Product management theater | Marty Cagan (Silicon Valley Product Group)

Lenny: We rarely get a peek into what it's like to work at TikTok.

莱尼：我们很少了解在 TikTok 工作的情况。

What are some core principles or values or just how TikTok operates?

有哪些核心原则或价值观，或者 TikTok 的运作方式是什么？

Ray Cao: The number one thing is context, no control.

曹睿：第一件事是环境，没有控制。

That's the reason why we're always encouraging people to see themselves as a business owner.

这就是为什么我们总是鼓励人们将自己视为企业主。

Lenny: You give them all the information they need and then let them just do things without specific instructions.

莱尼：你给他们提供他们需要的所有信息，然后让他们在没有具体指示的情况下做事。

Ray Cao: How do you actually solve the puzzle by connecting all the dots together?

Ray Cao：你是如何将所有的点连接在一起来真正解决这个难题的？

Just like how I see some of my friends, their kids playing Legos, if you don't really see the full picture, you won't be able to make the Lego as one thing at the end of the day.

就像我看到我的一些朋友，他们的孩子在玩乐高积木一样，如果你没有真正看到全貌，你最终将无法将乐高积木做成一件事。

You have to see the other pieces.

你必须看看其他作品。

Lenny: What else are important cultural values of TikTok, of how TikTok operates that everyone always has in mind when they're building?

Lenny：每个人在构建时都会牢记 TikTok 的运营方式以及 TikTok 的运营方式，还有哪些重要的文化价值观？

Ray Cao: We always have this mentality we are a startup, we're a young company, we're always hungry for growth.

Ray Cao：我们一直有这样的心态：我们是一家初创公司，我们是一家年轻的公司，我们总是渴望成长。

And a very wacky way is like, "How can I run my second half of my marathon faster than the first half?"

一种非常古怪的方式是，“我如何才能在马拉松的后半程跑得比前半程快？”

Lenny: Today my guest is Ray Cao.

莱尼：今天我的客人是曹雷。

Ray is the global Head of Monetization Product Strategy & Operations at the Global at TikTok where he has been for over four years.

Ray 是 TikTok 全球货币化产品战略与运营全球主管，已任职四年多。

Prior to TikTok, Ray spent six years at Google helping scale Google shopping globally.

在加入 TikTok 之前，Ray 在 Google 工作了六年，帮助扩大 Google 购物的全球规模。

Lenny: TikTok is interesting for two big reasons.

Lenny：TikTok 之所以有趣有两个重要原因。

One, it's one of the most successful businesses in history, last valued at over $80 billion.

第一，它是历史上最成功的企业之一，最新估值超过 800 亿美元。

And its parent company is the most valuable private company in the world, last valued at over $200 billion.

其母公司是世界上最有价值的私营公司，最新估值超过 2000 亿美元。

Lenny: Two, TikTok is quickly becoming one of the biggest advertising platforms alongside Meta and Google, and generated nearly $10 billion in advertising revenue just a couple of years ago.

Lenny：第二，TikTok 正迅速成为与 Meta 和 Google 齐名的最大广告平台之一，仅几年前就创造了近 100 亿美元的广告收入。

So for both these reasons, TikTok is a really interesting business and team to learn from.

因此，出于这两个原因，TikTok 是一个非常值得学习的有趣企业和团队。

And I've seen very few podcasts and even media get a peek inside how TikTok operates.

我很少看到播客甚至媒体了解 TikTok 的运作方式。

Lenny: In our conversation, we discuss TikTok's culture, their core principles and values, how they hire, how they move so fast, their emphasis on working hard, how they do OKRs and planning.

Lenny：在我们的谈话中，我们讨论了 TikTok 的文化、他们的核心原则和价值观、他们如何招聘、他们如何快速行动、他们对努力工作的重视、他们如何制定 OKR 和规划。

We also get into how to succeed on TikTok's ad network, why you want to be testing at least 10 videos a week, how it's different from running ads on Instagram, how to make content that does well on TikTok, and so much more.

我们还探讨了如何在 TikTok 的广告网络上取得成功、为什么要每周测试至少 10 个视频、它与在 Instagram 上投放广告有何不同、如何制作在 TikTok 上表现良好的内容等等。

This episode has a lot of interesting lessons and insights.

这一集有很多有趣的教训和见解。

Obviously TikTok is at the center of a lot of debate globally.

显然，TikTok 是全球众多争论的焦点。

Some people love it, some people hate it.

有些人喜欢它，有些人讨厌它。

But no matter your opinion of TikTok, there's a lot that we can learn from their success.

但无论你对 TikTok 有何看法，我们都可以从他们的成功中学到很多东西。

Lenny: If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow the podcast on your favorite podcasting app or YouTube.

Lenny：如果您喜欢这个播客，请不要忘记在您最喜欢的播客应用程序或 YouTube 上订阅并关注该播客。

It's the best way to avoid missing future episodes and it helps the podcast tremendously.

这是避免错过未来剧集的最佳方式，并且对播客有很大帮助。

With that, I bring you Ray Cao after a short word from our sponsors.

在我们的赞助商简短发言后，我为您带来了 Ray Cao。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by WorkOS.

Lenny：本集由 WorkOS 为您带来。

If you're building a SaaS app, at some point your customers will start asking for enterprise features like SAML authentication and SCIM provisioning.

如果您正在构建 SaaS 应用程序，那么您的客户有时会开始要求提供 SAML 身份验证和 SCIM 配置等企业功能。

That's where WorkOS comes in, making it fast and painless to add enterprise features to your app.

这就是 WorkOS 的用武之地，它可以快速、轻松地将企业功能添加到您的应用程序中。

Their APIs are easy to understand, so that you can ship quickly and get back to building other features.

他们的 API 易于理解，因此您可以快速交付并继续构建其他功能。

And 100s of other companies are already powered by WorkOS, including ones you probably know like Vercel, Webflow and Loom.

数百家其他公司已经由 WorkOS 提供支持，其中包括您可能知道的 Vercel、Webflow 和 Loom。

Lenny: WorkOS also recently launched AuthKit, a complete authentication and user management service.

Lenny：WorkOS 最近还推出了 AuthKit，这是一个完整的身份验证和用户管理服务。

It's essentially a modern alternative to Auth0, but with better pricing and more flexible APIs.

它本质上是 Auth0 的现代替代品，但具有更好的定价和更灵活的 API。

AuthKit's design is stunning out of the box and you can also fully customize it to fit your app's brand.

AuthKit 的设计令人惊叹，开箱即用，您还可以完全自定义它以适合您的应用程序品牌。

It's an effortless experience from your first user all the way to your largest enterprise customer.

从您的第一个用户一直到您最大的企业客户，这都是一种轻松的体验。

Best of all, AuthKit is free for any developer up to 1 million users.

最重要的是，AuthKit 对任何拥有 100 万用户的开发人员都是免费的。

Check it out at workos.com/lenny to learn more.

请访问 workos.com/lenny 以了解更多信息。

That's workos.com/lenny.

那是workos.com/lenny。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Eppo.

Lenny：这一集是 Eppo 为您带来的。

Eppo is a next generation A/B testing and feature management platform built by alums of Airbnb and Snowflake for modern growth teams.

Eppo 是由 Airbnb 和 Snowflake 的校友为现代增长团队构建的下一代 A/B 测试和功能管理平台。

Companies like Twitch, Miro, ClickUp and DraftKings rely on Eppo to power their experiments.

Twitch、Miro、ClickUp 和 DraftKings 等公司依靠 Eppo 来支持他们的实验。

Experimentation is increasingly essential for driving growth and for understanding the performance of new features.

实验对于推动增长和了解新功能的性能越来越重要。

And Eppo helps you increase experimentation velocity while unlocking rigorous deep analysis in a way that no other commercial tool does.

Eppo 可以帮助您提高实验速度，同时以其他商业工具无法做到的方式解锁严格的深度分析。

Lenny: When I was at Airbnb, one of the things that I loved most was our experimentation platform where I could set up experiments easily, troubleshoot issues, and analyze performance all on my own.

Lenny：当我在 Airbnb 时，我最喜欢的事情之一就是我们的实验平台，在这里我可以轻松地设置实验、解决问题并自行分析性能。

Eppo does all that and more, with advanced statistical methods that can help you shave weeks off experiment time and accessible UI for diving deeper into performance, and out-of-the-box reporting that helps you avoid annoying prolonged analytic cycles.

Eppo 做到了这一切，甚至更多，先进的统计方法可以帮助您缩短数周的实验时间，可访问的 UI 可以更深入地了解性能，开箱即用的报告可以帮助您避免烦人的长时间分析周期。

Eppo also makes it easy for you to share experiment insights with your team, sparking new ideas for the A/B testing flywheel.

Eppo 还使您可以轻松地与您的团队分享实验见解，激发 A/B 测试飞轮的新想法。

Eppo powers experimentation across every use case, including product, growth, machine learning, monetization and email marketing.

Eppo 为每个用例提供实验支持，包括产品、增长、机器学习、货币化和电子邮件营销。

Check out Eppo at getEppo.com/lenny and 10X your experiment velocity.

请访问 getEppo.com/lenny 查看 Eppo，将您的实验速度提高 10 倍。

That's getEppo.com/lenny.

那是 getEppo.com/lenny。

Lenny: Ray, thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast.

莱尼：雷，非常感谢你来到这里，欢迎来到播客。

Ray Cao: Thank you Lenny for having me.

曹雷：谢谢Lenny邀请我。

It's a pleasure.

我的荣幸。

Lenny: It's my pleasure.

莱尼：这是我的荣幸。

I am really excited to have you here because it feels like we rarely get a peek into what it's like to work at TikTok, how TikTok builds product and operates, also how to be successful in TikTok as a business, as an advertiser.

我真的很高兴你们能来到这里，因为感觉我们很少了解在 TikTok 工作的情况，TikTok 如何构建产品和运营，以及如何在 TikTok 作为一项业务、作为一个广告商取得成功。

So I have all these kinds of questions for you, and so I'm really happy to be chatting.

我有各种各样的问题要问你，所以我很高兴能和你聊天。

I wanted to start with a little bit about your time before TikTok, which was at Google and comparing that to TikTok.

我想先谈谈你在 TikTok 之前的经历，当时你在 Google，并将其与 TikTok 进行比较。

So, you're at Google for six years, I believe.

我相信您在 Google 工作了六年。

Now you're at TikTok.

现在你在 TikTok。

I'm curious on what stood out to you about the cultural differences between how Google operates and TikTok operates.

我很好奇，谷歌的运营方式和 TikTok 的运营方式之间的文化差异对您来说有何突出之处。

Ray Cao: Three major things, I would say.

曹睿：我想说三件大事。

Number one is really how these two company thinking about innovation.

第一个是这两家公司如何思考创新。

So, I think Google has a very strong philosophy of we're engineering lab and that there's a lot of technology-driven, and a lot of pieces.

所以，我认为谷歌有一个非常强烈的理念，即我们是工程实验室，有很多技术驱动的东西。

They are not necessarily always trying to, I would say, cope with the market even, right?

我想说，他们不一定总是试图应对市场，对吗？

However, I think at the TikTok, I think besides the technology part, we do have a very keen, I would say, appetite to really understand what the markets really want and also how can we really service our clients in a better way and the clients here is not necessarily only for advertisers including our user and also creator altogether.

然而，我认为在 TikTok，我认为除了技术部分之外，我们确实有非常强烈的兴趣，我想说，真正了解市场真正想要什么，以及我们如何才能真正以更好的方式为我们的客户服务，这里的客户不一定只是广告商，包括我们的用户和创作者。

So that's one of the things I think it's very different in terms of TikTok way of work.

所以这是我认为 TikTok 工作方式非常不同的事情之一。

It's very customer-centric in a way, and again, the customer here is not necessarily only for the business partner but also for our regular user and creators on the platform.

在某种程度上，它非常以客户为中心，同样，这里的客户不一定只是业务合作伙伴，还包括我们平台上的普通用户和创作者。

Ray Cao: And the second one is really thinking about how we take approach on product development.

曹睿：第二个是真正思考我们如何采取产品开发方法。

So a lot of times that we take a very rigid approach in terms of product development and oftentimes you see us that experimenting a lot of different things all the same time.

因此，很多时候我们在产品开发方面采取非常严格的方法，并且经常会看到我们同时尝试很多不同的东西。

And also we do have a lot of engineering and project in the backend to really understand how can we optimize better for the platform.

而且我们在后端确实有很多工程和项目来真正了解如何更好地优化平台。

So a lot of time, these are the things that I think TikTok is doing really, really well.

所以很多时候，我认为 TikTok 在这些方面做得非常非常好。

Ray Cao: The last piece I have to say is the approach for global prioritization.

曹睿：最后我要说的是全局优先级的处理方法。

A lot of times that you see a US-born company go global and oftentimes still they are really rooted with the US market and there's nothing wrong with it to be honest, because this is the biggest market for them as I would say for East-born company.

很多时候，你看到一家美国出生的公司走向全球，但很多时候他们仍然真正扎根于美国市场，说实话，这没有什么问题，因为正如我对东方出生的公司所说，这是他们最大的市场。

I think a lot of times that we can take approach with truly how do we think about globalization and for example, we launched a lot of product not necessarily first in North America.

我认为很多时候我们可以真正了解我们如何看待全球化，例如，我们推出了很多产品，不一定首先在北美。

We launched it in South Asia for example, for our shopping, really very big initiative internally for shopping and we launched our really creator fund here in North America.

例如，我们在南亚推出了它，用于我们的购物，这是一个非常大的内部购物计划，我们在北美推出了我们真正的创造者基金。

We launched our gaming approach, really serviced our EUI gaming advertisers.

我们推出了我们的游戏方法，真正为我们的 EUI 游戏广告商提供服务。

Really, really strong over there.

那里真的真的很强。

So there are a lot of different approach in terms of how do we prioritize our go-to-market and also product development.

