How to build your product strategy stack | Ravi Mehta (Tinder, Facebook, Tripadvisor, Outpace)

Ravi Mehta: The framework I like to use with product leaders that I'm coaching is to think about a matrix.

Ravi Mehta：我喜欢与我所指导的产品负责人一起使用的框架是思考矩阵。

Your ideal goal is to lead in a scalable way, which means you feel really confident about the direction of your team and your team has the autonomy to move in that direction.

您的理想目标是以可扩展的方式进行领导，这意味着您对团队的方向非常有信心，并且您的团队有朝这个方向前进的自主权。

There's another really effective way of leading, which is selective micromanagement, which if you don't feel confident in the direction that your team is moving, the right answer is not to be hands-off and to let them go in that wrong direction.

还有另一种真正有效的领导方式，那就是选择性微观管理，如果你对团队前进的方向没有信心，正确的答案就是不要袖手旁观，让他们朝着错误的方向前进。

The right answer is to micromanage, but do it in a very tactical and a very temporary way so that you can help them understand what is the right direction moving forward so that you can then pull back.

正确的答案是微观管理，但要以一种非常战术性和临时性的方式进行，这样你就可以帮助他们了解前进的正确方向是什么，这样你就可以撤退。

Lenny: Welcome to Lenny's Podcast.

莱尼：欢迎来到莱尼的播客。

I'm Lenny and my goal here is to help you get better at the craft of building and growing products.

我是莱尼，我的目标是帮助您更好地构建和种植产品。

I interview world-class product leaders and growth experts to learn from their hard one experiences building and scaling today's most successful companies.

我采访了世界一流的产品领导者和增长专家，从他们建立和扩展当今最成功的公司的艰辛经历中学习。

Lenny: Today my guest is Ravi Mehta.

莱尼：今天我的客人是拉维·梅塔。

Ravi was chief product officer at Tinder, the product director at Facebook, VP of product at Tripadvisor, and now he's co-founder and CEO of a company called Outpace that he shares a bit about.

Ravi 曾任 Tinder 首席产品官、Facebook 产品总监、Tripadvisor 产品副总裁，现在他是一家名为 Outpace 的公司的联合创始人兼首席执行官，他对这家公司有过一些介绍。

Ravi is one of my favorite writers and sharers of product wisdom and he also helped create and teaches the Reforge programs on product leadership and product strategy, which is where we spend most of our time.

Ravi 是我最喜欢的作家和产品智慧分享者之一，他还帮助创建和教授有关产品领导力和产品策略的 Reforge 项目，这是我们花费大部分时间的地方。

We talk about how to get better at crafting product strategy, how to develop your skills as a product leader, and a bit about the differences between being a PM at a large company versus building your own company.

我们讨论如何更好地制定产品策略，如何发展作为产品领导者的技能，以及在大公司担任产品经理与创建自己的公司之间的区别。

Like I say in the intro, I feel like more people need to know about Ravi and I'm excited to help you with that.

就像我在简介中所说的那样，我觉得更多的人需要了解拉维，我很高兴能够帮助您。

With that, I bring you Ravi Mehta after a short word from our wonderful sponsors.

在我们出色的赞助商简短致辞后，我为您带来了拉维·梅塔 (Ravi Mehta)。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Merge.

莱尼：这一集是由 Merge 为您带来的。

Every product manager knows the pain of slowing product velocity when developers struggle to build and maintain integrations with other platforms.

每个产品经理都知道，当开发人员努力构建和维护与其他平台的集成时，产品速度减慢的痛苦。

Merge's unified API can remove this blocker from your roadmap.

Merge 的统一 API 可以从您的路线图中消除这个障碍。

With one API, your team can add over 150 HR, ATS, accounting, ticketing and CRM integrations right into your product.

通过一个 API，您的团队可以将 150 多个 HR、ATS、会计、票务和 CRM 集成直接添加到您的产品中。

You can get your first integration into production in a matter of days and save countless weeks building custom integrations, letting you get back to building your core product.

您可以在几天内首次集成到生产中，并节省构建自定义集成的无数周时间，让您可以重新构建核心产品。

Merge's integrations speed up the product development process for companies like Ramp, Drata, and many other fast growing and established companies, allowing them to test their features at scale without having to worry about a never-ending integrations roadmap.

Merge 的集成加快了 Ramp、Drata 等公司以及许多其他快速发展和成熟公司的产品开发流程，使他们能够大规模测试其功能，而不必担心永无止境的集成路线图。

Save your engineers' countless hours and expedite your sales cycle by making integration offerings your competitive advantage with Merge.

通过 Merge 使集成产品成为您的竞争优势，节省您的工程师无数的时间并加快您的销售周期。

Visit merge.dev/lenny, you get started and integrate up to five customers for free.

访问 merge.dev/lenny，您可以免费开始并集成最多五个客户。

Lenny: Today's episode is brought to you by OneSchema, the embeddable CSV importer for SaaS.

Lenny：今天的节目是由 OneSchema 为您带来的，OneSchema 是 SaaS 的嵌入式 CSV 导入器。

Customers always seem to want to give you their data in the messiest possible CSV file.

客户似乎总是希望在最混乱的 CSV 文件中向您提供他们的数据。

And building a spreadsheet importer becomes a never-ending sync for your engineering and support resources.

构建电子表格导入器将成为您的工程和支持资源的永无休止的同步。

If you keep adding features to your spreadsheet importer, the customers keep running into issues.

如果您不断向电子表格导入器添加功能，客户就会不断遇到问题。

Six months later, you're fixing yet another date conversion edge case bug.

六个月后，您正在修复另一个日期转换边缘情况错误。

Most tools aren't built for handling messy data, but OneSchema is.

大多数工具并不是为处理杂乱数据而构建的，但 OneSchema 却是。

Companies like Scale AI and Pave are using OneSchema to make it fast and easy to launch delightful spreadsheet import experiences from embeddable CSV import to importing CSVs from an SFTP folder on a recurring basis.

Scale AI 和 Pave 等公司正在使用 OneSchema 快速轻松地推出令人愉悦的电子表格导入体验，从嵌入式 CSV 导入到定期从 SFTP 文件夹导入 CSV。

Spreadsheet import is such an awful experience in so many products.

对于许多产品来说，电子表格导入是一种非常糟糕的体验。

Customers get frustrated by useless messages like Error Online 53 and never end up getting started with your product.

客户会对 Error Online 53 等无用消息感到沮丧，并且永远不会开始使用您的产品。

OneSchema intelligently corrects messy data so that your customers don't have to spend hours in Excel just to get started with your product.

OneSchema 可以智能地纠正杂乱的数据，这样您的客户就不必在 Excel 上花费数小时来开始使用您的产品。

For listeners of this podcast, OneSchema's offering a $1,000 discount.

对于此播客的听众，OneSchema 提供 1,000 美元的折扣。

Learn more at oneschema.co/lenny.

如需了解更多信息，请访问 oneschema.co/lenny。

Ravi Mehta: Yeah, thank you for having me.

拉维·梅塔：是的，谢谢你邀请我。

I'm excited to be here.

我很高兴来到这里。

Lenny: So I've been a huge fan of your writing for a long time.

莱尼：所以长期以来我一直是你写作的忠实粉丝。

And this may sound a little weird, but I just feel like not enough people know about you and I'm just excited to learn from you and also just to share your wisdom with more people.

这听起来可能有点奇怪，但我只是觉得没有足够多的人了解你，我很高兴向你学习，也很高兴与更多人分享你的智慧。

Ravi Mehta: Oh, thank you.

拉维·梅塔：哦，谢谢。

That means a lot.

这意味着很多。

I've been a fan of all of your work as well.

我也一直是你所有作品的粉丝。

I've been following the podcast.

我一直在关注播客。

It's been great to see how it's evolved over the years.

很高兴看到它多年来的发展。

Lenny: Awesome, man.

莱尼：太棒了，伙计。

I really appreciate that.

我真的很感激。

It continues evolving.

它不断发展。

So just to start with a little bit of your background, can you just take a minute to share just like an overview of your career arc and touch on some of the wonderful things you've done and then just talk a little bit about what you're up to these days.

因此，首先介绍一下您的背景，您能花一点时间来分享一下您的职业生涯轨迹，并谈谈您所做的一些精彩的事情，然后谈谈您这些天在做什么。

Ravi Mehta: Yeah, I've been in the tech industry for a long time, so I will date myself.

拉维·梅塔：是的，我在科技行业工作了很长时间，所以我会和自己约会。

I started in the mid-90's.

我是从 90 年代中期开始的。

My dad was at American Express and he had just done a big buy of computers, one of their first big installations of computers, and he brought home an Apple TC computer, and back then there wasn't much to do on it other than to learn to code.

我父亲在美国运通公司工作，他刚刚买了一大堆电脑，这是他们第一批大型电脑安装之一，他带回家一台苹果 TC 电脑，当时除了学习编码之外，没有什么可做的。

So I started coding really young.

所以我很小的时候就开始编码。

I was nine, 10 years old and really just fell in love with technology and that's persisted with me today.

我九岁、十岁的时候就真的爱上了技术，并且这种爱一直持续到今天。

Ravi Mehta: I started a game company in high school.

Ravi Mehta：我在高中时创办了一家游戏公司。

I did that full time and part time in college, so I dropped out for a little bit during college.

我在大学里全职和兼职做这件事，所以我在大学期间退学了一段时间。

Went back and finished up my degree.

回去完成了我的学位。

And then my first role out of school was Microsoft, and so I joined Microsoft at a really interesting time when they were making a pretty significant investment in games.

然后我离开学校后的第一个角色是微软，所以我在一个非常有趣的时刻加入了微软，当时他们对游戏进行了相当大的投资。

And so I joined as one of the first few people on the Xbox Live team.

因此，我作为第一批加入 Xbox Live 团队的人之一加入了。

Really focused on thinking about how does a company that's building its future on the internet think about where gaming is going.

真正专注于思考一家在互联网上打造未来的公司如何思考游戏的发展方向。

And that was really different than how other companies in the space like Nintendo or Sony were thinking about gaming.

这与任天堂或索尼等该领域其他公司对游戏的看法确实不同。

Ravi Mehta: Spent about six years there, worked on stuff on the platform side, on the content side.

拉维·梅塔：在那里呆了大约六年，致力于平台方面、内容方面的工作。

It was a really great experience, but I knew I wanted to go earlier stage.

这真是一次很棒的经历，但我知道我想进入更早的阶段。

So straight after Microsoft, I went to business school, dabbled a little bit in management consulting, but decided I really wanted to build things and so I went back into an early stage startup right after business school.

离开微软之后，我就去了商学院，涉足了一点管理咨询，但我决定我真的想创造一些东西，所以我在商学院毕业后立即回到了早期创业公司。

I started as employee number one at a FinTech startup.

我最初是一家金融科技初创公司的一号员工。

Shortly after that I joined Brian Balfour, who's the CEO of Reforge at his first startup.

不久之后，我加入了布莱恩·贝尔福 (Brian Balfour)，他在他的第一家初创公司中担任 Reforge 的首席执行官。

Ravi Mehta: And my most recent few roles have been product leadership roles at Tripadvisor where I was head of the consumer product team, product leadership role at Facebook, and then I was the chief product officer at Tinder.

Ravi Mehta：我最近的几个职位是 Tripadvisor 的产品领导职位，我是消费者产品团队的负责人，Facebook 的产品领导职位，然后是 Tinder 的首席产品官。

And for the last couple of years I've gone back into the startup side of things and happy to talk about that some more.

在过去的几年里，我又回到了创业方面，并很高兴能更多地谈论这一点。

Lenny: Yeah, let's talk a little bit about what you're doing now and just to kind of put that out there and then we'll keep going.

莱尼：是的，让我们谈谈你现在正在做的事情，然后把它放在那里，然后我们会继续前进。

Ravi Mehta: That sounds good.

拉维·梅塔：听起来不错。

So I spent about 10 years or so at bigger companies working with large product management teams and large engineering teams.

因此，我在大公司工作了大约 10 年，与大型产品管理团队和大型工程团队合作。

I find that work incredibly fulfilling in terms of the ability to impact people at scale, but I was also really missing the idea of building something new and really thinking about where things are going and not having to solve for some of the legacy constraints that large businesses have to solve for.

我发现这项工作在大规模影响人们的能力方面令人难以置信，但我也真的错过了构建新事物的想法，并真正思考事情的发展方向，而不必解决大型企业必须解决的一些遗留限制。

So I decided to leave Tinder and at that point started to explore what I wanted to do next.

所以我决定离开 Tinder，并开始探索我下一步想做什么。

Ravi Mehta: I spent about 18 months working with Reforge as an entrepreneur in residence or an executive in residence with Reforge, helping them build and launch the product leadership program and helping them launch the product strategy program.

Ravi Mehta：我在 Reforge 工作了大约 18 个月，担任 Reforge 常驻企业家或常驻高管，帮助他们建立和启动产品领导计划，并帮助他们启动产品战略计划。

And during the process of doing that, I had conversations with dozens of people that were at the middle point of their career and found a really interesting common challenge in that there's lots of ways to learn new skills.

在这样做的过程中，我与数十位处于职业生涯中期的人进行了交谈，并发现了一个非常有趣的共同挑战，因为有很多方法可以学习新技能。

Now there's great podcasts and blogs.

现在有很棒的播客和博客。

There's great cohort-based courses like Reforge.

有一些很棒的基于队列的课程，例如 Reforge。

But one of the things I found incredibly helpful in my career that really helped me level up was one-on-one coaching.

但我发现对我的职业生涯非常有帮助、真正帮助我提升水平的事情之一就是一对一的辅导。

There was nothing that could really replace the opportunity to have a conversation with someone who had the ability to ask the right questions, had the ability to help you see around corners, do the experiences that they had had.

没有什么能够真正取代与有能力提出正确问题、有能力帮助你洞察周围情况、借鉴他们的经历的人进行对话的机会。

And coaching had just not gotten any more accessible over the years.

多年来，教练并没有变得更容易获得。

Ravi Mehta: And so about 18 months ago, I decided to start Outpace, which is a company focused on making elite expert-driven coaching available to everyone.

Ravi Mehta：大约 18 个月前，我决定创办 Outpace，这是一家致力于为每个人提供精英专家驱动的辅导的公司。

And we're using a combination of really focusing on the product, using a lot of systems and content to structure the coaching process.

我们正在结合真正关注产品，使用大量系统和内容来构建辅导流程。

We're also using AI to make coaches more efficient with the goal of making expertise-driven coaching a lot more accessible for folks.

我们还使用人工智能来提高教练的效率，目标是让人们更容易获得专业知识驱动的教练。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

So a first area I wanted to spend a little time on is you talked about your career arc, you're CPO at Tinder, product director at Facebook, VP at Tripadvisor, and now you started a company and you've started companies in the past.

因此，我想花一点时间讨论的第一个领域是您谈到了您的职业生涯，您是 Tinder 的首席产品官、Facebook 的产品总监、Tripadvisor 的副总裁，现在您创办了一家公司，而且您过去也曾创办过公司。

A lot of PMs listening to this have a hope that they will start a company someday and they're probably working at a company like a big tech company somewhere or not, or they're starting a company right now and they're kind of in the process of starting a company.

很多听到这个的产品经理都希望有一天他们能创办一家公司，他们可能正在某个地方的一家大型科技公司工作，或者不在某个地方，或者他们现在正在创办一家公司，他们正在创办一家公司。

And I'm curious what you found to be the biggest differences between being a product leader at a bigger company versus a startup, especially your own startup, and especially what are maybe the biggest surprises you've felt from moving and making that transition?

我很好奇你发现作为一家大公司的产品领导者与一家初创公司（尤其是你自己的初创公司）的产品负责人之间最大的区别是什么，特别是你在搬迁和进行这种转变时感受到的最大惊喜是什么？

Ravi Mehta: There's been a couple of really interesting mind shifts I've had to go through over the last 18 months as I moved from a product leadership role to a founder role.

Ravi Mehta：在过去 18 个月里，当我从产品领导角色转变为创始人角色时，我不得不经历一些非常有趣的思维转变。

The first one is really thinking differently about speed.

第一个对于速度的思考确实不同。

I think there's this common, I would say it's a misconception that startups are faster than larger companies.

我认为这是一个普遍现象，我想说这是一种误解，认为初创公司比大公司更快。

And what I found initially is actually things felt slower when I started my own company because I didn't have as many engineers to work with.

我最初发现，当我创办自己的公司时，事情实际上感觉更慢，因为我没有那么多工程师可以合作。

I didn't have a team built around things.

我没有一个围绕事物建立的团队。

We didn't have momentum around existing users to be able to research and target.

我们没有围绕现有用户进行研究和定位的动力。

Ravi Mehta: And what I realized as I've kind of been through the journey over the last 18 months is that the speed that startups have is not really about velocity.

Ravi Mehta：在过去 18 个月的经历中，我意识到初创公司的速度并不是真正的速度。

Bigger companies can always get more done, they can always spend more, they can always move with a higher degree of velocity than smaller companies.

与小公司相比，大公司总是可以做得更多，他们总是可以花更多的钱，他们总是可以以更高的速度前进。

The advantage a smaller company has really is in latency.

小公司的优势确实在于延迟。

You can have an idea one day, you can test it the next day, and as a result you can have this really short cycle time between an assumption or a hypothesis and being able to validate that hypothesis.

你可以有一天有一个想法，第二天就可以测试它，因此，你可以在假设或假设之间有一个非常短的周期时间，并且能够验证该假设。

And that's just not true at larger companies where there's a lot more momentum.

但对于那些有更多动力的大公司来说，情况并非如此。

Ravi Mehta: The analogy I like to use, it's like driving a car.

拉维·梅塔：我喜欢用这个比喻，就像开车一样。

If a car is going really, really fast, it can't turn as quickly, the turning radius is lower.

