"Tobi Lütke's leadership playbook: First principles, infinite games, and maximizing human potential"
Tobi Lütke: Your podcast is a podcast by a builder for other builders.
Tobi Lütke：您的播客是一个构建者为其他构建者制作的播客。
Here's the most interesting question I think people can ask builders, what is your energy source?
我认为人们可以问建筑商最有趣的问题，你的能源是什么？
My energy source is dissatisfaction with status quo.
我的能量来源是对现状的不满。
There are so many books are about this ...
有很多书都是关于这个的...
Technology leading to dystopia.
技术导致反乌托邦。
Like no one who really thinks about this would want to be born into a world 20 years before today.
就像没有一个真正思考过这一问题的人会愿意出生在 20 年前的今天一样。
I think today is the dystopia of the future.
我认为今天是未来的反乌托邦。
It behooves us to try to build the kinds of products that leads in ...
我们有必要尝试打造领先的产品种类......
Towards progress.
走向进步。
Lenny Rachitsky: There's a couple quotes along these lines I've seen that describe the way you think about this stuff.
Lenny Rachitsky：我看到有几句话描述了您对这个问题的看法。
"If most people are doing it a certain way I by default don't want to do it that way."
“如果大多数人都以某种方式做事，我默认不想这样做。”
Tobi Lütke: There's an aesthetic in the world that exists which is that business people dress in suit and tie, they are speaking much more sophisticated than I do, usually without an accent.
Tobi Lütke：世界上存在一种审美，那就是商务人士穿着西装打领带，他们说话比我复杂得多，通常没有口音。
They usually have a stick and show dramatically at the chart that is behind them.
他们通常有一根棍子，并在他们后面的图表上戏剧性地显示。
How much is that aesthetic overlapped with outperformance?
这种审美与出色的表现有多少重叠？
Pessimism sounds extremely sophisticated.
悲观主义听起来极其复杂。
Optimism always sounds dumb or at least naive.
乐观听起来总是愚蠢的，或者至少是天真的。
The most powerful unquantifiable things in the word of business are fun and delight.
商业界最强大的、无法量化的东西就是乐趣和愉悦。
Lenny Rachitsky: I don't know of any other company that operates where the founder has this 100-year vision of where the product needs to go and working backwards from that.
Lenny Rachitsky：据我所知，没有哪家公司的创始人能够对产品的发展方向抱有 100 年的愿景，并以此为基础进行逆向发展。
Tobi Lütke: I talk about look in the future and then think backwards a lot, right?
Tobi Lütke：我谈到展望未来，然后经常回顾过去，对吧？
It's like what would we want to have done 20 years ago on this?
就像 20 年前我们想在这方面做什么？
We have very long-term plans.
我们有非常长期的计划。
At 100 years you can't talk about this software project but you can talk about the mission itself, whatever things that will survive for 80 years that are left on this particular timeframe.
100 年后，你不能谈论这个软件项目，但你可以谈论任务本身，无论在这个特定的时间框架内剩下的 80 年的东西是什么。
Entrepreneurship is just precious.
创业精神是弥足珍贵的。
Shopify exists, basically, to make entrepreneurship more common.
Shopify 的存在基本上是为了让创业变得更加普遍。
Lenny Rachitsky: Is there anything you want to leave listeners with?
Lenny Rachitsky：您有什么想留给听众的吗？
Tobi Lütke: I really, really, really think that there is not a single person on this planet who is even close to being at their maximum potential.
Tobi Lütke：我真的、真的、真的认为这个星球上没有一个人能够接近发挥最大潜力。
Reminding people of their own potential constantly is actually a wonderful thing to do.
不断提醒人们自己的潜力实际上是一件很棒的事情。
Lenny Rachitsky: Today my guest is Tobi Lütke.
Lenny Rachitsky：今天我的客人是 Tobi Lütke。
Toby is a man who needs no introduction so I'm going to keep this very short and get you right to this jam-packed conversation.
托比是一个不需要介绍的人，所以我将保持简短，让您直接进入这个拥挤的谈话。
If you enjoy this podcast don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube, it's the best way to avoid missing future episodes and it helps the podcast tremendously.
如果您喜欢这个播客，请不要忘记订阅并在您最喜欢的播客应用程序或 YouTube 中关注它，这是避免错过未来剧集的最佳方式，并且对播客有很大帮助。
With that I bring you Tobi Lütke.
接下来我为您带来 Tobi Lütke。
This episode is brought to you by Sinch, the customer communications cloud.
本集由客户通信云 Sinch 为您带来。
Here's the thing about digital customer communications.
这是关于数字客户沟通的事情。
Whether you're sending marketing campaigns, verification codes, or account alerts you need them to reach users reliably, that's where Sinch comes in.
无论您是发送营销活动、验证码还是账户提醒，您都需要它们可靠地联系用户，这就是 Sinch 的用武之地。
Over 150,000 businesses including eight of the top 10 largest tech companies globally use Sinch's API to build messaging, email, and calling into their products.
超过 150,000 家企业（包括全球十大科技公司中的八家）使用 Sinch 的 API 在其产品中构建消息、电子邮件和通话功能。
Lenny Rachitsky: And there's something big happening in messaging that product teams need to know about, Rich Communication Services or RCS.
Lenny Rachitsky：产品团队需要了解消息传递领域正在发生的重大变化，即丰富的通信服务或 RCS。
Think of RCS as SMS 2.0.
将 RCS 视为 SMS 2.0。
Instead of getting texts from a random number your users will see your verified company name and logo without needing to download anything new.
您的用户将看到您经过验证的公司名称和徽标，而不是从随机数字中获取文本，而无需下载任何新内容。
It's a more secure and branded experience.
这是一种更安全、更品牌化的体验。
Plus, you get features like interactive carousels and suggested replies.
此外，您还可以获得交互式轮播和建议回复等功能。
And here's why this matters.
这就是为什么这很重要。
US carriers are starting to adopt RCS.
美国运营商开始采用 RCS。
Sinch is already helping major brands send RCS messages around the world.
Sinch 已经在帮助各大品牌在世界各地发送 RCS 信息。
And they're helping Lenny's Podcast listeners get registered first before the rush hits the US market.
他们正在帮助莱尼的播客听众在热潮席卷美国市场之前首先注册。
Learn more at getstarted@sinch.com/Lenny.
了解更多信息，请访问 getstarted@sinch.com/Lenny。
That's S-I-N-C-H.com/Lenny.
那是 S-I-N-C-H.com/Lenny。
Today's episode is brought to you by Liveblocks, the platform that turns your product into a place that users want to be.
今天的节目是由 Liveblocks 为您带来的，该平台可以将您的产品变成用户想要的地方。
With ready-made collaborative features you can supercharge your product with experiences that only top=tier companies have been able to perfect until now.
借助现成的协作功能，您可以通过迄今为止只有顶级公司才能完善的体验来增强您的产品。
Think AI copilots like Notion, multiplayer like Figma, comments and notifications like Linear, and even collaborative editing like Google Docs.
想想像 Notion 这样的 AI 副驾驶，像 Figma 这样的多人游戏，像 Linear 这样的评论和通知，甚至像 Google Docs 这样的协作编辑。
And all of that with minimal configuration or maintenance required.
所有这些都需要最少的配置或维护。
Companies from all kinds of industries and stages count on Liveblocks to drive engagement and growth in their products.
来自各个行业和阶段的公司都依靠 Liveblocks 来推动其产品的参与度和增长。
Join them today and give your users an experience that turns them into daily active users.
立即加入他们，为您的用户提供将他们转变为日常活跃用户的体验。
Sign up for a free account today at Liveblocks.io/Lenny.
立即在 Liveblocks.io/Lenny 注册免费帐户。
Tobi, thank you so much for being here.
托比，非常感谢你来到这里。
Welcome to the podcast.
欢迎来到播客。
Tobi Lütke: I'm glad to be here.
Tobi Lütke：我很高兴来到这里。
I'm excited for our conversation.
我对我们的谈话感到很兴奋。
Lenny Rachitsky: I've listened to so many of your other interviews, I've talked to a bunch of people that work for you.
Lenny Rachitsky：我听过你的很多其他采访，我也和很多为你工作的人交谈过。
I want to try to do something a little different.
我想尝试做一些不同的事情。
There's basically two themes that emerged over and over and over as I've listened to you share advice, and interview, and in talking to people that work for you.
当我听你分享建议、采访以及与为你工作的人交谈时，基本上有两个主题一遍又一遍地出现。
One is thinking from first principles, the other is maximizing human potential.
一个是从第一原则出发思考，另一个是最大限度地发挥人类潜力。
I'm just going to plant these seeds for now.
我现在只想种下这些种子。
I'm going to not ask about these directly, I'm going to come at these from the side with the many questions that I have for you.
我不会直接问这些，我会从侧面向你们提出许多问题。
Something that I've heard people describe at Shopify called the Tobi tornado.
我在 Shopify 听人们描述过一种叫做托比龙卷风的东西。
Tobi Lütke: Oh, wow.
Tobi Lütke：哦，哇。
Okay, that's a start.
好吧，这是一个开始。
I like it.
我喜欢它。
Tobi Lütke: A Tobi tornado, I would say, is a whole lot of change management or a conversation or conflict or real talk compressed into a very short timeframe.
Tobi Lütke：我想说，托比龙卷风是压缩在非常短的时间内的大量变革管理或对话、冲突或真实谈话。
I see something it doesn't ...
我看到了一些它没有看到的东西...
It's not good, I have a conversation.
不好了，我有话要说。
I have learned something very quickly about hey, I need to update my priors, or cool, let's do it differently.
我很快就学到了一些关于嘿，我需要更新我的先验知识，或者酷，让我们以不同的方式做。
At which point a project might be stopped and we get back together in a room and then we start a new version of a product.
此时项目可能会停止，我们回到一个房间，然后开始产品的新版本。
And everyone who's currently on the team, of that particular project, is no longer on the project but they are the founders of the next version which is built differently.
目前该特定项目团队中的每个人都不再参与该项目，但他们是下一个版本的创始人，该版本的构建方式有所不同。
And that might be a bit whiplashy for people.
这对人们来说可能有点夸张。
I mean, I certainly hope that's true, it's certainly what people tell me.
我的意思是，我当然希望这是真的，这肯定是人们告诉我的。
It's also what they appreciate about the company.
这也是他们对公司的欣赏。
It's like what is best ends up mattering a lot.
就好像最好的事情最终变得非常重要一样。
Lenny Rachitsky: Basically, it's you going into a chat room being like "Hey, this" ...
Lenny Rachitsky：基本上，你进入聊天室时会说“嘿，这个”......
"We're going to end this project we're" ...
“我们将结束这个项目”......
"Let's try something else" because you've discovered or realized this is a bad idea.
“让我们尝试点别的”因为你发现或意识到这是一个坏主意。
Some people complain about this practice of like "Oh, Tobi kills the we've been working on." My lens is, you realize we're just wasting time on this thing that is not going to work and we shouldn't do it.
有些人抱怨这种做法，比如“哦，托比杀死了我们一直在努力的东西。”我的观点是，你意识到我们只是在这件事上浪费时间，这是行不通的，我们不应该这样做。
Is there anything there along those lines?
有没有类似的东西？
Tobi Lütke: No. This is everything.
Tobi Lütke：不。这就是一切。
Again, once I imagine something might be not the right thing to work on I'm either incorrect at which point this is super important that I understand why or I'm correct at which point it's super unfair for letting people work on something that isn't going to make it.
再说一次，一旦我想象某件事可能不适合做，我要么是错误的，这对我理解原因非常重要，要么我是正确的，让人们做一些不会成功的事情是非常不公平的。
There's a third wave which is I could also ignore it but that's an abjection of my CEO and founder responsibility that I'm absolutely not willing to make so that's just not a path forward that I see valid.
还有第三波浪潮，我也可以忽略它，但这是对我的首席执行官和创始人责任的贬低，我绝对不愿意这样做，所以这不是我认为有效的前进道路。
I understand that's what a lot of people choose to do.
我明白这是很多人选择做的事情。
So yeah, compressing time is important.
所以是的，压缩时间很重要。
We have a fairly limited time in our careers, right?
我们的职业生涯时间相当有限，对吗？
Our careers are not that long.
我们的职业生涯并没有那么长。
If you're lucky you have 40 years in the industry.
如果你幸运的话，你已经在这个行业工作了 40 年。
Most people spent more time in school and then maybe leave later if they're so lucky that they can.
大多数人在学校度过了更多的时间，如果他们足够幸运的话，可能会稍后离开。
So it's not even that.
所以甚至不是那样。
Tobi Lütke: I think you want to do the maximum amount of things you can be proud of at the end of your career.
Tobi Lütke：我认为你希望在职业生涯结束时做尽可能多的让你感到自豪的事情。
When you look back you want to be saying, "Hey, holy shit, we shipped this thing which was absolutely an incredible contribution to a mission I cared about at a company that was full of other people who cared as much as I did." And also are very proud of working.
当你回首往事时，你想说：“嘿，天啊，我们交付了这个东西，这绝对是对我所关心的使命的令人难以置信的贡献，公司里到处都是像我一样关心的人。”并且对工作也感到非常自豪。
And maybe even thinking of working with me and being really, really glad that we spent time on projects together.
也许甚至想到和我一起工作，并且真的非常高兴我们一起花时间在项目上。
Yeah, none of this happens if everyone's sort of optimizing a thing that probably shouldn't be there, right?
是的，如果每个人都在优化一些可能不应该存在的东西，那么这一切都不会发生，对吧？
And, therefore, I think it's the better thing to do.
因此，我认为这是更好的做法。
Lenny Rachitsky: And, by the way, I love this way of describing ...
Lenny Rachitsky：顺便说一句，我喜欢这种描述方式......
Of compressing it in time to just make a decision, not focus on making it come across the most kind, nicest, sweetest way.
及时压缩它只是为了做出决定，而不是专注于以最友善、最好、最甜蜜的方式来表达它。
When you give feedback to people when something is not the way that you think it could be or as good as you could be it's often very direct and often hard to hear.
当你向人们提供反馈时，如果某件事没有达到你想象的那样或没有你想象的那么好，反馈通常非常直接，而且往往很难听清。
To me this comes across as you're trying to maximize their potential, you're trying to push them to do something better.
对我来说，这是因为你试图最大限度地发挥他们的潜力，你试图推动他们做得更好。
Is there anything there that you think is a way of approaching feedback?
您认为有什么方法可以获取反馈吗？
Tobi Lütke: I really, really, really think that there is not a single person on this planet who is even close to being at their maximum potential.
Tobi Lütke：我真的、真的、真的认为这个星球上没有一个人能够接近发挥最大潜力。
I just think everyone is way, way, way, way, way better than they think.
我只是认为每个人都比他们想象的要好得多。
And the reason why we're not performing at this level is a series of ideas, maybe certain approaches for cultivating our skills and our crafts that have not yet been discovered and, therefore, we could not take advantage of them.
我们之所以没有达到这个水平，是因为一系列的想法，也许是某些培养我们的技能和工艺的方法尚未被发现，因此我们无法利用它们。
It's an environment that just narrows the focus on fairly unambitious things at which point you get stuck competing with literally everyone else in the world because everyone's unambitious.
这种环境只会将注意力集中在相当没有野心的事情上，此时你就会陷入与世界上几乎所有其他人竞争的境地，因为每个人都没有野心。
Tobi Lütke: I have found that reminding people of their own potential constantly is actually a wonderful thing to do.
Tobi Lütke：我发现不断提醒人们自己的潜力实际上是一件很棒的事情。
And I have a history of being right about people's potential more than they are themselves.
我一直以来对人们的潜力的认识比对他们本身的认识更正确。
Now, in a way, this dooms me fairly often to be disappointed, right, in myself.
现在，在某种程度上，这注定了我常常对自己感到失望，对吧。
By the way, I'm talking about myself here too.
顺便说一下，我在这里也说的是我自己。
I think I have way more potential than what I bring to bear and I hate that so I'm trying to cultivate the skills that I need for tomorrow and constantly challenge myself.
我认为我的潜力比我所能发挥的要大得多，但我讨厌这一点，所以我正在努力培养明天所需的技能，并不断挑战自己。
I'm harder on myself than on anyone else.
我对自己比对任何人都严格。
By some discount rate act equally to the people around me, especially the ones who just so, obviously, are brilliant.
以一定的折扣率，对我周围的人一视同仁，尤其是那些显然很聪明的人。
Tobi Lütke: Spending time and longer time in careers with people and then holding them to a high standard means that they accomplish very often things that just they didn't imagine they could.
Tobi Lütke：在职业生涯中花费越来越多的时间与人们打交道，然后以高标准要求他们，意味着他们经常能完成他们从未想象过的事情。
To me this is the most wonderful thing to see.
对我来说，这是最美妙的事情。
And frankly this is a throughline for all of my career because this ...
坦率地说，这是我整个职业生涯的一条主线，因为……
My product is that.
我的产品就是这样。
I want my product to cause people to be more successful than they thought they could.
我希望我的产品能让人们比他们想象的更成功。
And, in fact, become more ambitious about what they are building with their online stores and their businesses than they are actually initially set out to do.
事实上，他们对在线商店和业务的建设比最初的计划更加雄心勃勃。
Tobi Lütke: Because something like this happened to me, right?
Tobi Lütke：因为这样的事情发生在我身上，对吗？
I started a snowboard store at some point.
我在某个时候开了一家滑雪板商店。
I didn't set out to build Shopify.
我并没有打算建立 Shopify。
If you are committed to following your curiosity as to the next step, and optimize for maximum amount of learning when you choose these steps, it takes you from one place to another and you actually realize the world's full of lies about human potential and progress.
如果你致力于追随你对下一步的好奇心，并在选择这些步骤时优化最大量的学习，它会带你从一个地方到另一个地方，你实际上会意识到这个世界充满了关于人类潜力和进步的谎言。
Maybe people are not malicious about it but they're definitely confused about it.
也许人们对此并无恶意，但他们肯定对此感到困惑。
School teaches you that you have to learn this particular piece of math in this 12 month period, and it doesn't matter how much you understand it.