因此，在如何确定上市和产品开发的优先顺序方面，有很多不同的方法。

So that's the part I feel like we're very unique in the market or unique to some of that was the tech company born in the US.

因此，我觉得我们在市场上非常独特，或者对于其中一些诞生于美国的科技公司来说是独一无二的。

Lenny: It reminds me there's this piece by this smart guy, Eugene Wei who wrote a few things about TikTok over the years and just why it's been so successful and one of his really big points is that TikTok can work really well in other markets 'cause it's basically...

莱尼：这让我想起了这个聪明人尤金·魏（Eugene Wei）写的这篇文章，多年来他写了一些关于 TikTok 的文章，以及为什么它如此成功，他真正重要的观点之一是 TikTok 可以在其他市场运作得很好，因为它基本上......

you don't need to know a ton about the market because it's this algorithm that figures out what people in each market want.

您不需要对市场有太多了解，因为正是这种算法可以找出每个市场中人们的需求。

Is there anything along those lines you've seen that just has been really fundamental to it working so well in many different markets?

您是否发现有什么东西是它在许多不同市场中运作良好的真正基础？

Ray Cao: The algorithm is definitely helping because it is basically the machine is doing a lot of heavy lifting.

Ray Cao：算法肯定有帮助，因为基本上机器正在做很多繁重的工作。

That's actually I think across the board on a technology company today.

这实际上是我对当今一家科技公司的全面看法。

The difference is actually how much you are willing to take the heavy lifting over there in the market.

区别实际上在于你愿意在多大程度上承担市场上的重担。

By that I mean really sending your troops into the market, hiring your local talent, understanding the culture and really understanding the behavior from those users.

我的意思是真正派遣您的部队进入市场，雇用当地人才，了解文化并真正了解这些用户的行为。

I understand the machine can do things, but also at the same time that we need to actually get local talent to fine tune the machine.

我知道机器可以做一些事情，但同时我们也需要真正让本地人才来微调机器。

So there are a lot of conversations about how I would say technology is able to change our life, but I do think that at the end of the day, I do believe technology is a tool.

因此，有很多关于我如何说技术能够改变我们的生活的讨论，但我确实认为归根结底，我确实相信技术是一种工具。

Ray Cao: So if we do have a ambition to go global, you have to do one more thing is actually take your step into global.

曹睿：所以如果我们确实有全球化的雄心，那么你还必须做一件事，就是真正迈出全球化的一步。

Rather than having the machine do the heavy lifting, you have to really understand in local culture.

您必须真正了解当地文化，而不是让机器承担繁重的工作。

I had a fun background for my first job is to really doing go-to market research in the Southeast Asia area.

我的第一份工作有一个有趣的背景，那就是在东南亚地区进行真正的市场研究。

I think there was only one thing opened my eyes after a year and a half in this career path is different market have totally different, I would say, culture and these market behaviors are actually coming out of this culture.

我认为，在这条职业道路上一年半后，只有一件事让我睁开眼睛：不同的市场有完全不同的文化，而这些市场行为实际上来自于这种文化。

One of the fun example I always been using was I was doing market research for one of the suppliers for toner and also these ink cartridges for Thailand as a go-to market research.

我一直使用的一个有趣的例子是，我正在为一家碳粉供应商以及泰国的这些墨盒进行市场调查，作为一项市场调查。

One of the things is always concern to my, at that point, the client was they cannot figure out why their premium product cannot sell in Thailand and then we just figure out because the quality of their printing machine and also their ink cartridges are premium and the quality of the paper and everything is very good.

我一直关心的一件事是，当时的客户是他们不明白为什么他们的优质产品不能在泰国销售，然后我们才弄清楚，因为他们的打印机和墨盒的质量都是优质的，纸张的质量和一切都非常好。

Ray Cao: But when you actually do talk to those consumers in those market, the answer is very eye-opening.

曹睿：但是当你真正与这些市场的消费者交谈时，答案是非常令人大开眼界的。

They literally told me at that time is I don't care.

他们当时确实告诉我，我不在乎。

I don't care if your ink cartridges or your printer is at the premium quality, maybe the printer I can use, but I can use compatible ink cartridges or toner for that because my consumer won't care about your printing quality or the majority of my consumer won't care.

我不在乎你的墨盒或打印机是否具有优质质量，也许我可以使用打印机，但我可以使用兼容的墨盒或碳粉，因为我的消费者不会关心你的打印质量，或者我的大多数消费者不会关心。

So in that case you should not necessarily worried about if you are a premium product, it's actually more about how durable, how reliable you're able to print things and people can read.

因此，在这种情况下，您不必担心您是否是优质产品，实际上更多的是您能够打印内容以及人们可以阅读的内容的耐用性和可靠性。

Ray Cao: So I think these are the insights I think a lot of times it will be neglected from some of clients or the manufacturers or even the owner of the business because they think that we want to serve this segmentation, but, however, this segmentation is that big in this area.

Ray Cao：所以我认为这些是我认为很多时候会被一些客户、制造商甚至企业所有者忽视的见解，因为他们认为我们想要服务于这个细分市场，但是，然而，这个细分市场在这个领域是如此之大。

So that's reason why the culture is really the key part from the market.

这就是为什么文化确实是市场的关键部分。

If you don't understand the culture, you won't be able to understand the behavior over there.

如果你不了解当地的文化，你就无法理解那里的行为。

It's more about that, I think, when we say about globalization or take the product go to market in a global scheme or even build it apart, you have to get your hands dirty and to really understand the local culture so that you can understand local behavior.

我认为，更重要的是，当我们谈论全球化或将产品推向全球计划的市场，甚至将其分开建造时，你必须亲自动手并真正了解当地文化，这样你才能了解当地的行为。

Lenny: I love that advice, the way you described it, which I love also is that you kind of have to fine-tune the algorithm and the product to work in different cultures.

莱尼：我喜欢这个建议，你描述的方式，我也喜欢的是你必须微调算法和产品以适应不同的文化。

Is there an example of how that was done with TikTok, like a tweak that had to be made or some kind of fine-tuning that happened for it to work in a different market?

有没有一个例子可以说明 TikTok 是如何做到这一点的，比如必须进行调整或进行某种微调才能使其在不同的市场上发挥作用？

Ray Cao: Yeah.

曹睿：是的。

I think we did a lot of fine-tuning on our user product side to really think about content.

我认为我们在用户产品方面做了很多微调，以真正考虑内容。

So that's the number one thing going to be super different coming from each of the market and also from each of the culture.

因此，这是来自每个市场和每个文化的第一件事。

For example in Japan, how do you actually get more content that relevant for the culture?

例如在日本，如何才能真正获得更多与文化相关的内容？

A lot of people may think, okay, are you guys only doing dancing or doing singing for Japan?

很多人可能会想，好吧，你们只是为日本跳舞还是唱歌？

The answer is not.

答案是否定的。

It is actually more food on the TikTok side, like how do you actually introducing new food restaurant or new recipes and also sometimes that you're introducing a new technology.

实际上，TikTok 方面更多的是食物，比如你如何实际引入新的美食餐厅或新食谱，有时还引入新技术。

I would say 3C like consumer electronics product over there.

我想说的是3C，比如消费电子产品。

So these are the content get really popular sometimes in Southeast Asia or even Japan area and versus in the US as everybody knows that we're starting from really lip-syncing at a very early stage but now really we're expanding to shopping behaviors and also a lot of people using us as a main platform to acquire new discovery for the product.

因此，这些内容有时在东南亚甚至日本地区非常受欢迎，而在美国，众所周知，我们在很早的阶段是从真正的口型同步开始的，但现在我们实际上正在扩展到购物行为，而且很多人使用我们作为获得产品新发现的主要平台。

Ray Cao: So these are the things I think different market definitely deserves and demand different kind of treatment and if you are able to do this a lot, you're able to find success over there.

Ray Cao：所以这些是我认为不同的市场绝对值得做的事情，并且需要不同的待遇，如果你能够经常这样做，你就能在那里找到成功。

Lenny: That's really interesting because you could think it's just this algorithm that figures everything out for you, but I think what you're pointing out is you have to seed it with the right sorts of use cases that that culture is most excited about.

Lenny：这真的很有趣，因为你可能会认为正是这个算法为你解决了一切问题，但我认为你指出的是你必须用该文化最感兴趣的正确类型的用例来播种它。

Ray Cao: Another good example will be creative, so it's a very good example how human can work with technology together.

Ray Cao：另一个很好的例子是创造性的，所以这是一个很好的例子，人类如何与技术一起工作。

We have a ton of creatives and we have a ton of content so, of course, we use machine to label those content use metadata to analyze those content.

我们有大量的创意，我们有大量的内容，所以，当然，我们使用机器来标记这些内容，使用元数据来分析这些内容。

However, a lot of times you can find that when we're really thinking about how creative can help advertisers?

然而，很多时候你会发现，当我们真正思考创意如何帮助广告商时？

Humans actually make a more interesting or more, I would say, influencing decisions over there.

我想说，人类实际上会做出更有趣的决定，或者说，影响更大的决定。

For some of the verticals we can say that, "Oh, you know what, maybe we can try a coupon image with a new product like a sticker on the top?" This maybe actually work better compared to some of the price promotion even.

对于某些垂直行业，我们可以说，“哦，你知道吗，也许我们可以尝试使用新产品的优惠券图像，例如顶部的贴纸？”与某些降价促销相比，这实际上可能效果更好。

So a lot of things really depends on how do you actually interpreting the numbers and interpreting the data points but also at the same time your business acumen is going to be very important here to make a judgmental call for some of the situation like that.

因此，很多事情实际上取决于您如何实际解释数字和数据点，但同时您的商业头脑对于对此类情况做出判断性的要求也非常重要。

I think we're still rely a lot on both machine and also our own experts to analyzing those trends and give it the recommendations.

我认为我们仍然非常依赖这两台机器以及我们自己的专家来分析这些趋势并给出建议。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

Okay, so there's a few threads I'm going to follow later.

好的，我稍后会关注一些主题。

You talked about the product development process, so I'm going to want to spend time there, also about how to be successful in TikTok both as a creator also as a business, I'm excited to hear your advice there.

你谈到了产品开发过程，所以我想花时间在那里，也谈到如何在 TikTok 上取得成功，无论是作为创作者还是作为一个企业，我很高兴在那里听到你的建议。

But I want to spend a little more time first on just what it's like to work within TikTok and the culture of TikTok.

但我想首先花更多的时间来了解一下在 TikTok 中工作的感受以及 TikTok 的文化。

What are some core principles or values or just how TikTok operates if you had to identify, here's the ways that we all think about what we want to do and the most important to your day-to-day work, what words and concepts come to mind?

一些核心原则或价值观是什么，或者 TikTok 的运作方式是什么？如果您必须确定，以下是我们思考我们想要做什么以及对您的日常工作最重要的事情的方式，您会想到哪些词语和概念？

Ray Cao: The number one thing resonating really, really well with me is context, no control.

曹睿：最能引起我共鸣的是背景，没有控制。

Oftentimes when we are looking around companies different sizes, we're looking at how to collaborate.

通常，当我们考察不同规模的公司时，我们会考虑如何协作。

Oftentimes we see the behavior that a lot of people just working on a smaller piece based off their job description.

我们经常看到这样的行为：很多人只是根据他们的工作描述来完成较小的工作。

So hey, you're working on go-to-market and you're working on data analytics, and you're working on this book of business and commerce, and you're working on auto industry for example.

所以，嘿，你正在研究进入市场，你正在研究数据分析，你正在研究这本商业和商业书籍，例如你正在研究汽车行业。

A lot of times that these human-made silos is actually slowing things down because humans are not, or our talent, they're not supposed to be categorized into different basket.

很多时候，这些人造的孤岛实际上会减慢速度，因为人类或我们的人才不应该被分类到不同的篮子中。

They may have their own majority responsibility for sure, but we don't want to cap them into this kind of a box we created.

他们当然可能负有自己的多数责任，但我们不想将他们限制在我们创建的这种盒子里。

That's really why we're always encouraging people to think out of the box and think more and think themselves as a business owner rather than a piece of machine that keep the machine running.

这就是为什么我们总是鼓励人们跳出框框思考，多思考，将自己视为企业主，而不是保持机器运转的一台机器。

Ray Cao: Oftentimes that will say context, no control.

曹睿：很多时候会说上下文，无法控制。

That means you actually can go above and beyond to really think about your whole business problem as your own problem and your piece is maybe one part of it to solve the puzzle, but how do you actually solve the puzzle by connecting all the dots together, we're encouraging all the people to think like that way and by that I think we kind of mentally break out those walls.

这意味着你实际上可以超越真正将整个业务问题视为你自己的问题，而你的部分可能是解决难题的一部分，但是如何通过将所有点连接在一起来真正解决难题，我们鼓励所有人都这样思考，通过这种方式，我认为我们在精神上打破了这些墙壁。

So encouraging our team members to do a little bit more thinking is very important.

所以鼓励我们的团队成员多思考是非常重要的。

It's a little bit more thinking because the think part is very important.

需要更多的思考，因为思考部分非常重要。

Ray Cao: And then, now in terms of getting things into behavior or changes or getting to action, then you need to really collaborate with other teams because we don't want to necessarily creating, hey, you're on other people's working group now you're actually stepping on other people's toes now.

Ray Cao：然后，现在就将事情付诸行动或改变或采取行动而言，你需要真正与其他团队合作，因为我们不一定要创造，嘿，你现在在其他人的工作组中，你现在实际上是在踩别人的脚趾。

It is not the situation we're trying to encourage in, but where it's encouraging more is context, no control, think more about how you can change it and then we you do really actually take some actions, be active.

这不是我们试图鼓励的情况，但更鼓励的是环境，没有控制，更多地考虑如何改变它，然后我们真的采取一些行动，积极主动。

You reach out to who's supposed to be the owner of that and then have a discussion so then you you're able to connecting the dots altogether.

