Lessons on product sense, AI, the first mile experience, and the messy middle | Scott Belsky (Adobe)
Scott Belsky: Yeah.
斯科特·贝尔斯基：是的。
I've had this conversation quite a few times over the years with founders and friends who were running a company going sideways or worse and have had this question, "Should I continue or not?" I always have the same answer.
多年来，我曾多次与创始人和朋友进行过这样的对话，他们经营的公司陷入困境或更糟，并且有这样的问题：“我应该继续还是不继续？”我总是有同样的答案。
I basically say, "How much conviction do you have in the solution you're building?" I know in the beginning, before you knew all you know now, you had tons of conviction.
我基本上会说，“你对你正在构建的解决方案有多少信心？”我知道一开始，在你知道现在所知道的一切之前，你有很多信念。
That's what caused you to leave your job.
这就是导致你离职的原因。
Now knowing all you know, do you have more or less conviction in the problem and the solution you're building?
现在知道了您所知道的一切，您对问题和您正在构建的解决方案是否或多或少有信心？
Scott Belsky: And I'll tell you, I get different answers.
Scott Belsky：我告诉你，我得到了不同的答案。
Some people are like, "Oh, Scott, I mean, I have more conviction.
有些人会说，“哦，斯科特，我的意思是，我更有信心了。
All that I've learned, all the validation I've received from customers, we just haven't figured it out yet.
我所学到的一切，我从客户那里收到的所有验证，我们只是还没有弄清楚。
It's driving me crazy.
这让我发疯。
We've tried three times, and it's still like each product fails.
我们已经尝试了三次，但仍然每个产品都失败了。
But I have more conviction than ever before." And for those people, I'm like, "You know what?
但我比以往任何时候都更有信心。”对于那些人，我会说，“你知道吗？
You're just in the messy middle.
你只是处于混乱的中间。
Stick with it.
坚持下去。
This is par for the course." But oftentimes, I'll hear, "Honestly, if I knew then what I know now, I would not have done this.
这是当然的。”但我常常会听到，“老实说，如果我当时知道我现在所知道的，我就不会这样做。
Holy shit."
天啊。”
Scott Belsky: I'm like, "Then, quit.
斯科特·贝尔斯基：我想，“那么，退出吧。
Your life is short.
你的生命很短暂。
You have a great team.
你们有一支很棒的团队。
Pivot.
枢轴。
Do something completely different." If you've lost conviction, you should not be doing what you're doing in the world of entrepreneurship.
做一些完全不同的事情。”如果你失去了信念，你就不应该做你在创业世界中所做的事情。
Lenny: Welcome to Lenny's Podcast where I interview world-class product leaders and growth experts to learn from their hard one experiences building and growing today's most successful products.
莱尼：欢迎来到莱尼的播客，我在这里采访了世界一流的产品领导者和增长专家，从他们构建和发展当今最成功产品的艰辛经验中学习。
Today, my guest is Scott Belsky.
今天，我的客人是斯科特·贝尔斯基。
Scott is an absolute product legend.
斯科特绝对是产品传奇。
He's a former founder, starting a company called Behance that he sold to Adobe where he worked up the ranks to chief product officer, and more recently, to chief strategy officer and executive vice president of design and emerging products.
他是一名前创始人，创办了一家名为 Behance 的公司，后来将其卖给了 Adobe，并在 Adobe 中晋升为首席产品官，最近又晋升为首席战略官兼设计和新兴产品执行副总裁。
He's also an author of the beloved book, The Messy Middle.
他也是深受喜爱的书《凌乱的中间》的作者。
He's also an angel investor in companies like Pinterest, Uber, Airtable, Flexport, Warby Parker, and many more.
他还是 Pinterest、Uber、Airtable、Flexport、Warby Parker 等公司的天使投资人。
Lenny: In our wide-ranging conversation, Scott shares his advice on how to build product sense, why you should only build half the features that you want, what it takes to build a successful consumer product.
莱尼：在我们广泛的谈话中，斯科特分享了他的建议，包括如何构建产品意识、为什么你应该只构建你想要的一半功能、构建成功的消费产品需要什么。
And we spend a lot of time on how AI is likely to change the world of product and the world broadly.
我们花了很多时间研究人工智能如何改变产品世界和更广泛的世界。
Scott is such an insightful and articulate thinker, and I learned a lot from this conversation.
斯科特是一位富有洞察力和善于表达的思想家，我从这次谈话中学到了很多东西。
With that, I bring you Scott Belsky after a short word from our sponsors.
在我们的赞助商简短致辞后，我为您带来了斯科特·贝尔斯基（Scott Belsky）。
Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Braintrust, where the world's most innovative companies go to find talent fast so that they can innovate faster.
莱尼：这一集是由 Braintrust 为您带来的，世界上最具创新力的公司都在其中快速寻找人才，以便更快地创新。
Let's be honest, it's a lot of work to build a company.
说实话，建立一家公司需要做很多工作。
And if you want to stay ahead of the game, you need to be able to hire the right talent quickly and confidently.
如果您想在竞争中保持领先地位，您需要能够快速、自信地聘用合适的人才。
Braintrust is the first decentralized talent network where you can find, hire and manage high quality contractors in engineering, design, and product for a fraction of the cost of agencies.
Braintrust 是第一个去中心化的人才网络，您可以在其中找到、雇用和管理工程、设计和产品领域的高质量承包商，而成本只是代理机构的一小部分。
Lenny: Braintrust charges a flat rate of only 10%, unlike agency fees of up to 70% so you can make your budget go four times further.
Lenny：Braintrust 只收取 10% 的统一费率，与高达 70% 的代理费不同，因此您可以使预算多出四倍。
Plus, they're the only network that takes 0% of what the talent makes, so they're able to attract and retain the world's best tech talent.
此外，他们是唯一一个收取 0% 人才收入的网络，因此他们能够吸引并留住世界上最优秀的技术人才。
Take it from DoorDash, Airbnb, Plaid, and hundreds of other high growth startups that have shaved their hiring process from months to weeks at less than a quarter of the cost by hiring through Braintrust network of 20,000 high quality vetted candidates ready to work.
以 DoorDash、Airbnb、Plaid 和其他数百家高增长初创公司为例，通过 Braintrust 网络招聘 20,000 名经过审查的高素质候选人，这些公司将招聘流程从数月缩短至数周，成本不到四分之一。
Lenny: Whether you're looking to fill in gaps, upskill your staff, or build a team for that dream project that finally got funded, contact Braintrust, and you'll get matched with three candidates in just 48 hours.
Lenny：无论您是想填补空缺、提高员工技能，还是为最终获得资助的梦想项目组建团队，请联系 Braintrust，您将在短短 48 小时内找到三位候选人。
Visit usebraintrust.com/lenny, or find them in my show notes for today's episode.
请访问 usebraintrust.com/lenny，或在我今天这一集的节目笔记中找到它们。
That's usebraintrust.com/lenny for when you need talent yesterday.
当您昨天需要人才时，这就是 usebraintrust.com/lenny。
This episode is brought to you by Eppo.
本集由 Eppo 为您带来。
Eppo is a next generation AB testing platform built by Airbnb alums from modern growth teams.
Eppo 是由来自现代增长团队的 Airbnb 校友打造的下一代 AB 测试平台。
Companies like DraftKings, Zapier, ClickUp, Twitch and Cameo rely on Eppo to power their experiments.
DraftKings、Zapier、ClickUp、Twitch 和 Cameo 等公司依靠 Eppo 来支持他们的实验。
Lenny: Wherever you work, running experiments is increasingly essential.
Lenny：无论你在哪里工作，进行实验都变得越来越重要。
But there are no commercial tools that integrate with a modern growth team stack.
但没有任何商业工具可以与现代增长团队堆栈集成。
This leads to waste of time building internal tools or trying to run your own experiments through a clunky marketing tool.
这会导致浪费时间构建内部工具或尝试通过笨重的营销工具进行自己的实验。
When I was at Airbnb, one of the things that I loved most about working there was our experimentation platform where I was able to slice and dice data by device types, country, user stage.
当我在 Airbnb 工作时，我最喜欢在那里工作的事情之一就是我们的实验平台，我可以在其中按设备类型、国家/地区、用户阶段对数据进行切片和切块。
Eppo does all that and more, delivering results quickly, avoiding annoying prolonged analytics cycles, and helping you easily get to the root cause of any issue you discover.
Eppo 做到了这一切，甚至更多，快速提供结果，避免恼人的长时间分析周期，并帮助您轻松找到所发现问题的根本原因。
Lenny: Eppo lets you go beyond basically through metrics and instead use your north star metrics like activation, retention, subscription and payments.
Lenny：Eppo 可以让您超越基本指标，而是使用北极星指标，例如激活、保留、订阅和付款。
Eppo supports test on the front end, on the back end, email marketing, even machine learning plans.
Eppo 支持前端测试、后端测试、电子邮件营销，甚至机器学习计划。
Check out Eppo at getE-P-P-O.com.
请访问 getE-P-P-O.com 查看 Eppo。
That's geteppo.com, and 10X your experiment velocity.
这就是 geteppo.com，您的实验速度是原来的 10 倍。
Scott, welcome to the podcast.
斯科特，欢迎来到播客。
Scott Belsky: Hey, Lenny.
斯科特·贝尔斯基：嘿，莱尼。
And it's great to be here.
很高兴来到这里。
Lenny: I don't know if you know this, but it's been a big goal of mine to get you on this podcast since the day I launched it.
莱尼：我不知道你是否知道这一点，但自从我推出这个播客的那天起，让你加入这个播客就是我的一个很大的目标。
And so, I'm really excited that you're here.
所以，我很高兴你能来到这里。
I wanted to start with your role at Adobe.
我想从您在 Adobe 的角色开始。
So for the longest time, you're a chief product officer at Adobe.
因此，在很长一段时间里，您都是 Adobe 的首席产品官。
And then recently, I noticed you shifted to this very complicated sounding role.
最近，我注意到你转向了这个听起来非常复杂的角色。
I'm curious what this new role is and then why you made that shift.
我很好奇这个新角色是什么以及你为什么做出这样的转变。
Scott Belsky: Well, in this new role, I'm overseeing strategy and corporate development, all of design across the company and emerging products for the business.
Scott Belsky：在这个新职位上，我负责监督战略和公司发展、整个公司的所有设计以及业务的新兴产品。
If you look back at the last five years or so, it really has been about getting our core products to the cloud, making them collaborative, making some critical and interesting opportunistic acquisitions over the years, ensuring that we have connectivity between the products that we launched, new web apps that meet new types of creatives.
如果你回顾一下过去五年左右的时间，你会发现，这实际上是为了将我们的核心产品转移到云端，使它们具有协作性，多年来进行一些关键且有趣的机会主义收购，确保我们推出的产品、满足新型创意的新网络应用程序之间具有连接性。
Scott Belsky: And that was a incredible five-year-old chapter.
斯科特·贝尔斯基：这是令人难以置信的五年历史章节。
Now with the advent of AI and new and emerging fast-growing businesses we have like the 3D and immersive space, the stock business and how that whole space is being changed by new technology, the idea of bringing that into an organization and being able to focus on that full-time was really exciting to me.
现在，随着人工智能和新兴快速增长业务的出现，我们拥有 3D 和沉浸式空间、股票业务以及新技术如何改变整个空间，将其引入组织并能够全职专注于该业务的想法对我来说真的很令人兴奋。
Lenny: So what is it that you're doing day-to-day now, just even get it even more concrete?
莱尼：那么你现在每天都在做什么，甚至更具体一些？
I'm curious what your days are looking like.
我很好奇你的日子过得怎么样。
Scott Belsky: Well, I think that it's the strategy of a company always needs to be iterated.
Scott Belsky：嗯，我认为公司的战略总是需要迭代。
And so being tasked with developing the strategy across the entire company, there's no shortage of opportunities and people to meet and things to think about there.
因此，在负责制定整个公司战略的任务中，不乏机会、要见的人和需要思考的事情。
Corporate development, certainly like new M&A stuff and integration, all that sort of stuff falls under me as well.
公司发展，当然像新的并购和整合，所有这些事情也属于我的职责范围。
And I have a lot of feelings about that having been an entrepreneur that went through integration myself.
作为一名经历过整合的企业家，我有很多感触。
So it's kind of fun to be on the other side and try to improve it from that vantage point.
因此，站在另一边并尝试从有利的角度改进它是很有趣的。
Scott Belsky: On the design side, I spend a ton of time reviewing the design across every product and really trying to raise the bar for the experiences we're shipping.
Scott Belsky：在设计方面，我花了很多时间审查每个产品的设计，并真正努力提高我们正在提供的体验的标准。
And that's a hard thing to do in a company that has a lot of legacy products and a lot of baggage that comes with them.
对于一家拥有大量遗留产品和随之而来的大量包袱的公司来说，这是一件很难的事情。
And on the emerging products side, it's really about the new products we're bringing into the market and how to make them win.
在新兴产品方面，真正重要的是我们向市场推出的新产品以及如何让它们获胜。
Lenny: Something that comes up on this podcast a number of times is how CPOs rarely last at a company.
Lenny：这个播客中多次提到的一个问题是，CPO 很少能在公司里坚持下去。
They stay.
