Superhuman's secret to success | Rahul Vohra (CEO and founder)
Lenny Rachitsky: Let's talk about product market fit.
Lenny Rachitsky：我们来谈谈产品市场契合度。
Rahul Vohra: You have to deliberately not act on the feedback of many of your early users, and this is at the same time as listening to people intensely and building what people want.
Rahul Vohra：你必须刻意不根据许多早期用户的反馈采取行动，同时还要认真倾听人们的意见并构建人们想要的东西。
That's what we're here to do, is to make something that people want, but it can't be all people.
这就是我们来这里的目的，就是创造人们想要的东西，但不可能是所有人。
And the question becomes, how do you listen to them?
问题是，你如何倾听他们的意见？
And then even of what they say, what do you pay attention to and what don't you?
然后，即使他们说什么，你会注意什么，不注意什么？
The trick here is-
这里的技巧是——
Lenny Rachitsky: You're not doing what a lot of CEOs think they need to be doing with their time.
Lenny Rachitsky：你没有做很多首席执行官认为他们需要花时间做的事情。
A lot of CEOs think they need to spend time on hiring or org building and you intentionally, "I will spend time on product and marketing design."
许多首席执行官认为他们需要花时间在招聘或组织建设上，而你故意说，“我会花时间在产品和营销设计上。”
Rahul Vohra: This is a technique that I call the switch lock.
Rahul Vohra：这是一种我称之为开关锁的技术。
It's born out of the observation that your calendar says what you thought you were going to do, but it's really only your trail of work that describes what you actually did.
它源于这样的观察：你的日历显示了你认为你要做的事情，但实际上只有你的工作轨迹才能描述你实际做了什么。
How can we capture that?
我们怎样才能捕捉到这一点？
So I came up with the following idea.
所以我想出了以下想法。
What if I just did whatever the heck I wanted?
如果我只是做我想做的事怎么办？
Lenny Rachitsky: What's the most pivotal moment in your career, in your life?
Lenny Rachitsky：您职业生涯和生活中最关键的时刻是什么？
Rahul Vohra: I learned the real secret behind virality.
Rahul Vohra：我了解了病毒式传播背后的真正秘密。
There is no such thing as a truly viral product.
不存在真正的病毒式产品。
What then is the true secret?
那么真正的秘密是什么？
It is-
它是——
Lenny Rachitsky: Today my guest is Rahul Vohra.
Lenny Rachitsky：今天我的客人是 Rahul Vohra。
Rahul is the founder and CEO of Superhuman and one of the most thoughtful and insightful and articulate founders that I've met.
拉胡尔是 Super human 的创始人兼首席执行官，也是我见过的最有思想、最有洞察力、最善于表达的创始人之一。
As you'll see in our conversation, it's hard not to be captivated by Rahul's storytelling skills and also his really insightful takes on how to build great products and teams.
正如您将在我们的对话中看到的那样，很难不被 Rahul 的讲故事技巧以及他对如何构建出色的产品和团队的真正洞察力所吸引。
Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is for anyone who's looking to build their product taste, help their teams move faster, learn how to think better from first principles.
Lenny Rachitsky：本集适合任何想要打造自己的产品品味、帮助团队更快行动、学习如何根据第一原则更好地思考的人。
And also learn about Superhuman's very unique approach to building their company, including why they manually onboarded every single new user for years and why they decided to stop.
还要了解 Superhuman 非常独特的公司建设方法，包括为什么他们多年来手动引导每个新用户以及他们决定停止的原因。
Why they ignored most of their customer feedback on their way to finding product market fit, and also how you can use his approach to finding product market fit for your own company.
为什么他们忽略了大多数客户关于寻找产品市场契合度的反馈，以及您如何使用他的方法来寻找适合您自己公司的产品市场。
Also, the power of game design in building great products, a very contrarian take on pricing strategy, what Rahul has learned about building scaled products on top of AI and LLMs and so much more.
此外，游戏设计在打造出色产品方面的力量、定价策略上的逆向思维、拉胡尔在人工智能和法学硕士的基础上构建规模化产品所学到的知识等等。
Lenny Rachitsky: A huge thank you to Ed Sims, Conrad Irwin, Bell Trenchard and Gaurav Vohra for suggesting questions and topics for this conversation.
Lenny Rachitsky：非常感谢 Ed Sims、Conrad Irwin、Bell Trenchard 和 Gaurav Vohra 为本次对话提出的问题和主题。
If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube.
如果您喜欢这个播客，请不要忘记订阅并在您最喜欢的播客应用程序或 YouTube 中关注它。
Also, if you become a yearly subscriber of my newsletter, you get a year free of Superhuman that you can start using immediately.
另外，如果您成为我的时事通讯的年度订阅者，您将获得一年免费的 Superhuman，您可以立即开始使用。
You also get a year free of Notion, Perplexity Pro, Granola and Linear.
您还可以获得一年的免费 Notion、Perplexity Pro、Granola 和 Linear。
Check it out at lennysnewsletter.com.
请访问 lennysnewsletter.com 进行查看。
With that, I bring you Rahul Vohra.
接下来，我为您带来拉胡尔·沃拉 (Rahul Vohra)。
Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by Eppo.
Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 Eppo 为您带来。
Eppo is a next generation A/B testing and feature management platform, built by alums of Airbnb and Snowflake, for modern growth teams.
Eppo 是下一代 A/B 测试和功能管理平台，由 Airbnb 和 Snowflake 的校友为现代增长团队打造。
Companies like Twitch, Nero, ClickUp and DraftKings rely on Eppo to power their experiments.
Twitch、Nero、ClickUp 和 DraftKings 等公司依靠 Eppo 来支持他们的实验。
Experimentation is increasingly essential for driving growth and understanding the performance of new features, and Eppo helps you increase experimentation velocity while unlocking rigorous deep analysis in a way that no other commercial tool does.
实验对于推动增长和了解新功能的性能越来越重要，Eppo 可以帮助您提高实验速度，同时以其他商业工具无法做到的方式解锁严格的深度分析。
Lenny Rachitsky: When I was at Airbnb, one of the things that I loved most was our experimentation platform where I could set up experiments, easily, troubleshoot issues, and analyze performance all on my own.
Lenny Rachitsky：当我在 Airbnb 时，我最喜欢的事情之一就是我们的实验平台，我可以在其中轻松设置实验、解决问题并分析性能，一切都由我自己完成。
Eppo does all that and more, with advanced statistical methods that can help you shave weeks off experiment time and accessible UI for diving deeper into performance.
Eppo 可以做到这一切，甚至更多，它具有先进的统计方法，可以帮助您缩短数周的实验时间，并提供可访问的 UI，以便更深入地了解性能。
And out-of-the-box reporting that helps you avoid annoying prolonged analytic cycles.
开箱即用的报告可帮助您避免烦人的长时间分析周期。
Eppo also makes it easy for you to share experiment insights with your team, sparking new ideas for the A/B testing flywheel.
Eppo 还使您可以轻松地与您的团队分享实验见解，激发 A/B 测试飞轮的新想法。
EPO powers experimentation across every use case, including product, growth, machine learning, monetization, and email marketing.
EPO 支持每个用例的实验，包括产品、增长、机器学习、货币化和电子邮件营销。
Check out EPO at get epo.com/lenny and 10 x your experiment velocity.
请访问 get epo.com/lenny 查看 EPO，并选择 10 倍的实验速度。
That's geteppo.com/lenny.
那是 geteppo.com/lenny。
Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by the Fundrise Flagship Fund.
Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 Fundrise 旗舰基金为您带来。
Full disclosure, real estate investing is boring.
完全披露，房地产投资很无聊。
Prediction markets are exciting.
预测市场令人兴奋。
Meme coins are a thrill ride.
Meme 硬币是一次刺激的旅程。
Even the stock market can swing wildly on a headline.
即使是股市也会因头条新闻而剧烈波动。
Hello, DeepSeek.
你好，深思。
But with real estate investing, there's no drama or adrenaline or excuses to refresh your portfolio every few minutes, just bland and boring stuff like diversification and dividends.
但对于房地产投资来说，没有戏剧性、肾上腺素或借口每隔几分钟刷新你的投资组合，只有平淡无奇的东西，比如多元化和股息。
So you won't be surprised to learn that the Fundrise Flagship Real Estate Fund is a complete snooze fest.
因此，当您得知 Fundrise 旗舰房地产基金是一场彻底的瞌睡盛宴时，您不会感到惊讶。
Lenny Rachitsky: The fund holds $1.1 billion worth of institutional caliber real estate managed by team of pros focused on steadily growing your net worth for decades to come.
Lenny Rachitsky：该基金持有价值 11 亿美元的机构级房地产，由专业团队管理，专注于在未来几十年内稳步增长您的净资产。
See, boring.
瞧，无聊。
That's the point.
这就是重点。
You can start investing in minutes and with as little as $10 by visiting fundrise.com/lenny.
您只需访问fundrise.com/lenny，仅需几分钟即可开始投资，只需 10 美元。
Carefully consider the investment objectives, risks, charges, and expenses of the Fundrise Flagship Fund before investing.
投资前请仔细考虑 Fundrise 旗舰基金的投资目标、风险、费用和开支。
Find this information and more in the fund's prospectus at fundrise.com/flagship.
请访问fundrise.com/flagship，在该基金的招股说明书中查找此信息及更多信息。
This is a paid ad.
这是付费广告。
Lenny Rachitsky: Rahul, thank you so much for being here.
Lenny Rachitsky：拉胡尔，非常感谢你来到这里。
Welcome to the podcast.
欢迎来到播客。
Rahul Vohra: Hello, hello and thank you for having me Lenny.
Rahul Vohra：你好，你好，谢谢你邀请我，莱尼。
Lenny Rachitsky: I have so many questions for you.
Lenny Rachitsky：我有很多问题要问你。
We're going to have so much to talk about.
我们将会有很多话要谈。
I actually want to start with your time before Superhuman.
我实际上想从你在《超人》之前的经历开始。
When I was preparing for this chat, I actually asked you, what's the most pivotal moment in your career in your life?
当我准备这次聊天的时候，我其实问过你，你一生中职业生涯中最关键的时刻是什么？
And you told me that other than starting Superhuman, it was selling your previous company Rapportive to LinkedIn.
你告诉我，除了创办 Super human 之外，它还把你之前的公司 Rapportive 卖给了 LinkedIn。
So let me just start there.
那么让我从这里开始吧。
What was that experience like?
那是怎样的经历？
What do people not know about this phase in your life and just why was it so pivotal?
关于你生命中的这个阶段，人们有哪些不了解的事情？为什么它如此关键？
Rahul Vohra: So for folks that don't know, Rapportive was my last company.
Rahul Vohra：对于那些不知道的人来说，Rapportive 是我最后一家公司。
It was the first Gmail extension to scale to millions of users.
这是第一个可扩展到数百万用户的 Gmail 扩展程序。
Basically on the right-hand side of Gmail, we would show you what people look like, where they work, links to their recent tweets, their LinkedIn profile and everything else that they were doing online.
基本上，在 Gmail 的右侧，我们会向您展示人们的样子、他们在哪里工作、他们最近发布的推文的链接、他们的 LinkedIn 个人资料以及他们在网上所做的所有其他事情。
So if you were hiring, marketing, selling in BD, super useful.
因此，如果您在 BD 进行招聘、营销、销售，那么这非常有用。
It turns out we somehow attracted most of LinkedIn's daily active users onto this one free app, and I then ultimately ended up selling that to LinkedIn.
事实证明，我们以某种方式吸引了 LinkedIn 的大部分日常活跃用户使用这个免费应用程序，然后我最终将其卖给了 LinkedIn。
That by far, as you said, was the most pivotal thing I'd done in my career, prior to starting Superhuman.
正如你所说，这是迄今为止我在创办《超人》之前在职业生涯中所做的最关键的事情。
Rahul Vohra: Now, had I known that we'd amassed most of LinkedIn's active users onto one app, I would have sold it for far more.
Rahul Vohra：现在，如果我知道我们已经将 LinkedIn 的大部分活跃用户聚集到一款应用程序上，我就会以更高的价格出售它。
But the actual pivotal moment was really who I got to work with.
但真正的关键时刻是我要和谁一起工作。
Because I reported to LinkedIn's head of Growth, Elliot Shmukler.
因为我向 LinkedIn 的增长主管 Elliot Shmukler 汇报。
He was responsible for scaling LinkedIn from 25 million members to when I joined, north of 250 million members.
他负责将 LinkedIn 的会员人数从 2500 万扩大到我加入时的 2.5 亿。
And during my first one-on-one, I learned the real secret behind virality and big hint, it's not about viral mechanics.
在我的第一次一对一谈话中，我了解到病毒式传播背后的真正秘密和重要提示，这与病毒式传播机制无关。
Overall that acquisition experience gave me the time to figure out what was next and the resources to truly swing for the fences.
总的来说，这次收购经历让我有时间思考下一步该做什么，也让我有资源真正摆脱困境。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。
Well, I have to follow this thread that you put out there, what the secret is to virality.
好吧，我必须遵循您发布的这条线索，即病毒式传播的秘诀是什么。
What did you learn there?
你在那里学到了什么？
Rahul Vohra: Well, in my first one-on-one, I sat down with Elliot and I said, "Hey, I'm here to learn.
Rahul Vohra：嗯，在我的第一次一对一谈话中，我和 Elliot 坐下来，我说：“嘿，我来这里是为了学习。
Please teach me everything that you know about virality." And he said, "Okay.
请教我关于病毒式传播的一切知识。”他说：“好吧。
Well, hate to burst your bubble, but there is no such thing as a truly viral product." I said, "What do you mean?
好吧，我讨厌打破你的幻想，但真正的病毒产品是不存在的。”我说：“你什么意思？
How do you explain Facebook for that matter?
您如何解释 Facebook 的此事？
How do you explain LinkedIn?" And he said, "What I mean is, no app has sustained a viral factor of greater than one for any real period of time." Even Facebook in its heyday had a viral factor of about 0.7.
你如何解释LinkedIn？”他说：“我的意思是，在任何实际时间段内，没有任何应用程序能够保持超过 1 的病毒传播系数。”即使是鼎盛时期的 Facebook，病毒传播系数也只有 0.7 左右。
And he told me that lasted for perhaps a year, so one person was creating about 0.7 new users.
他告诉我，这种情况持续了大约一年，所以一个人创建了大约 0.7 个新用户。
Rahul Vohra: I double-clicked again and I said, "Well Elliot, what about the address book import?" This is one of the things that LinkedIn got famous or infamous for.
Rahul Vohra：我再次双击，然后说：“埃利奥特，地址簿导入怎么样？”这是 LinkedIn 出名或臭名昭著的事情之一。
You could import your address book and then it would spam slash invite everyone who happens to be members of LinkedIn in your address book, and then eventually it would just invite everyone to LinkedIn.
你可以导入你的地址簿，然后它会通过垃圾邮件邀请所有恰好是你地址簿中 LinkedIn 成员的人，最后它只会邀请每个人加入 LinkedIn。
And he said, "That's an amazing feature, but you have to remember not everyone is going to use it all the time." So even that feature had a lifetime viral factor of about 0.4, and that's considered good.
他说：“这是一个了不起的功能，但你必须记住，并不是每个人都会一直使用它。”因此，即使该功能的终身病毒传播系数约为 0.4，这也被认为是好的。
Rahul Vohra: 0.4 is good for a viral feature, 0.6 is great, something like 0.7 is absolutely incredible.
Rahul Vohra：0.4 对于病毒式传播功能来说是好的，0.6 很棒，像 0.7 这样的东西绝对令人难以置信。
You're in the stratosphere up with Facebook at that time.
那时你正处于 Facebook 的顶峰。
So I said, "Well, okay, all of these things by definition are going to Peter out.
所以我说：“好吧，从定义上来说，所有这些事情都会让彼得出去。
There's going to be an asymptote.
将会有一条渐近线。
None of these viral mechanics keep on compounding.
这些病毒机制都不会继续复合。
Which actually makes sense, it would be a little absurd if things just kept on growing.
这实际上是有道理的，如果事情继续增长，那就有点荒谬了。
What then is the true secret behind virality?" And he said, "It is word of mouth.
那么病毒式传播背后的真正秘密是什么？”他说：“这是口耳相传。
It is the virality you can't measure that isn't a mechanic that isn't in a feature.
无法衡量的病毒式传播并不是功能中的机制。
It is when one user spontaneously tells another user about your product." That really colored how I think about growth and virality.
这是当一个用户自发地告诉另一个用户你的产品时。”这确实改变了我对增长和病毒式传播的看法。
Since then, it has shaped so much of what we do at Superhuman and so much of how I think about growing brands.
从那时起，它在很大程度上影响了我们在 Super human 所做的事情，也影响了我对发展品牌的看法。
Lenny Rachitsky: Wow, you're such a great storyteller.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：哇，你真是一个伟大的讲故事的人。
I'm just listening here, just captivated, "What is he going to say next?" That was fascinating.
我只是在这里听着，只是着迷，“他接下来要说什么？”那真是令人着迷。
I actually have a post that I'm going to link to that, that very much aligns with what you're talking about, which is titled, Virality is a Myth mostly.
实际上，我有一篇文章要链接到该文章，该文章与您所谈论的内容非常一致，其标题为“病毒传播主要是一个神话”。
It's based, I forget, on this book where they do all this research on actual viruses.
我忘了，它是基于这本书，他们在书中对实际病毒进行了所有研究。
It turns out they're not actually spreading in this exponential way, there's one person that spreads it to a lot of people and it keeps happening.
事实证明，它们实际上并没有以这种指数方式传播，而是有一个人将其传播给很多人，而且这种情况一直在发生。
Lenny Rachitsky: That's actually apparently what the data shows.
