The ultimate guide to paid growth | Timothy Davis (Shopify)

Lenny Rachitsky: Is performance marketing just something every company should be doing?

Lenny Rachitsky：效果营销是每个公司都应该做的事情吗？

Timothy Davis: Hot take, paid is for everyone.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：热门，付费适合所有人。

If you look at the way each platform is doing, Google, you have to scroll pretty far down to get to an organic listing.

如果你看看每个平台的做法，谷歌，你必须向下滚动很远才能看到有机列表。

Meta, it's almost a pay for play now.

Meta，现在几乎是付费游戏了。

Lenny Rachitsky: When you take over for an agency at a company, you crush their performance within a month.

Lenny Rachitsky：当你接手一家公司的代理机构时，你会在一个月内碾压他们的表现。

I'm curious to what you find they are doing wrong?

我很好奇你发现他们做错了什么？

Timothy Davis: Instead of thinking about being on top of the page, and that's like ego marketing, I want to be number one.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：我不想成为第一，而这就像自我营销一样，我想成为第一。

I want to be there all the time.

我想一直在那里。

It's about showing to the right person as often as possible.

这是为了尽可能频繁地向合适的人展示。

Lenny Rachitsky: Any other tips for people just to experiment with the platform?

Lenny Rachitsky：对于人们尝试该平台还有其他建议吗？

Timothy Davis: Each platform is different.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：每个平台都是不同的。

The user behavior is different.

用户行为不同。

Make sure you're not too hard on yourself if it doesn't work.

如果这不起作用，请确保不要对自己太苛刻。

It's okay to fail because we're either winning or we're learning.

失败没关系，因为我们要么获胜，要么正在学习。

Lenny Rachitsky: Today, my guest is Timothy Davis.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：今天，我的客人是蒂莫西·戴维斯。

Timothy has led performance marketing for all of Shopify for the past two and a half years, and as a consultant has helped companies like Pinterest, LinkedIn, Redfin, and Eventbrite kickstart and scale the performance marketing teams.

过去两年半，Timothy 领导了整个 Shopify 的绩效营销，并作为顾问帮助 Pinterest、LinkedIn、Redfin 和 Eventbrite 等公司启动和扩展绩效营销团队。

In our conversation, we get incredibly tactical on all things to performance marketing and paid growth, when to start investing, how to run signs of life tests on each platform, what platforms to investigate and what platforms to bet big on, what types of companies are best suited to invest big on paid growth whether you should invest pre-product market fit or not, what agencies often get wrong and what to look for in your investment when you're just getting started?

在我们的对话中，我们对绩效营销和付费增长的所有问题都采取了令人难以置信的策略，何时开始投资，如何在每个平台上运行生命迹象测试，要调查哪些平台以及要在哪些平台上投入大笔资金，哪些类型的公司最适合在付费增长上进行大量投资，是否应该投资产品前的市场契合度，哪些机构经常出错以及刚开始时在投资中寻找什么？

Plus, what your first three hires should look like, tips for which platforms are most interesting right now, a peek at Timothy's actual reports that he runs to judge performance, if you're watching this on YouTube and so much more.

另外，你的前三名员工应该是什么样子，目前哪些平台最有趣的提示，看看 Timothy 用来评判绩效的实际报告（如果你在 YouTube 上观看的话）等等。

Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is for anyone who's trying to figure out how to kickstart or improve their performance marketing investment, and I guarantee you'll get something out of this that'll make your life better.

Lenny Rachitsky：本集适合任何想弄清楚如何启动或改善绩效营销投资的人，我保证您会从中得到一些东西，让您的生活变得更好。

If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube.

如果您喜欢这个播客，请不要忘记订阅并在您最喜欢的播客应用程序或 YouTube 中关注它。

It's the best way to avoid missing future episodes and it helps the podcast tremendously.

这是避免错过未来剧集的最佳方式，并且对播客有很大帮助。

With that, I bring you Timothy Davis.

接下来，我为您带来蒂莫西·戴维斯。

Timothy, thank you so much for being here.

蒂莫西，非常感谢你来到这里。

Welcome to the podcast.

欢迎来到播客。

Timothy Davis: Yeah, thanks for having me.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：是的，谢谢你邀请我。

A long time coming.

好久不见了。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, I'm really excited we're finally doing this.

Lenny Rachitsky：是的，我真的很兴奋我们终于做到了。

I actually posted on Twitter for people to suggest questions for this topic and there's just so much interest in what we're going to be talking about, which essentially we're going to be diving deep into all things paid growth, all things performance marketing.

实际上，我在 Twitter 上发帖，让人们就这个主题提出问题，人们对我们将要讨论的内容非常感兴趣，本质上我们将深入探讨所有付费增长、所有绩效营销的内容。

By the way, I have a cold.

顺便说一句，我感冒了。

For people, if in case you wonder why I sound a little weird, but the show must go on.

对于人们来说，如果你想知道为什么我听起来有点奇怪，但演出必须继续下去。

I want to start with just setting a little context for folks that aren't super familiar with performance marketing and paid growth.

我想首先为那些不太熟悉绩效营销和付费增长的人设置一些背景信息。

When we talk about performance marketing/paid growth, first of all, are those two terms interchangeable to you?

当我们谈论绩效营销/付费增长时，首先，这两个术语对您来说可以互换吗？

And second of all, what falls under the umbrella of performance marketing/paid growth?

其次，什么属于绩效营销/付费增长的范畴？

Timothy Davis: Paid can be a lot of things.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：付费可以是很多东西。

It can be online, it can be offline, it can also even be affiliates.

它可以是在线的，可以是离线的，甚至还可以是附属机构。

Typically, when I talk about performance marketing, it's about online only, but you could argue offline could be performing and affiliates could be performing and stuff like that.

通常，当我谈论绩效营销时，它仅涉及在线，但您可能会说线下可以进行绩效，附属机构也可以进行类似的事情。

They can be interchangeable, but I would recommend if you are talking about it, to specify which one you're talking about.

它们可以互换，但我建议如果您正在谈论它，请指定您正在谈论的是哪一个。

Because when you do say paid, because I'm in the industry, I would just, "Oh, they do Google Search and they do Meta and they do things like that." But if you do offline and you just say paid, we may be talking about things, but missing each other on two ships passing in the night.

因为当你说付费时，因为我在这个行业，我只会说，“哦，他们做谷歌搜索，他们做元，他们做类似的事情。”但如果你线下做，只是说付费，我们可能正在谈论事情，但却在夜色中驶过的两艘船上错过了彼此。

So I think historically, people, when they have said paid growth, have been fully focused on just online.

所以我认为，从历史上看，当人们谈到付费增长时，他们已经完全专注于在线业务。

Timothy Davis: But I would argue in the last couple of years, you could definitely roll offline into that conversation as well.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：但我认为在过去几年中，你也绝对可以离线参与该对话。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

So performance marketing, when someone hears that term, it's essentially marketing that you can measure the performance up.

因此，当有人听到绩效营销这个术语时，它本质上是一种可以衡量绩效的营销。

Timothy Davis: Correct.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：正确。

Yes, nail on the head.

是的，钉在头上。

Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by buildbetter.ai.

Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 buildbetter.ai 为您带来。

Back in 2020 when AI was just a toy, BuildBetter bet that it could cut down on a product team's operational BS.

早在 2020 年，当人工智能还只是一个玩具时，BuildBetter 就认为它可以减少产品团队的运营废话。

Fast-forward to today, 23,000 product teams use purpose-built AI in BuildBetter every day.

快进到今天，每天都有 23,000 个产品团队在 BuildBetter 中使用专门构建的 AI。

First, BuildBetter uses custom models to turn unstructured data like product and sales calls, support tickets, internal communications and surveys into structured insights.

首先，BuildBetter 使用自定义模型将产品和销售电话、支持票证、内部通信和调查等非结构化数据转化为结构化见解。

It's like having a dedicated data science team.

这就像拥有一个专门的数据科学团队。

Second, BuildBetter runs those structured insights into workflows, like weekly reports about customer issues, context-aware PRDs and user research documents with citations.

其次，BuildBetter 将这些结构化洞察运行到工作流程中，例如有关客户问题的每周报告、上下文感知 PRD 以及带引用的用户研究文档。

It even turns stand-ups into action items that automatically get assigned and shared into your tools.

它甚至可以将站立会议变成行动项目，并自动分配并共享到您的工具中。

Plus, with unlimited seat pricing on all plans, BuildBetter ensures everyone at your company has access to this knowledge.

此外，BuildBetter 对所有计划均提供无限席位定价，确保您公司的每个人都能获得这些知识。

Truly, no data silos.

确实，没有数据孤岛。

In a world of AI demos, over promising and under-delivering, see why BuildBetter has a 93% subscription retention.

在 AI 演示的世界中，承诺过多而交付不足，看看为什么 BuildBetter 的订阅保留率高达 93%。

Get a personalized demo and use code, Lenny, for a $100 credit if you sign up now at buildbetter.ai/lenny.

如果您立即在 buildbetter.ai/lenny 注册，即可获得个性化演示并使用代码 Lenny，即可获得 100 美元的积分。

I'm excited to chat with Christina Gilbert, the founder of OneSchema, one of our long time podcast sponsors.

我很高兴能与 OneSchema 的创始人 Christina Gilbert 聊天，OneSchema 是我们的长期播客赞助商之一。

Hi, Christina.

嗨，克里斯蒂娜。

Christina Gilbert: Yes.

克里斯蒂娜·吉尔伯特：是的。

Thank you for having me on, Lenny.

谢谢你邀请我参加，莱尼。

Lenny Rachitsky: What is the latest with OneSchema?

Lenny Rachitsky：OneSchema 的最新动态是什么？

I know you now work with some of my favorite companies like Ramp, Vanta Scale and Watershed.

我知道您现在与我最喜欢的一些公司合作，例如 Ramp、Vanta Scale 和 Watershed。

I heard that you just launched a new product to help product teams import CSVs from especially tricky systems like ERPs.

我听说你们刚刚推出了一款新产品，帮助产品团队从 ERP 等特别棘手的系统导入 CSV。

Christina Gilbert: Yes.

克里斯蒂娜·吉尔伯特：是的。

So we just launched OneSchema file feeds, which allows you to build an integration with any system in 15 minutes as long as you can export a CSV to an SFTP folder.

因此，我们刚刚推出了 OneSchema 文件源，只要您可以将 CSV 导出到 SFTP 文件夹，您就可以在 15 分钟内与任何系统构建集成。

We see our customers all the time getting stuck with hacks and workarounds, and the product teams that we work with don't have to turn down prospects because their systems are too hard to integrate with.

我们经常看到我们的客户陷入黑客攻击和解决方法的困境，而与我们合作的产品团队不必因为他们的系统太难集成而拒绝潜在客户。

We allow our customers to offer thousands of integrations without involving their engineering team at all.

我们允许客户提供数千种集成，而无需他们的工程团队参与。

Lenny Rachitsky: I can tell you that if my team had to build integrations like this, how nice would it be to be able to take this off my roadmap and instead, use something like OneSchema, and not just to build it, but also to maintain it forever.

Lenny Rachitsky：我可以告诉你，如果我的团队必须构建这样的集成，那么能够将其从我的路线图上删除并使用 OneSchema 之类的东西该有多好，不仅要构建它，而且要永远维护它。

Christina Gilbert: Absolutely, Lenny.

克里斯蒂娜·吉尔伯特：当然，莱尼。

We've heard so many horror stories of multi-day outages from even just a handful of bad records.

我们已经听过许多因少数不良记录而导致多天停电的恐怖故事。

We are laser-focused on integration reliability to help teams end all of those distractions that come up with integrations.

我们高度关注集成可靠性，以帮助团队消除集成带来的所有干扰。

We have a built-in validation layer that stops any bad data from entering your system and OneSchema will notify your team immediately of any data that looks incorrect.

我们有一个内置的验证层，可以阻止任何不良数据进入您的系统，OneSchema 将立即通知您的团队任何看起来不正确的数据。

Lenny Rachitsky: I know that importing incorrect data can cause all kinds of pain for your customers and quickly lose their trust.

Lenny Rachitsky：我知道导入不正确的数据会给您的客户带来各种痛苦，并很快失去他们的信任。

Christina, thank you for joining us.

克里斯蒂娜，感谢您加入我们。

And if you want to learn more, head on over to oneschema.co. That's oneschema.

如果您想了解更多信息，请访问 oneschema.co。这就是一个架构。

co.

公司

Lenny Rachitsky: Is performance marketing just something every company should be doing or is there certain business models where it's like, "No, you're probably going to grow through other channels mostly like SEO or sales or word of mouth.

Lenny Rachitsky：绩效营销是每个公司都应该做的事情吗？或者是否存在某些特定的商业模式，“不，你可能会通过其他渠道实现增长，主要是搜索引擎优化、销售或口碑。

Timothy Davis: Hot take.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：热门。

I would say, paid is for everyone.

我想说的是，付费是适合所有人的。

If you look at the way each platform is doing, Google introducing AI, plus with paid taking up the first four spots, you have to scroll pretty far down to get to an organic listing.

如果你看看每个平台的做法，谷歌引入了人工智能，再加上付费占据了前四个位置，你必须向下滚动很远才能看到有机列表。

Meta, it's almost a pay for play now.

Meta，现在几乎是付费游戏了。

You have to do promoted posts for people to even see your content.

您必须发布推广帖子才能让人们看到您的内容。

I would say it does depend on the industry you're in.

我想说这确实取决于你所在的行业。

If you're say, leaning heavily into influencer marketing, that is still a paid component.

如果你说，严重依赖影响者营销，那仍然是一个付费部分。

You may not be doing Meta ads, you may not be doing paid search, but that is a paid component.

你可能没有做元广告，你可能没有做付费搜索，但这是一个付费组件。

But I would say at baseline, everyone should be doing paid search.

但我想说，在基线上，每个人都应该进行付费搜索。

The way I usually explain it to people is paid search is user driven.

我通常向人们解释的方式是付费搜索是用户驱动的。

You have to type in a relevant keyword for your ad to show.

您必须输入相关关键字才能展示广告。

Timothy Davis: Anything else is more disruptive media.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：其他任何东西都是更具破坏性的媒体。

You're on Meta and you're looking at pictures of babies and cats, and then all of a sudden, you see an ad for Shopify.

您在 Meta 上查看婴儿和猫的照片，然后突然看到 Shopify 的广告。

You're watching a YouTube video, maybe a YouTube podcast, and then in between, you get advertisements maybe for Shopify, maybe for Pinterest, maybe for Eventbrite.

您正在观看 YouTube 视频，也许是 YouTube 播客，然后在这期间，您会收到 Shopify、Pinterest、Eventbrite 的广告。

So all of that being disruptive media may not make a whole lot of sense for where you are as a business, but I would say paid search being user-driven, having to type in a relevant keyword for your ad to show, should pretty much be for just about everybody.

因此，所有这些颠覆性媒体可能对您作为一个企业来说没有多大意义，但我想说的是，付费搜索是用户驱动的，必须输入相关关键字才能显示广告，这几乎应该适合所有人。

Lenny Rachitsky: Everyone should do it.

Lenny Rachitsky：每个人都应该这样做。

Super interesting.

超级有趣。

There's also the most companies grow through one growth engine primarily, say word of mouth, or SEO, or sales or paid.

大多数公司主要通过一种增长引擎实现增长，比如口碑、搜索引擎优化、销售或付费。

So for some companies, paid will be most of how they grow like say, I always think of Booking.com and Credit Karma and just like most of their growth came from paid growth online, paid growth.

因此，对于一些公司来说，付费将是他们增长的主要方式，比如，我总是想到 Booking.com 和 Credit Karma，就像他们的大部分增长来自在线付费增长一样。

For some companies, it's just like a layer, a small 10, 20% of their growth.

对于一些公司来说，它就像一个层，占其增长的一小部分 10%、20%。

What are signs that you have the potential for paid/performance marketing to be most of your growth, like say 70, 80%?

有哪些迹象表明您有潜力通过付费/效果营销来实现大部分增长，例如 70%、80%？

Timothy Davis: I always say, where are your users?

蒂莫西·戴维斯：我总是说，你的用户在哪里？

You will have some data that will allow you to understand that say right now, you're doing really well on TikTok.

您将获得一些数据，让您了解现在您在 TikTok 上的表现非常好。

Some would argue that's an emerging channel right now.

有些人会认为这是目前的一个新兴渠道。

Great.

太棒了。

If that's doing really well for you, maybe you take...

如果这对你来说真的很好，也许你会……

Because that content could be used on something similar like Snap, see how that does for you.

因为该内容可以用于类似 Snap 的内容，所以看看它对您有何帮助。

You could also lean into your Google Analytics or whatever analytics tool you are using and see if you're already getting users from that platform.

您还可以利用 Google Analytics 或您正在使用的任何分析工具，看看您是否已经从该平台吸引了用户。

If you're currently managing that, if you don't have a profile on there and obviously, you don't have a presence, it would be really hard for users to find you and get there.

如果您目前正在管理该服务，如果您没有个人资料，并且显然您没有存在，那么用户将很难找到您并到达那里。

But always look at the data that's available to you within your analytics platforms and say, "Users are already finding us here.

但请务必查看分析平台中可用的数据，并说：“用户已经在这里找到了我们。

How can we turn that knob up to 11?" And you can do that with paid.

我们怎样才能把旋钮调到 11？”而且你可以付费做到这一点。

Because if they're already finding you through that channel, what would happen if you were to just turn it up to 11?

因为如果他们已经通过该频道找到您，那么如果您将其调至 11 会发生什么？

Lenny Rachitsky: Is there an example of a company you worked with that's known that as an example of that, where you're like, "Oh, I see everyone's looking, finding them on Google.

Lenny Rachitsky：有没有一个与你合作过的公司的例子，作为一个例子，你会说，“哦，我看到每个人都在寻找，在谷歌上找到他们。

Let's go turn it to 11."

我们去把它调到11吧。”

Timothy Davis: Yeah.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：是的。

So there was a company I worked with a couple of years ago called, Hairstory and IPSY.

几年前我曾合作过一家名为 Hairstory 和 IPSY 的公司。

I know, very funny.

我知道，非常有趣。

Guy with no hair working on a company called Hairstory, but they were doing really well from a Google shopping standpoint.

没有头发的家伙在一家名为 Hairstory 的公司工作，但从 Google 购物的角度来看，他们做得非常好。

But when I started consulting with them, we looked at the analytics and we actually saw that they were getting a lot of people from Meta and TikTok at the time.

但当我开始向他们咨询时，我们查看了分析结果，实际上发现他们当时从 Meta 和 TikTok 吸引了很多人。

And TikTok was very, very new and they didn't really know what to do with it.

TikTok 非常非常新，他们真的不知道如何利用它。

So said, "We'll do a small test." We can start on Meta with just some customer testimonials.

所以说，“我们会做一个小测试。”我们可以从一些客户推荐开始使用 Meta。

Let's see how that does.

让我们看看效果如何。

We'll get interest in, build a funnel, get retargeting, and hopefully get conversions.

我们会感兴趣，建立一个渠道，重新定位，并希望获得转化。

TikTok was so new at the time that it was like, "We don't know what's going to work.

TikTok 当时还很新，以至于“我们不知道什么会起作用。

Let's just try with what is currently available."

让我们尝试一下当前可用的东西。”

Timothy Davis: Then once we started doing it, we started noticing, "Hey, this doesn't make a whole lot of sense from a creative standpoint." We were missing the mark of what we were using on Meta was working, was not working on TikTok.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：一旦我们开始这样做，我们就开始注意到，“嘿，从创意的角度来看，这没有多大意义。”我们没有注意到我们在 Meta 上使用的东西有效，但在 TikTok 上无效。

So you can't always just take what is currently working on one platform and apply it to another because it is a different user experience.

因此，您不能总是将当前在一个平台上运行的内容应用于另一个平台，因为这是一种不同的用户体验。

It is a different mindset that the user has when they're on there.

用户在现场时的心态是不同的。

So that was an example of where we were able to take those instances, look at their data and say, "They're already finding us here.

这是一个例子，我们能够利用这些实例，查看他们的数据并说：“他们已经在这里找到我们了。

How can we turn this up a little bit?" And I don't remember the numbers exactly, but it was pretty exponential.

