The rituals of great teams | Shishir Mehrotra, Coda, YouTube, Microsoft

Lenny Rachitsky: I generally value the reference check over interview signals.

Lenny Rachitsky：我通常更看重背景调查而不是面试信号。

If I had to stack rank in interviews, what is the best signal?

如果我必须在面试中排名，最好的信号是什么？

The reference check is the top of the list.

背景调查是列表的顶部。

Those people, they worked with this person sometimes for years, their knowledge, what you're going to get out of 30 minutes of artificial scenarios it's just like never going to compare what a good reference check will give you.

这些人，有时他们与这个人一起工作了好几年，他们的知识，你将从 30 分钟的人工场景中得到什么，就像永远不会比较好的背景调查会给你带来什么一样。

Lenny Rachitsky: Shishir Mehrotra is the co-founder and CEO of Coda.

Lenny Rachitsky：Shishir Mehrotra 是 Coda 的联合创始人兼首席执行官。

Before starting Coda Shishir led the YouTube product engineering and design teams at Google, where he spent over six years.

在创立之前，Coda Shishir 在 Google 领导 YouTube 产品工程和设计团队，并在那里工作了六年多。

Before that, he spent six years at Microsoft.

在此之前，他在微软工作了六年。

He's also on the board of Spotify.

他还是 Spotify 的董事会成员。

As you'll hear in this episode, Shishir is an incredibly deep and very first principles thinker on all kinds of topics.

正如您将在本集中听到的那样，Shishir 在各种主题上都是一位极其深刻且具有第一原则的思想家。

And in this episode we cover growth strategy, specifically a framework that he calls Blue Loops and Black Loops.

在本集中，我们将介绍增长战略，特别是他称之为“蓝色循环”和“黑色循环”的框架。

Lenny Rachitsky: We talk about the rituals of great teams, something that Shishir has been passionate about and has been collecting from all of the best leaders in tech for the past two years, and which will soon turn into a book.

Lenny Rachitsky：我们谈论伟大团队的仪式，这是 Shishir 一直热衷的东西，并且在过去两年里一直从科技领域所有最优秀的领导者那里收集这些东西，这些东西很快就会变成一本书。

We talk about Eigenquestions, which is not a German game show.

我们谈论特征问题，这不是德国游戏节目。

He shares how he evaluates product talent and gives some really great advice on doing reference checks.

他分享了他如何评估产品人才，并就进行背景调查提供了一些非常好的建议。

We go into so many other topics, this is the longest episode that I've recorded yet, and you'll see why.

我们讨论了很多其他主题，这是我录制过的最长的一集，您会明白原因的。

Shishir is so full of wisdom and we could have kept going for at least another hour.

希希尔是如此充满智慧，我们可以继续至少一个小时。

And so with that, I bring you Shishir Mehrotra.

因此，我为您带来了 Shishir Mehrotra。

Hey Casey Winters, what do you love about Coda?

嘿凯西温特斯，你喜欢 Coda 的什么？

Casey: Coda is a company that's actually near and dear to my heart because I got to work on their launch when I was at Greylock.

Casey：Coda 是一家我非常亲近的公司，因为我在 Greylock 的时候就参与了他们的发布工作。

But in terms of what I love about it, I love loops and Coda has some of the coolest and most useful content loops I've seen.

但就我喜欢它的方面而言，我喜欢循环，而且 Coda 拥有一些我见过的最酷、最有用的内容循环。

How the loop works is someone can create a coda and share it publicly for the world.

这个循环的工作原理是有人可以创建一个尾声并将其公开分享给全世界。

This can be how you create OKRs, run annual planning, build your roadmap, whatever.

这可以是您创建 OKR、运行年度计划、构建路线图等的方式。

Every one of those codas can then be easily copied and adapted to your organization without knowing who originally even wrote it.

这些尾声中的每一个都可以轻松复制并适应您的组织，而无需知道最初是谁编写的。

So they're embedding the sharing of best practices of scaling companies into their core product and growth loops, which is something I'm personally passionate about.

因此，他们将分享扩大公司规模的最佳实践嵌入到他们的核心产品和增长循环中，这是我个人热衷的事情。

Lenny Rachitsky: I actually use Coda myself every day.

Lenny Rachitsky：我自己实际上每天都使用 Coda。

It's the center of my writing and podcasting operation.

这是我写作和播客业务的中心。

I use it for first drafts to organize my content calendar, to plan each podcast episode on so many more things.

我用它作为初稿来组织我的内容日历，规划每个播客剧集的更多内容。

Coda is giving listeners this podcast, $1,000 in free credit off their first statement.

Coda 在这个播客中为听众提供 1,000 美元的免费信用额度。

Just go to coda.io/lenny.

只需访问 coda.io/lenny。

That's coda.io/lenny.

那是 coda.io/lenny。

Hey Ashley, head of marketing and flat file.

嘿 Ashley，营销和平面文件主管。

How many B2B SaaS companies would you estimate need to import CSV files from their customers?

您估计有多少家 B2B SaaS 公司需要从其客户导入 CSV 文件？

Lenny Rachitsky: And how many of them screw that up and what happens when they do?

Lenny Rachitsky：他们中有多少人搞砸了，当他们这样做时会发生什么？

Ashley: Well based on our data, about a third of people will consider switching to another company after just one bad experience during onboarding.

阿什利：根据我们的数据，大约三分之一的人在入职期间经历过一次糟糕的经历后就会考虑跳槽到另一家公司。

So if your CSV importer doesn't work right, which is super common considering customer files are chock-full of unexpected and formatting, they'll leave.

因此，如果您的 CSV 导入器无法正常工作（考虑到客户文件充满了意外的格式），这种情况非常常见，他们就会离开。

Lenny Rachitsky: I am 0% surprised to hear that.

Lenny Rachitsky：听到这个消息我感到 0% 惊讶。

I've consistently seen that improving onboarding is one of the highest leverage opportunities for both signup conversion and increasing long-term retention.

我一直认为，改善入职是注册转化和提高长期保留的最高杠杆机会之一。

Getting people to your aha moment more quickly and reliably is so incredibly important.

让人们更快、更可靠地进入顿悟时刻非常重要。

Ashley: Totally.

阿什利：完全可以。

It's incredible to see how our customers like Square, Spotify and Zuora are able to grow their businesses on top of flat file.

看到 Square、Spotify 和 Zuora 等我们的客户如何能够在平面文件上发展业务，真是令人难以置信。

It's because flawless data onboarding acts like a catalyst to get them and their customers where they need to go faster.

这是因为完美的数据导入就像催化剂一样，让他们及其客户更快地到达需要的地方。

Lenny Rachitsky: If you'd like to learn more or get started, check out Flatfile at flatfile.com/lenny.

Lenny Rachitsky：如果您想了解更多信息或开始使用，请访问 flatfile.com/lenny 查看 Flatfile。

Shishir, welcome to the podcast.

希希尔，欢迎来到播客。

Lenny Rachitsky: I don't think I've actually shared this with you, but you're actually the very first CEO that I've had on this podcast.

Lenny Rachitsky：我认为我实际上并没有与您分享这一点，但您实际上是我在这个播客上遇到的第一位首席执行官。

I actually have a rule of no founders or CEOs on the podcast, at least at this point.

事实上，我有一条规则，播客上不得有创始人或首席执行官，至少目前是这样。

And you're the first person that I've let break this rule.

而你是我让第一个打破这条规则的人。

And so how does that feel?

那感觉如何？

Shishir Mehrotra: I've always been a rule breaker.

Shishir Mehrotra：我一直都是规则破坏者。

Lenny Rachitsky: Perfect.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：完美。

So bio for listeners just briefly.

简单介绍一下听众的简介。

So you're the founder and CEO of Coda.

你是 Coda 的创始人兼首席执行官。

You spend six years at Google where you're a VP of product and engineering for YouTube, basically leading the YouTube product team.

您在 Google 工作了六年，担任 YouTube 产品和工程副总裁，主要领导 YouTube 产品团队。

Spent six years at Microsoft, you're on Spotify as board of directors, you're also a prolific online writer.

您在 Microsoft 工作了六年，担任 Spotify 董事会成员，同时也是一位多产的在线作家。

And that leads to my first question, which is I hear that at Coda there's a contest internally for people who actually...

这就引出了我的第一个问题，我听说在 Coda 有一场内部竞赛，对象是那些实际上......

So maybe a little context, you encourage people to write a lot of stuff externally within Coda.

所以也许有一点背景，你鼓励人们在 Coda 外部编写很多东西。

You want people to be writing and you have this contest of who gets the most views and likes of people internally.

你希望人们写作，并且你要进行一场竞赛，看看谁在内部获得最多的观点和喜欢。

And so is that true and who's winning?

那么这是真的吗？谁是赢家？

Shishir Mehrotra: By the way, yes, it's true.

Shishir Mehrotra：顺便说一句，是的，这是真的。

We did a similar thing at YouTube and YouTube creators.

我们在 YouTube 和 YouTube 创作者身上也做了类似的事情。

I mean obviously kicked our butts, but we made a good way to make sure we understood our tools and learned how it worked.

我的意思是，显然我们很失败，但我们做了一个很好的方法来确保我们理解我们的工具并了解它是如何工作的。

And I think for a while at YouTube I had one of the top videos, it was a really cute video of my daughter taking everybody's orders when she was like three or four years old.

我想有一段时间在 YouTube 上我有一个最热门的视频，这是一个非常可爱的视频，内容是我女儿在三四岁的时候接受每个人的订单。

Shishir Mehrotra: Yeah, super cute kid is an easy trick for YouTube, but I get to learn all the tools and so on here, the equivalent at Coda is you can publish Coda Docs, they show up in the gallery coda.com/gallery, you can see lots of them.

Shishir Mehrotra：是的，超级可爱的孩子对于 YouTube 来说是一个简单的技巧，但我可以在这里学习所有的工具等等，在 Coda 相当于你可以发布 Coda 文档，它们出现在 coda.com/gallery 画廊中，你可以看到很多。

And at this point, thousands of docs when published from lots of different people, it gets millions of views.

此时，由许多不同的人发布的数千份文档会获得数百万次浏览。

And like at YouTube, the most popular ones are not ours, but it is sometimes helpful for us to make sure that we understand how the whole system works in order to do it.

就像在 YouTube 一样，最受欢迎的不是我们的，但有时确保我们了解整个系统的工作原理以实现这一目标对我们很有帮助。

So I think that the current winning doc at Coda is one in a pretty deep niche.

所以我认为目前 Coda 的获奖博士是一个非常深入的领域的博士。

It's from a guy named Kenny Wong on our data team, and it's an orange theory workout doc.

这是我们数据团队中一位名叫 Kenny Wong 的人发来的，是一份橙色理论锻炼文档。

So it turns that orange theory has this deep subculture that they all hang out together on Reddit and so on.

事实证明，橙色理论有这种深厚的亚文化，他们都在 Reddit 等网站上一起闲逛。

And this doc just took off as...

这位医生刚刚起飞...

I don't really understand the doc, I'm not in that subculture, but it's similar to YouTube in some ways.

我不太理解该文档，我不属于那种亚文化，但它在某些方面与 YouTube 类似。

It's like the niches are actually much bigger than people think.

就好像利基市场实际上比人们想象的要大得多。

Shishir Mehrotra: Of the ones that are more work related, I think Lane Stock on two-way writeup still outranks all of mine, but I have a couple of good ones on there too.

Shishir Mehrotra：在与工作更多相关的内容中，我认为 Lane Stock 在双向写作上的排名仍然超过了我的所有内容，但我也有一些不错的内容。

And I would say this competition exists in my family too.

我想说这种竞争在我的家庭中也存在。

I don't usually even win with that in my own family, my older daughter, Annika, who also had that great video on YouTube has two docs that do really well.

在我自己的家里，我通常不会以此取胜，我的大女儿 Annika 在 YouTube 上也有很棒的视频，她有两个文档做得非常好。

One is Family Quarantine Olympics, which is a thing she put together at the beginning of COVID, like a fun game for families to play.

其中一个是“家庭隔离奥运会”，这是她在新冠疫情爆发之初组织起来的一个项目，就像一个适合家庭玩的有趣游戏。

And the other one is a score tracker for a game called Ticket to Ride, which I don't know if you've ever played the game, but it's...

另一个是一款名为 Ticket to Ride 的游戏的分数追踪器，我不知道你是否玩过这个游戏，但它......

Shishir Mehrotra: It's about the most complicated scoring system on the planet because you play the whole game and you spend 10 minutes scoring it.

Shishir Mehrotra：这是地球上最复杂的评分系统，因为你玩整个游戏，然后花 10 分钟来评分。

And she built this whole scoring calculator and that turns out to be super popular too.

她构建了整个评分计算器，结果也非常受欢迎。

Anyway, but my docs do okay.

无论如何，但我的文档没问题。

But yeah, the interesting variety of what people end up doing.

但是，是的，人们最终会做各种各样有趣的事情。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love that.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢这个。

Which of your docs has been the most successful?

您的哪份文档最成功？

Hopefully we end up talking about it.

希望我们最终能谈论它。

Shishir Mehrotra: I think it goes back and forth between two docs I've written one called Eigenquestions, which I think you intend to talk about, so we will get back to that.

Shishir Mehrotra：我认为这在我写的两篇文档之间来回切换，其中一篇名为“特征问题”，我认为您打算讨论该问题，所以我们会回到这个话题。

Shishir Mehrotra: And the other one is one I wrote a while back called Four Mitzvot Bundling.

Shishir Mehrotra：另一个是我不久前写的，名为“四戒捆绑”。

That's all about how subscriptions work and it's how I ended up on the board of Spotify with Daniel and I geeking out on bundling theory, which is a super weird hobby, but I have normal hobbies too.

这就是订阅的运作方式，也是我最终与 Daniel 一起加入 Spotify 董事会的原因，我和 Daniel 一起研究捆绑理论，这是一个超级奇怪的爱好，但我也有正常的爱好。

But I liked it.

但我喜欢它。

I like to explore bundling as a fun hobby and people enjoy that doc as well.

我喜欢探索捆绑作为一种有趣的爱好，人们也喜欢这个文档。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, you've shared a lot of good thoughts on that and we're not going to cover that because covered that in depth in many places.

Lenny Rachitsky：是的，您对此分享了很多好的想法，我们不会对此进行介绍，因为在很多地方都进行了深入介绍。

But just to clarify, did you write that doc and then led you to being on the board of Spotify or is that after the fact?

但澄清一下，是你写了那篇文档，然后让你成为 Spotify 的董事会成员，还是事后才这样？

Shishir Mehrotra: The conversation led to...

Shishir Mehrotra：谈话导致......

It was a napkin sketch at YouTube that turned into a really fun lunch I had with Daniel, Daniel at the Spotify founder and CEO.

这是 YouTube 上的一张餐巾纸草图，后来变成了我与丹尼尔（Spotify 创始人兼首席执行官丹尼尔）共进的一顿非常有趣的午餐。

And then he encouraged me to write it down.

然后他鼓励我把它写下来。

And for me, you write prolifically and writing for me is actually surprisingly hard.

对我来说，你写得很多，而写作对我来说实际上是出奇的困难。

I feel like I have to think about it.

我觉得我必须考虑一下。

Shishir Mehrotra: You make it seem really easy.

Shishir Mehrotra：你让它看起来很简单。

For me he's like, "Could you write that down?" It's like, "Great.

对我来说，他就像，“你能写下来吗？”就像是，“太棒了。

Now I'm going to take a year to write this thing down." Because you think through each part of it and you kind of come up with the right framing.

现在我要花一年的时间来写下这件事。”因为你仔细思考了它的每个部分，然后你就想出了正确的框架。

I have a little review process I use for my docs that allows other people to help me make it better, which is always really helpful.

我对我的文档使用了一个小的审查流程，允许其他人帮助我改进它，这总是非常有帮助的。

But yeah, so that's how that started.

但是，是的，事情就是这样开始的。

So it got written down after.

所以后来就写下来了。

Yeah.

是的。

Lenny Rachitsky: So we were talking about writing and content and things like that, and that's a really good segue to the first thing I wanted to talk about, which is Black Loops and Blue Loops, which to folks that haven't heard this before might sound like some ultimate fighting nightmare scenario, but it's something that is really important to you and Coda.

Lenny Rachitsky：所以我们正在谈论写作和内容之类的事情，这是我想谈论的第一件事的一个很好的延续，即黑色循环和蓝色循环，对于以前没有听过的人来说，这可能听起来像是一些终极战斗噩梦场景，但这对你和 Coda 来说非常重要。

And so to set it up, can you just talk about what Black Loops and Blue Loops are?

为了进行设置，您能谈谈什么是黑色循环和蓝色循环吗？

Shishir Mehrotra: Yeah, and it's probably worth mentioning.

Shishir Mehrotra：是的，这可能值得一提。

I think a lot of businesses have a diagram that describes their ecosystem and how it works.

我认为很多企业都有一个图表来描述他们的生态系统及其运作方式。

Sometimes it happens a little later in a company's journey.

有时，在公司的发展历程中，这种情况会发生得稍晚一些。

For us, we're probably three or four years in before Matt Hudson's runs our data finance teams here.

对我们来说，马特·哈德森 (Matt Hudson) 在这里管理我们的数据财务团队可能需要三四年的时间。

He came up with this diagram and it really stuck for people.

他想出了这个图表，它确实让人们印象深刻。

But I highly encourage drawing a diagram like this for your business.

但我强烈鼓励为您的业务绘制这样的图表。

I'll flash it up on screen for a second and I'll describe it, but this is what the diagram looks like, black loop, blue loop, and it's basically the two different ways that our product spreads.

我将在屏幕上闪现它一秒钟，然后描述它，但这就是图表的样子，黑色循环，蓝色循环，这基本上是我们产品传播的两种不同方式。

The Black Loop is someone comes in, they make a doc, they share with a group of people, some subset of the people turn around and make another doc, and the process repeats itself over and over again.

黑色循环是有人进来，他们制作了一个文档，他们与一群人共享，一部分人转身制作了另一个文档，这个过程一遍又一遍地重复。

Shishir Mehrotra: The blue loop is someone comes in, makes a doc, and instead of sharing it with a team or with the collaborators, they publish it to the world.

Shishir Mehrotra：蓝色循环是有人进来制作文档，然后他们不与团队或合作者共享，而是将其发布给全世界。

And in that process expose it to, they can choose how it should appear.

在这个过程中，他们可以选择它的显示方式。

What publishing in Coda is a lot like building a website.

在 Coda 中发布很像建立一个网站。

So you pick a URL, you tell us whether or not Google should be able to find it show up in the gallery and so on.

所以你选择一个 URL，你告诉我们 Google 是否应该能够找到它出现在图库中等等。

And what ends up happening from that is they turn into broad promotion of Coda, but really it's about that person what they're trying to get done.

最终发生的事情是他们变成了对 Coda 的广泛推广，但实际上他们想要完成的事情是关于那个人的。

And I'll stop sharing so I can talk a little about the dynamics.

我将停止分享，以便我可以谈谈动态。

So I sometimes refer to them as the Microsoft Loop and the YouTube Loop because those are two inspirations for it.

因此，我有时将它们称为 Microsoft Loop 和 YouTube Loop，因为这是它的两个灵感来源。

The Black Loop feels a lot like how documents naturally spread.

黑环感觉很像文档自然传播的方式。

Shishir Mehrotra: The viral actions of a document platform are shared, create, share, create.

Shishir Mehrotra：文档平台的病毒式传播就是共享、创建、共享、创建。

It happens over and over and over again.

它一次又一次地发生。

The best way you learn about Office or Google Docs or so on is somebody shares one with you and you're like, "Oh, that's pretty cool.

了解 Office 或 Google 文档等的最佳方式是有人与您分享一个，然后您会说：“哦，那太酷了。

I bet I could create one." And that loop can happen very, very quickly and it really drives for us a lot of how we think about how we work mostly within companies and teams, but sometimes across them as well.

我打赌我能创造出一个。”这种循环可能会非常非常快地发生，它确实在很大程度上推动了我们如何思考我们如何工作，主要是在公司和团队内部，但有时也跨公司和团队。

And so for an example, it led to our pricing model.

举个例子，它导致了我们的定价模型。

So our pricing model is a little different than most companies in the space that we do a thing called Maker Billing.

因此，我们的定价模式与该领域的大多数公司略有不同，我们开展了“创客计费”业务。

So basically all document products, all products with the document metaphor have three personas, people who can see things, people who can change things, and people who can create new things.

所以基本上所有的文档产品，所有带有文档隐喻的产品都有三个角色，可以看到事物的人，可以改变事物的人，以及可以创造新事物的人。

Shishir Mehrotra: Basically everybody charges for the top two.

Shishir Mehrotra：基本上每个人都对前两名收费。

They charge for editors and makers.

他们向编辑和制作者收费。

If you can make changes then you have to pay.

如果你可以做出改变，那么你就必须付费。

And that's like every document product you can think of, including ones do drawing or so on.

这就像您能想到的所有文档产品，包括绘图等。

They all do the same thing.

他们都做同样的事情。

And we decided that we're only going to chart for people when they make a document.