他们留下来。
Like Casey mentioned this and a few other people, they stay around for a couple years, and the best they can do is just take a few swings at how things work, improve a few things and then, the CEO's like, "No, this isn't great," and then find someone else.
就像凯西和其他一些人提到的那样，他们在公司呆了几年，他们能做的最好的事情就是对事情的运作方式进行一些调整，改进一些东西，然后，首席执行官会说，“不，这不太好”，然后再找其他人。
What do you think has contributed to you surviving and lasting and thriving and taking on more and more responsibility at Adobe?
您认为是什么让您得以生存、持久、蓬勃发展并在 Adobe 承担越来越多的责任？
Scott Belsky: Well, in the chief product officer role, I oversaw design, product, and engineering.
Scott Belsky：作为首席产品官，我负责监督设计、产品和工程。
And I think part of the reason I was even interested in coming into the company and taking this role is that I felt like these boundaries between these functions are at best artificial, at worst really constraining.
我认为我对进入公司并担任这个角色感兴趣的部分原因是我觉得这些职能之间的界限充其量是人为的，最坏的情况是真正的限制。
And I always have felt like a lot of products win not because of the technology but the user's experience of the technology.
我一直觉得很多产品的获胜不是因为技术，而是因为用户对技术的体验。
Scott Belsky: And so, if you have an aligned team that gets that and makes decisions accordingly, I think you can ship better experiences.
Scott Belsky：所以，如果你有一个团结的团队能够理解这一点并做出相应的决策，我认为你可以提供更好的体验。
So a lot of the work I had to do was breaking some of these boundaries down over the years.
因此，多年来我要做的很多工作就是打破这些界限。
And I think that a lot of chief product officer roles traditionally don't oversee engineering and sometimes don't even oversee design.
我认为很多首席产品官的角色传统上不监督工程，有时甚至不监督设计。
And for me, that wouldn't be interesting.
对我来说，这并不有趣。
Lenny: Zooming into product, if there's a Mount Rushmore of insightful product thinkers, I feel like you'd be on it.
莱尼：聚焦于产品，如果拉什莫尔山上有富有洞察力的产品思想家，我觉得你也会在上面。
And part of the reason is that you have this incredible product sense, whatever that means.
部分原因是你拥有令人难以置信的产品意识，无论这意味着什么。
It's clear that you have strong product sense.
看得出来你有很强的产品意识。
And PMs often talk about the importance of product sense and how to build product sense.
而PM们也经常谈论产品意识的重要性以及如何建立产品意识。
And I'm curious, how do you feel like you built your product sense.
我很好奇，你觉得你的产品意识是如何建立的。
And what advice would you give to younger PMs looking to build product sense?
对于希望建立产品意识的年轻产品经理，您有什么建议？
Scott Belsky: First of all, I think the biggest mistakes that teams make is they become very passionate about a solution to a problem they're trying to solve as opposed to do everything they can to develop empathy for the customer that's suffering the problem.
Scott Belsky：首先，我认为团队犯的最大错误是他们对他们试图解决的问题的解决方案变得非常热衷，而不是尽一切努力对遇到问题的客户产生同理心。
And oftentimes, the empathy gives you the solution, whereas the passion you have for whatever you think the solution is might be 30 degrees off with the solution actually is.
通常情况下，同理心会给你解决方案，而你对任何你认为的解决方案的热情可能与实际的解决方案相差 30 度。
Scott Belsky: And so, this development of empathy is a key part of it.
斯科特·贝尔斯基：因此，同理心的发展是其中的关键部分。
And of course, as I think about the discipline of crafting product experiences, to me, it's all about psychology.
当然，当我思考打造产品体验的学科时，对我来说，这一切都与心理学有关。
It's about understanding the natural human tendencies that people have in their most primal moments.
这是关于理解人们在最原始时刻所具有的自然倾向。
I talk a lot about the first mile experiences that we have across any product we use, whether we're a consumer or an enterprise user.
我经常谈论我们使用的任何产品的第一英里体验，无论我们是消费者还是企业用户。
In the first 30 seconds of using a new product, you are lazy, vain, and selfish.
在使用新产品的前30秒，你是懒惰的、虚荣的、自私的。
Scott Belsky: You want to get it done super quickly.
Scott Belsky：你想要超快地完成它。
You want to look good to your colleagues or to your friends.
您希望在同事或朋友面前看起来不错。
You want to feel successful very quickly by engaging in this product.
您希望通过参与该产品很快获得成功。
You don't want to have to watch a tour or read anything, really endure any learning curve whatsoever.
您不想观看游览或阅读任何内容，真正忍受任何学习曲线。
Scott Belsky: Of course, if you can get people through the first 30 seconds, you have so much opportunity to build a more lasting relationship with that customer and have them understand your mission and the full potential of your product.
Scott Belsky：当然，如果你能让人们度过前 30 秒，你就有很多机会与该客户建立更持久的关系，并让他们了解你的使命和产品的全部潜力。
But we need to ground ourselves with the fact that that's really hard to do.
但我们需要认识到这确实很难做到。
It's fascinating to me that most teams spend the final mile of their time building the product, considering the first mile of the customer's experience using the product.
让我着迷的是，大多数团队都会花最后一英里的时间来构建产品，同时考虑到客户使用产品的第一英里体验。
If you can just get more customers through that top of funnel, you are a world-class product team.
如果您能够通过漏斗顶部吸引更多客户，那么您就是一个世界一流的产品团队。
Let's anchor ourselves on just doing that, and let's use psychology to do so.
让我们专注于这样做，并利用心理学来做到这一点。
Lenny: And just to make sure people understand, when you talk about the first mile, essentially that's the onboarding flow maybe to the activation moment.
莱尼：为了确保人们理解，当你谈论第一英里时，本质上就是可能到激活时刻的入职流程。
Scott Belsky: I think that's right.
斯科特·贝尔斯基：我认为这是对的。
It's the onboarding flow.
这是入职流程。
It's the initial experience.
这是最初的体验。
It's the defaults that you see.
这是您看到的默认值。
It's the orientation of where you are.
这是你所在位置的方向。
So many products you actually don't exactly know how you got to where you are and how to get home and where to get help.
如此多的产品实际上让您不知道如何到达当前位置、如何回家以及在哪里获得帮助。
So I would say it's the onboarding.
所以我会说这是入职。
It's the orientation, and it's the defaults.
这是方向，也是默认值。
Lenny: You've been a constant and early advocate of investing in that part of the funnel.
莱尼：您一直是投资漏斗这一部分的长期倡导者。
And it's interesting how often that comes up on this podcast when people think about how do we improve retention, how do we improve growth.
有趣的是，当人们思考如何提高保留率、如何提高增长时，这个播客中经常会出现这个问题。
Often, the biggest wins from stories that we get on this podcast are in that part of the flow.
通常，我们在这个播客上获得的故事的最大收获就在于流程的这一部分。
And so, another data point to spend more time there.
因此，另一个数据点是在那里花费更多时间。
And I wanted to ask you, are you finding even at the stage of Adobe, there's still lots of opportunity in the first mile or do you find that it becomes less and less and less, and then it's less important?
我想问你，你是否发现即使在Adobe这个阶段，第一英里仍然有很多机会，或者你是否发现它变得越来越少，然后变得不那么重要？
Scott Belsky: The answer is lots of opportunity.
Scott Belsky：答案是很多机会。
The reason is because the customers change.
原因是因为客户发生了变化。
Every new cohort of new customers is different.
每一批新客户都是不同的。
The new customers you have in the early stages of your product are typically more willing and forgiving customers.
在产品的早期阶段拥有的新客户通常是更愿意、更宽容的客户。
And you might nail the onboarding process for them, and then suddenly realize that, "Wait, it's not being as effective anymore."
您可能会为他们确定入职流程，然后突然意识到，“等等，它不再那么有效了。”
Scott Belsky: And the reason is because now you're engaging more of those pragmatist customers, those later stage customers who are initially more skeptical, less forgiving, less willing to deal with your friction.
斯科特·贝尔斯基（Scott Belsky）：原因是因为现在你吸引了更多实用主义客户，这些后期客户最初更加持怀疑态度，不太宽容，不太愿意处理你的摩擦。
And so, you have to reimagine the onboarding process all over again.
因此，您必须重新构思入职流程。
I mean when you look at a product like Photoshop, for example, it used to cost hundreds and hundreds of dollars.
我的意思是，例如，当你查看像 Photoshop 这样的产品时，它过去要花费数百美元。
Now, ow you can get Photoshop for as little as 10 bucks a month.
现在，您每月只需花费 10 美元即可获得 Photoshop。
And so of course, the funnel's a lot larger.
当然，漏斗要大得多。
A Lot more people come in with creative desires without the skills or the tolerance to develop them.
更多的人怀着创造的愿望来到这里，却缺乏发展这些愿望的技能或宽容。
And so, that dictates an entire change in the onboarding experience for a product like Photoshop.
因此，这要求 Photoshop 这样的产品的入门体验发生彻底的变化。
Lenny: It makes me think of something Shishir, the CEO of Coda, shared about how he's like, "I don't really buy this idea of product market fit because you have product market fit with your existing users that love it and know about it, and you always don't have product market fit with the people you want to be used the product." And it's related to what you're talking about.
Lenny：这让我想起了 Coda 首席执行官 Shishir 分享的一些话，“我并不真正相信产品市场契合度的想法，因为你的产品市场契合于你现有的喜欢它并了解它的用户，而你的产品市场永远不契合你想要使用该产品的人。”而且和你说的事情有关系。
The newest people joining have no idea what you're doing.
新加入的人不知道你在做什么。
Scott Belsky: I agree with that, and I actually think that the role of AI going forward will be to have applications increasingly meet us where we are.
Scott Belsky：我同意这一点，而且我实际上认为人工智能未来的作用将是让应用程序越来越多地满足我们的需求。
To this day, we've always had to generalize onboarding experiences for the most part for everyone.
直到今天，我们仍然必须为每个人概括大部分的入职体验。
And I'm really excited about the day when kind of products meet us where we are based on what type of user we are.
我真的很兴奋有一天，我们会根据我们的用户类型推出不同的产品。
Lenny: I have a billion AI-related questions for you.
Lenny：我有十亿个与人工智能相关的问题要问你。
So I'm going to hold off just-
所以我要推迟一下——
Lenny: ...
莱尼：……
a bit.
一点。
And I wanted to double click on the empathy piece.
我想双击同理心部分。
So you talk about how to become better at product sense.
所以你谈到如何变得更好的产品感。
Empathy and understanding the user's problems is really important.
同理心和理解用户的问题非常重要。
Do you have any advice for someone that wants to build that?
您对想要构建它的人有什么建议吗？
What can they actually do to become more empathetic and build that part of their skillset?
他们实际上可以做些什么来变得更有同理心并建立他们的这部分技能？
Scott Belsky: Well, the most humbling moments for me as a product leader have always been shoulder to shoulder to customers.
Scott Belsky：嗯，作为产品领导者，对我来说最谦卑的时刻始终是与客户并肩作战。
Watching them actually go about their day, not just use my product but go about their day because what you end up getting is context for a lot of data that you're missing.
观察他们实际的一天，不仅仅是使用我的产品，而是过他们的一天，因为你最终得到的是你丢失的大量数据的上下文。
Scott Belsky: When customers are using your product, they're using it amidst everything else around them.
Scott Belsky：当客户使用你的产品时，他们会在周围的其他一切中使用它。
In the enterprise, it's all their other meetings and other products and pings that they're getting throughout the day.
在企业中，这是他们全天收到的所有其他会议、其他产品和 ping。
And as a consumer, it's between dealing with their kids or their loved ones or watching Netflix or whatever the case might be.
作为消费者，这要在与孩子或亲人打交道或观看 Netflix 或其他任何情况之间进行。
Scott Belsky: And in order to really understand where the customer is and where their mentality is, you have to understand the context in which they're using your product.
Scott Belsky：为了真正了解客户在哪里以及他们的心态在哪里，您必须了解他们使用您的产品的环境。
So part of developing empathy is being shoulder to shoulder and just encountering that reality alongside your customer.
因此，培养同理心的一部分就是并肩作战，与客户一起面对现实。
And that time, it just gives you better intuition.
那时，它只会给你更好的直觉。
It helps you understand more.
它可以帮助您了解更多。
And with empathy, we can then better create quote-unquote, "for ourselves" because by developing empathy for others, we're feeling what they're feeling.
有了同理心，我们就可以更好地“为自己”创造引语，因为通过对他人产生同理心，我们就能感受到他们的感受。
We can then be the customer.
然后我们就可以成为客户。
And, of course, we all know some of the best product customers, some of the best products in the world are made when we are the makers are the customer.
当然，我们都知道一些最好的产品客户，世界上一些最好的产品是当我们作为制造商是客户时制造出来的。
Lenny: It makes me think of Marc Andreessen as this awesome code that I always come back to that everyone's time is already allocated.
Lenny：这让我想到 Marc Andreessen 是一个非常棒的代码，我总是会回想起每个人的时间都已经分配好了。
They don't have time for your product.
他们没有时间关注你的产品。
They're not-
他们不是——
Scott Belsky: And by the way, as a related note, since I know Lenny, you talk to a lot of guests around product-led growth.
斯科特·贝尔斯基：顺便说一句，作为一个相关说明，因为我认识莱尼，你与很多嘉宾谈论了产品主导的增长。
And sorry, if I'm skipping around here.