我们怎样才能把这个数字调高一点呢？”我记不清具体的数字了，但它是相当指数级的。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

So the core advice here so far, is look for where people are coming to you from today, and then that gives you a sign of where you should start to think about running paid ads, performance marketing on those platforms.

因此，到目前为止，这里的核心建议是寻找人们从今天开始到哪里来找你，然后这会给你一个迹象，表明你应该开始考虑在这些平台上投放付费广告和效果营销。

Timothy Davis: Yeah.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：是的。

And also, there's a saying that my current director likes to use, which is signs of life.

还有，我现在的导演喜欢用一句话，那就是生命的迹象。

You can always do a very, very small test.

你总是可以做一个非常非常小的测试。

You can just put a little money into a platform, see if there's a sign of life.

你可以在一个平台上投入一点钱，看看是否有生命迹象。

If there is, then you can pull back and say, "Okay, we have signs of life.

如果有的话，你可以退后一步说：“好吧，我们有生命迹象了。

Now let's build a campaign around that." There's no reason to say, "All right, we have a signs of life.

现在让我们围绕这个开展一场活动。”没有理由说：“好吧，我们有生命迹象了。

Let's now turn it up all the way." Do we have the right creative?

现在让我们把它调到最大。”我们有合适的创意吗？

Do we have the right campaign?

我们有合适的活动吗？

Do we have the right messaging for the users on this platform?

我们是否为该平台上的用户提供了正确的消息传递？

Then let's take that approach, as opposed to just, "Hey, signs of life, great, go run a hundred miles an hour." Make sure you're doing the right thing when you get into those platforms.

然后让我们采取这种方法，而不是仅仅“嘿，生命迹象，太棒了，以每小时一百英里的速度跑。”当您进入这些平台时，请确保您正在做正确的事情。

Lenny Rachitsky: Let's follow that thread.

Lenny Rachitsky：让我们跟随这条线索。

A lot of people run little experiments on say, TikTok, and Snap, and Twitter, and things like LinkedIn, and they often don't see a lot of results and it's always like, "Hey, did we do it wrong or is it the platform's not working?" I know it's a very difficult question to give like, "Here's how you do a sign of life test correctly," But what are some things that you think either people do often wrong when they're trying to experiment with the platform or that you just think they should do when they're trying to look for signs of life?

很多人在 TikTok、Snap、Twitter 以及 LinkedIn 之类的平台上进行一些小实验，但他们通常看不到很多结果，他们总是会想，“嘿，我们是不是做错了，还是平台不起作用了？”我知道这是一个很难提出的问题，比如“以下是如何正确进行生命迹象测试”，但是您认为人们在尝试使用该平台时经常做错的事情，或者您认为他们在尝试寻找生命迹象时应该做的事情有哪些？

Timothy Davis: The number one thing I tell people all the time is use your own data, start with your own data.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：我一直告诉人们的第一件事就是使用你自己的数据，从你自己的数据开始。

So take the existing customer base you have, load that up into the platform to build lookalikes.

因此，利用您现有的客户群，将其加载到平台中以构建相似的客户群。

From there, you can do...

从那里，你可以做...

And I'll use Meta as the example.

我将使用 Meta 作为示例。

You can do a 1%, all the way up to a 10%.

你可以做 1%，一直到 10%。

So 1% match, 2%, 3%, so on and so forth.

所以 1% 匹配，2%，3%，等等。

Timothy Davis: What I tend to do is build ad sets, one at 1% because we know that one's going to be highly correlated to what we're looking for.

Timothy Davis：我倾向于做的是构建广告集，其中一个为 1%，因为我们知道它与我们正在寻找的内容高度相关。

Then a two to four, and then a five to seven, and then an eight plus.

然后是二比四，然后是五比七，然后是八加。

More times than not, the eight plus does not work, but there have been times where it has, so it's, "Hey, let's do it.

很多时候，8 plus 不起作用，但也有几次它起作用，所以，“嘿，让我们开始吧。

Let's try it." But if you also have a very limited budget because some people don't have the luxury of having an unlimited budget like we do in some of these other companies I've worked at, just start with the 1%.

让我们试试吧。”但是，如果你的预算也非常有限，因为有些人没有像我工作过的其他一些公司那样拥有无限预算的奢侈，那么就从 1% 开始吧。

See what that sign of life is because you already know that this is so tied to your existing customer base.

看看这个生命迹象是什么，因为您已经知道这与您现有的客户群密切相关。

If that sign of life is giving you a positive signal, now you have the information you need to build a campaign you need to be successful.

如果这个生命迹象给了你一个积极的信号，那么现在你就拥有了开展成功所需的活动所需的信息。

Lenny Rachitsky: What are these percentages referring to?

Lenny Rachitsky：这些百分比指的是什么？

You may have mentioned it, but when you say 1%, 2%, 3%.

你可能提到过，但是当你说1%、2%、3%时。

Timothy Davis: Yeah, yeah.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：是的，是的。

So that is how closely tied they are to that user's behavior on the platform.

这就是它们与用户在平台上的行为的紧密联系。

So they're 1% tied to what they're doing.

所以他们有 1% 与他们正在做的事情相关。

They're visiting similar pages or they have similar behavior on the platform, so they're more than likely going to be tied to what that user...

他们访问相似的页面或者在平台上有相似的行为，因此他们很可能与该用户的内容相关......

They're not going to be that user exactly, but they're going to be very correlated to them where 10% is pretty wide base that you're going to hit.

他们不会完全是那个用户，但他们会与他们非常相关，其中 10% 是你要达到的相当广泛的基础。

Lenny Rachitsky: I see.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我明白了。

So the smaller the percentage, the closer they are, the closer it will look like there.

所以百分比越小，它们越接近，看起来就越接近。

Lenny Rachitsky: How do you know if it's the creative that is failing versus it's just never going to work?

Lenny Rachitsky：你怎么知道是创意失败了还是永远行不通？

Is there something that tells you that's what's not working?

有什么东西告诉你那是行不通的吗？

Timothy Davis: It's a million-dollar question, to be honest with you.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：老实说，这是一个价值百万美元的问题。

Because you could look at some of the metrics that currently exist in the platform.

因为您可以查看平台中当前存在的一些指标。

Click-through rate basically just tells you, are the users engaged?

点击率基本上只是告诉你，用户是否参与？

Because start with the target.

因为从目标开始。

You're getting the impressions are there.

你得到的印象就在那里。

Is the target right?

目标正确吗？

That should be your first thing.

这应该是你的第一件事。

Yes, the target is correct.

是的，目标是正确的。

Users that we want to see are seeing our ads, but they're not engaging with it.

我们希望看到的用户正在看到我们的广告，但他们并没有参与其中。

That would be the first thing.

这是第一件事。

Timothy Davis: But the part that I think you're really trying to ask is creative versus the content.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：但我认为你真正想问的是创意与内容。

Because sometimes depending on the ad unit, you could have a story creative that is literally the creative has to stand on its own, not necessarily the content that's in it, but something like an in-feed creative has a headline, a primary, a description, and a creative.

因为有时根据广告单元的不同，您可能会拥有一个故事广告素材，实际上该广告素材必须独立存在，不一定是其中的内容，但像信息流广告素材之类的内容有标题、主要内容、描述和广告素材。

That's where honestly, the only way you're going to get an answer to that outside of the data that's available to you like click-through rate, reach, frequency and all those things to pull in more metrics, is a focus group to understand, "Hey, when you saw this image with this content, what was your result from it?"

老实说，除了点击率、覆盖范围、频率和所有这些可以获取更多指标的数据之外，你想要得到答案的唯一方法是通过焦点小组来理解，“嘿，当你看到这张带有此内容的图片时，你从中得到了什么结果？”

Timothy Davis: Now, you can build a test within the platform to do a control versus a test where say, you take the creative with the same primary and the same description versus a creative that's just your logo with the headline and the description and see what the results are.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：现在，您可以在平台内构建一个测试来进行控制与测试，例如，您采用具有相同主要和相同描述的创意与仅带有标题和描述的徽标的创意，然后查看结果是什么。

But more times than not, you're not getting the understanding from the user of, well, why doesn't that creative resonate with you?

但很多时候，你无法从用户那里得到理解，那么，为什么这个创意没有引起你的共鸣呢？

And they'll give you suggestions in the focus group.

他们会在焦点小组中给你建议。

Why does that work better for you than not?

为什么这对你来说比不更有效？

So that's a really, really hard question to answer without having those dialogue with the user to understand that.

因此，如果不与用户进行对话来理解这一点，这是一个非常非常难以回答的问题。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

Lenny Rachitsky：是的，这很有道理。

How long do you recommend these tests run for these signs of life tests?

您建议这些生命迹象测试运行多长时间？

And I like this term, by the way.

顺便说一句，我喜欢这个词。

I haven't heard this before.

我以前没听说过这个。

Timothy Davis: Ideally, in a perfect world, you're going to hear the word, statistical relevance.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：理想情况下，在完美的世界中，您会听到统计相关性这个词。

Mathematicians will tell you exactly what that number is.

数学家会准确地告诉你这个数字是多少。

And I'm not going to pretend like a mathematician, but a lot of times, it's budget constraint.

我不会假装像数学家，但很多时候，这是预算限制。

So there could be a VP finance.

所以可能会有一名财务副总裁。

Anyone like that could just come to you and just say, "Hey, do you have $25,000 for this test?" You only have 5,000.

这样的人可能会来找你并说：“嘿，你有 25,000 美元用于这次测试吗？”你只有5000。

Just get that information, get that data.

只需获取该信息，获取该数据。

You can then also build an off size off of that.

然后，您还可以以此为基础构建一个尺寸较小的产品。

Hey guys, we worked with our Meta partners, we worked with our Google partners.

大家好，我们与我们的 Meta 合作伙伴合作，我们与我们的 Google 合作伙伴合作。

We put $1,000 behind this test.

我们为本次测试投入了 1,000 美元。

We know that our impression share was this, our reach was this.

我们知道我们的展示份额是这样的，我们的影响力是这样的。

If we were to put $10,000 into it, this is the expected return we can get from it based on the click-through rate, the conversion rate that we got from the test that we ran.

如果我们投入 10,000 美元，这是我们根据点击率（我们从运行的测试中获得的转化率）可以获得的预期回报。

Lenny Rachitsky: Got it.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：明白了。

So basically, we have limited number of dollars to spend.

所以基本上，我们可以花的美元数量有限。

That'll tell you how long you could run one of these for.

这会告诉您其中一项可以运行多长时间。

Lenny Rachitsky: Any other tips for someone that's trying to experiment with a platform early on for these signs of life tests?

Lenny Rachitsky：对于那些试图早期尝试平台进行这些生命迹象测试的人，还有其他建议吗？

So one is try a lookalike that is the most targeted version of the lookalike.

因此，我们可以尝试一种相似的版本，这是最有针对性的版本。

So 1% you said, and then incrementally grown and incrementally increase that percentage as you spend more.

所以你说的是 1%，然后随着你花的更多，逐渐增加这个百分比。

Any other tips, I guess, for people just to experiment with the platform?

我想，对于那些只是尝试该平台的人来说，还有其他建议吗？

Timothy Davis: Make sure you're not too hard on yourself if it doesn't work.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：如果这不起作用，请确保不要对自己太苛刻。

A lot of times, companies I've either consulted with or worked at, there was always pressure or there was always a need to succeed at whatever experiment we put into market.

很多时候，我咨询过或工作过的公司总是存在压力，或者总是需要在我们投入市场的任何实验中取得成功。

I believe in creating an environment where it's okay to fail because we're either winning or we're learning.

我相信要创造一个允许失败的环境，因为我们要么获胜，要么正在学习。

And more times than not, if we put something new into a platform that we know nothing about, we're learning the bells and whistles, we're learning the functionality of it.

很多时候，如果我们将一些新的东西放入一个我们一无所知的平台中，我们就会学习它的花里胡哨，我们就会学习它的功能。

Just know there's going to be things you're not going to understand because each platform is unique, each platform is different, the user behavior is different.

只要知道有些事情你不会理解，因为每个平台都是独特的，每个平台都不同，用户行为也不同。

So give yourself some grace, understand that this may not work.

所以给自己一些宽容，明白这可能行不通。

And as long as you're learning from it, you're going to be okay.

只要你从中学习，你就会没事的。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love that.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢这个。

In terms of which platforms people should explore, obviously there's Google, there's Facebook, Instagram, what are the platforms people should seriously consider at this point?

就人们应该探索哪些平台而言，显然有谷歌、Facebook、Instagram，目前人们应该认真考虑哪些平台？

Timothy Davis: Google for sure.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：当然是谷歌。

And when we say Google, let's make sure everyone understands what Google entails.

当我们说 Google 时，我们要确保每个人都了解 Google 的含义。

Google is YouTube, Google is Google search, GDN, Google Display Network.

Google 是 YouTube，Google 是 Google 搜索、GDN、Google 展示广告网络。

There's a lot of things in Google that you can do.

在 Google 中您可以做很多事情。

I always say, if you have the creative available, you should really, really be looking at doing video because video is one of those things that I'm very bullish on.

我总是说，如果你有创意，你真的应该考虑制作视频，因为视频是我非常看好的事情之一。

It is doing really well when you measure it the right way.

当你以正确的方式测量时，它的表现非常好。

And as long as you can get that creative and get it consistently just because you have one piece of creative, if it's doing well, you do need to have that creative refresh, kind of that flywheel going.

只要你能够获得这种创意并持续获得它，仅仅因为你有一个创意，如果它做得很好，你确实需要进行创意更新，就像飞轮一样。

Make sure you're doing Google Search, again, user-driven, YouTube, and Meta, and Meta contains both Facebook and Instagram.

再次确保您使用的是 Google 搜索、用户驱动、YouTube 和 Meta，而 Meta 包含 Facebook 和 Instagram。

And then based on the data available to you, if you do see users on TikTok, definitely go after those.

然后根据您掌握的数据，如果您确实在 TikTok 上看到用户，那么一定要关注这些用户。

But if you're just starting out and you just want to get your feet wet into something, I would say start with Google Search, then get into Meta.

但如果你刚刚开始，并且只是想尝试一些东西，我会说从 Google 搜索开始，然后进入 Meta。

And if you have video available, definitely get into YouTube.

如果您有可用的视频，一定要访问 YouTube。

Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

Okay.

好的。

So Google Search, YouTube, Facebook, Instagram, TikTok.

所以谷歌搜索、YouTube、Facebook、Instagram、TikTok。

What about LinkedIn?

领英怎么样？

Do you see things happening there for say, B2B companies?

您是否看到 B2B 公司正在发生的事情？

Timothy Davis: Yeah.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：是的。

LinkedIn is very expensive in comparison.

相比之下，LinkedIn 的价格非常昂贵。

So just know if you're going into LinkedIn, it's going to look almost three times more expensive than other channels.

因此，只要知道您是否要进入 LinkedIn，它看起来就会比其他渠道贵几乎三倍。

The targeting that's available on LinkedIn, knowing job titles, industries, actually targeting people at certain companies is very powerful.

LinkedIn 上提供的定位功能非常强大，可以了解职位名称、行业，实际上可以针对某些公司的人员。

The example I always tend to use is that I worked at a company called SoftLayer.

我经常使用的例子是我在一家名为 SoftLayer 的公司工作。

SoftLayer was acquired by IBM because they were trying to build out their cloud portfolio, couldn't do it.

SoftLayer 被 IBM 收购，因为他们试图构建自己的云产品组合，但未能成功。

So they're like, "Hey, let's do the next best thing and buy this company." But when we were just SoftLayer, we were trying to get Coca-Cola as one of our clients.

所以他们会说，“嘿，让我们做下一个最好的事情，买下这家公司。”但当我们还只是 SoftLayer 时，我们试图让可口可乐成为我们的客户之一。

And you know those Coke freestyles where you can pick whatever drink you want and put the flavor in it?

你知道那些可口可乐自由式，你可以选择任何你想要的饮料并添加风味吗？

Timothy Davis: Oh man, these are great.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：天哪，这些太棒了。

Maybe it's a cell thing, but basically, you go up to a Coke freestyle and say, "I want Dr. Pepper and I want cherry flavor in it." Or you want Coke Zero with cherry and vanilla in it, you can do that.

也许这是细胞的问题，但基本上，你走到可乐自由式前说：“我想要胡椒博士，我想要里面有樱桃味。”或者你想要加樱桃和香草的零可乐，你也可以这样做。

It's the freestyle you get to pick.

这是你可以选择的自由泳。

The reason they wanted it to be cloud-based is because there's a ton of drinks in there.

他们希望它基于云的原因是因为那里有大量的饮料。

So you need to be able to efficiently and effectively say, "This store needs more Sprite or this store needs more Sprite Zero." Because you have your whole portfolio in this one machine, so you want to be able to update things more readily.

因此，您需要能够高效且有效地说：“这家商店需要更多雪碧，或者这家商店需要更多雪碧零。”因为您的整个投资组合都在一台机器上，所以您希望能够更轻松地更新内容。

And it was between us, AWS and Microsoft.

这是我们、AWS 和 Microsoft 之间的事。

And met with the sales team and said, "What do we need to do to win this?" Because it was a big ticket item for us.

并与销售团队会面并询问：“我们需要做什么才能赢得这场胜利？”因为这对我们来说是一个大件物品。

Timothy Davis: And what we found out was they had two concerns about us.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：我们发现他们对我们有两个担忧。

It was recency and private security.

这是新近和私人保安。

So what we did was we found out where the decision makers were.

所以我们所做的就是找出决策者在哪里。

So A, in LinkedIn, we took the anyone who works at Coca-Cola, we want you to see ads about security and recency.

A，在 LinkedIn 中，我们招募了在可口可乐工作的任何人，我们希望您看到有关安全性和新近度的广告。

Outside of that, we also geo-fenced it because you would think Coca-Cola Atlanta, that's where the decision maker sits, but they were actually in LA.

除此之外，我们还对它进行了地理围栏，因为你可能会认为亚特兰大可口可乐公司是决策者所在的地方，但他们实际上在洛杉矶。

So in LA, we geo-fenced them, and we knew that they worked at Coca-Cola.

所以在洛杉矶，我们对他们进行了地理围栏，我们知道他们在可口可乐工作。

The next time the salesperson got on the call with the team to say, "Hey, just wanted to check in." He was like, "Hey, hey, I get it.

下次销售人员打电话给团队时说：“嘿，只是想登记一下。”他就像是，“嘿，嘿，我明白了。

Security is fine.

治安很好。

Recency is fine.

新近度很好。

We hear you." That was great to hear because it was something we were able to do on LinkedIn and we did it in other platforms as well.

我们听到你的声音了。”听到这个消息真是太好了，因为我们可以在 LinkedIn 上做到这一点，而且我们也在其他平台上做到了。

But we knew we were able to get not only to the decision maker, but everyone around that decision maker to say, "Hey, these guys may be the ones we need to go with."

但我们知道我们不仅能够让决策者，而且能够让决策者周围的每个人都说：“嘿，这些人可能就是我们需要与之合作的人。”

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

So just to mirror back what you're saying, you're saying you ran ads on LinkedIn targeting the execs at Coca-Cola, trying to influence them to overcome these barriers they had to buying to working with you guys.

所以，为了反映你所说的，你说你在 LinkedIn 上投放了针对可口可乐高管的广告，试图影响他们克服与你们合作所必须购买的障碍。

Amazing.

惊人的。

I've seen people do that on Google Search, but I've never heard of...

我见过有人在 Google 搜索上这样做，但我从未听说过......

It makes so much sense to do on LinkedIn and it worked.

在 LinkedIn 上做这件事非常有意义，而且很有效。

And did they know that you did this or they're just like, "Oh, I just changed my mind"?

他们是否知道你这样做了，或者他们只是说，“哦，我只是改变了主意”？

Timothy Davis: One of them was like, "We get it.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：其中一个人说，“我们明白了。

We're seeing it everywhere." We actually tried because at the time, we didn't have an offline team.

我们到处都可以看到它。”我们确实尝试过，因为当时我们没有线下团队。

We actually tried to buy the billboards around the office as well, but I didn't know enough at the time from an offline perspective of the right people to talk to, how long it would take to do it.

我们实际上也尝试过购买办公室周围的广告牌，但当时我从线下的角度并不清楚与合适的人交谈，需要多长时间才能做到这一点。

So we were trying to pour it on hard.

