Why Uber’s CPO delivers food on weekends | Sachin Kansal
Lenny: I feel incredibly lucky to have gotten to work with Sanchan while I was at Airbnb.
Lenny：我在 Airbnb 工作期间能与 Sanchan 合作，我感到非常幸运。
He joined Airbnb as a director of product and quickly moved up the ranks to head of product for all of Airbnb.
他加入 Airbnb 担任产品总监，并迅速晋升为整个 Airbnb 的产品主管。
Before Airbnb, he spent almost four years at Instagram as head of product for Instagram Ads, and then he created and led the Instagram Shopping product and team.
在加入 Airbnb 之前，他在 Instagram 工作了近四年，担任 Instagram 广告产品主管，然后创建并领导了 Instagram 购物产品和团队。
Lenny: Before that he was director of product at Yahoo and a PM at Microsoft.
Lenny：在此之前，他曾担任雅虎产品总监和微软产品经理。
And today he's the VP of product at Coinbase.
如今，他是 Coinbase 的产品副总裁。
I don't think I've worked with a harder working PM, particularly someone who's incredibly kind and nice and generous.
我不认为我曾与一位工作更努力的总理共事过，尤其是一位非常友善、友善和慷慨的总理。
Lenny: In my conversation with Sanchan, we cover what he's learned from working with some of today's best CEOs, including Brian Chesky, Brian Armstrong, Zuck and Kevin Systrom, what it was like inside Airbnb when COVID hit and how they made it through travel completely stopping, how to set up your product development process at a startup, tips for hiring amazing product managers, when to hire your first PM, when to A/B test and when not to, and so much more.
Lenny：在我与 Sanchan 的谈话中，我们介绍了他从与当今一些最优秀的首席执行官（包括 Brian Chesky、Brian Armstrong、Zuck 和 Kevin Systrom）合作中学到的东西，当新冠疫情袭来时，Airbnb 内部的情况如何，他们如何度过完全停止的旅行，如何在初创公司建立你的产品开发流程，聘用优秀产品经理的技巧，何时聘用你的第一位 PM，何时进行 A/B 测试，何时不进行等等。
Lenny: I hope you enjoy this episode as much as I did.
莱尼：我希望你和我一样喜欢这一集。
So many product managers are basically treated like project managers.
所以很多产品经理基本上都是像项目经理一样对待的。
You get higher thinking that you'll be deep in product strategy and vision, and getting to know your customers, only to wind up organizing other people's work and finding backlogs and optimizing tiny, tiny features.
你会更高地认为你会深入了解产品策略和愿景，并了解你的客户，结果却是组织其他人的工作、查找积压工作并优化微小的功能。
Lenny: If this sounds familiar, you need Dovetail.
莱尼：如果这听起来很熟悉，那么您需要燕尾榫。
Because Dovetail gets that the true heart of product management is understanding what customers want, why they want it and how to give it to them.
因为 Dovetail 知道产品管理的真正核心是了解客户想要什么、为什么想要它以及如何将其提供给他们。
That's why Dovetail built a suite of user research products that help you get to the core of what your customers really want and why they want it.
这就是为什么 Dovetail 构建了一套用户研究产品，帮助您了解客户真正想要什么以及他们想要什么的核心。
Lenny: Dovetail offers a suite of powerful analysis tools to help you identify themes, patterns and insights in your customer interviews, allowing you to make better, data informed decisions about what solutions you should build next.
Lenny：Dovetail 提供了一套强大的分析工具，可帮助您识别客户访谈中的主题、模式和见解，使您能够就下一步应该构建什么解决方案做出更好的、基于数据的决策。
Organizations all over the world, like Atlassian, Canva, Datadog, GitLab, Sketch, Nielsen Norman Group, and Deloitte use Dovetail to get a better understanding of their customers and build better products.
Atlassian、Canva、Datadog、GitLab、Sketch、Nielsen Norman Group 和 Deloitte 等世界各地的组织都使用 Dovetail 来更好地了解其客户并打造更好的产品。
Lenny: Try Dovetails products free for as long as you need.
Lenny：只要您需要，就可以免费试用 Dovetails 产品。
You can sign up right now and dive right in at Dovetailapp.com/lenny.
您可以立即注册并直接访问 Dovetailapp.com/lenny。
This episode is brought to you by Persona.
本集由 Persona 为您带来。
Persona helps founders, product managers and engineers easily solve any identity-related problem, including handling KYC, AML, and basically all manner of identity fraud.
Persona 帮助创始人、产品经理和工程师轻松解决任何与身份相关的问题，包括处理 KYC、AML 以及基本上所有形式的身份欺诈。
Lenny: You can integrate Persona in an afternoon and personalize your flows using their SDK to meet your users on any device.
Lenny：您可以在一个下午的时间内集成 Persona，并使用他们的 SDK 个性化您的流程，以满足任何设备上的用户需求。
Persona's identity building blocks allow you to manage your entire end-to-end onboarding flow, verifying that each new user and their data are legitimate.
Persona 的身份构建块允许您管理整个端到端入职流程，验证每个新用户及其数据是否合法。
Persona is trusted by both startups and the world's largest companies, including Square, Block5, Gusto and Udemy.
Persona 受到初创公司和全球最大公司的信任，包括 Square、Block5、Gusto 和 Udemy。
Lenny: And for a limited time, Persona is offering listeners of this podcast a free, end-to-end KYC and AML solution, where you can collect the user's government ID and, or their selfie, and automatically verify that those two pieces of data are legitimate.
Lenny：在有限的时间内，Persona 为该播客的听众提供免费的端到端 KYC 和 AML 解决方案，您可以在其中收集用户的政府 ID 和/或他们的自拍照，并自动验证这两项数据是否合法。
You can also enrich that information to automatically see if the person exists on various watch lists.
您还可以丰富该信息，以自动查看此人是否存在于各种监视列表中。
Just go to Withpersona.com/lenny to get started.
只需访问 Withpersona.com/lenny 即可开始。
Sanchan, welcome.
三灿，欢迎。
Thank you so much for being here.
非常感谢您来到这里。
Sanchan Saxena: Thank you, Lenny, for inviting me.
Sanchan Saxena：谢谢你，莱尼，邀请我。
Excited to be here and chat with you today.
很高兴今天能在这里与您聊天。
Lenny: Absolutely.
莱尼：当然。
My pleasure.
我的荣幸。
I was really lucky to work with you at Airbnb for many years, where you were a beloved product leader.
我非常幸运能在 Airbnb 与您共事多年，您是一位深受爱戴的产品领导者。
And then you went on to do bigger and better things now at Coinbase.
然后你继续在 Coinbase 做更大更好的事情。
And I'd love to just hear how you first got into product, and then just a little bit of your journey of how you got to where you're today, where you're basically head of product at Coinbase.
我很想听听您最初是如何进入产品领域的，然后简单介绍一下您是如何走到今天的，您基本上是 Coinbase 的产品主管。
Sanchan Saxena: Yeah, happy to answer.
Sanchan Saxena：是的，很高兴回答。
Maybe I'll go back in time and start from my first job.
也许我会回到过去，从我的第一份工作开始。
I was in my third year of engineering where the entrepreneurial bug caught me, so to say, bit me.
当时我正处于工程专业的第三年，创业的热情抓住了我，可以说，咬住了我。
And I took a little bit of sabbatical from my engineering, which by the way, was in aerospace engineering.
我从我的工程领域休了一点假，顺便说一句，是在航空航天工程领域。
Sanchan Saxena: I wanted to be an astronaut, go to space.
Sanchan Saxena：我想成为一名宇航员，去太空。
Unfortunately back then, there wasn't an Elon Musk for SpaceX.
不幸的是，当时 SpaceX 还没有埃隆·马斯克 (Elon Musk)。
If you wanted to go to space, you got to work for a government agency, which I didn't like.
如果你想去太空，你就必须为政府机构工作，这是我不喜欢的。
Fast forward that to my third year of engineering and I start my company, raised a bunch of money, hired some people.
快进到我工程专业的第三年，我创办了自己的公司，筹集了一大笔资金，雇用了一些人。
Sanchan Saxena: Didn't go as planned, so I , came back and finished my engineering and got a job at Microsoft, which made my mom very happy.
Sanchan Saxena：没有按计划进行，所以我回来完成了我的工程并在微软找到了一份工作，这让我妈妈非常高兴。
My mom said, "My son finally has a stable job.
我妈妈说：“我儿子终于有了一份稳定的工作。
What the heck he was doing running some companies?" But jokes aside, I got a job at Microsoft, which was a great starting position.
他到底在经营一些公司做什么？”但抛开笑话不谈，我在微软找到了一份工作，这是一个很好的起点。
Sanchan Saxena: I started in engineering.
Sanchan Saxena：我是从工程学开始的。
But within a year or so, I moved into product.
但在一年左右的时间里，我转向了产品领域。
And I moved to the Silicon Valley office of Microsoft.
我搬到了微软的硅谷办公室。
Never worked in Seattle, but always worked in Silicon Valley at Mountain View.
从未在西雅图工作过，但一直在硅谷山景城工作。
And I worked for this product called Hotmail.
我为这个名为 Hotmail 的产品工作。
I don't know how many people know this or not, but there's an email service called Hotmail.
我不知道有多少人知道这一点，但有一个电子邮件服务叫做 Hotmail。
I was one of the product people.
我是产品人员之一。
Lenny: Absolutely.
莱尼：当然。
It's scary that people may not even know what Hotmail is at this point.
可怕的是，人们现在可能甚至不知道 Hotmail 是什么。
Sanchan Saxena: Right?
Sanchan Saxena：对吗？
It's kind of crazy.
这有点疯狂。
Back in the day, it was pretty cool.
回到过去，那真是太酷了。
I worked there, and then since then have been in Silicon Valley.
我在那里工作，从那时起就一直在硅谷。
So moved into product back in, I think, 2005 or '06, something like that, and since then been in product.
所以我想是在 2005 年或 06 年，类似的事情，我才开始涉足产品领域，从那时起就一直涉足产品领域。
I've been very lucky and fortunate to have stumbled upon incredible opportunities all the way from Facebook and Instagram to Airbnb and Coinbase.
我非常幸运，能够偶然发现从 Facebook 和 Instagram 到 Airbnb 和 Coinbase 的难以置信的机会。
Sanchan Saxena: And fun fact, when I joined Instagram, it was still very small.
Sanchan Saxena：有趣的是，当我加入 Instagram 时，它还很小。
And it was less than, I think, 50 engineers or something like that.
我认为，工程师数量还不到 50 名之类的。
Very tiny.
非常小。
It was pre-revenue.
这是收入前的情况。
We made $0 in revenue.
我们的收入为 0 美元。
I still remember the day when Zuck told Kevin Systrom we got to go make revenue, and we made $0 back then.
我还记得扎克告诉凯文·斯特罗姆我们必须去赚钱的那一天，当时我们赚了 0 美元。
Sanchan Saxena: And was there till 2017.
Sanchan Saxena：一直呆到 2017 年。
By the time it was like a billion monthly active users, multiple billion dollars in revenue, was my first hypergrowth experience as a product leader.
到了每月活跃用户达到十亿、收入达到数十亿美元的时候，这是我作为产品领导者的第一次高速增长经历。
And then in 2017, I joined Airbnb, which is where you and I worked together.
然后在 2017 年，我加入了 Airbnb，这是你和我一起工作的地方。
There I had a dual role.
在那里我扮演着双重角色。
Sanchan Saxena: I was a GM of Airbnb Plus, but also the head of product helping Brian Chesky scale the product management organization, establish the culture of it, and see how best we can build a world class part organization.
Sanchan Saxena：我是 Airbnb Plus 的总经理，同时也是产品主管，帮助 Brian Chesky 扩展产品管理组织，建立产品文化，并了解我们如何最好地建立一个世界级的零件组织。
And then after that, I took some time off, about six months, introspective to see what do I want to do next.
之后，我休息了一段时间，大约六个月，反思自己下一步想做什么。
Sanchan Saxena: And that is when I went into the Web 3.0 rabbit home, and that's when I learned more and more about Web 3.0, what's happening over there.
Sanchan Saxena：就在那时，我走进了 Web 3.0 兔子之家，就在那时，我对 Web 3.0 以及那里正在发生的事情有了越来越多的了解。
I've always been investor in crypto since 2014, but never thought of it as a builder.
自 2014 年以来，我一直是加密货币的投资者，但从未将其视为建设者。
I was like, "Ah, I don't know if I want to build in there.
我当时想，“啊，我不知道我是否想在那里建造。
It seems cool.
看起来很酷。
I can participate from the outside."
我可以从外面参与。”
Sanchan Saxena: But then the more I read, the more I realized, "Man, this is one of the biggest revolutions happening." And that's when I joined Coinbase and here I'm the VP product for ecosystems and a bunch of other stuff that I do here, and excited to be able to play a small role in this next revolution called Web 3.0.
Sanchan Saxena：但是我读得越多，我就越意识到，“伙计，这是正在发生的最大的革命之一。”就在那时，我加入了 Coinbase，在这里，我担任生态系统产品副总裁以及我在这里所做的许多其他工作，并且很高兴能够在称为 Web 3.0 的下一场革命中发挥一个小作用。
Lenny: Amazing.
莱尼：太棒了。
Just listening into that trajectory and places that you worked, I imagine people are wondering like, "Man, how do I follow a trajectory like that?
只要听听你工作的轨迹和地方，我想人们会想，“伙计，我如何遵循这样的轨迹？
How do I live a life like Sanchan?" Do you have any advice for someone that's maybe just starting out that may be wondering like, "How do I follow this sort of path?
我要怎样才能过上三婵那样的生活呢？”对于那些可能刚刚开始思考“我该如何走这条路？”的人，您有什么建议吗？
How do I work at all these incredible companies and get to maybe where you are now?"?
我如何在所有这些令人难以置信的公司工作并达到你现在的水平？”？
Sanchan Saxena: Yeah, I look back at my career, one thing that is very true is that I never had that plan.
Sanchan Saxena：是的，我回顾我的职业生涯，非常真实的一件事是我从未有过这个计划。
I stumbled upon a lot of things.
我偶然发现了很多事情。
I mean, I wanted to be an aerospace engineer, didn't work out, pivoted.
我的意思是，我想成为一名航空航天工程师，但没有成功，转行了。
I started my own company, didn't work out, pivoted.
我创办了自己的公司，但没有成功，就转向了。
I came to Silicon Valley, worked at Hotmail, didn't work out, pivoted.
我来到硅谷，在 Hotmail 工作，没有工作，就转向了。
Sanchan Saxena: Things start to materialize when you actually take steps to do something.
Sanchan Saxena：当你真正采取措施去做某事时，事情就会开始具体化。
My biggest advice to people is, oftentimes the analysis paralysis of dotting every eye, crossing every tee sometimes chokes you out of opportunities.
我对人们最大的建议是，经常盯着每只眼睛、穿过每一个发球台的分析瘫痪有时会让你失去机会。
When you find something that gives you energy, just jump in with both feet.
当你找到能给你能量的东西时，就用双脚跳进去。
And try to go through that process, and pivot and learn, and pivot and learn and pivot.
并尝试完成这个过程，然后进行调整和学习，然后进行调整，学习和调整。
Sanchan Saxena: That's how you would create a great career as opposed to sort of a five year career plan and working backwards from that.
Sanchan Saxena：这就是你创造伟大职业生涯的方式，而不是制定五年职业计划并从中倒推。
Those things just don't work.
这些东西根本行不通。
The other thing I would say is I read this book early on in my life called the Little Bets.
我要说的另一件事是，我很早就读过这本书，名为《小赌注》。
It actually was a reflection of whatever I did in my life.
