A framework for finding product-market fit | Todd Jackson (First Round Capital)
Todd Jackson: Finding product-market fit is the single most important thing that your startup does in the first three years, and it's just underexplored and it's just underexplained as a topic.
托德·杰克逊（Todd Jackson）：寻找产品与市场的契合度是你的初创公司在前三年所做的最重要的事情，但它只是未被充分探索，也没有被充分解释为一个主题。
Lenny Rachitsky: You've been working on a product-market fit framework.
Lenny Rachitsky：您一直致力于产品市场契合框架的研究。
Todd Jackson: We've published dozens of articles on the First Round Review, and we have found a very consistent set of patterns, demand satisfaction, and efficiency.
托德·杰克逊：我们已经发表了数十篇关于第一轮审查的文章，我们发现了一组非常一致的模式、需求满意度和效率。
But the interesting thing is that you don't go for all three of them from the very beginning.
但有趣的是，你并不是从一开始就同时考虑这三个因素。
Lenny Rachitsky: There's essentially four levels of product-market fit: nascent, developing, strong, extreme.
Lenny Rachitsky：产品与市场的契合度基本上有四个级别：新生、发展中、强大、极端。
Todd Jackson: Roughly, 60% are never going to get past L2.
Todd Jackson：粗略地说，60% 的人永远无法通过 L2。
Lenny Rachitsky: These four Ps is essentially what you should try to change if you're stuck.
Lenny Rachitsky：如果你陷入困境，这四个 P 本质上是你应该尝试改变的。
Todd Jackson: You've got the persona, the problem, the promise, and the product.
托德·杰克逊：你已经有了角色、问题、承诺和产品。
Lattice kept the first one but changed the others.
莱迪思保留了第一个，但改变了其他的。
Vanta changed all four.
万塔改变了这四个人。
Lenny Rachitsky: Hearing level three tells me level two is basically your pivot from: I'm just grinding, selling, pitching.
Lenny Rachitsky：第三级听力告诉我，第二级基本上是你的支点：我只是在打磨、销售、推销。
Todd Jackson: This is where it starts to get fun.
托德·杰克逊：这就是它开始变得有趣的地方。
Lenny Rachitsky: Today my guest is Todd Jackson.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：今天我的客人是托德·杰克逊。
Todd is a partner at the legendary VC firm, First Round Capital.
托德是传奇风险投资公司 First Round Capital 的合伙人。
I rarely have VCs on this podcast, but as Todd shares at the top of this episode, Todd is a very special VC.
我很少在这个播客中邀请风险投资人，但正如托德在本集开头所分享的那样，托德是一位非常特别的风险投资人。
Prior to moving into venture, he was product lead for Gmail for four years.
在进入风险投资领域之前，他曾担任 Gmail 产品主管四年。
He was product manager of Facebook's newsfeed, photos and groups, including leading a major redesign of the newsfeed.
他曾担任 Facebook 新闻源、照片和群组的产品经理，包括领导对新闻源的重大重新设计。
He's also a director of product management at Twitter and VP of product and design at Dropbox.
他还是 Twitter 的产品管理总监以及 Dropbox 的产品和设计副总裁。
Lenny Rachitsky: He's also a founder and sold his company to Twitter.
Lenny Rachitsky：他也是一位创始人，并将自己的公司卖给了 Twitter。
This episode is a very different and special kind of episode.
这一集是非常不同且特殊的一集。
Todd and the team at First Round have spent the last year looking at all of their data and the journeys of the hundreds of startups that they've worked with over the years.
Todd 和 First Round 团队去年花了一年的时间研究了他们的所有数据以及多年来与他们合作的数百家初创公司的历程。
And through that, have put together a very practical and very actionable framework to help founders find product-market fit.
通过这一过程，我们建立了一个非常实用且可操作的框架，以帮助创始人找到产品与市场的契合点。
They're turning this framework into a three-month program for founders, and in this conversation, Todd shares an exclusive peek into the program, in particular, the stages of product-market fit.
他们正在将这个框架转变为针对创始人的为期三个月的计划，在这次对话中，托德分享了对该计划的独家了解，特别是产品与市场契合的阶段。
Lenny Rachitsky: We talk about how to know which stage you're in, what to do if you're stuck in that stage, and also what you can change in order to get unstuck.
Lenny Rachitsky：我们讨论如何知道您处于哪个阶段，如果您陷入该阶段该怎么办，以及您可以进行哪些更改以摆脱困境。
If you're a founder or building a new product within a company and feeling like you're not making as much progress as you'd hope, you will find tremendous value in this conversation.
如果您是创始人或在公司内开发新产品，并且感觉自己没有取得预期的进展，那么您会在这次对话中发现巨大的价值。
With that, I bring you Todd Jackson after a short word from our sponsors.
在我们的赞助商简短发言后，我为您带来了托德·杰克逊。
And if you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube.
如果您喜欢这个播客，请不要忘记订阅并在您最喜欢的播客应用程序或 YouTube 中关注它。
It's the best way to avoid missing feature episodes and it helps the podcast tremendously.
这是避免错过专题节目的最佳方式，并且对播客有很大帮助。
Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by WorkOS.
Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 WorkOS 为您带来。
If you're building a SaaS app, at some point, your customers will start asking for enterprise features like SAML authentication and SCIM provisioning.
如果您正在构建 SaaS 应用程序，那么在某些时候，您的客户将开始要求提供 SAML 身份验证和 SCIM 配置等企业功能。
That's where WorkOS comes in, making it fast and painless to add enterprise features to your app.
这就是 WorkOS 的用武之地，它可以快速、轻松地将企业功能添加到您的应用程序中。
Their APIs are easy to understand so that you can ship quickly and get back to building other features.
他们的 API 易于理解，因此您可以快速交付并继续构建其他功能。
And hundreds of other companies are already powered by WorkOS, including ones you probably know like Vercel, Webflow and Loom.
还有数百家其他公司已经由 WorkOS 提供支持，其中包括您可能知道的 Vercel、Webflow 和 Loom 等公司。
Lenny Rachitsky: WorkOS also recently launched AuthKit, a complete authentication and user management service.
Lenny Rachitsky：WorkOS 最近还推出了 AuthKit，这是一个完整的身份验证和用户管理服务。
It's essentially a modern alternative to Auth0, but with better pricing and more flexible APIs.
它本质上是 Auth0 的现代替代品，但具有更好的定价和更灵活的 API。
AuthKit's design is stunning out of the box, and you can also fully customize it to fit your app's brand.
AuthKit 的设计开箱即用，令人惊叹，您还可以完全自定义它以适合您的应用程序品牌。
It's an effortless experience from your first user, all the way to your largest enterprise customer.
从您的第一个用户一直到您最大的企业客户，这都是一种轻松的体验。
Best of all, AuthKit is free for any developer up to one million users.
最重要的是，AuthKit 对任何开发者（最多 100 万用户）都是免费的。
Check it out at workos.com/lenny to learn more.
请访问 workos.com/lenny 以了解更多信息。
That's workos.com/lenny.
那是workos.com/lenny。
Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by Eppo.
Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 Eppo 为您带来。
Eppo is a next-generation A/B testing and feature management platform built by alums of Airbnb and Snowflake for modern growth teams.
Eppo 是由 Airbnb 和 Snowflake 的校友为现代增长团队构建的下一代 A/B 测试和功能管理平台。
Companies like Twitch, Miro, ClickUp and DraftKings rely on Eppo to power their experiments.
Twitch、Miro、ClickUp 和 DraftKings 等公司依靠 Eppo 来支持他们的实验。
Experimentation is increasingly essential for driving growth and for understanding the performance of new features.
实验对于推动增长和了解新功能的性能越来越重要。
And Eppo helps you increase experimentation velocity while unlocking rigorous deep analysis in a way that no other commercial tool does.
Eppo 可以帮助您提高实验速度，同时以其他商业工具无法做到的方式解锁严格的深度分析。
When I was at Airbnb, one of the things that I loved most was our experimentation platform where I could set up experiments easily, troubleshoot issues, and analyze performance all on my own.
当我在 Airbnb 时，我最喜欢的事情之一就是我们的实验平台，我可以在其中轻松设置实验、解决问题并自行分析性能。
Lenny Rachitsky: Eppo does all that and more with advanced statistical methods that can help you shave weeks off experiment time, and accessible UI for diving deeper into performance, and out-of-the-box reporting that helps you avoid annoying, prolonged analytic cycles.
Lenny Rachitsky：Eppo 通过先进的统计方法（可以帮助您缩短实验时间）、可访问的 UI（可以更深入地了解性能）以及开箱即用的报告（可以帮助您避免烦人的、延长的分析周期）来实现所有这些以及更多功能。
Eppo also makes it easy for you to share experiment insights with your team, sparking new ideas for the A/B testing flywheel.
Eppo 还使您可以轻松地与您的团队分享实验见解，激发 A/B 测试飞轮的新想法。
Eppo powers experimentation across every use case, including product, growth, machine learning, monetization, and email marketing.
Eppo 为每个用例提供实验支持，包括产品、增长、机器学习、货币化和电子邮件营销。
Check out Eppo at geteppo.com/lenny and 10 X your experiment velocity.
请访问 geteppo.com/lenny 查看 Eppo，了解 10 倍的实验速度。
That's geteppo.com/lenny.
那是 geteppo.com/lenny。
Todd, thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast.
托德，非常感谢您来到这里，欢迎来到播客。
Todd Jackson: Lenny, I'm excited to be here.
托德·杰克逊：莱尼，我很高兴来到这里。
Thank you for having me.
谢谢你有我。
Lenny Rachitsky: So first of all, just to mention you're a VC, which is very rare for this podcast.
Lenny Rachitsky：首先，我要提一下你是一名风险投资人，这对于这个播客来说是非常罕见的。
But you're a very special VC, you have a deep background in product, and I thought it might be helpful just to give a little bit of context on your product background, your product bona fides so people will get a real sense of just how legit you are as a product thinker.
但你是一位非常特别的风险投资家，你在产品方面有深厚的背景，我认为提供一些关于你的产品背景和你的产品真实性的背景可能会有所帮助，这样人们就会真正感受到你作为产品思考者的合法性。
Todd Jackson: Yeah, you got it.
托德·杰克逊：是的，你明白了。
So I am a VC.
所以我是一名风险投资家。
I'm a partner at First Round Capital now, and I've been at First Round for four years.
我现在是First Round Capital的合伙人，在First Round已经四年了。
But I was not a VC before First Round.
但在 First Round 之前我并不是一名 VC。
So I started a company in 2013 called Cover, and that was actually funded by First Round 11 years ago.
所以我在 2013 年创办了一家名为 Cover 的公司，这实际上是 11 年前由 First Round 资助的。
That's how I got to know First Round.
就这样我认识了第一轮。
And before that, I had worked on Gmail as the product lead in the early days, early 2000s and at Facebook.
在此之前，我曾在 2000 年代初期和 Facebook 担任 Gmail 产品主管。
Todd Jackson: And then I started Cover, and we ended up selling Cover to Twitter in 2014.
托德·杰克逊：然后我创办了 Cover，最终在 2014 年将 Cover 卖给了 Twitter。
And I worked on a bunch of different products at Twitter.
我在 Twitter 开发了很多不同的产品。
And then I was the VP of product and design at Dropbox.
然后我担任 Dropbox 的产品和设计副总裁。
That was 2015 to 2018.
那是2015年到2018年。
So I have always loved product, and that's actually the reason now that I love being a seed stage VC because I love investing at the early stage founders who are pre-product-market fit and then helping them get there.
所以我一直热爱产品，这实际上就是我现在喜欢成为种子阶段风险投资家的原因，因为我喜欢投资于产品市场前适合的早期创始人，然后帮助他们实现目标。
And I just love doing that over and over again.
我就是喜欢一遍又一遍地这样做。
Lenny Rachitsky: I feel like we could have a whole other podcast episode on why you decided to move into venture versus staying in product.
Lenny Rachitsky：我觉得我们可以再制作一集播客来解释为什么你决定进入风险投资领域而不是留在产品领域。
Lenny Rachitsky: But we're going to stay focused.
Lenny Rachitsky：但我们将保持专注。
So the reason we're here is that for over a year, you've been working on a product-market fit framework, essentially, a framework to help founders and product teams find product-market fit, which we should talk about this.
所以我们在这里的原因是，一年多来，你们一直在研究产品市场契合框架，本质上是一个帮助创始人和产品团队找到产品市场契合的框架，我们应该讨论这个。
But this is the most important thing you've got to get right as a founder in a product team is finding product-market fit.
但作为产品团队的创始人，最重要的事情就是找到产品与市场的契合点。
I got a peek at this framework.
我看了一眼这个框架。
I love it.
我喜欢它。
I love the way you've structured it, the way you're thinking about it.
我喜欢你构建它的方式，以及你思考它的方式。
Lenny Rachitsky: So what we're going to do today is walk through this framework in depth.
Lenny Rachitsky：所以我们今天要做的就是深入探讨这个框架。
First, I just want to spend a few minutes on setting a little context just so people understand who this is for and how to think about this.
首先，我只想花几分钟来设置一些背景信息，以便人们了解这是为谁以及如何思考这个问题。
So maybe a first question is just why do you believe people need a framework for finding product-market fit?
因此，也许第一个问题是，为什么您认为人们需要一个框架来寻找产品与市场的契合度？
And just also, if you want to touch on why is product-market fit so important?
另外，如果您想谈谈为什么产品与市场的契合度如此重要？
Why is that something people should even be thinking about?
为什么这是人们应该思考的事情？
Todd Jackson: The thing about product-market fit is that I find it's mysterious to a lot of people, and people tend to think about it purely as an art rather than a science.
托德·杰克逊：关于产品市场契合度的问题是，我发现它对很多人来说很神秘，人们倾向于将其纯粹视为一门艺术而不是一门科学。
And all the advice that you find out there on the internet is very general when it comes to product-market fit.
当涉及到产品市场契合度时，您在互联网上找到的所有建议都非常笼统。
You'll know it when you see it, you'll know it when you have it.
当你看到它时你就会知道它，当你拥有它时你就会知道它。
It's not specific.
这并不具体。
And there's so many other startup topics where there is good content on the internet like hiring your first salesperson, running board meetings, stuff that is specific and tactical.
互联网上还有很多其他创业主题的好内容，例如雇用第一位销售人员、召开董事会会议以及具体和战术性的内容。
But there isn't that much content around product-market fit that is that specific.
但关于产品市场契合度的具体内容并不多。
Todd Jackson: And so I think that's actually why Rahul from Superhuman is well-known for his approach to finding product-market fit.
托德·杰克逊：所以我认为这实际上就是为什么《超人》中的拉胡尔因其寻找产品与市场契合度的方法而闻名的原因。
That was published on the First Round Review in 2018, and it was immediately popular and interesting to people.
这篇文章发表在2018年的第一轮评论上，立即受到人们的欢迎和关注。
And I think the reason is because it was specific and because it was tactical and it brought a little bit of the science to something that people thought was just an art.
我认为原因是因为它是具体的，因为它是战术性的，它给人们认为只是一门艺术的东西带来了一点科学。
And I think it's why your content is really popular too, Lenny.
我认为这就是为什么你的内容也很受欢迎，莱尼。
Todd Jackson: You and I worked on this product validation article together a little while back, and the seven part series that you did on B2B SaaS companies and the PMF benchmarking data that you had, I think it was how long it took to get to a product and a customer and to product-market fit, that was super well-read.
Todd Jackson：您和我不久前一起撰写了这篇产品验证文章，以及您针对 B2B SaaS 公司所做的七部分系列文章以及您拥有的 PMF 基准数据，我认为这是获得产品和客户以及产品市场契合度所需的时间，这非常值得阅读。
And there just isn't that much good specific content about this.
而且关于此的具体内容并不多。
But like you said, product-market fit is the single most important thing that your startup does in the first three years and it's just underexplored, it's underexplained as a topic.
但就像你说的，产品与市场的契合度是你的初创公司在前三年所做的最重要的事情，但它只是没有得到充分的探索，它作为一个主题没有得到充分的解释。
Todd Jackson: So we felt this was a very important thing to do, something worth focusing on.
托德·杰克逊：所以我们觉得这是一件非常重要的事情，值得关注。
And I've personally talked to hundreds of founders about this topic.
我亲自与数百位创始人讨论过这个话题。
We've published dozens of articles on the First Round Review.
我们已经在第一轮评审中发表了数十篇文章。
We call this our Paths to Product-Market Fit Series where we interview founders about the early days.
我们将此称为“产品与市场契合之路系列”，在该系列中，我们采访了创始人有关早期的情况。
And I'm just always interested in what are the patterns.
我总是对这些模式感兴趣。
If you talk to enough successful founders, and in this case, it can be enterprise founders, and you ask them, "What did you do in the first six to nine months of running your company, of starting your company?
如果你与足够多的成功创始人交谈，在这种情况下，可能是企业创始人，你问他们，“在经营公司、创办公司的前六到九个月里，你做了什么？
What patterns emerged from that?" And we have found a very consistent set of patterns, and that's what we decided to base our framework around.
由此产生了什么模式？”我们发现了一组非常一致的模式，这就是我们决定将其作为框架的基础。
Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
And I think you're at such an interesting Venn diagram of exposure to develop something like this.
我认为你正在使用一个非常有趣的维恩图来开发这样的东西。
One, you have a deep product background, you started a company, you see tons of startups going through the journey, many succeeding, many not.
第一，你有深厚的产品背景，你创办了一家公司，你看到大量的初创公司正在经历这个旅程，许多成功，许多失败。
So I get why one, you wanted to do this and why I think this is going to be so valuable to a lot of people.
所以我明白为什么你想这样做，以及为什么我认为这对很多人来说如此有价值。
You talked briefly about why product-market fit is so important, and maybe it might be helpful just to share a little bit more just why is this something people should be so obsessed with and why did you spend so much time developing this?
您简要地谈到了为什么产品与市场的契合度如此重要，也许分享更多一点可能会有所帮助，为什么人们应该如此痴迷于此，以及为什么您花了这么多时间来开发它？
Todd Jackson: I think as a founder, there are so many things you have to do.
托德·杰克逊：我认为作为创始人，有很多事情要做。
You have to pick a market, you have to find a co-founder, you have to hire a team, you have to raise funding, you have to build a product, you have to sell a product.
你必须选择一个市场，你必须找到一个联合创始人，你必须雇用一个团队，你必须筹集资金，你必须构建一个产品，你必须销售一个产品。
And so sometimes it gets lost that actually, the only thing that matters in the first couple years is finding product-market fit and actually, what we define as extreme product-market fit, and I'll go into that.
因此，有时人们会忘记，实际上，头几年唯一重要的事情是找到产品与市场的契合度，实际上，我们定义为极端的产品与市场契合度，我将对此进行讨论。
Because if you find extreme product-market fit, the momentum just carries you, and the market pulls you along.
因为如果你发现产品与市场极端契合，动力就会带你走，市场也会拉着你走。
And it's easy to know what to build because you're building the thing that your customers want and it's motivating as a team.
而且很容易知道要构建什么，因为您正在构建客户想要的东西，并且它可以激励团队。
It's easy to hire people, everything becomes easier if you find product-market fit, it is the thing that propels the company.
雇用人员很容易，如果您找到适合市场的产品，一切都会变得更容易，这是推动公司发展的因素。
Todd Jackson: And so we are a seed stage venture firm.
托德·杰克逊：所以我们是一家种子期风险投资公司。
We tend to work with very early founders who are pre-product-market fit.
我们倾向于与非常早期的创始人合作，他们是产品市场前的适应者。
And the hard truth about it is that most of them don't get past the first couple levels of it.
残酷的事实是，他们中的大多数人都没有通过它的前几个级别。
The majority of startups do not get past, what we call, level one product-market fit or level two product-market fit.