所以我们努力把它倒在上面。

Lenny Rachitsky: That's incredible.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：这太不可思议了。

I could see why LinkedIn is more expensive.

我明白为什么 LinkedIn 更贵了。

That's incredibly powerful.

这是非常强大的。

And is the advice then that LinkedIn makes more sense for higher LTV, higher CB type of products?

那么 LinkedIn 的建议对于更高 LTV、更高 CB 类型的产品更有意义吗？

Timothy Davis: Yeah, exactly.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：是的，完全正确。

I would not recommend getting into LinkedIn and my LinkedIn reps may kill me for this.

我不建议进入 LinkedIn，我的 LinkedIn 代表可能会因此杀了我。

I would not recommend getting into LinkedIn until you've tested Google and Meta first.

在您先测试过 Google 和 Meta 之前，我不建议您进入 LinkedIn。

Now, you could be an enterprise level company and it does make sense to start with LinkedIn for sure, but depending on your audience, I would say more times than not, it would be a Google, Meta discussion before going to LinkedIn.

现在，你可能是一家企业级公司，从 LinkedIn 开始确实有意义，但根据你的受众，我会多次说，在进入 LinkedIn 之前，这将是 Google、Meta 的讨论。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

So just generally, start with Google and Meta.

所以一般来说，从 Google 和 Meta 开始。

Is there one or the other usually?

通常是有其中之一吗？

I guess, yeah, which one would you start with if you had to pick one?

我想，是的，如果你必须选择一个，你会从哪一个开始？

Timothy Davis: Always Google Search.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：始终使用 Google 搜索。

I'm always going to say, start with Google search, but it's also creative dependent.

我总是会说，从谷歌搜索开始，但这也取决于创意。

If you don't have the right creative for Facebook, it's going to be really hard to convert because users are just going to either be turned off by what you're putting out there.

如果你没有适合 Facebook 的创意，那么转化将非常困难，因为用户要么会对你发布的内容失去兴趣。

And then also, depending on where your user base is.

然后还取决于您的用户群所在的位置。

If they're not on Facebook, it's kind of a moot point.

如果他们不在 Facebook 上，那就没什么意义了。

But if they're browsing around on GDN or YouTube, it makes more sense to go there.

但如果他们在 GDN 或 YouTube 上浏览，那么去那里更有意义。

Lenny Rachitsky: And then you said this insight about video is performing super well right now and you're recommending people use video.

Lenny Rachitsky：然后你说这种关于视频的见解现在表现得非常好，你建议人们使用视频。

And the key there is you need to be able to make videos, video ads.

关键是你需要能够制作视频、视频广告。

Timothy Davis: Yeah.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：是的。

You got to make sure you have that flywheel.

你必须确保你有那个飞轮。

Lenny Rachitsky: And the flywheel is just people internally or some company agency that can make video ads for you?

Lenny Rachitsky：飞轮只是内部人员或一些可以为您制作视频广告的公司机构？

Lenny Rachitsky: Cool.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：酷。

I guess, is there any advice there of just how to do that or what ads work well or anything there for someone else-

我想，有没有关于如何做到这一点的建议，或者哪些广告效果很好，或者其他人有什么建议-

Timothy Davis: So yeah.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：是的。

The thing with YouTube is I always say, start with emotion.

我总是说，YouTube 的特点是，从情感开始。

If you can have an emotional connection with the user, is going to be way more impactful and way more powerful than anything else.

如果你能与用户建立情感联系，那将比其他任何事情都更有影响力和力量。

And to take that further, when I say emotion, I'm talking about comedy, I'm talking about...

更进一步来说，当我说情感时，我说的是喜剧，我说的是……

Timothy Davis: I'm talking about happiness.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：我说的是幸福。

It's not necessarily just, "Oh, we need an emotional connection with the brand." It is just making sure the user feels something after seeing your ad.

这不一定只是“哦，我们需要与品牌建立情感联系。”只是确保用户在看到您的广告后有所感受。

Because then, they're more times not going to remember it, which then they will take a favorable action after the fact.

因为这样，他们更多时候不会记住它，然后他们会在事后采取有利的行动。

Lenny Rachitsky: That is super interesting.

Lenny Rachitsky：这非常有趣。

One last question about platforms.

关于平台的最后一个问题。

Are there any other platforms you see working for people that are emerging maybe that people aren't thinking about, Reddit, or Snap, or X, or I don't know, anything along those lines?

您是否发现还有其他平台为新兴的人们工作，也许人们没有考虑过，Reddit、Snap、X，或者我不知道，类似的东西？

Timothy Davis: When you say emerging channels, my brain kind of goes to connected TV, podcast, VR, advertising, audio/voice search, and even AI stuff right now.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：当你说新兴频道时，我的大脑现在会想到联网电视、播客、虚拟现实、广告、音频/语音搜索，甚至人工智能的东西。

I can tell you podcasts are doing really well for the people that I know are able to measure it correctly.

我可以告诉你，对于我认识的能够正确衡量播客的人来说，播客的表现非常好。

Connected TV is also doing really well.

联网电视也表现出色。

You can take the, again, you're doing YouTube right now, being able to take that creative and repurpose it.

您可以再次利用您现在正在做的 YouTube，能够利用该创意并重新利用它。

But the VR stuff and the AI stuff, that is stuff that is, I would say, very emerging right now.

但虚拟现实和人工智能的东西，我想说，这些东西现在非常新兴。

Because to be completely transparent, I haven't experimented with those things yet.

因为为了完全透明，我还没有尝试过这些东西。

I kind of like letting other people be the guinea pig and learning from them, and then if someone comes to me and they're like, "Hey, we have budget for this, let's go ahead and test it." "Great.

我有点喜欢让其他人成为小白鼠并向他们学习，然后如果有人来找我，他们会说：“嘿，我们有预算，让我们继续测试一下。” “太好了。

Let's go.

我们走吧。

Let's see what we can learn."

让我们看看我们能学到什么。”

Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

Podcast ads.

播客广告。

I'm glad you suggested that.

我很高兴你这么建议。

I'm a huge fan.

我是它的超级粉丝。

Thank you.

谢谢。

They're working really well for a lot of our sponsors and I'm very biased, so you don't need to pay attention to me.

他们为我们的很多赞助商工作得非常好，而且我很有偏见，所以你不需要关注我。

But I also think there's a lot of opportunity there.

但我也认为那里有很多机会。

Okay.

好的。

Let's talk about when to start investing in performance marketing/paid growth.

我们来谈谈何时开始投资绩效营销/付费增长。

So, say, you're a startup, do you have any advice for when it's time to start, signs of life test or even...

那么，假设您是一家初创公司，您对何时开始、生命迹象测试甚至……有什么建议吗？

And then also, just when is it time to scale to go like, "Okay, let's go big on this."

然后，什么时候才能扩大规模，比如“好吧，让我们把这件事做大”。

Timothy Davis: If you are a startup, typically, whenever I consulted with them, it was what are the goals, what are we trying to achieve, and when?

蒂莫西·戴维斯：如果你是一家初创公司，通常，每当我与他们协商时，问题就是目标是什么，我们想要实现什么，以及何时实现？

Because if you're looking for something quick, paid needs to start immediate.

因为如果您正在寻找快速的东西，则需要立即开始付费。

And paid started yesterday because SEO takes time.

昨天开始付费，因为 SEO 需要时间。

SEO, depending on the market you're getting into, if it's emerging, people may not even know your product exists.

SEO，取决于你要进入的市场，如果它是新兴的，人们甚至可能不知道你的产品存在。

There was a product I was working on years ago that if you were traveling to a hotel, and say, it was a romantic getaway with you and your partner.

几年前我正在开发一个产品，如果你去一家酒店旅行，并且说，这是与你和你的伴侣的浪漫之旅。

And you wanted the hotel suite or room done up with flower petals, and champagne, and stuff like that, they would do it for you.

如果你想要酒店套房或房间装饰上花瓣、香槟之类的东西，他们会为你做的。

Well, they were working with someone before that was like, "Oh, we should totally be in paid search." And if you look at the keywords that they were doing, it was like, booking hotel rooms.

好吧，他们之前曾与某人合作，“哦，我们完全应该进行付费搜索。”如果你看一下他们所做的关键词，就会发现，就像预订酒店房间。

It's like, "No, that's complete disconnect." And they're like, "Yeah, but we're trying to build awareness."

就像是，“不，那是完全脱节。”他们会说，“是的，但我们正在努力提高人们的意识。”

Timothy Davis: You don't want to build awareness through search.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：你不想通过搜索来建立意识。

You build awareness through display media-based type media.

您可以通过显示基于媒体的类型的媒体来建立知名度。

When we transitioned all of their money over at the time, and this will age me, before Meta was a thing, when we transitioned everything over to GDN, that's when the company started really reaping the rewards.

当我们当时把他们所有的钱都转移过来时，这会让我变老，在 Meta 出现之前，当我们把所有的钱都转移到 GDN 时，那时公司才开始真正获得回报。

Because we were building the awareness around the product.

因为我们正在围绕产品建立意识。

So, it depends on what is the demand of your product and market.

所以，这取决于你的产品和市场的需求是什么。

If you're doing something that is similar to another product and market, you could do competitor, I call it coattail riding.

如果你正在做的事情与另一种产品和市场类似，你可以做竞争对手，我称之为顺风车。

Say, Lenny, you and I create a product that is similar to monday.com.

比如说，莱尼，你和我创建了一个类似于 monday.com 的产品。

We can go out there and just start bidding on monday.com and say, "See why Lenny and Tim are better than monday.com." And start getting some people in interested, maybe kicking the tires, starting free trials, but they also have other keywords that they can go after in market.

我们可以直接在 monday.com 上开始竞价，然后说：“看看为什么 Lenny 和 Tim 比 monday.com 更好。”并开始让一些人感兴趣，也许可以尝试一下，开始免费试用，但他们也有其他可以在市场上追求的关键词。

But if you're going after something new like hotel room, flowers, and I forget what keywords we were bidding on for that, it was years ago.

但如果你想要一些新的东西，比如酒店房间、鲜花，我忘记了我们竞价的关键词是什么，那是几年前的事了。

People weren't thinking of that.

人们没有想到这一点。

It wasn't something they were searching for.

这不是他们要寻找的东西。

So, it just really depends on, A, when do you expect results because SEO can take time.

所以，这实际上取决于，A，你什么时候期望得到结果，因为 SEO 需要时间。

And B, what is the demand in the market for your product?

B，市场对你们产品的需求是什么？

Lenny Rachitsky: Some people use paid ads to drive early growth to bring customers, to help them figure out what to build kind of pre-product market fit growth.

Lenny Rachitsky：有些人使用付费广告来推动早期增长，从而带来客户，帮助他们弄清楚如何建立一种适合产品前市场的增长。

Is that something you recommend?

这是你推荐的吗？

Is that something you'd advise against?

你会建议不要这样做吗？

Is that strategy that you've seen work?

您认为这个策略有效吗？

Timothy Davis: Yeah.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：是的。

Product market fit is a huge thing.

产品市场契合度是一件大事。

We've run into some of this at Shopify, and we definitely ran into this at IBM.

我们在 Shopify 遇到过一些这样的情况，而且我们在 IBM 也确实遇到过这种情况。

So, for the longest time, IBM is, "We're a global company, we should be everywhere." But when we started looking at the data, it was, "Should we be everywhere?" For example, Africa, we were in the whole continent.

因此，很长一段时间以来，IBM 一直在说：“我们是一家全球性公司，我们应该无处不在。”但当我们开始查看数据时，我们的想法是：“我们应该无处不在吗？”比如说非洲，我们是整个大陆。

We weren't just in, say, South Africa, or Egypt, or something like that.

我们不只是在南非、埃及或类似的地方。

And the more we dug into it, the more we realized the biggest issue wasn't necessarily that users weren't interested in our product and weren't purchasing it, it was because we didn't have a product market fit mainly from an operation standpoint.

我们越深入研究，就越意识到最大的问题不一定是用户对我们的产品不感兴趣并且不购买它，而是因为我们主要从运营角度来看没有适合市场的产品。

Timothy Davis: In Africa, there are multitudes of different types of currency.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：在非洲，有多种不同类型的货币。

There's the franc, there's the rand, there's the shill, and we were just, "Hey, USD, thank you." So, of course, they weren't converting unless they were going out of their way to make a way to convert that.

有法郎，有兰特，有托儿，我们只是说，“嘿，美元，谢谢。”因此，当然，除非他们不遗余力地找到一种方法来进行转换，否则他们不会进行转换。

So, when we took a step back and we said, "Okay, where do we want to start?" It was South Africa.

所以，当我们退后一步说：“好吧，我们要从哪里开始？”那是南非。

That's really where we were trying to get, quote, unquote, "stronghold" in, so we had to make sure we had the rand available.

这确实是我们试图获得、引用、取消引用“据点”的地方，所以我们必须确保我们有可用的兰特。

Once we did that, we started doing tremendously better because we had a product market fit.

一旦我们做到了这一点，我们就开始做得更好，因为我们的产品适合市场。

They had demand for our product, and now we were able to serve them, meet them where they were.

他们对我们的产品有需求，现在我们能够为他们提供服务，满足他们的需求。

Lenny Rachitsky: So essentially, you're saying probably not smart to run a bunch of ads if it's not working, if you don't have something people actually want yet in that market?

Lenny Rachitsky：所以本质上，你是说，如果广告不起作用，如果你在那个市场上还没有人们真正想要的东西，那么投放一堆广告可能是不明智的？

Lenny Rachitsky: Because conversion is going to end up being really low, no one actually cares about what you're doing.

Lenny Rachitsky：因为转化率最终会非常低，所以没有人真正关心你在做什么。

Timothy Davis: All you're going to do is really annoy the users.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：你要做的就是真正惹恼用户。

Because, say, in the future they are, "Hey, I'm still interested, but I don't want to use that product because I already tried." It's like, "No, no, you can totally use it now." "I already tried.

因为，比如说，将来他们会说，“嘿，我仍然感兴趣，但我不想使用该产品，因为我已经尝试过。”就像，“不，不，你现在完全可以使用它了。” “我已经尝试过了。

I had a bad experience with them." And some users will hold you accountable to that.

我和他们有过一段糟糕的经历。”有些用户会让你对此负责。

One bad experience and I'm just never giving you my business.

一次糟糕的经历，我只是永远不会给你我的生意。

Lenny Rachitsky: Interesting.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：有趣。

So, is that generally your advice if you're startup, you're not feeling like you actually have product market fit yet, should you even experiment with and do signs of life tests, or should you hold off until it's like, "Okay, it's actually working, let's go."

那么，这通常是你的建议，如果你是初创公司，你觉得你的产品还没有真正适合市场，你是否应该尝试并进行生命迹象测试，或者你是否应该推迟，直到它就像，“好吧，它实际上在起作用，让我们开始吧。”

Timothy Davis: From an operation standpoint, I always want to make sure those things are tied off.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：从操作的角度来看，我总是想确保这些事情都被捆绑起来。

Yeah, it doesn't make sense to, again, if you have a major budget and you're trying to get awareness into a market, great, yeah, you can go after a market.

是的，如果你有大量预算并且你想提高市场意识，那么这是没有意义的，很好，是的，你可以追求市场。

But just know that it's probably not going to convert very well.

但要知道它可能不会很好地转化。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, great.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的，太好了。

Awesome.

惊人的。

Very clear answer.

非常明确的答案。

Let's talk about the mistakes that you see companies make when they're investing in performance marketing.

让我们谈谈您看到的公司在投资效果营销时所犯的错误。

We got introduced through Casey Winters's illustrious former podcast guest, two-time podcast guest and asked them about you.

我们是通过凯西·温特斯（Casey Winters）著名的前播客嘉宾、两届播客嘉宾介绍的，并向他们询问了您的情况。

And he told me that when you take over for an agency at a company that you've worked with, you crush their performance within a month.

他告诉我，当你接手一家与你合作过的公司的代理机构时，你会在一个月内碾压他们的表现。

I'm curious to what you see and find they are doing wrong that allows you to be such a hero when you come in and take over.

我很好奇你所看到的并发现他们做错了什么，这让你在接任时成为英雄。

Timothy Davis: I think agencies have playbooks.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：我认为各机构都有剧本。

Now I've worked at agencies, I did consulting for a long period of time and it was never an approach I took.

现在我在代理机构工作过，做了很长一段时间的咨询工作，但这从来不是我采取的方法。

I looked at each account and each company as its own thing.

我将每个账户和每个公司视为自己的事情。

But I think a lot of agencies just come in and they go, "Oh, this is like AB&C company.

但我认为很多机构刚进来就说：“哦，这就像 AB&C 公司。

And this is what we're doing.

这就是我们正在做的事情。

Copy, paste, done, move on." And they're also not willing to get deep, deep, deep into the weeds of stuff.

复制、粘贴、完成，继续。”而且他们也不愿意深入、深入、深入地了解事物的杂草。

I may get a little too far into data than some other people.

我可能比其他人更深入地了解数据。

For example, I have ops cadence that myself and my team follow.

例如，我和我的团队遵循的操作节奏。

So, within that ops cadence, we have things like finance, performance, structure, keywords, ad copy, quality score, targeting, et cetera, et cetera.

因此，在运营节奏中，我们有财务、绩效、结构、关键词、广告文案、质量得分、目标定位等内容。

And then, within each of those we have specifics.

然后，在每一个中我们都有具体细节。

For example, the keyword subsection is keyword granularity, brand versus non-brand, search query reports, negative, so on so forth.

例如，关键字子部分是关键字粒度、品牌与非品牌、搜索查询报告、否定等等。

Timothy Davis: I feel like agencies don't necessarily get into all of those things every single month where some of those we're doing weekly, some of those we're doing biweekly, and some of those we're doing monthly.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：我觉得各机构不一定每个月都会处理所有这些事情，有些我们每周做一次，有些我们每两周做一次，有些我们每月做一次。

But they touch the things that they think they need to touch.

但他们接触的是他们认为需要接触的东西。

They turn on automated bidding, they're doing their search query reports, and then they just kind of move on with their day because they have 50 other clients they have to get to.

他们打开自动出价，制作搜索查询报告，然后继续他们的一天，因为他们还有 50 个其他客户需要联系。

Well, what about looking at your conversions?

那么，看看您的转化怎么样？

Where are we converting?

我们在哪里转换？

Have we tested different landing pages?

我们测试过不同的登陆页面吗？

What is a better user experience that we could be getting users right now?

我们现在可以为用户带来什么更好的用户体验？

It's a five-step process, can we get it to a three?

这是一个五步过程，我们可以把它变成三步吗？

Partnering with PMMs to say, "Hey, here's something that I think could help improve our lead to conversion." Just stuff like that, that they're too busy with too many other things to focus really, really deep into those.

与 PMM 合作说：“嘿，我认为这里有一些东西可以帮助我们提高转化率。”就这样，他们太忙于太多其他事情，无法真正、真正深入地关注这些事情。

Timothy Davis: And typically, whenever I managed an agency in the past and I consulted, I made sure that you weren't stretched thin enough that you couldn't do those things.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：通常情况下，每当我过去管理一家机构并进行咨询时，我都会确保你不会因为压力太大而无法做这些事情。

Because I'm a firm believer in hiring smart people and then getting out of their way.

因为我坚信雇佣聪明人然后让他们走。

But each week having one-on-ones with them, just spot checking things, just saying, "Hey, I looked at this.

但每周都会与他们进行一对一的交流，只是抽查一些事情，只是说，“嘿，我看了这个。

This doesn't look right.

这看起来不对劲。

What's going on there?" "Oh yeah, I do that on this day." "Okay, great.

那里发生什么事了？” “哦，是的，我今天就这样做。” “好吧，太好了。

Just making sure you're covered." Because sometimes people won't scream uncle when they should be screaming uncle because they think it's a sign of weakness.

只是确保你受到保护。”因为有时人们在应该喊叔叔的时候却不会喊叔叔，因为他们认为这是软弱的表现。

Timothy Davis: But let me know when you're overwhelmed.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：但是当你不知所措时请告诉我。

Maybe I have a solution for you.

也许我有一个解决方案给你。

Maybe there's a way I can coach you to be better at something, or we just need to hire more resources.

也许我可以通过某种方式指导你在某件事上做得更好，或者我们只需要雇用更多资源。

Because the client portfolio you have is five, and when we took them on, they were all at 100K, but now they're all spending 2 million plus.

