Hard-won lessons building 0 to 1 inside Atlassian | Tanguy Crusson (Head of Jira Product Discovery)
Tanguy Crusson: Been in the product management team at Atlassian for roughly 10 years now.
Tanguy Crusson：在 Atlassian 的产品管理团队工作了大约 10 年。
I worked on HipChat and Stride, and more recently I started Jira Product Discovery.
我从事 HipChat 和 Stride 工作，最近我开始了 Jira Product Discovery。
Lenny Rachitsky: Why is it so hard to start new products, go zero to one within large companies?
Lenny Rachitsky：为什么在大公司内推出新产品、从零到一如此困难？
Tanguy Crusson: The company has a tendency to over-invest.
Tanguy Crusson：该公司有过度投资的倾向。
Startups have the benefit of starving, and so you need to create scarcity.
初创公司有挨饿的好处，所以你需要创造稀缺性。
What we try to do is remind everyone things are going to fail, let's not drag the rest of the company into it.
我们试图做的是提醒每个人事情都会失败，我们不要把公司的其他人也拖进去。
Lenny Rachitsky: Sounds like one of the biggest lessons is super silo sort of team.
Lenny Rachitsky：听起来最大的教训之一就是超级筒仓式的团队。
Tanguy Crusson: I needed the rest of the company to go away so we could get the autonomy to test the things that we needed, but it's not going to scale.
Tanguy Crusson：我需要公司的其他人离开，这样我们才能获得自主权来测试我们需要的东西，但它不会扩大规模。
That is not going to respect all design guidelines.
这不会遵守所有设计准则。
Lenny Rachitsky: The biggest challenge I think a lot of companies have is just, it's been six months, no one wants this, we're going to kill it.
Lenny Rachitsky：我认为很多公司面临的最大挑战就是，已经六个月了，没有人想要这个，我们将杀死它。
How do you protect that?
你如何保护它？
Tanguy Crusson: Be very clear about what we're testing, doing that with data, doing that with personal customer stories, give people a sense of velocity and speed.
Tanguy Crusson：非常清楚我们正在测试的内容，用数据进行测试，用个人客户故事进行测试，给人们一种速度感。
No one wants to fuck with a high-speed train.
没有人愿意玩高速列车。
Lenny Rachitsky: Today, my guest is Tanguy Crusson.
Lenny Rachitsky：今天，我的客人是 Tanguy Crusson。
This is a really unique and important episode because we get into something you don't hear much on podcasts like this, the real talk challenges of trying to innovate and build zero to one at a large company like Atlassian.
这是一个非常独特且重要的剧集，因为我们讨论了一些您在播客中很少听到的内容，即在像 Atlassian 这样的大公司尝试创新和构建从零到一的真正挑战。
Tanguy has been at Atlassian for over 10 years and has worked on a bunch of internal big bets, some that have worked and some that have not, including products like HipChat, which I was a huge fan of back in the day, also a product called Status Page, and most recently Jira Product Discovery, which is one of the fastest growing products in Atlassian history that Tanguy led from idea to launch.
Tanguy 在 Atlassian 工作了 10 多年，参与了一系列内部重大项目，有些成功了，有些则失败了，包括像 HipChat 这样的产品，我当时是它的超级粉丝，还有一个名为 Status Page 的产品，以及最近的 Jira Product Discovery，这是 Atlassian 历史上增长最快的产品之一，Tanguy 领导了从创意到发布的过程。
We go through each of these stories, and Tanguy shares what went wrong, what went right, and everything that he's learned about creating space for innovation within a larger org, including how they structured their internal incubation program called Point A.
我们逐一回顾了这些故事，Tanguy 分享了哪里出了问题，哪里做对了，以及他在大型组织内创造创新空间时所学到的一切，包括他们如何构建名为 Point A 的内部孵化计划。
Lenny Rachitsky: There's a ton of gold in this episode and a bunch of really interesting stories, which is part of the reason that it went this long.
Lenny Rachitsky：这一集中有大量的黄金和一堆非常有趣的故事，这也是它持续这么长时间的部分原因。
It's the longest episode I've done yet.
这是我迄今为止完成的最长的一集。
If you're looking to create change in your organization and foster more innovation, this episode will be worth your time.
如果您希望在组织中创造变革并促进更多创新，那么本集值得您花时间。
If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube, the best way to avoid missing feature episodes and it helps the podcast tremendously.
如果您喜欢这个播客，请不要忘记在您最喜欢的播客应用程序或 YouTube 中订阅并关注它，这是避免错过专题节目的最佳方法，并且它对播客有很大帮助。
With that, I bring you Tanguy Crusson.
接下来，我为您带来了唐吉·克鲁森 (Tanguy Crusson)。
Lenny Rachitsky: Tanguy, thank you so much for being here, and welcome to the podcast.
Lenny Rachitsky：Tanguy，非常感谢您来到这里，欢迎来到播客。
Tanguy Crusson: Thank you very much for welcoming me here, Lenny.
Tanguy Crusson：非常感谢你欢迎我来到这里，Lenny。
I'm actually super proud to be on this podcast.
事实上，我非常自豪能够参加这个播客。
I've been a huge fan.
我一直是它的超级粉丝。
Whenever I get the chance, I listen to you when I drive somewhere so yeah.
每当我有机会，当我开车去某个地方时，我都会听你的，是的。
Lenny Rachitsky: What we're going to be talking about in this episode is we're going to be talking about building new products and going zero to one within larger companies, and in particular, the pain and the challenges that come along with that, but also the lessons that you've learned from doing this many times and seeing it done many times.
Lenny Rachitsky：我们在这一集中要讨论的是如何在大公司中开发新产品以及从零到一，特别是随之而来的痛苦和挑战，以及您从多次这样做和看到多次这样做中学到的经验教训。
You've seen a lot of this happening at Atlassian, you've been there for over 10 years at this point, and Atlassian has, I don't know, over a dozen different product lines at this point, something like that.
你已经在 Atlassian 看到过很多这样的事情，你已经在那里工作了 10 多年，我不知道，Atlassian 目前有十多个不同的产品线，诸如此类。
I know a lot of people come to you asking for advice on how to build zero to one within a large company.
我知道很多人来向您寻求如何在大公司内构建“从零到一”的建议。
So let me just start with a general question of just could you just share a bit about your history of building zero to one and just seeing zero to one happening within Atlassian?
那么，让我从一个一般性问题开始，您能否分享一下您构建零到一的历史以及在 Atlassian 中看到零到一发生的情况？
Tanguy Crusson: Yeah, so like you said, I've been in the product management team at Atlassian for roughly 10 years now, and I've been working mainly on bootstrapping new things.
Tanguy Crusson：是的，就像你说的，我在 Atlassian 的产品管理团队工作了大约 10 年，我主要致力于引导新事物。
Initially, I joined to start the cloud developer ecosystem so developers can build apps on top of the Atlassian platform and sell them on the Atlassian marketplace.
最初，我加入是为了启动云开发者生态系统，以便开发者可以在 Atlassian 平台上构建应用程序并在 Atlassian 市场上销售它们。
I worked on HipChat and Stride.
我曾参与 HipChat 和 Stride 的工作。
HipChat was well-known, Stride less so.
HipChat 很出名，而 Stride 则不太出名。
We were trying to win the enterprise communications market before Slack and Microsoft Teams came about.
在 Slack 和 Microsoft Teams 出现之前，我们就试图赢得企业通信市场。
I did lead a business case to invest more in IT operations, got nowhere with it than we acquired Statuspage, Opsgenie, and something I tried to do with didn't quite get off the ground.
我确实领导了一个对 IT 运营进行更多投资的商业案例，但除了我们收购了 Statuspage、Opsgenie 之外，一事无成，而我尝试做的事情并没有完全取得进展。
More recently I started Jira Project Discovery, which was part of our internal incubator for two to three years, and came out of the incubator and generally available a year ago.
最近，我启动了 Jira Project Discovery，它是我们内部孵化器的一部分，持续了两到三年，并在一年前从孵化器中出来并普遍可用。
Tanguy Crusson: My track record at Atlassian has been 50/50 at best.
Tanguy Crusson：我在 Atlassian 的记录最多只能是 50/50。
Jira Project Discovery is actually my first, what I would call big success here.
Jira Project Discovery 实际上是我的第一个项目，我在这里称之为巨大的成功。
That one worked, but it was hard and all the ones that I worked on before were really hard to, and that's the kind of stuff that really bothered me for a super long time.
那件事确实有效，但是很难，而且我以前做过的所有事情都非常困难，而这正是真正困扰我很长时间的事情。
The good thing is working on a product for product managers, I got to talk to a lot of product managers and across all sorts of industries in the past three to four years, and I realize that 50/50 is actually not that bad.
好处是为产品经理开发产品，在过去的三到四年里，我与很多不同行业的产品经理进行了交谈，我意识到 50/50 实际上并没有那么糟糕。
Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome, and I know there's going to be a lot of real talk in this conversation.
Lenny Rachitsky：太棒了，我知道这次谈话中将会有很多真正的话题。
I'm excited to share and hear all these stories.
我很高兴分享和听到所有这些故事。
Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by Vanta.
Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 Vanta 为您带来。
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Vanta 市场领先的信任管理平台可帮助您持续监控合规性以及报告和跟踪风险。
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此外，您还可以通过 Vanta AI 完成安全调查问卷来节省时间。
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加入数千家使用 Vanta 自动化证据收集、统一风险管理和简化安全审查的全球公司行列。
Get $1,000 off Vanta when you go to vanta.com/Lenny.
访问vanta.com/Lenny，即可享受Vanta 1,000 美元优惠。
That's V-A-N-T-A.com/lenny.
那是 V-A-N-T-A.com/lenny。
Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by WorkOS.
Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 WorkOS 为您带来。
If you're building a SaaS app, at some point your customers will start asking for enterprise features like SAML authentication and SCIM provisioning.
如果您正在构建 SaaS 应用程序，那么您的客户有时会开始要求提供 SAML 身份验证和 SCIM 配置等企业功能。
That's where WorkOS comes in, making it fast and painless to add enterprise features to your app.
这就是 WorkOS 的用武之地，它可以快速、轻松地将企业功能添加到您的应用程序中。
Their APIs are easy to understand so that you can ship quickly and get back to building other features.
他们的 API 易于理解，因此您可以快速交付并继续构建其他功能。
Today, hundreds of companies are already powered by WorkOS, including ones you probably know like Vercel, Webflow, and Loom.
如今，数百家公司已经由 WorkOS 提供支持，其中包括您可能知道的 Vercel、Webflow 和 Loom 等公司。
Lenny Rachitsky: WorkOS also recently acquired Warrant, the fine-grain authorization service.
Lenny Rachitsky：WorkOS 最近还收购了细粒度授权服务 Warrant。
Warrant's product is based on a groundbreaking authorization system called Zanzibar, which was originally designed for Google to power Google Docs and YouTube.
Warrant 的产品基于名为 Zanzibar 的突破性授权系统，该系统最初是为 Google 设计的，旨在为 Google Docs 和 YouTube 提供支持。
This enables fast authorization checks at enormous scale while maintaining a flexible model that can be adapted to even the most complex use cases.
这可以实现大规模的快速授权检查，同时保持灵活的模型，甚至可以适应最复杂的用例。
If you're currently looking to build role-based access control or other enterprise features like single sign-on, SCIM, or user management, you should consider WorkOS.
如果您当前正在寻求构建基于角色的访问控制或其他企业功能（例如单点登录、SCIM 或用户管理），您应该考虑 WorkOS。
It's a drop-in replacement for Auth0 and supports up to 1 million monthly active users for free.
它是 Auth0 的直接替代品，免费支持多达 100 万月活跃用户。
Check it out at workos.com to learn more.
请访问 workos.com 以了解更多信息。
That's workos.com.
那是workos.com。
Lenny Rachitsky: Just broadly, why is it so hard in your experience to start new products go zero to one within large companies?
Lenny Rachitsky：从广义上讲，根据您的经验，为什么在大公司内从零到一开始新产品如此困难？
What have you seen are the biggest challenges and hurdles generally?
您认为最大的挑战和障碍是什么？
Tanguy Crusson: Yeah, so on the opportunity side, so Atlassian, 300,000 customers.
Tanguy Crusson：是的，在机会方面，Atlassian 拥有 300,000 名客户。
We play in a whole bunch of different markets, everything in the collaboration space.
我们涉足很多不同的市场，涉及协作领域的一切。
We have a lot of markets that we play in, which means that we've got a lot of competitors.
我们有很多市场，这意味着我们有很多竞争对手。
But basically when we look at the areas we could go in, there's an endless list of areas that we could go in, play and have a decent chance to win.
但基本上，当我们考虑我们可以进入的领域时，我们可以进入、参与并有不错的获胜机会的领域有无数个。
Much harder to do if you're a startup.
如果你是一家初创公司，那就更难了。
The breadth that we've got makes it easier to try find areas where we could expand into.
我们所拥有的广度使我们更容易找到可以扩展的领域。
We're not starving like a smaller company, so we can actually afford to try to play somewhere, to do some bets, to have some of them fail and some of them succeed, so that's amazing.
我们不像小公司那样挨饿，所以我们实际上有能力尝试在某个地方玩，做一些赌注，让其中一些失败，一些成功，所以这太棒了。
Now our customers, I said 300,000.
现在我们的客户，我说30万。
The thing that I admire the most about the Atlassian business model is it's very broad.
我最欣赏 Atlassian 商业模式的一点是它非常广泛。
It's across small and medium-sized companies.
它遍及中小型公司。
We have startups using our products, and we've got also enterprises and very large enterprises using the same products, which means that there's a lot of areas where we could find a niche and go after it and expand progressively into all these areas so there's a massive distribution potential that comes with that.
我们有初创公司使用我们的产品，也有企业和大型企业使用相同的产品，这意味着我们可以在很多领域找到利基市场并追随它，并逐步扩展到所有这些领域，因此随之而来的是巨大的分销潜力。
When I worked on Jira Product Discovery, I didn't start with, okay, I'm going to need to start finding product managers and it's going to be how to find them.
当我从事 Jira 产品发现工作时，我一开始并不是说，好吧，我需要开始寻找产品经理，而是如何找到他们。
No, they were already all using Jira.
不，他们已经都在使用 Jira 了。
Atlassian is a company that has a relatively deep organization hierarchy but relatively flat decision making.
Atlassian是一家组织层次比较深，但决策相对扁平的公司。
So it's more like a, imagine a network of key decision makers across the organization.
因此，它更像是一个由整个组织的关键决策者组成的网络。
It doesn't really matter the job title or whether you are a manager of people or not.
职位名称或您是否是人员经理并不重要。
The decisions are made by people who drive change.
这些决定是由推动变革的人做出的。
Tanguy Crusson: So there's a lot of empowerment that comes from that, but also it's a mix of top-down, bottom-up happiness I'd say.
Tanguy Crusson：因此，这会带来很多力量，但我想说，这也是自上而下、自下而上的幸福的混合体。
And so it can feel really chaotic at first, but once you know how to navigate it, it's actually pretty easy to try to go after something that you care about.
所以一开始你可能会感觉很混乱，但是一旦你知道如何驾驭它，尝试追求你关心的东西实际上是很容易的。
And of course, we're a big company, so there's lots of ways we can get help.
当然，我们是一家大公司，因此我们可以通过多种方式获得帮助。
Corporate development, research analysts that we can talk to whenever we want to explore something, thousands of customers that I just have to put something in the addressable community group and get hundreds of people applying to talk to me from one day to the next.
公司发展，我们可以在任何想要探索某事时与之交谈的研究分析师，以及成千上万的客户，我只需将一些东西放入可寻址的社区组中，并让数百人日复一日地申请与我交谈。
So that's amazing, any startup would want that.
这真是太棒了，任何初创公司都会想要这样。
Lenny Rachitsky: This sounds like how can anything not work when you launch a new product?
Lenny Rachitsky：这听起来像是当你推出新产品时怎么可能有什么事情不起作用呢？
You have 300,000 potential customers to launch it to.
您有 300,000 名潜在客户可以推出它。
You have all the resources to build it.
您拥有构建它的所有资源。
It sounds like decision making is efficient relatively, it's flat.
听起来决策是比较高效的，扁平化的。
You have all these different customer segments that use all these different version product lines of Atlassian.
您拥有所有这些不同的客户群，他们使用 Atlassian 的所有这些不同版本的产品线。
It's just like all of the opportunity possible to launch new products and still, many things do not work out, so I think this is a really important point and I think many big companies are in this.
就像所有可能推出新产品的机会一样，但很多事情仍然没有成功，所以我认为这是非常重要的一点，我认为许多大公司都在这一点上。
We have so much opportunity.
我们有很多机会。
Everything we're going to build is going to, it's going to grow like crazy because we have everything we need, but still it doesn't work out.
我们要建造的一切都会疯狂地增长，因为我们拥有我们需要的一切，但仍然没有成功。
And that's why I think we're going to talk about, it's going to be so important.
这就是为什么我认为我们要讨论的，这将是非常重要的。
Tanguy Crusson: It's going to be a little bit of therapy for me.
Tanguy Crusson：这对我来说是一种治疗。
Hopefully some people out there could go, "Okay, it's not just me having a hard time." It can happen in companies like Atlassian too.
希望那里的一些人可以说：“好吧，不仅仅是我有困难。”像 Atlassian 这样的公司也可能发生这种情况。
Tanguy Crusson: So yeah, let's talk about the challenges.
Tanguy Crusson：是的，我们来谈谈挑战。
Tanguy Crusson: Yeah, for that.
Tanguy Crusson：是的，为此。
So you want to start a new thing.
所以你想开始一件新的事情。
This thing is going to take time, and you need to be able to have that time for the time it takes until you can prove whether there is a thing or not.
这件事需要时间，你需要能够有足够的时间来证明某件事是否存在。
The thing inside Atlassian is that the path for success is super high for a new bet.
Atlassian 内部的事情是，对于新的赌注来说，成功的道路是非常高的。
If you come in and you create a product and it's got 100 customers, it's going to look cute.
如果你进来并创建了一个产品，并且它有 100 个客户，那么它会看起来很可爱。
Remember, we serve startups and enterprises, we have self-service and sales, we've got all these motions that are in place for our bigger products.
请记住，我们为初创公司和企业提供服务，我们有自助服务和销售，我们已经为我们更大的产品制定了所有这些举措。
A $100 million business is a good start basically.
1亿美元的生意基本上是一个好的开始。
In most companies out there, $100 million business is a home run.
对于大多数公司来说，1 亿美元的业务就是本垒打。
For us, it's not like that.
对我们来说，情况并非如此。
We're trying to build businesses that grow really big and keep growing big over time.
我们正在努力建立真正壮大并随着时间的推移不断壮大的企业。
Tanguy Crusson: Now, evaluating success can look very different between early stage and established products.
Tanguy Crusson：现在，评估早期产品和成熟产品之间的成功可能看起来非常不同。
For a long time at Atlassian, we were treating everything a little bit equally in that the metrics success for the same.
在 Atlassian 很长一段时间里，我们对所有事情都一视同仁，因为指标的成功都是相同的。
For example, things like monthly active users is the way that you, for a long time we looked at you go, is that product being successful on it?
例如，像每月活跃用户这样的事情，我们很长一段时间以来一直在关注，该产品在这方面是否成功？
And what if you are building an "internal startup," your monthly active user number should look very low for quite some time up until you know that your product is ready to serve the vast majority of the customers that you want to put it in front of, so that they don't just look at it and go, "It's not ready for me."
如果你正在建立一个“内部初创公司”，那么你的每月活跃用户数量应该在相当长的一段时间内看起来非常低，直到你知道你的产品已经准备好为你想要展示的绝大多数客户提供服务，这样他们就不会只是看着它然后说“它还没有为我准备好”。
Tanguy Crusson: They're going to try it and then they're going to churn and it's going to take forever to claim them back, so that makes it pretty challenging to try and start new things unless we've got the right metrics and processes and everything internally that can give room and breathing space for the bets to succeed internally.
Tanguy Crusson：他们会尝试一下，然后就会流失，而且要花很长时间才能收回它们，因此尝试开始新事物变得非常具有挑战性，除非我们拥有正确的指标和流程以及内部的一切，可以为内部成功的赌注提供空间和呼吸空间。
And for many years, we were not there.
多年来，我们都不在那里。
We started getting there more recently with the start of Point A, which was our internal incubator program, which is one of my latest that was successful.
我们最近开始实现这一目标，启动了 A 点，这是我们的内部孵化器计划，也是我最近成功的项目之一。
The ones before didn't have that, and I really struggled from that, and I see many companies struggling with that exact aspect.
以前的公司没有这个，我真的很挣扎，而且我看到很多公司都在这方面苦苦挣扎。
Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
Let's dive into an actual story.
让我们深入了解一个真实的故事。
There's three that I want to talk about.
我想谈三个。
There's HipChat, which you mentioned.
还有你提到的 HipChat。
There's Status Page and then there's the product you're working on now, Jira Product Discovery.
有状态页面，然后有您现在正在开发的产品，Jira Product Discovery。
So with HipChat, funny story, I loved HipChat.
因此，对于 HipChat，有趣的故事，我喜欢 HipChat。
I was a huge user of HipChat at my startup back in the day.
当年我在创业时就是 HipChat 的忠实用户。
I can never forget the billboard that you all put out promoting HipChat where there's this little stick figure meme guy and it just said, "Why use HipChat?" And I thought that was the funniest thing, and the product was so delightful.
我永远不会忘记你们都贴出的宣传 HipChat 的广告牌，上面有一个火柴人表情包小人，上面只是写着：“为什么要使用 HipChat？”我认为这是最有趣的事情，而且产品非常令人愉快。
There's just all these little emojis in there, and the idea with HipChat for Atlassian was basically to become the Slack killer, that was the vision.
里面有所有这些小表情符号，Atlassian 的 HipChat 的想法基本上是成为 Slack 杀手，这就是愿景。
Tanguy Crusson: You just killed me.
唐吉·克鲁森：你刚刚杀了我。
We were way before Slack.
我们比 Slack 早得多。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, so first mover advantage, amazing product.
Lenny Rachitsky：好的，先发优势，令人惊叹的产品。
Lenny Rachitsky: And it was an acquisition for Atlassian.
Lenny Rachitsky：这是 Atlassian 的一次收购。
Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
So let's talk about what went wrong with HipChat.
那么我们来谈谈 HipChat 出了什么问题。
What did you learn?
你学到了什么？
Tanguy Crusson: All know Atlassian as company, as the tool that could almost have a, okay.
Tanguy Crusson：大家都知道 Atlassian 是一家公司，是一个几乎可以拥有的工具，好吧。
.
。
Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, this is the therapy.
Lenny Rachitsky：是的，这就是疗法。
The therapy session begins.
治疗疗程开始。
Tanguy Crusson: Yeah, it's going to start right there.
Tanguy Crusson：是的，一切就从这里开始。
Me and everyone else from the HipChat team I can tell you.
我和 HipChat 团队的其他人可以告诉你。
Okay, so yes, HipChat was an acquisition, team of 20 people or so.
好吧，是的，HipChat 是被收购的，团队大约有 20 人。
It was Slack before Slack was there.
在 Slack 出现之前，它就是 Slack。
Great traction and lot of, it was a darling with startups.
巨大的吸引力和很多，它是初创公司的宠儿。
It was a new way to collaborate back then.
这在当时是一种新的合作方式。
There were a few of these smaller apps that were trying to do this thing.
有一些较小的应用程序正在尝试做这件事。
I remember actually joining Atlassian.
我记得实际上加入了 Atlassian。
Before that, I was working with financial services, banks and stuff like that, and we were big meeting to talk about stuff, or going to someone's desk to talk about stuff.
