Why AI is disrupting traditional product management | Tomer Cohen (LinkedIn CPO)
Tomer Cohen: When we look at the skills required to do your job, by 2030, it will change by 70%.
Tomer Cohen：当我们审视工作所需的技能时，到 2030 年，情况将发生 70% 的变化。
So whether or not you're looking to change your job, your job is changing.
因此，无论您是否想换工作，您的工作都在发生变化。
In order to stay competitive, you actually have to go back to some first principles, go back to the drawing board and reimagine what it means to be building.
为了保持竞争力，你实际上必须回到一些首要原则，回到绘图板并重新想象构建的意义。
Lenny Rachitsky: You're experimenting with a very different way of building product at LinkedIn that fully embraces what AI unlocks.
Lenny Rachitsky：您正在 LinkedIn 尝试一种非常不同的方式来构建产品，完全拥抱人工智能所解锁的功能。
Tomer Cohen: We call it the full stack builder model.
Tomer Cohen：我们称之为全栈构建器模型。
The goal itself is to empower great builders to take their idea and to take it to market, regardless of their role and the stack and which team they're on.
目标本身是让伟大的构建者能够将他们的想法推向市场，无论他们的角色、堆栈以及他们属于哪个团队。
It's really fluid interaction between human and machine.
这确实是人与机器之间流畅的交互。
Lenny Rachitsky: This feels like this could be a model for how a lot of companies operate and how product ends up being built in the future.
Lenny Rachitsky：感觉这可能成为许多公司如何运营以及未来如何构建产品的模型。
Tomer Cohen: Change management here is going to be a critical part, but it's not enough to give them the tools.
Tomer Cohen：变革管理将是一个关键部分，但仅仅为他们提供工具还不够。
You have to build the incentives programs, the motivation, the examples to how you do it.
你必须建立激励计划、动机以及如何做到这一点的例子。
I see a lot of companies roll out their agents and just expecting companies to adopt.
我看到很多公司推出了他们的代理，只是期待公司采用。
It doesn't work this way.
这是行不通的。
Lenny Rachitsky: There's always been this question, is AI going to just make people that are not amazing, more amazing, or is it going to make amazing people even more amazing?
Lenny Rachitsky：一直有这样一个问题，人工智能是否只会让那些并不令人惊奇的人变得更加令人惊奇，或者它会让令人惊奇的人变得更加令人惊奇？
Tomer Cohen: Top talent has this tendency of continuously trying to get better at their craft.
托默·科恩：顶尖人才有不断努力提高自己技艺的倾向。
The key trait that I'm emphasizing for builders is...
我对建筑商强调的关键特征是……
Lenny Rachitsky: Today, my guest is Tomer Cohen, longtime chief product officer at LinkedIn, who is piloting a new way of building that I think will become a model for how companies operate in the future.
Lenny Rachitsky：今天，我的嘉宾是 LinkedIn 的长期首席产品官托默·科恩 (Tomer Cohen)，他正在试验一种新的构建方式，我认为这种方式将成为公司未来运营的典范。
It's called the Full Stack Builder Program, and essentially the idea is to enable anyone, no matter their function, to take products from idea to launch.
它被称为“全栈构建器计划”，本质上是让任何人，无论其职能如何，都能将产品从构思到发布。
They've scrapped their APM program and replaced it with an associate full stack builder program.
他们已经废弃了 APM 程序，并用相关的全栈构建器程序取而代之。
They've introduced a new career path with the title Full Stack Builder that anyone from any function can become.
他们推出了一条名为“全栈构建者”的新职业道路，任何职能部门的任何人都可以成为。
And as you'll hear in the conversation, they've built a bunch of internal tools and agents and processes to basically build a human plus AI product team that can move really fast, adjust to change quickly, and do a lot more with a lot less.
正如您将在对话中听到的那样，他们构建了一系列内部工具、代理和流程，基本上构建了一个人类加人工智能产品团队，该团队可以快速行动，快速调整以适应变化，并以更少的资源做更多的事情。
If you're looking for inspiration for how to rethink how your team operates and to lean into what AI is unlocking for teams and companies, this episode is for you.
如果您正在寻找灵感，了解如何重新思考团队的运作方式，并了解人工智能为团队和公司带来的好处，那么本集适合您。
Lenny Rachitsky: A huge thank you to Shira Gasarch for suggesting topics for this conversation.
Lenny Rachitsky：非常感谢 Shira Gasarch 为本次对话提出的主题。
If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube.
如果您喜欢这个播客，请不要忘记订阅并在您最喜欢的播客应用程序或 YouTube 中关注它。
It helps tremendously.
它有很大帮助。
And if you become an annual subscriber of my newsletter, you get a year free of a bunch of incredible products, including a year free of Devin, Lovable, Replit, Bolt, n8n, Linear, Superhuman, Descript, , Gamma, Perplexity, Warp, Granola, Magic Patterns, Raycast, ChatPRD, Mobbin and Stripe Atlas.
如果您成为我的时事通讯的年度订阅者，您将获得一年免费的一堆令人难以置信的产品，包括一年免费的 Devin、Lovable、Replit、Bolt、n8n、Linear、Super human、Descript、Gamma、Perplexity、Warp、Granola、Magic Patterns、Raycast、ChatPRD、Mobbin 和 Stripe Atlas。
Head on over to lennysnewsletter.com and click product pass.
前往 lennysnewsletter.com 并单击产品通行证。
With that, I bring you Tomer Cohen after a short word from our sponsors.
在我们的赞助商简短发言后，我为您带来了托默·科恩 (Tomer Cohen)。
Lenny Rachitsky: My podcast guests and I love talking about craft and taste and agency and product market fit.
Lenny Rachitsky：我和我的播客嘉宾喜欢谈论工艺和品味以及代理机构和产品市场契合度。
You know what we don't love talking about?
你知道我们不喜欢谈论什么吗？
SOC 2.
SOC 2。
That's where Vanta comes in.
这就是万塔登场的地方。
Vanta helps companies of all sizes get compliant fast and stay that way with industry-leading AI, automation, and continuous monitoring.
Vanta 通过行业领先的人工智能、自动化和持续监控帮助各种规模的公司快速获得合规性并保持这种状态。
Whether you're a startup tackling your first SOC 2 or ISO 27001 or an enterprise managing vendor risk, Vanta's trust management platform makes it quicker, easier, and more scalable.
无论您是处理第一个 SOC 2 或 ISO 27001 的初创公司，还是管理供应商风险的企业，Vanta 的信任管理平台都可以让您更快、更轻松且更具可扩展性。
Vanta also helps you complete security questionnaires up to five times faster so that you can win bigger deals sooner.
Vanta 还可以帮助您以五倍的速度完成安全调查问卷，以便您可以更快地赢得更大的交易。
The result?
结果呢？
According to a recent IDC study, Vanta customers slashed over $500,000 a year and are three times more productive.
根据 IDC 最近的一项研究，Vanta 客户每年节省超过 500,000 美元，而生产力却提高了三倍。
Establishing trust isn't optional.
建立信任不是可选的。
Vanta makes it automatic.
Vanta 使其自动化。
Get $1,000 off at vanta.com/lenny.
访问vanta.com/lenny 可享 1,000 美元折扣。
Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by Figma, makers of Figma Make.
Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 Figma（Figma Make 的制作者）为您带来。
When I was a PM at Airbnb, I still remember when Figma came out and how much it improved how we operated as a team.
当我在 Airbnb 担任产品经理时，我仍然记得 Figma 的问世以及它对我们团队运作方式的改善。
Suddenly, I could involve my whole team in the design process, give feedback on design concepts really quickly, and it just made the whole product development process so much more fun.
突然之间，我可以让我的整个团队参与到设计过程中，非常快速地提供设计概念反馈，这使得整个产品开发过程变得更加有趣。
Lenny Rachitsky: But Figma never felt like it was for me.
Lenny Rachitsky：但 Figma 从来不觉得它适合我。
It was great for giving feedback and designs, but as a builder, I wanted to make stuff.
它非常适合提供反馈和设计，但作为一名构建者，我想要制作东西。
That's why Figma built Figma Make.
这就是 Figma 构建 Figma Make 的原因。
With just a few prompts, you can make any idea or design into a fully functional prototype or app that anyone can iterate on and validate with customers.
只需几个提示，您就可以将任何想法或设计制作成功能齐全的原型或应用程序，任何人都可以与客户进行迭代和验证。
Figma Make is a different kind of vibe coding tool.
Figma Make 是一种不同类型的氛围编码工具。
Because it's all in Figma, you can use your team's existing design building blocks, making it easy to create outputs that look good and feel real and are connected to how your team builds.
因为一切都在 Figma 中，所以您可以使用团队现有的设计构建块，从而轻松创建看起来不错、感觉真实并与团队构建方式相关的输出。
Stop spending so much time telling people about your product vision, and instead show it to them.
不要再花太多时间告诉人们你的产品愿景，而是向他们展示它。
Make code-backed prototypes and apps fast with Figma Make.
使用 Figma Make 快速制作代码支持的原型和应用程序。
Check it out at figma.com/lenny.
请访问Figma.com/lenny 进行查看。
Lenny Rachitsky: Tomer, thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast.
Lenny Rachitsky：Tomer，非常感谢您来到这里，欢迎来到播客。
Tomer Cohen: Thank you.
托默·科恩：谢谢。
It's great to be back.
很高兴回来。
Lenny Rachitsky: It's great to have you back.
Lenny Rachitsky：很高兴你回来。
I'm really excited to be chatting because you're experimenting with a very different way of building product at LinkedIn that fully embraces what AI unlocks, kind of leans into what is now possible, and to me, this feels like this could be a model for how a lot of companies operate and how product ends up being built in the future.
我真的很高兴能与您聊天，因为你们正在 LinkedIn 尝试一种非常不同的构建产品的方式，这种方式完全拥抱人工智能所解锁的东西，有点倾向于现在可能的东西，对我来说，这感觉这可能成为许多公司如何运营以及未来如何构建产品的模型。
There's a lot of product leaders that are talking about AI, what they can do.
有很多产品领导者都在谈论人工智能，以及他们可以做什么。
It feels like you're actually doing this in a really, really radical way, and so I'm excited to learn from you to hear about this for listeners to understand what you're seeing, what you've learned.
感觉你实际上是以一种非常非常激进的方式来做这件事，所以我很高兴向你学习，让听众了解你所看到的、你学到的东西。
Let me start with just why did you decide this was necessary?
让我首先谈谈您为什么认为这是必要的？
Why are you rethinking all of these things about how product has been built for a long time?
为什么你要重新思考长期以来产品是如何构建的所有这些事情？
AKA, why do people need to pay attention to what we're about to be talking about?
也就是说，为什么人们需要关注我们将要谈论的内容？
Tomer Cohen: It really starts with kind of the basics.
托默·科恩：这确实是从基础知识开始的。
For me, technology has always been about empowerment.
对我来说，技术始终意味着赋权。
It's not about what it does for us.
这与它为我们做什么无关。
It's about what enables us to do.
这是关于我们能够做什么。
And now we have this amazing opportunity in my mind to make it about meritocracy, and I think it's an opportunity, but it's also a necessity right now, and I want to put this in context where we're entering this phase where the time constant of change is far greater than the time constant of response.
现在，我认为我们有一个绝佳的机会来实现精英管理，我认为这是一个机会，但现在也是必要的，我想把它放在我们正在进入这个阶段的背景下，在这个阶段，变化的时间常数远远大于响应的时间常数。
Basically means that change is happening faster than we're able to respond to it.
基本上意味着变化发生的速度快于我们能够应对的速度。
Now, LinkedIn has this unique view of the world of work.
现在，LinkedIn 对工作世界有了这种独特的看法。
So we actually have some pretty, in my mind, mind-blowing stats to put this in perspective.
因此，在我看来，我们实际上有一些漂亮的、令人兴奋的统计数据来正确地看待这一点。
When we look at the skills required to do your job, by 2030, which is literally four years from now, sounds a long time, but four years from now, it will change by 70%.
当我们审视工作所需的技能时，到 2030 年（实际上是四年后），听起来很长一段时间，但四年后，情况将会发生 70% 的变化。
Tomer Cohen: So whether or not you're looking to change your job, your job is changing.
托默·科恩：因此，无论您是否想换工作，您的工作都在发生变化。
The only question is, do you keep it?
唯一的问题是，你保留它吗？
And then we look at organizationally, the fastest growing jobs right now, the most in demand jobs in the market are growing by north of 70% from last year's fastest growing job.
然后我们从组织角度来看，目前增长最快的工作、市场上需求量最大的工作比去年增长最快的工作增长了 70% 以上。
So there's a new kind of iteration of what you need as an organization to thrive.
因此，作为一个组织的蓬勃发展，需要一种新的迭代。
And then you apply that to building products and you realize that in order to stay competitive, you actually have to go back to some first principles, go back to the drawing board and reimagine what it means to be building.
然后你将其应用到构建产品中，你意识到为了保持竞争力，你实际上必须回到一些首要原则，回到绘图板并重新想象构建的意义。
And what I love about this is when you think about the role of a builder, which the builder is at the heart of company, the goal is actually quite simple.
我喜欢这一点的是，当你想到建设者的角色时，建设者是公司的核心，目标实际上非常简单。
The builder takes an ADN, she brings it to life.
构建者获取 ADN，然后将其变为现实。
That's really the process, right?
确实是这个过程，对吧？
Tomer Cohen: And we all build those, let's call them best practices.
Tomer Cohen：我们都构建了这些，我们称之为最佳实践。
You research the problem really well, you spec it out, you design it, you code it, you launch it, and you iterate.
你很好地研究了这个问题，你详细说明它，你设计它，你编码它，你启动它，然后你迭代。
That's basically it.
基本上就是这样。
But what happens at many at scale companies, LinkedIn included and many other companies, over time that process became very complex very quickly.
但在许多大规模公司（包括 LinkedIn 和许多其他公司）中发生的情况随着时间的推移，这个过程很快变得非常复杂。
So what happened?
那么发生了什么？
We took every step and we expanded it to a lot of sub-steps.
我们采取了每一步，并将其扩展到许多子步骤。
Researching, the problem became looking at for us 10 to 15 sources of information, obviously talking to customers about doing data pools, looking at feedback tickets in multiple sources, social media, interactions with customers.
经过研究，问题变成了寻找 10 到 15 个信息源，显然是与客户讨论建立数据池、查看多个来源、社交媒体、与客户的互动中的反馈单。
We probably have 10 to 15 sources of information we go for before we feel like we have research department really, really well.
