How to hit revenue targets in a recession | Sahil Mansuri (Bravado)

Sahil Mansuri: It's hard to plan what you should do for all of 2023.

Sahil Mansuri：很难计划 2023 年一整年你应该做什么。

I think the advice that most founders are getting from their boards is when you have limited visibility, you have to plan in the most conservative way.

我认为大多数创始人从董事会得到的建议是，当你的知名度有限时，你必须以最保守的方式进行计划。

On the one hand, of course that's true, you have to be conservative.

一方面，当然这是事实，你必须保守。

But on the other hand, you don't want to be unreasonably conservative because you don't want to be floundering from like, oh, we're screwed to everything's better, to we're screwed, everything's better.

但另一方面，你不想变得不合理的保守，因为你不想陷入这样的困境，哦，我们被搞砸了，一切都更好了，我们被搞砸了，一切都更好了。

Sahil Mansuri: So the way I think about setting up a plan when you have limited visibility and some major headwinds is setting up a really conservative plan and then having milestones, short term milestones that unlock the ability to lean into growth and spend based on hitting those targets.

Sahil Mansuri：因此，当你的能见度有限且存在一些重大阻力时，我考虑制定计划的方式是制定一个非常保守的计划，然后制定里程碑，短期里程碑，以实现基于实现这些目标的增长和支出的能力。

Lenny: Welcome to Lenny's Podcast.

莱尼：欢迎来到莱尼的播客。

I'm Lenny, and my aim here is to help you get better at the craft of building and growing products.

我是莱尼，我的目标是帮助您更好地构建和种植产品。

Today my guest is Sahil Mansuri.

今天我的客人是萨希尔·曼苏里。

Sahil is the CEO and founder of Bravado, which has built the world's largest online sales community of over 300,000 salespeople, and they're now building SaaS products for salespeople.

Sahil 是 Bravado 的首席执行官兼创始人，该公司已经建立了全球最大的在线销售社区，拥有超过 300,000 名销售人员，他们现在正在为销售人员构建 SaaS 产品。

Sahil has one of the most unique perspectives on the art and skill of sales, partly because of the community and the company that he runs, and partly because he was a longtime salesperson himself.

萨希尔对销售的艺术和技巧有着最独特的视角之一，部分原因是他所经营的社区和公司，部分原因是他本人就是一名长期的销售人员。

Lenny: As you'll hear in this episode, he has closed some incredible deals, including a wild story about cold emailing Sheryl Sandberg at Facebook and what that led to.

莱尼：正如您将在本集中听到的那样，他完成了一些令人难以置信的交易，其中包括一个关于在 Facebook 向谢丽尔·桑德伯格（Sheryl Sandberg）发送冷邮件以及由此产生的后果的疯狂故事。

In this episode, we focus on what founders should change and how they do sales during this market downturn, including how you should approach sales quotas, how you should rethink the way you do comp plans for salespeople, how you do forecasting, also why you should refocus on retention and your existing customers, how to improve your sales technique in general no matter what role you're in.

在本期节目中，我们重点关注创始人在市场低迷时期应该做出哪些改变以及他们如何进行销售，包括应如何处理销售配额、应如何重新考虑为销售人员制定薪酬计划的方式、如何进行预测、以及为什么应重新关注保留和现有客户、无论您担任什么角色如何总体上提高销售技巧。

Lenny: As someone without a lot of depth in sales, I always find it fascinating to learn how to get better at sales.

Lenny：作为一个在销售方面没有太多深度的人，我总是觉得学习如何提高销售能力很有趣。

This episode has something for everyone.

这一集适合每个人。

With that, I bring you Sahil Mansuri.

接下来，我为您带来萨希尔·曼苏里 (Sahil Mansuri)。

Hey, Ashley, head of marketing and Flatfile.

嘿，Ashley，营销和 Flatfile 主管。

How many B2B SaaS companies would you estimate need to import CSV files from their customers?

您估计有多少家 B2B SaaS 公司需要从其客户导入 CSV 文件？

Lenny: How many of them screw that up?

莱尼：有多少人把事情搞砸了？

What happens when they do?

当他们这样做时会发生什么？

Ashley: Well, based on our data, about a third of people will consider switching to another company after just one bad experience during onboarding.

阿什利：嗯，根据我们的数据，大约三分之一的人在入职期间经历过一次糟糕的经历后就会考虑跳槽到另一家公司。

So if your CSV importer doesn't work right, which is super common, considering customer files are chock full of unexpected data and formatting, they'll leave.

因此，如果您的 CSV 导入器无法正常工作（这种情况非常常见），考虑到客户文件中充满了意外的数据和格式，他们就会离开。

Lenny: I am 0% surprised to hear that.

Lenny：听到这个消息我感到 0% 惊讶。

I've consistently seen that improving onboarding is one of the highest leverage opportunities for both signup conversion and increasing longterm retention.

我一直认为，改善入职是提高注册转化率和提高长期保留率的最高杠杆机会之一。

Getting people to your aha moment more quickly and reliably is so incredibly important.

让人们更快、更可靠地进入顿悟时刻非常重要。

Ashley: Totally.

阿什利：完全可以。

It's incredible to see how our customers like Square, Spotify and Zora are able to grow their businesses on top of Flatfile, this because flawless data onboarding acts like a catalyst to get them and their customers where they need to go faster.

看到 Square、Spotify 和 Zora 等客户如何能够在 Flatfile 上发展业务，真是令人难以置信，因为完美的数据导入就像催化剂一样，让他们及其客户更快地到达需要的地方。

Lenny: If you'd like to learn more or get started, check out Flatfile at flatfile.com/lenny.

Lenny：如果您想了解更多信息或开始使用，请访问 flatfile.com/lenny 查看 Flatfile。

This episode is brought to you by Merge.

本集由 Merge 为您带来。

Every product manager knows the pain of slowing product velocity when developers struggle to build and maintain integrations with other platforms.

每个产品经理都知道，当开发人员努力构建和维护与其他平台的集成时，产品速度减慢的痛苦。

Merge's unified API can remove this blocker from your roadmap.

Merge 的统一 API 可以从您的路线图中消除这个障碍。

With one API, your team can add over 150 HR, ATS, accounting, ticketing and CRM integrations right into your product.

通过一个 API，您的团队可以将 150 多个 HR、ATS、会计、票务和 CRM 集成直接添加到您的产品中。

You can get your first integration into production in a matter of days and save countless weeks building custom integrations, letting you get back to building your core product.

您可以在几天内首次集成到生产中，并节省构建自定义集成的无数周时间，让您可以重新构建核心产品。

Lenny: Merge's integrations speed up the product development process for companies like Ramp, Drada and many other fast growing and established companies, allowing them to test their features at scale without having to worry about a never ending integrations roadmap.

Lenny：Merge 的集成加快了 Ramp、Drada 和许多其他快速发展的老牌公司的产品开发流程，使他们能够大规模测试其功能，而不必担心永无止境的集成路线图。

Save your engineers countless hours and expedite your sales cycle by making integration offerings your competitive advantage with Merge.

通过 Merge 使集成产品成为您的竞争优势，为您的工程师节省无数的时间并加快您的销售周期。

Visit merge.dev/lenny to get started and integrate up to five customers for free.

请访问 merge.dev/lenny 开始并免费集成最多五个客户。

Sahil, welcome to the podcast.

萨希尔，欢迎来到播客。

Sahil Mansuri: Thanks Lenny.

萨希尔·曼苏里：谢谢莱尼。

Thanks for having me.

谢谢你有我。

Lenny: So we're going to be talking about sales and in particular what you should be adjusting in your company during these very turbulent market conditions.

莱尼：所以我们将讨论销售，特别是在这些非常动荡的市场条件下，您应该在公司中进行哪些调整。

But I thought first it'd be helpful if you just gave a little background on yourself to kind of give folks a sense of why you have such unique insights into the sales world.

但我认为首先，如果你能简单介绍一下自己的背景，让人们了解为什么你对销售世界有如此独特的见解，那会很有帮助。

So maybe just talk about a little bit of your background and then what you do now, the company that you run now.

所以也许只谈谈你的一些背景，然后谈谈你现在所做的事情，你现在经营的公司。

Sahil Mansuri: I've spent my whole career in sales.

Sahil Mansuri：我的整个职业生涯都在从事销售工作。

I started out in sales when I was in college.

我在大学时就开始从事销售工作。

I worked on the Obama campaign.

我曾参与奥巴马竞选活动。

We didn't call it sales, right?

我们不称之为销售，对吧？

We called it turning out the votes or street teamwork or field ops or phone banking, but it was sales.

我们称之为投票、街头团队合作、现场行动或电话银行，但它是销售。

We were just selling the dream, literally the American dream as it were.

我们只是在兜售梦想，实际上是美国梦。

So I've been in some sort of a role where my primary responsibility was to cold call, send emails, have conversations, objection handle, and try to get someone to sign a contract for my entire career.

因此，我一直担任的角色是，我的主要职责是推销电话、发送电子邮件、进行对话、处理异议，并尝试让某人在我的整个职业生涯中签署一份合同。

Sahil Mansuri: I started selling in September of 2008 was my first month with a quota.

Sahil Mansuri：我从 2008 年 9 月开始销售，这是我有配额的第一个月。

So I started selling in the middle of the last financial crisis.

所以我在上次金融危机期间开始销售。

In 2009, the company that I used to do sales for, which is called Meltwater, this company, it's a pretty crazy story.

2009年，我曾经做过销售的公司，叫做Meltwater，这家公司，这是一个相当疯狂的故事。

It's one of the few companies that has made it to $100 million in recurring revenue without a drop of venture funding.

它是少数几家在没有减少风险投资的情况下经常性收入达到 1 亿美元的公司之一。

It's a Norwegian company actually.

其实这是一家挪威公司。

Sahil Mansuri: If I remember correctly, don't quote me on the exact numbers here, but the company had basically gone 10 million to 30 million to 50 million to 70 million, and then in 2009, they went from 70 million to 69 million.

Sahil Mansuri：如果我没记错的话，请不要在这里引用我的确切数字，但该公司基本上已经从 1000 万到 3000 万到 5000 万到 7000 万，然后在 2009 年，他们从 7000 万到 6900 万。

It was the first year that they hadn't not only increased revenue, but revenue had gone down.

这是他们第一年不仅没有增加收入，而且收入还下降了。

In that year, in 2009, I broke the company record for the most sales by any individual person in one year in the history of the company.

那一年，即2009年，我打破了公司历史上个人一年内销售额最高的公司记录。

I say that not out of hubris or out of pride, I say that because I've literally sold in a downturn.

我这么说并不是出于傲慢或骄傲，我这么说是因为我确实是在经济低迷时期卖出的。

In the middle of a recession, I have been an account executive selling, carrying a quota and have been successful in doing it.

在经济衰退期间，我曾担任销售客户经理，持有配额，并取得了成功。

Sahil Mansuri: Then went on to be a sales leader at a bunch of different places, probably most notably at Glassdoor, where I joined as one of the first 20, 25 employees.

Sahil Mansuri：后来在很多不同的地方担任销售主管，其中最著名的可能是 Glassdoor，我是那里最早的 20 到 25 名员工之一。

Was responsible for enterprise sales there.

在那里负责企业销售。

Personally closed Facebook, Google, Amazon, Microsoft, Ford, Visa, Bank of America, JP Morgan, Walmart.

亲自关闭了Facebook、谷歌、亚马逊、微软、福特、Visa、美国银行、摩根大通、沃尔玛。

At its peak, at one point I think Glassdoor had about 100 of the Fortune 500 customers and I'd sold about 60 of them myself.

在其鼎盛时期，我认为 Glassdoor 曾拥有大约 100 名财富 500 强客户，而我自己出售了其中大约 60 名客户。

I've done a lot of selling in my career, also a decent amount of sales management and sales leadership.

在我的职业生涯中，我做过很多销售工作，也做过相当多的销售管理和销售领导工作。

Sahil Mansuri: But really my forte is selling.

Sahil Mansuri：但实际上我的强项是销售。

I love to sell.

我喜欢卖东西。

I love to talk to customers.

我喜欢和顾客交谈。

I love to train salespeople.

我喜欢培训销售人员。

I've been a VP of sales and CRO in a couple different places.

我曾在几个不同的地方担任销售副总裁和首席研究官。

Then for the last five years I've been building a community for salespeople that's called Bravado.

在过去的五年里，我一直在为销售人员建立一个名为 Bravado 的社区。

Bravado is a network of about 300,000 B2B tech sales.

Bravado 是一个拥有约 300,000 名 B2B 技术销售人员的网络。

That's about 50,000 VPs of sales and CROs, about 150,000 account executives, another like 40 to 50,000 SDRs.

大约有 50,000 名销售副总裁和 CRO，大约 150,000 名客户经理，还有 40 到 50,000 个 SDR。

Then the rest of it are kind of customer success, sales engineers, sales ops, sales enablement, et cetera.

剩下的就是客户成功、销售工程师、销售运营、销售支持等等。

Sahil Mansuri: So it's a network that purely focuses on sales, and much akin to your business, I suppose, marries community learning, upskilling, recruiting as this one place that a salesperson can go in order to beat the odds, be successful in their career, find a great job, or hit and crush quota in their role.

Sahil Mansuri：因此，这是一个纯粹专注于销售的网络，我认为与您的业务非常相似，它将社区学习、技能提升、招聘结合起来，成为销售人员可以克服困难、在职业生涯中取得成功、找到一份好工作或达到并打破其角色配额的地方。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

I think that gives a clear picture of why you have such unique insights.

我认为这清楚地说明了您为何拥有如此独特的见解。

I don't know if there's anyone that has such a broad access to so many salespeople and what they're doing, what they're thinking about.

我不知道是否有人能够如此广泛地接触这么多销售人员以及他们在做什么、在想什么。

The core part of the Bravado product, just to make it even clear, is a community or people ask questions, help each other through sales issues, things like that, right?

Bravado 产品的核心部分，只是为了说得更清楚，是一个社区或人们提出问题，互相帮助解决销售问题，诸如此类的事情，对吗？

Sahil Mansuri: Yeah.

萨希尔·曼苏里：是的。

So if you're familiar with Stack Overflow and what that network and community means to engineering, Bravado has a product that's affectionately known as the War Room, which does the same thing.

因此，如果您熟悉 Stack Overflow 以及该网络和社区对工程的意义，那么 Bravado 有一款被亲切地称为 War Room 的产品，它可以做同样的事情。

So you have 50,000 companies, sales teams that are on Bravado.

因此，Bravado 上有 50,000 家公司和销售团队。

We get a realtime pulse of which companies are hitting quota, which ones are missing quota, which sales reps are closing deals with which organizations, which industries are doing better or worse.

我们实时了解哪些公司达到了配额，哪些公司未达到配额，哪些销售代表正在与哪些组织达成交易，哪些行业做得更好或更差。

Sahil Mansuri: So we do get a really interesting perspective within the world of B2B tech sales, to be clear, a really interesting perspective on what's happening in terms of companies and revenue and forecast and quota, which gives us hopefully an opportunity to serve those members and the general tech community at large in terms of how they can beat the odds, especially as we're back to that 2008 crunch that we saw then as well.

Sahil Mansuri：因此，我们确实在 B2B 技术销售领域获得了一个非常有趣的视角，需要明确的是，对于公司、收入、预测和配额方面正在发生的事情，这确实给了我们一个机会，让我们有机会为这些成员和整个技术社区提供服务，帮助他们克服困难，特别是当我们回到 2008 年的危机时。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

Just to put this out there, I'm a very small investor in Bravado.

顺便说一句，我是 Bravado 的一个非常小的投资者。

I'm just a fan of these kinds of companies, community led SaaS tooling.

我只是这类公司、社区主导的 SaaS 工具的粉丝。

I was really impressed with the way you're building and the way you're approaching it.

你们的构建方式和实现方式给我留下了深刻的印象。

Also, I don't have a lot of depth in sales, and so I loved this opportunity to learn about how sales works by participating.

另外，我对销售没有太深入的了解，所以我很喜欢这个机会通过参与来了解销售是如何运作的。

So thank you for letting me join the journey of Bravado.

所以谢谢你让我加入 Bravado 的旅程。

It's a really unique company and I'm excited to see where it all goes.

这是一家非常独特的公司，我很高兴看到它的发展方向。

Lenny: So with this podcast, we were planning to talk about sales.

莱尼：所以通过这个播客，我们计划讨论销售问题。

Initially, it was going to be how to get better at sales, how to be a better salesperson.

最初，我们的目标是如何提高销售水平，如何成为一名更好的销售人员。

But you had this great suggestion that we instead focus more specifically on what founders should change in the coming year knowing the conditions of the market and how things are turbulent and how people are spending less and things like that.

但你提出了一个很好的建议，那就是我们应该更具体地关注创始人在来年应该做出哪些改变，了解市场状况、情况如何动荡以及人们如何减少支出等等。

So we're going to talk about five things that you can do right now to change the way your sales process works starting now for the next year.

因此，我们将讨论您现在可以做的五件事，以改变从现在开始明年的销售流程的工作方式。

The idea is once you listen to this conversation, you can go and do these things immediately with your team.

我们的想法是，一旦您听到这段对话，您就可以立即与您的团队一起做这些事情。

So that sound good?

听起来不错吗？

Sahil Mansuri: Yeah, it sounds great.

Sahil Mansuri：是的，听起来很棒。

I mean, I think, inherent in this conversation will be things that you can do to be better at sales, but I think the way in which you sell has to be different based on market condition.

我的意思是，我认为这次谈话中固有的内容是你可以做一些事情来提高销售水平，但我认为你的销售方式必须根据市场状况而有所不同。

So if we had done this podcast eight months ago or 18 months ago or 28 months ago or 38 months ago, I think we would've had one set of conversation.

因此，如果我们在 8 个月前、18 个月前、28 个月前或 38 个月前制作了这个播客，我想我们就会进行一组对话。

We would've talked about growing top line revenue.

我们会谈论增加收入。

We would've talked about how to get your first 20 customers.

我们会讨论如何获得前 20 位客户。

We would've talked about how to build and scale a sales team.

我们会讨论如何建立和扩大销售团队。

We would've talked about setting quotas and whatnot.

我们会讨论设置配额之类的事情。

Sahil Mansuri: I think that today, the market has shifted because we know that the cost of capital has gone up.

Sahil Mansuri：我认为今天的市场已经发生了变化，因为我们知道资本成本已经上升。

We know that funding has dried up.