你联系谁应该是该东西的所有者，然后进行讨论，这样你就可以将这些点完全连接起来。

Ray Cao: So that's one thing I think it's very unique to our culture.

Ray Cao：我认为这是我们文化中非常独特的一件事。

I think it's very, very important for us to continue to grow at this speed because everybody have a, I would say, full visibility towards our full ownership to their mindset, how they can contribute.

我认为继续以这样的速度增长对我们来说非常非常重要，因为我想说，每个人都可以充分了解我们对他们的心态的完全所有权，以及他们如何做出贡献。

Lenny: And the key there is context implying you give them all the information they need and then let them just do things without giving them specific instructions, "Hey, I need you to hit this goal, work on this project, launch this thing.

莱尼：关键是上下文意味着你给他们提供他们需要的所有信息，然后让他们做事而不给他们具体的指示，“嘿，我需要你实现这个目标，致力于这个项目，启动这个东西。

Here is what we know, do the things you think are best, roughly." Right now, I know it's not just like anyone does anything, but I imagine that's kind of the implication there.

这是我们所知道的，粗略地做你认为最好的事情。”现在，我知道这不仅仅是任何人做任何事，但我想这就是其中的含义。

Ray Cao: Yeah, I think it's context, no control plus proactive thinking and reactive doing so you have to do more proactive thinking with these contexts.

曹睿：是的，我认为这是环境，没有控制加上主动思考和反应性行动，所以你必须在这些环境下进行更主动的思考。

Now reactive doing means that you need to collaborate, but when everybody has this kind of mindset, the collaboration should be very smooth because people have the context altogether.

现在被动做意味着你需要协作，但是当每个人都有这种心态时，协作应该会非常顺利，因为人们都有上下文。

The part that I see maybe some of the other company are facing challenges is actually there's too many IOs in between and you have people that are just protecting their own thing and working their own thing and then I'm delivering.

我认为其他一些公司可能面临的挑战实际上是中间有太多的 IO，而人们只是保护自己的事情并工作自己的事情，然后我就交付了。

But just like how I see some of my friends, their kids playing Legos, if you don't really see the full picture, you won't be able to make the Lego as a one thing at the end of the day.

但就像我看到我的一些朋友和他们的孩子在玩乐高积木一样，如果你没有真正看到全貌，那么最终你将无法将乐高积木做成一件东西。

You have to see the other pieces.

你必须看看其他作品。

So that's the part I think it's really powerful and reasoning really, really well when we're really thinking about product development and also product go-to-market.

所以这就是我认为当我们真正考虑产品开发和产品上市时它非常强大和推理非常非常好的部分。

So it's a pretty full cycle.

所以这是一个相当完整的周期。

People have to see this and then they have the context.

人们必须看到这一点，然后才能了解背景。

Lenny: I love this, and this has come up actually a few times recently when I was talking to the CTO of Netflix and also OpenAI.

Lenny：我喜欢这个，最近当我与 Netflix 和 OpenAI 的首席技术官交谈时，这个问题实际上已经出现了好几次。

They're very similar in culture where it's give people a lot of autonomy and freedom and not a lot of do this, do this, do this.

他们在文化上非常相似，都给人们很大的自主权和自由，但很少有人这样做，这样做，这样做。

The key there is to hire very high quality people and very high caliber people because if not, then things won't work out too great.

关键是要雇用非常高素质的人和非常高素质的人，因为如果没有，那么事情就不会太好。

Is there anything along those lines that you can share just like yeah, the kinds of people you end up hiring and how you hire people that can work well in that environment?

您是否可以分享一些类似的内容，例如您最终雇用的人员类型以及如何雇用能够在该环境中良好工作的人员？

Ray Cao: I agree with you.

曹睿：我同意你的看法。

So the caliber of these people is actually pretty important to support the structure I just talked about, and oftentimes I can see some people that with the quality of always curious.

所以这些人的素质对于支持我刚才讲的结构来说其实是相当重要的，而且我经常能看到一些人具有永远好奇的品质。

Curiosity is a very important quality when I'm actually talking to my interviewers because I want to see that they are naturally curious to new things.

当我实际与面试官交谈时，好奇心是一个非常重要的品质，因为我想看到他们对新事物天生好奇。

They want to learn more about the new things and don't really get stuck with their own things.

他们想要更多地了解新事物，而不是真正被自己的事物所困。

That's one thing.

这是一回事。

And the other thing is the discipline because like I said, it is actually a double-edged sword in this case.

另一件事是纪律，因为就像我说的，在这种情况下它实际上是一把双刃剑。

So it could potentially introducing some of the chaotic situation in a company because everybody is thinking everything.

因此，它可能会在公司中引入一些混乱的情况，因为每个人都在思考一切。

The discipline here is actually how you are really following the guidance on reactive doing, be always thinking about how to collaborating, and the discipline here and also the rigorous approach here is also going to be very important.

这里的纪律实际上是你如何真正遵循反应性做的指导，总是思考如何协作，这里的纪律和严格的方法也将非常重要。

Ray Cao: One of the good example that is the ability to prioritize because I don't believe one thing is everybody can do everything.

Ray Cao：一个很好的例子就是确定优先顺序的能力，因为我不相信每个人都能做所有事情。

You have to prioritize properly so that you're able to push the right agenda.

您必须正确确定优先顺序，以便能够推动正确的议程。

So I think that's more of the quality of the people we're looking for is...

所以我认为我们正在寻找的人的品质更多的是......

it is hard, don't get me wrong.

这很难，别误会我的意思。

It is really hard to say that we can find everyone like that, but we would love to believe that we can train our employees like that so that they're able to even do better in their longer-term career.

确实很难说我们能找到这样的每个人，但我们很乐意相信我们可以这样培训我们的员工，以便他们能够在长期职业生涯中做得更好。

Lenny: Essentially what you look for when you're hiring people is making sure they're always curious, they have high discipline, and that they prioritize well.

莱尼：本质上，当你招聘员工时，你要寻找的是确保他们总是充满好奇心，他们有严格的纪律，并且他们能够很好地分清轻重缓急。

Coming back to the cultural pieces of TikTok, so the main one you've shared so far is this idea of context, not control.

回到 TikTok 的文化部分，到目前为止您分享的主要内容是上下文概念，而不是控制概念。

What else are important cultural values of TikTok, of how TikTok operates that everyone always has in mind when they're building and new meetings, making decisions?

每个人在建立新会议、做出决策时始终牢记的 TikTok 运营方式以及 TikTok 运作方式还有哪些重要的文化价值观？

Ray Cao: Yeah, another internal thing that we always say is always day one, we want to make sure that we always have this mentality we are a startup.

Ray Cao：是的，我们总是说的另一件内部事情是永远是第一天，我们希望确保我们始终拥有这样的心态：我们是一家初创公司。

We are a young company.

我们是一家年轻的公司。

We're always hungry for growth.

我们总是渴望成长。

We don't want to fall into the trap that people may think, "Oh, you guys are very successful in the market and then you are not necessarily need to worry about your existence anymore." I think it is actually something we're trying to avoid.

我们不想陷入人们可能认为的陷阱，“哦，你们在市场上非常成功，那么你们就不一定需要再担心自己的存在了。”我认为这实际上是我们试图避免的事情。

We always want to make sure that in our team members always think like, "Okay, if this is actually a new day for you, I know what other things that you always want to keep in your mind you want to do." And also to keep that spirit is very important.

我们总是希望确保我们的团队成员总是这样想：“好吧，如果这对你来说实际上是新的一天，我知道你一直想记住的其他事情是你想做的。”保持这种精神也非常重要。

Ray Cao: A lot of times that I can see some of the mature company, they're not necessarily losing the edge of, I would say this competition or losing the edge of being innovative.

曹睿：很多时候我看到一些成熟的公司，他们不一定会失去竞争的优势，或者说他们会失去创新的优势。

I think it's more about some of the culture has been shifted because you have a lot of new employees that live in your culture.

我认为更多的是一些文化已经发生了转变，因为你有很多新员工生活在你的文化中。

So not necessarily it's not going to be like the old days that the co-founder is sitting among you, but I do think this company has a very interesting behavior.

所以不一定会像过去那样，联合创始人坐在你们中间，但我确实认为这家公司有一个非常有趣的行为。

I see there is I can talk to anyone at any time via our internal communication system.

我发现我可以随时通过我们的内部通信系统与任何人交谈。

I can ping Shuo right now.

我现在就可以评硕了。

I can ping the co-founder if I want to tomorrow.

如果我愿意，明天我可以联系联合创始人。

Ray Cao: We always keep this kind of mentality internal is that we're still a young company, we want to grow and you can feel free to talk to anyone.

曹睿：我们内部一直保持着这样的心态，我们还是一家年轻的公司，我们想要成长，你可以随意和任何人交谈。

We don't have a limitation for that as long as you have a good opinion, I would love to hear from you.

我们对此没有限制，只要您有好的意见，我很乐意听取您的意见。

Is that creating some of the, I would say chaotic situation?

我会说这是否造成了一些混乱的局面？

It might be, but I do think that this keeps the company very energetic.

可能是这样，但我确实认为这让公司充满活力。

People are willing to share, people are willing to engage.

人们愿意分享，人们愿意参与。

That's very important.

这非常重要。

Ray Cao: I want add one more thing.

曹睿：我还想补充一件事。

We just talked about, you asked me what is actually the uniqueness of TikTok versus the other company.

我们刚才谈到，你问我 TikTok 相对于其他公司的独特之处到底是什么。

It's very tied up to that is I have never seen a company, the engineering team and the product team and the sales team are so close.

与此密切相关的是，我从未见过一家公司的工程团队、产品团队和销售团队如此紧密。

That's definitely one of aha moments I had because if you're thinking about if your engineer does not really know what the market wants and if your PM doesn't really know what is actually the client's feedback, they won't be able to get a right product in the market.

这绝对是我顿悟的时刻之一，因为如果你在想，如果你的工程师并不真正了解市场想要什么，如果你的产品经理并不真正了解客户的反馈，他们将无法在市场上获得合适的产品。

They just won't be.

他们只是不会。

And they won't even tell a good go-to-market story to advertisers or even to our users because they just don't know what the end users are thinking.

他们甚至不会向广告商甚至我们的用户讲述一个好的上市故事，因为他们只是不知道最终用户在想什么。

Ray Cao: So I think it's a very secret sauce for us is that our sellers and our engineering team and our product team and also data scientist team, we're all collaborating really, really closely and that's very much, I would say a such big advantage for us compared to when a company becomes too big and nobody talks to each other.

Ray Cao：所以我认为对我们来说一个非常秘密的武器是我们的销售人员、我们的工程团队、我们的产品团队以及数据科学家团队，我们都在非常非常密切地合作，这对我们来说是一个很大的优势，与公司变得太大而没有人互相交谈相比。

So I do hope that it is the thing that we're going to continue reinforce along the years where we'll continue to grow the company.

因此，我确实希望这是我们在接下来的几年里继续加强的事情，让我们的公司继续发展。

Lenny: What does that actually look like?

莱尼：那实际上是什么样子的？

I imagine people hearing this are like, "Yeah, we're going to make sales and product and hinge very close." I imagine many people don't actually do this too well.

我想人们听到这句话会想，“是的，我们将使销售和产品变得非常紧密。”我想很多人实际上并没有做得很好。

How do you actually execute that?

你实际上是如何执行的？

Is it they report to the same leader, they sit next to each other or I don't know, zoom next to each other?

他们是向同一个领导报告，还是坐在一起，或者我不知道，是坐在一起？

What actually makes that work?

到底是什么让它发挥作用呢？

Ray Cao: Yeah, I think a couple of things.

曹睿：是的，我认为有几件事。

Number one is a structure.

第一是结构。

Everything has to go at a structure.

一切都必须有一个结构。

So we do have a meeting structure that we called it...

所以我们确实有一个会议结构，我们称之为......

it used to be by month and now it's actually a quarterly level.

以前是按月计算，现在实际上是按季度计算。

We get everybody together, engineering leader, product leader, and also not necessarily only the leader level.

我们把每个人聚集在一起，包括工程领导者、产品领导者，而且不一定只是领导者级别。

Some of the team members, we're joining the force together to have a big meeting.

一些团队成员，我们正在联合起来开一个大会议。

That meeting is 180 people-ish.

那次会议有 180 人左右。

It's crazy to have a meeting at that size, especially that there are different kind of functionality there.

召开如此规模的会议真是太疯狂了，尤其是那里有不同类型的功能。

But one thing we keep really well is actually we are using a reading format of meeting.

但我们保持得很好的一件事是，我们实际上正在使用会议的阅读格式。

So it's a doc reading.

所以这是一篇文档阅读。

We just read in comments and understanding the context again.

我们只是阅读评论并再次理解上下文。

It is the doc, bring everybody together, and then we discuss the things that we want to make a decision with or the things that we feel is a blocker or things that we need to celebrate.

这是医生，将每个人聚集在一起，然后我们讨论我们想要做出决定的事情，或者我们认为是阻碍的事情，或者我们需要庆祝的事情。

Ray Cao: So that meeting structure keep everybody together and consensus, again, not necessarily only for the top leaders.

曹睿：这样的会议结构可以让每个人都聚集在一起并达成共识，而不仅仅是高层领导人。

It's normal for the engineering leader and product leader and sales leader at the company level, they talk to each other, but we made that happen for their core team members.

对于公司层面的工程领导者、产品领导者和销售领导者来说，他们互相交谈是很正常的，但我们为他们的核心团队成员做到了这一点。

And the very beginning of my time here, that was literally getting to the IC level.

我刚来这里的时候，实际上已经达到了 IC 水平。

So it is pretty eye-opening for me to join that meeting first time because I was get so used to their level of different meetings at Google, but here it's like, okay, everybody read one documentation and then you just understand what are people talking about or thinking about.