Lenny Rachitsky：这实际上显然是数据所显示的。
I'm curious if you found this same thing, which is, when people think of an app as going viral, it's one person with a massive platform sharing it and their audience adopts it and that's just one to many and then it just happens a couple of times and it looks like it's going viral, but it's a person to many people, not many people to many people.
我很好奇你是否发现了同样的事情，也就是说，当人们认为一个应用程序像病毒一样传播时，它是一个人在一个巨大的平台上分享它，他们的受众采用它，这只是一对多，然后它只发生几次，看起来就像病毒一样，但它是一个人对很多人，而不是很多人对很多人。
Thoughts on that?
对此有何想法？
Rahul Vohra: Yeah, we've definitely found that there are whales, to use the gaming terminology, that one person is going to be responsible for inviting 25, 50, 100 people, and they may have various motivations for doing that.
Rahul Vohra：是的，我们确实发现有鲸鱼，用游戏术语来说，一个人将负责邀请 25、50、100 人，他们可能有各种动机这样做。
In Superhuman, as an individual subscriber, if you refer somebody else and they sign up, you both get a free month, which is a great incentive if you're paying out of pocket.
在《Super human》中，作为个人订阅者，如果您推荐其他人并且他们注册了，你们都将获得一个月的免费时间，如果您自付费用，这将是一个很大的激励。
Rahul Vohra: We have people who send many, many hundreds of invites and there are some people who essentially have free Superhuman for life now due to how many people they've invited.
Rahul Vohra：我们有人发出了很多、数百份邀请，而且有些人由于邀请了多少人，现在基本上终身拥有免费的超人。
But of course that incentive doesn't necessarily work inside of a company or inside of a team where ultimately it's the company paying for the product, so you have to then come up with new motivations for those people.
但当然，这种激励不一定在公司内部或团队内部有效，最终是公司为产品付费，所以你必须为这些人提出新的激励。
That's where there really isn't any substitute to having a genuinely multiplayer or a genuinely collaborative product.
这就是真正的多人游戏或真正的协作产品无可替代的地方。
That's one of the huge evolutions we've taken Superhuman through over the last, probably about two years.
这是我们在过去（可能大约两年）中为《超人》所经历的巨大变革之一。
Rahul Vohra: Early last year we launched what we call Superhuman 2.0.
Rahul Vohra：去年年初，我们推出了 Super human 2.0。
The basic idea is, we saw almost every single other app of note become collaborative by default, Figma, Notion, Loom.
基本想法是，我们看到几乎所有其他值得注意的应用程序都默认成为协作应用程序，Figma、Notion、Loom。
These are all multiplayer or collaborative by default.
默认情况下，这些都是多人游戏或协作游戏。
Yet email, the one tool that we all use more than anything else, even more than things like Slack, was still firmly stuck in its single-player origins.
然而，电子邮件这个我们使用得最多的工具，甚至比 Slack 之类的工具还要多，但它仍然牢牢地停留在单人游戏的起源上。
Lenny Rachitsky: I want to come back to something that you mentioned that I didn't come back to you that I think is really core to what you just shared, which is word of mouth being so important.
Lenny Rachitsky：我想回到你提到的我没有回复你的事情，我认为这是你刚才分享的真正核心内容，即口碑是如此重要。
People talk about all these viral features and sharing contact books and all these things.
人们谈论所有这些病毒式传播的功能并分享通讯录等等。
And your point is, that takes you to a place, but really what helps a consumer-ish product spread is word of mouth, people sharing with each other.
你的观点是，这会带你到一个地方，但真正帮助消费者产品传播的是口碑，人们互相分享。
Which, then the question is, how do you do that?
那么问题是，你如何做到这一点？
We're going to talk about a lot of things that you did to make Superhuman something people want to share, but in the end it's just making something people want to share.
我们将讨论你们为让《超人》成为人们想要分享的东西所做的很多事情，但最终它只是制作了人们想要分享的东西。
That's the definition almost.
几乎就是这个定义。
Then it's like, what makes people want to share stuff?
然后就像，是什么让人们想要分享东西？
It's amazing, it's helping them, something that is remarkable.
这太神奇了，它正在帮助他们，这是一件了不起的事情。
Rahul Vohra: Well, it turns out, because you mentioned remarkableness, that is one of our core company values.
Rahul Vohra：嗯，事实证明，因为你提到了卓越，这是我们公司的核心价值观之一。
If you think about what a company has to do, it has to grow.
如果你思考一家公司必须做什么，它就必须成长。
How do things grow?
事物如何生长？
Well, let's take Elliot's advice at face value, and I believe it's true, it's creating something that people share.
好吧，让我们从表面上接受艾略特的建议，我相信这是真的，它正在创造人们分享的东西。
You mentioned one way of doing it, which is something that people want to share.
您提到了一种方法，这是人们想要分享的方法。
There's actually another way, which is simply creating something remarkable, and you used that word, and that is one of the core values of Superhuman.
实际上还有另一种方式，就是简单地创造一些非凡的东西，你用了这个词，这就是超人的核心价值观之一。
Rahul Vohra: We have, create delight, create something that is so joyful that really truly brings people delight.
Rahul Vohra：我们创造快乐，创造一些令人快乐的东西，真正给人们带来快乐。
We have deliver remarkable quality, something that is so striking, so compelling and worthy of attention that people can't but help tell others about it.
我们提供了卓越的品质，这些品质如此引人注目、如此引人注目、值得关注，以至于人们情不自禁地向其他人讲述这一点。
Then we have build the extraordinary, which is a measure of the efficacy or the innovativeness of what we want to build.
然后我们就打造了非凡的产品，这是衡量我们想要打造的产品的功效或创新性的标准。
That's another trick, which is literally baking these raw ingredients for growth into your company values.
这是另一个技巧，实际上就是将这些原材料烘焙成你公司的价值观。
Lenny Rachitsky: I didn't know that was one of your values.
Lenny Rachitsky：我不知道这是你的价值观之一。
That makes so much sense.
这很有道理。
Okay, we're going to come back to that, because I think that is...
好吧，我们会回到这个话题，因为我认为那是......
There's so much to learn about how you think about product and how you think about building the company that builds the product.
关于你如何看待产品以及你如何看待建立生产产品的公司，有很多东西需要了解。
But I want to actually start here with how this conversation came to be.
但我想真正从这次谈话是如何开始的开始。
Lenny Rachitsky: The CEO of Product Hunt, Rajiv, tweeted months ago, he tweeted this and we're going to show this if you're on YouTube, "Superhuman's product velocity feels like it's kicked into another gear as of late.
Lenny Rachitsky：Product Hunt 的首席执行官 Rajiv 几个月前在推特上发了一条推文，如果您在 YouTube 上，我们将向您展示这一点，“Super human 的产品速度感觉最近已经进入了另一个档位。
Does anyone else notice this?" I saw that, I'm like, "I completely have noticed this.
还有其他人注意到这一点吗？”我看到了，我想，“我完全注意到了这一点。
It feels like there's just feature shipping left and right, AI this, AI that.
感觉就像左右都有功能传送，人工智能这个，人工智能那个。
It feels like it's just a new company." And I tagged you on the tweet.
感觉就像是一家新公司。”我在推特上标记了你。
I'm like, "Hey Rahul, what's changed?" And you answered with a few things and it just made it clear there's a lot to learn about what you did.
我说，“嘿拉胡尔，有什么变化吗？”您回答了一些问题，这清楚地表明您所做的事情有很多值得学习的地方。
Lenny Rachitsky: Because a lot of companies are in this phase of just, "Things aren't moving as fast as we want.
Lenny Rachitsky：因为很多公司都处于这个阶段，“事情进展得没有我们想要的那么快。
We used to be so much faster, we used to ship all these features and now we don't." So I think this is a really cool real case study illustrative example that we can analyze.
我们过去的速度要快得多，我们曾经提供所有这些功能，但现在却没有。”所以我认为这是一个非常酷的真实案例研究说明性示例，我们可以进行分析。
So let me ask you this, what did you notice that told you something needed to change at Superhuman?
那么让我问你，你注意到什么告诉你 SuperHuman 需要做出改变？
And then what did you change that actually had the most impact on your ability to ship and move faster?
那么，您所做的哪些更改实际上对您更快地交付和移动的能力影响最大？
Rahul Vohra: I think what we noticed was this sentiment, and we felt it first ourselves, but we also started hearing it from the market, from our users, from our customers, that we'd slowed down.
Rahul Vohra：我认为我们注意到的是这种情绪，我们首先感受到了这一点，但我们也开始从市场、我们的用户、我们的客户那里听到，我们已经放慢了脚步。
And as a founder, as a CEO, that's the absolute last thing you want to hear.
作为创始人、首席执行官，这绝对是你最不想听到的事情。
It's our job after all to speed things up.
毕竟加快速度是我们的工作。
When I ask people what do they mean by slowing down, they didn't mean the product, of course, the product wasn't working any slower, but that the pace of delivery seemed to have slowed down.
当我问人们放慢速度是什么意思时，他们指的并不是产品，当然，产品的运行速度并没有变慢，而是交付的速度似乎放慢了。
Rahul Vohra: I think to break this down, it's important to start by defining what we mean by a slowdown.
Rahul Vohra：我认为要解决这个问题，首先要定义我们所说的放缓是什么意思，这一点很重要。
There's the kind of slowdown that is unavoidable in certain spaces, and then there is the kind of slowdown that is quite avoidable.
在某些领域，有些减速是不可避免的，而有些减速是完全可以避免的。
We actually had both.
我们实际上两者都有。
So starting with unavoidable slowdown, you can classify anything that you build in a company into one of two categories, solution deepening and market widening.
因此，从不可避免的放缓开始，您可以将公司中构建的任何内容分为两类之一：解决方案深化和市场拓宽。
Now, solution deepening means making your product better for its existing users, but not making it available to more users.
现在，解决方案深化意味着让您的产品更适合现有用户，但不是让更多用户可以使用它。
Whereas market widening means making your product available to more users, but not making the product itself any better.
而市场拓宽意味着让您的产品可供更多用户使用，但不会使产品本身变得更好。
Rahul Vohra: There are some spaces, there are some markets, there are some platforms where market widening is really fast and really easy, and there are some spaces, email is one of them where market widening is really hard and really slow.
Rahul Vohra：有一些空间，有一些市场，有一些平台的市场拓展非常快而且非常容易，而有一些空间，电子邮件就是其中之一，市场拓展非常困难而且非常慢。
But when we started we had a great deal of focus.
但当我们开始时，我们有很多重点。
We only supported Gmail, we were only on the web.
我们只支持 Gmail，我们只在网络上。
In those early years, we could pour every ounce of R&D energy, every engineering dollar, into solution deepening, making the product better for existing users.
早些年，我们可以将每一盎司的研发精力、每一分工程资金都投入到解决方案的深化上，让产品更好地服务于现有用户。
And of course users loved it.
当然，用户也喜欢它。
It's how we got to product market fit.
这就是我们如何获得适合市场的产品。
It's how most startups do.
大多数初创公司都是这样做的。
Rahul Vohra: But at a certain point, almost every company then has to start investing in widening the market.
Rahul Vohra：但在某个时刻，几乎每家公司都必须开始投资扩大市场。
For example, the market of people who will use a new Gmail front end but without a mobile app, does exist, but it is relatively small.
例如，使用新的 Gmail 前端但没有移动应用程序的市场确实存在，但相对较小。
This is something that every new email startup is going to learn sooner or later.
这是每个新的电子邮件初创公司迟早都会学到的东西。
In order to keep on growing, you are going to have to need to add an iOS app and then a MacOS app, and then a Windows app, and then an Android app.
为了继续增长，您将需要添加一个 iOS 应用程序，然后是 MacOS 应用程序，然后是 Windows 应用程序，然后是 Android 应用程序。
Then you'll soon want to support Office 365.
那么您很快就会想要支持 Office 365。
But that's not one thing, that's actually three things, because you have to support Office 365 on desktop and then on iOS and then on Android.
但这不是一件事，实际上是三件事，因为你必须在桌面上支持 Office 365，然后在 iOS 上支持，然后在 Android 上支持。
That's all much easier said than done.
这说起来容易做起来难。
Rahul Vohra: I think we at Superhuman now know things about these APIs that literally no other company knows, and I would not wish it upon my worst enemy.
Rahul Vohra：我认为我们 Super human 现在知道有关这些 API 的事情，而其他公司实际上不知道这些事情，我不希望我最大的敌人也知道这些事情。
So fast-forward to today, and Superhuman now works wherever you do on every combination of Gmail, Outlook, Mac, Windows, Web, iOS, Android, and this actually turns out to be a really great technology moat.
快进到今天，无论您在 Gmail、Outlook、Mac、Windows、Web、iOS、Android 的每个组合上进行操作，Super human 都可以工作，这实际上是一条非常伟大的技术护城河。
Almost no other email app can claim this.
几乎没有其他电子邮件应用程序可以声称这一点。
It's taken many years of intense investment.
这需要多年的大量投资。
I think we'll touch on this later, but it's one of the main reasons why we can sell into the enterprise, because we now know everyone can use it.
我想我们稍后会谈到这一点，但这是我们可以向企业销售的主要原因之一，因为我们现在知道每个人都可以使用它。
Rahul Vohra: But this is the hard part, when you're doing that market widening, you're not solution deepening, so your perceived product velocity may decrease.
Rahul Vohra：但这是困难的部分，当你扩大市场时，你并没有深化解决方案，因此你感知的产品速度可能会降低。
You can avoid some of these things with some smart technology decisions, but mostly you just have to grind through it, and it is worth it to get to the other side.
你可以通过一些明智的技术决策来避免其中的一些事情，但大多数情况下你只需要克服它，到达另一边是值得的。
Then there's the kind of slowdown that is avoidable.
然后是一种可以避免的经济放缓。
If I remember my answer to Rajiv's tweet, that was the kind I was talking about.
如果我记得我对拉吉夫推文的回答，那就是我所说的那种。
In that case it was our management structure, or who does what.
在这种情况下，问题在于我们的管理结构，或者谁做什么。
Rahul Vohra: When we hired our initial executive teams, I followed very conventional wisdom.
Rahul Vohra：当我们聘请最初的管理团队时，我遵循了非常传统的智慧。
I ended up with a set of VPs and eight, I think direct reports, maybe even nine.
我最终得到了一组副总裁和八名直接下属，我认为甚至可能是九名。
I thought that's what you were meant to do.
我以为这就是你应该做的。
That's how startups are meant to scale.
这就是初创公司扩大规模的方式。
But as anyone who's been there knows, eight direct reports is a lot.
但凡是去过那里的人都知道，八个直接下属已经很多了。
It's a lot of hiring, it's a lot of goal setting, it's a lot of OKRs, it's a lot of accountability conversations, and fortunately also it's a lot of firing.
需要大量的招聘、大量的目标设定、大量的 OKR、大量的责任对话，幸运的是，还需要大量的解雇。
No CEO ever gets their executive team right on the first try.
没有哪个首席执行官能够在第一次尝试时就让他们的执行团队做好准备。
That time I had for the things that I think I can genuinely be world-class at things like product and design and technology and marketing, that all began to rapidly disappear, and as a result the organization began to slow down.
那段时间我认为我可以在产品、设计、技术和营销等方面真正成为世界一流的东西，但所有这些都开始迅速消失，结果组织开始放慢速度。
Rahul Vohra: Unfortunately, I was also tracking my time very closely, I had this crazy way of tracking it.
Rahul Vohra：不幸的是，我也非常密切地跟踪我的时间，我用这种疯狂的方式来跟踪它。
At one point I noticed I was spending six to 7% of my week on these areas, these areas where I can truly be world-class at.
有一次，我注意到我每周花 6% 到 7% 的时间在这些领域，在这些领域我可以真正成为世界级的。
So I had two realizations.
所以我有两个认识。
Number one, as CEO, once you get to a certain scale, and we were definitely at that scale, you can actually define what you want the role of a CEO to be at your company.
第一，作为首席执行官，一旦你达到了一定的规模，而我们确实达到了这个规模，你实际上可以定义你希望首席执行官在你的公司中扮演的角色。
And number two, the Superhuman opportunity deserves everyone who works at the company to spend as much time as possible in their zone of genius, so that includes me as well as everybody else.
第二，超人的机会值得在公司工作的每个人都花尽可能多的时间在他们的天才领域，所以这包括我和其他人。
What I did is, I hired a really great president, I went from eight direct reports to two, and the amount of time that I spend on product design, technology and marketing went up from six to 7% to about 60% to 70% of my week.
我所做的是，我聘请了一位非常出色的总裁，我的直接报告从八名减少到两名，我花在产品设计、技术和营销上的时间从每周的 6% 到 7% 增加到大约 60% 到 70%。
Lenny Rachitsky: Just to mirror back a few things.
Lenny Rachitsky：只是为了反映一些事情。
One is, people may feel like you are not shipping as much as you used to because you're actually building things they don't care about, which is support for office and all these things that they don't need, but the business needs to expand, integrations with Microsoft and Android and all these things.
一是，人们可能会觉得你的交付量不如以前，因为你实际上正在构建他们不关心的东西，即对 Office 的支持以及所有这些他们不需要的东西，但业务需要扩展，与 Microsoft 和 Android 的集成以及所有这些东西。
I think that's such a good point, that it looks like nothing's happening when there's a lot of good stuff happening for other users that aren't you.
我认为这是一个很好的观点，当除了您之外的其他用户发生了很多好事时，看起来好像什么也没有发生。
Lenny Rachitsky: Then there's this point about people delegate.
