Why AI is disrupting traditional product management | Tomer Cohen (LinkedIn CPO)

Lenny Rachitsky: I think it's so underappreciated, the turnaround that has happened within LinkedIn.

Lenny Rachitsky：我认为 LinkedIn 内部发生的转变被低估了。

I check it at least 10 times a day.

我每天至少检查10次。

What was the strategy behind it?

其背后的策略是什么？

Tomer Cohen: I start backwards.

托默·科恩：我从倒着开始。

It's like what is the potential here?

好像这里有什么潜力？

If you start from the premise that LinkedIn ultimately is a platform for economic opportunity that sits on top of a very strong social graph.

如果你从这样的前提开始，LinkedIn 最终是一个经济机会的平台，位于一个非常强大的社交图谱之上。

Almost every aspect of economic transaction is possible.

经济交易的几乎每个方面都是可能的。

Lenny Rachitsky: Is there anything tactically that would just like, wow, that really made a big dent in people wanting to come here and post, share interesting content?

Lenny Rachitsky：有没有什么策略可以让人们想来这里发帖、分享有趣的内容？

Tomer Cohen: To really set the new purpose for it, which was this is not a springboard for other products.

Tomer Cohen：真正为其设定新的目标，这不是其他产品的跳板。

This is not a traffic jumpstart, it's not an upsell feed.

这不是流量启动，也不是追加销售。

It's really about people that matter, talking about things that I care about professionally.

这确实是关于重要的人，谈论我专业上关心的事情。

The first thing we did was really making AI first.

我们做的第一件事就是真正把人工智能放在第一位。

Lenny Rachitsky: How do you actually on the ground help people shift their perspective and think AI first?

Lenny Rachitsky：您实际上是如何帮助人们改变观点并首先思考人工智能的？

Tomer Cohen: So it wasn't like, "Oh, we have this cool technology, what can we do with it?" It was like, "Let go of what you've built.

托默·科恩：所以这并不是说，“哦，我们有这项很酷的技术，我们能用它做什么？”就像是，“放弃你所建造的东西。

Go back to the objectives you were trying to solve and now with this technology, how can you do that objective better?"

回到你试图解决的目标，现在有了这项技术，你怎样才能更好地实现这个目标？”

Lenny Rachitsky: There's so much I want to dig into here.

Lenny Rachitsky：我想深入探讨的东西太多了。

Is there anything else that you think would be interesting or useful for folks?

您认为还有什么其他事情对人们来说有趣或有用吗？

Tomer Cohen: AI is the ultimate matchmaker.

托默·科恩：人工智能是终极媒人。

It's underutilized, it's misunderstood, it's really about...

它没有得到充分利用，它被误解了，它实际上是关于......

Lenny Rachitsky: Today my guest is Tomer Cohen.

Lenny Rachitsky：今天我的客人是托默·科恩。

Tomer is chief product officer at LinkedIn overseeing all teams responsible for building and creating LinkedIn products and experiences, including product development, design, business development, content creation, and customer operations.

Tomer 是 LinkedIn 的首席产品官，负责监督负责构建和创造 LinkedIn 产品和体验的所有团队，包括产品开发、设计、业务开发、内容创建和客户运营。

During his tenure at LinkedIn, Tomer was head of the mobile team, led the effort to revamp the LinkedIn feed and to many people surprised, made it extremely interesting in a place I check regularly.

在 LinkedIn 任职期间，Tomer 是移动团队的负责人，领导了 LinkedIn feed 的改进工作，令许多人惊讶的是，它在我定期查看的地方变得非常有趣。

And he was also at the center of shifting LinkedIn to an AI first mindset, which started way before AI became cool.

他也是将 LinkedIn 转变为人工智能优先思维的中心人物，这种思维早在人工智能变得很酷之前就开始了。

In our conversation, Tomer goes inside the strategy behind the transformation of LinkedIn's feed and how they approached making it a place that people wanted to check and make it much more social.

在我们的谈话中，托默深入探讨了 LinkedIn 信息流转型背后的策略，以及他们如何将其打造成人们想要查看的地方，并使其更具社交性。

Lenny Rachitsky: We also get into the one mindset that Tomer credits for helping him rise so quickly within LinkedIn.

Lenny Rachitsky：我们还探讨了 Tomer 认为帮助他在 LinkedIn 中迅速崛起的一种心态。

Also, why Tomer's most repeated mantra is, "We might be wrong, but we are not confused." And so much more.

此外，为什么托默最常重复的口头禅是：“我们可能是错的，但我们并不困惑。”还有更多。

This episode is for anyone wanting to see what great product leadership looks like and wants to be inspired to think bigger.

本集适合任何想要了解优秀产品领导力并希望受到启发以进行更大思考的人。

A big thank you to Shira Gasarch, Dan Roth, Josh Redfern, and Sparsh Argawal for question suggestions that made this episode so interesting.

非常感谢 Shira Gasarch、Dan Roth、Josh Redfern 和 Sparsh Argawal 提出的问题建议，使这一集变得如此有趣。

With that, I bring you Tomer Cohen.

接下来，我为您带来托默·科恩。

Lenny Rachitsky: Tomer, thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast.

Lenny Rachitsky：Tomer，非常感谢您来到这里，欢迎来到播客。

Lenny Rachitsky: Absolutely, my pleasure.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：当然，我很荣幸。

So as I was preparing for this podcast, I reached out to a bunch of people that have worked with you and asked them what I should ask you on this podcast, and interestingly, every single one of them said this one thing that I need to ask you, which is about this phrase that apparently you use all the time.

因此，当我准备这个播客时，我联系了一群与你一起工作过的人，问他们我应该在这个播客上问你什么，有趣的是，他们每个人都说了我需要问你的一件事，这就是关于你显然一直在使用的这句话。

So first of all, can you guess what this phrase might be?

首先，你能猜出这个短语是什么吗？

Tomer Cohen: I have a few.

托默·科恩：我有一些。

Sometimes people call them Tomerisms.

有时人们称它们为 Tomerism。

Tomer Cohen: But probably I might be wrong but not confused.

托默·科恩：但我可能是错的，但我并没有感到困惑。

Lenny Rachitsky: That's the one.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：就是这个。

Amazing.

惊人的。

Okay, so let's talk about this phrase.

好啦，我们就来说说这句话吧。

Tomer Cohen: I don't say it so much anymore.

托默·科恩：我不再说那么多了。

I think it's ingrained into the cultures.

我认为它已经根植于文化之中。

Tomer Cohen: When they think of me, they think of this sentence already.

托默·科恩：当他们想到我时，他们已经想到了这句话。

Lenny Rachitsky: Those are the ultimate things where you don't need to say them as much anymore.

Lenny Rachitsky：这些是终极的事情，你不需要再说太多了。

Okay, so the phrase again is, "We might be wrong but we're not confused."

好吧，这句话又是：“我们可能错了，但我们并不困惑。”

Lenny Rachitsky: Let's talk about this.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我们来谈谈这个吧。

So what does this phrase mean and why do you find it so powerful and important to say often?

那么这句话的意思是什么？为什么你觉得经常说这句话如此强大和重要？

Tomer Cohen: Yeah, by the way, it's a simple phrase, but it has in my opinion, so much depth into that and ultimately something I really believe in.

托默·科恩：是的，顺便说一句，这是一个简单的短语，但在我看来，它有很多深度，最终是我真正相信的。

It's rooted in clarity and principles that ultimately lead to leadership.

它植根于最终导致领导力的清晰度和原则。

And the first time I got the inspiration from it was from a startup founder I met many, many years ago.

我第一次从中获得灵感是来自我很多很多年前认识的一位初创公司创始人。

Their company was on the brink of failure.

他们的公司正处于失败的边缘。

They had their last attempt and they decided on a path forward and after they decided on a path forward, he was still seeing people hedging in different directions and it led into this confusion in the system where we decided people are still hedging, they're still trying out things they thought could work, and he realized that unless they basically all pull through in the same direction, there is no chance they'll be able to be successful.

他们进行了最后一次尝试，决定了前进的道路，在决定前进的道路后，他仍然看到人们在不同的方向上进行对冲，这导致了系统中的混乱，我们认为人们仍在对冲，他们仍在尝试他们认为可行的事情，他意识到，除非他们基本上都朝着同一个方向前进，否则他们就没有机会成功。

Tomer Cohen: Now, pulling through in the same direction doesn't mean you're going to be successful, but this gives you a chance of success and that confusion, the system only luck and save you.

托默·科恩：现在，朝同一个方向前进并不意味着你就会成功，但这给了你成功的机会，而那种困惑，系统只会靠运气来拯救你。

So that was when he shared that, that was very impactful for me.

所以当他分享这一点时，这对我影响很大。

I think it's a good one for life as well.

我认为这对生活也是一件好事。

And for me it comes down to two main parts.

对我来说，它可以归结为两个主要部分。

One is clarity of thought and clarity of execution, and they're both equally important.

一是思路清晰，执行清晰，两者同等重要。

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Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 Gamma 为您带来，这是一种由人工智能驱动的全新方式来展示您的想法。

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如果您讨厌设计幻灯片并且害怕盯着空白幻灯片的感觉，Gamma 可以为您提供帮助。

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只需上传您的 PRD，并在几秒钟内将其转变为精美的现成演示文稿。

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Gamma 适用于从 Google 文档、PDF 到 PowerPoint 的所有类型的格式。

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您甚至可以添加您最喜欢的 Lenny 时事通讯帖子的链接，并将其转变为您团队的演示文稿。

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Gamma 已成为世界上增长最快的 AI 网络产品之一，仅在去年就增加了 2000 万新用户，并致力于成为 PowerPoint 的现代替代品。

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无论您是否具备设计技能，Gamma 都可以为您节省数小时的时间来综合您的想法和塑造您的内容。

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访问 Gamma.app 并使用促销代码 Lenny 即可免费获得一个月的 Gamma Pro。

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这就是 G-A-M-M-A 点应用程序。

Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by WorkOS.

Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 WorkOS 为您带来。

If you're building a SaaS app, at some point your customers will start asking for enterprise features like SAML authentication and SCIM provisioning.

如果您正在构建 SaaS 应用程序，那么您的客户有时会开始要求提供 SAML 身份验证和 SCIM 配置等企业功能。

That's where WorkOS comes in, making it fast and painless to add enterprise features to your app.

这就是 WorkOS 的用武之地，它可以快速、轻松地将企业功能添加到您的应用程序中。

Their APIs are easy to understand so that you can ship quickly and get back to building other features.

他们的 API 易于理解，因此您可以快速交付并继续构建其他功能。

Today, hundreds of companies are already powered by WorkOS, including ones you probably know like Vercell, Webflow and Loom.

如今，数百家公司已经由 WorkOS 提供支持，其中包括您可能知道的 Vercell、Webflow 和 Loom 等公司。

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WorkOS 最近还收购了细粒度授权服务 Warrant。

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Warrant 的产品基于名为 Zanzibar 的突破性授权系统，该系统最初是为 Google 设计的，旨在为 Google Docs 和 YouTube 提供支持。

This enables fast authorization checks at enormous scale while maintaining a flexible model that can be adapted to even the most complex use cases.

这可以实现大规模的快速授权检查，同时保持灵活的模型，甚至可以适应最复杂的用例。

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如果您当前正在寻求构建基于角色的访问控制或其他企业功能（例如单点登录 SCIM 或用户管理），您应该考虑 WorkOS，它是 Auth0 的直接替代品，并且免费支持多达 100 万每月活跃用户。

Check it out at WorkOS.com to learn more, that's WorkOS.com.

请访问 WorkOS.com 了解更多信息，这是 WorkOS.com。

Tomer Cohen: On the clarity of thought.

托默·科恩：论思想的清晰度。

What I find people to be attached to, especially when you build an environment with a lot of alpha types is that they get attached to being right or wrong and that really creates a lot of lingering in the system, a lot of confusion and they're still stuck to their ideas.

我发现人们所依恋的东西，特别是当你构建一个有很多阿尔法类型的环境时，他们会执着于正确或错误，这确实在系统中造成了很多挥之不去的感觉，很多混乱，而且他们仍然坚持自己的想法。

And for me, I get attached to clarity and focus.

对我来说，我很注重清晰和专注。

I think that's much more important.

我认为这更重要。

That's why I think when I say I don't mind being wrong, it really comes from a humble place.

这就是为什么我认为当我说我不介意犯错时，这确实是出于谦卑。

I would rather go forward with everybody in the same direction than necessarily try to hedge all the time, which will give me no chance of success.

我宁愿和大家一起朝着同一个方向前进，也不愿总是试图对冲，因为那样我就没有成功的机会。

The way we start, we do this in our product gens right now, is we actually spend some significant time on what is the problem we're trying to solve for, but not high level, not like, hey, we want to launch this product, we want to launch a video product.

我们开始的方式，我们现在在我们的产品一代中这样做，是我们实际上花了一些大量的时间来解决我们想要解决的问题，但不是高层次的，不是像，嘿，我们想推出这个产品，我们想推出一个视频产品。

Tomer Cohen: It's exactly what type of video you're trying to launch for which audience, what is your unique criteria, what are you trying, what is very nuanced about what you're trying to solve for?

托默·科恩：这正是您想要为哪些观众推出什么类型的视频，您的独特标准是什么，您正在尝试什么，您想要解决的问题有哪些细微差别？

Ideally, once the time you see the problem, you know exactly the problem you're trying, you actually can imagine that mountain.

理想情况下，一旦你看到问题，你就确切地知道你正在尝试的问题，你实际上可以想象那座山。

It's not just a mountain, you can see exactly the road, you can see exactly the end of the base camp.

这不仅仅是一座山，你可以准确地看到路，你可以准确地看到大本营的尽头。

But then when you move to solution, I love solutions that are based on first principles.

但当你转向解决方案时，我喜欢基于第一原则的解决方案。

That they have, there's a principle thinking about it, there's opinions about it.

他们有，有一个原则在思考它，有对此的看法。

If you talk to folks who work with me, they'll tell you, I push a lot for what is actually your opinion, what is your potentially controversial opinion and the best principles have teeth.

如果你和和我一起工作的人交谈，他们会告诉你，我极力推动你的实际观点，你潜在的有争议的观点是什么，以及最好的原则是有效的。

Tomer Cohen: So saying that we should build a simple product for me is useless.

Tomer Cohen：所以说我们应该为我构建一个简单的产品是没有用的。

Who doesn't want to build a simple product?

谁不想构建一个简单的产品？

But saying that I'm willing to sacrifice or trade off this, that's where I get excited.

但说我愿意牺牲或权衡这一点，这就是我感到兴奋的地方。

I'm like, okay, that's a very strong opinion.

我想，好吧，这是一个非常强烈的意见。

Let's go into that.