在此之前，我与金融服务、银行等机构合作，我们开会讨论一些事情，或者去某人的办公桌前讨论一些事情。
I joined this company where my colleagues who sit on the same floor as me and on the same table, we talk over the computer via chat.
我加入这家公司，和我坐在同一层、同一张桌子上的同事们，我们通过电脑聊天。
I often felt weird at first looking over my shoulder to the person I'm currently talking to and we're having an argument, but we're doing it over text.
当我第一次回头看正在与我交谈的人时，我常常感到很奇怪，我们正在争论，但我们是通过短信进行的。
Anyway, it might seem a bit cute to the people who had been born in the Slack world, but it was a major change back then.
无论如何，对于出生在 Slack 世界的人来说，这可能看起来有点可爱，但在当时这是一个重大变化。
Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, I remember that.
Lenny Rachitsky：是的，我记得。
I remember that, I was in the same office with my team and we're using HipChat to chat and it felt strange.
我记得，我和我的团队在同一个办公室，我们使用 HipChat 聊天，感觉很奇怪。
Now it's completely normal.
现在完全正常了。
Tanguy Crusson: It's just normal, and Hipchat was one of the first to move there.
Tanguy Crusson：这很正常，Hipchat 是最早搬到那里的公司之一。
Slack came out of nowhere.
Slack 不知从何而来。
Company actually initially was focused more on gaming and they really took the market by storm.
实际上，公司最初更专注于游戏，他们确实席卷了市场。
The growth numbers were dizzying when we're looking at them.
当我们看到这些增长数字时，令人眼花缭乱。
And so at some point, Hipchat was left relatively alone for a while inside Atlassian.
因此，在某个时候，Hipchat 在 Atlassian 中相对孤立一段时间。
You're doing something good, so keep going after it.
你正在做一些好事，所以继续努力吧。
But with Slack, we now had to try to go bigger, so we started this thing called HipChat Go Big, the team, they recruited-
但对于 Slack，我们现在必须尝试做得更大，所以我们开始了这个名为 HipChat Go Big 的项目，他们招募了这个团队 -
Lenny Rachitsky: That was the name of the project?
Lenny Rachitsky：这就是项目的名称？
HipChat Go Big?
HipChat 变大了吗？
Tanguy Crusson: Yeah, HipChat Go Big.
Tanguy Crusson：是的，HipChat 发展壮大。
And then it was HipChat Next Gen, there was a few different.
然后是 HipChat Next Gen，有一些不同。
Anyway, yeah.
无论如何，是的。
Lenny Rachitsky: Very clear.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：非常清楚。
HipChat Go Big, I love it.
HipChat 变大，我喜欢它。
Tanguy Crusson: Go big.
Tanguy Crusson：做大。
But it was really a go big, lots of new developers, lots of new product managers, designers, the full company behind this product kind of thing.
但这确实是一个大动作，有很多新的开发人员、很多新的产品经理、设计师，以及这个产品背后的整个公司。
We tried to grow it very aggressively for a product that did not change that fast before it had reached good product market fit already, hundreds of thousands of users on a daily basis, and all of a sudden that you get a lot of people who want to make changes to it, to compete against this new threat.
我们试图非常积极地发展它，因为该产品在达到良好的产品市场契合度之前并没有那么快地改变，每天有数十万用户，突然之间，你会得到很多人想要对其进行更改，以对抗这种新的威胁。
The platform is not so ready for so many people to work on it.
该平台还没有准备好让这么多人在上面工作。
And so we got to the inevitable, okay, it's too much tech, we can't do much about it so we made the decision to rewrite it.
所以我们遇到了不可避免的情况，好吧，技术太多了，我们对此无能为力，所以我们决定重写它。
There's lots of literature around there around should you do rewrite?
周围有很多文献，你应该重写吗？
Should you not do rewrite?
你不应该重写吗？
You ask me now, I tell you never.
你现在问我，我告诉你永远不会。
Trust me.
相信我。
Lenny Rachitsky: That's what most of the advice is, never do a rewrite, and people still do it.
Lenny Rachitsky：这就是大多数建议，永远不要重写，但人们仍然这样做。
Tanguy Crusson: Never do a rewrite, and there's good reasons for that.
Tanguy Crusson：永远不要重写，这是有充分理由的。
But basically we did that and out of it came up actually a new product called Stride, which was initially "HipChat next gen." The problem is that the product was great, but by the time we were done, Slack was just miles ahead of us.
但基本上我们做到了这一点，并由此产生了一个名为 Stride 的新产品，最初是“HipChat next gen”。问题是，这个产品很棒，但当我们完成时，Slack 已经领先我们数英里了。
At that point, Microsoft launched Teams.
就在此时，微软推出了 Teams。
I don't know if you remember this moment where Slack put an ad in the, I think it was The New York Times, copying the Apple versus Microsoft thing from ages before going, "Welcome to the game, welcome to the party, we'll welcome you competitors," and stuff like that and Slack got pretty much destroyed by Teams.
我不知道你是否还记得 Slack 在《纽约时报》上投放广告的那一刻，抄袭了很久以前苹果与微软的对决，“欢迎来到游戏，欢迎来到派对，我们欢迎你们的竞争对手”之类的东西，然后 Slack 几乎被 Teams 摧毁了。
We started coming because it was like Microsoft distribution advantage.
我们开始来是因为这就像微软的分销优势。
Everyone in Office is going to get it.
Office 中的每个人都会得到它。
They're giving it for free as part of Office, it was unbundled I think a few months ago.
他们将其作为 Office 的一部分免费提供，我认为几个月前它已经被分拆了。
Lenny Rachitsky: Which is ironic because in theory, Atlassian also has that same advantage, right?
Lenny Rachitsky：这很讽刺，因为从理论上讲，Atlassian 也有同样的优势，对吧？
You have all these products, you could bundle it.
您拥有所有这些产品，您可以将其捆绑在一起。
Tanguy Crusson: We are going to talk about that actually in a minute.
Tanguy Crusson：我们稍后会讨论这个问题。
Tanguy Crusson: Because that was what helped us, how we thought we would win, and it was how I think we lost.
Tanguy Crusson：因为这对我们有帮助，我们认为我们会赢，这也是我认为我们输的原因。
Tanguy Crusson: So anyway, this all happened, and in the end we executed the market.
Tanguy Crusson：所以无论如何，这一切都发生了，最终我们执行了市场。
We sold HipChat and Stride to Slack and basically exited the enterprise communications market.
我们把 HipChat 和 Stride 卖给了 Slack，基本上退出了企业通信市场。
Lenny Rachitsky: Just to double down that, but you sold that to Slack and now Salesforce basically, that's the word ended.
Lenny Rachitsky：只是为了加倍，但你把它卖给了 Slack，现在基本上卖给了 Salesforce，这句话就结束了。
I don't know if people know that.
我不知道人们是否知道这一点。
Tanguy Crusson: Yeah, actually, it was noticed by the market in that as soon as we did that, our stock price went up.
Tanguy Crusson：是的，实际上，市场注意到我们一这样做，我们的股价就上涨了。
I think it was $60 back then and it went up to 70.
我记得当时是 60 美元，后来涨到了 70 美元。
I mean, that really sucked for us, the team working on it.
我的意思是，这对我们团队来说真的很糟糕。
First, no one tells you, but failure, everyone tells you failure is great because you learn so many things, but failure to start with really sucks.
首先，没有人告诉你，但是失败，每个人都告诉你失败是伟大的，因为你学到了很多东西，但是一开始的失败真的很糟糕。
None of us here were really happy about this on the team because we had spent years, on my part, it was three years, but the people who were before that on HipChat was longer than that.
我们团队中没有人对此感到真正高兴，因为我们已经花了很多年，就我而言，是三年，但之前在 HipChat 上工作的人比这更长。
Obsessing over it, obsessing over every detail, every customer conversation, every solution, should we rewrite, should we this, should we do that?
痴迷于它，痴迷于每一个细节，每一次客户对话，每一个解决方案，我们应该重写，我们应该这样做，我们应该这样做吗？
Tanguy Crusson: So many intense conversations, and from one day to the next, it didn't matter anymore.
Tanguy Crusson：这么多激烈的谈话，一天又一天，这已经不再重要了。
We had worked on something and that's it, that's the end.
我们做了一些事情，就这样，结束了。
I'm sure many startups have been through that before.
我确信许多初创公司以前都经历过这种情况。
For me it was the first time it felt that personal, and the market the next day went, "Oh, you're stopping doing what you're doing?
对我来说，这是第一次感到如此个人化，第二天市场就开始说：“哦，你要停止做你正在做的事情了吗？
Awesome.
太棒了。
Yes, 10 more dollars to your stock price." So yeah, there's a personal side to all the stories.
是的，你的股价再涨 10 美元。”所以是的，所有的故事都有个人的一面。
For us, there was a bit like the seven stages of grief after we shut down HipChat.
对我们来说，这有点像关闭 HipChat 后的七个悲伤阶段。
Lenny Rachitsky: How long was that period of mourning and stages for you and the team?
Lenny Rachitsky：对于你和团队来说，这段哀悼和舞台经历了多长时间？
Tanguy Crusson: It lasted a few months.
Tanguy Crusson：持续了几个月。
I was not part of the decision making team for shutting down HipChat.
我不是关闭 HipChat 的决策团队的成员。
I was one of the product managers on the team leading one of the three pillars.
我是领导三大支柱之一的团队的产品经理之一。
I got brought in, I think it was a month or two, a month before it was announced for the team to go, "Hey, Tanguy, by the way, just so you know, HipChat is no more, and now your mission is to find a new mission for the team after that."
我被带进来，我想是一两个月，一个月后宣布团队要离开，“嘿，Tanguy，顺便说一句，你知道，HipChat 已经不复存在了，现在你的任务是为团队找到一个新的任务。”
Tanguy Crusson: We basically spend the next two, three months trying to make sure that the squads were created to fully own what they do there, to make sure that they're the ones talking to the customers, they're the other ones trying to come up with strategies, trying to come up with solutions and everything in that area.
Tanguy Crusson：我们基本上会在接下来的两三个月里努力确保创建的团队能够完全掌控他们在那里所做的事情，确保他们是与客户交谈的人，他们是其他试图提出策略、试图提出解决方案以及该领域的一切的人。
As long as it was people interacting with Atlassian products on other surfaces, everything was fair game, and so there was a lot of ups and downs and everything.
只要人们在其他表面上与 Atlassian 产品进行交互，一切都是公平的，所以会有很多起伏和一切。
I think it took about two, three months before we got back to a new rhythm.
我认为我们花了大约两三个月的时间才回到新的节奏。
And some people, when we talk about it, were still scarred by it basically.
当我们谈论它时，有些人基本上仍然受到了伤痕累累。
Lenny Rachitsky: What are some lessons from that experience?
Lenny Rachitsky：那次经历有哪些教训？
Tanguy Crusson: Yeah, so the main one that I personally got from this, and it's back to the hypothesis that you talked about, which we have all these successful products, we can expand into this one which is, and I quote it, but it's just myself, don't eat your own bullshit, which is a mix of two things.
Tanguy Crusson：是的，所以我个人从中得到的主要一个，这又回到了你谈到的假设，我们拥有所有这些成功的产品，我们可以扩展到这个，我引用它，但这只是我自己，不要吃你自己的废话，这是两件事的混合。
We've got a company value that says open company, no bullshit.
我们的公司价值观是开放公司，没有废话。
So we need to be able to talk about the things like they are, and we don't try to make things sound smarter than they are.
因此，我们需要能够按照事情本来的样子来谈论事情，并且我们不会试图让事情听起来比实际情况更聪明。
We don't try to hide the truth, we go after that truth, and we don't hide stuff from each other.
我们不会试图隐瞒真相，我们会追寻真相，而且我们不会互相隐瞒事情。
We share with everyone, we are open by default.
我们分享给大家，我们默认是开放的。
So that's one of the values and we do a lot of dogfooding, so eat your own dog food.
这就是我们的价值观之一，我们做了很多狗粮测试，所以吃你自己的狗粮。
We do test our own software a lot.
我们确实经常测试自己的软件。
Tanguy Crusson: I've noticed that sometimes there are things that we do while we tend to believe stuff because it's worked for us before, and we have this assumption that it's going to keep working for us forever.
Tanguy Crusson：我注意到，有时我们在做某些事情时往往会相信一些东西，因为它以前对我们有用，而且我们假设它会永远对我们有用。
The founders keep telling us what took us here won't take us there.
创始人一直告诉我们，是什么把我们带到了这里，但不会把我们带到那里。
That's a thing we keep hearing over and over again.
这是我们不断听到的事情。
But it's very easy for teams when they see success of something to think that it's successful because of X, but X is not validated.
但是，当团队看到某件事的成功时，他们很容易认为它的成功是因为 X，但 X 并未得到验证。
That's where we go back to the topic we've got today, which is why is doing this in a successful company harder sometimes.
这就是我们回到今天的主题的地方，这就是为什么在一家成功的公司有时会更难做到这一点。
Well, Atlassian was successful with the playbook, and the playbook was we've got people in developers or tech or IT.
嗯，Atlassian 的剧本很成功，我们的剧本是开发人员、技术人员或 IT 人员。
They choose Atlassian apps, they love them.
他们选择 Atlassian 应用程序，并且喜欢它们。
They start to recommend them to people in the business, and we start to see adoption, bottom-up adoption across the company before people decide to standardize on Atlassian.
他们开始向业务人员推荐它们，在人们决定对 Atlassian 进行标准化之前，我们开始看到整个公司自下而上的采用。
Tanguy Crusson: We made the bet that we can apply this playbook to this market, which is basically we can, from people to use Jira, introduce HipChat, and then people will go into HipChat first in tech teams, and then it will expand into business teams, and it'll go world to world basically from that.
Tanguy Crusson：我们打赌我们可以将这个剧本应用到这个市场，基本上我们可以从人们使用 Jira 开始，引入 HipChat，然后人们会首先在技术团队中使用 HipChat，然后它会扩展到业务团队，基本上从此以后它将走向世界。
The thing is we didn't, in my opinion, do enough to validate that assumption early enough.
在我看来，问题是我们没有足够早地验证这一假设。
We did a lot of work, a lot of work even on other things, even when faced with signals that this might not work.
我们做了很多工作，甚至在其他事情上也做了很多工作，即使面临着这可能行不通的信号。
I do remember talking with a lot of customers who were like, "Well, we've got, the IT is on HipChat, but the business prefer Slack." And then we started to see those businesses choosing Slack, which is the, initially it was like the developers try things and they like it and then everyone starts to adopt.
我确实记得与很多客户交谈，他们说：“嗯，我们已经知道，IT 在 HipChat 上，但企业更喜欢 Slack。”然后我们开始看到那些企业选择 Slack，最初就像开发人员尝试一些东西并且他们喜欢它，然后每个人都开始采用。
In that case, the Slack managed to create a very strong fund base in roles that were not tech and IT.
在这种情况下，Slack 成功地在技术和 IT 以外的角色上建立了非常强大的资金基础。
Tanguy Crusson: It was the moment where the consumerization of apps, that trend was starting to get really high.
Tanguy Crusson：正是在应用程序消费化的时刻，这种趋势开始变得非常高。
Slack really rode that and they focused everything in their experience to catch that.
Slack 确实抓住了这一点，他们集中一切经验来抓住这一点。
They gamified onboarding, they focused a lot more on the look and feel.
他们将入职游戏化，更加注重外观和感觉。
They try to make it pleasant, modern, functional to use.
他们试图让它变得令人愉快、现代、实用。
There's a lot of stuff that we learned since then from what they did, we had missed that part.
从那时起，我们从他们所做的事情中学到了很多东西，我们错过了那部分。
The part that I took personally from that is that there's a lot of assumptions in what made us successful, it doesn't mean that it's going to work.
我个人认为，我们成功的原因有很多假设，但这并不意味着它会起作用。
Lenny Rachitsky: Just I understand what you're saying, which is really interesting that Atlassian was really successful selling basically to the buyer within the org, the IT team because they had everything they needed.
Lenny Rachitsky：我明白你在说什么，这真的很有趣，Atlassian 确实成功地基本上向组织内的买家、IT 团队销售，因为他们拥有所需的一切。
They checked all the checkboxes, but it turned out in the Slack case, it was the users that ended up having the most influence over what tool they'd opted.
他们检查了所有复选框，但事实证明，在 Slack 案例中，用户最终对他们选择的工具具有最大的影响力。
Tanguy Crusson: I'd actually phrase it more as both were going after the users.
Tanguy Crusson：实际上我想说得更多，因为两者都在追求用户。
Atlassian was going after the users in tech teams, Slack was going after the users in business teams.
Atlassian 追求的是技术团队的用户，Slack 追求的是业务团队的用户。
And in both cases, what happened was a bottom-up adoption.
在这两种情况下，发生的都是自下而上的采用。
The people on the other side, the business would prefer Slack, the developers, they prefer the HipChat.
另一方面，企业更喜欢 Slack，开发人员则更喜欢 HipChat。
We did a lot of work in the streams I was working on.
我们在我正在处理的流中做了很多工作。
We're integrating with every developer tooling out there to make sure that every tool that they use goes into HipChat and from HipChat back to those tools.
我们正在与每个开发人员工具集成，以确保他们使用的每个工具都进入 HipChat，并从 HipChat 返回到这些工具。
And basically, they can do a lot of work by seeing an activity stream in HipChat.
基本上，他们可以通过查看 HipChat 中的活动流来完成很多工作。
Business?
商业？
Eh, not so excited by this.
呃，对此不太兴奋。
Emojis, a lot of other things that may at some point I remember we were thinking those things were trivial.
表情符号，还有很多其他的事情，我记得在某些时候我们可能认为这些事情是微不足道的。
No, they were not trivial.
不，它们并不是微不足道的。
It was just a different approach for using the tool by a different set of users that we did not talk enough to.
这只是不同的用户使用该工具的不同方法，我们没有与之进行足够的交谈。
Lenny Rachitsky: So is the lesson here, don't underestimate the challenge you'll have convincing a new segment to buy your thing.
Lenny Rachitsky：这就是我们的教训，不要低估说服新群体购买你的产品所面临的挑战。
You may think they're close or similar, but they're probably not.
您可能认为它们很接近或相似，但事实可能并非如此。
Tanguy Crusson: Yeah, that's one of them.
Tanguy Crusson：是的，这就是其中之一。
The other one is what took you here is not going to take you there.
另一种是把你带到这里的东西不会带你去那里。
And so go back and try to explain why you are successful today, and then if you think you can use the same thing on the next thing, find ways to validate it, find ways to test it.
所以回去尝试解释为什么你今天成功了，然后如果你认为你可以在下一件事上使用同样的东西，找到验证它的方法，找到测试它的方法。
Don't just go and build on those assumptions.
不要只是建立在这些假设的基础上。
That's the main thing I got out of this ordeal basically for the stuff I did after.
这是我从这次磨难中得到的主要收获，基本上是我之后所做的事情。
Lenny Rachitsky: How would you do that?
莱尼·拉奇茨基：你会怎么做？
How would you go about and test it?
您将如何进行测试？
Is it use research?
是利用研究吗？
Is it the PMs talking to potential users?
是 PM 与潜在用户交谈吗？
What would you have done there?
你会在那里做什么？
Tanguy Crusson: For example, when we started Jira for the Discovery, which is, so maybe I should introduce this for a second.
Tanguy Crusson：例如，当我们为 Discovery 启动 Jira 时，也许我应该介绍一下这一点。
It's a product for product managers, which is mainly used for prioritization and roadmap.
它是一款面向产品经理的产品，主要用于确定优先级和路线图。
People use Jira to plan and track work when it's committed.
人们使用 Jira 来计划和跟踪已提交的工作。
We wanted to create a space before that so people debate priorities with everyone that should be involved in that prioritization process, whether it be the developers, designers, so people in the product team or people outside of it, customer success, salespeople, support, leadership and so on and so forth.
我们想在此之前创建一个空间，以便人们与应该参与优先级确定过程的每个人讨论优先级，无论是开发人员、设计师、产品团队中的人员还是产品团队之外的人员、客户成功人员、销售人员、支持人员、领导层等等。
When we started, that we thought, okay, the product managers are already in Jira.
当我们开始时，我们想，好吧，产品经理已经在 Jira 中了。
You know what?
你知道吗？
We can reach them.
我们可以联系到他们。
So we create the tool, and then we'll distribute it from Jira.
因此，我们创建了该工具，然后从 Jira 分发它。
We could have gone down the path of building that and then started to start to distribute it.
我们本可以沿着构建它的道路走下去，然后开始分发它。
Tanguy Crusson: Instead, we did things like before we brought a single line of code, put an ad inside a Jira newsletter going, "Hey, we've got this thing for product managers coming up." And then we had a website that before we had any line of code written that said, "Hey, product managers, your job is hard.
Tanguy Crusson：相反，我们做了像之前一样的事情，我们带来了一行代码，在 Jira 时事通讯中放置了一个广告，“嘿，我们为产品经理准备了这个东西。”然后我们有一个网站，在我们编写任何代码行之前，上面写着：“嘿，产品经理，你的工作很辛苦。
We want to help, put your name here if you want to join us on the journey," that kind of thing.
我们想提供帮助，如果你想加入我们的旅程，请在这里留下你的名字，”之类的事情。
And that's when we saw, I think it was in two weeks, we got more than 3000 signups to that waitlist.
就在那时我们看到，我想在两周内，我们就有超过 3000 名注册者加入了候补名单。
We're like, "Okay, cool.
我们就像，“好吧，酷。
Validation of demand." We are talking to people who are interested and we can reach them.
验证需求。”我们正在与感兴趣的人交谈，我们可以联系到他们。
That's one examples of the things that I tried later, just to make sure that we validate the hypothesis that we've got much earlier on in the game basically, and not once it's too late.
这是我后来尝试的事情的一个例子，只是为了确保我们验证我们在游戏中已经很早就得到的假设，而不是一旦为时已晚。
Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
That's an awesome, very tactical example.
这是一个很棒的、非常有策略性的例子。
Tanguy Crusson: Yeah, most of those are, none of what I'm going to talk about today is revolutionary.
Tanguy Crusson：是的，其中大部分都是，我今天要谈论的内容都不是革命性的。
A lot of it is just trying to apply, asking the right question at the right time, and trying to go by whatever means to answer it really.
其中很多只是尝试应用，在正确的时间提出正确的问题，并尝试通过任何方式真正回答它。
Lenny Rachitsky: Any other lessons from the HipChat experience before we shift to a different product?
Lenny Rachitsky：在我们转向其他产品之前，HipChat 的体验还有其他教训吗？
Tanguy Crusson: I've got two, I'm going to do them quickly.
Tanguy Crusson：我有两个，我会尽快完成。
The first one is competitive myopia, don't fall for it.
第一个是竞争性近视，不要上当。
At some point, the Slack was really gaining round and gaining round and capturing more of the mindshare.
在某些时候，Slack 真的越来越受欢迎，并占据了更多的关注度。
And everyone on Twitter was always loving them.
Twitter 上的每个人都一直很喜欢他们。
Even when they had outrages, they were getting congratulated.
即使他们受到愤怒，他们也会受到祝贺。
I was like, "This is working mad." But the love was so strong, and the way we tended to revert back is to our functional side of the brain going, okay, we just need this one more feature.
我当时想，“这太疯狂了。”但爱是如此强烈，我们倾向于恢复的方式是大脑的功能部分，好吧，我们只需要多一个功能。
We just need this one more feature, we just need this one more feature.
我们只需要这一项功能，我们只需要这一项功能。
And we ended up reacting to whatever.
