Billion dollar failures, and billion dollar success | Tom Conrad (Quibi, Pandora, Pets.com, Zero)

Tom Conrad: There's this belief that everybody needs to be a founder.

汤姆·康拉德：人们相信每个人都需要成为创始人。

I think, in some ways, our industry would be much better off if there were fewer founders.

我认为，在某些方面，如果创始人更少，我们的行业会好得多。

There's an entire category of smart, creative, hardworking, talented, borderline visionary people who can raise that $2 million seed and go off and build some stupid company that's never going to go anywhere.

有一类聪明、有创造力、勤奋、有才华、有远见的人可以筹集到 200 万美元的种子，然后建立一些永远不会有任何进展的愚蠢公司。

That would be so much better off finding a team that needs their skillset and working on a problem that has a mathematical formula that's going to win on any metric.

如果找到一个需要他们技能的团队，并解决一个具有在任何指标上都能获胜的数学公式的问题，那就更好了。

Whatever metric you care about.

无论您关心什么指标。

You want the acclaim of your peers, you want financial reward, you want outside impact on culture, whatever the thing is that gets you out of bed every morning, you can achieve that in collaboration with others.

你想要得到同行的赞誉，你想要经济回报，你想要对文化产生外部影响，无论是什么让你每天早上起床，你都可以通过与他人合作来实现这一目标。

You don't have to be the person that raises the seed round.

您不必是筹集种子轮的人。

Speaker 1: Today, my guest is Tom Conrad.

演讲者 1：今天，我的嘉宾是汤姆·康拉德。

Tom was an engineer at Apple, CTO of Pandora, which he helped take from zero to 80 million users.

Tom 是 Apple 的一名工程师，也是 Pandora 的首席技术官，他帮助 Pandora 用户从零增长到 8000 万。

He's also VP of product at Snap, where he was the right-hand man to Evan Spiegel for two years.

他还是 Snap 的产品副总裁，曾担任埃文·斯皮格尔 (Evan Spiegel) 的得力助手两年。

He's been on the Board of Sonos for over seven years.

他在 Sonos 董事会任职已超过七年。

He was also part of two infamous product failures, Quibi, where he was chief product officer, which raised over $2 billion and died less than a year after launch.

他还参与了两个臭名昭著的产品失败事件，其中他担任首席产品官的 Quibi 筹集了超过 20 亿美元资金，并在推出后不到一年就夭折了。

Speaker 1: He was also a senior engineering leader at Pets.com, which famously went from nothing to a public company, to completely out of business in 19 months.

演讲者 1：他还是 Pets.com 的高级工程领导者，该公司因在 19 个月内从一无所有到上市公司而彻底破产而闻名。

Today, Tom is the CEO of Zero Longevity Science, which is on a mission to extend the lifespan and the health span of the human race.

如今，汤姆是零长寿科学公司的首席执行官，该公司的使命是延长人类的寿命和健康寿命。

In our conversation, we dig into what Tom's learned from these famous product failures, also, what he's learned from the many product successes.

在我们的谈话中，我们深入探讨了汤姆从这些著名的产品失败中学到了什么，以及他从许多成功的产品中学到了什么。

Tom also shares what he's learned about how to pick where to go work and what to avoid.

汤姆还分享了他所学到的关于如何选择去哪里工作以及应该避免什么的知识。

How important understanding the math formula of the business model is.

理解商业模式的数学公式是多么重要。

Also, lessons on burnout and health and leadership and contrarian corner.

此外，还有关于倦怠、健康、领导力和逆向思维的课程。

With that, I bring you Tom Conrad, after a short word from our sponsors.

在我们的赞助商简短致辞之后，我为您带来了汤姆·康拉德 (Tom Conrad)。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Coda.

莱尼：这一集是由 Coda 为您带来的。

You've heard me talk about how Coda is the doc that brings it all together and how it can help your team run smoother and be more efficient.

您已经听过我谈论 Coda 是如何将所有内容整合在一起的文档，以及它如何帮助您的团队运行得更顺畅、更高效。

I know this firsthand because Coda does that for me.

我直接知道这一点，因为 Coda 为我做到了这一点。

I use Coda every day to wrangle my newsletter content calendar, my interview notes for podcasts, and to coordinate my sponsors.

我每天都使用 Coda 来整理我的时事通讯内容日历、播客采访笔记，并协调我的赞助商。

More recently, I actually wrote a whole post on how Coda's product team operates.

最近，我实际上写了一篇关于 Coda 产品团队如何运作的文章。

Lenny: Within that post, they shared a dozen templates that they use internally to run their product team.

Lenny：在那篇文章中，他们分享了十几个内部使用的模板来管理他们的产品团队。

Including managing the roadmap, their OKI process, getting internal feedback, and essentially their whole product development process is done within Coda.

包括管理路线图、OKI 流程、获取内部反馈，基本上他们的整个产品开发流程都是在 Coda 内完成的。

If your team's work is spread out across different documents and spreadsheets and a stack of workflow tools, that's why you need Coda.

如果您的团队的工作分散在不同的文档和电子表格以及一堆工作流程工具中，这就是您需要 Coda 的原因。

Coda puts data in one centralized location regardless of format, eliminating roadblocks that can slow your team down.

Coda 将数据放在一个集中位置，无论其格式如何，消除了可能拖慢团队速度的障碍。

Lenny: Coda allows your team to operate on the same information and collaborate in one place.

Lenny：Coda 允许您的团队在一个地方处理相同的信息并进行协作。

Take advantage of this special limited time offer just for startups.

利用这一专为初创公司提供的特殊限时优惠。

Sign up today at coda.io/lenny and get a thousand dollars startup credit on your first statement.

立即在 coda.io/lenny 上注册，并在您的第一份声明中获得一千美元的启动信用。

That's C-O-D-A.io/lenny to sign up and get a startup credit of $1,000.

注册 C-O-D-A.io/lenny 即可获得 1,000 美元的启动资金。

Coda.io/lenny.

Coda.io/lenny。

Speaker 1: You fell in love with building products for a reason, but sometimes the day-to-day reality is a little different than you imagined.

演讲者 1：您爱上构建产品是有原因的，但有时日常现实与您想象的有点不同。

Instead of dreaming up big ideas, talking to customers and crafting a strategy, you're drowning in spreadsheets and roadmap updates, and you're spending your days basically putting out fires.

您没有梦想出伟大的想法，与客户交谈并制定策略，而是淹没在电子表格和路线图更新中，并且您的时间基本上都花在救火上。

A better way is possible.

更好的方法是可能的。

Introducing Jira Product Discovery, the new prioritization and road mapping tool built for product teams by Atlassian.

隆重推出 Jira Product Discovery，这是 Atlassian 为产品团队构建的全新优先级划分和路线图绘制工具。

Speaker 1: With Jira Product Discovery, you can gather all your product ideas and insights in one place and prioritize confidently, finally replacing those endless spreadsheets.

演讲者 1：借助 Jira Product Discovery，您可以将所有产品创意和见解收集到一处，并自信地确定优先顺序，最终取代那些无休无止的电子表格。

Create and share custom product roadmaps with any stakeholder in seconds.

在几秒钟内创建并与任何利益相关者共享自定义产品路线图。

It's all built on Jira where your engineering team's already working.

这一切都是基于 Jira 构建的，您的工程团队已经在 J​​ira 上工作。

True collaboration is finally possible.

真正的合作终于成为可能。

Great products are built by great teams, not just engineers.

伟大的产品是由伟大的团队打造的，而不仅仅是工程师。

Sales support, leadership, even Greg from Finance.

销售支持、领导力，甚至来自财务部门的格雷格。

Speaker 1: Anyone that you want can contribute ideas, feedback, and insights in Jira Product Discovery for free.

演讲者 1：任何您想要的人都可以免费在 Jira Product Discovery 中贡献想法、反馈和见解。

No catch.

没有捕获。

It's only $10 a month for you.

你每个月只需 10 美元。

Say goodbye to your spreadsheets and the never ending alignment efforts.

告别电子表格和无休止的对齐工作。

The old way of doing product management is over.

旧的产品管理方式已经结束。

Rediscover what's possible with Jira product discovery.

重新发现 Jira 产品发现的可能性。

Try it for free at atlassian.com/lenny.

请访问 atlassian.com/lenny 免费试用。

That's atlassian.com/lenny.

这是 atlassian.com/lenny。

Lenny: Tom, thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast.

莱尼：汤姆，非常感谢你来到这里，欢迎来到播客。

Tom Conrad: Thank you.

汤姆·康拉德：谢谢。

It's so fun that I get to be a part of this.

这太有趣了，我能成为其中的一部分。

Lenny: I thought it'd be fun to start with a story about your time at Apple and you building this now very ubiquitous feature of dragging and dropping something into a folder.

Lenny：我认为从您在 Apple 工作的故事开始会很有趣，您构建了现在非常普遍的将某些内容拖放到文件夹中的功能。

Which I saw you tweet about or talk about at a talk and the fact that it's still around.

我看到你在推特上或在一次演讲中谈到了这一点，而且事实上它仍然存在。

Can you just share that story and maybe a lesson from that experience that you've taken away?

您能分享一下这个故事以及您从这次经历中学到的教训吗？

Tom Conrad: Sure.

汤姆·康拉德：当然。

Let's see.

让我们来看看。

I was 15 years old when the Macintosh came out.

Macintosh 面世时我才 15 岁。

I remember really clearly my entire teenage years.

我记得非常清楚我的整个青少年时期。

All I wanted to do was to move from Columbus, Ohio to Cupertino and work for Apple.

我只想从俄亥俄州哥伦布搬到库比蒂诺并为苹果公司工作。

My heroes were that team of people that had written their signatures on the inside of the Macintosh.

我心目中的英雄是那些在麦金塔电脑内部写下签名的团队。

We cracked open the first Macintosh case.

我们打开了第一个 Macintosh 机箱。

You would find the signatures of the 20 people or so who worked on the Mac.

你会发现大约 20 名 Mac 工作人员的签名。

That was my only ambition, truly.

确实，这是我唯一的野心。

Tom Conrad: This was a period where no one wanted to work for Apple.

汤姆·康拉德：那是一个没有人愿意为苹果工作的时期。

That wasn't a thing.

那本来就不是一件事

It seems like maybe a little obvious today, but it wasn't an obvious ambition at all back then.

今天看来，这可能有点显而易见，但在当时，这根本不是一个明显的野心。

Anyway, I went to college.

无论如何，我上了大学。

It's all I wanted to do.

这就是我想做的一切。

Studied computer engineering at University of Michigan, and as we talk about my career, it is just over and over and over.

我在密歇根大学学习计算机工程，当我们谈论我的职业生涯时，它只是一遍又一遍。

I'm going to say an incredibly lucky thing happened.

我想说一件非常幸运的事情发生了。

The first incredibly lucky thing that happened for me in my career probably was that University of Michigan happened to be a place that Apple recruited from.

我职业生涯中发生的第一件非常幸运的事情可能是密歇根大学恰好是苹果公司招聘的地方。

Tom Conrad: I didn't know that when I chose the school, but it made it reasonably easy to connect to a hiring manager at Apple.

Tom Conrad：当我选择学校时我并不知道这一点，但这使得联系苹果公司的招聘经理变得相当容易。

I wrote an actual letter and put it in an actual envelope and put it in the mail and got an internship and drove out in my dad's Pontiac from the Midwest to California.

我写了一封真实的信，把它装在一个真实的信封里，然后寄出去，得到了一份实习机会，开着我爸爸的庞蒂亚克从中西部到加利福尼亚州。

Spent a summer interning and my last day of the internship, I was thinking about really what I wanted to do when I came back.

暑假实习，也是实习的最后一天，我在思考回来后我到底想做什么。

Hopefully came back to Apple after I graduated.

希望毕业后能回到苹果。

Tom Conrad: I had worked on a product that became shipped.

汤姆·康拉德：我曾开发过一款已发货的产品。

It was called the QuickDraw GX.

它被称为 QuickDraw GX。

It was earlier second generation rendering system for the Mac.

它是早期的第二代 Mac 渲染系统。

I'd been that team's intern for the summer.

暑假我曾是该团队的实习生。

But what I really wanted to do is I wanted to work on the Finder.

但我真正想做的是开发 Finder。

This is the only thing in the whole world I really wanted to do.

这是全世界我唯一真正想做的事情。

I went and found Ron Lichty, who is the manager of the Finder team and said, "I graduate in 10 months.

我找到了 Finder 团队的经理 Ron Lichty，他说：“我还有 10 个月就毕业了。

I'd love to be a part of your team."

我很乐意成为你们团队的一员。”

Tom Conrad: I think he was like, why are you coming and talking to me now?

汤姆·康拉德：我想他当时的反应是，你为什么现在过来跟我说话？

You're literally going back to Michigan tomorrow.

明天你就真的要回密歇根了。

I go back to Michigan in May, the phone rings and Ron says, "The college recruiting department just told me that I have a college hiring rep and if I don't use it by tomorrow, I lose it." He's like, "I can't even interview you, you can't meet the team, but you're basically a freebie for me.

我五月份回到密歇根州，电话铃响了，罗恩说：“大学招聘部门刚刚告诉我，我有一个大学招聘代表，如果我明天不使用它，我就会失去它。”他说，“我什至不能采访你，你不能见到团队，但你对我来说基本上是免费的。

Do you want this job?"

你想要这份工作吗？”

Tom Conrad: Just insanely lucky moment, got this job.

汤姆·康拉德：得到这份工作真是太幸运了。

I get to Apple in the summer of 1992 and I have a laundry list of things that I would like to do to make the Finder more usable.

我于 1992 年夏天加入 Apple，我列出了一系列我想做的事情，以提高 Finder 的可用性。

I remember sitting in Ron's office and saying, "At the grocery store, when you're carrying bags of groceries out, the door's automatically open for you?

我记得坐在罗恩的办公室里说：“在杂货店，当你提着一袋袋的杂货出去时，门会自动为你打开吗？

I think the Finder should do the same thing.

我认为 Finder 也应该做同样的事情。

When you're dragging an icon around and you want to put it in a folder, you should be able to hover maybe over the folder icons and drill down into the file system to get to where you're going.

当您拖动图标并希望将其放入文件夹中时，您应该能够将鼠标悬停在文件夹图标上并深入到文件系统以到达您要去的位置。

Tom Conrad: Then when you drop the file, all of the folders that opened up between you and your source and your destination would close for you." Ron thought that was a fine idea, so that was the way Apple worked in those days.

汤姆·康拉德：然后，当您删除文件时，您与来源和目的地之间打开的所有文件夹都会为您关闭。”罗恩认为这是个好主意，所以这就是当时苹果公司的运作方式。

I just went off and started coding that up.

我刚刚开始编写代码。

I got to the point late one night, two in the morning at Apple, no one else was there, where I needed some kind of animation to indicate that the folder was about to open.

一天深夜，凌晨两点，我在苹果公司，没有其他人在那里，我需要某种动画来表明该文件夹即将打开。

Tom Conrad: I'm certainly not an animator and I certainly wasn't going to do anything thoughtful in the middle of the night.

汤姆·康拉德：我当然不是动画师，我当然不会在半夜做任何深思熟虑的事情。

I just wrote some code that blinked the folder, like selected unselected, selected unselected five times and thought, oh, I'll email one of the really talented visual designers to do something much more interesting.

我只是编写了一些使文件夹闪烁的代码，例如选择未选择、选择未选择五次，然后想，哦，我会向一位真正有才华的视觉设计师发送电子邮件，让他做一些更有趣的事情。

Long story short, apple finally shipped that feature four years later.

长话短说，四年后，苹果终于推出了该功能。

Sat in the source code repository forever while we did other things.

当我们做其他事情时，永远坐在源代码存储库中。

Tom Conrad: When it shipped four years later, it blinked five times.

汤姆·康拉德：四年后发货时，它闪烁了五次。

Roll the clock forward six or seven years, Mac plus 10 comes out, entirely new Finder rewritten from scratch.

时间向前拨动六七年，Mac plus 10问世，全新的Finder从头开始重写。

No spring-loaded folders anywhere to be seen.

到处都看不到弹簧文件夹。

People complained about it.

人们对此有所抱怨。

It got re-implemented.

它被重新实施。

All of the code, brand new.

所有代码，全新。

Folder blinks five times when you hover over it.

当您将鼠标悬停在文件夹上时，文件夹会闪烁五次。

Roll the clock forward another decade, IOS comes along and they added folders.

时间再向前推进十年，IOS 出现了，他们添加了文件夹。

When you drag an icon around, it blinks a few times.

当您拖动图标时，它会闪烁几次。

Tom Conrad: I'm not sure what the point of this story is other than maybe it's something about, I think we all do this as designers and product people.

汤姆·康拉德：我不确定这个故事的重点是什么，除了可能是关于，我认为我们作为设计师和产品人员都这样做。

We take these shortcuts that we think that we'll go back later and clean up.

我们采取了这些我们认为稍后会返回并清理的捷径。

Sometimes, it's literally been 30 years that little design detail lingers three implementations later and now it's just a part of the way that these Apple products work.

有时，实际上已经过了 30 年，在三个实现之后，几乎没有什么设计细节存在，而现在它只是这些 Apple 产品工作方式的一部分。

Pretty bizarre.

相当奇怪。

Lenny: As you were talking, I'm on a Mac right now recording this and I just did it just to make sure it's still there and it is indeed still there.

Lenny：正如你所说，我现在正在 Mac 上录制这个，我这样做只是为了确保它仍然在那里，而且确实还在那里。

I think it blinks three times and then just opens up for you.

我想它会闪烁三下然后就为你打开。

Lenny: Full engineers got royalties on features they build that continue to live on in our product.

Lenny：全职工程师获得了他们构建的功能的版税，这些功能继续存在于我们的产品中。

Tom Conrad: Okay, I'll tell you just one other little thing to center you in time about what the Finder was like in 1992.

Tom Conrad：好的，我会告诉你另一件小事，以便让你及时了解 Finder 在 1992 年的情况。

We didn't get royalties, but our names were in the About box.

我们没有获得版税，但我们的名字出现在“关于”框中。

You would go to About the Finder and the seven of us, there were seven engineers at Apple that worked on The Finder.

你可以去关于 Finder 和我们七个人，苹果有七位工程师参与了 Finder 的工作。

Our names would scroll by the Finder, copyright 1992, yada, yada, yada, one name after another.

我们的名字会在 Finder 中滚动，版权所有 1992，yada，yada，yada，一个又一个的名字。

Totally different era.

完全不同的时代。

Lenny: It feels like you got what you wanted with the name scribbled on the motherboard.

Lenny：感觉就像你得到了你想要的，名字就写在主板上了。

Tom Conrad: For sure.

汤姆·康拉德：当然。

I've gotten a lot of the things I wanted as a kid.

我已经得到了很多我小时候想要的东西。

Lenny: Along the same lines, I want to talk a bit about picking where to go work.

莱尼：同样，我想谈谈选择去哪里工作的问题。

Clearly you had a sense you wanted to go work at Apple.