Lenny Rachitsky：还有关于人员委托的一点。
Then a leader of delegates, hires all these execs and they're like, "This is not what I wanted.
然后，一位代表领袖雇佣了所有这些高管，他们会说：“这不是我想要的。
Why have I done this?" And you think it's going to speed up, but it slows down.
我为什么要这么做？”你以为它会加速，但它却减慢了。
A couple threads here that are really interesting.
这里有几个非常有趣的主题。
One is this time tracking thing, I need to know how do you do this?
一是这次跟踪的事情，我需要知道你是如何做到这一点的？
The fact that you knew seven to 8% or whatever the number is, to that granularity of your time you're spending on things you wanted was that low, how do you do time tracking?
事实上，你知道 7% 到 8% 或任何数字，你花在你想要的事情上的时间粒度是如此之低，你如何进行时间跟踪？
Let's not go super far, but just what's your approach?
我们不要走得太远，但你的方法是什么？
Rahul Vohra: This is a technique that I call the Switch log.
Rahul Vohra：我将这种技术称为 Switch log。
It's born out of the observation that your calendar says what you thought you were going to do, but it's really only your trail of work that describes what you actually did.
它源于这样的观察：你的日历显示了你认为你要做的事情，但实际上只有你的工作轨迹才能描述你实际做了什么。
So how can we capture that?
那么我们怎样才能捕捉到这一点呢？
And actually, how can we create a system of work that isn't tethered to a calendar, where you aren't at the behest of what some timetable says you do or you don't have to do?
实际上，我们如何才能创建一个不受日历束缚的工作系统，让你不受某些时间表规定你要做或不必做的事情的影响？
So I came up with the following idea, what if I just did whatever the heck I wanted?
所以我想出了以下想法，如果我只是做我想做的事怎么办？
What if every single time I change task I just Slack DM'd my EA, but this also works in Slackbot, it just has to go somewhere.
如果每次我改变任务时，我只是 Slack DM 了我的 EA，但这也适用于 Slackbot，它只需要去某个地方就好了。
I Slack DM'd my EA and I said, "TS:," and then a few words for the task I was doing.
我通过 Slack DM 发送了我的 EA，然后说“TS：”，然后就我正在做的任务说了几句话。
Rahul Vohra: Well, that would create certain changes.
Rahul Vohra：嗯，这会带来一定的变化。
Instead of having to constantly look at the calendar and think, "Oh, should I stop this task, start that task, I can just do what I want." If what I feel right now is, "Oh boy, I really need to prepare for Lenny's podcast, I'll go ahead and do that." And if I get bored or distracted eight minutes in, which sometimes happens because something else just bubbles up to the top of my mind, well, there's a reason that my body is bubbling it up to the top of my mind.
而不必不断地查看日历并思考：“哦，我应该停止这个任务，开始那个任务，我可以做我想做的事情。”如果我现在的感觉是，“天哪，我真的需要为莱尼的播客做准备，我会继续做的。”如果我在八分钟内感到无聊或分心，有时会发生这种情况，因为其他事情突然浮现在我的脑海中，那么，我的身体将它浮到我的脑海中是有原因的。
I also practice transcendental meditation, so I'm very keen on the idea of being aware and listening to what's bubbling up.
我也练习超然冥想，所以我非常热衷于意识到并倾听正在冒泡的事情。
Rahul Vohra: So it's okay for me to then go and attend to that thought as opposed to start to expend my focus points or my discipline or willpower on the thing that I thought I was meant to be doing.
Rahul Vohra：所以我可以去关注这个想法，而不是开始将我的焦点、我的纪律或意志力花在我认为我应该做的事情上。
All I'd have to do is I'd go back to Slack, "TS: Dealing with this other thing." And by the way, you should obviously turn up for your meetings.
我所要做的就是回到 Slack，“TS：处理其他事情。”顺便说一句，您显然应该出席会议。
I'm not saying just blow through your meetings and not turn up for your one-on-ones.
我并不是说只参加会议而不参加一对一的会议。
Definitely do those things.
一定要做这些事情。
What I'm saying is, do what feels right for as long as it feels right to do.
我的意思是，只要感觉正确，就做感觉正确的事。
Then at the end of the week you can see where your time is going.
然后在周末你就可以看到你的时间都花在哪里了。
Rahul Vohra: I realized at one point that I was spending only in those days 5% of my time on recruiting, whereas perhaps I should be spending 20 or 30% or more of my time on recruiting.
Rahul Vohra：我曾经意识到，当时我只花了 5% 的时间在招聘上，而也许我应该花 20%、30% 或更多的时间在招聘上。
But the biggest thing was, I saw I was only spending six to 7% of my time on product, on design, on technology and marketing.
但最重要的是，我发现我只花了 6% 到 7% 的时间在产品、设计、技术和营销上。
These are things where I know I'm really good at them.
我知道我真的很擅长这些事情。
I should either be teaching people how to do them or doing them or some combination of both.
我应该要么教人们如何做，要么自己做，或者两者结合。
That's probably the best thing for me.
这对我来说可能是最好的事情。
It keeps me really happy, very joyful, it keeps me sharp, but it's also scaling the organization.
它让我真的很开心，非常快乐，它让我保持敏锐，而且它也扩大了组织的规模。
So that's how we had that kind of an insight.
这就是我们如何获得这种洞察力的。
Once you have this Slack Log, you can then graph it and chart it and see where your time is actually going.
一旦你有了这个 Slack 日志，你就可以将它绘制成图表并绘制图表，看看你的时间实际去哪儿了。
Lenny Rachitsky: How cool.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太酷了。
Clearly this is an app opportunity or an agent opportunity where you're just telling this thing every time.
显然，这是一个应用程序机会或代理机会，您每次都只是告诉这件事。
It's essentially tracking context, which we're always hearing, try not to avoid context which switches.
它本质上是跟踪上下文，我们总是听到，尽量不要避免上下文切换。
Rahul Vohra: I think context switches are fine.
Rahul Vohra：我认为上下文切换很好。
There's definitely this idea that, for every interruption you have, the brain does take roughly 21 minutes on average to recover, to get back to the efficacy before that you were disturbed.
确实有这样一种观点，即每次受到干扰时，大脑平均需要大约 21 分钟才能恢复，才能恢复到受到干扰之前的效率。
It's a big deal, of course, I'm building productivity software, we designed Superhuman to minimize the amount of distraction and disruption that's possible within the app.
当然，这是一件大事，我正在构建生产力软件，我们设计 Superhuman 是为了最大限度地减少应用程序中可能出现的干扰和干扰。
But if you are working on something and at the back of your mind something bubbles up, you have to attend to it in one way or the other.
但如果你正在做某件事，而你的脑海里突然浮现出一些东西，你就必须以这样或那样的方式处理它。
Sometimes I just write it down, actually, I don't have my notebook with me, but it's really big.
有时我只是写下来，其实我没有带笔记本，但它真的很大。
I have a gigantic, whatever twice the size of A4 is, I guess A3 sketchbook and I always have a 4H pencil, so whenever one of those thoughts comes up, I just scribble it down.
我有一本巨大的，无论大小是 A4 的两倍，我猜是 A3 素描本，而且我总是有一支 4H 铅笔，所以每当这些想法出现时，我就会把它写下来。
Or I actually stop what I'm doing and I attend to that task, because there's a reason it's bubbling up right now.
或者我实际上停止了我正在做的事情并专注于这项任务，因为它现在冒出来是有原因的。
Lenny Rachitsky: I love that you know exactly the type of paper and pencil, 4H pencil, A3 paper, .
Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢你确切地知道纸张和铅笔的类型，4H 铅笔，A3 纸，.
Okay, this is going to be a theme.
好吧，这将是一个主题。
You mentioned meditation, you said you do TM, so you do 20 minutes in the morning, 20 minutes...
你提到冥想，你说你TM，所以你早上就做20分钟，20分钟……
Do you do it that style or you do a longer session?
你会这样做还是会做更长的时间？
Rahul Vohra: I do about half an hour in the morning, including rest time.
Rahul Vohra：我早上锻炼大约半个小时，包括休息时间。
The physical rest component of it is very important to me.
其中的身体休息部分对我来说非常重要。
So it's 20 minutes of the actual meditation, then 10 minutes of rest.
所以这是 20 分钟的实际冥想，然后是 10 分钟的休息。
I do that in the morning as well as in the afternoon at around 3:00 PM
我早上和下午 3:00 左右都会这样做
Lenny Rachitsky: And you just carve that out in your calendar.
Lenny Rachitsky：你只需将其刻在你的日历中即可。
Everyone knows Rahul at three o'clock, he's going to be out.
每个人都知道拉胡尔三点钟就会出去。
Rahul Vohra: Absolutely.
拉胡尔·沃拉：当然。
My EA knows, they're the one who's organizing the calendar and making sure things happen when they need to happen.
我的 EA 知道，他们负责组织日历并确保事情在需要时发生。
They also know that nothing can override this TM block.
他们还知道没有任何东西可以覆盖这个 TM 块。
Without it I genuinely start to fall apart.
没有它，我真的开始崩溃。
But with it, I'm able to access some very deep competencies that I didn't have before.
但有了它，我能够获得一些我以前没有的非常深入的能力。
I've been doing this now for about four or five years, and initially I simply felt happier, occasionally even more euphoric coming out of a really great meditation session.
我这样做已经有四五年了，最初我只是感到更快乐，有时甚至在一次真正伟大的冥想课程中感到更加欣快。
But over time I found that my ability to focus was increasing.
但随着时间的推移，我发现我集中注意力的能力正在增强。
I could hold attention on something for much longer, but I also was able to become much more creative and much more expressive.
我可以更长时间地关注某件事，但我也能够变得更有创造力和表现力。
Rahul Vohra: These are well-known side effects, as it were, or intended effects for some people of TM.
Rahul Vohra：这些是众所周知的副作用，或者说是对某些 TM 患者的预期效果。
And interestingly about TM, if you compare it to other forms of meditation, they don't have quite the same impact across quite as many executive functions.
有趣的是，如果你将 TM 与其他形式的冥想进行比较，就会发现它们对许多执行功能的影响并不完全相同。
So there's something particularly interesting that's going on with transcendental meditation as opposed to other forms that folks are still trying to unravel and figure out.
因此，与人们仍在试图解开和弄清楚的其他形式相比，超验冥想正在发生一些特别有趣的事情。
Lenny Rachitsky: If folks want to, if they're inspired and they want to check out this form of meditation, any advice on where they could go learn?
Lenny Rachitsky：如果人们想要，如果他们受到启发并且想要尝试这种形式的冥想，有什么关于他们可以去哪里学习的建议吗？
Rahul Vohra: Absolutely, a lot.
Rahul Vohra：当然，很多。
But in summary, have a coach teach you.
但总而言之，请教练来教你。
I had many false starts myself with meditation, trying the various apps, learning from books.
我自己在冥想、尝试各种应用程序、从书中学习方面有很多错误的开始。
None of it really worked for me.
这些对我来说都没有真正的作用。
What worked was having one-on-one teaching from someone themselves who had been taught one-on-one the Yogic or the Raja tradition of teaching.
有效的方法是由曾经接受过一对一瑜伽或拉贾传统教学的人进行一对一教学。
This person in particular had also been a venture-backed founder multiple times over, so they're very well aware of the kinds of stresses that I tend to be under.
特别是这个人也曾多次担任风险投资支持的创始人，因此他们非常清楚我往往承受的压力。
And all of his clients are mostly in technology as well.
他的所有客户也大多是技术领域的。
If you're in the Bay Area, this person's name is Laurent Valasek.
如果您在湾区，这个人的名字是 Laurent Valasek。
They run an institution called the Peak Leadership Institute.
他们经营着一个名为“巅峰领导力学院”的机构。
And this is all about how we can live a more integrated and whole life.
这就是我们如何才能过上更加完整和完整的生活。
Integrating wellness practices like meditation, but for the purpose of unlocking peak performance in life and in business.
整合冥想等健康实践，但目的是释放生活和商业中的最佳表现。
Lenny Rachitsky: Thank you for sharing that.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：谢谢您分享这一点。
That is very actionable.
这是非常可操作的。
We're going to link to that in the show notes.
我们将在演出笔记中链接到该内容。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。
I'm going to try to bring us back on course.
我会努力让我们回到正轨。
The other thing you mentioned that I think is really interesting is hiring a president.
你提到的另一件事我认为非常有趣的是聘请一位总统。
A lot of founders and leaders might be hearing this and be like, "Going from eight reports and doing all these things I don't want to, spending most of my time on the product and design and marketing, amazing." What did this president take off your plate and what is their responsibility and that allowed you to do the stuff you wanted to do?
许多创始人和领导者可能会听到这样的话，“从八份报告开始，做所有这些我不想做的事情，把大部分时间花在产品、设计和营销上，太棒了。”这位总统从你的盘子里拿走了什么？他们的责任是什么？这让你可以做你想做的事情？
Rahul Vohra: The biggest thing was taking off the operations and the management of the executive team and the rest of the company.
Rahul Vohra：最重要的是取消执行团队和公司其他部门的运营和管理。
Think of the president role in Superhuman as an operationally extremely challenging and a very growthful role.
将《超人》中的总裁角色视为一个在操作上极具挑战性且非常有成长性的角色。
It is perfect for someone who wants to go on to be a CEO in their next role.
对于那些想要继续担任下一个职位的首席执行官的人来说，这是完美的选择。
Instead of hiring and firing that team, instead of managing and setting their goals, instead of the accountability conversations, someone else who's now doing that.
不是雇用和解雇该团队，不是管理和设定他们的目标，不是进行问责对话，而是其他人现在正在这样做。
Rahul Vohra: In addition, because that's not the only job, in addition, they're also a very strong thought partner when it comes to corporate strategy.
Rahul Vohra：此外，因为这不是唯一的工作，此外，在企业战略方面，他们也是非常强大的思想合作伙伴。
When it comes to, where do we take act one, our email product?
说到第一幕，我们的电子邮件产品在哪里？
How far do we go down the multiplayer path?
我们在多人游戏的道路上走了多远？
How aggressively should we lean into AI?
我们应该如何积极地投入人工智能？
What's a reasonable gross margin in a world with AI?
在人工智能的世界里，合理的毛利率是多少？
Are we from a financial perspective okay dipping now and then coming back later?
从财务角度来看，我们现在可以先下跌，然后再回来吗？
When should we start building our second product?
我们应该什么时候开始构建我们的第二个产品？
How do we think about our R&D strategy?
我们如何看待我们的研发策略？
Should we keep on hiring in the Bay Area, or as we've done for many of our recent hires, should we continue hiring in Latin America?
我们是否应该继续在湾区招聘，或者像我们最近招聘的许多员工一样，我们应该继续在拉丁美洲招聘吗？
Should we consider other time zones as well?
我们是否也应该考虑其他时区？
And so on and so on and so on.
等等等等。
I'm just randomly coming up with questions, but the list is truly endless.
我只是随机提出问题，但问题清单确实是无穷无尽的。
Rahul Vohra: Another way to think about it is, it's almost like a grown-up co-founder.
Rahul Vohra：另一种思考方式是，它几乎就像一个成年的联合创始人。
The two people I co-founded the company with, Comrade and Vivek, they've long since gone from Superhuman.
与我共同创立公司的两个人，Comrade 和 Vivek，他们早已从 SuperHuman 离职了。
We're now a 10-year-old organization and I'm one those rare founders that is persisting and thriving actually 10 years in.
我们现在是一个已有 10 年历史的组织，而我是少数能在 10 年内坚持并蓬勃发展的创始人之一。
That said, the journey never gets easier, it gets different and you still need that co-founding energy around you.
也就是说，旅程永远不会变得更容易，它会变得不同，你仍然需要你周围的共同创立的能量。
I have a handful of people in the organization who are in their roles providing that kind of energy, that kind of input, and who thrive off doing so.
我的组织中有一些人在他们的角色中提供这种能量、这种投入，并且通过这样做而茁壮成长。
Then the president role is definitely one of them.
那么总裁的角色绝对是其中之一。
Lenny Rachitsky: Incredibly interesting.
Lenny Rachitsky：非常有趣。
There's so much there.
那里有很多东西。
One, just a couple of things I'll share and then I want to move on to a different topic.
第一，我将分享几件事，然后我想转向另一个主题。
One is just, it's cool the solution to helping you move faster and do the work you want to do is org design.
一是，组织设计是帮助您更快地行动并完成您想做的工作的解决方案，这很酷。
That feels like a really doable thing.
这感觉像是一件真正可行的事情。
If you're finding you're not spending time on things you want to spend time on and things aren't moving as fast as you want, it's essentially you can find people to take on things that you don't want and shift the way that the org is structured and that could solve a lot of problems.
如果你发现你没有把时间花在你想做的事情上，而且事情进展得没有你想要的那么快，那么本质上你可以找到人来承担你不想要的事情，并改变组织的结构方式，这可以解决很多问题。
That's what it did for you.
这就是它为你所做的。
Then I think it's also really interesting, there's this lesson here of as a founder, if you're just feeling depleted or just don't have the partner you want, you could bring someone on that could be that person.
然后我认为这也很有趣，这里有一个关于作为创始人的教训，如果你只是感到精疲力尽或者只是没有你想要的合作伙伴，你可以找一个人，这个人可能就是那个人。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。
There's so much there.
那里有很多东西。
That was much more of a rich area than I even expected.
那是一个比我想象的还要富裕的地区。
I want to zoom out a little bit, and there's a couple themes that came up again and again when I talked to folks that you've worked with, investors in Superhuman.
我想把范围缩小一点，当我与与你共事的人、《超人》的投资者交谈时，有几个主题一次又一次地出现。
The two themes are contrarian thinking, in terms of building the company, and strong attention to detail.