我们决定只在人们制作文档时为其绘制图表。

So you think about it, you get a Coda doc, you only need one If you are using any of our paid features, you only need one paid license for doing it.

所以你想一想，你得到了一份 Coda 文档，你只需要一份。如果你使用我们的任何付费功能，你只需要一份付费许可证即可。

And the reason we do that in terms of that diagram is I wanted no friction on the share edge.

我们按照该图这样做的原因是我希望共享边缘上没有摩擦。

I mean the share edge for us is like that's the moment of, "Hey look, I'm doing this thing, it's so cool." And that's the moment where the line I gave to the team is I want no dollar signs in the share dial going into that, every product has its moment of how he's for growth.

我的意思是，我们的分享优势就像是这样的时刻：“嘿，看，我正在做这件事，太酷了。”就在那时，我向团队传达的信息是，我不希望份额表盘中出现任何美元符号，每个产品都有其增长的时刻。

Shishir Mehrotra: And going back to YouTube, imagine you had to pay for people you shared with.

Shishir Mehrotra：回到 YouTube，想象一下你必须为与你分享的人付费。

Nobody would ever share anything.

没有人会分享任何东西。

But that's how basically every productivity product works is the moment they charge you is when you share with somebody.

但这基本上就是每个生产力产品的工作方式，它们向你收费的那一刻就是你与某人分享的时候。

The Blue Loop, I often call the YouTube loop because the emotions of publishing a doc are incredibly close to that of publishing a YouTube video.

蓝色循环，我经常称之为 YouTube 循环，因为发布文档的情感与发布 YouTube 视频的情感非常接近。

And people have all sorts of reasons why they do it.

人们这样做有各种各样的理由。

I mean sometimes people do it, there are people who do it for money, but a lot of people do it for exposure, for brand building.

我的意思是有时人们这样做，有些人这样做是为了钱，但很多人这样做是为了曝光，为了品牌建设。

They just want to get an idea out in the world.

他们只是想将一个想法传播到世界各地。

They want to get feedback.

他们希望得到反馈。

Some people do it for fun, some people do it as a charitable contribution.

有些人这样做是为了好玩，有些人这样做是为了慈善捐款。

There's lots of reasons why people do it, but the net effect of what happens is for YouTube, the vast majority of how people found out about YouTube was through a video that was shared with them.

人们这样做的原因有很多，但所发生的事情的最终影响是对 YouTube 而言，人们发现 YouTube 的绝大多数方式是通过与他们分享的视频。

Shishir Mehrotra: That's sort of the impact, but it changes the dynamic that allows everyone who publishes a Coda doc, now it's a very natural incentive to go share it with the right population.

Shishir Mehrotra：这就是影响，但它改变了允许每个发布 Coda 文档的人的动态，现在与合适的人群分享它是一种非常自然的激励。

If you're an orange theory, you share it with the orange theory population.

如果你是橙色理论，你就会与橙色理论群体分享它。

If you're into plane ticket to ride, you share it with the ticket to ride population.

如果您喜欢乘坐飞机票，您可以与乘坐飞机票的人群分享。

But if you're into bundling, you try to find a small group of people that care about bundling, tell them all about that.

但如果你热衷于捆绑销售，你会尝试找到一小群关心捆绑销售的人，告诉他们这一切。

And what happens for us is that then becomes a loop.

我们所发生的事情就是这变成了一个循环。

That means that most people's exposure and almost a third of our users come through this loop.

这意味着大多数人的曝光以及我们近三分之一的用户都经历过这个循环。

They're not actually exposed to Coda, they're exposed to a great idea for how to run an offsite or how to win ticket to ride or whatever it might be.

他们实际上并没有接触到 Coda，而是接触到了如何运营异地或如何赢得乘车票或其他任何东西的好主意。

And in that process, they learn about the product.

在此过程中，他们了解了产品。

And so then they come in through this vehicle.

然后他们通过这辆车进来。

Shishir Mehrotra: And one reason it's very important is because for products like ours that are very horizontal, you get different types of users.

Shishir Mehrotra：这一点非常重要的原因之一是，对于像我们这样非常横向的产品，你会得到不同类型的用户。

There's some users that I call the building block thinkers, they like to build up from scratch and the blank surface of Coda is really amazing for them, but for most people that's intimidating.

有些用户我称之为构建块思考者，他们喜欢从头开始构建，Coda 的空白表面对他们来说确实令人惊叹，但对大多数人来说这令人生畏。

I don't really know what to do.

我真的不知道该怎么办。

Most people in the world are problem solvers.

世界上大多数人都是问题解决者。

And so they start not by, "Do I need a new document?" They start with, "I've got a problem, we don't make decisions fast enough at our company," or, "My family can't figure out what to do on the weekend," or whatever it might be.

因此，他们不会从“我需要新文件吗？”开始。他们首先会说，“我遇到了问题，我们公司做决定的速度不够快”，或者“我的家人不知道周末该做什么”，或者其他什么。

And then when they find a solution to that problem, they then pick the right tool.

然后，当他们找到该问题的解决方案时，他们就会选择正确的工具。

And so the blue Loop allows us to go after that and it changes how the motion of the ecosystem works as well.

因此，蓝色循环让我们能够追求这一目标，它也改变了生态系统的运作方式。

But that's what Blue Loop and Blue Loop is.

但这就是“蓝环”和“蓝环”。

Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

I have a bunch of questions I want to ask.

我有一堆问题想问。

The first is for founder listening to this and they're like, "Oh man, what am I loops?

第一个是创始人听到这个，他们会说，“天哪，我在循环什么？

What's my flywheel?

我的飞轮是什么？

How do I think about my business?" Can you talk a bit about how you came upon this way of thinking about the company?

我如何看待我的事业？”您能谈谈您是如何想到对公司进行这种思考的吗？

And then also how do you structure your teams to work in this way if this is the way you're thinking about growth?

如果这就是您考虑增长的方式，您如何构建您的团队以这种方式工作？

Shishir Mehrotra: Maybe on the first part, and I think you just hosted Casey Winters, he is pretty famous for talking about loops, not funnels.

Shishir Mehrotra：也许在第一部分，我想你刚刚主持了 Casey Winters，他因谈论循环而不是漏斗而闻名。

And I do think there's a very natural thing when you're building a product or building a business to think about your funnel and you think about things as being linear, that somebody comes in, they go up to your signup process and then they see your onboarding and then they get exposed to the first magic moment in your product and the second magic moment, so on.

我确实认为，当你在构建一个产品或建立一个业务时，考虑你的漏斗，你认为事情是线性的，有人进来，他们进入你的注册流程，然后他们看到你的入职，然后他们接触到你的产品的第一个神奇时刻和第二个神奇时刻，等等。

Shishir Mehrotra: But the truth is, it doesn't really work that way.

Shishir Mehrotra：但事实是，事实并非如此。

Almost all products have some form of loop.

几乎所有产品都有某种形式的循环。

That person turns around and maybe sharing is built right in your product or maybe it's not, or maybe there's a way that it happens through advocacy, but understanding that the way products actually grow and spread happen through some type of loop not funnel, is I think pretty fundamental.

那个人转过身来，也许分享是在你的产品中建立的，也可能不是，或者也许有一种通过倡导来实现的方式，但我认为理解产品实际增长和传播的方式是通过某种类型的循环而不是漏斗发生的，这是非常重要的。

So first piece of advice I'd give is you probably do have a loop.

所以我给出的第一条建议是你可能确实有一个循环。

Whatever the product is, there's probably something about it that causes that loop and understanding how that works really important.

无论产品是什么，它都可能有某种原因导致循环，了解其工作原理非常重要。

I mean in terms of what it is.

我的意思是就它是什么而言。

In our case, I'd say if you take Black Loop and Blue Loop, the Black Loop is every product in our category has that.

就我们而言，我想说，如果您采用黑色环路和蓝色环路，那么我们类别中的每个产品都具有黑色环路。

We didn't invent it.

它不是我们发明的。

You build a document, you put a share button on it, every product has that.

你建立一个文档，在上面放置一个共享按钮，每个产品都有这个按钮。

Shishir Mehrotra: Sometimes it's just recognizing what's there.

Shishir Mehrotra：有时只是认识到那里有什么。

It's not that interesting.

这没那么有趣。

The Blue Loop on the other hand, is not something that every product in our category has.

另一方面，蓝色循环并不是我们类别中的每个产品都具有的。

It's not really a thing that you expect to do with Google Docs or Office or so on.

这实际上并不是您希望使用 Google Docs 或 Office 等工具完成的事情。

It's our unique take on, "Hey, we're going to build a publishing platform that isn't just for sharing ideas and building things with your team, therefore putting things out in the world." I mean, one of the best compliments we hear about the Coda Gallery is I had this user tell me, this line I really love is said that the Coda Gallery feels halfway between Medium and an app store.

这是我们独特的看法，“嘿，我们将建立一个发布平台，不仅仅是为了与您的团队分享想法和构建东西，从而将东西推向世界。”我的意思是，我们听到的关于 Coda Gallery 最好的赞美之一是我让这位用户告诉我，我非常喜欢这句话，据说 Coda Gallery 感觉介于 Medium 和应用程序商店之间。

And you can come and you can read about anything interesting in the world and you can go shopping and say, "I need one of those.

你可以来阅读世界上任何有趣的东西，你可以去购物并说：“我需要其中一个。

I need one of those and I need one of those."

我需要其中之一，我也需要其中之一。”

Shishir Mehrotra: And it's my view that this category, we call the all-in-one doc category, I think this is going to be critical.

Shishir Mehrotra：我认为这个类别，我们称之为一体化文档类别，我认为这将是至关重要的。

I don't think that there's enough people out there that are looking for a horizontal new blinking cursor.

我认为没有足够多的人正在寻找水平的新闪烁光标。

I mean, they exist and you can get through your first million users that way.

我的意思是，它们存在，你可以通过这种方式获得第一百万用户。

But I think to get to the level of impact we want to have, we've got to find this problem, see here.

但我认为要达到我们想要的影响水平，我们必须找到这个问题，请参见此处。

So you probably have a loop, not a funnel, and it might be hiding in plain sight or it might require invention.

因此，您可能有一个循环，而不是漏斗，它可能隐藏在显而易见的地方，或者可能需要发明。

That's the bounder dance and the fun of it, but finding it, writing it down I think is really helpful.

这就是边界舞蹈和它的乐趣，但找到它，把它写下来，我认为真的很有帮助。

Second part...

第二部分...

Oh, how do we organize team?

哦，我们如何组织团队？

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, but let me ask one quick question.

Lenny Rachitsky：是的，但让我问一个简单的问题。

You said this, I think it was a data scientist that first imagined and diagram this out because I'm curious, as a founder listening, they're like, "Oh, how do I find something like this?" I imagined part of this was, "Oh, this person brought you this interesting way of thinking." And there's this process of, "Oh wow, this is cool.

你这么说，我认为是一位数据科学家首先想象并阐明了这一点，因为我很好奇，作为创始人倾听，他们会说，“哦，我如何找到这样的东西？”我想象其中的一部分是，“哦，这个人给你带来了这种有趣的思维方式。”有一个过程，“哦哇，这太酷了。

Let's think about this." What was that like?

让我们考虑一下这个问题。”那是什么样子的？

Just over high level, that process.

这个过程刚刚超过了高水平。

Shishir Mehrotra: He currently runs data and finance for us.

Shishir Mehrotra：他目前为我们管理数据和财务。

He's actually one of the early founding members of the team, Matt Hudson.

他实际上是该团队的早期创始成员之一，马特·哈德森。

So he is getting every job here around the go to market team.

因此，他的每一份工作都是围绕进入市场团队进行的。

Very insightful.

非常有见地。

But honestly, the idea can come from anywhere.

但老实说，这个想法可以来自任何地方。

I mean there's a really famous loop diagram for Uber that I think one of the board members drew it or Travis drew it.

我的意思是，Uber 有一个非常著名的循环图，我认为是董事会成员之一或特拉维斯画的。

Shishir Mehrotra: Yeah, right.

Shishir Mehrotra：是的，没错。

Yeah, that napkin sketch, who knows how true that is.

是的，那张餐巾纸草图，谁知道那是多么真实。

Probably lots of dispute on that.

可能对此有很多争议。

I think Airbnb had a similar diagram.

我认为 Airbnb 也有类似的图表。

I'm trying to remember.

我正在努力回忆。

Lenny Rachitsky: We tried, we had some sketches.

Lenny Rachitsky：我们尝试过，我们有一些草图。

Shishir Mehrotra: Right.

希希尔·梅赫罗特拉： 是的。

So it can come from anywhere.

所以它可以来自任何地方。

I do find that the most natural place to see it is just when you're talking about your business to someone, when you're pitching a customer or a candidate, I actually think candidate...

我确实发现最自然的看到它的地方就是当你与某人谈论你的业务时，当你向客户或候选人推销时，我实际上认为候选人......

I think we're going to talk a little bit about energy, but I think talking to candidates is one of the best ways to hone what your business is about.

我认为我们将讨论一些关于能源的问题，但我认为与候选人交谈是磨练您的业务的最佳方式之一。

Because those people are in some ways even more critical than investors.

因为这些人在某些方面甚至比投资者更挑剔。

I mean they're investing their time, not just their money.

我的意思是他们投资的是时间，而不仅仅是金钱。

And so your ability to get across to them why this thing is going to be interesting and how it'll grow.

所以你有能力向他们解释为什么这件事会变得有趣以及它将如何发展。

Shishir Mehrotra: And they're the most discerning investors out there in a lot of ways.

Shishir Mehrotra：从很多方面来说，他们都是最有眼光的投资者。

And they're actually not that easily confused by metrics and so on that could be temporary.

事实上，他们并不那么容易被指标等所迷惑，而这些指标可能是暂时的。

And they put themselves in that picture like, "Can I see that happening?" And so for us, the black loop part is pretty obvious, but the blue loop part, you had to squint a little bit to think, "Will people really do that?

他们将自己置于这样的画面中，“我可以看到这一切发生吗？”所以对我们来说，黑色循环部分非常明显，但是蓝色循环部分，你必须眯着眼睛思考，“人们真的会这样做吗？

Will people come and publish these documents like some hybrid between websites and blog posts and templates?

人们会像网站、博客文章和模板的混合体一样发布这些文档吗？

What are they going to going to do and why?" And so it required a little bit of creativity, which forced me to get better and better at pitching why that's going to happen and what that role is going to feel like.

他们要做什么，为什么？”因此，这需要一点创造力，这迫使我越来越擅长阐述为什么会发生这种情况以及这个角色会是什么样的感觉。

And this analogy of halfway between Medium and an app store is that helped people crystallize what that promise has to feel like.

这种介于 Medium 和应用程序商店之间的类比可以帮助人们具体化这一承诺的感觉。

So I think that...

所以我认为...

And this idea can come from anywhere, but if you want mine for your own loops, go look at what you told the last few candidates you talked to.

这个想法可以来自任何地方，但如果你想将我的想法用于你自己的循环，请看看你对最近几位与你交谈过的候选人说了什么。

Lenny Rachitsky: I like that.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢这样。

And then just take some attempts at drawing some kind of diagrams.

然后尝试绘制某种图表。

That's how I thought about that when I was thinking about it.

当我思考这个问题时，我就是这么想的。

Do you find that the quality of user is different amongst the loops?

您是否发现各个循环之间的用户质量存在差异？

I imagine one is like 80% of the growth, but maybe the other is a different type of user, maybe higher quality.

我想一个是增长的 80%，但另一个可能是不同类型的用户，也许质量更高。

I think about a little bit with Airbnb referrals drove higher quality hosts, even though it was still a small portion of all hosts.

我认为 Airbnb 的推荐推动了更高质量的房东，尽管它仍然只占所有房东的一小部分。

And so it was a really lucrative and interesting channel.

所以这是一个非常有利可图且有趣的渠道。

Do you find anything like that?

你找到类似的东西吗？

Shishir Mehrotra: So I mean quality and activation are a little bit different.

Shishir Mehrotra：所以我的意思是质量和激活有点不同。

I mean the Blue Loop definitely, there's actually three entry points on that diagram.

我指的是蓝色循环，实际上该图上有三个入口点。

Those people come through the Blue Loop, those people get shared through the Black Loop and those people come through the top of the funnel.

这些人来自蓝色循环，那些人通过黑色循环共享，那些人来自漏斗顶部。

There has to be like your seat population, somebody starts with blinking cursor.

必须有像您的座位人口一样的人，有人从闪烁的光标开始。

Nobody shared anything with them.

没有人与他们分享任何东西。

Either a Blue Loop, a template to document or Black Loop a way the team is running.

要么是蓝色循环（记录模板），要么是黑色循环（团队运行方式）。

If you look at activation, retention, so on, certainly the highest is the black share.

如果你看活跃度、留存率等，肯定是黑色份额最高。

Somebody shares the document and says, "Hey, this is how we're running the staff meeting." You're just going to use it.

有人分享了这份文件并说道：“嘿，这就是我们召开员工会议的方式。”你只是要使用它。

So the job or retention there is a all different, and actually one thing that is...

因此，那里的工作或保留是完全不同的，实际上是一件事......

Actually, let me come back to that evolution.

事实上，让我回到这一演变。

Second best is through the blue loop and then the third, the worst, the hardest is activating through the very top.

第二好的是通过蓝色循环，然后第三、最差、最难的是通过最顶部激活。

And from there, roughly one in five people make it to what we think of as our activation moment, which is hard.

从那时起，大约五分之一的人会到达我们认为的激活时刻，这很难。

Shishir Mehrotra: It's like you're going to hand somebody a new product that they didn't start with a problem on and nobody handed them a document to say, "Just work in." That's hard now.

Shishir Mehrotra：这就像你要给某人一个新产品，他们一开始并没有遇到问题，也没有人给他们一份文件说：“只要工作就可以了。”现在很难了。

Now all our flows are really important and so on.

现在我们所有的流量都非常重要等等。

But if you think about these three different dynamics from how you asked about how you struck your team, they're incredibly different mindsets.

但如果你从你询问你如何打击你的团队的方式来思考这三种不同的动力，你会发现它们是非常不同的心态。

Because coming to the top of that diagram, we get to own the conversation.

因为到达该图的顶部，我们就可以掌控对话。

We have our opportunity to tell you what the product's about, what you should do with it, here's the minimal set of things you need to know in order to be productive and gradually reveal the other things that you might need to know, meaning the order of those things wrong, real trouble.

我们有机会告诉您该产品的用途，您应该用它做什么，这是您需要知道的最基本的事情，以便提高工作效率，并逐渐揭示您可能需要知道的其他事情，这意味着这些事情的顺序错误，真正的麻烦。

But it's actually a minority of how people get exposed to Coda because in the black loop, the person who owns that conversation, the person sharing the document with you.

但实际上，这只是人们接触 Coda 的一小部分原因，因为在黑色循环中，拥有该对话的人、与您共享文档的人。

If that person does it and mispositions it or doesn't just makes a crappy document or so we have to help them onboard their users, which become our users.

如果那个人这样做了并且放错了位置，或者不只是制作了一个蹩脚的文档，那么我们必须帮助他们吸引他们的用户，这些用户将成为我们的用户。

Shishir Mehrotra: Same thing in the Blue Loop, that conversation is now owned by the publisher.

Shishir Mehrotra：在 Blue Loop 中也是如此，该对话现在归出版商所有。

They're really not that interested in teaching anybody about Coda.

他们真的没有兴趣教任何人 Coda。

They're mostly interested in here's this really cool way to do Orange Theory, or here's this interesting way to run a meeting.

他们最感兴趣的是这种进行橙色理论的非常酷的方式，或者这是一种有趣的召开会议的方式。

And so, one of the interesting things about building platforms, which I think is a little bit different than products that get to be direct.

因此，构建平台的有趣之处之一是，我认为这与直接的产品有点不同。

For better or worse, most of the products I've gotten to work on are platform products.

无论好坏，我所从事的大多数产品都是平台产品。

And I find that there's two very different kinds of people that like that challenge.

我发现有两种截然不同的人喜欢这种挑战。

So some people, and I think Steve Jobs was the quintessential example, if he didn't really like being a platform, the iPhone ship without an app store, they locked down the screws on the back on all the devices that nobody could open them.

所以有些人，我认为史蒂夫·乔布斯就是一个典型的例子，如果他真的不喜欢成为一个平台，iPhone 出厂时没有应用程序商店，他们就会把所有设备背面的螺丝锁紧，没人能打开它们。

And his viewpoint was, " I'm going to control every element of what my users see." And on...

他的观点是，“我将控制用户看到的每一个元素。”还有……

Shishir Mehrotra: I'm going to control every element of what my users see.

Shishir Mehrotra：我将控制用户看到的每一个元素。

And on the other hand, platform thinkers, you sort of assume that my connection to my eventual user is through someone else.

另一方面，平台思考者，你有点假设我与最终用户的联系是通过其他人实现的。

Like YouTube, regularly they come to work at YouTube and somebody would say, "Well, here's what happened last night." And sometimes it's heartwarming, like, oh, my gosh, this kid bit this other kid's finger and it took off like crazy and this Korean pop star just broke through the billion view mark before everybody else did.

