Lessons in product leadership and AI strategy from Glean, Google, Amazon, and Slack | Tamar Yehoshua

Tamar Yehoshua: Make sure you go somewhere where you have a good engineering partner.

Tamar Yehoshua：确保您去的地方有良好的工程合作伙伴。

Because if you have great ideas of what to build but you can't get them built, then you go nowhere.

因为如果你对要构建什么有很好的想法，但你无法实现它们，那么你将一事无成。

So that has to be part of your evaluation criteria that you meet and value your engineering partner before you join.

因此，这必须成为您在加入之前满足并重视您的工程合作伙伴的评估标准的一部分。

And then I think what's really important is that you're aligned.

然后我认为真正重要的是你们保持一致。

You understand your roles and responsibilities and where you're going to divide and conquer and where you're going to be aligned.

您了解自己的角色和责任，以及您将在哪些方面分而治之，以及您将在哪些方面保持一致。

You don't want any of this ...

这些你都不想要...

Like people in the organization, they ask mom, they asked dad and they got different opinions and playing one against the other.

就像组织里的人一样，他们问妈妈，问爸爸，他们得到了不同的意见，并相互对立。

That doesn't work.

那是行不通的。

Lenny Rachitsky: Today, my guest is Tamar Yehoshua.

Lenny Rachitsky：今天，我的客人是 Tamar Yehoshua。

Tamar is currently president of product and technology at Glean, one of the most successful enterprise AI companies out there right now.

Tamar 目前是 Glean 的产品和技术总裁，该公司是目前最成功的企业人工智能公司之一。

Prior to joining Glean, Tamar was chief product officer at Slack for four years where she led product design and research as the company scaled 10Xed their revenue, went through IPO and then got bought by Salesforce.

在加入 Glean 之前，Tamar 在 Slack 担任了四年的首席产品官，领导产品设计和研究，帮助该公司将收入扩大了 10 倍，完成了 IPO，然后被 Salesforce 收购。

Tamar also led product and engineering teams at Google, where for many years she was responsible for the Google search experience.

Tamar 还领导过 Google 的产品和工程团队，多年来一直负责 Google 搜索体验。

She also spent five years at Amazon as director of engineering and vice president at A9.com.

她还在亚马逊工作了五年，担任工程总监和 A9.com 副总裁。

She was also a venture partner at IVP and has been on board of directors for ServiceNow, Snyk, RetailMeNot, and Yext.

她还是 IVP 的风险合伙人，并曾担任 ServiceNow、Snyk、RetailMeNot 和 Yext 的董事会成员。

In our conversation, we get into all kinds of juicy advice, including why companies don't have to be run well to win, why you don't need a career plan, the two habits she credits most for helping her succeed throughout her career, what she learned from Jeff Bezos and Stewart Butterfield and Marc Benioff, how to build stronger cross-functional relationships and a bunch of advice on AI including how it will likely change your jobs, examples of how she and her colleagues are already using AI to be more productive in their work and what she's learned about building AI-based products that are non-deterministic and can be very unpredictable.

在我们的谈话中，我们得到了各种有趣的建议，包括为什么公司不一定要经营得好才能获胜，为什么你不需要职业规划，她最认为帮助她在整个职业生涯中取得成功的两个习惯，她从杰夫·贝索斯、斯图尔特·巴特菲尔德和马克·贝尼奥夫那里学到的东西，如何建立更牢固的跨职能关系，以及一系列关于人工智能的建议，包括人工智能将如何改变你的工作，她和她的同事已经如何使用人工智能来提高工作效率的例子。工作以及她在构建基于人工智能的产品方面所学到的知识，这些产品具有不确定性且非常不可预测。

Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is for anyone looking to level up as a leader and get a better sense of how AI will change your job.

Lenny Rachitsky：本集适合任何想要提升领导者级别并更好地了解人工智能将如何改变你的工作的人。

If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube.

如果您喜欢这个播客，请不要忘记订阅并在您最喜欢的播客应用程序或 YouTube 中关注它。

It's the best way to avoid missing future episodes and it helps the podcast tremendously.

这是避免错过未来剧集的最佳方式，并且对播客有很大帮助。

With that, I bring you Tamar Yehoshua.

接下来，我为您带来塔玛·耶霍舒亚 (Tamar Yehoshua)。

Lenny Rachitsky: Tamar, thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast.

Lenny Rachitsky：Tamar，非常感谢您来到这里，欢迎来到播客。

Tamar Yehoshua: Thank you so much for having me.

Tamar Yehoshua：非常感谢您邀请我。

Lenny Rachitsky: I've had so many people recommend you coming on this podcast.

Lenny Rachitsky：很多人推荐你来参加这个播客。

I'm really happy that we're finally doing this.

我真的很高兴我们终于做到了这一点。

I want to start with a question that I've started to ask people who have had extraordinarily successful careers, which you've had.

我想从一个问题开始，我开始问那些拥有非常成功职业生涯的人，就像你们一样。

So let me ask you, what are one or two specific skills or mindsets or habits that you think most contributed to your success during the course of your career that you think might be helpful to people who are trying to figure out how to accelerate their career or just be more successful in their career?

那么，让我问您，您认为在职业生涯中对您的成功最有帮助的一两个具体技能、心态或习惯是什么，您认为这些技能、心态或习惯可能对那些试图找出如何加速职业生涯或只是在职业生涯中取得更大成功的人有帮助？

Tamar Yehoshua: One of the things that I think is overlooked is do a really good job at whatever your job is at that point.

Tamar Yehoshua：我认为被忽视的一件事是，无论你当时的工作是什么，都要做得很好。

People have a tendency ...

人们有一种倾向...

Especially product managers are very ambitious and they want to get to the next level and they're always eyeing the next job, but you're not going to get the next job unless you do really well at the job that you're in.

尤其是产品经理非常雄心勃勃，他们想要达到一个新的水平，他们总是关注下一份工作，但除非你在当前的工作中做得很好，否则你不会得到下一份工作。

Knock it out of the park.

把它赶出公园。

However simple, however easy it may be to you, do a great job.

无论多么简单，无论对您来说多么容易，都要做得很好。

And in tech jobs, there's table stakes.

在科技工作中，也存在赌注。

There's table stakes of you need to be technical, you need to know the latest technology, you need to understand your product, the product you're working on.

你需要掌握技术，你需要了解最新的技术，你需要了解你的产品，你正在开发的产品。

No matter what your role is.

无论你的角色是什么。

You have to understand it deeply.

你必须深刻地理解它。

You need to understand metrics.

您需要了解指标。

So especially product managers have a wide breadth of things that they need to understand.

因此，产品经理尤其需要了解很多东西。

So those are a given.

所以这些都是给定的。

You need to do that.

你需要这样做。

Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by Explo, a game changer for customer facing analytics and data reporting.

Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 Explo 为您带来，Explo 是面向客户的分析和数据报告的游戏规则改变者。

Are your users craving more dashboards, reports and analytics within your product?

您的用户是否渴望在您的产品中添加更多仪表板、报告和分析？

Are you tired of trying to build it yourself?

您是否厌倦了尝试自己构建它？

As a product leader, you probably have these requests in your roadmap, but the struggle to prioritize them is real.

作为产品领导者，您的路线图中可能有这些请求，但确定它们的优先级的困难是真实存在的。

Building analytics from scratch can be time-consuming, expensive, and a really challenging process.

从头开始构建分析可能非常耗时、昂贵，而且是一个非常具有挑战性的过程。

Enter Explo.

输入爆炸。

Explo is a fully white labeled embedded analytics solution designed entirely with your user in mind.

Explo 是一款完全白标的嵌入式分析解决方案，其设计完全考虑到您的用户。

Getting started is easy.

入门很容易。

Explo connects to any relational database or warehouse, and with its low-code functionality, you can build and style dashboards in minutes.

Explo 连接到任何关系数据库或仓库，凭借其低代码功能​​，您可以在几分钟内构建仪表板并设计仪表板样式。

Once you're ready, simply embed the dashboard or report into your application with a tiny code snippet.

准备就绪后，只需使用一小段代码将仪表板或报告嵌入到您的应用程序中即可。

The best part, your end users can use Explo's AI features for their own report and dashboard generation, eliminating customer data requests for your support team.

最好的部分是，您的最终用户可以使用 Explo 的 AI 功能来生成自己的报告和仪表板，从而消除对支持团队的客户数据请求。

Build and embed a fully white labeled analytics experience in days.

在几天内构建并嵌入完全白标的分析体验。

Try it for free at explo.co/lenny.

请访问 explo.co/lenny 免费试用。

That's E-X-P-L-O.C-O/lenny.

那是 E-X-P-L-O.C-O/lenny。

Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by Sprig.

Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 Sprig 为您带来。

What if product teams knew exactly what to build to reach their goals?

如果产品团队确切地知道要构建什么来实现他们的目标呢？

From increasing conversion to boosting engagement, these challenges require a deep understanding of your users, something that you can't get from product analytics alone.

从提高转化率到提高参与度，这些挑战需要对用户有深入的了解，这是单靠产品分析无法获得的。

Meet Sprig, a product experience platform that generates AI powered opportunities to continuously improve your product at scale.

Sprig 是一个产品体验平台，可生成人工智能驱动的机会，以持续大规模改进您的产品。

First, Sprig captures your product experience in real time through heat maps, replays, surveys, and feedback studies, then Sprig's industry leading AI instantly analyzes all of your product experience data to generate real-time insights.

首先，Sprig 通过热图、重播、调查和反馈研究实时捕获您的产品体验，然后 Sprig 行业领先的 AI 立即分析您的所有产品体验数据以生成实时见解。

Sprig AI goes even further with actionable product recommendations to drive revenue, retention, and user satisfaction.

Sprig AI 更进一步，提供可操作的产品建议，以提高收入、保留率和用户满意度。

Join product teams at Figma and at Notion by uncovering AI powered product opportunities at scale.

加入 Figma 和 Notion 的产品团队，大规模发现人工智能驱动的产品机会。

Visit sprig.com/lenny to book a demo and get a $75 gift card.

请访问 sprig.com/lenny 预订演示并获得 75 美元的礼品卡。

S-P-R-I-G dot com/lenny.

S-P-R-I-G .com/lenny。

Tamar Yehoshua: So now the question is the difference in leadership and executive roles and when you're getting there.

Tamar Yehoshua：所以现在的问题是领导力和执行力角色的差异以及何时到达那里。

So how do you start transitioning?

那么你如何开始转型呢？

So after you've done a great job at everything and you understand the core skills that you need, another thing you really need to know is understanding people and motivations.

因此，在您出色完成所有工作并了解所需的核心技能之后，您真正需要了解的另一件事是了解他人和动机。

And when you're building products, you have to understand why does somebody want to use your product?

当你构建产品时，你必须了解为什么有人想要使用你的产品？

What problem are they solving?

他们正在解决什么问题？

Why do they want to click on that button?

他们为什么要点击该按钮？

What's going to make them feel good when they click on it?

当他们点击它时，什么会让他们感觉良好？

What's going to give them delight and what's also going to make them feel bad and frustrated and what do they not want to do?

什么会让他们高兴，什么又会让他们感到难过和沮丧，什么是他们不想做的？

So you need to understand motivations in people for building products and for building teams and organizations.

因此，您需要了解人们构建产品以及构建团队和组织的动机。

So just like why does somebody want to click on a button, why does somebody want to join your team?

就像为什么有人想点击按钮一样，为什么有人想加入你的团队？

Why do they want to work hard?

他们为什么要努力工作？

What are they trying to accomplish?

他们想要实现什么目标？

What's the goal for their career?

他们的职业目标是什么？

Tamar Yehoshua: So you have to be able to read people, ask lots of questions to understand them.

Tamar Yehoshua：所以你必须能够读懂别人，提出很多问题才能理解他们。

And I'll say one thing that really helped me, this is a strange segue, but my father was a psychiatrist and when I was growing up, we would have family occasions, go to events, whatever, and afterwards in the car ride back, he would always give his perspective of analyzing what happened at the event.

我要说一件对我真正有帮助的事情，这是一个奇怪的转折，但我的父亲是一名精神科医生，在我成长的过程中，我们会有家庭聚会，参加活动，等等，然后在开车回来时，他总是会给出他的观点来分析活动中发生的事情。

What this person was thinking.

这个人到底在想什么。

Why did they say this?

他们为什么这么说？

And then he would quiz me of, "Why do you think they did that?" And it was really interesting because it taught me to see the whole room.

然后他会问我：“你认为他们为什么这么做？”这真的很有趣，因为它教会我观察整个房间。

To see how people react.

看看人们如何反应。

Like Lenny, if you say something and somebody else is there, look at the other person.

就像莱尼一样，如果你说话时有人在场，请看着对方。

What's their face saying?

他们的表情在说什么？

You can understand so much if you're paying attention.

只要你用心，你就能明白很多。

So I think when you want to build for people and lead organizations, it is about the people and understanding them and motivating them.

因此，我认为，当你想要为人民而建设并领导组织时，关键在于人民、理解他们并激励他们。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love this advice.

Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢这个建议。

I feel like we could do a whole podcast on just this topic.

我觉得我们可以就这个主题制作一个完整的播客。

So on this last point about understanding people, is there an example of this in either a product you built of just like, "Oh, here's something I noticed about someone using Slack or Google or Amazon that changed the way I think about building this specific feature."?

那么，关于理解人的最后一点，在你构建的产品中是否有这样的例子，“哦，我注意到有人使用 Slack、Google 或 Amazon，这改变了我构建这个特定功能的方式。”？

Tamar Yehoshua: One of the things that I caution product managers about is that you don't want to be too overly reliant on metrics and you want to also have an intuition.

Tamar Yehoshua：我提醒产品经理的一件事是，你不想过于过度依赖指标，并且你还希望拥有直觉。

You want product managers who understand intuitively their customers and their product and sometimes you'll make decisions because you just know it's the right thing to do because it feels right and it usually is right if you understand your product well enough.

你需要产品经理能够直观地了解他们的客户和他们的产品，有时你会做出决定，因为你知道这是正确的事情，因为感觉是正确的，而且如果你足够了解你的产品，它通常是正确的。

How do you get good at it?

你怎样才能擅长呢？

Ask a lot of questions.

问很多问题。

Don't assume you know.

别以为你知道。

Marc Benioff would always say, "Have a beginner's mind.

马克·贝尼奥夫总是说：“要有初学者的心态。

Go in assuming that you know nothing and listen to your customers, listen to the people." Because I also see this as you're building a feature and you think it's the best thing.

假设你一无所知，倾听你的客户、倾听人们的声音。”因为我也看到了这一点，因为你正在构建一个功能，并且你认为这是最好的事情。

Because of course everyone's going to want it because you worked on it and you're going to put it front and center in the interface where everybody's going to see it.

因为当然每个人都会想要它，因为你致力于它并且你将把它放在界面的前面和中间，每个人都会看到它。

Well, no, you got to earn that right.

好吧，不，你必须赢得这个权利。

And that is another thing that people do is they want the thing they worked on to be right there, but it might not be the most important thing that a person needs at that point.

人们做的另一件事是他们希望他们所做的事情就在那里，但这可能不是一个人当时需要的最重要的事情。

So have perspective.

所以要有远见。

Have perspective of what your users are actually trying to achieve.

了解用户实际想要实现的目标。

Lenny Rachitsky: Going back to your first point about doing a great job at the job you have, I imagine some people hear this and the advice is do a great job at the job you're already doing, and they may feel like they are, and there's other reasons they aren't being promoted.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：回到你关于在现有工作中出色完成工作的第一点，我想有些人听到这个建议时，会在你已经在做的工作中出色完成工作，他们可能会觉得自己是出色的，但他们没有得到晋升还有其他原因。

Is there an example from your career or a story you could tell of just like to clarify what doing a great job look like where it's not just like I hit my goals.

