

That Will Never Work, right?

那永远不会起作用，对吗？

And by the way, it's funny.

顺便说一句，这很有趣。

Mark Randolph wrote endorsement to my book and I reached out to him because I read someplace that he's answering all of his emails, and I reached, I sent him an email and said, "Look, we have at least three things in common.

马克·伦道夫为我的书写了背书，我联系了他，因为我在某个地方读到他正在回复所有电子邮件，然后我联系了他，给他发了一封电子邮件，说：“看，我们至少有三个共同点。

Number one, I do answer all of my emails as well.

第一，我也会回复所有电子邮件。

Number two, I'm using your product, you are using mine.

第二，我正在使用你的产品，你正在使用我的产品。

And number three, I heard more time that will never work than you did." And I think that understanding this journey is really, really important, so this is definitely a book that I would recommend.

第三，我听说比你更多的时间是行不通的。”我认为理解这段旅程真的非常重要，所以这绝对是我会推荐的一本书。

Atomic Habits.

原子习惯。

Getting habits and improving them, measuring and improving, is really, really important.

养成习惯并改进它们，衡量和改进，真的非常重要。

Lenny Rachitsky: Very cool choices.

Lenny Rachitsky：非常酷的选择。

Do you have a favorite recent movie or TV show that you've really enjoyed?

您最近有最喜欢的电影或电视节目吗？

Lenny Rachitsky: Easy, then.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：那么，简单吧。

Do you have a favorite product that you've recently discovered that you really love?

您最近发现有一款您真正喜欢的最喜欢的产品吗？

Uri Levine: So I can bet that most of the people say the ChatGPT, but actually no. I recently downloaded the Chess App and I returned to play chess with the computer or something that I haven't done for so many years, and I really enjoy that.

Uri Levine：所以我可以打赌大多数人都会说 ChatGPT，但实际上不是。我最近下载了象棋应用程序，我又回来用电脑下棋或者做一些我多年没有做过的事情，我真的很喜欢。

Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

It's actually, I don't think ChatGPT has ever been recommended.

事实上，我认为 ChatGPT 从未被推荐过。

Recent choices have been a beautiful Persian rug, a Rivian, a very nice Mercedes, and I think recently it was a course on nervous system regulation.

最近的选择是漂亮的波斯地毯、Rivian、非常漂亮的梅赛德斯，我想最近这是一门关于神经系统调节的课程。

Lenny Rachitsky: All over the place.

Lenny Rachitsky：到处都是。

Two final questions.

最后两个问题。

Do you have a favorite life motto that you find really useful in work, your own life?

您是否有最喜欢的人生格言，并且您认为这对您的工作和生活非常有用？

It may be the one on your shirt, but is there any other that you come back to often and find useful?

它可能是您衬衫上的那个，但是还有其他您经常回来使用并发现有用的吗？

Uri Levine: Don't be afraid to fail.

尤里·莱文：不要害怕失败。

I think that in many cases we need to accept the fact that we don't know.

我认为在很多情况下我们需要接受我们不知道的事实。

Lenny Rachitsky: Important words.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：重要的话。

Final question, is there a problem you're starting to fall in love with more recently, maybe tinkering with a new startup idea?

最后一个问题，您最近是否开始爱上一个问题，也许是在修改一个新的创业想法？

Or are you done with starting companies?

或者你已经完成了创办公司的工作了吗？

Uri Levine: I probably will never be done.

尤里·莱文：我可能永远不会完成。

I have 10 different startups in multiple areas.

我在多个领域拥有 10 家不同的初创公司。

One of them, Pontera helps people to retire richer, which is one of the biggest challenges in the world in general, but also in the U.S. If I would ask a hundred people on the street that have 401k plans, "What is your 401k plan invested at?" 95% of them will tell me, "I don't know." I do know, by the way.

其中之一，Pontera 帮助人们更加富有地退休，这是世界上最大的挑战之一，也是美国面临的最大挑战之一。如果我问街上一百个拥有 401k 计划的人，“你的 401k 计划投资了什么？” 95％的人会告诉我：“我不知道。”顺便说一句，我知道。

In the default.

在默认情况下。

Whatever was the default when they joined, right?

无论他们加入时的默认设置是什么，对吧？

Now obviously if you didn't do anything and you think it's right, no, it's not right.

显然，如果你什么都没做，而你认为这是对的，那么不，那是不对的。

It's probably simply not enough.

这可能还不够。

So this is a big problem.

所以这是一个大问题。

I have one in the medical space that is trying to create, I would call that the AI of the medical knowledge, so trying to improve doctors, and in particular in clinical decisions.

我在医疗领域正在尝试创建一个人工智能，我将其称为医学知识的人工智能，以试图改善医生，特别是在临床决策方面。

That is going to change the world.

