Inside Etsy’s product, growth, and marketplace evolution | Tim Holley (VP of Product)
Tim Holley: When the CDC mandated face masks in early April 2020, that's when essentially we went to sleep one day with our typical April traffic, typical April sales, and then it was Black Friday overnight.
蒂姆·霍利：当 CDC 在 2020 年 4 月上旬强制要求佩戴口罩时，我们基本上就在 4 月典型的交通流量和典型的销售中入睡了，然后就是黑色星期五的夜晚。
And in part, because nobody knew where to find face masks.
部分原因是没有人知道在哪里可以找到口罩。
Our sellers are incredibly astute business people.
我们的卖家都是非常精明的商人。
And if you had been making wedding dresses, and you know how to sew, and you've got material, and you've got a bit of time, making a mask is quite a simple task.
如果你一直在制作婚纱，并且你知道如何缝纫，并且你有材料，并且你有一些时间，那么制作面具是一项相当简单的任务。
And so we just saw this huge surge of demand, and then supply rising to meet it.
因此，我们刚刚看到需求的巨大激增，然后供应量的增加来满足需求。
Tim Holley: And we did something that as far as I know, we've never done in Etsy's past, which is we put out a call to our sellers to say, "Now's the time.
蒂姆·霍利：据我所知，我们做了一些在 Etsy 过去从未做过的事情，那就是我们打电话给我们的卖家说：“现在是时候了。
Now's the time to make face masks if you can." And so it felt like this is our time to shine, to really help sellers continue to make sales, to help buyers find this critical item that they were looking for.
如果可以的话，现在是时候制作口罩了。”所以感觉现在是我们大放异彩的时候了，真正帮助卖家继续销售，帮助买家找到他们正在寻找的这个关键商品。
Tim Holley: And then from there, things kept going, and we really worked hard to make sure that the story was not just about face masks for our buyers, that they understood that Etsy's a place for so many different categories and so many different items.
蒂姆·霍利：从那时起，事情一直在继续，我们真的很努力地确保这个故事不仅仅是关于我们的买家的口罩，他们明白 Etsy 是一个拥有如此多不同类别和如此多不同商品的地方。
Lenny: Welcome to Lenny's Podcast, where I interview world-class product leaders and growth experts to learn from their hard win experiences, building and growing today's most successful products.
莱尼：欢迎来到莱尼的播客，在这里我采访了世界一流的产品领导者和增长专家，学习他们的来之不易的经验，构建和发展当今最成功的产品。
Lenny: Today my guest is Tim Holley.
莱尼：今天我的客人是蒂姆·霍利。
Tim is VP of product at Etsy, where he's been for over 10 years, and has helped grow Etsy from around 500 million in GMV to over 13 billion in GMV.
Tim 是 Etsy 的产品副总裁，已在该公司工作了 10 多年，帮助 Etsy 从 GMV 约 5 亿增长到 GMV 超过 130 亿。
This episode is for anyone working on marketplace, or looking for ideas to increase growth, or looking for advice on how to change your internal culture.
本集适合任何在市场工作、寻找促进增长的想法、或寻求如何改变内部文化的建议的人。
We get into the big cultural transition that Etsy went through that took them to the next level.
我们进入了 Etsy 所经历的重大文化转型，这将他们带到了一个新的水平。
Lots of examples of product changes that helped them with conversion, acquisition, and retention.
许多产品变更的例子帮助他们实现了转化、获取和保留。
Plus how Etsy organizes their teams, thinks about supply versus demand dynamics, how Etsy got started with growing their initial supply, and also their initial demand.
另外，Etsy 如何组织团队、考虑供应与需求动态、Etsy 如何开始增加初始供应以及初始需求。
Plus a bunch of frameworks and hiring advice, and so much more.
加上一堆框架和招聘建议等等。
Enjoy this episode with Tim Holley after a short word from our sponsors.
在我们的赞助商简短致辞后，请与蒂姆·霍利一起欣赏这一集。
Lenny: This episode is brought to you by productroadmap.ai and Ignition.
Lenny：本集由 Productroadmap.ai 和 Ignition 为您带来。
Productroadmap.ai is the first AI roadmapping suite.
Productroadmap.ai 是第一个人工智能路线图套件。
It helps ensure roadmaps drive revenue, by instantly aligning product with your sales and marketing teams to capture upsell opportunities.
它可以立即使产品与您的销售和营销团队保持一致，以抓住追加销售机会，从而帮助确保路线图增加收入。
Lenny: Built by early leaders from and Craft, it automatically identifies feature gaps from your CRM data and your customer conversations, adds them to shareable roadmaps, easily prioritized by revenue impact, and then seamlessly closes the loop with sales reps via targeted notifications when feature gaps are closed.
Lenny：它由 Craft 的早期领导者构建，可自动识别 CRM 数据和客户对话中的功能差距，将其添加到可共享的路线图中，根据收入影响轻松确定优先级，然后在功能差距缩小时通过有针对性的通知与销售代表无缝地关闭循环。
Lenny: As part of Ignition's broader go-to-market operating system, productroadmap.ai can also help create better handoffs and collaboration with product marketing teams, by giving both teams the tools to research, plan, orchestrate, and measure the process of building products and going to market.
Lenny：作为 Ignition 更广泛的上市操作系统的一部分，productroadmap.ai 还可以帮助与产品营销团队建立更好的交接和协作，为两个团队提供研究、规划、编排和衡量构建产品和上市过程的工具。
Packed with integrations, AI automation, and communication tools, it's truly a one-stop shop for product and marketing to bring things from concept to launch.
它充满了集成、人工智能自动化和通信工具，是真正的一站式产品和营销商店，可将产品从概念到发布。
To sign up, go to productroadmap.ai, and use promo code Lenny to get 75% off your first year.
要注册，请访问productroadmap.ai，并使用促销代码Lenny 第一年可享受 75% 的折扣。
Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Eppo.
Lenny：这一集是 Eppo 为您带来的。
Eppo is a next generation A/B testing platform built by Airbnb alums for modern growth teams.
Eppo 是 Airbnb 校友为现代增长团队打造的下一代 A/B 测试平台。
Companies like DraftKings, Zapier, ClickUp, Twitch, and Cameo rely on Eppo to power their experiments.
DraftKings、Zapier、ClickUp、Twitch 和 Cameo 等公司依靠 Eppo 来支持他们的实验。
Lenny: Wherever you work, running experiments is increasingly essential, but there are no commercial tools that integrate with a modern growth team stack.
Lenny：无论您在哪里工作，进行实验都变得越来越重要，但是没有可以与现代增长团队堆栈集成的商业工具。
This leads to wasted time building internal tools, or trying to run your own experiments through a clunky marketing tool.
这会导致浪费时间构建内部工具，或尝试通过笨重的营销工具进行自己的实验。
Lenny: When I was at Airbnb, one of the things that I loved most about working there was our experimentation platform, where I was able to slice and dice data by device types, country, user stage.
Lenny：当我在 Airbnb 工作时，我最喜欢在那里工作的事情之一就是我们的实验平台，在这里我能够按设备类型、国家/地区、用户阶段对数据进行切片和切块。
Eppo does all that and more, delivering results quickly, avoiding annoying prolonged analytic cycles, and helping you easily get to the root cause of any issue you discover.
Eppo 可以做到这一切，甚至更多，快速提供结果，避免烦人的长时间分析周期，并帮助您轻松找到所发现问题的根本原因。
Eppo lets you go beyond basic click through metrics, and instead use your north star metrics like activation, retention, subscription, and payments.
Eppo 可以让您超越基本的点击量指标，而是使用您的北极星指标，例如激活、保留、订阅和付款。
Eppo supports tests on the front end, on the backend, email marketing, even machine learning claims.
Eppo 支持前端、后端、电子邮件营销、甚至机器学习声明的测试。
Check out Eppo at geteppo.com.
请访问 geteppo.com 查看 Eppo。
That's geteppo.com, and 10X your experiment velocity.
这就是 geteppo.com，您的实验速度是原来的 10 倍。
Lenny: Tim, thank you so much for being here.
莱尼：蒂姆，非常感谢你来到这里。
Welcome to the podcast.
欢迎来到播客。
Tim Holley: Thank you for having me on, Lenny, really appreciate it.
蒂姆·霍利：谢谢你邀请我参加，莱尼，真的很感激。
Looking forward to it.
期待它。
Lenny: I'm looking forward to it even more.
莱尼：我更加期待了。
So you've been at Etsy for I think over 10 years, although I did notice that you left for a year and ended up leading product at SoulCycle.
我认为你在 Etsy 工作了 10 多年，尽管我确实注意到你离开了一年并最终在 SoulCycle 担任主导产品。
So first of all, what is that about?
首先，这是关于什么的？
What happened there?
那里发生了什么？
Tim Holley: Yeah, at the time, I'd been at Etsy for over six years, and I just had the itch.
Tim Holley：是的，当时我已经在 Etsy 工作了六年多，我只是很渴望。
I wanted to go work on a different product, build different things, experience different industry.
我想去开发不同的产品，构建不同的东西，体验不同的行业。
Along, had a theory that working on the proactive side of healthcare, meaning fitness and wellness, is how you achieve better outcomes.
一直以来，有一个理论认为，积极主动地开展医疗保健工作，即健身和健康，才能取得更好的结果。
And it felt like SoulCycle was a really interesting way to do that.
感觉 SoulCycle 是一种非常有趣的方式来做到这一点。
Pretty well-known brand, high street presence in many cities.
相当知名的品牌，在许多城市的高街都有存在。
Could you affect change through that?
你能通过它影响改变吗？
Tim Holley: Ultimately realized it wasn't a place that I wanted to spend a ton of time and energy.
蒂姆·霍利：最终意识到这不是一个我想花费大量时间和精力的地方。
And so through a lot of soul-searching, grown, I know I found my way back to Etsy, really anchoring on three things.
因此，经过大量的自我反省和成长，我知道我找到了回到 Etsy 的方法，真正立足于三件事。
One, working on a product that you care about that adds value to other people's lives.
第一，开发您关心的产品，为其他人的生活增加价值。
And so what we do every day at Etsy is we help our sellers make sales, and that's really meaningful for the vast majority of them.
因此，我们在 Etsy 每天所做的就是帮助我们的卖家进行销售，这对绝大多数卖家来说都非常有意义。
It's reaching an audience that they wouldn't be able to reach.
它正在接触到他们无法接触到的受众。
And so that feels like a really great thing to get up every morning and work on.
所以每天早上起床继续工作感觉真是一件很棒的事情。
Tim Holley: And so that's maybe the business and the product side, and the other side is people.
蒂姆·霍利：这可能是业务和产品方面，另一方面是人。
It might sound a little twee, but just working with people who you can learn from and who you respect, and ultimately can have fun working with, it matters a ton.
这听起来可能有点矫揉造作，但只要与那些你可以向你学习、你尊敬的人一起工作，并最终能够享受工作的乐趣，那就非常重要了。
We spend a lot of time of our days and our lives at work, and so doing it with people who you really value, it's awesome.
我们每天和生活中的很多时间都花在工作上，所以和你真正重视的人一起工作，这真是太棒了。
Tim Holley: I have one memory that we used to have an engineer who used to be a standup comedian, and so that really pushed the boundaries of what a standup meant every day.
蒂姆·霍利（Tim Holley）：我记得我们曾经有一位工程师，他曾经是一名单口喜剧演员，因此这确实突破了单口喜剧日常意义的界限。
And it was always a little fun, a little exciting.
这总是有点有趣，有点令人兴奋。
You never quite knew what you were going to get.
你永远不知道你会得到什么。
And so just little things like that, they make the work life really, really great.
就这样的小事，它们让工作生活变得非常非常美好。
Lenny: That's hilarious.
莱尼：这太搞笑了。
I never thought it that way.
我从来没有这样想过。
I feel like every standup needs a standup comedian in their standup.
我觉得每个单口喜剧都需要一位单口喜剧演员。
Sounds like that should be part of agile.
听起来这应该是敏捷的一部分。
We should need to change the manifesto.
我们应该需要改变宣言。
Lenny: So I've always seen the Etsy journey from the outside, and so there's a few things that I've always wanted to dig into.
Lenny：我一直从外部观察 Etsy 的发展历程，所以有一些事情我一直想深入研究。
One is I just remember this New York Times story back in the day when your current CEO Josh Silverman joined, and it felt like a huge moment in the history of Etsy, where it feels like it just kind of transitioned from this touchy feely, everyone loves each other moment to just like, "Hey guys, we got to build a real business here that's sustainable." And it feels like many startups have to go through that transition where it's like, "Nothing's ever going to change.
一是我只记得《纽约时报》的这篇故事，当时你们现任首席执行官乔什·西尔弗曼 (Josh Silverman) 加入，这感觉就像是 Etsy 历史上的一个重要时刻，感觉就像是从这种敏感的感觉、每个人都彼此相爱的时刻转变为“嘿伙计们，我们必须在这里建立一个真正可持续的业务。”感觉很多初创公司都必须经历这样的转变，“一切都不会改变。
It's going to be so we're all family here," to just, "Things have to change.
事情会变成这样，我们都是这里的家人，”只是，“事情必须改变。
This isn't working." I'm curious what that was like living through that.
这是行不通的。”我很好奇经历那件事是什么感觉。
Tim Holley: Yeah, I mean the first thing I'll say is it was a hard transition, and I was personally fortunate in the sense that the transition you're speaking of in 2017 also happened to coincide with rounds of layoffs.
蒂姆·霍利：是的，我的意思是，我首先要说的是，这是一次艰难的转型，而且我个人很幸运，因为你所说的 2017 年转型也恰好与几轮裁员同时发生。
And I was super fortunate that I didn't lose my job, so I don't want to presuppose that my version of hard is the same as another person's version of hard.
我非常幸运，我没有失去工作，所以我不想预设我的困难版本与另一个人的困难版本相同。
Tim Holley: But I think a lot of us, and myself included, we had a lot of our identity tied up in Etsy and what we're doing, a really deep passion for the mission of the business and what we're trying to achieve.
Tim Holley：但我认为我们很多人，包括我自己，我们的很多身份都与 Etsy 和我们正在做的事情紧密相关，对企业使命和我们正在努力实现的目标有着非常深厚的热情。
I just mentioned helping small independent sellers.
我刚才提到帮助小型独立卖家。
And just to be clear, that hasn't gone away.
需要明确的是，这种情况并没有消失。
I think that that's something we've been really successful at pulling through as a line that was true 10 years ago and is still true today.
我认为我们确实成功地做到了这一点，这在 10 年前是正确的，在今天仍然是正确的。
But it was a time when we were really forced to rethink a lot of how we worked and what we worked on.
但那段时间我们确实被迫重新思考我们的工作方式和工作内容。
Tim Holley: Just to use a small example, we had had a pretty entrenched consensus-based culture, where we would really debate a lot of decisions and a lot of features.
蒂姆·霍利：仅举一个小例子，我们有一种根深蒂固的基于共识的文化，我们会真正讨论很多决策和很多功能。
And on the one hand, I think that that does lead to good outcomes, right?
一方面，我认为这确实会带来好的结果，对吧？
Thoughtful products that have a lot of viewpoints really baked into the core of the thinking.
具有很多观点的深思熟虑的产品确实融入了思维的核心。
Tim Holley: On the other hand, not fast.
蒂姆·霍利：另一方面，速度并不快。
When you have your identity tied up in the company and what you do, and then you're kind of being asked or you realize that you need to change how you're working, it can feel pretty existential.