这实际上反映了我一生中所做的一切。
Before that I thought I was a weirdo, I don't know what I'm doing.
在那之前我以为我是个怪人，我不知道自己在做什么。
And then I read that book and I realized, "Oh my God, there's some method to my madness.
然后我读了那本书，我意识到，“天啊，我的疯狂是有办法的。
It's called little bets."
这就是所谓的小赌注。”
Sanchan Saxena: You take little bets, you try them out.
Sanchan Saxena：你下小赌注，尝试一下。
If they don't work out, you build rapid recovery and start to do something else.
如果它们不起作用，你就会快速恢复并开始做其他事情。
And that is the meta story connecting all the dots in my life, in all the career opportunities that I've had, just one piece of big advice I'll tell everybody.
这就是连接我生活中所有点的元故事，在我拥有的所有职业机会中，这只是我要告诉大家的一个重要建议。
The second thing I'll say is product management is a very interesting discipline.
我要说的第二件事是产品管理是一门非常有趣的学科。
Sanchan Saxena: You don't go to school for that.
Sanchan Saxena：你上学不是为了这个。
You don't get a degree for that.
你没有为此获得学位。
And most people that I know in product have stumbled upon product management.
我认识的大多数产品人员都偶然接触到了产品管理。
They were doing something else and like, "Oh my God, this seems cool.
他们在做其他事情，然后说：“天哪，这看起来很酷。
I want to do this." The advice I give early stage product people is you got to learn the art and the science of product management early on in your career.
我想做这个。”我给早期产品人员的建议是，你必须在职业生涯的早期学习产品管理的艺术和科学。
Sanchan Saxena: There's an art piece to it and then there's a science piece to it, and you got to be able to manage both of those things in your head.
Sanchan Saxena：它既有艺术作品，也有科学作品，你必须能够在头脑中管理这两件事。
If you become too scientific, you miss out on opportunities because you can't see those opportunities using the scientific method of discovery, because they're too tiny or they're so farfetched that people cannot even understand them.
如果你变得过于科学，你就会错过机会，因为你无法使用科学的发现方法看到这些机会，因为它们太小或者太牵强以至于人们甚至无法理解它们。
Sanchan Saxena: And the art piece is really important for you to be able to sniff those out by being in the community, hanging out with people who are actually builders and learning where the next trends would be.
Sanchan Saxena：艺术作品对于您来说非常重要，因为您能够通过融入社区、与真正的建设者一起闲逛并了解下一个趋势是什么来嗅出这些趋势。
My advice to people is go get a job which will make you the fastest learner in the field of product management.
我对人们的建议是去找一份工作，这将使你成为产品管理领域最快的学习者。
Sanchan Saxena: That is what will help you a lot.
Sanchan Saxena：这会对你有很大帮助。
No course, no degree, none of those things will help.
没有课程，没有学位，这些都没有帮助。
The most important thing will be how quickly can you jump in, learn the auto product management.
最重要的是你能多快地开始学习汽车产品管理。
Some people prefer doing that at a startup.
有些人更喜欢在初创公司这样做。
Some people prefer doing it at a established fan company, which has processes and systems as well.
有些人更喜欢在成熟的粉丝公司做这件事，那里也有流程和系统。
It's your choice.
这是你的选择。
But the fastest you learn that, the better it'll get for you.
但你学得越快，对你来说就越好。
Lenny: Wow.
莱尼：哇。
I love so much about that advice.
我非常喜欢这个建议。
To go a little bit further on this last point.
在最后一点上更进一步。
When people are looking for a company to go join to learn, to accelerate their career the way you're describing, what do you think they should be looking for?
当人们寻找一家公司加入学习，以您所描述的方式加速他们的职业生涯时，您认为他们应该寻找什么？
I know you said maybe a startup.
我知道你说也许是一家初创公司。
Do you think they should join a startup?
您认为他们应该加入初创公司吗？
Do you think they should join a bigger company?
你认为他们应该加入更大的公司吗？
What kind of things should you look for to find the best place to learn?
您应该寻找什么样的东西才能找到最佳的学习场所？
Sanchan Saxena: Yeah, I think there is no right recipe for one, but it matters to the individual.
Sanchan Saxena：是的，我认为没有正确的秘诀，但这对个人来说很重要。
I'll share both stories with you.
我将与您分享这两个故事。
The way to think about this is let's say you want to get to a destination, whichever destination it is, you probably want to get on the faster ship.
考虑这个问题的方法是，假设您想要到达某个目的地，无论是哪个目的地，您可能都想乘坐更快的船。
You don't want to get on a slower ship.
你不想登上速度较慢的船。
That's one metaphor to use in your mind.
这是你脑海中可以使用的一个比喻。
Sanchan Saxena: And then when you got to the ship, you know the ship will get there, but remember you are not going to get to your destination faster than the ship will.
Sanchan Saxena：然后，当您到达船上时，您知道船会到达那里，但请记住，您不会比船更快到达目的地。
You got to understand what your destination is, then optimize the learnings from there.
你必须了解你的目的地是什么，然后优化从那里学到的知识。
At a startup, you're going to learn a lot of things.
在初创公司，你会学到很多东西。
There are three types of learning, a starter learning, meaning you can get started.
学习分为三种类型，入门学习，意思是可以开始。
You're a person who can get started.
你是一个可以开始的人。
You see an idea, you see an opportunity, you can get started.
你看到一个想法，你看到一个机会，你就可以开始了。
Right?
正确的？
Sanchan Saxena: That is something that a startup will teach you a lot.
Sanchan Saxena：初创公司会教你很多东西。
You see something, you want to get started to do something about it, great, you'll learn a lot over it.
你看到一些东西，你想要开始做一些事情，太好了，你会从中学到很多东西。
And there's zero to one people who can then take what they have started and scale it to one.
然后有零到一的人可以将他们已经开始的事情扩大到一。
And then there are one and beyond people who are scalers, who will scale the system that is found product market fit.
然后还有一些人是扩展者，他们将扩展适合产品市场的系统。
Sanchan Saxena: And I think depending on your journey, depending on your career, depending upon where you are, you might want to optimize for different types of learnings as well.
Sanchan Saxena：我认为，根据您的旅程、根据您的职业、根据您所在的位置，您可能还希望针对不同类型的学习进行优化。
What I advise people is there's a great way to go to Google, Facebook and Amazon and learn the scale mechanisms that these companies have built.
我建议人们有一个很好的方法去谷歌、Facebook 和亚马逊，了解这些公司建立的规模机制。
And I look at Amazon and I get inspired by that company, because what they have figured out is how to scale innovation with 1 million employees.
我看看亚马逊，我受到了这家公司的启发，因为他们想出了如何利用 100 万员工来扩大创新规模。
Sanchan Saxena: It's a pretty different learning.
Sanchan Saxena：这是一种非常不同的学习。
And you can't potentially find that at a startup.
而且你不可能在初创公司找到这一点。
Similarly, the ability to just get started, the ability to see an idea, start hacking at it, start building it without the encumbrances of the processes and the system that these big organizations have, you can probably learn that in a big company as well.
同样，在没有这些大组织所拥有的流程和系统的阻碍的情况下，能够立即开始，能够看到一个想法，开始破解它，开始构建它，你也可以在大公司学到这一点。
You got to figure out what are you optimizing for, what goes well with you.
你必须弄清楚你要优化什么，什么适合你。
Sanchan Saxena: I've seen many successful leaders who will get choked up in a big company environment, and I've seen many big company successful executives who want to choke up in a very startup environment.
Sanchan Saxena：我见过许多成功的领导者在大公司环境中会哽咽，我也见过许多大公司成功的高管希望在非常初创的环境中哽咽。
And this is not for everybody.
这并不适合所有人。
Both sides of the games are not for everybody.
游戏的双方并不适合所有人。
First and foremost recognizing what gives you energy, recognizing where you thrive the most is really important.
首先也是最重要的是认识到什么给你能量，认识到你在哪里最能成长是非常重要的。
Sanchan Saxena: For example, I am not the guy who can optimize a 100,000 employee company.
Sanchan Saxena：举个例子，我不是那个能够优化一家拥有 10 万员工的公司的人。
I will never enjoy that kind of learning.
我永远不会享受那种学习。
I've done to some extent a large company thing, but I thrive in that starter to scale angle.
我在某种程度上做过大公司的事情，但我在从起步到规模化的角度上茁壮成长。
But when it becomes too large, I start to lose interest in that kind of learning.
但当它变得太大时，我开始对这种学习失去兴趣。
Some people enjoy different things.
有些人喜欢不同的东西。
You got to understand what it is and be able to optimize there.
您必须了解它是什么并能够对其进行优化。
Lenny: Where would you say you learned the most of all the companies you worked at that helped accelerate your career most?
莱尼：您认为在您工作过的所有公司中，您在哪里学到的知识最多，最能帮助您加快职业发展？
Sanchan Saxena: I think I would rank Airbnb probably the place that I learned the most.
Sanchan Saxena：我认为 Airbnb 可能是我学到最多的地方。
And I'll share with you and your audience why I feel that way.
我将与您和您的观众分享为什么我有这样的感觉。
I joined Airbnb back in 2017, making decent revenue, had good product market fit.
我于 2017 年加入 Airbnb，收入不错，产品市场契合度也不错。
I remember when I got there, the entire product management order was like 30 people or 40 people, something like that.
我记得当我到达那里时，整个产品管理订单大约有 30 人或 40 人，类似的东西。
Sanchan Saxena: You had three directors of product, very small still for a company that was generating a billion plus dollars in revenue.
Sanchan Saxena：你们有三名产品总监，对于一家年收入超过 10 亿美元的公司来说，规模仍然很小。
And then the context was there was this ambitious founder, Brian, who will never take no for an answer.
然后背景是这位雄心勃勃的创始人布莱恩，他永远不会接受“不”的答案。
And he would bend reality in many regards to make shit happen.
他会在很多方面扭曲现实，让事情发生。
Sanchan Saxena: And you are very familiar with those days as well, but you will have a practicability.
Sanchan Saxena：而且你对那些日子也很熟悉，但你会有实用性。
You will leave the review thinking, "Shit, this is actually possible." The guy just inspired you that this is actually possible and you went in thinking it's not possible.
看完评论后你会想：“妈的，这实际上是可能的。”那家伙只是启发了你，这实际上是可能的，而你却认为这是不可能的。
Sanchan Saxena: What I found is that at Airbnb, I learned a bunch of different things.
Sanchan Saxena：我发现在 Airbnb，我学到了很多不同的东西。
One, I learned how to build products where software is just one part of the product.
第一，我学会了如何构建产品，其中软件只是产品的一部分。
Let me explain that a little bit.
让我解释一下。
The product of Airbnb isn't the app.
Airbnb 的产品不是应用程序。
It is a means to an end.
这是达到目的的手段。
The product of Airbnb is the memories you're going to create when you sit in that Airbnb beautiful house with your family, with your friends, and you're building those memories.
Airbnb 的产品是当您与家人、朋友坐在 Airbnb 美丽的房子里时，您将创造的回忆，并且您正在建立这些回忆。
That's the product.
这就是产品。
It's in real world.
这是在现实世界中。
Sanchan Saxena: And how you build a real world product which is of course powered by software, like the app, the website, et cetera, is different than just building a pure product that is purely software.
Sanchan Saxena：如何构建一个由软件（如应用程序、网站等）驱动的现实世界产品，与构建纯粹的软件产品不同。
I learned what is operations, how to scale operations, how to work with operations, how to create beautiful physical homes over there.
我在那里学到了什么是运营，如何扩展运营，如何与运营合作，如何创造美丽的实体家园。
The second thing I learned is just how to build great products.
我学到的第二件事就是如何打造出色的产品。
Sanchan Saxena: I mean, I got I think a masterclass from Chesky in how to build products by watching him act, behave, and make decisions as well.
Sanchan Saxena：我的意思是，我认为 Chesky 给我上了一堂大师课，讲的是如何通过观察他的行动、行为和决策来构建产品。
And we'll talk about it later today.
我们今天晚些时候会讨论这个问题。
But I learned some of my fundamental product principles from him, and working with him and the team that he had assembled, the design leaders, the engineering leaders, et cetera.
但我从他那里学到了一些基本的产品原理，并与他和他组建的团队、设计领导者、工程领导者等一起工作。
I learned a lot over there.
我在那里学到了很多东西。
Sanchan Saxena: And last one but not least, there was still a hypergrowth thing.
Sanchan Saxena：最后一点但并非最不重要的一点是，仍然存在高速增长的情况。
We were going through crazy growth.
我们正在经历疯狂的成长。
And then I learned what happens in leadership when coronavirus happens, the company starts to tank.
然后我了解到，当冠状病毒发生时，领导层会发生什么，公司开始陷入困境。
It was a lesson in crisis management.
这是危机管理的一课。
I tell my friends I could not have gone to HBS Stanford business school to learn crisis management as much as I learned while being in the front row seat managing through that.
我告诉我的朋友，我不可能去哈佛商学院斯坦福商学院学习危机管理，因为我坐在前排座位上管理危机。
Sanchan Saxena: My learning as a product leader from Brian as a hyperscaler, taking the product management organization from 30, 40 people to 200 people, and last but not the least, managing the crisis.
Sanchan Saxena：作为产品领导者，我从 Brian 那里学到了超大规模的经验，将产品管理组织从 30、40 人增加到 200 人，最后但并非最不重要的一点是管理危机。
I felt like it all compressed into three years something that you will learn in 30.
我觉得这一切都压缩在三年内，而你 30 岁就能学会的东西。
Lenny: I imagine you had no sense of that sort of path or trajectory or learning when you joined Airbnb, it was like, "Hmm, this is going to be a great company, little things."
莱尼：我想当你加入 Airbnb 时，你对这种路径、轨迹或学习没有任何感觉，就像是，“嗯，这将是一家伟大的公司，小事。”
Sanchan Saxena: Yeah, absolutely.
Sanchan Saxena：是的，绝对如此。
And oftentimes it's a joke, but I'll say it out anyhow.
很多时候这只是一个笑话，但无论如何我都会说出来。
Oftentimes you meet leaders who are leaving Facebook, Amazon, Google, and it's like, "Hey, here's my Excel spreadsheet.
通常，你会遇到即将离开 Facebook、亚马逊、谷歌的领导者，他们会说：“嘿，这是我的 Excel 电子表格。
Here's how I imagine the startup that I'm joining will grow.
以下是我对我加入的初创公司的成长的设想。
Here's the valuation.
这是估值。
Here's my life.
这就是我的生活。
Here's my compensation.
这是我的补偿。
That's it." None of that shit is going to happen.
就是这样。”这些狗屎都不会发生。
Sanchan Saxena: The companies have a different trajectory and you can't predict those things.
Sanchan Saxena：这些公司有不同的发展轨迹，你无法预测这些事情。
So yeah, you're right.
所以是的，你是对的。
When I joined Airbnb, I thought it's going to be a walk in the park, just like Instagram was.
当我加入 Airbnb 时，我以为这就像在公园里散步一样，就像 Instagram 一样。
I mean, Instagram wasn't a walk in the park.
我的意思是，Instagram 并不是在公园散步。
But relatively speaking, Instagram never experienced this kind of rapid pivoting of the reality, right?
但相对而言，Instagram从未经历过这种现实的快速转变，对吗？
Sanchan Saxena: I'll share with you I was there when Instagram had less than a hundred million monthly active users, $0 in revenue, 50 engineers, till it had 1 billion monthly active users, billions of dollars in revenue and thousands of employees.
Sanchan Saxena：我会告诉你，当 Instagram 的月活跃用户不到 1 亿、收入为 0 美元、拥有 50 名工程师时，我就在那里，直到它拥有 10 亿月活跃用户、数十亿美元的收入和数千名员工。
And I don't remember a time where the reality got bended so badly that we had to pivot.
