The original growth hacker reveals his secrets | Sean Ellis (author of “Hacking Growth”)

Lenny Rachitsky: The Sean Ellis test, such a seemingly simple idea that has had such a profound impact on the startup world.

Lenny Rachitsky：Sean Ellis 测试，看似简单的想法，却对创业界产生了深远的影响。

Sean Ellis: The question is, how would you feel if you could no longer use this product?

Sean Ellis：问题是，如果你不能再使用这个产品，你会有什么感觉？

Once you got a high enough percentage of users saying they'd be very disappointed, most of those products did pretty well.

一旦有足够多的用户表示他们会非常失望，那么大多数产品都会表现得很好。

If you felt too low, those products tended to suffer.

如果你感觉太低落，这些产品往往会受到影响。

Lenny Rachitsky: Say someone is listening and they're like, "Okay.

Lenny Rachitsky：假设有人在听，他们会说：“好吧。

Man, I'm getting like 10%.

伙计，我已经拿到了 10% 左右。

I don't know what to do." What do you find often works?

我不知道该怎么办。”您发现什么通常有效？

Sean Ellis: Just ignore the people who say they'd be somewhat disappointed.

肖恩·埃利斯：忽略那些说他们会有些失望的人。

They're telling you it's a nice to have.

他们告诉你，拥有它真是太好了。

If you start paying attention to what your somewhat disappointed users are telling you and then you start tweaking onboarding and product based on their feedback, maybe you're going to dilute it for your must have users.

如果你开始关注有些失望的用户告诉你的内容，然后你开始根据他们的反馈调整入门和产品，也许你会淡化你必须拥有的用户的需求。

Lenny Rachitsky: Moving retention often is really hard, but I guess it sounds like there's often something you can do.

Lenny Rachitsky：提高留存率确实很难，但我想听起来你经常可以做一些事情。

Sean Ellis: It's usually much more function of onboarding to the right user experience than it is about the kind of the tactical things that people try to do to improve retention.

Sean Ellis：通常更多的功能是引导正确的用户体验，而不是人们试图提高保留率的战术性事情。

Lenny Rachitsky: What are like three or four things that you think people should definitely try to help improve activation?

Lenny Rachitsky：您认为人们绝对应该尝试帮助提高激活度的三到四件事是什么？

Lenny Rachitsky: Today, my guest is Sean Ellis.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：今天，我的客人是肖恩·埃利斯。

Sean is one of the earliest and most influential thinkers and operators in the world of growth.

肖恩是增长领域最早、最有影响力的思想家和经营者之一。

He coined the term growth hacking, invented the ICE prioritization framework, was one of the earliest people to use freemium as a growth strategy, and maybe most famously developed the Sean Ellis test to help you understand if you have product market fit, which a large percentage of founders use today and profoundly impacted the way startups are built.

他创造了“增长黑客”一词，发明了 ICE 优先级框架，是最早使用免费增值作为增长策略的人之一，也许最著名的是开发了肖恩·埃利斯测试，以帮助您了解您的产品是否适合市场，当今很大一部分创始人都在使用该测试，并对初创公司的建立方式产生了深远的影响。

Over the course of his career, Sean was head of growth at Dropbox and Eventbrite, helped companies like Microsoft and Newbank refine their growth strategy, was on the founding team of LogMeIn, which eventually sold for over $4 billion, and he's the author of one of the most popular growth books of all time called Hacking Growth.

在他的职业生涯中，Sean 曾担任 Dropbox 和 Eventbrite 的增长主管，帮助 Microsoft 和 Newbank 等公司完善增长战略，是 LogMeIn 的创始团队成员，该公司最终售价超过 40 亿美元，他还是有史以来最受欢迎的增长书籍之一《Hacking Growth》的作者。

In our conversation, we dive deep into two topics.

在我们的谈话中，我们深入探讨了两个话题。

One, how to know if you've got product market fit and what to do if you don't, and two, how to figure out how to grow once you've found product market fit.

第一，如何知道您的产品是否适合市场，如果不适合该怎么办；第二，一旦找到产品市场适合，如何确定如何实现增长。

Lenny Rachitsky: If you're in the early stages of a new product wrangling with product market fit or trying to figure out how to jumpstart or further accelerate growth for your product, this episode is for you.

Lenny Rachitsky：如果您正处于新产品的早期阶段，正在与产品市场契合度进行争论，或者试图弄清楚如何快速启动或进一步加速产品的增长，那么本集适合您。

If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube.

如果您喜欢这个播客，请不要忘记订阅并在您最喜欢的播客应用程序或 YouTube 中关注它。

It's the best way to avoid missing feature episodes and it helps the podcast tremendously.

这是避免错过专题节目的最佳方式，并且对播客有很大帮助。

With that, I bring you Sean Ellis.

接下来，我为您带来肖恩·埃利斯。

Lenny Rachitsky: Sean, thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast.

Lenny Rachitsky：肖恩，非常感谢您来到这里，欢迎来到播客。

Sean Ellis: Thanks, Lenny.

肖恩·埃利斯：谢谢，莱尼。

I'm super excited to be on with you.

我非常高兴能和你在一起。

Lenny Rachitsky: There's so much that I want to talk about.

Lenny Rachitsky：我想说的有很多。

There's so many directions we can go, but to keep it focused, I want to spend time on two areas.

我们可以走的方向有很多，但为了保持重点，我想在两个领域花时间。

I want to talk about how to know if you have product market fit and what to do once you have product market fit in terms of figuring out how to grow.

我想谈谈如何知道您的产品是否适合市场，以及一旦您的产品适合市场，在弄清楚如何增长方面该怎么做。

I know these things are very linked.

我知道这些事情是紧密相连的。

I know you spent a lot of time on these things.

我知道你在这些事情上花了很多时间。

How does this feel?

这感觉如何？

Sean Ellis: Sounds perfect.

肖恩·埃利斯：听起来很完美。

Yeah, let's do it.

是的，我们就这么做吧。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

Okay, amazing.

好吧，太棒了。

Let's talk about, first of all, the Sean Ellis test, slash something people call sometimes the product fit test.

首先，我们来谈谈肖恩·埃利斯测试（Sean Ellis test），削减人们有时称之为产品适合性测试的东西。

Such a seemingly simple idea that has had such a profound impact on the startup world.

这个看似简单的想法对创业界产生了如此深远的影响。

I've never actually seen you talk about the history of this thing, how you came up with these questions, how you came up 40%, the whole journey of this thing.

我从来没有真正见过你谈论这件事的历史，你是如何提出这些问题的，你是如何得出40%的，这件事的整个历程。

So let's talk about this.

那么我们来谈谈这个吧。

But first of all, can you just tell people what is the Sean Ellis test for folks that aren't exactly familiar with this?

但首先，你能告诉人们什么是 Sean Ellis 测试吗？对于那些不太熟悉这个测试的人来说？

Sean Ellis: It's a simple question that helps you figure out, does anyone consider your product a must-have, or ideally, who and how many people consider it, but ultimately it's about trying to figure out is your product a must-have, which could be equated to having product market fit.

肖恩·埃利斯：这是一个简单的问题，可以帮助你弄清楚，是否有人认为你的产品是必备品，或者理想情况下，谁以及有多少人考虑它，但最终要弄清楚你的产品是否是必备品，这可以等同于让产品适合市场。

And so the question is, how would you feel if you could no longer use this product?

那么问题来了，如果你不能再使用这个产品，你会有什么感觉？

And I give them the choice, very disappointed, somewhat disappointed, or even not disappointed or not applicable, I've already stopped using the product.

我给他们选择，非常失望，有些失望，甚至不失望或不适用，我已经停止使用该产品了。

And what I'm trying to find are those people who say, "I would be very disappointed if I could no longer use this product," then that's a really powerful vein to dig into when you discover that you actually have some people who would give a crap if your product disappears.

我试图找到的是那些说“如果我不能再使用这个产品，我会非常失望”的人，那么当你发现你实际上有一些人会在乎你的产品消失时，这就是一个非常有力的线索。

Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by Gamma, an entirely new way to present your ideas powered by AI.

Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 Gamma 为您带来，这是一种由人工智能驱动的全新方式来展示您的想法。

If you hate designing slides and dread that feeling of staring at a blank slide, Gamma is here to help.

如果您讨厌设计幻灯片并且害怕盯着空白幻灯片的感觉，Gamma 可以为您提供帮助。

Just upload your PRD and turn it into a beautiful ready-to-present presentation in seconds.

只需上传您的 PRD，并在几秒钟内将其转变为精美的现成演示文稿。

Gamma works with all types of formats from Google Docs, PDFs, to PowerPoint.

Gamma 适用于从 Google 文档、PDF 到 PowerPoint 的所有类型的格式。

You can even drop in a link to your favorite Lenny's newsletter post and turn it into a presentation for your team.

您甚至可以添加您最喜欢的 Lenny 时事通讯帖子的链接，并将其转变为您团队的演示文稿。

Lenny Rachitsky: Gamma has become one of the fastest growing AI web products in the world, adding 20 million new users just this past year and is setting its sights on becoming the modern alternative to PowerPoint.

Lenny Rachitsky：Gamma 已成为世界上增长最快的 AI 网络产品之一，仅在去年就增加了 2000 万新用户，并致力于成为 PowerPoint 的现代替代品。

Whether you have design skills or not, Gamma can save you hours of time synthesizing your ideas and shaping your content.

无论您是否具备设计技能，Gamma 都可以为您节省数小时的时间来综合您的想法和塑造您的内容。

Visit gamma.app and use promo code LENNY to get a free month of Gamma Pro.

访问 gamma.app 并使用促销代码 LENNY 即可免费获得一个月的 Gamma Pro。

That's G-A-M-M-A, .app.

那是 G-A-M-M-A，.app。

Lenny Rachitsky: Let me tell you about CommandBar.

Lenny Rachitsky：让我向您介绍一下 CommandBar。

If you're like me and most users I've built product for, you probably find those little in-product pop-ups really annoying.

如果您像我和我为其构建产品的大多数用户一样，您可能会发现那些产品内的小弹出窗口真的很烦人。

"Want to take a tour?

“想要参观一下吗？

Check out this new feature." And these pop-ups are becoming less and less effective since most users don't read what they say.

看看这个新功能。”由于大多数用户不阅读他们所说的内容，因此这些弹出窗口的效果越来越差。

They just want to close them as soon as possible.

他们只是想尽快关闭它们。

But every product builder knows that users need help to learn the ins and outs of your product.

但每个产品构建者都知道，用户需要帮助来了解产品的细节。

We use so many products every day and we can't possibly know the ins and outs of everyone.

我们每天都会使用很多产品，我们不可能了解每个产品的来龙去脉。

Lenny Rachitsky: CommandBar is an AI-powered toolkit for product, growth, marketing and customer teams to help users get the most out of your product without annoying them.

Lenny Rachitsky：CommandBar 是一款由人工智能驱动的工具包，适用于产品、增长、营销和客户团队，可帮助用户充分利用您的产品，而不会打扰他们。

They use AI to get closer to user intent, so they have search and chat products that users describe what they're trying to do in their own words and then see personalized results like customer walkthroughs or actions.

他们使用人工智能来更接近用户意图，因此他们拥有搜索和聊天产品，用户可以用自己的话描述他们想要做什么，然后看到个性化结果，例如客户演练或操作。

And they do pop-ups too, but their nudges are based on in-product like confusion or intent classification, which makes them much less annoying and much more impactful.

他们也做弹出窗口，但他们的推动是基于产品内的混淆或意图分类，这使得它们不那么烦人，而且更有影响力。

This works for web apps, mobile apps, and websites.

这适用于网络应用程序、移动应用程序和网站。

And they work with industry-leading companies like Gusto, Freshworks, HashiCorp and LaunchDarkly.

他们与 Gusto、Freshworks、HashiCorp 和 LaunchDarkly 等行业领先公司合作。

Over 15 million end-users have interacted with CommandBar.

超过 1500 万最终用户与 CommandBar 进行过交互。

To try out CommandBar, you can sign up at commandbar.com/LENNY and you can unlock an extra 1,000 AI responses per month for any plan.

要试用 CommandBar，您可以在 commandbar.com/LENNY 注册，并且对于任何计划，您每月都可以解锁额外 1,000 个 AI 响应。

That's commandbar.com/LENNY.

那是commandbar.com/LENNY。

And the idea is that if you, 40% or more of people, say they'd be very disappointed if they can no longer use the product, you essentially have product market fit.

这个想法是，如果 40% 或更多的人表示，如果他们不能再使用该产品，他们会非常失望，那么您基本上就拥有了产品市场契合度。

Sean Ellis: I would say it's a leading indicator of product market fit.

Sean Ellis：我想说这是产品市场契合度的领先指标。

The lightning indicator is, do they actually keep using it?

闪电指标是，他们真的继续使用它吗？

So probably retention cohorts are more accurate, but the problem is, like your time at Airbnb, how long do you have to look at a retention cohort before you know that you've actually long-term retained someone?

因此，留存群组可能更准确，但问题是，就像您在 Airbnb 的经历一样，您需要查看留存群组多长时间才能知道您实际上长期留住了某人？

Sean Ellis: And so with this question, you can kind of find out day one, you don't need a good analytics system in place to be able to see if product market fit exists.

肖恩·埃利斯：因此，通过这个问题，您可以在第一天就发现，您不需要一个良好的分析系统就能够查看产品市场是否适合。

And so yeah, the 40% was not something I originally had in there.

是的，40% 并不是我最初放在那里的东西。

Originally, I was trying to have just a filter so that I was not treating all feedback from customers the same, but I was trying to find feedback from customers who actually really cared about the product.

最初，我只是想有一个过滤器，这样我就不会同等对待客户的所有反馈，但我试图找到真正关心该产品的客户的反馈。

And then was over time, at the time I was working for a couple of YC-backed companies, and so those companies were all pretty connected, and so I would share the question with a lot of other startups in Silicon Valley.

然后随着时间的推移，当时我正在为几家 YC 支持的公司工作，所以这些公司都非常有联系，所以我会与硅谷的许多其他初创公司分享这个问题。

And so over time, I started to see there was a pattern that once you got a high enough percentage of users saying they'd be very disappointed, most of those very disappointed without the product, most of those products did pretty well.

随着时间的推移，我开始发现一种模式，一旦有足够高比例的用户表示他们会非常失望，其中大多数人对没有该产品感到非常失望，那么大多数产品都会表现得很好。

And then if you felt too low, those products tended to suffer.

如果你感觉太低落，这些产品往往会受到影响。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, there's two things I want to definitely follow up on here.

Lenny Rachitsky：好的，有两件事我想明确跟进。

The first is such an important point that you made at the beginning when I introduced this test that you described it as a leading indicator of product market fit and actually retention, people actually using your product, the product actually being used by the market is the actual ultimate test.

首先，当我一开始介绍这个测试时，您就提出了一个非常重要的观点，您将其描述为产品市场契合度和实际保留率的领先指标，人们实际使用您的产品，市场实际使用的产品是实际的最终测试。

So the idea here is this is a good way to get a sense of, before you actually have data, are we headed in a good direction?

所以这里的想法是，这是一个很好的方式来了解，在你真正拥有数据之前，我们是否正朝着好的方向前进？

Could you speak more about that, of like, when to use this and when it's most useful in best ?

您能否详细谈谈这个问题，例如何时使用它以及何时它在 best 中最有用？

Sean Ellis: Yeah.

肖恩·埃利斯：是的。

I mean, so for me in particular, when I come into a company, my goal is to help them grow.

我的意思是，特别是对我来说，当我进入一家公司时，我的目标是帮助他们成长。

And so I don't want to put myself in a situation where I'm going to fail because no one actually cares about the product.

所以我不想让自己陷入一种会失败的境地，因为没有人真正关心这个产品。

And so it can really be asked at a company of any stage.

因此，任何阶段的公司都可以提出这个问题。

It's helpful to understand who your must have users are.

了解您必须拥有的用户是谁会很有帮助。

But essentially once you have even an MVP, like a very first MVP on the product, you can still get some useful feedback about the product if it's resonating with anyone.

但本质上，一旦你拥有了 MVP，比如产品的第一个 MVP，如果它能引起任何人的共鸣，你仍然可以获得一些关于该产品的有用反馈。

Sean Ellis: So I actually had a company where I had committed to work with them.

肖恩·埃利斯：所以我实际上有一家公司，我承诺与他们合作。

It was right after I left Dropbox and I committed to work with these guys for six months to help them grow.

就在我离开 Dropbox 后，我承诺与这些人一起工作六个月，以帮助他们成长。

I ran the question and it came back at only 7% of users saying they'd be very disappointed without the product.

我运行了这个问题，结果只有 7% 的用户表示如果没有该产品他们会非常失望。

And so I'm like, "I have six months to help them grow and they're only at 7% right now.

所以我想，“我有六个月的时间来帮助他们成长，但他们现在只有 7%。

It might take six months to get the 40%.

可能需要六个月才能获得 40%。

Am I doing them a disservice by being in a growth role and being on payroll during this period of time?" But fortunately with the signal and the information we got from the initial survey, we were able to get them at 40% in two weeks.

在这段时间里，我担任成长角色并在工资单上工作，这是否对他们造成了伤害？”但幸运的是，根据我们从最初调查中获得的信号和信息，我们能够在两周内获得 40% 的成功率。

Lenny Rachitsky: Wow.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：哇。

What did you do there just as a case study?

作为案例研究，你在那里做了什么？

Sean Ellis: Yeah.

肖恩·埃利斯：是的。

Yeah.

是的。

So the company called Lookout, it's a mobile security company, and now most of the things in Lookout are built into iPhones and Androids.

所以这家公司叫Lookout，它是一家移动安全公司，现在Lookout的大部分东西都内置到了iPhone和Android中。

But at that time, the product had everything from backup my data to find my lost phone to protecting your phone with a firewall and antivirus.

但当时，该产品拥有从备份数据到找到丢失的手机到使用防火墙和防病毒保护您的手机的一切功能。

And so when we ran this initial survey, I dug into the 7% who said they'd be very disappointed without the product and found that most of that 7% were focused on the antivirus functionality.

因此，当我们进行这项初步调查时，我深入研究了 7% 的人，他们表示如果没有该产品，他们会非常失望，并发现这 7% 的人中的大多数都关注防病毒功能。

So they were like, they know they need to protect their computer from viruses, smartphones were becoming more like computers, so it just made a lot of sense for them that they'd need to protect their phone.

所以他们就像，他们知道他们需要保护他们的计算机免受病毒侵害，智能手机变得越来越像计算机，所以对他们来说，他们需要保护他们的手机很有意义。

And interesting, at the time, I think there was only one kind of phone virus that had ever even happened, but it was a pretty easy mental leap for people.

有趣的是，当时，我认为只有一种电话病毒曾经发生过，但这对人们来说是一个相当容易的心理飞跃。

Sean Ellis: And so now we knew, okay, it's antivirus that people really valued.

Sean Ellis：所以现在我们知道，人们真正重视的是防病毒软件。

And so step one was just reposition the product on antivirus.

所以第一步就是重新定位产品的防病毒功能。

So that kind of creates a filter.

这样就创建了一个过滤器。

So anyone who now is coming in to sign up for the product who doesn't care about antivirus is not going to convert, and those who are excited about antivirus are going to convert.

因此，现在注册该产品的任何不关心防病毒的人都不会转变，而那些对防病毒感兴趣的人将会转变。

We already know from the initial survey that people value that after they convert.

从最初的调查中我们已经知道，人们在转变后会重视这一点。

So by setting the right expectations around it up front, you're going to bring people in with the right expectations.

因此，通过预先设定正确的期望，您将为人们带来正确的期望。

But then the second thing that we did was we streamlined onboarding so that the first thing that they did after signing up for the product was to set up the antivirus and then get a message "you're now protected from viruses."

但我们做的第二件事是简化了入职流程，以便他们在注册该产品后做的第一件事就是设置防病毒软件，然后收到一条消息“您现在已免受病毒侵害”。

Sean Ellis: And so it's really the combination of those two things.

肖恩·埃利斯：所以这实际上是这两件事的结合。

It's set the right expectations and then speed to value.

它设定正确的期望，然后加速实现价值。

And so the next cohort of people that we surveyed were at 40% saying they'd be very disappointed without the product.

因此，我们调查的下一批人中有 40% 的人表示，如果没有该产品，他们会非常失望。

So that literally took two weeks to make those changes.

所以实际上花了两周时间才做出这些改变。

Six months later, it was 60% on the score.

六个月后，分数达到了 60%。

And then I think they hit the billion dollar valuation four or five years later on ultimately being one of the early unicorns.