我们最终对任何事情都做出了反应。
Tanguy Crusson: ...
唐吉·克鲁森：……
more feature.
更多功能。
We just need this one more feature.
我们只需要这一项功能。
And we ended up reacting to whatever the competitor was doing, which I think is really, really bad because that's when we lost basically what made HipChat successful so far, which is to serve some users really well.
我们最终对竞争对手所做的一切做出了反应，我认为这真的非常糟糕，因为那时我们基本上失去了 HipChat 迄今为止成功的基础，即为一些用户提供真正的服务。
And instead we ended up fast following based on what the competitor was doing, which is super bad because your competitor, if you think of what they do as an iceberg, the top side, what comes out of the water is what they've shipped in terms of features, but it's based on all this stuff that they've built in terms of research and understanding of their customer base and everything else.
相反，我们最终根据竞争对手正在做的事情快速跟进，这是非常糟糕的，因为你的竞争对手，如果你把他们所做的事情视为冰山，最上面的部分，从水中出来的就是他们在功能方面所提供的东西，但它是基于他们在研究和理解客户群和其他一切方面建立的所有这些东西。
And so you're just seeing the manifestation of what they were thinking maybe a year ago, based on what they're shipping now.
所以你只是看到了他们一年前的想法的表现，基于他们现在正在发货的东西。
But we got there.
但我们到了那里。
Tanguy Crusson: And now whenever I work, I tend to try and ignore competition other than watching every three months or so, seeing what came out, if there's anything we should be worried about, afraid of, stuff like that.
Tanguy Crusson：现在每当我工作时，我都会尝试忽略竞争，而不是每三个月左右观察一次，看看会发生什么，是否有什么我们应该担心、害怕的事情。
But really just try to disconnect all the creative process and the research process from what competitors do, because you can't compare.
但实际上只是尝试将所有创意过程和研究过程与竞争对手所做的分开，因为你无法进行比较。
The market is huge.
市场巨大。
There are hundreds of thousands of companies out there.
那里有数十万家公司。
Not everyone has the same needs.
并非每个人都有相同的需求。
We serve a particular set of segments.
我们服务于一组特定的细分市场。
We would do better learning from them to then expand to the others than watching what competition is doing.
我们会更好地向他们学习，然后扩展到其他人，而不是观察竞争对手在做什么。
Lenny Rachitsky: And this is advice you give to your teams, just ignore the competition, maybe pay attention at big announcements and things like that?
Lenny Rachitsky：这是你给团队的建议，忽略竞争，也许关注重大公告之类的事情？
Tanguy Crusson: We always see in the Slack Channels team sharing, okay, they just did this with AI, they just did that.
Tanguy Crusson：我们总是在 Slack Channels 团队中看到分享，好吧，他们只是用 AI 做了这个，他们就是这么做的。
So it keeps coming up, and so we often have discussions to go back, to okay, let's watch again the user interviews that we did over the past three weeks.
所以它不断出现，所以我们经常进行讨论，好吧，让我们再次观看过去三周进行的用户采访。
Let's watch them all together now and remember who we are building this for.
现在让我们一起观看它们，并记住我们是为谁构建的。
So there's a lot of trying to anchor back on what we know and how, basically building our own journey on it.
因此，我们做了很多尝试，以我们所知道的和如何做为基础，基本上在此基础上构建我们自己的旅程。
And I think it's much richer for everyone to be involved.
我认为每个人都参与其中会更富有。
Lenny Rachitsky: I love that.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢这个。
So you're finding that when there's a big announcement and everyone's like, "Oh my God, look what Slack's doing," or "Look what this company's doing." It's like, "Okay, now let's spend a little time reminding ourselves what our customers have been asking us to do and let's watch a couple of user interviews."
所以你会发现，当有一个重大公告时，每个人都会说，“天啊，看看 Slack 在做什么”，或者“看看这家公司在做什么”。就像是，“好吧，现在让我们花一点时间提醒自己，我们的客户要求我们做什么，然后让我们观看一些用户访谈。”
Tanguy Crusson: And even when there is something that competitors do that is right, remember, we're playing the long run and we don't always need to be first and shinier.
Tanguy Crusson：即使竞争对手做了正确的事情，请记住，我们是在着眼长远，我们并不总是需要成为第一和更耀眼。
We need to make sure that people have a problem, we solve this problem.
我们需要确保人们有问题，我们就解决这个问题。
They tell us, we solve this problem for them.
他们告诉我们，我们为他们解决这个问题。
They are delighted when we solve these problems for them.
当我们为他们解决这些问题时，他们很高兴。
And so that's the stuff we should be obsessing about.
这就是我们应该关注的事情。
Lenny Rachitsky: I love that.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢这个。
And you said you had one more lesson from this experience.
你说你从这次经历中又学到了一个教训。
Tanguy Crusson: Yeah, the last one, startups have the benefit of starving.
Tanguy Crusson：是的，最后一个，初创公司有挨饿的好处。
Right?
正确的？
We're a big company, we can throw a lot of resources at something that we're excited about.
我们是一家大公司，我们可以在我们感兴趣的事情上投入大量资源。
So this notion of we rebuild the HipChat, was coupled with we rebuild the HipChat and we'll do this on a new platform, which is microservices and everything that we built can be reused across all the other products.
因此，我们重建 HipChat 的想法与我们重建 HipChat 相结合，我们将在一个新平台上执行此操作，该平台是微服务，我们构建的所有内容都可以在所有其他产品中重用。
So the chat text box that you've got, it's an editor that can be open full screen and it's a Confluence editor with everything that you can do there.
因此，您拥有的聊天文本框是一个可以全屏打开的编辑器，它是一个 Confluence 编辑器，其中包含您可以执行的所有操作。
It's built as a platform component, which is amazing when the platform is there when you start building the product.
它是作为一个平台组件构建的，当您开始构建产品时平台就在那里，这是令人惊奇的。
Where it's really difficult is when you try to do the two at the same time.
真正困难的是当你尝试同时做这两件事时。
So I think that part, if I were to work on HipChat again and say I was leading that thing, that's the part I would go, okay, we need to win the problem space first, and if the platform is there, let's use it.
所以我认为这部分，如果我再次在 HipChat 上工作并说我正在领导那件事，那就是我会去的部分，好吧，我们需要首先赢得问题空间，如果平台在那里，让我们使用它。
If it's not there, we'll hack it, test it, iterate on it with customers, and then whatever is good there, let's platformize it later.
如果不存在，我们将破解它，测试它，与客户一起迭代它，然后无论那里有什么好的，让我们稍后将其平台化。
Tanguy Crusson: But that's where you see what makes us super powerful as a bigger company, can also slow us down and make us focus on the wrong assumptions.
Tanguy Crusson：但这就是我们作为一家大公司变得超级强大的原因，但也可能会减慢我们的速度，让我们专注于错误的假设。
So in that case, I think we thought we will win.
所以在那种情况下，我认为我们认为我们会赢。
Interestingly, I think we were convinced that we had a great shot at this market.
有趣的是，我认为我们确信我们在这个市场上有很大的机会。
And at the same time we thought that we could tackle the rewrite and we could tackle the platformization.
与此同时，我们认为我们可以解决重写问题，也可以解决平台化问题。
All these things were necessary, but all of them at the same time was probably a bit too much to bite.
所有这些都是必要的，但同时所有这些可能有点难以承受。
Now I'm saying that, but today the editor you see in Confluence started with what we did in HipChat back then.
现在我是这么说的，但今天你在 Confluence 中看到的编辑器是从我们当时在 HipChat 中所做的开始的。
So I would say that in terms of code, purely in terms of code, 70% of what we wrote for HipChat is probably still in the Atlassian platform today.
所以我想说，就代码而言，纯粹就代码而言，我们为 HipChat 编写的 70% 的内容今天可能仍在 Atlassian 平台中。
But for a new bet, local Optima, that was really bad.
但对于一个新的赌注，当地的 Optima，这真的很糟糕。
Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。
Just thinking about the fact that Atlassian could have had this $30 billion business if this worked out, and I could see why people would be frustrated that it didn't work out.
想想如果这个计划成功的话，Atlassian 本来可以拥有这个价值 300 亿美元的业务，我就明白为什么人们会因为它不成功而感到沮丧。
So thank you for sharing that story.
谢谢你分享这个故事。
Let's talk about Statuspage, another journey that you were a part of, that also didn't quite work out the way folks had hoped.
让我们来谈谈 Statuspage，这是您参与的另一个旅程，但也没有完全按照人们希望的方式进行。
Our therapy session continues.
我们的治疗继续进行。
Talk about what that product was and what happened there.
谈论该产品是什么以及那里发生了什么。
Tanguy Crusson: Yeah, so this one is actually a success story, but became a success story after I was gone
Tanguy Crusson：是的，所以这实际上是一个成功的故事，但在我离开后才成为一个成功的故事
Tanguy Crusson: That's more like a story of big companies can play the long run and for you individually inside that process, it might look like a loss and you might feel like you're going nowhere, yet the company stays on the opportunity for long enough to make it happen.
Tanguy Crusson：这更像是一个大公司可以长期发展的故事，对于这个过程中的你个人来说，这可能看起来像是一种损失，你可能会觉得自己一事无成，但公司会长期抓住机会，以实现这一目标。
So what we're going to talk about here are my own challenges working through it for something that ended up being very successful in the end, but I felt as a failure personally back then.
所以我们在这里要讨论的是我自己克服困难的挑战，最终取得了非常成功的结果，但当时我个人感觉是失败的。
So Statuspage at some point...
所以状态页面在某个时候......
So Jira is used by developers, right?
那么 Jira 是由开发人员使用的，对吗？
And back then, I think it was back in 2016 or even before that, 2015, everyone was moving to the cloud, everyone was adopting DevOps, you build it, you run it.
那时，我认为是在 2016 年，甚至更早，2015 年，每个人都在转向云，每个人都在采用 DevOps，你构建它，你运行它。
So basically developers would implement the software and then they would put it to production.
所以基本上开发人员会实现该软件，然后将其投入生产。
And after they put it to production, they don't throw it over the wall to operations people.
在将其投入生产后，他们不会将其扔给操作人员。
It's the same developers who operate the software in production.
在生产中操作该软件的是同一开发人员。
They go on call, yada yada.
他们随叫随到，yada yada。
Tanguy Crusson: So back then I did market research to see whether Atlassian should play there, whether we had a crack at going after all the jobs around IT operations.
Tanguy Crusson：当时我做了市场调查，看看 Atlassian 是否应该在那里发挥作用，我们是否有能力从事 IT 运营方面的所有工作。
So Jira was basically Jira software to build software.
所以 Jira 基本上是构建软件的 Jira 软件。
Could we have Jira for operations?
我们可以使用 Jira 进行操作吗？
So for operating this software.
所以对于这个软件的操作。
And so I did market research, found a few companies that were doing super interesting things there, like , Opsgenie, New Relic.
所以我做了市场调查，发现了一些在那里做超级有趣事情的公司，比如 Opsgenie、New Relic。
BigPanda was a small startup doing lots of cool stuff there, and Statuspage.
BigPanda 是一家小型初创公司，在那里做了很多很酷的事情，还有 Statuspage。
Now I discovered Statuspage and found their offering super interesting, in that Atlassian is not an operations...
现在我发现了 Statuspage 并发现他们的产品非常有趣，因为 Atlassian 不是一个操作......
We don't really build super deep operations tooling, what we focus on a lot is the collaborative aspects around everything.
我们并没有真正构建超深入的操作工具，我们重点关注的是围绕一切的协作方面。
And when I was watching teams in incidents, I realized that there's a lot of chicken without a head syndrome, headless chicken, people running around like bunch of headless chicken.
当我观察事件中的团队时，我意识到有很多没有头综合症的鸡，无头鸡，人们像一群无头鸡一样到处乱跑。
Tanguy Crusson: Shit hits the fan, and then what you see is teams just scrambling and everything gets mixed up all together in trying to fix the problem straight away, but at the same time questioning what happened, arguing over why we got there.
Tanguy Crusson：糟糕的事情发生了，然后你看到的是团队在争先恐后，所有事情都混在一起，试图立即解决问题，但同时质疑发生了什么，争论为什么我们会到达那里。
Your boss is pinging you to go, "Hey, what's going on?
你的老板正在催促你去，“嘿，发生什么事了？
I've been hearing that the app is down.
我听说该应用程序已关闭。
We're losing money." Customers are emailing you and asking you what's going...
我们正在赔钱。”客户向您发送电子邮件并询问您发生了什么事...
Your support channels get blown up.
你的支持渠道被炸毁。
Sales people are worried because their customers are calling them.
销售人员很担心，因为他们的客户正在打电话给他们。
So basically, it ends up being a super stressful experience for everyone.
所以基本上，这对每个人来说都是一次超级压力的经历。
Tanguy Crusson: And what Statuspage was offering is something seemingly super simple, which is, well, what you should have is a status page for your services and you tell your customers about it and you can subscribe to your status page.
Tanguy Crusson：Statuspage 提供的东西看起来非常简单，也就是说，你应该拥有一个服务的状态页面，你告诉你的客户，你可以订阅你的状态页面。
Over there, you've got your services, and for those services you can publish an incident whenever there is one, and your customers will be notified, which means that they're not going to get in touch with support because they know you're on it.
在那里，您已经获得了服务，对于这些服务，只要有事件，您就可以发布事件，并且您的客户将收到通知，这意味着他们不会联系支持人员，因为他们知道您正在处理该事件。
It's going to build trust with them because basically you are open in your communication with them.
这将与他们建立信任，因为基本上你与他们的沟通是开放的。
They're more likely to empathize with your position and be supportive as opposed to, "Oh, that stuff is done again." So there was just so many benefits of that.
他们更有可能同情你的立场并支持你，而不是“哦，那件事又做了。”所以这样做有很多好处。
Lenny Rachitsky: I'm going to share a quick story while you're on this topic.
Lenny Rachitsky：当您谈论这个话题时，我将分享一个简短的故事。
Lenny Rachitsky: Funny enough, a decade ago, I used to work at a website performance monitoring company and I started a blog called Transparent Uptime.
Lenny Rachitsky：有趣的是，十年前，我曾经在一家网站性能监控公司工作，我开了一个名为“透明正常运行时间”的博客。
And my whole blog was about the power of being transparent about being down, telling people the status of things are broken right now, here's when things are going to return.
我的整个博客都是关于对失败保持透明的力量，告诉人们事物的状态现在已经被破坏，而此时事物将会回归。
It was a whole thing I was really obsessed with, and I was deep into this space.
这是我真正着迷的一件事，我对这个领域很深入。
So when I saw Statuspage back in the day and Atlassian working, I was like, "I love this." And I actually chatted with the founders a bit, because they were fans of that work I was doing back in the day.
因此，当我当时看到 Statuspage 和 Atlassian 工作时，我就想，“我喜欢这个。”我实际上和创始人聊了一会儿，因为他们是我当时所做的工作的粉丝。
Completely unrelated to anything else I've done in my life.
与我一生中所做的任何其他事情完全无关。
But I was really passionate about this very strange topic and I love that companies are embracing it.
但我真的对这个非常奇怪的话题充满热情，我喜欢公司正在拥抱它。
Tanguy Crusson: I really loved diving deep into it for a few years, it's an amazing topic.
Tanguy Crusson：几年来我真的很喜欢深入研究它，这是一个令人惊奇的话题。
And so anyway, there's so many fascinating things about this particular domain, but back then...
无论如何，这个特定领域有很多令人着迷的事情，但当时......
So find Statuspage and we invited a few of those companies to work with us for a week to go, hey, so we're at Atlassian, we're basically the collaboration hub for everything that happens for developing teams.
所以找到 Statuspage，我们邀请了其中一些公司与我们合作一周，嘿，所以我们在 Atlassian，我们基本上是开发团队发生的所有事情的协作中心。
What would an experience look like that puts everything together and where could actually help you get the right information to the right team so they can act on it?
将所有内容整合在一起的体验会是什么样子？哪里可以真正帮助您向正确的团队提供正确的信息，以便他们能够采取行动？
Tanguy Crusson: And so we did a week of hackathon in San Francisco all together.
Tanguy Crusson：所以我们在旧金山一起进行了为期一周的黑客马拉松。
So people from New Relic, Statuspage and a few other companies.
来自 New Relic、Statuspage 和其他一些公司的人员。
And out of that came really interesting concepts and there was really something there and I was like, "Okay, I should start to work on a business case for Atlassian for basically IT tool/operations." Now, big companies like Atlassian, we've got money.
由此产生了非常有趣的概念，确实有一些东西，我想，“好吧，我应该开始为 Atlassian 开发一个基本 IT 工具/操作的业务案例。”现在，像 Atlassian 这样的大公司，我们有钱了。
So in every strategy that we've got, we've got cash in the bank, we always look at should we build, should we buy, should we partner?
因此，在我们制定的每一项战略中，我们在银行里都有现金，我们总是考虑我们是否应该建造，我们应该购买，我们应该合作吗？
Acquisitions can be really powerful to accelerate you.
收购对于加速你的发展确实非常有效。
We've got quite a few success stories there.
我们在那里有很多成功案例。
Can't remember how many we did, but Trello is one of the good examples of that, for example.
不记得我们做了多少次，但 Trello 就是很好的例子之一。
So we decided to buy Statuspage and I was running the integration of the Statuspage business inside the Atlassian business.
因此，我们决定购买 Statuspage，我负责将 Statuspage 业务整合到 Atlassian 业务中。
Lenny Rachitsky: Thanks for sharing all that context.
Lenny Rachitsky：感谢您分享所有这些背景信息。
What are some of the things that you learned from going through this experience?
您从这次经历中学到了哪些东西？
It sounds like basically it was really painful when you were a part of it and then it ended up being really successful.
听起来基本上当你参与其中时真的很痛苦，但最终却非常成功。
What are some lessons from the pain?
从痛苦中可以得到什么教训？
Tanguy Crusson: My learnings from it were on the acquisition side.
Tanguy Crusson：我从中学到的东西是在收购方面。
So big company, we've got cash, we can buy a company, it will make us go faster, is not always the case.
那么大的公司，我们有现金，我们可以收购一家公司，这会让我们走得更快，但情况并非总是如此。
In my case, there were quite a few things that were not as easy as I would've thought.
就我而言，有很多事情并不像我想象的那么容易。
The first one is the culture shock of a startup that joins your company.
第一个是初创公司加入你的公司所带来的文化冲击。
So imagine you're a startup, you've got, I don't know, 20, 30 staff or something and things are going well, and you are in full control of your destiny.
所以想象一下你是一家初创公司，你有，我不知道，20、30 名员工什么的，一切进展顺利，你完全掌控自己的命运。
And then a company buys you to accelerate you, but then you stop owning all the decisions.
然后一家公司收购你来加速你的发展，但随后你就不再拥有所有决策权。
So the CEO, maybe you become a product person.
所以CEO，也许你会成为一个产品人。
The person who was running GTM but was also doing a bunch of product stuff, and was also doing a bunch of maybe engineering stuff, all of a sudden is just working in marketing.
那个负责 GTM 的人同时也在做一堆产品工作，也可能在做一些工程工作，突然之间就只从事营销工作了。
Tanguy Crusson: There are decisions that are made above your head.
Tanguy Crusson：有些决定是在你的头上做出的。
For example, portfolio fit, which should be part of your product, which is things that should be used from the platform that we've got.
例如，投资组合适合，这应该是你的产品的一部分，这是应该从我们拥有的平台使用的东西。
So there's a lot of decisions that we're able to make on the day-to-day basis, that start to escape you.
因此，我们每天可以做出很多决定，但你却开始忽视这些决定。
Big companies look much further out in the future.
大公司的未来看得更远。
So Atlassian would look at the long game.
因此 Atlassian 会着眼于长远发展。
And so I remember with Statuspage when they first joined, we asked about the roadmaps and they were like, well, for the next three months we're working on that and for the following three months we're thinking about potentially X, Y or Z.
所以我记得 Statuspage 当他们第一次加入时，我们询问了路线图，他们说，好吧，在接下来的三个月里我们正在研究这个问题，在接下来的三个月里我们正在考虑潜在的 X、Y 或 Z。
And so when we're like, "Okay, so what's the three-year plan?" They're like, "What do you mean the three-year plan?
所以当我们问“好吧，那么三年计划是什么？”他们会问，“你说的三年计划是什么意思？
I don't know, we'll survive, I guess." Which is what startups do.
我不知道，我想我们会活下来。”这就是初创公司所做的。
And they were very penciled ideas about the future, but not to the extent of what a big company would expect.
他们对未来有非常清晰的想法，但还没有达到大公司所期望的程度。
And so that's a really big culture shock.
所以这是一个非常大的文化冲击。
Tanguy Crusson: And what you end up with as well, and that's for companies who are looking to get acquired out there or buying other companies, before, you had a startup and everyone was one team, depending on how the buying company is organized, you might land with silos from within your team.
Tanguy Crusson：最终的结果也是如此，对于那些希望被收购或收购其他公司的公司来说，之前，你有一家初创公司，每个人都是一个团队，这取决于收购公司的组织方式，你可能会在团队内部出现孤岛。
So the way Atlassian is organized is like many Atlassian companies, we've got a product organization, we've got an engineering organization, we've got a marketing organization, design organization, and they each roll up to a different leader which may then roll up to the same person, but still by and large different organizations that are then assembled into squads and those squads operate together.
因此，Atlassian 的组织方式就像许多 Atlassian 公司一样，我们有一个产品组织，我们有一个工程组织，我们有一个营销组织，设计组织，他们各自归结为不同的领导者，然后可能归结为同一个人，但总的来说仍然是不同的组织，然后组装成小队，这些小队一起运作。
But there are rituals that are part of the squad and there are rituals that ladder up to where you are in terms of craft.
但有些仪式是小队的一部分，有些仪式会提升你的技术水平。
So I do remember how daunting it was for the Statuspage team when they joined, to understand how to navigate that.
所以我确实记得 Statuspage 团队加入时，了解如何驾驭它是多么令人畏惧。
Tanguy Crusson: If I want to hire a new designer, I'm not talking to the Statuspage CEO anymore, I need to talk to the head of design for this area, which has pretty much nothing to do with the Statuspage business up until the acquisition.
Tanguy Crusson：如果我想雇用一名新设计师，我不再与 Statuspage 首席执行官交谈，我需要与该领域的设计主管交谈，在收购之前，这与 Statuspage 业务几乎没有任何关系。
So that is the things that people told me when I started working on the integration, which is, hey, remember, you don't know yet, but integrations are mostly about people.
这就是当我开始从事集成工作时人们告诉我的事情，那就是，嘿，记住，你还不知道，但集成主要与人有关。
They're not about technology as much or product vision.
它们与技术或产品愿景无关。
All of that stuff is the easy stuff.
所有这些东西都是简单的东西。
The hard part is the people.
最困难的部分是人。
And I didn't quite understand at first and then I really got it by the end of it.
一开始我不太明白，后来我真的明白了。
Tanguy Crusson: Because what we tell those companies is we can accelerate by buying, but in reality they are going to be faced with more internal processes around how they manage staff, performance reviews, this concept of engineering allocation, revenue forecasts, OKRs, long-term roadmaps, all that stuff comes in very new to them.
Tanguy Crusson：因为我们告诉这些公司我们可以通过购买来加速发展，但实际上他们将面临更多的内部流程，包括如何管理员工、绩效评估、工程分配概念、收入预测、OKR、长期路线图，所有这些对他们来说都是非常新鲜的。
So one part of the company top-down says, we bought you because you are successful, keep doing what you're doing.