如果汽车行驶得非常非常快，它就不能那么快转弯，转弯半径就会更小。

And so startups have a really tight turning radius and bigger companies have a really high rate of velocity.

因此，初创公司的转弯半径非常小，而大公司的速度非常高。

And so that was one of the things that for me took some adjustment in terms of thinking about how to boil down what would've been a pretty big ambitious plan at a larger company into something that has much smaller pieces and where you can iterate towards things and get data every day or every couple of weeks rather than have a bigger project that might take a quarter long to execute.

因此，对我来说，考虑如何将一家大公司的一个相当大的雄心勃勃的计划归结为具有更小部分的东西，并且你可以每天或每几周迭代事物并获取数据，而不是有一个可能需要四分之一时间才能执行的更大项目，这对我来说是需要进行一些调整的事情之一。

Lenny: Just so folks understand what you mean by that, this interesting difference between speed and latency.

Lenny：只是为了让人们理解你的意思，速度和延迟之间有趣的差异。

So what exactly is the difference?

那么到底有什么区别呢？

Latency is basically how fast you can make decisions and change courses.

延迟基本上是指您做出决定和改变路线的速度。

Is that how you think about it?

你是这么想的吗？

Ravi Mehta: I think about velocity is sort of the quantity of work and latency is how quickly you can go from an idea to actually being able to test that idea and learn whether or not that idea was the right one.

Ravi Mehta：我认为速度是指工作量，而延迟是指从一个想法到实际能够测试该想法并了解该想法是否正确的速度。

Ravi Mehta: One of the questions to test out latency that I likes to ask PMs is if there's a really simple change that you want to make to a product, like being able to change a button so you can test two different texts on a particular button, how long does it take to go from we think that this change is worth making to actually getting the results of whether or not it was the right change?

Ravi Mehta：我喜欢问 PM 的测试延迟的问题之一是，您是否想要对产品进行非常简单的更改，例如能够更改按钮，以便您可以在特定按钮上测试两个不同的文本，从我们认为此更改值得进行到实际获得是否是正确更改的结果需要多长时间？

Ravi Mehta: The second thing is really thinking differently about how to make decisions.

拉维·梅塔：第二件事是如何以不同的方式思考如何做出决定。

I think a lot of really effective companies today that have large audiences get to rely on an experimental way of making decisions.

我认为当今许多真正有效、拥有大量受众的公司都依赖于实验性的决策方式。

So you throw things out there, you run an experiment, you get to see what's statistically significant, and based on that, that provides a really nice way to learn about what users want and iterate towards an optimal product.

所以你把东西扔在那里，你运行一个实验，你可以看到什么是统计上显着的，基于此，这提供了一个非常好的方法来了解用户想要什么并迭代到最佳产品。

Ravi Mehta: At a startup, you can't do that.

Ravi Mehta：在初创公司，你不能这样做。

You just don't have those users to test with.

您只是没有可供测试的用户。

And I think a lot of startups make the mistake of trying to use an experimental approach too early where it just takes either way too long to get statistically significant results, which reduces that latency, or those results aren't as valid because you have to use a much smaller sample set.

我认为很多初创公司都犯了过早尝试使用实验方法的错误，无论哪种方式都需要太长时间才能获得统计上显着的结果，这会减少延迟，或者这些结果不那么有效，因为你必须使用更小的样本集。

And so I've had to shift my mindset from an experimental-oriented approach to making decisions to much more of a conviction-oriented approach.

因此，我必须将我的思维方式从以实验为导向的决策方法转变为以信念为导向的方法。

Ravi Mehta: And I've often found myself asking the question of like, do we just have enough data to have informed conviction and we should move forward and stop digging, move forward in a particular direction, and then see whether or not that turns out to be the right one?

拉维·梅塔：我经常问自己这样的问题，我们是否有足够的数据来坚定信念，我们应该继续前进，停止挖掘，朝某个特定方向前进，然后看看这是否是正确的方向？

Because too often in a startup you can spend a lot of time in paralysis around analyzing market research or going through all of the different things you could do strategically, thinking about all the different potential variants that you could build, all the different pricing strategies, whereas instead, a startup just makes sense to kind of get to a point where you have conviction, execute on that, and then move on to whether or not that felt like the right thing, in which case you can double down, or that was the wrong thing, in which case you can shift direction and do that pretty quickly.

因为在初创公司中，你常常会花费大量时间来分析市场研究或从战略上做所有不同的事情，思考你可以构建的所有不同的潜在变体，所有不同的定价策略，而相反，初创公司只是有意义地达到你有信念的地步，执行它，然后继续考虑这是否感觉是正确的事情，在这种情况下，你可以加倍努力，或者那是错误的事情，在这种情况下，你可以改变方向并做得很好快点。

Ravi Mehta: One of the things that I've found really surprising is the networks are pretty different.

Ravi Mehta：我发现真正令人惊讶的事情之一是网络非常不同。

So I've gotten a chance to work with an incredible amount of great people over the years and when I was starting a company, I was excited to reach out to people, tell them what I was doing, and there were a number of people that I'd worked with at larger companies that I was potentially excited about working with.

因此，多年来我有机会与数量惊人的优秀人士一起工作，当我创办一家公司时，我很高兴能与人们接触，告诉他们我在做什么，而且有很多我曾在大公司共事过的人，我可能会很高兴与他们合作。

Ravi Mehta: And what I found was that the people sort of really build their lifestyles and their careers around a particular stage.

拉维·梅塔：我发现人们实际上是围绕特定阶段建立自己的生活方式和职业生涯的。

And there are some people that like to move between stages, but the majority of people don't.

有些人喜欢在不同阶段之间移动，但大多数人不喜欢。

A lot of people that are at larger companies, they like the benefits that come with that.

很多在大公司工作的人，他们喜欢随之而来的好处。

They like the types of problems that they're working on, yet there's a whole other community of people who love to work earlier stage.

他们喜欢他们正在解决的问题类型，但还有一群人喜欢在早期阶段工作。

It could be founders.

可能是创始人。

It's also freelancers who like to help to build startups.

自由职业者也喜欢帮助建立初创公司。

It's investors and angels.

是投资者和天使。

And so that's been a really interesting part of the journey is meeting new people, getting to know those networks and starting to build out a group of people that are as passionate about that earlier stage as I am.

因此，这个旅程中非常有趣的部分是结识新朋友，了解这些网络并开始建立一群像我一样对早期阶段充满热情的人。

Lenny: Got it.

莱尼：明白了。

So you're finding that the network you may have had from say Tinder or Facebook aren't like the entrepreneurial type that maybe aren't...

所以你会发现你可能从 Tinder 或 Facebook 获得的网络并不像企业家类型，也许不是......

They're not necessarily as useful as hiring potential and things like that?

它们不一定像招聘潜力之类的东西那么有用吗？

Is that what you're finding?

这就是你要找的吗？

Ravi Mehta: Yeah.

拉维·梅塔：是的。

I think a lot of times people that are at larger companies, they're used to working in a particular way.

我认为很多时候大公司的人习惯于以特定的方式工作。

They've mastered their craft.

他们已经掌握了自己的手艺。

In terms of how they think about the next thing in their career, they really want to go deeper into that craft.

就他们如何看待职业生涯中的下一步而言，他们真的想更深入地研究这项技术。

And people who like the earlier stage or much more generalist, they're fine with kind of moving back in time.

而那些喜欢早期阶段或更通才的人，他们很乐意回到过去。

You're not going to find a lot of senior engineering leaders or senior product leaders that want to write codes and specs at big companies, but you will find those in those networks of people that are founders and that are interested in the earlier stage.

你不会在大公司找到很多想要编写代码和规范的高级工程领导者或高级产品领导者，但你会在创始人网络中找到那些对早期阶段感兴趣的人。

Lenny: That's a really interesting insight that you think you're building this huge network from a big company you're working at and it may not be the network you need when you want to start a company.

莱尼：这是一个非常有趣的见解，你认为你正在从你正在工作的一家大公司建立这个巨大的网络，但当你想创办一家公司时，它可能不是你需要的网络。

Do you have any other pieces of advice for a founder that's like, "Hey, I want to start a company in the future in the next few years, let's say at Facebook or Google"?

您对创始人还有其他建议吗？例如，“嘿，我想在未来几年内创办一家公司，比如说 Facebook 或 Google”？

Any other things you think they could be doing now to set themselves up for success?

您认为他们现在还可以做其他事情来为自己的成功做好准备吗？

Ravi Mehta: I think it's important to plug into an early stage network as soon as possible.

Ravi Mehta：我认为尽快接入早期网络非常重要。

There's a bunch of different ways to do that today.

今天有很多不同的方法可以做到这一点。

There's communities that are focused on founder dating, there's communities focused on just being a place where founders can spend time.

有些社区专注于创始人约会，有些社区专注于成为创始人可以消磨时间的地方。

There's a great community of people in the indie hacker community and a few other related communities.

独立黑客社区和其他一些相关社区中有一个很棒的社区。

And so I think it's important to connect with folks that are builders that are excited about entrepreneurship both on the development side and the operations side, as well as on the investment side.

因此，我认为与那些对开发、运营以及投资方面的创业精神感到兴奋的建设者建立联系非常重要。

Connecting with angels and investors who are seeing what's happening within earlier stage companies.

与了解早期公司正在发生的事情的天使和投资者建立联系。

What are the things that are top of mind?

最重要的事情是什么？

What are the technology trends that people are really taking advantage of?

人们真正利用的技术趋势是什么？

Ravi Mehta: Another really interesting, I think, difference is the way that you market and grow for an early stage company is very different than how you might market or grow for a later stage company where you have much larger budgets.

拉维·梅塔：我认为另一个非常有趣的区别是，为早期阶段的公司进行营销和发展的方式与为预算更大的后期公司进行营销和发展的方式非常不同。

And so the people that might be great at building out marketing campaigns at a larger company are going to be very different than the people who are more sort of earlier stage.

因此，在大公司中擅长开展营销活动的人将与处于早期阶段的人有很大不同。

More hackers that are looking at.

更多的黑客正在关注。

There's these really interesting new channels of distribution that you can take advantage of or interesting techniques on TikTok or interesting SEO techniques that you can take advantage of.

您可以利用这些非常有趣的新分销渠道，或者您可以利用 TikTok 上有趣的技术或有趣的 SEO 技术。

So it's really two different networks as well as two different bases of knowledge.

所以这实际上是两个不同的网络以及两个不同的知识基础。

And so I think it's important for people that want to eventually found something to work on fostering that network so that you can connect into that community at the moment that you're ready to make that leap.

因此，我认为对于那些希望最终找到一些东西来促进该网络的人们来说很重要，这样您就可以在准备好实现这一飞跃时连接到该社区。

Lenny: Are there any other specific communities that come to mind as places that either you found valuable or that you think are worth checking on for folks that are like, "Cool, indie hackers.

Lenny：有没有其他特定的社区让您觉得有价值，或者您认为值得为“酷炫的独立黑客”之类的人检查。

I'll check that out"?

我会检查一下”？

Is there anything else that comes to mind as a really good place to spend some time right now?

现在还有什么地方是值得消磨时光的好地方吗？

Ravi Mehta: Yeah, I think two of the best communities are the indie hacker community.

Ravi Mehta：是的，我认为最好的两个社区是独立黑客社区。

What I really like about that is it's a lot of people who are thinking about how do I build something solo?

我真正喜欢的是，很多人都在思考我如何单独构建一些东西？

And that's really different from being at a larger company.

这与在大公司工作确实不同。

If you can think about a spectrum of you have a larger company, somewhere in the middle, you have VC-backed startups where you can take some of the ways of thinking about things that you learn at a bigger company and apply it because you have the ability to invest a significant amount of resources.

如果你能想象一下你拥有一家更大的公司，在中间的某个地方，你有风投支持的初创公司，你可以采用一些在大公司学到的思考方式并应用它，因为你有能力投资大量资源。

And then at the opposite side, there's one person who's got a dream.

而在另一边，有一个人有一个梦想。

They want to start something.

他们想要开始一些事情。

They're trying to figure out how to do everything themselves.

他们试图弄清楚如何自己做所有事情。

They're entirely generalists in terms of being both builders and sellers, as well as figuring out all the logistics.

无论是作为建筑商还是卖家，以及解决所有的物流问题，他们都是完全的多面手。

So I like the indie hacker community.

所以我喜欢独立黑客社区。

Ravi Mehta: Another really good community is Everything Marketplaces.

Ravi Mehta：另一个非常好的社区是 Everything Marketplaces。

Mike, the founder of that community, has just done a fantastic job of bringing together a set of founders.

该社区的创始人迈克刚刚出色地召集了一批创始人。

He's specifically focused on marketplace businesses, which have some unique dynamics to them, especially in the very early stage.

他特别关注市场业务，这些业务具有一些独特的动态，尤其是在早期阶段。

But it's a great example of even if you're not into marketplaces, I think it's worth looking at what they're creating, the events that they're running, and the people that are involved.

但这是一个很好的例子，即使你不涉足市场，我认为也值得看看他们正在创造什么、他们正在举办的活动以及参与其中的人。

They've just done a great job of curating that whole experience to provide a really great foundation for founders.

他们刚刚在策划整个体验方面做得很好，为创始人提供了一个非常好的基础。

Lenny: I'm also a huge fan of the community.

Lenny：我也是这个社区的忠实粉丝。

I love Mike.

我爱迈克。

We're internet friends.

我们是网友。

He'll love hearing this.

他会喜欢听这个的。

I think the site is everythingmarketplaces.com to check out the community.

我认为该网站是 everythingmarketplaces.com，可以查看社区。

And if it's not, you can just Google it.

如果不是，你可以用谷歌搜索一下。

We'll also put in the show notes.

我们还将添加演出笔记。

Lenny: So Reforge, you brought it up a couple times, and this kind of gets to what I want to spend the meat of our conversation around.

Lenny：所以 Reforge，你提过几次了，这正是我想要讨论的重点。

You built the Reforge product leadership program, the product strategy program.

您制定了 Reforge 产品领导计划、产品战略计划。

So those are two areas you spend a lot of time thinking about product leadership, product strategy.

因此，这是您花费大量时间思考产品领导力和产品战略的两个领域。

Lenny: So starting with product strategy.

莱尼：所以从产品策略开始。

Every PM, every founder, every leader would say that they want to get better at strategy.

每一位产品经理、每一位创始人、每一位领导者都会说他们希望在战略方面做得更好。

I guarantee if I ask every PM, do you want to get better product strategy?

我保证如果我问每一位PM，你们想要得到更好的产品策略吗？

A hundred percent would say absolutely.

百分之一百会说绝对。

But it's this very mushy, vague, general idea of strategy.

但这是一种非常糊涂、模糊、笼统的战略理念。

I'm going to get better at strategy.

我会在策略方面变得更好。

I'm going to be better.

我会变得更好。

I'm going to be more strategic.

我会变得更有策略性。

You have this really cool kind of framework, mental model that you call the product strategy stack.

你有一个非常酷的框架，你称之为产品策略堆栈的心智模型。

And so I want to spend a little time on just talking about what is this concept and how does it help you think about strategy, mission, vision, all these things and how these things play together.

所以我想花一点时间来谈谈这个概念是什么，以及它如何帮助你思考战略、使命、愿景，所有这些东西以及这些东西如何一起发挥作用。

So let's just start with what is the product strategy stack?

那么我们先来了解一下什么是产品策略堆栈？

Ravi Mehta: The goal of the product strategy stack is to help people take a set of terms that are normally conflated together, like goals, roadmap, strategy, and separate them into really clearly defined parts.

Ravi Mehta：产品策略堆栈的目标是帮助人们将一组通常混为一谈的术语（例如目标、路线图、策略）分成真正明确定义的部分。

And the reason I first started using this concept is I would often have PMs come to me and they wouldn't know whether to decide between doing A or B.

我第一次开始使用这个概念的原因是，我经常会有产品经理来找我，他们不知道是在做 A 还是 B 之间做出决定。

So it might be that there's two features, they're roughly the same opportunity size, and they wouldn't know whether or not they should execute the first feature or execute the second feature.

因此，可能有两个功能，它们的机会大小大致相同，并且他们不知道是否应该执行第一个功能或执行第二个功能。

Ravi Mehta: And more often than not, when I talked to teams and helped to debug that issue, what it came down to was that there wasn't a deep enough understanding of what the strategy is.

拉维·梅塔：通常，当我与团队交谈并帮助调试这个问题时，归根结底是对策略的理解不够深入。

So what is the framework that should actually inform that prioritization?

那么真正应该告知优先级的框架是什么？

And so oftentimes I was seeing difficulty prioritizing as well as tactical issues surface in the day-to-day and be able to be tracked back to pretty fundamental gaps in terms of an individual PM's understanding of strategy.

我经常看到日常工作中难以确定优先顺序以及战术问题，并且能够追溯到个别产品经理对战略的理解方面的相当基本的差距。

And oftentimes those gaps were not just because the person might not understand the strategy, it may also be because the strategy hasn't been completely defined.

通常，这些差距不仅是因为该人可能不理解该策略，还可能是因为该策略尚未完全定义。

Ravi Mehta: And so the private strategy stack is a system that helps people understand what framework they're using in order to make decisions and what's going to drive value for the business.

Ravi Mehta：因此，私有策略堆栈是一个系统，可以帮助人们了解他们正在使用什么框架来做出决策，以及什么可以为业务带来价值。

So the top of the stack is the company mission and the company mission is the change the company wants to bring to the world.

因此，最顶层的是公司使命，而公司使命就是公司想要给世界带来的改变。

It's really a qualitative aspirational statement of what is the company's purpose.

这确实是公司宗旨的定性理想陈述。

And in some cases it might not be a company, it might be a particular team within a company or it might be a particular subsidiary depending on the environment you're in.

在某些情况下，它可能不是一家公司，也可能是公司内的特定团队，或者可能是特定的子公司，具体取决于您所处的环境。

But it's basically the overarching mission that helps to guide the process of moving forward.