因为你拥有的客户组合有五个，当我们接手他们时，他们的花费都是 10 万，但现在他们的花费都在 200 万以上。

We need to offload some of that from you because you're doing such a good job that you've scaled them up.

我们需要从你身上分担一些，因为你做得很好，所以你已经扩大了它们的规模。

Let's give you three clients instead of five and hire someone to take those two.

让我们给你三个客户而不是五个，然后雇人来接待这两个客户。

Lenny Rachitsky: So it sounds like basically they just don't have the time to care and spend on all the things that they need to be doing.

Lenny Rachitsky：所以听起来基本上他们只是没有时间去关心和花在他们需要做的所有事情上。

And when you've held companies, you actually go deep and you have the time to do it well.

当你持有公司时，你实际上会深入，并且有时间把它做好。

I guess, when someone's trying to find an agency or someone like you, I know you don't do this much anymore.

我想，当有人试图寻找像你这样的机构或人时，我知道你不会再这样做了。

Any advice for just how to know if they're going to be great?

对于如何知道他们是否会很棒有什么建议吗？

Is it just agencies in general probably not a good choice?

难道只是一般的机构可能不是一个好的选择吗？

Is it hire someone in-house?

是内部雇人吗？

I guess, what advice do you offer people that are like, "Oh man, I want to avoid this."

我想，对于那些“天哪，我想避免这种情况”的人，你会提供什么建议。

Timothy Davis: Agencies are a good place to get things started.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：代理机构是开始工作的好地方。

Even when I was consulting, I would, honestly, I'm a big believer in forward thinking, backwards planning.

老实说，即使我在做咨询工作，我也非常相信前瞻性思维和向后规划。

So, if I'm taking this contract on with this new client, what's the end goal for you?

那么，如果我与这​​位新客户签订这份合同，您的最终目标是什么？

If your end goal is to have this at performing in $100 million spend, there's no way one person can do that.

如果你的最终目标是花费 1 亿美元来实现这一目标，那么没有人可以做到这一点。

So let's create milestones along the way of making sure we're checking in and saying, when is the right time to hire?

因此，让我们在确保我们检查并确定什么时候是合适的招聘时间的过程中创建里程碑。

Whether that's a data scientist, whether that's a creative person in-house or replacing me full time.

无论是数据科学家、内部创意人员还是全职替代我的人。

There's no reason that you should be holding a company back.

你没有理由阻止一家公司的发展。

If anything, you should be helping them get to that milestone.

如果有的话，你应该帮助他们实现这一里程碑。

And I think that's why I've been able to do so well for myself because I show that, "Hey, I have the best interest for you and your company." As opposed to how much more money can I squeeze from you by holding onto you as a client.

我认为这就是为什么我能够为自己做得这么好，因为我表明，“嘿，我对你和你的公司最感兴趣。”而不是通过保留你作为客户我可以从你身上榨取多少钱。

Timothy Davis: I would say, agency consultant is a good way to start.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：我想说，代理顾问是一个很好的起点。

Because if you as a business owner, you shouldn't have to log into, "Oh, I haven't logged into Google in three weeks to look at stuff because I'm doing payroll, I'm doing HR stuff, and I'm meeting with clients, and I'm doing sales." Start there, get it to a good place.

因为如果你作为企业主，你不应该登录，“哦，我已经三周没有登录谷歌查看东西了，因为我正在处理工资，我正在做人力资源工作，我正在与客户会面，我正在做销售。”从那里开始，把它带到一个好地方。

Create that milestone of, "Hey, when we're spending 50K a month, I need to hire somebody full time to take this over." And just have that conversation with your agency and your consultant.

创建这样的里程碑：“嘿，当我们每月花费 5 万美元时，我需要聘请全职人员来接管这件事。”只需与您的代理机构和顾问进行对话即可。

I think more times than not, you will have a positive reaction to that.

我想很多时候你都会对此做出积极的反应。

But if you don't, I would say that's a major red flag and probably someone you shouldn't be partnering with.

但如果你不这样做，我会说这是一个重大危险信号，并且可能是你不应该与之合作的人。

Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

Okay, so your advice is to get started on paid growth, buying an agency or a small shop consultant type person to get you started, have a conversation.

好的，所以你的建议是开始付费增长，购买一个代理机构或一个小商店顾问类型的人来帮助你开始，进行对话。

And when we reach a certain scale, we're going to hire someone internally to run this for us.

当我们达到一定规模时，我们将在内部聘请某人来为我们运营这个项目。

And then, potentially, they'll keep working with you.

然后，他们可能会继续与您​​合作。

Potentially they'll start things in their own.

他们可能会自己开始做事。

Or is the assumption they'll start working with you, they'll become the owner of this thing, or is it like we may transition you out?

或者是假设他们会开始与你合作，他们会成为这个东西的所有者，或者我们可能会将你转出？

Timothy Davis: That's a really good point actually.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：这实际上是一个非常好的观点。

So, there have been times where a client's like, "Hey, we've reached our milestone.

因此，有时客户会说：“嘿，我们已经达到了里程碑。

I want to bring someone in." That person comes in, and say, they're an expert in social media, like, "Hey, I still want you to execute on Google and Bing, because that is just not my bailiwick.

我想带一个人进来。”那个人进来说，他们是社交媒体专家，比如，“嘿，我仍然希望你在 Google 和 Bing 上执行，因为那不是我的管辖范围。

I'll take over the social stuff, but we do need to talk about your fee.

我会接管社交事务，但我们确实需要谈谈你的费用。

Maybe it does need to go down." "Completely acceptable.

也许它确实需要下降。” “完全可以接受。

Let's have that discussion, make sure we're both aligned to what that should be." But yeah, there have been times where they're like, "Hey, we've reached our milestone.

让我们进行讨论，确保我们都同意应该做的事情。”但是，是的，有时他们会说，“嘿，我们已经达到了里程碑。

We got to bring someone on." But that person that they bring on is like, "Actually, I see expansion in this direction, but I can't do this.

我们得找人上场。”但他们带来的那个人会说：“实际上，我看到了这个方向的扩张，但我做不到。

Are you willing to stay on, and help me with this?

你愿意留下来帮助我吗？

Great.

太棒了。

If not, I'll just have to find someone else who can."

如果没有的话，我就只能去找其他有能力的人了。”

Lenny Rachitsky: I want to talk about the team that you build over time, but later.

Lenny Rachitsky：我想谈谈你们随着时间的推移建立的团队，但稍后。

But specifically, for this first person that you hire, what sort of person is this person?

但具体来说，对于你雇用的第一个人来说，这个人是什么样的人？

Is it like a data person?

是不是像一个数据人？

Is it a person that's just done specific performance marketing on channel?

是刚刚在渠道上做了具体效果营销的人吗？

Or what do you look for ideally?

或者说你追求的理想是什么？

Timothy Davis: I'm a big believer in...

蒂莫西·戴维斯：我坚信......

There was a book written by Nate Silver called The Signal and the Noise.

内特·西尔弗（Nate Silver）写了一本书，名为《信号与噪声》。

Are you familiar with it?

你熟悉吗？

Timothy Davis: So, Nate Silver is the guy who created.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：所以，内特·西尔弗是创造者。

Timothy Davis: Yeah, yeah.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：是的，是的。

And in the book, he basically...

在书中，他基本上...

I'm going to use the word art, I'm going to use the word art, detailed the art of probability statistics and applied him to real world circumstances.

我将使用艺术这个词，我将使用艺术这个词，详细介绍概率统计的艺术并将其应用于现实世界的情况。

It included case studies with baseball, which of course I loved.

其中包括棒球的案例研究，我当然喜欢。

Elections, climate change, poker, stuff like that.

选举、气候变化、扑克等等。

And I liked that book.

我喜欢那本书。

It's kind of dense.

有点稠密。

But the thing I liked the most about it was the title.

但我最喜欢的是它的标题。

And just changing the title ever so slightly to signal not noise.

只是稍微改变一下标题，以表明不是噪音。

So typically, whenever I hire people, I want to hire smart people and kind of get out of their way.

因此，通常情况下，每当我雇用人员时，我都想雇用聪明的人，并避免妨碍他们。

But the biggest thing I want to focus on is what is your thought process when it comes to data?

但我最想关注的是您在数据方面的思维过程是什么？

Timothy Davis: Because I can teach anyone how to do Google ads.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：因为我可以教任何人如何做谷歌广告。

I can teach anyone how to do Meta ads.

我可以教任何人如何制作元广告。

That is not the hard part.

这不是最难的部分。

It is the data part that is the hard part because there is so much noise going on in those accounts.

数据部分是最困难的部分，因为这些账户中存在太多噪音。

They give you everything, which is great.

他们给你一切，这很棒。

It's great that they give you all this information, but you can have someone that's "Oh, but look at the reach, look at the frequency, look at the CPMs, look at the CPC, look at the conversion rate.

他们为您提供所有这些信息很好，但您可能会遇到这样的人：“哦，但是看看覆盖范围，看看频率，看看每千次展示费用，看看每次点击费用，看看转化率。

Look at the cost per lead.

查看每条销售线索的成本。

Look at the cost per MQL.

查看每 MQL 的成本。

Look at this." Hold on, that's a lot of noise you just said.

看看这个。”等等，你刚才说的噪音太大了。

So what is the signal and what is the noise?

那么什么是信号，什么是噪声呢？

And let's make sure we're focusing on the right signal versus the right noise.

让我们确保我们关注的是正确的信号而不是正确的噪声。

And that has to be a data person because there's a lot of data in these platforms.

那必须是数据人员，因为这些平台中有大量数据。

Lenny Rachitsky: \This episode is brought to you by Eppo.

Lenny Rachitsky：\本集由 Eppo 为您带来。

Eppo is a next generation A/B testing and feature management platform built by alums of Airbnb and Snowflake for modern growth teams.

Eppo 是由 Airbnb 和 Snowflake 的校友为现代增长团队构建的下一代 A/B 测试和功能管理平台。

Companies like Twitch, Miro, ClickUp, and DraftKings rely on Eppo to power their experiments.

Twitch、Miro、ClickUp 和 DraftKings 等公司依靠 Eppo 来支持他们的实验。

Experimentation is increasingly essential for driving growth and for understanding the performance of new features.

实验对于推动增长和了解新功能的性能越来越重要。

And Eppo helps you increase experimentation velocity while unlocking rigorous deep analysis in a way that no other commercial tool does.

Eppo 可以帮助您提高实验速度，同时以其他商业工具无法做到的方式解锁严格的深度分析。

When I was at Airbnb, one of the things that I loved most was our experimentation platform where I could set up experiments easily, troubleshoot issues, and analyze performance all on my own.

当我在 Airbnb 时，我最喜欢的事情之一就是我们的实验平台，我可以在其中轻松设置实验、解决问题并自行分析性能。

Eppo does all that and more with advanced statistical methods that can help you shape weeks off experiment time and accessible UI for diving deeper into performance and out of the box reporting that helps you avoid annoying, prolonged analytic cycles.

Eppo 可以通过先进的统计方法完成所有这些工作，并提供更多功能，帮助您缩短实验时间，并通过可访问的 UI 深入了解性能和开箱即用的报告，帮助您避免烦人的、延长的分析周期。

Lenny Rachitsky: Eppo also makes it easy for you to share experiment insights with your team, sparking ideas for the A/B testing flywheel.

Lenny Rachitsky：Eppo 还使您可以轻松地与您的团队分享实验见解，激发 A/B 测试飞轮的想法。

Eppo powers experimentation across every use case, including product growth, machine learning, monetization, and email marketing.

Eppo 为每个用例提供实验支持，包括产品增长、机器学习、货币化和电子邮件营销。

Check out Eppo at geteppo.com/lenny and 10X your experiment velocity.

请访问 geteppo.com/lenny 查看 Eppo，将您的实验速度提高 10 倍。

That's get E-P-P-O .com/lenny.

那就访问 E-P-P-O .com/lenny。

Lenny Rachitsky: Everyone I talked to that's worked with you is just like, "Timothy is incredible at working with tons of data and finding the things that matter." Someone told me that it actually comes from your love of baseball, that you just go crazy with stats and spreadsheets of baseball games, and players, and things like that.

Lenny Rachitsky：与我交谈过的与你共事的每个人都说，“蒂莫西在处理大量数据并找到重要的事情方面令人难以置信。”有人告诉我，这实际上来自于你对棒球的热爱，你只是对棒球比赛的统计数据和电子表格、球员以及类似的东西感到疯狂。

Is there something there that you could share that is interesting?

有什么有趣的事情可以分享吗？

Timothy Davis: Yeah.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：是的。

So I played baseball my whole life, but when you blow out your arm and you're as fast as a sea otter, it's not very conducive for you to continue chasing that dream.

所以我打了一辈子棒球，但是当你打出手臂并且你的速度像海獭一样快时，这不太利于你继续追逐那个梦想。

But the one thing I always liked was the stats.

但我一直喜欢的一件事是统计数据。

Even as a kid when I would watch baseball games on TV, it's like, what's this guy batting?

即使当我还是个孩子的时候，当我在电视上观看棒球比赛时，我就会想，这个家伙在击球吗？

How often is he getting on base?

他多久上垒一次？

How many RBIs?

有多少个打点员？

Like, "Oh, this guy is terrible average, but he has a lot of RBIs, so that means if there's a runner on base, he may not get a hit, but he's going to get that guy in.

就像，“哦，这个家伙的平均水平很糟糕，但他有很多打点，所以这意味着如果有一个跑垒者在垒上，他可能不会被安打，但他会让那个人上垒。

So you want to make sure you put him in the right spot in the batting order, so on and so forth." I could talk about that for hours.

所以你要确保把他放在击球顺序的正确位置，等等。”我可以谈论几个小时。

But again, that could be another thing where there's a lot of data available, which one should you focus on?

但同样，这可能是另一回事，有大量可用数据，您应该关注哪一个？

Timothy Davis: And ultimately, what is the optimization you're going to make to the lineup or to where you place fielders on the field to ensure that we're doing the right thing and becoming as efficient and effective as possible?

蒂莫西·戴维斯：最终，您将对阵容或外野手在场上的位置进行哪些优化，以确保我们做正确的事情并尽可能高效和有效？

As far as dealing with all that data, that is just, I would say, a skill I've learned over time.

就处理所有这些数据而言，我想说，这只是我随着时间的推移学到的一项技能。

Early in my career, whenever someone was like, "Oh, we have this new project.

在我职业生涯的早期，每当有人说，“哦，我们有这个新项目。

Who wants to work on it?" "I'll do it." I was always just eager like a sponge.

谁愿意从事这方面的工作？” “我会做的。”我总是像海绵一样渴望。

I wanted to get in as much stuff as possible.

我想尽可能多地参与进来。

I did SEO for a portion of my career.

我职业生涯的一部分时间是在做 SEO。

I did email marketing.

我做过电子邮件营销。

I did affiliates.

我做了附属公司。

And then, eventually, I remember the first time I saw paid, because again, I was doing SEO where I was like, "Yeah, we're going to do this and we think it's going to work." But we won't know for about six months.

然后，最终，我记得我第一次看到付费的时候，因为我又在做 SEO，我当时想，“是的，我们要做这个，我们认为它会起作用。”但大约六个月后我们才会知道。

Timothy Davis: Someone showed me the paid platform.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：有人向我展示了付费平台。

I was like, "Wait, you know this is the keyword you're bidding on.

我当时想，“等等，你知道这是你要出价的关键词。

This is how many times the ad was shown, how many people clicked on it?

这是广告展示了多少次，有多少人点击了它？

How many...

有多少...

Wow, this is amazing.

哇，这太棒了。

I need to get more into this." And that's just kind of where it started.

我需要更多地了解这一点。”这就是一切的开始。

And when I usually hire people and we go through the interview process, I make sure that they can be data focused.

当我通常雇用人员并进行面试过程时，我确保他们能够以数据为中心。

Really, it's just ensuring that we're focusing on that signal and not the noise.

实际上，这只是确保我们关注的是信号而不是噪音。

And one of the interview questions I usually ask is I throw a bunch of data points at them and then say, "Out of all that, what would you do to optimize the account?" And more times than not that they're just overwhelmed.

我通常问的面试问题之一是我向他们扔一堆数据点，然后说：“除此之外，你会采取什么措施来优化帐户？”很多时候他们只是不知所措。

But the people that I like are like, " Well, what's the purpose of the campaign?"

但我喜欢的人会说，“那么，这次活动的目的是什么？”

Timothy Davis: "The purpose of the campaign is to drive conversions." "Okay, well, I would focus here, focus on how many clicks we're getting, and how many conversions, are we targeting the right people?" Because who cares about how many impressions you're getting?

蒂莫西·戴维斯：“该活动的目的是推动转化。” “好吧，我会重点关注我们获得的点击次数和转化次数，我们是否瞄准了正确的用户？”因为谁在乎你获得了多少印象？

Who cares about the reach?

谁关心影响范围？

Who cares about the frequency?

谁关心频率？

If the goal of the campaign is to get the conversions, that's what we should be doing.

如果营销活动的目标是获得转化，那么这就是我们应该做的。

If it was awareness, it's how many people saw it.

如果是意识，那就是有多少人看到了它。

If it was a consideration, how many people were getting into the funnel and are considering us from a white paper download or a demo as the product solution that they're looking for.

如果这是一个考虑因素，有多少人进入渠道并考虑通过白皮书下载或演示将我们作为他们正在寻找的产品解决方案。

Lenny Rachitsky: That's a great segue to the next question I wanted to ask you, which is just metrics that you love to focus on, pay attention to when you're helping people with paid ads.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是我想问你的下一个问题的一个很好的延续，这只是你喜欢关注的指标，当你通过付费广告帮助人们时要注意。

A lot of people think about CAC, a lot of people think about return on ad spend, LTV to CAC.

很多人会考虑 CAC，很多人会考虑广告支出回报、CAC 的生命周期价值 (LTV)。

I know it really depends on the goals as you said, but I guess, is there anything that you find is like, forget these metrics, these are kind of the bucket that you focus on most?

我知道这确实取决于您所说的目标，但我想，您是否发现有什么类似的情况，忘记这些指标，这些是您最关注的目标？

Timothy Davis: Yeah, so for those metrics, I would say, I really hope you have a great finance partner.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：是的，对于这些指标，我想说，我真的希望你有一个伟大的财务合作伙伴。

Shout out to Courtney and Nick the fantastic finance partners I have at Shopify.

向 Courtney 和 Nick 致敬，他们是我在 Shopify 的出色财务合作伙伴。

Nick's not there anymore.

尼克已经不在了。

Sad cry emoji.

悲伤哭泣的表情符号。

But Courtney, we're able to collaborate on those things.

但是考特尼，我们能够在这些事情上进行合作。

Understand, this is the investment we're putting in, this is the expected return, this is the CAC that we can basically put a guardrail on.

明白，这是我们投入的投资，这是预期回报，这是我们基本上可以设置护栏的 CAC。

You have to be within.

你必须在里面。

So, hopefully you have a really strong financial partner you can use for those.

因此，希望您有一个真正强大的财务合作伙伴可以帮助您实现这些目标。

But as far as the stuff that I focus on, there are things that whenever we're looking at accounts, we'll kind of hyperfocus on.

但就我关注的事情而言，每当我们查看账户时，我们都会过度关注一些事情。

For example, Google will give you information about what is going on with your ad copy and how to ultimately show as often as possible.

例如，Google 会向您提供有关广告文案进展情况以及最终如何尽可能频繁地展示的信息。

What I'm showing here is a visual of brand versus non-brand when it comes to expected click-through rate, landing page experience, and ad relevance.

我在这里展示的是品牌与非品牌在预期点击率、登陆页面体验和广告相关性方面的对比。

Timothy Davis: The reason I like building reports like this is because it'll kind of show you where your hole in the ship is.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：我喜欢构建这样的报告的原因是它会告诉你你的船洞在哪里。

If you look on the left side expected click-through rate, 75% above average.

如果您查看左侧的预期点击率，则高于平均水平 75%。

Landing page experience, 84% above average.

登陆页面体验，高于平均水平 84%。

Then you get down to ad relevance, a lot more colors than there are green, only 35% above average.

然后你开始考虑广告相关性，颜色比绿色多得多，仅比平均水平高 35%。

So, for your brand ad copy, the clear direction you have from the data that's available to you is jump into the account and make it more relevant.