然后我认为四五年后他们的估值达到了十亿美元，最终成为早期的独角兽之一。

Sean Ellis: And interestingly, as all of those things were built into mobile phones now, they've completely changed the business, but they continue to do really well, but they've continued to iterate the business.

肖恩·埃利斯：有趣的是，由于所有这些东西现在都内置到手机中，他们彻底改变了业务，但他们仍然做得很好，但他们继续迭代业务。

I think that having that kind of finger on the pulse early in the business was important to build the muscle in the business to be really responsive as the market changed.

我认为，在业务的早期掌握这种脉搏对于增强业务实力以真正响应市场变化非常重要。

Lenny Rachitsky: Sean, this is already amazing.

Lenny Rachitsky：肖恩，这已经太棒了。

There's just a fractal of topics I want to explore from this very short conversation already.

我想从这个非常简短的对话中探索一些分形的主题。

So the first is just follow this thread of basically you're sharing kind of a growth strategy that I imagine you execute, is look for the percentage of people that would be very disappointed if your product went away, see who they are, see what they're excited about and lean into that both positioning-wise, onboarding-wise, and probably also cut out stuff from your product that they don't care about.

所以第一个就是遵循这个思路，基本上你正在分享一种我想你执行的增长策略，就是寻找如果你的产品消失，会非常失望的人的百分比，看看他们是谁，看看他们对什么感到兴奋，并在定位方面、入职方面进行倾斜，并且可能还从你的产品中删除他们不关心的东西。

Sean Ellis: Yeah.

肖恩·埃利斯：是的。

And I was coming at it from a marketing perspective initially.

我最初是从营销的角度来看待这个问题的。

Over time, I position myself more in a growth role with product and marketing as areas I could influence.

随着时间的推移，我将自己定位为成长角色，将产品和营销作为我可以影响的领域。

But as a marketer, I probably didn't have a lot of influence on a engineering founded company to say, "Let's cut out stuff." So it made more sense to say, "Let's just sequence the onboarding so that we're highlighting this and onboarding to this." That was a little easier to sell.

但作为一名营销人员，我可能对一家工程创立的公司没有太大影响力，无法说“让我们删掉一些东西吧”。因此，更有意义的是，“让我们对入职进行排序，以便我们突出显示这一点并对此进行入职。”这样卖起来容易一些。

Lenny Rachitsky: And just hearing that you can move this score so quickly without even changing the product substantially, I imagine what surprised a lot of people when you think about moving retention often is really hard.

Lenny Rachitsky：当你听说你可以这么快地改变这个分数，甚至不需要大幅改变产品时，我想当你想到经常改变留存率时，很多人会感到惊讶，这真的很难。

And maybe we talk about that, but I guess it sounds like there's often something you can do that's not very hard that might significantly shift this product market fit test.

也许我们会谈论这个，但我想这听起来像是你经常可以做一些并不难的事情，可能会显着改变这个产品的市场适合度测试。

Sean Ellis: Right.

肖恩·埃利斯：对。

And then that ultimately moving retention is really hard, but it's usually much more function of onboarding to the right user experience than it is about the tactical things that people try to do to improve retention.

最终提高留存率确实很困难，但通常更多的功能是引导正确的用户体验，而不是人们为提高留存率而尝试做的战术性事情。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

I want to put a pin on that and come back to that because a really important topic.

我想先强调一下这个问题，然后再回来讨论这个问题，因为这是一个非常重要的话题。

I'm going to come back to, say someone runs this survey and they get 40%, what should they have in their mind of like, "This is what this is telling me"?

我要回过头来，假设有人进行了这项调查，他们得到了 40%，那么他们心里应该有什么想法，比如“这就是告诉我的”？

Because I think a lot of people are like, "I got product market fit.

因为我认为很多人都会说，“我的产品适合市场。

I got this.

我明白了。

Let's go, go, go." What's the best way to think about what this tells you?

我们走吧，走吧，走吧。”思考这告诉你什么的最好方法是什么？

Sean Ellis: Yeah, I mean it tells you something really important, which is, you haven't created something that people don't care about.

肖恩·埃利斯：是的，我的意思是它告诉你一些非常重要的事情，那就是，你还没有创造出人们不关心的东西。

So that's an important insight.

所以这是一个重要的见解。

But until you deeply understand that product market fit, you kind of don't have the tools to be able to grow the business.

但在您深入了解产品市场契合度之前，您几乎不具备发展业务的工具。

So that's really the next step, is to dig in and figure out who considers it a must have, how are they using the product, what did they use before, what problem are they solving.

因此，下一步就是深入了解谁认为它是必须的，他们如何使用该产品，他们之前使用过什么，他们正在解决什么问题。

Sean Ellis: One of my favorite questions is...

肖恩·埃利斯：我最喜欢的问题之一是......

So I tend to have a lot of questions that I build off of that I'm using that filter, trying to drill into the users who say they'd be very disappointed without the product, and one of my favorite questions is, "What is the primary benefit that you get?" And then I use that initially as an open-ended question to kind of crowdsource different benefits people are getting.

因此，我倾向于在使用该过滤器的基础上提出很多问题，试图深入了解那些表示如果没有该产品他们会非常失望的用户，而我最喜欢的问题之一是“您获得的主要好处是什么？”然后我最初将其作为一个开放式问题来众包人们获得的不同好处。

But then I run another survey where I turn it into a multiple choice question, force them to pick one of four distinctive benefit statements.

但后来我进行了另一项调查，将其变成了多项选择题，迫使他们从四种独特的福利陈述中选择一种。

And then the question that follows on that next survey is, "Why is that benefit important to you?" And then I start to get really good context.

下一次调查的问题是：“为什么这个好处对你来说很重要？”然后我开始获得非常好的背景信息。

Sean Ellis: So I actually came up with this question when I was working with an early YC company called Xobni, which is inbox felt backwards.

Sean Ellis：所以，当我与一家名为 Xobni 的早期 YC 公司合作时，我实际上提出了这个问题，该公司的收件箱感觉是向后的。

And when I ran that question, basically the people who said they'd be very disappointed without the product we're focused on, "Xobni helps me find things faster in my email." So it's great to know, okay, that's the benefit.

当我提出这个问题时，基本上那些表示如果没有我们专注的产品他们会非常失望的人，“Xobni 帮助我在电子邮件中更快地找到东西。”所以很高兴知道，这就是好处。

But when I asked, "Why is that benefit important to you?" They said, "Oh, I'm drowning in email." I kept seeing that statement as a written statement.

但当我问：“为什么这个好处对你来说很重要？”他们说：“哦，我被电子邮件淹没了。”我一直将该声明视为书面声明。

And so when I then was trying to figure out how to acquire customers, when I tested "drowning in email?", that set such a good hook.

因此，当我试图弄清楚如何获取客户时，当我测试“淹没在电子邮件中？”时，这设置了一个很好的钩子。

That was the context that people were living in, that they were really responsive to the message of find things faster with Xobni and then a description of what Xobni is.

这就是人们生活的环境，他们对使用 Xobni 更快地找到东西以及对 Xobni 的描述的信息做出了真正的反应。

So I think when you can really dig into the context of why that must have benefit is important to people, you start to get the ingredients to build that flywheel that leads to long-term sustainable growth.

因此，我认为，当你真正深入了解为什么必须带来好处对人们很重要时，你就开始获得构建飞轮的要素，从而实现长期可持续增长。

Lenny Rachitsky: So what I'm hearing is whether you have 40%, whether you have 60% or even 7%, the actual best use of this tool is look at that percentage of highly disappointed and see what they're looking for, what they're excited about.

Lenny Rachitsky：所以我听到的是，无论你有 40%、60% 还是 7%，这个工具的实际最佳用途是查看高度失望的百分比，看看他们在寻找什么，他们对什么感到兴奋。

Sean Ellis: Start drilling in, start feeling back that onion-

肖恩·埃利斯：开始钻研，开始感受洋葱-

Sean Ellis: ...

肖恩·埃利斯：...

and just deeply understand them and make sure that ultimately your product roadmap is doubling down on the things that are important to your must-have customers.

并深入了解它们，并确保最终您的产品路线图加倍关注对您的必备客户来说很重要的事情。

Onboarding is bringing new people to the right experience.

入职培训正在为新人带来正确的体验。

Your messaging is setting the right expectations, your acquisition campaigns are targeting people who actually have the need.

您的信息传递正在设定正确的期望，您的收购活动针对的是真正有需要的人。

And so it's all about getting the right people to the right experience.

因此，一切都是为了让合适的人获得合适的体验。

And then even your engagement loop is about just reinforcing how to get people to experience that benefit more often.

然后，甚至你的参与循环也只是加强如何让人们更频繁地体验到这种好处。

Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

And the 40% threshold, so what you shared is you basically emerged from just looking at tons of startups doing the survey and finding a pattern.

40% 的门槛，所以你分享的是你基本上是通过查看大量初创公司进行调查并找到模式而得出的。

How firm is that 40%?

这40%有多坚定？

How big of a deal?

有多大的事？

Is it 39 versus 41?

是39还是41？

Sean Ellis: I don't think it's that firm.

肖恩·埃利斯：我认为没有那么坚定。

To me, I think the real power is having some kind of target for the team to be shooting for that basically says, "We're not going to aggressively start to grow until we hit this target." And I think that as just a focusing piece is really important because I think one of the biggest challenges in an early stage startup is half the people feel like we're years from having this product ready to grow, and half the people are like, "What are we waiting for?" Where if you can actually get people on the same page of what does product market fit look like for our business, and it's at that point that we're going to.

对我来说，我认为真正的力量是为团队设定某种目标，基本上就是说，“在我们达到这个目标之前，我们不会积极地开始增长。”我认为，作为一个焦点部分确实很重要，因为我认为早期初创公司面临的最大挑战之一是，有一半的人觉得我们距离这个产品准备好成长还有好几年的时间，还有一半的人会说，“我们还在等什么？”如果你真的能让人们对产品市场适合我们业务的情况达成一致，那么我们就要做到这一点。

Sean Ellis: Before I ever heard the term product market fit, I remember the conversations back at LogMeIn in the mid 2000s of kind of like, "When do we step on the gas?

Sean Ellis：在我听到产品市场契合这个词之前，我记得 2000 年代中期 LogMeIn 的对话有点像，“我们什么时候踩油门？

What is the combination of factors that need to be in place before we start pouring fuel on the early fire?" And so yeah, I think that kind of nail it then scale it.

在我们开始火上浇油之前，需要考虑哪些因素？”所以，是的，我认为这种方法是先钉住它，然后再扩展它。

It's probably been a term that's been around for decades now, but it's all kind of pointing to that same concept of product market fit.

这个术语可能已经存在了几十年了，但它都指向相同的产品市场契合度概念。

Lenny Rachitsky: How often have you seen false positives with this test where someone gets 40% and something is not right, they're actually far from it?

Lenny Rachitsky：在这项测试中，您是否经常看到误报，即有人得到了 40% 的结果，但有些地方不对劲，他们实际上离正确的结果还很远？

Or is it generally pretty accurate?

或者它通常相当准确吗？

Sean Ellis: If you're having people say that they'd be very disappointed without your product, that's a really good sign.

肖恩·埃利斯：如果人们说如果没有你的产品他们会非常失望，这是一个非常好的迹象。

What I can tell you is that not necessarily a false positive, but what is driving people to say they'd be very disappointed.

我可以告诉你的是，这不一定是误报，但是什么促使人们说他们会非常失望。

One of my favorite books is Hooked by Nir Eyal and he talks about in the kind of engagement loop that your last step is investment.

我最喜欢的书之一是 Nir ​​Eyal 的《Hooked》，他在参与循环中谈到了你的最后一步是投资。

Sean Ellis: And so I ran the survey on a business that I thought was a fairly commoditized business.

肖恩·埃利斯：所以我对一家我认为相当商品化的企业进行了调查。

Part of it I wanted to see, could I use the same go-to-market approach on a later stage company and use it to accelerate growth.

我想看到的一部分是，我是否可以在后期公司使用相同的进入市场方法并用它来加速增长。

And so this was a business called webs.com.

这就是一个名为 webs.com 的企业。

They eventually got acquired by VistaPrint.

他们最终被 VistaPrint 收购。

But they'd been pretty flat for the year before I went in there.

但在我进入那里之前的一年里，它们的表现相当平淡。

And then I started to use this approach to try to dial in their growth engine.

然后我开始使用这种方法来尝试启动他们的增长引擎。

I ran the survey thinking, "Yeah, you've had products like Wix and Weebly that have come on to the market since this more legacy website building product has been around.

我在进行调查时想，“是的，自从这种更传统的网站建设产品出现以来，Wix 和 Weebly 等产品就已经进入市场。

I personally think they're a little easier to use, they're a little better." And so I didn't have high hopes when I ran the survey, but it came back with one of the highest scores I'd ever seen.

我个人认为它们更容易使用一点，也更好一点。”因此，当我进行这项调查时，我并没有抱太大希望，但它的得分是我见过的最高分之一。

And it was like 90% of the people saying they'd be very disappointed if they could no longer use the product.

90% 的人表示，如果他们不能再使用该产品，他们会非常失望。

Lenny Rachitsky: Holy shit.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：天啊。

I've never seen that.

我从来没有见过这样的情况。

Sean Ellis: And I was like, "How could that be possible?

肖恩·埃利斯：我当时想，“这怎么可能？

This product is kind of a commoditized category.

该产品属于商品化类别。

I wouldn't even say it's one of the best." And then when I want to dug into it again, it comes back to that Nir Eyal Hooked model, is that the investment people have made in building that website, they put so much into that they know exactly how to make the changes and the kind of the CMS kind of side of things, they have spent a lot of time just making it beautiful.

我什至不会说它是最好的之一。”然后当我想再次深入研究它时，又回到了 Nir ​​Eyal Hooked 模型，人们在构建该网站时投入了如此多的资金，他们投入了如此多的资金，以至于他们确切地知道如何进行更改以及 CMS 的侧面，他们花了很多时间只是让它变得漂亮。

And so ultimately it was something that that was why they were saying they'd be very disappointed.

所以最终这就是他们说他们会非常失望的原因。

Sean Ellis: But fast-forward when I initially went in, still doing these things help the business resume growth and have significant growth over the next 12 months after we did these things.

Sean Ellis：但是快进到我最初进入时，仍然做这些事情帮助业务恢复增长，并在我们做这些事情后的未来 12 个月内实现显着增长。

So still the signal we got from why people would be very disappointed without the product was important and speed to value.

因此，我们从为什么人们如果没有该产品会非常失望而得到的信号仍然很重要，而且价值的速度很重要。

All the other things I think about in go-to-market for an early stage product still were relevant, but just I think they were a little stronger on the percentage he'd be very disappointed.

我在早期产品上市时考虑的所有其他事情仍然相关，但只是我认为它们在他会非常失望的百分比上更强一些。

Sean Ellis: Even Eventbrite when I was there when we ran it was probably the second highest I'd ever seen.

Sean Ellis：即使是当我在那里跑步时，Eventbrite 也可能是我见过的第二高的。

But with event organizers, if they've already set their event up on that platform and they've sent it out to their list and all those people are coming in and they're managing their event, again, they've invested a lot in the platform.

但对于活动组织者来说，如果他们已经在该平台上设置了活动，并将其发送到他们的列表中，所有这些人都进来并管理他们的活动，那么他们就在该平台上投入了大量资金。

So sort of switching costs I think can factor in there.

我认为转换成本可能是其中的一个因素。

So it's a function of both switching costs and utility of the product.

因此，它是产品转换成本和效用的函数。

Lenny Rachitsky: So that's a question I wanted to ask is, what's your guidance on when to ask this question?

Lenny Rachitsky：我想问的一个问题是，您对何时提出这个问题有何指导？

What I'm hearing is, if you ask it very far along the journey, when they're very invested, you'll get a much higher score.

我听到的是，如果你在旅途中问得很远，当他们非常投入时，你会得到更高的分数。

Is there any advice on the timing and the best time to ask this question to your users?

对于向用户提出这个问题的时机和最佳时间，有什么建议吗？

Sean Ellis: What I recommend is a random sample of people who've really used your product.

Sean Ellis：我推荐的是从真正使用过你的产品的人中随机抽取样本。

So they've gone in, they didn't just sign up, but they went in and hopefully hit that deviation moment.

所以他们已经进去了，他们不仅仅是注册了，而且他们进去了，希望能抓住那个偏差时刻。

They've used it twice, two plus times, and they've ideally used it, say, within the last week or two weeks, so they haven't churned yet.

他们已经使用过两次，两次以上，而且最好是在过去一两周内使用过，所以他们还没有流失。

So if it's a random sample of those people, that's kind of the ideal time to ask it.

因此，如果这是这些人的随机样本，那就是询问的理想时机。

Lenny Rachitsky: Got it.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：明白了。

So basically it's people that have activated whatever that means to you and have been using it for a couple weeks?

所以基本上是人们激活了对你来说意味着什么并且已经使用了几周的人？

Lenny Rachitsky: Not people landing in your home page, not people just signing up, not people months later.

Lenny Rachitsky：不是登陆你主页的人，不是刚刚注册的人，也不是几个月后的人。

Sean Ellis: Not people who've seen a demo of your product, but it's people who actually have experienced the product.

Sean Ellis：不是看过产品演示的人，而是真正体验过产品的人。

But it's okay if you're hitting people who've used it months later, but in that Lookout example that I gave, if I'm testing people's perception of the product after I made updates to the onboarding, I'm going to only want to survey people who went through the new onboarding.

但如果你攻击的是几个月后使用过它的人，那也没关系，但在我给出的 Lookout 示例中，如果我在更新引导后测试人们对产品的看法，我只想调查经历过新引导的人。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yep.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。

In the experimental.

在实验中。

Yeah.

是的。

Okay.

好的。

So I asked people on Twitter what to ask you.

所以我在推特上问人们该问你什么。

A lot of people had a lot of awesome questions.

很多人有很多很棒的问题。

I'm going to sprinkle in a couple of these questions throughout the chat.

我将在整个聊天过程中提出几个这样的问题。

Lenny Rachitsky: One came in from Shraaz Doshi, a popular guest of the podcast.

Lenny Rachitsky：其中一位来自 Shraaz Doshi，他是播客的热门嘉宾。

Sean Ellis: One of the ones that I listened to recently.

肖恩·埃利斯：我最近听过的其中之一。

Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

I think it's the second most popular episode behind Brian Chesky.

我认为这是继布莱恩·切斯基之后第二受欢迎的剧集。

Okay.

好的。

So he had a question of just, "What are the limitations of the score?

所以他有一个问题：“乐谱的局限性是什么？

When does it break down?

什么时候会崩溃？

When should you not use it if ever?" Is there anything of just like, "Here's when it's not going to work for you"?

如果可以的话，什么时候不应该使用它？”有没有类似这样的话：“这对你不起作用”？

Sean Ellis: Yeah.

肖恩·埃利斯：是的。

I think one-off products would probably, like, how would you feel if you could no longer watch the movie you just watch?

我认为一次性产品可能会，比如，如果你不能再看你刚刚看的电影，你会有什么感觉？

I wouldn't care.

我不在乎。

Even when I run a workshop, I don't run this as part of my survey after I do a workshop because how would you feel if you could no longer attend the workshop you just attended?

即使我举办研讨会，我也不会在举办研讨会后将其作为调查的一部分，因为如果您无法再参加刚刚参加的研讨会，您会有什么感觉？

It doesn't make sense.

这没有道理。

So I'll ask an NPS question as my filtering question so that I'm looking at focusing in on feedback of people who love it, also then through a separate lens, looking at people maybe who would be my detractors.

因此，我会问一个 NPS 问题作为我的过滤问题，这样我就会关注喜欢它的人的反馈，然后通过一个单独的镜头，看看可能会成为我的批评者的人。

So I think one-off products are probably not good products to run the question on.

所以我认为一次性产品可能不是解决这个问题的好产品。

There may be other places as well that I'm not thinking of right now, but that .

可能还有其他地方我现在没有想到，但那就是。

Lenny Rachitsky: It sounds like not many.

Lenny Rachitsky：听起来并不多。

What I'm hearing is it's generally widely applicable.

我听说它普遍适用。

Sean Ellis: Yeah, I think it is, at least from my perspective.

肖恩·埃利斯：是的，我认为是的，至少从我的角度来看是这样。

It's been really useful for me anyway.

无论如何，这对我来说真的很有用。

Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

Okay.

好的。

And then the follow-up question from Shraaz is, and I kind of asked this, but I'm curious if there's anything more here, just, "Have you seen any instances of startups over relying on the score prematurely declaring product market fit when in reality they haven't reached it yet?