就像 YouTube 一样，他们经常来 YouTube 工作，有人会说：“好吧，这就是昨晚发生的事情。”有时它很温暖，就像，哦，天哪，这个孩子咬了另一个孩子的手指，然后它就疯狂地起飞了，而这位韩国流行歌星刚刚在其他人之前突破了十亿次观看大关。

And sometimes it was not heartwarming and you don't get to control that because that's part of being a platform.

有时它并不温暖人心，你无法控制它，因为这是平台的一部分。

Shishir Mehrotra: And so it does change how you think about the way you run the team because if you have a loop where your community ecosystem users on control that narrative, then you have to incorporate that.

Shishir Mehrotra：所以它确实改变了你对团队管理方式的看法，因为如果你有一个循环，让你的社区生态系统用户控制这种叙述，那么你必须将其纳入其中。

Another close analogy I think is Airbnb and the famous story of them taking pictures of people's apartments.

我认为另一个类似的类比是 Airbnb 和他们为人们的公寓拍照的著名故事。

It's like they had to reach out and try to control that and eventually you can't do that.

就好像他们必须伸出援手并试图控制它，但最终你却做不到。

You had to sit back and let people market their hotels.

你必须坐下来让人们推销他们的酒店。

And thankfully the ecosystem got good at it, but they kind of had a similar dynamic, I think.

值得庆幸的是，生态系统在这方面做得很好，但我认为它们也有类似的动态。

Lenny Rachitsky: Absolutely.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：当然。

With Airbnb, pricing is even more of a challenge where a lot of hosts don't really know what to price.

对于 Airbnb，定价更是一个挑战，因为很多房东并不真正知道如何定价。

They think their place is worth a lot more and we can't tell them the price.

他们认为他们的房子更值钱，但我们不能告诉他们价格。

There's laws around that.

对此有法律规定。

And so it's like, hey, maybe you want to price it at this rate if you know what's good for you.

所以这就好像，嘿，如果你知道什么对你有好处，也许你想按这个价格定价。

So it's a lot of encouraging.

所以这非常令人鼓舞。

So yeah, I've seen that in action.

是的，我已经看到了这一点。

So you talked about teams and how you think about structuring them a bit and that's a good segue to our second topic, which is around a book that I hear you're writing called The Rituals of Great Teams.

所以你谈到了团队以及你如何思考如何构建它们，这是我们第二个主题的一个很好的延续，第二个主题围绕着我听说你正在写的一本名为《伟大团队的仪式》的书。

Lenny Rachitsky: And I think what you're doing there is exploring rituals that have emerged at some of the more successful companies.

Lenny Rachitsky：我认为你们正在做的是探索一些更成功的公司中出现的仪式。

And so just a question there, one, how'd you get interested in rituals, so much so that you decided to write a book, which is such a trudge and endless amount of work?

所以只有一个问题，一个，你是如何对仪式产生兴趣的，以至于你决定写一本书，这是一次艰苦的跋涉和无穷无尽的工作？

And just yeah, where is it at, how's it going?

是的，它在哪里，进展如何？

And then I'll ask you a few more questions there.

然后我会再问你几个问题。

Shishir Mehrotra: The writing a book, so I'm writing this book, it's called Rituals of Great Teams.

Shishir Mehrotra：写一本书，所以我正在写这本书，它的名字叫《伟大团队的仪式》。

And when I signed up to do it, I thought it was going to take six months.

当我报名参加这件事时，我以为这需要六个月的时间。

I'm now almost two years in my manuscript in four months and I am probably half done.

现在，我的手稿在四个月内完成了将近两年，我可能已经完成了一半。

So there's a lot of work ahead of us in building, but it's one of the most fun projects I've ever done.

因此，我们还有很多工作要做，但这是我做过的最有趣的项目之一。

So the history behind this was, as in many cases, is a lot of sort of odd luck and happenstance.

因此，正如在许多情况下一样，这背后的历史充满了奇怪的运气和偶然。

I got hosted right at the start of the pandemic.

我在大流行刚开始时就受到接待。

I was interviewed for a different podcast called Masters of Scale by Reid Hoffman.

我接受了 Reid Hoffman 的一个名为“规模大师”的不同播客的采访。

And the way Reid records, which I'm not sure I would recommend this, but he does it a little bit differently than you do.

还有里德的录音方式，我不确定我是否会推荐这种方式，但他的做法与你略有不同。

You sit down with no idea what you're going to talk about and you talk for three hours.

你坐下来，不知道要说什么，就这样聊了三个小时。

Shishir Mehrotra: And then he has a group of editors, the same group that actually at its head, and they come in and they pick 20 minutes of it and they turn and one episode.

Shishir Mehrotra：然后他有一群剪辑师，实际上是他们的负责人，他们进来挑选 20 分钟的内容，然后又选择一集。

And you have no idea what it's going to be, so you talk and talk and talk and gets 20 minutes out and they're pretty good at getting to a nugget.

你不知道会发生什么，所以你一直讲啊讲啊讲，花了 20 分钟，他们非常擅长抓住要点。

So they picked out of this whole discussion this part that I thought was really small and it was Reid had asked me for one of my favorite quotes and I talked about this quote from a guy named Bing Gordon.

所以他们从整个讨论中挑出了我认为很小的部分，是里德问我最喜欢的引言之一，我谈到了一个叫宾·戈登的人的引言。

People don't know Bing.

人们不了解必应。

Bing was one of the founders of Electronic Arts.

Bing 是艺电公司的创始人之一。

He's a famous investor, Amazon, Zynga, so owns lots of great companies.

他是著名的投资者，亚马逊、Zynga，所以拥有很多伟大的公司。

And I happened to sit on a board with Bing and he used this line.

我碰巧和 Bing 一起坐在一块板上，他用了这条线。

I think Bing's one of the best non-linear thinkers in The Valley.

我认为宾是硅谷最好的非线性思想家之一。

Always learned something with Bing.

总是通过 Bing 学到一些东西。

Shishir Mehrotra: And he used this line that really stuck with me.

Shishir Mehrotra：他用的这句话让我印象深刻。

He said great companies has a very small list of golden rituals.

他说，伟大的公司只有很少的黄金仪式。

And there are three rules of golden rituals.

而金礼有三则。

Number one, they're named.

第一，他们被命名了。

Number two, every employee knows them by their first Friday and, number three, they're templated.

第二，每个员工在第一个星期五就知道它们，第三，它们是模板化的。

And he has great examples.

他有很好的例子。

Amazon has six pagers and Google has OKRs and Salesforce has V2MOM and there's all these different rituals that people do.

亚马逊有六个寻呼机，谷歌有 OKR，Salesforce 有 V2MOM，人们会做所有这些不同的仪式。

And I ended up sharing on the podcast a little bit about what Coda's golden ritual is.

最后我在播客上分享了一些关于 Coda 黄金仪式的内容。

If you were to ask a set of Coda employees on their first Friday what Coda's golden ritual is, they would almost certainly tell you about this thing we do called Dory/Pulse.

如果你在 Coda 的第一个星期五询问一组 Coda 员工，Coda 的黄金仪式是什么，他们几乎肯定会告诉你我们所做的名为 Dory/Pulse 的事情。

It's sort of the key of how we run meetings and do write-ups and so on.

这是我们如何召开会议和撰写报告等的关键。

It's a pretty simple idea, is that in our write-ups and in our meetings, instead of going around the room and hearing what everybody thinks, we do this thing called Pulse.

这是一个非常简单的想法，就是在我们的文章和会议中，我们不是在房间里走来走去，听听每个人的想法，而是做一个叫做“脉冲”的事情。

Shishir Mehrotra: Everybody writes down what they think and we hide everybody else's until you're done writing.

Shishir Mehrotra：每个人都写下他们的想法，我们会隐藏其他人的想法，直到你写完为止。

So you force yourself to be eloquent about your opinion, on the record about it, and unbiased.

所以你强迫自己雄辩地表达你的观点，记录下来，不带偏见。

And then the second thing we do is called Dory, which is instead of randomly asking questions, we ask people to put the questions on the table and then we take a round of up quoting and down voting them to actually figure out what we're going to talk about.

然后我们做的第二件事叫做多莉（Dory），我们不是随机提出问题，而是让人们把问题摆在桌面上，然后我们进行一轮向上引用和向下投票，以真正弄清楚我们要谈论的内容。

Dory's named after the fish who asks all the questions.

多莉（Dory）以提出所有问题的鱼命名。

It's a tool we use a lot at Google that we kind of turned into this mini tool.

这是我们在 Google 经常使用的工具，我们将其变成了这个迷你工具。

If you were to ask a set of Coda employees on the first Friday about Coda's golden rituals with Bing's three tests, they'll certainly talk about Dory and Pulse.

如果您在第一个星期五向 Coda 员工询问 Coda 与 Bing 的三个测试的黄金惯例，他们肯定会谈论 Dory 和 Pulse。

And it's not because they're meeting wonks.

这并不是因为他们遇到了书呆子。

It's because it's indicative of the culture of the team.

因为它代表了团队的文化。

Shishir Mehrotra: And so I'll regularly hear employees say things like, "I just joined Coda.

Shishir Mehrotra：所以我经常听到员工说这样的话，“我刚刚加入 Coda。

It's been a week.

已经一周了。

It's amazing.

太棒了。

The culture is so open that I got to ask a question in a meeting and it outvoted the CEOs." Or they'll say, "I got asked for my contribution to this really hard decision we're making and it was thoughtfully presented.

这里的文化是如此开放，以至于我必须在会议上提出问题，结果投票结果超过了首席执行官。”或者他们会说，“有人问我对我们正在做出的这个非常艰难的决定有何贡献，而且这是经过深思熟虑的提出的。

I had space to be able to do it well without bias and it was actually read and considered as part of the decision making process." Reid's podcast did pretty well and I got all these questions about rituals and so I decided to do a dinner which turned into a dinner series.

我有足够的空间能够不带偏见地做好这件事，并且它实际上被阅读并考虑为决策过程的一部分。”里德的播客做得很好，我收到了所有关于仪式的问题，所以我决定做一顿晚餐，后来变成了晚餐系列。

And basically every third Wednesday we would host a group of people to share the rituals with each other.

基本上每个第三个星期三我们都会招待一群人互相分享仪式。

And I learned a bunch of stuff in this process.

在这个过程中我学到了很多东西。

Shishir Mehrotra: I've now interviewed over 1,000 people for this book and There's lots of really interesting rituals that come out of it, but first thing I learned is people love sharing their rituals.

Shishir Mehrotra：我现在已经为这本书采访了 1,000 多人，其中有很多非常有趣的仪式，但我首先了解到的是人们喜欢分享他们的仪式。

I've interviewed people from many companies that everybody's heard of, Nike, Disney, New York Times.

我采访过许多家喻户晓的公司的人，比如耐克、迪士尼、纽约时报。

It's all the way down to many startups that maybe people haven't heard of or companies in industries that people don't talk a lot about.

一直到许多人们可能没有听说过的初创公司或人们不常谈论的行业中的公司。

Book authors, pundits, lots of different people that have come through this process.

书籍作者、专家、许多不同的人都经历过这个过程。

Everybody loves sharing their rituals.

每个人都喜欢分享他们的仪式。

Everybody has little secrets to how they run their business, but for some reason the how we work part everybody's very willing to share.

每个人对于如何经营自己的业务都有一些小秘密，但出于某种原因，每个人都非常愿意分享我们的工作方式。

People also love hearing about them.

人们也喜欢听到他们的消息。

And I was like, "Is this going to be interesting for a dinner, geeking out about how a team works?" And it turns out not only do people like hearing about it, it's the littlest details that matter.

我当时想，“这对于晚餐来说有趣吗？研究团队如何工作？”事实证明，人们不仅喜欢听它，最重要的细节也很重要。

It's like, yeah, we kind of do that, too, but we have this issue.

就像，是的，我们也这样做，但我们有这个问题。

Shishir Mehrotra: How'd you get past this?

Shishir Mehrotra：你是怎么克服这个困难的？

And you start discovering that actually those little details are what would make or break a thing, that you can't quite do it the exact same way.

你开始发现，实际上这些小细节决定了一件事情的成败，但你不能完全以同样的方式去做。

And then the other thing I realized, which is probably the most important point, is that rituals are, I like to say that they are, a mirror of culture.

然后我意识到的另一件事，这可能是最重要的一点，是仪式，我喜欢说它们是文化的镜子。

That one of the attendees, Dharmesh Shah, founder of HubSpot and very thoughtful person, he talked a lot about this thing that is virtually presented as something called flash tags, which is a really cool example.

其中一位与会者 Dharmesh Shah，HubSpot 的创始人，非常有思想的人，他谈论了很多关于这个实际上以 Flash 标签的形式呈现的东西，这是一个非常酷的例子。

But Dharmesh talked about how when we're building companies, we actually build two products.

但 Dharmesh 谈到了当我们创建公司时，我们实际上是如何构建两种产品的。

We build one for our customers and we build another one for our employees.

我们为客户打造一套，为员工打造另一套。

That's actually how we work part of it.

这实际上就是我们工作的一部分。

That's the term he uses for that, is culture.

他用的这个词就是文化。

That's the product we build for our employees.

这就是我们为员工打造的产品。

Shishir Mehrotra: I think it's a very interesting way to define what culture is.

Shishir Mehrotra：我认为这是定义文化的一种非常有趣的方式。

Interestingly, when you ask people about their culture, hey, what's the culture of Google, or Airbnb, or so on, the way they'll answer the question is through rituals.

有趣的是，当你问人们他们的文化时，嘿，谷歌或爱彼迎等公司的文化是什么，他们回答问题的方式是通过仪式。

They'll say here's what we do and the way you know this is what we do is through this ritual that's in place.

他们会说这就是我们所做的，而你知道这就是我们所做的就是通过这种现有的仪式。

So I thought that was pretty interesting.

所以我觉得这很有趣。

Started off just building a little listicle of here's all the great rituals and then I started realizing that actually the comparison between them is kind of interesting.

一开始只是构建了一个小清单，其中列出了所有伟大的仪式，然后我开始意识到实际上它们之间的比较很有趣。

And so I started sort of filling in the gaps between them of like when would you do X versus Y and what did I learn through that process?

所以我开始填补它们之间的空白，比如你什么时候做 X 与 Y 以及我通过这个过程学到了什么？

Publisher asked if I would turn it into a book and I agreed without really contemplating how hard it would be.

出版商问我是否愿意把它变成一本书，我同意了，但没有真正考虑这会有多困难。

And it's become what most of my evenings end up being on this.

这成了我大部分晚上的生活。

Shishir Mehrotra: I have a wonderful co-writer, Erin Dame, who's incredibly gracious with her time and helping me sort through the best ideas and the worst ideas, but it's a really fun project.

Shishir Mehrotra：我有一位出色的合著者，Erin Dame，她非常慷慨地花费时间，帮助我整理最好的想法和最差的想法，但这是一个非常有趣的项目。

Lenny Rachitsky: What are some of the more wacky and/or impactful rituals that you've come across that you can share?

Lenny Rachitsky：您遇到过哪些比较古怪和/或有影响力的仪式可以分享？

Shishir Mehrotra: Boy.

希希尔·梅赫罗特拉：男孩。

I'd sort it down the list.

我会把它按清单排序。

I'll tell you some that are interesting and recognizable.

我会告诉你一些有趣且可识别的。

One of the most fun ones is from Arianna Huffington and she shared a ritual called Reset.

其中最有趣的一个来自阿里安娜·赫芬顿（Arianna Huffington），她分享了一个名为“重置”的仪式。

And there's a bit of background on Arianna, she's well known for Huffington Post.

还有一些关于阿里安娜的背景，她因《赫芬顿邮报》而闻名。

She now runs Thrive.

她现在经营Thrive。

She had an accident a few years back and ended up going through a period of doing a lot of research on how the brain works and ended up coming to this set of conclusions about how you can affect your own brain chemistry.

几年前，她发生了一场事故，随后她花了一段时间对大脑如何工作进行了大量研究，并最终得出了一系列关于如何影响自己大脑化学物质的结论。

And one of the things she does as a sort of personal ritual is I think called a reset.

我认为她作为一种个人仪式所做的事情之一就是重置。

Shishir Mehrotra: It's basically the ritual is you make a one minute video that is personal.

Shishir Mehrotra：这基本上是一个仪式，你制作一个一分钟的个人视频。

And they have a little template for doing it, but it's a breathing exercise.

他们有一个小模板可以做到这一点，但这是一个呼吸练习。

It's like you are supposed to play it while you do this breathing exercise, but it's personal.

就像你应该在进行呼吸练习时演奏它一样，但这是个人的。

So it's like her video, you go search YouTube for Arianna's reset, you'll find it.

就像她的视频一样，你去 YouTube 上搜索 Arianna 的重置，你就会找到它。

It has pictures of her kids, it has quotes she loves, it has videos of her hometown in Greece and so on, but the way she brought it to the team was they start meetings by randomly picking someone.

其中有她孩子的照片，有她喜欢的名言，有她希腊家乡的视频等等，但她将这些内容带到团队的方式是他们通过随机挑选一个人来开始会议。

They call it spin the wheel.

他们称之为旋转轮子。

They randomly pick someone and they play their reset.

他们随机挑选一个人并进行重置。

And the idea is you get this two for one where everybody gets a little bit the brain chemistry rewiring of 60 second breathing exercise.

这个想法是，你可以得到这个二合一的效果，每个人都可以通过 60 秒的呼吸练习来重新调整大脑的化学成分。

Everybody gets back into that sort of zen state a little bit and you learn a little bit about each other.

每个人都会稍微回到那种禅宗状态，你们也会对彼此有一些了解。

Shishir Mehrotra: And she was saying that the pictures people pick and so are interesting, but actually the music people pick is probably the most interesting.

Shishir Mehrotra：她说人们挑选的图片等很有趣，但实际上人们挑选的音乐可能是最有趣的。

A lot of people pick calm music, some people will pick something they rock out to, but everybody does their reset a little bit differently.

很多人会选择平静的音乐，有些人会选择一些他们摇滚的音乐，但每个人的重置方式都略有不同。

So that was a really fun one.

所以那是一件非常有趣的事情。

Another really fun one that I was surprised by, Gusto does this thing in their hiring calls.

另一个非常有趣的事情让我感到惊讶，Gusto 在他们的招聘电话中做了这件事。

So you get an offer from Gusto and apparently when you get on the offer call of congratulations, you got an offer, instead of just meeting the recruiter, which is what most companies do, they have the entire group of people that interviewed you join the call and they all say something about why you're amazing and you should join Gusto.

所以你收到了 Gusto 的录用通知，显然，当你接到恭喜的录用电话时，你就得到了录用通知，而不是像大多数公司那样只见招聘人员，他们让面试你的整个团队都加入电话会议，他们都会说为什么你很出色，你应该加入 Gusto。

Shishir Mehrotra: And it's such an interesting ritual in so many ways.

Shishir Mehrotra：从很多方面来说，这都是一个非常有趣的仪式。

For the candidate, obviously what an amazing experience.

对于候选人来说，显然是一次多么奇妙的经历。

To use an Airbnb term, that's like a level 11 experience of what that feels like, but also for the company.

用 Airbnb 的术语来说，这就像 11 级体验，而且对于公司来说也是如此。

One of the questions I get asked, "What if I voted no?

我被问到的问题之一是：“如果我投反对票怎么办？

What if I'd said this person is a no hire?" And I said, "It doesn't matter.

如果我说这个人不被雇用怎么办？”我说：“没关系。

You're on the call, you're going to work with this person, you're going to help them feel welcome and you're going to help them understand where they stand." I think it obviously takes a bunch of time, but it also is a signal to the company of how important hiring is and something that obviously we all prioritize.

你正在接听电话，你将与这个人一起工作，你将帮助他们感到受欢迎，你将帮助他们了解他们的立场。”我认为这显然需要大量时间，但这也向公司发出了一个信号，表明招聘是多么重要，而且显然是我们都优先考虑的事情。

Those are maybe a couple of the maybe different ones that people might not have heard of before.

这些可能是人们以前可能没有听说过的一些不同的。

Lenny Rachitsky: Those are amazing examples.

Lenny Rachitsky：这些都是很棒的例子。

Have you integrated any of these rituals from other companies doing this research into Coda?

您是否将进行这项研究的其他公司的这些仪式整合到 Coda 中？

Shishir Mehrotra: All the time and it's the cheapest form of research.

Shishir Mehrotra：一直以来，这是最便宜的研究形式。

I mean, I get to borrow all these great ideas from all these companies.

我的意思是，我可以从所有这些公司借用所有这些伟大的想法。

We just added one to our decision making process.

我们刚刚在决策过程中添加了一项。

This is a good example of a little detail that really matters, is Coinbase has a ritual that's formed around ...

这是一个很好的例子，说明了一个真正重要的小细节，Coinbase 有一个围绕......形成的仪式。

This is a decision-making ritual they call ...

这是他们称之为的决策仪式......

It's actually amazing how many companies have a decision-making ritual with a name, with a bur.

事实上，令人惊奇的是，有多少公司都有一个有名字、有核心的决策仪式。

So at Square, Vocal called them Spades.

所以在 Square，Vocal 称他们为黑桃。

He kind of verbified it.

他用动词表达了它。

There's a template, but you use Bing's three tenants.

