A guide to difficult conversations, building high-trust teams, and designing a life you love
Lenny Rachitsky: When clients come to you, what is the biggest gap they have that is keeping them from being successful as leaders?
Lenny Rachitsky：当客户来找你时，他们最大的差距是什么，阻碍他们成为成功的领导者？
Rachel Lockett: Most leaders, especially technical leaders, assume they have to have all the answers.
Rachel Lockett：大多数领导者，尤其是技术领导者，认为他们必须掌握所有答案。
People have climbed the ladder because they've been dependable, reliable, the smartest person in the room.
人们之所以能登上阶梯，是因为他们是可靠的、可靠的、是房间里最聪明的人。
But great leaders know that when you try to advise and have the answer all the time, you're not actually equipping your team to go solve the hard problems.
但伟大的领导者知道，当你试图提供建议并始终得到答案时，你实际上并没有让你的团队去解决难题。
You're training your team to come to you with all of the hard problems.
您正在训练您的团队来为您解决所有难题。
Lenny Rachitsky: Difficult conversations are difficult.
Lenny Rachitsky：困难的对话很困难。
How do we help people make them less difficult?
我们如何帮助人们减少困难？
Rachel Lockett: We operate in tech.
Rachel Lockett：我们从事科技业务。
We're supposed to give all of ourselves, all of our time, all of our energy to this endeavor, and it's purely logical.
我们应该为这项努力付出我们所有的时间、我们所有的时间、我们所有的精力，这是完全合乎逻辑的。
That's not at all true.
这根本不是真的。
It's completely emotional.
这完全是情绪化的。
Professionals have feelings.
专业人士有感情。
People, when they want to have a conflict, they come in ready to prove their point.
人们，当他们想要发生冲突时，他们会准备好证明自己的观点。
There's a misguided view that the goal is to convince the other person that what they're doing is wrong.
有一种错误的观点认为，目标是让对方相信他们所做的事情是错误的。
Actually, the goal of any conflict is to create mutual understanding.
事实上，任何冲突的目的都是为了建立相互理解。
Lenny Rachitsky: Talk about what you've learned about helping leaders in tech avoid burnout.
Lenny Rachitsky：谈谈您在帮助科技行业领导者避免倦怠方面学到的知识。
Rachel Lockett: When people are in their gifts and their strengths, they have more energy.
雷切尔·洛克特：当人们发挥自己的天赋和优势时，他们就会有更多的能量。
We all have more energy when we're operating from the things we naturally are good at.
当我们从事我们天生擅长的事情时，我们都会有更多的精力。
It's no one else's job to help you live in your gifts.
帮助你活出你的天赋并不是别人的工作。
What I notice in big companies is people are often annoyed or frustrated with their management for not making their job more interesting.
我在大公司注意到的是，人们经常对他们的管理层没有让他们的工作变得更有趣而感到恼火或沮丧。
No, your manager's job is to help you perform in the job you are hired to do.
不，您经理的工作是帮助您完成受雇的工作。
It's your job to navigate your career.
驾驭你的职业生涯是你的工作。
Lenny Rachitsky: The power of this is this makes your life so much better.
Lenny Rachitsky：它的力量在于它让你的生活变得更加美好。
Rachel Lockett: Lenny, let's try it.
雷切尔·洛克特：莱尼，我们试试吧。
So, I want you to tell me a challenge, something that you're struggling with.
所以，我希望你告诉我一个挑战，一些你正在努力克服的事情。
Lenny Rachitsky: The main thing I struggle with these days is just...
Lenny Rachitsky：这些天我遇到的主要问题是......
Today, my guest is Rachel Lockett, an executive coach and former longtime HR leader at Pinterest and at Stripe.
今天，我的嘉宾是 Rachel Lockett，她是一名高管教练，也是 Pinterest 和 Stripe 的前长期人力资源主管。
She works with CEOs, and founders, and leaders at tech companies on both ways that they are, emotional and positive intelligence, resilience and courage, and what they do, setting vision and strategy, prioritizing, and building trusted and accountable teams.
她与科技公司的首席执行官、创始人和领导者合作，探讨他们的情感和积极智慧、韧性和勇气，以及他们所做的事情，制定愿景和战略，确定优先顺序，并建立值得信赖和负责任的团队。
She's someone I've heard a lot about over the years from other podcast guests, and this conversation is powerful.
多年来我从其他播客嘉宾那里听到了很多关于她的事情，这次谈话很有影响力。
It's jam-packed with advice, and tips, and frameworks that'll make you a better leader and also a better person.
它充满了建议、技巧和框架，可以让你成为更好的领导者，也成为更好的人。
We even do a couple live coaching sessions to demonstrate some of Rachel's approaches.