有没有你职业生涯中的例子或者你可以讲述的故事，以阐明如何做好一份出色的工作，而不只是实现我的目标。

It's like, here's what it looks like.

就像，这就是它的样子。

Here's how you actually get ahead.

这就是您真正取得成功的方法。

Tamar Yehoshua: Are you helping the business move forward?

Tamar Yehoshua：您正在帮助业务向前发展吗？

So it's not about I achieve what I was asked to do, but did you build something that people actually used?

所以这不是我实现了我被要求做的事情，而是你是否构建了人们实际使用的东西？

It's not about just launching something and did you do the right thing for the company?

这不仅仅是推出一些东西，你是否为公司做了正确的事情？

And that is different.

那是不同的。

It's a different mindset.

这是一种不同的心态。

Did you enable the entire organization to be more productive despite you?

尽管有你的影响，你是否使整个组织变得更加高效？

I remember very early in my career I was working as an engineer and I was offered a job to manage a team that was across different programs.

我记得在我职业生涯的早期，我是一名工程师，我得到了一份管理跨不同项目的团队的工作。

I took a vacation, I came back and I said, "I don't think this team should exist." It was my first management job and I wanted to be a manager.

我休假了，回来后我说：“我认为这个团队不应该存在。”这是我的第一份管理工作，我想成为一名经理。

And I said, "Here's why I don't think that this team should exist.

我说：“这就是为什么我认为这个团队不应该存在。

It's not the right thing for the company.

这对公司来说不是正确的事情。

It's not going to be productive." And my manager was so stunned.

这不会有成效。”我的经理非常震惊。

He was like, "Wait.

他就像是，“等等。

You're saying no?" I'm like, "Yeah, because here's how you should organize it." And then he's like, "You're right, and I'll find you something else," and he did.

你说不？”我想，“是的，因为这就是你应该如何组织它的方式。”然后他说，“你是对的，我会给你找别的东西，”他确实这么做了。

Lenny Rachitsky: If I were to put this into one word, it's impact.

Lenny Rachitsky：如果我用一个词来形容的话，那就是影响力。

Drive impact.

推动影响。

Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

Okay.

好的。

Going in a different direction, we were chatting before we started recording this and something that you shared with me, and some people may be really surprised to hear this, but I completely agree with this take, is that you don't need to be a well-run business to win.

朝不同的方向发展，在开始录制这个以及您与我分享的内容之前我们正在聊天，有些人听到这个可能会感到非常惊讶，但我完全同意这个观点，即您不需要成为一家经营良好的企业才能获胜。

I've seen this myself.

我自己也见过这个。

I'd love to hear your insights here and especially where you notice this.

我很想听听您的见解，尤其是您注意到这一点的地方。

What parts of your career noticed this to be true?

您职业生涯的哪些部分注意到这是真的？

Tamar Yehoshua: I love working at well-run companies.

Tamar Yehoshua：我喜欢在经营良好的公司工作。

It's more fun, your people are happier.

这更有趣，你的人民也更快乐。

I like running a well-run team, so I aspire to have a very well run team and to work at a well run company.

我喜欢管理一个运作良好的团队，所以我渴望拥有一个运作良好的团队并在一家运作良好的公司工作。

But what I've seen is when a company isn't well run like IT isn't working, marketing is broken, there are not enough people in HR, there's a lot of turnover.

但我所看到的是，当一家公司运营不佳时，比如 IT 无法正常工作、营销失灵、人力资源部门人员不足、人员流动率很高等。

All of these things I've seen that they're not correlated to the company being successful.

我发现所有这些事情与公司的成功无关。

So I can think of a couple examples right now of companies I know ...

所以我现在可以想到一些我所知道的公司的例子......

Not Glean, where I'm working today.

不是我今天工作的地方 Glean。

Where there's high executive turnover.

高管流动率较高的地方。

Where people get yelled at.

人们被骂的地方。

There are lots of people fired.

有很多人被解雇。

There's reorgs all the time.

重组一直在进行。

People I talk to are super unhappy, but the numbers are amazing.

与我交谈的人都非常不高兴，但数字是惊人的。

They're growing like crazy.

他们疯狂地成长。

And the opposite sit is also true.

反坐亦然。

I can think of one company I know really well, amazing, CEO, well run, well oiled machine, everything.

我能想到一家我非常了解的公司，令人惊叹的首席执行官，运营良好，机器运转良好，一切。

Hired good executives and they flat lined.

聘请了优秀的高管，但他们却表现平平。

Tamar Yehoshua: So you just see it.

Tamar Yehoshua：所以你只看到它。

You see it over and over again and people get very upset about these things that aren't working.

你会一遍又一遍地看到这种情况，人们会对这些不起作用的事情感到非常沮丧。

And one of the things that I try and do is give a perspective of what matters and what doesn't.

我尝试做的事情之一就是给出什么是重要的、什么是不重要的观点。

And it might even be to the sales team because you get all these requests for features all the time.

甚至可能是销售团队，因为您一直收到所有这些功能请求。

If you did every single one, it would be impossible.

如果每一项都做的话，那是不可能的。

Even if you did, 80, 90% of them won't matter for the success of the company.

即使你这样做了，其中的 80%、90% 对公司的成功也没有什么影响。

But then there are some that really matter.

但还有一些真正重要的事情。

So what are the things that really matter?

那么什么是真正重要的事情呢？

We always talk about product market fit.

我们总是谈论产品市场契合度。

Nobody really knows what product market fit is.

没有人真正知道什么是产品市场契合度。

Everybody has a different explanation, but it means people want to use your product.

每个人都有不同的解释，但这意味着人们想使用你的产品。

That they're clamoring for it.

他们正在大声疾呼。

So you've built something that people value and that people value and that solves a problem for them, but that's also not good enough.

因此，你已经构建了人们重视的东西，并且为他们解决了问题，但这还不够好。

You need to build a great product, but you also have to have distribution and you need to have a sales team that works.

您需要打造出色的产品，但您还必须拥有分销渠道，并且需要拥有一支有效的销售团队。

And you have to have enough money in the bank to get there.

而且你必须在银行里有足够的钱才能到达那里。

So those are probably the things that are the most important.

所以这些可能是最重要的事情。

I might be missing something.

我可能错过了一些东西。

Tamar Yehoshua: And then within each of those, there's the things that really mattered and there's so many features that we built at Slack that were the most important features ever that failed and nobody used so it clearly didn't have an impact.

Tamar Yehoshua：在每一个中，都有真正重要的事情，我们在 Slack 构建了很多功能，这些功能是有史以来最重要的功能，但失败了，没有人使用，所以它显然没有产生影响。

And you can see that in retrospect, but I think after being at multiple different big companies and small companies, I have that perspective of let's just make sure that we do the right things and don't get too worked up about all the things that are broken because every startup has so many things that are broken.

回想起来，你可以看到这一点，但我认为在多家不同的大公司和小公司工作过之后，我的观点是，让我们确保我们做正确的事情，不要对所有被破坏的事情过于兴奋，因为每个初创公司都有很多被破坏的事情。

Lenny Rachitsky: So I think a really interesting insight here is that if you're working at a company that is just chaotic and it feels like we don't know what we're doing, I don't know how this thing is running, I don't know how this will continue to be successful, your experience is it ...

Lenny Rachitsky：所以我认为一个非常有趣的见解是，如果你在一家混乱的公司工作，感觉我们不知道自己在做什么，我不知道这件事是如何运行的，我不知道这将如何继续取得成功，你的经验就是......

Is it that most of the successful companies you've been at are just chaotic internally and aren't incredibly run and that's normal, that's very typical?

你曾经工作过的大多数成功公司是否只是内部混乱，运营效率不高，这很正常，很典型吗？

Tamar Yehoshua: Until they get to a certain scale.

Tamar Yehoshua：直到达到一定规模。

Now, once you reach a certain scale and you've already conquered the market, then you need to be well run.

现在，当你达到了一定的规模，你已经占领了市场，那么你就需要好好经营。

Then you bring in professional managers and things are about the cost and executing and getting all the ...

然后你引入职业经理人，问题就在于成本、执行和获得所有......

Once you get to over 5,000 people or 10,000 people, you got to have things that ...

一旦你的人数超过 5,000 人或 10,000 人，你就必须拥有......

Then you're a growth engine.

那么你就是一个增长引擎。

You have to know what phase you're in and what's important at that phase.

你必须知道自己处于哪个阶段以及该阶段什么是重要的。

So it isn't that at every phase, chaos is okay, and also some chaos is okay and some chaos is not okay.

所以并不是在每个阶段，混乱都是可以的，也不是有些混乱可以，有些混乱不行。

If you're changing your strategy all the time and you're changing your direction and you're changing projects on people all the time so that they can't actually achieve anything ...

如果你一直在改变你的策略，你正在改变你的方向，你一直在改变人们的项目，那么他们实际上无法实现任何目标......

So this is again, so you can't simplify it that some chaos is okay and some isn't.

所以这又是，所以你不能简化它，有些混乱是可以的，有些则不行。

And also some chaos is right for you as a person.

而且一些混乱也适合你作为一个人。

There are some really great companies I would never work at because they don't fit me.

有一些非常伟大的公司我永远不会工作，因为它们不适合我。

They're not a company I would enjoy going to work in the morning or they're not aligned with what I'm good at.

他们不是我喜欢早上上班的公司，或者他们与我擅长的领域不符。

So just because a company is doing well, if the chaos is chaos and something that's going to make you upset and unhappy don't work there.

因此，仅仅因为一家公司做得很好，如果混乱就是混乱，而那些会让你心烦意乱和不高兴的事情就在那里不起作用。

Lenny Rachitsky: Is there a correlation there?

Lenny Rachitsky：这里面有关联吗？

Just like companies that have strong product market fit, things are just breaking as they're going through hyper growth?

就像拥有强大产品市场契合度的公司一样，事情只是在经历高速增长时才发生变化？

Just thoughts on why this is the case.

只是思考为什么会出现这种情况。

Tamar Yehoshua: A lot of it is that because if you are in hyper growth, you've got customers coming at a really fast pace, you're growing your company really quickly and the number of employees and it's just really hard to keep up.

Tamar Yehoshua：很大程度上是因为如果你处于高速增长状态，你的客户会以非常快的速度增长，你的公司和员工数量也会很快增长，而且很难跟上。

Because things in the infrastructure break, things in the communication breakdown.

因为基础设施中的东西坏了，通信中的东西也崩溃了。

You've got at any given point 50% of the company has been there less than six months.

在任何特定时刻，公司 50% 的员工任职时间都少于六个月。

But you have to grow really fast because once you hit product market fit, if you don't, then your growth will stop.

但你必须快速增长，因为一旦你的产品达到了市场契合度，如果你不这样做，你的增长就会停止。

So if you're suddenly growing, especially if you're an enterprise company, you have to have salespeople, if you're a consumer company or systems have to keep running as you scale.

因此，如果您突然成长，特别是如果您是一家企业公司，则必须拥有销售人员；如果您是一家消费公司，则系统必须在规模扩大时保持运行。

And look at companies like MySpace, well, they died because their product got too slow.

看看像 MySpace 这样的公司，它们就因为产品速度太慢而消亡了。

And so some companies have initial product market fit and then they don't keep up.

因此，一些公司最初的产品适合市场，但后来却跟不上。

So I do think a lot of it is it's very hard to grow that fast.

所以我确实认为很大程度上是因为很难快速增长。

And so things really do start breaking, but then once you get all the right leadership in place, processes in place, then it starts to get better.

所以事情确实开始出现问题，但一旦你得到了所有正确的领导、流程，事情就会开始变得更好。

So it goes through ups and downs in level of chaos.

所以它的混乱程度会经历起起落落。

Lenny Rachitsky: There's one takeaway here that product market fit solves a lot of problems.

Lenny Rachitsky：这里有一个要点，即产品市场契合度可以解决很多问题。

Strong product market fit.

产品市场契合度强。

Tamar Yehoshua: Well, no product market fit is a death sentence.

Tamar Yehoshua：嗯，不适合市场​​的产品就等于被判了死刑。

I would say it more like that.

我会这样说。

If you built a product that people aren't really excited to use, then you don't have a company because it's very hard to do that unless you have distribution machine and then you catch up over time.

如果你开发了一款人们不太愿意使用的产品，那么你就没有一家公司，因为很难做到这一点，除非你有分发机器，然后随着时间的推移你会迎头赶上。

But we will not name companies like that.

但我们不会这样命名公司。

So there are other ways of doing it, but yeah, that is the most important thing.

所以还有其他方法可以做到这一点，但是，是的，这是最重要的。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。

I will say during my experience at Airbnb, I absolutely saw this.

我想说的是，在 Airbnb 的经历中，我绝对看到了这一点。

It was just nonstop chaos.

这只是不间断的混乱。

And I always felt like, well, how is this continuing to operate and succeed?

我总觉得，嗯，这如何继续运作并取得成功？

Things are just out of control.

事情已经失控了。

Everything's changing every six months.

每六个月一切就会发生变化。

I don't know what's happening here.

我不知道这里发生了什么事。

And I think a lesson here is just that's normal for a hyper growth business that has strong product market fit.

我认为这里的一个教训是，对于具有强大产品市场契合度的高速增长企业来说，这是正常的。

But again, not a good excuse to just allow chaos.

但同样，这并不是允许混乱的好借口。

And it's not like chaos means success, right?

混乱并不意味着成功，对吧？

Tamar Yehoshua: And it's not a good excuse to not have an organization that's functioning.

Tamar Yehoshua：这并不是一个组织无法正常运转的好借口。

You should still strive to have an organization that's functioning and keep people happy and motivated and all that.

你仍然应该努力建立一个运转良好的组织，让人们保持快乐和积极性等等。

Lenny Rachitsky: Great.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

Okay.

好的。

Another maybe contrarian opinion that you hold along the career track is that you don't need to plan your career.

您在职业生涯中持有的另一个可能相反的观点是，您不需要规划自己的职业生涯。

I also 100% agree with this.

我也百分百同意这一点。

I had no plan for my career.

我对自己的职业生涯没有任何规划。

I never knew where the hell I was going to go.

我从来不知道我到底要去哪里。

I never had this vision of here's what I want to do.

我从来没有想过这就是我想做的事情。

I just followed things that were pulling me and things that seemed interesting.

我只是关注那些吸引我的事情以及那些看起来有趣的事情。

I love that you also tell people this.

我喜欢你也告诉人们这一点。

I'd love to hear your insights here.

我很想在这里听到您的见解。

Especially for someone that's either struggling with their career or just stressed.

特别是对于那些在职业生涯中苦苦挣扎或只是承受压力的人来说。

They don't have a plan or their plan's not working the way they wanted it to.

他们没有计划，或者他们的计划没有按照他们想要的方式进行。

Tamar Yehoshua: Really recently I was talking to somebody in their twenties who was asking me for career advice.

Tamar Yehoshua：最近我正在和一个二十多岁的人交谈，他向我寻求职业建议。

Should I be a product manager, et cetera.

我应该成为产品经理吗？等等。

And I'm trying to put together my five-year plan and I said, "I never had a five-year plan." So to be clear, some people need that.

我正在努力制定我的五年计划，我说：“我从来没有制定过五年计划。”需要明确的是，有些人需要它。

That's the kind of people they are.

他们就是这样的人。

They want the planning.

他们想要规划。

I said, "It's great if you want that, but I never had it." And the person I was talking to just relaxed and they're like, "Oh my God, that's so great to hear because I have no idea what I want to do in five years." I'm like, "I still have no idea what I want to do in five years.

我说：“如果你想要的话那就太好了，但我从来没有得到过。”与我交谈的人很放松，他们说：“天啊，听到这个消息真是太好了，因为我不知道五年后我想做什么。”我想，“我仍然不知道五年后我想做什么。

I've never had an idea what I want to do in five years." Early in your career you have a lot more angst about it because the forks in the road are more significant because they can go, do I go get an MBA or do I go work for somebody?

