'Inside Google''s AI turnaround: AI Mode, AI Overviews, and vision for AI-powered search | Robby Stein'

Lenny Rachitsky: It feels like something has changed internally at Google.

Lenny Rachitsky：感觉谷歌内部发生了一些变化。

Just last week, Google Gemini hit the number one app in the App Store.

就在上周，Google Gemini 登上了 App Store 排名第一的应用程序。

I feel like nobody saw this coming.

我觉得没有人预见到这一点。

Robby Stein: Google's mission around have any information be universally accessible, this very enduring, very motivating thing, and it feels like with the AI moment, we can actually achieve that more than ever before.

Robby Stein：谷歌的使命是让任何信息都能被普遍访问，这是一个非常持久、非常激励人心的事情，感觉随着人工智能的到来，我们实际上比以往任何时候都可以实现这一目标。

What I'm feeling now is just an incredible sense of focus and urgency.

我现在的感受是一种难以置信的专注感和紧迫感。

Things have hit a tipping point where these models are now truly able to deliver for consumers.

事情已经达到了一个转折点，这些模型现在真正能够为消费者提供服务。

Lenny Rachitsky: As ChatGPT emerged over the past couple of years, as Perplexity emerged, a lot of people were just like, "Google is dead.

Lenny Rachitsky：随着 ChatGPT 在过去几年的出现，随着 Perplexity 的出现，很多人都说，“谷歌已经死了。

Nobody wants to sit through search results and click links."

没有人愿意坐下来浏览搜索结果并点击链接。”

Robby Stein: The core Google search isn't really changing, in my opinion.

Robby Stein：在我看来，谷歌的核心搜索并没有真正改变。

We're not seeing that people come to search for just ridiculously wide set of things.

我们并没有看到人们来寻找范围广泛得可笑的东西。

They want a specific phone number, they want a price for something, they want to get directions.

他们想要一个特定的电话号码，他们想要某样东西的价格，他们想要获得路线。

I think the vastness of that is underappreciated by many people.

我认为许多人都低估了它的巨大性。

AI is expansionary.

人工智能具有扩展性。

There's actually just more and more questions being asked and curiosity that can be fulfilled now with AI.

事实上，现在有越来越多的问题和好奇心可以通过人工智能来满足。

Lenny Rachitsky: You've built a lot of very successful products.

Lenny Rachitsky：您已经打造了很多非常成功的产品。

You used this phrase: embodying relentless improvement.

您用了这句话：体现不懈的改进。

Robby Stein: You need to be the physical manifestation of two pieces of things.

罗比·斯坦：你需要成为两件事物的物理表现。

One is just relentlessness, just complete effort that is always exerted in a direction of positive productivity.

一种是不懈的努力，始终朝着积极生产力的方向努力。

And then the second is make things better.

第二个是让事情变得更好。

You have to always make things better.

你必须始终让事情变得更好。

You're never content.

你永远不会满足。

Lenny Rachitsky: You build and launch Stories at Instagram back in the day is quite controversial because it basically took what Snapchat was doing really well and then like, "Hey, let's bring it to Instagram."

Lenny Rachitsky：当时在 Instagram 上创建和发布 Stories 是相当有争议的，因为它基本上采用了 Snapchat 做得很好的东西，然后就像，“嘿，让我们把它带到 Instagram 上。”

Robby Stein: Not every great thing is going to be invented by you.

罗比·斯坦：并不是所有伟大的事情都会由你发明。

Facebook probably created the modern feed, but there's a feed for every single product.

Facebook 可能创建了现代 feed，但每个产品都有一个 feed。

At the end of the day, you're just robbing your user base of the opportunity to have a better product.

归根结底，您只是剥夺了用户群获得更好产品的机会。

Lenny Rachitsky: Today my guest is Robby Stein, Robby's VP of Product for Google Search and is responsible for essentially the entire Google search experience, including the new AI Overviews, AI Mode, multimodal AI experiences like Google Lens, the ranking algorithm, and a lot more.

Lenny Rachitsky：今天我的嘉宾是 Robby Stein，他是 Robby 的 Google 搜索产品副总裁，负责整个 Google 搜索体验，包括新的 AI 概述、AI 模式、Google Lens 等多模式 AI 体验、排名算法等等。

He's at the forefront of one of the biggest shifts in Google's history, and has already made a massive dent in Google's trajectory.

他处于谷歌历史上最大转变之一的最前沿，并且已经对谷歌的发展轨迹产生了巨大的影响。

He's also made a massive dent in the trajectory of Instagram where he was head of product, and led the launch of Instagram Stories and Reels and Close Friends, and through that, grew Instagram to half a billion daily active users.

他还担任产品主管，对 Instagram 的发展轨迹产生了巨大影响，并领导推出了 Instagram Stories、Reels 和 Close Friends，并通过这些举措将 Instagram 的日活跃用户数量扩大到了 5 亿。

He's also on the founding team of Artifact with Mike Krieger and Kevin Systrom.

他还与 Mike Krieger 和 Kevin Systrom 一起组成了 Artifact 的创始团队。

Started two companies of his own.

他自己创办了两家公司。

Very few people have had this level of impact on two global consumer products at this scale.

很少有人能对两种全球消费品产生如此规模的影响。

And Robby shares all of the biggest lessons that he's learned about building great and successful consumer products, along with a bunch of insights into where Google is headed in the world of AI.

Robby 分享了他在打造出色且成功的消费产品方面学到的所有最重要的经验教训，以及对 Google 在人工智能领域的发展方向的一系列见解。

Lenny Rachitsky: A huge thank you to Bart Stein for suggesting topics for this conversation.

Lenny Rachitsky：非常感谢 Bart Stein 为本次对话提出的主题。

If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube, it helps tremendously.

如果您喜欢这个播客，请不要忘记订阅并在您最喜欢的播客应用程序或 YouTube 中关注它，这会很有帮助。

And, if you become an annual subscriber of my newsletter, you get a year free of 15 incredible products including Lovable, Replit, Bolt, n8n, Linear, Superhuman, Descript, Whispr Flow, Gamma, Perplexity, Warp, Granola, Magic Patterns, Raycast, ChatPRD, and Mobbin.

而且，如果您成为我的时事通讯的年度订阅者，您将获得一年免费的 15 种令人难以置信的产品，包括 Lovable、Replit、Bolt、n8n、Linear、Super human、Descript、Whispr Flow、Gamma、Perplexity、Warp、Granola、Magic Patterns、Raycast、ChatPRD 和 Mobbin。

Head on over to lennysnewsletter.com and click Product Pass.

前往 lennysnewsletter.com 并单击 Product Pass。

With that, I bring you Robby Stein.

接下来，我为您带来罗比·斯坦。

Lenny Rachitsky: My podcast guests and I love talking about craft and taste and agency and product market fit.

Lenny Rachitsky：我和我的播客嘉宾喜欢谈论工艺和品味以及代理机构和产品市场契合度。

You know what we don't love talking about?

你知道我们不喜欢谈论什么吗？

SOC 2.

SOC 2。

That's where Vanta comes in.

这就是万塔登场的地方。

Vanta helps companies of all sizes get compliant fast and stay that way with industry-leading AI automation and continuous monitoring.

Vanta 通过行业领先的人工智能自动化和持续监控，帮助各种规模的公司快速获得合规性并保持这种状态。

Whether you're a startup tackling your first SOC 2 or ISO 27001, or an enterprise managing vendor risk, Vanta's trust management platform makes it quicker, easier, and more scalable.

无论您是解决第一个 SOC 2 或 ISO 27001 问题的初创公司，还是管理供应商风险的企业，Vanta 的信任管理平台都可以让您更快、更轻松且更具可扩展性。

Vanta also helps you complete security questionnaires up to five times faster so that you can win bigger deals sooner.

Vanta 还可以帮助您以五倍的速度完成安全调查问卷，以便您可以更快地赢得更大的交易。

The result?

结果呢？

According to a recent IDC study, Vanta customers slashed over $500,000 a year and are three times more productive.

根据 IDC 最近的一项研究，Vanta 客户每年节省超过 500,000 美元，而生产力却提高了三倍。

Establishing trust isn't optional.

建立信任不是可选的。

Vanta makes it automatic.

Vanta 使其自动化。

Get $1,000 off at vanta.com/lenny.

访问vanta.com/lenny 可享 1,000 美元折扣。

Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by Jira Product Discovery.

Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 Jira Product Discovery 为您带来。

The hardest part of building products isn't actually building products, it's everything else.

构建产品最困难的部分实际上并不是构建产品，而是其他一切。

It's proving that the work matters, managing stakeholders, trying to plan ahead.

它证明工作很重要，管理利益相关者，努力提前计划。

Most teams spend more time reacting than learning, chasing updates, justifying roadmaps, and constantly unblocking work to keep things moving.

大多数团队花费更多的时间来做出反应，而不是学习、追求更新、证明路线图的合理性，以及不断地排除工作障碍以保持事情的进展。

Jira Product Discovery puts you back in control.

Jira Product Discovery 让您重新掌控一切。

With Jira Product Discovery, you can capture insights and prioritize high-impact ideas.

借助 Jira Product Discovery，您可以捕获见解并优先考虑高影响力的想法。

It's flexible, so it adapts to the way your team works and helps you build a roadmap that drives alignment, not questions.

它很灵活，因此可以适应您团队的工作方式，并帮助您构建一个驱动一致性而不是问题的路线图。

And because it's built on Jira, you can track ideas from strategy to delivery all in one place.

由于它基于 Jira 构建，因此您可以在一个地方跟踪从策略到交付的所有想法。

Less chasing, more time to think, learn and build the right thing.

更少的追逐，更多的时间去思考、学习和构建正确的东西。

Get Jira Product Discovery for free at atlassian.com/lenny.

请访问 atlassian.com/lenny 免费获取 Jira Product Discovery。

That's atlassian.com/lenny.

这是 atlassian.com/lenny。

Lenny Rachitsky: Robby, thank you so much for being here, and welcome to the podcast.

Lenny Rachitsky：Robby，非常感谢您来到这里，欢迎来到播客。

Lenny Rachitsky: This is such a cool week to be recording this podcast.

Lenny Rachitsky：录制这个播客真是太酷了。

So just last week, Gemini, Google Gemini hit the number one app in the App Store.

就在上周，Gemini、Google Gemini 登上了 App Store 排名第一的应用程序。

I have it right here, it's still number one in the App Store.

我就在这里，它仍然是 App Store 中的第一名。

It's above ChatGPT.

它位于 ChatGPT 之上。

I feel like nobody saw this coming.

我觉得没有人预见到这一点。

I feel like everyone's always like, "Google, what have you guys been doing?

我觉得每个人总是会说，“谷歌，你们在做什么？

You guys build all this amazing tech and why didn't you have anything working in consumer?

你们创造了所有这些令人惊叹的技术，为什么你们没有在消费者领域发挥作用？

Why is ChatGPT doing?

ChatGPT 为什么这样做？

Why are all these amazing companies doing better than Google?"

为什么所有这些出色的公司都比谷歌做得更好？”

Lenny Rachitsky: So first of all, let me just say congrats on, I know this isn't all you.

Lenny Rachitsky：首先，我要恭喜你，我知道这不是你的全部。

I imagine you had some part in this, so just congrats.

我想你也参与其中，所以恭喜你。

Lenny Rachitsky: It feels like something has changed internally at Google.

Lenny Rachitsky：感觉谷歌内部发生了一些变化。

It feels like things are starting to really work, especially on the AI consumer side.

感觉事情开始真正发挥作用，尤其是在人工智能消费者方面。

So in terms of the growth, is Nano Banana the source of a lot of this recent growth or is there something else?

那么就增长而言，纳米香蕉是近期增长的主要来源还是还有其他原因？

Robby Stein: People are really excited about Nano Banana to be clear, very much so, but I think also people are recognizing that there's just so many cool things that you can do across the Google set of products and they've become quite powerful.

Robby Stein：说实话，人们对 Nano Banana 感到非常兴奋，非常兴奋，但我认为人们也认识到，在 Google 产品系列中可以做很多很酷的事情，而且它们已经变得非常强大。

I'm always shocked, even for things in search, people, we think they're very obvious.

我总是感到震惊，即使对于搜索中的东西，我们也认为它们非常明显。

They sit right in the core search experience and then on X, I'll go look and like, "Oh, I just found out about this AI thing," and it seems very obvious, but I think a lot of people are just discovering quite how powerful these tools are.

它们位于核心搜索体验中，然后在 X 上，我会看看，“哦，我刚刚发现了这个人工智能的东西，”这似乎很明显，但我认为很多人刚刚发现这些工具有多么强大。

Lenny Rachitsky: Now.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：现在。

So to go one level deeper, to your point, there's been all this incredible tech.

因此，更深入地说，就您而言，存在着所有这些令人难以置信的技术。

You guys wrote the original transformers paper that have powered so much of the innovation and it's just like, "Where's Google been?

你们写了最初的变形金刚论文，为如此多的创新提供了动力，就像，“谷歌在哪里？

And actually, why aren't they building the thing that's winning?"

事实上，他们为什么不打造能够获胜的产品呢？”

Lenny Rachitsky: What has changed?

莱尼·拉奇茨基：什么改变了？

Is it just like, okay, has there been major reorgs?

是不是就像，好吧，有没有重大重组？

Has there been new leaders put in place?

是否有新的领导人就任？

Is there just a new philosophy in the past couple of years that have led to this moment where Gemini is now the top app in the world?

过去几年是否有一种新的理念导致 Gemini 现在成为世界顶级应用程序？

Robby Stein: Yeah, I mean, look, I've been to Google now, this is my second time at Google, so I started at Google in 2007, done a bunch of things in between, and I've been back at Google now, so I can't speak to that whole period for many, many years back to today.

罗比·斯坦：是的，我的意思是，你看，我现在已经去过谷歌了，这是我第二次来谷歌，所以我从 2007 年开始在谷歌工作，期间做了很多事情，现在我又回到了谷歌，所以从今天开始很多很多年我都无法谈论整个时期。

But what I can tell you about what I'm feeling now is just an incredible sense of focus and urgency to deliver great products quickly.

但我可以告诉你的是，我现在的感受是一种令人难以置信的专注感和快速交付优质产品的紧迫感。

I think that that is in part leadership for sure.

我认为这在一定程度上肯定是领导力。

I think the people who are, we work very closely with our partners at DeepMind and Google DeepMind.

我认为我们与 DeepMind 和 Google DeepMind 的合作伙伴密切合作。

We work very closely obviously across the organization and there's just an incredible group of people and also an incredible group of researchers and technical thinkers who've been thinking about this for a while.

显然，我们整个组织的工作非常密切，有一群令人难以置信的人员，还有一群令人难以置信的研究人员和技术思想家，他们已经思考这个问题一段时间了。

When you have that energy, and I think the product teams and the tech, the research groups are working really closely together, we're able to move and we're getting a lot done.

当你有这种能量时，我认为产品团队和技术、研究小组正在紧密合作，我们就能够采取行动，并且能够完成很多工作。

Robby Stein: I don't think there's any one thing that has happened.

罗比·斯坦：我认为没有发生任何一件事。

I think that a lot of times people ascribe a lot of momentum to a one time change or a single person.

我认为很多时候人们将很大的动力归因于一次性的改变或一个人。

I find a lot of this is actually this compounding effect when you think about just every month ruthlessly improving the product or the models and just every day getting better, and then it just hits this tipping point where people just like it, they use it more, they enjoy it.

我发现很多这实际上是这种复合效应，当你想到每个月都在无情地改进产品或模型，并且每天都变得更好，然后它就达到了人们喜欢它、他们更多地使用它、他们享受它的临界点。

And that's more of the feeling that I've had is just we've had, I think the right investment and focus and then it just hit a moment where people are seeing the effects of that now.

我的更多感觉就是我们已经拥有了，我认为正确的投资和关注，然后就到了人们现在看到其影响的时刻。

Lenny Rachitsky: As ChatGPT emerged over the past couple of years, as Perplexity emerged and all these other chatbots, a lot of people were just like, "Google is dead.

Lenny Rachitsky：随着过去几年 ChatGPT 的出现、Perplexity 和所有其他聊天机器人的出现，很多人都在想，“谷歌已经死了。

Nobody wants to sit through search results and click links.

没有人愿意坐下来浏览搜索结果并点击链接。

Why not just get your answer right there?"

为什么不直接在那里得到答案呢？”

Lenny Rachitsky: And it feels like that's not at all happening.

Lenny Rachitsky：感觉这根本没有发生。

It feels like you guys are doing just fine.

感觉你们做得很好。

What can you share about just the, I don't know, the state of Google search specifically, and then we'll talk about AI Mode.

您能具体分享一下我不知道的谷歌搜索现状吗？然后我们将讨论人工智能模式。

Just how is traffic going, how is search going considering all these things are out there, and just what are you seeing in the data since the launch of say ChatGPT?

流量进展如何，考虑到所有这些东西，搜索进展如何，以及自 ChatGPT 推出以来您在数据中看到了什么？

Robby Stein: Yeah.

罗比·斯坦因：是的。

Well, what's interesting is people come to search for just ridiculously wide set of things, like all kinds of things.

有趣的是，人们开始寻找范围广泛的东西，比如各种各样的东西。

They want specific phone number, they want a price for something, they want to get directions, they want to find a payment web page for their taxes.

他们想要特定的电话号码，他们想要某物的价格，他们想要获得方向，他们想要找到税款的支付网页。

Every possible thing you can imagine.

你能想象到的一切可能。

I think the vastness of that is underappreciated by many people.

我认为许多人都低估了它的巨大性。

And what we see is that it's not changing.

我们看到的是它没有改变。

AI hasn't really changed those foundational needs in many ways, and what we're finding is that AI is expansionary, and so there's actually just more and more questions being asked and curiosity that can be fulfilled now with AI.

人工智能并没有在很多方面真正改变这些基本需求，我们发现人工智能是具有扩展性的，因此实际上现在有越来越多的问题和好奇心可以通过人工智能来满足。

And so that's where you get the growth.

这就是你获得增长的地方。

Robby Stein: All the core Google search isn't really changing, in my opinion.

Robby Stein：在我看来，所有核心的谷歌搜索并没有真正改变。

We're not seeing that, but you're getting this expansion moment.

我们没有看到这一点，但你正在经历这个扩张时刻。

What we're seeing is a few examples is you can now take a picture of something and ask about anything you see.

我们看到的几个例子是，您现在可以拍摄某物的照片并询问您所看到的任何内容。

And Google Lens, one of the fastest growing products out there, it's growing 70% year-over-year increase in visual searches, which is already at a massive scale.

Google Lens 是目前增长最快的产品之一，其视觉搜索量同比增长 70%，已经达到了大规模。

It's billions and billions and billions of searching in that way.

以这种方式进行了数十亿、数十亿、数十亿的搜索。

Robby Stein: But you can take a picture of your shoes, say, "Where can I buy this?"

罗比·斯坦因：但是你可以给你的鞋子拍张照片，然后说：“我在哪里可以买到这个？”

Robby Stein: Or take a picture of your homework, say, "I'm stuck on question two."

