The hierarchy of engagement | Sarah Tavel (Benchmark, Greylock, Pinterest)

Sarah Tavel: I think a lot of people think about markets almost like these bodies of water, it's like it's this big body of water that we're going after.

莎拉·塔维尔（Sarah Tavel）：我认为很多人对市场的看法几乎就像这些水体一样，就好像我们正在追求的就是这么大的水体。

I actually think that the most interesting markets, you have to think of them like currents where you're there's something happening in the market that's creating this current where you can have a plank of wood that you've put on the river and it's going to pull you forward.

I actually think that the most interesting markets, you have to think of them like currents where you're there's something happening in the market that's creating this current where you can have a plank of wood that you've put on the river and it's going to pull you forward.

Versus a market that doesn't really have that momentum to it, you're going to have to build something really big and fancy to make any progress.

与一个没有真正动力的市场相比，你必须建立一些非常大和奇特的东西才能取得任何进展。

That's why we care less about market size because really, what you're looking for when you're looking at a market, are what are the dynamics of change, what's the current and momentum that's going to pull the company and make the job easier for the founders to actually build something that endures.

这就是为什么我们不太关心市场规模，因为实际上，当你关注市场时，你所寻找的是变化的动态，什么是能够拉动公司并使创始人更容易真正建立持久的东西的当前和动力。

Lenny: Today, my guest is Sarah Tavel.

莱尼：今天，我的客人是莎拉·塔维尔。

Sarah is a partner at Benchmark, one of the most preeminent venture capital funds in the world, where she focuses on investing in consumer and marketplace startups.

Sarah 是 Benchmark 的合伙人，Benchmark 是世界上最杰出的风险投资基金之一，她专注于投资消费者和市场初创公司。

Prior to Benchmark, Sarah was the first product manager at Pinterest.

在加入 Benchmark 之前，Sarah 是 Pinterest 的第一位产品经理。

And though I normally have a policy against VCs on the podcast, as you'll see, Sarah thinks very much like a product and growth leader.

尽管我通常在播客上有反对风险投资的政策，但正如你将看到的，莎拉的想法非常像产品和增长领导者。

And I always learn a ton talking to Sarah about startups and marketplaces.

我总是在与莎拉谈论初创公司和市场时学到很多东西。

We also learn in our conversation, she used to play rugby and was apparently one of the best tacklers in her league.

我们还在谈话中了解到，她曾经打过橄榄球，显然是她所在联盟中最好的截球手之一。

Lenny: In our conversation, we unpack two of Sarah's killer frameworks for building a startup.

莱尼：在我们的谈话中，我们解开了莎拉用于建立初创公司的两个杀手级框架。

One, the hierarchy of engagement, which is an incredibly useful lens for trying to figure out how to grow and scale your consumer startup.

一是参与度的层次结构，这是一个非常有用的视角，可以帮助你弄清楚如何发展和扩大你的消费者初创公司的规模。

And then, the hierarchy of marketplaces, which is an incredibly useful guide for helping you build your marketplace startup.

然后是市场层次结构，这是帮助您建立市场初创公司的非常有用的指南。

If you're building a consumer startup or a marketplace, this episode is for you.

如果您正在构建消费者初创公司或市场，那么本集适合您。

We get really nerdy and really deep, just the way I like it.

我们变得非常书呆子，非常深入，这正是我喜欢的方式。

With that, I bring you Sarah Tavel, after a short word from our sponsor.

在我们的赞助商简短发言后，我为您带来了莎拉·塔维尔 (Sarah Tavel)。

This entire episode is brought to you by Gelt, your gateway to smarter tax solutions.

整个剧集由 Gelt 为您带来，Gelt 是通往更智能税务解决方案的门户。

Navigating the world of taxes can be complicated and stressful.

驾驭税务世界可能是复杂且充满压力的。

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盖尔特的到来是为了改变这一现状。

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他们将先进技术与专业注册会计师知识相结合，轻松处理您的税务问题。

Whether you're a business owner, investor or executive, Gelt is here to optimize your tax strategy and enhance your financial success.

无论您是企业主、投资者还是高管，Gelt 都可以优化您的税务策略并提高您的财务成功。

People working at companies such as Notion, Google and Lip have already experienced the Gelt difference.

在 Notion、Google 和 Lip 等公司工作的人们已经体验到了 Gelt 的差异。

They've seen significant savings and a transformation in their tax handling.

他们看到了显着的节省和税收处理方式的转变。

And now, it's your turn.

现在，轮到你了。

Lenny: Why choose Gelt?

莱尼：为什么选择盖尔特？

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因为他们提供全年主动的税务规划以及清晰、快速的沟通。

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借助他们的技术，您将保持领先地位，充分利用每项税收优惠。

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准备好提升您的税务策略了吗？

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立即访问 joingelt.com/Lenny。

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有了 Gelt，您可以节省更多，减轻压力。

Again, that's joingelt.com/Lenny.

再说一遍，这是 joingelt.com/Lenny。

Join G-E-L-T.

加入 G-E-L-T。

com/Lenny.

com/莱尼。

Redefine your approach to taxes with Gelt.

使用 Gelt 重新定义您的税收方法。

Lenny: Sarah, thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast.

莱尼：莎拉，非常感谢你来到这里，欢迎来到播客。

Lenny: So you may or may not know this, but actually, normally have a policy of no VCs on the podcast.

莱尼：所以你可能知道也可能不知道这一点，但实际上，播客上通常有禁止风险投资的政策。

But you're a very special VC because you're a former product manager.

但你是一位非常特别的风险投资家，因为你是前产品经理。

Many people don't know you were the first product manager at Pinterest.

许多人不知道您是 Pinterest 的第一位产品经理。

To me, you still think like a product manager so I'm very excited to break my rule and have you on the podcast.

对我来说，你仍然像产品经理一样思考，所以我很高兴打破我的规则并让你加入播客。

Lenny: What I want to do with our time together is dig into two frameworks that you've developed and use with founders that you work with to help them build successful companies.

莱尼：我想利用我们在一起的时间深入研究您开发的两个框架，并与您合作的创始人一起使用它们来帮助他们建立成功的公司。

One is focused around customer businesses, and one marketplace businesses.

一种专注于客户业务，一种专注于市场业务。

Lenny: Let's just start with the first framework.

Lenny：让我们从第一个框架开始。

I think you call it the Hierarchy of Engagement.

我认为你称之为“参与层次”。

Just to start, could you maybe just share a broad overview of this framework?

首先，您能否分享一下这个框架的总体概述？

And also, just where it emerged from, where you came up with this concept?

而且，它是从哪里出现的，你是从哪里提出这个概念的？

Sarah Tavel: Sure.

莎拉·塔维尔：当然。

I think one thing you'll notice about me is that I have an allergic reaction to vanity metrics, what people talk about as vanity metrics.

我想你会注意到我的一件事是我对虚荣指标过敏，人们所说的虚荣指标。

When I made the transition from Pinterest, where I was leading product for the discovery team, so I was responsible for all the discovery surfaces on Pinterest.

当我从 Pinterest 转型时，我负责领导发现团队的产品，因此我负责 Pinterest 上的所有发现界面。

The home feed, the search, the recommendations, a couple other teams.

主页、搜索、推荐以及其他几个团队。

Ultimately, what those teams were about was about engagement, increasing engagement of Pinterest.

最终，这些团队的目标是提高 Pinterest 的参与度和参与度。

It was helping people, when they were on Pinterest, find something that they loved enough that they wanted to pin it to one of their boards.

当人们在 Pinterest 上时，它正在帮助他们找到他们足够喜欢的东西，以至于他们想将其固定在他们的板上。

Sarah Tavel: When I started to meet with all these really talented consumer founders building consumer social products, this was during a time when everybody was getting excited about growth hacking.

莎拉·塔维尔（Sarah Tavel）：当我开始与所有这些真正有才华的消费者创始人会面时，他们正在构建消费者社交产品，当时每个人都对增长黑客感到兴奋。

What you would see is that you would see all these founders coming in, and they all had these up and to the right graphs, whether it was sign-ups, or downloads, or MAUs.

你会看到的是，你会看到所有这些创始人进来，他们都有这些数据并显示在正确的图表上，无论是注册量、下载量还是月活跃用户数。

It felt to me like it wasn't obvious that those metrics that they were all getting very attached, and focused on, and showing in these presentations was the wrong thing to focus on.

在我看来，他们都非常重视和关注的那些指标并不明显，并且在这些演示中展示的这些指标是错误的关注点。

It didn't get to the heart of whether they were on the path to building enduring consumer social product.

它并没有触及他们是否正在打造持久的消费者社交产品的核心。

They were missing, at the core, the criticality of engagement.

他们从根本上忽视了参与的重要性。

Sarah Tavel: I just started to feel this and it became like a pebble in my shoe.

莎拉·塔维尔：我刚刚开始感觉到这一点，它就像我鞋子里的一块鹅卵石。

I started just to go through that process that you've gone through many times before of writing and distilling it, and that's where I came up with this hierarchy.

I started just to go through that process that you've gone through many times before of writing and distilling it, and that's where I came up with this hierarchy.

What you realize when you look at social products is that they're almost is this action which I call the core action of that product that forms the foundation of the product.

当您查看社交产品时，您会意识到它们几乎就是这个动作，我称之为该产品的核心动作，它构成了产品的基础。

When a user completes this action, it's clear that they both understand the utility of the product, they understand what that product is all about, and it's an action that, if they perform the action, they're very likely to come back.

当用户完成此操作时，很明显他们都了解该产品的实用性，他们了解该产品的全部内容，而且如果他们执行该操作，他们很可能会回来。

So for Facebook, the obvious action is friending, in the beginning days.

因此，对于 Facebook 来说，最开始的行动就是交友。

For Pinterest, it's pinning.

对于 Pinterest 来说，它是固定的。

I don't know if you're an Evernote user.

我不知道你是否是 Evernote 用户。

For Evernote, it's writing a note.

对于 Evernote 来说，它是写笔记。

When you perform that action, that means you're an engaged user.

当您执行该操作时，这意味着您是一名活跃用户。

Of course, there's a lot of other actions that you have to do.

当然，您还必须执行许多其他操作。

You can follow people on Pinterest, you comment on Facebook.

您可以在 Pinterest 上关注人们，也可以在 Facebook 上发表评论。

But the end of the day, if you're not doing that action, you're not really a user to the product.

但归根结底，如果您不执行该操作，那么您就不是该产品的真正用户。

That's why the MAU thing doesn't really mean anything.

这就是为什么 MAU 的事情实际上没有任何意义。

It's really looking at, I think, of users completing the core action.

我认为，它真正关注的是用户完成核心操作的情况。

You can look at this as a cohort, weekly, daily, whatever the right cadence is.

你可以将其视为一个队列，每周，每天，无论合适的节奏是什么。

But that's the foundation, that's level one.

但这是基础，这是第一级。

Lenny: Basically, there's some definition of an active user that a consumer business basically needs to define, and essential figure out what is that action they're taking that makes them an active user versus just opening up the app, or whatever it is.

莱尼：基本上，消费者企业基本上需要定义活跃用户的一些定义，并且必须弄清楚他们正在采取什么行动使他们成为活跃用户，而不是仅仅打开应用程序或其他什么。

For Snapchat, it might be sending a snap.

对于 Snapchat，它可能会发送快照。

Lenny: For What's App, it might be sending a message.

Lenny：对于What's App，它可能正在发送一条消息。

Okay, cool.

好吧，酷。

Sarah Tavel: Yes.

莎拉·塔维尔：是的。

Yes.

是的。

By the way, this action, it's very important to pick the right action.

顺便说一句，这个动作，选择正确的动作非常重要。

You want to make sure it's an action that scales to enough users.

您需要确保该操作能够扩展到足够多的用户。

You want to think about, "If I think about my product roadmap and optimize for it, what do we end up doing?"

你想要思考，“如果我考虑我的产品路线图并对其进行优化，我们最终会做什么？”

Sarah Tavel: Just to give you a more concrete example, actually in the early days of Pinterest, we weren't sure what it was.

Sarah Tavel：举个更具体的例子，实际上在 Pinterest 的早期，我们不确定它是什么。

We had all these things we were measuring.

我们有我们正在测量的所有这些东西。

We were measuring follows, we were measuring clicking through, liking something, pinning obviously, time on site.

我们测量了关注度、点击率、点赞率、固定率、网站停留时间。

We would do these experiments and you would get all this different data where some things would go up, some things would go down.

我们会做这些实验，你会得到所有这些不同的数据，其中有些数据会上升，有些数据会下降。

What were we optimizing for?

我们优化的目的是什么？

Sarah Tavel: There's something that's really, really important about having that clarity of this is the action that is most important for our product.

莎拉·塔维尔（Sarah Tavel）：对于我们的产品来说，明确这一点非常非常重要，那就是最重要的行动。

All things, our NUX has to lead to this.

所有的事情，我们的 NUX 都必须实现这一点。

If a user isn't doing this, then there's something missing from their experience of the product.

如果用户没有这样做，那么他们对产品的体验就会有所缺失。

It's super important to get real clarity and know exactly the one that you're going to be picking to go forward.

获得真正的清晰度并准确地了解您将选择继续前进的人是非常重要的。

Lenny: One more question along these lines.

莱尼：还有一个问题。

How do you think about this milestone versus the activation milestone for a new user?

您如何看待这个里程碑与新用户的激活里程碑？

Do you find they're often the same?

你发现它们经常是相同的吗？

Getting your user to that aha moment-

让你的用户恍然大悟——

Sarah Tavel: Right.

莎拉·塔维尔：对。

Part of it is how do you measure the success of your NUX, of the activation?

其中一部分是如何衡量 NUX 的激活是否成功？

To me, it is are you taking those new users and helping them understand the mental model of your product well enough that they start completing the core action.

对我来说，是你带领这些新用户并帮助他们充分理解你的产品的心理模型，以便他们开始完成核心操作。

Sarah Tavel: There was a NUCs once that we played with at Pinterest where we didn't even teach people what pinning was.

Sarah Tavel：我们曾经在 Pinterest 上玩过 NUC，但我们甚至没有教人们什么是固定。

It was their feed magically appeared and it was a real ...

这是他们的饲料神奇地出现了，这是一个真实的......

That was an example of okay, we have to help people understand that they are here to discover something and save it to their board.

这是一个很好的例子，我们必须帮助人们理解他们来这里是为了发现一些东西并将其保存到他们的板上。

Lenny: Just in case people don't know what NUX is, new user experience.

Lenny：以防万一人们不知道 NUX 是什么，新的用户体验。

It's just an acronym for new user experience.

它只是新用户体验的缩写。

Lenny: Okay.

莱尼：好的。

Maybe one more just foundational thing that I think we maybe skipped is what's the best way to think about using this framework?

也许我认为我们可能会跳过的另一件基础性的事情是考虑使用这个框架的最佳方法是什么？

Is this essentially where you should focus your energy, on which elements of your product you should be driving, which metrics to focus on?

这本质上是您应该集中精力的地方，您应该推动产品的哪些元素，应该关注哪些指标？

Is that a simple way to think about ...

这是一个简单的思考方式吗？

Basically, we've talked about layer one and there's three layers.

基本上，我们已经讨论了第一层，还有三层。

What's the best way to think about, as you're talking through this framework, of how to apply it and use it?

当您讨论这个框架时，思考如何应用和使用它的最佳方式是什么？

Sarah Tavel: In a way, you have to think holistically when you're building these consumer products, when you're designing it.

Sarah Tavel：在某种程度上，当你构建这些消费产品、设计它们时，你必须进行整体思考。

But I think it's very important, once you get the product out and you're starting to optimize, to start thinking through each of the levels.

但我认为非常重要的是，一旦你推出产品并开始优化，就开始思考每个级别。

That's just very focusing, to help a founder understand, "What are the levers that I really have to be focusing on to improve?"

这非常专注，可以帮助创始人理解“我真正需要关注哪些杠杆来改进？”

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

I want to come back to how to apply it, in maybe some examples, after we go through the three levels so I'll turn it back to you.

在我们完成这三个级别之后，我想回到如何应用它，也许在一些例子中，所以我会把它转回给你。

Sarah Tavel: Perfect.

莎拉·塔维尔：完美。

Let's say you're building your product and you're starting to see that you have users completing the core action.

假设您正在构建产品，并且开始看到用户完成了核心操作。

Then, the next challenge you have, and I've seen this many times before, is that then you have to figure out how to get those users to stick around.

然后，你面临的下一个挑战是，你必须弄清楚如何让这些用户留下来，我之前已经见过很多次了。

You want to retain those users.

您想保留这些用户。

Obviously, if they do the core action once or twice, and then they run out of steam, you're going to be in a really challenged position to build something that endures.

显然，如果他们做了一两次核心行动，然后就失去了动力，那么你将处于一个真正挑战的境地来构建持久的东西。

Sarah Tavel: The test for me, of whether you're building a product that has the ingredients to create a retentive product on a micro level, just at the user level, is that the product should get better the more you use it, and you'll have more to lose by leaving it.

莎拉·塔维尔：对我来说，要测试的是，你正在构建的产品是否具备在微观层面（仅在用户层面）创建保留性产品的要素，即产品应该随着你使用的次数而变得更好，而如果离开它，你会损失更多。

I'll give you a couple examples there, a couple of my favorite products.

我会给你几个例子，一些我最喜欢的产品。

Sarah Tavel: Obviously, Pinterest.

莎拉·塔维尔：显然，Pinterest。

One of the features that I worked on when I was at Pinterest and we shipped was this idea of a picked for you feed.

我在 Pinterest 时开发并交付的功能之一就是为您挑选 feed 的想法。

The idea was every time you pinned something to a board, we would take that information that the user gave us and use it to create recommendations in their home feed.

The idea was every time you pinned something to a board, we would take that information that the user gave us and use it to create recommendations in their home feed.

It may have been the first algorithmic feed that was in a social product because, suddenly your home feed wasn't just things and people that you followed.

它可能是社交产品中的第一个算法提要，因为突然间您的家庭提要不仅仅是您关注的事物和人。

The truth is, people weren't really following other people on Pinterest so we needed a way to make the experience get better the more you used it, so we started to do these recommendations in your home feed.

The truth is, people weren't really following other people on Pinterest so we needed a way to make the experience get better the more you used it, so we started to do these recommendations in your home feed.

Sarah Tavel: It was this experience that, the more you pinned, the more personalized your home feed got for you.

Sarah Tavel：正是这种体验，您固定的越多，您的家庭动态就越个性化。

Then, the more you pinned, you also had more to lose by leaving Pinterest because, all of a sudden, you had all your favorite books, articles you wanted to remember, the recipes that you were planning on cooking one day, the holiday planning that you were doing.

Then, the more you pinned, you also had more to lose by leaving Pinterest because, all of a sudden, you had all your favorite books, articles you wanted to remember, the recipes that you were planning on cooking one day, the holiday planning that you were doing.

So you wouldn't abandon Pinterest because Pinterest was this repository for these different expressions of your identity, or these different bookmarks that you wanted to back to.

因此，您不会放弃 Pinterest，因为 Pinterest 是您身份的不同表达方式或您想要返回的不同书签的存储库。

That was this idea.

就是这个想法。

It's very important that the core action is the thing that you use as the product to make the experience better over time.

非常重要的是，核心操作是您用作产品的东西，可以随着时间的推移让体验变得更好。

Sarah Tavel: Evernote, another example.

Sarah Tavel：Evernote，另一个例子。

I don't know if you're an Evernote user.

我不知道你是否是 Evernote 用户。

Lenny: No. I tried it once and it was way too complicated, and I gave up quickly.

莱尼：没有。我尝试过一次，太复杂了，很快就放弃了。

Sarah Tavel: People still laugh at me for being an Evernote user.

Sarah Tavel：人们仍然嘲笑我是 Evernote 用户。

Sarah Tavel: It's one of those things that I take all my notes in Evernote.

Sarah Tavel：这是我在 Evernote 中记下所有笔记的事情之一。

I dump documents in Evernote.

我将文档转储到 Evernote 中。

What I means is that, the more I use it ...

我的意思是，我用得越多...

Now I know that I can do a search in my Evernote and I'm going to find the document I'm looking for.

现在我知道我可以在 Evernote 中进行搜索，并且我将找到我要查找的文档。

Now, I can never leave Evernote.