我们甚至举办了几次现场辅导课程来展示雷切尔的一些方法。
And as you'll see, I had a number of epiphanies during this conversation.
正如你将看到的，在这次谈话中我有了很多顿悟。
If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube.
如果您喜欢这个播客，请不要忘记订阅并在您最喜欢的播客应用程序或 YouTube 中关注它。
It helps tremendously.
它有很大帮助。
Lenny Rachitsky: And if you become an annual subscriber of my newsletter, you get a year free of a ton of incredible products, including Devon Lovable, Replit Bolt, NNN, Linear, Superhuman, Descript, Wispr Flow, Gamma, Perplexity, Warp, Granola, Magic Patterns, Raycast, JPRD, Mobin, and Stripe Atlas.
Lenny Rachitsky：如果您成为我的时事通讯的年度订阅者，您将获得一年免费的大量令人难以置信的产品，包括 Devon Lovable、Replit Bolt、NNN、Linear、Super human、Descript、Wispr Flow、Gamma、Perplexity、Warp、Granola、Magic Patterns、Raycast、JPRD、Mobin 和 Stripe Atlas。
Head on over to lennysnewsletter.com and click Product Pass.
前往 lennysnewsletter.com 并单击 Product Pass。
With that, I bring you Rachel Lockett after a short word from our sponsors.
在我们的赞助商简短发言后，我为您带来了 Rachel Lockett。
Lenny Rachitsky: 1.3%, it's a small number, but in the right context, it's a powerful one.
Lenny Rachitsky：1.3%，这是一个很小的数字，但在正确的背景下，它是一个强大的数字。
Stripe processed just over $1.4 trillion last year.
Stripe 去年处理的金额略高于 1.4 万亿美元。
That figure works out to be about 1.3% of global GDP.
该数字约占全球 GDP 的 1.3%。
It's a lot, but it's also just 1.3%.
虽然很多，但也只有 1.3%。
Stripe handles the massive scale and complexity of many of the world's fastest-growing enterprises, including 78% of the Forbes AI 50 and more than half of the Fortune 100.
Stripe 处理着许多全球增长最快的企业的大规模和复杂性问题，其中包括 78% 的福布斯 AI 50 强企业和一半以上的财富 100 强企业。
There's a reason I've had more leaders from Stripe on this podcast than any other company.
在这个播客中，来自 Stripe 的领导者数量比任何其他公司都多，这是有原因的。
They know how to build great products that scale and that people love.
他们知道如何打造可扩展且人们喜爱的优秀产品。
Lenny Rachitsky: Stripe is also a lot more than just payments.
Lenny Rachitsky：Stripe 不仅仅是支付。
They've also got a category-leading billing solution and a highly-optimized checkout experience built specifically to increase your checkout conversion.
他们还拥有类别领先的计费解决方案和专门为提高结帐转化率而构建的高度优化的结帐体验。
Enterprises like Atlassian, Figma, and Urban use Stripe to create fully branded and customized checkout pages with access to more than 125 global payment methods.
Atlassian、Figma 和 Urban 等企业使用 Stripe 创建完全品牌化和定制的结账页面，可以访问超过 125 种全球支付方式。
Join the ranks of industry leaders like Salesforce, OpenAI, and Pepsi that are using Stripe to grow faster and grow GDP.
加入 Salesforce、OpenAI 和 Pepsi 等行业领导者的行列，利用 Stripe 实现更快增长并提高 GDP。
Learn how Stripe can help your business grow at stripe.
了解 Stripe 如何帮助您的业务在 stripe 上发展。
com.
com.
Lenny Rachitsky: My podcast guest tonight love talking about craft, and taste, and agency, and product market fit.
Lenny Rachitsky：今晚我的播客嘉宾喜欢谈论工艺、品味、代理和产品市场契合度。
You know what we don't love talking about?
你知道我们不喜欢谈论什么吗？
SOC 2.
SOC 2。
That's where Vanta comes in.
这就是万塔登场的地方。
Vanta helps companies of all sizes get compliant fast and stay that way with industry-leading AI, automation, and continuous monitoring.
Vanta 通过行业领先的人工智能、自动化和持续监控帮助各种规模的公司快速获得合规性并保持这种状态。
Whether you're a startup tackling your first SOC 2, or ISO 27001, or an enterprise managing vendor risk, Vanta's trust management platform makes it quicker, easier, and more scalable.
无论您是解决第一个 SOC 2 或 ISO 27001 问题的初创公司，还是管理供应商风险的企业，Vanta 的信任管理平台都可以使其更快、更轻松且更具可扩展性。
Vanta also helps you complete security questionnaires up to five times faster so that you could win bigger deals sooner.