大多数初创公司都无法通过我们所说的第一级产品市场契合度或第二级产品市场契合度。
And I'll go through and define all that stuff.
我将详细介绍并定义所有这些内容。
They get stuck at one of those first couple levels.
他们陷入了最初几个级别中的一个。
And if they can unlock the right product and the right way to explain it to a customer and make a customer deeply satisfied, and there's enough customers out there like that, it just pulls the whole thing along.
如果他们能够解锁正确的产品并以正确的方式向客户解释它并让客户深感满意，并且有足够多的这样的客户，那么它就会推动整个事情的发展。
Lenny Rachitsky: Who is this framework for specifically?
Lenny Rachitsky：这个框架具体是为谁服务的？
And for people that are listening, how do they know if this is for them or not?
对于正在倾听的人来说，他们如何知道这是否适合他们？
Todd Jackson: This is for early B2B founders, and specifically founders who are doing something that is more sales-led than bottom-up.
托德·杰克逊（Todd Jackson）：这是针对早期 B2B 创始人的，特别是那些做更多以销售为主导而非自下而上的事情的创始人。
I think bottom-up is its own world.
我认为自下而上有它自己的世界。
It's closer to consumer product development in my mind.
在我看来，它更接近消费产品开发。
And I have done consumer products.
我也做过消费品。
Consumer product, I think there is a little bit more alchemy involved.
消费产品，我认为其中涉及更多的炼金术。
It's about having great taste and finding the right thing at the right time and it's like catching lightning in a bottle.
这是关于拥有高品味并在正确的时间找到正确的东西，这就像在瓶子里捕捉闪电一样。
Todd Jackson: I think the good thing about enterprise, and specifically sales-led B2B, is that there is more science to it.
Todd Jackson：我认为企业，特别是销售主导的 B2B 的好处在于它有更多的科学依据。
And so it is for sales-led B2B founders who are in, let's call it, the first six to nine months of starting their company and want to set the foundation for product-market fit right from the beginning.
对于以销售为主导的 B2B 创始人来说也是如此，他们在公司成立的前六到九个月内，希望从一开始就为产品与市场的契合奠定基础。
Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
Okay.
好的。
So B2B founders, sales-led in the first six to nine months of their journey.
因此，B2B 创始人在其旅程的前六到九个月内以销售为主导。
Awesome.
惊人的。
Lenny Rachitsky: You talked about the science of this.
Lenny Rachitsky：您谈到了这方面的科学性。
I imagine you don't want to overpromise this is going to help you find product-market fit, step one, two, three profit.
我想你不想过度承诺这将帮助你找到产品市场契合度，第一步、第二步、第三步利润。
How do you think about just what the benefits of this are and how people should think about the chance that they will find product-market fit at the end of this journey following this framework?
您如何看待这样做的好处是什么？人们应该如何考虑在遵循此框架的旅程结束时他们找到产品市场契合度的机会？
Todd Jackson: We can't guarantee success here.
托德·杰克逊：我们不能保证这里会成功。
I just want to contextualize that finding extreme product-market fit is very, very hard.
我只是想说明一下，找到极端的产品市场契合度是非常非常困难的。
And what we are trying to do is increase your odds, increase the odds, reduce the role of luck, give you a framework and way of thinking about the things that you need to do.
而我们要做的就是增加你的几率，增加几率，减少运气的作用，给你一个框架和方式来思考你需要做的事情。
And I think that that can increase the odds.
我认为这可以增加可能性。
Like I said earlier, the majority of startups are getting stuck at these first couple levels.
正如我之前所说，大多数初创公司都陷入了最初的几个阶段。
I think if you know what the path looks like and you know what the levers are at your disposal and you know what you need to aim for, I think we can get more of these companies to level three and level four product-market fit, which is where you really want to be and where you have a very valuable company.
我认为，如果你知道这条路是什么样子，你知道你可以使用的杠杆是什么，你知道你需要达到什么目标，我认为我们可以让更多这样的公司达到三级和四级产品市场契合度，这是你真正想要的地方，也是你拥有一家非常有价值的公司的地方。
Lenny Rachitsky: Perfect.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：完美。
Okay, final question.
好的，最后一个问题。
You launched a whole program for founders to go through and learn all of this in depth, many week kind of program.
你们启动了一个完整的计划，让创始人深入了解并学习所有这些，为期数周的计划。
We're going to be covering a lot of it here for folks that want to go a lot deeper and actually go through this program.
我们将在这里为那些想要更深入并实际完成该计划的人们介绍很多内容。
Talk about how they find this and how this program works.
谈论他们如何找到这个以及这个程序如何运作。
Todd Jackson: So we launched a new program, and we call it Product-Market Fit Method.
托德·杰克逊：所以我们推出了一个新计划，我们称之为产品市场契合法。
It is designed, like I said, to help early B2B founders increase the odds of finding product-market fit.
正如我所说，它的目的是帮助早期 B2B 创始人增加找到产品与市场契合点的几率。
It's totally free, it's a very intensive program.
它是完全免费的，是一个非常密集的项目。
You can see all the details at pmf.firstround.com, and the application deadline is May 7th.
您可以在 pmf.firstround.com 查看所有详细信息，申请截止日期为 5 月 7 日。
The program starts on May 29th.
该计划于5月29日开始。
And we actually ran a beta version, a test version of this late last year with 11 founders, I think probably some you know, Lenny, from Stripe and Plaid and Airbnb and Twitter.
去年年底，我们实际上运行了一个 Beta 版本，这是一个测试版本，有 11 位创始人，我想你可能认识一些创始人，Lenny，来自 Stripe、Plaid、Airbnb 和 Twitter。
And the feedback, it was great.
反馈非常棒。
It made me feel very good.
这让我感觉非常好。
Todd Jackson: One of the founders was like, "I feel like these 14 weeks saved me two years of time in what would've been wandering through the desert." And so there's eight sessions in the full program, and the first one is the one we're going to do today.
托德·杰克逊：其中一位创始人说，“我觉得这 14 周为我节省了两年在沙漠中徘徊的时间。”整个计划中有八个会议，第一个会议就是我们今天要做的会议。
So the first session is on what we call the levels of product-market fit.
因此，第一场会议的主题是我们所说的产品市场契合度。
The second one is on customer discovery, and we actually refer to it as dollar-driven discovery.
第二个是关于客户发现，我们实际上将其称为美元驱动的发现。
We get very specific about not just the normal way of doing customer conversations and customer discovery, but how do you find that a customer is willing to pay money for this thing and a lot of money?
我们不仅非常具体地了解进行客户对话和客户发现的正常方式，而且还如何发现客户愿意为这个东西付钱并且愿意花很多钱？
Todd Jackson: We talk about market validation, product positioning.
托德·杰克逊：我们谈论市场验证、产品定位。
We do a section on design partners because I think a lot of founders have questions about that.
我们专门开设了关于设计合作伙伴的部分，因为我认为很多创始人对此都有疑问。
How do I find the right design partners?
如何找到合适的设计合作伙伴？
What's the right way to structure an agreement with them?
与他们签订协议的正确方法是什么？
How do I convert them to paying customers?
如何将他们转化为付费客户？
All that stuff.
所有这些东西。
We talk about product iteration and pivots, and I refer to this stage as the grind, the grind of product iteration.
我们谈论产品迭代和枢轴，我将这个阶段称为磨练，产品迭代的磨练。
And then we spend a ton of time on founder-led sales.
然后我们花费大量时间进行创始人主导的销售。
Todd Jackson: And the reason that we do that is we really like working with very technical founders, builders, people that are either engineering background, product design, data science, people who are builders.
托德·杰克逊：我们这样做的原因是我们真的很喜欢与技术性很强的创始人、构建者、工程背景、产品设计、数据科学、构建者一起工作。
So that's the program in a nutshell.
简而言之，这就是该计划。
And like I said, any founder working on a new B2B SaaS company, welcome to apply.
正如我所说，任何致力于新 B2B SaaS 公司的创始人都欢迎申请。
And then bonus points if you are technical, like I said, if you have a clear product idea or a hypothesis, but that you're less than six to 12 months into building the company.
然后，如果你是技术人员，就像我说的那样，如果你有明确的产品创意或假设，但你建立公司的时间还不到 6 到 12 个月，那就加分。
Lenny Rachitsky: I love how incentives are so aligned here.
Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢这里的激励措施如此一致。
You help companies find product-market fit.
您帮助公司找到产品与市场的契合点。
If First Round does great, everyone does great.
如果第一轮表现出色，那么每个人都会表现出色。
It makes so much sense to build something like this.
构建这样的东西非常有意义。
One thing I can't help but mention or ask about is you said it's an intensive program.
我忍不住提到或询问的一件事是你说这是一个强化项目。
How do you find founders have time to do something like this and also be building their company?
您如何发现创始人有时间做这样的事情并建立他们的公司？
I know this helps them build, but how do you just think about they have so much to do, they have time to do a program like this?
我知道这有助于他们构建，但是你怎么认为他们有这么多事情要做，他们有时间做这样的程序呢？
Todd Jackson: The way that we think about it is that the program roughly takes about 10 hours a week for each founder, and it's 10 hours of work that you were going to be doing anyway.
Todd Jackson：我们的想法是，每个创始人每周大约需要花 10 个小时完成该项目，而无论如何，这也是你要做的 10 个小时的工作。
It is literally you're talking to customers, you're improving your positioning, you're doing critical thinking about your market and what you should be building.
从字面上看，您正在与客户交谈，您正在提高您的定位，您正在对您的市场以及您应该构建的产品进行批判性思考。
And so the way I think about it, and the way I've heard from the 11 founders that went through it is it just added structure to what I was doing anyway and it actually made me more efficient.
所以我的想法以及我从经历过这件事的 11 位创始人那里听到的方式是，它只是为我正在做的事情添加了结构，而且实际上让我变得更有效率。
Lenny Rachitsky: Last question, you mentioned that it's free.
Lenny Rachitsky：最后一个问题，您提到它是免费的。
How does that work?
这是如何运作的？
How does that work for everyone?
这对每个人来说如何运作？
Todd Jackson: So it's 100% free and literally, it costs you $0.
Todd Jackson：所以它是 100% 免费的，实际上，它花费你 0 美元。
We give you $0, we own 0% of your company.
我们给你 0 美元，我们拥有你公司 0% 的股份。
And it's pretty different than I think a lot of other programs out there.
它与我认为的许多其他程序有很大不同。
And this is just something we do.
这就是我们所做的事情。
Over the years, we've run First Round Angel Track, which I know you were in, Lenny.
多年来，我们一直在举办第一轮天使赛道，我知道你也参加过，莱尼。
We've run the First Round Review for 10 years.
我们进行第一轮审查已经有 10 年了。
We make these things free and our belief is that you have to create value in the ecosystem.
我们免费提供这些东西，我们相信您必须在生态系统中创造价值。
Todd Jackson: You have to put stuff out in the world that is useful, and if you can create that value, create enough value with the audience, then you'll be able to capture that value at some point.
托德·杰克逊：你必须向世界推出有用的东西，如果你能够创造这种价值，为观众创造足够的价值，那么你将能够在某个时候捕捉到这种价值。
And so we think there's a win-win here.
所以我们认为这是双赢的。
We get an inside look at some of tomorrow's great companies and they get an inside look at First Round.
我们深入了解了一些明天的伟大公司，他们也了解了第一轮融资。
Lenny Rachitsky: Got it.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：明白了。
So companies don't have to take money from you guys to be a part of this program.
因此，公司不必从你们那里拿钱来参与这个计划。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, let's get into it.
Lenny Rachitsky：好的，让我们开始吧。
Let's talk about this framework.
我们来谈谈这个框架。
Maybe just as a broad strokes overview, how does this framework work?
也许只是作为一个粗略的概述，这个框架是如何工作的？
How do companies find product-market fit?
公司如何找到产品与市场的契合点？
Todd Jackson: So the framework starts with a very simple idea that is product-market fit is not a one-size-fits-all thing, and it doesn't just happen overnight.
托德·杰克逊：因此，该框架从一个非常简单的想法开始，即产品与市场的契合度并不是一刀切的事情，而且它不会在一夜之间发生。
And for B2B companies, specifically, it does tend to follow a repeatable pattern.
特别是对于 B2B 公司来说，它确实倾向于遵循可重复的模式。
And so we start with defining the ultimate goal.
因此，我们从定义最终目标开始。
The ultimate goal is to get to extreme product-market fit.
最终目标是实现产品与市场的极致契合。
And we have a precise definition for this.
我们对此有一个精确的定义。
Let me read it to you.
让我读给你听。
So extreme product-market fit is a state of widespread demand for a product that satisfies a critical need and crucially can be delivered repeatably and efficiently to each customer.
因此，产品与市场的极端契合是指对产品的广泛需求状态，该产品能够满足关键需求，并且最重要的是可以重复且高效地交付给每个客户。
Todd Jackson: And so there's three key ideas in there: demand, satisfaction and efficiency.
托德·杰克逊：所以其中有三个关键思想：需求、满意度和效率。
And I think efficiency is worth highlighting because that's what most people would leave out of their definition.
我认为效率值得强调，因为这是大多数人在他们的定义中忽略的内容。
You talk about like, "Oh, it's a product, people like it.
你会说，“哦，这是一种产品，人们喜欢它。
That's good, that's product-market fit." But if you look, there's products out there.
这很好，这是产品与市场的契合。”但如果你仔细观察，就会发现那里有产品。
I was a big fan of WeWork, as a customer of WeWork.
作为 WeWork 的客户，我是 WeWork 的忠实粉丝。
And I'm a fan of Casper and these other products.
我是 Casper 和其他产品的粉丝。
Those products managed to achieve customer satisfaction and demand, but they never got the efficiency right, and so the whole business just never worked at scale.
这些产品设法实现了客户满意度和需求，但它们从未达到正确的效率，因此整个业务从未大规模运作。
Todd Jackson: And my partner, Brett Berson, at First Round, he gives this example of the $100 vending machine, and I really like this example, which is imagine I built a vending machine and I stuck it in the middle of San Francisco.
托德·杰克逊：我在 First Round 的合作伙伴布雷特·伯森（Brett Berson）给出了这个 100 美元自动售货机的例子，我真的很喜欢这个例子，想象一下我建造了一台自动售货机，然后把它放在旧金山市中心。
And you walk up to this vending machine and you put a dollar in and $100 bill comes out.
你走到这台自动售货机前，投入一美元，就会出来 100 美元的钞票。
And that's the product.
这就是产品。
That would have insane demand.
那将会有疯狂的需求。
There would be a line at that vending machine.
自动售货机前会排起长队。
I think people would be extremely satisfied.
我认为人们会非常满意。
They'd be like, "This is awesome." The retention would be very good.
他们会说，“这太棒了。”保留率会非常好。
I'm sure they would come back tomorrow.
我确信他们明天就会回来。
But the whole thing is it's ridiculous.
但整件事很荒谬。
The whole metaphor is ridiculous because it's just not viable to do something like that.
整个比喻很荒谬，因为这样做是不可行的。
Todd Jackson: And yet you see a lot of startups kind of do this.
托德·杰克逊：然而你看到很多初创公司都在这样做。
They're basically with their products, giving away $2 for $1 and it gets them pretty far.
他们基本上都是用自己的产品，1 美元送 2 美元，这让他们走得很远。
But that's not real product-market fit.
但这并不是真正的产品市场契合度。
And so that's one of the reasons that we think efficiency and how you think about the economic model of what you're doing is very important.
因此，这就是我们认为效率以及您如何看待您正在做的事情的经济模型非常重要的原因之一。
And then this other aspect that I like, which is we have this concept that we call the marginal customer, and the next incremental customer you're going to get for your company, for your product.
然后我喜欢的另一个方面是，我们有一个概念，我们称之为边际客户，以及你将为你的公司、你的产品获得的下一个增量客户。
And if you have product-market fit, and as you are progressing along this journey, the marginal customer should be getting easier and easier and easier to get, easier to acquire them, easier to give them good service with a good product.
如果你的产品与市场契合，并且随着你在这个旅程中不断前进，边际客户应该变得越来越容易，越来越容易获得，更容易获得他们，更容易为他们提供优质产品的优质服务。
Todd Jackson: And that means your efficiency is increasing along the way and your product-market fit is strengthening.
托德·杰克逊：这意味着您的效率正在不断提高，您的产品与市场的契合度正在增强。
So you've got to have all three of those things: demand, satisfaction, efficiency.
所以你必须具备这三样东西：需求、满意度、效率。
But the interesting thing is that you don't go for all three of them at once from the very beginning.
但有趣的是，你不会从一开始就同时考虑这三个因素。
And so product-market fit, it happens in the sequence of levels, it happens over multiple years.
因此，产品与市场的契合，是按级别顺序发生的，是在多年的时间内发生的。
And for the best enterprise companies, I would say they tend to reach extreme product-market fit in roughly four to six years.
对于最好的企业公司来说，我想说他们往往会在大约四到六年内达到极端的产品市场契合度。
There's some variance, but roughly four to six years.
有一些差异，但大约四到六年。
And so we label these four levels.
所以我们标记这四个级别。
We say level one product-market fit is nascent product-market fit.
我们说第一级产品市场契合度是新生的产品市场契合度。
Level two is developing, level three is strong, and level four is extreme.
二级是发达，三级是强，四级是极限。
And that's where you want to get.
这就是你想要达到的目标。
Todd Jackson: And along the way, you're trading off these three dimensions: satisfaction, demand, and efficiency because they're intertwined.
托德·杰克逊：一路上，你要权衡这三个维度：满意度、需求和效率，因为它们是相互交织的。
You could spend a bunch of money on marketing, and that's going to increase your demand, but you're decreasing your efficiency if you do that.
你可以在营销上花很多钱，这会增加你的需求，但如果你这样做，你的效率就会降低。
You can invest a bunch in efficiency and automating a whole bunch of stuff, but that actually might harm the customer experience and you're reducing satisfaction.
您可以在效率上投入大量资金并实现一大堆东西的自动化，但这实际上可能会损害客户体验，并且会降低满意度。
So that's an interesting thing, I think, is you're actually making trade-offs at each level and what you should optimize for at each level is different.
所以我认为这是一件有趣的事情，你实际上在每个级别上进行权衡，并且你应该在每个级别上优化的内容是不同的。
And so we talk about all these signs, whether you're getting stuck at a given level, how do you get unstuck and how do you progress along this path.
因此，我们讨论所有这些迹象，无论您是否陷入某个特定水平，如何摆脱困境以及如何沿着这条道路前进。
Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
And we're going to go through each of these.
我们将逐一讨论这些内容。
And the idea, as a listener, what I'm thinking is you're probably in one of these buckets.
作为一名听众，我的想法是你可能属于其中之一。
What we're trying to do is help you out of that bucket and help you move further up the ladder to the next level.
我们正在努力做的就是帮助您摆脱困境，并帮助您进一步迈向新的水平。
So just to summarize, I have my notes here.
总结一下，我在这里有我的笔记。
So there's essentially four levels of product-market fit, basically, the strength of product-market fit that you have: nascent, developing, strong, extreme.
因此，产品与市场的契合度基本上有四个级别，基本上就是产品与市场契合度的强度：新生的、发展中的、强大的、极端的。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。
And then you have three dimensions within each of these levels: satisfaction, demand, and efficiency.
然后，每个级别都有三个维度：满意度、需求和效率。
We're going to talk about what all these mean and how you use these.
我们将讨论所有这些的含义以及如何使用它们。
Let's talk about level one, nascent product-market fit.
让我们来谈谈第一级，即新生的产品市场契合度。
What does that look like?
那看起来像什么？
What do you do when you're there if you're stuck?
如果你在那里被困住了怎么办？
And what are some examples of companies that felt nascent product-market fit?
有哪些公司感觉产品与市场契合度很高？
Todd Jackson: Yeah.