罗比·斯坦因：或者给你的作业拍张照片，说：“我被第二个问题困住了。”

Robby Stein: And then just take a picture of your bookshelf and say, "What are the books I should get based on these books?" And AI can help you with those things now, just an example of I think why there's so much growth left and why we're so excited.

罗比·斯坦：然后拍一张你的书架的照片，然后说：“根据这些书我应该买哪些书？”人工智能现在可以帮助你解决这些问题，这只是我认为为什么还有如此大的增长以及为什么我们如此兴奋的一个例子。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, so you're not seeing the death of search.

Lenny Rachitsky：好的，所以你没有看到搜索的消亡。

Lenny Rachitsky: And along the same lines, you guys recently launched AI Mode, which I don't think enough people are talking about.

Lenny Rachitsky：同样，你们最近推出了人工智能模式，我认为没有足够多的人在谈论它。

I think you get there at google.com/ai, is that the right URL?

我想您可以访问 google.com/ai，这是正确的网址吗？

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, cool.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的，酷。

I've been playing with it as we were prepping for this conversation.

当我们准备这次谈话时，我一直在玩它。

It's really incredible.

实在是太不可思议了。

I asked it what is the best newsletter on product and growth and it's very smart.

我问它关于产品和增长的最佳时事通讯是什么，它非常聪明。

Said Lenny's Newsletter.

莱尼的时事通讯说。

So that's my eval.

这就是我的评估。

Robby Stein: Fantastic.

罗比·斯坦因：太棒了。

Okay, one of one, perfect eval.

好的，其中之一，完美的评估。

Lenny Rachitsky: It's perfect.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太完美了。

Also, just if you go to it, there's these recommendations for things to ask it that are just like, "Wait, how did you know I care about this stuff?" So it's like, "Help me switch to product management," just on the front page.

另外，如果你去那里，就会有一些关于要问的事情的建议，就像“等等，你怎么知道我关心这些东西？”就像是“帮我切换到产品管理”，就在首页上。

Lenny Rachitsky: I'm like, "How did you know?" And it tells you that it's based on your Google activity.

Lenny Rachitsky：我说，“你怎么知道？”它会告诉您这是基于您的 Google 活动。

Talk about just what people should know about AI Mode, maybe what they don't really understand about the power of this thing.

谈谈人们应该了解人工智能模式的哪些内容，也许他们并不真正了解这个东西的力量。

Robby Stein: I can tell you there's three big components to how we can think about AI search and the next generation of search experiences.

Robby Stein：我可以告诉你，我们如何思考人工智能搜索和下一代搜索体验有三个主要组成部分。

One is obviously AI Overviews, which are the quick and fast AI you get at the top of the page many people have seen, and that's obviously been something growing very, very quickly.

其中之一显然是人工智能概述，这是许多人在页面顶部看到的快速人工智能，这显然是一种发展非常非常快的东西。

This is when you ask a natural question, you just put it into Google, you get this AI now, it's really helpful for people.

当你问一个自然的问题时，你只需将其输入谷歌，你现在就得到了这个人工智能，它对人们真的很有帮助。

Robby Stein: The second is around multimodal.

Robby Stein：第二个是关于多式联运。

This is visual search and lens.

这就是视觉搜索和镜头。

That's the other big piece.

那是另一块大块。

You go to the camera in the Google app and that's seeing a bunch of growth.

你打开谷歌应用程序中的相机，就会看到大量的增长。

And then really with AI Mode, it really brings it all together.

然后真正通过人工智能模式，它真正将所有这些结合在一起。

It creates an end-to-end frontier search experience on state-of-the-art models to really truly let you ask anything of Google search.

它在最先进的模型上创建了端到端的前沿搜索体验，真正让您可以询问 Google 搜索的任何问题。

You can go back and forth, you can have a conversation and it taps into and is specially designed for search.

你可以来回走动，你可以进行对话，它专为搜索而设计。

What does that mean?

这意味着什么？

Robby Stein: And one of the cool things that I think it does is it's able to understand all of this incredibly rich information that's within Google.

Robby Stein：我认为它所做的最酷的事情之一是它能够理解 Google 内所有这些极其丰富的信息。

There's 50 billion products in the Google shopping graph, for instance.

例如，Google 购物图中有 500 亿种产品。

They're updated 2 billion times an hour by merchants with live prices.

商家每小时更新 20 亿次实时价格。

You have 250 million places in maps.

地图上有 2.5 亿个地点。

You have all of the finance information, and not to mention, you have the entire context of the web and how to connect to it so that you can get context but then go deeper.

您拥有所有财务信息，更不用说，您拥有网络的整个上下文以及如何连接到它，以便您可以获得上下文，然后进行更深入的了解。

You put all of that into this brain that is effectively this way to talk to Google and get at this knowledge.

你把所有这些都放入大脑中，这实际上是与谷歌交谈并获取这些知识的方式。

And that's really what you can do now.

这确实是您现在可以做的。

Robby Stein: You can ask anything on your mind and it'll use all of this information to hopefully give you super high quality and informed information as best as we can, and you can use it directly at this google.com/ai.

Robby Stein：您可以提出您的任何想法，它会使用所有这些信息，希望尽可能为您提供超高质量和知情的信息，您可以直接在 google.com/ai 上使用它。

But it's also been integrated into our core experiences too.

但它也已融入我们的核心体验中。

We announced you can get to it really easily if you can ask follow-up questions of AI Overviews right into AI Mode now.

我们宣布，如果您现在可以在 AI 模式中提出 AI 概述的后续问题，您就可以非常轻松地了解它。

Same for the lens stuff.

镜头的东西也一样。

Take a picture takes you to AI Modes, you can have this back, you can ask follow-up questions and go there too.

拍照会带你进入人工智能模式，你可以把它拿回来，你可以提出后续问题，然后也去那里。

So it's increasingly integrated experience into the core part of the product.

所以它越来越将体验融入到产品的核心部分。

Lenny Rachitsky: I imagine much of this is wait and see how people use it, but what's the vision of how all these things connect?

Lenny Rachitsky：我想这很大程度上是在等待，看看人们如何使用它，但是所有这些东西如何连接的愿景是什么？

Is the idea continue having this AI Mode on the side, AI Overviews at the top and then this multimodal experience, or is there a vision of somehow pushing these together even more over time?

这个想法是继续将这种人工智能模式放在一边，将人工智能概述放在顶部，然后是这种多模式体验，还是有一个愿景，随着时间的推移，以某种方式将这些更加融合在一起？

Robby Stein: I think there's an opportunity for these to come closer together.

Robby Stein：我认为这些有机会更加紧密地联系在一起。

I think that's what AI Mode represents, at least for the core AI experiences, but I think of them is very complimentary to the core search product.

我认为这就是人工智能模式所代表的意义，至少对于核心人工智能体验来说是如此，但我认为它们对核心搜索产品非常有利。

You should be able to not have to think about where you're asking a question ultimately, you just go to Google.

你应该能够不必考虑最终在哪里提出问题，你只需去谷歌即可。

Today, if you put in whatever you want, we're actually starting to use much of the power behind AI Mode right in AI Overviews.

今天，如果你输入任何你想要的内容，我们实际上就开始在人工智能概述中使用人工智能模式背后的大部分功能。

So you can just ask really hard, you could put a five sentence question right into Google search.

所以你可以非常努力地问，你可以在谷歌搜索中输入一个五句话的问题。

You can try it and then it should trigger AI at the top.

你可以尝试一下，然后它应该会触发顶部的AI。

It's a preview, and then you can go deeper into AI Mode and have this back and forth.

这是一个预览，然后您可以更深入地进入 AI 模式并来回进行此操作。

So that's how these things connect.

这就是这些事物之间的联系。

Robby Stein: Same for your camera.

Robby Stein：你的相机也一样。

So if you take a picture of something, "What's this plant?" Or, "How do I buy these shoes?" It should take you to an AI little preview.

因此，如果你给某样东西拍照，“这是什么植物？”或者，“我如何购买这双鞋？”它应该会带您进行 AI 小预览。

And then if you go deeper, again, it's powered by AI Mode.

如果你再深入一点，你会发现它是由人工智能模式提供支持的。

You can have that back and forth, so you shouldn't have to think about that.

你可以来来回回，所以你不必考虑这个。

It should feel like a consistent simple product experience ultimately, but obviously this is a new thing for us, and so we wanted to start it in a way that people could use and give us feedback with something like a direct entry point like google.com/ai.

最终感觉应该是一种一致的简单产品体验，但显然这对我们来说是一个新事物，因此我们希望以一种人们可以使用的方式开始它，并向我们提供反馈，例如像 google.com/ai 这样的直接入口点。

Lenny Rachitsky: I recently had Brian Balfour on the podcast and he showed this quote that's really stuck with me that I think about as you talk about all this, it was by Alex Rampell, this idea that startups is a game of getting distribution before incumbents can innovate fast enough.

Lenny Rachitsky：我最近在播客上看到了 Brian Balfour，他引用了 Alex Rampell 的一句话，这句话让我印象深刻，这句话是 Alex Rampell 说的，初创公司是一场在现有企业能够足够快地创新之前获得分销的游戏。

Lenny Rachitsky: And it feels like you guys are finally there where it's like, "Oh man, now here comes Google." I don't know if I have a question here, but it just feels like there's been all this time for people to find distribution, and now it's like, okay, now Google is coming.

Lenny Rachitsky：感觉你们终于到了“天哪，现在谷歌来了。”我不知道我是否有问题，但感觉人们一直在寻找发行版，现在就像，好吧，现在谷歌来了。

Robby Stein: What we found is that people are asking these questions in Google.

Robby Stein：我们发现人们在 Google 上问这些问题。

They're trying to get this out of Google.

他们正试图将其从谷歌中删除。

And so if you can just have an AI that's powerful enough to answer a really hard calculation someone's trying to figure out, or take a picture of multiple choice homework question for a chemistry question, people are doing this.

因此，如果你有一个足够强大的人工智能来回答某人试图解决的非常困难的计算，或者为化学问题拍摄多项选择作业问题的照片，人们就会这样做。

And so now that you have this really sophisticated AI that's based on our frontier models, we can just handle increasingly more and more stuff for people and so hopefully that's the more natural on ramp here.

所以现在你有了这个基于我们前沿模型的非常复杂的人工智能，我们可以为人们处理越来越多的东西，所以希望这在这里更自然。

And then we just need to make it easy enough for people to use, because these are new products, and people are used to using Google in a specific way.

然后我们只需要让人们足够容易使用，因为这些是新产品，人们习惯以特定的方式使用谷歌。

Robby Stein: They type in keywords, we call it sometimes keyword ease, but you can actually use natural language in Google.

Robby Stein：他们输入关键字，我们有时称之为关键字轻松，但实际上您可以在 Google 中使用自然语言。

That's the biggest shift.

这是最大的转变。

We're seeing people asking real long, hard, complex questions.

我们看到人们提出了很长、很难、复杂的问题。

You just don't think, "Oh, I can go to Google and type in what's a great place for a date night?

你只是不会想，“哦，我可以去谷歌输入什么是约会之夜的好地方？

I already went to these four restaurants.

我已经去过这四家餐厅了。

I'm looking for outdoor dining and my friend has this allergy." You could put that into Google.

我正在寻找户外用餐场所，而我的朋友有这种过敏症。”你可以把它输入谷歌。

And I think that's the kind of thing that we're excited to continue to make easy for people.

我认为这就是我们很高兴继续为人们提供便利的事情。

Lenny Rachitsky: It's interesting, and we've come around to back in the day there was Ask Jeeves, which was this whole just ask a question as if you're asking a human and then it'll give you a really good answer.

Lenny Rachitsky：这很有趣，我们回顾了 Ask Jeeves 的时代，整个过程只是问一个问题，就像你在问一个人一样，然后它会给你一个非常好的答案。

Lenny Rachitsky: And then we moved into Google just, "No, no, just type the thing you want and figure out how Google likes it."

Lenny Rachitsky：然后我们就进入了谷歌，“不，不，只要输入你想要的东西，然后弄清楚谷歌如何喜欢它。”

Lenny Rachitsky: And now we're back to, "Okay, just ask your question and it'll give you a really good answer."

Lenny Rachitsky：现在我们回到“好吧，只要问你的问题，它就会给你一个非常好的答案。”

Robby Stein: Yeah, Ask Jeeves was surprisingly prescient on that, huh?

Robby Stein：是的，Ask Jeeves 在这方面很有先见之明，不是吗？

They had material, they had something way before its time that we think looks to rally around now.

他们有材料，他们有一些超前的东西，我们认为现在看起来可以团结起来。

Lenny Rachitsky: Oh, man.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：哦，伙计。

What's your take on this whole rise of AEO, GEO, which is this evolution of SEO?

您对 AEO、GEO 的兴起（即 SEO 的演变）有何看法？

I'm guessing your answer is going to be just create awesome stuff and don't worry about it, but there's a whole skill of getting to show up in these answers.

我猜你的答案只是创造出很棒的东西，不用担心，但在这些答案中展现出一整套技巧。

Thoughts on what people should be thinking about here?

人们在这里应该考虑什么？

Robby Stein: Sure.

罗比·斯坦因：当然。

I mean, I can give you a little bit of under the hood how this stuff works because I do think that helps people understand what to do, but when our AI constructs a response, it's actually trying to, it does something called query fan-out where the model uses Google search as a tool to find to do other querying.

我的意思是，我可以向您介绍一下这些东西的工作原理，因为我确实认为这可以帮助人们理解要做什么，但是当我们的人工智能构建响应时，它实际上正在尝试这样做，它会执行称为查询扇出的操作，其中模型使用 Google 搜索作为查找工具来进行其他查询。

Maybe you're asking about specific shoes, it'll add up and append all of these other queries like maybe dozens of queries and start searching basically in the background.

也许您正在询问特定的鞋子，它会添加并附加所有其他查询，例如可能有数十个查询，并基本上在后台开始搜索。

And it'll make requests to our data back end, so if it needs real time information, it'll go do that.

它会向我们的数据后端发出请求，因此如果它需要实时信息，它就会这样做。

And so at the end of the day, actually something searching, it's not a person, but there's searches happening and then each search is paired with content.

因此，归根结底，实际上是在搜索某些东西，它不是一个人，但是正在发生搜索，然后每次搜索都会与内容配对。

And so if for a given search your web page is designed to be extremely helpful and you can look up Google's human rater guidelines and read, it's a very long document that's been thoughtfully crafted for decades now around what makes great information.

因此，如果对于给定的搜索，您的网页被设计得非常有帮助，并且您可以查找 Google 的人类评分者指南并阅读，那么这是一份非常长的文档，几十年来一直围绕什么构成了重要的信息而精心制作。

Robby Stein: This is something Google has studied more than anyone, and it's like, do you satisfy the user intent, what they're trying to get?

Robby Stein：这是谷歌比任何人都研究得更多的事情，就像，你是否满足用户的意图，他们想要得到什么？

Do you have sources?

你有消息来源吗？

Do you cite your information?

你引用你的信息吗？

Is it original or is it repeating things that have been repeated 500 times?

是原创还是重复已经重复了500遍的事情？

And there's these best practices that I think still do largely apply because it's going to ultimately come down to an AI is doing research and finding information.

我认为这些最佳实践仍然在很大程度上适用，因为它最终将归结为人工智能正在进行研究和查找信息。

And a lot of the core signals, is this a good piece of information for the question?

还有很多核心信号，这对于这个问题来说是一个很好的信息吗？

They're still valid, they're still extremely valid and extremely useful, and that will produce a response where you're more likely to show up in those experiences now.

它们仍然有效，仍然非常有效且非常有用，这将产生一种反应，使您现在更有可能出现在这些体验中。

Robby Stein: I think the only thing I would give advice to would be think about what people are using AI for.

Robby Stein：我认为我唯一能给出的建议就是思考人们使用人工智能的目的。

I mentioned this as an expansionary moment.

我提到这是一个扩张时刻。

It seems to be that people are asking a lot more questions now, particularly around things like advice, or how to, or more complex needs versus maybe more simple things.

人们现在似乎提出了更多的问题，特别是围绕诸如建议、如何做、或更复杂的需求与可能更简单的事情之类的问题。

And so if I were a creator, I would be thinking, what kind of content is someone using AI for?

所以如果我是一个创作者，我会想，有人使用人工智能来创作什么样的内容？

And then how could my content be the best for that given set of needs now?

那么我的内容如何才能最适合现在的特定需求呢？

And I think that's a really tangible way of thinking about it.

我认为这是一种非常切实的思考方式。

Lenny Rachitsky: It's interesting your point about how it goes in searches.

Lenny Rachitsky：关于它在搜索中的表现，你的观点很有趣。

When you use it, it's searching a thousand pages or something like that.

当你使用它时，它会搜索一千个页面或类似的东西。

Is that just a different core mechanic to how other popular chatbots work because the others don't go search a bunch of websites as you're asking?

这是否只是与其他流行聊天机器人工作方式不同的核心机制，因为其他聊天机器人不会按照您的要求搜索一堆网站？

Robby Stein: Yeah.

罗比·斯坦因：是的。

This is something that we've done uniquely for our AI.

这是我们为人工智能所做的独特的事情。

It obviously has the ability to use parametric memory and thinking and reasoning and all the things a model does, but one of the things that makes it unique for designing it specifically for informational tasks, we wanted to be the best at informational needs, that's what's Google's all about, and so how does it find information?

显然，它具有使用参数记忆、思维和推理以及模型所做的所有事情的能力，但它在专门为信息任务设计时的独特之处之一是，我们希望在信息需求方面做到最好，这就是谷歌的全部内容，那么它是如何找到信息的呢？

How does it know if information is right?

它如何知道信息是否正确？

How does it check its work?

它如何检查其工作？

These are all things that we built into the model, and so there is a unique access to Google.

这些都是我们构建到模型中的东西，因此可以通过独特的方式访问 Google。

Obviously, it's part of Google search, so it's Google search signals everything from spam, what's content that could be spam?

显然，它是 Google 搜索的一部分，因此 Google 搜索会发出来自垃圾邮件的所有信号，哪些内容可能是垃圾邮件？

And we don't want to probably use in a response all the way to, wow, this is the most authoritative helpful piece of information.

我们不想在回复中一直使用“哇，这是最权威、最有用的信息”。

We're going to link to it and we're going to explain, hey, according to this website, check out that information and then you're going to go probably go see that yourself.

我们将链接到它，我们将解释，嘿，根据这个网站，查看该信息，然后您可能会自己去看。

That's how we've thought about designing this.

这就是我们设计这个的想法。

Lenny Rachitsky: You've worked on a lot of AI products at this point, and it's not just Google or Artifact and Instagram, you did a lot of AI stuff.

Lenny Rachitsky：目前您已经开发了很多人工智能产品，不仅仅是谷歌、Artifact 和 Instagram，您还开发了很多人工智能产品。

What's something you've learned about building AI products that you find maybe people don't truly understand, maybe something that's surprised you by building successful AI products?

在构建人工智能产品的过程中，您发现哪些东西可能是人们无法真正理解的，或者是构建成功的人工智能产品时让您感到惊讶的东西？

Robby Stein: I think the most recent one, and this is true, something even within the last week or two, is that it's so obvious how human-like the interface is becoming with how you can communicate and steer AI.