抱歉，如果我在这里跳过。
But-
但是——
Scott Belsky: ...
斯科特·贝尔斯基：...
I think it's also relevant because everyone's trying to get their products to grow.
我认为这也很重要，因为每个人都在努力让他们的产品增长。
And the other thing that perplexes me is that product leaders expect people to talk about a product being great.
另一件让我困惑的事情是产品领导者希望人们谈论产品的伟大。
And people don't talk about a product doing exactly what they expected it to do.
人们不会谈论产品完全按照他们的预期行事。
They talk about a product doing what they didn't expect.
他们谈论一款产品做了他们意想不到的事情。
Scott Belsky: And you look at a product like Tesla.
斯科特·贝尔斯基：你会看到像特斯拉这样的产品。
People are not going and talking about how they had a great drive today, but they're talking about the Easter egg they discovered on the dashboard or the cool new feature that they discovered that is associated with Christmas or whatever.
人们不会去谈论他们今天的驾驶体验如何，而是谈论他们在仪表板上发现的复活节彩蛋，或者他们发现的与圣诞节或其他相关的很酷的新功能。
Scott Belsky: And so, it always is interesting to me.
Scott Belsky：所以，这对我来说总是很有趣。
In consumer and even enterprise products maybe especially so, why aren't we optimizing for those things that people wouldn't expect the product to do as a way to get that surprise and delight to talk about it, to develop a relationship with our products?
在消费者甚至企业产品中尤其如此，为什么我们不优化那些人们不希望产品做的事情，以此获得惊喜和高兴地谈论它，与我们的产品建立关系？
I think that's another piece of the puzzle.
我认为这是另一个难题。
Lenny: That is really interesting, and reminds me of something I just talked about with Gustav from Spotify whose episode might come out before this or after this about how every great consumer product pulls some kind of magic trick and feels like magic to you, like Spotify as an example.
Lenny：这真的很有趣，让我想起了我刚刚与 Spotify 的 Gustav 谈论过的事情，其中的一集可能会在这之前或之后发布，讲述每一个伟大的消费产品如何发挥某种魔术，让你感觉像魔术一样，就像 Spotify 一样。
And-
还有——
Scott Belsky: I like that, magic, sort of a little mystery, a little intrigue, a little surprise.
斯科特·贝尔斯基：我喜欢这样，魔法，有点神秘，有点阴谋，有点惊喜。
It's a classic trick that Hollywood uses all the time.
这是好莱坞一直使用的经典技巧。
Why don't we use it in our own products?
我们为什么不在自己的产品中使用它呢？
Lenny: So let me pull on that thread a little bit about just consumer products in general.
莱尼：所以让我稍微谈谈一般消费品的话题。
You spent a lot of your career, maybe most of your career in consumer, imagine Adobe.
您在消费者职业生涯中度过了很多时间，也许大部分职业生涯，想象一下 Adobe。
There's a lot of B2B elements now as well.
现在也有很多 B2B 元素。
And you also angel invest and you help a lot of consumer companies.
你们还进行天使投资，帮助很多消费品公司。
And tell me if you agree, but it feels like new consumer products basically never work.
如果你同意的话请告诉我，但感觉新的消费产品基本上永远不会起作用。
Lenny: And if they do work, there's a period where they work, be real, is going through this now clubhouse.
莱尼：如果他们工作的话，他们会在一段时间内工作，说实话，就是经历现在的俱乐部会所。
Paparazzi went through this.
狗仔队经历了这一切。
And then, they fail or fade away.
然后，他们失败或消失。
Maybe, they come back and then fade away again.
也许，他们回来了，然后又消失了。
I guess, first of all, do you generally agree that consumer is just so rarely successful in consumer products?
我想，首先，您是否普遍认为消费者在消费品领域很少能取得成功？
Scott Belsky: Uber was a consumer product, but it built a network effect that was never there before.
Scott Belsky：Uber 是一种消费产品，但它建立了前所未有的网络效应。
It leveraged excess capacity that was always there, but never tapped.
它利用了一直存在但从未得到利用的过剩产能。
It did something under the hood that gave it lasting power.
它在幕后做了一些事情，赋予了它持久的力量。
I think of Pinterest, and I was Ben's first seed angel and product advisor.
我想到了 Pinterest，我是 Ben 的第一个种子天使和产品顾问。
Scott Belsky: And with that product, he had this unique insight into the consumer psychology where it was not as much about getting likes and portraying yourself through pictures of you and seeing pictures of friends and all of this sort of anxiety that is induced by that, but rather helping people collect and represent themselves with their interests.
斯科特·贝尔斯基（Scott Belsky）：通过该产品，他对消费者心理有了独特的洞察力，在这种心理中，并不是通过自己的照片和朋友的照片来获得点赞和描绘自己以及由此引发的所有此类焦虑，而是帮助人们收集并代表自己的兴趣。
Scott Belsky: And so again, that was kind of a new insight that I also think developed its own network effect that enabled it to be lasting.
斯科特·贝尔斯基：同样，这是一种新的见解，我也认为它发展了自己的网络效应，使其能够持久。
And there was a fascinating business component which was it drove a crapload of traffic to every source of every pin, which then got those sites to then put pin buttons themselves because they wanted more traffic.
还有一个令人着迷的业务组件，那就是它为每个 pin 的每个来源带来了大量的流量，然后让这些网站自己放置 pin 按钮，因为他们想要更多的流量。
Scott Belsky: So there were underlying things under the hood again that it's sort of tilting the market in his favor.
斯科特·贝尔斯基：所以，这背后又隐藏着一些潜在的因素，这在某种程度上让市场向有利于他的方向倾斜。
I think that a lot of these other more recent consumer products are just kind of clever momentary interfaces.
我认为许多其他最近的消费产品只是一种聪明的瞬时界面。
And they are in effect at the expense of venture capitalists, R&D for the platforms that already have the network effects and already have the distribution channels and the ad sales and everything else.
它们实际上是以牺牲风险资本家、已经具有网络效应、已经拥有分销渠道、广告销售和其他一切的平台的研发为代价的。
Scott Belsky: And so, I think that's why we're seeing B-reels capabilities now also in TikTok, and you're seeing a lot of flashes in the pan, especially in these creative consumer apps, which I've been paying very close attention to.
Scott Belsky：所以，我认为这就是为什么我们现在也在 TikTok 中看到 B-reels 功能，并且你会看到很多闪光点，特别是在这些我一直非常密切关注的创意消费应用程序中。
They're fun and novel.
它们既有趣又新颖。
But if they really work, those features are then brought into the native Apple camera, for instance.
但如果它们确实有效，那么这些功能就会被引入到苹果原生相机中。
Lenny: So let's double click on that.
莱尼：所以让我们双击它。
I know this is a big question, but just what have you found is important for a new consumer product to work?
我知道这是一个大问题，但您发现什么对于新消费产品的发挥作用至关重要？
You mentioned surprise would be great, network effects, maybe a new insight.
你提到惊喜会很棒，网络效应，也许是一个新的见解。
What else do you find is important for a durable new consumer product to work?
您认为对于耐用的新型消费产品来说，还有哪些重要因素？
Scott Belsky: Yeah.
斯科特·贝尔斯基：是的。
And it's interesting because I think my answer 10 years ago would probably be different than my answer today.
这很有趣，因为我认为十年前的答案可能与今天的答案不同。
I think that there is a nimbleness.
我认为有一种灵活性。
And maybe, it started in China with these super apps that were able to do everything.
也许，它始于中国，这些超级应用程序能够做所有事情。
And that changed the idea away from the atomized experiences of a decade plus ago where you wanted a specialized product that did exactly what you wanted in a very reduced way.
这改变了这个想法，摆脱了十多年前的原子化体验，当时你想要一种专门的产品，以一种非常简单的方式完全满足你的需求。
Scott Belsky: I think Snapchat emerged under that world.
Scott Belsky：我认为 Snapchat 是在那个世界下出现的。
I think Instagram became valuable to Facebook because of that phenomenon.
我认为 Instagram 对 Facebook 来说变得有价值就是因为这种现象。
Fast forward to today where all of us are far more technologically literate and we are able to manage a lot more cognitive load in our everyday technology lifestyles.
快进到今天，我们所有人的技术素养都大大提高，我们能够在日常技术生活方式中管理更多的认知负荷。
And so suddenly, we don't mind five tabs.
突然之间，我们不介意五个标签。
We don't mind features hidden and tucked away in menus because we're sort of used to that now.
我们不介意隐藏在菜单中的功能，因为我们现在已经习惯了。
Scott Belsky: And so, maybe that's one of the reasons why these established platforms get away with basically copying any novel new capability as opposed to those becoming apps in and of themselves.
Scott Belsky：所以，也许这就是为什么这些已建立的平台基本上可以复制任何新颖的新功能，而不是那些本身成为应用程序的原因之一。
Lenny: So let me shift a little bit and talk about a tweet that you tweeted about one thing you've learned.
莱尼：所以让我稍微转移一下，谈谈你在推特上发布的关于你学到的一件事的推文。
You have this amazing thread of just things you have learned over the many years you've been thinking about products and consumer products.
多年来你一直在思考产品和消费品，你所学到的东西就是这条令人惊奇的线索。
And one of them was about how you've learned that, you should do half the things that you want to do, half the features you plan to do, do half the features, offer half the options you want to offer, focus on half the market versus the market you're trying to go after.
其中之一是关于你如何了解到这一点，你应该做一半你想做的事情，一半你计划做的功能，做一半的功能，提供一半你想要提供的选择，专注于一半的市场而不是你想要追求的市场。
Lenny: Can you just talk about maybe how you came upon that learning and then also just how do you actually do that?
莱尼：你能谈谈你是如何想到这一点的，以及你实际上是如何做到这一点的吗？
It's like, "Sure, great.
就像是，“当然，太好了。
We're going to do half." But then, which half?
我们要做一半。”但是，哪一半呢？
And oh, but someone wants this feature so badly, shoot.
哦，但是有人非常想要这个功能，开枪吧。
We can't do them all." So do you have any advice in just how to actually execute that sort of approach?
我们无法全部完成。” 那么对于如何实际执行这种方法，您有什么建议吗？
Scott Belsky: I mean one of the first comments I'll just make is whenever I'm asked by teams, what features need to be part of their MVP, how do they decide which features they need to ship first and whatever, I always tell them to optimize for the problems they want to have.
Scott Belsky：我的意思是，我首先要发表的评论之一是，每当团队问我什么功能需要成为他们的 MVP 的一部分，他们如何决定需要首先发布哪些功能等等，我总是告诉他们针对他们想要的问题进行优化。
You want the problem of customers getting through your funnel, feeling successful, using your product and getting value and then saying to you, "Oh, but I need it on this platform, or I need this capability, or I want to be able to share this." I mean you want those problems.
您希望客户通过您的渠道，感到成功，使用您的产品并获得价值，然后对您说：“哦，但我需要在这个平台上使用它，或者我需要这种功能，或者我希望能够分享这个。”我的意思是你想要这些问题。
So don't do those features now.
所以现在不要做这些功能。
Scott Belsky: Only do the things that prevent people from getting to the point where they care enough to ask you for anything.
斯科特·贝尔斯基：只做那些阻止人们达到足够关心向你提出任何要求的程度的事情。
Make sure they can get through the signup flow.
确保他们可以完成注册流程。
Make sure they can connect their account.
确保他们可以连接他们的帐户。
Make sure they can use Google login if they need to, or whatever the case may be.
确保他们可以在需要时使用 Google 登录，或者无论情况如何。
Scott Belsky: So I always remind the teams, optimize for the problems you want to have, and make sure that you eliminate all the brick walls, the major catastrophe-type things that can happen.
Scott Belsky：所以我总是提醒团队，针对你想要遇到的问题进行优化，并确保消除所有障碍，即可能发生的重大灾难类型的事情。
But in terms of the half, the half-half, I learned this the hard way.
但就一半而言，一半一半，我是通过惨痛的教训才学到这一点的。
Scott Belsky: When Behance was launching back in 2008, I was always trying to hedge us with product features.
Scott Belsky：2008 年 Behance 推出时，我一直试图用产品功能来对冲我们。
I wasn't sure if people would be coming to join groups or if people would be coming for the tip exchange where creatives share best practices with one another, or if people were coming to build their portfolios or just share work in progress.
我不确定人们是否会来参加团体，或者人们是否会来参加创意人员相互分享最佳实践的技巧交流，或者人们是否会来建立他们的作品集或只是分享正在进行的工作。
Scott Belsky: Maybe, it's too much to build a whole project of your work.
Scott Belsky：也许，构建一个完整的你的工作项目有点太多了。
Maybe, we can allow people just to share snapshots of their work.
也许，我们可以允许人们只分享他们工作的快照。
And so, we actually launched with pretty much all of these features.
因此，我们实际上推出了几乎所有这些功能。
And then, it was the most complicated form of Behance, was ironically at the beginning.
然后，它是 Behance 最复杂的形式，具有讽刺意味的是，从一开始就是如此。
Scott Belsky: And then, what we realized is that some things were taking off, and some things weren't.
斯科特·贝尔斯基：然后，我们意识到有些事情正在起飞，而有些则没有。
So I remember when we decided to kill the Tip Exchange.