因此，对于您的品牌广告文案，您从可用数据中获得的明确方向是跳转到帐户并使其更具相关性。

That will improve your ad strength.

这将提高您的广告效果。

And once you improve your ad strength, that will improve your quality score.

一旦您提高了广告强度，您的质量得分就会提高。

And more times than, I think, it's a 12% increase in the number of impressions you can get if you increase from a below average to an above average for the data that's available here.

我认为，如果您将此处提供的数据从低于平均水平增加到高于平均水平，您可以获得的展示次数会增加 12%。

And then, on the non-brand side, clear expected click-through rate, you really need to be working on.

然后，在非品牌方面，明确的预期点击率是您真正需要努力的。

Timothy Davis: And that data is also available here that you can kind of see.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：这些数据也可以在这里找到，你可以看到。

I put in red the one for brand, your quality score being at a nine, but your average CPC is $8.

我用红色表示品牌，您的质量得分为 9，但您的平均每次点击费用为 8 美元。

That is very interesting.

这很有趣。

It should be, the higher your CPC is, the lower your CPC should be.

应该是，您的 CPC 越高，您的 CPC 应该越低。

So that is an investigation that's like, "Hey, here's a signal, let's go do a deep dive." So there's further reports that you could look at.

所以这是一项调查，就像“嘿，这是一个信号，让我们深入研究一下。”所以还有更多的报道你可以看看。

Looking at the ad strength again, average, excellent, good, or poor.

再看广告力度，一般、优秀、良好、较差。

You can see clearly on the non-brand side doing really well.

你可以清楚地看到非品牌方面做得非常好。

They're doing really well here.

他们在这里做得很好。

Most of their ads, 46 of their ads are excellent and a bulk of their spend is going there.

他们的大部分广告，其中 46 个广告都非常出色，他们的大部分支出都花在了那里。

But if we look on the brand side, you have one ad, one ad that you could go in and just click pause on, that is a poor.

但如果我们从品牌方面来看，你有一个广告，一个你可以进去然后点击暂停的广告，那就很糟糕了。

And look at that CPC $7.

看看每次点击费用 7 美元。

Timothy Davis: So just turning that ad off by itself, not only will...

蒂莫西·戴维斯：所以，只要自行关闭该广告，不仅会......

I'm a firm believer in that there's an account level quality score, not just necessarily a keyword or an ad quality score.

我坚信存在帐户级质量得分，而不仅仅是关键字或广告质量得分。

So, just turning this one off and removing it from the account, this one ad could dramatically improve your performance.

因此，只需关闭这一广告并将其从帐户中删除，这一广告就可以显着提高您的效果。

And then, Google actually tells you what you need to do to increase those strength things.

然后，谷歌实际上会告诉你需要做什么来增强这些力量。

So this report is ultimately powered by this one.

所以这份报告最终是由这个报告提供支持的。

So for your ad strength improvements, they'll tell you, "Try adding a few more unique headlines or unpinning some of the ad sets.

因此，为了提高您的广告强度，他们会告诉您，“尝试添加一些更独特的标题或取消固定一些广告集。

Try including more keywords in your descriptions or your headlines." So-

尝试在您的描述或标题中包含更多关键字。”所以——

Timothy Davis: Including more keywords in your descriptions or your headlines.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：在您的描述或标题中包含更多关键字。

So they're actually giving you this information, but more times than not, I just feel like people are just missing this and just not taking action on it.

所以他们实际上是在给你这些信息，但很多时候，我只是觉得人们只是错过了这一点，只是没有采取行动。

So definitely some stuff available within the account that will help you focus on that signal versus the noise that you could be just getting from the clicks, the impressions and all those things that are available to you.

因此，帐户中肯定有一些可用的东西可以帮助您专注于该信号，而不是您可能从点击、印象和所有可用的东西中获得的噪音。

Lenny Rachitsky: That was amazing.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

For folks not watching on YouTube, you pulled up actual reports from, I think, imagine, past clients, is that what the data was from?

对于那些没有在 YouTube 上观看的人，我认为，想象一下，您从过去的客户那里提取了实际报告，这就是数据的来源吗？

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, so actual reports from past clients of how you evaluate, and this is Google Ads, basically.

Lenny Rachitsky：好的，过去客户的实际报告告诉你如何评估，这基本上就是 Google Ads。

Lenny Rachitsky: Google Ads data.

Lenny Rachitsky：Google Ads 数据。

Incredible.

极好的。

Okay.

好的。

And so within those reports, you had poor, excellent.

因此，在这些报告中，有很差的，也有很好的。

How do you determine when something is going great?

您如何确定某件事何时进展顺利？

Is that something you set, like if it's above this threshold?

这是你设置的吗，比如是否高于这个阈值？

Is that a benchmark you have, or is that Google telling you, "This is poor, or this..."

这是你拥有的基准，还是谷歌告诉你，“这很差，或者这个......”

Timothy Davis: Yeah, so that's Google telling you.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：是的，这就是谷歌告诉你的。

Timothy Davis: There's sometimes where you'll work really, really hard to take that poor to an average, that average to an excellent, and there's just not a whole lot you can do sometimes.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：有时你会非常非常努力地工作，以将较差的水平提高到平均水平，将平均水平提高到优秀，但有时你无能为力。

It kind of is what it is.

事情就是这样。

But I would argue more times than not, people are not doing those things to improve their ad strength.

但我多次会争辩说，人们做这些事情并不是为了提高他们的广告效果。

So just if you have the change history available in every account, in Meta, in Google, if people are doing the test to try and improve and get better, great.

因此，如果你在每个帐户、Meta、Google 中都有可用的更改历史记录，如果人们正在进行测试以尝试改进并变得更好，那就太好了。

You have the right people working.

你有合适的人在工作。

But if not, that's a clear indication that there's definitely room for improvement.

但如果没有，这清楚地表明肯定还有改进的空间。

Lenny Rachitsky: Something that someone asked on Twitter is for benchmarks around any of the stuff.

Lenny Rachitsky：有人在 Twitter 上询问关于任何东西的基准。

How do you know when your CPC is good?

您如何知道您的每次点击费用何时合适？

I guess you just look at...

我猜你只是看...

Do you look at Google telling you it's excellent versus poor?

你会看到谷歌告诉你它是优秀的还是糟糕的？

How do you know if your conversion rate is good?

如何知道您的转化率是否良好？

How do you know if your CAC is good?

你怎么知道你的CAC是否良好？

Timothy Davis: Yeah, every industry and every company is going to be different, healthcare, lawyers, those are some of the highest cost and average CPCs I've seen.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：是的，每个行业和每个公司都会有所不同，医疗保健、律师，这些是我见过的成本和平均每次点击费用最高的一些。

If I was to compare that industry, say to a B2B industry, it would not be very good at all.

如果我要比较那个行业，比如说B2B行业，那根本就不是很好。

Honestly, what I would tell the user to do, every single platform has partners available, more times than not, they're kind of like salespeople.

老实说，我会告诉用户要做的，每个平台都有可用的合作伙伴，很多时候，他们有点像销售人员。

I actually really like the partners that we have at Shopify, because I do feel that they are partners.

我实际上非常喜欢 Shopify 的合作伙伴，因为我确实觉得他们是合作伙伴。

Shout out to Francisco at Google, and Sami and Alana at Meta.

向 Google 的 Francisco、Meta 的 Sami 和 Alana 致敬。

And Nick, and Sam, and Brian at LinkedIn, in case they all hear this.

还有 LinkedIn 的 Nick、Sam 和 Brian，以防他们都听到这个。

But I think they're really great partners, and they will give you that information.

但我认为他们确实是很棒的合作伙伴，他们会给你这些信息。

Timothy Davis: They will actually say, "If you give me the five people you consider to be your top competitors, I will tell you if you are above or below a certain threshold." Now they can't tell you CAC because they would have to have transparency into conversions.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：他们实际上会说，“如果你给我你认为是你的最佳竞争对手的五个人，我会告诉你你是否高于或低于某个阈值。”现在他们无法告诉您 CAC，因为他们必须保持转换的透明度。

But click-through rate, conversion rate, cost per click, things like that, they will give you that information because they will anonymize it, so you won't know who is who.

但是点击率、转化率、每次点击费用等等，他们会给你这些信息，因为他们会匿名，所以你不会知道谁是谁。

If you say, "My competitor's monday.com," they won't say, "monday.com has a click-through rate of 5%." They won't tell you that.

如果您说“我的竞争对手是 monday.com”，他们不会说“monday.com 的点击率为 5%”。他们不会告诉你这些。

But they will tell you, "Of the competitors you gave us, and we added three more in just to say, hey, we found some people." And also to where if you only give them two, you can be like, "Oh, it's one or the other." That they'll give you that information because they want you to succeed.

但他们会告诉你，“在你给我们的竞争对手中，我们又添加了三个，只是为了说，嘿，我们找到了一些人。”而且如果你只给他们两个，你可能会说，“哦，这是一个或另一个。”他们会给你这些信息，因为他们希望你成功。

Because if you succeed, you spend more money on their platform.

因为如果你成功了，你就会在他们的平台上花更多的钱。

Timothy Davis: So if you find out your average CPC is really high, take the actions that are in the account that tell you what you can do to lower it.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：因此，如果您发现您的平均每次点击费用非常高，请采取帐户中告诉您可以采取哪些措施来降低平均每次点击费用的操作。

But if you find out that you have a lower CPC, you're like, "Oh, great, I thought that was worse." And then you can communicate that internally to your team and say, "Hey, our average CPCs may seem high, but in reality we got with our partners, and we are on par with the industry."

但如果你发现你的每次点击费用较低，你会想，“哦，太好了，我认为这更糟糕。”然后您可以在内部向您的团队传达这一点，并说：“嘿，我们的平均每次点击费用可能看起来很高，但实际上我们与合作伙伴达成了一致，我们与行业持平。”

Lenny Rachitsky: Got it.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：明白了。

So the advice is, don't seek generic benchmarks for any of these metrics.

所以建议是，不要为这些指标寻求通用基准。

You can talk to your rep at Google, Facebook, LinkedIn, et cetera.

您可以与 Google、Facebook、LinkedIn 等的代表交谈。

And they'll give you essentially the numbers-

他们会给你基本的数字-

Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

Okay, going back to the report you just showed, is that a report you developed custom that gives you, here's the most important stuff to pay attention to?

好的，回到您刚刚展示的报告，这是您自定义开发的报告，它为您提供了最需要注意的内容？

Or is it basically an export from Google Ad Manager, and...

或者它基本上是从 Google Ad Manager 导出的，并且...

Timothy Davis: So these are all exports, so that this is just the visualization of the data that's available.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：所以这些都是导出的，所以这只是可用数据的可视化。

So this all data is available in every account.

因此，所有数据在每个帐户中都可用。

This is data available in the account, this is data available in the account.

这是帐户中可用的数据，这是帐户中可用的数据。

Now in saying that, there are more reports that we get into, like impression sharing frequency.

话虽如此，我们还收到了更多报告，例如印象共享频率。

This is something I tend to look at, that not a lot of other people do.

这是我倾向于关注的事情，但其他人很少这样做。

It's not about showing as often as possible because that's what impression share tells you, and that's kind of like ego marketing.

这并不是要尽可能频繁地展示，因为这就是展示份额告诉你的，这有点像自我营销。

I want to be number one, I want to be there all the time.

我想成为第一，我想一直在那里。

It's about showing to the right person as often as possible.

这是为了尽可能频繁地向合适的人展示。

Timothy Davis: Instead of thinking about being on top of the page, you should think about serving the right user, which can be measured with our click share.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：您不应该考虑位于页面顶部，而应该考虑为正确的用户提供服务，这可以通过我们的点击份额来衡量。

And then Google will put us on top of the page, which we can see through our top impression share.

然后谷歌会把我们放在页面的顶部，我们可以通过我们的最高展示份额看到这一点。

That's what this whole visualization is here for, where I feel like a lot of people don't do this type of visualization.

这就是整个可视化的目的，我觉得很多人不做这种类型的可视化。

And this can be done by leveraging all the user data available on Google, such as demographics, locations, if any audiences, in-market audiences.

这可以通过利用谷歌上可用的所有用户数据来完成，例如人口统计、位置、（如果有的话）受众群体、有市场的受众群体。

Testing different bid strategies and more.

测试不同的出价策略等。

Timothy Davis: So the data's readily available, but it's just making the visualization a little bit more digestible.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：所以数据很容易获得，但这只是使可视化更容易理解。

And the reason that I actually have two here to show is because this is an example of when I was working on an account back in 2023, where we started making some changes.

我之所以在这里展示两个，是因为这是我在 2023 年处理一个帐户时的一个例子，当时我们开始进行一些更改。

And you can see that, clearly, our impression share, I would say was baseline.

你可以清楚地看到，我想说的是，我们的印象份额是基线。

It didn't really change too much, but look at our click share going up.

它并没有真正改变太多，但看看我们的点击份额在上升。

Because now again, we're talking more to the right people, not necessarily just everyone, generic people.

因为现在我们再次与合适的人交谈，不一定只是每个人，一般人。

Versus this campaign that was...

与此活动相比...

This was the test and this was the control, and you can clearly see that we were talking to a lot of people, but no one cared about what we were talking about.

这是测试，这是对照，你可以清楚地看到我们正在和很多人交谈，但没有人关心我们在谈论什么。

So this was an easy test to call and just say, "This one's performing a lot better." And then verifying the other metrics still look good, conversion rate, number of conversions, stuff like that.

因此，这是一个很容易调用的测试，只需说：“这个性能好多了。”然后验证其他指标看起来仍然不错，比如转化率、转化次数等等。

This one was the clear winner, so we went in this direction.

这是明显的赢家，所以我们朝这个方向前进。

Lenny Rachitsky: This is super cool.

Lenny Rachitsky：这太酷了。

I love that you're showing this.

我喜欢你展示这个。

And again, plug for YouTube to actually see the charts you're talking about.

再次，插入 YouTube 以实际查看您正在谈论的图表。

I see one more slide on this deck.

我在这个平台上看到了另外一张幻灯片。

I'm curious, what's there?

我很好奇，那儿有什么？

Timothy Davis: Yeah, so this one, I'm hoping you have show notes that we can give a shout-out to somebody.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：是的，所以这个，我希望你有演出笔记，我们可以向某人大声喊叫。

Timothy Davis: Yep.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：是的。

There's a website called PPC Hero.

有一个名为 PPC Hero 的网站。

What I usually tell people is, "Terrible name, great content." The actual website used to be a little bit more cartoonish with superheroes on it, but now it's, they've refined it.

我通常告诉人们的是，“名字很糟糕，内容很棒。”实际的网站过去有点卡通化，上面有超级英雄，但现在他们已经对其进行了改进。

But the writer there, his name's Jacob Brown.

但那里的作家，他的名字叫雅各布·布朗。

This is what he calls the true competition metric.

这就是他所说的真正的竞争指标。

And again, this is why I highly recommend we give people the link to the article because this does get a little dense.

再说一次，这就是为什么我强烈建议我们给人们提供这篇文章的链接，因为这确实有点密集。

So what he does is that he creates four new metrics with the Auction Insights that are available.

因此，他所做的是利用可用的拍卖洞察创建四个新指标。

And two of those metrics are position above rate when we show, and amount of times they show and we don't.

其中两个指标的位置高于我们展示时的速率，以及它们展示而我们不展示的次数。

Added together, and it will show how often a competitor ranks above you in all auctions you're available for.

加在一起，它将显示竞争对手在您可以参加的所有拍卖中排名高于您的频率。

Using this type of lens is an effective way to identify genuine threats.

使用这种类型的镜头是识别真正威胁的有效方法。

Timothy Davis: Not that just, this data can be used to gain comprehensive insights like determining your position and impression share, but by creating a baseline that you can see how this data changes over time through different bid strategies, keyword ad copy optimizations and more.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：不仅如此，这些数据还可以用来获得全面的见解，例如确定您的排名和展示次数份额，而且通过创建一个基线，您可以通过不同的出价策略、关键字广告文案优化等了解这些数据如何随着时间的推移而变化。

This is a very, very powerful one, because I do know a lot of people are always concerned about, "What are my competitors doing?

这是一个非常非常强大的问题，因为我知道很多人总是关心，“我的竞争对手在做什么？

How are they doing it?

他们是怎么做的？

Why are they doing it?" And with all the smart bidding currently available...

他们为什么要这么做？”凭借当前可用的所有智能出价......

Timothy Davis: Back in my day, it was all manual bid, so you could change the bid ever so slightly, and then be like, "Oh, now my competitor's showing above me," and this is even before Google gave us Auction Insights data.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：在我那个时代，都是手动出价，所以你可以稍微改变出价，然后说，“哦，现在我的竞争对手显示在我之上，”这甚至是在谷歌向我们提供拍卖洞察数据之前。

This is now available to us in the platform.

现在我们可以在平台上使用此功能。

Using this report will actually identify a true threat, as opposed to making an assumption based on personalization that maybe you're seeing when you Google a keyword, or using a tool like Semrush that ultimately is saying, "Oh, this person's appearing above you.

使用此报告实际上可以识别真正的威胁，而不是基于个性化做出假设，您可能会在谷歌搜索关键字时看到，或者使用像 Semrush 这样的工具最终会说：“哦，这个人出现在您的上方。

Well, let's run this report and see if it's a genuine threat," as opposed to just maybe ego marketing going on.

好吧，让我们运行这份报告，看看这是否是真正的威胁，”而不是仅仅进行自我营销。

Lenny Rachitsky: Super cool.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：超级酷。

And this comes from PPC Hero, is this what you're saying?

这是来自 PPC Hero，你是说这个吗？

Lenny Rachitsky: Cool.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：酷。

We'll definitely link to that.

我们一定会链接到那个。

Are there any other tools or workflows that you find really helpful in analyzing this endless amount of data?

您是否发现任何其他工具或工作流程对分析海量数据确实有帮助？

Timothy Davis: Please, audience, if you are using AI in this way, let me know because a lot of this stuff I do can be a little manual and can be a little time-consuming.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：观众们，如果您以这种方式使用人工智能，请告诉我，因为我所做的很多事情可能需要一些手动操作，并且可能有点耗时。

If they've found ways to automate through AI where I can provide the information that isn't sensitive, that they will make it a lot cleaner, and a lot more digestible, let me know.

如果他们找到了通过人工智能实现自动化的方法，让我可以提供不敏感的信息，他们会让信息变得更干净、更容易理解，请告诉我。

But a lot of the things, I have templates that you can load the data into, and it will just automatically give you the result from it.

但很多事情，我都有模板，您可以将数据加载到其中，它会自动为您提供结果。

But yeah, right now, it is a little manual, but if there's a way to automate this through AI, please, users, contact me on LinkedIn and let me know.

但是，是的，现在还需要一些手动操作，但如果有一种方法可以通过人工智能实现自动化，请用户在 LinkedIn 上与我联系并告诉我。

Lenny Rachitsky: Sounds like a startup opportunity right there.

Lenny Rachitsky：听起来像是一个创业机会。

Lenny Rachitsky: Sweet.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太好了。

Okay, let's move in a slightly different direction.

好吧，让我们朝稍微不同的方向前进。

Attribution, what a sexy, exciting topic.

归因，多么性感、令人兴奋的话题。

So attribution, basically it's how do you assign credit to a channel and to a campaign, so that you know where growth is coming from, what's working?

所以归因，基本上就是你如何将功劳分配给一个渠道和一个营销活动，这样你就知道增长来自哪里，什么在起作用？

What's the state of attribution today?

今天的归因状况如何？

What do you find is helpful?

您认为什么有帮助？

How do people do attribution well in today's world?

在当今世界，人们如何做好归因？

Timothy Davis: Yeah, I'm a big believer and proponent in multi-touch.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：是的，我是多点触控的坚定信徒和支持者。

I fall into the camp of more time decay.

我陷入了更多时间衰退的阵营。

Historically, the research I've done, users tend to forget very quickly where they first found your brand.

从历史上看，根据我所做的研究，用户往往很快就会忘记他们第一次找到你的品牌的地方。

Yes, you should get credit because this is the first time they saw your brand or the first time they interacted with it, for sure, let's give you some credit for that.

是的，您应该获得荣誉，因为这是他们第一次看到您的品牌或第一次与之互动，当然，让我们为此给予您一些荣誉。

But definitely not the reason that they ultimately converted.

