Hot takes and techno-optimism from tech’s top power couple | Sriram and Aarthi
Sriram Krishnan: I hate Jobs-to-be-Done, I think it is a terrible framework, I think no successful company has ever been built on top of JTBD and if you pick JTBD, you're probably doomed and I'll give you an example.
Sriram Krishnan：我讨厌“Jobs-to-be-Done”，我认为这是一个糟糕的框架，我认为没有任何成功的公司是建立在 JTBD 之上的，如果你选择 JTBD，你可能注定要失败，我会给你一个例子。
When you sign up for Instagram right now, when you sign up for Facebook for many, many years, Facebook knew that it needed to get you to 10 friends in 14 days.
当你现在注册 Instagram 时，当你注册 Facebook 很多很多年时，Facebook 知道它需要在 14 天内让你结识 10 个朋友。
If you got your 10 friends in 14 days, you were probably going to use Facebook.
如果你在 14 天内有了 10 个朋友，你可能会使用 Facebook。
So it'd be like, "Well, we're going to throw every tool we have at our disposal to get you to 10 friends and 14 days."
所以就像是，“好吧，我们将使用我们可以使用的所有工具，让你在 14 天里结识 10 个朋友。”
Sriram Krishnan: So if you signed up for Facebook for many, many years, you'll get this little thing called People You May Know.
Sriram Krishnan：所以如果你注册 Facebook 很多很多年，你就会得到一个叫做“你可能认识的人”的小东西。
Then you'll have this person who just signed up for Facebook, you go, "Why I'm seeing this person?" It's not because you need a friend, because they need a friend.
然后你会看到这个刚刚注册了 Facebook 的人，你会问：“为什么我会看到这个人？”不是因为你需要朋友，而是因为他们需要朋友。
So what Facebook did was it made your experience slightly worse to make that person's experience slightly better.
所以 Facebook 所做的就是让你的体验稍微变差，而让那个人的体验稍微好一点。
This was performing no job for you, it was trying to perform a job for them.
这不是为你做任何工作，而是试图为他们做某事。
Lenny: Welcome to Lenny's Podcast where I interview world-class product leaders and growth experts to learn from their hardware and experiences building and growing today's most successful products.
Lenny：欢迎来到 Lenny 的播客，我在这里采访了世界一流的产品领导者和增长专家，向他们学习构建和发展当今最成功产品的硬件和经验。
Today for the first time ever, I've got two guests, Aarthi Ramamurthy and Sriram Krishnan, both former product managers who between them worked at basically every major tech company including Netflix, Meta, Snap, Twitter, Microsoft, even Clubhouse.
今天，我有史以来第一次邀请到了两位嘉宾，Aarthi Ramamurthy 和 Sriram Krishnan，他们都是前产品经理，他们几乎都在各大科技公司工作过，包括 Netflix、Meta、Snap、Twitter、微软，甚至 Clubhouse。
Sriram is now a partner at a16z.
Sriram 现在是 a16z 的合伙人。
They're actually married and both individually amazing.
他们实际上已经结婚了，而且个人都很棒。
Together they host the Aarthi and Sriram Good Time Show, which started on Clubhouse, it's now on YouTube and famously they had Elon Musk on back in the day, which led to Clubhouse's crazy rocket ship growth, which we definitely touch on.
他们一起主持了 Aarthi 和 Sriram Good Time Show，该节目从 Clubhouse 开始，现在在 YouTube 上播出，最著名的是他们当时邀请了埃隆·马斯克 (Elon Musk) 参加，这导致了 Clubhouse 火箭飞船的疯狂增长，我们肯定会谈到这一点。
Lenny: This episode is definitely the most fun conversation I have had yet on this podcast.
莱尼：这一集绝对是我在这个播客上进行过的最有趣的对话。
We cover all kinds of areas, including this trend of techno optimism, building your network, creating content online and how to go about doing that, becoming a product leader, community building and a hilarious rant at the end about why the Jobs-to-be-Done framework does not work.
我们涵盖了各个领域，包括这种技术乐观主义趋势、建立你的网络、在线创建内容以及如何做到这一点、成为产品领导者、社区建设以及最后关于为什么“待完成的工作”框架不起作用的搞笑咆哮。
I had such a good time chatting with these two and I know you'll enjoy this episode.
我和这两个人聊得很开心，我知道你会喜欢这一集。
With that, I bring you Aarthi and Sriram after a short word from our select sponsors.
在我们选定的赞助商简短发言后，我为您带来了 Aarthi 和 Sriram。
Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Vanta, helping you streamline your security compliance to accelerate growth.
Lenny：本集由 Vanta 为您带来，可帮助您简化安全合规性以加速增长。
If your business stores any data in the cloud, then you've likely been asked or you're going to be asked about your SOC 2 compliance.
如果您的企业在云中存储任何数据，那么您可能会被询问或将被询问有关 SOC 2 合规性的问题。
SOC 2 is a way to prove your company is taking proper security measures to protect customer data and builds trust with customers and partners, especially those with serious security requirements.
SOC 2 是一种证明您的公司正在采取适当的安全措施来保护客户数据并与客户和合作伙伴（尤其是那些有严格安全要求的客户和合作伙伴）建立信任的方法。
Also, if you want to sell to the enterprise, proving security is essential.
此外，如果你想向企业销售产品，证明安全性至关重要。
SOC 2 can either open the door for bigger and better deals or it can put your business on hold.
SOC 2 可以为更大、更好的交易打开大门，也可以让您的业务暂停。
Lenny: If you don't have a SOC 2, there's a good chance you won't even get a seat at the table beginning.
Lenny：如果您没有 SOC 2，那么您很有可能连一开始的席位都没有。
Getting a SOC 2 report can be a huge burden, especially for startups.
获取 SOC 2 报告可能是一个巨大的负担，尤其是对于初创公司而言。
It's time-consuming, tedious and expensive.
这是耗时、乏味且昂贵的。
Enter Vanta.
输入万塔。
Over 3,000 fast-growing companies use Vanta to automate up to 90% of the work involved with SOC 2.
超过 3,000 家快速发展的公司使用 Vanta 自动化 SOC 2 涉及的高达 90% 的工作。
Vanta can get you ready for security audits in weeks instead of months, less than a third of the time that it usually takes.
Vanta 可以让您在几周而不是几个月内为安全审核做好准备，不到通常所需时间的三分之一。
For a limited time, Lenny's Podcast listeners get $1,000 off Vanta.
在有限的时间内，Lenny's Podcast 听众可享受 Vanta 1,000 美元优惠。
Just go to vanta.com/lenny, that's V-A-N-T-A.com/lenny to learn more and to claim your discount.
只需访问vanta.com/lenny（即 V-A-N-T-A.com/lenny）即可了解更多信息并申请折扣。
Get started today.
今天就开始吧。
Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Dovetail, the customer insights platform for teams that gets you from data to insights fast, no matter the method.
Lenny：本集由 Dovetail 为您带来，Dovetail 是一个面向团队的客户洞察平台，无论采用何种方法，都可以让您快速从数据获得洞察。
There's so much customer data to get through, from user interviews to NPS, sales calls, usability tests, support tickets, app reviews, it's a lot.
有大量的客户数据需要获取，从用户访谈到 NPS、销售电话、可用性测试、支持票证、应用程序评论，数量非常多。
And you know that if you're building something, hidden in that data are the insights that will lead you to building better products and that's where Dovetail can help.
而且您知道，如果您正在构建某些东西，隐藏在数据中的见解将引导您构建更好的产品，而这正是 Dovetail 可以提供帮助的地方。
Dovetail allows you to quickly analyze customer data from any source and transform it into evidence-based insights that your whole team can access.
Dovetail 允许您快速分析任何来源的客户数据，并将其转化为整个团队都可以访问的基于证据的见解。
If you're a product manager who needs insights to motivate your team, a designer validating your next big feature or researcher who needs to analyze fast, Dovetail is the collaborative insights platform your whole team can use.
如果您是需要洞察力来激励团队的产品经理、验证下一个重要功能的设计师或需要快速分析的研究人员，Dovetail 是整个团队都可以使用的协作洞察平台。
Go to dovetailapp.com/lenny to get started today for free.
立即前往 dovetailapp.com/lenny 免费开始使用。
That's dovetailapp.com/lenny.
那是 dovetailapp.com/lenny。
Lenny: Aarthi and Sriram, welcome to the podcast.
Lenny：Aarthi 和 Sriram，欢迎来到播客。
Aarthi Ramamurthy: Thank you.
阿尔蒂·拉玛莫西：谢谢。
Thanks so much for having us, Lenny.
非常感谢您邀请我们，莱尼。
This is a bucket list thing because we are on Lenny's Podcast.
这是一个愿望清单，因为我们在莱尼的播客上。
Sriram Krishnan: I know.
斯里拉姆·克里希南：我知道。
Longtime subscriber, listener and now here.
长期订阅者、听众，现在在这里。
Wow.
哇。
I don't want to screw this up.
我不想把这件事搞砸。
Sriram Krishnan: Yeah, first time caller.
Sriram Krishnan：是的，第一次打电话。
Yeah, let's not screw this up.
是的，我们别搞砸了。
Lenny: You guys are hilarious.
莱尼：你们真搞笑。
I appreciate it and feel very flattered.
我很感激，也感到受宠若惊。
You two are the first duo on this podcast and I couldn't think of a better two people to start this podcast with.
你们两个是这个播客的第一对二人组，我想不出更好的两个人来开始这个播客。
I have so much stuff I want to dig into.
我有很多东西想要挖掘。
I think we're going to have a lot of fun, so again, thanks for joining me here.
我想我们会玩得很开心，所以再次感谢您加入我的行列。
Aarthi Ramamurthy: It's awesome.
Aarthi Ramamurthy：太棒了。
Big fan.
大粉丝。
Yeah, honestly, this just...
是的，老实说，这只是...
I'm excited.
我很兴奋。
Lenny: So I don't know if you remember this, I was thinking about this story, back when you were doing the Good Time Show, you invited me on the Good Time Show and I was thinking, hesitating, like, "I don't know, that's kind of scary." And then the next day, Elon came on and then it just blew up and I was like, "Shit, I missed my chance." And then became really fancy people and I was like, "I'm not ever going to make it back on there." And so I look back at that as like, "Oh, I hesitated too long.
莱尼：所以我不知道你是否还记得这个，我在想这个故事，当你做《好时光秀》的时候，你邀请我参加《好时光秀》，我在想，犹豫，就像，“我不知道，这有点可怕。”第二天，埃隆上场了，然后事情就爆发了，我当时想，“妈的，我错过了机会。”然后我就变成了非常奇特的人，我当时想，“我永远不会再回到那里了。”所以我回想起来就像是，“哦，我犹豫了太久了。
That's a lesson."
这是一个教训。”
Sriram Krishnan: Well, the way you should interpret that is, "They couldn't get me on, so their backup choice was Elon.
Sriram Krishnan：嗯，你应该这样解释：“他们无法让我上场，所以他们的替补选择是埃隆。
I would've been the main event and they were like, 'Well, oh, we couldn't get Lenny, we'll get...
我本来是主要事件，他们就像，‘好吧，哦，我们找不到莱尼，我们会得到......
No, but seriously, we've been a huge fan and those are just the fun times.
不，但说真的，我们一直是它的超级粉丝，那些只是有趣的时光。
We used to do the show obviously on just Clubhouse and now we do the show on YouTube, wherever you can listen to our podcast.
我们过去只在 Clubhouse 上做节目，现在我们在 YouTube 上做节目，无论你在哪里都可以收听我们的播客。
And a lot of people remember us for the Elon episode, but I will tell you this, it is often the folks who were working technology, who were not as famous, you're obviously very famous now, but who really connected with the audience.
很多人记得我们的埃隆事件，但我会告诉你，通常是那些从事技术工作的人，他们没有那么出名，你现在显然非常出名，但他们真正与观众联系在一起。
But you know what, that's why we have you back on the show now .
但你知道吗，这就是我们现在让你重返节目的原因。
Lenny: There we go.
莱尼：我们开始吧。
It all worked out.
一切顺利。
Lenny: Speaking of Elon, I was always curious, how did you actually get him on the show?
Lenny：说到 Elon，我一直很好奇，你是怎么让他上节目的？
I remember that was back before he was very vocal in the world and he was hard to learn from and hear from.
我记得那是在他在世界上大声疾呼之前，很难向他学习和倾听。
How did you actually pull that off?
你是如何做到这一点的？
Sriram Krishnan: Well, I think it's actually similar to how a lot of good things in my career have happened, which is I just had a conversation on the internet.
Sriram Krishnan：嗯，我认为这实际上类似于我职业生涯中发生的很多好事，那就是我刚刚在互联网上进行了一次对话。
I have this whole thing where I do think a lot of people trying to get ahead in their career, especially in technology, should just write cold emails, cold DMs, notes, put out content, et cetera and that leads to good things.
我确实认为很多人想要在职业生涯中取得成功，尤其是在技术领域，应该只写冷酷的电子邮件、冷酷的私信、笔记、发布内容等等，这会带来好事。
Sriram Krishnan: In Elon's case actually, what wound up happening was a few years ago, he DMed me out of the blue.
Sriram Krishnan：实际上，就 Elon 而言，几年前发生的事情是他突然给我发的私信。
At the time, I was working at Twitter and I think he saw something I'd written and wanted something from the company and I think he went through the org chart and he DMed me.
当时，我在 Twitter 工作，我想他看到了我写的东西，想从公司得到一些东西，我想他浏览了组织结构图，然后给我发了私信。
And I was like, "Well, I'd love to help you," and he sent me his phone number.
我当时想，“好吧，我很乐意帮助你，”他给我发了他的电话号码。
And I called him and I was like, "Is this and we had a conversation and we built up a relationship after that.
我打电话给他，我说：“我们进行了交谈，之后我们建立了关系。
This was when Clubhouse first came on the scene and I was like, "Well, who do we get on?" and Elon hadn't done a lot of press appearances, I think he's done a lot more since then obviously, and I texted him and he was like, "I'm game," and the rest is history.
这是俱乐部会所第一次出现的时候，我当时想，“好吧，我们该找谁呢？”埃隆并没有在媒体上露面很多，我认为从那以后他显然做了更多的事情，我给他发短信，他说，“我愿意”，剩下的就是历史了。
Lenny: Amazing.
莱尼：太棒了。
I love that Elon just DMed you.
我喜欢 Elon 刚刚给你发私信。
Sriram-
斯里拉姆-
Sriram Krishnan: The crazy part of that story was I had texted him saying, "You should come on the show," and he said, "Sure," and then he tweeted about it.
Sriram Krishnan：这个故事最疯狂的部分是我给他发短信说，“你应该来参加这个节目，”他说，“当然，”然后他发了推文。
And I will tell you that when Elon tweets about you and well, even maybe more so now, your phone just melts.
我会告诉你，当埃隆在推特上谈论你时，甚至现在可能更是如此，你的手机就会融化。
And then for the entire afternoon, I had hundred thousands of people asking me what's going to happen, the Clubhouse people-
然后整个下午，有数十万人问我会发生什么，俱乐部会所的人——
Aarthi Ramamurthy: But also on Clubhouse, if you open the Clubhouse app that day, there were so many rooms that were trying to collect questions for us and help us prepare.
Aarthi Ramamurthy：而且在 Clubhouse 上，如果你那天打开 Clubhouse 应用程序，会有很多房间试图为我们收集问题并帮助我们做好准备。
There was so much pressure just scrolling through the hallway and trying to look through, it's like, "Oh my God, is this real?
只是在走廊里滚动并试图向外看时，压力就很大，就像，“天哪，这是真的吗？
We are the people that they're talking about here.
我们就是他们在这里谈论的人。
This is crazy." I don't know if you've listened to the actual thing, but it was pretty cool because we got to ask him questions we've always wanted to ask on like, "When do we get to Mars?" it was kind of fun.
这太疯狂了。”我不知道你是否听过真实的事情，但这很酷，因为我们必须问他一些我们一直想问的问题，比如“我们什么时候到达火星？”这很有趣。
And then after that, again it was this, we got a bunch of people reaching out and being like, "You should have asked this question.
然后在那之后，又是这样，我们有一群人伸出援手，说：“你应该问这个问题。
You guys are not professional journalists." And we are like, "No, we're not.
你们不是职业记者。”我们就像，“不，我们不是。
What gave it away?" We are just random two people who are just talking to this guy, so it was really fun.
是什么把它送走了？”我们只是随机的两个人，只是和这个人说话，所以这真的很有趣。
Lenny: Yeah, I remember that.
莱尼：是的，我记得。
I remember journalists were like, "They're not actually asking him hard questions.
我记得记者们的反应是：“他们实际上并没有问他尖锐的问题。
How dare they have him on, give him a platform to share things without any criticism?"
他们怎么敢让他上台，给他一个平台来分享事情而不受到任何批评？”
Aarthi Ramamurthy: And we were like, "We are not those people that you think we are, that's just never been our job."
Aarthi Ramamurthy：我们当时想，“我们不是你认为的那样的人，那从来都不是我们的工作。”
Lenny: Yeah.
莱尼：是的。
I have so many questions that spiral from this discussion, but I want to ask one quick Clubhouse question.
这次讨论引发了我很多疑问，但我想问一个俱乐部会所的快速问题。
So Aarthi, you worked at Clubhouse for a while.
Aarthi，你在 Clubhouse 工作过一段时间。
Very tactically, I feel like they're really smart initially with their growth strategy of just getting fancy, smart people in there talking and pontificating.
从战术上讲，我觉得他们最初的增长策略非常聪明，就是让聪明、聪明的人在那里说话和武断。
They had Naval and Marc Andreessen and then eventually, you want other people.
他们有海军和马克·安德森，最后，你想要其他人。
And that was such a smart way to get people to get in there and want to get in there to listen to them, to engage with them.
这是一种非常聪明的方式，可以让人们进入那里并愿意进入那里倾听他们的声音，与他们互动。
What's your take on that as just a growth strategy to get a social network bootstrapped?
您如何看待这只是一种推动社交网络发展的战略？
And then just generally, I guess any thoughts on the journey of Clubhouse?
总的来说，我想对 Clubhouse 的旅程有什么想法吗？
It's had a big rise, it's kind of .
它的涨幅很大，有点像。
Aarthi Ramamurthy: Yeah.
阿尔蒂·拉玛莫西：是的。
I mean, all good questions here.
我的意思是，这里都是好问题。
I think growth strategy, that's a great way to acquire people right at the top of the funnel.
我认为增长战略是在漏斗顶部吸引人才的好方法。
Once you've done this a few times, you kind of see everything as a funnel and you're like, "Well, are you retaining people?
一旦你这样做了几次，你就会把一切都看作一个漏斗，然后你会想，“好吧，你留住了人吗？
Are you not?
你不是吗？
Is it top of the funnel impressions or do they stick around?" So I think having people like Marc Andreessen and people like Naval and they were not doing this out of any...
它是在漏斗印象的顶部还是会一直存在？”所以我认为像马克·安德森和海军这样的人，他们这样做并不是出于任何......
they were really, really interested.
他们真的非常非常感兴趣。
When we got invited by Marc and Marc was like, "Check out...
当我们受到马克邀请时，马克说：“看看……
this was way before a16z even invested in it, was like, "This product is amazing.
早在 a16z 投资它之前，就好像，“这个产品太棒了。
These folks are doing something really cool, this is going to be the future, it's amazing." So it gave them a platform to go speak out and live social audio just made a ton of sense.
这些人正在做一些非常酷的事情，这将是未来，太棒了。”因此，这为他们提供了一个畅所欲言的平台，而现场社交音频就变得非常有意义。
I will say, Clubhouse, I feel like they get this unfair attention and criticism.
我会说，俱乐部会所，我觉得他们受到了不公平的关注和批评。
It's a what, three-year-old startup?
这是一家什么的，成立了三年的初创公司？
Aarthi Ramamurthy: And I've done two startups.
Aarthi Ramamurthy：我已经创办了两家初创公司。
The second one I did, three years in, we still sort of were struggling and trying to figure out what we were doing.
我做的第二个，三年后，我们仍然在挣扎，试图弄清楚我们在做什么。
So I mean, I feel like founders just need some time to breathe in and figure out what to go do.