现在，我永远无法离开 Evernote。

It has everything.

它拥有一切。

I have thousands and thousands of documents in Evernote.

我在 Evernote 中有成千上万的文档。

That's a product that's incredibly retentive.

这是一款具有令人难以置信的记忆力的产品。

Lenny: Unless someone builds a great exporter, and then there goes that piece of friction.

莱尼：除非有人建立了一个伟大的出口商，否则摩擦就会消失。

Sarah Tavel: People keep telling me I need to move on to Notion or something else, but not yet.

Sarah Tavel：人们一直告诉我需要转向 Notion 或其他领域，但目前还没有。

I will remain a dinosaur here.

我在这里仍将是恐龙。

Lenny: Wow.

莱尼：哇。

I love that that's an example of someone can break that barrier and make it less retentive, by making it easier to get off.

我喜欢这个例子，说明有人可以通过更容易摆脱障碍来打破障碍并降低记忆力。

Lenny: It's interesting growth strategy, basically.

莱尼：基本上，这是一个有趣的增长策略。

Sarah Tavel: Yes.

莎拉·塔维尔：是的。

Yeah, it's very true.

是的，这是非常正确的。

Let's say, now, you have a product, it's growing, more people are completing the core action.

比方说，现在你有了一个产品，它正在增长，更多的人正在完成核心操作。

When they complete that core action, the product gets more retentive for them.

当他们完成核心操作时，产品就会变得更容易被他们记住。

It gets better the more they use it, they have more to lose by leaving it.

他们用得越多，效果就越好，离开它就会失去更多。

Then, your tall task, and this is the hardest thing to overcome, is how do you make the product self-perpetuating?

那么，你的艰巨任务，也是最难克服的事情，是如何让产品自我延续？

This is where I love to think of every time a user users your product, let's say they're clicking on the mouse or they're tapping on their phone, I love to think of it as this kinetic energy that they're putting into your product.

This is where I love to think of every time a user users your product, let's say they're clicking on the mouse or they're tapping on their phone, I love to think of it as this kinetic energy that they're putting into your product.

You're taking that energy, and your job with a great product, is to take that energy and, as much as possible, convert it back to the experience that they're having with your product.

你正在利用这种能量，而你对优秀产品的工作就是利用这种能量，并尽可能地将其转化为他们对你的产品的体验。

Sarah Tavel: Now, the biggest thing that you can do is a network effect.

莎拉·塔维尔：现在，你能做的最重要的事情就是网络效应。

The more I pin something on Pinterest, the better the experience for every user on Pinterest.

我在 Pinterest 上钉的东西越多，Pinterest 上每个用户的体验就越好。

Every time I add a pin to a board, I'm creating a new edge in Pinterest Graph, that Pinterest then uses to create recommendations and enrich their understanding of all those objects on Pinterest.

Every time I add a pin to a board, I'm creating a new edge in Pinterest Graph, that Pinterest then uses to create recommendations and enrich their understanding of all those objects on Pinterest.

The network effect is the strongest thing that you can do.

网络效应是你能做的最强大的事情。

And obviously, if you have that, which all social products have to in some way, you have to spend time, as much as possible, just maximizing where that shows up, fine-tuning it, removing friction so that it's a flywheel that spins faster and faster.

显然，如果你拥有所有社交产品都必须以某种方式实现的功能，你就必须花费尽可能多的时间，最大限度地发挥它的作用，对其进行微调，消除摩擦，使其成为一个旋转得越来越快的飞轮。

Sarah Tavel: But, there's other loops too, that you have to identify and then maximize.

Sarah Tavel：但是，还有其他循环，您必须识别这些循环，然后将其最大化。

These are the growth and re-engagement loops.

这些是成长和重新参与循环。

These are classic loops, you talk about these a lot, they exist in marketplaces and social products.

这些是经典的循环，你经常谈论它们，它们存在于市场和社交产品中。

How do you get it so that, as your users use the product, they want to share it with other people?

如何才能让用户在使用产品时愿意与其他人分享？

They create metadata that you can then use for SEO.

他们创建元数据，然后您可以将其用于搜索引擎优化。

You have collaborative experiences that pull other people in.

您拥有吸引其他人的协作体验。

There's all different things you can do here.

您可以在这里做各种不同的事情。

And then, there's also things that you can do to re-engage a user.

然后，您还可以采取一些措施来重新吸引用户。

Sarah Tavel: As an example, in the early days of Pinterest, if you pinned something, you're pinning something that you found on Pinterest that somebody else pinned.

Sarah Tavel: As an example, in the early days of Pinterest, if you pinned something, you're pinning something that you found on Pinterest that somebody else pinned.

So we would send a push notification, "Hey, Lenny, Sarah just pinned your pin to her art board." Now, if you were a dormant user at that point, it's been a couple weeks since you'd used Pinterest, that notification might pull you back into Pinterest and be like, "Hey, I wonder what other pins Sarah has on her art board." It's a great re-engagement loop where Pinterest doesn't have to do anything there intentional.

因此，我们会发送推送通知，“嘿，莱尼，莎拉刚刚将您的图钉钉在了她的画板上。” Now, if you were a dormant user at that point, it's been a couple weeks since you'd used Pinterest, that notification might pull you back into Pinterest and be like, "Hey, I wonder what other pins Sarah has on her art board."这是一个很棒的重新参与循环，Pinterest 无需刻意做任何事情。

The user is creating the action that drives the outcome that Pinterest wants in that example.

在该示例中，用户正在创建驱动 Pinterest 想要的结果的操作。

Sarah Tavel: Now, as much as I love Evernote, this is a place where Evernote obviously falls down.

Sarah Tavel：现在，尽管我很喜欢 Evernote，但这显然是 Evernote 失败的地方。

There's no loops that they can take advantage of, that when I use the product, I make it better for you.

他们没有可以利用的循环，当我使用该产品时，我会为您提供更好的产品。

There's no loop where, when I use the product, I want to pull you into the product.

当我使用该产品时，我不会想把你拉入该产品。

They tried at some point, to do collaborative journals, it doesn't work.

他们在某个时候尝试过制作合作期刊，但行不通。

That's a place where, because of that, Evernote had to spend money to acquire users, they tapped out.

因此，Evernote 不得不花钱来获取用户，他们选择了这个地方。

They missed that level three.

他们错过了第三级。

Sarah Tavel: There's other examples I could speak to, of companies that weren't able to transcend to level three, that you wouldn't otherwise think.

Sarah Tavel: There's other examples I could speak to, of companies that weren't able to transcend to level three, that you wouldn't otherwise think.

I think of companies like Houseparty and Clubhouse.

我想到了像 Houseparty 和 Clubhouse 这样的公司。

What was interesting about both of those products is that you would think that the more users that came into Clubhouse or Houseparty, the faster the flywheel should spin.

What was interesting about both of those products is that you would think that the more users that came into Clubhouse or Houseparty, the faster the flywheel should spin.

But the challenge was that they relied on push notifications.

但挑战在于他们依赖推送通知。

I don't know if you had this experience, but let's take Houseparty as an example.

不知道你有没有这样的经历，我们以Houseparty为例。

You started to follow a lot of people on Houseparty, and then all of a sudden, your push notifications just got overwhelming.

您开始在 Houseparty 上关注很多人，然后突然间，您的推送通知变得势不可挡。

Because it was a realtime product, that you had to use push noti cations to know the moment to join the product, but when you had so many push notifications because the more people you followed, the more notifications you had, you just get to this point where you start ignoring them.

因为它是一个实时产品，所以你必须使用推送通知来知道加入该产品的时刻，但是当你有这么多推送通知时，因为你关注的人越多，你收到的通知就越多，你就会开始忽略它们。

It becomes this thing where, even though the flywheel should be spinning faster, it starts breaking down.

事情就变成这样了，尽管飞轮应该旋转得更快，但它却开始损坏。

That's the real tricky nuance in this level three.

这就是第三级中真正棘手的细微差别。

Lenny: I think people hearing this are going to be like, "Okay, getting people to use your product more often, increase retention, make it viral basically," it's stuff they already know.

莱尼：我认为人们听到这个会说，“好吧，让人们更频繁地使用你的产品，增加保留率，基本上使其病毒式传播，”这是他们已经知道的东西。

But I think what's powerful about this is this is just a lens, a clarifying lens on what is most important.

但我认为它的强大之处在于这只是一个镜头，一个澄清最重要的镜头。

There's so many things you can be focusing on to increase your product's success and help it grow.

您可以关注很多事情来提高产品的成功率并帮助其发展。

What I love here is just, "Here's the three most important things, and then here's the levels." They build on each other.

我喜欢这里的是，“这是最重要的三件事，然后是级别。”他们相互依存。

If you want to increase retention, get people to do the core action more often.

如果你想提高保留率，就让人们更频繁地执行核心操作。

If you want to help it grow, focus on helping it spread, self-perpetuate.

如果你想帮助它成长，就专注于帮助它传播、自我延续。

Sarah Tavel: Yeah, I know.

莎拉·塔维尔：是的，我知道。

That's absolutely right.

这是绝对正确的。

The importance of it is I can't emphasize enough how important focus is when you're building these companies.

其重要性在于，当你建立这些公司时，我无法充分强调专注的重要性。

It's so hard.

太难了。

There really isn't a playbook.

确实没有剧本。

Every company, the ones that succeed have to be fundamentally different from anything that was before it.

每家成功的公司都必须与之前的公司有根本的不同。

But there are these first principles of the ingredients that they all share, and you can use those ingredients to really focus you when you're going through the inevitable growth curve and wanting to know, "Well, how do we maximize this moment?

But there are these first principles of the ingredients that they all share, and you can use those ingredients to really focus you when you're going through the inevitable growth curve and wanting to know, "Well, how do we maximize this moment?

How do we really focus on the things that will set us most up for success?" That's where I think a framework like this can be really clarifying.

我们如何真正专注于最能让我们成功的事情？”这就是我认为这样的框架可以真正澄清的地方。

Lenny: There's a lot of depth behind each of these things that you're being modest about.

莱尼：你所谦虚的每件事背后都有很多深度。

One is, with the top of this pyramid of making it self-perpetuating, the reason that's really important is for a consumer app to work well most of the time, it has to be able to spread really cheaply.

One is, with the top of this pyramid of making it self-perpetuating, the reason that's really important is for a consumer app to work well most of the time, it has to be able to spread really cheaply.

The cost of acquisition needs to be very low, unless you somehow figure out some paid ad strategy where you can make money with paid ads, which is very rare.

The cost of acquisition needs to be very low, unless you somehow figure out some paid ad strategy where you can make money with paid ads, which is very rare.

So maybe speak to why that's so important to a consumer product.

那么也许可以谈谈为什么这对消费产品如此重要。

Sarah Tavel: Yeah.

莎拉·塔维尔：是的。

What are you trying to build with a consumer product?

您想用消费产品构建什么？

You're not trying to build something niche.

你并不是想创造一些利基市场的东西。

You want to build something that can be a mass-market, hundreds of millions of users, billions of users.

你想要建立一个可以成为大众市场、数亿用户、数十亿用户的东西。

It would take considerable capital to do that with marketing.

通过营销来做到这一点需要大量资金。

There's one example that we have so far, which is TikTok, of spending more than $1 billion, once they figured out actually the first two levels in order to grow.

There's one example that we have so far, which is TikTok, of spending more than $1 billion, once they figured out actually the first two levels in order to grow.

They didn't actually put user acquisition spend behind TikTok until they had a product that was retentive, and then they know that they really wanted to maximize that.

They didn't actually put user acquisition spend behind TikTok until they had a product that was retentive, and then they know that they really wanted to maximize that.

But every other social product has grown organically.

但其他所有社交产品都在有机增长。

They've been able to do so because they've figured out how to maximize these loops.

他们之所以能够做到这一点，是因为他们已经找到了如何最大化这些循环。

Even TikTok got to millions over users before they spent all the capital to acquire those remaining users.

就连 TikTok 也已经拥有了数百万用户，然后才花掉所有的资本来获取剩余的用户。

Lenny: I didn't know that number.

莱尼：我不知道那个号码。

TikTok spent $1 billion on paid ads-

TikTok在付费广告上花费了10亿美元——

Lenny: To get to where they are today?

莱尼：为了达到今天的水平？

Lenny: I knew it was many millions, but I didn't realize it was $1 billion.

莱尼：我知道有数百万美元，但我没有意识到这是 10 亿美元。

Lenny: That just shows you how hard it is to break in and become a new social network, essentially, or a new social app.

莱尼：这只是向你展示了闯入并成为一个新的社交网络（本质上）或一个新的社交应用程序是多么困难。

Sarah Tavel: It is hard.

莎拉·塔维尔：这很难。

And then, at the same time though, we do see exceptions to it where I still feel like consumers are hungry for new experiences.

但与此同时，我们确实看到了例外，我仍然觉得消费者渴望新体验。

We've seen a couple over the last few years that have gone into tens of millions of users.

在过去的几年里，我们看到一些已经拥有了数千万用户。

Nothing that has really created the experience that's sticky enough to pull minutes away from, really TikTok and Instagram, which just are these dominant forces right now.

没有什么能真正创造出粘性足以让人们远离几分钟的体验，尤其是 TikTok 和 Instagram，它们目前正是这些主导力量。

Lenny: Your message also reminded me of a recent guest post on my newsletter about this app Saturn, I don't know if you read it.

Lenny：你的留言还让我想起了我的时事通讯上最近一篇关于土星这个应用程序的客座帖子，我不知道你是否读过它。

Sarah Tavel: Oh, I didn't.

莎拉·塔维尔：哦，我没有。

But I know of the app, and it's just an awesome founder.

但我知道这个应用程序，而且它的创始人很棒。

Lenny: Yeah.

莱尼：是的。

It was really interesting.

这真的很有趣。

They had a really interesting insight about, first of all, very few apps ever make it to the top of the app store that break through what's already there.

他们有一个非常有趣的见解，首先，很少有应用程序能够突破现有的应用程序，登上应用程序商店的榜首。

The ones that do almost always spend a few days there and then, are gone because it's a one shot thing.

那些几乎总是在那里呆上几天的人就消失了，因为这是一次性的事情。

What they basically talked about is many apps have this viral K-factor, where they spread like crazy, everyone starts using them, everyone's in there.

他们基本上谈论的是许多应用程序都有这种病毒式 K 因素，它们疯狂传播，每个人都开始使用它们，每个人都在那里。

But then the opposite happens very quickly, too, where if a few people miss using it a few days, you go in there and it's, "Oh, nothing's happening here anymore," and it quickly crumbles.

但相反的情况也会很快发生，如果有几个人几天没有使用它，你走进去就会发现，“哦，这里什么也没发生了”，它很快就会崩溃。

Clubhouse essentially went through this, BeReal started go through this, where people stopped posting and then, "All right, forget this.

Clubhouse 基本上经历了这个，BeReal 开始经历这个，人们停止发帖，然后，“好吧，忘了这个。

Everyone's gone." Most apps have this destructive K-factor that kicks in, the same way it kicked in to get it to spread.

人都走了。”大多数应用程序都具有这种破坏性的 K 因素，就像它开始传播一样。

Sarah Tavel: Yes.

莎拉·塔维尔：是的。

As people say, when something grows really quickly, it also can collapse really quickly.

正如人们所说，当某物增长得很快时，它也会很快崩溃。

Lenny: Yeah.

莱尼：是的。

Tough.

艰难的。

I guess along those lines, is there anything you've seen or learned ...

我想沿着这些思路，你是否看到或学到了什么......

The idea of this framework is to avoid that, essentially.

该框架的想法本质上是避免这种情况。

But I guess, is there anything comes to mind to avoid that?

但我想，有什么办法可以避免这种情况吗？

Sarah Tavel: One other thing that I've seen that runs into a challenge, and I find it runs into a challenge particularly with level two, is anonymity.

莎拉·塔维尔（Sarah Tavel）：我看到的另一件事遇到了挑战，我发现它遇到了挑战，特别是在第二级，那就是匿名。

Anonymity is something where ...

匿名是...

Pseudo-anonymity and anonymity are very different concepts.

伪匿名和匿名是非常不同的概念。

With pseudo-anonymity, we have it on Twitter, you have it on Reddit.

通过伪匿名，我们在 Twitter 上有它，你在 Reddit 上也有它。

You have a persistent identity that you're creating, and that identity then can have accruing benefits, mounting loss.

您正在创建一个持久的身份，然后该身份可能会带来累积的好处，但也会带来越来越大的损失。

My pseudo-anonymous account on Twitter that just flames other VCs ...

我在推特上的伪匿名账户激怒了其他风险投资人……

I'm just kidding.

我只是开玩笑。

Sarah Tavel: I'm not funny enough to make something like that.

莎拉·塔维尔（Sarah Tavel）：我还不够有趣，无法做出这样的事情。

But for the people who do have it, they get accruing benefits because they get people to follow them.

但对于那些拥有它的人来说，他们获得了累积的好处，因为他们让人们追随他们。

And that's the mounting loss too, where they've grown their identity on a platform even though it's a pseudo-anonymous identity.

这也是越来越大的损失，因为他们在平台上发展了自己的身份，尽管它是一个伪匿名身份。

The challenge when you have pure anonymity is that you don't have that accruing benefit or mounting loss that happens.

当您完全匿名时，面临的挑战是您不会获得随之而来的累积收益或不断增加的损失。

Sarah Tavel: I don't know if you ever played with Secret, but it's similar to TikTok or something like that.

Sarah Tavel：我不知道你是否玩过 Secret，但它类似于 TikTok 或类似的东西。

These are the types of experiences where, over time ...

随着时间的推移，这些体验类型......

The network effect doesn't work because the anonymity creates the conditions for bad behavior, so that starts to pull down the community.

网络效应不起作用，因为匿名为不良行为创造了条件，从而开始破坏社区。

And then, it is also the experience where you'd use a product and you can delete, and then come back three months later, and because of the anonymity aspect of it, your experience isn't any different.

然后，这也是您使用产品并且可以删除然后在三个月后回来的体验，并且由于它的匿名性，您的体验没有任何不同。

I find anonymity, people keep trying it, and super talented founders keep hitting their head against that wall because it has the very early fun growth, but it just continues to be a product that isn't able to persist without some persistent identity.

我发现匿名，人们不断尝试，超级有才华的创始人不断地用头撞墙，因为它有非常早期的有趣增长，但它仍然是一个如果没有一些持久的身份就无法持续存在的产品。

Lenny: I'm going to pull on this thread of just ways to increase retention.

莱尼：我将探讨如何提高保留率。

Basically, this is one of the things, maybe the main thing you're telling people to help increase retention, make it so that it's really hard to leave.

基本上，这是你告诉人们帮助提高保留率的事情之一，也许是主要的事情，让它变得很难离开。

Before we get there, just to make it clear, is this framework mostly for social consumer products, or do you generalize it to consumer products?

在我们开始之前，先澄清一下，这个框架主要是针对社交消费品的，还是将其推广到消费品？

Sarah Tavel: I think it's consumer products in general.

莎拉·塔维尔：我认为这是一般消费品。

Sarah Tavel: But it makes the most sense for consumer social.

莎拉·塔维尔：但这对于消费者社交来说最有意义。

Sarah Tavel: It works for Evernote.

Sarah Tavel：它适用于 Evernote。

Evernote isn't a consumer social product.

Evernote 不是一款消费者社交产品。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

Okay, so it's most helpful for if you're the social, your friends are in it sort of product?

好的，如果您是社交人士，您的朋友都在使用这种产品，那么这对您最有帮助吗？

Sarah Tavel: Right.

莎拉·塔维尔：对。

You have the chance of level three with social.

你有机会达到社交三级。

Lenny: Right, awesome.

莱尼：对，太棒了。

Okay.

好的。

On this thread of retention, it's a thing that I speak about often, everyone always talks about.

关于留存这个话题，是我经常讲的，大家也经常讲的。

The most important thing you got to get right is get retention to a good place because if you can't retain people, nothing's going to work anyway.

你要做的最重要的事情就是把员工留住到一个好的地方，因为如果你留不住人，无论如何都不会起作用。

Lenny: So just to spend a little more time here, is there anything else you recommend to founders to help them with increasing retention and getting to a healthy place with retention?