让我们来看看吧。

Why were you willing to trade off those type of vectors to make it happen?

为什么你愿意牺牲这些类型的载体来实现这一目标？

And one thing that I saw also in clarity of thought was this, is I came to the US in 2008, I came from Israel.

我清晰地看到一件事是，我于 2008 年来到美国，我来自以色列。

Our hobby in Israel is to argue.

我们在以色列的爱好是争论。

So we argue a lot, it's our love language in many ways.

所以我们经常争论，这在很多方面都是我们的爱情语言。

And I come to the US and I notice people say a lot like I don't exactly understand or I'm not exactly clear on this, and it took me a long time to realize they're actually disagreeing.

我来到美国，注意到人们说了很多类似我不太明白或者我对此不太清楚的言论，我花了很长时间才意识到他们实际上不同意。

Tomer Cohen: They're just masking it with a layer of misunderstanding and a good mentor of mine said, "Hey, just push back.

托默·科恩：他们只是用一层误解来掩盖它，我的一位好导师说：“嘿，反击吧。

Are you disagreeing or misunderstanding?

你有不同意见或者误解吗？

If you're misunderstanding, let's spend the night.

如果你误会了，那我们就过夜吧。

Let's get to a point where you can articulate my point of view in your words and I can do the same, but if we're disagreeing, let's stop.

让我们达到这样的程度：你可以用语言表达我的观点，我也可以这样做，但如果我们不同意，我们就停止吧。

Why are we spending?

我们为什么要花钱？

Why wasting time just arguing it through?" So those became really powerful.

何必浪费时间去争论呢？”所以这些变得非常强大。

That's on the clarity of thought, clarity of execution is even more important because many organizations actually reach a decision, they don't act on it, which it's one of those shocking things.

这取决于思想的清晰度，执行的清晰度甚至更重要，因为许多组织实际上做出了决定，但他们没有采取行动，这是令人震惊的事情之一。

They decide this is a top priority, but it doesn't make its way into the organization.

他们认为这是首要任务，但它并没有进入组织。

And I'll give you an example.

我给你举个例子。

Somebody will say, "Hey, my top priority for my business is this initiative." And then I'll say, "But most of your engineers are working on this migration." And they'll say, "Yeah, we have to finish that." I'm like, "So why don't you say the migration is my number one priority?" It's like, "Yeah."

有人会说：“嘿，我的业务的首要任务就是这项举措。”然后我会说，“但是你们的大多数工程师都在致力于这次迁移。”他们会说：“是的，我们必须完成它。”我想，“那你为什么不说迁移是我的首要任务呢？”就像是，“是的。”

Tomer Cohen: It's like, but that's exactly what you're doing.

托默·科恩：就像，但这正是你正在做的事情。

You have to make sure that what you're sharing as a priority is actually manifested in your resourcing.

您必须确保您优先共享的内容实际上体现在您的资源中。

Then I'm like, "Hey, this is your top talent.

然后我说，“嘿，这是你的顶尖才能。

Why is your top talent working on some moonshots that are not in your number one priority?" And they're like, "Yeah." This is where you start finding that really it doesn't really translate into execution as well and you can solve so much by just making that sure that focus is there.

为什么你的顶尖人才要从事一些不属于你的首要任务的登月计划？”他们就像，“是的。”这就是你开始发现它实际上并没有真正转化为执行的地方，你只需确保焦点在那里就可以解决很多问题。

Lenny Rachitsky: So the big lesson here is to push for clarity and push out anything that is unclear, confusion either in thought and also in execution.

Lenny Rachitsky：所以这里最大的教训是推动清晰度并排除任何不清楚的东西，无论是在思想上还是在执行上。

One of the folks that I talked to that worked with you about this phrase, Josh Redfern, he said that this phrase became really liberating for him, which is really interesting to hear because it forces you to make a call and to be aligned and make sure everyone is on the same page.

我采访过的一位与你一起讨论过这句话的人乔什·雷德芬 (Josh Redfern)，他说这句话对他来说真的是一种解放，这听起来很有趣，因为它迫使你做出决定并保持一致，并确保每个人都在同一页面上。

I guess thoughts on just why this concept is so liberating.

我想思考为什么这个概念如此解放。

Tomer Cohen: It goes back to little alpha types or type A folks who are just so attached to not getting it wrong.

托默·科恩（Tomer Cohen）：这可以追溯到小阿尔法类型或 A 型人，他们非常执着于不犯错误。

When you need to move forward and it's not about being right or wrong, it's really about not being confused and making sure everybody's pulling in the same direction.

当你需要前进时，问题不在于对错，而在于不要感到困惑，并确保每个人都朝着同一个方向前进。

That is actually really liberating.

这实际上是真正的解放。

And when you know that the whole idea is to have a Socratic conversation about what you're trying to do, then coming to the table with some kind of half-baked ideas or actually not an opinion, I think actually brings into a conversation of feedback.

当你知道整个想法是就你想要做的事情进行苏格拉底式对话，然后带着某种不成熟的想法或实际上不是意见来到桌面上时，我认为实际上会带来反馈对话。

Tomer Cohen: But you have to manifest it through, if you just play this through but then you potentially playing the right or wrong game, that's really poor.

托默·科恩：但你必须把它体现出来，如果你只是玩这个游戏，但你可能会玩对或错的游戏，那真的很糟糕。

I also think it's the best way to learn.

我也认为这是最好的学习方式。

If you don't know exactly what you're doing, how can you learn back from why you made that decision?

如果你不确切知道自己在做什么，你怎么能从做出这个决定的原因中吸取教训呢？

So if you had a clear understanding, ultimately it's a growing organization.

因此，如果你有一个清晰的认识，最终它会是一个不断成长的组织。

This is not a one-off project.

这不是一个一次性项目。

We're going to build many projects in the future.

未来我们要建设很多项目。

So if you're not sure about what we're trying to accomplish, how can you know what you learned from it?

因此，如果您不确定我们要实现的目标，您怎么知道您从中学到了什么？

Lenny Rachitsky: I love that.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢这个。

So the idea here is make it very okay to be wrong, but make it not okay to be confused and not clear about here's what we're doing, here's why we're doing it.

所以这里的想法是让犯错是可以的，但不要感到困惑和不清楚我们正在做什么，这就是我们这样做的原因。

Everyone's aligned exactly on the same idea.

每个人都在同一个想法上完全一致。

Tomer Cohen: How can I have a product conversation if I'm not sure what you stand for?

Tomer Cohen：如果我不确定您的立场，我如何进行产品对话？

It's really hard to have a Socratic conversation, really hard to have.

进行苏格拉底式对话真的很难，真的很难。

If you ask folks how many time you left a meeting in corporate, it could be a startup or larger companies and you are not sure exactly what was the problem discussed or what are next steps.

如果你问别人你有多少次离开公司的会议，这可能是一家初创公司或更大的公司，你不确定到底讨论了什么问题或下一步是什么。

More often than not, they'll raise their hand.

通常，他们会举手。

That for me is a waste of building time.

这对我来说是浪费构建时间。

So actually that agitates me in another great way, but when I come in and I'm proven wrong or there's a strong challenge or argument, again that's a little bit my love language, I actually enjoy those.

所以实际上这以另一种很好的方式激怒了我，但是当我进来并被证明是错误的或者存在强烈的挑战或争论时，这又是我的爱语言，我实际上很喜欢这些。

I think we leave the conversation much better.

我认为我们可以更好地结束对话。

Lenny Rachitsky: You said there's some other Tomerisms, what are some others just that you can share?

Lenny Rachitsky：您说还有其他一些 Tomerism，您可以分享哪些其他概念？

Tomer Cohen: This is, again, this is classic to building large organizations, but I actually believe in, especially when it comes to products, to really set ambitious goals but then try to over-deliver on them, really set what are you trying to, there's almost like the opposite where people are underplaying it and over delivering, I don't understand what you're trying to do.

托默·科恩：这又是建立大型组织的经典，但我实际上相信，特别是在产品方面，要真正设定雄心勃勃的目标，然后尝试超额交付这些目标，真正设定你想要做什么，几乎相反，人们低估了它并过度交付，我不明白你想做什么。

For me it's like we are here to make an impact.

对我来说，我们来这里就是为了产生影响。

We're here to really set our goals to something really massive.

我们来这里是为了真正设定我们的目标，实现一些非常宏大的目标。

And when I'm trying to visualize this, I see a mountain, you see the peak and the peak exactly how it looks like, you see base camp, you know how to start and maybe the middle of the mountain is kind of blurry, but you'll figure this out.

当我试图想象这一点时，我看到一座山，你看到山峰和山峰的样子，你看到大本营，你知道如何开始，也许山的中间有点模糊，但你会弄清楚这一点。

But at least you know the peak you're trying to share, share the peak, share where you're headed to and I think it's just a much more exciting way to build product.

但至少你知道你想要分享的峰值，分享峰值，分享你要去的地方，我认为这是一种更令人兴奋的构建产品的方式。

It's a much more inspirational way for folks to be part of the product process kind of thing.

对于人们参与产品流程之类的事情来说，这是一种更鼓舞人心的方式。

Lenny Rachitsky: I was just chatting with Vlad who worked at Airbnb for many years.

Lenny Rachitsky：我刚刚和在 Airbnb 工作多年的 Vlad 聊天。

He was actually my former manager at Airbnb and he reported to Brian for a long time and we talked about this trait that Brian also is really good at, is just setting crazy high goals.

他实际上是我在 Airbnb 的前经理，他向 Brian 汇报了很长一段时间，我们讨论了 Brian 也非常擅长的一个特点，就是设定疯狂的高目标。

10 X the goal that you thought you had and what would it take and it worked really well for Airbnb.

10 倍于您自以为的目标以及需要做什么，这对 Airbnb 来说效果非常好。

So I love that you're doubling down on the same idea.

所以我喜欢你在同一个想法上加倍努力。

Is there an example that comes to mind of one that you, some ambitious goal you set internally at LinkedIn that people are like, "No way," and then it ended up being effective?

您是否想到过这样一个例子：您在 LinkedIn 内部设定了一些雄心勃勃的目标，人们会说“不可能”，但最终却取得了成效？

Tomer Cohen: Actually there's a lot, when I think about our LinkedIn feed and thinking about when you started off, it was hard to imagine what that product could be because it was more of a promotional in nature product and I was like, no, is going to be a place where millions of people and not just tens of millions will come daily.

托默·科恩：实际上有很多，当我想到我们的 LinkedIn feed 并想到你开始的时候，很难想象这个产品会是什么，因为它更多的是一种促销性质的产品，我想，不，这将是一个每天有数百万人而不只是数千万人来到的地方。

And that's insane.

这太疯狂了。

That makes no sense based on the numbers today, but I don't start building from the numbers today.

从今天的数字来看，这是没有意义的，但我不会从今天的数字开始构建。

I start from I start backwards.

我从我开始向后开始。

I'm like, what this could be, what is the potential here?

我想，这可能是什么，这里有什么潜力？

So how many professionals exist in their role?

那么，有多少专业人士担任他们的角色呢？

How many of them would love to find a place to share and engage with content?

他们中有多少人愿意找到一个分享和参与内容的地方？

And this is my starting point.

这就是我的出发点。

I start from there.

我从那里开始。

So I don't start from the existence to set my ambition.

所以我并不是从存在开始就设定我的野心。

I start from what this could be like based on really inspiration and excitement.

我从这可能是什么样子开始，基于真正的灵感和兴奋。

Tomer Cohen: Again, it's not detached from reality completely, but it's also not hooked to it.

托默·科恩：再说一次，它并没有完全脱离现实，但也没有与现实挂钩。

But then Basecamp could be a good start.

但 Basecamp 可能是一个好的开始。

You're not asking you to make it the next day, but if you don't have that ambition, there's no way you're going to hit that.

你并不是要求你第二天就能做到，但如果你没有这个野心，你就不可能实现它。

There's just no way.

就是没有办法。

And there's so many products across LinkedIn.

LinkedIn 上有很多产品。

LinkedIn is a 20 plus year old company that many folks did not give it a chance in almost every phase of it.

LinkedIn 是一家拥有 20 多年历史的公司，但几乎在每个阶段，很多人都没有给它机会。

And I think if anything, it's one of those that just keeps getting better and better every year.

我认为，如果有的话，那就是每年都变得越来越好。

And part of it is you keep the landmark on.

其中一部分是你要保持地标的存在。

This really has the potential to do so much for so many people.

这确实有潜力为很多人做很多事情。

It's really an economic platform.

这确实是一个经济平台。

So if you play from that, one billion members, that's actually pretty small where we can actually go,

因此，如果你以此为基础，十亿会员，我们实际上可以去的地方实际上很小，

Lenny Rachitsky: I'm so happy you went to this example.

Lenny Rachitsky：我很高兴你看到了这个例子。

This is exactly where I wanted to take the conversation.

这正是我想要进行对话的地方。

I was very much in the camp you described of LinkedIn, how could LinkedIn possibly become a place that I want to go and browse a feed and post content?

我非常同意你所描述的 LinkedIn 阵营，LinkedIn 怎么可能成为我想去浏览提要和发布内容的地方呢？

As you probably know, for the longest time it was felt like this cringey place as you said, where everyone comes and promotes themselves, "Hey, I got a promotion or here's my company's new launch." And I think it's so underappreciated the turnaround that has happened within LinkedIn.

正如您可能知道的，在很长一段时间里，就像您所说的那样，这里感觉像一个令人尴尬的地方，每个人都来推销自己，“嘿，我升职了，或者这是我公司的新产品发布。”我认为 LinkedIn 内部发生的转变被低估了。

I use it, I'm a multi-day, multi-Dow user.

我使用它，我是一个多天、多道琼斯指数的用户。

I check it at least 10 times a day.

我每天至少检查10次。

Most of my traffic to my newsletter comes from LinkedIn, not Twitter where people think, it's absurdly underappreciated and it's I think underappreciated what it took to make this happen.

我的时事通讯的大部分流量来自 LinkedIn，而不是 Twitter，人们认为 Twitter 被低估了，而且我认为人们低估了实现这一目标所需的一切。

Lenny Rachitsky: And when I saw you guys starting to try to make it a place people post content, I was like, no way, this is not going to work.

Lenny Rachitsky：当我看到你们开始尝试让它成为人们发布内容的地方时，我就想，不可能，这行不通。

Why would people want to share stuff on LinkedIn?

人们为什么想在 LinkedIn 上分享内容？

And it's working, it's amazing.

它正在发挥作用，这真是太神奇了。

So I want to spend some time here and just try to go inside the strategy that you guys put together to here's how we're going to make this happen.