学校告诉你，你必须在这 12 个月的时间里学习这门特殊的数学知识，无论你理解多少。
It's like the outcome can be variable and will grade you on a variable outcome for a fixed amount of time which has nothing to do with anything I've ever seen or learned or see ...
这就像结果可以是可变的，并且会在固定的时间内根据可变的结果对你进行评分，这与我所见过的、学到的或看到的任何东西都没有关系......
Or witnessed about how to actually learn things.
或者见证如何真正学习东西。
You follow that thread and you just find that there is no speed limit for personal growth.
你沿着这条线索走下去，你就会发现个人成长没有速度限制。
In a way Shopify has been a wonderful experimental lab for this sort of conviction.
在某种程度上，Shopify 是实现这种信念的绝佳实验实验室。
I've just seen this to come to be true.
我刚刚看到这成为现实。
And, of course, hearing from someone that you respect that "Hey, I think you had it in you to do this thing significantly better because I think you probably saw fairly early in the project this sort of path A path B.
当然，听到你尊敬的人说“嘿，我认为你有能力把这件事做得更好，因为我认为你可能在项目的早期就看到了这种路径 A 路径 B。
You chose path B potentially out of convenience even though you knew that wasn't the right thing.
尽管您知道这不是正确的选择，但您可能出于方便而选择了路径 B。
And I actually expected better of you and I expected" ...
事实上，我对你的期望更好，我也期望”......
"I think the next time this happens in your career you should go path A because" ...
“我认为下次在你的职业生涯中发生这种情况时，你应该走 A 路，因为”......
"Based on your conviction." And, therefore, that's hard to hear, right, because it's right.
“基于你的信念。”因此，这很难听，对吧，因为这是对的。
But it's also extremely valuable, right?
但它也非常有价值，对吧？
What I love is an environment of people who are holding each other accountable to the actual potential rather than sort of their current level plus or ...
我喜欢的是这样一个环境，人们互相对实际潜力负责，而不是对他们当前的水平加上或......
Plus some, I don't know, a little bit extra.
还有一些，我不知道，还有一点点额外的。
Lenny Rachitsky: There's so many threads I want to follow here.
Lenny Rachitsky：这里有很多我想关注的话题。
The example of the school is such a pertinent one.
学校的例子就是一个很贴切的例子。
To me right now we're looking at preschools for our son and I'm ...
对我来说，现在我们正在为我们的儿子寻找幼儿园，我......
They're describing their education philosophy I'm like, I don't know why I should believe this is the right approach.
他们正在描述他们的教育理念，我想，我不知道为什么我应该相信这是正确的方法。
And it makes me just want to spend all this time researching what education approach works.
这让我只想花所有时间研究什么教育方法有效。
I know it's just preschool and maybe not as critical yet.
我知道这只是学前班，也许还没有那么重要。
Tobi Lütke: Did you have a bet yet?
Tobi Lütke：你打赌了吗？
I have three kids too and this is sort of a decision that every parent faces, right?
我也有三个孩子，这是每个父母都会面临的决定，对吧？
So many of your listeners are probably product managers of machine learning products that maybe this resonates.
很多听众可能都是机器学习产品的产品经理，这可能会引起共鸣。
So there's a funny thing about machine learning which you're just like ...
所以关于机器学习有一个有趣的事情，你就像......
You train on a lot of data, and, hopefully, you get something that predicts the thing you want it to predict correctly out of it.
您对大量数据进行训练，并且希望您能得到一些可以预测您希望它正确预测的内容的东西。
The biggest problem of this is overfitting, right?
最大的问题是过度拟合，对吗？
What does good look like, a loss function?
好的损失函数是什么样的？
Which is a heuristic because it's not the actual task that the thing will do in the future it's something that proxies to the task that you want the thing to do in the future.
这是一种启发式方法，因为它不是该事物将来要执行的实际任务，而是代理您希望该事物将来执行的任务。
Predict fraud, predict the next word, whatever.
预测欺诈，预测下一个词，等等。
So overfitting is basically model learning how to cheat on the benchmark or on the fitness function.
所以过度拟合基本上是模型学习如何欺骗基准或适应度函数。
Tobi Lütke: So there's a business analogy of this which is that ...
Tobi Lütke：所以有一个商业类比，那就是......
It's called Goodhart's law.
这就是所谓的古德哈特定律。
It's literally the same thing as overfitting just for businesses.
这实际上与企业的过度拟合是一样的。
Goodhart's law just says, "Any metric that becomes a goal ceases to be a good metric." Same exact thing.
古德哈特定律只是说：“任何成为目标的指标都不再是一个好的指标。”同样的事情。
The universal truths are things that almost any competitive field will invent for itself by different terminology often.
几乎所有竞争领域都会经常用不同的术语为自己发明普遍真理。
And I think this is also, by the way, why it's so interesting to focus on personal growth and learning a lot about a lot because you end up finding these sort of hidden harmonies behind things, the things that are clearly enduring correct insights.
顺便说一句，我认为这也是为什么关注个人成长和学习很多东西如此有趣，因为你最终会发现事物背后隐藏的和谐，这些事物显然具有正确的洞察力。
So overfitting, Goodhart's law are the same thing.
所以过度拟合，古德哈特定律都是一样的。
School optimizes for what?
学校优化什么？
Marks supposedly, right?
据说有标记，对吗？
In fact, overfitting in school is literally the kids cheating to get marks, right?
事实上，学校里的过度拟合实际上就是孩子们为了获得分数而作弊，对吗？
You get another analogy.
你会得到另一个类比。
What is however the right loss function for children?
然而，对于儿童来说，正确的损失函数是什么？
Have you made a decision yet?
你已经做出决定了吗？
Lenny Rachitsky: No, I have not we just started down this path.
Lenny Rachitsky：不，我没有，我们刚刚开始走这条路。
You told me-
你告诉我-
Tobi Lütke: It's the kind of thing .
Tobi Lütke：就是这样的事情。
You have to actually go fairly deep in philosophy to figure this out.
你必须真正深入哲学才能弄清楚这一点。
And then again afterwards you can build, you can find the schools that you like.
然后你又可以建造，你可以找到你喜欢的学校。
For us it was just maintaining curiosity.
对我们来说，这只是保持好奇心。
This is a completely different goal from being good at marks.
这是一个与擅长分数完全不同的目标。
But I just think everyone's born extremely curious and school has a habit of getting it out of kids.
但我认为每个人都生来就非常好奇，而学校有让孩子们好奇的习惯。
Literally, there's a foundation model of a child, and you fine-tune it at school, and it just loses the neurons of curiosity because it's actually discouraged to meander into other topics and explore them just because they're interesting.
从字面上看，有一个孩子的基础模型，你在学校对其进行微调，它只是失去了好奇心的神经元，因为实际上不鼓励仅仅因为它们有趣而蜿蜒进入其他主题并探索它们。
I don't know.
我不知道。
This is sort of not the beat of a podcast but I just think about this a lot.
这有点不是播客的节奏，但我只是经常思考这个问题。
It's funny how these things just recur constantly.
有趣的是，这些事情不断地重复发生。
Lenny Rachitsky: So when Archie was on the podcast, he's the head of growth at Shopify ...
Lenny Rachitsky：所以当 Archie 在播客上时，他是 Shopify 的增长主管......
I don't know if that's his official role.
我不知道这是否是他的官方角色。
Basically drives a lot of the growth.
基本上推动了很大的增长。
He talked about how the core product team, outside of the growth team, operates without KPIs, without specific goals.
他谈到了增长团队之外的核心产品团队如何在没有 KPI、没有具体目标的情况下运作。
And decisions are driven by taste and intuition primarily you, and Glen, and some other leaders.
决策主要是由你、格伦和其他一些领导者的品味和直觉驱动的。
And a lot of people heard that and they're like "I" ...
很多人听到了这句话，他们就像“我”一样......
"First, I don't believe that.
“首先，我不相信这一点。
Second of all, how does one operate that way when there's no data to tell us exactly what is right and good?" So the question I have is just how does one operate in that way successfully?
其次，当没有数据准确告诉我们什么是正确的、什么是好的时，人们如何以这种方式运作？”所以我的问题是如何才能成功地以这种方式运作？
What does it take for a company to work that way because a lot of people will try it and fail?
因为很多人会尝试但都失败了，所以一家公司要以这种方式运作需要什么？
Tobi Lütke: This is very close to what I just talked about before with .
Tobi Lütke：这与我之前谈到的非常接近。
Goodhart's law is real.
古德哈特定律是真实的。
The moment a metric becomes a goal it's no longer a useful metric, right?
一旦指标成为目标，它就不再是有用的指标，对吗？
I think that's more or less a precise wording.
我认为这或多或少是一个精确的措辞。
Why?
为什么？
Because no metric by itself is a complete heuristic for a complex business because business are complex.
因为对于复杂的业务来说，没有任何指标本身是完整的启发式，因为业务很复杂。
There's a million of different tensions in a company and you can't all keep them in harmony by optimizing for one fix.
公司中存在数百万种不同的紧张局势，您无法通过优化一个解决方案来使所有这些紧张局势保持和谐。
It's true that we don't have KPIs and we don't have at least OKRs in the Silicon Valley sense but we are extremely data-informed.
确实，我们没有 KPI，至少也没有硅谷意义上的 OKR，但我们非常了解数据。
We have invested enormous amounts of money and time into systems that give us basically everything at our fingertips.
我们在系统上投入了大量的金钱和时间，这些系统基本上让我们一切都触手可及。
I sent this demo to other founders and they're completely bowled over by the way we can dig into basically every constituent atomic bit part that makes up the cohort that just got formed 15 minutes ago by the end of a ...
我把这个演示发给了其他创始人，他们对我们可以深入研究构成 15 分钟前刚刚形成的队列的基本上每个组成原子位部分的方式感到完全震惊......
At the end of a quarter or month or week.
在一个季度、一个月或一周结束时。
Tobi Lütke: In a lot of different places, this is one of them but also in its products, it's just not overfitting for the quantifiable.
Tobi Lütke：在很多不同的地方，这就是其中之一，而且在它的产品中，它只是没有过度拟合可量化的结果。
Everyone competes for everything but it's highly quantifiable because it's ...
每个人都在争夺一切，但它是高度可量化的，因为它......
It's fun, it's like a game.
很有趣，就像一场游戏。
You tweak a number and 0.1 more is better than 0.1 less.
你调整一个数字，多 0.1 比少 0.1 好。
That's an immediate gratification thing.
这是一件立即令人满足的事情。
But I just think the overlap of most valuable things you can do with a product, and for things that happen to be fully quantifiable, it's like maybe 20% which leaves 80% of a value space unaddressable by the people who will only look at quantifiable things.
但我只是认为你可以用产品做的最有价值的事情的重叠，对于那些碰巧完全可量化的事情来说，大约有 20%，这使得 80% 的价值空间对于那些只关注可量化事情的人来说是无法解决的。
Shopify is comfortable with the unquantifiable things such as tastes, quality, passion, love, hate.
Shopify 乐于接受无法量化的事物，例如品味、质量、热情、爱、恨。
It's with the strong emotions that people have.
这是人们拥有的强烈情感。
Tobi Lütke: The sort of deep satisfaction that a craftsperson feels when they've done a job well is actually better proxy if you allow it to be then the ...
Tobi Lütke：工匠在出色完成工作时所感受到的那种深深的满足感实际上是更好的代表，如果你允许它成为......
Do a unit test pass.
进行单元测试通过。
A unit tests might not pass.
单元测试可能无法通过。
And the unit tests will pass 15 minutes later because we already fix them or adjust the one or two things so they support us.
单元测试将在 15 分钟后通过，因为我们已经修复它们或调整一两件事，以便它们支持我们。
We have systems that tell us exactly if something goes the wrong way.
我们拥有可以准确告诉我们是否出现问题的系统。
There's an extremely sophisticated rollout system in Shopify that forever holdouts and correlates everything with everything for ...
Shopify 中有一个极其复杂的推出系统，它永远坚持并将所有内容与所有内容关联起来......
In every experiment and so on and so on and so on.
在每一个实验中等等等等。
But if you think about it as a cockpit for a pilot.
但如果你把它想象成飞行员的驾驶舱。
The decisions are still made by pilots and we think this leads to better results.
决定仍然由飞行员做出，我们认为这会带来更好的结果。
It's just the same with our product.
这和我们的产品是一样的。
There's plenty of A/B testing tools and all these things for commerce, and it's, of course, really important to figure out what your conversion rates are.
有大量的 A/B 测试工具和所有这些用于商业的东西，当然，弄清楚你的转化率是多少非常重要。
But are you representing your brand is an unquantifiable question?
但你代表你的品牌是一个无法量化的问题吗？
Are you proud of the thing that you have built?
你对你所建造的东西感到自豪吗？
Do you feel it's your own, right?
你觉得这是你自己的吧？
Tobi Lütke: And so I think there needs to be more acceptance in businesses or for unquantifiable things.
Tobi Lütke：所以我认为企业或对于无法量化的事情需要有更多的接受度。
The most powerful, not unquantifiable things in the world of business are fun and delight.
商业世界中最强大且无法量化的东西就是乐趣和愉悦。
If people have fun when they're doing something that is just upstream from so ...
如果人们在做上游的事情时感到有趣......
Sorry, downstream from so many other things.
抱歉，在很多其他事情的下游。
I think that if all the metrics are pointing down but everyone says, "My God, I'm having so much more fun," I think that the very next thing that will happen with some time delay is all metrics will start going up.
我认为，如果所有指标都指向下降，但每个人都说，“天哪，我玩得多开心”，我认为，经过一段时间的延迟后，所有指标都会开始上升。
And if that doesn't happen then we adjust course.
如果这种情况没有发生，我们就会调整路线。
Tobi Lütke: The reason why we specifically don't have OKRs and these things is because ...
Tobi Lütke：我们之所以没有 OKR 和这些东西，是因为……
If you want to hold the unquantifiable as things that are stable and exist ...
如果你想将不可量化的事物视为稳定且存在的事物......
That people actually do really defer to them and really actually learn to be okay with someone just saying, "Hey, this is actually just really great and they're shipping this" then you need to make certain edits to a business that don't remind everyone too much of the companies they might have come from which the only way to get promoted is by driving the metric up.
人们确实真的很尊重他们，并且真的学会接受别人只是说，“嘿，这实际上真的很棒，他们正在交付这个”，那么你需要对企业进行某些编辑，不要让每个人过多地想起他们可能来自的公司，而晋升的唯一方法就是提高指标。
It's a bit of a conversation I suppose.
我想这只是一场对话。
Good on the fortune cookies saying, "Shopify doesn't do OKRs or doesn't do metrics" and so on.
幸运饼干说得很好，“Shopify 不执行 OKR 或不执行指标”等等。
But it's actually just because the metrics take us function where we often defer to just more ...
但实际上，这只是因为指标让我们发挥作用，而我们往往更倾向于......
Sometimes a little bit emotional but generally less quantifiable things.
有时会有点情绪化但通常不太量化的事情。
Lenny Rachitsky: I imagine if someone were to hear you describe this of focus on joy, and fun, and love, and delight, maybe ...
莱尼·拉奇茨基：我想如果有人听到你描述这种对快乐、乐趣、爱和喜悦的关注，也许......
It's easy to dismiss that.
人们很容易忽视这一点。
Tobi Lütke: It sounds completely idiotic, right?
Tobi Lütke：这听起来很愚蠢，对吧？
Again, there's an aesthetic in the world that exists which is that business people dress in suit and tie, they are speaking much more sophisticated than I do usually without an accent, have a full head of hair.
再说一次，世界上存在着一种审美，那就是商务人士穿着西装打领带，他们说话比我平时更复杂，没有口音，有一头浓密的头发。
They talk about metrics, they are in front of PowerPoint presentations, they usually have a stick and show dramatically at the pie chart that is behind them.
他们谈论指标，他们在 PowerPoint 演示文稿前面，他们通常拿着一根棍子，在后面的饼图上戏剧性地展示。
And highly charismatic, highly ...
而且非常有魅力，非常...
So that's our aesthetic.
这就是我们的审美。
How much is that aesthetic overlapped with our performance?
这种审美与我们的表演有多少重叠？
I don't know but some of them ...
我不知道，但其中一些...
Some people pull it off who are like this.
有些人就是这样。
I think the world is sort of stacked to lead us astray based on our stories about what optimal looks like are just so incorrect in so many ways.
我认为这个世界有点让我们误入歧途，因为我们关于最佳外观的故事在很多方面都是不正确的。
Optimism always sounds dumb, or at least naive.
乐观听起来总是愚蠢的，或者至少是天真的。
Pessimism sounds extremely sophisticated.
悲观主义听起来极其复杂。
Metrics driven sounds extremely sophisticated.
指标驱动听起来极其复杂。
Talking about fun sounds like naive.
谈论乐趣听起来很天真。
Tobi Lütke: Well, first of all, I've always ignored what people think generally.
Tobi Lütke：嗯，首先，我总是忽略人们的普遍想法。
That came pretty natively to me somehow which I'm very lucky about.
这对我来说是天生的，我很幸运。
But I've now actually learned that almost all of the alpha in the world is now in the ...
但我现在实际上了解到，世界上几乎所有的阿尔法现在都在……
Exactly the things that are unobvious but true.
正是那些不明显但真实的事情。
And the things that people dismiss as naive or so.
以及那些被人们视为天真的事情。
The most successful business person on planet Earth is Elon and he conforms to no idea of what the most sophisticated business person ought to be like in any which way you can imagine.
地球上最成功的商人是埃隆，他不符合你能想象到的最成熟的商人应该是什么样子的想法。
I think we live in a world where the counterfactuals are winning because our ...
我认为我们生活在一个反事实获胜的世界，因为我们的......
Because aesthetics are just leading us astray.
因为美学只会让我们误入歧途。
Lenny Rachitsky: This is an awesome segue to the other theme that I wanted to spend some time on which is thinking from first principles, Elon is the classic example of that.