托德·杰克逊：是的。
Okay, level one, nascent.
好的，一级，新生。
So at this point, you're probably like a pre-seed or seed stage company.
因此，此时，您可能就像一家种子前或种子阶段的公司。
You've got less than 10 people on your team.
您的团队成员不足 10 人。
And at level one, your job is to find three to five customers that have a particular problem that is worth solving and to deliver them a satisfying solution.
在第一级，您的工作是找到三到五个有值得解决的特定问题的客户，并为他们提供令人满意的解决方案。
And you got to pick a problem that is both important and urgent to them.
你必须选择一个对他们来说既重要又紧迫的问题。
Todd Jackson: And the solution that you deliver needs to satisfy some kind of promise that they care deeply about.
托德·杰克逊：您提供的解决方案需要满足他们非常关心的某种承诺。
So of the three dimensions that you just recapped, Lenny, it's satisfaction first, demand second, efficiency last when you're at level one.
所以，在你刚刚回顾的三个维度中，莱尼，当你处于第一级时，满意度第一，需求第二，效率最后。
It's actually okay to be inefficient at this stage if it helps you uncover something that delivers an insanely good customer satisfaction.
事实上，在这个阶段，如果效率低下可以帮助你发现一些可以提供非常好的客户满意度的东西，那也没关系。
And so I think that one of the best examples I can think of that is this company called Vanta.
所以我认为我能想到的最好的例子之一就是这家名为 Vanta 的公司。
Lenny Rachitsky: Love Vanta.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：爱万塔。
Also, a happy sponsor and I'm an investor.
另外，我是一个快乐的赞助商，而我是一个投资者。
What a great example.
多么好的一个例子啊。
Todd Jackson: What a great example.
托德·杰克逊：这是一个很好的例子。
So Vanta was founded in 2016 by Christina Cacioppo, and she had come from Dropbox and we got to work at Dropbox together, which was awesome.
So Vanta 由 Christina Cacioppo 于 2016 年创立，她来自 Dropbox，我们一起在 Dropbox 工作，这太棒了。
She was the PM of Dropbox Paper at that time.
当时她是 Dropbox Paper 的产品经理。
And so Vanta, it's a company that does compliance automation, continuous monitoring.
Vanta 是一家从事合规自动化、持续监控的公司。
And most startups think of Vanta is how you get a SOC 2, but they didn't do that at first.
大多数初创公司认为 Vanta 就是获得 SOC 2 的方式，但他们一开始并没有这样做。
Todd Jackson: And I remember in 2018, Christina and I went on a walk around the South Park neighborhood in San Francisco.
托德·杰克逊：我记得 2018 年，克里斯蒂娜和我在旧金山的南方公园附近散步。
And this was the first time I heard the idea of Vanta.
这是我第一次听到Vanta的想法。
And she had actually, in 2016, 2017, tried a few other ideas.
事实上，她在 2016 年、2017 年尝试过一些其他想法。
She had this smart speaker that would record meetings and it would send meeting summaries over Slack.
她有一个智能扬声器，可以录制会议，并通过 Slack 发送会议摘要。
Lenny Rachitsky: B2B Alexa is what she called it.
Lenny Rachitsky：她称之为 B2B Alexa。
I remember.
我记得。
Todd Jackson: B2B Alexa.
托德·杰克逊：B2B Alexa。
And she had this other idea, something about dropshipping, but she didn't know anything about dropshipping.
她还有另一个想法，一些关于直销业务的想法，但她对直销业务一无所知。
And she had just been in this mode of like, "We're building stuff and then we're seeing if anybody wants it." And then she realized that wasn't working and she changed what she was doing.
她就处于这样的模式，“我们正在建造东西，然后我们看看是否有人想要它。”然后她意识到这不起作用，于是她改变了自己正在做的事情。
And she started talking to potential customers, and she was very interested in the idea of security and why a lot of startups didn't use any security products.
她开始与潜在客户交谈，她对安全概念以及为什么许多初创公司不使用任何安全产品非常感兴趣。
Todd Jackson: And she was talking to security engineers and CISOs and just CTOs and startups.
托德·杰克逊：她正在与安全工程师、首席信息安全官、首席技术官和初创公司交谈。
And she would ask them, "What is the thing you hate most about your job as it relates to security?" And over and over and over they would say, "I hate filling out the security questionnaires.
她会问他们：“在你的工作中，你最讨厌的事情是什么，因为它与安全有关？”他们会一遍又一遍地说：“我讨厌填写安全调查问卷。
I hate doing the compliance audits.
我讨厌进行合规审计。
It's so much grungy manual work.
这是很多肮脏的手工工作。
I'm in there filling out spreadsheets and taking screenshots of my AWS account.
我在那里填写电子表格并截取我的 AWS 账户的屏幕截图。
And the whole thing just doesn't make sense." And she had actually felt this herself when she was on Dropbox Paper and the experience of getting a SOC 2 was onerous.
整件事根本没有意义。”当她使用 Dropbox Paper 时，她自己也确实感受到了这一点，获得 SOC 2 的经历是繁重的。
Todd Jackson: And the reason that she needed to get it is because we wanted to start selling Dropbox Paper into enterprise.
Todd Jackson：她需要获得它的原因是我们想开始向企业销售 Dropbox Paper。
And so she said to me, "There's this pain out there, I think I can solve it, and I think there might be a revenue unlock." And I was like, "What do you mean by that?" And she was like, "Well, I've got these first few customers or design partner, pseudo customers.
所以她对我说：“存在这种痛苦，我想我可以解决它，而且我认为可能会释放收入。”我当时想，“你这是什么意思？”她说，“好吧，我有这些最初的几个客户或设计合作伙伴，伪客户。
It's Segment and Front and Figma." And this is 2017, '18.
这是《Segment》、《Front》和《Figma》。”这是 2017 年 18 年。
So these companies were smaller at the time, not the big companies they are now.
所以这些公司当时规模较小，而不是现在的大公司。
And she was like, "Yeah, they're trying to sell into Fortune 500 companies.
她说：“是的，他们正试图向财富 500 强公司出售产品。
One of them is actually trying to land a Fortune 10 right now.
其中之一实际上正在努力跻身财富十强。
And they said the thing that's holding them back is they don't have compliance certification, they don't have a SOC 2.
他们表示，阻碍他们发展的因素是他们没有合规认证，没有 SOC 2。
Todd Jackson: "And I told them, 'Hey, what if I do that for you?' And they were like, 'Oh, you can just do that?'" And she was like, "Yeah." And she did it, and they landed the deal.
托德·杰克逊：“我告诉他们，‘嘿，如果我为你做那件事呢？’他们说，‘哦，你可以这样做吗？’”她说，“是的。”她做到了，他们就达成了交易。
And it's one of the clearest examples to me of a product that satisfies a promise, but this product is going to unlock revenue for you.
对我来说，这是最明显的产品兑现承诺的例子之一，而且该产品将为您带来收入。
You are going to be able to land this enterprise deal.
您将能够获得这项企业交易。
And so I think they just did a phenomenal job of that.
所以我认为他们在这方面做得非常出色。
And that's what you're looking for when you're at level one, a problem that really matters to three to five customers.
这就是您在第一级时要寻找的问题，这个问题对三到五个客户来说确实很重要。
Lenny Rachitsky: That specific example, I think she delivered a spreadsheet.
Lenny Rachitsky：那个具体的例子，我认为她提供了一个电子表格。
There was no product, she just manually filled out a spreadsheet and gave it to them.
没有产品，她只是手动填写了一份电子表格，然后交给了他们。
Todd Jackson: Completely manual.
托德·杰克逊：完全手动。
She was the one behind the email address posing as the AI, but doing it herself.
她是冒充人工智能的电子邮件地址背后的人，但却是她自己做的。
And I think that's revealing of it's okay to be inefficient at level one, as long as you are delivering incredible satisfaction.
我认为这表明，只要你能提供令人难以置信的满足感，在第一级时效率低下也没关系。
Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, I was just going to say that.
Lenny Rachitsky：是的，我正想说这个。
This is the ultimate example of efficiency is not important, which I love, is what you're pointing out at this step.
这是效率并不重要的最终例子，我喜欢这一点，这就是您在这一步中指出的。
I know you're going to share another example, but just to summarize what this stage feels like from earlier when you talked about, essentially, of less than 10 people, you're trying to find three to five customers.
我知道您将分享另一个例子，但只是为了总结一下您之前谈到的这个阶段的感觉，本质上，不到 10 个人，您正试图找到三到五个客户。
I think that's so important.
我认为这非常重要。
You're not trying to find tens or hundreds, you're just like, "Three to five people." And the customer element, I imagine, you're implying they're paying you money.
你并不是想找到数十或数百人，你只是想“三到五个人”。我想，客户元素是在暗示他们正在付钱给你。
Todd Jackson: Yes, they're paying you money and you're delivering a product that solves a problem for them.
托德·杰克逊：是的，他们付钱给你，而你提供的产品可以为他们解决问题。
Lenny Rachitsky: And the product could be potentially a spreadsheet or super Wizard of Oz at this point even.
Lenny Rachitsky：该产品甚至可能是电子表格或超级绿野仙踪。
Todd Jackson: Yeah, that's okay at this level.
托德·杰克逊：是的，在这个级别上还可以。
Lenny Rachitsky: I know RAMP actually had barely a product when they started selling.
Lenny Rachitsky：我知道 RAMP 在开始销售时实际上几乎没有产品。
Initially, they had someone just updating things behind the scenes on these dashboards.
最初，他们只是让人在幕后更新这些仪表板上的内容。
And then you talked about the problem needs to be important and urgent, which connects to people paying attention to a startup that they don't trust or know anything about because the problem is that important and urgent.
然后你谈到问题必须是重要和紧急的，这与人们关注他们不信任或不了解的初创公司有关，因为问题是如此重要和紧急。
And you also mentioned it has to satisfy a promise you're giving them, "We'll solve SOC 2 for you," and then you actually accomplish that.
您还提到它必须满足您向他们做出的承诺，“我们将为您解决 SOC 2”，然后您才能真正实现这一目标。
Lenny Rachitsky: Is there anything else maybe as a benchmark that tells you you're at this step of product-market fit?
Lenny Rachitsky：还有什么可以作为基准来告诉您您已经处于产品与市场契合的阶段吗？
Todd Jackson: Yeah.
托德·杰克逊：是的。
So like I said, you're pre-seed less than 10 people.
就像我说的，你预选的种子人数少于 10 人。
Probably, your demand source at this stage is mostly people you know.
也许，你现阶段的需求来源大部分是你认识的人。
It's friends and family, it's your network, maybe it's VCs.
这是朋友和家人，是你的网络，也许是风险投资。
You haven't probably done a lot of cold outreach at this point, and it's hard to find customers.
此时您可能还没有进行大量的冷外展，并且很难找到客户。
You're trying to get three to five.
你正试图获得三到五。
It probably takes you 20 warm intros to get one, something along those lines.
你可能需要 20 个热情的介绍才能得到一个类似的东西。
So maybe to get to three to five, it's at least 50 conversations.
所以也许要达到三到五次，至少需要 50 次对话。
That's very normal at this stage because you're just trying to find the right problem and find customers who have it.
在这个阶段这是非常正常的，因为您只是想找到正确的问题并找到有该问题的客户。
You're probably in the $0 to 500K ARR, somewhere in that zone.
您的 ARR 可能在 0 到 50 万美元之间，就在这个区域的某个地方。
I would say that you're at level one.
我会说你处于第一级。
Todd Jackson: And then there are metrics to track efficiency, things like burn multiple, gross margin, NRR all of these things.
托德·杰克逊：还有跟踪效率的指标，比如燃烧倍数、毛利率、NRR 所有这些东西。
All of them are just not applicable at this stage.
所有这些在现阶段都不适用。
It's too early and you shouldn't be worrying about that stuff.
现在还太早，你不应该担心这些事情。
And so you want to be feeling this sense of progress that there are customers who need what you are building and the thing you're building works.
因此，您希望感受到这种进步感，即有客户需要您正在构建的产品，并且您正在构建的产品有效。
And so conversely, the signs that we see a lot of founders get stuck, and this is a very common level to get stuck.
相反，我们看到很多创始人陷入困境的迹象，这是一个非常常见的陷入困境的水平。
And so if you're hanging out here for six months, nine months, 12 months, and there's yellow flags that are appearing, you're starting to feel stuck.
因此，如果您在这里闲逛六个月、九个月、12 个月，并且出现黄旗，您就会开始感到陷入困境。
Todd Jackson: And so the yellow flags are something like, let's say, your product disappeared overnight, your customers wouldn't be super disappointed.
托德·杰克逊：所以黄旗就像是，比方说，你的产品一夜之间消失了，你的客户不会感到超级失望。
Let's say you have a handful of happy customers.
假设您有一些满意的客户。
Let's say you've got four or five customers, but the most important feature is actually different for each one of them.
假设您有四五个客户，但每个客户最重要的功能实际上都是不同的。
That starts to look a little bit more like a consulting business than a product business.
这开始看起来更像是咨询业务而不是产品业务。
Or it just feels incredibly hard to find the marginal customer, the next new customer.
或者只是感觉很难找到边际客户，即下一个新客户。
Or your usage is low.
或者你的使用率低。
The product is in their hands, but the usage is low, it's not growing that much.
产品在他们手里，但使用率很低，增长幅度不大。
It lasts for six months.
它持续六个月。
Todd Jackson: And I think, there's a really good example, Jack Altman, who's the founder of Lattice, he founded Lattice in 2015.
托德·杰克逊：我认为，有一个很好的例子，杰克·奥尔特曼，他是莱迪思的创始人，他于 2015 年创立了莱迪思。
We've talked to him a bunch on the First Round Paths to Product-Market Fit and other things.
我们和他就产品市场契合度的第一轮路径和其他问题进行了很多交谈。
So for those who don't know, Lattice is a people management platform, but it didn't start that way.
对于那些不知道的人来说，莱迪思是一个人员管理平台，但它并不是这样开始的。
And most people don't know about this, Lattice actually started as an OKR tool back in 2015.
大多数人不知道这一点，Lattice 实际上是在 2015 年作为 OKR 工具开始的。
Todd Jackson: Yeah.
托德·杰克逊：是的。
And so Jack had just seen this at other companies.
所以杰克刚刚在其他公司看到了这一点。
He's like, "Okay, companies are doing OKRs, but they're not very good at it and it causes a lot of arguments among the executive team and employees are noncompliant.
他说：“好吧，公司正在执行 OKR，但他们并不擅长，这会在执行团队中引起很多争论，而且员工也不遵守规定。
They think the whole thing's dumb.
他们认为整件事都很愚蠢。
So I can fix that with software." And so the original version of Lattice was for managing OKRs.
所以我可以用软件来解决这个问题。”所以 Lattice 的原始版本是用于管理 OKR 的。
And he was able to sell it.
他能够卖掉它。
And so his buyer was the head of HR, and they said, "Okay, yeah, we'll give this a shot." And he had a couple companies using it, and they would use it for one quarter.
所以他的买家是人力资源主管，他们说：“好吧，是的，我们会尝试一下。”他有几家公司使用它，他们会使用它一个季度。
And then the next quarter would come around, and they were like, "Didn't go that well last time.
然后下一个季度就会到来，他们会说，“上次进展得不太顺利。
I don't know, the employees don't seem to like it.
我不知道，员工们似乎不喜欢这样。
I don't know."
我不知道。”
Todd Jackson: And then the quarter after that, they were like, "No, we're not buying this, we're not using this." And so Jack pulled off the pivot to people management.
托德·杰克逊：在那之后的一个季度，他们就像，“不，我们不会购买这个，我们不会使用它。”就这样，杰克成功地转向了人员管理。
And the way that he did it was he actually kept the persona.
他这样做的方式实际上保留了这个角色。
And so this gets into the ideas of the four Ps, and I'll talk about this a little bit more.
这涉及到 4 P 的想法，我将对此进行更多讨论。
This is our version of the four Ps.
这是我们的四个 P 版本。
You've got the persona, the problem, the promise, and the product.
你已经有了角色、问题、承诺和产品。
And all four of these things have to line up.
所有这四件事都必须对齐。
Your product has to deliver a promise that solves the problem of your persona.
您的产品必须提供解决您角色问题的承诺。
And so Jack actually kept the persona.
所以杰克实际上保留了这个角色。
He was like, "I've gotten to know these heads of HR really well over the last six to nine months.
他说：“在过去的六到九个月里，我已经非常了解这些人力资源主管了。
I text with them, I go out to coffee with them, I'm friends with them, I know them really well.
我和他们发短信，和他们一起出去喝咖啡，我和他们是朋友，我非常了解他们。
This OKR thing just doesn't seem to be a big deal for them, but they've got other problems that I could look at solving."
OKR 的事情对他们来说似乎不是什么大问题，但他们还有其他问题需要我考虑解决。”
Todd Jackson: And the interesting thing was that timing, it was mid-2010s, performance management had started to come back in favor.
Todd Jackson：有趣的是，在 2010 年代中期，绩效管理开始重新受到青睐。
It was like this pendulum.
就像这个钟摆一样。
There was a period of time where performance management was really important, and then all these companies were like, "We're not doing this anymore." And then the pendulum swung back, and around 2015, 2016 was that time.
曾经有一段时间，绩效管理非常重要，然后所有这些公司都说，“我们不再这样做了。”然后钟摆又摆回来，大约是2015年、2016年。
And so Jack literally showed them Figma mock-ups.
于是杰克就向他们展示了 Figma 模型。
There was no product, but he's like, "What if I could solve performance management for you in a way that is much more modern and much more employee-friendly and manager-friendly and the whole thing's just going to work better?"
没有产品，但他说，“如果我能以一种更现代、对员工和经理更友好的方式为您解决绩效管理问题，并且整个事情会更好地运作，会怎么样？”
Todd Jackson: And the response was off the charts.
托德·杰克逊：反响非常好。
And people wanted this thing.
人们想要这个东西。
And I believe he sold his first five or 10 customers with Figma mock-ups.
我相信他用 Figma 模型卖给了他的前 5 到 10 位客户。
Before, he hadn't built anything really.
在此之前，他并没有真正建造过任何东西。
And so that, I think, is an interesting example of he was stuck in the zone of people didn't love what he was doing.
所以，我认为，这是一个有趣的例子，说明他陷入了人们不喜欢他所做的事情的境地。
He kept the persona, but he changed the problem that he was solving and the promise he was delivering through the product.
他保留了这个角色，但他改变了他正在解决的问题以及他通过产品兑现的承诺。
And we do a whole section on pivots and when to pivot and how to pivot.
我们用了一整节的内容来讨论枢轴、何时枢轴以及如何枢轴。
And I think this is actually the best framework for this, is the four Ps.
我认为这实际上是最好的框架，就是四个 P。
Lattice kept the first one but changed the others.
莱迪思保留了第一个，但改变了其他的。
Vanta changed all four.
万塔改变了这四个人。
Todd Jackson: There are other products like Plaid that actually kept elements of the product they were doing.
托德·杰克逊：还有其他产品，例如格子呢，实际上保留了他们正在做的产品的元素。
So I don't know if you know the story of Plaid, but Zach Perret was building...
所以我不知道你是否知道 Plaid 的故事，但 Zach Perret 正在建造......
Plaid started out not as like a API for bank accounts.
Plaid 最初并不像银行账户的 API。
It started out as a consumer budgeting app.
它最初是一款消费者预算应用程序。
It was a consumer app.
这是一个消费者应用程序。
And it just was supposed to help you save money and budget and stuff.
它只是应该帮助你节省金钱和预算之类的。
And it just wasn't that popular.
但它并没有那么受欢迎。
And the founders were frustrated, but they had built this part of the product that enabled the app to connect to your bank accounts, and had solved all the nitty-gritty issues with that.