显然你有一种想去苹果工作的感觉。

Over your career, you've landed at a lot of really successful places.

在您的职业生涯中，您已经取得了很多真正成功的成就。

You've also landed at a lot of very famous failures that we're going to talk about.

您还遇到了许多我们将要讨论的非常著名的失败。

What advice would you give people for helping them pick where to go work based on your experience?

根据您的经验，您会给人们什么建议来帮助他们选择去哪里工作？

Tom Conrad: When I was a kid, my ambition to work at Apple was entirely about the product, so probably that version of me would say, find a product that you're passionate about and go spend your time and energy on that thing.

汤姆·康拉德：当我还是个孩子的时候，我在苹果工作的雄心完全是关于产品，所以那个版本的我可能会说，找到一个你热爱的产品，然后把你的时间和精力花在它上面。

Pretty quickly you learn that an awful lot of your development and day-to-day satisfaction really comes from the people that you get to collaborate with.

很快您就会发现，您的发展和日常满意度的很大一部分实际上来自于与您合作的人。

Can you learn from them?

你能向他们学习吗？

Do you like them?

你喜欢他们吗？

Do they challenge you in the right ways?

他们是否以正确的方式挑战你？

Tom Conrad: Do they give you latitude in the right ways?

汤姆·康拉德：他们是否以正确的方式给予你自由？

It's so much about not just what, but who.

这不仅仅是关于什么，而是关于谁。

For a very long time, my advice would've been entirely in the category of life, find something that you love with people that you think are amazing and the rest will take care of itself.

在很长一段时间里，我的建议完全是在生活的范畴内，找到你喜欢的东西，和你认为很棒的人在一起，剩下的就会水到渠成。

Interestingly, I have been lucky enough to have some things that were successful on the metrics, get talked about the most, big audiences, big financial return, et cetera, et cetera.

有趣的是，我很幸运能够拥有一些在指标上成功的东西，被谈论最多的东西，大量的观众，巨大的财务回报，等等。

I've also worked on some things that were really notable disasters.

我还从事过一些真正引起关注的灾难的事情。

When I look back on my career and think about the things that I've done, my professional satisfaction is not well correlated with those external metrics and very, very coordinated with do I love the thing we were building and do I love the people I was working with?

当我回顾我的职业生涯并思考我所做的事情时，我的职业满意度与这些外部指标并没有很好的相关性，而且与我是否喜欢我们正在构建的东西以及我是否喜欢与我一起工作的人非常非常协调？

Lenny: Following the thread of the people.

莱尼：跟随人民的脚步。

I think one of the hardest things is really knowing what the people are like until you join.

我认为最困难的事情之一就是在你加入之前真正了解人们是什么样的。

I think as a chief product officer joining or VP of product, you have a lot of time that you spend with the team.

我认为作为首席产品官或产品副总裁，你会花很多时间与团队在一起。

Most people don't.

大多数人都没有。

They have an interview and then they're like, all right, I got to make a decision.

他们接受采访，然后他们说，好吧，我必须做出决定。

Do you have any advice for how to help people get a sense if the people are the kind of people they want to work with?

对于如何帮助人们了解他们是否是他们想要与之共事的人，您有什么建议吗？

Tom Conrad: I think people are really, really good at this.

汤姆·康拉德：我认为人们真的非常擅长这一点。

Every single time I've taken a job where it turned out that I was working with people who had a different set of values or working styles than I had, I knew.

我知道，每当我接受一份工作时，我发现与那些有着与我不同价值观或工作方式的人一起工作。

You tell yourself that, at least in my case, I tell myself a story about why the thing I suspect might be the case isn't the case.

你告诉自己，至少就我而言，我给自己讲了一个故事，说明为什么我怀疑的事情可能是这样，但事实并非如此。

But you do this in your personal life all the time.

但你在个人生活中一直这样做。

You meet people out at dinner, so you get seated next to them at some industry event or something, and sometimes you come home and say to your partner, oh my gosh, the person next to me was just the worst.

你在晚餐时遇到了一些人，所以你在一些行业活动或其他活动中坐在他们旁边，有时你回家对你的伴侣说，哦，天哪，我旁边的人是最糟糕的。

Then sometimes you're like, I think I made a permanent lifelong connection with this total stranger who just happened to sit next to me.

有时你会想，我想我和这个恰好坐在我旁边的陌生人建立了永久的终生联系。

Lenny: It's a very simple piece of advice that I think people don't fully appreciate is just trust your instinct, trust your gut.

莱尼：这是一个非常简单的建议，我认为人们没有完全理解只是相信你的直觉，相信你的直觉。

Just pay attention to what comes up when you're around people at a certain company.

只要注意当你和某家公司的人在一起时会发生什么。

Okay, you brought up this phrase of notable disasters, and I want to talk about that.

好吧，你提到了“重大灾难”这个词，我想谈谈这个。

You've worked at two of the most famous notable disasters of product companies, pets.com and Quibi.

您曾参与过两家最著名的产品公司灾难：pets.com 和 Quibi。

I think it's really rare someone sees the inside of so much hype and then such a fall at a company.

我认为很少有人能看到一家公司如此大肆宣传，然后又遭遇如此惨败的内部情况。

I just want to spend some time in these two areas.

我只是想在这两个领域花一些时间。

Maybe the way to set it up is, what's a lesson you took away from each of these two experiences that you've taken with you to future work and maybe advice you share with people?

也许设置它的方法是，你从这两次经历中汲取的教训是什么，并带到你未来的工作中，或者你与人们分享的建议是什么？

Tom Conrad: Probably the biggest lesson, it's not really about the specifics of the business.

汤姆·康拉德：这可能是最大的教训，这与业务的具体情况无关。

The biggest lesson really is these things make you better.

最大的教训确实是这些事情让你变得更好。

In some instances, actually, I think in both instances they became dominoes that opened doors for me in my own ambition and my own professional life that maybe just wouldn't have opened at all if I hadn't gone to those companies and learned those things and had those experiences.

实际上，在某些情况下，我认为在这两种情况下，它们都成为多米诺骨牌，为我自己的抱负和职业生涯打开了大门，如果我没有去那些公司，学习那些东西并拥有那些经验，这些大门可能根本不会打开。

Frankly, even in the case of pets.com, even the high profile nature of it.

坦率地说，即使是 pets.com，即使是它的高调性质也是如此。

Tom Conrad: I could have worked at one of a thousand E-commerce websites in 1999.

Tom Conrad：1999 年我本可以在一千个电子商务网站之一工作。

When I went on to some subsequent job interview or something and talked about my experience, they were like, I never heard of the thing that you worked on.

当我继续参加后续的工作面试或其他什么并谈论我的经历时，他们就像，我从未听说过你所做的事情。

But everybody certainly heard about pets.com.

但每个人肯定都听说过 pets.com。

It's a pretty funny example too, of how some struggles are timeless.

这也是一个非常有趣的例子，说明有些斗争是如何永恒的。

That was 23, 24 years ago now.

那是23、24年前的事了。

While as a leadership team, we made I'm sure all kinds of mistakes.

作为一个领导团队，我确信我们犯了各种各样的错误。

Tom Conrad: One of the things that happened was that there were three overfunded pet E-commerce sites.

汤姆·康拉德：发生的事情之一是三个宠物电子商务网站资金过剩。

We all raised in excess of $50 million, which is a tremendous amount of money now.

我们总共筹集了超过 5000 万美元，这对于现在来说是一笔巨款。

It was a tremendous amount of money then.

那时这是一笔巨款。

We all thought it was a zero-sum game.

我们都认为这是一场零和游戏。

That as one player started to spend on promotion or to spend irrationally on national broadcast television advertising, we all did.

当一名球员开始在促销上花钱或在全国广播电视广告上不合理地花钱时，我们所有人都这样做了。

It became this unwinnable arms race.

这变成了一场无法获胜的军备竞赛。

There is, I think, a fundamental lesson about having an excess of investment can be its own albatross.

我认为，一个基本的教训是，过度投资本身也可能成为负担。

Or lead you to make decisions that maybe would be unwise.

或者引导你做出可能不明智的决定。

Then of course, it's just like timing is really important.

当然，时机确实很重要。

Chewy is a online pet store worth $9 billion today.

Chewy 是一家如今价值 90 亿美元的在线宠物商店。

They were a private company and bought by PetSmart and then spun back out.

他们是一家私人公司，被 PetSmart 收购，然后又剥离出来。

But when they were bought by PetSmart, they were acquired for three billion dollars.

但当它们被 PetSmart 收购时，却以 30 亿美元的价格收购。

Biggest E-commerce acquisition of all time.

有史以来最大的电子商务收购。

Well, I think it's probably unfair to compare Chewy who executed exceptionally well over a decade, grew their business brick by brick and turned it into something really remarkable.

嗯，我认为对 Chewy 进行比较可能是不公平的，Chewy 十多年来表现出色，业务一砖一瓦地发展，并将其变成了真正了不起的东西。

Tom Conrad: To pets.com, which was in a very, very different moment in time and tried to go to market in a really different way.

Tom Conrad：到 pets.com，它正处于一个非常非常不同的时刻，并试图以一种非常不同的方式进入市场。

The critique that is often leveled at pets.com, or at least at the time, was like, this is just a stupid business.

pets.com 上经常受到的批评，或者至少在当时，是这样的：这只是一个愚蠢的生意。

They're shipping dog food around.

他们正在到处运送狗粮。

You could never make that work.

你永远不可能做到这一点。

That's just wrong.

那是错误的。

You absolutely can make it work.

你绝对可以让它发挥作用。

Probably can't make it work when 80% of the country on the internet is still on dial up.

当全国 80% 的互联网仍然采用拨号方式时，可能无法使其发挥作用。

It was really, really early.

时间真的非常非常早。

Lenny: I saw a stat, I think you shared somewhere, that you took pets.com from nothing to a public company to completely out of business in 19 months.

莱尼：我看到一个统计数据，我想您在某处分享过，您在 19 个月内将 pets.com 从无到有变成了一家上市公司，最后完全破产。

Tom Conrad: Yeah, I think that's about right.

汤姆·康拉德：是的，我认为这是正确的。

The other thing that's forgotten in the tale is that we actually didn't go bankrupt.

故事中被遗忘的另一件事是我们实际上并没有破产。

We shut the company down and returned the remaining balance to the investors, which no public company had ever done before.

我们关闭了公司，并将剩余余额返还给投资者，这是以前没有一家上市公司做过的。

The leadership team just reached the conclusion that given the way market conditions had evolved, there was just no way we were going to be able to get more capital into the company.

领导团队刚刚得出结论，鉴于市场状况的发展方式，我们根本无法为公司获得更多资本。

It was a company that required additional investment to get to profitability.

这是一家需要额外投资才能实现盈利的公司。

It was better to wind down early, take the money that we had in the bank and get it back to investors than to just spend every last penny on what was a fruitless attempt to salvage it.

最好是早点结束，把我们存在银行的钱拿回给投资者，而不是花光最后一分钱，进行徒劳的挽救。

Lenny: Did not know that.

莱尼： 不知道。

Let's talk about Quibi.

我们来谈谈基比。

What went wrong there?

那里出了什么问题？

Do you think there was a path to Quibi having worked out?

您认为 Quibi 有一条可行的道路吗？

Any big lessons that you took away from that experience that you bring with you?

您从这次经历中学到了什么重要的教训吗？

Tom Conrad: The miraculous thing about Quibi for me was it re-lit my enthusiasm for the industry for doing this work.

Tom Conrad：Quibi 对我来说神奇之处在于它重新点燃了我对这个行业从事这项工作的热情。

I had left in, I think it was December of 2018, and I thought that maybe I was just done making software.

我已经离开了，我想那是 2018 年 12 月，我想也许我刚刚完成了软件制作。

I had done it for a really long time, for 25 years or something.

我已经这样做了很长一段时间，25 年左右。

I had changed a lot.

我改变了很多。

The industry had changed a lot.

这个行业发生了很大变化。

I thought maybe I just didn't have the same passion for it that I had a decade before.

我想也许我只是没有十年前那样的热情了。

It also seemed like maybe it'd be fun to have another chapter of my life that was just completely different.

似乎如果我的人生能翻开完全不同的篇章，也许会很有趣。

Tom Conrad: I had a whole list of things that I thought I might want to do.

汤姆·康拉德：我列出了一整套我认为自己可能想做的事情。

They're ridiculous.

他们太荒谬了。

It's like maybe I want to be a pastry chef.

就像我想成为一名糕点师一样。

Maybe I want to be a landscape photographer.

也许我想成为一名风景摄影师。

Maybe I want to learn to make bad music to put up on SoundCloud or something.

也许我想学习制作糟糕的音乐并将其发布到 SoundCloud 或其他东西上。

Really the only thing they had in common were they all things that I knew nothing about.

事实上，他们唯一的共同点就是他们都是我一无所知的事情。

People would be like, "Oh, you think you might want to be a pastry chef?

人们会说，“哦，你认为你可能想成为一名糕点师吗？

Do you like to bake?"

你喜欢烘焙吗？”

Tom Conrad: I'd be like, "No, I don't know anything about baking." "Oh, you like landscape photography.

汤姆·康拉德：我会说，“不，我对烘焙一无所知。” “哦，你喜欢风景摄影。

Do you take photos?" "No, I don't take photos." But I was committed to the bit, actually to the point where when Techwrench interviewed me about my departure from Snapchat, I was like, I'm out.

你拍照吗？” “不，我不拍照。”但我一直致力于这一点，实际上，当 Techwrench 采访我关于我离开 Snapchat 的事情时，我就想，我出局了。

I'm going to do something else entirely.

我要做完全不同的事情。

That story is very much out there.

这个故事已经广为流传。

But a few months after my last day at Snap, I got a call from Meg Whitman and Jeffrey Katzenberg who were starting up, it was for New TV at the time.

但在我在 Snap 工作的最后一天几个月后，我接到了梅格·惠特曼 (Meg Whitman) 和杰弗里·卡森伯格 (Jeffrey Katzenberg) 的电话，他们当时正在为 New TV 工作。

Tom Conrad: The pitch was, we're going to try to take the best of mobile and Silicon Valley and consumer tech and weld it to the best of Hollywood style content production.

汤姆·康拉德：我们的想法是，我们将尝试利用移动、硅谷和消费者技术的精华，并将其与好莱坞风格的内容制作相结合。

To build something completely bespoke and purpose made for consumption on the phone.

打造完全定制的、专门为手机消费而设计的东西。

They were looking for both technology leadership and product leadership and wanted to know if I was interested in one or both.

他们正在寻找技术领导力和产品领导力，并想知道我是否对其中之一或两者感兴趣。

I took the meeting, even though I wasn't really taking these kinds of calls from anybody, it just seemed like who's going to pass up the opportunity to have lunch with the two of them?

我参加了会议，尽管我并没有真正接到任何人的此类电话，但似乎谁会放弃与他们两个共进午餐的机会呢？

Tom Conrad: I listened to the pitch and politely declined and told them that I was going to be a pastry chef or something.

汤姆·康拉德：我听了推介并礼貌地拒绝了，并告诉他们我要成为一名糕点师什么的。

We kept doing that every couple of months for seven months.

我们每隔几个月就这样做一次，持续了七个月。

We'd go to lunch, they would give me an update on the progress they were making, and I would decline the invitation to get involved somehow.

我们会去吃午饭，他们会给我他们所取得的最新进展，而我会拒绝以某种方式参与的邀请。

Then late in that year, I went to lunch one more time, and Meg explained that they brought on someone to lead technology and they brought another person to lead product.

那年晚些时候，我再次去吃午餐，梅格解释说，他们聘请了一个人来领导技术，并聘请了另一个人来领导产品。

Tom Conrad: Both of them really truly for reasons that are completely disconnected from Quibi itself.

汤姆·康拉德：他们俩的原因与 Quibi 本身完全无关。

Both of them had left after about six weeks.

大约六周后，他们两人都离开了。

Meg's like, "We've raised all this money and we told the world that we're shipping this product in about a year.

梅格说：“我们已经筹集了所有这些资金，我们告诉全世界我们将在大约一年内推出该产品。

We got an awful lot to do, and I really could use some help.

我们有很多事情要做，我真的需要一些帮助。

I would consider it a personal favor if you were to come and spend just a couple of days a week helping." She's like, "I'll continue to look for someone who actually wants the job, but it'd be great if you could help me get this off the ground." My wife is a freelance writer, marketing strategist, and loves her life as a freelance contributor.

如果你每周只花几天时间来帮忙，我会认为这是你个人的恩惠。”她说，“我会继续寻找真正想要这份工作的人，但如果你能帮助我开始这项工作，那就太好了。”我的妻子是一名自由撰稿人、营销策略师，热爱自由撰稿人的生活。

She's like, "You should do this.

她说：“你应该这样做。

Why not?

为什么不呢？

It's two days a week.

一周有两天。

It's just a few months.

才几个月而已。

What's the worst thing that could happen?

可能发生的最糟糕的事情是什么？

Maybe you'll like it?" I'm like, "No. Here's the thing that will happen.

或许你会喜欢？”我想，“不。这就是将会发生的事情。

I won't do it two days a week.

我不会每周做两天。

It will immediately be three days, then four days, then five days, then six days.

马上就会是三天，然后是四天，然后是五天，然后是六天。

I just know myself."

我只了解我自己。”

Tom Conrad: She's like, "No." She's like, "Just on Wednesday night at six o'clock, close your Quibi laptop and be like, all they're paying me for is for Tuesday and Wednesday and then open it back up on Tuesday morning.

汤姆·康拉德：她说：“不。”她就像是，“就在周三晚上六点，关上你的 Quibi 笔记本电脑，然后说，他们付给我的只是周二和周三的费用，然后周二早上再打开它。

That's all you've got to do." Well, she's right about most things and she's wrong about this.

这就是你所要做的一切。”好吧，她在大多数事情上都是对的，但在这一点上她是错的。

I fell deeply into it right away.

我立刻就深深地陷入了其中。

It was just so fun to get to build a team from scratch and to design and build a product from scratch.

从头开始组建团队并从头开始设计和构建产品真是太有趣了。

Tom Conrad: To take advantage of all of the modern software architecture stuff that had come into being over the course of the 15 years since we had started Pandora.

Tom Conrad：利用自我们创建 Pandora 以来 15 年来出现的所有现代软件架构。

I'm embarrassed about some of what happened with Quibi for sure, but I'm super grateful for the experience.

我确实对 Quibi 发生的一些事情感到尴尬，但我非常感谢这次经历。

I just really fell in love with the industry again, and was reminded of just how rewarding it can be to build something and to try to put it out there even if you stumble pretty mightily along the way.

我真的再次爱上了这个行业，并提醒我，即使你一路上遇到了很大的挫折，构建一些东西并尝试将其推出是多么值得。

Lenny: Is there something that you took away from that experience that taught you what to try to avoid?

莱尼：你从那次经历中学到了什么，并教会了你要尽量避免什么？

What to try to pull towards?