所以我记得当我们决定取消小费交换时。
And suddenly, the publishing of projects in the portfolio went up.
突然间，投资组合中项目的发布量增加了。
And we're like, "Oh my gosh.
我们就像，“天哪。
Projects being published is the core metric and it's what drives the traffic back to Behance.
已发布的项目是核心指标，也是将流量带回 Behance 的原因。
Let's do this again.
让我们再做一次。
I don't know, let's kill groups."
我不知道，我们就集体杀戮吧。”
Scott Belsky: And so, we killed groups.
斯科特·贝尔斯基：所以，我们屠杀了群体。
And lo and behold, more people published more projects.
你瞧，越来越多的人发表了更多的项目。
And it was like, "Wow." So actually if you make the whole product about one thing, everyone does that.
就像，“哇。”所以实际上，如果你把整个产品做成一件事，那么每个人都会这样做。
That core crank operates at 10X the velocity and if that's the most important metric for the business, that's gold.
该核心曲柄以 10 倍的速度运行，如果这是业务最重要的指标，那就是黄金。
And so, we basically went on a killing spree.
所以，我们基本上进行了一场杀戮狂欢。
And we just started killing things.
我们才刚刚开始杀戮。
And over the years, we have actually tried to have this sort of, and I pushed this on many products, things I worked with now whenever you're adding things, consider what you can replace.
多年来，我们实际上已经尝试过这种方式，我在许多产品上推广了这种方式，现在每当您添加东西时，我都会使用这些东西，考虑您可以替换什么。
Consider what you can also remove.
考虑一下您还可以删除哪些内容。
Scott Belsky: When we updated the portfolio on Behance, I remember we used to have this ability to change the colors of your portfolio in Behance.
Scott Belsky：当我们在 Behance 上更新作品集时，我记得我们曾经具有在 Behance 中更改作品集颜色的功能。
When people clicked on your profile and saw all your projects, you could control that and add your brand element to it.
当人们点击您的个人资料并查看您的所有项目时，您可以控制它并向其中添加您的品牌元素。
Scott Belsky: And so, we know.
斯科特·贝尔斯基：所以，我们知道。
We were like, "You know what?
我们说：“你知道吗？
What would happen if we just took this away?
如果我们把这个拿走会发生什么？
Would people again focus more on projects?" And so, we took it away.
人们会再次更加关注项目吗？”所以，我们把它拿走了。
For 24 hours, we had people reaching out to us being like, "Damn you.
24 小时内，不断有人向我们伸出援手，说：“该死的。
How could you take away these controls for color of portfolio?" After that 24 hours, we basically never heard about it again.
你怎么能取消这些对作品集颜色的控制呢？”24 小时后，我们基本上再也没有听说过这件事。
All the portfolios look cleaner and more consistent.
所有的作品集看起来更干净、更一致。
And people did the core metric more.
人们更多地关注核心指标。
And so, I just took from that, try to kill things and everything you think you need to do, you probably only need to do half of it.
所以，我从中吸取了教训，尝试消灭一些东西，以及你认为你需要做的一切，你可能只需要做一半。
Lenny: I wonder if in reality most of the time, you only realize this afterwards versus ahead of time.
莱尼：我想知道在现实中，大多数时候你是否只是事后才意识到这一点，而不是提前意识到这一点。
And that's just the way it is.
事情就是这样。
And then, it's just the seal of sunset, things that aren't actually important.
然后，只是夕阳的印记，其实并不重要的事情。
Scott Belsky: I do have to say though, Lenny, some of the best product leaders that I've worked with, I do feel like they have this great reductionist or minimalistic tendency by default.
Scott Belsky：不过，我不得不说，Lenny，我合作过的一些最好的产品领导者，我确实觉得他们默认具有这种巨大的简化主义或极简主义倾向。
They're just very much...
他们只是非常...
They anchor themselves on the one thing they want people to do and do well.
他们专注于希望人们做并做好的一件事。
And they just are pretty ruthless about everything else, being like, "Okay, but only if we have a problem with doing this core thing.
他们对其他一切都非常无情，就像，“好吧，但前提是我们在做这件核心事情时遇到问题。
Okay, put on the back burner." And so, it's something I've tried to get better at over the years.
好吧，暂时搁置。”所以，这是我多年来一直试图做得更好的事情。
Lenny: What's really interesting is this is exactly like Matt Mochary who is actually the number one most popular podcast episode talks about when you let people go.
莱尼：真正有趣的是，这就像马特·莫卡里（Matt Mochary）一样，他实际上是最受欢迎的播客节目中谈到的“当你让人们离开时”。
And he's helped a lot of CEOs let people go that 100% of the time everything just starts moving faster as soon as you have fewer people.
他帮助很多 CEO 放人，100% 的情况是，只要人员减少，一切就会开始更快地发展。
And so, it's the same exact model in people and products.
因此，人和产品的模型是完全相同的。
Scott Belsky: I think that's right.
斯科特·贝尔斯基：我认为这是对的。
And that's why I always feel like tough decisions almost always afterwards feel like a relief.
这就是为什么我总是觉得艰难的决定几乎总是事后感觉如释重负。
And that's true for the product.
对于产品来说也是如此。
That's true for people on a team as well.
对于团队中的人来说也是如此。
Lenny: Let's shift to talking about AI, which I'm really excited about because I know you've been spending a lot of time talking with people about AI, building AI products.
Lenny：让我们转向谈论人工智能，我对此感到非常兴奋，因为我知道你花了很多时间与人们谈论人工智能、构建人工智能产品。
You all launched Firefly, which a lot of people are really excited about.
你们都推出了 Firefly，很多人都对此感到非常兴奋。
You also have this newsletter where you kind of just share your implications on how AI and technology is going to impact the world.
您还有这份时事通讯，您可以在其中分享您对人工智能和技术将如何影响世界的影响。
Lenny: So I have a lot of questions I'm excited to ask you around this.
莱尼：所以我有很多问题，很高兴能就此向您询问。
And I'll just start really broad and maybe this is too big of a question, but just how different do you expect the world to be in, say, five years as a result of AI, both for product builders and then just people in general?
我将从非常广泛的角度开始，也许这是一个太大的问题，但你认为人工智能在五年后的世界会发生多大的变化，无论是对产品构建者还是对一般人来说？
Scott Belsky: Listen, I'm an optimist.
Scott Belsky：听着，我是一个乐观主义者。
And I feel like our human potential has always been held back by the laws of physics essentially.
我觉得我们人类的潜力本质上一直受到物理定律的阻碍。
The mundane, repetitive labor you need to do to get anything done is what holds back our ingenuity.
完成任何事情所需的平凡、重复性劳动阻碍了我们的创造力。
It's the friction.
这就是摩擦力。
It's the work in workflows that wouldn't it be great if we could just have flow and no work?
这是工作流程中的工作，如果我们只有流程而不需要工作，那不是很好吗？
Scott Belsky: And I think that that's what AI kind of does, is it gets us from workflow to flow.
Scott Belsky：我认为这就是人工智能的作用，它让我们从工作流程转向流程。
It gets us into this flow state where any idea in your mind's eye, you can start to develop it.
它让我们进入一种心流状态，你脑海中出现任何想法，你都可以开始发展它。
I was having this discussion with Howie who runs Airtable actually just earlier today where we were talking about the leader at IBM who announced that he's not going to hire 8,000 people that he would've hired because AI is going to be able to do that work.
今天早些时候，我与 Airtable 的运营者 Howie 进行了讨论，我们谈论的是 IBM 的领导者，他宣布他不会雇用他本来会雇用的 8,000 名员工，因为人工智能将能够完成这项工作。
Scott Belsky: And what we were talking about was, and how he made the point, as engineers have become much more productive over the years, that doesn't mean that companies have wanted fewer engineers.
Scott Belsky：我们所讨论的是，以及他如何表达这一点，多年来工程师的工作效率大大提高，但这并不意味着公司需要更少的工程师。
It actually just means that they demand more of their engineers.
这实际上只是意味着他们对工程师的要求更高。
And engineers have more possibility to do more.
工程师有更多的可能性做更多的事情。
Scott Belsky: And so, if human ingenuity goes up, maybe we actually want to hire more people because if you have more ingenuity per human being, maybe you can actually do more as a company.
斯科特·贝尔斯基：所以，如果人类的聪明才智得到提高，也许我们实际上想雇用更多的人，因为如果每个人都有更多的聪明才智，也许作为一家公司，你实际上可以做得更多。
And maybe, companies that used to have three products will have five products or seven products or 30 products.
也许，过去拥有三种产品的公司将拥有五种产品、七种产品或 30 种产品。
And maybe, that's actually the trend that we're forgetting is that humans bring this level of ingenuity to every problem and every opportunity.
也许，这实际上是我们忘记的趋势，即人类为每个问题和每个机会带来了这种水平的独创性。
Whereas computers remember like ChatGPT is basically just giving you what it would look like if, right?
而计算机记得像 ChatGPT 基本上只是给你它会是什么样子，对吗？
It's not truly finding edges that will become the center.
它并不是真正找到将成为中心的边缘。
Scott Belsky: It's actually just mining the center.
Scott Belsky：实际上只是在开采中心。
And it's trying to regurgitate the center, which is also very helpful by the way.
它正试图使中心反流，顺便说一句，这也非常有帮助。
So I'm optimistic.
所以我很乐观。
I think that there will be far more people engaged in delivering experiences.
我认为将会有更多的人参与提供体验。
I'm very long the experience economy because I think that there will be some people liberated to focus more on the non-scalable things that really move the needle for experiences for customers.
我非常看好体验经济，因为我认为会有一些人能够更多地关注不可扩展的事物，这些事物真正能够为客户带来体验。
And then, I also am excited about humans having less grudge work to do.
然后，我也对人类减少怨恨的工作感到兴奋。
Lenny: I'm also excited for that.
莱尼：我也对此感到兴奋。
It reminds me it might have a TikTok account, and I have this team that helps with the TikTok and we haven't shared this, but a few of the TikToks are my voice generated with AI.
它提醒我它可能有一个 TikTok 帐户，我有一个团队帮助处理 TikTok，我们还没有分享这一点，但其中一些 TikTok 是我用人工智能生成的声音。
And they just-
他们只是——
Lenny: ...
莱尼：……
read script.
阅读脚本。
And it's me reading this story.
而我正在读这个故事。
And it sounds sort of like me.
听起来有点像我。
And I showed it to a friend.
我把它拿给朋友看了。
And I was like, "Do you see anything?
我当时想，“你看到什么了吗？
You feel weird about this video?" And he is like, "No, you sound great.
你对这段视频感到奇怪吗？”他说，“不，你听起来很棒。
You sound really a great speaker." I'm like, "Okay.
你听起来真的是一位很棒的演讲者。”我说，“好吧。
Say hi."
打个招呼。”
Scott Belsky: While you were reading, instead of reading a script, you can be plotting the course of the next episode.
斯科特·贝尔斯基：当你阅读时，你可以规划下一集的进程，而不是阅读剧本。
Lenny: Yeah, exactly.
莱尼：是的，完全正确。
So I totally see what you're talking about there.
所以我完全明白你在说什么。
In the product team, which function do you think will be the most disrupted and/or the most, I don't know, optimized through AI?
在产品团队中，您认为哪个功能将是最受颠覆和/或最多（我不知道）通过人工智能优化的功能？
Scott Belsky: We're entering the era where we collapse the stack in every organization where instead of having to go to someone for anything, you can kind of do more things yourself.
Scott Belsky：我们正在进入这样一个时代，每个组织都在瓦解堆栈，你不必去找别人做任何事情，而是可以自己做更多的事情。
It's very empowering to get the answer from data as opposed to having to go to a data scientist or a data analyst in the middle.
从数据中获得答案是非常有力量的，而不是必须去找数据科学家或数据分析师。
Scott Belsky: So there's going to be far less game of operator across the organization and far more empowerment for people to dig their own rabbit holes, answer their own questions and get things done.
Scott Belsky：因此，整个组织中的操作员游戏将大大减少，人们将获得更多的权力来挖掘自己的兔子洞，回答自己的问题并完成工作。
Scott Belsky: I happen to believe that that's the advantage typically of small teams, is that they're flat.
Scott Belsky：我碰巧相信这就是小团队的典型优势，那就是它们是平坦的。
The stack is collapsed.
堆栈已折叠。
People all can hear each other in an audible across the room, and that's how they run circles around big stodgy old companies that are dispersed around the world.
房间里的所有人都可以通过声音听到彼此的声音，这就是他们在分散在世界各地的古板老公司周围转圈的方式。
So maybe, this technology allows cross-functional work and to happen.
因此，也许这项技术可以实现跨职能工作。
And I'm excited about that.
我对此感到很兴奋。
Lenny: That is really interesting.
莱尼：这真的很有趣。
So essentially, what you're saying is a PM will be able to do more design, more engineering, more data potentially.
所以本质上，你所说的是产品经理将能够做更多的设计、更多的工程、更多的潜在数据。
And maybe, one day, it'll be just as good as having a data scientist in your team.
也许有一天，它会和你的团队中拥有一名数据科学家一样好。
But essentially, everyone becomes kind of this unicorn cross-functional mini-team,
但本质上，每个人都成为这个独角兽跨职能迷你团队，
Scott Belsky: Which sort of suggests this idea of meritocracy.