我们知道资金已经枯竭。

We know that investors today are only interested in companies that have strong unit economics and have high retention rates.

我们知道，今天的投资者只对单位经济效益强劲且保留率高的公司感兴趣。

Cold prospecting goes down in favor of cross-selling and upselling your existing customer base because it's hard to break into new accounts when companies have budget freezes and hiring freezes and layoffs, and everyone is watching really closely the capital outflow of their business.

冷勘探会减少，有利于交叉销售和追加销售现有客户群，因为当公司预算冻结、招聘冻结和裁员时，很难打入新客户，而且每个人都在密切关注其业务的资本外流。

So your sale strategy has to fundamentally change in order to meet the moment and meet the market to where it is.

因此，您的销售策略必须从根本上改变，才能适应当下并满足市场的需求。

Lenny: Great context setting.

莱尼：很棒的背景设置。

You touched on a few of the things we're going to talk about, so I'm excited to get into it.

你谈到了我们将要讨论的一些事情，所以我很高兴能进入其中。

The first topic I wanted to chat about is forecasting and quotas.

我想聊的第一个话题是预测和配额。

You have some advice on how founders should be thinking about adjusting their forecast plans and their quotas for next year.

您对创始人应如何考虑调整明年的预测计划和配额有一些建议。

Can you talk about that?

你能谈谈吗？

Sahil Mansuri: Yeah, so let's start with some data and then we'll talk about why this matters.

Sahil Mansuri：是的，让我们从一些数据开始，然后我们将讨论为什么这很重要。

So on Bravado, as I mentioned, we have 300,000 members, but only about 200,000 of them.

所以，正如我提到的，在 Bravado 上，我们有 30 万会员，但其中只有大约 20 万。

So about 65% of the network uses a product called the Seller Portfolio.

因此，大约 65% 的网络使用名为“卖家组合”的产品。

The Seller Portfolio is a realtime tracker of how you and your sales team are performing relative to quota.

卖家组合是一个实时跟踪器，可以跟踪您和您的销售团队相对于配额的表现。

You can kind of think of it like mint.com, but instead of being for personal finance, it's for sales.

你可以把它想象成 mint.com，但它不是为了个人理财，而是为了销售。

Based on that, we're able to get a realtime perspective on which companies in specific, and then overall which industries and in which sectors are at or above or below quota.

基于此，我们能够实时了解具体哪些公司，以及哪些行业、哪些部门总体上达到或高于或低于配额。

Sahil Mansuri: So I'll share some stats with you.

Sahil Mansuri：所以我将与您分享一些统计数据。

So in Q3 of this year, so I guess as of last month, in Q3 of this year, 63% of sales reps missed quota, 63%.

所以在今年第三季度，我猜截至上个月，在今年第三季度，63% 的销售代表错过了配额，63%。

That's up from 54% in Q2 and 46% in Q1.

这一比例高于第二季度的 54% 和第一季度的 46%。

So you've basically got 30% more of the sales team missing quota today than you did literally just six months ago.

因此，今天销售团队缺少配额的情况基本上比六个月前多了 30%。

If you broaden that out to a team wide structure, 76% of companies missed their Q3 target.

如果将其扩大到整个团队的结构，就会发现 76% 的公司未能实现第三季度的目标。

76% of companies missed their Q3 target.

76% 的公司未能实现第三季度目标。

That's up from 59% in Q2 and 51% in Q1.

这一比例高于第二季度的 59% 和第一季度的 51%。

So you actually have 33% more companies that are missing target.

所以实际上还有 33% 的公司未达到目标。

Sahil Mansuri: Then at this point, it's gone from being like the occasional company is struggling to pretty much every tech company is struggling.

Sahil Mansuri：那么在这一点上，它已经从偶尔的公司陷入困境变成了几乎所有科技公司都陷入困境。

We would predict, based on the data that we're seeing, that over 80% of companies will miss their Q4 goals.

根据我们所看到的数据，我们预测超过 80% 的公司将无法实现第四季度的目标。

So in a world in which the vast majority of sales reps are missing quota and the even larger vast majority of companies are missing quota and their forecast, that on the one hand explains why you're seeing this bunch of layoffs.

因此，在一个绝大多数销售代表都没有达到配额，甚至更大的绝大多数公司都没有达到配额和他们的预测的世界里，这一方面解释了为什么你会看到这群裁员。

Sahil Mansuri: On the other hand though, it raises the question of what do I do for next year?

Sahil Mansuri：但另一方面，这也提出了一个问题：我明年要做什么？

On the one hand, you don't want to bring down targets too significantly because it's going to raise a lot of red flags in terms of spend and burn and probably meet a lot of really painful decision.

一方面，你不想大幅降低目标，因为这会在支出和烧钱方面引发很多危险信号，并且可能会遇到很多非常痛苦的决定。

On the other hand, it's really hard to have visibility into what the market's going to look like six months, I mean, heck, even like six weeks from now.

另一方面，确实很难了解六个月后市场的情况，我的意思是，哎呀，甚至是六周后的情况。

Things are changing on a realtime basis.

事情正在实时变化。

Sahil Mansuri: Something interesting that we saw is that we have quarterly tracking, but we also have monthly tracking.

Sahil Mansuri：我们看到的一个有趣的事情是我们有季度跟踪，但我们也有每月跟踪。

So something interesting we saw is that from November until March of last year, companies were basically blowing out their quota, sales reps were blowing out their quota.

我们看到的有趣的事情是，从去年 11 月到去年 3 月，公司基本上都用完了他们的配额，销售代表也用完了他们的配额。

All of a sudden everything came to a screeching halt in April, and April, May and June were really tough times.

突然间，一切都在四月戛然而止，四月、五月、六月真是艰难的时期。

You saw that outwardly in the market in terms of layoffs and hiring freezes and such.

你在市场上看到了裁员和招聘冻结等方面的情况。

But we saw it on a realtime basis in terms of percentage to quota and companies missing their target.

但我们实时看到了配额百分比以及公司未达到目标的情况。

Sahil Mansuri: What was interesting is that a bunch of companies then revised down their forecast for the rest of the year, but then companies started beating those forecasts in July, August, September.

Sahil Mansuri：有趣的是，许多公司随后下调了今年剩余时间的预测，但随后公司在 7 月、8 月、9 月开始超出这些预测。

So for a moment there, it actually looked like we might be out of the worst of it, and then came obviously a much maligned double dip recession, which then in October, November, all of a sudden everyone just started missing.

因此，有一段时间，我们实际上看起来可能已经摆脱了最糟糕的情况，然后显然出现了备受诟病的双底衰退，然后在 10 月、11 月，突然间每个人都开始失踪。

Many of your listeners, I would imagine, work at VC backed SaaS companies, so they can, in the comments or whatnot, speak about whether this is also true for them.

我想，你们的许多听众都在风投支持的 SaaS 公司工作，因此他们可以在评论或其他方式中谈论这对他们来说是否也是如此。

Sahil Mansuri: But I would imagine that for most of companies going into the middle to end of September, they probably felt pretty good.

Sahil Mansuri：但我想对于大多数进入 9 月中下旬的公司来说，他们可能感觉不错。

They actually thought like, "Oh, maybe we can actually squeak by in Q3.

他们实际上是这样想的：“哦，也许我们真的可以在第三季度勉强度日。

Maybe we can revise up forecast in Q4.

也许我们可以上调第四季度的预测。

Maybe we can hire into next year and we can go back to growing the way we were for the previous 10 years." Then October was just a bloodbath.

也许我们可以在明年继续招聘，然后我们就可以恢复到前 10 年的增长方式。”然后十月只是一场大屠杀。

On companies that do monthly quotas, 85% of sales reps missed quota in October for their monthly number.

在实行月度配额的公司中，85% 的销售代表在 10 月份未能完成月度配额。

I think it's going to be even higher in November based on what we're seeing.

根据我们所看到的情况，我认为 11 月的价格会更高。

Sahil Mansuri: So again, I share all this information with you to just kind of set the stage on what's happening realtime in the market.

Sahil Mansuri：所以，我再次与您分享所有这些信息，只是为了为市场上实时发生的事情奠定基础。

So given that September felt good, but today we're totally screwed, it's hard to plan what you should do for all of 2023.

因此，考虑到 9 月感觉不错，但今天我们完全搞砸了，很难计划 2023 年全年应该做什么。

I think the advice that most founders are getting from their boards is when you have limited visibility, you have to plan in the most conservative way.

我认为大多数创始人从董事会得到的建议是，当你的知名度有限时，你必须以最保守的方式进行计划。

On the one hand, of course that's true.

一方面，这当然是事实。

You have to be conservative.

你必须保守。

But on the other hand, you don't want to be unreasonably conservative because you don't want to be floundering from like, oh, we're screwed to everything's better, to we're screwed, everything's better.

但另一方面，你不想变得不合理的保守，因为你不想陷入这样的困境，哦，我们被搞砸了，一切都更好了，我们被搞砸了，一切都更好了。

Sahil Mansuri: So the way I think about setting up a plan when you have limited visibility and some major headwinds is setting up a really conservative plan and then having milestones, short term milestones that unlock the ability to lean into growth and spend based on hitting those targets.

Sahil Mansuri：因此，当你的能见度有限且存在一些重大阻力时，我考虑制定计划的方式是制定一个非常保守的计划，然后制定里程碑，短期里程碑，以实现基于实现这些目标的增长和支出的能力。

So here's an example.

这是一个例子。

Let's say that you did $10 million in revenue this year and next year you have no idea what that's going to look like.

假设您今年的收入为 1000 万美元，而明年您不知道会是什么样子。

Maybe you say, "Okay, let's plan like we're going to be down to 9 million.

也许你会说：“好吧，让我们计划一下将人数减少到 900 万。

We're going to lose 10% of revenue next year despite our best efforts because the market's going to be really tough."

尽管我们尽了最大努力，明年我们仍将损失 10% 的收入，因为市场将非常艰难。”

Sahil Mansuri: So that would mean that in Q1 you need to hit 2.5 million in revenue.

Sahil Mansuri：这意味着第一季度的收入需要达到 250 万美元。

Let's say in Q1, if we hit 2.5, then we should revise up our targets for the rest of the year and we can unlock this additional budget to kind of spend off of.

假设在第一季度，如果我们达到 2.5，那么我们应该修改今年剩余时间的目标，并且我们可以释放这笔额外的预算来减少支出。

If we hit below 2, we should revise down our number.

如果低于 2，我们应该下调数字。

So kind of being comfortable with regularly reforecasting.

所以对定期重新预测感到很舒服。

Forecasting, you can't just forecast a quarter out every time.

预测，你不能每次都预测四分之一。

Obviously that's a tough way to run a business.

显然，这是一种艰难的经营方式。

So you got to forecast a year, but then set milestones, checkpoints and kind of make predetermined decisions that allow you to avoid the bias of then walking into Q1 and being like, "Oh, we missed in Q1, but no, no, we're really going to hit it in Q2."

因此，你必须预测一年，然后设定里程碑、检查点并做出预先确定的决定，这样你就可以避免在进入第一季度时产生偏见，“哦，我们在第一季度错过了，但不，不，我们真的会在第二季度实现目标。”

Sahil Mansuri: You got to set the targets upfront because as founders, we tend to have a bias towards optimism.

Sahil Mansuri：你必须提前设定目标，因为作为创始人，我们往往倾向于乐观。

That's generally how founders operate.

创始人通常就是这样运作的。

In today's market, that's more of a disadvantage than an advantage.

在今天的市场上，这与其说是优势，不如说是劣势。

So my suggestion is to really think about forecasting conservatively, setting up checkpoints and milestones around what future success may or may not look like.

因此，我的建议是认真考虑保守预测，围绕未来成功可能会或可能不会的情况设置检查点和里程碑。

If you hit those goals, then decelerating or accelerating into it depending upon what you get there, and coming to an agreement with your board, with your sales team, with your sales leadership in advance so that there's no debate about what to do when you actually get there.

如果你达到了这些目标，那么根据你达到的目标减速或加速实现它，并提前与你的董事会、你的销售团队、你的销售领导达成协议，这样当你真正达到目标时就不会争论该做什么。

Lenny: That is awesome advice.

莱尼：这是很棒的建议。

As a PM, it makes me think a little bit about moving to an agile sprint sort of system versus this long term waterfall oriented planning process.

作为一名产品经理，这让我思考一下转向敏捷冲刺式系统与长期瀑布式规划流程之间的关系。

Have you seen this need happen in the past?

您过去见过这种需求吗？

Is this the first time we need to plan to reforecast throughout the year?

这是我们第一次需要计划全年重新预测吗？

Or have you been through periods where this is just the way people operate when times are super uncertain?

或者你是否经历过这样的时期：当时代非常不确定时，这正是人们的运作方式？

Sahil Mansuri: First of all, I think the vast majority of CEOs and sales leaders haven't been through a period of dramatic uncertainty in their careers.

Sahil Mansuri：首先，我认为绝大多数首席执行官和销售领导者的职业生涯都没有经历过一段剧烈的不确定时期。

I mean, there are obviously people who have been in business for more than 15 years and who have been through other downturns.

我的意思是，显然有些人已经从业超过 15 年，并且经历过其他低迷时期。

But unless you were a sales leader, a CEO, an executive in 2008, which I would imagine that not very many people were or certainly not everyone was, then you haven't seen anything like this.

但除非你是 2008 年的销售主管、首席执行官、高管（我想不是很多人，或者肯定不是每个人），否则你就不会看到这样的事情。

People try to analogize it to COVID, but I think that that's actually not a good analog for this.

人们试图将其与新冠病毒进行类比，但我认为这实际上并不是一个很好的类比。

Sahil Mansuri: The reason why is because COVID was an external factor versus this is actually an internal issue, which is to say that there are actually industries that are doing much better these days except for tech.

Sahil Mansuri：之所以如此，是因为新冠病毒是一个外部因素，而这实际上是一个内部问题，也就是说，除了科技之外，现在实际上有一些行业做得更好。

Tech is getting crushed, right?

科技正在被压垮，对吗？

In COVID, everyone's getting crushed.

在新冠疫情中，每个人都被压垮了。

So it didn't matter if you owned a yoga studio or gas pump or whatever, a hotel.

因此，无论您是否拥有瑜伽馆、加油站或其他酒店、酒店，都没有关系。

There was nothing that was working well unless I guess you owned Amazon Fresh or something.

除非我猜你拥有亚马逊生鲜之类的东西，否则没有什么运作良好的。

There were very few businesses that were doing better as a result of COVID.

很少有企业因新冠疫情而表现得更好。

But there's a bunch of companies that aren't doing that bad.

但有很多公司的表现并没有那么糟糕。

I mean, if you listen to other podcasts, you've probably seen that tech is the one that is getting the most hammered in this, although I think in the last two weeks, crypto has caught up pretty quickly.

我的意思是，如果你听其他播客，你可能会发现科技是在这方面受到最严重打击的，尽管我认为在过去两周里，加密货币已经很快迎头赶上。

Sahil Mansuri: But it's really kind of tech, right?

Sahil Mansuri：但这确实是一种技术，对吧？

So when you see a slowdown in tech that is disproportionate, you have to assume that it may last for a much longer period of time than you imagine.

因此，当你看到科技发展不成比例地放缓时，你必须假设它持续的时间可能比你想象的要长得多。

I think that given the lack of visibility and the amount of volatility, I think it is a unique situation for most companies, for most leaders.

我认为，鉴于缺乏可见性和波动性，我认为对于大多数公司、大多数领导者来说，这是一个独特的情况。

I think that the only response to which is to try to get really comfortable with being wrong and adding new data in in order to make decisions regularly without the fear of coming across as not knowing what you're doing.

我认为对此的唯一反应是尝试真正接受错误并添加新数据，以便定期做出决策，而不必担心被认为不知道自己在做什么。

Lenny: Things seem to have been crazy for a long time.

莱尼：事情似乎已经疯狂了很长一段时间。

It's interesting that this is the first year where you're finding that companies have to do this.

有趣的是，这是你发现公司必须这样做的第一年。

Before we get to the next topic, I wanted to come back to the stats that you had real quick.

在我们进入下一个主题之前，我想快速回顾一下您的统计数据。

Can you talk again about how you get those stats?

您能再谈谈您是如何获得这些统计数据的吗？

Is this like a salesperson plugs into their system somehow in exchange for getting access to the benchmarking?

这是否就像销售人员以某种方式插入他们的系统以换取访问基准测试的机会？

How does that work because that's very cool?

这是如何运作的，因为这非常酷？

Sahil Mansuri: Yeah, exactly.

萨希尔·曼苏里：是的，完全正确。

That's right.

这是正确的。

It's a gift to get model.

这是获得模型的礼物。

So the way it works is that you enter your stats, and in doing so, you get global benchmarks of how you're doing versus other reps or other companies.

因此，它的工作原理是，您输入自己的统计数据，这样您就可以获得与其他代表或其他公司相比的全球基准。

So there's a premium for being accurate here because otherwise you don't actually get a real sense of how you're doing versus others.

因此，在这里保持准确是非常重要的，否则你实际上无法真正了解自己与其他人相比的表现如何。

So there's an incentive structure that's built in to be really precise.

因此，有一个非常精确的内置激励结构。

Then that information feeds into our kind of global leaderboard where we are able to slice and dice and say, "Okay, of companies that are headquartered in San Francisco, here's how your company's doing.

然后，这些信息会输入到我们的全球排行榜中，我们可以在其中进行分类并说：“好吧，在总部位于旧金山的公司中，这就是你们公司的表现。

Of sales reps that sell to CMOs, here's how you're doing.

在向 CMO 进行销售的销售代表中，您的做法如下。

Of reps who carried a quota of between 500, 700K this quarter, here's how you rank." So we do global benchmarking for sales reps and sales teams and we share that information for free to anyone who is willing to participate in the ecosystem.

本季度配额在 500 到 70 万之间的销售代表中，排名如下。”因此，我们为销售代表和销售团队进行全球基准测试，并将这些信息免费分享给任何愿意参与生态系统的人。

Lenny: That is very cool.

莱尼：那太酷了。

I had no idea that was something you did.

我不知道你做了什么。

How do folks join that if they want to join up?

如果人们想加入，如何加入？

Sahil Mansuri: Simple, everything's available for free.

Sahil Mansuri：很简单，一切都是免费的。

Just come to bravado.co and we have something called a Seller Portfolio.