所以我的意思是，我觉得创始人只是需要一些时间来深呼吸并弄清楚该做什么。
So I'm bullish on Clubhouse, I think they'll figure it out and Paul and Rohan are great founders.
所以我看好 Clubhouse，我认为他们会解决这个问题，而且 Paul 和 Rohan 都是伟大的创始人。
They've been doing social stuff for over a decade plus and so they've got to figure it out.
他们从事社交活动已有十多年了，所以他们必须弄清楚这一点。
And I know that it's like, they get this thing on, "Oh, they were really hot during the pandemic.
我知道他们会说，“哦，他们在大流行期间真的很热。
Is this a pandemic fad versus not?" I don't know, it's a product at the end of the day and you're going to have to find product market fit and I think they'll figure it out.
这是流行病还是非流行病？”我不知道，这最终是一种产品，你必须找到适合市场的产品，我认为他们会找到答案。
Sriram Krishnan: Yeah.
斯里拉姆·克里希南：是的。
The broader question of how do social products acquire the users is super interesting.
社交产品如何获取用户这一更广泛的问题非常有趣。
One of my favorite pieces written on this is Eugene Wei's Status as a Service.
我最喜欢的关于这方面的文章之一是 Eugene Wei 的 Status as a Service。
Eugene should absolutely be on your podcast someday.
有一天尤金绝对应该出现在你的播客上。
It's a 10,000 word piece, which is amazing and highly suggest people read it.
这是一篇一万字的文章，非常精彩，强烈建议人们阅读。
But one of the key takeaways from that piece is the idea that when you have a new network, think of it as a new country, you want the high status people and high status mean they're interesting, people want to be where they are in some shape or form because they have money, they're smart, they're cool, they're good-looking, whatever it may be and you want to get them onto your network.
但这篇文章的关键要点之一是，当你拥有一个新的网络时，把它想象成一个新的国家，你想要高地位的人，高地位意味着他们很有趣，人们希望以某种形式出现在他们所在的地方，因为他们有钱，他们聪明，他们很酷，他们好看，无论是什么，你想让他们进入你的网络。
And there's exactly an interesting corollary that they're often underserved by other existing platforms.
确切地说，有一个有趣的推论：其他现有平台往往无法为它们提供足够的服务。
And because if they're already well-served, they wouldn't want to move to you.
因为如果他们已经得到了很好的服务，他们就不会想搬到你那里。
Sriram Krishnan: And Eugene doesn't talk about it, but if I look at say the history of all the three, four large social media companies, you've seen this pattern.
Sriram Krishnan：尤金没有谈论这一点，但如果我看看所有三、四家大型社交媒体公司的历史，你就会看到这种模式。
For example, they've often each had a breakout set of stars who are unique to the platform.
例如，他们通常都有一批该平台独有的突破明星。
For example, if you look at say Snapchat, you had folks like Kylie Jenner who really broke out first.
例如，如果你看看 Snapchat，就会发现像凯莉·詹纳 (Kylie Jenner) 这样的人真正首先爆发了。
If you look at Instagram, I would think The Rock, Cristiano Ronaldo, a lot of others are organic to Instagram.
如果你看看 Instagram，我会认为巨石强森、克里斯蒂亚诺·罗纳尔多以及其他很多人都与 Instagram 息息相关。
But let's say you get to TikTok.
但假设你访问了 TikTok。
One of the things you'll see is a lot of the folks from the Instagram world rarely move to TikTok and there's a couple of reasons.
你会看到的一件事是，很多 Instagram 世界的人很少转向 TikTok，原因有几个。
One, they didn't really need to because they were already popular on some of these other existing platforms, but two, TikTok actually took advantage of a different set of skillsets.
第一，他们实际上并不需要这样做，因为它们已经在其他一些现有平台上很受欢迎，但第二，TikTok 实际上利用了一组不同的技能。
People who are really good on video, people who could dance, be funny.
那些真正擅长视频的人，那些会跳舞的人，都很有趣。
And so you saw the rise of Charli D'Amelio and Addison and so many others who are different.
所以你看到了查理·达梅里奥和艾迪生以及其他许多不同的人的崛起。
Sriram Krishnan: So every single time, I think you need to go after a set of people who are high status who are also underserved.
Sriram Krishnan：所以每次，我认为你都需要去寻找一群地位高但服务水平低的人。
So coming back to Clubhouse, I think one of the interesting things is I think these celebrities are super interesting, but what is more interesting for me is all the homegrown folks.
回到俱乐部会所，我认为有趣的事情之一是我认为这些名人非常有趣，但对我来说更有趣的是所有本土人士。
I actually consider us as a part of that, we would not be here doing the show if it wasn't for Clubhouse.
我实际上认为我们是其中的一部分，如果没有 Clubhouse，我们就不会在这里做这个节目。
There are many folks who had that original launch using the platform, so I think for folks here who are thinking about social platforms, it's interesting about okay, you need interesting people from elsewhere, but you also need homegrown talent.
有很多人使用该平台进行了最初的发布，所以我认为对于正在考虑社交平台的人们来说，这很有趣，你需要来自其他地方的有趣的人，但你也需要本土人才。
And by the way, you are a perfect example of this phenomenon because you are Substack's homegrown talent and I think you bring a lot of value to Substack.
顺便说一句，你是这种现象的完美例子，因为你是 Substack 的本土人才，我认为你为 Substack 带来了很多价值。
And there are a lot of people with huge newsletters, et cetera, but I think your rise and your popularity is so tied to Substack now and that's actually a great example of all of this.
有很多人都有大量的时事通讯，等等，但我认为你的崛起和你的受欢迎程度现在与 Substack 息息相关，这实际上是所有这一切的一个很好的例子。
Lenny: Yeah.
莱尼：是的。
It reminds me, the founder of Musical.ly who turned into TikTok has a great story.
这让我想起，由Musical.ly转型为TikTok的创始人有一个伟大的故事。
I think you've heard his talk about this, how the way he thought about it is there's all these successful people on Instagram, that's Europe, and the people you can convince to come to America are not the kings of Europe, but they're the peasants that are like, "Oh, we have a new opportunity to rise and become a king or a queen." And so those are the people you pull in, the people not doing well on another platform that want to do well versus the people already killing it.
我想你已经听过他的谈论，他的想法是Instagram上有这么多成功人士，那就是欧洲，你可以说服来到美国的人不是欧洲的国王，而是那些农民，他们会说，“哦，我们有一个新的机会崛起并成为国王或女王。”因此，这些人就是你拉进来的人，那些在另一个平台上表现不佳但想要做得更好的人，而不是已经杀死它的人。
Sriram Krishnan: Lenny just called himself the king of Substack right there.
Sriram Krishnan：Lenny 刚刚称自己为 Substack 之王。
Aarthi Ramamurthy: Yes, I know.
阿蒂·拉玛莫西：是的，我知道。
You're the king, you're the king of Americas.
你是国王，你是美洲之王。
Sriram Krishnan: I'm just trying to give you clippable moments on video.
Sriram Krishnan：我只是想在视频中为您提供可剪辑的时刻。
Lenny: I did just find out that I think I have the fourth-largest Substack newsletter on all of Substack which is ridiculous-
Lenny：我刚刚发现我认为我拥有 Substack 上第四大的 Substack 时事通讯，这太荒谬了 -
Aarthi Ramamurthy: That's amazing, wow.
Aarthi Ramamurthy：太棒了，哇。
That's amazing.
太棒了。
Sriram Krishnan: Yeah.
斯里拉姆·克里希南：是的。
Number three, number two, number one, Lenny is coming after you, better watch out.
第三，第二，第一，莱尼正在追你，最好小心。
Lenny: Yeah.
莱尼：是的。
They're up there.
他们在上面。
So you mentioned the chat with Elon and how you're very tech positive and I think that's something that you two are at the forefront of, is this trend, I don't know if it's called techno-optimism or maybe there's another term for it and I'd love to hear just like why?
所以你提到了与埃隆的聊天，以及你对技术非常积极，我认为这是你们两个处于最前沿的东西，是这种趋势，我不知道它是否被称为技术乐观主义，或者也许还有另一个术语，我很想听听为什么？
Because I know that's important to you too, why that's important to you and just what is this movement of techno-optimism-
因为我知道这对你也很重要，为什么这对你很重要，以及这场技术乐观主义运动是什么——
Aarthi Ramamurthy: Let me take a small stab at it.
Aarthi Ramamurthy：让我稍微尝试一下。
Look, I think it's also very personal to our context and our upbringing.
听着，我认为这也与我们的背景和成长经历有关。
For us, Sriram and I came from a fairly middle class family in India, this city in India that most people here won't probably know.
对我们来说，斯里拉姆和我来自印度一个相当中产阶级的家庭，这座印度城市的大多数人可能都不知道。
And we grew up really liking computers but didn't have access to a computer for a longest time.
我们从小就非常喜欢电脑，但却很长时间没有接触到电脑。
In both our cases, our parents bought us our first computers after saving money for it and it was a hard thing.
在我们的两个例子中，我们的父母在攒钱后给我们买了第一台电脑，这是一件很难的事情。
And when we eventually got onto it and started learning to write code, we met each other online.
当我们最终开始学习编写代码时，我们在网上认识了。
We're dating ourselves now, but we met on Yahoo Messenger back in the day and we worked on this nerdy coding project, that's how we connected.
我们现在正在约会，但我们当时是在雅虎通上认识的，我们一起从事这个书呆子编码项目，这就是我们联系的方式。
So technology and computers have given us everything.
所以技术和计算机给了我们一切。
Aarthi Ramamurthy: Our first jobs were at Microsoft, we built developer tools and platforms.
Aarthi Ramamurthy：我们的第一份工作是在 Microsoft，我们构建了开发人员工具和平台。
If you were in our shoes, you would feel the same way too.
如果你处于我们的处境，你也会有同样的感觉。
Tech has given us so much.
科技给了我们很多。
And so for us to come here all the way from India, through multiple cities, we lived in Seattle and then here, the Bay Area, I've started tech companies, it is a bit frustrating to see the other viewpoint because you can see how much it has uplifted people, careers, lives, but also just from what we've been able to work on, what we've seen our friends work on and ship and put out there, it has dramatically moved the needle.
因此，对于我们从印度千里迢迢来到这里，穿过多个城市，我们住在西雅图，然后在这里，湾区，我创办了科技公司，看到其他观点有点令人沮丧，因为你可以看到它给人们、职业、生活带来了多大的提升，但也只是从我们已经能够做的事情，我们看到我们的朋友在那里工作、发货和发布的东西来看，它已经极大地改变了局面。
And so for us, we are the living testament of tech actually helping us and help us do better, so I don't even see the other viewpoint from like, why wouldn't you be optimistic about technology?
因此，对我们来说，我们是技术实际帮助我们并帮助我们做得更好的活生生证明，所以我什至没有看到其他观点，比如，你为什么不对技术持乐观态度？
I don't get it.
我不明白。
Sriram Krishnan: Yeah.
斯里拉姆·克里希南：是的。
I think the personal part was really core.
我认为个人部分非常核心。
I think there's generally two schools of thought.
我认为一般有两种思想流派。
One school of thought, I would broadly write up as things are getting worse, technology is making things worse and we should all do less, build less.
我会广泛地写出一种思想流派，因为事情正在变得更糟，技术正在让事情变得更糟，我们都应该少做点什么，少建点。
And then the other school of thought, which I think I subscribe to, is technology is not perfect, the impact technology is definitely uneven, but pretty much most of the good things in the world over the last 100, 200 years are responsible for it.
然后，我认为我赞同的另一种思想流派是，技术并不完美，技术的影响肯定参差不齐，但过去 100、200 年世界上大部分美好事物都应对此负责。
And we can have a whole long discussion about the evidence why and we have lots of very fancy sounding intellectual theories as to why, but at the heart of it is what Aarthi said, if it wasn't for tech, we wouldn't be here, we wouldn't be doing this.
我们可以对为什么会这样的证据进行长时间的讨论，并且我们有很多听起来很奇特的知识理论来解释为什么，但其核心是 Aarthi 所说的，如果没有技术，我们就不会在这里，我们就不会这样做。
Sriram Krishnan: I suspect a lot of folks who are listening to this wouldn't be able to listen to it, wouldn't have the opportunities they have or have the opportunities we have.
Sriram Krishnan：我怀疑很多正在听这个的人无法听到它，不会有他们拥有的机会，也不会拥有我们拥有的机会。
It is a great level up.
这是一个很大的提升。
My dad pretty much had the same job for his entire life, essentially from age 25 till the time he retired and there was really no easy path out for him.
我父亲几乎一生都在做同样的工作，基本上是从 25 岁到退休，对他来说确实没有一条轻松的出路。
And I imagine like, "Hey, if he was born 40 years later and he had a laptop and an internet connection and could get on GitHub, here are opportunities that would be just impossible, even 30, 40 years ago and that's all from technology." So I think that's at the heart of it, it's the best thing we have of getting ahead.
我想象着，“嘿，如果他出生在 40 年后，他有一台笔记本电脑和互联网连接，并且可以访问 GitHub，那么即使在 30、40 年前，这些机会也是不可能的，而这一切都来自技术。”所以我认为这是它的核心，这是我们取得进步的最好的东西。
Lenny: It's such a refreshing perspective on tech.
莱尼：这是一个令人耳目一新的技术视角。
In traditional media, all you ever hear about is all the problems that tech is causing and all the dangers and how we're all screwed.
在传统媒体中，你所听到的都是科技造成的所有问题、所有危险以及我们是如何被搞砸的。
And so it's like you almost forget that there could be really positive stories about what's happening with tech and it feels like there's a small number of people that are doing this at scale and-
所以你几乎忘记了，关于科技正在发生的事情可能有真正积极的故事，而且感觉好像有一小部分人正在大规模地做这件事，而且——
Sriram Krishnan: Oh, yeah.
斯里拉姆·克里希南：哦，是的。
I'll give you one small example.
我给你举一个小例子。
You made a joke about kings from Europe, et cetera.
你开了一个关于欧洲国王等等的玩笑。
If we just go back 100 years, the piece of hardware that a king or a royalty would use or a rich person would use would be so different from what a peasant would use, but you know what?
如果我们回到 100 年前，国王或皇室使用的硬件或富人使用的硬件将与农民使用的硬件有很大不同，但你知道吗？
I suspect the phone that you and I have is probably the same phone that...
我怀疑你和我的手机可能是同一部手机...
actually I know it's the same phone that Elon Musk uses, the richest person in the world.
事实上我知道世界上最富有的人埃隆·马斯克使用的是同一部手机。
I know a lot of folks in India who have very high end Android device, they have access to the same internet.
我知道很多印度人拥有非常高端的 Android 设备，他们可以访问相同的互联网。
You go to google.com, google.com doesn't know your net worth, it gives you the same results.
你访问 google.com，google.com 不知道你的净资产，但它给你的结果是一样的。
Chat GPT doesn't know how rich you are.
聊天 GPT 不知道你有多富有。
It may not like you, but it doesn't know how rich you are.
它可能不喜欢你，但它不知道你有多富有。
If you just think of all these constructs, they're were just impossible technology.
如果你只考虑所有这些构造，它们只是不可能的技术。
But anyway, that's a whole other conversation.
但无论如何，这完全是另一回事了。
Lenny: Yeah, I love that the richest people have the same phone as me and nothing they can do about it.
莱尼：是的，我喜欢最富有的人拥有和我一样的手机，但他们对此无能为力。
Something else you two are really good at is building a network, building community, building personal brands.
你们两个真正擅长的其他事情是建立网络、建立社区、建立个人品牌。
I know a lot of people listening are either often told, "You need to build a audience online, you build a brand, you got to build a network," and all these things.
我知道很多听的人经常被告知，“你需要在网上建立受众，你需要建立一个品牌，你必须建立一个网络，”以及所有这些事情。
So I guess I'd love to know just what advice do you give people that come to you and like, "Hey, I want to build a personal brand, I want to build the network"?
所以我想我很想知道你会给那些来找你并喜欢“嘿，我想建立个人品牌，我想建立网络”的人提供什么建议？
Just how to go about doing that, what's worked well for you two?
只是如何去做，什么对你们两个有效？
Aarthi Ramamurthy: Sriram has way more structured thoughts on this and honestly, he's way better at this than I've ever been.
Aarthi Ramamurthy：Sriram 在这方面的想法更加结构化，说实话，他在这方面比我做得更好。
He's basically slowly corrupted me and brought me to the dark side.
他基本上慢慢地腐蚀了我，并将我带向黑暗面。
But what I have come to believe and this differs from what I used to believe is especially if you're working in a big company, you are one of the many thousands of employees in there.
但我开始相信，这与我过去所相信的不同，尤其是如果你在一家大公司工作，你就是那里数千名员工中的一员。
Generally what you get told is, "Hey, just ship really good products, put your head down, go to work.
通常你会被告知，“嘿，只要交付真正好的产品，低下头，去工作。
The products will speak for themselves.
产品会自己说话。
That's just how it's going to work.
这就是它的运作方式。
Don't do this whole personal branding and all of that stuff.
不要做整个个人品牌推广之类的事情。
It's such a distraction," and that's generally what you're told.
这太让人分心了。”人们通常都是这么告诉你的。
Aarthi Ramamurthy: Most of my career I was like, "Yeah, of course that makes sense, that's kind of what you do." But I've come to realize that that is just not true and this might be a controversial opinion, but you have to get out there and build your own brand.
Aarthi Ramamurthy：在我职业生涯的大部分时间里，我都在想，“是的，这当然有道理，这就是你所做的。”但我逐渐意识到，事实并非如此，这可能是一个有争议的观点，但你必须走出去，建立自己的品牌。
You have to figure out what you stand for, what your core values are, what you believe in, what you think you want to do, what your next career trajectory is going to look like.
你必须弄清楚你的立场是什么，你的核心价值观是什么，你相信什么，你认为你想做什么，你的下一个职业轨迹会是什么样子。
All of that is just up to you.
所有这一切都取决于你。
It's not up to the company to figure it out for you, it's not up to anybody else, it's just up to you.
这不是公司帮你解决的问题，也不是别人的事，而是你自己的事。
Aarthi Ramamurthy: And I think building a personal brand is looked down upon so much that people think of it as a dirty word.
Aarthi Ramamurthy：我认为建立个人品牌被人们轻视，以至于人们认为这是一个肮脏的词。
It's like, "No, you can't do that." "Oh, look at this person who's branding themselves," kind of thing.
就像，“不，你不能那样做。” “哦，看看这个给自己打上烙印的人，”之类的东西。
But I almost see it as what distinguishes you from everybody else and that is not so much saying something that you're not good at or touting yourself more, it's really about highlighting, "I'm really good at this thing and I want to talk about this thing and I want to do videos about it or write about it or tweet about it." Whatever is your forum, you have to put yourself out there.
但我几乎认为这是你与其他人的区别，这并不是说你不擅长的事情或者更多地吹捧自己，而是强调，“我真的很擅长这件事，我想谈论这件事，我想做关于它的视频或写关于它的文章或关于它的推文。”无论您的论坛是什么，您都必须展示自己。
Sriram Krishnan: I mean this is probably one of the most important things that somebody can do and I spent...
Sriram Krishnan：我的意思是，这可能是某人可以做的最重要的事情之一，我花了......
no, we spent years slowly climbing the corporate ranks.
不，我们花了数年时间慢慢提升公司排名。
We were junior product managers, IC product managers, senior product managers, slowly climbed the ranks and ran teams, et cetera.
我们从初级产品经理、IC产品经理、高级产品经理，慢慢晋升、管理团队等等。
And I spent years just thinking that all I need to do is put my head down, do my job really well and that was it.
多年来我一直在想，我需要做的就是低下头，做好我的工作，仅此而已。
But then I looked around and I suspect a lot of listeners here probably have the same feeling that some sort of people were getting way more opportunities, some sort of people are way farther ahead even though I was mostly sure that somebody else was doing a better job and I was trying to understand why.
但后来我环顾四周，我怀疑这里的很多听众可能都有同样的感觉，即某些人获得了更多的机会，某些人遥遥领先，尽管我几乎确信其他人做得更好，并且我试图理解为什么。
And I think building a network, which I'll try and define because I think a lot of people have assumption of what it is, is at the heart of this.