我不记得有哪一次现实被扭曲得如此严重以至于我们不得不改变方向。
Sanchan Saxena: In Airbnb's time, man, one fine morning in January, Brian and us were all talking about going IPO and taking the company public.
Sanchan Saxena：在 Airbnb 时代，伙计，一月份的一个晴朗的早晨，Brian 和我们都在谈论 IPO 并让公司上市。
Six weeks later, we are figuring out, "Damn, how do we make this company survive?" The revenues, if I'm not wrong, dropped to less in single digits of last year's revenue.
六周后，我们正在思考，“该死，我们如何让这家公司生存下去？”如果我没记错的话，收入比去年的收入下降了个位数。
Sanchan Saxena: And there is no head of product, there is no CFO, there is no COO, whoever has a business plan to say, "Hmm, what are we going to do when our revenue drops to single digits of last year's revenue?"
Sanchan Saxena：没有产品负责人，没有首席财务官，没有首席运营官，无论谁有商业计划都会说：“嗯，当我们的收入下降到去年收入的个位数时我们该怎么办？”
Sanchan Saxena: I definitely didn't think that is what happened, but that's what ended up happening.
Sanchan Saxena：我绝对不认为会发生这样的事，但最终却发生了这样的事。
Luckily, everything worked out, and I'm happy to share what we did and how we navigated through that with the audience, but it was some crazy, crazy times, man.
幸运的是，一切都很顺利，我很高兴与观众分享我们所做的事情以及我们如何度过这一切，但那是一些疯狂、疯狂的时刻，伙计。
Lenny: I was on the outside of that having left Airbnb a couple years prior and I was like, "Shit, what am I going to do now?
莱尼：几年前离开 Airbnb 后，我就处于局外人的境地，当时我就想，“妈的，我现在该怎么办？
I've been taking time off.
我一直在请假。
There go all my Airbnb shares.
我所有的 Airbnb 股票都消失了。
I think I can get a job soon." And that's actually what led to the newsletter and starting to charge for the newsletter.
我想我很快就能找到工作。”这实际上就是导致新闻通讯并开始对新闻通讯收费的原因。
But I'm very thankful for the turnaround that you helped create.
但我非常感谢你帮助创造的转变。
I'd actually love to hear a bit more about what it is they did that helped them through that.
我实际上很想听听更多关于他们做了什么帮助他们度过难关的事情。
Sanchan Saxena: I'll share with you the behind the scenes story that we went through.
Sanchan Saxena：我将与您分享我们经历的幕后故事。
This is January, and Brian had this idea of taking the company public in April.
这是一月份，布莱恩有了在四月份让公司上市的想法。
And we are working on the road show deck, we are working through numbers, we were crafting the story, et cetera, everything's going well.
我们正在准备路演平台，我们正在处理数字，我们正在制作故事等等，一切都很顺利。
Sanchan Saxena: And then we hear of this coronavirus crisis and all of a sudden countries are shutting down, one after the other.
Sanchan Saxena：然后我们听说了这场冠状病毒危机，突然之间，多个国家纷纷关闭。
Italy shuts down.
意大利封城了。
Japan shuts down.
日本关门了。
This country shuts down.
这个国家关闭了。
And all of a sudden we can see on our travel map, we have this dashboard where you can see where people are traveling, and you can see travel goes down to zero in this country on a map.
突然间，我们可以在旅行地图上看到，我们有这个仪表板，您可以在其中看到人们在哪里旅行，并且您可以在地图上看到这个国家/地区的旅行减少到零。
This goes down to zero in this country, and you're like, "Holy shit, what's happening over here?"
在这个国家，这个数字降到了零，你就会想，“天哪，这里发生了什么事？”
Sanchan Saxena: I remember in all-hands where Brian stood up and said, "Look, we built this company for a crisis like this.
Sanchan Saxena：我记得布莱恩在全体会议上站起来说：“看，我们是为了应对这样的危机而建立这家公司的。
We built this company, we have $2 billion in bank." I think something like that, some ridiculous number.
我们建立了这家公司，我们有 20 亿美元的银行存款。”我想类似的事情，一些荒谬的数字。
"We have not used a single amount of money from our last raise," because we were profitable or growing really profitable.
“我们没有使用上次融资中的一分钱”，因为我们已经盈利或真正盈利。
"And we are going to survive this."
“我们会度过难关。”
Sanchan Saxena: Six weeks later, he's in the same all-hands and telling people, "This is a different world we are living in." We had to lay off 1,900 employees, just 190 of those were in my organization.
Sanchan Saxena：六周后，他在同样的全体会议上告诉人们，“这是一个不同的世界，我们生活在其中。”我们不得不解雇 1,900 名员工，其中只有 190 人属于我的组织。
We had to raise $2 billion in debt, and the valuation dropped to 50% of what the valuation was.
我们不得不举债筹集 20 亿美元，而估值却跌至原来估值的 50%。
It was one of the craziest times.
那是最疯狂的时期之一。
Sanchan Saxena: And Lenny, when you go through that, the loss of challenges you face, one is fine.
Sanchan Saxena：莱尼，当你经历这些，失去你所面临的挑战时，有一个很好。
You can cut costs by laying off employees for a little bit and create a little bit more runway.
你可以通过裁员一点点来削减成本，并创造更多的跑道。
But remember, this is coronavirus time.
但请记住，这是冠状病毒时代。
I had to let go of people over Zoom.
我不得不通过 Zoom 解雇一些人。
I couldn't even meet them in-person.
我什至无法亲自见到他们。
Sanchan Saxena: I still remember when I actually finished my speech and I told them, "This is the last day," now, I literally shed a tear in front of everybody, because I was like, "Man, this is hard.
Sanchan Saxena：我仍然记得当我真正完成演讲时，我告诉他们，“这是最后一天”，现在，我真的在每个人面前流下了眼泪，因为我当时想，“伙计，这很难。
This is really, really hard." And the company let go of 1900 people.
这真的非常非常难。”公司解雇了1900人。
I just had to let go of 190 in my organization, but it was still very painful, because remember, it is no fault of these employees.
我不得不放弃我组织中的190，但这仍然很痛苦，因为记住，这不是这些员工的错。
They just happen to be at the wrong side of the tornado that's hitting the world.
他们只是碰巧处于袭击世界的龙卷风的反面。
Sanchan Saxena: The second equally most important thing was the people who stayed back, how do you motivate them?
Sanchan Saxena：第二个同样重要的事情是留下来的人，你如何激励他们？
One is you can let go of the people, but people who stayed back, they need a light of hope that something is going to turn around.
一是你可以放走那些人，但那些留下来的人，他们需要一线希望，希望事情会好转。
But how do you plan when data is changing every single day?
但是，当数据每天都在变化时，您该如何计划呢？
And every day we will wake up, a new country will go down and say, "No, no more travels into our market".
每天我们醒来，都会有一个新的国家下来并说：“不，不再有人进入我们的市场”。
Sanchan Saxena: And we start predicting that our revenue will be 7, 10, some ridiculous very small percent of last years.
Sanchan Saxena：我们开始预测我们的收入将是去年的 7、10，有些可笑的很小的百分比。
There's panic.
有恐慌。
And this is where I would say Brian Chesky is an incredible leader.
这就是我想说布莱恩·切斯基（Brian Chesky）是一位令人难以置信的领导者的地方。
He's the Rocky Balboa of Silicon valley.
他是硅谷的洛基·巴尔博亚。
You can punch him, he'll go down, he'll stand up, he'll fight again.
你可以打他，他会倒下，他会站起来，他会再次战斗。
That's the analogy.
这就是类比。
He's truly the Rocky Balboa where he took so many punches, but he stood up again and say, "One more round."
他确实是洛基·巴尔博亚（Rocky Balboa），他挨了很多拳，但他再次站起来说：“再来一轮。”
Sanchan Saxena: And that's how the company survived.
Sanchan Saxena：这就是公司生存的方式。
From an operating principle, we went into two week planning mode.
从操作原则来看，我们进入了两周计划模式。
Greg Greeley, who was the president of Airbnb used to say, "Look, can't plan for a year, can't plan for a quarter.
Airbnb 总裁格雷格·格里利 (Greg Greeley) 曾经说过：“听着，不能计划一年，也不能计划一个季度。
We're going to plan every two weeks.
我们将每两周计划一次。
We're going to react to every two weeks." And I think this is the lesson that I try to share with a lot of product people as well and founders as well is that things are going to go all right.
我们将每两周做出一次反应。”我认为这是我试图与许多产品人员和创始人分享的教训，那就是一切都会好起来的。
Things are not going to go as you plan.
事情不会按你的计划进行。
Sanchan Saxena: The real genius isn't to dot every eye, to cross every team before you get started.
Sanchan Saxena：真正的天才并不是在开始之前就关注每一只眼睛，跨越每个团队。
The real genius is, what do you do when shit goes wrong?
真正的天才在于，当事情出错时你会怎么做？
And I believe rapid recovery is the key to success.
我相信快速恢复是成功的关键。
What you do, how quickly you can recover from failure becomes really important.
你做什么、从失败中恢复的速度有多快变得非常重要。
Our operating model changed.
我们的运营模式发生了变化。
We went to two weeks shipping.
我们去了两周的运输。
All right, what are we doing for the next two weeks?
好吧，接下来的两周我们要做什么？
What is the most urgent thing for the company?
公司最紧迫的事情是什么？
For the company.
为了公司。
Not my team, not your team, not somebody else's team.
不是我的团队，不是你的团队，也不是别人的团队。
Sanchan Saxena: And we pivoted the entire machinery down over there.
Sanchan Saxena：我们将整个机器旋转到那里。
And then slowly and slowly after two or three months, we got to a place where we got semblance of what is happening.
然后慢慢地、慢慢地，两三个月后，我们对正在发生的事情有了大概的了解。
I want to tell you one story.
我想告诉你一个故事。
Hotels and Airbnb are competitors, right?
酒店和 Airbnb 是竞争对手，对吗？
And when this thing happened, we had a debate, "How are we going to position Airbnb against hotels?" And actually we had to figure out what are the advantages of people staying in an Airbnb.
当这件事发生时，我们进行了一场辩论：“我们如何将 Airbnb 与酒店区分开来？”事实上，我们必须弄清楚人们住在 Airbnb 的优势是什么。
Sanchan Saxena: And luckily for us, being in an Airbnb where the air you breathe is only you and your family turned out to be a huge secret sauce to compete.
Sanchan Saxena：对我们来说幸运的是，住在 Airbnb 里，呼吸的空气只有你和你的家人，这对我们来说是一个巨大的竞争秘密武器。
When you're in a hotel, there's a lobby.
当您入住酒店时，就会有大堂。
You get to be with other people.
你要和其他人在一起。
But when you're are in an Airbnb, you're safe.
但当您入住 Airbnb 时，您就安全了。
We pivoted our marketing as well and messaging as well.
我们也调整了营销和信息传递的方向。
The entire company came together to become one.
整个公司聚集在一起，成为一个整体。
Sanchan Saxena: And through this, I would say Brian's leadership was just phenomenal, everything I learned about crisis management, leading with calmness.
Sanchan Saxena：通过这件事，我想说布莱恩的领导力是非凡的，我学到了关于危机管理的一切，冷静地领导。
There's a very good saying in boxing.
拳击界有句话说得很好。
I love sports.
我喜欢运动。
There's a very good saying, which is, you can have all the plan.
有句话说得很好，那就是万事皆有计划。
The moment you step inside the boxing and you get a punch on your face, all your plans go out the window.
当你踏入拳击场，脸上挨了一拳的时候，你所有的计划都泡汤了。
And you got to stay calm when you get a punch on your face.
当你的脸上挨了一拳时，你必须保持冷静。
Sanchan Saxena: And that is what I learned from Brian, how to stay calm, how to stay composed while at the same time, deep down you know you owe a lot to these employees, you know you owe a lot to these employees to have clarity, and for them to stick around with you and believe in you that the company can turn around.
Sanchan Saxena：这就是我从布莱恩那里学到的，如何保持冷静，如何保持沉着，同时，在内心深处，你知道你欠这些员工很多，你知道你欠这些员工很多，让他们保持清晰，让他们留在你身边，相信你，公司可以扭亏为盈。
It was an amazing journey, but pretty painful.
这是一次奇妙的旅程，但也很痛苦。
Lenny: Wow.
莱尼：哇。
I haven't heard that level of detail about what went on inside, and so thank you for sharing all that.
我还没有听说过关于内部发生的事情的详细信息，所以感谢您分享所有这些。
Very tactically, I'm curious, the two week planning cycles, how did that actually happen?
从战术上讲，我很好奇，两周的计划周期，实际上是如何发生的？
Was there a large meeting every two weeks with the leaders and they just kind of discuss, "Here's where we're thinking for the next two weeks."?
是否每两周与领导人举行一次大型会议，他们只是讨论“这就是我们未来两周的想法”？
Sanchan Saxena: Yeah, I think so.
Sanchan Saxena：是的，我想是的。
One of the things about Airbnb, and we'll talk about it later as well, but it's a very founder-driven company.
这是关于 Airbnb 的事情之一，我们稍后也会讨论，但它是一家非常由创始人驱动的公司。
While there are leaders over there, the founder is deeply in the trenches.
虽然那里有领导者，但创始人却深陷战壕。
He really understands the customer.
他真的很了解客户。
He's not this executive who's so far removed from reality that they can't actually create the content.
他不是这位远离现实以至于无法实际创建内容的高管。
Sanchan Saxena: Brian was living, breathing that exercise.
Sanchan Saxena：布莱恩活着，呼吸着这种锻炼。
Execs were breathing that thing.
高管们都在呼吸这种东西。
What we'll do is we'll have a bunch of things top-down.
我们要做的是自上而下地做很多事情。
Again, this is what we need to do guys.
再说一遍，这就是我们需要做的事情。
We need to cut this feature.
我们需要削减这个功能。
We need to cut this product line.
我们需要削减这个产品线。
We need to cut this business unit.
我们需要削减这个业务部门。
I literally had to shut down one full business unit because we had to cut the bleeding, so to say, and let go of those many people.
我确实不得不关闭一个完整的业务部门，因为我们必须止血，可以这么说，并解雇那么多人。
Sanchan Saxena: It was a top-down mandate, but also it was a bottom-up.
Sanchan Saxena：这是一个自上而下的任务，但也是一个自下而上的任务。
The engineers, the product managers and designers are frontline.
工程师、产品经理和设计师都在第一线。
They are in connection with the CX team who's hearing what customers are complaining about.
他们与客户体验团队保持联系，听取客户的抱怨。
And so there was a mixture of top-down guidance to a bottoms-up things that we are seeing on the field.
因此，我们在现场看到的是自上而下的指导和自下而上的指导的混合体。
And every two weeks or so, the leadership, Greg in that case, for example, would make a decision on, "Here are the things we are going to go handle." And there were no teams anymore.
每隔两周左右，领导层（例如格雷格）就会做出决定，“这是我们要处理的事情。”而且已经没有队伍了。
Sanchan Saxena: We basically dissolved this idea that there are sub-teams.
Sanchan Saxena：我们基本上放弃了存在子团队的想法。
There was one team, #Airbnb.
有一个团队，#Airbnb。
Didn't matter whether you worked in CX or Airbnb Plus or Lax, or any of those things, we're going to move engineers wherever we have to, we're going to move PMs wherever we need to, and there's no such thing as sub-team anymore.