罗比·斯坦（Robby Stein）：我认为最近的一个，这是事实，甚至在过去一两周内，就是很明显，随着你如何沟通和引导人工智能，界面变得多么像人类。

I think it used to be even just months back that you had to do a lot of work to get the AI to do the thing you're trying to get it to do, right?

我认为就在几个月前，你还必须做很多工作才能让人工智能做你想让它做的事情，对吧？

You had to do these incantations, you had to prompt in a really specific way.

你必须执行这些咒语，你必须以非常具体的方式提示。

People would have all these hacks like, "Hey, act like you're a coach and you do these things," and you have to really push it, or to use a tool more on the technical side.

人们会有所有这些技巧，比如“嘿，表现得像个教练，你做这些事情”，你必须真正推动它，或者在技术方面更多地使用工具。

You had to do post-training, you had to take this foundational model and you had to show it data, you had to train it and actually update its weights to do more sophisticated things.

你必须进行后期训练，你必须采用这个基础模型，你必须向它显示数据，你必须训练它并实际更新它的权重以完成更复杂的事情。

Robby Stein: Tell it, "Hey, here's documentation for an API.

Robby Stein：告诉它，“嘿，这是 API 的文档。

If you ever have a problem, ping this API.

如果您遇到问题，请 ping 此 API。

Here's the data," as if it's an engineer that you had that you could talk to and it would have no idea what to do with that, or it would have some idea and wouldn't really do it.

这是数据，”就好像它是一个你可以与之交谈的工程师，但它不知道如何处理这些数据，或者它有一些想法但不会真正去做。

Robby Stein: But increasingly, you can just use language.

罗比·斯坦：但越来越多的情况下，你可以只使用语言。

Almost if you were to write up an order, you could be like, "Wow, I'm a new startup.

几乎如果你要写一份订单，你可能会说，“哇，我是一家新成立的公司。

Here's my data internally.

这是我的内部数据。

Here are the APIs to it.

以下是它的 API。

Here's the schema and the URL.

这是架构和 URL。

Here's when to use it.

这是使用它的时候。

By the way, make sure that if you get this kind of a question, you really make sure to get it right." And that'll end up doing a lot in the model.

顺便说一句，如果你遇到这类问题，请确保你确实答对了。”这最终会在模型中做很多事情。

Robby Stein: The model's been now encoded to be able to say, "Okay, I'm going to use more reasoning or thinking budget for that kind of a question."

Robby Stein：该模型现在已被编码为能够说：“好吧，我将使用更多的推理或思考预算来解决此类问题。”

Robby Stein: Or, "I'm going to use tools or code, use code execution in order to connect to this API I'm told about." That's a relatively new thing.

Robby Stein：或者，“我将使用工具或代码，使用代码执行来连接到我听说的这个 API。”这是一个相对较新的事情。

So I think it's going to open up a lot of this democratization of accessing these models and building incredible things because you don't even need to do a lot.

所以我认为这将在很大程度上实现访问这些模型和构建令人难以置信的东西的民主化，因为你甚至不需要做很多事情。

To get the most sophisticated outcomes increasingly, I don't think you need to do a lot of this heavy duty fine-tuning.

为了越来越获得最复杂的结果，我认为您不需要进行大量这种繁重的微调。

Lenny Rachitsky: It makes me think about, I had this recent guest, Nesrine Changuel, on the podcast.

Lenny Rachitsky：这让我想到，我最近在播客上邀请了一位嘉宾，Nesrine Changuel。

She was a PM at Google, she worked on Google Meet, she was a delight PM working on at making products more delightful.

她曾是 Google 的产品经理，曾参与 Google Meet 的工作，她是一位致力于让产品变得更令人愉悦的令人愉悦的产品经理。

And she talked about the reason Google Meet did so well and is now feels like it's killing Zoom is they compared the experience of Google meet to a human meeting versus making it the best possible video conference, make this as good as a human experience.

她谈到了 Google Meet 表现如此出色的原因，现在感觉它正在杀死 Zoom，因为他们将 Google Meet 的体验与人类会议进行了比较，而不是使其成为最好的视频会议，使其与人类体验一样好。

And that's interesting what you're talking about, how that's almost the goal here with AI is just make you feel like you're just talking to a person.

你所说的很有趣，人工智能的目标几乎就是让你感觉你只是在和一个人说话。

Lenny Rachitsky: Might be obvious, but think about that.

Lenny Rachitsky：可能是显而易见的，但请考虑一下。

Okay, let me zoom out and talk about, and let's talk about just broader lessons you've learned over the course of your career.

好吧，让我把目光放远一点，谈谈你在职业生涯中学到的更广泛的经验教训。

You've built a lot of very successful products, which I've shared in the intro at this point.

您已经构建了许多非常成功的产品，我已经在介绍中分享了这些产品。

Robby Stein: Many also on the other side of the spectrum, we got the whole portfolio.

罗比·斯坦（Robby Stein）：许多人也在光谱的另一边，我们得到了整个投资组合。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, perfect.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的，完美。

We'll talk about some of that.

我们将讨论其中的一些内容。

I asked you as we were getting ready for this conversation, what's one thing you wanted to get across in this conversation?

当我们准备这次谈话时，我问你，你想在这次谈话中表达什么？

What's something you think would be really helpful for product builders to hear to help them build more successful products?

您认为哪些内容对产品构建者真正有帮助，可以帮助他们构建更成功的产品？

And you used this phrase: embodying relentless improvement.

你用了这句话：体现不懈的改进。

Can you just talk about that?

你能简单谈谈吗？

What does that mean?

这意味着什么？

Why is this so important?

为什么这如此重要？

Robby Stein: Of course, I mean, I think that you need to be the physical manifestation of two pieces of things.

罗比·斯坦：当然，我的意思是，我认为你需要成为两件事物的物理表现。

One is just relentlessness, just complete effort, but is always exerted in a direction of positive productivity.

一种是坚持不懈，全力以赴，但始终朝着积极生产力的方向努力。

And then the second is make things better.

第二个是让事情变得更好。

You have to always make things better, you're never content.

你必须总是让事情变得更好，你永远不会满足。

And I think this actually came out of a story, a little bit of a funny story where I was at Instagram at the time doing a big all team meeting, one of my first, and they had this icebreaker, what's one word to describe yourself?

我认为这实际上来自一个故事，一个有点有趣的故事，当时我在 Instagram 上召开了一次大型全团队会议，这是我的第一次会议，他们开了一个破冰船，用什么词来形容你自己？

Robby Stein: And so in the backstage area, I texted my wife really quick.

罗比·斯坦：所以在后台区域，我很快给我的妻子发了短信。

I was like, "Hey, just one word to describe me, first thing that comes to your mind."

我当时想，“嘿，用一个词来形容我，你首先想到的就是这个。”

And she just wrote back, "Dissatisfied.": I was chuckling in the back room because I was first of all kind of offended because I was like, "It's not loving, caring, something good?" And then I saw her little bubble thing.

她只是回信说：“不满意。”：我在后面的房间里咯咯地笑，因为我首先有点被冒犯了，因为我想，“这不是爱、关怀、好的东西吗？”然后我看到了她的小泡泡。

And she just wrote back, "Dissatisfied.": She's like, "Okay, there's more." And then she wrote me this really thoughtful thing that was like, "It's not that you're just unhappy.

她只是回信说：“不满意。”：她就像是，“好吧，还有更多。”然后她给我写了一封非常深思熟虑的话，就像是，“这并不是因为你不快乐。

It's like you want the world to be better.

就像你希望世界变得更好一样。

You're driven out of a deep desire.

你被一种深深的欲望驱赶了。

It's that you feel this sense of dissatisfaction with what the world gives you.

而是你对世界给予你的东西感到不满。

You want to make it better, and you're pushed and motivated to do that."

你想让事情变得更好，你就会受到推动和激励去做到这一点。”

And she just wrote back, "Dissatisfied.": And I thought about that after.

她只是回信说：“不满意。”：之后我就想到了这一点。

And it wasn't until we built a bunch of products, some that didn't do well, some that have had a lot of really large success now, billions of people use them, where it felt like one of the big differences, obviously a lot of it is just the conditions of the product and a little bit of luck here and there too.

直到我们开发了一堆产品，有些做得不好，有些现在已经取得了很大的成功，有数十亿人使用它们，这感觉就像是一个很大的差异，显然很大一部分只是产品的条件以及到处都有一点运气。

But for the things that went well, there was always this spirit of just we're going to get it eventually if we just make two more moves to make it better.

但对于进展顺利的事情，总是有这样的精神：只要我们再采取两次行动，让事情变得更好，我们最终就会得到它。

And then eventually, as I talked about before earlier in our conversation, you get this tipping point where it just tips over into being net useful to people because of just that amount of compounding effort that you put into something because you're just always so...

然后最终，正如我之前在我们的谈话中谈到的那样，你会得到这个转折点，它会转变成对人们有用的，因为你在某件事上投入了大量的复合努力，因为你总是那么......

You're the harshest critic and the most dissatisfied person in the room about your own work basically.

基本上，你是房间里最严厉的批评家和对你自己的工作最不满意的人。

And she just wrote back, "Dissatisfied.": And I think that's really meaningful.

她只是回信说：“不满意。”：我认为这真的很有意义。

And there's this other incredible story that Tony Fadell told on a TED Talk 10 years ago.

十年前，托尼·法德尔 (Tony Fadell) 在 TED 演讲中讲述了另一个令人难以置信的故事。

You can look it up.

你可以查一下。

I think it's something around Think Younger as a title.

我认为这与“Think Younger”这个标题有关。

And he talks about what it means that as we grow up in age and become grownups, I have two little kids so that's something I think about a lot.

他谈到了当我们长大并成为成年人时意味着什么，我有两个小孩，所以这是我经常思考的事情。

We habituate to everything.

我们习惯了一切。

We accept and we tolerate what the world gives us everywhere, and we just go, "Oh, that kind of sucks.

我们接受并容忍世界各地给予我们的东西，然后我们就会说：“哦，那太糟糕了。

Oh, well," we shrug our shoulders and we move on.

哦，好吧，”我们耸耸肩，然后继续前进。

And she just wrote back, "Dissatisfied.": But if you don't do that and you ask, "Why?

她只是回信说：“不满意。”：但如果你不这样做，你就会问：“为什么？

This sucks, why am I tolerating this and how do I make it better?" He has this incredible story about going grocery shopping, and he goes on for 10 minutes about this story almost it felt like where he talks about getting a piece of fruit like a plum or a peach, and how it has that sticker on it and it's got that sticker and who put that sticker there?

这太糟糕了，为什么我要忍受这个，我该如何让它变得更好？”他有一个关于去杂货店购物的令人难以置信的故事，他用了 10 分钟讲述这个故事，几乎感觉就像他在谈论得到一块像李子或桃子这样的水果，以及它是如何贴上这个标签的，它有那个标签，是谁把那个标签贴在那里的？

And she just wrote back, "Dissatisfied.": And then when you get home, you take your fruit out of your bag, you're ready to eat it, you're all excited, you stick your thumb under the sticker, it punctures the flesh.

她只是回信说：“不满意。”：然后当你回到家时，你从包里拿出水果，准备吃它，你很兴奋，你把拇指伸到贴纸下面，它刺破了果肉。

He goes into just incredible detail about how it punctures the flesh of the fruit.

他详细介绍了它如何刺穿果肉。

The sticker comes off now, the fruit's bleeding, then you flick the sticker.

现在贴纸脱落了，水果流血了，然后你弹开贴纸。

The sticker misses the garbage, you bend over and pick it up, you put the sticker back in.

贴纸漏掉了垃圾，你弯腰捡起来，然后把贴纸放回去。

And she just wrote back, "Dissatisfied.": And I was like, "Wow, that is embodying this mentality of just why is this here?

她只是回信说，“不满意。”：我当时想，“哇，这体现了这种心态：为什么会在这里？

How can this be better?" And I think the best product people, the best thinkers in the space, that's how they think, in my opinion.

这怎么能更好呢？”我认为，在我看来，最好的产品人员、该领域最好的思想家就是他们的想法。

Lenny Rachitsky: I imagine there are many examples of you doing this in the many products you worked on.

Lenny Rachitsky：我想在您开发的许多产品中，有很多这样的例子。

Is there one that comes to mind as a good example of this inaction of this actually working really well and delivering something really huge?

有没有一个很好的例子来说明这种不作为实际上运作良好并提供了真正巨大的东西？

Robby Stein: I mean, honestly, a big thing is working on AI Mode.

Robby Stein：老实说，我的意思是，AI 模式是一件大事。

I think a lot of it was we saw in AI Overviews that people were trying to ask harder questions and we weren't able to answer a bunch of them, or AI Overviews just didn't show up.

我认为，我们在人工智能概述中看到，人们试图提出更难的问题，而我们无法回答其中的很多问题，或者人工智能概述根本没有出现。

And so a bunch of us sat around and we're like, "Why can't you just do this for everything?"

所以我们一群人围坐在一起，心想，“为什么你不能对所有事情都这样做呢？”

Robby Stein: Instead of saying, "Oh, we don't need to solve for that," or, "That's not something that's in the most addressable next thing."

罗比·斯坦：不要说“哦，我们不需要解决这个问题”，或者“这不是最容易解决的下一件事”。

Robby Stein: It's like we actually saw people in the query stream putting the words AI at the end of their queries because they're trying to get the AI to do the thing.

Robby Stein：就像我们实际上看到人们在查询流中将“人工智能”一词放在查询末尾，因为他们试图让人工智能来做这件事。

We would look at that and be like, "This is ridiculous.

我们会看着这个，然后说：“这太荒谬了。

We need to build something here."

我们需要在这里建造一些东西。”

Robby Stein: And that was one of the big motivations, was actually identifying that user problem, being very disgruntled on behalf of the user.

罗比·斯坦：这是最大的动机之一，实际上是识别用户问题，代表用户感到非常不满。

We're just failing the user every day.

我们每天都在让用户失望。

We are not helping them actually get their thing better understood, and we're going to go build a whole thing because of it, because that's hard to do by the way, to build all of that.

我们并没有帮助他们更好地理解他们的东西，因此我们将去构建一个完整的东西，因为顺便说一句，构建所有这些是很难做到的。

But it just was so obvious that that's what we needed to do.

但这是如此明显，这就是我们需要做的。

Lenny Rachitsky: There's two buckets of people.

Lenny Rachitsky：有两类人。

Let's say hypothetically, one bucket is just make things better, make amazing experiences, you're going to do great.

让我们假设一下，一桶只是让事情变得更好，创造令人惊叹的体验，你会做得很棒。

There's another bucket that's like drive metrics, drive goals, hit our KPIs.

还有另一个桶，比如驱动指标、驱动目标、达到我们的 KPI。

I know what you're not saying is just work on things, just make things better, relentlessly, make things better.

我知道你所说的并不是只是努力工作，让事情变得更好，坚持不懈，让事情变得更好。

How do you just think about, I guess that overlap of okay, makes things better, but also here's what we really, here's the strategy, here's the vision.

你怎么想，我想重叠可以让事情变得更好，但这也是我们真正的，这是战略，这是愿景。

How do you think?

你觉得怎么样？

Robby Stein: Yeah, I don't think of them as an or.

Robby Stein：是的，我不认为它们是“或”。

I think they have to be intersected because basically the way I think about it is you actually start with a problem or the inverse of that, which is a vision, but they're connected.

我认为它们必须是交叉的，因为基本上我的思考方式是你实际上从一个问题或问题的反面开始，这是一个愿景，但它们是相互联系的。

Most great companies, most great products come out of a problem, but out of the problem becomes like, "Here's a better way." What if instead of this crappy thing or way of living or thing that we all tolerate and accept, some entrepreneur comes up and says, "What if we did this other thing?" So it comes out of this dissatisfaction and this sense of better that you need to make things better, but then you're going to build, and at the end of the day, you need your instrumentation to know if you're on the right track.

大多数伟大的公司、大多数伟大的产品都源于问题，但问题过后却变成了“这是一个更好的方法”。如果一些企业家出现并说：“如果我们做其他事情怎么办？”因此，出于这种不满和这种更好的感觉，您需要让事情变得更好，但随后您将进行构建，并且在一天结束时，您需要您的仪器来知道您是否走在正确的轨道上。

Robby Stein: And that's where you bring tools like, okay, you build your first version of the product, do people like it?

Robby Stein：这就是你带来工具的地方，比如，好吧，你构建了产品的第一个版本，人们喜欢它吗？

And then each product goes through its journey.

然后每个产品都会经历它的旅程。

The way understand that people like it is you scrutinize.

了解人们喜欢它的方法是你仔细观察。

Typically, you talk to people, but you also add some analytical tools there.

通常，您会与人们交谈，但也会在那里添加一些分析工具。

You might look at something like a J-curve.

您可能会看到类似 J 曲线的东西。

This is the retention, the percentage of people still using the product day seven, day 30, day 90, and does it flatten or do people just drip out of there?

这是保留率，即第 7 天、第 30 天、第 90 天仍在使用该产品的人所占的百分比，它会变平还是人们会从那里流失？

Over time, it's just not exciting people.

时间一长，人们就不再兴奋了。

And that would go to zero if on a long enough timeline, no one's going to use it.

如果在足够长的时间内没有人会使用它，那么这个数字就会为零。

You don't get past that, you toast right then.

你不会过去的，然后你就干杯。

Okay, some people are doing it, okay, great.

好吧，有些人正在这样做，好吧，太好了。

We need more people to do it, and it needs to be good enough that people talk about it and then it grows.

我们需要更多的人来做这件事，而且它需要足够好，让人们谈论它，然后它才能成长。

And so that's another gate.

这是另一扇门。

Robby Stein: And then there's another one which is, well, how big can this get actually, is it a small thing?

罗比·斯坦（Robby Stein）：还有另一个问题，那就是，这实际上能有多大，是一件小事吗？

Is it a medium thing?

是中等的东西吗？

And I think most companies, you have an aspiration of being big, but you can't start big.

我认为大多数公司都有做大的愿望，但你无法做大。

Everyone's got to go through that journey.

每个人都必须经历这个旅程。

No product has started big.

没有任何产品能够大起大落。

Even ones that get big really quickly, even a week quickly, they had something.

即使是那些发展得非常快的公司，甚至是一周之内的公司，他们也有一些东西。

And then even internally, they started small.

即使在内部，他们也是从小事做起。

They started small with a hundred to 100 people, and so you have to be metrics focused, I think in order to know if you're doing the right thing.

他们一开始规模很小，只有 100 到 100 人，所以我认为你必须关注指标，才能知道你是否在做正确的事情。

Robby Stein: And then the other thing is, on the other side of the spectrum, you're running a big thing, and there, you need metrics to be your guide.

罗比·斯坦（Robby Stein）：另一件事是，在光谱的另一边，你正在经营一件大事，在那里，你需要指标来指导。

If your product, let's say, let's say our core metrics down 5% this week, it's like, well, what's going on?

如果你的产品，比如说，我们的核心指标本周下降了 5%，那么，这是怎么回事？

And so you be really close to root cause analysis there and say, "Well, actually it turns out that it's an issue.

因此，您非常接近根本原因分析，并说：“嗯，实际上，事实证明这是一个问题。

Is it in a region?