但这基本上是有助于指导前进过程的总体使命。

Ravi Mehta: The second thing is strategy.

拉维·梅塔：第二件事是战略。

So whereas a mission is aspirational, strategy is rigorously logical.

因此，虽然使命是有抱负的，但战略却是严格符合逻辑的。

The strategy is the logical plan that your company's going to use to bring that mission into being.

该战略是您的公司将用来实现该使命的逻辑计划。

And so it's got to be very specific, it's got to be very rigorous, and it's basically the approach of the plan that the company will use to make progress on achieving its mission.

因此，它必须非常具体，必须非常严格，而且它基本上是公司在实现其使命方面取得进展所采用的计划方法。

And so the mission and the strategy at the company level really define what is the company trying to accomplish.

因此，公司层面的使命和战略真正定义了公司想要实现的目标。

And so the next level of the strategy stack is the product strategy.

因此，战略堆栈的下一个层次是产品战略。

And the product strategy is the connective tissue between what is the company trying to accomplish and what are the day-to-day things that the product team is doing.

产品策略是公司想要实现的目标和产品团队正在做的日常工作之间的结缔组织。

And so underneath the product strategy, the product strategy informs a roadmap and the roadmap ultimately informs the goals.

因此，在产品战略之下，产品战略告知路线图，而路线图最终告知目标。

Ravi Mehta: And so those five pieces, the company mission, the company strategy, the product strategy, the product roadmap, and the product goals all work together as a system where if a PM is looking to define strategy, they can work top to bottom, and if they're looking to debug strategy, they can actually work bottom to top.

Ravi Mehta：公司使命、公司战略、产品战略、产品路线图和产品目标这五个部分作为一个系统一起工作，如果产品经理想要定义战略，他们可以从上到下工作，如果他们想要调试战略，他们实际上可以从下到上工作。

And so if you're having trouble meeting your goals, it might be because the roadmap isn't set up so that it can help move those goals forward.

因此，如果您在实现目标方面遇到困难，可能是因为路线图尚未制定，无法帮助您实现这些目标。

If the roadmap isn't right, it might be because the product strategy hasn't been really clearly articulated.

如果路线图不正确，可能是因为产品策略尚未真正清晰地阐明。

If the product strategy isn't right, it might be because the team doesn't understand deeply enough what the company's strategy is, how the product fits into it, and ultimately the company's mission that it's trying to make progress on.

如果产品战略不正确，可能是因为团队没有足够深入地了解公司的战略是什么、产品如何适应战略以及最终试图取得进展的公司使命。

Lenny: Super cool.

莱尼：超级酷。

I have a bunch of questions.

我有很多问题。

One is, interestingly, vision doesn't come up in the stack.

有趣的是，其中之一是愿景并没有出现在堆栈中。

Does it roll...

滚动了吗...

Lenny: ...

莱尼：……

into one of these?

进入其中之一？

Or do you just no vision necessary?

或者你只是不需要视力？

Ravi Mehta: I think about vision as part of mission.

拉维·梅塔：我认为愿景是使命的一部分。

Ravi Mehta: I always get confused about what the difference is between vision and mission.

拉维·梅塔：我总是对愿景和使命之间的区别感到困惑。

And so when I was originally working on this, there was a version of this that had the mission and the vision together.

因此，当我最初从事此工作时，有一个将使命和愿景结合在一起的版本。

There were versions that kept it separate.

有些版本将其分开。

Often what I've heard of as the distinction is the vision is sort of the vision that the company sees for the future, and then the mission is the mission that the company has in light of that vision.

我经常听到的区别是，愿景是公司对未来的愿景，而使命是公司根据该愿景所承担的使命。

And I think you can really bring those two together and you can both describe that world and the role that the company plays in a single statement.

我认为你真的可以将这两者结合在一起，你可以在一份声明中描述这个世界和公司所扮演的角色。

And that's usually enough to make progress and help to start to define the strategy.

这通常足以取得进展并有助于开始定义策略。

Ravi Mehta: But I know you've written about this as well and you've put a spotlight on vision.

拉维·梅塔：但我知道你也写过这方面的文章，并且你把焦点放在了视觉上。

So I'd be curious as to how you see the mission and the vision playing together.

所以我很好奇你如何看待使命和愿景一起发挥作用。

Lenny: Yeah.

莱尼：是的。

I think the most important thing is people just get stuck on these and try to define them and make them perfect.

我认为最重要的是人们坚持这些并试图定义它们并使它们变得完美。

And I think the most important thing is just don't overthink it.

我认为最重要的是不要想太多。

Just put something that sounds right and people are excited about it in a .

只要把一些听起来正确的东西放在一个中，人们就会对此感到兴奋。

That's the most important thing.

这是最重要的事情。

The way I think about it is mission is just like what are you trying to achieve in the world?

我对使命的看法就像你想在世界上实现什么目标一样？

And then the vision is what is the world look like once you've achieved it?

然后，愿景是一旦你实现了它，世界会是什么样子？

What is the vision of the future?

未来的愿景是什么？

And the mission is what are you trying to do in this future?

使命是你在未来想做什么？

So that's the way I think about it.

这就是我的想法。

What are you trying to do?

你想做什么？

What does it look like?

它看起来像什么？

But I think keeping it as one thing is great.

但我认为将其作为一件事保持不变是很棒的。

Like whatever works.

就像任何有效的事情一样。

There's no one way to do it.

没有一种方法可以做到这一点。

Lenny: I also know that you're a big believer in the vision when you think about a vision and define a vision, making it very visual versus just like a doc.

莱尼：我还知道，当你思考一个愿景并定义一个愿景时，你会非常相信这个愿景，使其非常直观，而不是像一个文档那样。

Can you talk about that?

你能谈谈吗？

Ravi Mehta: This framework originally started when I was at Tripadvisor and we had to develop a plan for what we wanted the strategy to be for trip planning.

Ravi Mehta：这个框架最初是在我在 Tripadvisor 工作时开始的，我们必须根据我们想要的旅行规划策略制定一个计划。

This was going to be a really big new feature for the company and for product.

对于公司和产品来说，这将是一个非常重要的新功能。

Trip planning is one of these intractable problems or been a number of startups that started as trip planning startups and nobody had really nailed it.

旅行计划是这些棘手的问题之一，或者是许多初创公司以旅行计划初创公司开始的，但没有人真正解决这个问题。

Google at the time had a trip planning app that had some interesting elements to it, but it wasn't really clear that they were nailing it.

谷歌当时有一个旅行计划应用程序，其中有一些有趣的元素，但目前还不清楚他们是否正在完善它。

And so we knew that there was both a really valuable problem to solve here, but also a really difficult problem.

因此我们知道，这里不仅有一个非常有价值的问题需要解决，而且也是一个非常困难的问题。

And we wanted to take an end-to-end approach to solving for this where rather than just kind of working bottoms up and getting to things experimentally where we might not actually ladder up to a clear product strategy, we had said we wanted to work top down, define what do we want to achieve, how we're going to achieve it, and what are the incremental steps we're going to use to get there.

我们希望采取端到端的方法来解决这个问题，而不是仅仅自下而上地工作并通过实验来解决我们实际上可能无法达到清晰的产品战略的问题，我们说过我们想要自上而下地工作，定义我们想要实现什么，我们将如何实现它，以及我们将使用哪些渐进步骤来实现这一目标。

Ravi Mehta: And one of the things that we said with stake that we put in the ground was the strategy doc wouldn't be complete without wireframes.

拉维·梅塔：我们说过的一件事是，如果没有线框图，战略文档就不会完整。

This was the first time that we were doing that in the context of strategy.

这是我们第一次在战略背景下这样做。

And the thing that we were really trying to solve for is the fact that oftentimes when you talk about strategy in words alone, everyone takes away a different interpretation of that strategy, whereas when you actually can show people wireframes of what the product will look like when that strategy is implemented, it creates much more alignment.

我们真正想要解决的问题是，通常当你仅用语言谈论策略时，每个人都会对该策略有不同的解释，而当你实际上可以向人们展示该策略实施时产品的线框图时，它会产生更多的一致性。

Ravi Mehta: And so the analogy I like to use, it's a little bit like working with an architect.

拉维·梅塔：我喜欢用的比喻是，这有点像与建筑师合作。

You would never work with an architect that didn't provide you a blueprint of the house that they want to build for you because being able to describe a house in words alone is not enough.

如果建筑师没有为您提供他们想要为您建造的房屋的蓝图，您永远不会与他们合作，因为仅用语言描述房屋是不够的。

Everyone will come away from that with sort of a different interpretation of what is needed.

每个人都会对需要什么有不同的解释。

But once you can see the blueprint, and the blueprint doesn't need to be high fidelity, it's a conceptual framework that shows you how things are laid out, it helps you understand how the pieces are going to come together.

但是，一旦您可以看到蓝图，并且蓝图不需要高保真度，它就是一个概念框架，向您展示事物的布局方式，它可以帮助您了解各个部分如何组合在一起。

And most products are ultimately rendered in terms of visuals.

大多数产品最终都是以视觉效果呈现的。

They're pixels on a screen.

它们是屏幕上的像素。

And so it's important for you to understand how are those pixels going to be organized.

因此，了解这些像素如何组织对您来说很重要。

Ravi Mehta: I think an interesting litmus test question for this is, and a lot of mobile apps can only have four or five things on their nav bar.

Ravi Mehta：我认为一个有趣的试金石问题是，许多移动应用程序的导航栏上只能有四到五个内容。

What are the four or five things?

什么是四五事呢？

If you just describe your strategy in words, people might come up with one nav bar that's completely different than another nav bar.

如果您只是用文字描述您的策略，人们可能会想出一个与另一个导航栏完全不同的导航栏。

And as a result, you then find that the moment that you're implementing your mobile app, that there's completely different perceptions of what's valuable to the company and how the functionality should be organized.

结果，您会发现在实施移动应用程序的那一刻，对于什么对公司有价值以及功能应该如何组织存在完全不同的看法。

And so the process of setting your strategy and then defining it really crisply in wireframes helps to get really specific and concrete about what it is that you're building, what's going to fulfill the strategy, and what are some of the trade-offs that you need to make in order to bring that into fruition because there's always going to be a limited number of pixels on the screen.

因此，设定策略然后在线框图中清晰地定义它的过程有助于真正具体地了解您正在构建的内容、将实现该策略的内容以及为了实现该策略而需要做出的一些权衡，因为屏幕上的像素数量总是有限的。

Lenny: Imagine PMs listening to this might feel.

Lenny：想象一下产品经理听到这句话可能会有什么感觉。

"Okay, yes, I would love wireframes in all of my vision documents, full fidelity designs of everything I want to do.

“好吧，是的，我希望我所有的愿景文档中都有线框图，我想做的一切都具有完全保真度的设计。

Here's what I'm doing." I imagine they often don't have a designer available, they don't have lists together for some review that's coming up.

这就是我正在做的事情。”我想他们通常没有可用的设计师，他们没有一起列出一些即将进行的审查。

What do you suggest to these folks?

您对这些人有什么建议？

Is it like as a PM, just sketch it out briefly is something better than nothing?

是不是就像作为一个PM，简单地勾画一下就比什么都没有好？

What do you suggest for when there's like just not anyone to help them do this well?

当没有人帮助他们做好这件事时，你有什么建议？

Ravi Mehta: I think it's great if you're able to work with a designer, but I also think it's really important for PMs to understand design, to understand UX and UI.

Ravi Mehta：我认为如果你能够与设计师一起工作那就太好了，但我也认为对于产品经理来说，了解设计、了解用户体验和用户界面非常重要。

You can always just sketch things on paper if you don't have design skills.

如果您没有设计技能，您总是可以在纸上画草图。

I've also, time and time again throughout my career, I've gone back to Balsamiq, which is a really good wireframing tool.

在我的职业生涯中，我也一次又一次地回到 Balsamiq，这是一个非常好的线框图工具。

It's been around for a while.

它已经存在了一段时间了。

It's incredibly fast to work with, and often in an afternoon you can create a set of very high level conceptual wireframes that you can put in front of people that will give them a much clearer understanding of what it is you're trying to build than if you were just to share them with them a spec that is words alone.

使用它的速度非常快，通常在一个下午，您就可以创建一组非常高级的概念线框图，并将其放在人们面前，这将使他们更清楚地了解您正在尝试构建的内容，而不是仅仅与他们分享一个仅是文字的规范。

Ravi Mehta: So I would suggest learn how to sketch, learn Balsamiq.

Ravi Mehta：所以我建议学习如何素描，学习 Balsamiq。

Having that ability to think at a conceptual level about how UI and UX works is I think a critical part of being a product manager.

我认为，拥有从概念层面思考 UI 和 UX 如何工作的能力是作为产品经理的关键部分。

And if it's a skill that you don't have today, there's great resources to be able to work on that skill.

如果这是您现在不具备的技能，那么有大量资源可以帮助您掌握该技能。

And I think it'll make you feel a lot more empowered as a product manager as well if you don't need to feel like you've got to depend on a designer to help you visually think through your product each and every time.

我认为，如果您不需要每次都需要依赖设计师来帮助您直观地思考您的产品，那么作为产品经理，您也会感到更有权力。

Lenny: Okay.

莱尼：好的。

So coming back to the product strategy stack, can you share an example of a company you worked at and how that stack kind of all played out?

那么回到产品策略堆栈，您能否分享一个您工作过的公司的例子以及该堆栈是如何发挥作用的？

Like an example, and just to come back to its mission strategy, product strategy, roadmap, goals.

举个例子，回到它的使命战略、产品战略、路线图和目标。

And while you're talking, I'm going to try something new.

当你说话的时候，我会尝试一些新的东西。

I'm going to pull up a window that shows your visual of this thing and it'll show up I think in my screen.

我将打开一个窗口，显示您对这个东西的视觉效果，我认为它会显示在我的屏幕上。

Look at that.

看看那个。

And so if you're on YouTube.

如果您使用 YouTube，也是如此。

Or you can actually watch these videos on Spotify now in case yet people that are listening have notice...

或者你现在就可以在 Spotify 上观看这些视频，以防正在收听的人注意到......

Lenny: ...

莱尼：……

new feature they just unlocked for my podcast or these videos are on Spotify.

他们刚刚为我的播客解锁了新功能，或者这些视频在 Spotify 上。

So cool opportunity to check it out on Spotify or YouTube.

这是在 Spotify 或 YouTube 上查看的绝佳机会。

But let me come back to you with the question.

但让我带着问题回到你身边。

Basically, is there an example you could share maybe from Tinder or Facebook or something like that of the product strategy stack in action?

基本上，您是否可以分享一个来自 Tinder 或 Facebook 的示例，或者类似正在实施的产品策略堆栈的示例？

Ravi Mehta: So the article itself has an example, which I won't go through now, of Slack versus Discord.

Ravi Mehta：所以这篇文章本身有一个 Slack 与 Discord 的例子，我现在不会讲这个例子。

I think that's a really interesting example because the products are so similar and yet the company strategies and the missions are so different.

我认为这是一个非常有趣的例子，因为产品非常相似，但公司的战略和使命却截然不同。

They're serving incredibly different audiences despite the fact that many of the items on those teams roadmaps are likely the same.

尽管这些团队路线图上的许多项目可能是相同的，但他们为不同的受众提供服务。

Threading, reactions, channels, video chat, things of that sort.

话题、反应、频道、视频聊天等等。

I think a really interesting example from my past life is comparing Tinder versus Hinge.

我认为我过去生活中的一个非常有趣的例子是将 Tinder 与 Hinge 进行比较。

Ravi Mehta: Both of them are dating apps, but they have missions that are really different.

Ravi Mehta：它们都是约会应用程序，但它们的使命确实不同。

So Hinge's mission is almost created in response to Tinder.

所以Hinge的使命几乎就是为了响应Tinder而创建的。

Hinge's mission is designed to be deleted.

Hinge的使命是被设计来删除的。

This is something that is prevalent throughout all of the marketing, which is, come to our app, we know that if our app works for you, you're going to find someone, you're going to kick off a long-term relationship and you're going to delete our app.

这是整个营销中普遍存在的事情，也就是说，来到我们的应用程序，我们知道如果我们的应用程序适合您，您就会找到某人，您将开始建立长期关系，并且您将删除我们的应用程序。

And we consider that a success, versus Tinder's mission is really to make single life more fun.

我们认为，与 Tinder 的使命相比，它的成功实际上是让单身生活变得更有趣。

Tinder's mission is to be an app that's on people's phone whenever they're single and often throughout their 20s and into their early 30s.

Tinder 的使命是成为人们在单身时（通常是 20 多岁到 30 岁出头）手机上使用的应用程序。

And so those missions are really different.

所以这些任务确实不同。

One is a temporary use case, the other is a continuous use case.

一种是临时用例，另一种是连续用例。

And so despite the fact that they're serving the same underlying use case, which is to help people meet each other, they have very different missions.

因此，尽管它们服务于相同的底层用例，即帮助人们互相认识，但它们的使命却截然不同。

Ravi Mehta: The company strategies are also pretty different.

拉维·梅塔：公司的战略也有很大不同。

They have some similarity around how the apps are monetized.

它们在应用程序的盈利方式方面有一些相似之处。

Both apps are freemium.

这两个应用程序都是免费增值的。

You can use the product for free.

您可以免费使用该产品。

And then there's particular features that are monetized.

然后还有一些可以货币化的特定功能。

The features that are monetized share some commonality.

货币化的功能有一些共性。

So there's some commonality in terms of monetization model.

因此，在盈利模式方面存在一些共性。

There's a really big difference in terms of customer acquisition model.

在客户获取模式方面存在很大的差异。

Hinge relies a lot on television ads that helps them reach the audience that is likely to use their product.

Hinge 在很大程度上依赖电视广告来帮助他们吸引可能使用其产品的受众。

Tinder relies much more on influencer marketing and event-based marketing.