所以我想在这里花一些时间，尝试深入了解你们制定的策略，以实现这一目标。

Come, we've shared, you have this peak of here's what we could become.

来吧，我们已经分享了，你已经达到了我们可以达到的巅峰。

How did you actually turn this around?

你实际上是如何扭转局面的？

What was the strategy behind it?

其背后的策略是什么？

Tomer Cohen: Yeah, by the way, I'm glad you're finding great audience and traffic on LinkedIn.

Tomer Cohen：是的，顺便说一句，我很高兴您在 LinkedIn 上找到了大量的受众和流量。

I think your content, actually, your content is exactly what we're trying to build for, it's expertise, it's advice, it's people you can learn from and it's also the views that really matter, not just the volume that matters.

我认为你的内容，实际上，你的内容正是我们想要构建的，它是专业知识，它是建议，它是你可以学习的人，它也是真正重要的观点，而不仅仅是重要的数量。

I think if we take a step back, there's so much conversation about zero to one products or scaling products, but you don't have much conversations about minus one to one products, like turnaround products.

我认为，如果我们退一步，就会发现有很多关于零到一产品或扩展产品的讨论，但是关于负一对一产品（例如周转产品）的讨论却很少。

And I think there's obviously the perception of the market you have to deal with, but people I think in minus to one products, at least from my experience and we had a few at LinkedIn, pages is another one, helping businesses build their presence on LinkedIn.

我认为显然你必须面对市场的看法，但我认为至少从我的经验来看，人们对一种产品的看法是不利的，我们在 LinkedIn 上有一些产品，页面是另一种产品，帮助企业在 LinkedIn 上建立自己的形象。

What you find is it's actually, most of the time it's internally harder to do because there's so much entrenched flows and processes and metrics that people are using on that specific area.

你会发现，实际上，大多数时候，内部很难做到这一点，因为人们在该特定领域使用了太多根深蒂固的流程、流程和指标。

Tomer Cohen: So you almost have to change the inner workings of the system to make it work.

托默·科恩：所以你几乎必须改变系统的内部运作方式才能使其正常工作。

Going back to the analogy of the mountain, if you start from the premise that I deeply believe in is that LinkedIn ultimately is a platform for economic opportunity that sits on top of a very strong social graph.

回到山的类比，如果你从我坚信的前提开始，LinkedIn 最终是一个经济机会的平台，位于一个非常强大的社交图谱之上。

Then really almost every aspect of economic transaction is possible and knowledge transaction is one of the most powerful economic transactions you can have.

那么经济交易的几乎每个方面都是可能的，而知识交易是你可以拥有的最强大的经济交易之一。

It's the biggest accelerant for an experience and we were always very strong at helping people get a job.

这是体验的最大促进剂，我们总是非常擅长帮助人们找到工作。

We have seven hires per minute, but as we were building more and more knowledge and part of it was we bought LinkedIn, we bought Lynda to make it LinkedIn Learning a while back.

我们每分钟招聘 7 名员工，但随着我们积累了越来越多的知识，其中一部分是我们购买了 LinkedIn，不久前我们购买了 Lynda，使其成为 LinkedIn Learning。

Today we had 140 hours of learning every minute on LinkedIn happening across the feed and LinkedIn Learning, it's pretty powerful.

今天，我们在 LinkedIn 上每分钟通过 feed 和 LinkedIn Learning 进行了 140 个小时的学习，这非常强大。

Tomer Cohen: And the transformation to the LinkedIn feed was exactly like you said.

Tomer Cohen：LinkedIn feed 的转变正如你所说的那样。

We actually were the first company to have a social feed, but I think we started wrong.

我们实际上是第一家拥有社交信息流的公司，但我认为我们一开始就错了。

So we started with basically activity feed.

所以我们从基本的活动源开始。

So it was like who changed what, who changed the job, who connected to who.

所以这就像是谁改变了什么、谁改变了工作、谁与谁有联系。

It was more of like a tracking your network feed and it became more promotional in nature.

它更像是跟踪您的网络源，并且本质上变得更具促销性。

So in a way just letting that be just naturally just moved into more of a promotional type of feed.

因此，在某种程度上，只是让它自然地转移到更多的促销类型的提要中。

And what we've done is we've shifted dramatically into building, actually this was one of the things I was excited about.

我们所做的是我们已经戏剧性地转向建设，实际上这是我感到兴奋的事情之一。

So after I was leading the mobile team, there was no feed team, there was no unified feed team, there was no feed PM to an extent, I asked to do this role, nobody cared about it.

所以在我领导移动团队之后，没有 feed 团队，没有统一的 feed 团队，在某种程度上没有 feed PM，我要求做这个角色，没有人关心它。

I really believed in it.

我真的相信它。

Tomer Cohen: I have strong conviction about what I could do there.

托默·科恩：我坚信自己能在那里做些什么。

And I asked to do this role and we assembled the team around it and one of the main things we've done was to really set the new purpose for it, which was this is not a springboard for other products, this is not a traffic jumpstart for, it's not an app self feed, it's really about people that matter talking about things that I care about professionally.

我要求担任这个角色，我们围绕它组建了团队，我们所做的主要事情之一就是真正为其设定新的目标，这不是其他产品的跳板，这不是流量的启动，这不是应用程序的自我反馈，这实际上是关于重要的人谈论我专业关心的事情。

It's about knowledge exchange.

这是关于知识交流。

It's about how can I get the right views to the right experts in a way that actually helps them build a reputation and build their business.

这是关于我如何才能以真正帮助他们建立声誉和发展业务的方式向正确的专家提供正确的观点。

And then we started from there backwards.

然后我们从那里开始倒退。

So it was basically setting that ground for that mountain peak that was nowhere to be imagined at the beginning and making our way backwards.

所以它基本上是为那个一开始无法想象的山峰奠定了基础，并让我们倒退。

Tomer Cohen: The first thing we did was really making AI first.

Tomer Cohen：我们做的第一件事就是真正把人工智能放在第一位。

So the AI team back then was completely centralized.

所以当时的AI团队是完全中心化的。

It was not part of any product team and we brought it together with one unified AI first team.

它不属于任何产品团队，我们将其与一个统一的人工智能第一团队合并在一起。

And the belief I had was ultimately the engine of the car was AI and that was almost like de-prioritized or delegated to a team that was not unified in objectives.

我的信念是，最终汽车的引擎是人工智能，这几乎就像是取消优先级或委托给一个目标不统一的团队。

So bring that in.

所以把它带进来。

And then I spent most of my time on objectives and algorithm features and data training, which led me into my passion about training product people to be a first product people.

然后我把大部分时间花在目标、算法特性和数据培训上，这让我对培训产品人员成为第一名产品人员产生了热情。

And that was a big transformation there, really shifting and we had incredible AI team, but they were completely, actually, it was a confused operation.

那是一个巨大的转变，真正的转变，我们拥有令人难以置信的人工智能团队，但他们完全，实际上，这是一个混乱的操作。

They were building something for a whole different purpose and we were trying to aim to that mountain peak and they were putting in a different direction.

他们正在为完全不同的目的建造一些东西，而我们试图瞄准那座山峰，而他们却朝着不同的方向前进。

No bad intent, that's what they were told to do.

没有恶意，这就是他们被告知要做的。

Tomer Cohen: So bringing it together into this SWAT team was the first thing that actually was extremely powerful, but then became the hard work.

托默·科恩：因此，将其整合到特警队中实际上是非常强大的第一件事，但随后就变成了艰苦的工作。

You have a product that works in a certain way and you almost want to change its DNA altogether.

你有一个以某种方式工作的产品，你几乎想完全改变它的 DNA。

And it was very hard because whenever we were trying to run experiments that were mass in scale, I told you everybody was relying on the feed for their traffic.

这非常困难，因为每当我们尝试进行大规模实验时，我告诉过你每个人都依赖流量来获取流量。

It just scared the whole system because numbers were shifting up and down and teams were freaking out about meeting their goals.

它只是吓坏了整个系统，因为数字在上下变化，团队对实现他们的目标感到恐惧。

And then I realized that was just spending my time in escalations instead of actually building a great product.

然后我意识到这只是把时间花在升级上，而不是真正构建一个伟大的产品。

So what I did was I carved out two million members and I said, "Those are my members.

所以我所做的就是培养了 200 万会员，我说：“这些是我的会员。

I'm going to focus on building that mountain peak.

我将专注于建造那座山峰。

I'm going to build for them."

我要为他们建造。”

Tomer Cohen: Full liberty and doing whatever, it doesn't hurt numbers, giving the scale and really focus on building a great experience for them.

托默·科恩（Tomer Cohen）：充分的自由和做任何事情，这不会伤害数字，给予规模并真正专注于为他们打造良好的体验。

And it wasn't overnight and it wasn't over a week, but over the course of months we've seen dramatic behavior change for those members, almost like secluded, like a country of people that were seeing a different experience of LinkedIn.

这不是一夜之间，也不是一周多的时间，但在几个月的时间里，我们看到这些会员的行为发生了巨大的变化，几乎就像与世隔绝一样，就像一个国家的人们看到了不同的 LinkedIn 体验。

And once we saw that you actually had strong evidence that wow, if I bring this in, we don't need to spend time talking about how this pie gets slotted between different teams.

一旦我们看到你实际上有强有力的证据表明哇，如果我把这个引入进来，我们就不需要花时间讨论这个馅饼如何在不同的团队之间分配。

We can actually grow the pie.

我们实际上可以把蛋糕做大。

The experience just manifests itself in a whole different way and that was a big change internally.

这种体验只是以一种完全不同的方式表现出来，这是内部的一个巨大变化。

It wasn't overnight, but it was really powerful in getting everybody around to see, wow, we have this cohort that is doing extremely well, which was a randomized cohort and then how we can bring it out.

这不是一朝一夕的事，但它真的很强大，让周围的每个人都看到，哇，我们这个队列做得非常好，这是一个随机队列，然后我们如何才能把它拿出来。

Tomer Cohen: I've also done some crazy things.

托默·科恩：我也做过一些疯狂的事情。

We've done some negative tests to prove some stuff out, test for the sake of learning.

我们做了一些负面测试来证明一些东西，测试是为了学习。

When you run something that you can show that if it's just a promotional feed and you played it out organically over time, engage with the tier rates.

当你运行一些东西时，你可以表明，如果它只是一个促销源，并且随着时间的推移，你可以有机地发挥它，那么就可以参与分级费率。

We ran some really important ad tests as well, but we're really shown separate, almost like we carved out the different product and we showed that this could work and then we brought it out to the main experience for everybody else.

我们也进行了一些非常重要的广告测试，但我们确实是分开展示的，几乎就像我们开发了不同的产品，我们证明这是可行的，然后我们将其带到其他人的主要体验中。

And then that was, I would say the inner workings of minus one to one.

然后，我想说负一对一的内部运作方式。

Then the scanning part really became when we started to focus on professional opportunities.

当我们开始关注职业机会时，扫描部分才真正成为现实。

So when people actually share, how do they get the right views into the experience?

那么，当人们真正分享时，他们如何在体验中获得正确的观点呢？

Tomer Cohen: We don't compete for volume, we're not in the same category of Meta in terms of the skill there, but we will compete all day long for the right people seeing your content.

Tomer Cohen：我们不争夺数量，就技能而言，我们不属于 Meta 的同一类别，但我们会整天竞争，让合适的人看到您的内容。

In fact, I think in many ways that's the most powerful part of LinkedIn.

事实上，我认为从很多方面来说这是 LinkedIn 最强大的部分。

How do we make sure that it's professionally productive and safe conversations?

我们如何确保这是专业高效且安全的对话？

How do we trade off bad engagement all day long?

我们如何权衡一整天的不良参与度？

In fact, when we started shifting the AI objective from click through into more downstream conversations, spammers actually took notice as well.

事实上，当我们开始将人工智能目标从点击转移到更多下游对话时，垃圾邮件发送者实际上也注意到了。

So they were jumping over the LinkedIn bandwagon, so we had to spend a lot of time removing bad activity from LinkedIn, but that's been the evolution of this process.

所以他们跳过了 LinkedIn 的潮流，所以我们不得不花很多时间从 LinkedIn 中删除不良活动，但这就是这个过程的演变。

Lenny Rachitsky: That is amazing.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

There's so much I want to dig into here.

这里有太多我想深入挖掘的东西。

Okay, so this two million user carve out that you did, basically everyone was just like, what the hell are you doing to our metrics and goals?

好吧，所以这 200 万用户都像你一样，基本上每个人都在想，你到底对我们的指标和目标做了什么？

You're causing all this trouble for the business.

你给公司带来了所有这些麻烦。

Why is this team hurting our metrics?

为什么这个团队会损害我们的指标？

So that was basically a group that those two million users are the only ones that saw this new updated feed and were they removed from everyone else's metrics so they weren't fluctuated as much or was it just?

所以这基本上是一个群体，这 200 万用户是唯一看到这个新更新的提要的用户，他们是否从其他人的指标中删除了，这样他们就没有那么大的波动，或者只是这样？

Tomer Cohen: They could be kept in the overall because it wasn't as important.

托默·科恩：它们可以保留在整体中，因为它并不那么重要。

Tomer Cohen: But for us, they were like the world we were basically able to prove with them.

托默·科恩：但对我们来说，它们就像我们基本上能够用它们来证明的世界。

Lenny Rachitsky: Got it.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：明白了。

Okay.

好的。

That's so smart.

太聪明了。

Okay, so basically you just decided we're only going to move your metrics a little bit, worst case if we stick to it.

好吧，基本上你刚刚决定我们只会稍微改变你的指标，如果我们坚持下去，最坏的情况是。

Tomer Cohen: I felt that I tried for a few months to play on the overall experience with everybody, but it was really hard, almost like impossible because you have an organization that is so tied into how things work that I was just hitting walls after walls after escalations and it was just unproductive.

托默·科恩：我觉得我花了几个月的时间尝试与每个人一起体验整体体验，但这真的很难，几乎是不可能的，因为你的组织与事情的运作方式紧密相关，以至于我在升级后不断碰壁，而且毫无成效。

Lenny Rachitsky: And this is before you were a chief product officer where you could have just said, "We will take this bet.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是在你担任首席产品官之前，你可以说：“我们会接受这个赌注。

We know this might hurt metrics short-term"?

我们知道这可能会短期损害指标”？

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, got it.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的，明白了。

That makes sense.

这是有道理的。

Okay, the other piece, so just like lessons I'm taking away from trying something like this that's an ambitious bet within a company, is put a PM and a team on it with a goal that feels like a core part of the success of just like somebody's ass is on the line to doing this thing.

好吧，另一件事，就像我从尝试这样的事情中吸取的教训一样，这是公司内部雄心勃勃的赌注，就是让一个项目经理和一个团队来完成这个目标，这个目标感觉像是成功的核心部分，就像有人冒着风险去做这件事一样。

Lenny Rachitsky: Always, with focus on this one problem.