在我们感觉我们的研究部门真的非常非常好之前，我们可能有 10 到 15 个信息来源。
Tomer Cohen: Think about reviews for product.
托默·科恩：考虑一下产品的评论。
There is design reviews, privacy reviews, security reviews.
有设计审查、隐私审查、安全审查。
I can go on and on and on.
我可以继续说下去。
And each one of those substeps actually has a valid reason to exist.
这些子步骤中的每一个实际上都有其存在的正当理由。
But when you add a whole thing together, you're like, "Oh my God.
但当你把所有的东西加在一起时，你会想，“天哪。
This is why it takes, to build a small feature, multiple teams, multiple code bases, multiple sprints just to get it out to launch," and not talk about iterating, which is actually where you seek success.
这就是为什么要构建一个小功能，需要多个团队、多个代码库、多个冲刺才能启动它”，而不是谈论迭代，而迭代实际上是您寻求成功的地方。
You never see success in the launch itself.
你永远不会在发布本身中看到成功。
So really the work itself is not complex, but the process we made very complex.
所以说其实工作本身并不复杂，但是我们做的过程却很复杂。
And when I was digging in, I found it doesn't end there because somebody has to do all those substeps, so what happened is you actually move from process complexity to organizational complexity as well.
当我深入研究时，我发现事情并没有就此结束，因为必须有人完成所有这些子步骤，所以实际上你也从流程复杂性转向了组织复杂性。
Tomer Cohen: And then you actually led to microspecialization.
托默·科恩：然后你实际上导致了微观专业化。
All those subsets are doing by somebody specific.
所有这些子集都是由特定的人做的。
So from one builder, we have multiple functions.
因此，从一个构建者开始，我们就拥有多种功能。
Obviously we have engineering, product and design, and you can start questioning those lines.
显然我们有工程、产品和设计，你可以开始质疑这些界限。
At least I am internally.
至少我内心是这样的。
And from there, we have a lot of subspecialties.
从那里开始，我们有很多子专业。
It happens in every one of those functions, but imagine design.
它发生在每一个功能中，但想象一下设计。
We have interaction design, animation design, content design, research.
我们有交互设计、动画设计、内容设计、研究。
There's so many aspects to that.
这有很多方面。
So they're all valid, but they all have people, and that entire process basically means a lot of...
所以它们都是有效的，但它们都有人，整个过程基本上意味着很多......
It's basically bloating.
基本上就是浮肿了。
It's complexity.
这是复杂性。
And then without noticing, you end up with this massively complex...
然后在没有注意到的情况下，你最终会得到这个非常复杂的......
We actually have this diagram that basically shows the process complexity, organizational complexity together.
我们实际上有这张图，基本上显示了流程复杂性和组织复杂性。
Tomer Cohen: And usually people are mind blown because they're working on one thing very specific, but when you zoom out, you have this overwhelming experience you're kind of thinking about.
托默·科恩：通常人们会感到震惊，因为他们正在做一件非常具体的事情，但当你缩小视野时，你就会有一种你正在思考的压倒性的经历。
And now we have this real opportunity to collapse the stack backup, go back to craftsmanship, rethink the product development lifecycle, which is where the full stack builder model comes to life.
现在我们有这个真正的机会来瓦解堆栈备份，回归工艺，重新思考产品开发生命周期，这就是全堆栈构建器模型的实现之处。
Lenny Rachitsky: Wow.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：哇。
Okay.
好的。
And there's so much here.
这里有很多东西。
We're going to be showing the visuals as you talk to help people see what you're explaining here.
我们将在您讲话时展示视觉效果，以帮助人们了解您在这里所解释的内容。
And all of this is very rational.
而这一切都是非常理性的。
If you have 15 sources of information, why not pull from it?
如果您有 15 个信息源，为什么不从中获取信息呢？
Why miss out on that stuff?
为什么要错过那些东西呢？
And what you're describing here is as you get more power and more specialized...
你在这里描述的是当你获得更多的权力和更专业的时候......
It all makes sense rationally, but when you start to step back and look at this like, holy shit, it takes six months to launch one feature.
从理性上讲，这一切都是有道理的，但当你开始退后一步，看看这件事时，天哪，推出一项功能需要六个月的时间。
I want to ask about the stat you shared.
我想问一下你分享的统计数据。
I think this is an incredibly powerful stat and you have very unique data here to tell you this sort of stuff.
我认为这是一个非常强大的统计数据，这里有非常独特的数据可以告诉你这类事情。
So you said that something like 70% of the skills that people will need in the future are going to change.
所以你说人们未来需要的大约 70% 的技能将会发生变化。
Lenny Rachitsky: To do their current job.
Lenny Rachitsky：做他们目前的工作。
And what is this looking at?
这是在看什么？
Is this just based on historical data or how do you find that?
这只是基于历史数据还是你是如何发现的？
Tomer Cohen: Yeah.
托默·科恩：是的。
To be fair, there was always a change, right?
公平地说，变化总是存在的，对吧？
So it was never about just keep the skills you have today, but we've never seen such a dramatic part of your role today.
因此，这绝不是仅仅保留您今天所拥有的技能，而是我们从未见过您今天的角色如此引人注目。
So whether you are a marketer right now or a seller, a recruiter, an engineer.
因此，无论您现在是营销人员还是销售人员、招聘人员、工程师。
Engineering is where a lot of the investment is going in right now in terms of agents.
就代理商而言，工程是目前大量投资的领域。
Those jobs will change dramatically.
这些工作将会发生巨大的变化。
I remember I said my role, my life as an engineer and even then it's changed materially after 10 years, and then the change we're seeing right now, just thinking about in four years, what did it take to actually engineer really, really well would be dramatically different, or to build software, to build an artifact of some sort.
我记得我说过我的角色，我作为一名工程师的生活，即使如此，十年后它也发生了重大变化，然后我们现在看到的变化，只要想想四年后，真正、真正优秀的工程师需要什么，或者构建软件、构建某种工件需要什么。
But it's true for almost every function.
但几乎所有函数都是如此。
It's not equal.
这是不平等的。
Some job like nurses will see less impact, but some jobs will see 90%, 95% impact.
有些工作（例如护士）受到的影响较小，但有些工作会受到 90%、95% 的影响。
Lenny Rachitsky: There's also a stat that I don't think you mentioned here that I saw on the post when you first talked about this program is that 70% of today's fastest growing jobs were not even on the list of jobs a year ago.
Lenny Rachitsky：还有一个统计数据，我认为您在这里没有提到，当您第一次谈论该计划时，我在帖子中看到了这一数据，即当今增长最快的工作岗位中有 70% 甚至一年前都没有出现在工作岗位列表中。
Tomer Cohen: Yeah.
托默·科恩：是的。
No, so this is the fastest growing job on the list were not there a year ago, and then many of them don't even exist a decade or two ago.
不，所以这是名单上增长最快的工作，一年前还没有，而且其中许多工作在一两年前甚至都不存在。
There's actually some pretty amazing stats across the board.
实际上有一些非常惊人的全面统计数据。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。
So let's talk about this program that you built.
那么让我们来谈谈您构建的这个程序。
Tell us the name and then tell us the gist of what it is today and the vision of where you want it to be.
告诉我们它的名称，然后告诉我们它今天的要点以及您希望它达到的愿景。
Tomer Cohen: Yeah.
托默·科恩：是的。
So we call it the full stack builder model.
所以我们称之为全栈构建器模型。
And the goal, always start with the goal.
而目标，总是从目标开始。
The goal itself is to empower great builders to take their idea and to take it to market, regardless of their role and the stack and specifically which team they're on.
目标本身是让伟大的构建者能够将他们的想法推向市场，无论他们的角色和堆栈如何，特别是他们所在的团队。
And the idea ultimately is to be able for that builder is to develop experiences end to end, to combine skills and expertise across what was traditionally distinct domains to bring it all together.
最终的想法是让构建者能够端到端地开发体验，将传统上不同领域的技能和专业知识结合起来，将它们整合在一起。
And it's not a sequence of steps.
而且这不是一系列步骤。
It's really a fluid interaction between human and machine.
这确实是人与机器之间的流畅交互。
That's how the way I see it.
我就是这么看的。
And then when you look back at that product development life cycle from the idea, the insight all the way to launch, the key trait that I'm emphasizing for builders is where I want them to spend their time is where I think great builders should shine in.
然后，当你回顾产品开发生命周期时，从想法、洞察力一直到发布，我对构建者强调的关键特征是，我希望他们把时间花在我认为伟大的构建者应该发挥的地方。
Tomer Cohen: So the idea of vision.
托默·科恩：所以是愿景的想法。
Coming up with a compelling sense about the future.
对未来产生令人信服的感觉。
Empathy, super critical, right?
同理心，非常关键，对吧？
Having a profound understanding of an unmet need.
对未满足的需求有深刻的理解。
Communication is critical.
沟通至关重要。
And we see this a lot in job descriptions right now for almost every role, but ability for you to align and rally others around an idea.
我们现在在几乎每个职位的职位描述中都看到了这一点，但你有能力围绕一个想法协调和团结其他人。
Creativity, which for me is about coming up with possibilities beyond the obvious.
创造力，对我来说就是想出超越显而易见的可能性。
For example, I don't think AI yet is great at creativity.
例如，我认为人工智能还不擅长创造力。
I think it's kind of, in many ways, brings back the things you might not know about, but it's not the kind of next level creativity, which I think still humans are much better at.
我认为，从很多方面来说，这会带回你可能不知道的事情，但这并不是那种更高水平的创造力，我认为人类仍然更擅长这一点。
Tomer Cohen: And then ultimately what I think is the most important trait for a builder is judgment.
托默·科恩：最终我认为对于建筑商来说最重要的特质是判断力。
Some people call it test making, but it's making high quality decisions in what is complex ambiguous situations.
有些人称之为测试制定，但它是在复杂且模糊的情况下做出高质量的决策。
Everything else, I'm working really hard to automate.
其他一切，我都在努力实现自动化。
Really, really hard.
真的，真的很难。
And then when you think about the outcome, it's not just about having more shots at the goal, which I think people go like, "Oh, the iteration speed is going to be very high." Yes, but what you're really doing to an organization of at scale organizations is they're a lot more nimble, a lot more adaptive, a lot more resilient.
然后，当你考虑结果时，这不仅仅是有更多的射门机会，我认为人们会说，“哦，迭代速度将会非常高。”是的，但你真正对一个由大规模组织组成的组织所做的是，它们变得更加灵活、适应性更强、更有弹性。
They can navigate the future.
他们可以驾驭未来。
They can actually match the pace of change to the pace of response.
他们实际上可以将变革的步伐与响应的步伐相匹配。
Tomer Cohen: And an analogy I have in mind is kind of Navy SEALs.
托默·科恩：我想到的一个类比是海豹突击队。
You come to training, they're all kind of learning, they're cross-trained, across multiple areas.
你来参加培训，他们都是在学习，他们接受了跨多个领域的交叉培训。
What they specialize in is the mission and they operate in small pods and they're very nimble and you can assemble them very quickly.
他们的专长是执行任务，他们在小吊舱中运作，非常灵活，你可以很快地组装它们。
And I think that's going to be the organization that will win in the future.
我认为这将是未来获胜的组织。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。
So the simple idea, if you're just to boil it down to a sentence, the idea here is there's a builder who goes through the entire product development process essentially on their own.
所以简单的想法，如果你只是把它归结为一句话，这里的想法是有一个构建者基本上自己完成整个产品开发过程。
They have an idea, they research, they do data, they prototype design ship.
他们有一个想法，他们进行研究，他们做数据，他们设计船舶原型。
That's kind of like the vision of where this goes?
这有点像未来的愿景？
Tomer Cohen: Yes, but it doesn't have to be on their own.
托默·科恩：是的，但不一定要靠他们自己。
It's not like...
这不像是...
I still believe in teams.
我仍然相信团队。
Tomer Cohen: Just smaller teams.
托默·科恩：只是较小的团队。
Smaller teams and much more focused on the problem, the mission, per say, versus...
更小的团队，更专注于问题、使命，而不是……
Actually, one of the things we've done as an example, we started to do the idea of pods.
实际上，我们已经做过的事情之一是，我们开始考虑 Pod 的想法。
We're no longer large teams.
我们不再是大团队了。
We assemble a team, ideally a full stack builders coming together and it's less about can I have an engineer design PM working together and trying to combine this trio looking at folks who can flex across and then they tackle something for a quarter or so and then we reassemble those two different pods.
我们组建了一个团队，最好是一个全栈构建者聚集在一起，而不是我是否可以让一个工程师设计 PM 一起工作，并尝试将这三个人结合起来，看看那些可以灵活应对的人，然后他们处理一些问题大约四分之一，然后我们重新组装这两个不同的 Pod。
That's one example of an manifestation we're doing right now and seeing actually some great success in both in terms of velocity, but also in terms of that focus and nimbleness of that team.
这是我们现在正在做的一种表现的一个例子，我们看到实际上在速度方面取得了一些巨大的成功，而且在团队的专注度和灵活性方面也取得了巨大的成功。
Lenny Rachitsky: And it feels like the goal here, what you're trying to adjust and that broke as teams bloated as speed and adaptability and flexibility, because going back to your original point that change is happening so much more quickly now that companies that have been building in this traditional way just can't compete.
Lenny Rachitsky：感觉就像是这里的目标，你试图调整的东西，随着团队因速度、适应性和灵活性而膨胀而破裂，因为回到你最初的观点，变化发生得如此之快，以至于以这种传统方式构建的公司无法竞争。
Tomer Cohen: Yeah.
托默·科恩：是的。
It's not that you have to break the model.
这并不是说你必须打破模型。
I think the model is broken.
我认为模型已损坏。
It's just this pace of change is helping us realize it.
正是这种变化的步伐正在帮助我们实现这一目标。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。
So then going back to the things that these builders still do versus what you want to automate.
那么，然后回到这些构建者仍在做的事情与您想要自动化的事情。
So the list you shared is they're responsible for the vision, empathy, communication, creativity, and judgment.
所以你分享的清单是他们负责愿景、同理心、沟通、创造力和判断力。
Tomer Cohen: Yes.
托默·科恩：是的。
Yeah.
是的。
And I would put a lot of the focus on the latter.
我会把很多注意力放在后者上。
I think if you ask me at the end of the day, what's the kind of most important trait?
我想如果你最终问我，最重要的特质是什么？
I would say it's that judgment, test making ability.
我想说的是判断力、测试能力。
Lenny Rachitsky: And then in terms of what you're automating, what are some of the areas you've seen a lot of success in actually automating and where do you think this goes?
