How to be more innovative | Sam Schillace (Microsoft deputy CTO, creator of Google Docs)

Sam Schillace: We tend to undervalue the things we're good at.

Sam Schillace：我们往往会低估自己擅长的事情。

We tend to think work has to be unpleasant.

我们倾向于认为工作一定是不愉快的。

And so if something is easy and fun, we don't tend to think it's valuable.

因此，如果某件事既简单又有趣，我们往往不会认为它有价值。

So I think lots of people gravitate in this direction of like, let's go do unpleasant things and grind our way through the career because that's the way to make it.

所以我认为很多人都倾向于这样的方向，比如，让我们去做一些不愉快的事情，在职业生涯中磨练自己的方式，因为这就是成功的方法。

But the reality is you should go do the thing that you feel guilty to get paid for, if there's a thing like that, and do the hell out of it, right?

但现实是，你应该去做那些让你为获得报酬而感到内疚的事情，如果有这样的事情，然后就去做吧，对吧？

Do it as hard as you can.

尽你所能地努力去做。

If you get pleasure from doing something that people want to pay you for, do it the best you can do it, as hard as you can do it.

如果你从做人们愿意付钱给你的事情中得到乐趣，那就尽你所能，尽你所能地去做。

And if that's messing around and playing around with cool ideas, do the hell out of that.

如果那是在胡闹，玩弄很酷的想法，那就滚蛋吧。

Work doesn't necessarily have to be hard.

工作不一定很辛苦。

Lenny: Today my guest is Sam Schillace.

莱尼：今天我的客人是萨姆·席勒斯。

Sam has an incredible resume that is very hard to summarize succinctly.

山姆的简历令人难以置信，很难简洁地概括。

I'll give it a shot.

我会尝试一下。

Currently, he is corporate vice president and deputy chief technology officer at Microsoft, where he leads efforts in the consumer product space, infrastructure, and AI.

目前，他担任微软公司副总裁兼副首席技术官，领导消费产品领域、基础设施和人工智能领域的工作。

Sam is most known for basically inventing Google Docs with his company Writely, which was acquired by Google, and became the foundation for what is now Google Workspace, which currently has over one billion active users a month.

Sam 最著名的事迹是与他的公司 Writely 一起发明了 Google Docs，该公司后来被 Google 收购，并成为现在的 Google Workspace 的基础，目前 Google Workspace 每月拥有超过 10 亿活跃用户。

Lenny: After joining Google, Sam ended up responsible for many of Google's consumer applications, including parts of Gmail, Maps, Automotive, Groups, Reader, and more.

Lenny：加入 Google 后，Sam 最终负责了 Google 的许多消费者应用程序，包括 Gmail、地图、汽车、群组、阅读器等的部分内容。

He's also founded six startups, was senior vice president of engineering at Box through their IPO.

他还创立了六家初创公司，并在 Box 首次公开募股期间担任工程高级副总裁。

He's also worked at Intuit, Macromedia.

他还曾在 Intuit 和 Macromedia 工作过。

He was even a VC at Google Ventures for a time.

他甚至还曾担任过谷歌风投的风险投资家。

As you'd suspect, we had a fairly wide-ranging conversation, but the core focus was around innovation, how to think big, how to come up with original ideas, why optimism is so important and powerful, and also a ton of career advice.

正如你所怀疑的那样，我们进行了相当广泛的对话，但核心焦点是创新、如何大胆思考、如何提出原创想法、为什么乐观如此重要和强大，以及大量的职业建议。

Sam is hilarious and not what I imagined a corporate vice president at Microsoft would be like, which gives me even more respect for Microsoft.

Sam 很搞笑，不是我想象中的微软公司副总裁，这让我更加尊重微软。

A big thank you to Brett Berson for making this introduction.

非常感谢 Brett Berson 的介绍。

With that, I bring you Sam Schillace, after a short word from our sponsors.

在我们的赞助商简短发言之后，我为您带来了 Sam Schillace。

Lenny: This time of year is prime for career reflection and setting goals for professional growth.

莱尼：每年的这个时候是职业反思和设定职业发展目标的黄金时间。

I always like to spend this time reflecting on what I accomplished the previous year, what I hope to accomplish the next year, and whether this is the year I look for a new opportunity.

我总是喜欢用这段时间反思我去年完成的事情，我希望明年完成的事情，以及今年是否是我寻找新机会的一年。

That's where today's sponsor, Teal, comes in.

这就是今天的赞助商 Teal 登场的地方。

Teal provides you with the tools to run an amazing job search.

Teal 为您提供了出色的求职工具。

With an AI-powered resume builder, job tracker, cover letter generator, and Chrome extension that integrates with over 40 job boards, Teal is the all-in-one platform you need to run a more streamlined and efficient job search and stand out in this competitive market.

Teal 拥有人工智能驱动的简历生成器、职位跟踪器、求职信生成器以及与 40 多个职位委员会集成的 Chrome 扩展程序，是您运行更精简、更高效的职位搜索并在这个竞争激烈的市场中脱颖而出所需的一体化平台。

There's a reason nearly 1 million people have trusted Teal to run their job search.

近 100 万人信任 Teal 来进行求职是有原因的。

If you're thinking of making a change in the new year, leverage Teal to grow your career on your own terms.

如果您想在新的一年做出改变，请利用青色按照自己的方式发展您的职业生涯。

Get started for free at tealhq.com/lenny.

请访问 tealhq.com/lenny 免费开始使用。

That's tealhq.com/lenny.

这是tealhq.com/lenny。

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Lenny：本集由 Vanta 为您带来，可帮助您简化安全合规性以加速您的成长。

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Lenny：超过 5,000 家快速发展的公司使用 Vanta 自动化 SOC 2 和其他框架所涉及的高达 90% 的工作。

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在有限的时间内，Lenny's Podcast 听众可享受 Vanta 1,000 美元优惠。

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访问vanta.com/lenny。

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请访问 V-A-N-T-A dot com/lenny，了解更多信息并申请折扣。

Get started today.

今天就开始吧。

Sam, thank you so much for being here, and welcome to the podcast.

山姆，非常感谢您来到这里，欢迎来到播客。

Lenny: A really fun fact about you is that apparently you have the very first Google Doc file.

Lenny：关于您的一个非常有趣的事实是，显然您拥有第一个 Google 文档文件。

I don't know what you call it.

我不知道你怎么称呼它。

The very first Google Doc document saved somewhere from before even Google Docs was a thing.

第一个 Google Doc 文档甚至在 Google Docs 出现之前就已经保存在某个地方了。

And does it still work in today's Google Docs?

它在今天的 Google 文档中仍然有效吗？

And what is in this document?

这份文件里有什么内容？

Sam Schillace: Yeah, it does actually still work.

Sam Schillace：是的，它实际上仍然有效。

It's pretty funny.

这很有趣。

Actually, if I move my camera for a second you might, if you're on YouTube, you can see the Writely thing in the background.

事实上，如果我移动相机一秒钟，如果你在 YouTube 上，你可能会在背景中看到 Writely 的东西。

Writely was the company that did Google Docs.

Writely 是一家开发 Google Docs 的公司。

Yeah, it still works.

Yeah, it still works.

And it's funny though because it's like the document of DCS, right?

这很有趣，因为它就像 DCS 的文档，对吧？

So we started off 2005, wrote this thing in C#, which is a little known, in our own...

所以我们从 2005 年开始，用 C# 写了这个东西，这是一个鲜为人知的东西，用我们自己的......

It was pre-cloud, so we had three file servers that we rented that were Windows machines in a data center in Texas with a sysadmin in the Philippines running them.

当时还没有云计算，所以我们租用了三台文件服务器，它们是德克萨斯州数据中心的 Windows 机器，由菲律宾的系统管理员运行。

So it started there.

So it started there.

Sam Schillace: And then when we moved to Google, we ported everything to Java, we moved all the data over into Bigtable.

Sam Schillace：然后，当我们转到 Google 时，我们将所有内容都移植到了 Java，我们将所有数据都转移到了 Bigtable 中。

And we didn't lose anything.

我们没有失去任何东西。

We never lost anybody's stuff.

我们从来没有丢失过任何人的东西。

So it's still there and moved across.

所以它仍然在那里并移动了。

And then so that's one backend migration, and there's another one with Spanner.

这就是一次后端迁移，还有另一次使用 Spanner。

And then the front end has been rewritten twice as well.

然后前端也重写了两次。

So it's like, is it really the same document?

所以这就像是，这真的是同一个文件吗？

I don't know.

我不知道。

The front end, back end have been rewritten.

前端、后端均已重写。

It's not much.

并不多。

It's just me saying something to Steve about, is collaboration working?

我只是向史蒂夫说了一些事情，合作有效吗？

Are we colliding on each other?

我们互相碰撞吗？

Because we were trying to figure out typing on one line, if that algorithm was working.

因为我们试图弄清楚在一行中输入的算法是否有效。

Sam Schillace: And then there's a picture of Edna from The Incredibles pasted into it.

山姆·席勒斯：然后粘贴了一张《超人总动员》中埃德娜的照片。

I don't know why.

我不知道为什么。

I think that came after, so I might've gone back and pasted that in.

我认为那是之后发生的，所以我可能会回去并将其粘贴进去。

I'm not sure when.

I'm not sure when.

We must've been testing pictures or something.

我们肯定一直在测试图片或其他东西。

Unfortunately, we don't have the version history anymore, so I don't know what was original, original.

不幸的是，我们不再有版本历史，所以我不知道什么是原始的、原始的。

But it is the oldest Google Doc from October 2005 or something like that.

但它是 2005 年 10 月或类似文件中最古老的 Google 文档。

Lenny: I love that this philosophical answer of, is it still the same Google Doc, considering all the code has been redone.

Lenny：我喜欢这个哲学答案，考虑到所有代码都已重做，它仍然是相同的 Google 文档吗？

Sam Schillace: Well, the Computer History Museum wants to curate it.

Sam Schillace：嗯，计算机历史博物馆想要策展它。

I talked to these guys and they were like, "Oh, that's so cool.

我和这些人交谈，他们说：“哦，那太酷了。

We'll take that." I'm like, "How?" I can make you a PDF.

We'll take that." I'm like, "How?" I can make you a PDF.

Now it's not the document.

现在不是文件了。

I can share you into it, but please don't edit it.

我可以分享给你，但请不要编辑它。

How do you curate this?

How do you curate this?

So that's funny.

所以这很有趣。

Lenny: Yeah.

莱尼：是的。

It needs to be on the blockchain.

它需要在区块链上。

Sam Schillace: Yeah.

Sam Schillace: Yeah.

Yeah.

是的。

If you made the NFT of it, that would be more authentic, I think, than the document almost.

如果你把它做成 NFT，我认为那几乎比文档更真实。

It's kind of funny.

这有点好笑。

Lenny: That's amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

And it's amazing that it still works.

令人惊奇的是它仍然有效。

That's a testament to, I don't know, you/Google.

我不知道，这是你/谷歌的证明。

Sam Schillace: Well, I'll tell you a quick Google story.

Sam Schillace：好吧，我会告诉你一个关于 Google 的简短故事。

When we migrated in to Google, we were very sneaky about it, and we put the site into "maintenance mode" for eight hours on a Sunday, where everything was just read-only.

当我们迁移到谷歌时，我们对此非常狡猾，我们在周日将网站置于“维护模式”八个小时，其中所有内容都是只读的。

And then we migrated all the data and moved everything and brought the new system up.

然后我们迁移了所有数据并移动了所有内容并启动了新系统。

And three days after that, Sergei was in a meeting with me and he's like, "So when are you guys going to move over to Google infrastructure?" And I got to tell them, "Oh yeah, we did it this weekend." No one noticed.

三天后，Sergei 与我开会，他说：“那么你们什么时候要转向 Google 基础设施？”我必须告诉他们，“哦，是的，我们这个周末做到了。”没有人注意到。

Some blogger in Germany noticed that the IP address changed and that was it.

德国的一些博主注意到 IP 地址发生了变化，仅此而已。

Nobody noticed it at all, so we were really good about it.

根本没有人注意到这一点，所以我们对此非常满意。

Lenny: Man, I love these sneaky stories.

莱尼：伙计，我喜欢这些偷偷摸摸的故事。

I'm hoping we hear more.

I'm hoping we hear more.

There's a bunch of stuff I want to cover, the first is this broad idea of disruptive innovation.

我想讲很多内容，首先是颠覆性创新的广泛理念。

I know that you spend a lot of time thinking about this.

我知道你花了很多时间思考这个问题。

Google Docs is a great example of this.

Google 文档就是一个很好的例子。

It feels like Microsoft increasingly is getting really good at this.

感觉微软在这方面越来越擅长了。

Just the idea of doing something completely new, oftentimes things that people didn't think were possible.

只是做一些全新的事情的想法，通常是人们认为不可能的事情。

So let me just ask a broad question.

让我问一个广泛的问题。

Why is this important to you?

为什么这对您很重要？

Why do you spend a lot of time thinking about this?

为什么你要花很多时间思考这个问题？

And then just what are some tools you've found to help you and other people think more innovatively, more originally?

那么您发现了哪些工具可以帮助您和其他人更具创新性、更具原创性地思考？

Sam Schillace: It's an interesting question.

萨姆·席勒斯：这是一个有趣的问题。

The why it's important part, I don't know, it just is.

我不知道为什么它很重要，但它就是如此。

Everything you're wearing, eating, using, listening to, sitting on, was a disruptive innovation at some point.

你穿的、吃的、使用的、听的、坐的所有东西在某种程度上都是颠覆性的创新。

That's how everything happens, right?

一切就是这样发生的，对吧？

I think there's this really interesting thing where everything new is threatening at some level at the beginning.

我认为这是一件非常有趣的事情，一切新事物在一开始就在某种程度上具有威胁性。

I mean, probably literally the first guy who invented chairs got shit from his tribe mates for making a chair.

我的意思是，也许第一个发明椅子的人因为制造椅子而从他的部落伙伴那里得到了屎。

And they're all obvious in retrospect, right?

回想起来，它们都是显而易见的，对吧？

Everything is obvious in retrospect.

回想起来，一切都是显而易见的。

Sam Schillace: But I think there's this really deep thing that people have where if something is disruptive of your worldview, it feels threatening, and you have this very stark choice to make that's either you're wrong or it's wrong.

萨姆·席勒斯：但我认为人们有一种非常深刻的感觉，如果某件事颠覆了你的世界观，它会让人感到威胁，你有一个非常严峻的选择，要么你错了，要么它错了。

And humans are storytellers.

人类是讲故事的人。

It's very easy for us to tell stories about why something is right or wrong if we're motivated to.

如果我们有动力的话，我们很容易讲述为什么某件事是对或错的故事。

And so I call these why-not questions.

所以我称这些为“为什么不”问题。

People ask these why-not questions a lot.

人们经常问这些“为什么不”的问题。

So a new thing pops up, and if you're not ready to receive it for some reason, you're not already half there or you don't have a problem that it solves or whatever, it's just threatening and irritating, and you come up with a why-not question.

因此，一个新事物出现了，如果你由于某种原因还没有准备好接受它，那么你还没有完成一半，或者你没有解决任何问题，或者其他什么，它只是威胁和恼人，你会提出一个“为什么不”的问题。

Sam Schillace: We heard a bunch of these with Google Docs, with Writely, in the early days about the browser wasn't ready, people wouldn't...

Sam Schillace：我们在 Google Docs 和 Writely 中听到了很多这样的说法，在早期，浏览器还没有准备好，人们不会......

The whole model of the cloud was like, people aren't going to trust you to store your files.

云的整个模型就像，人们不会信任你来存储你的文件。

That's really weird.

这真的很奇怪。

What if there's no connectivity?

如果没有连接怎么办？

I heard the no connectivity on an airplane story 100 times from journalists.

我从记者那里听过 100 遍关于飞机上没有网络的故事。

Like, "What if I'm on an airplane and I write stuff?" I'm like, "I don't know.

就像，“如果我在飞机上写东西怎么办？”我说：“我不知道。

There'll be connectivity on airplanes soon." Which there is.

飞机上很快就会实现连接。” Which there is.

And those are all just why-not questions.

这些都只是“为什么不”的问题。

Sam Schillace: I think the more interesting ones are the what-if questions, like, what if this does work?

Sam Schillace：我认为更有趣的是假设问题，比如，如果这确实有效怎么办？

Just use your imagination.

发挥你的想象力吧。

Think about, how far can I extend the curve?

想一想，我可以将曲线延伸多远？

What are the implications of that?

这意味着什么？

I'm an engineer, and engineers are fundamentally pessimistic people.

我是一名工程师，而工程师本质上都是悲观的人。

Somebody once told me engineers come into the world broken.

有人曾经告诉我，工程师来到这个世界时是破碎的。

They just look at everything as a problem to be solved.

他们只是将一切视为需要解决的问题。

And I think there's something to that.

我认为这是有原因的。

But I feel like I've missed out more by being pessimistic than I have by being too optimistic too early.

但我觉得我因悲观而错过的东西比因过早乐观而错过的东西还要多。

Sam Schillace: So I have this kind of mantra now that there's just not that much of a prize for being pessimistic and right, particularly in a moment like this.

萨姆·席勒斯（Sam Schillace）：所以我现在有这样的口头禅，即悲观和正确的人并没有太多的奖励，特别是在这样的时刻。

It's much better to be optimistic and wrong than pessimistic and right, I think.

我认为乐观但错误比悲观但正确要好得多。

So I don't know.

所以我不知道。

And I'm an impatient person.

而我又是一个没有耐心的人。

I'm a creative person.

我是一个有创造力的人。

I'm a messy person.

I'm a messy person.

I just like to create and explore and find stuff.

我只是喜欢创造、探索和寻找东西。

So disruptive innovation just seems natural to me.

因此，颠覆性创新对我来说似乎很自然。

But I think it's not an exaggeration to say, literally, that wheat you had in your bread this morning, if you eat bread, some weirdo was messing around with plants 1,000 years ago and everybody thought he was a nut, or she was a nut, and then we had wheat because somebody...

但我认为毫不夸张地说，今天早上你的面包里有小麦，如果你吃面包，1000年前有一个怪人在摆弄植物，每个人都认为他是坚果，或者她是坚果，然后我们有了小麦，因为有人……

Just everything, right?

就是一切，对吧？

Everything is like that.

一切都是这样。

Lenny: Along the same lines, I was actually just working on a post around first-principles thinking.

莱尼：同样，我实际上只是在写一篇关于第一性原理思考的帖子。

And I found this quote from Steve Jobs just reminding us that everything around us was designed by some person that wasn't necessarily that much smarter than you.

我发现史蒂夫·乔布斯的这句话只是提醒我们，我们周围的一切都是由某个人设计的，而这个人不一定比你聪明得多。

And there's no reason there isn't a better way.

没有理由没有更好的方法。

It just happens to be the way it is today.

碰巧就是今天这个样子。

Sam Schillace: Yeah.

萨姆·席勒斯：是的。

One of the other ones that I like to keep in mind is every new idea looks dumb at first.

我喜欢记住的另一件事是，每个新想法一开始看起来都很愚蠢。

Unfortunately, the dumb ideas also look dumb at first.

不幸的是，愚蠢的想法乍一看也很愚蠢。

It's not a perfect .

这不是一个完美的。

But the more disruptive they are, the more dumb you're going to feel they are.

但他们越具有破坏性，你就会觉得他们越愚蠢。

You always listen for stuff like if they say it's a toy or if it's practical or it's stupid or I don't get it or whatever, those are often...

你总是听一些东西，比如他们是否说这是一个玩具，或者它是否实用，或者它很愚蠢，或者我不明白它或者其他什么，这些通常是......

Toy is a good keyword.

玩具是一个很好的关键词。

If you hear people saying something's a toy, that's often a really good signifier that it's actually something real and threatening, and they can't think of a better criticism for it than it's just a toy right now.

如果你听到人们说某样东西是玩具，这通常是一个非常好的标志，表明它实际上是真实的且具有威胁性的东西，他们想不出比现在它只是一个玩具更好的批评。

Lenny: Yeah, I imagine people thought about Google Docs that way initially.

Lenny：是的，我想人们最初是这样看待 Google Docs 的。

It was like, "Oh, this little toy in the browser."