Lenny Rachitsky：始终关注这一问题。

And then there's the way you described there's this goal for this feed, but how did you actually try to turn that into a goal or metric or a KPI, what was that in the end, was there something there?

然后就是你所描述的这个提要的目标，但是你实际上是如何尝试将其转化为目标或指标或 KPI 的，最终是什么？那里有什么东西吗？

Tomer Cohen: Yeah, this is an interesting one, one thing we've done actually because the feed is the first thing you land on.

Tomer Cohen：是的，这是一件有趣的事情，我们实际上已经做了一件事，因为提要是您登陆的第一个东西。

I can't just count how many folks engage with the feed because then I'm counting bypassers kind of thing and bystanders that are actually coming into the experience.

我不能只计算有多少人参与了该提要，因为这样我就可以计算旁路者和真正参与体验的旁观者。

So we actually started to look at the more, we go a lot into active, engaged and high value engagement.

所以我们实际上开始关注更多，我们投入了大量精力来积极、投入和高价值的参与。

So we go downstream, we kind of put the onus on looking at more downstream engagement there and we build that as the feed engagement.

因此，我们走向下游，我们将责任放在寻找更多下游参与上，并将其构建为提要参与。

So really trying to show that we're not just counting some overall whatever it is or sessions at the top level.

因此，我们确实试图表明，我们不仅仅计算一些总体情况或高层会议。

That's not really helpful because any shifts can help there, but really setting targets for that.

这并没有多大帮助，因为任何转变都可以有所帮助，但真正要为此设定目标。

There's obviously it's a marketplace, so there's the creation side, there's the consumption side's, there's making sure that's healthy and engaging.

显然，这是一个市场，因此有创造方面，有消费方面，并确保其健康且有吸引力。

Tomer Cohen: There was so much we went into that, but I think the best thing was it's almost like you carve out.

托默·科恩：我们对此做了很多探讨，但我认为最好的事情是它几乎就像你精心设计的一样。

I think when you do minus one to one, it's really hard unless the CEO says I don't care about how the company performs for the next two years, we're going to go for it.

我认为，当你做负一对一的时候，这真的很难，除非首席执行官说我不关心公司未来两年的表现，我们会坚持下去。

If you want to keep the site keep growing and the experience keep growing, carving out and almost like sending very specific unique metrics but then could easily be extended out once you show it was in retrospect the right way to do it.

如果您想让网站不断发展，体验不断增长，那么就可以制定并发送非常具体的独特指标，但一旦您回想起来这是正确的方法，就可以轻松扩展。

Lenny Rachitsky: And then to give people a glimpse into the way your brain works to identify this is a big opportunity.

Lenny Rachitsky：然后让人们了解大脑的工作方式来识别这一点，这是一个很大的机会。

So you talk about just like I see there's a lever that we're not investing enough in and I see this big opportunity to grow of LinkedIn.

所以你谈到的就像我看到我们在一个杠杆上投资不够，而且我看到 LinkedIn 发展的巨大机会。

How did you decide I need to go and bet on this thing and lead this team and I think feed is a huge opportunity?

你是如何决定我需要去押注这件事并领导这个团队并且我认为饲料是一个巨大的机会？

Tomer Cohen: I start from beliefs a lot.

托默·科恩：我经常从信念开始。

So I start from what do I believe this could be or where I actually came to LinkedIn this way.

因此，我从我认为这可能是什么或者我实际上是通过这种方式来到 LinkedIn 的地方开始的。

In fact my biggest change in my career was when I moved here and I shifted to more like what do I care about?

事实上，我职业生涯中最大的变化是当我搬到这里时，我开始变得更像我关心的是什么？

What am I excited about?

我在兴奋什么？

What do I have conviction on?

我有什么信念？

I think it's really hard to be a strong product leader without having strong conviction about something.

我认为如果没有对某件事有坚定的信念，就很难成为一名强大的产品领导者。

So I start there and in fact coming to LinkedIn as an example, when I came into lead mobile, LinkedIn was a desktop first company, then mobile team was an offshoot of entrepreneurs.

所以我从这里开始，事实上以 LinkedIn 为例，当我进入移动领域时，LinkedIn 是一家桌面优先的公司，然后移动团队是企业家的分支。

I came from a startup that I ran and it wasn't a big, it wasn't, it was like, okay, I want to do mobile, I guess fine.

我来自一家我经营的初创公司，它规模不大，不是，就像，好吧，我想做移动业务，我想没问题。

It's like noise at this point.

此时就像噪音一样。

Same with feed.

与饲料相同。

And same when I shifted into ads, I felt really strong about the ability to flip that into a great way for companies to grow.

同样，当我转向广告行业时，我对将其转变为公司发展的好方法的能力感到非常强烈。

Tomer Cohen: So for me it starts with a conviction of where things could go, what do I believe in?

托默·科恩：所以对我来说，首先要坚信事情会走向何方，我相信什么？

I believe LinkedIn can be an incredible superpower and daily use case for every professional in the world.

我相信 LinkedIn 可以成为世界上每一位专业人士的令人难以置信的超能力和日常用例。

I believe knowledge sharing and knowledge exchange is the most amazing way to grow your career and to grow your business.

我相信知识共享和知识交流是发展您的职业生涯和发展您的业务的最神奇的方式。

So that needs to be a strong pillar of the experience, what didn't exist before and what is better than the feed experience, the home to actually build it.

因此，这需要成为体验的强大支柱，以前不存在的东西，以及比饲料体验更好的东西，即实际构建它的家。

So I don't get attached to what did not work in the past.

所以我不会执着于过去不起作用的事情。

That's not, I don't know, maybe it's a mistake sometimes, but that doesn't stop me from thinking about the future.

那不是，我不知道，也许有时这是一个错误，但这并不能阻止我思考未来。

Lenny Rachitsky: How do you actually make time to think like this?

Lenny Rachitsky：你实际上是如何腾出时间来这样思考的？

A lot of people are listening.

很多人都在听。

They're just like, "Okay, I want to think about what could this become?" Is this just the way brain works?

他们就像，“好吧，我想考虑一下这会变成什么？”这就是大脑的工作方式吗？

You're always thinking what could this be?

你总是在想这会是什么？

Do you set time aside to think quarterly or yearly, what could this be if we really made this amazing?

您是否会每季度或每年留出时间思考一下，如果我们真的做到了这一点，这会是怎样的结果？

Tomer Cohen: It's a good question.

托默·科恩：这是个好问题。

I haven't thought about it.

我还没想过。

It's like a process I do.

这就像我做的一个过程。

I don't sit time aside for this, but I'm very reflective.

我不会为此花时间，但我非常善于反思。

I try to focus, love the conversations on the dream, what ultimately are we trying to achieve?

我努力集中注意力，喜欢关于梦想的对话，我们最终想要实现什么？

I think LinkedIn has a great process called vision to values that started from our former CEO, Jeff Winner, which is like if you said this is for company or for a product, which is if you're successful, what change would happen in the world?

我认为LinkedIn有一个很棒的流程，叫做愿景价值观，这个流程是从我们的前首席执行官Jeff Winner开始的，就像你说这是为了公司或为了产品，如果你成功了，世界会发生什么变化？

Which I love.

我喜欢哪个。

It's just a great phrase.

这只是一个很棒的短语。

It's just a great empowering phrase.

这只是一个伟大的赋权短语。

So I actually tend to spend a lot of my time there.

所以我实际上倾向于在那里度过很多时间。

I'm also very optimistic in nature.

我的性格也非常乐观。

Again, sometimes it's probably, I'm not best for any role perspective.

再说一遍，有时我可能不适合任何角色。

You want somebody a bit more pessimistic about the future, but I tend to lead with beliefs versus evidence.

你希望有人对未来更加悲观一些，但我倾向于用信念而不是证据来引导。

I try to prove my beliefs with evidence, but I don't lead with evidence.

我试图用证据来证明我的信念，但我不会用证据来引导。

Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

Okay.

好的。

And then maybe just one more tactical question about this shift that I wish I could spend hours on because it's so interesting, the success you had making the feed so engaging.

然后也许只是关于这一转变的另一个战术问题，我希望我能花几个小时来解决这个问题，因为它是如此有趣，你所取得的成功使提要如此引人入胜。

Is there anything tactically that would just like wow that would really made a big dent in people wanting to come here and post and share interesting content, like a feature or a part of the strategy that really made the feed social?

从战术上来说，是否有什么东西可以像哇一样真正对那些想要来这里发布和分享有趣内容的人产生很大的影响，比如真正使提要社交化的功能或策略的一部分？

Tomer Cohen: I think the lesson would be, for me that was the biggest learning going into AI first that gave me the why is AI so core and why I got to make it a priority all the way to my role today to make sure the rest of the organization thinks AI first.

Tomer Cohen：我认为，对我来说，这是进入人工智能领域最大的学习，它让我明白为什么人工智能如此核心，以及为什么我必须将其作为我今天的角色的优先事项，以确保组织的其他成员首先考虑人工智能。

The understanding is is that in a marketplace, if I'm able to satisfy your need on the other side, then it's magic.

我们的理解是，在市场上，如果我能够满足你另一方的需求，那就太神奇了。

So ultimately it came down to AI is the ultimate matchmaker.

所以最终人工智能是最终的媒人。

It's underutilized, it's misunderstood, it's run separate from the team.

它没有得到充分利用，它被误解，它与团队分开运行。

And in a marketplace it's all about value exchange.

在市场中，一切都与价值交换有关。

And if I'm able to do value exchange really well, then people will come back and they do and they engage and actually they come back even more and they spend more time.

如果我能够很好地进行价值交换，那么人们就会回来，他们会回来，他们会参与其中，实际上他们会回来更多，花更多的时间。

So for me it was that depth into AI first as the engine that moves the whole organization forward.

所以对我来说，首先是对人工智能的深入了解，作为推动整个组织向前发展的引擎。

Lenny Rachitsky: Got it.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：明白了。

So essentially making sure the content you are seeing is the most engaging you could see based on using AI to make the algorithm really smart?

那么，本质上是通过使用人工智能使算法真正智能来确保您所看到的内容是您能看到的最吸引人的内容吗？

Tomer Cohen: On both sides.

托默·科恩：双方都有。

If you are the creator, if you're the person sharing, remember this was a while back, I think it was about the former Olympics and person shared an article on LinkedIn about how they should not call it Olympics, they should call it the commercial Olympics because it's all about commercials and less Olympics.

如果你是创作者，如果你是分享者，请记住这是不久前的事，我认为这是关于前奥运会的，有人在LinkedIn上分享了一篇关于他们不应该称之为奥运会的文章，他们应该称之为商业奥运会，因为这都是关于商业而不是奥运会。

And then they sent me this amazing screenshot about how NBC execs who were covering the Olympics were rearing the post, this first to them was gold.

然后他们给我发了这张令人惊叹的截图，展示了报道奥运会的 NBC 高管如何发布这个帖子，这对他们来说是金牌。

It was like, "Oh my god, my content is influencing, people are seeing it, people that matter." So that was really key.

就像是，“天哪，我的内容具有影响力，人们正在看到它，重要的人。”所以这真的很关键。

Making sure that when you share something, you share your expertise.

确保当您分享某些内容时，您分享了您的专业知识。

The right people on the other side are relevant to your content and they see it.

另一边合适的人与您的内容相关并且他们会看到它。

That could make your day or your week or actually it could make your living in many ways.

这可以让你度过一天或一周，或者实际上它可以在很多方面改善你的生活。

And then on the receiving side, when I come in, it's the things I'm excited about seeing.

然后在接收方，当我进来时，我很高兴看到这些事情。

Tomer Cohen: It's the things that are relevant, the reason your content resonates so much with other people, I can actually take your podcasts and I can apply them at work.

托默·科恩：这是相关的事情，是你的内容与其他人产生如此大共鸣的原因，我实际上可以使用你的播客，并且可以在工作中应用它们。

What could be a better way to learn?

什么是更好的学习方式？

I'll give you another example, which was very, very recent.

我再举一个例子，这是最近发生的。

I met with a known professor in this field and he shared with me how over the last year and a half he started using LinkedIn because somebody told him, "You have a great content, why don't you just post it?" I was like, "I don't want to post on social media." I'm like, "Oh, LinkedIn is different, share on LinkedIn." And he was like, "I post daily.

我遇到了该领域的一位知名教授，他与我分享了他如何在过去一年半的时间里开始使用 LinkedIn，因为有人告诉他，“你有很棒的内容，为什么不直接发布呢？”我当时想，“我不想在社交媒体上发帖。”我说，“哦，LinkedIn 不一样，在 LinkedIn 上分享。”他说：“我每天都会发帖。

I have so much content over the years, I post daily."

这些年来我有很多内容，我每天都会发布。”

Tomer Cohen: And he was like, he basically told me this is unbelievable in terms of economic opportunity I'm getting.

托默·科恩：他基本上告诉我，就我获得的经济机会而言，这是令人难以置信的。

He's like, "I'm getting speaking engagements that are roughly half the salary I make in a year here at the university.

他说，“我得到的演讲邀请大约是我在大学一年工资的一半。

Just by people seeing this content and getting to the right people.

只要人们看到这些内容并找到合适的人即可。

I was invited to advise prime ministers on their investment strategy for the country and I've been teaching for 20 years, but this platform just completely elevated my ability to reach and influence people." That's the magic and that's the value exchange and that's the kind of matchmaking at scale.

我受邀为各国总理提供关于国家投资策略的建议，我已经教书 20 年了，但这个平台完全提高了我接触和影响人们的能力。”这就是魔力，这就是价值交换，这就是大规模的匹配。

Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

That's an awesome story.

这是一个很棒的故事。

This episode is brought to you by Merge, product leaders.

本集由产品负责人 Merge 为您带来。

Yes, like you, cringe when they hear the word integration, they're not fun for you to scope, build, launch or maintain, and integrations probably aren't what led you to product work in the first place.

是的，就像您一样，当他们听到集成这个词时，他们会感到畏缩，对您来说，确定范围、构建、启动或维护并不有趣，而且集成可能不是您从事产品工作的首要原因。

Lucky for you, the folks at Merge are obsessed with integrations.

幸运的是，Merge 的员工热衷于集成。

Their single API helps SaaS companies launch over 200 product integrations in weeks, not quarters.

他们的单一 API 可帮助 SaaS 公司在几周内（而不是几个季度）推出 200 多个产品集成。

Think of Merge like Plaid, but for everything B2B SaaS, organizations like Ramp, Dorada and Electric use Merge to access their customer's accounting data to reconcile bill payments, file storage data to create searchable databases in their product or HRIS data to auto-provision and deprovision access for their customer's employees.