无论你是在CX、Airbnb Plus还是Lax工作，或者任何其他公司工作，我们都会把工程师调到任何我们需要的地方，我们会把PM调到任何我们需要的地方，而且不再有子团队之类的东西了。
Sanchan Saxena: A lot of engineers on my team would go on to do marketplace dynamic stuff, like pricing and all that stuff, while some of those engineers would then go on to build CX tools or something else that was needed for survival.
Sanchan Saxena：我团队中的很多工程师会继续做市场动态的事情，比如定价之类的事情，而其中一些工程师会继续构建 CX 工具或生存所需的其他东西。
I felt like a 4,000 people company was operating as a four people company and a 40 people company, which is one team, no sub-teams, everybody rowing in the same direction.
我感觉一家 4000 人的公司正在以四人公司和 40 人公司的方式运营，这是一个团队，没有子团队，每个人都朝着同一个方向划船。
And that was really important.
这真的很重要。
Sanchan Saxena: Because remember, employees who are at your company are looking for clarity.
Sanchan Saxena：因为请记住，贵公司的员工都在寻求清晰度。
What should they work on?
他们应该做什么工作？
Is the thing that they're going to work on meaningful, right?
他们要做的事情有意义吗？
Because nobody knows, right?
因为没有人知道，对吧？
And when people will ask you as a leader, like many people ask me, what does six months look like?
当人们问你作为领导者时，就像很多人问我一样，六个月是什么样的？
What does a year look like?
一年是什么样子的？
Where are we a year from now?
一年后我们在哪里？
Sanchan Saxena: The most honest answer you can tell them is, "I don't know." Because if you cook shit up, they're going to see through that lie.
Sanchan Saxena：你能告诉他们的最诚实的答案是“我不知道”。因为如果你胡编乱造，他们就会识破你的谎言。
They're going to like, "Ah, this is just all marketing fluff." We would be very honest as leaders, would be very vulnerable as leaders, saying, "This is truly once in a lifetime thing.
他们会喜欢，“啊，这只是营销废话。”作为领导者，我们会非常诚实，作为领导者，我们会非常脆弱，说：“这确实是一生一次的事情。
We don't know how we're going to navigate.
我们不知道我们将如何导航。
But here's what we believe to be true."
但这是我们相信的事实。”
Sanchan Saxena: We had to get people from feature obsession, revenue obsession, to belief obsession.
Sanchan Saxena：我们必须让人们从对功能、收入的痴迷转向对信仰的痴迷。
What is belief obsession?
什么是信仰痴迷？
When we all believe that when coronavirus is over, people will want to travel.
当我们都相信冠状病毒结束后，人们会想要旅行。
We all believe that coronavirus will be over.
我们都相信冠状病毒将会结束。
You start going into first principles belief-based thinking, and you'll bring stories that will make people believe that the future that we are working toward is actually possible.
你开始进入基于信念的思维的第一原则，你将带来一些故事，让人们相信我们正在努力的未来实际上是可能的。
Sanchan Saxena: For example, there was a survey we did, we said, "If money wasn't a consideration, what would you do for the rest of your life?" 99.99% of the people said, "I will travel the world." Travel is in human genes.
Sanchan Saxena：例如，我们做了一个调查，我们说，“如果钱不是考虑因素，你的余生会做什么？” 99.99%的人说“我要环游世界”。旅行是人类的基因。
And so we had to pivot to actually making people believe why travel will be back, why Airbnb will survive, and why Airbnb will eventually thrive if the coronavirus crisis is lower.
因此，我们必须真正让人们相信为什么旅行会回来，为什么 Airbnb 会生存，以及为什么如果冠状病毒危机缓解，Airbnb 最终会蓬勃发展。
Lenny: These stories are incredible.
莱尼：这些故事令人难以置信。
I was going to ask around the morale piece.
我本来想问一下士气方面的问题。
You mentioned keeping morale up.
你提到保持士气。
And it sounds like a big piece of that was pulling people back to the mission and the vision of Airbnb and re-inspiring them, and helping them feel like this will work out.
听起来其中很大一部分就是让人们重新回到 Airbnb 的使命和愿景上，重新激励他们，帮助他们感觉这一切会成功。
Is that what you found to be most effective, to keep more morale up, or is there anything else that also helped keep more morale up in this very tenuous time?
您认为这是最有效的保持士气的方法吗？或者还有什么其他方法可以在这个非常脆弱的时期帮助保持士气？
Sanchan Saxena: I think in these tenuous times you will notice that you can't pay these employees better than market.
Sanchan Saxena：我认为在这些脆弱的时期你会注意到你无法向这些员工支付比市场更好的工资。
When this happened, FAANG companies were at our door trying to poach our engineers.
当这种情况发生时，FAANG 公司就找上门来挖我们的工程师。
Overnight, every engineer was pinged by Facebook, Google say, "Hey, we heard Airbnb is going down.
一夜之间，每个工程师都收到了 Facebook 和 Google 的通知，“嘿，我们听说 Airbnb 正在倒闭。
You want to come over?
你想过来吗？
We'll pay you X amount of money, and that stock is stable."
我们将支付给您 X 金额，并且该库存是稳定的。”
Sanchan Saxena: You had vultures at the door, so to say, as a proverbial exercise where your top talent is getting poached, but you can't pay this top talent the best.
Sanchan Saxena：秃鹫在门口，可以这么说，众所周知，你的顶尖人才正在被挖走，但你无法向这些顶尖人才支付最好的薪水。
Right?
正确的？
You can't.
你不能。
Because your financial situation doesn't allow you to do that, right?
因为你的经济状况不允许你这样做，对吗？
But you still give them something, right?
但你还是给了他们一些东西，对吗？
Because it's at a lower price and you start to sell the vision that if the company turns around, this will be at a higher price and you'll have right compensation.
因为它的价格较低，而你开始推销这样的愿景：如果公司扭亏为盈，价格将会更高，你将获得适当的补偿。
But those were some of the challenges.
但这些都是一些挑战。
Sanchan Saxena: The second challenge is you'll notice that people who thrive in these situations will be the one who truly believe both in the mission, but I think more importantly in the founders to make that mission come to life.
Sanchan Saxena：第二个挑战是你会注意到，在这些情况下茁壮成长的人将是真正相信这两种使命的人，但我认为更重要的是创始人让这一使命成为现实。
Because you and I both know, right, there are many companies who have the similar mission, want to do something similar, but some succeed and some don't.
因为你我都知道，对吧，有很多公司有着相似的使命，想要做类似的事情，但有些成功了，有些却没有。
Sanchan Saxena: And the secret sauce of that in my opinion is the founder.
Sanchan Saxena：我认为其秘诀在于创始人。
And if the employees do not believe in the founder, if the employees do not believe that the founder can make things happen as they talk about, and the founder is not able to connect with the employees, those companies go down in flames.
如果员工不相信创始人，如果员工不相信创始人能够把事情变成他们所说的那样，如果创始人无法与员工建立联系，那么这些公司就会被烧毁。
The second thing I would say is the founder needs to be at the front line.
我要说的第二件事是创始人需要站在第一线。
And Brian Chesky was on the front line.
布莱恩·切斯基（Brian Chesky）就在前线。
Sanchan Saxena: He was literally 24/7 available, interacting, making decisions, holding all-hands, writing emails, sending messages, and assuring people that I'm in this with you.
Sanchan Saxena：他确实是 24/7 随时待命，互动、做出决定、召集全体人员、写电子邮件、发送消息，并向人们保证我和你们在一起。
By the way, there's a proverbial thing, right?
顺便说一下，有一个众所周知的事情，对吗？
When such situations happen, all execs take a pay cut.
当这种情况发生时，所有高管都会减薪。
Every company does that, right?
每个公司都会这样做，对吗？
But then still certain companies survive, certain don't, right?
但仍然有些公司能生存下来，有些则不能，对吗？
Sanchan Saxena: It's primarily because of the founder.
Sanchan Saxena：这主要是因为创始人。
And then the third thing I would say is somehow getting people to believe in the future that they came here to create.
我要说的第三件事是以某种方式让人们相信他们来到这里创造的未来。
When drastic situations like these happens, when I joined Airbnb I had a vision of what it can become, and the reality snaps and all of a sudden like, "Holy shit.
当这样的剧烈情况发生时，当我加入 Airbnb 时，我就对它能变成什么样子有了一个愿景，但现实却突然崩溃了，突然间，“天哪。
Is that even possible?"
这可能吗？”
Sanchan Saxena: That is the real art I learned from Brian is that the power of storytelling without any data.
Sanchan Saxena：这是我从布莱恩那里学到的真正艺术，那就是在没有任何数据的情况下讲故事的力量。
Your data is telling you, "You're going to die." The data is telling you, you got 7%, 10% of your revenue, whatever the number was now.
你的数据告诉你，“你快要死了。”数据告诉你，无论现在的数字是多少，你都获得了收入的 7%、10%。
I forget now.
我现在忘记了。
Like single digit number, right?
就像个位数一样，对吧？
Sanchan Saxena: And every day you're seeing the numbers go down, right?
Sanchan Saxena：每天你都会看到数字在下降，对吧？
And Brian has this incredible ability to help you see a future in a way so crystal clear that when you leave chatting with him, you're like, "Man, it's possible.
布莱恩有一种令人难以置信的能力，可以帮助你以一种如此清晰的方式看到未来，以至于当你结束与他的聊天时，你会说，“伙计，这是可能的。
We can make it happen.
我们可以实现这一目标。
We can do it." That trait was really, really important that Brian invested in it, and all the three founders, by the way.
我们能做到。”顺便说一句，布莱恩和所有三位创始人都对这一特质进行了投资，这一点非常非常重要。
Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Productboard.
Lenny：本集由 Productboard 为您带来。
Product leaders trust Productboard to help their teams build products that matter.
产品领导者相信 Productboard 可以帮助他们的团队构建重要的产品。
From startups to industry titans, over 6,000 companies rely on Productboard to get the right products to market faster, including companies like Zoom, Volkswagen, UiPath and Vanguard.
从初创公司到行业巨头，超过 6,000 家公司依靠 Productboard 更快地将合适的产品推向市场，其中包括 Zoom、Volkswagen、UiPath 和 Vanguard 等公司。
Lenny: Productboard can help you create a scalable, transparent and standardized process, so your PMs understand what their customers really need and then prioritize the right features to build next.
Lenny：Productboard 可以帮助您创建可扩展、透明和标准化的流程，以便您的产品经理了解客户的真正需求，然后优先考虑下一步构建的正确功能。
Stakeholders feel the love two with an easy to view roadmap that automatically updates so everyone knows what you're building and why.
利益相关者通过易于查看的自动更新路线图感受到两人的爱，这样每个人都知道您正在构建什么以及为什么。
Make data-driven product decisions that result in higher revenue and user adoption, and empower your product teams to create delightful customer experiences.
制定数据驱动的产品决策，从而提高收入和用户采用率，并使您的产品团队能够创造令人愉悦的客户体验。
Lenny: Visit Productboard.com to learn more.
Lenny：访问 Productboard.com 了解更多信息。
I could talk about Airbnb all day, but I'm also curious of the other places you worked at, Instagram, Microsoft, even Coinbase.
我可以整天谈论 Airbnb，但我也对你工作过的其他地方感到好奇，Instagram、微软，甚至 Coinbase。
What are things you've seen the leaders at those companies do that have stuck with you that you're going to take to other places that are maybe unique?
您看到这些公司的领导者所做的哪些事情让您印象深刻，并且您打算将其带到其他可能独一无二的地方？
Sanchan Saxena: Yeah, I think a lot of amazing things.
Sanchan Saxena：是的，我想到了很多令人惊奇的事情。
I tell people, I learned all things about building great products, building great businesses, building great companies from founders like Kevin Systrom and Brian Chesky, Brian Armstrong and others.
我告诉人们，我从凯文·斯特罗姆（Kevin Systrom）、布莱恩·切斯基（Brian Chesky）、布莱恩·阿姆斯特朗（Brian Armstrong）等创始人那里学到了关于打造伟大产品、打造伟大企业、打造伟大公司的所有知识。
Well, let me go back to Instagram days.
好吧，让我回到 Instagram 时代。
I want to paint the picture first of what it was when I got there and the journey we were on.
我想首先描绘一下我到达那里时的情况以及我们正在进行的旅程。
Sanchan Saxena: At that time, Instagram was a highly successful app that was growing really fast, but there were many questions.
Sanchan Saxena：当时，Instagram 是一款非常成功的应用，发展速度非常快，但也存在很多问题。
Only photos, you can't share anything outside.
只能分享照片，不能与外界分享任何东西。
It's only from the camera.
这只是来自相机。
You can't share links.
您无法共享链接。
At Facebook they allow you to share links.
在 Facebook，他们允许您共享链接。
Why don't you allow that, right?
你为什么不允许这样，对吧？
There's an existential question that comes at those stages, which is who do you want to be when you grow up?
在这些阶段会出现一个存在主义问题，那就是你长大后想成为谁？
Sanchan Saxena: When you're a startup, that's a big, important question for you to answer.
Sanchan Saxena：当你是一家初创公司时，这是你需要回答的一个大而重要的问题。
And there were many debates.
并且有很多争论。
"Do we want to be the next Facebook?
“我们想成为下一个 Facebook 吗？
Do we want to be the first Instagram?
我们想成为第一个 Instagram 吗？
Who do we want to be when we grow up?" Right?
我们长大后想成为谁？”正确的？
And that debate is really, really important.
这场辩论真的非常非常重要。
That clarity is really important for your employees.
这种清晰度对于您的员工来说非常重要。
Sanchan Saxena: The thing that I learned from Kevin Systrom was the power of simplicity.
Sanchan Saxena：我从 Kevin Systrom 身上学到的就是简单的力量。
That guy can listen to everything, hear everything, hear the noise on Twitter, here, there, all the customers complaining, and then just simplify things that makes sense for the team to operate on.
那个人可以倾听一切，听到一切，听到 Twitter 上的噪音，这里，那里，所有客户的抱怨，然后简化对团队运作有意义的事情。
That's his superpower, which is simplicity.
这就是他的超能力，那就是简单。
Take all the information, but simplify your strategy, your belief, who you want to be when you grow up in a way that people can then act on it.
获取所有信息，但简化你的策略、你的信念、你长大后想成为的人，以便人们可以据此采取行动。
Sanchan Saxena: The other thing I learned from him was intentionality.
Sanchan Saxena：我从他身上学到的另一件事是意向性。
This is the story of Instagram Stories.
这就是 Instagram Stories 的故事。
When Snapchat came about, Snapchat was eating Facebook and Instagram as lunch in many regards, because the Snapchat Stories was crushing it.
当 Snapchat 出现时，Snapchat 在很多方面都在把 Facebook 和 Instagram 当作午餐，因为 Snapchat Stories 正在碾压它。
And there are lots of myths, by the way, in the media, how that happened.It was a mandate from Zuck.
顺便说一句，媒体上有很多关于这是如何发生的神话。这是扎克的授权。
Sanchan Saxena: No, Zuck did not have a mandate.
Sanchan Saxena：不，扎克没有授权。
There was no such thing.
没有这样的事情。
It was something that people were experimenting.
这是人们正在尝试的东西。
I want to tell you a story, two stories, which is stories in Facebook app and stories inside of Instagram app, and stories for your audience is the stuff that Snapchat invented, all credit to them.
我想告诉你一个故事，两个故事，一个是 Facebook 应用程序中的故事，一个是 Instagram 应用程序中的故事，而为你的观众提供的故事是 Snapchat 发明的，这一切都归功于他们。
In product management, you always debate measure twice, cut once kind of a thinking.
在产品管理中，你总是会争论两次测量，一次削减的想法。
It's like measure the data, get all the data, right?
这就像测量数据，获取所有数据，对吧？
Get all the analysis, ask customers, et cetera.