我认为建立一个网络是其核心，我将尝试并定义这个网络，因为我认为很多人都知道它是什么。
So building a network is very simply having relationships with human beings.
因此，建立网络就是与人建立关系。
And let's start off by saying first of all, these have to be authentic, genuine relationships.
首先，我们首先要说的是，这些关系必须是真实的、真实的关系。
Sriram Krishnan: One thing, it drives me crazy when somebody will come and say, "I'm here to network." I'm like, "I don't know what that word means." So all you're trying to do is have authentic, genuine relationship with people and expecting nothing in return, so that's great.
Sriram Krishnan：有一件事，当有人过来说“我来这里是为了建立联系”时，我会发疯。我想，“我不知道这个词是什么意思。”所以你要做的就是与人们建立真实、真诚的关系，并且不期望任何回报，所以这很好。
And then people are like, "Oh, well that's awesome, but I'm a senior...
然后人们会说，“哦，那太棒了，但我是一名大四学生......
for example, I was a senior PM at Microsoft for a bunch of time and then kind of similar at Facebook for a bunch of time, you're like, "Well, what does it mean?
例如，我在微软担任过一段时间的高级产品经理，然后在 Facebook 担任过一段时间的类似职位，你会想，“嗯，这是什么意思？
I'm here, I'm going to my meetings, I'm doing my day, its only so many hours." I'll be like, "Well, let's start off with go and meet every single peer that you have you don't directly meet with.
我在这里，我要去参加我的会议，我正在做我的一天，只有这么多时间。”我会说，“好吧，让我们开始去见见你没有直接见过的每一个同行。
Go get coffee with them and ask them, 'Hey.' Have no agenda.
去和他们一起喝咖啡并问他们，“嘿。”没有议程。
Just ask them what's going on in their life, who are they, what their life story is and then who are a couple of interesting people that you should meet with?
只需询问他们的生活中发生了什么，他们是谁，他们的生活故事是什么，然后你应该认识哪些有趣的人？
Go talk to your manager and go talk to their peers."
去和你的经理谈谈，然后去和他们的同事谈谈。”
Sriram Krishnan: Super important, by the way, your manager, peer relations are super important.
Sriram Krishnan：超级重要，顺便说一下，你的经理、同事关系超级重要。
Go have a coffee with them and they'd be like, "Great, I'm love to meet this person." Then when I joined at Facebook, I was notorious for being the person who sent a cold email to every single Facebook leader.
去和他们一起喝咖啡，他们会说，“太好了，我很高兴认识这个人。”然后，当我加入 Facebook 时，我因向每一位 Facebook 领导者发送冷冰冰的电子邮件而臭名昭著。
And I'd be like, "Hey, I'm new here, I want to meet.
我会说，“嘿，我是新来的，我想认识一下。
Let's grab coffee," and everybody will say as everyone is a new person and always asking the same thing, which I'll be like, I show up, I'll tell them my story, I'll ask for their story.
我们去喝咖啡吧，”每个人都会说，因为每个人都是新人，总是问同样的事情，我会说，我出现，我会告诉他们我的故事，我会询问他们的故事。
I'll be like, "What are you folks focused on?
我会说，“你们在关注什么？
How can I help?" Again, no expectation of anything in return.
我能提供什么帮助吗？”同样，不求任何回报。
And then I'll be like, "Who else should I talk to?"
然后我会说，“我还应该和谁谈谈？”
Sriram Krishnan: You do this, you do two coffees a week and literally just ask me two hours a week, everyone has two hours a week, it'll start compounding over overtime and time.
Sriram Krishnan：你这样做，每周喝两杯咖啡，实际上只是要求我每周两个小时，每个人每周都有两个小时，随着加班和时间的推移，它会开始复合。
And then as the years go by, you keep in touch with the people you used to work with you, these folks will go to other places, five years, six years go by, you start in your mid-20s or late 20s and you know hundreds of people all over.
然后随着岁月的流逝，你和以前一起工作的人保持联系，这些人会去其他地方，五年、六年过去，你从二十多岁或二十多岁开始，你认识了数百人。
And the important thing about this is that it is a resource in so many different places.
重要的是它是许多不同地方的资源。
For example, one, if you ever need help, you're trying to look for a new role or you're trying to be like, "Hey, I want to hire this person, who knows something about this person?" or, "I want a new role.
例如，如果您需要帮助，您会尝试寻找新角色，或者尝试说：“嘿，我想雇用这个人，谁了解这个人？”或者，“我想要一个新角色。
Who's looking for something?" that network becomes your key resource.
谁在寻找东西？”该网络成为您的关键资源。
Sriram Krishnan: Now what I think a lot of people don't do, it's just simple things.
Sriram Krishnan：现在我认为很多人都没有做，这只是简单的事情。
Number one is often people just have a great meeting with a peer and then they will never ever follow up.
第一，人们通常只是与同事进行了一次精彩的会面，然后他们就永远不会跟进。
I'm sure a lot of us have the amazing first introduction email they never followed up, don't do that.
我确信我们很多人都收到了令人惊叹的第一封介绍电子邮件，但他们从未跟进，不要这样做。
I try and make it a point to make sure I always meet them once a year, once every six months.
我努力确保每年与他们见面一次，每六个月一次。
I'll just leave a note, "Hey, what's up?" And the other key part is expecting nothing in return.
我只会留下一张纸条，“嘿，怎么了？”另一个关键部分是不期望任何回报。
And generally people are very good at reading other people and if you go and being like, "Hey, I just want to meet you because I want a job or I'm here to network," whatever that means, they don't want to meet you.
一般来说，人们非常善于解读他人，如果你去说，“嘿，我只是想见见你，因为我想要一份工作，或者我来这里是为了建立人际网络，”无论这意味着什么，他们都不想见到你。
Just go and be very curious about who they are and try and help them.
只要去好奇他们是谁，并尝试帮助他们。
And you'll be surprised wherever you start, within a year, two years, you'll know hundreds of people who you can tap into, so I think that is super powerful.
无论你从哪里开始，你都会感到惊讶，在一年、两年内，你会认识数百个你可以接触的人，所以我认为这是超级强大的。
That's just building relationships.
这只是建立关系。
Sriram Krishnan: The other part is brand building.
Sriram Krishnan：另一部分是品牌建设。
Both Aarthi and I at different points in our career have gotten feedback in our job saying, "Oh, with Sriram and Aarthi, it's brand build too much, et cetera." I have learned that that is terrible feedback and to totally ignore that and if anybody hears anything like that, just totally ignore that.
Aarthi 和我在职业生涯的不同阶段都收到过工作反馈，“哦，Sriram 和 Aarthi 的品牌建设太多了，等等。”我知道这是很糟糕的反馈，完全忽略它，如果有人听到类似的事情，就完全忽略它。
The things that work well for me and a lot of others is putting yourself out there and that can be anything.
对我和其他很多人来说最有效的方法就是让自己展现出来，这可以是任何事情。
That can be like you make a presentation internally, you write tweets, you're prolific on GitHub, you make a YouTube video, it doesn't really matter, but put yourself out there because the internet rewards people being out there.
这可能就像你在内部做演示、写推文、在 GitHub 上多产、制作 YouTube 视频，这并不重要，但要把自己放在那里，因为互联网奖励人们在那里。
And what happens when you put yourself out there?
当你把自己放在那里时会发生什么？
It's a Bat-Signal.
这是蝙蝠信号。
It's telling people that, "Hey, I'm here, this is my body of work," and you know what the internet does?
它告诉人们，“嘿，我在这里，这是我的作品”，你知道互联网是做什么的吗？
It'll send amazing people to you.
它会给你带来很棒的人。
Sriram Krishnan: You'd be amazed how often somebody just have a random great Twitter thread with no followers and somebody super interesting will email them and that leads to amazing things happening, it encourages serendipity.
Sriram Krishnan：你会惊讶地发现，经常有人只是随机发布一条很棒的 Twitter 帖子，没有关注者，而某个超级有趣的人会给他们发电子邮件，这会导致令人惊奇的事情发生，它鼓励偶然性。
So over the years, I wish I had listened less to people who said I should not do this and listened more to the people who said I should do this more.
所以多年来，我希望我少听那些说我不应该这样做的人，多听那些说我应该多做这件事的人。
Aarthi Ramamurthy: I also think, Sriram keeps saying, "Expect nothing in return," I think the other way I see it is this is again an extension of optimism for us.
Aarthi Ramamurthy：我还认为，Sriram 一直在说，“不求任何回报”，我认为从另一个角度来看，这对我们来说也是乐观情绪的延伸。
Generally, we think people like to help each other out, that is just in their true nature.
一般来说，我们认为人们喜欢互相帮助，这是他们的本性。
It's not meant to be transactional, it's not meant to be, "If I know them, they will somehow do something for me down the road," it's not that.
这并不意味着是交易性的，也不是“如果我认识他们，他们将来会以某种方式为我做一些事情”，事实并非如此。
Just the way we are all building communities and are a part of this broader community, the way we work is we all want to help each other and help them be successful.
正如我们建设社区并成为这个更广泛社区的一部分一样，我们的工作方式也是我们都希望互相帮助并帮助他们取得成功。
And if that is in your nature, it's hard to not feel like, "Yeah, of course I want to reach out to them.
如果这是你的本性，你很难不觉得，“是的，我当然想联系他们。
I want to see what I can do to help them.
我想看看我能做些什么来帮助他们。
Maybe something good will happen, we'll collaborate on a project together," whatever.
也许会有好事发生，我们会一起合作一个项目，”无论如何。
The core tenant being don't expect stuff in return, don't do it on a transactional basis, I think is really important.
核心租户不期望回报，不要在交易的基础上这样做，我认为这非常重要。
Lenny: What this reminds me of is Naval has this tweet that proved to be so true, which is don't network, instead create amazing things, create value, do good work and then people will want to network with you.
莱尼：这让我想起了 Naval 的一条推文，事实证明它是正确的，那就是不要建立联系，而是创造令人惊叹的事物，创造价值，做好工作，然后人们就会想与你建立联系。
And that's really stuck with me and it saves you from going to network events.
这真的让我很困扰，它让你不用去参加网络活动。
Instead just go work hard, do awesome stuff and people are going to want to meet you.
相反，只要努力工作，做一些很棒的事情，人们就会想见到你。
Aarthi Ramamurthy: I mean you will not believe the number of times I've shown up to some meetup or some founder thing or something and then somebody would come up and be like, "I'm here to network, what's your name?" And I'm like, "What?
Aarthi Ramamurthy：我的意思是，你不会相信有多少次我出现在一些聚会或一些创始人的活动或其他活动上，然后有人走过来说，“我来这里是为了建立联系，你叫什么名字？”我想，“什么？
No, you can't do that.
不，你不能那样做。
Not how that works."
不是这样的。”
Sriram Krishnan: I actually say I disagree with Naval on this because often, when you're part of a large organization, it's really hard to do great work and get recognized for it.
Sriram Krishnan：实际上，我不同意 Naval 的观点，因为通常，当你是大型组织的一部分时，很难做出出色的工作并因此获得认可。
You're part of a team, which is great, but it's not the same as saying having a newsletter by yourself or having a piece of content by yourself.
您是团队的一员，这很好，但这与您自己拥有新闻通讯或自己拥有一段内容不同。
So when I was younger, I'd be like, "Great, I'm part of a large part-
所以当我年轻的时候，我会说，“太好了，我是很大一部分的一部分——
Aarthi Ramamurthy: I don't know, I mean you guys are saying the same thing, he's just saying create value and put it out there.
Aarthi Ramamurthy：我不知道，我的意思是你们都在说同样的事情，他只是说创造价值并将其放在那里。
I don't think it's-
我不认为这是-
Sriram Krishnan: Yeah, I think the putting it out there part is super interesting.
Sriram Krishnan：是的，我认为把它放在那里的部分非常有趣。
And also I would just say, don't wait to create amazing things.
我只想说，不要等待创造令人惊奇的事物。
Often just the act of putting yourself out there can just spur amazing things in itself.
通常，仅仅把自己放在那里的行为本身就能激发出令人惊奇的事情。
Lenny: Yeah.
莱尼：是的。
And I think especially early in your career, you're not going to create amazing things immediately, so there's a lot of value to reaching out and meeting people.
我认为特别是在你职业生涯的早期，你不会立即创造出令人惊奇的事情，所以接触和结识人们有很多价值。
There's a couple of directions I want to go here.
我想去这里有几个方向。
One is, so you gave this, I don't know, just mini masterclass on building a network and networking and things like that.
一是，我不知道，你上的只是关于构建网络和网络之类的迷你大师班。
I think what'll get people to rewind and listen to that again is I don't think people realize just how connected you two are.
我认为让人们倒带并再次聆听的是我认为人们没有意识到你们两个之间的联系有多么紧密。
You're at the center of so many micro communities of the most incredible people.
您是众多最不可思议的人组成的微型社区的中心。
I don't know if you talk about this, but you run all these micro communities of incredible people in, I don't know, creator land and investors and product people and all these people and so it actually has worked.
我不知道你是否谈论过这一点，但你经营着所有这些由令人难以置信的人组成的微型社区，我不知道，创造者土地、投资者、产品人员和所有这些人，所以它实际上有效。
You may be the most networked person there is and I don't know if people know that.
你可能是世界上人脉最广的人，我不知道人们是否知道这一点。
Sriram Krishnan: Oh, wow.
斯里拉姆·克里希南：哦，哇。
Is that a good thing?
这是一件好事吗？
I don't know.
我不知道。
Is that-
难道是——
Sriram Krishnan: It's a good thing.
斯里拉姆·克里希南：这是一件好事。
Okay, I like that, I'll go with that.
好吧，我喜欢这样，我就这样吧。
Aarthi Ramamurthy: I think the thing that, well at least with Sriram, outside of all of the masterclass stuff which I think he's particularly good at, I think the thing that Sriram, people don't realize about him is he's just inherently incredibly curious about people.
Aarthi Ramamurthy：我认为，至少对 Sriram 来说，除了我认为他特别擅长的所有大师级课程之外，我认为人们没有意识到 Sriram 的一件事是，他天生对人们非常好奇。
He's just really just wants to know what somebody else does, who they are, what their story is.
他只是想知道其他人在做什么，他们是谁，他们的故事是什么。
And this is not some like, "Oh, I'm going to spend 10 minutes letting them talk, I'm going to spend...
这并不是说，“哦，我要花 10 分钟让他们说话，我要花......
he often never lets the other person talk, but when he does, he's truly-
他常常从不让对方说话，但当他说话时，他真的——
Aarthi Ramamurthy: ...
阿尔蒂·拉玛莫西：……
but he is truly curious about who they are, what their story is.
但他真的很好奇他们是谁，他们的故事是什么。
By now, we've known each other for 20-ish years and this is every dinner, every event, this is just how he's wired and so you just can't fake that in building out a network.
到现在为止，我们已经认识了 20 多年了，每次晚餐、每次活动都是如此，这就是他的行事方式，所以在建立关系网时你无法假装这一点。
He builds a network by just wanting to know who these people are.
他只是想知道这些人是谁，从而建立了一个网络。
Sriram Krishnan: The woman I married, ladies and gentlemen, right there.
Sriram Krishnan：女士们先生们，我娶的那个女人就在那里。
You marry the right person, everything else becomes .
你嫁给了对的人，其他的一切就都变成了。
I haven't really talked about this before and I'll keep some of this slightly hidden, but I think the heart of it is I'm just curious about people, I'm just dumb about a lot of things.
我以前没有真正谈论过这个，我会稍微隐藏一些，但我认为它的核心是我只是对人们感到好奇，我只是对很多事情感到愚蠢。
And I don't mean it as this false modesty way, I know a lot of folks are smarter than me.
我并不是说这种虚伪的谦虚，我知道很多人都比我聪明。
Lenny obviously is so much smarter than me at writing a Substack newsletter, it's just evident, Andrew Huberman is great at...
莱尼显然在撰写 Substack 时事通讯方面比我聪明得多，很明显，安德鲁·胡伯曼 (Andrew Huberman) 很擅长……
Brian Armstrong great at building a crypto company, all these folks just evident.
布莱恩·阿姆斯特朗（Brian Armstrong）非常擅长建立一家加密货币公司，所有这些人都是显而易见的。
But what I realized is a lot of folks sometimes just want to be with other amazing peers.
但我意识到很多人有时只是想和其他出色的同龄人在一起。
And one sort of hack I built over the years, I was like, "All right, let me just bring interesting people together."
我多年来建立的一种黑客，我想，“好吧，让我把有趣的人聚集在一起。”
Sriram Krishnan: So I bring them in, let's just say various kinds of online communities, they're probably over 100 at this point.
Sriram Krishnan：所以我把它们引入进来，比如说各种在线社区，目前它们可能超过 100 个。
And I say, "Okay.
我说：“好吧。
You trust me, you trust me and I make the rules." Everyone keeps some level of confidence, everyone is a peer, they're all accomplished in their own way, no one is rude or mean or goes off the rails.
你信任我，你信任我，我制定规则。”每个人都保持一定程度的自信，每个人都是同伴，他们都以自己的方式取得成就，没有人粗鲁、刻薄或出轨。
So I'm a party host, so I'm like, "Okay listen, nobody is going to get super crazy over here," but I'm also curating.
所以我是一名派对主持人，所以我想，“好吧，听着，这里没有人会变得超级疯狂，”但我也在策划。
I'm like, "Well, I need somebody super thoughtful, I need somebody who's a little controversial, I need somebody who's funny, I need somebody who's like the celebrity...
我想，“嗯，我需要一个非常有思想的人，我需要一个有点争议的人，我需要一个有趣的人，我需要一个像名人一样的人......
I'm trying to put together, engineer the right vibe or the right atmosphere, but digitally, I'm very anti-social in person.
我试图整合、设计正确的氛围或正确的氛围，但从数字角度来看，我本人非常反社会。
And some of these just happen over time.
其中一些只是随着时间的推移而发生的。
You put together the group of people and they hang out online and over times, you have a very famous CEO becoming best friends with somebody in their early 20s who's just getting started just because they're in the same space together.
你把一群人聚集在一起，他们在网上闲逛，随着时间的推移，你会看到一位非常著名的首席执行官与一个 20 岁出头的人成为最好的朋友，而这些人刚刚开始工作，只是因为他们在一起在同一个空间。
Sriram Krishnan: So I love creating those online spaces and I think it's something anybody here listening can do.
Sriram Krishnan：所以我喜欢创建这些在线空间，我认为这是任何在这里聆听的人都可以做的事情。
Just take some of your favorite people, stick them in a WhatsApp group or a Telegram group or a Slack channel...
只需选择一些您最喜欢的人，将他们加入 WhatsApp 群组、Telegram 群组或 Slack 频道...
which is by the way, Lenny's Slack, highly, highly recommend it.
顺便说一句，Lenny's Slack，强烈推荐它。
Lenny is great at that.
莱尼在这方面很擅长。
But yours has hundreds of thousands of people and I think sometimes there's an intimacy from having smaller groups, like 5 people, 10 people like a shared space and then kick it off.
但你们的团队有数十万人，我认为有时会有一种亲密感，来自较小的团体，比如 5 人、10 人喜欢一个共享空间，然后开始。
And you'll be amazed of after a year or two, of how much intimacy and how much connection where sometimes people open up about losing their jobs or having a divorce or something really personal and intense just because of the shared trust.
一两年后，你会惊讶地发现，有时人们会因为共同的信任而敞开心扉谈论失业、离婚或一些非常个人化和强烈的事情，从而产生如此亲密的关系和如此紧密的联系。
And I think there's something very heartwarming and fulfilling about being able to facilitate some of that.
我认为能够推动其中的一些工作是非常令人温暖和满足的。
Lenny: I want to dig into that a little bit more.
莱尼：我想进一步深入探讨这一点。
You've built these incredible communities and you talked about a couple, and Aarthi, I know you also built Facebook's early community products and Clubhouse.