Shraaz 的后续问题是，我问了这个问题，但我很好奇这里是否还有更多内容，只是，“你是否见过初创公司过度依赖分数过早宣布产品市场契合度的例子，而实际上他们还没有达到目标？

And just are there any other caveats of like, 'Cool, I got 40%'?" Is there anything else you should know, like, " Okay.

还有其他诸如‘酷，我得了 40%’之类的警告吗？”还有什么你应该知道的吗，比如，“好吧。

But maybe check this one thing"?

但也许检查一下这一件事”？

Sean Ellis: Yeah, I mean, I think to me it's kind of like what really is the definition of product market fit is the definition that people who get through my crappy onboarding and actually experience the product love it.

肖恩·埃利斯：是的，我的意思是，对我来说，产品市场契合度的真正定义是那些经历过我糟糕的入职培训并实际体验该产品的人喜欢它。

And if I'm able to retain those people, that means I have product market fit.

如果我能够留住这些人，那就意味着我的产品适合市场。

Or, is fixing that crappy onboarding part of getting to product market fit as well?

或者，修复糟糕的入职流程也是进入产品市场的一部分吗？

I think that's up for debate.

我认为这是有争议的。

Sean Ellis: So to me, the hardest, I wouldn't obsess on onboarding if I know those who kind of get through the challenge of getting started with the product still don't like the product then feels like it's a core product issue or wrong people using it in the wrong way issue.

Sean Ellis：所以对我来说，最难的是，如果我知道那些克服了产品入门挑战的人仍然不喜欢该产品，然后感觉这是一个核心产品问题或错误的人以错误的方式使用它，我就不会痴迷于入职培训。

But once you have that, then ultimately it doesn't mean that you're ready to grow.

但一旦你拥有了这一点，最终并不意味着你已经准备好成长。

When I focus on growth, then customer acquisition is almost the last step.

当我专注于增长时，获取客户几乎是最后一步。

Once I validate that it's a must have for those early users, then I'm thinking about, "Okay, how do I optimize speed to value?

一旦我确认它对于那些早期用户来说是必须的，那么我就会想，“好吧，我如何优化速度以实现价值？

How do I make sure that people have the right prompts to come back and use the product at the right time so that's kind of more of that engagement loop?

我如何确保人们有正确的提示，在正确的时间返回并使用该产品，以便这更像是一种参与循环？

How do I get my existing users to bring in more users if there's something that makes sense on that end?

如果有什么有意义的事情，我该如何让现有用户吸引更多用户？

Even how do I optimize my revenue model?"

甚至如何优化我的收入模式？”

Sean Ellis: Once all of those things are working well, then I'll obsess on the customer acquisition side.

Sean Ellis：一旦所有这些事情都进展顺利，我就会专注于客户获取方面。

But customer acquisition is so hard that if you're not really efficient at converting-

但获取客户非常困难，如果你的转化效率不高——

Sean Ellis: ...

肖恩·埃利斯：...

customer acquisition is so hard that if you're not really efficient at converting and retaining and monetizing people, you're going to really struggle on the customer acquisition side.

获取客户是如此困难，如果你不能真正有效地转化、保留和货币化人员，那么你在获取客户方面就会陷入困境。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, cool.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的，很酷。

And we'll talk about customer acquisition/growth.

我们将讨论客户获取/增长。

Lenny Rachitsky: Another question I wanted to ask, and a couple listeners asked, is the 40%.

Lenny Rachitsky：我想问的另一个问题是 40%，几个听众也问了这个问题。

I had Jag from Nubank on the podcast, I think you may have worked with them, and they use 50% as their threshold because apparently Brazilians are very nice.

我的播客中有来自 Nubank 的 Jag，我想你可能和他们合作过，他们使用 50% 作为门槛，因为显然巴西人非常友善。

Sean Ellis: Yeah.

肖恩·埃利斯：是的。

Optimistic I think is what I said.

我认为乐观就是我所说的。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。

I guess the question is do you find instances where you should increase that percentage?

我想问题是您是否发现应该增加该百分比的情况？

And in B2B, is anything different?

那么在 B2B 中，有什么不同吗？

Do you change the percentage in B2B?

你们会改变 B2B 中的百分比吗？

Any advice there just when you adjust the threshold?

当你调整阈值时有什么建议吗？

Sean Ellis: Yeah, I hadn't really thought too much on that.

肖恩·埃利斯：是的，我并没有对此想太多。

Again, for me, generally I'm trying to just figure out is this a product that can grow?

再说一遍，对我来说，通常我只是想弄清楚这是一个可以增长的产品吗？

So if I got a 37%, am I going to be like, "Oh no, this would be impossible?" Or if I had a 70%, does that mean I'd say, "Oh yeah, I want to jump in and work with this company?" It's more nuanced than that.

所以，如果我得到了 37%，我是否会说，“哦，不，这不可能吗？”或者，如果我有 70%，这是否意味着我会说，“哦，是的，我想加入这家公司并与之合作？”它比那更微妙。

Obviously, if it's a 70%, but I have no idea how I grow the business, I'm going to be stuck there.

显然，如果是 70%，但我不知道如何发展业务，我就会被困在那里。

But I do think he brought up a really good point that, culturally, some people are going to be more optimistic or pessimistic.

但我确实认为他提出了一个非常好的观点，即从文化角度来看，有些人会更加乐观或悲观。

Interestingly, when I came up with the question, I used to just use a normal satisfaction question.

有趣的是，当我提出这个问题时，我过去只是使用一个正常的满意度问题。

Sean Ellis: When I was working at Xobni, I'm just an intensely curious person anyway, so I'm just trying to dig in and understand the customers, and so I've always done lots of surveying.

Sean Ellis：当我在 Xobni 工作时，我只是一个非常好奇的人，所以我只是想深入了解并了解客户，所以我总是做大量的调查。

But at Xobni, I was going to use my filter as a satisfaction question, so how satisfied are you with this?

但在 Xobni，我打算使用我的过滤器作为满意度问题，那么您对此满意吗？

I'm very satisfied.

我很满意。

I'm somewhat satisfied.

我有些满意了。

And our main customers were actually senior management, and so I thought senior management's never satisfied.

我们的主要客户实际上是高级管理人员，所以我认为高级管理人员永远不会满意。

I'm going to get always this super lukewarm thing.

我总是会得到这种超级不冷不热的东西。

How can I change this question to give me a more real answer from these guys?

我怎样才能改变这个问题，让这些人给我一个更真实的答案？

Well, if I flip it and say, "How would you feel if you could no longer use this product?" I'll probably get a more honest answer back from them.

好吧，如果我翻转它并说：“如果你不能再使用这个产品，你会有什么感觉？”我可能会从他们那里得到更诚实的答案。

And of course, they're very disappointed if they can't get what they want.

当然，如果他们不能得到他们想要的东西，他们会非常失望。

Sean Ellis: And so initially it was just for the case of Xobni, but then I went to Dropbox right after Xobni and like, "Oh, I'll try the question again." And the insights I got back were really useful.

Sean Ellis：所以最初只是针对 Xobni 的情况，但在 Xobni 之后我就去了 Dropbox，然后说：“哦，我会再试一次这个问题。”我得到的见解非常有用。

And so each company I went to, I kept using the question.

所以我去的每家公司，我都不断地使用这个问题。

I'm like, this works way better than your typical satisfaction question.

我想，这比你典型的满意度问题要好得多。

But initially, it was more about thinking just senior management to get a more honest answer out of them.

但最初，更多的是考虑高级管理层，以便从他们那里得到更诚实的答案。

Lenny Rachitsky: So that's the origin story right there?

Lenny Rachitsky：这就是起源故事吗？

Lenny Rachitsky: Wow.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：哇。

That senior managers are just very harsh and they don't need anything?

高级管理人员只是非常严厉，他们不需要任何东西？

Lenny Rachitsky: And you have to flip it.

Lenny Rachitsky：你必须翻转它。

That is so interesting.

那太有趣了。

That question is such a good reminder of how hard it is to build anything people really would be disappointed not to have.

这个问题很好地提醒我们，建造任何人们真正会失望的东西是多么困难。

That's why this works so well.

这就是为什么它如此有效。

People are like, "I don't need this.

人们会说：“我不需要这个。

Who cares?" That's the core of this, is just that is hard.

谁在乎呢？”这就是核心，就是很难。

Sean Ellis: Especially when I first moved to Silicon Valley.

肖恩·埃利斯：尤其是当我第一次搬到硅谷时。

The first 15 years of my career were not in Silicon Valley, and so I was in Eastern Europe and then New York and then Boston.

我职业生涯的前 15 年并不在硅谷，所以我去了东欧，然后是纽约，然后是波士顿。

But you move to Silicon Valley and you have people who get really excited about technology for technology's sake.

但当你搬到硅谷后，那里的人们会为了技术而对技术感到非常兴奋。

And so just something being cool is like, "Isn't it cool that we can actually do this?" drives a lot of people.

所以，酷的事情就像是，“我们真的能做到这一点，不是很酷吗？”带动很多人。

And so to me, I'm very practical.

所以对我来说，我非常实际。

If it's not something that is really bringing value to people, then the likelihood that that product's successful long-term is going to be pretty low.

如果它不能真正为人们带来价值，那么该产品长期成功的可能性就会很低。

Sean Ellis: Even, interestingly, at Dropbox, through the six months I was there, I'd ask one question multiple times a month.

Sean Ellis：有趣的是，即使是在 Dropbox，我在那里的六个月里，我每个月都会多次问一个问题。

I broke the early beta users into a bunch of different lists.

我将早期测试版用户分成了一堆不同的列表。

And I'd ask, "Which best describes you?

我会问：“哪一项最能描述你？

I like to be among the first to try cool new technology, or, I only try things that I think will be useful for me?" And over the six months, it flipped from 90% being people who try things that they want to try cool new technology to six months later, it was people who only are going to try something that they feel like is useful.

我喜欢成为第一批尝试酷炫新技术的人，或者，我只尝试我认为对我有用的东西？”在这六个月里，90% 的人尝试他们想要尝试很酷的新技术，而六个月后，人们只愿意尝试他们认为有用的东西。

But what's cool is just because what motivates you to try something is you're an early adopter and you want to try something cool, if you're going to keep using it, it's because it's giving you some utility.

但很酷的只是因为激励你尝试某些东西的是你是早期采用者并且你想尝试一些很酷的东西，如果你要继续使用它，那是因为它给了你一些实用性。

And so I can still use those early adopters to help me figure out where's the value inside the product.

因此，我仍然可以利用这些早期采用者来帮助我弄清楚产品的价值在哪里。

Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

So actually, two questions along those lines.

实际上，有两个问题。

How durable do you find this percentage being?

您认为这个百分比有多持久？

Say you hit 40%, how often does that fade and go away versus stay there or go higher?

假设您达到了 40%，那么与保持该水平或更高的情况相比，这种情况多久会消失并消失？

Sean Ellis: Yeah, I haven't seen it really fade back down, but I've seen companies fail despite having it.

肖恩·埃利斯：是的，我还没有看到它真正消退，但我看到公司尽管拥有它却还是失败了。

And I think a lot of times then, it becomes an execution challenge.

我想很多时候，这会成为执行方面的挑战。

Once you have product-market fit, not everyone's going to be a good executor.

一旦产品与市场相匹配，并不是每个人都会成为优秀的执行者。

But before that, I think getting to product-market fit, obviously there's a lot of methodology for doing it today that might make it a bit easier for people, but I still think it's fairly random and pretty dang hard.

但在此之前，我认为要实现产品与市场的契合，显然今天有很多方法可以做到这一点，这可能会让人们更容易一些，但我仍然认为这是相当随机的，而且非常困难。

And so ultimately, the risk factor of creating something that people care about is really difficult.

因此最终，创造人们关心的东西的风险因素确实很困难。

So if you can get to the point where you have 40% of the people who are using it saying they'd be very disappointed, and you have a reasonable sample size.

因此，如果你能达到 40% 的使用者表示他们会非常失望的程度，并且你有一个合理的样本量。

Let's say you've got 10 people and four of them said they'd be very disappointed without it, you're still going to get something useful from those four.

假设您有 10 个人，其中四个人表示如果没有它，他们会非常失望，您仍然可以从这四个人那里得到一些有用的东西。

But I wouldn't say that's a sample size that you can really go to market on, so yeah.

但我不会说这是一个可以真正推向市场的样本量，所以是的。

Lenny Rachitsky: What's a good sample size you look for of just, "Okay, this is actually good data I want to rely on?"

Lenny Rachitsky：您寻找的良好样本量是多少，“好吧，这实际上是我想要依赖的好数据？”

Sean Ellis: It's really funny.

肖恩·埃利斯：这真的很有趣。

So much of the stuff I self-learned, but I basically at one point said I need at least 30 responses, and I just thought I randomly made up a number and then I had people telling me, "Yeah, 30 is the minimum that you want on stuff." Okay.

很多东西都是我自学的，但我基本上有一次说我需要至少 30 个答案，我只是想我随机编了一个数字，然后有人告诉我，“是的，30 是你想要的东西的最低限度。”好的。

And even when I first created this survey, I remember showing it to the co-founder of SlideShare and her PhD was in survey-related stuff like cognitive psychology, but she basically said it was really about surveying.

甚至当我第一次创建这项调查时，我记得向 SlideShare 的联合创始人展示了它，她的博士学位是与调查相关的内容，例如认知心理学，但她基本上说这实际上是关于调查的。

And she's like, "This methodology is amazing.

她说：“这个方法太棒了。

How did you come up with this?" And so having some of that validation around these things helped.

你是怎么想出这个办法的？”因此，围绕这些事情进行一些验证会有所帮助。

But a lot of it was just, again, driven by my own curiosity and also just knowing that that failure is such a likely outcome that trying to reverse engineer that failure, and then the number one reason for failure would be that people don't actually care about the product.

但其中很多只是由我自己的好奇心驱动，而且只是知道失败是很可能的结果，因此尝试对失败进行逆向工程，然后失败的首要原因将是人们实际上并不关心产品。

And so when I find that, that's a really good sign that we're now down to an execution challenge.

因此，当我发现这一点时，这是一个非常好的迹象，表明我们现在面临执行挑战。

Lenny Rachitsky: And there's this obvious element of you may have product-market fit with people, but that group might end up being very small and the business you build around it could actually be cool, but it's not going to be a massive business.

Lenny Rachitsky：很明显，你的产品市场可能与人们契合，但这个群体最终可能会很小，你围绕它建立的业务实际上可能很酷，但它不会成为一项大规模业务。

Is there anything there you can share?

有什么可以分享的吗？

It's hard to know the size opportunity even though some people really, really like it.

尽管有些人真的非常喜欢它，但很难知道机会的大小。

Sean Ellis: Yeah, I talked about I go to a multiple choice after I initially use open-ended questions to crowdsource the different use cases.

Sean Ellis：是的，我谈到在我最初使用开放式问题来众包不同用例后，我会进行多项选择。

But then I try to force people in a bucket, and then I can run filters on each of those buckets and I'll be like, "Oh, people who use it this way are like 60% likely to be very disappointed without the product, but people who use it this way are 35% likely to be very disappointed, but way more people use it the 35% way." And so then, do you want that intensely loyal group or the much broader group that's maybe a bit less, but almost there?

但然后我尝试强迫人们在一个桶中，然后我可以对每个桶运行过滤器，我会说，“哦，以这种方式使用它的人有 60% 可能会在没有该产品时非常失望，但以这种方式使用它的人有 35% 可能会非常失望，但更多的人以 35% 的方式使用它。”那么，你想要一个高度忠诚的群体还是一个更广泛的群体（数量可能会少一些，但几乎就在那里）？

Sean Ellis: I think that becomes a bit of a strategic conversation of do we want to have a better chance of surviving, going after a niche that we know we can serve well?

肖恩·埃利斯：我认为这变成了一场战略对话，我们是否想要有更好的生存机会，追求我们知道我们可以很好服务的利基市场？

Or have we raised so much money that we have to go after a really big market, and one that's not going to be long-term?

或者我们筹集了如此多的资金，以至于我们必须去追求一个非常大的市场，而且这个市场不会是长期的？

But maybe then you're like, "Okay, once I have traction in that market, I can start to try to appeal to some other markets." But I think that's where some strategic decisions come in.

但也许你会想，“好吧，一旦我在那个市场有了吸引力，我就可以开始尝试吸引其他一些市场。”但我认为这就是一些战略决策的用武之地。

Lenny Rachitsky: Do you have a heuristic of which you often recommend or is it very dependent on the situation?

Lenny Rachitsky：您是否有经常推荐的启发式方法，或者它是否非常依赖于具体情况？

Sean Ellis: I prefer a more passionate customer base and work from there, just because I think your biggest competition when you're really innovating is just being irrelevant.

Sean Ellis：我更喜欢更热情的客户群并从那里开始工作，只是因为我认为当你真正创新时，最大的竞争只是无关紧要的。

And so if you're deeply relevant to anyone, I think that gives you a much better chance of long-term success.

因此，如果你与任何人都有密切的关系，我认为这会给你带来长期成功的更好机会。

Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

That's a really good insight.

这真是一个很好的见解。

Okay, two more questions along this line and then I want to talk about growth strategy.

好吧，还有两个问题，然后我想谈谈增长战略。

One very tactical question.

一个非常战术性的问题。

Is there a tool you recommend for doing this sort of survey?

您是否有推荐的工具来进行此类调查？

Do you recommend inline?

你推荐内联吗？

In the product?

在产品中？

An email?

电子邮件？

Something else?

还有别的事吗？

Sean Ellis: I've used a lot of different tools.

Sean Ellis：我使用过很多不同的工具。

I actually had a survey business that I sold to private equity years ago.

事实上，我有一家调查业务，几年前就卖给了私募股权公司。

It is called Qualaroo.

它被称为夸拉罗。

That's an inflow survey tool.

这是一个流入调查工具。

I think just using SurveyMonkey with emailed surveys works fine.

我认为仅使用 SurveyMonkey 进行电子邮件调查就可以了。

And for me, it's a lot more of what's pleasant for the customer to fill out and then what's going to give me something where I can work really easily with the data?

对我来说，更重要的是让客户填写一些令人愉快的内容，然后什么能给我一些可以真正轻松地处理数据的东西？

So at Bounce, for example, they had already intercom in place that had just introduced surveying, but it was a really crappy customer experience, at least at that time.

例如，在 Bounce，他们已经安装了对讲机，刚刚引入了测量功能，但这是一种非常糟糕的客户体验，至少在当时是这样。

That's been almost a year now or actually a little over a year.

到现在已经快一年了，或者说实际上已经一年多一点了。

And so I'm really sensitive to is it a good survey experience for the consumer itself?

所以我真的很敏感，这对消费者本身来说是否是一种良好的调查体验？

But yeah, I don't think I'm stuck to any one platform there.

但是，是的，我不认为我会被困在任何一个平台上。

Lenny Rachitsky: Such an important topic.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个非常重要的话题。

Just, again, to remind people why this is so important, one of the most common questions founders ask is, "Do I have product-market fit?

只是再次提醒人们为什么这如此重要，创始人最常见的问题之一是，“我的产品适合市场吗？

Have I built something people want?" That's just an endless series of, "I don't know.

我建造了人们想要的东西吗？”这只是一系列无休止的“我不知道。

How do I know?

我怎么知道？

When do I know?" And this is telling you in a really interesting way.

我什么时候知道？”这是以一种非常有趣的方式告诉你的。

So your advice is this is a leading indicator.

所以你的建议是这是一个领先指标。

You don't actually know until people actually start using it and whether they retain and continue using it.

在人们真正开始使用它之前，你实际上并不知道他们是否保留并继续使用它。

Is there just advice on the shift you make from relying on the survey to actually looking at retention cohorts?

对于您从依赖调查转向实际关注保留群体的转变，是否有什么建议？

Is it just once you have enough data, once you have a couple of cohorts, then start looking at that?

是不是只要你有了足够的数据，一旦你有了几个队列，然后就开始研究它？

Forget about the survey?

忘记调查了？

Sean Ellis: Yeah, but retention cohorts don't give you any of the qualitative insights into the why, so that's why we continue to do the survey.

肖恩·埃利斯：是的，但是保留队列并没有给你任何关于原因的定性见解，所以这就是我们继续进行调查的原因。

So initially I would say if the survey comes back and it shows whatever your target number is...

所以最初我想说的是，如果调查结果显示你的目标数字是什么......

If you want to be Nubank, it'd be a 50%.

如果你想成为 Nubank，那就是 50%。

Or two of the companies I launched, we launched in Hungary, and I would say it was the opposite end of the spectrum of Brazil, maybe more pessimistic than the average culture.