当你的身份与公司和你所做的事情联系在一起，然后你被问到或者你意识到你需要改变你的工作方式时，它会让人感觉非常存在主义。
It's really cutting to the core of who you are and things that you hold really true.
它确实切入了你是谁以及你真正坚持的事情的核心。
Tim Holley: The reality is it's a business, and we needed to get faster at launching features, improving the experience, and ultimately, having a predictable way to drive GMS, gross merchandise sales, which is our north star KPI.
Tim Holley：现实情况是，这是一项业务，我们需要更快地推出功能、改善体验，并最终以可预测的方式来推动 GMS（商品销售总额），这是我们的北极星 KPI。
And so it definitely took some time to work through that, but we got to a good place, and the results over the last few years to some degree speak for themselves.
因此，确实需要一些时间来解决这个问题，但我们已经取得了不错的进展，过去几年的结果在某种程度上说明了一切。
But it was a testing and trying time for sure.
但这无疑是一个考验和尝试的时期。
Lenny: I'm always curious how these changes play out and what works in making change.
莱尼：我一直很好奇这些变化是如何发挥作用的，以及什么在推动变化中发挥作用。
Is there something that you remember that Josh did well or that leaders did well to help that transition?
您是否记得乔什在某些方面做得很好，或者领导者在帮助这种转变方面做得很好？
Tim Holley: One thing that is just such a standout is having...
蒂姆·霍利：最引人注目的一件事是……
And I mentioned GMS as our north star KPI, just having that, being absolutely front and center, being the drumbeat that we talk about in every meeting, the measuring stick that we measure the success of launches against.
我提到 GMS 是我们的北极星 KPI，它绝对是最前沿和中心的位置，是我们在每次会议上谈论的鼓点，是我们衡量发布成功与否的衡量标准。
And maybe it's a bit surprising, but we didn't have that type of clarity in the past.
也许这有点令人惊讶，但我们过去没有这种清晰度。
Tim Holley: And so rallying everyone around that.
蒂姆·霍利：所以让所有人都团结起来。
And you might not pay into it directly.
而且您可能不会直接付款。
You might pay into it through one or two levels of abstraction, but you're still clearly aligned with what the company's trying to achieve.
您可能会通过一两个抽象级别为此付出代价，但您仍然清楚地与公司想要实现的目标保持一致。
And that was something that was a really stark difference, and I think that helped.
这是一个非常明显的区别，我认为这很有帮助。
Tim Holley: It helped the prioritization discussion a lot.
Tim Holley：这对优先级讨论很有帮助。
If you can't really articulate why this thing matters to driving GMS and the type of timeframe that we're talking about, be it a quarter or 12 months out, and different projects will contribute in different ways.
如果您无法真正阐明为什么这件事对推动 GMS 很重要，以及我们正在讨论的时间框架类型（无论是一个季度还是 12 个月），不同的项目将以不同的方式做出贡献。
But that was just one huge standout, and that's been a drumbeat over the years that let's continue to stay focused on that as a metric.
但这只是一个巨大的亮点，多年来这一直是我们继续关注这一指标的一个鼓点。
Tim Holley: The other thing to me is bringing an outside in perspective, really benchmarking against your competitors and your competitive set.
蒂姆·霍利：对我来说另一件事是从外部角度看待问题，真正与你的竞争对手和竞争对手进行比较。
Don't get me wrong, I think Etsy is a unique marketplace.
不要误会我的意思，我认为 Etsy 是一个独特的市场。
Our sellers are independent sellers.
我们的卖家是独立卖家。
They sell unique items.
他们出售独特的物品。
The reality though is that our buyers are shopping all over the internet.
但现实是，我们的买家正在网上购物。
They're shopping on High Street, they're shopping in different places.
他们在大街购物，他们在不同的地方购物。
And so we have to be aware of the broader context of where they're spending their dollars helps us make better decisions over time.
因此，我们必须了解他们的资金花在哪里的更广泛背景，这有助于我们随着时间的推移做出更好的决策。
Tim Holley: And so on the one hand, there is no one-to-one direct competitor to Etsy.
Tim Holley：因此，一方面，Etsy 没有一对一的直接竞争对手。
But there are other businesses and other brands that are competing for eyeballs or wallets that we need to be aware of.
但我们需要注意的是，还有其他企业和其他品牌正在争夺眼球或钱包。
And bringing that into the discussion was a really helpful one that helped ground us in the overall dynamics of what buyers are doing,, where they're spending their money, and how they think about us.
将这一点纳入讨论非常有帮助，它帮助我们了解买家在做什么、他们把钱花在哪里以及他们如何看待我们的整体动态。
Lenny: Is there anything else you took away as a leader from watching that shift, that you bring to making change, transitioning people to working in a different way?
莱尼：作为一名领导者，您从观察这一转变中学到了什么，可以带来什么改变，让人们以不同的方式工作？
Tim Holley: Definitely focus on a clear KPI that the teams can rally around.
Tim Holley：绝对要关注团队可以团结起来的明确 KPI。
That's one.
这是一个。
The other is...
另一个是...
And I respect Josh immensely on his ability to tell a really clear narrative and use that consistently over time.
我非常尊重乔什，因为他有能力讲述一个非常清晰的叙述，并随着时间的推移始终如一地使用它。
The old adage of you need to say something three times before people understand it.
俗话说，一句话要说三遍，人们才明白。
I would wager you need to say it another three times before they internalize it.
我敢打赌你需要再说三遍才能让他们内化。
[NEW_PARAGRAPH]And having that be part of the day-to-day conversation, it seems like such a small thing, but it adds up to having clarity on goal, the KPI point, and then clarity on why, the narrative point.
[NEW_PARAGRAPH]让它成为日常对话的一部分，这似乎是一件小事，但它累积起来就意味着明确目标、KPI 点，然后明确原因、叙述点。
If you can marry those two things, I think that's an incredibly powerful combination.
如果你能将这两件事结合起来，我认为这是一个非常强大的组合。
Lenny: While we're on this topic, I'm curious what Etsy's values are.
Lenny：当我们讨论这个话题时，我很好奇 Etsy 的价值观是什么。
I imagine you've codified a few, we call them core values at are Airbnbs or something like that at Etsy.
我想你已经编纂了一些，我们在 Airbnb 或 Etsy 称之为核心价值观。
And if so, I'm curious what they are.
如果是这样，我很好奇它们是什么。
Tim Holley: We call them guiding principles at Etsy.
Tim Holley：我们在 Etsy 称之为指导原则。
We have a few of them, and I won't go through all of them, but just to give you a flavor, one of them is around digging deeper, and that really speaks to aiming to really understand the why behind a change, to really push on the insights that we're learning through qual or quant research, or other inputs that we might be looking at in order to make the best decision possible with the information we have at the time.
我们有其中一些，我不会详细介绍所有这些，但只是为了让您了解一下，其中一个是深入挖掘，这确实意味着旨在真正理解变革背后的原因，真正推动我们通过定性或定量研究或我们可能正在考虑的其他输入来学习的见解，以便利用我们当时拥有的信息做出最佳决策。
Tim Holley: Another example of a principle is minimizing waste.
蒂姆·霍利：原则的另一个例子是尽量减少浪费。
It aligns with how we think about product development, which is, we want to know, is the work we're doing adding value to the customer and the business?
它符合我们对产品开发的看法，即我们想知道我们正在做的工作是否为客户和业务增加了价值？
And so something that isn't working out a lot of times in product development we're wrong.
因此，在产品开发中多次失败的事情我们就错了。
And so being able to say, "No, this is no longer valuable, we need to move on to the next thing," has been something that's served us really well.
因此，能够说“不，这不再有价值，我们需要继续下一件事”，这对我们来说非常有用。
Tim Holley: Ultimately, we are quite a small team.
Tim Holley：归根结底，我们是一个很小的团队。
There's just over 2,000 people in the business, and if you then scale back to engineering and product, we're not big.
我们的业务只有 2,000 多人，如果再缩减到工程和产品领域，我们的规模并不大。
And so we have to be really diligent about how we're investing our time and our resources in order to be successful.
因此，我们必须非常努力地投入时间和资源才能取得成功。
Lenny: Awesome.
莱尼：太棒了。
Okay, so another big moment as an outsider that it feels like Etsy went through is during Covid.
好吧，作为一个局外人，Etsy 经历的另一个重要时刻是在新冠疫情期间。
There's this huge transition to e-commerce, and I think Etsy was a big beneficiary of that.
电子商务发生了巨大的转变，我认为 Etsy 是其中的一大受益者。
People wanting to buy more stuff online, go to stores less.
人们想在网上购买更多东西，减少去商店的次数。
And it feels like it was a huge accelerant for the business.
感觉这对业务来说是一个巨大的促进剂。
I'm curious just what that experience was like leading the product team through that.
我很好奇领导产品团队经历这一切是什么样的。
Tim Holley: It was quite wild, I'll say that.
蒂姆·霍利：我想说，这非常疯狂。
And to be more specific, as many or all of us did in probably the world of tech at least, we went home not knowing what the next weeks or weeks as we thought would bring, turns out years.
更具体地说，正如我们许多人或所有人所做的那样，至少在科技领域，我们回家时并不知道接下来的几周或几周会带来什么，结果是几年。
But when the CDC mandated face masks in, I think it was early April 2020, that's when essentially we went to sleep one day with our typical April traffic, typical April sales, and then it was Black Friday overnight.
但是，当 CDC 强制要求佩戴口罩时，我认为是在 2020 年 4 月初，那时我们基本上就带着典型的 4 月交通、典型的 4 月销售入睡了，然后就是黑色星期五一夜。
Tim Holley: And in part because nobody knew where to find face masks.
蒂姆·霍利：部分原因是没有人知道在哪里可以找到口罩。
Our sellers are incredibly astute business people.
我们的卖家都是非常精明的商人。
And if you had been making wedding dresses, and you know how to sew, and you've got material, and you've got a bit of time, making a mask is quite a simple task.
如果你一直在制作婚纱，并且你知道如何缝纫，并且你有材料，并且你有一些时间，那么制作面具是一项相当简单的任务。
And so we just saw this huge surge of demand, and then supply rising to meet it.
因此，我们刚刚看到需求的巨大激增，然后供应量的增加来满足需求。
Tim Holley: And we did something that far as I know we've never done an Etsy's past, which is we put out a call to our sellers to say, "Now's the time.
蒂姆·霍利：据我所知，我们做了一件 Etsy 过去从未做过的事情，那就是我们打电话给我们的卖家说：“现在是时候了。
Now's the time to make face masks if you can." And so it felt like this is our time to shine, to really help sellers continue to make sales, to help buyers find this critical item that they were looking for.
如果可以的话，现在是时候制作口罩了。”所以感觉现在是我们大放异彩的时候了，真正帮助卖家继续销售，帮助买家找到他们正在寻找的这个关键商品。
Tim Holley: So it was a very, very exciting couple of weeks while we were kind of adapting to that change.
蒂姆·霍利：所以这是非常非常令人兴奋的几周，我们正在适应这种变化。
And we were just really...
我们真的...
Every day there would be standups.
每天都会有站立会议。
"What's happening?
“发生什么事了？
What do we need to change?"
我们需要改变什么？”
Tim Holley: I remember distinctly, we were worried about certain sellers not being able to meet the demand that they were seeing.
蒂姆·霍利：我清楚地记得，我们担心某些卖家无法满足他们所看到的需求。
And so we did the old-fashioned thing, of not personally, but we called them and we said, "How are you guys doing?
所以我们做了老式的事情，不是亲自去，而是打电话给他们，我们说：“你们好吗？
What can we do to help?" And some people said, "We've got this, don't worry.
我们能提供什么帮助吗？”有些人说：“我们有这个，不用担心。
This is squarely in our wheelhouse.
这正是我们的驾驶室。
We can absolutely meet the supply." And others said, "Actually, we need a little bit of help.
我们绝对可以满足供应。”还有人说：“实际上，我们需要一点帮助。
We need to take a pause for a moment while we catch up with all these orders, and then we can come back to taking more." [NEW_PARAGRAPH]And so just getting back to good old-fashioned know your customer, what do they need from you at that moment was just a really kind of powerful thing that took away from that time.
我们需要暂停一下，以便赶上所有这些订单，然后我们可以回来接受更多订单。” [NEW_PARAGRAPH]因此，回到传统的了解客户的方式，了解他们在那一刻需要从您那里得到什么，这确实是一种非常强大的东西，从那时起就消失了。
Tim Holley: And then from there, things kept going, and we really worked hard to make sure that the story was not just about face masks for our buyers, that they understood that Etsy's a place for so many different categories and so many different items.
蒂姆·霍利：从那时起，事情一直在继续，我们真的很努力地确保这个故事不仅仅是关于我们的买家的口罩，他们明白 Etsy 是一个拥有如此多不同类别和如此多不同商品的地方。
And that was then the next phase of the challenge.
这就是挑战的下一阶段。
We got a huge influx of new or reactivated buyers.
我们迎来了大量新买家或重新激活的买家。
How do we keep them around?
我们如何让他们留在身边？
How do we make sure that the product does a little bit more work to retain them, and can really have hooks that bring them back time and again?
我们如何确保产品能够多做一些工作来留住他们，并且真正能够吸引他们一次又一次地回来？
And so that was kind of the journey that we then went on mid-2020, to probably the subsequent 18 months or so.
这就是我们在 2020 年中期（可能是接下来的 18 个月左右）所经历的旅程。
Lenny: Is there anything you learned as a leader working in leading teams through that time?
Lenny：作为一名领导者，您在领导团队的过程中学到了什么？
It must've been a pretty surreal experience, a lot of stress, people worrying about their own health.
这一定是一次非常超现实的经历，压力很大，人们担心自己的健康。
Tim Holley: I was one of the fortunate ones back then.
蒂姆·霍利：当时我是幸运者之一。
No kids, worked in an industry that was clearly critical at the time.
没有孩子，在当时显然很关键的行业工作。
So I am in awe of how parents worked through that time.
所以我对父母如何度过那段时间感到敬畏。
So stressful yes, but not to the extent that other people experienced the stress of Covid.
是的，压力很大，但还没有达到其他人经历新冠病毒压力的程度。
Tim Holley: We just tried a lot of stuff.
蒂姆·霍利：我们刚刚尝试了很多东西。
I remember early on, I think we had maybe even daily, but at least three times a week coffee chats with the team, just like, "How are you guys doing?
我记得早些时候，我想我们甚至可能每天、但每周至少三次与团队喝咖啡聊天，就像，“你们好吗？
What's going on?" And at a certain point we realized all we're talking about is exactly the same things.
发生什么事了？”在某个时刻，我们意识到我们所谈论的都是完全相同的事情。
Nobody wants to be on more calls and more video video chats.
没有人愿意进行更多的通话和更多的视频聊天。
And so we just continued to evolve, and really try to keep a pulse on what the team needs.
因此，我们只是继续发展，并真正努力了解团队的需求。
Tim Holley: And that, like I said, given context of being parents or whatever, differed pretty dramatically person to person.
蒂姆·霍利：就像我说的，考虑到为人父母或其他什么背景，人与人之间的差异非常大。
So definitely wasn't a one size fits all solution.
所以绝对不是一刀切的解决方案。
That's more on the people side.
这更多是在人民方面。
Tim Holley: I think on the product side, as I mentioned, we were really starting to get focused on driving retention, or maybe said slightly differently, driving frequency.