只需访问 bravado.co，我们就有一个叫做“卖家组合”的东西。

Go ahead and build one of those and then enter the information and then you'll start to receive the stats as they come out each quarter.

继续构建其中一个，然后输入信息，然后您将开始收到每个季度发布的统计数据。

Lenny: Sweet.

莱尼：甜甜的。

Okay, second topic, comp plans.

好的，第二个主题，补偿计划。

You have some advice for how teams should think about comp plans for their sales people?

对于团队应如何考虑销售人员的薪酬计划，您有什么建议吗？

What's your advice?

你有什么建议？

Sahil Mansuri: So comp plans are, or compensation plans for sales, are very different than they are for most other profession.

Sahil Mansuri：因此，补偿计划或销售补偿计划与大多数其他职业的补偿计划有很大不同。

So in most professions, yours and product management, you have a base salary that encompasses the vast majority of your cash compensation.

因此，在大多数职业中，无论是你的职业还是产品管理职业，你的基本工资都包含了你的大部分现金报酬。

You then often have bonuses that are either based on company or sometimes personal milestone, which are often paid out end of quarter, end of year.

然后，您经常会获得基于公司或有时基于个人里程碑的奖金，这些奖金通常在季末或年末支付。

Then you'll have an equity grant that you vest over the course of time.

然后，您将获得一段时间后归属的股权授予。

That's not how it works in sales.

这不是销售的运作方式。

Sahil Mansuri: So the way it works in sales is that you have what's known as a base and then what's known as an OET.

Sahil Mansuri：因此，销售中的运作方式是，你拥有所谓的基础，然后是所谓的 OET。

An OTE or on target earnings is how much you make if you hit quota.

OTE 或目标收入是指达到配额后的收入。

The most common ratio that you see in SaaS is what's known as a 50-50 split.

在 SaaS 中最常见的比例是所谓的 50-50 分割。

So let's just use some round numbers.

所以我们只使用一些整数。

Let's say that your OTE is $200,000.

假设您的 OTE 为 200,000 美元。

What that means is that your base salary is actually only $100,000.

这意味着你的基本工资实际上只有 100,000 美元。

So unlike in most other professions, sales reps make very little base salary, but their OTEs are often higher than in most other professions because they're variable, so the second $100,000 you unlock through your performance on the sales team.

因此，与大多数其他职业不同，销售代表的基本工资很少，但他们的 OTE 通常高于大多数其他职业，因为它们是可变的，因此您可以通过在销售团队中的表现解锁第二个 100,000 美元。

Sahil Mansuri: Again, I'm going to use the most common examples for this, and every combines different, et cetera, but what's really common is if you have a 200K OTE, 100K base, 100K commission, then your quota will be $1 million.

Sahil Mansuri：同样，我将使用最常见的示例，每个示例都有不同的组合，等等，但真正常见的是，如果您有 200K OTE、100K 基础、100K 佣金，那么您的配额将为 100 万美元。

So the ratio between your OTE and your quota is typically five to one.

因此，您的 OTE 与配额之间的比例通常为五比一。

So your quota is usually 5X.

所以你的配额通常是5X。

This comes from this idea that your cost for a sales rep fully loaded should be about 20% so you can afford to pay 20% of your salary to a sales rep.

这源于这样的想法：满负荷销售代表的成本应该约为 20%，因此您有能力向销售代表支付工资的 20%。

So let's talk about what that all means.

那么让我们来谈谈这一切意味着什么。

Sahil Mansuri: So what that means is that you as a salesperson have to sell $1 million of software in order to make $200,000 of money.

Sahil Mansuri：这意味着，作为一名销售人员，你必须销售 100 万美元的软件才能赚到 20 万美元。

But that $1 million of software is only around new business.

但这 100 万美元的软件仅用于新业务。

The vast majority of account executives are only responsible for new business, which means top line revenue growth.

绝大多数客户经理只负责新业务，这意味着收入增长。

So let's pick two theoretical examples.

那么让我们选择两个理论上的例子。

Okay, let's say they're sales rep A and sales rep B, and they both have the same quota, same OTE, okay?

好吧，假设他们是销售代表 A 和销售代表 B，他们都有相同的配额、相同的 OTE，好吗？

We're selling for the same product, same sales team.

我们销售相同的产品，相同的销售团队。

Sales rep A closes $1.5 million in 2022.

销售代表 A 到 2022 年将实现 150 万美元的收入。

Just for easy math, let's say that's 15 100K deals.

为了简单计算，我们假设这是 15 10 万笔交易。

So product is 100K.

所以产品是100K。

They sold us 15 deals a year.

他们每年向我们出售 15 笔交易。

They would close $1.5 million.

他们将关闭 150 万美元。

Sahil Mansuri: That means that they would hit 150% of quota.

Sahil Mansuri：这意味着他们将达到配额的 150%。

When that happens, when you exceed your quota, you hit in sales what are known as accelerators.

当这种情况发生时，当你超过配额时，你就会达到所谓的加速器销售。

So it's not like if you hit 1 million, you make 200, but if you hit 1.2 million, you just make an extra on that 200K.

所以，并不是说如果你达到了 100 万，你就赚了 200，但是如果你达到了 120 万，你就可以在这 20 万的基础上多赚一些。

You actually often make extra money for exceeding your quota.

事实上，你经常因为超出配额而赚到额外的钱。

The more you exceed your quota, the more money you make.

超出配额越多，赚到的钱就越多。

So you would imagine that if someone sold 1.5 million, they wouldn't make 300K, which would be 20% cost to sale.

所以你可以想象，如果有人卖出 150 万件，他们就赚不到 30 万件，这将是 20% 的销售成本。

They might make 400K.

他们可能赚 40 万。

That's pretty common in sales.

这在销售中很常见。

Sahil Mansuri: So this person who closed $1.5 million in business from 15 deals ends up making $400,000 and they get taken on a free trip to Cabo because they made President's Club and they're put on the leader board and the CEO of the company gives them an award at the end of the year and they are heralded as the pinnacle of all things that are sales.

Sahil Mansuri：这个人通过 15 笔交易完成了 150 万美元的业务，最终赚了 40 万美元，他们被带去卡波免费旅行，因为他们加入了总统俱乐部，他们被列入排行榜，公司首席执行官在年底给他们颁发了一个奖项，他们被誉为所有销售方面的顶峰。

The VP of sales says, "Wow, I can't wait to clone 10 of you." That's how sales teams are set up, right?

销售副总裁说：“哇，我迫不及待地想克隆 10 个你们。”销售团队就是这样组建的，对吗？

Sahil Mansuri: Then you have sales rep B.

Sahil Mansuri：那么您就有销售代表 B。

Sales rep B only closes 12 deals for 1.2 million.

销售代表 B 仅完成 12 笔交易，金额为 120 万美元。

So they still exceed quota, but they only exceed quota by 20%, not 50%.

所以他们仍然超额，但只超额20%，而不是50%。

That sales rep ends up making let's say 250K.

假设那位销售代表最终赚了 25 万。

So they make $150,000 less money.

因此他们少赚了 15 万美元。

They don't get to go on the trip to Cabo.

他们不能去卡波旅行。

They don't get the award at the end of the year.

他们在年底没有获得该奖项。

They're not the ones that are celebrated or championed and they're seen as a good performer but not as good as team player A.

他们不是那些受到庆祝或拥护的人，他们被视为表现良好，但不如团队成员 A。

That all makes a lot of sense in a world in which companies are really focused on top line growth.

在一个公司真正专注于营收增长的世界里，这一切都非常有意义。

Sahil Mansuri: Nothing is more important than the amount of ARR you're making and how fast you're growing and investors are basically demanding that you go 3, 2, 2, 2, which is common parlance for if you make 5 million this year, you should make 15 million next year, you should make 45 million the year after, and then you can slow down to going 90 then 180.

Sahil Mansuri：没有什么比你赚取的ARR金额和增长速度更重要，投资者基本上要求你达到3、2、2、2，这是常见的说法，如果你今年赚500万，明年你应该赚1500万，后年你应该赚4500万，然后你可以放慢速度到90，然后180。

This is how VCs often think about funding SaaS companies.

这就是风险投资家通常考虑为 SaaS 公司提供资金的方式。

They look for this 3, 3, 2, 2 sort of multiple growth on ARR, new business ARR.

他们在 ARR（新业务 ARR）上寻找这种 3、3、2、2 的多重增长。

That's how the world used to function until six months ago.

直到六个月前，世界都是这样运转的。

Sahil Mansuri: Then six months ago, all of a sudden the music stopped and capital got expensive and everybody started being like, "Whoa, wait a minute.

Sahil Mansuri：六个月前，音乐突然停止了，资本变得昂贵，每个人都开始说，“哇，等一下。

We should think about things like net dollar retention and we should think about what renewal rates look like and we should think about how efficient you are at acquiring customers." All of a sudden, profitability, efficiency, retention came into focus as everybody realized that unprofitable growth was no longer going to be rewarded because you couldn't just keep spending in order to acquire customers.

我们应该考虑诸如净美元保留率之类的事情，我们应该考虑续订率是什么样的，我们应该考虑您在获取客户方面的效率如何。”突然间，盈利能力、效率、保留率成为人们关注的焦点，因为每个人都意识到，无利可图的增长将不再得到回报，因为你不能只是为了获取客户而不断花钱。

Acquiring new customers was going to get harder so retaining the ones you had and making sure they were happy was actually far more important.

获取新客户将变得更加困难，因此留住现有客户并确保他们满意实际上更为重要。

Sahil Mansuri: So let's go back to our example.

Sahil Mansuri：让我们回到我们的例子。

So team player player A who closed 15 deals for 1.5 million, poster child for the company, got $400,000.

因此，团队合作者 A 完成了 15 笔交易，价值 150 万美元，是该公司的典型代表，他获得了 40 万美元。

Let's say out of their 15 customers, 10 of them churn next year and only five of them actually end up renewing.

假设他们的 15 名客户中，有 10 名客户明年会流失，而实际上只有 5 名最终续约。

How much does that affect player A's compensation, their performance, their celebration, et cetera?

这对球员 A 的报酬、他们的表现、他们的庆祝活动等等有多大影响？

Doesn't affect them at all.

完全不影响他们。

Make no difference.

没有什么区别。

99% of SaaS companies are set up this way, right?

99%的SaaS公司都是这样成立的吧？

Every SaaS company of, with very small exceptions, HubSpot, monday.com, there's a handful of them, except for very few SaaS companies, no difference to the salesperson's performance.

每个SaaS公司，除了极少数的例外，HubSpot、monday.com，都有少数，除了极少数SaaS公司，销售人员的表现没有任何区别。

It's seen as a failure of customer success.

这被视为客户成功的失败。

Other people get blamed for it.

其他人因此受到指责。

Sales rep, no change in their comp work or their success.

销售代表的薪酬工作或成功没有变化。

Sahil Mansuri: Meanwhile, sales rep B who closed fewer deals, 12 of them.

Sahil Mansuri：与此同时，销售代表 B 完成的交易较少，共 12 笔。

Let's say all 12 renew, and not only do all 12 renew, but let's say that three of them actually are so happy with the product and service that they're willing to be featured on your website as the folks that you advertise.

假设所有 12 个都续订，不仅是所有 12 个续订，而且假设其中三个实际上对产品和服务非常满意，以至于他们愿意作为您广告中的人出现在您的网站上。

Let's say six of them are actually willing to be references.

假设其中有六个人实际上愿意成为推荐人。

So they help you close even more business by getting on the phone with prospective customers and are willing to actually advocate for your product.

因此，他们通过与潜在客户通电话来帮助您完成更多业务，并且愿意实际宣传您的产品。

Let's say that not only do they renew, but four of them actually upsell because they're so happy they end up spending more and they sign multi-year contracts and whatnot.

假设他们不仅续约，而且其中有四个人实际上进行了追加销售，因为他们很高兴最终花更多的钱，并且签署了多年合同等等。

Sahil Mansuri: How much did that affect sales rep B's performance?

Sahil Mansuri：这对销售代表 B 的绩效有多大影响？

Do we go back and revise and say, "Well, wait a minute.

我们是否会回去修改并说：“好吧，等一下。

Actually sales rep B's customers were way better and actually we should probably have rewarded sales rep B because they actually had done the homework of finding the right clients instead of just shoving product down people's throats." No, none of that happens.

事实上，销售代表 B 的客户要好得多，实际上我们应该奖励销售代表 B，因为他们实际上已经做好了寻找合适客户的功课，而不是仅仅将产品强行塞给人们。”不，这些都不会发生。

Again, that kind of made sense up until six months ago, but it makes no sense today.

再说一遍，直到六个月前这还是有意义的，但今天就毫无意义了。

So sales comp plans are stuck in the stone ages.

因此，销售补偿计划陷入了石器时代。

They're stuck in the world of Glengarry Glen Ross, Boiler Room, Wolf of Wall Street, get the dollar in through the door, Matthew McConaughey .

他们被困在《格伦加里·格伦·罗斯》、《锅炉房》、《华尔街之狼》的世界里，把美元从门里拿进来，马修·麦康纳。

That's where sales comp plans are.

这就是销售补偿计划的所在。

Sahil Mansuri: What we haven't done is built a modern technical sales compensation plan that actually aligns the needs and incentives of the business, the customer and the rep.

Sahil Mansuri：我们还没有做的是建立一个现代的技术销售薪酬计划，该计划实际上可以调整业务、客户和销售代表的需求和激励措施。

So I think that for a while there, I mean, I've been writing and talking about this for years, for a while there it fell on a lot of deaf ears because no one cared.

所以我认为，有一段时间，我的意思是，我多年来一直在写作和谈论这个问题，有一段时间，很多人都充耳不闻，因为没有人关心。

People care now because all of a sudden for the first time, all of the things that we're talking about around retention and renewal rates and stuff are coming up.

人们现在关心的是，因为我们第一次谈论的所有关于保留率和续订率的事情都突然出现了。

So I would say that my general advice to companies is to say what are the metrics that matter and ensuring that those metrics are the ones that your sales team is rewarded for.

所以我想说，我对公司的一般建议是说出重要的指标是什么，并确保这些指标是您的销售团队获得奖励的指标。

Sahil Mansuri: I also call into question the notion that your sales team should have a 50-50 split on compensation.

Sahil Mansuri：我还对销售团队应按 50 比 50 分配薪酬的观点提出质疑。

By the way, that doesn't just extend to the sales team.

顺便说一句，这不仅仅适用于销售团队。

That's often how the VP of sales is compensated.

销售副总裁通常就是这样获得报酬的。

So your executive, your chief revenue officer, your VP of sales who sits at the same table as your CMO and your CFO and your COO, that person also has a 50-50 split in most cases.

因此，你的高管、首席营收官、销售副总裁与你的 CMO、CFO 和 COO 坐在同一张桌子上，在大多数情况下，这个人也有 50-50 的分配。

Sometimes it's 60-40, but it's very rarely 90-10, which is what it is for almost every other executive on your team.

有时是 60-40，但很少是 90-10，这几乎是团队中所有其他高管的情况。

Sahil Mansuri: So salespeople get labeled as coin operated and mercenaries and all these other adages because the way we compensate them, the way we treat them, the way we measure them is in a mercenary sort of way.

Sahil Mansuri：因此，销售人员被贴上了投币式和雇佣兵的标签，以及所有其他格言，因为我们补偿他们的方式、我们对待他们的方式、我们衡量他们的方式都是一种唯利是图的方式。

Again, I would call on founders and VCs and executives to rethink that and to instead come up with compensation that aligns the incentives, again, of the customer, the business and the rep and the leader.

我再次呼吁创始人、风险投资家和高管重新考虑这一点，并提出与客户、业务、代表和领导者的激励相一致的薪酬。

So I think that setting up a longer horizon where if the customer you sign up today ends up renewing tomorrow, the rep should get a kicker on it.

因此，我认为，设定一个更长的期限，如果您今天注册的客户最终在明天续订，那么代表应该对此感到兴奋。

Sahil Mansuri: We should look at what the overall renewal rate is of the sales rep comparing it of course to the renewal of the rest of the business.

Sahil Mansuri：我们应该看看销售代表的整体续约率是多少，当然将其与其他业务的续约率进行比较。

If one rep is doing a better job of qualifying the right customers upfront, they should be rewarded for that.

如果一名销售代表在预先筛选合适的客户方面做得更好，他们应该因此而获得奖励。

So things like that I think are missing from sales compensation and I'm excited to see them come to the front this year.

因此，我认为销售薪酬中缺少类似的东西，我很高兴看到它们今年脱颖而出。

Lenny: As an outsider, this all sounds very obvious like this is how it should work.

Lenny：作为一个局外人，这一切听起来都很明显，就像它应该如何运作一样。

I imagine a reason it doesn't is it adds complexity and then there's this feedback loop that's a lot longer because you have to wait to see if they renew.

我想它不这样做的一个原因是它增加了复杂性，然后这个反馈循环要长得多，因为你必须等待看它们是否更新。

So two questions that I guess.

我猜有两个问题。

One is you're saying that it works companies are doing it this way.

一是你说公司这样做是有效的。

You mentioned a few, HubSpot, monday.com.

你提到了一些，HubSpot，monday.com。

Are there others that folks can look at to model how they could approach it this way?

人们还可以参考其他方法来模拟如何以这种方式实现这一目标吗？

Then is there any other reason that folks haven't rethought the way comp plans work?

那么还有其他原因导致人们没有重新考虑薪酬计划的运作方式吗？

Is it just like, "Nah, it's working, we don't have to break it"?

是不是就像“不，它正在工作，我们不必破坏它”？

Sahil Mansuri: I'll answer the second question first because the answer to the first question is really simple.

Sahil Mansuri：我首先回答第二个问题，因为第一个问题的答案非常简单。

I think that there is a lack of transparency around how a lot of sales compensation plans work and companies tend to make it up as they go along.

我认为许多销售薪酬计划的运作方式缺乏透明度，而且公司往往会在实施过程中进行弥补。

Oftentimes companies change their comp plans like each month, each quarter based on whatever is the business unit or the goal of the business.

通常，公司会根据业务部门或业务目标每月、每个季度更改薪酬计划。

So I've seen things like, oh, company release product B after only selling product A.

所以我见过这样的事情，哦，公司在只销售产品 A 后就发布了产品 B。

So we'll double the commission on product B because we want to get it in people's hands.