有一个模板，但您使用 Bing 的三个租户。

It's got to be named, every employee knows it by the first Friday and it's templated.

它必须被命名，每个员工在第一个星期五就知道它并且它是模板化的。

Shishir Mehrotra: So Coinbase does a thing they call rapids and rapid is a framing around what the roles in it are, the responsible approver, participating, informed and decider, but their technique of doing it was really interesting.

Shishir Mehrotra：所以 Coinbase 做了一件他们称之为急流的事情，快速是围绕其中的角色进行框架，负责批准者、参与者、知情者和决策者，但他们这样做的技术非常有趣。

They have this subtle nudge thing that we weren't doing that I've now incorporated at Coda.

他们有这种我们没有做的微妙的推动作用，我现在已经将其纳入了 Coda。

So at Coda we have Dory and Pulse, like a very common ritual.

所以在 Coda，我们有 Dory 和 Pulse，就像一个非常常见的仪式。

It spread through a lot of different companies that use Coda.

它在许多使用 Coda 的不同公司中传播。

You don't really have to use Coda to do it, but I think Coda is pretty good at it.

你实际上不必使用 Coda 来做到这一点，但我认为 Coda 非常擅长。

But one of the things we were facing was that you would do this pulse and so you'd have a meeting.

但我们面临的一件事是，你会做这个脉冲，所以你会开一个会议。

And if you did it wrong, it could feel like voting and it could feel like consensus building.

如果你做错了，这可能就像投票，也可能像是建立共识。

Shishir Mehrotra: And so we would get this, people would talk about it and every ritual has its pro and con, but people would look at it and say very open culture, you're allowed to share whatever you want.

Shishir Mehrotra：所以我们会得到这个，人们会谈论它，每个仪式都有其优点和缺点，但人们会看着它并说非常开放的文化，你可以分享任何你想要的东西。

But on the other side for the person that's trying to make a decision, it can feel like, oh, my God, I now have 30 pieces of feedback.

但另一方面，对于试图做出决定的人来说，可能会感觉，哦，天哪，我现在有 30 条反馈。

Am I supposed to wait for all 30 of them to be yes?

我应该等 30 个人都同意吗？

Am I supposed to wait for it to be a majority and how do I know?

我是否应该等待获得多数票，我怎么知道？

What am I supposed to do here?

我应该在这里做什么？

And so Coinbase had this really simple idea that we sort of smushed together, which was at the top of their rapids they named who all the people were and then next to each one they put a little box that said what is the decision from that person?

所以 Coinbase 有一个非常简单的想法，我们有点挤在一起，在他们的急流顶部，他们命名了所有人是谁，然后在每个人旁边放了一个小盒子，上面写着那个人的决定是什么？

Shishir Mehrotra: They just organized.

Shishir Mehrotra：他们刚刚组织起来。

It's very similar to Pulse, but they kind of organized them and said everybody that's in the inform bucket, they can comment, that's totally fine, but we really care about the approvers, the responsible and then of course the decider, the one that really matters.

它与 Pulse 非常相似，但他们对它们进行了组织，并表示通知桶中的每个人都可以发表评论，这完全没问题，但我们真正关心的是审批者、负责人，当然还有决策者，真正重要的人。

And so we just added a column to our Pulse, which is what is the role?

那么我们就在我们的Pulse中添加了一个栏目，它的作用是什么？

And we grouped the table by that.

我们以此对表格进行分组。

And the other thing that Coinbase does, which it sounds really subtle and small, but really in detail it really matters, is the person running the meeting pre-fills that with what they want from that person.

Coinbase 所做的另一件事，听起来非常微妙和小，但实际上在细节上确实很重要，那就是主持会议的人预先填写了他们想要从该人那里得到的东西。

You are an approver.

您是批准者。

Maybe I have three approvers because I have a budget approver and I have a marketing approver and I have a sales approver, whatever it might be, and I need you to give me this answer.

也许我有三个审批者，因为我有一个预算审批者、一个营销审批者和一个销售审批者，无论是什么，我需要你给我这个答案。

I don't need you to comment on everything I'm doing, but I need you to tell me do we have the budget or not?

我不需要你对我所做的一切发表评论，但我需要你告诉我我们有没有预算？

Shishir Mehrotra: Or I need you to tell me am I authorized to make this change in this part of the product that we generally don't change, or can I change the onboarding flow, or whatever it might be?

Shishir Mehrotra：或者我需要你告诉我我是否有权对我们通常不会更改的产品这部分进行更改，或者我可以更改入门流程，或者其他任何可能的内容吗？

And we took a process that I think was doing a pretty good job of getting rid of groupthink, which is really the heart of what we were doing with Pulse, but had this danger of being overly leaning towards consensus building to a fault.

我们采取了一个流程，我认为在消除群体思维方面做得很好，这确实是我们在 Pulse 上所做的事情的核心，但也存在过度倾向于建立共识的危险。

I think consensus building is a good thing, but consensus building to a fault is not.

我认为达​​成共识是一件好事，但达成共识就不是一件好事了。

And we sort of stole this one from Coinbase and we switched it in and it got better.

我们从 Coinbase 偷了这个，然后把它换了进去，结果变得更好了。

And that's a good example very recently.

这是最近的一个很好的例子。

Lenny Rachitsky: I feel like you have a clear bestseller on your hands here and I can't wait to read this.

Lenny Rachitsky：我觉得你手上有一本明确的畅销书，我迫不及待地想读这本书。

I almost feel like you have an unfair advantage right now having all these insights before you share them, being able to execute so much more efficiently.

我几乎觉得你现在拥有不公平的优势，在分享之前就拥有了所有这些见解，能够更有效地执行。

Shishir Mehrotra: Well, yeah, it's interesting.

Shishir Mehrotra：嗯，是的，这很有趣。

I'm obviously not trying to keep any of it a secret, so the whole point of publishing it is because I think other people will enjoy it and can get benefit out of it.

显然我并不想保守其中的任何秘密，所以发布它的全部意义是因为我认为其他人会喜欢它并可以从中受益。

But if people are interested, one of the other choices I made in writing this book is I decided to do it somewhat in the open.

但如果人们感兴趣的话，我在写这本书时所做的其他选择之一就是我决定以公开的方式进行。

So there's what I call the rituals of great teams brain trust.

这就是我所说的伟大团队的“智囊团仪式”。

And so if you just search for me and Rituals of Great Teams, you'll find it.

因此，如果您搜索我和伟大团队的仪式，您就会找到它。

And I'm sure we can add the link to the show notes, but you can sign up.

我确信我们可以将链接添加到演出注释中，但您可以注册。

And basically, as I finish a chapter, I put it out to the group and there's now a few hundred people that are helping me co-edit this thing.

基本上，当我完成一章时，我把它发布给小组，现在有几百人正在帮助我共同编辑这个东西。

Shishir Mehrotra: Some of them just because some of them come in and give me help on storytelling, grammar, so on, but a lot of them are contributing where they show up and they say, "Hey, you missed this one.

Shishir Mehrotra：其中一些人只是因为他们中的一些人进来给我讲故事、语法等方面的帮助，但他们中的很多人在他们出现的地方做出了贡献，他们说：“嘿，你错过了这个。

We actually do that, but we do this other thing a little bit differently and you should really talk about that." Because I kind of view it as it started as a dinner series.

我们实际上是这样做的，但我们做另一件事的方式有点不同，你真的应该谈谈这一点。”因为我认为它是从晚餐系列开始的。

It started with everybody's going to give to each other.

它始于每个人都会互相给予。

And so I kind of wanted to bring that into the writing process.

所以我有点想把它带入写作过程中。

It's also a cheap way to get some pretty good editors and it pretty helpful.

这也是获得一些优秀编辑的廉价方法，而且非常有帮助。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love that.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢这个。

That is really smart.

这真的很聪明。

This episode is brought to you by Eppo.

本集由 Eppo 为您带来。

Eppo is a next generation AB testing platform built by Airbnb alums for modern growth teams.

Eppo 是 Airbnb 校友为现代增长团队打造的下一代 AB 测试平台。

Companies like Netlify, Contentful and Cameo rely on Eppo to power their experiments.

Netlify、Contentful 和 Cameo 等公司依靠 Eppo 来支持他们的实验。

Wherever you work, running experiments is increasingly essential, but there are no commercial tools that integrate with a modern grow team stack.

无论您在哪里工作，运行实验都变得越来越重要，但是没有可以与现代种植团队堆栈集成的商业工具。

This leads to wasted time building internal tools or trying to run your experiments through a clunky marketing tool.

这会导致浪费时间构建内部工具或尝试通过笨重的营销工具进行实验。

When I was at Airbnb, one of the things that I loved about our experimentation platform was being able to easily slice results by device, by country and by user stage.

当我在 Airbnb 工作时，我喜欢我们的实验平台的一件事是能够轻松地按设备、国家和用户阶段划分结果。

Eppo does all that and more, delivering results quickly, avoiding annoying prolonged analytic cycles and helping you easily get to the root cause of any issue you discover.

Eppo 不仅可以做到这一切，还可以快速提供结果，避免烦人的长时间分析周期，并帮助您轻松找到所发现问题的根本原因。

Lenny Rachitsky: Eppo lets you go beyond basic click-through metrics and instead use your north star metrics like activation, retention, subscriptions and payments.

Lenny Rachitsky：Eppo 可以让您超越基本的点击率指标，而是使用激活、保留、订阅和付款等北极星指标。

And Eppo supports tests on the front end, the backend, email marketing and even machine learning clients.

Eppo 支持前端、后端、电子邮件营销甚至机器学习客户端的测试。

Check out Eppo at geteppo.com, get E-P-P-O.com and 10X your experiment velocity.

在 geteppo.com 上查看 Eppo，获取 E-P-P-O.com 并获得 10 倍的实验速度。

Lenny Rachitsky: And How have you found these rituals form for someone that's listening and are like, "We need some rituals, we need to move more effectively." How do these come up?

Lenny Rachitsky：你是如何发现这些仪式是为那些正在倾听的人而形成的，比如“我们需要一些仪式，我们需要更有效地行动。”这些是怎么出现的呢？

Are they just organically organized?

它们只是有机地组织起来的吗？

Do they come in from other and they evolve?

它们是从其他事物而来并进化而来的吗？

Is it founder driven?

是创始人驱动的吗？

What have you found so far?

到目前为止你发现了什么？

I know you're still working on the book, but curious.

我知道你仍在写这本书，但很好奇。

Shishir Mehrotra: There's a whole section of the book on ...

Shishir Mehrotra：这本书有一整个部分是关于......

I get this question a lot of how do I find the rituals we have?

我经常被问到这个问题：如何找到我们的仪式？

How do I adjust the rituals to match?

我如何调整仪式以匹配？

Are they supposed to change?

他们应该改变吗？

There's lots of things you see because some rituals are great when you're 100 people and they're terrible when you're 1,000.

你会看到很多东西，因为有些仪式在 100 个人的时候是很棒的，而在 1000 个人的时候就很糟糕了。

And you should actively change those things.

你应该积极改变这些事情。

Some are great in what sometimes people call peacetime versus wartime.

有些在人们有时所说的和平时期与战时都很出色。

You should do this during this time, but you should actively not do it when you're in this other time.

你应该在这段时间这样做，但在其他时间你不应该主动这样做。

And actually, that in itself is a ritual.

事实上，这本身就是一种仪式。

I mean, every company has some form of a war room ritual that is ...

我的意思是，每家公司都有某种形式的作战室仪式，那就是……

I guess Facebook I was learning.

我想我正在学习Facebook。

We did a dinner last night, so I learned a little bit about it.

昨晚我们吃了晚饭，所以我了解了一些。

Facebook apparently calls them lockdowns, which is a term I hadn't heard before, but apparently it's well understood.

Facebook 显然将其称为“封锁”，这是我以前从未听说过的术语，但显然它很好理解。

When they say lockdown, everybody knows exactly what it means.

当他们说“封锁”时，每个人都知道这意味着什么。

Shishir Mehrotra: It's like we no longer do the goal setting process, you drop this type of work and everybody just knows this is what it means.

Shishir Mehrotra：这就像我们不再进行目标设定过程，你放弃这种类型的工作，每个人都知道这是什么意思。

But I would say that when we talk to people about rituals, a set of rituals that happen organically.

但我想说，当我们与人们谈论仪式时，一系列有机发生的仪式。

I mean, those are the easiest.

我的意思是，这些是最简单的。

Dory and Pulse for us was one of the product managers running a meeting just thought it was we're a distributed first culture, but hadn't really adapted to it properly.

Dory 和 Pulse 对我们来说是一位产品经理，召开了一次会议，他们只是认为我们是分布式第一文化，但并没有真正正确地适应它。

And this product manager is just annoyed at waiting around on Zoom for everybody to go around and say their piece and it just took forever.

这位产品经理对在 Zoom 上等待每个人都发表自己的观点感到恼火，而这花了很长时间。

And by the end everybody's like, "Can we just pause?

到最后每个人都会说：“我们可以暂停一下吗？

Everybody just write down what you think." And he just happened to do it in this thoughtful way and it just took off.

每个人都写下你的想法。”他碰巧以这种深思熟虑的方式做到了这一点，结果就开始了。

And so some rituals grow organically and you just got to wait for them to do it.

因此，有些仪式是有机发展的，你只需等待它们发生即可。

Shishir Mehrotra: But there are cases where companies actively form a ritual to drive a certain behavior.

Shishir Mehrotra：但在某些情况下，公司会积极形成一种仪式来推动某种行为。

And the best advice I've given on this topic is to read one of my other favorite books.

关于这个主题我给出的最好建议是阅读我最喜欢的其他书籍之一。

It's a book called Switch.

这是一本叫《Switch》的书。

It's by Chip and Dan Heath.

这是奇普·希思和丹·希思的作品。

All their books are amazing, but they also wrote Decisive and Made to Stick and Moments and so on.

他们所有的书都很棒，但他们也写了《Decisive》、《Made to Stick》和《Moments》等等。

But this one is, if I could recommend five books, this would take two slots on the list.

但这本书是，如果我可以推荐五本书，这将在清单上占据两个位置。

And the subtitle of the book is How to Change Things When Change is Hard.

这本书的副标题是“当改变困难时如何改变事情”。

And the basic idea of the book is they use this analogy of a writer on an elephant on a path.

这本书的基本思想是他们使用作家骑着大象在路上的比喻。

And when you're trying to change things, you have three options for what you can do and it actually kind of maps to Bing's analogy.

当你试图改变事情时，你有三种选择可以做什么，这实际上有点类似于 Bing 的类比。

So you can direct the writer, so you can tell people what to do.

这样你就可以指导作者，这样你就可以告诉人们该怎么做。

Shishir Mehrotra: You can motivate the elephant, so you can give this thing a kick in the butt and it's going to move.

Shishir Mehrotra：你可以激励大象，所以你可以踢它的屁股，它就会移动。

You don't know exactly where it's going to move, but it's going to move.

你不知道它到底会移动到哪里，但它会移动。

And you can shape the path.

你可以塑造道路。

Shape the path is I'm going to set this way up so that you can only do these things.

塑造路径是我要这样设置，这样你就只能做这些事情。

The way I think about it is direct the writer, tell people what to do.

我的想法是直接作者，告诉人们该怎么做。

That's why if you look at Bing's tests, that's why you teach employees this before the first writing.

这就是为什么如果你查看 Bing 的测试，你就会在第一次写作之前教员工这一点。

You tell people this is what we do.

你告诉人们这就是我们所做的。

And so some rituals, how do you get this ritual to work?

那么有些仪式，你如何让这个仪式发挥作用呢？

You put it in your new hire onboarding and you make it work that way.

你把它放在新员工入职培训中，然后让它发挥作用。

Motivate the elephant, a lot of that's about branding.

激励大象，其中很多都与品牌有关。

So what do you do with rituals?

那么你用仪式做什么呢？

It's an amazing number of rituals where I'll tell people that seems like a great ritual.

这是数量惊人的仪式，我会告诉人们这似乎是一个很棒的仪式。

Shishir Mehrotra: I would highly encourage you to give it a name.

Shishir Mehrotra：我强烈建议您给它起一个名字。

Give it something that lets people anchor ideas to.

给它一些可以让人们锚定想法的东西。

Names a very powerful thing.

命名一个非常强大的东西。

If I said, "Yeah, at Coda we do voting and sentiment writing or something," I don't even know what you would say.

如果我说，“是的，在 Coda，我们做投票和情感写作之类的”，我什至不知道你会说什么。

It would sound boring.

听起来很无聊。

It wouldn't sound like something you could brag about, something you could form identity around.

这听起来不像是你可以吹嘘的东西，也不是你可以围绕它形成身份的东西。

And so it's very important to give it a name.

所以给它起一个名字非常重要。

And then finally, why do you shape the path or you set things up?

最后，你为什么要塑造道路或设置事物？

You templatize, make it as easy as possible to follow this ritual.

你将其模板化，使其尽可能容易地遵循这个仪式。

And make it just a part of what we do enough, then if you're at Gusto and you're like, "I don't really understand that hiring cult thing," where it's like guess what?

让它成为我们所做的足够多的事情的一部分，然后如果你在 Gusto 并且你会说，“我真的不明白招聘狂热的事情”，你猜怎么着？

You're going to be invited to one soon.

很快你就会被邀请参加其中的一个活动。

Shishir Mehrotra: You're going to see it and then you're going to have to do it.

Shishir Mehrotra：你会看到它，然后你就必须这样做。

Or if you're at Square, you're going to see the spade template and you're going to learn how to do it.

或者，如果您在 Square，您将看到黑桃模板，并且将学习如何操作。

So I think Switch is ...

所以我认为 Switch...

I recommend this book for lots of purposes, but as you're thinking about rituals for your teams, it's a particularly relevant frame.

我推荐这本书有很多目的，但当你在考虑团队的仪式时，它是一个特别相关的框架。

Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

By the way, that's a little plug for the YouTube version of this podcast, which is now a thing we do.

顺便说一句，这是该播客 YouTube 版本的一个小插件，我们现在正在做这件事。

So if you're like, hey, I don't see what you're talking about, just search for Lenny's podcast, YouTube, and I think you'll find it and we'll probably link to the ad in the show notes.

因此，如果您想，嘿，我不明白您在说什么，只需搜索 Lenny 的播客 YouTube，我想您会找到它，我们可能会链接到节目注释中的广告。

I'm also reminded of Airbnb's rituals, which you probably already know about, but they're kind of all hilarious and weird.

我还想起了 Airbnb 的仪式，你可能已经知道了，但它们有点搞笑又奇怪。

One is formal Friday, where people dress up in suits and gowns on Fridays.

第一个是正式的星期五，人们在星期五穿着西装和长袍。

Another is a human tunnel for all new employees, where every new employee has to run through a human tunnel and jump into a beanbag or something.

另一个是为所有新员工提供的人体隧道，每个新员工都必须跑过人体隧道并跳进豆袋或其他东西中。

And then there's a new hire tea time, where new hires drink some tea with some veterans and chat about where they're from and things like that.

然后是新员工茶时间，新员工和一些老员工喝茶，聊聊他们来自哪里之类的事情。

There's a bunch more, but those are the ones that are my favorite.

还有很多，但这些是我最喜欢的。

Shishir Mehrotra: Those are great.

Shishir Mehrotra：这些都很棒。

I also included some of the level 11 thinking as well.

我还包括了一些 11 级的思考。

I think that's also a good Chesky favorite.

我认为这也是切斯基最喜欢的。

Brian also has another one that's in the book that's about how to rank your to-do list by finding leverage.

布莱恩在书中还写了另一篇文章，内容是关于如何通过寻找杠杆作用对待办事项列表进行排名。

That's a really fun one as well.

这也是一件非常有趣的事情。

They're like don't rank your to-do list, but a lot of people do importance versus urgency or so on.

他们就像不对你的待办事项列表进行排名，但很多人会优先考虑重要性和紧迫性等等。

And I guess he sorts his by which of these is most likely to create leverage of getting rid of the rest of my lists, which I thought was very ...

我猜他会根据其中哪一个最有可能创造摆脱我其余列表的杠杆作用，我认为这非常......

I started doing that in my to- do list and it's very interesting and impactful.

我开始在我的待办事项清单中这样做，它非常有趣且有影响力。

Lenny Rachitsky: That's actually an incredible segue ...

Lenny Rachitsky：这实际上是一个令人难以置信的延续......

Shishir Mehrotra: ...

希希尔·梅赫罗特拉：...

you listen, it's very interesting and impactful.

你听着，这很有趣，也很有影响力。

Lenny Rachitsky: That's actually an incredible segue to our next topic, which are eigenquestions.

Lenny Rachitsky：这实际上是我们下一个主题的令人难以置信的延续，即特征问题。

Lenny Rachitsky: And so eigenquestions, one of your most classic posts, you mentioned this at the top, maybe your one of the most liked posts, other than maybe bundling.

Lenny Rachitsky：所以特征问题，你最经典的帖子之一，你在顶部提到了这一点，也许是你最受欢迎的帖子之一，除了捆绑之外。

It sounds like some kind of German game show, eigenquestions.

这听起来像是某种德国游戏节目，特征问题。

Can you tell us what eigenquestions are, and then I'm going to ask you a few more questions around that?