Lenny Rachitsky：然后就您正在实现的自动化而言，您在哪些领域在实际自动化方面取得了很大成功？您认为这将走向何方？
Tomer Cohen: Yeah.
托默·科恩：是的。
So I think just to kind of break it to pieces, and I think this is...
所以我想只是把它分解成碎片，我认为这是......
If you were a startup right now, in many ways you can start this way.
如果您现在是一家初创公司，那么在很多方面您都可以通过这种方式开始。
There's no legacy code, there's no legacy structure you run.
没有遗留代码，也没有运行的遗留结构。
And in fact, a lot of the startups I talked to that are built AI natively, they're just working at full stack builders.
事实上，我采访过的许多初创公司都是原生人工智能，他们只是在全栈构建器上工作。
That's the way they start.
这就是他们开始的方式。
If you're at a company at a scale of ours and many others in the market, you're like, this is almost like a new production function and mindset that you have to do.
如果您所在的公司具有我们和市场上许多其他公司的规模，您会想，这几乎就像您必须执行的新生产功能和思维方式。
And there's really three components that we're working on.
我们正在研究三个组件。
One is platform.
一是平台。
The second one is the tools and the agents.
第二个是工具和代理。
And lastly is the culture.
最后是文化。
Tomer Cohen: The platform one, this is the kind of level of investment you have to do before, before this actually starts, you start to see all the benefits accrue.
托默·科恩：平台一，这是您之前必须进行的投资水平，在这实际开始之前，您开始看到所有收益的产生。
But the platform for us as an example is rearchitecting all of our core platforms so AI can reason over it.
但以我们为例，该平台正在重新构建我们所有的核心平台，以便人工智能可以对其进行推理。
So we're building kind of this composable UI components with server side that we actually build.
因此，我们正在使用我们实际构建的服务器端构建这种可组合的 UI 组件。
We're basically building for AI to be ready to bring it in.
我们基本上是在为人工智能的引入做好准备。
So you can't just go and bring a third party tool and have it work on the LinkedIn stack.
因此，您不能直接使用第三方工具并让它在 LinkedIn 堆栈上运行。
In fact, that's one of our biggest learnings.
事实上，这是我们最大的收获之一。
It never works.
它永远不会起作用。
Never works.
从来不工作。
You have to bring it in and customize a lot of it, working almost in alpha mode with those companies to make it work internally.
你必须引入它并对其进行大量定制，几乎以 alpha 模式与这些公司合作以使其在内部运行。
Lenny Rachitsky: So this is essentially re-architecting your code base to work more efficiently with AI.
Lenny Rachitsky：所以这本质上是重新架构你的代码库，以便更有效地与人工智能一起工作。
Is that one way to think about it?
这是一种思考方式吗？
Tomer Cohen: Yes.
托默·科恩：是的。
And in many ways, working with those companies to adjust something in their stack to work with our stack as well.
在很多方面，与这些公司合作，调整他们堆栈中的某些内容，以便也与我们的堆栈一起使用。
Lenny Rachitsky: When you say those companies, meaning the development agents like Cursors and and such?
Lenny Rachitsky：当你说那些公司时，是指像 Cursors 之类的开发代理吗？
Tomer Cohen: Yes.
托默·科恩：是的。
Or Figma on design.
或者 Figma 的设计。
Or you can think about design systems is another example of that.
或者你可以考虑设计系统是另一个例子。
But you have to have that back and forth because they're not...
但你必须来来回回，因为他们不是......
In many ways, we haven't seen anybody be able to work off the shelf immediately on our code-based design systems and unique context we have.
在很多方面，我们还没有看到任何人能够立即在我们基于代码的设计系统和我们拥有的独特上下文上进行现成的工作。
Lenny Rachitsky: Just to follow that thread briefly, so there's Figma.
Lenny Rachitsky：简单地跟随一下这个线索，所以就有 Figma。
That's interesting.
那很有意思。
So basically the way Figma exports and keeps your design system, that has to change to work better with AI is what I'm hearing.
所以基本上 Figma 导出和保留你的设计系统的方式，必须改变才能更好地与人工智能配合，这就是我所听到的。
Tomer Cohen: They first need to know how to work with our design systems, which is something, in many ways a lot of those companies are working on.
托默·科恩（Tomer Cohen）：他们首先需要知道如何使用我们的设计系统，这是许多公司在很多方面正在努力的事情。
Same with coding.
与编码相同。
It doesn't work that you just bring it in and it just reasons over your code base really well.
你仅仅将它引入是行不通的，它只是很好地解释了你的代码库。
We tried.
我们尝试过。
We are building that layer that basically allows it to do so, whether it's Copilot or Cursor, Windsurf and so on.
我们正在构建的层基本上允许它这样做，无论是 Copilot 还是 Cursor、Windsurf 等等。
Lenny Rachitsky: Got it.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：明白了。
Okay.
好的。
Oh yeah, Copilot.
哦，是的，副驾驶。
Microsoft.
微软。
I get it.
我得到它。
I get it.
我得到它。
Okay.
好的。
Okay.
好的。
So that's the platform.
这就是平台。
So that's an investment that you guys have to make to make AI effective at building and doing all these things.
因此，为了让人工智能有效地构建和完成所有这些事情，你们必须进行一项投资。
Tomer Cohen: And then you have tools.
托默·科恩：然后你就有了工具。
So tools is where you really build the agents.
因此，工具才是真正构建代理的地方。
I mentioned I want to automate everything outside of those five trades that we talked about, and then we're building the tools for that.
我提到我想自动化我们讨论的这五个交易之外的所有内容，然后我们正在为此构建工具。
And then for that, actually very similarly, I can't just bring a tool from the outside and work.
为此，实际上非常相似，我不能只从外面带一个工具来工作。
So I'll give you an example.
所以我给你举个例子。
One of our biggest things is building a trust agent.
我们最重要的事情之一是建立一个信托代理。
Trust is really important for us at LinkedIn.
信任对于 LinkedIn 来说非常重要。
There's a lot of unique vectors which trust plays at LinkedIn doesn't place it anywhere else.
LinkedIn 上有很多独特的信任载体，这是其他地方没有的。
So we need to bring all of that know how and context and information base into that agent.
因此，我们需要将所有这些知识、背景和信息库带入该代理中。
So we ended up building our own trust agent at LinkedIn.
因此，我们最终在 LinkedIn 建立了自己的信任代理。
Lenny Rachitsky: And so what is this trust agent doing?
Lenny Rachitsky：那么这个信托代理人在做什么呢？
Telling you when you're maybe exposing information that you shouldn't be?
当您可能暴露不应该暴露的信息时告诉您？
Tomer Cohen: So when you build a spec, you build an idea, you walk through the trust agent and it'll basically tell you what are your vulnerabilities, what harm vectors potentially you're introducing or will be introduced as a result of that.
Tomer Cohen：因此，当您构建规范时，您会构建一个想法，然后通过信任代理，它基本上会告诉您您的漏洞是什么，您正在引入或将因此引入哪些潜在的危害向量。
And I had our head of trust build it.
我让我们的信任主管负责建造它。
So the head of craft for every area is building their own agent.
因此，每个领域的工艺负责人都在建立自己的代理。
As an example, we have one of our features for job seekers is called Open to Work.
举例来说，我们为求职者提供的一项功能称为“开放工作”。
If you're looking for a job, you can put an open to work.
如果您正在找工作，您可以开放工作机会。
Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, a little green loading thing on the circle.
Lenny Rachitsky：是的，圆圈上有一个绿色的加载小东西。
Tomer Cohen: Exactly.
托默·科恩：没错。
And actually it's a great signal.
实际上这是一个很好的信号。
I've seen some great success from it.
我从中看到了一些巨大的成功。
People are helping each other.
人们互相帮助。
The community really thrives around helping each other.
社区确实因互相帮助而蓬勃发展。
But at the same time, it introduces a trust vector for bad actors because they're open to work.
但与此同时，它为不良行为者引入了信任向量，因为他们愿意工作。
People who are looking for a job are potentially more vulnerable to scams than other folks.
正在找工作的人可能比其他人更容易受到诈骗。
So being able to think about how do we prevent all of those ahead of time.
因此，我们能够提前考虑如何预防所有这些情况。
So we walked that spec from a couple of years ago through the trust agent.
因此，我们通过信托代理执行了几年前的规范。
Not only was it able to find all the stuff we initiated at the beginning, but all the holes that we did not catch until later.
它不仅能够找到我们一开始发起的所有内容，还能找到我们后来才发现的所有漏洞。
So that's a great example of something that actually worked really well.
所以这是一个很好的例子，说明了一些东西确实运作良好。
Tomer Cohen: That's one.
托默·科恩：就是这样。
The other one is a growth agent, as an example.
例如，另一种是生长剂。
Again, LinkedIn has a very unique...
再说一次，LinkedIn 有一个非常独特的...
Actually, we have an incredible growth team, growth process.
事实上，我们有一个令人难以置信的成长团队和成长过程。
We've kind of funneled all of our unique loops, our funnels, our tests of the past, everything into this growth agent, and now you can basically rock your respect for it, your idea for it.
我们已经将所有独特的循环、我们的漏斗、我们过去的测试，所有的一切都集中到了这种增长剂中，现在你基本上可以动摇你对它的尊重，你对它的想法。
And it would not just allow you to do it better.
它不仅能让你做得更好。
It would actually critique how good is your idea.
它实际上会批评你的想法有多好。
This is something you cannot bring off the shelf.
这是你无法从货架上拿下来的东西。
It's very unique to LinkedIn.
这是LinkedIn 非常独特的。
So we had to invest dramatically in it.
所以我们必须对其进行大量投资。
And one team which is using it right now, which is almost...
现在有一个团队正在使用它，几乎......
I wasn't thinking about it at the beginning, but our UXR team, our UER team, the user research team is usually using that growth agent to understand out of all the things that are basically surfacing for members, which one has the biggest growth opportunity to have the biggest impact?
我一开始并没有考虑到这一点，但是我们的 UXR 团队、我们的 UER 团队、用户研究团队通常会使用增长剂来了解基本上为会员呈现的所有内容，哪一个拥有最大的增长机会并产生最大的影响？
That was not in the cards when we thought about that idea, but teams are basically funneling those ideas into this one.
当我们考虑这个想法时，这并没有出现在卡片上，但团队基本上正在将这些想法融入到这个想法中。
Tomer Cohen: An example is our research agent.
托默·科恩：我们的研究代理就是一个例子。
So research agent basically is trained on the personas of our members.
因此，研究代理基本上是根据我们会员的角色进行培训的。
You can think about a small business owner, a job seeker and so on.
你可以想想小企业主、求职者等等。
And it's using not just world knowledge, it's using all the research we've done in the past, all the support tickets coming in.
它不仅使用世界知识，还使用我们过去所做的所有研究以及所有收到的支持票。
So it's pretty good at understanding that persona at LinkedIn.
因此，它非常擅长理解 LinkedIn 的角色。
So one examples we had is a team came out with a spec.
我们举的一个例子是，一个团队制定了一份规范。
They weren't aware we had the research agent yet.
他们还不知道我们还有研究人员。
I asked the research agent for a small business owner, wanted to think about the marketing spec we had, and it critiqued it extremely well.
我向一位小企业主的研究代理询问了我们的营销规范，它对它的评价非常好。
Actually, in many ways shifted the direction of the team to focus on other integrations tools we can focus on, but it's very hard to have that visibility all to all that corpus of knowledge inside of the company.
实际上，在很多方面改变了团队的方向，以专注于我们可以关注的其他集成工具，但很难对公司内部的所有知识库都具有这种可见性。
Tomer Cohen: That's another example.
托默·科恩：这是另一个例子。
We have an analyst agent trained on all how you basically can query the entire LinkedIn graph, which is enormous.
我们有一位分析师代理接受过培训，了解如何查询整个 LinkedIn 图表，这是一个巨大的图表。
And instead of relying on your SQL queries or data science teams, you can use the analyst agent.
您可以使用分析师代理，而不是依赖 SQL 查询或数据科学团队。
All of those I would say are, I would call them still MVP+.
我想说的所有这些，我仍然称他们为 MVP+。
The goal for us in the next couple of months to basically roll them out externally.
我们在接下来的几个月里的目标基本上是在外部推出它们。
Externally, I mean, internally at LinkedIn.
我的意思是，在 LinkedIn 内部。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。
So many questions.
这么多问题。
One is just how are you building this?
一是你如何构建这个？
Is there a platform you're using?
有你正在使用的平台吗？
What does it take to build an agent at LinkedIn?
在 LinkedIn 建立代理需要什么？
Is it all internal tools or is there third party use?
都是内部工具还是有第三方使用？
Tomer Cohen: It's a great call.
托默·科恩：这是一个很棒的决定。
So I think we've been experimenting with a lot of tools.
所以我认为我们一直在尝试很多工具。
And I would say for a lot of those kind of knowledge corpus agents, we're using everything from Copilot Enterprise to ChatGPT Enterprise.
我想说，对于很多此类知识语料库代理，我们正在使用从 Copilot Enterprise 到 ChatGPT Enterprise 的一切。
By far though, the most important part was basically our own customization of it.
但到目前为止，最重要的部分基本上是我们自己的定制。
That's been where we saw the biggest gains.
这是我们看到最大收益的地方。
Even building the orchestrator across those because you want the agents to start following to each other, the trust agent should work with the growth agent and go do a back and forth versus doing what more sequentially.
即使因为您希望代理开始相互跟踪而跨这些构建协调器，信任代理也应该与增长代理一起工作，并进行来回操作而不是按顺序执行操作。
So we've done a lot of work internally to make it happen.
因此，我们在内部做了很多工作来实现这一目标。
This is why I think it does require that level of investment.
这就是为什么我认为它确实需要这种程度的投资。
Tomer Cohen: And then in some cases, let's talk about the design agent that we're working with.
托默·科恩：然后在某些情况下，让我们谈谈我们正在合作的设计代理。
We're working with multiple companies to try and understand which product works best for us.
我们正在与多家公司合作，尝试了解哪种产品最适合我们。
And interestingly enough, and this is another learning, different teams gravitate to different products.
有趣的是，这是另一种学习，不同的团队倾向于不同的产品。
So that's something we'll have to resolve and think about how we do this really well, because ultimately we were trying to simplify the process as much as possible, but that was a big learning for us and which tools we use and how we basically integrate them in.