因此公司的一位高层自上而下地表示，我们购买你是因为你很成功，继续做你正在做的事情。
While many other teams without meaning to, basically end up constantly interacting so that the right processes are followed, so that the right things are done.
虽然许多其他团队无意中这样做，但基本上最终会不断互动，以便遵循正确的流程，从而完成正确的事情。
Lenny Rachitsky: That's a really interesting point, that one group is keep doing what you're doing.
Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个非常有趣的观点，一个团队正在继续做你正在做的事情。
We're going to leave you alone, you're the experts.
我们不会打扰您，您是专家。
And then other people that are on the ground actually building it are like, "Hey, build with this component.
然后其他实际构建它的人会说，“嘿，用这个组件构建。
Hey, we need this process, we need this document."
嘿，我们需要这个过程，我们需要这份文件。”
Tanguy Crusson: And it's the things that you used to be able to focus 90% of your time working on your product, and all of a sudden all of that stuff may seem parasitical but comes in and interrupts you all the time.
Tanguy Crusson：过去你可以将 90% 的时间集中在产品上，但突然之间，所有这些东西可能看起来是寄生的，但却会不断出现并打扰你。
And often the new joiners, they don't know that they basically are not only being acquired, they've been hired by the company.
通常，新加入的员工并不知道自己不仅被公司收购，而且还被公司聘用。
So they basically are joining a different company with different sets of rituals, with a different culture.
所以他们基本上是加入了一家不同的公司，有不同的仪式，有不同的文化。
All of that is very different, basically.
基本上，所有这些都非常不同。
It's not going to be the same for every acquisition.
每次收购的情况都不会相同。
Like I said, we had some acquisitions that were great.
就像我说的，我们进行了一些很棒的收购。
Statuspage ended up being a huge success inside Atlassian, but when I was there, I basically worked through the difficult parts of it, where I was like, "It's not as simple as people may think." So one warning, if you're planning to do acquisitions, make sure you factor all of that in and think about the integration plans to compensate for these aspects.
Statuspage 最终在 Atlassian 内部取得了巨大成功，但当我在那里时，我基本上解决了其中的困难部分，我当时想，“这并不像人们想象的那么简单。”因此，需要警告的是，如果您打算进行收购，请确保将所有这些因素都考虑在内，并考虑整合计划以弥补这些方面的不足。
So you don't expect the business to join and keep running at exactly the same pace, because going to be a big slowdown before it accelerates again.
因此，您不会期望企业加入并保持以完全相同的速度运行，因为在再次加速之前会出现大幅放缓。
Lenny Rachitsky: So maybe as a last question here, is just say you were to do an acquisition again and I don't know if you've gone through more, what's one thing you would change?
Lenny Rachitsky：所以也许最后一个问题是，你要再次进行收购，我不知道你是否经历过更多收购，你会改变什么？
What's one thing you'd recommend of let's make sure to do this thing very differently?
您建议我们确保以完全不同的方式做这件事的一件事是什么？
Tanguy Crusson: One aspect that I'm going to talk about to then go there, but one aspect we didn't talk about which is we bought a product, how does that product fit with the rest?
Tanguy Crusson：我要谈论的一个方面是然后去那里，但我们没有谈论的一个方面是我们购买了一种产品，该产品如何与其他产品相匹配？
And so we had different types of acquisitions that we did.
因此，我们进行了不同类型的收购。
One is we buy the company and we keep the product running and then we try to integrate it with our tech stack.
一是我们购买该公司并保持产品运行，然后尝试将其与我们的技术堆栈集成。
And then the other acquisition is we buy the company and then we kind of rebuild on our platform, or we buy with this huge synergy with our platform.
然后另一项收购是我们购买该公司，然后我们在我们的平台上进行重建，或者我们通过与我们的平台的巨大协同效应进行购买。
And so we call that the frankenstack, otherwise.
所以我们称之为弗兰肯堆栈，否则。
Which is, you get one tech stack here, one tech stack there and they can't quite talk to each other, identity is different, integrating is different.
也就是说，你在这里有一个技术堆栈，在那里有一个技术堆栈，它们不能完全相互交谈，身份不同，集成也不同。
And so it looks like a patchwork of products and that's not what our customers want from us.
因此，它看起来像是产品的拼凑而成，而这并不是我们的客户对我们的期望。
Tanguy Crusson: So the next time I try personally, I would treat it like hiring over treating it like buying business only.
Tanguy Crusson：因此，下次我亲自尝试时，我会将其视为招聘，而不是将其视为仅购买业务。
So there would be a huge component which is to both educate and tease out what it means to actually hire the team inside the company.
因此，其中一个重要的组成部分是教育和梳理在公司内部实际雇用团队意味着什么。
At the same time I'm saying that because I don't want to do a big one.
同时我这么说是因为我不想做一件大事。
The next one I want to do is relatively small.
我想做的下一个是比较小的。
Find a company that has amazing product that we can bring in as a tech-in, shut down the product, rebuild it on our platform and so it's basically the equivalent of an acqui-hire, because basically what we'll be buying is the acceleration of our roadmap.
找到一家拥有令人惊叹的产品的公司，我们可以将其作为技术引入，关闭该产品，在我们的平台上重建它，所以这基本上相当于收购雇用，因为基本上我们将购买的是我们路线图的加速。
Tanguy Crusson: We could try and form a team to do what they did, but they've been successful so they know what they're doing.
Tanguy Crusson：我们可以尝试组建一个团队来完成他们所做的事情，但他们已经取得了成功，因此他们知道自己在做什么。
We could probably get there one year faster.
我们可能可以更快地实现这一目标。
What does that mean for our revenue at the scale of Atlassian, if we can enter a market one year earlier?
如果我们能够提前一年进入市场，这对我们 Atlassian 规模的收入意味着什么？
It's probably going to pay the acquisition back on its own.
它可能会自己偿还收购费用。
So my learnings from it were basically that it needs to be treated like hiring and what I would like to do next time is more doing it like that, basically.
所以我从中学到的基本上是，它需要像招聘一样对待，而我下次想做的基本上就是这样做。
Lenny Rachitsky: What about in the case of HipChat, where it feels like it was a mistake to rebuild a thing.
Lenny Rachitsky：HipChat 的情况怎么样，感觉重建一个东西是一个错误。
Is there for this kind of startup, don't rebuild for this kind of startup?
有没有针对这种启动的情况，不针对这种启动进行重建？
Start again.
重新开始。
Do you have a thought of how you separate those two?
你有想过如何区分这两者吗？
Tanguy Crusson: There's actually a big difference.
Tanguy Crusson：实际上有很大的区别。
There's a big difference.
有很大的不同。
Which is in one case what you try to do is....
在一种情况下，您尝试做的是......
So when you rebuild, you've got a successful business, you've got hundreds of thousands of customers, for example, and you're trying to rebuild the same thing or a different thing, but for the same customers that have got expectations about your current product.
因此，当你重建时，你已经拥有了一家成功的企业，例如，你已经拥有了数十万客户，并且你正在尝试重建相同的东西或不同的东西，但对于那些对你当前产品有期望的相同客户。
In the other one is you buy a company that's got some traction, not too much, so you can shut down the business and then rebuild on your platform to reach your customer base.
另一种是你买了一家有一定吸引力的公司，但不是太多，所以你可以关闭该业务，然后在你的平台上重建以覆盖你的客户群。
So it's not the same as trying to rebuild the plane mid flight, it's delaying takeoff.
所以这与试图在飞行中重建飞机不同，它推迟了起飞。
It's like, "Yeah, we did a trial run, the plane landed.
就像，“是的，我们进行了试运行，飞机降落了。
Okay, cool.
好吧，酷。
Switch to another plane, takeoff again."
换另一架飞机，再次起飞。”
Lenny Rachitsky: Got it.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：明白了。
I love that.
我喜欢那个。
Any other key insights and lessons from this experience before we get to your product discovery?
在我们开始发现您的产品之前，还有其他重要的见解和经验教训吗？
Tanguy Crusson: One last one and then I'm going to stop with the therapy session, thank you very much for offering.
Tanguy Crusson：最后一个，然后我将停止治疗课程，非常感谢您的提供。
Lenny Rachitsky: No, no, we got to keep it going.
Lenny Rachitsky：不，不，我们必须继续下去。
I got to rack up the bill on this therapy session.
我得结清这次治疗的费用。
Tanguy Crusson: Which is, remember I mentioned I was working on a business case for...
Tanguy Crusson：记住我提到过我正在为……做一个商业案例。
Basically going bigger in IT operations.
基本上是在 IT 运营方面做得更大。
And so there was as Statuspage as part of it, but there was a lot of stuff that I wanted to be able to do inside Jira and a whole bunch of other products to basically go big in that area, IT operations, before Jira service management, which is a very successful product we've got around that.
因此，Statuspage 是其中的一部分，但我希望能够在 Jira 和一大堆其他产品内部做很多事情，以便基本上在该领域做大，IT 运营，然后是 Jira 服务管理，这是我们围绕这个问题开发的一个非常成功的产品。
Before it was really entering that part of the market.
在它真正进入那部分市场之前。
Everyone was excited.
每个人都很兴奋。
It was before we had an incubator internally.
那是在我们内部建立孵化器之前。
And so I was trying to pitch it like let's build a new product that's centered around that thing.
所以我试图推销它，就像让我们围绕这个东西构建一个新产品一样。
It's on Jira and it integrates with these tools that we discussed and we can put in Statuspage there and that's actually how we could accelerate them as well, and so on and so forth.
它位于 Jira 上，它与我们讨论过的这些工具集成在一起，我们可以将其放入 Statuspage 中，这实际上也是我们加速它们的方式，等等。
Everyone was excited, thought it made sense, lots of encouragement.
大家都很兴奋，觉得很有道理，深受鼓舞。
I pitched it to every level of the organization from business leaders, to the CTO that we had at the time, to the CEOs.
我向组织的各个层面推销了它，从业务领导者到当时的首席技术官，再到首席执行官。
No one said no, no one said yes.
没有人说不，也没有人说是。
For months.
几个月来。
Tanguy Crusson: For months, I was in this limbo of, I think everyone's excited about this, everyone wants this to happen, but it's not happening.
Tanguy Crusson：几个月来，我一直处于这种不确定的状态，我想每个人都对此感到兴奋，每个人都希望这发生，但它没有发生。
And so I remember talking with my boss at the time going, what's going on?
所以我记得当时和我的老板谈话，发生了什么事？
When do I stop pushing?
我什么时候停止推动？
Because at some point I'm sure I'm going to start pissing people off.
因为在某些时候我确信我会开始惹恼别人。
And he was like, "Well, basically when you lose the passion for it.
他说：“好吧，基本上当你失去了对它的热情时。
Keep going up until you feel like it's not worth pushing anymore." And I remember looking at this advice and going, wow, that was not helpful at all, based on the situation that I was in.
继续向上，直到你觉得不再值得推动为止。”我记得看到这个建议后，哇，根据我所处的情况，这根本没有帮助。
But basically at some point I basically gave up.
但基本上在某个时候我基本上放弃了。
What happens though, and I understood that after because the company ended up going there just a year later, was that I misread the appetite and sense of urgency around that topic and the fact that Atlassian being Atlassian, we invest in so many markets, we have many opportunities like this that sit on a shelf.
但后来发生的事情，我明白了，因为该公司仅仅一年后就去了那里，我误读了围绕该主题的兴趣和紧迫感，以及 Atlassian 就是 Atlassian 的事实，我们投资了如此多的市场，我们有很多这样的机会被搁置。
Tanguy Crusson: Someone did the analysis, someone created a business case, that thing makes sense.
Tanguy Crusson：有人进行了分析，有人创建了商业案例，这很有意义。
There may not be a trigger for the why now.
现在可能没有触发原因。
So we need a very strong trigger for why now to go after it.
因此，我们需要一个非常强大的触发因素来解释为什么现在要追求它。
And I did not do a good enough job at articulating this.
我在阐明这一点方面做得不够好。
Why now?
为什么是现在？
Why do we have to do this now versus in a year's time, in two years time?
为什么我们必须现在就这样做，而不是一年后、两年后？
And the next team that came in afterwards did a much better job at that.
随后加入的下一个团队在这方面做得更好。
But for me, that was a great learning, which is great work can get parked and .
但对我来说，这是一次很棒的学习，这是很棒的工作可以停下来。
And yeah, that's just what happens, which is because we have so many opportunities and there's many companies out there that are probably faced with that, doesn't mean that we have to go after all of them.
是的，这就是发生的事情，这是因为我们有很多机会，而且有很多公司可能面临着这种情况，但这并不意味着我们必须追求所有这些机会。
But it does make sense to explore them, and then decide when to pull the trigger, and that rationale for the sense of urgency needs to be there.
但探索它们，然后决定何时扣动扳机确实有意义，并且需要有紧迫感的理由。
It needs to be beautiful to the business days.
它需要在工作日保持美丽。
Lenny Rachitsky: This reminds me of my chat with Mihika, who does similar work at Figma where she works a lot of zero to one stuff.
Lenny Rachitsky：这让我想起了我与 Mihika 的聊天，她在 Figma 从事类似的工作，在那里她从事很多从零到一的工作。
And she described it as your job is to keep the flame alive and help it spread throughout the entire business if you're trying to get everyone on board with a new idea.
她将其描述为，如果你想让每个人都接受一个新想法，你的工作就是让火焰保持活力，并帮助它在整个企业中传播。
And I like this very tactical piece of advice you're sharing here of how to do that, is make it clear why this is....
我喜欢你在这里分享的这个非常战术性的建议，关于如何做到这一点，就是弄清楚为什么这是......
I think of it as why is it perishable?
我认为它为什么会腐烂？
Why is this opportunity perishable?
为什么这个机会会消失？
Why is it going to disappear if we don't act on it now?
如果我们现在不采取行动，它为什么会消失呢？
And you could think of it as why do we have to do this now?
您可以将其视为我们为什么现在必须这样做？
It's not just like "This is a huge opportunity." But we also need to do it right now to give people motivation.
这不仅仅是“这是一个巨大的机会”。但我们现在也需要这样做，以激励人们。
Tanguy Crusson: Yeah, that was a huge learning for me.
Tanguy Crusson：是的，这对我来说是一个巨大的学习。
I wasted months on it, but like with every failure, learnings came out of it in the painful way.
我在这上面浪费了几个月的时间，但就像每一次失败一样，我也以痛苦的方式从中吸取了教训。
So product managers are often biased towards action, or at least that's my case.
所以产品经理往往偏向于行动，或者至少我是这样。
I want to go and do stuff and build stuff, and try stuff with customers.
我想去做一些事情，建造一些东西，并与客户一起尝试一些东西。
And so being idle, waiting for a confirmation is not a great spot to be, but sometimes you need to recognize when you're there and it's good to step back.
因此，无所事事、等待确认并不是一个好主意，但有时您需要意识到自己何时在那里，最好退后一步。
Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by Coda and I mean that literally.
Lenny Rachitsky：这一集是由 Coda 为您带来的，我的意思是字面上的意思。
I use Coda every day to help me plan each episode of this very podcast.
我每天都使用 Coda 来帮助我计划这个播客的每一集。
It's where I keep my content calendar, my guest research, and also the questions that I plan to ask each guest.
这是我保存内容日历、客人研究以及我计划向每位客人询问的问题的地方。
Also, during the recording itself, I have a Coda page up to remind myself what I want to talk about.
另外，在录音过程中，我会打开一个 Coda 页面来提醒自己要谈论什么。
Coda is an all-in-one platform that combines the best of documents, spreadsheets, and apps to help you and your team get more done.
Coda 是一个一体化平台，结合了最好的文档、电子表格和应用程序，可帮助您和您的团队完成更多工作。
Now is the perfect time to get started with Coda, especially its extensive planning capabilities.
现在是开始使用 Coda 的最佳时机，尤其是它广泛的规划功能。
With Coda, you can stay aligned and ship faster by managing your planning cycles in one location.
借助 Coda，您可以通过在一个地点管理您的计划周期来保持一致并加快发货速度。
You can set and measure OKRs with full visibility across teams and stakeholders.
您可以设置和衡量 OKR，并在团队和利益相关者之间具有完全可见性。
You can map dependencies, create progress visualizations, and identify risk areas.
您可以映射依赖关系、创建进度可视化并识别风险区域。
Plus you can access hundreds of pressure-tested templates for everything from roadmap strategy to final decision-making, to PRDs.
此外，您还可以访问数百个经过压力测试的模板，涵盖从路线图策略到最终决策再到 PRD 的所有内容。
Lenny Rachitsky: If you want a platform that empowers your team to strategize, plan and track goals together, you can get started with Coda today for free.
Lenny Rachitsky：如果您想要一个平台，让您的团队能够共同制定战略、计划和跟踪目标，那么您今天就可以免费开始使用 Coda。
And if you want to see for yourself why product teams at high-growth companies like Pinterest, Figma and Qualtrics run on Coda, take advantage of the special limited-time offer just for startups.
如果您想亲自了解为什么 Pinterest、Figma 和 Qualtrics 等高增长公司的产品团队在 Coda 上运行，请利用专为初创公司提供的特殊限时优惠。
Head over to coda.io/lenny to sign up and get $1,000 in credit.
前往 coda.io/lenny 注册并获得 1,000 美元的积分。
That's C- O-D-A.io/lenny, to sign up and get $1,000 in credit.
这就是 C-O-D-A.io/lenny，注册即可获得 1,000 美元的积分。
Coda.io/lenny.
Coda.io/lenny。
Lenny Rachitsky: Let's try to summarize some of the biggest lessons so far that you've shared before we get to product discovery.
Lenny Rachitsky：在我们开始产品发现之前，让我们尝试总结一下迄今为止您所分享的一些最重要的经验教训。
So a few things I noted here, just how to be successful, building zero to one at a large company.
所以我在这里提到了一些事情，就是如何在一家大公司取得成功，从零到一。
One is be very clear, are the users you're going to be building this new product to actually the same users you're already selling to?
需要非常明确的是，您要开发此新产品的用户实际上是您已经向其销售的用户吗？
And it may feel like they are close enough, but in the case of HipChat, you learned maybe not, and it's a lot harder than you expected.
可能感觉它们已经足够接近了，但就 HipChat 而言，你可能没有学到，而且这比你预期的要困难得多。
Lenny Rachitsky: Two is be careful when you rewrite.
Lenny Rachitsky：二是重写时要小心。
In some cases, shut it down, rewrite it immediately, accelerate this new idea internally.
在某些情况下，关闭它，立即重写它，在内部加速这个新想法。
In other cases and you shared, and so you could rewind if you want to get the actual details of when it makes sense to go one or the other.
在其他情况下，您也分享了，所以如果您想了解何时有意义的实际细节，您可以倒带。
Sometimes doesn't make sense to rewrite, just keep what you're doing and focus on the user problems and don't slow down.
有时重写是没有意义的，只要保持你正在做的事情并专注于用户问题，不要放慢速度。
Another tip I wrote down is ignore the competition.
我写下的另一个技巧是忽略竞争。
Don't be obsessed with what they're doing.
不要沉迷于他们正在做的事情。
Focus on what your users are asking you for.
专注于用户的要求。
And then this idea of paying attention to the why now, that's a really good one.
然后这种关注“为什么”的想法现在就非常好。
Just like when you're trying to make a case, make it clear why it has to happen now.
就像当你试图提出一个案例时，要弄清楚为什么它必须现在发生。
Is there anything else that comes to mind as I try to summarize some of the advice so far?
当我尝试总结迄今为止的一些建议时，我还想到了什么吗？
Tanguy Crusson: No, that seems like a good one.
Tanguy Crusson：不，这看起来不错。
The main one I'm getting also out of this, is if you try to start new things, it's going to be coming from your drive and your passion, and that's what pushes stuff forward.
我从中得到的主要收获是，如果你尝试开始新事物，它将来自你的动力和热情，这就是推动事情前进的动力。
So don't give up.
所以不要放弃。
Because I try really hard before getting to one that worked.
因为在找到一个有效的方法之前我真的很努力。
So I guess that's probably a testament for it's possible.
所以我想这可能证明了它是可能的。
Lenny Rachitsky: And a testament to your grit and desire to make something work.
Lenny Rachitsky：这证明了你的勇气和让事情成功的愿望。
So on that note, let's talk about your product discovery.
因此，我们来谈谈您的产品发现。
I know this is a success at this point.
我知道此时此刻这是成功的。
I know there was also a lot of pain that went into this and things that didn't work.
我知道这也带来了很多痛苦以及一些不起作用的事情。
So I'd love to hear both sides of it, just like what was hard about getting this off the ground and then also just what worked, what allowed you to make this work?
所以我很想听听双方的意见，就像让这个项目落地的困难是什么，以及什么是有效的，是什么让你能够完成这项工作？
So start wherever you want to start.
所以从你想开始的地方开始。
Tanguy Crusson: Yeah, cool.
唐吉·克鲁森：是的，很酷。
So let's start with the good stuff before we go back into therapy.
因此，在我们重新开始治疗之前，让我们先从好的方面开始。
Some of the good stuff here is Atlassian at that point had recognized we are innovating in our big successful products all by doing acquisitions, we have to correct that and start building new products ourselves as well.
这里的一些好东西是 Atlassian 那时已经认识到我们正在通过收购来创新我们的大型成功产品，我们必须纠正这一点并开始自己构建新产品。
And so there was a huge push from the founders to go, "Hey, we need to restart that." Out of it came Point A, which was an internal incubator program that was meant to fix that.
因此，创始人大力推动，“嘿，我们需要重新启动。”由此诞生了 A 点，这是一个旨在解决这个问题的内部孵化器计划。
And the way they framed it was that innovation is like a muscle.
他们的表述方式是创新就像肌肉。
Unless you exercise it, it becomes weak, and what we have to do now is to work on it again.
如果你不锻炼它，它就会变弱，我们现在要做的就是重新努力。
And so out of that thing, Point A and Jira Product Discovery was one of the...
因此，Point A 和 Jira Product Discovery 是其中之一……
I think it was one of the 100 pitches that went through that innovation program.
我认为这是通过该创新计划的 100 个提案之一。
There were 100 pitches and out of it came out three products that basically went through all the different stages of it.
经过 100 次推介，最终产生了三种产品，基本上经历了所有不同的阶段。
And so it started with Jira Product Discovery was actually made possible because of that and because we're inside Atlassian.
因此，从 Jira Product Discovery 开始，实际上正是因为这个原因，并且因为我们在 Atlassian 内部，所以它才成为可能。
So we started with a lot of, I could take time to focus on this stuff with nothing else to do it.
所以我们从很多事情开始，我可以花时间专注于这些事情，而没有其他事情可做。
It was a full-time job, because of this incubator.
因为这个孵化器，这是一份全职工作。
I was able to form a team easier because there was budget allocated.
由于分配了预算，我能够更轻松地组建团队。
I was able to form a team that was not worried about losing their job because the program was made so that technically speaking, you would borrow people from other departments.
我能够组建一个不担心失去工作的团队，因为该计划的制定是为了从技术上讲，你可以从其他部门借用人员。
If that thing doesn't work out, they go back to your department.
如果事情不成功，他们就会回到你的部门。
So there's no fear of losing your job, basically.
所以基本上不用担心失去工作。
Tanguy Crusson: We were able to tap into all the research that was done by our research and insights team internally.
Tanguy Crusson：我们能够利用我们的研究和洞察团队内部完成的所有研究。
We were able to have the corporate development team working with us.
我们能够让企业开发团队与我们合作。
I met with probably 20 companies that played in things around product management before forming a view that, hey, maybe we should play there.
我会见了大约 20 家从事产品管理业务的公司，然后形成了这样的观点：嘿，也许我们应该涉足产品管理领域。
And all those teams are willing to talk to us because Atlassian is a big player in this market.