Tinder 更多地依赖影响者营销和基于事件的营销。

So there's some interesting similarities between the companies in terms of their strategies and some interesting and important differences.

因此，这些公司在战略方面存在一些有趣的相似之处，也有一些有趣且重要的差异。

Ravi Mehta: The product strategies for Tinder and Hinge are actually really different.

Ravi Mehta：Tinder 和 Hinge 的产品策略实际上非常不同。

So Tinder was the original swipe-based dating app.

所以 Tinder 是最初的基于滑动的约会应用程序。

It was built to be a really lightweight experience where swiping is really fast, getting into a match is really easy, chatting is really easy.

它被打造为一种真正轻量级的体验，滑动非常快，进入比赛非常容易，聊天非常容易。

And Hinge is one of the first really successful post swipe dating apps.

Hinge 是第一个真正成功的滑动后约会应用程序之一。

So they deliberately did not build a product around the mechanic of swiping.

因此，他们故意不围绕滑动机制构建产品。

Instead, they wanted people to spend more time on each other's profiles.

相反，他们希望人们花更多的时间在彼此的个人资料上。

They wanted to create more tools for those profiles.

他们希望为这些配置文件创建更多工具。

So Tinder profiles are very simple.

所以 Tinder 个人资料非常简单。

Hinge profiles have prongs.

铰链型材有尖头。

Those prongs allow people to get to know each other.

这些尖头可以让人们互相了解。

That sparks interesting conversations, that leads to deeper conversations that ultimately leads to long-term relationships.

这会引发有趣的对话，从而引发更深入的对话，最终形成长期的关系。

And so because of that difference in product strategy, there's some differences in product roadmap, but there's also some similarity in product roadmap.

因此，由于产品策略的差异，产品路线图存在一些差异，但产品路线图也有一些相似之处。

Both Tinder and Hinge made a significant investment in video chat post pandemic, knowing that people were going to spend a lot more time online before they met in person.

Tinder 和 Hinge 都在疫情后对视频聊天进行了大量投资，因为他们知道人们在面对面见面之前会花更多时间上网。

And so as a result, they needed to enable people to talk with each other via video within the product.

因此，他们需要让人们能够通过产品内的视频相互交谈。

[NEW_PARAGRAPH]And then the last piece is on goals.

[NEW_PARAGRAPH]最后一部分是关于目标的。

So ultimately both companies have very similar goals in terms of they measure success based on meaningful conversations.

因此，最终两家公司在根据有意义的对话衡量成功方面有着非常相似的目标。

So they want people to match, they want people to chat with each other, but the specific product mechanics that enable people to get into those conversations are different.

因此，他们希望人们能够匹配，他们希望人们互相聊天，但是使人们能够参与这些对话的具体产品机制是不同的。

So the high level product goals are really similar.

因此，高层产品目标非常相似。

Some of the more detailed product goals are really different.

一些更详细的产品目标确实不同。

And so using the strategy stack, you can get a really good feel for where strategy is informing particular decisions and when a decision should look like competitors and when a decision should be different than what one of your competitors or comparables is doing.

因此，使用策略堆栈，您可以很好地了解策略在哪些方面为特定决策提供信息，何时决策应与竞争对手相似，何时决策应与竞争对手或同类公司的做法不同。

Lenny: I have so many questions about Tinder.

Lenny：我对 Tinder 有很多疑问。

It feels it's such an interesting company and journey and product.

感觉这是一家非常有趣的公司、旅程和产品。

I guess one question is you shared some examples of product features that you built because of the specific strategy.

我想一个问题是您分享了一些由于特定策略而构建的产品功能示例。

Is there any others that come to mind of just like, we built this thing and Hinge would never build it because we have such different strategies?

是否还有其他人会想到，我们建造了这个东西，但 Hinge 永远不会建造它，因为我们有如此不同的策略？

Ravi Mehta: There's a counter example, which I think is really interesting, which is almost every dating app has filters and a whole set of filters.

Ravi Mehta：有一个反例，我认为这非常有趣，几乎每个约会应用程序都有过滤器和一整套过滤器。

So you can filter based on occupation, income, religion, height, smoking preference.

因此，您可以根据职业、收入、宗教、身高、吸烟偏好进行过滤。

And Tinder, it's now got some ability to filter, but for the large part has resisted the urge to put those filters into place.

而 Tinder，现在也有了一定的过滤能力，但在很大程度上，它抵制了将这些过滤器安装到位的冲动。

And the reason was from a product philosophy standpoint, they wanted people to get to know each other and chat rather than to feel like Tinder's a search engine for people where you plug in a bunch of criteria, you can go into that specific filtered list, and then meet only the people that you want to meet.

原因是从产品理念的角度来看，他们希望人们能够互相了解并聊天，而不是感觉 Tinder 是一个搜索引擎，你可以在其中插入一堆标准，你可以进入特定的过滤列表，然后只结识你想结识的人。

Ravi Mehta: And that really reflects in the product as well.

拉维·梅塔：这也确实反映在产品中。

A lot of people like using that product because they meet people that they say they never would've met otherwise.

很多人喜欢使用该产品，因为他们遇到了他们说否则永远不会遇到的人。

Because if they were given the ability to put their criteria in, of course they're going to put their criteria in and they're going to look at a filtered, narrower set of people.

因为如果他们有能力提出自己的标准，他们当然会提出自己的标准，并且会考虑经过筛选的、范围更窄的人群。

And so by keeping the product experience really lightweight, really serendipitous, they were able to create a way of meeting each other that's really different than the other dating products, which are more of those search engines for people.

因此，通过保持产品体验真正的轻量级、真正的偶然性，他们能够创造出一种与其他约会产品完全不同的见面方式，而其他约会产品更多的是为人们提供搜索引擎。

Lenny: When you think back on your time at Tinder, what's like a memory or story or wild experience that comes to mind if there's something that comes to mind?

Lenny：当你回想起在 Tinder 的时光时，如果有什么事情浮现在你的脑海中，你会想起什么记忆、故事或狂野的经历？

Ravi Mehta: So Tinder was always interesting in terms of product discovery.

Ravi Mehta：所以 Tinder 在产品发现方面一直很有趣。

We did a lot of focus groups when I was there.

我在那里的时候我们做了很多焦点小组。

We had people talk about their preferences around dating both one-on-one and ending groups, and those always led to really interesting conversations.

我们让人们谈论他们对一对一约会和结束团体约会的偏好，这些总是会引发非常有趣的对话。

One of the things that to me was the most surprising is when I was there, we noticed that there was a small set of Tinder that were spending a lot on Tinder.

对我来说最令人惊讶的事情之一是，当我在那里时，我们注意到有一小部分 Tinder 在 Tinder 上花了很多钱。

And so you'll often see this behavior in social games where you have users that are essentially whales, who your average ARPU might be $30 and a whale is spending $200 or $300.

因此，您经常会在社交游戏中看到这种行为，您的用户本质上是鲸鱼，您的平均 ARPU 可能为 30 美元，而鲸鱼的消费为 200 或 300 美元。

And so we noticed that a really significant percentage of a la carte revenue, which is microtransactions, was coming from a very small single digit percentage of users.

因此我们注意到，点菜收入（即微交易）的很大一部分来自于非常小的个位数百分比的用户。

And when we looked at how much people were spending, our hypothesis was these must be high net worth people that are looking to flaunt their wealth and they don't really care about the money.

当我们观察人们的支出时，我们的假设是这些人一定是高净值人群，他们想要炫耀自己的财富，但他们并不真正关心钱。

Lenny: What are they spending on, by the way, just to make that clear, because it's been a long time since I've tried with Tinder.

Lenny：顺便说一句，他们在哪些方面花了什么钱，只是为了澄清这一点，因为我已经很长时间没有尝试使用 Tinder 了。

What are you buying in Tinder?

你在 Tinder 上买什么？

What are the microtransactions?

什么是微交易？

Ravi Mehta: Yeah, so Tinder's monetization model has two pieces to it.

Ravi Mehta：是的，Tinder 的盈利模式有两个部分。

It's got a subscription.

它有订阅。

There's a couple of different tiers to the subscription.

订阅有几个不同的级别。

There's a base subscription called Tinder Plus.

有一个名为 Tinder Plus 的基本订阅。

And then there's the default subscription or the main subscription called Tinder Gold.

然后是默认订阅或称为 Tinder Gold 的主要订阅。

And Tinder Gold, the advantage of Tinder Gold is it essentially allows you to break the rules of Tinder.

而Tinder Gold，Tinder Gold的优势在于它本质上可以让你打破Tinder的规则。

So Tinder, normally you can't see who swiped on you and you're only going to match with someone if you swiped right on them and they've swiped right on you.

所以 Tinder，通常你看不到谁在你身上滑动，只有当你向右滑动某人并且他们也向右滑动你时，你才会与某人匹配。

Tinder Gold allows you to see all of the people who have swiped right on you, so you can go through those people and determine do you want to match with them.

Tinder Gold 允许您查看所有直接向您滑动的人，因此您可以浏览这些人并确定您是否要与他们匹配。

So really important sort of fundamental capability that people are willing to pay for.

人们愿意为之付费的基本功能非常重要。

Ravi Mehta: On top of that, there's a set of a la carte products where you can buy...

Ravi Mehta：除此之外，还有一套点菜产品可供您购买……

You can essentially buy them in bulk.

您基本上可以批量购买它们。

You can use one of them.

您可以使用其中之一。

You can buy multiple of them.

您可以购买多个。

The two primary ones are super like.

两个主要的非常像。

So super like allows you to send a super like to an individual person.

所以超级喜欢允许您向个人发送超级喜欢。

If you send that super like, they're three times more likely to match with you.

如果您发送超级赞，他们与您匹配的可能性就会增加三倍。

So it's a really good way, in a very targeted way, say that you want to meet and match with someone.

所以这是一个非常好的方式，以非常有针对性的方式，说你想与某人见面并匹配。

Ravi Mehta: The other product is boost.

Ravi Mehta：另一个产品是Boost。

And so boost works the same way that Facebook boost works or any other boost product works where your profile is going to show up a certain amount of times within the feed.

因此，Boost 的工作方式与 Facebook boost 或任何其他 boost 产品的工作方式相同，您的个人资料将在 feed 中显示一定的次数。

If you pay to boost it, it will show up more often.

如果你付费来提升它，它会更频繁地出现。

And so what we noticed was that there was a set of people that were spending hundreds of dollars a month on boost and super like.

所以我们注意到有一群人每个月在 boost 和 super like 上花费数百美元。

Let's just identify some of these users, put together a usability study and start to talk to some of them and understand why they're using Tinder and that why and why they're willing to spend so much money.

让我们找出其中一些用户，进行可用性研究，并开始与其中一些用户交谈，了解他们为什么使用 Tinder 以及他们愿意花这么多钱的原因。

Ravi Mehta: And so what we found was actually it was very different than what we had assumed.

拉维·梅塔：所以我们发现它实际上与我们的假设有很大不同。

It was essentially people saying, "I really want to meet someone." They have a use case.

本质上，人们在说：“我真的很想见一个人。”他们有一个用例。

So sometimes these were folks that were in the military, so they were moving around a lot, or they were sales folks, they were often in different cities, or they were someone that was new to a particular city.

有时这些人是军队里的人，所以他们经常走动，或者他们是销售人员，他们经常在不同的城市，或者他们是某个特定城市的新人。

And it wasn't that they were higher net worth.

这并不是说他们的净资产更高。

They weren't earning any more than the average Tinder user.

他们的收入并不比 Tinder 用户的平均收入高。

They just had a much more intense use case.

他们只是有一个更强烈的用例。

They wanted to meet someone.

他们想见一个人。

And what they were framing the cost of Tinder on was not the cost of other subscriptions.

他们制定 Tinder 成本的依据并不是其他订阅的成本。

They were framing it on the cost of dating.

他们将其归结为约会的成本。

And they were saying, "If I go on a few dates a month, that's probably a couple hundred dollars." Anyway, could be even more than that depending on whether you're in New York City or other places.

他们说，“如果我每个月去几次约会，那可能要花几百美元。”无论如何，可能不止这个数字，具体取决于您是在纽约市还是其他地方。

And so they thought about that spend of a couple hundred dollars a month on Tinder as a small investment to make sure that they could date the people that they wanted.

因此，他们认为每月在 Tinder 上花费几百美元是一项小投资，以确保他们能够与他们想要的人约会。

Ravi Mehta: And so it was a really interesting example of we identified something quantitatively that was really interesting that we knew was potentially a lever to grow the business.

拉维·梅塔：这是一个非常有趣的例子，我们定量地确定了一些非常有趣的东西，我们知道它可能是业务增长的杠杆。

Our assumptions about why that use case was that use case were wrong.

我们关于为什么该用例是该用例的假设是错误的。

And when we ended up talking to users, we had some really surprising and fun conversations as a result, and we were also able to recalibrate and understand what those people were solving for.

当我们最终与用户交谈时，我们进行了一些非常令人惊讶和有趣的对话，我们也能够重新校准并理解这些人正在解决什么问题。

They're really solving for the utility of meeting people more effectively and not having to spend as much of their time to do it.

他们真正解决的是更有效地与人会面的效用，而不必花费太多时间来做这件事。

And they were framing the price in very different ways than the average user.

他们制定价格的方式与普通用户截然不同。

Lenny: I always love these examples where you see something in the data, you think it's something and then ends up being something else after you talk to customers.

Lenny：我总是喜欢这些例子，你在数据中看到一些东西，你认为它是某种东西，然后在与客户交谈后最终变成了别的东西。

Can you share what you built or changed in the product because of that?

您能分享一下您因此在产品中构建或更改的内容吗？

Or is that a private?

或者说这是私人的？

Ravi Mehta: Yeah, so there were two things that came out of those conversations.

拉维·梅塔：是的，这些谈话得出了两件事。

One is Tinder Platinum.

其中之一是 Tinder 白金版。

So that's a third tier of the product that is a little bit more expensive and then comes with some additional features, as well as a bundle of these consumables that you can use within the product, additional super likes and boost.

因此，这是产品的第三层，价格稍贵一些，然后附带一些附加功能，以及您可以在产品中使用的一系列消耗品、额外的超级喜欢和提升。

Ravi Mehta: And the other feature that came out of that is it's almost like a super swipe.

Ravi Mehta：由此产生的另一个功能是它几乎就像是超级滑动。

It's the ability to, instead of just send a super like, you can send a super like with a note.

您不仅可以发送超级赞，还可以在发送超级赞的同时附上便条。

And so it costs a lot more than a super like does, but it essentially allows you to break another rule of Tinder, which is you can't chat with anyone before you match.

因此，它的成本比超级喜欢高得多，但它本质上可以让你打破 Tinder 的另一条规则，即在匹配之前你不能与任何人聊天。

This allows you to send that first chat message to a person before you've matched.

这允许您在匹配之前向某人发送第一条聊天消息。

Basically to show that you're really interested in matching with that person further increases the likelihood that you'll match with them.

基本上，表明您确实有兴趣与该人匹配，这会进一步增加您与他们匹配的可能性。

And we were able to price it at a point which was much higher than we thought the pricing was going to be because we knew that people were thinking very differently about what the utility of that would be.

我们能够将其定价为远高于我们预期的定价，因为我们知道人们对于其效用的思考非常不同。

Lenny: That is awesome.

莱尼：那太棒了。

What a success story of a product team, product experience going through discovery research, data, designs, launch, revenue.

产品团队的成功故事，通过发现研究、数据、设计、发布、收入的产品体验。

Nice work.

干得好。

Ravi Mehta: And it was great.

拉维·梅塔：这太棒了。

And the was working on it for about a week.

他们为此工作了大约一周。

She was running into my office a couple times every time she had a call with one of these folks to share what she learned.

每次她给这些人打电话分享她所学到的东西时，她都会跑进我的办公室好几次。

And so those are the high level takeaways, but it was really interesting to get to know this demographic better.

这些都是高层次的要点，但更好地了解这个人群确实很有趣。

And then just talk to users.

然后与用户交谈。

I think oftentimes people don't spend enough time just picking up the phone and having a conversation one-on-one with the user of a product and getting into understanding their psychology, what value they're getting and how to really optimize for that.

我认为，人们常常没有花足够的时间拿起电话与产品用户进行一对一的对话，并了解他们的心理、他们获得的价值以及如何真正优化这一点。

Lenny: Today's episode is brought to you by Miro, an online visual whiteboard that's designed specifically for teams like yours and mine.

Lenny：今天的节目是由 Miro 为您带来的，Miro 是一款在线可视白板，专为像您和我这样的团队而设计。

I have a quick request, head on over to my board at miro.com/lenny and let me know which guest you'd love for me to have on in 2023.

我有一个简短的请求，请访问 miro.com/lenny 上的董事会，让我知道您希望我在 2023 年邀请哪位嘉宾。

And while you're on the Miro board, feel free to play around with the tool.

当您使用 Miro 板上时，请随意使用该工具。

It's a great shared space to work closely with your colleagues to capture ideas, get feedback, and iterate quickly and easily on anything you're working on.

这是一个很棒的共享空间，可以与同事密切合作，捕捉想法、获取反馈，并快速轻松地迭代您正在处理的任何事情。

Lenny: For example, in Miro, you can build out your product strategy by brainstorming with sticky notes, comments, live reactions, voting tool, even an estimation app to scope out your team sprints.

Lenny：例如，在 Miro 中，您可以通过便签、评论、实时反应、投票工具甚至估算应用程序来进行集思广益来制定您的产品策略，以确定您的团队冲刺范围。

Your whole distributed team can come together around a wireframe and draw ideas with a pen tool or even put mocks right into the Miro board.

您的整个分布式团队可以围绕线框聚集在一起，并使用钢笔工具绘制想法，甚至可以将模型直接放入 Miro 板上。

And with one of Miro's ready-made templates, you can go from discovery and research to product roadmap to customer journey flows to final mocks.