斯科特·贝尔斯基（Scott Belsky）：这表明了精英管理的理念。
It's almost like what if people get promoted an opportunity based on how creative and how much ingenuity they have as opposed to how many reports or bug things they've gone through or whatever else.
这几乎就像人们获得晋升的机会是基于他们的创造力和独创性，而不是他们经历过多少报告或错误事件或其他什么。
So there's something about what you're saying that I do think, yes, it's disruptive to the degree that, well, you need a data analyst in the loop.
因此，我确实认为您所说的内容具有颠覆性，以至于您需要一名数据分析师参与其中。
But I also would suggest that again, that data analyst doesn't have to answer redundant requests all day.
但我也再次建议，数据分析师不必整天回答多余的请求。
She can spend time on thinking of other things without the boundaries of functions like we just discussed.
她可以花时间思考其他事情，而不受我们刚才讨论的职能限制。
Lenny: This episode is brought to you by rows.com.
莱尼：本集由 rows.com 为您带来。
The world runs on spreadsheets.
世界靠电子表格运转。
You probably have a tab open with a spreadsheet right now.
您现在可能打开了一个包含电子表格的选项卡。
But the spreadsheet product you're using today was designed decades ago.
但您今天使用的电子表格产品是几十年前设计的。
And it shows, they live in silos away from your business data.
它表明，它们生活在远离您的业务数据的孤岛中。
They weren't made to be used on a phone.
它们不是为在手机上使用而设计的。
And if you want to do even the simplest automation, you have to figure out complex scripts that are nightmare to maintain.
如果您想做最简单的自动化，您就必须找出维护起来非常困难的复杂脚本。
Lenny: Rows is different.
莱尼：行是不同的。
It combines a modern spreadsheet editor, data integrations with APIs and your business tools and a slick sharing experience that turns any spreadsheet into a beautiful interactive website that you'll be proud to share.
它结合了现代电子表格编辑器、与 API 和业务工具的数据集成以及流畅的共享体验，可将任何电子表格变成一个精美的交互式网站，您将自豪地分享。
If you're writing a report on a growth experiment, you can use Rows to do your analysis on data straight from BigQuery or Snowflake.
如果您正在编写有关增长实验的报告，则可以使用 Rows 直接对来自 BigQuery 或 Snowflake 的数据进行分析。
If you're deep diving on marketing, you can import reports straight from Google Analytics, Facebook Ads, or Twitter, or if you're working with sales, you can natively plug Stripe, Salesforce or HubSpot directly into Rows.
如果您正在深入研究营销，则可以直接从 Google Analytics、Facebook Ads 或 Twitter 导入报告，或者如果您正在从事销售工作，则可以将 Stripe、Salesforce 或 HubSpot 直接插入到 Rows 中。
Lenny: And when you're done, you can share your work as a beautiful spreadsheet that's easy to read and embed charts, tables and calculators into Notion Confluence or anywhere on the web.
Lenny：完成后，您可以将您的工作作为精美的电子表格进行共享，该电子表格易于阅读，并将图表、表格和计算器嵌入到 Notion Confluence 或网络上的任何位置。
I've already moved some of my favorite spreadsheet templates to Rows.
我已经将一些我最喜欢的电子表格模板移至 Rows。
Go to rows.com/lenny to check them out.
请访问 rows.com/lenny 查看它们。
That's rows.com/lenny.
这是 rows.com/lenny。
A lot of listeners are product managers.
很多听众都是产品经理。
And so just going a little bit further, even within the product management function, how do you see the PM role changing in the next five years as a result of AI?
更进一步，即使在产品管理职能范围内，您如何看待未来五年由于人工智能而导致的 PM 角色的变化？
Scott Belsky: Well, let me start by saying that I think that the greatest performers I've ever worked with, whether they're designers or product leaders, basically preserve the time to explore lots of possibilities.
Scott Belsky：首先我要说的是，我认为与我共事过的最优秀的表演者，无论是设计师还是产品负责人，基本上都会保留时间来探索许多可能性。
They call those possibilities down to fewer set.
他们将这些可能性归结为更少的集合。
They get feedback on those.
他们会得到有关这些的反馈。
They refine them even further.
他们进一步完善它们。
Scott Belsky: And then, they present to the team.
Scott Belsky：然后，他们向团队展示。
These are the two or three things I think we should do.
这是我认为我们应该做的两三件事。
And that's the way a great designer works, for example.
例如，这就是伟大设计师的工作方式。
That is a function of time.
这是时间的函数。
If you have the skills and the capabilities, it's just how much time.
如果你有技能和能力，问题就在于有多少时间。
How much time do you have to explore the full surface area of possibility and find the best possible option.
您有多少时间来探索可能性的全部表面并找到最佳的选择。
Scott Belsky: In my world, in my mind, generative AI and AI for all, when it talks to me about just product leaders exploring possibilities, this should expand the surface area.
Scott Belsky：在我的世界里，在我看来，生成式人工智能和所有人的人工智能，当它与我谈论只是产品领导者探索可能性时，这应该扩大表面积。
I was talking to a pretty well known director in Hollywood world, and he was telling me that he uses ChatGPT.
我正在与好莱坞世界的一位相当知名的导演交谈，他告诉我他使用 ChatGPT。
I was like, "No. Are you serious?
我当时想，“不。你是认真的？
You do?"
你知道吗？”
Scott Belsky: And he was like, "Yeah, I don't use it to write any scripts." But sometimes when I'm developing something with a writing partner, I will ask ChatGPT, "What would you do?" And I'll explain the full instance, the full situation in extreme detail.
斯科特·贝尔斯基：他说，“是的，我不会用它来编写任何脚本。”但有时当我与写作伙伴一起开发某些东西时，我会问 ChatGPT，“你会做什么？”我将极其详细地解释完整的实例、完整的情况。
And it will spit out five scenarios.
它会给出五种场景。
And I actually don't use any of them, but it just gives me more surface area.
实际上我没有使用它们中的任何一个，但它只是给了我更多的表面积。
It tells me the things that I wouldn't want to do, which is also good data.
它告诉我那些我不想做的事情，这也是很好的数据。
And I just thought that response is so interesting.
我只是觉得这个反应很有趣。
And so when you ask about product leaders, I think that's what we're going to have, is we're going to have the superpower of exploring far more surface area in far less time.
因此，当你问起产品领导者时，我认为这就是我们将拥有的，我们将拥有在更短的时间内探索更多表面积的超能力。
Lenny: It reminds me of something I always share about why do you need a PM?
Lenny：这让我想起我经常分享的关于为什么需要 PM 的事情？
Why do you need a designer?
为什么需要设计师？
Why do you need a researcher?
为什么需要研究员？
It's not necessarily that they're just very good at these specific skills.
他们不一定非常擅长这些特定技能。
It's that they just have time to do this one thing that needs to be done.
而是他们刚好有时间去做这一件需要做的事情。
You can have engineers do the PM role, but they don't have time.
您可以让工程师担任 PM 角色，但他们没有时间。
They want to code and they'd rather do that.
他们想要编码并且他们宁愿这样做。
And so, this is really interesting that it connects to.
所以，这确实很有趣。
It'll give everyone a little more time to get better at the thing they want to be doing.
这会给每个人更多的时间来更好地完成他们想做的事情。
Lenny: Is there anything you're doing with PMs at Adobe at this point that help them leverage these tools and just the ways of working that you're actually using today?
Lenny：您目前正在与 Adobe 的产品经理一起做些什么来帮助他们利用这些工具以及您今天实际使用的工作方式吗？
Scott Belsky: One of my obsessions has been bringing design earlier into the process of product development.
Scott Belsky：我的痴迷之一就是尽早将设计引入产品开发过程。
So it's not necessarily AI yet.
所以它还不一定是人工智能。
But it's the idea of designers, first of all, being in the room, even being in the room with some of the customer research and some of the debates around even the value proposition to the customer and some of the things that traditionally happen only with the PMs.
但这是设计师的想法，首先，在房间里，甚至在房间里进行一些客户研究，甚至围绕客户的价值主张进行一些辩论，以及一些传统上只与产品经理发生的事情。
I just find that, again, collapsing the stack, if you will.
我只是发现，如果你愿意的话，再次折叠堆栈。
Having the designer hear these things and contribute gives them a golden gut as they are then sitting down later and going through possible interfaces to solve the problem.
让设计师听到这些事情并做出贡献，这给了他们一个黄金直觉，因为他们随后会坐下来通过可能的界面来解决问题。
Scott Belsky: So I love bringing design upstream.
Scott Belsky：所以我喜欢将设计带到上游。
In fact, that's probably been the cheat code of my career as a product leader, has just been disproportionately empowering design throughout the process.
事实上，这可能是我作为产品领导者职业生涯中的作弊代码，在整个过程中不成比例地赋予设计权力。
I think what we're going to start seeing is generative AI augmenting the designer's work in real time.
我认为我们将开始看到生成式人工智能实时增强设计师的工作。
Scott Belsky: So right now, I mean in Photoshop, we're experimenting with instead of just reducing an image and cropping, you can also extend an image.
Scott Belsky：所以现在，我的意思是在 Photoshop 中，我们正在尝试不仅可以缩小图像并裁剪，还可以扩展图像。
And that's, of course, using generative AI for out painting.
当然，这就是使用生成式人工智能进行绘画。
And so, you can imagine as you're doing edits in that as well as in other forms of design, getting kind of thumbnails of what you might be trying to accomplish and then touching them, almost like predictive text to go to the next step, to the next step, to the next step and take leaps in the creative process as opposed to incremental steps.
因此，您可以想象，当您在这种形式以及其他形式的设计中进行编辑时，获取您可能想要完成的内容的缩略图，然后触摸它们，几乎就像预测文本一样进入下一步，下一步，下一步，并在创意过程中取得飞跃，而不是增量步骤。
Scott Belsky: I think that that's going to happen far more.
Scott Belsky：我认为这种情况将会发生得更多。
And hopefully, product designers, product managers will be involved to some extent in some of these decision points as designers have more options to choose from.
希望产品设计师、产品经理能够在某种程度上参与其中的一些决策点，因为设计师有更多的选择可供选择。
Lenny: You threw out this term golden gut.
莱尼：你抛弃了“金肠”这个词。
What is that about?
那是关于什么的？
Scott Belsky: The golden gut is when you're designing an experience and a flow.
Scott Belsky：黄金直觉是当你设计一种体验和流程时。
You are playing around with all kinds of options.
你正在尝试各种选择。
You're moving things around.
你正在移动东西。
You're saying, "Actually, that's too complicated.
你会说：“事实上，这太复杂了。
Maybe I'll separate this one page into three steps as opposed to one page with three steps in a row.
也许我会将这一页分成三个步骤，而不是一页连续三个步骤。
How do I break this down?
我该如何分解这个？
How do I simplify?"
我该如何简化？”
Scott Belsky: You sometimes have instincts like, "Well wait, what if I just remove this all together?
斯科特·贝尔斯基：有时你会有这样的直觉：“等等，如果我把这些都去掉怎么办？
What if you didn't even have this whole series of steps?
如果您甚至没有这一系列步骤怎么办？
What if I just had a presumptuous default instead and customers could change it if they think they need to?"
如果我只是故意默认，并且客户认为需要的话可以更改，该怎么办？”
Scott Belsky: And in some of those sorts of, I wonder if, I wonder if, I wonder if, to me is the difference between a very junior product thinker and a very experienced product thinker?
Scott Belsky：在某些方面，我想知道，我想知道，我想知道，对我来说，一个非常初级的产品思考者和一个非常有经验的产品思考者之间是否有区别？
I think experienced product thinkers with that golden gut of, "Oh my gosh.
我认为经验丰富的产品思想家有着“天哪。
Wait, reduction of cognitive load." Maybe even if 10% of people get confused to get 90% of people far faster through this process is a big win and a great opportunity cost trade off.
等等，减少认知负荷。”也许即使 10% 的人感到困惑，让 90% 的人更快地完成这个过程也是一个巨大的胜利，也是一个巨大的机会成本权衡。
I think those sorts of little micro-decisions that we make in the process of building products, that's the golden gut.
我认为我们在构建产品的过程中做出的那些微小的决定，就是黄金肠。
Lenny: I love it.
莱尼：我喜欢。
I have not heard that term before.
我以前没有听说过这个词。
For PMs listening and they're like, "Okay, AI's happening.
对于倾听的产品经理来说，他们会说：“好吧，人工智能正在发生。
I don't know what to do," what would be your advice for them to stay ahead and be aware of where things are going and not be left behind?
我不知道该怎么办，”您对他们有何建议，以保持领先并了解事情的发展方向，不被抛在后面？
Scott Belsky: Quite simply in one word, play.
Scott Belsky：简单地说，就是玩。
We all have to be playing with this technology.
我们都必须使用这项技术。
We have to find ways.
我们必须想办法。
The risk of becoming more experienced in your career is you get stuck in your ways.
在你的职业生涯中变得更有经验的风险是你会陷入困境。
And you're like, "Ah, no. I don't need to have that automatic draft in my email and get ChatGPT to suggest what I want to respond with.
你会说，“啊，不。我不需要在我的电子邮件中添加自动草稿，也不需要让 ChatGPT 来建议我想要回复的内容。
I'm fine without that." Make sure you try it.