所有这些团队都愿意与我们交谈，因为 Atlassian 是这个市场的重要参与者。
And so there's always the opportunity of integrating, being bought, partnering that can...
因此，总有整合、被收购、合作的机会……
Tanguy Crusson: The opportunity of integrating, being bought, partnering, that kind of stuff.
Tanguy Crusson：整合、被收购、合作等的机会。
I was able to meet with analysts to say, "Hey, so what do you think about the product management market?"
我能够与分析师见面并询问他们：“嘿，那么您对产品管理市场有何看法？”
Lenny Rachitsky: This was all part of the Point A structure?
Lenny Rachitsky：这都是 A 点结构的一部分？
Tanguy Crusson: So the Point A structure, not all of it was formalized in Point A, remember Point A back then was created alongside the first bets that went through it, and ours was one bet as part of that.
Tanguy Crusson：所以 A 点结构，并不是所有的结构都在 A 点中正式化，记住 A 点当时是与经过它的第一个投注一起创建的，而我们的投注是其中的一部分。
So we forged the path for all the ones that came afterwards.
所以我们为后来的所有人开辟了道路。
But basically, it gave us the crags to go in and ask for help from everyone, and everyone knew it was important.
但基本上，它让我们有机会进去向每个人寻求帮助，每个人都知道这很重要。
Because everyone knew the company priorities and the new products were top company priority.
因为每个人都知道公司的首要任务，而新产品是公司的首要任务。
And so Atlassian, playing the long game, had decided that it was okay to invest in these bets and to reassess them into every three to six months to understand whether we should put more chips in it.
因此，Atlassian 从长远来看，决定投资这些赌注，并每三到六个月重新评估一次，以了解我们是否应该投入更多筹码。
Tanguy Crusson: And so the psychological safety of everyone's job was safe, coupled with access to all the resources from the company.
Tanguy Crusson：因此，每个人的工作心理安全都是安全的，而且可以使用公司的所有资源。
That part was just invaluable to the success of what JPD is today.
这对于 JPD 今天的成功来说是无价的。
Tanguy Crusson: So to give you a bit of context, Jira Product Discovery started four years ago with some research.
Tanguy Crusson：为了给您提供一些背景信息，Jira Product Discovery 四年前开始进行一些研究。
I was alone back then, and then we were three.
那时我一个人，后来我们就三个人了。
The first line of code was written three years before we launched officially, as generally available.
第一行代码是在我们正式发布之前三年编写的，通常可用。
Which means that for three years we were dogfooding alpha or beta and able to do that with the full support of the company.
这意味着三年来我们一直在测试 alpha 或 beta，并且能够在公司的全力支持下做到这一点。
So when I mention the long game, I mean it.
所以当我提到长期游戏时，我是认真的。
It's something that's very hard to get in most companies out there.
这是大多数公司都很难获得的东西。
Tanguy Crusson: And when people ask me about how to stop incubators, it's like think about it with when you're going to get your dollars back and forget about it for a while.
Tanguy Crusson：当人们问我如何停止孵化器时，我就像想一下，当你要拿回你的钱时，暂时忘记它。
What you need to see is how the teams are answering the right questions that they ask along the way, and seeing whether you are still excited about the bets as they do that.
您需要看到的是团队如何回答他们一路上提出的正确问题，并看看您是否仍然对他们这样做的赌注感到兴奋。
Tanguy Crusson: Anyway, so we launched a year ago.
Tanguy Crusson：无论如何，我们一年前就推出了。
Fast-forward to today, we've got 8,000 customers, amazing CSAT, great traction.
快进到今天，我们已经拥有 8,000 名客户、令人惊叹的 CSAT 和巨大的吸引力。
It's one of the fastest growing products in Atlassian history, which is great.
它是 Atlassian 历史上增长最快的产品之一，这非常棒。
So what was hard though, the first one was reminding everyone that failure is the most likely outcome.
所以困难的是，第一个是提醒每个人失败是最有可能的结果。
And I will die on that hill to explain to people when they want to stop things internally, frame it like that, remind everyone.
当人们想在内部阻止事情发生时，我会死在那座山上，向他们解释，像这样框框，提醒每个人。
There's a 70% chance, completely pulled out of thin air that whatever you're working on is not going to exist in six months.
有 70% 的可能性，完全凭空而来，无论你正在做的事情在六个月内都不会存在。
Tanguy Crusson: We're trying to launch a new product, enter a new market.
Tanguy Crusson：我们正在尝试推出新产品，进入新市场。
Our goal is to get to $100 million businesses.
我们的目标是实现价值 1 亿美元的业务。
So there's not that many of them out there.
所以那里的人并不多。
We have tried and we have failed.
我们尝试过，但失败了。
And a few of them are Atlassian.
其中一些是 Atlassian 的。
And so remember that, and it's super important to remember that because otherwise the company has a tendency to over invest, not the company top-down, parts of the company have the tendency to come and try to help.
因此请记住这一点，并且非常重要的是要记住，否则公司就会倾向于过度投资，而不是公司自上而下，公司的某些部分就会倾向于提供帮助。
Tanguy Crusson: So for example, "Here, we want to build this." "Oh, if you want we could change this service to be able to XYZ for you." "No, we are a bet, which is seven people.
Tanguy Crusson：举个例子，“我们想在这里建造这个。” “哦，如果您愿意，我们可以更改此服务，以便能够为您提供 XYZ。” “不，我们是一个赌注，是七个人。
Let's not drag the rest of the company into it.
我们不要把公司的其他人也拖进去。
The appetite that the company has right now is these seven people.
公司现在的胃口就是这七个人。
We'll see what we can do with these seven people," was what I was telling everyone.
我们会看看我们能对这七个人做些什么，”这是我告诉大家的。
Tanguy Crusson: The reason I was saying that is that, otherwise, yes, you get the help, but the help always comes with condition and the condition is usually things slow down.
Tanguy Crusson：我这么说的原因是，否则，是的，你会得到帮助，但帮助总是有条件的，而条件通常是事情变慢。
So what we try to do is remind everyone, things are going to fail, so that we could basically buy the opportunity to hack shit together that is not going to scale, that is not going to respect our design guidelines, that is not going to fit with the JIRA target architecture.
因此，我们试图做的是提醒每个人，事情将会失败，这样我们基本上就可以购买机会将无法扩展的东西组合在一起，这不会尊重我们的设计准则，也不会符合 JIRA 目标架构。
But we're going to test this with customers and see if the concepts make sense, if the prototypes make sense, whether they get value out of those before we tell you, "Hey, you know what?
但我们将与客户一起测试这一点，看看这些概念是否有意义，原型是否有意义，它们是否能从中获得价值，然后我们告诉你，“嘿，你知道吗？
That thing is a thing and by the way, now we're a proper business.
那件事就是一件事，顺便说一句，现在我们是一家正常的企业。
We should build that thing into the platform."
我们应该将这个东西构建到平台中。”
Lenny Rachitsky: This is really interesting because it's counterintuitive to think that you should position your new bets as, this is most likely going to fail.
Lenny Rachitsky：这真的很有趣，因为认为你应该将新的赌注定位为这很可能会失败，这是违反直觉的。
This is just the thing we're trying, don't worry, don't commit too much this yet, don't worry about giving us all these resources.
这只是我们正在尝试的事情，别担心，还不要承诺太多，别担心为我们提供所有这些资源。
Why do you think that's so important?
为什么你认为这如此重要？
Because I don't think most companies position new incubations that way.
因为我认为大多数公司不会以这种方式定位新的孵化项目。
Why do you think that's so effective and more effective?
为什么您认为这如此有效且更加有效？
Tanguy Crusson: Yeah.
唐吉·克鲁森：是的。
So the thing that we're trying to do when starting new products is to basically emulate a startup in an environment that is not hungry, is not starving.
因此，我们在推出新产品时试图做的事情就是基本上模仿一家在不饥饿的环境中的初创公司。
And so you need to create scarcity.
所以你需要创造稀缺性。
What I wanted with my team is to make sure that they feel the urgency.
我希望我的团队能够确保他们感受到紧迫感。
That thing needs to move.
那东西需要移动。
I also needed the rest of the company to go away, so we could get the autonomy to test the things that we needed to know whether this thing is even going to work or not.
我还需要公司的其他人离开，这样我们就可以获得自主权来测试我们需要知道的东西是否会起作用。
Tanguy Crusson: We could not go into a planning session for the next six months to negotiate something with a platform service so we can build a feature to then test with users.
Tanguy Crusson：我们无法在接下来的六个月内进行规划会议来与平台服务进行协商，以便我们可以构建一个功能然后与用户进行测试。
I said, "Now, we're rebuilding this component and we're testing this with customers next week.
我说：“现在，我们正在重建这个组件，下周我们将与客户一起进行测试。
It's not perfect.
它并不完美。
It's not perfect." And so that helped us a lot, but otherwise there's always this tendency of the process that works for everything else is going to work for this and we do need to keep reminding them, "Hey, we might not exist in six months.
这并不完美。”所以这对我们帮助很大，但除此之外，总会有一种对其他一切都有效的过程的趋势也会对这个有效，我们确实需要不断提醒他们，“嘿，我们可能在六个月内就不存在了。
Do you really care that much about this process right now?
您现在真的那么关心这个过程吗？
The product might not exist anymore." The process goes away usually.
该产品可能不再存在。”该过程通常会消失。
Lenny Rachitsky: So it's basically a trick to keep everyone else within the org away and not worry about what you're building?
Lenny Rachitsky：所以这基本上是一个技巧，让组织内的其他人远离你，而不用担心你正在构建的东西？
Because you just tell them, "Don't worry, this is not going to work out.
因为你只是告诉他们，“别担心，这不会成功。
We're just going to try this thing just to see." So it's not for your team to feel like, "This is probably not going to work out." I imagine the team is like, "Oh, we got to make this work.
我们只是想尝试一下看看。”因此，您的团队不会觉得“这可能不会成功”。我想象团队会说：“哦，我们必须让这项工作成功。
It's such a good idea." It's more as a trick to keep the org from swallowing you up and pushing you around?
这是个好主意。”这更像是一个防止组织吞噬你并摆布你的诡计？
Tanguy Crusson: So there's a part of that, but there's also really a need from...
Tanguy Crusson：所以这是其中的一部分，但也确实需要......
We need to respect Atlassian's dollars here, and if we don't know whether this thing is going to work...
我们需要尊重 Atlassian 的资金，如果我们不知道这个东西是否会起作用......
I do not want to drag a team of 50 people into this.
我不想把一个 50 人的团队拖进去。
I want to know that this thing is worth the investment of a team of 50 people.
我想知道这个东西值得50人的团队投资。
So it's a bit of both, actually.
所以实际上两者兼而有之。
Now, it's of course, easier said than done.
当然，现在说起来容易做起来难。
And so that's where, again, Point A helped.
这就是 A 点再次发挥作用的地方。
We had four stages called Wonder, Explore, Make and Impact, where in the first stage it was all about proving that there was a problem area we could go into, there was a market.
我们有四个阶段，分别是“奇迹”、“探索”、“创造”和“影响”，在第一阶段，一切都是为了证明有一个我们可以进入的问题领域，有一个市场。
Tanguy Crusson: We could answer very clearly, articulate why Atlassian should move there.
Tanguy Crusson：我们可以非常清楚地回答，阐明为什么 Atlassian 应该搬到那里。
We could articulate why now that stuff that struggled with before, and have enough data to validate all those claims.
我们可以清楚地阐明为什么现在那些以前遇到困难的东西，并且有足够的数据来验证所有这些主张。
Explore was about exploring solutions, which doesn't mean build it and throw it out there and see what sticks.
探索是关于探索解决方案，这并不意味着构建它然后将其扔在那里，看看什么能坚持下去。
It's about if you get a bunch of customers raising a problem, can you get them to play back to the solution, address that problem?
这是关于如果你有一群客户提出问题，你能让他们回顾解决方案并解决这个问题吗？
Tanguy Crusson: And so in the case of Jira Product Discovery, because we were not building, we didn't need any new technology, it was mainly new UX and new workflows, we basically validated a lot of that with Figma in dozens of Zooms.
Tanguy Crusson：就 Jira 产品发现而言，因为我们不是在构建，所以不需要任何新技术，主要是新的 UX 和新的工作流程，我们基本上使用 Figma 在数十次 Zoom 中验证了很多内容。
But it's basically coming back saying, "Here's how those companies are framing it.
但它基本上会回来说：“这就是这些公司的框架。
Here's their problems, here's how this thing would be solving it for them."
这是他们的问题，这就是这个东西如何为他们解决问题。”
Tanguy Crusson: So that's part of Explore, which is validating that it's worth investing in in terms of solution.
Tanguy Crusson：这是 Explore 的一部分，它正在验证它在解决方案方面值得投资。
We don't only have the right problem, we've got the right solutions.
我们不仅有正确的问题，而且有正确的解决方案。
Then Make is about making it happen in stages, starting with an alpha, then a beta, and then going out there.
然后 Make 就是让它分阶段发生，从 alpha 开始，然后是 beta，然后再出去。
And Impact is that stuff is actually ready to go .
影响是那些东西实际上已经准备好了。
And now let's see the impact it has on Atlassian's business and keep monitoring it from there.
现在让我们看看它对 Atlassian 业务的影响，并从那里继续监控它。
Tanguy Crusson: And it turns into a real business from that point onwards.
Tanguy Crusson：从那时起，它就变成了一项真正的业务。
But everyone at Atlassian knew these four stages, Wonder, Explore, Make, Impact.
但 Atlassian 的每个人都知道这四个阶段：奇迹、探索、创造、影响。
Whenever we were talking with teams, we were telling them we're currently in Explore.
每当我们与团队交谈时，我们都会告诉他们我们目前处于探索阶段。
And we started doing that with the full bet itself.
我们开始用全额投注本身来做到这一点。
Then we started doing that to talk about the different features that we were working on or problem areas we were going after.
然后我们开始这样做是为了讨论我们正在研究的不同功能或我们正在解决的问题领域。
Which means that now every time we go into conversation with other teams and we'll mention, "We're in Wonder," or, "We're in Explore," they know what to expect.
这意味着现在每次我们与其他团队交谈时，我们都会提到“我们处于好奇之中”或“我们处于探索之中”，他们知道会发生什么。
When we go to someone in the leadership team and we say, "We want to go from Explore to Make," they know they're going to because they need developers now.
当我们去找领导团队中的某个人说“我们想从探索转向制造”时，他们知道他们会这么做，因为他们现在需要开发人员。
Tanguy Crusson: So all that vocabulary and clear expectations set for every stage of the process really helped us to facilitate all the conversations that we had with everyone in the organization.
Tanguy Crusson：因此，为流程的每个阶段设定的所有词汇和明确的期望确实帮助我们促进了与组织中每个人的所有对话。
And really protected us again from all those, basically, teams that felt like they had to chime in.
并真正再次保护我们免受所有那些感觉他们必须插话的团队的侵害。
Now, we're in Explore, we don't have anything ready that's been validated.
现在，我们处于探索阶段，我们还没有准备好任何经过验证的东西。
Let's not have opinions about how the architecture is done before we have validated that customers want something.
在确认客户想要某些东西之前，我们不要对架构的实现方式发表意见。
Lenny Rachitsky: This is super cool.
Lenny Rachitsky：这太酷了。
I feel like we could do a whole podcast just on the structure of Point A and how you all do this.
我觉得我们可以就 A 点的结构以及你们如何做到这一点做一个完整的播客。
But just one question, what does the gate look like when you move from Explore to Make, Make to Impact?
但只有一个问题，当你从探索转向制造、制造到影响时，大门会是什么样子？
Is there a group of people that sit in a room and decide thumbs up, thumbs down?
是否有一群人坐在一个房间里并决定竖起大拇指或竖起大拇指？
How does that decision work?
这个决定是如何运作的？
Tanguy Crusson: So we basically write a six pager that looks at all the different aspects of all the questions that we're going to answer.
Tanguy Crusson：所以我们基本上编写了一个六寻呼机，它着眼于我们要回答的所有问题的所有不同方面。
And then we are in a meeting with the Point A stakeholders and the founders of Atlassian.
然后我们正在与 A 点利益相关者和 Atlassian 的创始人开会。
And everyone reads that page for about 15 minutes and then question, answers, comments, and of that, by the end of this meeting, we know whether we are clear to go to the next stage.
每个人都会阅读该页面大约 15 分钟，然后提问、回答、评论，到会议结束时，我们知道我们是否清楚进入下一阶段。
Tanguy Crusson: We got booted back one time when we were like, "Hey, we're ready to go anywhere from alpha to beta as part of Make." And they're like, "No, you're not." And I was like, "No, we're not." And so we stayed and we basically got more time than what was initially allocated to us.
Tanguy Crusson：有一次我们被踢了回来，当时我们想，“嘿，作为 Make 的一部分，我们已经准备好从 alpha 到 beta 了。”他们说：“不，你不是。”我当时想，“不，我们不是。”所以我们留下来了，我们基本上得到了比最初分配给我们的时间更多的时间。
But basically, the founders and the leadership of Point A as well as heads from the different lines of businesses at Atlassian were participating in those sessions, which-
但基本上，Point A 的创始人和领导层以及 Atlassian 不同业务线的负责人都参加了这些会议，其中 -
Tanguy Crusson: Basically, visibility all the way up.
Tanguy Crusson：基本上，能见度一直在提高。
Lenny Rachitsky: And they might also just decide, "Let's kill this thing, it's not working," at one of these meetings.
Lenny Rachitsky：他们也可能在其中一次会议上决定，“让我们杀死这个东西，它不起作用”。
Tanguy Crusson: So it might be, "Let's kill this thing," which happened to a number of bets that we did, or it might be, "Let's roll this thing into something else." So for example, our new whiteboards product.
Tanguy Crusson：所以可能是，“让我们杀死这个东西”，这发生在我们所做的一些赌注中，或者可能是，“让我们把这个东西变成其他东西。”例如，我们的新白板产品。
I say product, whiteboards feature part of Confluence initially came out of Point A.
我说的是产品，Confluence的白板功能的一部分最初来自A点。
And was eventually rolled into Confluence instead because made more sense there.
最终被纳入 Confluence，因为在那里更有意义。
Lenny Rachitsky: That's so interesting.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：这太有趣了。
So you said there's 100 projects that went through Point A.
所以你说有 100 个项目经历了 A 点。
So there's this funnel.
于是就有了这个漏斗。
Is there a meeting for all 100 of these that the founders go to for all these incubations or did they come join later down the funnel?
创始人是否会参加所有 100 个人的会议来进行所有这些孵化，或者他们是后来才加入的？
Tanguy Crusson: And I'm saying 100, it's over a few different quarters of teams coming in and , but not for the initial stage of entering Point A.
Tanguy Crusson：我说的是 100，它涵盖了进入 A 点的几个不同季度的球队，但不是进入 A 点的初始阶段。
Tanguy Crusson: It's usually when they've been accepted.
Tanguy Crusson：通常是在他们被接受的时候。
Lenny Rachitsky: I interrupted you and took us on a tangent, you were sharing essentially the things that went well and how this all came together.
Lenny Rachitsky：我打断了你的话，让我们偏离了主题，你基本上分享了进展顺利的事情以及这一切是如何结合在一起的。
Tanguy Crusson: So failure as the most likely outcome.
Tanguy Crusson：所以失败是最有可能的结果。
It's the one thing I would stand behind in everything because I've seen before what happens when we get too complacent with it's going to work.
这是我在所有事情上都会支持的一件事，因为我以前见过当我们对它的效果过于自满时会发生什么。
Lessons from the previous things I was talking about.
我之前所说的事情的教训。
So this one really key.
所以这一点确实很关键。
Second one, this one is much harder, which is if you're starting something like this, your teams will need to break a lot of rules that are established.
第二个，这个要困难得多，如果你开始这样的事情，你的团队将需要打破很多既定的规则。
But they need to be able to do that without breaking the trust of everyone in the organization.
但他们需要能够在不破坏组织中每个人的信任的情况下做到这一点。
Tanguy Crusson: The rules were created to support the business at the stage where it was successful, and it just so happens that they might not work for new bets.
Tanguy Crusson：制定这些规则是为了在业务成功的阶段为业务提供支持，但碰巧它们可能不适用于新的赌注。
So the trick here for me has been to...
所以对我来说这里的诀窍是......
The way I pictured it is, I've got a bunch of chips.
正如我想象的那样，我有一堆筹码。
Since I joined my class, I've been accumulating chips and those chips are-
自从我加入班级以来，我一直在积累筹码，这些筹码是-
Tanguy Crusson: Yeah.
唐吉·克鲁森：是的。
It's like trust I've built with the founders, with the different business leaders, with succeeding on stuff or failing and explaining why and trying to do better next time.
这就像我与创始人、不同的商业领袖建立的信任，无论成功还是失败，都会解释原因，并努力下次做得更好。
And all that stuff gave me, like you said capital.
所有这些东西都给了我，就像你说的资本。
I've got these chips and I decided on this bet, "You know what, I'm going to go all in." So I always said, "If it works, it works.
我有这些筹码，我决定下注，“你知道吗，我要全力以赴。”所以我总是说：“如果有效，那就有效。
If it doesn't work, I'm probably out of here, but I'm going to go all in."
如果不起作用，我可能会离开这里，但我会全力以赴。”
Tanguy Crusson: So if I see something that's not going to work, I'm going to say it.
Tanguy Crusson：所以，如果我发现一些行不通的事情，我就会说出来。
We're not going to do it.
我们不会这么做。
And so I knew I was going to put myself in tough conversations because people are here to protect things that need to be protected.
所以我知道我会让自己陷入艰难的对话，因为人们来这里是为了保护需要保护的东西。
They just don't make sense for the stuff I was working on.
它们对我正在做的事情毫无意义。
So one example, breaking rules without breaking trust where it was tricky.
举个例子，在棘手的地方打破规则而不破坏信任。
Tanguy Crusson: We have a lot of rules in a company like Atlassian, and this is how it works in engineering.
Tanguy Crusson：像 Atlassian 这样的公司有很多规则，这就是它在工程中的运作方式。
I mean, engineers are the biggest part of our workforce.
我的意思是，工程师是我们劳动力中最大的一部分。
Basically, shit gets done because engineers work on it.
基本上，事情之所以能完成，是因为工程师们在努力。
And what I needed was to be able to hire the right team, only principal levels, people who have a lot of internal credits so that they can commit to any team's repo, no questions asked.
我需要的是能够雇用合适的团队，仅限主要级别，拥有大量内部信用的人员，以便他们可以毫无疑问地致力于任何团队的回购。
People who are not looking for the next promotion, but they want to make a splash.
那些不寻求下一次晋升，但又想引起轰动的人。
And when that's not possible, I wanted to be able to hire contractors to fill in the gaps and stuff like that.
当这不可能时，我希望能够雇用承包商来填补空白之类的东西。
And I was like, "A lot of the rules that I need to be able to break is basically in engineering." So I decided not to have an engineering leader in the team, and to do it myself.
我当时想，“我需要能够打破的很多规则基本上都是在工程领域。”所以我决定团队中不要有工程领导，而是自己来做。
Tanguy Crusson: So I was the product leader and the engineering leader.
Tanguy Crusson：所以我是产品负责人和工程负责人。
I was technical enough to be able to have these conversations, but mainly I was just working with amazing engineers who just could self-drive themselves.
我的技术水平足以进行这些对话，但主要是我只是与能够自动驾驶的出色工程师一起工作。
So they were able to make changes in areas that were not owned by them.
因此他们能够在不属于他们的领域做出改变。
They were able to do changes that do not respect any of our standards.