借助 Miro 的现成模板之一，您可以从发现和研究到产品路线图、客户旅程流程再到最终模拟。

You get the picture.

你明白了。

Head on over to miro.com/lenny, leave your suggestions.

前往 miro.com/lenny，留下您的建议。

That's M-I-R-O.com/lenny.

那是 M-I-R-O.com/lenny。

Lenny: I feel like being a PM is such a thankless job so often and these are what you live for as a PM.

Lenny：我觉得做 PM 常常是一份吃力不讨好的工作，而这些就是你作为 PM 的生活目的。

It's just like these success stories.

就像这些成功故事一样。

Ravi Mehta: Absolutely.

拉维·梅塔：当然。

One of the things that was unexpected when I started at Tinder was a couple times a week I would meet someone or I'd be in an Uber and the Uber driver would tell me, people would share like, "Oh, I met my boyfriend or girlfriend, or I met my wife or my husband on the platform." And it was really great to hear the stories.

当我开始在 Tinder 工作时，意想不到的一件事是，我每周会遇到几次某人，或者我会乘坐 Uber，然后 Uber 司机会告诉我，人们会分享这样的信息：“哦，我在这个平台上遇到了我的男朋友或女朋友，或者我遇到了我的妻子或丈夫。”听到这些故事真的很棒。

One of the things I didn't realize is the degree to which because of Tinder's very lightweight designs, it's been able to support the LGBTQ community much better than other dating products.

我没有意识到的一件事是，由于 Tinder 非常轻巧的设计，它能够比其他约会产品更好地支持 LGBTQ 社区。

And so some of my most fulfilling conversations with people who felt like they wouldn't have met their significant other without Tinder because there was just no place to do that.

因此，我与一些人进行了一些最令人满意的对话，他们觉得如果没有 Tinder，他们就不会遇到自己的另一半，因为没有地方可以这样做。

Lenny: Wow, man.

莱尼：哇，伙计。

Fulfilling, impactful, interesting, surprising.

充实、有影响力、有趣、令人惊讶。

What a role.

这是一个多么好的角色啊。

Actually met my wife online on a defunct dating site app called howaboutwe.com.

事实上，我是在一个名为 howaboutwe.com 的约会网站应用程序上在线认识我的妻子的。

Do you remember that one at all?

你还记得那个吗？

Ravi Mehta: No. I haven't even heard that.

拉维·梅塔：不，我什至没有听说过。

Lenny: It was too good.

莱尼：太好了。

It just matches people.

它只是匹配人。

It's like it reached Hinge's vision too well where they just...

就好像它太完美地达到了铰链的视野，他们只是……

nobody needed to stay on.

没有人需要留下来。

We don't just spend a lot of time on it, but basically the concept was how about we?

我们不仅在上面花费了大量时间，而且基本上的概念是我们怎么样？

And it's like a date concept.

这就像一个约会概念。

So instead of browsing profiles, you browse date ideas and then you say, "Hey, I want to do this date with you and let's go out and try it out." And it worked out for us.

因此，您不是浏览个人资料，而是浏览约会想法，然后说：“嘿，我想和你一起约会，让我们出去尝试一下。”这对我们来说很有效。

Ravi Mehta: That's really cool.

拉维·梅塔：这真的很酷。

There's so much opportunity.

有这么多的机会。

I think there's a lot of really good dating ideas that haven't been explored yet.

我认为还有很多非常好的约会想法尚未被探索。

Lenny: Mm-hmm.

莱尼：嗯嗯。

Interesting.

有趣的。

All right.

好的。

Good investment tip.

很好的投资秘诀。

Coming back to the product stack, getting back on track.

回到产品堆栈，回到正轨。

One interesting thing about your product stack that's a little bit contrarian is you put goals after roadmap.

关于您的产品堆栈的一件有趣的事情是，您将目标放在路线图之后，这有点逆向。

And I'm curious why that is?

我很好奇这是为什么？

Why you think goals should come after having a roadmap?

为什么您认为应该在制定路线图之后才制定目标？

Ravi Mehta: Yeah, it's definitely a contrarian point of view.

拉维·梅塔：是的，这绝对是一种逆向观点。

I've had a few people yell at me about this.

有几个人为此对我大喊大叫。

Typically, what happens is goals are almost the start of a strategic process rather than the end of it.

通常情况下，目标几乎是战略过程的开始，而不是结束。

A company will say, "We need to increase our revenue by X, or we need to increase our retention by Y.

一家公司会说：“我们需要将收入增加 X，或者我们需要将保留率增加 Y。

What's our strategy to be able to do that?" And what I've found over the years is that that goals first approach puts the entire energy of the product team on moving the goals without any sort of structure of what success looks like and why.

我们的策略是什么才能做到这一点？”多年来我发现，目标优先的方法将产品团队的全部精力放在实现目标上，而没有任何成功的样子和原因的结构。

Ravi Mehta: The analogy I like to use, it's a little bit like taking a road trip and starting out by saying, "Hey, we need to drive 250 miles." It's like, no, if you're going to take a road trip, you first decide where you want to drive to.

拉维·梅塔：我喜欢用这个比喻，这有点像公路旅行，一开始就说：“嘿，我们需要行驶 250 英里。”就像，不，如果您要进行公路旅行，您首先要决定要开车去哪里。

If you're in LA, you might take a road trip to Vegas.

如果您在洛杉矶，您可能会自驾前往维加斯。

And so our destination is Vegas, and we'll know whether or not we reach there if we've driven 250 miles.

所以我们的目的地是维加斯，如果我们行驶了 250 英里，我们就会知道是否到达那里。

Because that 250-mile goal is in the context of a destination.

因为 250 英里的目标是在目的地的背景下实现的。

Ravi Mehta: And so I think about all of the pieces of the strategy stack as being really clear about what is the end destination that you're solving for, and then you should work on goals to the extent that they help you reach that destination.

拉维·梅塔：所以我认为战略堆栈的所有部分都非常清楚您要解决的最终目的地是什么，然后您应该致力于实现能够帮助您实现该目的地的目标。

And if you find that achieving your goal is actually pulling away from the destination, then there's a really important conversation to be had about do we leave that gain on the table because it's not aligned with our destination, or do we need to change our destination?

如果你发现实现你的目标实际上偏离了目的地，那么就需要进行一次非常重要的对话，我们是否应该因为它与我们的目的地不一致而将这一收益留在桌面上，或者我们是否需要改变我们的目的地？

And I think what happens too often when people start with goals and then create the roadmap is that the goal takes precedence and there's no context, there's no principles that are ultimately driving that.

我认为，当人们从目标开始，然后创建路线图时，经常发生的情况是，目标优先，没有背景，没有最终推动目标的原则。

And so those decisions about the direction of the product come and go without even really being noticed because there's nothing to calibrate against.

因此，这些关于产品方向的决定来来去去，甚至没有真正被注意到，因为没有什么可以校准的。

Lenny: So I a hundred percent agree that strategy should come ahead of goals.

莱尼：所以我百分百同意战略应该先于目标。

What's interesting is, so if your approach is strategy then figure out what you're building and then figure out your goals, how do you prioritize the roadmap?

有趣的是，如果你的方法是战略，那么弄清楚你正在构建什么，然后找出你的目标，你如何确定路线图的优先顺序？

Because from my perspective, come up with your strategy how are we going to get to where we're going to get.

因为从我的角度来看，想出你的策略，我们将如何达到我们将要达到的目标。

Goals to me are how we measure progress towards that.

对我来说，目标是我们衡量目标进展的方式。

And then the roadmap comes out of what's going to help us achieve this goal, and how do we prioritize based on what's going to most impact this goal that we have.

然后路线图就可以帮助我们实现这一目标，以及我们如何根据对我们的目标影响最大的因素确定优先顺序。

So how do you approach prioritizing and picking what's going to be in the roadmap if you don't have your goals?

那么，如果您没有目标，您如何确定优先级并选择路线图中的内容呢？

Is it more like, here's the main KPI, or you have a rough sense of KPIs and metrics you're going to watch and use that to prioritize?

更像是，这是主要 KPI，还是您对要观察的 KPI 和指标有一个粗略的认识，并使用它们来确定优先级？

Or how do you think about that?

或者你对此有何看法？

Ravi Mehta: Yeah, I think as part of the strategy, you'll typically have some quantifiable elements of that strategy.

拉维·梅塔：是的，我认为作为战略的一部分，您通常会拥有该战略的一些可量化元素。

So for example, for Tripadvisor, our strategy was with trip planning, we wanted people to come directly to Tripadvisor and spend more time on Tripadvisor.

例如，对于 Tripadvisor 来说，我们的策略是旅行规划，我们希望人们直接访问 Tripadvisor 并在 Tripadvisor 上花费更多时间。

And so what was happening was that most of a person's usage of Tripadvisor was interleaved with visits to Google.

因此，人们对 Tripadvisor 的大部分使用都与对 Google 的访问交织在一起。

And so people would search for something, Boston hotels, come to Tripadvisor.

因此，人们会搜索波士顿酒店等内容，然后来到 Tripadvisor。

They might say, "No, I want to look at New York." They Google New York hotels, and they come and look at Tripadvisor.

他们可能会说：“不，我想去纽约看看。”他们用谷歌搜索纽约酒店，然后来看看Tripadvisor。

And Tripadvisor's in a really good position to actually not have a person go back to Google because we knew about the preferences, we knew about their states, we knew who else they might be traveling with.

Tripadvisor 处于一个非常有利的位置，实际上不会让一个人回到谷歌，因为我们知道他们的偏好，我们知道他们的州，我们知道他们可能会和谁一起旅行。

And so more of that planning activity could happen directly within the product.

因此，更多的规划活动可以直接在产品内进行。

Ravi Mehta: And so the problem was that at a company like Tripadvisor, which is very experimental, very quantitatively focused, the product teams were constantly optimizing for what's going to drive bookings in the moment.

Ravi Mehta：所以问题在于，在像 Tripadvisor 这样的公司，它是一个非常具有实验性、非常注重定量的公司，产品团队不断优化以推动当前的预订量。

And so the thing that drives bookings from a visit to Google naturally moves a person down a transaction path and gets them to the booking and doesn't have them stop along the way to set up their trip and start to add things to their trip and create their wishlist.

因此，通过访问 Google 推动预订的因素自然会促使人们沿着交易路径进行预订，而不是让他们在途中停下来设置行程、开始向行程添加内容并创建心愿单。

That actually gets in the way of the transaction itself.

这实际上妨碍了交易本身。

And so in the absence of that strategy around, we actually want to get people to come directly to Tripadvisor more often.

因此，在缺乏这种策略的情况下，我们实际上希望让人们更频繁地直接访问 Tripadvisor。

We were doing so many things that ultimately undermined that strategy and got people to sort of leapfrog through the product instead of stay with the product.

我们做了很多事情，最终破坏了这一策略，并让人们跳过了产品，而不是停留在产品上。

Ravi Mehta: And so that's a really good example of where if we know we want to generate that long-term continuous relationship with the user, there's a set of things from a roadmap standpoint that we can do to do that.

Ravi Mehta：这是一个很好的例子，如果我们知道我们想要与用户建立长期持续的关系，那么从路线图的角度来看，我们可以采取一系列措施来做到这一点。

We can prioritize those things, we can use numbers, we can opportunity size them, we can prioritize based on that, and then we can measure whether or not we're made progress based on that strategic and very conceptual understanding of where we want to go.

我们可以优先考虑这些事情，我们可以使用数字，我们可以确定它们的机会大小，我们可以基于此确定优先顺序，然后我们可以根据对我们想要去的地方的战略性和非常概念性的理解来衡量我们是否取得了进展。

Lenny: So the biggest takeaway I think we both fully agree on is your strategy should come ahead of having goals and coming up with your goals and aligning on goals.

莱尼：所以我认为我们都完全同意的最大收获是你的战略应该先于设定目标、提出你的目标并与目标保持一致。

No question.

毫无疑问。

Lenny: Speaking of goals, you also have some really interesting insights on just how to come up with goals and best practices for aligning and setting goals.

Lenny：说到目标，您对于如何提出目标以及调整和设定目标的最佳实践也有一些非常有趣的见解。

I'd love to dig into that a little bit and then I have another topic I want to talk about.

我很想深入探讨一下，然后我想谈谈另一个话题。

Ravi Mehta: Yeah, that sounds good.

拉维·梅塔：是的，听起来不错。

So I've done a little bit of writing about goals, which came out of...

所以我写了一些关于目标的文章，这些内容来自……

I've been at multiple companies that have put OKRs into practice and had a really hard time with that.

我曾在多家将 OKR 付诸实践的公司工作过，但在这方面经历了一段非常艰难的时期。

And I've talked to a lot of product teams who have had a hard time.

我和很多经历过困难的产品团队交谈过。

So the question I started asking is, why are companies having a hard time with OKRs?

所以我开始问的问​​题是，为什么公司在 OKR 方面遇到困难？

What's happening that is preventing teams from being able to set goals that they really understand how to achieve and achieving those goals?

到底发生了什么，导致团队无法设定他们真正了解如何实现和实现这些目标的目标？

Ravi Mehta: And one of the things that I found, which I think was sort of a first principle that's happening at a lot of companies, is this idea of always focusing on outcomes over outputs and comes from a good place, which is ultimately, and I think this is the case, ultimately, a PM needs to measure their success based on whether or not they generate valuable outcomes for the business.

Ravi Mehta：我发现的一件事，我认为这是很多公司正在发生的首要原则，就是始终关注结果而不是产出的想法，并且来自一个好的地方，最终，我认为情况就是如此，最终，PM 需要根据他们是否为业务产生有价值的结果来衡量他们的成功。

But that doesn't necessarily mean that in this quarter we need to commit to a specific outcome or that we should commit to a specific outcome that we may or may not know how to move.

但这并不一定意味着在本季度我们需要致力于实现特定的结果，或者我们应该致力于实现我们可能不知道如何推动的特定结果。

Ravi Mehta: And so I think ultimately the goal is to drive outcomes, but oftentimes there's things that come before that that need to be addressed ahead of time so that you can really understand what the plan for meeting those outcomes is going to look like.

拉维·梅塔：所以我认为最终的目标是推动成果，但通常需要提前解决之前发生的事情，这样你才能真正了解实现这些成果的计划会是什么样子。

And so I refer to that as the frontier of understanding.

所以我将其称为理解的前沿。

There's a point at which what the team knows and what the team doesn't know.

在某个时刻，团队知道什么，不知道什么。

There's a junction point there, which is this frontier.

那里有一个交汇点，就是这个边界。

And it could be actually we don't know what moves retention.

实际上我们可能不知道是什么推动了留存。

If you ask me to remove retention, I can brainstorm 10 experiments, but I don't actually know why people are continuing to use our product.

如果你要求我消除保留，我可以集思广益 10 个实验，但我实际上不知道为什么人们继续使用我们的产品。

And so then it doesn't make sense to commit to a retention goal because you're going to sort of throw a spaghetti against the wall, have a bunch of experiments, will stick, and maybe you'll be able to move the metric, but you won't have understood exactly why, or you might move the metric in a way that is not tied to the strategy that you have as a business.

因此，致力于保留目标是没有意义的，因为你将把意大利面条扔到墙上，进行一系列实验，会坚持下来，也许你将能够移动指标，但你不会确切地理解为什么，或者你可能会以一种与你作为企业的策略无关的方式移动指标。

Ravi Mehta: So the first type of risk is really understanding risk.

拉维·梅塔：所以第一种类型的风险是真正理解风险。

And if you don't understand how to move a particular metric, then the right goal is to set a goal to increase your understanding not to move that metric.

如果您不了解如何移动特定指标，那么正确的目标是设定一个目标来增加您的理解，而不是移动该指标。

Once you have an understanding of how to move the metric, your team may or may not be able to execute very well.

一旦您了解了如何移动指标，您的团队可能会或可能不会很好地执行。

It might not be able to execute those sorts of experiments.

它可能无法执行此类实验。

It may not have the resources that it needs to execute.

它可能没有执行所需的资源。

And so then you might want to set an execution goal.

那么你可能想要设定一个执行目标。

So we want to hit 20 experiments this quarter, and if you can hit those 20 experiments, you'll know that you're executing really, really well.

因此，我们希望在本季度进行 20 个实验，如果您能够完成这 20 个实验，您就会知道自己执行得非常非常好。

And even if those experiments don't work, that moves that frontier a little bit forward.

即使这些实验不起作用，也会将这一前沿向前推进一点。

Ravi Mehta: And then finally the ultimate frontier is strategic risk.

拉维·梅塔：最后，最终的前沿是战略风险。

We understand how to move retention or we think we understand how to move retention.

我们了解如何提高留存率，或者我们认为我们了解如何提高留存率。

We're going to do a set of things to do that.

我们将做一系列事情来做到这一点。

And then either we'll learn that our understanding is correct, in which case we can pull that lever more, or we'll learn that it's not correct, in which case we need to go back to understanding and goal ourselves based on that.

然后我们要么会发现我们的理解是正确的，在这种情况下我们可以进一步拉动杠杆，要么我们会发现它是不正确的，在这种情况下我们需要重新理解并在此基础上为自己设定目标。

Lenny: That is really interesting.

莱尼：这真的很有趣。

So the term is frontier of understanding, right?

所以这个词是理解的前沿，对吧？

Lenny: And there's four buckets that you just described of types of goals.

莱尼：您刚才描述了四种目标类型。

Can you repeat them again?

你能再重复一遍吗？

Ravi Mehta: Yeah.

拉维·梅塔：是的。

So the four buckets are, it starts with understanding risk, which is we have something that we want to do but we don't really understand what the levers are.

所以这四个部分是，它从了解风险开始，即我们有我们想做的事情，但我们并不真正了解杠杆是什么。

Then the next thing is dependency risk, which is we understand what we think the levers are, but we may or may not have the tools that we need in order to make progress.