你已经建立了这些令人难以置信的社区，你谈到了一些社区，Aarthi，我知道你还建立了 Facebook 的早期社区产品和 Clubhouse。
Obviously if you had to pick one or two things you got to get right with a new community that you're just forming, what do you think those two things are or one or two things?
显然，如果你必须选择一两件事来适应你刚刚形成的新社区，你认为这两件事是什么或一两件事是什么？
Aarthi Ramamurthy: Find the niche, start really small and find the niche.
Aarthi Ramamurthy：找到利基市场，从小事做起，然后找到利基市场。
I think oftentimes I've seen other startup founders and I invest and advise in a lot of early stage companies.
我想我经常见到其他初创公司创始人，并对许多早期公司进行投资和提供建议。
I went through Y Combinator, so I go back to YC as much as I can and go help out folks.
我经历过 Y Combinator，所以我尽可能地回到 YC 去帮助人们。
But oftentimes I'll see people starting companies or founders coming in and being like, "I'm going to build this product that is going to cater to this community.
但我经常会看到人们创办公司或创始人进来，然后说：“我要开发这个产品来迎合这个社区。
I'm going to build this world's largest community off this kind of thing," and it almost starts at this super scaled version and then they set themselves up for failure.
我将用这种东西建立这个世界上最大的社区，”它几乎从这个超大规模的版本开始，然后他们就为失败做好了准备。
Aarthi Ramamurthy: You're almost better off doing these small, niche, non-scalable things to go find these oddball set of people who are doing this, who are really interested in this one thing and kind of scale from there and grow from there.
Aarthi Ramamurthy：你最好做这些小、利基、不可扩展的事情，然后去寻找那些正在做这件事的奇怪的人，他们对这件事真正感兴趣，从那里开始规模化并从那里成长。
And I think that's one big thing that when you're starting to build a community, don't start to build this super scaled community.
我认为这是一件大事，当你开始建立一个社区时，不要开始建立这个超大规模的社区。
Start with few people who are passionate about a particular problem and want to get together kind of thing.
从少数对某个特定问题充满热情并希望聚集在一起的人开始。
Start there.
从那里开始。
Two, I think people, and this might be a controversial thing, but I often think people don't think through monetization.
第二，我认为人们，这可能是一个有争议的事情，但我经常认为人们不会考虑货币化。
If you're a community builder early on, start thinking about, if you're truly focused on this as a business, how would you actually make money off of it?
如果您很早就是社区建设者，请开始思考，如果您真正专注于此业务，您将如何真正从中赚钱？
Aarthi Ramamurthy: Oftentimes they hit some sort of scale and be like, "Crap, now what do I do?
Aarthi Ramamurthy：他们常常会达到某种规模，然后说：“糟糕，现在我该怎么办？
And then they're try all these options, they will have some churn and then they're like, "Oh no, but I thought this was a very sticky community." I'm like, "Yes, but it's not as sticky as this particular price tag." And so you have to start thinking through, if we hit a particular velocity, what is that going to look like?
然后他们尝试所有这些选项，他们会产生一些流失，然后他们会说，“哦不，但我认为这是一个非常粘性的社区。”我想，“是的，但它不像这个特定的价格标签那么粘。”所以你必须开始思考，如果我们达到特定的速度，那会是什么样子？
What are the things that I'm going to unlock.
我要解锁哪些东西。
And think through monetization a little bit ahead of time before it comes in and becomes a crutch rather than a weapon that you can go leverage.
在货币化出现并成为你可以利用的拐杖而不是武器之前，提前考虑一下它。
Sriram Krishnan: But I want to say, Aarthi is kind of the creator of Facebook Stars and of so much of the thinking there and I can see her go super deep on this.
Sriram Krishnan：但我想说，Aarthi 是 Facebook Stars 和许多想法的创造者，我可以看到她对此非常深入。
Of course on everything she said, I have a slightly different framework.
当然，对于她所说的一切，我的框架略有不同。
First of all, I really don't like the word community because the word community, the word networking, the word platform is a little abstract and it can mean a lot of things.
首先，我真的不喜欢“社区”这个词，因为“社区”、“网络”、“平台”这个词有点抽象，但它可能意味着很多东西。
And I like to think of things like a dinner party or church or things that seem more tangible and people know, "Okay, I know exactly what that is." So when I think of a community or starting one, I think first of all, it's a party.
我喜欢想象诸如晚宴或教堂之类的事情，或者看起来更具体的事情，人们知道，“好吧，我确切地知道那是什么。”因此，当我想到一个社区或创建一个社区时，我首先想到的是一个聚会。
And you're first starting off, you're like, "All right, what is a vibe?"
你一开始就会想，“好吧，什么是氛围？”
Sriram Krishnan: For example and this is also true for every social media platform where if you can be a crazy, people are dancing on bars, having a great time, getting really drunk party or you can have a really formal dinner where everyone is seated, there is plates with name tags and there's a clinking of glasses and you have to dress up.
Sriram Krishnan：例如，对于每个社交媒体平台来说也是如此，如果你可以疯狂，人们会在酒吧跳舞，玩得很开心，喝得醉醺醺的派对，或者你可以参加一个非常正式的晚宴，每个人都坐下来，盘子上贴着名牌，玻璃杯叮当作响，你必须盛装打扮。
And they're both fine, they're both fun in their own way, but you need to tell people, as the host, which one it is.
他们都很好，都有自己的乐趣，但作为主持人，你需要告诉人们是哪一个。
And by the way, I think one of the things that Twitter didn't get right in the original days which some of the other apps did, it never told people what kind of party it was.
顺便说一句，我认为 Twitter 在最初的时候没有像其他一些应用程序那样做正确的事情之一，它从来没有告诉人们这是一个什么样的聚会。
It like, "Are we going to Michelin star restaurant where sit down or it's a sports bar after the Super Bowl and you can go crazy?" And if you don't do that, people make up their own rules.
它就像是，“我们是要去米其林星级餐厅坐下来还是超级碗结束后你可以疯狂的体育酒吧？”如果你不这样做，人们就会制定自己的规则。
That's number one.
这是第一。
Sriram Krishnan: The second part is as the host, you have to curate the original set of people and you need a mix, this is super important.
Sriram Krishnan：第二部分是作为主持人，你必须策划最初的一组人，你需要混合，这是非常重要的。
I think sometimes people do this thing where they either optimize for "interesting famous people" or they get the most talkative lot of people.
我认为有时人们会做这样的事情，他们要么针对“有趣的名人”进行优化，要么吸引最健谈的人。
And I actually read a bunch of books on hosting great dinner parties, I actually have some interesting suggestions there and it'll say like, "Well, you need a mix." For example, in any organization, let's say you're the VP that everyone knows about, but that VP doesn't have the time to maybe participate on a WhatsApp channel or a Slack channel and chit-chat all the time or show up for everything.
我实际上读了很多关于举办精彩晚宴的书籍，我实际上有一些有趣的建议，它会说，“好吧，你需要混合。”例如，在任何组织中，假设您是每个人都知道的副总裁，但该副总裁可能没有时间参与 WhatsApp 频道或 Slack 频道并一直闲聊或出席所有活动。
And then maybe you need the really boisterous young BD exec who's out and about and meeting everybody.
然后，也许您需要一位真正热闹的年轻 BD 主管，他经常出去走动并与每个人会面。
You need that person, you need somebody who's quiet and thoughtful.
你需要那个人，你需要一个安静、体贴的人。
You need to merge different kinds of energy and that's almost an alchemy and that's more art than science.
你需要融合不同种类的能量，这几乎是一种炼金术，这更像是艺术而不是科学。
You have to start there.
你必须从那里开始。
Sriram Krishnan: Third I think is as the host, you have to have a sixth sense of how is a community feeling at any given point in time?
Sriram Krishnan：第三，我认为作为主持人，你必须有第六感，了解社区在任何特定时间点的感受如何？
Are two people dominating the conversation?
谈话是否由两个人主导？
That person hasn't said anything in a while.
那个人已经很久没有说话了。
One of the things I like to when somebody joins a group or one of these places, I try and get them into a question which they will feel happy about because you know what happens the very first time you walk into a party?
当有人加入一个团体或其中一个地方时，我喜欢做的一件事是，我尝试让他们提出一个他们会感到高兴的问题，因为你知道第一次走进聚会时会发生什么？
You look around, you're like, "I don't know anybody here.
你环顾四周，你会说：“我不认识这里的任何人。
Oh gosh, okay.
哦天哪，好吧。
I know this one person and I'm going to go talk to them," and you just feel nervous.
我认识这个人，我要去和他们谈谈，”你只是感到紧张。
I'm trying to break that.
我正在努力打破这一点。
For example, if you walk in a place and you didn't know anybody, Lenny is actually very good at being social, but I'd be like, "Hey.
例如，如果你走在一个地方并且你不认识任何人，莱尼实际上非常擅长社交，但我会说，“嘿。
Lenny has one of the most popular things on Substack and he just wrote .
Lenny 在 Substack 上有最受欢迎的东西之一，他刚刚写了。
I'm just giving you an opening, you to feel comfortable and that's another part.
我只是给你一个机会，让你感觉舒服，这是另一回事。
Sriram Krishnan: The third part I love is rituals and religions do a great job of this, which is do something every month.
Sriram Krishnan：我喜欢的第三部分是仪式和宗教在这方面做得很好，那就是每个月都做一些事情。
There's a little group I hosted some of my friends and during all of COVID, we did a Zoom meeting every Tuesday evening.
我接待了一些朋友，在整个新冠疫情期间，我们每周二晚上都会举行一次 Zoom 会议。
And that was a ritual, it had nothing, it's just Zoom meeting with a bunch of friends, people can share-
那是一种仪式，什么都没有，只是与一群朋友进行 Zoom 会议，人们可以分享——
Aarthi Ramamurthy: And people would just bring their glass of wine or bring their kids in and there's no structured agenda.
Aarthi Ramamurthy：人们只是带上一杯酒或带他们的孩子进来，没有结构化的议程。
But people started looking forward to it through the pandemic and stuff and we would be like, "Oh my God, it's Tuesday.
但人们开始通过大流行和其他事情期待它，我们会说，“天哪，今天是星期二。
You know this evening, we are going to go do this thing." And it was a really great way to go build that community and I totally agree with that.
你知道今晚，我们要做这件事。”这是建立社区的一个非常好的方式，我完全同意这一点。
Sriram Krishnan: Yeah, well Lenny has done an amazing job on it on his Slack, I see it.
Sriram Krishnan：是的，Lenny 在他的 Slack 上做得非常出色，我明白了。
Sriram Krishnan: The other interesting tension and challenge is how to grow it because I think there are...
Sriram Krishnan：另一个有趣的紧张和挑战是如何发展它，因为我认为有......
Interesting point, a four person dinner, very different from an eight person dinner, very different from a 20 person thing where people hang out, very different from, once you start getting hundreds of thousands, the things you're willing to share, worrying about being judged.
有趣的一点是，四人晚餐，与八人晚餐非常不同，与人们闲逛的 20 人晚餐非常不同，与一旦你开始获得数十万的东西，你愿意分享的东西，担心被评判非常不同。
So I'm always trying to create more intimate different spaces and that's a whole other topic.
所以我总是试图创造更亲密的不同空间，这是一个完全不同的话题。
So I think if you're trying to start a community though, I would say picking the right people, setting the tone, being really part of it yourself, that's most of it.
所以我认为如果你想创建一个社区，我会说选择合适的人，设定基调，自己真正成为社区的一部分，这就是大部分。
Lenny: Amazing.
莱尼：太棒了。
There's so many little nuggets of advice there.
那里有很多小建议。
I feel like we could do a whole other episode on just community building strategy.
我觉得我们可以就社区建设策略做一整集。
Today's episode is brought to you by LMNT.
今天的节目是LMNT为您带来的。
I just recently discovered the stuff, actually from another podcast and it is such sweet, salty goodness.
我最近才发现这些东西，实际上是来自另一个播客，它是如此的甜，咸的美味。
LMNT is a tasty electrolyte drink mix with a science-backed electrolyte ratio.
LMNT 是一种美味的电解质饮料混合物，具有科学支持的电解质比例。
And unlike most electrolyte drinks, there's no sugar, coloring, artificial ingredients, gluten or any other BS.
与大多数电解质饮料不同的是，它不含糖、色素、人工成分、麸质或任何其他废话。
Getting enough electrolytes helps prevent and eliminate headaches, muscle cramps, fatigue, sleeplessness and other common symptoms of electrolyte deficiency.
摄入足够的电解质有助于预防和消除头痛、肌肉痉挛、疲劳、失眠和电解质缺乏的其他常见症状。
Lenny: LMNT is the exclusive hydration partner to Team USA Weightlifting and many other Olympic athletes, also dozens of NBA and NFL teams and players rely on LMNT to stay hydrated, along with Navy SEAL teams, FBI sniper teams and the Marines.
Lenny：LMNT 是美国举重队和许多其他奥运会运动员的独家补水合作伙伴，数十支 NBA 和 NFL 球队和球员以及海豹突击队、FBI 狙击队和海军陆战队也依靠 LMNT 来保持水分。
You can try LMNT totally risk-free.
您可以完全无风险地尝试 LMNT。
If you don't like it, you can share it with a salty friend and they'll give you your money back, no questions asked.
如果您不喜欢它，您可以与咸味的朋友分享，他们会无条件退款给您。
To give it a shot, go to drinklmnt.com/lenny and you'll get a free sample pack with any purchase, which includes one packet of every flavor.
要尝试一下，请访问 Drinklmnt.com/lenny，购买任何产品即可获得免费样品包，其中包括每种口味的一包。
My favorite is Watermelon Salt.
我最喜欢的是西瓜盐。
You won't find this offer publicly available, so you have to head to drinklmnt.com/lenny to take advantage of this offer, stay salty.
您不会发现此优惠公开可用，因此您必须前往 Drinklmnt.com/lenny 才能利用此优惠，保持咸味。
Lenny: I want to go back to a topic we touched on that I think is really interesting which is building a brand and putting content out and that kind of thing.
莱尼：我想回到我们谈到的一个我认为非常有趣的话题，那就是建立一个品牌并发布内容之类的事情。
I think a lot of times people hear that, like a first-year PM and they're like, "Yes, I'm going to start tweeting." And then it's such cringey useless stuff and nobody needs to hear from them because they haven't done anything.
我想很多时候人们听到这个消息时，就像第一年的总理一样，他们会说，“是的，我要开始发推文了。”然后这些都是令人尴尬的无用的东西，没有人需要听到他们的消息，因为他们什么也没做。
And I guess I'd be curious for your take on, at what point should people start to put things out?
我想我很好奇你的看法，人们应该在什么时候开始发布东西？
How do you know if this is cringey and nobody wants to hear this stuff like, "Great PM-ship," these very cliche things come out.
你怎么知道这是否令人尴尬，没有人愿意听到这样的东西，比如“伟大的总理船”，这些非常陈词滥调的东西出来了。
There's like hundreds of Twitter accounts, people are just tweeting these things like, "All right." How do you think about that .
大约有数百个 Twitter 帐户，人们只是发布诸如“好吧”之类的推文。你对此有何看法。
Sriram Krishnan: I actually disagree with you and I actually think everyone should...
Sriram Krishnan：我实际上不同意你的观点，我实际上认为每个人都应该......
well disclaimer, I work for firm which has invested in Twitter, but I swear that's not why I'm saying this, people have heard me say this for years-
免责声明，我为投资 Twitter 的公司工作，但我发誓这不是我这么说的原因，人们多年来一直听我这么说——
Sriram Krishnan: Yup.
斯里拉姆·克里希南：是的。
Everyone should tweet or everyone should post on YouTube or post Instagram and it doesn't matter how young you are.
每个人都应该发推文，或者每个人都应该在 YouTube 上发帖或在 Instagram 上发帖，无论你有多年轻。
Because I actually disagree with the few things, which actually is a great point which I think a lot of people feel this, one is that you need to have hit a certain bar of accomplishment or interestingness to say something, strongly disagree with that.
因为我实际上不同意几件事，这实际上是一个很好的观点，我认为很多人都感觉到这一点，其中之一是你需要达到一定的成就或兴趣才能说某件事，强烈不同意这一点。
Second, that things are cringey.
其次，事情很尴尬。
I don't think anything is cringey, I strongly disagree with that too.
我不认为有什么是令人尴尬的，我也强烈不同意这一点。
And I think these are both interesting-
我认为这些都很有趣——
Aarthi Ramamurthy: Wait, I feel like Sriram's bar is so low for-
Aarthi Ramamurthy：等等，我觉得 Sriram 的门槛太低了——
Sriram Krishnan: Dude, no, this is really important because I think what stops a lot of people is, I've had probably 100 plus conversations where somebody who's incredibly accomplished will come to me and they'll be like, "Hey, I want to get on Twitter, I want write content or I want to Substack or I want to do a podcast." I'm like, "Great." They're like, "But I don't know what to say, I look dumb, I don't want to get judged." But I'm like, "No, you're so accomplished," and it is the fear of being judged that so often stops people.
Sriram Krishnan：老兄，不，这真的很重要，因为我认为让很多人停下来的是，我已经进行了大约 100 多次对话，其中一些非常有成就的人会来找我，他们会说，“嘿，我想上 Twitter，我想写内容，或者我想要 Substack，或者我想做一个播客。”我说：“太棒了。”他们会说，“但我不知道该说什么，我看起来很蠢，我不想受到评判。”但我说，“不，你太有成就了”，而正是对被评判的恐惧常常让人们止步不前。
So whenever I hear that word cringe, I'm like, "No, no, no, that's actually fine, you're fine.
所以每当我听到“畏缩”这个词时，我都会说，“不，不，不，这实际上很好，你很好。
You'll figure it out," and here's why I say that.
你会明白的。”这就是我这么说的原因。
Sriram Krishnan: Number one is what the most important thing and even, listen, if you just remember one thing from this whole thing is just get started and do something every single day.
Sriram Krishnan：第一是最重要的事情，甚至，听着，如果你只记得整件事中的一件事，就是开始每天做一些事情。
And this sounds so basic, like Aarthi and I have is a running joke where it's like it's diet and exercise is what we say.
这听起来很基础，就像 Aarthi 和我开玩笑一样，我们所说的就是饮食和锻炼。
It's like we are talking to people about how do you get healthy and you have the 100 different things you can do or podcasts you can listen to, but most of it's like, "Well, diet and exercise." And with creating content, diet and exercise, you just write a piece of content every single day because what's going to happen is it builds muscle, it gets you familiar with the medium and you start understanding what works in that medium and what doesn't and you start building reps.
就像我们正在和人们谈论如何保持健康一样，你可以做 100 种不同的事情，或者可以听 100 种不同的播客，但大多数都是“嗯，节食和锻炼”。通过创建内容、饮食和锻炼，你只需每天写一篇内容，因为它会增强肌肉，它让你熟悉媒体，你开始了解什么在该媒体中有效，什么无效，然后你开始建立代表。
Sriram Krishnan: You know who never works out in my opinion?
Sriram Krishnan：你知道在我看来谁从来不锻炼吗？
Is somebody who'll think for weeks, build up an amazing tweetstorm, blog post, newsletter, whatever it may be and then stops because the effort is so high.
是一个会思考数周的人，建立一个令人惊叹的推特风暴、博客文章、时事通讯，无论是什么，然后因为付出的努力太大而停止。
So I'm like, "One, do something every single day." The second part of it is, I actually think you don't have to talk about what you accomplish, you only have to talk about you.
所以我想，“一，每天都做点事情。”第二部分是，我实际上认为你不必谈论你所取得的成就，你只需要谈论你自己。
And by the way, this is going to sound very froufrou, but you are the best you out there.
顺便说一句，这听起来很糟糕，但你是最棒的。
So for example-
举例来说——
Sriram Krishnan: ...
斯里拉姆·克里希南：...
let's say you are a 21-year-old PM, fresh out of school, first year...
假设您是一名 21 岁的 PM，刚从学校毕业，一年级......
by the way, we were all that.
顺便说一句，我们就是这样。
I was a 21-year-old PM at one time, Lenny would've been too, lots of others.
我曾经是一名 21 岁的总理，莱尼（Lenny）也可能是其他很多人。
First you'll see a lot of people who have been through journey and there are others like you.