莱尼：那么，在这里多花一点时间，您是否有其他建议向创始人推荐，以帮助他们提高留存率，并在留存率方面达到健康的水平？

Sarah Tavel: Number one is actually measuring it.

莎拉·塔维尔：第一是实际测量它。

I can't tell you how many times I suggest to a founder to track cohorts and that's a new thing.

我无法告诉你有多少次我建议创始人跟踪同类人群，这是一件新鲜事。

Just being really, really clear and intellectually honest on looking at cohorts I think is number one.

我认为，在观察群体时要非常非常清晰和理智诚实，这是第一要务。

Lenny: Okay, maybe just describe that briefly, and then we'll link to an article that I have about how to do that.

莱尼：好的，也许只是简单地描述一下，然后我们将链接到我有一篇关于如何做到这一点的文章。

Sarah Tavel: Perfect.

莎拉·塔维尔：完美。

These are the moments when I should probably turn the mic over to you, to talk about-

这些时候我可能应该把麦克风交给你，谈论——

Sarah Tavel: .

莎拉·塔维尔：。

A cohort, what I always like to look at is weekly cohorts for these products.

队列，我总是喜欢查看这些产品的每周队列。

You look at them in two ways.

你以两种方式看待它们。

Which is one, for each vintage of cohorts, you're looking at a group of people who signed up in a given week, and that's one.

对于每个群体的年份，你会看到一组在给定的一周内注册的人，这就是其中之一。

Sarah Tavel: ...

莎拉·塔维尔：...

like a group of people who signed up in a given week and that's one cohort.

就像在某一周内注册的一群人，这就是一个队列。

You look at it both on an active user basis, like are those people continuing to come back to the product?

你会从活跃用户的角度来看待它，比如这些人是否会继续使用该产品？

And I particularly love to look at that on a weekly active user completing the core action pieces of like, are users completing the core action?

我特别喜欢观察每周活跃用户完成核心操作的情况，例如，用户是否完成了核心操作？

How is that changing overtime for each of the cohorts?

每个群体的加班时间有何变化？

And then also, looking at activity level within those cohorts.

然后还要观察这些群体内的活动水平。

And so, what you love to see is the kind of classic smile graph where, as the network grows and users start to use the product more and more, you start to see that, overtime, they actually become more retained in the product as opposed to kind of the classic leaky bucket where the cohort just keeps on dwindling down.

因此，你喜欢看到的是那种经典的微笑图，随着网络的发展和用户开始越来越多地使用产品，你开始看到，随着时间的推移，他们实际上会更多地保留在产品中，而不是那种经典的漏桶，队列不断减少。

And until you reach a point with your cohorts where there is a plateau, you have more work to do on figuring out the retention of your users.

在您的群组达到一个稳定点之前，您需要做更多的工作来确定用户的保留率。

Sarah Tavel: The second thing is just focus.

莎拉·塔维尔：第二件事就是专注。

So I can't tell you how how many times also you'll meet a founder and they will...

所以我无法告诉你你会见到创始人多少次，他们会......

There was one example I saw, it was a kind of a dating app, friend making app, and he was growing it via TikTok, which is not geographically constrained at all.

我看到一个例子，它是一种约会应用程序、交友应用程序，他通过 TikTok 来发展它，完全不受地域限制。

And so, he's growing the user numbers, but without focusing on a specific geography, it's gonna be really difficult to make that type of product a high retention product.

因此，他正在增加用户数量，但如果不专注于特定地理位置，就很难使此类产品成为高保留率产品。

Lenny: Coming back to the framework, which layer do you find most often is the one founders maybe are under-investing in/maybe the most important to focus on if you had to pick one of these, or is it super dependent on your situation?

Lenny：回到框架，您最常发现哪一层是创始人可能投资不足的一层/如果您必须选择其中一层，那么可能是最需要关注的一层，或者它是否超级依赖于您的情况？

Sarah Tavel: What I often feel is that, a lot of times, product founders, consumer founders, see where they want to get to, they compare themselves to the full expression of a product that you see with other products, ROBLOX, Instagram, TikTok, whatever it may be, and they want to get there.

Sarah Tavel：我经常感觉到的是，很多时候，产品创始人、消费者创始人看到他们想要达到的目标，他们将自己与其他产品（ROBLOX、Instagram、TikTok，无论是什么）的完整表达进行比较，他们希望达到目标。

Sarah Tavel: But what that ends up meaning when the when a new user signs up is that there's too much in the beginning to to take in and understand, and you don't then have a very focused product that gets the user to the thing that you most want them to do.

莎拉·塔维尔（Sarah Tavel）：但是，当新用户注册时，这最终意味着一开始有太多的东西需要接受和理解，然后你就没有一个非常专注的产品来让用户做你最希望他们做的事情。

And that's actually part of the importance of understanding level one, what your core action is, is that you want to make sure that when a user comes to your product, signs up for the first time, doesn't have necessarily a lot of contacts on what the product is itself, that they see the thing that they're supposed to do and you get them to do it.

这实际上是理解第一级的重要性的一部分，你的核心行动是什么，是你要确保当用户第一次使用你的产品时，第一次注册，不一定对产品本身有很多接触，他们看到他们应该做的事情，你让他们去做。

And a lot of times, in the beginning, there are just so many other things that a product might have that you're defusing that attention that they would otherwise have had on the on the thing that's most important.

很多时候，一开始，产品可能还有很多其他的东西，以至于你分散了他们原本会关注最重要的东西的注意力。

Sarah Tavel: And so, I feel that that's the first mistake, and it's kind of natural that it would be the first mistake, but maybe the largest mistake that I see people make.

莎拉·塔维尔：所以，我觉得这是第一个错误，这是很自然的，这将是第一个错误，但也许是我看到人们犯的最大错误。

Lenny: Essentially, not getting the activation moment right, not focusing enough on getting people to that aha moment as people describe, and then again, that repeating again and again as a core action.

莱尼：本质上，没有得到正确的激活时刻，没有足够专注于让人们达到人们所描述的顿悟时刻，然后再一次，作为核心行动不断重复。

Lenny: To close the loop on this sort of discussion, could you just share again a few examples of core actions/activation moments, just to make this fresh again in people's minds?

莱尼：为了结束这种讨论，您能否再次分享一些核心行动/激活时刻的例子，让人们再次记住这一点？

And then also, just whatever you could share about helping people decide what that is.

然后，无论你能分享什么，帮助人们决定那是什么。

I know it's a difficult thing to do well, but any advice for how to find that activation?

我知道这很难做好，但是对于如何找到激活有什么建议吗？

Sarah Tavel: I mean, I'll tell you the exercise that we did at Pinterest because as I mentioned before, it wasn't obvious to us in the beginning of Pinterest like were we a social network?

Sarah Tavel：我的意思是，我会告诉你我们在 Pinterest 所做的练习，因为正如我之前提到的，在 Pinterest 之初，我们并不明显，就像我们是一个社交网络一样？

Like should we optimize for the follow graph?

就像我们应该针对下图进行优化吗？

But you have to remember, Pinterest, this was 2011, you had Twitter growing like crazy, Instagram was growing.

但你必须记住，Pinterest，这是 2011 年，Twitter 疯狂增长，Instagram 也在增长。

Those were both asymmetrical follow graphs that they were creating, right?

这些都是他们创建的不对称跟随图，对吧？

And so, it wasn't clear at the time whether Pinterest was actually just creating a new follow graph, but that was about things instead of what Twitter was or what Instagram was.

因此，当时还不清楚 Pinterest 是否真的只是在创建一个新的关注图，但那是关于事物的，而不是 Twitter 或 Instagram 是什么。

And so, it wasn't obvious.

所以，这并不明显。

Sarah Tavel: And what happened actually is that there was two efforts that I think of as like kind of bottoms-up and top-down that helped really clarify that, actually, pinning something was the core action, it was going to be our North Star.

莎拉·塔维尔：实际上发生的事情是，我认为有两种类似自下而上和自上而下的努力，这有助于真正澄清这一点，实际上，固定某些东西是核心行动，它将成为我们的北极星。

We called it weekly active pinners.

我们称之为每周活跃钉钉者。

Sarah Tavel: And the two things were, there's always this like bottoms-up analysis that you do, which is, we looked at every action that you could do on Pinterest, so we had liking, following, clicking through, time on site, pinning, repinning.

莎拉·塔维尔：这两件事是，你总是做自下而上的分析，也就是说，我们研究了你在 Pinterest 上可以做的每一个动作，所以我们有喜欢、关注、点击、网站停留时间、固定、重新固定。

And we looked at, first of all, what percentage of users complete those actions?

首先，我们研究了完成这些操作的用户百分比是多少？

And if you do that action in a week, what's your propensity to come back the following week?

如果您在一周内执行该操作，您下周回来的倾向是什么？

And we basically ranked that.

我们基本上对此进行了排名。

Sarah Tavel: And what we saw was that if you pinned something, repinned something, which is finding something on Pinterest, I'm using those synonymously, or click through, you had an incredibly high probability that you would come back.

莎拉·塔维尔（Sarah Tavel）：我们看到的是，如果你钉住了一些东西，重新钉住了一些东西，也就是在 Pinterest 上找到了一些东西，我用这些同义词，或者点击浏览，你回来的可能性非常高。

So if someone's pinning something, they're coming back to Pinterest the next week with a super high, more than 90% probability at the time.

因此，如果有人固定了某些内容，他们下周就会以极高的概率（当时超过 90%）回到 Pinterest。

Sarah Tavel: And then there's like the top-down way of thinking about it, which is, well, what is Pinterest for?

莎拉·塔维尔：还有一种自上而下的思考方式，那就是 Pinterest 的用途是什么？

And if a user does come to Pinterest and they never add something to a board, do they really understand what Pinterest is?

如果用户确实来到 Pinterest 并且他们从未在板上添加任何内容，那么他​​们真的了解 Pinterest 是什么吗？

And yes, clicking through makes you want to save it.

是的，点击浏览会让你想要保存它。

The click through is valuable, you want save it, so clicking through is obviously really important.

点击率很有价值，你想保存它，所以点击率显然非常重要。

But at the end of the day, if they don't like that pin enough that they want to save it themselves to their board, then we haven't done our job.

但归根结底，如果他们不太喜欢这个图钉，以至于想将其保存到自己的板上，那么我们就没有完成我们的工作。

Sarah Tavel: And so, we did this kind of top down, bottoms up analysis to make it very clear that when we launch an experiment or launch a new feature, if the probability, if the percentage of people that pin something doesn't go up, or the number of pins for that cohort doesn't go up, that experiment is not a a successful experiment.

Sarah Tavel：因此，我们进行了这种自上而下、自下而上的分析，以便非常清楚地表明，当我们启动一项实验或推出一项新功能时，如果固定某物的人数百分比没有上升，或者该群体的固定数量没有上升，那么该实验就不是一个成功的实验。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

There's a post I'll link to in the show notes where there's actually a guide to doing this regression analysis on how to figure out your activation milestone.

我将在展示笔记中链接到一篇文章，其中实际上有一个关于如何找出激活里程碑进行回归分析的指南。

Lenny: Basically, what is most causal of retention as you're describing.

莱尼：基本上，正如您所描述的，造成保留的最主要原因是什么。

And I love this example from Pinterest.

我喜欢 Pinterest 上的这个例子。

Any other just examples?

还有其他例子吗？

Again, you shared a few at the beginning of just examples of great activation milestones/core user actions.

同样，您在开头分享了一些出色的激活里程碑/核心用户操作的示例。

Sarah Tavel: I'll tell you one other one that I thought was super interesting, which is that when I initially published this post, I had assumed wrongly that YouTube's core action was watching a video.

Sarah Tavel：我会告诉你另一个我认为非常有趣的事情，那就是当我最初发表这篇文章时，我错误地认为 YouTube 的核心行为是观看视频。

And then Shishir Mehrotra, who was the kind of CPO of YouTube, he reached out to me and he said, "That's what it was in the early days, but we started to realize that it wasn't actually our core action.

然后 Shishir Mehrotra（YouTube 的 CPO）联系了我，他说：“早期就是这样，但我们开始意识到这实际上并不是我们的核心行动。

And we did a lot of analysis on YouTube and what we realized was that subscribing was the core action on YouTube."

我们在 YouTube 上做了很多分析，我们意识到订阅是 YouTube 上的核心行为。”

Sarah Tavel: And it makes so much sense when he said it, right?

莎拉·塔维尔：他说的很有意义，对吧？

You're a creator, you're uploading content onto YouTube, there are a lot of other places at that time that you could have uploaded that content to, but you care about YouTube because that's where you're growing your audience, right?

您是一名创作者，您正在将内容上传到 YouTube，当时您可以将该内容上传到很多其他地方，但您关心 YouTube，因为那是您增长受众的地方，对吗？

And so, the more people that subscribe to your content on YouTube, the more you have the accruing benefits and mounting loss of using YouTube.

因此，在 YouTube 上订阅您的内容的人越多，您从使用 YouTube 中获得的好处就越多，损失也就越多。

Sarah Tavel: And so, that was super important on the creator side, which, one of the funny things that will bridge to our next conversation is that all social products are really marketplaces, right?

莎拉·塔维尔：所以，这对创作者来说非常重要，其中一个有趣的事情将连接到我们的下一次对话，那就是所有社交产品实际上都是市场，对吗？

YouTube is a marketplace.

YouTube 是一个市场。

You have the creators uploading content and the viewers who are watching it, supply and demand.

你有上传内容的创作者和正在观看内容的观众，供应和需求。

Sarah Tavel: And so then, the subscribe button is also very interesting because then from the demand side, the viewer, why would I come back to YouTube consistently versus, again, all the other places I could spend time on if it weren't for me having found creators for whom their content really resonates with me so much so that I subscribe to their content?

莎拉·塔维尔：那么，订阅按钮也非常有趣，因为从需求方、观众的角度来看，如果不是我找到了创作者，他们的内容真正引起了我的共鸣，以至于我订阅了他们的内容，为什么我会一直回到 YouTube，而不是所有其他我可以花时间的地方？

Sarah Tavel: And so, I loved that example because it showed a little bit the evolution that can happen with these companies, but then also, just the beauty of like you know you've got something really right with the core action when it's helping both sides of your network.

莎拉·塔维尔：所以，我喜欢这个例子，因为它展示了这些公司可能发生的一些演变，但同时，当你知道你的核心行动在帮助你的网络双方时，你的核心行动确实是正确的，这是一种美妙的感觉。

Lenny: Awesome example.

莱尼：很棒的例子。

And I think it's also a good reminder people change these things.

我认为这也是一个很好的提醒人们改变这些事情。

"You come up with your best bet.

“你想出了最好的选择。

Okay, we tried this for six months, maybe let's try something else.

好的，我们尝试了六个月，也许我们可以尝试其他方法。

We've learned something new."

我们学到了一些新东西。”

Lenny: I'm also going to link to this post I wrote around finding your North Star metric, which was like such a multimedia conversation with just links for all these topics to go deeper.

莱尼：我还将链接到我围绕寻找北极星指标撰写的这篇文章，这就像一个多媒体对话，只有所有这些主题的链接才能更深入。

Essentially, I figured out the North Star metric for, I don't know, 30 companies.

本质上，我计算出了 30 家公司的北极星指标，我不知道。

And I feel like the North Star metric of a company ends up often being this core user action.

我觉得一家公司的北极星指标最终往往是核心用户行为。

So like Pinterest, it sounds like those WAPs, weekly active pinners.

就像 Pinterest 一样，它听起来就像那些 WAP，即每周活跃的钉钉者。

Sarah Tavel: In the beginning we called it weekly active repinners and war because we felt like we were at war, so it was good.

莎拉·塔维尔（Sarah Tavel）：一开始，我们称其为每周活跃评论者和战争，因为我们感觉我们正处于战争之中，所以这很好。

Lenny: And then, it became peacetime maybe.

莱尼：然后，也许就变成了和平时期。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

So maybe just to close the thread on this framework, can you just briefly summarize who this is most helpful for and just how they could apply it if they're maybe not growing as fast as they want or they're just getting started as a founder building a consumer product?

因此，也许只是为了结束这个框架的主题，您能否简要总结一下这对谁最有帮助，以及如果他们可能没有像他们想要的那样快速增长，或者他们刚刚开始作为创始人构建消费产品，那么他们如何应用它？

Sarah Tavel: Yeah, I think about consumer founders, product founders, product leaders in these companies that are thinking through the road map.

莎拉·塔维尔：是的，我想到了这些公司中正在思考路线图的消费者创始人、产品创始人和产品领导者。

What is the most important things that they need to prioritize, the big rocks, for the immediate short-term?

短期内他们需要优先考虑的最重要的事情是什么？

And the framework then provides a lens on what to prioritize.

然后，该框架提供了一个关于优先考虑事项的镜头。

Lenny: And we'll link to the whole framework for people that want to go deeper.

Lenny：我们将为想要深入了解的人提供整个框架的链接。

Lenny: Okay, so let's move on to your second framework that you called the hierarchy of marketplaces.

莱尼：好的，让我们继续讨论您称之为市场层次结构的第二个框架。

And first of all, I want to give a shout-out to Mike Williams, who's the founder of Everything Marketplaces, who gave me a bunch of good question suggestions to ask as we do this.

首先，我想向 Everything Marketplaces 的创始人 Mike Williams 表示感谢，在我们这样做时，他给了我很多很好的问题建议。

Lenny: Okay, so let's start with the same question, just what's kind of the broad way to think about what this framework is and who it's for?

Lenny：好的，让我们从同样的问题开始，思考这个框架是什么以及它是为谁服务的广泛方式是什么？

And then, where did it come from?

那么，它是从哪里来的呢？

Sarah Tavel: It's a framework or hierarchy that is for marketplace founders.

Sarah Tavel：这是一个针对市场创始人的框架或层次结构。

It could actually be B2BC or B2C, or marketplace product leaders that are like either getting started or scaling their marketplace and helping kind of prioritize and focus on the things that most matter.

它实际上可能是 B2BC 或 B2C，或者是市场产品领导者，他们要么开始起步，要么扩展他们的市场，并帮助确定优先顺序并专注于最重要的事情。

Sarah Tavel: And it came out of a similar reaction, a very similar parallel to what I was experiencing, meaning, all these consumer social founders.

莎拉·塔维尔：这是出于类似的反应，与我所经历的非常相似，也就是说，所有这些消费者社交创始人。

Like they would talk about MAUs and I just felt like it didn't get to the heart of whether they were building enduring value.

就像他们会谈论月活跃用户一样，我只是觉得这并没有触及他们是否正在创造持久价值的核心。

And I actually started to realize that GMV was very similar.

我实际上开始意识到 GMV 非常相似。

GMV, it's a metric that it seems like...

GMV，这个指标看起来像是......

Of course, you can't build a marketplace without growing GMV in the same way that you can't build a social product without growing MAUs.

当然，如果不增加 GMV，就无法建立市场，就像如果不增加 MAU，就无法建立社交产品一样。

But if you focus, if the race that you think you're running is to grow MAUs or to grow GMV, you're not actually going to run the right race.

但如果你专注于，如果你认为你正在参加的比赛是为了增加月活跃用户数或增加 GMV，那么你实际上并没有参加正确的比赛。

It can take you...

它可以带你...

Sarah Tavel: And actually, with marketplace, very interestingly, it can take you in the wrong direction.

莎拉·塔维尔：实际上，非常有趣的是，对于市场来说，它可能会把你带向错误的方向。

So what would happen is I would meet all these founders and everybody got fixated on this milestone of $1,000,000 of GMV.

因此，我会见到所有这些创始人，每个人都专注于 1,000,000 美元 GMV 的里程碑。

Right.

正确的。

And I think a lot of people started to feel like if you could hit $1,000,000 of annualized GMV, it means you're ready for your Series A.

我认为很多人开始觉得，如果你的年化 GMV 能够达到 1,000,000 美元，这意味着你已经为 A 轮融资做好了准备。

But it's kind of self-evident that not all GMV is created equal, right?

但不言而喻的是，并不是所有的 GMV 都是一样的，对吧？

Sarah Tavel: So imagine a food delivery company 10 years ago.