Lenny Rachitsky：这是对另一个主题的精彩延续，我想花一些时间从第一原理出发思考，Elon 就是一个典型的例子。
Honestly, I think you're the other most classic example of that these days.
老实说，我认为你是当今另一个最经典的例子。
And we'll keep talking about all the ways you operate very differently from other companies which are examples of this.
我们将继续讨论您与其他公司截然不同的所有运营方式，这就是这方面的例子。
But I want to read a quote from Glen Coates, he shared with me, of how he sees you that gives an interesting lens into your first principles thinking.
但我想读一下格伦·科茨 (Glen Coates) 与我分享的一句话，他如何看待你，这为你的第一原理思维提供了一个有趣的视角。
So here's what he said about you.
这就是他对你的评价。
"Tobi is at his heart a true futurist, he's obsessed with the way things should be in the future.
“托比本质上是一位真正的未来主义者，他痴迷于未来事物的发展方式。
Being data-driven is innately being anchored in the way users and technology are behaving today.
数据驱动本质上植根于当今用户和技术的行为方式。
He's never really said this to me explicitly, but knowing him I think any design that is drawn primarily from the way things are or were is one that he sees as inferior to one that is skating to the puck of the way things could or should be." Does that resonate?
他从来没有明确地对我说过这一点，但了解他后，我认为任何主要根据事物现在或过去的方式绘制的设计，在他看来都不如那些按照事物可能或应该的方式滑行的设计。”这引起共鸣吗？
Tobi Lütke: Yeah.
托比·吕特克：是的。
I mean, I think that's correct.
我的意思是，我认为这是正确的。
That's actually really interesting.
这实际上非常有趣。
Your podcast is a podcast by a-
您的播客是由 - 制作的播客
Tobi Lütke: Your podcast is a podcast by a builder for other builders.
Tobi Lütke：您的播客是一个构建者为其他构建者制作的播客。
Here's the most interesting question I think people can ask builders is like, "What is your energy source?
我认为人们可以问建筑商的最有趣的问题是，“你的能源是什么？
Where are you getting energy from?" I think fundamentally the world exists at room temperature.
你从哪里获取能量？”我认为从根本上来说世界是在室温下存在的。
Almost all companies are running at that, humming along, doesn't do anything.
几乎所有的公司都在这么做，嗡嗡作响，什么也没做。
There are certain individuals who can inject heat into businesses.
有些人可以为企业注入活力。
Founders do this very well.
创始人在这方面做得很好。
All the startups anyone's ever heard of have people who are injecting heat because if no one would inject heat into the business, at room temperature, you cannot outperform anyone else.
任何人听说过的所有初创公司都有人在注入热量，因为如果没有人愿意为业务注入热量，在室温下，你就无法超越其他任何人。
You can't be hotter than everyone else if no one's injecting heat into the concern.
如果没有人为问题注入热度，你就不可能比其他人更热。
So fundamentally, there is a injection of energy into companies that comes from founders and the best leaders, like all the people you've had on the podcast from Shopify have a perfect set of cast of characters of people who are just exothermic.
因此，从根本上来说，公司的注入活力来自于创始人和最优秀的领导者，就像你在 Shopify 播客中看到的所有人都拥有一套完美的热情洋溢的人物角色。
They are just like wellsprings of energy that leads to all the amazing results that we get to enjoy.
它们就像能量的源泉，带来我们所享受的所有令人惊奇的结果。
Tobi Lütke: So the question is where does energy comes from?
Tobi Lütke：那么问题是能量从哪里来？
And that's another one of our discussions which very quickly goes into the emotions.
这是我们的另一场讨论，很快就进入了情感层面。
Actually, there's a really...
其实，真的有一个...
So I watched The Last Dance, the Netflix special of Michael Jordan a while ago, of course, but there was one scene where he just, I'm sure this is a super famous story and he just made up an insight that someone told him so that he would then go and just want to destroy them afterwards, which he then of course proceeded to do because it's hard to imagine anyone more exothermic than him.
当然，我不久前观看了迈克尔·乔丹的 Netflix 特别节目《最后之舞》，但有一个场景，他只是，我确信这是一个超级著名的故事，他只是编造了一个别人告诉他的见解，然后他就想在事后摧毁它们，然后他当然就这么做了，因为很难想象还有比他更热情的人了。
So we know what his energy source is.
所以我们知道他的能量来源是什么。
It's rivalry.
这是竞争。
It's potentially it's insight or it's anger, something like this.
它可能是洞察力或愤怒，诸如此类。
Tobi Lütke: I am not...
托比·吕特克：我不是……
My energy source is dissatisfaction with status quo.
我的能量来源是对现状的不满。
My fundamental belief is all this talk about technology where all...
我的基本信念是所有这些关于技术的讨论都......
So many books are about just technology leading to dystopia.
很多书都是关于导致反乌托邦的技术。
You know what dystopia is?
你知道什么是反乌托邦吗？
Today, compared to what it will be in 20 years ago or any.
今天，与 20 年前或任何时候相比。
And you can play this for any part of human history.
你可以在人类历史的任何部分发挥这一作用。
I'm not making a future statement.
我不会发表未来的声明。
I'm making a almost totalical statement about the experience on planet Earth.
我正在对地球上的经历做一个几乎全面的陈述。
No one who really thinks about this would want to be born into a world 20 years before today rather than today.
真正思考过这一点的人都不会愿意出生在 20 年前的世界，而不是今天。
And so I think today is the dystopia of future, and I think it behooves us to try to build the kinds of products that lead in towards progress in a small way or a big way.
因此，我认为今天是未来的反乌托邦，我认为我们有必要尝试构建能够以小方式或大方式引领进步的产品。
But yes, I think if someone comes to me and says, "Hey, let's go do this thing.
但是，是的，我想如果有人来找我说：“嘿，我们去做这件事吧。
And we've looked around and here's how people solve this problem, let's make a good version of that," I'm like, "That was not the job." Because everything that you encounter, that every solution, every product, everything that exists is path-dependent, highly, highly, highly path-dependent, and often path-dependent based on having to make compromises, based on things that were true at the time a decision was made but are no longer true.
我们环顾四周，发现人们是如何解决这个问题的，让我们做出一个好的版本，”我想，“那不是我们的工作。”因为你遇到的一切，每个解决方案，每个产品，存在的一切都是路径依赖的，高度，高度，高度路径依赖，并且通常基于必须做出妥协的路径依赖，基于做出决定时正确但不再正确的事情。
Tobi Lütke: The entire field of...
Tobi Lütke：整个领域...
What was it?
那是什么？
I forgot the name of a field.
我忘记了一个字段的名称。
Chomsky's field, the linguistic research field.
乔姆斯基的领域，语言学研究领域。
It's cool.
这很酷。
We now have autoregressive models that are just like, we don't actually need to set up a complete...
我们现在有了自回归模型，就像我们实际上不需要建立一个完整的......
We don't need to research the structure of grammar to be able to make machines also engage in the spoken word.
我们不需要研究语法结构就能够让机器也参与口语单词。
We actually can just train on the internet, it turns out.
事实证明，我们实际上可以在互联网上进行训练。
So that was not possible back then because you didn't have the right architecture for this, but now it is.
所以这在当时是不可能的，因为你没有合适的架构，但现在可以了。
So I think what you have to do is to actually have, when you come up with a new product or you discuss a new product, you have to derive it from first principles.
所以我认为你要做的就是当你想出一个新产品或讨论一个新产品时，你必须从第一原则中得出它。
You have to say, "How would we solve this problem given every fundamental building block that we have available right now?"
你必须说，“考虑到我们现在可用的每个基本构建块，我们将如何解决这个问题？”
Tobi Lütke: For that, to do that, you actually have to understand the power and the composability of all the building blocks that exist right now, which is a tall order and no one is perfect at this.
Tobi Lütke：为此，您实际上必须了解现有所有构建块的功能和可组合性，这是一项艰巨的任务，没有人在这方面是完美的。
But so this way, you go ahead and say, "Okay, cool, so this is how we are implementing this thing.
但这样一来，你就可以说：“好吧，酷，这就是我们实现这个东西的方式。
This is how it will be implemented today." And now we can talk ourselves in taking shortcuts.
这就是今天的实施方式。”现在我们可以说服自己走捷径。
"Maybe we should actually start up doing it the way everyone else does.
“也许我们实际上应该像其他人一样开始这样做。
Maybe we derived exactly what everyone else does as the correct thing to do."
也许我们准确地得出了其他人所做的正确的事情。”
Tobi Lütke: Sometimes there was a lot more wisdom encoded in the status quo than you expect, which is I think is super delightful.
Tobi Lütke：有时候，现状中蕴含的智慧比你想象的要多得多，我认为这是超级令人愉快的。
Then you figure that out and so when you act on it.
然后你就会弄清楚这一点，然后当你采取行动时。
But what isn't okay is skipping the exercise and doing the same thing everyone else does because that is again a abdication of product leadership.
但不可以的是跳过这个练习并做与其他人相同的事情，因为这又是放弃产品领导力。
And so yeah, I would say I become extremely suspicious if I get a pitch to do a good version of the same thing everyone else does because I just find that in our space specifically very rarely to be the best solution.
所以，是的，我想说，如果我得到一个推销做其他人所做的同样事情的好版本，我会变得非常怀疑，因为我只是发现在我们的领域，特别是很少是最好的解决方案。
Lenny Rachitsky: There's a couple quotes along these lines I've seen that describe the way you think about this stuff.
Lenny Rachitsky：我看到有几句话描述了您对这个问题的看法。
"If most people are doing it a certain way, I, by default, don't want to do it that way.
“如果大多数人都以某种方式做事，那么默认情况下，我不想那样做。
And if you want to do something world-class, you can't do it like everyone else."
如果你想做一些世界级的事情，你就不能像其他人一样做。”
Tobi Lütke: Yeah.
托比·吕特克：是的。
I don't even think that's an opinion that I hold.
我什至不认为这是我所持的观点。
I think that's actually...
我认为这实际上是...
We are basically in axiom territory here.
我们基本上处于公理领域。
If you want to do something better than what exists, you have to do it differently.
如果你想做得比现有的更好，你就必须以不同的方式去做。
That does not make a statement about if it will be better in the end after you do it.
这并没有说明你这样做后最终是否会更好。
It could also be worse.
情况也可能更糟。
But you can't get something better done if you do the same thing.
但如果你做同样的事情，你就无法把事情做得更好。
It's like axiomatically not possible to do.
这就像公理上不可能做到的那样。
It's fails Archimedean logic, yet it's something...
这不符合阿基米德逻辑，但它是……
You would be amazed how many business plans are actually failing Archimedean logic in this way like, "Let's do a good version of this thing that we've already been doing and we will capture 1% of the market," and just like this stuff.
你会惊讶地发现有多少商业计划实际上以这种方式违背了阿基米德逻辑，比如“让我们对我们已经在做的事情做一个好的版本，我们将占领 1% 的市场”，就像这样的东西。
It's like, "Trust me." I find it kind of cute.
就像是“相信我”。我觉得有点可爱。
Lenny Rachitsky: Is there an example that you can share of you approaching the problem this way?
Lenny Rachitsky：您可以举个例子来说明您是如何解决这个问题的吗？
I imagine it's constantly happening.
我想这种情况会不断发生。
You also mentioned you're born this way.
你还提到你生来如此。
So I think it's hard for someone to just sit down, learn, think the way Tobi thinks, but I'd love to help people start to approach problems this way, so maybe an example might help.
所以我认为有人很难像托比那样坐下来学习、思考，但我很乐意帮助人们开始以这种方式解决问题，所以也许一个例子可能会有所帮助。
Tobi Lütke: I think this is entirely learnable, I think.
Tobi Lütke：我认为这是完全可以学习的。
And so I encourage people to just have a practice of think step by step essentially and just do it.
因此，我鼓励人们练习从根本上一步步思考并付诸实践。
It'll become a habit pretty quickly because it just, it also just outperforms.
它很快就会成为一种习惯，因为它的表现也非常出色。
Tobi Lütke: Examples.
Tobi Lütke：例子。
The very first example is Shopify itself.
第一个例子是 Shopify 本身。
It's cool.
这很酷。
So there was lots of e-commerce software and it was all the way it was because of path dependence because everyone who want it in 2004, 2005, e-commerce was an existing retailer and therefore they had complex businesses that needed to be ported online, including all of their somewhat Byzantine business logic.
所以有很多电子商务软件，这都是因为路径依赖，因为在 2004 年、2005 年，每个想要电子商务的人都是现有的零售商，因此他们有复杂的业务需要移植到网上，包括所有有点拜占庭式的业务逻辑。
"I wanted to make e-commerce software that would do very well on the internet of the future and I believe that we can make it easier to start new businesses online than it is in a physical world because the physical world is encumbered by a lot of regulations and also upfront costs for leases and so on.
“我想制作一款能够在未来的互联网上表现出色的电子商务软件，我相信我们可以让在网上开展新业务比在现实世界中更容易，因为现实世界受到大量法规以及租赁等前期成本的阻碍。
So let's optimize for that case and build something that is so intuitive to use that frustrated people in dead-end careers can spend their lunch breaks making progress towards building their own business, which then eventually allows them to do it on their own way."
因此，让我们针对这种情况进行优化，并构建一些使用起来非常直观的东西，让那些在职业生涯陷入困境的沮丧的人可以利用午休时间来建立自己的业务，从而最终让他们能够以自己的方式去做。”
Tobi Lütke: And so being fortune was biased, eventually it turns out to be a much better prep for also solving all the enterprise cases because no one had to...
Tobi Lütke：因此，财富是有偏见的，最终证明它是解决所有企业案件的更好的准备，因为没有人必须......
Enterprise software is overfit to the sales process, which is that it wins the RFPs because it has every feature ever or at least a way of putting a checkbox next to every RFP line ever.
企业软件过于适合销售流程，也就是说，它赢得了 RFP，因为它拥有有史以来的所有功能，或者至少有一种在每个 RFP 行旁边放置复选框的方法。
But they're not good, right?
但他们并不好，对吧？
An RFP is a great example of overfitting in the world of procurement because it tells you nothing about the quality of software behind it.
RFP 是采购领域过度拟合的一个很好的例子，因为它没有告诉您其背后的软件质量。
But honestly, this happens all the time.
但老实说，这种情况经常发生。
It is just like here, we are setting the stage for much more, much higher quality retrieval for the products on Shopify and across Shopify.
就像这里一样，我们正在为 Shopify 和整个 Shopify 上的产品进行更多、更高质量的检索奠定基础。
I think we've been in a local maxima on search and we think that, especially with the advances of the new models, certain things are now possible to do that could not have been done yet because again of these layers and layers of path dependence and no one coming and saying, "Is that the best way to do and maybe we should rebuild this component periodically?" We can now do a better job if search that will leads to much more delightful experiences.
我认为我们已经处于搜索的局部最大值，我们认为，特别是随着新模型的进步，某些以前无法完成的事情现在可以做到，因为这些层又层的路径依赖，没有人来问，“这是最好的方法吗？也许我们应该定期重建这个组件？”如果搜索能够带来更愉快的体验，我们现在可以做得更好。
And so this is a fun project that this happening right now in.
所以这是一个有趣的项目，现在正在发生这种情况。
Lenny Rachitsky: I think this is really interesting because what I'm looking for is like the Tobi algorithm of first principles thinking.
Lenny Rachitsky：我认为这真的很有趣，因为我正在寻找类似于第一原理思维的 Tobi 算法。
Elon's got these famous ways of thinking he shared.
埃隆拥有他所分享的这些著名的思维方式。
One is start with the cost of metal to help you understand how much a rocket should cost.
一是从金属成本开始，帮助您了解火箭的成本。
And then he's got this five-step.
然后他就完成了这五步。
First, decide, do we need this thing?
首先，决定，我们需要这个东西吗？
Then figure out how to optimize it, then automate it.
然后找出如何优化它，然后自动化它。
What I'm hearing so far, and I'm curious if you've thought about this?
到目前为止我所听到的，我很好奇你是否考虑过这个问题？
And if not, this feels like a really good blog post in your futures, the Tobi first principles algorithm, but I'll share a couple of things I've heard so far as you've described it.
如果没有，这感觉就像是您未来的一篇非常好的博客文章，Tobi 第一原理算法，但我将分享一些我所听到的到目前为止您所描述的内容。
Lenny Rachitsky: One is analyze the path that existing solution has relied on, almost like the assumptions that were true for it to be built back and it was built.
Lenny Rachitsky：一是分析现有解决方案所依赖的路径，几乎就像重建它并构建它的假设一样。
And the other is this overfit, what is it overfit for?
还有一个就是这个过拟合，它过拟合是为了什么？
What is it over solving that maybe isn't necessary?
到底有什么问题是不必要的？
Is there anything along those lines of just how you approach problems?
您处理问题的方式是否与这些类似？
Tobi Lütke: This is probably too nerdy technical.
Tobi Lütke：这可能太技术性了。
You are right, but I should figure myself out a little bit.
你说得对，但我应该弄清楚自己。
My brain runs on a meter language but isn't directly something I can translate into words, I suppose.
我的大脑以米语言运行，但我想这并不是我可以直接翻译成单词的东西。
I think more about things like this in terms of programming constructs, pure functions, overstate.
我更多地从编程结构、纯函数、夸大其词的角度思考这样的事情。
And I think in any moment, the best decision to do is I think the perfect product lead is almost like a thermostat for high quality product.
我认为在任何时候，最好的决定是我认为完美的产品线索几乎就像高质量产品的恒温器。
It's like you're setting, saying, "I would like to build something really, really great and I'm going to go through a series which is much, much more complex than what a thermostat does," which basically checks the temperature and then makes a decision of air con or heating.
就像你在设置时说，“我想要建造一些非常非常伟大的东西，我将经历一系列比恒温器复杂得多的过程”，它基本上检查温度，然后决定是空调还是暖气。
You make you re-derive literally every decision that is valuable, every foundational assumption, every foundational ABC direction.