可以将 Merge 想象为 Plaid，但对于所有 B2B SaaS，Ramp、Dorada 和 Electric 等组织都使用 Merge 来访问客户的会计数据以协调账单支付、文件存储数据以在其产品中创建可搜索数据库或 HRIS 数据以自动配置和取消配置客户员工的访问权限。

And yes, if you need AI ready data for your SaaS product, then Merge is the fastest way to get it.

是的，如果您的 SaaS 产品需要人工智能就绪数据，那么合并是获取它的最快方法。

So want to solve your organization's integration dilemma once and for all?

那么想一劳永逸地解决您组织的整合困境吗？

Book and attend a meeting at merge.dev/lenny and receive a $50 Amazon gift card.

在 merge.dev/lenny 上预订并参加会议即可获得价值 50 美元的亚马逊礼品卡。

That's merge.dev/lenny.

那是 merge.dev/lenny。

Lenny Rachitsky: I want to shift a little bit in talking about this AI first mindset that you've touched on a lot.

Lenny Rachitsky：我想稍微改变一下你经常提到的人工智能优先的思维方式。

So you talked about how at the beginning of this investment, you've already been focused on AI before it was as hot as it is today, and I've heard from many people that you're really big on getting people to shift to this mindset of being very AI first.

所以你谈到了在这项投资之初，在人工智能像今天这样热门之前，你就已经专注于人工智能了，我从很多人那里听说，你非常热衷于让人们转变为“人工智能第一”的心态。

Clearly it's worked really well at LinkedIn.

显然，这种做法在 LinkedIn 上效果非常好。

I'm curious just what that actually looks like.

我很好奇那实际上是什么样子。

I know you could be like, "Hey guys, we got to be AI first, AI, AI, AI." But it's different to actually make people really think differently.

我知道你可能会说，“嘿伙计们，我们必须首先是人工智能，人工智能，人工智能，人工智能。”但真正让人们真正以不同的方式思考是不同的。

How do you actually on the ground help people shift their perspective and think AI first?

您如何在实地帮助人们转变观点并首先思考人工智能？

Tomer Cohen: I can spend days on this.

托默·科恩：我可以花几天时间在这上面。

This is so important.

这非常重要。

It's actually so important for me, it's a key focus for me.

事实上，这对我来说非常重要，是我关注的重点。

Actually to your point, long before it became cool to talk about AI in the last two years, and in fact I think I've learned this on myself.

事实上，就你的观点而言，早在过去两年谈论人工智能变得很酷之前，事实上我认为我已经自己学会了这一点。

So when it comes to the feed, I took the role of the AI product leader, it didn't exist in the company.

所以当谈到提要时，我担任了人工智能产品负责人的角色，这在公司里是不存在的。

There was no person that was ever from a product perspective thinking about AI.

没有人从产品角度思考人工智能。

I think it start with the belief, like we talked about before, I think every technological revolution has dramatically changed the way we build.

我认为这始于信念，就像我们之前谈到的那样，我认为每一次技术革命都极大地改变了我们的构建方式。

And AI arguably is the biggest one in our lifetimes.

人工智能可以说是我们一生中最伟大的人工智能。

And when I say AI first, it's not about a tech, it's a mindset.

当我首先说人工智能时，它不是一种技术，而是一种心态。

It's a start with strategy.

这是战略的开始。

It is rare.

这是罕见的。

Maybe now you'll see it, but it was rare two years ago to see anybody in their strategy talk about the role of AI and how they build with AI.

也许现在你会看到它，但两年前很少看到有人在他们的战略中谈论人工智能的作用以及他们如何利用人工智能进行构建。

Tomer Cohen: Then it goes to the product and then the talent itself you hire, do they actually think this way?

托默·科恩：然后是产品，然后是你雇用的人才本身，他们真的这么认为吗？

The analogy I would give to people is imagine a river rafting boat and you have everybody on the sides holding the pedals and adding accuracy, adding speed, but there's the guide on the back and they're holding those two pedals.

我会给人们做一个类比，想象一艘河流漂流船，两边的每个人都握住踏板，增加准确性，增加速度，但后面有指南，他们握住这两个踏板。

Those two pedals navigate pretty much the boat and those pedals are AI and the guide better be you.

这两个踏板几乎可以在船上导航，这些踏板是人工智能的，导游最好是你。

And in most cases in companies the guide was somebody else, it wasn't the product leader.

在大多数情况下，在公司中，指导者是其他人，而不是产品负责人。

So then the question is, if AI actually is directing your product or success and it's the biggest factor and you as the product leader is not the one holding those two pedals, what are you doing?

那么问题是，如果人工智能实际上正在指导你的产品或成功，并且它是最大的因素，而你作为产品领导者并不是踩着这两个踏板的人，那么你在做什么？

And then I realized that it was a bit of a lack of education in that, there was actually most product users used to think of AI as this black box, magic spells that they don't know how it's working so they're delegating.

然后我意识到这有点缺乏教育，实际上大多数产品用户过去都认为人工智能是一个黑匣子，他们不知道它是如何工作的魔法咒语，所以他们正在授权。

Tomer Cohen: And obviously that's as far from the truth as possible, but there's so many ways to unpack it.

托默·科恩：显然这与事实相差甚远，但有很多方法可以解开它。

When it came to the feed where I push for example, more specifically for the teams, he doesn't stay as an AI first, there's the objective.

例如，当谈到我推动的提要时，更具体地说，对于团队来说，他首先不会停留在 AI 的位置，这是有目标的。

I would ask him, "What is the objective of the algorithm?" I would challenge you to ask folks more in the folks who are leading products specifically with algorithms inherited built into them, what is the objective of the algorithm and can you write it down for me on a board?

我会问他：“算法的目标是什么？”我想向你们提出更多的问题，询问那些领导产品的人们，特别是那些继承了内置算法的产品，该算法的目标是什么，你们能为我把它写在黑板上吗？

They should be able to do so, ultimately it's a mathematical formula and then it's like what features have you added to the algorithm?

他们应该能够这样做，最终它是一个数学公式，然后就像你在算法中添加了哪些功能？

And this is not user features, this is specifically what parameters to learn on and then what investment do you have in data collections and fine-tuning?

这不是用户特征，而是具体要学习哪些参数，然后您在数据收集和微调方面有哪些投资？

Tomer Cohen: Now everybody talks a big game about fine-tuning but again, two years ago, fine-tuning was something that the product folks thought the engineering team was supposed to do.

Tomer Cohen：现在每个人都在谈论关于微调的大游戏，但两年前，微调是产品人员认为工程团队应该做的事情。

No, it's the whole organization.

不，是整个组织。

In fact, you can build a whole strategy just on data collection and fine-tuning and your product will see tremendous success or you can delegate it and it will never happen.

事实上，您可以仅通过数据收集和微调来制定整个策略，您的产品就会取得巨大成功，或者您可以将其委托给他人，但它永远不会发生。

So in many ways that was bringing into the fold, in our phase one, which really started around 2016 for me and every team I went to, the AI component was the area I spent most of my time on.

因此，从很多方面来说，在我们的第一阶段（对我和我加入的每个团队来说，真正开始于 2016 年左右），人工智能组件是我花费大部分时间的领域。

I hired people for that.

我为此雇了人。

Product leaders, I spent most of my, back to how do I spend my resources, most of my resources there.

产品负责人，我花了我的大部分，回到我如何花我的资源，我的大部分资源在那里。

And it was my top priority all the way from strategy to talent.

从战略到人才，这一直是我的首要任务。

And ultimately with the last couple of years we've seen this metamorphosis of AI and this incredible new wave and we've done a pretty big change there as well over the last two years.

最终，在过去几年中，我们看到了人工智能的转变和令人难以置信的新浪潮，并且在过去两年中我们也做了相当大的改变。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love this.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢这个。

So I took some notes on what you're talking about.

所以我对你所说的内容做了一些笔记。

So the big message that I'm taking away so far is as a product leader, you need to think about things that you thought the engineering leader had to think about or the ML engineer was thinking about things like what is the objective of our algorithm?

因此，到目前为止，我要传达的重要信息是，作为产品负责人，您需要考虑您认为工程负责人必须考虑的事情，或者机器学习工程师正在考虑的事情，例如我们算法的目标是什么？

What are the features that we're building into it?

我们正在构建哪些功能？

What is the data collection strategy?

数据收集策略是什么？

How are we fine-tuning it?

我们如何对其进行微调？

As a PM, you should be asking these questions.

作为产品经理，您应该问这些问题。

Tomer Cohen: In fact, you should go all the way to infrastructure.

Tomer Cohen：事实上，你应该一直关注基础设施。

You can have massive lifts in your product outcomes and goals if you probably enhance your infrastructure.

如果您可以增强基础设施，您的产品成果和目标就可以得到巨大提升。

How many product people talk about the infrastructure they have?

有多少产品人员谈论他们拥有的基础设施？

Not many.

不多。

Influencers, those are things ultimately your goal is to win with your products and build a much more experience to your members and customers.

有影响力的人，这些是您的最终目标是通过您的产品获胜并为您的会员和客户建立更多的体验。

Literally just changing the infrastructure on top of what you build.

从字面上看，只是在您构建的基础上更改基础设施。

That could be the biggest lever than you building another button or experience for your members on the top of it.

这可能是比你在其之上为你的会员构建另一个按钮或体验的最大杠杆。

Lenny Rachitsky: So say the PMs at LinkedIn, are you encouraging them all to, how is AI integrating into what you're doing?

Lenny Rachitsky：LinkedIn 的产品经理们说，你们是否鼓励他们所有人，人工智能如何融入到你们正在做的事情中？

How do you just set this up so that teams do this well within LinkedIn?

如何设置才能让团队在 LinkedIn 内出色地完成这项工作？

Tomer Cohen: Yeah.

托默·科恩：是的。

So coming into this role in early 2020, we basically established an AI academy.

因此，在 2020 年初开始担任这个角色时，我们基本上建立了一个人工智能学院。

Every PM had to go through training just like we did mobile in 2014, we moved the whole organization to be mobile first, so everybody had to go through this process.

每个 PM 都必须接受培训，就像我们在 2014 年进行移动培训一样，我们将整个组织转变为移动优先，所以每个人都必须经历这个过程。

I spent a lot of time in my reviews on the AI strategy, the objectives.

我花了很多时间来审查人工智能战略和目标。

We make sure there's actually AI practitioners on the product side who are strong, who can teach.

我们确保产品方面确实有强大的、可以教学的人工智能从业者。

So we in waves started to build more of expertise and distinguished leaders across that can actually bring this learning across the board.

因此，我们一波又一波地开始培养更多的专业知识和杰出的领导者，实际上可以将这种学习带到各个领域。

And then in fall 2022, when we all know what happened, at least a few months after, but we started early, we completely changed our entire almost product operations and portfolio so we can focus on this new wave of AI with LLMs in the front.

然后在 2022 年秋天，当我们都知道发生了什么时，至少几个月后，但我们很早就开始了，我们彻底改变了我们的整个几乎产品运营和投资组合，这样我们就可以专注于以法学硕士为首的人工智能新浪潮。

Tomer Cohen: So LinkedIn has been working with AI very closely since the early days, but mostly as a matchmaker.

Tomer Cohen：LinkedIn 很早就开始与人工智能密切合作，但主要是充当媒人的角色。

So it was the matchmaker for our marketplaces.

所以它是我们市场的媒人。

Somebody looks to hire this dream candidate and then you have a candidate looking for the dream job and AI would be the one doing the matchmaking.

有人希望雇用这位理想的候选人，然后你就有一位候选人正在寻找理想的工作，而人工智能将负责进行匹配。

We talked about the knowledge sharing on the feed.

我们讨论了提要上的知识共享。

It happens in our commerce platform as well.

这也发生在我们的商务平台上。

But AI, I was in the background so I never saw it, it was making those matches.

但是人工智能，我在后台，所以我从来没有看到它，它正在制作那些匹配。

And then with the new level of AI, we actually brought AI from the back of our marketplaces really as the matchmaker to the front.

然后，随着人工智能的新水平，我们实际上将人工智能从市场的后面真正作为媒人带到了前面。

And one of the things we've done there was really asking the teams to completely revisit their entire roadmap.

我们在那里所做的事情之一就是要求团队彻底重新审视他们的整个路线图。

Tomer Cohen: This is fall of 2022, the world will learn about ChatGPT for several in March 2023.

Tomer Cohen：现在是 2022 年秋天，世界将在 2023 年 3 月了解 ChatGPT。

So we had a nice beginning there in terms of getting started.

因此，我们在起步方面有一个良好的开端。

And the goal there was let go of what you've built, let go of your roadmap, go back to the drawing board with what are you trying to solve for, back to that idea of clarity on your problem statement and now tell me what's the solution.

目标是放弃你已经构建的东西，放弃你的路线图，回到绘图板上你想要解决什么问题，回到你的问题陈述的清晰想法，现在告诉我解决方案是什么。

That's very much AI first.

这首先是人工智能。

Lenny Rachitsky: It reminds me, so one of the folks I pinged about you, Shira Gasarch, she used this quote about you, "Maybe you were made for such a time as this." And it connects to a lot what you're talking about where you've been thinking a lot about.

Lenny Rachitsky：这让我想起了，我向 Shira Gasarch 询问过你的其中一个人，她用了这句话来形容你，“也许你就是为这样的时代而生的。”它与你正在谈论的很多事情以及你一直在思考的事情有​​关。

And back then it was called machine learning.

当时它被称为机器学习。

It wasn't called AI for a long time and now it's AI.

很长一段时间以来它不被称为AI，现在它被称为AI。

The fact that you've been on this so long is just a perfect synergy for now.

事实上，你们已经在这方面工作了很长时间，目前来说这只是一个完美的协同作用。

It's working its way into everything.

它正在渗透到一切事物中。

Tomer Cohen: Here's an example that I think sometimes to bring it to people in a more visceral way if you've been building products, product leaders are used to very much dictate the experience they're building.

托默·科恩（Tomer Cohen）：这是一个例子，如果你一直在构建产品，我认为有时会以一种更发自内心的方式将其带给人们，产品领导者习惯于很大程度上决定他们正在构建的体验。

I want this experience to be exactly like this.

我希望这次经历完全像这样。

I want the member to come from here and this is the options they have and I want them to be able to select this and this will be my default and I want the onboarding to progress this way.

我希望会员来自这里，这是他们拥有的选项，我希望他们能够选择这个，这将是我的默认设置，我希望入职流程能够以这种方式进行。

And I think this is one of the biggest shifts with this when you become an AI first leader, is that there's a realization that you don't control the experience anymore, you control the ingredients.