没有那个我也很好。”请务必尝试一下。
Make sure you play with it.
确保你玩过它。
Write poems for your friends.
为你的朋友写诗。
Try a lot of these various generative AI tools out there just to see what's possible and pursue every curiosity.
尝试多种不同的生成式人工智能工具，看看有什么可能并追求每一个好奇心。
Scott Belsky: The reason I started the Implications newsletters is because I was seeing this high velocity of new stuff every day.
Scott Belsky：我开始出版 Implications 时事通讯的原因是因为我每天都看到新事物的高速发展。
And I'm like, "I have to force myself to make sure I understand all of this and think about how these implications will change my business as well as the world that I operate in." And there was no better way to do that than to have to write about it, and promise my readers I'll get a monthly thing out there.
我想，“我必须强迫自己确保我理解所有这些，并思考这些影响将如何改变我的业务以及我所经营的世界。”没有比写这篇文章更好的方法了，并向我的读者保证我会每月发布一篇文章。
So I just think we all have to do some version of that.
所以我认为我们都必须做一些这样的事情。
Lenny: Let's plug Implications while we're at it.
Lenny：让我们在讨论的同时插入含义。
How do people go subscribe or do they find it?
人们如何订阅或找到它？
Scott Belsky: Yeah.
斯科特·贝尔斯基：是的。
No. It's implications.com.
不，这是impacts.com。
So it's easy to find, but it's a monthly exercise where throughout the month, I try to capture a few things I think are important.
所以它很容易找到，但这是每月一次的练习，在整个月中，我尝试捕捉一些我认为重要的事情。
And I really try to go deep down the rabbit hole of what the implications are for various parts of our work and life.
我真的尝试深入探究它对我们工作和生活各个部分的影响。
And it's been a fun exercise.
这是一次有趣的练习。
And also, I get some good polarizing feedback in the process.
而且，我在这个过程中得到了一些很好的两极分化的反馈。
Lenny: Oh you do?
莱尼：哦，你知道吗？
Interesting.
有趣的。
You should share that.
你应该分享这一点。
That'd be interesting, is here's what I'm getting in response to the stuff I'm writing.
这很有趣，这就是我对我正在写的东西的回应。
This also touches on a thread that comes up a lot on this podcast, is the power of just writing to help you think through stuff.
这也涉及到这个播客中经常出现的一个主题，即写作可以帮助你思考问题的力量。
A lot of people think my newsletters, I'm just sharing all these things I know.
很多人认为我的时事通讯，我只是分享我所知道的所有这些事情。
I'm just like, "I know it in my head.
我只是想，“我心里知道。
I'm just going to share it in the thing." But it's more.
我只是想在这件事上分享它。”但还不止这些。
The writing helps me figure it out and gives me an excuse.
写作帮助我弄清楚并给了我一个借口。
And like you said, it's a forcing function to spend the time crystallizing it.
正如你所说，花时间将其具体化是一种强制功能。
And so, that's another reminder for that.
这是另一个提醒。
Scott Belsky: And capturing those things, I think, the thing I've kind of learned over the years with writing and also with product development is sometimes you capture these little glimpses and things or sketches, and they become relevant years later.
斯科特·贝尔斯基：我认为，捕捉这些东西，多年来我在写作和产品开发中学到的东西是，有时你捕捉到这些小一瞥、事物或草图，它们在几年后变得相关。
So don't always capture and write because of a foreseeable need for that content.
因此，不要总是因为可预见的对该内容的需求而捕获和写入。
Consider it almost like a back burner that you're constantly tending to.
把它想象成你一直在关注的一个次要的事情。
And imagine that three years from now, the stars will align, and this will become invaluable content or some crucial idea for a problem you're facing at the moment.
想象一下，三年后，星星将排列在一起，这将成为无价的内容或解决您目前面临的问题的关键想法。
Lenny: There's a lot of people actually in your shoes that want to write more and put content out, but that also have a full-time job with a lot of things on your plate.
莱尼：实际上有很多人和你一样想写更多内容并发布内容，但他们也有一份全职工作，有很多事情要做。
Any advice for actually getting it done the way you've been getting it done?
对于按照您一直以来的方式实际完成工作有什么建议吗？
Scott Belsky: Listen, there's no hack to it other than ruthlessness of time and prioritization saying no to most things.
Scott Belsky：听着，除了无情的时间和优先顺序对大多数事情说“不”之外，没有其他办法可以解决这个问题。
This morning, I went for a run and I was like, "I have 40 minutes exactly until I have to get in the shower and I have to be somewhere in 30 minutes from that moment." I'm going to take those 40 minutes or at least 35 of them, and I'm going to write.
今天早上，我去跑步，我当时想，“距离我必须去洗澡，我还有 40 分钟的时间，从那一刻起我必须在 30 分钟内到达某个地方。”我将用这 40 分钟或至少 35 分钟来写作。
I don't care if I write five words or five pages.
我不在乎我写的是五个字还是五页。
And it's just a great...
这只是一个伟大的...
Without that discipline though, as you said, it's super hard to get it in the seams of the schedule.
但是，正如您所说，如果没有这种纪律，就很难将其纳入日程安排中。
Lenny: Speaking of discipline, you wrote a book called The Messy Middle.
莱尼：说到纪律，你写了一本叫做《混乱的中间》的书。
And without even talking about what it is, title's pretty...
甚至不用说它是什么，标题就很漂亮......
I think people feel like, "I get it." And imagine many people listening are founders or PMs that are feeling like they're in this messy middle.
我认为人们会觉得“我明白了”。想象一下，许多倾听的人都是创始人或产品经理，他们感觉自己正处于这个混乱的中间。
What is one piece of advice for people in this period that you think might help them through the messy middle?
您认为对这一时期的人们有什么建议可以帮助他们度过混乱的中间时期？
Scott Belsky: The bottom line is that these years in the middle of whether it's a venture, new startup, old turnaround within a big company, they are messy because they are full of lows.
Scott Belsky：最重要的是，这些年来，无论是风险投资、新创业公司还是大公司内部的旧转型，它们都很混乱，因为它们充满了低谷。
It's very volatile.
它非常不稳定。
When you're in those lows, you need to find a way to endure them.
当你处于低谷时，你需要找到一种方法来忍受它们。
You need to endure the anonymity and uncertainty and anxiety.
你需要忍受匿名、不确定性和焦虑。
Scott Belsky: I'm sure a lot of listeners, whether they're in big companies or starting their own company, it's hard to be doing something that no one knows or cares about.
Scott Belsky：我确信很多听众，无论他们是在大公司还是自己创办公司，做一些没人知道或关心的事情是很困难的。
And I always like to remind myself that the life expectancy of humans a hundred plus years ago was 25 years old.
而且我总是喜欢提醒自己，一百多年前人类的预期寿命是25岁。
So the idea of spending three to five years of your life on something, especially if it might fail, was a bad decision.
因此，花三到五年的时间去做某件事，尤其是如果它可能失败的话，是一个错误的决定。
And I think biologically, we feel the need for constant rewards and affirmation to stick with something long enough.
我认为从生物学角度来说，我们觉得需要不断的奖励和肯定才能坚持足够长的时间。
Scott Belsky: And in fact, most of your listeners were all building things that take many, many years to defy the odds.
斯科特·贝尔斯基：事实上，你的大多数听众都在建造需要很多很多年才能克服困难的东西。
And we have to overcome our natural human tendencies in this instance by sticking together long enough to figure it out.
在这种情况下，我们必须坚持足够长的时间来解决这个问题，从而克服人类的自然倾向。
So how do you do that?
那么你该怎么做呢？
Scott Belsky: I mean, obviously, part of it is culture, wanting to serve the customers you serve and working with the team you are working with and that being enough to kind of stick it long enough.
斯科特·贝尔斯基：我的意思是，很明显，其中一部分是文化，想要为你所服务的客户提供服务，并与你正在合作的团队合作，这足以让你坚持足够长的时间。
I think part of it is short-circuiting the reward system, finding micro goals and milestones that are mutually agreed upon.
我认为其中一部分是缩短奖励系统，找到双方同意的微观目标和里程碑。
We're going to celebrate these even though in the greater scheme of things, they don't matter much.
我们将庆祝这些，尽管在更大的计划中，它们并不重要。
Scott Belsky: I think that's a key part of keeping the team and keeping the dream alive.
Scott Belsky：我认为这是保持团队和保持梦想的关键部分。
I always like to use the analogy of we're driving our teams across country as product leaders with the windows blacked out in the backseat and everyone's sitting in the backseat.
我总是喜欢用这样的类比：我们作为产品领导者，带领我们的团队穿越全国，后座的窗户被拉黑，每个人都坐在后座。
And so, if they don't know what we're doing that we're making progress, this traffic is clearing, we just cross state lines.
因此，如果他们不知道我们正在做什么，我们正在取得进展，交通正在畅通，我们就可以跨越州界。
If they don't receive the narrative, they will go stir-crazy.
如果他们不接受叙述，他们就会发疯。
And so there's a lot of research around progress, be getting progress and how progress is a source of motivation.
因此，有很多关于进步、取得进步以及进步如何成为动力源泉的研究。
And so as product leaders, we have to merchandise progress.
因此，作为产品领导者，我们必须推动进步。
We have to be the steward of this narrative.
我们必须成为这种叙事的管理者。
Lenny: And you touched on this a bit as you were just talking, but there's also this moment where it makes sense to quit like you shouldn't stay with things endlessly.
莱尼：你刚才在谈话时谈到了这一点，但在这个时刻，退出也是有意义的，就像你不应该无休止地呆在事情上一样。
And I guess any advice on just when something is like, "Okay, you should probably move on from this." Makes me think a little bit about there's all these companies that just keep going that maybe shouldn't keep going because they have enough money or they're just like, "No, founders never quit." Any advice or thoughts that you share there?
我猜想当某些事情就像“好吧，你应该继续前进”时的任何建议。让我思考一下，所有这些继续前进的公司也许不应该继续前进，因为他们有足够的钱，或者他们只是说，“不，创始人永远不会放弃。”您在那里分享什么建议或想法？
Scott Belsky: Yeah.
斯科特·贝尔斯基：是的。
I've had this conversation quite a few times over the years with founders and friends who were running a company going sideways or worse and have had this question, "Should I continue or not?" I always have the same answer.
多年来，我曾多次与创始人和朋友进行过这样的对话，他们经营的公司陷入困境或更糟，并且有这样的问题：“我应该继续还是不继续？”我总是有同样的答案。
I basically say, and I really ask, "How much conviction do you have in the solution you're building?"
我基本上会说，而且我真的会问，“你对你正在构建的解决方案有多少信心？”
Scott Belsky: I know in the beginning before you knew all know, you had tons of conviction.
斯科特·贝尔斯基（Scott Belsky）：我知道一开始，在你们知道所有人都知道之前，你们就有了很多信念。
That's what caused you to leave your job.
这就是导致你离职的原因。
That's what caused you to take all this risk and hire people and raise money and all this stuff.
这就是导致你冒所有风险、雇用人员、筹集资金以及所有这些事情的原因。
Now, knowing all you know, do you have more or less conviction in the problem and the solution you're building?
现在，了解了您所知道的一切后，您对问题和您正在构建的解决方案是否或多或少有信心？
And I'll tell you, I get different answers.
我会告诉你，我得到不同的答案。
So some people are like, "Oh, Scott, I mean I have more conviction.
所以有些人会说，“哦，斯科特，我的意思是我更有信心了。
All that I've learned, all the validation I've received from customers, we just haven't figured it out yet.
我所学到的一切，我从客户那里收到的所有验证，我们只是还没有弄清楚。
It's driving me crazy.
这让我发疯。
We've tried three times, and it's still like each product fails, but I have more conviction than ever before."
我们已经尝试了三次，但每次产品都失败了，但我比以往任何时候都更有信心。”
Scott Belsky: And for those people, I'm like, "You know what?
斯科特·贝尔斯基：对于那些人，我会说，“你知道吗？
You're just in the messy middle.
你只是处于混乱的中间。
Stick with it.
坚持下去。
This is par for the course." But oftentimes, I'll hear, "Honestly, if I knew then what I know now, I would not have done this.
这是当然的。”但我常常会听到，“老实说，如果我当时知道我现在所知道的，我就不会这样做。
Holy shit.
天哪。
" I'm like, "Then quit." Your life is short.
” 我想，“那就退出吧。”你的生命很短暂。
You have a great team.
你们有一支很棒的团队。
Pivot.
枢。
Do something completely different.
做一些完全不同的事情。
If you've lost conviction, you should not be doing what you're doing in the world of entrepreneurship.
如果你失去了信念，你就不应该做你在创业世界中所做的事情。
Lenny: Sometimes, there are moments of that, I imagine.
莱尼：我想，有时候，会有这样的时刻。
And so, there's probably some spectrum of just how little conviction and how long you felt that, right?
所以，可能有一些范围来衡量你的信念有多么少以及你有这种感觉多久了，对吗？
Scott Belsky: I think so.
斯科特·贝尔斯基：我想是的。
But at the same time, listen, we all have ups and downs.
但与此同时，听着，我们都有坎坷。
We all have good days and bad days.
我们都有好日子和坏日子。
However, I do think that great founders are just...
然而，我确实认为伟大的创始人只是......
They absolutely know in their core that something needs to exist, and they will just be ruthless and relentless until it does.