就像，“哦，浏览器中的这个小玩具。”

Sam Schillace: Yeah, we got all this stuff.

Sam Schillace：是的，我们得到了所有这些东西。

I mean, the real interesting thing, like I said at the beginning, you have this very binary reaction that's possible, right?

我的意思是，真正有趣的事情，就像我一开始说的，你有这种可能的二元反应，对吧？

You either understand it, in which case, you're super excited about it like, "Cool, the world's going to change in this exciting way." Or you don't and you reject it.

你要么理解它，在这种情况下，你就会对此感到非常兴奋，就像，“酷，世界将以这种令人兴奋的方式改变。”或者你不这样做并且拒绝它。

And to the degree that something is really disruptive, that reaction, that binary reaction gets really strong.

当某件事确实具有破坏性时，这种反应、这种二元反应就会变得非常强烈。

And so with something like G Docs, we got this thing with G Docs that was really confusing in the early days to me, where there was a small group of people that really liked it.

因此，对于像 G Docs 这样的东西，我们在 G Docs 中得到了这个东西，这在早期让我感到非常困惑，因为有一小群人真的很喜欢它。

Some of them liked it more than we liked it.

他们中的一些人比我们更喜欢它。

Nate Torkington over at Writely was this super huge early booster for it.

Writely 的 Nate Torkington 是它的超级巨大的早期推动者。

And I did not understand what he saw in it at first.

一开始我不明白他在里面看到了什么。

But then we had people that just wanted it to die in a fire.

但后来有人只想让它在火灾中死去。

Sam Schillace: And that bifurcation of love it, hate it, is really how you have an idea of whether you have impact in what you're building.

Sam Schillace：爱它和恨它的分歧实际上是你如何了解你是否对你正在构建的东西产生影响的方式。

If you get more of the bell curve of modern indifference and maybe mild like and mild dislike, that's an's an incremental product.

如果你得到更多现代冷漠的钟形曲线，也许有轻微的喜欢和轻微的不喜欢，那就是一个增量产品。

That's not really disrupting anything.

这并没有真正扰乱任何事情。

But if you look at something like ChatGPT where the entire world is like, "This is amazing." Or, "This is terrible." And there's not a whole lot in between, that's a very good signifier of it being truly impactful and disruptive.

但如果你看看像 ChatGPT 这样的东西，整个世界都会说：“这太棒了。”或者，“这太可怕了。”两者之间没有太多区别，这是一个非常好的标志，表明它确实具有影响力和破坏性。

Whether it's actually good or bad is a separate question.

它实际上是好是坏是一个单独的问题。

But there's no denying that that's a disruptive technology.

但不可否认的是，这是一项颠覆性技术。

Lenny: That's an awesome framework.

Lenny：这是一个很棒的框架。

Basically, if it feels like people sort of like it, mostly people don't care, very few people love it or hate it, probably not disruptive.

基本上，如果感觉人们有点喜欢它，大多数人都不在乎，很少有人喜欢它或讨厌它，可能不会造成破坏。

If some people absolutely love it and a lot of people really hate it, good sign.

如果有些人绝对喜欢它，而很多人真的讨厌它，这是个好兆头。

Sam Schillace: Right.

萨姆·席勒斯：对。

Yeah.

是的。

Actually, weirdly enough.

事实上，够奇怪的。

It's not voting, right?

这不是投票吧？

In the early days, we had, I don't know, a couple of million users, five million users, and there were still executives at Google telling me that it was a stupid idea and that it should stop and we shouldn't be doing it.

在早期，我不知道，我们有几百万用户，五百万用户，谷歌仍然有高管告诉我这是一个愚蠢的想法，它应该停止，我们不应该这样做。

So, for a long time, the haters outnumbered the people who were fans.

所以，很长一段时间，仇恨者的数量超过了粉丝的数量。

And who cares?

谁在乎呢？

Whatever.

任何。

It's fine.

没关系。

As long as you don't run out of the people who love it, that's fine.

只要不失去喜欢它的人，就可以了。

Lenny: Is there another example of you using this what-if approach either on a product you worked on or something you've seen and it working out?

Lenny：还有另一个例子可以说明您在您开发的产品或您见过的产品上使用了这种假设方法吗？

Sam Schillace: I'm doing a lot of it right now, honestly.

Sam Schillace：老实说，我现在正在做很多事情。

I mean, that's probably the most immediate example.

我的意思是，这可能是最直接的例子。

But I could almost point at any product and there's moments like that in there.

但我几乎可以指出任何产品，并且那里有类似的时刻。

But right now there's a lot of why-not stories, right, around generative AI.

但现在围绕生成人工智能有很多“为什么不”的故事。

So it's expensive, it hallucinates, you can't necessarily...

所以它很昂贵，它会产生幻觉，你不一定......

It's sarcastic, it's random, it doesn't do the same thing twice.

它是讽刺的，它是随机的，它不会做同样的事情两次。

Yeah, they're real, they're actual issues to solve, but I look at it and think, "Well, what if?

是的，它们是真实的，是需要解决的实际问题，但我看着它并想，“好吧，如果呢？

What if we can build software around it?

如果我们可以围绕它构建软件怎么办？

What if we can build more complicated programs than what we've been able to build?

如果我们可以构建比我们能够构建的更复杂的程序怎么办？

What if we actually have a reasoning engine that we can use to do meaningful things?

如果我们真的有一个推理引擎可以用来做有意义的事情怎么办？

What if this is really the second Industrial Revolution where, in the first one, we had a surplus of physical energy beyond just our bodies and things like water reels, and now we have a surplus of cognitive energy beyond just our brains, right?"

如果这真的是第二次工业革命，在第一次工业革命中，我们除了我们的身体和水卷轴之类的东西之外还有过剩的物理能量，现在我们除了我们的大脑之外还有过剩的认知能量，对吗？”

Sam Schillace: And that's a really transformational idea.

Sam Schillace：这确实是一个变革性的想法。

So I'm completely in that mode right now, honestly.

所以说实话，我现在完全处于这种模式。

I think that's just the right mindset for something that's obviously this disruptive, right or wrong.

我认为对于那些明显具有破坏性的事情来说，无论是对还是错，这都是正确的心态。

Tesla is a great example.

特斯拉就是一个很好的例子。

SpaceX is a great example where people are like, "That doesn't make any sense." And Elon's like, "Well, what if you could land rockets and reuse them and they get really cheap?

SpaceX 就是一个很好的例子，人们会说，“这没有任何意义。”埃隆说：“好吧，如果你可以让火箭着陆并重复使用它们并且它们变得非常便宜怎么办？

That's pretty amazing.

这真是太神奇了。

What if I can fix the battery problems and a car is basically a software product, right?" Those are pretty amazing what-if questions, right, of those products.

如果我可以解决电池问题并且汽车基本上是一个软件产品怎么办，对吗？”这些都是关于这些产品的非常令人惊奇的假设问题。

Lenny: Yeah.

莱尼：是的。

So in this work on understanding what first principles actually looks like when you're thinking from first principles, the steps are essentially, figure out what you want to do, figure out the levers that keep you from achieving that thing, and then basically question every assumption that stands in the way of making this possible.

因此，在这项关于理解第一原则实际上是什么样子的工作中，当你从第一原则思考时，步骤本质上是，弄清楚你想做什么，找出阻止你实现这一目标的杠杆，然后基本上质疑每一个阻碍实现这一目标的假设。

So I think Elon's a great...

所以我认为埃隆是一个伟大的...

The classic example.

经典的例子。

You can't talk about first-principles thinking without quoting Elon, telling stories of Elon.

谈论第一性原理思维时，不能不引用埃隆，不讲埃隆的故事。

But essentially, it's just, okay, how much would it cost to make this if we were to start over and not...

但本质上，这只是，好吧，如果我们重新开始而不是......

Sam Schillace: I mean, the why-nots, there are actually problems you need to pay attention to eventually to build stuff.

Sam Schillace：我的意思是，为什么不呢，实际上你最终需要注意一些问题来构建东西。

But once you have the what-if, right, just to pick on SpaceX for a second, right?

但一旦你有了假设，就可以暂时选择 SpaceX，对吗？

If you have what-if of like, "If I could make payload to space cost a lot less, what if?" Okay, that's amazing.

如果你有这样的假设：“如果我能让有效载荷进入太空的成本大大降低，那会怎么样？”好吧，太棒了。

That's an amazing world.

那是一个奇妙的世界。

Let's see if we can work on that problem.

让我们看看是否可以解决这个问题。

And then now you have all the why-nots?

现在你已经知道了所有为什么不呢？

Why not?

为什么不呢？

Why isn't it as cheap as it could be?

为什么它没有尽可能便宜？

And you can start to break the problem down and think about it that way.

你可以开始分解问题并这样思考。

It's a good model.

这是一个很好的模型。

Lenny: This connects to something else that I know you're big on, which is optimism, being optimistic.

莱尼：这与我知道你热衷的其他事情有关，那就是乐观，乐观。

There's this feeling that pessimism, you're often right.

有一种悲观的感觉，你常常是对的。

There's growing pessimism in the world in a lot of ways, especially in technology.

世界上的悲观情绪在很多方面都在增长，尤其是在科技领域。

I know you're a big proponent of staying optimistic.

我知道您非常支持保持乐观。

Can you just talk about why you think that's important and how you approach that?

您能否谈谈为什么您认为这很重要以及您如何实现这一点？

Sam Schillace: It's funny, it's a choice.

Sam Schillace：这很有趣，这是一个选择。

I'm not an optimistic person by nature.

我本质上不是一个乐观的人。

I'm just not.

我只是不是。

All the people in my life, if any of them listen to this, they'll just laugh at the idea that I'm a proponent for optimism per se.

我生命中的所有人，如果有人听到这个，他们只会嘲笑我本身是乐观主义支持者的想法。

It's just a conscious choice.

这只是一个有意识的选择。

I don't think you get very much for being pessimistic necessarily.

我认为悲观不一定会得到很多好处。

You definitely don't get a lot for being careless.

你绝对不会因粗心而得到很多好处。

You can be optimistic to the point of being careless and causing harm, for sure.

当然，你可能会乐观到粗心大意而造成伤害的程度。

Sam Schillace: Maybe a better way to say it is growth mindset, right?

Sam Schillace：也许更好的说法是成长心态，对吧？

You want to look at the possibilities rather than the limitations, and suspend some disbelief and just work on these problems.

你想要看到可能性而不是局限性，并暂停一些怀疑，只致力于解决这些问题。

I just personally feel like I've missed out on more than I've protected myself from.

我个人觉得我错过的东西比我保护自己的东西要多。

If I sum up both sides of that equation over my career, I wish I had been more open-minded and more optimistic, and more willing to try things, and more focused on possibilities rather than problems.

如果我在我的职业生涯中总结这个等式的两边，我希望我能更开放、更乐观、更愿意尝试事物、更关注可能性而不是问题。

Sam Schillace: And so I'm just personally choosing to do that, try to do that as a habit.

Sam Schillace：所以我只是个人选择这样做，尝试将其作为一种习惯。

Nothing deeper than that.

没有什么比这更深的了。

I just think it's a better place to be, particularly...

我只是认为这是一个更好的地方，特别是......

It's kind of funny.

这有点好笑。

When I came out here, I was pre-med.

当我来到这里时，我正在接受医学预科培训。

I dropped out of school.

我辍学了。

I came out to be a computer scientist with my friend.

我和我的朋友一起成为一名计算机科学家。

I didn't think of it that way.

我不这么认为。

I came out to have a job at Ashton-Tate with a friend of mine, and spent 10 years not understanding that I was actually in a career and thinking that it was a temporary thing where I had to go back to med school and get my degree and be a doctor or something boring like that.

我和我的一个朋友一起在阿什顿泰特大学找到了一份工作，花了十年时间不明白我实际上在从事一份职业，并认为这只是暂时的事情，我必须回到医学院并获得学位并成为一名医生或诸如此类的无聊事情。

And so for 35 years of doing this, it hasn't occurred to me that, oh, actually, I'm in this computer industry that's this technical industry that's constantly growing and constantly inventing things and constantly coming up with these new ideas.

因此，在从事此工作 35 年的时间里，我没有想到，哦，实际上，我身处这个计算机行业，这个技术行业不断发展，不断发明东西，不断提出这些新想法。

And actually, the best posture in that world is to be creative and curious and open and optimistic and try things and stuff like that.

事实上，这个世界上最好的姿态就是富有创造力、好奇心、开放和乐观，并尝试类似的事情。

Sam Schillace: The other thing I'll say about optimism too is related to doing these disruptive things like G Docs.

Sam Schillace：关于乐观，我要说的另一件事也与 G Docs 等颠覆性的事情有关。

Going back to this idea of all the good ideas look bad at first.

回到这个想法，所有好想法一开始看起来都很糟糕。

Okay, so that's a first principle.

好的，这是首要原则。

That's a sort of fundamental thing of you're going to constantly be challenged by the really good ideas.

这是一种基本的事情，你将不断受到真正好的想法的挑战。

So how do you overcome it?

那么如何克服它呢？

Well, one way you can overcome it is you want to be able to try things more easily.

好吧，克服这个问题的一种方法是你希望能够更轻松地尝试事情。

So part of that is being more optimistic, so being more willing to try stuff, and part of it is also just making it cheaper to try things.

因此，其中一部分是更加乐观，因此更愿意尝试新事物，一部分也是为了让尝试新事物变得更便宜。

Sam Schillace: Very early story of G Docs, when I had the idea for Writely, my two co-founders who were both deep domain experts in both app building and word processors were like, "The browser is never going to support this.

Sam Schillace：G Docs 的早期故事，当我产生 Writely 的想法时，我的两位联合创始人都是应用程序构建和文字处理方面的深度领域专家，他们说：“浏览器永远不会支持这一点。

It's a bad idea.

这是一个坏主意。

Let's not do this." And they were right and wrong at the same time.

我们不要这样做。”他们既对又错。

They were right that it didn't support even what we have today and wouldn't have supported a full experience, but wrong in that the world was going to change and evolve.

他们是对的，它甚至不支持我们今天所拥有的东西，也不会支持完整的体验，但他们错误的是，世界将会改变和发展。

And we would never have done the first experiment if it had been a long and costly thing to do, right?

如果第一个实验是一个漫长而昂贵的事情，我们就永远不会做，对吗？

Sam Schillace: So the fact that our tools were sharp and I could say, "Let's do this thing." And it only takes a couple of days to get it on its feet and see how it feels, it's kind of a form of optimism, right?

Sam Schillace：事实上，我们的工具很锋利，我可以说，“让我们来做这件事吧。”只需几天的时间就能让它站起来并看看感觉如何，这是一种乐观的形式，对吧？

If you're super pessimistic, you can be like, "Even that's not worth it.

如果你超级悲观，你可能会说，“即使这样也不值得。

Two days is a waste of time." So there's always a little bit of a leap of faith.

两天真是浪费时间。”所以总是有一点信仰的飞跃。

And then you want to make those as consumable as possible.

然后你想让它们尽可能成为可消耗的。

You want to be able to try things out quickly and learn things and do these experiments.

您希望能够快速尝试、学习并进行这些实验。

Sam Schillace: Now, lots of people have said that before, but I think all those pieces connect for me in this idea of being optimistic and open to trying stuff.

Sam Schillace：现在，很多人都这么说过，但我认为所有这些内容都与我的乐观和乐于尝试的想法联系在一起。

Because stuff always is different.

因为事物总是不同的。

You're always wrong about products.

你对产品的看法总是错误的。

That's one of my other rules is you're just always wrong.

这是我的另一条规则，那就是你总是错的。

And so you have to try it.

所以你必须尝试一下。

You have to put it in front of people.

你必须把它放在人们面前。

You have to try it yourself before you'll understand it.

你必须亲自尝试一下才能理解。

No one can really design products in their head completely as far as I can tell.

据我所知，没有人能够真正完全在自己的头脑中设计产品。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

There's a few threads I want to follow there.

我想关注一些线索。

But this is also a tool that I found came up again and again in first-principles thinking, people that are really good at this, is just trying it.

但这也是我发现在第一性原理思维中一次又一次出现的工具，真正擅长于此的人只是在尝试。

There's a lot of just, "Nah, it's not going to work." And exactly as you just described, you often find out you're completely wrong when you actually try it out.

很多人只是说：“不，这行不通。”正如您刚才所描述的，当您实际尝试时，您常常会发现自己完全错误。

And you have this quote, I think in one of your newsletter posts, talking about building Google Docs.

我想在您的一篇时事通讯文章中，您引用了这句话，谈论构建 Google 文档。

You describe it as just fuck around.

你把它描述为只是乱搞。

Lenny: Get to the edge of something and fuck around.

莱尼：到某事的边缘去乱搞。

That's the strategy.

这就是策略。

Sam Schillace: Yeah.

萨姆·席勒斯：是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Get to the edge is only...

到达边缘只是...

Get your tools as sharp as you can get them to be.

让你的工具尽可能锋利。

Make it so that you can try lots of cheap experiments, right?

这样你就可以尝试很多廉价的实验，对吗？

And just mess around and see what happens, see what pops out.

到处乱搞，看看会发生什么，看看会出现什么。

And just try to be observant.

并尽量保持观察力。

I think the other part of optimism too is there's a receptiveness to it, right?

我认为乐观的另一部分是人们对它的接受度，对吗？

If you're very pessimistic, you might miss the surprising result that pops out of an experiment.

如果您非常悲观，您可能会错过实验中出现的令人惊讶的结果。

You might force yourself to do a bunch of experiments grudgingly, but you're like, "You know what?

你可能会强迫自己不情愿地做一堆实验，但你会想，“你知道吗？

I hate this.

我讨厌这个。

I'm doing four experiments today because I have to do it because I want to be an entrepreneur, but it sucks and everything's miserable and black." And then you won't notice that, oh, this thing didn't work, but it didn't work in an interesting way.

我今天做了四个实验，因为我必须这样做，因为我想成为一名企业家，但这很糟糕，一切都是悲惨和黑暗的。”然后你不会注意到，哦，这个东西不起作用，但它并没有以一种有趣的方式起作用。

And you're more receptive to that kind of surprising thing, I think, when you're in an optimistic frame of mind.

我认为，当你处于乐观的心态时，你会更容易接受这种令人惊讶的事情。

Like, "Oh, let's see how far I can get with this.

就像，“哦，让我们看看我能做到什么程度。

Oh, it's not working, but why isn't it working?

哦，它不起作用，但为什么它不起作用呢？

Well, that's kind of interesting.

嗯，这很有趣。

It broke here."

这里断了。”

Sam Schillace: And we've done stuff like that in some of the things, the projects I've got going in Microsoft right now, we've got a chatbot thing we've been working on for a while and with memory, long-running memory so that you can have long conversations with it.

Sam Schillace：我们已经在一些事情上做了类似的事情，我现在在微软正在进行的项目，我们已经开发了一个聊天机器人，并且有记忆，长期运行的记忆，这样你就可以与它进行长时间的对话。

And they work okay, but they don't work great in some ways.

它们工作得很好，但在某些方面效果不佳。

And we were trying to get multiple versions of them working together, like multi-agents working together.

我们试图让它们的多个版本一起工作，就像多个代理一起工作一样。

And we gave them whiteboard working memory as a shared working memory thing to fix this problem.

我们为他们提供了白板工作记忆作为共享工作记忆来解决这个问题。

And that turns out to make them much smarter.

事实证明，这让他们变得更加聪明。

Don't know why.

不知道为什么。

It just makes them smarter.

它只会让他们变得更聪明。

So that was one of these nice little bits of discovery where if you're in a pessimistic frame of mind, you might've said, "Well, these don't work that well, let's give up on it." More optimistic frame of mind was like, "Well, let's try to give them a whiteboard just like a person and see if they cooperate better." And it turns out they really do.

所以这是这些美好的小发现之一，如果你处于悲观的心态，你可能会说，“好吧，这些效果不太好，让我们放弃吧。”更乐观的心态是，“好吧，让我们尝试给他们一个像人一样的白板，看看他们是否能更好地合作。”事实证明他们确实这么做了。

So another example of that mindset.

这是这种心态的另一个例子。

Lenny: Along this thread, I was going to ask about this earlier, but there's a lot of technologies people get optimistic about.