获取所有分析、询问客户等等。
Sanchan Saxena: Some of the successful founders don't do that.
Sanchan Saxena：一些成功的创始人不会这样做。
Some of the successful founders go off of gut and instincts more than they go off of data.
一些成功的创始人更多地依靠直觉和本能，而不是数据。
And that to me is a superpower of a founder is like they have this instinct, their vision.
对我来说，创始人的超能力就像他们有这种本能，他们的愿景。
I'll tell you a story.
我给你讲一个故事。
On Instagram side, Kevin Systrom made a decision.
在 Instagram 方面，Kevin Systrom 做出了决定。
We're going all in on this new format.
我们将全力以赴采用这种新格式。
There was no A/B testing that if you add stories at the top ...
没有 A/B 测试，如果你在顶部添加故事......
Sanchan Saxena: I mean, there were a little bit of A/B testing, but not like, "Okay, let's go measure.
Sanchan Saxena：我的意思是，有一些 A/B 测试，但不是“好吧，我们去测量一下。
If you add stories at the top, the feed will go down as a result.
如果您在顶部添加故事，则提要会因此下降。
Engagement will drop as a result.
结果，参与度将会下降。
Revenue will draw.
收入将会减少。
And as a result, we should not do it." There was no such thing.
因此，我们不应该这样做。”没有这样的事情。
The founder said, "We're going all in people.
创始人说：“我们将全力以赴。
This is the future.
这就是未来。
We're not going to measure and then cut.
我们不会测量然后切割。
We're going to cut.
我们要砍了。
And then we are going to iterate from that new baseline.
然后我们将从新的基线开始迭代。
We're going to continue to iterate on that on the Facebook side."
我们将继续在 Facebook 方面迭代这一点。”
Sanchan Saxena: And by the way, there's a very good article that some PM inside of Facebook wrote why stories didn't survive at Facebook but thrived at Instagram is because on that side there was a mathematical modeling being created, which is what are the trade-offs.
Sanchan Saxena：顺便说一句，Facebook 内部的一些 PM 写了一篇非常好的文章，为什么故事在 Facebook 没有生存，但在 Instagram 却蓬勃发展，是因为在这方面创建了一个数学模型，这就是权衡。
And you have a successful business.
而且您的生意很成功。
And this is the innovator's dilemma.
这就是创新者的困境。
You have a successful business called feed that is generating billions of dollars.
您拥有一项名为饲料的成功业务，创造了数十亿美元的收入。
Sanchan Saxena: And you got to bring in this new thing, which has zero advertisers, we don't even know if the engagement will be there or not, and you got to put those things together.
Sanchan Saxena：你必须引入这个新事物，它的广告商为零，我们甚至不知道是否会有参与，你必须将这些东西放在一起。
There was a very different approach that Facebook took for stories versus Instagram.
Facebook 在处理故事方面采取了与 Instagram 截然不同的方法。
And by the way, there was no this rumor in the media there was a top-down man.
顺便说一句，媒体上并没有传言有一个自上而下的人。
No, these teams were just experimenting.
不，这些团队只是在尝试。
They were just trying things out.
他们只是尝试一下。
Sanchan Saxena: We always want to look at our competition, be inspired by what's working, what's not.
Sanchan Saxena：我们总是想关注我们的竞争对手，从有效和无效的方面获得灵感。
There's no harm in learning from somebody who's doing something great and experiment and see if that works for you or not.
向正在做伟大事情的人学习并进行实验，看看这是否适合你，这没有什么坏处。
That was the story.
这就是故事。
And the thing that I learned from Systrom was intentionality.
我从斯特罗姆那里学到的东西是意向性。
As a founder, one of the things you have to recognize, or even as a product leader, you have to recognize is that every product that you build should be intentional in nature.
作为创始人，你必须认识到的一件事，甚至作为产品领导者，你必须认识到你构建的每一个产品本质上都应该是有意的。
Sanchan Saxena: An intentionality doesn't come just from A/B testing.
Sanchan Saxena：意向性不仅仅来自 A/B 测试。
A/B testing maybe you can do that, right, as a later on, but you got to have intentionality.
A/B 测试也许你可以稍后再做，但是你必须有意图。
Where do you want to go?
你想去哪里？
What is the world you want to create for your customers?
您想为客户创造一个什么样的世界？
And then create out A/B testing to get you the fastest route to that end state world.
然后制定 A/B 测试，让您以最快的方式到达最终状态世界。
When I talk to product managers, oftentimes I tell them you're being either too lazy or you're trying to be too risk averse by telling me, "Here are the assumptions you have that you're going to test."
当我与产品经理交谈时，我经常告诉他们，你要么太懒，要么太规避风险，告诉我，“这是你要测试的假设。”
Sanchan Saxena: First tell me the intentionality of the product that you want to create.
Sanchan Saxena：首先告诉我你想要创造的产品的意图。
What do you want to see come true?
你希望看到什么成为现实？
And then let's talk about the A/B test we can run to measure that we are headed in the right direction.
然后我们来谈谈可以运行的 A/B 测试来衡量我们是否朝着正确的方向前进。
And it's a flipping of the mind.
这是一种思想的翻转。
And that was something that Brian also taught me.
这也是布莱恩教给我的。
By the way, it's a joke, but some degree it's reality too.
顺便说一句，这是一个笑话，但某种程度上也是现实。
A/B testing at Airbnb is a bad word.
Airbnb 的 A/B 测试是一个坏词。
Sanchan Saxena: You don't go to Brian and say, "Hey Brian, here's my Excel spreadsheet.
Sanchan Saxena：你不会去找 Brian 说：“嘿 Brian，这是我的 Excel 电子表格。
I want to run some 10 A/B tests and come back and tell you whether we are heading in the right direction." You're going to get thrown out of the window.
我想运行大约 10 次 A/B 测试，然后回来告诉你我们是否正朝着正确的方向前进。”你会被扔出窗外的。
It's like, "No, we got to figure out what the product is." The other thing I learned with Brian Chesky was you first want to create an ideal end state of the product without any constraint.
就像，“不，我们必须弄清楚产品是什么。”我从 Brian Chesky 那里学到的另一件事是，你首先要在没有任何约束的情况下创建产品的理想最终状态。
Sanchan Saxena: Here's a good analogy that Brian will teach people.
Sanchan Saxena：这是布莱恩将教给人们的一个很好的类比。
Let's say you want to build Airbnb.
假设您想建立 Airbnb。
What is the 15 out of 10 experience you want to create?
您想要创造的体验（十分之 15）是什么？
That's where Airbnb designers and PM start by the way.
顺便说一句，这就是 Airbnb 设计师和产品经理的起点。
In most companies, the designers and PM start by saying, "Okay, 10 is perfect.
在大多数公司中，设计师和产品经理一开始都会说：“好吧，10 就很完美了。
We can probably do seven.
我们大概可以做七个。
Let's start at seven." It's a very constrained minded thinking.
我们七点开始吧。”这是一种非常狭隘的思想。
It's like, "I got this much time.
就像是，“我有这么多时间。
I got this many resources.
我有这么多资源。
I got this much budget.
我有这么多预算。
I can only do so much." Right?
我只能做这么多。”正确的？
Sanchan Saxena: And what Brian taught us was think unconstrained first.
Sanchan Saxena：布莱恩教给我们的是首先要不受约束地思考。
Think about a 15 out of 10 experience, design the ideal end state first.
考虑十分之十五的体验，首先设计理想的最终状态。
I'll give you a very concrete example of this.
我会给你一个非常具体的例子。
Let's say you're building Airbnb lounges.
假设您正在建造 Airbnb 休息室。
A customer's check in is at 3:00 PM, but their flight is at 6:00 AM.
客户的入住时间为下午 3:00，但其航班起飞时间为上午 6:00。
What are you going to do?
你会怎样做？
Well, you got to build a lounge, right?
好吧，你得建一个休息室，对吧？
Sanchan Saxena: If you're traditionally trained in product management, this is what you'll do, which is, look, I don't know how to build this in 120 countries.
Sanchan Saxena：如果您接受过产品管理方面的传统培训，那么您将要做的就是，看，我不知道如何在 120 个国家/地区建立这个产品。
I don't know how to scale this stuff.
我不知道如何扩展这些东西。
So I'm going to ignore some ideas and I'm going to build a MVP lounge.
所以我将忽略一些想法，并建立一个 MVP 休息室。
And then I want to say, "Okay, if I add internet access to it, customer detention went up by way.
然后我想说，“好吧，如果我添加互联网接入，客户的滞留率就会上升。
If I add coffee to it, this went up by Z.If I add cheers to it, it went up by X," and hence I'm going to justify how to build a beautiful mall.
如果我添加咖啡，它就会上升 Z。如果我添加欢呼声，它就会上升 X。”因此，我将证明如何建造一个美丽的购物中心。
Sanchan Saxena: That's not what you will do if you're Brian Chesky.
Sanchan Saxena：如果你是 Brian Chesky，你就不会这么做。
Here's what you'll do.
这就是你要做的。
You will pick one location because you don't know how to scale a lounge in 120 countries.
您会选择一个位置，因为您不知道如何在 120 个国家/地区扩展休息室。
Pick one location.
选择一个位置。
But you know how to get in one location a barista who can create coffee, you know in one location how to get the best seats, you know in one location how to get the best air conditioning, you know that right.
但是您知道如何在一个位置找到一位可以制作咖啡的咖啡师，您知道在一个位置如何获得最好的座位，您知道如何在一个位置获得最好的空调，您知道这一点。
Build the best possible lovable product first.
首先打造尽可能最好的可爱产品。
Sanchan Saxena: And then from that point on, understand what worked, what did not, and then scale the pieces that actually worked.
Sanchan Saxena：然后从那时起，了解哪些有效，哪些无效，然后扩展实际有效的部分。
It's a very different way of thinking about things, doing things that don't scale it first.
这是一种非常不同的思考事物的方式，做事时不先扩展规模。
Those are different things I learned at Instagram and Airbnb.
这些是我在 Instagram 和 Airbnb 学到的不同的东西。
Lenny: So much good stuff there that we could do a podcast at each learning.
莱尼：那里有很多好东西，我们可以在每次学习时制作一个播客。
And that point about working backwards from the ideal, that's something I've absolutely taken away also from Airbnb and news often.
关于从理想开始倒退的一点，我也经常从 Airbnb 和新闻中学到这一点。
If folks want to learn a bit more about that, if you Google Snow White Airbnb, there's a whole story about Snow White that kind of touches on where a lot of this idea came from.
如果人们想更多地了解这一点，如果你谷歌白雪公主爱彼迎，就会发现一个关于白雪公主的完整故事，涉及到很多这个想法的来源。
Lenny: I want to follow up on one point you made about intentionality.
莱尼：我想跟进你关于意向性的一个观点。
See your founder or PM and you're just like, "Oh, yeah.
看到你的创始人或产品经理，你会说：“哦，是的。
Okay.
好的。
I'm just going to figure out a vision, and this is where we need to go.
我只是想找出一个愿景，这就是我们需要去的地方。
And I need to be intentional, so I'm just going to tell people here's where we're going." Oftentimes you're wrong.
我需要有意识地告诉人们我们要去的地方。”很多时候你都错了。
Lenny: Do you have any thoughts for someone trying to decide how do I know if I'm going in the right direction, how do I know if I should trust this gut that I have versus running A/B test, because otherwise we don't know?
Lenny：对于那些试图决定我如何知道我是否在朝着正确的方向前进，我如何知道我是否应该相信我的直觉而不是运行 A/B 测试（因为否则我们不知道）的人，你有什么想法吗？
Do you have any thoughts on that?
您对此有什么想法吗？
Sanchan Saxena: Absolutely.
Sanchan Saxena：当然。
I think there are lots of things to unpack there.
我认为那里有很多东西需要解开。
The first and foremost thing I'd say is that when you sit in your car, you tell your GPS, "Here's where I want to go." You never go into your car and say, "Hey, GPS, tell me where I should go." Right?
我要说的第一件事也是最重要的事情是，当您坐在车里时，您会告诉 GPS：“这是我想去的地方。”你永远不会走进你的车并说：“嘿，GPS，告诉我应该去哪里。”正确的？
At least I haven't done that.
至少我没有这样做过。
And then you use the GPS to run an A/B test, say, "Look, I want to get there in the fastest way possible."
然后你使用 GPS 运行 A/B 测试，说：“看，我想以尽可能最快的方式到达那里。”
Sanchan Saxena: GPS then figures out the path to get there in the fastest way, or sometimes tell the GPS, "I'm low on gas.
Sanchan Saxena：GPS 然后会找出以最快的方式到达目的地的路径，或者有时告诉 GPS，“我的汽油快用完了。
Take me a gas efficient route that I can get there, or ." Those are A/B tests.
带我走一条能到达那里的省油路线，或者……”这些是 A/B 测试。
But you never say to the GPS that, "I don't want to go to San Francisco.
但你永远不会对 GPS 说：“我不想去旧金山。
Tell me where I should go." It's a similar concept around intentionality.
告诉我该去哪里。”这是关于意向性的类似概念。
Sanchan Saxena: You got to start first and foremost with, where do you want to go?
Sanchan Saxena：你首先要考虑的是，你想去哪里？
What is the true customer problem that you want to solve?
您想要解决的真正客户问题是什么？
And why does that matter?
为什么这很重要？
The second thing I'll say is, oftentimes, product leaders discount gut or intuition a lot.
我要说的第二件事是，产品领导者常常会严重低估直觉或直觉。
And the reason is it's a safe thing to do.
原因是这是一件安全的事情。
You can always point to data and say, "Look, I did this because of this.
你总是可以指着数据说：“看，我这样做是因为这个。
And if I fail, here's the data.
如果我失败了，这是数据。
And don't fire me." I'm just joking.
还有别解雇我。”我只是开玩笑。
Sanchan Saxena: But you get the extreme of it, right?
Sanchan Saxena：但你已经达到了极端，对吧？
It's very hard to build a team and build your reputation and get an intuition.
建立一个团队、建立自己的声誉并获得直觉是非常困难的。
But the thing is, founders do exactly that.
但事实是，创始人正是这样做的。
There was no document that said, "10 years later Facebook will make billions of dollars in revenue," or no document that said, "Coinbase one day will become a hundred billion dollar company if you invest in that at that point in time." You got to have gut and intuition.
没有文件说“10年后Facebook将创造数十亿美元的收入”，也没有文件说“如果你当时投资的话，Coinbase有一天将成为一家价值千亿美元的公司。”你必须有勇气和直觉。
And founders have that and operators need to learn how to harness that as well.
创始人拥有这一点，运营商也需要学习如何利用这一点。
Sanchan Saxena: And to me, gut and intuition is data.
Sanchan Saxena：对我来说，直觉和直觉就是数据。
It's just not statistically significant yet.
只是目前还没有统计显着性。
That's all it is.
仅此而已。
You have built that intuition, that gut, because you immerse yourself in a situation, you hung out with customers, you understood what was happening.
你已经建立了那种直觉、那种直觉，因为你让自己沉浸在一种情境中，你和顾客一起闲逛，你了解正在发生的事情。
You just can't prove it that it is statistically significant yet.Don't discount your gut.
您只是还无法证明它具有统计显着性。不要低估您的直觉。
That's the second point.
这是第二点。
Sanchan Saxena: And the third point that I'll say is, once you have figured out what that experience looks like, yes, you got to validate what's happening, you got to get feedback back from the community while launching it, and then you got to constantly iterate.
Sanchan Saxena：我要说的第三点是，一旦你弄清楚了体验是什么样子，是的，你必须验证正在发生的事情，你必须在启动它时从社区获得反馈，然后你必须不断迭代。
My advice to people is, don't do that testing up front, start with some assumption, start with a bunch of intuition, et cetera.