Sarah Tavel：想象一下 10 年前的一家食品配送公司。

You could have $1,000,000 of GMV by focusing on LA, or $1,000,000 of GMV by focusing on Boston, or you could have $1,000,000 of GMV by having $500,000 here, $200,000 here, like spreading it out.

你可以通过专注于洛杉矶获得 1,000,000 美元的 GMV，或者通过专注于波士顿获得 1,000,000 美元的 GMV，或者通过在这里拥有 500,000 美元、这里拥有 200,000 美元，就像分散一样，你可以拥有 1,000,000 美元的 GMV。

And I would meet so many founders who would say, " Oh, well, I thought we had to prove out that the value proposition resonated in these other cities and so, that's why we're diffusing our focus." But what they what I would always feel is like they were just making their job so much harder by doing that.

我会遇到很多创始人，他们会说：“哦，好吧，我认为我们必须证明我们的价值主张能在其他城市引起共鸣，所以，这就是我们分散注意力的原因。”但我总觉得他们这样做只是让他们的工作变得更加困难。

Sarah Tavel: The other way you could think of it is like if you're trying to get to $1,000,000 of GMV as quickly as possible, you're actually motivated to go after a really big market, right?

Sarah Tavel：换句话说，如果你想尽快达到 1,000,000 美元的 GMV，那么你实际上有动力去追求一个真正大的市场，对吗？

It's a lot easier to get to $1,000,000 of GMV when you're skimming the cream on this big ocean of a market, then to be very, very focused on a smaller market.

当你在这片广阔的市场中取精华时，获得 1,000,000 美元的 GMV 会容易得多，然后非常非常专注于较小的市场。

And getting to $1,000,000 of GMV in a constrained market is a lot harder, takes longer, but it's actually the path to building something that endures.

在一个受限的市场中达到 100 万美元的 GMV 要困难得多，需要更长的时间，但这实际上是打造持久产品的道路。

Sarah Tavel: And so, I was having the same conversation again and again and I just felt like I needed to crystallize it or synthesize it in a way that would be easier to communicate, and that's what led to this hierarchy.

莎拉·塔维尔：所以，我一次又一次地进行相同的对话，我只是觉得我需要以一种更容易沟通的方式将其具体化或综合，这就是导致这种层次结构的原因。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

Okay, cool.

好吧，酷。

So you've touched on a number of the important elements of this hierarchy, so let's dive in.

您已经接触到了该层次结构的许多重要元素，所以让我们深入探讨一下。

Sarah Tavel: Okay.

莎拉·塔维尔：好的。

There's probably a couple core insights, but the first one that I think about with this hierarchy is that when you're building a marketplace, you actually have to start from the goal and work backwards from there.

可能有几个核心见解，但我对这个层次结构想到的第一个见解是，当您构建市场时，您实际上必须从目标开始，然后从那里向后工作。

Sarah Tavel: Now, what's the goal?

莎拉·塔维尔：现在，目标是什么？

Marketplaces, I mean, you have so much incredible content on this, they're just incredibly difficult to build.

我的意思是，市场上有很多令人难以置信的内容，但构建它们却非常困难。

You're basically building two companies at the same time, right?

你基本上是在同时建立两家公司，对吧？

You have the product and go-to-market org for the demand side, the product and go-to-market org for the supply side.

您拥有需求方的产品和上市组织，以及供应方的产品和上市组织。

And somehow, you have to make these two line up so that they serve each other's needs.

无论如何，你必须让这两者对齐，以便它们满足彼此的需求。

It's an incredibly difficult dance.

这是一种极其困难的舞蹈。

And yeah, it's one of the hardest types of companies in the software world that I think you can build.

是的，我认为这是软件世界中最难建立的公司类型之一。

Sarah Tavel: And you do it because you think about the the full expression of these models and you think about companies like Airbnb or Amazon or eBay or Google, where once you have scale and have very dominant market share, you have a product that just is the best place without question of fulfilling this need.

莎拉·塔维尔：你这样做是因为你考虑了这些模型的完整表达，你考虑了像 Airbnb、亚马逊、eBay 或谷歌这样的公司，一旦你拥有规模并拥有非常主导的市场份额，你就会拥有一个毫无疑问满足这种需求的最佳产品。

And they end up being very profitable cash-flowing businesses.

它们最终成为利润丰厚的现金流企业。

And you see that, and that's the business that you want to build, that's why you're going through all the hardship of building a marketplace, getting the marketplace off the ground to get to that place.

你看到了，这就是你想要建立的业务，这就是为什么你要经历建立市场的所有困难，让市场起步才能到达那个地方。

Sarah Tavel: And there's kind of very clear analysis.

莎拉·塔维尔：有非常清晰的分析。

I published it in the hierarchy.

我将其发布在层次结构中。

I have this incredible graph that I remember seeing when I board observer for this online classified company called OLX led by Fabrice Grinda.

我记得当我担任法布里斯·格林达 (Fabrice Grinda) 领导的一家名为 OLX 的在线分类公司的观察员时，我看到了这张令人难以置信的图表。

And it kind of shows that the more dominant a marketplace is relative to the number two in its space, the more profitable that business is.

这在某种程度上表明，一个市场相对于其领域的第二大市场越占主导地位，该业务的利润就越高。

And so, it's just like a very clear like you don't want to be...

所以，这就像一个非常明确的事情，就像你不想...

Obviously, when you're building a marketplace, you don't want to be in the middle of the pack, but even being number one but just barely number one doesn't give you any of the benefits of a marketplace model, you're fighting for each incremental point of market share.

显然，当你建立一个市场时，你不想处于中间位置，但即使是第一，但只是勉强排名第一，也不会给你带来市场模型的任何好处，你要为市场份额的每一个增量点而奋斗。

It's not clear to the supply side or the demand side that you're like the main place to be.

对于供应方或需求方来说，并不清楚您是否是主要的地方。

And so, it only becomes really clear once you have that dominant market position where you're just so much bigger than the number two

因此，只有当你拥有市场主导地位，并且你的规模比第二名大得多时，这一点才会变得非常清楚

Sarah Tavel: And the only way to get to that place, to get to that moment of real dominance where you have this winner take most dynamic is that you have to tip your market, and that's the only scalable way to do that, and that's what level two is.

莎拉·塔维尔（Sarah Tavel）：要达到这个目标，达到真正的统治地位，让赢家占据最有活力的时刻，唯一的方法就是你必须倾斜你的市场，这是唯一可扩展的方法，这就是第二级。

Sarah Tavel: And so, how do you maximize your chance of tipping a market?

莎拉·塔维尔：那么，如何最大限度地提高扭转市场的机会呢？

You have to focus on a really constrained opportunity, and that is level one.

你必须专注于一个真正有限的机会，这是第一级。

So that's kind of like the broad framing, which is like a really important thing of how, when you're building a marketplace, you actually are building towards that point of dominance.

这有点像大框架，当你建立一个市场时，这就像一个非常重要的事情，你实际上是在朝着主导地位迈进。

And so, it's part of the reason why being really, really, really focused in level one is so important.

因此，这就是为什么真正、真正、真正专注于第一级如此重要的部分原因。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

So you walked through this backwards.

所以你倒退了一遍。

Just to summarize in case people didn't totally catch it, basically, layer one is focus, layer two, tip the market, layer three, dominate the market.

总结一下，以防人们完全理解不了，基本上，第一层是焦点，第二层是引导市场，第三层是主导市场。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

So let's maybe start with layer one of just focus-

所以让我们从第一层开始——

Lenny: ...

莱尼：……

which I think is the most counterintuitive step for people building a marketplace where, as you said, normally, it's go big as fast as possible, get as much GMV as possible, just make everyone happy as quickly as you can.

我认为，对于建立市场的人来说，这是最违反直觉的一步，正如你所说，通常情况下，它会尽可能快地发展壮大，获得尽可能多的 GMV，尽快让每个人都满意。

And your advice is, essentially, do the opposite.

你的建议本质上是反其道而行之。

Make it very...

让它非常...

Lenny: You have this like great acronym of thimble that, I imagine, you'll talk about that I love, I always think about.

莱尼：你有一个很棒的顶针缩写，我想，你会谈论我喜欢的，我一直在想的。

So yeah.

所以是的。

Sarah Tavel: Yeah.

莎拉·塔维尔：是的。

And part of what's so hard about this idea focus is I'm lucky to meet with just incredibly ambitious founders.

这个想法焦点之所以如此困难，部分原因在于我很幸运能够遇到雄心勃勃的创始人。

And the hardest thing I think about building these marketplaces is that the ambition can often feel like this sun, like the heat of the sun that's trying to warm everything up, and you're going after this big market, warming the ocean.

我认为建立这些市场最困难的事情是，雄心壮志常常感觉就像太阳，就像太阳的热量试图温暖一切，而你正在追求这个大市场，温暖海洋。

Sarah Tavel: And I think that, really, what the the best, ambitious founders do is they focus that ambition like a laser beam on a small market, the thimble.

莎拉·塔维尔：我认为，实际上，最优秀、雄心勃勃的创始人所做的就是他们将雄心像激光束一样集中在一个小市场（顶针）上。

And what you do is like you're getting that thimble, you're getting the product market fit really, really right with this like small, constrained market.

你所做的就像你得到了那个顶针，你让产品市场真正非常适合这个小而受限的市场。

And if you heat that up really, really hot, then it expands from there.

如果你把它加热得非常非常热，它就会从那里膨胀。

Sarah Tavel: And part of this is that we have to accept a couple of points of scarcity.

莎拉·塔维尔：其中一部分原因是我们必须接受一些稀缺性。

One is that, you can't raise hundreds of millions of dollars from the start, where we, especially today, live in a world where there is a constraint around capital.

一是，你不可能从一开始就筹集数亿美元，因为我们，尤其是今天，生活在一个资本受到限制的世界。

And so, you have to be able to take that capital in the beginning and make the most out of it.

因此，您必须能够在一开始就利用这笔资金并充分利用它。

And the only way to do that is to be very, very focused.

做到这一点的唯一方法就是非常非常专注。

Sarah Tavel: And the second thing is that the constraint is the founder's attention.

莎拉·塔维尔：第二件事是限制因素是创始人的注意力。

And again, these things are really, really difficult to to get off the ground, and the only way that you can do it is by having myopic focus on a segment.

再说一次，这些事情真的很难开始，而唯一的方法就是短视地关注某个细分市场。

Sarah Tavel: And the example that I always think about was a very cool thing that we all got to see, which is when the food delivery wars happened, where you had companies like DoorDash and Postmates and Uber Eats, and then, the incumbents of Grubhub, take very different strategies.

莎拉·塔维尔（Sarah Tavel）：我一直想到的例子是一件非常酷的事情，我们都看到了，那就是当食品配送战争发生时，有像 DoorDash、Postmates 和 Uber Eats 这样的公司，然后 Grubhub 的现任者采取了非常不同的策略。

I make comparisons to Postmates and and DoorDash, both successful companies, but Postmates, from the very beginning, had very big ambition and went after all the big cities.

我将 Postmates 和 DoorDash 进行比较，这两家公司都是成功的公司，但 Postmates 从一开始就雄心勃勃，瞄准了所有大城市。

They went after, not just restaurants, but restaurants and Apple and retail, bicycle.

他们不仅追求餐馆，还追求餐馆、苹果、零售、自行车。

I remember, there were so many things that they went after all at the same time.

我记得，他们同时追求的东西太多了。

Sarah Tavel: And when you're playing that game, you're always being compared to whatever other substitutes there are in the market, right.

莎拉·塔维尔：当你玩这款游戏时，你总是会与市场上的其他替代品进行比较，对吧。

And you're it and that just when you have constraint of capital and attention you're you're spreading yourself thin across a lot of different vectors of kind of preference for the customer and the seller.

就是这样，当你受到资本和注意力的限制时，你就将自己分散在许多不同的客户和卖家偏好向量中。

Sarah Tavel: DoorDash on the other hand, famously and very controversially went after the suburbs in the beginning.

莎拉·塔维尔（Sarah Tavel）：DoorDash 则相反，它一开始就瞄准了郊区，这一点是众所周知且颇具争议的。

And the beautiful thing about the suburbs is that there is very little competition because no one thought that you could do it economically.

郊区的美妙之处在于竞争很少，因为没有人认为你可以经济地做到这一点。

And they probably weren't wrong in the beginning, like DoorDash lost a lot of money in the beginning fulfilling delivery in the suburbs, just because the delivery times, the driving was so long, but by going after a market that other people weren't focused on, it let them get to a place where they were able to really make the customers on both sides of their marketplace happy enough that they retained.

他们一开始可能并没有错，就像 DoorDash 刚开始在郊区送货时损失了很多钱，只是因为送货时间、驾驶时间太长，但通过瞄准其他人不关注的市场，这让他们能够真正让市场双方的客户感到满意，从而保留下来。

Sarah Tavel: And this word happy I use, I should expand on it a little bit because the realization I had as I reflected on this kind of feeling that GMV is really actually a vanity metric, it doesn't get at the core of whether you're building enduring value.

莎拉·塔维尔（Sarah Tavel）：我使用“快乐”这个词，我应该稍微扩展一下它，因为当我反思这种感觉时，我意识到 GMV 实际上是一个虚荣指标，它并不是你是否正在建立持久价值的核心。

It's like very clear and there's plenty of examples I could give where there are companies that had incredible scale and still were disrupted by a startup.

这非常清楚，我可以举出很多例子，有些公司拥有令人难以置信的规模，但仍然被初创公司颠覆。

And it's because actually, customers don't care how big you are, they don't care how many transactions you've accumulated.

这是因为实际上，客户并不关心你有多大，他们也不关心你积累了多少交易。

What they care about is when they have a transaction with you, how happy do you make them?

他们关心的是当他们与你进行交易时，你让他们有多高兴？

How much better is the experience that you provide than any other substitute that they could use?

您提供的体验比他们可以使用的任何其他替代品好多少？

And if you do a good job, then they're gonna keep coming back to you.

如果你做得很好，那么他们会继续回来找你。

And so I call it happy GMV.

所以我称之为快乐 GMV。

Sarah Tavel: And that's actually the thing that I think you as a founder or product leader have to focus on, which is, what do I think is going to be the experience of a buyer or seller that leads them to retaining and tracking that as like the happy path and therefore, the happy GMV.

Sarah Tavel：这实际上是我认为作为创始人或产品领导者必须关注的事情，也就是说，我认为买家或卖家的体验是什么，会引导他们保留和跟踪这种体验，就像快乐的道路一样，因此，快乐的 GMV。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

I love that concept, happy GMV.

我喜欢这个概念，快乐的 GMV。

You also kind of extend this idea and I think you call it the minimum viable happiness is what you want to create when you're building this marketplace, this symbol of water that you're trying to boil into something incredible.

你也扩展了这个想法，我认为你称之为“最低限度可行的幸福”，这就是你在建立这个市场时想要创造的东西，这是你试图将其煮沸成令人难以置信的东西的水的象征。

What's the minimum version of that that creates really happy customers?

能够让客户真正满意的最低版本是什么？

Sarah Tavel: That's right.

莎拉·塔维尔：没错。

Yes.

是的。

And kind of the way to think of it is like, obviously, when you're a marketplace founder you know that in order to build something endures, you're going to have to grow.

显然，当你是市场创始人时，你知道为了建立持久的东西，你必须成长。

But you in the beginning, you're you're doing all these things that don't scale, you're working on your product experience, you're taking friction out of the transaction, and you want to get to a point where there's a certain percentage of people that retain after having done a transaction.

但一开始，你正在做所有这些无法扩展的事情，你正在致力于你的产品体验，你正在消除交易中的摩擦，并且你希望达到一定比例的人在完成交易后保留的程度。

And so, you're kind of doing the work, doing the work, doing the work to get to that minimum threshold.

所以，你需要不断地努力，不断地努力，以达到最低限度。

And that's when you know you get to kind of go to the next step of starting to figure out the levers to really scale what you're doing.

那时你知道你可以进入下一步，开始找出真正扩展你正在做的事情的杠杆。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

And again, it's easy to say, it's difficult to do as a founder to tell them like, "You just need to get a small version of this marketplace working, versus you go big really quickly." And so, most of the time, I think it's actually like location, basically start in a city if it's location-oriented.

再说一次，说起来很容易，但作为创始人却很难告诉他们，“你只需要让这个市场的一个小版本发挥作用，而不是很快就做大。”所以，大多数时候，我认为这实际上就像位置，如果是以位置为导向的话，基本上是从一个城市开始。

Or if it's all online, pick like one niche to focus on, like Etsy was like, craft fair goods, right?

或者，如果都是在线的，那就选择一个利基市场来专注，就像 Etsy 那样，制作公平的商品，对吗？

Sarah Tavel: Exactly.

莎拉·塔维尔：没错。

And sometimes, as we saw with Postmates, sometimes it's both, which is, geography and category.

有时，正如我们在 Postmates 中看到的那样，有时两者兼而有之，即地理和类别。

Again, you have to assume scarcity of your capital, of your attention, of your customers attention and so getting complete clarity of what is the experience that you want to really nail, what's that happy path you're optimizing for, constraining that in the beginning gives you the option, the optionality to grow beyond that, but if you don't constrain, you just won't be able to get there fast enough.

再说一次，你必须假设你的资本、你的注意力、你的客户注意力是稀缺的，因此要完全清楚你真正想要的体验是什么，你正在优化的快乐路径是什么，一开始限制它会给你提供选择，超越这个的选择，但如果你不限制，你将无法足够快地到达那里。

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Lenny：这整集是由 Gelt 为您带来的，Gelt 是通往更智能税务解决方案的门户。

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现在轮到你了。

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莱尼：为什么选择盖尔特？

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Lenny: I want to talk about what it looks like when you you've got it working and it makes sense to start expanding, but before I do, there's one kind of example I found in my research which is really interesting, which is Thumbtack where they, from the beginning, went national and across many categories.

莱尼：我想谈谈当你让它发挥作用并且开始扩张是有意义的时候，它会是什么样子，但在我开始之前，我在我的研究中发现了一个非常有趣的例子，那就是图钉，他们从一开始就走向全国并跨越许多类别。

And the founders admit maybe that wasn't the right idea.

创始人承认这也许不是正确的想法。

It took them a long time to get to something that was really working.

他们花了很长时间才找到真正有效的东西。

But on the other hand, their thinking was to create enough of a flywheel for people to keep coming back.

但另一方面，他们的想法是创造足够的飞轮，让人们不断回来。

How often do you need a plumber?

您多久需要一次水管工？

How often do you need a DJ?

您多久需要一次 DJ？

So there's-

所以有——

Sarah Tavel: I was just going to say that is the trickiness with Thumbtacks model and it persists as the trickiness with their model, which is that you don't have a high repeat use case there and so you have to...

Sarah Tavel：我只是想说这就是图钉模型的棘手之处，并且它仍然是他们模型的棘手之处，那就是你在那里没有高重复用例，所以你必须......

One of the really important things with building a marketplace is cornering the buy side, like having a relationship with the buy side where they don't even think about where they're gonna go, they come to you.

建立市场真正重要的事情之一就是垄断买方，就像与买方建立关系一样，他们甚至不考虑他们要去哪里，他们就会来找你。

And if it's a plumber, you use that so infrequently that every time you are going to look for a plumber, you're gonna start at Google, right?

如果是水管工，那么你很少使用这个职位，所以每次你要寻找水管工时，你都会从 Google 开始，对吗？

You're not gonna assume, "I'm gonna go to Thumbtack to find that because-

你不会假设，“我要去图钉找到那个，因为-

Sarah Tavel: I'm not going to assume I'm going to go to Thumbtack to find that because you've already forgotten by that point.

莎拉·塔维尔：我不会假设我会去图钉找到它，因为那时你已经忘记了。

And so you need to have enough touch points with the consumer so that they'll have a relationship with you and start to think of you as a place to go to.

因此，您需要与消费者有足够的接触点，以便他们与您建立关系并开始将您视为一个可以去的地方。

And that's probably, that was the trickiness with Thumbtack.

这可能就是图钉的棘手之处。

And by the way, when we talk through level two, that also level two will articulate some more of that trickiness.

顺便说一句，当我们讨论第二级时，第二级也会阐明更多的棘手之处。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

By the way, I do use Thumbtack.

顺便说一句，我确实使用图钉。

It's implanted in my head of that's where to go to find plumbers and stuff.