或者我创办的两家公司是在匈牙利推出的，我想说这是巴西的另一端，也许比一般文化更悲观。

And so maybe 30% is good enough there, but that ultimately, whatever your target is, that you have the signal that says, "Okay, we have enough value here.

所以也许 30% 就足够了，但最终，无论你的目标是什么，你都会收到这样的信号：“好吧，我们在这里有足够的价值。

Let's start working on growing the business." But while you're working on growing the business, I would be paying attention to those retention cohorts.

让我们开始致力于发展业务。”但是，当您致力于发展业务时，我会关注这些保留群体。

And if you're churning out all the customers who were saying that they'd be very disappointed without the product, then okay, let's retrench and rethink, do we really have product-market fit here and what do we need to do to get it if we don't?

如果你淘汰了所有表示如果没有该产品他们会非常失望的客户，那么好吧，让我们缩减开支并重新思考，我们真的有适合这里的产品市场吗？如果没有，我们需要做什么才能得到它？

Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

And speaking of Nubank, if anyone wants to see how a company has actually operationalized this in the way they operate, that there's an episode that we'll link to in the show notes where every new product at Nubank they build, before they launch it, they wait for 50% threshold.

说到 Nubank，如果有人想了解一家公司如何以他们的运营方式实际操作这一点，我们将在节目中链接到一个情节，其中指出 Nubank 开发的每一个新产品，在推出之前，都会等待 50% 的门槛。

For people to say 50% of people would be disappointed if this product did not exist as they're developing it.

人们说，如果他们正在开发的产品不存在，50% 的人会感到失望。

And only then do they launch it publicly.

然后他们才会公开发布它。

Sean Ellis: Yeah, I think they even do it down to the feature level.

肖恩·埃利斯：是的，我认为他们甚至在功能层面上做到了这一点。

Sean Ellis: So if you think about it, how would you feel if you can no longer use this feature starts to give you, again, the signal, is that feature a must-have feature?

Sean Ellis：所以如果你想一想，如果你不能再使用这个功能，你会感觉如何，再次向你发出信号，这个功能是必须具备的功能吗？

And if it's not, maybe we shouldn't have it.

如果不是，也许我们就不应该拥有它。

And so yeah, I was super excited when I saw how they were using the survey and they were doing it before I engaged with them.

所以，是的，当我看到他们如何使用这项调查以及他们在我与他们接触之前就这样做时，我感到非常兴奋。

Sean Ellis: But they were doing it, I think, from pretty early on in the business.

肖恩·埃利斯（Sean Ellis）：但我认为，他们从行业早期就开始这么做了。

Lenny Rachitsky: The reason they can do this is they have a lot of users.

Lenny Rachitsky：他们之所以能做到这一点是因为他们拥有大量用户。

They have millions of millions of users, so they can ask some small percentage of people this question.

他们拥有数百万用户，因此他们可以向一小部分人询问这个问题。

Because people hearing this might be like, "Oh my God, how many times am I going to be asked this question when I'm using this feature?" But they have a lot of users, so it's easier.

因为人们听到这个可能会想，“天啊，当我使用这个功能时，我会被问多少次这个问题？”但他们有很多用户，所以更容易。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

Last question, I promise, along these lines.

最后一个问题，我保证，沿着这个思路。

Say someone is listening and they're like, "Okay.

假设有人在听，他们会说：“好吧。

Man, I'm getting 10%, I'm getting 15%.

伙计，我得到 10%，我得到 15%。

I don't know what to do to increase my product-market fit." You should have just a strategy of just dig into the people that are very disappointed and see what they have to say.

我不知道该怎么做才能提高我的产品与市场的契合度。”你应该有一个策略，深入了解那些非常失望的人，看看他们会说什么。

But any other advice/what do you find often works in helping people move from, say, 10% to 40%?

但是，还有其他建议/您发现什么通常可以帮助人们从 10% 提高到 40% 吗？

Sean Ellis: Yeah, so one of the things that's cool about almost open-sourcing the survey approach is, again, watching how Nubank has evolved their usage.

Sean Ellis：是的，几乎将调查方法开源的最酷的事情之一就是观察 Nubank 如何发展其使用。

But one of the other companies that I think used it in an interesting way is Superhuman.

但我认为以一种有趣的方式使用它的其他公司之一是 Super human。

And I would say that they basically ended up probably putting a lot more momentum behind the question than it had even before.

我想说的是，他们最终可能比以前更加支持这个问题。

They posted something about how they did it on First Round Capital's blog.

他们在 First Round Capital 的博客上发布了一些有关他们是如何做到这一点的内容。

And what I have always said, and again, it's me coming at it from probably initially a marketing background, which is I'm taking the product as a fixed thing, and how do I actually figure out how to market and grow this product?

我一直在说，我最初可能是从营销背景出发的，也就是说，我将产品视为一个固定的东西，我如何真正弄清楚如何营销和发展这个产品？

And product changes are going to take a long time, and so what are the variables that I can control with a marketing background?

产品的改变需要很长时间，那么我有营销背景可以控制哪些变量呢？

So one of the things I've always said is just ignore the people who say they'd be somewhat disappointed.

所以我一直说的一件事就是忽略那些说他们会有些失望的人。

They're telling you it's a nice to have.

他们告诉你，拥有它真是太好了。

They're as good as gone, so just ignore those guys.

他们已经消失了，所以忽略那些家伙吧。

Sean Ellis: I'll put one piece in the middle there before I say what Superhuman did.

肖恩·埃利斯：在我说《超人》做了什么之前，我会先在中间放一块。

The reason that I say ignore those guys is that if you start paying attention to what you somewhat disappointed users are telling you, and then you start tweaking onboarding and product based on their feedback, maybe you're going to dilute it for your must-have users.

我说忽略这些人的原因是，如果你开始关注让你有些失望的用户告诉你的内容，然后你开始根据他们的反馈调整入门和产品，也许你会淡化你的必备用户的需求。

And ultimately, it becomes kind of good for everyone but not great for anyone.

最终，它对每个人都有好处，但对任何人都不好。

And so that was my fear of trying to read too much into the users who say they'd be somewhat disappointed.

因此，我担心试图过多地了解那些表示他们会有些失望的用户。

But the Superhuman guys actually found, I think, a good way around that where they said, "Okay, what is the benefit that my must-have users are focused on?

但我认为，超人类实际上找到了一个解决这个问题的好方法，他们说：“好吧，我的必备用户关注的好处是什么？

And then of the users who say they'd be somewhat disappointed, so the nice-to-have users, of those users who are also focused on that benefit, what do they need in the product for it then to become a must-have for them?"

然后，对于那些表示会有些失望的用户，对于那些希望拥有的用户，以及那些也关注这一好处的用户，他们需要产品中的什么才能使其成为他们的必备品？”

Sean Ellis: And so they're staying true to that core benefit, but they're trying to essentially take those on-the-fence users and moving them up.

肖恩·埃利斯：所以他们坚持核心利益，但他们试图从本质上吸引那些持观望态度的用户并提升他们的地位。

And so I think their way of approaching that addressed what my concern was, which is are we going to break it for the must-have users?

所以我认为他们的方法解决了我的担忧，即我们是否要为必备用户打破它？

Lenny Rachitsky: That's an awesome insight.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个很棒的见解。

By the way, did Rahul and the team there just do this on their own or were you involved in any way in this at Superhuman?

顺便问一下，拉胡尔和那里的团队是他们自己做的还是你在超人中以任何方式参与了这件事？

Sean Ellis: No. That's the same thing.

肖恩·埃利斯：不。那是同一件事。

Like I said, I wasn't initially involved with Nubank.

正如我所说，我最初并没有参与 Nubank。

I wasn't involved with them.

我没有参与他们。

We wrote about it in our book in 2017, and so I think that I got it out there.

我们在 2017 年的书中写到了这一点，所以我想我已经把它写出来了。

But I actually teamed up with the Kissmetrics team in 2012, and essentially published this survey on survey.io where we just made it freely available for people and a really easy template to prepare and send out, and the how-to guide on it.

但我实际上在 2012 年与 Kissmetrics 团队合作，基本上在 Survey.io 上发布了这项调查，我们只是免费向人们提供该调查，并提供一个非常简单的准备和发送模板以及操作指南。

It was all just free.

这一切都是免费的。

Kissmetrics is using it as maybe lead gen.

Kissmetrics 可能将其用作潜在客户开发者。

And for me, I just wanted a way to put something out for the community.

对我来说，我只是想要一种为社区提供一些东西的方法。

And so it's been out there for a long time, so it's not surprising that different companies have found different unique ways to use it.

因此它已经存在很长时间了，因此不同的公司找到不同独特的使用方式也就不足为奇了。

Lenny Rachitsky: That's awesome.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

I think that post is one of the most popular in First Round.

我认为该帖子是第一轮中最受欢迎的帖子之一。

It really had an impact on a lot of people.

确实对很多人产生了影响。

Lenny Rachitsky: So just to repeat, the approach you recommend for when you're digging into...

Lenny Rachitsky：重复一下，当您深入研究时您推荐的方法......

I wrote this down.

我把这个写下来了。

When you were talking for how to dig into what benefit people are finding, your advice is it's basically a follow-up survey to the extremely disappointed people asking them what is the primary benefit you get?

当您谈论如何挖掘人们发现的好处时，您的建议是，这基本上是对极度失望的人进行的后续调查，询问他们您获得的主要好处是什么？

It's an open text initially.

它最初是一个开放的文本。

Then once you get a collection, you do it sounds like another survey as multiple choice.

然后，一旦你得到了一个集合，你所做的听起来就像是另一项多项选择的调查。

Here's five benefits-

这里有五个好处——

Sean Ellis: To a different group of people, to be clear.

肖恩·埃利斯：要明确的是，对于不同的人群。

Lenny Rachitsky: Different group.

Lenny Rachitsky：不同的群体。

Yeah.

是的。

Got it.

知道了。

Awesome.

惊人的。

And then it's like, which of these four or five benefits is what you're getting out of this product?

然后就会想，您可以从该产品中获得这四五个好处中的哪一个？

And then the question is, why is this benefit important to you?

那么问题是，为什么这个好处对您很重要？

Sean Ellis: Eventually the survey.io got closed down, but essentially the template that I typically used was then moved to PMFsurvey.com.

Sean Ellis：最终 Survey.io 被关闭，但基本上我通常使用的模板随后被转移到 PMFsurvey.com。

And so you'll see some other questions that I have on there as well, like what would you use instead if this product were no longer available?

因此，您还会看到我在那里提出的其他一些问题，例如，如果该产品不再可用，您会使用什么来代替？

And that's one of the interesting things is you start to see people who say they'd be somewhat disappointed, usually, they're focused on a commodity use case and they know an easy alternative to switch to.

有趣的事情之一是，你开始看到人们说他们会有些失望，通常，他们专注于商品用例，并且他们知道有一个简单的替代方案可以切换。

So to be a must-have, it needs to be both valuable and unique.

因此，要成为必备品，它必须既有价值又独特。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

Anything else on this topic of the Sean Ellis task product-market fit test before we move on to growth strategy advice?

在我们继续提出增长战略建议之前，关于肖恩·埃利斯任务产品市场适应性测试的主题还有什么其他内容吗？

Lenny Rachitsky: I think we did almost an hour on that one topic, which I love because I feel like this is such a powerful tool that I think people sort of know and have used, but I think there's a lot of opportunity to use it more effectively.

Lenny Rachitsky：我想我们在这个主题上花了将近一个小时，我喜欢这个主题，因为我觉得这是一个非常强大的工具，我认为人们已经了解并使用过它，但我认为有很多机会更有效地使用它。

And all the stuff you pointed out about it's not just you have this threshold goal, let's move, let's grow.

您指出的所有内容不仅仅是您有这个阈值目标，让我们前进，让我们成长。

It's like, this is how you figure out how to make it better and better and grow faster and faster.

就像，这就是你如何让它变得越来越好、成长得越来越快的方法。

And it's actually a good segue to talking about growth.

这实际上是谈论增长的一个很好的延续。

Lenny Rachitsky: Even though you coined the term growth hacking, you spend most of your time on the opposite, essentially, which is helping companies figure out sustainable growth strategies, not just a bunch of hacks to grow for a little bit and then disappear.

Lenny Rachitsky：尽管你创造了“增长黑客”这个词，但你大部分时间都花在了相反的事情上，本质上是帮助公司找出可持续增长战略，而不仅仅是一堆增长一点点然后消失的黑客。

And from what I've seen, it's all rooted in this idea of product-market fit and what helps you find product-market fit, and I imagine many of the stuff we've talked about.

从我所看到的来看，这一切都植根于产品与市场契合度以及帮助您找到产品与市场契合度的理念，我想我们讨论过的许多内容都是如此。

Sean Ellis: Yeah.

肖恩·埃利斯：是的。

Just one quick interjection there is that when I coined growth hacking, I did not think of it as a bunch of one-off hacks.

顺便插一句，当我创造增长黑客时，我并不认为它是一堆一次性的黑客。

What I thought of it was what's more about what is the way to ultimately drive sustainable growth?

我想到的更重要的是，最终推动可持续增长的方式是什么？

But it's, over time, maybe more interpreted the way you described it, but just to jump in and say that.

但随着时间的推移，可能会更多地按照你所描述的方式进行解释，但只是跳出来说出来。

Lenny Rachitsky: That's a really good clarification, so how did you actually initially frame it when you first-

Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个非常好的澄清，那么当你第一次——

Sean Ellis: Yeah, I just said it's about looking at every single thing that you're doing and scrutinizing its impact on growth in the business.

肖恩·埃利斯：是的，我只是说要关注你正在做的每一件事，并仔细审查它对业务增长的影响。

And particularly, I think most marketers, when I first moved to Silicon Valley, most CEOs who were asking me to help their companies, they were saying, "We need help with awareness-building," and I'm getting introductions from top VCs.

特别是，我认为大多数营销人员，当我第一次搬到硅谷时，大多数要求我帮助他们公司的首席执行官，他们都说，“我们需要帮助提高意识”，而且我从顶级风投那里得到了介绍。

And so, so much of, I think, the way people were approaching growth was marketing textbook how to approach it.

因此，我认为，人们实现增长的方式很大程度上是营销教科书如何实现增长。

And startups just don't have the luxury to do all of those things, and so you got to really focus on how do I acquire customers to an experience that's going to make them keep using this product?

初创公司没有能力做所有这些事情，所以你必须真正关注如何让客户获得一种让他们继续使用这个产品的体验？

And so maybe I picked the wrong term in calling it growth hacking, but I think it at least opened the conversation to getting more people thinking about maybe we should be thinking about growth in a different way than as it's traditionally taught in marketing courses in school.

所以也许我用错了术语“增长黑客”，但我认为它至少开启了对话，让更多的人思考也许我们应该以不同于学校营销课程传统教授的方式来思考增长。

Lenny Rachitsky: Is there another term you think you should have used?

Lenny Rachitsky：您认为您应该使用另一个术语吗？

Do you always think back, I should have called it this?

你是否总在想，我应该这样称呼它？

Is there anything that you've had in your mind?

你心里有什么想法吗？

Sean Ellis: I don't.

肖恩·埃利斯：我不知道。

I think sometimes having something that's a little divisive is almost better because it's too easy to just go completely unnoticed.

我认为有时有一点分歧的东西几乎更好，因为它太容易完全被忽视。

But I was trying to put a name on not just how I was approaching growth, but seeing Facebook obviously had a very different approach to growth than most companies.

但我不仅想说明自己是如何实现增长的，而且还发现 Facebook 的增长方式显然与大多数公司截然不同。

LinkedIn, Twitter, there was a handful of companies that were approaching it in the same way I had previously been approaching it, and I just thought this thing needs a name.

LinkedIn、Twitter，有几家公司正在以我之前处理它的方式处理它，我只是认为这个东西需要一个名字。

And so I sat down with a couple of friends, came up with a name and it stuck.

于是我和几个朋友坐下来，想出了一个名字，然后就被固定住了。

But yeah, obviously from day one it was pretty divisive with different groups.

但是，是的，显然从第一天起，不同群体之间就存在很大分歧。

That's a fun story.

这是一个有趣的故事。

Thanks for sharing that.: Okay, so talking about growth and helping companies figure out how to grow.

感谢分享。：好的，现在谈论增长并帮助公司弄清楚如何增长。

Say you go to a company, they're getting 42% on the Sean Ellis test, and they're like, "Okay, cool, let's start thinking about growth." What's your first piece of advice to them to start when they're thinking about growth?

假设你去一家公司，他们在 Sean Ellis 测试中得到了 42%，他们会说，“好吧，酷，让我们开始考虑增长吧。”当他们考虑增长时，您给他们的第一条建议是什么？

And then just broadly, how do you approach helping them figure out how to grow?

然后从广义上讲，您如何帮助他们弄清楚如何成长？

Sean Ellis: Ultimately, it's about trying to get as many of the right people to that same state that we just talked about with the must-have users, so trying to get as many people to experience the product in a way where they'd be very disappointed if they could no longer use the product.

Sean Ellis：最终，我们要努力让尽可能多的合适的人达到我们刚刚与必备用户讨论的相同状态，因此尝试让尽可能多的人体验该产品，如果他们无法再使用该产品，他们会感到非常失望。

And so that's not just acquisition, which is how most companies think about...

所以这不仅仅是收购，这是大多数公司的想法......

Initially, it was awareness then maybe the more developed way was, oh, let's at least focus on profitable acquisition.

最初，这是意识，也许更成熟的方式是，哦，让我们至少关注有利可图的收购。

But in my experience, the hardest part really sits inside the product team, so how do you shape that first user experience so they actually use it in the right way and it's not so difficult that they give up?

但根据我的经验，最困难的部分实际上是在产品团队内部，所以你如何塑造第一次用户体验，以便他们实际上以正确的方式使用它，并且不那么困难以至于他们放弃？

And that ultimately, we understand what makes it a must-have product.

最终，我们了解是什么使它成为必备产品。

And then what we're trying to do is build a...

然后我们要做的是建立一个......

Yeah, it sounds kind of theoretical here, but I can go into the details on how, but build a flywheel around that must-have value.

是的，这听起来有点理论化，但我可以详细介绍如何实现，但围绕这个必须具备的价值构建一个飞轮。

Sean Ellis: So step one would be understand it.

肖恩·埃利斯：所以第一步是理解它。

Step two for me is then figure out a metric that essentially captures units of that value being delivered.

对我来说，第二步是找出一个指标，该指标本质上捕获了所交付价值的单位。

And so when I think about a north star metric, that's what I'm thinking about is something that reflects how many people are coming in and experiencing that product-market fit experience, whatever that is.

因此，当我考虑北极星指标时，我想到的是反映有多少人进入并体验产品市场契合体验，无论是什么。

And it's not just me telling them, "Here's what your north star metric should be." It's that ultimately the team needs to decide that together.

不仅仅是我告诉他们，“这就是你的北极星指标应该是什么。”最终团队需要共同做出决定。

And then really just diagramming, what are all of the different ways that we can grow that north star metric?

然后真的只是用图表来说明，我们可以通过哪些不同的方式来增长北极星指标？

So that's where you start to actually build, I call it a value delivery engine, but it's what does our onboarding look like?

这就是你开始实际构建的地方，我称之为价值交付引擎，但这就是我们的入职流程是什么样的？

What's that aha moment?

那个顿悟时刻是什么？

That activation?

那个激活？

What does the engagement loop look like?

参与循环是什么样的？

Is there any referral?

有没有可以参考的？

Try to capture it as it is today.

尝试捕捉它今天的样子。

Sean Ellis: And then, from there, thinking about where are the biggest opportunities for improvement, so those high-leverage opportunities, and then ultimately starting to run experiments against those opportunities.

肖恩·埃利斯：然后，从那里开始思考最大的改进机会在哪里，那些高杠杆的机会，然后最终开始针对这些机会进行实验。

Generally, I think I touched on it a little bit earlier, but generally the sequence that I like to do is start with activation because that one's just so critical and it's easy to get lost in between, especially for an early product.

一般来说，我想我稍早接触过它，但一般来说，我喜欢做的顺序是从激活开始，因为激活非常关键，而且很容易在中间迷失方向，特别是对于早期产品。

The product team's so focused on the roadmap.

产品团队非常关注路线图。

We're two features away from not even needing marketing anymore.

我们距离不再需要营销还有两个功能。

This thing's going to take off.

这件事即将起飞。

And then a marketing team so focused on bringing new people in, but how do you get those new people to a great first experience falls through the cracks a lot of times.

然后，营销团队如此专注于引进新人，但如何让这些新人获得良好的初次体验却很多时候都失败了。

So a lot of focus on activation and then engagement and referral and getting the revenue model right.

因此，我们要重点关注激活、参与和推荐，以及建立正确的收入模式。

And then once each of those pieces are working well, then starting to really obsess on the channel side.