创始人们很沮丧，但他们已经构建了产品的这一部分，使应用程序能够连接到你的银行账户，并解决了所有的实际问题。
And then they found that their friends wanted to license it from them.
然后他们发现他们的朋友想从他们那里获得许可。
Todd Jackson: So Zach had a friend at Venmo who wanted to license this, and they got Robinhood at some point, they got Coinbase at some point.
托德·杰克逊：扎克在 Venmo 有一个朋友想要获得许可，他们在某个时候得到了 Robinhood，在某个时候得到了 Coinbase。
So that's an example of they actually kept a lot of the code that they had written.
这是他们实际上保留了大量自己编写的代码的一个例子。
They kept the product, but they completely changed the other three Ps.
他们保留了产品，但完全改变了其他三个 P。
Instead of solving for consumers who have a problem with budgeting, we are going to solve for developers at fintech companies who have a problem connecting to bank accounts.
我们不会为有预算问题的消费者提供解决方案，而是为金融科技公司的开发人员解决与银行账户连接有问题的问题。
And it was a total flip of the four Ps.
这完全是四个 P 的翻转。
But that's why I really like this framework because I think it really helps founders think in a structured way about this.
但这就是为什么我真的很喜欢这个框架，因为我认为它确实可以帮助创始人以结构化的方式思考这个问题。
Lenny Rachitsky: Todd, this is amazing.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：托德，这太棒了。
I'm so happy we're doing this.
我很高兴我们正在这样做。
I think this is going to help a lot of people.
我认为这会对很多人有帮助。
I want to move on to level two, but first let me try to summarize some of these key elements.
我想进入第二级，但首先让我尝试总结其中一些关键要素。
So these four Ps is essentially what you should try to change if you're stuck in this level or any level.
因此，如果您陷入此级别或任何级别，这四个 P 本质上是您应该尝试改变的内容。
And just to summarize, you can change who you're targeting, the persona, you can change the problem you're solving, you could change the way you're pitching it, which is the promise is how you describe it, basically positioning.
总而言之，你可以改变你的目标对象、角色，你可以改变你正在解决的问题，你可以改变你推销它的方式，这就是你描述它的方式，基本上是定位。
And then you could also just change your product.
然后你也可以改变你的产品。
You mentioned Vanta changed all four, some companies change just one.
你提到 Vanta 改变了所有四个，有些公司只改变了一个。
Any advice for how to know which of these to change?
关于如何知道要更改哪些内容有什么建议吗？
What points you to change this versus change that?
改变这个和改变那个的要点是什么？
Is there anything that you've seen?
有什么你见过的吗？
Todd Jackson: I think different founders approach this differently.
托德·杰克逊：我认为不同的创始人对此的处理方式不同。
And I've seen a lot of founders who are build first and then sell, and I've seen a lot of founders who are sell first and then build.
我见过很多先构建然后出售的创始人，我也见过很多先出售然后构建的创始人。
And they can both work.
它们都可以工作。
I tend to gravitate towards the, "I want to sell it before I build it," because I really want the signal from customers and I want that to be the guide and the oxygen that drives what I'm building.
我倾向于“我想在建造之前出售它”，因为我真的想要来自客户的信号，我希望它成为驱动我正在建造的东西的指南和氧气。
I find that very motivating.
我觉得这非常激励人心。
I also find it easier, honestly.
老实说，我也发现这更容易。
Todd Jackson: Rather than guessing like, "Oh, I'm going to write 50,000 lines of code and then see if somebody wants this thing," I think it's better to talk to a bunch of customers, know that, "Hey, if I had this thing, if I could build this thing, I know it would sell.
托德·杰克逊：与其猜测，“哦，我要写 50,000 行代码，然后看看是否有人想要这个东西”，我认为最好与一群客户交谈，要知道，“嘿，如果我有这个东西，如果我可以构建这个东西，我知道它会卖出去。
I know these people want this thing." So I tend to approach it from that point of view and therefore, I focus on the persona and the problem and the promise.
我知道这些人想要这个东西。”所以我倾向于从这个角度来处理它，因此，我关注角色、问题和承诺。
What is the promise that is really going to click for that buyer, for that persona?
对于那个买家、那个角色来说，真正值得点击的承诺是什么？
And then the product's job is to satisfy those first three Ps really.
然后产品的工作就是真正满足前三个 P。
Lenny Rachitsky: And obviously, those are much easier to change and play with versus rebuilding your product.
Lenny Rachitsky：显然，与重建产品相比，这些更容易更改和使用。
So if nothing else, you should probably start there.
因此，如果没有其他事情，您可能应该从这里开始。
I actually have a post with a bunch of awesome examples of changing the positioning, changing the persona, and so we'll link to that in show notes if people want more examples.
事实上，我有一篇文章，其中有很多关于改变定位、改变角色的很棒的例子，所以如果人们想要更多例子，我们将在展示笔记中链接到这些例子。
Finally, let me try to summarize the stage.
最后，我来总结一下这个阶段。
So I think it's important to note at this nascent stage, it's not roaring product-market fit.
因此，我认为在这个初期阶段值得注意的是，这并不是产品与市场的高度契合。
It's, as you described, very nascent.
正如您所描述的，它还处于新生阶段。
You're getting customers, but it's hard.
你正在吸引客户，但这很难。
You said it's 20 introductions to one sale, but you're getting them.
您说过一次销售需要 20 次介绍，但您确实明白了。
Lenny Rachitsky: I know Retool has a great quote.
Lenny Rachitsky：我知道 Retool 有一句很棒的话。
David has this quote of, "Every customer he got early on, he felt it was the last customer he was ever going to get.
大卫有这样一句话：“他早期得到的每一个客户，他都觉得这是他能得到的最后一个客户。
No more people want this thing and it's always a struggle." So I think that's very normal, is what you're describing.
不再有人想要这个东西，这总是一场斗争。”所以我认为这很正常，正如你所描述的那样。
The beginnings are rarely off and to the right.
起点很少是偏右的。
And it's okay if this takes a while.
如果这需要一段时间也没关系。
You said that if you spent 12 months at this stage, you're probably stuck in the stage, and signs that you're stuck in this nascent stage versus this is actually normal.
你说如果你在这个阶段呆了12个月，你可能就卡在这个阶段了，有迹象表明你卡在这个初级阶段，这其实是正常的。
Signs you mentioned are if you ask people if this went away and they wouldn't be disappointed, they'd be like, "Nah, all right.
你提到的迹象是，如果你问人们这种情况是否消失，他们不会失望，他们会说，“不，好吧。
It's cool."
很酷。”
Lenny Rachitsky: You have many customers, but they're using different features of the product.
Lenny Rachitsky：您有很多客户，但他们使用产品的不同功能。
So to you, the way you described it, essentially, you're professional services for them.
所以对你来说，按照你所描述的方式，本质上，你是为他们提供专业服务。
You're not actually building a product.
您实际上并没有在构建产品。
You consult a lot of people.
你咨询了很多人。
And then they're actually not using it often.
然后他们实际上并不经常使用它。
They're buying, they're paying for it, like the last example, but they're not necessarily using it and they're going to churn pretty quickly.
他们正在购买，他们正在为此付费，就像最后一个例子一样，但他们不一定会使用它，而且他们会很快流失。
Lenny Rachitsky: Anything else you wanted to touch on there before we get to level two?
Lenny Rachitsky：在我们进入第二级之前，您还有什么想谈的吗？
Todd Jackson: The last thing that I'd add at level one is there's this founder from a company called Persona, his name is Rick Song.
托德·杰克逊：我在第一层要添加的最后一件事是，来自一家名为 Persona 的公司的创始人，他的名字叫 Rick Song。
He's super awesome.
他超级棒。
Persona is a First Round company.
Persona 是首轮公司。
They do identity verification.
他们进行身份验证。
And Rick's analogy, I just love it for level one, is you don't want to get friend-zoned by your customers, where your customers like you, but they don't love you and they don't need you.
里克的类比，我只是喜欢它的第一级，就是你不想被你的客户划分为朋友区，你的客户喜欢你，但他们不爱你，也不需要你。
And he was super paranoid about this in the early days of Persona.
在《女神异闻录》的早期阶段，他对此非常偏执。
And his technique for doing this, which I really like, is super simple, was he was very close with his first five or 10 customers.
他的做法非常简单，我真的很喜欢他的技巧，因为他与前五到十名客户关系非常密切。
Todd Jackson: And he would go to them and sit them down one-on-one and say, "I need your help.
托德·杰克逊：他会去找他们，一对一地坐下来说，“我需要你的帮助。
It is very important to me that this company succeeds and does not fail.
对我来说，这家公司成功而不是失败非常重要。
So I don't want you to be nice to me.
所以我不想让你对我好。
I want you to tell me is Persona a necessity for your company?
我想让你告诉我 Persona 是你们公司的必需品吗？
If we went away, how painful would that be?
如果我们离开了，会有多痛苦？
If a competitor came along that charged half as much as us, would you switch to them?" And he's really trying to get to the essence of: is Persona critical for you or am I in the friend zone?
如果出现一个竞争对手，价格只有我们一半，你会转向他们吗？”他真的想弄清楚这个问题的本质：Persona 对你来说很重要，还是我在朋友圈里？
And I just think that's a really great way of thinking about this.
我只是认为这是一个很好的思考方式。
Lenny Rachitsky: I love that story.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢这个故事。
It's like in a relationship, it's the talk.
就像在一段关系中，谈话就是这样。
Lenny Rachitsky: "Are we a thing?" I love that.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：“我们是一个东西吗？”我喜欢那个。
That's so good.
那太好了。
The sooner you know the truth, the better.
越早知道真相越好。
And it's hard to hear bad news, but I love that, just advice of just sit them down one-on-one.
很难听到坏消息，但我喜欢这样，只是建议让他们一对一坐下来。
Let me tell you about CommandBar.
让我告诉你有关 CommandBar 的信息。
If you're like me and most users I've built product for, you probably find those little in-product pop-ups really annoying, "Want to take a tour?" "Check out this new feature." And these pop-ups are becoming less and less effective since most users don't read what they say.
如果您像我和我为其构建产品的大多数用户一样，您可能会发现产品中的那些小弹出窗口真的很烦人，“想参观一下吗？” “看看这个新功能。”由于大多数用户不阅读他们所说的内容，因此这些弹出窗口的效果越来越差。
They just want to close them as soon as possible.
他们只是想尽快关闭它们。
Lenny Rachitsky: But every product builder knows that users need help to learn the ins and outs of your product.
Lenny Rachitsky：但是每个产品构建者都知道用户需要帮助来了解产品的细节。
We use so many products every day and we can't possibly know the ins and outs of everyone.
我们每天都会使用很多产品，我们不可能了解每个产品的来龙去脉。
CommandBar is an AI-powered toolkit for product growth, marketing and customer teams to help users get the most out of your product without annoying them.
CommandBar 是一款由人工智能驱动的工具包，适用于产品开发、营销和客户团队，可帮助用户充分利用您的产品，而不会打扰他们。
They use AI to get closer to user intent.
他们使用人工智能来更接近用户意图。
So they have search and chat products that let users describe what they're trying to do in their own words, and then see personalized results like customer walkthroughs or actions.
因此，他们拥有搜索和聊天产品，让用户用自己的话描述他们想要做什么，然后看到个性化结果，例如客户演练或操作。
Lenny Rachitsky: And they do pop-ups too, but their nudges are based on in-product behaviors like confusion or intent classification, which makes them much less annoying and much more impactful.
Lenny Rachitsky：他们也做弹出窗口，但他们的推动是基于产品内的行为，如混淆或意图分类，这使得它们不那么烦人，而且更有影响力。
This works for web apps, mobile apps and websites, and they work with industry-leading companies like Gusto, Freshworks, HashiCorp and LaunchDarkly.
这适用于网络应用程序、移动应用程序和网站，他们与 Gusto、Freshworks、HashiCorp 和 LaunchDarkly 等行业领先的公司合作。
Over 15 million end-users have interacted with CommandBar.
超过 1500 万最终用户与 CommandBar 进行过交互。
To try out CommandBar, you can sign up at commandbar.com/lenny and you can unlock an extra 1,000 AI responses per month for any plan.
要试用 CommandBar，您可以在 commandbar.com/lenny 上注册，并且对于任何计划，您每月都可以额外解锁 1,000 个 AI 响应。
That's commandbar.com/lenny.
那是commandbar.com/lenny。
Let's talk about level two.
我们来谈谈第二级。
So what does level two look like?
那么二级是什么样的呢？
And what should founders be focusing on when they're in level two?
当创始人处于第二级时应该关注什么？
Todd Jackson: Yeah.
托德·杰克逊：是的。
So level two is developing product-market fit, and your job at level two is now you've got to go from five satisfied customers to 25 satisfied customers.
因此，第二级是开发产品与市场的契合度，而您在第二级的工作就是现在必须从 5 个满意的客户增加到 25 个满意的客户。
And so now you've got to start thinking about demand in addition to satisfaction.
所以现在除了满足之外，你还必须开始考虑需求。
Because it is very hard to just grind your way all the way to 25 customers with sheer willpower, but you can do that to five, maybe 10.
因为仅凭借纯粹的意志力一路磨练到 25 个客户是非常困难的，但你可以做到 5 个，也许 10 个。
And we see some founders who just have phenomenal willpower and grit and grind their way to five or 10 customers.
我们看到一些创始人拥有惊人的意志力和毅力，并通过磨练赢得了 5 到 10 个客户。
To get to 25 and to get beyond 25, the product has to be doing a lot of the heavy lifting for you.
要达到 25 或超过 25，该产品必须为您完成大量繁重的工作。
And so that is the essence of this level.
这就是这个级别的本质。
Todd Jackson: So if you're at this level, now you're seed or Series A style company, maybe you've got up to 20 people at the company.
托德·杰克逊：所以如果你处于这个级别，现在你是种子公司或 A 系列风格的公司，也许你的公司有多达 20 名员工。
And you're starting to work on this demand source where you have the early signs of a scalable channel, and it's not just warm intros from your VCs or from your friends.
你开始研究这个需求源，你已经有了可扩展渠道的早期迹象，而且这不仅仅是来自你的风险投资家或你的朋友的热情介绍。
You're maybe investing in cold outreach and getting that tuned and humming.
您可能正在投资于冷外展并使其调整并嗡嗡作响。
You might be investing in content, you might be doing community events, but the whole idea is you're trying to scale the demand source.
您可能正在投资内容，您可能正在举办社区活动，但整个想法是您正在尝试扩大需求源。
It's still not easy.
这仍然不容易。
A benchmark, we would say, is that your sales conversion without a warm intro is still probably 10%, something like that.
我们会说，一个基准是，在没有热情介绍的情况下，您的销售转化率仍然可能是 10%，类似的数字。
Todd Jackson: First call to close one is around 10%.
托德·杰克逊（Todd Jackson）：第一次结束电话会议的比例约为 10%。
If you get higher than that, that's great, but that sort of benchmark for this level.
如果你的成绩高于这个水平，那就太好了，但这是这个水平的基准。
You're in anywhere from the 500K to five million ARR zone, that's a hallmark of level two.
你处于从 50 万到 500 万 ARR 的任何区域，这是二级的标志。
And you're actually starting to think about efficiency metrics and sales metrics.
您实际上开始考虑效率指标和销售指标。
You might starting to be thinking about magic number, which is a new ARR that you take in in a period divided by the CAC you spend in that period, so something in the 0.5 to 0.75 range.
您可能开始考虑幻数，它是您在一段时间内吸收的新 ARR 除以您在该时期花费的 CAC，因此介于 0.5 到 0.75 范围内。
You want to get higher eventually, but that's pretty reasonable for this level.
你最终希望变得更高，但这对于这个级别来说是相当合理的。
Todd Jackson: You're just starting to think about retention.
托德·杰克逊：你才刚刚开始考虑保留问题。
You've been around for a year, so you've got renewals and you want those renewals renewing.
您已经使用一年了，因此您已获得续订，并且您希望续订这些续订。
Maybe something like 10%, 20% regretted churn is okay.
也许 10%、20% 的后悔流失是可以的。
You don't want to be higher than that, and you want your NRR to be at least 100%.
您不想高于此值，并且希望您的 NRR 至少为 100%。
And then things like gross margin and burn multiple, they're still not the focus.
然后诸如毛利率和燃烧倍数之类的东西仍然不是焦点。
Those are the classic efficiency metrics.
这些是经典的效率指标。
They're not the focus right now.
他们不是现在的焦点。
Todd Jackson: But we would say you want your gross margin to be not worse than 50%, and you'd want your burn multiple to be not worse than five X.
托德·杰克逊：但我们会说你希望你的毛利率不低于 50%，并且你希望你的燃烧倍数不低于 5X。
Your burn multiple, by the way, is just how much you burn in a current period versus how much new ARR comes in.
顺便说一句，你的燃烧倍数就是你在当前时期燃烧的数量与新 ARR 的收入之比。
So if you burn $5 million and you take in one, then you've got to burn multiple of five.
因此，如果你烧掉了 500 万美元，并且收到了 1 美元，那么你必须烧掉 5 美元的倍数。
And you don't want to be worse than that at this stage.
在这个阶段你不想比这更糟糕。
Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
There's a lot of these benchmarks which I love.
有很多我喜欢的基准。
I imagine not everyone's going to hit each of them exactly.
我想并不是每个人都会准确地击中他们中的每一个。
These are just rough guidelines of like, "You're probably in this stage if you're in this level," right?
这些只是粗略的指导方针，比如“如果你处于这个级别，你可能处于这个阶段”，对吧？
Todd Jackson: Yeah, exactly.
托德·杰克逊：是的，完全正确。
There's some wide bars around these metrics.
这些指标存在一些宽限。
It's just representative of, generally, the stage of five to 25 customers.
一般而言，它仅代表 5 至 25 个客户的阶段。
Lenny Rachitsky: I love it.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢它。
And it's so interesting that people think of product-market fit, as you said, as this binary, "I have it or I don't." And the way you're talking about this is in this level to developing product-market fit, a company has 25 satisfied customers, they're over five million in ARR, a lot of cases they have 20 employees.
有趣的是，正如您所说，人们将产品与市场的契合度视为二元，“我有它或我没有。”你所说的方式是在开发产品市场契合度的这个层面上，一家公司有 25 个满意的客户，他们的 ARR 超过 500 万，很多情况下他们有 20 名员工。
Todd Jackson: Between 500K and five million.
托德·杰克逊：50万到500万之间。
Yeah.
是的。
Lenny Rachitsky: 500K and five million.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：50 万和 500 万。
They have 20 employees.
他们有 20 名员工。
In theory, you would think this is a roaring success.
从理论上讲，你会认为这是一次巨大的成功。
They're killing it, they have all these customers, they're growing.
他们正在消灭它，他们拥有所有这些客户，他们正在成长。
But it's still just level two of product-market fit.
但这仍然只是产品与市场契合度的第二级。
So I think this has a really interesting insight, and it reminds me of when I did a bunch of research on product-market fit.
所以我认为这是一个非常有趣的见解，它让我想起我对产品市场契合度进行了大量研究。
Lenny Rachitsky: So many founders are like, "I never felt that product-market fit.
Lenny Rachitsky：很多创始人都会说，“我从来没有感觉到产品与市场的契合度。
I didn't have it.
我没有。
It was always, 'I don't know, maybe when we get to 100 million ARR, I'll really feel like we got this.'" So I think this is a really good reminder that a lot of times you're not actually going to feel so confident this will last, and you're going to get to lasting durable product-market fit.
人们总是说，‘我不知道，也许当我们达到 1 亿 ARR 时，我真的会觉得我们得到了这个。’”所以我认为这是一个很好的提醒，很多时候你实际上并不会那么有信心这种情况会持续下去，而且你将获得持久耐用的产品市场契合。
So I think that's a really great insight here.