我从来不知道五年后我想做什么。”在你职业生涯的早期，你对此会有更多的焦虑，因为道路上的岔路口更重要，因为它们可以走，我是去攻读 MBA 还是去为某人工作？

Do I be a product manager or an engineer?

我是产品经理还是工程师？

And those really take you in very different paths.

这些确实会带你走上截然不同的道路。

Tamar Yehoshua: And I meet a lot of kids in their ...

Tamar Yehoshua：我在他们的......中遇到了很多孩子。

I shouldn't call them kids.

我不应该称他们为孩子。

My kids are my kids' friends.

我的孩子是我孩子的朋友。

But a lot of people who are younger in their career who are struggling with this a little bit.

但很多职业生涯较年轻的人都在这个问题上遇到了一些困难。

So what I believe, and I've always believed is that you follow people.

所以我相信，而且我一直相信，你会追随人们。

You learn the most from people.

你从人身上学到最多。

I don't look for domains.

我不寻找域名。

Some people have a domain, like I'm super interested in climate or whatever and they really want to work in that area and that's fine so maybe within that area.

有些人有一个领域，比如我对气候或其他什么非常感兴趣，他们真的想在那个领域工作，这很好，所以也许在那个领域内。

But you follow people who are the best at what they do.

但你追随的人都是在他们所做的事情上最出色的人。

So it's not good enough to follow somebody who you like.

所以仅仅关注你喜欢的人是不够的。

You want to follow somebody who's either the best product thinker or the best engineer or the best salesperson.

你想追随最好的产品思考者、最好的工程师或最好的销售人员。

And so that you will learn the skill of how to be the best at that.

这样你就能学到如何在这方面做到最好的技能。

Tamar Yehoshua: So you follow people where you're going to learn the most.

Tamar Yehoshua：所以你跟随那些你能学到最多东西的人。

And a way to do that also is you look at where the great people are going.

实现这一目标的一个方法就是观察优秀人才的去向。

So you want to go to companies where there's also a nexus of great people because they together will do great things.

所以你想去的公司也有很多优秀的人才，因为他们在一起会做出伟大的事情。

And even if the company fails or succeeds, but not as much as you'd like, you still have those connections.

即使公司失败或成功，但没有达到您想要的程度，您仍然拥有这些联系。

Everybody talks about the PayPal Mafia and how they've gone on to do things.

每个人都在谈论 PayPal 黑手党以及他们如何继续做事。

I was super lucky to be at Google for so many years and I spent a lot of time with Googlers that I met and that are all working in different companies now because you build those relationships by working together.

我非常幸运能够在谷歌工作这么多年，我花了很多时间与我遇到的谷歌员工在一起，他们现在都在不同的公司工作，因为你通过一起工作建立了这些关系。

So if you follow people and where you're going to learn the most and you go step by step, I think that's a great way of progressing in your career.

因此，如果你关注人们以及你能学到最多的东西，并且一步一步地走下去，我认为这是职业生涯进步的好方法。

Lenny Rachitsky: That's such tactical advice.

Lenny Rachitsky：这就是战术建议。

And I've seen this work for a lot of people that just go where their favorite former employees work.

我已经看到这对很多人来说很有效，他们只是去他们最喜欢的前员工工作的地方。

And not favorite to your point, but the people that they most respect and have been most impressed by.

并不是你最喜欢的人，而是他们最尊敬、印象最深刻的人。

And I think it's such an easy thing to do.

我认为这是一件很容易做到的事情。

It's a really easy heuristic for understanding where to go.

这是一个非常简单的启发式方法，可以帮助您了解该去哪里。

There's something Marc Andreessen once shared that I'm reminded of when you say this.

当你这么说时，我想起了马克·安德森（Marc Andreessen）曾经分享过的一句话。

There's a term for this, I forget the actual term, but there's certain companies have this gravitational pull where they are acquiring all the best talent.

有一个术语来形容这一点，我忘记了实际的术语，但有些公司有这种引力，他们可以吸引所有最优秀的人才。

They're currently the gravity in the space and everyone awesome is going there.

它们目前是太空中的重力，每个很棒的人都会去那里。

And you have to, as a company, know you're one of those companies or you're the opposite.

作为一家公司，你必须知道你是这些公司之一，否则你就是相反的公司。

You're losing all the people and they're all going to this other company.

你正在失去所有的人，他们都会去另一家公司。

I guess any thoughts on that?

我想对此有什么想法吗？

Tamar Yehoshua: Yeah.

塔玛尔·耶霍舒亚：是的。

And it's really bad when you don't have a gravitational pull.

当你没有引力时，情况真的很糟糕。

It's super hard.

太难了。

I would say that one thing that if you're a manager, I always advise managers, go somewhere where you can recruit.

我想说的是，如果你是一名经理，我总是建议经理们去可以招聘的地方。

I got a piece of advice from a friend that I thought was amazing advice as a leader.

我从一位朋友那里得到了一条建议，我认为作为领导者，这是很棒的建议。

She said to me, "Take a job where if you hire people, it's going to make their careers." I was like, "Whoa." Because I was getting offers for some turnaround jobs.

她对我说：“找一份工作，如果你雇佣了人，就会成就他们的职业生涯。”我当时想，“哇。”因为我收到了一些周转工作的邀请。

And if you think you can turn around, great.

如果你认为你可以扭转局面，那就太好了。

But if you're going to hire the best people, you want to make sure that it's going to be a good place for them and that they're going to learn and they're going to grow.

但如果你要雇用最优秀的人才，你需要确保这对他们来说是一个好地方，并且他们能够学习并成长。

And so you want to do right by them.

所以你想对他们做正确的事。

And you really earnestly want to say you can make your career by coming here.

你真的很真诚地想说，来这里你就能成就自己的事业。

Tamar Yehoshua: And I thought that gave such a higher bar for every job I was looking at as a leader that I thought it was just amazing advice.

Tamar Yehoshua：我认为这为我作为领导者所寻找的每项工作提出了更高的标准，我认为这是一个很棒的建议。

And then on the flip side, on the negative side, some people are putting too much emphasis on where will I get a big financial return?

另一方面，从消极的一面来看，有些人过分强调我从哪里可以获得丰厚的财务回报？

And I've found that financial returns are the hardest to predict.

我发现财务回报是最难预测的。

You know who's good.

你知道谁是好人。

You know who you want to work with.

你知道你想和谁一起工作。

You can predict where you're going to learn.

您可以预测您要在哪里学习。

Because even if a company fails, you learn a lot.

因为即使公司失败了，你也会学到很多东西。

But predicting financial success is so hard because you don't know what's going to happen with the market, with the world, with crypto, and Meta AI.

但预测财务成功非常困难，因为你不知道市场、世界、加密货币和元人工智能会发生什么。

And people who do that and say ...

那些这样做并说的人......

I had one person say, "I took this job because I'm a mercenary.

有人说：“我接受这份工作是因为我是一名雇佣兵。

They just paid me a ton." Did not work out for him.

他们刚刚付给我一大笔钱。”不适合他。

And I feel really bad when people do that, but I think that it's a dangerous thing to do.

当人们这样做时我感觉很糟糕，但我认为这是一件危险的事情。

Lenny Rachitsky: I imagine some people hearing this advice are going to feel like, "I'm not going to get a job at OpenAI or Glean or other awesome companies that everyone wants to go work at." Any advice to those folks?

Lenny Rachitsky：我想有些人听到这个建议会觉得，“我不会在 OpenAI 或 Glean 或其他人人都想去的很棒的公司找到工作。”对那些人有什么建议吗？

Tamar Yehoshua: There's lots of good companies and there's lots of smart people.

Tamar Yehoshua：有很多优秀的公司，也有很多聪明的人。

You don't have to be at the top brand.

您不必是顶级品牌。

And if you go somewhere where you're going to learn and it's going to get you there.

如果你去了一个你要学习的地方，它就会带你到达那里。

I made mistakes.

我犯了错误。

I went to some companies, multiple companies that failed or stopped growing and didn't do well or didn't have all the right people.

我去过一些公司，很多公司都失败了，或者停止了增长，表现不佳，或者没有合适的人才。

Careers you don't make every step is to the right place.

职业生涯并非每一步都走向正确的地方。

You remember in what you cited, all the companies I went to that did well, you left out all the ones that I went to that didn't do well.

你记得在你引用的内容中，我去过的所有做得很好的公司，你都忽略了我去过的所有做得不好的公司。

And so then people will assume that every time I made a job change, it was to a company that did well.

因此，人们会认为，每次我换工作时，都是去一家表现良好的公司。

No. That was not the case.

不，事实并非如此。

So if you focus on that learning bit, you will get there.

因此，如果你专注于学习，你就会成功。

And there are lots of paths.

而且有很多路径。

There isn't just the OpenAI or Glean or Anthropic.

不仅仅是 OpenAI、Glean 或 Anthropic。

Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

And again, I love how tactical this is.

再说一遍，我喜欢这种战术性。

If someone is trying to figure out where to go work if they're unhappy in their current job or don't have a job right now is just make a list of the people you most respect that are the best at the thing they do, see where they work and there's your list of companies to potentially go after.

如果有人想知道去哪里工作，如果他们对目前的工作不满意或现在没有工作，只需列出一份你最尊敬的人的名单，他们在他们所做的事情上最擅长，看看他们在哪里工作，这就是你可能会去的公司名单。

There's a lot of benefits to this as you shared.

正如您分享的那样，这样做有很多好处。

It's not just helping you pick the place to work, it's the network.

它不仅帮助您选择工作地点，还帮助您选择工作网络。

It'll level you up.

它会让你提升水平。

Is there anything else along those lines that is helpful for people to think about why this is a really good strategy?

在这些方面还有其他什么可以帮助人们思考为什么这是一个非常好的策略吗？

Tamar Yehoshua: Skills can't be taken away.

Tamar Yehoshua：技能不能被剥夺。

A company can fail, but if you learn a skill, you will always have that skill.

一家公司可能会失败，但如果你学习一项技能，你将永远拥有这项技能。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love that.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢这个。

And I've totally seen this to work, so I really love that you're focusing on this advice.

我完全看到了这一点，所以我真的很喜欢你关注这个建议。

You've mentioned places you've worked and folks you've worked with.

您提到了您工作过的地方以及与您共事过的人。

You worked with folks like Jeff Bezos, Stewart Butterfield, some of the top product thinkers, leaders in the world.

您与杰夫·贝佐斯、斯图尔特·巴特菲尔德等人一起工作过，他们都是世界顶级的产品思想家和领导者。

So let me just ask, what's one thing you learned from Jeff Bezos and Stewart Butterfield?

那么我想问一下，您从杰夫·贝佐斯和斯图尔特·巴特菲尔德身上学到了什么？

Tamar Yehoshua: Probably can't narrow it down to one, but I'll talk about Bezos first.

Tamar Yehoshua：可能无法将范围缩小到一个，但我会先谈谈贝索斯。

I was very lucky to join Amazon early when I still ...

我很幸运在我还在的时候就加入了亚马逊。

I had quarterly meetings with Jeff Bezos.

我每季度都会与杰夫·贝索斯举行会议。

And this was before AWS launched, so it was before Amazon was known in the Valley.

这是在 AWS 推出之前，所以当时亚马逊还没有在硅谷为人所知。

This is another example.

这是另一个例子。

I went there because I went to work for Udi Manbe who started A9 and he was talking to me one night trying to recruit me and he spent two hours on the phone with me telling me how amazing Jeff Bezos was.

我去那里是因为我去为 Udi Manbe 工作，他创办了 A9，有一天晚上他和我谈话，试图招募我，他花了两个小时打电话告诉我杰夫·贝索斯有多么了不起。

And this was before there were any books on him.

那是在有任何关于他的书籍之前。

And that really convinced me to go there.

这确实说服了我去那里。

So there's a lot written on Bezos.

关于贝佐斯的文章很多。

Read his shareholder letters, read the books about him, read Colin Bryar's Working Backwards.

阅读他的股东信，阅读有关他的书籍，阅读科林·布莱尔（Colin Bryar）的《逆向工作》（Working Backwards）。

The Everything Box I think it's called or The Everything Store.

我认为它被称为“一切盒子”或“一切商店”。

Tamar Yehoshua: There's so many good books and there's so much to learn about how he works.

Tamar Yehoshua：有很多好书，关于他的工作方式有很多值得学习的地方。

So I won't try and cover those things.

所以我不会尝试涵盖这些事情。

The things that stood out to me from the meetings I had with him were a couple of things.

从我与他的会面中，我印象最深刻的有几件事。

One, a lot of people have written about these six pagers, so he doesn't believe in PowerPoint.

第一，很多人写过关于这六个寻呼机的文章，所以他不相信 PowerPoint。

You write a six pager about ...

你写了一个六寻呼机关于......

It's like studying for the final exam is writing these six pagers.

这就好像期末考试的学习就是写这六个传呼机。

So you go into the meeting and there's the people around the table, his executive team and him.

所以当你进入会议时，桌子周围有很多人，他的执行团队和他。

First he does not speak until everybody around the table speaks.

首先他不说话，直到桌子周围的每个人都发言。

So he goes around to all his leads and said, "What do you think?

于是他询问了所有线索并说道：“你们觉得怎么样？

What do you think?

你觉得怎么样？

What do you think?" And I'm sitting there like, "I don't care what anyone think.

你觉得怎么样？”我坐在那里，好像在说：“我不在乎别人怎么想。

I just want to hear what Bezos thinks." But he wants to make sure that it's a team effort and that he's listening to what everybody in his organization thinks.

我只是想听听贝佐斯的想法。”但他希望确保这是团队的努力，并且他正在倾听组织中每个人的想法。

Tamar Yehoshua: And he always spoke last.

Tamar Yehoshua：他总是最后发言。

He is by far the smartest person I've ever met in my life.

他是迄今为止我一生中见过的最聪明的人。

I've worked with a lot of smart people.

我和很多聪明人一起工作过。

But his ability to go deep in any domain and nail the core issue, and remember.

但他有能力深入任何领域并解决核心问题并记住。

We would've quarterly meetings and from quarter to quarter he would remember things that he had talked about before and then he would go into the architecture of search and why are you doing it this way or that way?

我们会举行季度会议，每个季度他都会记住他之前讨论过的事情，然后他会进入搜索架构，为什么你要这样或那样做？

And you're just blown away that he knows that.

他知道这一点，你会感到震惊。

For me, the biggest takeaway from those meetings was his consistency, which is he had principles that it made it easier for you to operate in his company because you knew what he cared about because he always had these principles.

对我来说，这些会议最大的收获是他的一致性，即他有原则，让你更容易在他的公司运作，因为你知道他关心什么，因为他总是有这些原则。

Everything had to be customer driven, everything had to be relevant for the customer.

一切都必须以客户为导向，一切都必须与客户相关。

Tamar Yehoshua: He hated icons.

Tamar Yehoshua：他讨厌偶像。

That was just the thing.

就是这样。

You had to write what they were because people couldn't figure out what they are.

你必须写出它们是什么，因为人们无法弄清楚它们是什么。

So anytime you showed an icon, he would get annoyed.

所以每当你展示一个图标时，他都会生气。

But you would go in and after a couple of meetings you're like, "Okay.

但你会进去，在几次会议之后你会说，“好吧。

I know what he's going to ask about.

我知道他要问什么。

I know how he's thinking and I know what his principles are." And I think that consistency enables you to operate a large organization more effectively.

我知道他的想法，也知道他的原则是什么。”我认为一致性使您能够更有效地运营大型组织。

And then there's one other thing that I really remember was one of the few really small meetings I was in with him and we were presenting working on a new product, and I was like, "Our competitors have 10 times as many people as we do on this." And he looks at me and he said, "That is your advantage." And then he goes into his talk about how it's a hill and it takes seven years to build a product.