蒂姆·霍利：我认为在产品方面，正如我所提到的，我们确实开始专注于提高保留率，或者可能稍微不同地说，提高频率。
And that was a newer topic for us.
这对我们来说是一个较新的话题。
We've long at Etsy been a really, and maybe rose-tinted glasses speaking a little bit, but a really great experiment, A/B testing driven culture.
长期以来，我们在 Etsy 一直是一个真正的、也许有点乐观的人，但这是一个非常伟大的实验，A/B 测试驱动的文化。
And so when you think about things like retention, you can absolutely test, course I'm not saying you can't, but you're looking at a different time horizon.
因此，当您考虑保留率之类的事情时，您绝对可以进行测试，当然我并不是说您不能，但您正在考虑不同的时间范围。
Instead of someone making a purchase in that visit or in a week, you're looking at do they come back in 30 days, in 60 days, in 90 days?
您关注的不是某人在那次访问或一周内进行购买，而是他们会在 30 天、60 天或 90 天后回来吗？
Tim Holley: And so that forced us out of our comfort zone to some degree in terms of how we understand, how we measure change, how long we're willing to wait to see it show up.
蒂姆·霍利：因此，在我们如何理解、如何衡量变化以及我们愿意等待多长时间看到变化出现方面，这在某种程度上迫使我们走出了舒适区。
Back to the incrementality point on minimizing waste, is this actually adding value to the business?
回到最大限度减少浪费的增量点，这真的能为业务增加价值吗？
And so those were great challenges to tackle, of course on a pretty heightened degree of intensity and focus from the business.
因此，这些都是需要应对的巨大挑战，当然，业务的强度和关注度也相当高。
But that was an exciting time.
但那是一个激动人心的时刻。
Lenny: Okay.
莱尼：好的。
So speaking of that, I want to chat about the marketplace and the marketplace you've built and things you've learned from building.
说到这一点，我想谈谈市场和你建立的市场以及你从建立中学到的东西。
I think it's one of the, I don't know, maybe top 10 marketplace businesses in the world, somewhere in there.
我认为它是，我不知道，也许是世界十大市场企业之一，在其中的某个地方。
And first of all, I'm curious just broadly, what have you learned is really important to just building a really successful thriving marketplace?
首先，我很好奇，您学到了什么对于建立一个真正成功的繁荣市场来说真正重要？
And then I'll dig into more details.
然后我将深入研究更多细节。
But just broadly, is there anything that comes to mind?
但总的来说，有什么想到的吗？
Tim Holley: This narrative is still there, but I think we really focused heavily on the seller side, so the supply side of the business early on.
蒂姆·霍利：这种说法仍然存在，但我认为我们实际上非常关注卖方，因此早期业务的供应方。
And we really immersed ourselves in who sellers are, what they need, and how what they need maybe differs from what the solutions that they can find elsewhere.
我们真正深入了解卖家是谁，他们需要什么，以及他们需要的可能与他们在其他地方找到的解决方案有何不同。
Tim Holley: Back in the day, we were doing studio visits with sellers.
蒂姆·霍利：当时，我们正在与卖家一起参观工作室。
We were going to their workshops, we were going to their homes.
我们要去他们的工作室，去他们的家。
We were seeing how they make items, we were seeing how they package and ship them out.
我们看到他们如何制造物品，我们看到他们如何包装和运送它们。
We were bringing them into the office when we were running hack weeks to say, "Hey, we've got this crazy idea.
当我们进行黑客周时，我们把他们带到办公室说：“嘿，我们有这个疯狂的想法。
Is this interesting?" So trying to involve them in the product development process to the extent that it was reasonable or feasible.
这有趣吗？”因此，尝试让他们在合理或可行的范围内参与产品开发过程。
Tim Holley: And so I think that served us really well.
蒂姆·霍利：所以我认为这对我们很有帮助。
We have a very deep and rich understanding of our sellers.
我们对我们的卖家有非常深入和丰富的了解。
And then the next phase and the more recent phase has been, how do we create a world-class buyer experience that ultimately drives sales for our sellers?
然后下一阶段和最近的阶段是，我们如何创造世界一流的买家体验，最终推动卖家的销售？
Because when you have over 100 million items, all of which are unique, you've got a different challenge than when you have 10,000 SKUs that you could kind of find anywhere or on many retailers.
因为当您拥有超过 1 亿件商品（所有商品都是独一无二的）时，您面临的挑战与您拥有 10,000 个 SKU（您可以在任何地方或许多零售商处找到）时所面临的挑战不同。
Tim Holley: And so topics like structured data, topics like how do we help you gain confidence?
Tim Holley：结构化数据之类的主题，我们如何帮助您获得信心之类的主题？
Buyer this thing will meet your needs from a seller who you may never have heard of.
买家这个东西将满足您可能从未听说过的卖家的需求。
They don't have a brand that you you've ever encountered before.
他们没有您以前遇到过的品牌。
And so we have some kind of somewhat unique challenges on that front where we need to lean into themes that other marketplaces absolutely touch on.
因此，我们在这方面面临着一些独特的挑战，我们需要深入研究其他市场绝对涉及的主题。
Tim Holley: For example, customer reviews play a big role in our experience, but they play a heightened role given the things I mentioned, right?
蒂姆·霍利：例如，客户评论在我们的体验中发挥着重要作用，但鉴于我提到的事情，它们发挥着更大的作用，对吧？
Unique inventory from a seller that is maybe an independent person who is a single entrepreneur, it's one person.
来自卖家的独特库存，该卖家可能是一个独立的人，也是一个单一的企业家，它是一个人。
Lenny: So you mentioned that initially, the focus was on sellers, which is really interesting because a lot of marketplaces, first of all need to figure out which side do we focus on?
Lenny：所以你提到最初的重点是卖家，这真的很有趣，因为很多市场首先需要弄清楚我们关注哪一边？
Who do we cater to most?
我们最迎合谁？
And the way you described it is initially it was how do we make sure the sellers that are joining at Etsy are most well-served?
正如您最初描述的那样，我们如何确保加入 Etsy 的卖家得到最优质的服务？
And then later on it became more of a focus on the buyer side?
然后后来它变得更加关注买方方面？
Tim Holley: Yeah, I guess I'm painting it as a linear approach.
蒂姆·霍利：是的，我想我正在将其绘制为线性方法。
It certainly was not.
当然不是。
Because if you've got supply without demand, then you don't really have a marketplace.
因为如果只有供应而没有需求，那么就没有真正的市场。
If you've got demand and no supply to meet it, then you also don't have a marketplace.
如果你有需求但没有供应来满足它，那么你也没有市场。
So there's this flip-flop between, do you have enough supply to satiate the demand you have?
因此，存在这样的问题：您是否有足够的供应来满足您的需求？
And playing that out is certainly, I feel like art, not necessarily strictly science.
我感觉这当然是艺术，而不一定是严格的科学。
Lenny: Yeah.
莱尼：是的。
So I'm curious how you all think about that actually.
所以我很好奇你们实际上是怎么想的。
So at Airbnb, there's always this thinking of, who do we prioritize if we have to make a decision?
因此，在 Airbnb，我们总是会思考，如果我们必须做出决定，我们应该优先考虑谁？
is it host or guest?
是主人还是客人？
And it's shifted over the years at Airbnb.
多年来，Airbnb 的情况发生了转变。
How do you all think about that as a, "Here's who we're going to prioritize if we really have to make a decision"?
你们怎么看待“如果我们真的必须做出决定的话，我们要优先考虑的人”？
Tim Holley: And maybe to your point, that's also evolved at Etsy.
Tim Holley：也许就你的观点而言，Etsy 也已经实现了这一点。
And the place we're in at the moment is the job of a marketplace, even pre the technology definition of a marketplace is a seller will go there to make sales.
我们目前所处的位置是市场的工作，即使在市场的技术定义之前，卖家也会去那里进行销售。
And if they're not making sales, they probably won't go to that marketplace.
如果他们不进行销售，他们可能不会去那个市场。
And so we really see it as paramount that we have a qualified set of buyers who are looking for the items, the type of items our sellers are selling, and that we can help them make a purchase decision, and therefore a seller maker sale.
因此，我们确实认为最重要的是，我们拥有一批正在寻找商品的合格买家，我们的卖家正在销售的商品类型，并且我们可以帮助他们做出购买决定，从而帮助卖家做出销售。
Tim Holley: That doesn't mean that every single team is working on building features for buyers because it doesn't work.
蒂姆·霍利：这并不意味着每个团队都在为买家构建功能，因为它不起作用。
Not least because you have a limited piece of real estate marketplace.
尤其是因为您的房地产市场份额有限。
And if you have too many teams working on it at one time, you'll end up getting in each other's way, and you won't be that productive.
如果同时有太多团队在处理这一问题，最终会互相妨碍，而且效率也不会那么高。
And so of course, we have a team that's laser focused on improving the seller experience.
当然，我们有一个专注于改善卖家体验的团队。
How do they list their inventory?
他们如何列出库存？
How do they manage their sales?
他们如何管理销售？
How do they fulfill their items?
他们如何履行他们的物品？
As one example.
作为一个例子。
Tim Holley: But really back to the GMS is the north star, GMS represents a buyer buying from a seller.
Tim Holley：但真正回到 GMS 的是北极星，GMS 代表买家从卖家那里购买商品。
So it doesn't necessarily say build only for one of your audiences or one of your customers, but it says that that's really the job to be done here is helping facilitate that transaction.
因此，它不一定说只为您的一位受众或一位客户进行构建，但它表示这里真正要做的工作是帮助促进交易。
Lenny: That's exactly the same transition Airbnb went through.
莱尼：这与 Airbnb 经历的转变完全相同。
Initially it was focus on hosts, make sure hosts are the happiest people, and do everything we need to make them happy.
最初的重点是房东，确保房东是最快乐的人，并尽一切努力让他们快乐。
And then eventually the business is the customers buying the product, and you have to make sure that they're the happy people.
最终，业务就是购买产品的客户，你必须确保他们是快乐的人。
And sometimes you have to push hosts to do things they're not as excited to do for the good of the guest side.
有时，为了客方的利益，你必须迫使东道主去做一些他们不愿意做的事情。
Tim Holley: And I think it's also the fact that we as the marketplace, and I'm curious if this was true at Airbnb as well, but we have the insight into information, into data, that an individual seller won't.
蒂姆·霍利：我认为这也是一个事实，我们作为市场，我很好奇爱彼迎是否也是如此，但我们对信息、数据有洞察力，而个人卖家却没有。
And so we can help them make hopefully better decisions that lead to sales, leveraging the insights that we have.
因此，我们可以利用我们所拥有的见解，帮助他们做出更好的决策，从而促进销售。
Tim Holley: If you put an item on sale during this time period, chances are it's going to resonate with buyers, and you might get an incremental sale.
蒂姆·霍利：如果你在这段时间内出售一件商品，它很可能会引起买家的共鸣，并且你可能会获得增量销售。
And so trying to be really data-driven in how we help and guide sellers to take actions that we really believe will be valuable for them and their business, because simply, they're either a small business owner and so they don't have time to do that level of digging.
因此，我们在如何帮助和指导卖家采取我们真正认为对他们及其业务有价值的行动方面，努力做到真正的数据驱动，因为简单来说，他们要么是小企业主，所以他们没有时间进行这种程度的挖掘。
Or it's simply not accessible to them because they have the worldview of their business, and we're looking at the entirety of the marketplace.
或者他们根本无法访问，因为他们有自己的业务世界观，而我们正在关注整个市场。
Lenny: Maybe on this thread going a little nerdier, how do you think about supply constraint versus demand constraint?
莱尼：也许这个话题有点书呆子气，你如何看待供应限制与需求限制？
Is that something that comes up?
这是出现的事情吗？
I imagine maybe it's per category.
我想也许是按类别划分的。
Tim Holley: At the high level, we have 100 million items.
Tim Holley：从高水平来看，我们有 1 亿个项目。
So if you take that number at face value, you would think we do not have a supply constraint.
因此，如果您从表面上看这个数字，您会认为我们没有供应限制。
We want to drive buyers to that supply.
我们希望推动买家购买这种供应。
When you dig in maybe a more category, subcategory, sub subcategory level, that's where we do start to see pockets where, maybe we want to increase the type and the amount of inventory we have in wall decor.
当你挖掘更多类别、子类别、子子类别级别时，我们确实开始看到口袋，也许我们想增加墙壁装饰的类型和库存量。
Seeing something behind you, that might not be the right example.
看到你身后的东西，这可能不是正确的例子。
But that's where we then start to focus and say, are there areas where we want to lean in?
但这就是我们开始关注的地方，并说，是否有我们想要倾斜的领域？
Tim Holley: Ultimately, really thinking about, how do we help buyers choose?
Tim Holley：最终，真正思考的是，我们如何帮助买家选择？
Because that's when you have 100 million items and even in a sub subcategory or for a specific search query, you still generally have a lot of results to choose from.
因为当您拥有 1 亿个项目时，即使在子类别或特定搜索查询中，您通常仍然有很多结果可供选择。
How do you distinguish one item or one seller from another, based on the needs that you have?
您如何根据您的需求区分一件商品或某个卖家？
When is it going to arrive?
什么时候到？
How much does it cost?
它要多少钱？
Is it this size or that size?
是这个尺寸还是那个尺寸？
So really trying to lean into those types of things.
所以真的很想尝试这些类型的事情。
And again, to some degree that's econ 101.
再说一次，在某种程度上，这就是经济 101。
But given the scale we're at, it is a pretty unique challenge.
但考虑到我们的规模，这是一个非常独特的挑战。
Lenny: What are ways you encourage your sellers to offer the things that you think you're lacking?
莱尼：你用什么方法鼓励卖家提供你认为自己缺少的东西？
Tim Holley: Back to that data-driven point, right?
蒂姆·霍利：回到数据驱动的观点，对吧？
If we can clearly articulate that if you show more photos, you will help buyers understand your item in new ways, in deeper ways, then you're more likely to make a sale.
如果我们能够清楚地表明，如果您展示更多照片，您将帮助买家以新的方式、更深入的方式了解您的商品，那么您就更有可能达成销售。
That's maybe a somewhat reductive example, but those are the types of things where we generally know either through the data that we observe based on activity on the marketplace, and/or through the research we're doing, that this will be valuable.
这可能是一个有点简化的例子，但这些是我们通常通过基于市场活动观察到的数据和/或通过我们正在进行的研究知道的事情类型，这将是有价值的。
The challenge is often, we have so many things that we want our sellers to do.
挑战往往在于，我们有很多事情需要卖家做。
What's the most important thing for them to do right now?
他们现在最重要的事情是什么？
Tim Holley: And that maybe changes somewhat seasonally.
蒂姆·霍利：这可能会随着季节的变化而有所变化。
We're slowly starting to get towards the holiday season.
我们正慢慢开始迎接假期。
And that just has a heightened purchase.
这只会增加购买量。
It's a heightened time of purchasing.
现在正是购买高峰期。
And contrast that with when it's around Mother's Day, maybe different type of inventory works really well.
与母亲节前后相比，也许不同类型的库存效果确实很好。
And so we need different inputs from our sellers.
因此，我们需要卖家提供不同的意见。
Because ultimately, they're business people.
因为归根结底，他们是商人。
They have limited time in the day, and they want to spend time making.
他们一天的时间有限，他们想花时间去创作。
So how can we make sure that the time they spend on Etsy, managing their inventory, offering customer support is as valuable as possible?
那么，我们如何确保他们在 Etsy 上花费的时间、管理库存、提供客户支持尽可能有价值？
Lenny: So essentially in product messaging and recommendations that you're showing to the sellers is the way you communicate to them?