是在一个地区吗？

Is it on a device?

它在设备上吗？

Is it in a demographic?

是在人口统计中吗？

Is it in a use case?

它在用例中吗？

Where does my problem lie?"

我的问题出在哪里？”

Robby Stein: And then when you get to it, you understand the problem and then this improvement thing comes back where it's like, "Okay, I'm going to fix that thing.

罗比·斯坦：当你接触到它时，你就会明白问题所在，然后这个改进的事情又回来了，就像是，“好吧，我要解决这个问题。

What's the treatment for that disease?" And then you're back to growth again, and so you need this and you always are looking at what's the system that I'm working on and what are my instruments?

这种病有什么治疗方法吗？”然后你又恢复增长，所以你需要这个，你总是在关注我正在开发的系统是什么以及我的工具是什么？

I'm a pilot to know if this thing is going and flying correctly, but then it doesn't tell you exactly what to do, you have to thank for yourself how to make it better.

我是一名飞行员，知道这东西是否正常飞行，但它并没有告诉你到底该怎么做，你必须感谢自己如何让它变得更好。

I can just show you a little bit of the way.

我只能向你展示一些方法。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love that you just gave a master class on just how to prioritize and pick what to work on.

Lenny Rachitsky：我很高兴您刚刚举办了一场关于如何确定优先级和选择要做什么的大师班。

I want to go on a quick tangent.

我想快速切入主题。

Speaking of products that have done really well and become really big, Stories, you build and launched Stories at Instagram.

说到那些做得非常好并且变得非常大的产品，Stories，您在 Instagram 上构建并推出了 Stories。

It's quite an infamous product launch back in the day, it was quite controversial because it basically took what Snapchat was doing really well and then, "Hey, let's bring it to Instagram," and it was not great for Snapchat.

这在当时是一次臭名昭著的产品发布，颇具争议，因为它基本上采用了 Snapchat 做得很好的东西，然后，“嘿，让我们把它带到 Instagram 上”，这对 Snapchat 来说并不是很好。

Now that it was so long ago and just, it's so far in the past, I'm so curious just to hear about that time reflecting on just that decision, what you guys talked about, how you decided to go ahead with that and anything just, I don't know, you think about looking back at that.

现在那已经是很久以前的事了，只是，已经过去了，我很好奇只是想听听当时对那个决定的反思，你们谈论了什么，你们如何决定继续下去，以及任何事情，我不知道，你想回顾一下那个决定。

Robby Stein: I think there's a couple of really important lessons from that launch.

Robby Stein：我认为这次发布给我们带来了一些非常重要的教训。

And I mean we went on afterwards to launch Reels, a bunch of updates to direct messaging, we had feed rank game.

我的意思是，我们后来继续推出了 Reels，这是对直接消息传递的一系列更新，我们有 feed 排名游戏。

There was just a huge era there when I was there between 2016 and 2021 or so where just so many new products got built.

2016 年到 2021 年左右，我在那里度过了一个巨大的时代，诞生了很多新产品。

I think an interesting lesson in all of those, and particularly in Stories was you have to really understand why someone uses your product and know when something is actually an existential question because there's just a better format or a different way of doing something that has worked and works and you need to figure out what that might mean for you, because not every great thing is going to be invented by you.

我认为所有这些中的一个有趣的教训，特别是在故事中，你必须真正理解为什么有人使用你的产品，并知道什么时候某件事实际上是一个存在问题，因为只有更好的格式或不同的方式来做一些有效的事情，你需要弄清楚这对你意味着什么，因为并不是所有伟大的事情都会由你发明。

But I think that a lot of these things are, they can become formats that you can make your own and you need to learn from the world and what's happening out there in order for your product to always give the best thing to its users.

但我认为，其中很多东西都可以成为你可以自己制作的格式，你需要向世界学习以及那里正在发生的事情，以便你的产品始终为用户提供最好的东西。

Robby Stein: And so for Stories, we looked at Instagram like, what's the point of Instagram?

Robby Stein：对于 Stories，我们就像 Instagram 一样，Instagram 的意义何在？

It is sharing your life and connecting with people ultimately.

它最终是分享你的生活并与人们建立联系。

And if there's a way to do that, that lowers the pressure because it doesn't have likes or it's just ephemeral format and it's optimized well for mobile because it's this full screen experience.

如果有办法做到这一点，那就可以减轻压力，因为它没有点赞，或者只是短暂的格式，而且它针对移动设备进行了很好的优化，因为它是全屏体验。

It's a really great format and kudos to Snapchat for inventing it.

这是一种非常棒的格式，值得称赞的是 Snapchat 发明了它。

We didn't think of that as a deterrent, that we had to go make Instagram photo clock.

我们并不认为这是一种威慑，我们必须去制作 Instagram 照片时钟。

And actually, there were early versions of this idea where you try to take the core Instagram feed and make it ephemeral.

事实上，这个想法有早期版本，你试图获取核心的 Instagram feed 并让它变得短暂。

And whenever you try to mix a core product that's very cemented in someone's mind and physically looks a specific way and you're trying to make, contort it to do something new, it's usually a bad recipe.

每当你试图混合一种在某人的头脑中非常牢固、物理上看起来很特定的核心产品，并且你试图制造、扭曲它以做一些新的事情时，这通常是一个糟糕的配方。

And so we knew we needed to do something new and then it was so clearly was critical to the core essence of what the product could do, could fit in naturally.

所以我们知道我们需要做一些新的事情，这对于产品的核心本质来说显然是至关重要的，能够自然地适应。

Robby Stein: But the question was how do we make it our own?

Robby Stein：但问题是我们如何将其变成我们自己的？

And how do we build on this?

我们如何在此基础上继续发展？

And so if you think, there were a bunch of things that we did that made it Instagram.

所以如果你想的话，我们做了很多事情才使得它成为了 Instagram 的一部分。

For example, it had different creative tools and it had things like neon drawing and these really sophisticated filters that people loved.

例如，它有不同的创意工具，有霓虹灯绘图和人们喜欢的这些非常复杂的滤镜。

We also looked at this talk about being dissatisfied.

我们也看了这个关于不满意的言论。

People took, a lot of times they want their main camera to take a picture of something and then they want to upload it to Instagram because they want to save it and they want it to be in a very high quality, high resolution photo, because it's a memory.

很多时候，人们希望用主相机拍摄一些东西，然后将其上传到 Instagram，因为他们想要保存它，并且希望它成为一张非常高质量、高分辨率的照片，因为它是一种记忆。

And Snapchat at the time didn't allow you to upload photos, it was like you have to use the Snap camera.

而且当时的 Snapchat 不允许你上传照片，就好像你必须使用 Snap 相机一样。

And so we made a bunch of decisions like that where why don't you just let people upload their photo?

所以我们做了很多这样的决定，为什么不让人们上传他们的照片呢？

This is back to the dissatisfied point, that's frustrating.

这又回到了不满意的地步，令人沮丧。

Robby Stein: Or there's another example where you couldn't pause if you were consuming a story.

罗比·斯坦：或者还有另一个例子，如果你正在阅读一个故事，你就无法暂停。

You couldn't pause it, it just would go through and be done because it was this ephemeral thing and you wanted to create safety.

你无法暂停它，它只会经历并完成，因为这是短暂的事情，而你想要创造安全。

Why can't you just pause?

为什么你不能暂停一下？

It goes by too fast.

时间过得太快了。

So we added this pause, it's such a small thing, but you put your finger down to pause the story now.

所以我们添加了这个暂停，这是一件很小的事情，但你现在放下手指来暂停故事。

And so there were a whole set of those things that were shipped that made Stories feel Instagram.

因此，我们发布了一整套让 Stories 感觉像 Instagram 的东西。

It wasn't like you just had some other thing.

这并不像你只是有其他事情。

And then it turns out that worked incredibly well, and so much to the fact that someone on the team mentioned that they always felt like at the time, they didn't realize it, but it was almost like it was missing the story size holes at the top of the page and it completed the product in some weird way for them.

事实证明，效果非常好，团队中有人提到，他们当时总是感觉，他们没有意识到这一点，但这几乎就像是缺少页面顶部的故事大小的漏洞，并且以某种奇怪的方式为他们完成了产品。

And so that was, I think an important lesson.

我认为这是一个重要的教训。

Lenny Rachitsky: Instagram definitely got a lot of hate for that moment from a lot of founders.

Lenny Rachitsky：那一刻 Instagram 确实遭到了很多创始人的痛恨。

It was just like, "Hey, you guys just stole this idea and that sucks."

就像，“嘿，你们只是偷了这个想法，这太糟糕了。”

Lenny Rachitsky: How did you guys just deal with that internally?

Lenny Rachitsky：你们内部是如何处理这个问题的？

It was just this is, "We got to do this.

只是这样，“我们必须这样做。

We got to focus on our shareholders and grow this thing," and that's how it goes sometimes?

我们必须专注于我们的股东并发展这件事，”有时事情就是这样？

Robby Stein: I mean, I think it's more that we're focused on our users and the people who are loving Instagram and it's denying them the opportunity to have an easy way to just share a photo and have the thing go away.

Robby Stein：我的意思是，我认为我们更多地关注我们的用户和热爱 Instagram 的人，这剥夺了他们有机会以简单的方式分享照片并让事情消失。

I mean, that's ultimately what we were trying to add.

我的意思是，这就是我们最终想要添加的内容。

At the end of the day, that is a format that people adopt.

归根结底，这是人们采用的一种格式。

In the same way that you think about feeds, I think we talked about this at the time too when we shipped it.

就像您考虑 Feed 一样，我想我们在发布时也讨论过这一点。

Facebook probably created the modern feed, but there's a feed for every single product.

Facebook 可能创建了现代 feed，但每个产品都有一个 feed。

There's a LinkedIn feed and there's a feed for DoorDash.

有 LinkedIn 提要和 DoorDash 提要。

Robby Stein: These things become core primitives quickly and formats, and then at the end of the day, you're just robbing your user base of the opportunity to have a better product if you're not making the best possible product for your use cases.

Robby Stein：这些东西很快就会成为核心原语和格式，然后在一天结束时，如果您没有为您的用例提供最好的产品，那么您只是剥夺了用户群拥有更好产品的机会。

And for Instagram, it's used differently.

而对于 Instagram，它的使用方式有所不同。

People use Instagram differently than they use other products.

人们使用 Instagram 的方式与使用其他产品的方式不同。

And it turns out that there were these experiences in WhatsApp and in Messenger and in many other social products over time, and they all were used differently actually, which is fascinating.

事实证明，随着时间的推移，WhatsApp、Messenger 以及许多其他社交产品中都有这些体验，而且它们实际上都有不同的使用方式，这很有趣。

Lenny Rachitsky: Something else I want to talk about is you came into two products that were already doing really well, Instagram and Google.

Lenny Rachitsky：我想谈的另一件事是，你们推出了两款已经表现出色的产品：Instagram 和 Google。

And on the Instagram side, a transformative growth and improvement.

Instagram 方面也出现了变革性的增长和改进。

Google is happening, we're in the middle of the improvement and growth you're driving.

Google 正在发生，我们正处于您推动的改进和增长之中。

Not a lot of people get to do this where they go into an existing product, make it grow significantly.

没有多少人能够在现有产品中做到这一点，使其显着增长。

A lot of people want to do this.

很多人都想这样做。

They have a product that's been around for a long time.

他们有一种已经存在很长时间的产品。

Hey, how do we make this grow and be more successful?

嘿，我们如何让它成长并更加成功？

Is there anything specifically that you've learned about just coming into an existing product, figuring out where the big opportunities are and then just hockey-sticking growth?

在进入现有产品、找出巨大机遇、然后实现曲棍球棒式增长方面，您是否学到了什么特别的知识？

Because this is what everyone wants to do.

因为这是每个人都想做的事情。

Robby Stein: There's a couple lessons here.

Robby Stein：这里有一些教训。

And I think, by the way, the first lesson is to be humble always because it's extremely incredible to be able to work on products that have such impact on people.

顺便说一句，我认为第一课是始终保持谦虚，因为能够开发对人们产生如此影响的产品是非常令人难以置信的。

I view product like golf, you're always one stroke away from shanking.

我认为产品就像高尔夫一样，你总是离被击中只有一杆之遥。

And as soon as you think you're good, you're not, you don't know anything.

一旦你认为自己很好，其实你就不是，你什么都不知道。

The world changes quickly.

世界变化很快。

You have to always be a servant to your user base and the people that are out there and learn from them.

你必须始终成为你的用户群和其他人的仆人，并向他们学习。

The first thing I always do and think about is you get in touch in terms of why are people using this product, and where are the areas of growth?

我总是做和想到的第一件事是你要了解人们为什么使用这个产品，以及增长的领域在哪里？

And so usually even in a big product or a mature in a complex system, there's a part of it that's growing.

因此，通常即使在一个大型产品或一个成熟的复杂系统中，它的一部分也在不断增长。

There's a part of it that's mature, there could be a part of it that's declining or isn't growing as much.

它的一部分已经成熟，也可能有一部分正在衰退或增长缓慢。

Robby Stein: Certainly in Instagram, there's been a big shift over the years of sharing into public very large broadcast posts and feed into these more lightweight formats like Stories and DM actually private sharing as well.

Robby Stein：当然，在 Instagram 中，多年来发生了巨大的转变，分享到公共大型广播帖子中，并提供给这些更轻量级的格式，例如故事和 DM，实际上也包括私人分享。

And so you have to observe that because every month, every year, the world changes, people's needs change.

所以你必须观察到，因为每个月、每年，世界都在变化，人们的需求也在变化。

First thing you do is you get a sense of what do people want out of this product?

您要做的第一件事是了解人们想要从这个产品中得到什么？

What's its true essence?

它的真正本质是什么？

I think a lot about this job to be done framework, which is one of the things that I'm a big fan of and Clayton Christensen's book on Competing Against Luck is one of my favorite books on this topic where you have to really be a student of causation.

我对这个要完成的工作框架思考了很多，这是我非常喜欢的事情之一，克莱顿·克里斯滕森（Clayton Christensen）关于与运气竞争的书是我最喜欢的关于这个主题的书之一，在这本书中你必须真正成为因果关系的学生。

Why is someone using this product?

为什么有人使用这个产品？

What are they doing with it and what are they trying to get done with it?

他们正在用它做什么以及他们想用它完成什么？

Robby Stein: And that usually leads you to do bigger next stage ideas, and it removes this belief that you need to solve the problem with the current tools.

Robby Stein：这通常会导致你在下一阶段提出更大的想法，并且消除了你需要使用当前工具解决问题的信念。

In the Instagram version, it was like you have to make a square photo do more for people.

在 Instagram 版本中，就好像你必须让一张方形照片为人们做更多的事情。

That would be how you increment the product.

这就是你增加产品的方式。

Or in Google's example, there's something very specific with the core search experience that needs to change, it's a subtle tweak.

或者在谷歌的例子中，核心搜索体验中有一些非常具体的东西需要改变，这是一个微妙的调整。

You have to think, well, what's the big thing?

你必须思考，什么是最重要的事情？

Someone's trying to ask a really hard question out of Google?

有人试图向 Google 提出一个非常棘手的问题？

What's the best way to do that for them?

对他们来说最好的方法是什么？

And so it makes you think more first principled and that's the first basis of this.

所以它让你思考更多的第一原则，这是第一个基础。

Robby Stein: And then once from first principles, you're like, "Oh, this newer thing." And it could be a shift, it could be a new form.

罗比·斯坦：一旦从基本原则开始，你就会说，“哦，这个新东西。”这可能是一种转变，也可能是一种新的形式。

In many ways, the AI version of Google and Stories and Reels, they're all similar in that they're new formats in the world that people are expecting and wanting more of.

在很多方面，人工智能版的谷歌、Stories 和 Reels 都很相似，因为它们都是人们期待并想要更多的新格式。

Robby Stein: And by adding them, it becomes complementary, not replacement.

罗比·斯坦：通过添加它们，它成为补充，而不是替代。

And in both cases, Stories didn't replace Instagram, it expanded in the same way we're seeing for AI.

在这两种情况下，Stories 并没有取代 Instagram，它的扩展方式与我们在人工智能中看到的方式相同。

And so what's interesting is then you think, well, how do I bring that into my world?

有趣的是，你会想，我该如何将其带入我的世界？

You have this big mature product.

你有这个成熟的大产品。

The best way I've seen is by making it complimentary, having it be a core part of the experience, but clearly defined as a distinctive thing that has its own attributes associated with it because people think spatially.

我见过的最好的方法是让它成为免费的，让它成为体验的核心部分，但明确定义为一个独特的东西，有自己的属性与之相关，因为人们在空间上思考。

So if you have a feed and you have holes with pictures, they expect those holes to do things.

因此，如果你有一个提要，并且有图片漏洞，他们希望这些漏洞能够发挥作用。

And so if you make one of those holes with a little clock and that one goes away the next day or you can't like it or it operates differently than the other parts of your feed, it's going to be super confusing for people.

因此，如果你用一个小时钟打了一个洞，而那个洞第二天就消失了，或者你不喜欢它，或者它的运作方式与你的饲料的其他部分不同，这会让人们感到非常困惑。

It sucks.

太糟糕了。

Robby Stein: And so you have to add product carefully, but it needs to feel coherent but different.

Robby Stein：所以你必须小心地添加产品，但它需要感觉连贯但又不同。

Stories, it has similar aesthetic.

故事，它有相似的审美。

It obviously uses your camera roll in the same way it works that you can share it in DM, it works in the system, but it has a different primitive in the same way Google AI, it's a full page experience that you can pop out now.

显然，它使用你的相机胶卷的方式与你可以在 DM 中共享它的方式相同，它在系统中工作，但它具有与 Google AI 相同的不同原语，它是你现在可以弹出的全页面体验。

You can have follow up conversation with it.

您可以与其进行后续对话。

People have a set of expectations you need to snap to for those use cases.

人们对这些用例有一系列期望，您需要适应这些期望。

And then you are constantly learning how to best make these new products work within your world.

然后，您将不断学习如何最好地让这些新产品在您的世界中发挥作用。

Robby Stein: You never just want to snap in something that's working, you have to make it work for your users, your expectations, and what people are trying to do with your product.

Robby Stein：你永远不会只想抓住一些有效的东西，你必须让它适合你的用户、你的期望以及人们试图用你的产品做什么。

It's actually one of the things I see people fail on the most is they assume something working for one system will work in your world, but someone else's system is on totally the types of users they have with the consumer expectation of that product, that's totally different set of expectations.

实际上，我看到人们最失败的事情之一是，他们认为适用于一个系统的东西也适用于你的世界，但其他人的系统完全取决于他们拥有的用户类型和消费者对该产品的期望，这是完全不同的期望。

You have to respect that and say, "What can we learn from that," and bring it here.

你必须尊重这一点，并说：“我们可以从中学到什么”，然后把它带到这里。

I guess if you were to talk about the method that I've seen now or twice, I guess that's how these products have developed.

我想如果你要谈论我现在或两次看到的方法，我想这就是这些产品的开发方式。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love this topic.

Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢这个话题。

It makes me think about just this balance.

这让我思考这种平衡。

People always try to find between optimizing something they've already got versus trying to take a big bet on something.