因此，我们将把产品 B 的佣金加倍，因为我们希望将其交到人们手中。

Or we really want to target CPG customers so CPG customers are worth extra commission.

或者我们真的想瞄准 CPG 客户，这样 CPG 客户就值得额外的佣金。

Sahil Mansuri: So companies tend to weigh down comp plans with basically a bunch of bullshit that doesn't have anything to do with how the compensation plan should be structured, but just has to do with the whims of the executives and the board that month or that quarter.

Sahil Mansuri：因此，公司往往会用一堆废话来压低薪酬计划，这些废话与薪酬计划的结构无关，而只是与高管和董事会当月或该季度的突发奇想有关。

So I don't know of any organizations I think do this excellently.

所以我不知道有哪个组织在这方面做得很好。

I just know a lot of companies that do it better than most.

我只知道很多公司在这方面做得比大多数公司都好。

I think it depends on your company or business and your incentive.

我认为这取决于您的公司或业务以及您的动机。

But I would say that in today's economy, taking a longer term view to a sales compensation, instead the short term, like you're a hunter, your job is just to close deals and doesn't really matter, a dollar is a dollar no matter where it comes from is not true anymore.

但我想说，在今天的经济中，从长远的角度来看待销售报酬，而不是短期的，就像你是一个猎人，你的工作只是完成交易，并不重要，一美元就是一美元，无论它来自哪里，这已经不再是事实了。

Sahil Mansuri: So I guess that's the answer to that.

Sahil Mansuri：所以我想这就是答案。

Coming back to the other question though, which is why are sales comp plans not innovated off of because this seems obvious?

回到另一个问题，这就是为什么销售补偿计划没有创新，因为这似乎是显而易见的？

First of all, it's obvious because of how I explained it.

首先，从我的解释来看，这是显而易见的。

I'm not taking credit for it.

我不会因此而居功。

It's just that I'm giving you a lot of context that you would not get otherwise, right?

只是我给了你很多否则你不会得到的背景，对吧？

The context you would get otherwise if you just walked in and you got your traditional old school VC and CEO doesn't really know what they're doing and just listening to their board is like, here's how sales comp plans work, right?

否则，如果你刚走进去，传统的老派风投和首席执行官并不真正知道他们在做什么，只是听董事会的意见，那么你会得到的背景是，这就是销售补偿计划的运作方式，对吗？

Sahil Mansuri: You want to grow revenue, you want to get customers, you got to pay top dollar and you got to fire them up and set aggressive quotas and you got to push them and you want to put these big spiffs out there because that's how salespeople work.

Sahil Mansuri：你想要增加收入，你想要吸引客户，你必须支付高价，你必须激发他们并设定激进的配额，你必须推动他们，你想要把这些大的东西放在那里，因为这就是销售人员的工作方式。

A founder doesn't know.

创始人不知道。

This is the problem is that people don't know because nobody really understands sales and salespeople.

问题是人们不知道，因为没有人真正了解销售和销售人员。

They just kind of are like, "Well, I can't sell and I don't really want to do that.

他们只是有点像，“好吧，我不能卖，而且我真的不想这样做。

So I'm just going to hire this 50 year old white guy who's done this at a bunch of different companies and then have him bring in because it's always a 50 year old, it's always a white person and it's always a guy, right?"

所以我会雇佣这个 50 岁的白人，他在很多不同的公司做过这件事，然后让他进来，因为它总是一个 50 岁的人，总是一个白人，而且总是一个男人，对吧？”

Sahil Mansuri: Sales is one of the least diverse professions when it comes to leadership and it's one of the things that we really champion here at Bravado is this idea that 92% of sales leaders or VPs of sales are white.

Sahil Mansuri：就领导力而言，销售是最不多元化的职业之一，而我们在 Bravado 真正倡导的事情之一就是 92% 的销售领导者或销售副总裁是白人。

Over 85% of sales leaders are white.

超过 85% 的销售领导者是白人。

So is that representative of the total population of who should be a sales leader?

那么，这是否代表了应该成为销售领导者的总人口呢？

No, of course not.

不，当然不是。

It's just representative of the fact that like, oh, you don't want to innovate here.

这只是代表这样一个事实：哦，你不想在这里创新。

Just hire someone who's been there, done that before.

只要雇用一个曾经在那里做过的人就可以了。

Sahil Mansuri: So you get a lot of sludge in the system.

Sahil Mansuri：所以系统中会产生大量污泥。

You get a lot of people doing the same shit over and over again even though it doesn't work, which is kind of the opposite of that Einstein quote, right?

很多人一遍又一遍地做同样的事情，即使它不起作用，这与爱因斯坦的名言正好相反，对吧？

So founders don't know how to set comp plans.

所以创始人不知道如何制定薪酬计划。

They are just listening to what other people tell them should be the way they do it.

他们只是听别人告诉他们应该如何做。

There's a way it's done and it's really hard to break that.

有一种方法可以做到这一点，而且很难打破它。

It's kind of like when you talked about waterfall versus agile.

这有点像你谈论瀑布与敏捷时一样。

Once you do agile you're like, "Wait, why would we have ever done it the other way?" Well, it's because everyone was always doing it that way, et cetera, et cetera.

一旦你实施了敏捷，你就会想，“等等，为什么我们要用其他方式来做呢？”嗯，这是因为每个人总是这样做，等等，等等。

No one ever got fired for buying IBM, et cetera.

没有人因为购买 IBM 等公司而被解雇。

You get where I'm going.

你明白我要去的地方。

Sahil Mansuri: But the other thing Lenny that I think is problematic is everyone loves to optimize in the short run when it comes to revenue in sales.

Sahil Mansuri：但我认为莱尼有问题的另一件事是，在销售收入方面，每个人都喜欢在短期内优化。

That's really I think the other big driver.

我认为这确实是另一个重要的推动因素。

If I offered you a plan that said, hey, you can grow by 20% revenue quarter over quarter or we can spike revenue by 75% this quarter though I don't know what that's going to do to the business in the future.

如果我向你提供的计划是：嘿，你可以将收入季度环比增长 20%，或者我们可以将本季度的收入增长 75%，尽管我不知道这会对未来的业务产生什么影响。

Which of these do you want?

您想要其中的哪一个？

Tell me how many founders really are willing to take option A?

告诉我有多少创始人真正愿意采取选项 A？

What do you think?

你怎么认为？

Sahil Mansuri: Let's say I just told you those were your options.

Sahil Mansuri：假设我刚刚告诉你这些是你的选择。

I can figure out a way to increase revenue by 75% this quarter though I can give you no promise as to what that means for the future.

我可以找到一种方法，使本季度的收入增加 75%，但我无法向您保证这对未来意味着什么。

Or I can make you a plan where we increase revenue 20% quarter over quarter for the next six quarters.

或者我可以为您制定一个计划，在接下来的六个季度中，我们的收入将季度环比增长 20%。

Which of those two plans would you sign up for?

您会签署这两个计划中的哪一个？

What do you think is a percentage of startup founder six months ago, eight months ago, 10 months ago to indefinitely that would've signed up for plans?

您认为六个月前、八个月前、十个月前甚至无限期的初创公司创始人中签署计划的比例是多少？

Lenny: Yeah, it's interesting.

莱尼：是的，这很有趣。

Hearing you describe the way it should be structured and then hearing you pitch this.

听你描述它的结构方式，然后听你推销它。

I would definitely pick goal one.

我肯定会选择目标一。

Let's grow.

让我们成长吧。

Let's get this.

让我们得到这个。

It'll work out, it'll work its way out.

它会解决的，它会解决问题的。

We'll figure it out later.

我们稍后会弄清楚。

Let's just keep new customers coming in.

让我们不断吸引新客户进来。

So I don't know.

所以我不知道。

I guess like 99% probably choose that first one.

我猜 99% 的人可能会选择第一个。

Sahil Mansuri: Yeah, I think that's right.

Sahil Mansuri：是的，我认为这是对的。

Well, I mean that is right because that's what everyone signed up for.

嗯，我的意思是这是正确的，因为这是每个人都注册的。

But then all of a sudden, and again, that was okay because even if all your customers churned, it didn't matter because you could just go raise more money based on the growth and then just keep pouring more money on it, more money on it.

但突然间，这又没关系，因为即使你所有的客户都流失了，也没关系，因为你可以根据增长筹集更多资金，然后继续投入更多资金，更多资金。

No one gave a shit about the leaky bucket, right?

没有人关心漏桶，对吧？

Because you could just keep adding more water at the top.

因为你可以在顶部继续添加更多的水。

Now all of a sudden the faucet's off.

现在水龙头突然关了。

Sahil Mansuri: So given this seismic change in the market, how is it that we can reverse the short term thinking and start to actually build good businesses?

Sahil Mansuri：鉴于市场发生了巨大变化，我们如何才能扭转短期思维并开始真正建立良好的业务？

Because I think that's the real problem, right?

因为我认为这才是真正的问题，对吧？

The real problem isn't sales compensation plans and quotas.

真正的问题不是销售补偿计划和配额。

That's a symptom.

这是一个症状。

A real problem is we all just wanted to have hyper growth instead of thinking are we actually building good businesses.

一个真正的问题是，我们都只是想实现高速增长，而不是思考我们是否真正建立了良好的业务。

I wouldn't say that we at Bravado were immune from this by the way.

顺便说一句，我不会说我们 Bravado 可以免受这种情况的影响。

It's not like I'm sitting here on my golden throne pontificating to the masses.

我并不是坐在我的黄金宝座上对大众武断。

Sahil Mansuri: We made a bunch of decisions over the course of growing this business that were incentivized for the short term.

Sahil Mansuri：在发展这项业务的过程中，我们做出了一系列短期激励的决定。

Every single time we did that, it ended up being really expensive.

每次我们这样做时，最终都会变得非常昂贵。

Now, sometimes we caught that before money ran out and before we saw the problem.

现在，有时我们在钱用完之前和看到问题之前就发现了这一点。

Sometimes we didn't and then we were like, "Oh, shit.

有时我们没有，然后我们就像，“哦，该死。

It's a fire drill." But at the end of the day, there is no replacement for building a product that customers love and having a great go to market motion that brings that product and that value to your clients and ensuring that they actually are thrilled that they bought your product and are getting a lot of value from it.

这是一次消防演习。”但归根结底，没有什么可以替代构建客户喜爱的产品，并通过良好的市场营销行动将产品和价值带给您的客户，并确保他们真正为购买您的产品并从中获得很多价值而感到兴奋。

Sahil Mansuri: Yeah, it sounds so simple, but the amount of companies that actually don't really care if their customers get value from their product versus just measuring top line revenue growth numbers and logos and whatever is I think more meaningful than people are willing to admit.

Sahil Mansuri：是的，这听起来很简单，但实际上有很多公司并不真正关心客户是否从他们的产品中获得价值，而只是衡量收入增长数字和徽标以及我认为比人们愿意承认的更有意义的东西。

Lenny: Today's episode is brought to you by Miro.

莱尼：今天的节目是米罗为您带来的。

Creating a product, especially one that your users can't live without is damn hard.

创建一款产品，尤其是一款让用户离不开的产品是非常困难的。

But it's made easier by working closely with your colleagues to capture ideas, get feedback, and being able to iterate quickly.

但通过与同事密切合作来捕捉想法、获得反馈并能够快速迭代，事情会变得更容易。

That's where Miro comes in.

这就是米罗登场的地方。

Miro is an online visual whiteboard that's designed specifically for teams like yours.

Miro 是一款在线可视白板，专为像您这样的团队而设计。

I actually use Miro to come up with a plan for this very ad.

实际上，我使用 Miro 为这则广告制定了计划。

With Miro, you can build out your product strategy by brainstorming with sticky notes, comments, live reactions, voting tools, even a timer to keep your team on track.

借助 Miro，您可以通过便签、评论、实时反应、投票工具甚至计时器进行集思广益，从而制定您的产品策略，让您的团队保持在正轨上。

Lenny: You can also bring your whole distributed team together around wire frames where anyone can draw their own ideas with a pen tool or put their own images or mock-ups right into the Miro board.

Lenny：您还可以将整个分布式团队围绕线框聚集在一起，任何人都可以使用钢笔工具绘制自己的想法，或者将自己的图像或模型直接放入 Miro 板上。

With one of Miro's ready-made templates, you can go from discovery and research to product roadmaps to customer journey flows to final mocks.

使用 Miro 的现成模板之一，您可以从发现和研究到产品路线图、客户旅程流程再到最终模拟。

Want to see how I use Miro?

想看看我如何使用 Miro？

Head on over to my Miro board at miro.com/lenny to see my most popular podcast episodes, my favorite Miro templates.

前往 miro.com/lenny 上的我的 Miro 板，查看我最受欢迎的播客剧集、我最喜欢的 Miro 模板。

You can also leave feedback on this podcast episode and more.

您还可以留下对此播客剧集等的反馈。

That's M-I-R-O.com/lenny.

那是 M-I-R-O.com/lenny。

Lenny: That's a great segue to the third topic, which is around retaining your existing customers and putting more focus on that versus top line, or yeah, new growth.

莱尼：这是第三个主题的一个很好的延续，第三个主题是围绕保留现有客户并更加关注现有客户而不是顶线，或者是的，新增长。

Do you have some thoughts on just how to do that and why that's so important?

您对如何做到这一点以及为什么如此重要有一些想法吗？

Sahil Mansuri: Let's start here, which is cold call, cold email response rates have never been lower.

Sahil Mansuri：让我们从这里开始，这是冷电话、冷电子邮件回复率从未如此低。

Never been lower.

从来没有这么低过。

I think you're seeing this across every sales team.

我认为您在每个销售团队中都看到了这一点。

Again, if you're listening to this and you have a sales team, you know what I'm saying is true.

再说一次，如果您正在听这个并且您有一个销售团队，您就会知道我说的是真的。

Top of funnel pipeline is drying fast faster than our planet's drying up in fact.

事实上，漏斗管道顶部的干燥速度比地球的干燥速度还要快。

Enterprise sales cycles are just getting longer and longer.

企业销售周期变得越来越长。

We are lucky to have a couple of investors who have really, really broad exposure to the tech market.

我们很幸运有几个投资者，他们对科技市场有着非常非常广泛的投资。

Everything from really large public IPOs all down to small startups.

从大型公开募股到小型初创企业，一切应有尽有。

Sahil Mansuri: In conversations with them, they've been really clear that they're seeing this incredible, the average enterprise sales cycle is 62 days, it's now like 115 days or something.

Sahil Mansuri：在与他们的交谈中，他们非常清楚地表明他们看到了令人难以置信的情况，平均企业销售周期是 62 天，现在大约是 115 天左右。

So customers are dragging their feet, everything's going to no decision, no decision typically means I'm not going to say yes now because I don't want to spend the money.

所以顾客们都在拖延，一切都没有决定，没有决定通常意味着我现在不会答应，因为我不想花钱。

I actually like the thing but I'm not going to buy it.

我其实很喜欢这个东西，但我不会买。

Which means the same thing for you as a business, which is that you're not making any money.

这对你作为一个企业来说意味着同样的事情，那就是你没有赚到任何钱。

Sahil Mansuri: So in a world in which you can't sell to new customers, your only hope is to keep the ones you got for long enough to survive and then hopefully even maybe be able to upsell and cross-sell those customers into new products, as well as potentially leverage those customers to get warm intros into a potential new business.

Sahil Mansuri：因此，在一个你无法向新客户销售产品的世界里，你唯一的希望就是将现有客户保留足够长的时间以生存，然后甚至希望能够向这些客户追加销售和交叉销售新产品，并有可能利用这些客户来热情地介绍潜在的新业务。

Psychologically, when times are tough people hoard, people keep their things close and people trust the safety of those they know versus those they don't.

从心理上来说，当困难时期人们会囤积东西，人们会把东西放在身边，人们会相信认识的人而不是不认识的人的安全。

This is basic human psychology, right?

这是人类的基本心理吧？

Sahil Mansuri: So given that that's the case, if you're a company that doesn't have a lot of customers and you're trying to go out to market and sell your product, you're in a lot of trouble.

Sahil Mansuri：鉴于这种情况，如果您是一家没有很多客户的公司，而您正试图进入市场并销售您的产品，那么您就会遇到很多麻烦。

If you are a company that has a large customer base and you've done a shitty job of engaging, retaining, maintaining relationships with them and prioritized top of line growth, this is your alert.

如果您是一家拥有庞大客户群的公司，并且您在吸引、保留、维护与他们的关系以及优先考虑顶级增长方面做得很糟糕，那么这就是您的警报。

This section is for you.

本节适合您。

Because what you should be doing, I will tell you the most dramatic thing you could do and then we can kind of work backwards.

因为你应该做什么，我会告诉你你能做的最戏剧性的事情，然后我们可以倒着做。

Take your best sales people and make them CSMs.

挑选最优秀的销售人员，让他们成为 CSM。

There's no point.

没有意义。

There's no point in having your best salespeople sell.

让最好的销售人员进行销售是没有意义的。

Sahil Mansuri: Well, what's the point if people aren't going to buy anyway?

Sahil Mansuri：好吧，如果人们无论如何都不会购买，那还有什么意义呢？

If they do, they're going to buy in onesie, twosies, not these big enterprise deals.

如果他们这样做，他们会购买连体衣、两件套，而不是这些大型企业交易。

No one's going to sign these big accounts right now.

现在没有人会签署这些大帐户。

Who in tech today is like, "Wow, I can't wait to sign a multi-year contract with a new vendor we've never tried." Right?

如今的科技界人士会说：“哇，我迫不及待地想与我们从未尝试过的新供应商签订一份多年期合同。”正确的？

Nobody's doing that.

没有人这样做。

If people are signing things, they're signing for three month pilots or kind of like all sort...

如果人们签署协议，他们会签署三个月的试点或类似的协议......

I mean, the deal sizes are coming down, et cetera.

我的意思是，交易规模正在下降，等等。

I mean, this is all very common.

我的意思是，这很常见。

Make your best sales people CSMs and be like, "Your job is to make sure that all these great customers we have never, ever, ever leave."

让你最好的销售人员成为 CSM，就像这样，“你的工作是确保我们永远、永远、永远不会离开所有这些伟大的客户。”

Lenny: CSM is a customer success manager?

Lenny：CSM 是客户成功经理吗？

Sahil Mansuri: Thank you.

萨希尔·曼苏里：谢谢。

Sorry, sorry.

对不起，对不起。

I'm too jargony.