所以我认为这是一个非常好的见解。
Todd Jackson: Yeah.
托德·杰克逊：是的。
And the thing that's really, I think, the hallmark of level two is you've got a product that a handful of people like.
我认为，第二级的真正标志是你拥有了少数人喜欢的产品。
It's satisfying a critical need for them.
它满足了他们的关键需求。
Now you've got to open the demand floodgates so that we can get to 25 customers and beyond.
现在您必须打开需求闸门，以便我们能够吸引 25 名甚至更多的客户。
And different companies do this in very different ways.
不同的公司以非常不同的方式做到这一点。
It's much easier said than done.
说起来容易做起来难。
Looker is an example.
观察者就是一个例子。
So Looker is a First Round company founded in 2012 by Lloyd Tabb.
So Looker 是由 Lloyd Tabb 于 2012 年创立的首轮公司。
They do business intelligence.
他们做商业情报。
And Looker is interesting because they spent actually a long time at level one, but then flew through level two.
Looker 很有趣，因为他们实际上在第一级花了很长时间，但随后飞过了第二级。
And the reason is because Lloyd, the founder, the first five customers of Looker, he was basically going in and doing consulting for them.
原因是因为 Lloyd，创始人，Looker 的前五个客户，他基本上是进去为他们做咨询。
Todd Jackson: And the reason is because of the nature of the product.
托德·杰克逊：原因是产品的性质。
People don't get Looker until they see their own data in it, and their data is modeled and they see the dashboards and they're like, "Oh, my God.
人们不会使用 Looker，直到他们在其中看到自己的数据，并且他们的数据经过建模并且看到仪表板后，他们会说：“哦，天啊。
Wow, I didn't realize these insights." So Lloyd understood Looker is not a product you could sell with Figma mock-ups.
哇，我没有意识到这些见解。”所以 Lloyd 明白 Looker 不是一款可以用 Figma 模型来销售的产品。
And so what happened was Lloyd would go into these customers, spend 20, 30, 40 hours before they were even a customer, modeling their data, teaching them how to use it, showing more people within the organization the power of the data and the dashboards.
因此，劳埃德会深入这些客户，在他们成为客户之前花费 20、30、40 小时，对他们的数据进行建模，教他们如何使用数据，向组织内的更多人展示数据和仪表板的力量。
Todd Jackson: And later, they called this their forward deploy process.
托德·杰克逊：后来，他们将此称为前向部署过程。
This is how they figured out sales.
这就是他们计算销售额的方法。
And so it actually took them a long time in level one to get this right, but then they were able to do this repeatably.
因此，他们实际上在第一级花了很长时间才能做到这一点，但随后他们能够重复地做到这一点。
And so they went from five to 25 fairly quickly, and a lot of amazing...
所以他们很快就从 5 个增加到 25 个，还有很多令人惊奇的事情......
75% close rate because they were only selling customers who were already using it.
75% 的成交率，因为他们只向已经在使用它的客户销售。
There was zero churn.
客户流失率为零。
And Lloyd explains once he got to 20 customers, he's like, "I know I'm onto something.
劳埃德解释说，一旦他接触到 20 位客户，他就会说：“我知道我正在做某事。
And I think I figured out a model."
我想我找到了一个模型。”
Todd Jackson: And the model stayed the same until they ended up selling to Google.
托德·杰克逊：模型一直保持不变，直到他们最终卖给谷歌。
And so they did these other things too.
所以他们也做了这些其他的事情。
They started focusing on demand channels.
他们开始关注需求渠道。
They got a couple SDRs who were prospecting.
他们有几个正在勘探的特别提款权。
I think they did some partner marketing with AWS Redshift.
我认为他们使用 AWS Redshift 进行了一些合作伙伴营销。
They did these look-and-tell customer events in San Francisco where they got Looker customers together to talk about what they were doing in Looker and how they built the product.
他们在旧金山举办了这些“查看并讲述”客户活动，将 Looker 客户聚集在一起，讨论他们在 Looker 中所做的事情以及他们如何构建产品。
But really, the groundwork was set at level one and then they moved really quickly through level two.
但实际上，基础工作已经在第一级奠定了，然后他们很快就进入了第二级。
Lenny Rachitsky: So again, the way to think about this phase, is this is when you're starting to scale a way to drive demand.
Lenny Rachitsky：所以，再次思考这个阶段的方法是，当你开始扩展一种方法来推动需求时。
You're not just grinding sales, cold outreach.
你不仅会降低销售量，还会冷落外展活动。
There's a way you're starting to bring in customers that are more efficient.
有一种方法可以让您开始更高效地吸引客户。
And in Looker's case, they just started coming because I imagine there's word of mouth and people started to talk about it.
就 Looker 而言，他们之所以开始来，是因为我想有口耳相传，人们开始谈论它。
Todd Jackson: Yeah.
托德·杰克逊：是的。
Let me do another example.
让我再举一个例子。
A really different example is a company called Ironclad.
一个完全不同的例子是一家名为 Ironclad 的公司。
Ironclad, it's legal.
铁定的，合法的。
It's a legal tech company founded in 2015.
这是一家成立于2015年的合法科技公司。
Jason Jason Boehmig is the founder.
杰森·杰森·博米格是创始人。
AI-powered contract management software.
人工智能驱动的合同管理软件。
So this was interesting because Jason, he started out calling this an AI legal assistant.
所以这很有趣，因为杰森（Jason）一开始称其为人工智能法律助理。
And in 2024, people are like, "Oh, AI legal assistant.
到 2024 年，人们会说，“哦，人工智能法律助理。
Yeah, that's awesome." But in 2014, people were like, "What?" And he found it really hard to sell.
是的，那太棒了。”但在 2014 年，人们会问，“什么？”他发现很难卖掉。
No one was looking for an AI legal assistant.
没有人在寻找人工智能法律助理。
And so he told us this story.
所以他给我们讲了这个故事。
Todd Jackson: There was an email address on the Ironclad homepage, hello@ironclad.com.
托德·杰克逊：Ironclad 主页上有一个电子邮件地址，hello@ironclad.com。
This is in 2015.
这是2015年的事。
And he doesn't get very much email, but Jason is checking the email.
他收到的电子邮件不多，但杰森正在查看电子邮件。
And one day he gets this one line email, and he almost archives it because he doesn't know who it's from and it's one line.
有一天，他收到一封一行电子邮件，他几乎将其存档，因为他不知道这封邮件来自谁，而且只是一行。
But he sees that it's from a person at a publicly-traded company, and so he's like, "Oh, maybe there's something here." And the one line email is just, "Are you a CLM?" And he was like, "What is a CLM?" And he Googles for it.
但他发现这是一家上市公司的一个人发来的，所以他说，“哦，也许这里有什么东西。”其中一行电子邮件只是“您是 CLM 吗？”他问，“什么是 CLM？”他用谷歌搜索它。
A CLM is a contract lifecycle management platform.
CLM 是合同生命周期管理平台。
And he's reading up about CLMs, and he's like, "Oh, we do that.
他正在阅读有关 CLM 的内容，他说：“哦，我们就是这么做的。
Yeah."
是的。”
Todd Jackson: And so he replies to the email, "Yes, we are a CLM." And the customer gets them on the phone.
托德·杰克逊：他回复了电子邮件，“是的，我们是 CLM。”客户会通过电话联系他们。
And the customer says, "Oh, I'm in the market for a CLM.
客户说：“哦，我正在市场上寻找 CLM。
I'm looking at 10 or 12 different vendors, but you guys look pretty cool because there's some automation and some AI stuff going on.
我正在寻找 10 或 12 个不同的供应商，但你们看起来很酷，因为有一些自动化和人工智能的东西正在进行。
Can I check this out?" And Jason's like, "Of course." So he and his co-founder take the train from San Francisco down to San Jose.
我可以检查一下吗？”杰森说：“当然。”因此，他和他的联合创始人乘坐火车从旧金山前往圣何塞。
And on the train, Jason is telling his co-founder, Cai, "Hey, I need you to code this up right now to make it look like what this customer is expecting."
在火车上，杰森告诉他的联合创始人蔡，“嘿，我需要你现在就编写代码，让它看起来像这位客户所期望的那样。”
Todd Jackson: And they get to the meeting, and they do the demo.
托德·杰克逊：他们参加会议并进行演示。
And the customer has no idea that they just made this demo on the train, and they're a very small company.
客户不知道他们只是在火车上制作了这个演示，而且他们是一家非常小的公司。
And they win the contract against these 10 or 12 other established bases, because Ironclad, it's more modern, it's automated, it's got this AI stuff.
他们赢得了与这 10 或 12 个其他已建立基地的合同，因为 Ironclad，它更现代化，它是自动化的，它有人工智能的东西。
It's just a better product, or the demo looks like it's going to be a better product.
它只是一个更好的产品，或者演示看起来它将是一个更好的产品。
And so Jason reflects on this and he's like, "Yeah, the thing for us is we had been trying to create this new category of AI legal assistant, and it was just a slog.
Jason 对此进行了反思，他说：“是的，对我们来说，我们一直在尝试创建这种新的人工智能法律助理类别，但这只是一个艰难的过程。
Todd Jackson: "And instead, when we changed our positioning to play in an existing category of CLM, but a much better CLM, but customers are already looking for a CLM, they're already looking to spend money on a CLM, and just expand the definition of what that category is, things just started to click." And that's how they got through that zone of 10, 20, 30 customers.
Todd Jackson：“相反，当我们改变定位，进入现有的 CLM 类别，但这是一个更好的 CLM，但客户已经在寻找 CLM，他们已经希望在 CLM 上花钱，并且只是扩展该类别的定义时，事情就开始顺利了。”这就是他们如何通过 10、20、30 名顾客的区域。
And even if you look at the Ironclad website today, it says AI-Powered Contract Management Software.
即使您今天查看 Ironclad 网站，它也会显示人工智能驱动的合同管理软件。
That really is the key idea still.
这确实仍然是关键想法。
Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
So this is an awesome example of positioning/promise is the lever they pull here.
所以这是一个很棒的定位/承诺的例子，这是他们在这里拉动的杠杆。
I love the point about category design.
我喜欢类别设计的观点。
That's one of the ongoing debates on this podcast, whether you should try to create a category.
这是该播客正在进行的争论之一，即是否应该尝试创建一个类别。
Lenny Rachitsky: Hot topic.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：热门话题。
Sounds like you're in the boat of probably better not to create your own category.
听起来你可能最好不要创建自己的类别。
Todd Jackson: I think it's hard to create a category.
托德·杰克逊：我认为创建一个类别很难。
It certainly works in some cases, but if you actually have a really interesting spin on an existing category, there's already buyers spending money on that thing.
它在某些情况下确实有效，但如果你确实对现有类别有一个非常有趣的旋转，那么已经有买家在该东西上花钱了。
They're already looking for something to buy.
他们已经在寻找要买的东西了。
So if you can do it, I do actually think that way is easier.
所以如果你能做到的话，我确实认为这种方式更容易。
Lenny Rachitsky: Before we get to level three, what are signs that you're maybe stuck at level two, and what should one do about that?
Lenny Rachitsky：在我们进入第三级之前，有哪些迹象表明您可能陷入了第二级，对此我们应该采取什么措施？
Todd Jackson: Yeah.
托德·杰克逊：是的。
So the whole idea of level two is this thing that the marginal customer is getting easier.
所以第二级的整体理念是边际客户变得更容易。
And so you've got to be focusing on demand and the repeatability of demand while you maintain satisfaction.
因此，在保持满意度的同时，您必须关注需求和需求的可重复性。
So the yellow flags are things that are the opposite of that.
所以黄旗是与此相反的东西。
Your current customers are pretty happy, but you're just having trouble opening the floodgates.
您当前的客户非常满意，但您在打开闸门时遇到了困难。
As you're getting to the top end of level two, you should start to hear some startups know who you are like, "Oh, you need a SOC 2, you're a startup.
当你到达第二级的顶端时，你应该开始听到一些初创公司知道你是谁，“哦，你需要一个 SOC 2，你是一家初创公司。
Oh, Vanta." "Oh, you need AI-powered contract management software.
哦，Vanta。”“哦，你需要人工智能驱动的合同管理软件。
Oh, Ironclad." You start to get known for a thing.
哦，铁甲舰。”你开始因某件事而出名。
Todd Jackson: And so if you're having trouble opening those floodgates, and you're sitting there for, I don't know, 12 months, 18 months, that's a problem.
托德·杰克逊：所以，如果你在打开这些闸门时遇到困难，并且你坐在那里，我不知道，12 个月，18 个月，那就是一个问题。
Or you have things like your regretted churn is greater than 20%.
或者你有一些事情，比如你后悔的客户流失率超过 20%。
That's a satisfaction warning sign.
这是一个满意的警告信号。
And again, you have to maintain the satisfaction as you work on these other things.
再说一次，当你做其他事情时，你必须保持满足感。
Every level just gets more things you have to do.
每个级别都会有更多你必须做的事情。
Or you could be finding that the sales cycle's taking too long, you're losing deals late in the funnel, you're losing the competitors.
或者您可能会发现销售周期太长，您在渠道后期失去了交易，您正在失去竞争对手。
You're just not feeling the urgency from customers or you're struggling to hit the price point that you want.
您只是没有感受到客户的紧迫感，或者您正在努力达到您想要的价格点。
Todd Jackson: And the way that customers will say this to you because customers are nice, right?
托德·杰克逊：顾客会对你这么说，因为顾客很好，对吧？
They'll say, "Oh, we don't have the budget." Or, "Oh, it's just not the right time for us.
他们会说：“哦，我们没有预算。”或者，“哦，现在对我们来说还不是时候。
We'd love to talk again next year." That means no, when you're hearing that from customers.
我们很乐意明年再谈。”当你从客户那里听到这样的说法时，这意味着不。
You want customers who are like, "Oh, of course.
你想要的客户会说：“哦，当然。
Yeah, this is expensive, but I'm going to make this work because I need this." And so if you're seeing any of those signs, those are the signs that you maybe are stuck or plateauing at this level.
是的，这很昂贵，但我会让这项工作成功，因为我需要这个。”因此，如果你看到这些迹象中的任何一个，这些迹象表明你可能在这个水平上陷入困境或停滞不前。
And I really think it's important to think about the four Ps and think about: how am I going to pivot my way out of this?
我真的认为思考四个 P 并思考：我将如何摆脱困境？
Jack Altman, who I mentioned earlier from Lattice, he's got a great quote on this.
我之前在莱迪思提到过杰克·奥特曼（Jack Altman），他对此有一个很好的引用。
Todd Jackson: It's up in a video on the website.
托德·杰克逊：网站上有一个视频。
What did he say?
他说什么？
He said, "Most founders do a 10% pivot, and what they need to be doing is a 200% pivot." Jack didn't say this, but I think part of my interpretation of this is it's psychologically hard as a founder.
他说，“大多数创始人都会进行 10% 的转型，而他们需要做的是 200% 的转型。”杰克没有这么说，但我认为我对此的部分解释是作为创始人在心理上很难。
You've gotten to this many customers, you're starting to plateau, but you're like, "I don't want to throw this whole thing away." But you have to be willing to let go and really focus on nailing the four Ps at this point.
你已经吸引了这么多客户，你开始趋于稳定，但你会想，“我不想把这一切都扔掉。”但此时你必须愿意放手并真正专注于确定四个 P。
Lenny Rachitsky: And in your experience, do you find, essentially, pivoting is the answer if you're stuck?
Lenny Rachitsky：根据您的经验，您是否发现，如果您陷入困境，从本质上讲，转型就是答案？
Todd Jackson: I think sometimes it's nice when it's the Ironclad thing, right?
托德·杰克逊：我觉得有时候《铁甲战士》很好，对吧？
Todd Jackson: It's nicest when it's the Looker thing of you don't have to change anything.
Todd Jackson：当你不需要改变任何东西时，这是最好的。
It just starts working and basically, the whole thing works the whole time.
它刚刚开始工作，基本上，整个事情一直在工作。
That's not common.
这并不常见。
It's nice when it's the Ironclad thing when you just change one of them, or maybe two of them.
当你只改变其中一个或两个时，这是很好的。
Starting over with all four of these is hard at level two, but oftentimes, it's what's required.
在第二级，从所有这四个开始是很困难的，但通常这是所需要的。
I was mentioning earlier, level two is the second most common level to get stuck.
我之前提到过，第二级是第二个最容易卡住的级别。
Todd Jackson: A big chunk of companies are going to get stuck at level one, and the second biggest is at level two.
托德·杰克逊：很大一部分公司将陷入第一级，第二大公司将陷入第二级。
So sometimes it's hard.
所以有时候很难。
I think the trap is not doing enough to realize that you're actually not progressing to product-market fit in the way that you need to and just starting to burn money and not make progress.
我认为这个陷阱还没有做得足够多，没有让你意识到你实际上并没有按照你需要的方式进展到产品与市场的契合，而且只是开始烧钱而不取得进展。
And you've seen many startups struggle with this.
你已经看到许多初创公司在这方面苦苦挣扎。
I think it's the hardest part of it.
我认为这是最难的部分。
Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。
Especially once they're a million, two million, three million ARR and they're like, "Look, we're making all this money." And they don't necessarily realize that they've been stuck at this stage for so long.
尤其是当他们的 ARR 达到 100 万、200 万、300 万时，他们就会说：“看，我们赚了这么多钱。”而且他们不一定意识到自己已经在这个阶段停留了这么久。
So just to summarize flags that something is wrong and that you should probably think about changing your persona, your problem, your promise or your product, is it's been 12 to 18 months at this stage of product-market fit.
因此，总结一下，产品市场契合阶段已经过去 12 到 18 个月了，这表明出了问题，您可能应该考虑改变您的角色、您的问题、您的承诺或您的产品。
You are churning about 20% of customers.
您正在流失大约 20% 的客户。
And these are logo churn, I imagine, just like businesses stop using you.
我想，这些都是徽标流失，就像企业不再使用你一样。
Lenny Rachitsky: Your sales cycles are really slow.
Lenny Rachitsky：你们的销售周期真的很慢。
Is there a sense of what slow means?
是否明白缓慢意味着什么？
Just a rough heuristic.
只是一个粗略的启发。
What should it...
应该怎么办...
Todd Jackson: Well, some sales cycles are slow.
托德·杰克逊：嗯，有些销售周期很慢。
If you're selling to companies that are big, you're selling to government, that type of thing.
如果你卖给大公司，你就是卖给政府之类的东西。
I don't know.
我不知道。
Rough rule of thumb is...
粗略的经验法则是...
There's different ACVs also.
还有不同的 ACV。
If you're the kind of product that is 20K, 30K annual contracts, that was Looker, right?
如果你的产品是那种每年 2 万、3 万份合同的产品，那就是 Looker，对吗？
But they were able to do the sales cycle very repeatedly because they closed so often.
但他们能够非常重复地进行销售周期，因为他们经常关门。
There are some contracts that are 100K, 200K, six figure contracts.
有些合同是 10 万、20 万、六位数的合同。
Those can take a long time.
这些可能需要很长时间。
Those can take three to six months.
这些可能需要三到六个月的时间。
You can't basically be in the worst of both worlds where you've got a slow sales cycle and a low ACV.
您基本上不可能处于销售周期缓慢和 ACV 较低的两全其美的境地。
That is the quadrant of death basically.
这基本上就是死亡象限。
Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
Okay.
好的。
And then the other sign is just you're not finding demand starting to come to you.
另一个迹象是你没有发现需求开始向你而来。
You're not finding a channel to drive demand.
您没有找到推动需求的渠道。
And is a big part of this inbound?
这是入境的很大一部分吗？
You're supposed to start seeing more inbound coming at you?
您应该开始看到更多的入站信息向您涌来吗？
Or is it more just sales becomes easier?
或者只是销售变得更容易？
Todd Jackson: It's both.