人们总是试图在优化他们已经拥有的东西和尝试在某些东西上下大赌注之间做出选择。

You've had so many examples where you've taken a big bet on something totally new and it's worked out incredibly well.

你已经有很多这样的例子，你在全新的事物上下了很大的赌注，结果却非常好。

Do you have just a heuristic in how you structure teams and prioritize across, okay, we have amazing Google experience today, what percentage of resources go into improving that versus trying something totally new?

你是否对如何构建团队和优先考虑有一个启发式的方法，好吧，我们今天拥有令人惊叹的谷歌体验，与尝试全新的东西相比，用于改进的资源百分比是多少？

Robby Stein: That's one where I actually do feel like the more analytical, systematic thinking helps a lot because you're trying to produce value in the world, you want to quantify it some way.

罗比·斯坦：我确实觉得更具分析性、系统性的思维有很大帮助，因为你试图在世界上创造价值，你想以某种方式量化它。

And so if you're seeing this growth curve and you're trying to understand, wow, people are using it more and more to liken this product.

因此，如果您看到这条增长曲线并试图理解，哇，人们越来越多地使用它来比喻该产品。

And when products are young, they grow, and then eventually things mature.

当产品还很年轻时，它们就会成长，然后最终成熟。

You can break out product suites and different features of products all along the same way.

您可以按照相同的方式分解产品套件和产品的不同功能。

Certain features that are growing fast, other features that are not.

某些功能正在快速增长，而其他功能则不然。

You get to these points of just diminishing marginal return in every system where it feels like you could put 50 people on this project, it's just not going to dramatically move the needle.

在每个系统中，你都会遇到边际回报递减的情况，感觉你可以在这个项目上投入 50 个人，但它不会显着地改变现状。

Part of it is this bottoms up thing with your own team being really thoughtful about what is the expected value of that investment, and knowing when it's starting to approach zero or diminishing marginal return.

其中一部分是这种自下而上的事情，你自己的团队真正考虑到该投资的预期价值是多少，并知道它何时开始接近零或边际回报递减。

Robby Stein: And then when that happens, these are these moments that usually coincide with something fundamental changing.

罗比·斯坦：当这种情况发生时，这些时刻通常与一些根本性的变化同时发生。

Either people's expectations, externally, market saturation, there's something happening where you need to adjust.

要么是人们的期望，要么是外部的市场饱和，有些事情发生了，你需要调整。

You then find your next growth driver or set of drivers.

然后，您可以找到下一个或一组增长动力。

That's where you need to go more first principled and try these new things more.

这就是你需要更加坚持原则并更多地尝试这些新事物的地方。

Then when you land a new thing that creates this new little growth engine and then you put people on it and you optimize it because each change is like 10% win, 20% win, 4% win.

然后，当你推出一个新事物，创造这个新的小增长引擎，然后你把人放在上面并优化它，因为每次改变都像是 10% 的胜利、20% 的胜利、4% 的胜利。

Robby Stein: It's clearly still has so much value in headroom and to make it better for people, and you can see that in the data.

Robby Stein：显然，它在空间上仍然具有很大的价值，并且可以让人们变得更好，你可以在数据中看到这一点。

And so that becoming, I talked about this instrumentation, it becomes your guide for knowing if you're making good calls.

因此，我谈到了这个仪器，它成为您了解自己是否做出正确决策的指南。

Otherwise, if you don't know where you're headed and you don't have a goal of what you're trying to do more quantitatively, it's really hard to know if the thing you're doing is mattering to anyone.

否则，如果你不知道自己要去哪里，并且没有更量化地尝试做的事情的目标，那么真的很难知道你正在做的事情是否对任何人都很重要。

I think I made the product better, but is anyone using it?

我认为我使产品变得更好，但是有人使用它吗？

Does anyone care?

有人关心吗？

Or are we just congratulating ourselves?

或者我们只是祝贺自己？

Ultimately you want to have impact on people and that's what matters.

最终你希望对人们产生影响，这才是最重要的。

Lenny Rachitsky: So it says essentially tracking S-curves on every product and understanding if you're in the plateau and if it's time to invest heavily somewhere else.

Lenny Rachitsky：所以它本质上是跟踪每种产品的 S 曲线，了解您是否处于平稳期以及是否是时候在其他地方进行大量投资。

Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by Orkes, the company behind open source Conductor, the orchestration platform powering modern enterprise apps and agentic workflows.

Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 Orkes 为您带来，Orkes 是开源 Conductor 背后的公司，是为现代企业应用程序和代理工作流程提供支持的编排平台。

Legacy automation tools can't keep pace.

传统的自动化工具无法跟上步伐。

Siloed low-code platforms, outdated process management, and disconnected API tooling falls short in today's event-driven AI powered agentic landscape.

孤立的低代码平台、过时的流程管理和断开连接的 API 工具在当今事件驱动的 AI 驱动的代理环境中显得不足。

Orkes changes this.

奥克斯改变了这一点。

With Orkes Conductor, you gain an agentic orchestration layer that seamlessly connects humans, AI agents, APIs, microservices, and data pipelines in real time at enterprise scale, visual and code first development built in compliance, observability, and rock solid reliability, ensure workflows evolve dynamically with your needs.

借助 Orkes Conductor，您可以获得一个代理编排层，该层可以在企业规模上实时无缝连接人类、AI 代理、API、微服务和数据管道，以合规性、可观察性和坚如磐石的可靠性构建可视化和代码优先开发，确保工作流程根据您的需求动态发展。

It's not just about automating tasks, it's orchestrating autonomous agents and complex workflows to deliver smarter outcomes faster.

它不仅仅是自动化任务，它还协调自主代理和复杂的工作流程，以更快地交付更智能的结果。

Whether modernizing legacy systems or scaling next gen, AI driven apps, Orkes accelerates your journey from idea to production.

无论是对遗留系统进行现代化改造还是扩展下一代人工智能驱动的应用程序，Orkes 都能加速您从创意到生产的旅程。

Learn more and start building at orkes.io/lenny.

了解更多信息并开始构建，请访问 orkes.io/lenny。

That's O-R-K-E-S dot I-O slash Lenny.

这是 O-R-K-E-S 点 I-O 斜线 Lenny。

Lenny Rachitsky: Maybe it would be helpful to talk about the journey of AI Mode, just how it emerged and the steps that you took to now it's just such a big part of the Google search experience.

Lenny Rachitsky：也许谈谈 AI 模式的历程会有所帮助，包括它是如何出现的，以及您现在采取的步骤，它只是 Google 搜索体验的重要组成部分。

When did this start?

这是从什么时候开始的？

How did you decide this is worth betting on?

您如何决定这值得下注？

And then what are the steps to get it further and further rolled out?

那么要采取哪些步骤来进一步推广呢？

Robby Stein: I mean, I think it probably started earlier on with AI Overviews actually, which was the first way we brought generative AI to search.

Robby Stein：我的意思是，我认为实际上它可能是从人工智能概述开始的，这是我们将生成式人工智能引入搜索的第一种方式。

And in that world, we noticed that people were asking these questions and many people were actually trying to put natural language questions into search.

在那个世界中，我们注意到人们在问这些问题，而且许多人实际上正在尝试将自然语言问题放入搜索中。

And so how can you provide helpful context links to go deeper and make an AI that made sense for Google?

那么，如何提供有用的上下文链接来更深入地构建对 Google 有意义的人工智能呢？

That was our first version of these models that could do this for people.

这是我们这些模型的第一个版本，可以为人们做到这一点。

And then by building into that and seeing this observation around people wanting more of it, direct access to it, and then being able to ask follow-up questions.

然后通过建立这一点，看到人们想要更多的观察结果，直接访问它，然后能够提出后续问题。

You need a new modality.

你需要一种新的方式。

It's going to be really hard to build all of that within the construct of the core search experience.

在核心搜索体验的构建中构建所有这些将非常困难。

And so that led us to have form a small team of folks, a few people that were technical leaders, a couple designers very small to just prove out what if there was on, almost blank screen, delete, make a little fresh doc with a blinker.

因此，这导致我们组建了一个小团队，其中一些人是技术领导者，几个设计师非常小，只是为了证明如果出现几乎空白的屏幕，删除，用闪光灯制作一个小新鲜的文档会怎么样。

Robby Stein: What if there's a new page and you can ask the question, you can ask whatever you want of it.

Robby Stein：如果有一个新页面，你可以提出问题，你可以问任何你想问的问题。

You can tap right into the AI that was originally powering this top of the experience in search.

您可以直接利用最初为搜索体验提供动力的人工智能。

But we invested in making it much more powerful in the ways I described before was in it could search for you.

但我们投资让它变得更加强大，就像我之前描述的那样，它可以搜索你。

It had reasoning as a part of its model capability, it had multi turn context, so if you had a conversation with it could keep track of that context so it had some unique pieces to it.

它具有推理作为其模型功能的一部分，它具有多回合上下文，因此如果您与它进行对话，可以跟踪该上下文，因此它有一些独特的部分。

And what would happen if we tried that quickly.

如果我们尽快尝试的话会发生什么。

And we basically got, I mean, this was probably five to 10 people worth of people originally.

我的意思是，我们基本上得到了最初可能有 5 到 10 人的人数。

Lenny Rachitsky: And how long ago was this team formed?

Lenny Rachitsky：这个团队是多久前组建的？

Robby Stein: This was probably over the last year, last summer basically, into the fall.

罗比·斯坦：这可能是去年的事情，基本上是去年夏天，一直到秋天。

Robby Stein: Yeah, maybe about a year ago.

罗比·斯坦：是的，大约一年前。

It was where maybe it started.

也许这就是一切开始的地方。

We were really plugging away on it, and then we saw this little version of it emerge that wasn't very good, but it had this moments of brilliance.

我们真的很努力地开发它，然后我们看到它的这个小版本出现了，虽然不是很好，但它有一些辉煌的时刻。

It's actually, again, it's kind of like golf where you hit the perfect shot and you're like, "Oh my God." You get that feeling where it's just everything worked.

实际上，这有点像高尔夫，你击出完美的一球，然后你就会说，“天哪。”你会有一种一切顺利的感觉。

And I asked it a question about, I forget, I was doing something with my daughter and I was planning an experience and it found all this incredibly useful information about park information.

我问了它一个问题，我忘了，我正在和我的女儿一起做某事，我正在计划一次体验，它发现了所有这些关于公园信息的非常有用的信息。

It had links to go to the site and confirm a bunch of things.

它有链接到该网站并确认一堆事情。

It had Google Maps information that for my daughter, you could walk up, it was walkable.

它有谷歌地图信息，对于我女儿来说，你可以步行上去，它是步行的。

There was early examples like this where it just, it blew me away of what it could find and how helpful it was.

早期有类似这样的例子，它能找到什么以及它有多么有用，让我大吃一惊。

Robby Stein: It gave us conviction that we should go and go further.

Robby Stein：它让我们坚信我们应该走得更远。

And obviously there's lots of people involved in this type of a decision, tons of support from leaders across the organization.

显然，有很多人参与了此类决策，并得到了整个组织领导者的大量支持。

But it just says a little working team that initially, you got to build something and then you have to feel it yourself and it is very entrepreneurial in that way.

但它只是告诉一个小工作团队，最初，你必须构建一些东西，然后你必须自己感受它，这样就非常具有创业精神。

And then when you see it tangibly, you're like, "What's a version of that?

然后当你亲眼看到它时，你会想，“它的版本是什么？

That's good and that could work?" And that gave you hope.

这很好，可行吗？”这给了你希望。

And so then we basically built it out and built the first version that launched in Labs basically.

然后我们基本上构建了它并构建了基本上在实验室中启动的第一个版本。

Lenny Rachitsky: So the first big milestone was this is working.

Lenny Rachitsky：第一个重大里程碑是它正在发挥作用。

It was just a qualitative experience of, "Oh wow, this has really, there's magic here."

这只是一种定性的体验，“哇哦，这真的有魔力。”

Robby Stein: Yes, it's working.

罗比·斯坦：是的，它正在发挥作用。

And then we did bring it before labs actually to trusted tester group.

然后我们确实将其带到了实验室之前，真正交给了值得信赖的测试人员小组。

There were maybe 500 people externally that we added onto it, and we had pings with them.

我们添加了大约 500 名外部人员，并与他们进行了 ping 操作。

Some of them were, we actually had friends and family.

其中一些是，我们实际上有朋友和家人。

We tried to treat it a little more like a startup where, because we feel like you got to have people test it to tell you the truth, and tell you when it sucks, because it probably does.

我们试图把它更像是一家初创公司，因为我们觉得你必须让人们对其进行测试才能告诉你真相，并在它糟糕的时候告诉你，因为它很可能确实如此。

Robby Stein: And then they'd message you.

Robby Stein：然后他们会给你发消息。

So I had a friend who was loving it, but also hating it for lots of good reasons and would just be messaging me all the time, screenshots, "This broke, this broke, this makes no sense."

所以我有一个朋友，他很喜欢它，但也有很多充分的理由讨厌它，并且总是给我发消息，截图，“这个坏了，这个坏了，这毫无意义。”

Robby Stein: We had that for a while, and then we got to a point where it was feeling good, the trusted testers were liking it, reporting good stuff, and then we it to this Labs moment where anyone could turn it on and then we used that to make it better with real query data.

Robby Stein：我们已经这样做了一段时间，然后我们感觉很好，值得信赖的测试人员喜欢它，报告了好东西，然后我们进入了实验室时刻，任何人都可以打开它，然后我们使用它来通过真实的查询数据使其变得更好。

We could actually see what people were using it for at more scale and so that could tune it to make it better.

我们实际上可以更大规模地了解人们使用它的用途，从而可以对其进行调整以使其变得更好。

And then we launched it out to everyone, or at least in the US, and then we've now been on this journey to expand it to all countries and languages and have more people be able to access it.

然后我们向所有人推出它，或者至少在美国，然后我们现在已经踏上将其扩展到所有国家和语言的旅程，并让更多的人能够访问它。

Lenny Rachitsky: It's incredible that Google went roughly in a year from idea to a significant change to the search experience that's AI powered.

Lenny Rachitsky：令人难以置信的是，谷歌在大约一年的时间里从想法变成了对人工智能驱动的搜索体验的重大改变。

I think this is not what people imagine Google is like, and it feels like things are different and things have changed in how you guys operate.

我认为这并不是人们想象中的谷歌，感觉事情有所不同，你们的运作方式也发生了变化。

What has allowed this to happen so quickly?

是什么让这一切发生得如此之快？

What's changed?

发生了什么变化？

Is it just top-down leadership, we need to get shit done, or is there something more?

仅仅是自上而下的领导，我们需要把事情做好，还是还有更多的事情？

Robby Stein: No, I mean I think it's interesting how organizations change.

罗比·斯坦：不，我的意思是我认为组织的变化很有趣。

I think when you feel like there is a moment in time that is clearly critical to deliver for people, people are trying to get information from Google.

我认为，当你觉得某个时刻对于为人们提供服务显然至关重要时，人们就会试图从谷歌获取信息。

We are not able to answer certain things or help people in certain ways and there's this technology that can do it, that creates urgency, and obviously there's lots of people building lots of things and the market's crazy and there's lots of things shipping all the time.

我们无法回答某些问题或以某些方式帮助人们，但有一种技术可以做到这一点，这会产生紧迫感，显然有很多人在建造很多东西，市场很疯狂，而且一直有很多东西在运输。

Robby Stein: There's a really exciting and healthy moment for us to build and build quickly and I think it's just exciting to be able to capture that opportunity because I think people believe, and I certainly believe that the next year or so of product is going to establish how people use the next wave of products for many years.

Robby Stein：对于我们来说，快速构建和构建是一个非常令人兴奋和健康的时刻，我认为能够抓住这个机会真是令人兴奋，因为我认为人们相信，而且我当然相信明年左右的产品将确定人们如何使用下一波产品很多年。

And so at least I can only speak for myself, I feel this obligation to our users to give them the best version of Google that's powered by AI and that gives them the full knowledge of everything Google knows about the world and information to people and accessible with AI.

因此，至少我只能代表我自己，我觉得我们的用户有义务为他们提供由人工智能驱动的最佳版本的谷歌，让他们充分了解谷歌所知道的关于世界的一切以及人们可以通过人工智能访问的信息。

That's driving a lot of the excitement.

这让人非常兴奋。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, it's such a good point that people are building their new habits.

Lenny Rachitsky：是的，人们正在养成新的习惯，这是一个很好的观点。

It's wild how many people just now rely on ChatGPT and how quickly that happened.

现在有多少人依赖 ChatGPT，而且这种情况发生得有多快，真是太疯狂了。

And I could see Google being worried that, oh, shit, everyone's changing their habit from searching Google to searching ChatGPT.

我可以看到谷歌担心，哦，操，每个人都在改变他们的习惯，从搜索谷歌转向搜索 ChatGPT。

And the fact that now Gemini is number one.

事实上，现在双子座是第一。

I was actually looking at the list of top, so in the top 15 apps, Google is I think five of them, a third.

我实际上查看了排名前 15 的应用程序列表，我认为 Google 是其中的五个，第三个。

It's out of control, killing it.

失控了，杀了它。

When people look at AI Mode versus ChatGPT or Claude or let's even say Perplexity, what's the way you think about the positioning of AI Mode versus these other tools?

当人们比较 AI 模式与 ChatGPT 或 Claude 甚至 Perplexity 时，您如何看待 AI 模式与其他工具的定位？

Is it trying to be a direct competitor or is it just like, "No, it's actually pretty different and here's what it's for?"

它是想成为直接竞争对手，还是只是说，“不，它实际上非常不同，这就是它的用途？”

Robby Stein: Yeah, I mean AI Mode's a way to ask search anything you want.

Robby Stein：是的，我的意思是人工智能模式是一种要求搜索任何你想要的东西的方式。

It's designed and specially created for information.

它是为信息而设计和专门创建的。

And so really, it should give incredible helpful responses for the things that people come to Google for.

事实上，它应该为人们访问 Google 的目的提供令人难以置信的有用响应。

Think about you're planning a trip, you're trying to buy something, you're working through a question for your research project.

想象一下您正在计划一次旅行，您正在尝试购买一些东西，您正在为您的研究项目解决一个问题。

It needs information and that's really, it's less focused on things like creativity, although there's things that can do that are nice there.

它需要信息，实际上，它不太关注创造力之类的事情，尽管那里有一些可以做的事情。

It can help you.

它可以帮助你。

Just like any kind of core AI product, you can ask it to rewrite something for you, it'll do that.

就像任何类型的核心人工智能产品一样，你可以要求它为你重写一些东西，它会这样做。

But we are less focused on creativity, productivity, upload a spreadsheet and output graphs for me, we're not focused on that.

但我们不太关注创造力、生产力，为我上传电子表格和输出图表，我们不关注这一点。

Robby Stein: We're really focused on what people use Google for, and making an AI for that so that you can come to Google, ask whatever you want and get effortless information about that and context and links to then also verify, dig in and go to the authoritative sources ultimately that people want, and we hear from people.

罗比·斯坦：我们真正关注的是人们使用谷歌的目的，并为此开发了人工智能，这样你就可以来到谷歌，询问你想要的任何内容，并轻松获得有关该内容的信息、上下文和链接，然后还可以验证、挖掘并访问人们最终想要的权威来源，我们收到人们的来信。

So those ends up becoming the distinct qualities of this product versus more of a chatbot.