它已经植入我的脑海中，那就是去哪里寻找水管工之类的东西。

Sarah Tavel: That's great.

莎拉·塔维尔：那太好了。

I mean those founders, I adore Marco.

我指的是那些创始人，我很喜欢 Marco。

He is an incredible, incredible founder.

他是一位令人难以置信、令人难以置信的创始人。

Lenny: As a segue to layer two, what are signs that you've done a good job at focusing and things are working?

莱尼：作为第二层的延续，有哪些迹象表明你在集中注意力方面做得很好并且事情正在发挥作用？

You have this term that I love of creating a white hot center, so maybe speak to that, or just what tells you, it's like, "Cool, I think we've got this very focused thimble.

我喜欢用这个术语来创造一个白热化的中心，所以也许可以谈谈这个，或者只是告诉你什么，就像，“酷，我认为我们有这个非常集中的顶针。

How do we know it's time to go?"

我们怎么知道是时候该走了呢？”

Sarah Tavel: Yeah, I think it's very much that you see people retaining.

莎拉·塔维尔（Sarah Tavel）：是的，我认为人们保留的程度非常高。

You just feel that where people are texting you or emailing or whatever it is, that they've had a great experience and you see them coming back.

你只是觉得，当人们给你发短信或发送电子邮件或其他任何方式时，他们已经获得了很棒的体验，并且你会看到他们回来。

And you're not going to make everybody happy.

而且你不会让每个人都高兴。

Let's all accept that.

让我们都接受这一点。

But there's a core of users, a persona that you are able to make really happy.

但有一个核心用户，一个你能够让他们真正快乐的角色。

That's when you know that you're on the right track.

那时您就知道自己走在正确的轨道上。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

It's essentially the very fuzzy product market fit question.

这本质上是一个非常模糊的产品市场契合度问题。

Lenny: And I'll link to a few posts I've written that help people get there.

莱尼：我将链接到我写的一些帖子，这些帖子可以帮助人们实现这一目标。

I guess is there anything you want to add there like this?

我想你想在那里添加什么东西吗？

Sarah Tavel: The only thing I'll add, those two things related I'll add.

莎拉·塔维尔（Sarah Tavel）：我要添加的唯一一件事是，我将添加这两件事相关的内容。

I don't like NPS for this, and I have a whole blog post on this.

我不喜欢 NPS，我对此有完整的博客文章。

I like Sean Ellis's question of how disappointed would you be if this product disappeared?

我喜欢 Sean Ellis 的问题，如果这个产品消失了，你会有多失望？

And I think it's if you have at least 40% of people respond that they'd be very disappointed, then you're on the right track.

我认为如果至少有 40% 的人表示他们会非常失望，那么你就走在正确的道路上。

That's kind of the feeling that should tell you you're on the right track.

这种感觉应该告诉你你走在正确的道路上。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

Okay, let's talk about layer two around tipping the marketplace.

好吧，让我们谈谈围绕市场倾斜的第二层。

Sarah Tavel: So layer two, I think, will actually illuminate again the importance of that constrained focus for layer one.

莎拉·塔维尔：所以我认为，第二层实际上将再次阐明第一层的有限焦点的重要性。

You're doing all these things that don't scale, that you've written so much about, Lenny, about kick-starting, the marketplace, all those things that you can't just keep on doing forever.

你正在做的所有这些事情都无法规模化，你已经写了很多关于启动、市场的事情，莱尼，所有这些你不能永远继续做的事情。

Sarah Tavel: Now, layer two, level two is about figuring out how to do things that do scale.

莎拉·塔维尔（Sarah Tavel）：现在，第二层、第二层是关于弄清楚如何做可扩展的事情。

And really, you're doing it in service of this kind of mythical moment of a tipping point.

事实上，你这样做是为了服务于这种神话般的转折点时刻。

And the tipping point is this idea that you often reach some kind of saturation point in a market.

临界点是市场经常达到某种饱和点的想法。

You've reached an experience, you've kept on working on the product experience, you've taken a lot of friction out, and you keep on growing, growing, growing.

你已经获得了一种体验，你一直致力于产品体验，你已经消除了很多摩擦，并且你不断成长、成长、成长。

And you're doing that in service of increasing happiness.

你这样做是为了增加幸福感。

Sarah Tavel: And this is a really important thing.

莎拉·塔维尔：这是一件非常重要的事情。

The growth that you're doing, you should have a lot of clarity on your flywheel at this point, and know that you're growing in service of accelerating your flywheel.

你正在做的成长，此时你应该对你的飞轮有很多清晰的认识，并且知道你的成长是为了加速你的飞轮。

And people talk about the flywheel as liquidity.

人们将飞轮称为流动性。

You could think of it as happiness, which is that the more the flywheel spins, the more you're able to make both sides of your marketplace happy.

你可以将其视为幸福，即飞轮旋转得越多，你就越能让市场双方都感到高兴。

Sarah Tavel: And what you're doing is you're growing into a greater percentage of your market.

莎拉·塔维尔（Sarah Tavel）：您正在做的就是扩大市场份额。

And as you're doing all these things again that don't scale, then you reach this moment where things start to get a lot easier.

当你再次做所有这些无法扩展的事情时，你就会到达这一刻，事情开始变得容易得多。

You've kind of pushed the boulder up the hill and it starts to slide down.

你把巨石推上山，它开始滑落。

And what you notice first, I think, is you start to see it on a micro level where you might have suppliers that start to tip to you or buyers that tip.

我认为，你首先注意到的是，你开始在微观层面上看到它，你可能会有供应商开始给你小费，或者买家开始给你小费。

You might see your cohorts get a little bit better.

您可能会发现您的同伴变得更好了一些。

You start to see some organic growth.

你开始看到一些有机增长。

Sarah Tavel: And let me give a story or an example of a company that I got to see where the marketplace started to tip.

莎拉·塔维尔：让我举一个故事或一个公司的例子，我看到了市场开始向何处倾斜。

So we're investors in a company called REKKI.

我们是一家名为 REKKI 的公司的投资者。

And REKKI is a marketplace for restaurants and their suppliers.

REKKI 是餐厅及其供应商的市场。

And it's, imagine in the beginning, this kind of app that you could use.

一开始想象一下，您可以使用这种应用程序。

It almost looked like WhatsApp, that a chef could use instead of doing a voicemail at midnight when they're leaving the restaurant or typing something into WhatsApp and texting it to their supplier, an email, whatever it is.

它几乎看起来像 WhatsApp，厨师可以使用它，而不是在午夜离开餐厅时发送语音邮件，或者在 WhatsApp 中输入一些内容，然后发短信给他们的供应商，电子邮件，无论是什么。

They could use this REKKI app and it would make it a lot easier for them to do that.

他们可以使用这个 REKKI 应用程序，这会让他们更容易做到这一点。

And then of course the marketplace elements is that then they'll be able to discover other suppliers on REKKI if they need them.

当然，市场要素是，如果他们需要的话，他们将能够在 REKKI 上发现其他供应商。

Sarah Tavel: Now in the beginning, REKKI had to have their own sales force and they were going to London, knocking on the doors of these restaurants, finding and cornering probably the chef in the kitchen to show them the app, to get them to change to this new app called REKKI.

Sarah Tavel：一开始，REKKI 必须拥有自己的销售队伍，他们要去伦敦，敲开这些餐厅的大门，找到厨房里的厨师，并向他们展示应用程序，让他们改用这个名为 REKKI 的新应用程序。

And it's a very high cost of sales effort to have, as you might imagine.

正如您可能想象的那样，销售工作的成本非常高。

But then what started to happen is that every time they got a new chef onto REKKI, that order would then go to the supplier that that restaurant normally ordered from.

但后来开始发生的事情是，每当他们在 REKKI 上引进一位新厨师时，该订单就会发送给该餐厅通常订购的供应商。

And so instead of getting the voicemail, the supplier would start to see a nice order form that was from the restaurant and provided by REKKI, powered by REKKI.

因此，供应商不会收到语音邮件，而是会开始看到一份来自餐厅、由 REKKI 提供、由 REKKI 提供支持的精美订单。

Sarah Tavel: And what would happen is that as REKKI grew more and more in London, these suppliers started to get more and more of their restaurants ordering via REKKI.

Sarah Tavel：随着 REKKI 在伦敦的发展越来越大，这些供应商开始让越来越多的餐厅通过 REKKI 订购。

And then some of the early suppliers started to be like, "Well, this is so much easier for me.

然后一些早期的供应商开始说，“嗯，这对我来说容易多了。

I would much rather get this order form from REKKI than have to listen to an hour of voicemails from chefs with different accents and different ways of ordering their food in the morning when I come in.

我宁愿从 REKKI 拿到这张订单，也不愿早上进来时听厨师用不同口音和不同点餐方式发来的一个小时的语音邮件。

Sarah Tavel: And so then the suppliers would reach out to REKKI and be like, "Hey, here's a CSV of all of our customers.

Sarah Tavel：然后供应商就会联系 REKKI 并说：“嘿，这是我们所有客户的 CSV。

Can you reach out to them and onboard them to REKKI because I'd much rather have my orders come via REKKI than the way I'm getting them." And so you go from this moment of the hard high cost of sales, pounding the pavement, to getting a list on a silver platter of restaurants to onboard.

您能否联系他们并让他们加入 REKKI，因为我宁愿通过 REKKI 收到订单，而不是通过我收到订单的方式。”因此，从销售成本高昂的时刻开始，你就开始敲打人行道，到获得一份可以上船的餐厅名单。

And that's that feeling of tipping, where all of a sudden something goes from being really freaking hard to so much easier.

这就是那种倾斜的感觉，突然之间，某件事从非常困难变得非常容易。

Lenny: It feels a lot like how people describe finding product market fit.

莱尼：这感觉很像人们描述的寻找产品市场契合度。

Things start to feel like you're not pushing anymore and it's just coming to you.

事情开始感觉你不再强迫它了，它就会向你袭来。

Lenny: In your experience, is this tipping often just happens as you become more successful in this thimble of a marketplace?

莱尼：根据您的经验，当您在这个市场中变得更加成功时，这种小费通常会发生吗？

Or is it things you have to do actively to tip to get to this place?

或者是你必须主动付小费才能到达这个地方？

It sounds like in REKKI it was like this feature they built of just recommending, "Hey, you should check out REKKI, and maybe other suppliers would help you have an easier time if they're joining." So is it usually like it just happens with scale, or is there usually something you have to change to create this tipping point?

听起来在 REKKI 中，他们构建的这个功能只是推荐，“嘿，你应该看看 REKKI，如果其他供应商加入，也许他们会帮助你更轻松地度过。”那么，这通常是随着规模的扩大而发生的，还是通常需要改变一些东西才能创造这个临界点？

Sarah Tavel: I don't think Ronan predicted that that was what was going to happen.

莎拉·塔维尔：我认为罗南并没有预测到会发生这样的事情。

And you're constant, that kind of customer obsession, having the relationships with the suppliers, having the relationship with the buyers, so that you have your ear to the ground.

而且你始终保持着对客户的痴迷，与供应商建立关系，与买家建立关系，这样你就可以倾听实际情况。

And when they start to lean in a little bit, you're there to receive them.

当他们开始稍微倾斜时，你就会在那里迎接他们。

And so I think this is very much part of what great marketplace founders are able to do, is they're able to start to feel that there's something tipping in their direction and then create momentum behind it.

因此，我认为这在很大程度上是伟大的市场创始人能够做的事情，他们能够开始感觉到有一些东西正在朝着他们的方向倾斜，然后在其背后创造动力。

Sarah Tavel: And that's a lot of what this level two is all about, which is that, I think, every marketplace has to figure out what I call tipping loops.

莎拉·塔维尔：这就是第二级的全部内容，我认为每个市场都必须弄清楚我所说的倾斜循环。

And there's two types of tipping loops that work together symbiotically to help a marketplace scale.

有两种类型的小费循环共生，有助于扩大市场规模。

Sarah Tavel: The first are the growth loops.

莎拉·塔维尔：首先是增长循环。

And so we just talked about an example with REKKI.

我们刚刚讨论了 REKKI 的一个例子。

There are many examples of this Hipcamp, another marketplace I'm lucky to work with.

Hipcamp 有很多例子，这是我有幸合作的另一个市场。

If you and I went camping on Hipcamp and I booked a tree house on Hipcamp, and you are going to join me on it, I could then as part of my checkout flow, essentially invite you to my reservation so that you could see the maps, the more information about the tree house and any of the sites around it.

如果你和我去 Hipcamp 露营，我在 Hipcamp 预订了一间树屋，而你要和我一起去，那么作为我结账流程的一部分，我可以邀请你加入我的预订，这样你就可以看到地图、有关树屋及其周围任何地点的更多信息。

And so I'm the person that Hipcamp acquired, but then I pull you into my experience and that's a great buyer to buyer growth loop.

因此，我是 Hipcamp 收购的人，但随后我将您带入我的经验中，这是一个很好的买家到买家的增长循环。

Sarah Tavel: There's classic seller to seller loops or buyer to seller, all these directions.

Sarah Tavel：有经典的卖方到卖方循环或买方到卖方，所有这些方向。

And then the great marketplaces see those loops and they figure out ways to accelerate them.

然后，伟大的市场看到了这些循环，并找到了加速循环的方法。

So classic seller to seller referrals.

非常经典的卖家间推荐。

Uber drivers would tell their friend, "Oh, you should start driving for Uber, it's great." But then Uber incentivize it with a referral bonus, and you started to see Uber drivers literally writing blog posts about how much they loved driving for Uber because some of them were making more money getting the referral bonus then actually driving.

优步司机会告诉他们的朋友，“哦，你应该开始为优步开车，这太棒了。”但后来 Uber 通过推荐奖金来激励它，你开始看到 Uber 司机写博客文章，讲述他们有多么喜欢为 Uber 开车，因为他们中的一些人获得推荐奖金比实际开车赚的钱更多。

And so you're trying to find these growth loops and you maximize them.

所以你试图找到这些增长循环并最大化它们。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

I'll link to a post that has a lot of these insights from this work that I've done on marketplaces, but a few others that are just interesting.

我将链接到一篇文章，其中包含我在市场上所做的这项工作中的许多见解，但还有其他一些有趣的内容。

Basically you're trying to figure out how do you create a engine that continues to drive supply and also drives demand.

基本上，你试图弄清楚如何创建一个既能继续推动供应又能推动需求的引擎。

So a fun example is when Etsy was getting started, as you know, they went to craft fairs and pitched sellers, "Hey, sign up for Etsy.

一个有趣的例子是，当 Etsy 刚刚起步时，正如你所知，他们去工艺品博览会并向卖家推销，“嘿，注册 Etsy。

You could sell your stuff online." And then all their sellers started telling all their buyers, "Hey, buy my stuff on Etsy."

你可以在网上卖你的东西。”然后他们所有的卖家都开始告诉所有的买家，“嘿，在 Etsy 上买我的东西。”

Sarah Tavel: Etsy literally gave them business cards.

Sarah Tavel：Etsy 确实给了他们名片。

So Etsy gave their sellers business cards that made them feel like, "Oh, I'm a real..." Made them feel professional.

因此，Etsy 给他们的卖家提供了名片，让他们感觉“哦，我是一个真正的......”让他们感觉很专业。

And the link on it was to their Etsy store.

上面的链接是他们的 Etsy 商店。

Lenny: I love that.

莱尼：我喜欢这个。

One of the most magical growth engines of marketplaces is when your supply brings on the demand.

市场最神奇的增长引擎之一就是当你的供应带来需求时。

So that's a really good example.

这是一个很好的例子。

Another one is DoorDash, where basically a restaurant signed up for DoorDash and then they tell all the customers, "You want to order our food?

另一个是 DoorDash，基本上是一家餐厅注册了 DoorDash，然后他们告诉所有顾客，“你想点我们的食物吗？

Go to DoorDash and order it." And so all the restaurants are telling everyone about DoorDash and then they become DoorDash users and they order from other restaurants.

前往 DoorDash 并订购。”因此，所有餐厅都向所有人介绍 DoorDash，然后他们成为 DoorDash 用户，并从其他餐厅订购。

Sarah Tavel: Yes, and it shows how creative DoorDash was to both sides of the market in that example.

Sarah Tavel：是的，在这个例子中，它展示了 DoorDash 对市场双方的创造性。

Lenny: And then Faire is an awesome example too.

莱尼：费尔也是一个很棒的例子。

It sounds similar to REKKI as you described, where Faire is basically a B2B artisanal items marketplace where boutique shops buy nice candles and blankets for their store to sell.

这听起来与您所描述的 REKKI 类似，其中 Faire 基本上是一个 B2B 工艺品市场，精品店在这里购买漂亮的蜡烛和毯子供其商店出售。

And essentially they did what you described, where they signed on a store and they basically told them, "All your vendors can join for free and not have to pay any fees if they sign up for Faire, and it makes it easy for you to buy their stuff." And then on the other side, a candlemaker tells all the places they sell to, "Hey, you should use Faire.

基本上他们就是按照你所描述的那样做的，他们在一家商店上签约，他们基本上告诉他们，“你所有的供应商都可以免费加入，如果他们注册 Faire，则无需支付任何费用，这让你可以轻松购买他们的东西。”然后在另一边，一位蜡烛制造商告诉所有他们销售的地方，“嘿，你应该使用 Faire。

It's so easy to buy our stuff, and we can communicate through there." And they can sign up without any fees.

购买我们的东西非常容易，我们可以通过那里进行交流。”他们可以免费注册。

So basically everyone just invites all their existing partners on Faire, and then everyone's on Faire.

所以基本上每个人都只是邀请所有现有的合作伙伴加入 Faire，然后每个人都加入 Faire。

So yeah, there's a lot of ways to do it.

是的，有很多方法可以做到这一点。

Sarah Tavel: I love it.

莎拉·塔维尔：我喜欢它。

And so the second type of loop, and again this loop works symbiotically with the growth loop, is what I call happiness loops.

因此，第二种类型的循环，同样与增长循环共生，就是我所说的幸福循环。

And I think of them almost as the kidneys for your marketplace as you grow.

我认为它们几乎是你成长过程中市场的肾脏。

The happiness loop, the idea is you have a lot of new sellers coming in, and of course you have new buyers, but you want to make sure that you are matching your buyers with the sellers that are going to give them the best experience.

幸福循环，这个想法是你有很多新卖家进来，当然你也有新买家，但你要确保你将买家与能够为他们提供最佳体验的卖家相匹配。

Sarah Tavel: And so, normally in a consumer social product, churn is heartbreaking.

莎拉·塔维尔：因此，通常在消费者社交产品中，客户流失是令人心碎的。

Once a user churns, they're almost never going to come back.

一旦用户流失，他们几乎永远不会再回来。

And with a consumer social product, you're trying to get to massive scale.

对于消费者社交产品，你正试图实现大规模。

But when you're building a marketplace, actually, there's a healthy amount of churn that you want on the supplier side because there are just going to be suppliers who aren't going to create a great experience for the buyer, and you can't do anything about that.

但实际上，当你建立一个市场时，你希望供应商方面有一定程度的流失，因为有些供应商不会为买家创造良好的体验，而你对此无能为力。

Sarah Tavel: And so we've all had the Uber driver who you give one star to.

莎拉·塔维尔（Sarah Tavel）：我们都有过可以给一颗星的 Uber 司机。

That person you don't want on your marketplace getting matched with buyers.

您不希望在市场上出现的那个人与买家进行匹配。

And so you're trying to then make sure that, as you grow, you have a natural mechanism in your marketplace to reward the suppliers that you want to reward and to churn out the ones that you don't.

因此，你要努力确保，随着你的成长，你的市场中有一个自然的机制来奖励你想要奖励的供应商，并大量生产你不想奖励的供应商。

Of course your job is to do your best to set all the sellers up for success, but it's an inevitability.

当然，您的工作是尽最大努力让所有卖家取得成功，但这是不可避免的。

Sarah Tavel: And so there's two great examples I think of in these happiness loops, which is around search ranking, and then reputation.

莎拉·塔维尔：因此，我在这些幸福循环中想到了两个很好的例子，即围绕搜索排名，然后是声誉。

Search ranking is just a very obvious one, which is, you're trying to understand what creates a happy experience for the buy side, and then reward the sellers that provide that experience.