你让你重新推导每一个有价值的决定、每一个基本假设、每一个基本的 ABC 方向。
And you want to see the observation you've made in the meantime since you last derived the next step.
您希望查看自上次导出下一步以来您在此期间所做的观察。
Re-running the entire function over the state that is now updated, the higher fidelity information, would you come to the very same thing?
在现在更新的状态上重新运行整个函数，更高保真度的信息，你会得到同样的结果吗？
Tobi Lütke: Sometimes fairly early in the construct in the tree of foundational assumptions, change is made.
Tobi Lütke：有时，在构建基本假设树的早期阶段，就会做出改变。
An example we all had was beginning of COVID when we suddenly had shelter in place.
我们都遇到过的一个例子是，新冠疫情爆发时，我们突然有了避难所。
So Shopify has that incredibly good office spaces and we were very in-person company and we've...
所以 Shopify 拥有非常好的办公空间，我们是一家非常人性化的公司，我们......
Our floor plans because I think we really added something to the understanding of how to put great...
我们的平面图，因为我认为我们确实增加了一些关于如何放置伟大的东西的理解......
I got a lot of founder energy from my co-founder, Daniel, to build great collaborative spaces for creative work with lots of happy accidents, people running into each other and so on.
我从我的联合创始人丹尼尔那里得到了很多创始人的能量，为创造性工作建立了伟大的协作空间，其中有很多快乐的意外，人们彼此相遇等等。
Tobi Lütke: Anyway, we were very, very, very, very determined on doing that.
Tobi Lütke：无论如何，我们非常非常非常决心这样做。
But somewhere in this construct of nesting functions, you have to rerun and foundational assumptions.
但在这个嵌套函数构造中的某个地方，您必须重新运行基本假设。
It's in the stack is the fairly basic Boolean of are people allowed to leave a house?
堆栈中包含相当基本的布尔值：人们是否可以离开房子？
Which was yes.
是的。
The moment that flips, it's not that just like, "Okay, over here let's do the best what we can do." It's actually that the entire tree now moves into a different place.
翻转的那一刻，并不是那么简单，“好吧，在这里，让我们尽我们所能。”事实上，整棵树现在移动到了不同的地方。
And it can be a very far place, different, that you land because you will make the same quality of decision on every step, but you need to rerun something that takes you to a completely different landing zone.
你着陆的地方可能是一个非常遥远、不同的地方，因为你在每一步都会做出相同质量的决策，但你需要重新运行一些东西，将你带到一个完全不同的着陆区域。
And so then this is also easy for us to say, "Cool, we are going to be remote only forever?
所以我们也很容易说，“酷，我们只会永远远程？
Let's go." And because we realized that the temporal shelter in place would cause a series of events that would make that for optimal best set of trade-offs for the company.
我们走吧。”因为我们意识到，临时庇护所会导致一系列事件，从而为公司带来最佳的最佳权衡。
And so I think this is...
所以我认为这是...
Can I put this into a piffy five-step?
我可以把它分成五步吗？
I wouldn't know, but maybe it resonates with someone who can help me figure out the coded English language for this because it has been nerdy way the I explained it, even to me.
我不知道，但也许它会引起能够帮助我找出编码英语语言的人的共鸣，因为我解释它的方式一直很书呆子，即使对我来说也是如此。
Lenny Rachitsky: This remote work example is something I definitely wanted to touch on, which is I'm glad you got there.
Lenny Rachitsky：这个远程工作示例是我绝对想谈的，我很高兴你能来到这里。
So in this decision, is there anything more you could share about how you got to that place of like, "Oh this Boolean changed so we should rethink this?" Because I know you probably, you weren't...
因此，在这个决定中，您还有什么可以分享的关于您如何达到这样的地方，“哦，这个布尔值发生了变化，所以我们应该重新考虑这个？”因为我知道你可能，你不是...
I don't know.
我不知道。
Were you in the shower and just like, "Oh wow, we should really go remote because of this"?
你是否在洗澡时想，“哦哇，因此我们真的应该去远程”？
How did that actually come about?
这到底是怎么发生的？
And then I wanted to ask on another part-
然后我想问另一部分——
Tobi Lütke: Yeah, pretty much actually yes because again, I rerun over all the inputs and figure out what happens.
Tobi Lütke：是的，实际上几乎是的，因为我再次重新运行所有输入并弄清楚会发生什么。
And here's a couple of other things that were starting to fray on the decision to be in person as well.
还有其他一些事情也开始影响亲自出席的决定。
We started in Ottawa, Canada, which is a city of a million people, and it has some tech heritage and good universities.
我们从加拿大渥太华开始，这是一个拥有百万人口的城市，拥有一些科技遗产和优秀的大学。
But at a million people, it's just not population dense enough and has a depth of talent pool that it can support a company that is going to 10,000 people.
但对于 100 万人来说，它的人口密度和人才库深度还不足以支持一家拥有 10,000 名员工的公司。
So anyone who runs this optimization function I'm talking about here about location strategy for a new startup will come to the conclusion if they do it right that everyone should be sitting around the same table.
因此，任何运行我在这里谈论的关于新初创公司的位置策略的优化功能的人都会得出结论，如果他们做得正确，每个人都应该坐在同一张桌子旁。
Only if you can't do that, do you say, "Okay, let's be all in the same couple of rooms." Only if that doesn't work anymore, you say, "Okay, let's be spread over one floor." If that doesn't work, in the same building.
只有当你做不到时，你才会说：“好吧，我们都住在同一间房间里吧。”只有当这不再起作用时，你才会说：“好吧，我们分散在一层楼吧。”如果这不起作用，就在同一栋楼里。
If that doesn't work, in the same city.
如果不行的话，就在同一个城市。
If that doesn't work, at least stay in the same time zones or make sure that there's good hub connections between.
如果这不起作用，至少留在同一时区或确保之间有良好的枢纽连接。
Tobi Lütke: This is how it works.
Tobi Lütke：这就是它的工作原理。
It's just like some assumption somewhere along the line is invalidated.
这就像沿线某个地方的某些假设是无效的。
You end up in a different side of a decision tree.
您最终会处于决策树的不同一侧。
But what was happening to us was we already were in four or five cities.
但发生在我们身上的事情是我们已经在四五个城市了。
We were adhering to the same time zone at this point.
此时我们遵守同一时区。
But my experience was I went through, sometimes at the Ottawa office, through an entire day where I had 10 hours of meetings, which is fairly normal, but I do every single...
但我的经验是，有时在渥太华办公室，我一整天都要开 10 个小时的会议，这很正常，但我会做每一个……
I don't think I had a single other person sometimes with me because every one of them was with people in another office.
我认为有时没有一个人和我在一起，因为他们每个人都和另一间办公室的人在一起。
Some people are dialing in remote and so on.
有些人正在远程拨号等等。
So there was an awkward hybrid-ness which we ended up in making only good decisions along the way.
因此，存在一种尴尬的混合性，我们最终只做出了正确的决定。
Tobi Lütke: This is actually the most dangerous thing.
Tobi Lütke：这实际上是最危险的事情。
Most of the time you end up in a bad part of a tree, in a local maxima of a path-dependent environment, by only making good choices.
大多数时候，只要做出正确的选择，你就会陷入树的不良部分，处于路径依赖环境的局部最大值中。
People think that making a good choice inoculates you from making mistakes or that the presence of a downside of an idea ends up disqualifying the idea.
人们认为，做出正确的选择可以避免犯错误，或者想法的缺点的存在最终会导致该想法失去资格。
Both of those things are incorrect.
这两件事都是不正确的。
So what you need to do then is...
那么你需要做的是...
So that was an overlay to decision.
所以这是一个叠加的决定。
Tobi Lütke: The moment COVID started, then we also had this thing of shoppers exploding because we were actually an asset to people during COVID, e-commerce for the local businesses.
Tobi Lütke：从新冠疫情开始的那一刻起，我们就出现了购物者爆炸式增长的情况，因为在新冠疫情期间，我们实际上是人们的资产，是当地企业的电子商务。
And we took that very, very seriously trying to make more businesses survive COVID, small businesses survive this particular calamity than otherwise won't which is important because small businesses tend to be wiped out first anytime the times turn fragile.
我们非常非常认真地努力让更多的企业在新冠疫情中幸存下来，小企业在这场特殊的灾难中幸存下来，这一点很重要，因为每当时代变得脆弱时，小企业往往会首先被消灭。
And so we needed to staff up.
所以我们需要增加人员。
And so there's a very weird question about where to staff up.
因此，存在一个非常奇怪的问题，即在哪里配备人员。
So clearly the better input there would be if you could hire people everywhere.
显然，如果你能在各地雇用员工，那么投入会更好。
And so once that decision flipped, you can see how this is actually now super easy to say, "We are going to remote," because there is no turning back.
因此，一旦这个决定发生转变，你就会发现现在说“我们要远程”实际上是非常容易的，因为没有回头路了。
There is no...
没有...
Even with this decision, it's a better set of trade-offs for the future is to accept the vast additional difficulty of building a remote company.
即使做出了这个决定，对未来来说更好的权衡是接受建立远程公司所面临的巨大额外困难。
It's way harder.
这要困难得多。
Tobi Lütke: It's not something you should recommend to anyone to do this because it's the same as trying to run a world record marathon run in Aspen, Colorado.
Tobi Lütke：您不应该建议任何人这样做，因为这与尝试在科罗拉多州阿斯彭跑马拉松世界纪录是一样的。
It's like there's not enough oxygen up there to do that.
就好像那里没有足够的氧气来做到这一点。
But if you end up pulling it off, you're a real Chad.
但如果你最终成功了，你就是一个真正的查德。
That's very cool.
太酷了。
So I find difficulty itself interesting.
所以我觉得困难本身很有趣。
And again, I spent enough of my teenage years on the internet to know that there's amazing cultures that can be put together purely remote like, I don't know, Wikipedia, World of Warcraft, Raiding Guilds can at least have excellent cultures.
再说一遍，我在互联网上度过了足够多的青少年时期，知道有一些令人惊叹的文化可以完全远程地组合在一起，我不知道，维基百科，魔兽世界，Raiding Guilds至少可以拥有优秀的文化。
And so we are like, "Okay, cool.
所以我们就像，“好吧，酷。
Let's come to a new stable part." That stable part was don't port the office online.
让我们进入一个新的稳定部分。”这个稳定的部分是不要将办公室移植到网上。
Let's port the internet into a company and then we are like, "Let's go."
让我们将互联网移植到一家公司，然后我们就会说：“我们走吧。”
Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by Loom.
Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 Loom 为您带来。
Loom lets you record your screen, your camera, and your voice to share video messages easily.
Loom 可让您录制屏幕、相机和语音，以便轻松共享视频消息。
Record a Loom and send it out with just a link to gather feedback, add context, or share an update.
记录 Loom 并仅通过链接发送出去，以收集反馈、添加上下文或共享更新。
So now you can delete that novel-length email that you are writing.
现在您可以删除您正在编写的那封小说长度的电子邮件。
Instead, you can record your screen and share your message faster.
相反，您可以录制屏幕并更快地分享您的消息。
Loom can help you have fewer meetings and make the meetings that you do have much more productive.
Loom 可以帮助您减少会议次数，并提高会议效率。
Meetings start with everyone on the same page and end early.
会议开始时，每个人都意见一致，并提前结束。
Problem solved, time saved.
问题解决了，时间也节省了。
We know that everyone is in a one-take wonder when it comes to recording videos.
我们知道，当谈到录制视频时，每个人都会感到惊讶。
So Loom comes with easy editing and AI features to help you record once and get back to the work that counts.
因此，Loom 配备了简单的编辑和 AI 功能，可帮助您录制一次并重新开始重要的工作。
Save time, align your team, stay connected, and get more done with Loom.
使用 Loom 节省时间、协调团队、保持联系并完成更多工作。
Now, part of Atlassian, the makers of Jira.
现在，是 Jira 的制造商 Atlassian 的一部分。
Try Loom for free today at loom.com/lenny.
立即访问 loom.com/lenny 免费试用 Loom。
That's L-O-O-M.com/lenny.
那是 L-O-O-M.com/lenny。
I want to talk about this talent stack concept that you've touched on a couple of times that I think so much.
我想谈谈你已经多次提到的人才堆栈概念，我对此深有感触。
But before we get there, I want to go in a different direction, which I think is an interesting foundational element to your ability to be successful in your first principles thinking, which is you getting to the metal, to the core of the problems you're solving by actually spending a lot of time coding.
但在我们到达那里之前，我想朝一个不同的方向前进，我认为这是你在第一原则思维中取得成功的能力的一个有趣的基础要素，即你通过实际花费大量时间编码来深入了解你正在解决的问题的核心。
And I actually heard a story about how you all had this huge all-hands summit.
我实际上听说过一个关于你们如何举行这次大型全体会议的故事。
You flew everyone in.
你把所有人都飞进来了。
You're all together.
你们都在一起了。
There was a three-day hackathon.
有一个为期三天的黑客马拉松。
And the way it was described is you're sitting at a table with headphones in, coding, just like any IC engineer.
描述的方式是，你坐在桌前，戴着耳机，编码，就像任何 IC 工程师一样。
No one would've known you're the CEO of this company, the founder of this company.
没有人会知道你是这家公司的首席执行官，这家公司的创始人。
Why is coding and working in the code to you still so important?
为什么编码和在代码中工作对您来说仍然如此重要？
Tobi Lütke: It's so funny that that's the way the story goes.
Tobi Lütke：故事就是这样发展的，这太有趣了。
It's right, but I don't know why that is surprising.
是的，但我不知道为什么这令人惊讶。
That's my happy place, being able to clear out free days of my calendar and being there till midnight with all these remarkable people who join us on journey, just building stuff.
这是我快乐的地方，能够腾出日历上的空闲时间，并与所有这些加入我们旅程的杰出人士一起待到午夜，只是建造东西。
It's like, I do my job so that that is the jobs that exist for other people.
就像，我做我的工作，所以这就是其他人的工作。
That's a job I actually want.
这才是我真正想要的工作。
That's the one I couldn't find because no one did a company for me.
那是我找不到的，因为没有人为我创办一家公司。
But at least back in most days, I think still not really.
但至少在大多数日子里，我认为仍然不是。
Tobi Lütke: And so I just love coding.
Tobi Lütke：所以我就是喜欢编码。
It's one of the greatest, I don't know, hobbies and pursuits.
我不知道，这是最伟大的爱好和追求之一。
I've done it for a very long time.
我已经做了很长时间了。
I came across it very, very early.
我很早就发现了它。
It fits my brain like a glove.
它就像手套一样适合我的大脑。
I appreciate so much of the craft behind coding.
我非常欣赏编码背后的技巧。
I am a trained apprentice in...
我是一名训练有素的学徒...
Sorry, I've apprenticed as a programmer in Germany, which has a dual education system that you can do such things.
抱歉，我在德国当过程序员学徒，那里有双元教育体系，你可以做这样的事情。
So I've been professionally in companies spending all day.
所以我一整天都在公司里专业地度过。
And I really mean it, programming ever since I just turned 16.
我是认真的，从我 16 岁起就开始编程。
I think first day was just before I turned 16 when I started my apprenticeship.
我想第一天是在我 16 岁之前，当时我开始了学徒生涯。
Tobi Lütke: And so I love it.
Tobi Lütke：所以我喜欢它。
I have a view on my screen left of you is a cursor right now, which is opened to a Juniper notebook where I'm working on some projection stuff that I'm playing with.
我的屏幕上现在有一个视图，左边是一个光标，它打开到瞻博网络笔记本上，我正在其中处理一些我正在玩的投影内容。
I try to sanity-check as much as I can of what I get.
我尝试尽可能多地检查我得到的东西。
I try to find...
我尝试寻找...
It's a game for me to find new insights in data.
这是一个让我从数据中寻找新见解的游戏。
And I just think, I don't know, it was cool.
我只是想，我不知道，这很酷。
Maybe this is the picture you talk about.
也许这就是你所说的图片。
There is a picture that someone captured, which is really fun where I'm on my laptop with a bunch of engineers and then Harley, so president, is on stage DJing.
有人拍了一张照片，这真的很有趣，我和一群工程师在笔记本电脑上，然后哈利，总裁，在舞台上打碟。
This was taken at 1:00 AM or something like this.
这是在凌晨 1:00 左右拍摄的。
It's a picture which actually really precious to two of us because it perfectly summarizes our relationship in a way which these happy accidents are wonderful and these long journeys, I've been doing Shopify for 20 years now, so I appreciate these artifacts.
这是一张对我们两个人来说非常珍贵的照片，因为它完美地概括了我们的关系，这些幸福的意外是美妙的，这些漫长的旅程，我已经做 Shopify 20 年了，所以我很欣赏这些文物。
But yeah, so...
但是，是的，所以...
Lenny Rachitsky: To be clear, the reason this is unusual is, and why someone told me this story, is most CEOs do not do this, don't just sit there and code along with the team.
Lenny Rachitsky：需要明确的是，这种情况不同寻常的原因是，以及为什么有人告诉我这个故事，是因为大多数首席执行官不会这样做，不会只是坐在那里与团队一起编码。
And the reason I thought this story was important is and the reason I think your first principle approach works is you're actually in the engineering details, similar to Elon if you think about it, of just in the weeds doing the thing, understanding how the thing works, not just coming up with ideas out of pontifications.
我认为这个故事很重要的原因是，我认为你的第一个原则方法有效的原因是你实际上在工程细节中，如果你仔细想想，就像埃隆一样，只是在杂草中做事情，理解事情是如何工作的，而不仅仅是从武断中提出想法。
And so I guess is there anything there of just how important it is, if you want to approach thinking from first principles, it is to be really close to the metal, to the bare metal?
所以我想，如果你想从第一原则出发思考，那就是真正接近金属、接近裸露金属，这到底有多重要？
Tobi Lütke: Well, yeah.
Tobi Lütke：嗯，是的。
First principles thinking starts from, I think Elon puts it as physics, which I think is a little bit atoms-coded.
第一原理思维始于，我认为埃隆将其视为物理学，我认为它有点原子编码。
I think just from the atomic building blocks really is a right starting point.