因此，第一次参加那个会议对我来说非常令人大开眼界，因为我已经习惯了谷歌不同级别的会议，但在这里，好吧，每个人都阅读一份文档，然后你就明白人们在谈论或思考什么。

It is intentional.

这是故意的。

But I do think that that structure is a very big secret sauce, I would say, not necessarily we invented it, right?

但我确实认为这种结构是一个非常大的秘密武器，我想说，不一定是我们发明的，对吧？

We also learned from the other companies.

我们也向其他公司学习。

So it is actually one of the things that we actually deployed pretty well today here to keep that structure running.

因此，这实际上是我们今天在这里部署得很好的事情之一，以保持该结构的运行。

Ray Cao: And the other thing is really feed those, I would say, first-hand market information to our PMs and RDs.

Ray Cao：另一件事是向我们的产品经理和研发人员提供第一手的市场信息。

That means we took them out with us.

这意味着我们把他们带走了。

We're just inviting them together to join the force together to meet the clients and a lot of the company, if you want to meet APMs, if you want to meet the engineering leaders, it's literally once a year maybe, and also if you're investing a ton with some of the platforms.

我们只是邀请他们一起来会见客户和公司的很多人，如果你想会见 APM，如果你想会见工程领导者，实际上可能每年一次，而且如果你在某些平台上投入了大量资金的话。

For us, I think it's always on to junior PMs, senior PMs and engineering leaders.

对于我们来说，我认为这始终取决于初级产品经理、高级产品经理和工程领导者。

We invited them together to these immersion trips recorded to really get face time with our clients, to really feel the heat.

我们邀请他们一起参加这些沉浸式旅行，以便真正与我们的客户面对面交流，真正感受到热情。

They are actually really facing a challenge by using our own product.

他们实际上在使用我们自己的产品时确实面临着挑战。

Ray Cao: So that kind of, I would say, the aha moment is bringing a lot of, I would say, insights to them and also get them to feel the heat of the pains the sellers may feel.

Ray Cao：我想说，这种顿悟时刻给他们带来了很多见解，也让他们感受到了卖家可能感受到的痛苦。

So that worked really well, too.

所以这也非常有效。

I think oftentimes it is a battle.

我认为很多时候这是一场战斗。

It is not necessarily the general, you have to stay in the back, you sometimes have to go to the front, but we just make sure that the general go to the front quite often in our company to do that.

不一定是将军，你必须呆在后面，有时你必须去前面，但我们只是确保将军在我们公司经常去前面这样做。

Lenny: I love that concept of having them feel the heat.

莱尼：我喜欢让他们感受到热量的概念。

An interesting trend I've noticed is there's a lot of Amazon influence on the way you all operate.

我注意到的一个有趣的趋势是，亚马逊对大家的运营方式产生了很大的影响。

It's always day one idea.

这始终是第一天的想法。

There's the memo culture you just described.

这就是您刚才描述的备忘录文化。

Any idea where that comes from?

知道那是从哪里来的吗？

Is there like a senior Amazon person that came in and helped influence those sorts of things?

是否有一位亚马逊资深人士介入并帮助影响了此类事情？

Is it just hey, Amazon's killing in there?

是不是只是嘿，亚马逊在那里杀人？

I've noticed interestingly, Amazon has influenced the most companies in all of their ways of working, so it's not a surprise.

有趣的是，我注意到亚马逊影响了大多数公司的所有工作方式，所以这并不奇怪。

I'm just curious if there's anything else there that's interesting.

我只是好奇是否还有其他有趣的事情。

Ray Cao: I think we have the benefits to standing on the shoulder of all the giants.

曹睿：我认为我们有站在所有巨人的肩膀上的好处。

So we learned definitely always there when the culture that Amazon was always championing, I think we learned from them.

因此，当亚马逊一直倡导的文化时，我们肯定总是在那里学习，我认为我们向他们学习。

So this is something that we, I would say, always trying to listen and trying to learn from industry.

因此，我想说，我们一直在努力倾听并向行业学习。

The dark fashion is also learned from Amazon, so we kind of studied, oh, this is maybe one of the best practices we can employ here, how we deploy here.

黑暗时尚也是从亚马逊学到的，所以我们研究了，哦，这可能是我们可以在这里采用的最佳实践之一，我们如何在这里部署。

So we tried it, not even mentioned we have the OKR system, so it is actually a very good learning from our early stage from Google.

所以我们就尝试了一下，甚至没有提到我们有OKR系统，所以这实际上是我们早期向Google学习的一个非常好的经验。

So all these, I think definitely we do have some of the, I would say, benefits being the newcomer to the market and then learn a lot of the best practices coming from our industry peers and really deployed here hopefully successfully.

因此，我认为，作为市场新手，我们确实有一些好处，然后从我们的行业同行那里学习了很多最佳实践，并希望在这里成功部署。

Ray Cao: And some of the things that we just tweaked.

Ray Cao：以及我们刚刚调整的一些内容。

So for example our culture always day one is definitely very similar to Amazon, but the implementation of that could be different.

例如，我们的文化在第一天就与亚马逊非常相似，但其实施可能有所不同。

And also the context, no control piece is, I believe other companies may have the similar idea, but for us I think we just really need to implement it in a way that's going to be fitting to us.

还有背景，没有控制部分，我相信其他公司可能有类似的想法，但对我们来说，我认为我们真的需要以适合我们的方式实施它。

I happened to listen to your podcast with the Airbnb co-founder the other day.

前几天我碰巧和 Airbnb 联合创始人一起听了你的播客。

He also mentioned that how he break out the IOs.

他还提到了他如何分解 IO。

I think it is very similar approach among industry right now trying to really make sure the team is able to talk to each other because I think a quote from him, "If your PM doesn't know how to sell the product they're creating, you won't be able to do your job better." So this is literally how we're thinking about it, too, in a lot of way.

我认为现在行业中的做法非常相似，试图真正确保团队能够相互交谈，因为我认为他引用了一句话，“如果你的产品经理不知道如何销售他们正在创造的产品，你将无法更好地完成你的工作。”所以这实际上也是我们在很多方面思考这个问题的方式。

Lenny: I know that you all move very fast and I want to actually talk about that next.

莱尼：我知道你们进展得很快，接下来我想真正谈谈这个问题。

And with that it feels like your value should be, it's always the first half of the day instead of it's always day one.

有了这种感觉，你的价值应该是，它总是在一天的前半段，而不是总是在第一天。

It's always the morning of the first day.

总是第一天的早上。

Ray Cao: I think the value, if I put it in a very reactive way is, "How can I run my second half of my marathon faster than the first half?" So that's how I think about it and how do we really continue pushing for it.

曹睿：我认为，如果我以一种非常被动的方式表达的话，价值就是“我如何才能在马拉松的后半程跑得比前半程快？”这就是我的想法以及我们如何真正继续推动它。

Lenny: Wow, that sounds very hard and painful, but I like that metaphor.

莱尼：哇，这听起来非常困难和痛苦，但我喜欢这个比喻。

Okay, so let's talk about how you set up the product org to move as fast as you move.

好的，我们来谈谈如何设置产品组织，使其与您的移动速度一样快。

I think there's this idea of just running fast.

我认为有一个想法就是跑得快。

I don't know if that's a phrase you use, but just how is the product org set up, especially different from other teams that you've seen that allows it to move as quickly as you move and innovate as often as you all innovate?

我不知道这是否是您使用的一个短语，但是产品组织是如何设置的，特别是与您见过的其他团队不同，它允许它像您一样快速移动并像大家一样频繁地创新？

Ray Cao: Our product teams are setting, I would say, very importantly is global.

Ray Cao：我想说，我们的产品团队正在设定，非常重要的是全球化。

So we want to actually, like I said, the number one step is if we really want to do global business, we have to go global.

所以我们实际上想，就像我说的，第一步是如果我们真的想做全球业务，我们就必须走向全球。

So we set up teams really across the board in the global locations to really acquire global talent who knows the market and who knows the competition, too.

因此，我们在全球各地建立了真正全面的团队，以真正获得了解市场和竞争的全球人才。

So we're able to really getting the, let's say jumpstart, in the local market.

因此，我们能够真正在当地市场获得快速启动。

So for example, we have the majority of the engineer and also PMs currently located in the west coast of North America, so Los Angeles and also San Jose.

例如，我们的大多数工程师和产品经理目前都位于北美西海岸，例如洛杉矶和圣何塞。

These are the key hubs we have for our tech folks and also for North America wise we do have our majority of the go-to-market leads sitting in New York to get closer with our seller and also with our clients at the same time.

这些是我们为技术人员提供的关键中心，对于北美地区来说，我们确实将大部分进入市场的销售线索集中在纽约，以便同时与我们的卖家和客户建立更紧密的联系。

Ray Cao: Also, it is not necessarily only for North America.

曹睿：而且，不一定只针对北美。

Like I said, we heavily invested in Southeast Asia, so you can see that a lot of our engineering and also PM resources are deployed over there in Singapore to enable them to get closer to our clients over there as well.

就像我说的，我们在东南亚投入了大量资金，所以你可以看到我们的很多工程和 PM 资源都部署在新加坡，使他们能够更接近我们在那里的客户。

So really deploy your resources globally and also focusing on the key markets you want to penetrate.

因此，真正在全球范围内部署您的资源，并专注于您想要渗透的关键市场。

That's the commitment.

这就是承诺。

I think we're doing pretty good in this case.

我认为我们在这件事上做得很好。

And the second one is to really, again, I think the PMs and the product team of settings are oftentimes I would say because we're growing so fast, oftentimes we have to do a lot of minor team adjustment to catering for that.

第二个是，我认为 PM 和产品团队的设置经常是因为我们增长如此之快，通常我们必须做很多小的团队调整来适应这一点。

So it is very usual or common for teams to do a little bit of work on an annual basis or even on a two years or three year cycle.

因此，团队每年甚至以两年或三年为周期做一些工作是很常见或常见的。

The stability is important, don't get me wrong, but I do think that as a faster growing company, we need to consistently to reiterate not only the product but also our teams.

稳定性很重要，不要误会我的意思，但我确实认为作为一家发展较快的公司，我们不仅需要不断重申产品，还需要不断重申我们的团队。

Ray Cao: So how can we do reiteration on the PM side, on the go-to-market side, it is actually something that I have seen this company doing really, really well.

Ray Cao：那么我们如何在PM方面进行重申，在进入市场方面，这实际上是我看到这家公司做得非常非常好的事情。

Not necessarily we're bonding to one team structure.

我们不一定要隶属于一种团队结构。

We're actually bonding to the market need and we're bounding to the growth we're looking for.

我们实际上是在关注市场需求，并在关注我们所寻求的增长。

So we're not afraid to break our seams.

所以我们不怕打破我们的接缝。

And actually I literally break out my team last year to make sure that my team having more go-to-market mindset to actually embedded them with seller directly.

事实上，我去年对我的团队进行了彻底的重组，以确保我的团队有更多的市场思维，能够将他们直接与卖家联系起来。

So these are the things that very, I would say conventional to a size of this company, but I do think that's necessary and also that's a good mentality for the team to really run faster with this kind of a rigid approach.

所以，我想说的是，对于这家公司的规模来说，这些都是非常传统的事情，但我确实认为这是必要的，而且这也是团队通过这种严格的方法真正运行得更快的良好心态。

So yeah, these are the two things I think very unique to us, I think could also be continuously helping us in the next phase of the growth.

所以，是的，我认为这两件事对我们来说非常独特，我认为也可以在下一阶段的增长中持续帮助我们。

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Lenny：今天的节目是由 OneSchema 为您带来的，OneSchema 是 SaaS 的嵌入式 CSV 导入器。

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客户似乎总是希望在最混乱的 CSV 文件中向您提供他们的数据。

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对于许多产品来说，电子表格导入是一种非常糟糕的体验。

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Lenny: I know you mentioned earlier when we were chatting offline is when you were trying to build the go-to-market org for this stuff, you failed in some ways and there's some things you learned from that experience.

Lenny：我知道你之前提到过，当我们线下聊天时，你试图为这些东西建立上市组织，你在某些方面失败了，但你从这次经历中学到了一些东西。

What went wrong when you first tried to approach this?

当您第一次尝试解决这个问题时出了什么问题？

Ray Cao: Yeah, when I joined the company, there were only two people on the go-to-market side.

曹睿：是的，当我加入公司时，市场推广方面只有两个人。

Ray Cao: There are only two people and by that time the US and plus, I would say, Europe business together, we're having less than 80 people, but the business needs to grow and we need to hire really fast.

Ray Cao：只有两个人，到那时美国和欧洲业务加在一起，我们的员工不到 80 人，但业务需要增长，我们需要快速招聘。

The first mistake I made was...

我犯的第一个错误是...

By the way, the goal is to hiring 100 people in a six month to support the go-to-market.

顺便说一句，我们的目标是在六个月内雇用 100 名员工来支持上市工作。

That is the speed we're into.

这就是我们所追求的速度。

So that is early 2020 to middle of 2020.

那是2020年初到2020年中期。

So within six months I need to hire, I would say, 100 people to supporting the global go-to-market structure and build everything.

因此，我想说，在六个月内，我需要雇用 100 名员工来支持全球上市结构并构建一切。

Then the first mistake I made just at the right point because we're trying to grow too fast and sometimes as a hiring manager I have to compromise the standard we're trying to hire.

然后我在正确的时间点犯了第一个错误，因为我们试图增长得太快，有时作为招聘经理，我不得不妥协我们试图雇用的标准。

So that's the mistakes I think I made first and I think nobody should repeat that mistake is you need to always run for the quality rather than the quantity.

这就是我认为我首先犯的错误，我认为没有人应该重复这个错误，因为你需要始终追求质量而不是数量。

So it's a easy mistake.

所以这是一个很容易犯的错误。

You can fall into the trap because the business demands you to go faster.