托德·杰克逊：两者都是。
So sales becomes easier, but I think if you are starting to get to level three, which is where we're getting to next, you've probably got 10%, 20% of your inbound coming or completely organic inbound.
因此，销售变得更容易，但我认为，如果您开始达到第三级，这就是我们下一步要达到的水平，您可能已经获得了 10%、20% 的入站流量或完全有机的入站流量。
Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
Okay.
好的。
So again, if you're stuck at this stage, and these are signs that are like, "Oh, man, this sounds familiar," your advice is find one of these things to shift the person you're going after, the problem you're solving, the way you position it and/or your product if you have to.
再说一次，如果你陷入这个阶段，并且这些迹象类似于“哦，天哪，这听起来很熟悉”，你的建议是找到其中之一来改变你要追随的人、你要解决的问题、你定位它和/或你的产品的方式（如果有必要的话）。
Todd Jackson: Yeah.
托德·杰克逊：是的。
And probably just look for something that is a lot more of a burning pain.
或许只是寻找一些更让人感到灼痛的东西。
It's usually that the problem is not significant enough, important enough to people, or the promise is not valuable enough.
通常是问题不够严重，对人们来说不够重要，或者承诺不够有价值。
It's usually one of those assuming you have a reasonable persona.
通常是假设您具有合理的角色之一。
Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
And the reason I am spending so much time here, as you said, most companies get stuck here, like B2B SaaS companies.
正如您所说，我之所以在这里花费如此多的时间，是因为大多数公司都陷入了困境，比如 B2B SaaS 公司。
So I think it's really important to make sure people have something to go with.
所以我认为确保人们有东西可以搭配是非常重要的。
And in the course and in the post you put out, there's more examples of companies going through this and what they did.
在您发布的课程和帖子中，有更多公司经历过这种情况以及他们所做的事情的例子。
Let's talk about level three.
我们来谈谈第三级。
What does level three look like?
三级是什么样的？
What should you be focusing on there?
在那里你应该关注什么？
Todd Jackson: Yeah.
托德·杰克逊：是的。
So level three is strong product-market fit.
因此，第三级是产品与市场的紧密契合。
This is where I think it starts to get fun.
我认为这就是开始变得有趣的地方。
This is where all the product-market fit adages come in, "The fish are jumping into the boat.
这就是所有适合产品市场的谚语的用武之地：“鱼儿跳上船。”
The rock is rolling down the hill and I'm trying to chase it instead of pushing it up the hill." And keep in mind, for most enterprise founders, we're now three, four or five years into the company, so it's not easy to get here.
岩石从山上滚下来，我试图追它，而不是把它推上山。”请记住，对于大多数企业创始人来说，我们现在已经进入公司三、四年或五年了，所以到达这里并不容易。
And to get to L3 here, you are looking for repeatability.
为了达到 L3，您需要寻找可重复性。
The marginal customer has become much easier.
边际客户变得更加容易。
Todd Jackson: And so you mentioned, Lenny, this quote from David Hsu from Retool, which I love too, and I'll read it again.
托德·杰克逊：莱尼，你提到了《Retool》中 David Hsu 的这句话，我也喜欢这句话，我会再读一遍。
He said, "We talked to someone who said that finding product-market fit was so visceral, you immediately felt it like a geyser." And we honestly never felt that in the first couple years.
他说：“我们采访过一个人，他说找到产品与市场的契合点是如此发自内心，你立刻就会感觉到它就像间歇泉一样。”老实说，在最初的几年里我们从未有过这种感觉。
At Retool, every customer we got, whether that was number four or number 14, felt like the last customer we were ever going to find.
在 Retool，我们遇到的每一位客户，无论是 4 号还是 14 号，都感觉像是我们要找到的最后一个客户。
It felt like rolling the stone uphill, and if you stop pushing, it's going to roll back on you and crush you.
这感觉就像把石头滚上山，如果你停止推，它就会滚回你身上，压碎你。
Todd Jackson: And that's how it felt until we had a few million in ARR.
Todd Jackson：这就是我们在 ARR 达到几百万之前的感觉。
That's when the boulder went down the other side and we had to chase it to keep up.
就在那时，巨石从另一边掉了下来，我们不得不追着它才能跟上。
And you mentioned earlier, founders were like, "I'm not sure I ever felt product-market fit." This is when you start to feel it.
你之前提到过，创始人会说，“我不确定我是否感觉到产品与市场的契合。”这是你开始感觉到的时候。
And Jack Altman, again, from Lattice said, "The biggest shift was in the ease of getting leads." I remember thinking, "I don't even know where these leads are coming from, just more and more of them are showing up each month."
莱迪思的杰克·奥特曼（Jack Altman）再次表示，“最大的转变在于获得线索的容易程度。”我记得我当时想：“我什至不知道这些线索来自哪里，只是每个月都有越来越多的线索出现。”
Todd Jackson: But that is a great feeling.
托德·杰克逊：但那是一种很棒的感觉。
That is a great feeling.
这是一种很棒的感觉。
Filip Kaliszan from Verkada, he's in some of the videos on our website too.
来自 Verkada 的 Filip Kaliszan，他也出现在我们网站上的一些视频中。
His quote, I'll read it, was, "After our first year of sales in 2018, those next two years were crazy.
我会读一下他的引言：“在 2018 年第一年的销售之后，接下来的两年非常疯狂。
We were barely keeping up with production.
我们几乎跟不上生产。
We had to scale all the systems.
我们必须扩展所有系统。
A lot of things had to happen in the span of 12 to 18 months in order to deliver on everything that customers were hoping the solution was going to do for them.
为了实现客户希望解决方案为他们做的一切，必须在 12 到 18 个月的时间内发生很多事情。
And that in itself was a very formative and tricky part of the journey."
这本身就是整个旅程中非常具有影响力和棘手的部分。”
Todd Jackson: So the benchmarks when you are at level three are now you're probably 30 to 100 people inside your company.
Todd Jackson：所以，当你处于第三级时，基准是现在公司内可能有 30 到 100 名员工。
You're probably at Series B-ish territory in terms of venture, maybe late Series A, maybe early Series C, but probably around Series B.
就风险投资而言，你可能处于 B 轮融资领域，也许是 A 轮融资后期，也许是 C 轮融资早期，但也可能是 B 轮融资左右。
You've really cracked a demand channel.
你确实打通了需求渠道。
You've cracked marketing and sales.
您已经破解了营销和销售。
You've got at least one channel that is very scalable.
您至少有一个可扩展性很强的渠道。
And probably 10% or more of your inbound is coming from just referrals and word of mouth and you're getting known, like we talked about.
可能 10% 或更多的入站流量仅来自推荐和口碑，并且您正在变得出名，就像我们谈到的那样。
Todd Jackson: ACV ranges are very high.
托德·杰克逊：ACV 范围非常高。
Very wide, I should say.
我应该说，非常宽。
I'd say where you want to get to with level three is 100 customers.
我想说，您想要达到的第三级目标是 100 个客户。
And so if you're approaching 100 customers and maybe you have 75K average ACV, that would be strong.
因此，如果您接近 100 名客户，并且您的平均 ACV 可能为 75,000，那么这将是很强劲的。
You're in this wide zone of five million, all the way up to 25 million ARR.
您处于 500 万 ARR 的广阔区域，一直到 2500 万 ARR。
That is very level three.
这已经是第三级了。
And you're actually starting now to think about some of these efficiency metrics.
实际上，您现在开始考虑其中一些效率指标。
Remember, we've been punting efficiency.
请记住，我们一直在注重投注效率。
We were saying it shouldn't be worse than a certain number, but it's not a focus.
我们说它不应该比某个数字更糟糕，但这不是焦点。
Now, it's got to come into focus.
现在，它必须成为焦点。
Todd Jackson: Because the way that we get to level four is we keep ripping on the satisfaction and the demand, and we tune this thing to get very efficient.
托德·杰克逊：因为我们达到第四级的方法是不断提高满意度和需求，并且我们将其调整为非常高效。
So we're talking about our gross margin needs to be above 60%, hopefully above 70%.
所以我们说我们的毛利率需要高于 60%，希望高于 70%。
Our burn multiple is now below three.
我们的燃烧倍数现在低于三。
Ideally, we're close to one.
理想情况下，我们已经接近这一目标了。
Burn multiple in the one to three zone is where we want to be at level three.
一到三区域的燃烧倍数是我们想要达到的第三级。
Regretted churn's less than 10%, NRR is greater than 110%.
遗憾流失率小于10%，NRR大于110%。
These are good benchmarks for this level.
这些是该级别的良好基准。
Lenny Rachitsky: Hearing level three again tells me level two is basically your pivot from: I'm just grinding customers, selling, pitching, constantly trying to find new people, to level three, where it's coming at you and basically, it's the way you always hear about it, as you described.
Lenny Rachitsky：听到第三级再次告诉我第二级基本上是你的支点：我只是在磨练客户，销售，推销，不断尝试寻找新人，到第三级，它向你袭来，基本上，这就是你总是听到的方式，正如你所描述的。
It's rolling downhill.
它正在滚下坡。
Fish are jumping in the boat.
鱼儿在船上跳跃。
I haven't heard that one before, but I love this.
我以前没听过这个，但我喜欢这个。
Lenny Rachitsky: So essentially, you found a demand channel.
Lenny Rachitsky：本质上，你找到了一个需求渠道。
You found a way to get people to come to you.
你找到了一种让人们来找你的方法。
A lot of them are just hearing about you from other people, you don't even know where they're coming from.
他们中的很多人只是从其他人那里听说你，你甚至不知道他们来自哪里。
10% you said are coming from referrals and you're getting to 100 customers.
您所说的 10% 来自推荐，您将获得 100 个客户。
I actually have another quote from David Hsu at Retool, and he actually said even at 100 customers, he still felt like every customer he was getting was the last one.
事实上，我还引用了 Retool 的 David Hsu 的话，他实际上说过，即使有 100 个客户，他仍然觉得他遇到的每个客户都是最后一个。
Lenny Rachitsky: He's like, "I can't believe we got DoorDash.
Lenny Rachitsky：他说，“我不敢相信我们有了 DoorDash。
That's incredible.
这太不可思议了。
Okay.
好的。
I think there's no more.
我想没有更多了。
That's it."
就是这样。”
Todd Jackson: He is a critical person and critical of himself, but a very high expectations person, let's say.
托德·杰克逊：可以说，他是一个挑剔的人，对自己也很挑剔，但也是一个期望很高的人。
Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。
Actually, another quote from Ali Ghodsi from Databricks actually said even at 100 million, he wasn't sure they had product-market fit.
事实上，Databricks 的 Ali Ghodsi 的另一句话实际上说，即使是 1 亿，他也不确定他们是否适合产品市场。
Lenny Rachitsky: Because he's like, "I don't know." I don't know.
Lenny Rachitsky：因为他说，“我不知道。”我不知道。
He felt like, "This is it.
他的感觉是：“就是这样了。
Okay, we're done.
好的，我们完成了。
We're going to cap out here." And I get that.
我们要在这里结束。”我明白了。
Todd Jackson: I think if you told many, many pre-seed founders that they'd be able to get to 100 million and not know whether they had product-market fit, they'd probably take that.
托德·杰克逊：我认为，如果你告诉很多很多种子前创始人，他们能够达到 1 亿美元，但不知道他们的产品是否适合市场，他们可能会接受。
Lenny Rachitsky: But I think that's maybe an interesting insight.
Lenny Rachitsky：但我认为这可能是一个有趣的见解。
It's often good to be really paranoid and not feel like, "Okay, we're on our way.
真正偏执而不是感觉“好吧，我们已经上路了”通常是件好事。
Let's start pouring in money.
让我们开始投入资金吧。
Let's do it."
让我们开始吧。”
Todd Jackson: I think that's what makes a lot of the best founders the best.
托德·杰克逊：我认为这就是让许多最好的创始人成为最好的创始人的原因。
Lenny Rachitsky: Indeed.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：确实如此。
Okay, so level three, anything else that would be useful here?
好的，第三级，这里还有什么有用的吗？
Maybe what are signs that you're struggling at level three, you're stuck?
也许什么迹象表明你在第三级挣扎，你被困住了？
Todd Jackson: Yeah.
托德·杰克逊：是的。
So level three problems.
所以第三级问题。
And again, it's hard to get to level three, so awesome work for getting here.
再说一次，达到第三级是很困难的，所以到达这里真是太棒了。
But the problems that might start to emerge are you've got a leaky bucket, your NRR is below 90%, or your regretted churn's greater than 10%.
但可能开始出现的问题是您的桶漏了，您的 NRR 低于 90%，或者您后悔的流失率超过 10%。
Maybe growth is just slowing down.
也许增长只是放缓。
You grew three X each of the prior two years, but you're struggling to do a two X this year.
前两年你每年都会增长 3 个 X，但今年你很难实现 2 个 X。
At level three, or five years into the company or so, there's probably a lot of competition.
在第三级，或者进入公司五年左右，可能会有很多竞争。
If you've gotten here, you've got something that's working, and people are starting to notice and there's going to be competitors.
如果你已经到达这里，你就已经有了一些有效的东西，人们开始注意到，并且将会有竞争对手。
Todd Jackson: And they could be the big competitors, they could be the new startups, but you're going to have to figure out how to navigate probably a tougher market than you entered five years ago.
托德·杰克逊：他们可能是大的竞争对手，他们可能是新的初创公司，但你必须弄清楚如何驾驭一个可能比五年前更艰难的市场。
And so maybe you found your first scalable channel, but it's getting saturated, you got to find a new channel.
因此，也许您找到了第一个可扩展的渠道，但它已经饱和，您必须找到一个新的渠道。
These are the level three problems.
这些是第三级问题。
Or you're growing, but like I said, with efficiency, you're spending too much money to grow.
或者你正在成长，但就像我说的，就效率而言，你花费了太多的钱来成长。
So you feel like, "Okay, yeah, we can grow at three X year over year, two X year over year, but that's going to push our burn multiple above three again." And that's a little bit of a pickle to be in when you have to trade off growth and spend like that.
所以你会觉得，“好吧，是的，我们可以每年增长 3 X，每年增长 2 X，但这将使我们的燃烧倍数再次超过 3。”当你必须在增长和支出之间进行权衡时，这就有点麻烦了。
Lenny Rachitsky: You make it sound like life's great, level three people are coming at us.
Lenny Rachitsky：你听起来好像生活很美好，三级人正在向我们走来。
I think it's important to note never is it easy, never is it like, "Okay, we're good.
我认为重要的是要注意，这从来都不是一件容易的事，从来都不是“好吧，我们很好。
Let's just ride this wave.
让我们乘这波浪潮吧。
Life's going to get so much easier from now on." It's never easy.
从现在开始，生活会变得更加轻松。”这从来都不容易。
As you said, there's all these things, you're always still juggling, you still aren't sure it's going to keep going.
正如你所说，有所有这些事情，你总是在杂耍，你仍然不确定它会继续下去。
Todd Jackson: No, I agree.
托德·杰克逊：不，我同意。
It's like you're spinning plates, and the higher levels you get, there's more plates.
这就像你在旋转盘子，等级越高，盘子就越多。
You have to keep spinning.
你必须继续旋转。
And so at level three and getting to level four, we've got to maintain satisfaction and demand.
因此，从第三级到第四级，我们必须保持满意度和需求。
We cannot let them regress in a market that's getting harder, and we have to really start focusing on efficiency.
我们不能让他们在日益困难的市场中倒退，我们必须真正开始关注效率。
And the companies that can maintain satisfaction and demand and continue to grow and become really efficient, now we're at level four.
那些能够保持满意度和需求并继续增长并变得真正高效的公司，现在我们处于第四级。
Lenny Rachitsky: Let's talk about level four.
Lenny Rachitsky：我们来谈谈第四级。
What does that look like?
那看起来像什么？
What are some problems people run into there?
人们在那里遇到了哪些问题？
Todd Jackson: So first of all, congrats.
托德·杰克逊：首先，恭喜。
If you get to level four, you have a valuable company.
如果你达到第四级，你就拥有了一家有价值的公司。
You are probably already a unicorn, and you're starting to think about, "Can I become a decacorn?" And so you've reached the highest levels of satisfaction, demand, and efficiency.
你可能已经是独角兽了，你开始思考，“我可以成为十角兽吗？”这样您就达到了最高水平的满意度、需求和效率。
And so the benchmarks at level four are like, "Okay, now your team is probably bigger than 100 people, you're Series C, Series D or beyond.
所以第四级的基准就像是，“好吧，现在你的团队可能超过 100 人，你是 C 轮、D 轮或更高。
You've got more than 100 customers and you're starting to figure out, 'How do I get to 200, 300, eventually 1,000 customers?'" You're beyond 25 million in ARR, so 25 million and up, I think in ARR, it qualifies as level four.
您已经拥有超过 100 名客户，您开始思考，‘我如何才能达到 200、300，最终 1,000 名客户？’”您的 ARR 超过了 2500 万，所以我认为在 ARR 中，2500 万及以上就符合第四级的要求。
And your other metrics are looking really good too.
您的其他指标看起来也非常好。
Your sales conversion first call to close one is probably better than 15%, your magic number is greater than one, your tax payback is less than 12 months.
您的首次销售转化率可能高于 15%，您的神奇数字大于 1，您的纳税回收期不到 12 个月。
Todd Jackson: All these things are super awesome.
托德·杰克逊：所有这些事情都非常棒。
And finally, now you've got your gross margin above 80%.
最后，现在您的毛利率已超过 80%。
Your burn multiple's ideally less than one at this point, you've got less than 10% churn.
此时您的燃烧倍数理想情况下小于 1，您的流失率小于 10%。
You've got greater than 120% NRR.
您的 NRR 超过 120%。
And so now the whole thing is like, "Well, how do I keep growing?" This thing's gotten pretty big.
所以现在整件事就像是，“那么，我如何不断成长？”这件事已经闹得相当大了。
And this is generally when we get to 100 million, especially and beyond, the stage that founders are thinking about, "How do I keep growing by expanding TAM, by expanding total addressable market?" And to expand TAM, I can usually take my product and bring it into new markets, or I start to think about multiple products as a way to expand TAM.
这通常是当我们达到 1 亿，尤其是超过 1 亿时，创始人正在思考的阶段：“我如何通过扩大 TAM、通过扩大总目标市场来保持增长？”为了扩展 TAM，我通常可以将我的产品带入新市场，或者我开始考虑使用多种产品来扩展 TAM。
Todd Jackson: And so this is where you see all the truly great companies, the legendary companies are all able to do that.
托德·杰克逊：所以在这里你可以看到所有真正伟大的公司，传奇公司都能够做到这一点。
Vanta has begun to do this.
万塔已经开始这样做了。
They have the Vanta trust management platform, they've got security questionnaires, they've got vendor risk management.
他们有 Vanta 信任管理平台、安全调查问卷、供应商风险管理。
So they're starting to do this.
所以他们开始这样做。
You think of Verkada, who I mentioned before.
你会想到我之前提到过的 Verkada。
They started with cloud security cameras, now they do alarms, now they do smoke detectors, now they do badge readers.
他们从云安全摄像头开始，现在他们做警报器，现在他们做烟雾探测器，现在他们做徽章阅读器。
Stripe has classic Stripe, but they've got Stripe Radar, Stripe Atlas.
Stripe 有经典的 Stripe，但他们有 Stripe Radar、Stripe Atlas。
Square has the Square Stand, Cash App, Square Checking, Square Loans.
Square 拥有 Square Stand、Cash App、Square Checking、Square Loans。
All the companies that are tens of billions of dollars of value have figured out a way to do this.
所有价值数百亿美元的公司都找到了做到这一点的方法。
And it's like the never-ending journey that you said before, Lenny.
这就像你之前所说的永无止境的旅程，莱尼。
Like, "Congrats, you got to level four."