首先，您会看到很多经历过旅程的人，还有其他像您一样的人。
Second is you just talk about your journey, talk about what you're doing, talk about what you're learning.
其次，你只谈论你的旅程，谈论你正在做的事情，谈论你正在学习的东西。
Because what often you're trying to do when you're creating content is to build a relationship with people.
因为当您创建内容时，您通常会尝试做的是与人们建立关系。
So when Charli D'Amelio dances on TikTok, she's not saying she's a professional dancer, she's saying, "I'm relatable, I'm just like somebody you would be friends with next door, I'm just like you." And so then people start connecting with you on that front, if you're authentic and you're doing a good job, and so everybody listening to this should be able to create content.
因此，当 Charli D'Amelio 在 TikTok 上跳舞时，她并不是说自己是一名专业舞者，而是说：“我很亲切，我就像你会成为隔壁朋友的人，我就像你一样。”因此，如果你是真诚的并且做得很好，那么人们就会开始在这方面与你联系，所以每个听这个的人都应该能够创建内容。
Aarthi Ramamurthy: Okay, so the only place where I disagree, I think this is all right, but this is a bit like, we are Asian, we have this very Asian parent thinking, there are no participation trophies, so if it is cringey, you should at least acknowledge that it is cringey.
Aarthi Ramamurthy：好吧，这是我唯一不同意的地方，我认为这没关系，但这有点像，我们是亚洲人，我们有一个非常亚洲的父母思维，没有参与奖杯，所以如果它是令人尴尬的，你至少应该承认它是令人尴尬的。
I think at the end of the day, you have to persevere, I think I give a lot more words to people who are just persevering and showing up every day, but I do think there should be a level of self-awareness for people where it's like, "Man, this is not great.
我认为归根结底，你必须坚持下去，我想我对那些坚持不懈、每天都出现的人说了很多话，但我确实认为人们应该有一定程度的自我意识，比如，“伙计，这不太好。
I'm not getting any traction.
我没有得到任何牵引力。
I need to improve on things and keep building on it," as opposed to being like, "I am the best me ever," and just keep putting out garbage, don't do that.
我需要改进并继续发展，”而不是说“我是有史以来最好的我”，然后继续扔垃圾，不要这样做。
Improve on stuff because there is such a thing as bad content-
改进东西，因为存在不良内容之类的事情 -
Sriram Krishnan: I agree with you, but I think when people mean cringey...
Sriram Krishnan：我同意你的观点，但我认为当人们的意思是“畏缩”时......
okay, I'll see this.
好的，我会看看这个。
What people think they say cringey, it's like our peer group thinks that this content is too basic-
人们认为他们所说的令人畏惧，就像我们的同行认为这个内容太基础了-
Aarthi Ramamurthy: But everybody has that, whether you say it out loud or not.
Aarthi Ramamurthy：但每个人都有这个，无论你是否大声说出来。
Sriram Krishnan: Well, I'll give you a story.
Sriram Krishnan：好吧，我给你讲一个故事。
So I spent years, I'd be like, "I'm a PM leader, I run organization, I should write smart PM things.
所以我花了很多年的时间，我会说，“我是一名 PM 领导者，我管理组织，我应该编写聪明的 PM 东西。
I should write the kinds of things that Lenny writes." For example, I'll say that, "Lenny's Post the other week from Duolingo is...
我应该写莱尼写的东西。”例如，我会说，“莱尼前一周在 Duolingo 上发表的帖子是......
I was so jealous.
我很嫉妒。
I was like, "Man, this is the kind of content...
我当时想，“伙计，这就是这样的内容......
I would be like, "It's amazing, banger post." But the problem was when you start doing that, you start censoring yourself.
我会说，“这太棒了，棒极了。”但问题是，当你开始这样做时，你就开始审查自己。
And I'll say, I've written a lot of posts over the years and I'll try and sound smart, I have a great intellectual framework in some of this work, but you know what my most popular post and tweetstorm of all time is?
我会说，这些年来我写了很多帖子，我会努力让自己听起来很聪明，我在其中一些工作中有一个很棒的知识框架，但你知道我有史以来最受欢迎的帖子和推文风暴是什么吗？
It is how to write a cold email.
这是如何写一封冷邮件。
Sriram Krishnan: And when I wrote that tweetstorm, I was like, "Man, I'm going to sound so dumb," because Lenny doesn't need to know how to write a cold email and neither does the VCs I work with, everyone knows that.
Sriram Krishnan：当我写那篇推文风暴时，我想，“伙计，我听起来太蠢了”，因为莱尼不需要知道如何写一封冷酷的电子邮件，与我合作的风险投资家也不需要知道这一点，每个人都知道这一点。
But the thing is, what is obvious to you and may seem cringey to your peers is definitely not obvious to a lot of people and they will connect to you, they will relate to you.
但问题是，对你来说显而易见、对你的同龄人来说可能令人尴尬的事情，对很多人来说绝对不那么明显，他们会与你产生联系，他们会与你产生共鸣。
When somebody says like, "Well, is it too basic?
当有人说：“嗯，这是不是太基础了？
How do I get started with my job?" I'm like, "No, there's a lot of people who this is not obvious to," and I'll just put myself out there and what's the worst thing?
我如何开始我的工作？”我想，“不，有很多人对此并不明显，”我会把自己摆在那里，最糟糕的事情是什么？
Somebody thinks you're moron?
有人认为你是白痴？
That's fine.
没关系。
You put some new piece of content out there the next day and they'll fix it or you can just ignore that.
第二天你放了一些新内容，他们会修复它，或者你可以忽略它。
Lenny: I think there's a lot of really good nuggets here.
莱尼：我认为这里有很多非常好的金块。
I think the only area maybe we disagree and we should move on, but this is .
我认为唯一可能我们不同意的领域，我们应该继续前进，但这是。
Sriram Krishnan: Listen to me, Lenny, come on.
Sriram Krishnan：听我说，莱尼，来吧。
Your podcast is too friendly otherwise, let's listen.
你的播客太友好了，否则我们听听吧。
Lenny: My feeling is I think for helping you do better work kind of content, like entertainment anyone could do no problem, you could be awesome at it, is I feel like you need to do something in your career first before you can start speaking to, "Here's things I've learned and here's what works and here's what doesn't work." I think I wouldn't spend a lot of time sharing all your wisdom before you've done a thing and been successful in some way.
莱尼：我的感觉是，我认为帮助你更好地工作的内容，比如娱乐，任何人都可以毫无问题地做，你可以做得很棒，我觉得你需要先在你的职业生涯中做一些事情，然后才能开始说话，“这是我学到的东西，这是有效的，这是无效的。”我想在你做了一件事并以某种方式取得成功之前，我不会花很多时间来分享你所有的智慧。
Sriram Krishnan: Yeah.
斯里拉姆·克里希南：是的。
I actually think you make a very interesting point, which is I think a lot of people online LARP, live action role-play, as somebody else which is like you trying to project a persona or a career point that you are not at and you know it, we know it, you probably admit you know it-
我实际上认为你提出了一个非常有趣的观点，我认为很多人在线 LARP（真人角色扮演），就像其他人一样，就像你试图展现一个你不具备的角色或职业点，你知道这一点，我们知道这一点，你可能承认你知道这一点 -
Aarthi Ramamurthy: And also for that kind of content, everyone can tell.
Aarthi Ramamurthy：对于这种内容，每个人都可以看出来。
I think it just comes off as not authentic.
我认为这只是不真实的表现。
I mean I feel like the universe figures itself out over time, but I do think there is a level of, just because Sriram thinks no content is cringey does not mean people all feel that way.
我的意思是，我觉得宇宙随着时间的推移会逐渐显现出来，但我确实认为存在一定程度的，仅仅因为 Sriram 认为没有内容是令人尴尬的，并不意味着人们都有这种感觉。
You can't just magically just wipe that out.
你不能神奇地把它消灭掉。
I feel like everyone just feels that way, whether or not you say it out loud.
我觉得每个人都有这样的感觉，无论你是否大声说出来。
I do think there is a process of iteration and acknowledging that, "Yeah, okay, this is bad, but I'm going to put this out there anyway and we'll just keep working on this," and coming back to it.
我确实认为有一个迭代的过程，并承认“是的，好吧，这很糟糕，但无论如何我都会把它放在那里，我们会继续努力”，然后再回来。
Aarthi Ramamurthy: I really appreciate people who would just do that and just keep coming back to it every day and like Rocky style, chip away at things.
Aarthi Ramamurthy：我真的很欣赏那些愿意这样做并每天坚持这样做的人，就像洛基风格一样，不断地努力。
I really have appreciation for those folks because it's hard.
我真的很感激那些人，因为这很难。
I've realized over time that everyone is deeply feeling as if they're imposters and we talked about this.
随着时间的推移，我意识到每个人都深感自己是冒名顶替者，我们讨论了这一点。
Imposter syndrome is so real, it is so gut-wrenchingly real that it's not just every one person, it's most people I think.
冒名顶替综合症如此真实，如此真实，以至于不仅仅是每个人，我认为大多数人都是如此。
So to be able to overcome that threshold and look at your amazing peers and your seniors and everybody else and then still be able to put yourself out there, I think we have to really appreciate that and help them go iterate and just get better over time.
因此，为了能够克服这个门槛，看看你出色的同事、前辈和其他人，然后仍然能够让自己脱颖而出，我认为我们必须真正感激这一点，并帮助他们不断迭代，随着时间的推移变得更好。
Sriram Krishnan: Yeah, I agree.
斯里拉姆·克里希南：是的，我同意。
One tiny story before we wrap on this topic, which is I was talking to somebody who's four or five years into their career as a PM and they'd written this post on LinkedIn which is full of cringey content, by the way.
在我们结束这个主题之前，先讲一个小故事，我正在和一个已经从事 PM 职业生涯四五年的人交谈，他们在 LinkedIn 上写了这篇文章，顺便说一句，其中充满了令人尴尬的内容。
Okay, let me say it, LinkedIn has a lot of cringey PM content-
好吧，让我说一下，LinkedIn 有很多令人尴尬的 PM 内容 -
Sriram Krishnan: ...
斯里拉姆·克里希南：...
I'm sorry LinkedIn folks.
抱歉，LinkedIn 的朋友们。
And it was one of the things about how do you set product strategy as an organization and I was like, I called them, I was like, "Dude, come on.
这是关于如何作为一个组织制定产品策略的事情之一，我当时就给他们打电话，“伙计，来吧。
You're four years into your role, nobody believes that you actually are driving this from a place of actually really knowing it.
你担任这个角色已有四年了，没有人相信你实际上是在真正了解这一点的情况下推动这一切的。
And that is fine if you're learning, but you are trying to project this person you're not." But the thing which I was talking to him, I was like, "I know you've done this amazing deep dive on this other niche topic.
如果你正在学习，那很好，但你试图展现出你不是的那个人。”但是我和他谈话时，我说，“我知道你已经在另一个利基主题上做了令人惊奇的深入研究。
You've gone out, you read all the posts, go write about that because you are an expert legitimately in something you think is niche, as opposed to a fake expert on this other thing you want to be."
你出去了，你读了所有的帖子，然后写下来，因为你是你认为利基领域的合法专家，而不是你想成为的其他领域的假专家。”
Sriram Krishnan: He went and wrote this follow-up post on something very niche and that went really popular because the truth is, there's not a lot of great content out there, especially great content from people who actually done the thing.
Sriram Krishnan：他写了一篇关于一些非常小众的后续文章，并且非常受欢迎，因为事实是，那里没有很多精彩的内容，特别是来自真正做过这件事的人的精彩内容。
You'd be surprised how niche you can be, but if you actually done the work, talk to a people, aggregated some posts, people come seek you out and you don't have to do it.
你会对自己的定位感到惊讶，但如果你真正完成了工作，与人们交谈，汇总了一些帖子，人们就会来找你，而你不必这样做。
So anyway, so lots of LARPing, lots of cringey LinkedIn content for sure.
不管怎样，肯定有很多 LARPing，很多令人尴尬的 LinkedIn 内容。
Lenny: Just to close this out, I 100% agree with the idea that people should be just trying stuff, writing, sharing stuff on Twitter, LinkedIn, just get it out of there, don't be afraid because that's how you start down this road.
Lenny：最后，我百分百同意这样的想法，即人们应该只是尝试一些东西，在 Twitter、LinkedIn 上写作、分享东西，然后把它从那里拿出来，不要害怕，因为这就是你走这条路的方式。
I was going to go in a different direction, but you mentioned imposter syndrome and I'm curious, have you two dealt with imposter syndrome and-
我本来打算走不同的方向，但你提到了冒名顶替综合症，我很好奇，你们两个处理过冒名顶替综合症吗？
Aarthi Ramamurthy: Oh, yeah.
阿蒂·拉玛莫西：哦，是的。
We have and I still, I don't know about Sriram.
我们已经知道了，但我仍然不了解 Sriram。
Sriram comes off as so much more confident and has so much gravitas that nobody ever thinks of it, but we both do, we both deeply have imposter syndrome.
斯里拉姆表现得更加自信、庄重，以至于没有人想到这一点，但我们都想到了，我们都深深地患有冒名顶替综合症。
Every single day, anything we do, we look at ourselves, we are creators, we have this show on YouTube and then we look around at everybody else who have millions of subscribers and followers and everything and we are like, "Why are we creators?
每一天，我们做的每一件事，我们都会审视自己，我们是创作者，我们在 YouTube 上播放这个节目，然后环顾四周，看看拥有数百万订阅者和追随者的所有人，我们会想，“为什么我们是创作者？
This is not a thing.
这不是一回事。
We should not be doing this stuff.
我们不应该做这些事情。
I just think people haven't been honest with us on how much we suck." It's like you have these loops in your head and then every once in a while, you'll see a comment being like, "This was amazing.
我只是认为人们没有诚实地告诉我们我们有多糟糕。”就像你脑子里有这些循环，然后每隔一段时间，你就会看到这样的评论，“这太棒了。
I just had to stop doing what I was doing to listen to this whole thing.
我只得停下手头的事情来听听这整件事。
It was so valuable for me." And you're like, "Oh, okay.
这对我来说太有价值了。”然后你会说，“哦，好吧。
We are not all the bad.
我们并不都是坏人。
That's, I think, okay."
就是这样，我想，好吧。”
Aarthi Ramamurthy: So we go through this a lot.
Aarthi Ramamurthy：我们经常经历这个问题。
For the longest time, I had really severe imposter syndrome through school, college, getting into Microsoft.
在很长一段时间里，我在学校、大学、进入微软期间都患有严重的冒名顶替综合症。
Even after I got through the Microsoft, which we were one of the youngest product managers there, I still was like, "Oh, someday they're going to figure out that this was all...
即使在我通过了微软之后，我们是那里最年轻的产品经理之一，我仍然想，“哦，有一天他们会发现这就是全部......
they'll know the real me and they'll be like, 'Oh man, we made this mistake with her.'" And it was just such a real crippling thing for me.
他们会了解真实的我，他们会说，‘哦，伙计，我们在她身上犯了这个错误。’”这对我来说是一件非常严重的事情。
Even now I feel like maybe it's not 100% true, but I can kind of see the gradients there, so very real thing.
即使现在我觉得也许这不是 100% 真实，但我可以看到那里的渐变，所以非常真实。
Sriram Krishnan: Yeah, it's so true.
Sriram Krishnan：是的，确实如此。
I have a hack or a technique of how to get over imposter syndrome.
我有一个克服冒名顶替综合症的窍门或技巧。
But I'll just say, and this is just if folks here feel it, every new job I've been in, I have always felt that I didn't deserve to be there and I mean I genuinely.
但我只想说，这只是如果这里的人们感觉到的话，我从事的每一份新工作，我一直觉得我不值得在那里，我的意思是我真的。
When I joined Microsoft, I was a young student, I was like, "I don't know anything.
当我加入微软时，我还是一名年轻的学生，我当时想，“我什么都不知道。
These folks are professional, they've been doing this job for years." When I moved to the US I said, "Look, my accent is super intense, I'm Indian, these folks have been doing this for many years, they have very different lifestyles, I don't know what I'm doing here." When I move to Silicon Valley, I got no hired by probably four or five different companies and one of them told me, "You work for Microsoft so you can't really cut it in Silicon Valley because you're from Seattle," which I'll never forget.
这些人很专业，他们从事这项工作已经很多年了。”当我搬到美国时，我说，“看，我的口音非常重，我是印度人，这些人已经这样做很多年了，他们的生活方式非常不同，我不知道我在这里做什么。”当我搬到硅谷时，我没有被可能四到五家不同的公司雇用，其中一家告诉我，“你在微软工作，所以你不能真正在硅谷工作，因为你来自硅谷西雅图”，我永远不会忘记。
Sriram Krishnan: And I look at the person from LinkedIn from time to time, I'm very typically like, "Well, I've cut it now," and I'm very petty that way.
Sriram Krishnan：我时不时地看看 LinkedIn 上的人，我通常会说，“好吧，我现在已经把它剪掉了，”而且我在这方面非常小气。
And then of course and then when I start running large organizations, several hundred people or more, I was like, "I've never done this before." I'm in a meeting, everyone is looking to me, "Do they know that I've not done this before?
当然，当我开始管理数百人或更多的大型组织时，我就想，“我以前从未这样做过。”我正在开会，每个人都看着我，“他们知道我以前没有这样做过吗？
Because I haven't done this before and can they tell?" And it's every step of the way.
因为我以前没有这样做过，他们能看出来吗？”这就是每一步。
So it just pushes every step of the way and in the beginning, it was quite crippling, but over time, you build things to help you.
所以它只是推动每一步，一开始，这非常严重，但随着时间的推移，你会构建一些东西来帮助你。
And I think for those listening, if you feel this way, the thing I've learned to do is you have to retreat to a place where you feel real mastery of.
我认为对于那些倾听的人来说，如果你有这种感觉，我学到的就是你必须撤退到一个你真正掌握的地方。
So for example, when I was at Microsoft, I was like, "Well, I don't speak the language very well, English," and I had an accent, et cetera, but I knew that I was the most online developer person out there.
例如，当我在微软时，我会说，“好吧，我英语说得不太好”，而且我有口音等等，但我知道我是那里最在线的开发人员。
Sriram Krishnan: I knew every single online community, I was very plugged into open source, so in every meeting when the topic would come to, "Hey, what is happening with Ruby on Rails?" I was like, "I know this better than everybody else," and I learned to put together a presentation.
Sriram Krishnan：我认识每一个在线社区，我非常热衷于开源，所以在每次会议上，当话题来到时，“嘿，Ruby on Rails 发生了什么？”我当时想，“我比其他人都更了解这一点”，然后我学会了整理一份演示文稿。
Because then you start with the base of something that you feel super comfortable in and you build from that.
因为这样你就可以从你感觉超级舒服的基础开始，然后以此为基础进行构建。
And what you realize when you build from that is you are like, "Oh, actually you know what?
当你以此为基础构建时，你会意识到，“哦，实际上你知道吗？
People really respect that and they react to that." And I also learned not to do other things.
人们真的很尊重这一点，他们也会对此做出反应。”而且我也学会了不做其他事情。
For example, for them for years where I would listen to people from a certain academic background or I'll be like, "I wish I could do slide decks like they could," or, "I wish I could have these intentional...
例如，对于他们来说，多年来我会听取来自特定学术背景的人的意见，或者我会说，“我希望我能像他们一样做幻灯片，”或者，“我希望我能有这些有意的......
but I was like, "That doesn't really matter.
但我当时想，“这并不重要。
You just need to come from a place where you are confident you've done the work."
你只需要来自一个你确信自己已经完成工作的地方。”
Sriram Krishnan: So if you folks are listening and you feel imposter syndrome, next time you walk into a meeting, just think about, "Okay, this is a place where I know I spend so many nights and weekends," and it can be super tiny, it can be one little button, one customer, but you've done the work, you've had multiple conversations, it is .
Sriram Krishnan：所以，如果你们在听，并且感到冒名顶替综合症，那么下次您走进一个会议时，只需想一想，“好吧，这是一个我知道我度过了很多夜晚和周末的地方”，它可以非常小，它可以是一个小按钮，一个客户，但你已经完成了工作，你已经进行了多次对话，它是。
And you start from there, you talk about that and you build out from that and you will feel comfortable.