尝试推动什么？

Tom Conrad: I think I misunderstood or misjudged companies sometimes by thinking about them really focused on the product execution.

汤姆·康拉德：我认为我有时会误解或误判公司，因为我认为他们真的专注于产品执行。

If you find an interesting problem that people care about and you solve that problem in a really beautiful, elegant, delightful way, that's 10 times better than anything else that they can get in that same space, they'll tell their friends and all the rest will take care of itself.

如果你发现了人们关心的一个有趣的问题，并且以一种非常美丽、优雅、令人愉快的方式解决了这个问题，那么这比他们在同一个空间中所能得到的任何东西都要好 10 倍，他们会告诉他们的朋友，剩下的一切都会迎刃而解。

That was always my ambition.

这一直是我的抱负。

Tom Conrad: Find a thing that I cared about building, do a great job building it really delightful way.

汤姆·康拉德：找到一个我关心构建的东西，以非常令人愉快的方式出色地构建它。

Go really deep on listening to people and their feedback and iterate your way to success and breaking through that membrane that we all strive to get across.

深入倾听人们的意见和他们的反馈，迭代你的成功之路，突破我们都努力跨越的那层膜。

The really great word of mouth.

真是口碑太好了。

But I think the thing I've come to better appreciate is that companies are also like a math problem that describes how you take investment and pour them into the equation and out the other side comes returns on some time horizon.

但我认为我越来越欣赏的是，公司也像一个数学问题，描述了你如何进行投资并将其倒入等式中，然后在一段时间内从另一端得到回报。

Tom Conrad: Yes, there are variables in that equation that are influenced by the product that you build and all of the little details and decisions that you make about making that product great.

汤姆·康拉德：是的，这个方程中存在一些变量，这些变量会受到您构建的产品以及您为使该产品变得更好而做出的所有小细节和决策的影响。

But if the equation is fundamentally broken or a big swing in and of itself, no amount of iteration and execution can get you out of the failed outputs of the broken equation.

但是，如果方程从根本上被破坏或者本身发生了很大的波动，那么无论进行多少次迭代和执行都无法使您摆脱破坏方程的失败输出。

I think Quibi made a bet that you could build an entirely bespoke content library that was sufficiently scaled to get people to subscribe and retain for a couple billion dollars.

我认为 Quibi 打赌，你可以建立一个完全定制的内容库，其规模足以让人们订阅并保留数十亿美元。

It was a huge amount of money.

这是一笔巨款。

But we made 70 shows in 18 months, which is more content than all of the major broadcast networks combined made in a single year.

但我们在 18 个月内制作了 70 个节目，这比所有主要广播网络一年内制作的内容总和还多。

It was a pretty major accomplishment.

这是一项相当重大的成就。

We made a bet that we would augment those sort of-

我们打赌我们会增强这些——

Tom Conrad: And we made a bet that we would augment those sort of episodic and serialized or Hollywood style shows with a bunch of daily content that we produce at the level of network television, nightly news, and so forth, that would be an alternative to some of the sort of daily content that you might otherwise get on YouTube.

汤姆·康拉德：我们打赌，我们会用我们在网络电视、晚间新闻等层面制作的大量日常内容来增强那些情景式、连续剧或好莱坞风格的节目，这将是您可能在 YouTube 上获得的某些日常内容的替代品。

And that was going to be about a third of the content spend.

这大约占内容支出的三分之一。

Tom Conrad: One super interesting thing that no one talks about is that all of that content was designed to be made day of or day before it aired, so there was no back catalog of it.

汤姆·康拉德：一件非常有趣的事情没有人谈论，那就是所有这些内容都是在播出当天或前一天制作的，所以没有任何回溯目录。

And it was all designed to be shot in these professional studios that we built out.

这一切都是为了在我们建造的专业工作室中拍摄而设计的。

It was really expensive, like I said, it was like a third of the investment we were going to making content, almost half the investment we were going to be making content.

正如我所说，这真的很昂贵，这相当于我们要制作内容的投资的三分之一，几乎是我们要制作内容的投资的一半。

Tom Conrad: And we launched two weeks into Covid and we couldn't make any of that content, except literally in the garages of the host's homes.

汤姆·康拉德：我们在新冠肺炎疫情发生两周后，无法制作任何内容，除了在主人家的车库里。

And so we had this thing that was supposed to seem really set apart from YouTube, that literally now was being made exactly YouTube content, which is sort of like self-produced at home with very little sort of the support infrastructure of Hollywood.

因此，我们有了这个看起来与 YouTube 完全不同的东西，现在实际上完全是 YouTube 内容，这有点像在家里自行制作，几乎没有好莱坞的支持基础设施。

Now, you can argue, I think the content on YouTube is really, really exceptional in this category, and maybe we were never going to do better than that.

现在，你可以说，我认为 YouTube 上的内容在这一类别中确实非常出色，也许我们永远不会做得比这更好。

Tom Conrad: But I think what was really fundamentally broken with Quibi was that the actual foundational equation of can you make enough premium content that's totally bespoke and made for the service and takes advantage of the nature of the phone, it is enough content to get people to sign up and retain, and can you do that for a couple billion dollars?

汤姆·康拉德：但我认为 Quibi 真正从根本上被打破的是，你能否制作足够的优质内容，这些内容完全是为服务定制的，并利用手机的性质，它足以让人们注册并保留，你能花几十亿美元做到这一点吗？

And I think the answer is no. The library has to be much, much bigger, and you have to have, like any company, you have to have sufficient time and energy to iterate on the content format itself, because our roadmap really wanted to innovate on the content format.

我认为答案是否定的。图书馆必须要大得多，而且你必须像任何公司一样，必须有足够的时间和精力来迭代内容格式本身，因为我们的路线图确实想在内容格式上进行创新。

Tom Conrad: And so I think part of what happened is pretty quickly it became clear that the math was just wrong.

汤姆·康拉德：所以我认为所发生的部分事情很快就变得很明显，数学是错误的。

It wasn't going to take 2 billion, it was going to take 6 or 8 or 10 billion.

这不会需要 20 亿，而是需要 6、8 或 100 亿。

And the risk reward profile of betting 10 billion on the format was just more than anyone could stomach.

而在这种形式上下注 100 亿美元的风险回报超出了任何人的承受能力。

Lenny: Wow.

莱尼：哇。

I really like this metaphor and this mental model of the math formula of the entire business and thinking of it that way.

我真的很喜欢这个比喻和整个企业的数学公式的心理模型，并以这种方式思考它。

I knew Covid changed the way people consumed content and that hurt.

我知道新冠疫情改变了人们消费内容的方式，这很伤人。

Quibi I think it was meant to be on the go, not sitting at home where you could watch anything you want.

Quibi 我认为它应该是在旅途中使用的，而不是坐在家里看任何你想看的东西。

But also the fact that the content couldn't be made as well, as you were hoping to make.

但事实上，内容制作得并不像您希望的那样。

Lenny: As a CPO, one of the biggest challenges is pushing back, trying to convince the founders of their mistakes, of doing what they want and just powering through it and dealing with it sometimes I guess is there anything you think you could have done looking back, or was the math formula set up for failure from the beginning and it's probably just not going to work out almost no matter what you did?

Lenny：作为一名首席产品官，最大的挑战之一是反击，试图说服创始人承认他们的错误，做他们想做的事情，然后努力完成它并处理它，有时我想回顾过去，你认为你可以做些什么，或者数学公式从一开始就注定会失败，无论你做什么，它可能都不会成功？

Tom Conrad: One of the bets was that we weren't going to just use the apparatus of Hollywood to make the content.

汤姆·康拉德：其中一个赌注是，我们不会只使用好莱坞的设备来制作内容。

In part, we are going to use the apparatus of Hollywood to market the content.

在某种程度上，我们将利用好莱坞的手段来营销内容。

So Jeffrey had recruited this incredible Rolodex of literally the world's most famous celebrities to make shows for Quibi.

因此，杰弗里招募了这个令人难以置信的名片盒，里面收录了世界上最著名的名人，为 Quibi 制作节目。

We kind of had everyone either made something for launch or was going to make something.

我们让每个人要么制作一些东西用于发布，要么制作一些东西。

Tom Conrad: And part of what they're going to do is turn up in culture and talk about their shows.

汤姆·康拉德：他们要做的一部分就是出现在文化中并谈论他们的节目。

We've heard a lot in the last six months about how hard it's to market movies because the stars can't go out and talk about the movies during the strike.

在过去的六个月里，我们听到很多关于电影营销有多么困难的消息，因为明星在罢工期间无法出去谈论电影。

Tom Conrad: There was this theory that you could apply the marketing technique of Hollywood to get 20, 30 million people into the theater on opening weekend for Quibi.

汤姆·康拉德：有一种理论认为，你可以运用好莱坞的营销技巧，在 Quibi 的首周末吸引 20、3000 万人进入影院。

And that was always a very, very audacious take, I thought.

我想，这始终是一个非常非常大胆的想法。

Uber has all the money in the world to experiment with paid user acquisition, and they're not consistently a top 10 most downloaded app in the app store.

Uber 拥有世界上所有的资金来尝试付费用户获取，但它们并不总是成为应用商店下载次数最多的应用程序前 10 名。

Tom Conrad: But the theory of Quibi, the math of Quibi, did require us to from day one land in the top 10 and stay there forever.

汤姆·康拉德：但是 Quibi 的理论、Quibi 的数学确实要求我们从第一天起就进入前十名并永远保持在那里。

The model would have worked if we could do that.

如果我们能做到这一点，这个模型就会发挥作用。

And to the Hollywood marketing apparatus, the numbers that it takes to get there felt kind of small.

对于好莱坞的营销机构来说，达到这一目标所需的人数感觉有点小。

If you can get 20 million people in to see Shrek on opening night new IP, surely you can get them to take their phone out of their pocket and download this thing and start a free trial.

如果你能让 2000 万人在新 IP 的首映之夜观看《怪物史瑞克》，那么你肯定可以让他们从口袋里掏出手机，下载这个东西并开始免费试用。

Tom Conrad: Now, those of us who have spent our life in Silicon Valley making software and really, really tried to get people to show up and download new IP in large numbers know just how hard that is.

汤姆·康拉德：现在，我们这些一生都在硅谷开发软件并真正努力让人们出现并大量下载新 IP 的人知道这有多难。

Tom Conrad: So maybe if I critique my own contribution to the math equation, maybe I should have beat the drum a little harder about just how unlikely it was that we were going to land the kind of distribution in month one that the model sort of required.

汤姆·康拉德：所以，如果我批评自己对数学方程的贡献，也许我应该更加努力地宣传我们在第一个月获得模型所需的那种分布是多么不可能。

If I had to go back and do it again, I think I would spend maybe more time investing and illuminating that aspect of the digital universe.

如果我必须回去再做一次，我想我可能会花更多的时间来投资和阐明数字宇宙的这一方面。

Lenny: That is such a good takeaway of just showing the leaders, here's the data, here's the assumptions that we're all betting on, and do you believe this can happen?

莱尼：这是向领导者展示的一个很好的收获，这是数据，这是我们都押注的假设，您相信这会发生吗？

And they probably would've said, "Yes, this will happen.

他们可能会说：“是的，这会发生。

I'm so confident."

我很有信心。”

Tom Conrad: What made it hard was, it wasn't structurally impossible.

汤姆·康拉德：困难之处在于，这在结构上并非不可能。

If you had to be bigger than any app that had ever been made, then you could probably make the case it's impossible.

如果你必须比曾经制作过的任何应用程序都大，那么你可能会证明这是不可能的。

But since you only sort of had the land in the top 10, you couldn't quite say it was impossible, you could just say it was highly improbable.

但由于你只是进入了前十名，所以你不能说这是不可能的，你只能说这是极不可能的。

Tom Conrad: And maybe one of my mistakes was, I guess I imagined that we would launch, and when the likely thing happened that we got millions of people to download the app, which we did, and then when we inevitably struggled to retain those users at high percentages, and we retained at what I think of as a good industry starting point, but we weren't setting any records on retention.

汤姆·康拉德：也许我的错误之一是，我想我想象我们会推出，当可能的事情发生时，我们有数百万人下载该应用程序，我们做到了，然后当我们不可避免地努力留住高比例的用户时，我们保留了我认为是一个良好的行业起点，但我们没有创造任何留存记录。

I just imagined that what would happen next is the thing that happens in all young companies, you would iterate.

我只是想象接下来会发生的事情是所有年轻公司都会发生的事情，你会迭代。

You would grind on the funnel until a year later, two years later, six months later, whatever it is.

你会在漏斗上苦苦挣扎，直到一年后、两年后、六个月后，无论是什么。

You figured the formula out to get people in and get them to stay and get them to retain.

你想出了让人们进来、留下来、留住的公式。

Tom Conrad: And what I didn't appreciate was just how quickly you go back to the foundational math and then the math really says you just can't.

汤姆·康拉德：我不欣赏的是你很快就回到基础数学，然后数学真的告诉你你不能。

You can't spend two years iterating your way on optimizing the funnels like you would in a startup that had a different cost structure.

你不能像在具有不同成本结构的初创公司那样花费两年时间迭代优化渠道。

In a world where you have to spend a billion dollars a year of making content, you just can't afford to not be a hit.

在一个每年必须花费 10 亿美元制作内容的世界里，你无法承受不受欢迎的后果。

Lenny: I think it's also important to just remind us, it's okay for these things to happen.

莱尼：我认为提醒我们也很重要，这些事情发生是可以的。

People take a bet, as you said, we're going to try this thing, here's our bet, here's our experiment.

人们打赌，正如你所说，我们要尝试这个东西，这是我们的赌注，这是我们的实验。

We're betting on this sort of format in this business.

我们押注于这个行业的这种形式。

We're going to raise money from investors that know they might lose all their money.

我们将从那些知道自己可能会损失所有资金的投资者那里筹集资金。

And it sometimes doesn't work out.

有时也行不通。

It's part of the game.

这是游戏的一部分。

Tom Conrad: It's certainly painful to take money from investors even if they know what they're doing and to not get them a return.

汤姆·康拉德：从投资者那里拿钱当然是痛苦的，即使他们知道自己在做什么，却得不到回报。

I feel a real responsibility to investors to do better than we did at Quibi.

我觉得投资者有真正的责任，要做得比我们在 Quibi 做得更好。

Tom Conrad: But yeah, I mean, there is a risk reward thing that goes along with these investments, and part of the reason they get all the riches on the upside is that they're going to bet on some Quibis along the way too.

汤姆·康拉德：但是，是的，我的意思是，这些投资伴随着风险回报，他们从上涨中获得所有财富的部分原因是他们也会在此过程中押注于一些 Quibis。

Lenny: So as you were talking, you said that it was called NewTV, and that sparked a memory, and I searched my email.

莱尼：所以当你说话的时候，你说它叫NewTV，这激发了我的记忆，我搜索了我的电子邮件。

And I actually got an email from a recruiter in 2018, we just kicked off a very special executive opportunity, the CPO at NewTV, a new venture in Los Angeles, with Jeffrey Katzenberg and Meg Whitman, raising a billion dollars, working with top talent.

事实上，我在 2018 年收到了一封来自招聘人员的电子邮件，我们刚刚启动了一个非常特殊的高管机会，NewTV 的 CPO，这是一家在洛杉矶的新公司，由杰弗里·卡森伯格 (Jeffrey Katzenberg) 和梅格·惠特曼 (Meg Whitman) 筹集了 10 亿美元，与顶尖人才合作。

Are you interested in exploring this opportunity?

您有兴趣探索这个机会吗？

Tom Conrad: Lenny, Lenny, Lenny.

汤姆·康拉德：莱尼，莱尼，莱尼。

Your story could have been so much different.

你的故事可能会有很大不同。

Lenny: This could have been Thomas podcast.

莱尼：这可能是托马斯的播客。

Lenny, tell me about what happened at Quibi.

莱尼，告诉我在 Quibi 发生的事情。

Lenny: I don't know.

莱尼：我不知道。

There's pros and cons.

有优点也有缺点。

They even sent this whole PDF, a TV in your pocket, NewTV.

他们甚至发送了整个 PDF，你口袋里的电视，NewTV。

Amazing.

惊人的。

All right.

好的。

I'm going to read through this and see what they pitched back in the day.

我将通读这篇文章，看看他们当天的反馈内容。

Lenny: Okay, let's move on to things that worked out really well, let's call it notable successes, other products you worked on that worked out great.

莱尼：好的，让我们继续讨论那些效果非常好的事情，让我们称之为显着的成功，你开发的其他产品效果很好。

So I'll list a few of them.

所以我将列出其中的一些。

And maybe what might be helpful is just we'll just go through each one and share what you took away from that experience, a lesson you learned from working on those products.

也许有用的是我们将逐一浏览并分享您从该经历中获得的经验，以及您从开发这些产品中学到的教训。

Lenny: The ones that come to mind for me are Snap, Pandora, Apple if we want to go there.

Lenny：如果我们想去的话，我想到的就是 Snap、Pandora、Apple。

Also, you built, I don't know exactly what you did there, but you worked on You Don't Know Jack, this game that I loved.

另外，我不知道你具体做了什么，但你参与了《你不认识杰克》，这是我喜欢的游戏。

I think if you're an elder millennial, you're just going to like, "Oh my God, I love that game." I don't even remember it exactly, but I just remember the visceral feeling of playing that game and it was so much fun.

我想如果你是一位年长的千禧一代，你就会喜欢，“天哪，我喜欢这个游戏。”我什至记不太清楚了，但我只记得玩那个游戏的发自内心的感觉，它非常有趣。

So that's cool.

所以这很酷。

I didn't know that you worked on that.

我不知道你从事这方面的工作。

And then there's also Sonos, which you're on the board.

然后还有 Sonos，您也是该公司的董事会成员。

Lenny: So whatever order you think might be most interesting, just going through those and what did you learn from that experience?

莱尼：所以无论你认为最有趣的顺序是什么，只要经历一下这些，你从这次经历中学到了什么？

Tom Conrad: I worked at Apple in the interval where Steve was gone, John Skelly, that kind of period, so System 7, System 8, Power Macintosh, that whole era.

汤姆·康拉德（Tom Conrad）：在史蒂夫·约翰·斯凯利（John Skelly）离开的那段时期，我在苹果公司工作，也就是 System 7、System 8、Power Macintosh 整个时代。

And we were doing a lot.

我们做了很多事情。

We shipped a bunch of great hardware.

我们运送了一堆很棒的硬件。

We transitioned the company from Motorola 68,000 CPUs to the Power PC architecture.

我们将公司从 Motorola 68,000 CPU 过渡到 Power PC 架构。

Tom Conrad: But, particularly in that transition, we really struggled to ship consumer software features.

汤姆·康拉德：但是，特别是在这个转变过程中，我们在交付消费者软件功能方面确实遇到了困难。

I mentioned that I wrote three LAN folders and some other consumer features in my first six months at Apple, and they shipped four years later, actually after I'd left the company.