但绝对不是他们最终皈依的原因。

Linear is fine as well, but overall, I do think attribution by itself is biased.

线性也很好，但总的来说，我确实认为归因本身是有偏见的。

It does not answer the question of whether the person clicking on or seeing an ad would've converted anyways, even in the absence of that ad.

它没有回答点击或看到广告的人是否会转化的问题，即使没有该广告。

Timothy Davis: This is why numerous companies like Netflix and eBay have done studies to get an understanding of the incrementality of paid advertising campaigns, whether that's conducting GeoX or Conversion Lift tests at important slices of the marketing channel.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：这就是为什么 Netflix 和 eBay 等众多公司都进行了研究，以了解付费广告活动的增量，无论是在营销渠道的重要部分进行 GeoX 测试还是转化提升测试。

I know eBay was very popular when they did that experiment.

我知道 eBay 在进行这项实验时非常受欢迎。

I think it was like 2012, and I'll have a link for you for that as well.

我想那是 2012 年的事，我也会给你一个链接。

Where they ultimately decided to cut almost all of their brand spend, because they found that users were already going to find them through organic anyway, so they were just kind of throwing money out the window.

他们最终决定削减几乎所有的品牌支出，因为他们发现用户无论如何都会通过有机方式找到他们，所以他们只是把钱扔到窗外。

And it was really hard for competitors to get their ads at the top of the page because their quality scores were so low.

竞争对手很难将他们的广告放在页面顶部，因为他们的质量得分非常低。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, so multi-touch is the way you like to think about it.

Lenny Rachitsky：好的，多点触控就是您喜欢的思考方式。

Basically give credits to all of the channels that you detected the user saw your ad on, and less credit if it was further back in time.

基本上，您检测到用户在其上看到您的广告的所有渠道都会获得积分，如果时间更早，则积分会减少。

Lenny Rachitsky: And then in terms of tooling, is there tools you love?

Lenny Rachitsky：那么在工具方面，有您喜欢的工具吗？

Is it stuff you build in-house generally?

通常是您内部构建的东西吗？

How do people go about doing this sort of stuff?

人们如何去做这类事情？

Timothy Davis: Yeah, I don't know if I want to say I have been fortunate or not, but most of the companies I've worked with, like the big companies of the world, the Pinterests, the Shopifys, the IBMs of the world tend to build things in-house.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：是的，我不知道我是否想说我很幸运，但我合作过的大多数公司，比如世界上的大公司、Pinterest、Shopify、IBM 都倾向于在内部构建东西。

So from a third-party tool, unfortunately, I don't have a whole lot of go-tos for that.

因此，不幸的是，对于第三方工具，我没有太多可用的方法。

So again, either that's a, I've been fortunate or I've been sheltered.

再说一遍，要么是我很幸运，要么是我受到了庇护。

Lenny Rachitsky: And then, are there tools that you see people use, or is it just really nothing amazing out there?

Lenny Rachitsky：那么，您看到人们使用哪些工具，或者它们真的没什么神奇的吗？

Timothy Davis: Yeah, none that I've seen that's like, "Oh wow, that's amazing." I will always say, make sure you're trying to leverage the in-platform tools because the biggest thing with performance marketing is the signal you're sending the platform.

蒂莫西·戴维斯（Timothy Davis）：是的，我从未见过这样的情况，“哇哦，太棒了。”我总是会说，确保您尝试利用平台内工具，因为效果营销最重要的是您向平台发送的信号。

Because if you are telling the platform, "Oh, I want to get more of the users that are doing this action," it's going to do a really good job of giving you that.

因为如果你告诉平台，“哦，我想让更多的用户执行此操作”，它会很好地满足你的要求。

But if that action doesn't equal business results, you're not helping yourself at the end of the day.

但如果这一行动不等于业务成果，那么最终您并没有帮助自己。

You're giving it, again, a lot of noise instead of the right signal.

你又给了它很多噪音而不是正确的信号。

So try and leverage the in-platform tools.

因此，请尝试利用平台内工具。

Or if there is a tool you're using, make sure it does allow third-party integration through the Google, Meta, TikToks of the world.

或者，如果您正在使用某个工具，请确保它确实允许通过 Google、Meta、TikTok 进行第三方集成。

Lenny Rachitsky: Then let's talk about incrementality.

Lenny Rachitsky：那么我们来谈谈增量。

You mentioned this idea of how do you know if the money you spent led to incremental growth that wouldn't have happened if you didn't run that ad.

您提到了这样的想法：您如何知道您所花的钱是否会带来增量增长，而如果您不投放该广告，这种增长就不会发生。

Is there any advice there, anything you've seen about just how to think about incrementality correctly, and not just give yourself all this credit for stuff that would've happened anyway?

对于如何正确思考增量，而不是仅仅把所有这些信用都归咎于无论如何都会发生的事情，你有什么建议吗？

Timothy Davis: Yeah, I mean, there are many ways to judge the effectiveness of growth overall.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：是的，我的意思是，有很多方法可以判断整体增长的有效性。

Like some of the stuff we talked about before, brand metrics, awareness, recall, things along those lines.

就像我们之前讨论过的一些东西一样，品牌指标、认知度、召回率等等。

There are also, I know some companies look at leading indicators like visits, and clicks, or tribute, which of the efforts are linked to or perceived drivers of actions.

我知道有些公司还会关注访问量、点击量或贡献等领先指标，这些指标与行动的驱动因素相关或被感知。

Like leads, conversions to prospect, prospect to scale.

就像销售线索、转化为潜在客户、潜在客户扩大规模一样。

But really the results should be coming from either that GeoX or Geo experiment or Conversion Lift.

但实际上结果应该来自 GeoX 或 Geo 实验或 Conversion Lift。

The results of those experiments should ultimately fuel the plans for what we call IAF, incrementality adjusted factor, and will allow you to be more precise and how efficient each channel is.

这些实验的结果应该最终推动我们所说的 IAF（增量调整因子）的计划，并使您能够更加精确以及每个渠道的效率。

Timothy Davis: Ideally, by region, sometimes you just have a holistic of like, "This is how Meta is, this is how YouTube is." But if you don't have it by region, don't fret, it's fine, just have it by platform.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：理想情况下，按地区划分，有时你会有一个整体，“Meta 就是这样，YouTube 就是这样。”但如果您没有按地区划分，也不必担心，没关系，只需按平台划分即可。

And kind of like what does that look in practice?

这在实践中看起来有点像什么？

When you're running a Conversion Lift test, you intentionally do not show your ad to some users when you win an auction, and instead Google shows the next bidders' ad.

当您运行转化提升测试时，您在赢得竞价时故意不向某些用户展示您的广告，而是 Google 展示下一个出价者的广告。

This is your control group, and adds up to some opportunity costs that is estimated in terms of impression share percentage, as well as spend holdback.

这是您的对照组，并且会增加一些机会成本，这些机会成本是根据展示份额百分比以及支出抑制来估计的。

Spend holdback is like how much money you will not spend because of this test.

支出保留就像您因为这次测试而不会花多少钱。

Timothy Davis: And all of the platforms are willing to partner with you on this, because Facebook knows this, LinkedIn knows this.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：所有平台都愿意在这方面与你合作，因为 Facebook 知道这一点，LinkedIn 也知道这一点。

All of them know that they are very visually-based creative assets that are not getting as much credit as they deserve.

他们所有人都知道，他们是非常基于视觉的创意资产，但没有得到应有的认可。

So if you go to any of them, if say you don't have a dedicated rep you can call, and if you ask for this, more times than not, they are willing to partner with you in saying that, if you're not spending enough, they probably will not help you with this.

因此，如果你去找他们中的任何一个，如果说你没有可以打电话的专门代表，如果你提出这样的要求，很多时候他们愿意与你合作，说如果你没有花足够的钱，他们可能不会帮助你。

Because there are certain spend thresholds you do need to meet.

因为您确实需要满足某些支出阈值。

But I would say at least start there.

但我想说至少从这里开始。

And also if you're not spending more than I would say 50K a month in the platform, doing this is going to be a lot more work than you're going to get result from, you're just not going to have enough signal there.

而且，如果你每月在平台上花费的费用不超过我所说的 5 万，那么这样做的工作量将比你获得的结果要多得多，你只是在那里没有足够的信号。

Lenny Rachitsky: So basically don't worry about running incrementality tests when you're-

Lenny Rachitsky：所以基本上不用担心运行增量测试，当你-

Timothy Davis: Yeah, when you're starting out.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：是的，当你刚开始的时候。

Lenny Rachitsky: Got it.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：明白了。

Okay.

好的。

And so basically to understand actual incrementality, every platform has a way for you to actually test it on the platform, and the team there can help you run it.

因此，基本上，为了了解实际的增量，每个平台都有一种方法供您在平台上实际测试它，并且那里的团队可以帮助您运行它。

Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

Okay.

好的。

Let's go back to talking about team structure and how to build your own performance marketing team.

我们回过头来说一下团队架构，以及如何打造自己的绩效营销团队。

So we talked about the first person that you hire and the advice there was someone that's very, understands how to find signal in noise.

因此，我们讨论了您雇用的第一个人以及非常了解如何在噪音中找到信号的人的建议。

So there's that one person, and your advice there was maybe around like 50K.

就这样一个人，你的建议可能大约有 50K。

Was that like an actual threshold that you usually recommend, or is that just like an example?

这是否像您通常推荐的实际阈值，或者只是一个示例？

Timothy Davis: Every business is slightly different.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：每个行业都略有不同。

I mean, if they're well funded, 50K may not...

我的意思是，如果他们资金充足，5万可能不会......

the threshold may be higher.

门槛可能会更高。

But yeah, everyone's different.

但是，是的，每个人都是不同的。

50K may be, like if somebody said...

50K 可能是，就像有人说......

If you were to just say, "Hey, give me a number," I would say, "50K to start having those conversations." Because if you're at 50K, say for the month of June, great, it's going to take us three months to hire someone anyway, so at least start the conversations now.

如果你只是说，“嘿，给我一个号码，”我会说，“50K 开始进行这些对话。”因为如果你的工资是 50K，比如说 6 月份，那太好了，无论如何我们都需要三个月的时间来雇用一个人，所以至少现在就开始对话。

Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

Okay.

好的。

What do the first three to five hires look like generally, that you recommend for scaling internally from its marketing?

您建议通过营销进行内部扩展的前三到五名员工通常是什么样子？

Timothy Davis: So the first thing, like we said, someone data-driven that can get into the platforms.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：所以第一件事，就像我们说的，数据驱动的人可以进入平台。

The next is going to be creative.

接下来就要发挥创意了。

Because I need those two now working hand-in-hand, making sure the creative is matching the tone and also the performance that we're trying to achieve as a business.

因为我现在需要这两者携手合作，确保创意与基调以及我们作为企业想要实现的绩效相匹配。

And then third would be a dedicated data scientist, a fully dedicated person.

第三是一名敬业的数据科学家，一个完全敬业的人。

Because they can help you with things like the incrementality testing.

因为他们可以帮助您完成增量测试等事情。

They can help create reports that will ultimately make everyone's lives better.

他们可以帮助创建最终使每个人的生活变得更好的报告。

They will be able to build analyses that as a generalist will not be able to do yourself.

他们将能够进行作为多面手自己无法完成的分析。

There's a saying of like, "I'm not a data scientist, but I like to play one online." Because what they do, they ultimately make us look really good.

有一种说法是这样的：“我不是数据科学家，但我喜欢在线玩。”因为他们所做的最终让我们看起来非常好。

Because we're ultimately the ones reporting on the performance of it, but they were the ones that helped build that environment, and build all those things for us to succeed.

因为我们最终是报告其绩效的人，但他们是帮助构建该环境并为我们成功构建所有这些东西的人。

Lenny Rachitsky: And then in terms of the creative person, is that like a graphic designer?

Lenny Rachitsky：那么就创意人员而言，这就像平面设计师吗？

Is it like a marketing person?

是不是像营销人员？

What's the actual skill set there?

那里的实际技能是什么？

Timothy Davis: It would be more graphic design/branding.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：这将是更多的图形设计/品牌推广。

The reason for that is because if you have a good marketing mix, you're going to have...

原因是如果你有一个良好的营销组合，你就会......

If we keep it to a three-step funnel of awareness, consideration, purchase, you're going to need to build some brand equity in a specific direction.

如果我们将其保持在认知、考虑、购买的三步漏斗中，那么您将需要在特定方向上建立一些品牌资产。

You're going to need to make sure you're communicating value, which now you're not being as creative, you're being more directional.

你需要确保你正在传达价值，现在你不再那么有创造力，而是更有方向性。

And then ultimately the purchase is like, "Hey, click here, convert now." So you do want to give them the ability to still be creative.

最终购买就像是，“嘿，点击这里，立即转换。”所以你确实想赋予他们保持创造力的能力。

"Hey, I hired you because you have a good creative eye and you're good at what you do, but now we need to focus on getting that person to convert." So you give them a little free rein to be creative, but then you also need them to be able to execute against that creative, you need to get those users to convert.

“嘿，我雇用你是因为你有很好的创意眼光，而且你很擅长你所做的事情，但现在我们需要集中精力让那个人转变。”因此，你给他们一点自由发挥创意的空间，但你也需要他们能够执行该创意，你需要让这些用户进行转化。

Lenny Rachitsky: And they're also writing the copy, I imagine for the Google Ads.

Lenny Rachitsky：他们也在写文案，我想是为了 Google Ads。

Timothy Davis: I usually say that should be collaborative.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：我通常说这应该是协作的。

The performance marketer should be able to write most of the ads, but I can't tell you how many times in my career where I've written an ad and I'm like, "This is the greatest ad ever written known to man.

效果营销人员应该能够撰写大部分广告，但我无法告诉你在我的职业生涯中有多少次我写过广告，然后我会说：“这是人类有史以来写过的最伟大的广告。

People will write stories about this ad, it is amazing." And it flops because I'm not the target audience, more times than not.

人们会写关于这则广告的故事，这太神奇了。”它失败了，因为我不是目标受众，很多时候都是如此。

So I think it should be collaborative, and no idea should be left on the cutting room floor because...

所以我认为它应该是协作的，任何想法都不应该留在剪辑室地板上，因为......

Perfect example.

完美的例子。

I was working with ADT, the security company.

我当时在安全公司 ADT 工作。

We wrote the most perfect ad when Google Ads only allowed a headline and two descriptions of 35 and 35.

当Google Ads只允许一个标题和两个35和35的描述时，我们写出了最完美的广告。

We got every single value prop in there somehow, it was amazing.

我们以某种方式得到了其中的每一个价值道具，这真是太棒了。

Timothy Davis: And the ad that it was going against was dollar sign, zero setup fee, dollar sign, zero install fee.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：它反对的广告是美元符号，零安装费，美元符号，零安装费。

That ad won.

那则广告赢了。

It was like that is...

就好像那是...

No, how did that...

不对，怎么会这样……

It barely uses any of the characters, and it tells you almost nothing, but it won.

它几乎没有使用任何字符，而且几乎什么也没告诉你，但它赢了。

Had more conversions, a higher click-through rate.

转化次数更多，点击率更高。

So we took that, and we applied that with the value props, and it did better.

所以我们采取了这一点，并将其与价值道具一起应用，效果更好。

So it should never be like, unless the idea is don't buy our product, which hopefully someone is not writing that ad copy.

所以它不应该是这样的，除非我们的想法是不要购买我们的产品，希望有人不会写那个广告文案。

It shouldn't be left on the cutting room floor.

它不应该留在剪辑室地板上。

Always test it.

总是测试它。

Always be willing to learn what works, what doesn't.

始终愿意学习什么有效，什么无效。

Lenny Rachitsky: For this first hire, what's the title of this person, usually in your experience?

Lenny Rachitsky：对于第一个员工，根据您的经验，这个人的头衔是什么？

Timothy Davis: Lately, it's been growth marketing specialist, growth marketing manager, because they're going to wear multiple hats.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：最近，出现了增长营销专家、增长营销经理，因为他们将身兼数职。

Like at any startup that you're at, you're going to be asked one day to, "Hey, I want you to do performance ads," and then tomorrow it's like, "Hey, I need you to help me build out this spreadsheet for a spec sheet that you have no idea what you're doing." So you're always going to wear multiple hats, so just having a general title like that to start out with.

就像你所在的任何初创公司一样，有一天你会被要求，“嘿，我想让你做效果广告”，然后明天就会变成，“嘿，我需要你帮我为规格表构建这个电子表格，而你不知道自己在做什么。”所以你总是会身兼数职，所以一开始就需要一个这样的通用头衔。

And then if that person matures into a role, you can make them more of a specialist.

然后，如果这个人成熟到了某个角色，你就可以让他们变得更加专家。

Or if they start showing signs of like, "Hey, I really like doing the social stuff, and we've scaled enough.

或者，如果他们开始表现出这样的迹象，“嘿，我真的很喜欢做社交活动，而且我们的规模已经足够大了。

Okay, let me hire a paid search person." So yeah, I always start with a general, and then as the team grows, we get more into specialties.

好吧，我雇个付费搜索人员吧。”所以，是的，我总是从将军开始，然后随着团队的成长，我们会更多地关注专业。

Lenny Rachitsky: So growth marketing person, it's kind of like the broad umbrella.

Lenny Rachitsky：对于增长营销人员来说，这有点像大伞。

Lenny Rachitsky: And then are these people sitting in Google Ad Manager and Meta Ads and just like running ads manually?

Lenny Rachitsky：那么这些人是否坐在 Google Ad Manager 和 Meta Ads 中，就像手动运行广告一样？

Timothy Davis: At Shopify, we call it GSD, getting shit done.

Timothy Davis：在 Shopify，我们称之为 GSD，意思是“gettingshitdone”。

I'm a firm believer in getting shit done.

我坚信要把事情做好。

You should be in the account, like I mentioned earlier with that ops cadence, we have stuff we need to be doing weekly, bi-weekly, monthly.

你应该在帐户中，就像我之前提到的那样，按照操作节奏，我们需要每周、每两周、每月做一些事情。

The bigger the company gets, the you wind up in more and more meetings talking about the things you want to do, and how you're going to do it and stuff like that.

公司规模越大，你就会参加越来越多的会议，讨论你想做的事情，以及你将如何做之类的事情。

But keeping those people kind of sheltered away from that and focused on those things, are going to drive the best results for you, you possibly can get.

但是让这些人远离这些事情并专注于这些事情，将为你带来最好的结果，你可能会得到。

Timothy Davis: And that means hands-on keyboards in the Ads Manager, tweaking things.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：这意味着在广告管理器中手动操作键盘，进行调整。

Setting up a calendar.

设置日历。

I'm a firm believer in setting up a calendar.

我坚信制定日历。

"We started this test on this day, that means this test will end a month from now." Put a notification, so you have a cool down period, and you report out to the org what you did, how you did it, why you did it, and then the results from it.

“我们从这一天开始了这次测试，也就是说，这次测试将在一个月后结束。”发出通知，这样你就有一个冷静期，然后向组织报告你做了什么、如何做、为什么这样做，然后是结果。

And then, all right, what we learned from this is this, and we will be applying that to our next test, and this is how.

然后，好吧，我们从中学到的是这个，我们将把它应用到我们的下一个测试中，这就是方法。

So yeah, hands-on keyboards doing all of those things.

所以是的，手动键盘可以完成所有这些事情。

So again, hiring those smart people, and just getting out of their way.

再说一次，雇佣那些聪明的人，然后让他们走。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love that.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢这个。

In terms of how this team grows, you mentioned when we were chatting, that you wait for someone to cry uncle, to hire more and to add to the team to kind of avoid bloat.

至于这个团队如何成长，你在我们聊天时提到，你等着有人喊叔叔，雇佣更多人，加入到团队中，以避免臃肿。

Talk about that.

谈谈那个。

Timothy Davis: Unfortunately, we've seen a lot in the news lately with a lot of tech companies letting go of some really talented people, and that is, I feel like just created bloated organizations.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：不幸的是，我们最近在新闻中看到很多科技公司解雇了一些真正有才华的人，也就是说，我觉得刚刚创建了臃肿的组织。

We, every month, my current manager, Dean, created this calculator that we look at that says, "How much time are you spending in meetings?" If you have any PTO coming up, put that in there.