因此，这是我们必须解决并思考如何做得很好的事情，因为最终我们试图尽可能简化流程，但这对我们来说是一个很大的学习，我们使用哪些工具以及我们如何基本上将它们集成在一起。
Lenny Rachitsky: Got it.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：明白了。
So you might have an amazing Figma agent, but some teams want to use a different design tool.
因此，您可能拥有令人惊叹的 Figma 代理，但有些团队希望使用不同的设计工具。
Tomer Cohen: Yeah.
托默·科恩：是的。
So we've kind of experimented with Figma and Subframe and Magic Patterns and so on, and we saw people gravitating depending on the function, their level of visibility, their know how of the tool before, they're gravitating to different tools.
因此，我们对 Figma、Subframe 和 Magic Patterns 等进行了实验，我们看到人们会根据功能、可见性水平、之前对工具的了解而被吸引，他们会被不同的工具所吸引。
And ultimately, I don't want to have eight design agents in the company, so we have to converge into at least a few.
最终，我不想在公司里有八个设计代理，所以我们必须集中到至少几个。
And I think it's similar across many areas because the appeal of those, a lot of those agents are trying to solve similar end goal, but they're doing it very differently.
我认为在许多领域都是相似的，因为这些领域的吸引力，很多代理都在试图解决类似的最终目标，但他们的做法却非常不同。
And what you'll see that ultimately, I don't think there's going to be a winner takes all because the starting point of the customer or the user will dictate a lot how simple they are for that use case.
最终你会看到，我认为不会出现赢家通吃的情况，因为客户或用户的起点将在很大程度上决定他们对于该用例的简单程度。
Lenny Rachitsky: Super interesting.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：超级有趣。
The other interesting takeaway here is you're designing very specific agents that are one job to be done.
这里另一个有趣的结论是，您正在设计非常具体的代理，这是一项需要完成的工作。
Is that a very intentional decision?
这是一个非常有意的决定吗？
Did you try an agent that just is super intelligent on all these things?
您是否尝试过在所有这些事情上都超级聪明的代理？
Tomer Cohen: Ultimately, they will do an orchestrator.
托默·科恩：最终，他们会做一个协调器。
We're going to really orchestrator across, but we did want to be able to rate and grade those agents really well on how they're doing.
我们将真正进行协调，但我们确实希望能够根据这些代理的表现对他们进行很好的评级和评分。
And I think there is a level of expertise.
我认为有一定程度的专业知识。
Now, we're kind of building this in a way where we'll be able to mask a lot of those.
现在，我们正在以一种能够掩盖其中很多内容的方式构建它。
You might not know that there's a trust agent.
您可能不知道有一个信托代理人。
You might have, we call this internally the product jammer agent that basically does your product jam, which is a process we do internally.
您可能有，我们在内部将其称为产品干扰器代理，它基本上负责您的产品干扰，这是我们内部执行的过程。
You might just use the product jam engine, and that product jam agent will work with all the other agents.
您可能只使用产品堵塞引擎，并且该产品堵塞代理将与所有其他代理一起工作。
But now we're starting with that building blocks until we build the orchestrating layer across.
但现在我们从该构建块开始，直到构建编排层。
Lenny Rachitsky: Another interesting takeaway from what you've been sharing is that so much of the work has gone into the beginning of the product development process, just like helping you craft the right requirements, clarify trust, and then here's product jam and here's the research we've done.
Lenny Rachitsky：从您分享的内容中得到的另一个有趣的收获是，很多工作都进入了产品开发过程的开始阶段，就像帮助您制定正确的要求、澄清信任一样，然后是产品果酱，这是我们所做的研究。
And I imagine it's because coding has already been accelerated with all these IEE tools.
我想这是因为所有这些 IEE 工具已经加速了编码。
Talk about just why that's maybe where most of the investment's gone and where you've seen the most impact so far.
谈谈为什么这可能是大部分投资的去向以及迄今为止您看到的影响最大的地方。
Tomer Cohen: Well, 100% our coding investment has gone, started a while back, and those are fall into place.
Tomer Cohen：嗯，我们的编码投资已经 100% 花掉了，不久前就开始了，现在这些都已经落实到位。
We have our coding agent.
我们有我们的编码代理。
In fact, we've kind of staged it into two parts of it.
事实上，我们已经把它分成了两个部分。
There is the idea to design part, and then let's call it the code to launch part.
有了设计部分的想法，然后我们将其称为启动部分的代码。
The code to launch part has gotten a lot of attention and we're making some big inroads there.
启动部分的代码已经引起了很多关注，我们正在这方面取得一些重大进展。
Everything from the coding agent to what we call the maintenance agent when you have a failed build, it will do it for you.
当您构建失败时，从编码代理到我们所说的维护代理，一切都会为您完成。
In fact, I think we're close to 50% of all those builds being done by the maintenance agent and a QA agent.
事实上，我认为我们接近 50% 的构建是由维护代理和 QA 代理完成的。
Lenny Rachitsky: Wow.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：哇。
So this is when a break builds instead of engineers hopping on the issues that an agent fix.
因此，这是当出现中断而不是工程师跳到代理修复的问题时。
Tomer Cohen: You can still go and finish your coffee before you have to go and redo the build again.
Tomer Cohen：在您必须再次重做构建之前，您仍然可以去喝完咖啡。
Tomer Cohen: But we haven't had much investment until we kind of launched this program in the idea to design area.
托默·科恩（Tomer Cohen）：但是，直到我们在创意设计领域推出这个项目之前，我们还没有进行太多投资。
And that's a material part of work.
这是工作的实质性部分。
It's also where the quality a lot of the work comes from, at least before you start to go into the coding phase.
这也是许多工作质量的来源，至少在开始进入编码阶段之前是这样。
The idea is to empower everybody.
这个想法是赋予每个人权力。
So if you're an engineer, you can basically use all those tools at the front of the process and be able to be a full stack builder.
因此，如果您是一名工程师，您基本上可以在流程的前端使用所有这些工具，并能够成为一名完整的堆栈构建者。
Lenny Rachitsky: How long did it take to get this kind of in place for you to actually form your first team to build these, the initial agents and some of this backend, redo the code base sort of thing?
Lenny Rachitsky：你花了多长时间才真正组建了第一个团队来构建这些、初始代理和一些后端，重做代码库之类的事情？
Tomer Cohen: I announced this internally end of last year, we really kind of started working, but it was more setting up the teams and the processes internally.
托默·科恩：我去年年底在内部宣布了这一点，我们确实开始了工作，但更多的是在内部建立团队和流程。
We had our first MVPs of those agents I think like four to five months after it was really trained, I would say.
我想说，我们在这些特工真正接受训练后的四到五个月内就获得了第一个 MVP。
But really the work itself has been kind of couple of months of dedicated work.
但实际上，这项工作本身就是几个月的专注工作。
A lot of it has been getting all the corpus of data together, cleaning it up.
其中很多工作是将所有数据集中在一起并进行清理。
And that's actually a good learning as well.
这实际上也是一个很好的学习。
It's not great to just give it access to your drive and say, "Reason all over this knowledge base." It actually does a very poor job understanding importance of the past and putting weights on stuff.
仅仅授予它访问您的驱动器并说“对这个知识库进行推理”的做法并不好。事实上，它在理解过去的重要性和重视事物方面做得很差。
You actually want to think about specifically what the context when do you want to give it to and what's the knowledge base that you want to have it focused on.
您实际上需要具体考虑您希望何时将其提供给什么上下文以及您希望其重点关注的知识库是什么。
So even cleaning up, let's call them gold examples or golden examples to learn from, has been one of the biggest learnings.
因此，即使是清理工作（让我们称其为黄金范例或可供学习的黄金范例）也是最大的学习内容之一。
Just reasoning over your entire knowledge base did not work.
仅仅对整个知识库进行推理是行不通的。
Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, that makes sense.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的，这是有道理的。
There may be just like a researcher with a strong opinion about something that you disagree with and it wouldn't know.
可能就像一个研究人员对你不同意的事情有强烈的看法，但它不会知道。
It's like, oh, of course, this is data, this is fact.
就像，哦，当然，这是数据，这是事实。
Tomer Cohen: Exactly.
托默·科恩：没错。
And then it doesn't always understand ties to original specs to success.
而且它并不总是理解原始规格与成功的联系。
You have to actually build...
你必须实际构建...
This is a really interesting way.
这是一个非常有趣的方式。
When you think about how you bring those tools in, you can't just bring them in.
当您考虑如何引入这些工具时，您不能只是引入它们。
You have to know what you feed them with.
你必须知道你给他们喂什么。
And what you feed them with is not just access.
你给他们提供的不仅仅是访问权。
I see a lot to just focus on the connectivity and integration and it reminds me of the...
我看到很多只关注连接和集成，这让我想起了......
This is almost like, this is actually more than 10 years ago when I was co-rebuilding the team, co-rebuilding the feed at LinkedIn and we started from scratch and I had to literally sit down and filter through examples of what is a good professional post on LinkedIn and what is not.
这几乎就像是，这实际上是十多年前的事了，当时我正在共同重建团队，共同重建LinkedIn的提要，我们从头开始，我不得不坐下来过滤LinkedIn上什么是好的专业职位，什么不是。
And this was like weeks of work getting up that golden sample of examples, but it wasn't...
这就像花费数周的时间来获取示例的黄金样本，但事实并非如此……
The most important part was feeding at the right data, not all the data.
最重要的部分是提供正确的数据，而不是所有数据。
Tomer Cohen: So it requires work.
托默·科恩：所以这需要工作。
This is where I would say for many companies who are thinking about this phase, and I do a lot of sessions today with CPOs and COs on this process.
对于许多正在考虑这一阶段的公司，我想说的是，今天我与 CPO 和 CO 就这一流程进行了很多会议。
You have to put this initial work to get the gains after.
你必须付出最初的努力才能获得之后的收获。
When I think about it, I think there's a takeaway there in generally with AI, even if you're learning it for the first time and so on, whether it's Cursor or whether it's design, if it's Figma or other tools or Lovable, you should be ready to invest those hours before you start seeing yourself pick up in velocity and quality, which will come up, but you have to invest that time.
当我思考这个问题时，我认为人工智能总体上有一个要点，即使你是第一次学习它等等，无论是 Cursor 还是设计，如果是 Figma 或其他工具或 Lovable，你应该准备好在开始看到自己的速度和质量提高之前投入这些时间，这将会出现，但你必须投入这些时间。
Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by Miro.
Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 Miro 为您带来。
Every day, new headlines are scaring us about all the ways that AI is coming for our jobs, creating a lot of anxiety and fear.
每天，新的头条新闻都让我们害怕人工智能会以各种方式取代我们的工作，造成很多焦虑和恐惧。
But a recent survey for Miro tells a different story.
但最近对米罗的一项调查却讲述了一个不同的故事。
76% of people believe that AI can benefit their role, but over 50% of people struggle to know when to use it.
76% 的人相信人工智能可以让他们的角色受益，但超过 50% 的人很难知道何时使用它。
Enter Miro's innovation workspace, an intelligent platform that brings people and AI together in a shared space to get great work done.
进入 Miro 的创新工作区，这是一个智能平台，它将人和人工智能聚集在一个共享空间中，以完成出色的工作。
Miro has been empowering teams to transform bold ideas into the next big thing for over a decade.
十多年来，Miro 一直致力于帮助团队将大胆的想法转化为下一件大事。
Today, they're at the forefront of bringing products to market even faster by unleashing the combined power of AI and human potential.
如今，他们处于领先地位，通过释放人工智能和人类潜力的综合力量，更快地将产品推向市场。
Guests of this podcast often share Miro templates.
该播客的嘉宾经常分享 Miro 模板。
I use it all the time to brainstorm ideas with my team.
我一直用它与我的团队集思广益。
Teams especially can work with Miro AI to turn to unstructured data like sticky notes or screenshots into usable diagrams, product briefs, data tables, and prototypes in minutes.
团队尤其可以与 Miro AI 合作，在几分钟内将便利贴或屏幕截图等非结构化数据转换为可用的图表、产品简介、数据表和原型。
You don't have to be an AI master or to toggle yet another tool.
您不必成为人工智能大师或切换另一种工具。
The work you're already doing in Miro's Canvas is the prompt.
您已经在 Miro's Canvas 中所做的工作就是提示。
Help your teams get great work done with Miro.
使用 Miro 帮助您的团队出色地完成工作。
Check it out at miro.com/lenny.
请访问 miro.com/lenny 进行查看。
That's M-I-R-O.com/lenny.
那是 M-I-R-O.com/lenny。
Lenny Rachitsky: What's the current state of the pilot?
Lenny Rachitsky：飞行员目前的状况如何？
How large is it?
它有多大？
How many teams are doing it?
有多少团队在做？
What kind of stuff have you shipped?
你运送了什么样的东西？
Just give us a sense of today's world.
只是让我们了解当今世界。
Tomer Cohen: Yeah.
托默·科恩：是的。
I wouldn't say we are yet at a very high sample rate where it's kind of a high percentage of the organization, but we have a substantial part of the organization already using it to provide a lot of the feedback.
我不会说我们的采样率很高，在组织中所占的比例很高，但我们组织的很大一部分已经在使用它来提供大量反馈。
We're seeing a lot of great examples.
我们看到了很多很好的例子。
So the way I think about the benefits is a function of experimentation volume multiplied by quality.
因此，我认为好处是实验量乘以质量的函数。
How good are those experiments divided by the time it takes to actually pull them out, like idea to launch.
这些实验的效果如何除以实际实施所需的时间，比如启动创意所需的时间。
So on saving times, we're seeing, whether it's PMs, designers, engineers, saving hours of work a week right now, whether it's the analyst agent we talked about or the prototyping really quickly or the product jamming experience has been a big part of that.
因此，在节省时间方面，我们看到，无论是产品经理、设计师、工程师，现在每周都节省了工作时间，无论是我们谈到的分析师代理还是快速原型设计或产品干扰体验都是其中的重要组成部分。
On the quality side, we're seeing insights discussions just be much, much better.
在质量方面，我们看到见解讨论要好得多。
And by the way, quality and time, sometimes they help each other because it's high quality, you don't have to spend as much time on something.
顺便说一下，质量和时间，有时它们是互相帮助的，因为质量很高，你不必在某件事上花费太多时间。
Tomer Cohen: So we are seeing that applied in.
托默·科恩：所以我们看到它被应用了。
And the volume, I wouldn't say we had a rate where I'm seeing a high percentage organization doing it yet, but this will come once we...
至于数量，我不会说我们的比率很高，但我看到有很高比例的组织正在这样做，但是一旦我们......