Lenny：那么本质上，您向卖家展示的产品信息和推荐就是您与他们沟通的方式？
Tim Holley: Yeah.
蒂姆·霍利：是的。
And to some degree, we use the buyer experience to kind of signal what matters, right?
在某种程度上，我们利用买家体验来表明什么是重要的，对吗？
When we're clearly highlighting photos, then that's obviously a very overly simple example.
当我们明确突出显示照片时，这显然是一个非常简单的例子。
Lenny: Sellers here's what the search experience is highlighting.
Lenny：卖家这里强调的是搜索体验。
Tim Holley: As an example, yeah.
蒂姆·霍利：举个例子，是的。
And then really thinking about some of the signals or the snippets of information that we highlight.
然后认真思考我们强调的一些信号或信息片段。
What goes into that?
其中有什么内容呢？
We know that great customer service a seller, they'll be responding to...
我们知道，如果卖家提供出色的客户服务，他们会做出回应......
We call them convos, but messages on our platform.
我们称它们为“convo”，而是我们平台上的消息。
They'll be responding really quickly.
他们会很快做出回应。
And that's something that we then highlight in the experience, and that if you're meeting that criteria, then we can start to signal to a buyer that, yes, this person offers really excellent customer service, and we can set your expectations accordingly.
这就是我们在体验中强调的内容，如果您满足该标准，那么我们可以开始向买家发出信号，是的，这个人提供了非常出色的客户服务，我们可以相应地设定您的期望。
Lenny: Awesome.
莱尼：太棒了。
Yeah, we saw the same thing at Airbnb.
是的，我们在 Airbnb 也看到了同样的情况。
One of the things that I worked on, that was one of the bigger shifts in the marketplace was shifting Airbnb to an instant buying experience.
我所做的事情之一，也是市场上最大的转变之一，就是将 Airbnb 转变为即时购买体验。
And many hosts didn't want that, because they really wanted to vet the guest and make sure they are happy with them.
许多房东不希望这样，因为他们真的想审查房客并确保他们对房客感到满意。
But it ended up being so important to conversion that we just encouraged them to turn it on.
但它最终对转化如此重要，以至于我们只是鼓励他们打开它。
Lenny: And one of the ways that worked best is exactly what you shared, where in the search experience, when someone came and searched, we just defaulted the search results to only show you instantly bookable listings.
莱尼：最有效的方法之一正是您所分享的，在搜索体验中，当有人来搜索时，我们只是默认搜索结果仅向您显示可立即预订的列表。
And hosts started to realize, "Oh shit, this is where things are going.
主持人开始意识到，“哦，糟糕，事情就是这样发展的。
I think I got to really take this seriously." And that worked really well.
我想我必须认真对待这件事。”这非常有效。
Lenny: Pulling that thread a little bit more, I'm curious what you've seen as some of the bigger conversion wins on the buyer's side in terms of experiments you've run that have had some of the bigger impact.
莱尼：稍微拉动一下这个话题，我很好奇你所看到的一些更大的转化胜利，在你进行的实验方面，买家方面取得了一些更大的影响。
Tim Holley: I won't say we're consistently, because that suggests that we don't know what we're doing we do.
蒂姆·霍利：我不会说我们始终如一，因为这表明我们不知道自己在做什么。
We're often surprised by what works in an outsized way and what we think is going to be a knock it out of the park success, ends up being of minimal value.
我们经常惊讶于那些以巨大的方式发挥作用的东西，以及那些我们认为会取得巨大成功的东西，最终却没有什么价值。
But coming back to maybe some of the themes alluded to earlier, reviews have long been really important.
但回到之前提到的一些主题，评论长期以来一直非常重要。
Tim Holley: And when you're reviewing an item like I said, that's unique, that's from an independent seller, the type of information that another buyer is looking for is maybe a little different than other marketplaces, or even platforms that they might be shopping on.
蒂姆·霍利：当你像我说的那样评论一件商品时，这是独一无二的，来自独立卖家，另一个买家正在寻找的信息类型可能与其他市场甚至他们可能购物的平台略有不同。
Tim Holley: And so really trying to lean into, well, what does it look like in a buyer's hand, in a buyer's home?
蒂姆·霍利（Tim Holley）：所以我真的很想了解买家手中、买家家里的情况是什么样的？
Maybe that gives the next purchaser a bit more confidence that it's the right size, it's the right color, whatever it might be.
也许这会让下一个购买者更有信心，相信它的尺寸合适、颜色合适，无论它是什么。
And so that's long been a track that has been very fruitful for us, and continues to be something that we iterate on, that we focus on.
因此，长期以来，这一直是我们卓有成效的轨道，并且将继续成为我们迭代、关注的内容。
Lenny: Just I understand, that essentially it's recommending to sellers, "Here's the photos you should have on your list."
莱尼：据我了解，本质上它是向卖家推荐，“这是你应该在清单上添加的照片。”
Tim Holley: Rather, collecting from buyers.
蒂姆·霍利：相反，是从买家那里收集。
So a seller will give us the photos that they're going to take, and then we can augment those with the, we call them buyer review photos.
因此，卖家会给我们他们要拍摄的照片，然后我们可以用我们称之为买家评论照片的照片来增强这些照片。
But ultimately, the experience the purchaser is having either through photo or video is super, super valuable.
但最终，购买者通过照片或视频获得的体验是非常非常有价值的。
Lenny: Great.
莱尼：太好了。
Okay, cool.
好吧，酷。
So adding specific photos that you find help buyers convert.
因此，添加您找到的特定照片可以帮助买家进行转化。
Keep going.
继续前进。
Tim Holley: And then the other side is really leaning into maybe more the behavioral economic tactics of just helping buyers make decisions.
蒂姆·霍利：然后另一方实际上更倾向于帮助买家做出决策的行为经济策略。
Signals and nudges is how you'll see it referred to in literature.
信号和推动是您在文献中看到的提及方式。
And we've seen great success in elevating little snippets of information that really help a buyer understand, "There is actually only one of these.
我们已经看到在提升真正帮助买家理解的小信息片段方面取得了巨大成功，“实际上只有其中之一。
Well, that's good information to know." It's something that then fits into their decision-making process that might've otherwise been buried.
嗯，这是值得了解的好信息。”然后，这些东西就会融入到他们的决策过程中，否则这些东西可能会被埋没。
Tim Holley: And so really leaning into the quick summaries, the easy glanceable information that enables a buyer to gain enough confidence to say, "Yep, out of these 100 million items or the results for this search query, this is the one that I feel best about buying." We've seen lots of success on that track as well.
蒂姆·霍利：因此，真正倾向于快速摘要，易于浏览的信息，使买家能够获得足够的信心说：“是的，在这 1 亿件商品或此搜索查询的结果中，这是我最想购买的商品。”我们在这条赛道上也取得了很多成功。
Lenny: That was a track at Airbnb as well.
Lenny：这也是 Airbnb 的一首歌曲。
One of the ways they did this is they called it a rare gem, which is something that's available right now, that's very popular, and they created this kind of iconography for it.
他们这样做的方法之一是他们称其为稀有宝石，这是现在可用的、非常受欢迎的东西，他们为它创造了这种图像。
And engineers on the team ended up for Halloween dressing up as a rare gem.
团队中的工程师最终在万圣节打扮成稀有宝石。
It became a whole thing at the company.
这成为了公司的一个整体。
And what's funny about Airbnb is every home is a one of a kind.
Airbnb 的有趣之处在于，每间房屋都是独一无二的。
There's only one left always, and there's always jokes about, "We should always be one left, you better book now."
总是只剩下一间，而且总是有人开玩笑说，“我们应该永远剩下一间，你最好现在就预订。”
Tim Holley: I believe it was introduced...
蒂姆·霍利：我相信它是被引入的......
I don't believe.
我不相信。
I know it was introduced as issue or a bug.
我知道它是作为问题或错误引入的。
But we ended up showing four stars and the fifth star when it was a half star, got rendered as a horse emoji.
但我们最终显示了四颗星，第五颗星是半星，被渲染为马表情符号。
And so for a second there on Etsy, we had four stars and a horse showing up for some of our review ratings.
因此，在 Etsy 上，我们的一些评论评级中出现了四颗星和一匹马。
And that spawned a huge amount of internal fun.
这产生了巨大的内心乐趣。
And then back to your point around Halloween, we had a few teams being four stars and a horse.
然后回到万圣节前后的观点，我们有几支队伍是四星和一匹马。
It was pretty interesting.
这很有趣。
Lenny: Was it like five people were four people were a star and there's a horse person?
莱尼：是不是五个人就是四个明星，还有一个马？
Lenny: Today's episode is brought to you by OneSchema, the embeddable CSV importer for SaaS.
Lenny：今天的节目是由 OneSchema 为您带来的，OneSchema 是 SaaS 的嵌入式 CSV 导入器。
Customers always seem to want to give you their data in the messiest possible CSV file, and building a spreadsheet importer becomes a never ending sync for your engineering and support resources.
客户似乎总是希望在最混乱的 CSV 文件中向您提供他们的数据，而构建电子表格导入器将成为您的工程和支持资源的永无休止的同步。
You keep adding features to your spreadsheet importer, the customers keep running into issues.
您不断向电子表格导入器添加功能，客户不断遇到问题。
Six months later, you're fixing yet another date conversion edge case bug.
六个月后，您正在修复另一个日期转换边缘情况错误。
Lenny: Most tools aren't built for handling messy data, but OneSchema is.
Lenny：大多数工具并不是为处理杂乱数据而构建的，但 OneSchema 是。
Companies like Scale AI and Pave are using OneSchema to make it fast and easy to launch delightful spreadsheet import experiences from embeddable CSV import to importing CSVs from an SFTP folder on a recurring basis.
Scale AI 和 Pave 等公司正在使用 OneSchema 快速轻松地推出令人愉悦的电子表格导入体验，从嵌入式 CSV 导入到定期从 SFTP 文件夹导入 CSV。
Lenny: Spreadsheet import is such an awful experience in so many products.
Lenny：在很多产品中，电子表格导入都是一种糟糕的体验。
Customers get frustrated by useless messages like error on line 53, and never end up getting started with your product.
客户会对第 53 行错误等无用消息感到沮丧，并且永远不会开始使用您的产品。
OneSchema intelligently corrects messy data so that your customers don't have to spend hours in Excel just to get started with your product.
OneSchema 可以智能地纠正杂乱的数据，这样您的客户就不必在 Excel 上花费数小时来开始使用您的产品。
For listeners of this podcast, OneSchema is offering a $1,000 discount.
OneSchema 为该播客的听众提供 1,000 美元的折扣。
Learn more at oneschema.co/lenny.
如需了解更多信息，请访问 oneschema.co/lenny。
Lenny: So going down this track a little bit more, one of the biggest wins for Airbnb's search experience was this very small idea of just, what if you open each listing in the search results in a new tab, and ended up converting 1%, like increasing conversion by 1%?
Lenny：那么，再往下看一点，Airbnb 搜索体验的最大胜利之一就是这个非常小的想法，如果你在新选项卡中打开搜索结果中的每个列表，最终转化率提高了 1%，比如转化率提高了 1%，会怎么样？
Is there anything like that that you remember that you've done of just like, "Holy moly, that was so simple, but such a big win"?
您是否还记得自己曾经做过类似的事情，“天啊，这太简单了，但却是一次巨大的胜利”？
Tim Holley: Yeah, we have similar learnings around that exact example.
蒂姆·霍利：是的，我们围绕这个确切的例子有类似的经验。
Oftentimes I think about effort and reward.
我经常思考努力和回报。
So it might be a smallish GMS win or conversion rate win, but it was a one line text change.
因此，这可能是 GMS 的一个小胜利或转化率的胜利，但它只是一行文本的更改。
And we've seen those where we add a small snippet of, maybe we feel like it's almost marketing copy, and it ends up having an outsized impact.
我们已经看到，我们添加了一小段内容，也许我们觉得这几乎是营销文案，但最终却产生了巨大的影响。
Tim Holley: We had one example where we added some text to the cart experience, and we just saw huge uplift that we really, really didn't expect.
蒂姆·霍利：我们有一个例子，我们在购物车体验中添加了一些文本，我们刚刚看到了我们真的、真的没有想到的巨大提升。
It was more us communicating our values as a business, and it was something that really seemed to resonate with our buyers.
我们更多的是在传达我们作为企业的价值观，这似乎确实能引起我们的买家的共鸣。
And so that drove conversion.
这推动了转化。
We've got examples where it's a one line copy change, and it's quite shocking the impact that that can have.
我们有一些例子，其中只是一行副本的更改，它所产生的影响是相当令人震惊的。
Lenny: I'm curious what that change actually was, the text change that had that much impact, if you can recall.
莱尼：我很好奇这个改变到底是什么，有那么大影响的文本改变，如果你还记得的话。
Tim Holley: We've long and continued to invest in sustainability, and the text change was in our cart where we call out Etsy offsets carbon emissions from every delivery.
Tim Holley：我们长期以来一直在持续投资于可持续发展，我们的购物车中的文本已更改，我们呼吁 Etsy 抵消每次交付的碳排放。
And just adding that simple line of text was something that, like I said, really resonated with our buyers and the type of customer that comes to Etsy, and really drove conversion.
正如我所说，仅仅添加这一行简单的文字就能够真正引起我们的买家和 Etsy 客户类型的共鸣，并真正推动转化。
Lenny: I had Ronny Kohavi on the podcast who's one of the lead experts on experimentation, and he had the stat that 80% of experiments fail at each company on average.
Lenny：我在播客中邀请了 Ronny Kohavi，他是实验方面的首席专家之一，他的统计数据显示，平均每家公司 80% 的实验都会失败。
Does that sound about right in terms of how you guys find experiments working out?
就你们如何发现实验的效果而言，这听起来正确吗？
Lenny: Awesome.
莱尼：太棒了。
Okay.
好的。
What is your just general philosophy and experimentation?
您的总体理念和实验是什么？
Does everything run as an experiment?
一切都作为实验进行吗？
Do things sometimes not run an experiment?
有时事情不进行实验吗？
How do you think about that at Etsy?
Etsy 对此有何看法？
Tim Holley: Right now, the vast majority of our changes do.
蒂姆·霍利：目前，我们的绝大多数改变都是如此。
And to be perfectly candid, I think that's one of our growth edges as a product org, and maybe even as a company, is bringing in different ways to validate changes.
坦白地说，我认为这是我们作为一个产品组织，甚至作为一家公司的增长优势之一，正在引入不同的方式来验证变更。
Because to some degree, or maybe the way I think about experimentation, that's the highest bar.
因为在某种程度上，或者也许是我对实验的看法，这是最高的标准。
That proves with near absolute certainty that there's a causal relationship between the change you made and the KPI that you want to move.
这几乎绝对肯定地证明您所做的更改与您想要移动的 KPI 之间存在因果关系。
[NEW_PARAGRAPH]But I think that it maybe misses the point in some changes or some areas where you are working towards a bigger net new thing or this specific change won't really be indicative of the greater whole you're building towards.
[NEW_PARAGRAPH]但我认为它可能错过了某些变化或某些领域的要点，在这些变化或某些领域中，您正在努力实现更大的净新事物，或者这种特定的变化并不能真正表明您正在构建的更大整体。
Tim Holley: So like I said, I mentioned earlier, we've long been a very A/B testing driven organization, not least because Etsy's background and history has deep, deep roots in an incredible engineering culture.