我对人们的建议是，不要预先进行测试，从一些假设开始，从一堆直觉开始，等等。
Create that and then have the appetite to actually persist through that.
创造它，然后有兴趣真正坚持下去。
Sanchan Saxena: That's another thing I learned from Brian is that oftentimes these ideas, these crazy ideas, you need persistence.
Sanchan Saxena：我从布莱恩那里学到的另一件事是，通常这些想法，这些疯狂的想法，你需要坚持。
He used to say, "You got to have impatience with getting started, but patience for seeing them through." Because at many other companies, you can actually kill a brilliant idea early on because you just didn't have the patience to see that through.
他常说：“开始时你必须缺乏耐心，但完成过程时你必须要有耐心。”因为在许多其他公司，你实际上可以很早就扼杀一个绝妙的想法，因为你只是没有耐心把它看完。
Sanchan Saxena: You got to start with intentionality and then you got to iterate and test, and iterate and test, and iterate and test.
Sanchan Saxena：你必须从意向性开始，然后你必须迭代和测试，迭代和测试，迭代和测试。
But don't give up too early either.
但也不要太早放弃。
And last but not the least, I'll tell a secret to all your audios.
最后但并非最不重要的一点是，我将告诉您所有音频的秘密。
Sanchan Saxena: Nobody knows everything.
Sanchan Saxena：没有人知道一切。
Right?
正确的？
The idea is that you can look at as much data as you want, which is still not going to feel that all the answers.
这个想法是，你可以查看尽可能多的数据，但仍然不会感觉到所有的答案。
What is really important?
什么才是真正重要的？
The really important thing is rapid recovery.
真正重要的是快速恢复。
Build a culture in your team where failure of those experiments is actually celebrated.
在你的团队中建立一种文化，让这些实验的失败实际上得到庆祝。
Sanchan Saxena: Build a culture in the team where actually people get energized when they fail, because guess what, each failure was a learning that will avoid a mistake for them in the future.
Sanchan Saxena：在团队中建立一种文化，让人们在失败时实际上会充满活力，因为你猜怎么着，每次失败都是一次学习，可以避免他们将来再犯错误。
Right?
正确的？
And I think that is the mindset and culture you want to build.
我认为这就是你想要建立的心态和文化。
Look at data, look at all the things.
看数据，看一切。
But at the same time, don't just look at that and say, "Look, because the data said so, that is what I'm going to do." I'm going to use a very good analogy over here.
但与此同时，不要只看它并说：“看，因为数据是这么说的，所以这就是我要做的。”我将在这里使用一个非常好的比喻。
Sanchan Saxena: And this story has been butchered many times, but I was right there when this happened, so my version is at least 80% accurate.
Sanchan Saxena：这个故事已经被屠杀了很多次，但当这件事发生时我就在场，所以我的版本至少有 80% 准确。
There might be other versions as well.
可能还有其他版本。
But this is Instagram Stories.
但这是 Instagram 快拍。
Imagine you are Kevin Systrom and data science comes to you and say, "Look, I looked at data, and 99% of all photos on people's phones are actually at least a week old.
想象一下，你是 Kevin Systrom，数据科学来找你说：“看，我查看了数据，人们手机上 99% 的照片实际上至少是一周前的。
Please allow Instagram Stories to let people select a photo that is at least a week or two old."
请允许 Instagram Stories 让人们选择一张至少一两周前的照片。”
Sanchan Saxena: Then user research comes back and says, "We talked to a bunch of people.
Sanchan Saxena：然后用户研究回来说：“我们和很多人交谈过。
They said, 'Yes, I would love to share a story of my birthday about a month ago.'" Right?
他们说，‘是的，我很乐意分享一个月前我生日的故事。’”对吗？
And Kevin Systrom says, "No, my intentionality is that story should be real time news.
凯文·斯特罗姆说：“不，我的意图是这个故事应该是实时新闻。
It should be the world's largest TV channel.
它应该是世界上最大的电视频道。
You open that up and you see what's happening right now.
你打开它，你就会看到现在发生了什么。
That is the intentionality I'm going towards."
这就是我所追求的目标。”
Sanchan Saxena: In the beginning, Instagram Stories did not let you pick anything that was not real time.
Sanchan Saxena：一开始，Instagram Stories 不允许你选择任何非实时的内容。
You couldn't go back in your camera and pick something a month ago or two ago, because the intentionality of the product was to create the world's largest real time network of what's happening in the world right now.
你不能回到相机里挑选一两个月前的东西，因为该产品的目的是创建世界上最大的实时网络，记录世界上正在发生的事情。
If that's the intentionality, you got to ignore the other customer needs that I want to share with the world what I did a month ago, and that changes the dynamics.
如果这就是意图，那么你就必须忽略我想与世界分享我一个月前所做的事情的其他客户需求，这会改变动态。
Lenny: Essentially, intentionality is setting up vision for where you want to go, where the product's going and then working away towards it.
Lenny：从本质上讲，意向性就是为你想去的地方、产品的发展方向设定愿景，然后努力实现它。
That makes a lot of sense.
这很有意义。
An example of Instagram.
Instagram 的一个例子。
It's interesting because he eventually changed his mind, because I know that you can upload old photos to stories
这很有趣，因为他最终改变了主意，因为我知道你可以将旧照片上传到故事中
Sanchan Saxena: No, that's actually after he left.
Sanchan Saxena：不，那实际上是在他离开之后。
But yes, you're right.
但是，是的，你是对的。
Lenny: Okay, I see.
莱尼：好的，我明白了。
A different intentionality appeared.
出现了不同的意向性。
Sanchan Saxena: And look, it's also nothing wrong with changing your mind afterwards once you push the envelope, and then you learn something new and you can pivot.
Sanchan Saxena：看，一旦你挑战了极限，之后改变主意也没有什么错，然后你学到了新的东西，你就可以改变方向。
And that's another beauty of founders is that they're very intentional people, very strong opinionated people, but in the face of something new, they're also the fastest to change.
创始人的另一个优点是，他们是非常有目的的人，非常固执己见的人，但面对新事物，他们也是最快改变的。
They don't have remorsefulness, they don't have regrets, and like, "Yeah.
他们没有悔恨，他们没有后悔，并且喜欢，“是的。
All right, let's pivot." And that is the culture you want to build as well as an operator.
好吧，让我们转向吧。”这就是你和运营商想要建立的文化。
Lenny: I'd love to spend a little time on Coinbase and the product culture there.
Lenny：我很愿意花一点时间来了解 Coinbase 和那里的产品文化。
How A/B test driven is it at Coinbase?
Coinbase 的 A/B 测试驱动如何？
How do folks think about intentionally vision?
人们如何看待有意视觉？
And also just, what's the product development process like?
另外，产品开发流程是怎样的？
I'm always curious how products is developed at different companies.
我总是很好奇不同公司的产品是如何开发的。
Sanchan Saxena: I think all different companies that I've worked at have very different product development cultures.
Sanchan Saxena：我认为我工作过的所有不同公司都有非常不同的产品开发文化。
At Airbnb, for example, design and experience was super paramount, and you will not compromise over it.
例如，在 Airbnb，设计和体验至关重要，你不会在这一点上妥协。
You won't cut design to ship.
您不会将设计削减到交付。
In other companies you will cut design to ship sometimes because you want to find something quickly.
在其他公司，有时你会削减设计以交付，因为你想快速找到东西。
Sanchan Saxena: At Coinbase, it's slightly different as well.
Sanchan Saxena：在 Coinbase，情况也略有不同。
Every company has their nuances.
每家公司都有自己的细微差别。
Coinbase is an industry which is rapidly growing.
Coinbase 是一个正在快速增长的行业。
It's Web 3.0.
这是 Web 3.0。
I mean, I have not come across a Web 3.0 expert yet.
我的意思是，我还没有遇到过 Web 3.0 专家。
There is nobody who's an expert in Web 3.0.
没有人是 Web 3.0 方面的专家。
Sanchan Saxena: Yeah.
桑尚·萨克塞纳：是的。
There are lots of people who think they're experts on Twitter.
有很多人认为自己是 Twitter 专家。
But the reality is, man, the industry is so nascent, so early.
但现实是，这个行业是如此新生，如此早期。
You have good intentions and good intuition about where it could go, but it's very hard to be right all the time.
你对事情的走向有良好的意图和良好的直觉，但很难始终正确。
The culture of Coinbase is to take big, bold bets, get started with very tiny teams.
Coinbase 的文化是大胆大胆的赌注，从非常小的团队开始。
Sanchan Saxena: The Coinbase NFT marketplace that we just launched, it started with five people, one product manager, one designer and other three engineers.
Sanchan Saxena：我们刚刚推出的Coinbase NFT市场，一开始只有五个人，一名产品经理，一名设计师和另外三名工程师。
That's how smart it start.
这就是它开始的方式。
And of course it has grown big now as we find product market fit, etcetera, et cetera.
当然，随着我们找到适合市场的产品等等，它现在已经发展壮大了。
But that's the idea is take big, bold swings, but with tiny teams that can move at lightning speed and make shit happen, because that's one aspect of it.
但这的想法是采取大而大胆的举措，但小团队可以以闪电般的速度行动并让事情发生，因为这是它的一方面。
Sanchan Saxena: The other culture that I love about Coinbase is this idea of how we make decisions.
Sanchan Saxena：我喜欢 Coinbase 的另一种文化是我们如何决策的理念。
Emily, our COO, posted a blog.
我们的首席运营官艾米丽（Emily）发布了一篇博客。
It's public.
这是公开的。
You guys can all read it.
大家可以去读一读。
It's a very different mindset of making decisions, so let me unpack that.
这是一种非常不同的决策心态，所以让我来解释一下。
When I was at Facebook, Instagram and other companies, other tech companies, there's a saying around product and design, marketing.
当我在 Facebook、Instagram 和其他公司、其他科技公司工作时，有一种关于产品和设计、营销的说法。
All these cross functional people need to come together to build a product.
所有这些跨职能人员需要聚集在一起来构建产品。
Sanchan Saxena: And oftentimes you will notice that the decision making process could get a little bit convoluted, not always, but a little bit convoluted.
Sanchan Saxena：通常，您会注意到决策过程可能会变得有点复杂，并非总是如此，但有点复杂。
It's like, okay, what do you like?
就像，好吧，你喜欢什么？
What do you don't like?
你不喜欢什么？
You got to align influence, align influence.
你必须调整影响力，调整影响力。
And next thing you know ...
接下来你知道的......
And again, I'm not saying always, but sometimes it can happen that the thing that ends up shipping is the least common denominator that annoyed everybody the least amount, right?
再说一次，我并不是说总是这样，但有时可能会发生这样的情况：最终发货的东西是最小公分母，让每个人烦恼最少，对吗？
Sanchan Saxena: Everybody said, "Yeah, I could get comfortable with that.
Sanchan Saxena：每个人都说，“是的，我对此感到满意。
I could get comfortable with that." And Brian has an allergic reaction to things like committees.
我对此感到很舒服。”布莱恩对委员会之类的东西有过敏反应。
It's like designing by committee.
这就像由委员会设计。
The idea that we have, and you can read it in her blog, is the idea of a directly responsible individual or DRI.
我们的想法是直接负责人或 DRI 的想法，您可以在她的博客中阅读。
Sanchan Saxena: For every project, we'll establish a DRI.
Sanchan Saxena：对于每个项目，我们都会建立一个 DRI。
It could be a person in operations, engineering, design, legal, marketing, whatever that is, depending on the nature of the project.
它可以是运营、工程、设计、法律、营销等领域的人员，无论是什么，具体取决于项目的性质。
And DRI's job is to then listen to the cross functional partners, get their input.
DRI 的工作就是听取跨职能合作伙伴的意见，获取他们的意见。
And we have a written culture like Amazon, so every input is provided in writing.
我们有像亚马逊这样的书面文化，因此每项输入都以书面形式提供。
Right?
正确的？
Sanchan Saxena: You can see what head of legal is saying.
Sanchan Saxena：您可以看看法务主管是怎么说的。
You can see what your head of operations is saying, what engineering is saying in writing.
您可以看到您的运营主管在说什么，工程在书面上说什么。
And then the DRI's job is to take all that input and make a decision.
然后 DRI 的工作就是收集所有这些意见并做出决定。
Not take all that input and do necessarily what's right by everybody, right?
不一定要接受所有的意见并做每个人都正确的事情，对吧？
Still do what's right by the customer.
仍然做客户认为正确的事情。
Still do what's right by the business.
仍然做企业正确的事情。
Still do what's right for the user in many regards.
在很多方面仍然为用户做正确的事情。
Sanchan Saxena: But take that input, inform yourself with all the right things, but it's your job to then make the final call.
Sanchan Saxena：但是接受这些意见，告诉自己所有正确的事情，但做出最后决定是你的工作。
Whoever you might be, sometimes it's operations, sometimes it's engineering, sometimes it's design and product, and others then have to disagree and champion that for you.
无论你是谁，有时是运营，有时是工程，有时是设计和产品，然后其他人必须不同意并为你辩护。
I might go in and I might write in that rapid, "I disagree with this.
我可能会进去并快速地写道：“我不同意这一点。
Here are the reasons why."
原因如下。”
Sanchan Saxena: But the decider the DRI has to make that decision.
Sanchan Saxena：但是 DRI 必须做出决定。
And once that decision is made, I got to disagree and commit to it and champion it with the rest of the team as if it was my decision.
一旦做出决定，我就必须不同意并承诺它，并与团队其他成员一起支持它，就好像这是我的决定一样。
It's not just disagree and commit, it's disagree and champion.
这不仅仅是不同意和承诺，而是不同意和拥护。
Go out there and evangelize that this is the right thing to do.
出去宣传这是正确的事情。
Now, there are lots of advantages of that.
现在，它有很多优点。
Sanchan Saxena: It cuts all the passive aggressive behaviors that all of us have seen in different companies.
Sanchan Saxena：它消除了我们在不同公司中看到的所有被动攻击行为。
It's like, "Ah, I got to go talk to this head of X, and I got to be nice.
就像是，“啊，我得去跟 X 的负责人谈谈，而且我必须表现得友善。
I got to make sure we have this relationship." And the decision gets dragged over two, three months, because the speed of decision making is directly proportional to the strength of your relationship in those companies, right?
我必须确保我们有这种关系。”而且这个决定会拖延两三个月，因为决策的速度与你在这些公司的关系强度成正比，对吗？
Sanchan Saxena: Here, the speed of decision making is directly proportional to the person who's directly responsible from making that decision happen.
Sanchan Saxena：在这里，决策的速度与直接负责决策的人员成正比。
And it is, of course, incumbent upon that person to listen and get unsolicited advice.
当然，这个人有责任倾听并获得主动提出的建议。
But at the end of the day, they're the single .
但最终，他们还是单身。
They're the final DRI.
他们是最后的 DRI。
It's a very different culture than any place I've worked in.
这是一种与我工作过的任何地方都非常不同的文化。
And when you join Coinbase, we have to orient you by saying, "Look, this is how you operate," very different than any other company.
当你加入 Coinbase 时，我们必须通过说“看，这就是你的运作方式”来引导你，这与任何其他公司都非常不同。
Lenny: That's so interesting.
莱尼：这太有趣了。
Is that how big decisions are made or does that filter down to even individual teams where a PM or whoever is a DRI in a team makes decisions this way?
这就是重大决策的制定方式吗？或者，这种决策是否会渗透到各个团队，其中 PM 或团队中的 DRI 人员都以这种方式做出决策？
Sanchan Saxena: Individual people as well.
Sanchan Saxena：个人也是如此。
You will see PMs writing, engineers writing, and operations and legal writing a rapid.