我太行话了。

Thank you.

谢谢。

So typically most sales orgs are divided into pre-sales and post-sales.

因此，通常大多数销售组织分为售前和售后。

Pre-sales worked with companies that are not yet customers to get them to sign up.

售前部门与还不是客户的公司合作，让他们注册。

Post-sales works with companies that have already signed up to help them either find value or retain or renew or upsell.

售后与已经签约的公司合作，帮助他们发现价值、保留、续约或追加销售。

That's how most sales orgs are divided.

这就是大多数销售组织的划分方式。

Typically, you put your best people in pre-sales because it's harder.

通常，您会将最优秀的人员放在售前部门，因为这比较困难。

It's harder to sell a new customer than retain the one you have.

推销新客户比留住现有客户更难。

That's always the case because you got to actually be able to build trust, build the relationship, evangelize something that they haven't bought before.

情况总是如此，因为你必须真正能够建立信任，建立关系，传播他们以前没有购买过的东西。

Sahil Mansuri: So you typically take your best talent and put it in pre-sales, and then you take the people who are really good relationship builders and really caring and nurturing and not necessarily the people who are the most gifted at creating value or whatnot and you put them in CSM.

Sahil Mansuri：所以你通常会把最优秀的人才投入到售前，然后你把那些真正善于建立关系、真正关心和培养的人（不一定是最有创造价值或诸如此类的天赋的人）投入到 CSM 中。

That's obviously a huge generalization because I know many CSMs who are much better at sales and new business.

这显然是一个巨大的概括，因为我认识很多 CSM，他们在销售和新业务方面更擅长。

In many businesses, it's actually harder to be a CSM because the product isn't very good.

在许多企业中，成为 CSM 实际上更难，因为产品不是很好。

So you actually have to do a lot of selling even after the product is sold.

因此，即使产品售出后，您实际上也必须进行大量销售。

So that was a big generalization.

所以这是一个很大的概括。

But it is, in broad strokes, true.

但从广义上讲，这是真的。

Sahil Mansuri: I would take your best account executives, pre-sales reps and I'd put them into CSM.

Sahil Mansuri：我会挑选最好的客户主管、售前代表，并将他们放入 CSM。

I'd say it doesn't matter how much new business we work on in the next six to nine months because it's going to be hard anyway.

我想说，未来六到九个月我们开展多少新业务并不重要，因为无论如何都会很困难。

But what we cannot under any circumstances do is lose our existing customers because replacing them is going to be impossible.

但在任何情况下我们都不能失去现有的客户，因为替换他们是不可能的。

So it's kind of like you got your leaky bucket, you got to patch that leak really, really fast and really hard.

所以这有点像你的水桶漏水了，你必须非常非常快、非常努力地修补这个漏洞。

I think putting your best people on it is one good way to start.

我认为让最好的人来参与是一个很好的开始。

Sahil Mansuri: Now, there's a lot of people who are going to listen to this and think that's crazy.

Sahil Mansuri：现在，很多人听到这个并认为这很疯狂。

Why would I take my best performer in a tough market and move them to post-sale?

为什么我要在艰难的市场中把表现最好的人转移到售后？

This is bad advice.

这是个坏建议。

Maybe.

或许。

Maybe it's bad advice.

也许这是个坏建议。

I can't predict the future anymore than anyone else can.

我比其他人更无法预测未来。

But I can tell you it's what we're doing.

但我可以告诉你，这就是我们正在做的事情。

I can tell you I'm actually doing it.

我可以告诉你我确实在这么做。

We're taking our best people and are moving them into CSM at Bravado.

我们正在将最优秀的人才转移到 Bravado 的 CSM。

We're trying to maintain every customer we have because I believe that doing so sets us up for the best chance of success in the business.

我们正在努力维护我们拥有的每一位客户，因为我相信这样做可以为我们在业务中获得成功提供最好的机会。

Maybe you disagree with that and you think that that's not right for you.

也许您不同意这一点，并且认为这不适合您。

You should do what's right for your business.

您应该做适合您业务的事情。

Sahil Mansuri: But I would say that it's not just talk, it's action.

Sahil Mansuri：但我想说，这不仅仅是说说而已，而是行动。

I'm doing it.

我正在做。

I'm also telling every one of my portfolio, I do a decent amount of angel investing, I'm telling everyone of my portfolio companies to do the same thing.

我还告诉我的投资组合中的每一家公司，我进行了大量的天使投资，我告诉我的投资组合中的每一家公司都做同样的事情。

Discussing the same thing with our investors, with our board as well.

与我们的投资者和董事会讨论同样的事情。

Sahil Mansuri: Okay so you put your best people on it.

Sahil Mansuri：好的，所以你派了最好的人来做这件事。

What else should you?

你还应该做什么？

So I think that what often goes underserved is the opportunity to help your customers themselves survive.

因此，我认为，帮助客户自身生存的机会往往得不到充分服务。

I don't know.

我不知道。

What's a good product example?

什么是好的产品示例？

Let's take something like a analytics product.

让我们以分析产品为例。

Let's pick on Amplitude or Mixpanel or pick your favorite.

让我们选择 Amplitude 或 Mixpanel，或者选择您最喜欢的。

If I was a company like that and I was like, "Okay, don't know how many new customers I may be able to sell, but I've got a lot of really good customers I want to keep." I would invest a tremendous amount of energy into helping product managers and product leaders get benchmarks and stats on how other product teams, what changes they're making.

如果我是一家这样的公司，我会想，“好吧，不知道我能卖掉多少新客户，但我想保留很多非常好的客户。”我会投入大量的精力来帮助产品经理和产品领导者获得有关其他产品团队的表现以及他们正在做出哪些改变的基准和统计数据。

Sahil Mansuri: Because the advantage you have as a vendor, this is advantage we have in sales as Bravado, but it's the advantage that every vendor has is you get a cross=section of what everyone who fits a certain ICP is doing at the same time.

Sahil Mansuri：因为你作为供应商拥有的优势，这就是我们作为 Bravado 在销售方面拥有的优势，但每个供应商都拥有的优势是你可以了解每个符合特定 ICP 的人同时在做什么。

How good are you at extracting value out of that and finding ways of becoming less of a tool as part of the SaaS stack and more of a value added advisor that can help you actually plan and prepare for what to do next.

您是否擅长从中提取价值，并找到方法，减少作为 SaaS 堆栈一部分的工具，而更多地成为可以帮助您实际规划和准备下一步行动的增值顾问。

I think most companies are not good at it.

我认为大多数公司都不擅长这一点。

They put out a white paper for lead gen.

他们发布了一份关于潜在客户开发的白皮书。

I want to put out a white paper for customer retention.

我想发布一份用于保留客户的白皮书。

Sahil Mansuri: One thing that we're actually doing is we're basically saying to all of our clients, "Hey, we'll tell you what percentage of companies that look like you are hiring or not hiring.

Sahil Mansuri：我们实际上正在做的一件事是，我们基本上对所有客户说：“嘿，我们会告诉你，看起来像你的公司正在招聘或没有招聘的公司比例有多少。

I'll tell you how they're adjusting quotas.

我会告诉你他们是如何调整配额的。

I'll tell you how they are changing their comp plans.

我会告诉你他们是如何改变他们的补偿计划的。

I'll tell you how much they're paying.

我会告诉你他们付了多少钱。

I'll tell you what percentage of their sales teams' hitting quota, et cetera, if you stick around with us as a client." I'm not just placing sales reps and say we make our business as a recruiting marketplace.

如果您继续作为我们的客户，我会告诉您他们的销售团队达到配额的比例是多少，等等。”我不只是放置销售代表并说我们将我们的业务打造成一个招聘市场。

So we help companies hire salespeople.

因此，我们帮助公司雇用销售人员。

Obviously that's slowed down tremendously because people are scared to hire and spend money right now.

显然，这种速度已经大大放缓，因为人们现在不敢雇用和花钱。

Sahil Mansuri: But if they're getting insights on what's happening in the market, that's still valuable.

Sahil Mansuri：但如果他们能够深入了解市场上正在发生的事情，那仍然很有价值。

That's still something that they can't get elsewhere that I am uniquely positioned to offer to my customer base.

这仍然是他们在其他地方无法获得的东西，而我拥有独特的优势可以为我的客户群提供这些东西。

What are you uniquely positioned to offer to your customer base?

您有什么独特的优势可以为您的客户群提供什么？

Let's pick another example that I think is really easy which is Greenhouse or Lever or another app and tracking system.

让我们选择另一个我认为非常简单的例子，即 Greenhouse 或 Lever 或其他应用程序和跟踪系统。

If you're an ATS and all of a sudden every recruiting budget's getting slashed and recruiters are getting laid off faster than any other department because no one's hiring, et cetera, you're probably at the most risk of being ripped out or being downsized or getting downward pressure to your .

如果你是 ATS 的一员，突然间所有招聘预算都被削减，招聘人员比任何其他部门都被解雇得更快，因为没有人在招聘等等，那么你可能面临被解雇、被裁员或面临下行压力的最大风险。

Sahil Mansuri: Can you do that nobody else can do in order to give your customers a really good insight into how they should navigate thinking about hiring versus layoffs versus headcount versus burn per department, et cetera?

Sahil Mansuri：您能否做到其他人无法做到的事情，以便让您的客户真正深入了解他们应该如何思考招聘与裁员、员工人数与每个部门的烧钱等问题？

You've got some really interesting data, don't you?

你有一些非常有趣的数据，不是吗？

You know exactly how many customers have paused, how many roles and whatnot.

您确切地知道有多少客户已暂停、有多少角色等等。

If I was Greenhouse, I would be putting out all kinds of reports that tell me, let's use me as a customer here, "Hey, of series B companies that have roughly 50 employees, they used to have eight open head count, but now they're down to four.

如果我是 Greenhouse，我会发布各种报告，告诉我，让我们把我当作这里的客户，“嘿，在拥有大约 50 名员工的 B 轮公司中，他们过去有 8 名空缺员工，但现在减少到了 4 名。

The main area that they're investing are X, Y, and Z.

他们投资的主要领域是 X、Y 和 Z。

Salaries are moving up and down."

工资在上下浮动。”

Sahil Mansuri: You could get a lot of insight from a company like Greenhouse.

Sahil Mansuri：您可以从像 Greenhouse 这样的公司获得很多见解。

Then I'd be like, "Whoa, this is so valuable.

然后我会说：“哇，这太有价值了。

I can't live without this data because this is actually helping guide my business decisioning." I think moving from a world where you're just focused on how can I jam product down your throat to how do I use my unique perspective in the customer segment we serve in order to create broader insights for the industry is something I would heavily prioritize.

没有这些数据我就活不下去，因为这实际上有助于指导我的业务决策。”我认为，从一个只关注如何将产品塞进你喉咙的世界，转向如何在我们服务的客户群中利用我独特的视角，以便为行业创造更广泛的见解，这是我优先考虑的事情。

I'd take my product marketing team and I'd kind of shift them to be my research team.

我会把我的产品营销团队转变为我的研究团队。

I'd take a data analyst or two and stick them on the project and start to create content that is exclusive for my customers and have them see that as another point of value that they can get that would maybe help stay off chart.

我会带一两个数据分析师，让他们参与这个项目，开始为我的客户创建专属内容，让他们看到这是他们可以获得的另一个价值点，这可能有助于保持领先地位。

Lenny: I love that advice.

莱尼：我喜欢这个建议。

Be helpful.

乐于助人。

Find ways to be helpful even if your core product isn't...

即使您的核心产品不是……也要找到有用的方法

Basically go above and beyond what you're already doing as a software product and find ways to help your companies be more successful.

基本上超越您作为软件产品已经做的事情，并找到帮助您的公司取得更大成功的方法。

Feels like there's just a ton of nuggets you just shared.

感觉就像您刚刚分享了很多金块。

I want to make sure we also get to this other topic that I think is also going to have a lot of great nuggets, which is around just advice for closing deals in this time.

我想确保我们也讨论另一个主题，我认为这个主题也将有很多有价值的内容，这只是关于这次完成交易的建议。

You touched on a couple of these, warm intros, a couple things.

你谈到了其中的一些，温暖的介绍，一些事情。

Anything else you could share of just ways to increase the rate at which you close deals during this wild time in the market?

您还可以分享什么其他方法来提高在市场疯狂时期完成交易的速度吗？

Sahil Mansuri: This is a good segue because it'll bridge us back to where you just came from and hopefully move us forward, which is warm intros.

Sahil Mansuri：这是一个很好的转折，因为它会将我们带回您刚刚来自的地方，并希望推动我们前进，这是一个温暖的介绍。

So if cold outreach is going to be less effective, then what increases in efficacy in this time is, again, warm intros.

因此，如果冷漠的外展效果会减弱，那么这次增加效果的就是热情的介绍。

So one thing you got to remember as a more general statement is that companies either grow or they die.

因此，作为一个更普遍的说法，你必须记住的一件事是，公司要么成长，要么消亡。

There are no middle.

没有中间的。

There's no, "Oh, we're going to cut burn and just try to survive the winter long enough so that..." That doesn't work, right?

没有，“哦，我们要减少烧伤，并努力度过冬天足够长的时间，以便......”这行不通，对吧？

Because employees get demoralized, investors lose faith, the days become long and the nights become longer and eventually you just run out of energy as a business.

因为员工士气低落，投资者失去信心，白天变得漫长，夜晚变得更长，最终你的企业就会耗尽精力。

Sahil Mansuri: I think startups in particular are effectively energy driven.

Sahil Mansuri：我认为初创企业尤其是有效的能源驱动型企业。

The more energy, the more belief, the more momentum that you have, the more tailwinds you have, the more things grow and feel possible.

你的能量越多，信念越多，你拥有的动力越多，你拥有的顺风越多，你就越能成长并感觉有可能。

But of course if you look at the odds empirically, no startup should never begin because the odds are you're going to fail.

但当然，如果你凭经验观察可能性，任何初创公司都不应该开始，因为你很可能会失败。

That failure meets you in the eye over and over again as you're shrinking the size of your team, as you're shrinking the size of your budget, as you're doing fewer things and you're taking things away.

当你缩小团队规模、缩减预算、减少做事、拿走东西时，这种失败会一次又一次地出现在你的眼前。

Sahil Mansuri: So I don't really believe in this like, oh, we are just going to survive mentality.

Sahil Mansuri：所以我不太相信这种“哦，我们只是要生存下去”的心态。

I think you have to adjust, of course.

当然，我认为你必须调整。

I think you have to be a realist.

我认为你必须是一个现实主义者。

I'm not suggesting that you be blind to reality.

我并不是建议你对现实视而不见。

I'm just suggesting you also have to keep the energy going.

我只是建议你也必须保持精力充沛。

So what I mean by keeping the energy going is to say, "Okay, let's get..." So here's a couple ideas.

所以我所说的保持能量的意思是说，“好吧，让我们开始……”所以这里有一些想法。

First is let's cut a bunch of stuff but keep some money that we're going to invest in doing an in-person customer event.

首先，让我们削减一些东西，但保留一些我们将投资举办面对面客户活动的资金。

Okay, why do I think that's a good idea?

好吧，为什么我认为这是个好主意？

Sahil Mansuri: I think it's a good idea because, first of all, we've all been stuck in our houses for a couple years and so when we get a chance to go on a trip for free somewhere, we tend to say yes.

Sahil Mansuri：我认为这是一个好主意，因为首先，我们都被困在自己的房子里好几年了，所以当我们有机会免费去某个地方旅行时，我们往往会说“是”。

That's nice.

那很好。

Secondly, I think that you could be strategic and maybe have the trip be for customers only and in February or something.

其次，我认为你可以采取战略性的行动，也许只为客户安排这次旅行，而且是在二月或其他时间。

So maybe you survive the budget cuts this year because people are like, "Well, I got this great trip and I really don't want to miss it.

所以，也许你能在今年的预算削减中幸存下来，因为人们会说，“好吧，我得到了这次很棒的旅行，我真的不想错过它。

Is there a way we can just keep this tool on?" You might think, "Oh, well, are you bribing customers or whatever?"

有没有办法让我们继续使用这个工具？”您可能会想，“哦，好吧，您是在贿赂客户还是其他什么？”

Sahil Mansuri: I mean, it's just psychology.

Sahil Mansuri：我的意思是，这只是心理学。

I think you have to use psychology to your advantage.

我认为你必须利用心理学来发挥你的优势。

I would do a big customer event in February, invite all my current customers and say, "Hey, as long as you're still a customer as of Feb 10, 2023, you're invited to this all paid trip to Napa to go drink a bunch of wine for a week." I bet that would probably meaningfully change your churn rate.

我会在 2 月份举办一场大型客户活动，邀请所有现有客户并说：“嘿，只要您在 2023 年 2 月 10 日之前仍然是客户，我们就会邀请您参加纳帕的全付费旅行，为期一周喝一堆酒。”我敢打赌这可能会有意义地改变你的流失率。

Yeah, it's not going to change everything but it'll change something.

是的，它不会改变一切，但会改变一些东西。

I bet it would.

我打赌会的。

Because at the end of the day, people are people.

因为归根结底，人就是人。

Sales is done by people.

销售是由人来完成的。

It's a belly to belly human sport.

这是一种腹部对腹部的人类运动。

It's not just lines of code on a piece of paper.

它不仅仅是一张纸上的几行代码。

Sahil Mansuri: You got to talk to another human, which is what makes it hard and unscalable and more of an art than a science.

Sahil Mansuri：你必须与另一个人交谈，这使得它变得困难和不可扩展，并且更像是一门艺术而不是一门科学。

But also makes it really fun because it just plays by different rules, a different set of rules than many other things do.

但也让它变得非常有趣，因为它只是遵循不同的规则，与许多其他事物不同的一组规则。

Recruiting being the other thing that is this.

招聘是另一件事。

So in-person customer event.

所以是面对面的客户活动。

The other reason why I like in-person customer events is because they're a perfect opportunity for you to get new deals done.

我喜欢面对面的客户活动的另一个原因是，它们是您完成新交易的绝佳机会。

So how does that work?

那么它是如何运作的呢？

Does that mean I also invite prospects to the event?

这是否意味着我也邀请潜在客户参加该活动？

Sahil Mansuri: No, actually I wouldn't do that.

Sahil Mansuri：不，实际上我不会那样做。

So I think a lot of companies do this where they'll invite customers and prospects to the same event.