Tim Holley：正如我之前提到的，我们长期以来一直是一个 A/B 测试驱动的组织，尤其是因为 Etsy 的背景和历史深深植根于令人难以置信的工程文化中。
And so that's really tried and true.
所以这确实是经过验证的。
So the vast majority of things are tested in that way.
所以绝大多数事情都是以这种方式进行测试的。
Tim Holley: We're expanding how we think about looking at cohorts over time.
Tim Holley：随着时间的推移，我们正在扩展我们对同类群体的看法。
I mentioned retention earlier, that to some degree, it necessitates a different type of test.
我之前提到过保留，在某种程度上，它需要不同类型的测试。
When we look at our SEO work, you can't think about it in exactly the same ways.
当我们审视我们的 SEO 工作时，你不能以完全相同的方式思考它。
Tim Holley: But the through line is, is the change that we're making adding value?
蒂姆·霍利：但最重要的是，我们所做的改变是否增加了价值？
And that's what we want to try to understand.
这就是我们想要尝试理解的。
A/B testing is a great way to do that.
A/B 测试是一个很好的方法。
There are others, some of which we're starting to employ, others that we we'll continue to investigate and think about how we can leverage.
还有其他一些，其中一些我们已经开始使用，另一些我们将继续调查并思考如何利用。
Lenny: Is there an example of anything?
莱尼：有什么例子吗？
And if there's not, that's totally cool, of something that you shipped that was maybe negative on an experiment results, or you just didn't want to write as an experiment.
如果没有，那就太酷了，因为您发送的某些东西可能对实验结果产生负面影响，或者您只是不想将其作为实验来编写。
Tim Holley: When we're collecting inputs from sellers, we just simply don't feel it's appropriate to not either show or honor.
蒂姆·霍利：当我们收集卖家的意见时，我们只是觉得不展示或不尊重是不合适的。
We talk about a tried and true practice of sales and discounting.
我们谈论的是经过验证的销售和折扣实践。
If a seller offers something on sale, then we need to show that.
如果卖家提供特价商品，那么我们需要表明这一点。
We are really curious about how that actually drives buyer behavior.
我们真的很好奇这实际上是如何驱动买家行为的。
And there's ways that we can kind of construct pre-post analysis and things like that to try to understand the impact.
我们可以通过一些方法构建事前分析和类似的事情来尝试了解其影响。
But ultimately, those are the kind of areas where we err on the side looking at our data in different ways.
但归根结底，这些都是我们以不同方式看待数据时会犯错误的领域。
And so we have maybe a slightly different degree of confidence in the value, but we're still confident that it does help the marketplace as a whole.
因此，我们对价值的信心程度可能略有不同，但我们仍然相信它确实有助于整个市场。
Lenny: That's a great example.
莱尼：这是一个很好的例子。
Yeah, I'm not sure what I do there.
是的，我不确定我在那里做什么。
That is tricky.
这很棘手。
So we've been talking about conversion.
所以我们一直在谈论转换。
I'm curious in terms of acquisition, what you've seen work.
我对收购方面很好奇，你所看到的效果如何。
And just generally, how do people find Etsy?
一般来说，人们如何找到 Etsy？
How do you drive top of funnel for Etsy?
如何推动 Etsy 进入漏斗顶部？
Tim Holley: Yes.
蒂姆·霍利：是的。
There's two sides to Etsy, right?
Etsy 有两个方面，对吧？
There's the seller and the buyer.
有卖方和买方。
Getting in the Wayback Machine, on the seller side, we would be at craft fairs like Renegade and other places where our sellers were selling in person and really letting them know that Etsy exists.
进入 Wayback Machine，在卖家方面，我们会参加像 Renegade 这样的工艺品展览会以及其他我们的卖家亲自销售的地方，并真正让他们知道 Etsy 的存在。
And so that was very boots on the ground, let's get out and try to acquire sellers into the marketplace.
因此，这非常困难，让我们出去尝试吸引卖家进入市场。
Some of that predates me to some degree.
其中一些在某种程度上早于我。
We were probably doing it on the tail end when I joined.
当我加入时，我们可能正在尾部做这件事。
Tim Holley: And then we have a lot of great word of mouth through our sellers.
蒂姆·霍利：然后我们通过卖家获得了很多良好的口碑。
A seller probably knows other people who are similarly inclined to be incredible craftspeople, who want to sell their items.
卖家可能认识其他同样倾向于成为令人难以置信的工匠的人，他们想要出售他们的物品。
And so we've seen some success with our...
所以我们已经看到我们的......取得了一些成功。
We have a Teams platform where sellers can come together, ask each other questions, and the word of mouth type of growth through that.
我们有一个 Teams 平台，卖家可以聚集在一起，互相提问，并通过该平台进行口碑式的增长。
Tim Holley: On the buyer side, we really leveraged the fact that we have a ton of inventory.
蒂姆·霍利：在买方方面，我们确实利用了我们拥有大量库存的事实。
And to some degree, it ends up being quite a long tail of inventory where we can meet really niche and specific needs.
在某种程度上，它最终会成为一个相当长的库存尾部，我们可以在其中满足真正的利基和特定需求。
And so that lends itself really well to thinking about SEO, lends itself really well to thinking about Google Shopping, where someone is not on Etsy, but is often looking for something either somewhat or very specific.
因此，这非常适合思考 SEO，也非常适合思考 Google Shopping，其中有人不在 Etsy 上，但经常在寻找一些有些或非常具体的东西。
And we can really meet their needs in a really meaningful way by showing them not only just a single item, but maybe that and then other options that they might find that are of a similar vein, in a similar, sub categories in some cases.
我们可以真正以一种真正有意义的方式满足他们的需求，不仅向他们展示单个项目，而且可能向他们展示这个项目，然后他们可能会发现具有类似脉络的其他选项，在某些情况下属于类似的子类别。
And so those have been long tried and true areas that we've invested in, and we've seen really great success in driving new buyers to Etsy.
因此，我们在这些领域进行了长期尝试和投资，并且在吸引新买家到 Etsy 方面取得了巨大成功。
Lenny: I've researched and written about that story of how Etsy started with sellers and craft fairs.
Lenny：我研究并撰写了有关 Etsy 如何从卖家和工艺品博览会起步的故事。
And so that's a really classic story.
这是一个非常经典的故事。
And I think there's also an element of the early sellers drove the early buyers, because they're just advertising their listing page, "Here's where you could go buying," which is a really unfair rare, opportunity to grow the marketplace by just focusing on sellers.
我认为还有一个因素是早期卖家推动了早期买家，因为他们只是在他们的列表页面上做广告，“你可以在这里购买”，这是一个非常不公平的罕见机会，通过只关注卖家来发展市场。
Tim Holley: I mean, yes, and a seller is a buyer.
蒂姆·霍利：我的意思是，是的，卖家就是买家。
And so if they're making something that they've poured their heart into, chances are they will value that exact same behavior in someone else.
因此，如果他们正在制作自己倾注心血的东西，他们很可能会重视其他人的完全相同的行为。
And so if they're selling an item, they're looking for other things in maybe not their exact category, but in adjacent categories, and they become buyers.
因此，如果他们正在销售一件商品，他们可能会在可能不是其确切类别的商品中寻找其他商品，而是在相邻类别中寻找其他商品，然后他们就成为买家。
So it is a nice dynamic when that starts to work.
所以当它开始发挥作用时，这是一个很好的动态。
Lenny: Yeah.
莱尼：是的。
So many natural advantages to getting this marketplace off the ground.
启动这个市场有很多天然的优势。
How cool is that?
那有多酷？
You mentioned word of mouth as a big part of how Etsy started spreading.
您提到口碑是 Etsy 开始传播的重要组成部分。
I imagine even today there's a lot of just, "Hey, you should check out Etsy." Is there anything you've done that accelerates word of mouth or build on word of mouth, referrals comes to mind?
我想即使在今天，也会有很多人这样说：“嘿，你应该看看 Etsy。”您是否做过任何事情可以加速口碑传播或建立在口碑传播、推荐的基础上？
Is there anything along those lines?
有什么类似的事情吗？
Tim Holley: Yeah, we dabbled with referral programs a while ago, probably eight some years ago.
蒂姆·霍利：是的，我们不久前涉足推荐计划，大概是八年前。
What we saw, it was a different time.
我们所看到的，那是一个不同的时代。
And so I think we maybe didn't value a new buyer, for example, in the way we do today.
因此，我认为我们可能没有像今天那样重视新买家。
Because to some degree, you're unlocking future value.
因为在某种程度上，你正在释放未来的价值。
They make a single purchase, and then the bet is over time they'll go on to make subsequent purchases.
他们进行一次购买，然后打赌随着时间的推移他们将继续进行后续购买。
We didn't necessarily have that as deep an understanding then as we do now.
那时我们的理解不一定像现在这么深刻。
So our buyer referral program ultimately wasn't a huge success.
所以我们的买家推荐计划最终并没有取得巨大成功。
Tim Holley: But on the seller side, this was back in the days of Dropbox referral program being a huge, huge driver of their growth, and the whole get concept that was really prevalent back then.
Tim Holley：但在卖方方面，这要追溯到 Dropbox 推荐计划成为其增长的巨大推动力的时代，而且整个获取概念在当时非常流行。
And on the seller side, one of the things that we really leaned into was, on Etsy, for those who aren't familiar, it costs 20 cents to list an item.
在卖家方面，我们真正关注的事情之一是，在 Etsy 上，对于那些不熟悉的人来说，列出一件商品的费用为 20 美分。
Tim Holley: And that may seem like a very small financial outlay to get started, but it's a little bit of a barrier.
蒂姆·霍利：这似乎是一个非常小的启动财务支出，但它是一个有点障碍。
And the more we can do to remove those, the higher chance that someone will either become a seller or list more items.
我们越能删除这些内容，某人成为卖家或列出更多商品的机会就越大。
Tim Holley: So we really leaned into that as the currency for the seller referral program.
蒂姆·霍利：所以我们确实倾向于将其作为卖家推荐计划的货币。
And coming back to what I said around Teams, that was a really great way to supercharge some of that activity that was either happening, but more of it could happen, or really helping a seller understand, "Oh yeah, there is a hook here.
回到我在 Teams 中所说的，这是一种非常好的方式，可以增强一些正在发生的活动，但更多的活动可能会发生，或者真正帮助卖家理解，“哦，是的，这里有一个钩子。
If I offer this person, I refer them, they'll get some listing credits.
如果我推荐这个人，我推荐他们，他们会获得一些上市积分。
It'll be easier for them to open their shop.
他们开店会更容易。
And then when I need to list more items, I also have credits that I can apply." So that was one small area.
然后，当我需要列出更多项目时，我也可以申请积分。”所以那是一小块区域。
I wouldn't say it was a huge driver of growth.
我不会说这是增长的巨大推动力。
But in certain markets, in certain pockets, we saw it work pretty well.
但在某些市场、某些领域，我们看到它运作得很好。
Lenny: Awesome.
莱尼：太棒了。
That also helps with fraud, which is a huge problem with referral programs where the credit is just, you can list on Etsy.
这也有助于防止欺诈，这是推荐计划的一个大问题，因为信用是公正的，你可以在 Etsy 上列出。
It's not like you can steal a lot of money away from the business.
这并不是说你可以从企业中偷走很多钱。
So that's clever.
所以这很聪明。
Lenny: Okay.
莱尼：好的。
I want to talk about one other part of the funnel, retention.
我想谈谈漏斗的另一部分，保留。
Is there anything you've learned that has been really effective to help with the retention?
您学到的任何东西是否对帮助保留真正有效？
Tim Holley: We have long had features that are retentive in their nature.
Tim Holley：我们长期以来一直拥有本质上具有保留性的功能。
Things like, on Etsy, we call them favorites.
比如，在 Etsy 上，我们称它们为最爱。
That might be liking or a similar action on other places.
这可能是在其他地方点赞或类似的行为。
But how do we think about the habit loop of if you take an action, what's the trigger and then what's the reward?
但是我们如何思考习惯循环：如果你采取行动，触发因素是什么，然后奖励是什么？
[NEW_PARAGRAPH]And so using a favorite as an example, you favorite an item.
[NEW_PARAGRAPH]因此，以收藏夹为例，您可以收藏一个项目。
That's a pretty strong ish...
这是一个相当强的ish...
Of course, adding it to your cart or maybe purchasing it, that's the strongest of signals, but you've shown intent.
当然，将其添加到您的购物车或可能购买它，这是最强烈的信号，但您已经表现出了意图。
Tim Holley: So what can we do with that information?
蒂姆·霍利：那么我们可以用这些信息做什么呢？
We can then say, "The seller put it on sale.
然后我们可以说：“卖家将其出售。
You should come back and check it out.
你应该回来看看。
This is selling out.
这是卖完了。
There's only one of this item left.
这件物品只剩下一件了。
You showed some intent, you might want to come back and get it." And that's just one example of trying to close those loops.
你表现出了一些意图，你可能想回来拿它。”这只是试图关闭这些循环的一个例子。
Tim Holley: And that's where we've worked on things like, we call it the updates feed, essentially a feed of activity that you've taken, that we're demonstrating how it's changed, what's new, and then pulling in the tried and true tactic of push notifications to make you aware of that, such that you're using your phone all the time.
蒂姆·霍利：这就是我们所做的工作，我们称之为更新源，本质上是您所进行的活动的源，我们正在演示它是如何变化的，有什么新内容，然后采用经过验证的推送通知策略来让您意识到这一点，这样您就可以一直使用手机。
You see that show up.
你看到了。
That's a pretty great notification to get right.
这是一个非常好的通知。
"The thing that I really liked is now on sale.
“我真正喜欢的东西现在正在打折。
I want to check that out."
我想检查一下。”
Tim Holley: And so those are examples where really leaning into that habit loop framework has helped us understand, we've got a lot of this activity.
蒂姆·霍利：这些都是真正倾向于习惯循环框架的例子，帮助我们理解，我们有很多这样的活动。
How do we close the loop?
我们如何关闭循环？
How do we make it really valuable for our buyers?
我们如何让它对我们的买家真正有价值？
Lenny: Zooming out a little bit, it's kind of wild that Etsy can exist in a world of eBay and Amazon.
Lenny：稍微缩小一点，Etsy 能够存在于 eBay 和亚马逊的世界里，这有点疯狂。
And I'm just curious what it is that you think the founders and the team did early on to carve out this space of, I know you could buy things from people, you can buy things on Amazon really quickly, to create a world where Etsy builds this massive business that continues to thrive.
我只是很好奇，你认为创始人和团队早期做了什么来开辟这个空间，我知道你可以从人们那里购买东西，你可以很快地在亚马逊上购买东西，以创建一个世界，让 Etsy 建立一个持续蓬勃发展的庞大业务。
What do you think was done so well to carve out the space?
您认为在开辟空间方面做得很好吗？
Tim Holley: I think that to some degree, resolves down to...
蒂姆·霍利：我认为在某种程度上，可以归结为……
And maybe that's a little too extreme, but a key component is the brand.
也许这有点太极端了，但一个关键组成部分是品牌。
The brand stands for something in people's minds.
品牌在人们心目中代表着某种东西。
And that helps understand you're not going to get the same inventory on Etsy.
这有助于理解您不会在 Etsy 上获得相同的库存。
You shouldn't expect the same inventory on Etsy as you might be looking for on eBay.
您不应期望 Etsy 上的库存与您在 eBay 上寻找的库存相同。
It doesn't make sense to our buyers.