就像，“恭喜你，你达到了四级。”
Todd Jackson: But there's just this endless thirst for continued growth.
托德·杰克逊：但是人们对持续增长有着无尽的渴望。
And the interesting thing about that is that it requires finding product-market fit over and over again.
有趣的是，它需要一遍又一遍地寻找产品与市场的契合点。
Just because you got to level four on your main product doesn't mean product-market fit is free on all these new products.
仅仅因为你的主要产品达到了第四级，并不意味着所有这些新产品的产品市场契合度都是免费的。
And you've been inside Airbnb and I've been inside Dropbox and Twitter.
你去过 Airbnb，我去过 Dropbox 和 Twitter。
Getting new products to be successful is hard and it requires this mindset of like, "Yeah, we've got a little bit of advantage because people know who we are, and we have a customer set that hopefully we can layer on new products to.
让新产品取得成功是很困难的，它需要这样的心态：“是的，我们有一点优势，因为人们知道我们是谁，而且我们有一批客户，希望我们可以向他们推出新产品。
But it's not easy." You have to get into this mindset of product-market fit is never easy, and if we want to continue to grow, we got to find it again and again and maintain that mindset.
但这并不容易。”你必须进入产品与市场契合的心态从来都不是一件容易的事，如果我们想继续增长，我们就必须一次又一次地找到它并保持这种心态。
Lenny Rachitsky: Casey Winters has this great point also that expectations of customers ever increase.
Lenny Rachitsky：Casey Winters 也有一个很重要的观点，即客户的期望不断增加。
And so you have product-market fit today, but there's going to be better products coming out, they're changing, the world changes.
因此，今天的产品与市场相适应，但将会有更好的产品问世，它们正在发生变化，世界也在发生变化。
And so not only do you have to worry about competitors, there's just expectations continue to rise.
因此，您不仅要担心竞争对手，而且期望会不断上升。
So it's a never-ending battle.
所以这是一场永无休止的战斗。
To give people a little bit of a broader sense here, what percentage of companies do you find make it through each of these stages in your experience, what are rough numbers you may have in your head?
为了让人们有一个更广泛的了解，根据您的经验，您发现有多少百分比的公司能够通过每个阶段，您脑海中可能有哪些粗略的数字？
Todd Jackson: The majority of companies, so greater than 50%, probably closer to 60 or 70%, are going to get stuck at L1 or L2.
Todd Jackson：大多数公司（超过 50%，可能接近 60 或 70%）将陷入 L1 或 L2 困境。
And so that leaves, roughly, let's say, 30% make it to L3 or L4 just in our experience looking broadly.
因此，根据我们的经验来看，大约有 30% 的人能够进入 L3 或 L4。
And that's our entire goal.
这就是我们的全部目标。
Because again, once you get to L3, you've got a real shot, you've got a real shot at building an awesome company.
因为一旦你达到了 L3，你就有了真正的机会，你就有了建立一家出色公司的真正机会。
And so if we get that number, help founders get that number above 30%, imagine if that was 50/50 and half the companies that we were working with at seed were able to get to level three strong product-market fit.
因此，如果我们得到这个数字，帮助创始人将这个数字提高到 30% 以上，想象一下，如果这是 50/50，那么我们在种子期合作的公司中有一半能够达到第三级的强大产品市场契合度。
I think that would be epic.
我认为那将是史诗般的。
And I think our founders would...
我认为我们的创始人会...
There'd be incredible benefits to the ecosystem from that.
这会给生态系统带来难以置信的好处。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。
So essentially, 60% ish of companies don't make it past L2.
因此，从本质上讲，60% 左右的公司未能通过 L2。
And I love the way you're framing it of just, "If we can just get a few more companies further, that makes a massive dent both in the world and the lives of founders and people that want to use products." Another question I wanted to talk about briefly is just again, the timelines of each of these levels.
我喜欢你的表述方式，“如果我们能够进一步发展更多的公司，这会对世界以及创始人和想要使用产品的人们的生活产生巨大的影响。”我想简单谈谈的另一个问题是每个级别的时间表。
Just in your rough experience, how long do each of these levels roughly take so people can get a sense of like, "Oh, it's taken a lot longer.
就你的粗略经验而言，每个级别大约需要多长时间，这样人们才会有这样的感觉：“哦，花了更长的时间。
Maybe there's a problem"?
也许有问题”？
Todd Jackson: So again, this whole thing probably takes four to six years, and so let's just pick five years as the number to get to level four.
托德·杰克逊：再说一次，整个事情可能需要四到六年的时间，所以我们选择五年作为达到第四级的时间。
I think the way this works, ideally, is you probably take 12 to 18 months to do level one, because that is the most important level, honestly, in my mind because that's where you're really choosing the right persona and the right problem to focus on.
我认为理想情况下，它的工作方式是你可能需要 12 到 18 个月的时间来完成第一级，因为老实说，在我看来，这是最重要的级别，因为这是你真正选择正确的角色和要关注的正确问题的地方。
And I think just that choice is one of the most important choices that founders make.
我认为这种选择是创始人做出的最重要的选择之一。
And the interesting thing, my partner, Josh Kopelman, talks about this all the time, is that founders spend 99% of their time building because that's what they've done.
有趣的是，我的合伙人 Josh Kopelman 一直在谈论这一点，创始人花费 99% 的时间进行建设，因为这就是他们所做的事情。
Todd Jackson: And they spend 1% of their time picking, in picking the market, picking the problem, picking the customer.
托德·杰克逊：他们花费 1% 的时间来挑选、挑选市场、挑选问题、挑选客户。
And in reality, it's that pick that determines the constraints and the boundaries of where you're going to be working for the next, hopefully, 10 years of your life.
事实上，正是这个选择决定了你未来十年（希望是）你将在哪里工作的限制和界限。
So there's a real imbalance there.
所以那里确实存在不平衡。
And I actually think that that pick is the most important thing.
事实上我认为这个选择是最重要的。
So I would actually like to spend, let's say, somewhere 12 to 18 months in level one, just really figuring that out and figuring out my four Ps.
所以我实际上愿意花 12 到 18 个月的时间在第一级，只是真正弄清楚这一点并弄清楚我的四个 P。
And then, hopefully, I move very quickly.
然后，希望我能迅速行动。
It takes me a while to get to my first five satisfied customers, but they love it.
我花了一段时间才获得前五名满意的客户，但他们很喜欢。
Todd Jackson: And then I go quickly through L2, maybe that takes about a year.
托德·杰克逊：然后我很快就完成了 L2，也许需要一年左右的时间。
This is like the Looker path, the happy path.
这就像Looker路径，快乐路径。
And then L3 is long just because we're going all the way from five million in revenue up to 25, and that might take a year or two, probably two years even in a good case.
然后 L3 很长，因为我们的收入要从 500 万上升到 25，这可能需要一两年，即使在好的情况下也可能需要两年。
And then getting from 25 to 100 million is hard, obviously very hard.
从 25 亿到 1 亿是很困难的，显然非常困难。
And then that probably takes a couple years.
然后这可能需要几年的时间。
And then you're figuring out all of these things.
然后你就会弄清楚所有这些事情。
Todd Jackson: You're growing your team and your company's got a lot more moving parts and functions, and there's a demand generation side of the house and sales and there's engineering and the whole thing just gets more complicated with a lot more people.
托德·杰克逊：你正在壮大你的团队，你的公司有更多的活动部件和功能，还有需求生成方面的房子和销售，还有工程，随着更多的人，整个事情变得更加复杂。
But I think that if you set the foundation really nicely at level one and level two that hopefully the whole thing...
但我认为，如果你在第一级和第二级打下很好的基础，那么希望整个事情......
The boulder is rolling down the hill and it's carrying you forward and you don't just feel like you're pushing this rock uphill for five years.
巨石从山上滚下来，它带着你前进，你不只是感觉自己推着这块石头上山五年了。
That's not a fun place to be.
那不是一个有趣的地方。
Lenny Rachitsky: There's a lot of founders in that place and I know a few, so this is really interesting.
Lenny Rachitsky：那个地方有很多创始人，我认识一些，所以这真的很有趣。
So you're roughly saying that maybe spend a year, year and a half on level one, which is you're just grinding, cold emailing, reaching out, selling customers, and maybe getting to five customers in the first year and a half.
所以你粗略地说，可能要花一年、一年半的时间在第一级，也就是说，你只是在磨练、发冷邮件、接触客户、销售客户，也许在第一年半的时间里接触到五个客户。
That's at the extreme, but that's a good outcome.
这是极端的情况，但也是一个好的结果。
And then maybe another year trying to get to...
然后也许再过一年尝试......
What was it?
那是什么？
20?
20？
25 customers.
25 名客户。
Todd Jackson: Going from five to 25 quickly.
托德·杰克逊：很快就从 5 人增加到 25 人。
Yeah, if I see a company go from five customers to 25 in a year, that is almost always a sign that there's some pretty strong product-market fit there.
是的，如果我看到一家公司在一年内从 5 个客户增加到 25 个，这几乎总是表明该公司存在一些非常强大的产品市场契合度。
Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
So many companies don't go through that, and they have the funding to keep iterating, exploring, trying to figure things out.
很多公司都没有经历过这些，但他们有资金不断迭代、探索、试图解决问题。
I don't know if you have the answer here, but just what's your advice of if it's been four years and demand is not starting to come to them, they don't have 25 customers?
我不知道你是否已经有了答案，但如果四年过去了，他们还没有开始出现需求，他们还没有 25 个客户，你有什么建议呢？
Is it, "Wait until you run out of money, just give it a shot"?
是不是“等钱没了，再试试”？
Or is it, "Let's just give the money back and move on to something else"?
或者是，“我们把钱还给我们，然后继续做其他事情吧”？
Todd Jackson: Well, that's a personal decision for founders.
托德·杰克逊：嗯，这是创始人的个人决定。
I do think if you've been going at it for four to five years and you haven't started to find anything that you're really feeling pull from the market on, I don't know, you've done it for four to five years, what are the chances that you're going to magically find something?
我确实认为，如果你已经做了四到五年了，但还没有开始找到任何你真正觉得可以从市场上拉动的东西，我不知道，你已经做了四到五年了，你会神奇地找到一些东西的机会有多大？
I think there are probably a handful of startups that do it that figure it out and get back on an amazing growth curve, but that's the exception rather than the rule.
我认为可能有少数初创公司能够解决这个问题并重新回到惊人的增长曲线，但这是例外而不是规则。
Todd Jackson: So if a founder wants to return the money to investors, if a founder wants to look for a soft landing, there's no shame in that.
托德·杰克逊：因此，如果创始人想将资金返还给投资者，如果创始人想寻求软着陆，那没有什么可耻的。
Product-market fit is very, very hard.
产品与市场的契合非常非常困难。
That's why we're doing this.
这就是我们这样做的原因。
It's why we're trying to increase the odds.
这就是为什么我们要努力增加几率。
And we're also trying to make it clear what it looks like and what it doesn't look like.
我们还试图弄清楚它是什么样子和不是什么样子。
And everybody knows when they do a startup that the odds are that you will not get there.
每个人都知道，当他们创业时，你很可能无法实现这一目标。
So there's no shame in that, and I would completely be supportive of any founder who wants to take that path.
所以这并不可耻，我完全支持任何想走这条路的创始人。
Lenny Rachitsky: I love that advice.
Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢这个建议。
I think that was a really important point to make.
我认为这是非常重要的一点。
Let's quickly summarize the levels and then I want to also summarize the four Ps again, because I think that's the thing you can actually do.
让我们快速总结一下各个级别，然后我想再次总结一下四个 P，因为我认为这是你实际上可以做的事情。
And so I think I just want to reinforce, "Here's the four things you should play with if things aren't going in the direction." So first of all, let's summarize the levels, what it looks like and what you should be focusing on there.
所以我想我只是想强调，“如果事情没有朝这个方向发展，你应该考虑以下四件事。”首先，让我们总结一下各个级别、它的外观以及您应该关注的内容。
Todd Jackson: Okay.
托德·杰克逊：好的。
So level one, nascent product-market fit.
第一级，新生的产品与市场的契合。
You're just trying to get three to five customers and you're focused on satisfaction first and foremost.
您只是想吸引三到五个客户，并且您首先关注的是满意度。
Level two is developing.
第二级正在发展。
This is where you're going from five to 25 customers, and you're really starting to focus on demand.
这是您从 5 到 25 名客户的地方，您真正开始关注需求。
Level three is strong product-market fit.
第三级是产品与市场的紧密契合。
You're going from 25 customers up to 100 or more, and you've got to start thinking about efficiency at that scale.
您的客户数量将从 25 个增加到 100 个或更多，您必须开始考虑这种规模的效率。
And then level four is extreme, you're more than 100 customers, your company's awesome.
第四级是极端的，你有 100 多个客户，你的公司很棒。
You got to keep doing all three of those things well, and you have to start looking for ways to expand your total addressable market.
你必须继续做好这三件事，并且必须开始寻找扩大总目标市场的方法。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, perfect.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的，完美。
And then let's come back to the four Ps.
然后让我们回到四个 P。
I have the draft.
我有草稿。
I have your post up here, so I have the detailed version of each of these things.
我这里有你的帖子，所以我有每件事的详细版本。
But could you just talk through these four things?
但您能简单谈谈这四件事吗？
What is it you should be thinking about changing if things aren't working, the four Ps basically?
如果事情不起作用，你应该考虑改变什么，基本上是四个 P？
Todd Jackson: Yeah.
托德·杰克逊：是的。
So the four Ps again are: persona, problem, promise, and product.
因此，四个 P 又是：角色、问题、承诺和产品。
And the persona is interesting because in some ways, it's synonymous with the market.
这个角色很有趣，因为在某些方面，它是市场的代名词。
A lot of people think of the market in this macroeconomic way where it's like, "Oh, it's this category of ERP software or whatever." I think it's much more tangible for a founder to think of the market as a collection of people.
很多人以宏观经济的方式思考市场，就像“哦，这是 ERP 软件或其他软件类别”。我认为对于创始人来说，将市场视为人们的集合更为切实。
Jack Altman was thinking about his market as all of the HR leaders out there, and he was thinking about how many of them are there and what are the problems they have and how much money are they willing to spend on solving those problems.
杰克·奥特曼（Jack Altman）正在考虑他的市场，就像所有人力资源领导者一样，他正在考虑那里有多少人，他们有什么问题，以及他们愿意花多少钱来解决这些问题。
Todd Jackson: It's a collection of people who have money to pay for a product or pay for a service.
托德·杰克逊：这是一群有钱购买产品或服务的人。
And so that's really the first piece, find the persona and really try to get into the mind of the persona.
所以这确实是第一部分，找到角色并真正尝试进入角色的思想。
That's another thing I was amazed about spending time with Zach from Plaid, and Lloyd from Looker, and Jack from Lattice.
与 Plaid 的 Zach、Looker 的 Lloyd 和 Lattice 的 Jack 共度时光，这也是我感到惊讶的另一件事。
They had all of these people, they were text messaging with all of their customers and they're meeting them on the weekends and stuff.
他们拥有所有这些人，他们与所有客户发短信，并且在周末等时间与他们会面。
They really, really knew their customer well.
他们真的非常了解他们的客户。
They were friends with their customers.
他们和顾客是朋友。
Todd Jackson: And so you've got to get so deep into the mind of the persona and: what are their challenges?
托德·杰克逊：所以你必须深入了解角色的思想：他们面临的挑战是什么？
What are their goals?
他们的目标是什么？
How do you help them succeed at their job?
您如何帮助他们在工作中取得成功？
That's the stuff that earns you the right to get the rest of the Ps right.
这就是让你有权正确完成其余 P 的内容。
And so the problem, obviously, comes next.
显然，接下来的问题就来了。
And I think about this, and I can actually get into, Lenny, a little bit if you want to get into some of the customer discovery stuff because that's the second session.
我想到了这一点，如果你想了解一些客户发现的内容，我实际上可以稍微谈谈，莱尼，因为这是第二次会议。
Todd Jackson: And I was talking a little bit about we think of it as dollar-driven customer discovery.
托德·杰克逊：我刚才谈到了我们将其视为由美元驱动的客户发现。
And I think a lot of founders are familiar with customer discovery.
我认为很多创始人都熟悉客户发现。
I think they at least talk to customers, which is good.
我认为他们至少与客户交谈，这很好。
I don't think most of them do it in the highest signal way because again, the customers, they're people, they're nice, they're going to be polite.
我不认为他们中的大多数人会以最高信号的方式这样做，因为顾客也是人，他们很好，他们会有礼貌。
They're also not good at predicting things that they will use or buy or want.
他们也不擅长预测他们将使用、购买或想要的东西。
Todd Jackson: They're very good at talking about their problems, but they're not necessarily good at predicting their own behavior.
托德·杰克逊：他们非常擅长谈论自己的问题，但他们不一定擅长预测自己的行为。
So we think about it in terms of dollar-driven discovery, which is how do you test the dollar potential of a hypothesis?
因此，我们从美元驱动的发现角度来思考，即如何测试假设的美元潜力？
And this is a whole two-hour session, but I'll try to do it briefly here just to give you a sense of it.
这是一个完整的两个小时的会议，但我将尝试在这里简要介绍一下，以便让您有一个了解。
Lenny Rachitsky: No, let's get into it.
Lenny Rachitsky：不，让我们开始吧。
Let's keep going.
我们继续吧。
I'm just joking.
我只是开玩笑。
Todd Jackson: So you've got to identify extreme value.
托德·杰克逊：所以你必须识别极值。
This is independent of what I'm building, Lenny.
这与我正在构建的内容无关，莱尼。
I want to hear about your problems and your challenges and what is most important to you.
我想听听您的问题和挑战以及对您来说最重要的事情。
And so I need to do it in this non-leading way and I need to avoid the trap that we call happy years.
所以我需要以这种非主导的方式来做这件事，我需要避免我们称之为快乐岁月的陷阱。
Because I found a lot of founders, "I want to build this thing, I want you to like my thing." And so I look for the things that you say that support what I'm doing.
因为我找到了很多创始人，“我想打造这个东西，我希望你喜欢我的东西。”所以我会寻找你所说的支持我正在做的事情。
That's the trap.
这就是陷阱。
And so I could just try it on you, Lenny.
所以我可以在你身上试试，莱尼。
Yeah, I might say...
是的，我可能会说...
Todd Jackson: Okay, Lenny, so you're doing Lenny's Newsletter and you're building Lenny's Podcasts.
托德·杰克逊：好的，莱尼，你正在制作莱尼的时事通讯，并且正在构建莱尼的播客。
When you think about we're sitting here in April, over the next three months, let's say, what are your top three goals for Lenny's Newsletter and Lenny's Podcast?
当您想到我们四月份坐在这里时，在接下来的三个月里，您对莱尼的时事通讯和莱尼的播客的三大目标是什么？
Lenny Rachitsky: Oh, wow, interesting.
Lenny Rachitsky：哦，哇，有趣。
I'm trying to find a more scalable way to do this newsletter long-term.
我正在尝试寻找一种更具可扩展性的方式来长期制作这份时事通讯。
It's basically something I have to do for the rest of my life, in theory.
从理论上讲，这基本上是我余生必须做的事情。
I don't know if there's an exit path for this newsletter career, so I'm trying to find ways to scale this over time.
我不知道这个时事通讯职业是否有退出路径，所以我正在努力寻找随着时间的推移扩展它的方法。
That's one.
这是一个。
Two is just up-leveling the quality of each podcast episode in terms of visuals and audio and trailers and things like that.
第二个就是提高每个播客剧集在视觉、音频和预告片等方面的质量。
And then three is make the community more valuable to everyone that listens that's in the newsletter community.
第三是让社区对时事通讯社区中的每个收听者都更有价值。
Those are top of mind.
这些是最重要的。
Todd Jackson: Okay, awesome.