搜索排名只是一个非常明显的一个，也就是说，你试图了解是什么为买方创造了快乐的体验，然后奖励提供这种体验的卖家。

Sarah Tavel: So I think an interesting example that ended up actually changing but still is illustrative, is that UberEats in the very beginning of their journey, thought that their advantage in the market was going to be about having really fast delivery, right?

莎拉·塔维尔（Sarah Tavel）：所以我认为一个有趣的例子最终实际上发生了变化，但仍然很说明问题，UberEats 在他们的旅程一开始就认为他们在市场上的优势在于提供非常快速的送货，对吗？

Because they already had this network of drivers and so they thought that that's where they were going to really lean in and have an edge over any competition.

因为他们已经拥有了这个司机网络，所以他们认为这就是他们真正可以依靠并在任何竞争中拥有优势的地方。

And so in the search ranking, they rewarded restaurants that prepared the food quickly, and so answered the Uber Eats request, and then actually got the food out as fast as possible so that Uber Eats became synonymous with the quickness by which you got the delivery.

因此，在搜索排名中，他们奖励了快速准备食物的餐厅，从而响应了 Uber Eats 的要求，然后实际上以尽可能快的速度将食物送出，这样 Uber Eats 就成为了送货速度的代名词。

And so that restaurant that takes 40 minutes to prepare the food, they would get ranked low in the experience for Uber Eats, even if the food was really, really great.

因此，那些需要 40 分钟准备食物的餐厅，他们在 Uber Eats 优食体验中的排名会很低，即使食物真的非常非常好。

Lenny: Okay, so we've been talking about tipping of the marketplace.

莱尼：好的，我们一直在讨论市场的倾斜。

Is there anything else there that you want to share before we move on to the third layer?

在我们进入第三层之前，您还有什么想分享的吗？

Sarah Tavel: Yeah, there's two other things that come to mind.

莎拉·塔维尔：是的，我想到了另外两件事。

One, just as a reminder, and then one as a caution.

一个只是作为提醒，然后一个是作为警告。

So the reminder is in order to tip a market, you have to reach a saturation point in that market.

所以提醒一下，为了颠覆市场，你必须达到该市场的饱和点。

You can't tip a market before you've penetrated it to some saturation level.

在渗透到某个饱和水平之前，你无法扭转市场。

And it goes back to level one of why you want to focus on a constrained market.

这又回到了为什么你想要专注于受限市场的第一层。

Sarah Tavel: Let's take growing a food delivery product in Des Moines, Iowa versus LA or New York.

Sarah Tavel：让我们以在爱荷华州得梅因与洛杉矶或纽约种植食品配送产品为例。

When you're growing in a small city and you're focused on restaurants, you're going to be able to get to this tipping point a lot faster and more efficiently than if you're going after a very big market.

当你在一个小城市发展并专注于餐馆时，你将能够比你追求一个非常大的市场更快、更有效地达到这个临界点。

And so there's a real advantage to being able to prove out the playbook as quickly as possible and as efficiently as possible before you move on to bigger challenges.

因此，在应对更大的挑战之前，能够尽可能快、尽可能高效地证明剧本是有真正优势的。

And so I think it underscores, again, why it's so valuable in the beginning to focus on something that is constrained.

所以我认为它再次强调了为什么一开始就专注于受限制的事情如此有价值。

Sarah Tavel: And again, Postmates focusing on San Francisco, the city.

莎拉·塔维尔（Sarah Tavel）：再说一遍，《邮差》聚焦于旧金山这座城市。

DoorDash focusing initially on the suburbs, much smaller opportunity, but one that they could really knock the cover off the ball on.

DoorDash 最初专注于郊区，这是一个较小的机会，但他们确实可以突破这一点。

They had no competition.

他们没有竞争。

They had a customer that was desperate for attention, and so they could make them happy.

他们有一位迫切需要关注的客户，因此他们可以让他们高兴。

And that just sets you up for real success to go from strength to the adjacent market.

这只会让您真正取得成功，增强实力，进入邻近市场。

Sarah Tavel: The second thing that I'd say is, and this is so important is that not all markets are susceptible to tipping, right?

莎拉·塔维尔：我要说的第二件事是，这一点非常重要，那就是并非所有市场都容易受到小费的影响，对吗？

We've all experienced this, I'm sure Lenny, with the companies that you work with, the companies I work with, where there are conditions of a market that make it vulnerable to tipping.

我确信莱尼，我们都经历过这种情况，无论是与你合作的公司，还是与我合作的公司，这些公司的市场条件都使其容易受到小费的影响。

I have six in my post just to name a couple classic ones.

我的帖子中有六个，仅举几个经典的。

Sarah Tavel: The first obvious one is just concentration on the supply side.

莎拉·塔维尔：第一个明显的问题就是集中在供应方面。

In order to be able to tip a market, you need suppliers to want to lean in on your marketplace.

为了能够左右市场，您需要供应商愿意依赖您的市场。

My partner, Bill Gurley talks about how great marketplaces create the new incumbents.

我的合作伙伴比尔·格利 (Bill Gurley) 谈论了伟大的市场如何创造新的现有企业。

So you basically have suppliers who aren't the incumbents.

所以基本上你的供应商都不是现任供应商。

The incumbents aren't going to lean in on your marketplace, they're already fat and happy, but you want to have these hungry suppliers who lean in.

现有企业不会依赖你的市场，他们已经很富裕并且很快乐，但你希望这些饥饿的供应商能够依赖你。

But if there's already concentration in your marketplace, in the ecosystem, the market that you're playing in, then you're not going to have sellers lean in, and you're not going to be able to create a flywheel that spins where the more sellers you bring on, the better the pricing or experiences on the demand side because the sellers are happy and there's nobody that's hungry or fighting.

但如果你的市场、生态系统、你所参与的市场已经集中，那么你就不会有卖家介入，你也无法创造一个飞轮，让你带来的卖家越多，需求方的定价或体验就越好，因为卖家很高兴，没有人感到饥饿或战斗。

And so that's just a critical, critical point.

所以这只是一个非常非常关键的点。

Lenny: Bill Gurley and I actually had a little Twitter debate once about supply versus demand and which one's more important.

莱尼：实际上，比尔·格利和我曾经在 Twitter 上就供给与需求以及哪一个更重要进行过辩论。

And basically his pitch was like, "All that really matters in the end, to build a successful marketplace, is can you find the demand?

基本上他的说法是，“最终，要建立一个成功的市场，真正重要的是你能找到需求吗？

Can you bring the demand to your marketplace?" It makes all the sense in the world.

你能把需求带到你的市场吗？”这在世界上都是有意义的。

Everything in the end is, "Can you find customers?"

最终的一切都是“你能找到客户吗？”

Lenny: In the work I've done looking into marketplaces, what I find is the hardest thing to do, to bring people to your marketplace, is to find the supply and bring it to people, basically aggregate it.

莱尼：在我研究市场的工作中，我发现最难做的事情就是将人们带到你的市场，就是找到供应并将其带给人们，基本上是将其聚合起来。

And your point here is exactly right, is that basically the value of your marketplace is to find this non-concentrated demand that's all over the place and bring it together and make it easy to transact with.

你的观点是完全正确的，基本上你的市场的价值就是找到遍布各地的非集中需求，并将其整合在一起，使其易于交易。

So I think that is really important, just to double down on this point, that what makes the marketplace valuable is supply that is hard to find that you make easy to find and transact with.

因此，我认为这非常重要，只是要加倍强调这一点，即使市场变得有价值的是难以找到的供应，而您可以轻松地找到和交易。

And I feel like that's almost the core of what makes marketplace work.

我觉得这几乎是市场运作的核心。

Lenny: Yeah, I think we're both right.

莱尼：是的，我想我们都是对的。

Right, right.

对，对。

Sarah Tavel: Because in the beginning, the only way you get started with the marketplace, obviously, is you're bringing the supply online, and that's what opens up the opportunity.

莎拉·塔维尔（Sarah Tavel）：因为一开始，进入市场的唯一方法显然就是将供应转移到网上，这就是机会。

And the only way then for you to have a chance at tipping the market is if there's enough fragmentation on the supply side to create a differentiated experience for the demand side to care about your marketplace.

那么，你有机会扭转市场的唯一方法是，供应方是否有足够的碎片化，为需求方创造差异化的体验来关心你的市场。

But the only way to build long-term enduring value with a marketplace is to corner the demand side.

但通过市场建立长期持久价值的唯一方法是垄断需求方。

And so it's kind of a little bit that evolution of a marketplace that ends up changing who you focus on.

因此，市场的一点点演变最终会改变你所关注的对象。

Sarah Tavel: And I don't know if you've experienced this in my experience with the marketplaces that I work with, it's a constant like, "I have to focus more on the demand side right now.

莎拉·塔维尔：我不知道你是否在我与我合作的市场的经验中经历过这种情况，这就像“我现在必须更多地关注需求方面”。

Okay, now we got to focus more on the supply side." And it's just back to how difficult these businesses are to build, especially when you have limited resources, that it's like the forever battle of building a marketplace.

好吧，现在我们必须更多地关注供应方面。”这又回到了建立这些业务有多么困难，特别是当你的资源有限时，这就像建立一个市场的永恒之战。

Lenny: Yeah, especially if it's a geographically oriented marketplace like a DoorDash.

Lenny：是的，尤其是像 DoorDash 这样的面向地理的市场。

Sometimes you have more customers than restaurants.

有时你的顾客比餐馆还多。

Lenny: Sometimes you have too many restaurants, not enough customers.

莱尼：有时餐馆太多，顾客却不够。

Lenny: So, it's very city dependent.

莱尼：所以，这非常依赖于城市。

At Airbnb we had basically many attempts at a dashboard of which market is supply constrained, which is demand constrained.

在 Airbnb，我们基本上对仪表板进行了多次尝试，其中市场供应受限，需求受限。

Along the same lines, I think it's also something I think about with B2B marketplaces, the reason they're challenging, in my experience, to work, there's so few of them, is the supply is rarely fragmented.

同样，我认为这也是我对 B2B 市场的思考，根据我的经验，它们之所以具有挑战性，是因为它们的数量如此之少，因为供应很少是分散的。

Usually there are very few suppliers, so it's pretty easy.

通常供应商很少，所以很容易。

"I'm just going to pick one of these 10 and I don't need you." Is that true?

“我只想从这10个中选一个，不需要你。”这是真的吗？

Is that how you think about the challenges of B2B marketplaces?

您是这样看待 B2B 市场挑战的吗？

Sarah Tavel: There's definitely that, but I think actually the bigger challenge with B2B marketplaces is on the homogeneity of the supply.

Sarah Tavel：确实如此，但我认为实际上 B2B 市场面临的更大挑战在于供应的同质性。

When you think about a lot of labor marketplaces, and let's take a classic example of Mechanical Turk, right?

当你想到很多劳动力市场时，让我们举一个 Mechanical Turk 的经典例子，对吗？

What you need in a marketplace for that flywheel...

您在市场上需要什么飞轮......

I have a graph in my slides where you show that the more you penetrate the market, the happier you're able to make your customer.

我的幻灯片中有一张图表，其中显示您对市场的渗透越多，您就越能让客户满意。

You should have an exponential experience where the flywheel doesn't slow down.

您应该获得飞轮不会减速的指数级体验。

Now you take Airbnb as an example, there isn't a limit to how valuable it is to have more supply on Airbnb because everybody has their own special preferences.

现在以 Airbnb 为例，在 Airbnb 上提供更多供应的价值是没有限制的，因为每个人都有自己的特殊偏好。

And there probably is a theoretical limit, but you just feel like there is always going to be the, there's such heterogeneity in the supply for Airbnb, that that's what has let Airbnb really close and escape competition.

理论上可能存在限制，但你会觉得 Airbnb 的供应量总是存在这种异质性，这就是让 Airbnb 真正关闭并逃避竞争的原因。

Sarah Tavel: With B2B marketplaces what sometimes happens, like a labor marketplace, is that you have this homogeneity in the supply, where it's not clear that adding the next incremental unit of supply actually changes the experience for the demand side.

Sarah Tavel：在 B2B 市场中，有时会出现供应同质化的情况，例如劳动力市场，但不清楚添加下一个增量供应单位是否会真正改变需求方的体验。

And so at Mechanical Turk, whether Mechanical Turk has a hundred thousand Turkers or 5 million Turkers, it probably doesn't really change the experience for somebody who is using Mechanical Turk.

因此，在 Mechanical Turk 中，无论 Mechanical Turk 拥有 10 万 Turker 还是 500 万 Turker，它可能都不会真正改变 Mechanical Turk 用户的体验。

And that's why in the early days, a Mechanical Turk, you saw a lot of other copycats or clones of Mechanical Turk doing something similar because it didn't take that much supply for them to be able to create an experience for a segment of the market that was as good as the already scaled Mechanical Turk.

这就是为什么在早期的 Mechanical Turk 中，你会看到许多其他的 Mechanical Turk 模仿者或克隆人在做类似的事情，因为他们不需要那么多的供应就能够为细分市场创造与已经规模化的 Mechanical Turk 一样好的体验。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

I'm glad we got into that.

我很高兴我们参与其中。

We're getting real dirty about marketplaces.

我们对市场越来越了解。

Exactly what I was hoping for.

这正是我所希望的。

You said that you had something else you wanted to share along these lines.

您说您还有其他一些想要分享的内容。

Sarah Tavel: And there's so many other examples of reasons why a marketplace won't tip competition.

莎拉·塔维尔：还有很多其他例子可以说明市场不会颠覆竞争的原因。

Again, you're a food delivery company and you go after the suburbs where there's no competition.

再说一次，你是一家食品配送公司，你的目标是没有竞争的郊区。

That makes your job really easy to tip the market.

这使得你的工作很容易影响市场。

You go to New York City where you have an entrenched competitor of Grubhub plus Seamless Web, a different culture around delivery where the restaurants mostly have their own delivery fleets, and it's just going to be so much harder for you to tip that market.

你去纽约，那里有 Grubhub 和 Seamless Web 的根深蒂固的竞争对手，这是一种不同的送货文化，餐馆大多都有自己的送货车队，对你来说，要影响这个市场会变得更加困难。

And so, I think you have to be really context aware when you're building a marketplace of what your competition's going to be so that you see if there is a path for you to actually tip the market.

因此，我认为，当你建立一个市场时，你必须真正了解你的竞争对手的情况，这样你才能看到是否有一条道路可以真正引导市场。

Lenny: And even if you've tipped the market, it may get untipped, like Uber comes in and starts to eat your lunch, no pun intended.

莱尼：即使你给市场带来了影响，市场也可能不会受到影响，就像 Uber 进来并开始吃掉你的午餐一样，这不是双关语。

It doesn't last forever.

它不会永远持续下去。

You have to keep fighting for it.

你必须继续为之奋斗。

Sarah Tavel: Well, and it's such an important point, which is that you can never rest on your laurels when you're building a marketplace.

莎拉·塔维尔：嗯，这是非常重要的一点，那就是当你建立一个市场时，你永远不能满足于现状。

The history of places is one in which you have a marketplace that feels dominant and then gets disrupted by a competitor.

地方的历史是这样的：你拥有一个感觉占主导地位的市场，然后被竞争对手扰乱。

HomeAway, VRBO being disrupted by the likes of you at Airbnb.

HomeAway、VRBO 正被 Airbnb 的你们这样的人颠覆。

Lenny: I wish I could take credit for all that.

莱尼：我希望这一切都是我的功劳。

Yeah, so one way I think about it is you're talking about this idea of tipping is, a simple way to think about if tipping is happening, if you're tipping it successfully, is percentage of your growth that's starting to come from organic word of mouth, people just becoming like, "This is the default way I'm going to order food, travel, book a ride."

是的，所以我想到的一种方式是，你谈论的小费想法是，一种简单的方法来思考是否发生小费，如果你成功地给小费，你的增长百分比开始来自有机口碑，人们就会变得像，“这是我订餐、旅行、预订乘车的默认方式。”

Sarah Tavel: I think you see two things.

莎拉·塔维尔：我认为你看到了两件事。

You see one, the cohorts getting better.

你可以看到，队伍正在变得更好。

So people start using you more.

所以人们开始更多地使用你。

As the supply side gets more diverse, you have more and more use cases that you start to be able to serve.

随着供应方变得更加多样化，您开始能够提供越来越多的用例。

And so you get the demand side leaning in more, the cohorts get better.

因此，需求方会更加倾向于，群体会变得更好。

And then to your point, you have the organic growth that happens where you don't have to fight to get each new participant on both sides of your market.

然后就您的观点而言，您无需努力争取市场双方的每个新参与者，就可以实现有机增长。

There's something that starts to happen where the value proposition is just so strong relative to any other substitute that the market starts coming to you.

当价值主张相对于任何其他替代品如此强大时，就会出现一些事情，以至于市场开始向你涌来。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

So essentially, cohort retention starts going up because more and more valuable, and more people are coming to you, just word of mouth or through some loops that you built.

因此，从本质上讲，队列保留率开始上升，因为越来越有价值，越来越多的人来找你，只是通过口口相传或通过你建立的一些循环。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

Anything else on this layer/level of the before?

之前的这一层/级别还有其他内容吗？

Lenny: Okay, cool.

莱尼：好的，酷。

Let's talk about dominating the marketplace and what that looks like, and how you do that.

让我们来谈谈主导市场以及它是什么样的，以及如何做到这一点。

How do you dominate a marketplace and win, Sarah Tavel?

莎拉·塔维尔，你如何主导市场并获胜？

Sarah Tavel: So yes, level three, and this is the one I feel like every founder who starts a marketplace, they're chomping at the bit to be able to really focus now on growth.

莎拉·塔维尔（Sarah Tavel）：是的，第三级，我觉得这是每一个创办市场的创始人，他们都在努力现在能够真正专注于增长。

Because all along, I feel like we've been holding you back of just, "Focus, focus, focus." And what you're doing through level one and level two as you're honing what you're building, is that you're basically building a playbook.

因为一直以来，我觉得我们一直在阻碍你“专注，专注，专注”。当你磨练你正在构建的东西时，你在第一级和第二级所做的就是基本上构建一个剧本。

You don't yet know whether this playbook is repeatable.

您还不知道这个剧本是否可以重复。

It's not always the case that the dynamics of one market is the same elsewhere.

一个市场的动态并不总是与其他市场相同。

I'll take REKKI as an example.

我以 REKKI 为例。

In the London food scene, there's significant fragmentation of suppliers.

在伦敦食品领域，供应商严重分散。

In the Berlin food scene, that's not the case.

在柏林的美食界，情况并非如此。

And so it's not always the case that whatever you did in one market works in another market, but usually there's something that rhymes.

因此，你在一个市场所做的任何事情并不总是在另一个市场上起作用，但通常会有一些押韵的东西。

There's a hint of what is going to work.

这里有一些行之有效的暗示。

Sarah Tavel: So what happens now is you have a market that's tipping, and the question then is, are you ready to take your eye off the ball and start to diffuse your focus into other markets?

莎拉·塔维尔：那么现在发生的情况是，你的市场正在发生倾斜，那么问题是，你准备好把注意力从球上移开，开始将注意力转移到其他市场吗？

So there's kind of three vectors then that any marketplace can grow at this point.

因此，任何市场此时都可以通过三个向量来增长。

Sarah Tavel: The first vector is within the existing market where you already are tipping that market.

莎拉·塔维尔（Sarah Tavel）：第一个向量是在现有市场内，你已经在引导该市场。

You as a founder then have to make a very personal decision, that what you're looking at is the context of your competitive situation.

作为创始人，你必须做出非常个人的决定，你所关注的是你的竞争形势的背景。

So if you're tipping a market and you have no other competitor going after that market, you're the first one to see this opportunity, then I think you have two things that you want to do at the same time to grow.

因此，如果你正在引领一个市场，并且没有其他竞争对手追随该市场，那么你是第一个看到这个机会的人，那么我认为你需要同时做两件事来实现增长。

Sarah Tavel: The first thing is that you want to take the existing market that you're in and you just keep doing what you're doing, and you may even find ways to stretch beyond that initial market that you're going after-

莎拉·塔维尔（Sarah Tavel）：首先，你想占领你所在的现有市场，然后继续做你正在做的事情，你甚至可能找到方法来超越你正在追求的最初市场——

Sarah Tavel: ...