所以我认为很多公司都会这样做，他们会邀请客户和潜在客户参加同一活动。

They're like, "Oh, commingle and sell each other." Not the smartest way to do it.

他们就像，“哦，混合并互相出售。”这不是最聪明的方法。

You want only customers in the event and you want to use that again to share thought leadership and such.

您只需要客户参与活动，并且您希望再次利用它来分享思想领导力等。

But then, during all the happy hours and the lunches and the late evenings and whatnot where you start to say, "Hey look, in this market you're finding value in our product.

但是，在所有的欢乐时光、午餐和深夜以及诸如此类的时候，你会开始说：“嘿，看，在这个市场上，你会发现我们产品的价值。

Who are one or two other folks that you know in the same position as yourself that might also find value?

您认识的一两个与您处境相同的人也可能会发现价值吗？

Who do you know that has the same problem?

你知道谁有同样的问题吗？

Who do you know that's going through this?

你认识谁正在经历这一切？

Who do you know that might benefit from this research paper, et cetera?"

您认识谁可能会从这篇研究论文等中受益？”

Sahil Mansuri: You just start collecting a bunch of warm interest.

Sahil Mansuri：你刚刚开始收集大量热情的兴趣。

But then you don't just stop at getting the name because a lot of teams stop here.

但你不能仅仅停留在获得名字上，因为很多团队都停在这里。

They'll basically get the name and then they'll be like, "Okay, got the name.

他们基本上会得到名字，然后他们会说，“好吧，得到名字了。

Now I'm done." Actually not the right way to do it.

现在我完成了。”实际上不是正确的做法。

You get the name and you say, "Great, can you make me an e-intro?

当你知道名字后，你会说：“太好了，你能为我制作一个电子简介吗？

Actually even better.

实际上甚至更好。

Can you connect me over text?" So one tip that I have for all founders, all sales leaders, everyone out there, stop using email.

你能通过短信联系我吗？”因此，我向所有创始人、所有销售领导者和所有人提出一个建议，停止使用电子邮件。

Email is where deals go to die.

电子邮件是交易失败的地方。

Text message is where deals get done.

短信是达成交易的地方。

Sahil Mansuri: So this notion that I'm going to e-intro you over email and that's how we connect is just far worse than the thing that I would really recommend, which I do all the time.

Sahil Mansuri：因此，我将通过电子邮件向您进行电子介绍，这就是我们联系的方式，这种想法比我真正推荐的事情要糟糕得多，我一直在这样做。

We have a Webflow as a customer.

我们有一个 Webflow 作为客户。

I love Webflow.

我喜欢网络流。

I know their sales leadership.

我了解他们的销售领导力。

We try to do a really good job for them.

我们尽力为他们做好工作。

Anytime that their sales leader mentions a company that might be needing to hire or whatnot, my only response is, "Great, connect me over text." Then I get the text intro with the person.

每当他们的销售主管提到一家可能需要招聘或诸如此类的公司时，我唯一的反应就是，“太好了，通过短信联系我。”然后我会收到此人的文字介绍。

Sahil Mansuri: Here's the other fun part.

Sahil Mansuri：这是另一个有趣的部分。

I don't take the introer off the thread.

我不会把介绍人从线程中删除。

So the other thing we tend to do is we CC the person who responded, but in text you don't need to do that.

因此，我们倾向于做的另一件事是抄送回复者，但在文本中您不需要这样做。

You can keep the person on a little bit and it holds the person's feet to the fire to actually show up for the meeting.

你可以让这个人保持一点活力，这样他就可以真正出席会议。

Again, it's these little things, right?

再说一遍，都是这些小事，对吧？

2% here, 3% here.

这里2%，这里3%。

This is how you win in this economy.

这就是你在经济中获胜的方式。

You got to do all the things right.

你必须把所有的事情都做对。

So you keep the person on the thread long enough so that you've actually built that relationship for the first call, obviously not forever.

因此，您可以让该人在线程中保持足够长的时间，以便您实际上在第一次通话时就建立了这种关系，但显然不是永远。

But in the first 10, 20 messages, I'd keep the person on.

但在前 10、20 条消息中，我会让对方继续通话。

Sahil Mansuri: That allows you to ensure that the person goes to you, which happens a lot, I'm sure you know.

Sahil Mansuri：这可以让你确保这个人会去找你，这种情况经常发生，我相信你知道。

You get an intro and the person never responds or they cancel on you.

你得到一个介绍，但对方从来没有回应或者他们取消了你的联系。

You can't get back on their calendar.

你无法回到他们的日历上。

You stay with them.

你和他们呆在一起。

This happened recently where I got introed from one sales leader to another and that sales leader basically then had a family or legit situation but then got busy and was like, "I'm not taking this thing." But I just kept pinging into that group every week or two for actually nine weeks.

最近发生了这种情况，我从一位销售领导者介绍给另一位销售领导，这位销售领导基本上有家庭或合法的情况，但后来变得很忙，就像，“我不会接受这件事。”但我只是每隔一两周就进入该小组，实际上持续了九周。

Then by two and a half months later, the person finally is like, "I'm so sorry, et cetera." Only after my original contact was like, "Yo, you're making me look bad here."

两个半月后，这个人终于说：“我很抱歉，等等。”直到我最初的接触就像是，“哟，你让我在这里看起来很糟糕。”

Sahil Mansuri: So that pressure is what forced...

Sahil Mansuri：所以压力是迫使......

Then we got them as a customer and now things are good.

然后我们把他们作为客户，现在一切都很好。

So it just takes all that.

所以它只需要这一切。

It takes those little things.

需要这些小事。

You got to build a bridge from your current customer base to future customers and parlay the goodwill, relationship, et cetera that you've earned in serving your current customers to get new ones.

您必须在当前客户群和未来客户之间建立一座桥梁，并利用您在服务当前客户时获得的商誉、关系等来吸引新客户。

Because otherwise, I don't think it's just relying on a bunch of SDRs and cold emails and stuff is going to get you through the next six to 12 months.

因为否则的话，我不认为仅仅依靠一堆特别提款权和冷邮件之类的东西就能让你度过接下来的六到十二个月。

Lenny: I love that tip.

莱尼：我喜欢这个建议。

Feel like there's probably more nuggets.

感觉可能还有更多的金块。

I'm going to keep fishing in this well of tactical advice for closing deals.

我将继续汲取达成交易的战术建议。

Is there anything else that you've found?

您还有其他发现吗？

I love that texting tip.

我喜欢那个发短信的技巧。

I feel like I've been on the end of that one.

我觉得我已经走到了那一步的尽头。

It works great.

效果很好。

So yeah.

所以是的。

Sahil Mansuri: From me.

萨希尔·曼苏里：来自我。

Yeah, that's right.

是的，没错。

That's right.

这是正确的。

For example, I didn't have your phone number and I told my wife, "Make sure you take a selfie with Lenny and then send a text message to the three of us on one grad so that I know how to get a hold of Lenny in case he calls.".

例如，我没有你的电话号码，我告诉我的妻子，“一定要和莱尼拍一张自拍照，然后给我们三个毕业生发短信，这样我就知道如何联系莱尼，以防他打来电话。”。

Sahil Mansuri: Here we are now.

Sahil Mansuri：我们现在到了。

That's right.

这是正确的。

But the point is sales when done well doesn't feel weird, okay?

但重点是，如果销售做得好，就不会让人感觉奇怪，好吗？

If it ever feels weird, you're a bad salesperson, right?

如果感觉很奇怪，那么你就是一个糟糕的销售人员，对吧？

I've been selling now for 14 years.

我从事销售工作已经 14 年了。

I've sold literally hundreds, millions of dollars worth of deals.

我已经卖出了价值数百、数百万美元的交易。

I could pretty much call any customer I've ever sold to and have a conversation with them and it would say, "How's it going?" Whatever.

我几乎可以打电话给我曾经销售过的任何客户并与他们交谈，他们会说：“进展如何？”任何。

That's because I put a tremendous amount of energy into investing and building a real friendship, not relationship, not business, friendship with the people that I sell to.

那是因为我投入了大量的精力来投资和与我的销售对象建立真正的友谊，而不是关系，不是生意，而是友谊。

Sahil Mansuri: So I'll tell you a couple of sales stories and maybe from that we can mine the nuggets that you're fishing for.

Sahil Mansuri：所以我会告诉你几个销售故事，也许我们可以从中挖掘出你正在寻找的金块。

I will tell you about how I sold to Facebook when I was at Glassdoor.

我会告诉你我在 Glassdoor 时是如何向 Facebook 出售产品的。

This is a fun story.

这是一个有趣的故事。

So Facebook was the Moby Dick of Glassdoor.

所以 Facebook 就是 Glassdoor 的莫比迪克。

I think the first time they tried to sell to them was end of 2008 or something like that.

我想他们第一次尝试出售给他们是在 2008 年底或者类似的时候。

Facebook was one of those accounts that obviously should be on Glassdoor because the way Glassdoor's product worked is that the more people that came to your company page on Glassdoor, the more value there was for you as a recruiting firm to put branding and to put jobs and whatnot.

Facebook 显然是应该在 Glassdoor 上开设的帐户之一，因为 Glassdoor 产品的运作方式是，访问 Glassdoor 上的公司页面的人越多，对于招聘公司来说，投放品牌、投放职位等的价值就越大。

Sahil Mansuri: Facebook was the most visited page on Glassdoor.

Sahil Mansuri：Facebook 是 Glassdoor 上访问量最大的页面。

So by virtue of that, it was the best account to sell to.

因此，它是最好的销售账户。

It had gone from CEO to VP of sales to new VP of sales to rep to rep, et cetera.

它从首席执行官到销售副总裁，再到新的销售副总裁，再到销售代表，等等。

I finally got my hands on it Feb of 2011.

我终于在 2011 年 2 月拿到了它。

The only reason I got my hands on it is because I closed Microsoft.

我接触到它的唯一原因是我关闭了微软。

I think I closed both Microsoft and Google at that point.

我想我当时关闭了微软和谷歌。

But certainly at least Microsoft.

但至少肯定是微软。

Certainly at least Microsoft.

当然至少是微软。

Well, it's important to the story, not to brag.

嗯，重要的是故事，而不是吹牛。

Sahil Mansuri: So I looked at it and I looked at who we are talking to, Lori Goler, who's the chief talent.

Sahil Mansuri：所以我看了看我们正在和谁交谈，Lori Goler，他是首席人才。

I think she's still the head of talent there, but was the head of talent who we had pitched and every time we got the same response, "No, we are not interested in outside partnership at the time.

我认为她仍然是那里的人才主管，但她是我们推销的人才主管，每次我们都得到同样的回应，“不，我们当时对外部合作伙伴关系不感兴趣。

No, we are not interested." I think she had a canned response for all vendors and it was just the same response in the CRM over and over again.

不，我们不感兴趣。”我认为她对所有供应商都有一个预设的回复，而且在 CRM 中一遍又一遍地重复着同样的回复。

So again, Einstein, right?

再说一遍，爱因斯坦，对吧？

Same thing over and over again, different result.

同样的事情重复一遍，却有不同的结果。

Sahil Mansuri: So I tried something different and I sat there and I went through every single review that had been written about Facebook on Glassdoor.

Sahil Mansuri：所以我尝试了一些不同的东西，我坐在那里浏览了 Glassdoor 上关于 Facebook 的每一条评论。

First I had it pulled by a data scientist and did a word cloud and did a bunch of analytics on what was being discussed there.

首先，我让一位数据科学家将其拉出来，制作了一个词云，并对那里讨论的内容进行了一系列分析。

Pulled salary ranges, pulled salary ranges for Google and Amazon and Microsoft.

拉低了工资范围，拉低了谷歌、亚马逊和微软的工资范围。

So Glassdoor had three types of information.

所以 Glassdoor 拥有三种类型的信息。

They had the review of the company, they had the outlook of the company and then they had the review of the CEO.

他们对公司进行了审查，对公司进行了展望，然后对首席执行官进行了审查。

Sahil Mansuri: So it was like, "Do you approve of Mark's handling the company?

Sahil Mansuri：所以就像是，“你赞成马克处理公司吗？

Yes or no?" Mark had I think 96% approval rate.

是还是不是？”我认为马克的支持率是 96%。

He was one of the highest rated CEOs on Glassdoor at the time.

他是当时 Glassdoor 上评价最高的首席执行官之一。

I have no idea what it is today, but that's what it was then.

我不知道今天是什么，但当时就是这样。

So I basically called every review, all the salaries and then Mark's approval rating, and turned it into a nine page report that broke down how Facebook employees, specifically software engineers because that's what we're specialists at recruiting for, how software engineers at Facebook talked about working at Facebook and how it compared to how Google engineers talked about working at Google and whatnot, salary band comparisons and even reviews of Mark specifically versus the other CEOs of the other big tech companies.

所以我基本上打电话给每一条评论，所有的工资，然后是马克的支持率，然后把它变成了一份九页的报告，详细介绍了Facebook员工的情况，特别是软件工程师，因为这是我们招聘的专家，Facebook的软件工程师如何谈论在Facebook工作，以及它与谷歌工程师如何谈论在谷歌工作等等的比较，工资范围比较，甚至是马克与其他大型科技公司的其他首席执行官的具体评论。

Sahil Mansuri: Then sent an email to Sheryl Sandberg, a cold email to Sheryl Sandberg whose email address I did not have, but that I assumed had to be one of 15 things.

Sahil Mansuri：然后给 Sheryl Sandberg 发了一封电子邮件，这是一封冷冰冰的电子邮件，我没有她的电子邮件地址，但我认为这一定是 15 件事之一。

So I think I put ssandberg@facebook.com in the two line and then in the BCC line put every variant I could think of, everything.

所以我想我把 ssandberg@facebook.com 放在两行中，然后在 BCC 行中放入我能想到的所有变体，一切。

I mean everything I could think of I put, underscores and dots and first name and last name and abbreviations and et cetera.

我的意思是我能想到的所有内容，下划线、点、名字、姓氏、缩写等等。

The title of the email was Mark's approval rating on Glassdoor.

电子邮件的标题是 Mark 在 Glassdoor 上的支持率。

Sahil Mansuri: I was like, "Hey Sheryl.

Sahil Mansuri：我当时想，“嘿谢丽尔。

I'm from Glassdoor.

我来自玻璃门。

I was doing research on Facebook and comparing it to all the other big tech companies.

我正在对 Facebook 进行研究，并将其与所有其他大型科技公司进行比较。

I personally work with Microsoft.

我个人与微软合作。

So I have a little bit of insight in this.

所以我对此有一点点的认识。

Here's what your employees think about you.

Here's what your employees think about you.

Here's what Mark's approval rating looks like versus others, et cetera, et cetera." This whole research report, I kind of broke out some highlights, a couple screenshots, attached the report and said, "Hey, I'd love to discuss this with you sometime."

这是马克与其他人相比的支持率，等等。”在整个研究报告中，我列出了一些亮点，几张屏幕截图，附上报告并说：“嘿，我很乐意找个时间与您讨论这个问题。”

Sahil Mansuri: I think I sent the email around 3 or 4PM on a Sunday.

Sahil Mansuri：我想我是在周日下午 3 点或 4 点左右发送的电子邮件。

By 6PM I got a response back from Sheryl Sandberg CC'ing elt@fb.com or something like that, which I later found was executiveleadershipteam@facebook.com saying, "Hi Sahil, this is super interesting.

下午 6 点，我收到了 Sheryl Sandberg 的回复，抄送 elt@fb.com 或类似的邮件，后来我发现是executiveleadershipteam@facebook.com，回复说：“嗨，Sahil，这非常有趣。

We'd love to meet with you tomorrow.

我们很乐意明天与您见面。

Are you available to come to Facebook HQ at 10AM.' So at the time I was 22, 23 years old or something like that.

您可以上午 10 点来 Facebook 总部吗？所以当时我22岁、23岁或者类似的年纪。

It was pretty new to Glassdoor anyway.

无论如何，这对 Glassdoor 来说还是很新鲜的。

So then of course I said yes.

所以我当然答应了。

I sent the email to the CEO.

我将电子邮件发送给首席执行官。

He was like, "Do you want me to come and whatever?" I just said, "No, I'll handle it." I brought a customer success person and the two of us went.

他就像是，“你想让我来吗？”我只是说：“不用了，我会处理的。”我带来了一位客户成功人士，我们两个人去了。

Sahil Mansuri: We actually got to meet first with Sheryl and then I got to go to the fishbowl.

Sahil Mansuri：实际上我们首先要与 Sheryl 会面，然后我就去鱼缸。

I don't know if you know this story, but Mark had a famous office that was all glass in the middle so that he really played or whatever so his known as the fishbowl.

我不知道你是否知道这个故事，但马克有一个著名的办公室，中间全是玻璃，所以他真的可以玩什么，所以他被称为鱼缸。

So I got to go to the fishbowl.

So I got to go to the fishbowl.

I met Mark Zuckerberg himself.

我见到了马克·扎克伯格本人。

As it turns out that report and that rating got added to their weekly packet because Mark wanted to know on a weekly basis how his rating and how the employees view of Facebook was, how it was changing week over week and what people were writing, et cetera, and it became a thing.

事实证明，这份报告和评分被添加到他们的每周数据包中，因为马克想每周了解他的评分如何，员工对 Facebook 的看法如何，每周的变化如何以及人们在写什么等等，这成了一件事。

Sahil Mansuri: I don't know if it's still a thing today, I have no idea.

Sahil Mansuri：我不知道今天是否仍然如此，我不知道。

But I got to have this in depth strategic conversation with the executive leaders of Facebook around their reputation, what their employees thought, their pay bands, their interview questions, leadership, guidings, shared the word cloud, sentiment analysis, et cetera.

但我必须与 Facebook 的执行领导者就他们的声誉、员工的想法、薪酬范围、面试问题、领导力、指导、共享词云、情绪分析等进行深入的战略对话。

Needless to say, of course, we closed a massive deal with them and whatnot.

不用说，当然，我们与他们达成了一项大规模交易等等。

But that's the kind of shit it takes in order to close deals, right?

但这就是达成交易所需要的，对吧？

Sahil Mansuri: So this idea that I'm going to go onto my CRM system and fire up a hundred cold emails and I'm going to close business, that works when capital is cheap and everyone's buying everything and every rep hits quota and every company's growing, et cetera.