我认为，当你成为人工智能第一领导者时，最大的转变之一是，你会意识到你不再控制体验，而是控制成分。

It's almost like being a chef at the restaurant and you're used to deciding every part of the dish.

这几乎就像是餐厅的厨师，你习惯于决定菜肴的每个部分。

You're deciding everything from the ambiance to the temperature of the broccoli and then this new technology comes in and say, just give me the ingredients, give me the guidelines of how you cook and now I'll take care of it.

你要决定一切，从氛围到西兰花的温度，然后这项新技术进来并说，只要给我原料，给我烹饪方法的指导，现在我来处理它。

I'll take care of it for you.

我会为你处理的。

Tomer Cohen: For many folks, this is a very scary feeling, they're not used to letting go of the control.

托默·科恩：对于很多人来说，这是一种非常可怕的感觉，他们不习惯放弃控制。

Obviously you build safety guards and responsible AI around it and that's super critical.

显然，你围绕它建立了安全防护装置和负责任的人工智能，这是非常重要的。

But at the essence of it, AI is not deterministic.

但从本质上讲，人工智能并不是确定性的。

So giving it the rope to learn and do that experience for you ultimately would become much, much better.

因此，让它来学习并为你提供这种体验最终会变得更好。

You have to have that belief going into it.

你必须有这样的信念。

Lenny Rachitsky: Along those lines, I'm curious if there's anything you do to avoid, everyone's like, cool AI into everything and then all these stupid things ship, then no one wants.

Lenny Rachitsky：沿着这些思路，我很好奇是否有什么事情是你需要避免的，每个人都喜欢，将很酷的人工智能引入到一切事物中，然后所有这些愚蠢的东西都会出现，然后没有人想要。

I saw this hilarious meme of like, oh wait, we built a kind of dumb artificial person.

我看到了这个搞笑的模因，比如，哦等等，我们建造了一种愚蠢的人造人。

Let's integrate it into everything.

让我们将它融入到一切中。

Now it's everywhere.

现在它无处不在。

Is there anything you've learned about just how not to ship stuff that isn't great?

您是否学到了如何不交付不好的东西？

Tomer Cohen: I can tell you what we've done here and we've failed a lot, but we learned so much along the way.

托默·科恩：我可以告诉你我们在这里做了什么，我们失败了很多，但我们一路走来学到了很多东西。

When we started it in fall 2022, literally started with me calling the leaders coming to the room and we talked about, okay, let go of your roadmaps, like what we've done, great, but I want to let go of the roadmaps and I want to instead go back to what you're trying to solve for and let's meet in a couple of weeks and tell me how you're thinking differently about what you're trying to solve for knowing we have this technology in a role for us.

当我们在 2022 年秋季开始时，我首先打电话给领导们来到会议室，我们讨论了，好吧，放弃你的路线图，就像我们所做的那样，很好，但我想放弃路线图，我想回到你想要解决的问题，让我们几周后见面，告诉我你对你想要解决的问题有什么不同的想法，因为知道我们拥有这项技术。

So that was a starting point around just setting out some ground and principles around it.

因此，这是围绕它制定一些基础和原则的起点。

But we didn't start with new objectives to solve.

但我们并没有从新的目标开始解决。

So it wasn't like, "Oh, we have this cool technology, what can we do with it?" It was like go back to the objectives you were trying to solve and now with this technology, how can you do that objective better?

所以这并不是说，“哦，我们有这项很酷的技术，我们能用它做什么？”这就像回到你试图解决的目标，现在有了这项技术，你怎样才能更好地实现这个目标？

Tomer Cohen: The second part is we actually allowed teams to run to really inspire creativity.

托默·科恩：第二部分是我们实际上允许团队跑步来真正激发创造力。

I didn't want to contain them.

我不想遏制他们。

I wanted to get them really excited about the potential here.

我想让他们对这里的潜力感到非常兴奋。

And even some things we're building duplicates for a while of similar ideas but done differently because part of it was I was learning.

甚至有些事情我们正在一段时间内重复类似的想法，但做得不同，因为其中一部分是我正在学习。

I was very excited to see what people would come up with and see how they can do it.

我很高兴看到人们会想出什么以及他们如何做到这一点。

And there was no playbook for building this really, really well.

而且没有任何剧本可以让这个项目变得非常非常好。

And in many ways we were writing the playbook.

从很多方面来说，我们正在编写剧本。

Prompt engineering became a playbook internally for us, which every day was amazing.

即时工程成为我们内部的一本手册，每天都令人惊叹。

How do you cognitively reverse engineer the brain a little bit?

如何对大脑进行认知逆向工程？

That was incredible.

这太不可思议了。

In fact, a lot of things we've learned so much ahead of the market and even shared with OpenAI and shared with Microsoft.

事实上，我们在市场之前学到了很多东西，甚至与 OpenAI 和 Microsoft 共享。

But then after that period of just everybody getting excited and building, we basically brought it down and we did top-down got it.

但在每个人都兴奋和建设的那段时间之后，我们基本上把它放下了，我们自上而下地得到了它。

Tomer Cohen: So we basically picked back to the objectives we had out of everything that we've seen, those for us look like the best four biggest best we want to want to aim for and we want to converge resourcing across it.

托默·科恩：所以我们基本上从我们所看到的一切中回顾了我们的目标，对我们来说，这些目标看起来像是我们想要实现的最好的四个最大的最佳目标，我们希望在其中集中资源。

So no more everybody's building whatever they want.

因此，不再是每个人都在建造他们想要的任何东西。

We also, capacity is also constraint.

我们也是，能力也是制约的。

Cost is a constraint.

成本是一个制约因素。

We want to start bringing them together.

我们想开始将它们聚集在一起。

So we really much allowed people to, I would say in many words, diverge.

所以，我用很多话来说，我们确实允许人们存在分歧。

But then I would say several weeks after converge, but we had a lot more excitement and understanding about how this thing works and what we can actually do with it.

但我想说的是，在融合几周后，我们对这个东西如何工作以及我们实际上可以用它做什么有了更多的兴奋和理解。

Lenny Rachitsky: Love that advice.

Lenny Rachitsky：喜欢这个建议。

Basically give people a bunch of time and space to explore and experiment R and D and then as a top-down strategy, pick through this.

基本上给人们大量的时间和空间来探索和实验研发，然后作为自上而下的策略，通过这个进行选择。

Tomer Cohen: The top-down, we were like, there was literally, usually I do product jams for every multiple topics we have throughout the quarter.

托默·科恩：从上到下，我们就像，实际上，通常我会为整个季度的每个多个主题举办产品研讨会。

I just did every week.

我只是每周都做。

I just reviewed the five bets we had on a reputed basis, nothing else.

我只是回顾了我们在信誉良好的基础上进行的五个赌注，除此之外没有其他任何事情。

Because it was so important for them to understand that this is what I care about and we had to be focused about it.

因为让他们明白这就是我关心的事情非常重要，我们必须专注于此。

Lenny Rachitsky: It feels like that space to explore and go crazy is important because otherwise people at the company are going to be like, "Oh, I wish, there's so many, this thing I want to try with AI, we should try it." And they'll just be pissed because they don't have time to work on it.

Lenny Rachitsky：感觉探索和疯狂的空间很重要，因为否则公司的人会说，“哦，我希望，有这么多，我想用人工智能尝试的东西，我们应该尝试一下。”他们只会生气，因为他们没有时间去做这件事。

Tomer Cohen: It's a great point.

托默·科恩：这是一个很好的观点。

It wasn't my intention, but I love that you're saying it.

这不是我的本意，但我喜欢你这么说。

It's a great point because I think it gives them that.

这是一个很好的观点，因为我认为它给了他们这一点。

I was actually, for me sometimes almost in a, maybe too much, but I try to focus on learning.

事实上，对我来说，有时几乎处于一种，也许太多了，但我努力专注于学习。

I was trying.

我正在尝试。

I knew just going like this, we weren't going to learn a lot, but having people come back and trying different things and slightly going crazy and pushing the boundaries, we would learn so much.

我知道就这样下去，我们不会学到很多东西，但是当人们回来尝试不同的事情并稍微疯狂并突破界限时，我们会学到很多东西。

So for me it was learning, but I love the motivation around, also allowing them to have the energy.

所以对我来说这是学习，但我喜欢周围的动力，也让他们拥有能量。

Lenny Rachitsky: It relates to another point that a recent podcast episode I had with Brian Chesky where he introduces chaos sometimes when things are feeling too comfortable, when roadmaps, everything's calm, everything's on schedule.

Lenny Rachitsky：这与我最近与 Brian Chesky 一起做的播客节目中的另一点有关，他有时会在事情感觉太舒服时、当路线图、一切都很平静、一切都按计划进行时引入混乱。

He's just like, "How do we do this in one day versus in two weeks?

他就像是，“我们如何在一天内完成这件事而不是在两周内完成？

Let's just see what happens."

让我们看看会发生什么。”

Tomer Cohen: Yeah, because I think people get, there is just inertia, people get into their, it's human behavior, people get into their lanes, they start to feel really comfortable within the lanes, and then they don't know that there's a different way to do things and you have to almost externally invoke that or trigger that.

托默·科恩：是的，因为我认为人们会，这只是惯性，人们进入他们的，这是人类行为，人们进入他们的车道，他们开始在车道内感到非常舒服，然后他们不知道有不同的做事方式，你几乎必须从外部调用或触发它。

Lenny Rachitsky: If we think about just your career arc, I'm zooming out a little bit.

Lenny Rachitsky：如果我们只考虑你的职业生涯，我会缩小一点。

You helped create the mobile experience on LinkedIn.

您帮助打造了 LinkedIn 的移动体验。

You built the feed initially and now you're in front of AI.

您最初构建了提要，现在您处于人工智能面前。

I could see why you're so successful at LinkedIn.

我明白你为什么在 LinkedIn 如此成功了。

I was talking to folks about your career arc at LinkedIn and you basically went from senior PM to senior PM number two, to group PM to director, to senior director to VP, to CPO in not that many years, it's a pretty meteoric rise.

我在和人们谈论你在 LinkedIn 的职业生涯轨迹时，你基本上从高级 PM 到高级 PM 二号人物，从集团 PM 到总监，从高级总监到 VP，再到 CPO，用不了几年的时间，这是一个相当飞速的上升。

I wanted to spend a little time here and I want to maybe start with the question of just if you could give one specific piece of advice for someone looking to advance in their career based on what you found to be really effective, what would that be?

我想在这里花一点时间，我想从这样一个问题开始：如果你可以根据你发现的真正有效的建议，为那些希望在职业生涯中取得进步的人提供一条具体的建议，那会是什么？

Tomer Cohen: I realized everybody's in every stage in their career and they have different ways to think about the role then what they need.

托默·科恩：我意识到每个人都处于职业生涯的每个阶段，他们有不同的方式来思考这个角色以及他们需要什么。

Maybe I'll just share about my journey, what worked for me instead of giving more of a general advice.

也许我只会分享我的旅程，以及对我有用的东西，而不是提供更多一般性建议。

First of all, I feel super fortunate I'm building.

首先，我对自己正在建造的东西感到非常幸运。

That's what I love doing.

这就是我喜欢做的事情。

I love building, I love working with builders.

我喜欢建筑，我喜欢与建筑商一起工作。

Sometimes I'm like, I get paid for this, this is insane.

有时我想，我为此得到报酬，这太疯狂了。

But I love my craft and I love getting deep into it.

但我热爱我的手艺，并且喜欢深入研究它。

So in many ways I think the things I'm excited about is the things I'm doing.

所以从很多方面来说，我认为让我兴奋的事情就是我正在做的事情。

When people are starting off, I usually really focus on learning from great people.

当人们刚起步时，我通常会专注于向优秀的人学习。

People you talk to or have amazing mentors and managers.

与您交谈的人或拥有出色的导师和经理的人。

Some of them don't even know there were every mentors.

他们中的一些人甚至不知道有每一位导师。

It's not like a mentor officially.

这不像是正式的导师。

I try to pick up things from people all the time, and that's been just a remarkable experience working with great people.

我一直试图从人们那里学到东西，与优秀的人一起工作是一次非凡的经历。

Tomer Cohen: And in many ways, a lot of those great people actually allowed me or empowered me to take on some bigger challenges.

托默·科恩：在很多方面，很多伟大的人实际上允许我或授权我去应对一些更大的挑战。

So I can see forks in the road where if it wasn't for that person saying something very specific, probably would've done something differently.

所以我可以看到岔路口，如果不是那个人说了一些非常具体的话，可能会采取不同的做法。

And it just made me think a lot.

这让我思考了很多。

So I really tried to absorb learning from great people.

所以我真的很努力地向伟大的人学习。

But by far, for me personally, again, this is very personal versus generic advice, it was when I moved here, I was an engineer for many years before I moved here for graduate school in 2008.

但到目前为止，对我个人来说，这又是一个非常个人化的建议，而不是一般性的建议，那是在我搬到这里的时候，我在 2008 年搬到这里读研究生之前，已经做了很多年的工程师。

And I always loved building, that was there from a young age but when I moved here, I realized my career path was very much dictated by one thing.

我一直很喜欢建筑，从很小的时候起就在那里，但当我搬到这里时，我意识到我的职业道路在很大程度上是由一件事决定的。

It was like, what's most in demand?

就像，最需要什么？

What's most challenging?

什么是最具挑战性的？

And how do I do that?

我该怎么做？

It was very childish in many ways.

从很多方面来说，这都非常幼稚。

Tomer Cohen: It was not dictated by me, it was in a way dictated by society.

托默·科恩：这不是我决定的，而是社会决定的。

So what's the toughest engineering role?

那么最困难的工程角色是什么？

What's the best company to go into?

进什么公司最好？

What's the best army unit to serve in?

最适合在哪个部队服役？

And I fell a lot along the way, but I always kept going.

一路上我跌倒了很多，但我一直坚持下去。

And then when I came here, there was a really big challenging for me personally around what do I care about?

当我来到这里时，我个人面临着一个非常大的挑战，我关心什么？

What matters most to me?

对我来说最重要的是什么？

And that was, again, it's very personal in many ways.

再说一次，它在很多方面都是非常个人化的。

It was very much for me, an impact on learning and actually how do I create impact more broadly?

这对我来说非常重要，对学习产生了影响，实际上我如何创造更广泛的影响？

And I shifted 180 in how my thought process used to go.

我的思维过程发生了 180 度的转变。

It was less about what was out there and exciting and in demand and challenging and it was more about where did I have strong conviction on, what was I passionate about and where did I feel I could make a dent and learn?

重要的不是外面有什么、令人兴奋的、有需求的和具有挑战性的，而是更多的是我对什么有坚定的信念，我对什么充满热情，以及我觉得我可以在哪些方面有所进步和学习？

Tomer Cohen: And that was my path forward.