一旦这些部分都运行良好，那么就开始真正着迷于渠道方面。

Sean Ellis: One thing that I'll say.

肖恩·埃利斯：我要说的一件事。

When I go in and directly am involved with a company on the acquisition side, I am thinking about my hypotheses on the acquisition pretty early on, because if I go into it and I have no idea how we'll acquire those customers, I'm not real confident I'll figure it out when I'm there.

当我进入并直接参与收购方面的公司时，我很早就开始思考我对收购的假设，因为如果我进入它并且我不知道我们将如何获得这些客户，我不太有信心当我在那里时能弄清楚。

So I want to have two or three things that seem pretty viable as ways to profitably acquire customers, and knowing that once I get deep into it, I'll probably come up with one or two more and I've got five, one of them's likely to work.

因此，我想要有两到三件看起来非常可行的事情，作为获取客户的盈利方式，并且知道一旦我深入研究，我可能会想出一两件以上的事情，而我已经有了五件，其中一件可能会起作用。

But I don't want to just be under the pressure of having to come up with that once I come in, if I don't at least see an angle from that before I get involved with the company.

但我不想在进入公司后就承受必须想出这个方案的压力，如果我在加入公司之前至少没有看到一个角度的话。

Lenny Rachitsky: What I'm hearing is when you come into a company and they're asking, "Sean, how do we figure out how to grow this thing?" you actually focus first on activation onboarding, and we're going to talk about all these things.

Lenny Rachitsky：我听到的是，当你进入一家公司时，他们会问：“肖恩，我们如何弄清楚如何发展这个东西？”实际上，您首先关注的是激活入门，我们将讨论所有这些事情。

Then, after that, basically these are priority order for you.

然后，在那之后，基本上这些都是你的优先顺序。

Then it's flywheel engagement referral stuff to see if there's a way to drive that.

然后是飞轮参与推荐的东西，看看是否有办法推动它。

Then revenue.

然后是收入。

How do we make money with this and how do we make sure we're doing this profitably?

我们如何利用这个赚钱？我们如何确保我们这样做是有利可图的？

And only then do you start to go big on acquisition top-of-funnel growth.

只有这样你才能开始大力收购漏斗顶部的增长。

Sean Ellis: Yeah.

肖恩·埃利斯：是的。

I may need to do some acquisition stuff before just to bring enough flow-through, but I'm not obsessing on how scalable is this.

我可能需要先做一些收购工作才能带来足够的流量，但我并不痴迷于它的可扩展性。

It's just like, yeah, let's get enough people coming through that we can start to take the slack out.

就像，是的，让我们有足够多的人过来，这样我们就可以开始消除懈怠。

Part of it comes down to that the acquisition side is so competitive now that if you're not really efficient at converting and retaining and monetizing customers, you can't find scalable, profitable customer acquisition channels.

部分原因在于，现在获取方面的竞争非常激烈，如果你不能真正有效地转化、保留和货币化客户，你就无法找到可扩展、有利可图的客户获取渠道。

Lenny Rachitsky: This is fascinating because I think a lot of people probably do the opposite.

Lenny Rachitsky：这很有趣，因为我认为很多人可能会做相反的事情。

Start driving a bunch of growth to a product, then we'll fix onboarding, then we'll figure out how we're making money, and referrals comes along there.

开始推动产品的大量增长，然后我们将解决入职问题，然后我们将弄清楚如何赚钱，然后就会出现推荐。

So I think this is really important for people to hear.

所以我认为这对人们来说非常重要。

So again, the reason you invest first and focus a lot on onboarding/getting people activated is because that is very correlated to retention and this must-have customer, this, "I'll be very disappointed," customer.

再说一次，你首先投资并重点关注入职/激活人员的原因是因为这与保留率和这个必须拥有的客户，这个“我会非常失望”的客户密切相关。

Sean Ellis: Yeah.

肖恩·埃利斯：是的。

And they're at highest risk of losing them at that point.

那时他们失去这些的风险最高。

They-

他们——

Sean Ellis: They're at highest risk of losing them at that point.

肖恩·埃利斯：那时他们失去他们的风险最高。

They're probably a little skeptical about a promise that you put out there, but they're intrigued enough to want to use it.

他们可能对你做出的承诺有点怀疑，但他们对此很感兴趣，想要使用它。

But until you get them to that must-have experience, until you kind of get them to that aha moment, they're at their high risk of being lost.

但是，除非你让他们获得那种必须拥有的体验，直到你让他们获得那种顿悟时刻，否则他们就面临着迷失的高风险。

And so a lot of people focus on, "Well, I better get their email address or their phone number." But then you're essentially having to reacquire them at that point.

因此，很多人关注的是，“好吧，我最好得到他们的电子邮件地址或电话号码。”但那时你基本上必须重新获得它们。

So to me, if you can collapse that time to value, I can give you a couple of incredible examples of when we

所以对我来说，如果你能把这段时间压缩到价值，我可以给你几个令人难以置信的例子来说明我们何时

Sean Ellis: So at LogMeIn, when we initially tried to grow the business, I was stuck at being able to spend...

Sean Ellis：所以在 LogMeIn，当我们最初尝试发展业务时，我被困在能够花钱的问题上......

I couldn't spend more than $10,000 per month profitably trying to grow the business.

我每月无法花费超过 10,000 美元来发展业务并获得盈利。

And then I dug into the data and I saw that 95% of the people signing up for LogMeIn.

然后我深入研究了数据，发现 95% 的人注册了 LogMeIn。

So LogMeIn, at the time free remote access for your computer.

所以LogMeIn，当时可以免费远程访问您的计算机。

And so you install software and you can control it from any other computer.

因此，您安装软件后就可以从任何其他计算机控制它。

So 95% of the people signing up never once did a remote control session.

因此，95% 的注册者从未进行过远程控制会话。

And so not surprisingly, then I had to get my monetization off the 5% who did that was really limiting my ability to find channels that worked.

因此，毫不奇怪，我必须从 5% 的人那里获得货币化，这确实限制了我寻找有效渠道的能力。

Sean Ellis: Credit our CEO with this, that I shared the data with him and he basically told the product team, "We are putting a complete freeze on the product development roadmap." So every single person from product, engineering, design and then also said to me, "Stop trying to find new channels." The three of us on the marketing side are all going to focus on improving the signup to usage rate.

肖恩·埃利斯：这要归功于我们的首席执行官，我与他分享了数据，他基本上告诉产品团队，“我们正在完全冻结产品开发路线图。”因此，来自产品、工程、设计的每个人都对我说，“不要再试图寻找新的渠道了。”我们营销方面的三个人都将专注于提高注册使用率。

And so in three months, we improve the signup to usage rate by a thousand percent.

因此，在三个月内，我们将注册使用率提高了百分之一千。

So we went from only 5% of people using the product to 50%.

因此，我们从只有 5% 的人使用该产品增加到 50%。

I went back, tried the exact same channels that previously only scaled to $10,000 a month.

我回去尝试了之前每月仅 10,000 美元的完全相同的渠道。

Sean Ellis: Now they scaled to a million dollars a month with a three-month payback on marketing dollars invested.

Sean Ellis：现在他们的规模扩大到每月 100 万美元，营销资金投资可在三个月内收回。

80% of new users were coming in through word of mouth.

80% 的新用户是通过口碑进来的。

So there was this major inflection point by just focusing on activation.

因此，仅仅关注激活就出现了这个主要的拐点。

Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by Merge.

Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 Merge 为您带来。

Product leaders, yes, like you, cringe when they hear the word integration.

是的，产品领导者和你一样，在听到集成这个词时会感到畏缩。

They're not fun for you to scope, build, launch or maintain, and integrations probably aren't what led you to product work in the first place.

对于您来说，确定范围、构建、启动或维护它们并不有趣，并且集成可能不是您最初从事产品工作的原因。

Lucky for you.

你很幸运。

The folks at Merge are obsessed with integrations.

Merge 的员工热衷于集成。

Their single API helps SaaS companies launch over 200 product integrations in weeks, not quarters.

他们的单一 API 可帮助 SaaS 公司在几周内（而不是几个季度）推出 200 多个产品集成。

Think of Merge like Plaid, but for everything B2B SaaS.

将 Merge 想象为 Plaid，但适用于所有 B2B SaaS。

Organizations like Ramp, Dorada and Electric use Merge to access their customer's accounting data to reconcile bill payments, file storage data to create searchable databases in their product or HRIS data to auto-provision and de-provision access for their customer's employees.

Ramp、Dorada 和 Electric 等组织使用 Merge 来访问客户的会计数据以协调账单支付、文件存储数据以在其产品中创建可搜索数据库或 HRIS 数据以自动配置和取消配置客户员工的访问权限。

Lenny Rachitsky: And yes, if you need AI-ready data for your SaaS product, then Merge is the fastest way to get it.

Lenny Rachitsky：是的，如果您的 SaaS 产品需要人工智能就绪的数据，那么合并是获取它的最快方法。

So want to solve your organization's integration dilemma once and for all?

那么想一劳永逸地解决您组织的整合困境吗？

Book and attend a meeting at merge.dev/lenny and receive a $50 Amazon gift card.

在 merge.dev/lenny 上预订并参加会议即可获得价值 50 美元的亚马逊礼品卡。

That's merge.dev/lenny.

那是 merge.dev/lenny。

What do you find often works in helping increase activation?

您发现什么通常有助于提高激活率？

I know there's a million things that people do, but I guess what are three or four things that you think people should definitely try to help improve activation and their onboarding conversion?

我知道人们会做一百万件事，但我想您认为人们绝对应该尝试帮助提高激活和入职转化率的三到四件事是什么？

Sean Ellis: One of my favorite quotes is a quote from a guy Kettering, who was a hundred years ago at GM running innovation.

肖恩·埃利斯（Sean Ellis）：我最喜欢的名言之一是凯特林（Kettering）的名言，他一百年前在通用汽车负责创新。

And he says, "A problem well stated is a problem half solved." And so I think a lot of it comes down to not the things you try, but how you deeply understand the problem that's preventing someone from using your product effectively.

他说：“问题表述清楚，问题就解决了一半。”因此，我认为这很大程度上取决于您尝试的事情，而不是您如何深刻理解阻碍某人有效使用您的产品的问题。

And so I'll just give you one example.

我只举一个例子。

We had one channel after we made a lot of these changes and had already driven a ton of improvement in the LogMeIn onboarding.

在进行了大量更改后，我们有了一个渠道，并且已经推动了 LogMeIn 入门的大量改进。

We found a demand generation channel that was really cheap and the economics looked great, but at just the download step we had a 90% drop off rate.

我们发现了一个非常便宜的需求生成渠道，而且经济看起来很棒，但仅在下载步骤中，我们就有 90% 的下降率。

Sean Ellis: And so we A/B tested a bunch of different things there to try to improve that conversion rate, and then finally 10 plus tests, not able to improve it.

Sean Ellis：所以我们在那里进行了一系列不同的 A/B 测试，试图提高转化率，最后进行了 10 多个测试，但无法提高转化率。

Finally, someone said, "When these people are registering.

最后，有人说道：“当这些人登记的时候。

Why don't we just ask them why they signed up and didn't download the software?" And so we didn't want to do it in too kind of a creepy way.

我们为什么不直接问他们为什么注册但没有下载软件呢？”所以我们不想以一种令人毛骨悚然的方式来做这件事。

So we made it look like a note coming from customer service.

所以我们让它看起来像是来自客户服务的注释。

This channel was sending 200,000 people a day, so 20,000 people were converting to registering.

该频道每天发送 200,000 人次，因此有 20,000 人转化为注册。

So we had essentially 20,000 people we could email and then 18,000 of them who didn't download.

因此，我们基本上可以向 20,000 人发送电子邮件，然后有 18,000 人没有下载。

And so we just asked, "Hey, notice you haven't had a chance to use the product yet.

所以我们只是问，“嘿，请注意，您还没有机会使用该产品。

Sean Ellis: It looked like it was coming from customer support.

Sean Ellis：看起来它来自客户支持。

What happened?" And the answer we got back and not a formal survey was, "Oh, this seemed too good to be true.

发生什么事了？”我们得到的不是正式调查的答案是：“哦，这似乎好得令人难以置信。

I didn't believe this was free." I mentioned to you we were one of the first freemium SaaS products out there.

我不相信这是免费的。”我向你提到过我们是最早的免费增值 SaaS 产品之一。

And so people were skeptical, especially in a demand gen channel where they hadn't seen a radio or a TV advertisement from our competitor who was a premium only product.

因此，人们对此表示怀疑，尤其是在需求生成频道中，他们没有看到我们的竞争对手的广播或电视广告，而我们的竞争对手只是高端产品。

These were people who were discovering the category for the first time they were getting there.

这些人是第一次发现这个类别。

Once we articulated what the problem was, our next test gave us a 300% improvement in the download rate, which was...

一旦我们明确了问题所在，我们的下一个测试就让我们的下载速率提高了 300%，这是......

Sean Ellis: We gave them a choice, download a trial of the paid version or download the free version, put a big graphical check mark next to the free version.

肖恩·埃利斯：我们给了他们一个选择，下载付费版本的试用版或下载免费版本，在免费版本旁边放一个大的图形复选标记。

But when they saw we had a business model and a trial of a paid version, the free version was credible.

但当他们看到我们有商业模式和付费版本的试用时，免费版本是可信的。

And so that essentially made that channel work for us.

因此，这基本上使该渠道为我们服务。

So I think again, it's that combination of qualitative research, looking at how others did it.

所以我再次认为，这是定性研究的结合，看看其他人是如何做到的。

We had this theory, our previous company had been a game company that didn't require a download.

我们有这样的理论，我们之前的公司是一家不需要下载的游戏公司。

So initially we had this theory that maybe just downloadable software can't be in the millions of new customers a month and so we're being unrealistic here.

因此，最初我们有这样的理论：也许只是可下载的软件不可能出现在每月数百万的新客户中，所以我们在这里是不切实际的。

Sean Ellis: But then we were like, "Are there any counter examples to that"?

肖恩·埃利斯：但后来我们想，“有没有反例”？

And no, the instant messengers are downloadable and they have hundreds of millions of customers, so let's study their download and install process and see if we have any ideas that we could borrow from that.

不，即时通讯工具是可以下载的，而且它们拥有数亿客户，所以让我们研究一下它们的下载和安装过程，看看我们是否有任何可以借鉴的想法。

So again, some inspiration, tried some of those things, it was a combination of just trying a bunch of different stuff that ultimately led to, I wouldn't say there was one big gain, it was a bunch of small gains.

所以，再次，一些灵感，尝试了其中的一些事情，这是尝试一堆不同的东西的组合，最终导致，我不会说有一个大的收获，而是一堆小的收获。

Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

So a few things for people to try if they're like, "Hey, how do I improve my activation rate?

因此，如果人们想“嘿，我如何提高我的激活率？

How do I improve my conversion rate?" Just drill further into what is stopping people from progressing.

如何提高转化率？”只需进一步深入了解是什么阻碍了人们进步。

Ask them, "Why did you bounce here?

问他们：“你为什么跳到这里？

What did you think this was going to be?

你认为这会是什么？

Why didn't you end up using this?" Look for inspiration from other products, I think people probably already know that.

你为什么最终不使用这个？”从其他产品中寻找灵感，我想人们可能已经知道了。

You talked about earlier this idea of the positioning, having a big impact of just figuring out.

您之前谈到了定位的想法，只要弄清楚就会产生很大的影响。

Lenny Rachitsky: They want an antivirus software.

Lenny Rachitsky：他们想要一款防病毒软件。

Let's make that very clear.

让我们说清楚。

"Hey we've got the best antivirus software, that's what we're here for." So there's probably just messaging that you find works a lot of times, right?

“嘿，我们拥有最好的防病毒软件，这就是我们的目的。”因此，您可能发现很多时候都有效的消息传递，对吗？

Sean Ellis: I mean your two big levers on driving a conversion are increase desire, reduce friction.

肖恩·埃利斯：我的意思是，推动转型的两大杠杆是增加欲望、减少摩擦。

And so you definitely want to increase the right desire.

所以你一定要增加正确的欲望。

Sometimes it can also just be reminding people along the way of what benefits you're going to get.

有时它也可以只是提醒人们您将获得什么好处。

In the case of LogmeIn, it was probably the most complicated funnel I've ever seen because you couldn't even get to the aha moment while you're sitting in front of the computer.

就 LogmeIn 而言，它可能是我见过的最复杂的漏斗，因为当你坐在电脑前时，你甚至无法获得顿悟时刻。

You had to actually go to a different computer and to use the service to remote control the computer you're in front of.

您实际上必须转到另一台计算机并使用该服务来远程控制您面前的计算机。

Sean Ellis: So it's not surprising that there was so many steps where we could lose people, but we just weren't that intentional about designing each of those steps initially.

Sean Ellis：因此，有这么多步骤可能会导致人员流失，这并不奇怪，但我们最初并没有刻意设计每一个步骤。

And it wasn't until we thought through why would we lose someone at this step and studying the data, which steps were we losing the most people at?

直到我们思考为什么我们会在这一步失去某人并研究数据，我们在哪些步骤失去最多的人？

Then deeply trying to contextualize why are we losing them there, coming up with a set of tests that we want to run and then having a good way of deciding which one to test first and ultimately focusing the tests on the areas where we're losing the most people.

然后深入地尝试了解为什么我们会在那里失去他们，提出一组我们想要运行的测试，然后有一个好的方法来决定首先测试哪个，并最终将测试集中在我们失去最多人员的领域。

Lenny Rachitsky: The other element of this is coming up with an activation metric and aligning on here's what we consider so activated.

Lenny Rachitsky：另一个要素是提出一个激活指标，并与我们认为如此激活的指标相一致。

I know this is very dependent on the product, but any advice or heuristic for how to help people decide this is our activated user.

我知道这非常依赖于产品，但是任何关于如何帮助人们决定这是我们激活的用户的建议或启发。

Sean Ellis: I tend to start qualitatively.

肖恩·埃利斯：我倾向于从定性开始。

So just like when do I think they've had a good enough experience with the product to really know it?

那么就像我什么时候认为他们对产品有足够好的体验来真正了解它一样？

And so in the case of LogMeIn, it was pretty easy.

就 LogMeIn 而言，这非常简单。

If they didn't do a remote control session, they didn't use the product.

如果他们没有进行远程控制会话，他们就不会使用该产品。

There was no value along the way there.

一路上没有任何价值。

And then at least try to see if there's a correlation to long-term retention of doing that.

然后至少尝试看看是否与长期保留这样做有关联。

Causation is you need to do some experimentation to prove causation.

因果关系是你需要做一些实验来证明因果关系。

At the very least, I want to see that correlation, but if I start with two or three ideas of what it might be and then go and study the data, that can help you focus.

至少，我想看到这种相关性，但如果我从两三个关于它可能是什么的想法开始，然后去研究数据，这可以帮助你集中注意力。

Sean Ellis: But again, I don't think there's necessarily one exact right answer of what is that aha moment.

肖恩·埃利斯：但是，我认为对于什么是“顿悟时刻”不一定有一个确切的正确答案。

There might be two or three different things.

可能有两到三种不同的事情。

I think it's that intentionality about picking something that's experience-based and saying, "What is a likely experience that someone's going to get a good enough taste of this product?" And then I do see some companies that are like, "Well, the activation moment should be, they've used it a hundred times." That's going to correlate to long-term retention, but it's just not very actionable.

我认为这是一种有意选择基于体验的东西，并说：“人们可能会获得什么样的体验来充分体验该产品？”然后我确实看到一些公司会说，“好吧，激活时刻应该是，他们已经使用了一百次了。”这将与长期保留相关，但它的可行性并不高。

It's so far down the user experience.

用户体验太差了。

Sean Ellis: So ideally if there's a way that I could get them there in the first session, in the first day, that's great.

Sean Ellis：所以理想情况下，如果有一种方法可以让我在第一天的第一堂课中就达到目标，那就太好了。

And so it's sort of something that's value that can be experienced super early.

所以这是一种可以尽早体验到的有价值的东西。

To give you an example from the first company I worked on was a game company, where I actually flipped it and basically instead of making a traditional funnel where they could play our games after they signed up, I made our games the advertisements.

举个例子，我工作的第一家公司是一家游戏公司，我实际上翻转了它，基本上不是制作一个传统的渠道，让他们在注册后可以玩我们的游戏，而是让我们的游戏成为广告。

So basically we syndicated our games to 40,000 websites.

所以基本上我们将我们的游戏联合到 40,000 个网站。

Sean Ellis: They started gameplay experience on the other website, then they would get a message that they now have a qualifying score and if they register, they'll be in the drawing for the weekly cash prize and then we could pull them into multiplayer games on the site.