这对我们的买家来说没有意义。
The items that our sellers sell are unique.
我们的卖家销售的商品是独一无二的。
Tim Holley: And so I think that as the core nugget, combined with how we think about policies, and our way to some degree, maintain the integrity of the marketplace, those two things combined do set us apart.
蒂姆·霍利：所以我认为，作为核心要素，再加上我们对政策的看法以及我们在某种程度上维护市场完整性的方式，这两件事的结合确实使我们与众不同。
And I think if you ask many people, certainly here in the US, what they think of Etsy, a very specific image will be conjured up.
我认为，如果你问很多人，尤其是美国的人，他们对 Etsy 的看法，你的脑海中一定会浮现出一个非常具体的形象。
That may be one that we want to evolve and build on, but it feels quite distinct.
这可能是我们想要发展和发展的一个，但感觉非常独特。
Tim Holley: And it's not the same as eBay and it's not the same as Amazon.
蒂姆·霍利：它与 eBay 和亚马逊不同。
And I think there's real deep value in that.
我认为这确实具有深远的价值。
And I wasn't here at the very beginning, but it's certainly something that was there at the very beginning of Etsy, that is still a through line to where we are today.
我一开始并不在这里，但这肯定是 Etsy 成立之初就存在的东西，它仍然是我们今天所处的位置的一条贯穿线。
Lenny: That makes absolute sense to me.
莱尼：这对我来说绝对有意义。
On the other hand, I also don't know how that happens.
另一方面，我也不知道这是怎么发生的。
Is there anything that you think about, of how the team did that and how they built that brand?
您对团队是如何做到这一点以及如何打造该品牌有什么想法吗？
What are some of the important elements?
有哪些重要元素？
Is that a specific aesthetic?
这是一种特定的审美吗？
Is it a certain type of supply that you stuck to?
您坚持使用某种类型的供应吗？
What do you think was so important to building that brand?
您认为什么对于打造该品牌如此重要？
Tim Holley: I think it is the supply.
蒂姆·霍利：我认为是供应。
If you think about the marketplace, the vast majority of content is maybe what we might consider UGC.
如果你考虑一下市场，绝大多数内容可能都是我们认为的 UGC。
It's either the item is from the seller.
要么该商品来自卖家。
Or as was mentioning before, the buyer review is from the buyer.
或者正如之前提到的，买家评论来自买家。
And so just being really clear about what's okay to sell and what's not okay, I think does really differentiate us.
因此，我认为，只要真正清楚什么可以卖、什么不可以，就能真正使我们与众不同。
Tim Holley: I also think over the years, our brand, and our aesthetic, and how we position ourselves has evolved, will continue to evolve as it should.
蒂姆·霍利：我还认为，多年来，我们的品牌、我们的审美以及我们对自己的定位已经发生了变化，并将继续按照应有的方式发展。
But to the point where we are now, the statement we have is keep commerce human.
但就目前情况而言，我们的声明是让商业保持人性化。
And that feels really simple, super pithy, easy to remember, but has lineage when you go all the way back to where we started in terms of really valuing the unique, valuing the handmade.
这感觉非常简单、超级简洁、容易记住，但当你一路回到我们开始的地方时，就真正重视独特、重视手工制作而言，它具有血统。
And so that does permeate decision making, how we show up, the type of features we work on, the things we would prioritize.
因此，这确实渗透到决策、我们的表现方式、我们所从事的功能类型以及我们优先考虑的事情中。
Maybe never say never, but an item getting dropped off by a drone and a person never touches it, that doesn't feel very Etsy.
也许永远不要说永远，但如果一件物品被无人机扔下，而人却从未接触过它，这感觉就不太 Etsy 了。
That's not something that we might lean into.
这不是我们可能会倾向于的事情。
Lenny: It's interesting how many parallels Etsy has to Airbnb, because Airbnb is the same general idea.
Lenny：有趣的是，Etsy 与 Airbnb 有很多相似之处，因为 Airbnb 的总体理念是相同的。
People's homes, people making things.
人们的家，人们制造东西。
And then also, I think the tagline for Airbnb early on was travel like a human.
另外，我认为 Airbnb 早期的口号是“像人类一样旅行”。
So it was actually a really similar concept.
所以这实际上是一个非常相似的概念。
Lenny: Which touches on a question I wanted to talk about, which is many marketplaces as they grow, become supply constrained.
莱尼：这涉及到我想谈的一个问题，即许多市场随着发展而变得供应受限。
And then there's this pressure to add different types of supply.
然后还有增加不同类型供应的压力。
In Airbnb's case, it was, "We should add hotels, we should add property management, vacation rental companies on here.
就 Airbnb 而言，“我们应该在这里增加酒店、物业管理、度假租赁公司。
We should have everything people want to book, because we're losing business.
我们应该提供人们想要预订的一切，因为我们正在失去生意。
They could book anything here, they should be able to." But the tension is, then we become like everyone else.
他们可以在这里预订任何东西，他们应该可以。”但紧张的是，然后我们就会变得和其他人一样。
And then what is Airbnb in that case?
那么 Airbnb 是什么？
Lenny: And I think you went through that experience where there was a lot of cheap products from overseas, and it was kind of being flooded.
莱尼：我认为你经历过这样的经历，那里有很多来自海外的廉价产品，而且有点被淹没。
Is that true, I guess?
我猜这是真的吗？
And then just how do you think about that limit, and where you draw that line?
那么你如何看待这个限制，以及你在哪里划定这条线？
Tim Holley: Yeah, I think it does come back to some degree to the brand and the policy point from just before.
蒂姆·霍利：是的，我认为这确实在某种程度上回到了之前的品牌和政策点。
And we take enforcing our policies really seriously.
我们非常认真地执行我们的政策。
It's not an easy job at our scale, and that means we need to continue to invest and continue to make sure that only the best items, the most relevant items are on Etsy.
就我们的规模而言，这并不是一件容易的事，这意味着我们需要继续投资并继续确保只有最好的、最相关的商品才会出现在 Etsy 上。
That job is never done.
这项工作永远不会完成。
The team that that works super, super hard, and is always looking for new signals to understand what maybe doesn't meet our criteria.
这个团队工作非常非常努力，并且总是在寻找新信号来了解可能不符合我们标准的内容。
Tim Holley: Generally speaking, supply is something that we have in spades for the most part.
蒂姆·霍利（Tim Holley）：一般来说，供应在很大程度上是我们所拥有的。
Back to the point we talked about earlier, one of the things that we grappled with was around, how can we help sellers scale?
回到我们之前讨论的问题，我们要解决的问题之一是，我们如何帮助卖家扩大规模？
They sell great inventory, but maybe they just don't have enough of it, or they can't meet the demand, because they're making everything by hand.
他们出售大量库存，但也许他们没有足够的库存，或者他们无法满足需求，因为他们都是手工制作的。
Tim Holley: So one of the things that there was an evolution, was leaning into what today we call production assistance.
蒂姆·霍利：因此，发生了演变的事情之一就是倾向于今天我们所说的生产协助。
And the way I think about that is you still need to understand the provenance of your item.
我的想法是你仍然需要了解你的物品的出处。
If you are saying, "I have this design, I'm just going to throw it over the fence to a manufacturer that I've never met, that I don't know.
如果你说，“我有这个设计，我只是要把它扔给一个我从未见过、我不知道的制造商。
I don't understand their processes, I may not agree with them," that doesn't meet our criteria.
我不理解他们的流程，我可能不同意他们的观点，”这不符合我们的标准。
You need to understand how it's being made, who is making it, have a relationship with the person who's helping you scale your business.
您需要了解它是如何制作的、由谁制作的，并与帮助您扩展业务的人建立关系。
But that's something that we saw from people who maybe gravitate more towards being designers than being able to actually make the thing.
但我们从那些可能更倾向于成为设计师而不是能够实际制造东西的人身上看到了这一点。
They have this excellent idea, they just can't see it come to life.
他们有这个绝妙的想法，但他们就是看不到它变成现实。
[NEW_PARAGRAPH]And so they need some help.
[NEW_PARAGRAPH]因此他们需要一些帮助。
And that was something we leaned into to be able to, like I said, help sellers that maybe weren't able to make a thing and sell it on Etsy.
就像我说的，我们致力于帮助那些可能无法制造产品并在 Etsy 上销售的卖家。
Or for sellers who were reaching the limits of what they could supply, really take it to the next level, and make more items such that they could make more sales.
或者对于已经达到供应极限的卖家来说，真正将其提升到一个新的水平，并生产更多的商品，以便他们可以进行更多的销售。
Lenny: So it sounds like essentially, this is just evolving definition of what a supplies allowed on Etsy, a team that stays on top of that.
Lenny：所以听起来本质上，这只是对 Etsy 上供应允许的内容的不断变化的定义，而 Etsy 是一个掌握这一点的团队。
Imagine there was just a hard decision at one point of just, "We will limit supply, and here's the supply that we want on the platform.
想象一下，在某一时刻，我们做出了一个艰难的决定，“我们将限制供应，这是我们想要在平台上提供的供应。
Everything else we're going to take off."
其他一切我们都会起飞。”
Tim Holley: We would limit the type of items, the number of those items, that as we talked about, there's a lot of them.
蒂姆·霍利：我们会限制物品的类型和数量，正如我们所说，它们有很多。
But really having that clear definition.
但确实有明确的定义。
In some cases, it's easy.
在某些情况下，这很容易。
Some things, they violate legal definitions.
有些事情，它们违反了法律定义。
And those things, that's the easy stuff to think about.
这些事情很容易思考。
It's where it's a little more gray, that it gets a little trickier.
这就是它变得更加灰色的地方，它变得更加棘手。
Lenny: That reminds me, so my wife is actually a designer, and she produces these hilarious charts about life stuff.
莱尼：这让我想起了，所以我的妻子实际上是一名设计师，她制作了这些关于生活的搞笑图表。
And people take her designs and just sell them on every platform on Zazzle, and probably Etsy, but everywhere.
人们采用她的设计并在 Zazzle 上的每个平台上出售它们，可能还有 Etsy，但无处不在。
And she's always trying to hunt them down and get them to take them off.
她总是试图追捕他们并让他们把它们脱下来。
But it's such a pain for a small designer.
但这对于一个小设计师来说真是一件痛苦的事。
It's not an Etsy problem, it's just a general internet problem.
这不是 Etsy 问题，这只是一个普遍的互联网问题。
Tim Holley: Yeah.
蒂姆·霍利：是的。
And back to the, we have teams hard at work thinking about IP, and how to police it, how to enforce it.
回到过去，我们的团队正在努力思考知识产权，以及如何监管它、如何执行它。
Tim Holley: Not a domain I will suggest I'm an expert in, really, really tricky stuff, but we've got to be beyond that.
蒂姆·霍利：我认为这不是一个领域，我是一个非常非常棘手的领域的专家，但我们必须超越这个领域。
Lenny: Yeah.
莱尼：是的。
Another I think problem that's sort of unique to Etsy, something that I think people call the graduation problem.
另一个我认为是 Etsy 独有的问题，我认为人们称之为毕业问题。
Which is where you join Etsy, things start to grow, you become really successful.
这就是您加入 Etsy 的地方，事情开始发展，您变得真正成功。
And then you're like, "Why am I paying Etsy all these fees?
然后你会想，“为什么我要向 Etsy 支付所有这些费用？
Why don't I just make my own website and just sell it directly, and not pay any fees?" And I think you guys went through that.
我为什么不自己做一个网站，然后直接出售，而不支付任何费用呢？”我想你们都经历过这个。
And so if that's true, is there anything you've learned about just how to avoid getting people to want to leave?
如果这是真的，您是否学到了如何避免让人们想要离开的知识？
Tim Holley: I think the core thought there is, our fees are generally low and highly competitive.
Tim Holley：我认为核心思想是，我们的费用普遍较低且极具竞争力。
So from that perspective, there's a reason to stay on Etsy.
因此，从这个角度来看，我们有理由留在 Etsy。
What we've seen and what we know, our sellers are really smart business people.
据我们所见和所知，我们的卖家都是非常聪明的商人。
And so if they can distribute their products through another channel, that might be their own website, another marketplace in person.
因此，如果他们可以通过另一个渠道分销他们的产品，那可能是他们自己的网站，另一个亲自的市场。
Probably going to try to do that.
可能会尝试这样做。
They want to make more sales.
他们希望获得更多销量。
Not all, but many of them are wired to want to grow their business.
并非全部，但他们中的许多人都渴望发展自己的业务。
Tim Holley: And so really understanding the role that we play in that construct of distribution channels to make it a little reductive is really helpful to understand.
蒂姆·霍利：因此，真正了解我们在分销渠道的构建中所扮演的角色，使其稍微简化，确实有助于理解。
And to some degree, we want to be the place that not only they make sales on, but they love to sell on, because our tools are really catered to the needs that they have.
在某种程度上，我们不仅希望成为他们进行销售的地方，而且是他们喜欢销售的地方，因为我们的工具真正满足了他们的需求。
Tim Holley: So there is some degree of stickiness.
蒂姆·霍利：所以存在一定程度的粘性。
I mentioned Teams earlier.
我之前提到过团队。
There are places where sellers go to congregate, share ideas, share grievances in some cases, but ultimately support each other.
在某些地方，卖家聚集在一起，分享想法，在某些情况下分享不满，但最终还是互相支持。
And so there are reasons to stick around.
因此，我们有理由坚持下去。
I'm sure there certainly sellers who scale out of Etsy who realize, "I want to build my own website," to the example you cited.
我确信肯定有一些卖家在扩展 Etsy 后意识到，“我想建立自己的网站”，就像您引用的例子一样。
The reality is that's neither cheap nor fast.
现实是这既不便宜也不快。
It's hard work.
这很辛苦。
It's hard work to build, hard work to maintain, expensive to drive traffic to.
构建起来很辛苦，维护起来也很辛苦，吸引流量的成本也很高。
And so that may be a part of the way they want to take their business, but oftentimes, Etsy still does play a role in how they're thinking, about where they make sales, and ultimately where they're going to see growth from.
因此，这可能是他们想要开展业务的方式的一部分，但通常情况下，Etsy 仍然在他们的思维方式、销售地点以及最终从哪里看到增长方面发挥着作用。
Lenny: The cool thing that I saw online about you, is that you built a marketplace essentially within Etsy called Etsy Studio.
Lenny：我在网上看到的关于您的一件很酷的事情是，您基本上在 Etsy 内部建立了一个名为 Etsy Studio 的市场。
And I'm not sure if that's around anymore, but I'm curious what the story there was, and what you learned from that experience, and current status.
我不确定这种情况是否已经存在，但我很好奇其中的故事是什么，以及你从那次经历中学到了什么，以及目前的状况。
Tim Holley: Yeah, well researched.
蒂姆·霍利：是的，经过充分研究。
Because no, it is no longer around.
因为不，它已经不复存在了。
The white space we saw with studio was essentially saying, on the one hand you've got Pinterest fails, right?
我们在 studio 中看到的空白本质上是在说，一方面你的 Pinterest 失败了，对吧？
You've got all these great inspiring items or projects on Pinterest, and then you have people who've no idea how to make them, and they get so frustrated.
Pinterest 上有所有这些伟大的鼓舞人心的项目或项目，然后有人不知道如何制作它们，他们感到非常沮丧。
Tim Holley: And then on the other hand, you've got a marketplace like Michael's, or these other places where you might go for craft supplies.
蒂姆·霍利：另一方面，你有一个像迈克尔这样的市场，或者你可能会去的其他地方购买工艺品。
They have stuff, but they don't necessarily have inspiration.