这两个主题是在公司建设方面的逆向思维和对细节的高度关注。
Let's spend a little time on attention to detail.
让我们花一点时间关注细节。
Like I said, this is one of the things that came up again and again when I was asking people about you.
就像我说的，这是我向人们询问有关您的情况时一次又一次出现的事情之一。
So I have this quote from Ed Sims, and maybe your first investor.
我引用了埃德·西姆斯（Ed Sims）的话，他也许是你的第一个投资者。
Were they your first investor?
他们是你的第一个投资者吗？
Rahul Vohra: Yeah, that there's a bunch of people on Twitter who are going to fight for that.
Rahul Vohra：是的，Twitter 上有很多人会为此而奋斗。
But to set the record straight, Ed Sim did actually write the first three checks into Superhuman.
但为了澄清事实，艾德·西姆确实把前三张支票写进了《超人》。
Lenny Rachitsky: First three checks?
Lenny Rachitsky：前三项检查？
At subsequent rounds.
在随后的几轮比赛中。
Rahul Vohra: Well, yeah.
拉胡尔·沃拉：嗯，是的。
Quick sidebar on that, he runs Boldstart Ventures alongside his partner Elliot Durbin.
顺便说一句，他与合伙人 Elliot Durbin 一起经营 Boldstart Ventures。
They have a particular interest in backing second-time founders, but they'll also back first-time founders, and they love application and infrastructure areas like Superhuman, so we were like the perfect investment.
他们对支持第二次创始人特别感兴趣，但他们也会支持首次创始人，而且他们喜欢像 Super human 这样的应用程序和基础设施领域，所以我们就像是完美的投资。
He also wrote a check from his previous fund into a Rapportive, and I think I'd made him five X that money.
他还从他之前的基金中写了一张支票到Rapportive，我想我已经给他赚了五倍的钱。
Nothing to write home about, but definitely, "I'm going to back this guy again." So I went to him and I said, "Hey listen, this is going to sound crazy.
没什么可写的，但绝对是，“我会再次支持这个家伙。”所以我去找他说：“嘿听着，这听起来很疯狂。
I want to take on Gmail." He said, "Do you have a deck?" I was like, "Yeah, here it is one slide, here it is." And there was a screenshot of Gmail with most of it scribbled out, "I want to build that and it's going to be amazing."
我想挑战 Gmail。”他说：“你有甲板吗？”我当时想，“是的，这是一张幻灯片，就在这里。”还有一张 Gmail 的屏幕截图，其中大部分内容都潦草地写着，“我想构建它，它会很棒。”
Rahul Vohra: So he said, "Cool, we're in.
Rahul Vohra：所以他说，“酷，我们进来了。
Can I wire you the money?" And I said, "No, I don't even have a bank account yet." I come back two days later with a bank account and he's like, "Cool, I want to wire you 750 K." And I said, "I don't even know what I'm going to do with that money.
我可以给你汇钱吗？”我说：“不，我什至还没有银行账户。”两天后我带着银行账户回来，他说，“酷，我想给你电汇 75 万。”我说：“我什至不知道要用这笔钱做什么。
I'm not paying myself, I won't for a while.
我不会付钱给自己，暂时不会。
We don't have any employees.
我们没有任何员工。
I can't think of anything I want to spend it on.
我想不出我想把它花在什么地方。
Tell you what, I'll just take 250 K." And he was like, "What?" I'm like, "Yeah, I'll just take 250 K." We start having the conversation around venture economics.
告诉你吧，我只要 250 K。”他说：“什么？”我想，“是的，我就拿 250 K 吧。”我们开始围绕风险经济学进行对话。
I'm like, "Yeah, it's fine, we'll figure it out." Then a few months back I took another 250 K and a few months back I took another 250 K as I began inventing ways and finding channels to deploy capital properly.
我说：“是的，没关系，我们会解决的。”然后几个月前，我又拿了 25 万，几个月前，当我开始发明方法和寻找正确部署资本的渠道时，我又拿了 25 万。
Lenny Rachitsky: I love this story.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢这个故事。
I love all these stories you're sharing I've never heard before.
我喜欢你分享的所有这些我以前从未听过的故事。
And by the way, it is awesome.
顺便说一句，它太棒了。
We're talking about him coming on the podcast, maybe breaking our VC rule.
我们正在谈论他出现在播客上，可能会违反我们的风险投资规则。
So specifically the story he shared with me that is maybe an example of you and your attention to detail is, he said that you created your own font because existing fonts weren't good enough.
因此，具体来说，他与我分享的故事可能是您和您对细节的关注的一个例子，他说您创建了自己的字体，因为现有字体不够好。
Is that true?
这是真的吗？
Rahul Vohra: Kind of.
拉胡尔·沃拉：有点。
Okay.
好的。
The font that we use today is a modified version of Adelle Sans.
我们今天使用的字体是 Adelle Sans 的修改版本。
The story there is, I looked at all of the major font families, and honestly none of them was what I would call truly excellent.
故事是这样的，我查看了所有主要的字体系列，老实说，它们都不是我所说的真正优秀的。
That may sound like an odd thing to say.
这听起来可能很奇怪。
So let's, if you will permit me to talk about typography and email-
所以，如果你允许我谈谈排版和电子邮件——
Rahul Vohra: The first thing we did was, we took our UI and we laid it out in about 15 different styles using examples of the major font families.
Rahul Vohra：我们做的第一件事是，我们采用了 UI，并使用主要字体系列的示例将其布局为大约 15 种不同的样式。
We actually printed these out and we left them on a desk in the middle of our office.
我们实际上把这些打印出来，然后把它们放在办公室中间的桌子上。
Sometimes with design, you want to tune in to your immediate most visceral response, but sometimes you want to truly let a design marinate.
有时在设计中，您想要调到最直接的本能反应，但有时您想要真正让设计腌制。
And this was the latter.
这是后者。
So we let these designs marinate, we let these font choices percolate.
所以我们让这些设计腌制，我们让这些字体选择渗透。
Like I said, none of them was truly excellent.
就像我说的，他们都不是真正优秀的。
Rahul Vohra: Number one, I was looking for a font that was in and of itself gorgeous.
Rahul Vohra：第一，我一直在寻找一种本身就很华丽的字体。
Number two, I was looking for a font that could also convey a message of any kind, without overpowering the sentiment of that message.
第二，我正在寻找一种既可以传达任何类型的信息，又不会压倒该信息的情感的字体。
For example, does the font work when this is inviting you to a party?
例如，当邀请您参加聚会时，该字体是否有效？
Many fonts, including almost all serif fonts, are actually too somber or too sober for that.
许多字体，包括几乎所有衬线字体，实际上都太阴郁或太清醒了。
Or to pick another extreme, does the font work if it is informing you of somebody's passing, many fonts are just too jaunty for that.
或者选择另一个极端，如果它通知你某人的去世，字体是否有效，许多字体都太活泼了。
You wouldn't want that kind of message in Comic Sans, for example.
例如，您不会希望在 Comic Sans 中出现此类信息。
And number three, I was optimizing for a font that made reading speed and comprehension really fast.
第三，我正在优化一种字体，使阅读速度和理解速度变得非常快。
And number four, I was looking for a font that made email addresses themselves look great.
第四，我一直在寻找一种能让电子邮件地址本身看起来很棒的字体。
So I discarded all the 15 because they weren't good enough, and after searching high and low, I came across a font called Adelle Sans, which is designed by a foundry called Type Together, type-together.com.
所以我放弃了所有 15 个，因为它们不够好，经过一番搜索，我发现了一种名为 Adelle Sans 的字体，它是由一家名为 Type Together（type-together.com）的铸造厂设计的。
They have a whole bunch of lovely fonts, go check them out.
他们有一大堆可爱的字体，去看看吧。
Rahul Vohra: And if you go through my list, number one, Adelle Sans is gorgeous.
Rahul Vohra：如果你浏览一下我的名单，排名第一的 Adelle Sans 非常漂亮。
I think each character is a work of art.
我认为每个角色都是一件艺术品。
It's beautifully formed.
它的形状很漂亮。
Number two, Adelle Sans is, I would say upbeat, it's optimistic, yet it's serious enough to convey any kind of message.
第二，我想说的是，Adelle Sans 是乐观的，它是乐观的，但它足够严肃，足以传达任何类型的信息。
It has just the right amount of personality, yet not too much personality.
它有恰到好处的个性，但又不过分个性。
Number three, Adelle Sans is also unusually narrow, and that actually fits email particularly well.
第三，Adelle Sans 字体也异常狭窄，实际上非常适合电子邮件。
One of my pet peeves with Gmail, which by default uses Ariel, is that the lines are as wide as your window.
我对 Gmail（默认情况下使用 Ariel）最不满意的地方之一是，线条与窗口一样宽。
So if you're in a wide screen, then the lines get really arbitrarily long.
因此，如果您处于宽屏幕中，那么线条就会变得非常任意长。
The problem with really wide and really long lines, is that they decrease reading speed.
太宽太长的行的问题是它们会降低阅读速度。
Because by the time you've reached the end of one line, your eyes have lost track of the start of the next line.
因为当您到达一行的末尾时，您的眼睛已经失去了下一行的开头。
And Ariel itself has fairly wide characters, which further exacerbates that.
而爱丽儿本身的性格就相当广泛，这进一步加剧了这一点。
Rahul Vohra: So at Superhuman we, if you've used the product, you know this, we fix the line length or the typographical measure to the optimal length for reading speed, which depending on the font is around 90 to 120 characters.
Rahul Vohra：所以在 Superhuman，如果您使用过该产品，您就会知道这一点，我们将行长或印刷测量固定为阅读速度的最佳长度，根据字体大约为 90 到 120 个字符。
And Adelle Sans is quite narrow, so it actually lets us do this on quite small windows with fairly dense line.
Adelle Sans 非常窄，所以它实际上让我们可以在相当小的窗口上使用相当密集的线条来执行此操作。
So we get a lot of information on fairly small windows without getting a very long typographical measure, optimizing for reading speed and for comprehension.
因此，我们可以在相当小的窗口上获得大量信息，而无需进行很长的排版测量，从而优化了阅读速度和理解能力。
Then number four, finally Adelle Sans has very unusual treatment of the at symbol in an email address.
第四，最后，Adelle Sans 对电子邮件地址中的 at 符号进行了非常不寻常的处理。
It actually puts the base of the A in the at on the same baseline as the rest of the text.
它实际上将 at 中 A 的基数置于与文本其余部分相同的基线上。
Rahul Vohra: So for example, if your name has an A, my name does Rahul at Vohra, three A's and or two A's and an at, they're all actually on the same baseline.
Rahul Vohra：例如，如果你的名字有一个 A，我的名字有 Rahul at Vohra，三个 A 和/或两个 A 和一个 at，它们实际上都在同一基线上。
It's a small thing, but it makes the email addresses look incredibly natural.
这是一件小事，但它使电子邮件地址看起来非常自然。
If you look at that and then you actually look at email addresses laid out in other fonts, those other the fonts look really clunky and awkward because the A is kind of shifted around and it just looks a bit silly in my opinion.
如果你看看这个，然后你实际上看看用其他字体排列的电子邮件地址，那些其他字体看起来真的很笨重和尴尬，因为 A 有点移动，在我看来它看起来有点傻。
Now Adelle Sans isn't perfect.
现在 Adelle Sans 并不完美。
So we then worked with a type designer on some of the specific details that there are some of the glyphs, which get a little pinchy as it were, and what we use today is very close to retail Adelle Sans.
因此，我们随后与字体设计师合作，研究了一些具体的细节，其中一些字形确实有点紧张，而我们今天使用的与零售 Adelle Sans 非常接近。
Lenny Rachitsky: And this was pre-launch or this was after you'd already launched?
Lenny Rachitsky：这是发布前还是发布后？
Rahul Vohra: We'd probably had about 10, 15 users at the time.
Rahul Vohra：当时我们可能有大约 10、15 个用户。
Lenny Rachitsky: So I think that's pretty contrarian unique to be this focused on the font and the typeface before you even launched.
Lenny Rachitsky：所以我认为在你推出之前就专注于字体和字体，这是相当独特的逆向思维。
This was like, "Is this even going to be a thing?
这就像，“这会成为一件事吗？
Will anyone even care?" And I think this says a lot about the way you think about product.
还会有人关心吗？”我认为这很大程度上说明了您对产品的看法。
Rahul Vohra: Oh yeah, that thought never crossed my mind.
Rahul Vohra：哦，是的，我从来没有想过这个想法。
I think we'll probably come to it later, but the idea that, is this never going to be a thing?
我想我们可能稍后会讨论这个问题，但是这个想法是不是永远不会成为一件事？
I think that's a dangerous thought.
我认为这是一个危险的想法。
We can't start thinking that way, because at what point do you stop second-guessing yourself?
我们不能开始这样思考，因为什么时候你才能停止事后怀疑自己呢？
Lenny Rachitsky: Interesting.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：有趣。
So you were confident this was going to work, so because I am so confident it'll work, I need them to get this right.
所以你有信心这会起作用，所以因为我很有信心它会起作用，所以我需要他们把这件事做好。
There's also this trap founders fall into of just spending too much time perfecting a thing that never works and there's always advice launch early, launch often.
创始人还容易陷入这样的陷阱，即花费太多时间来完善一件永远行不通的事情，而且总是有人建议尽早发布、经常发布。
Thoughts there?
想法在那里？
How do you find that balance?
你如何找到这种平衡？
What's your advice there?
你有什么建议？
Rahul Vohra: How much to spend time ahead of launch really does depend on the markets and the structure, the nature of your business model.
Rahul Vohra：在发布之前花多少时间确实取决于市场、结构以及商业模式的性质。
For example, let's say you are building a marketplace in a greenfield opportunity, so imagine the Lyft or Uber in their heyday.
例如，假设您正在一个未开发的机会中建立一个市场，那么想象一下 Lyft 或 Uber 的鼎盛时期。
There's a strong network effect, because the more cars you have on your platform, the shorter waiting times are, therefore people are going to preferentially use your app versus the other person's app.
这是一个强大的网络效应，因为你的平台上的汽车越多，等待时间就越短，因此人们会优先使用你的应用程序而不是其他人的应用程序。
That's when there's no time to spare, that's when you probably shouldn't even be sleeping.
那是没有空闲时间的时候，那是你甚至不应该睡觉的时候。
You're going to hire the most aggressive maniacal people possible.
你将尽可能雇用最激进、最疯狂的人。
You're going to work 120-hour weeks, because every marginal minute actually does matter.
你将每周工作 120 小时，因为每一分钟实际上都很重要。
Every marginal minute in the market, growing compounding is going to make your next year even better.
市场中的每一分钟，不断增长的复利都会让你的下一年变得更好。
Rahul Vohra: That's actually not true of all startups and it certainly isn't true of something like Superhuman.
Rahul Vohra：实际上并非所有初创公司都是如此，对于像 Superhuman 这样的公司来说当然也不是这样。
Yes, working harder is always better and we work tremendously hard at Superhuman, but not to the point where it made sense to release something that didn't work.
是的，努力工作总是更好，我们在 SuperHuman 上非常努力地工作，但还没有达到释放一些不起作用的东西的意义。
I'm reminded of a story of a founder that was in Y Combinator, told me about their demo day experience.
我想起了 Y Combinator 的一位创始人的故事，他向我讲述了他们的演示日经历。
They used Mailbox, which some folks may remember was also a startup, and Dropbox famously acquired them for about a hundred million dollars.
他们使用 Mailbox，有些人可能还记得这也是一家初创公司，而 Dropbox 以大约 1 亿美元的价格收购了他们。
The reason that they were well known, apart from the acquisition, is they were the first to popularize, swipe to archive or swipe to mark down, which of course is now standard in Superhuman and every other app.
除了收购之外，它们之所以广为人知，还在于它们是第一个普及“滑动存档”或“滑动降价”功能的人，这当然是 Superhuman 和其他所有应用程序中的标准配置。
Rahul Vohra: This founder was using Mailbox and was having an amazing demo day.
Rahul Vohra：这位创始人正在使用 Mailbox，并且度过了一个令人惊叹的演示日。
They're working the room, they're meeting investors, they're pitching their photography app in this case.
在这个案例中，他们正在房间里工作，他们正在会见投资者，他们正在推销他们的摄影应用程序。
He went home that night and went to his laptop, fired up mailbox and sent off a bunch of follow-up emails.
那天晚上，他回到家，打开笔记本电脑，打开邮箱，发送了一堆后续电子邮件。
He waited the day, didn't hear back, he waited two days, didn't hear back.
他等了一天，没有回音，他等了两天，也没有回音。
On the third morning he figured something was up, so he fired up Gmail, went to his sent mail, and you guessed it, there were no sent mails there.
第三天早上，他发现出了什么问题，所以他启动了 Gmail，转到他的已发送邮件，你猜对了，那里没有已发送的邮件。
So something had broken with mailbox.
所以邮箱出了什么问题。
So he's cursing to himself trying to remind himself everything's going to be okay.
所以他对自己咒骂着，试图提醒自己一切都会好起来的。
Sent all the same emails from Gmail manually and they all came through.
手动从 Gmail 发送所有相同的电子邮件，它们都通过了。
Rahul Vohra: But then one of the investors said, "Hey, by the way, you might want to check your email clients, because I've been getting some of your emails twice." Now he goes back into his Gmail, he sees that yes, actually the original emails that were queued up in mailbox have now indeed been sent, and some of the investors, and unfortunately most of the investors he actually pitched twice.