Lenny：沿着这条线索，我本来想早些时候问这个问题，但人们对很多技术持乐观态度。

Crypto comes to mind, not that there's nothing there, but a lot of people got really optimistic and then it turned out there wasn't really a lot of business to be built and then things entered wintertime.

我想到了加密货币，并不是说那里什么都没有，而是很多人变得非常乐观，然后事实证明并没有太多的业务可以建立，然后事情就进入了冬天。

Is there anything you've learned that gives you a signal that, "Lets keep working, I'm going to stay optimistic about this thing?"

你学到的任何东西是否给你一个信号：“让我们继续工作，我会对这件事保持乐观？”

Sam Schillace: I spent a lot of time really thinking hard about crypto and whether I was just reacting to it because it threatens some part of my identity or whatever.

Sam Schillace：我花了很多时间认真思考加密货币，以及我是否只是对它做出反应，因为它威胁到了我身份的某些部分或其他什么。

And I never came down to anything that seemed valuable.

我从来没有认真对待过任何看起来有价值的事情。

I mean, that was always the thing for me is just there has to be a what if that I can say, "Well what if this works?

我的意思是，这对我来说始终是一件事情，只是必须有一个如果我可以说：“如果这有效怎么办？

How valuable is it?" And for crypto I was always like, "Well what if it works?

有多值钱？”对于加密货币，我总是想，“如果它有效怎么办？

Then I have to run up sec on my personal finances.

然后我必须关注我的个人财务状况。

That sounds dystopian.

这听起来很反乌托邦。

I don't want that." I can't think of anything as a user that I think actually is valuable here, even in the best case.

我不想要这样。”即使在最好的情况下，我也想不出任何我认为在这里实际上有价值的用户。

So I feel like the pessimism is justified.

所以我觉得悲观是有道理的。

Sam Schillace: So that's one of my other root principles is just like it's all about user value.

Sam Schillace：这是我的其他根本原则之一，就像一切都与用户价值有关一样。

Users are lazy, right?

用户都是懒惰的，对吧？

We're all lazy.

我们都很懒。

We don't really care that much at the end of the day.

归根结底，我们并不那么关心。

No one's going to do something really in their life for any other reason other than it makes their life better.

没有人会因为任何其他原因而真正在生活中做某事，除非这能让他们的生活变得更好。

Nobody cares that you're friendly or nice or the logo is pretty or whatever.

没有人关心你是否友好或友善或徽标是否漂亮或其他什么。

They care about making their life easier.

他们关心让自己的生活更轻松。

We're all cynical at heart at some level, so if you can't point at user value, significant user value, it's not going to work.

我们内心在某种程度上都是愤世嫉俗的，所以如果你不能指出用户价值，重要的用户价值，那就行不通。

It doesn't matter.

没关系。

Shove all the marketing dollars into it you want, you can write all the articles you want, but it's got to actually solve a problem, a real problem, at the end of the day.

将所有营销资金投入到你想要的内容中，你可以写出所有你想要的文章，但最终它必须真正解决一个问题，一个真正的问题。

I just never saw that with crypto.

我只是从未在加密货币中看到过这一点。

Lenny: Yeah.

莱尼：是的。

So I think the lesson there is truly understand if the value is real, versus, this sounds really cool, you think a lot of...

所以我认为这里的教训是真正理解价值是否真实，相反，这听起来很酷，你想了很多......

Would you want it?

你想要吗？

I think is a nice exercise there.

我认为这是一个很好的练习。

Sam Schillace: We pick on poor Elon, but I feel like with a lot of his products, at least he...

Sam Schillace：我们选择了可怜的埃隆，但我觉得他的很多产品，至少他......

He's got lots of other issues, but he articulates clear user value even in the beginning when he's hyping things up.

他还有很多其他问题，但即使在一开始他大肆宣传的时候，他也清楚地表达了用户价值。

Like Teslas, right?

就像特斯拉一样，对吧？

Okay, so electric cars weren't ready, he did the Roadsters, whatever.

好吧，所以电动汽车还没有准备好，他做了敞篷跑车，无论如何。

But he at least articulated this idea that we're going to put a lot of batteries in these things.

但他至少阐明了这样的想法：我们将在这些东西中放入大量电池。

They're going to really be real cars.

它们将成为真正的汽车。

They're going to have a real range.

他们将有一个真正的范围。

We're going to figure out the charging problems.

我们要解决充电问题。

As an end user I'm like, "Okay, that's great.

作为最终用户，我会说：“好吧，那太好了。

Now I have a car that works like a car that solves some problems that's way cheaper to operate, because the fuel is cheaper.

现在我拥有一辆像汽车一样工作的汽车，可以解决一些问题，而且操作起来更便宜，因为燃料更便宜。

He's solving all the end user problems for me." That at least makes sense.

他正在为我解决所有最终用户的问题。”这至少是有道理的。

Even if you don't believe that he's going to do it or believe in the way he did it, at least the end user value proposition makes sense, right?

即使您不相信他会这样做或不相信他这样做的方式，至少最终用户的价值主张是有意义的，对吗？

Lenny: You have this other great quote in your newsletter, "People are lazy.

莱尼：您的时事通讯中还有另一句精彩的名言：“人们都是懒惰的。

Look beyond cool too, on how much easier new tool or tech makes someone's life.

除了酷以外，还应该关注新工具或技术如何让人们的生活变得更加轻松。

Convenience always wins." Can you talk about that, just this realization people are just lazy and that's the key?

方便总是会获胜。”你能谈谈这一点吗？意识到人们只是懒惰，而这才是关键？

Sam Schillace: Yeah, well I mean that is the thing.

Sam Schillace：是的，我的意思是就是这样。

I think as product builders, it's hard to not love what you're doing.

我认为作为产品开发者，很难不喜欢自己所做的事情。

You build a product because you love it, you build it because you understand some problem, you build it because you want a paycheck maybe sometimes.

你构建一个产品是因为你喜欢它，你构建它是因为你了解一些问题，你构建它是因为你有时可能想要一份薪水。

But we build it for all these reasons that just do not matter to the end user at all.

但我们构建它的所有这些原因对最终用户来说根本不重要。

And if there's one thing I've learned about product, particularly in the consumer space, just kind of in general, is people are just lazy about stuff and don't care about anything other than it making their life better.

如果说我对产品，尤其是在消费领域的产品了解了一件事，那么一般来说，就是人们对东西很懒，除了让他们的生活变得更好之外，不关心其他任何事情。

The thing that's complicated with that is there's two things about it that I think are interesting that follow from that principle.

复杂的事情是，根据这个原则，我认为有两件事很有趣。

One is, I think products almost follow these thermodynamic rules where if you add a little bit of value, your adoption goes slowly and if you add a lot of value, your adoption goes really quickly, right?

一是，我认为产品几乎遵循这些热力学规则，如果你增加一点点价值，你的采用就会缓慢，如果你增加很多价值，你的采用就会很快，对吗？

Sam Schillace: I think ChatGPT is a great recent example of something that was just added a ton of new value to the world and got this explosive growth, and then you see lots of other AI stuff that people are doing that's just not bad, but not great, and it's sort of kind of adding a little bit of value and slowly lumbering along, or maybe it's going to collapse under its weight.

Sam Schillace：我认为 ChatGPT 是最近的一个很好的例子，它刚刚为世界增加了大量的新价值，并获得了爆炸性的增长，然后你会看到人们正在做的许多其他人工智能东西，它们只是还不错，但也不是很好，它有点增加了一点价值，但慢慢地步履蹒跚，或者可能会在它的重压下崩溃。

That's one thing about the users are lazy part of this.

这是用户偷懒的原因之一。

And then the other one I think is, again, it's almost like physics.

我认为另一个问题是，它几乎就像物理学一样。

I think of this as entropy, or people who are confused about entropy or will be like, "Entropy is not real.

我认为这就是熵，或者对熵感到困惑的人，或者会说，“熵不是真实的。

Look, it runs backwards all the time on earth.

看，地球上一直在倒退。

Life gets more complicated.

生活变得更加复杂。

What is the deal with entropy?" And like, "Well no, you have to consider the whole system, right?

熵有什么关系？”就像，“好吧，不，你必须考虑整个系统，对吧？

The entire system of the solar system, including the sun is increasing in entropy all the time.

太阳系的整个系统，包括太阳，其熵一直在增加。

We're just making use of some of it."

我们只是利用其中的一部分。”

Sam Schillace: And I think the same thing is kind of true about user laziness, where people are like, "This tiny thing that I'm focusing on, this feature that I added is better.

Sam Schillace：我认为用户的懒惰也是如此，人们会说，“我关注的这个小事情，我添加的这个功能更好。

Therefore, users should adopt it." But you forget all the stuff around it.

因此，用户应该采用它。”但你忘记了它周围的所有东西。

The user has to hear about it, the user has to remember it in the moment.

用户必须听到它，用户必须立即记住它。

The user has to learn how to use it, they have to build the habit.

用户必须学习如何使用它，他们必须养成习惯。

That's all effort, right?

这就是所有的努力吧？

Not to mention the fact that the actual use of your feature might have friction on the way in, right?

更不用说您的功能的实际使用可能会遇到阻力，对吗？

It might be hard to sign up for it.

可能很难注册。

Sam Schillace: When we did Writely at the beginning, we didn't even ask for an email address, because it was such a novel thing.

Sam Schillace：当我们一开始做 Writely 时，我们甚至没有要求提供电子邮件地址，因为这是一件很新奇的事情。

We didn't want any friction at all in the onboarding process.

我们不希望在入职过程中出现任何摩擦。

So you could just come in and make a document and start using it without telling us anything at all about yourself.

因此，您可以进来制作一份文档并开始使用它，而无需告诉我们任何有关您自己的信息。

And after about two minutes of typing, if you're still there, we'd very gently just say, "Please give us your email address, no password, no anything.

大约两分钟的打字后，如果您还在那里，我们会非常温和地说：“请给我们您的电子邮件地址，不要密码，什么都不要。

Just give us your email address so we can send you a URL of this document in case you care about it later.

只需向我们提供您的电子邮件地址，以便我们向您发送此文档的 URL，以便您稍后关注。

Because if you leave, we'll never know where...

因为如果你离开，我们将永远不知道去哪里......

We'll never be able to find it again."

我们再也找不到它了。”

Sam Schillace: But we were super focused on that, as little friction as possible.

Sam Schillace：但我们非常关注这一点，尽可能减少摩擦。

And I think it's well known in the consumer space, you don't have...

我认为这在消费者领域是众所周知的，你没有......

The number of seconds you have is not many.

你所拥有的秒数并不多。

15 seconds, 30 seconds, right, to convince somebody that there's some value there.

15 秒、30 秒，对吧，让别人相信那里有一些价值。

They're not going to hang out and grind their way through a bunch of high-friction stuff to sign up for your thing.

他们不会为了注册你的东西而在一堆高摩擦的东西中苦苦挣扎。

That's the other part of it is just, users will only adopt what you're doing if that sum total of energy that they have to expend is less than the resulting ease in their life that they get, usually by a factor of at least a couple, right?

这就是它的另一部分，只有当用户必须消耗的能量总和少于他们在生活中获得的轻松感时，用户才会采用你正在做的事情，通常至少是几个因素，对吧？

So it has to make your life a lot better, hopefully a really a lot better, like 10X better than what you spend to use it.

所以它必须让你的生活变得更好，希望真的好很多，比如比你花的钱好 10 倍。

Lenny: What I think of as you're describing this is, Microsoft Excel had a billion toolbars and buttons and options, which allowed Google Docs essentially to come in with a much simpler experience.

Lenny：正如您所描述的那样，我认为 Microsoft Excel 拥有十亿个工具栏、按钮和选项，这使得 Google Docs 本质上能够提供更简单的体验。

Now you're on the other side of that, which is I didn't think about.

现在你站在了另一边，这是我没有想到的。

Sam Schillace: Yeah, it's a really funny place to be.

Sam Schillace：是的，这是一个非常有趣的地方。

And it's funny to be at Microsoft, because I'm kind of the enemy, right?

在微软工作很有趣，因为我是敌人，对吧？

Because I'm the guy who messed them up a little bit.

因为我就是那个把他们搞得一团糟的人。

So there's some friction around that.

所以这方面存在一些摩擦。

Yeah, I mean I think there are similar trade-offs to be made right now, by the way, with AI.

是的，顺便说一下，我认为人工智能现在也需要做出类似的权衡。

I think there's similar opportunities.

我认为也有类似的机会。

But we made this choice with...

但我们做出这个选择...

So it's a little hard to remember, right?

所以有点难记住，对吧？

Because it's like 18 years, 17 years ago now, 18 years ago almost.

因为现在已经是18年前了，17年前了，差不多是18年前了。

In that era, Office was impregnable, right?

在那个时代，Office是坚不可摧的吧？

So software had to be distributed physically, right, it had to be shipped around, it had to be bought and installed.

所以软件必须以物理方式分发，对，它必须被运送，它必须被购买和安装。

It was harder to use.

使用起来比较困难。

Sam Schillace: And so there's a very high transactional cost.

Sam Schillace：因此交易成本非常高。

Because there's a very high transactional cost, the buyers would always make this decision like, "Do I want the thing with 1,000 features or the thing with 995 features?

因为交易成本非常高，买家总是会做出这样的决定：“我想要具有 1,000 个功能的东西还是具有 995 个功能的东西？

I don't know what those last five are, but I might as well have all of them." And so that was just the lock-in for Microsoft, right?

我不知道最后五个是什么，但我也可能拥有全部。”所以这只是微软的锁定，对吧？

So we made this trade-off, we're like, "Look, we're easy to use, we're zero install, you don't have to ever deal with it, it's super convenient.

所以我们做了这样的权衡，我们就像，“看，我们很容易使用，我们是零安装，你不必处理它，它非常方便。

Plus you get this one new feature that's really, really useful, which is collaborating with each other and not having to send attachments around the old file servers, but we're going to take away most of the features, because we don't care about them that much."

另外，你还获得了一项非常非常有用的新功能，它可以相互协作，而不必在旧文件服务器上发送附件，但我们将取消大部分功能，因为我们不太关心它们。”

Sam Schillace: And we took away a little bit more than we should have.

Sam Schillace：我们拿走了比我们应该拿走的多一点的东西。

In the early days, we'd get all these complaints about people who wanted word count, which I thought was a really weird...

在早期，我们会收到所有关于想要字数统计的人的抱怨，我认为这真的很奇怪......

I thought that was going to be way at the end of the list.

我认为这将是在列表的最后。

We didn't have rulers, we didn't have any kind of formatting at that point, any real pagination.

我们没有标尺，当时没有任何格式，任何真正的分页。

We just had these basic documents.

我们只有这些基本文件。

But page word count came in, of course it was students, was one of our early adopters.

但是页面字数进来了，当然是学生，是我们的早期采用者之一。

So they really wanted to know if they were at the word count for the essay that they had just had assigned to them.

所以他们真的想知道他们是否达到了刚刚分配给他们的论文的字数。

Sam Schillace: So there was this dance with Microsoft that we deliberately made this trade-off.

Sam Schillace：因此，我们故意与微软进行了这种权衡。

And I think it's almost like a classic innovator's dilemma model, right?

我认为这几乎就像一个经典的创新者困境模型，对吧？

We had this incumbent that was asymptotically approaching usefulness, they're adding stuff.

我们的现任者正在逐渐接近实用性，他们正在添加东西。

Whenever they added stuff, it wasn't really that much more valuable.

每当他们添加东西时，它实际上并没有那么有价值。

And then we were this small thing that came in into a market that they didn't care that much about, that they didn't understand that well, which is the internet stuff, this disruptive new thing.

然后我们是一个小东西，进入了一个他们不太关心、不太了解的市场，这就是互联网的东西，这种颠覆性的新事物。

We just chipped away from the bottom, like the innovator's dilemma.

我们只是从底部逐渐脱离，就像创新者的困境一样。

And I think it was hard for Microsoft to respond to it.

我认为微软很难对此做出回应。

I think it took them a while to even have a clear idea of how they were going to respond to it.

我认为他们花了一段时间才清楚地知道他们将如何应对。

In retrospect, they did fine.

回想起来，他们做得很好。

We took a bunch of market share, but they kept all the money basically.

我们拿走了很多市场份额，但他们基本上保留了所有的钱。

So we being Google.

所以我们是谷歌。

So they survived it.

所以他们活了下来。

They did a good job surviving the challenge.

他们在挑战中表现出色。

We have all the users now, but they have all the money.

我们现在拥有所有的用户，但他们拥有所有的钱。

We have all the money, I guess now.

我想现在我们已经有所有的钱了。

Lenny: I want to spend more time on Google Docs and the story there.

莱尼：我想花更多的时间在谷歌文档和那里的故事上。

A couple questions.

有几个问题。

How long did it take from starting on it to feeling like it's working?

从开始使用到感觉有效需要多长时间？

Whatever you consider product market fit.

无论您认为产品是否适合市场。

Sam Schillace: Almost immediately, honestly.

Sam Schillace：老实说，几乎是立刻。

It was weird, the process of it was, I had this idea, we set this thing up, we started working together.

这很奇怪，它的过程是，我有了这个想法，我们建立了这个东西，我们开始一起工作。

We're like, "Ah, that's actually pretty..." So basically history is like I noticed contents editable, so the browser would do some editing for you.

我们就像，“啊，这实际上很漂亮......”所以基本上历史就像我注意到内容是可编辑的，所以浏览器会为你做一些编辑。

And then I noticed JavaScript, I never realized that JavaScript is out there.

然后我注意到了 JavaScript，我从来没有意识到 JavaScript 就在那里。

And we had done word processors in the past, this team, and for a long time.

我们这个团队过去很长一段时间都做过文字处理程序。

In fact, my co-founder, Steve, the other person on that document, wrote this thing called Full Write way back in 1987 or something like that, that was a direct competitor.

事实上，我的联合创始人 Steve，即该文档中的另一个人，早在 1987 年就写了这个名为 Full Write 的东西或类似的东西，这是一个直接竞争对手。

'85 I think even, that was a direct competitor to Word one.

'85 我什至认为，那是 Word one 的直接竞争对手。

Sam Schillace: So we knew word processors, and so we decided to just try it.

Sam Schillace：我们知道文字处理器，所以我们决定尝试一下。

What's it like to build a word processor?

构建文字处理器是什么感觉？

And the fact that you could collaborate on them was kind of an accident.

你们能够合作开发它们这一事实有点意外。

They're just these things on the server.

它们只是服务器上的这些东西。

We hadn't built the thing that would lock somebody out yet.

我们还没有建造出可以将某人拒之门外的东西。

So there was just like, "Here's a document, you can edit these two things." Which we, A, immediately realized was really cool.

所以就像是，“这是一个文档，你可以编辑这两件事。”我们，A，立即意识到这真的很酷。

We could both work in the same document at the same time.

我们可以同时处理同一份文档。

And then, B, realized, "Oh, crap, we're colliding with each other, because there's no presence or anything like that.

然后，B 意识到，“哦，糟糕，我们正在互相碰撞，因为没有存在或类似的东西。

And there's no collision detection or anything like that."

而且没有碰撞检测或类似的东西。”

Sam Schillace: So pretty quickly we're like, "Oh, that's kind of cool.

Sam Schillace：很快我们就想，“哦，这有点酷。

That feels good as a development team to have these shared documents, not to send stuff around and not...

作为一个开发团队，拥有这些共享文档，而不是到处发送东西，而不是……感觉很好。

So that's cool.

所以这很酷。

So let's build that out." But like, "Oh, bummer, collaboration's a problem.

所以让我们来构建它。”但就像，“哦，真糟糕，合作是个问题。

We'll have to go fix that." And naively figured out that that's a problem.

我们必须去解决这个问题。”并天真地发现这是一个问题。

And it took forever to get that working.

花了很长时间才让它发挥作用。

It was really, really hard in the time, because we didn't do operational transform.

当时真的非常非常困难，因为我们没有进行运营转型。

I don't think that technique had been quite invented yet.

我认为这项技术还没有完全发明出来。

And so we did three-way merge, which doesn't work that well, because the browsers...

所以我们做了三向合并，但效果不太好，因为浏览器......

The logical document, a document can be rendered differently in HTML.

逻辑文档，文档可以在 HTML 中以不同的方式呈现。

There's not a canonical representation.