你会看到产品经理写作、工程师写作、运营和法律写作快速进行。
It's called rapid.
这叫快速。
It's for rapid decision making.
这是为了快速做出决策。
And it's the same format that I would use if I want Brian to make a decision.
如果我想让布莱恩做出决定，我也会使用同样的格式。
It's the same format someone will use inside their team.
这与团队内部使用的格式相同。
Sanchan Saxena: Let's say you are working on a particular project, you will write that rapid.
Sanchan Saxena：假设您正在开发一个特定项目，您会写得那么快。
It's the same exact format, same exact mechanism, and every team uses those mechanisms to actually scale.
它具有相同的精确格式、相同的精确机制，并且每个团队都使用这些机制来实际扩展。
Otherwise, decision making can actually be the of hypergrowth companies.
否则，决策实际上可能是高速增长公司的决策。
Lenny: Is there anything else that's unique about how Coinbase operates that's stuck with you that you might take to a future company that you may work at if you ever leave Coinbase?
Lenny：Coinbase 的运营方式是否有其他独特之处让您印象深刻，如果您离开 Coinbase，您可能会将其带到未来的公司工作？
Sanchan Saxena: Yeah.
桑尚·萨克塞纳：是的。
I think decision making is one.
我认为决策就是其中之一。
I think just the idea of how to operate in such an ambiguous industry.
我想的只是如何在这样一个模糊的行业中运作的想法。
When I got to Airbnb, ambiguity was a lot, because it was the first time we were doing home sharing as an example, right?
当我到达 Airbnb 时，有很多歧义，因为这是我们第一次以家庭共享为例，对吗？
And it was not done before.
而且以前没有这样做过。
But you had had the overall understanding of the travel industry, the customer, the regulation, et cetera, et cetera.
但你对旅游业、客户、监管等等都有全面的了解。
Sanchan Saxena: But I think is a very ridiculously new thing.
Sanchan Saxena：但我认为这是一个非常可笑的新事物。
People sometimes ask me what's the future of NFD, I say, "Ta-da!
有时人们问我 NFD 的未来是什么，我说：“Ta-da！
I don't know," I'll experiment, figure it out.
我不知道，”我会尝试一下，找出答案。
I have an opinion.
我有一个意见。
I'll take that opinion and start to execute against it, but nobody knows.
我会接受这个观点并开始执行它，但没有人知道。
How do you build conviction in a highly noisy world?
如何在高度喧闹的世界中树立信念？
Sanchan Saxena: I mean, Web 3.0, as you're probably on Twitter, everybody has an opinion on Twitter.
Sanchan Saxena：我的意思是，Web 3.0，就像您可能在 Twitter 上一样，每个人对 Twitter 都有自己的看法。
X should do Y, and Y should do Z, and this is how it should be.
X应该做Y，Y应该做Z，本来就是这样的。
Right?And the thing that I would take with me everywhere is, how do you build in that noise?
对吗？我随身携带的东西是，如何在噪音中构建？
How do you stay focused and still build what you believe is the right thing and still let the noise happen around you?
你如何保持专注，仍然建立你认为正确的事情，同时仍然让噪音发生在你周围？
Sanchan Saxena: And I think as Web 3.0 advances and every company becomes a Web 3.0 company, that's at least my prediction in this decade, just like every company became a mobile company, didn't have a mobile app, but became a mobile company, I think every company will become a Web 3.0 company.
Sanchan Saxena：我认为随着 Web 3.0 的进步，每个公司都会成为 Web 3.0 公司，这至少是我在这十年中的预测，就像每个公司都成为移动公司，没有移动应用程序，但成为移动公司一样，我认为每个公司都会成为 Web 3.0 公司。
Everybody will have to build that muscle of operating in that level of ambiguity where there's literally no data and lot of noise.
每个人都必须增强在没有数据和大量噪音的模糊程度下运作的能力。
Lenny: Is there some way of operating at Coinbase that allows them to operate in this ambiguity and focus?
Lenny：Coinbase 是否有某种运营方式可以让他们在这种模糊性和集中性的情况下运营？
Is there something that you've seen there?
你在那里见过什么东西吗？
Sanchan Saxena: Yeah.
桑尚·萨克塞纳：是的。
I mean, we have our own flaws.
我的意思是，我们有自己的缺陷。
I mean, no, company is perfect.
我的意思是，不，公司是完美的。
We have our own flaws.
我们有自己的缺陷。
But what we have figured out is how to operate, just the way I described before, which is a DRI mindset culture.
但我们已经弄清楚了如何运作，就像我之前描述的那样，这就是 DRI 思维文化。
Instead of having 15 people have 15 different perspectives, et cetera, it should all be amalgamated into one rapid.
与其让 15 个人拥有 15 种不同的观点等等，不如将其全部合并为一个急流。
Sanchan Saxena: And we trust our leaders.
Sanchan Saxena：我们信任我们的领导人。
We trust the DRI, whoever that DRI is, to make the decision.
我们相信 DRI（无论 DRI 是谁）能够做出决定。
And then we start going towards the same direction.
然后我们开始朝同一个方向前进。
We ignore all the noise over there.
我们忽略了那里的所有噪音。
Again, no company is perfect yet.
再说一次，没有一家公司是完美的。
We are still learning, but this is something I found to be very effective.
我们仍在学习，但我发现这是非常有效的。
Lenny: On the thread of Web 3.0, if someone's thinking about like, "Should I get into a Web 3.0 sort of company?
Lenny：在 Web 3.0 的话题上，如果有人在想，“我应该进入一家 Web 3.0 之类的公司吗？
Should I not?" what sort of people do you find are most successful maybe on the product side specifically, but even broadly, folks that may enjoy the world of Web 3.0 and others that maybe not?
我不应该吗？”您发现什么样的人在产品方面最成功，但更广泛地说，是那些可能喜欢 Web 3.0 世界的人，而其他人可能不喜欢？
Sanchan Saxena: Yeah, I think Web 3.0 is definitely at a stage right now where I'm seeing a lot of influx of people from Web 2.0 world.
Sanchan Saxena：是的，我认为 Web 3.0 现在确实处于这样一个阶段，我看到很多人从 Web 2.0 世界涌入。
Literally, if I look at my LinkedIn post, there's somebody saying, "Ta-da!
从字面上看，如果我查看我的 LinkedIn 帖子，就会有人说：“Ta-da！
I left X and I'm joining a Web 3.0 company." So there's already.
我离开了 X，加入了一家 Web 3.0 公司。”所以已经有了。
Lenny: Or starters pivoting to Web 3.0 in your entire team.
Lenny：或者是整个团队开始转向 Web 3.0。
Sanchan Saxena: Exactly, starters pivoting to Web 3.0 as well.
Sanchan Saxena：没错，初学者也转向 Web 3.0。
I feel like when I joined ...
刚加入的时候感觉...
I mean, I joined very recently.
我的意思是，我最近才加入。
I mean, not long time ago.
我的意思是，不久前。
When I joined, it was a very different conversation.
当我加入时，这是一次非常不同的对话。
I was still telling execs and others at Google and Facebook, "This is why you should join.
我仍然告诉谷歌和 Facebook 的高管和其他人，“这就是你应该加入的原因。
This is what's happening," et cetera, but now I feel like the world is slightly different.
这就是正在发生的事情，”等等，但现在我觉得世界略有不同。
Sanchan Saxena: I think the people who will thrive or who thrive in Web 3.0 are people who truly are able to understand the potential and disregard the constraints of today.
Sanchan Saxena：我认为那些能够在 Web 3.0 中蓬勃发展或能够蓬勃发展的人是真正能够理解其潜力并无视当今限制的人。
And here's what I mean by that.
这就是我的意思。
You all have seen articles written by really influential celebrities saying, "Web 3.0 sucks." And let me tell you why, because today sucks, right?
你们都看过一些非常有影响力的名人写的文章，他们说：“Web 3.0 很糟糕。”让我告诉你为什么，因为今天很糟糕，对吧？
We agree with the future principles of Web 3.0 of decentralization, this and that.
我们同意 Web 3.0 去中心化的未来原则，这样那样。
But look at today, everything is centralized.
但看看今天，一切都是中心化的。
Everything is blah, blah, blah.
一切都是废话、废话、废话。
Sanchan Saxena: I always remind those people as like the path to Web 3.0 goes, and from Web 2.0 to Web 3.0 goes through web 2.5.
Sanchan Saxena：我总是提醒那些人，就像通向 Web 3.0 的道路一样，从 Web 2.0 到 Web 3.0 还要经过 Web 2.5。
It doesn't go straight from Web 2.0 to Web 3.0.
它不会直接从 Web 2.0 过渡到 Web 3.0。
It goes through web 2.5.
它经历了 web 2.5。
You got to go through that journey.
你必须经历那段旅程。
And a lot of stuff that's happening in Web 3.0 today is web 2.5, 2.7 kind of.
今天 Web 3.0 中发生的很多事情都是 Web 2.5、2.7 之类的。
There's no truly decentralized stuff that is there, but the idealism is there.
那里没有真正去中心化的东西，但理想主义是存在的。
The closest thing is Ethereum probably, or Bitcoin.
最接近的可能是以太坊或比特币。
Sanchan Saxena: The idealism is there and we want to get to the towards that, right?
Sanchan Saxena：理想主义就在那里，我们希望朝这个方向努力，对吧？
The people who will thrive most are people who understand those ideals, understand the future and are builders.
最能蓬勃发展的人是那些理解这些理想、理解未来并且是建设者的人。
They want to take what it is today and then morph it into the ideals of tomorrow.
他们希望抓住今天的情况，然后将其转变为明天的理想。
I remember I'm a history buff and I love watching the history of technology.
我记得我是一个历史爱好者，我喜欢看科技的历史。
Sanchan Saxena: And there's a video on YouTube which describes someone playing with the internet back in 1986, '87, '89, right?
Sanchan Saxena：YouTube 上有一个视频，描述有人在 1986 年、87 年、89 年玩互联网，对吧？
And what you had to do was if I wanted to visit Lenny's website, here's what I'll do.
你必须做的是，如果我想访问莱尼的网站，这就是我要做的。
I'll type 192.
我会输入 192。
whatever the IP address was, and then I'm going to hit enter on a blue screen.
无论 IP 地址是什么，然后我都会在蓝屏上按 Enter 键。
And then there'll be things coming down and I'll pay $200 to just access his website.
然后就会出现一些问题，我将支付 200 美元才能访问他的网站。
Sanchan Saxena: too, right?
Sanchan Saxena：也是，对吧？
But if you can get past that and see that someday Lenny and I will actually have a podcast, video podcast or YouTube podcast over the internet, and we'll be able to see each other and record that shit, that is powerful.
但如果你能克服这一点，看到有一天莱尼和我实际上会在互联网上播放播客、视频播客或 YouTube 播客，我们将能够看到对方并录制这些内容，那就太强大了。
We are looking for people at this stage who believe in that journey.
我们正在寻找现阶段相信这一旅程的人。
Lenny: I love that.
莱尼：我喜欢这个。
And just the idea of hiring and joining company, I wanted to touch on hiring advice.
关于招聘和加入公司的想法，我想谈谈招聘建议。
You're really good at hiring.
你真的很擅长招聘。
You've hired many people, you've interviewed tons and tons of PMs, and so I just wanted to touch on this before we wrap up.
你雇佣了很多人，面试过无数的产品经理，所以我想在结束之前谈谈这个。
Lenny: I find that hiring and just finding people as maybe the single biggest pain point for companies these days and startups especially.
莱尼：我发现招聘和寻找人才可能是当今公司尤其是初创公司最大的痛点。
Do you have any advice for our founders or product leaders or just leaders in general for hiring, including finding people and closing them, that kind of thing?
您对我们的创始人或产品负责人或一般领导者在招聘方面有什么建议，包括寻找人员和关闭他们之类的事情吗？
Sanchan Saxena: Yeah.
桑尚·萨克塞纳：是的。
I think maybe I can focus a little bit about what are some of the things that I believe are incredibly important for startups to get right when they're hiring.
我想也许我可以稍微关注一下我认为对于初创公司在招聘时做好准备非常重要的一些事情。
The couple of things to remember is that what really matters, what's highly code related to a startup success isn't that they used a process like scrum, like this, like that.
需要记住的两件事是，真正重要的、与初创公司成功高度相关的代码并不是他们使用了像 scrum 这样那样的流程。
Sanchan Saxena: Well, what's highly correlated is that somebody bloody knew what to do when.
Sanchan Saxena：嗯，高度相关的是有人知道什么时候该做什么。
That is the most important thing.
这是最重要的事情。
And I call that content.
我称之为内容。
Content means what you do when.
内容意味着你什么时候做什么。
Process means how you do the thing that I just said.
流程意味着你如何做我刚才说的事情。
And I think there's a very easy love affection towards process.
我认为人们对过程有一种非常简单的热爱。
Sanchan Saxena: And I think Reed Hastings has talked about this in their culture deck.
Sanchan Saxena：我认为里德黑斯廷斯在他们的文化甲板上谈到了这一点。
Steve jobs has also talked about in the past is that, oftentimes we gravitate towards people who know how to avoid mistakes, who know how to create a process.
史蒂夫·乔布斯过去也谈到过，我们常常会被那些知道如何避免错误、知道如何创建流程的人所吸引。
Here's what a typical cycle is.
这是典型的周期。
You get bigger and bigger, you start making mistakes, you're like, "Oh, we got to create a process so we don't make the same mistake again."
你变得越来越大，你开始犯错误，你会想，“哦，我们必须创建一个流程，这样我们就不会再犯同样的错误。”
Sanchan Saxena: And next thing you know, over a period of time, the process becomes the product.
Sanchan Saxena：接下来你知道，经过一段时间，过程就会变成产品。
Every morning you wake up, you look at your calendar, 80% of the time as an exec you are moving the process, you are managing the process, and that process becomes the product, and you lose sight of what the real product is, who your real customers are.
每天早上醒来，你都会查看日历，作为一名高管，80% 的时间你都在移动流程、管理流程，而流程就变成了产品，而你却看不到真正的产品是什么，真正的客户是谁。
Sanchan Saxena: My advice to people, especially in early stage startups is bring in people who know content and teach them process, as opposed to bringing in people who know process and trying to teach them content, because that's a bloody hard thing to do.
Sanchan Saxena：我对人们的建议，特别是在早期初创企业中，是引进了解内容的人并教他们流程，而不是引进了解流程的人并试图教他们内容，因为这是一件非常困难的事情。
Sanchan Saxena: And this obsession about a lot of funders ask me when I consult with them is like, "Should we do scrum?
Sanchan Saxena：当我咨询许多资助者时，他们会问我这样的问题：“我们应该进行 Scrum 吗？
Should we do X, Y, Z process?" I'm like, "You can do whatever you want.
我们应该进行 X、Y、Z 过程吗？”我说：“你可以做任何你想做的事。
It doesn't matter.
没关系。
You can try any of those things.
你可以尝试任何这些事情。
It will not be correlated to your success." And maybe to some degree, but not a lot of degree.
这与你的成功无关。”也许在某种程度上，但不是很多。
Sanchan Saxena: What you really need to figure out is, who do you hire, who can actually understand what the content of your product is, what the content of your customers is?
Sanchan Saxena：你真正需要弄清楚的是，你雇用谁，谁能够真正理解你的产品的内容是什么，你的客户的内容是什么？
How do you win in that industry that you're operating in?
您如何在您所在的行业中获胜？
And make sure that you stay obsessed over there, right, as opposed to the process.
并确保你对那里保持着迷，对吧，而不是过程。
This is something that Brian Chesky has grilled in me.
这是布莱恩·切斯基（Brian Chesky）向我提出的问题。
Sanchan Saxena: Hire executives who know how to execute.