我提到我在苹果工作的头六个月里编写了三个 LAN 文件夹和其他一些消费者功能，四年后，实际上是在我离开公司之后，它们才发布。

I was a little surprised they were still in the software repository even, candidly.

坦率地说，我有点惊讶它们仍然在软件存储库中。

Tom Conrad: But I'll tell you that one of the things culturally about Apple in that moment was, at least I felt like, a person was really rewarded if they could make a kind of broad contribution across functions.

汤姆·康拉德：但我要告诉你，当时苹果公司的文化之一是，至少我觉得，如果一个人能够在各个职能部门做出广泛的贡献，他们就会真正得到回报。

So if you were a talented software engineer, but also a thoughtful product designer, and maybe also had interesting input on product marketing, that you could build a really great reputation inside the company by playing all of those positions a little bit day to day.

因此，如果您是一位才华横溢的软件工程师，同时也是一位深思熟虑的产品设计师，并且可能对产品营销也有有趣的投入，那么您可以通过每天扮演所有这些职位来在公司内部建立真正良好的声誉。

Tom Conrad: And so when I left Apple after four years, I look back on my time, I didn't ship as much software as I had hoped, and I felt like a little bit like a professional gadfly.

汤姆·康拉德：四年后，当我离开苹果时，我回顾自己的时光，发现我并没有发布像我希望的那样多的软件，我感觉自己有点像专业的牛虻。

I was six miles wide and a centimeter deep.

我有六英里宽，一厘米深。

Tom Conrad: And I went to work for this company called Berkeley Systems.

汤姆·康拉德：我去了一家名为 Berkeley Systems 的公司工作。

In addition to You Don't Know Jack, they made a flying toaster screensaver, if you remember.

如果你还记得的话，除了《你不认识杰克》之外，他们还制作了一个会飞的烤面包机屏幕保护程序。

You remember the nineties?

你还记得九十年代吗？

Tom Conrad: And when I met them, they were picking off this game development for this trivia game, and were looking for someone to lead the technical team.

汤姆·康拉德：当我见到他们时，他们正在为这款问答游戏进行游戏开发，并正在寻找人来领导技术团队。

And so I joined as technical director for the You Don't Know Jack franchise, managed a team of engineers, and it was a completely different culture than what I was used to at Apple.

因此，我加入了“你不知道杰克”系列，担任技术总监，管理一支工程师团队，这是一种与我在苹果公司习惯的文化完全不同的文化。

Tom Conrad: It was certainly the case that I was welcome to weigh in on the game design or the marketing or some other aspect of the deliverables, but my job was to build the software on time with high quality, period.

汤姆·康拉德：当然，欢迎我参与游戏设计、营销或可交付成果的其他一些方面，但我的工作是按时高质量地构建软件。

And if I did those things, I'd be rewarded.

如果我做了这些事情，我就会得到奖励。

And if I didn't, I would not be successful.

如果我不这样做，我就不会成功。

And no amount of insightful feedback on the gameplay or the packaging, or whatever else I might want to do, was going to benefit me and my career at all.

对于游戏玩法或包装，或者我可能想做的其他任何事情，无论有多少有见地的反馈，都不会让我和我的职业生涯受益。

Tom Conrad: And it was such a blessing to be forced to go deep on something, because I spent a lot of time developing chops as an engineering manager, but I also wrote a ton of software.

汤姆·康拉德：被迫深入研究某件事真是一件幸事，因为作为一名工程经理，我花了很多时间来开发技能，但我也编写了大量的软件。

And that's really honestly when I became a software engineer.

老实说，当我成为一名软件工程师时。

My college education was insufficient to get me there, and the amount of software I wrote at Apple was insufficient to get me there.

我的大学教育不足以让我实现这一目标，而我在苹果公司编写的软件数量也不足以让我实现这一目标。

But I came out of my Berkeley Systems You Don't Know Jack experience feeling like I could really hold my own technically in a way that just wouldn't have happened.

但当我从 Berkeley Systems You Don't Know Jack 的经历中走出来时，我感觉我真的可以以一种不可能发生的方式在技术上保持自己的地位。

Tom Conrad: And so I do think that there's something to be said for a culture where there are swim lanes and people are encouraged to be really, really exceptional in their lane.

汤姆·康拉德：所以我确实认为，对于一种有泳道并且鼓励人们在自己的泳道上表现出色的文化来说，这是有道理的。

And so I feel really lucky that I stumbled into You Don't Know Jack When I did.

所以我感到非常幸运，当我偶然发现你不认识杰克时。

Tom Conrad: And it was also, I mean, it was the first thing that I worked on that had just huge cultural awareness for a couple of years.

汤姆·康拉德：我的意思是，这也是我几年来所做的第一件事，具有巨大的文化意识。

I mean, it's crazy, they're still making sequels.

我的意思是，这太疯狂了，他们还在制作续集。

It has been nearly 30 years, and there are versions of You Don't Know Jack that are in all of the stores, in the PlayStation store, in the Xbox store, in the iOS store.

已经过去近 30 年了，所有的商店、PlayStation 商店、Xbox 商店、iOS 商店中都有《你不认识杰克》的版本。

You can play new versions of You Don't Know Jack to this day.

直到今天，您还可以玩新版本的《你不认识杰克》。

It's crazy.

太疯狂了。

Lenny: Did not know that.

莱尼： 不知道。

I see the website now and it's a little different, but basically the same.

我现在看网站，有点不同，但基本是一样的。

Tom Conrad: So I'd say my lesson from You Don't Know Jack was definitely, it really does pay to get good at something and not just be a generalist.

汤姆·康拉德：所以我想说，我从《你不知道杰克》中得到的教训肯定是，擅长某件事而不仅仅是成为一名多面手确实是值得的。

Tom Conrad: And then, I mean Pandora, it wasn't quite the next thing that happened.

汤姆·康拉德：然后，我的意思是潘多拉，这并不是接下来发生的事情。

After You Don't Know Jack was Pets.com, and then after Pets.com there was nuclear winter in the industry and I worked in enterprise software for a while.

在 You Don't Know Jack 之后，Pets.com 诞生了，而在 Pets.com 之后，行业出现了核冬天，我在企业软件领域工作了一段时间。

Tom Conrad: And after nuclear winter I had this idea that I was going to build a destination for music discovery on the web.

汤姆·康拉德：核冬天之后，我有了一个想法，我要在网络上建立一个音乐发现目的地。

And I've been doing enterprise software, the consumer intranet was non-existent for those years, early aughts.

我一直在做企业软件，那些年早期消费者内部网还不存在。

Tom Conrad: But around 2004, things started to thaw a little bit and you started to hear the first signs of the companies that we came to call Web 2.0, Flickr would've been one of the early examples.

Tom Conrad：但在 2004 年左右，事情开始有所缓和，你开始听到我们称之为 Web 2.0 的公司的第一个迹象，Flickr 就是早期的例子之一。

And one of the enterprise software things I did was a personalization recommendation engine that used a vector space.

我所做的企业软件之一是使用向量空间的个性化推荐引擎。

It's like a lot of the things that we're talking about now in AI, albeit 20 years ago.

这就像我们现在谈论的人工智能领域的很多事情，尽管已经是 20 年前的事了。

Tom Conrad: And so I knew something about recommendation systems in the enterprise space, and I was super passionate about music.

汤姆·康拉德：所以我对企业领域的推荐系统有所了解，而且我对音乐非常热情。

I'm not a musician, but I was that kid in college who would corner you and be like, oh, if you like this band, I got to play this for you and with stereo until you would beg to leave.

我不是音乐家，但我是那个大学里的孩子，他会把你逼到墙角，然后说，哦，如果你喜欢这个乐队，我就得用立体声为你演奏这首歌，直到你乞求离开。

Tom Conrad: And so I had this idea that maybe I can use the internet to do that at scale, not with just one person, but with hundreds of thousands of people or millions of people maybe.

汤姆·康拉德：所以我有一个想法，也许我可以利用互联网大规模地做到这一点，不仅仅是一个人，而是数十万人或数百万人。

Introduce them to music that they would love but otherwise would miss out on.

向他们介绍他们喜欢但否则就会错过的音乐。

Tom Conrad: And I promised that I was going to tell stories about luck in my career, there's been a gazillion of them.

汤姆·康拉德：我答应过我会讲述我职业生涯中的运气故事，这样的故事有无数个。

But one really dramatic incidence of that is I was sort of biding my time to exit this enterprise software company.

但其中一个非常戏剧性的事件是，我正在等待退出这家企业软件公司的时机。

I was VP of engineering, a whole team that reported to me.

我是工程副总裁，整个团队都向我汇报。

I felt a lot of responsibility to exit in a responsible way.

我感到自己有很大的责任以负责任的方式退出。

But I was really excited about this digital music company that I was going to start.

但我对我即将创办的这家数字音乐公司感到非常兴奋。

But I wasn't telling anyone at all because I didn't want ti to get back to the team.

但我根本没有告诉任何人，因为我不想让我回到球队。

Tom Conrad: So I flew down to Los Angeles to go out to Coachella in the spring of 2004, and completely randomly physically bumped into a guy that I had gone to high school with on the polo field, and hadn't seen him in a decade.

汤姆·康拉德：2004 年春天，我飞​​到洛杉矶去参加科切拉音乐节，在马球场上完全随机地撞见了一个和我一起上高中的家伙，而且已经十年没见过他了。

And the thing that we had in common in high school was we loved music.

我们高中时的共同点是我们都热爱音乐。

And so I tell them the story of, I'm going to start this company to do personalized digital music on the internet.

所以我告诉他们这个故事，我将创办这家公司在互联网上制作个性化数字音乐。

And he said, there's this woman I work with who just left our company to move to Oakland to work for this little company called Savage Beast that are also doing something in music recommendation.

他说，和我一起工作的一位女士刚刚离开我们公司搬到奥克兰，为一家名为 Savage Beast 的小公司工作，该公司也在做音乐推荐方面的工作。

Do you want to talk to them?

你想和他们谈谈吗？

And I said, "Sure, why not?"

我说：“当然，为什么不呢？”

Tom Conrad: So I got introduced to Tim Westergren, who was the founder of Savage Beast.

汤姆·康拉德：我被介绍给蒂姆·韦斯特格伦，他是 Savage Beast 的创始人。

Savage Beast was like a seven or eight full-time employees at that point.

那时的蛮兽公司只有七八个全职员工。

They made a music recommendation engine that they licensed to other companies to put in consumer products.

他们制作了一个音乐推荐引擎，并将其授权给其他公司以放入消费产品中。

So Savage Beast's customers were Best Buy, who put it in kiosks, and AOL, who used it on the AOL Music website.

因此，Savage Beast 的客户是百思买（Best Buy）和美国在线（AOL），百思买（Best Buy）将其放置在信息亭中，而美国在线（AOL）则在 AOL 音乐网站上使用它。

And they were looking for a VP of engineering.

他们正在寻找一名工程副总裁。

And I got the offer, thought about it a little bit.

我收到了offer，稍微考虑了一下。

I declined because it was kind of this B2B2C thing and I really wanted to do something consumer and I had an idea about the app.

我拒绝了，因为这是 B2B2C 的事情，我真的想做一些消费者的事情，而且我对这个应用程序有一个想法。

Tom Conrad: And a month later, they called again and said, "We keep talking to people.

汤姆·康拉德：一个月后，他们再次打电话说：“我们一直在与人们交谈。

We really think that you're the person." And interestingly, one of the reasons they thought that I was the person is they were really impressed by the fact that I had run engineering at Pets.com.

我们真的认为你就是那个人。”有趣的是，他们认为我就是那个人的原因之一是，他们对我在 Pets.com 负责工程的事实印象深刻。

So I mean, it's just one of those things where these things do pay dividends, even when they're a disaster.

所以我的意思是，这只是这些事情确实带来红利的事情之一，即使它们是一场灾难。

Tom Conrad: And honestly, what I would really say was almost like a lapse in judgment, I said yes, even though it wasn't the product that I wanted to build.

汤姆·康拉德：老实说，我真正想说的几乎就像是判断失误，我说是的，尽管这不是我想要构建的产品。

And I won't bore you with all of the details, but 90 days later, after some typical early stage founder drama stuff, the founding head of technology and product had resigned completely unrelated to my arrival.

我不会向你讲述所有的细节，但 90 天后，在经历了一些典型的早期创始人戏剧性的事情之后，技术和产品的创始负责人辞职了，这与我的到来完全无关。

And the company had a new CEO, Joe Kennedy, and Joe had this idea for what he called the 1-Click Personal Radio.

该公司新任首席执行官乔·肯尼迪 (Joe Kennedy) 上任，乔提出了他所谓的一键式个人收音机的想法。

And Joe is a product marketer and just the best CEO in the whole world.

乔是一名产品营销人员，也是全世界最好的首席执行官。

We spent 10 years together building Pandora.

我们一起花了 10 年时间建造潘多拉。

Tom Conrad: And he sort of gave me the keys and just said, "As long as it fits the brief for 1-Click Personal Radio, it's all yours." And I got to build the team and the culture, in collaboration with him and Tim the founder, over the course of the next 10 years, and just every good thing.

汤姆·康拉德：他给了我钥匙，然后说：“只要它符合一键式个人广播的要求，它就是你的了。”在接下来的 10 年里，我必须与他和创始人蒂姆合作，建立团队和文化，以及一切美好的事情。

Tom Conrad: So I mean, there's just a million billion lessons from Pandora, and everything I am as a product leader and then an engineering leader comes from things that happen at Pandora.

汤姆·康拉德：所以我的意思是，潘多拉给了我一百万个教训，我作为产品领导者和工程领导者的一切都来自于潘多拉发生的事情。

Tom Conrad: But maybe the thing that I think of first is, I think we met our early audience in an incredibly genuine way.

汤姆·康拉德：但也许我首先想到的是，我认为我们以一种令人难以置信的真实方式遇见了我们的早期观众。

For example, when we launched the support@pandora.com was an alias for all@pandora.com.

例如，当我们启动时，support@pandora.com 是 all@pandora.com 的别名。

So if you sent a customer service request to Pandora, every single person in the company received it.

因此，如果您向 Pandora 发送客户服务请求，公司中的每个人都会收到它。

And because we made a decision to have no customer support team in the first year, the expectation was that whoever sees the request first should respond to it.

由于我们决定在第一年不设立客户支持团队，因此我们期望首先看到请求的人应该做出回应。

Tom Conrad: And so you would write to us and you would get the founder or you'd get me or you'd get the engineer who wrote the feature or you'd get the CEO.

汤姆·康拉德：所以你写信给我们，你会找到创始人，或者你会找到我，或者你会找到编写该功能的工程师，或者你会找到首席执行官。

And there were no macros to respond to commonly asked question.

并且没有宏来回答常见问题。

There was no read the FAQ.

没有阅读常见问题解答。

And there were no rules about what you could and couldn't say.

也没有任何规则规定什么可以说、什么不能说。

If the person's like, "I think this feature is stupid and broken," we would encourage people to say, "You know what?

如果这个人说，“我认为这个功能很愚蠢而且很糟糕”，我们会鼓励人们说，“你知道吗？

I think you're right and I'm really struggling to get our stupid head of product to agree with me.

我认为你是对的，我真的很难让我们愚蠢的产品主管同意我的观点。

I'm going to CC Tom and maybe we can convince him that this was a bad decision."

我要去见 CC Tom，也许我们可以让他相信这是一个糟糕的决定。”

Tom Conrad: And we did all of that because we thought one of our superpowers as a young company was that we could just engage with our audience as real human beings, not as a shiny brand that was trying to be something that we could just never be.

汤姆·康拉德：我们之所以这么做，是因为我们认为，作为一家年轻的公司，我们的超能力之一就是我们可以像真正的人一样与观众互动，而不是像一个试图成为我们永远不可能成为的闪亮品牌。

This period is where the iPod and iTunes are at the peak of their powers.

这一时期是 iPod 和 iTunes 的鼎盛时期。

And so there was no way we could sort of out-Apple Apple on the brand front.

因此，我们不可能在品牌方面超越苹果公司。

Tom Conrad: And so we were just ourselves, and I think it really, really was a catalyst for the word of mouth that developed around Pandora.

汤姆·康拉德：所以我们只是我们自己，我认为这确实是潘多拉周围口碑传播的催化剂。

And we never spent any money on paid user acquisition, literally no dollars in the entire time I was there, because people loved the product and they told their friends about it and that's how it grew.

我们从来没有在付费用户获取上花过任何钱，在我在那里的整个时间里，实际上没有花任何钱，因为人们喜欢这个产品，他们告诉他们的朋友这个产品，这就是它的增长方式。

Lenny: I saw a stat that you grew Pandora from 0 to 80 million users, from 10 employees to 3000 employees, from 0 basically to a multi-billion dollar company.

Lenny：我看到一个统计数据，Pandora 从 0 名用户增长到 8000 万用户，从 10 名员工增长到 3000 名员工，从 0 名员工成长为一家价值数十亿美元的公司。

We did those things.

我们做了那些事。

We did.: Also, I think my product stewardship in some ways set the scene for Spotify to walk through the digital streaming door and show us the exit.

我们做到了。：此外，我认为我的产品管理在某种程度上为 Spotify 迈入数字流媒体大门并为我们展示了出口奠定了基础。

So Pandora is, again, such a privilege to be able to work on something that touched and continues to touch tens of millions of people's lives every month.

因此，潘多拉再次感到非常荣幸，能够致力于每个月影响并将继续影响数千万人生活的事情。

But it's bittersweet from the standpoint that I think we had an opportunity that in some ways we misplayed.

但从我认为我们有一个机会但在某些方面我们错失了的角度来看，这真是苦乐参半。

Lenny: My mom is still a huge fan of Pandora, uses it every day for whatever choice.

Lenny：我妈妈仍然是 Pandora 的超级粉丝，每天都会用它做任何选择。

Tom Conrad: I mean, it's still going.

汤姆·康拉德：我的意思是，它仍在继续。

And the numbers are still tens of millions of people in the US listen every month.

美国每月仍有数千万听众收听。

So it's a thing.

所以这是一件事。

But yeah, it's a little sad that it didn't have quite the staying power that some of these other things that have come along since have.

但是，是的，有点遗憾的是，它没有像后来出现的其他一些东西那样具有持久力。

Lenny: Just on that topic, do you think there's something that you could have done, someone could have done?

莱尼：就这个话题而言，你认为有什么事情是你可以做的，有人可以做的吗？

Do you think there was an opportunity to become Spotify?

您认为有机会成为 Spotify 吗？

Or is it the business model and the math formula was set up in such a way that it was near impossible?

或者是商业模式和数学公式的设置方式几乎是不可能的？

Tom Conrad: One of the things that was tough for Pandora was that when we started it, digital music was a category that no investor wanted to touch.

汤姆·康拉德：对于潘多拉来说，最困难的事情之一是，当我们开始它时，数字音乐是一个没有投资者愿意触及的类别。

It was lawsuits.

这是诉讼。

There was no money to be made.