没有规范的表示。

Sam Schillace: And so you're doing merges where alphabetization can change, the order of attributes can change, the tree structure can change.

Sam Schillace：因此，您正在进行合并，其中字母顺序可以更改，属性顺序可以更改，树结构可以更改。

Firefox would do a blank paragraph with a singleton BR tag, and IE would do it with an open closed paragraph tag.

Firefox 将使用单个 BR 标记来创建空白段落，而 IE 将使用开放封闭段落标记来创建空白段落。

And so even the tree doesn't match.

所以即使是树也不匹配。

So it's a really hard merge problem.

所以这是一个非常困难的合并问题。

So that turned out to be a gnarly hard problem to solve.

结果证明这是一个很难解决的棘手问题。

But once we had seen the value of working together, we were motivated to do that.

但一旦我们看到了合作的价值，我们就有动力这样做。

Sam Schillace: The interesting thing too with that is, I think if we'd gotten it in the other order, we might not have done it.

Sam Schillace：有趣的是，我认为如果我们以其他顺序得到它，我们可能不会这样做。

It's another good example of why not and what if, right?

这是另一个很好的例子，说明为什么不这样做，如果怎样，对吗？

Where we got really lucky that we saw the what if part, that we saw how cool a document in a browser that you could collaborate on would be, because if we understood how hard the collaboration piece would've been first without understanding that value, we might've been like, "Eh, it's not worth it.

我们非常幸运，我们看到了假设部分，我们看到了浏览器中可以协作处理的文档是多么酷，因为如果我们首先了解协作部分在不了解其价值的情况下会有多困难，我们可能会说，“呃，这不值得。

It's going to be so hard to solve that problem.

解决这个问题将会非常困难。

It's probably not a useful app." So I think it's a good little counter example of that optimistic, pessimistic perspective we were talking about.

这可能不是一个有用的应用程序。”所以我认为这是我们所讨论的乐观和悲观观点的一个很好的反例。

We could easily have missed that idea, easily have missed that idea.

我们很容易错过这个想法，很容易错过那个想法。

And we just got lucky I think in the order it got presented to us.

我认为按照它呈现给我们的顺序，我们很幸运。

Lenny: That is really interesting actually, that you need to be pulled to the what if getting you so excited that you're going to spend however many years it took you to solve that problem, because you are so excited about this what if.

莱尼：实际上这真的很有趣，你需要被吸引到“假设”让你如此兴奋，以至于你会花很多年的时间来解决这个问题，因为你对“假设”感到非常兴奋。

I think that's a really good-

我认为这真的很好——

Sam Schillace: Yeah, yeah, I mean I've spent a lot of time.

Sam Schillace：是的，是的，我是说我花了很多时间。

It's kind of funny, I keep expecting people to just be like, "All right, grandpa, stop talking about G Docs.

这有点有趣，我一直期待人们会这样说：“好吧，爷爷，别再谈论 G Docs 了。

It's been a long time." Right?

已经很久了。”正确的？

So it has been a long time.

所以已经过去很长时间了。

It's been 17 years, but it's still very relevant.

17年过去了，但它仍然具有现实意义。

It's got a couple billion users now I think, it's a big thing.

我认为它现在有几十亿用户，这是一件大事。

But I've spent a lot of the last 10 or 15 years just thinking about, why did that work?

但过去 10 或 15 年里我花了很多时间思考，为什么这样做有效？

What worked about that?

那有什么作用呢？

What lessons can I draw from it?

我可以从中吸取什么教训？

There was a lot of energy around it, positive and negative.

它周围有很多能量，有积极的，也有消极的。

The first week I was at Google, an executive there refused to give me hardware, because he thought that Google was an app company not a...

我在谷歌的第一周，那里的一位高管拒绝给我硬件，因为他认为谷歌是一家应用程序公司，而不是......

It was a search company, not an app company.

这是一家搜索公司，而不是一家应用程序公司。

And literally the guy in charge of hardware at the time refused to give me hardware for this service.

事实上，当时负责硬件的人拒绝为我提供这项服务的硬件。

And I had to threaten to either sue him or haul him in front of Eric Schmidt, because I had a contract and I had contracted earnouts.

我不得不威胁要起诉他，或者把他拉到埃里克·施密特面前，因为我有合同，而且我也签了合同。

Sam Schillace: So that was another one of these interesting lessons of sometimes the opposition is enormous.

萨姆·席勒斯：这是另一个有趣的教训，有时反对派是巨大的。

And if I had just been a random Google employee with this idea and no legal protection, and the CEO wasn't a fan of the project, it would've died.

如果我只是一个随机的谷歌员工，有这个想法并且没有法律保护，并且首席执行官不喜欢这个项目，那么它就会死掉。

There's no way it would've made it through that negativity and that pessimism and that person being either challenged or afraid of the idea, or just not able to imagine it, or what.

它不可能克服那种消极和悲观情绪，并且那个人要么受到挑战，要么害怕这个想法，或者只是无法想象它，或者什么。

I'm not sure what.

我不确定是什么。

But we'll keep coming back to this idea of optimism, but I have this very strong feeling about that most of the reason people don't do really innovative good products is this kind of mindset.

但我们会继续回到这种乐观的想法，但我有一种非常强烈的感觉，人们不做真正创新的好产品的大部分原因就是这种心态。

You're just not seeing the opportunities.

你只是没有看到机会。

Sam Schillace: There's a lot of hard work for sure.

Sam Schillace：肯定有很多艰苦的工作。

There's a lot of stuff that you can read about and best practices of doing iteration and user testing and user interviews and really listening and all the engineering best practices.

您可以阅读很多内容以及进行迭代、用户测试、用户访谈、真正倾听的最佳实践以及所有工程最佳实践。

That stuff is pretty mechanical.

那东西非常机械。

Once you know where you're going, you can do that.

一旦你知道你要去哪里，你就可以做到。

It's not that hard to learn and to master it.

学习和掌握它并不难。

I think the hard stuff is this mindset of being open in the right ways and understanding that some kinds of pushback are good pushback.

我认为困难的是这种以正确的方式开放的心态，并理解某些类型的阻力是好的阻力。

Some are bad.

有些是不好的。

Sam Schillace: I always think that product builders and entrepreneurs, you have this really hard problem of you have to be very rigid about your mission.

Sam Schillace：我一直认为产品制造商和企业家面临着一个非常棘手的问题，那就是必须对自己的使命非常严格。

I know where I'm going.

我知道我要去哪里。

I know what my mission is, and I'm going to go there because the world doesn't care, it's going to push back.

我知道我的使命是什么，我要去那里，因为世界不在乎，它会反击。

But you also have to be really flexible about feedback.

但你也必须对反馈非常灵活。

You're probably aren't going to be right about a bunch of it.

你可能对其中的很多事情都不会是正确的。

And so you have to blend these two things together somehow.

所以你必须以某种方式将这两件事融合在一起。

It's like a samurai sword that's hard on the back, but softer on the edge so it doesn't break.

它就像一把武士刀，背面坚硬，但边缘较软，因此不会折断。

Or the other way around I think.

或者我认为相反。

But there's this hard thing you have to do as an entrepreneur, and I think it's the real core of building really great products is finding that balance and really listening to those signals, being open to it.

但作为一名企业家，你必须做一件困难的事情，我认为打造真正伟大产品的真正核心是找到平衡并真正倾听这些信号，对此持开放态度。

Lenny: And also knowing how long to commit to it versus time to move on to something else.

莱尼：同时也知道要花多长时间去做这件事，以及花多长时间去做其他事情。

So along those lines, what was the moment where you finally felt product market fit for what became Google Docs, and how long was that from the beginning of starting to work on it?

那么，沿着这些思路，您最终觉得产品市场适合 Google Docs 的产品是什么时候？距离开始开发它花了多长时间？

Sam Schillace: It depends on what market we're talking about.

Sam Schillace：这取决于我们谈论的市场。

I've been continually surprised at the adoption of G Docs.

我一直对 G Docs 的采用感到惊讶。

I think we knew there was something there pretty quickly, probably in the first couple months.

我想我们很快就知道那里有东西，可能在最初的几个月里。

There was a lot of energy around it.

周围有大量的能量。

It was a weird ride, because we built this thing on a whim, and as an experiment.

这是一次奇怪的旅程，因为我们一时兴起建造了这个东西，并且作为一个实验。

We liked it.

我们喜欢它。

We decided to go just advertise on Google.

我们决定只在 Google 上做广告。

At the time, 37signals was the cool company.

当时，37signals 是一家很酷的公司。

And we're like, "That looks cool.

我们就像，“这看起来很酷。

We'll just be some engineers and we'll have a little subscription SaaS business thing and chill out.

我们只是一些工程师，我们会做一些订阅 SaaS 业务，然后放松一下。

So let's see what it costs to acquire customers.

那么让我们看看获取客户的成本是多少。

So let's go advertise on Google and see how much it costs to get people to sort of show up, and then we'll figure out if we have a subscription business or not."

因此，让我们在谷歌上做广告，看看吸引人们出现的成本是多少，然后我们就会弄清楚我们是否有订阅业务。”

Sam Schillace: And that just got us noticed.

Sam Schillace：这引起了我们的注意。

That got us noticed by Google.

这让我们引起了谷歌的注意。

It got us noticed.

它引起了我们的注意。

We were I think one of the first 10 articles at TechCrunch, like Michael Arrington.

我认为我们是 TechCrunch 的前 10 篇文章之一，就像 Michael Arrington 一样。

Another funny story is that I had a breakfast with Michael Arrington at Bucks, in that era where he was trying to decide, he had this spreadsheet idea he wanted to work on and he was trying to decide he should go do that and maybe join forces with us, because we were cool, or if he should continue to work on this blog thing he had gone called TechCrunch.

另一个有趣的故事是，我和迈克尔·阿灵顿在雄鹿队共进早餐，在那个时代，他试图做出决定，他有一个他想要研究的电子表格想法，他试图决定他应该这样做，也许与我们联手，因为我们很酷，或者他是否应该继续在他称之为 TechCrunch 的博客上工作。

So I might be partially responsible for TechCrunch, because we turned him down and said, "You should go do TechCrunch instead." Every time I would bump into him, I would laugh about that one.

所以我可能对 TechCrunch 负有部分责任，因为我们拒绝了他并说：“你应该去做 TechCrunch。”每次我碰到他，我都会笑起来。

Sam Schillace: But when we got noticed, we really got noticed.

Sam Schillace：但是当我们受到关注时，我们确实受到了关注。

There was just this period where we were the hot thing for a couple months, where every VC wanted to talk to us and everyone's trying to figure it out.

就在这段时间里，我们有几个月很火，每个风投都想和我们谈谈，每个人都在想办法解决这个问题。

Because I think we're like...

因为我觉得我们就像...

When you see one point on the line, like Gmail, which came before us, you're like, "Oh, that's kind of cool.

当你看到线上的一个点时，比如在我们之前出现的 Gmail，你会想，“哦，这有点酷。

That's an interesting quasi-app." But it's like a weird kind of app.

这是一个有趣的准应用程序。”但这就像一种奇怪的应用程序。

It's serialized.

已经连载了。

You can't really interact with it that much.

你无法真正与它互动那么多。

And then you see this as another point on the curve and you're like, "Oh, that's a real app.

然后您将其视为曲线上的另一个点，您会想：“哦，那是一个真正的应用程序。

Oh, crap.

哦，糟糕。

I wonder, is there anything stopping us from doing the rest of Office?

我想知道，是否有什么因素阻止我们完成 Office 的其余部分？

Oh, probably not.

哦，可能不是。

How far is this going to go?"

这要走多远？”

Sam Schillace: And so I think we were that second point that showed that there was actually this totally different paradigm.

Sam Schillace：所以我认为我们是第二点，表明实际上存在这种完全不同的范式。

And so we just got this enormous amount of tension pretty quickly.

所以我们很快就陷入了巨大的紧张之中。

And then the rest of it was feeling our way through what does it actually mean?

然后剩下的部分就是让我们摸索它到底意味着什么？

How much of the functionality do we need to build?

我们需要构建多少功能？

What's the really important part about it?

它真正重要的部分是什么？

How much of its collaboration?

其合作程度如何？

We spent a bunch of energy on offline, which was miserable, which never turned out to matter that much.

我们在线下花费了很多精力，这很痛苦，但事实证明这并没有那么重要。

Sam Schillace: Now that team has spent a long time replicating all these features that we abandoned by the wayside, which I think I'm not that interested in.

Sam Schillace：现在团队已经花了很长时间来复制我们半途而废的所有这些功能，我想我对此并不感兴趣。

I think the future of documents looks very different than what we have now.

我认为文档的未来看起来与我们现在的情况非常不同。

I think it's kind of funny now that we're spending billions of dollars on GPUs to emulate wind pulp and ink pressed by metal type.

我认为现在我们花费数十亿美元在 GPU 上来模拟风浆和金属活字压制的油墨，这有点有趣。

We're building linear documents that are fixed, that are static.

我们正在构建固定的、静态的线性文档。

So one of the things we've been doing with these chatbot things is they also serve as documents.

因此，我们对这些聊天机器人所做的事情之一就是它们也可以用作文档。

I say bots or docs all the time.

我一直说机器人或文档。

And so you'll do these things where you...

所以你会做这些事情，你...

I do this all the time, where we'll interview...

我一直这样做，我们会在那里采访......

We'll create a new one.

我们将创建一个新的。

It has a separate identity, as a separate document, and then you tell it like, "I'm going to write a technical document.

它有一个单独的身份，作为一个单独的文档，然后你可以这样告诉它：“我要写一份技术文档。

Here's roughly what it's about.

大致内容如下。

Why don't you interview me?"

为什么不采访我？”

Sam Schillace: So it interviews you for an hour, and now you've got this nice linear artifact which you can read.

Sam Schillace：所以它采访了你一个小时，现在你已经得到了这个可以阅读的漂亮的线性工件。

It's very readable because it's conversational.

它非常易读，因为它是对话式的。

But at the same time, you've been building all these semantically encoded virtual synthetic memories in the Spectre database.

但与此同时，您一直在 Spectre 数据库中构建所有这些语义编码的虚拟合成记忆。

So you can come in and say, "Show me a diagram of this.

所以你可以进来说：“给我一张图表。

Draw this diagram for me, change it in the following way.

给我画一下这个图，按照下面的方式改变它。

What is this?

这是什么？

If I change this, what if I change that?

如果我改变这个，如果我改变那个呢？

Summarize this part of it." So you can start to interact with it.

总结一下这一部分。”这样你就可以开始与它互动了。

That's still creating stuff at the bottom of this linear artifact.

这仍然在这个线性工件的底部创建东西。

But the next step that we're working on now is just making that dynamic where you just come to something and you talk to it and interact with it.

但我们现在正在努力的下一步就是创造一种动态，你只要走到某处，就可以与它交谈并与之互动。

Sam Schillace: I think one of the things that's going to happen is, just like it seems...

Sam Schillace：我认为将会发生的事情之一是，就像看起来一样......

Well, in the early days of G Docs, people would say, "Well, what if I'm not connected?" And one of the things I would say is, "In three or five years, if you get handed a device that's not connected to the internet, your word for it is going to be broken." Which is true, right?

好吧，在 G Docs 的早期，人们会说，“好吧，如果我没有连接怎么办？”我要说的一件事是，“三五年后，如果你拿到一个没有连接到互联网的设备，你对它的承诺就会被打破。”这是真的，对吧？

It's anachronistic and weird if something's not connected.

如果某些东西没有联系，那就是不合时宜且奇怪的。

I think we're going to feel the same way about intention and interactivity in our products very soon.

我认为我们很快就会对我们产品的意图和交互性有同样的感觉。

If I can't tell something what my intent is and have it configure itself in an intelligent way, have it converse with me, whether that's a device or a piece of GUI UX somewhere, I think it's going to feel anachronistic.

如果我不能告诉某些东西我的意图是什么，并让它以智能的方式配置自己，让它与我交谈，无论它是一个设备还是某个 GUI UX 的一部分，我认为它会感觉不合时宜。

It's going to feel really weird.

感觉真的很奇怪。

Sam Schillace: There's that scene in one of the early Star Trek movies where Scotty tries to talk to the mouse, right?

山姆·席勒斯：在早期的《星际迷航》电影中，有一个场景，斯科蒂试图与老鼠交谈，对吧？

He's like, "Computer make the..." He's pissed off because he can't talk to the computer.

他就像是，“计算机制造了......”他很生气，因为他无法与计算机交谈。

We're all going to be like that in five years I think, about it.

我想五年后我们都会变成这样。

And it's going to seem really weird that we have these applications that I can't collaborate with the application.

我们拥有这些我无法与该应用程序协作的应用程序，这看起来真的很奇怪。

Why can't I collaborate with the applications?

为什么我无法与应用程序协作？

It's like the application's locked on a file server just like the pre G Docs days.

就像应用程序被锁定在文件服务器上一样，就像 G Docs 之前的时代一样。

Why can't I just interact with it and have it configure itself the way I want it to configure itself, and show me the data the way I want to see this, and let me build the workflow the way I want it, and remember it for me and bring it back later, and all that stuff?

为什么我不能与它交互并让它按照我想要的方式配置自身，并以我想要的方式向我显示数据，让我按照我想要的方式构建工作流程，并为我记住它并稍后将其带回来，等等？

So that was a long digression, but I would just like...

所以这是一个很长的题外话，但我只是想......

You're asking about features and functionality, and I feel like where we are now with these feature wars, it's just silly.

你问的是特性和功能，我觉得我们现在处于这些特性之战的位置，这很愚蠢。

It's not the point at all.

这根本不是重点。

I think documents are going to change radically in the next few years.

我认为文件在未来几年将会发生根本性的变化。

Lenny: I want to follow that thread.

莱尼：我想追踪这个线索。

Before I do, I found the first TechCrunch post about you guys.

在此之前，我找到了第一篇关于你们的 TechCrunch 帖子。

Starts with, "Imagine Word, but as an Ajax browser application."

开头是“想象一下 Word，但它是一个 Ajax 浏览器应用程序。”

Sam Schillace: Oh, yeah, there you go.

萨姆·席勒斯：哦，是的，就是这样。

Yeah.

是的。

It wasn't even JavaScript.

它甚至不是 JavaScript。

It was Ajax.

是阿贾克斯。

Sam Schillace: It's also funny too, because I'll talk to young front end developers these days.

Sam Schillace：这也很有趣，因为这些天我会和年轻的前端开发人员交谈。

I'm like, "I don't want to scare you too much, but jQuery didn't even exist when I wrote this thing.

我想，“我不想吓到你太多，但是当我写这个东西的时候 jQuery 还不存在。

This is like bare metal in the DOM, and there were bugs." When I went to Google, I had to write this little network stack at the bottom of the JavaScript that in theory you could interrupt, you could have multiple requests inflate and you can interrupt them and discard them and stuff.

这就像 DOM 中的裸机，并且存在错误。”当我去 Google 时，我必须在 JavaScript 的底部编写这个小网络堆栈，理论上你可以中断它，你可以有多个请求膨胀，你可以中断它们并丢弃它们之类的东西。

Sam Schillace: But the stack at the time was really buggy, and I think it was IEE.

Sam Schillace：但是当时的堆栈确实有​​很多 bug，我认为是 IEE。

And so I wrote this little network queue that would keep track of whether there were requests in flight, and kill them in a way that didn't break everything.

因此，我编写了这个小网络队列，它可以跟踪是否有正在运行的请求，并以一种不会破坏所有内容的方式杀死它们。

And it was hard to do, because it's this weird asynchronous programming.

这很难做到，因为这是一种奇怪的异步编程。

And that piece of code, when I went to Google, they made me reformat it for the JavaScript readability standards, and I could not get it to work with their formatting.

这段代码，当我去 Google 时，他们让我根据 JavaScript 可读性标准重新格式化它，但我无法让它与他们的格式兼容。

There was some bug in the JavaScript compiler of the time that whitespace mattered.

当时的 JavaScript 编译器中存在一些错误，空格很重要。

And so I wound up checking it in broken, got the readability badge and immediately fixed it.

所以我最终检查了它是否损坏，拿到了可读性徽章并立即修复了它。

It's like that was another one of our little hacks to get this working.

这就像我们为了让它发挥作用而采取的另一项小技巧。

Lenny: I love it.