肖恩·埃利斯：他们在另一个网站上开始游戏体验，然后他们会收到一条消息，表明他们现在有资格分数，如果他们注册，他们将参与每周现金奖励的抽奖，然后我们可以将他们拉到网站上的多人游戏中。

And so it's kind of the strategy that YouTube used to grow, but it was two years before YouTube introduced the approach.

这就是 YouTube 用来发展的策略，但 YouTube 是在两年后才引入这种方法的。

Lenny Rachitsky: It feels like you basically created Zynga, is what I'm hearing there.

Lenny Rachitsky：感觉就像是你创建了 Zynga，这就是我所听到的。

So let's move further down the funnel.

因此，让我们进一步沿着漏斗向下移动。

So we've talked about activation, onboarding.

我们已经讨论了激活、入职。

The next phase that you focus on is basically some people call this growth loops, growth engines, flywheels.

你关注的下一个阶段基本上是一些人称之为增长循环、增长引擎、飞轮的阶段。

Basically it's the thing that helps your business grow and something I am curious if this resonates.

基本上，这是帮助您的业务发展的东西，我很好奇这是否会引起共鸣。

Lenny Rachitsky: I found there's basically four ways to grow and usually one of these engines is responsible for almost all of your growth.

Lenny Rachitsky：我发现基本上有四种成长方式，通常其中一种引擎负责几乎所有的成长。

So what I've seen is basically you're going to go through sales, you're going to grow through SEO, you're going to go through virality, word of mouth or paid growth.

所以我所看到的基本上是，你将经历销售，你将通过搜索引擎优化实现增长，你将经历病毒式传播、口碑传播或付费增长。

Does that resonate?

这引起共鸣吗？

Does that feel right?

感觉对吗？

Sean Ellis: And I wouldn't say it's necessarily one or the other.

肖恩·埃利斯：我不会说这一定是其中之一。

I think Bounce is a really interesting example where SEO is super important for Bounce.

我认为 Bounce 是一个非常有趣的例子，SEO 对于 Bounce 来说非常重要。

So people who are essentially saying, "Luggage storage, Paris.

所以人们本质上是在说：“行李寄存，巴黎。

Luggage storage..." Most people when they're trying to find a place to store their luggage, they're starting with Google, but at the same time, a huge percentage of the people who use Bounce are dragging their bag down a street over cobblestones in Paris.

行李寄存……”大多数人在寻找寄存行李的地方时，都会从 Google 开始，但与此同时，使用 Bounce 的很大一部分人是在巴黎的鹅卵石街道上拖着行李。

And then they pass a sign that says, "Store your bag here for $5 a day." And it's like, "Oh, no-brainer." And so 10,000 partners around the world means that there's a lot of people in the right situation on the demand gen side.

然后他们经过一个牌子，上面写着：“把你的包寄存在这里，每天 5 美元。”就像，“哦，不用想也知道。”因此，全球 10,000 个合作伙伴意味着在需求生成方面有很多人处于合适的位置。

Sean Ellis: One would be, I actually think of kind of...

肖恩·埃利斯：其中之一是，我实际上认为……

I'm not sure how it would map to this, but demand generation versus demand harvesting.

我不确定它会如何映射到这一点，但需求生成与需求收获。

And so one of those examples would be a...

所以这些例子之一是......

Demand generation example, when you see the signs when you're passing, it's high context, right place.

需求生成示例，当您经过时看到标志时，它是高上下文、正确的位置。

And then obviously the demand harvesting would be anyone who's Googling.

显然，任何使用谷歌搜索的人都会获得需求。

And so they do paid search and organic search there.

所以他们在那里进行付费搜索和有机搜索。

Lenny Rachitsky: Interesting.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：有趣。

I don't see that sign approach work often, but I definitely have seen it work.

我并不经常看到这种标志方法有效，但我确实见过它有效。

Like Yelp I think grew in a lot of ways of just little Yelp stickers in all the restaurant.

就像 Yelp 一样，我认为在很多方面都在通过在所有餐厅贴上 Yelp 贴纸来实现增长。

DoorDash I think probably grows through that.

我认为 DoorDash 可能会通过这一点而成长。

Sean Ellis: I think every business could be a little bit different, but for Bounce it makes sense that that would be a really good opportunity for them.

Sean Ellis：我认为每个企业都可能有点不同，但对于 Bounce 来说，这对他们来说是一个非常好的机会，这是有道理的。

Lenny Rachitsky: How do you help a business figure out which area to bet on?

Lenny Rachitsky：您如何帮助企业确定应该押注哪个领域？

Whether they should go paid, whether they should go SEO, whether they should hire sales.

他们是否应该付费，是否应该进行搜索引擎优化，是否应该雇用销售人员。

Sales is probably an easier one.

销售可能是一个更容易的事情。

B2B, you're probably going to have to be a sales team, I guess just to help them pick, "Here's where you have a big opportunity."

B2B，你可能必须成为一个销售团队，我想只是为了帮助他们选择，“这就是你有很大机会的地方。”

Sean Ellis: Again, it kind of comes down as I'm going into it, I'm thinking what are the realistic customer acquisition angles for this business?

肖恩·埃利斯：同样，当我进入这个领域时，我在想这个业务的实际客户获取角度是什么？

And I want to have ideally two or three that I'm coming into it with, but it's going to...

理想情况下，我希望有两到三个我可以参与其中，但这将会......

Obviously Dropbox is a classic one of like, "Oh man, this product..." User get user is going to be just a classic.

显然，Dropbox 是一个经典产品，“天啊，这个产品......”用户获取用户将成为一个经典产品。

There's file share built into it, folder collaboration.

其中内置了文件共享和文件夹协作功能。

There's so many pieces of it that cross from one user to the next.

它有很多部分从一个用户跨越到另一个用户。

But interestingly, it was fairly similar to LogMeIn in some senses, it's two businesses are solving similar problems in different ways.

但有趣的是，它在某种意义上与 LogMeIn 非常相似，两家公司正在以不同的方式解决类似的问题。

Where LogMeIn, we grew almost entirely off of paid search.

LogMeIn 的发展几乎完全依靠付费搜索。

And part of it again is that for us, we had a competitor that was spending tens of millions of dollars a month creating the category with a premium only product through radio and TV advertising.

部分原因是，对于我们来说，我们的竞争对手每月花费数千万美元，通过广播和电视广告来创建仅提供优质产品的类别。

GoToMyPC, they're creating all this latent demand.

GoToMyPC，他们正在创造所有这些潜在需求。

And so it just made sense for us to disrupt them with a freemium service and to insert ourselves in the flow of someone...

因此，我们通过免费增值服务扰乱他们并将自己融入某人的流程中是有意义的......

What was that thing that I heard about on the TV commercial?

我在电视广告中听到的那件事是什么？

And now they go and they Google it and same thing, but free.

现在他们去谷歌搜索同样的东西，但免费。

So we weren't really pushing for differentiation, but just really trying to harvest that.

所以我们并不是真的在推动差异化，而是真的在努力收获差异化。

Sean Ellis: So I couldn't do that at Dropbox.

Sean Ellis：所以我在 Dropbox 无法做到这一点。

No one was looking for when I went there.

我去的时候没人找。

And so we tried a little bit with search to see can we make it work on cloud storage or backup or kind of going to some of these traditional categories.

因此，我们在搜索方面进行了一些尝试，看看我们是否可以使其在云存储或备份或某些传统类别中工作。

Cloud storage wasn't even a traditional category at that point, but backup was, and it was fairly expensive and there was just not that much demand there that way.

当时云存储甚至还不是一个传统的类别，但备份是，而且它相当昂贵，而且这种方式的需求并不大。

And so it just made more sense to focus on the user get user loops at Dropbox.

因此，在 Dropbox 上关注用户获取用户循环更有意义。

Sean Ellis: I think basically for each business it's just thinking about what's unique for that business that is going to open up channel opportunities and everyone's going to be a little bit, I think jaded from whatever the last thing that worked really well.

肖恩·埃利斯：我认为基本上对于每个企业来说，它只是考虑该企业的独特之处，这将打开渠道机会，每个人都会有点，我认为对最后一个非常有效的事情感到厌倦。

They're going to think they can apply it in the next business.

他们会认为他们可以将其应用到下一个业务中。

But after enough times myself, I tend to get the most inspiration by just talking to customers and finding out how did they find it, how do they typically find something like that?

但在我自己经历了足够多的次数之后，我倾向于通过与客户交谈并了解他们是如何找到它的，他们通常如何找到类似的东西来获得最多的灵感？

And that starts to give me some ideas as well.

这也开始给我一些想法。

Lenny Rachitsky: I think that last point is really powerful and I'm just writing it down.

Lenny Rachitsky：我认为最后一点非常有力，我只是把它写下来。

You said, essentially one of your tactics is talking to users, asking them how did you find this product and how do you normally find products like this?

你说，本质上你的策略之一就是与用户交谈，询问他们你是如何找到这个产品的，以及你通常如何找到这样的产品？

Is that the second question?

这是第二个问题吗？

I think it's similar to your test.

我想这和你的测试很相似。

It's such a simple question, but it's so powerful because how else will people find your product?

这是一个如此简单的问题，但它是如此强大，因为人们还能如何找到你的产品呢？

They go to a place to find stuff like this, and I searched Google for folder sharing.

他们去一个地方寻找类似的东西，我在谷歌上搜索文件夹共享。

There's so much there that you just skip over.

那里有太多内容，您可以跳过。

Sean Ellis: I think the reason that you don't actually hear people taking the obvious route there a lot of times is because, and I used to be in the same thing, that people tend to be either over indexed on qualitative or over indexed on quantitative.

肖恩·埃利斯：我认为你实际上没有听到人们多次采取明显路线的原因是因为，我曾经也遇到过同样的事情，人们往往要么在定性上过度索引，要么在定量上过度索引。

So it's like analytics, I'm going to get all my answers from testing and analytics or I'm going to get all my answers from traditional customer research.

所以这就像分析一样，我将从测试和分析中获得所有答案，或者从传统的客户研究中获得所有答案。

And I was very much in that initial camp for the first five years of my career.

在我职业生涯的前五年里，我基本上处于这个初始阵营。

I'm just going to measure everything and test the heck out of things and find stuff that works.

我只是要测量一切并测试一切并找到有效的东西。

But I had a VC who was our lead VC at LogMeIn who just said, "When was the last time you talked to a customer?"

但我有一位 VC，他是 LogMeIn 的首席 VC，他只是说：“你最后一次与客户交谈是什么时候？”

Sean Ellis: Just pushed me to survey and talk to customers all the time.

肖恩·埃利斯：只是促使我一直进行调查并与客户交谈。

And at first I gave the smart-ass answer, "I don't care what they say, I care what they do." And he's like, "No, you got to talk to him." Then just to appease him, I would try to have a conversation every day because he was in our office a lot and so I could say, "Hey, yeah, I talked to a customer today," when he would ask me.

起初我给出了一个自作聪明的答案：“我不在乎他们说什么，我在乎他们做了什么。”他说：“不，你必须和他谈谈。”然后为了安抚他，我会尝试每天进行一次对话，因为他经常在我们的办公室里，所以当他问我时，我可以说，“嘿，是的，我今天和一位客户谈过。”

But I started finding that my experiments were so much better the more I talked to customers, and eventually I became very much...

但我开始发现，与客户交谈越多，我的实验就越好，最终我变得非常……

The blend of qualitative and quantitative research leads to much better tests.

定性和定量研究的结合可以带来更好的测试。

Lenny Rachitsky: That is another amazing story and insight.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是另一个令人惊叹的故事和见解。

It's so interesting that people sometimes think of you as growth hacker guy experiments data, when most of the advice we've been sharing so far is very qualitative driven, very survey driven, targeting customers driven.

有趣的是，人们有时会认为你是实验数据的增长黑客，而我们迄今为止分享的大多数建议都是非常定性驱动的，非常调查驱动的，目标客户驱动的。

Sean Ellis: And it is just really hard to run good experiments when you can't deeply contextualize what's going on.

Sean Ellis：当你无法深入了解正在发生的事情时，就很难进行良好的实验。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love this.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢这个。

By the way, I don't know if I knew this.

顺便说一句，我不知道我是否知道这一点。

So you helped develop the Dropbox referral program?

那么您帮助开发了 Dropbox 推荐计划？

Sean Ellis: I was there at the time.

肖恩·埃利斯：我当时就在场。

Basically, even when I first started talking with Drew.

基本上，即使当我第一次开始与德鲁交谈时也是如此。

Before I came in, I was like, "I think the way we're going to grow this business is by leveraging the really passionate customer base and that's what we need to double down on." And we had tried a similar kind of referral program at Zabni and a friend who actually started Ring, Jamie Simonoff, previously had a company called PhoneTag way before Ring, and he had actually done a lot of the testing on double-sided referral programs and having incentive on both sides, and he found that that worked the best.

在我加入之前，我想，“我认为我们发展这项业务的方式是利用真正热情的客户群，这就是我们需要加倍努力的。”我们在 Zabni 尝试过类似的推荐计划，而一位真正创办了 Ring 的朋友杰米·西蒙诺夫 (Jamie Simonoff) 早在 Ring 之前就拥有一家名为 PhoneTag 的公司，他实际上对双边推荐计划进行了大量测试，并对双方都有激励，他发现这种方法效果最好。

Sean Ellis: And so between what we had tested at Zabni and those conversations with him, I hadn't actually seen PayPal yet at that point, what they were doing.

Sean Ellis：因此，在我们在 Zabni 进行的测试以及与他的对话之间，我当时还没有真正看到 PayPal，他们在做什么。

But that was kind of like...

但那有点像...

It seems like a referral program where we have incentives on both sides is the best way to go.

看起来我们双方都有激励的推荐计划是最好的方法。

Interestingly, six months before I was at Dropbox, I was at LogMeIn, and I really thought about having incentivized referrals at LogMeIn, but 80% of our new users were coming in through word of mouth.

有趣的是，在我加入 Dropbox 的六个月前，我在 LogMeIn，我确实考虑过在 LogMeIn 进行激励推荐，但我们 80% 的新用户都是通过口碑进来的。

And I had a hundred million devices connected in on our system, and I was just so afraid of breaking this growth engine by adding an incentive that I didn't want to risk it.

我的系统上连接了一亿台设备，我非常害怕通过添加激励措施来破坏这个增长引擎，所以我不想冒险。

Sean Ellis: But at Dropbox it was so early.

Sean Ellis：但在 Dropbox，一切都太早了。

I would still say no experiment is one person.

我仍然想说没有一个实验是一个人的。

It happened to be when I was there, I had some insights that I brought in, but ultimately...

碰巧当我在那里的时候，我有了一些见解，但最终......

The guy who built it was actually an intern named Albert Knee and he ended up dropping out, I think, out of MIT to stay with Dropbox for a few years after that.

建造它的人实际上是一位名叫 Albert Knee 的实习生，我想他最终从 MIT 退学，在 Dropbox 工作了几年。

But he was kind of my right-hand guy to collaborating on growth day to day.

但他是我日常合作增长的得力助手。

Lenny Rachitsky: Wow.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：哇。

I would say Dropbox is the referral program, and the PayPal referral program, as you mentioned, are the two most legendary, studied, copied referral programs out there.

我想说 Dropbox 是推荐计划，而 PayPal 推荐计划，正如您提到的，是两个最具传奇色彩、最受研究、最复制的推荐计划。

Sean Ellis: Unfortunately, I think that what they don't realize is that before the referral program, Dropbox had amazing referral rate.

Sean Ellis：不幸的是，我认为他们没有意识到，在推荐计划之前，Dropbox 的推荐率非常惊人。

Companies that are trying to copy it are like, "Why isn't anyone talking about a product?

试图复制它的公司会说：“为什么没有人谈论产品？

Let's add a referral program with incentives." To me, I think it's a great accelerant when it's already working, but it can't fix it if people don't want to talk about your product.

让我们添加一个带有激励措施的推荐计划。”对我来说，我认为当它已经发挥作用时，它是一个很好的促进剂，但如果人们不想谈论你的产品，它就无法解决它。

Lenny Rachitsky: That's an awesome point and something I was just going to ask about and just coming back to this topic of growing engagement, growing referrals as a growth mechanism, what do you look for to tell you that there's an opportunity there?

Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个很棒的观点，我只是想问这个问题，然后回到这个主题，即增加参与度、增加推荐作为一种增长机制，您希望通过什么来告诉您那里有机会？

And I'll just answer it, partly I've seen exactly what you just said, which is you need to already have strong word of mouth growth because referrals kind sits on that and gives you a little more incentive to share.

我会回答这个问题，部分我已经完全明白了你刚才所说的，那就是你需要已经拥有强大的口碑增长，因为推荐类型依赖于这一点，并给你更多的分享动力。

So maybe do you agree with that, not agree to that?

那么也许您同意这一点，或者不同意这一点？

Any other advice on helping figure out is there some kind of loop here that we can build?

还有其他建议可以帮助弄清楚我们是否可以构建某种循环吗？

Sean Ellis: Well, one thing I will say is freemium when we first started with it, as I said, we were one of the first with it, so it took me a while to figure out exactly how freemium worked, but to me, freemium towards having a free and a premium version of your product to really work in any business, it needs to be that your free product is so good that people naturally have word of mouth around that product.

肖恩·埃利斯：嗯，我要说的一件事是，当我们第一次开始使用免费增值时，正如我所说，我们是最早使用它的公司之一，所以我花了一段时间才弄清楚免费增值到底是如何运作的，但对我来说，免费增值要让你的产品有免费和高级版本才能真正在任何企业中发挥作用，你的免费产品必须非常好，人们自然而然地对该产品有口碑。

And then to be economically viable, you have to have a premium product that's better enough and differentiated enough that people are going to upgrade to the premium product.

然后，为了在经济上可行，你必须拥有足够更好、足够差异化的优质产品，以便人们升级到优质产品。

Sean Ellis: But I think a lot of times people are so worried about the second part that they make the free version not very good and then they're surprised when word of mouth isn't very strong there.

肖恩·埃利斯：但我认为很多时候人们非常担心第二部分，以至于他们把免费版本做得不太好，然后当他们的口碑不是很好时，他们会感到惊讶。

So I think you have to essentially have two distinct products that are great on their own.

所以我认为你必须本质上拥有两种各自出色的不同产品。

So that would be the one piece, but then obviously companies that have any kind of collaborative layer to them are going to be more likely to work well with referral.

所以这将是一件事情，但显然，拥有任何类型的协作层的公司将更有可能与推荐合作良好。

And then I think on the engagement side, a lot of it comes down to just the nature of the product.

然后我认为在参与方面，很大程度上取决于产品的性质。

Sean Ellis: Like Airbnb, you're not going to use it every day unless you're like a vagrant or something and then you wouldn't have money to pay for it.

Sean Ellis：就像 Airbnb 一样，你不会每天都使用它，除非你像个流浪汉之类的，然后你就没有钱支付它。

So there's kind a natural usage cycle to products and you want to be able to maximize against that cycle.

因此，产品有一个自然的使用周期，您希望能够最大限度地利用该周期。

That's where I was saying, coming back to the hooked model, I think is a really good way to help to have a framework to think about how do I improve engagement.

这就是我所说的，回到上瘾模型，我认为这是一个非常好的方法，可以帮助建立一个框架来思考如何提高参与度。

One good counter example to that though of the natural frequency of using a product is Facebook when they change their North Star Metric from monthly active users to daily active users.

Facebook 是使用产品自然频率的一个很好的反例，他们将北极星指标从每月活跃用户更改为每日活跃用户。

I think, again, just having what gets measured gets managed.

我再次认为，只要测量得到的东西就可以得到管理。

Sean Ellis: Once Facebook was on a daily active user goal, the team suddenly had a lot more incentive to think about, "How do I bring people back every day and use this product?" Where when it was monthly active users, they kind of only got credit for that person for using once in that month.

Sean Ellis：一旦 Facebook 实现了每日活跃用户目标，团队就会突然有更多的动力去思考“我如何让人们每天回来使用这个产品？”当它是每月活跃用户时，他们只能因为该人在该月使用一次而获得积分。

And even if they used 10 times, they didn't get 10 times the credit.

而且就算使用了10次，也没有得到10倍的功劳。

It was just like a, "Oh, that's cool too." But they weren't sort of measured on that.

就像是，“哦，那也很酷。”但他们并没有对此进行衡量。

And so I think it was sort of a random decision for Mark Zuckerberg to move from a monthly active to a daily active because they hit 1 billion monthly active users and they're like, "Okay, let's go for 1 billion daily active users."