Rahul Vohra：但后来一位投资者说，“嘿，顺便说一句，你可能想检查一下你的电子邮件客户端，因为我已经两次收到你的一些电子邮件了。”现在他回到他的Gmail，他看到，是的，实际上在邮箱中排队的原始电子邮件现在确实已经发送了，一些投资者，不幸的是大多数投资者实际上被他投了两次。
Now, is this the end of the world?
现在，这是世界末日吗？
No, an investor can overlook that.
不，投资者可能会忽视这一点。
Probably a good thing that you're trying new apps.
您正在尝试新的应用程序可能是一件好事。
But was it horrifying and was it really scary?
但这很可怕吗？真的很可怕吗？
Absolutely.
绝对地。
Rahul Vohra: Imagine this wasn't investors, imagine this was a customer, someone who you were trying to convince to buy your thing and that you knew what you were doing and you had attention to detail and you had everything just buttoned up and under control.
Rahul Vohra：想象一下这不是投资者，想象一下这是一位客户，你试图说服他购买你的东西的人，你知道自己在做什么，你关注细节，你把一切都搞定并在控制之中。
Well, now you've lost face, now you look foolish.
好吧，现在你丢了脸，现在你看起来很愚蠢。
That's why when you have mission-critical products like email where you are interfacing with customers, with candidates, with investors, it turns out to really matter.
这就是为什么当您拥有电子邮件等关键任务产品时，您可以与客户、候选人、投资者进行交流，结果证明它确实很重要。
Email is mission-critical.
电子邮件是关键任务。
It's not something where you can simply launch with a half-baked product.
这不是你可以简单地推出一个半生不熟的产品的东西。
Lenny Rachitsky: This is such an important nuance take on, there's always this debate, how much to focus on craft and user experience, how much to focus on time to launch and get it out and speed.
Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个非常重要的细微差别，总是存在这样的争论：应该在多大程度上关注工艺和用户体验，在多大程度上关注启动、发布和速度的时间。
What I'm hearing here, which I completely agree with is, it depends on the market you're in and the criticality essentially of your product.
我在这里听到的，我完全同意的是，这取决于您所在的市场以及您产品的关键程度。
So if it's email, it just needs to work and you need to get that right, you need to spend all the time, you need to get that right.
因此，如果它是电子邮件，它只需要工作，并且您需要正确对待它，您需要花费所有时间，您需要正确对待它。
Lenny Rachitsky: This reminds me of something else that when your early investors shared with me, Bill Trenchard from First-Round Capital.
Lenny Rachitsky：这让我想起了你们的早期投资者、来自 First-Round Capital 的 Bill Trenchard 与我分享的另一件事。
He talked about how speed was the thing that you just dialed up as a lever to 11.
他谈到了你刚刚将杠杆拨至 11 时的速度有多快。
That's where you just, "We will make this the focus.
这就是你所说的，“我们将把它作为焦点。
Speed, speed, speed." I think maybe the lesson there is, you pick the thing that you think will most differentiate you, make you significantly better than what's out there.
速度，速度，速度。”我想也许这就是一个教训，你选择你认为最能让你与众不同的东西，让你比外面的东西明显更好。
So just thoughts on how you decided speed was the thing you were going to obsess with, and advice for folks that are trying to decide where to dial up things to 11?
那么，想一想你是如何确定速度是你要痴迷的事情的，以及对那些试图决定在哪里将速度拨至 11 的人的建议？
Rahul Vohra: Bill is right and I agree with him, you have to pick something.
Rahul Vohra：比尔是对的，我同意他的观点，你必须选择一些东西。
Knowing what to pick is the trick.
知道选择什么是诀窍。
In the early days of Superhuman, I read a book on positioning that really influenced my thinking.
在《超人》的早期，我读过一本关于定位的书，这本书确实影响了我的想法。
It is, I believe called Positioning the Battle for Your Mind.
我相信这就是所谓的“为你的思想定位之战”。
It struck me how the most well-known brands have stood for one clear thing, they have a clear position.
让我震惊的是，最知名的品牌都代表着一件明确的事情，他们有一个明确的立场。
So in order for Superhuman to be memorable, I believed that we needed to occupy a clear position that was unique and which was available and which reinforced our product strategy.
因此，为了让《超人》令人难忘，我相信我们需要占据一个独特且可用的明确位置，并强化我们的产品策略。
Rahul Vohra: In the first year of Superhuman, therefore, I interviewed hundreds of potential customers about their experience with Gmail and with Outlook.
Rahul Vohra：因此，在 Super human 的第一年，我采访了数百名潜在客户，了解他们使用 Gmail 和 Outlook 的体验。
And predictably, almost everybody says that email takes way too much time.
可以预见的是，几乎每个人都说电子邮件花费了太多时间。
But interestingly, many people also said that Gmail and Outlook were way too slow.
但有趣的是，许多人还表示 Gmail 和 Outlook 太慢了。
That was how I first thought that speed could be an interesting position for us.
这就是我最初认为速度对我们来说可能是一个有趣的位置的原因。
I then asked myself, "Is the position of speed unique and is it available?" And the answer was overwhelmingly yes, because almost no software was being sold or has ever been sold on the value proposition of speed.
然后我问自己：“速度的位置是唯一的吗？可用吗？”答案绝大多数是肯定的，因为几乎没有软件以速度的价值主张出售或曾经出售过。
The last time I could remember anyone trying to do this, was when Google launched Chrome, and obviously that went incredibly well for them.
我记得最后一次有人尝试这样做是在谷歌推出 Chrome 时，显然这对他们来说非常顺利。
You may remember they had slow-motion videos where they were comparing Chrome render webpages and showing that was faster than an actual strike of lightning.
您可能还记得他们有慢动作视频，他们在其中比较 Chrome 渲染网页，并显示其速度比实际的闪电还要快。
No one had done it since then.
从那以后就没有人这样做过。
Rahul Vohra: I then asked, "Well, does speed reinforce our product strategy?" And again, the answer was overwhelmingly yes.
Rahul Vohra：然后我问，“那么，速度是否强化了我们的产品策略？”再次强调，答案是肯定的。
I knew that our competition was not going to be startups, it was incumbents.
我知道我们的竞争对手不是初创公司，而是老牌企业。
And I also knew that incumbents generally struggle with speed, because by definition they have massive scale and usually entrenched architecture.
我还知道，现有企业通常都在速度上挣扎，因为根据定义，它们拥有巨大的规模和通常根深蒂固的架构。
Then finally I did what I call the cocktail party test, which is to look at the cocktail parties and to watch how people pitch your product to other people.
最后我做了我所说的鸡尾酒会测试，即观察鸡尾酒会并观察人们如何向其他人推销你的产品。
In our case the pitches were simple.
在我们的案例中，推介很简单。
People would say, "Dude, you have to use it, it's really fucking fast." And that's it.
人们会说，“伙计，你必须使用它，它真的太他妈快了。”就是这样。
That was the pitch.
这就是球场。
That's how I knew that speed would be a really great position for us to start with.
这就是我知道速度对于我们来说是一个非常好的起点。
Lenny Rachitsky: I'm excited to chat with Christina Gilbert, the founder of OneSchema, one of our longtime podcast sponsors.
Lenny Rachitsky：我很高兴能与 OneSchema 的创始人 Christina Gilbert 聊天，OneSchema 是我们的长期播客赞助商之一。
Hi Christina.
嗨克里斯蒂娜。
Christina Gilbert: Yes, thank you for having me on, Lenny.
克里斯蒂娜·吉尔伯特：是的，谢谢你邀请我参加，莱尼。
Lenny Rachitsky: What is the latest with OneSchema?
Lenny Rachitsky：OneSchema 的最新动态是什么？
I know you now work with some of my favorite companies like Ramp, Vanta, Scale and Watershed.
我知道您现在与一些我最喜欢的公司合作，例如 Ramp、Vanta、Scale 和 Watershed。
I heard that you just launched a new product to help product teams import CSVs from especially tricky systems like ERPs.
我听说你们刚刚推出了一款新产品，帮助产品团队从 ERP 等特别棘手的系统导入 CSV。
Christina Gilbert: Yes, so we just launched OneSchema of FileFeeds, which allows you to build an integration with any system in 15 minutes, as long as you can export a CSV to an SFTP folder.
Christina Gilbert：是的，所以我们刚刚推出了 FileFeeds 的 OneSchema，它允许您在 15 分钟内构建与任何系统的集成，只要您可以将 CSV 导出到 SFTP 文件夹即可。
We see our customers all the time getting stuck with hacks and workarounds, and the product teams that we work with don't have to turn down prospects because their systems are too hard to integrate with.
我们经常看到我们的客户陷入黑客攻击和解决方法的困境，而与我们合作的产品团队不必因为他们的系统太难集成而拒绝潜在客户。
We allow our customers to offer thousands of integrations without involving their engineering team at all.
我们允许客户提供数千种集成，而无需他们的工程团队参与。
Lenny Rachitsky: I can tell you that if my team had to build integrations like this, how nice would it be to be able to take this off my roadmap and instead use something like OneSchema.
Lenny Rachitsky：我可以告诉你，如果我的团队必须构建这样的集成，那么能够将其从我的路线图上删除并使用 OneSchema 之类的东西该多好。
Not just to build it but also to maintain it forever.
不仅要建造它，还要永远维护它。
Christina Gilbert: Absolutely, Lenny.
克里斯蒂娜·吉尔伯特：当然，莱尼。
We've heard so many horror stories of multi-day outages from even just a handful of bad records.
我们已经听过许多因少数不良记录而导致多天停电的恐怖故事。
We are laser focused on integration reliability to help teams end all of those distractions that come up with integrations.
我们高度关注集成可靠性，以帮助团队消除集成带来的所有干扰。
We have a built-in validation layer that stops any bad data from entering your system and OneSchema will notify your team immediately of any data that looks incorrect.
我们有一个内置的验证层，可以阻止任何不良数据进入您的系统，OneSchema 将立即通知您的团队任何看起来不正确的数据。
Lenny Rachitsky: I know that importing incorrect data can cause all kinds of pain for your customers and quickly lose their trust.
Lenny Rachitsky：我知道导入不正确的数据会给您的客户带来各种痛苦，并很快失去他们的信任。
Christina, thank you for joining us and if you want to learn more, head on over to OneSchema.co. That's one OneSchema.co.
Christina，感谢您加入我们，如果您想了解更多信息，请访问 OneSchema.co。这就是 OneSchema.co。
Lenny Rachitsky: The next area I want to spend time on and I imagine we'll have much insight is, some of the contrarian ways you approach building Superhuman that a lot of companies never thought about doing that you did that worked out for you.
Lenny Rachitsky：我想花时间研究的下一个领域是，我想我们将会有很多见解，那就是，你在构建超人时采用的一些逆向方法，很多公司从未想过这样做，但你所做的却对你有用。
So the first is manually onboarding every single new user.
因此，第一个是手动引导每个新用户。
Sure, startups have done this, founders bring on some folks and then cool, show it to them and then they stop doing that and then it's self-service or sales teams.
当然，初创公司已经做到了这一点，创始人带来了一些人，然后冷静地向他们展示，然后他们停止这样做，然后是自助服务或销售团队。
How far did you scale this manual onboarding phase of your company?
您公司的手动入职阶段进展到什么程度了？
How many people did you have onboarding people, how many people did you manually onboard?
您有多少人入职，您手动入职了多少人？
Rahul Vohra: So for folks that don't know, in those early days we insisted on one-to-one concierge onboarding, and it was absolutely the right thing to do.
Rahul Vohra：对于那些不知道的人来说，在早期，我们坚持一对一的礼宾引导，这绝对是正确的做法。
You couldn't use Superhuman unless you went through the onboarding experience.
除非您经历过入职体验，否则您无法使用 Super human。
Now it's almost the reverse.
现在情况几乎相反。
Almost every new Superhuman customer goes through self-service.
几乎每个新的 Super human 客户都会经历自助服务。
The onboarding experience is still there, but again it is absolutely the right thing to do.
入职体验仍然存在，但这绝对是正确的做法。
To answer your question, at peak we had about 20 people doing manual onboarding.
为了回答您的问题，高峰期我们有大约 20 人进行手动入职培训。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, so it's not that many people.
Lenny Rachitsky：好的，所以人不是很多。
That's really interesting.
这真的很有趣。
Because I always imagined it was like a massive team, but 20 people can handle a lot, is the takeaway there.
因为我一直想象这就像一个庞大的团队，但 20 个人可以处理很多事情，这就是要点。
What was the scale where you stopped manual onboarding, just for folks that are thinking about doing this and then when to stop?
你们停止手动入职的规模是多少，只是针对那些正在考虑这样做的人，然后什么时候停止？
Rahul Vohra: I think the reason to stop is that there will always be certain personality types who do not want to go through a one-on-one onboarding.
Rahul Vohra：我认为停止的原因是总会有某些性格类型不想经历一对一的入职培训。
At a certain point those people will become very important, and you'll need to be ready with a world-class self-service option.
在某个时刻，这些人将变得非常重要，您需要准备好世界一流的自助服务选项。
When we started building self-service, it seemed nearly impossible.
当我们开始建立自助服务时，这似乎几乎是不可能的。
In fact, it was terrifying, because it's difficult to overstate how much the entire DNA of the company was built around this idea that we would onboard users manually.
事实上，这很可怕，因为很难夸大公司的整个 DNA 在多大程度上是围绕我们手动吸引用户的想法构建的。
After all, we did so much in our one-to-one onboardings and there's only so much that software can do.
毕竟，我们在一对一的入职培训中做了很多事情，而软件能做的也只有这么多。
Now, we did after a lot of grind and persistence eventually figure it out and we have a world-class self-service experience today, but we did not at the time.
现在，经过大量的磨练和坚持，我们最终找到了答案，今天我们拥有了世界一流的自助服务体验，但当时我们还没有。
Rahul Vohra: So the flip side is, why would you even do this to begin with?
Rahul Vohra：那么另一方面，你为什么要这样做呢？
What we found is two things.
我们发现有两件事。
Number one, the user metrics are excellent for things like engagement, retention, product market fit score, MPS, virality, for all of those metrics.
第一，用户指标非常适合参与度、保留率、产品市场契合度、MPS、病毒式传播等所有这些指标。
I think you you'll significantly beat your industry benchmarks if you go to the effort of one-on-one onboarding your early customers.
我认为，如果您努力一对一地吸引早期客户，您将显着超越行业基准。
It becomes so powerful to have that early cohort of super fans when it comes to things like building a brand.
当涉及到建立品牌之类的事情时，拥有早期的超级粉丝群体变得非常强大。
If folks remember that conversation from way up at the top, what is it that creates true virality?
如果人们还记得高层的那次对话，那么是什么创造了真正的病毒式传播？
It's not viral mechanics, it's word of mouth.
这不是病毒式传播，而是口口相传。
It is brand.
它是品牌。
This is how you can kickstart a brand.
这就是您启动品牌的方式。
Rahul Vohra: And number two, in a world where you can easily and quickly raise funding, like for example the zero interest rate phenomenon era, you can actually use dollars to avoid building a first-time user experience and all of the normal growth loops that you would then have to build.
Rahul Vohra：第二，在一个可以轻松快速筹集资金的世界中，例如零利率现象时代，您实际上可以使用美元来避免构建首次用户体验以及随后必须构建的所有正常增长循环。
You would then instead focus all of your engineers on finding product market fit or in solution deepening or in market widening, but not for example on a first-time user experience, not for example on activation, because you have humans doing activation for you.
然后，您可以将所有工程师的重点放在寻找产品市场契合度或解决方案深化或市场拓宽上，但不是例如首次用户体验，不是例如激活，因为有人为您进行激活。
By contrast I saw other companies often competing spend almost half their engineering dollars on those things, on self-service flows for products that ultimately did not find products market fit.
相比之下，我看到其他公司经常竞争，将几乎一半的工程资金花在这些事情上，花在最终不适合市场的产品的自助服务流程上。
So makes sense to do if you really want to create that brand, which I think all consumer-ish companies need to do.
如果你真的想创建这个品牌，那么这样做是有意义的，我认为所有面向消费者的公司都需要这样做。
And if there is money falling off trees, for whatever reason, which we did have for a period of time, arguably AI companies have that again today.
如果有钱从树上掉下来，不管出于什么原因，我们在一段时间内确实有这样的情况，可以说人工智能公司今天又会发生这种情况。
So if you can weave this into your strategy, I think you should, but you should also know when to stop.
因此，如果你可以将其融入你的策略中，我认为你应该这样做，但你也应该知道何时停止。
Lenny Rachitsky: Super interesting.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：超级有趣。
I guess some factors to think about, because I wanted to ask you when should people consider doing this?
我想需要考虑一些因素，因为我想问你人们什么时候应该考虑这样做？
If they're hearing this and they're like, "This is awesome, so many problems solved if I just have somebody onboarding every new user, everyone's activated.
如果他们听到这个，他们会说，“这太棒了，如果我让每个新用户都有人加入，那么很多问题就解决了，每个人都被激活了。
Amazing." So some of the variables you're sharing is, do you have like cheap cash to invest in say, it doesn't have to be 20 people, it could be a few people to start.
太棒了。”所以你分享的一些变量是，你是否有廉价的现金可以投资，比如说，不一定要 20 个人，可以从几个人开始。
Then if there's an LTV, ACV element of just are you going to make enough from a new customer?
那么，如果存在 LTV、ACV 要素，您是否能从新客户那里获得足够的收入？
Imagine that's a variable.
想象这是一个变量。
Is there anything else you think founders should think about?
您认为创始人还应该考虑什么？
Rahul Vohra: Absolutely.
拉胡尔·沃拉：当然。
You don't want to lose money doing this.