我现在的经理 Dean 每个月都会创建一个计算器，我们会看到它上面写着：“你在会议上花费了多少时间？”如果您有任何 PTO，请将其放在那里。

Optimizations, reporting, stuff like that to basically add up to how many days are in the quarter?

优化、报告之类的东西基本上加起来就是该季度有多少天？

Because every quarter...

因为每个季度...

Well, not every quarter, but most quarters you'll have vacation, or you'll have, say, what we call a Shopify burst, where it's we meet in real life to get shit done in real life as opposed to remotely.

好吧，不是每个季度，但大多数季度你都会休假，或者你会遇到我们所说的 Shopify 爆发，我们在现实生活中见面，在现实生活中完成任务，而不是远程。

Put all that in there, and then what does the number equate to?

把所有这些都放进去，那么这个数字等于什么？

Oh, we're in the red right now for these two to five people.

哦，对于这两到五个人来说，我们现在处于亏损状态。

Timothy Davis: How many quarters has it been that way?

蒂莫西·戴维斯：有多少个季度是这样了？

Okay, it's only this quarter.

好吧，只是这个季度。

This quarter, we have a summit coming up, or we have a burst coming up, or we have a lot of travel because we're meeting with partners, so on and so forth.

本季度，我们即将举行峰会，或者即将爆发，或者我们有很多旅行，因为我们正在与合作伙伴会面，等等。

So maybe this is an isolated thing, let's go ahead and wait till next quarter.

所以也许这是一个孤立的事情，让我们继续等待下个季度。

All right, next quarter, it's red again.

好吧，下个季度，又红了。

All right, now maybe we need to start having the conversation of, what this new hire will take over, what they will be responsible for, and how much work they'll be taking on and doing, to replace some of this red that is going on.

好吧，现在也许我们需要开始讨论，这个新员工将接管什么，他们将负责什么，以及他们将承担和完成多少工作，以取代一些正在进行的红色工作。

Timothy Davis: And if it equates to a full head, great, we can move forward, we've made our business case.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：如果这相当于全神贯注，那就太好了，我们可以继续前进，我们已经制定了我们的业务案例。

But sometimes it doesn't.

但有时却不然。

Sometimes we're just red, and we need to do a better job of making sure, "Hey, we need to step out of these meetings.

有时我们只是脸色发红，我们需要更好地确保，“嘿，我们需要退出这些会议。

These meetings are sucking out our time and we don't need to be a part of it." Or, "This launch, we don't need to be a part of.

这些会议占用了我们的时间，我们不需要参与其中。”或者，“这次发布，我们不需要参与其中。

We just need to be consulted on it.

我们只需要咨询一下即可。

We don't need to be in every single meeting every single time, or every single communication." So just making sure we're looking at the right things before we decide to hire someone and making-

我们不需要每次都参加每一次会议，或者每一次沟通。”因此，在我们决定雇用某人之前，请确保我们正在考虑正确的事情并做出-

Timothy Davis: Just making sure we're looking at the right things before we decide to hire someone and making sure that we have stuff for them to do.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：在我们决定雇用某人之前，确保我们正在考虑正确的事情，并确保我们有他们可以做的事情。

Lenny Rachitsky: And red means they have more work?

Lenny Rachitsky：红色意味着他们有更多工作？

Timothy Davis: Yeah.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：是的。

More days than there are in the quarter.

天数多于本季度的天数。

Lenny Rachitsky: And so they basically estimate, "Here's how many days I need to do the things I've committed to for the quarter." And then it's like, "How many actual days do you have this quarter?"

Lenny Rachitsky：所以他们基本上估计，“这是我需要多少天来完成我在本季度承诺的事情。”然后就会问，“这个季度你实际有多少天？”

Lenny Rachitsky: That is super cool.

Lenny Rachitsky：那太酷了。

And so step one is, 'Okay, if you're in the red, let's cut some stuff." And then if they're still in the red and you've cut stuff, then, " Okay, we need to start hiring."

所以第一步是，‘好吧，如果你亏损了，让我们削减一些东西。’然后，如果他们仍然亏损，而你已经削减了一些东西，那么，‘好吧，我们需要开始招聘。’

Lenny Rachitsky: That is very cool.

Lenny Rachitsky：这非常酷。

Is that a Shopify thing or is that something you do at your team?

这是 Shopify 的事情还是您在团队中做的事情？

Timothy Davis: I've done stuff like that at other companies before, but kind of bringing it forward again, I don't want to take the credit for it.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：我以前在其他公司做过类似的事情，但再次提出来，我不想因此而获得荣誉。

Dean was the one that brought it back up.

Dean 是那个把这件事带回来的人。

It was like, "Oh yeah, I used to do this.

就像是，“哦，是的，我曾经这样做过。

I don't know why I stopped doing it." So it's definitely something I've used at other companies for sure.

我不知道为什么我不再这样做了。”所以这绝对是我在其他公司使用过的东西。

Lenny Rachitsky: That is super cool.

Lenny Rachitsky：那太酷了。

You mentioned this opps cadence.

你提到了这种opps节奏。

Is that something you can describe just what this cadence looks like of how you run?

您可以用这个来描述您跑步时的节奏吗？

Timothy Davis: Yeah.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：是的。

So I love me a spreadsheet.

所以我喜欢电子表格。

So it's just a spreadsheet.

所以这只是一个电子表格。

And visually, I'll do my best to describe it.

在视觉上，我会尽力描述它。

Let's say column A has those buckets I was talking about a finance, performance structure, keywords, so on and so forth.

假设 A 列包含我正在谈论的财务、绩效结构、关键字等内容。

And then within those buckets ...

然后在那些桶里......

Or let's call those ...

或者让我们称这些为...

Everyone loves rocks and pebbles right now, right?

现在每个人都喜欢岩石和鹅卵石，对吧？

So that's your big rock.

所以这就是你的大石头。

Your big rock is keywords.

你的大石头是关键词。

Timothy Davis: Then within that you have pebbles.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：然后里面有鹅卵石。

Keyword granularity, brand versus non-brand, search query reports, negatives, so on, so forth.

关键词粒度、品牌与非品牌、搜索查询报告、否定等等。

And then within that we say how often we're doing it.

然后我们会在其中说明我们这样做的频率。

Are we doing it weekly, bi-weekly, monthly?

我们是每周、每两周、还是每月进行一次？

And then that allows us to ...

然后这使我们能够...

If anyone in the organization's like, "Hey, how often are you guys updating ad copy?" Easy answer.

如果组织中有人问“嘿，你们多久更新一次广告文案？”简单的回答。

"How often are you guys doing search query reports?" Easy answer, And it allows us to make sure we hold ourselves accountable to those things because a lot of times we have a lot we're doing, We're working in Google, we're working in Meta, we're working in YouTube.

“你们多久做一次搜索查询报告？”答案很简单，它使我们能够确保自己对这些事情负责，因为很多时候我们有很多事情要做，我们在 Google 工作，我们在 Meta 工作，我们在 YouTube 工作。

You could easily forget, "Oh, I didn't do that.

你很容易忘记：“哦，我没有那样做。

I got to make sure I do that again." So it's a way to hold yourself accountable, but it's also a way for me as a manager to go in and kind of spot check that and make sure that they're doing the things that need to be done in the account.

我必须确保再次这样做。”因此，这是一种让自己承担责任的方式，但这也是我作为经理介入并进行抽查并确保他们正在做账户中需要完成的事情的一种方式。

Lenny Rachitsky: The core of this, essentially, there's a spreadsheet that everyone aligns on of here's when and how often we do certain activity to operate this performance marketing machine that you've built.

Lenny Rachitsky：本质上，其核心是有一个电子表格，每个人都可以在其中调整我们执行某些活动的时间和频率，以操作您构建的这台绩效营销机器。

Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

And it's both internally so that everyone knows, and then also when people ask, "Hey, when are you going to do this?" "Okay, here's the data."

这既是内部的，这样每个人都知道，然后当人们问：“嘿，你打算什么时候做这件事？” “好的，这是数据。”

Timothy Davis: Yeah.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：是的。

Yeah.

是的。

So if a cross-functional team or partner wants to know, easy answer.

因此，如果跨职能团队或合作伙伴想知道，答案很简单。

"We got it for you right here.

“我们就在这里为你准备好了。

Here's our whole opps cadence."

这是我们整个对手的节奏。”

Lenny Rachitsky: In terms of the team, something else folks told me about you is that you're very hardcore about training new people that you hire.

Lenny Rachitsky：就团队而言，人们告诉我关于您的另一件事是，您非常热衷于培训您雇用的新员工。

What does people mean by that?

人们这么说是什么意思？

Timothy Davis: Yeah.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：是的。

There's a book called ...

有本书叫...

I think it's The First 90 Days, and in it actually has a graph that shows when the person starts having impact and how many days it's been.

我认为这是“前 90 天”，其中实际上有一个图表，显示该人何时开始产生影响以及已经过了多少天。

And more times than not, it takes about ...

很多时候，它需要大约......

We've all heard it.

我们都听说过。

90 days for someone to have impact.

90 天让某人产生影响。

Timothy Davis: I want to try and make that 45 days, if not 30.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：如果不是 30 天，我想尝试 45 天。

Most of the time it has to do with learning the culture, learning the people understanding, "Yes, you've done paid before at this other job, but this is how we do it here." That's where the opps cadence really comes in handy.

大多数时候，这与学习文化、了解人们的理解有关，“是的，你以前在其他工作中也做过带薪工作，但这就是我们在这里的做法。”这就是对手节奏真正派上用场的地方。

It's like, "Here's how often we do it here.

就像，“这就是我们在这里这样做的频率。

I understand maybe you did it monthly there, but we do it here biweekly.

我知道也许您在那里每月进行一次，但我们在这里每两周进行一次。

And you're saying you used to do it biweekly, we do it weekly and this is how."

你说你以前每两周做一次，我们每周做一次，就是这样。”

Timothy Davis: And also giving them responsibility early on for something.

蒂莫西·戴维斯（Timothy Davis）：并且还尽早赋予他们对某些事情的责任。

For example, Kat on my team was hired 8ish months ago.

例如，我团队中的 Kat 是 8 个月前受聘的。

She was thrown into the fire very quickly.

她很快就被扔进了火里。

It was like, "Hey, we have this campaign coming up called additions.

就像是，“嘿，我们即将推出一项名为“添加”的活动。

Here's everything we did last additions.

这是我们最后添加的所有内容。

This is the results.

这就是结果。

These are your responsibilities, these are the expectations.

这些是你的责任，这些是你的期望。

Go.

走吧。

Go forth and conquer.

勇往直前，征服一切。

As you come along.

当你来的时候。

There may be something that doesn't make sense.

可能有些事情没有意义。

I'm here by all means ask questions."

我在这里一定要问问题。”

Timothy Davis: But what I've noticed is twofold.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：但我注意到的是双重的。

One, when you're clear in what is expected of them, like, "You are expected to do this when and you already know how to do it.

第一，当你清楚对他们的期望时，比如，“你应该在你已经知道如何做的时候做这件事。

Great." Or also in one-on-ones, I'll just open up the account and say, "Hey, this is how I do it.

太棒了。”或者在一对一的情况下，我会打开帐户并说：“嘿，我就是这样做的。

Let me show you the way I'm doing it and how quick it is for me.

让我向您展示我的做法以及它对我来说有多快。

And you can learn, even though we're remote, I'm showing you as if you're sitting right over my shoulder or we're face to face.

你可以了解到，即使我们相距遥远，我也会向你展示，就像你坐在我的肩膀上或者我们面对面一样。

This is how I do it." So if you're doing something different maybe ...

我就是这样做的。”所以如果你做一些不同的事情也许......

One plus one is two, three minus one is two, and that's fine.

一加一等于二，三减一等于二，这样就可以了。

We both got to the same answer.

我们都得到了相同的答案。

But if you're doing nine times five minus two times 12 divided by 15, nope, we can simplify this."

但如果你要做九乘五减二乘以 12 除以 15，不，我们可以简化它。”

Timothy Davis: So making sure that they're efficient and effective with their time, they're focusing on that signal versus that noise and giving them responsibility early on to really take ownership of something.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：因此，为了确保他们的时间高效且有效，他们会专注于信号而不是噪音，并尽早赋予他们责任，真正掌握某件事。

You can see that people are a lot more quicker to pick up things and start getting that flywheel going of, "Hey, I want to have impact as soon as possible." Versus, "Oh, hey, go read this handbook week one.

你可以看到人们更快地接受事物并开始让飞轮运转起来，“嘿，我想尽快产生影响。”相反，“哦，嘿，第一周去读一下这本手册。

Week two, let me introduce you to the team.

第二周，让我向您介绍团队。

Week three." It's like slow rolling.

第三周。”就像缓慢滚动一样。

"We can speed this up guys.

“我们可以加快速度，伙计们。

We can get people up to speed and making impact a lot sooner."

我们可以让人们更快地了解并产生影响。”

Timothy Davis: And also don't expect them to be perfect.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：也不要指望它们是完美的。

You can't expect people to be perfect right out the gate.

你不能期望人们一开始就完美。

" I can't remember every little thing I need to tell you, and there may be things I can learn from you." I can't tell you how many times I'm still learning from people around me.

“我记不清需要告诉你的每一件小事，但也许我可以从你身上学到一些东西。”我无法告诉你有多少次我仍在向周围的人学习。

It's like, "Oh, that's great.

就像是，“哦，那太好了。

I didn't even think of that or I haven't tried that.

我什至没有想到这一点，或者我没有尝试过。

I should totally do that." So just know that they're not going to be perfect out of the gate, but giving them clear direction and expectations, we'll get them where they need to be.

我完全应该这样做。”所以只要知道他们不会一开始就完美，但给他们明确的方向和期望，我们会让他们到达他们需要的地方。

Lenny Rachitsky: I could see why your team is so effective and so successful.

Lenny Rachitsky：我明白为什么你们的团队如此高效、如此成功。

This all makes a lot of sense.

这一切都很有道理。

You mind if I do a rapid fire set of questions that people asked on Twitter about very specific stuff?

您介意我快速回答人们在 Twitter 上提出的关于非常具体问题的一系列问题吗？

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, ATT, there was a huge change to the way cookies and attribution and tracking worked online and it felt like paid ads kind of like, "Oh, shit.

Lenny Rachitsky：好的，ATT，cookie、归因和跟踪的在线工作方式发生了巨大变化，感觉就像付费广告有点像，“哦，糟糕。

That's not going to work anymore.

那不再起作用了。

It's over.

结束了。

Facebook is dead." Clearly that hasn't happened at this point.

Facebook 已经死了。”显然，目前这种情况还没有发生。

Just what is the impact that ATT has had on paid ads and performance marketing?

ATT 对付费广告和效果营销有何影响？

Timothy Davis: We were just talking about this the other day because we have ...

蒂莫西·戴维斯：我们前几天刚刚谈论过这个，因为我们......

Full transparency, we have people fully dedicated to mobile on the team, and I had reached out to Sasha who's on the team and said, "Hey, what are we doing with ATT?

完全透明，我们的团队中有完全致力于移动领域的人员，我联系了团队中的 Sasha 说：“嘿，我们正在用 ATT 做什么？

What are we doing scan?

我们扫描做什么？

All those things?

所有这些事情？

Because has any of our tactics really changed because of say, low opt-in rates?" And the direct answer I got from her was, "As long as we can use scan to provide attribution and measurement for iOS, we're fine." It's like, "Okay, that's very straightforward.

因为我们的策略真的因为低选择率而改变了吗？”我从她那里得到的直接答案是，“只要我们可以使用扫描为 iOS 提供归因和测量，我们就没有问题。”就像，“好吧，这非常简单。

I appreciate it." So as long as you're doing those things, you should be okay.

我很感激。”所以只要你在做这些事情，就应该没问题。

Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

That's great.

太好了。

So basically the show goes on, things change, but people find ways to work around it.

所以基本上，演出仍在继续，事情发生了变化，但人们找到了解决方法。

Okay.

好的。

Creatives, how impactful are creative in the performance of ads generally?

创意人员，创意对于广告效果的影响力有多大？

Is that like, "Holy shit.

是不是就像“天哪。

People are way under estimating the power of a creative." Or is it like, "Okay, it's like a fringe impact?"

人们远远低估了创意的力量。”或者是“好吧，这就像一种边缘影响？”

Timothy Davis: Way underestimating the power of creative.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：太低估了创造力的力量。

The best example I can give ...

我能举的最好的例子...

Do you remember Dollar Shave Club?

你还记得美元剃须俱乐部吗？

Timothy Davis: All right.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：好的。

There you go.

就这样吧。

You remember it.

你还记得吧。

That was creative.

那很有创意。

Now the person buying it may have done a really good job of just targeting males, but I would argue girlfriends at the time probably would've been aware of it as well.

现在购买它的人可能在只针对男性方面做得非常好，但我认为当时的女朋友可能也意识到了这一点。

Really good creative should be doing a really good job of telling a story.

真正好的创意应该是很好地讲故事。

And if it does that ...

如果这样做的话......

Again, going back to what we talked about at the very beginning, if you get that emotion with users, whether that's pulling at the hard strings or comedy, it's going to have a lasting impact.

再次回到我们一开始讨论的内容，如果你能激发用户的情感，无论是拉扯硬线还是喜剧，它都会产生持久的影响。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

Chuck on Twitter asked, "When someone steals your traffic, say in Google search results and buying up keywords around your companies, what should you do?

查克在推特上问道：“当有人窃取你的流量时，比如在谷歌搜索结果中窃取你公司的关键词时，你该怎么办？

Any advice?"

有什么建议吗？”

Timothy Davis: Yeah.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：是的。

So that actually goes back to the visual that we showed and I'll pull it back up as I'm talking through it.

所以这实际上可以追溯到我们展示的视觉效果，我会在谈论它时将其拉回来。

The biggest thing is just know that anyone can do that.

最重要的是知道任何人都可以做到这一点。

You can do it too, if you are ultimately concerned about it.

如果您最终担心的话，您也可以这样做。

But a lot of times competitors could be doing it on accident.

但很多时候竞争对手可能是无意中这样做的。

And what I mean by accident is within Google, if you're bidding on keywords, Google will do what's called a close variant.

我的意思是在谷歌内部，如果你对关键词进行竞价，谷歌会做所谓的紧密变体。

If you were to do say e-commerce solution, I bet you Shopify shows up as a close variant at some point or Square or anyone like that.

如果你确实要说电子商务解决方案，我敢打赌你的 Shopify 在某个时候会显示为一个紧密的变体，或者 Square 或类似的任何人。

So they could just be mismanaging their account first and foremost.

因此，他们首先可能是对自己的账户管理不善。

Don't give them that much credit that they're doing this maliciously or even doing it with intent.

不要认为他们是恶意这样做的，甚至是故意这样做的。

Timothy Davis: And again, it will be in the show notes.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：再说一次，这将在演出笔记中。

If you do pull this report and you do notice that there is a clear threat that's going on here, first things first, let's make sure that they're not doing anything egregious like saying, "Lenny and Tim are better than Monday.com."

如果您确实提取了这份报告，并且确实注意到这里存在明显的威胁，那么首先，让我们确保他们没有做任何令人震惊的事情，例如说“Lenny 和 Tim 比 Monday.com 更好”。

Timothy Davis: You cannot be, if the brand is trademarked within Google, they cannot use your name within the ad copy.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：你不能，如果该品牌在谷歌内部注册了商标，他们就不能在广告文案中使用你的名字。

Google more times than not will disallow it, but they could misspell it.

谷歌很多时候会禁止它，但他们可能会拼错它。

I can't tell you how many times I've seen Shopify spelled with two I's because Google isn't catching it, but we can always put in a claim to say, "Hey Google, please remove this."

我无法告诉你有多少次看到 Shopify 拼写有两个 I，因为 Google 没有捕捉到它，但我们总是可以声明说：“嘿 Google，请删除它。”

Timothy Davis: But if we do run this ...You can kind of see that the orange line here, and for those that are just listening.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：但是如果我们真的运行这个......你可以看到这里的橙色线，以及对于那些只是在听的人。

Orange line is rather consistent over time.

随着时间的推移，橙色线相当一致。

There is a two week period where it dips, but it does come back up.

有两周的时间会下降，但确实会回升。

There's another line that at the beginning of this visual, green is actually above orange.

还有另一行，在该视觉效果的开头，绿色实际上位于橙色之上。

And if you look at the green one over time it almost disappears.