Sahil Mansuri：所以这个想法是，我将进入我的 CRM 系统并发送一百封冷电子邮件，然后我将关闭业务，当资本便宜、每个人都在购买一切、每个代表都达到配额并且每个公司都在增长等等时，这种想法是有效的。

That shit does not work when you are in tough times and desperate measures, you got to figure out a way to build your business.

当你处于困难时期和采取绝望的措施时，这种方法是行不通的，你必须找到一种方法来建立你的业务。

So what I would say is you got to really over, over, over index in the whole I'm going to teach you something, right?

所以我想说的是，你必须真正一遍又一遍地索引整体，我将教你一些东西，对吧？

Sahil Mansuri: It's not that I'm going to give you value because that's a really weird thing to say and it's not like my product's going to solve a problem for you because, frankly, I don't know if you know what my problems are.

Sahil Mansuri：我并不是要给你带来价值，因为这确实很奇怪，而且我的产品也不会为你解决问题，因为坦率地说，我不知道你是否知道我的问题是什么。

But I think that one thing I would advise is how can I do something that will make this worth your time in a way that it isn't about buying my software or putting job ads on my site.

但我认为我要建议的一件事是，我怎样才能做一些事情，让这件事值得你花时间，而不是购买我的软件或在我的网站上发布招聘广告。

So that's how Facebook became a customer of Glassdoor.

Facebook 就这样成为了 Glassdoor 的客户。

Lenny: That is an insane story.

莱尼：那是一个疯狂的故事。

I feel like those are moments that salespeople live for.

我觉得这些就是销售人员所追求的时刻。

How did you feel once you got that email that day?

那天你收到那封电子邮件后感觉如何？

Were you just freaking nervous?

你刚才是不是太紧张了？

Were you jumping up and down might work?

Were you jumping up and down might work?

Sahil Mansuri: I love to play chess.

Sahil Mansuri：我喜欢下棋。

It's my favorite game.

这是我最喜欢的游戏。

The reason I love chess is because I love to think a few moves ahead.

我喜欢国际象棋的原因是因为我喜欢提前思考一些动作。

I expected to get that email back.

I expected to get that email back.

I knew when I sent the email that this was going to work.

当我发送电子邮件时，我知道这会起作用。

I was like, "There's no way this won't work." The only way it wouldn't have worked is if she never saw it.

我当时想，“这不可能行不通。”唯一的办法就是如果她从来没有看到它。

So if she sees this, she's going to respond because it would be crazy for her not to.

因此，如果她看到这一点，她就会做出回应，因为如果她不这样做，那就太疯狂了。

The information on here was so good.

The information on here was so good.

So I felt a sense of satisfaction that I had played the game right in a way that no one else that my company had.

所以我感到一种满足感，因为我以一种我公司其他人没有的方式正确地玩了这个游戏。

No one else understood the psyche of the buyer.

没有人理解买家的心理。

Sahil Mansuri: So to me, sales is I don't care about the commission.

Sahil Mansuri：所以对我来说，销售就是我不关心佣金。

I've never cared about the money.

I've never cared about the money.

I think this is true for most great salespeople.

我认为对于大多数优秀的销售人员来说都是如此。

I think this is actually true for most people who are great at something is that they don't do it for the money.

我认为对于大多数擅长某事的人来说，这实际上是正确的，因为他们并不是为了钱而做这件事。

They don't do it for even necessarily the trophies or whatever.

他们这样做甚至不一定是为了奖杯或其他什么。

They do it because they love it.

They do it because they love it.

Winning, it's contagious, it's addictive and it's rewarding.

胜利是有感染力的、令人上瘾的，而且是有回报的。

Closing Facebook was a blast because I really got a chance to flex into something that I take a lot of pride in, which is being able to deeply understand my customers where they sit and how I can be not a sales rep, but someone who actually changes your perspective and how to do your job.

关闭 Facebook 是一次爆炸，因为我真的有机会从事一些令我非常自豪的事情，那就是能够深入了解我的客户，他们的位置以及我如何才能成为真正改变你观点和工作方式的人，而不是销售代表。

That's what I live for.

这就是我活着的目的。

Sahil Mansuri: So I think that's what you have to do in order to be a great salesperson is I think you have to be willing to go beyond just the, oh, I want to hit my quota or whatever.

Sahil Mansuri：所以我认为，为了成为一名出色的销售人员，你必须要做的就是，我认为你必须愿意超越，哦，我想达到我的配额或其他什么。

If you're a founder and you're trying to sell in this market, it's like how do I get my product in the hands of customers?

如果您是创始人并且想在这个市场上销售，那么我如何将我的产品送到客户手中？

You got to go beyond.

你必须超越。

How do I change the way you operate as a business?

我如何改变您的企业运营方式？

How do I do something that is transformative?

How do I do something that is transformative?

That Glassdoor rating literally got added to the ELT report that went out every single week.

Glassdoor 的评级确实被添加到每周发布的 ELT 报告中。

That's the part of the story I'm proud of.

That's the part of the story I'm proud of.

Lenny: You just mentioned that you don't do sales, that you're not a salesperson technically anymore.

莱尼：你刚才提到你不做销售，从技术上讲你不再是销售人员了。

You run this company.

你经营这家公司。

Do you miss that job being a full-time salesperson?

您怀念全职销售员的工作吗？

Sahil Mansuri: I think CEOs are full-time salespeople.

Sahil Mansuri：我认为首席执行官是全职销售人员。

I mean, think about the job of a CEO, right?

I mean, think about the job of a CEO, right?

Let's start from the infancy, right?

Let's start from the infancy, right?

Let's start from starting a company from scratch.

让我们从白手起家开始创建一家公司。

First thing you got to do if you want to start a company is you have to convince yourself to do it.

如果你想创办一家公司，你要做的第一件事就是说服自己去做。

You got to sell yourself on the fact that you want to do this.

你必须推销自己，因为你想这样做。

This is where most people fail actually.

This is where most people fail actually.

They can't sell themselves.

They can't sell themselves.

They're not able to convince themselves that they should take this leap.

他们无法说服自己应该迈出这一步。

They don't believe in themselves enough to do it.

他们对自己不够自信，无法做到这一点。

Sahil Mansuri: So first you got to be good enough to sell yourself.

Sahil Mansuri：所以首先你必须足够优秀才能推销自己。

Maybe that's delusional.

或许这就是妄想吧。

I don't really know how to coin that, but let's just say sell yourself.

我真的不知道如何创造这个，但我们只能说推销自己。

You got to then sell other more talented people than yourself to join you at a time at which you have no money, often no idea, no traction, nothing.

然后，当你没有钱、通常没有想法、没有动力、什么都没有的时候，你必须卖掉其他比你更有才华的人来加入你。

They're typically making a lot of money at a well paid...

他们通常以高薪赚很多钱...

If you hire great founders, they have a choice somewhere to work and you got to convince them to believe in you, believe in your idea, believe in the future that can be.

如果你聘请了伟大的创始人，他们可以选择工作地点，你必须说服他们相信你，相信你的想法，相信未来。

This is the second place where most people fail.

This is the second place where most people fail.

Sahil Mansuri: Assuming you do those two things, you still got to do one more thing, which is you got to actually sell an investor to give you capital based on typically virtually nothing or maybe very little attraction.

Sahil Mansuri：假设你做了这两件事，你还需要做一件事，那就是你必须实际出售一位投资者，以在通常几乎没有任何或几乎没有吸引力的情况下为你提供资本。

Then you have to go and convince your initial customers to believe in you.

然后你必须去说服你的最初客户相信你。

Because sure as heck no startups product is great.

因为确实没有哪个初创公司的产品是伟大的。

Everyone wants to be like, "Oh we're going to go change the world." But you're not changing the world today, right?

每个人都想，“哦，我们要去改变世界。” But you're not changing the world today, right?

You've got 1/100th of the feature set of any of your competitors and all you have is this dream and this energy and this belief and somebody who's willing to take a bet on you.

You've got 1/100th of the feature set of any of your competitors and all you have is this dream and this energy and this belief and somebody who's willing to take a bet on you.

You got to get someone to be willing to bet on you.

你必须让有人愿意在你身上下注。

That's sales.

这就是销售。

Sahil Mansuri: Then if you do all that, then maybe you need to get some press.

Sahil Mansuri：那么如果你做了所有这些，那么也许你需要得到一些媒体的报道。

So now you got to convince a reporter to write about you and you got to be able to do that.

所以现在你必须说服记者报道你，而且你必须能够做到这一点。

Then maybe you need to hire some more people.

Then maybe you need to hire some more people.

So you got to convince some candidates to come work for you.

所以你必须说服一些候选人来为你工作。

I mean, spend my whole day selling.

I mean, spend my whole day selling.

All I do is sales.

我所做的就是销售。

All any founder does is sales.

All any founder does is sales.

It's kind of like venture.

It's kind of like venture.

People misunderstand this.

People misunderstand this.

VCs are salespeople.

风险投资家是销售人员。

100% of VC is a salesperson because they're selling LPs to give them money and they're selling CEOs to take their money in exchange for equity.

100％的风险投资人都是销售人员，因为他们出售有限合伙人以给他们钱，他们出售首席执行官以拿走他们的钱以换取股权。

That's the job of a VC.

这就是风险投资人的工作。

Sahil Mansuri: All the analytics, all the data and the this and the that, those are just updating their CRM.

Sahil Mansuri：所有的分析、所有的数据以及这个那个，这些都只是更新他们的 CRM。

The core function of a VC is to sell.

The core function of a VC is to sell.

The core function of a CEO is to be a great salesperson.

CEO的核心职能是成为一名出色的销售人员。

Like any great salesperson, you have to balance cynicism with optimism.

像任何优秀的销售人员一样，您必须在愤世嫉俗和乐观之间取得平衡。

Great salespeople don't have what I call happy ears.

伟大的销售人员没有我所说的快乐的耳朵。

This is a problem that people misunderstand.

This is a problem that people misunderstand.

People think that being a great salesperson is being ever the optimist.

人们认为成为一名优秀的销售人员就是永远保持乐观。

That's actually not the case because then you'll waste your time on a bunch of deals that'll never close.

事实上并非如此，因为那样你就会把时间浪费在一堆永远无法完成的交易上。

Great salespeople are extremely pessimistic internally and are great at being able to then still be optimistic externally.

伟大的销售人员内心极其悲观，但很善于在外部仍然保持乐观。

Sahil Mansuri: Where they're actually trying to disqualify you.

Sahil Mansuri：他们实际上是想取消你的资格。

They're looking for signals that you're not going to buy and weeding those out, while still at the same time positively spinning you and selling you.

They're looking for signals that you're not going to buy and weeding those out, while still at the same time positively spinning you and selling you.

That ability to juxtapose is what diverges good from great.

这种并置能力正是善与善的区别所在。

Because good salespeople will get misled by customers who tell them they want to buy, but if you would really press harder, you'd understand that they can't or won't or whatever.

Because good salespeople will get misled by customers who tell them they want to buy, but if you would really press harder, you'd understand that they can't or won't or whatever.

So you waste your time on a bunch of companies that never buy versus great salespeople know how to prioritize and spend their time properly.

因此，你把时间浪费在一群从不购买的公司上，而优秀的销售人员知道如何确定优先顺序并正确地分配时间。

Sahil Mansuri: The same applies in venture.

Sahil Mansuri: The same applies in venture.

If you are a CEO who's fundraising, I cannot tell you, honestly Lenny, I can't tell you how many other CEOs I know get constantly misled by VCs where the VC says one or two good things and they're like, "Oh, they're definitely going to invest." As opposed to giving that VC every out to not continue the conversation.

如果你是一位正在筹款的首席执行官，我无法告诉你，老实说，莱尼，我无法告诉你我知道有多少其他首席执行官经常被风险投资人误导，风险投资人说了一两件好话，他们就像，“哦，他们肯定会投资。”而不是让 VC 竭尽全力不继续谈话。

If they still are willing to talk to you after that, then that they're for real.

如果在那之后他们仍然愿意和你说话，那么他们是真的。

I think that being a CEO and being a salesperson are the same job.

我认为担任首席执行官和担任销售人员是同一个工作。

Different forms of it, of course, different audiences, different products, et cetera.

当然，它的形式不同，受众不同，产品不同，等等。

But ultimately they're the same thing.

But ultimately they're the same thing.

So no, I don't miss it.

所以不，我不会错过它。

I do it every single day and I love doing it.

I do it every single day and I love doing it.

I'm learning more and more every day from the failures and shortcomings I have.

我每天都从失败和缺点中学到越来越多的东西。

Lenny: It's very clear that you love doing it.

Lenny: It's very clear that you love doing it.

It's so interesting just to watch the energy when you talk about sales.

当你谈论销售时，光是观察它的能量就很有趣。

I rarely meet folks that do sales.

I rarely meet folks that do sales.

So it's really fun to dive into all this stuff.

So it's really fun to dive into all this stuff.

We promised folks five topics, you've gone through four.

我们向大家承诺了五个主题，你们已经完成了四个。

The last one I wanted to touch on, and you've already talked a bit about this and maybe there's just a quick tidbit to add here is around just how important growth continues to be for companies at this stage.

The last one I wanted to touch on, and you've already talked a bit about this and maybe there's just a quick tidbit to add here is around just how important growth continues to be for companies at this stage.

It's easy to be like, "No, the markets are tough.

人们很容易会说：“不，市场很艰难。

People are going to give us a little bit of a leeway because no one's going to be able to grow." Your point is it's still incredibly important.

人们会给我们一点余地，因为没有人能够成长。”你的观点是它仍然非常重要。

Is there something you want to add there before we get to our very exciting lightning round?

在我们开始激动人心的闪电回合之前，您有什么想要补充的吗？

Sahil Mansuri: I guess there's just one last thing, which is innovation is often put to the side.

Sahil Mansuri：我想只有最后一件事，那就是创新常常被放在一边。

People just try to do the things that everyone else is doing.

人们只是尝试做其他人正在做的事情。

So I'll tell you something that we did at Bravado as an example of this.

所以我会告诉你我们在 Bravado 所做的事情作为一个例子。

So we run a recruiting marketplace and competing with LinkedIn and AngelList and hired and all the rest of it.

因此，我们运营着一个招聘市场，与 LinkedIn 和 AngelList 竞争，并雇用了其他人。

Like all those companies, we have seen a massive slowdown in our business.

与所有这些公司一样，我们的业务大幅放缓。

Unlike those companies, we didn't take that as kind of the end of the road for growth for now.

与这些公司不同的是，我们目前并不认为这就是增长之路的终点。

But instead said, "Okay, so let me put myself back in the perspective of my buyer, my customer who are often founders and CROs and CFOs."

但相反，他说：“好吧，让我重新站在买家、客户的角度来看，他们通常是创始人、首席风险官和首席财务官。”

Sahil Mansuri: Those are the people that tend to buy from Bravado because they're the people who care the most about growing revenue.

Sahil Mansuri：这些人倾向于从 Bravado 购买产品，因为他们最关心收入增长。

I can't hire anymore full-time salespeople because the market is tough right now and I can't increase my burn or what, but I still want to get new customers.

I can't hire anymore full-time salespeople because the market is tough right now and I can't increase my burn or what, but I still want to get new customers.

It's just I can't afford to hire full-time people.

只是我雇不起全职人员。

In fact, I might be forced to lay off my team.

In fact, I might be forced to lay off my team.

What do I do?

我该怎么办？

We kind of just sat there with a think whiteboard and just said, "All right, let's put ourselves in this situation.

我们只是坐在那里，拿着一块思考白板，然后说：“好吧，让我们把自己置于这种情况下。

What would you do?"

你会怎么做？”

Sahil Mansuri: One of the things that I think would be really interesting is I'm actually willing to pay money to acquire customers.

Sahil Mansuri：我认为真正有趣的事情之一是我实际上愿意花钱来获取客户。

I just can't take the risk that I hire someone and they won't bring me customer.

我只是不能冒雇用某人而他们不会给我带来客户的风险。

What if we created a 100% commission only sales role?

如果我们创建一个只收取 100% 佣金的销售角色会怎么样？

It doesn't exist today in SaaS.

It doesn't exist today in SaaS.

It does exist in other places, it just doesn't exist in SaaS really.

它确实存在于其他地方，只是在 SaaS 中并不存在。

But what if we created a way for sales reps who can't find a full-time job because the market is slow and companies who can't hire a full-time sales rep but still want customers to work together on a commission only basis.

But what if we created a way for sales reps who can't find a full-time job because the market is slow and companies who can't hire a full-time sales rep but still want customers to work together on a commission only basis.

Sahil Mansuri: Now a year ago, this product would not have worked, right?

Sahil Mansuri：一年前，这个产品还行不通，对吧？

Because the supply-demand equilibrium was so tilted where every company needed great sales talent and every sales rep was getting multiple offers.

Because the supply-demand equilibrium was so tilted where every company needed great sales talent and every sales rep was getting multiple offers.

So in that world, this product makes no sense.

So in that world, this product makes no sense.

But in a world in which you have far more sales reps who are looking for work and far fewer companies who are hiring, maybe we can create a new model of sales.

But in a world in which you have far more sales reps who are looking for work and far fewer companies who are hiring, maybe we can create a new model of sales.

Sahil Mansuri: If Airbnb and Uber grew dramatically during the pandemic and actually are somewhat counter cyclical businesses, because if you can't find a full-time job then you find gig work, what would we be able to do for our community that instead of putting them in a different field, lets them use the skills, the network and the expertise they already have in order to do the thing they want to do, but be able to do it in a down market as well.

Sahil Mansuri: If Airbnb and Uber grew dramatically during the pandemic and actually are somewhat counter cyclical businesses, because if you can't find a full-time job then you find gig work, what would we be able to do for our community that instead of putting them in a different field, lets them use the skills, the network and the expertise they already have in order to do the thing they want to do, but be able to do it in a down market as well.

So we launched something called Bravado Flex, which is a way for companies and candidates to work together in a non full-time employment way.

所以我们推出了一种叫做 Bravado Flex 的东西，这是一种让公司和候选人以非全职就业方式一起工作的方式。

Sahil Mansuri: That can mean contract hire, it can mean a hundred percent commission, it can mean fractional work, it can mean small stipend plus milestone base.

Sahil Mansuri: That can mean contract hire, it can mean a hundred percent commission, it can mean fractional work, it can mean small stipend plus milestone base.

There's a bunch of different ways at work.

There's a bunch of different ways at work.

Overnight, we went from having a massive slowdown to our business to one of the best months that we've ever had in company history, which was last month, and this month will be even better than that.