因此，这些最终成为该产品相对于聊天机器人的独特品质。

Maybe you would talk to it like you maybe even have a bit of a, "Hey, how are you doing today," with that chatbot that we have some of that, we see that a little bit, but people are usually coming for information.

也许你会和它说话，就像你甚至可能会说“嘿，你今天过得怎么样”，我们有一些这样的聊天机器人，我们看到了一点，但人们通常是来获取信息的。

They're trying to learn something and we focused our product on that.

他们试图学习一些东西，我们的产品就专注于此。

Lenny Rachitsky: Got it.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：明白了。

Okay, AI Mode is not your therapist.

好吧，AI 模式不是你的治疗师。

Maybe zooming out again a little bit and reflecting on all the amazing products you've worked on, all the places you've worked, if you had to pick two or three just core product principles or philosophies that have helped you build such amazing and successful products, what would those be?

也许再稍微缩小一点，反思一下你曾经开发过的所有令人惊叹的产品，你曾经工作过的所有地方，如果你必须选择两三个帮助你构建如此令人惊叹和成功的产品的核心产品原则或理念，那些会是什么？

What comes to mind?

我想到了什么？

Robby Stein: I mean, there's typically three things I think about.

罗比·斯坦：我的意思是，我通常会考虑三件事。

If I were to write a book about how to build great products, there'd be three chapters.

如果我要写一本关于如何构建出色产品的书，那么就会分为三章。

I mean there'd probably more than that, but three chapters.

我的意思是可能不止这些，但只有三章。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love that.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢这个。

I love how short that would be.

我喜欢那会有多短。

That's the ideal book.

那是一本理想的书。

Robby Stein: I've thought about these three areas now for a while and it's like they're always consistently the three things.

罗比·斯坦（Robby Stein）：我现在已经思考这三个领域一段时间了，而且它们似乎始终是这三件事。

The first is deeply understand people, and I think we talked about this a little bit with the jobs to be done point and Clayton Christensen's book, which I loved around Competing Against Luck.

第一个是深入了解人，我想我们在“待完成的工作”点和克莱顿·克里斯滕森的书上对此进行了一些讨论，我喜欢这本书中的《与运气竞争》。

It really helps you be a student of why someone ends up, in his words, hiring a product.

用他的话来说，这确实可以帮助你了解为什么有人最终会雇用一个产品。

Don't think of users as using your product.

不要认为用户正在使用你的产品。

Think of users as hiring you to do something for them.

将用户视为雇用您为他们做某事。

Robby Stein: There's this famous quote, I think it's Theodore Levitt had, "People don't want a quarter inch drill, they want a quarter inch hole." So what is someone trying to do?

罗比·斯坦：有一句著名的名言，我认为是西奥多·莱维特说过的，“人们不需要四分之一英寸的钻头，他们想要四分之一英寸的孔。”那么有人想做什么呢？

You have to understand that deeply and then you can build an amazing product.

你必须深入理解这一点，然后你才能构建出令人惊叹的产品。

And also by the way, when you go back, why someone not using your product?

顺便说一句，当你回去时，为什么有人不使用你的产品？

Robby Stein: And so it focuses on these techniques to extract causation.

Robby Stein：所以它重点关注这些提取因果关系的技术。

So he actually talks a lot about this interview.

所以这次采访他其实说了很多。

He calls it an interrogation where you talk to a user like, "Hey, why do you use my product?

他称其为审讯，即你与用户交谈，“嘿，你为什么使用我的产品？

Where were you?

你在哪里？

Were you in bed?

你在床上吗？

Were you at work?

你当时在工作吗？

What were you doing?"

你在做什么？”

"Okay, well why?": And then you have this aha moment like that when they first decide to use your product, he calls it the big hire.

“好吧，那为什么？”：当他们第一次决定使用你的产品时，你就会有这样的顿悟时刻，他称之为大雇佣。

That is information that you obtain ends up becoming the most critical because that is what caused someone to use your product.

您获得的信息最终将成为最关键的信息，因为这是导致某人使用您的产品的原因。

And if you can study that and understand it, you'll be much more on your way than just building things that sound cool.

如果你能研究并理解它，你将不仅仅只是构建听起来很酷的东西。

And so that's the first chapter is deeply understand people.

那么这就是第一章深入了解人们。

"Okay, well why?": Second is really around analytical rigor and understanding your problems.

“好吧，为什么？”：第二是真正围绕分析的严谨性和理解你的问题。

You have to understand your problems.

你必须了解你的问题。

And this got is a little bit of what we were talking about about root cause analysis and understanding, okay, the metrics are dropping.

这就是我们所讨论的根本原因分析和理解的一些内容，好吧，指标正在下降。

Why?

为什么？

If someone's not using your product, why?

如果有人不使用您的产品，为什么？

And really being able to dissect that to get to true root causes.

并且真正能够剖析它以找到真正的根本原因。

It's like, well, they went all the way to the end and then bailed, and then you understand what turns out that it was most, we actually learned about this and there's a story in Close Friends at Instagram where it just totally failed at first in a bunch just when we shipped it.

就好像，好吧，他们一路走到最后，然后放弃了，然后你就明白了结果是什么，我们实际上了解到了这一点，Instagram 的 Close Friends 中有一个故事，当我们发货时，它一开始完全失败了。

And it turned out that we looked at the data and people were only adding one close friend to their list because it was mistranslated as best friend in many markets.

事实证明，我们查看了数据，人们只在他们的列表中添加了一位亲密的朋友，因为它在许多市场上被错误地翻译为最好的朋友。

So people just put one person and then the probability that person saw it and wrote back to you was zero.

所以人们只放一个人，然后那个人看到它并给你回信的概率为零。

It's a product which is broken.

这是一个已经损坏的产品。

So it's like you got to understand your problems.

所以这就像你必须了解你的问题。

"Okay, well why?": And then the third one's around really designing for clarity instead of cleverness.

“好吧，那为什么？”：第三个是真正为了清晰而不是聪明而设计。

A lot of people are like, "Oh, we're going to differentiate the design," and we talked about this a little bit with Stories.

很多人都会说，“哦，我们要让设计与众不同”，我们在故事中对此进行了一些讨论。

We're going to make a new version of something, but if something's a standard and people understand it, if you lean into it, you're going to get so much leverage than if you reinvent it, and you have to be really thoughtful around when you reinvent and where you don't.

我们将制作某个东西的新版本，但如果某个东西是一个标准并且人们理解它，那么如果你深入研究它，你将获得比重新发明它更多的影响力，并且当你重新发明和不重新发明时，你必须真正深思熟虑。

"Okay, well why?": And I think on this one, there's this great, Don Norman's book.

“好吧，为什么？”：我认为在这一点上，有一本很棒的唐·诺曼的书。

Obviously, Design of Everyday Things is a big one, but he has this incredible chapter in there about doors, and why is it that after all of these years you walk up to a door, and based on how they're designed at times, people still don't know if you should pull or push that door because if you try to build the as beautiful symmetric two handles on each side on a glass door, it doesn't communicate in for any information to you.

显然，《日常事物的设计》是一本很重要的书，但他在其中有关于门的令人难以置信的一章，以及为什么这么多年之后，当你走到一扇门前，根据门的设计方式，人们有时仍然不知道你应该拉还是推那扇门，因为如果你试图在玻璃门的每一侧建造同样漂亮的对称的两个把手，它不会向你传达任何信息。

"Okay, well why?": And there's lots of, I've seen all the time we've designed new icons when we could have used global icons like, "Oh, wouldn't it be so cool if we used a camera that's kind of a camera but is mostly an AI looking thing and then is mostly, but then has this dots in it that connects it to this other product?"

“好吧，为什么？”：我经常看到我们设计新图标时可以使用全局图标，比如“哦，如果我们使用一个类似相机但主要是人工智能外观的相机，然后里面有一些点将其连接到其他产品，那不是很酷吗？”

"Okay, well why?": And you're like, people just, it's a camera.

“好吧，为什么？”：你会说，它只是一台相机。

Just put the camera in.

只要把相机放进去就可以了

Maybe you could add a little thing to it, and that's how you get people to use your products.

也许你可以添加一些东西，这就是你让人们使用你的产品的方式。

And if you do those three things, I think you typically can do well.

如果你做到了这三件事，我认为你通常可以做得很好。

"Okay, well why?": And then, sorry, the fourth one would be more of the coda is be humble.

“好吧，为什么？”：然后，抱歉，第四个更多的尾声是谦虚。

Constantly and always question yourself.

不断地、永远地质疑自己。

Listen to others, listen to users and be open to being wrong.

倾听他人的声音，倾听用户的声音，并对错误持开放态度。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love these.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢这些。

On that third point, I feel like AI Mode as the name is such a good example of clarity.

关于第三点，我觉得人工智能模式就像它的名字一样，是一个清晰的很好的例子。

What is this?

这是什么？

This is AI Mode.

这就是AI模式。

Robby Stein: We talked about it internally.

Robby Stein：我们内部讨论过。

If you look at it in the tab, it's like everyone know, it's like you see it and you'll know what it is or we could call it something random, but then what is that?

如果你在选项卡中查看它，就像每个人都知道一样，就好像你看到它，你就会知道它是什么，或者我们可以随意称呼它，但那是什么？

And now you're working against yourself.

现在你正在与自己作对。

Lenny Rachitsky: If I were to reflect back these three pieces of basically this is the book you would write to help people build more successful products, it's understand the problem you're solving for people deeply.

Lenny Rachitsky：如果我要回顾一下这三部分，基本上这就是您为帮助人们构建更成功的产品而写的书，它深刻地理解了您正在为人们解决的问题。

What's the job they're hiring you to do?

他们雇用你做什么工作？

I love the, it's lowercase jobs to be done.

我喜欢它，这是要完成的小写工作。

It's not like the rigorous whole thing that everyone-

这并不像每个人都严格要求的那样——

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

This is just like why are people hiring your product to solve a problem for them?

这就像人们为什么要雇用你的产品来为他们解决问题一样？

What problem are they solving?

他们正在解决什么问题？

So it's like basically figure out what problem they're having then very, through data, understand the problem and whether you are solving it.

所以这就像基本上弄清楚他们遇到了什么问题，然后通过数据了解问题以及你是否正在解决它。

And then it's just keep it really simple.

然后就让它变得非常简单。

Clarity over cleverness essentially.

本质上，清晰胜过聪明。

Lenny Rachitsky: And be humble.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：保持谦虚。

Yes.

是的。

Okay, important.

好吧，很重要。

Is there an example that we haven't talked about that shows this in action of just, cool, here's the problem we found.

有没有一个我们没有讨论过的例子来证明这一点，很酷，这就是我们发现的问题。

Here's how we figured out this is the solution and if we're succeeding, and then here's a very simple way of solving it?

这是我们如何找到解决方案的，如果我们成功了，那么这是一个非常简单的解决方法？

Robby Stein: I mean honestly, this Close Friends example, I can give you more from Instagram days was really wild.

Robby Stein：说实话，这个 Close Friends 的例子，我可以给你更多来自 Instagram 的日子，这真的很疯狂。

It took two or three years to get Close Friends to work, and I think people, it totally failed originally.

花了两三年时间才让 Close Friends 开始工作，我想大家，最初完全失败了。

This is the product that lets you add a private list of people and then you can post to your story and then only those people see it.

该产品可让您添加私人名单，然后您可以发布到您的故事，然后只有这些人才能看到它。

It's like this very exclusive private space so you can feel really comfortable sharing maybe more.

这就像一个非常独特的私人空间，因此您可以感到非常舒适地分享也许更多。

Robby Stein: Green circles, yes.

罗比·斯坦：绿色圆圈，是的。

It's one of the most popular, at least when I was there, was one of the most popular features of Stories and did really well, but it totally failed.

这是最受欢迎的功能之一，至少在我在那里的时候是这样，也是故事中最受欢迎的功能之一，而且做得非常好，但它完全失败了。

And I think what we found out was that you actually used a bunch of these techniques here.

我认为我们发现您实际上在这里使用了很多这些技术。

So one was we first thought about it as an overall system problem and you could add a Close Friends post for anything.

因此，我们首先将其视为整体系统问题，您可以为任何内容添加“亲密朋友”帖子。

So you could do a feed post or a Stories post, and you also had a close friend's profile.

所以你可以发布一个提要帖子或一个故事帖子，而且你还有一个亲密朋友的个人资料。

You could see, if Lenny went to Robby's page, we were Close Friends, you would just be like, "Oh, you get to see extra stuff from me on my profile too."

你可以看到，如果莱尼访问罗比的页面，我们是亲密的朋友，你就会说，“哦，你也可以在我的个人资料上看到我的额外内容。”

Robby Stein: So we shipped it, we thought it would be great.

Robby Stein：所以我们发货了，我们认为它会很棒。

This is the be humble part, wasn't great, had a bunch of, it was just super confusing.

这是谦虚的部分，不是很好，有很多，只是超级混乱。

You would see this really beautiful photo and then in the feed right after it, this blurry, very vulnerable moment someone's trying to share with their friends, just felt so out of place and weird for the reason people use feed.

你会看到这张非常漂亮的照片，然后在紧随其后的动态中，这个模糊的、非常脆弱的时刻有人试图与他们的朋友分享，只是因为人们使用动态的原因而感到如此格格不入和奇怪。

And then it was just confusing because it had an extra little green thing on it, but it was like that got a green thing and the Stories one didn't.

然后它只是令人困惑，因为它上面有一个额外的绿色小东西，但就像那个有一个绿色的东西，而故事的没有。

If you open the story, it had a green thing inside the story, and people were just so confused.

如果你打开这个故事，里面有一个绿色的东西，人们很困惑。

Robby Stein: And it had this other issue with the list where you're like, "Okay, the list doesn't work because it's mistranslated and people don't get it." I think it was actually called originally favorites, I want to say, and that encouraged people to just do two people on it.

罗比·斯坦：列表还有另一个问题，你会说，“好吧，这个列表不起作用，因为它翻译错误，人们不明白。”我想说，我认为它最初实际上被称为“最爱”，这鼓励人们只做两个人。

But then the way that it worked was, so this gets to the framework, I guess.

但它的工作方式是这样的，所以我猜这涉及到框架了。

So deeply understand people.

如此深刻地了解人。

What are people trying to do with this?

人们想用这个做什么？

Robby Stein: What they're trying to do is share a vulnerable thing and be like, "Hey, I'm lonely.

罗比·斯坦：他们想做的是分享脆弱的事情，然后说：“嘿，我很孤独。

Hey, what's going on?

嘿，发生什么事了？

Are people up?" And it feels very much like a friend group thing.

人起来了吗？”这感觉很像朋友小组的事情。

Robby Stein: And if you only have two people on it, the job that we're doing is actually connecting you to your friends.

Robby Stein：如果你只有两个人，我们所做的工作实际上就是将你与你的朋友联系起来。

And if you don't get a DM back, it's broken.

如果你没有收到 DM 回复，那么它就坏了。

And so really what we're doing is getting you a DM and we're getting you connection.

所以，我们实际上正在做的是给您发私信，并为您建立联系。

We're getting you a sense of being connected to your Close Friends.

我们让您有一种与亲密朋友保持联系的感觉。

That is the job.

这就是工作。

Robby Stein: It's actually everything Clayton Christensen talked about in the book is there are utility jobs and there are emotional jobs.

罗比·斯坦：实际上克莱顿·克里斯滕森在书中谈到的一切都是公用事业工作和情感工作。

People usually discount the emotional ones a lot.

人们通常会低估情感因素。

This was really an emotional thing as much as it was utility one, and so product's broken, right?

这确实是一件情绪化的事情，就像它是实用的一样，所以产品坏了，对吧？

And people don't even know that it's a close friend story, they just see the little head because you have to click on it to see the thing.

人们甚至不知道这是一个亲密朋友的故事，他们只是看到了那个小头像，因为你必须点击它才能看到它。

And so it just, people stopped using it.

就这样，人们停止使用它。

Robby Stein: We went through and we did these revs where we would simplify it and we would update it and we would go through this change list.

Robby Stein：我们经历了这些修改，我们会简化它，我们会更新它，我们会浏览这个更改列表。

Okay, take this out, take this out, change the name, here.

好吧，把这个拿出来，把这个拿出来，改个名字，就在这里。

And then we saw it was that it was working really well for people who added 20 to 30 people to their list.

然后我们发现，对于将 20 到 30 人添加到列表中的人来说，它的效果非常好。

Because what would happen is you put 30 people on your list and then two of them would write back to you on DM and now you have closed the loop and you feel connected to those people.

因为会发生的情况是，您将 30 个人列入您的名单，然后其中两个人会通过 DM 给您回信，现在您已经完成了循环，您感觉与这些人有联系。

It's a winning thing.

这是一件胜利的事情。

And so we designed the whole system around that, and also only worked in Stories.

所以我们围绕这个设计了整个系统，并且也只在故事中工作。

We were looking at the data, we were trying to understand where it was working and where it was failing, and then we updated the name to Close Friends so it didn't feel like favorites.

我们正在查看数据，试图了解它在哪里有效以及在哪里失败，然后我们将名称更新为“Close Friends”，这样它就不会让人感觉像是最喜欢的。

So it wasn't three people, it's 20.

所以不是三个人，而是二十个人。

Robby Stein: In the list, we built this list builder where we recommended a set of people based on some cool algo that was created by an engineer.

Robby Stein：在列表中，我们构建了这个列表生成器，我们根据工程师创建的一些很酷的算法推荐了一组人员。

And then we updated the design to put the green ring on the outside of the story so that this was the design for clarity.

然后我们更新了设计，将绿色环放在故事的外部，这样设计就清晰了。

We were being cute.

我们本来就很可爱

We thought, I think at the time it was like, "Oh, it's a secret story or something, and if you open it, you see it."

我们想，我想当时就像是，“哦，这是一个秘密故事什么的，如果你打开它，你就会看到它。”

Robby Stein: It just was not clear to people.

罗比·斯坦：人们只是不清楚。

And so we put the green ring on the outside so that users would see it in the tray and be like, "Ooh, what's that little green guy?"

因此，我们将绿色环放在外面，以便用户在托盘中看到它时会说：“哦，那个绿色小家伙是什么？”

Robby Stein: And then they'd click on it and be like, "Oh, this is a private story for me." That system worked and did incredibly well, and that was the process we followed from a total flop to something that was very successful.

罗比·斯坦：然后他们会点击它并说，“哦，这是我的私人故事。”这个系统工作得很好，而且表现得非常好，这就是我们从彻底失败到非常成功的过程。

Lenny Rachitsky: That is an awesome example.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个很棒的例子。

And this took two or three years, you said this process?

而这花了两三年的时间，你说这个过程？

Robby Stein: Yeah, it took a while.

罗比·斯坦：是的，花了一段时间。

That was actually one of the longest projects we worked on, but that actually came, the reason we did it was when we asked people to understand people like, "Why aren't you posting to your story?

这实际上是我们从事的最长的项目之一，但它确实来了，我们这样做的原因是当我们要求人们理解人们时，“你为什么不发布你的故事？

What's preventing you from doing it?"