你能告诉我们什么是特征问题，然后我会再问你几个问题吗？

Shishir Mehrotra: I've thought about the German game question.

Shishir Mehrotra：我考虑过德国游戏的问题。

Shishir Mehrotra: I didn't know this would be a very interesting game, but we could try to create one.

Shishir Mehrotra：我不知道这会是一款非常有趣的游戏，但我们可以尝试创建一个。

Okay, so I'll describe what eigenquestions are, but maybe I'll start by telling you a little bit about where the concept came from.

好的，我将描述什么是特征问题，但也许我会首先告诉您一些这个概念的来源。

And, this is actually a YouTube-ism that...

而且，这实际上是一种 YouTube 主义……

Maybe just to place ourselves in history, so in 2008 I joined YouTube.

也许只是为了让自己载入史册，所以我在 2008 年加入了 YouTube。

And many people don't remember this, but YouTube at the time was seen as a mistake.

很多人不记得这一点，但 YouTube 在当时被视为一个错误。

It was seen as Google's first bad acquisition, everything else had worked, but this thing kind of seemed like a disaster.

这被视为谷歌第一次糟糕的收购，其他一切都有效，但这件事看起来像是一场灾难。

It was grainy videos, we were losing lots of money, we had billions of dollars in lawsuits, none of it really seemed that obvious.

这是一些颗粒状的视频，我们损失了很多钱，我们有数十亿美元的诉讼，所有这些看起来都不是那么明显。

There's lots of discussion on how to reorient it, fix it, and so on.

关于如何重新定位、修复它等等有很多讨论。

And so everybody outside, that's what they saw.

所以外面的每个人，这就是他们所看到的。

Shishir Mehrotra: If you stepped inside a YouTube staff meeting in 2008, actually one of the toughest questions we were answering was this question we called the Modern Family question.

Shishir Mehrotra：如果您参加 2008 年的 YouTube 员工会议，实际上我们回答的最棘手的问题之一就是我们称之为“摩登家庭”的问题。

And it may sound small, but it actually was very perplexing.

听起来似乎很小，但实际上却非常令人困惑。

And the question was pretty simple, the question was if you looked at our search traffic at YouTube, one of the top five queries basically every week was for a show called Modern Family.

问题非常简单，问题是如果你查看我们在 YouTube 上的搜索流量，你会发现基本上每周排名前五的查询之一是关于《摩登家庭》的节目。

And Modern Family was number one show on television at the time, by far the most popular.

《摩登家庭》是当时电视上排名第一的节目，也是迄今为止最受欢迎的节目。

And we were second-biggest search engine in the world behind our parent company Google, so search traffic was very important.

我们是仅次于母公司谷歌的全球第二大搜索引擎，因此搜索流量非常重要。

There was one big problem, people would come search for Modern Family, one big problem, we didn't have Modern Family on YouTube.

有一个大问题，人们会来搜索《摩登家庭》，还有一个大问题，我们在 YouTube 上没有《摩登家庭》。

And so we'd give them some pretty crappy responses.

所以我们会给他们一些非常糟糕的回应。

And the question was...

问题是...

And by the way, ABC.com had decided to post every episode of Modern Family live on their website.

顺便说一句，ABC.com 决定在他们的网站上直播《摩登家庭》的每一集。

Shishir Mehrotra: Which nowadays is kind of typical, but in 2008 that was not typical, no is it kind of a big gamble they made, and they're going to post all these shows.

Shishir Mehrotra：现在这是一种典型的情况，但在 2008 年，情况并不典型，不，这是他们进行的一场大赌博，他们将发布所有这些节目。

So the question was, should we answer the query Modern Family by linking off to ABC.com?

所以问题是，我们是否应该通过链接到 ABC.com 来回答摩登家庭的查询？

Do we link out or not?

我们是否链接出去？

And the company basically divided.

而且公司基本上是分裂的。

And so there's half the company, mostly the product team, vantage team and so on kind of aligned around a viewpoint that was, "That's what the user wants, link them off to ABC.com.

因此，公司的一半人，主要是产品团队、优势团队等都围绕着这样一个观点：“这就是用户想要的，将他们链接到 ABC.com。

We're not owned by Google, Google tries hard to prioritize, do right by the user, the rest will follow.

我们不属于谷歌，谷歌努力确定优先级，为用户做正确的事，其余的就会随之而来。

That seems like the right thing to do, so let's do that." And then the other half of the company, most of the business function, sales, marketing, especially content partnership said, "Please, please, please don't do that.

这似乎是正确的做法，所以我们就这么做吧。”然后公司的另一半，大部分业务职能、销售、营销，尤其是内容合作伙伴说，“拜托，拜托，拜托不要这样做。

If you do that and you start linking off to all these other places, nobody's ever going to put good content on YouTube, and we're just going to get the stuff that doesn't deserve to live anywhere else.

如果您这样做并开始链接到所有其他地方，那么没有人会在 YouTube 上发布好的内容，而我们只会得到不值得放在其他地方的内容。

And that's not a very good path to be."

这不是一条很好的道路。”

Shishir Mehrotra: And you can imagine that those two mindsets, it's almost like it was good versus evil debate, which is do right by the user or the business.

Shishir Mehrotra：你可以想象这两种心态，这几乎就像是善与恶的辩论，这是由用户或企业正确进行的。

These are all almost impossible to solve problems.

这些都是几乎不可能解决的问题。

And this would happen meeting after meeting after meeting, did we make a decision yet?

这种情况会在一次又一次的会议上发生，我们做出决定了吗？

Modern Family, what are we going to do?

摩登家庭，我们该怎么办？

So we had this offsite, we said we're going to spend the whole day, and we're going to figure this problem.

所以我们在场外进行了这个工作，我们说我们要花一整天的时间来解决这个问题。

And we went up to this hotel in Half Moon Bay, and the executive team all sat down, and I was asked to frame the discussion, go collect everybody's opinions, and collect all the data, and just ground it all in facts.

我们去了半月湾的这家酒店，执行团队都坐下来，我被要求进行讨论，收集每个人的意见，收集所有数据，然后将所有这些都以事实为基础。

And then we're going to have a discussion, we're going to reach a decision.

然后我们将进行讨论，做出决定。

And so the night before I'm sitting and thinking about, how the hell we going to have this discussion not just be a shouting match of this good versus evil position?

所以前一天晚上，我坐下来思考，我们到底要如何进行这次讨论，而不仅仅是一场善恶立场的争吵？

Shishir Mehrotra: And I happened to read a analysis that was being done by a different team at Google, the Google shopping team, where they were facing this interesting challenge of they were in this deep fight with Amazon, and they were getting their butts kicked, and they were trying to figure out why.

Shishir Mehrotra：我碰巧读到了谷歌的另一个团队（谷歌购物团队）正在进行的一项分析，他们面临着一个有趣的挑战，他们正在与亚马逊进行深入的斗争，他们被踢了屁股，他们试图找出原因。

And the walking in theory was, the Google shopping team's view was why would anybody ever go in to Amazon?

理论上来说，谷歌购物团队的观点是为什么有人会去亚马逊？

You could come to Google, and we had indexed all of Amazon and the entire internet, why would you ever pick Amazon?

你可以来谷歌，我们已经索引了所有亚马逊和整个互联网，你为什么会选择亚马逊？

And the feedback that was coming back from users was they'd say, "I picked Amazon because I value consistency over comprehensiveness." They would say things like, "I really value that I go to amazon.com and I understand how the reviews work and how the ratings work, and I know that the returns work the way I want and I understand the shipping is going to work.

用户的反馈是，“我选择亚马逊是因为我更看重一致性而不是全面性。”他们会说，“我真的很重视访问 amazon.com，我了解评论和评级是如何运作的，而且我知道退货会按照我想要的方式进行，并且我了解运输将会进行。

And it just felt consistent.

而且感觉很一致。

I know it doesn't have everything, but it has enough.

我知道它没有拥有一切，但已经足够了。

And I value consistency over comprehensiveness."

我更看重一致性而不是全面性。”

Shishir Mehrotra: And so the night before this YouTube meeting, I decided to reframe the question and say, let's not have the discussion about linking out at all.

Shishir Mehrotra：所以在这次 YouTube 会议的前一天晚上，我决定重新组织这个问题并说，我们根本不讨论有关链接的问题。

We're going to start by having a theoretical discussion about, in a decade from now, is the online video market more likely to be about consistency or about comprehensiveness?

我们将首先进行一个理论讨论，即十年后，在线视频市场更有可能是一致性还是全面性？

And that is a question that you can have a very reasonable debater.

这是一个你可以有一个非常合理的辩论者的问题。

What are the reasons why a market evolves towards consistency over comprehensiveness?

市场向一致性而非全面性发展的原因是什么？

And we basically have this discussion and we all came to the conclusion this market is going to value consistency over comprehensiveness.

我们基本上进行了讨论，我们都得出这样的结论：这个市场将重视一致性而不是全面性。

Shishir Mehrotra: And by the way, I think, I mean now almost 15 years later, I think we're right.

Shishir Mehrotra：顺便说一句，我认为，我的意思是，差不多 15 年后的今天，我认为我们是对的。

If you go look at video market obviously it exploded.

如果你去看看视频市场，显然它呈爆炸式增长。

There's so many great video properties out there, none of them are comprehensive.

那里有很多很棒的视频属性，但没有一个是全面的。

There is no one-stop shop or a place where all the video exists.

不存在一站式商店或所有视频都存在的地方。

And so I think we were right.

所以我认为我们是对的。

But what happened was by answering that question, the link out question all of a sudden became super easy.

但发生的事情是，通过回答这个问题，链接问题突然变得超级简单。

We value consistency over comprehensive.

我们重视一致性而非全面性。

We definitely don't need to link out.

我们绝对不需要链接出去。

In fact, we should make a whole bunch of other decisions as well.

事实上，我们还应该做出一大堆其他决定。

So we went and at the time we used to, this was the days of flashed players and so on, we embedded other people's players on YouTube.

所以我们就去了，在过去，这是闪存播放器等的时代，我们将其他人的播放器嵌入到 YouTube 上。

We stopped doing that as well.

我们也停止这样做了。

Probably the most famous decision we made was with the iPhone.

我们做出的最著名的决定可能就是 iPhone。

Shishir Mehrotra: As I mentioned earlier, the iPhone when it first shipped had no app store.

Shishir Mehrotra：正如我之前提到的，iPhone 刚上市时没有应用程序商店。

And so they built all the first few apps including YouTube.

因此，他们构建了所有最初的几个应用程序，包括 YouTube。

And so here we were a few years later, iPhone the most popular phone on the planet and the YouTube app on the iPhone was built by a team at Apple and they had not been able to keep up with what we were doing.

几年后，iPhone 成为地球上最受欢迎的手机，iPhone 上的 YouTube 应用程序是由 Apple 的团队开发的，但他们无法跟上我们所做的事情。

Almost half the catalog didn't play back on the iPhone, they were missing a bunch of features and so on.

几乎一半的目录无法在 iPhone 上播放，它们缺少一些功能等等。

Shishir Mehrotra: So I drove down to Cupertino and I sat down with Scott and Phil and said, "Hey, we're going to have to take back the YouTube app." And they said, "I don't understand.

Shishir Mehrotra：所以我开车去了库比蒂诺，与斯科特和菲尔坐下来说：“嘿，我们将不得不收回 YouTube 应用程序。”他们说：“我不明白。

Why would you do that?

你为什么要这么做？

You have default distribution on, as far as they were concerned, the most important operating system in the world.

就他们而言，您拥有世界上最重要的操作系统的默认发行版。

Why would you do that?

你为什么要这么做？

You're going to have to rebuild all this from scratch and it just seems like a really bad choice." And I said, "No, no, it's actually quite an easy choice.

你将不得不从头开始重建这一切，这似乎是一个非常糟糕的选择。”我说：“不，不，这实际上是一个很简单的选择。

We value consistency over comprehensiveness.

我们重视一致性而非全面性。

We would much rather be on fewer phones with a more consistent experience than be on all of them with an inconsistent experience." So what, this is a choice we're making and it worked out fairly well.

我们宁愿在更少的手机上获得更一致的体验，也不愿在所有手机上获得不一致的体验。”那又怎样，这是我们正在做出的选择，而且效果相当好。

Shishir Mehrotra: So this decision, the Modern Family question ended up becoming named as the example for a term called eigenquestion.

Shishir Mehrotra：所以这个决定，现代家庭问题最终被命名为特征问题这个术语的例子。

So eigenquestions, it's not a German game show, it is a made up word and it's named after a math concept called eigenvectors.

所以特征问题，这不是一个德国游戏节目，它是一个虚构的词，它是以一个称为特征向量的数学概念命名的。

And the math is not really necessary, but for people who are curious, go back to linear algebra, eigenvectors are in a multidimensional space.

数学并不是真正必要的，但对于好奇的人来说，回到线性代数，特征向量位于多维空间中。

They're the most discriminating vectors of the vectors in that space, the dimensions of that space, it's a concept that gets used a lot in machine learning and so on, but actually the math doesn't really matter.

它们是该空间中向量中最具辨别力的向量，该空间的维度，这是一个在机器学习等中大量使用的概念，但实际上数学并不重要。

The eigenquestion, the simplest definition of eigenquestion, it's the question that when answered also answers the most subsequent questions.

特征问题，特征问题最简单的定义，它是在回答时也回答了最后续问题的问题。

Shishir Mehrotra: And it's a very simple idea that when you sit down and you say, hey, here's all these questions we ought to answer, how do we all usually rank them?

Shishir Mehrotra：这是一个非常简单的想法，当你坐下来说，嘿，这是我们应该回答的所有这些问题，我们通常如何对它们进行排名？

Sometimes we rank them just by what order we came up with them.

有时我们只是按照我们提出的顺序对它们进行排名。

Sometimes we rank them by importance, which is the most impactful decision we're going to make.

有时我们会按重要性对它们进行排名，这是我们要做的最有影响力的决定。

But this methodology says don't rank them that way.

但这种方法论表明不要这样对它们进行排名。

Rank them, like you said, thing about about leverage, same idea, rank them by which ones would eliminate the most other questions of the list.

对它们进行排名，就像你说的，关于杠杆，同样的想法，对它们进行排名，哪些问题可以消除列表中的大多数其他问题。

So you take that list and you said, should we link out to Modern Family?

所以你拿了这份清单，然后说，我们应该链接到《摩登家庭》吗？

Should we own the YouTube iPhone app?

我们应该拥有 YouTube iPhone 应用程序吗？

Should we do...

我们是否应该做...

mind you, those were really hard questions to answer.

请注意，这些问题确实很难回答。

But turns out if you answered just one question, do we value consistency over comprehensiveness, you answer all the others.

但事实证明，如果你只回答一个问题，我们是否重视一致性而不是全面性，你就会回答所有其他问题。

They all of a sudden become very simple.

他们突然变得非常简单。

Shishir Mehrotra: And so this idea of eigenquestion became part of our vocabulary, became a clear ritual for YouTube, that is, what is the eigenquestion, here at Dish for Coda as well, it sort of spread through other places, but that's the basic idea.

Shishir Mehrotra：因此，本征问题的想法成为了我们词汇的一部分，成为 YouTube 的一个明确的仪式，也就是说，什么是本征问题，在 Dish for Coda 也是如此，它在其他地方传播开来，但这就是基本想法。

Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

What a baller move with Apple.

苹果公司的举动真是太棒了。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。

But I was just going to say, I think YouTube's probably in the top five, 10 most downloaded apps.

但我只是想说，我认为 YouTube 可能跻身下载次数最多的应用程序前 5 名、10 名之列。

So it worked out.

所以它成功了。

Shishir Mehrotra: We'd go for that meeting and I bring along the product manager for the iPhone app named Andrey Doronichev, and he's the one having to explain what we're going to do and so on.

Shishir Mehrotra：我们会去参加那个会议，我会带上 iPhone 应用程序的产品经理 Andrey Doronichev，他必须解释我们要做什么等等。

And it's a hard contentious meeting.

这是一次艰难且充满争议的会议。

And as we're leaving the meeting, he says, "Hey, can I get a selfie with Bill and Scott?" Andrey, what are you doing?

当我们离开会议时，他说：“嘿，我可以和比尔和斯科特拍一张自拍照吗？”安德烈，你在做什么？

There's this great picture of him with us asking for, take this back.

我们要了一张他的很棒的照片，把它拿回来。

And clearly he's very starstruck.

显然他非常追星。

There's a lot of people with view as like, Apple would do a better job of building the YouTube app than us.

很多人都认为，苹果在构建 YouTube 应用方面会比我们做得更好。

Who are we to tell them to not do that?

我们有什么资格告诉他们不要这样做？

Of course, in retrospect, that was a silly way to think about it.

当然，现在回想起来，这是一种愚蠢的思考方式。

Lenny Rachitsky: Wow.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：哇。

I would do the same thing.

我也会做同样的事情。

That's amazing.

太棒了。

Who's this person?

这个人是谁？

Because that's awesome.

因为那太棒了。

I love that as a leader you bring the PM of the team working on it versus just the big shots at the top.

我喜欢作为领导者让团队的 PM 参与其中，而不是只让高层的大人物参与进来。

Shishir Mehrotra: Yeah, Andrey, he's now a founder.

Shishir Mehrotra：是的，安德烈，他现在是创始人。

He started a company called OPTIC, basically building content ID for NFTs, which is a much needed thing in the Web3 world.

他创办了一家名为 OPTIC 的公司，主要为 NFT 构建内容 ID，这是 Web3 世界中急需的东西。

But yeah, I mean the team building it, I mean, that meeting I brought my partnerships lead and I brought the ENCH lead that was covering the area too.

但是，是的，我的意思是团队建设，我的意思是，在那次会议上，我带来了我的合作伙伴领导，我也带来了覆盖该领域的 ENCH 领导。

And yeah, I think that some of it is, if I had to be honest, some of it is like they really wanted to come and meet with Apple.

是的，我认为，如果我必须诚实的话，其中一些是他们真的想来与苹果会面。

Some of it is like, for my own sake, I kind of wanted some backup.

有些就像，为了我自己，我想要一些备份。

I'm about to make this kind of bold ass...

我要做这种大胆的屁股......

And to Apple's credit, I mean they could have been pretty bad about it.

对于苹果来说，我的意思是他们可能做得很糟糕。

I mean they could have not allowed us on the store and so on.

我的意思是他们可能不允许我们进入商店等等。

Shishir Mehrotra: And they said, "Okay, well we don't like it, but we understand your choice.

Shishir Mehrotra：他们说：“好吧，我们不喜欢它，但我们理解你的选择。

You have to know that you're going to start from zero.

你必须知道你将从零开始。

We're not giving you a single download for free.

我们不会免费为您提供一次下载。

You're going to have to start from zero and we will brick the current app right on the agreed upon date." And the negotiation was can you please just tell those people that there's a new app?

你必须从零开始，我们将在约定的日期对当前的应用程序进行砖块化。”谈判的内容是你能告诉那些人有一个新应用程序吗？

And so that's what we negotiated out of it and they eventually did that and that was fine.

这就是我们协商的结果，他们最终做到了，这很好。

And in the end, YouTube is now one of the top downloaded apps on iPhones I think.

最后，我认为 YouTube 现在是 iPhone 上下载次数最多的应用程序之一。

I mean, it was like six months after launch, we had like 80% share.

我的意思是，发布后六个月，我们就拥有了大约 80% 的份额。

Everybody downloaded the app.

每个人都下载了该应用程序。

And so it kind of ended up not being that much of a comprehensiveness choice, but it was a clearly hard decision made much easier by asking the right eigenquestion first.

因此，这最终并不是一个全面性的选择，但通过首先提出正确的特征问题，这显然是一个艰难的决定，变得容易得多。

Lenny Rachitsky: Wow.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：哇。

Speaking of eigenquestions, are there other examples of eigenquestions that come to mind to make this even more concrete in people's minds?

说到本征问题，是否还有其他本征问题的例子可以让人们的头脑更加具体？

I don't know if that's the right way to frame it or is it more just when you have a list of questions, look for the one that'll answer the most.

我不知道这是否是正确的构建方式，还是当你有一系列问题时，寻找最能回答问题的问题。

How do you operationalize this concept?

您如何实施这个概念？

Shishir Mehrotra: There's lots of them.

Shishir Mehrotra：有很多。

I mean for Coda, the sort of most conceptual eigenquestion for Coda was, we use a line a lot for Coda, that Coda allows anyone to make a doc as powerful as an app.

我的意思是，对于 Coda 来说，Coda 最具概念性的特征问题是，我们在 Coda 中经常使用一条线，Coda 允许任何人制作与应用程序一样强大的文档。

You can reverse that statement and say, allow anyone to make an app as easily as a doc.

你可以反过来说，让任何人都可以像文档一样轻松地制作应用程序。

And those two sound similar, but they're not.

这两者听起来很相似，但其实不然。

They're actually quite different statements.

它们实际上是完全不同的陈述。

And so our most commonly debated eigenquestion is, are we more committed to being a doc or being an app?

因此，我们最常争论的特征问题是，我们更致力于成为一名文档还是成为一个应用程序？

And which way do we want people, if people are going to misunderstand Coda, would we rather them perceive it as a document or perceive it as an app?