没有钱可赚。

There were relationships with the labels that were completely impossible to nurture.

与唱片公司之间的关系是完全不可能维持的。

And there had been no big outcomes.

而且没有取得什么大的成果。

I think the biggest exit in digital music when we got going was I think Yahoo had bought Musicmatch for like $400 million.

我认为，当我们开始时，数字音乐领域最大的退出是雅虎以大约 4 亿美元的价格收购了 Musicmatch。

And so that was seen as kind of the ceiling on the opportunity.

因此，这被视为机会的上限。

Tom Conrad: And along the way we found investors who believed in our vision and invested ultimately hundreds of millions of dollars in the company over its pre-public years.

汤姆·康拉德：一路走来，我们找到了相信我们愿景的投资者，并在公司上市前几年最终向公司投资了数亿美元。

But there was never investor enthusiasm for the company in the category that was anything like the investor enthusiasm that a company like Spotify enjoyed just six, seven years later, Snap enjoyed for its pre-public tenure.

但投资者对此类公司的热情从来没有像 Spotify 这样的公司在六、七年后的上市前所享有的投资者热情那样高。

Tom Conrad: And I think part of what was different for Spotify is that the comps were not...

Tom Conrad：我认为 Spotify 的部分不同之处在于，这些比较不是......

Musicmatch was 400 million, they were Pandora at 8 billion, but even above that they were Netflix at 100 billion.

Musicmatch 的播放量为 4 亿，Pandora 的播放量为 80 亿，但 Netflix 的播放量甚至更高，为 1000 亿。

And so investors just had this new sort of optimism about what you could do in subscription and in streaming, and Spotify really played that to their advantage in a way that we couldn't because we had gone public and the public market investors were still trying to figure us out.

因此，投资者对订阅和流媒体领域的前景抱有新的乐观态度，而 Spotify 确实以一种我们无法做到的方式发挥了这一优势，因为我们已经上市，而公开市场投资者仍在试图了解我们。

So we didn't have access to capital.

所以我们无法获得资本。

It was very hard for us to take the same kind of risks that Spotify took.

我们很难承担 Spotify 所承担的同样的风险。

Tom Conrad: But then I think we just completely misjudged one really important thing, which is that we were really inspired by disrupting terrestrial radio.

汤姆·康拉德：但我认为我们完全错误地判断了一件非常重要的事情，那就是我们确实受到了地面广播颠覆的启发。

Terrestrial radio is the predominant form of music consumption in the country.

地面广播是该国音乐消费的主要形式。

People spend, I can't remember the exact stats, but by minutes consumed, it's something like 10 times more music minutes a month on radio in the aughts and early tens than on owned music.

人们花费的时间，我不记得确切的统计数据，但从消耗的分钟数来看，每月在广播上播放音乐的时间大约是在自有音乐上播放的音乐时间的 10 倍。

And the advertising supported sort of radio market was a $30 billion category, and recorded music was $8 billion.

广告支持的广播市场价值 300 亿美元，录制的音乐价值 80 亿美元。

Tom Conrad: And so we had this idea that we're going to reinvent radio, and Spotify and Rdio and Apple Music and the 14 others, Rhapsody, which was Spotify before Spotify, they were all going to chase this smaller owned recorded music opportunity, and that we could be left relatively alone over here going after the less sexy but actually bigger market.

汤姆·康拉德：所以我们有这样的想法，我们要重新发明广播，Spotify、Rdio、Apple Music 和其他 14 个，Rhapsody，也就是 Spotify 之前的 Spotify，他们都会追逐这个较小的拥有的录制音乐机会，而我们可能会相对孤独地在这里追逐不那么性感但实际上更大的市场。

And I think we just got it wrong.

我认为我们只是搞错了。

It should have been obvious that inevitably all of your music in any format was going to be delivered as a stream from the cloud.

显而易见，任何格式的所有音乐都将不可避免地以流的形式从云端传输。

And that the record labels in particular, they were going to set the terms on what the structure was.

特别是唱片公司，他们将制定结构的条款。

And the structure that they preferred was the Spotify structure.

他们更喜欢的结构是 Spotify 结构。

And we operated under a different licensing...

我们在不同的许可下运营......

Tom Conrad: And we operated under a different licensing regime that they hated, that was a statutory license that we got from the government.

汤姆·康拉德：我们在他们讨厌的不同许可制度下运营，这是我们从政府获得的法定许可。

And it would've been exceptionally risky for us to come out from under the statutory license and do direct deals with the labels, but it was a requirement to play in the world that they imagined as the future, and we should have imagined as the future, too.

对于我们来说，脱离法定许可并与唱片公司进行直接交易是非常危险的，但这是在他们想象的未来世界中发挥作用的要求，我们也应该想象为未来。

And eventually, the company got around to it, but it was too late.

最终，该公司开始采取行动，但为时已晚。

Lenny: It's interesting that so much of this was rooted in that original vision that you shared of Pandora of the radio, smart radio in your pocket, personal radio that you just stayed on that track, even though there was this other track.

莱尼：有趣的是，这在很大程度上植根于你对收音机潘多拉的最初愿景，你口袋里的智能收音机，你只是留在那个轨道上的个人收音机，即使还有其他轨道。

But I think it's important to point out, you said it was seven years later.

但我认为重要的是要指出，你说那是七年后。

And I feel like there's this interesting trend with the companies you've worked at, pets.com and Pandora, that it's too early, you just come too early at these ideas.

我觉得你工作过的公司 pets.com 和 Pandora 有一个有趣的趋势，那就是现在还为时过早，你来得太早了这些想法。

And I feel like that tells me Quibi might still happen.

我觉得这告诉我 Quibi 可能仍然会发生。

There's a Quibi coming seven years from now.

七年后，Quibi 即将面世。

Tom Conrad: You know what's really funny about that?

汤姆·康拉德：你知道这有什么好笑的吗？

Just today, there's a headline about a Hollywood-produced show that's launching on Instagram Reels and TikTok that was shot vertical.

就在今天，有一个关于好莱坞制作的垂直拍摄节目即将在 Instagram Reels 和 TikTok 上推出的头条新闻。

And the headline is literally something like, "Is TikTok the new TV?" And it's pretty funny that literally, that's what Jeffrey and Meg called it when they were incubating the idea.

标题实际上是这样的：“TikTok 是新电视吗？”非常有趣的是，从字面上看，这就是杰弗里和梅格在酝酿这个想法时所说的。

I mean, I think it's pretty clear that purpose-built video for mobile looks a lot like TikTok.

我的意思是，我认为很明显，专门为移动设备打造的视频看起来很像 TikTok。

And I don't want to take anything away from all of the innovation in that space that they and the other players are driving that Quibi didn't capture in its initial product definition.

我不想剥夺他们和其他参与者正在推动的该领域的所有创新，而 Quibi 在其最初的产品定义中没有体现这些创新。

But I mean, obviously, we stare at our phones consuming video of all kinds all day every day.

但我的意思是，显然，我们每天都盯着手机观看各种视频。

So there there's definitely something there.

所以那里肯定有什么东西。

Lenny: The PDF that I mentioned that I got from the recruiter, the first page again says, "You have a TV in your pocket." So it's exactly what they're pitching.

莱尼：我提到的从招聘人员那里得到的 PDF，第一页又写着：“你的口袋里有一台电视。”这正是他们所推销的。

That's amazing.

太棒了。

All right.

好的。

I think what I've learned, I need to bet all my money on this new Quibi clone because the timing might be right.

我认为我所学到的，我需要把所有的钱都押在这个新的 Quibi 克隆上，因为时机可能是正确的。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by HelpBar by Chameleon, the free in-app universal search solution built for SaaS.

Lenny：本集由 Chameleon 的 HelpBar 为您带来，Chameleon 是为 SaaS 构建的免费应用内通用搜索解决方案。

Your help content lives outside your app and is scattered in many places, forcing users to waste time hunting for answers.

您的帮助内容位于应用程序之外，并且分散在许多地方，迫使用户浪费时间寻找答案。

HelpBar solves this.

帮助栏解决了这个问题。

It delivers answers directly inside your app and eliminates context switching.

它直接在您的应用程序内提供答案并消除上下文切换。

Users can search or ask questions to get AI- generated answers and lists of the most relevant documentation from all of your help sources, including your knowledge base, docs, blog, and video libraries.

用户可以搜索或提出问题，以从您的所有帮助来源（包括您的知识库、文档、博客和视频库）获取 AI 生成的答案和最相关文档的列表。

You can also use HelpBar to navigate your app and launch actions, such as scheduling a meeting or viewing an interactive demo.

您还可以使用 HelpBar 导航应用程序并启动操作，例如安排会议或查看交互式演示。

Lenny: The best products today use command-K for in-app search and navigation.

Lenny：当今最好的产品使用 command-K 进行应用内搜索和导航。

HelpBar makes that readily available within your app without engineering or new code.

HelpBar 可以在您的应用程序中轻松使用，无需工程或新代码。

Give users a faster and more delightful self-serve experience that reduces friction and increases in-app engagement.

为用户提供更快、更愉快的自助服务体验，减少摩擦并提高应用内参与度。

Upgrade your user experience with this modern component and supercharge your product-led motion.

使用这款现代组件升级您的用户体验，并增强您以产品为主导的运动。

Sign up for HelpBar today.

立即注册 HelpBar。

It's free and easy to set up in minutes.

它免费且易于在几分钟内完成设置。

Check it out at helpbar.ai/lenny.

请访问 helpbar.ai/lenny 查看。

That's helpbar.ai/lenny.

那是helpbar.ai/lenny。

Lenny: Let's talk about Snap briefly, and then I want to have a couple more questions.

Lenny：我们简单谈谈 Snap，然后我想再问几个问题。

Tom Conrad: At Pandora, I was the head of product and was head of engineering.

Tom Conrad：在 Pandora，我担任产品主管和工程主管。

And our CEO was brilliant, but he was a product marketer.

我们的首席执行官非常出色，但他是一名产品营销人员。

I mean, Joe was all things.

我的意思是，乔就是一切。

He was an engineer by education, and a great marketer, and a great finance person, and just such a utility player at a very, very high level across every discipline.

他是一位受过教育的工程师、一位出色的营销人员、一位出色的财务人员，而且是一位在各个学科领域都处于非常非常高水平的公用事业参与者。

But he was also really, really good at letting his team do their jobs.

但他也非常非常擅长让他的团队完成他们的工作。

He really let me run product and engineering.

他确实让我负责产品和工程。

And so not only did I have tremendous latitude to make good and bad decisions about product, I also really got a seat at the table to help lead the company.

因此，我不仅拥有巨大的自由度来对产品做出好的和坏的决定，而且我还真正获得了帮助领导公司的席位。

So rewarding, so gratifying.

如此收获，如此欣慰。

Best professional experience that one could have.

一个人可以拥有的最好的专业经验。

Tom Conrad: So I leave Pandora after a decade.

汤姆·康拉德：十年后我离开了潘多拉。

I take a year trying to figure out what I'm going to do next.

我花了一年的时间思考下一步要做什么。

But after about a year, I got introduced to Evan.

但大约一年后，我被介绍给了埃文。

And it's kind of a funny story.

这是一个有趣的故事。

A mutual friend sent this introduction over.

一位共同的朋友发来了这份介绍。

Evan immediately responded and said, "Why don't you come down to Los Angeles and have a coffee with me?" So I fly down.

Evan立即回应道：“你为什么不来洛杉矶和我一起喝杯咖啡呢？”于是我就飞下来了。

It's not clear if it's a job interview or what it is really.

目前尚不清楚这是一次工作面试还是真正的面试。

I mean, I was just lightly exploring things that were out there and was a big fan of what he was doing with Snapchat.

我的意思是，我只是稍微探索了一下现有的东西，并且非常喜欢他在 Snapchat 上所做的事情。

So I spent 45 minutes with him, and then I spent 45 minutes with the head of engineering, and another 45 minutes with the head of legal, and then they tossed me into a conference room with a dozen product designers, all in their mid to late 20s, many of which had gone to school at Stanford with Evan.

所以我花了 45 分钟和他在一起，然后我和工程主管一起呆了 45 分钟，又和法务主管一起呆了 45 分钟，然后他们把我扔进一间会议室，里面有十几位产品设计师，他们都在 20 多岁，其中许多人都和埃文一起在斯坦福大学上学。

Tom Conrad: I would come to learn all really, really, really impressive super, super talented people, but it was just 10 of us sitting around a conference table.

汤姆·康拉德：我会来学习所有非常非常非常令人印象深刻的超级、超级有才华的人，但我们只有 10 个人坐在会议桌旁。

And it wasn't really clear that they knew why they were talking to me, but we had an hour long free ranging conversation.

并不清楚他们是否知道为什么要和我说话，但我们进行了一个小时的自由对话。

And so I left, and I thought it was a totally fascinating morning, but I wasn't sure what had happened, really.

于是我离开了，我觉得这是一个非常迷人的早晨，但我不确定到底发生了什么。

It was like "Well, with these interviews, it all seemed very ad hoc.

就像“嗯，通过这些采访，一切看起来都非常临时。

Is there a job opening?" It was a little odd.

有职位空缺吗？”这有点奇怪。

And I went to lunch on Abbott Kinney and got a text from Evan's admin saying, "Can you come back to the office?

我去雅培金尼 (Abbott Kinney) 吃午饭，收到埃文 (Evan) 管理员发来的短信，说：“你能回到办公室吗？

Have you gotten on your plane yet?" I was like, "I was just ordering lunch.

你已经上飞机了吗？”我当时想，“我只是在点午餐。

I'll just come back right away."

我马上就回来。”

Tom Conrad: So I go back.

汤姆·康拉德：所以我回去了。

Now, it's one o'clock in the afternoon.

现在，已经是下午一点了。

This entire thing started at nine o'clock in the morning.

整个事情是从早上九点开始的。

I sit down in the conference room.

我坐在会议室里。

Evan comes in with a manila envelope and says, " We loved you.

埃文拿着一个马尼拉信封进来，说道：“我们爱你。

We'd like for you to be our VP of product," and handed me a written offer, all the terms, the stock compensation, the whole thing.

我们希望你成为我们的产品副总裁”，并给了我一份书面报价，包括所有条款、股票报酬，等等。

I'm gobsmacked.

我惊呆了。

I'm flattered, that this is really playing to my ego.

我很受宠若惊，这确实是在迎合我的自尊心。

I can't believe that this company that feels like maybe the most interesting thing that's happening in consumer tech, that their notoriously brilliant and mercurial founder has taken enough of a shine to me that he wants to give at least some of the keys to the product kingdom over after such a short courtship.

我不敢相信这家公司感觉可能是消费科技领域正在发生的最有趣的事情，他们出了名的才华横溢、善变的创始人竟然对我产生了足够的兴趣，以至于他想在如此短暂的求爱之后至少将一些产品王国的钥匙交给我。

Tom Conrad: So I leave, and when some of that buzz wears off, I start to wonder if there's some red flags here maybe.

汤姆·康拉德：所以我离开了，当一些嗡嗡声消退后，我开始怀疑这里是否存在一些危险信号。

So I tell Evan, "Listen, I'd like to come back and meet more of the leadership team and spend more time with you, go a little deeper on what this means." And so we extend our courtship by another week or so, and I'm super impressed by the rest of the leadership team and the product thinkers and the designers and things that I was going to get to work with on a daily basis.

所以我告诉埃文，“听着，我想回来与更多的领导团队成员见面，花更多的时间和你们在一起，更深入地了解这意味着什么。”因此，我们将求爱时间又延长了一周左右，领导团队的其他成员、产品思考者、设计师以及我每天要接触的东西给我留下了深刻的印象。

And so I take the job full knowing that it's going to be wildly different than Pandora, where I had all of this latitude to do whatever I might want to do, and in the context of Snapchat, at best, I was going to be Evan's right hand, a person that principally executed his vision.

因此，我接受这份工作时，深知它与潘多拉星球有很大不同，在潘多拉星球上，我有足够的自由度去做任何我想做的事情，而在 Snapchat 的背景下，我最多只能成为埃文的得力助手，一个主要执行他的愿景的人。

Tom Conrad: And that's certainly what it was.

汤姆·康拉德：事实确实如此。

I mean, Evan and I ended up having a really great collaboration, but it was certainly most days, I was executing on his vision, both at a high level, and very much in the details.

我的意思是，埃文和我最终进行了一次非常出色的合作，但肯定是在大多数日子里，我都在高水平和细节上执行他的愿景。

And Evan's truly brilliant, I mean, and he's also actually a really nice guy.

我的意思是，埃文真的很聪明，而且他实际上也是一个非常好的人。

I think in some ways, he gets a bad rep for...

我认为从某些方面来说，他的名声很差……

He has very high standards, but he's a very kind person, in my experiences with him.

他有很高的标准，但根据我与他相处的经历，他是一个非常友善的人。

But it was a super exhausting job and not as soul satisfying as I wanted it to be.

但这是一项超级累人的工作，而且并不像我想要的那样令人灵魂满足。

And after a couple of years, like I said, I thought maybe I just wanted to make croissants or something.

几年后，就像我说的，我想也许我只是想做羊角面包什么的。

Tom Conrad: But one really, really big important lesson that I learned at Snap is about risk taking.

Tom Conrad：但我在 Snap 学到的一个非常非常重要的教训是关于冒险。

And when you have the financial support and the foundational relationship with your investors that Evan has, it really allowed him to take these really big swings, acquire a technology that he thought was game changing, build features speculatively that maybe would be pruned in any other product roadmap planning process because the odds of them having an outsized impact were modest.

当你拥有埃文那样的财务支持和与投资者的基础关系时，这确实让他能够采取这些真正的重大举措，获得一项他认为会改变游戏规则的技术，推测性地构建可能会在任何其他产品路线图规划过程中被修剪的功能，因为它们产生巨大影响的可能性很小。

And it just allowed him time after time to make bets that paid off, and we forget about the ones that don't work when there are so many home runs in those years.

这让他一次又一次地做出了有回报的赌注，而那些年有那么多本垒打，我们就忘记了那些不起作用的赌注。

And we didn't have...

而我们没有...

Environmentally, we weren't set up for that at Pandora, but I think in some ways, I wasn't temperamentally inclined to those kinds of big swings.

从环境角度来说，潘多拉星球并没有为此做好准备，但我认为在某些方面，我在性格上并不倾向于那种大的波动。

And I think I take bigger risks and encourage bigger swings now because of things I learned from Evan and Snap.

我认为，由于我从埃文和斯内普身上学到的东西，我现在愿意承担更大的风险并鼓励更大的波动。

Lenny: That is an awesome story.

莱尼：那是一个很棒的故事。

It resonates a lot with what Brian shared about how he thinks about product now and just telling people what to build versus very bottom up, "Tell us ideas you have." That impact, the way you run, we're going to talk a bit about you as CEO now, but I guess, do you have a place that you try to be of CEO as, "Here's what we're building"?