我认为仅仅从原子构建块开始确实是一个正确的起点。
Atomic building blocks are the computers we are using.
原子构建块是我们正在使用的计算机。
Computers are our instruments.
计算机是我们的工具。
We use them to create the music that when people appreciate to receive in the form of software.
我们用它们来创作人们喜欢以软件形式接收的音乐。
So you've got to understand how they work, at least to work the way I do.
所以你必须了解它们是如何工作的，至少要像我一样工作。
Tobi Lütke: Now, is the way I work optimal?
Tobi Lütke：现在，我的工作方式是最佳的吗？
Of course not.
当然不是。
This is my point about the aesthetics of how to behave, how to work.
这就是我关于如何行为、如何工作的美学观点。
I probably don't conform to the traditional view of what the most of public companies should be like or even should spend their time, but I think I'm successful because I don't try to conform to anything other than what I've learned works.
我可能不符合大多数上市公司应该是什么样子的传统观点，甚至不应该花时间，但我认为我成功了，因为除了我学到的有效方法之外，我不会试图遵循任何其他东西。
And so what I learned works is be in as many details as you can.
所以我学到的有效方法是尽可能详细地描述。
Really, really, really just understand the stuff that we are making decisions about and be willing to don't put too much stake into the sunk cost fallacy.
真的，真的，真的只是了解我们正在做出决策的事情，并且愿意不要在沉没成本谬论中投入太多赌注。
Try to inoculate business or your parts of a company from a sunk cost fallacy as much as possible because that allows you to just see better solutions and so on.
尝试尽可能让业务或公司的各个部分免受沉没成本谬误的影响，因为这可以让您看到更好的解决方案等等。
Tobi Lütke: And I think what we were doing, if I remember right, is at hack dates is we were working through pros or cons of just merging all of Shopify into one huge monorepo and we are sketching out directory structures and tooling that we would need, and...
Tobi Lütke：如果我没记错的话，我认为我们正在做的事情是在 hack 日期，我们正在研究将所有 Shopify 合并到一个巨大的 monorepo 中的利弊，并且我们正在草拟我们需要的目录结构和工具，并且......
Tobi Lütke: ...
托比·吕特克：...
tooling that we would need and...
我们需要的工具以及...
Again, monorepo, now for companies, it's a very much one of those door A, door B kind of things.
再说一次，monorepo，现在对于公司来说，这在很大程度上是一种 A 门、B 门之类的事情。
It's a very consequential choice that is incorrect to go say yes to at a certain size, and then it becomes very correct in my mind to say yes to, but at that point it's an enormous amount of effort.
这是一个非常重要的选择，在一定规模下说“是”是不正确的，然后在我看来说“是”就变得非常正确，但到那时，这是一个巨大的努力。
So, it's a kind of thing that actually is something I'm uniquely positioned to be involved with because it's actually a business strategy thing as well.
所以，这实际上是我独特的定位参与的事情，因为它实际上也是一个业务战略的事情。
That's an investment, a very real investment to say, "Hey, let's change the way we are building system.
这是一项投资，一项非常真实的投资，“嘿，让我们改变构建系统的方式。
Let's figure out what the best way is."
让我们想想最好的办法是什么。”
Tobi Lütke: There's going to be change management.
Tobi Lütke：将会有变革管理。
There's going to be some people that have very strong opinions on yes or no. And frankly, "Tobi said so.", helps.
会有一些人对“是”或“否”持有非常强烈的意见。坦率地说，“托比是这么说的。”，有帮助。
It also compresses a lot of time, because everyone knows the way I book.
也压缩了很多时间，因为大家都知道我预订的方式。
Everyone can come to me with better ideas about anything, and if you're right, I will change my mind.
每个人都可以对任何事情提出更好的想法来找我，如果你是对的，我会改变主意。
But I will hold my opinions very strongly until the point of being convinced that they're not the correct ideas.
但我会非常坚定地坚持我的观点，直到确信它们不是正确的想法。
Maybe that's another aspect of this Tobi Tornado thing you talked about earlier, people do fight.
也许这是你之前谈到的托比龙卷风事件的另一个方面，人们确实会打架。
Tobi Lütke: Again, the aesthetics of our times put a lot of stake into consistency.
Tobi Lütke：再说一遍，我们这个时代的美学非常重视一致性。
I remember various politicians losing campaigns because they were called flip-floppers at times, which I...
我记得很多政客在竞选中失败，因为他们有时被称为“触发器”，我……
Although, I'm more of a Maynard Keynes school of...
虽然，我更像是梅纳德·凯恩斯学派……
"When the facts change, I change my opinion.
“当事实发生变化时，我就会改变我的看法。
What do you do, sir?" It sounds like a better OS to go by.
先生，你做什么？”这听起来像是一个更好的操作系统。
Lenny Rachitsky: It's awesome, because I'm extracting more of your algorithm of how you think about stuff.
Lenny Rachitsky：太棒了，因为我正在提取更多有关您如何看待事物的算法。
A few things you just shared are, ( 1.), you need to be in the details.
您刚刚分享的一些事情是：（1.）您需要关注细节。
This is thinking about to be successful as a first principles thinker is (B.), you need to be in the details in your case code.
这是作为第一原则思考者要成功的思考（B.），您需要关注案例代码中的细节。
In Elon's case, it's like, build the thing and be at the factory, sleeping on the floor.
在埃隆的例子中，就像是，建造了这个东西，然后在工厂里，睡在地板上。
As you said, he's very Adams based.
正如你所说，他是基于亚当斯的。
You're more digitally native.
你更加数字化。
And then also, don't be so reliant on some costs.
另外，不要太依赖某些成本。
Like you said in this Tobi Tornado case, "I know you've been working on this project, we're going to kill it, because it's not going to work better if we do that now versus this.
就像你在托比龙卷风案例中所说的那样，“我知道你一直在致力于这个项目，我们将终止它，因为如果我们现在这样做与现在相比，效果不会更好。
Just keep going, because we've been going." And then, coming back to the stuff you've shared previously is, analyze the path that you've been on, that the previous products and solutions have assumed the path dependence of them, and then don't look at what they've overfit potentially, that isn't correct.
继续前进，因为我们一直在前进。”然后，回到你之前分享的内容，分析你所走的路径，之前的产品和解决方案已经假设了它们的路径依赖，然后不要看它们潜在的过度拟合，这是不正确的。
Love it.
爱它。
Okay.
好的。
This actually is a good segue to something else that someone that you work with suggested I ask you, Farhan, your head of engineering.
这实际上是一个很好的延续，与你一起工作的人建议我问你，法尔汉，你的工程主管。
I asked him, "What's the best way to get a glimpse into Tobi's mind?" And it's actually along the lines of what you just described, which is, the question is just, what's the best way to disagree with you?
我问他：“了解托比思想的最好方法是什么？”实际上，这与您刚才描述的一致，即问题是，不同意您的观点的最佳方式是什么？
Tobi Lütke: I think just disagree with me.
Tobi Lütke：我认为只是不同意我的观点。
I immediately love it, honestly.
老实说，我立刻就喜欢上了它。
I really crave it.
我真的很渴望它。
It's very funny.
这很有趣。
I know how this really surprises people.
我知道这真的让人们感到惊讶。
And I actually appreciate it even more because it requires courage, and frankly, I actually do find that...
我实际上更欣赏它，因为它需要勇气，坦率地说，我确实发现......
But it also makes me immediately trust the person more, partly because I, first of all, think they will do what they think is right rather than what is convenient.
但这也让我立即更加信任这个人，部分原因是我首先认为他们会做他们认为正确的事情，而不是方便的事情。
Agreeing with a group tends to be much more convenient.
与一个团体达成一致往往要方便得多。
But more than that actually, that they're courageous enough to do it right then.
但实际上更重要的是，他们当时有足够的勇气去做这件事。
I think courage is really, really rare.
我觉得勇气真的非常非常难得。
I found a lot more high IQ in industry than courage.
我发现在工业界，智商比勇气高得多。
I found a lot more maybe even genius than courage.
我发现更多的也许是天才而不是勇气。
I like that.
我喜欢这样。
I wish it wouldn't require that.
我希望它不需要那样。
This is why I try to be very inviting of it.
这就是为什么我试图让它变得非常有吸引力。
Tobi Lütke: When someone disagrees with me, I tend to immediately stop and say, "Cool, let's figure out why there's disagreement." And it's almost never, I find, in the, "I just feel like we should do this differently." What I'm looking for is offer unstated foundational assumptions.
Tobi Lütke：当有人不同意我的观点时，我倾向于立即停下来说：“酷，让我们找出为什么会有分歧。”我发现，“我只是觉得我们应该以不同的方式做这件事。”我正在寻找的是提供未阐明的基本假设。
What is our divergence point?
我们的分歧点是什么？
Because you might be right.
因为你可能是对的。
In fact, people often are, when it gets to this point, I found.
事实上，我发现，当事情发展到这一步时，人们常常会这样。
Sometimes it's an unstated foundational assumption that I hold that is incorrect.
有时，我认为这是一个未阐明的基本假设，但它是不正确的。
People tell me and then I'm so glad we talked about it, because I will stop forever nagging on this thing because now I know we can't do it because of Sarbanes-Oxley or something like this.
人们告诉我，然后我很高兴我们谈论了这件事，因为我将永远停止在这件事上唠叨，因为现在我知道由于萨班斯-奥克斯利法案或类似的事情我们不能这样做。
It's just like, "Well, cool." My mental model of Sarbanes-Oxley, which is regulation for public companies, is not perfect.
就像，“嗯，很酷。”我对萨班斯-奥克斯利法案（针对上市公司的监管）的心智模型并不完美。
I have not in-depth studied all the details for it, so I will not consult this in my mind when I am saying, hey, we should solve the task at hand in a certain way.
我还没有深入研究它的所有细节，所以当我说，嘿，我们应该以某种方式解决手头的任务时，我不会在心里咨询这个。
So, this is very good.
所以，这是非常好的。
Tobi Lütke: How to disagree?
Tobi Lütke：如何表达不同意见？
I really like debate.
我真的很喜欢辩论。
I will play devil's advocate actively if everyone agrees on something.
如果每个人都同意某件事，我会积极唱反调。
Again, especially if a proposal is something that feels like I could have predicted would be a proposal before it got into the meeting and there was nothing surprising in it, I will make myself an end boss of a level and just say, "I'm going to say this is just not that good.
再说一次，特别是如果一个提案感觉像是我在进入会议之前就可以预测到的提案，并且没有什么令人惊讶的，我会让自己成为一个级别的最终老板，然后说：“我想说这不是那么好。
I think we could do way better." I want people to then argue more in-depth for the veracity of the decisions, and that leads to a form of disagreement.
我认为我们可以做得更好。”我希望人们能够更深入地争论决策的准确性，这会导致某种形式的分歧。
I think all these things end up building trust.
我认为所有这些事情最终都会建立信任。
Lenny Rachitsky: I like that that touches also on this idea of, again, maximizing potential, the potential of the teams, the potential of the employees
Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢这也涉及到最大化潜力、团队潜力、员工潜力的想法
Tobi Lütke: Because of course, the really important decisions, we don't talk about.
Tobi Lütke：当然，因为真正重要的决定我们不会谈论。
This is the most important thing.
这是最重要的。
Shopify probably makes...
Shopify 可能会...
What?...
什么？...
millions of decisions every day, like, write this code this way, yes, I'm going to add this unit test, maybe I'm skipping a unit test.
每天都有数百万个决定，比如，以这种方式编写代码，是的，我要添加这个单元测试，也许我会跳过单元测试。
Might be the difference between a future production audit.
可能是未来生产审核之间的区别。
Millions and millions of these tiny decisions.
数百万个这样的微小决定。
So, you're not hiring engineers primarily or accountants, you're hiring people who make excellent decisions, given their specialization and areas they're overseeing.
因此，您主要聘用的不是工程师或会计师，而是聘用能够做出出色决策的人员，考虑到他们的专业知识和所负责的领域。
And given that, decision making as a concept is actually really understudied, I find.
鉴于此，我发现决策作为一个概念实际上还没有得到充分研究。
Tobi Lütke: I think these are instances where we can just learn to make decision making together.
Tobi Lütke：我认为这些都是我们可以学习共同制定决策的例子。
Because I think while a lot of decisions are made independently, we are a product company, we are on a mission, and we want our product to feel like something that a single person made, in the same way how any author tries to write a book that clearly reads that it came from one mind.
因为我认为，虽然很多决定都是独立做出的，但我们是一家产品公司，我们肩负着使命，我们希望我们的产品感觉像是一个人做出的东西，就像任何作者试图写一本清楚地表明它来自一个人的书一样。
Because people can see and spot this, if this doesn't happen.
因为如果这种情况没有发生，人们可以看到并发现这一点。
You end up with something that looks like a television remote, where there's a Netflix button over here...
你最终会得到一个看起来像电视遥控器的东西，上面有一个 Netflix 按钮......
It's like you can reverse from the remote control.
就像你可以通过遥控器进行倒车一样。
That's important.
这很重要。
Tobi Lütke: Using these moments and also bringing decision making inwards to go and say, hey, let's have very efficient opportunities for as many people that can possibly get together, make decisions together, not as a democracy but with clear who needs to convince who.
Tobi Lütke：利用这些时刻，并将决策过程引入内部，我们可以说，嘿，让我们为尽可能多的人提供非常有效的机会，让他们能够聚集在一起，共同做出决策，不是作为民主国家，而是明确谁需要说服谁。
That because otherwise this ends up just taking way too long.
那是因为否则这最终会花费太长时间。
Give a opportunity for everyone to change my mind over Glenn's mind, and so on, is an excellent practice, I find.
我发现，给每个人一个机会来改变我对格伦的想法，等等，是一个很好的做法。
I think this is a more optimal way of going about it.
我认为这是一种更优化的处理方式。
Lenny Rachitsky: Speaking of disagreeing, it reminded me of a story I heard, about the Tobi Tornado actually, the way you operate that.
Lenny Rachitsky：说到不同意，这让我想起了我听到的一个故事，实际上是关于托比龙卷风的，你操作它的方式。
I love it.
我喜欢它。
It ends up being this interesting microcosm of your first principle's way of thinking.
它最终成为你的第一原则思维方式的有趣缩影。
The story is, I think you've said at one point that the best way to get people to give you insights is to say something they disagree with on the internet.
故事是这样的，我想你曾经说过，让人们向你提供见解的最好方法就是在互联网上说出他们不同意的事情。
Lenny Rachitsky: That's often the way you approach this is, you post in a Slack group, "Hey, I don't think this product is going to work, and here's why." And that ends up creating the most information for you.
Lenny Rachitsky：这通常是你处理这个问题的方式，你在 Slack 小组中发帖，“嘿，我认为这个产品不会起作用，这就是原因。”最终为您创造最多的信息。
Is there anything along those lines that might be helpful to share?
有什么类似的内容可以帮助分享吗？
Tobi Lütke: I don't think that's one of my better ways of doing that.
Tobi Lütke：我认为这不是我更好的方法之一。
I have to be somewhat careful.
我必须要小心一些。
The people I worked with a lot, I will do this, just because it's funny.
和我一起工作过很多次的人，我会这么做，只是因为这很有趣。
But even I can see that that would seriously stress out the interns.
但即使是我也能看出这会给实习生带来很大的压力。
Lenny Rachitsky: You guys have a lot of interns.
Lenny Rachitsky：你们有很多实习生。
I think you have 1,000 interns this coming year, is what Farhan shared.
Farhan 表示，我认为明年会有 1,000 名实习生。
Tobi Lütke: Yeah, we just started.
Tobi Lütke：是的，我们才刚刚开始。
I was in the office yesterday and it's absolutely full of interns.
昨天我在办公室，里面挤满了实习生。
It's great.
这很棒。
Lenny Rachitsky: Oh, man.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：哦，伙计。
Love interns, so much energy.
喜欢实习生，精力充沛。
This idea that you shared about building one product, building towards one vision, this actually reminds me of something that came up basically every time I had someone from Shopify on, which is this idea of a 100-year vision that you keep.
您分享的关于构建一款产品、朝着一个愿景迈进的想法，实际上让我想起了每次我与 Shopify 的某人合作时都会出现的事情，这就是您保留的 100 年愿景的想法。
I don't know of any other company that operates in this way, where the founder has this 100-year vision of where the product needs to go and working backwards from that.
我不知道还有哪家公司以这种方式运营，其创始人对产品需要走向何方有 100 年的愿景，并以此为基础进行逆向工作。
Lenny Rachitsky: Can you just speak to that, of that way of operating, why you find that helpful, how that actually works?
Lenny Rachitsky：您能谈谈这种运作方式吗？为什么您认为这种方式很有帮助，它实际上是如何运作的？
Tobi Lütke: I talk about look in the future and then think backwards a lot.
Tobi Lütke：我谈论的是展望未来，然后进行很多回顾。
What would we want to have done 20 years ago on this, or 10 or 5 years ago?
20 年前、10 或 5 年前我们希望在这方面做什么？
What's the decision our future selves would want us to make, is useful.
我们未来的自己希望我们做出什么决定，这是有用的。
I find future casting to be generally extremely valuable.
我发现未来的选角通常非常有价值。
I definitely did not build Shopify to flip.
我建立 Shopify 绝对不是为了翻转。
I had lots of opportunities to sell Shopify to various people.
我有很多机会向不同的人销售 Shopify。
I didn't consider it, because it's just too interesting of a journey and I think that's too...
我没有考虑它，因为这是一次太有趣的旅程，我认为那太......
If a endpoint all companies is a convergence on a set of four or five people who can afford them, that just creates too much of a monoculture, I think, in thinking.
我认为，如果所有公司的一个终点都是由四五个能负担得起的人组成的集合，那么这只会在思维上造成太多的单一文化。
Tobi Lütke: I like that Shopify is different.
Tobi Lütke：我喜欢 Shopify 的与众不同。
I think this is good.
我认为这很好。
I think it's a terrible place to work for many, many, many people.