我真正记得的另一件事是我与他一起参加的为数不多的小型会议之一，我们正在介绍一款新产品的工作，我当时想，“我们的竞争对手在这方面的人员数量是我们的 10 倍。”他看着我说：“这是你的优势。”然后他开始谈论这是一座小山，需要七年的时间来打造一个产品。

You can't look at it in the near term.

短期内你不能看它。

You have to be in it for the long term.

你必须长期参与其中。

You can be sure I never went in and said, "I need a lot more resources." So that was Bezos.

你可以确定我从来没有进去说：“我需要更多的资源。”这就是贝索斯。

Tamar Yehoshua: Stewart.

塔玛·约书亚：斯图尔特。

Again, I went to Slack because I wanted to work with Stewart Butterfield.

我再次选择 Slack，因为我想与 Stewart Butterfield 一起工作。

I think he is the best product thinker in the Valley.

我认为他是硅谷最好的产品思想家。

He's not working in product right now.

他现在不从事产品工作。

He's taking time off.

他要请假了

But he's got this combination of long-term thinking and in the details.

但他将长期思考与细节结合起来。

So in 2014, he wrote a master plan for Slack, which was build a product people love, build a network.

所以在2014年，他为Slack写了一个总体规划，那就是打造一个人们喜爱的产品，打造一个网络。

That's Slack Connect.

这就是 Slack Connect。

Build a platform that makes all of your other SaaS products more valuable.

构建一个平台，让您的所有其他 SaaS 产品更有价值。

That's Slack Platform.

这就是 Slack 平台。

And then do some magic AI stuff.

然后做一些神奇的人工智能东西。

Magic AI stuff took a lot longer, but-

魔法人工智能的东西花了更长的时间，但是-

Lenny Rachitsky: That was part of his plan early on is magic AI stuff.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是他早期计划的一部分，那就是神奇的人工智能东西。

Tamar Yehoshua: It literally was.

Tamar Yehoshua：确实如此。

There was a grid with four boxes in 2014 and it never changed.

2014年有一个有四个盒子的网格，并且从未改变过。

That was his master plan and what we worked on each year changed.

这是他的总体规划，我们每年的工作内容都在变化。

But somebody recently asked me, "You guys did Slack Connect much later?" I'm like, "Yeah, but it was always part of the plan." It was always part of his vision.

但最近有人问我，“你们很久之后才开始使用 Slack Connect 吗？”我想，“是的，但这始终是计划的一部分。”这始终是他愿景的一部分。

So he saw forward in the vision, but he also was very much into the details.

因此，他目光长远，但也非常注重细节。

And I think the thing that I learned from him the most was the power of prototyping.

我认为我从他身上学到最多的就是原型设计的力量。

And that even though he was such a great product thinker, he would always say, "I can't tell you if this is going to work.

尽管他是一位出色的产品思考者，但他总是会说：“我无法告诉你这是否可行。

I have to feel it.

我必须感受一下。

I have to try it.

我必须尝试一下。

And a mock-up doesn't tell you what it's going to feel like." And he would push people to do prototypes, not incremental of just to get a feature out, but really to think.

而且模型并不能告诉你它会是什么样的感觉。”他会推动人们制作原型，不是为了获得某个功能而渐进，而是真正地思考。

Very soon after I started, we launched ...

我开始后不久，我们就推出了......

I hired a design lead, Ethan Eismannn, and he led a redesign of the new information architecture for Slack.

我聘请了一位设计主管 Ethan Eismannn，他领导了 Slack 新信息架构的重新设计。

Lenny Rachitsky: I worked with Ethan at Airbnb.

Lenny Rachitsky：我和 Ethan 在 Airbnb 一起工作。

Lenny Rachitsky: He was head of design for the search experience and the search team.

Lenny Rachitsky：他是搜索体验和搜索团队的设计主管。

Tamar Yehoshua: Yeah.

塔玛尔·耶霍舒亚：是的。

Ethan is awesome.

伊森太棒了。

And he came in and his first task was to work with Stewart on this redesign.

他进来后的首要任务是与斯图尔特合作进行重新设计。

And Stewart came in and said, "I want you to take everything in the interface and put it behind one button." And everyone's like, "That's never going to work." And he's like, "Do it.

斯图尔特进来说，“我希望你把界面中的所有内容都放在一个按钮后面。”每个人都会说，“那是行不通的。”他就像是，“做吧。

Just do it." And so we had our prototypers ...

就这么做吧。”所以我们有了原型机......

We had also engineers, front-end engineers who were really good at prototyping, literally took everything in the interface and put it behind one button and he said, "This is how you're going to see what you really need in the interface." So we were never going to ship that, but it was the beginning of the redesign.

我们还有非常擅长原型设计的工程师、前端工程师，他们将界面中的所有内容都放在一个按钮后面，他说，“这就是你在界面中看到你真正需要的东西的方式。”所以我们永远不会发布它，但这是重新设计的开始。

Lenny Rachitsky: Let me tell you about a product called Sidebar.

Lenny Rachitsky：让我向您介绍一款名为 Sidebar 的产品。

The most successful people that I know surround themselves with incredible peers.

我认识的最成功的人周围都是令人难以置信的同龄人。

When you have a trusted group of peers, you can discuss challenges you're having, get career advice and just gut check how you're thinking about your work, your career and your life.

当你有一群值得信赖的同事时，你可以讨论你遇到的挑战，获得职业建议，并直觉地检查你如何看待你的工作、职业和生活。

This gives you more than a leg up.

这不仅能让您更有优势。

It gives you a leap forward.

它给你一个飞跃。

Having a group of trusted and amazing peers was key to my career growth.

拥有一群值得信赖且出色的同事是我职业发展的关键。

And this is the Sidebar ethos, but it's hard to build this trusted group of peers on your own.

这就是侧边栏的精神，但很难独自建立这个值得信赖的同行群体。

Sidebar is a platform for senior tech professionals, director to C-level to advance in their career.

Sidebar 是一个为高级技术专业人士、总监到 C 级人员提供职业发展平台。

Members are matched into peer groups to lean on for unbiased opinions, diverse perspectives and raw feedback.

成员被匹配到同侪群体中，以获取公正的意见、不同的观点和原始反馈。

Guided by world-class programming and facilitation, all running on Sidebar's technology Sidebar enables you to get focused tactical feedback at every step of your career journey.

在世界一流的编程和便利的指导下，所有这些都在 Sidebar 的技术上运行 Sidebar 使您能够在职业生涯的每一步获得集中的战术反馈。

Lenny Rachitsky: If you're a listener of this podcast, you're already committed to growth.

Lenny Rachitsky：如果您是这个播客的听众，那么您已经致力于成长。

Sidebar is the missing piece to catalyze your career.

侧边栏是促进您职业生涯的缺失部分。

93% of members say Sidebar helped them achieve a significant positive change in their career.

93% 的会员表示 Sidebar 帮助他们在职业生涯中实现了重大的积极变化。

Check them out at sidebar.com/lenny.

请访问 sidebar.com/lenny 查看它们。

Lenny Rachitsky: As a product leader, how do you think about just the time it takes to create a prototype in something like this?

Lenny Rachitsky：作为产品负责人，您如何看待创建这样的原型所需的时间？

As a pm I'm just like a lot of times we don't have time to build this whole prototype.

作为一名项目经理，我觉得很多时候我们没有时间构建整个原型。

We got to ship stuff, we got to hit these calls, we got experiments to run, we'll just build it and see how it goes.

我们必须运送东西，我们必须接到这些电话，我们要进行实验，我们将构建它并看看它进展如何。

How do you think about making time for something like that?

您如何看待腾出时间来做这样的事情？

Tamar Yehoshua: If you're doing it right, it'll be faster and you need to have an engineering infrastructure that enables prototyping.

Tamar Yehoshua：如果您做得正确，速度会更快，并且您需要拥有支持原型设计的工程基础设施。

So some engineering infrastructures are too heavy and they don't actually enable prototyping.

因此，一些工程基础设施过于繁重，实际上无法实现原型设计。

We had a problem with our mobile apps that it was too hard to prototype and we actually redesigned our mobile apps until we got to the point where it was easier because our desktop app was pretty easy to prototype.

我们的移动应用程序有一个问题，那就是原型太难了，我们实际上重新设计了我们的移动应用程序，直到我们达到了更容易的地步，因为我们的桌面应用程序很容易原型化。

But you have to have a layer of abstraction that enables you to do that, and you have to have engineers who have a prototyping mindset, and if you build multiple things and you have this mindset as I'm willing to throw it away, you write code that is never going to make it to production so you can just crank it out much faster and then you can see what works and then you build the production code.

但是你必须有一个抽象层来帮助你做到这一点，你必须有具有原型思维的工程师，如果你构建了多个东西并且你有这种思维（我愿意扔掉它），那么你编写的代码永远不会进入生产，这样你就可以更快地完成它，然后你可以看到什么是有效的，然后你构建生产代码。

Until you actually get to your end goal of something working faster.

直到您真正实现更快地完成某件事的最终目标。

Tamar Yehoshua: But you need the engineering team to have the same mindset.

Tamar Yehoshua：但是你需要工程团队有同样的心态。

The product and engineering have to work together and design because design is just in it.

产品和工程必须一起工作和设计，因为设计就在其中。

Sometimes you can get design engineers who are doing the prototyping.

有时您可以找到正在制作原型的设计工程师。

So your first prototypes are like Figma prototypes, and then you get prototypes on real data.

所以你的第一个原型就像 Figma 原型，然后你得到真实数据的原型。

When I was at Google, one of our teams, a front-end team, I remember we hired a bunch of prototypers and our head of front-end engineering said to me one day, this is my secret weapon.

当我在谷歌时，我们的一个团队，一个前端团队，我记得我们雇佣了一群原型师，有一天我们的前端工程负责人对我说，这是我的秘密武器。

This is how we move faster.

这就是我们行动更快的方式。

So I do think it's a mindset shift and a tech stack shift.

所以我确实认为这是一种思维方式的转变和技术堆栈的转变。

Lenny Rachitsky: We're going to talk about AI later, but it's also getting easier to build prototypes with AI.

Lenny Rachitsky：我们稍后会讨论人工智能，但用人工智能构建原型也变得越来越容易。

There's this video recently that went around on Twitter where an eight-year-old girl was building an app and in like 45 minutes, she built a chatbot using this product called Cursor.

最近 Twitter 上流传一段视频，视频中一名 8 岁的女孩正在构建一个应用程序，在大约 45 分钟内，她使用这款名为 Cursor 的产品构建了一个聊天机器人。

So I think that'll unlock a lot of great product on opportunities and just accelerate this sort of work.

因此，我认为这将释放出许多优秀产品的机会，并加速此类工作。

I asked about Jeff Bezos and Stewart Butterfield.

我询问了杰夫·贝索斯和斯图尔特·巴特菲尔德的情况。

I'm curious if there's another leader you've worked with that maybe is less known that you also learned a ton from that might be worth talking about.

我很好奇是否有另一位与你共事过的领导者，他可能不太为人所知，但你也从中学到了很多值得谈论的东西。

Tamar Yehoshua: I think that there are people who are really, really good at what they do.

Tamar Yehoshua：我认为有些人非常非常擅长他们所做的事情。

So Marc Benioff is an amazing marketeer.

所以马克·贝尼奥夫是一位了不起的营销人员。

His marketing mind ...

他的营销头脑...

After the acquisition, I got the opportunity to onstage with him at Dreamforce for ...

收购后，我有机会在 Dreamforce 与他一起登台表演......

Because Slack was a new shiny thing so of course Slack was going to be in the keynote.

因为 Slack 是一个新的闪亮事物，所以 Slack 当然会出现在主题演讲中。

And so I was in the Benioff's keynote two years in a row.

因此，我连续两年参加贝尼奥夫的主题演讲。

And so I watched how he approaches his keynote and the whole thing around Dreamforce.

所以我观察了他如何进行主题演讲以及围绕 Dreamforce 的整个事情。

Dreamforce is incredible at the impact that it has on the ecosystem.

Dreamforce 对生态系统的影响令人难以置信。

And so I think that as a product, people don't think of him as much, but as his marketing abilities are amazing what he's done.

所以我认为，作为一种产品，人们并没有那么看重他，但他的营销能力令人惊叹，他所做的一切。

Lenny Rachitsky: I've written posts about how various companies got started in Salesforce history.

Lenny Rachitsky：我写过一些关于 Salesforce 历史上不同公司如何起步的文章。

Always comes to mind where they go to conferences where's there's no software mascot walking around.

总是会想到他们去参加会议的地方，那里没有软件吉祥物走来走去。

And I remember they did something around one of their competitors where they just created some real controversy around someone.

我记得他们围绕一位竞争对手做了一些事情，他们只是在某人周围制造了一些真正的争议。

Tamar Yehoshua: Well, they went into their competitor's conference and stood outside their competitor's conference.

Tamar Yehoshua：嗯，他们进入竞争对手的会议并站在竞争对手的会议外。

Lenny Rachitsky: Mm-hmm.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：嗯嗯。

Right.

正确的。

That's what it was.

就是这样。

Tamar Yehoshua: This is in the Beyond Software.

Tamar Yehoshua：这是在 Beyond Software 中。

This is in his book that he wrote about the early phases of Salesforce.

这是他在书中写到的有关 Salesforce 早期阶段的内容。

And it takes his guts.

这需要他的勇气。

He pushes the envelope.

他挑战极限。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love that.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢这个。

It's a really good point that people don't think of Marc Benioff as a marketer.

人们不认为马克·贝尼奥夫是营销人员，这是一个非常好的观点。

And that's interesting that that's maybe the main thing you took away from him is just the power of marketing and the skill.

有趣的是，你从他身上夺走的主要东西可能就是营销的力量和技能。

Tamar Yehoshua: He approaches his marketing presentations like a product person approaches their building their product.

Tamar Yehoshua：他的营销演示就像产品人员构建产品一样。

Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

Okay.

好的。

Speaking of former colleagues, I asked one of your former colleagues, his name is Fuzzy Khos.

说到以前的同事，我问过你的一位以前的同事，他的名字叫Fuzzy Khos。

He's now the CTO of Notion.

他现在是 Notion 的首席技术官。

You worked with him, I believe at Slack.

我相信你在 Slack 和他一起工作过。

Lenny Rachitsky: And at Google.

Lenny Rachitsky：在谷歌。

Wow.

哇。

Okay.

好的。

So I asked him what to ask you, and he said that you're amazing at building strong cross-functional relationships, especially with engineers.

所以我问他该问你什么，他说你非常擅长建立牢固的跨职能关系，尤其是与工程师的关系。

I know you used to be an engineer, so I get where that skill come from.

我知道你曾经是一名工程师，所以我知道你的技能从何而来。

What can you teach people about building stronger cross-functional relationships, especially PMs to build better relationships with their engineers, designers, other folks on their team?

你可以教人们什么来建立更牢固的跨职能关系，特别是项目经理与他们的工程师、设计师和团队中其他人建立更好的关系？

Tamar Yehoshua: Probably the most important thing that a product leader does because if you have great ideas of what to build, but you can't get them built, then you go nowhere.

Tamar Yehoshua：这可能是产品领导者所做的最重要的事情，因为如果你对构建什么有很好的想法，但你无法实现它们，那么你将一事无成。

So one, make sure somewhere where you have a good engineering partner.

因此，请确保您在某个地方拥有良好的工程合作伙伴。

So Henderson was the co-founder and CTO of Slack, and I couldn't have asked for a better engineering partner.

Henderson 是 Slack 的联合创始人兼首席技术官，我找不到比这更好的工程合作伙伴了。

He's just awesome.