您不想这样做而赔钱。
We always made money doing onboarding to be clear, it's just that at a certain point the mass market, whether it for us it's enterprise or all of the prosumers in the world, you hit a top of funnel width, it needs to be wide enough where manually onboarding no longer makes sense.
需要明确的是，我们总是通过入职培训赚钱，只是在大众市场的某个时刻，无论是对我们企业还是世界上所有的专业消费者来说，你都会达到漏斗宽度的顶部，它需要足够宽，手动入职不再有意义。
Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
Okay, let's talk about product market fit.
好的，我们来谈谈产品市场契合度。
I know that everyone, when they think of Rahul, they think product market fit.
我知道每个人，当他们想到拉胡尔时，他们都会认为产品适合市场。
You wrote this epic First Round post that described the way you guys approach product market fit.
您写了这篇史诗般的第一轮帖子，描述了你们处理产品市场契合度的方式。
We're not going to spend a lot of time on describing it, because people can look it up.
我们不会花很多时间来描述它，因为人们可以查找它。
So let me just ask you this, what are a couple of things that you think people still don't understand about finding product market fit, getting to product market fit?
因此，让我问您，您认为人们在寻找产品市场契合度、实现产品市场契合度方面仍然不明白哪些事情？
Considering it's the most important thing you got to figure out as a founder.
考虑到这是作为创始人必须弄清楚的最重要的事情。
If you don't find something people want, nothing else matters.
如果你找不到人们想要的东西，其他一切都不重要。
Anything there you want to share.
有什么想分享的都可以。
Rahul Vohra: The core ideas are still weird enough that I'll start there.
Rahul Vohra：核心思想仍然很奇怪，我将从这里开始。
Which is number one, you can measure product market fit.
第一，你可以衡量产品的市场契合度。
Number two, you can optimize product market fit.
第二，您可以优化产品市场契合度。
Number three, you can systematically, even numerically increase product market fit.
第三，您可以系统地、甚至在数量上提高产品的市场契合度。
And number four, you can even have an algorithm write your roadmap for you, and that is a roadmap that is guaranteed to increase product market fit.
第四，您甚至可以让算法为您编写路线图，这是一个保证提高产品市场契合度的路线图。
Now, if that sounds crazy, I would be the first to admit it doesn't seem like that should be true, but go check out that post.
现在，如果这听起来很疯狂，我会是第一个承认这似乎不应该是真的，但去看看那个帖子。
I think it is still the most widely shared post on First Round Review, it's called How Superhuman Built an Engine to Find Product Market Fit, or just Google the Superhuman Product Market Fit Engine.
我认为它仍然是第一轮评论中分享最广泛的帖子，它的名字叫“超人如何构建引擎来寻找产品市场契合度”，或者只是谷歌“超人产品市场契合度引擎”。
And you'll see the algorithm laid out there fully explained and why it works.
您将看到那里列出的算法及其工作原理的完整解释。
Rahul Vohra: I'd say the second thing is to get to product market fit, you have to deliberately not act on the feedback of many of your early users.
Rahul Vohra：我想说的第二件事是要让产品适合市场，你必须故意不根据许多早期用户的反馈采取行动。
This is at the same time as listening to people intensely and building what people want.
与此同时，还要认真倾听人们的意见并构建人们想要的东西。
That's what we're here to do, is to make something that people want.
这就是我们来这里的目的，就是创造人们想要的东西。
But it can't be all people.
但不可能是所有人。
It can't be everybody.
不可能是所有人。
The question becomes, how do you listen to them?
问题是，你如何倾听他们的声音？
And then even of what they say, what do you pay attention to and what don't you?
然后，即使他们说什么，你会注意什么，不注意什么？
All of that's covered in the Product Market Fit Engine.
所有这些都包含在产品市场契合引擎中。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, I got to follow this thought on algorithmically building your roadmap to increase product market fit.
Lenny Rachitsky：好的，我必须遵循这个想法，通过算法构建路线图以提高产品市场契合度。
Talk about how one would do that.
讨论如何做到这一点。
Rahul Vohra: Well, that's really the meat of the engine.
Rahul Vohra：嗯，这确实是引擎的核心。
Let's see if I can condense it here in a very easy to grok fashion.
让我们看看我能否以一种非常容易理解的方式将其浓缩在这里。
Let's assume for the sake of argument, that you can put a number on product market fit, and it turns out you can.
为了便于讨论，我们假设您可以在产品市场契合度上输入一个数字，事实证明您可以。
Very simply, you're going to ask people, "How would you feel if you can no longer use this product?" You give them three responses.
很简单，你会问人们，“如果你不能再使用这个产品，你会有什么感觉？”你给他们三个回应。
One of them is very disappointed, the other is somewhat disappointed, and the other is not disappointed.
一个很失望，一个有些失望，一个不失望。
Very disappointed means, "I'd be devastated.
非常失望的意思是：“我会很沮丧。
I love this product.
我喜欢这个产品。
I need this product."
我需要这个产品。”
Rahul Vohra: What Sean Ellis found, Sean Ellis, if you don't know him, is the guy who coined the term growth hacker, and he instrumented, benchmarked this initial question.
Rahul Vohra：肖恩·埃利斯（Sean Ellis）发现，如果你不认识他，肖恩·埃利斯（Sean Ellis）创造了“增长黑客”一词，他对这个最初的问题进行了检测和基准测试。
What he found, is that the companies that struggled to grow almost always had less than 40%, very disappointed.
他发现，那些难以增长的公司几乎总是低于 40%，这让他非常失望。
Whereas the companies that grew the fastest almost always had more than 40%, very disappointed.
而增长最快的公司几乎总是超过 40%，这让人非常失望。
And this question, this metric is way more predictive of success than something, for example, like net promoter score.
这个问题，这个指标比净推荐值等指标更能预测成功。
Rahul Vohra: Okay, so far so easy.
Rahul Vohra：好的，到目前为止都很简单。
How do we make this number go up?
我们怎样才能让这个数字上升呢？
Well, you want more people to be very disappointed without your product.
好吧，你希望更多的人对你的产品感到非常失望。
The trick here is not to act too much on the feedback that the very disappointed people are giving you, because they already love your product.
这里的技巧是不要对那些非常失望的人给你的反馈采取太多行动，因为他们已经喜欢你的产品了。
Also, not to act at all really on the feedback that the not disappointed people are giving, you because they're so far from loving your product that they're essentially a lost cause.
另外，不要真正根据那些不失望的人所提供的反馈采取行动，因为他们根本不喜欢你的产品，他们本质上是一个失败的事业。
But to focus on the segment of the somewhat disappointed people, they kind of love your product, but something, and I would wager something small, is holding them back.
但要关注那些有些失望的人，他们有点喜欢你的产品，但有一些东西，我敢打赌一些小东西，阻碍了他们。
Rahul Vohra: You then divide them into two camps, the camp for whom the main benefit of your product resonates and the camp for whom it doesn't.
Rahul Vohra：然后你将他们分为两个阵营，一个阵营对你的产品的主要利益产生共鸣，另一个阵营则不产生共鸣。
What do I mean by that?
我这么说是什么意思？
Well, you go back to the people who really love your product and you basically ask them why?
好吧，你回到那些真正喜欢你的产品的人那里，你基本上会问他们为什么？
What is it about my products that you really love?
您真正喜欢我的产品的哪些方面？
In the early days of Superhuman, it would have been speed and keyboard shortcuts and the overall design aesthetic as well as the time that we were saving you.
在《超人》的早期，我们会考虑速度、键盘快捷键、整体设计美感以及我们为您节省的时间。
You then go back to the somewhat disappointed users, and in the Superhuman example, I would simply ask, "Wait, do you like Superhuman because of its speed or for something else?" And if it's something else, well, and this is hard to do, but politely disregard those people and their feedback.
然后你回到有些失望的用户，在超人的例子中，我会简单地问，“等等，你喜欢超人是因为它的速度还是其他原因？”如果是其他事情，那么，这很难做到，但请礼貌地忽略这些人和他们的反馈。
Because even if you built everything that they asked for, they're still pulling you in a different direction.
因为即使你建造了他们要求的一切，他们仍然会把你拉向不同的方向。
And the thing that they like the most from your product isn't actually what the people who en mass love it the most for, is.
他们最喜欢你的产品的东西实际上并不是大众最喜欢它的东西。
Rahul Vohra: You have then articulated the subsegment of the subsegment that it makes sense to pay attention to, and there's another question in the engine to figure out what they don't like about the product.
Rahul Vohra：然后你已经阐明了值得关注的子细分中的子细分，引擎中还有另一个问题来弄清楚他们不喜欢产品的哪些方面。
Now you have a list of things people love, you have a list of things people don't love, and you can work down that list to make the product market fit score go up.
现在你有一个人们喜欢的东西的列表，你有一个人们不喜欢的东西的列表，你可以沿着这个列表来提高产品的市场适合度得分。
And basically at the start of every planning cycle, I advise spending half your time doubling down on what people really love and half your time systematically overcoming the objections of the somewhat disappointed users, but specifically those for whom the main benefit resonates.
基本上在每个计划周期开始时，我建议花一半的时间加倍投入人们真正喜欢的东西，一半的时间系统地克服有些失望的用户的反对意见，特别是那些主要利益引起共鸣的用户。
Lenny Rachitsky: That was an excellent summary.
Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个很好的总结。
I know I said we wouldn't spend a ton of time here, but I'm really glad we did.
我知道我说过我们不会在这里花太多时间，但我真的很高兴我们这么做了。
That was really helpful.
这真的很有帮助。
Let me ask you this, I know you used this initially in the early days, are you still operating in this way in some form?
我问你这个问题，我知道你早期就用过这个，现在你还在以某种形式这样操作吗？
Rahul Vohra: We don't run the engine as is for Superhuman as a whole.
Rahul Vohra：我们并不像《超人》那样运行整个引擎。
There are enough subcomponents of Superhuman now that are almost individual products.
现在 SuperHuman 有足够多的子组件，几乎都是单独的产品。
For example, Superhuman for Sales, our multiplayer and collaboration features, how we think about the enterprise, AI is its whole thing, but we do sometimes run it on those individual pieces.
例如，销售超人，我们的多人游戏和协作功能，我们如何看待企业，人工智能是它的全部，但我们有时确实在这些单独的部分上运行它。
For example, we'll ask a salesperson, the Product Market Fit Engine, as it relates to Superhuman for sales.
例如，我们会询问销售人员“产品市场契合度引擎”，因为它与“超人”的销售相关。
As we think about starting new products, we would absolutely deploy the product market fit engine.
当我们考虑推出新产品时，我们绝对会部署产品市场契合引擎。
Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
The way you ask this question is an in-product interstitial sort of survey pop-up thing?
您问这个问题的方式是产品内的插页式调查弹出窗口吗？
Rahul Vohra: You can do it however you want.
Rahul Vohra：你可以随心所欲地做。
The way Sean initially benchmarked the number was via email surveys.
肖恩最初对这个数字进行基准测试的方式是通过电子邮件调查。
I think email surveys work just fine.
我认为电子邮件调查效果很好。
The key thing is, and this applies to any survey methodology, if you're going to change the method of surveying, all of your old numbers are invalidated.
关键是，这适用于任何调查方法，如果您要更改调查方法，所有旧数字都将失效。
So it's just a new baseline going forwards.
所以这只是一个新的前进基准。
Lenny Rachitsky: Got it.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：明白了。
We had Sean on the podcast and he describes this method in detail.
我们的播客中有肖恩（Sean），他详细描述了这种方法。
So if folks want to explore the Sean Ellis test, listen to that podcast.
因此，如果人们想探索肖恩·埃利斯测试，请收听该播客。
We'll link to it.
我们将链接到它。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, next topic that I'm excited to get your take on, is game design versus gamification.
Lenny Rachitsky：好的，我很高兴听到您的看法，下一个主题是游戏设计与游戏化。
This is one of the more unique ways you think about designing product.
这是您考虑设计产品的更独特的方式之一。
When people hear you talk about this, they think it's like, "Oh, gamification making things like games.
当人们听到你谈论这个时，他们会认为，“哦，游戏化制作了游戏之类的东西。
Oh, it's Zynga, Farmville, I don't want to do that." But you actually have a really different perspective on why you need to think about game design as you design products.
哦，这是 Zynga、Farmville，我不想那样做。”但对于为什么在设计产品时需要考虑游戏设计，您实际上有一个非常不同的观点。
Talk about your insights there.
在那里谈谈你的见解。
Rahul Vohra: Well, I strongly believe that we should make business software like we make games, because when we make products like we make games, people find them fun.
Rahul Vohra：嗯，我坚信我们应该像制作游戏一样制作商业软件，因为当我们像制作游戏一样制作产品时，人们会觉得它们很有趣。
They tell their friends, they fall in love with them.
他们告诉他们的朋友，他们爱上了他们。
It's another way actually of backing into where we open this conversation, which is you're making a brand, you are giving reason for word of mouth.
实际上，这是我们开始对话的另一种方式，即你正在打造一个品牌，你正在为口碑提供理由。
It's actually an altogether different kind of product development.
这实际上是一种完全不同的产品开发。
So how do we do this?
那么我们该怎么做呢？
Well, as you've said, it's not gamification, that doesn't work.
嗯，正如你所说，这不是游戏化，那是行不通的。
Game design works, but game design is not gamification.
游戏设计有效，但游戏设计不是游戏化。
It's not, for example, simply taking your product and adding points, levels, trophies or badges.
例如，这并不是简单地拿走你的产品并添加积分、级别、奖杯或徽章。
Rahul Vohra: To understand why gamification does not work, we actually have to start with human motivation.
Rahul Vohra：要理解为什么游戏化不起作用，我们实际上必须从人类动机开始。
There's a very interesting study from Stanford that demonstrates the difference perfectly.
斯坦福大学的一项非常有趣的研究完美地证明了这种差异。
In the 1970s, these Stanford researchers recruited children who were aged three to four years old, and all of these kids were generally pre-interested in drawing.
在 20 世纪 70 年代，斯坦福大学的这些研究人员招募了三到四岁的孩子，所有这些孩子通常都对绘画产生了兴趣。
Some kids were told they would get a reward, a certificate with a gold seal and a ribbon.
有些孩子被告知他们会得到奖励，一张带有金印和丝带的证书。
And some kids were not told about any reward and they did not even expect one or didn't know of one.
有些孩子没有被告知任何奖励，他们甚至没有期待或不知道有任何奖励。
Now each child was then invited into a separate room to draw for six minutes and afterwards they would either get the reward or not.
现在，每个孩子都被邀请到一个单独的房间画六分钟，然后他们要么获得奖励，要么不获得奖励。
Rahul Vohra: Over the next few days, the children were observed to see how much they would continue to draw by themselves.
Rahul Vohra：在接下来的几天里，我们观察了孩子们，看看他们会继续自己画多少。
So the children with no reward, they spent 17% of their time drawing, but the children who expected a reward, sadly they only spent 8% of their time drawing.
因此，没有奖励的孩子，他们花了 17% 的时间画画，但期望有奖励的孩子，遗憾的是他们只花了 8% 的时间画画。
The very presence of a reward halved their motivation.
奖励的存在就使他们的积极性减半。
So what's happening?
那么发生了什么事？
What's happening here, is researchers differentiate intrinsic motivation and extrinsic motivation.
这里发生的是，研究人员区分内在动机和外在动机。
With intrinsic motivation we do things because they are inherently interesting and satisfying, and with extrinsic motivation, we do things to earn rewards and to achieve external goals.
有了内在动机，我们做事是因为它们本质上有趣且令人满意；而有了外在动机，我们做事是为了获得奖励并实现外部目标。
That's the problem with rewards, is they just massively undermine intrinsic motivation.
这就是奖励的问题，它们会极大地破坏内在动机。
That's why gamification doesn't work.
这就是游戏化行不通的原因。
And when gamification does work, it's because the underlying experience was already designed like a game.
当游戏化确实发挥作用时，那是因为底层体验已经像游戏一样设计了。
Lenny Rachitsky: What makes something like a game?
Lenny Rachitsky：什么是游戏？
I know Superhuman is really good at this, of just your inbox zero quest that you're on.
我知道超人真的很擅长这个，就是你正在进行的收件箱零任务。
Just to make that a little more real, what is game design?
为了更真实一点，什么是游戏设计？
What does that mean to you?
这对你来说意味着什么？
What makes it feel like a game?
是什么让它感觉像一场游戏？
Rahul Vohra: Well, maybe folks don't know this, but before I was a founder, you can probably tell, I was actually professionally a game designer.
Rahul Vohra：嗯，也许人们不知道这一点，但在我成为创始人之前，你可能会知道，我实际上是一名专业的游戏设计师。
And as it turns out, there is no unifying theory of game design.
事实证明，游戏设计并不存在统一的理论。
To create games, what we need to do is draw upon the arts and the science of psychology, mathematics, storytelling, interaction design.
为了创造游戏，我们需要借鉴心理学、数学、讲故事、交互设计等艺术和科学。
And at Superhuman we've identified five key areas that we really care about, goals, emotions, toys, controls and flow.
在 Superhuman，我们确定了我们真正关心的五个关键领域：目标、情感、玩具、控制和流程。
And across these we've identified many principles of game design.
通过这些我们已经确定了游戏设计的许多原则。
One example principle would be, make fun toys and then combine those into games.
一个示例原则是，制作有趣的玩具，然后将它们组合成游戏。
Rahul Vohra: A question I like to ask is, are toys the same as games?
Rahul Vohra：我想问的一个问题是，玩具和游戏一样吗？
They do seem different.
他们看起来确实不同。
For example, we play with toys, but we play games.
例如，我们玩玩具，但我们玩游戏。
A ball is a toy, but football is a game.
球是一种玩具，但足球是一种游戏。
As it turns out, the best games are constructed out of toys.