We haven't GA'd this internally.
我们还没有在内部对此进行 GA。
That will come in the next couple of months once we have all the stuff in place.
一旦我们把所有东西都准备好，这将在接下来的几个月内实现。
But we're seeing designers and PMs picking up bugs directly from Jira tickets, pushing them in, something we haven't seen before, and there's just an appetite for everybody to just join.
但我们看到设计师和产品经理直接从 Jira 票证中发现错误，并将其推送进来，这是我们以前从未见过的，而且每个人都有加入的欲望。
So in fact, the biggest thing right now is everybody wants access.
所以事实上，现在最重要的事情是每个人都想要访问。
Everybody wants access to the tools to be able to do it together, and we just want to make sure it's good enough to make sure the whole organization can do it really well.
每个人都希望能够使用这些工具来共同完成任务，我们只是想确保它足够好，以确保整个组织都能做得很好。
Lenny Rachitsky: So how is it that you're piling it?
Lenny Rachitsky：那么你是怎么堆放这些东西的呢？
Is it some number of people have access to these agents and they just work the way they've worked with access to these tools?
是否有一些人可以访问这些代理，并且他们只是按照他们访问这些工具的方式工作？
Or is there a team dedicated, this is the way you work now and this is it, and we'll see what happens.
或者是否有专门的团队，这就是您现在的工作方式，就是这样，我们将看看会发生什么。
Tomer Cohen: So that's a great call.
托默·科恩：这是一个很棒的决定。
So basically we have a team building.
所以基本上我们有一个团队建设。
It's the core team building the FSB track across all of R&D, FSB, full stack builder.
它是跨所有研发、FSB、全栈构建器构建 FSB 轨道的核心团队。
And then there are pockets and pods of teams using it.
还有一些团队在使用它。
So basically we are looking at specific areas that we're basically giving it to.
所以基本上我们正在研究我们基本上给予它的特定领域。
The condition there is they give feedback.
条件是他们提供反馈。
As a response for that, they make the tool better, so it's not just access.
作为对此的回应，他们改进了工具，因此不仅仅是访问。
We want people who will use it.
我们想要会使用它的人。
So one of your early adopters would be the ones who help up the product really well.
因此，您的早期采用者之一将是真正帮助该产品的人。
So we're doing this in a pod model right now.
所以我们现在正在 Pod 模型中进行此操作。
Lenny Rachitsky: So it's like a pod within a larger team, like a designer, PM, engineer kind of group within...
Lenny Rachitsky：所以它就像一个更大团队中的一个小组，就像设计师、PM、工程师之类的团队......
Is there an example?
有例子吗？
You have a part of LinkedIn that's trying this out?
您的 LinkedIn 部门正在尝试此功能吗？
Tomer Cohen: Yeah.
托默·科恩：是的。
So if I think about some of our teams, whether it's...
所以如果我想想我们的一些团队，是否...
Actually, we just launched Semantic People Search and the Semantic Job Search as well.
实际上，我们刚刚还推出了语义人员搜索和语义职位搜索。
That team was using part of those tools to actually help build it.
该团队正在使用其中的部分工具来实际帮助构建它。
So that team actually, this was PMs building their own dashboards with those tools without waiting for design resources to come in.
实际上，该团队是产品经理使用这些工具构建自己的仪表板，而无需等待设计资源的进入。
Then we have a design team who is now...
然后我们有一个设计团队，现在......
This started really from the manager rolling this out.
这实际上是从经理推出这个开始的。
And in many ways, what I tell this team is, "Don't wait for the official GA.
在很多方面，我告诉这个团队的是，“不要等待正式的 GA。
Start doing it.
开始做吧。
Start leaning in." We're seeing designers of that team starting to push PRs, which never happened before.
开始倾斜。”我们看到该团队的设计师开始推动 PR，这以前从未发生过。
And now other teams, they want to do this as well.
现在其他团队也想这样做。
So it's starting with this kind of grassroots experience.
所以它是从这种草根经验开始的。
I would say the places have been very formal.
我想说这些地方非常正式。
I would say the beginning has been the top.
我想说，开始就是顶峰。
Tomer Cohen: The product executive teams, basically we move from functional leaders, design, PM, BD, and so on to product areas leaders, and they basically rock across the stack and they also go for a 360 with all of those functions to see if they're really able to do a full stack building experience.
Tomer Cohen：产品执行团队，基本上我们从职能领导者、设计、PM、BD 等转向产品领域领导者，他们基本上在整个堆栈中摇摆不定，他们也会选择具有所有这些功能的 360，看看他们是否真的能够提供全堆栈构建体验。
Then we're also launching at the junior side a new program called the Associate Product Builder Program, where basically we used to have our APM program, which this is about it's ending this year.
然后，我们还在初级方面启动了一个名为 Associate Product Builder Program 的新计划，基本上我们以前有 APM 计划，该计划将于今年结束。
And then starting January, we're going to start having our APB program and they're going to come into LinkedIn.
然后从一月份开始，我们将开始开展 APB 计划，他们将进入 LinkedIn。
We're going to teach them how to code, design and PM at LinkedIn.
我们将教他们如何在 LinkedIn 上编码、设计和项目管理。
They're going to go through a pretty rigorous training process, and then they're going to join those pods, and gradually we're going to grow that program to be a material part of LinkedIn as well.
他们将经历相当严格的培训过程，然后他们将加入这些小组，我们将逐渐将该计划发展成为 LinkedIn 的重要组成部分。
Lenny Rachitsky: Wow.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：哇。
So this might be the future of the APM program is this full stack builder APM-ish program.
因此，这可能是 APM 程序的未来，即这个完整的堆栈构建器 APM 式程序。
Tomer Cohen: In many ways, we've built some pretty amazing...
托默·科恩：在很多方面，我们已经构建了一些非常令人惊叹的......
I'm really excited for that group.
我对这个小组感到非常兴奋。
I wish I could join it.
我希望我能加入它。
But we build amazing training for them.
但我们为他们提供了令人惊叹的培训。
And in many ways, we're going to use that training to think about how we roll it across the organization.
在很多方面，我们将利用该培训来思考如何在整个组织中推广它。
We're kind of using the lens of you have great technical skills, but you're not an engineer at a company yet, or you have great design taste, but you haven't designed at scale in company yet, and we're going to teach you how to do it at LinkedIn, but the training we're going to use a lot to extend across the company as well.
我们使用的视角是，你拥有出色的技术技能，但你还不是公司的工程师，或者你有很好的设计品味，但你还没有在公司进行大规模设计，我们将教你如何在 LinkedIn 上做到这一点，但我们也将大量使用培训来扩展到整个公司。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。
So you have these programs, these pilots and these pods, and you said what you're looking at to see if this is something you roll out is experiment velocity times quality times time.
所以你有这些程序、这些飞行员和这些吊舱，你说你要看看这是否是你推出的东西，是实验速度乘以质量乘以时间。
Lenny Rachitsky: Got it.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：明白了。
And I guess I know it's early, but just you said you're seeing that it's saving teams a few hours a week at this point, something like that?
我想我知道现在还为时过早，但你刚才说你看到它每周为团队节省了几个小时，类似的事情？
Tomer Cohen: Yeah.
托默·科恩：是的。
And I think the feedback has been the most important part.
我认为反馈是最重要的部分。
Right?
正确的？
The way to think about this is just like you build a product.
思考这个问题的方式就像你构建一个产品一样。
So we're building this product internally and you want to experiment with some kind of early adopters who will give you feedback, and the feedback has been amazing.
所以我们正在内部构建这个产品，你想尝试一些早期采用者，他们会给你反馈，反馈是惊人的。
In fact, our top talent are the ones who are using this the most at LinkedIn.
事实上，我们的顶尖人才是在 LinkedIn 使用此功能最多的人。
And the feedback from them has been incredible in terms because they're also willing to spend the time and give the feedback as well.
他们的反馈令人难以置信，因为他们也愿意花时间提供反馈。
And the response from them has been incredible in terms of like the quality of their output, the time they're spending on this to get the value back, their desire to be part of this and actually scale this and make this even better.
他们的反应令人难以置信，比如他们的产出质量，他们花在这上面以获取价值的时间，他们渴望参与其中并实际扩展它并使之变得更好。
So that's where a lot of the excitement has been from how they're using it and the quality we've seen there.
因此，这就是他们如何使用它以及我们在那里看到的质量所带来的很多兴奋之处。
I would say in six months or so, we'll be able to see a lot more of the organization use it and you'll start seeing those top line numbers will build as well.
我想说，在六个月左右的时间里，我们将能够看到更多的组织使用它，并且您将开始看到这些顶线数字也会增加。
Lenny Rachitsky: That is a really interesting insight that the top performers are finding the most success, because there's always been this question, is AI going to just make people that are not amazing, more amazing, or is it going to make amazing people even more amazing?
Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个非常有趣的见解，顶尖的人才会取得最大的成功，因为一直存在这样的问题，人工智能是否只会让那些并不令人惊奇的人变得更加令人惊奇，或者它会让令人惊奇的人变得更加令人惊奇？
And it sounds like it's likely the latter.
听起来很可能是后者。
Tomer Cohen: Yes.
托默·科恩：是的。
And in many ways, it's surprising, it's not surprising.
从很多方面来说，这既令人惊讶，又不足为奇。
I've seen this also when we were...
我们在一起的时候我也看到过这个...
It's surprising because you want everybody else to be part of this and lean in.
这是令人惊讶的，因为你希望其他人都参与其中并参与进来。
I think top talent has this tendency of continuously trying to get better at their craft and this innate need to be at the cutting edge of how you build, and I think we're seeing this here as well.
我认为顶尖人才有这种不断努力提高自己技能的倾向，并且这种天生的需要处于构建方式的最前沿，我认为我们在这里也看到了这一点。
This is why I had this phrase I say with the team that if we build all those tools, will they use it?
这就是为什么我对团队说这句话：如果我们构建所有这些工具，他们会使用它吗？
And I know right now the answer is no. It's not enough to give them the tools to use it.
我现在知道答案是否定的。仅仅为他们提供使用它的工具是不够的。
You have to build the incentives programs, the motivation, the examples to how you do it.
你必须建立激励计划、动机以及如何做到这一点的例子。
They need to see other people being successful as well.
他们也需要看到其他人取得成功。
Tomer Cohen: And I've seen this also when we're shifting LinkedIn from a desktop company into a mobile company.
Tomer Cohen：当我们将 LinkedIn 从一家桌面公司转变为一家移动公司时，我也看到了这一点。
It was a very similar process.
这是一个非常相似的过程。
It's very hard.
这很难。
Change management here is going to be a critical part.
这里的变革管理将是一个关键部分。
I think I see a lot of companies roll out their agents and just expecting companies to adopt.
我想我看到很多公司推出了他们的代理，只是期望公司采用。
It doesn't work this way.
这是行不通的。
Some will adopt.
有些会采用。
That tends to be your cutting edge 5% of talent that just wants new tools and they have a bias for change.
这往往是 5% 的前沿人才，他们只想要新工具，并且倾向于变革。
But the vast majority needs to work for change management in how they do it, and that requires being a lot more thoughtful about the cultural aspect of it, which is by far from me the biggest and most important thing to do.
但绝大多数人都需要致力于改变管理的方式，这需要对它的文化方面进行更多的思考，这对我来说是迄今为止最重要、最重要的事情。
Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。
I want to spend time there.
我想在那里度过时光。
And it makes a lot of sense why people don't spend time here because they have so much to do.
人们不在这里花时间是很有意义的，因为他们有太多事情要做。
They got to ship things.
他们得运送东西。
Their days are already busy.
他们的日子已经很忙碌了。
You have to now carve out time to learn this new tool that'll not pay off for a while.
您现在必须抽出时间来学习这个新工具，但它在一段时间内不会有回报。
So I get why people are like, "Okay, okay, I'll get there.
所以我明白为什么人们会说：“好吧，好吧，我会到达那里。
I'll use it someday," but they don't.
有一天我会用它，”但他们没有。
This idea of culture, when I saw you share this initially, this is the third piece of making this successful.
这种文化理念，当我最初看到你分享这个时，这是使这个成功的第三个部分。
So there's the platform of getting the code base ready for people for AI to work with.
因此，有一个平台可以为人们提供人工智能使用的代码库。
Then there's the tool, like the agents you've talked about, and then there's the culture.
然后是工具，就像你谈到的代理一样，然后是文化。
Is there more there that you can share of just what has actually worked in helping get people on board?
您是否可以分享更多在帮助人们参与方面实际发挥作用的内容？
One thing I heard is creating a little bit of FOMO of like, okay, only a few people can use this and you have to sign up to get access.
我听到的一件事是创造了一点 FOMO，比如，好吧，只有少数人可以使用这个，你必须注册才能访问。
What's worked in getting people to get on board?
是什么让人们加入进来？
Tomer Cohen: Yeah.
托默·科恩：是的。
I think this is where I emphasize to people that getting everything done, the platforms, the tools is not going to be sufficient.
我认为这就是我向人们强调的地方，仅靠平台和工具来完成所有事情是不够的。
It's a prerequisite for this to work, but not sufficient for this to work because it really requires you to invest a lot in the cultural aspects of how do you get people to lean into this one.
这是其发挥作用的先决条件，但还不足以使其发挥作用，因为它确实需要您在如何让人们倾向于这一方面的文化方面投入大量资金。
And this one might feel slow at first, but I've seen this before with our transformation of thinking from desktop to mobile.
一开始可能会感觉很慢，但随着我们的思维从桌面到移动的转变，我之前已经看到过这一点。
And once it picks up, it actually maintains very high velocity.
一旦它加速，它实际上会保持非常高的速度。
One, people are really incentivized by how you define expectations for them.
第一，人们确实会因为你如何定义对他们的期望而受到激励。
So to think about what is the expectation of somebody in the role, whatever-
所以要考虑一下扮演这个角色的人的期望是什么——
Lenny Rachitsky: So like changing performance review sort of things.
Lenny Rachitsky：就像改变绩效评估之类的事情一样。
Tomer Cohen: Very much so.
托默·科恩：非常如此。
So everything from how you hire to calibration and evaluation.
从如何招聘到校准和评估，一切都是如此。
And one thing I want to see there early is this kind of AI agency and fluency.
我希望尽早看到的一件事是这种人工智能的代理性和流畅性。
Like I mentioned, the tools are there.
就像我提到的，工具就在那里。
The question is, would you use them?
问题是，你会使用它们吗？
Because the tools will be good enough, but not great at the beginning.