这与 Brian 分享的关于他现在对产品的看法产生了很大的共鸣，他只是告诉人们要构建什么，而不是自下而上，“告诉我们你的想法。”这种影响，你的运作方式，我们现在要谈谈你作为首席执行官的情况，但我想，你是否有一个你试图成为首席执行官的地方，“这就是我们正在建设的”？

Tom Conrad: As a product-oriented CEO, how much you should lean in to the details versus set direction and create an environment where great people can do great work, I suspect there's not one answer that applies to every company stage.

汤姆·康拉德：作为一名以产品为导向的首席执行官，你应该在多大程度上注重细节而不是设定方向，并创造一个让优秀的人才能够做出出色工作的环境，我怀疑没有一个答案适用于每个公司阶段。

When I was at Apple, one of the reasons that we struggled to ship things is that Apple did a great job of assembling incredibly, incredibly smart and talented people.

当我在苹果公司时，我们难以交付产品的原因之一是，苹果公司在聚集令人难以置信的聪明和才华横溢的人才方面做得非常出色。

Just everyone around me at that early stage in my career was so, so inspiring.

在我职业生涯的早期阶段，我周围的每个人都非常非常鼓舞人心。

But one of the side effects of that is we would get in a room and we would turn over some problem or opportunity, and we would talk ourselves out of every good solution because it wasn't perfect.

但这样做的副作用之一是我们会进入一个房间，我们会交出一些问题或机会，我们会说服自己放弃每一个好的解决方案，因为它并不完美。

I used to joke that Apple was the only place in the world where a vote of a thousand to one was a tie because that one person would be so thoughtful in their critique that the other thousand people would be like, "Hmm, that's right, that's right." And even though there's been this huge consensus of what the right answer was, we would talk ourselves out of making decisions.

我曾经开玩笑说，苹果公司是世界上唯一一个以一千比一的票数打成平手的地方，因为一个人的批评是如此深思熟虑，以至于其他一千人会说，“嗯，没错，没错。”尽管人们对正确答案达成了巨大共识，但我们还是会说服自己放弃做出决定。

Lenny: That one wasn't Steve Jobs, necessarily?

莱尼：那一定不是史蒂夫·乔布斯吧？

It could be somebody else?

可能是其他人？

Tom Conrad: So I think what broke Apple out of that mode was Steve came back and they didn't vote anymore.

汤姆·康拉德：所以我认为让苹果摆脱这种模式的是史蒂夫回来了，他们不再投票了。

Steve was just making the call.

史蒂夫刚刚打电话。

And so I have some sympathy for Brian and Evan, who have these big, thousands of people working for them.

因此，我对布莱恩和埃文表示同情，他们有数千名员工为他们工作。

And as they delegate, they grow frustrated that there's not progress at the pace that they're looking for, and that there's indecision, and the people on the teams report that there's just churn and no progress, and there's fiefdoms and politics and all the rest, and that as the CEO, as a brilliant product-oriented CEO, they are uniquely situated to come in and cut through all of that garbage and get the trains running on time again.

当他们授权时，他们会感到沮丧，因为没有按照他们所寻求的速度取得进展，而且优柔寡断，团队中的人报告说，只有流失，没有进展，还有封地和政治等等，而作为首席执行官，作为一位出色的以产品为导向的首席执行官，他们处于独特的位置，可以介入并消除所有这些垃圾，让火车再次准时运行。

Tom Conrad: Having said all of that, I also think that it can be a mistake to be that kind of leader in a smaller org because part of the opportunity in a small org is to assemble a group of people that are incredibly talented that believe in your mission and where who you can easily influence with a much lighter touch and set them up to build a culture in an organization that can execute.

汤姆·康拉德：话虽如此，我还认为，在小型组织中担任这种领导者可能是一个错误，因为小型组织中的部分机会是聚集一群非常有才华的人，他们相信你的使命，并且你可以轻松地影响他们，并让他们在一个可以执行的组织中建立一种文化。

And so I see my job as CEO is to try to surf that edge of I'm really in the details.

因此，我认为作为首席执行官，我的工作就是努力探索“我真正关注细节”的优势。

So I deeply understand the business and the product decisions that we're making and the processes that we're using to run the business, but not overplay my hand with respect to dictating outcomes.

因此，我深入了解我们正在制定的业务和产品决策以及我们用于运营业务的流程，但在决定结果方面不会过度发挥我的作用。

Tom Conrad: The one thing you'll always have as CEO is, no matter how much you tell the team that when I swing by their virtual desk and say, "I've been thinking about this little detail that's not important right now, but what do you think?" It's like nine out of 10 times, that person is going to go and start working on that thing.

汤姆·康拉德：作为首席执行官，你永远拥有的一件事是，无论你告诉团队多少，当我在他们的虚拟办公桌前说：“我一直在考虑这个现在不重要的小细节，但你觉得怎么样？”就像十分之九的人会去开始做那件事。

And so you do have to be just really careful about the way you engage in some of those details, I think.

因此，我认为，你必须非常小心处理其中一些细节的方式。

Lenny: There's a really good episode I had with Lane Shackleton from Coda, and he shared this framework called flash tags that they use at Coda, and I think it comes from HubSpot, of you tell people, "Here's what the subpoena is.

Lenny：我和 Coda 的 Lane Shackleton 一起度过了一段非常精彩的插曲，他分享了他们在 Coda 使用的名为 flash 标签的框架，我认为它来自 HubSpot，你告诉人们，“这就是传票。

Is it an FYI?

这是仅供参考吗？

Is it a suggestion?

这是一个建议吗？

Is it a do this?" There's four of them and one's like, "I will die on this hill.

是要做这个吗？”他们有四个人，其中一个人说：“我会死在这座山上。

You need to do this."

你需要这样做。”

Tom Conrad: I try to do a lot of that.

汤姆·康拉德：我尝试做很多这样的事情。

I wish I could say that in my experience that that pays off.

我希望我能说，根据我的经验，这是有回报的。

I spend an awful lot of time, even the stuff I say very clearly, just one person's opinion, focus group of one, "Don't change your priorities to go work on this," it has more of an outsized impact on people's behavior than I intended.

我花了很多时间，即使是我说得很清楚的事情，只是一个人的意见，一个焦点小组，“不要为了解决这个问题而改变你的优先事项”，它对人们行为的影响比我预想的要大。

Lenny: Yeah.

莱尼：是的。

Easier said than done.

说起来容易做起来难。

Coming back to your journey, we've talked through the story up until getting to Quibi, but two years ago, you went in a whole new direction, and you're now the CEO of a company called Zero.

回到你的旅程，我们已经讨论了整个故事，直到到达 Quibi，但两年前，你走向了一个全新的方向，你现在是一家名为 Zero 的公司的首席执行官。

What is it like to move from just being a product leader or engi leader at a company to being the CEO for the first time?

从仅仅担任公司的产品领导者或工程师领导者到第一次担任首席执行官是什么感觉？

Why did you choose Zero as that role?

为什么选择零作为这个角色？

And what have you learned as CEO that you wish you knew as a product leader or engi leader at a company that listeners might find useful?

作为首席执行官，您学到了什么，而您希望作为公司的产品领导者或工程师领导者知道这些，听众可能会觉得有用？

Tom Conrad: It's been a really, really incredible couple of years.

汤姆·康拉德：这几年真是非常非常不可思议。

In the aftermath of Quibi, I spent a lot of time, as we all do, soul-searching about what I learned and what I might want to do next.

Quibi 事件发生后，我像我们所有人一样，花了很多时间进行自我反省，思考我学到了什么以及下一步可能想做的事情。

And as I thought about it, I realized that I really wanted to move on to something where I can have a direct impact on the culture and values of the company that I was involved in.

当我思考时，我意识到我真的很想继续从事一些可以对我所参与的公司的文化和价值观产生直接影响的事情。

I really got that opportunity at Pandora in a big way.

我确实在潘多拉获得了这个机会。

And I had spent the five years of Snapchat and Quibi working for Evan and Meg and Jeffrey who are all incredible business leaders, but have their own very specific style and approach, and that leaves a mark on the culture that's unique to the founder.

我在 Snapchat 和 Quibi 工作了五年，为埃文、梅格和杰弗里工作，他们都是令人难以置信的商业领袖，但有自己非常具体的风格和方法，这在创始人独特的文化上留下了印记。

Tom Conrad: And then as we've discussed, I'm always really interested in building things that are near and dear to me, and I was particularly thinking about what can I do that could have a really positive impact on the world in my next chapter.

汤姆·康拉德：正如我们所讨论的，我总是对构建我身边的东西非常感兴趣，而且我特别思考我能做些什么才能在下一章中对世界产生真正积极的影响。

I've built an awful lot of media stuff through the years, video games and streaming services and so forth, and it seemed like maybe there was something that had a little bit more weight to it that I could spend my time on.

多年来，我已经创建了大量的媒体产品、视频游戏和流媒体服务等等，似乎也许有一些东西更重要，我可以花时间在上面。

And so my first thought was I would start something, a company idea I was quietly workshopping for some months.

所以我的第一个想法是我要开始做一些事情，一个我已经悄悄研究了几个月的公司想法。

And completely independent from all of that, it's eight months into the pandemic, and my own personal health was at an all time low.

完全独立于所有这些，大流行已经过去八个月了，我自己的个人健康状况处于历史最低水平。

I was 50 or 60 pounds overweight, my cholesterol was in the red zone.

我超重了 50 或 60 磅，我的胆固醇处于红色区域。

I mean, I was out of breath climbing stairs, which is something that I had never encountered in my life before.

我的意思是，我爬楼梯时气喘吁吁，这是我以前从未遇到过的情况。

Tom Conrad: I'm a bit of a yo-yo dieter and I'm always critical of looking in the mirror, but I was never ever really worried about my health, my longevity, and suddenly, I was.

汤姆·康拉德：我是个摇摆不定的节食者，我总是对照镜子持批评态度，但我从来没有真正担心过自己的健康和寿命，突然之间，我开始担心了。

And so my solution to that was to go really deep on metabolic health, just thousands of hours of podcasts and videos and glucose monitoring patches and Oura Rings and digital fitness gear and just to try to understand the things that impact health and longevity.

因此，我的解决方案是深入研究代谢健康，只需数千小时的播客、视频、血糖监测贴片、Oura Rings 和数字健身装备，并尝试了解影响健康和寿命的因素。

And as much as I would like to report that what I learned is that there's some magic pill that you can take, maybe some off label rapamycin or something, the truth is, is that to live a longer and healthier life, you really have to attack what I would call metabolic disease, which will manifest in overweight and obesity and pre-diabetes and diabetes and high cholesterol and all of these things that impact your long-term health.

尽管我很想告诉大家，我了解到的是，你可以服用一些神奇的药丸，也许是一些标签外的雷帕霉素之类的东西，但事实是，为了活得更长久、更健康，你真的必须攻击我所说的代谢疾病，这种疾病会表现为超重、肥胖、糖尿病前期、糖尿病和高胆固醇，以及所有这些影响你长期健康的事情。

Tom Conrad: And so I found Zero in this path and was using it to help with my own health journey.

汤姆·康拉德：所以我在这条路上找到了零，并用它来帮助我自己的健康之旅。

And Mike Maser founded the company four and a half years ago, and he and I were talking in this interval about my own experience with the product.

迈克·马瑟 (Mike Maser) 在四年半前创立了这家公司，在这段时间里，他和我谈论了我自己对该产品的体验。

I was just giving him product feedback and so forth, and he was telling me a little bit about his own entrepreneurial journey.

我只是给他提供产品反馈等，他给我讲了一些他自己的创业历程。

And somewhere in the conversation, Mike said, "My intention is to step up into the executive chair role and to find a CEO for the company." So again, in my story, just over and over and over, this incredibly fortuitous thing happened.

在谈话中，迈克说：“我的目的是担任执行主席，并为公司寻找首席执行官。”所以，在我的故事中，这种极其偶然的事情一次又一次地发生。

I just knew immediately that it ticked all the boxes, "Here's a chance to lead something that already had some momentum to impact the culture and values in a really direct way and was really, really close to my own personal journey."

我立刻就知道它满足了所有条件，“这是一个机会，可以领导一些已经有动力以非常直接的方式影响文化和价值观的事情，并且非常非常接近我自己的个人旅程。”

Tom Conrad: And so we know we've got a great little company and 27 people, we've got more than a million users on the platform every month.

Tom Conrad：所以我们知道我们有一家很棒的小公司，有 27 名员工，每个月我们的平台上都有超过 100 万用户。

Over a hundred thousand of them pay us with tens of millions of dollars of revenue through the years, and have had double-digit growth even coming out of the pandemic when lots of health and fitness companies saw retreats.

多年来，其中超过十万家公司向我们支付了数千万美元的收入，即使在疫情结束后，当许多健康和健身公司出现衰退时，它们仍然实现了两位数的增长。

And most importantly, it actually works.

最重要的是，它确实有效。

75% of the people who use the platform lose weight.

使用该平台的人中有75%减肥。

People lose, on average, five to 10% of their body weight in the first 60 days.

人们在最初的 60 天内平均体重会减轻 5% 到 10%。

And because of the success that people have, we grow just completely organically.

由于人们取得的成功，我们完全有机地成长。

We have no paid user acquisition at all.

我们根本没有付费用户获取。

It's really a word of mouth business.

这确实是一个口碑生意。

Tom Conrad: But that's not to say that it's not challenging.

汤姆·康拉德：但这并不是说它没有挑战性。

All startups are challenging.

所有初创公司都充满挑战。

And what we've really focused on for the last couple of years is we've been really focused on unit economics, really trying to understand how much value can we derive and deliver for every person who downloads and installs the app, how do we convert them through all of the funnels efficiently and get them engaged with the product and get them to retain and drive that up in a really systematic way.

过去几年我们真正关注的是单位经济效益，真正试图了解我们能为每个下载和安装应用程序的人带来和提供多少价值，我们如何通过所有渠道有效地转换他们，让他们参与产品，并让他们以真正系统的方式保留和推动产品。

And with my whole career, I'm definitely a person who started off thinking software development was mostly an art form, you find brilliant visionaries who have a deep understanding of human behavior, and they craft solutions for problems that other people don't see, and they make them delightful, and they get all the little details right.

在我的整个职业生涯中，我绝对是一个一开始就认为软件开发主要是一种艺术形式的人，你会发现才华横溢的梦想家对人类行为有深刻的理解，他们为其他人看不到的问题制定解决方案，他们让解决方案变得令人愉快，他们把所有的小细节都做好了。

And when you found product market fit for the art, then you optimize them through a really quantitative take.

当您发现适合艺术的产品市场时，您可以通过真正的定量分析来优化它们。

Tom Conrad: And so I'm definitely a person that sees both sides of that left brain and right brain equation that's important in software.

汤姆·康拉德：所以我绝对是一个看到左脑和右脑方程式的两边的人，这在软件中很重要。

But here's the thing my eyes have really opened to in the last two years.

但这是过去两年里我真正大开眼界的事情。

While companies are definitely the software that they make and the products that they deliver and that there is an art and science to that, as I described, there is also, if you step back, there is an equation that describes the business.

虽然公司肯定是他们制造的软件和他们提供的产品，正如我所描述的，这其中存在艺术和科学，但如果你退一步，还有一个描述业务的方程式。

It talks about how you turn investment into returns.

它谈论如何将投资转化为回报。

And I suppose if I had come up with finance and been a business major that maybe that's the way that I would've conceived of companies to begin with.

我想，如果我学的是金融并且是商科专业的，也许这就是我最初构想公司的方式。

So maybe it's a little embarrassing that I had to be 53 years old before, I think, the scales fell through my eyes and I was like, "Oh, companies are equations."

所以也许有点尴尬的是，我之前已经 53 岁了，我想，天平从我的眼前掉了下来，我当时想，“哦，公司就是方程式。”

Tom Conrad: And so when we first started talking about lifetime value and customer acquisition costs and getting those two things balanced and just the thinking about the unit economics of the business, my natural instinct was to go immediately to the leaf nodes of the equation like, "Oh, what percentage of people do we convert from install to registered and from registered to trial," and these very way down at the bottom of all the funnels and to ask the product team like, "Let's try to optimize these." And in the process though of trying to understand where we could take the business as we optimize those various dimensions and trying to understand too which of the dimensions had the most leverage, I started building these ever more sophisticated models that describe the whole business.

汤姆·康拉德：因此，当我们第一次开始讨论终身价值和客户获取成本，并平衡这两件事并思考企业的单位经济效益时，我的本能反应是立即转到等式的叶节点，例如，“哦，我们将多少百分比的人从安装转换为注册，从注册转换为试用”，这些都位于所有渠道的底部，并询问产品团队，“让我们尝试优化这些。”在尝试了解在优化这些不同维度时我们可以将业务带入何处并尝试了解哪些维度最具影响力的过程中，我开始构建这些描述整个业务的更加复杂的模型。

Tom Conrad: I mean, in startups, you get to wear a lot of hats.

汤姆·康拉德：我的意思是，在初创公司中，你要身兼数职。

And definitely a hat that I'm wearing that I didn't anticipate at all is I'm the full-time FP&A guy for Zero.

当然，我所戴的一顶帽子是我完全没有预料到的，那就是我是《零》的全职 FP&A 人员。

And so I built this spreadsheet that aggregates data from all of our business intelligence tools and raw data from our subscription transactions and looks at all of our historical results and all of our expenses and spend and then could use that to predict future scenarios by manipulating all of these variables.

因此，我构建了这个电子表格，聚合来自我们所有商业智能工具的数据和来自订阅交易的原始数据，并查看我们所有的历史结果以及所有费用和支出，然后可以通过操纵所有这些变量来使用它来预测未来的情况。

And it's just not at all the way I ever thought about products before.

这根本不是我以前思考产品的方式。

And I know that you've got lots of listeners like, "This guy's an idiot.

我知道有很多听众会说，“这家伙是个白痴。

This is a fundamental way to contemplate product work."

这是思考产品工作的基本方式。”

Tom Conrad: But if there's anybody out there like me who thought of it as art first and then optimization in the details, it is really, really powerful to spend the time to create the model that describes the whole thing so you can identify what are the high leverage points to focus on.

汤姆·康拉德：但是，如果有人像我一样首先将其视为艺术，然后在细节上进行优化，那么花时间创建描述整个事物的模型真的非常非常强大，这样您就可以确定需要关注的高杠杆点。

So been doing a lot of that at the company in the last two years and it's really starting to deliver incredible results.

因此，在过去的两年里，我们在公司做了很多这样的事情，并且确实开始带来令人难以置信的成果。

Like everything in life, I mean, you sign up for things so you can learn, and that's the big one for me in the last year.

就像生活中的一切一样，我的意思是，你报名参加一些事情，这样你就可以学习，这对我来说是去年的重大事件。

Lenny: I really love that takeaway of as a CEO coming back to share, here's what you should be thinking about that the CEO is probably thinking about, as a product leader, you may not be, of trying to actually spend the time to think about the business model and understand it deeply because your founders are thinking about it all the time.