莎拉·塔维尔：...

Beyond that initial market that you're going after, within the same market.

超出您所追求的初始市场，在同一个市场内。

And so, what I mean by that is Uber went from black cars to UberX to UberPool.

所以，我的意思是 Uber 从黑车变成了 UberX，再到 UberPool。

They kept on finding ways in the geographies where they were already dominant to keep on getting stronger by expanding the use cases that they serve.

他们不断在他们已经占据主导地位的地区寻找方法，通过扩大他们所服务的用例来继续变得更强。

So you have continuing to grow and penetrate the market, find ways to answer more use cases in that market that you can do, especially if you don't have a lot of competition.

因此，您必须继续发展和渗透市场，找到方法来回答该市场中您可以做的更多用例，尤其是在没有太多竞争的情况下。

And then, the third vector of growth is you want to then try to get as many plates spinning in as many markets that you can handle as quickly as possible.

然后，第三个增长向量是你想要尝试让尽可能多的板块在你能尽快处理的尽可能多的市场上运转。

And this is like the blitz scale, right?

这就像闪电战规模，对吧？

This is the land grab.

这就是抢地盘。

And again, your equity value that you're going to create is going to come from dominating the market.

再说一次，你要创造的股权价值将来自于市场的主导地位。

Sarah Tavel: And so you don't want to plant a thousand flags in a thousand markets at the same time, spread yourself too thin, and not decidedly win any one market.

莎拉·塔维尔：所以你不想同时在一千个市场插上一千面旗帜，把自己分散得太分散，而无法赢得任何一个市场。

You always want to put more wood behind fewer arrows.

你总是想在更少的箭后面放更多的木头。

The more scale that you have, the more cities or categories where you have the flywheel starting to spin and you're starting to see the tipping point happen, the stronger your company will be.

你的规模越大，飞轮开始转动的城市或类别越多，你开始看到临界点的发生，你的公司就会越强大。

Each market that you get, you have scale in, where you'll have contribution profit.

你获得的每个市场都有规模，你将在其中贡献利润。

You take that contribution profit, you invest it in new markets.

您将贡献的利润投资于新市场。

The more markets and contribution profit you have, the more venture capital you'll be able to raise, which you then reinvest in growing.

您拥有的市场和贡献利润越多，您就能筹集到越多的风险资本，然后您可以将其再投资于增长。

And so, this is really the place where you are, as aggressively as possible, while, at the same time, not losing sight of the fact that your goal is, in each market individually, to dominate that market, you're trying to grow into as much possible market opportunity as you possibly can.

因此，这确实是你所处的位置，尽可能积极进取，同时，不要忽视这样一个事实：你的目标是在每个市场中单独主导该市场，你正在努力成长为尽可能多的市场机会。

Lenny: And again, the reason this is so important is most founders that are ambitious start with this.

莱尼：再说一次，这一点之所以如此重要，是因为大多数雄心勃勃的创始人都是从这一点开始的。

They're just like, "Go big immediately, blitz scale.

他们就像是，“立即做大，闪电战。

We need to win fast before anyone catches up." And so, again, it's a reminder that's the final step, once you've done these other two steps.

我们需要在任何人追上之前快速获胜。”因此，再次提醒您，一旦您完成了其他两个步骤，这是最后一步。

Sarah Tavel: Yes, and it's such an important point, because don't forget, you're always going to be vulnerable to competition.

莎拉·塔维尔：是的，这是非常重要的一点，因为不要忘记，你总是容易受到竞争的影响。

And so, let's say you have a million dollars, and you spread that million dollars of go-to-market costs across 10 cities, spreading yourself really thin.

因此，假设您有 100 万美元，您将这 100 万美元的上市成本分摊到 10 个城市，这样您的分摊就非常薄弱。

You have a competitor come in, and guess what?

你有一个竞争对手进来，你猜怎么着？

They put a million dollars into one city, they're going to win that city, and that's going to set them up for greater success down the road, to keep on being able to get more capital and more expense that they can put to work to grow those cities.

他们向一个城市投入一百万美元，他们将赢得那个城市，这将使他们在未来取得更大的成功，继续获得更多的资本和更多的费用，用于发展这些城市。

And of course, we never have one competitor.

当然，我们从来没有竞争对手。

Always have a lot of competitors.

总是有很多竞争对手。

And so, focus on these steps is just, it really is such an important thing to have discipline around.

因此，专注于这些步骤只是，遵守纪律确实是一件非常重要的事情。

Lenny: And this is the reason that Uber went big and raised so much money, invested so much to scale so fast, versus Lyft.

莱尼：与 Lyft 相比，这就是 Uber 规模扩大、融资如此之多、投资如此之多、规模如此之快的原因。

Same with DoorDash versus Uber.

DoorDash 与 Uber 的对比也是如此。

Basically, they're both trying to dominate.

基本上，他们都想占据主导地位。

Neither one, I guess, Uber, I don't know if it's safe to say, seems to have won in the market.

我想，优步（我不知道是否可以肯定地说）似乎都没有在市场上获胜。

DoorDash versus Uber Eats still very one and two-ish.

DoorDash 与 Uber Eats 的比较仍然是一两个。

So I think a lot of people look at these companies, they're like, "They raise so much money, they're losing so much money, they're never going to work." But they do this, because to build a durable business and to get the benefits of the idea of what the marketplace they built, they need to dominate, they need to be number one by far.

所以我认为很多人看着这些公司，他们会想，“他们筹集了这么多钱，但他们却亏损了这么多钱，他们永远不会工作。”但他们这样做是因为为了建立一个持久的业务并从他们所建立的市场理念中获益，他们需要占据主导地位，他们需要成为迄今为止的第一。

And it doesn't mean it always works.

这并不意味着它总是有效。

DoorDash, even though they're bigger than Uber Eats, from what I understand, they're not like...

DoorDash，尽管它们比 Uber Eats 更大，但据我了解，它们并不像……

I don't know, would you consider they're dominant?

不知道你觉得他们占主导地位吗？

Or is it still a big challenge?

或者说这仍然是一个很大的挑战？

Sarah Tavel: I don't know.

莎拉·塔维尔：我不知道。

I don't know.

我不知道。

What is clear is that they've built an incredible company.

显而易见的是，他们已经建立了一家令人难以置信的公司。

It's just an incredible...

这简直是不可思议的...

They've done an incredible job of doing what they do, and it is a crowded market still.

他们在所做的事情上做了令人难以置信的工作，而且这仍然是一个拥挤的市场。

Lenny: So you can still build a great business, even if you don't dominate, dominate.

莱尼：所以你仍然可以建立一个伟大的企业，即使你不占主导地位，占主导地位。

It's just you won't make as much money, nearly as much profit, basically, your cash flow.

只是你不会赚那么多钱，几乎没有那么多利润，基本上就是你的现金流。

Lenny: Something that you all at Benchmark are really big on, which I think would be interesting to talk about, is the TAM not being as big a deal as people think.

Lenny：Benchmark 所有人都非常关注的一点是，TAM 并不像人们想象的那么重要，我认为谈论这一点会很有趣。

So a lot of times, there's a lot of marketplaces that start very small, and there's a fear that the market is just not going to be big enough for them to build a massive business long-term.

所以很多时候，有很多市场一开始都很小，人们担心市场不够大，无法长期建立大规模业务。

And you all don't worry about that as much as a lot of other investors, where the market itself isn't a huge killer of investing.

你们并不像许多其他投资者那样担心这一点，因为市场本身并不是投资的巨大杀手。

Sarah Tavel: I would underline it even, which is that we get excited about the markets, the opportunities, that might seem small from the outside.

莎拉·塔维尔：我什至想强调一点，那就是我们对市场和机会感到兴奋，而这些从外部看来可能很小。

Lenny: I love it.

莱尼：我喜欢。

Can you speak to that and help people understand ?

您能谈谈并帮助人们理解吗？

Sarah Tavel: You remember the early days of Airbnb like, "How big could this get?"

Sarah Tavel：你还记得 Airbnb 早期的情况，“这能发展到多大？”

Lenny: Yeah, I wasn't there that early.

莱尼：是啊，我没那么早到。

Sarah Tavel: Yeah, but you knew of it, and Etsy also underestimated for years and years and years.

Sarah Tavel：是的，但你知道这一点，Etsy 也多年来一直低估了这一点。

Hipcamp, that was part of what excited us is that it was this market that was actually much bigger than people would have thought from the outside.

Hipcamp 是令我们兴奋的一部分，因为这个市场实际上比人们从外部想象的要大得多。

And the wonderful thing about going after these underestimated markets is that they don't have competition in the beginning.

追逐这些被低估的市场的美妙之处在于，它们一开始就没有竞争。

And so, you have more of the elements of being able to operate into a market and tip the market towards you, when you don't have competition.

因此，当你没有竞争时，你拥有更多能够进入市场并使市场向你倾斜的要素。

And so, we love these types of markets, and we always say, to the founders out there, if other people are telling you the market's too small, we would love to get to know you.

因此，我们喜欢这些类型的市场，我们总是对创始人说，如果其他人告诉你市场太小，我们很想了解你。

Lenny: I think a lot of founders will love hearing this.

莱尼：我想很多创始人都会喜欢听到这个。

I think it's also important to add something you've shared with me is it's important for there to be adjacent markets that are big, for you to have the potential to expand it to .

我认为添加您与我分享的一些内容也很重要，因为相邻的市场很大，您有潜力将其扩展到 。

Sarah Tavel: Right.

莎拉·塔维尔：对。

And yeah, it's such an important point.

是的，这是非常重要的一点。

The market itself, it can't be a cul-de-sac.

市场本身，不可能是死胡同。

You need to start somewhere that has the potential to grow beyond that, but in the beginning, it's going to look small.

你需要从有潜力超越这一点的地方开始，但在一开始，它看起来很小。

Let me give you the example of Hipcamp.

让我以 Hipcamp 为例。

Hipcamp, when we invested, was literally land.

当我们投资时，Hipcamp 确实是土地。

It was land where people...

那是一片土地，人们...

I don't know, Lenny, if you're a camper.

我不知道，莱尼，你是不是露营者。

I unfortunately am...

不幸的是我是...

Lenny: Yeah, I love Hipcamp by the way.

Lenny：是的，顺便说一句，我喜欢 Hipcamp。

Sarah Tavel: Okay, well, amazing.

莎拉·塔维尔：好吧，太棒了。

Well, if you have a tent and a sleeping bag and you're not afraid to put your thermos in a running river and clean the water, then that was the early days of Hipcamp.

好吧，如果你有一个帐篷和一个睡袋，并且不怕将热水瓶放入流淌的河流中并净化水，那么这就是 Hipcamp 的早期阶段。

It was for the hardcore camper, which itself, feels like a very small market.

这是针对硬核露营车的，而硬核露营车本身感觉就像一个非常小的市场。

It's not actually that small, but it is a smaller market than other people might themselves get comfortable with.

它实际上并没有那么小，但它的市场比其他人可能适应的要小。

But then, what would happen is that hosts on Hipcamp, and I stayed at one of these Hipcamps, and it's just such an incredible experience, the host started to make a little bit of money from Hipcamp.

但后来发生的事情是，Hipcamp 上有房东，我住在其中一个 Hipcamp，这真是一次令人难以置信的经历，房东开始从 Hipcamp 赚一点钱。

And they took that money, and they started to invest in structures on their land.

他们拿了这笔钱，开始投资在他们的土地上建造建筑物。

So in the beginning, maybe it was a fire pit or a bathroom or shower, and then, it became a tree house or a yurt.

所以一开始，也许它是一个火坑、浴室或淋浴间，然后，它变成了树屋或蒙古包。

Sarah Tavel: And so, what happened with Hipcamp is that, in the beginning, it was going after this very different market segment, but as they became successful, made their landowners money, those landowners invested that money back into their land and started to open up the market opportunity for Hipcamp, into people more like me, that are glampers, that want that experience in nature, but maybe don't want to pitch a tent to have it.

莎拉·塔维尔：所以，Hipcamp 的情况是，一开始，它瞄准的是这个非常不同的细分市场，但随着他们取得成功，为土地所有者赚到了钱，这些土地所有者将这些钱重新投资到他们的土地上，并开始为 Hipcamp 开放市场机会，为像我这样的人打开市场机会，他们是豪华的，想要在大自然中体验这种体验，但可能不想搭帐篷来获得它。

And so, that's kind of one of those examples of an underestimated market that ends up growing beyond that.

因此，这就是被低估的市场最终增长超出预期的例子之一。

There's warning stories here too.

这里也有一些警告故事。

I always think of Etsy.

我总是想起 Etsy。

So Etsy, I remember, actually, when I was at Pinterest, being driven crazy by Etsy, because Etsy was all about handmade goods.

所以 Etsy，我记得，实际上，当我在 Pinterest 时，我被 Etsy 逼疯了，因为 Etsy 都是手工制品。

But as they were running up to going public, they started to chase GMV.

但当他们临近上市时，他们开始追逐GMV。

And what that looked like is that they started to have a lot of mass produced goods on Etsy.

看起来他们开始在 Etsy 上大量生产商品。

Sarah Tavel: It drove me crazy at Pinterest, because there was this one seller of these scarves, that was clearly a mass produced scarves, and they were spamming Pinterest constantly with pins of those scarves.

莎拉·塔维尔（Sarah Tavel）：这让我在 Pinterest 上发疯了，因为有一个销售这些围巾的卖家，那显然是批量生产的围巾，他们不断地在 Pinterest 上发送这些围巾别针的垃圾邮件。

And it was just very clear that Etsy had kind of lost its way in that moment.

很明显，Etsy 在那一刻有点迷失了方向。

They would start to chase GMV growth.

他们将开始追求 GMV 的增长。

They were going beyond what they actually stood for, and they ended up having a real reaction from the sellers that were making handmade goods and the buyers.

他们超越了他们的实际立场，最终得到了制作手工制品的卖家和买家的真实反应。

It was this big erosion of trust, and they ended up, I don't know if it was related, but it ended up precipitating, I think, a CEO change, to the CEO that is there now and who has obviously done an incredible job building Etsy from there.

这是对信任的巨大侵蚀，他们最终，我不知道这是否相关，但我认为，它最终导致了首席执行官的更替，现在的首席执行官显然在建立 Etsy 方面做出了令人难以置信的工作。

Lenny: Yeah, we had the VP of product from Etsy on the podcast.

Lenny：是的，我们的播客中有来自 Etsy 的产品副总裁。

And we talked about that actually, what that transition was like, because it was pretty dramatic.

我们实际上讨论了这个转变是什么样的，因为它非常戏剧性。

They went from very warm, fuzzy, cozy vibes to, "We need to build a business that lasts.

他们从非常温暖、模糊、舒适的氛围转变为“我们需要建立一个持久的业务。

Let's change the way we operate." While we're on this topic of what gets you excited about marketplaces, this is something Mike suggested I ask you, so I love that you get excited when it's a small market, very contrarian, what else, when founders are pitching you, let's say with a marketplace, what else do you look for?

让我们改变我们的运作方式。”当我们谈论什么让你对市场感到兴奋这个话题时，这是迈克建议我问你的，所以我喜欢你在市场很小、非常逆向思维时感到兴奋，还有什么，当创始人向你推销时，比方说，对于一个市场，你还寻找什么？

Whatever you can share off the top of your head that you look for that gets you excited about marketplace.

无论您想分享什么，您所寻找的东西都会让您对市场感到兴奋。

Sarah Tavel: It's a couple things.

莎拉·塔维尔：有几件事。

One is, and I'm thinking actually of one founder I met recently, where there's that earned secret, where they see a market opportunity that other people are overlooking, that hasn't been addressed.

一个是，我实际上想到的是我最近遇到的一位创始人，那里有一个赢得秘密的地方，他们看到了其他人忽视的市场机会，但尚未得到解决。

Maybe there's a reason why it hasn't been addressed in the past, but now is the moment, there's something changing that's creating a current in the market.

也许过去这个问题没有得到解决是有原因的，但现在是时候了，一些变化正在市场上产生一股潮流。

We could talk about currents later, if we want to, but that there's something that's creating momentum in the market, that's opening up an opportunity for this marketplace to exist.

如果我们愿意的话，我们可以稍后讨论当前的情况，但有一些东西正在市场中创造动力，为这个市场的存在提供了机会。

And for whatever reason, that founder is the person who sees it.

无论出于何种原因，创始人都是看到它的人。

And it's kind of one of those things that, once you see it, you're like, "How does it still work this way?" And it makes so much sense for somebody to come in and do something about it.

这是一种这样的事情，一旦你看到它，你就会想，“它怎么仍然这样工作？”有人介入并为此做点什么是非常有意义的。

And then, the second thing that always just deeply resonates, and it's obvious at this point why this would be true, is a founder then that really has focus.

然后，第二件事总是能引起深刻的共鸣，而且在这一点上很明显为什么这是真的，那就是一位真正有重点的创始人。

Sarah Tavel: And it's kind of back to focusing their ambition, like a laser beam, as opposed to this broad sun trying to do everything.

莎拉·塔维尔（Sarah Tavel）：这有点像激光束一样，重新聚焦他们的野心，而不是像太阳一样试图做所有事情。

And so, you really feel like they're focused on the right things, and that actually leads to the third thing, which is you really feel, when a founder is either trying to fool you or fool themselves with vanity metrics, versus the true intellectual honesty and the intellectual rigor of, "What's really working in my business?

所以，你真的觉得他们专注于正确的事情，这实际上导致了第三件事，即当创始人试图愚弄你或用虚荣指标欺骗自己时，你真正的感觉，而不是真正的智力诚实和智力严谨，“什么在我的企业中真正起作用？

What's not working?

什么不起作用？

Where are we focused to make that the best it can be?" And man, that is always, that's how you build long-term, enduring value, and it's something that I think it's consistent across all the founders I'm lucky enough to work with.

我们要重点关注哪些方面才能做到最好？”伙计，这始终是你建立长期、持久价值的方式，我认为这是我有幸与之共事的所有创始人都一致的。

Lenny: What I love about this answer is something I often say about marketplaces is that most of your problems are not marketplace problems or questions.

莱尼：我喜欢这个答案的一点是我经常对市场说的话，那就是你的大多数问题都不是市场问题或疑问。

It's just what every startup has to deal with.

这正是每个初创公司必须面对的问题。

So what you shared is basically an earned secret, which will apply to any business, which maybe emerges a current in a wave that you can ride, having great focus and also focusing on the right metrics.

因此，您分享的基本上是一个赢得的秘密，这适用于任何企业，这可能会在您可以驾驭的浪潮中出现一股潮流，高度集中注意力并专注于正确的指标。

I 100% agree.

我100%同意。

And it's also interesting, it could be a marketplace, it cannot be, and I think people often overweight how much...

这也很有趣，它可能是一个市场，但它不可能是，我认为人们经常超重多少......

"I'm building a marketplace and I need to think of everything," from this marketplace perspective versus 95% of your challenges, questions, hurdles are going to be just whatever startup has to deal with.

“我正在建立一个市场，我需要考虑一切”，从这个市场的角度来看，95% 的挑战、问题、障碍都将是初创公司必须应对的。

And then, there's a bit of specific to marketplace.

然后，还有一些特定于市场的内容。

Sarah Tavel: And I want to just double click on the current thing, because it's very related, which is a lot of people, and this is back to maybe our contrarian take on markets, I think a lot of people think about markets almost like these bodies of water.

莎拉·塔维尔：我想双击当前的事情，因为它非常相关，这涉及很多人，这可能又回到了我们对市场的逆向看法，我认为很多人认为市场几乎就像这些水体一样。

And it's like, "Oh, it's this big body of water that we're going after." And I actually think that the most interesting markets, you have to think of them like currents, where there's something happening in the market that's creating this current, where you can have a plank of wood that you've put on the river and it's going to pull you forward, versus a market that doesn't really have that momentum to it, you're going to have to build something really big and fancy to make any progress.

就像，“哦，我们要寻找的就是这么大的水体。”事实上，我认为最有趣的市场，你必须把它们想象成水流，市场上发生的事情正在创造这种水流，你可以在河上放一块木板，它会拉你前进，而在一个没有这种动力的市场中，你将不得不建造一些非常大和奇特的东西才能取得任何进展。

And that's why we care less about market size, because really, what you're looking for when you're looking at a market are what are the dynamics of change, what's the current and momentum that's going to pull the company and make the job easier for the founders to actually build something that endures?