他们内心深处绝对知道某些东西需要存在，并且他们会毫不留情地坚持下去，直到它出现为止。
But if you lose that, I actually don't know if you have the fuel to continue.
但如果你失去了这一点，我实际上不知道你是否还有继续下去的动力。
So listen, you're right.
所以听着，你是对的。
Don't make a bold decision on a bad day.
不要在糟糕的一天做出大胆的决定。
But if the conviction generally dissipates, be open-minded about other options.
但如果信念普遍消失，请对其他选择持开放态度。
Lenny: You do a lot of angel investing, talked to a lot of founders.
莱尼：你做了很多天使投资，与很多创始人交谈过。
What is it that you look for?
你在寻找什么？
What do you think is important for a startup to show you for it to feel like a good bet that it'll likely work out?
您认为对于一家初创公司来说，向您展示什么是重要的，让您觉得这是一个可能成功的好赌注？
What are some of the important attributes that you look for?
您寻找的一些重要属性是什么？
Scott Belsky: I'll talk for a few things on team and then a few things on product.
Scott Belsky：我会谈谈团队的一些事情，然后是产品的一些事情。
Scott Belsky: On team, I really value founders who listen, who really learn, who long to shake shit up a bit, and also value the mission that they're on more than the money that it yields because I do think that especially during a period of time where you don't have revenue, you're going to need to be motivated by something grander and bolder than revenue.
斯科特·贝尔斯基（Scott Belsky）：在团队中，我真的很看重那些善于倾听、真正学习、渴望改变现状的创始人，并且更看重他们所承担的使命，而不是它所带来的金钱，因为我确实认为，特别是在没有收入的时期，你需要受到比收入更宏伟、更大胆的东西的激励。
Scott Belsky: I also have an allergic reaction to founders that are real promoters who are constantly trying to sugarcoat the truth, who like to gloss over the hard parts.
斯科特·贝尔斯基：我对创始人也有过敏反应，他们是真正的推动者，他们不断地试图粉饰事实，喜欢粉饰困难的部分。
I've always admired leaders that are optimistic about the future but very pragmatic and somewhat pessimistic about the present.
我一直很钦佩那些对未来持乐观态度但又非常务实且对现在有些悲观的领导者。
So the founders that I have a great sort of chemistry with are people who are like, "This is how big the market is.
因此，与我有很好化学反应的创始人都是这样的人：“这就是市场有多大。
This is how amazing this is.
这是多么奇妙的事情啊。
I know this needs to exist."
我知道这需要存在。”
Scott Belsky: But we've got a lot to figure out.
Scott Belsky：但我们还有很多事情需要弄清楚。
There are things that are not working.
有些事情不起作用。
We don't have these data sets.
我们没有这些数据集。
These are the major obstacles we're struggling with.
这些是我们正在努力克服的主要障碍。
These are the things that keep me up at night.
这些都是让我彻夜难眠的事情。
Those are real people.
这些都是真实的人。
And you know that in that volatile messy middle that they're going to inevitably go through that their team, their investors are going to have the real truth and they're going to be able to engage and find solutions.
你知道，在那个不稳定、混乱的中间，他们将不可避免地经历他们的团队、他们的投资者将了解真相，他们将能够参与并找到解决方案。
Scott Belsky: So I really love finding those types of founders, and I'm very wary of the name-dropping overly promoting folks who are unlikely to be able to partner in that way.
斯科特·贝尔斯基（Scott Belsky）：所以我真的很喜欢寻找这些类型的创始人，而且我对那些不太可能以这种方式合作的人过度提拔那些名不见经传的创始人非常警惕。
On the product side, I'm looking for an object model way of thinking about a product that I am confident the will scale and as they solve their problem.
在产品方面，我正在寻找一种对象模型方式来思考产品，我相信该产品能够扩展并解决问题。
And when I say object model, what I mean is it clear whenever you're seeing the product, how it works, where you came from, where you're going?
当我说对象模型时，我的意思是当你看到产品时，它是如何工作的，你从哪里来，你要去哪里？
Scott Belsky: Those are the three questions I always ask when I'm doing product reviews.
Scott Belsky：这是我在进行产品评论时总是问的三个问题。
It's like, "How did I get here?
就像，“我是怎么到这里的？
What do I do now?
我现在该怎么办？
And what do I do next?" And I feel like every screen and every product experience, you should be able to answer those three questions.
接下来我该怎么办？”我觉得每个屏幕和每个产品体验，你都应该能够回答这三个问题。
Sometimes, I'll be talking to a team that says they're design driven, says that they're building a incredible product, and they'll show me a demo and I'm like, "This is all over the place." There's no clean clear breadcrumbs and object model for how this thing works.
有时，我会与一个团队交谈，他们说他们是设计驱动的，说他们正在构建一个令人难以置信的产品，他们会给我展示一个演示，我想，“这到处都是。”对于这个东西是如何工作的，没有清晰的面包屑和对象模型。
How are they ever going to get people through their funnel?
他们如何让人们通过他们的渠道？
Clearly, they don't value this as a core principle, and that's also always a red flag.
显然，他们并不重视这一点作为核心原则，而且这始终是一个危险信号。
And then finally, I just obviously have to believe in the problem they're solving.
最后，我显然必须相信他们正在解决的问题。
So those are some of the things I think about.
这些是我想到的一些事情。
Lenny: And you focus primarily on consumer or do you invest all over the place?
莱尼：你们主要关注消费者还是到处投资？
And I'm asking in case people want to reach out and maybe, "Hey Scott, you want to ."
我问的是，如果人们想要伸出援手，也许，“嘿斯科特，你愿意。”
Scott Belsky: Yeah.
斯科特·贝尔斯基：是的。
No. I'm pretty agnostic.
不，我是个不可知论者。
I look for product design-oriented teams making things that need to exist.
我寻找以产品设计为导向的团队来制作需要存在的东西。
Beyond that, I try not to be too prescriptive.
除此之外，我尽量不要过于规范。
Lenny: Okay.
莱尼：好的。
Excellent.
出色的。
Any last words of wisdom that you think impact the way people build product in the world that tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of listeners listening?
您认为最后的智慧之言会影响人们在世界上构建产品的方式，而这个世界上有成千上万的听众在聆听吗？
Is there anything else you want to share before we get to our very exciting lightning round?
在我们开始激动人心的闪电回合之前，您还有什么想分享的吗？
Scott Belsky: Two quick things.
Scott Belsky：两件事很快。
One, for the moment that we're in, and then one for why we do what we do.
一是我们所处的时刻，二是我们为什么要做我们所做的事情。
For the moment that we're in, we're in a resource-constrained environment.
目前，我们正处于资源有限的环境中。
Let's face it.
让我们面对现实吧。
We're all going to have less money, fewer headcount, all that kind of stuff.
我们都会拥有更少的钱，更少的员工，诸如此类的事情。
Scott Belsky: And I've always found that resourcefulness brings you further than resources despite the fact that over the last seven to 10 years, we've basically thrown resources at every problem.
Scott Belsky：我一直发现足智多谋比资源更能让你走得更远，尽管事实上在过去的七到十年里，我们基本上在每个问题上都投入了资源。
Oh my gosh, this is not scaling.
天哪，这不是缩放。
Throw more money at servers.
在服务器上投入更多的钱。
Oh my goodness, we need more people on the social media team.
天哪，我们的社交媒体团队需要更多人。
Throw more money at headcounts.
在人员编制上投入更多资金。
We've had a resources way of solving our problems as opposed to a, well, let's refactor how we run that database, or let's refactor how that team answers customer service requests.
我们有一种解决问题的资源方法，而不是让我们重构我们运行数据库的方式，或者让我们重构团队如何回答客户服务请求。
Let's bring a new technology to make it more efficient.
让我们引入新技术来提高效率。
Let's leverage and play with AI to see if that can help us.
让我们利用人工智能来看看它是否可以帮助我们。
Scott Belsky: We are in this era now where we're being forced to be resourceful and to refactor as opposed to hire and throw resources at problems.
Scott Belsky：我们现在正处于这个时代，我们被迫要足智多谋并进行重构，而不是雇佣和投入资源来解决问题。
I think that's a great opportunity.
我认为这是一个很好的机会。
I feel like this is where the best teams are going to build that muscle, that are going to go the distance.
我觉得这就是最好的团队将要增强力量的地方，这样才能走得更远。
That's why all these VCs say it's so cliche that the best companies are always built in errors like these.
这就是为什么所有这些风险投资家都说最好的公司总是在这样的错误中建立起来，这是陈词滥调。
Scott Belsky: So my point number one is capitalize on the crisis, everyone.
斯科特·贝尔斯基：所以我的第一点是大家都要利用这场危机。
If resources are carbs, resourcefulness is like muscle.
如果资源是碳水化合物，那么足智多谋就像肌肉。
It stays with you.
它会留在你身边。
It makes you stronger, and it helps you have a better intuition and better performance over time.
它让你变得更强大，随着时间的推移，它可以帮助你拥有更好的直觉和更好的表现。
And then, I guess taking a step back, I would just encourage folks to recognize that anything amazing in the venture world is ultimately an exception.
然后，我想退后一步，我只是鼓励人们认识到风险投资世界中任何令人惊奇的事情最终都是例外。
Scott Belsky: And with all of the best practices, Lenny, that you and I just discussed and all the stuff that we read and books and whatever else, I always try to remind myself that at the end of the day, sometimes, exceptions are the rule when it comes to doing something truly transformative and that nothing extraordinary is ever achieved through ordinary means.
斯科特·贝尔斯基：莱尼，你和我刚刚讨论过的所有最佳实践，以及我们读过的所有内容、书籍以及其他任何东西，我总是试图提醒自己，归根结底，有时，例外是做真正变革性事情的规则，通过普通手段无法实现任何非凡的事情。
And so, while we should always take these best practices and, sure, listen to some of the lessons I learned the hard way and whatever else, but at the same time if everyone says you're crazy, you're either crazy or you're really onto something.
因此，虽然我们应该始终采取这些最佳实践，当然，也要听听我通过艰难的方式学到的一些教训等等，但与此同时，如果每个人都说你疯了，那么你要么疯了，要么你真的在做某事。
So take that with a grain of salt.
所以对此持保留态度。
Lenny: Love that.
莱尼：喜欢这个。
Speaking of extraordinary, I thought it'd be cool to just give you a chance to talk about what you're doing at Adobe.
说到非凡，我认为给您一个机会谈论您在 Adobe 所做的事情会很酷。
What are some of the products that you're working on?
您正在开发哪些产品？
What should folks know about potentially what's happening in Adobe they may not be aware of?
对于他们可能不知道的 Adobe 中可能发生的事情，人们应该了解哪些信息？
Scott Belsky: Yeah.
斯科特·贝尔斯基：是的。
No. Thanks for asking.
不，谢谢你的提问。
For us, I would say there's really three trends that are driving or three waves of transformation, I would say, that are driving the strategy right now for us.
对于我们来说，我想说，确实有三种趋势正在推动，或者说三波转型，正在推动我们现在的战略。
One is just that people are becoming more creatively confident.
一是人们在创造力上变得更加自信。
It's kind of wild that we're like most confident as five-year-olds creatively when we're drawing and our parents are like, "Oh my God, that's beautiful.
当我们画画时，我们像五岁孩子一样对创造力充满信心，而我们的父母会说，“天哪，那太漂亮了，这有点疯狂。
That's amazing.
太棒了。
Let's put it on the fridge." And then creative confidence kind of goes down from there for most adults, and that's really sad.
我们把它放在冰箱上吧。”然后，对于大多数成年人来说，创造力信心就会随之下降，这真的很令人难过。
Scott Belsky: And with generative AI and tools, we have something called the Adobe Express in market, and our generative AI offering is called Firefly.
Scott Belsky：通过生成式 AI 和工具，我们在市场上推出了名为 Adobe Express 的产品，我们的生成式 AI 产品称为 Firefly。
These types of tools make people feel more creatively confident right away.
这些类型的工具让人们立即感到更有创造力的信心。
It's pretty amazing to see people that would never pick up a pen and draw or suddenly feeling confident.
看到那些永远不会拿起笔画画或突然感到自信的人真是太神奇了。
So I would say that's like wave number one.
所以我想说这就像第一波浪潮。
Scott Belsky: Wave number two that we talked about a little earlier is the fact that creative professionals can now explore 10X the surface area of possibility.
Scott Belsky：我们之前谈到的第二波浪潮是，创意专业人士现在可以探索 10 倍的可能性。
These tools are making them so much more efficient.
这些工具使他们的效率大大提高。
And some people are like, "Oh my gosh, creative pros are going to be replaced." No. No, no, no. They're not.
有些人会说，“天哪，创意专业人士将被取代。”不，不，不，不。他们不是。
They're just going to find 10X better solutions.
他们只会找到 10 倍更好的解决方案。
They're going to have that capability to explore more possibilities.
他们将有能力探索更多可能性。
And that's what makes design great, is finding, exploring more surface area.
这就是设计之所以伟大的原因，就是发现、探索更多的表面积。
Scott Belsky: And then, I would say the third wave that's fascinating to me is personalization.
Scott Belsky：然后，我会说令我着迷的第三波浪潮是个性化。
I think we talked about this a little bit, our apps will meet us where we are.