他太棒了。

And that has to be part of your evaluation criteria that you meet and value your engineering partner before you join or you know that it's not the right one and the organization is willing to make a change.

这必须成为您在加入之前满足并重视您的工程合作伙伴的评估标准的一部分，否则您知道这不是正确的选择并且组织愿意做出改变。

So that can happen too.

所以这也可能发生。

You can go in and understand that something has to change, but that is a very, very important thing of what you're doing and what you're assessing when you go in.

你可以进去并理解有些事情必须改变，但这对于你正在做的事情和你进去时正在评估的事情来说是非常非常重要的。

And then I think what's really important is that you're aligned.

然后我认为真正重要的是你们保持一致。

You understand your roles and responsibilities and where you're going to divide and conquer and where you're going to be aligned.

您了解自己的角色和责任，以及您将在哪些方面分而治之，以及您将在哪些方面保持一致。

Tamar Yehoshua: You don't want any of this ...

Tamar Yehoshua：你不想要这些......

People in the organization, they asked Mom, they asked dad and they got different opinions and playing one against the other, that doesn't work.

组织里的人，他们问妈妈，问爸爸，他们得到了不同的意见，然后互相对抗，这是行不通的。

So one, you have to know that you're not going to do that.

所以第一，你必须知道你不会这样做。

So if somebody would ask me something that it was in Cal's domain, I'd be like, "Did you talk to Cal?" I would never try and go around him.

因此，如果有人问我一些属于卡尔领域的事情，我会说，“你和卡尔谈过了吗？”我永远不会试图绕过他。

So we were very clear on, you're going to drive this, I'm going to drive this.

所以我们非常明确，你将驾驶它，我将驾驶它。

And if it was unclear, we'd talk and we would say, "Okay.

如果不清楚，我们会讨论，我们会说：“好吧。

Who's going to take this one?" And we would do all our reviews together.

谁来拿走这个？”我们会一起做所有的评论。

And so all of the OKR reviews, we had weekly exec reviews, we had the updates on our OKRs, so we did them all together, but I knew here's the things that he was going to ask the questions on and dig deep.

因此，所有 OKR 审核，我们每周进行执行审核，我们对 OKR 进行更新，所以我们一起完成这些工作，但我知道这是他要提出问题并深入挖掘的内容。

And then when I was, he would take a back seat, but of course we could ask questions in each other things, but I knew that he was taking ownership and he knew what I was taking ownership of.

然后当我在的时候，他会退居二线，但当然我们可以互相提问，但我知道他正在掌控一切，他也知道我正在掌控什么。

Tamar Yehoshua: But I think the bottom line was respect.

Tamar Yehoshua：但我认为底线是尊重。

Is that you have to respect and trust that they actually will follow up on what they say they will.

你必须尊重并相信他们实际上会按照他们所说的去做。

In Cal and Fuzzy were amazing at that.

In Cal 和 Fuzzy 在这方面做得非常出色。

I would go to Fuzzy and be like, "Hey, we need more mobile engineers because this one product is not going to ship." And he's like, "I'm on it.

我会去 Fuzzy 说，“嘿，我们需要更多的移动工程师，因为这款产品不会发货。”他说：“我就这么做。

Got it." And that was all I needed to do.

明白了。”这就是我需要做的一切。

And obviously if he couldn't do it, he'd come back to me and, "Hey, there's going to be a problem." But it was like just things got done.

显然，如果他做不到，他就会回来找我，“嘿，会有问题的。”但这就像事情刚刚完成一样。

That's the best part of it.

这是它最好的部分。

Lenny Rachitsky: You talked about being aligned, which I love and I fully have seen that power of that of you and your engine manager, design manager being aligned on ...

Lenny Rachitsky：你谈到了团结，我喜欢这一点，我完全看到了你和你的引擎经理、设计经理团结一致的力量......

And you tell me if I'm wrong, but specifically on what goals you're trying to achieve, what success looks like, things like that.

如果我错了，你可以告诉我，特别是你想要实现的目标，成功是什么样的，诸如此类的事情。

Are there any tactics you found to create that alignment?

您是否发现了任何策略来创建这种一致性？

And also if there's anything else you want to add to the point I just made about what it is you're specifically aligned on, that'd be great.

另外，如果您还想对我刚才提出的关于您特别一致的观点添加任何其他内容，那就太好了。

Tamar Yehoshua: One, you got to spend a lot of time together.

Tamar Yehoshua：第一，你们必须花很多时间在一起。

There isn't a way around that.

没有办法解决这个问题。

And you have to document things and make sure that you've talked it through.

你必须记录事情并确保你已经讨论过了。

And if you don't agree with something and you're not sure it's a priority, you have to speak up and you can't just be like, "Okay, whatever.", and then go to somebody in your team and be like, "Oh God, that that CTO, why did he make this decision?" That just doesn't work.

如果你不同意某件事，并且不确定它是否是优先事项，你必须大声说出来，你不能只是说，“好吧，无论如何。”，然后去找你团队中的某个人，说，“天哪，那个首席技术官，他为什么做出这个决定？”那是行不通的。

So I'm a very direct person.

所以我是一个非常直接的人。

So if I don't think that something is the right priority or is working, I will be very clear.

因此，如果我认为某件事不是正确的优先事项或不起作用，我会非常清楚。

We had different forms, so I'll be very tactical here on the forms that Cal and I had together.

我们有不同的形式，所以我会在卡尔和我一起的形式上非常有策略。

Tamar Yehoshua: We used OKRs to drive our processes and we would have the teams present OKRs to us.

Tamar Yehoshua：我们使用 OKR 来驱动我们的流程，我们会让团队向我们展示 OKR。

When the team got too large, it got to be too much time to go through every team's OKR review so we had a Slack channel for each team, their OKRs, a planning channel for each one.

当团队规模太大时，需要花费太多时间来审查每个团队的 OKR，因此我们为每个团队、他们的 OKR 和每个团队提供了一个 Slack 渠道和一个规划渠道。

And people would post a doc and then a Slack video of going through the major points.

人们会发布一个文档，然后发布一个 Slack 视频来介绍要点。

And we had a time limit of how long they were allowed to be.

我们对他们允许的时间有一个时间限制。

And they would say, "Here's our OKRs, here's the things that you would pay attention to." And then Cal and I would do a marathon and we would watch them all together.

他们会说：“这是我们的 OKR，这是您需要注意的事情。”然后卡尔和我会参加一场马拉松，我们会一起观看比赛。

And-

还有——

Lenny Rachitsky: In a room sitting there watching them together?

Lenny Rachitsky：坐在一个房间里看着他们在一起？

Tamar Yehoshua: Correct.

Tamar Yehoshua：正确。

And then we would say, "Do we have any follow-up questions?" And we put in channel our follow-up questions to the team.

然后我们会说：“我们还有什么后续问题吗？”我们向团队提出后续问题。

And sometimes there'd be five to 10 teams that we would then have a follow-up meeting with.

有时我们会与 5 到 10 个团队举行后续会议。

We would say that this is a really high priority project or there are a lot of questions that we have, and then we would do a meeting but we were always doing those meetings together.

我们会说这是一个非常高优先级的项目，或者我们有很多问题，然后我们会开会，但我们总是一起开这些会议。

So that was the OKR reviews of getting the alignment.

这就是获得一致性的 OKR 审查。

And by asking the questions, we could then ...

通过提出问题，我们可以......

By it just being us, we could dig into the team.

只要是我们，我们就可以深入团队。

And we each had a chief of staff, so it was the two of us plus our two chiefs of staff, and which they also did a divide and conquer and they worked really well together.

我们每个人都有一名参谋长，所以是我们两个人加上我们的两名参谋长，他们也进行了分而治之的工作，他们合作得非常好。

They were both long time Slack employees.

他们都是 Slack 的长期员工。

So for years they had ...

所以多年来他们...

One had been an engineering director and one had been a TPM.

其中一位是工程总监，一位是 TPM。

And then every Monday we had a Monday meeting where we reviewed the progress on the top OKRs and red, yellow, green and don't talk through the green ones, only talk through the red ones and what are the issues.

然后每周一我们都会召开周一会议，审查顶级 OKR 和红色、黄色、绿色的进展情况，不讨论绿色的，只讨论红色的以及存在什么问题。

And again, both there.

再说一遍，两者都在那里。

And then we had a weekly meeting with the four of us where we would just go through any issues in the organization, what's going on, what's not.

然后我们四个人每周举行一次会议，讨论组织中的任何问题，发生了什么，没有发生什么。

Lenny Rachitsky: And the four of us is you, the CTO, the chiefs of staff.

Lenny Rachitsky：我们四个人就是你们，首席技术官，参谋长。

Tamar Yehoshua: Yep.

塔玛·约书亚：是的。

And sometimes we would invite people.

有时我们会邀请人们。

Like there's an issue with QA, so we'd have the QA leader come in and present to us.

就像 QA 存在问题一样，我们会让 QA 负责人进来并向我们介绍。

But we tried to limit the number of meetings with teams.

但我们试图限制与团队会面的次数。

So it'd be like the Monday meeting was the big meeting that you had to be there and you had to be able to talk to your project and that was it.

因此，周一的会议就像是一场大型会议，你必须出席，并且必须能够讨论你的项目，仅此而已。

Lenny Rachitsky: There's so much awesomeness here.

Lenny Rachitsky：这里有很多很棒的东西。

I love the idea of this Async share your plan in a video instead of meetings with everyone in real time.

我喜欢这个异步在视频中分享您的计划的想法，而不是与每个人实时会议。

And you could just do a lot of the stuff Async.

你可以做很多异步的事情。

Tamar Yehoshua: We iterated every quarter, just like you iterate on a product.

Tamar Yehoshua：我们每个季度都会迭代，就像迭代产品一样。

So every quarter we would say did the OKR planning work or not, and then we would adjust.

所以每个季度我们都会说 OKR 规划是否有效，然后我们会进行调整。

So we got to the point where at one point we added up all the hours of OKR reviews and all the people in them and it was some insane number, like 300 and something and we're like, "This has gotten out of hand." So then we're like, "We have to do something drastic." And that's when we moved them to Async.

所以我们到了这样的地步：有一次，我们将 OKR 审核的所有时间以及其中的所有人员加起来，这是一个疯狂的数字，比如 300 之类的，我们就像是，“这已经失控了。”所以我们就会想，“我们必须做一些激烈的事情。”就在那时我们将它们转移到异步。

It was also right after Slack Clips launched.

也是在 Slack Clips 推出之后。

Lenny Rachitsky: Got it.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：明白了。

That's the video feature.

这就是视频功能。

Very cool.

非常酷。

Then I know you launched huddles, right?

那我知道你发起了聚会，对吗？

Slack Huddles?

松弛的聚会？

Did you use that as a part of this or eventually you just get people into a little huddle asynchronously and talk-

你是否将其用作其中的一部分，或者最终你只是让人们异步地挤在一起并交谈-

Tamar Yehoshua: Sometimes.

Tamar Yehoshua：有时。

Absolutely.

绝对地。

We would be in the reviews and we would huddle with somebody to ask a quick question.

我们会在评论中，我们会和某人挤在一起问一个简单的问题。

We use Huddled all the time.

我们一直使用 Huddled。

I still do.

我仍然这样做。

I love Huddles.

我喜欢挤在一起。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love it.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢它。

One crazy thing about Slack is people in Slack don't actually use email internally.

Slack 的一件疯狂的事情是 Slack 中的人们实际上并不在内部使用电子邮件。

It's like all in Slack.

就像 Slack 中的一切一样。

It's like the actual vision of Slack working within Slack.

这就像 Slack 在 Slack 中工作的实际愿景。

Tamar Yehoshua: No email unless you're dealing with somebody external.

Tamar Yehoshua：除非您与外部人员打交道，否则不要发送电子邮件。

And no, it's mostly Slack Connect anyway.

不，无论如何，它主要是 Slack Connect。

Lenny Rachitsky: Anyway.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：无论如何。

Wow, that's amazing.

哇，太棒了。

Okay.

好的。

I have one more question around product stuff and then I want to talk about AI.

我还有一个关于产品的问题，然后我想谈谈人工智能。

So I was reading your newsletter on Substack, which we'll link to and you share this really interesting insight that I've experienced myself that I'll quote you here.

所以我在 Substack 上阅读了您的新闻通讯，我们将链接到该新闻通讯，您分享了我自己经历过的这个非常有趣的见解，我将在这里引用您的观点。

One of the mistakes that I see a lot of product managers make is they over index on people who are going to be unhappy with the products they're launching.

我看到很多产品经理犯的错误之一是他们过度关注那些对他们推出的产品不满意的人。

And basically your advice is not to worry so much about making users unhappy, which I think is counterintuitive to some people.

基本上你的建议是不要太担心让用户不高兴，我认为这对某些人来说是违反直觉的。

Can you just talk about this lesson and I'd love to hear what product you launched that made people unhappy that you realized, oh, maybe we don't need to worry about this as much.

你能谈谈这个教训吗？我很想听听你推出了哪些产品让人们不高兴，因为你意识到，哦，也许我们不需要太担心这个问题。

Tamar Yehoshua: I saw it more when you unlaunch things, you take things away there's always some set of users that are using a feature that nobody else does, and then you take it away and they're super unhappy, but there are more people you're going to make happy.

Tamar Yehoshua：当你推出一些东西时，我看到的更多，你把东西拿走，总是有一些用户正在使用其他人没有使用的功能，然后你把它拿走，他们非常不高兴，但你会让更多的人高兴。

So a product manager gets caught in this trap of the vocal minority and the number of people using your product ...

因此，产品经理陷入了少数派和使用你产品的人数的陷阱......

Depends on what phase.

要看什么阶段。

Are you a Google?

你是谷歌吗？

Are you Slack?

你是斯莱克吗？

Are you a Glean?

你是格莱恩人吗？

But the number of people using your product today is usually unless you're a Google far smaller than the number of people who are going to be using your product tomorrow.

但除非你是 Google，否则今天使用你产品的人数通常远远少于明天使用你产品的人数。

So design it for the bigger number of people who are going to be using it tomorrow.

因此，请为明天将要使用它的更多人设计它。

If you have to redo the UI and the Who Moved My Cheese, people will be unhappy, but all the new people are going to be like, "This is so much easier." Then do it and deal with the people who are unhappy.

如果你必须重做用户界面和《谁动了我的奶酪》，人们会不高兴，但所有新人都会说，“这容易多了。”然后去做，处理那些不开心的人。

Tamar Yehoshua: But the trick is you have to be respectful and you have to be transparent and you have to explain.

Tamar Yehoshua：但关键是你必须尊重，你必须透明，你必须解释。

You have to go to people and say, "This is why we made this change." And you have to be authentic.

你必须去找人们说：“这就是我们做出这一改变的原因。”而且你必须是真实的。

You can't be dismissive and you can't have marketing speak.

你不能轻视，也不能用营销说话。

You have to really say, "Here's for real why." And you have to listen to your audience.

你必须真正地说：“这就是真正的原因。”而且你必须倾听观众的意见。

You don't want to alienate your early users because most people ...

你不想疏远你的早期用户，因为大多数人......

If you made a good decision on why you moved this or why we stopped using Slack calls and moved to Huddles and you have to do it over time and give people choice and then give them enough time to move.

如果你对为什么要移动这个或为什么我们停止使用 Slack 通话并转向 Huddles 做出了正确的决定，你必须随着时间的推移而这样做，给人们选择，然后给他们足够的时间来移动。

So you have to do it in the right way.

所以你必须以正确的方式去做。

But if people feel heard, it makes a difference.

但如果人们感到被倾听，那就会有所不同。

Tamar Yehoshua: I have an example that's not a product example, but I think is a really good one.