他们有东西，但不一定有灵感。
And how can we play in that intersection of the idea and the items and the tutorials to see that idea come to life?
我们如何才能在想法、物品和教程的交叉点上发挥作用，让这个想法变成现实？
Tim Holley: So the genesis of the idea, felt from a brand perspective, super aligned.
蒂姆·霍利：所以这个想法的起源，从品牌的角度来看，是非常一致的。
We stand for creativity, we stand for makers.
我们代表创造力，我们代表创客。
And so we saw it as a big opportunity.
所以我们认为这是一个巨大的机会。
The launch happened to coincide with the pivot in 2017, to really focusing on the core marketplace or refocusing on the core marketplace, maybe I should say.
也许我应该说，这次发布恰逢 2017 年的转型，即真正专注于核心市场或重新专注于核心市场。
Tim Holley: And so it became clear that when we laid out what we're optimizing for, which is driving sales in the short term, marketing dollars being as ROI positive as possible, having teams focused on the core marketplace, it didn't check any of those boxes.
蒂姆·霍利：很明显，当我们制定要优化的目标时，即在短期内推动销售、营销资金尽可能获得积极的投资回报率、让团队专注于核心市场，我们并没有勾选任何这些框。
And so really, really tough decision and hard to manage through, but that was ultimately the right call for the business to say, "This no longer makes sense given the new constraints that we're operating in, given the new goals that we have."
因此，这是一个非常非常艰难的决定，而且很难管理，但这最终是企业的正确呼吁，“考虑到我们运营的新限制，考虑到我们的新目标，这不再有意义。”
Lenny: Makes sense.
莱尼：有道理。
Also something that happened to Airbnb a lot, trying new things that they didn't work out, had to move on.
另外，Airbnb 也经常发生一些事情，尝试一些新的东西但没有成功，所以不得不继续前进。
Lenny: Shifting a little bit to just product leadership and writing the product team, and just a few more questions, what's something that you've found to be really important to having a productive, well run, well executing product team?
Lenny：稍微转向产品领导力和编写产品团队，还有几个问题，您发现对于拥有一支高效、运行良好、执行力强的产品团队来说真正重要的是什么？
Tim Holley: Yeah.
蒂姆·霍利：是的。
One of the things that's certainly not completely novel but I think we have a pretty unique interpretation of is how we collaborate between functions.
其中一件事当然不完全新颖，但我认为我们对职能之间的协作方式有一个非常独特的解释。
You'll often hear the three legs of the stool where you've got product and engine design,, and we've evolved that to five legs of the stool.
您经常会听到产品和引擎设计的凳子的三条腿，而我们已将其演变为凳子的五条腿。
And I fully recognize that a five legged stool probably is not a very stable thing, but go with the analogy for a second-
我完全认识到五脚凳可能不是一个非常稳定的东西，但我们再打个比方——
Lenny: I think it's even more stable.
Lenny：我认为它更加稳定。
Is that the most stable stool or is it less stable with five legs?
这是最稳定的凳子还是五条腿的凳子不太稳定？
Tim Holley: You probably need a really flat surface.
蒂姆·霍利：您可能需要一个非常平坦的表面。
Tim Holley: Regardless, of course we've got product eng design and we've got our insights partners.
Tim Holley：无论如何，我们当然有产品工程设计，并且有我们的见解合作伙伴。
So research and analytics, and we've got our marketing partners really working in a tight team to build the best products possible.
因此，我们进行研究和分析，并让我们的营销合作伙伴在一个紧密的团队中真正合作，以打造尽可能最好的产品。
And so I think that we can continue to get better absolutely, at how we make decisions and how we bring the various viewpoints together.
因此，我认为我们绝对可以在如何做出决策以及如何将各种观点结合在一起方面继续变得更好。
So to some degree it's not the easiest path, but it's the best path I think, where you're really incorporating different viewpoints, different constraints, different considerations into the features and the products that we're building.
因此，在某种程度上，这不是最简单的路径，但我认为这是最好的路径，你真正将不同的观点、不同的约束、不同的考虑因素融入到我们正在构建的功能和产品中。
And treating that as the core leadership team I think is really valuable.
我认为将其视为核心领导团队非常有价值。
Tim Holley: And maybe that's partly because generally, we don't subscribe to this idea of PM as the mini CEO.
蒂姆·霍利（Tim Holley）：也许部分原因是，一般来说，我们不赞同 PM 作为迷你 CEO 的想法。
You're up there directing from on high that we're going to build that feature and we're going to do that.
你从高处指示我们将构建该功能并且我们将这样做。
And that's just not the type of culture that we have, and generally speaking from what I've seen, doesn't lead to good decisions or the best features or product being built.
这不是我们所拥有的文化类型，而且一般来说，从我所看到的情况来看，这不会带来好的决策或最好的功能或正在构建的产品。
And so collaboration is something we really value and that we try to live through how we structure our teams, how we make our decisions.
因此，协作是我们真正重视的东西，我们努力通过如何构建团队、如何做出决策来实现这一点。
Is it perfect?
完美吗？
Like I said, absolutely not.
就像我说的，绝对不是。
I think it's the way that we've found being really successful building product.
我认为这是我们真正成功构建产品的方式。
Lenny: Do you give the PM just a little more say in decision making and ask?
莱尼：你是否给予总理更多一点决策发言权并询问？
Because with five people in the leadership team, you talked about how back in the day, it was like too consensus driven maybe, and I wonder how you navigate that with five decision makers.
因为领导团队中有五个人，你谈到了过去，这可能是过于共识驱动的，我想知道你如何与五个决策者一起解决这个问题。
Tim Holley: Yeah, we're always looking to clarify, or re-clarify, or restate who ultimately is accountable.
蒂姆·霍利：是的，我们一直在寻求澄清、重新澄清或重申谁最终负责。
And in many cases it is the PM, right?
在很多情况下是总理，对吧？
You are the one who Nick, our CPO like to say you don't have to have the best ideas, but you have to choose the best ideas.
我们的首席产品官尼克喜欢说，你不必拥有最好的想法，但你必须选择最好的想法。
And so really figuring out how you're selecting what you're going to build and then living with the consequences.
因此，要真正弄清楚如何选择要构建的内容，然后承担后果。
Tim Holley: Of course ideally, successful.
蒂姆·霍利：当然，理想的情况是成功。
In many cases, back to your 80% stat that 80% of experiments don't work, owning what's next, right?
在很多情况下，回到你的 80% 统计数据，即 80% 的实验不起作用，拥有接下来的内容，对吗？
Okay, did we learn from that?
好吧，我们从中吸取教训了吗？
If we did, what are we going to do about it?
如果我们这样做了，我们该怎么办？
That definitely does fall to the PM.
这肯定是总理的责任。
It doesn't give you the permission to ignore other viewpoints or make decisions in a vacuum.
它并不允许您忽略其他观点或在真空中做出决定。
It's certainly not that.
当然不是那样的。
But ultimately, when we need to move forward, it is the PM that is on the hook for those things.
但最终，当我们需要向前推进时，这些事情就要由总理负责。
Lenny: Awesome.
莱尼：太棒了。
So essentially, the PM can make the call if there's an unclear consensus?
那么本质上，如果共识不明确，总理可以做出决定吗？
Tim Holley: And given so many places are, but we're so heavily led by the insights either qual or quant.
蒂姆·霍利：考虑到很多地方都是如此，但我们在很大程度上是由定性或定量的见解主导的。
The decision in many instances is clear.
在许多情况下，决定都是明确的。
When it's not, that's when we need the product person to step forward and say, "We're going in this direction." Don't know if it's going to work out, but we'll certainly learn and we'll move forward.
如果不是，那就是我们需要产品人员站出来说：“我们正在朝这个方向前进。”不知道是否会成功，但我们一定会学习并继续前进。
Lenny: Awesome.
莱尼：太棒了。
And then just to go on this topic a little bit more, your teams are cross-functional dedicated teams.
然后再进一步讨论这个主题，您的团队是跨职能的专门团队。
I imagine it sounds like there's these five leads for each team.
我想听起来每个团队都有这五个领先者。
Is that roughly how you organize?
你们大致就是这样组织的吗？
Tim Holley: Yeah.
蒂姆·霍利：是的。
And the fifth leg, if you will, of marketing, that might be product marketing in some cases, that might be brand marketing in others.
如果你愿意的话，第五条腿是营销，在某些情况下可能是产品营销，在其他情况下可能是品牌营销。
And so there's kind of different flavors of marketing that we pull in, based on the specific needs of the project.
因此，根据项目的具体需求，我们采用了不同风格的营销方式。
But that's generally speaking how we try to structure our teams from kind of the group level all the way down to the individual squad.
但总的来说，这就是我们试图构建我们的团队的方式，从团体层面一直到个人阵容。
We can't always have a dedicated research, and a dedicated analyst, and a dedicated product marketer to every single team.
我们不可能总是为每个团队配备专门的研究人员、专门的分析师和专门的产品营销人员。
So it's certainly not perfect, but that's where we aspire to having at least coverage on those roles.
所以它当然并不完美，但这就是我们渴望至少覆盖这些角色的地方。
Lenny: Got it.
莱尼：明白了。
So most teams have dedicated marketing person or a product marketing person.
所以大多数团队都有专门的营销人员或产品营销人员。
That's crazy.
太疯狂了。
That's really rare, but interesting.
这确实很少见，但很有趣。
Lenny: Some teams that I imagine are most in need of marketing support.
Lenny：我认为有些团队最需要营销支持。
Got it.
知道了。
Are you able to just paint a rough picture of the way the teams are laid out at Etsy?
您能否粗略地描绘出 Etsy 团队的布局方式？
I imagine there's a buyer side and a seller side.
我想有买方和卖方。
How does that look for people to make sense-
这对人们来说如何有意义？
Tim Holley: Yeah.
蒂姆·霍利：是的。
The way that we think about the structure right now, and the org design should ideally follow strategy.
我们现在考虑结构的方式以及组织设计理想情况下应该遵循战略。
And if your strategy is always evolving, then your org design is always evolving.
如果您的战略始终在发展，那么您的组织设计也始终在发展。
We call it the product stack.
我们称之为产品堆栈。
And so we've got our core customer teams, who are unsurprisingly thinking about buyers and sellers.
因此，我们拥有核心客户团队，毫不奇怪，他们会考虑买家和卖家。
And so they're the ones on the front lines with the customers.
因此，他们是站在客户第一线的人。
Tim Holley: Then we have, we call them our partner teams, and so they are working directly with the end customer.
蒂姆·霍利：然后我们称他们为我们的合作伙伴团队，因此他们直接与最终客户合作。
So think an organization like payments where they have clearly a way to capture payment from a buyer to remit funds to a seller, so they're really on the front lines with the customer.
因此，想象一下像支付这样的组织，他们显然有办法从买方那里获取付款，然后将资金汇给卖方，因此他们确实处于客户的第一线。
They also have other constraints working with the payment networks, and card providers, and things like that, so they just have a slightly different model.
他们在与支付网络、卡提供商等合作时还存在其他限制，因此他们的模型略有不同。
So core customer, partner teams, enablement teams that are really in service of helping deliver the best possible experience.
因此，核心客户、合作伙伴团队、支持团队真正致力于帮助提供最佳体验。
That might be through our recommender systems or through our design system, in order to make developing that little bit easier, a little bit faster, a little bit more standardized in some cases.
这可能是通过我们的推荐系统或通过我们的设计系统，以便在某些情况下使开发更容易、更快、更标准化。
And then the foundation of it all sits with infrastructure, and the teams that you might expect that are much more technical in nature, that really, without that, we wouldn't have a website.
然后这一切的基础在于基础设施，以及您可能期望的技术性更强的团队，实际上，没有这些，我们就不会有网站。
Lenny: When you're hiring a product manager, is there anything that you found to be really important or interesting, or maybe a unique insight into hiring teams?
Lenny：当您招聘产品经理时，您是否发现有什么真正重要或有趣的事情，或者可能是对招聘团队的独特见解？
Tim Holley: The three things that I come back to time and again, is one, the collaboration piece that we talked about earlier.
蒂姆·霍利：我一次又一次提到的三件事是，我们之前讨论过的合作作品。
Not only a willingness, but a real excitement to do that.
不仅有意愿，而且对此感到非常兴奋。
It's not everyone's bag.
这不是每个人的包。
I get that.
我明白了。
Some people just want to be in a make fast decisions and move forward place.
有些人只是想快速做出决定并继续前进。
We aim to make fast decisions, but you need to consult.
我们的目标是快速做出决定，但您需要咨询。
That's one.
这是一个。
Tim Holley: Two is being decisive.
蒂姆·霍利：二是具有决定性。
We have tons of data, but it's not always clear exactly what to do with that, or we're using a new input.
我们有大量数据，但并不总是清楚如何处理这些数据，或者我们正在使用新的输入。
Maybe back to the point mentioned earlier of looking at competitive insights, let's make a decision, let's move forward.
也许回到前面提到的查看竞争洞察的观点，让我们做出决定，让我们继续前进。
Let's ideally learn.
让我们理想地学习。
Even if we're not making progress against our goals, we're at a minimum learning.
即使我们没有在目标上取得进展，我们也至少在学习。
Tim Holley: And then the third point is just curiosity.
蒂姆·霍利：第三点只是好奇心。
Because we're a relatively small organization with...
因为我们是一个相对较小的组织，...
Everyone says, "If only we had more people," but we are quite small.
每个人都说，“要是我们有更多人就好了”，但我们规模很小。
Tim Holley: So there is a lot of change.
蒂姆·霍利：所以有很多变化。
There's a lot of new priorities that crop up, and that means there's a lot of opportunity for the right folks, right?
出现了很多新的优先事项，这意味着合适的人有很多机会，对吧？
If I want to be in this space, and only this space, and this is my specific domain, and I just want to be in it forever more, that might be a little more challenging, because you might be asked to work on something net new.
如果我想进入这个空间，而且只是这个空间，这是我的特定领域，而我只是想永远留在其中，那可能会更具挑战性，因为你可能会被要求从事一些全新的工作。
And so just having that curiosity mindset of saying, or maybe said differently growth mindset of, "Okay, there's something to learn from the thing I'm being asked to do, let me really lean into that."
因此，只要抱着好奇的心态说，或者也许用不同的成长心态说，“好吧，从我被要求做的事情中可以学到一些东西，让我真正倾向于这一点。”
Tim Holley: And to some degree, I'm not describing anything that's atypical of great product people overall.
蒂姆·霍利：在某种程度上，我并不是在描述任何对于优秀产品人员来说不典型的事情。
But I think we have either a slightly different flavor or we need it in a slightly different way here at Etsy.
但我认为我们要么口味略有不同，要么 Etsy 以稍微不同的方式需要它。
Lenny: Awesome.
莱尼：太棒了。
Last question, before we get to our very exciting lightning round.
最后一个问题，在我们进入非常激动人心的闪电回合之前。
Is there a framework or a process that you find really useful, that you find yourself coming back to, that you think listeners would potentially find really valuable?
是否有一个框架或流程是您觉得真正有用、您发现自己会回过头来、您认为听众可能会发现真正有价值的？
Tim Holley: I won't pretend to know whether listeners find it valuable.
蒂姆·霍利：我不会假装知道听众是否认为它有价值。
But the thing that I do a lot, that we do as my team, that others do to some degree is a simple exercise of weekly focus.