我想我们对此进行了一些讨论，我们的应用程序将在我们所处的位置与我们见面。
I think that every marketing experience will be increasingly personalized for each of us.
我认为对于我们每个人来说，每一次营销体验都将变得越来越个性化。
Every commerce experience, they'll know who we are.
每一次商业经历，他们都会知道我们是谁。
They'll just show us our shoe size and no one else's.
他们只会向我们展示我们的鞋子尺码，而不是其他人的。
Scott Belsky: These sorts of transformations will really change the entire world of commerce, and content, and media, and everything else.
斯科特·贝尔斯基：这些转变将真正改变整个商业世界、内容、媒体以及其他一切。
And Adobe has a big digital marketing business that is focused on enabling some of that.
Adobe 拥有庞大的数字营销业务，专注于实现其中的一些目标。
So those are factors of strategy that I would say are driving some of the new products we have under development.
因此，我认为这些战略因素正在推动我们正在开发的一些新产品。
And now, it's all about let's talk more shit.
现在，我们就来谈谈更多的废话吧。
Lenny: I love that.
莱尼：我喜欢这个。
You need a banner of that.
你需要一个这样的横幅。
It's been amazing to watch Adobe's rise over the last decade.
目睹 Adobe 在过去十年中的崛起真是令人惊叹。
It just felt like it was going nowhere.
只是感觉无处可去。
And all of a sudden, it's a juggernaut.
突然间，它变成了一个主宰。
And so, great work, Scott and everyone else involved.
所以，斯科特和其他所有参与人员都干得很好。
But with that, we've reached our very exciting lightning round.
但至此，我们已经进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。
I've got six questions for you.
我有六个问题要问你。
We'll try to go through it pretty fast.
我们会尽力快速完成它。
Sound good?
听起来不错吗？
Lenny: Okay.
莱尼：好的。
Sound excited.
声音很兴奋。
Here we go.
开始了。
Lenny: Let's do it.
莱尼：我们开始吧。
What are two or three books that you've recommended most to other people?
您向其他人推荐最多的两三本书是什么？
Scott Belsky: First is Build by Tony Fadell.
Scott Belsky：首先是 Tony Fadell 构建的。
Tony is just an amazing, charismatic, deeply pragmatic, product builder.
托尼是一位令人惊叹的、有魅力的、非常务实的产品构建者。
He's been brave enough to do both Adams and Bits as he says.
正如他所说，他有足够的勇气去做亚当斯和比特斯的事情。
And his book is just chock-full of wisdom.
他的书充满了智慧。
I do appreciate some of these kind of laws of nature, laws of power type books.
我确实很欣赏一些自然法则、权力法则类型的书籍。
I love psychology books.
我喜欢心理学书籍。
Scott Belsky: I'm trying to think of some offhand that have really struck me.
Scott Belsky：我正在尝试想出一些真正让我印象深刻的即兴想法。
But understanding the natural human tendencies of people, I think the laws of power talks about tons of wars over centuries and what sorts of natural human tendencies or inequalities drove massive rebellions and revolutions.
但了解了人们的自然倾向，我认为权力法则谈论了几个世纪以来的大量战争，以及什么样的人类自然倾向或不平等推动了大规模的叛乱和革命。
These sorts of insights, believe it or not, parlay into decisions we make in products and making people feel successful and productive.
不管你信不信，这些洞察力都会影响我们在产品中做出的决策，让人们感到成功和富有成效。
So I don't know.
所以我不知道。
I love those books just because I think that they remind us of the limitations and opportunities or possibilities of humanity.
我喜欢这些书只是因为我认为它们提醒我们人类的局限性和机会或可能性。
Lenny: What is a favorite recent movie or TV show?
莱尼：最近最喜欢的电影或电视节目是什么？
Scott Belsky: What I love is these documentaries about the cosmos and about the edge of our understanding of black holes and what happens out there in space.
斯科特·贝尔斯基：我喜欢的是这些关于宇宙、关于我们对黑洞以及太空中发生的事情的理解边缘的纪录片。
So I don't remember.
所以我不记得了。
I know one is called Cosmos on Netflix.
我知道 Netflix 上有一个叫 Cosmos。
There are a few of them.
其中有几个。
But in my downtime, I get lost in some series like that.
但在我休息的时候，我会迷失在这样的系列中。
Lenny: You have kids, one or more kids.
莱尼：你有孩子，一个或多个孩子。
Lenny: What are you doing to help them plan for this future?
莱尼：你正在做什么来帮助他们规划未来？
Scott Belsky: I think about this all the time.
斯科特·贝尔斯基：我一直在思考这个问题。
What are our children going to do in a world where if you believe Vinod Khosla's prediction that 80% of the work, of 80% of jobs will be replaced by AI, what will people do?
如果你相信维诺德·科斯拉 (Vinod Khosla) 的预测，即 80% 的工作、80% 的工作将被人工智能取代，那么我们的孩子将会做什么？
As we talked about their ingenuity will be unleashed, that's great.
正如我们谈到的，他们的聪明才智将得到释放，这太棒了。
But ultimately, I always revert back to this one belief that if people are passionate, they become successful in something.
但最终，我总是回到这一信念：如果人们充满热情，他们就会在某件事上取得成功。
Scott Belsky: So I've always just been focused on trying to make sure that they find something they're super passionate about.
Scott Belsky：所以我一直专注于确保他们找到他们超级热衷的东西。
And it doesn't even matter if the thing they find now is the thing they do later because I do believe that passion in itself and taking initiative on your passion is a muscle memory that once you develop it...
他们现在发现的事情是否是他们以后做的事情甚至并不重要，因为我确实相信激情本身和对你的激情采取主动是一种肌肉记忆，一旦你发展了它......
I have a daughter who loves horseback riding.
我有一个喜欢骑马的女儿。
I don't know if she's going to do horseback riding forever or whatever.
我不知道她是否会永远骑马还是其他什么。
But I think that the passion that she has for it, and this desire to be better and to constantly learn more and do more, that in itself is like a replicable muscle memory.
但我认为她对此的热情，以及这种变得更好、不断学习更多、做得更多的愿望，本身就像一种可复制的肌肉记忆。
So I don't know what the future holds, but I believe that passionate people will always have a path.
所以我不知道未来会怎样，但我相信有激情的人总会有路。
Lenny: Love that.
莱尼：喜欢这个。
What's a favorite interview question you like to ask when you're interviewing people?
当你面试别人时，你最喜欢问的面试问题是什么？
Scott Belsky: There's a real one, and there's a snarky one.
斯科特·贝尔斯基：有一个真实的，也有一个尖酸刻薄的。
So I do love trying to understand if people are introspective.
所以我确实喜欢尝试了解人们是否内省。
And so, I like asking about something people have learned about themselves that reveal the limitation in how they work.
因此，我喜欢询问人们对自己的了解，这些了解揭示了他们工作方式的局限性。
It's a way to test introspection.
这是测试内省的一种方法。
And once this person hits their limits or struggles, can they be open and introspective or are they going to blame and point fingers?
一旦这个人达到了极限或陷入困境，他们能否保持开放和内省，还是会指责和指责？
So I do ask that.
所以我确实这么问。
I also like the question, like, "Do you consider yourself lucky?" I think it's a fascinating question because also some people who are super insecure about where they are and how they got there and might decline admitting luck, those who are comfortable should admit that they were lucky, I mean, I think the truth is we're all very lucky and certainly privileged.
我也喜欢这个问题，比如“你认为自己幸运吗？”我认为这是一个有趣的问题，因为有些人对自己在哪里以及如何到达那里非常没有安全感，可能会拒绝承认运气，而那些感到舒服的人应该承认他们很幸运，我的意思是，我认为事实是我们都非常幸运并且当然很幸运。
And I just think that that's always an interesting conversation.
我只是认为这总是一个有趣的对话。
Lenny: What's a favorite reason product you've discovered, app or physical product?
Lenny：您发现的最喜欢的产品是什么，应用程序还是实体产品？
Anything that comes to mind?
有什么想到的吗？
Scott Belsky: I've been playing with a product called Queue.
Scott Belsky：我一直在玩一个名为 Queue 的产品。
And it's Q-U-E-U-E, I think.
我想，这就是 Q-U-E-U-E。
And it's basically a way to keep a queue of all of this content you want to watch across every streaming platform because there's so much content across so many streaming platforms and to make your own queue and then to see your friends queues and to see what content is in most of the people you know queues, it's actually an incredible graph of kind of stuff that people want to watch or have liked that I think we're going to need in this world where there is just a billion sources of content.
它基本上是一种在每个流媒体平台上保留您想观看的所有内容的队列的方法，因为在如此多的流媒体平台上有如此多的内容，并创建您自己的队列，然后查看您的朋友队列并查看您认识的大多数人队列中的内容，这实际上是人们想要观看或喜欢的内容的令人难以置信的图表，我认为在这个只有十亿内容源的世界中我们将需要它。
Lenny: I'm definitely going to check that out.
莱尼：我肯定会去看看。
I've been looking for an app like that of I'm sitting in the evening, "What the hell should I watch?" I've seen everything that exists on the internet.
我一直在寻找一款像我晚上坐着的应用程序，“我到底应该看什么？”我已经看过互联网上存在的一切。
So that's awesome.
所以这太棒了。
What's a favorite AI tool that you've recently discovered or find useful that isn't something Adobe has made?
您最近发现或发现有用但不是 Adobe 开发的最喜欢的 AI 工具是什么？
Scott Belsky: Okay.
斯科特·贝尔斯基：好的。
Well, I will mention if it's okay a product that I did invest in.
好吧，我会提到我投资的产品是否可以。
Scott Belsky: But it's a product called Tome.
Scott Belsky：但这是一种名为 Tome 的产品。
And they can take a narrative that you want to put into a presentation, and with AI basically create just a draft of this presentation with imagery and compelling points.
他们可以将你想要放入演示文稿中的叙述内容，通过人工智能基本上只创建包含图像和引人注目的要点的演示文稿草稿。
And it's almost as if you handed this off to an intern and said, "Come back to me with something I can work with." And suddenly, it's instantly there.
这几乎就像你把这个交给实习生并说：“带着我能用的东西回来找我。”突然之间，它就出现了。
So that's been like a fun one to play with.
所以这玩起来很有趣。
Lenny: I will check that out.
莱尼：我会检查一下。
We'll link to that.
我们将链接到该内容。
Also reminds me Kevin Kelly on Tim Ferriss was talking about how AI and ChatGPT is basically an intern.
也让我想起 Tim Ferriss 上的 Kevin Kelly 正在谈论 AI 和 ChatGPT 基本上是一个实习生。
That's like the level of their skill right now.
这就像他们现在的技能水平。
They're just this intern that's helping out with stuff.
他们只是一个帮忙做事的实习生。
Scott Belsky: I think that's right.
斯科特·贝尔斯基：我认为这是对的。
And that's why we have to see it as a resource but not a constraint because, again, it's answering that question like what would it look like if as opposed to doing true distinct thinking per se.
这就是为什么我们必须将其视为一种资源而不是一种约束，因为它再次回答了这个问题，比如它会是什么样子，而不是进行真正的独特思维本身。
Lenny: Scott, this is the first time we've ever chatted.
莱尼：斯科特，这是我们第一次聊天。
But I feel like I know you.
但我感觉我认识你。
You are wonderful.
你太棒了。
Thank you so much for being here.
非常感谢您来到这里。
Two final questions, where can folks find you online if they want to reach out, learn more?
最后两个问题，如果人们想要联系、了解更多信息，可以在哪里找到您？
And how can listeners be useful to you?
听众如何对你有用？
Scott Belsky: Yeah.
斯科特·贝尔斯基：是的。
No. Awesome.
不，太棒了。
Listen, thanks, Lenny.
听着，谢谢，莱尼。
And your podcasts and your emails are probably among my more forwarded pieces of nuggets and resources that I send to product teams I work with.
您的播客和电子邮件可能是我发送给与我合作的产品团队的更多转发的金块和资源。
So thank you for elevating the field for all of us, I should say.
所以我应该说，感谢您为我们所有人提升了这个领域。
And it's an honor to be on this podcast.
很荣幸能参加这个播客。
I'm easy to find, just scottbelsky.com or @scottbelsky on your favorite social network of choice.
我很容易找到，只需在您最喜欢的社交网络上输入 scottbelsky.com 或 @scottbelsky 即可。
And implications.com is where I'm writing these days.
这些天我写文章的地方就是impacts.com。
Scott Belsky: And then, you know what?
斯科特·贝尔斯基：然后，你知道吗？
I welcome folks to share what they're working on.
我欢迎大家分享他们正在做的事情。
I just love taking as much data points as possible.
我只是喜欢获取尽可能多的数据点。
I love connecting dots for people and making introductions.
我喜欢为人们连接点并进行介绍。
I feel like that can be a contribution to this whole world of better and better products, and I welcome you to reach out.
我觉得这可以为整个世界做出越来越好的产品贡献，我欢迎您与我们联系。
Lenny: Awesome.
莱尼：太棒了。
Scott, again, thank you for being here.
斯科特，再次感谢您来到这里。
Bye, everyone.: Thank you so much for listening.
再见，大家：非常感谢您的聆听。
If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcast, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.
如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcast、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。
Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.
另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。
You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.
您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。
See you in the next episode.
下一集见。