如果人们会误解 Coda，我们希望人们采取哪种方式，我们是希望他们将其视为文档还是将其视为应用程序？

And we decided on doc, which is actually...

我们决定看医生，这实际上是......

And the way I cemented that decision when we made it was I named the company that way, where Coda is a doc backwards.

当我们做出这个决定时，我巩固了这个决定，我就是这样命名公司的，Coda 是一个倒退的文档。

Shishir Mehrotra: I said, "Well, we're definitely not revisiting this one.

Shishir Mehrotra：我说，“好吧，我们绝对不会重新讨论这个问题。

Coda is a doc first." That's a good example.

Coda 首先是一名医生。”这是一个很好的例子。

I mean, another one, by the way, I would say eigenquestions is a term that a guy could resonance itself, but it's a hard technique.

我的意思是，顺便说一句，我想说特征问题是一个可以引起共鸣的术语，但这是一项很难的技术。

It's not always easy to know how to do it.

知道如何去做并不总是那么容易。

And one of the things I get asked a lot it's like, is it a skill you can learn?

我经常被问到的一个问题是，这是一项你可以学习的技能吗？

I absolutely think it's a skill you can learn.

我绝对认为这是一项你可以学习的技能。

It's a thing that once you observe it, you get better at it, you can learn it, but it's not easy to learn it.

这是一件事，一旦你观察它，你就会变得更好，你可以学会它，但学会它并不容易。

And one of my observations by learning skills like these is, you want to learn them in non-pressure filled environment.

通过学习这些技能，我的观察之一是，你想在没有压力的环境中学习它们。

To use an analogy, if you were trying to learn a sport or learn an instrument or so on, imagine if you never did practice, every time you played basketball was in a real basketball game and every time you played the piano was in a recital, you probably would never get better.

打个比方，如果你想学习一项运动或学习一种乐器等，想象一下，如果你从来不练习，每次你打篮球都是在一场真正的篮球比赛中，每次你弹钢琴都是在一场独奏会中，你可能永远不会变得更好。

Shishir Mehrotra: And I think one of the troubles with the concept like eigenquestions is, we tend to only practice it in real world scenarios that are high stakes.

Shishir Mehrotra：我认为像特征问题这样的概念的问题之一是，我们倾向于只在现实世界的高风险场景中实践它。

And so one of the things I encourage people to do is to practice eigenquestion in completely almost frivolous situations.

因此，我鼓励人们做的一件事就是在几乎完全无关紧要的情况下练习本征问题。

So I have an interview question I ask, which I think, and maybe we'll get to this a little bit later as well, but it's a very simple question and it's a coded eigenquestion test.

所以我要问一个面试问题，我想，也许我们稍后也会讨论这个问题，但这是一个非常简单的问题，而且是一个编码的特征问题测试。

And the question is, a group of scientists have invented a teleportation device.

问题是，一群科学家发明了一种隐形传输装置。

They've hired you, Lenny, to be their sort of business counterpart, bring this to market product...

他们雇用你，莱尼，作为他们的业务伙伴，将这个产品推向市场......

Well, this question actually worked well for any role.

嗯，这个问题实际上适用于任何角色。

But say you could be a product manager for this thing, bring it to market and what do you do?

但是假设你可以成为这个东西的产品经理，将其推向市场，你会做什么？

That's the whole question.

这就是整个问题。

Shishir Mehrotra: Usually people will start asking a bunch of questions and say, "Well, tell me more about this device.

Shishir Mehrotra：通常人们会开始问一堆问题并说：“好吧，告诉我更多关于这个设备的信息。

What does it do?

它有什么作用？

How does it work?

它是如何运作的？

And is it big?

而且它大吗？

Is it small?

它小吗？

Is it vast?

广阔吗？

Does it disintegrate things or not?

它是否会瓦解事物？

Does it need a receiver and a sender?

它需要接收者和发送者吗？

It's safe?" And all these different questions come out and at some point I'll just let those questions come out and at some point I'll say, " Okay, nice job generating all the questions." Turns out these scientists, they kind of hate talking to people and they're kind of annoyed by all your questions.

安全吗？”所有这些不同的问题都会出现，在某个时候我会让这些问题出现，在某个时候我会说，“好吧，生成所有问题干得好。”事实证明，这些科学家有点讨厌与人交谈，并且对你所有的问题感到恼火。

And so they've decided that they will answer only two of your questions and after that they expect a plan.

所以他们决定只回答你的两个问题，然后他们期待一个计划。

What two questions do you ask?

你问哪两个问题？

Shishir Mehrotra: And interestingly, all of a sudden the sharp product managers, engineers, so basically every role, they very quickly find what are the one or two eigenquestions on this topic.

Shishir Mehrotra：有趣的是，突然之间，敏锐的产品经理、工程师，基本上每个角色，他们很快就找到了关于这个主题的一两个特征问题。

And there's no right answer, but I'll tell you one of my favorite ones is as a product manager said, "Okay, if I had to ask two questions, the two question I would ask, one is, is it safe enough for humans or not?"

没有正确的答案，但我会告诉你我最喜欢的一个是产品经理所说的，“好吧，如果我必须问两个问题，我会问的两个问题，一个是，它对人类来说是否足够安全？”

Shishir Mehrotra: And I would say a very crisp way to get to just safety, how reliable it is, they didn't ask how reliable it is, how many bits in middle, just tell me is it safe enough for humans or not?

Shishir Mehrotra：我想说的是一种非常简洁的方法来达到安全性，它有多可靠，他们没有问它有多可靠，中间有多少位，只是告诉我它对人类来说是否足够安全？

And the second one is, is it more expensive CapEx or OpEx?

第二个问题是，资本支出（CapEx）更贵还是运营支出（OpEx）更贵？

Is it more expensive to buy them or to run them?

购买它们更贵还是运行它们更贵？

And then he took those two questions and he said, "Just with those two questions, I can form these quadrants." And you can say, oh, it's safe enough for humans and they're very cheap to buy, but expensive to run.

然后他回答了这两个问题，他说：“只要有了这两个问题，我就可以形成这些象限。”你可以说，哦，这对人类来说足够安全，而且购买它们非常便宜，但运行起来却很昂贵。

Then you probably run them like human fax machines.

然后你可能会像人类传真机一样运行它们。

You put them everywhere you can and you say, "Hey look, it's expensive to use, but you'll have the ability to teleport anywhere you want and this is how we're going to run it."

你把它们放在你能想到的任何地方，然后你说：“嘿，看，它的使用成本很高，但你可以传送到你想要的任何地方，这就是我们运行它的方式。”

Shishir Mehrotra: On the other hand, they're very expensive to buy, but cheap to run.

Shishir Mehrotra：另一方面，它们的购买成本非常昂贵，但运行成本却很便宜。

You probably have to place them very strategically, in which case what you'd probably do is replace airports.

你可能必须非常有策略地放置它们，在这种情况下你可能要做的就是更换机场。

Because airports are pretty strategically placed in places where people are trying to get around places.

因为机场地理位置优越，位于人们试图出行的地方。

If it's not safe enough for humans, then you've got a whole different class of use cases where you go value what goods are transported in very costly ways.

如果它对人类来说不够安全，那么您就会遇到一类完全不同的用例，您会重视以非常昂贵的方式运输的货物。

And people come up with, do you do the most expensive things or is teleporting people's replacement hearts, is that a really demanding thing?

人们会想，你是做最昂贵的事情还是传送人们的替代心脏，这真的是一件要求很高的事情吗？

But these two questions kind of get to the heart of it.

但这两个问题触及了问题的核心。

The question's totally made up.

这个问题完全是编出来的。

No teleportation device exists, at least not yet.

传送装置不存在，至少现在还不存在。

And I find that people's ability to learn the method is significantly higher if it's low stakes.

我发现，如果风险较低，人们学习该方法的能力就会显着提高。

Shishir Mehrotra: That question by the way, if you ask a kid that question, the hey new teleportation device, you get to ask two questions, almost every kid will quickly get to two pretty good eigenquestions.

Shishir Mehrotra：顺便说一句，如果你问一个孩子这个问题，嘿新的隐形传输设备，你会问两个问题，几乎每个孩子都会很快得到两个非常好的特征问题。

Again, kids are incredibly good at simplifying these things down.

再说一次，孩子们非常擅长简化这些事情。

It's actually a skill we remove from ourselves.

这实际上是我们从自己身上移除的一项技能。

I'll hear candidates tell me things like, well, I guess I would ask them what size it is.

我会听到候选人告诉我这样的话，好吧，我想我会问他们它的尺寸是多少。

And they're like, "Why would you ask them what size, what decision is that going to allow you to make, to know what size it is?" And sometimes I can explain it, but sometimes not, don't get hired.

他们会说，“你为什么要问他们有多大，这会让你做出什么决定，知道它有多大？”有时我可以解释，但有时不能，不要被雇用。

Shishir Mehrotra: But then actually the thing I'd say about it is there are eigenquestions everywhere.

Shishir Mehrotra：但实际上我想说的是，到处都存在本征问题。

You can take any product out there.

您可以将任何产品带到那里。

I'll do it with my kids a lot and they'll say, I was just riding with my younger daughter and she said, "How come there's three gas stations in the same corner?

我经常和我的孩子们一起骑车，他们会说，我只是和我的小女儿一起骑车，她说，“为什么同一个角落有三个加油站？

Why do people do that?" That's a really insightful observation.

人们为什么要这么做？”这是一个非常有洞察力的观察。

What's the eigenquestion?

什么是本征问题？

How do you place a gas station?

加油站如何布局？

And it's like a bread nose.

它就像一个面包鼻子。

And you can almost take anything and say, what is the question that really drives this answer?

你几乎可以拿任何东西说，真正驱动这个答案的问题是什么？

Lenny Rachitsky: I love that.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢这个。

Do you actually still ask this question because you're sharing it in all the answers?

你实际上还在问这个问题，因为你在所有答案中都分享了这个问题吗？

Shishir Mehrotra: No, I don't.

Shishir Mehrotra：不，我不知道。

And I have a new one that I can't share, but we've written about it.

我有一个新的，我不能分享，但我们已经写过它。

In fact, one of big debates about publishing the eigenquestions thing is, in order to bring this to life, I needed to answer your question, how do I test this?

事实上，关于发布特征问题的一大争论是，为了将其变为现实，我需要回答你的问题，我如何测试它？

How do I practice this?

我该如何练习这个？

And it is much easier, nobody can repeat the YouTube one.

而且这更容易，没有人可以重复 YouTube 的做法。

Nobody has that choice sitting in front of them.

坐在他们面前的人没有这样的选择。

So it's kind of a useless, it's entertaining, but as a teaching tool, it's kind of useless because you can't really go reinvent history and decide consistent versus comprehensive.

所以它有点无用，它很有趣，但作为一种教学工具，它有点无用，因为你不能真正去重塑历史并决定一致与全面。

Lenny Rachitsky: So pull on that threat further and dive a little deeper into evaluating talent and product talent.

Lenny Rachitsky：因此，进一步应对这一威胁，更深入地评估人才和产品人才。

I hear this is one of your superpowers and so I'd love to learn from you and what you've seen around how to evaluate talent.

我听说这是你的超能力之一，所以我很想向你学习以及你在如何评估人才方面的所见所闻。

So you talked a little about interview questions you ask, so maybe we could either go in that direction or just what do you look for in people that you're hiring, interviewing that maybe other people aren't?

所以你谈了一些你提出的面试问题，所以也许我们可以朝这个方向发展，或者你在你正在招聘的人身上寻找什么，面试其他人可能不是？

Shishir Mehrotra: I have a technique for it.

Shishir Mehrotra：我有一个技巧。

I'll show a quick picture.

我将快速展示一张图片。

Shishir Mehrotra: Yeah, YouTube plug.

Shishir Mehrotra：是的，YouTube 插件。

I mentioned it before the call, you can put video on Spotify now too, but the-

我在电话会议之前提到过，你现在也可以在 Spotify 上播放视频，但是-

Lenny Rachitsky: Spotify plug.

Lenny Rachitsky：Spotify 插件。

All your platforms that you've worked on now can plug my videos.

你现在工作过的所有平台都可以插入我的视频。

Shishir Mehrotra: That's right.

Shishir Mehrotra：没错。

So I'll talk through this diagram that has two axes scope, this acronym, PSHE, and this line.

因此，我将讨论这个具有两个轴范围的图、这个首字母缩写词 PSHE 和这条线。

So I'll stop sharing and describe it and we can come back to it.

所以我将停止分享和描述它，我们可以回到它。

But I'll tell a little bit of this technique sort of changed how I think about evaluating not only product talent, but it actually turns out you can use the same set of rules for evaluating basically every role.

但我会告诉你，这种技术不仅改变了我对评估产品人才的看法，而且实际上事实证明，你可以使用同一套规则来评估基本上每个角色。

But I'll tell it from how you asked it about product talent.

但我会从你询问产品人才的方式来告诉我。

Shishir Mehrotra: So 2011, Larry Page took over at Google and he made a bunch of changes to the company, mostly quite positive.

Shishir Mehrotra：2011 年，拉里·佩奇 (Larry Page) 接任谷歌，他对公司做出了一系列改变，其中大部分都是积极的。

And one of the ones he did was he moved us from being a functional organization to being a business unit organization.

他所做的其中一件事是将我们从一个职能组织转变为一个业务部门组织。

We call them product units, but roughly the same thing.

我们称它们为产品单元，但大致相同。

And there were eight product units set at Google, YouTube and Search and Ads and Chrome and Maps and so on.

其中，谷歌、YouTube、搜索和广告、Chrome和地图等共设置了8个产品单元。

And that's very positive.

这是非常积极的。

It's hard to believe that we were already like 20,000 people were still functional, like all of engineering, all the products on reported into the CEO just seems like totally crazy with the breadth of products that we covered.

很难相信我们已经有 20,000 名员工仍在正常工作，就像所有工程部门一样，向首席执行官报告的所有产品对于我们涵盖的产品范围来说似乎完全疯狂。

Shishir Mehrotra: One of the downsides of it was, like in any functional to business unit switch, as you lose some of that what does the function mean.

Shishir Mehrotra：它的缺点之一是，就像任何功能到业务部门的转换一样，当你失去一些功能的含义时。

And in particular things like what is a good product manager was a question we were at risk of losing.

特别是像什么是优秀的产品经理这样的问题是我们面临失败的风险的。

So at the time I was running product for YouTube, the group of the eight product leaders around the company got together and said, "Hey, we need to keep some level of consistency amongst how we think about what's a great product manager or it's all going to diverge and it's not going to mean anything anymore."

因此，当我负责 YouTube 的产品时，公司的 8 位产品负责人聚在一起说：“嘿，我们对于什么是优秀产品经理的看法需要保持一定程度的一致性，否则一切都会出现分歧，并且不再具有任何意义。”

Shishir Mehrotra: Actually, as a fun aside, we did a ritual that I've repeated a few times, but it isn't done often enough is, we said, "So who's going to drive this process?" And we did it in an election.

Shishir Mehrotra：实际上，除了好玩之外，我们做了一个我重复了几次的仪式，但做得不够频繁，我们说，“那么谁来推动这个过程呢？”我们在选举中做到了这一点。

I don't know why we do elections in the public world, but not in the private world, but it's actually quite effective.

我不知道为什么我们在公共世界进行选举，而不是在私人世界进行选举，但这实际上非常有效。

We used to do them on YouTube where we would elect into certain roles and you got a one-year term, you gave a little speech you like .

我们以前在 YouTube 上做过这样的事，我们会选举某些角色，你的任期为一年，你可以发表一些你喜欢的演讲。

We did an election.

我们进行了选举。

Anyway, so I got chosen to be the first sort of leader of this challenge, keeping the product management function together at Google.

不管怎样，我被选为这项挑战的第一批领导者，负责在谷歌保持产品管理职能。

And the most obvious job we had to do was come up with a speech for the Calibration Committee.

我们要做的最明显的工作就是为校准委员会发表演讲。

So Google does calibration a little bit different or promotion a little bit different than most companies.

因此，谷歌的校准或促销方式与大多数公司略有不同。

Shishir Mehrotra: Most companies your boss decides you get promoted or not.

Shishir Mehrotra：大多数公司都是由你的老板决定你是否升职。

At Google, there's a committee that decides, and it's supposed to be a committee that doesn't actually work directly with the person, so it can be a little unbiased and so on.

在谷歌，有一个委员会来做决定，它应该是一个实际上并不直接与该人合作的委员会，所以它可能会有点不偏不倚等等。

And it gets done.

事情就完成了。

The ritual was to do it in a hotel near the airport here in San Francisco and everybody get in these different rooms.

仪式是在旧金山机场附近的一家酒店进行，每个人都进入这些不同的房间。

And there was always a speech given at the beginning that used to be given by Jonathan Rosenberg who ran product for Google for many years.

开头的演讲总是由乔纳森·罗森伯格（Jonathan Rosenberg）发表，他曾为谷歌负责产品多年。

And now it had to be given by somebody.

现在它必须由某人提供。

So I'm going to give this speech, now I've got to figure out what the hell am I going to say, what's a good product manager.

所以我要发表这个演讲，现在我必须弄清楚我到底要说什么，什么是一个好的产品经理。

Shishir Mehrotra: And as I was going through this, I decided to run this little exercise.

Shishir Mehrotra：当我经历这个时，我决定进行这个小练习。

So this group of eight product leaders, we took the level guides, we had a level guide for product managers, every company does, and we took it, we printed out a sheet of paper, cut it into little slices, one per level, and we cut off the title and the number and I handed them out and I said, "Can you reverse identify what level you're holding?"

所以这个由八名产品领导者组成的小组，我们拿了级别指南，我们为产品经理制定了级别指南，每个公司都有，我们拿了它，打印了一张纸，将其切成小片，每个级别一个，然后我们剪下标题和编号，然后我把它们分发出去，我说，“你能反向识别你所持有的级别吗？”

Shishir Mehrotra: Then turns out nobody could do it.

Shishir Mehrotra：结果发现没人能做到。

And it's not easy to do.

这并不容易做到。

The level guide had been kind of added to over time and not really that refined.

随着时间的推移，关卡指南有所增加，但并没有那么完善。

And so it's full of all sorts of things that were whatever at that time was the priority of the team, they stuck it in a level guide.

所以它充满了当时团队优先考虑的各种各样的东西，他们把它放在关卡指南中。

And so it would say things like, this person can manage a medium-sized project and they interview at least three people a week and they always send the notes out on time and their expense reports are always filed.

所以它会说，这个人可以管理一个中型项目，他们每周至少面试三个人，他们总是按时发送笔记，他们的费用报告总是被归档。

And it'd be like, oh, that's a director.

就像，哦，那是一位导演。

And it's just whatever we were trying to incent was sort of stuck in this thing.

我们试图激励的一切都被困在了这件事中。

But we noticed that if you took all these sheets of paper and laid them out side by side, you could order them by exactly one statement, which was one that corresponded to scope.

但我们注意到，如果你把所有这些纸并排放在一起，你就可以通过一个语句来对它们进行排序，这个语句与范围相对应。

Shishir Mehrotra: And so there's some word in there that was an escalating adjective that mostly correlated to how big is the thing you run.

Shishir Mehrotra：所以里面有一个词是一个不断升级的形容词，主要与你运行的东西有多大相关。

And so we decided, okay, well we're going to standardize.

所以我们决定，好吧，我们要标准化。

We're just going to focus on making that clear.

我们只是集中精力澄清这一点。

And so we said we're going to define scope and so that we all use it the same way.

所以我们说我们将定义范围，以便我们都以相同的方式使用它。

And we came up with some stopping points and basically said, you own a feature, you own a group of features, you own a sub area of a product.

我们提出了一些停止点，基本上是说，你拥有一个功能，你拥有一组功能，你拥有产品的一个子领域。

You own multiple sub areas of product, you own an entire product, or you own multiple products, you own a product line.

您拥有产品的多个子领域，您拥有整个产品，或者您拥有多个产品，您拥有一条产品线。

And that's going to be how we think about scope, go forth and evaluate your teams.

这将是我们思考范围、继续前进和评估您的团队的方式。

We had the next meeting a couple weeks later and everybody comes back upset.

几周后我们举行了下一次会议，每个人都感到沮丧。

It's like, this didn't work at all.

就好像，这根本不起作用。

Why?

为什么？

What happened?

发生了什么？

And said, "Well, the search team is super mad at the ads team because search is one product, the entire thing is one product.

并说道：“嗯，搜索团队对广告团队非常生气，因为搜索是一种产品，整个事情都是一种产品。

The ads team, they went and invented all these products, because it's like every little thing.

广告团队发明了所有这些产品，因为这就像每件小事一样。

Shishir Mehrotra: ...

希希尔·梅赫罗特拉：...

the ads team, they went and invented all these products, because it's like every little thing you do in the ads platform has a SKU, has a P&L, has a...

广告团队，他们发明了所有这些产品，因为就像你在广告平台上做的每一件小事都有一个 SKU，有一个损益表，有一个......

Because you have lots of products, so worked.

因为你有很多产品，所以工作。

The second issue was they said the scope is actually an input, not an output.