Vanta 还可以帮助您以五倍的速度完成安全调查问卷，以便您可以更快地赢得更大的交易。
The result, according to a recent IDC study, Vanta customers slashed over $500,000 a year and are three times more productive.
根据 IDC 最近的一项研究，Vanta 客户每年节省了超过 50 万美元，而生产力却提高了三倍。
Establishing trust isn't optional.
建立信任不是可选的。
Vanta makes it automatic.
Vanta 使其自动化。
Get $1,000 off at vanta.com/lenny.
访问vanta.com/lenny 可享 1,000 美元折扣。
Lenny Rachitsky: Rachel, thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast.
Lenny Rachitsky：Rachel，非常感谢您来到这里，欢迎来到播客。
Rachel Lockett: Thank you so much for having me, Lenny.
雷切尔·洛克特：非常感谢你邀请我，莱尼。
I am honored to be here.
我很荣幸来到这里。
Lenny Rachitsky: I'm honored to have you here.
Lenny Rachitsky：很荣幸您能来到这里。
I was going to start with a different question, but we were chatting ahead of this conversation and I always like to ask guests, what do you want people to get out of this conversation?
我本打算从一个不同的问题开始，但我们在这次谈话之前进行了交谈，我总是喜欢问客人，您希望人们从这次谈话中得到什么？
And I loved your answer, so I just want you to share this.
我喜欢你的回答，所以我只想让你分享这个。
So, let me just ask you, what are you hoping people get out of the conversation we're about to have?
那么，让我问你，你希望人们从我们即将进行的对话中得到什么？
Rachel Lockett: Genuinely, I hope that your listeners take away that the human side of business building is incredibly fun and impactful and that it's easy to do.
雷切尔·洛克特：说实话，我希望你的听众明白，商业建设中人性化的一面是非常有趣和有影响力的，而且很容易做到。
They can do it with simple tools.
他们可以用简单的工具做到这一点。
So, I'm hopeful that through this conversation, heads of product, heads of engineering, founders walk away feeling more empowered and more motivated to attune to the people around them.
因此，我希望通过这次对话，产品负责人、工程负责人、创始人在离开时会感到更有权力、更有动力去适应周围的人。
Lenny Rachitsky: So, what I'm hearing is just if you're struggling with the human side of building a product, building a team, building a company, there are answers.
Lenny Rachitsky：所以，我听到的是，如果你在构建产品、构建团队、创建公司的人性方面遇到困难，这里有答案。
You can do it.
你可以做到的。
Rachel Lockett: Yes, exactly.
雷切尔·洛克特：是的，完全正确。
It is achievable, and it's actually most natural.
这是可以实现的，而且实际上是最自然的。
Leaders want to care about the people they work with.
领导者希望关心与他们一起工作的人。
They want to empower those around them.
他们希望赋予周围的人力量。
But sometimes the busyness of our world gets in the way and the urgency of the litany of things to do distracts you from the people in front of you.
但有时候，世界的忙碌会妨碍你，一连串的紧急事情会分散你对面前人的注意力。
And actually, if you really understand the talent around you and you create an environment where they can be successful, your business will thrive.
事实上，如果你真正了解周围的人才，并创造一个让他们成功的环境，你的企业就会蓬勃发展。
Lenny Rachitsky: I think the hardest part of this for people is just there's the knowing this can be helped with.
Lenny Rachitsky：我认为对人们来说最困难的部分就是知道这可以得到帮助。
The other is just being vulnerable enough to seek help and to take this on because it's so hard.
另一个只是因为太脆弱而寻求帮助并接受这件事，因为这太难了。
Just like, "Oh, maybe I'm not a great manager." That doesn't feel good.
就像，“哦，也许我不是一个伟大的经理。”这感觉不太好。
Rachel Lockett: Yeah, that's true.
雷切尔·洛克特：是的，确实如此。
I mean, it's vulnerable to seek help, but I think your audience, I know to be incredibly committed to growth.
我的意思是，寻求帮助很容易，但我认为你的观众，我知道他们非常致力于成长。
I hear of people who come on your podcast and they've spent decades focused on self-improvement.
我听说有人来听你的播客，他们花了几十年的时间专注于自我完善。
And I actually want to tell you a story about one of my clients who loves your podcast, and I was talking to him last week.
我实际上想告诉你一个关于我的一位客户的故事，他喜欢你的播客，上周我和他交谈过。
He's a client I've seen for 10 years, and he's a person who exemplifies a commitment to personal growth.
他是我认识了 10 年的客户，他是一个致力于个人成长的典范。
Rachel Lockett: I started working with him when he was a frontline engineering manager at Coinbase, and we talked about who he is, what his strengths are, and his bigger picture why.