因为这些工具已经足够好，但一开始就不是很好。
That's the classic thing of every good MVP tool.
这是每个优秀 MVP 工具的经典之处。
They're good enough, but they're not great.
他们足够好，但还不够伟大。
And then you kind of want to build that agency to make the tool better.
然后你想建立一个机构来改进这个工具。
We're in this kind of notion of we're going to make this better for LinkedIn together.
我们的想法是，我们将共同让 LinkedIn 变得更好。
Two is piloting success inside of your organization.
二是在组织内部试行成功。
That's the pod model where you're showing that not only this could work, it's actually having success.
这就是 Pod 模型，您可以在其中展示这不仅可行，而且实际上正在取得成功。
So we have even our partnerships team, our BD team, being able to go instead of relying on waiting for an engineer to help build the developer portal and build the connectors there.
因此，我们甚至有我们的合作伙伴团队、我们的 BD 团队，能够直接离开，而不是依赖等待工程师帮助构建开发人员门户并在那里构建连接器。
Tomer Cohen: Literally one of our head of partnerships just went and did it himself.
托默·科恩：实际上，我们的一位合作伙伴负责人亲自去做了这件事。
Didn't even delegate to his team.
甚至没有委托给他的团队。
And their goal is to say like, "Hey, I can do it.
他们的目标是说，“嘿，我能做到。
You can do it as well." Those examples are really, really powerful.
你也可以做到。”这些例子真的非常非常有力。
I talked about the associate product builder program where we are going to be very focused on training.
我谈到了副产品制造商计划，我们将非常注重培训。
I think that will send a really strong message across the organization.
我认为这将在整个组织中发出非常强烈的信息。
People will see this talent and what they can do, and I think that will create that movement.
人们会看到这种才能以及他们的能力，我认为这将引发这场运动。
But celebrating wins in all hands, highlighting people and showing those examples.
但要庆祝所有人的胜利，突出人物并展示这些例子。
One example we've seen recently, people really looked at it in a surprise lens, but then it kind of, I think, really opened up a lens for them.
我们最近看到的一个例子，人们确实以一种惊讶的视角看待它，但我认为，这确实为他们打开了一个视角。
We had somebody in our user research team.
我们的用户研究团队中有一些人。
We had an opening for a PM on the growth team, and that role was open for a while, and she said that, "I think I can do it."
我们在增长团队中有一个 PM 的空缺，这个职位已经空缺了一段时间，她说，“我想我能做到。”
Tomer Cohen: And she used all these tools.
托默·科恩：她使用了所有这些工具。
This is a user researcher becoming a growth PM, not usually the career path you see, but she was excited about the area.
这是一位用户研究员成为一名增长型产品经理，这通常不是你看到的职业道路，但她对这个领域感到兴奋。
She used all those tools, and she's now a growth PM on the team.
她使用了所有这些工具，现在她是团队中的增长产品经理。
And really, you can start thinking about her more as a full stack builder ultimately.
事实上，你最终可以开始将她更多地视为一个全栈构建者。
But seeing those openings and then highlighting those two people, actually people who are doing this have been a great example of it.
但看到这些空缺，然后突出这两个人，实际上正在这样做的人就是一个很好的例子。
And then just making sure that those tools are accessible.
然后确保这些工具可以访问。
People can provide feedback, you share a lot, has been an incredible part of this.
人们可以提供反馈，你分享很多，这是其中令人难以置信的一部分。
It's not enough to be top-down directive that this is how we want to work.
仅仅自上而下地指示这就是我们想要的工作方式是不够的。
People want to feel like there are success stories.
人们想要感觉有成功的故事。
They feel like it's worth their time.
他们觉得这值得他们花时间。
It feels it's a movement they want to be part of, and then ultimately they can see successes in how they do it.
他们感觉这是一场他们想参与的运动，然后最终他们可以看到他们的做法取得了成功。
Lenny Rachitsky: I love this kind of comparison to the shift to mobile.
Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢与向移动设备的转变进行这种比较。
We all went through that and there's all these stories of companies requiring you to show mobile mocks.
我们都经历过这一点，而且有很多公司要求你展示移动模拟的故事。
That's the only way we're going to operate.
这是我们运作的唯一方式。
Now everything you have to ship has to be on mobile, and it's interesting how similar this is to them, to that experience.
现在，您必须发送的所有内容都必须在移动设备上进行，有趣的是，这与他们的体验非常相似。
And so a few things you just shared here just to kind of summarize some of the things that have worked for you.
您刚刚在这里分享的一些内容只是为了总结一些对您有用的内容。
Showing wins, celebrating wins, showing people what other folks are doing with AI tools, creating a program that people enroll into and make it a little bit exclusive.
展示胜利、庆祝胜利、向人们展示其他人正在使用人工智能工具做什么、创建一个人们注册的计划并使其具有一点排他性。
This performance review piece is really interesting because that really will change people's behaviors.
这篇绩效评估文章非常有趣，因为这确实会改变人们的行为。
Here's how we get promoted.
这就是我们如何晋升。
Have you actually already made that change to the PM?
你真的已经对总理做出了这样的改变吗？
I guess it's every track, I imagine, not just product management.
我想这是每一个轨道，而不仅仅是产品管理。
Have you already made that change or is it kind of like a work in progress?
您已经做出了这样的改变还是有点像正在进行中的工作？
Tomer Cohen: So there was two aspects to it.
托默·科恩：所以有两个方面。
Once I moved my team, my directs, we did 360 for them.
当我调动我的团队和我的主管后，我们就为他们做了 360 度全方位服务。
So their 360 was, if you came from PM, you had the designers on your team rate you.
所以他们的 360 度是，如果你来自 PM，你的团队中的设计师就会对你进行评价。
And so that had its own, and then we shared those with them, and that had its own kind of motivation.
所以这有它自己的，然后我们与他们分享这些，这有它自己的动机。
But then we broadly took it across.
但后来我们广泛地接受了它。
So when we hire right now, we look for those.
因此，当我们现在招聘时，我们会寻找这些人。
And then this upcoming cycle, we do a bi-annual.
然后在即将到来的周期中，我们每两年举办一次。
That's going to be part of the performance evaluation piece and we announce it to everybody.
这将成为绩效评估的一部分，我们将向所有人宣布。
And for what, it's where people are excited to show.
而这正是人们兴奋地展示的地方。
And they're excited to know how they're going to be...
他们很高兴知道自己将如何......
It's always about, like, "I want to know how I'm being rated or evaluated." So just being able to show those examples has been a big part of it.
它总是关于“我想知道人们如何评价我”。因此，能够展示这些例子就已经是其中的一个重要部分了。
Tomer Cohen: The other thing I would say, it takes time for this program and its formality to roll out across the entire organization, and I was intentionally not trying to be quick at rolling this out to everybody because I think that just dilutes the value of it really quickly because it's not about...
托默·科恩：我要说的另一件事是，这个计划及其正式在整个组织中推广需要时间，我故意不试图快速向每个人推广这个计划，因为我认为这只会很快稀释它的价值，因为它不是关于……
I could care less about your title.
我不太关心你的头衔。
I care about how you work.
我关心你的工作方式。
So calling you a full stack builder is not what I'm looking for.
所以称你为全栈构建者并不是我想要的。
Changing your mindset to a full stack mindset is what I'm looking for.
我正在寻找将您的思维方式转变为全栈思维方式。
You're thinking you can do the whole thing.
你认为你可以完成整件事。
You're looking at those tools and looking at how to do it.
您正在研究这些工具并研究如何做到这一点。
Tomer Cohen: So one of the things I've said is if you're looking for a formal reorg or declaration to start building differently, you're waiting too long.
托默·科恩：所以我说过的一件事是，如果你正在寻求正式的重组或声明来开始不同的建设，那么你就等得太久了。
Look, my biggest thing is here's a permission for me to just not wait and just go.
听着，我最重要的事情就是允许我不要等待，直接走。
So whether or not you have the right tools or not, go build the tool, use a tool from the outside, bring it in, show those examples.
因此，无论您是否拥有合适的工具，都要构建该工具，使用外部的工具，将其引入，展示这些示例。
In many ways, prove that you are a full stack builder in mindset before anything else come to mind.
在很多方面，在想到其他事情之前，证明你是一个心态上的全栈构建者。
And that just naturally will happen, and that's also where we've seen some of our best talent just goes and leans a lot into.
这自然会发生，这也是我们看到一些最优秀的人才投入并大量投入的地方。
Lenny Rachitsky: I love that.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢这个。
I was going to actually mention that quote.
我实际上要提到那句话。
Someone you shared, you work with told me exactly that quote you just shared, so I'm glad you brought it up of just if you're waiting for a reorg, you're not thinking about it the right way.
你分享的、与你共事的人准确地告诉了我你刚才分享的那句话，所以我很高兴你提起它，如果你正在等待重组，那么你没有以正确的方式思考它。
How do you encourage people to actually play with these tools on their own?
您如何鼓励人们自己实际使用这些工具？
Are you just like, "Go take a few days to play with AI?" Is it just try it?
你是否会说“花几天时间玩一下人工智能？”难道只是尝试一下吗？
Or is there anything formal you've seen of just getting people to more try this on their own without joining this program?
或者您是否见过任何正式的方式让人们在不加入该计划的情况下更多地自行尝试？
Tomer Cohen: A lot of the tools we've made, we've been sharing them regularly.
Tomer Cohen：我们制作的很多工具，我们都定期分享。
A few of my all hands have been all about how to use those tools.
我的全部精力都集中在如何使用这些工具上。
But then at the same time, we're kind of inviting, have you found a new tool that works really well for you?
但与此同时，我们有点邀请您，您是否找到了真正适合您的新工具？
Share it, show it.
分享它，展示它。
Again, it could be Slack, could be Messages, Teams and so on, how you do it.
同样，它可以是 Slack，可以是 Messages、Teams 等等，看你怎么做。
But the idea is really to start getting that investment in how things work.
但我们的想法实际上是开始对事物的运作方式进行投资。
Actually, I think in general, you can feel overwhelmed by tools right now, by recipes and how to do things like what's your prompt and what's my prompt.
事实上，我认为总的来说，你现在可能会对工具、食谱以及如何做事情感到不知所措，比如你的提示是什么，我的提示是什么。
But really it's finding something that kind of works really well, that can gravitate around and really invest in that's been those areas.
但实际上，它是在寻找一些非常有效、能够吸引人们并真正投资于这些领域的东西。
But I think we've had this invitation to go and explore and go and bring in stuff that you think are great.
但我认为我们已经收到邀请去探索并带来你认为很棒的东西。
And in many ways, bring others along on the journey.
在很多方面，让其他人也参与其中。
It's one good way to make the influence much bigger than a few folks who are doing really well with this.
这是一种比少数在这方面做得很好的人更大的影响力的好方法。
Lenny Rachitsky: Are there any surprises on the negative side that have come out of this, of PRD is just feeling like AI driven, people slowing down unexpectedly?
Lenny Rachitsky：PRD 的负面影响有什么令人惊讶的吗？感觉像是人工智能驱动的，人们出乎意料地放慢了速度？
Is there anything that surprised you of just like, "Okay, this is actually not great"?
有没有什么事情让您感到惊讶，就像“好吧，这实际上不太好”？
Tomer Cohen: Yeah, we mentioned a few of them.
托默·科恩：是的，我们提到了其中的一些。
I was hoping for some tools to work off the shelf really well.
我希望有一些现成的工具能够很好地工作。
It was never the case because we had to invest quite a lot.
但事实并非如此，因为我们必须投入大量资金。
Tomer Cohen: Never the case.
托默·科恩：从来没有这样过。
We had to invest quite a lot.
我们必须投入大量资金。
And again, part of it is we just have a lot of legacy information and code based and knowledge and designs and so on.
再说一次，部分原因是我们只有大量遗留信息和基于代码的知识和设计等等。
So a lot of the companies we work with are seeing this as a great growth opportunity for them as well to invest, but I do think it's a big area of investment as well.
因此，与我们合作的许多公司都认为这对他们来说是一个巨大的增长机会以及投资机会，但我确实认为这也是一个很大的投资领域。
We talked about not just giving access to all of your context which we started with, and we were like, "Oh, here's access to all the drive, all information," failed miserably and hallucinates like crazy." People gravitating towards different tools, like our goal was to converge on tools, but that was pretty hard.
我们谈到的不仅仅是提供对我们开始时的所有上下文的访问，我们就像，“哦，这里可以访问所有驱动器，所有信息”，惨败并疯狂地产生幻觉。”人们倾向于不同的工具，就像我们的目标是集中在工具上一样，但这非常困难。
Tomer Cohen: And then I think in terms of quality, we've just seen better quality, but I think it's because, again, where we are in the stage is still the early adopters and they're doing a few iterations in terms of how to do it.
托默·科恩：然后我认为就质量而言，我们刚刚看到了更好的质量，但我认为这是因为我们所处的阶段仍然是早期采用者，他们正在就如何做到这一点进行一些迭代。
But I would say the tooling adoption is hard.
但我想说，采用工具是很困难的。
And then I think for some people, this is important for me to kind of state, some people do not want to be full-stack builders, and that's completely okay.
然后我认为对于某些人来说，这对我来说很重要，有些人不想成为全栈构建者，这是完全可以的。
Some people see themselves in specialization, and I think specialization has a place and a role.
有些人认为自己是专业化的，我认为专业化有其地位和作用。
So I didn't want the message to be across the organization I expect everybody to be a full-stack builder.
因此，我不希望整个组织都传达这样的信息，我希望每个人都成为全栈构建者。
I do not.
我不知道。
I think there are system builders that empower full-stack builders, and then you have people who are specialized.
我认为有些系统构建者可以为全栈构建者提供支持，然后还有专门的人员。
But I don't think we need as many specialized people as we did in the past.
但我认为我们不像过去那样需要那么多专业人士。
Lenny Rachitsky: I didn't actually realize this until just now.
Lenny Rachitsky：直到现在我才真正意识到这一点。
So is this their title now instead of product manager engineer, they're full stack builder?
那么这是他们现在的头衔，而不是产品经理工程师，他们是全栈构建者？
Tomer Cohen: We have a full stack builder title formally inside the organization, and we are gradually putting people in that bucket.
Tomer Cohen：我们在组织内部正式拥有全栈构建者头衔，并且我们正在逐步将人员归入该类别。
Lenny Rachitsky: So there's a whole career ladder that's forming.
Lenny Rachitsky：所以整个职业阶梯正在形成。
There's a whole...
有一整...
Okay.
好的。
That's a bigger deal than I even thought.