第二个问题是他们说范围实际上是输入，而不是输出。

We're talking to our manager and said, "Well, this person should get promoted.

我们正在与经理交谈并说：“好吧，这个人应该得到晋升。

They've managed this huge scope." And then they would say, "But you gave them that scope.

他们已经管理了这么大的范围。”然后他们会说，“但是你给了他们这个范围。

We should be judging you, not the person.

我们应该评判你，而不是这个人。

How do we judge what they're doing with the scope?" It's actually very different.

我们如何判断他们在用示波器做什么？”这实际上是非常不同的。

And the third issue was in almost every team, some of our best people were working on things with odd scope.

第三个问题是，几乎在每个团队中，我们的一些最优秀的人员都在从事范围奇怪的事情。

They were risky projects.

它们是有风险的项目。

We didn't yet know is this thing going to work or not work, is Mike canceled.

我们还不知道这件事是否会起作用，迈克是否被取消了。

And if we put in place a system that only rewarded scope, we would heavily disincent people from working on these riskier, more creative things.

如果我们建立一个只奖励范围的制度，我们就会严重阻止人们从事这些风险更大、更具创造性的事情。

Shishir Mehrotra: So we were stuck.

Shishir Mehrotra：所以我们陷入了困境。

And then we ended up set...

然后我们就定下了...

We went through lots of frameworks.

我们经历了很多框架。

We ended up settling on this one called PSHE, and it comes from old mentor of mine, Clark, who's my boss at Microsoft for a number of years.

我们最终选择了名为 PSHE 的方法，它来自我的老导师克拉克，他是我在微软工作多年的老板。

And it stands for Problem, Solution, How, Execution, PSHE.

它代表问题、解决方案、如何、执行、PSHE。

And I will say it's a...

我会说这是一个...

I've tried many times to come up with a better acronym and I have not been able to come up with one.

我曾多次尝试想出一个更好的缩写词，但一直未能想出一个。

So it's push.

所以这是推。

That's the word.

就是这个词。

That's as good as I can get.

这是我能得到的最好的了。

But here's how...

但这是如何...

It works good enough.

它工作得足够好。

So push, that's all you have to remember.

所以，推动，这就是你所需要记住的。

It doesn't roll off the tongue, but maybe...

它不会从舌头上滚下来，但也许......

I did better with questions I think, but...

我认为我在问题上做得更好，但是......

So here's how it works.

这就是它的工作原理。

So if you're a junior product manager, what happens?

那么，如果你是初级产品经理，会发生什么？

You get handed a problem.

你遇到了一个问题。

You get handed a solution.

你会得到一个解决方案。

You get handed the how.

你会知道如何做。

"Go talk to this person.

“去跟这个人谈谈吧。

Write this document.

写这个文件。

Run this meeting," so on.

召开这次会议”，等等。

And all you have to do is execute, run that playbook, and that's all we expect out of you.

您所要做的就是执行、运行该剧本，这就是我们对您的期望。

You can become a little more senior.

你可以变得更高级一点。

We hand you a problem.

我们给你一个问题。

We hand you a rough solution.

我们为您提供一个粗略的解决方案。

You figure out the how.

你弄清楚如何做。

You figure out the, "How are we going to organize this?

你会想，“我们要如何组织这个？

What are the milestones?

里程碑是什么？

How are we going to get it to market?

我们如何将其推向市场？

How are we going to do the meetings?

我们要如何开会？

What are the rituals?" All those things show up in the H.

仪式是什么？”所有这些都出现在 H.

Shishir Mehrotra: At some point you become a little more senior.

Shishir Mehrotra：在某些时候，你会变得更资深一些。

We hand you a problem and you come back with the solutions.

我们给您一个问题，您带着解决方案回来。

You come up and we judge you on the creativity and the effectiveness of the solutions.

您提出来，我们会根据解决方案的创造力和有效性来评判您。

And at some point you're senior enough that you tell us the problems and you say, "Hey.

到了某个时候，你的资历已经足够高了，你可以告诉我们问题，然后说：“嘿。

I know you told me to go work on activation, but actually I think our issue is brand," or, "I think our issue is quality," or, "I think our issue is..." whatever it might be.

我知道你告诉我要进行激活工作，但实际上我认为我们的问题是品牌，”或者，“我认为我们的问题是质量”，或者，“我认为我们的问题是......”无论是什么。

And that's the pinnacle of this way of thinking about it.

这就是这种思考方式的顶峰。

Shishir Mehrotra: Now just back to this picture for a moment, one of the interesting things that happened was that the teams went and they evaluated their teams on these two axes and they end up with this curved line between them.

Shishir Mehrotra：现在回到这张图片，发生的有趣的事情之一是，团队去评估他们的团队在这两个轴上，最终在它们之间形成了这条曲线。

It's not linear as you work your way through.

当你按照自己的方式工作时，它不是线性的。

And what happens is early in people's career, they mostly sit at that E point.

发生的事情发生在人们职业生涯的早期，他们大多处于那个 E 点。

You get handed a problem and handed a solution, handed a how and you just execute, and they gradually grow in scope.

你得到一个问题、一个解决方案、一个方法，你只需执行，它们的范围就会逐渐扩大。

Later in people's careers, similarly, you're at that P level.

同样，在人们职业生涯的后期，你也处于 P 级别。

You just do bigger and bigger products.

你只是做越来越大的产品。

And the job of being an entrepreneur or CEO or an owner or so on is just do bigger and bigger projects.

作为企业家、首席执行官或所有者等的工作就是做越来越大的项目。

But in the middle, the slope changes and all of a sudden, it's not really about scope.

但到了中间，坡度发生了变化，突然之间，范围就不再重要了。

It's about PSHE.

这是关于 PSHE 的。

And there's a circle drawing in here for what I like to call the trough of dissolution.

这里画了一个圆圈，我称之为溶解的低谷。

Shishir Mehrotra: And the reason...

Shishir Mehrotra：原因是……

I'll stop sharing so we can talk about it, but what happens in that phase, and I was talking to the calibration committees about this, the reason we call it the trough of dissolution meant is for the employee, for the person, this is a confusing time.

我将停止分享，以便我们可以讨论它，但是在那个阶段发生了什么，我正在与校准委员会讨论这个问题，我们称之为解散低谷的原因是对于员工，对于个人来说，这是一个令人困惑的时期。

Everything about leading up to this moment from high school and college has been about scope.

从高中和大学到这一刻的一切都与范围有关。

And at this point you're all of a sudden told, "We're not judging you on scope anymore.

这时你突然被告知：“我们不再根据范围来评判你了。

We're judging you on this PSHE thing that's very confusing." To the calibrator or to the manager, it's also very confusing because all of a sudden, the difference...

我们根据 PSHE 的事情来评判你，这非常令人困惑。”对于校准员或经理来说，这也非常令人困惑，因为突然之间，差异......

The way I would put it is the difference between a level three and a level seven may not be scope.

我想说的是，三级和七级之间的区别可能不是范围。

They may do the exact same job.

他们可能做完全相同的工作。

It's how they do the job that matters and here's some language for how they do the job.

重要的是他们如何完成工作，这里有一些关于他们如何完成工作的语言。

Shishir Mehrotra: And so PSHE became a very sticky way of thinking about it.

Shishir Mehrotra：因此 PSHE 成为一种非常棘手的思考方式。

It turns out that this way of evaluating people is actually not that specific to product management.

事实证明，这种评价人的方式其实并不是产品管理特有的。

It's really easy to see why you do the exact same thing for engineers and designers and so on, but to pick one that may not be as obvious, I'll pick salespeople.

很容易理解为什么你为工程师和设计师等做完全相同的事情，但要选择一个可能不那么明显的人，我会选择销售人员。

A very common thing people do with salespeople is they evaluate them based on quota attainment.

人们对销售人员做的一个非常常见的事情是根据配额完成情况来评估他们。

It's the easiest thing to do is take the salespeople and rank them by who hit their quota and who didn't.

最简单的方法就是对销售人员进行排名，根据谁达到了配额，谁没有达到配额。

You go ask the sales team who's the best salesperson, and what you'll realize is they'll say quota attainment is just a signal for how good you negotiated your quota and picked the right territory.

你去问销售团队谁是最好的销售人员，你会意识到他们会说达到配额只是一个信号，表明你协商配额和选择正确区域的情况有多好。

Really, you want to know who's a best salesperson, they say, "Well, so and so, I mean she can sell anything and she can be in the region that's growing or the region that's shrinking or the new product or the old product or..."

真的，你想知道谁是最好的销售人员，他们说，“嗯，某某，我的意思是她可以销售任何东西，她可以在增长的地区或正在萎缩的地区或新产品或旧产品或......”

Shishir Mehrotra: And if you think about that terminology, it's very similar to PSHE thinking.

Shishir Mehrotra：如果你考虑一下这个术语，就会发现它与 PSHE 思维非常相似。

This is the person who can come into a new space, identify the right problems and solve them.

这是能够进入新空间、识别正确问题并解决它们的人。

That's what makes a really great salesperson.

这就是成为一名真正出色的销售人员的原因。

So it could become my framework for evaluating talent in all sorts of ways.

因此，它可以成为我以各种方式评估人才的框架。

And you might recognize a pattern of being a great P thinker is very correlated with being good with questions.

你可能会认识到，成为一名优秀的 P 思考者的模式与善于提问密切相关。

Can you spot the right problems?

你能发现正确的问题吗？

It's very similar to can you spot the right questions?

这与你能找到正确的问题非常相似吗？

Can you decide what's important?

你能决定什么是重要的吗？

And so that's been my main framework for value.

这就是我的主要价值框架。

Lenny Rachitsky: Wow.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：哇。

There's so much there.

那里有很多东西。

A couple quick questions.

几个简单的问题。

Is this basically your calibration ladder framework for PMs at this point?

这基本上是您目前针对产品经理的校准阶梯框架吗？

And then is this also just like your interview guide, just interview at each of these pieces to level the person?

那么这是否也像你的面试指南一样，只是对这些部分进行面试以平衡人？

Shishir Mehrotra: Yeah.

希希尔·梅赫罗特拉：是的。

So it's definitely how we do.

所以这绝对是我们的做法。

Our version of leveling is PSHE, and we use a set of Radford levels.

我们的调平版本是 PSHE，我们使用一组 Radford 级别。

Radford has this really interesting way of describing that as you grow in a profession...

雷德福用一种非常有趣的方式来描述当你在职业中成长时......

He uses the analogy of someone, of a sailor and that a junior sailor is learning to tie knots and then you gradually can tie all the standard knots and then you can tie the advanced knots and so on, and so you work your way up and at some point the way you're judged is you invented nylon and there's list between there.

他用一个水手的比喻，初级水手正在学习打结，然后你逐渐可以打所有标准的结，然后你可以打高级的结，依此类推，所以你一路向上，在某些时候，你被评判的方式是你发明了尼龙，中间有一个列表。

It's like a way to evaluate every role.

这就像评估每个角色的一种方式。

It's very similar to PSHE.

它与 PSHE 非常相似。

And so we look at a similar list.

所以我们看一个类似的列表。

But yeah, basically all of our roles are evaluated on something that corresponds with PSHE.

但是，是的，基本上我们所有的角色都是根据与 PSHE 相对应的东西来评估的。

Shishir Mehrotra: And in terms of interviews, yeah, you look for the same thing.

Shishir Mehrotra：就采访而言，是的，你寻找的是同样的东西。

And by the way, I should say interviewing is one part of this.

顺便说一句，我应该说面试是其中的一部分。

And you talk about interviewing.

你还谈到面试。

You talk about calibration.

你谈论校准。

There's one other really important one which is reference checking.

还有另外一项非常重要的工作，那就是背景调查。

And I think the best way to assess PSHE is actually through references.

我认为评估 PSHE 的最佳方法实际上是通过参考文献。

And so the most important guide we write isn't the interview guide.

因此，我们编写的最重要的指南不是面试指南。

When we call this person's references, what do you ask to actually get at these questions?

当我们给这个人的推荐人打电话时，你会问什么来真正了解这些问题？

Because people can often confuse them.

因为人们常常会混淆它们。

Shishir Mehrotra: Just to pick product managers as an example.

Shishir Mehrotra：仅以挑选产品经理为例。

We all know some really amazing H level product managers.

我们都认识一些非常出色的 H 级产品经理。

And one of the reasons, one of the hallmarks, of an H level product manager is that their counterparts usually love them and they'll say things like, "Oh, my gosh.

H 级产品经理的原因之一、标志之一是，他们的同事通常喜欢他们，他们会说，“哦，天哪。

The person runs such efficient meetings and all the communication is always clear.

这个人召开的会议非常高效，所有的沟通总是清晰的。

always buttoned up.

总是扣紧扣子。

Execs know what we're doing.

高管们知道我们在做什么。

The market knows what we're doing.

市场知道我们在做什么。

Sales team know what we're doing." That's great H.

销售团队知道我们在做什么。”真是太棒了H。

And then you'll ask them a question about, "Okay.

然后你会问他们一个问题，“好吧。

So when you're deciding which problem to solve, who is the leader of that?

那么，当您决定要解决哪个问题时，谁是该问题的领导者？

And are they picking the right problems?

他们是否选择了正确的问题？

Or when there's a hard problem, who is regularly coming up with the best solutions for them?

或者当出现难题时，谁经常为他们提出最佳解决方案？

Who do you turn to?

你向谁求助？

Who is the most obvious person to turn to say, 'This is really hard problem.

谁是最明显会说“这确实是一个难题”的人。

What's the right solution?'?"

正确的解决方案是什么？’？”

Shishir Mehrotra: An amazing number of people will tell you, "No, they run a great meeting but actually solving the problem, designer does that," or, "What are the problems?

Shishir Mehrotra：很多人会告诉你，“不，他们召开了一次很棒的会议，但实际上解决了问题，设计师就是这样做的”，或者，“问题是什么？

No. The CEO tells us what to do.

不，首席执行官告诉我们该做什么。

That's not what this person's really good at.

这并不是这个人真正擅长的。

Yeah.

是的。

I'm not sure we're solving the right problem, but boy, we run a great meeting." And it's not meant to diminish any of that.

我不确定我们是否正在解决正确的问题，但是天哪，我们召开了一次很棒的会议。”这并不意味着要减少这些。

I mean, we spent a while talking about rituals, which mostly happen at that H level, so I don't think it's unimportant, but it's actually quite hard to assess in an interview but incredibly easy to assess in a reference check.

我的意思是，我们花了一段时间讨论仪式，这些仪式大多发生在 H 级别，所以我认为这并不重要，但实际上在面试中很难评估，但在背景调查中评估却非常容易。

And I think getting good at that is really important.

我认为擅长这一点非常重要。

Lenny Rachitsky: You may have mentioned this, but what's the question there?

Lenny Rachitsky：您可能已经提到过这一点，但问题是什么？

Is there a question that you could recommend?

有什么问题可以推荐吗？

Shishir Mehrotra: The absolute ideal case is you get to the person that you're doing the reference check with and you don't even tell them who you're asking about and you just say, "When you think of your teams, who is best at..." And this obviously only works in cases where you have a pretty deep relationship with the person you're getting referenced from and so on.

Shishir Mehrotra：绝对理想的情况是，你找到正在与你进行背景调查的人，你甚至不告诉他们你在问谁，你只是说，“当你想到你的团队时，谁最擅长......”这显然只适用于你与你的背景关系密切的人等等。

So you can't always do that.

所以你不能总是这样做。

But ideally you want to mimic that behavior.

但理想情况下你想模仿这种行为。

One of the things I think that's hard about reference checks is people have...

我认为背景调查的困难之一是人们......

They have perverse incentives in a reference check.

他们在背景调查中有不正当的动机。

They're not really...

他们其实不是...

Some of it is for good reason.

其中一些是有充分理由的。

Some of it is for bad reason.

其中一些是出于不好的原因。

People generally don't like criticizing people and they also feel judged themselves and they don't want...

人们通常不喜欢批评别人，他们也觉得自己受到评判，他们不想……

There's legal reasons that things can blow back and so on.

事情可能会逆转，有法律原因等等。

Shishir Mehrotra: And so what I try really hard to do is to draw contrasts.

Shishir Mehrotra：所以我真正努力做的是形成对比。

So you try to say things...

所以你试着说一些话...

There's a couple of techniques I've used for this.

我为此使用了几种技术。

In the best case you say, "I'm not going to even tell you who I'm asking about, but when you think about this team who regularly identifies what problems they should focus on?

在最好的情况下，你会说：“我什至不会告诉你我在问谁，但是当你想到这个团队时，他们会定期确定他们应该关注哪些问题？

Who is most reliable at coming up with the solutions to the hardest problems?" And you work your way through it.

谁在解决最困难问题方面最可靠？”然后你就可以自己解决这个问题。

The other way I like to do it is to provide contrast to give the person an out to not make it obvious to them that I have this ranking.

我喜欢做的另一种方式是提供对比，让人们不要让他们明显知道我有这个排名。

And so I'll say things like, "When you think about this person, and I'll give you four different personas.

所以我会说，“当你想到这个人时，我会给你四种不同的角色。

Someone who's regularly coming up with the problems that the team should be focused on.

经常提出团队应该关注的问题的人。

Someone who given a set of problems is constantly solving them in this really creative way.

提出一系列问题的人不断地以这种真正有创意的方式解决它们。

The person that is just really good at getting a team moving.

真正擅长推动团队前进的人。

Or the person who can take a playbook and execute it with high precision and high quality and stuff."

或者是能够拿着剧本并以高精度和高质量执行它的人。”

Shishir Mehrotra: And I won't tell them that I have a qualitative judgment that one is better than the other, but you want them...

Shishir Mehrotra：我不会告诉他们我有一个定性判断，认为一个比另一个更好，但你想要他们......

Because you just want your reference check to talk and you want them to say what's on their mind of...

因为你只是想让你的背景调查能够说话，并且你想让他们说出他们的想法......

You want to give them an opening to not feel like they're judging.

你想给他们一个机会，让他们不觉得自己在评判。

Obviously, another question I always ask people is, "Would you hire this person again?

显然，我经常问人们的另一个问题是：“你会再次雇用这个人吗？

Or how excitedly would you hire this person again?" I always ask them, "What questions should I have asked that I didn't?" Another key technique for reference checks is you just need people to...

或者你会多么兴奋地再次雇用这个人？”我总是问他们：“哪些问题是我应该问而没有问的？”背景调查的另一个关键技术是你只需要人们......

Once they start talking, they'll reveal what they really feel and often the little things will come out.

一旦他们开始交谈，他们就会说出自己的真实感受，而且常常会说出一些小事情。

But for this particular thing, if I want to know where they stand on this axis, don't tell people what you value.

但对于这个特定的事情，如果我想知道他们在这个轴上的位置，不要告诉人们你看重什么。

By the way, I will say I value P over S over H over E.

顺便说一句，我会说我看重 P 胜过 S 胜过 H 胜过 E。

I've seen many companies that would reverse that scale.

我见过很多公司都想扭转这一规模。

And by the way, there's industries where it's very required.

顺便说一句，有些行业非常需要它。

You don't want a bunch of people running around and constantly telling you to solve some different problem.

您不希望一群人跑来跑去并不断告诉您解决一些不同的问题。

I just need people that can do this job that we give them super, super well.

我只需要能够非常非常出色地完成我们为他们提供的这项工作的人。

And it depends a bit what your personality is and what your company's culture is and so on.

这在一定程度上取决于你的个性以及你公司的文化等等。

So it's not actually that unbelievable that I might value the E over the P.

因此，我可能更看重 E 而不是 P，这实际上并不令人难以置信。

Anybody who knows me, that's probably not true, but for a reference check, you can probably not give that away.

任何认识我的人都知道，这可能不是真的，但为了进行背景调查，你可能不能透露这一点。

Lenny Rachitsky: Wow.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：哇。

That was gold.

那是金子。

I hadn't heard these reference check insights.

我没有听说过这些背景调查的见解。

And so I'm really happy we got to that.

所以我真的很高兴我们做到了这一点。

Maybe one last question on reference checks.

也许是关于背景调查的最后一个问题。

How often do you find that a reference check leads to you not hiring someone, just ballpark?

您是否经常发现，背景调查导致您不聘用某个人，而只是粗略估计一下？

Or is that hard to say?

或者这很难说？

Shishir Mehrotra: All the time.

Shishir Mehrotra：一直如此。

And I will say I try to do them as early in the process as practical if it's possible.

我会说，如果可能的话，我会尝试在可行的情况下尽早完成这些工作。

Because I think it's actually the worst feeling for an interviewee to go through a process and then get dinged at the reference check stage.

因为我认为，对于面试者来说，经历一个流程然后在背景调查阶段受到打击实际上是最糟糕的感觉。

It's a really crappy experience for the candidate.

对于候选人来说，这真是一次糟糕的经历。

And obviously you have to be careful about not ruining anything for them.

显然你必须小心不要毁掉他们的任何东西。

You can't always do the reference check as early as you can.

你不可能总是尽早进行背景调查。

When you're inside a company, when you're inside Google or Facebook or so on, you can generally do them even before you enter.