这将改变世界。

Uri Levine: But if you would ask me, then I will give you some examples, right?

Uri Levine：但是如果你问我，那么我会给你一些例子，对吧？

So mobility is still a problem, right?

所以流动性仍然是一个问题，对吗？

You look at many areas in our lifetime and mobility is still, every year it's, instead of getting better, it's getting lesser.

你看看我们一生中的许多领域，流动性仍然如此，每年都在减少，而不是变得更好。

So mobility is still a problem.

所以流动性仍然是一个问题。

And medical services, right?

还有医疗服务，对吧？

U.S. medical services are five to 10 times more expensive than they are in Germany.

美国的医疗服务比德国贵五到十倍。

Now, it's not that they're better.

现在，并不是说他们更好了。

They're simply more expensive.

它们只是更贵。

So obviously you ask yourself, "Okay, where is this inefficiency?

很明显，你会问自己：“好吧，低效率在哪里？

Where is it?" Right?

它在哪里？”对吗？

A lot of places of inefficiency in the medical services if they're so expensive.

很多地方的医疗服务效率低下，如果它们太贵的话。

Education.

教育。

Okay.

好的。

Anything that I will tell you that we are still doing the same way that our parents did is probably something that we need to revisit.

我要告诉你的是，我们仍然在做我们父母所做的事情，这可能是我们需要重新审视的事情。

Lenny Rachitsky: I feel like I nerd sniped you with falling in love with problems.

Lenny Rachitsky：我觉得我是个书呆子，因为你爱上了问题而狙击了你。

Clearly fall in love with a lot of problems.

显然爱上了很多问题。

You want to solve them all.

你想把它们全部解决。

You're addicted to startups.

你对初创公司上瘾了。

Uri Levine: The good news is that there are a lot of problems and the bad news that there are lots of problems.

乌里·莱文：好消息是存在很多问题，坏消息是存在很多问题。

Lenny Rachitsky: And you're there to solve it.

Lenny Rachitsky：你是来解决这个问题的。

I love it.

我喜欢它。

Uri, your book is amazing.

乌里，你的书太棒了。

It's incredibly practical, full of tons of advice that every founder should read, and it goes from idea all the way to exit.

它非常实用，充满了每个创始人都应该阅读的大量建议，并且它从想法一直到退出。

So basically, no matter where you're on the journey, the book is going to be useful to you.

所以基本上，无论您处于旅程的哪个阶段，这本书都会对您有用。

Tell people where to find it and where they can follow you for more stuff that you share over time, and then how can listeners be useful to you?

告诉人们在哪里可以找到它以及他们可以在哪里关注您以获取您随着时间的推移分享的更多内容，然后听众如何对您有用？

Uri Levine: So obviously this is the book.

尤里·莱文（Uri Levine）：显然这就是这本书。

Amazon, Barnes & Noble, basically places that you can find it.

亚马逊、巴诺书店，基本上你都能找到它。

You can follow me on LinkedIn.

您可以在 LinkedIn 上关注我。

This is pretty much the only network that I'm actually engaged.

这几乎是我真正参与的唯一网络。

If you read the book, then you will find my email in the book and then you can email me, as well.

如果你读过这本书，那么你会在书中找到我的电子邮件，然后你也可以给我发电子邮件。

And I do answer all of my emails.

我确实回复了所有电子邮件。

I want you to read the book.

我想让你读这本书。

I don't want you to buy the book.

我不想让你买这本书。

I want you to read the book.

我想让你读这本书。

And the reason is that I have a purpose in life and this is creating value, and I believe that this book is going to be the best return on investment that you ever made.

原因是我的人生有一个目标，这就是创造价值，我相信这本书将是你有史以来最好的投资回报。

Not the $20 or $30 that it costs, but the time that you're going to spend on reading it, and therefore, I can be valuable for you, and if I can be valuable for you, then I serve my purpose.

不是它花费的 20 或 30 美元，而是你要花在阅读它上的时间，因此，我对你来说是有价值的，如果我对你有价值，那么我就达到了我的目的。

Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

If you weren't on YouTube watching this, the book is called Fall in Love with the Problem, Not the Solution, if you're trying to Google it and find that on Amazon.

如果你没有在 YouTube 上观看这本书，如果你尝试用 Google 搜索并在亚马逊上找到这本书，那么这本书的名字叫《爱上问题，而不是解决方案》。

And Uri, thank you so much for being here.

乌里，非常感谢你来到这里。

Lenny Rachitsky: Bye, everyone.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：再见，大家。

Thank you so much for listening.

非常感谢您的聆听。

If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.

如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at Lennyspodcast.com.

您可以在 Lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。