接下来是依赖风险，即我们了解我们认为的杠杆是什么，但我们可能拥有也可能没有取得进展所需的工具。

Then there's execution risk, which is we have all the resources that we need, we have a really strong hypothesis, and then we may or may not be able to execute against those hypotheses.

然后是执行风险，即我们拥有所需的所有资源，我们有一个非常有力的假设，然后我们可能或可能无法针对这些假设执行。

And the last thing is strategic risk, which is we have a hypothesis and it might turn out that that was not the right hypothesis.

最后一件事是战略风险，即我们有一个假设，但结果可能不是正确的假设。

Lenny: Oh man.

莱尼：天啊。

I wanted to move on to a different topic, but I want to dig into this a little bit because it's really interesting.

我想转向另一个主题，但我想深入研究一下，因为它真的很有趣。

So a lot of people work at companies where their product manager, leader is not going to be like, "Cool, let's spend a quarter understanding if we can move this metric." That seems like you have to be a really evolved leader to be okay with that, or is that even not a good idea to spend a quarter doing that?

因此，很多人在公司工作，他们的产品经理、领导者不会说，“酷，让我们花四分之一的时间了解是否可以改变这个指标。”看来你必须是一个真正进化的领导者才能接受这一点，或者花四分之一的时间来做这件事甚至不是一个好主意？

How do you think about not actually having a goal that is moving a metric that people care about and focusing on understanding and kind of pushing this frontier of understanding further versus just moving a metric that people actually want you to move?

您如何看待实际上没有一个目标是移动人们关心的指标并专注于理解并进一步推动这一理解的前沿，而不是仅仅移动人们实际上希望您移动的指标？

Ravi Mehta: It might be that for the quarter, the way that the company works, the things that it's focused on.

拉维·梅塔：可能是这个季度、公司的运作方式以及重点关注的事情。

You need to actually commit to a goal to move retention or a goal to move your follower count or something like that.

您需要真正致力于提高保留率的目标或提高关注者数量的目标或类似的目标。

There's two ways to do that.

有两种方法可以做到这一点。

One is you can commit to that goal and then in three months kind of hope for the best and just do a lot of work that you think might actually move the lever.

一是你可以致力于实现这个目标，然后在三个月内抱有最好的希望，并做很多你认为可能真正推动杠杆的工作。

The other thing is to say actually that journey towards hitting that particular goal, we can break into.

另一件事是说，实际上我们可以闯入实现特定目标的旅程。

Initially let's spend a couple of weeks understanding.

首先让我们花几周时间来理解。

We'll talk to customers.

我们将与客户交谈。

We'll do some analysis.

我们会做一些分析。

We'll form some really good hypotheses.

我们将形成一些非常好的假设。

And then based on those hypotheses we'll start to figure out what do we need to execute on in order to start to validate those hypotheses.

然后根据这些假设，我们将开始弄清楚我们需要执行什么才能开始验证这些假设。

And then we can execute on those things and validate those hypotheses.

然后我们可以执行这些事情并验证这些假设。

Ravi Mehta: And depending on where in the quarter things start to go off the rails, you'll have a feeling for where that frontier is.

拉维·梅塔：根据本季度情况开始偏离轨道的位置，你会对边界在哪里有一种感觉。

And when you miss the goal, you can then go back to the team or the leadership and say, "We missed our goal, but I think I know why.

当你错过目标时，你可以回到团队或领导层并说：“我们错过了目标，但我想我知道为什么。

Here's the things that we did within the quarter and here's where things started to go off the rails.

这是我们在本季度所做的事情，也是事情开始脱轨的地方。

Here's what I'd suggest that we commit to for the next quarter so that we can be much more sure that we're going to hit our goal."

这是我建议我们在下个季度做出的承诺，这样我们就可以更加确定我们将实现我们的目标。”

Ravi Mehta: And leadership is always going to be outcome driven, but they also want to have a lot of confidence that we're going to be able to hit those outcomes.

拉维·梅塔：领导力总是以结果为导向，但他们也希望对我们能够实现这些结果充满信心。

And so if you can clearly convey the learning and provide a really clear path that will get them that confidence, they're often going to be much more than you anticipate.

因此，如果你能够清楚地传达学习内容并提供一条真正清晰的路径来让他们获得信心，他们通常会比你预期的要好得多。

I think the desire to always set outcome-based goals is just shorthand for we want you to move the needle and we want you to be thinking about that.

我认为始终设定以结果为基础的目标的愿望只是我们希望你能有所行动的简写，我们希望你能够考虑这一点。

That doesn't mean that you do that in the absence of really detailed understanding and really honing your execution process so that you can execute flawlessly.

这并不意味着您在缺乏真正详细的理解和真正磨练执行过程的情况下这样做，以便您可以完美地执行。

So approaching things in that way can help you change the conversation and make it much more specific.

因此，以这种方式处理事情可以帮助您改变对话并使其更加具体。

Lenny: And you also have a post about this exact topic, right?

莱尼：你也有一篇关于这个主题的帖子，对吧？

Ravi Mehta: I do, yeah.

拉维·梅塔：我愿意，是的。

I've got a post on the Reforge blog.

我在 Reforge 博客上发表了一篇文章。

Can't remember the title.

不记得标题了。

I think it's Set Better Goal with NCTs instead of OKRs.

我认为用 NCT 而不是 OKR 来设定更好的目标。

Lenny: Okay, cool.

莱尼：好的，酷。

So if your manager is not buying what you're saying, that could be interesting to share with them and see if that'll change their mind.

因此，如果你的经理不相信你所说的话，与他们分享并看看这是否会改变他们的想法可能会很有趣。

Your first point is worst case, you just hope for the best.

你的第一点是最坏的情况，你只是希望最好的情况。

You know that your frontier understanding is not that far, but still set that ambitious outcome-based goal and then hopefully works out.

你知道你的前沿理解还没有那么远，但仍然设定了雄心勃勃的基于结果的目标，然后希望能够实现。

But in reality, it may not be realistic.

但实际上，这可能不太现实。

Ravi Mehta: I think we can think about it as two by two matrix.

Ravi Mehta：我认为我们可以将其视为二乘二矩阵。

On one axis of the matrix you have, did we hit our goals?

在您所拥有的矩阵的一个轴上，我们是否达到了目标？

And on the other access we have, do we know why?

对于我们拥有的其他访问权限，我们知道为什么吗？

And ultimately you want to be in the upper right quadrant.

最终你希望位于右上象限。

You want to hit your goals and know why you hit your goals.

您想实现自己的目标并知道为什么实现目标。

Some teams are in the quadrant where they hit their goals, but they don't know why, which is good for now, but it's eventually going to catch up with you.

有些团队处于实现目标的象限，但他们不知道为什么，这对现在来说很好，但最终会赶上你。

And then an important thing to be in is if you didn't hit your goals to make sure that you're at least understanding why or at least you're making progress on understanding why.

然后，一件重要的事情是，如果您没有实现目标，请确保您至少理解了原因，或者至少在理解原因方面取得了进展。

And I think too often teams get so focused on the goals, they get less focused on the learning.

我认为团队常常过于关注目标，而不太关注学习。

Lenny: Okay, final topic, product management competencies.

莱尼：好的，最后一个话题是产品管理能力。

So this is a post you wrote a while ago.

这是您不久前写的一篇文章。

It's the post I've shared most of your many writings online, and I'm going to pull up this image on my screen.

这是我在网上分享的大部分作品的帖子，我将在屏幕上显示这张图片。

So another plug to check it out on YouTube or Spotify.

因此，请使用另一个插件在 YouTube 或 Spotify 上查看。

Can you talk about what this is and why it's important for PMs to think of their career in this view and in general just understand what the components of a great PM are?

您能否谈谈这是什么，以及为什么 PM 从这个角度思考自己的职业生涯并总体上了解优秀 PM 的组成部分是什么很重要？

Ravi Mehta: Yeah, definitely.

拉维·梅塔：是的，当然。

So we developed this at Tripadvisor.

所以我们在 Tripadvisor 开发了这个。

When I joined Tripadvisor, the company was newly public and as part of being a newly public company and wanted to grow different teams really quickly including the product team.

当我加入 Tripadvisor 时，该公司刚刚上市，并且作为新上市公司的一部分，并且希望快速发展不同的团队，包括产品团队。

And what we were finding is that hiring a product out of industry, and at the time we were based in Boston.

我们发现，当时我们的总部设在波士顿，所以雇用了行业外的产品。

So hiring a really good experience PM in Boston was taking between three and six months, and that just was too long to reach the sort of growth goals that we wanted to hit from a team perspective and a headcount perspective.

因此，在波士顿聘请一位经验丰富的产品经理需要三到六个月的时间，而这对于实现我们从团队角度和员工数量角度想要实现的增长目标来说太长了。

Ravi Mehta: And so the head of product there came up with this program called the product rotational program, where we would hire people directly out of business school and out of undergrad into their first product role regardless of whether or not they had prior product experience.

拉维·梅塔（Ravi Mehta）：因此，那里的产品负责人提出了这个称为产品轮换计划的计划，我们将直接雇用商学院和本科生的人员担任他们的第一个产品角色，无论他们之前是否有产品经验。

And they would go through two years of rotations.

他们将经历两年的轮换。

So four six-month rotations where they would be able to focus on teams that are zero to one teams or growth teams or infrastructure teams.

因此，进行四次为期六个月的轮换，他们将能够专注于从零到一的团队、增长团队或基础设施团队。

So the goal was in about two years to get a person to be able to experience various different parts of product management and have them come out with the skills to be a senior and effective product manager.

因此，我们的目标是在大约两年内让一个人能够体验产品管理的各个不同部分，并让他们具备成为一名高级且高效的产品经理的技能。

Ravi Mehta: And so as part of that, we really needed to define very clearly what is product management and how do we help people identify the skills that they need to be an effective product manager and give them a plan so that they can grow those skills.

Ravi Mehta：因此，作为其中的一部分，我们确实需要非常清楚地定义什么是产品管理，以及我们如何帮助人们确定成为一名有效的产品经理所需的技能，并为他们提供一个计划，以便他们能够发展这些技能。

And so that's how this framework initially came to be.

这就是这个框架最初的样子。

The framework consists of 12 competencies in four different areas.

该框架由四个不同领域的 12 项能力组成。

These competencies I think are the same for APMs as they are for CPOs, and I can talk a little bit about how they change as a person gets more senior.

我认为这些能力对于 APM 和 CPO 来说是相同的，我可以谈谈随着一个人的级别越来越高，这些能力会发生怎样的变化。

But these 12 areas are equally important regardless of where you are within your product management journey.

但无论您处于产品管理之旅的哪个阶段，这 12 个领域都同样重要。

The specifics might change, but the overlying structure remains the same.

具体细节可能会发生变化，但顶层结构保持不变。

Ravi Mehta: The first thing that's really important is product execution.

Ravi Mehta：首先真正重要的是产品执行。

So PMs need to be able to work with their teams to build product, and that breaks down into three sub-competencies.

因此，产品经理需要能够与团队合作来构建产品，这可以分为三个子能力。

The first is functional specification.

首先是功能规范。

So that's the ability to work with your team to define what is the PRD or the functional specification that defines what you want to build.

这就是与您的团队合作定义什么是 PRD 或定义您想要构建的功能规范的能力。

The second thing is product delivery, which is the ability to work with engineering and design and the other teams to take that specification and turn it into working product.

第二件事是产品交付，这是与工程和设计以及其他团队合作以采用该规范并将其转化为工作产品的能力。

And the third piece, which I've changed from quality assurance is now product quality, is making sure that what you build is high quality, not just from a technical perspective, but also from a design perspective, a usability perspective and a business perspective.

第三部分，我从质量保证改为现在的产品质量，是确保您构建的产品是高质量的，不仅从技术角度，而且从设计角度、可用性角度和业务角度。

Ravi Mehta: And so ultimately that's the foundation of being a successful product manager is being able to execute.

Ravi Mehta：最终，执行力是成为一名成功产品经理的基础。

And that's as true for an APM as it is for a VP or a CPO.

对于 APM 和 VP 或 CPO 来说都是如此。

An APM is going to think about product execution in terms of their day-to-day individual contribution.

APM 将根据其日常个人贡献来考虑产品执行。

But a CPO is going to think about product execution in terms of the systems that they create to enable teams to define really good specifications, to deliver products really effectively, to execute flawlessly and to deliver products that have a very high bar of quality.

但是 CPO 会根据他们创建的系统来考虑产品执行，以使团队能够定义真正好的规范、真正有效地交付产品、完美地执行并交付具有非常高质量标准的产品。

Ravi Mehta: The second area is customer insight.

Ravi Mehta：第二个领域是客户洞察。

So in addition to being able to build products, you need to understand customers so you can figure out what to build.

因此，除了能够构建产品之外，您还需要了解客户，以便弄清楚要构建什么。

The three subcomponents here are fluency with data, which is the ability to use all of the data at your fingertips to make decisions about what customers need.

这里的三个子组件是对数据的流畅性，即使用触手可及的所有数据来做出有关客户需求的决策的能力。

The second one is voice of the customer, which is the ability to have the conversations with the customer so that the product manager can be the advocate for the customer throughout the entire company as well as the advocate within the product.

第二个是客户的声音，即与客户进行对话的能力，使产品经理成为整个公司客户的代言人以及产品内部的代言人。

Ravi Mehta: The third is user experience design.

Ravi Mehta：第三是用户体验设计。

And so this goes back to our earlier conversation about wireframes.

这又回到了我们之前关于线框图的讨论。

I think a fundamental part of being a really good product manager is the ability to think about the user experience in a very detailed way to make sure that you're not just defining functionality, but you're really clearly understanding how that functionality turns into user experience.

我认为成为一名真正优秀的产品经理的一个基本部分是能够以非常详细的方式思考用户体验，以确保您不仅定义功能，而且真正清楚地理解该功能如何转化为用户体验。

And this is very explicitly user experience design and not user interface design because the experience of your product may vary.

这是非常明确的用户体验设计，而不是用户界面设计，因为您的产品的体验可能会有所不同。

If you're building APIs, then your experience is actually the API spec.

如果您正在构建 API，那么您的体验实际上就是 API 规范。

If you're building ML models, then your experience might be the training models or the other systems that you're using to identify the effectiveness of those training models.

如果您正在构建机器学习模型，那么您的经验可能是训练模型或用于识别这些训练模型有效性的其他系统。

So this can be a skill that you can think about really broadly across a lot of different product roles.

因此，这可能是一项您可以在许多不同的产品角色中广泛思考的技能。

Ravi Mehta: The third piece is product strategy, and that breaks down into three things.

拉维·梅塔：第三部分是产品策略，分为三部分。

The first one is being able to own business outcomes.

第一个是能够拥有业务成果。

So it's really important to move away from thinking about product as shipping features to driving business outcomes.

因此，从将产品视为交付功能转向推动业务成果非常重要。

And so this competency is about understanding how does your product or the features that you're working on plug into the business and drive value for the business.

因此，这种能力是关于了解您正在开发的产品或功能如何融入业务并为业务带来价值。

The next competency is product vision and road mapping.

下一个能力是产品愿景和路线图。

So that's the ability to take the individual pieces of work that you're doing for a product and put those together into a coherent vision and roadmap that allows you to build towards the product strategy and the company strategy over time.

因此，这就是将您为产品所做的各个工作部分整合在一起形成一个连贯的愿景和路线图的能力，使您能够随着时间的推移制定产品战略和公司战略。

The third one is strategic impact.

第三个是战略影响。

You're just like product road mapping as a sequence of features.

你就像产品路线图一样是一系列功能。

I think about strategic impact as a sequence of business outcomes.

我将战略影响视为一系列业务成果。

So initially really focused on owning business outcomes and delivering business outcomes.

因此，最初真正关注的是拥有业务成果和交付业务成果。

But ultimately what's really important is does that sequence of business outcomes move the strategy forward and help you deliver impact on that strategy?

但最终真正重要的是，这一系列业务成果是否能够推动战略向前发展并帮助您对该战略产生影响？

Ravi Mehta: And then the fourth and final piece is all about leadership.

拉维·梅塔：第四篇也是最后一篇都是关于领导力的。

So it's influencing people.

所以它正在影响着人们。

The first up competency is stakeholder inclusion, so that's being able to work with all of the different people throughout your organization to rally them around the work that you're doing.

第一个能力是利益相关者包容性，因此能够与整个组织中的所有不同人员合作，将他们聚集到您正在做的工作上。

The second one is team leadership.

二是团队领导力。

This is one that doesn't actually come into play until you have direct reports, but once you have direct reports, being able to help those direct reports become really great product managers is a critical skill.

在你有直接下属之前，这一点实际上不会发挥作用，但是一旦你有直接下属，能够帮助这些直接下属成为真正优秀的产品经理是一项关键技能。

And the last one, which is always really important for PMs, is being able to manage up so that you can win the support of the leadership within your organization.

最后一项对于产品经理来说始终非常重要，那就是能够向上管理，以便赢得组织内领导层的支持。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

What a crazy-ass job this product management job is.

这个产品管理工作是多么疯狂的工作啊。

Ravi Mehta: You just got to do that and then you're good.

拉维·梅塔：你只要这么做就可以了。

Lenny: Oh man.

莱尼：天啊。

This is an incredible framework.

这是一个令人难以置信的框架。

I've never found a simpler, more beautiful, very clear, easy to consume and share version of what the PM role is.

我从未找到过比 PM 角色更简单、更美观、非常清晰、易于使用和分享的版本。

So if people are looking for some inspiration for figuring out how to define the PM role with their company, set up their career ladders, I always point them to this and we'll definitely link to this in the show notes.

因此，如果人们正在寻找一些灵感来弄清楚如何定义公司的产品经理角色，建立他们的职业阶梯，我总是向他们指出这一点，我们肯定会在展会笔记中链接到这一点。

And thank you for doing such a great job walking through it.

感谢您完成了如此出色的工作。

There's a lot there.