你可能会落入陷阱，因为业务要求你走得更快。

If you don't have the manpower, you won't be able to.

如果你没有人力，你就做不到。

Ray Cao: But I would say, believe me when I say this, this is a pain, right, when you have the wrong people on the team, it's not necessarily going to make you move faster, it's going to actually slow you down.

Ray Cao：但我想说，相信我，当我这么说时，这是一种痛苦，对吧，当你的团队里有错误的人时，它不一定会让你行动得更快，它实际上会减慢你的速度。

So that's one of the biggest mistake I made for my first year when I created the team and not necessarily myself only.

所以这是我在创建团队的第一年犯下的最大错误之一，而不仅仅是我自己。

So also the managers reporting to me, they're facing the same pressure and then it's cascading down.

向我汇报的经理们也是如此，他们面临着同样的压力，然后压力呈阶梯式下降。

So it's definitely the mistakes we made at early stage.

所以这肯定是我们早期犯的错误。

Ray Cao: The second thing I can think about is really on the context, no control.

曹睿：我能想到的第二件事实际上是在上下文中，无法控制。

It is not necessarily I'm born into, to be honest, because I was trained really like, "Hey, this is your box, finish your work here and then you're good." But the reason why I value that really the attitude more today is literally I failed at the very early stage of my time here because I was trying to creating that kind of a very black and white discipline for my team, "You can do this, you cannot do that." But technically speaking, that's literally slowing things down because a lot of times you can see that, "Hey, we're delivering our go-to-market strategy and we're good." But literally what you don't know is your goal is not to deliver the go-to-market strategy.

老实说，这不一定是我生来的，因为我接受的训练就像，“嘿，这是你的盒子，在这里完成你的工作，然后你就很好了。”但我今天更看重这种态度的原因实际上是我在这里的早期阶段就失败了，因为我试图为我的团队创建一种非常黑白分明的纪律，“你可以这样做，你不能那样做。”但从技术上讲，这确实减慢了速度，因为很多时候你可以看到，“嘿，我们正在实施我们的上市策略，而且我们做得很好。”但实际上您不知道的是您的目标不是提供进入市场策略。

Your goal is to land your go-to-market strategy with sales together.

您的目标是与销售一起落实市场进入策略。

So if your job only is delivering, no, you're failed oftentimes because you're not really getting the market context, you're not even talking to your clients.

因此，如果你的工作只是交付，不，你经常会失败，因为你没有真正了解市场背景，你甚至没有与你的客户交谈。

So that was literally another mistake I think taught me how to really embrace the culture.

所以这实际上是另一个错误，我认为它教会了我如何真正拥抱这种文化。

Here is context, no control.

这是上下文，没有控制。

Ray Cao: And the third piece, I think, it's also a mistake, really a hard moment for me as well is, for the past couple of years now, I've been managing a such big global organization, oftentimes even not myself, my managers, they don't have time to go detail and to go talk to the clients, which is very scary because again, if you don't know, you don't hear what is happening in the market, you won't know the details in the market, you won't be able to take the right movement or take the right approach to go to market or even give the feedback to the engineering team.

曹雷：第三点，我认为，这也是一个错误，对我来说也确实是一个艰难的时刻，在过去的几年里，我一直在管理一个如此大的全球组织，很多时候甚至不是我自己，我的经理，他们没有时间去了解细节，去与客户交谈，这非常可怕，因为如果你不知道，你听不到市场上正在发生什么，你就不会知道市场的细节，你就无法采取正确的行动或采取正确的方法进入市场，甚至向工程团队提供反馈。

Ray Cao: So it's very important that the leader at any level needs to be situational.

曹睿：所以任何级别的领导者都需要根据情况来考虑，这一点非常重要。

You cannot always down to the wheat and you cannot really distance yourself from the reality.

你不能总是脚踏实地，也不能真正远离现实。

So you need to find the balance to really get engaged and also see yourself out there to getting, I would say, getting deeper into the problems, to identify the problems, and then you're able to perform even better.

因此，你需要找到平衡点，真正投入其中，同时也看到自己在那里，我想说的是，更深入地研究问题，找出问题，然后你才能表现得更好。

Because I don't believe one thing is you are the pure, I was the people manager.

因为我不相信一件事是你是纯洁的，我是人事经理。

You cannot do that because when you do that, you're very, very at the very, I would say, position to really thinking about your career because you're losing your competitive edge from the other, I would say equivalent talents in the market.

你不能这样做，因为当你这样做时，我想说，你非常非常处于真正思考你的职业生涯的位置，因为你正在失去与其他人（我想说的是市场上同等人才）的竞争优势。

Lenny: I love these stories.

莱尼：我喜欢这些故事。

I love stories of things not working out, so I appreciate you sharing these things.

我喜欢失败的故事，所以我很感谢你分享这些事情。

When someone doesn't work out at TikTok and they have a bad time and they get let go or they leave, what's the most common reason other than just they're not good enough?

当有人在 TikTok 没有锻炼并且过得很糟糕时，他们被解雇或离开，除了他们不够好之外，最常见的原因是什么？

Is there something that just doesn't stick with people that often leads to this is not the place for me?

是否有什么东西让人不喜欢，导致这里不适合我？

Ray Cao: Yeah, I would try to really thinking about this in a different way.

Ray Cao：是的，我会尝试以不同的方式思考这个问题。

I can tell how people can be more successful here.

我可以告诉人们如何在这里取得更大的成功。

So I definitely can see we're just talking about people being very curious and people are very, being nimble.

所以我绝对可以看到我们只是在谈论人们非常好奇并且人们非常灵活。

They can be more successful here.

他们在这里可以取得更大的成功。

At the same time, I think we have to admit one thing, join a start-up and join a rocket ship is a lifestyle.

同时，我认为我们必须承认一件事，加入初创企业、加入火箭飞船是一种生活方式。

It is not necessarily a job you are working on from 9 to 5.

这不一定是你朝九晚五的工作。

So it is a different lifestyle and it is not built for everyone.

所以这是一种不同的生活方式，并不适合每个人。

So if you are not able to adjust your mentality towards some of the work that we are here to do and it's maybe not right fit for you.

所以如果你不能调整自己的心态来对待我们要做的一些工作，它可能不适合你。

I'm not saying that that candidates is incapable.

我并不是说候选人没有能力。

I think they could be capable in the other scenario for sure, but is the right fit?

我认为他们在其他情况下肯定有能力，但合适吗？

I think that is, I would say very much towards the situation or the company status in the market.

我认为，我对市场上的情况或公司地位非常想说。

Ray Cao: I can see a lot of people that they left and become very successful, too.

曹睿：我看到很多人离开后也变得非常成功。

So it is not necessarily that, "Oh, we think you're not good and then you're going to be not good for every single other company." That's not the case.

因此，不一定是“哦，我们认为你不好，那么你对其他所有公司都不好”。事实并非如此。

Ray Cao: And one thing, and also this is my team culture I try to create is, I'm happy to say that when an employee reach out to me, say, "Hey Ray, I'm actually leaving the company," as long as they're telling me that they're going to a better place or a place that they can continue to grow their career, I'm happy for them because oftentimes my last question during my interview is, "What is actually your goal in the next three to five years?" And also I'd be really honest with them, say, "Hey, I don't think this is the job for you forever.

曹雷：还有一件事，也是我试图创造的团队文化，我很高兴地说，当员工向我伸出援手时，说，“嘿，雷，我实际上要离开公司”，只要他们告诉我，他们要去一个更好的地方，或者一个可以继续发展职业生涯的地方，我为他们感到高兴，因为我在面试中的最后一个问题常常是，“你在未来三到五年内的目标实际上是什么？”而且我也会很诚实地对他们说：“嘿，我不认为这永远是你的工作。

Nobody going to work in this forever.

没有人会永远从事这个行业。

If you can, great.

如果可以的话，太好了。

But what is really your North Star?" I think that's the part that I would love to co-partner with you because I always believe one thing is it is not only about achieving the company goal, it's also achieving really the career goal or your employee's career goal together.

但你真正的北极星是什么？”我认为这就是我愿意与您合作的部分，因为我始终相信一件事是，这不仅是为了实现公司目标，也是为了共同实现职业目标或您员工的职业目标。

Ray Cao: So I want to creating that culture here as well.

Ray Cao：所以我也想在这里创造这种文化。

So yeah, I think I'm doing so far so good.

是的，我认为到目前为止我做得很好。

Most of my team members when they actually are moving on internally or externally, I'm able to say that, "Okay, that's a good choice.

我的大多数团队成员当他们实际上在内部或外部晋升时，我可以说，“好吧，这是一个不错的选择。

If I were you, I may probably do the same thing." It is actually a very good culture, I think, I would love to champion across.

如果我是你，我可能也会做同样的事情。”我认为，这实际上是一种非常好的文化，我很乐意支持。

Lenny: On that first point, I'm also a huge advocate of just, "You'll be successful if you work very hard." I know there's a bit of a backlash at working along and thinking too much about work-life balance.

莱尼：关于第一点，我也是“如果你非常努力，你就会成功”的大力倡导者。我知道大家对于一起工作以及过多地考虑工作与生活的平衡会有些抵触。

And I feel like it's actually really important to work a lot and work long hours often to be successful, especially at a company that's going through this 'cause that's not going to last forever.

我觉得为了成功，大量工作、长时间工作实际上非常重要，尤其是在一家正在经历这种情况的公司，因为这种情况不会永远持续下去。

Ray Cao: I think at the end of the day it's a personal choice.

曹睿：我认为归根结底这是个人选择。

It's very much like a personal choice.

这很像个人选择。

If you are excited about this, if you want to grow together, yeah, this maybe is a good thing for you.

如果你对此感到兴奋，如果你想一起成长，是的，这对你来说可能是一件好事。

And also depends on the life stage.

而且还取决于人生阶段。

So some of the people they want to actually getting more family time, I think that's also the right choice, too.

因此，对于有些人来说，他们实际上希望获得更多的家庭时间，我认为这也是正确的选择。

But it just depends on your, I would say, your personal choice rather than if the company demands that.

但这仅取决于您，我想说，您的个人选择，而不是公司是否要求这样做。

I mean, I cannot force my team to working long hours.

我的意思是，我不能强迫我的团队长时间工作。

I don't want them to working long hours.

我不希望他们长时间工作。

I think it's more about if you are able to deliver, right?

我认为更重要的是你是否能够交付，对吗？

If it requires a bit, a longer time to contribute, I think it's okay, but you'll also get rewarded very well too.

如果需要一点、更长的时间来贡献，我认为没关系，但你也会得到很好的回报。

So what's get in, what's get out.

那么什么进来，什么出去。

So I think it's, again, I do believe that this is the quality and also the value we're evaluating here as well.

所以我认为，我确实相信这就是我们在这里评估的质量和价值。

Lenny: And even though it's hard in the moment, I find that those are the times you remember most and most fondly in your career, when you just go all in, "I'm going to work really hard and do the best possible job I can do." Assuming that doesn't last forever, those end up being the most impactful, helpful to your career.

莱尼：尽管现在很困难，但我发现那些是你职业生涯中最难忘、最深情的时刻，当你全力以赴时，“我会非常努力地工作，尽我所能做到最好。”假设这种情况不会永远持续下去，那么这些最终将成为对你的职业生涯最有影响力、最有帮助的。

Most proud moments when you're just like, "Look what I had accomplished." And so I'm on the same page.

最自豪的时刻是，你会说：“看看我取得了什么成就。”所以我也有同样的想法。

I want to talk about being successful on TikTok as a creator, as a business, as an advertiser.

我想谈谈作为创作者、企业和广告商如何在 TikTok 上取得成功。

But a couple more questions real quick on how TikTok operates.

但还有几个关于 TikTok 如何运作的问题。

You mentioned you do OKRs just briefly, is there anything that you've learned about being successful doing OKRs within TikTok?

您刚才简单地提到您执行 OKR，您是否学到了如何在 TikTok 内成功执行 OKR 的经验？

Maybe is there anything different that you all do versus how other companies think about OKRs?

也许你们的做法与其他公司对 OKR 的看法有什么不同？

Ray Cao: It is definitely a company alignment that we are using OKR as our basically the system to make sure that everybody is working towards the same goal.

Ray Cao：我们使用 OKR 作为我们的基本系统，以确保每个人都朝着同一个目标努力，这绝对是公司的一种调整。

I think definitely we have a lot of room to improve.

我认为我们肯定还有很大的改进空间。

So how often do you actually see your team able to go to OKR at the end of a quarter and also putting OKR really two weeks or one week before the beginning of a quarter?

那么，您实际上有多少次看到您的团队能够在季度末进行 OKR，并且在季度开始前两周或一周进行 OKR？

I have to say that shame on me.

我不得不说这对我来说是耻辱。

I sometimes delay it a little bit, but I think the goal is always there to using OKR system as our North Star to drive the behavior and also to align.

有时我会稍微推迟一下，但我认为目标始终是使用 OKR 系统作为我们的北极星来驱动行为并保持一致。

Again, it's very important to align on the OKRs because I can see a lot of times the OKRs are putting in, but they are very siloed and that is not really necessarily helpful for the company want achieving really high growth.

再说一遍，调整 OKR 非常重要，因为我可以看到很多时候 OKR 都在投入，但它们非常孤立，这对于希望实现真正高增长的公司来说并不一定有帮助。

So I think it's very important that we know we don't take OKR as a shell, but we take OKR as its core is cross-functional alignment, cross-functional goal silo.

所以我认为非常重要的是我们知道我们不以OKR为外壳，而是以OKR为核心，它是跨职能对齐、跨职能目标筒仓。

So these are the things we're still continuing improving.

所以这些是我们仍在继续改进的事情。

Lenny: Is the way that OKRs work at TikTok, is there an OKR per team and they all kind of trickle up to a company level OKR?

Lenny：OKR 在 TikTok 的运作方式是这样吗？每个团队都有一个 OKR，并且它们都会逐渐上升到公司级别的 OKR 吗？

Is it less structured that way and teams decide if they want to use OKRs or not?