他们能够做出不尊重我们任何标准的改变。
They were able to hack their way around rebuilding services and whatnot.
他们能够破解重建服务之类的问题。
We are now not in the position where we need to do stuff like that, but at that time I needed to take a position like that so we could actually go and move fast with basically the equivalent of being a startup inside Atlassian.
我们现在并不需要做这样的事情，但当时我需要采取这样的立场，这样我们才能真正快速发展，基本上相当于在 Atlassian 内部成立一家初创公司。
Tanguy Crusson: That's not comfortable to do stuff like that.
Tanguy Crusson：做这样的事情并不舒服。
And I would not recommend that in many environments.
我不会在很多环境中推荐这样做。
Atlassian was very forgiving throughout the whole thing.
Atlassian 在整个过程中非常宽容。
It doesn't mean that I didn't on that.
这并不意味着我没有这么做。
Tanguy Crusson: That was not simple.
Tanguy Crusson：这并不简单。
For example, one of the rules is, at that time we didn't want to have a footprint in Europe back then for more engineering teams.
例如，其中一条规则是，当时我们不想让更多的工程团队在欧洲留下足迹。
It's different today, but back then it was like that.
今天不同了，但那时候也是这样。
I was like, "Shit.
我当时想，“妈的。
I'm based in France, I'm trying to start this stuff.
我住在法国，我正在尝试开始做这件事。
I don't want to move to the US or move back to Australia just for this right now." So I hired contractors, lots of contractors when we started, or not lots because we're not a big team, but contractors to build this stuff.
我现在不想仅仅为了这个而搬到美国或搬回澳大利亚。”所以我雇佣了承包商，在我们开始的时候雇佣了很多承包商，或者不是很多，因为我们不是一个大团队，而是建造这些东西的承包商。
Tanguy Crusson: And again, contractors, they don't fall into the same rules as the rest of engineering staff.
Tanguy Crusson：再说一遍，承包商，他们与其他工程人员不遵循相同的规则。
So basically, all the rules around you need to contribute to...
所以基本上，你周围的所有规则都需要做出贡献......
For example, the engineering team could say, " to the next, leadership could say, "You need to invest 15% of your time in reliability."
例如，工程团队可能会说，“接下来，领导层可能会说，”你需要在可靠性上投入 15% 的时间。
Tanguy Crusson: And for us it's like, "We're not there yet.
Tanguy Crusson：对我们来说，就像是，“我们还没有达到那个目标。
We don't even have a prototype out." Yeah.
我们甚至还没有原型。”是的。
But that's the company rule, all right.
但这是公司规定，好吧。
Again, no engineering manager and contractors, boom, none of these rules applied.
同样，没有工程经理和承包商，繁荣，这些规则都不适用。
So it was people who were looking at it from the outside who were like, "Wow, dude, are you sure you're okay with all this?" And it felt super uncomfortable, but we have the support of leadership from it.
所以那些从外面看这件事的人会说，“哇，伙计，你确定你能接受这一切吗？”这感觉非常不舒服，但我们得到了领导层的支持。
It's just a tough transition for Atlassian from the, "We only invest in the big ones for acquisitions," to "Let's invest in ."
对于 Atlassian 来说，从“我们只投资大型企业进行收购”到“让我们投资 .” 是一个艰难的转变。
Lenny Rachitsky: This is a crazy story you're telling me.
Lenny Rachitsky：你告诉我的这是一个疯狂的故事。
So you're leading this team, you hired a team of contractors to build this product.
所以你领导这个团队，你雇佣了一个承包商团队来构建这个产品。
You're in a whole different country from the rest of Atlassian, basically.
基本上，您与 Atlassian 的其他成员处于完全不同的国家。
And the whole idea here was just to do stuff that wouldn't be necessarily allowed at Atlassian.
这里的整个想法只是做 Atlassian 不一定允许的事情。
They wouldn't let you work this way.
他们不会让你这样工作。
And you found that to make the thing you needed to make, the thing that you were betting your career on, it sounded like, you're just going to be this pirate working on this thing in France and it worked out?
你发现，为了制作你需要制作的东西，你将自己的职业生涯押注在上面的东西，听起来就像是，你只需成为在法国从事这件事的海盗，结果就成功了？
Tanguy Crusson: So the Point A emoji and Atlassian is a .
Tanguy Crusson：所以 A 点表情符号和 Atlassian 是一个 .
I was not the only one.
我不是唯一一个。
There were quite a few of us working on new bets, basically operating like that.
我们中有不少人在做新的赌注，基本上就是这样运作的。
Each questioning different rules.
每个人质疑不同的规则。
The end goal was not to question the rules, the end goal was to get to the stuff that we needed to do, which is we just need to clean this space, to work with users to test prototypes up until it works and progressively get to, as I said, a product that's going to be enough to launch.
最终目标不是质疑规则，最终目标是完成我们需要做的事情，即我们只需要清理这个空间，与用户一起测试原型，直到它起作用，并逐步获得，正如我所说的，足以发布的产品。
So we never intended to break the rules, which is the things that we were going to choose the ones that were going to work to support us on this mission and say no to the others.
所以我们从来没有打算打破规则，我们要选择那些能够支持我们完成这一使命的东西，并对其他东西说不。
Tanguy Crusson: You mentioned Europe.
Tanguy Crusson：您提到了欧洲。
At the time, a lot of other Point A founders were struggling with the fact that they were operating from their mothership in Sydney because they're still with everyone else.
当时，许多其他 Point A 创始人都在为自己在悉尼的母舰运营而苦苦挣扎，因为他们仍然和其他人在一起。
You were talking about doing all this stuff, but remember that we've got this OKR thing, we've got this vision for GR that we're building, you need to participate in all this.
你正在谈论做所有这些事情，但请记住，我们已经有了 OKR 的东西，我们已经有了我们正在构建的 GR 愿景，你需要参与所有这一切。
And so I was in Europe going, "Fine, schedule it at your time."
所以我在欧洲说：“好吧，按你的时间安排吧。”
Tanguy Crusson: And I think a lot of teams were like, "We don't care enough about this test.
Tanguy Crusson：我认为很多团队都会说，“我们对这个测试不够关心。
They're telling us it's not going to exist in six months.
他们告诉我们六个月内它不会存在。
I don't care enough about this to stay up late or wake up super early every day to disagree with them." And so there was a lot of the early success that we had in being able to move super fast that came from being so far, that people just did not engage to stop us.
我不太关心这个问题，不会每天熬夜或早起来反对他们的观点。”因此，我们能够超快地采取行动，取得了很多早期的成功，这些成功来自于到目前为止，人们没有参与阻止我们。
Tanguy Crusson: And that's why we were initially the group with the fastest speed.
Tanguy Crusson：这就是为什么我们最初是速度最快的一组。
Then it was possible to institutionalize those things into Point A to then make it possible to do it from within Atlassian.
然后就有可能将这些事情制度化到 A 点，然后可以在 Atlassian 内部完成它。
But at first, we just needed to blaze our way through.
但一开始，我们只需要闯出一条路来。
So that's what we did.
这就是我们所做的。
Lenny Rachitsky: So it sounds like one of the biggest lessons and things that work well for something like this is a super silo sort of team, as much as you can disconnect from the core business and let them just do what you think you need to do?
Lenny Rachitsky：所以这听起来像是最大的教训之一，对于这样的事情来说，最有效的事情就是超级筒仓式的团队，尽可能多地脱离核心业务，让他们只做你认为需要做的事情？
Tanguy Crusson: You've interviewed Megan on the show before.
Tanguy Crusson：您之前在节目中采访过梅根。
Tanguy Crusson: And I listened again to the way she pitched Point A, and yes, that's exactly what came out of what she was saying.
Tanguy Crusson：我再次听了她推销 A 点的方式，是的，这正是她所说的。
Which is, we gave the space for those teams to be able to do this with a lot of autonomy.
也就是说，我们为这些团队提供了空间，让他们能够拥有很大的自主权来做到这一点。
And that was the outcome of all that work, basically, which is the program was then set up so new teams could do it and fitting within the mothership, basically.
基本上，这就是所有工作的结果，然后制定了该计划，以便新的团队可以完成这项工作，并基本上适应母舰。
Lenny Rachitsky: And I think people hear that, like yeah, okay, of course.
Lenny Rachitsky：我认为人们听到这个，就像是的，好吧，当然。
incubations, silo, separate, they do their own thing.
孵化、筒仓、分离，他们做自己的事情。
People hear and they try to do that, but I imagine it's not actually what they need to do.
人们听到并尝试这样做，但我想这实际上并不是他们需要做的。
And what I'm hearing is you went to a pretty far extreme of making that happen, not basically breaking the rules to allow for a silo to actually exist.
我听到的是，你为了实现这一目标而采取了相当极端的做法，基本上没有违反允许筒仓实际存在的规则。
And I love that.
我喜欢这样。
What else was key to the success of making this work out?
使这项工作成功的关键还有什么？
Tanguy Crusson: So the one that I'm most passionate about is how we work with customers is very different in a super early stage bet versus to what you do in a very established product like Jira.
Tanguy Crusson：所以我最感兴趣的是，我们在超早期阶段与客户合作的方式与在 Jira 这样的非常成熟的产品中所做的事情非常不同。
So the first part is, how can we innovate in a way that doesn't fuck up existing customers?
所以第一部分是，我们如何才能以一种不打扰现有客户的方式进行创新？
Jira, 120,000 customers, Atlassian, 300,000 customers.
Jira，120,000 名客户，Atlassian，300,000 名客户。
We can't just go in there, start experimenting, breaking a whole bunch of shit that millions of people experience and go, "What are you doing, Atlassian?" So what we needed is to create this area where we could experiment that's away from Jira while being inside Jira.
我们不能只是进去，开始实验，打破数百万人经历的一大堆狗屎，然后说，“你在做什么，Atlassian？”因此，我们需要创建一个可以在远离 Jira 且位于 Jira 内部进行实验的区域。
Tanguy Crusson: That part was a bit tough.
Tanguy Crusson：那部分有点困难。
It's possible to do.
这是可以做到的。
In fact, I came across an article from Ben Weiss.
事实上，我看到了 Ben Weiss 的一篇文章。
No, sorry, Noah Weiss, it's from many years ago now.
不，抱歉，诺亚·韦斯，这是很多年前的事了。
Where he was basically talking about innovating in a successful material product and talked about three stages of incubate, iterate, integrate.
他基本上谈论的是成功的材料产品的创新，并谈到了孵化、迭代、整合的三个阶段。
And as part of that he gave the examples of Instagram, Twitter, and Foursquare.
作为其中的一部分，他举了 Instagram、Twitter 和 Foursquare 的例子。
Where basically he was explaining, at the beginning, for example, Instagram was a feed that was chronological.
他基本上是在解释，例如，一开始，Instagram 是一个按时间顺序排列的提要。
And then the team started to experiment with a popular tab that was on the side that was not integrated into the core of the product that everyone uses.
然后团队开始尝试一个流行的选项卡，该选项卡位于未集成到每个人都使用的产品核心中的一侧。
Tanguy Crusson: They iterated on that for a while.
Tanguy Crusson：他们对此反复讨论了一段时间。
That became the explore tab and then the explore tab became the main feed.
这成为探索选项卡，然后探索选项卡成为主要提要。
The feed is not chronological anymore, it's based on your interests.
提要不再按时间顺序排列，而是基于您的兴趣。
And that part really resonated with me where I was like, "You know what?
那部分确实引起了我的共鸣，我当时想，“你知道吗？
We're going to try to apply that to Jira, which is we're going to build it in Jira, but we're going to extract ourselves from a lot of the core components of the core base to rebuild the UX that would work for the audience we're going after."
我们将尝试将其应用到 Jira 中，即我们将在 Jira 中构建它，但我们将从核心基础的许多核心组件中抽离出来，重建适合我们目标受众的用户体验。”
Tanguy Crusson: Our audience is product managers.
Tanguy Crusson：我们的受众是产品经理。
They have no patience for spinners, things need to be visual.
他们对旋转器没有耐心，事情需要视觉化。
They need to be able to quickly move things around to visualize the potential options they've got on their roadmaps and stuff like that.
他们需要能够快速移动事物，以可视化他们在路线图上的潜在选项以及类似的东西。
It needs to be snappy, it needs to get out of the way, but also something that they can feel proud to present to their stakeholders to have discussions around that.
它需要是敏捷的，它需要不碍事，而且是他们可以自豪地向利益相关者展示的东西，以便围绕这个问题进行讨论。
Tanguy Crusson: It can be bogged down into the details.
Tanguy Crusson：它可能会陷入细节之中。
It can go to very, very deep .
它可以去到非常非常深。
It needs to be an area, a space where you feel like you can breathe and have creative conversations.
它需要是一个让你感觉可以呼吸并进行创造性对话的区域。
And Jira's UI was not exactly known for that.
Jira 的 UI 并不因此而闻名。
And in fact, most of the product managers I talked to were like, "I don't want to do this in Jira.
事实上，我采访过的大多数产品经理都说，“我不想在 Jira 中这样做。
It's too strict, there's too many workflows, it's owned by IT," yada, yada.
它太严格了，工作流程太多了，它是 IT 拥有的，”yada，yada。
And so we said, "That's fine.
所以我们说：“没关系。
We're going to experiment with an experience that's going to be detached from Jira still on the same platform."
我们将在同一平台上尝试一种与 Jira 分离的体验。”
Tanguy Crusson: And that's what we did, basically.
Tanguy Crusson：基本上我们就是这么做的。
And so this concept of incubate by working on something on the site, iterate until you've got it right and then integrate it back into the main product is something I would definitely do again.
因此，通过在网站上处理某些内容来进行孵化，迭代直到正确，然后将其重新集成到主要产品中的概念是我肯定会再次做的事情。
We're currently in the middle of the integration phase for Jira product discovery.
我们目前正处于 Jira 产品发现的集成阶段。
Lenny Rachitsky: So the lesson there is don't force yourself to be a part of the broader product, initially.
Lenny Rachitsky：因此，我们的教训是，一开始不要强迫自己成为更广泛产品的一部分。
First, figure out what it could be if it's its own thing, and then eventually you can integrate?
首先，弄清楚如果它是自己的东西，它可能是什么，然后最终可以集成？
Tanguy Crusson: It depends who you're doing it for and the programs that they've got.
Tanguy Crusson：这取决于你为谁做这件事以及他们拥有的计划。
Don't feel limited by your platform to answer the core things that are necessary for your product to work, basically.
基本上，不要觉得自己的平台限制了你的产品运行所需的核心问题。
So if the platform is good enough for us, if the UX was good enough for the product managers, we would not have done that.
因此，如果平台对我们来说足够好，如果用户体验对产品经理来说足够好，我们就不会这样做。
And we would've had a hard time justifying it, but because it was not, we basically gave ourselves the stamp to be able to do it.
我们很难证明它的合理性，但因为事实并非如此，我们基本上给自己留下了能够做到这一点的印记。
So still in don't fuck existing customers, something I read from a site, from Reforge that talk about the Safety Funnel.
所以，我还是从 Reforge 的一个网站上读到了《别操现有客户》，其中讨论了安全漏斗。
Tanguy Crusson: So they have this thing where the typical growth funnel goes from acquisition all the way to revenue and there's a whole bunch of different stages in between.
Tanguy Crusson：因此，他们的典型增长漏斗是从收购一直到收入，中间有很多不同的阶段。
Your goal is to maximize the number of people who go through this funnel successfully.
您的目标是最大限度地增加成功通过此渠道的人数。
Tanguy Crusson: And I was trying to explain to people what we were trying to do with Jira Product Discovery, and I was struggling to put a name on it.
Tanguy Crusson：我试图向人们解释我们想通过 Jira Product Discovery 做什么，但我很难为其命名。
And it was we're going to work with a few, small number of customers up until it's right for them and then we're going to expose it to progressively more people.
我们将与少数客户合作，直到适合他们为止，然后我们将逐步将其展示给更多的人。
And I know it's very common sense, but that's basically what we decided to do instead of the Atlassian way, which was more, "Hey, we measure our success based on..." For example, at that time, I think it was still before all those projects, "...
我知道这是非常常识性的，但这基本上就是我们决定做的，而不是 Atlassian 的方式，更多的是，“嘿，我们根据……来衡量我们的成功。”例如，当时，我认为它仍然在所有这些项目之前，“……
monthly active users." If that was a measure of success, we would've been pushed very quickly to go and expose it to as many people as we could.
每月活跃用户数。”如果这是衡量成功的标准，我们会很快被推动去向尽可能多的人展示它。
We didn't want to do that because if they would have a bad experience, it would've been very hard to claim them back afterwards.
我们不想这样做，因为如果他们有不好的经历，事后就很难要求他们回来。
Tanguy Crusson: So someone in Reforge put the name on Safety Funnel.
Tanguy Crusson：所以 Reforge 的有人把这个名字放在了安全漏斗上。
So the Safety Funnel is amazing.
所以安全漏斗是惊人的。
People don't understand that.
人们不明白这一点。
You basically put a hard stop and you limit the number of people who had bad experiences.
你基本上是硬性阻止，并限制了有过糟糕经历的人数。
And you do that for a while, up until you can prove it's amazing and then you invite more people.
你会这样做一段时间，直到你能证明它是惊人的，然后你邀请更多的人。
So we did a lot of that.
所以我们做了很多这样的事情。
So we basically created that pocket away from Jira to reimagine what Jira could be for product managers.
因此，我们基本上在 Jira 之外创建了这个口袋，以重新构想 Jira 对于产品经理的意义。
And we only exposed that to a very small number of customers at first.
我们一开始只向极少数客户展示了这一点。
So that's don't fuck existing customers' first principle.
所以这就是不要违背现有客户的首要原则。
Lenny Rachitsky: And the reason that's important, just to put a point there, is the business will start to get upset if you're making many customers upset.
Lenny Rachitsky：重要的原因是，如果你让许多客户感到不安，那么企业就会开始感到不安。
Tanguy Crusson: That would've been it if we had triggered an incident that brought down Jira for millions of users.
Tanguy Crusson：如果我们触发了一个导致数百万用户无法使用 Jira 的事件，那就是这样了。
And first time might have been okay.
第一次可能还不错。
I mean, by the third time we would've been asked to pack up and go home, I think.
我的意思是，我想，到了第三次，我们就会被要求收拾行李回家。
Lenny Rachitsky: Got it.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：明白了。
So the advice there is just limit how many people get exposed to your very early product, even if it's going to hurt your numbers.
因此，那里的建议只是限制有多少人接触到你的早期产品，即使这会损害你的数量。
You don't want to cause people to be like, "What the hell are you doing over there, man?
你不想让人们说：“你到底在那边做什么，伙计？
."
”。
Tanguy Crusson: So your numbers is now the interesting one.
Tanguy Crusson：所以你的数字现在很有趣。
So how do you frame success and how do you define metrics when your goal is basically to work with a small number of customers for a super long time?
那么，当您的目标基本上是与少数客户长期合作时，您如何构建成功以及如何定义指标？
So that's what I ended up defining for this, is based on a term that was used at Atlassian that I tried to formalize it into something that everyone could refer to, which is the Lighthouse Users Program.
这就是我最终对此的定义，基于 Atlassian 使用的一个术语，我试图将其形式化为每个人都可以参考的东西，即 Lighthouse 用户计划。
And so the principle for it is it's a program, so it's an official thing.
所以它的原则是它是一个程序，所以它是一个官方的东西。
We have hundreds of thousands of customers at Atlassian, but we would only build the experience for a small number of them.
Atlassian 拥有数十万客户，但我们只会为其中一小部分客户打造体验。
And so there are stages to it.
所以它有几个阶段。
Tanguy Crusson: The first stage is we work with 10 and we prove that the problems that they had are the things that we solved and where we spend most of the time for the first 10 Lighthouse Users is to explain why they are the Lighthouse Users.
Tanguy Crusson：第一阶段是我们与 10 个灯塔用户合作，我们证明他们遇到的问题是我们解决的问题，我们花大部分时间为前 10 个灯塔用户解释为什么他们是灯塔用户。
Tanguy Crusson: Everything that explains why we believe they are a proxy for every customer that we serve afterwards.
Tanguy Crusson：一切都解释了为什么我们相信他们是我们之后服务的每一位客户的代理人。
We then have this stage from 10 to 100 where we recruit more customers, but we're still not in the fully self-service, don't need a lot of onboarding stuff.
然后我们会进入从 10 到 100 的阶段，我们会招募更多的客户，但我们仍然没有处于完全自助服务状态，不需要很多入职人员。
We're still testing out the value, but we're testing the different variations in the scenarios that people face to make sure that the core solution that we've got can cater for those.
我们仍在测试其价值，但我们正在测试人们面临的场景的不同变化，以确保我们拥有的核心解决方案能够满足这些需求。
So there's a lot of different options and different security needs.
因此有很多不同的选择和不同的安全需求。
There's a lot of subtleties that you catch between 10 and 100.
10 到 100 之间有很多微妙之处。
Tanguy Crusson: Then we get to a stage where we're like, "You know what?
Tanguy Crusson：然后我们就进入了这样一个阶段：“你知道吗？
It's good.
很好。
It solves people's problems, but it's not self-service.
它解决了人们的问题，但不是自助服务。
We just need to explain stuff.
我们只需要解释一下。
We need to work with people on Slack.
我们需要与 Slack 上的人合作。
We need to work with them and answer a lot of support tickets or do a lot of Zoom calls to explain stuff."
我们需要与他们合作并回复大量支持请求或进行大量 Zoom 通话来解释问题。”
Tanguy Crusson: Now we need to get from 100 to 1,000, and by getting there we basically need to solve all of that and after that we graduate.
Tanguy Crusson：现在我们需要从 100 到 1,000，到了那里我们基本上需要解决所有这些问题，然后我们就毕业了。
So basically by detailing that and explaining all the success criteria in between, it helps to define success in that in the make phase, we've got 10, 100, 1,000, and then people can understand exactly where we're at there, and the types of questions we're trying to answer.
因此，基本上，通过详细说明并解释其间的所有成功标准，有助于在制作阶段定义成功，我们有 10 个、100 个、1,000 个，然后人们可以准确地理解我们所处的位置以及我们试图回答的问题类型。
In the 10, we're answering every question with a user, snippet of a video call with them, either talking about their problem and solution but showing the product and how they solve with it.
在 10 中，我们回答用户的每个问题，与他们进行视频通话的片段，要么谈论他们的问题和解决方案，要么展示产品以及他们如何解决问题。
Tanguy Crusson: That's how we wanted our stakeholders to view it, which is it's very qualitative, but have it felt from the user's perspective.
Tanguy Crusson：这就是我们希望利益相关者看待它的方式，即它是非常定性的，但要从用户的角度来感受。
It's different when we go from 10 to 100, from 100 to 1,000, but for each of those there's a playbook for how you go from one to the other.
当我们从 10 到 100、从 100 到 1,000 时，情况会有所不同，但对于每一个，都有一本如何从一个到另一个的剧本。
That helped us because we could then clean the space to do the right thing and we will not ask to hit, for example, a multi-active user's number or number of customers' number or percentage of users who use this number.
这对我们很有帮助，因为我们可以清理空间来做正确的事情，并且我们不会要求点击例如多活动用户的数量或客户的数量或使用该号码的用户的百分比。
Because it's very qualitative still when we're at that stage.
因为当我们处于那个阶段时，它仍然是非常定性的。
Lenny Rachitsky: That is super cool and super interesting.
Lenny Rachitsky：这非常酷而且非常有趣。
And it's along the lines of the gates.
它沿着大门的线。
It aligns with, at each gate, here's how many users we're looking for.