莱尼：我喜欢。

This episode is brought to you by Ahrefs.

本集由 Ahrefs 为您带来。

Many of you already know Ahrefs as one of the top tools for search engine optimization.

许多人已经知道 Ahrefs 是搜索引擎优化的顶级工具之一。

It's used by thousands of SEOs and companies like IBM, Adidas, and eBay.

数以千计的 SEO 和 IBM、阿迪达斯和 eBay 等公司都在使用它。

What you may not know is that there's a free version that was made with small website owners in mind.

您可能不知道的是，有一个免费版本是专为小型网站所有者设计的。

It's called Ahrefs Webmaster Tools.

它称为 Ahrefs 网站管理员工具。

It's free and it can help you bring more traffic to your website.

它是免费的，可以帮助您为您的网站带来更多流量。

Ahrefs Webmaster Tools will show you keywords that you rank for and back links that you can get.

Ahrefs 网站管理员工具将向您显示您排名的关键字以及可以获得的反向链接。

It also performs automated site audits to find what issues prevent your website from ranking higher on Google.

它还执行自动网站审核，以找出哪些问题阻止您的网站在 Google 上排名更高。

Every detected issue comes with a detailed explanation and advice on how to fix it.

每个检测到的问题都附带详细的解释和如何修复的建议。

Visit ahrefs.com/AWT, set up a free account, connect your website and start improving it.

访问 ahrefs.com/AWT，设置免费帐户，连接您的网站并开始改进它。

That's A-H-R-E-F-S dot com/AWT.

这是 A-H-R-E-F-S dot com/AWT。

Lenny: There's often this criticism as an engineer, you just want to work on interesting things and work on the technology before you find a problem that it's solving.

Lenny：作为一名工程师，经常会有这样的批评，你只想从事有趣的事情并研究技术，然后才发现它正在解决的问题。

It feels like with this example it was, you just think this is a cool technology, let's see what happens.

感觉就像这个例子，你只是认为这是一项很酷的技术，让我们看看会发生什么。

Do you have any, I don't know, learnings or advice for when it's actually fine.

我不知道你有什么经验教训或建议吗？

Let's just play with this tech, be at the edges, you said, and maybe it'll lead somewhere, versus you should probably try to avoid that and first focus on a problem.

你说，让我们尝试一下这项技术，处于边缘，也许它会带来某个结果，而你应该尝试避免这种情况并首先关注一个问题。

Sam Schillace: I'm guilty of that.

山姆·席勒斯：我对此感到内疚。

I mean, I like to play with stuff.

我的意思是，我喜欢玩东西。

I tend to think with my fingers as much as anything else.

我倾向于用手指思考，就像其他事情一样。

So I actually think there's a good place for just play with the tech a lot and figure out what it's good for.

所以我实际上认为有一个很好的地方可以充分利用技术并找出它的好处。

What I've evolved to doing these days with my teams is I pick what I call north stars that I think are interesting, useful things to get to rather than just messing around.

这些天我和我的团队一起做的事情是，我选择我所说的北极星，我认为这些东西是有趣的、有用的，而不是只是闲逛。

What's a cool thing that I think might be buildable with this?

我认为可以用它构建什么很酷的东西？

Sam Schillace: So right now we're doing these multi-agent systems.

Sam Schillace：所以现在我们正在开发这些多代理系统。

We're trying to figure out how much independent work they can do without a person holding their hand.

我们试图弄清楚，在没有人牵着他们的手的情况下，他们可以独立完成多少工作。

And so a nice domain to test that out in is programming, because you don't have a whole lot of...

因此，一个很好的测试领域是编程，因为你没有太多的……

You just give something a Python environment and a file system and that's it and that's all it needs.

你只需给某个东西一个Python环境和一个文件系统就够了，这就是它所需要的一切。

And so you're not distracted by connectivity issues or whatever.

因此您不会因连接问题或其他问题而分心。

Sam Schillace: So one of the problems right now is go write the eye in Python.

Sam Schillace：所以现在的问题之一是用 Python 编写眼睛。

That's a problem I could give to an intern and it would take them a summer to do some halfway decent job of it.

这是我可以向实习生提出的一个问题，他们需要一个夏天才能完成一些还算不错的工作。

It's a thing you could expect a reasonably competent programmer to do, mostly independently.

这是一件你可以期望一个相当有能力的程序员来做的事情，而且大部分是独立做的。

And so it should be possible for the system, if it's independent at all, to go do that.

因此，如果系统是独立的，那么它应该有可能做到这一点。

So is that useful by itself?

那么它本身有用吗？

No, because we already have the eye, it doesn't matter.

不，因为我们已经有眼睛了，所以没关系。

But if we build a system of programming agents that can self-monitor and self-correct and bug themselves, that can build things that are roughly that scale of complexity, that's valuable.

但是，如果我们构建一个能够自我监控、自我纠正和自我错误的编程代理系统，可以构建大致复杂程度的东西，那就很有价值了。

That would be a valuable thing to have.

这将是一件很有价值的事情。

Sam Schillace: It's kind of interesting too, because that system already, it's produced a bunch of good insights.

Sam Schillace：这也很有趣，因为这个系统已经产生了很多很好的见解。

One of them is its kind of complicated and then hard to debug it.

其中之一是它有点复杂并且难以调试。

It's this asynchronous system of stochastic agents.

这就是随机代理的异步系统。

That's a lot of stuff to deal with.

有很多事情要处理。

So we wrote a debugger agent.

所以我们编写了一个调试器代理。

And debugger agent watches stuff, and when there's a problem somewhere, it goes and figures out what the problem is and then gives you a nice explanation of what you broke and what needs to be fixed.

调试器代理会监视东西，当某个地方出现问题时，它会找出问题所在，然后为您提供一个很好的解释，说明您破坏了什么以及需要修复什么。

And we haven't turned it loose on actually fixing things yet because we don't trust it, but it's very helpful as an assistant .

我们还没有放开它来实际修复问题，因为我们不信任它，但它作为助手非常有帮助。

We had one that documented itself too.

我们也有一个自我记录的东西。

That's the other one we did recently.

这是我们最近做的另一件事。

Just turned it loose on documenting the code base and did a pretty good job of it.

只是在记录代码库方面放开了手脚，并且做得相当不错。

Sam Schillace: So it's starting to produce interesting stuff, right?

Sam Schillace：所以它开始产生有趣的东西，对吧？

Because we have these north stars that we aim things at.

因为我们有这些我们瞄准的北极星。

And I think that's maybe a good antidote to this.

我认为这可能是一个很好的解药。

Just playing with tech without being focused doesn't tend to produce anything that's super valuable.

只是不专心地玩弄技术往往不会产生任何超级有价值的东西。

But picking these, even if they're arbitrary goals, as long as they're real goals that you're trying to get to, that's useful, right?

但是选择这些，即使它们是任意目标，只要它们是你想要实现的真正目标，那就有用，对吗？

Where you're like, "I wonder if I can get this to work.

你会说，“我想知道我能否让它发挥作用。

I wonder if I can build this thing." Then grind away at that for a week and see how close I can get.

我想知道我是否能建造这个东西。”然后坚持一周，看看我能达到多接近。

See what I learned about why it's hard.

看看我了解到为什么这很难。

That's probably better than just like, "Let me poke at JavaScript for a while."

这可能比“让我研究一下 JavaScript”要好。

Lenny: It's also different, I think, at a bigger company where you need to achieve something, versus I think as just an engineer out of college just playing around, like, go for it, right?

莱尼：我认为，在一家更大的公司，你需要取得一些成就，这也是不同的，而我认为，作为一名大学毕业的工程师，只是到处玩，比如，努力去做，对吧？

It's just like, what's the worst that could happen?

就像，可能发生的最坏的情况是什么？

Sam Schillace: Even the early days of Writely, the very...

Sam Schillace：即使是 Writely 的早期，也...

I mean, we had a goal from the beginning.

我的意思是，我们从一开始就有一个目标。

The beginning was like, "Can I write a word processor in a browser?" That was literally the problem statement, right?

一开始就像是，“我可以在浏览器中编写文字处理器吗？”这实际上就是问题陈述，对吧？

It was like, "I have content edible, I have Ajax or JavaScript.

就像是，“我有可食用的内容，我有 Ajax 或 JavaScript。

Can I put these together and something that feels like a word processor?

我可以将它们放在一起并制作出像文字处理器一样的东西吗？

Let's go do that." It's kind of half messing around with tech, but it's also half an actual goal.

我们去做吧。”这一半是在搞技术，但也是一半是实际目标。

So I don't know.

所以我不知道。

Sam Schillace: I like playing around with...

Sam Schillace：我喜欢玩弄......

I think a lot of the good product ideas, most of the good product ideas actually come up from engineering.

我认为很多好的产品创意，大多数好的产品创意实际上都来自工程。

So I think there's a lot to be said for, get familiar with tools, particularly weird esoteric combinations of tools can often be useful.

所以我认为有很多话要说，熟悉工具，特别是奇怪的深奥工具组合通常很有用。

If you understand or three things...

如果你明白或三件事......

At Google, I was one of only two people in the company who had the code readability, which is the right to check in code in this language, and both a backend language, which is the monitoring language, Org Mode, a middle tier language, which is Java, and a front language, which is JavaScript.

在谷歌，我是公司里仅有的两个拥有代码可读性的人之一，即有权签入该语言的代码，并且都是后端语言，即监控语言，Org Mode，中间层语言，即 Java，以及前端语言，即 JavaScript。

No one else would do that full stack.

没有其他人会做完整的堆栈。

I think it's useful to have that broad perspective sometimes.

我认为有时拥有如此广阔的视野是很有用的。

Lenny: Sam, the Renaissance man of all languages.

莱尼：山姆，所有语言的文艺复兴者。

Sam Schillace: Yeah, ADD more like it, but yeah, I pay attention to things.

Sam Schillace：是的，ADD 更喜欢它，但是，是的，我关注事物。

Lenny: I wanted to follow this thread a little further around being good at these what if questions.

莱尼：我想进一步关注这个主题，围绕擅长这些假设问题。

It feels like you've built this, or maybe you were born with this skill of thinking in the future, thinking about what's possible, thinking about where things are going.

感觉就像你已经建造了这个，或者也许你生来就有这种思考未来的技能，思考什么是可能的，思考事情的发展方向。

Is there anything that you could recommend to people listening to get better at the skill?

您可以向聆听者推荐什么以提高技能吗？

Because for a lot of product people, this is really important to figure out, where could we be going and let's work back.

因为对于很多产品人员来说，弄清楚我们可以去哪里并让我们回去工作非常重要。

Sam Schillace: This is a really interesting question.

Sam Schillace：这是一个非常有趣的问题。

And I may actually write, I've been thinking about writing a book from some of my Sunday letters, and this is maybe the frame of it.

我实际上可能会写，我一直在考虑根据我周日的一些信件写一本书，这可能就是它的框架。

So I'm curious to see how flamed I get from saying this, it'll be interesting to see.

所以我很好奇我说这句话会引起多大的愤怒，这会很有趣。

I think there's this weird thing that I've noticed.

我想我注意到了一件奇怪的事情。

I go talk to university kids and stuff like that, and there's this weird thing I noticed where when I was in university and I would talk to old guys like me, they would all say the PC is this stupid toy, whatever, it's not real computing, go on a mainframe or whatever.

我和大学里的孩子们聊过类似的事情，我注意到有一件奇怪的事情，当我在大学的时候，我会和像我这样的老家伙聊天，他们都会说电脑是个愚蠢的玩具，无论如何，它不是真正的计算，可以在大型机上运行或者其他什么。

And my attitude was like, "Out of the way, old man, just like, you're irrelevant.

我的态度就像是，“别挡道，老兄，就像，你无关紧要。

I'm going to go do this thing.

我要去办这件事。

It's awesome." And go, go, go.

太棒了。”然后走，走，走。

Sam Schillace: And now when I talk to kids, I actually had a slide up at Michigan when I was talking recently that was titled, okay humor, and the professor actually put it up there.

萨姆·席勒斯：现在，当我和孩子们交谈时，我最近在密歇根州演讲时实际上放了一张幻灯片，标题是“好吧，幽默”，教授实际上把它放在那里。

Because this generation is very pessimistic and doesn't seem to be quite as engaged and energetic about solving problems.

因为这一代人非常悲观，似乎不太热衷于解决问题。

And I've been puzzling through it.

我一直对此感到困惑。

And I think maybe there's a bunch of different things that intersect.

我认为也许有很多不同的东西是交叉的。

Sam Schillace: I think one of them is, I think they all have to do with the willingness to take risk and to fail, honestly.

Sam Schillace：我认为其中之一是，老实说，我认为它们都与愿意承担风险和失败有关。

I think that's really where it comes from.

我认为这确实是它的来源。

So I think you see a lot of filtered content.

所以我认为您会看到很多经过过滤的内容。

And that filtered content presents low probability events like five and six-sigma events as though they were normal.

过滤后的内容呈现低概率事件，例如五西格玛事件和六西格玛事件，就好像它们是正常的一样。

So you see everybody makes $100 million in their startup in the first three months.

所以你会看到每个人在创业的前三个月就赚了 1 亿美元。

So if your startup isn't making $100 million, you're an idiot.

因此，如果你的初创公司没有赚到 1 亿美元，那你就是个白痴。

There's that stuff.

有那个东西。

There's also, you're living out loud, so when you fail in that context it feels very painful.

还有，你要大声地生活，所以当你在这种情况下失败时，会感觉非常痛苦。

Sam Schillace: But I think there's also for elite students, like people at these elite schools, they're hard to get into.

Sam Schillace：但我认为对于精英学生来说，就像这些精英学校的人一样，他们很难进入。

I went to Michigan, "You're kind of smart.

我去了密歇根州，“你很聪明。

Michigan's a good school.

密歇根是个好学校。

You live nearby, go apply to that one." Nothing serious about it, but kids in the elite schools, their lives are highly curated going up to getting into a school like that now, right?

你住附近，去那家申请吧。”没什么大不了的，但是精英学校的孩子们，他们的生活都是精心策划的，直到现在进入这样的学校，对吧？

Those students like, "I didn't do sports, I didn't do extracurricular.

那些学生喜欢说，“我没有参加体育活动，没有参加课外活动。

I was just a weird nerd having to be good at math." And so I think there's that as well.

我只是一个奇怪的书呆子，必须擅长数学。”我认为也是如此。

If you're highly curated where you've spent a lot of your life thinking, "Everything I do has to have a reason and an output." It's very hard to just mess around and do something that might lead down a surprising path, right?

如果你是一个精心策划的人，你一生中花了很多时间思考，“我所做的一切都必须有一个理由和一个结果。”胡乱做一些可能会导致出乎意料的事情是很难的，对吧​​？

So that's the curation is part of it.

所以这就是策展的一部分。

Sam Schillace: And then I think just in about the mid '80s when I graduated from high school, we stopped letting kids just play on their own, unsupervised outside with other kids.

Sam Schillace：然后我想大约在 80 年代中期，当我高中毕业时，我们不再让孩子们独自玩耍，不受监督地与其他孩子一起在外面玩耍。

I grew up in this neighborhood full of, it was like the faculty ghetto for this small university my dad taught at, and we just ran wild.

我在这个社区长大，这里就像是我父亲任教的这所小大学的教师贫民窟，我们就这样疯狂地生活。

It was on the estate of widow of Dodge Motor, founder of Dodge Motor, so we had a couple hundred acres of swamp and fields to go run around in.

那是在道奇汽车公司创始人道奇公司遗孀的庄园里，所以我们有几百英亩的沼泽和田野可以跑来跑去。

We did hair-raisingly, dangerous things that my parents never knew about, and really explored and had fun.

我们做了我父母从来不知道的令人毛骨悚然、危险的事情，并且真正探索并享受了乐趣。

Sam Schillace: I think if you put all those pieces together, I think there's much less of an ability and willingness and skillset around experimenting to the point of failure, making a fool of yourself, having bad ideas.

Sam Schillace：我认为，如果你把所有这些因素放在一起，我认为尝试到失败、出洋相、提出糟糕想法的能力、意愿和技能就会少得多。

I send stupid emails to Satya at Microsoft all the time where I'm just like, "I don't know what the hell he thinks of me at this point." Because I send him all these goofy ideas.

我总是给微软的萨蒂亚发送愚蠢的电子邮件，我的意思是，“我不知道他现在到底对我有什么看法。”因为我向他发送了所有这些愚蠢的想法。

I think he actually gets it and he's like, he likes it, because I don't think people usually do that for him.

我认为他实际上明白了，他喜欢它，因为我认为人们通常不会为他这样做。

But I'm just like, "Man, this is..." Then I'll send him an email a week later.

但我只是想，“伙计，这是……”然后我会在一周后给他发一封电子邮件。

I'm like, "Yeah, that was a dumb idea.

我想，“是的，那是一个愚蠢的想法。

Sorry about that.

对此感到抱歉。

I've decided that wasn't a very good one."

我认为这不是一件好事。”

Sam Schillace: But I think you cannot dance if you can't...

Sam Schillace：但我认为如果你不会跳舞，你就无法跳舞......

If you're afraid to embarrass yourself.

如果你害怕让自己难堪。

You cannot succeed if you're afraid to fail.

如果你害怕失败，你就不可能成功。

That's just how it is.

就是这样。

You have to have that sense of play.

你必须有那种游戏意识。

You have to have that sense of, it's okay if this doesn't work, I'll iterate on it.

你必须有这样的感觉，如果这不起作用也没关系，我会重复它。

I have this personal motto, which is, from error comes virtue.

我有这样一条个人座右铭，那就是错误源于美德。

Because I'm a maker, I make stuff.

因为我是一名创客，所以我制造东西。

And I fuck it up all the time.

我总是把事情搞砸。

I have poor motor skills, so I make mistakes constantly, and then I just figure out how to make the mistake into a virtue somehow.

我的运动技能很差，所以我经常犯错误，然后我就想办法以某种方式把错误变成一种美德。

So I think it's a really good skill to have.

所以我认为这是一项非常好的技能。

The saying I took on this year and I really, really like it as my...

我今年接受的这句话，我真的非常喜欢它作为我的......

I never had a personal motto before.

我以前从未有过个人座右铭。

I think it might be my personal motto, it's like, virtue from error.

我想这可能是我个人的座右铭，就像“美德源于错误”。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

On this topic of failing.

关于失败这个话题。

I think a lot of people hear this advice and they're like, "Yeah, okay, I need to fail more." It's hard to do.

我想很多人听到这个建议都会说，“是的，好吧，我需要失败更多。”这很难做到。

And oftentimes your performance at a company is negatively impacted.

通常，您在公司的绩效会受到负面影响。

And it feels like for you it was just, you've done it enough times where fine, okay, it's going to be fine.

对你来说，感觉就像是，你已经做了足够多次了，好吧，好吧，一切都会好起来的。

I launch this thing, no one cares.

我推出这个东西，没有人关心。

I email Satya this thing, he ignores it or he doesn't.

我给萨提亚发了一封电子邮件，说这件事，他要么忽略，要么不忽略。

It's going to be okay.

一切都会好起来的。

Is that maybe the key to this or is there anything else that you've done to allow you to be okay with failure?

这可能是问题的关键吗？或者你还做了什么其他事情让你能够坦然接受失败吗？

Sam Schillace: I feel like you can have a linear return on your effort if you manage things in a linear way, which is I think that tightly managing, okay, nothing's going to be surprising, I'm going to be within this boundary, I'm going to slowly accrete value, I'm going to play this game, whatever.

Sam Schillace：我觉得如果你以线性方式管理事情，你的努力就能得到线性回报，也就是说，我认为严格管理，好吧，没有什么会令人惊讶的，我将在这个边界内，我将慢慢积累价值，我将玩这个游戏，无论如何。

I think you can have a nice linear, boring return to your career and you'll climb the ladder, it takes 30 years or whatever.

我认为你可以在你的职业生涯中得到一个很好的线性、无聊的回报，然后你会爬上阶梯，这需要 30 年或更长的时间。

I don't have the patience for that.

我没有那个耐心。

And I think the way you get extraordinary returns is you do extraordinary things, right?

我认为你获得非凡回报的方式就是你做非凡的事情，对吗？

You have to take bigger risks, and have more interesting shots to have this kind of extraordinary result in your career.