托德·杰克逊：好的，太棒了。
And so what's hard about those three things?
那么这三件事有什么难的呢？
You said you want to scale the newsletter, you want to increase quality, you want to make the community awesome.
您说您想要扩大时事通讯的规模，想要提高质量，想要让社区变得很棒。
What's hard about those things?
这些事情有什么难的呢？
Or what's standing in your way of doing those?
或者是什么阻碍了你这样做？
Lenny Rachitsky: I don't have the answer yet, I guess is the answer.
Lenny Rachitsky：我还没有答案，但我想就是答案了。
I don't know exactly how to do this yet.
我还不知道具体该怎么做。
Todd Jackson: You don't know how to do it.
托德·杰克逊：你不知道该怎么做。
Okay.
好的。
It's probably a service in this case, not a product.
在这种情况下，它可能是一种服务，而不是一种产品。
What if I was able to give you a service that said, "Lenny, you're going to be able to scale this podcast.
如果我能够为你提供一项服务，说：“莱尼，你将能够扩展这个播客。
We are going to help you find the 500 best guests in the world that are really excellent.
我们将帮助您找到世界上真正优秀的 500 名最佳宾客。
We're going to guarantee they show up.
我们将保证他们出现。
You're going to have endless content on your podcast, in your newsletter"?
您的播客和时事通讯中将会有无穷无尽的内容”？
What do you think about that?
你对此有何看法？
What do you think about that idea?
你觉得这个想法怎么样？
Lenny Rachitsky: I'd pay a lot of money for that.
Lenny Rachitsky：我愿意为此付出很多钱。
Todd Jackson: Okay.
托德·杰克逊：好的。
So that's an example of a wow statement.
这就是一个令人惊叹的声明的例子。
And you probably had in the back of your mind, "How are you going to do that?
你可能在心里想：“你打算怎么做？
Is that actually going to work?"
这真的能起作用吗？”
Todd Jackson: In my experience, that's a good thing and an exciting thing.
托德·杰克逊：根据我的经验，这是一件好事，也是一件令人兴奋的事情。
If I'm pitching a product idea to somebody and they are like, "Wow, does that really work?
如果我向某人推销一个产品创意，他们会说：“哇，这真的有用吗？
And if that thing works, I'd sign up for the wait list today." That to me is like, "Okay, now I got to figure out how to build that thing, but I know if I am able to build it and deliver on that promise, they are going to want it." Or you would maybe say signs like you would demonstrate a behavior that shows that you're interested in.
如果那件事有效，我今天就会报名参加等候名单。”对我来说，这就像，“好吧，现在我必须弄清楚如何建造那个东西，但我知道如果我能够建造它并兑现这个承诺，他们就会想要它。”或者你可能会说这样的迹象，比如你会表现出一种表明你感兴趣的行为。
You'd be like, "Oh, Todd, can we meet again next week to talk about this?" Or like, "Hey Todd, I actually would love to show this to the people I work with.
你会说，“哦，托德，我们可以下周再见面讨论这个吗？”或者像这样，“嘿托德，我实际上很想向与我一起工作的人展示这个。
Can you send me the deck?"
可以把板子发给我吗？”
Todd Jackson: Those are the signs that I'm looking for.
托德·杰克逊：这些就是我正在寻找的迹象。
If you had reacted like, "Yeah, that sounds kind of interesting," that's a no, right?
如果你的反应是“是的，这听起来很有趣”，那就是“不”，对吗？
That is a no. The word interesting is a polite way of saying no, right?
那是一个不。有趣这个词是一种礼貌地说“不”的方式，对吧？
And so I'm either looking for wow statements or I'm looking for demonstrated behavior that shows interest.
所以我要么寻找令人惊叹的陈述，要么寻找表现出兴趣的表现行为。
I then would probably, if I want to keep going with this, and this is all in the identifying extreme value, I'd ask you, "Well, what stands out as valuable here to you?" And I want to hear you answer quickly.
然后，如果我想继续这样做，而这一切都在于识别极端价值，那么我可能会问你，“那么，对你来说，什么是最有价值的？”我想听到你尽快回答。
You mentioned it's either going to make my products so much better, it's going to drive success for my business, or it's going to save me a bunch of money or something.
你提到它要么会让我的产品变得更好，要么推动我的业务取得成功，要么为我节省一大笔钱什么的。
Save me a bunch of risk." But something where you would very quickly be able to identify why that's valuable to you.
为我节省了很多风险。”但是你很快就能确定为什么这对你有价值。
Todd Jackson: So that part one is extreme value.
托德·杰克逊：所以第一部分非常有价值。
Then I got to figure out ability to pay and willingness to pay.
然后我必须弄清楚支付能力和支付意愿。
And for you, this is easy because you're not a 5,000 person company and you're the boss.
对于您来说，这很容易，因为您不是一家拥有 5,000 人的公司，而您是老板。
So this is probably pretty streamlined.
所以这可能是相当精简的。
There's no procurement function at Lenny's Newsletter.
莱尼时事通讯没有采购功能。
So let's say I'm going after a bigger company.
假设我正在寻找一家更大的公司。
The questions I'd ask on confirming the ability to pay are: are you currently looking for a product like this?
在确认支付能力时我会问的问题是：您目前正在寻找这样的产品吗？
Or are you building something internally?
或者你正在内部构建一些东西？
Todd Jackson: This is the Ironclad thing where Jason was like, "Oh, you're looking for a CLM already." Another way I think about it is if a customer has a problem, and I really think they have a problem, and they know they have the problem and they're looking for a solution for the problem.
Todd Jackson：这就是 Ironclad 的事情，Jason 说，“哦，你已经在寻找 CLM 了。”我思考的另一种方式是，如果客户遇到问题，我真的认为他们有问题，他们知道自己有问题，并且正在寻找问题的解决方案。
Or they've even tried to build their own solution to it and failed, that's the best customer.
或者他们甚至尝试构建自己的解决方案但失败了，那是最好的客户。
They want this thing badly.
他们非常想要这个东西。
They've demonstrated that and they've actually failed at building it because they underestimated how hard it was.
他们已经证明了这一点，但实际上他们在构建它时失败了，因为他们低估了它的难度。
So are you currently looking for building a solution here?
那么您目前正在寻找在这里构建解决方案吗？
Lenny Rachitsky: Essentially, there's a budget.
Lenny Rachitsky：本质上，有一个预算。
You're looking for, "Is there money to go towards this problem"?
您正在寻找“有钱解决这个问题吗”？
Todd Jackson: That's the next question I was going to say is where would a budget for this come from?
托德·杰克逊：我要说的下一个问题是，这方面的预算从哪里来？
And the best answer is that there's an existing budget.
最好的答案是现有预算。
Either we already spend money in some way for a competing tool, or something that can be displaced by you, or we're spending, we put five engineers together to help build this thing.
要么我们已经以某种方式花钱购买竞争工具，或者可以被你取代的东西，要么我们正在花钱，我们把五位工程师放在一起来帮助构建这个东西。
There's some source of budget that I can get.
我可以获得一些预算来源。
Then the question is, "Well, how does your team make decisions on third-party tools to bring on?" And you're never going to get the cleanest answer here.
那么问题是，“那么，您的团队如何决定采用第三方工具？”而且你永远不会在这里得到最干净的答案。
In larger companies, you might get semi-clean answers, but it's something like, "Okay, this manager can approve it directly up to a certain dollar amount.
在较大的公司中，您可能会得到半干净的答案，但就像是，“好吧，这位经理可以直接批准它，最多可达一定的美元金额。
If not, it goes to this next level up of manager.
如果没有，则转至下一级经理。
And if we're going to spend more than 50K on it, we actually have to compare three different alternatives."
如果我们要花费超过 5 万美元，我们实际上必须比较三种不同的替代方案。”
Todd Jackson: But whatever, there's some known process.
托德·杰克逊：但无论如何，有一些已知的过程。
That's what I'm looking for rather than just a bunch of ambiguity.
这就是我正在寻找的，而不仅仅是一堆含糊不清的东西。
So that's ability to pay.
所以这就是支付能力。
And then I'm going into willingness to pay.
然后我将讨论支付意愿。
I don't want to try to quantify that.
我不想尝试量化这一点。
That's where I go, "What's your budget for solving this?
这就是我要问的问题：“解决这个问题的预算是多少？
What are you paying for this other tool?
您为这个其他工具支付了什么费用？
Let me show you mine.
让我给你看看我的。
You think that you'd pay less for that or you'd pay more for that?
您认为您会为此付出更少的费用还是会为此付出更多的费用？
Can you replace this other thing with the thing I have?" And then I love this question.
你能用我拥有的东西替换这个其他东西吗？”然后我喜欢这个问题。
I think you've had Madhavan Ramanujam on the show, right?
我想马达万·拉马努贾姆 (Madhavan Ramanujam) 也曾出现在你的节目中，对吗？
Todd Jackson: He has this question, he's from Simon-Kucher.
托德·杰克逊：他有这个问题，他来自西蒙顾和。
I love his thing of like, "Lenny, what is a fair price you would pay for this thing that I just described to you?" And then you say your thing.
我喜欢他这样的说法：“莱尼，你愿意为我刚才向你描述的这件东西支付多少合理的价格？”然后你就说你的事。
And then I go, "Okay.
然后我说：“好吧。
Well, what would be an expensive price?" And then I say, "Okay, what would be a prohibitively expensive price?" And you ask those three questions.
那么，昂贵的价格是多少？”然后我说，“好吧，昂贵的价格是多少？”然后你问这三个问题。
And generally, when people tell you the fair price, it's a little bit of like they're trying to get a deal.
一般来说，当人们告诉你合理的价格时，有点像他们试图达成协议。
And if the product's good, the expensive price is the one that they would actually pay.
如果产品好的话，他们实际上会支付昂贵的价格。
Todd Jackson: Where they're saying it feels expensive, but you put it in front of them, and you say, "It costs this much," and if it's really good, they want it.
托德·杰克逊：他们说感觉很贵，但你把它放在他们面前，你说，“花了这么多钱”，如果它真的很好，他们就会想要它。
And the prohibitively expensive one is the one that's too expensive and they'd have to just, "I just can't do that." So I love these style of questions.
而价格过高的产品就是太贵了，他们不得不说，“我就是做不到”。所以我喜欢这些风格的问题。
I think they're just a lot more specific than what I see most founders doing, which is just chatting with customers.
我认为他们只是比我看到的大多数创始人所做的更具体，即与客户聊天。
You really want to try to put them to some questions where you know they're going to answer honestly because you're asking them questions.
你确实想尝试向他们提出一些你知道他们会诚实回答的问题，因为你在问他们问题。
You're not asking them to speculate and you're asking them fairly concrete stuff.
你不是要求他们猜测，而是问他们相当具体的东西。
Todd Jackson: Oh, and the thing I should say is it's a two-hour session, like I mentioned.
托德·杰克逊：哦，我应该说的是，正如我提到的，这是一个两个小时的会议。
It's one thing to explain this stuff, but it's another thing to see it.
解释这些东西是一回事，但看到它又是另一回事。
And so we show tons of Zoom recordings from founders who have gone through the program, and we actually do this thing where all the founders who are going through the program, they recorded all their videos, their customer discovery videos, and then our team watches all of the videos and creates highlight reels.
因此，我们展示了参加过该计划的创始人的大量 Zoom 录音，我们实际上是在做这件事，所有参加该计划的创始人都录制了所有视频、客户发现视频，然后我们的团队观看所有视频并创建精彩片段。
Todd Jackson: And we sit around in a room and watch them together and we say like, "Oh, look at these questions that Lenny asked.
托德·杰克逊：我们坐在一个房间里，一起看着他们，我们说，“哦，看看莱尼问的这些问题。
And did you see how the customer responded?
您看到客户的反应了吗？
Wow, that's an eyes-light-up moment." Or, "Todd asked these questions, he's leading the witness a little bit and the customer didn't seem that interested." So the thing that's interesting is as a founder, you never see anybody else's version of this.
哇，那真是一个眼睛一亮的时刻。”或者，“托德问了这些问题，他稍微引导了证人，而客户似乎并不那么感兴趣。”所以有趣的是，作为创始人，你永远不会看到其他人的版本。
You only have your own experience.
你只有你自己的经历。
And so just seeing how other founders do this in a real live setting is super.
因此，看看其他创始人如何在真实的现场环境中做到这一点真是太棒了。
People love it.
人们喜欢它。
Lenny Rachitsky: And it's always easy to hear these things.
Lenny Rachitsky：这些事情总是很容易听到。
It's much harder to be the person asking these questions to a potential customer you're trying to sell.
向你想要销售的潜在客户提出这些问题的人要困难得多。
And it's just asking, "How much would you pay for this?" So I love that you kind of force people through the actual practice of it.
它只是问，“你愿意为此付多少钱？”所以我喜欢你强迫人们进行实际的实践。
Todd, you're going to get a lot of applicants for this program.
托德，这个项目将会有很多申请者。
This sounds amazing.
这听起来很神奇。
I know you're giving a peek at the stuff that we haven't really talked about.
我知道您正在浏览我们尚未真正讨论过的内容。
On this point you just shared, which is essentially trying to get real skin in the game insight into how big of a problem this is, I love that you just basically shared a bunch of questions.
在这一点上，你刚刚分享了这一点，这本质上是试图在游戏中真正了解这个问题有多大，我喜欢你基本上分享了一堆问题。
Lenny Rachitsky: Someone could just rewind right now and just write down all these questions that you shared and use them when you're talking to customers.
Lenny Rachitsky：现在有人可以倒带，写下您分享的所有这些问题，并在与客户交谈时使用它们。
Obviously, the classic problem is they tell you they're going to buy it but they don't.
显然，典型的问题是他们告诉你他们会买，但他们没有。
And all the stuff you shared is, "Here's ways to get at: will they actually buy it before they have the actual product?" Is there anything else you want to say on that?
你分享的所有内容都是，“这里有一些方法：他们会在拥有实际产品之前真正购买它吗？”对此您还有什么想说的吗？
Just tips for not being tricked and people just saying, "Oh, yeah, I love this thing"?
只是为了不被欺骗而人们只是说“哦，是的，我喜欢这个东西”？
I know you talked through a lot of this, but anything else?
我知道你谈了很多这个问题，但是还有其他的吗？
Todd Jackson: Yeah, I think there's a couple of things.
托德·杰克逊：是的，我认为有几件事。
One is you have to know what to show people when you're actually showing them something.
一是当你真正向人们展示一些东西时，你必须知道向他们展示什么。
Lattice is the kind of product I mentioned that could be sold with Figma mock-ups.
Lattice 是我提到的那种可以与 Figma 模型一起出售的产品。
Looker couldn't be sold that way.
Looker 不能以这种方式出售。
Looker, you actually had to do a demo with their real data.
听着，你实际上必须用他们的真实数据进行演示。
So it required a lot more work to do that.
因此，需要做更多的工作才能做到这一点。
Vanta was neither like a demo or a mock-up, it was actually doing the work.
Vanta 既不像演示版也不像模型，它实际上是在做工作。
And Pilot was like that.
派洛特就是这样的。
There's a bunch of companies like that.
类似这样的公司还有很多。
So you have to figure out what is my product and how does it solve the problem?
所以你必须弄清楚我的产品是什么以及它如何解决问题？
And therefore, what fidelity does my early product or early demo have to be at in order to land the sale?
因此，我的早期产品或早期演示必须达到什么保真度才能获得销售？
Todd Jackson: And then I think you have to know when you've talked to enough people.
托德·杰克逊：然后我认为你必须知道什么时候你已经与足够多的人交谈过。
It takes time to talk to people.
与人交谈需要时间。
And the rule of thumb is if you talk to enough people and you can predict 70 to 80% of what the next person is going to say to you, because you've just talked to so many people and you've heard the pattern so clearly, that's when you've talked to enough people.
经验法则是，如果你和足够多的人交谈，你就可以预测下一个人会对你说的话的 70% 到 80%，因为你刚刚和很多人交谈过，而且你已经清楚地听到了模式，那就是当你和足够多的人交谈过的时候。
But these are all things you got to learn.
但这些都是你必须学习的东西。
And that's why doing it experientially in the way that we do the program we think was best.
这就是为什么我们要以我们认为最好的方式进行体验。
Lenny Rachitsky: Is there anything that we haven't covered that you wanted to touch on before we let you go?
Lenny Rachitsky：在我们让你离开之前，还有什么我们没有提到但你想谈一谈的吗？
Todd Jackson: No. If you're listening, if you're a B2B founder in those early days of starting your company, or you know anyone who fits that description, and you have an appreciation for just how hard it is to find product-market fit and you don't want to go it alone, then please apply to this program or share the application.
托德·杰克逊：不。如果您在听，如果您是公司成立初期的 B2B 创始人，或者您认识任何符合该描述的人，并且您了解找到适合市场的产品有多么困难，并且您不想单独行动，那么请申请此计划或分享该申请。
Like we promise, we will review every single application.
正如我们所承诺的，我们将审核每一份申请。
And I'm just really looking forward to working with a group of 20 or so amazing founders, and helping them navigate these early days of product-market fit finding.
我真的很期待与大约 20 位出色的创始人合作，帮助他们找到产品与市场契合的早期阶段。
It's what I love to do.
这是我喜欢做的事情。
Lenny Rachitsky: So just to make sure the right people apply, remind people who is a great fit.
Lenny Rachitsky：因此，为了确保合适的人申请，请提醒人们谁是最合适的。
So it's B2B founders, and you said they've been at it for six to nine months, something like that?
那么是 B2B 创始人，你说他们已经从事了六到九个月之类的事情？
Todd Jackson: Yeah, something in that zone or earlier.
托德·杰克逊：是的，在那个区域或更早的地方。
You have an idea of what your product is.
您知道您的产品是什么。
You have a hypothesis about what it is and who it's for, but you probably haven't started writing any code yet.
您对它是什么以及它的用途有一个假设，但您可能还没有开始编写任何代码。
Lenny Rachitsky: And if they've been at it for four years and haven't found success, this is not a fit.
Lenny Rachitsky：如果他们已经这样做了四年但还没有取得成功，那么这就不适合。
Todd Jackson: I could try to help them one-on-one, but no, that's not a fit for this program.
托德·杰克逊：我可以尝试一对一地帮助他们，但是不，这不适合这个项目。
Lenny Rachitsky: And then how do they apply and when are their applications due?
Lenny Rachitsky：那么他们如何申请以及申请截止日期是什么时候？
Todd Jackson: Yeah.
托德·杰克逊：是的。
So you go to pmf.firstround.com.
所以您访问 pmf.firstround.com。
Applications are open.
申请已开放。
They're going to go till May 7th, and then the program starts on May 29th.
他们将持续到 5 月 7 日，然后节目于 5 月 29 日开始。
And if you want to reach out to me specifically, you can find me on Twitter.
如果您想具体联系我，可以在 Twitter 上找到我。
I'm @tjack, T-J-A-C-K.
我是@tjack，T-J-A-C-K。
You can follow me, DM me.
你可以关注我，DM我。
And yeah, I'm looking forward to working with some amazing founders that I know are listening right now.
是的，我期待与一些出色的创始人合作，我知道他们现在正在倾听。
Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
I'm so happy we did this.
我很高兴我们做到了这一点。
I feel like this conversation is going to help a ton of founders, and they're going to come back to it again and again.
我觉得这次谈话会对很多创始人有所帮助，他们会一次又一次地回到这个话题。
Todd, thank you so much for being here.
托德，非常感谢你来到这里。
Lenny Rachitsky: It's been my pleasure.
Lenny Rachitsky：这是我的荣幸。
Bye everyone.
再见大家。
Thank you so much for listening.
非常感谢您的聆听。
If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.
如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。
Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.
另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。
You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.
您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。
See you in the next episode.
下一集见。