我认为对于很多很多人来说，这是一个糟糕的工作场所。
It's the best place in the world to work for some people.
对于某些人来说，这是世界上最好的工作场所。
That's so good.
那太好了。
That's what we want, I think.
我想这就是我们想要的。
We want more of this.
我们想要更多这样的东西。
We want people to be able to window-shop for a place where they can be enormously successful, because the place's set of beliefs just fits you like a glove.
我们希望人们能够通过逛街寻找一个可以取得巨大成功的地方，因为这个地方的一套信念就像手套一样适合你。
Tobi Lütke: 100 years.
Tobi Lütke：100 周年。
We have very long-term plans.
我们有非常长期的计划。
100 years, you can't talk about this software product, but you can talk about the mission itself, whatever things that will survive for 80 years that are left on this particular timeframe.
100 年，你不能谈论这个软件产品，但你可以谈论任务本身，无论在这个特定的时间框架内剩下的 80 年的东西。
Entrepreneurship is just precious.
创业精神是弥足珍贵的。
Shopify exists, basically you make entrepreneurship more common.
Shopify 的存在，基本上让创业变得更加普遍。
That is the thing we wanted to cause in the world.
这就是我们想要在世界上引起的事情。
We have had, I think, success doing this already, but again, there's no speed limit and no stopping point for this.
我认为我们已经成功地做到了这一点，但同样，这没有速度限制，也没有停止点。
As I keep saying, the word's unbelievably path dependent.
正如我一直说的，这个词令人难以置信地依赖于路径。
And therefore, if we are part of a path, we can cause it to be more in adherence to the things that we value and would like to see.
因此，如果我们是一条道路的一部分，我们就可以使其更加符合我们所珍视和希望看到的事物。
This is the wonderful thing about company building.
这就是公司建设的美妙之处。
They can have lasting impact.
它们可以产生持久的影响。
Tobi Lütke: We are making decisions based on all the things that we can do.
Tobi Lütke：我们根据我们能做的所有事情做出决策。
What are the things that will be most long-term valuable for the long-term pursuits we are on, and how can we normalize entrepreneurship?
对于我们的长期追求来说，什么是最有价值的？我们如何才能使创业常态化？
It's a thing that's really important to me, just because people don't spend enough time on it.
这对我来说非常重要，只是因为人们没有花足够的时间在上面。
It's all economics.
这都是经济学。
Our living entirely depends on businesses.
我们的生活完全依赖于生意。
We are all part and tag of an environment that is extremely entrepreneurial and actually celebrates entrepreneurship as a courageous act and a glorious act even.
我们都是这个极具创业精神的环境的一部分和标签，并且实际上将创业视为一种勇敢的行为，甚至是一种光荣的行为。
Tobi Lütke: But that's not true in most of the world.
Tobi Lütke：但世界上大部分地区情况并非如此。
In fact, most people never encounter anyone who engages in doing that.
事实上，大多数人从未遇到过这样做的人。
It's not something people see as one of their options.
人们不认为这是他们的选择之一。
I want us to make these choices.
我希望我们做出这些选择。
And I think the long-term focus matters.
我认为长期关注很重要。
It's also really powerful for decision making.
它对于决策也非常强大。
And I know this is potentially intuitive to most, but also rarely practiced.
我知道这对大多数人来说可能是直观的，但也很少实践。
You've had a lot of people from Stripe on here.
这里有很多来自 Stripe 的人。
Stripe and Shopify have had a very long-term partnership.
Stripe 和 Shopify 有着非常长期的合作伙伴关系。
Stripe and Shopify had potentially the most valuable partnership, or at least one of the top ones in history, of technology, because we were both very small companies and we decided, hey, let's work on an assumption that both of us are going to win our markets, and work together.
Stripe 和 Shopify 可能是最有价值的合作伙伴关系，或者至少是历史上最顶尖的技术合作伙伴关系之一，因为我们都是非常小的公司，我们决定，嘿，让我们假设我们双方都将赢得市场，并共同努力。
So, Stripe's for payments and we're allowed a part of Stripe and so on.
所以，Stripe 用于支付，我们被允许使用 Stripe 的一部分等等。
Tobi Lütke: When you're in a partnership like this, you play basically iterated prisoner's dilemma.
Tobi Lütke：当你处于这样的合作伙伴关系中时，你基本上会陷入重复的囚徒困境。
Every instance, every turn you can make a choice: coordinate or defect, defecting if the other person collaborates, collaborator effect.
每一个实例、每一个回合你都可以做出选择：协调或背叛，如果其他人合作则背叛，合作者效应。
If both collaborate, everyone gets a point.
如果双方合作，每个人都会得到一分。
If one defects and the other one collaborates, you get a lot of points, all at one moment.
如果一个人背叛，另一个人合作，你就会立刻获得很多积分。
Being a good partner in business is like this corporate marshmallow test that companies tend to fail in a very funny way.
在商业中成为一个好的合作伙伴就像这个公司棉花糖测试一样，公司往往会以一种非常有趣的方式失败。
Tobi Lütke: If you see the videos of kids doing actual actual marshmallow tests, the smart ones actually turn the chair around, look away from the marshmallow, and sit on their hands, and just go vibrating.
Tobi Lütke：如果你看到孩子们进行实际棉花糖测试的视频，聪明的孩子实际上会转动椅子，将目光从棉花糖上移开，坐在他们的手上，然后开始振动。
Because they know it's the right thing to wait for getting two marshmallows in the future, but man, if they just look at a marshmallow, they'll just eat it.
因为他们知道等待将来得到两块棉花糖是正确的事情，但是天啊，如果他们只是看一个棉花糖，他们就会把它吃掉。
Most CEOs, most companies can't even successfully do that and just engage in pulling future profits forward at a discount or even defecting on partnerships that would be much more long-term valuable.
大多数首席执行官、大多数公司甚至无法成功做到这一点，而只能以折扣价拉动未来利润，甚至放弃更具有长期价值的合作伙伴关系。
Tobi Lütke: If you're talking about long timeframes, like 100 years, there is no question.
Tobi Lütke：如果你谈论的是很长的时间范围，比如 100 年，这是毫无疑问的。
But clearly, the correct way to play iterated prisoner's dilemma is coordinate for both sides.
但显然，迭代囚徒困境的正确玩法是双方协调。
It's way more valuable doing that over long periods of time than any momentary defection could possibly be convenient at a moment.
长期这样做比暂时的背叛更有价值。
It's a huge amount of product decisions.
这是大量的产品决策。
When we are deciding roadmap, end up being very influenced by this, because I get pitches for things we should do and why don't we do this kind of change to the system, there's so much money in it, and all these kind of things.
当我们决定路线图时，最终会受到很大的影响，因为我得到了关于我们应该做的事情的建议，为什么我们不对系统进行这种改变，其中有很多钱，以及所有这些事情。
I'm like, cool, but almost always come in a form of putting future profits forward at a discount.
我觉得，很酷，但几乎总是以折扣价预付未来利润的形式出现。
Tobi Lütke: But we have a long time horizon.
Tobi Lütke：但我们的视野很长。
Let's not take the discount, let's...
我们不要打折了，我们...
Also, you often compromise the entire business after a while because you end up just...
此外，你经常会在一段时间后损害整个业务，因为你最终只是......
Your customers notice if you're going into value extraction.
您的客户会注意到您是否正在进行价值提取。
The best companies, I believe, at least from a perspective of a leader, resemble some kind of cockpit, or maybe a room full of dials or levers for monetization.
我相信，至少从领导者的角度来看，最好的公司就像某种驾驶舱，或者可能是一个充满货币化旋钮或杠杆的房间。
My job is adding as many of these levers as possible to the room, and then not pulling any of them.
我的工作是在房间里添加尽可能多的杠杆，然后不拉动其中任何一个。
Because I think we do best if we are on the same side of a table of our customers and we had them become entrepreneurs, which is a mission, and we want to support them to be more successful, which is the business model we are in.
因为我认为，如果我们与客户站在同一边，让他们成为企业家，这是我们的使命，我们希望支持他们取得更大的成功，这就是我们所处的商业模式，我们会做得最好。
We get a very, very small stake of the sales in our monetization system.
我们在货币化系统中获得了非常非常小的销售额份额。
And therefore, we are incentivized to make everyone as successful as possible.
因此，我们有动力让每个人都尽可能成功。
Tobi Lütke: Again, when I get a PowerPoint from investment bankers or so, where they tell me I have enormous pricing power and I could massively change the prices, I'm like, "Yeah, but I'd leave Shopify if that happens to me, so how is that good?" He's just like, "Why?" It just goes like that.
Tobi Lütke：同样，当我从投资银行家等那里得到一份 PowerPoint 时，他们告诉我我拥有巨大的定价能力并且我可以大幅改变价格，我会想，“是的，但如果这种情况发生在我身上，我会离开 Shopify，那有什么好处呢？”他只是想，“为什么？”事情就是这样。
Lenny Rachitsky: There's a quote that you wrote somewhere that, to me, identifies this point so succinctly, "On a long enough timeline, playing positive-sum games with your customers is the ultimate growth hack." Yeah, beautiful.
Lenny Rachitsky：您在某处写过一句话，对我来说，它非常简洁地指出了这一点：“在足够长的时间内，与客户玩正和游戏是最终的增长黑客。”是啊，美丽。
Tobi Lütke: I think that's pretty piffy and it's also just...
Tobi Lütke：我认为这非常棘手，而且......
Try to argue with it.
尝试与之争论。
Tobi Lütke: Positive-sum games have incredible returns, especially in the worlds of software, where you can experience exponentials very easily.
Tobi Lütke：正和游戏具有令人难以置信的回报，尤其是在软件领域，您可以轻松体验指数增长。
I see company building as...
我认为公司建设...
I wish there would be better analogy than chess, because chess is a game of perfect information, which is totally incorrect.
我希望有比国际象棋更好的类比，因为国际象棋是完美信息的游戏，这是完全错误的。
But one thing which I like about chess as an analogy for business is that it basically is two games, that you have to be good at at both.
但我喜欢将国际象棋比作商业的一件事是，它基本上是两种游戏，你必须擅长两种游戏。
There's a positional game that you learn: Develop your pieces, gain influence by your pieces over the board.
您可以学习一种位置游戏：发展您的棋子，通过您的棋子在棋盘上获得影响力。
That's really, really important.
这真的非常非常重要。
And then there's tactics, which you learn tactic training.
然后是战术，你可以通过战术训练来学习。
You go get a puzzle trainer and you drill tactics and you learn the intuition to sports tactics, sense them.
你去找一个益智训练师，练习战术，学习运动战术的直觉，感受它们。
Both of them are actually super independent of each other.
他们俩实际上是超级独立的。
Tobi Lütke: The business world only talks about tactics.
Tobi Lütke：商业世界只讲策略。
It only talks about the conversion of we did this thing.
它只讲我们做这件事的转化。
We did an A/B test and we changed the color of blue, and conversion red went up.
我们做了 A/B 测试，我们改变了蓝色的颜色，并且转换红色上升了。
We lionize the easy hack.
我们推崇简单的破解方法。
I don't think that's important, honestly.
老实说，我认为这并不重要。
You need to be good enough at tactics to not go out of business.
你需要足够擅长策略才能不倒闭。
You can't get margin code, sure.
当然，您无法获得保证金代码。
But the sum total of all the value of a potential tactics that you could employ stays with you if you are actually are doing the positional game.
但是，如果您实际上正在进行阵地游戏，那么您可以采用的潜在策略的所有价值总和就与您同在。
Tobi Lütke: The positional game is like, what is the territory on the map that you are taking?
Tobi Lütke：定位游戏就像是，你正在占领的地图上的领土是什么？
What role do you play?
你扮演什么角色？
How much trust do you have of merchants?
您对商家的信任度有多少？
Do merchants want more from you or less?
商家对你的要求是多还是少？
Are you the kind of thing they're trying to optimize out of their software spend, or the one that they ask to subsume all other software spend?
您是那种他们试图从软件支出中进行优化的人，还是他们要求包含所有其他软件支出的人？
Do they rely on you?
他们依赖你吗？
Are you part of a team, or are you used as a tool in the toolbox, usually forgotten, sometimes coming out when certain task is being done?
您是团队的一员，还是被用作工具箱中的工具，通常被遗忘，有时在完成某些任务时才出现？
What does your product cover?
您的产品涵盖什么？
What industries are you addressing?
您针对哪些行业？
And so on, so on, so on.
等等，等等，等等。
This is the positional game.
这就是位置游戏。
How well do pieces fit together?
各部分的配合情况如何？
Do people like relying even deeper on you?
人们喜欢更加依赖你吗？
Tobi Lütke: If you do that well, the tactics are yours and you can hire a lot of people who are extraordinarily good at spotting tactics and using them.
Tobi Lütke：如果你做得好，战术就是你的，你可以雇佣很多非常擅长发现战术并使用它们的人。
But if you do it too much, you end up extracting through tactics the entirety of the value that you have created and that is yours to take through a positional game.
但如果你做得太多，你最终会通过战术提取你所创造的全部价值，而这些价值是你在阵地游戏中所获得的。
And if you do that, you have nothing left in the tank.
如果你这样做了，你的坦克里就什么也没有了。
That's for companies that we all see, that just got to a point and then just fade.
对于我们都看到的公司来说，这就是这样，它们到了一定程度，然后就消失了。
Those are the companies that got tacticked out of their position.
这些公司都是因为策略而失去了自己的位置。
Lenny Rachitsky: The skill, obviously, is finding the balance between these two things of short-term, not get margin calls, as you described, but also think ahead.
Lenny Rachitsky：显然，技巧是在短期这两件事之间找到平衡，而不是像你所描述的那样接到追加保证金通知，但也要提前思考。
Lenny Rachitsky: Is there any kind of heuristic for founders listening to this who are like, "How do I do this?
Lenny Rachitsky：对于那些听了这句话的创始人来说，有没有什么启发式的说法，“我该怎么做？
How much should I be thinking about the future versus now?", I guess?
与现在相比，我应该考虑多少未来？”，我猜？
How do you try to create this pie chart of driving goals immediately and show investors we're killing it, while also thinking ahead?
您如何尝试立即创建这个驱动目标的饼图，并向投资者展示我们正在杀死它，同时也提前思考？
Tobi Lütke: Is there a good heuristic?
Tobi Lütke：有什么好的启发法吗？
Objective number one is: Don't die.
第一个目标是：不要死。
Again, in the end, for companies that become historic companies are the ones which did not die.
再说一遍，最终，那些成为历史的公司都是那些没有消亡的公司。
It also sounds very basic, but actually it's more actionable than it might seem.
这听起来也很基本，但实际上它比看起来更可行。
Past that point, I would argue: Just focus on the positional game.
过了这一点，我会争辩说：只关注位置游戏。
I think this is where a bit of a discrepancy of the founder and the rest of the company sometimes lies.
我认为这就是创始人和公司其他成员有时存在一些差异的地方。
I think the founders create finite, winnable games for people, that are very much serving the infinite game of developing, that the mission implies, the quality of position on the board.
我认为创始人为人们创造了有限的、可获胜的游戏，这在很大程度上服务于开发无限的游戏，即使命所暗示的，董事会位置的质量。
Tobi Lütke: By the way, it's an infinite board.
Tobi Lütke：顺便说一下，这是一块无限棋盘。
Just picture the chess board as the initial terrain, but there's, I don't know, fog on the board and it's a terrain that's much larger that you will explore over time.
只需将棋盘想象为初始地形，但我不知道棋盘上有雾，而且随着时间的推移，您将探索的地形要大得多。
I think that's the most prettiest way of mentally thinking about the experience of building a company.
我认为这是在头脑中思考创建公司的经历的最漂亮的方式。
It's an exploration and a collaborative inquiry into a question that is implied by the mission.
这是对使命所隐含的问题的探索和协作调查。
And you will get to explore how correct your mission is and how good your decision making is along the way.
在此过程中，您将探索您的使命有多正确以及您的决策有多好。
And you get to learn a lot, and this is why I think it's a valuable thing to do.
你会学到很多东西，这就是为什么我认为这是一件有价值的事情。
Tobi Lütke: But they often, the founders, and the mission of a company are in alignment, but they are, again, non-quantifiable things.
Tobi Lütke：但创始人和公司的使命往往是一致的，但它们又是不可量化的东西。
They are pursuits.
他们是追求。
Maybe as time horizons that go past, all of our time horizons of our careers, therefore that makes it hard for people to care deeply yet.
也许随着时间跨度的过去，我们职业生涯的所有时间跨度都过去了，因此人们很难深入关心。
But they do care about the instances, the games along the way, the that have to be done to explore a part of a map, the tactics that have to be executed.
但他们确实关心实例、一路上的游戏、探索地图的一部分必须做的事情、必须执行的策略。
Lenny Rachitsky: I'm not going to take us here, but I know you're a big fan of this book, Finite and Infinite Games.
Lenny Rachitsky：我不打算带我们来这里，但我知道你是《有限与无限游戏》这本书的忠实粉丝。
I actually had it once at a book club and it blew my mind open.
事实上，我曾经在读书俱乐部读过它，它让我大开眼界。
I'm going to link to it.
我将链接到它。
People should check it out.
人们应该检查一下。
You've talked about this on another podcast.
您在另一个播客上谈到过这个问题。
I'm not going to .
我不会。
Tobi Lütke: Yeah, it's a lovely book.
Tobi Lütke：是的，这是一本可爱的书。
James Carse did an incredible, underappreciated...
詹姆斯·卡斯 (James Carse) 做了一件令人难以置信的、但未被充分赏识的事情……
I think they essentially wrote one of the best business books.
我认为他们基本上写了最好的商业书籍之一。
They is trying to write a hard philosophy book.
他们正试图写一本艰难的哲学书。
I don't know if it works for its intended purpose, but I think there's more value in what he actually accomplished.
我不知道它是否达到了预期的目的，但我认为他实际完成的事情有更多的价值。
Maybe, sadly, it may be that he didn't know before he died, which would be very sad.
也许，可悲的是，也许他死前还不知道，这会很悲伤。
Lenny Rachitsky: It's a little hard to read for people...