你必须冒更大的风险，有更多有趣的镜头，才能在你的职业生涯中取得如此非凡的成绩。

Sam Schillace: I feel like I always tell people, I think...

Sam Schillace：我觉得我总是告诉别人，我想......

I mean, I pitch this because I've observed myself and thought about what has been successful in my career.

我的意思是，我提出这一点是因为我观察了自己并思考了我职业生涯中取得成功的因素。

It's not a thing everybody can do.

这不是每个人都能做得到的事情。

I'm just kind of like this.

我就是这样的一个人。

I never really fully grew up.

我从未真正完全长大。

I'm kind of this weirdo.

我就是这样一个怪人。

I still feel...

我还是觉得...

I'm 57 now, and I feel like I'm about 17.

我现在57岁了，我感觉自己大约17岁。

I'm still very immature and like to mess around with stuff and play with things.

我还很不成熟，喜欢乱搞东西、玩东西。

So not everybody can do it.

所以不是每个人都能做到。

But I think there's, at the end of the day, the reason you get ahead in your career is you had a lot of impact.

但我认为，归根结底，你在职业生涯中取得进步的原因是你产生了很大的影响。

And the reason you had a lot of impact was because you picked something that you're good at that you did with a lot of intensity that wound up having impact, right?

你产生很大影响的原因是因为你选择了你擅长的事情，你付出了很大的努力，最终产生了影响，对吗？

And so I think the good at part of it is hard too.

所以我认为其中的优点也很困难。

We tend to undervalue the things we're good at.

我们往往会低估自己擅长的事情。

We tend to think work has to be unpleasant.

我们倾向于认为工作一定是不愉快的。

And so if something is easy and fun, we don't tend to think it's very valuable.

因此，如果某件事既简单又有趣，我们往往不会认为它非常有价值。

Sam Schillace: So I think lots of people gravitate in this direction of, let's go do unpleasant things and grind our way through the career, because that's the way to make it.

Sam Schillace：所以我认为很多人都倾向于这个方向，让我们去做一些不愉快的事情，在职业生涯中磨练自己的方式，因为这就是成功的方法。

But the reality is, you should go do the thing that you feel guilty to get paid for, if there's a thing like that, and do the hell out of it, right?

但现实是，如果有这样的事情，你应该去做那些让你感到内疚并获得报酬的事情，然后彻底完成它，对吗？

Do it as hard as you can.

尽你所能地努力去做。

If you get pleasure from doing something that people want to pay you for, do it the best you can do it, as hard as you can do it.

如果你从做人们愿意付钱给你的事情中得到乐趣，那就尽你所能，尽你所能地去做。

And if that's messing around and playing around with cool ideas, do the hell out of that.

如果那是在胡闹，玩弄很酷的想法，那就滚蛋吧。

Sam Schillace: Work doesn't necessarily have to be hard.

Sam Schillace：工作不一定很辛苦。

It often is, but it doesn't have to be.

通常是这样，但不一定是这样。

And the best case is that it isn't.

最好的情况是事实并非如此。

The most impact you'll ever have is where you're in that mode where you're just in the flow and doing your thing and you're happy to do it and you can't quite believe they pay you and you don't understand how you're getting away with this, but it's super cool anyways, right?

你所拥有的最大影响力就是你处于那种模式，你只是在流程中，做你的事情，你很高兴这样做，你不敢相信他们付钱给你，你不明白你是如何逃脱惩罚的，但无论如何，这太酷了，对吧？

I think that's the career thing that makes sense to me.

我认为这对我来说是有意义的职业。

At least that's what I've done.

至少我就是这么做的。

Who knows?

谁知道？

It's all luck sometimes, so it's hard to replicate these.

有时这完全是运气，所以很难复制这些。

Everybody has a different path.

每个人都有不同的路。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

I love that advice.

我喜欢这个建议。

It's exactly where I was going to take our conversation, so I love that you took us there.

这正是我要进行谈话的地方，所以我很高兴你带我们去那里。

It makes me think of, I'm reading Charlie Munger's Almanac, which just came out through Stripe Press.

这让我想起，我正在读查理·芒格的年鉴，它刚刚由 Stripe Press 出版。

And Warren Buffett and Charlie Munger's whole philosophy is, when you find an advantage, just go huge.

沃伦·巴菲特和查理·芒格的整个哲学是，当你找到优势时，就做大。

Just go big, right?

就做大吧？

Make one bet a year.

一年赌一次。

But when you find that, go for it.

但当你发现这一点时，就去做吧。

Don't buy a little bit at a time.

不要一次买一点点。

And I love that.

我喜欢这样。

That's exactly what you're saying.

这正是你所说的。

Sam Schillace: Sometimes things don't make sense either.

Sam Schillace：有时事情也没有意义。

So I'll lean over and show you, for people with the video.

所以我会倾身向你们展示给那些有视频的人。

That's an instrument I made.

那是我制作的乐器。

It's an instrument.

它是一种乐器。

So the top of that's a piece of redwood, this one right behind me with the cat eyes, the reason it's got these weird cat eyes, by the way, this is virtue from error right there, I dug this piece of wood out of the forest.

所以它的顶部是一块红木，这块就在我身后，有猫眼，它之所以有这些奇怪的猫眼，顺便说一句，这是错误的美德，我从森林里挖出了这块木头。

It'd been sitting on the forest floor for 80 years trying to not rot and doing a pretty good job of it, because it's Redwood.

它已经在森林地面上放置了 80 年，试图不腐烂，并且做得很好，因为它是红木。

Sam Schillace: And there were knots in it.

Sam Schillace：里面有结。

So those two cat eyes are where the knots were.

所以那两只猫眼就是结所在的地方。

There's another knot right here that I couldn't get out.

这里还有一个结，我无法解开。

But there's two knots in there that I had to carve out of there.

但那里有两个结，我必须从那里切掉。

That's a very weird design that I did by hand.

这是我手工完成的一个非常奇怪的设计。

It doesn't quite work.

这不太管用。

It's kind of a failure.

这有点失败。

The arch of it's a little bit too high, so it's a little hard to play, because the pick hits the top because the strings get a little bit close to the top.

它的拱形有点太高了，所以弹起来有点困难，因为拨片会击中顶部，因为琴弦有点靠近顶部。

So like that...

就这样...

Sam Schillace: But that's an experiment.

Sam Schillace：但那是一个实验。

I was playing around.

我正在玩耍。

I wanted to do this thing.

我想做这件事。

It was fun to do.

做起来很有趣。

It was a passion project.

这是一个充满激情的项目。

Now it's just hanging on the wall.

现在它只是挂在墙上。

Not everything works.

并非一切都有效。

Clearly I don't have a career as a luthier either.

显然我也没有制琴师的职业。

So it's more just a fun thing to do.

所以这更像是一件有趣的事情。

But that's just a good example of the...

但这只是一个很好的例子...

I don't know.

我不知道。

Sometimes I don't even understand why I do stuff.

有时我什至不明白我为什么要做一些事情。

You just do it because you do it.

你只是因为你这样做而这样做。

Because it makes some sense to you.

因为这对你来说有意义。

Lenny: Many people are in the opposite boat where they don't like what they're doing, they're miserable, but they have to have a job.

莱尼：很多人都处于相反的状态，他们不喜欢自己所做的事情，他们很痛苦，但他们必须有一份工作。

They need income, they need to pay their rent, feed their family.

他们需要收入，需要支付房租，养活家人。

Sam Schillace: I know, I realize what I'm saying is very privileged, and I am sorry about that.

Sam Schillace：我知道，我意识到我所说的是非常荣幸的，对此我感到很抱歉。

But from some perspective.

但从某种角度来说。

Lenny: But I imagine you were also in those situations occasionally.

莱尼：但我想你偶尔也会遇到这种情况。

Is there anything you recommend to folks that aren't in that, I would do this for free, I'm so excited about this work?

你有什么推荐给那些不在其中的人吗？我会免费做这个，我对这项工作很兴奋？

Do you recommend try to get out that as soon as you can?

你建议尽快摆脱它吗？

Is it enjoy it as much as you can, get the most out of it?

是否尽可能地享受它，充分利用它？

Sam Schillace: I mean, I've done plenty of things for money.

Sam Schillace：我的意思是，为了钱我做了很多事情。

I've done plenty of jobs to make money for my family, things I did not enjoy doing.

为了养家糊口，我做了很多工作，但我并不喜欢做这些事情。

All I can say is really, I stopped doing those things as soon as I could stop doing them.

我只能说，一旦我能停止做这些事情，我就不再做这些事情了。

Not only as fast as I physically could, because I definitely had that Calvinist, oldest boy thing of, must provide, must suffer kind of thing.

不仅是我身体上能做到的尽可能快，因为我绝对有加尔文主义者，最大的男孩的东西，必须提供，必须遭受之类的事情。

So it took me a long time to realize, no, actually I'm really creative.

所以我花了很长时间才意识到，不，实际上我真的很有创造力。

I don't have to be like everybody else.

我不必像其他人一样。

I can have my own path, and I can be this weird engineer.

我可以有自己的路，我可以成为这个奇怪的工程师。

I always joke that I'm an engineer.

我总是开玩笑说我是一名工程师。

Two is a prime number.

二是素数。

It's just like I'm kind of a programmer, but not real...

这就像我是一名程序员，但不是真正的......

I'm this weird non-linear person that only barely fits into the programming world.

我是一个奇怪的非线性人，几乎不适合编程世界。

But it's okay.

但没关系。

It took me a long time to figure out that I could do that, that I could be comfortable with that part of myself.

我花了很长时间才弄清楚我可以做到这一点，我可以对自己的那一部分感到满意​​。

Sam Schillace: And I'm fortunate enough now that I've done enough things and have enough of a connection and network that people understand who I am and the value I can bring.

Sam Schillace：我现在很幸运，我做了足够多的事情，拥有足够的人脉和网络，让人们了解我是谁以及我能带来的价值。

And so I get away with doing that stuff that I like doing.

所以我就去做那些我喜欢做的事情。

So it is kind of privileged advice, and it's not something everybody can do at every stage in their career.

所以这是一种特权建议，并不是每个人在职业生涯的每个阶段都能做到的。

Certainly earlier stages you often have to make compromises, but I still think it's worth paying attention to, right?

当然早期阶段你经常要做出妥协，但我仍然认为这是值得关注的，对吧？

When you're working, what makes you happy?

当你工作的时候，什么让你快乐？

What is the stuff that you feel guilty for getting away with?

哪些事情让你因为逃脱而感到内疚？

When I started managing people, I couldn't understand why people were paying me and I wasn't writing code, because all of my energy was attached to, "I can produce a lot of lines of code every day." And I asked my boss at the time, "Why are you so happy with this?

当我开始管理人员时，我无法理解为什么人们付钱给我，而我却没有写代码，因为我所有的精力都集中在“我每天可以编写很多行代码”。我当时问我的老板：“你为什么对此这么高兴？

I'm not writing anything." He's like, "I don't know what you're doing.

我什么也没写。”他就像是，“我不知道你在做什么。

Everywhere you go, it gets better.

无论你走到哪里，一切都会变得更好。

So just keep doing whatever it is you're doing."

所以，继续做你正在做的事情。”

Sam Schillace: And that was one of these moments where I was just like, "Oh, I could do something else and it's kind of fun.

Sam Schillace：那是我当时想的时刻之一，“哦，我可以做其他事情，这很有趣。

I like talking to people all day.

我喜欢整天和人说话。

That's great.

太好了。

They're going to pay me for talking to people all day.

他们会因为我整天与人交谈而付钱给我。

If they seem happy, I'm happy.

如果他们看起来很高兴，我就很高兴。

Let me just lean into this for a while and see where it goes." So I think you just look for those moments when somebody is willing to let you do something that you feel happy to do, surprisingly happy to do, or doesn't feel like it's the thing you "should be doing".

让我先研究一下这个问题，看看会发生什么。”所以我认为你只是寻找那些有人愿意让你做一些你觉得很高兴做、出奇高兴做的事情，或者感觉这不是你“应该做”的事情的时刻。

If you get those surprises like this, I think this goes back to this openness, the optimism that we were talking about.

如果你得到这样的惊喜，我认为这可以追溯到我们正在谈论的这种开放性和乐观主义。

You have to be receptive and attentive to those moments when they show up.

当它们出现时，你必须保持接受和关注。

So I think they are in every career.

所以我认为他们在各个职业中都有。

If you listen for them, you'll see stuff show up where you don't think of it as who you are, but somebody else sees it in you and if you can be open to it, you can do these pivots.

如果你倾听他们的声音，你会发现一些东西出现在你不认为是你是谁的地方，但其他人在你身上看到了它，如果你能对此持开放态度，你就可以实现这些转变。

Lenny: When you talk about that, that makes me think of Seth Godin has this really important advice that's always stuck with me, that no matter what job you're in, just try to enjoy it and do the best version of that job you can, because you'll enjoy it more, that you'll end up being more successful, and it's just a good habit to just like, "I'm just going to do the best I can at being a waitress at this place.

莱尼：当你谈到这个时，这让我想起赛斯·戈丁（Seth Godin）有一条非常重要的建议，一直困扰着我，无论你从事什么工作，只要尝试享受它，并尽力做到最好，因为你会更喜欢它，你最终会更成功，这只是一个好习惯，“我只是在这个地方尽我所能，成为一名女服务员。

I'm just going to do the best at greeting people entering the Apple Store."

我只是会尽最大努力迎接进入 Apple Store 零售店的人们。”

Sam Schillace: Absolutely.

萨姆·席勒斯：当然。

Yeah, I think that's absolutely right.

是的，我认为这是绝对正确的。

And even more than that, just find a way to bring yourself to it, right?

更重要的是，找到一种方法让自己参与其中，对吧？

What is the thing that you can do in this role that is unique to you that you're the most comfortable with, right, where you really have high impact.

在这个角色中，你能做的、对你来说独一无二的、你最舒服的、真正具有高影响力的事情是什么。

I don't know.

我不知道。

I tend to be very, it's kind of a joke because I'm a programmer, I tend to be a very binary person, right?

我倾向于非常，这是一个笑话，因为我是一名程序员，我倾向于是一个非常二元的人，对吧？

I'm either all in or all out on something.

我要么全力以赴，要么全力以赴。

So whenever I do something, I do it with just a ridiculous amount of intensity, for better or for worse.

因此，每当我做某事时，无论好坏，我都会以一种荒谬的强度去做。

So I find the ways to do stuff.

所以我找到了做事的方法。

I tend to be very unhappy if I can't be intense in something successfully, and then if I can be intense in it successfully, I'm happier and the people around me are probably less happy, but stuff happens.

如果我不能成功地专注于某件事，我往往会非常不高兴，然后，如果我能够成功地专注于某件事，我会更快乐，而我周围的人可能不那么快乐，但事情总会发生。

Anyways, I get things done.

无论如何，我会把事情做好。

Lenny: Speaking of getting things done and being intense and working things that are really interesting, you're responsible for some of the cutting-edge work happening at Microsoft in AI.

Lenny：说到把事情做好、紧张、做真正有趣的事情，你负责微软人工智能领域的一些前沿工作。

You're spending a lot of time in AI.

你在人工智能上花费了大量时间。

I'm curious to get your take on just what you find interesting, where you think things are going, what people should know about AI.

我很想知道您对哪些方面感兴趣、您认为事情的发展方向以及人们应该了解人工智能的哪些方面的看法。

I'll share a couple of quotes that you put out somewhere that I have here that I think are cool.

我将分享您在我这里引用的一些我认为很酷的引言。

One is, "AI isn't a feature of your product.

其中之一是，“人工智能不是你产品的一个功能。

Your product is a feature of AI."

你的产品是人工智能的一个特点。”

Lenny: Another is, "It'll be possible to add some value by building AI into your product, but really transformative massive value will come from building apps and solutions that won't work at all without it, that treat it as a true platform."

莱尼：另一个是，“通过将人工智能构建到你的产品中，可以增加一些价值，但真正具有变革性的巨大价值将来自于构建没有它就根本无法工作的应用程序和解决方案，将其视为一个真正的平台。”

Sam Schillace: Yeah, I think both of those are really true.

Sam Schillace：是的，我认为这两点都是真的。

So what I'm working on is, most of the industry right now is focused on, when you talk about somebody who's working in AI, it's somebody who's creating models, right?

所以我正在做的事情是，现在大多数行业都关注的是，当你谈论从事人工智能工作的人时，他们就是在创建模型的人，对吗？

It's somebody who's figuring out how to do some new open source model or somebody who's doing some new training or make some model bigger.

有人正在研究如何做一些新的开源模型，或者有人正在做一些新的培训或使一些模型变得更大。

And I think that's very, it's valid, useful work.

我认为这是非常、有效、有用的工作。

It's just not the kind of work I like to do very much.

这不是我非常喜欢做的工作。

And a lot of people are doing it.

而且很多人都在这么做。

Sam Schillace: And so I'm an app builder, I'm a tool builder, and so I don't create models, I consume them, right?

Sam Schillace：所以我是一个应用程序构建者，我是一个工具构建者，所以我不创建模型，我使用它们，对吗？

I want to build things around them.

我想围绕它们构建一些东西。

And so when I started with Microsoft, started working on GPT-4 with Microsoft in September of last year, my immediate reaction to it after picking my jaw up off the floor, which we were all doing in the early days, was, "Okay, this is cool, but in some computer science sense, it's just this function, this stochastic pure function that just takes a character array and rearranges it and hands it back to you.

因此，当我开始与 Microsoft 合作，并于去年 9 月开始与 Microsoft 合作开发 GPT-4 时，我的第一反应是，“好吧，这很酷，但从某种计算机科学的角度来看，它只是这个函数，这个随机纯函数，它只需要一个字符数组并重新排列它，然后将其返回给你。

That's not much of a building block for building programs.

这并不是构建程序的基石。

We need state and we need control flow, and orchestration, and call-outs."

我们需要状态，需要控制流、编排和调用。”

Sam Schillace: So that just started me down this rabbit hole of thinking about building the Semantic Kernel, which we built, and then building Infinite Chatbot, which was next, and these other projects we've been working on.

Sam Schillace：这让我开始思考如何构建我们构建的语义内核，然后构建下一步的无限聊天机器人，以及我们一直在从事的其他项目。

And the more I think about this stuff, the more I do think those two quotes are good quotes.

我对这个问题思考得越多，我就越认为这两句话是很好的引言。

I think what's going to happen over time...

我想随着时间的推移会发生什么...

I actually think we're at the beginning of this just gigantic disruption in the software industry.

事实上，我认为我们正处于软件行业这场巨大颠覆的开始阶段。

I think the way that the internet made distribution of information free, I think AI is going to make pixels free.

我认为互联网使信息传播变得免费，我认为人工智能将使像素变得免费。

Sam Schillace: So pixels are expensive to produce now, they take programmers and they take lots of infrastructure, and putting a pixel in front of the user is a hard thing to do and lots of software is predicated on that.

Sam Schillace：所以现在像素的生产成本很高，它们需要程序员，需要大量的基础设施，而将像素放在用户面前是一件很难做到的事情，很多软件都是以此为基础的。

Lots of business is.

很多生意都是。

The way lots of businesses were predicated on it being hard to distribute information 25 years ago.

25 年前，许多企业都认为信息传播很困难。

But you can see this already with things like just images, right?

但你已经可以通过图像之类的东西看到这一点，对吧？

Two years ago, if you wanted a piece of digital art, you had to go invent Photoshop, learn to use Photoshop, use Photoshop to do the drawing, build the skills up.

两年前，如果你想要一件数字艺术作品，你必须去发明Photoshop，学习使用Photoshop，用Photoshop画画，提高技能。

That's a lot of work to produce those pixels.

生成这些像素需要大量工作。

Now it's like, I want a picture of a cat riding a bike eating a banana, done, right?

现在就像，我想要一张猫骑自行车吃香蕉的照片，完成了，对吧？

So those pixels got really free.

所以这些像素变得真正自由了。

Sam Schillace: And the similar things are happening in the business world as well, and I think it's just going to start to happen everywhere.

Sam Schillace：类似的事情也在商业世界中发生，我认为这种情况将开始在各地发生。

So you can draw...

这样你就可以画...

This is what if, let's go ask some what ifs.