这比我想象的要重要。
So where are you finding these folks mostly coming from, like product, engineering, design?
那么你发现这些人主要来自哪里，比如产品、工程、设计？
I imagine it's a mix, but just is there a most common trend?
我想这是一个混合体，但有一个最常见的趋势吗？
Tomer Cohen: It's a mix.
托默·科恩：这是一个混合体。
People listening, I would just think about just go over your org and imagine who can do it, who can right now flex across those functions, whether it is engineering, design, product, even BD, and what you'll find is there's already quite a few that can flex across.
听着的人们，我只是想看看你的组织，想象一下谁可以做到这一点，谁现在可以跨这些职能，无论是工程、设计、产品，甚至是 BD，你会发现已经有相当多的人可以跨这些职能。
Lenny Rachitsky: Interesting.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：有趣。
Are there any functions you think are especially successful at this?
您认为有哪些功能在这方面特别成功？
Not to play any favorites, but I don't know.
不玩任何最爱，但我不知道。
Are you finding like, okay?
你发现了吗，好吗？
Or you could also not highlight any specific.
或者您也可以不突出显示任何具体内容。
Tomer Cohen: No, I think it's a mental model of how you do it.
托默·科恩：不，我认为这是你如何做的心理模型。
I think if I were to play what's the hardest craft to potentially learn, I think design has a lot more work to get the design agents to be really, really good.
我认为，如果我要玩最难学的手艺，我认为设计还有很多工作要做，才能让设计代理变得非常非常优秀。
So I think designers have a little bit of a leg up in terms of others learning their craft than the vice versa.
所以我认为设计师在其他人学习他们的手艺方面比反之亦然有一点优势。
But I honestly think it's a mindset.
但老实说，我认为这是一种心态。
I've seen designers code, I've seen PMs kind of design and do well.
我见过设计师的代码，也见过产品经理的设计并且做得很好。
And this is why I think when you kind of step back and you think about people in your organization and who can flex, I think you'll see them show up in many areas.
这就是为什么我认为当你退后一步思考组织中的人员以及可以灵活调整的人员时，我认为你会看到他们出现在许多领域。
And what I think you'll find there is they have the agency, they're leaning into new things, they have the fluency, like they're already building new experiences and they have that growth mindset that they just want to get better, so it doesn't matter what they learn at school or what label somebody put in them when they join the company.
我认为你会发现他们有代理权，他们倾向于新事物，他们很流畅，就像他们已经在建立新的体验一样，他们有成长心态，他们只是想变得更好，所以他们在学校学到什么或者加入公司时别人给他们贴上什么标签并不重要。
Lenny Rachitsky: What I love about a lot of this is it's the easiest time to transition between different product roles than it's ever been.
Lenny Rachitsky：我最喜欢的一点是，这是在不同产品角色之间转换的最简单的时间。
Design's moving to PM, and sure, or just moving to this new role, it makes it so much easier to, like you said, that researcher became a growth PM.
设计正在转向 PM，当然，或者只是转向这个新角色，就像你说的那样，它使得研究人员成为增长 PM 变得更加容易。
Tomer Cohen: And this is probably my biggest advice slash motivation I give to the team because what I tell them is ultimately...
托默·科恩：这可能是我给团队的最大建议，因为我告诉他们的最终是……
By the way, this is for me as well.
顺便说一句，这也适合我。
I think about it the same way.
我也这么想。
The incentives for you are so aligned with your organization of what we're asking for, right?
对您的激励措施与您的组织非常一致，符合我们的要求，对吧？
Because we need you to change.
因为我们需要你改变。
We want to be a more agile, adaptive, resilient organization that can deal with the pace of change, but you want as well for your own career.
我们希望成为一个更加敏捷、适应性强、有弹性的组织，能够应对变化的步伐，但您也希望自己的职业生涯如此。
You want to be at the cutting edge of how you build.
您希望处于构建方式的最前沿。
So the incentives are really aligned between what you need for your own career and what the organization needs you to do.
因此，激励措施确实符合你自己职业生涯的需要和组织需要你做的事情。
So there's that permission to go and do it for me is ideally kind of a tailwind in what they want to do more than anything else.
因此，允许我为我做这件事对于他们最想做的事情来说是理想的顺风车。
Lenny Rachitsky: Maybe a last question for people that are inspired and like, "Okay, this is what we need to be doing," any just tips for someone starting down this road to be successful at trying something like this at their company?
Lenny Rachitsky：对于那些受到启发并喜欢“好吧，这就是我们需要做的事情”的人来说，也许是最后一个问题，对于那些开始走这条路并在他们的公司成功尝试类似事情的人有什么建议吗？
Tomer Cohen: I would say I would start with the notion of how do you want to bring this just structure.
托默·科恩：我想说我会从你想如何带来这个公正的结构的概念开始。
I would think about the platform you need to build, the tools you want to bring, and then I would spend a lot of time on the culture.
我会考虑你需要构建的平台，你想要带来的工具，然后我会花很多时间在文化上。
Platform and tools I think would be, again, a prerequisite, but not sufficient, and the cultural aspect is really important.
我认为平台和工具将再次成为先决条件，但还不够，文化方面非常重要。
I would think a lot about how you bring people along.
我会思考很多关于如何带领人们一起前进的问题。
So for one of the learnings we had that probably able to do it differently right now, if I were to redo this program was, for a while I was working very closely with my core team on it, the core kind of full stack building team that were in charge of building all this material, but the organization was always asking questions.
因此，对于我们现在可能能够以不同方式做的事情之一，如果我要重做这个程序，有一段时间我与我的核心团队密切合作，负责构建所有这些材料的核心全栈构建团队，但组织总是提出问题。
"What's going on?
“这是怎么回事？
Who is doing it?
谁在做这件事？
What are the tools?" And in retrospect, we could have done a lot more in the flow to just show them and get them to already use early tools or be aware of it versus doing a small team on the side.
工具是什么？”回想起来，我们本可以在流程中做更多的事情来向他们展示并让他们已经使用早期的工具或意识到这一点，而不是组建一个小团队。
Tomer Cohen: So it's okay to start with a small team.
Tomer Cohen：所以从小团队开始是可以的。
I think it's really important.
我认为这非常重要。
But at the same time, just making sure there's visibility across the whole thing is really powerful.
但与此同时，确保整个事情的可见性确实非常强大。
Being patient and being willing to invest.
要有耐心并愿意投资。
I always give this example of, we always give this example of like, "Oh, look at this startup.
我总是举这样的例子，我们总是举这样的例子，“哦，看看这个初创公司。
They built this in a week." Yes, you can build lifestyle in a week right now if you start from scratch.
他们在一周内建成了这个。”是的，如果你从头开始，你现在可以在一周内建立生活方式。
It's actually not hard.
其实并不难。
But when you are trying to transform a large organization, you want to have this impatient about the goal and you have to have a high ambition, but being very thoughtful and patient about how you bring it to life and the key things you have to invest in.
但当你试图改造一个大型组织时，你希望对目标不耐烦，你必须有远大的抱负，但对如何实现它以及你必须投资的关键事情要非常深思熟虑和耐心。
If you don't invest in your platform, I just don't see how this could be a successful outcome.
如果你不投资你的平台，我就不明白这怎么可能是一个成功的结果。
If you don't invest in customizing the tools for you, then you're just going to get vanilla generic agents from the outside.
如果您不投资为您定制工具，那么您只能从外部获得普通的通用代理。
Tomer Cohen: So being aware of the investment and making sure you actually allocate resource to it, this is kind of the classic, be willing to invest upfront so you can reap the benefit after, versus saying, "Hey, why am I not seeing us moving into 2X the productivity in a week?" That's not going to be this way.
托默·科恩：因此，了解投资并确保您实际分配资源，这是一种经典，愿意预先投资，这样您就可以在之后获得收益，而不是说：“嘿，为什么我没有看到我们在一周内将生产力提高到原来的 2 倍？”事情不会是这样的。
You can see it with some people, but starting to collect those examples and starting to really think about the transformation is really key.
你可以在某些人身上看到这一点，但开始收集这些例子并开始真正思考转变确实是关键。
Lenny Rachitsky: This is so incredibly cool.
Lenny Rachitsky：这太酷了。
I know that a lot of CPOs and heads of product and all kinds of leaders are reaching out to you trying to figure out what you've learned how to do this.
我知道很多首席产品官、产品负责人和各种领导者都在联系你，试图了解你已经学会了如何做到这一点。
So I love that we went deep on all these things.
所以我喜欢我们深入研究所有这些事情。
Just final question, is there anything else that we haven't shared that you think might be helpful for listeners to hear or maybe just to double down on before we get to our very exciting lightning round?
最后一个问题，还有什么我们没有分享的，您认为可能对听众有帮助的内容，或者可能只是在我们进入非常激动人心的闪电回合之前加倍努力的内容？
Tomer Cohen: Whether you're in an organization, you're waiting for your leader to roll this out or you're a leader trying to roll this out, I would not wait.
托默·科恩：无论你是在一个组织中，你是在等待你的领导者推出这个产品，还是你是一个试图推出这个产品的领导者，我都不会等待。
The first thing I've done, which I thought in retrospect was very hopeful is I did announce this upfront we are going to this mode.
我做的第一件事是我预先宣布了我们将进入这种模式，现在回想起来我认为这是非常有希望的。
We're starting in pockets, we're starting in pods, we're building the tools, but this is the mountain we're going to go after, and in many ways, we're going to make it great.
我们从口袋开始，从吊舱开始，我们正在构建工具，但这就是我们要追求的山峰，在很多方面，我们将使它变得伟大。
I also announced that this is not just an end state, it's a kind of continuous progress.
我还宣布，这不仅仅是一个最终状态，而是一种持续的进步。
There's no state we're going to get to as much as continuously just trying to be better.
没有什么状态比不断地努力变得更好更能让我们达到这样的境界了。
And in many ways, to compete, you just want to be better than others in how you build because the version of building will completely just transform itself every few years or so.
从很多方面来说，为了竞争，你只想在建造方式上比其他人更好，因为建造的版本每隔几年左右就会彻底改变自己。
Tomer Cohen: So do not wait.
托默·科恩：所以不要等待。
Really focus on the progress you're making, over communicate with your team, not just the vision, but also the progress you're making, almost like holding yourself responsible.
真正关注你正在取得的进展，与你的团队进行过度沟通，不仅仅是愿景，还有你正在取得的进展，就像让自己负责一样。
If you're a leader, give yourself KPIs you share with your own teams or OKRs.
如果您是领导者，请为自己制定与自己的团队分享的 KPI 或 OKR。
And if you're inside of the organization, and I would say whether or not or not your CPO or your CEO is announcing this type of program, go do it or join an organization that does it so you can be at the cutting edge of how you build in the future.
如果你在组织内部，我想说，无论你的 CPO 或 CEO 是否宣布此类计划，请去做或加入一个这样做的组织，这样你就可以处于未来建设的最前沿。
Lenny Rachitsky: Tomer, with that, we've reached our very exciting lightning round.
Lenny Rachitsky：Tomer，至此，我们已经进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。
I've got five questions for you.
我有五个问题要问你。
Are you ready?
你准备好了吗？
Lenny Rachitsky: First question, what are two or three books you find yourself recommending most to other people?
Lenny Rachitsky：第一个问题，您发现自己最向其他人推荐的两三本书是什么？
Tomer Cohen: I love to give trios of books that I really like.
托默·科恩：我喜欢赠送我真正喜欢的三本书。
So my current trio is, they're very diverse in topics, so apologies if it's not falling all into tech.
所以我现在的三重奏是，他们的主题非常多样化，所以如果没有全部涉及科技，我很抱歉。
But the first one is called Why Nations Fail.
但第一个叫做“国家为何失败”。
It's a book I read a decade ago even more and the authors of it just won the Nobel Prize last year.
这是一本我十年前读过的书，而且它的作者去年刚刚获得了诺贝尔奖。
And it basically talks about why does some nations succeed and some fail?
它基本上讨论了为什么有些国家成功而有些国家失败？
And it's not the usual explanations we go for, which is, oh, it's culture, it's natural resources, it's the kind of religion.
这不是我们通常所寻求的解释，哦，这是文化，这是自然资源，这是一种宗教。
A lot of those tends to be the kind of immediate excuses people have.
其中很多往往是人们拥有的直接借口。
It kind of falls into two camps.
它分为两个阵营。
Are there extractive or inclusive institutions?
是否存在榨取性或包容性机构？
Can people participate broadly and opportunities shared or there are institutions that basically are supposed to be attracting from many and give to some.
人们能否广泛参与并共享机会，或者有一些机构基本上应该吸引许多人并为某些人提供帮助。
Tomer Cohen: So it's just an incredible way to just think about how you build a nation.
托默·科恩：所以这是一种令人难以置信的方式来思考如何建设一个国家。
And for us at LinkedIn, we think a lot about the idea of opportunities, so how you build a product as well.
对于 LinkedIn 来说，我们思考了很多关于机会的想法，以及如何构建产品。
And it's just a good way to move away from easy explanations into what really makes a country really successful as well.
这也是摆脱简单解释的好方法，转而探讨真正让一个国家真正成功的因素。
Second book, it's called Outlive.
第二本书，叫做《Outlive》。
It's really about the idea, it's kind of like the author, Peter Attia talks about the idea of medicine 3.0, which is really the notion of building personalized medicine, which I think in the world of AI will become incredible in the future.
这实际上是关于想法的，有点像作者 Peter Attia 谈论医学 3.0 的想法，这实际上是建立个性化医疗的概念，我认为在人工智能的世界里，这在未来将变得令人难以置信。
But it's all those, let's call those categories that you should think about for your life so you can just optimize your health as much as possible and goes for everything through fitness to diet to the biggest health factors you should think about.
但这就是所有这些，让我们称之为您一生中应该考虑的那些类别，这样您就可以尽可能优化您的健康，并从健身到饮食再到您应该考虑的最大健康因素。
But it's a great long book.
但这是一本很棒的长书。
Then lastly-
然后最后——
Lenny Rachitsky: The one in my bookshelf behind me.
Lenny Rachitsky：我身后书架上的那个。
Lenny Rachitsky: It's up top.
Lenny Rachitsky：在上面。
You can't actually see it, I think.
我认为你实际上看不到它。
Tomer Cohen: And then lastly, it's a book that also came out many years ago, but it's called The Beginning of Infinity, which I really like, by Deutsche.
托默·科恩：最后，这本书也是多年前出版的，但它的名字叫《无限的开始》，我非常喜欢，作者是德意志银行。
It wasn't an easy read for me, but I love the idea.