它与我们在每个登机口寻找的用户数量一致。
Basically, it sets expectations for what success is, keeps you from having to scale things too early.
基本上，它设定了对成功的期望，使您不必过早地扩大规模。
It's such a cool idea.
这是一个很酷的主意。
And you call it Lighthouse Users, like the Lighthouse Users Program?
您将其称为“灯塔用户”，就像“灯塔用户计划”一样？
Tanguy Crusson: Lighthouse Users, and there's two sides to it.
Tanguy Crusson：灯塔用户，有两个方面。
We just talked about the stakeholder facing side.
我们刚刚谈到了面向利益相关者的一面。
The one I love is the team facing side of this, which is I've seen a lot of teams, Atlassian and other companies as the products grow, you tend to leverage a lot more user research, formal user research or CSAT service.
我喜欢的是面向这一方面的团队，我见过很多团队、Atlassian 和其他公司，随着产品的增长，你倾向于利用更多的用户研究、正式的用户研究或 CSAT 服务。
And the way I call it, it's hiding behind research and not being close enough to the ground with customers.
按照我的说法，它隐藏在研究背后，不够贴近客户。
And what I want to do in the teams I work with is to create a direct feedback loop with customers, but not like someone gives you feedback and you do it.
我想要在与我合作的团队中做的是与客户创建一个直接的反馈循环，但不像有人给你反馈然后你就去做。
We talk...
我们说话...
Tanguy Crusson: ...
唐吉·克鲁森：……
with customers, but not like someone gives you feedback and you do it.
与客户合作，但不像有人给你反馈然后你就去做。
We talk to those customers, we build stuff for them.
我们与这些客户交谈，为他们构建产品。
So there's something I've seen which is climate change.
我看到了气候变化。
It's a thing.
这是一件事。
Everyone knows it's a thing.
每个人都知道这是一件事。
We all read reports about it.
我们都读过有关它的报道。
We're all like ...
我们都像...
Every time we read an IPCC report we're like, "Shit." Do we change anything?
每次我们读到 IPCC 报告时，我们都会说：“妈的。”我们改变什么吗？
Not enough.
还不够。
Tanguy Crusson: What makes people want to change and actually gives them a trigger to change?
Tanguy Crusson：是什么让人们想要改变，并真正触发他们改变？
I've seen is a lot more empathizing with individual people's experience.
我看到人们更加同情个人的经历。
If I know someone that's impacted by climate change, it's going to make me relate a lot more strongly to the concept of climate change and want to change myself.
如果我认识一个受气候变化影响的人，这会让我对气候变化的概念产生更强烈的联系，并想要改变自己。
Sorry for the power note here.
抱歉，这里的电源说明。
I'm-
我是——
Lenny Rachitsky: No, that's such a good example.
Lenny Rachitsky：不，这是一个很好的例子。
Such a good way of making that point very clear of just the power of talking to a small number of users versus thinking that the more data you have, looking at data, CSAT scores, NPS retention will tell you what you need.
这是一种很好的方式，可以非常清楚地表明与少数用户交谈的力量，而不是认为拥有的数据越多，查看数据、CSAT 分数、NPS 保留率就会告诉你需要什么。
Tanguy Crusson: So what we do with that is we recruit 10 people and we put these people in front of the whole team, not just the PMs, PM, designer, engineering.
Tanguy Crusson：所以我们要做的是招募 10 个人，并将这些人放在整个团队的前面，而不仅仅是 PM、PM、设计师、工程人员。
We meet on Zoom, we chat, we work with the same ones over months to build a product.
我们在 Zoom 上见面、聊天，并与相同的人一起工作数月来开发产品。
They are with us on Slack.
他们在 Slack 上与我们同在。
We have regular things.
我们有常规的事情。
Tanguy Crusson: What we've seen, what I've seen going fast is that the engineers would go into a planning meeting and the PM would say, "So we should work on X," and the engineer will go, "Wait a minute.
Tanguy Crusson：我们所看到的，我所看到的进展很快，工程师会参加计划会议，PM 会说，“所以我们应该在 X 上工作”，然后工程师会说，“等一下。
We've had a talk with this customer and they struggle with this so I think we should work on that instead and fix that part of the experience," and so on and so forth.
我们已经与这位客户进行了交谈，他们对此感到困扰，所以我认为我们应该在这个问题上努力并修复这部分体验，”等等。
Tanguy Crusson: So all of a sudden you're not talking about a product manager, you're talking about a product team with product engineers.
Tanguy Crusson：所以突然间你谈论的不再是产品经理，而是由产品工程师组成的产品团队。
So there was this thing at Atlassian where we called some engineers were more like system engineers, some were more product engineers.
因此，在 Atlassian 中，我们称一些工程师更像是系统工程师，有些则更像是产品工程师。
Tanguy Crusson: In my opinion everyone can be a product engineer.
Tanguy Crusson：我认为每个人都可以成为产品工程师。
They just need to be exposed to the right user context.
他们只需要暴露在正确的用户上下文中即可。
The right user context, what is it?
正确的用户上下文是什么？
It's 10 customers you know by name, you know their context, you know their problems.
这是 10 位您知道名字的客户，您知道他们的背景，您知道他们的问题。
You can empathize with it.
你可以感同身受。
This empathy makes you want to act to change your product to solve their problem and you get really huge pride coming back out of it.
这种同理心让你想要采取行动改变你的产品来解决他们的问题，并且你会从中获得巨大的自豪感。
Tanguy Crusson: It can seem counterintuitive in a company like Atlassian.
Tanguy Crusson：对于 Atlassian 这样的公司来说，这似乎违反直觉。
300,000 customers, right?
30万客户，对吗？
We should build for them.
我们应该为他们建造。
Well, you can't, right?
嗯，你不能，对吧？
We're limited in our ability to make changes that will work for the vast majority so might as well embrace that.
我们的能力有限，无法做出对绝大多数人有效的改变，所以不妨接受这一点。
Embrace that we are indeed biased, that we are indeed reacting based on feelings, like wanting to help or not wanting to help or reacting strongly to what you've seen, but we are embracing that to try and build the best product possible.
承认我们确实存在偏见，我们确实是根据感觉做出反应，比如想要帮助或不想提供帮助，或者对您所看到的做出强烈反应，但我们正在接受这一点，以尝试构建最好的产品。
I've actually seen that the outcome is, so far on this product it's worked.
我实际上已经看到结果是，到目前为止，该产品是有效的。
Lenny Rachitsky: If you actually think about this from the perspective of how would a startup approach this?
Lenny Rachitsky：如果你真的从初创公司如何处理这个问题的角度来思考这个问题？
This is exactly how a company that's just starting out would approach it.
这正是一家刚刚起步的公司所采取的做法。
So it makes tons of sense to think of it this way.
所以这样想是很有意义的。
It's just people don't actually do this.
只是人们实际上并没有这样做。
It's hard to do.
这很难做到。
Lenny Rachitsky: This is a segue to a question I wanted to ask.
Lenny Rachitsky：这是我想问的一个问题的延续。
So it took probably a long time for you to show real success, real progress, real like, "This is going to work." First of all how long was that period of just like, "This is probably not going to work too.
所以你可能需要很长时间才能表现出真正的成功、真正的进步、真正的“这会起作用”。首先，“这可能也行不通”的那段时期持续了多久。
Oh wow, maybe this is going to work"?
哦哇，也许这会起作用”？
And along the same lines, how does Atlassian slash ...
同样，Atlassian 如何削减......
What have you learned about how to protect this, Pixar people call it an ugly baby?
关于如何保护这个皮克斯人称之为丑陋的婴儿，你学到了什么？
When an idea is new they call this an ugly baby.
当一个想法是新的时，他们称之为丑陋的婴儿。
People don't want it.
人们不想要它。
It's just like, "Get rid of this thing."
就像“摆脱这个东西”。
Lenny Rachitsky: Man, that sounds mean to say, but that's the way they talk about it.
Lenny Rachitsky：伙计，这听起来很刻薄，但他们就是这么谈论的。
That's the term in creativity.
这就是创造力中的术语。
Lenny Rachitsky: How do you protect that because that's the biggest challenge I think a lot of companies have is just like, "It's been six months.
Lenny Rachitsky：你如何保护它，因为这是我认为很多公司面临的最大挑战，就像，“已经过去六个月了。
No one wants this.
没有人想要这个。
We're going to kill it." How do you protect it?
我们要杀死它。”你如何保护它？
So how long did it take for it to show success and what have you learned about how to protect?
那么，它花了多长时间才显示出成功？您学到了什么有关如何保护的知识？
Tanguy Crusson: Yeah.
唐吉·克鲁森：是的。
So basically, internal comms is everything there.
所以基本上，内部沟通就是一切。
The way I saw my job as, a large part as being very clear on where we were, on what we were learning on, how fast we were learning, how fast we were moving.
我对我的工作的看法，很大程度上是非常清楚我们在哪里，我们在学习什么，我们学习的速度有多快，我们前进的速度有多快。
Being super honest every step of the way, not try to make shit up and try to make it bigger than it is, more successful than it is.
每一步都要非常诚实，不要试图编造故事，也不要试图把事情做得更大、更成功。
Tanguy Crusson: On the contrary, be very clear about what we're testing, where we're testing it.
Tanguy Crusson：相反，要非常清楚我们正在测试什么、在哪里测试。
Doing that with data, doing that with personal customer stories because we all can constantly relate to the heart and to the mind.
用数据、个人客户故事来做到这一点，因为我们都可以不断地与心灵和思想联系起来。
So that's what I always try to weave into comms that I then send weekly.
所以这就是我总是尝试将其融入到我每周发送的通讯中。
Tanguy Crusson: So we've got this product internally called Atlas, which have a project on Atlas.
Tanguy Crusson：所以我们内部有这个产品，称为 Atlas，它在 Atlas 上有一个项目。
People can subscribe to this project and then weekly you send a tweet-sized update about your project.
人们可以订阅这个项目，然后每周您都会发送有关您的项目的推文大小的更新。
I was using that as a platform to communicate internally about this product and there were actually hundreds of people who ended up subscribing to this thing.
我用它作为一个平台来内部交流这个产品，实际上有数百人最终订阅了这个东西。
Tanguy Crusson: Every week when we were at the stage where we were trying to get the first version out to customers it was a weekly demo of the product and everything that we built.
Tanguy Crusson：每周，当我们处于尝试向客户提供第一个版本的阶段时，每周都会对产品和我们构建的所有内容进行演示。
Show the momentum as much as possible.
尽可能展现气势。
I was even saving features for one week to the next just to ...
我什至将功能保存到下一周只是为了......
When I knew we were going to be on vacation, for example, just to have something to show this train that keeps moving, it keeps moving.
例如，当我知道我们要去度假时，只是为了展示这列一直行驶的火车，它就一直在行驶。
You don't want to get in front of it.
你不想挡在它前面。
Tanguy Crusson: But then what I needed to do is to balance that out with all the customer side of things.
Tanguy Crusson：但是我需要做的是平衡这一点与所有客户方面的事情。
So when we started to put it in front of customers then it was snippets from customer conversations.
因此，当我们开始将其呈现在客户面前时，它只是客户对话中的片段。
No one is going to read a research report that takes 30 minutes to read.
没有人会去读一篇需要 30 分钟才能读完的研究报告。
Everyone is happy to watch a three-minute snippet with four customers talking about something.
每个人都很高兴观看四位顾客谈论某事的三分钟片段。
So I was using that a lot every week by posting those out there and then sharing them widely on Slack to go, "This is what we learned.
所以我每周都会大量使用它，将它们发布到那里，然后在 Slack 上广泛分享，“这就是我们学到的东西。
This is what this customer is facing in terms of problem with Jira.
这就是该客户在 Jira 方面面临的问题。
This is how we're solving it.
这就是我们解决问题的方法。
This is them talking about it," that kind of stuff.
这是他们在谈论的事情，”之类的东西。
Tanguy Crusson: So I was publishing that there and then sending that everywhere on Slack.
Tanguy Crusson：所以我在那里发布了该内容，然后将其发送到 Slack 上的各个地方。
Those kinds of things are what give people a sense of velocity and speed, and no one wants to fuck with a high-speed train.
这些东西给人一种速度感和速度感，没有人愿意玩高速列车。
You don't get in front of it.
你不会挡在它前面。
That doesn't help and you're going to look bad by doing that.
这没有任何帮助，而且这样做会让你看起来很糟糕。
So basically that ended up buying us the time that we needed to get out of this, I don't know how you call it, the ugly baby phase.
所以基本上这最终为我们赢得了摆脱这个阶段所需的时间，我不知道你怎么称呼它，丑陋的婴儿阶段。
Tanguy Crusson: So basically it helped us get out of this phase where we don't have anything to show for yet because what we're showing is based on the learnings we're trying to get and we're trying to do that with, "Here's some numbers, here's some demos, here's some user snippets." Doing that every week because people can consume bite-sized content every week.
Tanguy Crusson：所以基本上它帮助我们摆脱了这个阶段，我们还没有任何东西可以展示，因为我们展示的内容是基于我们试图获得的学习成果，我们试图通过“这里有一些数字，这里有一些演示，这里有一些用户片段”来做到这一点。每周都这样做，因为人们每周都可以消费一口大小的内容。
They just struggle with the stuff where you come in three, four months later and go, "This is what we have to show for."
他们只是在与三四个月后你进来的事情作斗争，“这就是我们必须展示的东西。”
Lenny Rachitsky: Right.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：对。
How long was that period before it got out of this ugly baby phase for you?
对你来说，过了多久你就摆脱了这个丑陋的婴儿阶段？
When did people start to get like, "Oh wow, this might work"?
人们什么时候开始觉得“哇哦，这可能有用”？
Tanguy Crusson: Honestly, we had something dogfooding within two months, in the hands of the first lighthouse user within five months.
Tanguy Crusson：老实说，我们在两个月内就完成了一些测试，并在五个月内交到了第一个灯塔用户的手中。
We iterated on the alpha for maybe six months.
我们对 alpha 版本进行了大约六个月的迭代。
We then entered a beta that lasted close to a year.
然后我们进入了持续近一年的测试版。
Tanguy Crusson: So I think at every step of the way people could see us going somewhere, and I think initially they judged, not the outcome.
Tanguy Crusson：所以我认为人们可以看到我们走向某个地方的每一步，我认为他们最初的判断是，而不是结果。
They judged the team a lot more than the outcome.
他们对球队的评价远多于对结果的评价。
Tanguy Crusson: So there's all this talk of founder market fit and I think really that's what you need to be teasing out, which is, is it the right thing, going after the right problems?
Tanguy Crusson：所以大家都在谈论创始人市场契合度，我认为这确实是你需要弄清楚的，那就是，追求正确的问题是正确的事情吗？
Then if they can answer yes in ways that you haven't thought about asking consistently week over week, it's enough.
然后，如果他们能以你没有想过每周持续询问的方式回答“是”，那就足够了。
I think that's where we were up until the stage where we were able to give something to customers, but the first lighthouse user was five months in.
我认为这就是我们能够向客户提供一些东西的阶段，但第一个灯塔用户已经五个月了。
So it didn't even matter whether it looked good or not because people could see, "Okay, that's what ...
所以它看起来好不好并不重要，因为人们可以看到，“好吧，那就是......
Oh, there's something there," right?
哦，那里有东西，”对吧？
Tanguy Crusson: So I'm not sure if there's one precise moment where it happened.
Tanguy Crusson：所以我不确定是否有一个确切的时刻发生了这一情况。
However, there was this one moment where we were like, "Okay, that's it.
然而，有那么一刻我们的反应是：“好吧，就这样了。
We're ready to go GA." One of the founders, Mike went, "No, you're not.
我们已经准备好正式上市了。”创始人之一迈克说，“不，你还没有。
That thing is ugly.
那东西很丑。
I do not want to look at it.
我不想看它。
It needs to level up with the rest of the Atlassian design standards.
它需要与 Atlassian 的其他设计标准保持一致。
Our customers have expectations from us on that front.
我们的客户在这方面对我们抱有期望。
Your stuff is functional, but it's way too early."
你的东西很实用，但还太早了。”
Tanguy Crusson: So we went and fixed it.
Tanguy Crusson：所以我们去修复了它。
Took us two, three months and then we were okay to go.
我们花了两三个月的时间，然后就可以出发了。
But yeah, no, because we had point A, because we had this expectation set that it would take a while to get there and because we were able to show progress every week, we basically didn't really feel that moment where we don't know what to do with this because it's too early.
但是，是的，不，因为我们有A点，因为我们设定了这样的期望，即需要一段时间才能到达那里，并且因为我们每周都能展示进展，所以我们基本上没有真正感受到我们不知道该怎么做的那一刻，因为现在还为时过早。
Lenny Rachitsky: This design improvement phase, what I'm visualizing is you're this pirate that is invited to a nice dinner and you have to start cleaning up.
Lenny Rachitsky：在这个设计改进阶段，我想象的是你是一个被邀请参加一顿丰盛晚餐的海盗，你必须开始清理。
You have to start looking good and become inter-society.
你必须开始变得漂亮并融入社会。
It makes a lot of sense.
这很有意义。
Lenny Rachitsky: Also, what you're describing makes me think again of this concept of, it's your job to keep the flame alive and help it spread within the organization.
Lenny Rachitsky：另外，你所描述的内容让我再次思考这个概念，你的工作就是保持火焰的活力并帮助它在组织内传播。
So you have this idea and you're just like, keep momentum going, keep the flame growing by sharing constant updates, sharing progress, make it very easy to consume with little snippets and videos.
所以你有了这个想法，你就想，保持动力，通过分享不断的更新、分享进展来保持火焰不断增长，通过小片段和视频让它变得很容易消费。
So there's a lot of great advice here.
所以这里有很多很好的建议。
Lenny Rachitsky: So timeline-wise, interestingly what I'm hearing is it basically took a year from idea to alpha, something like that.
Lenny Rachitsky：从时间线来看，有趣的是，我听到的是从想法到 alpha 基本上花了一年的时间，类似的事情。
Is that roughly right?
大致是这样吗？
Tanguy Crusson: Just like seven months ...
Tanguy Crusson：就像七个月一样......
No, five months to first alpha1 customer.
不，距离第一个 alpha1 客户还有五个月的时间。
Tanguy Crusson: We stayed in alpha for six months.
Tanguy Crusson：我们在 alpha 阶段呆了六个月。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, got it.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的，明白了。
So through alpha about a year total.
因此，通过 alpha 总共大约需要一年时间。
Many people are hearing this.
很多人都听到这句话。
On the one hand it would be like, "Of course, Atlassian has all these resources.
一方面，人们会说：“当然，Atlassian 拥有所有这些资源。
They're going to spend a year on this idea that who knows is going to work out.
他们将花费一年的时间来研究这个想法，谁知道会不会成功。
It's so easy for them."
这对他们来说太容易了。”
Lenny Rachitsky: I imagine there was much pain and suffering and challenge along the way that happened that makes it not so easy.
Lenny Rachitsky：我想一路上发生了很多痛苦、磨难和挑战，这使得事情变得不那么容易。
Is there something you could share by just the struggle to actually make this real just as a way to wrap up conversation, go back to therapy if there's anything you want to share?
有没有什么东西是你可以分享的，通过努力让这一切成为现实，作为结束谈话的一种方式，如果有什么你想分享的，就回去接受治疗？
Tanguy Crusson: Yeah.
唐吉·克鲁森：是的。
Basically, it's pretty much what we talked about earlier with lots of processes that were not changed yet because we're at the very beginning of point A, and people still wanting us to chime in on the things that were important for their part of the organization where we would play a part later if we become successful.
基本上，这几乎就是我们之前谈到的，有很多流程尚未改变，因为我们正处于 A 点的开始，人们仍然希望我们插话对他们在组织中的部分很重要的事情，如果我们取得成功，我们将在以后发挥作用。
Tanguy Crusson: So none of that stuff was just solved once and for all.
Tanguy Crusson：所以这些问题都不是一劳永逸地解决的。
It was just a constant process to play with that, but I think we managed to get out of these things pretty gracefully in the end and I think we gained some level of admiration for some teams from that and some found it a bit ...
这只是一个持续的过程，但我认为我们最终非常优雅地摆脱了这些事情，我认为我们从中获得了一些团队的某种程度的钦佩，有些团队发现了一点......
It's always interesting to see someone breaking the rules and getting away with it.
看到有人违反规则并逍遥法外总是很有趣。
I think it inspired some of the other founders to try and do that, which was pretty cool to see.
我认为这激励了其他一些创始人尝试这样做，这看起来很酷。
Tanguy Crusson: It's actually something I'd love to see more, hearing back from the customers I've been talking to about this in their company, rather than feel suffocated by the current processes and they don't feel like they can break the chains.
Tanguy Crusson：这实际上是我希望看到更多的东西，从我在他们公司与我交谈过的客户那里得到反馈，而不是对当前流程感到窒息，他们觉得自己无法打破链条。
So I'm hoping it inspires a few more teams to give it a go, really.
所以我希望它能激励更多的团队去尝试，真的。
Lenny Rachitsky: There's clearly more I want to learn about point A and how other companies do this incubation stuff.
Lenny Rachitsky：显然，我想了解更多有关 A 点以及其他公司如何进行孵化工作的信息。
So this is a really good inspiration to dig deeper into those sorts of programs.
因此，这是深入研究此类程序的一个非常好的灵感。
Lenny Rachitsky: We've covered a lot of ground.
Lenny Rachitsky：我们已经了解了很多内容。
We've talked about things that have worked and haven't worked, all kinds of therapy and pain, but also things that help you succeed and build amazing products.
我们讨论了有效和无效的方法、各种治疗方法和疼痛，还讨论了可以帮助您成功并打造令人惊叹的产品的方法。
Is there anything else you want to share or leave listeners with before we get to a very exciting lightning round?
在我们进入激动人心的闪电回合之前，您还有什么想与听众分享或留给听众的吗？
Tanguy Crusson: Yeah.
唐吉·克鲁森：是的。
I would try to balance the point I just gave, which is it's hard so someone has to try.
我会尝试平衡我刚才提出的观点，即这很难，所以必须有人尝试。
Always feel like you can push.
总感觉自己可以推。
I'd like to balance that a bit with be careful for yourself as well and make sure that you're doing this in an environment that's ready to welcome it.
我想平衡一下这一点，同时也要小心自己，并确保你在一个准备好欢迎它的环境中这样做。
Tanguy Crusson: So as I mentioned, I worked at Atlassian now for the past 10 years.
Tanguy Crusson：正如我提到的，过去 10 年我在 Atlassian 工作。
Before that I used to work in banks, in heavily regulated industries, in a whole bunch of different areas where that kind of stuff was not okay.
在此之前，我曾在银行、受到严格监管的行业以及许多不同的领域工作过，在这些领域，这类事情是不可接受的。
I could have tried to push, it would have not gone well at all.
我本可以尝试推动，但结果根本不会顺利。
Tanguy Crusson: So I think I'm deeply convinced by the fact that we don't need so much top-down leadership.
Tanguy Crusson：所以我认为我深信我们不需要那么多自上而下的领导。
What we need is a lot of autonomous leaders, regardless of their position within the org, able to push for change, fighting for the right things, but you need to do that in an environment that's safe for you to do so.
我们需要的是许多自主领导者，无论他们在组织中的职位如何，都能够推动变革，为正确的事情而奋斗，但你需要在一个对你来说安全的环境中做到这一点。
If it's not, I think it's okay to consider alternatives.
如果不是，我认为可以考虑其他选择。
Tanguy Crusson: So in other words, don't feel like you're trapped.
Tanguy Crusson：换句话说，不要觉得自己被困住了。
Right?
正确的？
You only have one work life.