这种方式的结构是否较差，团队决定是否要使用 OKR？

How does that roughly work?

大致是如何运作的？

Ray Cao: The structure is, basically the guidance is, using the key result to evaluating and then you put the steps in between.

Ray Cao：结构基本上是指导，使用关键结果进行评估，然后在中间添加步骤。

So that's how at least my team has been using this.

至少我的团队就是这样使用它的。

I think the things that we can improve is the input and output.

我认为我们可以改进的是输入和输出。

So the output is very clear, but what is actually the input sometimes is debatable, sometimes I have to say.

所以输出很清楚，但实际上输入是什么有时是有争议的，有时我不得不说。

And also oftentimes your output is other people's input.

而且很多时候你的输出就是其他人的输入。

Are you able to connect the dots over there, too?

你也能把那里的点联系起来吗？

Then that's actually the part that requires a lot of, I would say reinforcement alignment.

那么这实际上是需要大量的部分，我想说的是加固对齐。

Definitely we're getting better, don't get me wrong.

毫无疑问，我们正在变得更好，请不要误会我的意思。

We're totally not perfect, for sure.

当然，我们并不完美。

But I do see there is a lot of, I say momentum, to leveraging the system better.

但我确实看到，有很多动力可以更好地利用该系统。

If you know other companies doing this really, really good, please shoot them my way.

如果你知道其他公司在这方面做得非常非常好，请按照我的方式拍摄他们。

I would love to learn from them.

我很想向他们学习。

Lenny: One last question here.

莱尼：最后一个问题。

You do planning, you have OKRs.

你做计划，你就有 OKR。

Just briefly, how often do you all do planning?

简而言之，你们多久做一次计划？

Is there a yearly plan that you put together and then a quarterly detailed plan?

您是否制定了年度计划和季度详细计划？

Ray Cao: Yeah, we do have annual planning cycle, but I have to say that our annual planning cycle is the baseline.

曹睿：是的，我们确实有年度规划周期，但我不得不说，我们的年度规划周期是基线。

We often do a lot of iterations in the middle of the year and also on a quarterly basis that we're able to pivoting really nimbly to really catering to the things that we see in the market.

我们经常在年中以及每季度进行大量迭代，我们能够非常灵活地进行调整，以真正迎合我们在市场上看到的东西。

Some of the longer term strategy won't change, just like the platform we want to always creating, inspiring and also frictionless and immersive experiences for users.

一些长期战略不会改变，就像我们希望始终为用户创造鼓舞人心、无摩擦和身临其境的体验的平台一样。

This won't change, but anything into the core of how do we realizing that you're always a consistent experiment over there.

这不会改变，但任何核心问题都是我们如何意识到你总是在那里进行一致的实验。

I cannot speak for the user product side, but at least from advertising product side that this is always the approach we're taking.

我不能代表用户产品方面发言，但至少从广告产品方面来说，这始终是我们采取的方法。

And for the go-to-market part, that's also creating a very different behavior for us because oftentimes if we have a solid and kind of a static product roadmap, you can do go-to-market relatively easy, I would say, because everything is planned.

对于进入市场部分，这也为我们创造了一种非常不同的行为，因为通常，如果我们有一个可靠且静态的产品路线图，我想说，你可以相对容易地进入市场，因为一切都是计划好的。

But with a environment like that that basically make the go-to-market and also the product feedback loop much more short and faster.

但在这样的环境下，基本上可以使产品上市和产品反馈循环变得更短、更快。

Ray Cao: So there's a lot of, I would say, pressure or actually put it nicely, there was a lot of innovative things that on the go-to-market side.

Ray Cao：所以我想说，压力很大，或者实际上说得好一点，在进入市场方面有很多创新的东西。

Also on the sales side, the company or the teams need to actually do to make sure that we're able to catering for that.

同样在销售方面，公司或团队需要切实做到这一点，以确保我们能够满足这一要求。

But again, this is a teamwork rather than only one side of the work.

但同样，这是一项团队合作，而不仅仅是工作的一个方面。

So far so good, I would say.

我想说，到目前为止一切都很好。

A lot of things that we've been able to achieve within the past couple of years has been already proven that this approach has been working for us, but not necessarily they're always is perfect already, always room to improve, to make sure that we have more structural approach as well so that the market able to keep the pacing with us.

我们在过去几年中取得的很多成就已经证明这种方法对我们有效，但不一定总是完美的，总是有改进的空间，以确保我们也有更多的结构性方法，以便市场能够跟上我们的步伐。

We don't want to overwhelm our advertisers or our users either.

我们也不想让我们的广告商或用户不知所措。

So that's also the other part that we need to continue optimizing, too.

所以这也是我们需要继续优化的另一部分。

Lenny: Okay.

莱尼：好的。

Let's talk about a different topic which is being successful on TikTok.

我们来谈谈在 TikTok 上取得成功的另一个话题。

So the way I think about it in my head is, there's how to be successful is just a regular human creator person.

所以我在脑海中的想法是，作为一个普通的人类创造者，如何才能取得成功。

How to be successful as a business, trying to just create viral content and then being successful as an advertiser, which I know is where you spend a lot of time.

如何作为一个企业取得成功，尝试创造病毒式内容，然后作为一个广告商取得成功，我知道这是你花费大量时间的地方。

So let me just ask, is there a tip you could share for someone to be successful, say aka go viral on TikTok?

所以我想问一下，您是否可以分享一些成功的秘诀，比如在 TikTok 上走红？

I imagine your answer will be just produce something people love and want to share and like.

我想你的答案只是产生人们喜欢、想要分享和喜欢的东西。

But I guess is there anything that could be tactically useful when you're creating content in TikTok to help you go viral?

但我想，当你在 TikTok 中创建内容来帮助你病毒式传播时，有什么战术上有用的东西吗？

Ray Cao: I think if I know that I definitely will already become a very successful creator, I have to say.

曹睿：我想如果我知道的话我肯定已经成为一个非常成功的创作者了，我不得不说。

Our system is very much smarter than I am.

我们的系统比我聪明得多。

I cannot trick the system, but I have seen a couple of good cases.

我无法欺骗系统，但我见过一些很好的案例。

So number one thing is that you have to really be unfiltered.

所以第一件事是你必须真正不被过滤。

I mean, you don't really need to be perfect on this platform.

我的意思是，你真的不需要在这个平台上做到完美。

I mean that's the beauty of it.

我的意思是这就是它的美妙之处。

You can be yourself, you can really share the things that you like.

你可以做你自己，你可以真正分享你喜欢的东西。

And if you're really master at one thing that you're really, really good at and you want to showcase, this is the platform for you to shine because not necessarily that we are fully saturated and also all algorithm distributing the content in a very different way.

如果你真的精通一件你非常非常擅长的事情并且你想展示，那么这就是你大放异彩的平台，因为我们不一定完全饱和，而且所有算法都以非常不同的方式分发内容。

Some of the other platforms they are, I would say like a people-based or friend-based.

我想说的是，其他一些平台是基于人的或基于朋友的。

Ray Cao: I think for us it's purely based on actually you're creating something that everybody want to see.

Ray Cao：我认为对我们来说，这纯粹是基于你实际上正在创造每个人都想看到的东西。

So let's see if we can distribute it more.

那么让我们看看是否可以更多地分发它。

So I think continuously to bring new content to this platform and testing and finding your own competitive edge going to be very important as a successful creator.

因此，我认为，作为一名成功的创作者，不断为这个平台带来新内容并测试和寻找自己的竞争优势将非常重要。

And most of our creators have been doing that.

我们的大多数创作者一直在这样做。

And I can see some of our biggest TikTok stars, they're literally practicing this every single day.

我可以看到我们一些最大的 TikTok 明星，他们实际上每天都在练习这一点。

And I do think that creativity and that part of, I would say, getting the nuances is the key part that to be more successful on the T TikTok community.

我确实认为创造力以及我想说的了解细微差别的部分是在 T TikTok 社区取得更大成功的关键部分。

Ray Cao: And the second thing is it's including also for brands as well, because I consider brands as our creator as well.

Ray Cao：第二件事是它也包括品牌，因为我认为品牌也是我们的创造者。

They really need to embrace the culture and the community here to really listen and understand what are the user behaviors on the platform to understand what do they like to see.

他们确实需要拥抱这里的文化和社区，真正倾听和了解平台上的用户行为，以了解他们喜欢看到什么。

And also the messages or the presence could be very different from your other media channels, or as a creator, it could be very different from your other, I would say, platforms.

而且消息或存在可能与您的其他媒体渠道非常不同，或者作为创作者，它可能与您的其他平台非常不同。

Ray Cao: So that's the other thing that it's going to be challenging because for them to shift in the mindset.

Ray Cao：所以这是另一件具有挑战性的事情，因为对他们来说要转变心态。

But I do think that definitely was trial.

但我确实认为这绝对是审判。

Some of the, I would say, our early adopters has already been proven that when you do embrace the culture here, you're able to acquire a ton of different kind of a user or the audience to your channel and you can show a different side of yourself as well.

我想说，我们的一些早期采用者已经证明，当您真正拥抱这里的文化时，您就能够为您的频道吸引大量不同类型的用户或观众，并且您也可以展示自己不同的一面。

So yeah, I've been trying to do that.

是的，我一直在努力这样做。

I have not really finding my competitive edge I have to say, but I'll keep trying.

不得不说，我还没有真正找到自己的竞争优势，但我会继续努力。

Lenny: Is there an example you could share of someone that has done that really well, either be really authentic and also embrace the community of a business specifically that has done this really well and has taken off not as an advertiser?

莱尼：您是否可以分享一个在这方面做得非常好的例子，要么是非常真实的，要么是拥抱一个在这方面做得非常好的企业社区，并且不是作为广告商而成功的？

Ray Cao: There was one creator I remember called Sheba.

Ray Cao：我记得有一位创作者，叫Sheba。

She's a singer and she is able to caught my eyes because she was able to basically rap and also during some of the songs cover in a very different way because she's a minority and she was able to basically using her minority identity as actually everybody was thinking, "I'm supposed to be doing Bollywood music, but actually, you know what I'm not.

她是一名歌手，她能够引起我的注意，因为她基本上能够说唱，并且在一些歌曲翻唱中以一种非常不同的方式，因为她是少数族裔，她能够基本上利用她的少数族裔身份，因为实际上每个人都在想，“我应该做宝莱坞音乐，但实际上，你知道我不是。

I'm doing a lot of very just hip hop and also the music that people may think like I'm not good at."

我做了很多非常纯粹的嘻哈音乐，也做了人们可能认为我不擅长的音乐。”

Ray Cao: So it is pretty fun to watch that kind of a comparison or the contrast between a creator and also she's able to put a lot of original music on the platform to really inspire more people to do the same thing.

曹睿：所以观看创作者之间的这种比较或对比是非常有趣的，而且她能够在平台上放很多原创音乐，真正激励更多的人做同样的事情。

There's another music, I would say TikTok creator.

还有另一种音乐，我会说是 TikTok 的创造者。

So he was pretty big on the other platforms, but the total approach from him is he's basically changing the lyrics, make it very relatable as a personal life.

所以他在其他平台上相当大，但他的总体方法是他基本上改变了歌词，使其与个人生活非常相关。

Because for example, he can totally change the lyrics from a old Backstreet Boys song or Nsync song to make it related with his daily communication with his wife.

因为例如，他可以完全改变后街男孩老歌或 Nsync 歌曲的歌词，使其与他与妻子的日常交流相关。

Make it really relatable and fun.

让它真正具有相关性和乐趣。

So these are the things I think is very unique to us.

所以我认为这些对我们来说是非常独特的。

If you are able to test and find something new like that, you're able to find a new batch of audience and even go viral on the platform.

如果你能够测试并发现类似的新东西，你就能够找到一批新的受众，甚至在平台上走红。

Lenny: So then switching to the advertising network, a lot of listeners here are thinking about, I imagine, advertising on TikTok.

莱尼：那么接下来转向广告网络，我想这里的很多听众都在考虑在 TikTok 上做广告。

There's kind of classically been Facebook and Google are the two places to do run paid ads.

Facebook 和 Google 是传统上投放付费广告的两个地方。

Paid ads are a huge growth driver for tons of companies.

付费广告是众多公司的巨大增长动力。

It's one of the easiest you could say, or one of the most traditional way to grow.

这是最简单的成长方式之一，或者说是最传统的成长方式之一。

TikTok obviously is emerging and has already emerged as one of the newer advertising networks.

TikTok 显然正在兴起，并且已经成为较新的广告网络之一。

So there's a lot of people thinking about how do I succeed as an advertiser on TikTok.

所以有很多人在思考我如何作为 TikTok 上的广告商取得成功。

So what advice do you have for people?

那么您对人们有什么建议呢？

One, who's it best for?

一、最适合谁？

I imagine TikTok isn't the best place to advertise for every sort of business.

我认为 TikTok 并不是为各种企业做广告的最佳场所。

So what sort of businesses are best aligned to be successful on TikTok?

那么什么样的企业最适合在 TikTok 上取得成功呢？

And then just what advice can you share to do well as an advertiser on TikTok?

那么，作为 TikTok 上的广告商，您有什么建议可以分享呢？

Ray Cao: Yeah, I see a lot of really different type of advertisers already find their success on the platform.

Ray Cao：是的，我看到很多不同类型的广告商已经在这个平台上取得了成功。

One thing that they actually can do that is really due to a couple of things that they're doing.

他们实际上能做到的一件事实际上是由于他们正在做的几件事。

Number one is, like I said, they're embracing this platform.

第一是，就像我说的，他们正在拥抱这个平台。

They actually do a lot of things is TikTok first.

他们实际上做的很多事情都是TikTok第一。

I have a couple of advertisers.

我有几个广告商。

They have actually creating their own internal creative team just dedicated for TikTok.