因此，我认为马克·扎克伯格从月活跃用户转向日活跃用户是一个随机决定，因为他们的月活跃用户达到了 10 亿，他们会说，“好吧，让我们争取 10 亿日活跃用户吧。”

Sean Ellis: But it had a really big impact on making that product way more addictive to the point where obviously they ended up in Congress or get a lot of pushback.

肖恩·埃利斯：但这对让该产品更容易上瘾产生了很大的影响，显然它们最终进入了国会或受到了很多阻力。

I'm not sure they went to Congress for that, but they got a lot of pushback for having a product that's maybe too addictive.

我不确定他们是否为此而去国会，但他们因为拥有可能太容易上瘾的产品而受到了很大的阻力。

And the same thing carrying into Instagram and some of the other Meta products or basically anything that is highly engaging.

Instagram 和其他一些 Meta 产品或基本上任何高度吸引人的产品也有同样的效果。

So I do think the right incentives can actually help a team to focus on it, but there's going to be sort of a natural usage cycle to any product as well.

因此，我确实认为正确的激励措施实际上可以帮助团队专注于它，但任何产品也都会有一个自然的使用周期。

Lenny Rachitsky: I'm glad you mentioned North Star Metrics.

Lenny Rachitsky：我很高兴您提到北极星指标。

I actually have a post I will link to in the show notes where I collected the North Star Metrics of 30 different companies to give you some inspiration.

实际上，我在展会笔记中有一篇文章链接到其中，我收集了 30 家不同公司的北极星指标，为您提供一些灵感。

I know this is a deep topic of its own, but just when someone is trying to pick their own North Star Metrics, which I 1000% agree, informs so much about how your company operates.

我知道这本身就是一个深刻的话题，但当有人试图选择自己的北极星指标时（我 1000% 同意），它可以让您了解公司的运营方式。

It basically focuses everyone's incentives to let's drive this thing.

它基本上集中了每个人的动力来推动这件事。

And that changes so much of what you're building.

这极大地改变了你正在构建的东西。

Any just bullet point piece of advice for helping you pick your North Star Metrics?

有什么简单的建议可以帮助您选择北极星指标吗？

Sean Ellis: I start with the value that's uncovered through the test.

Sean Ellis：我从通过测试发现的价值开始。

So with a company, I'll say, "Okay, this is what the must have value is according to our most passionate customers, and we want to think about a metric that reflects us delivering that value." And then I'll give them kind of a framework of ways to think about a North Star Metric.

因此，对于一家公司，我会说，“好吧，这就是我们最热情的客户认为必须具备的价值，我们想要考虑一个反映我们交付该价值的指标。”然后我会给他们一个思考北极星指标的框架。

But I think it's really important for it to be a time capped group conversation.

但我认为进行有时间限制的小组对话非常重要。

And if you give a team 30 days, they'll take 30 days.

如果你给一个团队 30 天的时间，他们就会花 30 天。

If you give them six months, they'll take six months.

如果你给他们六个月的时间，他们就会花六个月的时间。

Sean Ellis: But I think generally a team can come up with a pretty good North Star Metric after 30 minutes if they have the right raw ingredients and a checklist of what's important in a North Star Metric.

Sean Ellis：但我认为，如果团队拥有正确的原材料以及北极星指标中重要内容的清单，一般来说，他们可以在 30 分钟后得出一个相当不错的北极星指标。

Something that's not a ratio, it's something that can be up onto the right over time.

这不是一个比率，而是随着时间的推移可以上升到右边的东西。

So you can keep managing it and feeling good.

这样你就可以继续管理它并感觉良好。

It should correlate to revenue growth, but revenue shouldn't be the North Star Metric, but as you grow value across your customer base, you should be able to grow revenue at the same rate.

它应该与收入增长相关，但收入不应该是北极星指标，但当您在整个客户群中增加价值时，您应该能够以相同的速度增加收入。

And so there's-

所以有——

Sean Ellis: Revenue at the same rate.

肖恩·埃利斯：收入保持不变。

And so there's some other things, but I think that would be the most important, is that it's something that could be up and to the right over time and reflects value that you're delivering to customers.

还有其他一些事情，但我认为最重要的是，它可以随着时间的推移而正常运行，并反映您为客户提供的价值。

Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

And I was going to ask about revenue in your opinion there.

我想问一下你对那里的收入的看法。

And so your advice is don't make revenue or North star metric?

所以你的建议是不要制定收入或北极星指标？

Sean Ellis: No. Even Amazon, and again, this is just what I know of Amazon's as being but monthly purchases, but someone else might say Amazon, no Amazon's is GMV or something.

肖恩·埃利斯：不。即使是亚马逊，再说一遍，这只是我所知道的亚马逊的每月购买量，但其他人可能会说亚马逊，没有亚马逊的 GMV 之类的。

But I think monthly purchases is great because it maps to value that people are getting from Amazon.

但我认为每月的购买量很好，因为它映射了人们从亚马逊获得的价值。

And so even if I spend say $1000 on a TV set with Amazon versus $3 on a or $10 on an electric toothbrush, Amazon from the consumer's perspective delivered the same value.

因此，即使我花 1000 美元在亚马逊购买电视机，而花 3 美元购买电动牙刷或 10 美元购买电动牙刷，从消费者的角度来看，亚马逊也提供了相同的价值。

I needed something, Amazon helped me find that thing.

我需要一些东西，亚马逊帮我找到了那个东西。

And so units of value from the customer perspective I think is more important than overall revenue.

因此，我认为从客户角度来看，价值单位比总体收入更重要。

But clearly with Amazon focusing on driving more monthly purchases, at least on their store side of the business, that has helped them become one of most valuable companies in the world.

但显然，亚马逊专注于推动更多的每月购买量，至少在其商店方面的业务，这帮助他们成为世界上最有价值的公司之一。

So I think focusing on value is, revenue should be a product of doing things.

所以我认为关注价值就是，收入应该是做事的产物。

Right.

正确的。

It shouldn't kind of guide your day-to-day actions.

它不应该指导您的日常行为。

Lenny Rachitsky: To make this even more concrete for people, are there some North star metric examples you could share that you've seen that are good?

Lenny Rachitsky：为了让人们更具体地了解这一点，您是否可以分享一些您见过的很好的北极星指标示例？

Like say for Eventbrite or Dropbox or any companies you've worked with?

比如 Eventbrite 或 Dropbox 或任何与您合作过的公司？

And I'll share one real quick as you're thinking about it.

当你正在思考的时候，我会很快分享一个。

At Airbnb, our North star metric was nights booked.

在爱彼迎，我们的北极星指标是预订天数。

And so it's similar to Amazon.

所以它类似于亚马逊。

It's not like the money Airbnb made from bookings, but it's like nights booked and it was really, and basically every experiment ran is like, is this increasing night booked or is this decreasing night's book?

这与 Airbnb 从预订中赚到的钱不同，但这就像预订的夜数，而且确实如此，基本上每个实验都是这样的，预订的夜数是增加还是预订的夜数减少？

Sean Ellis: And so that's a really good marketplace one.

Sean Ellis：所以这是一个非常好的市场。

Uber obviously weekly rides.

优步显然每周都有乘车服务。

I'm always surprised with the Airbnb, that there's not a kind of time piece on it, like the weekly rides that you have with Uber, but maybe it's because it's such an infrequent use case on travel that it doesn't make sense to focus on.

我总是对 Airbnb 感到惊讶，因为它没有一种时间片，就像 Uber 每周提供的乘车服务一样，但也许是因为它在旅行中很少见，所以关注它没有意义。

Yeah.

是的。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。

Why is the timeframe important to you?

为什么时间范围对您来说很重要？

Why do you encourage that?

你为什么鼓励这样做？

Sean Ellis: Just daily active users, you saw the difference between monthly active users and daily active users could change behavior a lot at Facebook.

Sean Ellis：仅就每日活跃用户而言，您看到每月活跃用户和每日活跃用户之间的差异可能会极大地改变 Facebook 的行为。

It gives you a quantifiable way, if you're just kind of taking an aggregate number over time, it always looks like it's going up.

它为您提供了一种可量化的方法，如果您只是随着时间的推移获取总数字，它看起来总是在上升。

Lenny Rachitsky: So it's an engagement element of how often are they engaging.

Lenny Rachitsky：所以这是他们参与的频率的一个参与元素。

Lenny Rachitsky: Any others?

莱尼·拉奇茨基：还有其他人吗？

Any others real quick?

还有其他人真快吗？

Sean Ellis: Yeah, I mean, I didn't really think about North star metrics when I was at Dropbox and Eventbrite, like the term itself, but I was thinking about what is a valuable experience with Dropbox and how do I get people to have that more time?

Sean Ellis：是的，我的意思是，当我在 Dropbox 和 Eventbrite 工作时，我并没有真正考虑过北极星指标，就像这个术语本身一样，但我在思考什么是 Dropbox 的宝贵体验，以及如何让人们拥有更多时间？

But I don't even know what they go with today, but maybe files in Dropbox, files access might be better than just files hosted.

但我什至不知道它们今天会做什么，但也许 Dropbox 中的文件、文件访问可能比仅托管文件更好。

And then probably for Eventbrite, again, I would say weekly tickets or something like you could say weekly events, but then you have events that don't sell any tickets where weekly tickets would be more likely to reflect, events are going to be happy if they're selling tickets and yeah.

然后可能对于 Eventbrite，我会说每周门票或类似的每周活动，但是有些活动不出售任何门票，而每周门票更有可能反映，如果他们出售门票，活动就会很高兴，是的。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

Sean, we've gone through so much stuff.

肖恩，我们经历了很多事情。

I'm trying to limit how many more questions we get through just so that we don't,-

我试图限制我们要解决的问题数量，这样我们就不会-

Lenny Rachitsky: We're going long, which is amazing.

Lenny Rachitsky：我们会做多，这太棒了。

I think there's so much value here that we're collecting for folks.

我认为这里有很多价值值得我们为人们收集。

So let just ask maybe a couple more quick questions.

那么，让我们再问几个简单的问题吧。

One is actually from Andrew Chen who is currently partnered at a partner at A16z.

其中一个实际上来自 Andrew Chen，他目前是 A16z 的合伙人。

He wrote about growth for the longest time.

他写成长的时间最长。

I think he helped popularize growth hacking for better or worse with his article and it being the future of VP of what is it?

我认为他的文章无论好坏都帮助普及了增长黑客，这就是副总裁的未来是什么？

Growth Hacking is the new VP of marketing, right, Is the title.

Growth Hacking 是新任营销副总裁，对吧，就是头衔。

So he actually had a question for you that he shared with me.

所以他实际上有一个问题要问你并与我分享。

His question is, growth strategies have changed a lot over the past decade.

他的问题是，过去十年增长战略发生了很大变化。

What is the biggest difference now versus when you first started working on growth?

与您刚开始致力于增长时相比，现在最大的区别是什么？

Sean Ellis: When I first started just being data-driven on customer acquisition was enough to win and being test and data-driven on customer acquisition.

Sean Ellis：当我刚开始时，仅以数据驱动的客户获取就足以赢得胜利，并且在客户获取方面进行测试和数据驱动。

All the other companies were like CPM focused and so we could do really well just with lots of testing and some creativity in how it all worked.

所有其他公司都以 CPM 为重点，因此我们只需进行大量测试并在其运作方式上发挥一些创造力就可以做得很好。

But that over time as, now I would say most online marketers are very data and test drive.

但随着时间的推移，现在我想说大多数在线营销人员都非常注重数据和测试。

They know they need to do lots of testing.

他们知道他们需要进行大量测试。

And so to be competitive today, you actually have to be able to be super efficient at all parts of the business.

因此，今天要保持竞争力，您实际上必须能够在业务的各个方面都保持超高效率。

Sean Ellis: So again, like how you convert, retain, monetize, and that's when it gets hard.

肖恩·埃利斯：再说一次，就像你如何转化、保留、货币化一样，这就是它变得困难的时候。

Getting a marketing team to be data and test-driven is pretty easy.

让营销团队成为数据和测试驱动的团队非常容易。

Once you start getting into activation and referral and engagement and retention, now you're talking about the overlap between marketing, product if it's B2B, bringing sales in there, customer success, and those teams are not used to working together.

一旦你开始进入激活、推荐、参与和保留，现在你正在谈论营销、产品（如果是 B2B）、带来销售、客户成功之间的重叠，而这些团队不习惯一起工作。

And so it's really hard to drive the collaboration that's needed to have an effective testing program across the entire growth engine.

因此，推动在整个增长引擎中建立有效的测试计划所需的协作确实很困难。

And that's pretty much any business that's been successful with it, implemented it super early in the business, and so very few later stage companies have been able to make much progress in replicating that type of approach.

这几乎是任何成功利用它的企业，在业务的早期就实施了它，因此很少有后期公司能够在复制这种方法方面取得很大进展。

Lenny Rachitsky: It's just gotten harder basically.

Lenny Rachitsky：基本上变得更难了。

Things are just getting harder.

事情变得越来越困难。

Sean Ellis: It's gotten harder, but I think it's possible.

Sean Ellis：这变得更难了，但我认为这是可能的。

So it's what I obsess about all the time, is how do you get cross-functional teams working together on growth now?

所以我一直困扰的是，现在如何让跨职能团队共同努力实现增长？

And it's still a huge advantage when you can pull it off.

当你能够实现这一目标时，它仍然是一个巨大的优势。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

Totally unrelated question, going in completely different direction as we close out our chat.

完全不相关的问题，当我们结束聊天时，走向完全不同的方向。

So you came up with ICE, the very popular way of prioritizing work, which is crazy.

所以你想出了 ICE，这是一种非常流行的确定工作优先级的方式，这很疯狂。

I did not know that until I started prepping for this conversation.

直到我开始准备这次谈话时我才知道这一点。

What's your thoughts on RICE, the intercom version of ICE, where R stands for reach, I believe.

您对 RICE 有何看法，ICE 的对讲版本，我相信其中 R 代表“reach”。

Sean Ellis: So I think it's an unnecessary addition, but maybe I'm just being protective of my original idea, that the I in ICE is impact and it's essentially saying best case scenario, how much impact could we get from this?

Sean Ellis：所以我认为这是一个不必要的补充，但也许我只是在保护我最初的想法，即 ICE 中的 I 是影响力，它本质上是在说最好的情况，我们可以从中获得多少影响？

And reach is a super important part of impact.

影响力是影响力中非常重要的一部分。

And so I think it's already factored in the I in ICE.

所以我认为它已经被纳入 ICE 中的 I 中。

And so I think if there's anything that I would be accused of, it would be being over simplifying things and I'm not saying them, but there's a lot of people who approach things with, there's got to be a more complex way to approach this and that's just not me.

所以我认为，如果我会被指责什么，那就是过于简化事情，我不是说这些，但是有很多人处理事情，一定有一种更复杂的方法来处理这个问题，而那不是我。

And so yeah, more testing is better.

所以是的，更多的测试更好。

Sean Ellis: No, it doesn't just work like that.

肖恩·埃利斯：不，它不仅仅是这样工作的。

I mean, better tests are better than bad tests, but just if you have to hold yourself accountable to anything, more testing would be better.

我的意思是，更好的测试比糟糕的测试更好，但如果你必须让自己对任何事情负责，更多的测试会更好。

And so I think one just quick note on ICE is that in order to be able to effectively run a high velocity testing program, you need to be able to source ideas from across the company.

因此，我认为关于 ICE 的一个简单说明是，为了能够有效地运行高速测试程序，您需要能够从整个公司获取想法。

And that's why I came up with ICE, that if you're having people submit ideas and you can't tell them why their idea was not chosen, they're just going to get upset and you're going to waste a lot of time.

这就是我想出 ICE 的原因，如果你让人们提交想法，而你无法告诉他们为什么他们的想法没有被选择，他们只会感到沮丧，而你会浪费很多时间。

But if you have a systematic way of being able to compare ideas, it's more likely that people will be able to get it and they'll be able to come up with better ideas.

但如果你有一种能够比较想法的系统方法，那么人们就更有可能理解它，并且能够提出更好的想法。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love the way you think, Sean.

Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢你的思维方式，肖恩。

I have a post on prioritization where I basically just make the same argument that there's all these complicated ways to prioritize.

我有一篇关于优先级的帖子，我基本上只是提出了同样的论点，即有所有这些复杂的优先级方法。

In the end, it's just impact, confidence, and effort and it really works and rarely is more work.

最后，这只是影响、信心和努力，而且确实有效，而且很少需要更多的工作。

On the other hand, I do also have a guest post called DRICE by these two guys called Detailed RICE, which actually I think is a really good point where sometimes it's worth spending like 30 minutes per idea to just really estimate how long will it take to avoid doing things that are just going to not work and very unlikely.

另一方面，我也有一篇名为 DRICE 的客座文章，作者是这两个人，名为《Detailed RICE》，实际上我认为这是一个非常好的观点，有时每个想法值得花 30 分钟来真正估计需要多长时间才能避免做那些行不通且不太可能发生的事情。

So we're basically doing this reach piece and spending the time too.

所以我们基本上是在做这个延伸部分并花费时间。

Right.

正确的。

And I think there's a lot of good value there.

我认为那里有很多很好的价值。

Sean Ellis: Yeah.

肖恩·埃利斯：是的。

And what I thinks going to be really interesting is that over time, I think AI is going to actually change our ability to model out potential outcomes on experiments and start to, whether it's a more informed way of doing ICE or replaces ICE, that ultimately probability of outcomes is something that AI will be pretty good at.

我认为真正有趣的是，随着时间的推移，我认为人工智能将真正改变我们在实验中模拟潜在结果的能力，并开始，无论是一种更明智的 ICE 方式还是取代 ICE，最终结果的概率都是人工智能非常擅长的。

Lenny Rachitsky: Well, amazing segue to the final question.

Lenny Rachitsky：嗯，最后一个问题令人惊奇。

The actually final question is I wanted to ask you about any ways you've been using AI or ways you think AI will impact the work you're doing or other folks are doing?

实际上最后一个问题是我想问您使用人工智能的方式，或者您认为人工智能会影响您正在做的工作或其他人正在做的工作的方式？

And maybe you just answered it, but you tell me.

也许你只是回答了它，但你告诉了我。

Sean Ellis: No, I'll touch on a couple.

肖恩·埃利斯：不，我要谈几个。

One is that probably the funnest way that I'm using it today.

一是这可能是我今天使用它的最有趣的方式。

Obviously I've done it for coming up with experiment ideas, but the funnest way I personally use it is I get a lot of people asking me for advice, and I don't have very much time to answer with thoughtful answers to people.

显然，我这样做是为了提出实验想法，但我个人使用它的最有趣的方式是，很多人向我寻求建议，而我没有太多时间给人们提供深思熟虑的答案。

And so almost every question that I get, I go to ChatGPT say, how would Sean Ellis answer this?

所以几乎我收到的每一个问题，我都会去 ChatGPT 说，Sean Ellis 会如何回答这个问题？

And it gives me an initial draft to make a couple of tweaks and definitely allows me to answer a lot more.

它为我提供了一份初稿，可以进行一些调整，并且肯定可以让我回答更多问题。

So it helps to have a book that's indexed in there and lots of writing.

因此，拥有一本在那里编有索引的书和大量的文字是有帮助的。

Lenny Rachitsky: That is so funny, and that the question, that's as simple as the prompt is how would Sean Ellis answer,-

莱尼·拉奇茨基：这太有趣了，问题就像提示一样简单，肖恩·埃利斯会如何回答，-

Sean Ellis: Yeah, because then a lot of times it'll say, Sean Ellis, author of Hacking Growth dah, dah, dah, believes that, and then it'll obviously pull that part out in the answer.

肖恩·埃利斯：是的，因为很多时候它会说，《黑客增长》的作者肖恩·埃利斯相信这一点，然后它显然会在答案中删除这一部分。

Lenny Rachitsky: Oh my God.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：天啊。

So you're one step away from a Chrome extension or something that just automatically plugs that into your,-

因此，您距离 Chrome 扩展程序或自动将其插入您的应用程序仅一步之遥，-

Sean Ellis: Yeah, exactly.

肖恩·埃利斯：是的，完全正确。

And I can even start to have my personal assistant maybe start to answer some of those questions as me, but I'm a little bit afraid to send something without reviewing it first because,-

我什至可以开始让我的私人助理开始像我一样回答其中一些问题，但我有点害怕在没有先检查的情况下发送一些东西，因为，-

Sean Ellis: Sometimes there's stuff that's pretty different from how I would answer it, but longer term, I actually think, as I said, I think the cross-functional challenge to growth is a thing that holds a lot of companies back from being able to implement this a bit later.