Overnight, we went from having a massive slowdown to our business to one of the best months that we've ever had in company history, which was last month, and this month will be even better than that.

So while our full-time recruiting business slows, our fractional business grows.

因此，尽管我们的全职招聘业务放缓，但我们的部分业务却在增长。

Sahil Mansuri: So I use that as an example of the type of innovation that companies should be thinking of.

Sahil Mansuri：所以我以此作为公司应该考虑的创新类型的例子。

As well as if you are a company that is thinking of increasing revenue but doesn't have enough levers to pull, maybe this is one that you might want to explore.

As well as if you are a company that is thinking of increasing revenue but doesn't have enough levers to pull, maybe this is one that you might want to explore.

But I think it comes back down to that fundamental staring at the whiteboard being like, "If I'm a customer and I'm in this world, what can we do today to change the rules of the game?" Because sometimes the rules of the game are stacked against you.

But I think it comes back down to that fundamental staring at the whiteboard being like, "If I'm a customer and I'm in this world, what can we do today to change the rules of the game?"因为有时游戏规则对你不利。

As a recruiting business, the rules to the game were now stacked against us.

作为一家招聘企业，游戏规则现在对我们不利。

Sahil Mansuri: No one's got money.

Sahil Mansuri：没有人有钱。

People don't want to hire.

人们不想雇用。

There's hiring freezes, et cetera.

招聘冻结等等。

There's more candidates in the market than ever before.

市场上的候选人比以往任何时候都多。

Companies are going to be less and less likely to want to pay us to recruit for them.

公司将越来越不愿意付钱给我们为他们招聘员工。

There's nothing I can do about that.

我对此无能为力。

I mean, I can stick my head out the window and scream and cry and complain, but that ain't going to get me anywhere either.

我的意思是，我可以把头伸出窗外尖叫、哭泣、抱怨，但这也不会让我有任何进展。

So what I need to do is change the rules of the game and start to think about the problem differently.

所以我需要做的是改变游戏规则并开始以不同的方式思考问题。

Sahil Mansuri: I think that not enough founders do that.

Sahil Mansuri：我认为没有足够的创始人这样做。

They just kind of bash their heads against the wall with the same kind of preconceived notions of what success may or may not look like.

他们只是用同样的先入为主的观念来撞墙，认为成功可能会是什么样子，也可能不会。

So I would really advise, and I'll give you some examples of where this goes beyond Bravado Flex, but change your pricing strategy.

所以我真的会建议，我会给你一些例子来说明这超出了 Bravado Flex 的范围，但是改变你的定价策略。

Now, let's say that you sell a product and it's $12,000 per year.

现在，假设您销售一种产品，每年的销售额为 12,000 美元。

Try charging a thousand dollars a month and going month to month.

尝试每月收取一千美元，然后逐月收取。

Try charging 20 bucks a day and going day by day.

尝试每天充电 20 美元，并日复一日地进行。

Then you might be like, "Well, wait a minute.

然后你可能会说：“好吧，等一下。

That just changes to every..." But you have to adapt, right?

这只会改变每一个……”但你必须适应，对吧？

Sahil Mansuri: If your old model is not going to work, it's asinine to just sit there and then try to make minor changes like, "Oh, instead of 12 we'll reduce price to 10 or something." People try to optimize their way out of problems.

Sahil Mansuri: If your old model is not going to work, it's asinine to just sit there and then try to make minor changes like, "Oh, instead of 12 we'll reduce price to 10 or something."人们试图优化解决问题的方法。

You can't optimize your way out of a problem.

你无法优化解决问题的方法。

You got to completely change the rules of the game.

你必须彻底改变游戏规则。

In doing so, you suddenly will learn something new.

这样做时，你会突然学到一些新东西。

Bravado Flex may not work forever.

Bravado Flex 可能不会永远有效。

Who knows?

谁知道？

But maybe, just maybe, as we've been doing this, we've realized that there's actually a lot of sales reps that prefer this because they can do flex for multiple companies.

But maybe, just maybe, as we've been doing this, we've realized that there's actually a lot of sales reps that prefer this because they can do flex for multiple companies.

Sahil Mansuri: So all of a sudden we learn something really new, which is that our audience are the same candidates that we're replacing to full-time jobs, are actually in some cases preferring doing this fractional work.

Sahil Mansuri：所以突然间我们学到了一些新的东西，那就是我们的受众是我们要取代全职工作的候选人，实际上在某些情况下更喜欢做这种零碎的工作。

Because now they don't need to go to all the meetings and they don't need to update Salesforce.

因为现在他们不需要参加所有会议，也不需要更新 Salesforce。

They don't need to do all the boring shit that sales reps don't like to do.

他们不需要做销售代表不喜欢做的所有无聊的事情。

Instead, they can just work for three companies, use the existing network they have, get meetings set up for all of them, pitch the best product to the right customer, and all of a sudden they feel like instead of having to pitch the one hammer that you need to use for every...

相反，他们可以只为三个公司工作，使用他们现有的网络，为所有公司安排会议，向合适的客户推销最好的产品，突然之间，他们觉得不必推销每个人都需要使用的一把锤子......

They have a wide tool set that they can bring to their customers.

他们拥有可以为客户提供的广泛工具集。

Sahil Mansuri: All of a sudden companies are like, "Well, wait a minute, this is actually pretty cool because now instead of just hiring one person at a time and training them, I can hire 10 people at a time and I can have multiple kind of fish in..." So we just changed the rules of the game around sales hiring as a market.

Sahil Mansuri：突然之间，公司会说，“好吧，等一下，这实际上很酷，因为现在我可以一次雇用 10 个人，然后再培训他们，而不是一次雇用一个人，而且我可以有多种鱼......”所以我们只是改变了围绕销售招聘市场的游戏规则。

I think that's the sort of innovation that you have to bring to the market if you want to survive in the downturn, which you can't just sit there and just try to do the same stuff over and over and over again.

我认为，如果你想在经济低迷时期生存下来，你就必须将这种创新带入市场，你不能只是坐在那里，一遍又一遍地尝试做同样的事情。

You got to really be willing to break all preconceived notions of what success looks like, innovate something new and then take bigger swings I guess is the thing I would say.

你必须真正愿意打破所有关于成功的先入为主的观念，创新一些新的东西，然后采取更大的举措，我想这就是我想说的。

Lenny: That's a very empowering way to close out our chat.

莱尼：这是结束我们聊天的一种非常有力量的方式。

But first, we reached the very exciting lightning round.

但首先，我们进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。

I'm going to ask you five questions.

我要问你五个问题。

I'll go through them pretty fast.

我会很快地浏览它们。

Whatever comes to mind, fire it away.

无论想到什么，就把它扔掉。

Does that sound good?

听起来不错吗？

Lenny: What are some books that you recommend to other people, like two or three, maybe even one book that you most recommend to other people?

莱尼：您向其他人推荐了哪些书，比如两三本，甚至是您最向其他人推荐的一本书？

Sahil Mansuri: There's one book that I think every person should read.

Sahil Mansuri：我认为每个人都应该读一本书。

It's called Stumbling Upon Happiness.

这就是所谓的“绊倒幸福”。

Lenny: Yeah, Dan Gilbert I think is the author.

莱尼：是的，我认为丹·吉尔伯特就是作者。

Sahil Mansuri: Yeah, that's right.

萨希尔·曼苏里： 是的，没错。

That's right.

这是正确的。

It's a really fun book.

这是一本非常有趣的书。

A lot of interesting studies and readings.

很多有趣的研究和阅读。

I think especially if you're a founder or an executive who wants to learn how to sell and wants to understand how your buyers make decisions, I think it's really impactful and teaches you a new way to think about sales using psychology.

我认为，特别是如果您是一位创始人或高管，想要学习如何销售并想要了解买家如何做出决策，我认为这确实很有影响力，并教会您一种利用心理学思考销售的新方法。

Lenny: Great pick.

莱尼：很棒的选择。

Second question.

第二个问题。

Favorite other podcast that you like to listen to?

您最喜欢听的其他播客吗？

Sahil Mansuri: There's actually only two other podcasts I listen to, so it's a small choice.

Sahil Mansuri：实际上我只听另外两个播客，所以这是一个很小的选择。

I listen to the All In podcast because I love the fact that they have really good show notes so I can just jump to the section that I want to hear them talk about instead of listening to like-

我听 All In 播客，因为我喜欢他们有非常好的节目笔记，这样我就可以跳到我想听他们谈论的部分，而不是听喜欢的——

Lenny: We got those show notes here too.

莱尼：我们也在这里得到了那些演出笔记。

Sahil Mansuri: That's right.

萨希尔·曼苏里：没错。

I'm excited for that as well.

我也为此感到兴奋。

Of course, I listen to yours, but I figured that was too on the nose.

当然，我听你的，但我觉得那太令人讨厌了。

Sahil Mansuri: On the nose, yeah.

Sahil Mansuri：在鼻子上，是的。

Then the other one is the How I Built This.

然后另一个是我是如何构建这个的。

Lenny: Great choices.

莱尼：很棒的选择。

What's a recent favorite movie or a TV show that you've really enjoyed?

您最近最喜欢的电影或电视节目是什么？

Sahil Mansuri: I don't watch a lot of TV or movies.

Sahil Mansuri：我看的电视或电影不多。

but I would say that a strong exception to that is I really like The Blacklist, if you've seen that show.

但我想说的是，一个强烈的例外是我真的很喜欢《黑名单》，如果你看过那个节目的话。

But it's a pretty good one.

但这是一个相当不错的。

James Spader.

詹姆斯·斯派德.

Yeah, I really love James Spader.

是的，我真的很喜欢詹姆斯·斯派德。

I find him to be someone I really, really like.

我发现他是我非常非常喜欢的人。

I'm also a big fan of Aaron Sorkin so I liked The newsroom a lot and then West Wing and whatnot.

我也是亚伦·索金（Aaron Sorkin）的忠实粉丝，所以我非常喜欢《新闻编辑室》，然后是《西翼》等等。

I think the thing is I really nerdy stuff like Jeopardy and Frasier.

我认为问题是我真的很喜欢《危险边缘》和《欢乐一家亲》这样的书呆子。

I never liked Friends.

我从来不喜欢《老友记》。

I think it's just the dork in me that I like to watch nerdy stuff.

我认为我只是个傻瓜，所以喜欢看书呆子的东西。

Lenny: Final question, what are five SaaS products that you find incredibly useful at your company, especially new ones?

Lenny：最后一个问题，您认为对您的公司非常有用的五种 SaaS 产品是什么，尤其是新产品？

But if not, anything that are just I love these products.

但如果没有，那就是我喜欢这些产品。

Sahil Mansuri: I'm a huge Luddite because my favorite tools to use are pen and paper.

Sahil Mansuri：我是一个巨大的勒德分子，因为我最喜欢使用的工具是笔和纸。

I like to write by hand.

我喜欢用手写字。

I like to write on a whiteboard.

我喜欢在白板上写字。

I enjoy the tactical part of that.

我喜欢其中的战术部分。

I've tried to use the reMarkable tablet and other stuff like that, but I don't get the same pleasure of writing on actual pen and paper.

我尝试过使用 reMarkable 平板电脑和其他类似的东西，但我没有得到在实际的笔和纸上书写的同样的乐趣。

That's my favorite.

这是我最喜欢的。

I mean, in terms of tools that we use it at Bravado that are hugely impactful, I mean, Slack is the central OS of our business as I'm sure it's for many others.

我的意思是，就我们在 Bravado 使用的具有巨大影响力的工具而言，Slack 是我们业务的核心操作系统，我确信它对于许多其他业务也是如此。

Obviously we use Zoom a lot to meet and that's a core one.

显然，我们经常使用 Zoom 来开会，这是核心之一。

Sahil Mansuri: Noshell operates everything for us as well.

Sahil Mansuri：Noshell 也为我们管理一切。

So I don't think I'm saying anything that that's exciting here.

所以我认为我在这里所说的并不是什么令人兴奋的事情。

There's a product called Grain that I really like that I think is really cool.

有一种产品叫 Grain，我非常喜欢它，我认为它真的很酷。

Grain allows you to make clips of Zoom meetings and send them out.

Grain 允许您制作 Zoom 会议的剪辑并将其发送出去。

The reason I really like that is because if I have a customer call, if I have a user interview or a VC call or whatnot, I can take a snippet of something that someone said and let other people hear it from their words.

我真的很喜欢这样的原因是，如果我接到客户电话，如果我接到用户访谈或风险投资电话或类似的电话，我可以摘录某人所说的话，让其他人从他们的话中听到。

I think that's really powerful and something that I really enjoy.

我认为这非常强大，也是我真正喜欢的。

Lenny: Great.

莱尼：太好了。

Love it.

爱它。

Sahil, this was amazing.

萨希尔，这太棒了。

I feel like I want to be a salesperson now.

我觉得我现在想成为一名销售员。

You infected me, but I still would be really bad at it.

你感染了我，但我仍然表现得很糟糕。

But there's a lot of nuggets in this episode that would make me less bad.

但这集中有很多金块可以让我不那么糟糕。

So thank you for that.

所以谢谢你。

Sahil Mansuri: I'm going to jump in.

Sahil Mansuri：我要加入。

You've said that once.

你已经说过一次了。

you've said that once to me before and I can't let you end on that note because it's not fair because Lenny, you are a salesperson and you are one of the best that I have met.

你以前对我说过一次，我不能让你以这种方式结束，因为这不公平，因为莱尼，你是一名销售人员，而且你是我见过的最好的销售人员之一。

The reason why that's true is because you have built a business from the ground up.

之所以如此，是因为您是从头开始建立一家企业的。

I didn't know who the heck you were a couple years ago now.

几年前我还不知道你到底是谁。

Maybe you had a big brand more than a couple years ago too, and I was just the idiot.

也许几年前你也有一个大品牌，而我只是个白痴。

But everybody I know now knows and respects you.

但我现在认识的每个人都认识并尊重你。

The reason for that is because, I mean, I think you have really deep knowledge on product.

原因是，我的意思是，我认为你对产品有非常深入的了解。

I think there's probably other people that have really deep knowledge on product too.

我认为可能还有其他人对产品也有非常深入的了解。

Sahil Mansuri: But you are the best at marketing that and turning that into...

Sahil Mansuri：但你最擅长营销并将其转化为......

You got distribution around it.

你得到了围绕它的分配。

You've given so much to the world of product and been kind of a bright light that so many people have gravitated around and such so that when you launch Lenny's Talent Collective or Lenny's whatever podcast or whatever's the latest Lenny thing, in fact I remember you did a poll to try to figure out what should be the name of this podcast and ultimately the thing that one was Lenny podcast I think.

你为产品世界做出了如此多的贡献，就像一盏明灯，吸引了很多人，所以当你推出 Lenny's Talent Collective 或 Lenny's 播客或 Lenny 的最新事物时，事实上，我记得你做了一项民意调查，试图找出这个播客的名称，最终我认为是 Lenny 播客。

So I think that is the core of sales.

所以我认为这是销售的核心。

Sahil Mansuri: I want to go back to the first principle, which is that sales when done well does not feel salesy.

Sahil Mansuri：我想回到第一个原则，即销售做得好时不会让人感觉推销。

Sales when done well is a delightful experience.

做得好的销售是一种令人愉快的经历。

People love paying you money.

人们喜欢付钱给你。

People love consuming your content because it's good.

人们喜欢消费您的内容，因为它很好。

That's what makes a great salesperson.

这就是成为一名优秀销售员的原因。

Facebook didn't regret taking that meeting with me.

Facebook 并不后悔与我会面。

Facebook didn't regret signing that contract.

Facebook 并不后悔签署这份合同。

They enjoyed it, they liked it, they were happy for it and it felt delightful to them and that's how sales should feel.

他们喜欢它，他们喜欢它，他们为此感到高兴，这让他们感到愉快，这就是销售应该有的感觉。

Sahil Mansuri: So this notion that the way you're good at sales is because you're super extroverted and pushy and willing to put yourself out there and whatever is a misguided notion.

Sahil Mansuri：所以这种认为你擅长销售的方式是因为你超级外向、咄咄逼人、愿意把自己展示出来的想法是一个错误的想法。

You are the future of sales.

你是销售的未来。

If every salesperson gave a ton of value, played the long game, nurtured their community and created products and services based on the feedback from their customers, the world would be such a better place.

如果每个销售人员都付出大量的价值，玩长远的游戏，培育他们的社区并根据客户的反馈创造产品和服务，世界将会变得更加美好。

So don't sell yourself short, my friend.

所以，不要低估自己，我的朋友。

I think you are a phenomenal salesperson.

我认为你是一位出色的销售员。

Lenny: Damn.

莱尼：该死。

What a way to end it.

有什么办法可以结束它。

I so appreciate that.

我非常欣赏这一点。

I'm going to deflect from this epic compliment and move on to closing this out, but I really appreciate that.

我将放弃这种史诗般的赞美并继续结束这一切，但我真的很感激。

Where can folks find you online if they want to learn more about you, Bravado and how can folks be useful to you?

如果人们想更多地了解你，他们可以在哪里找到你，Bravado，人们如何对你有用？

Sahil Mansuri: First of all, you can just email me.

Sahil Mansuri：首先，您可以给我发电子邮件。

I'm just sahil@bravado.co. I love responding to emails and meeting people, so I'm always down for that.

我只是 sahil@bravado.co。我喜欢回复电子邮件和与人会面，所以我总是对此感到沮丧。

Secondly, you can find me on LinkedIn where I regularly post content around sales and revenue and hitting targets and all that.

其次，您可以在 LinkedIn 上找到我，我经常发布有关销售和收入以及达成目标等内容。

Then lastly, if you want to learn more about Bravado, it's just bravado.co. Sign up and check it out.

最后，如果您想了解有关 Bravado 的更多信息，只需 bravado.co。注册并查看。

If you like something, let me know.

如果你喜欢什么，请告诉我。

If you don't like it, then please let me know so we can make it better.

如果您不喜欢它，请告诉我，以便我们做得更好。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

Sahil, thank you again for being here, for sharing all your wisdom with us.

萨希尔，再次感谢您来到这里，与我们分享您的智慧。

Sahil Mansuri: Thank you.

萨希尔·曼苏里：谢谢。

Thanks for having me.

谢谢你有我。

Lenny: Thank you so much for listening.

莱尼：非常感谢您的聆听。

If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcast, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.

如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcast、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.

您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。