他们实际上已经创建了自己的内部创意团队，专门负责 TikTok。

So they actually produce a ton of creative every single day to actually test and learn to understand the platform and understand the community they are engaging with.

因此，他们实际上每天都会产生大量创意来实际测试和学习了解该平台并了解他们所参与的社区。

So I would say leaning in is the first part.

所以我想说，倾斜是第一部分。

It's harder, but it is not that hard.

这比较难，但也不是那么难。

As long as you try it, you'll feel that every single day is getting easier.

只要你尝试一下，你就会感觉每一天都变得更加轻松。

And also we make a lot of tools to make things easier for them as well.

我们还制作了很多工具来让他们的事情变得更容易。

Like creative, we have also a lot of resources on the platform, the creative hub and also we have creative analytics to help you.

与创意一样，我们在平台、创意中心也拥有大量资源，并且我们还提供创意分析来帮助您。

So these are the things that we're able to basically help the advertiser to leaning in more.

因此，这些是我们基本上能够帮助广告商更多地关注的事情。

Ray Cao: The other angle to leaning in more is test and learn.

Ray Cao：更多学习的另一个角度是测试和学习。

A lot of times that people don't know how to really run ads on this platform.

很多时候，人们不知道如何在这个平台上真正投放广告。

Google is very much search, like search fronts.

谷歌在很大程度上是搜索，就像搜索前沿一样。

They are really leading on the intent graph.

他们在意图图上确实处于领先地位。

And Meta is really on the people graph they're making.

Meta 确实出现在他们制作的人员图表上。

I mean TikTok is the content graph.

我的意思是 TikTok 是内容图。

It's very different, I would say machine compared to the other two.

我想说的是，与其他两台机器相比，这是非常不同的。

And it requires different way to optimizing and to leveraging the tools we have.

它需要不同的方式来优化和利用我们拥有的工具。

So if you're applying the same logic from Meta or Google into TikTok, not necessarily you'll be able to see a great success, I have to say.

因此，我不得不说，如果你将 Meta 或 Google 的相同逻辑应用到 TikTok 中，你不一定能看到巨大的成功。

Ray Cao: So you have to really get to the detail and to learn how you're operating this platform at the very beginning.

Ray Cao：所以你必须真正了解细节并从一开始就了解如何操作这个平台。

Of course, like I said, we're trying to make things as simple as possible because we strongly believe that an advertiser's job is to taking care of their own business and our job is to service them.

当然，就像我说的，我们试图让事情尽可能简单，因为我们坚信广告商的工作是照顾他们自己的业务，而我们的工作是为他们提供服务。

So we definitely make things a bit easier and along the way, but still it's a little bit learning for advertisers to change their mindset when they engage with us the first time.

因此，我们肯定会让事情变得更容易，但对于广告商来说，在第一次与我们互动时改变他们的心态仍然需要一点学习。

And I can see that again, for example, last Q4, I can see a lot of advertisers taking this approach to really listen to us and understanding what is our best practices.

我可以再次看到这一点，例如，在上个第四季度，我可以看到很多广告商采用这种方法来真正倾听我们的声音并了解我们的最佳实践是什么。

They actually see a very successful Q4 on the platform.

他们实际上在该平台上看到了非常成功的第四季度。

So I do think that if you want to do more, just do more test and learn with us and to really understand the impact from TikTok.

所以我确实认为，如果你想做更多，就做更多的测试，和我们一起学习，真正了解 TikTok 的影响。

Lenny: Just to understand this point about versus Instagram, I think a lot of people probably run on them on both platforms and try to see which one's working better.

Lenny：为了理解 Instagram 与 Instagram 的区别，我想很多人可能会在这两个平台上运行它们，并尝试看看哪个效果更好。

Your point is the same content won't work as well on one versus the other.

您的观点是，相同的内容在一种情况下与另一种情况下效果并不一样。

So just so people understand what the main difference there is.

只是为了让人们了解主要区别是什么。

I know you talk about there's the friend graph versus TikTok just spreads it all over and anyone can see it.

我知道你谈到朋友图谱与 TikTok 的对比，只是将其传播到各处，任何人都可以看到它。

You don't have to be friends and it's really good at getting content out.

你们不必成为朋友，而且它非常适合发布内容。

So what is it that you would do differently if you're making an ad video for Instagram versus TikTok?

那么，如果您为 Instagram 和 TikTok 制作广告视频，您会采取哪些不同的做法呢？

Ray Cao: I think the TikTok video, it's more about the backend settings, right?

曹睿：我认为TikTok视频，更多的是后端设置，对吧？

So how often do you actually changing creatives?

那么您实际更换广告素材的频率是多少？

I think for us it is actually pretty...

我认为对于我们来说这实际上很漂亮......

you want to actually test more creatives on this platform and see which one is actually working.

您想在这个平台上实际测试更多创意，看看哪一个真正有效。

And then we also have really detailed guidance on how do you set up your campaign structure to make sure that you're able to be more successful on the platform.

然后，我们还提供了关于如何设置营销活动结构的非常详细的指导，以确保您能够在平台上取得更大的成功。

So these are, I would say, the basic hydrangeas we talked about.

我想说，这些就是我们谈论的基本绣球花。

You can see these guidance are very different from what Meta has today or even Google has today because we're just basically different platforms.

您可以看到这些指南与 Meta 现在甚至 Google 今天的指南非常不同，因为我们基本上是不同的平台。

And oftentimes you can also hear that we requires a bit more real time react on the platform due to some of the trends we have seen.

通常，您还可以听到，由于我们看到的一些趋势，我们需要在平台上进行更多实时反应。

Ray Cao: So that is the part I feel like if advertiser wants to engage more with really the sales team and they're able to provide more guidance to you and you're able to see more success there.

Ray Cao：所以这就是我的感觉，如果广告客户希望与真正的销售团队进行更多的接触，他们能够为你提供更多的指导，你就能在那里看到更多的成功。

But a lot of things will be counterintuitive I would say, because the intuitive you have learned is coming from the other platforms, but technically we're not.

但我想说，很多事情都是违反直觉的，因为你学到的直觉来自其他平台，但从技术上讲我们不是。

So a lot of things that, "Oh, this doesn't make sense to me, but why don't you try it?" And we make actually that really easy because we are sharing a lot of, I would say added credit to intensify incentivizing our advertisers to try it at the end of the day that hopefully they can see the result is proven itself.

所以很多事情，“哦，这对我来说没有意义，但你为什么不尝试一下呢？”事实上，我们让这变得非常容易，因为我们分享了很多，我想说的是额外的信用，以加强激励我们的广告商在一天结束时尝试它，希望他们能看到结果本身得到证明。

Lenny: Got it.

莱尼：明白了。

I think that's such an interesting point, this idea of testing more, which basically you're saying with Instagram certain people will see it and that's not going to be shown tons of random people.

我认为这是一个非常有趣的观点，这个进行更多测试的想法，基本上你是说在 Instagram 上某些人会看到它，而不会向大量随机的人展示。

So you basically have one shot at getting this in front of the Instagram crowd versus TikTok just tries it, this explore and exploit kind of approach is like, we'll just keep trying stuff until something sticks.

因此，你基本上有机会在 Instagram 人群面前展示这一点，而 TikTok 只是尝试一下，这种探索和利用的方法就像是，我们将继续尝试一些东西，直到有东西坚持下去。

Ray Cao: Yeah, I think exactly like that 100%.

曹睿：是的，我认为100%完全一样。

I think a lot of times that I think advertising, especially when digital advertising becomes a thing, so we kind of think everything can be calculated because you have the data, but the beauty of advertising is never like that.

我想很多时候我认为广告，特别是当数字广告成为一种东西时，所以我们认为一切都可以计算，因为你有数据，但广告的美妙之处从来不是这样。

The core value advertising is to tell people don't know you exist and tell them that what you're doing for them and then creating these demand, right?

广告的核心价值就是告诉人们不知道你的存在，告诉他们你在为他们做什么，然后创造这些需求，对吗？

Discovery is the core of advertising to me because I was never expecting my wife telling me that what she going to buy when she walk into a shopping mall, if I know that I'll stop her already.

发现对我来说是广告的核心，因为我从来没想过我的妻子在走进购物中心时会告诉我她要买什么，如果我知道我会阻止她的话。

She oftentimes that get out something different.

她常常会得到一些不同的东西。

So this is not planned.

所以这不是计划中的。

I think that's literally one of the behavior I would love to emphasize more is you want to be open up your door to more consumer.

我认为这实际上是我想更多强调的行为之一，那就是你想向更多消费者敞开大门。

Ray Cao: Because we are a digital version of word-of-mouth, I always compare us to that because it is the way that how the digital era becomes more human because it is actually helping user to discover new things, just like what they used to do.

曹睿：因为我们是口碑的数字版本，所以我总是把我们与它进行比较，因为这是数字时代变得更加人性化的方式，因为它实际上是在帮助用户发现新事物，就像他们以前所做的那样。

There's a new place in a certain area, you just go explore.

某个区域有一个新地方，你就去探索吧。

It is just like that.

就是这样。

So I think that's the reason why I think at the very beginning, continue doing this kind of open-minded testing with us will be a very good approach to get some early learning and eventually that you can refine your approach.

所以我认为这就是为什么我从一开始就认为继续与我们一起进行这种开放式测试将是一个非常好的方法来获得一些早期学习并最终可以完善你的方法。

But at the beginning I would highly recommend that just be open up and also take some risks with us together and we're able to show you how much we can actually benefit in the business.

但一开始我强烈建议您保持开放态度，与我们一起承担一些风险，这样我们就能向您展示我们实际上可以在业务中受益多少。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

And on that point, that was the other piece of advice you shared is pay attention to the trends so that you can connect your ad to things that people are already laughing at or finding really interesting.

在这一点上，您分享的另一条建议是关注趋势，以便您可以将您的广告与人们已经在嘲笑或发现真正有趣的事物联系起来。

I feel like Duolingo is incredible at this.

我觉得 Duolingo 在这方面非常出色。

Their videos are hilarious and I think they're all just organic videos and a lot of them connected trends that are-

他们的视频很搞笑，我认为它们都是有机视频，其中很多都与趋势相关——

Ray Cao: Yeah.

曹睿：是的。

It's funny you brought up Duolingo because I'm actually now become a heavy user of Duolingo myself because-

有趣的是你提到了 Duolingo，因为我自己现在也成为了 Duolingo 的重度用户，因为——

Ray Cao: I watched the video on the TikTok.

曹睿：我在TikTok上看了这个视频。

I think just basically kids just randomly learn a different language and make a lot of mistakes and it's really funny.

我认为基本上孩子们只是随机学习一种不同的语言并犯很多错误，这真的很有趣。

And then I just download the app because I didn't know.

然后我就下载了这个应用程序，因为我不知道。

I've been using Duolingo for the past 40 days as a New Year resolution.

作为新年决心，我在过去 40 天里一直在使用 Duolingo。

I'm convincing myself to learn Japanese.

我说服自己一定要学日语。

Ray Cao: Okay, great.

曹睿：好的，太好了。

We're on par pretty much.

我们的水平差不多了

Lenny: Are you in the Ruby league or Emerald league?

莱尼：你是红宝石联赛还是翡翠联赛？

Which league are you in right now?

你现在在哪个联赛？

Lenny: Emerald.

莱尼：翡翠。

Okay.

好的。

I think I'm in Emerald, too.

我想我也在翡翠城。

Lenny: Just to close the thread on this, so you're talking about one of the benefits of TikTok ads is awareness-building basically more top of funnel.

Lenny：为了结束这个话题，所以你所说的 TikTok 广告的好处之一是提高意识，基本上是在漏斗的顶部。

I know you also focus a lot on taking action, not just brand awareness.

我知道您也非常注重采取行动，而不仅仅是品牌知名度。

There's also a lot of, so maybe talk a bit about that, just like that's also a big part of advertising and TikTok.

还有很多，所以也许可以谈谈这一点，就像这也是广告和 TikTok 的重要组成部分一样。

Ray Cao: Yeah, I think the beauty of word-of-mouth is actually that word-of-mouth leads to actions.

曹睿：是的，我认为口碑的美妙之处实际上在于口碑导致行动。

So I think TikTok, we oftentimes people are thinking that, oh, TikTok is really good for building awareness, building upper funnel or some of the discovery funnel.

所以我认为 TikTok，我们经常人们在想，哦，Ti​​kTok 对于建立意识、建立上层漏斗或一些发现漏斗确实很有好处。

But I really want to say that we want to prove, and also we already proved that from the studies we have seen from third parties that we're driving actions at the same time, and this is literally the ambition we're trying to really talk to out of the advertisers, especially on the commerce front, that shopping and TikTok shop and shop ads.

但我真的想说，我们想要证明，而且我们已经从第三方的研究中证明，我们正在同时推动行动，这实际上是我们试图与广告商真正谈论的雄心，特别是在商业方面，即购物和 TikTok 商店和商店广告。

It is actually the proven points that we see.

这实际上是我们看到的已被证明的观点。

And also, this is not necessarily coming off of our illusion, right, because we see there was a biggest trend on TikTok is "TikTok made me buy it." We have billion level views on that.

而且，这并不一定是我们的幻想，对吧，因为我们看到 TikTok 上最大的趋势是“TikTok 让我买了它”。我们对此有十亿级的看法。

Ray Cao: It's continue growing and this literally inspire us to do this product.

Ray Cao：它在不断增长，这确实激励我们做这个产品。

Like I said, one of the very important things here is we drive our product by listening to our user and see the behavior from them and we see the behavior and now we're trying to capture that and provide the best service to our user and also help advertisers to reshaping their product.

就像我说的，这里非常重要的事情之一是，我们通过倾听用户的声音并查看他们的行为来驱动我们的产品，我们看到了这些行为，现在我们正在努力捕捉这一点，为我们的用户提供最好的服务，并帮助广告商重塑他们的产品。

So I do think that this year people will see us more as a full funnel solution platform rather than only building the brands because we want actually impacting on full funnel for our advertisers.