这就是如果，让我们去问一些如果。

So what if the models get really good at planning, so they get more independent, they can do longer and complicated things?

那么，如果模型非常擅长规划，因此它们变得更加独立，可以做更长、更复杂的事情呢？

What if the multimodal stuff gets really good so that they can both consume and produce dynamic UI like I was talking about?

如果多模式的东西变得非常好，这样它们就可以像我所说的那样消费和生成动态 UI，该怎么办？

What if we figure out a good way to store state, this is my bots or docs thing.

如果我们找到一种存储状态的好方法怎么办，这是我的机器人或文档的事情。

So what if do we figure out a good way for you to really highly personalize something so it knows you really well and you trust it with confidential information?

那么，如果我们能找到一种好方法让您真正高度个性化某些东西，以便它非常了解您并且您信任它并提供机密信息呢？

Sam Schillace: If you have all of those things, you're just going to spend a lot of time talking to that agent.

Sam Schillace：如果你拥有所有这些东西，你就会花很多时间与该经纪人交谈。

It's like, what would you do...

就像，你会做什么...

If you imagine you're the richest person in the world, you've got 100 of the best people working for you, and a chief of staff, and they're tireless, and they never fight with each other, they do everything you want.

如果你想象你是世界上最富有的人，你有 100 名最优秀的人为你工作，还有一位幕僚长，他们不知疲倦，他们从不互相争斗，他们做你想做的一切。

With that staff supporting you, what are you doing with software?

有了这些支持你的员工，你正在用软件做什么？

What are you doing when you're sitting in front of a screen?

当你坐在屏幕前时你在做什么？

Well, you're probably communicating intention and you're probably consuming some either entertainment or some of the products of that intent.

好吧，你可能正在传达意图，并且你可能正在消费一些娱乐或一些具有该意图的产品。

And that's about it.

就是这样。

You're not messing around with pokey static apps and stuff.

您不会浪费时间使用静态应用程序之类的东西。

That doesn't work, right?

那不行，对吧？

You're just telling your staff to deal with stuff for you.

你只是告诉你的员工为你处理事情。

Sam Schillace: So I think that's where we're headed, I think, in the world of software at least.

Sam Schillace：所以我认为这就是我们的发展方向，至少在软件领域是这样。

Things are going to get more dynamic, more intentional, more semantic, more fluid, then more personalized.

事情将变得更加动态、更加有意向、更加语义化、更加流畅，然后更加个性化。

I think there's a ton of problems to be solved to make that vision real.

我认为要使这一愿景成为现实，还有很多问题需要解决。

But I think this feels to me a little bit like seeing the Palm maybe, or the early iPhone, where you're just like, "Okay, I get it.

但我认为这对我来说有点像看到 Palm，或者早期的 iPhone，你会说，“好吧，我明白了。

Phones are going to get interesting.

手机将会变得有趣。

That's a new device.

那是一个新设备。

Now we got to go do a whole bunch of engineering before they actually are as useful as they're today." Right?

现在我们必须进行大量的工程设计，才能让它们像今天一样有用。”正确的？

Sam Schillace: So I get it.

萨姆·席勒斯：所以我明白了。

I think software is going to change radically now.

我认为软件现在将会发生根本性的变化。

I had the same feeling when we started doing...

当我们开始做的时候我也有同样的感觉...

This is going back to G Docs again.

这又回到G Docs了。

It's another lesson.

这是另一个教训。

It's another one of these category shifts.

这是类别转变的另一个例子。

The second we got Writely up on its feet and I was like, "Ah, the browser is actually a platform that you can actually build real apps in.

当我们让 Writely 站起来时，我就想，“啊，浏览器实际上是一个你可以在其中构建真正应用程序的平台。

I get it, the world's going to change." And we had a ton of stuff to do, right?

我明白了，世界将会改变。”我们还有很多事情要做，对吧？

Nobody really understood distributed systems.

没有人真正理解分布式系统。

Nobody understood how to build stuff in multiple places at once or how you deal with replication, how you deal with security, all kinds of hard...

没有人理解如何同时在多个地方构建东西，或者如何处理复制，如何处理安全性，各种困难......

All the development patterns had to shift from Waterfall, to Agile, to CI-CD, all this stuff had to change to fully realize that world.

所有的开发模式都必须从瀑布式、敏捷式、CI-CD 转变，所有这些都必须改变才能完全实现这个世界。

Sam Schillace: But I remember back in 2005, this very quick...

Sam Schillace：但我记得在 2005 年，这很快......

And the people who were the strong proponents, I think all saw this, instantly saw that the world had changed and there was this new category.

我想，那些强烈支持者都看到了这一点，立即看到世界已经改变，出现了这个新类别。

And I have exactly the same feeling about generative AI.

我对生成式人工智能也有同样的感觉。

Like, yep, software's going to totally change.

就像，是的，软件将会彻底改变。

These businesses are going to totally change.

这些企业将彻底改变。

It might take 10 years to really work through all of it, but yep, door open, new room, new game, start coloring in the blanks, right?

真正完成所有这些可能需要 10 年时间，但是是的，门打开，新房间，新游戏，开始在空白处着色，对吗？

Let's go.

我们走吧。

Sam Schillace: So that's where I think we're going.

Sam Schillace：所以我想这就是我们要去的地方。

And that sounded really certain, it probably sounded more certain than I should sound.

这听起来确实很确定，可能听起来比我应该听起来的更确定。

I think there's a lot of, probably a quarter at least, if not a half of what I just said is wrong in some way.

我认为我刚才所说的有很多，可能至少有四分之一，如果不是一半的话，在某种程度上是错误的。

So we're going to learn a bunch of stuff along the way.

因此，我们将一路学习很多东西。

And there's a lot of work to do, a whole lot of work to do and a whole lot of unanticipated side effects are going to pop out, and there's just a whole lot of stuff to get that to be real the way there was with all of the last transformations.

还有很多工作要做，大量的工作要做，大量意想不到的副作用将会出现，而且还有很多东西要让它像所有最后的转变那样成为现实。

But I think this is just a giant category shift.

但我认为这只是一个巨大的品类转变。

I think it's just incontrovertible that it is.

我认为这是无可争议的。

Sam Schillace: It's kind of funny when Gemini came out, all the press take was like, "Oh, it's not that different from GPT-4.

Sam Schillace：当 Gemini 出现时，这有点有趣，所有媒体都说，“哦，它与 GPT-4 没有什么不同。

I guess we're done with AI now, we can go back to bed." I'm like, "That is the dumbest possible interpretation of that story that you could come up with I think." Of all the takes you could have had on that, I think that was the dumbest one honestly.

我想我们现在已经用完了人工智能，我们可以回去睡觉了。”我想，“我认为这是你能想到的对这个故事最愚蠢的解释。”老实说，在你对此可以有的所有看法中，我认为这是最愚蠢的一个。

It could say many things about either company.

它可以说明这两家公司的很多事情。

It could say many things about the science.

它可以说明很多关于科学的事情。

But, "Guess there's nothing here to see." Is not one of them.

但是，“我猜这里没有什么可看的。”不是其中之一。

Lenny: For somebody listening that wants to not fall behind on this and or find opportunity for their product, other than just playing with it, which is what everyone is always saying, just like, "Play with it.

莱尼：对于那些想要在这方面不落后或为他们的产品找到机会的听众来说，除了玩它之外，这是每个人总是说的，就像，“玩它。

Use ChatGPT, use Bard, and all these things." Is there any advice you'd give listeners for how to approach thinking about AI, how it integrates into the stuff they're doing?

使用 ChatGPT、使用 Bard 以及所有这些东西。”关于如何思考人工智能，如何将人工智能融入到他们正在做的事情中，你有什么建议吗？

Sam Schillace: Yeah, I agree with you.

萨姆·席勒斯：是的，我同意你的观点。

Just play with it, is not really great advice.

只是玩玩而已，这并不是什么好建议。

I think the best technique I've really seen for learning things is to pick a thing to do with the thing you're trying to learn, right?

我认为我见过的最好的学习技巧就是选择与你想要学习的东西相关的东西，对吗？

Even if it's an unreasonable...

哪怕是无理取闹……

Even if it's a goofy, weird thing, right?

即使这是一件愚蠢而奇怪的事情，对吧？

Like I'm going to figure out how to draw funny pictures with this programming language or whatever.

就像我要弄清楚如何用这种编程语言或其他语言绘制有趣的图片。

Even if it's a dumb thing like that, picking some arbitrary goal and being a little bit stubborn about trying to get yourself to it is a good way to learn stuff.

即使这是一件愚蠢的事情，选择一些任意的目标并有点顽固地尝试让自己实现它也是学习东西的好方法。

Sam Schillace: And then the question is, "What goals are you picking?" So try to pick goals that lead somewhere maybe at least a little bit interesting.

Sam Schillace：然后问题是，“你选择什么目标？”因此，尝试选择一些可能至少有点有趣的目标。

So if your goal is just like, "I'm going to mess around with ChatGP for an hour." That's not really much of a goal.

因此，如果您的目标只是“我要在 ChatGP 上玩一小时”。这并不是一个真正的目标。

If it's like, "I'm going to go try to GPT that can do this part of my job, let's see how close I can get." That's more interesting, right?

如果它是这样的：“我要尝试使用 GPT 来完成我这部分工作，让我们看看我能做到什么程度。”这更有趣，对吧？

Sam Schillace: And I do think unfortunately, one of the other ways in which this is very reminiscent of the early dot com era, and I think plenty of people have said this, is this sense of exhaustion in keeping up.

Sam Schillace：不幸的是，我确实认为，这让人想起早期网络时代的另一种方式是，我认为很多人都说过这一点，那就是跟上时代的疲惫感。

There's so much stuff going on right now.

现在发生了很多事情。

And that's I think another good strong indicator that something really big is going on, where it's just very, very difficult to keep track of all the stuff that's happening.

我认为这是另一个很好的强有力的指标，表明正在发生一些非常大的事情，而跟踪所有正在发生的事情是非常非常困难的。

It's kind of interesting, because I remember, just to kick crypto's corpse one last time, there was a tweet at the beginning of the year that I saw that somebody was like, "Yeah, it took the AI bros a week to come up with as many use cases as crypto came up with in a decade." Which definitely feels true, right?

这很有趣，因为我记得，为了最后一次踢加密货币的尸体，今年年初有一条推文，我看到有人说，“是的，人工智能兄弟花了一周的时间才想出了加密货币十年来那么多的用例。”这绝对感觉是真的，对吧？

It's just so much stuff going on.

发生了太多事情。

And I think you just have to try to keep track of it.

我认为你只需要尝试跟踪它。

Sam Schillace: One of the other things I think is going on in the moment, which feels a lot like the cloud moment to me, is it's hard to get the first idea.

Sam Schillace：我认为目前正在发生的另一件事（对我来说感觉很像云时刻）是很难获得第一个想法。

The zero to one is hard.

从零到一很难。

Understanding that there's something there at all is the really hard part, because you have to be lucky and you have to be talented and you have to look in the right place and do some very hard work.

理解那里有什么东西是真正困难的部分，因为你必须幸运，你必须有才华，你必须寻找正确的地方并做一些非常努力的工作。

But once you understand that there's something there, like the cloud model works, or their generative AI matters and scale works and stuff like that.

但是，一旦你明白其中有一些东西，比如云模型有效，或者他们的生成式人工智能很重要，规模有效等等。

Once you're there, the one to many, all the optimization stuff, that happens in parallel, it happens really quickly.

一旦你到达那里，一对多、所有优化的事情都是并行发生的，它发生得非常快。

Many, many, many people can do it.

很多很多很多人都可以做到。

There's a lot of energy.

有很多能量。

It'll just go really fast.

一切都会变得非常快。

Sam Schillace: So I think we're in that phase where just like we're in the elaboration phase where we understand this step and people are just filling in all the white space as fast as they can.

Sam Schillace：所以我认为我们正处于这样一个阶段，就像我们处于详细阐述阶段一样，我们理解这一步，人们只是尽快填写所有空白。

So that'll slow down eventually, hopefully.

所以希望这最终会减慢。

We'll see what the next year brings.

我们将看看明年会带来什么。

But yeah, it's a hard time.

但是，是的，这是一段艰难的时期。

It's hard for professionals even.

即使对于专业人士来说也很难。

I think you just have to read a lot.

我认为你只需要多读书。

You have to think a lot.

你必须想很多。

You have to play with stuff.

你必须玩东西。

You have to choose your battles.

你必须选择你的战斗。

You have to pick good targets.

你必须选择好的目标。

Pick a goal in your domain that would matter to you if you can get to it, and then go try to solve that problem with some specific technology and get to know that technology.

在您的领域中选择一个对您来说很重要的目标（如果您能够实现），然后尝试使用某些特定技术解决该问题并了解该技术。

Sam Schillace: Maybe pick the technology based on how popular it seems, if you want to learn something lots of people .

Sam Schillace：如果你想学习很多人的东西，也许可以根据它的流行程度来选择技术。

Those are all good.

这些都很好。

I think you just have these kind of mundane...

我认为你只是拥有这些平凡的东西......

I don't think it's really a secret, I don't think.

我不认为这真的是一个秘密，我不认为。

They're kind of mundane strategies, but you just have to pick some stuff and do some homework.

它们是一些普通的策略，但你只需要选择一些东西并做一些功课。

And there's no magic single bullet to learning this stuff.

学习这些东西并没有灵丹妙药。

You just have to run.

你只需要跑。

It's like, "How do I run this sprint without getting out of breath?" You don't.

就像，“我怎样才能跑完这个冲刺而不气喘吁吁？”你不知道。

You're going to be out of breath, run hard.

你会气喘吁吁，努力奔跑。

It's just what it is.

就是这样。

Lenny: I love that advice.

莱尼：我喜欢这个建议。

And I love it connects to everything else that you've been talking about is, find some problem someone has, find some value you could provide, and then think about, how can AI potentially provide that?

我喜欢它与你一直在谈论的其他一切联系在一起，找到某人遇到的一些问题，找到你可以提供的一些价值，然后思考，人工智能如何能够提供这些价值？

I think that's really practical.

我认为这真的很实用。

Great advice.

很好的建议。

Maybe a last question just around Microsoft.

也许最后一个问题是围绕微软的。

It feels like Microsoft is firing on all cylinders.

感觉微软正在全力以赴。

It feels like it's become one of the most innovative companies out there.

感觉它已经成为最具创新性的公司之一。

It feels like Satya is known now as the most innovative, best executing CEO out there potentially.

感觉萨蒂亚现在被认为是最具创新性、执行力最好的潜在首席执行官。

That's just what it feels like.

这就是感觉。

Being on the inside, I'm just curious, what is it that you think Microsoft is doing so right or how they think that enables them to be so innovative and continue to be such a behemoth as so much has changed in tech?

作为内部人士，我只是很好奇，您认为微软做得如此正确的原因是什么，或者他们认为如何使他们能够如此创新，并在科技发生如此巨大的变化时继续成为如此庞然大物？

Sam Schillace: There's a couple of things.

Sam Schillace：有几件事。

First of all, I think very, very highly of Satya, or I wouldn't be there.

首先，我对萨蒂亚的评价非常非常高，否则我就不会在那里。

I really, really like Satya.

我真的非常喜欢萨蒂亚。

He is very much what he appears to be from the outside.

从外表上看，他就是这个样子。

I've had plenty of candid private conversations with him and watched him in meetings and stuff like that.

我与他进行过很多坦诚的私人谈话，并在会议和类似的活动中观察过他。

He's a very decent, genuine, honest, high energy, caring individual with a ton of empathy.

他是一个非常正派、真诚、诚实、精力充沛、充满爱心、富有同理心的人。

He's really motivational in a way that is not destructive.

他确实以一种非破坏性的方式激励人心。

He believes very strongly that a leader's job is to raise the energy of the organization and he really lives that.

他坚信领导者的工作就是提高组织的活力，他也确实如此。

And I watch him in meetings where I'm a domain expert and I cannot believe how engaged he is in stuff and how much he understands about something that I know he's not as deep an expert as some of the people in the room are and he's fully in there.

我在会议上观察他，我是一名领域专家，我不敢相信他对事情的投入程度以及他对某些事情的理解程度，我知道他不像房间里的一些人那么深入，但他完全参与其中。

So he is a really incredible leader in many ways.

所以从很多方面来说，他都是一位非常令人难以置信的领导者。

That's one thing.

这是一回事。

Sam Schillace: I think another is that culture is very humble, honestly.

Sam Schillace：我认为另一个原因是文化是非常谦虚、诚实的。

I mean, it's interesting going from Google to Microsoft.

我的意思是，从谷歌到微软的转变很有趣。

And I don't want to draw comparisons or anything like that, but I think there are definitely similarities and differences between the companies.

我不想进行比较或类似的事情，但我认为这些公司之间肯定存在相似之处和不同之处。

And I think one thing that stands out with Microsoft is it's a humble culture.

我认为微软最突出的一点是它有一种谦逊的文化。

It does unglamorous work all the time to make businesses be successful.

为了让企业取得成功，它一直在做一些乏味的工作。

So it's got that sort of mindset of just hard work and humility, which I value a lot.

所以它有一种努力工作和谦逊的心态，这是我非常看重的。

And then I think there's just, I mean honestly, there's just a fantastic number of really talented people working there.

然后我认为，老实说，有大量真正有才华的人在那里工作。

Sam Schillace: It's kind of funny, this year I've been writing a lot of patents, because there's just a lot of stuff going on in the world.

Sam Schillace：这有点有趣，今年我写了很多专利，因为世界上正在发生很多事情。

And I've written more patents this year by a lot than the rest of my career combined.

今年我撰写的专利数量比我职业生涯其余时间的总和还要多。

And I commented on the number.

我对这个数字发表了评论。

I'm like, "I've written 15 patents this year." I commented to the patent attorney that I work with.

我想，“今年我已经写了 15 项专利。”我向与我合作的专利律师发表了评论。

He's like, "Ah, that's nothing.

他说：“啊，没什么。

The chief science officer wrote 700 of them one year during the mobile boom." It's like, whatever you feel about patents, and I don't necessarily love patents, although it's part of my job to write them, but that's the kind of people that are there, these just fantastically talented people with just really deep experience at a lot of different levels.

在移动热潮期间，首席科学官一年就写了 700 篇这样的文章。”就像，无论你对专利有什么看法，我不一定喜欢专利，尽管撰写专利是我工作的一部分，但这就是那里的人，这些人都是非常有才华的人，在很多不同层面上都有非常丰富的经验。

Sam Schillace: I think that's part of it too.

Sam Schillace：我认为这也是其中的一部分。

There's just a lot of really good folks there.

那里有很多非常好的人。

Kevin Scott, who I work for, is one of the smartest...

我为之工作的凯文·斯科特是最聪明的人之一……

He's probably the smartest person I've ever been fortunate to work directly with.

他可能是我有幸直接共事过的最聪明的人。

He's definitely one of the smartest I've ever met.

他绝对是我见过的最聪明的人之一。

He's pretty fantastic.

他非常棒。

And the group around him is pretty fantastic, and the leadership in Windows and Office is pretty fantastic.

他周围的团队非常出色，Windows 和 Office 方面的领导力也非常出色。

So it's just a lot of good people and a lot of good attitude, and a good leader I think is the answer.

所以我认为答案就是有很多优秀的人和很多良好的态度，以及一个优秀的领导者。

And luck.

还有运气。

It's always luck too, right?

这也总是运气好，对吧？

Kevin and Satya made a bet on OpenAI a few years back, and they're doing some extraordinary things with capital raise and the support of that technology and stuff like that.

几年前，Kevin 和 Satya 在 OpenAI 上下了赌注，他们通过融资和技术等的支持做了一些非凡的事情。

That doesn't happen by accident either.

这也不是偶然发生的。

Sam Schillace: I wouldn't know anything there.

Sam Schillace：我在那里什么都不知道。

I hear it's calm.

听说很平静

I stay far away from it as possible, honestly.

老实说，我尽可能远离它。

Lenny: Most under-the-radar startup out there.

Lenny：最不为人所知的初创公司。

Amazing.

惊人的。

Sam, is there anything else you want to share before we get to our very exciting lightning round?

Sam，在我们开始激动人心的闪电回合之前，您还有什么想分享的吗？

Is there anything you want to leave listeners with?