肖恩·埃利斯：有时有些问题与我的回答方式截然不同，但从长远来看，我实际上认为，正如我所说，我认为增长的跨职能挑战是阻碍许多公司稍后实施这一问题的因素。

Mostly product teams don't want to get direction from marketing teams.

大多数情况下，产品团队不想从营销团队那里得到指导。

Marketing teams don't want to get direction from product teams, and maybe a growth layer can help to do these things, but I find that if AI is essentially saying, you're underperforming in this area of your business, you should drive some experiments in this area.

营销团队不想从产品团队那里得到指导，也许增长层可以帮助做这些事情，但我发现，如果人工智能本质上是在说，你在这个业务领域表现不佳，你应该在这个领域进行一些实验。

It's a lot harder to kind of let ego get in the way when it's kind of dispassionate recommendations from a system.

当系统给出冷静的建议时，要让自我妨碍就更难了。

Sean Ellis: And so I actually think, I think the ability to come up with great experiments is going to keep growing with AI and identifying opportunities.

肖恩·埃利斯：所以我实际上认为，我认为随着人工智能和发现机会的发展，进行伟大实验的能力将会不断增强。

And then obviously the analytical AI side of things is going to be really exciting in terms of being, I do find with most companies, once we get a real high velocity of experiments going, the bottleneck ends up happening more on the analysis side.

显然，我确实发现大多数公司的分析人工智能方面将非常令人兴奋，一旦我们进行真正高速的实验，瓶颈最终会更多地发生在分析方面。

And I think AI will help a lot with that as well.

我认为人工智能在这方面也会有很大帮助。

Lenny Rachitsky: Super cool.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：超级酷。

These are awesome examples.

这些都是很棒的例子。

Okay, Sean, is there anything else you wanted to share or leave listeners with before we get to our very exciting lightning round, which we'll go through real fast?

好的，肖恩，在我们进入非常激动人心的闪电回合之前，您还有什么想分享或留给听众的吗？我们将很快完成这一回合？

Because we've gone very long and I want to let you go.

因为我们已经走了很长一段时间，我想让你走。

Sean Ellis: Yeah.

肖恩·埃利斯：是的。

As I've gone through and done a lot of workshops and programs with companies, I keep coming back to this advice that I heard from guy Oleg Yakubenkov, which is it often comes down to asking the right question at the right time in how you figure things out.

当我与公司一起参加并完成了很多研讨会和项目时，我不断地想起我从奥列格·雅库本科夫那里听到的这个建议，这通常可以归结为在正确的时间提出正确的问题，以帮助你解决问题。

And he's a former data scientist from Meta and so where he basically boils data science down to learning how to ask the right questions.

他是 Meta 的前数据科学家，因此他基本上将数据科学归结为学习如何提出正确的问题。

And so I actually have a course with him called Gopractice.io, where that's really the big benefit of the course, is to learn how to ask the right questions and yeah, you learn how to query them and amplitude, but more importantly, being able to ask the right question.

所以我实际上和他一起开设了一门名为 Gopractice.io 的课程，这门课程的最大好处是学习如何提出正确的问题，是的，你学习如何查询它们和振幅，但更重要的是，能够提出正确的问题。

I think it's kind of cool to hear that from a data scientist from Meta, the importance of that.

我认为从 Meta 的一位数据科学家那里听到这一点很酷，这很重要。

Sean Ellis: But every time I'm going through exercises in my workshops, it almost always comes down to people who aren't able to come up with the right or a good answer in a business.

肖恩·埃利斯：但每次我在研讨会上进行练习时，几乎总是会归结为那些无法在企业中提出正确或良好答案的人。

It's because they're not asking the obvious question.

这是因为他们没有问显而易见的问题。

And as soon as they have, like why aren't users downloading the software?

一旦他们有了，为什么用户不下载该软件？

Let's just ask them that question.

我们就问他们这个问题吧。

That would be one example from my workshop.

这就是我的工作室的一个例子。

Who considers the product a must have?

谁认为该产品是必须拥有的？

That part of getting, to figuring out the must have kind of benefit that then allows you to hone in on product market fit.

获取的这一部分，是为了找出必须有的好处，然后让你磨练产品的市场契合度。

And so yeah, right questions, right time I think is a really important way to think about growth and even getting to product market fit.

所以，是的，我认为正确的问题、正确的时间是思考增长甚至产品市场契合度的非常重要的方式。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love this advice because I think it gives us a glimpse into how your brain has developed these really seemingly simple ideas that end up being really powerful.

Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢这个建议，因为我认为它让我们了解你的大脑如何发展出这些看似简单的想法，但最终却变得非常强大。

And it feels like the advice is just think a lot about the question you need to ask because that'll get you just something that a lot of people just kind of under think or don't.

感觉这个建议只是想很多你需要问的问题，因为这会让你得到很多人没有想到或没有想到的东西。

There's things, maybe it's too simple.

有些事情，也许太简单了。

Sean Ellis: Yeah, or they just jump right into the solution side of things where they're not really trying to understand what's going on.

肖恩·埃利斯：是的，或者他们只是直接跳到问题的解决方案方面，而他们并没有真正试图了解正在发生的事情。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Amazing.

惊人的。

Okay, well with that, Sean, we've reached our very exciting lightning round.

好的，肖恩，我们已经进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。

Are you ready?

你准备好了吗？

Lenny Rachitsky: All right.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

Our first question is, what are two or three books you've recommended most to other people?

我们的第一个问题是，您向其他人推荐最多的两三本书是什么？

Sean Ellis: Increasingly, I'm recommending a book called Presenting to Win that's been around forever, but it really helped me with my presenting.

肖恩·埃利斯：我越来越多地推荐一本名为《Presing to Win》的书，这本书一直存在，但它确实对我的演示很有帮助。

And so of course when I'm out traveling, I'm often sharing the stage with other speakers and yeah, I like to recommend that one to them.

当然，当我外出旅行时，我经常与其他演讲者共享舞台，是的，我喜欢向他们推荐那个演讲者。

I've already talked about Muriel's Hooked.

我已经谈过穆里尔的上瘾了。

I recommend that always, and we'll just stick with two.

我总是建议这样做，我们只会坚持两个。

That's good two.

这两个都好啊

Lenny Rachitsky: Within Presenting to Win, is there one tip that sticks with you of here's something that helped me be a better presenter?

Lenny Rachitsky：在《Presing to Win》中，有没有一个建议让您印象深刻，可以帮助我成为一名更好的演示者？

Sean Ellis: Ultimately, confidence in presenting comes down to having very well organized information that you're going to present.

Sean Ellis：最终，演示的信心取决于您要演示的信息是否组织良好。

And when you organize it correctly, you are much more likely to deliver it with confidence.

当你正确地组织它时，你就更有可能充满信心地交付它。

And so he basically says, if I had a presentation to do and I had an hour to present, I'd spend 55 minutes creating the right presentation and then five minutes practicing it.

所以他基本上说，如果我有一个演示文稿要做，并且我有一个小时的时间来演示，我会花 55 分钟创建正确的演示文稿，然后花 5 分钟进行练习。

But yeah, there's a lot more to it, but,-

但是，是的，还有很多事情，但是，-

Lenny Rachitsky: Wow.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：哇。

Amazing.

惊人的。

Okay.

好的。

We'll link to that book in the show notes.

我们将在节目笔记中链接到该书。

Do you have a favorite recent movie or TV show you've really enjoyed?

您最近有最喜欢的电影或电视节目吗？

Sean Ellis: Yeah, so I've been binging the Olympics.

肖恩·埃利斯：是的，所以我一直在沉迷于奥运会。

I love that, just watching people who worked their ass off for years and then maybe have 30 seconds to do the thing that they worked hard for.

我喜欢这样，看着那些拼命工作多年的人，然后也许有 30 秒的时间去做他们努力工作的事情。

So Olympics have been awesome.

所以奥运会非常棒。

And then the movie, I actually just saw Blackberry, I don't know if you've seen that.

然后电影呢，其实我刚刚看了黑莓，我不知道你有没有看过。

Lenny Rachitsky: Oh, the story of the Blackberry?

Lenny Rachitsky：哦，黑莓手机的故事？

Sean Ellis: Yeah.

肖恩·埃利斯：是的。

I mean obviously we all kind of know the story, but it was so really, I mean, it's a classic example of product market fit and then not.

我的意思是，显然我们都知道这个故事，但它确实如此，我的意思是，这是产品市场契合的经典例子，但又不是。

Actually, it's probably even a counter example to the dangers of the how would you feel if we could no longer use this product?

事实上，这甚至可能是一个反例，说明如果我们不能再使用该产品，您会有何感受？

Pretty sure most people would've said on Blackberry, it's the keyboard, and until iPhone came along, the keyboard was super important and then suddenly it wasn't.

很肯定大多数人会说黑莓手机是键盘，在 iPhone 出现之前，键盘非常重要，但突然间它就不再重要了。

But yeah, it's also interesting on egos and other things that everybody's getting friendly in the beginning and then egos take over and things get a lot harder later on.

但是，是的，自负和其他事情也很有趣，每个人一开始都变得友好，然后自负占据了上风，后来事情变得更加困难。

Lenny Rachitsky: That was actually a really good movie.

Lenny Rachitsky：那实际上是一部非常好的电影。

There's also an amazing movie called Tetris.

还有一部很棒的电影，叫做俄罗斯方块。

For some reason, I think of these two together,-

出于某种原因，我把这两个人放在一起——

Lenny Rachitsky: About the story of Tetris, and it's a similar parallels to those two movies.

Lenny Rachitsky：关于俄罗斯方块的故事，它与这两部电影有相似之处。

Sean Ellis: Awesome.

肖恩·埃利斯：太棒了。

I'll have to see that one.

我一定要看看那个。

Lenny Rachitsky: Next question, do you have a favorite product you've recently discovered that you really love?

Lenny Rachitsky：下一个问题是，您最近发现有一款您真正喜欢的最喜欢的产品吗？

Sean Ellis: I forget the name of it, but I think or it's called Pack Gear Hanging Suitcase, and I basically like, I've done almost 100,000 miles in travel this year, and I have another trip scheduled for next week, and I love it because it basically has all my clothes folded in this little insert that goes into my suitcase, and then I just pull it out and hang it up and just makes travel way easier.

Sean Ellis：我忘记了它的名字，但我想或者它叫 Pack Gear 悬挂式手提箱，我基本上喜欢，今年我已经旅行了近 100,000 英里，下周我还安排了另一次旅行，我喜欢它，因为它基本上把我所有的衣服都折叠在这个小插入物中，放入我的手提箱中，然后我只需将它拉出来并挂起来，就可以让旅行变得更轻松。

Lenny Rachitsky: It's called the Pack Gear Suitcase?

Lenny Rachitsky：它叫做 Pack Gear 手提箱？

Sean Ellis: Pack Gear Hanging Suitcase Organizer.

Sean Ellis：Pack Gear 悬挂式手提箱收纳盒。

Lenny Rachitsky: So cool.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太酷了。

Going to check that out.

要去检查一下。

Two more questions.

还有两个问题。

Do you have a favorite life motto that you often come back to that you find useful in work or in life?

您是否有最喜欢的人生格言，并且经常回顾并发现它在工作或生活中有用？

Maybe share with friends and family sometimes.

有时也许会与朋友和家人分享。

Sean Ellis: Focus on reputation and learning over earnings has served me super well that, and I'll give you an example.

肖恩·埃利斯：关注声誉和学习而不是收入对我很有帮助，我会给你举个例子。

I had two companies when I was doing a lot of this early interim stuff yeah, 10 plus years ago, and I had two of them where I talked to the founders afterwards and I could tell they weren't that stoked on my contributions.

是的，十多年前，当我做很多早期的临时工作时，我有两家公司，后来我和创始人交谈过，我可以看出他们并没有对我的贡献那么感兴趣。

And I offered a full refund to both of them with a thought that like I have this reputation that's, like I randomly pulled the number and said, my reputation worth $5 million.

我向他们俩提供了全额退款，我的想法是，就像我有这样的声誉一样，就像我随机拉出一个数字并说，我的声誉价值 500 万美元。

Why would I possibly mortgage that reputation for $20,000?

为什么我可能会以 20,000 美元抵押这个声誉？

And so one of them, I gave the check back to them and he was happy to take it, but he had said, "Oh, you can make it up to me.

其中一个人，我把支票还给了他们，他很高兴地接受了，但他说：“哦，你可以补偿我。

You don't have to give me the check, just make it up to me by continuing to help me for an unlimited amount of time going forward."

你不必给我支票，只需在今后无限期地继续帮助我来补偿我即可。”

Sean Ellis: I was like, "Oh, take the check." And then the other one said, "No, no, I'm actually really happy with what you did.

肖恩·埃利斯：我当时想，“哦，收下支票吧。”然后另一个人说：“不，不，我实际上对你所做的很满意。

We're fine." But the two VCs who had made those introductions were the first two to give me term sheets when I went out to raise money for my company.

我们很好。”但当我出去为我的公司筹集资金时，进行这些介绍的两位风险投资家是最先给我提供投资意向书的两位。

And the pre-money ultimately ended up being valued at more than double what I had put my personal reputation at.

最终预付款的价值是我个人声誉的两倍多。

So I, yeah, I think the, yeah, unfortunately the company didn't do that well itself because of the elusive product market fit challenges.

所以我，是的，我认为，是的，不幸的是，由于难以捉摸的产品市场适应性挑战，该公司本身做得并不好。

But yeah, the learning there of just focus on learning and reputation.

但是，是的，那里的学习只关注学习和声誉。

Reputation opened the door to more and more learning.

声誉为越来越多的学习打开了大门。

And as I got more learning, the reputation grew.

随着我学到的东西越来越多，声誉也越来越高。

And so yeah.

所以是的。

Lenny Rachitsky: There's a really good corollary there with customer support.

Lenny Rachitsky：客户支持确实是一个很好的推论。

If someone just hates your product and wants a refund, just give them a refund and let them move on versus being upset.

如果有人只是讨厌你的产品并想要退款，只需给他们退款，让他们继续前进，而不是感到不安。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love that.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢这个。

Final question.

最后一个问题。

You mentioned to me before we started recording that you were maybe indirectly responsible for TikTok's success.

在我们开始录制之前，你曾向我提到，你可能对 TikTok 的成功负有间接责任。

Maybe share that story.

也许分享这个故事。

Sean Ellis: Yeah, I mean, I don't want to overstate it, but I yeah, my trip around the world that I did three months ago, I think I wrapped it up.

肖恩·埃利斯：是的，我的意思是，我不想夸大它，但是我是的，三个月前我的环球旅行，我想我已经结束了。

I met with the original founding growth team at TikTok.

我会见了 TikTok 最初的创始增长团队。

They're based in Singapore and they had, I can't remember what the previous product was called, but they started with the previous product.

他们总部位于新加坡，我不记得以前的产品叫什么，但他们从以前的产品开始。

And then when TikTok came, they were in place to be the initial growth team for TikTok, and they basically said all the early stuff we did to grow TikTok was based on your writing.

然后当 TikTok 出现时，他们就成为 TikTok 最初的增长团队，他们基本上说我们为发展 TikTok 所做的所有早期工作都是基于你的写作。

So that was before the book came out.

那是在这本书出版之前。

Sean Ellis: So it's a lot of just blogging that I had done, but it was really, really cool to get that feedback that, yeah, I've always said I have some really good wins, a lot of unicorns that I helped, but none of the really, really big guys.

肖恩·埃利斯：所以我写了很多博客，但得到这样的反馈真的非常酷，是的，我总是说我取得了一些非常好的胜利，我帮助了很多独角兽，但没有一个是真正非常大的公司。

And then to hear that, it felt really good to know that I played some kind of role in TikTok.

然后听到这个消息，我很高兴知道我在 TikTok 中扮演了某种角色。

Of course, almost the same week they told me that that was Congress having TikTok ban conversations.

当然，几乎在同一周，他们告诉我，国会正在进行禁止 TikTok 的对话。

So it was good.

所以这很好。

And at the same time, knowing that maybe if they hadn't read my stuff, Congress wouldn't be wasting their time on TikTok bans.

与此同时，我知道如果国会没有读过我的材料，他们就不会在 TikTok 禁令上浪费时间。

Lenny Rachitsky: Oh man.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：天啊。

Bittersweet.

苦乐参半。

I hope they don't pull you into some hearings.

我希望他们不会让你参加一些听证会。

Sean, this was incredible.

肖恩，这太不可思议了。

This was everything I was hoping it'd be.

这就是我所希望的一切。

I feel like we collected so much wisdom here for folks to them figure out product market fit, find product market fit, iterate, grow their products.

我觉得我们在这里收集了很多智慧，帮助人们找出产品市场契合度、找到产品市场契合度、迭代、发展他们的产品。

So happy we did this.

很高兴我们做到了这一点。

Two final questions.

最后两个问题。

Where can folks find stuff that you're up to if they want to learn more and maybe work with you in various ways?

如果人们想了解更多信息并以各种方式与您合作，可以在哪里找到您正在做的事情？

And how can listeners be useful to you?

听众如何对你有用？

Sean Ellis: Awesome.

肖恩·埃利斯：太棒了。

Yeah, so Seanellis.me is the website where I kind of link to all the things that I'm doing.

是的，Seanellis.me 是我可以链接到我正在做的所有事情的网站。

And so that would be one place where, and there's contact forms on there if anyone wants to reach out.

因此，如果有人想联系的话，那将是一个地方，那里有联系表格。

Obviously LinkedIn people can contact me there.

显然 LinkedIn 的人可以在那里联系我。

And then I did mention GoPractice.

然后我确实提到了 GoPractice。

So gopractice.io.

所以 gopractice.io。

Really cool way to learn growth through a simulated environment of being able to try to grow products.

通过能够尝试种植产品的模拟环境来学习成长的非常酷的方法。

So check out GoPractice and maybe go to Seanellis.me.

因此，请查看 GoPractice，也许还可以访问 Seanellis.me。

When this comes out, I'll put a special offer on there for Lenny's listeners so you can save some money.

当它发布时，我会为莱尼的听众提供特别优惠，这样你们就可以省点钱。

Lenny Rachitsky: And there's also a LLM AI kind of,-

Lenny Rachitsky：还有一种 LLM AI，-

Sean Ellis: I wasn't directly involved on that one, but there's yeah, there's some other really cool stuff that Oleg and the team are doing.

Sean Ellis：我没有直接参与其中，但是，是的，Oleg 和团队正在做一些其他非常酷的事情。

Data-driven product management, and the user growth programs are the ones that I helped with.

数据驱动的产品管理和用户增长计划是我帮助的。

Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

And then for folks, if they're wondering, do you do advising?

那么对于人们来说，如果他们想知道，你会提供建议吗？

How do you work with companies in case they're like, hey, I need Sean.

如果公司说，嘿，我需要肖恩，你如何与他们合作。

Sean Ellis: Yeah, I mean, so the sweet spot for me on companies that I go hands-on with are ideally pretty early just after they get to product market fit and now you know how to measure it.

肖恩·埃利斯（Sean Ellis）：是的，我的意思是，所以对我来说，我亲自接触的公司的最佳时机最好是在他们进入产品市场之后很早，现在你知道如何衡量它。

So if you're kind of pre-scale, but you're seeing that 40%, or even if you're a bit earlier than that, we can start talking earlier.

因此，如果您处于预定阶段，但看到了 40%，或者即使您比这早一点，我们也可以早点开始讨论。

But to me, that's my favorite time to get in there, build it right from the beginning.

但对我来说，这是我最喜欢的时间，从一开始就开始构建它。

It's so hard to retroactively do these things.

这些事情要追溯起来是非常困难的。

And I'll go in for three to six months and I'm all in full-time, one of the team trying to really help build traction in the business.

我将在那里工作三到六个月，并且我是全职员工，是努力真正帮助建立业务吸引力的团队之一。

I do one of those every maybe year or maybe every year or two because I purposely burn myself out and then have fun doing more lecturing and workshops and stuff.

我可能每隔一年或者每一两年都会做一次这样的事情，因为我故意让自己筋疲力尽，然后通过做更多的讲座和研讨会之类的事情来获得乐趣。

Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

Well, you might get a flood of requests after this comes out.

好吧，在这个发布之后你可能会收到大量的请求。

Hope you're ready.

希望你准备好了。

Sean, thank you so much for being here.

肖恩，非常感谢你来到这里。

Sean Ellis: Awesome.

肖恩·埃利斯：太棒了。

Thank you, Lenny.

谢谢你，莱尼。

I really appreciate you having me on.

我真的很感谢你邀请我。

Lenny Rachitsky: Bye everyone.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：大家再见。

Thank you so much for listening.

非常感谢您的聆听。

If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.

如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at LennysPodcasts.com.

您可以在 LennysPodcasts.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。