如果你观察绿色的，随着时间的推移，它几乎消失了。

So the reason I would say make sure you're looking at this report, and it's not just ego marketing, it could be an error.

因此，我之所以要说，请确保您正在查看这份报告，这不仅仅是自我营销，它可能是一个错误。

The issue could be the green one, specifically, could have been getting a close variant.

问题可能是绿色的，具体来说，可能是得到了一个相近的变体。

They identified it, they removed it.

他们识别了它，然后将其删除。

"Oh wait, a couple of weeks later, we didn't fully remove it.

“哦等等，几周后，我们并没有完全删除它。

Now let's remove it completely.

现在让我们将其完全删除。

And now they're almost gone completely." So make sure you're looking at the data and reacting to consistent competitor conquesting versus something that could just be an accident or users not knowing what they're doing.

现在它们几乎完全消失了。”因此，请确保您正在查看数据并对竞争对手的持续征服做出反应，而不是可能只是意外或用户不知道自己在做什么的事情。

Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

And this is PPC Hero again, right?

这又是 PPC 英雄，对吧？

PPChero.com or whatever?

PPChero.com 还是其他什么？

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。

We'll link it to it in the show notes.

我们将在演出笔记中将其链接到它。

Okay.

好的。

Last question.

最后一个问题。

AI.

人工智能。

You mentioned AI.

你提到了人工智能。

You're looking for AI tools to help you with your workflows and analyze data.

您正在寻找人工智能工具来帮助您完成工作流程和分析数据。

I guess is there anything you've seen AI impact in the work of paid growth and performance marketing, or is it like in the future might, other than obviously the algorithms on the platforms?

我想除了平台上的算法之外，您是否还看到过人工智能对付费增长和绩效营销工作的影响，或者未来可能会产生什么影响？

Timothy Davis: I remember having this conversation a couple of months ago.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：我记得几个月前有过这样的谈话。

AI, couldn't get away from it, right?

AI，无法摆脱它，对吗？

It was everywhere, and what we were doing was leadership on know, "In all of our quarterly planning, what are we doing about AI?

它无处不在，我们所做的就是领导知道，“在我们所有的季度计划中，我们在人工智能方面做了什么？

How are we using ai?

我们如何使用人工智能？

What are we doing that's different?"

我们在做什么有什么不同？”

Timothy Davis: As always, I go to the partners and I say, "Hey, what are we doing about this?" And Francisco at Google, actually, he made a really good point.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：一如既往，我去找合伙人说，“嘿，我们对此做什么？”事实上，谷歌的弗朗西斯科提出了一个非常好的观点。

"You guys have been using AI for years now.

“你们已经使用人工智能很多年了。

Smart Bidding is AI.

智能出价就是人工智能。

All of the recommendations within Google Ads is AI.

Google Ads 中的所有建议都是人工智能。

Ad copy recommendations is AI, and that's always been in the platform, so we've always used those things."

广告文案推荐是人工智能，它一直存在于平台中，所以我们一直在使用这些东西。”

Timothy Davis: So it was kind of like, let's reset the conversation of, "Hey, this has been here.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：所以这有点像，让我们重新开始对话，“嘿，这已经在这里了。

We have been using it, this is how we've been using it and moving forward, these are some of the things we think we'll start doing." I do think it's having a huge impact from a content standpoint and a creative standpoint.

我们一直在使用它，这就是我们一直在使用它并向前迈进的方式，这些是我们认为我们将开始做的一些事情。”我确实认为从内容的角度和创意的角度来看它产生了巨大的影响。

Now, if those two kind of converge together, you have a perfect storm, right?

现在，如果这两者融合在一起，就会有一场完美的风暴，对吧？

But it is something that I keep a relative close eye on, but like I said earlier, hopefully some of your users can share more information with me.

但这是我相对密切关注的事情，但正如我之前所说，希望你们的一些用户可以与我分享更多信息。

But it's not something that I would say is overly impactful yet, but I could see how it could be used maliciously if you can do API connections and things along those lines, for sure.

但我认为它还没有太大的影响力，但如果你可以进行 API 连接和类似的事情，我可以看到它如何被恶意使用，这是肯定的。

Lenny Rachitsky: Wait, what do you mean by that?

Lenny Rachitsky：等等，你这是什么意思？

Timothy Davis: Again, Google will disallow certain things, but it takes time sometimes.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：同样，谷歌会禁止某些事情，但这有时需要时间。

If the term is copyrighted in Google for ad copy, it'll disallow it immediately.

如果该术语在 Google 中受广告文案版权保护，它将立即禁止使用。

But say they need to do a check, you'll see a lot of times under review or pending in the account.

但是如果他们需要进行检查，您会在帐户中看到很多次正在审核或待处理。

But you'll also see impressions potentially attached to that.

但您也会看到与之相关的潜在印象。

It's because Google's like, "Oh, we'll serve a little bit of it, and then if it's malicious, we'll pull it back." I could see a way that somebody could automate AI to where it's always updating it to where it's like, "Oh, let's just get a little drip here, a little drip here, a little drip here." And that little drip equates to a lot, but that's something AI could help with a human doing that would just take forever and be a total waste of time.

这是因为谷歌会说，“哦，我们会提供一点它，然后如果它是恶意的，我们会把它撤回。”我可以看到一种方法，有人可以让人工智能自动化，让它总是更新到这样的地方，“哦，让我们在这里滴一点，这里滴一点，这里滴一点。”一点点滴水就相当于很多，但人工智能可以帮助人类做这件事，而这只会花费很长时间，而且完全是浪费时间。

Lenny Rachitsky: Got it.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：明白了。

Just run tons of ads, just keep trying, trying, trying trying stuff.

只需投放大量广告，不断尝试、尝试、尝试。

Slip through the cracks.

从裂缝中溜过去。

You mentioned creative.

你提到了创意。

It actually came back to question I forgot to ask.

这实际上又回到了我忘记问的问题。

Going back to the team that you hired to run this sort of stuff, you hire this one person, growth marketer, specialist type of person, and the next hire is a creative.

回到你雇佣来运行这类东西的团队，你雇佣了一个人，增长营销人员，专业类型的人，下一个雇佣的是创意人员。

What's a sign that it's time to hire the creative person?

什么迹象表明是时候聘请有创造力的人了？

Is there anything there?

那里有什么吗？

Is it just like, "We have budget and this is working?" Or is there anything else of, "Like, okay, this is a good time?"

是不是就像“我们有预算并且这有效？”或者还有其他什么，“比如，好吧，现在是个好时机？”

Timothy Davis: Yeah, if you're using a creative agency and they're getting you everything you want and you're happy with it, then it may not make sense to hire a creative.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：是的，如果你使用创意机构，他们可以为你提供你想要的一切，并且你对此感到满意，那么雇用创意人员可能没有意义。

But more times not what I've noticed from creative ...

但更多时候并不是我从创意中注意到的......

Creative independence tend to do better than an agency.

创意独立往往比代理机构做得更好。

The biggest difference I see is that matching the right tone, matching the right creative look and feel that you're going for is accomplished way better in-house, and also coming up with new ideas that you can test quickly and iterate on versus, "We only have so many hours with the agency this month, or we only have so much budget we can spend with them." Where if you have that person in-house fully dedicated to the product itself, you'll never run into those caps.

我认为最大的区别是，匹配正确的基调，匹配正确的创意外观和感觉，你想要的在内部可以更好地完成，并且还可以提出可以快速测试和迭代的新想法，而不是“这个月我们与代理机构的时间有限，或者我们只有那么多预算可以花在他们身上。”如果你有一个内部人员完全致力于产品本身，你就永远不会遇到这些上限。

Lenny Rachitsky: It feels like if anywhere that scenario AI is going to empower that initial hire to do more creative on their own, you would think?

Lenny Rachitsky：你认为，如果在任何地方，场景人工智能都会让最初的员工能够自己做更多的创意吗？

Timothy Davis: Yeah.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：是的。

Yeah.

是的。

And that's not always the best way to go.

这并不总是最好的方法。

I've seen some ads in there where it's like, "Oh yeah, they're being scrappy.

我在那里看到过一些广告，内容就像是，“哦，是的，他们很斗志旺盛。

I see what they're doing." But to your point, maybe that's where AI kind of bridges the gap.

我明白他们在做什么。”但就你的观点而言，也许这就是人工智能弥补这一差距的地方。

Because I can't tell you how many times in the past it's like, Guys, we've got to be able to do retargeting, but we have no creative to do." Google has the dynamic ad builder and they've had it for I feel like years now, and that was just like, "Give us a couple of images and we will make a display ad for you that should perform because we're testing many different iterations of it." Meta is probably going to come along with something as well that it's like, "Give us a picture of your product and we'll put different backgrounds on it and test what works and what doesn't." Things along those lines.

因为我无法告诉你过去有多少次这样的情况，伙计们，我们必须能够进行重定向，但我们没有创意可做。”谷歌拥有动态广告构建器，我感觉他们已经拥有它很多年了，就像，“给我们几张图片，我们将为您制作一个应该有效的展示广告，因为我们正在测试它的许多不同的迭代。” Meta 可能还会附带一些类似的内容，“给我们一张您的产品图片，我们将在上面放置不同的背景，并测试哪些有效，哪些无效。”事情就是这样的。

Lenny Rachitsky: That makes so much sense.

Lenny Rachitsky：这很有道理。

Timothy, we've covered so much ground.

蒂莫西，我们已经讨论了很多内容。

This is everything I was hoping it would be.

这就是我所希望的一切。

Before we get to our very exciting lightning round, is there anything else that you think would be important or valuable for listeners when they're trying to do this stuff on their own?

在我们开始非常激动人心的闪电回合之前，您认为当听众尝试自己做这些事情时，还有什么是重要或有价值的吗？

Any other nuggets left that we haven't already covered?

还有其他我们尚未涵盖的金块吗？

Timothy Davis: Yeah.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：是的。

I said it at one point, but I'll reiterate it.

我曾经说过，但我会重申一下。

I'm always forward thinking, backwards planning.

我总是向前思考，向后规划。

Just as you're going through it, "Where do you want to be and ultimately how do you think you're going to get there?" Because say your goal is to be on all platforms.

正如你正在经历的那样，“你想去哪里？最终你认为你将如何到达那里？”因为假设您的目标是出现在所有平台上。

"I want to be on Pinterest, I want to be on X, I want to be on everything." "Okay, forward think.

“我想出现在 Pinterest 上，我想出现在 X 上，我想出现在一切内容上。” “好吧，向前思考。

That's where you want to be.

那就是你想去的地方。

Now let's backwards plan.

现在让我们向后计划。

"What can we do right now?

“我们现在能做什么？

We can do search because that's only content and that's keywords.

我们可以进行搜索，因为这只是内容，而且是关键字。

We can do that.

我们可以做到。

All right, now we need creative, but where do we start?" And then make iterations along the way.

好吧，现在我们需要创意，但我们从哪里开始呢？”然后一路迭代。

It's just always forward think, backwards plan, and that's for anything.

它总是向前思考，向后计划，这对任何事情都是如此。

Lenny Rachitsky: What are other examples of forward thinking?

Lenny Rachitsky：前瞻性思维的其他例子是什么？

Because in a sense everyone will be like, "I want to be on every platform." I guess what are other things that people think about when they're like, the forward thinking is like, "Oh, we want to win Google search." Is that an example of forward thinking?

因为从某种意义上说，每个人都会说，“我想出现在每个平台上。”我猜当人们想到“哦，我们想赢得谷歌搜索”时，他们还会想到什么？这是前瞻性思维的一个例子吗？

What else?

还有什么？

What else should people thinking?

人们还应该思考什么？

Timothy Davis: Yeah, exactly.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：是的，完全正确。

What are those goals you want to hit?

您想实现哪些目标？

One of the things that we look at is what emerging channels to perform in it.

我们关注的事情之一是在其中执行哪些新兴渠道。

"So what is it going to take for us to consider this channel a performing channel that is an always on, we're we're adopting it as BAU?

“那么我们要怎样才能认为这个频道是一个始终在线的表演频道，我们是否会将其作为 BAU？

So that's going to take a thousand conversions a month at this much spend with this much lift associated with it.

因此，如果花费这么多，每月将需要一千次转化以及与之相关的提升。

So okay, we know what that looks like, so we're going to backwards plan where we're going to start.

好吧，我们知道那是什么样子，所以我们将向后计划我们要从哪里开始。

We're going to start with this one ad creative.

我们将从这个广告创意开始。

"Okay, that works.

“好吧，这有效。

Then we're going to go to this next ..." Because within each platform, they all have multiple types of ad units You can use.

然后我们接下来要讨论这个......”因为在每个平台内，它们都有多种类型的广告单元可供您使用。

Say in LinkedIn, there's feed, there's conversation, there's video, there's carousel.

比如说在 LinkedIn 中，有提要、对话、视频、轮播。

So it's what are the milestones along the way that you're going to do to ultimately get it from testing emerging channel to perform them?

那么，为了最终通过测试新兴渠道来执行这些里程碑，您将要做哪些里程碑？

So that would be an example of something more micro than macro.

所以这将是一个比宏观更微观的例子。

Lenny Rachitsky: Got it.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：明白了。

Well, with that, we reached our very exciting lightning round.

好吧，就这样，我们进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。

Are you ready?

你准备好了吗？

Lenny Rachitsky: First question.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：第一个问题。

What are two or three books that you've recommended most to other people?

您向其他人推荐最多的两三本书是什么？

Timothy Davis: Daily Stoic by far.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：到目前为止，每日斯多葛派。

A book I read every day.

我每天读的一本书。

Quick excerpt of what you can do from a stoic philosophy standpoint.

从坚忍哲学的角度快速摘录你可以做什么。

Great By Choice is another good one.

Great By Choice 是另一个不错的选择。

And Deep Work.

和深度工作。

Lenny Rachitsky: Favorite recent movie or TV show that you've really enjoyed?

Lenny Rachitsky：您最近最喜欢的电影或电视节目是？

Timothy Davis: X-Men '97.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：《X 战警 '97》。

Thoroughly enjoyed that.

非常享受这一点。

But that may be a lot of nostalgia.

但这可能是很多怀旧之情。

I actually never watched RRR when it first came out.

事实上，《RRR》刚上映时我从未看过。

Highly recommend that.

强烈推荐。

That was a lot more enjoyable than I was anticipating.

这比我预想的要愉快得多。

The Playlist, which is about Spotify, Welcome to Wrexham and Billion Dollar Code, also on Netflix, about Google Earth.

The Playlist 是关于 Spotify、Welcome to Wrexham 和 Billion Dollar Code 的，Netflix 上也有关于 Google Earth 的内容。

Very interesting.

非常有趣。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, RRR.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的，RRR。

That movie is intense and very long also.

那部电影很激烈，也很长。

It's like, man, I

就像，伙计，我

Lenny Rachitsky: ...

莱尼·拉奇茨基：……

just have to split it up into different days to finish it, but it is incredible.

只需要分成不同的日子来完成它，但这令人难以置信。

No intent.

没有意图。

Okay.

好的。

Favorite recent product you've recently discovered that you really love?

您最近发现自己真正喜欢的最喜欢的产品是？

Timothy Davis: I drink too much caffeine and I've been trying to cut it out and I kind of circled back to this product I used to use called Magic Mind.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：我喝了太多咖啡因，我一直在尝试戒掉它，然后我又回到了我以前使用的名为 Magic Mind 的产品。

It's a little shot every single day.

每天都会拍一点。

Tastes really good and it does help with focus I find.

味道真的很好，我发现它确实有助于集中注意力。

If it's a placebo, great, I don't care, but it's helping me.

如果它是安慰剂，那就太好了，我不在乎，但它对我有帮助。

Lenny Rachitsky: That's amazing.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

I'm also a huge fan of Magic Mind.

我也是 Magic Mind 的忠实粉丝。

I'm friends with the guy that started it.

我和发起这件事的人是朋友。

So funny that you love it.

太有趣了，你喜欢它。

I drink it often.

我经常喝。

Lenny Rachitsky: I am on the subscription plan and I think he uses Shopify to sell it.

Lenny Rachitsky：我参加了订阅计划，我认为他使用 Shopify 来销售它。

Lenny Rachitsky: It all connects.

Lenny Rachitsky：一切都是相互联系的。

Amazing.

惊人的。

Do you have a favorite life motto that you often come back to share with friends or family?

您有没有最喜欢的人生格言，并且经常回来与朋友或家人分享？

Find useful in work in life?

在工作、生活中找到有用的东西吗？

Timothy Davis: Happiness is dedicated by expectations or dictated by expectations.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：幸福是由期望奉献或由期望决定的。

That can't be more true more times than not, and it's similar.

这句话再正确不过了，而且也很相似。

That's why I said there's two, and this one's similar to it.

所以我说有两个，这个也是类似的。

You won't see it for what it is until you stop looking through the lens of what you want it to be.

除非你停止通过你想要的镜头来看待它，否则你不会看到它的本来面目。

Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

It reminds me of an equation a colleague of mine once shared.

这让我想起了我的一位同事曾经分享过的一个方程式。

He wrote a book of emotional equations or life equations.

他写了一本关于情感方程或生活方程的书。

It was happiness is reality minus expectations.

幸福就是现实减去期望。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, next question.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的，下一个问题。

Who's had the most influence on you in your career?

在您的职业生涯中，谁对您影响最大？

Timothy Davis: Well, we mentioned him before, so I got to bring him back up.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：嗯，我们之前提到过他，所以我得把他带回来。

Kasey Winters for sure.

凯西温特斯肯定是这样。

We were at a wedding.

我们当时正在参加一场婚礼。

He showed me the original version of Google Analytics.

他向我展示了 Google Analytics 的原始版本。

For those of you that don't know, it's called Urchin, and when he showed that to me, it was, "Wait, you know all of this information about users coming to the site." I knew I wanted to do marketing, but at that moment I knew I was going to do digital marketing and watch him grow in his career.

对于那些不知道的人来说，它叫做 Urchin，当他向我展示它时，它是，“等等，你知道有关访问该网站的用户的所有信息。”我知道我想做营销，但在那一刻我知道我要做数字营销并看着他在职业生涯中成长。

He's watching me grow in my career.

他看着我在职业生涯中成长。

We still balance each questions off of each other.

我们仍然平衡每个问题。

We cannot not have a phone call under an hour.

我们不能在一小时内不打电话。

So definitely the most impactful.

所以绝对是最有影响力的。

Lenny Rachitsky: Is there something about Casey Winters that people may not know?

莱尼·拉奇茨基：关于凯西·温特斯，有什么人们可能不知道的事情吗？

He's a two time podcast guest, huge friend of the show.

他是两次播客嘉宾，也是节目的好朋友。

Timothy Davis: Casey is really good at tennis, like insanely good at tennis.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：凯西非常擅长网球，非常擅长网球。

You want to know how good?

你想知道有多好吗？

This is how good he was.

这就是他的优秀之处。

In high school, he played ...

高中时，他扮演...

I'm pretty sure it was our senior year.

我很确定那是我们的高年级。

He hadn't played in a year, maybe a year plus.

他已经一年没有打球了，也许一年多了。

He was still ranked top 10 in the state of Louisiana for tennis players.

他在路易斯安那州的网球运动员中仍然排名前十。

Hasn't played in a year and still considered one of the top 10 players.

已经一年没打比赛了，但仍然被认为是前十名球员之一。

Insane.

疯狂的。

Lenny Rachitsky: Did not know that.

Lenny Rachitsky：不知道。

I actually played tennis in high school, and so that's amazing.

事实上，我在高中时就打过网球，这太棒了。

I did not know this.

我不知道这一点。

Thanks for sharing that.

感谢您分享这一点。

Timothy, this was incredible.

蒂莫西，这太不可思议了。

I think this is going to help a lot of people figure out marketing, run more paid growth ads, figure out who to bring in to help them do this.

我认为这将帮助很多人了解营销，投放更多付费增长广告，找出应该聘请谁来帮助他们做到这一点。

Thank you so much for sharing and for being here.

非常感谢您的分享和来到这里。

Timothy Davis: Of course.

蒂莫西·戴维斯：当然。

Appreciate the time.

珍惜时间。

Bye, everyone.: Thank you so much for listening.

再见，大家：非常感谢您的聆听。

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如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at Lennyspodcast.com.

您可以在 Lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。