但我经常做的事情，我们作为我的团队所做的事情，以及其他人在某种程度上所做的事情，都是每周集中注意力的简单练习。
What are you focused on this week?
这周你关注什么？
And then reflecting on, did you get done the things you were focused on last week?
然后反思一下，你上周关注的事情完成了吗？
Seems super simple, but just the exercise of thinking about what matters, writing it down, and having a little bit of social proof or articulating it out to others creates some degree of accountability, is something that is very, very easy and simple to do.
看起来非常简单，但只要思考什么是重要的，把它写下来，并有一点社会证据或向他人阐明它就可以产生一定程度的责任感，这是非常非常容易和简单的事情。
[NEW_PARAGRAPH]And if you do it consistently, you start to see some really great patterns of, "Those types of focus areas take me longer than I think.
[NEW_PARAGRAPH]如果你坚持不懈地这样做，你就会开始看到一些非常好的模式，“这些类型的重点领域花费的时间比我想象的要长。
I should budget more time." Or, "These are the type of things that crop up.
我应该预算更多的时间。”或者，“这些都是突然出现的事情。
At this time of year, I might need to start thinking about making some space for them." So I've just found that to be really, really, really helpful in the day-to-day.
每年的这个时候，我可能需要开始考虑为他们腾出一些空间。”所以我发现这对日常工作真的非常非常有帮助。
Lenny: I love that.
莱尼：我喜欢这个。
How do you operationalize that?
你如何实施它？
Is it like a Slack channel people post these in, is it a Docs?
它就像人们发布这些内容的 Slack 频道吗？它是文档吗？
Tim Holley: Yeah.
蒂姆·霍利：是的。
In our buyer experience product channel, on Mondays, everyone's kind of sharing what they're focused on.
在我们的买家体验产品频道中，每周一，每个人都会分享他们关注的内容。
How last week panned out, was it done?
上周进展如何，完成了吗？
Is it still in progress?
还在进行中吗？
Things like that.
诸如此类的事情。
It's very, very lo-fi, but it worked pretty well.
它非常非常低保真，但效果很好。
Lenny: So it's kind of like a standup that happens once a week, and it's higher level essentially is what it sounds like?
莱尼：所以这有点像每周一次的脱口秀，它的更高层次本质上就是听起来的样子？
Tim Holley: Exactly, exactly.
蒂姆·霍利：完全正确。
Trying to think about the priorities and not tasks.
尝试考虑优先事项而不是任务。
And that is a blurry line.
这是一条模糊的界限。
I fully recognize that.
我完全认识到这一点。
But anchoring in those I think is certainly for me, personally more helpful.
但我认为锚定这些肯定对我个人更有帮助。
Lenny: And is the comedian person in these and sharing funny things in the standup-
莱尼：喜剧演员是在这些节目中分享有趣的事情的人吗？
Tim Holley: No, unfortunately, or fortunately, he's now actually a comedian.
蒂姆·霍利：不，不幸的是，或者幸运的是，他现在实际上是一名喜剧演员。
Lenny: Are you serious he became a full time comedian?
莱尼：他成为一名全职喜剧演员，你是认真的吗？
That’s amazing.
太棒了。
And with that, we've reached our very exciting lightning round.
至此，我们进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。
Are you ready?
你准备好了吗？
Lenny: What are two or three books that you've recommended most to other people?
莱尼：你向其他人推荐最多的两三本书是什么？
Tim Holley: Couple that come to mind Team of Teams by Stanley McChrystal has been, I think is just A, really fascinating read, and B, helped me think a lot about how you trust teams and how you think about disseminating decision-making to the right folks, tech language, push decisions to the edges.
蒂姆·霍利：我想到的斯坦利·麦克里斯特尔（Stanley McChrystal）的《团队的团队》（Team of Teams）一书，我认为读起来非常有趣，B，帮助我思考了很多关于如何信任团队以及如何将决策传播给正确的人、技术语言、将决策推向边缘的问题。
But thinking about it in the context that he describes there is really fascinating, and it just shows that it can work even in the most egregious world of military, which you think is top-down command and control, shows that there's a different way to approach problems.
但在他所描述的背景下思考这一点确实令人着迷，而且它表明即使在最令人震惊的军事世界中它也能发挥作用，你认为这是自上而下的指挥和控制，这表明有一种不同的方法来解决问题。
Lenny: I was actually a fan favorite at Airbnb also.
Lenny：实际上我也是 Airbnb 粉丝的最爱。
Tim Holley: Oh, cool.
蒂姆·霍利：哦，酷。
Other is back all the way to the top to what I love to do.
其他人则一路回到我喜欢做的事情的顶峰。
Surfing and being outdoors.
冲浪和户外活动。
Let My People Go Surfing by Yvon Chouinard, the Patagonia founder.
让我的人民去冲浪 由巴塔哥尼亚创始人伊冯·乔伊纳德 (Yvon Chouinard) 撰写。
Incredibly fascinating read of someone who just had a deep, deep passion, turned it into a business, struggled, iterated, came out the other side really successful.
令人难以置信的引人入胜的读物，讲述了一个人充满了深深的热情，将其变成了一项事业，奋斗，迭代，最终取得了真正的成功。
So the business side, but also just how they think about treating their employees and the culture that they've built I think is to me personally, really inspiring.
因此，业务方面，以及他们对待员工的方式以及他们所建立的文化，我认为对我个人而言，非常鼓舞人心。
There's a theme here around trust and how you engage with people to make their day-to-day work lives, is really fulfilling.
这里的主题是信任，以及如何与人们互动，让他们的日常工作生活变得非常充实。
So that's another favorite.
所以这是另一个最喜欢的。
And then in a super different direction, Power Broker by Robert Caro.
然后是一个超级不同的方向，罗伯特·卡罗的《权力经纪人》。
That is an absolute tone.
那是绝对的语气。
It is huge.
它是巨大的。
It took me probably an entire year to read because I'm an extremely slow reader and/or I fell asleep a lot.
我可能花了整整一年的时间来阅读，因为我的阅读速度非常慢并且/或者我经常睡着。
But it is so fascinating, especially living in New York, of how one human had such an incredibly outsized and probably terrible impact on the city.
但令人着迷的是，尤其是生活在纽约，一个人如何对这座城市产生如此巨大甚至可能可怕的影响。
Access to waterfronts, really thinking about communities and tearing them apart.
通往海滨，真正思考社区并将其拆散。
Just such a fascinating read.
读起来真是太有趣了。
Lenny: I have that book, and I've never read it.
莱尼：我有那本书，但我从来没有读过。
It's very long and intimidating.
它很长而且令人生畏。
I think it might be back there, maybe in a different-
我想它可能会回到那里，也许会以不同的方式——
Tim Holley: I would chunk it out.
蒂姆·霍利：我会把它分块。
Do a couple of chapters at a time, otherwise it feels insurmountable.
一次做几章，否则感觉难以克服。
Lenny: It's like infinite Infinite Jest where you're intimidated.
莱尼：这就像无限的无限笑话，你会感到害怕。
Amazing.
惊人的。
Okay, next question.
好的，下一个问题。
Favorite recent movie or TV show?
最近最喜欢的电影或电视节目？
Tim Holley (01:07:15) So my wife and I talk about this a lot.
Tim Holley (01:07:15) 所以我和我的妻子经常谈论这个问题。
I think we're Western Files, if that's a thing.
我认为我们是西部档案，如果这是一件事的话。
I'm from Europe and so it's a whole new world, different world for me.
我来自欧洲，所以这对我来说是一个全新的世界，不同的世界。
We've loved Yellowstone and all of the, I guess they're prequels.
我们很喜欢黄石公园，我想它们都是前传。
They've been just really, really fun to watch for people who are curious about that culture and that world.
对于那些对那种文化和那个世界感到好奇的人来说，观看它们真的非常非常有趣。
Lenny: Awesome.
莱尼：太棒了。
It's also been hard to find where to even watch it.
甚至很难找到在哪里观看它。
It's on the weirdest channels.
它在最奇怪的频道上。
Tim Holley: It is one of those where the old world of, we cut all our cords and we only needed Netflix.
蒂姆·霍利：这是旧世界的其中之一，我们切断了所有的电线，我们只需要 Netflix。
Suddenly you need all these really random providers of content that you're like, "I have to subscribe to that now to watch this show?"
突然间，你需要所有这些真正随机的内容提供商，你会想，“我现在必须订阅才能观看这个节目吗？”
Lenny: Don't understand where this even is.
莱尼：不明白这是哪里。
Just take my money.
拿走我的钱吧。
Favorite interview question you like to ask candidates?
您最喜欢问应聘者的面试问题？
Tim Holley (01:07:58) I'm a big fan of case studies, live case studies.
Tim Holley (01:07:58) 我非常喜欢案例研究，现场案例研究。
I think you learn a whole boatload about how someone thinks on the fly, how they react to constraints.
我认为你可以学到很多关于某人如何即时思考、如何应对限制的信息。
So we use those.
所以我们使用这些。
I've used those a ton.
我已经用过很多次了。
We use them pretty heavily in product interviews.
我们在产品访谈中大量使用它们。
So I love those modulated for the type of business you're in, what you're actually trying to understand.
因此，我喜欢那些根据您所处的业务类型以及您实际想要了解的内容进行调整的内容。
[NEW_PARAGRAPH]The other one I like to ask is around something that people have taught themselves, tried to get at a growth mindset.
[NEW_PARAGRAPH]我想问的另一个问题是人们自学的一些东西，试图获得成长心态。
I think Julia, who was on the podcast a while ago, said something similar.
我认为不久前在播客上的朱莉娅也说过类似的话。
But you get a ton of insight into someone.
但你会对某人有很多了解。
Ideally, you get a bit of passion and you often get something to go research.
理想情况下，你有一点热情，并且经常有东西可以研究。
She's like, "I don't know anything about that topic.
她说：“我对这个话题一无所知。
I want to learn a little more." Lenny (01:08:40) What is a favorite product that you've recently discovered that you love?
我想多学一点。” Lenny (01:08:40) 您最近发现自己喜欢的最喜欢的产品是什么？
Tim Holley: You as a new parent maybe resonates when...
蒂姆·霍利：作为新父母，您可能会在以下情况下产生共鸣......
So it's not new, because our kids too.
所以这并不新鲜，因为我们的孩子也是如此。
But when I was looking, being in product, of course you want to track data.
但当我在产品中寻找时，你当然想要跟踪数据。
And so I was looking for apps that would be good at doing that, and they nearly all look like hideous medical charts where I just don't want to engage with that.
所以我一直在寻找能够做到这一点的应用程序，它们几乎都看起来像可怕的医疗图表，我只是不想参与其中。
I found this one app, I think it's called Nara Baby or Nara something.
我发现了这个应用程序，我想它的名字叫“Nara Baby”或“Nara”之类的。
Super simple, allows both parents to enter information.
超级简单，允许父母双方输入信息。
Probably grandparents too.
可能还有祖父母。
We only tested it with two people.
我们只对两个人进行了测试。
Seamlessly syncs.
无缝同步。
Really easy to use.
真的很容易使用。
So at 4:00 AM when you can't see and you just want to say, "I fed the baby," you can do that really easily.
因此，在凌晨 4:00，当您看不见而只想说“我喂了婴儿”时，您可以非常轻松地做到这一点。
Just really, really simple, fit for purpose product.
只是非常非常简单，适合特定用途的产品。
So that resonated with me.
这引起了我的共鸣。
Lenny: I'm going to be downloading that right now.
莱尼：我现在就去下载。
I've been using Huckleberry, which is both awesome and not awesome, and so awesome tip.
我一直在使用 Huckleberry，它既很棒又不怎么样，而且是很棒的提示。
Great.
伟大的。
What is a favorite life motto that you like to repeat often or share with other people, either in work or in life?
无论是在工作还是生活中，您最喜欢经常重复或与其他人分享的人生格言是什么？
Tim Holley: One of the things I talk about maybe internally more than anything else, but all or nothing.
蒂姆·霍利：我在内部谈论的一件事可能比其他任何事情都重要，但要么全有要么全无。
Go all in.
全力以赴。
Go do the thing.
去做事吧。
In German [German 01:10:08].
德语 [德语 01:10:08]。
I grew up in Germany, so that's something I say to myself a lot is if you're going to do it, do it properly.
我在德国长大，所以我经常对自己说的话就是，如果你要做这件事，就得正确地做。
I think those are often helpful words to live by.
我认为这些都是对生活很有帮助的话语。
Lenny: I love that.
莱尼：我喜欢这个。
Final question, what's a favorite item you recently discovered on Etsy?
最后一个问题，您最近在 Etsy 上发现的最喜欢的商品是什么？
Tim Holley: I recently bought an engraved whiskey decanter for my wife and myself, or for the home.
蒂姆·霍利（Tim Holley）：我最近为我和我的妻子或家里买了一个雕刻威士忌醒酒器。
Super beautiful, so cool.
超级漂亮，太酷了。
Got it personalized with our names.
用我们的名字来个性化它。
Just such a cool, cool item, that I wasn't expecting to find that kind of thing.
真是太酷了，太酷了，我没想到会找到那种东西。
I'm not even sure exactly how you engrave a whiskey decanter, but it was really cool.
我什至不确定你是如何雕刻威士忌醒酒器的，但这真的很酷。
And the other thing, I'm always on the lookout for greeting cards.
另一方面，我总是在寻找贺卡。
If anyone has great greeting card seller recommendations, I'm all ears.
如果有人有好的贺卡卖家推荐，我会洗耳恭听。
I love giving out physical greetings cards to folks, so that's another always on Etsy favorite of mine.
我喜欢向人们分发实体贺卡，所以这是我在 Etsy 上最喜欢的另一张贺卡。
Lenny: Tim, we've talked about growth, culture, surfing, cabins, leadership.
莱尼：蒂姆，我们讨论了成长、文化、冲浪、小屋、领导力。
Thank you so much for being here.
非常感谢您来到这里。
I'm downloading the Nara app right now as we speak.
就在我们说话的时候，我正在下载 Nara 应用程序。
Two final questions.
最后两个问题。
Where can folks find you online if they want to reach out and maybe learn more, and how can listeners be useful to you?
如果人们想要联系并了解更多信息，可以在哪里找到您？听众如何对您有用？
Tim Holley: Yeah, yeah, find me on LinkedIn.
Tim Holley：是的，是的，在 LinkedIn 上找到我。
That's probably...
那大概是...
Well, not probably, is my most professional platform.
嗯，可能不是，是我最专业的平台。
Instagram, like I said, is a farce.
正如我所说，Instagram 是一场闹剧。
And being useful.
并且有用。
Yeah, send me things that you're excited about in the Etsy product.
是的，请将 Etsy 产品中您感兴趣的内容发送给我。
Send me feedback.
给我反馈。
We're always really keen to learn how folks are experiencing the things that we build.
我们总是非常热衷于了解人们如何体验我们构建的东西。
Lenny (01:11:26) Amazing.
莱尼 (01:11:26) 太棒了。
Tim, thank you so much for being here.
蒂姆，非常感谢你来到这里。
Tim Holley (01:11:28) Thank you for having me, Lenny.
蒂姆·霍利 (01:11:28) 谢谢你邀请我，莱尼。
Appreciate it.
欣赏它。
Lenny (01:11:30) Bye everyone.
莱尼 (01:11:30) 大家再见。
(01:11:34) Thank you so much for listening.
(01:11:34) 非常感谢您的聆听。
If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.
如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。
Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review, as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.
另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。
You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.
您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。
See you in the next episode.
下一集见。