Tamar Yehoshua：我有一个例子，虽然不是产品示例，但我认为这是一个非常好的例子。

It's a leadership example.

这是一个领导力的例子。

So when I was at Google, there was always a controversy about something, but there was a controversy about ...

所以当我在谷歌的时候，总是有一些关于某些事情的争议，但是有一个关于......的争议。

It was Blogger or something.

是 Blogger 之类的。

I can't even remember what it was.

我什至不记得那是什么。

It was like we made a change.

就好像我们做出了改变。

We were like 50,000 people at the time.

当时我们大约有 50,000 人。

There was an engineer in my team, an IT engineer that was super unhappy about the change.

我的团队中有一位工程师，一位 IT 工程师，他对这一变化非常不满意。

And I knew Rachel Whetstone, she was in charge of all of PR and global policy at Google.

我认识 Rachel Whetstone，她负责 Google 的所有公关和全球政策。

So huge job.

如此巨大的工作。

And I emailed Rachel and I'm like, "Hey, do you have an FAQ or something that can help me?

我给 Rachel 发了电子邮件，我说：“嘿，你有常见问题解答或可以帮助我的东西吗？

Because I don't know why you made this change and that I can help explain to the engineer in my team."

因为我不知道你为什么要做出这样的改变，我可以帮助向我团队的工程师解释一下。”

Tamar Yehoshua: She did not respond to my email.

Tamar Yehoshua：她没有回复我的电子邮件。

She picked up the phone and she called him.

她拿起电话，给他打了电话。

I had no idea she did this.

我不知道她这么做了。

She just called this IT engineer and she listened to him and she heard why he was upset and she explained her reasoning.

她刚刚给这位 IT 工程师打电话，听了他的话，听出了他为何不高兴，并解释了自己的理由。

He was so blown away that she called him that he completely changed his opinion and then he told everyone else in the org.

她给他打电话，他非常震惊，以至于他完全改变了自己的观点，然后他告诉了组织中的其他人。

And so it had this effect.

所以就有了这样的效果。

And I learned a lot from watching her do that.

我从观察她这样做中学到了很多东西。

She never even told me she did it later.

她甚至从未告诉过我她后来这么做了。

She just did it.

她刚刚做到了。

You just act.

你只要行动。

You're authentic.

你是正宗的。

You listen to people and you're transparent.

你倾听人们的意见并且你是透明的。

Lenny Rachitsky: It's so funny.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：这太有趣了。

This reminds me of a parenting book I'm reading right now that a former guest recommended called Listen.

这让我想起我现在正在读的一本育儿书，是一位前客人推荐的，名叫《倾听》。

And the core thesis of the book is when your kids are acting up or they're getting off track, so much of what they need is a sense that you're connected to them, a connection which is rooted in you listening to them.

这本书的核心论点是，当你的孩子表现不佳或偏离正轨时，他们最需要的是一种感觉，即你与他们有联系，这种联系植根于你倾听他们的声音。

And so all-

所以所有——

Tamar Yehoshua: My favorite parenting book ...

Tamar Yehoshua：我最喜欢的育儿书......

I don't know if this is the same one or a different one, it's How to Talk so Your Kids Will Listen & How to Listen so Your Kids Will Talk.

我不知道这是同一个还是不同的，这是《如何说，让你的孩子会听》和《如何听，让你的孩子会说话》。

Maybe it's the new name of that book, but it's so good and it's so true in everything and also in products.

也许这是那本书的新名字，但它是如此的好，它在一切和产品中都是如此真实。

So whether you're in a forum and explaining to customers, whether you're enterprise customers, you're explaining, you're hearing them out, people want to understand.

因此，无论您是在论坛上向客户解释，无论您是企业客户，您都在解释、倾听他们的意见，人们想要理解。

Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

There's so many applications of just the power of listening.

倾听的力量有很多应用。

Okay.

好的。

Well, not quite a segue, but let's talk about AI.

好吧，不完全是连续的，但我们来谈谈人工智能。

You're at the epicenter of AI now with Glean.

有了 Glean，您现在就处于人工智能的中心。

How do you anticipate AI will change our jobs and product?

您预计人工智能将如何改变我们的工作和产品？

What do you think people may be aren't recognizing it, realizing it?

你认为人们可能没有认识到它、没有意识到它是什么？

What have you seen?

你看到了什么？

Tamar Yehoshua: I'm going to give you a little bit of my history with AI to get to that point.

Tamar Yehoshua：我将向您介绍一些我在人工智能方面的历史，以达到这一点。

When AI was a completely different technology stack ...

当人工智能是一个完全不同的技术堆栈时......

I have a master's in AI.

我拥有人工智能硕士学位。

So I started working in AI when ...

所以我开始从事人工智能工作时......

It's evolved so much.

已经进化这么多了

And then of course at Google using it for auto complete and search.

当然，谷歌也使用它来自动完成和搜索。

It's transformed so many times.

已经变了很多次了

But then with this last transformation of GenAI ...

但随着 GenAI 的最后一次转变......

And that's what brought me to Glean of seeing this, meeting lots of AI companies and like, "Wow.

这就是让我看到 Glean 的原因，会见了很多人工智能公司，然后说：“哇。

This is really going to transform how we work." And it's just fascinating seeing these products.

这确实会改变我们的工作方式。”看到这些产品真是令人着迷。

I was one of those people like, "Oh yeah, it's going to be so far away." Until I saw GPT3.

我是那些人中的一员，“哦，是的，它会很遥远。”直到我看到GPT3。

And I think AI, we are underestimating how much it's going to change how we work.

我认为人工智能，我们低估了它对我们工作方式的改变程度。

It's not going to be sudden from today to tomorrow because people haven't figured it out yet.

从今天到明天不会突然，因为人们还没有弄清楚。

They haven't figured out how exactly to leverage it.

他们还没有弄清楚如何准确地利用它。

But the people who have are going to be so far ahead.

但拥有这些的人将会遥遥领先。

They're going to be far ahead of everyone else because they're going to be working faster, they're going to be working better.

他们将远远领先于其他人，因为他们会工作得更快，工作得更好。

Tamar Yehoshua: And in five to 10 years, I think the lines between product managers and engineers and designers are going to blur because AI will enable product managers to build prototypes, to build designs.

Tamar Yehoshua：在五到十年内，我认为产品经理与工程师和设计师之间的界限将变得模糊，因为人工智能将使产品经理能够构建原型、构建设计。

Designers to build a pro like Figma already has their Figma AI.

设计 Figma 等专业产品的设计师已经拥有 Figma AI。

You can press a button and you can get your initial prototype working.

您只需按下一个按钮，即可让您的初始原型正常工作。

You've got all the co-pilots.

所有的副驾驶都在你身边。

So they're not quite there.

所以他们还没有完全到位。

You still, like with Copilot or with Cursor, you need to be an experienced engineer to know when it's getting it wrong, but they're going to keep getting better.

您仍然像使用 Copilot 或 Cursor 一样，需要成为一名经验丰富的工程师才能知道何时出错，但它们会不断变得更好。

I think people have to be careful about not getting left behind, but their jobs aren't going to go away.

我认为人们必须小心不要落后，但他们的工作不会消失。

They're just going to change.

他们只会改变。

I'm of the believer that we're just going to have a lot more software.

我相信我们将会拥有更多的软件。

But I talked to engineers and to PMs saying, "Yeah, I tried that.

但我与工程师和产品经理交谈时说：“是的，我尝试过。

It doesn't really work." And then go back to how I worked before.

这真的不起作用。”然后回到我之前的工作方式。

And that's a dangerous spot to be in I think.

我认为这是一个危险的地方。

Lenny Rachitsky: For people that get anxiety hearing this where they're feeling they're going to be left behind and like, "Oh my God, I don't know enough time to do this or I don't know what I'm doing here." Do you have any advice for what's something someone can do to not fall behind?

Lenny Rachitsky：对于那些听到这个消息感到焦虑的人，他们觉得自己将被抛在后面，然后想，“天哪，我不知道有足够的时间来做这件事，或者我不知道我在这里做什么。”对于如何让某人不落后，你有什么建议吗？

Tamar Yehoshua: Use the products.

Tamar Yehoshua：使用产品。

This is what good PMs should do period.

这就是优秀的产品经理应该做的事情。

Always be using new products.

始终使用新产品。

It's not a unique thing for AI.

对于人工智能来说，这并不是什么独特的事情。

When mobile came out, PMs needed to be using mobile apps all the time to try them out, see what the UIs are, see what's working and what isn't.

当移动出现时，产品经理需要一直使用移动应用程序来尝试它们，看看 UI 是什么，看看什么有效，什么无效。

And the same goes even more for AI.

对于人工智能来说更是如此。

Use ChatGPT.

使用 ChatGPT。

If your organization has Glean, use Glean.

如果您的组织有 Glean，请使用 Glean。

Use Claude.

使用克劳德.

Try them all.

全部尝试一下。

Try them and see what they do.

尝试一下，看看他们会做什么。

I was talking to a product manager I know who is more forward-thinking and loves playing with new products and he had this use case that blew me away.

我正在和一位我认识的产品经理交谈，他更具前瞻性，喜欢尝试新产品，他的这个用例让我震惊。

So he said ...

所以他说……

And this was a couple of months ago, so before ...

这是几个月前的事，所以之前......

It was right when Gemini had expanded the context window.

就在 Gemini 扩大了上下文窗口的时候。

So his product had a Discord channel and he took the transcript from the Discord channel, which was huge.

所以他的产品有一个 Discord 频道，他从 Discord 频道获取了巨大的文字记录。

And he fed it into Gemini the entire channel and then used it to ask questions.

他将整个频道输入 Gemini，然后用它来提问。

Like what is the sentiment of my product?

比如我的产品的情感是什么？

What is the most requested feature?

最需要的功能是什么？

What are the things people are unhappy with?

人们对哪些事情不满意？

This never would've occurred to me.

我从来没有想到过这一点。

It's like, that is so smart.

就好像，这真是太聪明了。

And he's like, "It was like a goldmine." Do you know how long it would've taken him to read?

他说，“这就像一座金矿。”你知道他要花多长时间才能读完吗？

And he just wouldn't have done it.

而他就是不会这么做。

Tamar Yehoshua: So think about for the argument, oh, I'm too busy.

Tamar Yehoshua：所以考虑一下争论，哦，我太忙了。

Well, if you use these products it's going to be a leverage on your time.

好吧，如果您使用这些产品，它将成为您时间的杠杆。

So you get a lot of articles sent to you, summarize them, use AI to summarize the articles.

所以你收到很多文章发给你，总结它们，用AI来总结文章。

We use Gong at Glean to record all our sales calls.

我们在 Glean 使用 Kong 来记录我们所有的销售电话。

We have a Glean app that will read all the Gong transcripts, put them in a spreadsheet in a certain format of who the AE is, etc. And then summarize all the top requested features from all the Gong calls.

我们有一个 Glean 应用程序，它将读取所有的 Kong 记录，将它们以某种格式放入电子表格中，说明 AE 是谁等。然后总结所有 Kong 调用中最需要的功能。

And it took a while to get it right.

花了一段时间才把它做好。

At first the summarization, the prompt wasn't good enough and would give us features that our salespeople would recommend and didn't distinguish that this was actually the customer.

起初的总结，提示不够好，会给我们销售人员推荐的功能，但没有区分这实际上是客户。

So you have to tweak it.

所以你必须调整它。

It's not going to work out of the box.

它不会开箱即用。

But then we got it to the point where it worked and these things really save time and you have to use your creative juices as a PM to figure out how it can help you and have patience to iterate and keep trying because the models that we have today can do a lot already.

但后来我们已经达到了有效的地步，这些事情确实节省了时间，作为产品经理，你必须发挥自己的创造力来弄清楚它如何帮助你，并耐心地迭代和继续尝试，因为我们今天拥有的模型已经可以做很多事情了。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。

I love your example of the PM and what they did with the Discord channel.

我喜欢你举的 PM 的例子以及他们对 Discord 频道所做的事情。

Is there anything else along those lines that either you've done to leverage some AI tool to be more productive or folks in your team have done to be more productive youth, either your product leaders or other folks?

您是否已经采取了其他措施来利用某些人工智能工具来提高工作效率，或者您的团队中的人员（无论是您的产品负责人还是其他人员）为提高工作效率而采取了其他措施？

Tamar Yehoshua: So many examples.

Tamar Yehoshua：很多例子。

So one that I did really recently is I wrote a prompt in Glean to help me get the status of features.

我最近所做的一件事是在 Glean 中编写了一条提示来帮助我获取功能的状态。

And we have a Launch Cal, and you can look at Launch Cal it'll say a date.

我们有一个 Launch Cal，您可以查看 Launch Cal，它会显示日期。

But then is it really the date?

但这真的是日期吗？

What are the outstanding issues?

还有哪些突出问题？

So it will look at our Launch Cal and it will see if there are any open year tickets, what the Slack conversations are and the customers who are beta testing it, bring all these together to tell me, okay, launch date is this according to Launch Cal, but here are all the open issues and here are the open conversations that people are talking about.

因此，它将查看我们的 Launch Cal，看看是否有任何开放年票、Slack 对话是什么以及正在进行 Beta 测试的客户，将所有这些放在一起告诉我，好吧，根据 Launch Cal 的发布日期是这样的，但这里是所有未解决的问题，这里是人们正在谈论的公开对话。

So then it can give me the confidence level of the future looking.

那么它可以给我对未来展望的信心。

So I can run the prompt, just put in the name of the feature.

这样我就可以运行提示，只需输入功能名称即可。

So I don't have to read all of these channels.

所以我不必阅读所有这些频道。

Tamar Yehoshua: So this is a prompt that I built two weeks ago because we're advancing our prompting capabilities.

Tamar Yehoshua：这是我两周前创建的提示，因为我们正在提高提示功能。

And so I was testing it out and I was like, "Ooh, I could do this." So that's another example and engineers are using it for automating part of the incident management of I got an incident, how do I see were their previous incidents that were similar to it, where they're not.

所以我正在测试它，我想，“哦，我可以做到这一点。”这是另一个例子，工程师正在使用它来自动化部分事件管理，我遇到了一个事件，我如何看到他们以前的事件是否与它相似，而它们不是。

And so these are the type of things you can look at to help you.

因此，这些都是您可以关注的类型，可以为您提供帮助。

But the simplest, simplest is there's so much news.

但最简单、最简单的就是有这么多新闻。

Let me just paste in all of these things and summarize them.

让我将所有这些内容粘贴并总结一下。

As a product manager at Gleam, here are all the latest news.

作为 Gleam 的产品经理，这里有所有最新消息。

What do I have to care about?

我需要关心什么？

What's impacting me and potentially competitive to any of the products that I have?

是什么在影响我以及对我拥有的任何产品具有潜在竞争力？

Lenny Rachitsky: And putting that into say Claude or ChatGPT you're saying.

Lenny Rachitsky：将其放入您所说的 Claude 或 ChatGPT 中。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。

I think that beginning of the prompt is something a lot of people don't know is the power of just giving it a role like you are a product manager at Gleam.

我认为很多人不知道提示的开头是赋予它一个角色的力量，就像你是 Gleam 的产品经理一样。

From that perspective, give me this summary versus just summarize this and that ends up being really powerful right.

从这个角度来看，给我这个总结而不是仅仅总结这个，最终会变得非常强大，对吧。

Tamar Yehoshua: A hundred percent.

Tamar Yehoshua：百分之一百。

And you can compare what is Claude's PR saying that ...

你可以比较一下克劳德的公关是怎么说的……

They just launched Claude Enterprise.

他们刚刚推出了 Claude Enterprise。

How is Claude Enterprise different from OpenAI Enterprise?

Claude Enterprise 与 OpenAI Enterprise 有何不同？

Again, you can do it yourself, but these micro improvements in your productivity help.