是什么阻止你这样做？”

Robby Stein: And everyone had some version of, "Well, my ex is on it.

罗比·斯坦：每个人都有一些版本，“嗯，我的前任也在其中。

I have a teacher on it.

我有一个老师在这方面。

Oh, a friend that kind of is judgy is on it."

噢，有一位挑剔的朋友在上面。”

Robby Stein: It was like this commonality was audience problem.

罗比·斯坦：这种共性就像是观众问题。

Someone had an issue with people watching them.

有人对观看他们的人有意见。

And so that gave us conviction to go this hard at it for so long because we knew that that was a core problem with the product.

这让我们坚定了长期努力的信念，因为我们知道这是该产品的核心问题。

Lenny Rachitsky: Was this connected to the Finsta, Rinsta trend also?

Lenny Rachitsky：这也与 Finsta、Rinsta 趋势有关吗？

Robby Stein: It was actually.

罗比·斯坦因：确实如此。

I think that informed us.

我认为这告诉了我们。

Everyone had a Finsta and there was a Binsta.

每个人都有一个 Finsta，也有一个 Binsta。

Robby Stein: Different, it's this layering of people 20 Finstas down to your partner, Pinsta, and then it's basically like, I made that up.

Robby Stein：不同，这是从 20 Finsta 到你的搭档 Pinsta 的人的分层，然后基本上就像是我编造的。

I don't know if it's true, but I'm sure it was out there somewhere.

我不知道这是不是真的，但我确信它就在某个地方。

We were like, "Wow.

我们就像，“哇。

People clearly are trying to hack Instagram basically to create these private smaller group settings, and so we should just make a product."

人们显然试图破解 Instagram，主要是为了创建这些私人的小团体设置，所以我们应该制作一个产品。”

Lenny Rachitsky: How did you actually do this testing?

Lenny Rachitsky：您实际上是如何进行此测试的？

Was it rolled out to some percentage?

是否已按一定比例推出？

Was it rolled out in New Zealand or whatever?

它是在新西兰还是其他地方推出的？

Robby Stein: Yeah, we rolled it out in a few other countries, exactly.

Robby Stein：是的，我们确实在其他几个国家推出了它。

Robby Stein: Got it.

罗比·斯坦因：明白了。

We had a basket of countries that we tried it in and then we would do research.

我们有一篮子国家进行了尝试，然后我们会进行研究。

I think it was Australia was one of the first ones for that one.

我认为澳大利亚是最早这样做的国家之一。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

I was going to ask if you can share the country.

我想问你是否可以分享这个国家。

So Australia.

所以澳大利亚。

Robby Stein: I think that was one of the earlier ones, yeah, but every time you ship something there's a slightly different reason why.

罗比·斯坦（Robby Stein）：我认为这是早期的其中之一，是的，但每次你发货时都有一个稍微不同的原因。

Lenny Rachitsky: Oh, interesting.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：哦，有趣。

So it's not always Australia gets all the new stuff.

所以澳大利亚并不总是能获得所有新东西。

Robby Stein: No, although it sometimes is.

罗比·斯坦：不，虽然有时是这样。

Australia and Canada get a lot of stuff just because easier for the teams to see feedback from them.

澳大利亚和加拿大得到了很多东西，只是因为团队更容易看到他们的反馈。

Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome, okay, let me go in a different direction and talk about something that you have a hot take on.

Lenny Rachitsky：太棒了，好吧，让我换个方向，谈谈你认为很热门的事情。

There's a lot of talk these days about lean teams, small teams, just creating limited resources, not hiring at all.

现在有很多关于精益团队、小团队的讨论，它们只是创造有限的资源，而不是招聘。

You have an opposite perspective of you actually need a lot of resources to build really big breakthroughs.

你有相反的观点，你实际上需要大量资源来实现真正的重大突破。

Talk about your experience there.

谈谈你在那里的经历。

Robby Stein: Yeah, I mean I think there's obviously, depends on what you're trying to build and there's been famously small teams building big impact products, but I think there's this cult of lean, scrappy, fast, throw away your product quickly, keep moving.

罗比·斯坦：是的，我的意思是，我认为显然，这取决于你想要构建什么，并且有著名的小团队构建大影响力的产品，但我认为有一种精益、斗志、快速的崇拜，快速扔掉你的产品，继续前进。

And I think at some level it's true for internal conviction, but to build a product that works for a lot of people that is based on a technological breakthrough.

我认为在某种程度上，这对于内部信念来说是正确的，但要打造一款基于技术突破、适合很多人的产品。

A lot of times, I see teams just give up to early or under invest in the product, and obviously the space matters.

很多时候，我看到团队只是放弃对产品的早期投资或投资不足，显然空间​​很重要。

And if you're building a single product that is a way to, I don't know, do something with a digital app that's fairly straightforward, that's going to be different than building a robotics company.

如果你正在构建一个单一产品，我不知道，通过一个相当简单的数字应用程序做一些事情，这将与建立一家机器人公司不同。

So what you're building does change.

所以你正在构建的东西确实会改变。

Robby Stein: But even for software, I mean I think for really hard technical problems, think about the amount of time and effort it took for teams to build a foundational model, and how many years and hundreds and hundreds of people that were needed for that to happen.

Robby Stein：但即使对于软件，我的意思是，对于真正困难的技术问题，请考虑团队构建基础模型所需的时间和精力，以及需要多少年和成百上千的人员才能实现这一目标。

And you think about these large companies that have had huge impacts on people, and I think particularly for bigger companies internally, something I've seen is it's almost too scrappy because it never gets enough momentum.

你想想这些对人们产生巨大影响的大公司，我认为特别是对于内部的大公司，我所看到的是它几乎太斗志旺盛，因为它永远没有足够的动力。

The product never gets good enough internally and then it just dies on the vine.

产品在内部永远不够好，然后就死在了藤蔓上。

Whereas if you put more people on it, you have to be careful not to put too many too soon.

然而，如果你投入更多的人，你必须小心，不要投入太多太快。

But I see the opposite more true where people hold on to small teams too long and then you, either takes forever to get to the thing you're looking for.

但我认为相反的情况更真实，人们坚持小团队太久，然后你要么花很长时间才能得到你正在寻找的东西。

Robby Stein: This Close Friends example I mentioned this actually was a small team.

Robby Stein：在这个 Close Friends 的例子中，我提到这实际上是一个小团队。

One of the reasons it took us forever was it kept the team so small and scrappy.

我们花了很长时间才完成的原因之一是它让团队变得如此小而斗志旺盛。

That loop cycle was so short and by a startup age you'd be dead probably.

这个循环周期太短了，到了创业时代你可能就死了。

So you can maybe do that in a bigger company, but as a startup, I don't know if you have that leisure.

所以你也许可以在一家更大的公司做到这一点，但作为一家初创公司，我不知道你是否有那个闲暇。

And so I think you need to actually think what is the group I need to build a version that's great.

所以我认为你需要真正思考我需要什么样的团队来构建一个很棒的版本。

And from first principles, really think about it instead of just embracing blindly, okay, we're going to be the two of us until this thing has escaped velocity market fit, which it's not always true.

从首要原则出发，真正考虑一下它，而不是盲目地拥抱，好吧，我们将成为我们两个人，直到这件事脱离了速度市场的适应，但这并不总是正确的。

Lenny Rachitsky: This is definitely counter to the narrative we see on Twitter.

Lenny Rachitsky：这绝对与我们在 Twitter 上看到的叙述相反。

Anything you can share about just the heuristic you use to decide here's how long to keep it small?

您可以分享一下您用来决定保持小规模多长时间的启发法吗？

I know there's not going to be this step 1, 2, 3, but just like what I'm hearing is start small to prove out the concept designer PM engineer maybe.

我知道不会有第 1、2、3 步，但就像我听到的那样，从小处开始，也许可以证明概念设计师 PM 工程师的能力。

When do you find that makes sense to go big?

你什么时候发现做大是有意义的？

Robby Stein: Yeah, I think that it's mostly when you've hit the conviction moment.

罗比·斯坦：是的，我认为这主要是当你达到坚定信念的时刻时。

I think there's two big milestones.

我认为有两个重要的里程碑。

There's internal conviction.

有内在的信念。

For yourself, do you believe in it?

对于你自己来说，你相信吗？

And you believe in it because there's some external validation, your friends, you put 20 friends on it.

你相信它，因为有一些外部验证，你的朋友，你放了 20 个朋友。

And by the way, I found out very quickly building startups that if you put 20 friends on something, they're not going to do you that many favors.

顺便说一句，我很快就发现，在创办初创公司时，如果你让 20 个朋友来做某件事，他们不会给你那么多帮助。

They're not going to use a product every single day because they're your friend 30 days in, 60 days in, 90 days in.

他们不会每天都使用某个产品，因为他们在 30 天、60 天、90 天里都是你的朋友。

They're not using your product unless you're doing something that's useful to them.

除非您正在做对他们有用的事情，否则他们不会使用您的产品。

And so you get all of this feedback and you're seeing people really enjoy it.

所以你得到了所有这些反馈，并且你看到人们真的很喜欢它。

You get to that moment.

你到了那一刻。

Robby Stein: And then I think that's not a product that would win externally because if you were to ship it, it's broken, doesn't work great.

罗比·斯坦：然后我认为这不是一个能够在外部赢得胜利的产品，因为如果你要运送它，它就会损坏，无法正常工作。

And then you need to, I think invest enough to make the best version of it or as good a version as you can to get it out the door and to ship it.

然后，我认为你需要投入足够的资金来制作最好的版本，或者尽可能好的版本，以将其推出并发货。

And I think that that, it's like you want to build the right product eventually is the mentality and you can only really do that with the right group.

我认为，就像你想要最终打造出正确的产品一样，你的心态是这样的，只有与正确的团队一起才能真正做到这一点。

Lenny Rachitsky: I'm going to take us to a recurring segment on the podcast that I call AI Corner.

Lenny Rachitsky：我将带我们进入播客中的一个重复部分，我称之为“AI Corner”。

Lenny Rachitsky: What's some way that you've found use for AI in your work, in your life that is really interesting, really helpful, maybe other people can be inspired by?

Lenny Rachitsky：您发现人工智能在工作和生活中的哪些用途非常有趣、非常有帮助，也许其他人可以从中受到启发？

Robby Stein: I think one of the coolest trends ever is how AI is affecting multimodal visual and inspirational needs for people.

Robby Stein：我认为有史以来最酷的趋势之一是人工智能如何影响人们的多模式视觉和灵感需求。

And we're early in this and I think this is something that I'm actually working on as a project as well, but right now if you think about what AI has done in large part, it was born and grew up in this text modality, it was chat.

我们还处于早期阶段，我认为这也是我实际上正在做的一个项目，但现在如果你想想人工智能在很大程度上做了什么，它是在这种文本模式中诞生和成长的，那就是聊天。

And so for a long time, if you were to ask it to help you, what's a cool way to redecorate your bookshelf behind you?

所以很长一段时间以来，如果你要求它来帮助你，有什么很酷的方式来重新装饰你身后的书架呢？

It's going to describe that to you in text, because that's what it knows.

它将以文本形式向您描述这一点，因为这就是它所知道的。

But increasingly, AI is going to be liberated to help in every possible modality.

但人工智能将越来越多地被解放出来，以各种可能的方式提供帮助。

Robby Stein: This is something that we've seen a lot with this explosive use of Google Lens and our image search and image features and with this deep understanding, and what I'm actually starting to use internally and some things that we're excited about more coming up that we actually announced at I/O that we're going to going to be building more of was how AI can help with inspiration, how AI can help with shopping and helping you really get things done that are more in the inspiring bucket of needs versus these core utilities like code, math, homework side of things.

Robby Stein：通过 Google Lens 的爆炸性使用以及我们的图像搜索和图像功能以及这种深入的理解，我们已经看到了很多东西，我实际上开始在内部使用这些东西，我们对即将出现的更多东西感到兴奋，我们实际上在 I/O 上宣布，我们将构建更多的东西，即人工智能如何帮助激发灵感，人工智能如何帮助购物并帮助你真正完成比这些核心实用程序（如代码、数学、家庭作业方面的事情。

Robby Stein: And I'm really excited for things that are coming where you can ask it for inspirational tasks and it's starting to do really fascinating things in terms of what I'm seeing and hopefully we'll share more on that soon.

Robby Stein：我对即将到来的事情感到非常兴奋，你可以要求它完成鼓舞人心的任务，就我所看到的而言，它开始做一些真正令人着迷的事情，希望我们很快能分享更多相关内容。

But I think the one thing I can share is there's a visual version of AI Mode that basically we talked about at I/O, and so you can reference some of those keynotes, but that's in the process of being rolled out.

但我认为我可以分享的一件事是 AI 模式的视觉版本，基本上我们在 I/O 上讨论过，所以你可以参考其中的一些主题演讲，但它正在推出的过程中。

Robby Stein: And so you're going to be able to now ask what's a mid-century modern beautiful office design with dark themes?

罗比·斯坦：所以你现在可以问什么是带有黑暗主题的中世纪现代美丽办公室设计？

It'll be able to produce this image board that's inspirational and you can do multi-turn with it.

它将能够生成这个鼓舞人心的图像板，您可以用它进行多轮旋转。

And so you'll be able to go and say, "Actually, I want more of a light theme, more creamy, more California, more coastal vibe." And it'll do that and it'll understand that and it'll actually see the images and be able to turn with you in the way that text works, which is going to be really cool.

所以你可以说：“实际上，我想要更多的浅色主题，更多的奶油味，更多的加州，更多的沿海氛围。”它会做到这一点，它会理解这一点，它会真正看到图像，并能够以文本的方式与你一起转动，这将非常酷。

So I think that's going to be one of the more exciting things that will be new to AI soon.

所以我认为这将成为人工智能即将出现的最令人兴奋的新事物之一。

Lenny Rachitsky: What I'm hearing is Nano Banana integrated into AI Mode.

Lenny Rachitsky：我听到的是 Nano Banana 集成到了 AI 模式中。

Recipe for success.

成功的秘诀。

Robby Stein: Well, it's a little different than Nano Banana because Nano Banana is an image editor.

Robby Stein：嗯，它与 Nano Banana 有点不同，因为 Nano Banana 是一个图像编辑器。

This is more like helping you find images on the web, so it's a little bit more like AI inspiration, AI image search, and allowing you to then talk with two effectively visual responses with natural language.

这更像是帮助你在网络上查找图像，所以它有点像人工智能灵感、人工智能图像搜索，然后让你用自然语言与两个有效的视觉反应进行对话。

So that's going to I think, be a little bit different than edit this photo so that it changes it.

所以我认为，这与编辑这张照片有点不同，以便改变它。

Although potentially an interesting idea too, to have an ability to take a picture of your living room.

虽然也可能是一个有趣的想法，但能够为你的客厅拍照。

And I think AI will help with that too ultimately.

我认为人工智能最终也将对此有所帮助。

Lenny Rachitsky: Pinterest is in trouble, feels like this is what people use Pinterest for.

Lenny Rachitsky：Pinterest 遇到了麻烦，感觉这就是人们使用 Pinterest 的目的。

Here's all the inspiration.

这就是所有的灵感。

Now it's just AI doing it all.

现在这一切都由人工智能来完成。

By the way, Nano Banana, where does this name come from?

对了，纳米香蕉，这个名字是怎么来的呢？

Robby Stein: I don't actually, I forget that.

Robby Stein：实际上我不知道，我忘记了。

There's a story somewhere.

某处有一个故事。

I forget it now honestly.

老实说，我现在忘记了。

But the team I think came from a scrappy, fun group of people building this and they wanted to go for something fun for folks to-

但我认为这个团队是由一群斗志旺盛、有趣的人组成的，他们想要为人们创造一些有趣的东西——

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, it feels like that's a part of the reason things have started to work.

Lenny Rachitsky：是的，感觉这就是事情开始发挥作用的部分原因。

There's just more fun and delight and random crazy stuff coming out.

只会有更多的乐趣和喜悦以及随机的疯狂的东西出现。

Robby Stein: It does.

罗比·斯坦：确实如此。

It feels a little more like when I was at Google the first time through right now where you just have so much stuff and this kind of fun curiosity happening where people want to try things and ship things and yeah, hopefully that continues.

这感觉有点像我第一次在谷歌工作时的感觉，现在有这么多东西，人们想要尝试一些东西并交付一些东西，这种有趣的好奇心就发生了，是的，希望这种情况能够持续下去。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, it feels like Veo 3 would be even more successful if it had a wacky name.

Lenny Rachitsky：是的，如果 Veo 3 有一个古怪的名字，感觉会更成功。

And I like that this is the opposite of your advice of clarity.

我喜欢这与你的清晰建议相反。

I don't know what Nano Banana is, but it worked.

我不知道纳米香蕉是什么，但它有效。

Robby Stein: Yeah, it's the other thing.

罗比·斯坦：是的，这是另一回事。

No advice is right universally, right?

没有任何建议是放之四海而皆准的，对吧？

But yeah, Nano Banana.

但是，是的，纳米香蕉。

Lenny Rachitsky: Robby, is there anything else that you wanted to share?

Lenny Rachitsky：Robby，你还有什么想分享的吗？

Anything else you want to leave listeners with as a final nugget of wisdom before we get to a very exciting lightning round?

在我们进入激动人心的闪电回合之前，您还有什么想留给听众的最后智慧吗？

Robby Stein: This concept: be curious.

罗比·斯坦：这个概念：保持好奇心。

I think of embodying everything as like it's really about curiosity.

我认为将一切都体现为真正与好奇心有关。

It's about wanting to know why everything is the way it is.

这是关于想要知道为什么一切都是这样的。

Why is someone doing something?

为什么有人要做某事？

Why does someone have a different opinion than I do?

为什么有人的看法与我不同？

Why might this not be working?

为什么这可能不起作用？

And the people who really have that level of intense curiosity and they chase things down until they know, I think you're well served by that.

那些真正具有强烈好奇心的人，他们会追寻事物直到他们知道，我认为你会从中受益匪浅。

That would be my only parting thought.

这是我唯一的临别想法。

Lenny Rachitsky: Let me follow that thread actually, because it's maybe the most trending term on the podcast over the past few months is curiosity.

Lenny Rachitsky：让我实际上关注这个线索，因为这可能是过去几个月播客上最流行的术语“好奇心”。

It comes up a lot when I ask people, what are you teaching your kids and embracing with the rise of AI and curiosity comes up all the time.

当我问人们，随着人工智能的兴起，你在教你的孩子什么并拥抱什么时，这个问题经常出现，好奇心一直在出现。

Is there anything that helps you?

有什么可以帮助你的吗？

Is it just like I am good at this and I am curious innately and I'm just, "This is valuable." Is there anything you can share that helps you or others around you embody that and actually be curious?

是不是就像我很擅长这个，我天生很好奇，我只是说，“这很有价值。”您可以分享什么来帮助您或您周围的其他人体现这一点并真正感到好奇吗？

Robby Stein: Well, I mean AI is obviously the ultimate curiosity engine, and that's what's so cool is you can now ask anything and just get information.

罗比·斯坦：嗯，我的意思是人工智能显然是终极好奇心引擎，这就是很酷的地方，因为你现在可以问任何事情并获取信息。

And so I find that people just appreciate just how much they can learn about whatever they want.