你从那里开始，谈论它，并以此为基础，你会感到舒服。
So I've done that in pretty much every role now and I still catch myself doing-
所以我现在几乎在每个角色中都做到了这一点，而且我仍然发现自己在做-
Aarthi Ramamurthy: Yeah, I think for me, when I was a first time founder, I definitely felt that way and there was all this, at that time, which was conventional wisdom.
Aarthi Ramamurthy：是的，我认为对我来说，当我第一次创始人时，我确实有这种感觉，而且当时所有这些都是传统智慧。
Nobody we knew at that time were founders, it's not our friend circle, they all worked in medium to big companies.
当时我们认识的人都不是创始人，这不是我们的朋友圈，他们都在大中型公司工作。
My family, nobody has ever been a founder, entrepreneur, it's not a thing.
我的家人，没有人曾经是创始人、企业家，这不是一件事。
And so when I started this I was like, "Oh my God, I'm making a mistake." But then you read all these people tweeting or writing posts, being like, "If you're a founder you'll be really good at fundraising.
因此，当我开始这样做时，我想，“天哪，我犯了一个错误。”但当你读到所有这些人发推文或写帖子时，你会说：“如果你是创始人，你就会非常擅长筹款。
Best founders learn how to...
最好的创始人学习如何...
I sucked at fundraising.
我在筹款方面很糟糕。
I was so bad at it.
我实在是太不擅长了。
It was just like, "Oh, you have to be able to tell your story."
就像，“哦，你必须能够讲述你的故事。”
Aarthi Ramamurthy: I tried.
Aarthi Ramamurthy：我试过了。
I email like 250 founders, took 85 meetings and 50 plus second meetings and then got 30 checks.
我给 250 位创始人发了电子邮件，参加了 85 次会议和 50 多次第二次会议，然后收到了 30 张支票。
This was my seed round which took eight months to close or something and I was like, "Oh my God, I'm so bad at this.
这是我的种子轮，花了八个月的时间才结束，我当时想，“天哪，我在这方面太糟糕了。
I should just give up right now." And then I started building this startup and I was like, "Actually I'm really, really good at understanding customer acquisition and really trying to find creative ways to cheaply acquire customers." And I kind of started putting together playbooks on it, what I can go do there and I tried this, I tried this, then I started talking to few for our own investors and I'm like, "I don't know if your portfolio companies are finding this useful, but I tried these tactics." And they were like, "Oh my God, I'd never heard of that."
我应该现在就放弃。”然后我开始建立这家初创公司，我想，“实际上，我真的非常非常擅长理解客户获取，并真正尝试找到创造性的方法来廉价地获取客户。”我开始整理剧本，我可以在那里做什么，我尝试了这个，我尝试了这个，然后我开始与我们自己的投资者交谈，我想，“我不知道你的投资组合公司是否认为这有用，但我尝试了这些策略。”他们就像是，“天啊，我从来没有听说过这个。”
Aarthi Ramamurthy: And so I realized that that's the one place I could be really good at and I can grow my business in a really profitable way very quickly.
Aarthi Ramamurthy：所以我意识到这是我真正擅长的地方，我可以非常快速地以一种真正有利可图的方式发展我的业务。
And then investors started talking to me about other companies and all of that stuff and it became a thing and that helped me get more confidence over time.
然后投资者开始和我谈论其他公司和所有这些东西，这成了一件事，随着时间的推移，这帮助我获得了更多的信心。
It was like, who cares if I can't do these other things?
就像，谁在乎我是否不能做其他事情呢？
I can do these few things and this is really, really important to build a sustainable business and I think I can do that.
我可以做这几件事，这对于建立可持续发展的业务非常非常重要，我认为我可以做到。
And that for me kind of helped me get over it.
这对我来说有点帮助我克服了它。
It's not anyone telling me, "Don't worry, you'll be good at it," that never helped, it was just I had to do it myself to figure it out.
并不是有人告诉我，“别担心，你会擅长的”，这从来没有帮助，只是我必须自己做才能弄清楚。
Lenny: It's interesting both of your pieces of advice is find the thing you're actually good at and then just lean into that as much as possible.
莱尼：有趣的是，你的两条建议都是找到你真正擅长的事情，然后尽可能地专注于它。
That's something I learned from an executive coach I worked with once that you have strengths, you have weaknesses, you can accomplish almost all the things you want accomplish through the lens of the strengths without using those weaknesses as much and that really was pretty transformative.
这是我从一位与我共事过的高管教练那里学到的东西，你有优势，也有劣势，你可以通过优势的镜头来完成几乎所有你想要完成的事情，而不需要过多地利用这些劣势，这确实是相当具有变革性的。
Sriram Krishnan: That's actually such a profound point and I wish somebody had told me that earlier in my career because early in my career, I would get all this advice like, "Oh, Sriram is too loud and too boisterous." And the thing is, nobody I know has ever become successful by trying to fix their weaknesses, it's just impossible.
Sriram Krishnan：这实际上是一个深刻的观点，我希望有人在我职业生涯的早期告诉我这一点，因为在我职业生涯的早期，我会得到所有这些建议，比如“哦，Sriram 太大声了，太喧闹了。”事实是，据我所知，没有人通过尝试克服自己的弱点而取得成功，这是不可能的。
The only way you succeed is one, you might need to mitigate some of them, especially if they're really, really holding you back.
成功的唯一方法是，您可能需要减轻其中一些问题，尤其是当它们确实非常阻碍您时。
But you have to lean into your strengths, which is a weird thing because I think when we do performance feedback, it's feedback and so much time we are like, "Well, these are all the good things and then let's talk about the ways you know can improve."
但你必须发挥自己的优势，这是一件奇怪的事情，因为我认为当我们进行绩效反馈时，很多时候我们都会说，“好吧，这些都是好事，然后让我们谈谈你知道可以改进的方法。”
Sriram Krishnan: It's almost the flip time and I think if you're doing performance feedback, you'll be like, "Well, these are things you're really good at, let's make you even much better at that.
Sriram Krishnan：快到了翻转时间，我想如果你在做绩效反馈，你会说，“好吧，这些都是你真正擅长的事情，让我们让你在这方面做得更好。
Let's make you fly faster, run harder, close the deal, write better code." Oh yeah, and some people are mad at you for these things.
让我们让你飞得更快，跑得更努力，完成交易，编写更好的代码。”哦，是的，有些人因为这些事情而生你的气。
You should watch it and maybe fix some if it's really bad, but that's not what's going to pull you ahead.
你应该观察它，如果它真的很糟糕，也许可以修复一些，但这并不能推动你前进。
It's the superpowers that's going to really pull you ahead, so let's focus on that.
真正推动你前进的是超能力，所以让我们关注这一点。
Lenny: Yeah.
莱尼：是的。
The way I think about that is the weaknesses can't be liabilities, you can't just get on stage and melt and explode, but you don't have to be amazing.
我的想法是，弱点不能成为负债，你不能只是登上舞台并融化和爆炸，但你不必太出色。
As long as you can email really well, write documents really well, communicate in other ways if that's a strength.
只要你能很好地发送电子邮件、很好地编写文档、以其他方式进行沟通（如果这是一种优势）。
One last trick while we're on this topic, I was just reading Hunter Walk's blog and he shared a cool trick for imposter syndrome where you just have to ask yourself, "Am I so good at pretending that people don't see what's actually happening?
当我们谈论这个话题时，我刚刚读了 Hunter Walk 的博客，他分享了一个针对冒名顶替综合症的很酷的技巧，你只需要问自己：“我是否擅长假装人们看不到实际发生的事情？
Am I actually that good to being this imposter?
我真的那么适合当这个冒名顶替者吗？
Probably not, the people can tell," and it's really unlikely you're actually an imposter.
可能不是，人们可以看出来，”而且你实际上不太可能是冒名顶替者。
Sriram Krishnan: Also, by the way, the reality is and this a cliche is people are just not thinking about you.
Sriram Krishnan：另外，顺便说一句，现实是，这是一个陈词滥调，人们只是没有想到你。
Aarthi Ramamurthy: That's true.
阿蒂·拉玛莫西：确实如此。
Yeah, you're giving other people too much credit that they're focused on somebody else.
是的，你给了别人太多的信任，以至于他们把注意力集中在别人身上。
Everyone is so busy focusing on themselves and their own insecurities and fear and just living life.
每个人都忙于关注自己和自己的不安全感和恐惧，只是过着生活。
And think about ourselves, when was the last time we thought about somebody else and were like, "That person, probably an imposter"?
想想我们自己，我们最后一次想到别人并说“那个人可能是冒名顶替者”是什么时候？
We just don't have the time for it.
我们只是没有时间。
Sriram Krishnan: Yeah, I've been thinking about me this whole time.
Sriram Krishnan：是的，我一直在想我自己。
Lenny: You guys are hilarious.
莱尼：你们真搞笑。
There's something I actually along these lines I was going to ask about.
我实际上想问一些事情。
I remember, Sriram, when you were just getting out of the companies you worked at, you made this point that you were an IC and you were in these meetings where people are reviewing your work and they're making decisions and you're the person presenting.
我记得，Sriram，当你刚刚离开你工作过的公司时，你指出你是一名 IC，你参加了这些会议，人们正在审查你的工作并做出决定，而你是演示者。
And then all of a sudden, you're the person reviewing all their work and making the decisions and no one trained you to be that person where you're like, "Oh my God, I'm that person they're all looking for for all these answers?" And I'm curious just how you worked through that and what advice you'd have for people that are maybe going through that transition?
然后突然之间，你就成为了审查他们所有工作并做出决定的人，没有人训练你成为那个你会想的人，“天哪，我就是他们都在寻找所有这些答案的人吗？”我很好奇你是如何度过这个过程的，以及你对可能正在经历这种转变的人有什么建议？
Sriram Krishnan: Yeah, it's a good question.
斯里拉姆·克里希南：是的，这是一个很好的问题。
First of all, it's kind of a jarring change because you realize, "Well, I have power, but I'm also called upon to do a bunch of things," because no meeting, let's call it an exec review, let's say and you're the exec they're presenting too.
首先，这是一个令人震惊的变化，因为你意识到，“好吧，我有权力，但我也被要求做很多事情”，因为没有会议，我们称之为执行审查，假设你也是他们要介绍的执行官。
It doesn't really matter what your title is.
你的头衔是什么并不重要。
All of a sudden, you're having to do a bunch of things.
突然之间，你必须做很多事情。
You're making decisions, but you're also providing feedback, sometimes explicitly, sometimes implicitly.
你在做出决定，但你也在提供反馈，有时是明确的，有时是含蓄的。
Sriram Krishnan: You might piss off somebody by naming somebody and not naming the other person, you might piss off somebody by not inviting them to the meeting.
斯里拉姆·克里希南（Sriram Krishnan）：你可能会因为点名某人而不点名对方而激怒某人，你可能会因为不邀请他们参加会议而激怒某人。
You might have to feel like, "Well, I really want to overrule this person, but if I do, they might get mad at me." And there are so many different things which you have to keep in your head as well as like, "Is this the right path for the team, for the company," or whatever the situation is and it can be really overwhelming.
你可能会觉得，“好吧，我真的很想否决这个人，但如果我这样做，他们可能会生我的气。”你必须记住很多不同的事情，比如“这对团队、公司来说是正确的道路吗？”或者无论情况如何，这可能真的让人不知所措。
And I learned a lot of how to do great exec reviews from my time at Facebook, from Zuck and from Andrew Bosworth.
我从 Facebook 的工作经历、扎克和安德鲁·博斯沃思那里学到了很多如何做出出色的高管评价的方法。
Andrew Bosworth, Boz, has some great posts on his site, boz.com, about how to do reviews and-
Andrew Bosworth，Boz，在他的网站 boz.com 上发布了一些关于如何进行评论的精彩帖子，以及-
Lenny: I'm trying to get him on this podcast by the way.
莱尼：顺便说一句，我正试图让他加入这个播客。
Aarthi Ramamurthy: Oh, that sounds good.
Aarthi Ramamurthy：哦，听起来不错。
He's great.
他很棒。
Sriram Krishnan: He's great, he's fantastic.
斯里拉姆·克里希南：他很棒，他太棒了。
Let me know when you have him, I have some questions I want to get you to ask him.
当你找到他时请告诉我，我有一些问题想让你问他。
But Boz had a few ways of thinking.
但博兹有一些思考方式。
First of all, let's start with Zuck.
首先，让我们从扎克开始。
Thing I loved about Zuck's exec reviews was that it was clear when you walked into the room that you are talking to one of the most powerful people on the planet.
我喜欢扎克的高管评论的一点是，当你走进房间时，很明显你正在与地球上最有权势的人之一交谈。
But what he did which not a lot of other people in this position do, is he would tell you what the rules of engagement were for every meeting or .
但他所做的事情是，他会告诉你每次会议或……的参与规则是什么，而其他很多担任此职位的人却没有这样做。
He'd be like, "Look, I'm going to give you a spectrum of A, how much I care about this topic.
他会说，“听着，我会给你一个 A 的范围，我有多关心这个话题。
Everything from I don't care, I don't know why you're talking to me, do I care kind of care little?
一切都从我不在乎，我不知道你为什么跟我说话，我在乎吗？
I kind of care so I'm happy you're getting this update, do I really want you to do this?
我有点关心，所以我很高兴您收到此更新，我真的希望您这样做吗？
But you know what, if you overrule me, that's fine.
但你知道吗，如果你否决我的话，那也没关系。
All the way to I'm the founder, I'm the CEO, just do this." But he will make it clear where he stood on the spectrum.
一直到我是创始人，我是首席执行官，就这样做。”但他会明确表明自己的立场。
Sriram Krishnan: The second thing he would make clear is why he believed the things he did.
Sriram Krishnan：他要澄清的第二件事是为什么他相信他所做的事情。
For example, the very first time I pitched him on what is the Facebook Audience Network which grew into probably one of the largest ad networks on mobile, he had all these sort of ideas, he was like, "We shouldn't do an ad network because," and he had all these opinions on, "Well, mobile ads all look terrible, they are spammy, X, Y and Z." But he was really good at articulating those to you and also saying, "Well, if you can prove me wrong on these legs of my logic tree, I will let you overrule me, unless I have a strong opinion." So when you walk in a meeting, you're like, "Well, I know the framework, I know what the dance is, do you convince him?" Or maybe there's no shot to convince him and that's fine.
例如，当我第一次向他介绍什么是 Facebook Audience Network（该网络可能已发展成为移动设备上最大的广告网络之一）时，他有各种各样的想法，他说，“我们不应该建立广告网络，因为”，他的所有这些意见都是“好吧，移动广告看起来都很糟糕，它们都是垃圾邮件，X、Y 和 Z。”但他真的很擅长向你阐明这些，并且还说：“好吧，如果你能在我的逻辑树的这些腿上证明我是错的，我会让你推翻我，除非我有强烈的意见。”所以当你参加会议时，你会想，“好吧，我知道框架，我知道舞蹈是什么，你能说服他吗？”或者也许没有办法说服他，那也没关系。
He's the CEO and that's fine too.
他是首席执行官，这也很好。
Sriram Krishnan: So I really learnt that it's so important to clarify for your team the framework you're operating in with you.
Sriram Krishnan：所以我真正了解到，为您的团队阐明您正在使用的框架非常重要。
And it's also maybe a clarifying function for yourself as so how do you actually feel about this and why do you feel like that?
这也可能是你自己的一个澄清功能，那么你对此有何实际感受以及为什么会有这样的感觉？
That's number one.
这是第一。
The second part of it is inside a meeting, there's a few things I think you need to do which is clarify what kind of meeting is it.
第二部分是在会议中，我认为你需要做一些事情来澄清这是什么类型的会议。
Is it just an update?
这只是更新吗？
"Great.
“太好了。
We're just going to get an update?
我们只是要获取更新吗？
I'm going to listen to you, I'm going to applaud you for a job well done, I'm going to send you on your way." Or is it a decision in which case, what are the pros, cons, et cetera?
我会听你的，我会为你出色的工作而鼓掌，我会送你上路。”或者这是一个在这种情况下的决定，有什么优点、缺点等等？
There are some real big failure modes where one kind of meeting slides into another kind of meeting where somebody is like, "Why are we doing that?
有一些真正的重大失败模式，一种会议滑入另一种会议，有人会说：“我们为什么要这样做？
Is that a thing?"
那是一件事吗？”
Sriram Krishnan: And then somebody will start fighting on and people are like, "Oh gosh, we shouldn't have brought this topic at all." And everyone listening to this has probably been to one of those meetings.
Sriram Krishnan：然后有人会开始争论，人们会说，“天哪，我们根本不应该提起这个话题。”每个听到这个消息的人可能都参加过其中一场会议。
There's also something else which teams sometimes like to do, which is they'd be like, "Hey, we have a hard problem.
团队有时还喜欢做其他事情，他们会说，“嘿，我们有一个难题。
We don't know what to do." They're trying to kind of push the responsibility of the from them to you which may be fine, but you should be like, "Hey, are you saying that you can't make up your mind and you want me to make up your mind for you?" You want to be very explicit because often I've seen this when there are hard decisions, teams are like, "The exec feels strongly, we don't want to know what to do," and they kind of want to push the accountability to you and here, we watch out for that a lot.
我们不知道该怎么做。”他们试图将他们的责任推给你，这可能没问题，但你应该这样说，“嘿，你是说你无法下定决心，你想让我为你做出决定吗？”你想要非常明确，因为我经常看到这种情况，当有艰难的决定时，团队会说，“执行官强烈地感觉到，我们不想知道该怎么做，”他们有点想推动问责制对于您和这里，我们非常关注这一点。
Sriram Krishnan: There are a lot of hygiene things we think are very important.
Sriram Krishnan：我们认为有很多卫生问题非常重要。
For example, send out a pre-read before, make sure it's the right people in the room, not everybody, but not missing out key people.
例如，之前发出预读，确保房间里有合适的人，而不是所有人，但不要错过关键人物。
Make sure you're paying complete attention, make sure everyone gets a chance to talk which by the way, I was really bad at.
确保你全神贯注，确保每个人都有机会发言，顺便说一句，我真的很不擅长。
And those things go a really long way.
这些事情确实有很长的路要走。
Oh, and one final thing, have a regular rhythm to those, so you're doing this every month, et cetera.
哦，最后一件事，要有规律的节奏，所以你每个月都要这样做，等等。
What I hate, I stole this line from Gokul Rajaram, is the phrase, "Hero meetings." All of us have been this which is there's a big thing, there's a big review, it's probably a go/no-go, maybe it's career limiting, maybe it'll get our team funded and everyone is stressed out.
我讨厌的是，我从 Gokul Rajaram 那里偷来了这句话，那就是“英雄会议”。我们所有人都经历过这样的情况：有一件大事，有一个大审查，可能是一个可行/不可行的问题，也许这是职业生涯的限制，也许它会给我们的团队提供资金，但每个人都压力重重。
You spent two weeks working on a deck and the first 20 minutes of conversation goes totally sideways because the exec thought of something.
你花了两周时间制作一个套牌，但前 20 分钟的谈话完全偏离了方向，因为执行官想到了一些事情。
Every one of us has been one of those.
我们每个人都曾经是其中之一。
Those are bad.
那些都不好。
Sriram Krishnan: The way to fix that is to have a regular check in, so you have meeting every single week and becomes like you're not spending weeks, it a muscle, it's a rhythm of what you do and those are reason.
Sriram Krishnan：解决这个问题的方法是定期检查，这样你每周都会开会，就像你没有花几周时间一样，它是一种肌肉，它是你所做事情的节奏，这些就是原因。
Sorry, I went on a bit of a speech there.
抱歉，我在那里发表了一些演讲。
Lenny: What I was thinking about is you two have worked at basically all the big consumer companies and coming back to imposter syndrome briefly, what's the worst product you've built or the biggest failure you've each built and what did you learn?
莱尼：我在想的是，你们两个基本上都在所有大型消费公司工作过，然后简单地回到冒名顶替综合症，你们制造过的最糟糕的产品是什么，或者你们各自制造过的最大的失败是什么，你们学到了什么？
Aarthi Ramamurthy: Oh, man.