同样，您可以自己做，但这些对您生产力的微小改进会有所帮助。

For my newsletter, I interviewed Claire Vo who came out with ChatPRD.

在我的时事通讯中，我采访了来自 ChatPRD 的 Claire Vo。

And so product managers are using is.

所以产品经理正在使用 is。

We're just starting to evaluate it internally, so I haven't personally used it yet, but it's super cool and you can use ChatGPT to do a PRD.

我们刚刚开始在内部评估它，所以我还没有亲自使用过它，但它非常酷，你可以使用 ChatGPT 来做 PRD。

And ChatPRD, it's more templatized and more frameworks of how to do that.

而 ChatPRD，它更加模板化，并且有更多关于如何做到这一点的框架。

And again, these things are going to keep getting better.

再说一遍，这些事情将会不断变得更好。

Lenny Rachitsky: Claire's been on the podcast, she's going to be speaking at the Lenny and Friends Summit coming up October 24th.

Lenny Rachitsky：Claire 一直在播客，她将在 10 月 24 日举行的 Lenny 和朋友峰会上发表讲话。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。

A crazy stat she shared.

她分享了一个疯狂的统计数据。

She's making six figures off this product that she builds on the weekends ChatPRD.

她利用周末在 ChatPRD 上开发的这款产品赚取了六位数的收入。

Tamar Yehoshua: But it also shows what you can build with AI.

Tamar Yehoshua：但它也展示了你可以用人工智能构建什么。

Lenny Rachitsky: Right.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：对。

It's just her.

这只是她。

I think she just recently hired some engineers to help because she has three kids CTO at LaunchDarkly and just is building this on the side making a hundred thousand plus dollars.

我想她最近刚刚聘请了一些工程师来帮忙，因为她在 LaunchDarkly 拥有三个孩子的首席技术官，并且正在一边构建这个项目一边赚取十万多美元。

Incredible.

极好的。

I want to add a couple of things here.

我想在这里补充几件事。

So one is for folks looking for ideas for how to use AI tooling for their PM job.

因此，它适合那些正在寻找如何使用人工智能工具来完成 PM 工作的想法的人们。

There's a couple of posts I've written that I'll link to in the show notes just to put that out there of just a bunch of PM sharing, here's what I've done with these various tools.

我写了几篇文章，我将在展示笔记中链接到它们，只是为了将其放在一堆 PM 共享中，以下是我使用这些不同工具所做的事情。

Another thought I'd love to get your take on.

我的另一个想法很想听听你的看法。

There's a lot of fear that the PM job be replaced by AI.

人们非常担心产品经理的工作会被人工智能取代。

And I've recently realized that it's the opposite.

我最近意识到事实恰恰相反。

I think the PM role is the best positioned to thrive in the world of AI because if you just think about you have a tool that can just build a thing for you, just like you're staring at this blank thing that can build anything for you, which function would you think would have the best chance of asking it of what to build and how to articulate what to build best?

我认为 PM 角色是在人工智能世界中蓬勃发展的最佳位置，因为如果你只想到你有一个工具可以为你构建一个东西，就像你盯着这个可以为你构建任何东西的空白东西一样，你认为哪个功能最有可能询问它要构建什么以及如何阐明最好构建什么？

Lenny Rachitsky: To me, it's clearly Product People.

Lenny Rachitsky：对我来说，这显然是产品人员。

They're best at figuring out what to build, what matters most, where the impact's going to be what customers need.

他们最擅长弄清楚要构建什么、什么是最重要的、以及客户需要的影响力。

Not to say other functions don't also have the skills, but I feel like of all functions, PMs have the most of that specific skill.

并不是说其他​​职能部门没有这些技能，但我觉得在所有职能部门中，PM 拥有最多的特定技能。

I'd love to get your take on that.

我很想听听你对此的看法。

Tamar Yehoshua: That.

塔玛尔·耶霍舒亚：那个。

I think that AI, the one thing it's not good at is being creative.

我认为人工智能不擅长的一件事就是创造力。

So if you're a PM who's doing the grout work, it's going to take your job away.

因此，如果您是负责灌浆工作的产品经理，那么您的工作就会被抢走。

But if you're a PM who actually is strategic and can pull the pieces together and be creative and think how you do something that it's going to differentiate.

但如果你是一位真正具有战略眼光的产品经理，能够将各个部分整合在一起并具有创造力，并思考如何做某件事，那么它就会与众不同。

Because it's not going to give you that leak.

因为它不会给你泄漏。

It'll say, here's what customers are asking for, here are the problems today, but you have to figure out how to solve it.

它会说，这是客户的要求，这是今天的问题，但你必须弄清楚如何解决它。

So in some ways it might weed out the good from the bad PMs.

因此，在某些方面，它可能会淘汰掉坏 PM 中的好人。

Because there are a significant number of PMs who are more just execution.

因为有相当多的 PM 更注重执行。

And I think that part of the job hopefully will be lowered because I hope a lot more of the execution will be able to automate updating Jira and all these things that just take time and creating even little Launch Cals, which PMs have to do manually now.

我认为这部分工作有望减少，因为我希望更多的执行工作能够自动更新 Jira 以及所有这些只需要时间并创建甚至很少的启动校准的事情，而 PM 现在必须手动完成这些工作。

So hopefully a lot of that work goes away and then people can be more creative.

因此，希望很多工作能够消失，这样人们就可以变得更有创造力。

And I think designers and PMs are going to blend because the best designers I've worked with are product thinkers and a lot of really good PMs can also design.

我认为设计师和产品经理将会融合在一起，因为我合作过的最好的设计师都是产品思考者，而且很多非常优秀的产品经理也可以设计。

It depends on what kind of product you're PMing for.

这取决于您要PM 的产品类型。

So I agree with the caveat that it will become harder to be a great PM.

因此，我同意这样的警告：成为一名优秀的总理将变得更加困难。

Lenny Rachitsky: Wait, say more about that.

Lenny Rachitsky：等等，多说一点。

It'll be harder to be a great PM because many PMs are doing things that are mostly project management and that's the stuff that-

成为一名出色的 PM 会更加困难，因为许多 PM 所做的事情主要是项目管理，而这些事情是 -

Tamar Yehoshua: Yeah.

塔玛尔·耶霍舒亚：是的。

Let me rephrase.

让我重新表述一下。

It's not going to be harder to be a great PM, but to be a PM, the not so good PMs jobs will go away.

成为一名优秀的 PM 并不难，但成为一名 PM 后，那些不太好的 PM 工作就会消失。

The great PMs will still have great jobs.

伟大的产品经理仍然会拥有伟大的工作。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。

I totally hear you.

我完全听到了。

So in a sense there might be fewer.

所以从某种意义上说，可能会更少。

You might need fewer PMs, but I think that applies in theory to every function.

您可能需要更少的产品经理，但我认为这在理论上适用于每个职能。

Fewer engineers.

工程师更少。

Fewer designers.

设计师更少。

Tamar Yehoshua: I don't think you'll need fewer.

Tamar Yehoshua：我认为您不会需要更少。

I think you'll be able to do more things.

我想你能够做更多的事情。

Think about every company.

想想每家公司。

Our head of sales came to me the other day, "You need to hire more engineers because we just have so many things we need to build." I'm like, "When have you ever worked in a company where you thought that you didn't need more engineers?" You always want people to build more stuff.

有一天，我们的销售主管来找我，“你需要雇用更多的工程师，因为我们需要建造很多东西。”我想，“你什么时候在一家你认为不需要更多工程师的公司工作过？”你总是希望人们建造更多的东西。

So I don't think you're going to need fewer.

所以我认为你不会需要更少。

I think you're just going to get so much more done.

我认为你将会完成更多的事情。

Lenny Rachitsky: A lot of people are building AI into their product.

Lenny Rachitsky：很多人正在将人工智能构建到他们的产品中。

Glean is obviously an example which integrates LLMs, which innately are non-deterministic and hard to know if they're going to provide anything good.

Glean 显然是一个整合了法学硕士的例子，法学硕士本质上是不确定的，很难知道它们是否会提供任何好的东西。

Sometimes something really dumb comes out.

有时会出现一些非常愚蠢的事情。

Do you have any advice on working with these very complicated systems that don't necessarily ...

对于使用这些非常复杂的系统（不一定......），您有什么建议吗？

You can't control and building them into your products?

您无法控制并将它们构建到您的产品中？

Anything you've learned that might be helpful?

您学到的任何东西可能有帮助吗？

Tamar Yehoshua: My first week at Glean was eye-opening in learning some of these things.

Tamar Yehoshua：我在 Glean 的第一周学到了一些东西，让我大开眼界。

But let me first just explain what Glean does for people who may not know.

但首先让我向可能不知道的人解释一下 Glean 的作用。

So Glean was started as enterprise search.

因此，Glean 最初是作为企业搜索开始的。

Glean reads content of all your SaaS apps.

Glean 读取所有 SaaS 应用程序的内容。

So it reads the content from Microsoft, Google, Slack, Salesforce, Jira, like any SaaS tool that you use, it indexes it and enables you to search.

因此，它会读取来自 Microsoft、Google、Slack、Salesforce、Jira 的内容，就像您使用的任何 SaaS 工具一样，它会对其进行索引并允许您进行搜索。

So it started as just enterprise search and using AI.

因此，它一开始只是企业搜索和使用人工智能。

So it was an AI search using BERT models and using vector embeddings in 2019.

所以这是 2019 年使用 BERT 模型和向量嵌入的人工智能搜索。

Because the early engineers at Glean came from Google and Google created BERT to enhance search.

因为 Glean 的早期工程师来自 Google，Google 创建了 BERT 来增强搜索。

And so it was obvious that they would be using ML techniques for search.

因此很明显他们将使用机器学习技术进行搜索。

Then GPT3 came along and added a natural language interface, a chat interface.

然后GPT3出现了，添加了一个自然语言界面，一个聊天界面。

You can ask the question in actual language and get an answer, and it basically is a knowledge graph of your organization.

您可以用实际语言提出问题并获得答案，它基本上是您组织的知识图谱。

So you can ask any question.

所以你可以提出任何问题。

Think of ChatGPT for your enterprise.

为您的企业考虑 ChatGPT。

Ask any question about your enterprise.

询问有关您的企业的任何问题。

Tamar Yehoshua: So people understand search because they understand Google and you put in a query and then you refine it.

Tamar Yehoshua：所以人们理解搜索是因为他们理解谷歌，你输入一个查询，然后你完善它。

But chat interfaces, people still don't really know how to use.

但聊天界面，人们还不太懂得如何使用。

If you look at the stats from ChatGPT, from what I understand, the retention is fairly low.

如果你看一下 ChatGPT 的统计数据，据我了解，保留率相当低。

People use it, they play with it, and then they don't get back to it because it's not in their workflow and they have a hard time figuring out what they can and can't do for it.

人们使用它，玩弄它，然后他们就不再使用它，因为它不在他们的工作流程中，而且他们很难弄清楚他们可以做什么和不能做什么。

When I got to Glean the first week I met with the assistant quality team and one of the biggest issues they have is people trying to use Glean for things that there's no way it could know.

当我到达 Glean 的第一周，我会见了助理质量团队，他们遇到的最大问题之一是人们试图使用 Glean 来做一些它无法知道的事情。

Like what should my top priority be next week when we don't even know what your priorities are.

就像下周我的首要任务是什么一样，而我们甚至不知道你的优先任务是什么。

But then there's golden cases that are just amazing.

但还有一些令人惊叹的金色案例。

Tamar Yehoshua: The example of refining queries and searched years for people to understand how to do.

Tamar Yehoshua：提炼查询和搜索多年的例子，让人们了解如何做。

And it took a lot of features of auto complete and refinements at the bottom of the page.

它需要很多自动完成功能和页面底部的改进功能。

So we need to build in those things, guardrails to help with the change.

所以我们需要建立这些东西，护栏来帮助改变。

To help suggest, oh, Lenny, here's what you could do.

为了帮助建议，哦，莱尼，这就是你可以做的。

Here's a prompt to find out the status of your feature that Tamar built.

这里有一个提示，用于了解 Tamar 构建的功能的状态。

So how do you give people guardrails so that they understand what is going to work and what isn't going to work?

那么，如何为人们提供护栏，以便他们了解什么行得通、什么行不通呢？

Because this whole, I don't know what I can ask.

因为这一切，我不知道我能问什么。

And then on top of that, the non-deterministic.

除此之外，还有不确定性。

An enterprise CIO will go use ChatGPT on the weekends, but they come to work and they expect their software to be deterministic.

企业 CIO 会在周末使用 ChatGPT，但他们上班时希望他们的软件具有确定性。

So how do you help educate users about that?

那么你如何帮助用户了解这一点呢？

Tamar Yehoshua: And then the other thing I'll say about using LLMs is the industry is transforming so rapidly that you need to make sure that your product gets better as the LLMs get better.

Tamar Yehoshua：关于使用法学硕士，我要说的另一件事是，这个行业正在迅速转型，你需要确保你的产品随着法学硕士的进步而变得更好。

And that too many people are building things to make up and compensate for the LLMs that all that work is going to go away.

太多的人正在构建东西来弥补和补偿法学硕士，所有的工作都将消失。

So it's okay to do it to understand that it's going to go away, but that can't be your differentiator.

因此，了解它会消失是可以的，但这不能成为你的差异化因素。

You have to understand that your differentiator is something that will continue to be there as the LLMs get better and smarter.

你必须明白，随着法学硕士变得更好、更聪明，你的优势将继续存在。

Lenny Rachitsky: And as part of that, because the LLMs get so much smarter, everyone else will become awesome.

Lenny Rachitsky：作为其中的一部分，因为法学硕士变得更加聪明，其他人都会变得很棒。

And to keep up, you need something that is actually outside of the LLM that continues to differentiate you and is better than what other people are doing.

为了跟上步伐，你需要一些在法学硕士之外的东西，这些东西能够继续让你脱颖而出，并且比其他人所做的更好。

Tamar Yehoshua: Well, yeah.

Tamar Yehoshua：嗯，是的。

That your whole product gets better as the LLMs get better.

随着法学硕士的进步，你的整个产品也会变得更好。

Tamar Yehoshua: It's a frame of a of mind of how you approach the value add you're having.

Tamar Yehoshua：这是您如何实现所拥有的附加值的心态。

Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

Tamar, to close out our conversation, is there anything else that we did not cover that you think is important to share or you think might be helpful to leave listeners with before we get to our very exciting lightning round?

Tamar，作为我们谈话的结束语，在我们开始激动人心的闪电回合之前，还有什么我们没有提到但您认为需要分享的重要内容或者您认为可能对留给听众有帮助的内容吗？

Tamar Yehoshua: I in my decades of working in tech, have never been working in an environment that's moving so quickly and it's really exciting.

Tamar Yehoshua：我在科技行业工作了几十年，从来没有在一个变化如此之快、非常令人兴奋的环境中工作。

It's super energizing and it's also scary.

它超级充满活力，但也很可怕。

But you have to change how you're working.

但你必须改变你的工作方式。

You have to change how you're working so that you can keep up because it's going to be an interesting decade ahead with all these new tools that are coming out.

你必须改变你的工作方式，这样你才能跟上，因为随着所有这些新工具的出现，未来的十年将是一个有趣的十年。

And staying ahead will be hard, but it's also, there's so much I think richness and opportunity here.

保持领先会很困难，但我认为这里有很多财富和机会。

So I advise people to get in the thick of it and try it out because you'll be surprised at how many products we can build.

所以我建议人们深入研究并尝试一下，因为你会对我们可以制造出多少产品感到惊讶。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love that.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢这个。

I can't help but drill in one level deeper.

我忍不住再深入一层。

Is there anything you found to help you stay ahead and help you stay aware of what's happening?

您发现什么可以帮助您保持领先并帮助您了解正在发生的事情吗？

Are there newsletters you find useful?