Sanchan Saxena：聘请懂得如何执行的高管。
And his idea was, let's say Sanchan's entire team disappears, and then I go to Brian and say, "Hey, Brian, I got to hire this organization, I got to hire these people, and then I'll tell you what to build, or I'll then build." Right?
他的想法是，假设 Sanchan 的整个团队都消失了，然后我去找布莱恩说，“嘿，布莱恩，我必须雇用这个组织，我必须雇用这些人，然后我会告诉你要构建什么，或者我会构建。”正确的？
Now I should be able to then crawl up my sleeve, if I'm a content kind of a leader, and I should do exactly what my team did.
现在，如果我是一位知足的领导者，我应该能够袖手旁观，并且我应该完全按照我的团队所做的去做。
Sanchan Saxena: Maybe not with the same capacity, because if I have so many people team, I can't do so many people worth of work.
Sanchan Saxena：也许能力不一样，因为如果我有这么多人的团队，我就无法做这么多人值得做的工作。
But at least be able to tell you, "This is what we should build.
但至少能够告诉你，“这就是我们应该建立的。
This is when we should build.
这是我们应该建造的时候。
This is how we should build." Right?
这就是我们应该如何建设。”正确的？
I shouldn't be a leader who just delegates to the extent that I forgot what content is, right?
我不应该成为一个仅仅授权而忘记内容是什么的领导者，对吗？
And that is a very important piece.
这是非常重要的一部分。
Lenny: When you're looking for a leader like that, because that sounds amazing, what do you look for?
莱尼：当你在寻找这样的领导者时，因为这听起来很棒，你在寻找什么？
How do you know if there's that sort of leader when you're interviewing or just kind of evaluating?
当你面试或只是进行评估时，你怎么知道是否有这样的领导者？
Sanchan Saxena: One of the things we did at Airbnb, because this was the thesis that we had over there, we actually changed our interview process around this.
Sanchan Saxena：我们在 Airbnb 所做的事情之一，因为这是我们在那里的论文，我们实际上围绕这个改变了我们的面试流程。
We will give people a work challenge.
我们会给人们带来工作挑战。
You're very familiar with that.
你对此非常熟悉。
Most people say, "Come and do a presentation." No, we actually gave you a work challenge.
大多数人会说：“来吧，做一个演示。”不，我们实际上给了你一个工作挑战。
Sanchan Saxena: We said, "This is the problem you're facing.
Sanchan Saxena：我们说，“这就是你面临的问题。
How are you going to solve it?" Right.
你准备怎么解决？”正确的。
We're facing Airbnb Plus problem, we need to build millions of homes that are Airbnb Plus, but we don't know how to do that.
我们面临着 Airbnb Plus 问题，我们需要建造数百万套 Airbnb Plus 房屋，但我们不知道该怎么做。
What would you do?
你会怎么办？
And we want to see the depth of thinking.
我们希望看到思考的深度。
They don't know the right answer because they don't have the right data.
他们不知道正确的答案，因为他们没有正确的数据。
That's okay.
没关系。
Right?
正确的？
Sanchan Saxena: But they at least need to show us how they approach the problem.
Sanchan Saxena：但他们至少需要向我们展示他们如何解决这个问题。
What are they going to do?
他们要做什么？
And they need to show us the content of how they're going to do.
他们需要向我们展示他们将如何做的内容。
Some people will come in and say, and have seen slides in those presentation, they'll come in and say, "Here's my process.
有些人会进来说，看过这些演示文稿中的幻灯片后，他们会进来说：“这是我的流程。
Ideation, execution, iteration." That's okay.
构思、执行、迭代。”没关系。
I want to know what you're going to do inside of ideation.
我想知道你在构思过程中要做什么。
Sanchan Saxena: Some execs will come in presenter say, "Well, the first thing I'm going to do is go out there and figure out are their third party companies who can actually scale my operations without building it in now." That is content, right?
Sanchan Saxena：一些高管会在演讲中说：“好吧，我要做的第一件事就是出去找出他们的第三方公司，他们实际上可以扩展我的业务，而无需现在建立它。”这就是内容，对吧？
And I want to evaluate that.
我想对此进行评估。
Sanchan Saxena: The second thing we will do is in our interview process as well, if it's an exec, Brian will spend time and I will spend time, anybody else will spend time, we will focus on whatever you did in the past, tell me the role that you played in that versus telling me everything that your team did.
Sanchan Saxena：我们要做的第二件事也是在面试过程中，如果是高管，布莱恩会花时间，我也会花时间，其他人都会花时间，我们将关注你过去所做的事情，告诉我你在其中扮演的角色，而不是告诉我你的团队所做的一切。
Right?
正确的？
To be precise, the role you played.
准确来说，是你扮演的角色。
Sanchan Saxena: And this is something I tell a lot of my folks at Coinbase as well is like, you got to be able to bring things to me, escalate to me when you need my help and let me help you be successful.
Sanchan Saxena：这也是我对 Coinbase 的很多同事说的，你必须能够把事情带给我，当你需要我的帮助时向我升级，让我帮助你取得成功。
My role is such that I have a large team and I can't do everything.
我的角色是这样的，我有一个很大的团队，我无法包办一切。
But what I can do is set them up for success.
但我能做的就是帮助他们走向成功。
How?
如何？
Of course, the tactical supply of resources.
当然还有战术资源的供给。
Sanchan Saxena: But more importantly, when we are thinking about the content, when we think about what to do, when to do, how to do it, let's sit together and think about that.
Sanchan Saxena：但更重要的是，当我们思考内容时，当我们思考要做什么、何时做、如何做时，让我们坐在一起思考。
Escalate to me, bring things to me.
向我升级，把事情带给我。
I will go into the mud with you and I'll create that clay for you, with you.
我会和你一起走进泥土，我会和你一起为你创造泥土。
And that is how I stay relevant.
这就是我保持相关性的方式。
But more importantly, that is the value that I get to help my team succeed as well.
但更重要的是，这也是我帮助我的团队取得成功的价值。
Lenny: I love that.
莱尼：我喜欢这个。
I was just thinking that the fact that you call kind of the roadmap and the plan like a content, that makes you a content creator, and how does that feel?
我只是在想，事实上，您将路线图和计划称为内容，这使您成为内容创建者，这感觉如何？
Sanchan Saxena: Yes, that does feel good.
Sanchan Saxena：是的，这确实感觉很好。
I mean, you should have the ability to create a roadmap and that is your creating content around that.
我的意思是，你应该有能力创建一个路线图，那就是你围绕它创建内容。
But the thing that I want to make sure people understand is that the format of that roadmap doesn't matter.
但我想确保人们理解的是，路线图的格式并不重要。
Whether you use Excel, or this, or that, it doesn't matter.
无论您使用 Excel，还是这个或那个，都没关系。
That process doesn't matter.
这个过程并不重要。
Sanchan Saxena: What matters is that you were able to come up with the right roadmap, which is what you're going to build, at what time you're going to build.
Sanchan Saxena：重要的是你能够制定出正确的路线图，这就是你要构建的内容以及你要构建的时间。
And that is a core value set of an individual or a leader that you should absolutely look for.
这是你绝对应该寻找的个人或领导者的核心价值观。
Sanchan Saxena: And so otherwise, my prediction is four or five years later or whatever the time is, that company will start to attract process people, and next thing you know, everybody in the company is a process person and nobody is a content person.
Sanchan Saxena：否则，我的预测是四五年后，或者无论什么时间，该公司将开始吸引流程人员，接下来你知道，公司中的每个人都是流程人员，没有人是满足的人。
Sanchan Saxena: And then what hands up happening is the founder ends up taking that burden of becoming the content person, and next thing you know, they can't scale.
Sanchan Saxena：然后发生的事情是创始人最终承担了成为内容人的负担，接下来你知道，他们无法扩展。
They just cannot scale.
他们就是无法扩展。
The company cannot scale.
公司无法扩大规模。
Lenny: Yeah, because process eventually just kind of starts to break down.
莱尼：是的，因为流程最终会开始崩溃。
Sanchan Saxena: Exactly.
Sanchan Saxena：没错。
There's a very good deck.
有一个非常好的甲板。
I'll encourage your audience to watch the Netflix Culture Deck.
我会鼓励观众观看 Netflix 文化展台。
And Reed Hastings talks about this at length, better than I did.
里德·黑斯廷斯详细地谈论了这个问题，比我讲得更好。
And it's a beautiful concept, it's a beautiful argument, and I think I will encourage every follower to start looking for that.
这是一个美丽的概念，这是一个美丽的论点，我想我会鼓励每个追随者开始寻找它。
Sanchan Saxena: And again, I'm not saying process shouldn't exist.
Sanchan Saxena：再说一遍，我并不是说流程不应该存在。
You absolutely need some process.
你绝对需要一些过程。
That's why you can scale.
这就是您可以扩展的原因。
You can't scale without some process as well.
如果没有一些流程，你也无法扩展。
But process is not the answer.
但过程并不是答案。
Content is the answer.
内容就是答案。
Lenny: I feel like I've taken enough of your time.
莱尼：我觉得我已经占用你足够的时间了。
And so we've gotten to the final part of our chat, which is the lightning round, where I'm going to ask you a few questions and then just tell me what first thing that comes to mind.
我们已经进入了聊天的最后部分，即闪电回合，我将问你们几个问题，然后告诉我首先想到的是什么。
If nothing comes to mind, that's totally cool too.
如果什么也没想到，那也很酷。
Does that sound good?
听起来不错吗？
Lenny: Okay.
莱尼：好的。
What's a book that you recommend most to other product leaders?
您最向其他产品负责人推荐的书是什么？
Sanchan Saxena: Two books come to mind.
Sanchan Saxena：我想到了两本书。
One is The Little Bets, which is how you live your life and how you build businesses with little bets.
其中之一是“小赌注”，这就是你如何通过小赌注过自己的生活以及如何建立企业。
And the other thing I would say The Innovator's Dilemma.
我想说的另一件事是“创新者的困境”。
Those are two of my favorite books and highly recommend everybody reading those.
这是我最喜欢的两本书，强烈推荐大家阅读它们。
Lenny: Awesome.
莱尼：太棒了。
What's a company that you recommend most to PMs that are looking for a new job other than Coinbase?
除了 Coinbase 之外，您最向正在寻找新工作的 PM 推荐哪家公司？
Sanchan Saxena: Yeah.
桑尚·萨克塞纳：是的。
I mean, I think there are tons of Web 3.0 companies or tons of other companies.
我的意思是，我认为有大量的 Web 3.0 公司或大量其他公司。
I would say amongst the companies , the insights say where it is.
我想说的是，在这些公司中，洞察力说明了它的位置。
I think Airbnb is a great company.
我认为 Airbnb 是一家伟大的公司。
People should definitely look at that company.
人们绝对应该关注那家公司。
It is once in a lifetime kind of a company as well, and people will enjoy working over there.
这也是一生一次的公司，人们会喜欢在那里工作。
Lenny: Agreed.
莱尼：同意。
What's your favorite app right now?
您现在最喜欢的应用程序是什么？
Sanchan Saxena: My favorite app right now, Coinbase NFT.
Sanchan Saxena：我现在最喜欢的应用程序，Coinbase NFT。
Lenny: Shit, I should have said other than Coinbase.
Lenny：妈的，我应该说的是 Coinbase 以外的东西。
All right, you get that.
好吧，你明白了。
Sanchan Saxena: I would say I love TikTok.
Sanchan Saxena：我想说我喜欢 TikTok。
I am on TikTok all the time.
我一直在玩 TikTok。
I love how entertaining it is.
我喜欢它的娱乐性。
I love how simple it is.
我喜欢它是多么简单。
I'm on TikTok all the time.
我一直在玩 TikTok。
Lenny: Same.
莱尼：一样。
We're in trouble.
我们有麻烦了。
Who is your favorite manager that you had?
您最喜欢的经理是谁？
Sanchan Saxena: Oh, my favorite manager.
Sanchan Saxena：哦，我最喜欢的经理。
It was my first manager.
这是我的第一位经理。
His name is Sashi.
他的名字叫萨西。
He was at Microsoft.
他在微软。
And he fundamentally helped change the trajectory of my life.
他从根本上改变了我的人生轨迹。
He believed in me.
他相信我。
And I was just out of college at that time.
那时我刚刚大学毕业。
And he invested in me.
他对我进行了投资。
The most important thing was he invested in me.
最重要的是他对我的投资。
If any successful person you meet in your life, one thing they will all tell you is at some point in their life, somebody believed in them and somebody invested in them, and that was that manager.
如果你在生活中遇到任何成功人士，他们都会告诉你一件事，那就是在他们生命中的某个时刻，有人相信他们，有人投资他们，那就是那位经理。
Lenny: Amazing.
莱尼：太棒了。
And then finally, what's a favorite interview question that you like to use?
最后，您最喜欢使用的面试问题是什么？
Sanchan Saxena: Tell me the story of your career and focus more on why you did what you did.
Sanchan Saxena：请告诉我您的职业生涯故事，并更多地关注您为何这么做。
And I ask this question because the resume is full of polished shit.
我问这个问题是因为我的简历里充满了光鲜亮丽的废话。
It's like, "Oh, I did this.
就像，“哦，我做到了。
I did this." Right?
我做到了这一点。”正确的？
I want to hear the story.
我想听故事。
And tell me why you did what you did.
并告诉我你为什么这么做。
And that tells me a lot about the person when they're answering the question, not the what.
当他们回答问题时，这告诉了我很多关于这个人的信息，而不是“什么”。
Because I can see that on the LinkedIn or the resume, but why, why they chose to do what they chose to do.
因为我可以在 LinkedIn 或简历上看到这一点，但是为什么，为什么他们选择做他们选择做的事情。
Lenny: I love that.
莱尼：我喜欢这个。
Where can folks find you online, and then how can listeners be helpful to you?
人们可以在网上哪里找到您，那么听众如何为您提供帮助？
Sanchan Saxena: Yeah.
桑尚·萨克塞纳：是的。
I mean, I'm pretty active on Twitter.
我的意思是，我在 Twitter 上非常活跃。
Now that you know, I'm also active on TikTok.
现在你知道了，我在 TikTok 上也很活跃。
But Twitter is probably the best place to follow me.
但 Twitter 可能是关注我的最佳地方。
And yeah, if you have any suggestion, anything you want to chat about, send me a message on Twitter, DM me, or LinkedIn.
是的，如果您有任何建议、任何想聊的话题，请在 Twitter、私信我或 LinkedIn 上给我发送消息。
One of those places and I'll be happy to chat with you.
其中之一，我很乐意与您聊天。
Lenny: And I imagine folks should check out Coinbase NFT and Coinbase Wallet?
Lenny：我想人们应该看看 Coinbase NFT 和 Coinbase 钱包？
Sanchan Saxena: Nft.coinbase.com.
Sanchan Saxena：Nft.coinbase.com。
Give it a shot and let us know what you think.
尝试一下，让我们知道您的想法。
Lenny: Amazing.
莱尼：太棒了。
Thank you so much, Sanchan, for being here.
非常感谢你，Sanchan，来到这里。
This was amazing.
这太棒了。
Sanchan Saxena: Thank you, Lenny, for having me.
Sanchan Saxena：谢谢你，Lenny，邀请我来。
Lenny: That was awesome.
莱尼：那太棒了。
Thank you for listening.
感谢您的聆听。
If you enjoyed the chat, don't forget to subscribe to the podcast.
如果您喜欢聊天，请不要忘记订阅播客。
You could also learn more at Lennyspodcast.com.
您还可以访问 Lennyspodcast.com 了解更多信息。
I'll see you in the next episode.
我们下一集见。