那里有很多东西。

Ravi Mehta: Yeah, definitely.

拉维·梅塔：是的，当然。

And then on my website I've got a downloadable kit that's got tools to evaluate yourself.

然后在我的网站上，我有一个可下载的工具包，其中包含用于评估自己的工具。

It goes into each of the competencies in more detail.

它更详细地介绍了每项能力。

It talks about some of the different archetypes.

它讨论了一些不同的原型。

So you'll find certain styles of PMs have certain clusters of competencies.

因此，您会发现某些类型的产品经理具有某些能力。

If you're a growth PM, you might have a certain focus that might include a lot of focus on data and outcome ownership.

如果您是增长产品经理，您可能会有一定的关注点，其中可能包括对数据和结果所有权的大量关注。

If you're more of a product discovery or product innovation PM, you may have a different set of skills.

如果您更多的是产品发现或产品创新产品经理，您可能拥有不同的技能。

So being able to map yourself out.

所以能够规划自己。

We'll help you understand where you want to grow and what types of roles are a really good fit for you.

我们将帮助您了解您想要在哪里成长以及哪些类型的角色真正适合您。

Lenny: Plug the site while you're at it.

莱尼：当你访问网站时，请插上电源。

Where do they find this exactly?

他们到底在哪里找到这个？

Ravi Mehta: They can find it at ravi-mehta.com.

Ravi Mehta：他们可以在 ravi-mehta.com 上找到它。

So M-E-H-T-A.

所以M-E-H-T-A。

Lenny: Sweet.

莱尼：甜甜的。

You have this kind of concept of exponential feedback that kind of relates to this and just partly touches on why this is so important for PMs to think about.

你有这种与此相关的指数反馈概念，并且只是部分地触及了为什么这对于产品经理来说如此重要。

Can you talk a bit about that?

你能谈谈这个吗？

Ravi Mehta: Yeah, definitely.

拉维·梅塔：是的，当然。

So this is something we talked about in the product leadership program.

这是我们在产品领导计划中讨论的内容。

One of the most challenging things I think for both a PM as well as a product leader is to figure out how to grow yourself and grow your team.

我认为对于产品经理和产品负责人来说，最具挑战性的事情之一就是弄清楚如何发展自己和发展团队。

And a key way to do that is through feedback.

实现这一目标的一个关键方法是通过反馈。

It's really important to provide people with good feedback to help them understand how to grow.

为人们提供良好的反馈以帮助他们了解如何成长非常重要。

But the problem is, and this is true in a casual one-on-one, as much as it's true in an annual performance review, it's oftentimes the feedback that people provide is very surface level.

但问题是，这在非正式的一对一谈话中是正确的，就像在年度绩效评估中一样，人们提供的反馈通常是非常肤浅的。

It may focus on particular symptoms but not root causes.

它可能关注特定的症状，而不是根本原因。

Ravi Mehta: And so one of the ways that this framework can help is, I'll often encourage people when they're first starting to use the framework, just to go through each competency and rate themselves needs focus, on track or outperforming on each of the competencies to quickly get a read on where you feel like you're landing.

Ravi Mehta：这个框架可以提供帮助的方式之一是，我经常鼓励人们在第一次开始使用该框架时，只是检查每项能力并评估自己需要关注的重点，在每一项能力上走上正轨或表现出色，以快速了解您感觉自己正在着陆的地方。

You can ask your manager to do that same thing.

您可以要求您的经理做同样的事情。

You can do that in five or 10 minutes.

您可以在五到十分钟内完成此操作。

And then the areas where your manager and you see eye to eye and the areas where you guys see differently is stimulus for a really deep conversation.

然后，你和你的经理意见一致的领域以及你们看法不同的领域会激发真正深入的对话。

Ravi Mehta: And so I think that is like the entry point to providing exponential feedback.

拉维·梅塔：所以我认为这就像提供指数反馈的切入点。

And I think about exponential feedback as feedback that has compounding returns.

我认为指数反馈是具有复利回报的反馈。

So if you give someone feedback on a particular symptom or you give them feedback on something that's tactical and they fix that in a moment, the feedback, the conclusion of that feedback, it just happens and then it's gone.

因此，如果你向某人提供有关特定症状的反馈，或者向他们提供有关战术性问题的反馈，他们会立即修复该问题，反馈，反馈的结论，它就会发生，然后就消失了。

But if instead you help a person understand the underlying behaviors that led to that particular situation, then they can focus on growing themselves.

但如果你帮助一个人理解导致特定情况的潜在行为，那么他们就可以专注于自我成长。

They can also focus on helping to diagnose their own performance more effectively, and that leads to compounding returns where they just keep getting better and better over time.

他们还可以专注于帮助更有效地诊断自己的表现，这会带来复合回报，随着时间的推移，他们会变得越来越好。

[NEW_PARAGRAPH]And so the ability to kind of apply the competencies as a lens helps you move out of that abstract, kind of surface level feedback into very specific categorizations of things that a person might need to work on, which I think gets to the root cause of areas a person can grow in and that ultimately leads to more effective feedback that has those compounding returns.

[NEW_PARAGRAPH]因此，将能力作为一个镜头来应用的能力可以帮助你摆脱那种抽象的、表面的反馈，进入一个人可能需要处理的事情的非常具体的分类，我认为这找到了一个人可以成长的领域的根本原因，并最终导致更有效的反馈，从而产生复合回报。

Lenny: On that thread, just maybe a last question here.

莱尼：关于这个话题，也许只是最后一个问题。

If your manager isn't good at this and isn't giving you this sort of feedback, do you have any advice for how to get feedback from people like this, mentors, anything like that?

如果你的经理不擅长这一点并且没有给你这种反馈，你对如何从这样的人、导师或类似的人那里获得反馈有什么建议吗？

If your manager just kind of isn't doing that, isn't filling that role for you.

如果你的经理没有这样做，就没有为你填补这个角色。

Ravi Mehta: One of the things you can do if you are in a product role is ask them to do this exercise and evaluate you.

Ravi Mehta：如果你担任产品角色，你可以做的一件事就是要求他们做这个练习并评估你。

Your manager will almost certainly have some impression of your performance that they haven't necessarily...

你的经理几乎肯定会对你的表现有一些印象，但他们不一定......

If they're not doing it proactively, they probably have it intuitively.

如果他们没有主动这样做，他们可能会凭直觉获得。

And helping them get it down on paper and getting it more specific can be a really good way to start that conversation.

帮助他们将其写在纸上并使其更具体，可能是开始对话的好方法。

So that's one thing that you can do.

所以这是你可以做的一件事。

Ravi Mehta: A second thing is I think oftentimes people refrain from giving feedback when they feel like that feedback is going to be intrusive.

拉维·梅塔：第二件事是，我认为当人们觉得反馈会具有侵入性时，他们通常会避免提供反馈。

So just inviting your manager to say, "Look, I'm really looking to level up.

因此，只需邀请你的经理说：“听着，我真的很想晋升。

Please give me feedback whenever you see something.

每当您看到某些东西时请给我反馈。

You can give it to me in real time.

你可以实时给我。

Don't worry about wordsmithing it.

不用担心措辞。

I just want to make sure that I'm getting better." That agreement with your manager and giving them permission to give you that feedback will make sure that the stream of feedback has a much higher volume and starting with the quantity of feedback as a way to get eventually to quality of feedback as well.

我只是想确保我正在变得更好。”与你的经理达成的协议并允许他们向你提供反馈将确保反馈流具有更高的数量，并且从反馈的数量开始，以此作为最终获得反馈质量的一种方式。

Lenny: As you're talking, I'm thinking of the advice Jules Walter shared on this podcast a couple episodes ago of when you get feedback, no matter how it makes you feel, whether you're melting inside or not, just be very enthusiastically.

莱尼：正如你所说，我正在思考朱尔斯·沃尔特在几集前在这个播客上分享的建议，即当你收到反馈时，无论它让你感觉如何，无论你内心是否融化，只要非常热情。

Thank you so much for that.

非常感谢你。

That was really helpful.

这真的很有帮助。

Ravi Mehta: It's so key because then you've rewarded the person for giving you feedback, even if it hurts inside, and then they'll want to do it in the future.

拉维·梅塔：这非常关键，因为这样你就奖励了那些为你提供反馈的人，即使这会让你内心受伤，然后他们将来就会想要这样做。

Lenny: Yeah.

莱尼：是的。

Anything else that you want to touch on or share before we get to our very exciting lightning round?

在我们开始激动人心的闪电回合之前，您还有什么想谈或分享的吗？

Ravi Mehta: One of the challenges I hear PMs that are moving into leadership roles is they often worry about micromanaging their teams.

Ravi Mehta：我听说担任领导职务的产品经理面临的挑战之一是他们经常担心对团队进行微观管理。

And so I kind of see two failure modes for people that are taking on their first leadership role.

因此，对于第一次担任领导角色的人来说，我看到了两种失败模式。

The first one is that they do actually micromanage, and so they don't let the person on their team have the autonomy that they need to figure out a path forward.

第一个是他们实际上进行微观管理，因此他们不让团队中的人员拥有找出前进道路所需的自主权。

And there's two problems in that, one that really makes that person feel like you don't trust them.

这有两个问题，其中一个确实让那个人觉得你不信任他们。

The second thing is that rate limits the size of the team that you can manage because you can only do that for a finite set of people before you yourself are tapped out on bandwidth.

第二件事是，速率限制了您可以管理的团队的规模，因为在您自己的带宽被耗尽之前，您只能为有限的一组人员执行此操作。

And it's usually a couple of folks.

而且通常是几个人。

So that's one failure mode where people sort of treat their first direct reports as an extension of themselves.

因此，这是一种失败模式，人们将他们的第一个直接报告视为自己的延伸。

Ravi Mehta: The second failure mode that I commonly see is just a completely hands-off mode of leadership where a person assumes that the new person on their team, they trust them, they give them a lot of autonomy, but as part of that, they don't give them the context that they need.

拉维·梅塔：我常见的第二种失败模式是一种完全不干涉的领导模式，人们认为团队中的新人信任他们，给予他们很大的自主权，但作为其中的一部分，他们没有为他们提供所需的环境。

So that person may be able to be successful but may actually lack the guard rails and the frameworks to channel their efforts.

因此，这个人可能能够成功，但实际上可能缺乏引导他们努力的护栏和框架。

And so I think the right solution here is to say, actually micromanagement is not a bad thing.

所以我认为正确的解决方案是，实际上微观管理并不是一件坏事。

Some of the most innovative leaders in tech are famous micromanagers.

科技领域一些最具创新性的领导者都是著名的微观管理者。

Steve Jobs is a micromanager.

史蒂夫·乔布斯是一位事无巨细的管理者。

Elon Musk is a micromanager.

埃隆·马斯克是一位事无巨细的管理者。

Mark Zuckerberg's a micromanager.

马克·扎克伯格是一位事无巨细的管理者。

Ultimately as product builders and products innovators, the details matter and sometimes you need to zoom into what does the text on a particular button say, and you might have a strong opinion on that.

最终，作为产品构建者和产品创新者，细节很重要，有时您需要放大特定按钮上的文本内容，并且您可能对此有强烈的看法。

And so it's okay to engage at that level.

所以在这个级别上参与是可以的。

Ravi Mehta: I often encourage product leaders to think about their process of becoming more senior, not as a matter of getting more and more high level, but of increasing their dynamic range.

Ravi Mehta：我经常鼓励产品领导者思考他们变得更高级的过程，不是越来越高的水平，而是增加他们的动态范围。

So a CPO, it's not that a CPO never thinks about tactical issues, it's that they spend a lot of time on strategy, but they also can zoom into specific issues.

所以对于CPO来说，并不是CPO从不考虑战术问题，而是他们在战略上花费了大量的时间，但是他们也可以放大具体的问题。

And so a framework I like to use with product leaders that I'm coaching is to think about a matrix.

因此，我喜欢与我所指导的产品负责人一起使用的一个框架是思考一个矩阵。

Your ideal goal is to lead in a scalable way, which means you feel really confident about the direction of your team and your team has the autonomy to move in that direction.

您的理想目标是以可扩展的方式进行领导，这意味着您对团队的方向非常有信心，并且您的团队有朝这个方向前进的自主权。

Ravi Mehta: There's another really effective way of leading which is selective micromanagement, which if you don't feel confident in the direction that your team is moving, the right answer is not to be hands-off and to let them go in that wrong direction.

拉维·梅塔：还有另一种真正有效的领导方式，那就是选择性微观管理，如果你对团队前进的方向没有信心，正确的答案就是不要袖手旁观，让他们朝着错误的方向前进。

The right answer is to micromanage, but do it in a very tactical, in a very temporary way so that you can help them understand what is the right direction moving forward, so that you can then pull back.

正确的答案是微观管理，但要以一种非常战术性、非常临时的方式进行，这样你就可以帮助他们了解前进的正确方向是什么，这样你就可以撤退。

And the two failure modes are if you're hands-off and you let that team go off the rails, that hands-off mode of leadership might feel really good in the short term.

这两种失败模式是，如果你不干涉，让团队偏离轨道，那么这种不干涉的领导模式在短期内可能会感觉非常好。

It might help you avoid micromanaging in the short term, but ultimately it's going to mean that that team doesn't get to where they need to go.

它可能会帮助您在短期内避免微观管理，但最终这将意味着该团队无法到达他们需要去的地方。

Ravi Mehta: And then what we commonly think of as micromanagement, I think more of as micro mismanagement, which is you don't feel like you've got a sense of control or a sense of confidence about what the team's doing.

拉维·梅塔：我们通常认为的微观管理，我认为更多的是微观管理不善，即你感觉自己对团队正在做的事情没有控制感或信心。

The team doesn't feel like they have a sense of autonomy.

团队感觉他们没有自主感。

There's not a clear end in sight, and ultimately both the leader and the team are frustrated.

没有明确的结局，最终领导者和团队都感到沮丧。

So I think the two really effective functional ways of leading are scalable leadership where the team has autonomy, you have confidence or selective micromanagement where for a brief period of time you might take away some of the team's autonomy to set them on the right track, but with the goal of getting back into that scalable leadership mode.

因此，我认为两种真正有效的领导方式是可扩展的领导方式，团队拥有自主权，你有信心或有选择性的微观管理，在短时间内你可能会剥夺团队的一些自主权，让他们走上正确的轨道，但目标是回到可扩展的领导模式。

Lenny: I really like this topic.

莱尼：我真的很喜欢这个话题。

I feel like this could be a whole other thread.

我觉得这可能是另一个线程。

Maybe one quick question along these lines.

也许有一个简单的问题。

Would you call it selective micromanagement?

你会称之为选择性微观管理吗？

Lenny: Is there a heuristic you have in mind of just like what does that mean in practice?

莱尼：您是否有一个启发式的想法，就像这在实践中意味着什么一样？

Like one out of every 10 decisions, maybe you push them in a direction that you'd need them to go.

就像十分之一的决定一样，也许你将它们推向了你需要的方向。

How do you figure out what's selective enough or is there in your experience?

你如何判断什么是足够有选择性的或者在你的经验中存在的？

Ravi Mehta: I think it often comes down to being overly detailed at the moment that you see a problem.

拉维·梅塔：我认为这常常归结为在你发现问题时过于详细。

So helping the team get back on track by any means necessary, including potentially you're getting really detailed about the decisions that the team is making.

因此，通过任何必要的方式帮助团队回到正轨，包括可能你会真正详细地了解团队正在做出的决策。

But as you do that, think about the frameworks that you're using to help the team make decisions and help the team understand that framework.

但当您这样做时，请考虑您用来帮助团队做出决策并帮助团队理解该框架的框架。

And so over time, the goal is to replace you actively kind of going in and guiding the team's decisions with them having a framework that they really understand so that they can make the decisions that are aligned with where you think the right direction is to go.

因此，随着时间的推移，我们的目标是取代您积极参与并指导团队的决策，让他们拥有一个他们真正理解的框架，以便他们能够做出与您认为正确的方向一致的决策。

And the ultimate success is that you give enough of a framework and the team has enough autonomy that they get to answers that are even better than you could come up with.

最终的成功在于，您提供了足够的框架，并且团队拥有足够的自主权，他们可以得到比您能想出的更好的答案。

And so that gives the team an incredible feeling of power and that gives you as a leader an incredible feeling of confidence in the team's ability.

这会给团队带来令人难以置信的力量感，也让作为领导者的你对团队的能力产生难以置信的信心。

Lenny: Got it.

莱尼：明白了。

Yeah.

是的。

Well, this makes me think about it as a product leader.

嗯，这让我将其视为产品领导者。

Most of the time you need to push your team to do the thing that you believe is right, and maybe once in a while let them make a mistake and have them learn from it.

大多数时候，你需要推动你的团队做你认为正确的事情，也许偶尔让他们犯一个错误，让他们从中吸取教训。

But it's not the other way.

但事实并非如此。

It's not like, "Cool, let them make all the mistakes and once in a while correct." It's the opposite.

这不像是“酷，让他们犯所有错误，偶尔改正一下。”事实恰恰相反。

Your ass is on the line if they waste time and resources and fail.

如果他们浪费时间和资源却失败了，你的屁股就岌岌可危了。

So yeah, your job is to make sure they're heading in the right direction.

所以，是的，你的工作就是确保他们朝着正确的方向前进。

Ravi Mehta: There's another framework that we talk about in product leadership which goes into this topic, which is as someone who's working with a manager, there's kind of two things that you're constantly solving for.

拉维·梅塔：我们在产品领导力中讨论的另一个框架也涉及这个主题，即作为与经理一起工作的人，有两件事是你需要不断解决的。

One is the degree to which you're aligned with your manager, and the second is the degree to which your manager has confidence in you.

一是你与经理的配合程度，二是你的经理对你的信任程度。

And so if there's a high degree of alignment and a high degree of confidence, you have full support, but there might be cases where there's actually not a high degree of alignment.