事实证明，最好的游戏是用玩具构建的。
Why?
为什么？
Because then they are fun on both levels, the toy and the game itself.
因为这样它们在玩具和游戏本身这两个层面上都很有趣。
So for example, in Superhuman, one of our favorite toys is the time auto-completer.
例如，在《超人》中，我们最喜欢的玩具之一就是时间自动完成器。
If you use Superhuman, this is the thing that appears when you hit H, when you snooze or set reminders on emails.
如果您使用 Super human，当您按下 H、暂停或在电子邮件上设置提醒时，就会出现此内容。
You can type whatever you want, it can be gibberish and it does its best to understand you.
你可以输入任何你想要的内容，它可能是乱码，但它会尽力理解你的意思。
For example, if you type in 2D, that becomes two days, 3H is three hours, one MO is one month.
例如，如果您输入 2D，则变为两天，3H 为三小时，1 MO 为一个月。
The time auto-completer is fun because it indulges your playful exploration.
时间自动完成器很有趣，因为它可以让您尽情探索。
Rahul Vohra: In onboardings, it wasn't long before I saw people asking, "What can it do?
Rahul Vohra：在入职培训中，不久我就看到人们问：“它能做什么？
Where does it break?
哪里坏了？
How does it work?
它是如何运作的？
What happens if I keep on typing in a series of tens?
如果我继续输入一系列的十会发生什么？
Well, it turns out that's October the 10th at 10:10 PM.
嗯，结果是 10 月 10 日晚上 10:10。
Well, how about a series of twos?
那么，一系列的两两怎么样？
Well, that's February the second, 2022 at 2:00 PM." Then you start trying more complex inputs like in a fortnight and a day, and that works, which is a pleasant surprise.
嗯，那是 2022 年 2 月 2 日下午 2:00。”然后你开始尝试更复杂的输入，比如两周和一天，结果很有效，这是一个惊喜。
And it's not long before you find more pleasant surprises like time zone math happens without you thinking about it.
不久之后，您就会发现更多令人惊喜的事情，例如时区数学计算，您无需考虑即可发生。
You can just type in 8:00 AM in Tokyo and it turns out that's 8:00 PM Eastern Time and you no longer have to do the time zone math.
您只需输入东京上午 8:00，结果就是东部时间晚上 8:00，您不再需要进行时区计算。
Rahul Vohra: Then most people were really delighted to find out that if you really want, you can snooze emails until never, i.e. you can literally type in never, and the email will never come back.
Rahul Vohra：然后，大多数人都非常高兴地发现，如果您真的愿意，您可以推迟电子邮件，直到永远不会，也就是说，您可以从字面上输入“never”，并且电子邮件将永远不会回来。
It had like a little shrug emoji at the same time.
同时它还有一个小小的耸肩表情符号。
Is this toy going to win awards?
这个玩具会获奖吗？
Nope.
没有。
But is it fun actually, surprisingly yes.
但这实际上有趣吗，令人惊讶的是。
So what I would encourage people to do is, think about the features of their product.
所以我鼓励人们做的是，考虑他们产品的功能。
Do those features indulge, playful, exploration?
这些功能是沉迷的、好玩的、探索性的吗？
Are they fun even without a goal?
即使没有目标，他们也很有趣吗？
And do they elicit moments of pleasant surprise?
它们是否会带来惊喜？
If so, you have a toy and you can combine that with other toys and actually start to build a game.
如果是这样，您就有了一个玩具，您可以将其与其他玩具结合起来并实际开始构建游戏。
Lenny Rachitsky: If people were to listen to this segment of the podcast, they would never guess we're talking about B2B software and email, which I love.
Lenny Rachitsky：如果人们听播客的这一部分，他们永远不会猜到我们正在谈论我喜欢的 B2B 软件和电子邮件。
Let's talk about pricing strategy and your approach to pricing.
让我们谈谈定价策略和定价方法。
Another very contrarian approach that you guys took where you charge $30 a month for email that was free, that people don't need to pay for anywhere.
你们采取了另一种非常逆向的方法，每月收取 30 美元的免费电子邮件费用，人们不需要在任何地方付费。
And it's worked and now a lot of companies are thinking of it this way.
它确实有效，现在很多公司都在这么想。
You've even raised your prices recently.
你们最近甚至还提高了价格。
What have you learned about pricing strategy that you think might be helpful to folks?
关于定价策略，您学到了哪些您认为可能对人们有帮助的知识？
Rahul Vohra: I always say the same thing when it comes to pricing, which is before you figure out pricing, you must first figure out positioning.
Rahul Vohra：在定价方面我总是说同样的话，那就是在你弄清楚定价之前，你必须首先弄清楚定位。
Superhuman is the best email tool on the market.
Superhuman 是市场上最好的电子邮件工具。
We fortunately have the metrics to show this.
幸运的是，我们有指标可以证明这一点。
One of the cool things about selling an email tool, is you can compare the 30 days prior to using Superhuman to the 30 days after, or the year before to the year after.
销售电子邮件工具的一个很酷的事情是，您可以比较使用 Superhuman 之前的 30 天和之后的 30 天，或者前年和后年。
We do that obviously.
显然我们就是这样做的。
We're able to show that people get through their email twice as fast with Superhuman, that they respond one to two days faster, and that they save four hours or more every single week.
我们能够证明，使用 Superhuman，人们处理电子邮件的速度提高了一倍，回复速度加快了一到两天，并且每周节省了四个小时或更多时间。
Because of that, we're very confident in saying that Superhuman is the best email tool on the market and that we're building it for high performing teams and high performing individuals.
正因为如此，我们非常有信心地说 Superhuman 是市场上最好的电子邮件工具，并且我们正在为高绩效团队和高绩效个人构建它。
In other words, we serve the high end of the market.
换句话说，我们服务于高端市场。
Rahul Vohra: Once you understand your positioning, you can then move on to pricing.
Rahul Vohra：一旦了解了自己的定位，就可以继续定价。
And one of the best books on this is a book called Monetizing Innovation by Madhavan Ramanujam.
关于这方面最好的书之一是 Madhavan Ramanujam 写的一本名为“货币化创新”的书。
And Madhavan covers a lot of ways to develop pricing.
Madhavan 涵盖了很多制定定价的方法。
We used one of the easiest methods, which is the Van Westendorp Price Sensitivity .
我们使用了最简单的方法之一，即范韦斯滕多普价格敏感度。
In the early years, we asked, I think it was around a hundred of our earliest users, the following four questions.
早年，我们问了大约一百位最早的用户，以下四个问题。
Number one, at what price would you consider Superhuman to be so expensive that you would not consider buying it?
第一，在什么价格下您会认为 SuperHuman 太贵以至于您不会考虑购买它？
Number two, at what price would you consider Superhuman to be priced so low that you'd be worried about its quality and you wouldn't buy it?
第二，在什么价格下，您会认为《超人》的定价如此之低，以至于您会担心其质量而不会购买它？
At number three, what price would you consider Superhuman to be starting to get expensive, so that it's not out of the question, but you'd have to give some thought to buying it?
第三，你认为《超人》的价格是多少才开始变得昂贵，所以它不是不可能的，但你必须考虑一下购买它？
And number four, at what price would you consider Superhuman to be a bargain?
第四，您认为 SuperHuman 的价格是多少才划算？
A great buy for the money?,
物有所值？
Rahul Vohra: Now most startups orient around price point number four.
Rahul Vohra：现在大多数初创公司都以第四个价格点为导向。
This is especially true for greenfield opportunities, marketplaces, you've got to set the transaction value around price 0.4.
对于新机会、市场尤其如此，您必须将交易价值设置在价格 0.4 左右。
Basically when you want as many people to sign up as is humanly possible, at the top of the funnel.
基本上，当您希望尽可能多的人在渠道顶部注册时。
But the price point that supports our best in class, best in category position, is actually the third one.
但支持我们同类最佳、类别最佳地位的价格点实际上是第三个。
It starts to feel expensive, but then you sit down and you think about the time that you spend in email, the ROI, and you still buy it anyway.
它开始感觉很昂贵，但当你坐下来思考你在电子邮件上花费的时间、投资回报率时，你仍然会购买它。
It turns out that the median answer for the third question was $30 per month, and that's how we picked our price.
事实证明，第三个问题的答案中位数是每月 30 美元，这就是我们选择价格的方式。
Rahul Vohra: And once we picked our price, we then do a quick gut check on market size.
Rahul Vohra：一旦我们选定了价格，我们就会对市场规模进行快速的检查。
For example, we're a venture scale company, but at the time the question that we had to ask is, "Could we grow into a billion dollar valuation?" Well, let's assume that at that point our valuation is 10 times our ARR, so our ARR would have to be a hundred million dollars.
例如，我们是一家风险投资规模的公司，但当时我们不得不问的问题是：“我们的估值能否成长为十亿美元？”好吧，我们假设那时我们的估值是我们的 ARR 的 10 倍，所以我们的 ARR 必须是一亿美元。
Well, that would be 300,000 subscribers at $30 per month.
那么，每月 30 美元的订阅费将达到 300,000 名订阅者。
That is conservatively assuming no other ways to increase ARP.
这是保守地假设没有其他方法可以增加 ARP。
You mentioned price increase, you can also go up market, you can sell new products and so on.
你提到提价，也可以上市场，可以卖新产品等等。
We asked ourselves, without those tricks, do we think we can get to hundreds of thousands of subscribers?
我们问自己，如果没有这些技巧，我们是否可以吸引数十万订阅者？
And we answered emphatically, yes, so we went ahead with that price.
我们斩钉截铁地回答说，是的，所以我们就按照这个价格进行。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, there's a couple more things I want to chat about in the time that we have and then I know you have to run.
Lenny Rachitsky：好的，在我们剩下的时间里我还有几件事想聊，然后我知道你必须逃跑。
One is around AI and the work you guys are doing there.
一是围绕人工智能和你们正在做的工作。
I know that's been a big unlock.
我知道这是一个很大的解锁。
And then two, the stuff you're doing in the enterprise.
然后是两个，你在企业中所做的事情。
Then if we have time, there's a question I want to ask that I think is a really interesting way you guys operate.
然后，如果我们有时间，我想问一个问题，我认为这是你们的一种非常有趣的运作方式。
Lenny Rachitsky: Let's talk about AI first.
Lenny Rachitsky：我们先来谈谈人工智能。
It feels like there's this being in the right place at the right time.
感觉就像是在正确的时间出现在正确的地点。
It feels like you guys have been building this for a while, and then AI just unlocked another stage in what you're able to do with email.
感觉你们已经构建这个东西有一段时间了，然后人工智能刚刚开启了您可以使用电子邮件做的另一个阶段。
Just talk about what you've done and what how you think about AI integrating into what you're doing, how it's enabled you to kind of take off again?
只是谈谈你所做的事情以及你如何看待人工智能融入你正在做的事情，它如何让你再次起飞？
Rahul Vohra: It's true that sometimes startups boil down to being in the right place at the right time.
Rahul Vohra：确实，有时初创公司可以归结为在正确的时间出现在正确的地点。
We actually had a massive AI launch recently about two weeks ago, but even before then we had multiple flagship AI features.
实际上，大约两周前，我们最近发布了大规模的人工智能，但在那之前我们就已经拥有多个旗舰人工智能功能。
Our first AI feature was write with AI, jot down a few words and we'll turn them into a fully written email.
我们的第一个人工智能功能是用人工智能编写，记下几个单词，我们会将它们变成一封完整的书面电子邮件。
We actually match the voice and tone in the emails you've already sent.
我们实际上会匹配您已发送的电子邮件中的语音和语气。
So unlike Co-pilot, unlike Gemini, unlike basically every other email app, the email sounds like you.
因此，与 Co-pilot 不同，与 Gemini 不同，与基本上所有其他电子邮件应用程序不同，电子邮件听起来像您。
This AI feature is way more popular than I expected it to be.
这个人工智能功能比我预想的更受欢迎。
On average today, users are using it 37 times per week.
如今，用户平均每周使用它 37 次。
Rahul Vohra: Number two, our next AI feature was auto summarize, which shows a one line summary above every conversation.
Rahul Vohra：第二，我们的下一个人工智能功能是自动摘要，它在每个对话上方显示一行摘要。
And as new emails arrive, it updates instantly.
当新电子邮件到达时，它会立即更新。
Again, unlike Co-pilot and Gemini, it's pre-computed.
同样，与 Co-pilot 和 Gemini 不同，它是预先计算的。
One of the things we do is, we go above and beyond to make these features really premium and feel amazing.
我们所做的事情之一就是，我们不断超越，让这些功能变得真正优质且令人惊叹。
The next AI feature after that was instant reply.
之后的下一个人工智能功能是即时回复。
Imagine waking up to an inbox where every email already has a draft reply.
想象一下，醒来时看到收件箱，其中每封电子邮件都已经有草稿回复。
You would simply edit and then send, and sometimes you wouldn't even need to edit.
您只需编辑然后发送，有时甚至不需要编辑。
I can share because we just finished this analysis, that over 2024, the percentage of emails that are AI written and sent with Superhuman has grown four times just in one year.
我可以分享，因为我们刚刚完成了这项分析，在 2024 年，由 AI 编写和发送的 Superhuman 电子邮件的百分比仅在一年内就增长了四倍。
Rahul Vohra: Then if I remember correctly, the feature after that was Ask AI.
Rahul Vohra：如果我没记错的话，之后的功能是 Ask AI。
Email of course, is this treasure trove of critical information, things like project statuses, customer communication, meeting updates, deal execution, and so much more.
当然，电子邮件是关键信息的宝库，例如项目状态、客户沟通、会议更新、交易执行等等。
And for over 40 years we've had to rely on what we hilariously call, search.
40 多年来，我们不得不依赖我们俗称的“搜索”。
You have to remember senders, guess keywords, scan subject lines, and now you can just ask, "Where is the queue one offsite?" or, "What are my flight details?" Or, "What is the top five most positive customer responses to the Ask AI launch?" A task by the way, which previously used to take me 20 or 30 minutes to read through all the emails and then create that report now happening in less than five seconds.
您必须记住发件人、猜测关键字、扫描主题行，现在您可以只问“队列一在场外在哪里？”或者，“我的航班详细信息是什么？”或者，“客户对 Ask AI 发布最积极的前五名反应是什么？”顺便说一句，以前我需要花 20 或 30 分钟阅读所有电子邮件，然后创建报告，现在只需不到 5 秒即可完成这项任务。
Rahul Vohra: Recently we, like I said, announced our biggest evolution yet.
Rahul Vohra：正如我所说，最近我们宣布了迄今为止最大的变革。
Superhuman AI is constantly helping you.
超人的人工智能会不断地帮助你。
It's organizing your inbox.
它正在整理您的收件箱。
It's also making sure you never drop the ball.
它还可以确保您永远不会掉球。
We have things that we call Auto Labels.
我们有称为自动标签的东西。
You can now write a short prompt like job applications or requests to review work, and you can then immediately see when emails match that prompt, when people apply for a job or they ask you to review work.
现在，您可以编写简短的提示，例如工作申请或审查工作的请求，然后您可以立即查看电子邮件何时与该提示匹配，何时人们申请工作或要求您审查工作。
With Auto Reminders, if your email needs a response, Superhuman will now automatically set a reminder.
借助自动提醒，如果您的电子邮件需要回复，Superhuman 现在会自动设置提醒。
You don't have to remember to do that and you'll never drop the ball again.
您不必记住这样做，并且您将永远不会再犯错。
All you need to do is hit send.
您所需要做的就是点击发送。
With Auto Drafts, Superhuman will now automatically draft your follow-up emails for you and will soon be drafting replies to basically every email that needs a response.
通过自动草稿，Super human 现在将自动为您起草后续电子邮件，并且很快就会为基本上每封需要回复的电子邮件起草回复。
Rahul Vohra: And finally, with what we call Workflows, you can now turn email into repeatable automated workflows.
Rahul Vohra：最后，通过我们所说的工作流程，您现在可以将电子邮件转变为可重复的自动化工作流程。
For example, I often get emails from people who are interested in working at Superhuman, and I would normally reply to that candidate and I would let them know that the team will take a look.
例如，我经常收到有兴趣在 Superhuman 工作的人发来的电子邮件，我通常会回复该候选人，让他们知道团队会考虑一下。
I'll then forward to the original message, including any resume or any letter to our head of people and operations and ask her to reach out, if interested.
然后，我将转发原始消息，包括任何简历或给我们的人员和运营主管的任何信件，并请她联系（如果有兴趣）。
With Workflows, I can now automate this entire process.
借助工作流程，我现在可以自动化整个过程。
It's, you can imagine, creating a little flowchart of what has to happen.
您可以想象，它是创建一个关于必须发生的事情的小流程图。
Not only does that save a huge amount of time, with Workflows you don't even have to be in your inbox.
这不仅可以节省大量时间，而且使用工作流程，您甚至不必在收件箱中。
In fact, you don't even have to be working.
事实上，你甚至不必工作。
You could be on vacation while Superhuman AI is working for you.
当超人人工智能为你工作时，你可能正在度假。
Lenny Rachitsky: This sounds like product market fit to me.
Lenny Rachitsky：这听起来像是适合我的产品市场。
This all sounds wonderful.
这一切听起来都很棒。
It just makes sense.
这很有道理。
This is the stuff we've been promised, our underwater cities and flying cars and then just email that just works magically and replies for us and all these things.
这就是我们所承诺的东西，我们的水下城市和飞行汽车，然后就是神奇地工作并为我们回复和所有这些东西的电子邮件。
I love all these things you're doing.
我喜欢你所做的所有这些事情。
Lenny Rachitsky: For folks that are building with AI.