所以我发现人们很感激他们能学到很多他们想要的东西。

But also, I think that a lot of this also comes down to studying what you want to know about, and knowing where the branches of knowledge live there.

而且，我认为这很大程度上还取决于研究你想了解的内容，并了解知识的分支在哪里。

A lot of times I'll read old papers and PDFs that are free online on a statistics thing if I want to learn about that and I think people under appreciate those.

很多时候，如果我想了解统计方面的知识，我会阅读在线免费的旧论文和 PDF，而且我认为人们不太欣赏这些内容。

There's analog old school great learning and AI can help you discover them.

有模拟老派的伟大学习，人工智能可以帮助你发现它们。

I'm using AI, I'm particularly at Google to help discover all these cool links and things to read, but I find that that is an interesting hybrid where it's not just AI but really going to original sources more.

我正在使用人工智能，我特别在谷歌帮助发现所有这些很酷的链接和阅读的东西，但我发现这是一个有趣的混合体，它不仅仅是人工智能，而且更多地是原始来源。

I find that these books I mentioned on the chat here, I find that you need a blend of all of those things to ultimately really get to the bottom of things ultimately.

我发现我在聊天中提到的这些书，我发现你需要混合所有这些东西才能最终真正弄清事情的真相。

Lenny Rachitsky: Actually reading the thing, not just reading the summary of the thing.

Lenny Rachitsky：真正阅读该内容，而不仅仅是阅读该内容的摘要。

Lenny Rachitsky: Let me actually ask you this question I've been asking all these people that are at the cutting edge of AI.

Lenny Rachitsky：让我实际上问你这个问题，我一直在问所有这些处于人工智能前沿的人。

You have kids, is there anything you're thinking about and leaning into helping them learn, develop as AI emerges and becomes a big part of the world?

您有孩子，随着人工智能的出现并成为世界的重要组成部分，您是否正在考虑并倾向于帮助他们学习、发展？

Robby Stein: The biggest thing I'm doing, I have younger kids, so the biggest thing I'm doing is they're using live versions of AI that they just talk to now much more.

Robby Stein：我正在做的最重要的事情，我有年幼的孩子，所以我正在做的最重要的事情是他们正在使用实时版本的人工智能，他们现在只是更多地与他们交谈。

And so funny enough, we actually just launched search live actually out of Labs this week.

非常有趣的是，我们实际上本周刚刚在实验室之外推出了实时搜索。

And so you can talk to search in a live AI setting, which is conversational voice.

因此，您可以在实时人工智能环境中进行搜索，即对话语音。

Voice on when you're driving, you can just talk all the knowledge I talked about where you can do with Google, you can talk to it in a normal conversation with your voice.

当你开车的时候，你可以把我讲的所有知识都讲出来，你可以用谷歌来做，你可以用你的声音在正常的对话中与它交谈。

And I found that to be incredibly accessible for kids.

我发现这对于孩子们来说非常容易理解。

Robby Stein: And I hear all my kids come home, they're like, "Can I talk to Google about something?"

罗比·斯坦：我听到我所有的孩子回家后，他们都会说，“我可以和谷歌谈谈一些事情吗？”

"What do you need?

“你需要什么？

What do you need to say?": And then they go to my app, they hit the live button and they just start talking to it.

你需要说什么？”：然后他们进入我的应用程序，点击实时按钮，然后开始与其交谈。

They want to know about animals, they want to know about certain, I don't know, history things.

他们想了解动物，他们想了解某些我不知道的历史事物。

They learn about something in school, and it's so natural to learn in that way that I think that that's helping them become much more AI native than any other thing I'm doing.

他们在学校学习一些东西，以这种方式学习是很自然的，我认为这比我所做的任何其他事情都更能帮助他们成为人工智能原生者。

Lenny Rachitsky: Life as a parent is going to be way too easy now whenever kids have questions, "Just go talk to the AI," but I don't think that's bad.

Lenny Rachitsky：现在，每当孩子们有疑问时，作为父母的生活就会变得太容易了，“只要去和人工智能交谈”，但我认为这并不是坏事。

So this is within the Google search app.

这是在 Google 搜索应用程序中。

There's a live, how do you access this?

有直播，如何观看？

Robby Stein: Yeah, that's exactly right.

罗比·斯坦：是的，完全正确。

You go to Google app, so there's one of the apps in the App Store you mentioned.

您访问 Google 应用程序，因此 App Store 中有您提到的应用程序之一。

You open Google and there's a button now that's live on it, right on the home screen.

你打开谷歌，现在有一个按钮在主屏幕上。

And if you tap on, it's a live version of AI Mode that you can just talk to.

如果你点击，它就是一个实时版本的人工智能模式，你可以直接与之交谈。

It's a full screen experience, and we'll say start talking.

这是全屏体验，我们会说开始说话。

Lenny Rachitsky: In the show notes, I'm going to link to this project that somebody built, Eric Antonow, which I love.

Lenny Rachitsky：在演出笔记中，我将链接到有人构建的这个项目，Eric Antonow，我很喜欢。

It basically shows you how to put a little speaker into a little stuffed animal and you connect the speaker to, it could be Google Live or it could be ChatGPT, whatever you like, in voice mode.

它基本上向您展示了如何将一个小扬声器放入一个小毛绒动物中，然后您将扬声器连接到，它可以是 Google Live，也可以是 ChatGPT，无论您喜欢什么，都可以在语音模式下进行。

And you put it on your shoulder, you get a little magnet that attaches, and your kids could talk to this parrot, for example, and you could tell it, "Talk in a pirate voice," and so they're talking to his pirate.

你把它放在你的肩膀上，你会得到一个附着的小磁铁，你的孩子可以和这只鹦鹉说话，例如，你可以告诉它，“用海盗的声音说话”，所以他们正在和他的海盗说话。

Robby Stein: Oh, that's really funny.

罗比·斯坦：哦，这真的很有趣。

Okay, that's really cute.

好吧，这真的很可爱。

Lenny Rachitsky: It takes 15 minutes.

Lenny Rachitsky：需要 15 分钟。

You could get an X-Acto knife and sew it and stuff and it's fun.

你可以拿一把 X-Acto 刀来缝制它之类的东西，这很有趣。

I made one for my nephew and he was looking for treasure with this parrot.

我为我的侄子做了一只，他正在和这只鹦鹉一起寻找宝藏。

Robby Stein: That's really adorable, I'm definitely going to look into that.

罗比·斯坦：这真的很可爱，我肯定会研究一下。

Lenny Rachitsky: Robby, with that, we've reached our very exciting lightning round.

Lenny Rachitsky：Robby，这样我们就进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。

I've got five questions for you.

我有五个问题要问你。

Are you ready?

你准备好了吗？

Lenny Rachitsky: What are two or three books that you find yourself recommending most to other people?

Lenny Rachitsky：您最常向其他人推荐的两三本书是什么？

Robby Stein: I mean, definitely the two I mentioned here.

罗比·斯坦：我的意思是，肯定是我在这里提到的两个。

Clayton Christensen, Competing Against Luck.

克莱顿·克里斯滕森，《与运气竞争》。

Don Norman, Design of Everyday Things.

唐·诺曼，《日常事物的设计》。

But I also really love this for fiction, Aurora, which is this book David Koepp wrote.

但我也非常喜欢小说《奥罗拉》，这是大卫·科普写的这本书。

It's about electromagnetic pulse in the sun that knocks out, it's fiction for just fun.

这是关于太阳中的电磁脉冲的故事，这只是为了好玩而虚构的。

And it was a really fun beach read and apparently it was going to be made into a Netflix show, it didn't work out.

这是一本非常有趣的海滩读物，显然它会被拍成 Netflix 的节目，但没有成功。

I don't know.

我不知道。

It was sad to see that fall apart, but so it's a really fun book.

看到它分崩离析令人难过，但这是一本非常有趣的书。

Lenny Rachitsky: There's a book along those lines that I love, they're making a movie of it right now called Hail Mary.

Lenny Rachitsky：有一本书是我喜欢的，他们现在正在拍一部电影，名叫《万福玛丽》。

Robby Stein: Oh, I'm in the middle of reading that right now.

罗比·斯坦因：哦，我现在正在读这篇文章。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, they're making a movie of it.

Lenny Rachitsky：是的，他们正在拍一部电影。

How about that?

怎么样？

Robby Stein: In the middle of reading it.

罗比·斯坦：正在读。

It's getting wacky where I am right now, but I'm excited to see where it goes.

我现在所处的位置变得很奇怪，但我很高兴看到它的发展方向。

Lenny Rachitsky: It gets wackier.

Lenny Rachitsky：事情变得更古怪了。

The ending especially wacky.

结局特别荒唐。

Lenny Rachitsky: What is a recent movie or TV show you've really enjoyed?

Lenny Rachitsky：您最近真正喜欢的电影或电视节目是什么？

Robby Stein: I love The Bear.

罗比斯坦：我喜欢熊。

I think that's just absolutely awesome show.

我认为这绝对是一场精彩的表演。

Dune, of course.

当然是沙丘。

And I thought the new Top Gun is a little old now, but I think the new Top Gun was so fun and awesome.

我认为新的《Top Gun》现在有点老了，但我认为新的《Top Gun》非常有趣而且很棒。

Lenny Rachitsky: Is there a product you've recently discovered that you really love?

Lenny Rachitsky：您最近发现有一款您真正喜欢的产品吗？

It cannot be AI Mode.

不可能是AI模式。

Robby Stein: I'm going to use a non-digital product.

Robby Stein：我将使用非数字产品。

Robby Stein: I'm super into this new pillow that I got called Purple Pillow, and I've been recommending it to everyone at work.

罗比·斯坦：我非常喜欢这款新枕头，我把它称为“紫色枕头”，我一直在向工作中的每个人推荐它。

We're on a pillow chat now.

我们现在正在枕头聊天。

It's a thing.

这是一件事。

It's like you talk about what pillows we're getting, but it's this really cool thing where it's got this new technology of this honeycomb polymer that's inside and so it supports you and it has these little micro holes so it doesn't get hot.

就像你谈论我们要买什么枕头一样，但这真的很酷，里面有这种蜂窝聚合物的新技术，所以它可以支撑你，而且它有这些小微孔，所以不会变热。

It's really cool.

真的很酷。

Big fan.

大粉丝。

Strongly recommend Purple Pillow.

强烈推荐紫色枕头。

Lenny Rachitsky: I've never heard of this thing, I am excited.

Lenny Rachitsky：我从来没有听说过这件事，我很兴奋。

I recently got an avocado pillow, focusing on low toxins.

我最近买了一个鳄梨枕头，专注于低毒素。

Robby Stein: Oh, those are good.

罗比·斯坦：哦，这些都很好。

I've heard good things about those too, yeah.

我也听说过有关这些的好消息，是的。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, I got to join this pillow.

Lenny Rachitsky：好吧，我得加入这个枕头。

Pillow talk is a great name for it by the way.

顺便说一句，枕边谈话是一个很好的名字。

Robby Stein: You're into pillows too.

罗比·斯坦因：你也喜欢枕头。

That's great.

那太棒了。

Lenny Rachitsky: But I did upgrade my pillow.

Lenny Rachitsky：但我确实升级了我的枕头。

This is not Mr. Pillow, whatever that guy is, right?

这不是枕头先生，不管那个人是什么，对吧？

Is that guy that, there's like a controversial pillow guy.

那个家伙就是那个，有争议的枕头人吗？

Okay.

好的。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

Purple Pillow.

紫色枕头。

I'm going to ask AI Mode.

我要问AI模式。

Lenny Rachitsky: Next question.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：下一个问题。

Do you have a favorite life motto that you find yourself coming back to in life?

您有没有最喜欢的人生格言，并且在生活中会反复遵循？

Robby Stein: This is be curious.

罗比·斯坦因：这很奇怪。

I think I almost named a company Curious.

我想我差点把一家公司命名为“好奇”。

I just think it's a really awesome, there's one thing in life.

我只是觉得这真的很棒，生活中只有一件事。

It's that in terms of getting things done, in terms of understanding the world, people, your kids, your family.

就是在完成事情方面，在了解世界、人、你的孩子、你的家庭方面。

You always just want to know more and question things outside yourself, not feel like you have all the answers.

你总是只想了解更多并质疑自己之外的事物，而不是觉得自己拥有所有答案。

I think that's really important.

我认为这非常重要。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love that.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢这个。

Final question, okay, so speaking of startups, you started a company called Stamped back in the day, it got acquired by Yahoo.

最后一个问题，好吧，说到初创公司，你当时创办了一家名为 Stamped 的公司，它被雅虎收购了。

I hear there's a story where you got Justin Bieber on your app and that was a big deal and a big inflection in the success of the app.

我听说有一个故事，你的应用程序中加入了贾斯汀·比伯 (Justin Bieber)，这对应用程序的成功来说是一件大事，也是一个重大转折。

Can you just tell that story?

你能简单讲一下这个故事吗？

Robby Stein: Yeah, it's a wild story.

罗比·斯坦因：是的，这是一个疯狂的故事。

Just to scene set a little bit.

只是为了场景设置一点。

I was 25 right after Google being an IC PM in New York with some Google friends building this company.

25 岁时，我刚刚在纽约担任 Google IC PM，与一些 Google 朋友一起创建了这家公司。

So very early on, and maybe in a good way and no idea what I was doing.

所以很早就开始了，也许是以一种好的方式，但不知道我在做什么。

But basically we decided that the concept of Stamped was to put your stamp on your favorite things, get recommendations from friends and from people that you trust.

但基本上我们认为 Stamped 的概念是在你最喜欢的东西上盖上你的印记，从朋友和你信任的人那里获得推荐。

And so you think of a Twitter feed, but it's all stuff that people think is cool.

所以你会想到 Twitter feed，但它都是人们认为很酷的东西。

Robby Stein: It's like books, restaurants, food.

罗比·斯坦：就像书籍、餐馆、食物。

Products, exactly.

产品，确切地说。

Robby Stein: Pillows could be on there.

罗比·斯坦：枕头可能在上面。

I would totally stamp this pillow and then you could discover it.

我会完全盖上这个枕头，然后你就会发现它。

And one of the cold star problems was obviously you want a group of people that are on it that are already using it, that could have some tastemaker type folks.

其中一个冷星问题显然是你想要一群已经在使用它的人，其中可能有一些风尚引领者类型的人。

We had a bunch of people that were chefs and we had people who were literary folks.

我们有一群人是厨师，也有一些人是文学家。

And then we wanted to get a couple people that were more musicians, artists, and these influential folks.

然后我们想要找一些更多的音乐家、艺术家和有影响力的人。

Robby Stein: My co-founder and I just basically got the contact of Scooter Braun, who's Justin's manager, and we just sent out an email and we were like, "Hey, we're in New York.

罗比·斯坦：我和我的联合创始人基本上刚刚联系了贾斯汀的经理斯库特·布劳恩，我们刚刚发出了一封电子邮件，我们说：“嘿，我们在纽约。

We're going to be in LA tomorrow." I think we said something, I don't remember all the details, but it was something like tomorrow.

明天我们要去洛杉矶。”我想我们说了些什么，我不记得所有的细节，但那是关于明天的事情。

Lenny Rachitsky: And you were not going to be in LA tomorrow.

Lenny Rachitsky：而且你明天不会去洛杉矶。

"Do you happen to be there?": And he just wrote back some one line thing like, "Meet me at this hotel for breakfast at something."

“你碰巧在那儿吗？”：他只是回了一句话，比如“在这家酒店约我吃早餐。”

And we're like, "Oh, okay.": We literally went immediately to the airport.

我们就像，“哦，好吧。”：我们立即去了机场。

I just remember just basically going straight to the airport, flying to LA meeting with him.

我只记得基本上是直接去机场，飞往洛杉矶与他会面。

We gave him the whole pitch, we showed him the product, and then he was like, "Okay, I think this would be super cool.

我们向他提供了整个推介，向他展示了产品，然后他说：“好吧，我认为这会非常酷。

We can be involved and maybe you can help be an advisor."

我们可以参与其中，也许你可以帮忙担任顾问。”

And we're like, "Oh, okay.": And we ended up going back and meeting with Justin and showing him the product and even filming some little clips with him.

我们就像，“哦，好吧。”：我们最终回去与贾斯汀会面，向他展示了产品，甚至和他一起拍摄了一些小片段。

It was actually really funny and it was a really fun moment.

这实际上真的很有趣，这是一个非常有趣的时刻。

And obviously he was using it to stamp his favorite stuff.

显然他用它来标记他最喜欢的东西。

And so people would go, "Oh, Justin's into this song, or he is into this stuff," and would post that.

所以人们会说，“哦，贾斯汀喜欢这首歌，或者他喜欢这些东西”，然后就会发布这个内容。

And we're like, "Oh, okay.": It was one of the ways that we got lots of people to try out and see what we were doing.

我们就像，“哦，好吧。”：这是我们让很多人尝试并看看我们在做什么的方式之一。

That's a little extra scrappy moment in time, but I think it embodies a good lesson.

虽然那是一个额外的争吵时刻，但我认为它体现了一个很好的教训。

Just do it now, be scrappy, be immediate.

现在就做，斗志旺盛，立即行动。

Intense urgency usually wins over thinking about it for a long time, and that's certainly proved to be true on that one.

强烈的紧迫感通常会胜过长时间的思考，事实证明这一点确实正确。

Lenny Rachitsky: Incredible story, thank you for sharing that.

Lenny Rachitsky：令人难以置信的故事，谢谢您分享。

So many lessons to take away.

有很多教训值得吸取。

Two final questions, where can folks find online if they want to reach out, maybe learn more about what you're doing and how can listeners be useful to you?

最后两个问题，如果人们想要联系，可以在哪里找到在线信息，也许可以更多地了解您正在做的事情以及听众如何对您有用？

Robby Stein: Yeah, I think on X @rmstein is probably the best single place.

Robby Stein：是的，我认为 X @rmstein 可能是最好的单身地方。

And then to be helpful, send me feedback.

然后，为了提供帮助，请向我发送反馈。

DM me, just mention me, ping me, let me know problems with Google products, with AI in general, but also just anything.

私信我，只要提到我，告诉我，让我知道谷歌产品的问题，一般人工智能的问题，但也可以是任何事情。

As I said before, you have to always listen to people understand their experiences, so ping the ideas and feedback.

正如我之前所说，你必须始终倾听人们了解他们的经历，以便了解想法和反馈。

That's the best way to be helpful.

这是提供帮助的最好方式。

Lenny Rachitsky: Wow.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：哇。

What an onslaught you're about to receive of feedback on the search experience.

您将收到关于搜索体验的大量反馈。

Lenny Rachitsky: "Robby, why is this link second?

Lenny Rachitsky：“Robby，为什么这个链接排在第二位？

Why is my site not at the top?" I can only imagine the kind of stuff people complain about.

为什么我的网站不在顶部？”我只能想象人们抱怨的事情。

Robby, thank you so much for being here.

罗比，非常感谢你来到这里。

Lenny Rachitsky: Thank you so much for listening.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：非常感谢您的聆听。

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如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating, or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

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您可以在 lennyspodcasts.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。