托默·科恩：这就是我前进的道路。

So after school with a student visa and massive school debt, I decided to start a company which was not a very intelligent decision based on my economic circumstances, but I didn't care.

因此，带着学生签证和巨额学校债务放学后，我决定创办一家公司，根据我的经济状况，这不是一个非常明智的决定，但我不在乎。

I was like, this is my new path.

我当时想，这是我的新道路。

And then I got into LinkedIn.

然后我加入了LinkedIn。

I didn't apply for a job.

我没有申请工作。

I met with who was in my role today, Deep Nishar, at that time and we talked and I said, "This is how I think this is how LinkedIn mobile should be built." And he was like, "Okay, how about you come and build it?" I was like, "Amazing." So I didn't apply to LinkedIn and then at LinkedIn I was always like, this is what I want to do, this is what's exciting for me and this is the dent I think I can make and this is my plan for it.

我会见了当时担任我职务的 Deep Nishar，我们进行了交谈，我说：“我认为这就是 LinkedIn 移动版的构建方式。”他说：“好吧，你来建造它怎么样？”我当时想，“太棒了。”所以我没有申请LinkedIn，然后在LinkedIn我总是想，这就是我想做的事情，这对我来说是令人兴奋的，这是我认为我可以做出的成绩，这就是我的计划。

Tomer Cohen: I don't know if this is a recommendation for everybody, but for me it's worked really, really well.

托默·科恩：我不知道这是否是对每个人的建议，但对我来说，它确实非常有效。

It was really pursuing the conviction I had and my excitement and bring that to the fold with people.

它真的是在追求我的信念和我的兴奋，并将其带给人们。

I do think that in products, in building product, if you're not genuinely excited about what you want to build, you don't have conviction about it, it's going to be very hard for you to make a big impact.

我确实认为，在产品中，在构建产品时，如果你对自己想要构建的东西没有真正的兴奋，你对此没有信念，那么你将很难产生巨大的影响。

Lenny Rachitsky: That's also a similar theme from my most recent podcast with Vlad of just, if you don't actually buy into the mission of the place you're working on, you're not going to have a good time.

Lenny Rachitsky：这也是我最近与 Vlad 的播客的类似主题，如果你没有真正认同你正在工作的地方的使命，你就不会玩得很开心。

Tomer Cohen: Yeah.

托默·科恩：是的。

Say for product people, it's a very fortunate position.

对于产品人员来说，这是一个非常幸运的职位。

I always tell people, if you're in one of the most fortunate positions you can have, because if you just measure thing, for you, just measure based on your career and so on, people are going to evaluate you based on your actual work.

我总是告诉人们，如果你处于你能拥有的最幸运的职位之一，因为如果你只是衡量事物，对你来说，只是根据你的职业等来衡量，人们就会根据你的实际工作来评估你。

It's a very special place.

这是一个非常特别的地方。

Nobody cares about your title, who cares?

没人关心你的头衔，谁在乎？

It's not.

它不是。

Maybe the company name for some people matters, but for the most part, it's about the impact you created with the products you've built.

也许公司名称对某些人来说很重要，但在大多数情况下，它与您所构建的产品所产生的影响有关。

If I think about somebody's resume, I think if it was a product resume, it would be the products you built and the impact you had with it.

如果我考虑某人的简历，我想如果这是一份产品简历，那将是您构建的产品以及您对其产生的影响。

I don't care about the companies you worked at, I don't care about the logos, I don't care about the titles.

我不在乎你工作过的公司，我不在乎标志，我不在乎标题。

Slightly, again, not to overextend, but somebody, it's almost like an artist, right?

再说一次，不要过度延伸，但是有人，这几乎就像一个艺术家，对吧？

It's like whatever, a musician, it's the albums you took out and how well they did.

就像任何事情一样，一个音乐家，重要的是你拿出的专辑以及它们的表现如何。

And I think for product people, it's a very fortunate place to be that you get measured based on the impact you had.

我认为对于产品人员来说，这是一个非常幸运的地方，因为你可以根据你所产生的影响进行衡量。

Lenny Rachitsky: It sounds like a LinkedIn feature idea right there.

Lenny Rachitsky：这听起来像是 LinkedIn 的特色创意。

I feel like if there's any company that could make that happen, it'd be you guys.

我觉得如果有任何公司可以实现这一目标，那就是你们了。

So some of the takeaways here essentially is try to index towards what are you actually excited about and motivated to work on and driven by versus where it's the most amazing company to work at are the most challenging problem.

因此，这里的一些要点本质上是尝试将你真正感到兴奋、有动力去工作、受其驱动的因素与在最令人惊叹的公司工作时最具挑战性的问题进行索引。

Tomer Cohen: Yeah, I think sometimes great companies have great opportunities for you to have dent at scale, but you need to be the one doing it.

托默·科恩：是的，我认为有时候伟大的公司会给你很大的机会来大规模地发挥作用，但你需要成为那个人。

If you are thinking about, I don't know, a title or that did not, once I did the change into my excitement around impact, that's been at least my yardstick.

如果你正在考虑，我不知道，一个标题或没有，一旦我将影响转变为我的兴奋，这至少是我的标准。

When I look at people that I talk to or interview internally, the first thing to my mind to me is like, "What did you build and what did you learn and how well did they do?" That's what I care about.

当我看到与我交谈或内部采访的人时，我首先想到的是，“你建造了什么，你学到了什么，他们做得怎么样？”这就是我关心的。

Lenny Rachitsky: I imagine there's also people on the other side where all they do is work on things that really exciting to them and they could use a little pushing towards the other direction of what's actually important in the world.

Lenny Rachitsky：我想也有一些人在另一边，他们所做的只是做那些真正让他们兴奋的事情，他们可以稍微推动一下世界上真正重要的事情的另一个方向。

Tomer Cohen: 100%.

托默·科恩：100%。

If you tell me, again, everybody has their different, if you tell me, "Hey, you can work on something super exciting, but it's on the fringes of the company or you can work on something which is a bit more grindy, but it's on the core of the company." The latter, no doubt, for me, impact first.

如果你再次告诉我，每个人都有自己的不同，如果你告诉我，“嘿，你可以做一些超级令人兴奋的事情，但它是在公司的边缘，或者你可以做一些更苦涩的事情，但它是公司的核心。”毫无疑问，后者对我来说首先产生影响。

Lenny Rachitsky: And just listening to the story you've told of the things you decided to focus on as a clear example that you saw, hey, there's this huge opportunity in the feed, I'm going to go tackle that or mobile.

Lenny Rachitsky：只要听你讲述的关于你决定关注的事情的故事，作为你看到的一个清晰的例子，嘿，提要中有一个巨大的机会，我将去解决这个问题或移动。

So I think there's a lot of, it's kind of this Venn diagram is what I'm taking away of just what's important, what am I excited about?

所以我认为有很多，这个维恩图就是我从重要的东西中提取出来的，我对什么感到兴奋？

Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

Okay, so I note you got to run relatively soon, so we're going to get to our very exciting lightning round.

好的，我注意到你必须尽快跑步，所以我们将进入非常激动人心的闪电回合。

But before we do that, is there anything else that you think would be interesting or useful for folks to know or leave them with?

但在我们这样做之前，您认为还有什么其他事情对人们来说是有趣或有用的，或者留给他们的吗？

I know we covered a bunch of things already.

我知道我们已经讨论了很多事情。

Tomer Cohen: Yeah.

托默·科恩：是的。

One thing that actually I've now built it into a podcast, but something I'm really excited about is I don't think there's one way of building.

实际上我现在已经将其构建到播客中，但令我真正兴奋的是我认为没有一种构建方法。

Remember when the Steve Jobs biography came out, everybody read it.

还记得当史蒂夫·乔布斯的传记出版时，每个人都读过它。

Oh, that's the way to build and that was unique to him.

哦，这就是建造的方式，这对他来说是独一无二的。

And one of the things I love a lot is when I look at great builders, they're all very distinct, they're all different.

我非常喜欢的一件事是，当我看到伟大的建设者时，他们都非常独特，他们都是不同的。

And I used to do this thing internally, I used to invite product builders of different disciplines and have a fireside chat with them.

我曾经在内部做过这件事，我曾经邀请不同学科的产品构建者并与他们进行炉边聊天。

And I saw people across the company join not just PMs or designers, but folks across and I build that into a podcast.

我看到整个公司的人们不仅加入了产品经理或设计师，还加入了其他人，我将其构建成一个播客。

Tomer Cohen: I love your podcast.

托默·科恩：我喜欢你的播客。

Mine is very different.

我的很不一样。

It's more around what is their edge a little bit.

更重要的是他们的优势是什么。

This is from the co-founder of Pixar, Ed Catmull, to the CPO of Canva or Spotify, Roblox, but all the way to a chef, Dan Barber, who's the number one chef in the US for many years.

从皮克斯的联合创始人 Ed Catmull，到 Canva 或 Spotify 的首席产品官 Roblox，一直到多年来位居美国第一厨师的丹·巴伯 (Dan Barber)。

And it's just everybody has their craft and they do it differently.

只是每个人都有自己的手艺，而且他们的做法不同。

It's called BuildingOne, I'm excited about it.

它叫 BuildingOne，我对此很兴奋。

It's a little bit of a plug right now, Lenny.

现在有点麻烦了，莱尼。

Lenny Rachitsky: Please.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：拜托。

Yeah.

是的。

Where do people find it?

人们在哪里找到它？

Let's blow it up.

让我们把它炸掉吧。

It's called BuildingOne?

这叫建一吗？

Tomer Cohen: BuildingOne on Apple or Spotify.

Tomer Cohen：Apple 或 Spotify 上的 BuildingOne。

Tomer Cohen: It's short and it's really about showing you different disciplines from a chef to an animation director.

托默·科恩：它很短，但实际上是向您展示从厨师到动画导演的不同学科。

And really the main learning there is everybody builds differently and you can be very successful, but it's very authentic to how they are personally, and it's how they push their craft to the limit.

事实上，主要的学习是每个人的构建方式都不同，你可以非常成功，但这对他们个人来说是非常真实的，这就是他们如何将自己的技艺推向极限。

It's how well they've done their craft.

这就是他们的手艺做得有多好。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love that.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢这个。

And something I super believe is just the power of focusing on your strengths and the things that make you a little different versus trying to become good at everything.

我非常相信的是，专注于自己的优势和那些让你有所不同的事情，而不是试图在所有事情上都变得擅长，这就是力量。

Lenny Rachitsky: That's so cool.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：那太酷了。

Okay, BuildOne.

好的，BuildOne。

We'll link to it in the show notes.

我们将在演出笔记中链接到它。

Lenny Rachitsky: BuildingOne.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：BuildingOne。

BuildingOne.

建筑一号。

Okay.

好的。

Amazing.

惊人的。

And it's on all the podcasting platforms.

它出现在所有播客平台上。

Okay, great.

好的，太好了。

With that, we've reached a very exciting lightning round.

至此，我们进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。

Are you ready?

你准备好了吗？

Lenny Rachitsky: All right.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

First question is, what are two or three books that you recommended most to other people?

第一个问题是，您向其他人推荐最多的两三本书是什么？

Tomer Cohen: So I have this continuously, actually it's these three.

托默·科恩：所以我一直都有这个，实际上就是这三个。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love that you have them right there.

Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢你把它们放在那里。

Tomer Cohen: I can just tell you about them but-

托默·科恩：我可以告诉你有关它们的信息，但是-

Lenny Rachitsky: They look very back there.

Lenny Rachitsky：他们看起来很靠后。

Don't

不要

Tomer Cohen: I'm not going to destroy my study.

托默·科恩：我不会毁掉我的研究。

So I love fundamentals.

所以我喜欢基础知识。

I love studying from fundamentals.

我喜欢从基础开始学习。

So if you're somebody who starts in your career, my fundamental books is One Mindset.

因此，如果您是刚开始职业生涯的人，我的基本书籍是《一种心态》。

It's about growth mindset.

这是关于成长心态的。

It's about basically the ability to continuously grow over time in one sentence is the whole idea is our skills, our abilities are malleable, we can completely develop them, we can build expertise and craft and mastery and it's really a mindset change.

基本上，用一句话来说，就是随着时间的推移不断成长的能力，整个想法就是我们的技能，我们的能力是可塑的，我们可以完全发展它们，我们可以建立专业知识、工艺和掌握，这确实是一种心态的改变。

And Carol Dweck wrote the book, was also my wife's manager, and that's how we got into that.

卡罗尔·德韦克（Carol Dweck）写了这本书，也是我妻子的经理，我们就是这样进入的。

Tomer Cohen: So that's like our second religion at home.

托默·科恩：这就像我们家里的第二宗教。

Second book is Thinking, Fast and Slow by Daniel Kahneman.

第二本书是丹尼尔·卡尼曼的《思考，快与慢》。

I love behavioral economics.

我喜欢行为经济学。

When I think about products, I think I always start from people, what is the member expectation?

当我思考产品时，我想我总是从人出发，会员的期望是什么？

What are they trying to do?

他们想做什么？

And this is the Bible for behavior.

这是行为圣经。

So if you're building front end products or even you're thinking about how you rally organization, it's an incredible book.

因此，如果您正在构建前端产品，或者甚至正在考虑如何团结组织，那么这是一本令人难以置信的书。

Every page is like a stopper.

每一页都像一个塞子。

You have to stop and think.

你必须停下来思考。

And then lastly, and on the fundamental side is High Output Management by Andy Grove.

最后，在基本方面是安迪·格罗夫（Andy Grove）的高产出管理。

It's like there's so much basics to doing good manager.

好像要做一名优秀的经理有很多基础知识。

It's like I think after you read this book, your managerial skills should start from a B.

就像我认为读完这本书后，你的管理技能应该从B开始。

and then you can over time become an A.

然后随着时间的推移你就可以成为A。

But beginning to a B is just a level of putting the effort in and knowing the best practices.

但从 B 开始只是付出努力并了解最佳实践的一个阶段。

So I think those are all fundamentally great books that I really like to give to people.

所以我认为这些都是我真正喜欢送给人们的伟大书籍。

Lenny Rachitsky: That's awesome.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

I love that they're right there behind you.

我喜欢他们就在你身后。

Is there a favorite recent movie or TV show you've really enjoyed?

最近有没有您真正喜欢的最喜欢的电影或电视节目？

Tomer Cohen: Yesterday I saw Bluey, you know Bluey?

托默·科恩：昨天我看到了布鲁伊，你认识布鲁伊吗？

Lenny Rachitsky: I've heard of Bluey.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我听说过布鲁伊。

My kid is not old enough for it yet.