因此，如果有高度的一致性和高度的信心，你就会得到全力支持，但在某些情况下，实际上并没有高度的一致性。

You want to go in a different direction than your manager wants to go in, but if you have their confidence, you'll get their permission, you'll get their support to go in that direction.

你想要走的方向与你的经理想要的不同，但如果你有他们的信心，你就会得到他们的许可，你就会得到他们的支持，朝着那个方向前进。

Ravi Mehta: And so keeping an idea of where you are on that radar is really helpful for understanding the currency that you have to be able to push things in the direction that you think is the right one.

拉维·梅塔：因此，了解自己在雷达上的位置对于理解货币确实很有帮助，因为您必须能够将事情推向您认为正确的方向。

And if you don't have your leader's confidence and you're not aligned with them, that's not a recipe for success.

如果你没有领导者的信任并且你与他们不一致，那么这并不是成功的秘诀。

One of those things needs to change.

其中一件事需要改变。

Either you need to do things that they are aligned with or you need to do things to win their confidence in your ability to pick a different path forward.

要么你需要做与他们一致的事情，要么你需要做一些事情来赢得他们对你选择不同前进道路的能力的信心。

Lenny: I like that.

莱尼：我喜欢这样。

One final tangential totally out of nowhere question.

最后一个完全无关紧要的问题。

I had on my notes that you've been doing some stuff with AI in your coaching work.

我在笔记中提到，您在教练工作中一直在使用人工智能做一些事情。

And so I wanted to ask you, how do you think AI will work with PMs and just coaches and us as, I don't know, professionals in the workplace?

所以我想问你，你认为人工智能将如何与项目经理、教练和我们这些工作场所的专业人士合作？

What have you found so far in your experience there?

到目前为止，您在那里的经历中发现了什么？

Ravi Mehta: So when we started Outpace, we knew that AI was going to continue to advance and that eventually we would want to think about AI as a way to amplify coaches and to help make them more efficient and more effective.

Ravi Mehta：因此，当我们创办 Outpace 时，我们知道人工智能将继续发展，最终我们希望将人工智能视为增强教练能力并帮助他们提高效率和效果的一种方式。

We thought that that was going to be a multi-year journey and that we would get to it at some point in the future.

我们认为这将是一个多年的旅程，我们会在未来的某个时候实现它。

But this year's been incredibly exciting with the advances that we've seen from OpenAI and Stable Diffusion and Midjourney and all of these different models.

但今年我们从 OpenAI、Stable Diffusion 和 Midjourney 以及所有这些不同模型中看到的进步令人难以置信。

[NEW_PARAGRAPH]And so we've actually accelerated a lot of our roadmap around that.

[NEW_PARAGRAPH]因此，我们实际上已经加快了围绕此的许多路线图。

We have an interesting opportunity to use AI in the product where one of the things that makes Outpace different from other coaching platforms is we provide both content as well as the coach.

我们有一个在产品中使用人工智能的有趣机会，Outpace 与其他教练平台的不同之处之一是我们既提供内容又提供教练。

And so each week a person will go through a 20 or 30-minute session.

因此，每周一个人都会进行 20 或 30 分钟的训练。

That session includes a brief audio lesson and then includes interactive exercises that go into how would you use the things that you just learned in that lesson.

该课程包括一个简短的音频课程，然后包括互动练习，了解您将如何使用您刚刚在该课程中学到的东西。

Ravi Mehta: And so one of the things that we have is we've got text content from all of the participants in Outpace where they're providing very specific answers to very specific questions.

Ravi Mehta：我们拥有的一件事是，我们从 Outpace 的所有参与者那里获得了文本内容，他们为非常具体的问题提供了非常具体的答案。

We're using that content to prompt, in this case, OpenAI, to give suggestions to the coach.

我们使用该内容来提示（在本例中为 OpenAI）向教练提供建议。

And so the coach can go in and say, "Help me with a suggestion of what I should say as feedback to this particular response." And then the coach can go in and tailor that based on what they know about that person.

所以教练可以进去说：“帮我提出一个建议，我应该说什么作为对这个特定反应的反馈。”然后教练可以根据他们对该人的了解进行调整。

And one of the most amazing things is we've been able to simulate different styles of leadership by using different types of prompts.

最令人惊奇的事情之一是我们能够通过使用不同类型的提示来模拟不同的领导风格。

So we can have suggestions that are really action oriented that provide lists of next steps.

因此，我们可以提出真正面向行动的建议，并提供后续步骤列表。

We can have suggestions that are more sympathetic that focus on the person's feelings.

我们可以提出更富有同情心、注重对方感受的建议。

We've got suggestions that are more inquisitive, which ask follow-up questions.

我们有一些更好奇的建议，其中提出了后续问题。

We've got suggestions which are informative, which provide frameworks and advice.

我们的建议内容丰富，提供了框架和建议。

Ravi Mehta: So it's really pretty remarkable how far the technology has come.

拉维·梅塔：这项技术的进步确实非常了不起。

I know we're at an interesting time right now.

我知道我们现在正处于一个有趣的时刻。

It's going to be interesting to see how things play out.

看看事情如何发展将会很有趣。

I think one of the most interesting things about it is not AI as a replacement for people, but AI as a way to amplify people and make them more effective.

我认为最有趣的事情之一不是人工智能作为人类的替代品，而是人工智能作为一种放大人类并提高他们效率的方式。

And I think we'll see a lot of that in terms of both image generation and text generation where it's less about AI doing all the work and more about AI providing a really good starting point.

我认为我们会在图像生成和文本生成方面看到很多这样的情况，其中人工智能不再是完成所有工作，而是人工智能提供了一个非常好的起点。

Lenny: I love the idea that people have these visions of where their product's going to go in five, 10 years, and the vision's happening so soon.

莱尼：我喜欢这样的想法：人们对他们的产品在五年、十年后的发展前景抱有愿景，而且这个愿景很快就会实现。

And that's got to feel nice, but then you got to rethink, "Oh my God, what's our new vision of the future at this pace?"

这感觉一定很好，但你必须重新思考，“天啊，按照这样的速度，我们对未来的新愿景是什么？”

Ravi Mehta: It's been really exciting.

拉维·梅塔：这真的很令人兴奋。

I haven't been this excited about tech in a long time.

我已经很久没有对科技如此兴奋了。

And I think it was, we knew we would need to pivot in order to embrace this more, but it completely makes sense and it fits really nicely into something that we're already doing.

我认为是的，我们知道我们需要进行调整才能更多地接受这一点，但这完全有道理，而且非常适合我们已经在做的事情。

Lenny: Well with that, we've reached our very exciting lightning round.

莱尼：好了，我们已经进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。

I've got six questions for you.

我有六个问题要问你。

I'm going to power through them and whatever comes to mind, just share it away.

我将通过它们提供力量，无论想到什么，都可以分享。

Sound good?

听起来不错吗？

Lenny: Cool.

莱尼：酷。

What are two or three books that you recommend most to other people?

您最向其他人推荐的两三本书是什么？

Ravi Mehta: I really like Hooked.

拉维·梅塔：我真的很喜欢《Hooked》。

That's a book that I know came out a few years ago, but I find that that model is just such an effective model for thinking about how to create products that are engaging.

我知道这是几年前出版的一本书，但我发现该模型对于思考如何创建有吸引力的产品来说是一个非常有效的模型。

I also really like Working Backwards.

我也非常喜欢逆向工作。

I think Amazon has such a unique way of going about building product, and they've been so opinionated about what matters within that process.

我认为亚马逊在构建产品方面有一种独特的方式，而且他们对于这个过程中重要的事情有着非常固执的看法。

It's great to get a really detailed window into that.

很高兴能够详细了解这一点。

I was always curious about how it worked, and Working Backwards was a great way too to understand that a lot better.

我总是对它是如何运作的感到好奇，而逆向工作也是一个很好的方式来更好地理解它。

Lenny: For folks that are interested in that, we had Ian McAllister on the podcast talking a lot about that stuff.

莱尼：对于对此感兴趣的人，我们让伊恩·麦卡利斯特在播客上谈论了很多这些东西。

So if you're interested in Working Backwards and don't want to read the book, there's a podcast episode for you.

因此，如果您对“逆向工作”感兴趣并且不想阅读这本书，那么有一个播客节目适合您。

Speaking of podcast, what's a favorite other podcast of yours other than the one you're currently on?

说到播客，除了您当前正在收听的播客之外，您最喜欢的其他播客是什么？

Ravi Mehta: Yeah.

拉维·梅塔：是的。

One of my favorites is The Ezra Klein Show.

我最喜欢的节目之一是《以斯拉·克莱因秀》。

I love the fact that he talks about a bunch of different topics.

我喜欢他谈论很多不同的话题。

He's often got contrarian points of view.

他经常有相反的观点。

He just had an episode recently about a skeptical take on AI that I disagreed with a lot, but it was really interesting to think about it from a different perspective.

他最近刚刚有一集关于对人工智能的怀疑态度，我非常不同意，但从不同的角度思考它真的很有趣。

Lenny: One of the best compliments I got about this podcast is someone telling me that they listened to these two podcasts as the only two podcasts they listen to, and they always have to pick one or the other when they're going in their morning walk.

莱尼：我对这个播客最好的赞美之一是有人告诉我，他们听的这两个播客是他们唯一听的两个播客，而且他们在早上散步时总是必须选择一个。

.

。

Ravi Mehta: You and I were talking a few months ago, and that's sort of the boat that I'm in.

拉维·梅塔（Ravi Mehta）：几个月前你和我谈过，这就是我所处的情况。

I've been listening to your podcast.

我一直在听你的播客。

I've been listening to Ezra Klein, and then there's a couple of others that are in the mix, but the ones that I keep going back to when I'm walking the dog are those two podcasts.

我一直在听 Ezra Klein，还有其他一些播客，但当我遛狗时，我不断回顾的就是这两个播客。

Lenny: Oh man.

莱尼：天啊。

It's not over yet.

事情还没有结束。

Next question.

下一个问题。

Favorite recent movie or TV show that you've really enjoyed?

您最近最喜欢的最喜欢的电影或电视节目？

Ravi Mehta: I love Andor.

拉维·梅塔：我爱安多。

I just finished watching it about a week ago.

我大约一周前刚刚看完。

I think it's not just a great Star Wars piece of content, it's just a really great piece of science fiction.

我认为这不仅仅是一部伟大的星球大战内容，它还是一部非常伟大的科幻小说。

I think a lot of science fiction has gotten very samey and very dystopian recently.

我认为最近很多科幻小说都变得非常千篇一律，而且非常反乌托邦。

This was such an interesting reflection of what's happening today, really deep thinking about what the future could look like, really good expansion of the universe.

这是对今天正在发生的事情的有趣反映，对未来会是什么样子进行了非常深入的思考，宇宙的膨胀非常好。

So it's just great on a lot of levels.

所以它在很多层面上都很棒。

Lenny: Frigging love Andor.

莱尼：该死的爱安多。

Huge plus one on that.

巨大的加一。

Favorite interview question that you like to ask.

您最喜欢问的面试问题。

Ravi Mehta: My favorite interview question is, tell me about a product that you love.

拉维·梅塔：我最喜欢的面试问题是，告诉我你喜欢的产品。

And I can have that question last five minutes.

我可以用五分钟的时间来问这个问题。

I can have that question last 60 minutes.

这个问题我可以问 60 分钟。

And so that's the first question that I'll typically ask people during a screening interview.

所以这是我在筛选面试时通常会问人们的第一个问题。

I use the word love very deliberately.

我非常刻意地使用“爱”这个词。

I want to see what products in their lives they really gravitate to and they engage with and that they can use that word with.

我想看看他们生活中的哪些产品真正被他们所吸引，他们参与其中，并且他们可以使用这个词。

That helps me understand a lot about what they value.

这帮助我更多地了解他们的价值。

And then I'll ask a whole series of questions, which is, why do you love it?

然后我会问一系列的问题，那就是，你为什么喜欢它？

Why do you think other people love it?

你认为为什么其他人喜欢它？

What would you like to see about it in the future?

未来您希望看到什么？

Pick a feature that you'd like to build for that product.

选择您想要为该产品构建的功能。

Why do you think that's a good feature?

为什么你认为这是一个好功能？

How would you measure the success of that feature?

您如何衡量该功能是否成功？

Ravi Mehta: So I've used this for years.

Ravi Mehta：所以我已经使用这个很多年了。

It's just such a good way to help understand the product sense that a person has, help get to know a person a little bit better.

这是一个很好的方式来帮助了解一个人的产品意识，帮助更好地了解一个人。

It's always interesting when people pick products that are more physical products to see what they're into in terms of hobbies and things of that sort.

当人们选择更实体的产品来看看他们的兴趣爱好和类似事物时，这总是很有趣的。

Lenny: What are five SaaS products that you use at your company or on your team?

Lenny：您在公司或团队中使用哪五种 SaaS 产品？

Ravi Mehta: Airtable has been amazing.

Ravi Mehta：Airtable 太棒了。

It's such a powerful tool.

这是一个非常强大的工具。

We just rebuilt our accounting system in Airtable.

我们刚刚在 Airtable 中重建了会计系统。

Webflow, we're using constantly.

Webflow，我们经常使用。

It's really changed how we think about building products.

它确实改变了我们对构建产品的看法。

We now ask, do we need to build code or can we do something in Webflow?

我们现在问，我们是否需要构建代码或者我们可以在 Webflow 中做一些事情吗？

We're using Superhuman.

我们正在使用超人。

I spend most of my day in Superhuman.

我一天的大部分时间都在《超人》中度过。

It's an incredibly fast email client, so I love having it on my team.

这是一个非常快的电子邮件客户端，所以我喜欢在我的团队中使用它。

A lot of the team today is using Descript or Descript to edit videos.

如今，团队中的许多人都在使用 Descript 或 Descript 来编辑视频。

They found that to be something that works so much better than prior audio and video editing solutions.

他们发现这比以前的音频和视频编辑解决方案效果要好得多。

And then I've always loved Balsamiq.

然后我一直很喜欢巴尔萨米克。

I've been a Balsamiq user for probably 10 years now, and whenever I get stuck on a user experience issue, I go in, I create some wireframes, and it always helps.

我成为 Balsamiq 用户大概有 10 年了，每当我遇到用户体验问题时，我就会进去创建一些线框图，它总是有帮助的。

Lenny: We use Descript/Descript, I also don't know how to pronounce it, on this podcast.

Lenny：我们在这个播客中使用 Descript/Descript，我也不知道如何发音。

So a huge recommend of that.

所以强烈推荐这一点。

Final question.

最后一个问题。

You are building a company that is helping people find coaches.

您正在建立一家帮助人们寻找教练的公司。

Do you have any tips for someone that is talking to a potential coach and what they should maybe ask them when they're trying to decide if it would be a good fit?

对于正在与潜在教练交谈的人以及他们在尝试决定是否合适时应该问他们什么问题，您有什么建议吗？

Ravi Mehta: Yeah.

拉维·梅塔：是的。

I think one of the questions that's really helpful is tell me about the client that you're most proud of helping.

我认为真正有用的问题之一是告诉我你最自豪帮助过的客户。

What was the challenge if they were facing?

如果他们面临什么挑战？

How did you help them meet that challenge?

您是如何帮助他们应对这一挑战的？

The person doesn't need to go into anything confidential, of course, but I think what's really nice about that question is it get you really deep insight into what they value.

当然，这个人不需要透露任何机密信息，但我认为这个问题的真正好处是它可以让你真正深入地了解他们所看重的东西。

You get to see where their pride comes from.

你会看到他们的骄傲从何而来。

It gives you insight into how they engage with the people that they're helping.

它可以让您深入了解他们如何与他们正在帮助的人互动。

And then you can understand, does that sort of map with what you're looking for in terms of a coach?

然后你就能明白，这种地图符合你正在寻找的教练吗？

Lenny: Ravi, this was everything I hoped it would be.

莱尼：拉维，这就是我所希望的一切。

I learned a lot.

我学到了很多。

I had a lot of fun.

我玩得很开心。

Two final questions.

最后两个问题。

Where can folks find you online if they want to learn more, and how can listeners be useful to you?

如果人们想了解更多信息，可以在哪里找到您？听众如何对您有用？

Ravi Mehta: My startup is Outpace.

Ravi Mehta：我的初创公司是 Outpace。

You can find it at outpace.co. We published a lot of free resources.

您可以在 outpac.co 上找到它。我们发布了很多免费资源。

We just published a resource that you helped us with, Lenny, called Unlock Your Product Manager Potential.

我们刚刚发布了您帮助我们使用的资源，Lenny，名为“释放您的产品经理潜力”。

We also have a Q and A service where you can ask questions of coaches.

我们还提供问答服务，您可以向教练提问。

Our goal with Outpace is to get more and more people to experience coaching, whether that's in an active coaching relationship or just a really quick conversation with a coach.

我们与 Outpace 的目标是让越来越多的人体验教练服务，无论是在积极的教练关系中还是只是与教练进行快速对话。

So come to outpace.co. That'll be really helpful for us and hopefully really helpful for you as well.

那么就来outpac.co吧。这对我们非常有帮助，希望对您也很有帮助。

And then if you want to follow me, I'm on LinkedIn.

如果你想关注我，我在 LinkedIn 上。

You can also read my writing at ravi-mehta.com.

您还可以在 ravi-mehta.com 上阅读我的文章。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

Ravi, again, thank you for being here, and we'll share all these in the show notes and all these links you mentioned.

拉维，再次感谢您来到这里，我们将在演出笔记和您提到的所有这些链接中分享所有这些内容。

Thanks again.

再次感谢。

Ravi Mehta: Yeah, thanks so much for having me.

拉维·梅塔：是的，非常感谢您邀请我。

This has been great.

这太棒了。

Lenny: Thank you so much for listening.

莱尼：非常感谢您的聆听。

If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcast, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.

如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcast、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.

您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。