莱尼：我真的很喜欢作为首席执行官回来分享的这一点，这就是你应该考虑的事情，首席执行官可能正在考虑，作为产品领导者，你可能不会，试图真正花时间思考商业模式并深入理解它，因为你的创始人一直在思考它。

And so if you're not, you're missing out on here's a way to influence them, here's a way to...

所以，如果你不这样做，你就错过了影响他们的方法，这是……的方法。

Tom Conrad: It's so funny too because it's a thing I suddenly understand something that mystified me through my entire career, which was I'd go to board meetings and the investors would ask these probing questions, but they were really never about the product and what the product did and what the product roadmap was and what the features were and what this...

汤姆·康拉德：这也很有趣，因为我突然明白了一件让我在整个职业生涯中感到困惑的事情，那就是我会去参加董事会会议，投资者会问这些探索性的问题，但他们实际上从来没有关于产品、产品做了什么、产品路线图是什么、功能是什么以及这是什么......

It all seemed to operate at this level that was almost completely independent of the details of the "what is the solution you put into the world", which as a product-oriented thinker, was just completely baffling to me.

这一切似乎都在这个层面上运作，几乎完全独立于“你向世界提出的解决方案是什么”的细节，作为一个以产品为导向的思考者，这对我来说完全是令人困惑的。

And I now realize that they were tilling the soil that I'm talking about, they were tilling.

我现在意识到他们正在耕种我所说的土壤，他们正在耕种。

Tom Conrad: It doesn't really matter what the screens are and what the features are.

Tom Conrad：屏幕是什么以及功能是什么并不重要。

I mean, it certainly matters, but that there's another higher order way to look at a company, which is really about the optimization of this equation.

我的意思是，这当然很重要，但是还有另一种更高层次的方式来看待一家公司，这实际上是关于这个方程的优化。

And I think particularly, if you sit on 25 boards, it's probably a much more efficient way to evaluate how your companies are doing and where to spend your time and how to help by thinking about them abstracted up at that layer.

我特别认为，如果你在 25 个董事会任职，这可能是一种更有效的方法来评估你的公司的表现、在哪里花时间以及如何通过在该层抽象思考它们来提供帮助。

So I will never stop thinking about software development as being an art form and I will never stop enjoying the days when I get to lean in on the details, but it's been pretty eyeopening.

因此，我永远不会停止将软件开发视为一种艺术形式，我永远不会停止享受深入细节的日子，但这真是令人大开眼界。

Lenny: The other thing that stands out here, one is I think this is especially true for consumer subscription apps, which I've done some research on.

莱尼：这里突出的另一件事是，我认为这对于消费者订阅应用程序尤其如此，我对此进行了一些研究。

And basically, they never work.

基本上，它们从不工作。

There's Duolingo, there's Zero, which I didn't know how much scale you guys reached.

有Duolingo，有Zero，我不知道你们达到了多少规模。

My math here real quick.

我的数学很快。

So you have a million users, a hundred thousand paying users.

所以你有一百万用户，十万付费用户。

You charge at 10 bucks a month.

您每月收费 10 美元。

I know there's a discount for an annual plan, but basically, you're making somewhere around a million dollars a month, which you don't have to confirm or deny it, but that's the math I just did, and that's crazy.

我知道年度计划有折扣，但基本上，你每月可以赚大约一百万美元，你不必确认或否认它，但这就是我刚刚做的数学，这太疯狂了。

So congrats.

所以恭喜。

That's a rare successful consumer subscription app.

这是一款罕见的成功的消费者订阅应用程序。

It never happens.

它永远不会发生。

Tom Conrad: And like I said, every startup is hard, and I never stop being surprised at the new hard things that pop up every day.

汤姆·康拉德：就像我说的，每一次创业都是艰难的，我对每天出现的新困难事物总是感到惊讶。

But we're on a really great run.

但我们的进展非常顺利。

We've had a tremendous year, and I'm just so, so proud of the team we've assembled.

我们度过了美好的一年，我为我们组建的团队感到非常非常自豪。

They're incredible for the last.

他们最后的表现令人难以置信。

Lenny: Part of the reason you're so successful is exactly what you said.

莱尼：你如此成功的部分原因正是你所说的。

There's a huge focus on LTV/CAC, the math formula, because for these sorts of businesses, the crux of it is can you acquire people for less money than you need to spend?

人们非常关注 LTV/CAC 这个数学公式，因为对于这类企业来说，关键在于你能否以比你需要花的钱更少的钱来吸引人才？

Tom Conrad: One thing that's really fortunate for Zero is Mike Maser, who founded the company, and I have both been around the block long enough and enough times that we remember 2008, we remember 2000.

Tom Conrad：对 Zero 来说真正幸运的一件事是 Mike Maser，他创立了这家公司，我在这个街区呆了足够长的时间，足够多的时间，我们记得 2008 年，我们记得 2000 年。

And so in these moments in the pandemic, there were companies in our category that were raising hundreds of billions of dollars with the intention of throwing it at paid user acquisition.

因此，在大流行的这些时刻，我们类别中的一些公司筹集了数千亿美元，打算将其投入付费用户获取。

And we made a conscious decision to optimize the value of the organic traffic that we were getting and to drive our growth through LTV expansion rather than top of funnel expansion, which was candidly not in fashion in 2021, 2022.

我们有意识地决定优化我们获得的有机流量的价值，并通过 LTV 扩张而不是漏斗顶部扩张来推动我们的增长，坦率地说，这在 2021 年、2022 年并不流行。

Tom Conrad: ...

汤姆·康拉德：……

in 2021, 2022.

2021年、2022年。

It turns out it's much more in fashion these days as companies are called upon to be much more capital efficient than they were during the pandemic era.

事实证明，如今这种做法更加流行，因为公司被要求比大流行时期提高资本效率。

I guess I feel somewhat fortunate that my natural inclination as an entrepreneur is more in sync with the expectations of the market than it was for a while.

我想我感到有些幸运，因为我作为企业家的自然倾向比以前更符合市场的期望。

Lenny: Okay.

莱尼：好的。

So you've probably had the longest career arc of anyone I've had on this podcast.

所以你可能是我在这个播客中拥有最长职业生涯的人。

You've worked at all of these different companies in a lot of different phases.

您曾在所有这些不同的公司工作过很多不同的阶段。

You're still at it.

你还在坚持。

And I'm curious what you've learned about how to maintain your mental health and avoid burnout essentially through this journey.

我很好奇你在这段旅程中学到了什么关于如何保持心理健康并避免倦怠的知识。

You mentioned you take some time off.

你提到你要休息一段时间。

Is there anything else you found or is that a trick of just how to not burnout?

你还有其他发现吗？或者这是避免倦怠的一个技巧？

Tom Conrad: Do you know this Japanese concept called Ikigai?

汤姆·康拉德：你知道日本的“Ikigai”概念吗？

Lenny: Mm-hmm.

莱尼：嗯嗯。

Yeah, but share it.

是的，但是分享一下。

Share it for folks that may not be familiar.

分享给那些可能不熟悉的人。

Tom Conrad: So the idea is it's a Venn diagram and there are four spheres.

汤姆·康拉德：所以我们的想法是，这是一个维恩图，有四个球体。

There's a sphere that's labeled what you love.

有一个球体标有您喜欢的东西。

There's a sphere labeled what you're good at.

有一个领域标记了您擅长的领域。

There's a sphere labeled what the world needs, and there's a sphere called what you can be paid for, and where they all intersect is this Japanese idea, Ikigai.

有一个领域被称为“世界需要什么”，还有一个领域被称为“你能得到什么”，它们的交集就是日本的理念“Ikigai”。

It's the intersection of what you're good at, what you love, what the world needs, and what you can be paid for.

它是你擅长什么、你喜欢什么、世界需要什么以及你能得到什么报酬的交集。

If you find that, it's Ikigai.

如果你找到了，那就是Ikigai。

And interestingly, your listeners should go and find this because there are interesting ways to label the other intersections, the intersections where all four don't come together.

有趣的是，你的听众应该去找到这个，因为有一些有趣的方法来标记其他交叉点，即所有四个交叉点都不在一起的交叉点。

And what's really interesting is that the ones that are three but not four, I think because they're the ones that are close but not quite to this really satisfying thing.

真正有趣的是那些是三个而不是四个的，我认为因为它们是接近但不太令人满意的东西。

And so it's like when you find those, it's really easy to choose a job or to choose a path where you have three but not four, which is a really great recipe if you're feeling like there's something just out of your reach that's really important.

所以当你找到这些的时候，就很容易选择一份工作或选择一条只有三个而不是四个的道路，如果你觉得有一些东西超出了你的能力范围，而且非常重要，那么这是一个非常好的秘诀。

Tom Conrad: Anyway, it's a great framework to think about your life and your career.

汤姆·康拉德：无论如何，这是一个思考你的生活和职业生涯的绝佳框架。

So to start, I'm incredibly lucky that it's all Ikigai for me.

首先，我非常幸运，这对我来说都是 Ikigai。

What I'm good at, what I love, what the world needs, what I get paid for, they have always overlapped.

我擅长什么，我喜欢什么，世界需要什么，我得到报酬什么，它们总是重叠的。

And a big part of it is just what I love is this world.

其中很大一部分就是我所爱的就是这个世界。

I love software, I love building software, I love writing software, I love using software.

我喜欢软件，我喜欢构建软件，我喜欢编写软件，我喜欢使用软件。

People are like, "What are your hobbies?" I don't think I have any hobbies and I think about, "Well, what kinds of things do I do on the weekend for fun?" And it's like I'm teaching myself After Effects or something, which I will immediately forget, but it's just fun to go really deep on some piece of interesting software.

人们会问，“你的爱好是什么？”我不认为我有任何爱好，我会想，“好吧，周末我会做哪些有趣的事情？”这就像我正在自学 After Effects 或其他东西，我会立即忘记，但深入研究一些有趣的软件是很有趣的。

Tom Conrad: So I'm very lucky.

汤姆·康拉德：所以我很幸运。

And so I think that has been super sustaining for me.

所以我认为这对我来说是超级支撑。

One of the reasons I've been able to do it as long as I have without really burning out is that just, it's what I do.

我能够这么长时间地做这件事而不会真正精疲力尽的原因之一是，这就是我所做的。

And in some ways it's why I come back to it.

从某些方面来说，这就是我回过头来讨论这个问题的原因。

It's easy to say, "I'm going to become a pastry chef," but left to my own devices, I use software, I make software.

说“我要成为一名糕点师”很容易，但留给我自己的设备，我使用软件，我制作软件。

It's my hobby, it's my passion, it's all the things.

这是我的爱好，这是我的激情，这是我的一切。

Tom Conrad: But a couple of thoughts about how one engages with their work.

汤姆·康拉德：但是关于人们如何参与工作的一些想法。

One thing is I'm really not a #hustling kind of leader.

有一件事是我真的不是一个#husdling 类型的领导者。

There was a woman that I worked with on the Finder just out of college that left a really big mark on me.

大学毕业后，我在 Finder 上与一位女士一起工作，她给我留下了深刻的印象。

My own style of work then, I think I mentioned my memory of flashing, blinking the folder animation was a 2: 00 AM kind of thing.

然后我自己的工作风格，我想我提到了我对闪烁的记忆，闪烁文件夹动画是凌晨 2:00 之类的事情。

I was 23 years old.

那年我23岁。

I woke up at 11 o'clock in the morning.

我早上11点就醒了。

I went to the office, I screwed around and played video games in the Apple Arcade and went to a couple of meetings and had lunch and stood at the whiteboard and pontificated about some nonsense.

我去了办公室，在 Apple Arcade 里闲逛、玩电子游戏，参加了几次会议，吃了午餐，站在白板前武断地谈论了一些废话。

And then about four o'clock every day I would start writing software and I would write software until 2:00 or 3:00 in the morning and then I would go out to dinner with people from the team in the middle of it and whatever.

然后每天大约四点钟我会开始编写软件，我会编写软件直到凌晨 2:00 或 3:00，然后我会出去和团队中的人一起吃晚饭等等。

Tom Conrad: And so it kind of looked like I spent 14 hours a day, six or seven days a week at Apple, and I was celebrated for this.

汤姆·康拉德：看起来我每天在苹果工作 14 个小时，每周工作六到七天，我因此而受到庆祝。

There was lots of nights where I would work clear through the night and my boss would come in the next morning, he'd be like, "Are you still here?" And I'm like, "I'm still here.

有很多个夜晚，我会通宵工作，第二天早上我的老板就会过来，他会问，“你还在吗？”我想，“我还在这里。

Look at this cool thing I did." And I got a lot of attention for that.

看看我做的这件很酷的事。”我因此受到了很多关注。

And then there's this woman on the team who showed up every single morning at 8:30, sat at her desk, wrote a ton of great software, and every night packed her stuff up and left.

团队中还有一位女士，她每天早上 8:30 出现，坐在办公桌前，编写大量优秀的软件，每天晚上收拾好东西就离开。

And she contributed more than I ever did.

她的贡献比我以往任何时候都多。

And I don't think she got the same kind of recognition that I got because of the way she did the work.

我不认为她因为她的工作方式而得到了我所得到的同样的认可。

Tom Conrad: And when we were building the team and culture at Pandora, I thought about her a lot and really made a point of saying that I just wasn't interested in performative contribution, that it's the work that matters and what I want to celebrate is if you can show up and do it and go home and have other things in your life, because I think that's a recipe for being able to do it on a sustained basis rather than burning yourself out.

汤姆·康拉德：当我们在潘多拉建立团队和文化时，我经常想起她，并特别强调，我只是对表演贡献不感兴趣，重要的是工作，我想庆祝的是，如果你能出现并完成它，然后回家并在你的生活中拥有其他事情，因为我认为这是能够持续完成它而不是让自己精疲力竭的秘诀。

Tom Conrad: I think there's some nuance in this.

汤姆·康拉德：我认为这其中存在一些细微差别。

I think 22 year old me was always going to want to work through the night.

我想 22 岁的我总是想通宵工作。

And so I think creating space that that's okay too is important.

所以我认为创造合适的空间也很重要。

And I think maybe in some ways at Pandora it was almost like that wasn't okay.

我想也许在潘多拉的某些方面，这几乎是不对的。

It was like, "You should be taking more breaks.

就像是，“你应该多休息。

Why are you going this hard?" But I do try to create environments where people have a reasonable balance between their regular life and their technology life or room for that if they choose it.

你为什么要这么辛苦？”但我确实尝试创造环境，让人们在日常生活和技术生活之间取得合理的平衡，或者如果他们选择的话，可以有这样的空间。

And I do think that that has through the years, has helped me keep at it, but I still work a lot of nights and weekends because I love it.

我确实认为多年来这帮助我坚持下去，但我仍然在很多晚上和周末工作，因为我喜欢它。

It's what I do.

这就是我所做的。

Tom Conrad: Here's the other thing.

汤姆·康拉德：这是另一件事。

I got very, very lucky with the Pandora experience and got this outsized, probably inappropriate financial reward for being a part of it and gave me options that I never imagined that I would have.

我非常非常幸运地获得了潘多拉体验，并因为参与其中而获得了巨额的、可能不适当的经济奖励，并给了我一些我从未想象过的选择。

And so after 10 years I left and I didn't know what I would do, but I did really need a break.

十年后我离开了，我不知道自己会做什么，但我确实需要休息一下。

It was a really hard job and that was definitely a moment where I needed some time to recover.

这是一项非常艰苦的工作，那绝对是我需要一些时间来恢复的时刻。

But I think if you had asked me on that first day, I would say, "I don't know why these people find success and then start another company right away.

但我想如果你在第一天问我，我会说：“我不知道为什么这些人取得了成功，然后立即创办了另一家公司。

Why?

为什么？

There's so many things you could do in the world, why would you start another company?

世界上有很多事情你可以做，为什么你还要创办另一家公司呢？

It's so hard."

太难了。”

Tom Conrad: And I was particularly in love with the idea that I had access to experience.

汤姆·康拉德：我特别喜欢我能够获得经验的想法。

I didn't really care about things, I didn't want a fancy watch or whatever, a car, but I wanted to see the world.

我并不真正关心事情，我不想要一块漂亮的手表或其他什么，一辆车，但我想看看这个世界。

And so I thought, "I'm going to just go and I'm going to live in London for three months, then I come back to San Francisco for a month.

所以我想，“我要离开，在伦敦住三个月，然后回到旧金山一个月。

I'm going to go live in Mexico City for three months and I'm going to just have this life where I'm soaking up experiences." And after doing that for six months, the thing that I came to realize is that what I care about way more than experiences is relationships.

我将在墨西哥城生活三个月，我将过着吸收经验的生活。”这样做了六个月后，我开始意识到，我比经历更关心的是人际关系。

If you're the person who is constantly on a plane seeking out some new experience, it's really hard to form and maintain intimate, satisfying relationships.

如果你是一个经常在飞机上寻找新体验的人，那么建立和维持亲密、令人满意的关系真的很困难。

Tom Conrad: So I went back to San Francisco, I'm like, "I can't be all over the world if I want to be engaged with friends and like-minded people." And you know what people do on Monday morning?

汤姆·康拉德：所以我回到了旧金山，我想，“如果我想与朋友和志趣相投的人交往，我就不能走遍世界。”你知道人们周一早上做什么吗？

They go to work.

他们去上班。

And so if you want to be engaged with humanity, where they are on Monday morning is at work.

因此，如果你想与人类接触，周一早上他们就在工作。

And so more than I had the itch to build things, which I do very much have, I had the itch to collaborate, to be in the game with other people.

因此，我不仅渴望建造东西（我确实如此），还渴望合作，渴望与其他人一起参与游戏。

So that was what took me to Snapchat, took me out of chasing experiences and took me back to building again.

这就是我使用 Snapchat 的原因，让我摆脱了对体验的追逐，并再次回到了创作中。

And then as we've already described, at a point I thought, "Well, I care about this collaboration, but maybe it doesn't need to be software that I'm creating in the world." And Quibi gave me a chance to fall back in love with that process again.

然后，正如我们已经描述的那样，有一次我想，“好吧，我关心这种合作，但也许它不需要是我在世界上创建的软件。” Quibi 让我有机会再次爱上这个过程。

And here we are, more software.

我们来了，更多的软件。

Lenny: Plus being on a board of a hardware company.

莱尼：再加上是一家硬件公司的董事会成员。

What you just shared reminds me of Mark Manson's book, The Subtle Art of Not Giving a Fuck.

你刚刚分享的内容让我想起马克·曼森的书《不在乎的微妙艺术》。

Have you read this book?

你读过这本书吗？

Lenny: Okay.

莱尼：好的。

It sold a bazillion copies, and the core of it is that we get joy out of solving problems and we think we'll be happy when we have freedom to do nothing.

它售出了无数份，其核心是我们从解决问题中获得乐趣，并且我们认为当我们有无所事事的自由时我们会感到高兴。

But it turns out freedom is only helpful to help us discover the problems we just want to keep solving.

但事实证明，自由只会帮助我们发现我们只想继续解决的问题。

Tom Conrad: Yeah, totally.