Lenny Rachitsky：这对于人们来说有点难以阅读......
Lenny Rachitsky: ...
莱尼·拉奇茨基：……
so just stick with it and just try to wrap your head around what he's trying to say, is my advice.
所以，坚持下去，试着理解他想说的话，这是我的建议。
Tobi Lütke: I think reading...
Tobi Lütke：我认为阅读......
I don't know how many it is, but...
我不知道有多少，但是...
the first couple of chapters really helps you get your arms around the story, his insight.
前几章确实可以帮助你了解这个故事和他的见解。
The rest of the book are examples of his ideas applied.
本书的其余部分是他的想法应用的例子。
My takeaway from reading his examples is that he did not fully appreciate the insight of his own idea.
阅读他的例子后我的收获是，他没有完全理解自己想法的洞察力。
It just ends up being very locally limited and very narrow-focused.
它最终会受到非常局部的限制并且焦点非常狭窄。
It's a much grander idea than I think he really...
这是一个比我想象的更宏伟的想法，他真的......
This is why I say I don't think he fully appreciated quality of his own idea, which...
这就是为什么我说我认为他没有完全欣赏自己想法的质量，这......
Lenny Rachitsky: I think we need a Tobi version of this book, with a foreword, and...
Lenny Rachitsky：我认为我们需要这本书的 Tobi 版本，带有前言，并且......
Tobi Lütke: ...
托比·吕特克：...
wrote a book of a similar title.
写了一本类似标题的书。
I've actually never gotten around to read it, but I think he would be very good at interpreting this if that's what he did.
事实上我从来没有抽出时间去读它，但我认为如果他这么做的话，他会非常擅长解释这一点。
Lenny Rachitsky: That's what it sounds like.
Lenny Rachitsky：听起来就是这样。
I feel like his book is that book, written in a different way.
我觉得他的书就是那本书，只是以不同的方式写的。
Lenny Rachitsky: I want to come back to something you talked about, which is focusing on entrepreneurship and the merchants that you all work with.
Lenny Rachitsky：我想回到您谈到的话题，重点是创业精神和与你们合作的商人。
To me, this is another example of maximizing human potential.
对我来说，这是最大限度发挥人类潜力的另一个例子。
The way I think about this, people always talk about Y Combinator and Stanford and all these places that create all these companies and founders.
在我看来，人们总是谈论 Y Combinator 和斯坦福大学以及创建所有这些公司和创始人的所有这些地方。
If you think about it, Shopify does this orders of magnitude beyond, and I don't think you guys get enough credit for that, the amount of businesses you create, the amount of lives you change.
如果你仔细想想，Shopify 所做的事情超出了这个数量级，我认为你们没有得到足够的认可，你们创造的企业数量，你们改变的生活数量。
Tobi Lütke: That's because we don't want the credit.
Tobi Lütke：那是因为我们不想要这种功劳。
That's the point.
这就是重点。
Tobi Lütke: I mean, maybe if you wanted it, you could also not get it, but we don't need to explore that because we actually, literally don't want the credit.
Tobi Lütke：我的意思是，也许如果你想要它，你也可能得不到它，但我们不需要探索这一点，因为我们实际上不想要这种功劳。
Shopify is a company that pushes from behind.
Shopify 是一家后来居上的公司。
We don't want to be written into the story.
我们不想被写入故事。
We want to just...
我们只想...
Tobi Lütke: ...
托比·吕特克：...
want to be written into the story, we want to just kind of have you do your thing.
想要被写入故事，我们想让你做你的事情。
There's just too much grandeur in wanting to front it all.
想要面对这一切实在是太伟大了。
This is also what caused us to go and help people build their own things rather than start with a marketplace that everyone gets to lease a little component of at prices that corresponds to magically exactly your margin, as this usually goes in marketplaces.
这也是我们去帮助人们建造自己的东西的原因，而不是从一个每个人都可以以与你的利润完全对应的价格租赁一小部分的市场开始，就像市场上通常发生的那样。
And so yeah, I think we don't want it.
所以，是的，我想我们不想要它。
I'm proud of it, but that's intrinsic.
我为此感到自豪，但这是内在的。
I don't need very extrinsic appreciation for it, I suppose.
我想我不需要非常外在的欣赏。
There's millions, millions and millions of people that use Shopify daily and that represents the business and it causes major amount of employment around the world actually, definitely in North America specifically and Europe.
每天有数以百万计的人使用 Shopify，这代表了该业务，它实际上在世界各地创造了大量就业机会，尤其是在北美和欧洲。
And so I think that's really gratifying.
所以我认为这真的很令人高兴。
I'm sure there's a way of saying that many of us businesses might actually have existed without Shopify.
我确信有一种说法可以说，我们许多企业实际上可能在没有 Shopify 的情况下存在。
Tobi Lütke: I also think you can make a case that a good number exists because of Shopify, because what we've observed is that this was actually, it's my favorite thing in the entire Shopify journey that we sort of rigorously determined, which is that because I really, really, really prioritize good UX, legible interfaces.
Tobi Lütke：我还认为你可以证明 Shopify 存在大量的数据，因为我们观察到，这实际上是整个 Shopify 旅程中我最喜欢的事情，我们严格确定了这一点，因为我真的、真的、真的优先考虑良好的用户体验、清晰的界面。
You can tame enormous complexity with great UX in a way that makes sense to people.
您可以通过出色的用户体验以对人们有意义的方式来应对巨大的复杂性。
I think this is actually almost a moral obligation to do for software because when software goes bad, it makes people feel dumb and machines do not get to negatively influence people in my mind.
我认为这实际上几乎是软件的道德义务，因为当软件变坏时，它会让人们感到愚蠢，而在我看来，机器不会对人们产生负面影响。
That is the inversion of the priority of the hierarchy of how machines are tools wielded by people to be more powerful at the things that they're already great at than they might imagine.
这是机器作为工具的优先级的倒置，人们使用机器来在他们已经擅长的事情上比他们想象的更强大。
That's when this all needs to fit together, but beyond the moral point, which is 10 years, and you could definitely take the other side of what we have determined is that every single time we make a complex thing simpler.
到那时，所有这些都需要整合在一起，但超出了道德点，即 10 年，你绝对可以采取我们所确定的另一面，即每次我们都将复杂的事情变得更简单。
It is actually that more businesses will exist on a platform.
实际上是平台上会存在更多的业务。
Tobi Lütke: So I think this is intuitive or at least directional, but sometimes people are not like, "Well, don't you just need to have all these features?" This is the RFP view of a world of software, right?
Tobi Lütke：所以我认为这是直观的，或者至少是有方向性的，但有时人们不会说，“好吧，你不需要拥有所有这些功能吗？”这就是 RFP 对软件世界的看法，对吧？
"Don't you need to just have all the features then people can implement their plan?" Well, no. Think about the mental state and entrepreneurship entrepreneurs, they are, I mean especially if you're first entrepreneurs, they're unsophisticated.
“难道你不需要拥有所有功能，人们就可以实施他们的计划吗？”嗯，不。想想企业家的精神状态和创业精神，我的意思是，特别是如果你是第一个企业家，他们是不成熟的。
They don't know what to do.
他们不知道该怎么办。
They're kind of scared.
他们有点害怕。
By the way, engaging in building something again is an act of pure courage and usually one which is very hard to hide from others.
顺便说一句，再次参与建设是一种纯粹的勇气行为，通常很难向别人隐瞒。
The people around you will know that you're doing this thing.
你周围的人会知道你在做这件事。
Ask any entrepreneur.
问问任何一位企业家。
The amount of people who tell you to not do this is actually stunning.
告诉你不要这样做的人数量实际上是惊人的。
People do not want people to just step out of a box that exists that they sort of explain to themselves around them and have a chance of reaching higher because that would sort of invalidate their own life story in some meaningful way.
人们不希望人们走出一个他们在周围向自己解释的盒子，并有机会达到更高的高度，因为这会以某种有意义的方式使他们自己的生活故事无效。
Tobi Lütke: So there's actually a whole lot of nay saying that discourages people already, which is not super helpful.
Tobi Lütke：所以实际上有很多反对的说法已经让人们泄气了，这并不是很有帮助。
So now you have a situation where people are telling you to quit potentially, you don't have a lot of money presumably, you're asking yourself, are you even doing the right thing?
所以现在你面临的情况是，人们告诉你可能要戒烟，你可能没有很多钱，你会问自己，你是否在做正确的事情？
Hopefully there's some elements of encouragement.
希望有一些鼓励的成分。
Hopefully there's a passion.
希望有热情。
Hopefully you're trying to create a thing.
希望你正在尝试创造一个东西。
Then comes to a situation that stuns you in some way, somewhere where suddenly the software starts talking about APIs where this is something you've never encountered in your life before or that just the option that you think it should have on the text configuration screen doesn't make sense given what we know about local taxes and so on.
然后会出现一种让你震惊的情况，突然间，软件开始谈论 API，这是你以前从未遇到过的事情，或者考虑到我们对当地税收等的了解，你认为文本配置屏幕上应该有的选项没有意义。
Here's the thing that happens.
这就是发生的事情。
So the beautiful thing with Shopify is there's basically no tax configuration screen.
因此，Shopify 的美妙之处在于基本上没有税务配置屏幕。
It's just correct.
这是正确的。
The amazing thing about software is we can actually just overtake this piece of complexity.
软件的神奇之处在于我们实际上可以克服这一复杂性。
Tobi Lütke: We know what the taxes are everywhere and we are just doing it for you.
Tobi Lütke：我们知道各地都有哪些税收，我们只是为您做这件事。
You don't have to think about taxes.
您不必考虑税收。
In this case we have someone encountered something that stunned them, that stopped them in their tracks.
在这个例子中，我们有人遇到了一些让他们震惊的事情，让他们停下了脚步。
On the wrong day, what that means, it's like they are going to close a browser and they say, "You know what?
在错误的一天，这意味着什么，就像他们要关闭浏览器一样，他们说：“你知道吗？
Fuck it.
他妈的。
I'm not cut out for this." Or, "This piece of software I use sucks and it's too dumb for understanding the thing I have in my head," or something else.
我不适合做这个。”或者，“我使用的这个软件很糟糕，它太愚蠢了，无法理解我脑子里的东西”，或者其他什么。
Everyone has a different rendering of the same thing, but just like progress stops.
每个人对同一件事都有不同的呈现，但就像进步停止了一样。
It is not just the businesses that shouldn't exist anyway that stop in this way.
以这种方式停止的不仅仅是那些无论如何都不应该存在的企业。
In fact, it's actually, and this is again what the data says, so many businesses get very close to this point many, many times.
事实上，这又是数据所说的，很多企业很多很多次都非常接近这一点。
I can tell you Shopify did many times and I have more tools on entrepreneurial journey than most.
我可以告诉你 Shopify 做过很多次，而且我在创业过程中拥有的工具比大多数人都多。
I'm a computer programmer and I love those things.
我是一名计算机程序员，我喜欢这些东西。
You tell me I can spend 14 hours programming for the next couple of years.
你告诉我我可以在接下来的几年里花 14 个小时编程。
I'm like, "Holy shit, let's go."
我想，“天哪，我们走吧。”
Tobi Lütke: Most people aren't like that.
Tobi Lütke：大多数人都不是这样的。
So I've had unfair advantages that allowed me to overcome very technical climbs on this learning curve, but I know that's like most people can't have these advantages and therefore will churn out of a test.
因此，我拥有不公平的优势，使我能够克服学习曲线上非常技术性的攀爬，但我知道大多数人无法拥有这些优势，因此会在测试中流失。
And so in other words, lowering complexity, making good UX, creating software that just autopilots taxes or payments or any of these kinds of things, fraud, actually causes more entrepreneurship.
换句话说，降低复杂性、打造良好的用户体验、创建自动驾驶税收或付款或任何此类事情、欺诈的软件，实际上会带来更多的创业精神。
That is the best thing, the best answer to the most important question of my life that I've encountered because up to this point it was an intuition that doing the Shopify thing would be valuable in absolute sense, in a hundred-year sense.
这是最好的事情，是我一生中遇到的最重要问题的最佳答案，因为到目前为止，我的直觉是，做 Shopify 的事情在绝对意义上、在一百年的意义上都是有价值的。
Afterwards I knew, right?
后来我就知道了，对吗？
And so that also just means now seeing things that are overly complex or shouldn't even be there, it's just physically painful because I know, it's like all these business that are trying to get somewhere and could exist and could now employ people and delight customers just died along the way because of something we did wrong or poorly and so on.
因此，这也意味着现在看到的东西过于复杂或什至不应该存在，这只是身体上的痛苦，因为我知道，就像所有这些试图达到某个目标并且可能存在并且现在可以雇用人员并取悦客户的企业都因为我们做错或做得不好等等而在途中死去。
And so this is a great source of energy for me to keep going.
所以这是我继续前进的巨大能量来源。
Lenny Rachitsky: I feel that, I feel that pain of the idea of anytime a button's broken or it's not as...
Lenny Rachitsky：我觉得，每当一个按钮坏了或者它不像……那样的想法时，我都会感到痛苦。
the button's wrong color and more people would be converting means that you're not creating as many businesses, many entrepreneurs.
按钮的颜色错误，更多的人会转换，这意味着你没有创建那么多的企业、更多的企业家。
The feeling you described of being scared to launch something, I exactly felt that when I started the newsletter.
你所描述的那种害怕推出某样东西的感觉，当我开始写时事通讯时，我确实有这种感觉。
And my solution to that as I launched it is, "I'm just launching this as an experiment.
当我启动它时，我的解决方案是：“我只是将其作为一个实验来启动。
We'll see where it goes, just don't worry about it.
我们会看看它会去哪里，只是不用担心。
I might blog once in a while." And that really helped just lowering the stakes and I could see how just things like that and advice that can help someone get over that hump.
我可能偶尔会写博客。”这确实有助于降低风险，我可以看到这样的事情和建议可以帮助人们克服困难。
Tobi Lütke: Yes, and I think this is an under explored thing in the word of UX.
Tobi Lütke：是的，我认为这是用户体验领域尚未得到充分探索的事情。
Random example, I was absolutely delighted by, maybe TikTok has the same thing, I don't know, but I was posting a video to Instagram and it allowed me to run a try run of the reel.
随便举个例子，我非常高兴，也许 TikTok 也有同样的东西，我不知道，但我在 Instagram 上发布了一段视频，它让我可以试运行一下卷轴。
It just seems like a new feature and just saying it shows it to a couple hundred people out of network and if they like it then it's going to post to my profile.
这看起来像是一个新功能，只是说它向网络外的几百人展示了它，如果他们喜欢它，那么它就会发布到我的个人资料中。
I'm like, "I don't need that." But I thought that was one of the more...
我想，“我不需要那个。”但我认为这是其中之一......
I honestly just closed Instagram and was like, "Holy shit, this is probably one of the most profound insightful pieces of software I've encountered.
老实说，我刚刚关闭了 Instagram，心想，“天哪，这可能是我遇到过的最深刻、最有洞察力的软件之一。
And as a connoisseur of good ideas, I've never had this as a valuable thing." It feels like a step function upgrade to the traditional A-B test as a concept because it's so understandable and I'm like, "What else in the world should have try runs that run out of network?" Basically everything, isn't it?
作为一个好创意的鉴赏家，我从来不认为这是一件有价值的事情。”这感觉就像传统 A-B 测试概念的一步功能升级，因为它非常容易理解，我想，“世界上还有什么应该尝试在网络之外运行？”基本上一切都一样，不是吗？
Tobi Lütke: This is an amazing thing.
Tobi Lütke：这是一件了不起的事情。
Like I said, the rarest thing in the world, it's not even creativity or genius, it's courage.
就像我说的，世界上最稀有的东西，它甚至不是创造力或天才，而是勇气。
So let's lower the net amount of courage needed.
因此，让我们降低所需的勇气净值。
Honestly, that's one of those things you can probably run an entire career or reinvent an industry on.
老实说，这是你可以经营整个职业生涯或重塑一个行业的事情之一。
These things unfurl into incredible amounts of value if you really pursue them and come at them from first principles rather than how can I do the things I want to do anyway slightly better because of insight.
如果你真正追求它们并从首要原则出发，而不是因为洞察力而如何更好地做我想做的事情，那么这些东西就会展现出令人难以置信的价值。
That's good and people should always do it, but not usually where most of the value ends up becoming, like manifests when a new idea comes around.
这很好，人们应该总是这样做，但通常不是大部分价值最终变成的样子，就像新想法出现时所体现的那样。
So I talk radically about an Instagram feature.
所以我从根本上谈论 Instagram 的功能。
That's a weird thing to do, but I was actually just really to delighted because again, it just came up a few days ago.
这是一件奇怪的事情，但实际上我真的很高兴，因为几天前它又出现了。
Lenny Rachitsky: I love this thread of courage.
Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢这种勇气。
The example you gave reminds me also of I feel like going on a dating app at a different city for the first time is another example of this where it's a dry run, nobody knows you.
你给出的例子也让我想起我第一次在不同的城市使用约会应用程序是另一个例子，这是一次演练，没有人认识你。
Tobi Lütke: But even then, shouldn't there be like, "Hey, post my profile to a different city for telling me if it's any good."
Tobi Lütke：但即便如此，不应该有类似的内容，“嘿，将我的个人资料发布到另一个城市，告诉我它是否有好处。”
Tobi Lütke: I mean I've never dated basically so I mean at least not in the last 25 years.
Tobi Lütke：我的意思是我基本上从未约会过，所以我的意思是至少在过去 25 年里没有约会过。
Tobi Lütke: So I'm pre swipe left and right dating, so my conception is very low of this.
Tobi Lütke：所以我在约会时左右滑动，所以我对此的看法很低。
Maybe I should look more at dating apps.
也许我应该更多地关注约会应用程序。
I'm pretty sure there's some amazing UX in most things.
我很确定大多数事情都有一些令人惊叹的用户体验。
Lenny Rachitsky: I imagine.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：我想。
I feel like dating is going offline more and more.