我的孩子还不够大。

Tomer Cohen: I love Bluey.

托默·科恩：我爱布鲁伊。

So Bluey is this animation series from Australia and what's beautiful about it's, I can watch it with my six-year-old, nine-year-old and 12-year-old, and we're all going to enjoy it.

《Bluey》是一部来自澳大利亚的动画系列，它的美妙之处在于，我可以和我六岁、九岁和十二岁的孩子一起观看它，我们都会喜欢它。

We're all going to laugh at the same point but at the nuance of the jokes.

我们都会在同一时刻发笑，但会因为笑话的细微差别而发笑。

It's like when I think about a product, the way Bluey is built, it's built for the whole family, but it's built as layers.

就像当我想到一款产品时，Bluey 的构建方式是为整个家庭构建的，但它是分层构建的。

There's layers of dialogue and points that they're trying to get across, and it's all packaged together into one experience.

他们试图传达多层对话和要点，并将其全部打包成一种体验。

So for me, it's amazing that I could sit next to my six-year-old daughter, we would both laugh at this, it's a sweet animation kind of thing, it's like a family of dogs.

所以对我来说，我能坐在我六岁的女儿旁边真是太棒了，我们都会笑，这是一个甜蜜的动画，就像一个狗的家庭。

And she would laugh at the nuance of the point, at a different nuance.

她会嘲笑这一点的细微差别，以不同的细微差别。

For me it's like that's a genius creation of how you build a product.

对我来说，这就像构建产品的天才创造。

Lenny Rachitsky: Speaking of Ed Catmull, the Pixar does that really well as well.

Lenny Rachitsky：说到 Ed Catmull，皮克斯在这方面也做得很好。

Lenny Rachitsky: And I feel like the story of Bluey is really incredible too.

Lenny Rachitsky：我觉得 Bluey 的故事也非常令人难以置信。

It's just like a random little independent group and they just are making tons of money with it.

它就像一个随机的小独立团体，他们只是用它赚了很多钱。

Tomer Cohen: It's just amazing.

托默·科恩：这真是太神奇了。

The dialogue there is one, it's slightly edgy but not too edgy.

其中的对话有一点，有点尖锐，但又不太尖锐。

It's exactly right.

这是完全正确的。

It's just exactly right.

这是完全正确的。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

Makes me want to watch it.

让我很想看。

Okay.

好的。

Do you have a favorite product that you've recently discovered that you really love, whether it's physical or in digital?

您最近发现了您真正喜欢的最喜欢的产品，无论是实体产品还是数字产品？

Tomer Cohen: So I like playing guitar.

托默·科恩：所以我喜欢弹吉他。

It's amateur, I'm not that good, but I love playing it.

这是业余的，我不太擅长，但我喜欢玩。

And there is a combination I've done recently I really like, there's a Spark Amp I have, which allows me to play with effects easily, but that's not what I use it for.

我最近做了一个我非常喜欢的组合，我有一个 Spark Amp，它可以让我轻松地演奏效果，但这不是我用它的目的。

I can tune my guitar based on the specific song I like.

我可以根据我喜欢的特定歌曲来调整我的吉他。

See, if I want to do Pink Floyd or Metallica or Nirvana or David Bowie, I can get that tune easily.

瞧，如果我想演奏 Pink Floyd、Metallica、Nirvana 或 David Bowie，我可以轻松掌握这些曲调。

I don't have to be an expert.

我不必成为专家。

I can just download the tune to my guitar, which is so great.

我可以将曲子下载到我的吉他上，这太棒了。

Tomer Cohen: And then I couple that with the, it's called the Ultimate Guitar app, and basically it doesn't give me the chords and the tabs, it gives me the other instruments, so I can get the drums going.

Tomer Cohen：然后我将其与“终极吉他”应用程序结合起来，基本上它不会为我提供和弦和标签，而是为我提供其他乐器，这样我就可以敲鼓了。

I can get the, it's a violin going, whatever that is that's going in the band.

我能明白，这是小提琴演奏，无论乐队里演奏什么。

As somebody who does not play so well and plays for itself and nobody's supposed to listen to how I'm playing because it's really just a way for me to enjoy my time.

作为一个打得不太好的人，为自己而打，没有人应该听我打球，因为这实际上只是我享受时间的一种方式。

It's just an amazing, I would never get into any band, so this is the closest I can get to get to a band.

这真是太棒了，我永远不会加入任何乐队，所以这是我能最接近的乐队。

So I love that combination.

所以我喜欢这个组合。

Lenny Rachitsky: I wish we could close this podcast episode with you playing your guitar, but .

Lenny Rachitsky：我希望我们能以你弹吉他的方式结束这一集播客，但是……

Tomer Cohen: I don't know if that will help the ratings of the show.

托默·科恩：我不知道这是否会对节目的收视率有所帮助。

Lenny Rachitsky: No, man, that's amazing.

Lenny Rachitsky：不，伙计，这太棒了。

Okay, two more questions.

好吧，还有两个问题。

Do you have a favorite life motto that you often repeat yourself, find really useful in work or in life, share with folks?

您是否有一条最喜欢的人生格言，您经常重复自己，发现在工作或生活中非常有用，并与人们分享？

Tomer Cohen: From growth mindset there's a motto that I really like.

托默·科恩：从成长心态来看，有一句我非常喜欢的座右铭。

It's called becoming is better than being.

这就是所谓的“成为比存在更好”。

It's like the moment you think you achieved something is the moment you start to deteriorate down.

就像当你认为自己取得了某些成就的那一刻，你就开始堕落了。

It's like we're really trying to grow as human beings.

就像我们真的在努力作为人类成长一样。

We're trying to learn, we're trying to evolve.

我们正在努力学习，我们正在努力发展。

Product is a good example.

产品就是一个很好的例子。

I think the moment you think you actually mastered it is the moment that you become obsolete.

我认为，当你认为自己真正掌握了它的那一刻，你就变得过时了。

So I love the idea that becoming is a better goal than continuously trying to reach some kind of level.

所以我喜欢这样的想法：成为一个比不断尝试达到某种水平更好的目标。

Lenny Rachitsky: Love that.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：喜欢这个。

Final question, just to come back to LinkedIn.

最后一个问题，回到LinkedIn。

Is there a fun feature of LinkedIn people don't know about or should check out?

LinkedIn 是否有一项人们不知道或应该查看的有趣功能？

Is there anything new that's like, oh, that's something you should try or that's something that might surprise you about LinkedIn these days?

最近 LinkedIn 上是否有任何新的东西，例如，哦，这是您应该尝试的东西，或者可能会让您感到惊讶的东西？

Tomer Cohen: Maybe I'll give a couple so I don't have to pick the best right off the bat.

托默·科恩：也许我会给几个，这样我就不必立即挑选最好的。

But one right now, we're heavily invested in video and it's doing so well for those creators.

但现在，我们在视频方面投入了大量资金，而且它对那些创作者来说表现得非常好。

We talked about it like immersive video we can actually come in.

我们谈论它就像我们可以实际进入的沉浸式视频一样。

We talked about for us, video is obviously a best practice right now in the industry, but on LinkedIn, the right views really matter.

我们谈到，视频显然是目前业界的最佳实践，但在 LinkedIn 上，正确的观点确实很重要。

So highly encourage creators to think about their video play at LinkedIn.

因此，强烈鼓励创作者考虑他们在 LinkedIn 上的视频播放。

And then I think what we call our coach experience in some cases is so powerful.

然后我认为我们所说的教练经验在某些情况下是如此强大。

For job seekers out there, we have people hired on LinkedIn, there's like seven folks hired every minute.

对于求职者来说，我们在 LinkedIn 上招聘了人员，大约每分钟就有 7 个人被聘用。

Job seeking is a lonely journey.

求职是一段孤独的旅程。

Tomer Cohen: I was actually in a session recently meeting with job seekers and I was talking to them and one started crying midway into the session because they said, "I cannot share my journey with anybody because I feel like I'm alone in this.

托默·科恩：实际上，我最近在一次与求职者会面的会议上，我正在与他们交谈，其中有人在会议进行到一半时开始哭泣，因为他们说，“我无法与任何人分享我的旅程，因为我觉得我很孤独。

People don't get how hard it is.

人们不明白这有多难。

I feel very accomplished, but I can't get the job.

我感觉很有成就感，但我却找不到这份工作。

And I wish there was a buddy, I wish there was something that I could talk to brainstorm with who wouldn't judge me, who would just be trying to help me without paying hundreds of dollars to a coach of some sort.

我希望有一个朋友，我希望有一个可以让我进行头脑风暴的人，他不会评判我，他只是想帮助我，而不需要向某种教练支付数百美元。

I don't have that money."

我没有那个钱。”

Tomer Cohen: And in many ways, when we walked him through the job seeking experience, the coach experience, we build this coach aspect where you can go to any job and you can riff on the job with this really new realities LLM that is tailored to you, personalized to you, private to you, everything from your fit to how to best apply, to consulting about different opportunities, to comparing this to others, to feeling supported.

托默·科恩：在很多方面，当我们带他经历求职经历、教练经历时，我们建立了教练方面，你可以去任何工作，你可以用这个真正新的现实法学硕士来即兴发挥，这是为你量身定制的、个性化的、私人的，一切从你的适合度到如何最好地申请，到咨询不同的机会，到与其他人进行比较，到感觉受到支持。

So when we talk to people around, we always, I love to measure the impact of our work by emotion, when we talk to job seekers after that, it was basically the sense of I felt supported.

所以当我们与周围的人交谈时，我们总是，我喜欢用情感来衡量我们工作的影响，当我们之后与求职者交谈时，基本上是一种我感到被支持的感觉。

In many ways, getting to that ability to remove the loneliness is amazing.

从很多方面来说，获得消除孤独感的能力是令人惊奇的。

It's a little bit like people need to, we're making it more and more visible and more and more ramped to everybody to a certain point.

这有点像人们需要的，我们正在让它变得越来越明显，并且在某种程度上越来越向每个人倾斜。

But that's a really powerful way to just humanize the job seeking experience for everybody.

但这是一种非常有效的方式，可以使每个人的求职体验变得人性化。

Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

And to find that it's just, is it called LinkedIn Coach or?

发现它只是，它叫LinkedIn Coach 还是？

Tomer Cohen: It's in the job.

托默·科恩：这是在工作中。

So if you go to the job tab on LinkedIn, actually just a few weeks ago, we just put it on the top.

因此，如果您访问 LinkedIn 上的工作选项卡，实际上就在几周前，我们只是将其放在顶部。

So you don't have to go to the specific job and find it, you can just start there and engage with it.

因此，您不必去特定的工作并找到它，您可以从那里开始并参与其中。

Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

Just to give a quick plug to a future podcast that's coming out, there's this book called Never Search Alone, that we're going to have the author on the podcast soon.

为了快速介绍一下未来即将推出的播客，有一本名​​为《Never Search Alone》的书，我们很快就会在播客上邀请作者。

And it's all about the same idea of having a buddy that helps you search for a job.

这与拥有一个可以帮助您寻找工作的好友的想法是一样的。

Tomer Cohen: Yeah.

托默·科恩：是的。

When I think about the future of AI in the sense of belief, that relationship is going to be sacred, the relationship between AI and the human is going to be .

当我从信仰的角度思考人工智能的未来时，这种关系将是神圣的，人工智能与人类之间的关系将是……。

Do you know what Nomophobia means?

你知道无手机恐惧症是什么意思吗？

Lenny Rachitsky: Nomophobia.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：无手机恐惧症。

No. Being afraid of something.

不，是害怕某事。

Tomer Cohen: It's the anxiety of being away from your phone.

托默·科恩：这是因为远离手机而产生的焦虑。

Tomer Cohen: I think we all.

托默·科恩：我想我们都是。

I think we're in for AI-nophobia at that point, where you're going to get to a point where AI is going to feel so intimate, so personal that it would actually feel concerning to you to be away from it.

我认为我们已经陷入了对人工智能的恐惧症，你会感觉人工智能如此亲密、如此个人化，以至于你实际上会因为远离它而感到担忧。

Lenny Rachitsky: Oh man, there reminds me of Friend.com, which just launched in a really fun, I don't know if you saw Friend.com, their launch video.

Lenny Rachitsky：天啊，这让我想起了 Friend.com，它刚刚推出，非常有趣，我不知道你是否看过 Friend.com，他们的发布视频。

Lenny Rachitsky: Oh, man.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：哦，伙计。

Check out Friend.com.

查看 Friend.com。

It's like a digital friend that just is with you all the time and you're talking to him and it's an AI.

它就像一个数字朋友，一直在你身边，你可以和他说话，它是一个人工智能。

Tomer Cohen: Oh, we're just getting started.

托默·科恩：哦，我们才刚刚开始。

There's going to be, we're in for incredible revolution there.

那里将会发生令人难以置信的革命。

Lenny Rachitsky: I'm excited and scared at the same time.

Lenny Rachitsky：我既兴奋又害怕。

Tomer, thank you so much for being here.

托默，非常感谢你来到这里。

This was amazing.

这太棒了。

You're awesome.

你太棒了。

Two final questions.

最后两个问题。

Where can folks check out stuff that you're working on?

人们可以在哪里查看您正在开发的内容？

You have a course also, you have a podcast, so just give people a sense of where to find that.

你也有一门课程，你有一个播客，所以只要让人们知道在哪里可以找到它。

Tomer Cohen: Awesome.

托默·科恩：太棒了。

So obviously I'm on LinkedIn, reach out anytime.

显然我在 LinkedIn 上，请随时联系我。

I read everything people send to me.

我阅读了人们发给我的所有内容。

I don't always reply to everything, but I read everything sent to me.

我并不总是回复所有内容，但我会阅读发送给我的所有内容。

And then if you want to go deep on AI first, I have two courses, they're free.

如果你想先深入了解人工智能，我有两门课程，它们是免费的。

I think it's a phenomenal way for you to build or starting to build your expertise, especially if you're in product.

我认为这对于你建立或开始建立你的专业知识来说是一种非凡的方式，特别是如果你从事产品工作的话。

It's a great way to go deeper and not just stay on the high level parts of things.

这是深入研究而不是仅仅停留在事物的高层次部分的好方法。

Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

We'll link to all those things in the show notes.

我们将链接到演出笔记中的所有这些内容。

Tomer, thank you so much for being here.

托默，非常感谢你来到这里。

Tomer Cohen: Lenny.

托默·科恩：莱尼。

Thank you.

谢谢。

It's our pleasure.

这是我们的荣幸。

Lenny Rachitsky: Bye everyone.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：大家再见。

Thank you so much for listening.

非常感谢您的聆听。

If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.

如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at Lennyspodcasts.com.

您可以在 Lennyspodcasts.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。