这就是为什么我们不太关心市场规模，因为实际上，当你关注市场时，你所寻找的是变化的动态，什么是当前和动力，将拉动公司并使创始人更容易真正建立持久的东西？

Lenny: Essentially, "Why now?" is how a lot of people think about this, right?

莱尼：本质上是“为什么是现在？”很多人都是这么想的，对吗？

Lenny: I love just the visual of a current.

莱尼：我只是喜欢水流的视觉效果。

There's a startup I invested in, as an example of the opposite, that's a crypto marketplace sort of thing.

我投资了一家初创公司，作为相反的例子，这是一个加密市场之类的东西。

And they started it when crypto was really great, and they continued building it as crypto winter emerged.

当加密货币非常伟大时，他们就开始了它，并在加密货币冬天出现时继续构建它。

And they just realized, "Our timing, this is not the time to build a crypto company, that's new, that's trying to compete with who's out there." And so, it's an example of the...

他们刚刚意识到，“我们的时机，现在不是建立一家加密货币公司的时候，它是新的，试图与现有的公司竞争。”所以，这是一个例子......

You got to recognize when the wave is going the opposite direction and everything is pulling you away from success.

你必须认识到，什么时候浪潮正朝相反的方向发展，一切都会让你远离成功。

The opposite of what you're describing.

与你所描述的相反。

Sarah Tavel: Yes.

莎拉·塔维尔：是的。

I might have a nuance there, because I think crypto is too broad of a way to describe it.

我可能有一些细微差别，因为我认为用加密货币来描述它的方式太宽泛了。

If you said it was a DeFi crypto company, then yes, definitely, with treasuries where they are, the opportunity in DeFi isn't as material as it once was, which stablecoins, I'm a huge believer in stablecoins, and I think that's a market where we have a real current.

如果你说它是一家 DeFi 加密公司，那么是的，当然，随着国库券的存在，DeFi 的机会不再像以前那样重要，这是稳定币，我是稳定币的忠实信徒，我认为这是一个我们拥有真正电流的市场。

With inflation and so many local currencies, there's real demand for stablecoins, the US dollar stablecoin, that comes in many different shapes and forms, that is something that I believe has a very strong current right now, that I'm actually quite excited about.

由于通货膨胀和如此多的当地货币，对稳定币、美元稳定币有真正的需求，它有多种不同的形式和形式，我认为现在有一个非常强劲的趋势，我对此感到非常兴奋。

Lenny: Oh, interesting.

莱尼：哦，有趣。

Yeah, I should have been clear.

是的，我应该说得很清楚。

It's like a very specific part of crypto that's just not happening too much, versus what it was.

这就像加密货币的一个非常具体的部分，与过去相比，它只是没有发生太多。

Okay, we've gone totally off track.

好吧，我们完全偏离了轨道。

So let me come back to our track and see what else you wanted to share around the hierarchy of marketplaces either on the top...

因此，让我回到我们的轨道，看看您还想在顶部的市场层次结构中分享什么......

Lenny: I have a couple more questions sort of related, but I guess, is there anything else that you wanted to say about the hierarchy of marketplaces?

莱尼：我还有几个相关的问题，但我想，关于市场的层次结构，您还有什么想说的吗？

Sarah Tavel: Maybe just this kind of the coda, which is like you can never rest on your laurels, and we talked about this already, but the history of marketplaces is one of disruption.

莎拉·塔维尔（Sarah Tavel）：也许这就是尾声，就像你永远不能安于现状，我们已经讨论过这一点，但市场的历史就是一场颠覆。

And the idea with happiness is that, and Amazon and Bezos talk about this, which is expectations, consumer expectations, are constantly going up.

幸福的想法是，亚马逊和贝佐斯谈到这一点，即期望，消费者的期望，正在不断上升。

And so, if you ever stagnate in the experience that you give to the consumer, guess what?

因此，如果您为消费者提供的体验停滞不前，您猜怎么着？

You're going to get disrupted.

你会受到干扰。

And the examples of we talked about with Airbnb and HomeAway, DoorDash, and Grubhub, Grubhub wasn't able to, for different reasons, they were a public company, and so, they couldn't access capital in the same way that the private markets could.

我们讨论的例子包括 Airbnb 和 HomeAway、DoorDash 和 Grubhub，Grubhub 由于不同的原因而无法获得资金，他们是一家上市公司，因此他们无法像私人市场那样获得资本。

But they were too slow to change the atomic unit of their supply to have delivery that they fulfilled.

但他们改变供应原子单位的速度太慢，无法完成交付。

And so, they got disrupted by the DoorDash, Uber Eats of the world.

因此，他们被 DoorDash、Uber Eats 等世界各地的公司打乱了。

And so, you just can't rest on your laurels.

所以，你不能安于现状。

Expectations constantly go up.

期望不断上升。

And it's part of what's so exciting about this market that we play in.

这也是我们所涉足的这个市场令人兴奋的部分原因。

Lenny: I think Grubhub is a great example of that, where they were the first really successful food delivery company, and then, even with network effects, by far, the best way to order.

Lenny：我认为 Grubhub 就是一个很好的例子，他们是第一家真正成功的食品配送公司，而且即使有网络效应，也是迄今为止最好的订购方式。

And then, DoorDash comes around and wins, because they go bigger and spend a lot of money that Grubhub wasn't willing to spend.

然后，DoorDash 出现并获胜，因为他们规模更大，花了很多 Grubhub 不愿意花的钱。

Awesome.

惊人的。

So I guess the advice there is just don't take for granted your success, even if you have amazing network effects.

所以我想这里的建议就是不要认为你的成功是理所当然的，即使你拥有惊人的网络效应。

Lenny: Okay.

莱尼：好的。

So as we were chatting about this conversation, something you mentioned is that, even if you're not building a marketplace, these lessons are actually still useful.

因此，当我们谈论这次对话时，您提到的是，即使您没有建立市场，这些经验教训实际上仍然有用。

So say you're building an open source product or a social network or even a SaaS startup, a lot of these sort of lessons can still apply.

因此，假设您正在构建开源产品或社交网络，甚至是 SaaS 初创公司，许多此类经验仍然适用。

What advice would you have for people that have heard what you just shared, but aren't necessarily building a marketplace?

对于那些听过您刚才分享的内容但不一定要建立市场的人，您有什么建议？

What are some of the takeaways as well?

还有哪些要点？

Sarah Tavel: At Benchmark, I'm lucky that I have partners who look at very different types of companies that I look at, and we meet such a incredible breadth of founders.

Sarah Tavel：在 Benchmark，我很幸运，我的合作伙伴关注的公司类型与我所关注的公司类型非常不同，而且我们遇到了如此广泛的创始人。

And what you just realize, again and again, is that these same lessons hold.

你一次又一次地意识到，这些教训同样有效。

With open source, it's about solving a specific developer's need in the beginning and solving it really freaking well, and then, expanding from there.

对于开源来说，它是从一开始就解决特定开发人员的需求，并非常好地解决它，然后从那里开始扩展。

With SaaS, I think maybe the fascinating exception, kind of similar to your Thumbtack exception, I think what Parker Conrad's doing with Rippling and this idea of a compound startup is very different.

对于 SaaS，我认为这可能是一个令人着迷的例外，有点类似于你的 Thumbtack 例外，我认为 Parker Conrad 对 Rippling 所做的事情和复合型初创公司的想法非常不同。

And actually, he has a level of ambition that is both the sun and a laser at the same time.

事实上，他的野心既是太阳又是激光。

And so, that's kind of, in a rare founder, you can have that level of execution, but again and again, what you see, and I think a lot of this, for new companies leveraging large language models to build products, is that focus on a constrained market to start is the way to win.

因此，在罕见的创始人中，你可以拥有这种水平的执行力，但一次又一次，你所看到的，我认为对于利用大型语言模型来构建产品的新公司来说，专注于有限的市场是获胜的方式。

Lenny: I like that.

莱尼：我喜欢这样。

Basically, it's happy developer in the case of DevTools or happy enterprise user, just get happy people using your product and coming back to it.

基本上，对于 DevTools 来说，开发者是快乐的，企业用户是快乐的，只要让人们快乐地使用你的产品并再次使用你的产品即可。

So I love that as a reminder.

所以我喜欢以此作为提醒。

One other question is you wrote this post on finding white space in building marketplace, basically someone that wants to build a marketplace, trying to figure out, where is there an opportunity for new marketplace?

另一个问题是，您写了这篇关于在构建市场中寻找空白的文章，基本上是一个想要构建市场的人，试图找出新市场的机会在哪里？

Do you have any advice for people, say, founders, potential founders, that are looking for ideas and opportunities to build a marketplace for how to find one?

您对那些正在寻找想法和机会来建立市场的人（例如创始人、潜在创始人）有什么建议吗？

Where do you think there's opportunity?

你觉得哪里有机会？

Sarah Tavel: It's kind of fun to ask the question whether LLMs change the game or open up new surface area.

Sarah Tavel：问法学硕士是否会改变游戏规则或开辟新的领域这个问题很有趣。

So in my post, I write about three ways that you can look for a new opportunity.

因此，在我的文章中，我写了三种寻找新机会的方法。

I think it was like, number one, you always find a horizontal marketplace and you find the kind of low NPS part of that segment and you create a marketplace around that.

我认为，第一，你总是会找到一个横向市场，你会发现该细分市场中 NPS 较低的部分，然后围绕它创建一个市场。

eBay, being a horizontal marketplace, the sneakers being a low NPS part of that, and you get GOAT.

eBay，作为一个横向市场，运动鞋是其中 NPS 较低的一部分，你会得到 GOAT。

The second is finding a niche that no one else is paying attention to.

第二是找到一个没有人关注的利基市场。

And the Etsy examples we gave, the Hipcamp stories, and bringing that online, taking friction away, and showing that it's actually a bigger market than you think.

我们提供的 Etsy 示例、Hipcamp 故事，并将其带到网上，消除摩擦，并表明它实际上是一个比您想象的更大的市场。

And then, the third is changing the atomic unit of the supply.

然后，第三个是改变供应的原子单位。

So that kind of like Grubhub, the atomic unit there was a restaurant that has its own delivery fleet, and then, Postmates, DoorDash, Uber Eats came in and said, "Actually, it's any restaurant, we'll provide the delivery fleet."

就像 Grubhub 一样，原子单位有一家餐厅拥有自己的送货车队，然后 Postmates、DoorDash、Uber Eats 进来并说，“实际上，任何餐厅，我们都会提供送货车队。”

Sarah Tavel: And so, they opened up the available supply.

莎拉·塔维尔：因此，他们开放了可用供应。

Now, when I think about LLMs, I think there's a real opportunity for the third one.

现在，当我想到法学硕士时，我认为第三个是真正的机会。

LLMs may make it possible to bring on a supply type that maybe the long tail, that was just, it was too much effort to reach out to them, onboard them, but maybe if you automate that work, you actually create an opportunity to expand the supply in a way that none of us can anticipate right now.

法学硕士可能会带来一种可能是长尾的供应类型，只是，接触他们、加入他们需要付出太多的努力，但也许如果你自动化这项工作，你实际上创造了一个机会，以我们现在谁都无法预料的方式扩大供应。

And then, who knows whether there's an opportunity with LLMs to create a better experience in one of these kind of low NPS segments of a market or a niche market itself, that makes it possible to bring it online.

然后，谁知道法学硕士是否有机会在此类低 NPS 细分市场或利基市场本身创造更好的体验，从而使其在线化成为可能。

So I haven't seen anything yet, but I am definitely on the hunt.

所以我还没有看到任何东西，但我肯定在寻找。

Lenny: Very cool.

莱尼：非常酷。

Turned into AI corner, which I love.

变成了我喜欢的AI角落。

Okay, well, with that, we reached our very exciting lightning round.

好吧，就这样，我们进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。

Are you ready?

你准备好了吗？

Lenny: What are two or three books that you've recommended most to other people?

莱尼：你向其他人推荐最多的两三本书是什么？

Sarah Tavel: Pachinko is one of the best fictional books I've read in a while.

莎拉·塔维尔：《弹球盘》是我最近读过的最好的小说之一。

I just loved it, and so, I highly recommend that.

我只是喜欢它，所以我强烈推荐它。

And then, to founders, I am a sucker for The Five Temptations of a CEO and The Five Dysfunctions of a Team.

然后，对于创始人来说，我很喜欢首席执行官的五种诱惑和团队的五种功能障碍。

It's kind of like you imagine those books in the grocery store aisle, but they're fast reads that are incredibly insightful and I highly recommend.

这有点像你想象的杂货店过道里的那些书，但它们读起来很快，具有令人难以置信的洞察力，我强烈推荐。

Lenny: Is there a favorite recent movie or TV show that you really enjoy?

莱尼：最近有没有你真正喜欢的最喜欢的电影或电视节目？

Sarah Tavel: I don't watch stuff, so I'm not a good candidate there.

Sarah Tavel：我不看东西，所以我不是一个好的候选人。

Lenny: I highly respect that.

莱尼：我非常尊重这一点。

Is there a favorite interview question that you like to ask candidates, which usually, we can transform into when you're talking to founders and trying to decide if you want to invest?

您有没有最喜欢问候选人的面试问题？通常，当您与创始人交谈并试图决定是否要投资时，我们可以将其转化为该问题？

Sarah Tavel: I always love hearing the journey people take and specifically how they've made decisions along the way, what drives them from each step.

莎拉·塔维尔（Sarah Tavel）：我总是喜欢听人们经历的旅程，特别是他们一路上如何做出决定，每一步的驱动力是什么。

I think that's always very illuminating.

我认为这总是很有启发性。

Lenny: Do you have a favorite product you've recently discovered that you really love, whether it's an app or physical product that you've used often?

Lenny：您最近发现有一款您真正喜欢的最喜欢的产品吗？无论是应用程序还是您经常使用的实体产品？

Anything real cool or fun?

有什么真正酷或有趣的事情吗？

Sarah Tavel: I'll say we are late joiners to Tesla, my family.

莎拉·塔维尔（Sarah Tavel）：我想说，我们是特斯拉这个家庭的迟到者。

And man, it is one of those products that you use it for the first time, and you're just like, "I could see why I'd want to own equity in this company," not financial advice obviously, but it's just an awesome experience.

伙计，这是你第一次使用它的产品之一，你就像，“我明白为什么我想拥有这家公司的股权”，显然不是财务建议，但这只是一次很棒的体验。

Lenny: I completely agree.

莱尼：我完全同意。

I've gotten so used to, we have a regular car and a Tesla, and the fact that you don't need a key anymore, you just walk up and open it, because it has your phone...

我已经习惯了，我们有一辆普通汽车和一辆特斯拉，事实上你不再需要钥匙，你只需走上前打开它，因为它有你的手机......

My wife, she left the key in our Subaru, just because she's like, "Oh, shit, I need to take the key out." It's just sitting there running.

我的妻子，她把钥匙留在我们的斯巴鲁里，只是因为她说，“哦，该死，我需要把钥匙拿出来。”它只是坐在那里跑步。

Yeah, you're so used to just the casual just walk up, open, you're good to go.

是的，你太习惯了，只要走上前，打开，就可以走了。

Awesome.

惊人的。

Do you have a favorite life motto that you often repeat to yourself, share with people, either in work or life, that you find useful?

您是否有一条最喜欢的人生格言，无论是在工作还是生活中，您经常对自己重复、与人分享，并且觉得有用？

Sarah Tavel: My partner at Greylock, Reid Hoffman, has this line of every strength has a corresponding weakness, and vice versa, and there's so much wisdom there.

Sarah Tavel：我在 Greylock 的合作伙伴 Reid Hoffman 认为，每种优势都有相应的劣势，反之亦然，这里面蕴含着很多智慧。

We see our own strengths and we see our weaknesses, but not realize that they actually go together.

我们看到自己的优点和缺点，但没有意识到它们实际上是相辅相成的。

You can't have one without the other.

两者缺一不可。

Similarly, strengths in organizations, like a decentralized organization can move really quickly, and the corresponding weakness of that is that it can feel chaotic and disorganized.

同样，像去中心化组织这样的组织的优势可以非常迅速地发展，而相应的弱点是它可能会让人感觉混乱和无组织。

On the other side, a centralized organization can feel really slow, but it is very intentional in the decision-making and the control of the experience.

另一方面，中心化组织可能会让人感觉非常缓慢，但它在决策和体验控制方面非常有意。

And so, everything has trade-offs, and realizing that, more often than not, they come together, it's just so useful to be aware of that.

因此，一切都有利弊，并且意识到，它们往往会结合在一起，意识到这一点非常有用。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

Final question.

最后一个问题。

I believe you played rugby at some point, is that right?

我相信你曾经打过橄榄球，对吗？

Lenny: Okay.

莱尼：好的。

Is there a rugby story that would be fun to share from your time playing rugby?

您打橄榄球时有什么有趣的橄榄球故事可以分享吗？

And if not, what should people know?

如果不是，人们应该知道什么？

What would surprise people about rugby, that they may not be aware of?

关于橄榄球，有哪些事情会让人们感到惊讶而他们可能没有意识到？

Sarah Tavel: Well, what people might be surprised of, especially if they meet me, is that I was actually a really good tackler, and I think I broke my nose a couple times and have more injuries than I would care to remember, but I definitely inflicted more injuries on other people than I received.

莎拉·塔维尔：嗯，人们可能会感到惊讶，尤其是当他们见到我时，我实际上是一个非常好的铲球手，我想我摔断了鼻子好几次，受伤的次数比我愿意记住的还要多，但我给其他人造成的伤害肯定比我受到的伤害还要多。

And I think rugby is, there's a camaraderie that comes with rugby, and the one thing I'll confess is that we always joke that the rugby team is, it's not a rugby team, it's a drinking team, that has a rugby problem.

我认为橄榄球是，橄榄球伴随着友情，我要承认的一件事是，我们总是开玩笑说橄榄球队，它不是一支橄榄球队，而是一支酗酒的球队，有橄榄球问题。

Lenny: Oh, man.

莱尼：哦，伙计。

It sounds like an awesome person to have in your court when you're a founder, the best tackler in town.

当你是一名创始人、城里最好的铲球手时，你的球场上有一个很棒的人，这听起来像是一个很棒的人。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

Sarah, I'm not surprised this went as long as it did.

莎拉，这种情况持续这么久我并不感到惊讶。

Thank you so much for being here.

非常感谢您来到这里。

Two final questions.

最后两个问题。

Where can folks find you online if they want to reach out and maybe ask follow-up questions?

如果人们想要联系您并询问后续问题，可以在哪里找到您？

And how can listeners be useful to you?

听众如何对你有用？

Sarah Tavel: I appreciate that.

莎拉·塔维尔：我很欣赏这一点。

I'm Sarah at Benchmark.

我是 Benchmark 的莎拉。

I'm on Twitter, Sarah Tavel, and I have a Substack, SarahTavel.com.

我在 Twitter 上，Sarah Tavel，我有一个子堆栈，SarahTavel.com。

If you're a founder, you're working on something, don't be shy.

如果您是创始人，您正在做某事，请不要害羞。

We're in the business of meeting with people like you, and so, I always love to get stimulated by new ideas and people.

我们的工作就是与像您这样的人会面，因此，我总是喜欢受到新想法和新人的刺激。

Lenny: Just to focus people even more there, is there stage you like, is there markets, anything people should know of what's right for you?

Lenny：只是为了让人们更加关注那里，是否有你喜欢的舞台，是否有市场，人们应该知道什么适合你？

Sarah Tavel: We, at Benchmark, we're early stage.

Sarah Tavel：在 Benchmark，我们正处于早期阶段。

We're an early stage firm.

我们是一家早期公司。

We aspire to be first board member.

我们渴望成为第一位董事会成员。

Usually, it looks like the series A, and that's really where our sweet spot is.

通常，它看起来像 A 系列，而这确实是我们的最佳点。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

Sarah, thank you so much for being here.

莎拉，非常感谢你来到这里。

Lenny: Bye, everyone.

莱尼：再见，大家。

Thank you so much for listening.

非常感谢您的聆听。

If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.

如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review, as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.

您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。