有您认为有用的时事通讯吗？

Chat, podcasts that just help you keep up to date on where things are going?

聊天、播客只是帮助您了解最新动态？

Is it like a person you look to like, "Hey, what's new?"

这就像一个你看起来喜欢的人，“嘿，有什么新鲜事吗？”

Tamar Yehoshua: There are definitely AI newsletters that I look at.

Tamar Yehoshua：我肯定会看一些人工智能时事通讯。

There's AI podcasts that I listen to.

我听一些人工智能播客。

I now have a commute, so in some ways that's good because I get to keep up on the AI podcasts.

我现在可以通勤，所以从某些方面来说这很好，因为我可以跟上人工智能播客的节奏。

So I just try and listen.

所以我只是尝试倾听。

I'm trying to build some prompts for myself to make it easier to say ...

我正在尝试为自己建立一些提示，以便更容易地说...

Take in ...

采取...

I haven't perfected this, but the ChatGPT voice mode where you can load it.

我还没有完善这个，但是 ChatGPT 语音模式可以加载它。

Somebody who I just hired it at Glean was saying he does this.

我刚刚在 Glean 雇佣的一个人说他就是这么做的。

He loads up stuff before his commute and then he'll be like summarize these articles and then he can ask questions to it.

他在上下班之前加载一些东西，然后他会总结这些文章，然后他可以提出问题。

So I need to up my game there.

所以我需要在那里提高我的水平。

But I definitely have a list of Ben's Bites and The Neuron.

但我确实有一份《Ben's Bites》和《The Neuron》的清单。

Those are good summaries and I like Gil and Sarah Guo's podcast.

这些都是很好的总结，我喜欢吉尔和萨拉·郭的播客。

I listen to Cognitive Revolution.

我听认知革命。

There's too many of them right now, but I pick and choose.

现在数量太多了，但我会挑选。

Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

Okay.

好的。

We'll link to those ones you just mentioned in the show notes.

我们将链接到您刚刚在演出笔记中提到的那些内容。

We'll have Gil and Sarah Guo's podcast, it's called No Priors.

我们将收听吉尔和萨拉·郭的播客，名为“No Priors”。

I was actually just listening to it on the way here.

其实我只是在来这里的路上听的。

Sarah is going to also be at Lenny's and Friends Summit.

莎拉也将参加莱尼和朋友峰会。

She's going to be moderating a panel between Kevin Weil and Mikey Krieger who are the CPOs of Anthropic and Open AI.

她将主持由 Anthropic 和 Open AI 的 CPO Kevin Weil 和 Mikey Krieger 主持的小组讨论。

So there we go.

我们就这样吧。

Another quick plug for lennyandfriendssummit.com.

lennyandfriendssummit.com 的另一个快速插件。

I think it's lennyssummit.com.

我认为是 lennyssummit.com。

Lenny Rachitsky: With that Tamar we've reached our very exciting lightning round.

Lenny Rachitsky：有了 Tamar，我们就进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。

Are you ready?

你准备好了吗？

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, let's do this.

Lenny Rachitsky：好的，我们开始吧。

First question, what are two or three books that you have recommended most to other people?

第一个问题，您向其他人推荐最多的两三本书是什么？

Tamar Yehoshua: So one book was recommended to me by Shashir, the CEO of Cota.

Tamar Yehoshua：Cota 首席执行官 Shashir 向我推荐了一本书。

When I started at Slack, he recommended the book Switch: How to Change Things When Change Is Hard by Chip and Dan Heath.

当我开始在 Slack 工作时，他推荐了 Chip 和 Dan Heath 写的《Switch: How to Change Things When Change Is Hard》一书。

And it's such a good book.

这真是一本好书。

And it's about how do you set a path for people to follow.

这是关于如何为人们设定一条可以遵循的道路。

It's the whole elephant and the rider.

这是整个大象和骑手。

So setting the path but yet motivating people to go down the path.

因此，既要设定道路，又要激励人们沿着这条路走下去。

And I read it.

我读了它。

We had an all hands about ...

我们全力以赴......

I don't even remember the topic.

我什至不记得主题了。

It was something that we were like all up in arms about that we had to do.

这是我们必须要做的事情。

And I had just read the book and after the all hands I went up to store it and I'm like, "You did that all wrong.

我刚刚读完这本书，在所有人都把它收起来之后，我就想，“你完全错了。

You need to read this book.

你需要读这本书。

That is not how to get people motivated." And he read the book and he's like, "You're right." So it just changes how you think in organizations to affect change.

这不是激励人们积极性的方法。”他读了这本书，然后说：“你是对的。”所以它只会改变你在组织中的思维方式来影响变革。

So that's on the organizational leadership.

这就是组织领导的问题。

And one book I really liked was a Team of Rivals.

我真正喜欢的一本书是《竞争对手的团队》。

It's a book about Lincoln and putting together his cabinet during the Civil War.

这是一本关于林肯在内战期间组建内阁的书。

One, I just learned a lot about the Civil War that I didn't really know.

第一，我刚刚了解了很多我并不真正了解的内战。

And it's about, again, a book about leadership and it is fascinating.

这又是一本关于领导力的书，非常有趣。

Lenny Rachitsky: I don't think anyone's recommended either of these.

Lenny Rachitsky：我认为没有人推荐其中任何一个。

So love them.

所以爱他们。

Next question, do you have a favorite recent movie or TV show you really enjoyed?

下一个问题，您最近有最喜欢的电影或电视节目吗？

Tamar Yehoshua: I don't know if you like British murder mysteries.

Tamar Yehoshua：我不知道你是否喜欢英国谋杀悬疑片。

Tamar Yehoshua: It's a niche thing, but there's a guy named Anthony Horowitz and the latest series he did was called Magpie Murders.

Tamar Yehoshua：这是一个小众的东西，但是有一个叫安东尼·霍洛维茨（Anthony Horowitz）的人，他制作的最新系列叫做《喜鹊谋杀案》。

And it's just an intricate story so I enjoyed it.

这只是一个复杂的故事，所以我很喜欢它。

Lenny Rachitsky: Very niche but amazing.

Lenny Rachitsky：非常小众但令人惊叹。

Do you have a favorite product you've recently discovered that you really like?

您最近发现了您真正喜欢的最喜欢的产品吗？

Tamar Yehoshua: Well, I'm going to give two.

Tamar Yehoshua：好吧，我要给两个。

One is tech and one is non-tech.

一种是技术类，一种是非技术类。

So non-tech I really like dark chocolate.

所以非技术性的我真的很喜欢黑巧克力。

Lenny Rachitsky: Actually just like a dark chocolate bar.

Lenny Rachitsky：实际上就像一块黑巧克力。

Tamar Yehoshua: A really good dark chocolate that's simple.

Tamar Yehoshua：一种非常好的黑巧克力，很简单。

Like no frills, none of this.

就像没有多余的装饰一样，没有这些。

Just dark chocolate.

只是黑巧克力。

And I discovered this chocolate called Bisou chocolate.

我发现了这种叫做 Bisou 巧克力的巧克力。

It's a guy in Oakland who makes it himself.

这是奥克兰的一个人自己做的。

Super niche.

超级小众。

He was selling at the farmer's market.

他在农贸市场卖东西。

And it's just like if you want like a simple play, no nuts, no anything just-

就像如果你想要一个简单的游戏，没有坚果，什么都没有——

Tamar Yehoshua: Great pride in the beans he resources them from.

Tamar Yehoshua：对他所用的豆子感到非常自豪。

Lenny Rachitsky: Wow.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：哇。

It's called Bisou with a B?

它叫 Bisou 带 B 吗？

Tamar Yehoshua: Yeah.

塔玛尔·耶霍舒亚：是的。

Bisou as in Kiss in French.

Bisou 如同法语中的 Kiss。

And then on the tech side, the honest answer is Glean.

然后在技术方面，诚实的答案是 Glean。

I was listening to your podcast with Nikita who said that people over 22 don't use new products except at work.

我和 Nikita 一起听你的播客，他说 22 岁以上的人除了工作之外不会使用新产品。

And that stuck with me.

这一直困扰着我。

The new products I usually use are at work and I use Glean 10, 15 times a day.

我通常使用的新产品是在工作中，我每天使用Glean 10、15次。

I use it so much and it changed the way I onboarded.

我经常使用它，它改变了我的入职方式。

It changed the way I work.

它改变了我的工作方式。

Even the simplest questions, you don't bother people, you don't interrupt people on Slack.

即使是最简单的问题，你也不会打扰别人，也不会在 Slack 上打断别人。

You're like, "What's the latest status with this deal?

你会问，“这笔交易的最新进展如何？

What's the last time we talked to them?" I meet somebody at a conference and I can quickly say, "Have we ever talked to this company before?" And I can just get an answer.

我们上次和他们说话是什么时候？”我在会议上遇到某人，我可以很快说：“我们以前和这家公司谈过吗？”我就能得到答案。

Or without asking an engineer, "Where's the latest design doc?" It has really transformed how I work.

或者不问工程师“最新的设计文档在哪里？”它确实改变了我的工作方式。

So I know it's cheating in that it's the product I work on, but it's the actual honest answer.

所以我知道这是作弊，因为这是我正在开发的产品，但这是真正诚实的答案。

Lenny Rachitsky: And for folks that haven't heard of Glean, it's one of the most successful B2B AI companies out there.

Lenny Rachitsky：对于那些没有听说过 Glean 的人来说，它是最成功的 B2B 人工智能公司之一。

It's like a very large successful business and company that if you haven't checked it out, you should definitely check it out.

这就像一个非常大的成功企业和公司，如果你还没有检查过，你一定应该检查一下。

Tamar Yehoshua: As our investors say, it's one of the AI companies that's actually making money.

Tamar Yehoshua：正如我们的投资者所说，它是真正赚钱的人工智能公司之一。

Lenny Rachitsky: Very few of those.

Lenny Rachitsky：很少。

Awesome.

惊人的。

Two more questions.

还有两个问题。

Do you have a favorite life motto that you often come back to, repeat yourself, share with friends or family and work or in life?

您是否有一条最喜欢的人生格言，您经常回顾、重复自己、与朋友、家人、工作或生活分享？

Tamar Yehoshua: I have one that my father told me when I was being really indecisive about what college to go to.

Tamar Yehoshua：当我对于去哪所大学犹豫不决时，我父亲告诉我的。

He was really bored of the conversation and he said, "There are no right decisions.

他真的对这样的谈话感到厌烦，他说：“没有正确的决定。

You make a decision right." And it is so true.

你的决定是对的。”事实如此。

Because you never know what's going to happen in life.

因为你永远不知道生活中会发生什么。

You just have to commit to whatever you're doing and have no regrets about it.

你只需要致力于你正在做的事情，并且不要后悔。

You can't be like, "Oh," 10 years later, "what if I had taken that job over there?" It's like you make your success based on how you approach the decisions that you've made.

十年后，你不能说，“哦，”“如果我接受了那里的工作怎么办？”这就像你的成功取决于你如何对待你所做的决定。

Lenny Rachitsky: So if you feel regret about something, this is a good one to pull out of just I will make this the best I can make it, and that's all the best I can do.

Lenny Rachitsky：所以，如果你对某件事感到遗憾，这是一个很好的选择，我会尽我所能，这就是我能做的最好的事情。

Lenny Rachitsky: Move forward.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：继续前进。

I love that.

我喜欢那个。

Last question, I know you're a parent.

最后一个问题，我知道你是一位家长。

I'm a new parent.

我是一位新父母。

I have a 14-month old at this point.

我现在有一个14个月大的孩子。

Is there a piece of parenting advice that you learned early on that you think might be helpful to me or folks that are new parents or something you've just learned yourself that you think might be helpful?

您是否有一些早期学到的、您认为可能对我或新父母有帮助的育儿建议，或者您自己刚刚学到的、您认为可能有帮助的东西？

Tamar Yehoshua: 14 months.

Tamar Yehoshua：14 个月。

I think the best parenting book I read besides the How to Talk So Your Kids Will Listen & How to Listen so Your Kid Will Talk is, I think it's called Healthy Sleep Habits, Happy Baby.

我认为除了《如何说，让孩子会听》和《如何听，让孩子会说话》之外，我读过的最好的育儿书是《健康睡眠习惯，快乐宝贝》。

We are much happier when we sleep well.

当我们睡得好时，我们会更快乐。

We perform better at work when we sleep well.

当我们睡眠良好时，我们的工作表现会更好。

Children need to sleep.

孩子们需要睡觉。

So making sure that they sleep well.

所以要确保他们睡得好。

And sometimes that's like, I did the whole sleep training, cry until you fall asleep and my kids still speak to me.

有时就像，我做了整个睡眠训练，哭到你睡着，而我的孩子仍然跟我说话。

So it was okay.

所以没关系。

That is the basic things.

这就是基本的事情。

Make sure that their basic needs are met and then as they grow up, share your life with them.

确保满足他们的基本需求，然后随着他们的成长，与他们分享你的生活。

So a piece of advice I was given was analogous to Talk so your Kids Will Listen is when they had come home from school.

因此，我收到的一条建议类似于孩子放学回家时说的话，这样你的孩子就会听。

You can't just say, "How was your day?" Say, "You know what?

你不能只说：“今天过得怎么样？”说：“你知道吗？

I did a podcast with this person and it was super interesting because they talked about this or that." Or, "I'm massively screwed up and I should have asked them this or that." And they'll be like, "Oh my God, I was at school today and this is what happened." If you share your life with them, they will share their life with you.

我和这个人做了一个播客，非常有趣，因为他们谈论这个或那个。”或者，“我彻底搞砸了，我应该问他们这个或那个。”他们会说，“天哪，我今天在学校，这就是发生的事情。”如果你与他们分享你的生活，他们也会与你分享他们的生活。

Lenny Rachitsky: Such good advice.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：非常好的建议。

I really appreciate it.

我真的很感激。

Tamar, thank you so much for being here.

塔玛，非常感谢你来到这里。

You're awesome.

你太棒了。

We got through so much great stuff.

我们经历了很多伟大的事情。

Everything I was hoping we get through.

我希望我们能度过的一切。

Two final questions.

最后两个问题。

Where can folks find you if they want to read up on more stuff that you share and just follow you online and how can listeners be useful to you?

如果人们想阅读您分享的更多内容并在线关注您，可以在哪里找到您？听众如何对您有用？

Tamar Yehoshua: Find me on LinkedIn and I have a subject called Practical Intelligence where I've been interviewing practitioners who are working with AI.

Tamar Yehoshua：在 LinkedIn 上找到我，我有一个名为实用智能的主题，我一直在采访人工智能领域的从业者。

It was my way of learning.

这是我的学习方式。

I started when I was a VC.

我从担任 VC 的时候就开始了。

Trying to continue doing it.

尝试继续做下去。

And how can I be helpful if you are a customer of Glean, I'd love to know what you think, what works and what does more.

如果您是 Glean 的客户，我可以为您提供什么帮助，我很想知道您的想法、什么有效以及什么有更多作用。

Lenny Rachitsky: What's the best way to share that with you?

Lenny Rachitsky：与您分享这一点的最佳方式是什么？

Is it like messaging on LinkedIn, subscribe to Substack?

是不是像在 LinkedIn 上发送消息、订阅 Substack 一样？

Tamar Yehoshua: Message on LinkedIn, or comment on your-

Tamar Yehoshua：在 LinkedIn 上留言，或评论您的-

Tamar Yehoshua: Yeah.

塔玛尔·耶霍舒亚：是的。

Those would probably be the two ways.

这可能是两种方式。

Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

Tamar, thank you so much for being here.

塔玛，非常感谢你来到这里。

Bye, everyone.: Thank you so much for listening.

再见，大家：非常感谢您的聆听。

If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.

如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.

您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。