你只有一种工作生活。
Do it in places where you really believe you can do amazing work and surrounded by people that you're excited to work with.
在你真正相信自己可以做出令人惊叹的工作并且周围都是你很高兴与你一起工作的人的地方去做这件事。
Otherwise, I've been there before where it's possible to become cynical by the weight of the things that are not possible and ending up doubting your own ability to do stuff really.
否则，我以前也经历过这样的情况，你可能会因为那些不可能的事情而变得愤世嫉俗，最终怀疑自己真正做事的能力。
So it's a bit of a balance of push for the right things, but also watch after yourself and if the environment is not right, it's okay to change.
因此，这是一种平衡，既要推动正确的事情，又要照顾好自己，如果环境不合适，可以改变。
Lenny Rachitsky: This is a really hot topic and common question in product management and I imagine other functions in product of just how much can actually change as an IC at a company.
Lenny Rachitsky：这是产品管理中的一个非常热门的话题和常见问题，我想象产品中的其他功能作为公司的 IC 实际上可以改变多少。
I hear all this advice about making change, changing culture, incubating stuff, innovating.
我听到了所有关于做出改变、改变文化、孵化东西、创新的建议。
How much can you actually make an impact versus, "Nothing's going to change.
与“什么都不会改变”相比，你实际上能产生多少影响。
I should go work somewhere else"?
我应该去别的地方工作吗？”
Do you have any advice there?
你有什么建议吗？
It sounds like basically you're saying there's oftentimes you have no impact on how the business and culture's going to work and you probably should go find a company like Atlassian that does learn how to incubate and innovate and think differently.
听起来基本上你是在说，很多时候你对业务和文化的运作方式没有任何影响，你可能应该去找像 Atlassian 这样的公司，它确实学习如何孵化、创新和以不同的方式思考。
Tanguy Crusson: Yeah.
唐吉·克鲁森：是的。
This one is a ...
这是一个...
I'm not sure how to answer that really because I've worked with, consulted, worked for close to 50 companies.
我不知道如何回答这个问题，因为我曾与近 50 家公司合作、咨询过、工作过。
Atlassian is the first company I joined where I was at home from day one, challenged in the right way, but fuck, I can really choose my battles and go after them.
Atlassian 是我加入的第一家公司，从第一天起我就在家里，以正确的方式接受挑战，但是操，我真的可以选择我的战斗并追求它们。
Things are hard, but it's okay.
事情虽然很难，但没关系。
Tanguy Crusson: So I joined Atlassian.
Tanguy Crusson：所以我加入了 Atlassian。
found the trampoline like that, but yeah, I would just go, not settle for status quo because you cannot be the only sane person in a room.
发现了这样的蹦床，但是，是的，我会去，而不是满足于现状，因为你不可能是房间里唯一理智的人。
At some point you will go insane.
到了某个时候你就会发疯。
The environment will permeate on you.
环境会渗透到你身上。
You are not this entity that is absolutely permeable to everything that happens around you.
你并不是一个绝对可以渗透到你周围发生的一切的实体。
Everything around you will affect you and will change you as a person.
你周围的一切都会影响你并改变你这个人。
I really believe that.
我真的相信这一点。
Tanguy Crusson: So you need to surround yourself with people and environments that can help bring out the best in you, otherwise you can turn bad.
Tanguy Crusson：所以你需要让自己周围的人和环境能够帮助你发挥出最好的一面，否则你可能会变坏。
I myself have been cynical in the past working in environments that were cynical and I then decided it's not me.
我自己过去一直很愤世嫉俗，在愤世嫉俗的环境中工作，然后我决定这不是我。
I do not want it to be me.
我不希望它是我。
It was me back then.
那时的我。
I do not want it to be me.
我不希望它是我。
Tanguy Crusson: So yeah, that's my only advice, which is have the courage to ask yourselves those questions because otherwise it might change you in ways you don't want to.
Tanguy Crusson：是的，这是我唯一的建议，那就是要有勇气问自己这些问题，否则它可能会以你不想的方式改变你。
Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing advice.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：很棒的建议。
Really important advice.
非常重要的建议。
With that we've reached our very exciting lightning round.
至此，我们进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。
Are you ready?
你准备好了吗？
Lenny Rachitsky: All right, here we go.
Lenny Rachitsky：好的，我们开始吧。
First question, what are two or three books that you've recommended most to other people?
第一个问题，您向其他人推荐最多的两三本书是什么？
Tanguy Crusson: Yeah, the first one was a book that was recommended to me by Scott Farquhar, founder of Atlassian co-founder.
Tanguy Crusson：是的，第一本书是 Atlassian 联合创始人 Scott Farquhar 向我推荐的一本书。
Who: A Method for Hiring is basically a book about how to do the thing that I for a while was really bad at, which is try to interview to understand who's going to be a good person, not a good person to join your team.
《谁：招聘方法》基本上是一本关于如何做我有一段时间非常不擅长的事情的书，即尝试通过面试来了解谁会成为一个好人，而不是一个加入你的团队的好人。
Tanguy Crusson: Second one, so that's one book about work.
Tanguy Crusson：第二本，这是一本关于工作的书。
Two other books that are not about work.
另外两本与工作无关的书。
Highly recommend reading Hakim's Odyssey.
强烈推荐阅读哈基姆的奥德赛。
It's the story of a Syrian refugee moving out of Syria, trying to move into Europe.
这是一个叙利亚难民离开叙利亚，试图进入欧洲的故事。
We hear a lot of these stats and numbers about people trying to cross the Med Sea or basically become refugees in other countries and it's very easy to look at it complacently up until you meet a personal story.
我们听到很多关于人们试图穿越地中海或基本上成为其他国家的难民的统计数据和数字，并且很容易沾沾自喜，直到您遇到个人故事。
This personal story of Hakim that was told very beautifully by this illustrator is well worth a read on that front.
这位插画家以精美的方式讲述了哈基姆的个人故事，在这方面非常值得一读。
Tanguy Crusson: The last one is a book that I'm not sure has been translated from French.
Tanguy Crusson：最后一本是一本我不确定是否是从法语翻译而来的书。
It's called Vivre avec la Terre, To Live with the Earth and it's about how we could build a different agricultural system to the one that we have today that might have better ways to feed us into the future that doesn't require large monoculture of vegetables that may not be as sustainable.
它被称为“Vivre avec la Terre”，即“与地球共存”，它是关于我们如何建立一种与今天不同的农业系统，可能有更好的方法来养活我们的未来，而不需要大规模单一种植蔬菜，而这种蔬菜种植可能不那么可持续。
Tanguy Crusson: They managed to create a really efficient structure on very small parcels of land with a lot of species working together to control and not need the use of any pesticides and stuff like that.
Tanguy Crusson：他们设法在很小的土地上创建了一个非常有效的结构，其中有很多物种共同努力控制，而不需要使用任何杀虫剂之类的东西。
They've been always surrounded by teams of researchers from the, I think it's called the Inria.
他们总是被来自，我认为叫做 Inria 的研究团队包围着。
It's one of the French research centers, have got really amazing results, but I don't think many know that this stuff exists and that it could actually be used out there and I think that's a shame.
它是法国研究中心之一，取得了非常惊人的成果，但我认为很多人都不知道这种东西的存在，并且它实际上可以在那里使用，我认为这是一种耻辱。
Lenny Rachitsky: I think it's the first book that sounds recommended that's only in a different language, but may not be translated.
Lenny Rachitsky：我认为这是第一本听起来值得推荐的书，但只有不同的语言版本，但可能不会被翻译。
Tanguy Crusson: It might be translated.
Tanguy Crusson：可能会被翻译。
I hope it is.
我希望是这样。
It's pretty thick though and it's very technical.
虽然很厚，但很有技术含量。
So I've read the principles bit and I would get lost in all the technical aspects of growing food, to be honest.
所以我读过一些原则，说实话，我会迷失在种植食物的所有技术方面。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, love it.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的，喜欢它。
So let's ask you your favorite interview question.
那么让我们问你最喜欢的面试问题。
What's your favorite interview question?
你最喜欢的面试问题是什么？
Tanguy Crusson: Yeah.
唐吉·克鲁森：是的。
So I struggled a lot with interviewing and I've read all the standard interview questions there is out there and I've heard them in your podcast as well.
因此，我在面试中遇到了很多困难，我已经阅读了所有标准面试问题，并且也在您的播客中听到了它们。
There is one that came from this book that Scott Farquhar also told me was working really well for him is when people describe an experience, you ask them the name of the person that they worked with back then.
斯科特·法夸尔还告诉我，这本书中的一个内容对他来说非常有效，那就是当人们描述一次经历时，你问他们当时共事的人的名字。
And you ask them, "So when I call this person after our call, what do you think they're going to say about that?"
你问他们：“那么当我在通话后给这个人打电话时，你认为他们会对此说什么？”
Tanguy Crusson: Apparently this does something and I've seen it happen where people are unable to project and invent on the spot something from the lens of another person talking about them.
Tanguy Crusson：显然这确实有作用，我已经看到这种情况发生在人们无法从另一个人谈论他们的镜头中当场投射和发明一些东西的时候。
So they might be able to talk about, "I did this, I did that, I did that.
所以他们也许可以谈论，“我做了这个，我做了那个，我做了那个。
So when I talk ...
所以当我说话时...
"Who was your boss?
“你的老板是谁？
My boss was ...
我的老板是...
So when I ask this person, what do you think they're going to say?" It's like, "Ah, well actually, I was only leading a part of it and maybe you shouldn't call them because XYZ."
所以当我问这个人时，你认为他们会说什么？”就像是，“啊，实际上，我只领导了其中的一部分，也许你不应该因为 XYZ 而打电话给他们。”
Tanguy Crusson: That part makes people all of a sudden go out of this scripted version they give of themselves and become more real for a second.
Tanguy Crusson：这部分让人们突然脱离了他们给自己的脚本版本，变得更加真实。
You get a bit of the authenticity coming out, which often is very hard to get to for me in interview questions.
你会得到一些真实性，这对我来说在面试问题中通常很难得到。
I've seen it happen.
我已经看到它发生了。
I find that very funny to do now because people get really uneasy for a second and then you get to something real.
我觉得现在这样做很有趣，因为人们会暂时感到不安，然后你就会得到一些真实的东西。
Lenny Rachitsky: That is genius.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：那是天才。
Makes so much sense.
很有道理。
Makes me wonder how I can integrate this tip into my podcast interviews.
让我想知道如何将这个技巧融入到我的播客采访中。
Really good tip.
真的很好的提示。
Next question, do you have a favorite product you've recently discovered that you really love?
下一个问题，您最近发现有一款您真正喜欢的最喜欢的产品吗？
Tanguy Crusson: Yeah, it's got nothing with tech, nothing to do with tech.
Tanguy Crusson：是的，这与科技无关，与科技无关。
I'm kite surfing a lot at the moment and I came across hydrofoils, which is basically these things where there's an airplane underneath you on a mast which is connected to a board.
我现在经常玩风筝冲浪，我遇到了水翼艇，基本上就是这样的东西，在你下面的桅杆上有一架飞机，桅杆与木板相连。
You're on the board with your kite and you basically just fly over the water.
你带着风筝站在板上，基本上只是飞过水面。
Tanguy Crusson: That invention is just brilliant.
Tanguy Crusson：这项发明真是太棒了。
It's relatively easy to learn and I can spend basically, parts of my weekend flying over water in as much as a breeze of wind because there's absolutely zero friction between the board and the water.
它相对容易学习，我周末的部分时间基本上可以在微风中飞过水面，因为板和水之间的摩擦力绝对为零。
So that's, technically speaking I think is genius the way they created that and inspiring themselves from airplanes.
所以，从技术上讲，我认为他们创造这一点并从飞机中汲取灵感的方式是天才。
Lenny Rachitsky: Is that the thing that Zuck was riding with his sunscreen with the flag or is that something else?
Lenny Rachitsky：这是扎克骑着带有旗帜的防晒霜的东西还是其他东西？
I don't know if you saw that photo.
我不知道你是否看过那张照片。
Don't worry about it.
别担心。
Lenny Rachitsky: I like that you say it's relatively easy to learn even though there's a kite on you pulling you in the water on this thing that's above the water.
Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢你说它相对容易学习，即使你身上有一只风筝，在水面以上的东西上把你拉到水中。
I don't know if I believe you.
我不知道我是否相信你。
Tanguy Crusson: Yeah.
唐吉·克鲁森：是的。
I mean, there's sports and crafts that are difficult to learn.
我的意思是，有些运动和手工艺是很难学的。
This one you can get comfortable in 18 months to two years, which is really, really short.
这个你可以在 18 个月到两年内适应，这真的非常非常短。
It could be a sport that you would have done before.
这可能是一项您以前做过的运动。
Lenny Rachitsky: Just a couple of years.
Lenny Rachitsky：仅仅几年。
Okay.
好的。
I like your bar for ...
我喜欢你的酒吧...
I'm going to ask a question along these lines, but before we get there, do you have a favorite life motto that you often come back to, find useful in work or in life, maybe share with friends and family?
我要问一个这样的问题，但在我们开始之前，您是否有一个最喜欢的人生格言，您经常回顾，发现在工作或生活中有用，也许与朋友和家人分享？
Tanguy Crusson: I've got two, one for work and one for everything in life.
Tanguy Crusson：我有两份，一份用于工作，一份用于生活中的一切。
The one for work is initially a quote from Obama.
工作的一开始是奥巴马的一句话。
I can't remember the exact quote.
我不记得确切的引用了。
I'm going to paraphrase, but let's keep it about the work.
我要解释一下，但我们还是把它放在工作上吧。
So there's going to be moments in your career where you don't feel valued and you wonder, "Am I doing the right thing?
因此，在你的职业生涯中，有时你会感到自己没有受到重视，你会想：“我做的事情正确吗？
Am I being recognized?
我被认出来了吗？
Am I valued?
我有价值吗？
Am I at the right place?" Whenever that happens, a lot of parasitic thoughts may come in.
我来对地方了吗？”每当这种情况发生时，很多寄生的想法就会出现。
You may face imposter syndrome and stuff like that.
您可能会面临冒名顶替综合症之类的问题。
Happens to me super regularly.
我经常发生这种情况。
Tanguy Crusson: Whenever that happens, what I do is I remind myself, "Keep it about the work," because as long as you make it about the work there's always work to be done and there's always a path that emerges from that work.
Tanguy Crusson：每当这种情况发生时，我都会提醒自己，“把注意力集中在工作上”，因为只要你把注意力集中在工作上，就总会有工作要做，而且总会有一条从工作中出现的道路。
It's a bit of the same of this, you've got this thing in yoga where once you're committed good things will happen.
这有点相同，瑜伽中有这样的东西，一旦你致力于，好事就会发生。
Well, that's exactly what I've seen and that's helped me every time.
嗯，这正是我所看到的，并且每次都对我有帮助。
I reread this quote whenever I'm in these moments of turmoil around me.
每当我处于周围混乱的时刻时，我都会重读这句话。
Tanguy Crusson: Now when I face those moments I also remind myself of the other one, which I invented, but I don't think I'm the only one who has invented that one, which is, "Remember that in 100 years we'll all be dead and forgotten.
Tanguy Crusson：现在，当我面对这些时刻时，我也会提醒自己另一个是我发明的，但我不认为我是唯一发明这个时刻的人，那就是，“记住，100 年后我们都会死去并被遗忘。
So don't take yourself too seriously.
所以别把自己太当回事。
You're not that important.
你没那么重要。
You're probably not that important, as important as you think for the people that you are arguing with."
对于与你争论的人来说，你可能没有你想象的那么重要。”
Tanguy Crusson: That's also the beauty in all things, which is it has an end.
Tanguy Crusson：这也是万物之美，那就是它有结束。
In the end it probably doesn't matter so might as well give it your best shot.
最后，这可能并不重要，所以不妨尽力而为。
That's what the existentialists back in France many generations ago were talking about.
这就是许多代以前的法国存在主义者所谈论的。
This point is close to Albert Camus' thesis, right?
这一点很接近加缪的论点，对吗？
"If it doesn't make sense might as well go for it."
“如果没有意义，那就去吧。”
Lenny Rachitsky: Really good points, really good lessons, really good mottos.
Lenny Rachitsky：非常好的观点，非常好的课程，非常好的座右铭。
Final question, you were ranked number four worldwide in a form of free diving.
最后一个问题，您在自由潜水方面排名全球第四。
First of all, can you briefly describe what is free diving and then can you share one thing that might surprise someone about the sport and the skill?
首先，您能简要描述一下什么是自由潜水，然后您能分享一件可能会让人们对这项运动和这项技术感到惊讶的事情吗？
Tanguy Crusson: Yeah.
唐吉·克鲁森：是的。
So yes, that's my claim to fame.
所以，是的，这就是我的成名之道。
I was ranked number four in basically, the distance you can swim in a swimming pool without fins with 167 meters, which is 550 feet.
我基本上排名第四，在没有脚蹼的游泳池中可以游泳的距离为 167 米，即 550 英尺。
Tanguy Crusson: Underwater breaststroke.
Tanguy Crusson：水下蛙泳。
I went further with the monofin, the thing you see back there, but breaststroke was one meter away from the French record and ranking number four worldwide that year.
我用单蹼走得更远，就像你在后面看到的那样，但蛙泳距离法国纪录和当年世界排名第四还差一米。
The one I'm most proud of is I actually went to 300 feet underwater deep, came back in one piece and I really enjoyed the whole thing.
最令我自豪的是，我实际上潜入了 300 英尺深的水下，完整地回来了，我真的很享受整个过程。
Lenny Rachitsky: Oh, geez.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：哦，天哪。
I'm trying to imagine what that is like compared to a Statue of Liberty or something like that, but I'll look that up later.
我试图想象与自由女神像或类似的东西相比是什么样子，但我稍后会查一下。
Tanguy Crusson: I look at buildings one.
Tanguy Crusson：我看一号楼。
Buildings can be as little as 20, 30 meters and can go super higher, but 90 meters is pretty high, yeah.
建筑物可以低至 20 米、30 米，也可以超高，但 90 米已经相当高了，是的。
Last time I looked at a building like that, I can't remember which one it was, but it's pretty high.
上次我看到这样的建筑时，我不记得是哪一栋了，但它相当高。
So it's take one breath, go down, touch the bottom plate on the rope and then come back up.
所以需要吸一口气，下去，接触绳子上的底板，然后再回来。
Tanguy Crusson: One thing that may surprise people with this is that everyone is much more gifted at it than they think.
Tanguy Crusson：可能会让人们感到惊讶的一件事是，每个人在这方面的天赋都比他们想象的要多得多。
So I used to give courses on the weekend for free diving and most people when I ask them, "Hey, how long do you think you can be underwater?" And they tell me something like 30 seconds, maybe a minute.
所以我曾经在周末开设自由潜水课程，当我问大多数人时，“嘿，你认为你可以在水下多长时间？”他们告诉我大约 30 秒，也许一分钟。
"How deep you think can you go?
“你认为你能走多深？
Ah, maybe five meters."
啊，也许有五米。”
Tanguy Crusson: At the end of the weekend most people were able to hold their breath for two to three minutes and to go to 20 meters deep.
Tanguy Crusson：周末结束时，大多数人能够屏住呼吸两到三分钟并进入 20 米深的地方。
So it's one of those things where it looks absolutely impressive and crazy and amazing and in fact we're naturally gifted to it.
所以它是那些看起来绝对令人印象深刻、疯狂和令人惊奇的事情之一，事实上我们天生就有这方面的天赋。
There's a lot of physiological changes that happen when we dive that make it possible, but I think it's fascinating how little we know about our bodies.
当我们潜水时会发生很多生理变化，这使得潜水成为可能，但我认为令人着迷的是我们对自己的身体知之甚少。
Lenny Rachitsky: I'm looking up what is 300 feet compared to real-life objects on perplexity.
Lenny Rachitsky：我正在通过困惑度来查找与现实生活中的物体相比 300 英尺的距离。
So what is 300 feet compared to real-life objects?
那么 300 英尺与现实生活中的物体相比是多少呢？
Here we go, 300 feet.
我们来了，300 英尺。
The length of a football field.
一个足球场的长度。
Okay, yeah.
好吧，是的。
I should have realized that.
我应该意识到这一点。
Close to the length of a Boeing 737.
接近波音 737 的长度。
Tanguy Crusson: Yeah.
唐吉·克鲁森：是的。
You need to look at it this way to get some perspective.
你需要这样看待它才能获得一些视角。
Lenny Rachitsky: ...
莱尼·拉奇茨基：……
Jesus Christ.
耶稣基督。
Oh, my God.
哦，天啊。
But I love your advice that people can do much better at the skill than they think.
但我喜欢你的建议，即人们可以在技能上做得比他们想象的更好。
Tanguy Crusson: Yeah.
唐吉·克鲁森：是的。
Everyone from kids to adults are really amazing at it actually.
事实上，从孩子到成人，每个人都对此感到非常惊奇。
Lenny Rachitsky: Tanguy, we've covered so much ground.
Lenny Rachitsky：Tanguy，我们已经讨论了很多内容。
I think this is going to help a lot of people that are trying to get better at free diving, but also at building zero to one within large companies.
我认为这将帮助很多想要提高自由潜水水平的人，同时也帮助他们在大公司内从零到一。
I am so thankful that you made time for this and that you shared some into this real talk and as you called it, therapy.
我非常感谢你抽出时间来做这件事，并在这次真正的谈话中分享了一些内容，正如你所说的，治疗。
Lenny Rachitsky: Two final questions.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：最后两个问题。
Where can folks find you online if they want to reach out, maybe follow up on some of the stuff you talked about and how can listeners be useful to you?
如果人们想联系您，或者想跟进您谈论的一些内容，可以在哪里找到您？听众如何对您有用？
Tanguy Crusson: Yeah, so you can find me on LinkedIn if you know how to ...
Tanguy Crusson：是的，如果您知道如何...，您可以在 LinkedIn 上找到我。
You don't need to know how to pronounce my name.
你不需要知道我的名字怎么发音。
You just need to know how to write it.
你只需要知道如何写即可。
I'm not super active on social media to be honest.
老实说，我在社交媒体上并不是非常活跃。
I'm very much in the trenches building this product so I don't do much in terms of networking to be fair, but if you are using this product for example, and you have ideas for how we can improve it for you or you'd like to share some stories about how that's helped you or how it's not helping you, I'd love to connect because I spend a large part of my days talking to users, responding to support tickets and stuff like that.
我非常致力于构建这个产品，所以公平地说，我在网络方面没有做太多事情，但是如果您正在使用这个产品，并且您对我们如何为您改进它有想法，或者您想分享一些关于它如何帮助您或如何没有帮助您的故事，我很乐意与您联系，因为我每天大部分时间都在与用户交谈，回复支持票证之类的事情。
So, yeah.
所以，是的。
Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
Tanguy, thank you so much for being here.
唐吉，非常感谢你来到这里。
Tanguy Crusson: Thank you, Lenny.
唐吉·克鲁森：谢谢你，莱尼。
Honestly, it's been amazing and I hope some of my gibberish is useful to people.
老实说，这真是太棒了，我希望我的一些胡言乱语对人们有用。
Lenny Rachitsky: Definitely not gibberish.
Lenny Rachitsky：绝对不是胡言乱语。
I think it's going to help a lot of people.
我认为这会对很多人有帮助。
With that, I'll let you go.
有了这个，我就放你走了。
Bye, everyone.
再见，大家。
Lenny Rachitsky: Thank you so much for listening.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：非常感谢您的聆听。
If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or your favorite podcast app.
如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。
Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.
另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。
You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.
您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。
See you in the next episode.
下一集见。