当你在一家公司内部，当你在谷歌或Facebook等公司内部时，你通常可以在进入之前就做这些事情。

It's an expectation of we're going to hear a little bit about people in that process.

我们期望我们能在这个过程中听到一些关于人们的信息。

And I generally value the reference check over interview signals.

我通常更看重背景调查而不是面试信号。

If I had to stack rank in interviews what is the best signal, the reference check is the top of the list.

如果我必须在面试中排名，最好的信号是什么，背景调查是列表的顶部。

Those people, they worked with this person sometimes for years, their knowledge, what you're going to get out of 30 minutes of artificial scenarios, it's just never going to compare with what a good reference check will give you.

这些人，他们有时与这个人一起工作了好几年，他们的知识，你将从 30 分钟的人工场景中得到的东西，永远无法与良好的背景调查给你的东西相比。

Shishir Mehrotra: And then the second best thing I value is anything that feels like a real work exercise, which is also...

Shishir Mehrotra：然后我看重的第二件事是任何感觉像是真正的工作练习的东西，这也是......

Even that is hard because some people, their skillset doesn't naturally lead to a compressed time work exercise.

即使这也很困难，因为有些人的技能组合并不能自然地导致压缩时间的工作练习。

But we do a thing for basically all our roles where at the start of the interview loop, the candidate presents to everyone on the loop and we invite some other people in the company to attend too.

但我们基本上为所有角色做了一件事，在面试循环开始时，候选人向循环中的每个人展示，我们也邀请公司中的其他人参加。

For a while it was open the whole company.

有一段时间，整个公司都开放了。

Now we're big enough where that's not practical.

现在我们已经足够大了，但这是不切实际的。

But the original is very simple.

但原文却很简单。

At the beginning of the loop, the person presents.

在循环开始时，该人出现。

And generally for most roles, there's a exercise that they do, but about half the time is spent on them presenting whatever they want.

一般来说，对于大多数角色来说，他们都会做一些练习，但大约一半的时间都花在展示他们想要的任何东西上。

They can talk about themselves.

他们可以谈论自己。

They can teach us something and then another half is we've given them a prompt, something that we want to direct.

他们可以教我们一些东西，然后我们给他们一个提示，一些我们想要指导的东西。

Shishir Mehrotra: One of the things that I think when you're doing interviewing, one way to think about it, I call it home court, away court, neutral court, you want interviews to balance in all those different spheres.

Shishir Mehrotra：我在采访时想到的一件事，一种思考方式，我称之为主场、客场、中立场地，你希望采访在所有这些不同的领域保持平衡。

So a common mistake people make is they do all questions in home court.

所以人们常犯的一个错误是他们在主场做所有问题。

"Hey.

“嘿。

If you're joining Airbnb, what would you do about X?" And what is the candidate going to say?

如果你要加入 Airbnb，你会对 X 做什么？”候选人会说什么？

They clearly can't be as thoughtful as you.

他们显然不可能像你那么周到。

They haven't thought about it nearly as much as you have.

他们几乎没有像你一样考虑过这个问题。

So really what you're testing is, "Did they come to the same answer that we did?" which is a pretty crappy way to judge someone.

所以你真正要测试的是，“他们得到的答案和我们得到的答案一样吗？”这是判断某人的一种非常蹩脚的方式。

Home court questions tend to be tough.

主场问题往往很棘手。

You have to be very careful about how you do them.

你必须非常小心如何去做。

Away court questions can also be tough.

客场的问题也可能很棘手。

This person, you say, "How did you solve this problem?" And they say, "Well, we did this thing." And you don't really know was that problem actually hard?

这个人，你说，你是怎么解决这个问题的？他们说：“好吧，我们做了这件事。”你真的不知道这个问题真的很难吗？

Was it somebody else was telling them what to do?

是其他人告诉他们该怎么做吗？

Are they just not telling you the whole story of what happened and so on?

他们只是没有告诉你发生的事情的整个故事等等吗？

Shishir Mehrotra: So you try really hard to make...

Shishir Mehrotra：所以你非常努力地做......

Most of our interviews are done neutral court.

我们的大部分采访都是在中立的法庭上进行的。

So the vast majority teleporter question is a very neutral question.

所以绝大多数传送器问题都是一个非常中立的问题。

You don't have to know anything about Coda.

您不必了解有关 Coda 的任何信息。

I don't have to know anything about Airbnb or wherever.

我不需要了解有关 Airbnb 或其他任何地方的任何信息。

I can just ask you this question.

我只能问你这个问题。

But this one thing, the presentation is the away court question.

但有一件事，演示是客场问题。

You now have an opportunity to talk about yourself in this new way.

您现在有机会以这种新的方式谈论自己。

And it's super interesting what people do.

人们所做的事情非常有趣。

I mean, I've seen people use that time...

我的意思是，我见过人们利用那段时间......

I often tell people it's the brag session, but this is like...

我经常告诉人们这是吹牛会议，但这就像......

And for product managers...

而对于产品经理来说...

We do it for every role, but it's like recruiters, salespeople, marketers.

我们为每个角色都这样做，比如招聘人员、销售人员、营销人员。

Shishir Mehrotra: We tell them, "We're going to go through this whole interview process.

Shishir Mehrotra：我们告诉他们，“我们将完成整个面试过程。

And at most companies you talk to six different people and six little segments.

在大多数公司，你会与六个不同的人和六个小部分进行交谈。

And at the end of the day you say, 'Gosh.

一天结束时你会说，‘天哪。

I really wish they had learned this about me.'" And I tell them, "Don't leave this with that feeling.

我真希望他们了解我这一点。’”我告诉他们，“不要带着那种感觉离开。

What do you want us to know about you?

您想让我们了解您的哪些信息？

All our questions are...

我们所有的问题都是...

In some cases we're trying to lower bound you, like, 'How bad could this be?' I want you to upper bound us.

在某些情况下，我们会试图降低你的界限，例如，“这会有多糟糕？”我要你限制我们。

I want you to tell us what's really amazing here." And so we'll have the presenter go through that process.

我想让你告诉我们这里到底有什么神奇之处。”因此，我们将让演示者完成该过程。

And what they choose to talk about is very important.

他们选择谈论的内容非常重要。

How they choose to present it is very important.

他们选择如何呈现它非常重要。

But I do it as upper bounding.

但我把它作为上限。

But if I had to stack rank in interviewing, what do I look for?

但如果我必须在面试中排名，我会寻找什么？

Reference check at the top, work, product and presentation next, and then all the interviews.

首先是背景调查，其次是工作、产品和演示，然后是所有面试。

When they disagree, that's the order we judge.

当他们不同意时，这就是我们判断的顺序。

Lenny Rachitsky: Shishir, I feel like you have five books in you that you need to write on so many of these topics.

Lenny Rachitsky：Shishir，我觉得你有五本书需要写，涉及很多这些主题。

This is such good stuff.

这真是个好东西。

I wish I could keep going.

我希望我能继续走下去。

I know you have to run.

我知道你必须跑。

So we have this final lightning round.

所以我们有最后的闪电回合。

So I'm going to ask you five questions.

所以我要问你五个问题。

There's one at the end I didn't tell you about ahead of time, so it's going to be a surprise.

最后有一个我没有提前告诉你的，所以这会是一个惊喜。

And so I'm just going to ask you these quick questions.

所以我只想问你这些简单的问题。

Let me know what comes to mind.

让我知道我想到了什么。

Okay.

好的。

First question, just what are two, three books that you find that you recommend most to other people?

第一个问题，您认为最向其他人推荐的两三本书是什么？

Oh, pulling out the bookshelf.

哦，把书架拉出来。

Shishir Mehrotra: Pull up .

Shishir Mehrotra：拉起来。

One I already said and we talked about.

我已经说过并且我们讨论过这一点。

So this would take two of the slots.

所以这将占用两个插槽。

The next one on my list is Switch by Chip and Dan Heath, How to Change Things When Change Is Hard.

我名单上的下一本是 Chip 和 Dan Heath 的《Switch》，《如何在改变困难时改变事物》。

The other one, this is probably a surprising one, it's called Understanding Comics by Scott McCloud.

另一本，这可能是一本令人惊讶的书，它的名字叫《理解漫画》，作者是斯科特·麦克劳德。

Shishir Mehrotra: Super fun book.

Shishir Mehrotra：超级有趣的书。

It's a comic book about comic books and you don't have to like comic books at all to love this book.

这是一本关于漫画书的漫画书，你不必完全喜欢漫画书才能喜欢这本书。

It's basically...

基本上是...

The starting point is over time communication has drifted at two extremes.

起点是随着时间的推移，沟通已经走向两个极端。

So one is we've gotten very good at written form and the other is we've gotten very good at art, single pieces of art.

因此，一是我们非常擅长书面形式，二是我们非常擅长艺术，单件艺术作品。

And comics are the hybrid.

漫画是混合体。

They are drawing mixed with writing.

他们将绘画与写作结合起来。

Sometimes I think he calls it...

有时候我觉得他是这样称呼的...

Oh, God.

哦，上帝。

He had a good term for it that I'm now forgetting, but he describes comics really well and he goes through the actual reasoning of why comics are structured the way they are.

他有一个很好的术语，我现在已经忘记了，但他对漫画的描述非常好，并且他对漫画为何如此构建进行了实际推理。

And one of the reasons it's so important to me is, and you could probably tell from how we talked about different things, is often a diagram that crystallizes something.

它对我如此重要的原因之一是，你可能可以从我们如何谈论不同的事情中看出，它通常是一个使某些东西具体化的图表。

The art of storytelling, diagramming, so on, I think is so critical for basically any part of life.

我认为讲故事、图表等艺术对于生活的几乎任何部分都至关重要。

And this book, it's so thought-provoking on how to do it.

而这本书，关于如何做到这一点，非常发人深省。

Understanding Comics by Scott McCloud.

斯科特·麦克劳德的《理解漫画》。

Lenny Rachitsky: Understanding Comics.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：理解漫画。

Wow.

哇。

Good choice.

不错的选择。

Okay.

好的。

Favorite recent movie or TV show?

最近最喜欢的电影或电视节目？

Shishir Mehrotra: Okay.

希希尔·梅赫罗特拉：好的。

Couple that come to mind.

想到的情侣。

Only Murders in the Building is a really fun one.

只有大楼谋杀案才是真正有趣的一部。

And my family got really into the Marvel series during the pandemic.

在大流行期间，我的家人非常喜欢漫威系列。

And so WandaVision, if anybody hasn't seen that.

还有《旺达幻视》（WandaVision），如果有人还没有看过的话。

If you're not into superhero stuff and so on, which I'm not really that...

如果你不喜欢超级英雄之类的东西，我并不是那么喜欢......

I'm actually more of a DC comics person.

其实我更喜欢 DC 漫画。

I like Superman.

我喜欢超人。

But WandaVision is one of the best pieces of art that I've seen done in a very long time.

但《旺达幻视》是我很长一段时间以来见过的最好的艺术作品之一。

Very well done show.

表演非常好。

Lenny Rachitsky: I feel with that show I had to...

Lenny Rachitsky：我觉得在那个节目中我必须......

I gave up initially.

我最初放弃了。

I'm like, "What the hell is this?

我想，“这到底是什么？

What is going on?"

这是怎么回事？”

Lenny Rachitsky: And on the flip side, Only Murders in the Building.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：另一方面，《只有大楼里的谋杀案》。

I don't know if you've seen the second season yet, but I'm just like...

不知道你有没有看过第二季，但我只是想……

I'm done with it.

我已经完成了。

I'm just tired of it now.

我现在只是厌倦了。

I don't know what they're doing.

我不知道他们在做什么。

Shishir Mehrotra: Oh, yeah?

Shishir Mehrotra：哦，是吗？

We're only one episode into the second season, so we'll see.

第二季才播出一集，所以我们拭目以待。

Maybe we'll give up too.

也许我们也会放弃。

Shishir Mehrotra: The preseason was so good.

Shishir Mehrotra：季前赛非常棒。

.

。

And it's all about podcasters.

这都是关于播客的。

Lenny Rachitsky: It's like so meta around podcasters.

Lenny Rachitsky：这就像播客周围的元数据。

Oh, man.

哦，伙计。

Okay.

好的。

Good segue.

好的继续。

Okay.

好的。

Favorite interview question/ you may have already answered this.

最喜欢的面试问题/您可能已经回答过这个问题。

Shishir Mehrotra: The teleporter one is definitely my favorite.

Shishir Mehrotra：传送器绝对是我的最爱。

My second favorite one, if I was going to give you a different one, is I have a series of questions around...

我第二喜欢的一个，如果我要给你一个不同的，是我有一系列的问题......

Let me pull it here so I give you what the real question is, but is basically around a dashboard prompt.

让我把它拉到这里，以便我告诉您真正的问题是什么，但基本上是围绕仪表板提示。

And the starting point of the question is, "Pick a product." I say, "Your favorite technical product." And the constraint is, "It can't be something that you built, worked on or competed with.

问题的出发点是“选择一个产品”。我说：“你最喜欢的技术产品。”限制是，“它不能是你建造、工作或与之竞争的东西。

It's got to be in the space that you're not an expert in." And I generally ask people why, which is actually a really interesting passion test.

它必须是在你不是专家的领域。”我通常会问人们为什么，这实际上是一个非常有趣的激情测试。

And then I'll ask people, "Design the one- page dashboard for that product.

然后我会问人们，“为该产品设计一页仪表板。

If you're the CEO, general manager, whatever, you run that product, what's on the dashboard?

如果你是首席执行官、总经理，无论什么，你运行该产品，仪表板上有什么？

Why?" It's an interesting question, E type question of like, "Can you tell what's important for this product or not?"

为什么？”这是一个有趣的问题，E 型问题，比如“你能说出什么对这个产品重要吗？”

Shishir Mehrotra: And then I ask them to basically redesign the product.

Shishir Mehrotra：然后我要求他们基本上重新设计产品。

And the way I do it is, "You've been hired by a competitor to design a me too version of product.

我的做法是，“你被竞争对手雇佣来设计一款我也是的产品。

I'm going to leave aside for a moment that why you would want to build a me too version.

我将暂时搁置一下为什么您想要构建一个“我也是”版本。

What is the bare minimum of what you need to build?" And then I tell them, "You ran out of resources.

你需要建造的最低限度是什么？”然后我告诉他们，“你们的资源用完了。

You get a quarter of the scope and a quarter of the..." Or, "You get quarter of the time and a quarter of the team.

你得到了四分之一的范围和四分之一的……”或者，“你得到了四分之一的时间和四分之一的团队。

What do you actually build?" And then I get down to the other side of, "You've decided you can differentiate in only one place.

你实际上建造什么？”然后我转向另一面，“你已经决定你只能在一个地方与众不同。

What do you do to differentiate?" And so there are a series of questions that are basically a form of PSHE, but just formed around a new problem space that lets people wander a little bit.

你要做什么来区分？”所以有一系列问题基本上是 PSHE 的一种形式，但只是围绕一个新的问题空间形成，让人们稍微徘徊一下。

I've seen some really amazing answers to that.

我见过一些非常令人惊奇的答案。

Lenny Rachitsky: There's also a lot of question elements to this sequence.

Lenny Rachitsky：这个序列还有很多问题元素。

Wow.

哇。

Excellent.

出色的。

Okay.

好的。

Who else in the industry do you respect as a thought leader?

您还尊敬业内谁作为思想领袖？

Who comes to mind?

我想到了谁？

Shishir Mehrotra: Other than you?

Shishir Mehrotra：除了你之外？

I have to ask.

我得问一下。

Present company excluded?

现在的公司除外？

Shishir Mehrotra: By the way, your newsletter is one of my top reads.

Shishir Mehrotra：顺便说一句，您的时事通讯是我最常阅读的内容之一。

Shishir Mehrotra: I think that yours and Ben Thompson from Stratechery are two of the ones that...

Shishir Mehrotra：我认为你和来自 Stratechery 的 Ben Thompson 是其中的两个......

I think you both have a very natural instinct for writing and synthesizing things that people are feeling with a clarity that's really helpful.

我认为你们都有一种非常自然的本能，能够清晰地写作和综合人们感受到的东西，这非常有帮助。

So I really appreciate that.

所以我真的很感激。

Shishir Mehrotra: I mean, I think the rituals process has exposed me to some really amazing leaders.

Shishir Mehrotra：我的意思是，我认为仪式过程让我接触到了一些非常出色的领导者。

Talked about Ariana.

谈到阿丽亚娜。

I always learn a lot when I talk to Ariana.

当我和阿丽亚娜交谈时，我总是学到很多东西。

has contributed a bunch.

贡献了一堆。

I think he's really helpful and is...

我认为他真的很有帮助，而且...

And I can't believe he basically had no Twitter followers at the beginning of the pandemic.

我不敢相信在大流行开始时他基本上没有推特粉丝。

And his tweet are just total gold and so insightful and well put together.

他的推文简直就是黄金，非常有洞察力，而且组合得很好。

Fidji Simo is someone that I learned a lot from.

Fidji Simo 是我从他身上学到很多东西的人。

She now runs Instacart.

她现在经营 Instacart。

Daniel from Spotify, Daniel Ek.

Spotify 的丹尼尔，丹尼尔·埃克。

I think he's got this really unique way of thinking about the world, and he's also one of the few people that can hold a very long-term view and a very short-term view at the same time.

我认为他对世界的思考方式非常独特，而且他也是少数几个能够同时持有非常长期的观点和非常短期的观点的人之一。

Fantastic ethics.

奇妙的道德。

I'd also say my entire board, Reid, Reid Hoffman, , Mamoon Hamid, Quentin Clark, Sarah Guo.

我还要说我的整个董事会，里德，里德霍夫曼，马蒙哈米德，昆汀克拉克，莎拉郭。

I think they're all amazing and I'm super lucky to have a group of people I can call with questions.

我认为他们都很棒，我非常幸运能够有一群人可以打电话提出问题。

Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

Someone's going to have a lot of work on these show notes.

有人会在这些演出笔记上做很多工作。

That list.

那个清单。

Okay.

好的。

Final question.

最后一个问题。

What's your go-to karaoke song or dance move at a wedding?

您在婚礼上最常唱的卡拉 OK 歌曲或舞蹈动作是什么？

Shishir Mehrotra: Karaoke song is If I Had $1000000 by the Barenaked Ladies, and it's a...

Shishir Mehrotra：卡拉 OK 歌曲是 Barenaked Ladies 的《如果我有 1000000 美元》，这是一首......

If people don't remember the song, part of the reason it's my favorite is I'm a very mediocre singer and you don't have to be that good a singer and everybody can sing along so you can bring everybody into it.

如果人们不记得这首歌，我最喜欢它的部分原因是我是一个非常平庸的歌手，你不必是一个很好的歌手，每个人都可以跟着唱，这样你就可以让每个人都参与其中。

And it's just such a fun song, If I Had $1000000.

《如果我有 100 万美元》是一首非常有趣的歌曲。

Lenny Rachitsky: You're as thoughtful about your karaoke songs as you are about everything else you're doing.

Lenny Rachitsky：你对你的卡拉 OK 歌曲和你所做的其他事情一样深思熟虑。

Shishir, thank you so much for being on this podcast.

Shishir，非常感谢您参加这个播客。

You've set a really high bar for CO guests, so we'll see who comes up next.

您为 CO 客人设定了非常高的标准，所以我们将看看下一个出现的是谁。

Two final questions.

最后两个问题。

Where can folks find you online if they want to reach out or learn more?

如果人们想联系或了解更多信息，可以在哪里找到您？

And how can listeners be useful to you?

听众如何对你有用？

Shishir Mehrotra: Okay.

希希尔·梅赫罗特拉：好的。

I'll give the same answer to both.

我会给两者相同的答案。

Well, I'm easy to find, one of the benefits of having a not very common name.

嗯，我很容易找到，这是拥有一个不太常见的名字的好处之一。

It's easy to find me on basically every platform so you can find me on Twitter.

基本上在每个平台上都很容易找到我，所以你也可以在 Twitter 上找到我。

It's easy to DM me, Shishir@Coda.io.

很容易通过 DM 联系我，Shishir@Coda.io。

It'll get to right to me.

它会适合我的。

But in terms of being useful to me and also finding me, I would highly recommend joining the Rituals of Great Teams Braintrust.

但就对我有用并找到我而言，我强烈建议加入伟大团队的仪式智囊团。

And I think it's a pretty fun experience to get a chance to contribute to a book like that.

我认为有机会为这样的书做出贡献是一次非常有趣的经历。

And hopefully if you've made it this far in the episode, then you probably are interested.

希望如果您已经在这一集中做到了这一点，那么您可能会感兴趣。

And so I think you'll find it interesting.

所以我想你会发现它很有趣。

And I'm having a lot of fun with the people in that Braintrust.

我和智囊团的人在一起玩得很开心。

Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

I'm definitely going to join.

我一定会加入。

Thank you, Shishir.

谢谢你，希希尔。

Shishir Mehrotra: Yeah.

希希尔·梅赫罗特拉：是的。

All right.

好的。

Thank you so much, Lenny.

非常感谢你，莱尼。

That was really fun.

那真的很有趣。

Lenny Rachitsky: Thank you so much for listening.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：非常感谢您的聆听。

If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or your favorite podcast app.

如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.

您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。