汤姆·康拉德：是的，完全可以。

I think that's exactly right.

我认为这是完全正确的。

Yeah.

是的。

Lenny: It sounds like that's the experience you went on.

莱尼：听起来这就是你的经历。

Last question, this new segment, I'm going to call Contrarian Corner.

最后一个问题，这个新的部分，我将称之为“逆向角”。

And the question is, is there something that you have a contrarian opinion about, something that you believe that most other people don't?

问题是，是否有一些事情你有相反的观点，或者你认为大多数其他人没有的观点？

Tom Conrad: There's a segment in our industry that believes this very intensely, which is there's this belief that everybody needs to be a founder.

汤姆·康拉德：我们行业中有一部分人非常坚信这一点，即每个人都需要成为创始人。

And I think in some ways our industry would be much better off if there were fewer founders.

我认为，在某些方面，如果创始人更少，我们的行业会好得多。

I use an entire category of smart, creative, hardworking, talented, borderline visionary people who can raise that $2 million seed and go off and build some stupid company that's never going to go anywhere, that would be so much better off finding a team that needs their skillset and working on a problem that has, as I described, the mathematical formula that's going to win, that has the market opportunity that's the right size, that has the 10X thinking that can really...

我使用了一整类聪明、有创造力、勤奋、有才华、有远见的人，他们可以筹集 200 万美元的种子，然后去建立一些永远不会有任何进展的愚蠢公司，如果找到一个需要他们的技能的团队并致力于解决一个问题，正如我所描述的那样，拥有将获胜的数学公式，拥有适当规模的市场机会，拥有真正可以……的 10 倍思维，那就更好了。

And I'm a little biased here because while I am a CEO for the first time now, I've never been a founder and I've been lucky enough to find a bunch of young teams that could benefit from my skills and enthusiasms, and sometimes to some success and sometimes to some embarrassment, but always really, really interesting.

我在这里有点偏见，因为虽然我现在第一次担任首席执行官，但我从来没有成为过创始人，而且我很幸运地找到了一群可以从我的技能和热情中受益的年轻团队，有时会取得一些成功，有时会有些尴尬，但总是非常非常有趣。

Tom Conrad: Yeah.

汤姆·康拉德：是的。

If you're out there and you think that the only possible way you can be successful in this industry on any metric, whatever metric you care about: you want the acclaim of your peers, you want financial reward, you want any of the things that people aspire to, outside impact on culture, whatever the thing is that gets you out of bed every morning, you can achieve that in collaboration with others.

如果你认为，无论你关心什么指标，在这个行业取得成功的唯一可能的方法是：你想要同行的赞誉，你想要经济回报，你想要人们渴望的任何东西，对文化的外部影响，无论是什么让你每天早上起床，你都可以与他人合作实现这一目标。

You don't have to be the person that raises the seed round.

您不必是筹集种子轮的人。

Lenny: I 100% agree with that.

莱尼：我百分百同意这一点。

I'm always telling people, "Don't start a company.

我总是告诉人们，“不要创办公司。

It's super painful, very rarely works out.

非常痛苦，很少能成功。

It's so hard." I don't know what's harder, being a product manager or being a founder, probably being a founder.

太难了。”我不知道做产品经理和做创始人哪个更难，可能是做创始人。

They're both very hard.

他们俩都很难。

Tom Conrad: Yeah, it is quite hard too.

汤姆·康拉德：是的，这也很难。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

And just to be perfectly clear, there's something really special about founders.

需要明确的是，创始人确实有一些特别之处。

At both Pandora and now at Zero, the actual founders have from time to time said, "Well, you're like a founder." And I'm like, "I'm nothing like a founder.

在 Pandora 和现在的 Zero，真正的创始人时不时会说：“嗯，你就像一个创始人。”我想，“我一点也不像创始人。

You took all the risk.

你承担了所有的风险。

When I showed up, there was a team and there was momentum and there was money in the bank.

当我出现时，有一个团队，有动力，银行里有钱。

I appreciate your desire to say complimentary things, but 'You're like a founder' is not one that I'll take."

我很欣赏你想要说一些赞美的话，但我不会接受‘你就像一位创始人’这样的说法。”

Lenny: With that, we've reached our very exciting lightning round.

莱尼：这样，我们就进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。

Are you ready?

你准备好了吗？

Lenny: What are two or three books that you've recommended most to other people?

莱尼：你向其他人推荐最多的两三本书是什么？

Tom Conrad: I really love Elad Gil's High Growth Handbook.

汤姆·康拉德：我真的很喜欢埃拉德·吉尔的《高增长手册》。

It's organized into chapters about foundational company building, building a leadership team, building a board, and in addition to the thoughtful synthesis on that topic from Elad, he has an interview of someone that he does relevant to that section on each of the chapters.

它被组织成关于公司基础建设、领导团队建设、董事会建设的章节，除了埃拉德对该主题的深思熟虑的综合之外，他还对每个章节中与该部分相关的人进行了采访。

Really, really great read and super actionable if you're a leader in a young company.

如果你是一家年轻公司的领导者，那么这本书真的非常非常值得一读，并且非常具有可操作性。

In a completely different end of the spectrum, I love big, complicated science fiction and there's a lot of garbage science fiction out there to be sure, but when you find something special, it's the best.

在完全不同的一端，我喜欢宏大、复杂的科幻小说，当然也有很多垃圾科幻小说，但当你发现一些特别的东西时，它就是最好的。

So probably through the years in that category, there's a book called Hyperion by Dan Simmons.

所以多年来，在这一类别中，可能有一本书叫《海伯利安》，作者是丹·西蒙斯。

That's just a total classic.

这简直就是一个经典。

Everybody should read it.

每个人都应该阅读它。

Lenny: I read that.

莱尼：我读到了。

I think I read the first couple in the first one.

我想我读了第一本书中的第一对。

Tom Conrad: Yeah.

汤姆·康拉德：是的。

There is a sequel that's exceptional as well.

还有一个续集也很出色。

And it's probably worth warning your readers that Hyperion is quite long and has an absolute cliffhanger.

也许值得提醒读者的是，《海伯利安》相当长，而且绝对扣人心弦。

Lenny: I think they're making a show out of it, which is going to be wild.

莱尼：我认为他们正在用它来做一场表演，这将是疯狂的。

I don't know how they do a show around that book.

我不知道他们如何围绕那本书进行表演。

I thought you were going to say this other book, A Fire Upon the Deep.

我以为你会说另一本书，《深海之火》。

Have you heard of this book?

你听说过这本书吗？

Lenny: Okay.

莱尼：好的。

That's also very complicated, but incredible.

这也非常复杂，但令人难以置信。

Tom Conrad: Yeah, I had completely forgotten about that.

汤姆·康拉德：是的，我完全忘记了这一点。

That's a very special book.

那是一本非常特别的书。

There's a couple in that series too.

该系列中也有一对。

Lenny: Yeah, I think I only read the first one.

莱尼：是的，我想我只读了第一本。

Also, Three-Body Problem is the other one that I always think about.

另外，《三体》是我一直在思考的另一个问题。

It's come up a couple of times on this podcast.

它在这个播客上出现过几次。

Let's move on to the next question.

让我们继续下一个问题。

Do you have a favorite recent movie or a TV show?

您最近有最喜欢的电影或电视节目吗？

Tom Conrad: I consume a lot of video content, both stuff that I'm very proud to talk about and stuff that I'm less proud to talk about, but I really liked the new Damon Lindelof show that's on Peacock called Mrs. Davis.

汤姆·康拉德：我观看了很多视频内容，既有我非常自豪谈论的内容，也有我不太自豪谈论的内容，但我真的很喜欢 Peacock 上的新达蒙·林德洛夫 (Damon Lindelof) 节目，名为《戴维斯夫人》。

So Lindelof, of course, from Lost and the new Watchmen on HBO, and Mrs. Davis is about an AI that you wear in your ear, like the HER AI and a nun that is hell-bent on the AI's destruction, and it reads like an early Coen brothers movie.

当然，《迷失》和 HBO 的《新守望者》中的《林德洛夫》和《戴维斯夫人》讲述的是一个戴在耳朵上的人工智能，就像 HER AI 一样，还有一个一心想要摧毁人工智能的修女，读起来就像科恩兄弟早期的电影。

It's super darkly funny and really, really thoughtful and unlike too much streaming, I think it's seven episodes, and it is a perfectly encapsulated story that has a beginning, middle, and an end and doesn't need to ever have another episode.

它超级黑暗有趣，真的非常深思熟虑，不像太多的流媒体，我认为它有七集，这是一个完美封装的故事，有开头、中间和结尾，不需要再有另一集。

It's amazing.

太棒了。

Get yourself a Peacock subscription for at least a month to watch Mrs. Davis.

订阅 Peacock 至少一个月，观看《戴维斯夫人》。

Lenny: Favorite interview question you like to ask candidates that you're interviewing?

Lenny：您最喜欢问正在面试的候选人的面试问题是什么？

Tom Conrad: There are two things about interviews.

汤姆·康拉德：采访有两件事。

The first is I always encourage people when they're thinking about their interview questions to take any question that they're tempted to pull from their own current experience with the goal of trying to, how would this person solve this thing that I'm working through right now?

首先，我总是鼓励人们在考虑面试问题时，从自己当前的经历中提出任何问题，目的是尝试解决这个问题，这个人将如何解决我现在正在解决的问题？

Because just causing the other person to speculate and oftentimes about your own business, I think you know really well that they don't actually know anything about, it creates this imbalance between the interviewer and the interviewee that feels out of sync with how I think about the collaborative nature of a great interview.

因为仅仅让别人猜测你自己的事情，我想你很清楚他们实际上一无所知，这会造成面试官和受访者之间的不平衡，这与我对一次伟大面试的协作性质的看法不同步。

So I tell people that almost every interview question should start with, "Tell me about a time in your career when..." to give them permission or to set their expectation that I'm asking them to tell me about something they've actually done that is relevant to the topic that I'm probing.

因此，我告诉人们，几乎每个面试问题都应该以“告诉我你职业生涯中的某个时刻......”开头，以给予他们许可或设定他们的期望，即我要求他们告诉我他们实际做过的与我正在探讨的主题相关的事情。

Tom Conrad: So that's just a structural thing that I try to do.

汤姆·康拉德：所以这只是我尝试做的一个结构性的事情。

And then usually towards the end of the interview, I ask almost everybody, "Imagine that you had a really great day at work.

然后通常在采访结束时，我会问几乎每个人，“想象一下你在工作中度过了非常愉快的一天。

What was it that you did on that day?" Because what I'm trying to figure out is left to their own devices, what do they go to naturally because it rewards them?

那天你做了什么？”因为我想弄清楚的是他们自己的设备，他们自然会去做什么，因为这会奖励他们？

Because I think it's really important to find the highest best use of everyone you hire.

因为我认为找到你雇用的每个人的最高最佳用途非常重要。

And sometimes you can get a little bit to the bottom of what's the highest best use if you understand the things where there's a natural reward mechanism because it's like, "Well, I had this great day.

有时，如果你了解存在自然奖励机制的事物，你就可以稍微了解什么是最高的最佳用途，因为它就像，“好吧，我度过了美好的一天。

I'm going to do more of that tomorrow." "What was the thing?" And it's just pretty illuminating.

明天我会做更多这样的事情。” “到底是怎么回事？”这非常有启发性。

Lenny: Is there a favorite product you've recently discovered that you really love?

Lenny：有没有您最近发现的最喜欢且真正喜欢的产品？

Tom Conrad: I have bought every pair of headphones on the planet, in part because Apple's headphones do not stay in my ears.

汤姆·康拉德：我买了地球上的每一副耳机，部分原因是苹果的耳机不会留在我的耳朵里。

I've sneezed one across the room, I've lost one down a drainpipe.

我打过一个喷嚏穿过房间，我还把一个掉进了排水管。

They don't stay, none of them, the wired ones, the not wired ones, the in-ear ones, and it's left me feeling honestly like I am some kind of anatomical freak.

它们不会留下来，没有一个，有线的，不有线的，入耳式的，这让我诚实地感觉自己是某种解剖学上的怪胎。

I look at other people wearing them, I'm like, "What is going on with their ear that it's just staying there perfect?" It seems inconceivable to me.

我看着其他戴着它们的人，我想，“他们的耳朵怎么了，一直保持完美？”这对我来说似乎不可思议。

Nonetheless, I have a pair of AirPods Pro's that I want to love and put up with the fact that I'm going to drop them, lose them, sneeze them across the room.

尽管如此，我还是有一对我想要喜欢的 AirPods Pro，并忍受我会把它们掉在地上、丢失、在房间里打喷嚏的事实。

Tom Conrad: But recently I came across this product from a company called Eartune that they're replacement tips and they just have the littlest bit of compression foam on them.

Tom Conrad：但最近我发现了一家名为 Eartune 的公司生产的这款产品，它们是替换头，上面只有一点点压缩泡沫。

They don't make the AirPods so big that they won't fit in the recharging case or anything, and they work.

他们并没有把 AirPods 做得太大，以至于无法放入充电盒或其他任何东西，而且它们可以正常工作。

Miraculously, they stay in my ear.

奇迹般地，它们留在了我的耳朵里。

And Apple has this feature called Size Fit or something, go in settings, find your AirPods, scroll all the way down in the settings, and you can run this test where they play some audio and they tell you how good the seal is.

苹果有一个名为 Size Fit 之类的功能，进入设置，找到你的 AirPods，在设置中一直向下滚动，然后你可以运行这个测试，他们会播放一些音频，然后告诉你密封性有多好。

And that revealed that my right ear is weirder than my left ear.

这表明我的右耳比左耳更奇怪。

So I actually have to use different tips in either sizes.

所以我实际上必须使用两种尺寸的不同尖端。

Suddenly this sounds like a vaguely disgusting conversation that we're having.

突然间，这听起来像是我们正在进行的一场令人厌恶的谈话。

Anyway, I'm just really thrilled about my ability to wear Apple's AirPods after all these years.

不管怎样，这么多年过去了，我对能够佩戴苹果的 AirPods 感到非常兴奋。

Lenny: I think what we're learning is you are a mutant, your ears are different.

莱尼：我认为我们了解到的是你是一个变种人，你的耳朵是不同的。

Cool.

凉爽的。

We'll link to that product in the show notes.

我们将在展会说明中链接到该产品。

Lenny: Do you have a favorite life motto that you often come back to or share with friends, either in work or in life that you find useful?

Lenny：你有没有最喜欢的人生格言，无论是在工作中还是在生活中，你经常回顾或与朋友分享，并且觉得有用？

Tom Conrad: You can't be a product person without having an eye rolly Charles Eames quote that's at the center of your existence.

汤姆·康拉德（Tom Conrad）：如果没有查尔斯·伊姆斯（Charles Eames）那句令人翻白眼的名言，你就不可能成为一名产品人员，而这句话是你存在的核心。

And for me, the Charles Eames quote is, "The details are not the details.

对我来说，查尔斯·埃姆斯的名言是：“细节并非细节。

They make the design." And I just really absolutely believe that, that the devil is in the details when you're a product designer and be uninterested in nuance at your peril.

他们负责设计。”我真的绝对相信，当你是一名产品设计师时，如果你对细微差别不感兴趣，那么细节决定成败。

Lenny: Final question.

莱尼：最后一个问题。

You worked with the creator of the GIF format.

您与 GIF 格式的创建者一起工作。

How does he pronounce, giff or jiff?

他怎么发音，giff 还是 jiff？

Tom Conrad: Yeah.

汤姆·康拉德：是的。

So before all of this, I worked at a company called CompuServe when I was in high school.

因此，在这一切之前，我在高中时曾在一家名为 CompuServe 的公司工作。

Lenny: CompuServe, I used CompuServe.

莱尼：CompuServe，我用过CompuServe。

I didn't know that.

我不知道。

That's amazing.

太棒了。

Tom Conrad: There was a guy on the team named Steve Wilhite who invented Graphics Interchange Format, GIF, and he was a straight out of central casting, 1960s neck beard programmer type, and the first I had ever encountered and very prickly.

Tom Conrad：团队中有一个叫 Steve Wilhite 的人，他发明了图形交换格式（GIF），他是一个典型的 20 世纪 60 年代颈胡子程序员类型，也是我遇到的第一个，非常容易生气。

And it's crazy, but at the time, Steve would take all comers in the fight that it was pronounced jiff.

这很疯狂，但在当时，史蒂夫会带着所有人一起战斗，把它发音为“jiff”。

Now he's obviously wrong.

现在他显然错了。

It's obviously pronounced giff.

很明显发音是giff。

It's crazy to me now 35 years later, this is still a topic that pops up on the internet every once in a while.

35 年后的今天，这对我来说很疯狂，这仍然是互联网上偶尔出现的一个话题。

It's somehow like Zelig, I cross paths with the guy who created Graphics Interchange Format and I know his opinion on the topic even though it's an unpopular one.

这有点像 Zelig，我与创建图形交换格式的人有过接触，我知道他对这个主题的看法，尽管它不受欢迎。

Lenny: Got it.

莱尼：明白了。

So he likes jiff, but you agree it's giff?

所以他喜欢 jiff，但你同意这是 giff 吗？

Tom Conrad: It's definitely giff.

汤姆·康拉德：这绝对是gif。

It's obviously giff.

这明显是gif啊

Lenny: Okay, great.

莱尼：好的，太好了。

We're on the same page.

我们在同一页面上。

We've decided.

我们决定了。

Let it be known.

让大家知道。

Lenny: Tom, we've talked about successes, we've talked about failures, mental health, general health, all kinds of awesome stories.

莱尼：汤姆，我们谈论过成功，我们谈论过失败，心理健康，总体健康，各种精彩的故事。

Two final questions.

最后两个问题。

Where can folks find you online if they want to reach out and maybe ask some other questions that I didn't ask, and how can listeners be useful to you?

如果人们想联系你，或者问一些我没有问过的其他问题，他们可以在哪里找到你？听众如何对你有用？

Tom Conrad: I'm @tconrad on all the socials, from Twitter to Threads to Instagram.

Tom Conrad：我在所有社交媒体上都是@tconrad，从 Twitter 到 Threads 再到 Instagram。

My DMs are open everywhere, and I would absolutely be delighted to hear from any of your listeners on any topic that they choose.

我的私信在任何地方都是开放的，我绝对很高兴听到任何听众就他们选择的任何主题发表意见。

And what can you do for me?

你能为我做什么？

I would love for folks to download Zero and give it a try and send me some feedback about what we're doing right and what we're doing wrong, and we'd love to have our little product be part of your life.

我希望人们下载 Zero 并尝试一下，并向我发送一些有关我们做对和做错的反馈，我们希望让我们的小产品成为您生活的一部分。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

Tom, thank you so much for being here.

汤姆，非常感谢你来到这里。

Lenny: Bye everyone.

莱尼：大家再见。

Thank you so much for listening.

非常感谢您的聆听。

If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.

如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.

您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。