阿蒂·拉玛莫西：哦，伙计。
At a startup, I tried all kinds of things.
在初创公司时，我尝试了各种各样的事情。
We kind of grasp at straws and build whatever.
我们抓住救命稻草，建造任何东西。
And also I think I fell victim to, a lot of startups do this where they'll see some theme that has become a meme with investors and they'll be like, "I'm going to go build that company.
而且我认为我成为了受害者，很多初创公司都这样做，他们会看到一些主题已成为投资者的模因，他们会说，“我要建立那家公司。
I'm just going to take that technology, adopt it." You're kind of start of seeing that with AI now where it's like everything is now an AI company.
我只是要采用这项技术，采用它。”你现在开始在人工智能中看到这一点，就像现在一切都是人工智能公司一样。
Of course everyone has incorporated AI part of it is you get it, you kind of want to be in the game and be cool, but if it doesn't really fit with your product hypothesis and thesis and what your customers are asking for, don't fall for that fad.
当然，每个人都融入了人工智能的一部分，你明白了，你有点想参与其中并变得很酷，但如果它并不真正符合你的产品假设和论文以及你的客户的要求，请不要沉迷于这种时尚。
Aarthi Ramamurthy: And I did stuff where I totally fell for the fad.
Aarthi Ramamurthy：我做了一些我完全迷恋时尚的事情。
I think I had a consumer electronics e-commerce, like a machine learning model where we rent and then recommend the right things to go buy.
我想我有一个消费电子电子商务，就像机器学习模型一样，我们租用然后推荐合适的东西去购买。
But then we were like, "Oh, Uber is doing this whole UberX thing where it was people having their cars and they could do this thing." And at that time, I think this whole shared ownership of stuff became such a big thing and I was like, "Oh, I'm going to do that exact thing where it's like it's less-
但后来我们就想，“哦，Uber 正在做 UberX 的事情，人们拥有自己的汽车，他们可以做这件事。”那时，我认为整个东西的共享所有权变得如此重要，我当时想，“哦，我要做那件事，就像它不那么......
Aarthi Ramamurthy: At that time, we were partnering with Best Buy and we were like, "Well, we should do this other side product," which is people's own stuff that they could put up on the site.
Aarthi Ramamurthy：当时，我们与百思买合作，我们想，“好吧，我们应该做另一个副产品”，这是人们可以在网站上发布的自己的东西。
Total disaster because there is a lot totally different company logistics, everything.
彻底的灾难，因为有很多完全不同的公司物流，一切。
You could build it out as a different business, but we had a small team which was heavily focused on this business, was already doing pretty well and then we had to fork all of that effort to go build this other thing which required different skillset, different fulfillment technology and all of that.
你可以把它建立成一个不同的业务，但我们有一个小团队，主要专注于这个业务，已经做得很好了，然后我们不得不付出所有的努力去建立另一个需要不同技能、不同履行技术等等的东西。
And so we were like, "Okay, disaster." So we pull the plug on it many months in, but we should have done it a lot sooner.
所以我们就想，“好吧，灾难。”所以我们在几个月后就终止了它，但我们应该早点这么做。
Lenny: What you learn from that experience other than pulling the plug sooner?
莱尼：除了早点停止插头之外，你从这次经历中学到了什么？
Aarthi Ramamurthy: Yeah, don't fall for fads.
Aarthi Ramamurthy：是的，不要迷恋时尚。
It's do the thing that your customers are asking for and are willing to pay for.
它做的是您的客户要求并愿意付费的事情。
Or not even what your customers are asking for, but if you have something that is working, don't get distracted.
或者甚至不是您的客户所要求的，但如果您有一些有效的东西，请不要分心。
It's very easy to be like, "I'm going to build this five other things and it's all going to accrue value." And I literally talked to another founder last week where they're like, "But I'm building this consumer thing, but I'm also going to do this SDK so I can go partner with these other companies and do this B2B thing." And I'm like, "But you are four people.
人们很容易会说，“我将打造另外五件东西，它们都会产生价值。”上周我确实和另一位创始人交谈过，他们说，“但我正在构建这个消费者产品，但我也会做这个 SDK，这样我就可以与其他公司合作，做这个 B2B 的事情。”我说：“但是你们是四个人。
Why are you doing that?
你为什么要这么做？
That's crazy." "But imagine catering to 10X the market." I'm like, "Well, but you're going from a consumer payments thing to something like Stripe and that's a very different business, so do you want to go do that and go have that trade-off conversation?" So that was one big learning.
这太疯狂了。” “但想象一下迎合 10 倍市场的需求。”我想，“好吧，但是你要从消费者支付业务转向 Stripe 这样的业务，这是一个非常不同的业务，所以你想这样做并进行权衡对话吗？”所以这是一项重要的学习。
At Netflix, we tried this out, we knew it was an experiment.
在 Netflix，我们尝试了这一点，我们知道这是一个实验。
This was before Netflix was cool like 10, 11 years ago, where .
那是在 10、11 年前 Netflix 还很酷之前。
Aarthi Ramamurthy: Yeah.
阿尔蒂·拉玛莫西：是的。
So my job was to build the streaming player software that goes-
所以我的工作是构建流媒体播放器软件，它可以-
Aarthi Ramamurthy: Yeah.
阿尔蒂·拉玛莫西：是的。
My job was to go partner with Samsung and Sony and Panasonic and build a software, the SDK that goes into TVs and set-top boxes and Blu-ray players.
我的工作是与三星、索尼和松下合作，构建一款软件，即适用于电视、机顶盒和蓝光播放器的 SDK。
This is before international, Netflix and original content like House of Cards and all of that, but one of the experiments we tried back then was Netflix 3D.
这是在国际、Netflix 和《纸牌屋》等原创内容出现之前，但我们当时尝试的实验之一是 Netflix 3D。
Total disaster .
彻底的灾难。
Lenny: Like on 3D TVs?
莱尼：就像 3D 电视一样？
That was another fad issue.
那是另一个时尚问题。
Oh, no.
哦，不。
Aarthi Ramamurthy: Exactly, yeah.
Aarthi Ramamurthy：没错，是的。
But we had a lot of OEMs who were like, "3D is going to be really big and you have to go invest in that." So I spent months trying to do this left eye, right eye codec and trying to make this whole thing work with these odd glasses, sitting in your living room trying to do 3D content, which is really hard.
但我们有很多 OEM 厂商都表示，“3D 将会非常强大，你必须对此进行投资。”所以我花了几个月的时间尝试做这个左眼、右眼编解码器，并尝试让整个事情与这些奇怪的眼镜一起工作，坐在客厅里尝试做 3D 内容，这真的很难。
I think we tried seven movie titles over, imported it over to 3D and they're like, "I don't think this is such a great experience," and we ended up pulling the plug on it.
我想我们尝试了七部电影，将其导入 3D，他们会说，“我不认为这是一次很棒的体验”，最后我们终止了它。
We knew it was an experiment going in, we knew there was a good exit criteria, but it was kind of a failure.
我们知道这是一个正在进行的实验，我们知道有一个很好的退出标准，但它有点失败。
Lenny: Sriram, I bet you're going to have a really good one?
莱尼：斯里拉姆，我敢打赌你一定会玩得很开心？
Sriram Krishnan: All my products were huge successes, so I have nothing.
Sriram Krishnan：我所有的产品都取得了巨大的成功，所以我什么都没有。
Lenny: Okay, other way it's going to go.
莱尼：好吧，换个方式吧。
Sriram Krishnan: Yeah, what are you talking about?
斯里拉姆·克里希南：是的，你在说什么？
No, I'll say part of the very first thing I worked on and it's complicated because I love the team and I think we did some great work, was we work on something called Visual Studio for Devices.
不，我要说的是我所做的第一件事的一部分，它很复杂，因为我喜欢这个团队，我认为我们做了一些伟大的工作，我们正在开发名为 Visual Studio for Devices 的东西。
And the idea was-
这个想法是——
Lenny: What was it?
莱尼：那是什么？
Wishlist for what?
愿望清单有什么用？
Sriram Krishnan: Oh, sorry.
斯里拉姆·克里希南：哦，抱歉。
Visual Studio for Devices.
适用于设备的 Visual Studio。
This was in 2005-
这是2005年的事——
Lenny: Oh, like coding on your phone?
莱尼：哦，喜欢在手机上编码吗？
Sriram Krishnan: Well, coding for your phone.
Sriram Krishnan：好吧，为你的手机编码。
And the idea was this was before iPhone it, this was the era of Windows Mobile Pocket PCs and Windows Mobile smartphones, so-
这个想法是在 iPhone 出现之前，这是 Windows Mobile 掌上电脑和 Windows Mobile 智能手机的时代，所以——
Aarthi Ramamurthy: Man, the kids listening to this like, "What's he talking about?
Aarthi Ramamurthy：伙计，孩子们听着就像是，“他在说什么？
What was before iPhone?"
iPhone之前是什么？”
Sriram Krishnan: Yeah.
斯里拉姆·克里希南：是的。
And this was 2005/2006, so right before the iPhone came out, the two years and we were fresh out of school, both of us worked on this.
那是 2005/2006 年，就在 iPhone 面世之前，我们刚从学校毕业的那两年，我们俩都在做这件事。
And there was basically an ID, Visual Studio, and we had an extension where you could write code on a slimmed down version of the .NET Framework and you would run apps on these small phones and these small Pocket PCs.
基本上有一个 ID，即 Visual Studio，并且我们有一个扩展，您可以在 .NET Framework 的精简版本上编写代码，并且可以在这些小型手机和小型掌上电脑上运行应用程序。
And the team was fantastic, we're all still friends and without that, we wouldn't have our jobs or careers, so that's not the point.
这个团队非常棒，我们仍然是朋友，没有这个，我们就不会有我们的工作或职业生涯，所以这不是重点。
The point is we all knew these phones were terrible and slow and awful, but what we were told all the time was, "Listen, nobody can change this because the carriers control this market.
关键是我们都知道这些手机很糟糕、很慢、很糟糕，但我们一直被告知的是，“听着，没有人可以改变这一点，因为运营商控制着这个市场。
They determined what software goes on a phone, goes on a device, so this entire ecosystem is all about competing with Blackberry."
他们决定了手机上、设备上运行什么软件，所以整个生态系统都是为了与黑莓竞争。”
Sriram Krishnan: In fact, the codename for Windows Mobile 5.0 was Crossbow and kind of a little secret which I think is kind of public now, Crossbow was a weed killer, it killed blackberries.
Sriram Krishnan：事实上，Windows Mobile 5.0 的代号是 Crossbow，这是一个小秘密，我认为现在已经公开了，Crossbow 是一种除草剂，它杀死了黑莓。
And so the whole idea was how do you kind go after the enterprise market Blackberry and work with the carriers?
所以整个想法是你如何进军黑莓企业市场并与运营商合作？
And then in 2007, Steve Jobs comes out and says, "I have three launches for you, actually it's one thing." I remember texting my manager, I was like, "You have to see this keynote," because it was so obvious that this thing was going to change everybody.
然后在 2007 年，史蒂夫·乔布斯出来说：“我为你准备了三款产品，实际上这是一回事。”我记得给我的经理发短信，我说，“你必须看看这个主题演讲，”因为很明显，这件事将改变每个人。
And everyone in Microsoft was like, "No, it's the carriers who have all the control.
微软的每个人都说：“不，运营商拥有所有控制权。
They will never let these devices .
他们永远不会让这些设备。
But actually, it turns out that's not true.
但实际上，事实证明事实并非如此。
Sriram Krishnan: I learned two lessons from that.
Sriram Krishnan：我从中吸取了两个教训。
One is the market is bigger than all of you.
一是市场比你们所有人都大。
You can work with the amazing team, you can work with the A plus team, A plus company, but if the market shifts, you can't overcome a bad market or a bad space.
你可以与出色的团队合作，你可以与A+团队、A+公司合作，但如果市场发生变化，你无法克服糟糕的市场或糟糕的空间。
The second part is at the heart of it, if you feel some product is bad and if you feel like this new thing, it's just better to use and you can just feel it instinctly, you have to follow the instinct.
第二部分是它的核心，如果你觉得某个产品不好，如果你喜欢这个新东西，用它更好，你可以本能地感觉到它，你必须跟随本能。
Because I remember being like, "Yeah, the iPhone is cool, it feels so much better, but okay, maybe they're right, maybe it is the-
因为我记得当时的感觉是，“是的，iPhone 很酷，感觉好多了，但是好吧，也许他们是对的，也许它是——
Aarthi Ramamurthy: All these people are so much more senior than us, clearly they've put so much more thought into this, clearly what do I know kind of thing.
Aarthi Ramamurthy：所有这些人都比我们高级得多，显然他们对此投入了更多的思考，显然我知道些什么。
And you realize that now, I think over, what, we've done product for 15, 16 years now, and we look at it and go, "We now have these patterns to go match against." We know when something is better, when something is working, when something feels like it's intuitive, you follow that intuition now then and not try and fight it and be like, "But here are all these things where this is not going to get there," kind of thing.
现在你意识到，我想了一下，我们已经做了 15、16 年的产品了，我们看着它，然后说，“我们现在有这些模式可以匹配。”我们知道，当某件事变得更好时，当某件事正在发挥作用时，当某件事感觉很直观时，你就会遵循直觉，而不是试图与之抗争，然后说，“但这里有所有这些事情，这是不会实现的，”之类的事情。
It just doesn't work that way, the market ultimately wins.
但事实并非如此，市场最终获胜。
Sriram Krishnan: And I think when you're younger, you should really trust your instincts.
Sriram Krishnan：我认为当你年轻时，你应该真正相信自己的直觉。
And instincts can mean, "I just hear people talking about this other thing a lot," or, "I hear that other company's name come up a lot," or, "I tried this thing and...
直觉可能意味着，“我只是听到人们经常谈论其他事情”，或者，“我听到其他公司的名字经常出现”，或者，“我尝试过这个事情......
And you may not have the framework to articulate it and you may not trust your instincts, but there's something there and you should learn to listen to that voice.
你可能没有框架来表达它，你可能不相信自己的直觉，但那里有一些东西，你应该学会倾听那个声音。
You're like, "Why is that?
你会说：“这是为什么？
Why are we talking about it?
我们为什么要谈论它？
Maybe they're doing better marketing, maybe their CEO is better on Twitter or they have Lenny Rachitsky as an angel investor or they advertise on your podcast," there we go.
也许他们的营销做得更好，也许他们的首席执行官在 Twitter 上做得更好，或者他们有 Lenny Rachitsky 作为天使投资人，或者他们在你的播客上做广告，”我们开始吧。
I tried to get a plug in there, Lenny.
我试着插上插头，莱尼。
But you have to listen to your instinct because there's usually something there to follow.
但你必须听从你的直觉，因为通常会有一些东西可以遵循。
Lenny: I only have two more questions, one is you mentioned framework.
Lenny：我只有两个问题，一个是你提到的框架。
I know you have strong opinions on a very specific framework, Jobs-to-be-Done and I know you're not a fan.
我知道您对一个非常具体的框架“待完成的工作”有强烈的意见，而且我知道您不是一个粉丝。
What do you want to share about why you don't like Jobs-to-be-Done as a framework?
关于您不喜欢将“待完成的工作”作为框架的原因，您想分享什么？
Sriram Krishnan: All right, I knew you were going to ask me this and I was thinking how do I be kind of balanced in-
Sriram Krishnan：好吧，我知道你会问我这个问题，我在想我该如何保持平衡——
Sriram Krishnan: No, balanced and give measured answer and say, "Well, every framework has good and bad ways and there are good things and bad things," and I could probably given one of those answers.
Sriram Krishnan：不，平衡并给出慎重的答案，然后说：“嗯，每个框架都有好的和坏的方法，有好的东西也有坏的东西，”我可能会给出其中一个答案。
No, I actually think the more fun thing to do is I'm going to say I hate Jobs-to-be-Done, I think it's a terrible framework, I think no successful company has ever been built on top of JTBD and if you pick JTBD, you're probably doomed and here's why.
不，我实际上认为更有趣的事情是我会说我讨厌 Jobs-to-be-Done，我认为这是一个糟糕的框架，我认为没有任何成功的公司是建立在 JTBD 之上的，如果你选择 JTBD，你可能注定要失败，这就是原因。
Let's go back to the canonical example.
让我们回到典型的例子。
And there's nothing Clayton Christensen who was a legend, amazing, the milkshake, what is the idea of being the milkshake?
克莱顿·克里斯滕森（Clayton Christensen）是一个传奇人物，令人惊叹，奶昔，奶昔是什么意思？
You are a person, you go into a commute and you're like, "Hey, I'm going to get this milkshake because it's the exact right quantity and save me on my commute." But they changed it up and all of a sudden, boom, it was not serving the job and look into the thing that actually it is serving the customer for.
你是一个人，当你去上下班的时候，你会想，“嘿，我要去买这杯奶昔，因为它的数量正好，可以节省我的通勤时间。”但他们改变了它，突然之间，繁荣，它没有服务于工作，并调查它实际上为客户服务的事情。
Sriram Krishnan: I'll tell you that's not how actual real companies work because in real companies there are so many different parameters.
Sriram Krishnan：我会告诉你，这并不是真实公司的运作方式，因为在真实公司中，有很多不同的参数。
For example, maybe it is really, really hard to go build that milkshake.
例如，也许制作奶昔真的非常非常困难。
Maybe there's another person who opens up across the street who builds a better milkshake than you do.
也许街对面有另一个人可以调制出比你更好的奶昔。
Maybe the cup configuration in the car changes, maybe the supply chain for milkshake changes.
也许汽车中的杯子配置发生了变化，也许奶昔的供应链发生了变化。
But in my world, let me make this more concrete, when you work in social media, there are often so many other agents in the system where you can't focus on one person's equation.
但在我的世界里，让我更具体地说，当你在社交媒体工作时，系统中经常有很多其他代理，你无法专注于一个人的方程式。
I'll give you an example.
我给你举个例子。
When you sign up for Instagram right now, when you sign up for Facebook for many, many years, Facebook knew that it needed to get you to 10 friends in 14 days.
当你现在注册 Instagram 时，当你注册 Facebook 很多很多年时，Facebook 知道它需要在 14 天内让你结识 10 个朋友。
Sriram Krishnan: If you got your 10 friends in 14 days, you were probably going to use Facebook.
Sriram Krishnan：如果你在 14 天内有了 10 个朋友，你可能会使用 Facebook。
So it'd be like, "Well, we're going to throw every tool we have at our disposal to get you to 10 friends and 14 days." So if you signed up for Facebook for many, many years, you'll get this little thing called People You May Know.
所以就像是，“好吧，我们将使用我们可以使用的所有工具，让你在 14 天里结识 10 个朋友。”因此，如果您注册 Facebook 很多很多年，您就会得到一个名为“您可能认识的人”的小东西。
Then you'll have this person who just signed up for Facebook, you go, "Why I'm seeing this person?" It's not because you need a friend, because they need a friend.
然后你会看到这个刚刚注册了 Facebook 的人，你会问：“为什么我会看到这个人？”不是因为你需要朋友，而是因为他们需要朋友。
So what Facebook did was it made your experience slightly worse to make that person's experience slightly better.
所以 Facebook 所做的就是让你的体验稍微变差，而让那个人的体验稍微好一点。
This was performing no job for you, it was trying to perform a job for them.
这不是为你做任何工作，而是试图为他们做某事。
Was the right trade-off or not?
权衡是否正确？
I don't know.
我不知道。
We had this problem at Twitter.
我们在 Twitter 遇到了这个问题。
The single best product launched for the last five years at Twitter was the introduction of the algorithmic ranking and-
Twitter 过去五年推出的最佳产品是算法排名的引入，以及——
Sriram Krishnan: ...
斯里拉姆·克里希南：...
and it saved the company and power users hated it.
它拯救了公司，但高级用户却讨厌它。
They're like, "I know how to control my timeline, I know who to follow," et cetera, et cetera.
他们就像，“我知道如何控制我的时间线，我知道要跟随谁，”等等。
It turns out though, this is not built for power users.