这对我来说并不容易阅读，但我喜欢这个想法。
In fact, especially in products, I love the idea of cause and effect, like really finding great explanations for why things happen and then building on top of that your next iterations.
事实上，特别是在产品中，我喜欢因果关系的想法，就像真正找到事情发生原因的很好的解释，然后在此基础上构建你的下一个迭代。
And this book really pushes on the idea of explanations that only once we have a clear understanding of what things happens, then we can have breakthroughs on top of that.
这本书真正推动了解释的理念，即只有当我们清楚地了解发生的事情时，我们才能在此基础上取得突破。
But until we get to a point of clear scientific breakthroughs, we are not going to make significant progress.
但在我们取得明确的科学突破之前，我们不会取得重大进展。
But when you do that, it's really almost like infinite progress you can make on top of that.
但当你这样做时，你几乎可以在此基础上取得无限的进步。
Lenny Rachitsky: Naval's always talking about that last book.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：纳瓦尔总是在谈论最后一本书。
I think I bought it and it was just hard reading this.
我想我买了它，但读起来很难。
Tomer Cohen: It's not an easy read, at least for me.
托默·科恩：这本书读起来并不容易，至少对我来说是这样。
It wasn't an easy read, but it's a very powerful read.
这不是一本容易读的书，但却是一本非常有力的读物。
Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
Is there a favorite recent movie or TV show you really enjoyed?
最近有没有您真正喜欢的最喜欢的电影或电视节目？
Tomer Cohen: So there's a podcast in, it's in Hebrew, it's called One Song, and it takes a song that generally is ideally popular and then goes really deep on the origin and the history of the song, and I love it.
托默·科恩：所以有一个播客，它是希伯来语的，叫做“一首歌”，它需要一首通常非常流行的歌曲，然后深入探讨这首歌的起源和历史，我喜欢它。
I love music and just dissects songs so well.
我热爱音乐，并且能很好地剖析歌曲。
It does a great job also in bringing to life the story behind it.
它在生动地讲述其背后的故事方面也做得很好。
So for me, it just goes back to you thought the song was about something, but then it goes really deep into the actors behind the song, and sometimes it's the words chosen or it's how the lyrics match the music itself, and I just really enjoy that one.
所以对我来说，这只是回到你认为这首歌是关于什么的，但随后它真正深入到歌曲背后的演员，有时是所选择的歌词或者歌词如何与音乐本身相匹配，我真的很喜欢这一点。
Lenny Rachitsky: There's a podcast called Song Exploder, I believe, that is a similar concept that's not in Hebrew, in English, that I'll point people to if you love that one.
Lenny Rachitsky：我相信有一个名为 Song Exploder 的播客，这是一个类似的概念，但不是希伯来语，而是英语，如果你喜欢那个播客，我会向人们指出。
Lenny Rachitsky: Is there a product you've recently discovered that you really love?
Lenny Rachitsky：您最近发现有一款您真正喜欢的产品吗？
Could be an app, could be some clothing, could be a kitchen gadget, type gadget.
可能是一个应用程序，可能是一些衣服，可能是一个厨房小工具，打字小工具。
Tomer Cohen: Can it can be a product I want to have, which I think is actually really easy to do?
Tomer Cohen：它可以成为我想要拥有的、我认为实际上很容易做到的产品吗？
Lenny Rachitsky: I love that.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢这个。
This is a product thinking 101 and just the vision of what you want to see.
这是一款具有 101 思维的产品，也是您想看到的愿景。
Tomer Cohen: So in my car right now, there's Alexa built-in, which is great because the kids can ask for songs all day long and it's a whole show inside of the car.
托默·科恩：现在我的车里内置了 Alexa，这很棒，因为孩子们可以整天点歌，而且车内就是一场完整的表演。
But one of my favorite things to do when this has been doing it for well over two years is I go in and I go into voice mode.
但我最喜欢做的事情之一是，当它已经这样做了两年多时，我进入并进入语音模式。
Tomer Cohen: Yeah, ChatGPT, and then just have a conversation, and that's just friction.
Tomer Cohen：是的，ChatGPT，然后进行对话，这只是摩擦。
I would love to have on my steering wheel a button that invokes my AI friend that can sit next to me in the passenger seat, and I just think that would be such a...
我很想在方向盘上有一个按钮，可以调用我的人工智能朋友，他可以坐在我旁边的乘客座位上，我只是觉得那会是这样的……
I actually think it would rides for people.
我实际上认为它会为人们骑行。
Just that movement, that's just like elimination of friction will transform the experience for me.
仅仅是这个动作，就像消除摩擦一样，就会改变我的体验。
Lenny Rachitsky: On that note, I recently discovered Teslas actually do this now.
Lenny Rachitsky：关于这一点，我最近发现特斯拉现在确实做到了这一点。
If you hold the right wheel, Grok appears and you could talk to Grok.
如果你按住右轮，Grok 就会出现，你可以与 Grok 交谈。
So it's here.
所以它就在这里。
The AI has arrived.
人工智能已经到来。
Yeah.
是的。
I just did it by accident and then it's, "Okay, cool."
我只是偶然这么做了，然后我就说：“好吧，太酷了。”
Tomer Cohen: Great.
托默·科恩：太好了。
So for me, if anybody from Rivian is listening, please bring this in the car.
所以对我来说，如果 Rivian 的任何人在听，请把它带进车里。
Lenny Rachitsky: Rivian's falling behind.
Lenny Rachitsky：Rivian 落后了。
Yeah.
是的。
And you have to use Grok.
而且你必须使用 Grok。
It'd be cool if you could switch to different AIs because it has a personality.
如果你能切换到不同的人工智能那就太酷了，因为它有个性。
Just give me information.
只需给我信息即可。
I don't need you to laugh and give me jokes.
我不需要你笑，给我讲笑话。
Tomer Cohen: Did you need to spend some time with it before or did it have any memory from...
托默·科恩：你之前是否需要花一些时间与它相处，或者它是否有任何记忆……
Did you bring any memory into it?
你把记忆带进去了吗？
Lenny Rachitsky: There's a logged out version and then you could just log in and it connects to your account.
Lenny Rachitsky：有一个注销版本，然后您只需登录即可连接到您的帐户。
Yeah, it's extremely cool.
是的，这非常酷。
No one's talking about it.
没有人谈论它。
It's crazy because I don't know if they launched it fully, but it just appeared.
这很疯狂，因为我不知道他们是否完全启动了它，但它就这样出现了。
Tomer Cohen: Do you talk in the car a lot to it?
托默·科恩：你在车里经常跟它说话吗？
Lenny Rachitsky: I don't use it that much, to be honest, but I should.
Lenny Rachitsky：说实话，我用得不多，但我应该用。
My wife just doesn't love Grok.
我妻子就是不喜欢 Grok。
I think the brand of Grok is a specific brand.
我认为Grok这个品牌是一个特定的品牌。
And so she's like, "Don't talk to Grok in here with me."
所以她说，“别和我一起在这儿和 Grok 说话。”
Tomer Cohen: I love voice mode, so I use it all the time.
Tomer Cohen：我喜欢语音模式，所以我一直使用它。
Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, I love voice mode too.
Lenny Rachitsky：是的，我也喜欢语音模式。
It just interrupts too often.
它只是太频繁地中断了。
That's the issue there, right?
这就是问题所在，对吧？
It's just it stops.
只是它停止了。
Tomer Cohen: By the way, you can set it up.
Tomer Cohen：顺便说一句，你可以设置它。
You can basically say like, "Hey, just let me finish."
你基本上可以这样说：“嘿，让我说完。”
Lenny Rachitsky: I now know that.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：我现在知道了。
I'm learning so much.
我学到了很多。
Okay.
好的。
Two more questions.
还有两个问题。
Do you have a life motto that you often find useful in work or in life?
您是否有一条在工作或生活中经常觉得有用的人生格言？
Tomer Cohen: I think last time I talked about it, I most associated here with, I might be wrong, but I'm not confused, although I don't say it as much anymore.
托默·科恩：我想上次我谈到这个问题时，我与这里最有联系，我可能是错的，但我并不困惑，尽管我不再这么说了。
But I think the one I love, growth mindset is a second religions for us at home.
但我认为我喜欢的成长心态是我们家里的第二宗教。
And one thing I love about, there's a phrase there that is becoming is better than being, which I think ties into the FSB mode a little bit, which is you're always in progress mode, iteration mode.
我喜欢的一件事是，有一个短语是“成为比存在更好”，我认为这与 FSB 模式有一点联系，即你总是处于进步模式、迭代模式。
It's not about reaching a state.
这不是为了达到某种状态。
It's about the journey, the process.
这是关于旅程、过程。
That's what you should fall in love with.
这才是你应该爱上的。
It's about continuously growing and evolving without the negativity of it or there's no sense of FOMO there.
它是关于不断成长和发展，没有负面影响，也没有 FOMO 的感觉。
It's just this continuous thing.
这就是持续不断的事情。
If I look back a year from now and I look back, how much did I grow?
如果一年后我回头看，我成长了多少？
How much do I know?
我知道多少？
What skills to do that again?
有什么技巧可以再次做到这一点？
Where are I becoming better?
我哪里变得更好了？
Do I feel like Tomer version 2026 versus 2025?
我感觉像 Tomer 2026 版还是 2025 版？
What's the delta there?
那里的三角洲是什么？
And I kind of love that as a way of thinking.
我有点喜欢这种思维方式。
Lenny Rachitsky: A great segue to our final question.
Lenny Rachitsky：很好地继续我们的最后一个问题。
By the time this episode comes out, it won't be a secret that you're leaving LinkedIn after 14 years.
当这一集播出时，您在 14 年后离开 LinkedIn 已经不是什么秘密了。
Legendary run.
传奇般的奔跑。
You joined way before the acquisition, you helped them integrate.
您在收购之前就加入了，帮助他们整合。
Just like the way LinkedIn was perceived 14 years ago is so radically different from the way it is today.
就像 14 年前人们对 LinkedIn 的看法与今天截然不同一样。
It's actually really fun and interesting to be there versus how people for a long time felt about LinkedIn.
与人们长期以来对 LinkedIn 的感受相比，去那里实际上真的很有趣。
So I guess the question just how you feeling and what's next?
所以我想问题只是你的感受如何以及接下来会发生什么？
I imagine you're going to get a lot of calls from a lot of people, but what are you planning?
我想你会接到很多人打来的电话，但你打算做什么？
Tomer Cohen: Yeah, so I feel proud.
托默·科恩：是的，所以我感到自豪。
It's been an incredible ride at LinkedIn.
在 LinkedIn 经历了一段不可思议的旅程。
The way I've got to know about LinkedIn deeply the very first time was when I moved to the Valley and I went to a lecture at Stanford about social networks in 2008 and Reid was there and he talked about the power of being a professional communities online, and I was very nerdy about it and thought it was incredible vision, had no plans to join and actually started my own company after.
我第一次深入了解 LinkedIn 的方式是当我搬到硅谷时，2008 年我在斯坦福大学参加了一场关于社交网络的讲座，里德也在场，他谈到了成为在线专业社区的力量，我对此非常书呆子，认为这是令人难以置信的愿景，没有计划加入，后来实际上创办了自己的公司。
But as luck would have it, found myself joining a few years after and just thought the mission was incredible.
但幸运的是，几年后我发现自己加入了，并认为这项任务令人难以置信。
So in many ways it aligned with my purpose and just was an incredible ride to be here.
因此，从很多方面来说，这都符合我的目标，来到这里是一次令人难以置信的旅程。
Tomer Cohen: And I also feel very grateful.
托默·科恩：我也感到非常感激。
I shared this with the company recently.
我最近与公司分享了这一点。
I was starting to take learnings from my experiences here.
我开始从这里的经历中吸取教训。
A lot of it was from tough situations.
其中很多都是来自艰难的情况。
We had a lot of tough situations at LinkedIn and hard calls and late nights, but you learn so much from those and I'm just incredibly grateful.
我们在 LinkedIn 遇到了很多艰难的情况、艰难的电话和深夜，但你从中学到了很多东西，我非常感激。
And I'm excited.
我很兴奋。
I'm excited.
我很兴奋。
I have a bias for change.
我对改变有偏见。
I have a bias for kind of positioning myself in a place where I can learn the most and learn a lot.
我倾向于将自己定位在一个可以学到最多、学到很多东西的地方。
And it's an incredible time to build, so I'm just excited to be thinking of new problem sets and new areas where I can go deep on and invest the next decade in.
这是一个令人难以置信的构建时刻，所以我很高兴能够思考新的问题集和新的领域，我可以在未来十年深入研究并投资这些领域。
Lenny Rachitsky: I think it's going to take a long time for you to not feel like you're working on LinkedIn and to forget about all the things that you have been worrying about for so many years.
Lenny Rachitsky：我认为你需要很长时间才能感觉不到自己是在 LinkedIn 上工作，并忘记多年来一直担心的所有事情。
Tomer Cohen: After you build something for such a long time, and I think you and I talked about it at one point, that I think one of the best traits for a builder is to become very passionate with what they're building.
托默·科恩：在你建造了这么长时间的东西之后，我想你和我曾经谈论过它，我认为建造者最好的特质之一就是对他们正在建造的东西变得非常热情。
Really care.
真的很关心。
Not about the job.
与工作无关。
It's really care about the product.
真的很关心产品。
When you feel the pain when somebody complains and you kind of have this continuous discontent, and it's like for me, it's the notion of raising a baby.
当你因有人抱怨而感到痛苦时，你会感到持续的不满，对我来说，这就是抚养孩子的想法。
So yeah, it's hard.
所以是的，这很难。
It will be hard.
这会很难。
I will always think of LinkedIn as one of the babies I helped grow.
我永远将 LinkedIn 视为我帮助成长的婴儿之一。
Lenny Rachitsky: Well, I'm excited to have you back someday when you figure out what you want to do next and or start whatever you're doing.
Lenny Rachitsky：嗯，我很高兴有一天当你弄清楚下一步要做什么或开始你正在做的事情时你会回来。
I love that this was an excuse to get to know you.
我喜欢这是一个认识你的借口。
Tomer, thank you so much for being here.
托默，非常感谢你来到这里。
Tomer Cohen: It was great to be here.
托默·科恩：很高兴来到这里。
Thanks, Lenny.
谢谢，莱尼。
Lenny Rachitsky: Bye, everyone.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：再见，大家。
Thank you so much for listening.
非常感谢您的聆听。
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如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。
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另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。
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您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。
See you in the next episode.
下一集见。