因此，我确实认为今年人们会更多地将我们视为一个完整的漏斗解决方案平台，而不仅仅是建立品牌，因为我们希望真正影响广告商的整个漏斗。

Again, driving their business result is more important to us.

同样，推动他们的业务成果对我们来说更重要。

Lenny: Say a startup is starting to think about advertising on TikTok, maybe they've done some Google ads and Facebook ads.

Lenny：假设一家初创公司开始考虑在 TikTok 上做广告，也许他们已经做了一些 Google 广告和 Facebook 广告。

What do you recommend they plan for in order to just see if this could work for them?

您建议他们计划什么，以便看看这是否适合他们？

How much time should they give it?

他们应该给它多少时间？

How many ads should they run?

他们应该投放多少广告？

How much budget should they allot to just explore this as a growth channel for them?

他们应该分配多少预算来探索这个作为他们的增长渠道？

Ray Cao: I would say at the very beginning, the investment will be coming from their leaning into creating a business account with us.

Ray Cao：我想说，一开始，投资将来自他们倾向于在我们这里创建一个企业账户。

So this is actually how you're engaging with your community.

这实际上就是您与社区互动的方式。

But even before that, I think just do some research on a platform and be the user as a TikTok to really experiencing it and see the differences.

但即使在那之前，我认为只要对一个平台做一些研究，并成为 TikTok 的用户，才能真正体验它并看到差异。

And then you are thinking about how can you actually connecting your behavior or your desired behavior coming from a user with your business and then you're creating content around it.

然后你正在考虑如何真正将你的行为或来自用户的期望行为与你的业务联系起来，然后你围绕它创建内容。

And that's the moment I think this first step is creating your business presence on the TikTok.

就在那时，我认为第一步就是在 TikTok 上建立您的业务。

Lenny: And the idea there is just an organic account you create, let's say Lenny's Podcast, which I actually have...

莱尼：这个想法就是你创建一个有机帐户，比如说莱尼的播客，我实际上有......

my Lenny's Podcast is on TikTok, so we can use that as an example maybe.

我的 Lenny 的播客在 TikTok 上，所以我们也许可以用它作为例子。

So you're saying start off just creating free business accounts on TikTok and posting videos just to see how it feels and how it goes?

所以你是说一开始就在 TikTok 上创建免费的企业帐户并发布视频只是为了看看感觉如何以及进展如何？

Ray Cao: Yeah.

曹睿：是的。

Just see how it feels, right?

看看感觉如何吧？

So maybe some of the videos you don't get any views and some of the videos, you get more views.

因此，也许有些视频您没有获得任何观看次数，而有些视频您会获得更多观看次数。

At the end of the day you can test some of the advertising products, drive those awareness and see if it's actually driving impact for you.

最终，您可以测试一些广告产品，提高这些意识，看看它是否真正对您产生影响。

And then you have to do more maybe testing with us or AB testing or geo-splitting testing eventually, depends on how big the investment is.

然后你必须做更多的事情，也许与我们一起测试，或者最终进行 AB 测试或地域分割测试，这取决于投资有多大。

You can see there is actually a directional impact on your business and also we are giving you reporting and insights on how you're doing on the platform, so you can optimize in towards that.

您可以看到，这实际上对您的业务产生了定向影响，而且我们还为您提供有关您在平台上的表现的报告和见解，以便您可以对此进行优化。

Ray Cao: But obviously very important part is trying to get a feeling of the platform by creating your organic presence and then try to launch the ads account to make sure that you're able to drive more traffic to your desired destination or to a desired actions that you want user to take and continue refining that.

Ray Cao：但显然非常重要的部分是尝试通过创建有机存在来体验平台，然后尝试启动广告帐户，以确保您能够将更多流量吸引到您想要的目的地或您希望​​用户采取的所需操作，并继续完善它。

Along the way, there are a lot of things that you're going to learn.

一路走来，您将学到很多东西。

For example, how can you leverage in automation solutions on the platform and how can leveraging some of the, I would say, creator trends you detected on the platform and also some of the tools that we're creating to help you to generating those scripts.

例如，您如何利用平台上的自动化解决方案，以及如何利用您在平台上检测到的一些创作者趋势，以及我们正在创建的一些工具来帮助您生成这些脚本。

Ray Cao: So these are all the things that you can learn from the platform.

曹睿：所以这些都是你可以从平台上学到的东西。

In terms of time investment, I think at the beginning of the month, definitely it's going to be, I hope it'll be a little bit more intense of learning so that you're able to get a rhythm in there and along the way that as long as gets become more automated and also get more understanding towards the business, you're able to actually creating, I would say, more relevant content for the platforms by leveraging our creators or by leveraging some of your own, I would say, resources from their third party, for example.

就时间投资而言，我认为在本月初，肯定会是，我希望学习会更加激烈一些，这样你就能够在那里找到节奏，只要变得更加自动化，并且对业务有更多的了解，你就能够通过利用我们的创作者或利用你自己的一些资源，我想说，来自第三方的资源，为平台实际创建更多相关的内容。

So I think, yeah, it takes a little bit a learning curve, but I do think that the result will surprise you.

所以我认为，是的，这需要一点学习曲线，但我确实认为结果会让你感到惊讶。

Lenny: And was the implication there, give it a month?

莱尼：这是否意味着一个月？

Like spend a month of running ads or is that not what you're saying?

比如花一个月的时间投放广告，或者这不是您的意思？

Ray Cao: I think oftentimes we'll say a month minimum to run ads because I think it's actually a learning curve for advertisers to really get into understanding the behavior and the platform.

Ray Cao：我认为我们经常会说投放广告至少需要一个月，因为我认为广告商真正了解行为和平台实际上是一个学习曲线。

Lenny: And how many ads would you suggest, and I know there's not a rule of thumb, but just how many ads would you suggest they try to run in that month, to give you a real sense of this could work or no?

莱尼：你会建议多少广告，我知道没有经验法则，但你会建议他们在那个月尝试投放多少广告，让你真正感受到这是否有效？

Ray Cao: The more, the better.

曹睿：越多越好。

I would say at least 10 different ad creatives will be ideal per week and the more the better.

我想说每周至少有 10 个不同的广告创意是理想的，而且越多越好。

Lenny: 10 per week.

莱尼：每周 10 次。

Oh, wow.

哦，哇。

Okay.

好的。

So 40 potentially.

所以可能有40个。

Ray Cao: Yeah, 10 per week.

曹睿：是的，每周 10 个。

Also, I would say we can see that it is a little bit of, I would like nuances there because a lot of, "Oh, I don't have that resources," but as simple as possible, it can give you a tool.

另外，我想说我们可以看到它有一点点，我希望那里有细微差别，因为很多人，“哦，我没有那个资源”，但尽可能简单，它可以给你一个工具。

We have CapCut as a tool.

我们有 CapCut 作为工具。

I created my anniversary video for my wife by using that tool.

我使用该工具为我的妻子制作了周年纪念视频。

Don't tell her one-minute now everybody knows, but she thinks that-

一分钟别告诉她，现在大家都知道了，但她认为——

Lenny: She might not listen all the way this long to the end of this episode.

莱尼：她可能不会一直听到这一集的结尾。

Ray Cao: She thinks it takes a lot of time.

曹睿：她认为这需要很多时间。

Literally the production is amazing.

从字面上看，制作非常惊人。

We are creating that tool specifically for our creator and also for our monetizer and the user in general.

我们正在专门为我们的创作者、我们的货币化者和一般用户创建该工具。

So you're able to do a lot of, I would say, automated and customized way in the app so you're able to generate those content on your fingertips.

因此，我想说，您可以在应用程序中以自动化和自定义的方式执行很多操作，这样您就可以轻松生成这些内容。

So it will be a really good help for advertisers that want to be more self-service.

因此，对于想要更多自助服务的广告商来说，这将是一个非常好的帮助。

On the other hand, we also have third parties, certified TikTok service providers on the creative side to help you as well.

另一方面，我们在创意方面也有第三方、经过认证的 TikTok 服务提供商来为您提供帮助。

So depends on the level of how advertiser you are.

所以取决于你的广告商的水平。

Lenny: Is there a most common mistake people make when they try this out where you're just often being like, "You fool, here's what you did wrong?" Is there something in there that's just like, "Just don't do this thing because a lot of people make this mistake and then they fail on TikTok?"

莱尼：当人们尝试这个时，是否有一个最常见的错误，你经常会说，“你这个傻瓜，这就是你做错的地方？”其中是否有类似“不要做这件事，因为很多人都犯了这个错误，然后他们在 TikTok 上失败了”之类的内容？

Ray Cao: Yeah, the first one is I can see a lot of advertiser instantly they want to do remarketing or they want to do a very small niche targeting on the platform because you're limiting yourself.

Ray Cao：是的，第一个是我可以立即看到很多广告客户想要进行再营销，或者他们想要在平台上进行非常小的利基定位，因为你限制了自己。

Like I said, it is more about getting to the rhythm to understand more about platform.

就像我说的，更多的是要掌握节奏以更多地了解平台。

So a broader targeting approach is actually recommended at the very early stage and most of advertisers are already doing that today because previously I can see for the first two years in the business, especially when we acquire new advertisers, oftentimes they get on the platform, say, "Hey, I want to do this and that.

因此，实际上在早期阶段就建议采用更广泛的定位方法，并且大多数广告商今天已经这样做了，因为以前我可以看到业务的前两年，特别是当我们收购新的广告商时，他们经常会在平台上说，“嘿，我想做这个做那个。

I want to really refine my targeting, et cetera." And then we just recommend, "Hey, why don't we do this comparison?

我想真正完善我的目标等等。”然后我们只是建议，“嘿，我们为什么不做这个比较呢？

You have a campaign set up like this going on, but this is our recommendation and you can see the difference." And literally most of them, they'll see a very big difference over there on it.

您正在进行这样的活动，但这是我们的建议，您可以看到其中的差异。”从字面上看，他们中的大多数人都会看到那里有很大的差异。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

Ray, I know you have to run, I'm going to skip the lightning round, but let me ask you just one question from lightning round.

雷，我知道你必须逃跑，我要跳过闪电回合，但让我问你闪电回合中的一个问题。

Do you have a favorite TikTok account that you've been just really loving these days?

您有最近非常喜欢的最喜欢的 TikTok 帐户吗？

I'll share mine real quick and then see if anything comes to mind.

我会很快分享我的想法，然后看看是否有什么想法。

There's this lady who I found recently who does silent baby product reviews where her baby's sleeping in the room and she is like, "Shh." And then she just goes through 20 different baby products very quietly and it's hilarious.

我最近发现一位女士，她做无声的婴儿产品评论，她的孩子在房间里睡觉，她就像是“嘘”。然后她就安静地浏览 20 种不同的婴儿用品，这真是太搞笑了。

I'll link to it in the show notes.

我将在演出笔记中链接到它。

If you have a kid, you'll love it.

如果你有孩子，你一定会喜欢的。

Is there anything that you love or want to highlight?

有什么您喜欢或想强调的吗？

Ray Cao: I do have one creator I am actually active following is on.

Ray Cao：我确实有一位创作者，我实际上很活跃，正在关注。

He's a magician.

他是一个魔术师。

He basically uses very, I would say, very normal things, just handy around him to make something that look very cool magic.

我想说，他基本上使用非常，非常普通的东西，只要在他身边方便就能做出一些看起来非常酷的魔法。

I always were like, how did he make that?

我总是想，他是怎么做到的？

So I'm actually following that and getting more inspiration on myself is like, "Can I do that?

所以我实际上正在遵循这一点，并从自己身上获得更多灵感，就像“我能做到吗？

No." I think that's more about my personal hobby to see something like that.

不。”我认为看到这样的东西更多的是我个人的爱好。

It's very, very cool to see people can do these kinds of tricks by using normal stuff around them.

看到人们可以通过使用周围的普通东西来完成这些技巧，真是非常非常酷。

Lenny: Ray, thank you so much for being here.

莱尼：雷，非常感谢你来到这里。

Two last questions.

最后两个问题。

How can folks reach out if they ever want to learn more about this stuff, if they can, and how can listeners be useful to you?

如果人们想了解更多有关这些东西的信息（如果可以的话），他们该如何联系？听众如何对你有用？

Ray Cao: I think feel free to reach out to me on LinkedIn if you want to discuss more about some of the go-to market challenges you're facing.

Ray Cao：如果您想更多地讨论您面临的一些进入市场的挑战，我想请随时在 LinkedIn 上与我联系。

I think we're facing a lot of, I would say similar challenges every single day.

我认为我们每天都面临着很多类似的挑战。

And also in terms of on the product standpoint, different companies have a different product philosophy.

而且从产品的角度来看，不同的公司有不同的产品理念。

I don't think we are always right.

我不认为我们总是对的。

I was always recommending to receive a lot of feedbacks or recommendations and that would be really, really nice to have to form these kind, leveraging your audience, be my community to teach me a lesson sometimes.

我总是建议收到很多反馈或建议，如果能形成这样的反馈或建议，利用你的受众，成为我的社区，有时给我上一课，那就太好了。

That'll be even better.

那会更好。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

Ray, again, thank you so much for being here.

雷，再次非常感谢你来到这里。

I feel like people don't have a ton of insight into the way TikTok operates, and I appreciate making time to do this.

我觉得人们对 TikTok 的运作方式没有太多了解，我很高兴抽出时间来做这件事。

Ray Cao: No, it's a pleasure, Lenny.

曹雷：不，很高兴，莱尼。

Thank you very much for having me.

非常感谢你邀请我。

Lenny: Bye everyone.

莱尼：大家再见。

Thank you so much for listening.

非常感谢您的聆听。

If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.

如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at Lenny'spodcast.com.

您可以在 Lenny'spodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。