Lenny Rachitsky：对于那些使用人工智能进行构建的人来说。
I'm curious, what's maybe been the biggest surprise, either good or bad, building so deeply on top of AI models that you think might be helpful for folks to just, "Watch out for this," or, "Hey, check this out."?
我很好奇，最大的惊喜是什么，无论是好是坏，在人工智能模型之上如此深入地构建，你认为这可能有助于人们“小心这个”，或者“嘿，看看这个”？
Rahul Vohra: I think for me the biggest surprise has been how unpredictable the user love has been in terms of what they love and what they don't love.
Rahul Vohra：我认为对我来说最大的惊喜是用户的喜好是如何难以预测的，他们喜欢什么和不喜欢什么。
For example, write with AI.
例如，用AI写作。
This sounds like a commodity feature and on all surface level it is.
这听起来像是一项商品功能，从表面上看确实如此。
Every email app, every writing surface has a write with AI feature in.
每个电子邮件应用程序、每个书写表面都具有人工智能写入功能。
I would wager ours is the best at emails and surprisingly that's what we do.
我敢打赌，我们的电子邮件处理能力是最好的，令人惊讶的是，这就是我们所做的。
But the surprising thing was just how much people love it and how often it gets used.
但令人惊讶的是人们对它的喜爱程度以及它的使用频率。
37 times per user per week is still mind-blowing to me.
每个用户每周 37 次仍然让我兴奋不已。
I had not expected that, so that's the most surprising thing.
这是我没想到的，所以这是最令人惊讶的事情。
Rahul Vohra: And on the flip side, there were certain AI features where I did expect a ton of usage, but we didn't quite get the usage that we were perhaps hoping for.
Rahul Vohra：另一方面，我确实期望某些人工智能功能能得到大量使用，但我们并没有完全得到我们所希望的使用。
Hopefully I'm not AI Kramer, but basically everything I thought would work out well, people use it less than they thought they did.
希望我不是 AI Kramer，但基本上我认为一切都会顺利进行，人们使用它的次数比他们想象的要少。
And everything where I was like, "I don't know, but let's build the thing," people love that.
我所想的一切都是“我不知道，但让我们来构建这个东西”，人们喜欢这样。
Rahul Vohra: Maybe I should just create an anti-me to do AI road-mapping.
Rahul Vohra：也许我应该创建一个反我来绘制人工智能路线图。
Lenny Rachitsky: That's in a simple agent right there, whatever Rahul says, do the opposite.
Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个简单的代理，无论 Rahul 说什么，都做相反的事情。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。
Another maybe a last topic.
另一个可能是最后一个话题。
I know that you guys are starting to move into the enterprise.
我知道你们已经开始进入企业了。
When people think of Superhuman, they think of it's consumer-y, it's for people, and you guys are doing a lot of work to make it a B2B enterprise product.
当人们想到 Super human 时，他们会想到它是面向消费者的，是为人们服务的，你们正在做大量的工作来使其成为 B2B 企业产品。
For founders maybe that are starting to think about this transitioning from PLG to sales led and B2B enterprising, what have you learned about just what it takes to get to that point and what does that sales motion look like for you guys?
对于创始人来说，也许他们已经开始考虑从 PLG 向销售主导和 B2B 进取的转变，对于达到这一点需要什么以及销售行动对你们来说是什么样的，你们了解到了什么？
Rahul Vohra: In some ways, it's very like selling to prosumers, except these users are not coming from Gmail where prosumers would normally come from, they're coming from Outlook.
Rahul Vohra：在某些方面，这很像向产消者销售产品，只不过这些用户不是来自产消者通常来自的 Gmail，而是来自 Outlook。
And Outlook users have very different expectations to Gmail users.
Outlook 用户与 Gmail 用户的期望截然不同。
For example, Outlook users expect their email app to also be a fully featured calendar app, whereas Gmail users are happy with those two things being entirely different.
例如，Outlook 用户希望他们的电子邮件应用程序也是功能齐全的日历应用程序，而 Gmail 用户则对这两者完全不同感到满意。
As a result, we've invested in calendar very heavily and we continue to do so.
因此，我们在日历方面投入了大量资金，并将继续这样做。
There's only so much I can say, but it's pretty exciting.
我只能说这么多，但它非常令人兴奋。
Rahul Vohra: Outlook users are also used to certain safeguards, like if you've used Outlook in an enterprise, warnings when a recipient is external to your domain or what Outlook users might know as sensitivity labels.
Rahul Vohra：Outlook 用户也习惯于某些安全措施，例如，如果您在企业中使用过 Outlook，则当收件人位于您的域外部时会发出警告，或者 Outlook 用户可能知道的敏感度标签。
And as a result we've built support for external recipient indicators and sensitivity labels.
因此，我们建立了对外部收件人指示器和敏感度标签的支持。
But in some ways it's very different to selling to prosumers because there are other stakeholders involved.
但在某些方面，这与向产消者销售非常不同，因为还涉及其他利益相关者。
For example, we've built support for enterprise mobile management by implementing Microsoft Intune.
例如，我们通过实施 Microsoft Intune 构建了对企业移动管理的支持。
Rahul Vohra: We recently sold one of the big three strategy consulting firms, which is super exciting.
Rahul Vohra：我们最近出售了三大战略咨询公司之一，这非常令人兴奋。
I can't say which one, but they love Superhuman and they have thousands of people internally using Superhuman.
我不能说是哪一个，但他们喜欢 SuperHuman，而且他们内部有成千上万的人使用 SuperHuman。
This is after a year...
这是一年后的事了...
They've been piloting for a year and then accelerating over the last few months.
他们已经进行了一年的试点，然后在过去的几个月里加速推进。
We only just got them the mobile app, believe it or not.
不管你信不信，我们刚刚给他们提供了移动应用程序。
Because, at an enterprise like that, there are significant controls on what a allowed compliant mobile app can and cannot do.
因为，在这样的企业中，对允许的合规移动应用程序可以做什么和不能做什么有严格的控制。
For example, IT needs to be able to control which apps can save attachments or which apps you can copy and paste text into from email.
例如，IT 需要能够控制哪些应用程序可以保存附件，或者可以控制哪些应用程序可以将电子邮件中的文本复制并粘贴到其中。
And for many enterprises, those controls are super important.
对于许多企业来说，这些控制措施非常重要。
Lenny Rachitsky: Wow, okay.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：哇，好吧。
So it sounds like essentially just building all these features that large companies need, is kind of the road you're on right now.
因此，听起来基本上只是构建大公司需要的所有这些功能，这就是您现在正在走的路。
Rahul Vohra: Exactly.
拉胡尔·沃拉：没错。
And there's two stakeholders.
有两个利益相关者。
There's the users, which are actually quite different because they're Outlook users and Calendar is one of the main ways that manifests.
用户实际上是非常不同的，因为他们是 Outlook 用户，而日历是体现的主要方式之一。
There's a whole bunch of other stakeholders, IT is one of them, but there are others as well.
还有很多其他利益相关者，IT 是其中之一，但还有其他利益相关者。
For example, companies this large have workplace management groups who want to see analytics of how people are working, how they can make their teams more efficient, so it truly is a multi-threaded sale with multiple stakeholders.
例如，这么大的公司拥有工作场所管理团队，他们希望了解人们如何工作、如何提高团队效率的分析，因此这确实是一个涉及多个利益相关者的多线程销售。
Lenny Rachitsky: They had a product from Linear on the podcast , and he actually, I don't know if you heard that episode, but he talks about how they decide what to prioritize, the thing they never build is middle managers needing to track how their reports are doing and things like that.
Lenny Rachitsky：他们在播客上有一个来自 Linear 的产品，实际上，我不知道你是否听过那一集，但他谈到了他们如何决定优先考虑什么，他们从未构建的是中层管理人员需要跟踪他们的报告的执行情况以及类似的事情。
That's an interesting opportunity for you guys maybe to cut stuff.
这对你们来说是一个有趣的机会，也许可以削减一些东西。
I don't know.
我不知道。
Lenny Rachitsky: Anyway, I want to end on one more nugget.
Lenny Rachitsky：无论如何，我想以更多的金块作为结尾。
Okay, I'm glad we have time for this.
好的，我很高兴我们有时间。
You shared that you have this system internally at Superhuman for making decisions.
您分享说您在 Superhuman 内部有这个系统用于决策。
You call it Single Decisive Reason, SDR.
你称之为单一决定性原因，SDR。
What is that?
那是什么？
Rahul Vohra: SDR is a thinking tool that I picked up from Reid Hoffman during my time at LinkedIn.
Rahul Vohra：SDR 是我在 LinkedIn 工作期间从 Reid Hoffman 那里学到的一种思维工具。
The idea here is that for important decisions, you should be able to identify one, one reason that on its own supports the decision.
这里的想法是，对于重要的决策，您应该能够确定一个单独的理由来支持该决策。
It's based on the observation that all too often we rely on a collection of weak reasons to justify decisions.
它基于这样的观察：我们常常依赖一系列薄弱的理由来证明决策的合理性。
It's very, very easy to do this.
做到这一点非常非常容易。
Imagine you are contemplating a decision, you write a list of the pros and the cons.
想象一下您正在考虑做出决定，您写下了利弊清单。
There are three pros, but let's say there are 10 or 15 cons.
有 3 个优点，但假设有 10 或 15 个缺点。
The sheer number of cons, the effort of thinking them through, the time it took to write them down, is going to affect you, consciously or worse subconsciously.
缺点的数量、思考它们的努力、把它们写下来所花费的时间，都会有意识地或更糟地无意识地影响你。
This is especially true, I've seen in group settings, which just in general are a little bit more risk averse and a little bit more consensus driven.
我在团体环境中看到这一点尤其如此，一般来说，团体环境更厌恶风险，更倾向于共识驱动。
Rahul Vohra: So whenever anyone is making a decision and they bring that decision to me and they say, "Well, we want to do this because of X, Y, Z, and there are multiple reasons." I ask them, "What's the SDR?
Rahul Vohra：所以每当有人做出决定时，他们把这个决定告诉我，然后他们说，“好吧，我们想这样做是因为 X、Y、Z，而且有多种原因。”我问他们：“什么是特别提款权？
What's the single decisive reason?" If they can't yet isolate it, that tells me they haven't yet figured out why they want to make the decision.
唯一的决定性原因是什么？”如果他们还不能隔离它，那就说明他们还没有弄清楚为什么要做出这个决定。
It doesn't mean the decision is wrong, it just means that they haven't figured out the singular reason why we should do the thing.
这并不意味着这个决定是错误的，只是意味着他们还没有弄清楚我们应该这样做的唯一原因。
They can then go through their list of reasons and ask, "Is this alone enough to support this decision?" Meaning if this was true and all the other things were not true, would I still do it?
然后他们可以列出理由并询问：“仅凭这一点就足以支持这个决定吗？”这意味着如果这是真的而其他所有事情都不是真的，我还会这样做吗？
And sometimes we still do, but actually sometimes we don't.
有时我们仍然这样做，但实际上有时我们不这样做。
We realize that a collection of weak reasons alone means that, for example, the outcome is less likely than we thought it was, or it was hiding a really strong reason on the other side of the decision.
我们意识到，仅靠一系列薄弱理由就意味着，例如，结果的可能性比我们想象的要小，或者决策的另一面隐藏了一个非常强有力的理由。
Lenny Rachitsky: That is very cool.
Lenny Rachitsky：这非常酷。
This is just when someone comes to you with a decision, the way you use this idea is, you ask them what's the single decisive reason?
这就是当有人向你提出决定时，你使用这个想法的方式是，你问他们唯一的决定性原因是什么？
Rahul Vohra: Pretty much.
拉胡尔·沃拉：差不多。
Yeah.
是的。
And what they can't do, obviously this happens, people are human and natural, they'll usually start mentioning three or four things, and that's fine.
而他们做不到的，显然这种情况发生了，人是人性的，也是自然的，他们通常会开始提到三到四件事，这很好。
And then I will say, "Okay, but if only one of those was true and you're still advocating for this decision, what is it?" I think that's just a bar for a good decision.
然后我会说，“好吧，但如果其中只有一个是真的，而你仍然主张这个决定，那会是什么？”我认为这只是做出明智决定的一个障碍。
Lenny Rachitsky: Why is that so important?
Lenny Rachitsky：为什么这如此重要？
Because you found that a bunch of low quality reasons just don't add up to a good reason to do something?
因为你发现一堆低质量的理由并不能构成做某事的好理由？
Rahul Vohra: Multiple reasons, which is ironic.
Rahul Vohra：有多种原因，这很讽刺。
But that's my SDR for why SDRs work.
但这就是我的特别提款权为何有效的原因。
Which is yes, multiple low quality reasons rarely add up to a high quality reason to do something.
是的，多个低质量原因很少会加起来成为做某事的高质量原因。
But there are also other things as well, which is, any decision you take has an opportunity cost.
但还有其他事情，那就是，你做出的任何决定都有机会成本。
Any feature you build is another feature that you didn't build.
您构建的任何功能都是您未构建的另一个功能。
If we're going to build this for a collection of weak reasons, whereas we could build that for one strong reason, I'd much rather build that for one strong reason.
如果我们要出于一系列薄弱的原因来构建它，而我们可以为了一个强有力的原因而构建它，那么我宁愿为了一个强有力的原因而构建它。
Now this is all other things being equal, and these things often end up being quite complicated, but you can apply SDR all the way down.
现在，在所有其他条件相同的情况下，这些事情最终往往会变得相当复杂，但你可以一直应用 SDR。
You just did that to me, what's my SDR for SDR?
你刚刚对我这么做了，我的 SDR 对 SDR 来说是多少？
Lenny Rachitsky: There we go.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：我们开始吧。
Rahul, is there anything that we haven't covered that you wanted to cover?
Rahul，还有什么我们没有讲到但您想讲到的吗？
Is there any last piece of wisdom you want to leave listeners with before we let you go?
在我们让你离开之前，你还有什么最后的智慧想留给听众吗？
Rahul Vohra: I feel good.
拉胡尔·沃拉：我感觉很好。
I think we covered a lot.
我认为我们涵盖了很多。
Thank you for asking amazing questions.
感谢您提出令人惊奇的问题。
This was really fun.
这真的很有趣。
Lenny Rachitsky: This was incredible.
Lenny Rachitsky：这太不可思议了。
Okay, so let me just ask you this then.
好吧，那我就问你这个问题吧。
Where can folks find you online?
人们可以在哪里在线找到您？
Where can they check out Superhuman?
他们在哪里可以查看《超人》？
What should they know before they try it out?
在尝试之前他们应该知道什么？
And then just how can listeners be useful to you?
那么听众如何对你有用呢？
Rahul Vohra: If you want to find me online, I am generally on X.
Rahul Vohra：如果你想在网上找到我，我通常在 X 上。
That is x.com/rahulvohra, R-A-H-U-L V-O-H-R-A.
即 x.com/rahulvohra，R-A-H-U-L V-O-H-R-A。
My DMs are open, so feel free to ping me.
我的私信是开放的，所以请随时联系我。
If you're going to do that, I would suggest also emailing me, that's rahul@superhuman.com, and hopefully I'll see your message soon.
如果您打算这样做，我建议您也给我发电子邮件，地址是 rahul@super human.com，希望我很快就能看到您的消息。
Rahul Vohra: If you haven't tried Superhuman, then gosh, what are you doing?
Rahul Vohra：如果你还没有尝试过《超人》，那么天哪，你在做什么？
This is my call to you to do so, because your time is worth more than whatever you think it might be.
我呼吁您这样做，因为您的时间比您想象的更有价值。
So go download Superhuman and give it a shot.
所以，快去下载 Super human 并尝试一下吧。
Invite your team.
邀请你的团队。
The metrics are real.
指标是真实的。
I know they sound like the kind of metrics that startups make up, but getting through your email twice as fast, responding one to two days sooner, saving four hours or more every single week, they're all real.
我知道它们听起来像是初创公司制定的那种指标，但处理电子邮件的速度提高了一倍，回复时间提前一到两天，每周节省四个小时或更多，它们都是真实的。
Rahul Vohra: Actually, speaking of which, the consulting firm I mentioned earlier, because they're so into data and into analysis, they wanted to corroborate those numbers for themselves, and so they did.
Rahul Vohra：实际上，说到这一点，我之前提到的咨询公司，因为他们如此热衷于数据和分析，他们想亲自证实这些数字，所以他们做到了。
They ran their own internal case study on Superhuman, and they were like, "Yeah, you're saving our partners 3.3 hours per person per week.
他们对 Superhuman 进行了内部案例研究，他们说：“是的，你为我们的合作伙伴每人每周节省了 3.3 个小时。
And there's only one other tool that we've bought that does that, which is ChatGPT.
我们购买的只有另一种工具可以做到这一点，那就是 ChatGPT。
So thank you.
所以谢谢你。
We love Superhuman.
我们喜欢超人。
We're rolling it out." If that sounds interesting to you or your company, please do give it a shot.
我们正在推出它。”如果您或您的公司对此感兴趣，请尝试一下。
Lenny Rachitsky: That is super cool.
Lenny Rachitsky：那太酷了。
Reflecting back on what I imagine this conversation would look like, a lot of contrarian thinking and attention to detail, I think that's exactly what it was.
回想一下我想象中的这次谈话，很多逆向思维和对细节的关注，我认为事实就是这样。
Rahul, you're awesome.
拉胡尔，你太棒了。
Thank you so much for being here.
非常感谢您来到这里。
Bye everyone.: Thank you so much for listening.
大家再见：非常感谢您的聆听。
If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.
如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。
Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review, as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.
另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。
You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.
您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。
See you in the next episode.
下一集见。