您有什么想留给听众的吗？

Sam Schillace: Mostly I think probably take all of this as more my personal opinions and not Microsoft's official stands.

Sam Schillace：我认为这主要是我个人的观点，而不是微软的官方立场。

This is just me being an engineer.

这只是我作为一名工程师的情况。

I'm not here as a Microsoft representative necessarily.

我不一定是作为微软代表来到这里的。

But yeah, I don't know.

但是，是的，我不知道。

Build stuff, solve problems, build stuff.

构建东西，解决问题，构建东西。

That's what it is, right?

就是这样，对吧？

That Jobs quote-

乔布斯引用的话——

Sam Schillace: Fuck around.

萨姆·席勒斯：操他妈的。

Well, that Jobs quote is right.

嗯，乔布斯的那句话是对的。

The world was built by people just like you.

世界是由像你这样的人建造的。

That's that's the thing.

就是这样。

It's really true.

这是真的。

You don't have to have permission, you just have to have energy.

你不需要获得许可，你只需要有能量。

Lenny: With that, we've reached our very exciting lightning round.

莱尼：这样，我们就进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。

Are you ready?

你准备好了吗？

Lenny: Great answer.

莱尼：很好的答案。

Sam.

萨姆.

What are two or three books that you've recommended most to other people?

您向其他人推荐最多的两三本书是什么？

Sam Schillace: I like weird book.

Sam Schillace：我喜欢奇怪的书。

There's this book called Invisible Cities by Italo Calvino, which is this very beautiful meditation on the nature of cities and the nature of Venice.

伊塔洛·卡尔维诺（Italo Calvino）写了一本名为《看不见的城市》的书，这是对城市本质和威尼斯本质的非常美丽的沉思。

And I read it the first time I was in Italy right after college, and it just blew all the circuits in my brain when I went to Venice, and so that was pretty cool.

大学毕业后我在意大利第一次读到这本书，当我去威尼斯时，它让我大脑中的所有电路都崩溃了，所以这非常酷。

The other one I recommend to people with some caution is this very intense and disturbing book called The Wasp Factory by Ian Banks, which is probably the creepiest and hardest book I've ever read, but it's a very interesting psychological deep dive.

我谨慎地向人们推荐的另一本书是伊恩·班克斯（Ian Banks）写的一本非常激烈且令人不安的书，名为《黄蜂工厂》，这可能是我读过的最令人毛骨悚然、最难的书，但它是一本非常有趣的心理深度探究。

So those are both fiction.

所以这些都是虚构的。

If you're looking for business advice, I think the business advice one is probably, Where Good Ideas Come From, Steven Johnson.

如果您正在寻找商业建议，我认为商业建议可能是史蒂文·约翰逊的《好创意从何而来》。

I really like that book.

我真的很喜欢那本书。

I think some of the stuff about the adjacent possible.

我认为一些关于相邻的事情是可能的。

I think it's an old book now, but I think it's pretty timely still.

我认为它现在已经是一本老书了，但我认为它仍然很及时。

I think he had some good stuff in there.

我认为他里面有一些好东西。

Lenny: What is a favorite recent movie or TV show that you really enjoyed?

莱尼：您最近最喜欢的电影或电视节目是什么？

Sam Schillace: My favorite one right now, my guilty pleasure is watching Gary Oldman be a completely disgusting over-the-hill British spy in Slow Horses, which is pretty fun.

萨姆·席勒斯：我现在最喜欢的一个，我的罪恶感就是看着加里·奥德曼在《慢马》中扮演一个完全恶心的英国间谍，这非常有趣。

And I'm actually having a little fun with the retro monster stuff like Monarch and stuff like that.

事实上，我对像 Monarch 这样的复古怪物玩得很开心。

It's kind of fun to watch.

观看起来很有趣。

I don't know.

我不知道。

I have absolute junk food taste when it comes to media.

当谈到媒体时，我绝对有垃圾食品的味道。

Lenny: Love creepy monsters and bugs.

莱尼：喜欢令人毛骨悚然的怪物和虫子。

Sam Schillace: Shooty science things that blow up a lot.

Sam Schillace：那些爆炸性的科学事物。

I'm not very deep.

我不是很深。

Lenny: By the way, have you seen Scavengers Reign, Scavenger Reigns, Scavenger Reign?

莱尼：顺便问一下，你看过《清道夫统治》、《清道夫统治》、《清道夫统治》吗？

Okay.

好的。

You'd love it.

你会喜欢的。

It's on HBO.

HBO 播出。

It's incredible.

太不可思议了。

It's an animated sci-fi thing, and it's very creepy, slimy, kind of alieny things, and it's so beautiful.

这是一部动画科幻小说，非常令人毛骨悚然、粘糊糊的、有点外星人的东西，而且非常美丽。

Do you have a favorite interview question that you like to ask candidates when you're interviewing them?

在面试应聘者时，您有最喜欢问的面试问题吗？

Sam Schillace: I have one that got banned at Google, and I liked it.

Sam Schillace：我有一个被 Google 禁止的产品，我很喜欢它。

I still think it's a fun question.

我仍然认为这是一个有趣的问题。

It's, how many zeros are at the end of 100 factorial?

问题是，100 的阶乘末尾有多少个零？

And the reason I like it...

而我喜欢它的原因...

Yeah, it's like, you made the face, right?

是的，就像，你做了脸，对吧？

Lenny: Going to ask ChatGPT for this answer.

Lenny：要向 ChatGPT 询问这个答案。

Sam Schillace: Well, here's the thing.

山姆·席勒斯：嗯，事情是这样的。

Well, don't though, because the reason I ask it is, it seems like an unreasonable and impossible answer.

好吧，但不要，因为我问这个问题的原因是，这似乎是一个不合理且不可能的答案。

And if you sit down and think about it a little bit, I'm not going to tell you how to reason through it, but you can figure out the answer to it in a few minutes.

如果你坐下来思考一下，我不会告诉你如何推理，但你可以在几分钟内找出答案。

And so the reason I ask is not to get to the answer.

所以我问的原因不是为了得到答案。

It's because I just want to see how people react when I give them something that seems impossible and unreasonable.

这是因为我只是想看看当我给他们一些看似不可能和不合理的东西时人们会有什么反应。

Sam Schillace: And some people just back off and refuse to engage with it.

Sam Schillace：有些人只是退缩并拒绝参与其中。

And some people are just like, "I don't know, let me roll my sleeves up and see how far I can get in this thing." And if you do that, you can actually get through it.

有些人会说，“我不知道，让我卷起袖子，看看我能在这件事上走多远。”如果你这样做了，你实际上就能度过难关。

And I just think it's interesting, because that's building stuff, right?

我只是觉得这很有趣，因为那是在建造东西，对吧？

That's a good signal of when somebody tells you you can't write a word processor in the browser and you can't do collaboration.

当有人告诉您无法在浏览器中编写文字处理程序并且无法进行协作时，这是一个很好的信号。

Do you roll your sleeves up and deal with it or do you fall over?

你是卷起袖子去应对还是摔倒？

Lenny: And what was the question again?

莱尼：那问题又是什么？

Just to .

只是为了。

Sam Schillace: How many zeros are at the end of 100 factorial in decimal?

Sam Schillace：十进制 100 阶乘末尾有多少个零？

Lenny: And then why did it get banned?

莱尼：那为什么它会被禁止呢？

Sam Schillace: I think it got known, and somewhere...

Sam Schillace：我想这件事已经被人知道了，而且在某个地方......

Actually, the funny thing is, one of their more senior directors, actually he's a SVP now I think, Dave [Bezeras 01:20:51], I interviewed him when he came in, and I asked him that question.

事实上，有趣的是，他们的一位更高级的董事，实际上他现在是高级副总裁，我想戴夫 [Bezeras 01:20:51]，当他进来时我采访了他，我问了他这个问题。

And his response was, "I don't do math.

他的回答是：“我不做数学。

Next question." And so I failed him.

下一个问题。”所以我让他失望了。

I was the veto.

我是否决权。

And they have this policy where...

他们有这个政策...

We're friends now.

我们现在是朋友了。

They have this policy where one veto is actually a good signal.

他们制定了一项政策，其中一票否决实际上是一个很好的信号。

If you're controversial as a candidate, they would take a hard look at you.

如果你作为候选人有争议，他们会认真审视你。

And so my veto may have gotten him higher, because I was like, "I don't know, he wouldn't answer this question.

所以我的否决可能会让他的地位更高，因为我当时想，“我不知道，他不会回答这个问题。

That's a red flag for me, so don't hire him." And he turned out to be a great person.

这对我来说是一个危险信号，所以不要雇用他。”事实证明他是一个伟大的人。

So it's maybe not a good question anyways.

所以无论如何，这可能不是一个好问题。

Lenny: That comes back to one of your other lessons of the best ideas have some people that are just very anti that idea.

莱尼：这又回到了你关于最佳想法的其他教训之一，但有些人却非常反对这个想法。

Lenny: It all circles back.

莱尼：一切都轮回了。

Next question, what is a favorite product you've recently discovered that you really love?

下一个问题，您最近发现并且真正喜欢的最喜欢的产品是什么？

Sam Schillace: My father-in-law and my brother-in-law worked for the American car companies.

Sam Schillace：我的岳父和姐夫在美国汽车公司工作。

And I've never had American cars.

而且我从来没有买过美国车。

I just drive Japanese cars, because I grew up in Detroit and just hated that culture.

我只开日本车，因为我在底特律长大，讨厌那种文化。

And so recently we bought a Ford Mustang Mach-E, the electric Ford Mustang, and I just love the shit out of that car.

最近我们买了一辆福特野马 Mach-E，电动福特野马，我非常喜欢那辆车。

I don't know why.

我不知道为什么。

It's just a really fun car to drive.

这是一辆驾驶起来非常有趣的汽车。

It's very surprising to have this American muscle car that I'm just really...

拥有这辆美国肌肉车真是太令人惊讶了，我真的......

An electric American muscle car that I really like.

我非常喜欢的一辆电动美式肌肉车。

So that's probably the current product I really am enjoying the most right now.

所以这可能是我目前最喜欢的产品。

Lenny: Next question, do you have a favorite life motto that you often repeat to yourself, find useful share with friends or family, either in work or in life?

Lenny：下一个问题，您是否有一条最喜欢的人生格言，您经常对自己重复，并与朋友或家人分享，无论是在工作还是生活中？

Sam Schillace: Virtue from error.

萨姆·席勒斯：从错误中获得美德。

Yeah, I think that's...

是的，我认为那是...

It's become one for me, and the more I say it, the more I like it.

它对我来说已经成为一种，而且我说得越多，我就越喜欢它。

But I just like this idea of, you're going to fuck up, make something from it and be creative with your mistakes.

但我只是喜欢这个想法，你会搞砸，从中创造一些东西，并对你的错误发挥创造力。

I like that a lot.

我非常喜欢这样。

So I think that's at least my current one.

所以我认为这至少是我目前的情况。

Lenny: And say it again, just so people get it.

莱尼：再说一遍，以便人们明白。

Sam Schillace: There's lots of different ways to say it, but I just like, virtue from error, is probably the cleanest way to say it, or from error, virtue.

Sam Schillace：有很多不同的说法，但我只是喜欢，美德来自错误，可能是最干净的表达方式，或者来自错误，美德。

Lenny: Final question.

莱尼：最后一个问题。

Apparently you're the only person who has sold both a company to Google...

显然你是唯一一个将两家公司都卖给谷歌的人......

I like that you already know where I'm going.

我喜欢你已经知道我要去哪里。

Both a company and also 200 pounds of blood sauce.

既是一个公司，又是200斤血酱。

Lenny: Both to Google.

莱尼：都给谷歌。

Tell us the story.

告诉我们这个故事。

Sam Schillace: The story?

萨姆·席勒斯：故事？

So I have a friend who dropped out of the tech industry to start a company up in San Francisco called Boccalone, which was an artisan salumi thing in the Ferry Building.

我有一个朋友退出了科技行业，在旧金山创办了一家名为 Boccalone 的公司，这是一家位于渡轮大厦的手工腊肠店。

And so he'd make blood sausage and stuff.

所以他会制作血肠之类的东西。

So there was this wonderful insane chef back in the day when Google had really high-end cuisine in the campuses, probably like 2005 or something, or no, sorry, probably 2008, something like that.

所以，在 Google 校园内提供真正高端美食的时代，有一位出色的疯狂厨师，可能是 2005 年之类的，或者不，抱歉，可能是 2008 年之类的。

And so my friend Mark shows up.

于是我的朋友马克出现了。

This Chef JC had the word foie gras tattooed onto his knuckles.

这位 JC 主厨的指关节上纹着“鹅肝”一词。

So that's the kind of guy he was, he was just super awesome.

他就是这样的人，他非常棒。

Sam Schillace: And so I had Mark show up to talk to JC about buying some of those products, because I was an investor in that company.

Sam Schillace：所以我让 Mark 来与 JC 讨论购买其中一些产品的事宜，因为我是那家公司的投资者。

And he showed up with a bag of blood sausage that was, he's like, "Here, you should take this one and put it in the refrigerator." And like, "Why?" He's like, "It's dripping." I'm like, "It's all right.

他带着一袋血肠出现，他说，“在这里，你应该把这个放在冰箱里。”就像，“为什么？”他说：“滴下来了。”我想，“没关系。

It's fine." He's like, "It's dripping blood." Because they hadn't got the packaging right.

没关系。”他说：“血在滴下来。”因为他们没有正确包装。

So we showed the blood sausage to JC.

所以我们把血肠拿给JC看。

He cooked some of it up.

他煮了一些。

It was really good, and he was like, "Yeah, that's awesome.

这真的很好，他说：“是的，那太棒了。

I'll buy a couple hundred pounds of it." And so technically, because I was an investor in that company, I sold both the company Writely and 200 pounds of blood sausage to Google, which I think is a unique accomplishment.

我要买几百磅。”从技术上讲，因为我是该公司的投资者，所以我将 Writely 公司和 200 磅血肠卖给了 Google，我认为这是一项独特的成就。

And I would just absolutely love to meet anybody who has also done that.

我非常乐意见到任何也这样做过的人。

We'll have a party.

我们将举办一个聚会。

Lenny: Did you get stock though, for that blood sausage?

莱尼：那血肠你有货吗？

Sam Schillace: No, I did not get stock or anything.

Sam Schillace：不，我没有收到库存或任何东西。

That guy was crazy, at one point...

那家伙一时疯了……

Just a quick JC story.

只是一个简短的 JC 故事。

At one point Google rented some goats to graze the hillside across the way.

有一次，谷歌租了一些山羊在对面的山坡上放牧。

And JC was a very non-politically correct, non-woke kind of guy, and he did not like all the sort of attitude at Google.

JC 是一个非常不政治正确、不清醒的人，他不喜欢谷歌的所有态度。

So when these goats were across the hill, he bought a goat carcass from somewhere else and roasted it over a spit and carried it whole through the line for lunch one day to serve up, just to completely tweak people.

所以当这些山羊到了山那边的时候，他就从别处买了一头山羊尸体，放在烤肉叉上烤，有一天午餐时，他把它整个端到队伍里端上来，只是为了彻底折磨人们。

So that was a different time at Google.

所以那是谷歌的一个不同的时期。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

Sam, that's it.

萨姆，就是这样。

We did it.

我们做到了。

Two final questions.

最后两个问题。

Where can folks find you if they want to potentially follow up on any of this?

如果人们想要跟进此事，可以在哪里找到您？

And then how can listeners be useful to you?

那么听众如何对你有用呢？

Sam Schillace: Well, I have a Substack, which is Sunday Letters From Sam, that I write a letter roughly every Sunday, that I've been doing for about 10 years.

Sam Schillace：嗯，我有一个子堆栈，即 Sam 的周日信件，我大约每个周日都会写一封信，我已经这样做了大约 10 年。

Not that particular...

没那么特别...

Well, I've been writing letters to my engineering team on Sunday since I was the head of engineering at Box, and I think that's 12 years now or something.

嗯，自从我担任 Box 的工程主管以来，我一直在周日给我的工程团队写信，我想现在已经 12 年了。

I just started doing it to keep myself accountable, and people liked it, so I just kept doing it.

我开始这样做是为了让自己对自己负责，人们喜欢它，所以我就一直这样做。

So now I do it in public.

所以现在我在公开场合这样做。

I repost them on LinkedIn.

我将它们重新发布到 LinkedIn 上。

You can find me there.

你可以在那里找到我。

You can message me on LinkedIn if you want to.

如果您愿意，可以在 LinkedIn 上给我留言。

I'm hesitant to give out my personal email address, because this is probably going out to a lot of people and I don't want to get spammed.

我不太愿意透露我的个人电子邮件地址，因为这可能会发送给很多人，而我不想收到垃圾邮件。

Sam Schillace: Last funny story.

萨姆·席勒斯：最后一个有趣的故事。

At Google, my email address at Google got leaked somehow and a spammer...

在谷歌，我在谷歌的电子邮件地址不知何故被泄露，垃圾邮件发送者......

I was a little but notorious during the early days of Writely, and so a spammer used it for what's known as a Joe job, where you send something out, fake emails out, with somebody else's email address as the reply to.

在 Writely 的早期，我有点臭名昭著，所以垃圾邮件发送者将其用于所谓的 Joe 工作，即您发送一些内容，发送虚假电子邮件，并以其他人的电子邮件地址作为回复。

So several hundred million emails went out, and all bounced.

因此，数亿封电子邮件发出后，全部被退回。

And so for a while I had my own Gmail front end server that would filter them out for a couple of weeks until that died down.

所以有一段时间我有自己的 Gmail 前端服务器，可以在几周内过滤掉它们，直到这种情况消失。

Lenny: Let's make sure no one does that to you right now.

莱尼：让我们确保现在没有人对你这样做。

Lenny: You didn't answer the final question.

莱尼：你没有回答最后一个问题。

How can listeners be useful to you other than not doing that, spamming things to you?

除了不向你发送垃圾邮件之外，听众还能对你有什么用处呢？

Sam Schillace: Oh, I guess, the thing I guess I'm interested in is people making interesting progress in the direction of that product vision that I talked about.

Sam Schillace：哦，我想，我感兴趣的是人们在我谈到的产品愿景方向上取得有趣的进展。

Independent action, the UI part of this stuff, generating UI, consuming UI, all that stuff, I think I'm curious about that.

独立操作，这个东西的 UI 部分，生成 UI，消费 UI，所有这些东西，我想我对此很好奇。

I mean, and interesting ideas.

我的意思是，还有有趣的想法。

Anything surprising that seems that you'd like to have somebody pay attention to.

任何令人惊讶的事情，似乎你希望有人关注。

I entertain weird ideas all the time.

我总是有奇怪的想法。

I do my best to entertain weird ideas and live what I preach.

我尽力接受奇怪的想法并实践我所宣扬的。

So if you think you have something that's really resonating that you think you want to have somebody pay attention to, you can connect me.

因此，如果您认为自己有一些真正能引起共鸣的东西，并且希望有人关注，可以联系我。

I'll take a look at it, I'll do my best.

我会看一下，我会尽力的。

I won't look at stuff that's incremental and boring.

我不会看那些渐进且无聊的东西。

It has to be actually interesting and disruptive.

它必须确实有趣且具有颠覆性。

So I don't care.

所以我不在乎。

I'm not going to review the 27th memo writing AI chatbot thing that plugs into Outlook or whatever.

我不会回顾第 27 篇备忘录，其中写的是插入 Outlook 或其他什么的 AI 聊天机器人。

I don't care.

我不在乎。

Lenny: I think that's a final good takeaway, is that's a litmus test for, are you working in something innovative?

莱尼：我认为这是最后一个很好的收获，这是一个试金石，你是否正在从事创新的工作？

Which I think has been a great theme of this conversation.

我认为这是这次谈话的一个重要主题。

Sam Schillace: Yes.

萨姆·席勒斯：是的。

Tell me something that'll piss me off.

告诉我一些会让我生气的事情。

That'd be more...

这样就更...

Lenny: Sam, thank you so much for being here.

莱尼：山姆，非常感谢你来到这里。

Lenny: Bye, everyone.

莱尼：再见，大家。

Thank you so much for listening.

非常感谢您的聆听。

If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.

如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review, as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.

您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。