我感觉约会越来越走向线下。
I'm feeling like that's what people are trying to do.
我觉得这就是人们正在努力做的事情。
They're tired of the swipe, but anyway, going to go in that direction.
他们厌倦了滑动，但无论如何，都会朝那个方向走。
Maybe a couple more questions while I have you here.
当我在这儿的时候，也许还有几个问题。
One is this idea of the talent stack.
其中之一就是人才堆栈的想法。
You've mentioned this concept before and this is the term that I've seen you describe it as of this idea of the power of focusing on your unique talents and curiosity and that leading you to the biggest opportunities, especially early in your career.
您之前曾提到过这个概念，我看到您用这个术语来描述它，即专注于您独特的才能和好奇心的力量，并引导您获得最大的机会，尤其是在职业生涯的早期。
Can you just talk about what your insight there.
您能谈谈您的见解吗？
Tobi Lütke: Yeah, again, I only lived one life, so I can't Monte Carlo all the decisions I make and just figure out which ones ended up being load baring, right?
Tobi Lütke：是的，再说一次，我只活过一次，所以我不能蒙特卡洛我所做的所有决定，然后找出哪些决定最终成为空载，对吗？
I'm at this point pretty amused by the following thing which keeps happening.
此时此刻，我对不断发生的以下事情感到非常好笑。
But I am getting curious about some absolutely random thing and it really is fairly far-flung stuff and like magic it becomes the way that ends up allowing me to make a very important choice a year later.
但我对一些绝对随机的事情感到好奇，它确实是相当遥远的事情，就像魔法一样，它最终让我在一年后做出一个非常重要的选择。
It's ends up being a better analogy that I've learned or a different way to see something or another idea that I found being represented in this area of expertise that is actually just again, another repackaging of another foundational idea, which allows me to go and look for more examples.
这最终成为我学到的一个更好的类比，或者是一种不同的方式来看待我发现在这个专业领域中所代表的某些东西或另一个想法，这实际上又是另一个基本想法的重新包装，这使我能够去寻找更多的例子。
Tobi Lütke: And it's just funny this way.
Tobi Lütke：这样就很有趣了。
So even early in career just I followed my curiosity.
因此，即使在职业生涯的早期，我也只是追随自己的好奇心。
I love programming and I love computers and I loved the internet when it came along and I just like, "Cool, I'm going to find a task that I find valuable," which I was always engaged in retail and I have a lot to say about how retail should be brought by the internet to people.
我喜欢编程，我喜欢计算机，当互联网出现时我也喜欢它，我只是喜欢，“酷，我会找到一个我认为有价值的任务”，我一直从事零售业，对于互联网应该如何将零售业带给人们，我有很多话要说。
But this is a beautiful intersection of all the things that I find interesting.
但这是我觉得有趣的所有事情的美丽交集。
And then on top of it, I found Ruby, which I loved as a technology and then just now I was highly motivated to tinker, explore a space that was clearly emerging but just felt very obviously of value in the future.
然后最重要的是，我发现了 Ruby，我喜欢它作为一种技术，然后就在刚才，我非常有动力去修补、探索一个显然正在兴起但在未来非常明显有价值的空间。
Tobi Lütke: But I didn't do it because I was following money.
Tobi Lütke：但我没有这样做，因为我追随金钱。
I did it because I like learning by doing stuff and I like tinkering the things and so this was a way of financing my tinkering by selling snowboards and then it led to other things.
我这样做是因为我喜欢通过做事来学习，我喜欢修补东西，所以这是通过销售滑雪板来资助我修补东西的一种方式，然后它导致了其他事情。
And I've kind of been doing that thing all along.
我一直在做那件事。
It's great fun, great fun for me.
这非常有趣，对我来说非常有趣。
I don't know how much of a advice that is, but maybe a proof point that can work really well.
我不知道这有多大的建议，但也许是一个非常有效的证据。
I sometimes worry though that things like this end up being a little bit like all you need to do is buy a lottery ticket, set for lottery ticket winner, right?
我有时会担心，这样的事情最终有点像你所需要做的就是买一张彩票，为彩票中奖者设置，对吗？
So it's, who knows?
原来如此，谁知道呢？
Lenny Rachitsky: It does resonate.
Lenny Rachitsky：它确实引起了共鸣。
It reminds me of something Brian Armstrong once shared, which is the reason that he-
这让我想起布莱恩·阿姆斯特朗曾经分享过的一些事情，这就是他——
Tobi Lütke: He's also, by the way, you have to add him to the set of first principle thinkers if you're starting to cultivate one.
Tobi Lütke：顺便说一句，如果你开始培养第一原理思想家，你必须将他添加到第一原理思想家中。
And I think there's plenty of startup success, successful founders, CEOs, especially for public companies are surprisingly alike in this projecting slightly different, maybe coming from different backgrounds, but Brian is extraordinarily strong at this by the way.
我认为有很多成功的创业公司、成功的创始人、首席执行官，特别是上市公司的创始人、首席执行官，在这个项目上都出奇地相似，略有不同，也许来自不同的背景，但顺便说一句，布莱恩在这方面非常擅长。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, here's to the next nominated for the podcast, Brian.
Lenny Rachitsky：好的，这是播客的下一位提名者，布莱恩。
We'll get on it.
我们会继续努力的。
But interestingly, he had basically exact same advice for what allowed him to create Coinbase is his background was economics, coding and cryptography or something along those lines.
但有趣的是，他对创建 Coinbase 的建议基本上完全相同，因为他的背景是经济学、编码和密码学或类似的东西。
And it's the Venn diagram, is like, "This is the thing I'm uniquely strong at and have an opportunity to win it."
这就是维恩图，就像，“这是我独特的强项，并且有机会赢得它。”
Tobi Lütke: Yeah.
托比·吕特克：是的。
So this is what we very actively tell our customers, right?
这就是我们非常积极地告诉客户的，对吧？
There's a 2005 essay by Kevin Kelly saying, "In the future on the internet you just need a thousand true fans." It's what the internet and I think what Shopify celebrates, that instead of trying to create toothpaste, which is of course a huge term but hard to differentiate.
凯文·凯利 (Kevin Kelly) 在 2005 年发表的一篇文章中写道：“未来在互联网上，你只需要一千个真正的粉丝。”这就是互联网和我认为 Shopify 所庆祝的，而不是试图创造牙膏，这当然是一个很大的术语，但很难区分。
It's much better to figure out a triplicate intersection of three different things and nail it.
最好找出三个不同事物的三重交集并确定它。
We took a winter vacation with my boys and my family in the Caribbean and I like playing poker with them.
我们和我的孩子们和家人在加勒比海度过了寒假，我喜欢和他们一起玩扑克。
I like playing poker and it's great limited information game.
我喜欢玩扑克，这是一种很棒的有限信息游戏。
I think this were valuable for kids and so I found this, I might have mentioned this in some place, but I found this pirate gold I think it's called.
我认为这对孩子们来说很有价值，所以我发现了这个，我可能在某个地方提到过这一点，但我发现了这个海盗金，我认为它被称为。
Tobi Lütke: It's just amazing poker set, poker chips that look like they come right out of the treasure chest or in Pirates of the Caribbean.
Tobi Lütke：这是一套令人惊叹的扑克牌，扑克筹码看起来就像是从宝箱里或《加勒比海盗》中直接拿出来的。
Think about just the intersection, so this is online Texas Hold'em, quality poker set instead of...
想想路口，所以这是在线德州扑克，高质量的扑克套装而不是......
because you can play with just anything, right?
因为你可以玩任何东西，对吧？
People were in the market for spending money on something like this and pirate themed.
人们在市场上花钱购买这样的海盗主题的东西。
You're like, " But I'm such a big fan, I'm telling you about it and people might actually purchase it because I'm enthusiastic about it." And because enthusiasm is actually the best marketing and they have at least a thousand true fans, and it's just better to make amazing things for some people than make something that everyone wants maybe or would tolerate.
你会说，“但我是它的忠实粉丝，我告诉你它，人们可能真的会购买它，因为我对它充满热情。”因为热情实际上是最好的营销，他们至少有一千名真正的粉丝，为某些人制作令人惊叹的东西比制作每个人都想要或可以容忍的东西更好。
And I think that's really, really good.
我认为这真的非常非常好。
So I think that works for your career too because by the way, we are all entrepreneurs so we're ready to think about any career.
所以我认为这也适合你的职业生涯，因为顺便说一句，我们都是企业家，所以我们准备好考虑任何职业。
Tobi Lütke: If you actually ask me for career advice is we are products, we are engaged in entrepreneurship, we are basically software as a service if you want, or talent as a service.
Tobi Lütke：如果你真的向我寻求职业建议，我们是产品，我们从事创业，如果你愿意的话，我们基本上是软件即服务，或者人才即服务。
We are selling a subscription in the form of our employment we call it, but it's actually just rebranded the subscription frankly because it comes some extra protection, which is very good, but it's still the same thing, it's a double opt-in company.
我们以我们称之为雇佣的形式出售订阅，但坦白地说，它实际上只是重新命名了订阅，因为它带来了一些额外的保护，这非常好，但它仍然是同一件事，它是一家双重选择加入的公司。
Like you would say, I can do these things and I will be of significantly more value to the company than you will have to spend on me.
就像你会说的，我可以做这些事情，而且我对公司的价值将远远高于你在我身上花费的价值。
There's like a positive ROI ideally for a company and a company either says, "I agree or I don't agree with you." And that's actually what employment is.
对于公司来说，理想的投资回报率是正的，而公司要么说：“我同意，要么不同意你的观点。”这实际上就是就业。
So I think people should think about themselves as a product.
所以我认为人们应该将自己视为一种产品。
Your career is not based on mentors you find or getting a promotion or not.
你的职业生涯并不取决于你找到的导师或是否获得晋升。
Tobi Lütke: It's about what are you too good to ignore in?
Tobi Lütke：这是关于你有哪些优秀之处，不容忽视？
How good can you be?
你能有多好？
Can you be absolutely work?
你能绝对工作吗？
Can you be excellent?
你能优秀吗？
I mean you don't have to be work class and stuff, but you have to...
我的意思是你不必是工人阶级之类的，但你必须......
Ideally you find a thing where you are just in this sort of tiny space of five intersections or so versus we just know more than everyone else and then everyone calls you.
理想情况下，你会发现一个东西，你就在这种只有五个十字路口左右的狭小空间里，而我们只是比其他人知道得更多，然后每个人都打电话给你。
Like I said, we use Ruby.
正如我所说，我们使用 Ruby。
Ruby was not that fast.
Ruby 没那么快。
Shopify would rather have it very fast.
Shopify 宁愿速度非常快。
We found people who got PhDs in dynamic language, garbage collection dynamic language, just in time compilation to make Ruby fast.
我们找到了一些在动态语言、垃圾收集动态语言、及时编译方面获得博士学位的人，以使 Ruby 更快。
And they're having delightful time at Shopify and Shopify is now very fast and it's very good.
他们在 Shopify 度过了愉快的时光，Shopify 现在速度非常快，而且非常好。
And everyone gets to profit from us needing this because we merged it back into Ruby Core and now everyone can have a JIT compiler.
每个人都可以从我们需要的东西中受益，因为我们将它合并回 Ruby Core，现在每个人都可以拥有 JIT 编译器。
So it's great.
所以这很棒。
Lenny Rachitsky: I feel like every story is a fractal into other hours of other podcast conversation we can have.
Lenny Rachitsky：我觉得每个故事都是我们可以进行的其他播客对话的其他时间的分形。
I know you have to go run this nine, 10, 10,000 person company and do real work.
我知道你必须去经营这家 9 人、10 人、10,000 人的公司并做实事。
So I'm going to end it there.
所以我就到此结束吧。
We got through almost everything I was hoping to get through, but there's infinitely more questions I still have.
我们几乎完成了我希望完成的所有事情，但我仍然有无数的问题。
Just to maybe end it, is there anything you want to leave listeners with?
最后，您有什么想留给听众的吗？
Any last nugget that maybe you didn't mention?
还有最后一点你可能没有提到的吗？
Tobi Lütke: If I get to talk to again people who look at product and product management, here's my thing that I think maybe only implicitly came through in all this.
Tobi Lütke：如果我再次与研究产品和产品管理的人交谈，我认为这可能只是在所有这一切中隐含地体现出来的。
Every product in the world, the quality at the end of the day is simply a reflection of how much the people who created it gave a shit about the product.
世界上的每一种产品，归根结底的质量只是反映了创造它的人对该产品的重视程度。
And it is not possible to make great products if the people work on it do not give a shit about the product.
如果开发人员不关心产品，就不可能制造出伟大的产品。
And I actually think this is a very important role for product leaders to make sure that the team gives a shit.
事实上，我认为对于产品负责人来说这是一个非常重要的角色，以确保团队认真对待。
And I think this is something that can be done with building empathy for people using it, but also it can be done infectiously by the product leader.
我认为这可以通过为使用它的人建立同理心来完成，而且产品领导者也可以通过感染力来完成。
The product leader has to give a shit.
产品负责人必须在乎。
Do not engage in product work on product that you don't care about because you cannot produce the thing that the person will give you a task is looking for.
不要从事你不关心的产品工作，因为你无法生产出人们给你的任务正在寻找的东西。
Tobi Lütke: And I think again, so much goes into this unquantifiable conversation which we already had, but boy is that important because it just isn't about the brief document, it isn't about the aligning stakeholders.
Tobi Lütke：我再次想到，我们已经进行了这场无法量化的对话，但它是如此重要，因为它不仅仅是关于简短的文件，也不是关于协调利益相关者。
Sometimes in some places some of those things are aspects of it and I think they correlate sometimes with people.
有时在某些地方，其中一些事情是它的各个方面，我认为它们有时与人相关。
But I think the higher order bit is if you are in product, you have basically free roads.
但我认为更高的一点是，如果你从事产品，你基本上有免费的道路。
You have to have the team sits, look around corners that they don't see.
你必须让团队坐下来，看看他们看不到的角落。
You just have to understand this thing that's being done better than everyone else because that's a role.
你只需要理解这件事比其他人做得更好，因为那是一个角色。
Now, you don't have to do this by yourself.
现在，您不必自己执行此操作。
Everyone on the team is of a resource to you and you can query them and therefore determine what is around the corners and so on.
团队中的每个人都是您的资源，您可以查询他们，从而确定即将发生的事情等等。
But in engineering and UX and so on, but that's very important.
但在工程和用户体验等方面，这却是非常重要的。
Second is you've got to be exothermically infectious with actually caring about this thing because just that one thing alone will make a 10 times better product.
其次，你必须具有真正关心这件事的热情，因为仅凭这一件事就能制造出好 10 倍的产品。
It's crazy how much of a change this makes.
这带来了多大的改变，真是太疯狂了。
Lenny Rachitsky: I feel like honestly what you're describing here is like founder mode, what the outputs are.
Lenny Rachitsky：老实说，我觉得你在这里描述的就像创始人模式，输出是什么。
Giving a shit, being exothermic excited and looking around corners.
不在乎，兴奋得放热，四处张望。
I feel like this is its own conversation here.
我觉得这就是它自己的对话。
Tobi Lütke: Yeah, I agree.
Tobi Lütke：是的，我同意。
I don't think founder mode, so I mean I think, yeah, founder mode is a super valuable term, but I actually do think that I answered the question about what I think about founder mode in the discussion about pumping heat into systems.
我不认为创始人模式，所以我的意思是我认为，是的，创始人模式是一个非常有价值的术语，但我实际上确实认为我在有关向系统注入热量的讨论中回答了关于我对创始人模式的看法的问题。
That's what I do.
这就是我所做的。
It's just that founder mode in a founder run company, I think this has an easier time existing because people dislike the people who are pumping heat into a thing.
这只是创始人经营的公司中的创始人模式，我认为这种模式存在更容易，因为人们不喜欢那些为事物注入热量的人。
People fight them, people probably take them out, and if the boss is like this, boss can protect the other people like this.
人们与他们战斗，人们可能会消灭他们，如果老板这样，老板就可以这样保护其他人。
And therefore I think founder run companies can be innovative longer because there's a substrate by which this can stay a thing for a long time.
因此，我认为创始人经营的公司可以更长时间地创新，因为有一个基础可以让创新长期存在。
So anyway, that's my tear down on the founder mode discussion, which I think is a really fascinating recent discussion.
无论如何，这就是我对创始人模式讨论的拆解，我认为这是最近一次非常有趣的讨论。
I find it's very valuable.
我觉得它非常有价值。
I'm sure it's misunderstood in all sorts of ways, but I think it's more actionable than people think.
我确信它在各个方面都被误解了，但我认为它比人们想象的更可行。
Lenny Rachitsky: Tobi, I appreciate you continuing to drop nuggets, even though I know you have to go, by the way, your video looks incredible right now.
Lenny Rachitsky：Tobi，我很感谢你继续扔下金块，尽管我知道你必须离开，顺便说一句，你的视频现在看起来棒极了。
This is amazing editing, we're doing like a rainbow streaming across your body.
这是令人惊叹的编辑，我们就像彩虹一样流过你的身体。
Tobi Lütke: Yeah, we really hit the rainbows here like, "Let's go and invent." I hope you've got to gold that you were hoping and-
Tobi Lütke：是的，我们真的在这里遇到了彩虹，“让我们去发明吧。”我希望你已经获得了你所希望的金牌并且-
Tobi Lütke: ...
托比·吕特克：...
I was sufficient leprechaun here to deliver.
我已经足够小妖精来交付了。
Lenny Rachitsky: What a metaphor.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：真是个比喻。
Okay, Tobi, thank you so much for doing this.
好的，Tobi，非常感谢你所做的事情。
This was incredible.
这太不可思议了。
I feel like this is going to help so many people build great companies and thank you from first principles.
我觉得这将帮助很多人建立伟大的公司，并从根本上感谢你们。
Okay, bye.: Thank you so much for listening.
好的，再见：非常感谢您的聆听。
If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.
如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。
Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.
另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。
You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.
您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。
See you in the next episode.
下一集见。