但事实证明，这并不是为高级用户构建的。
It was really built for a regular person when they sign up for Twitter to be able to give them a great experience because we knew the power users, they already have.
它确实是为普通人注册 Twitter 而构建的，能够为他们提供良好的体验，因为我们了解他们已经拥有的高级用户。
And by the way, TikTok really great example of that.
顺便说一句，TikTok 确实是一个很好的例子。
So how do you make the trade-off?
那么如何进行权衡呢？
Do you pick power users or do you pick a regular person?
您选择高级用户还是普通用户？
What is the trade-off between them?
它们之间的权衡是什么？
Jobs-to-be-Done does not tell you that.
《待完成的工作》并没有告诉你这一点。
Sriram Krishnan: Let me tell you this.
斯里拉姆·克里希南：让我告诉你这一点。
If you go order a package from Amazon right now, five years ago or three years ago, you would've gotten an email, it'll tell you what is that package, what is in it and when it's showing up doorstep.
如果您现在、五年前或三年前从亚马逊订购包裹，您会收到一封电子邮件，它会告诉您该包裹是什么，里面有什么以及它何时出现在门口。
Last couple of years, it doesn't, why?
前几年没有，为什么呢？
Because Amazon doesn't want Google to have that data inside Gmail system.
因为亚马逊不希望谷歌在 Gmail 系统中拥有这些数据。
So it is, for very, very valid competitive reasons, made your experience worse because that's the right thing do for a company.
因此，出于非常非常有效的竞争原因，这会让您的体验变得更糟，因为这对公司来说是正确的做法。
So real life and real product is all about these trade-offs and whenever I've seen people trot out JTBD, it's a tell that they actually haven't dealt with a trade-off, where you have to make one person's life slightly worse in one situation for some other interesting dynamic.
所以现实生活和真正的产品都是关于这些权衡的，每当我看到人们推出 JTBD 时，这都表明他们实际上没有处理过权衡，在这种情况下，你必须在一种情况下让一个人的生活稍微更糟，以获得其他一些有趣的动态。
Okay, I'll stop with my mini speech .
好吧，我的简短演讲到此结束。
Lenny: This is my favorite part of the podcast so far.
莱尼：这是迄今为止我最喜欢的播客部分。
I'm hoping people listen to the end here because this is-
我希望人们能听到这里的结尾，因为这是——
Aarthi Ramamurthy: Yeah, I think JTPD, the problem with that is it's just too idealistic.
Aarthi Ramamurthy：是的，我认为 JTPD 的问题是它太理想主义了。
And most frameworks are, but this one just takes it up a notch where it's like it's almost meant for people who are so naive about product building and especially product building at scale.
大多数框架都是如此，但这个框架只是将其提升了一个档次，它几乎适合那些对产品构建，尤其是大规模产品构建如此天真的人。
I think it might work for the V1 or just a hypothesis that you're trying to go test out, where it's like, "What is the core value that we are trying to serve for this user," kind of thing.
我认为它可能适用于 V1，或者只是您想要测试的假设，就像“我们试图为该用户提供的核心价值是什么”之类的事情。
But really V2, V3, it kind of falls apart because you have these super hard trade-offs that you have to make and every company goes through that.
但实际上，V2，V3，它有点崩溃，因为你必须做出这些超级艰难的权衡，而每个公司都会经历这些。
So it's almost a little too idealistic in its thinking.
所以它的想法有点过于理想化了。
I think that's the biggest problem with it.
我认为这是最大的问题。
Sriram Krishnan: Yeah, and look, I was being a bit bombastic obviously and it does have some .
Sriram Krishnan：是的，你看，我显然有点夸张，它确实有一些。
Lenny: We're going to edit this part out.
莱尼：我们要把这部分删掉。
This is .
这是。
Sriram Krishnan: Yeah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
斯里拉姆·克里希南：是啊，巴拉，巴拉，巴拉，巴拉，巴拉，巴拉。
It's may be useful in some niche case which nobody has ever heard about-
它可能在一些没有人听说过的利基案例中有用-
Sriram Krishnan: Right, for milkshakes.
Sriram Krishnan：对，奶昔。
Yeah, if you're starting a milkshake company, go for it.
是的，如果你要创办一家奶昔公司，那就去做吧。
But I'll say, so people have good what is the alternate, would involve not JTBD, how do we actually figure this out?
但我会说，所以人们有很好的替代方案，不会涉及 JTBD，我们实际上如何解决这个问题？
And I think a much better way and I really understand the early Facebook years, which is systems thinking.
我想到了一种更好的方法，而且我真正理解 Facebook 的早期岁月，这就是系统思维。
Think of all the players in the system, think of all of their incentives and how they interact with each other.
想想系统中的所有参与者，想想他们的所有激励措施以及他们如何彼此互动。
So in that milkshake example, your car, the person, the competitor across the road, the supply chain, the profit margin of each person, the podcast they have to listen to, what is each person's incentives that you're trying to drive and look at how they all work together.
因此，在奶昔的例子中，你的车、人、马路对面的竞争对手、供应链、每个人的利润率、他们必须听的播客、你试图推动的每个人的动机是什么，并看看他们如何一起工作。
Sriram Krishnan: So for example, so then when you look at the algorithmic rankings case, sure it kind of deprioritized a certain set of people, but it prioritized the other set of people and you could then have a much more rational discussion about whether that trade-off is worth it.
Sriram Krishnan：举个例子，当你看算法排名案例时，当然它会降低某些人的优先级，但它会优先考虑另一组人，然后你可以就这种权衡是否值得进行更理性的讨论。
Maybe it is, maybe it's not, but it's a much better discussion that, "Well, that person wanted milkshake, we're not giving them milkshake," what do you do?
也许是，也许不是，但这是一个更好的讨论，“好吧，那个人想要奶昔，我们不给他们奶昔，”你会怎么做？
That doesn't help you at all.
这对你根本没有帮助。
And yes, it may be a good tool in ways that I absolutely have not seen so far, but-
是的，它可能是一个很好的工具，但到目前为止我还没有见过，但是-
Aarthi Ramamurthy: Yeah, also the other tool I think I really like is first principles thinking.
Aarthi Ramamurthy：是的，我认为我真正喜欢的另一个工具是第一原理思维。
Everyone throws it out there, it's kind of become this cliche now, but really think about it as if your product didn't exist and if you had to start over from scratch, would you build it the exact same way for these set of customers?
每个人都把它扔在那里，现在这已经成为一种陈词滥调，但仔细想想，就好像你的产品不存在一样，如果你必须从头开始，你会以完全相同的方式为这些客户群体构建它吗？
How would you think about it?
你会怎么想？
Oftentimes people hyper-focused on competition and what other company is doing.
人们常常过度关注竞争和其他公司正在做的事情。
That almost never matters.
这几乎不重要。
Other companies are probably looking at you and going, "What are these guys doing?" And you have to look at it as all of these systems, as Sriram said, but also really think about it as if you had to do this all over again, how would you do this?
其他公司可能会看着你，然后问：“这些人在做什么？”正如 Sriram 所说，你必须将其视为所有这些系统，但也要认真思考，就好像你必须重新做一遍，你会怎么做？
Is this the right way or are you just inheriting decisions over time and just trying to make incremental changes and trade-offs and stuff like that?
这是正确的方法还是您只是随着时间的推移继承决策并只是尝试进行增量更改和权衡之类的事情？
I like that way more than trying to think of it as a job that a customer hires you to go do.
我更喜欢这种方式，而不是试图将其视为客户雇用你去做的工作。
It just sounds like really naive.
听起来真的很天真。
Sriram Krishnan: It makes you sound smart, I think.
Sriram Krishnan：我认为这让你听起来很聪明。
But I'll give you an example.
但我会给你举个例子。
Sorry, I have to-
抱歉，我必须——
Aarthi Ramamurthy: Stop.
阿蒂·拉玛莫西：停下来。
You just gave so many examples.
你刚才举了很多例子。
Lenny: Examples is good.
莱尼：例子很好。
Let's do one more example.
我们再举一个例子。
Sriram Krishnan: One last example, okay.
Sriram Krishnan：最后一个例子，好吧。
One of my favorite posts from Lenny in the recent times, I don't know when this episode going to go out, is the Duolingo growth post.
最近莱尼最喜欢的帖子之一，我不知道这一集什么时候发布，是 Duolingo 增长帖子。
I've been sharing it all the time, it's exactly one of the best posts I've seen recently.
我一直在分享它，这正是我最近看到的最好的帖子之一。
What is the job that people are hiring Duolingo to go do?
人们雇佣 Duolingo 去做什么工作？
Help teach them a new language, right?
帮助教他们一门新语言，对吗？
That sounds about right, some version of that.
听起来不错，是这样的版本。
But if you look at that post, what actually saved the company?
但如果你看看那篇文章，到底是什么拯救了公司？
Sriram Krishnan: So they tried dozens of different things, found their North Star metric, the current user retention rate, then they tried leaderboards, realized why leaderboards don't work.
Sriram Krishnan：所以他们尝试了几十种不同的东西，找到了他们的北极星指标，即当前的用户保留率，然后他们尝试了排行榜，意识到为什么排行榜不起作用。
Then ultimately, it is streaks that worked up.
最终，条纹发挥了作用。
Tell me how do you use Jobs-to-be-Done to get to a world where, "Hey, we really going to show these fire emojis and you need to kind of get that fire emoji every day.
告诉我你如何使用“待完成的工作”来实现这样一个世界：“嘿，我们真的要展示这些火表情符号，而你需要每天都得到这些火表情符号。
Because what it's really getting at is the sense of so there is no JTBD brainstorming offsite that'll ever get you there.
因为它真正要表达的是一种感觉，所以没有任何 JTBD 场外头脑风暴可以让你到达那里。
What I've seen quickly, is almost always when you get a great product breakthrough like that, it comes from one person usually having a product intuition about something, about the psychological thing the product delivers and systems thinking.
我很快看到的是，当你获得这样的伟大产品突破时，它几乎总是来自一个人通常对某件事、对产品提供的心理事物和系统思考有产品直觉。
Those are the only two places I've ever seen it up.
这是我见过的仅有的两个地方。
Okay, I'll stop now.
好吧，我现在就停下来。
Lenny: No, that example is amazing.
莱尼：不，这个例子太棒了。
I was going to talk about how I've actually found it a little useful in my life, but I think that's just going to keep us going-
我本想谈谈我如何发现它对我的生活有点用处，但我认为这只会让我们继续前进-
Aarthi Ramamurthy: I was just going to ask you, are you now convinced Lenny, because Sriram has spent 45,000 minutes just trying to tell you why you should not be using JTBD-
Aarthi Ramamurthy：我只是想问你，你现在相信 Lenny 了吗？因为 Sriram 花了 45,000 分钟只是想告诉你为什么不应该使用 JTBD-
Sriram Krishnan: I'm just going to get canceled by Lenny's audience.
Sriram Krishnan：我会被莱尼的观众取消。
Lenny's audience is like, "This is a reasonable podcast." They're like, "I now hate this guy." .
莱尼的观众会说，“这是一个合理的播客。”他们就像，“我现在讨厌这个家伙。” 。
Lenny: It.
莱尼：它。
I think the JTBD industrial complex is going to come after you.
我认为 JTBD 工业园区将会追随你。
Aarthi Ramamurthy: I think if you see a bunch of mass unsubscribes, I just want to say this is not on Lenny, this is on Sriram.
Aarthi Ramamurthy：我想如果你看到大量退订，我只想说这不是在 Lenny 上，而是在 Sriram 上。
Sriram Krishnan: Yeah, I'm going to get attacked by a bunch of people who are really good at holding offsites and framework thinking.
Sriram Krishnan：是的，我会受到一群非常善于保持异地和框架思维的人的攻击。
Lenny: Yeah.
莱尼：是的。
I find it useful in specific cases, not as a scaled product development process, I think which you've run into or just the whole company is run by Job-to-be-Done.
我发现它在特定情况下很有用，而不是作为规模化的产品开发过程，我认为您已经遇到过这种情况，或者整个公司都是由 Job-to-be-Done 运营的。
One paper was like, "What is the job?" And you're like, "The job is to get them to open that up three times more each day." Yeah.
一篇论文是这样的：“这份工作是什么？”你会说，“我们的工作就是让他们每天将其打开三倍。”是的。
Okay, I know you guys have to run so I have one more question.
好吧，我知道你们必须逃跑，所以我还有一个问题。
I have this saying in my family that whenever we do something well, I'm like, "We're making it in America," because we also immigrated from the Ukraine.
我在家里有这样一句话，每当我们做得很好时，我都会说，“我们在美国做到了”，因为我们也是从乌克兰移民的。
And as immigrants, you talked about your story of coming to America and clearly making it.
作为移民，您谈到了自己来到美国并成功的故事。
You're both at the center of, I don't know, what's happening in tech, which is also at the center of the world in many ways.
我不知道，你们都是科技领域正在发生的事情的中心，而科技在很多方面也是世界的中心。
I'm curious what advice you would give to immigrants and people that have moved here recently or even a while ago, just how to make it and be successful in the US, especially in tech?
我很好奇您会给移民和最近甚至不久前搬到这里的人什么建议，如何在美国取得成功并取得成功，特别是在科技领域？
Aarthi Ramamurthy: Some of it Sriram covered before, it's put yourself out there, don't be afraid to put yourself out there.
Aarthi Ramamurthy：Sriram 之前已经介绍过其中的一些内容，它让你自己脱颖而出，不要害怕让自己脱颖而出。
Oftentimes, for us, it took us a decade plus to feel comfortable doing that because we came in, we look different, we sound different, we have strong accents, the number of times I got told at both startups and before then, "Oh my God, your accent, it's so difficult, I can't hear you," or, "I don't understand what you're saying." I got told before fundraising that nobody will be able to invest in my company because the accent is too strong.
通常，对我们来说，我们花了十年多的时间才感到舒服，因为我们进来时，我们看起来不同，我们听起来不同，我们有很重的口音，我在两家初创公司以及在此之前被告知的次数，“天哪，你的口音，太难了，我听不见你的声音，”或者，“我听不懂你在说什么。”在融资之前我被告知没有人能够投资我的公司，因为口音太重了。
You already have these virtual barriers in your own head and then you have people coming and telling you actively that you are different and you can't succeed.
你的脑子里已经有了这些虚拟的障碍，然后有人过来主动告诉你，你与众不同，你无法成功。
Aarthi Ramamurthy: Now if I had to do it all over again, I almost think these differences are what sets us apart and makes us unique.
Aarthi Ramamurthy：现在，如果我必须重新来过，我几乎认为这些差异使我们与众不同，并使我们独一无二。
And you can do really interesting things with them because you are going to a place where you are rare and that's, I think, a really good thing.
你可以和他们一起做一些非常有趣的事情，因为你将去一个你很少见的地方，我认为这是一件非常好的事情。
So you should sharpen that rareness and do really interesting things with it, whatever that might be.
因此，你应该加强这种稀有性，并用它做一些真正有趣的事情，无论那是什么。
We have this show called Good Time Show, it's Aarthi and Sriram's Good Time Show and we focus a lot on outsiders being insiders or how you started out as...
我们有这个节目叫做《美好时光秀》，这是 Aarthi 和 Sriram 的《美好时光秀》，我们非常关注局外人是局内人，或者你是如何开始的……
For us, we are quintessential examples of that where we're outsiders to tech, to Silicon Valley, to being in this world and we kind of "made it" to being here.
对我们来说，我们是科技、硅谷、这个世界的局外人，我们是“成功”来到这里的典型例子。
And we often talk about what it takes to do that and whatever your version of being outsider and becoming an insider means.
我们经常讨论如何才能做到这一点，以及你对成为局外人和成为局内人的理解意味着什么。
And for us, part of it is not being afraid to put yourself out there, power of cold emails, networking and being really proactive about that.
对我们来说，部分原因在于不害怕将自己暴露在外、冷邮件的力量、网络以及真正积极主动地做到这一点。
What would you add to that or how do you think about it?
您会对此添加什么或者您如何看待它？
Sriram Krishnan: I think everything Aarthi said, I don't have much to add.
Sriram Krishnan：我认为 Aarthi 所说的一切，我没有太多要补充的。
I'll just say if you're listening to this and you're immigrant, A, you're in the right place, B, you're listening to this podcast, reading this newsletter which is probably not your day-to-day today job, so you're already doing something right, so you're going to make it.
我只想说，如果你正在听这个，而且你是移民，A，你来对地方了，B，你正在听这个播客，阅读这个时事通讯，这可能不是你今天的日常工作，所以你已经在做正确的事情了，所以你会成功的。
You're already putting yourself out, you're doing the right things, you're going to make it.
你已经全力以赴，你正在做正确的事情，你一定会成功的。
Lenny: What a beautiful way to end it.
莱尼：多么美妙的结束方式啊。
Two final questions, where can folks find you online, the Good Time Show, when you on Twitter, wherever?
最后两个问题，当你在 Twitter 上时，人们在哪里可以在网上找到你，Good Time Show，在哪里？
And then how can listeners be useful to you too?
那么听众如何对你也有用呢？
Sriram Krishnan: They can find us online on JTBD sucks...
Sriram Krishnan：他们可以在 JTBD 上在线找到我们，这很糟糕......
No, sorry.
不，抱歉。
That's my alt account.
那是我的替代帐户。
Well, we are on pretty much every platform.
嗯，我们几乎在每个平台上都有。
We are aarthiandsriram.com.
我们是 aarthiandsriram.com。
That's kind of a home for our podcast, our show, so go subscribe there, but you can find us everywhere.
那是我们的播客、我们的节目的家，所以去那里订阅吧，但你可以在任何地方找到我们。
We are on YouTube at again, Aarthi and Sriram, you can find us on Spotify podcast, wherever you get your daily milkshake/podcast and also on Twitter @aarthir and sriramk.
我们再次出现在 YouTube 上，Aarthi 和 Sriram，您可以在 Spotify 播客（无论您在哪里获得每日奶昔/播客）以及 Twitter @aarthir 和 sriramk 上找到我们。
Aarthi Ramamurthy: And how can people be useful .
Aarthi Ramamurthy：人们如何才能变得有用。
Sriram Krishnan: I would say, this is going to sound like a cliche, but my job is fantastic in a way where if people are building amazing things, I benefit.
Sriram Krishnan：我想说，这听起来像是陈词滥调，但我的工作非常棒，如果人们正在构建令人惊叹的东西，我就会受益。
Because if you build amazing things, odds are you're going to build a great company and then odds are that I'll have the chance to maybe invest or one of my partners will have the chance to invest and hopefully you make a bunch of money out of it.
因为如果你创造了令人惊叹的东西，那么你很可能会建立一家伟大的公司，然后我可能有机会投资，或者我的一个合作伙伴有机会投资，希望你能从中赚到一大笔钱。
So just go out there and build things, tell me about the things you're building and also just reach out-
所以，只要出去建造一些东西，告诉我你正在建造的东西，然后伸出援手-
Sriram Krishnan: Okay, let me put it, if you listen to this, send me a DM, send us a DM and send us an email and we will respond and-
Sriram Krishnan：好的，让我说一下，如果您听了这个，请给我发一条私信，给我们发一条私信，给我们发一封电子邮件，我们会回复-
Aarthi Ramamurthy: If it is JTPD hate, just send it to him, not me.
Aarthi Ramamurthy：如果是 JTPD 仇恨，就发给他，而不是我。
Just keep me out of it.
让我远离它。
But for everything else, if it's a nice note especially, send it to me, I will read it.
但对于其他一切，如果这是一个特别好的便条，请将其发送给我，我会阅读它。
Lenny: All right.
莱尼：好吧。
I hope you're ready for some DMs, both of you.
我希望你们已经准备好接受一些私信了。
Thank you again for being here.
再次感谢您来到这里。
You've set the bar high for our first duo guest.
您为我们的第一位双人客人设定了很高的标准。
Thank you again and goodbye everyone.
再次感谢大家，再见。
Lenny: Thank you so much for listening.
莱尼：非常感谢您的聆听。
If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or your favorite podcast app.
如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。
Also, please consider giving us a rating or a leaving review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.
另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。
You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.
您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。
See you in the next episode.
下一集见。