Rachel Lockett：当他担任 Coinbase 的一线工程经理时，我开始与他合作，我们讨论了他是谁、他的优势是什么以及他的大局观。
And he talked about this dream of creating a global movement one day.
他谈到了有一天发起一场全球运动的梦想。
He was really focused on building community, and he thought the path for creating possibility in the world around him was creating a strong community around him.
他真正专注于建立社区，他认为在他周围的世界中创造可能性的途径是在他周围创建一个强大的社区。
And he continually worked on his leadership capacity.
他不断努力提高自己的领导能力。
And over the 10 years, at some point, he created a tattoo on his arm that's a sun with a redwood grove around it that reminded him of his core strengths and his purpose.
十年来，在某个时刻，他在手臂上纹了一个太阳纹身，周围有红杉树林，提醒他自己的核心优势和目标。
And today, guess what he's doing, Lenny?
今天，猜猜他在做什么，莱尼？
Rachel Lockett: ...
雷切尔·洛克特：……
but he's running a community, a global community for Coinbase called Base and the Base app.
但他正在运营一个社区，一个名为 Base 的 Coinbase 全球社区和 Base 应用程序。
Rachel Lockett: It's the largest Ethereum L2 in the world, and it's a community of creators and developers, and he's having a great time.
Rachel Lockett：这是世界上最大的以太坊 L2，这是一个由创作者和开发者组成的社区，他玩得很开心。
He's having more fun than ever.
他比以往任何时候都更开心。
And so, I think for the people who are committed to excellence and impact, recognizing that if they lean into their gifts and they get back into their purpose, they can have more fun while having an impact on the world.
因此，我认为对于那些致力于卓越和影响力的人来说，认识到如果他们依靠自己的天赋并回到自己的目标，他们可以在对世界产生影响的同时获得更多乐趣。
Lenny Rachitsky: This story reminds me of just why I love these sorts of conversations because the sort of stuff we're going to be talking about, and we'll get into it right after this final preamble, is stuff that's usually locked away in these very small rooms, are only accessible to folks with a bunch of money.
莱尼·拉奇茨基（Lenny Rachitsky）：这个故事让我想起了为什么我喜欢这类对话，因为我们将要讨论的东西，我们将在最后的序言之后立即讨论，这些东西通常被锁在这些非常小的房间里，只有有很多钱的人才能接触到。
This is stuff people pay tens of thousands of dollars, hundreds of thousands of dollars for over the course of their career.
这是人们在职业生涯中花费数万、数十万美元购买的东西。
And I just love the idea of sharing all this with everyone to help all learn from the stuff that you've learned from all these people you've worked with.
我喜欢与每个人分享这一切，以帮助所有人从与你共事的人那里学到的东西中学习。
So, I'm really excited to be digging into stuff.
所以，我真的很高兴能够深入研究。
The first thing I want to dive into, I actually asked you, when clients come to you, what is the biggest gap they have that is keeping them from being successful as leaders?
我想深入探讨的第一件事是，我实际上问过你，当客户来找你时，他们最大的差距是什么，阻碍他们成为成功的领导者？
And you told me it's essentially knowing when to coach versus knowing when to just tell people what to do and learning to coach.
你告诉我，本质上是知道何时进行辅导，而不是知道何时只是告诉人们该做什么并学习辅导。
Talk about what you see there, why this is so important, and how you help people develop the skill.
谈谈你在那里看到的、为什么这如此重要，以及你如何帮助人们发展这项技能。
Rachel Lockett: I think that most leaders, especially technical leaders, assume they have to have all the answers.
Rachel Lockett：我认为大多数领导者，尤其是技术领导者，认为他们必须拥有所有答案。
People have climbed the ladder in whatever realm they're in because they've been dependable, reliable, the smartest person in the room.
人们在任何领域都取得了进步，因为他们是可靠的、可靠的、房间里最聪明的人。
But when you're leading a quickly-scaling company, you quickly have less context than the people you're around.
但当你领导一家快速扩张的公司时，你的背景信息很快就会比周围的人少。
And the way you were operating before doesn't work because you don't have the ability to wrap your arms around every problem in a deep way.
你以前的操作方式行不通，因为你没有能力深入解决每个问题。
So, I've seen leaders at every phase from frontline managers up to running an 8,000-person company struggle with knowing when do I have to have the answer, and when I don't have the answer, what options do I have?
所以，我见过从一线经理到经营一家拥有 8,000 名员工的公司的各个阶段的领导者都在努力了解我何时必须得到答案，以及当我没有答案时，我有哪些选择？
Rachel Lockett: But great leaders know that when you try to advise and have the answer all the time, you're not actually equipping your team to go solve the hard problems.
雷切尔·洛克特：但是伟大的领导者知道，当你试图提供建议并始终得到答案时，你实际上并没有让你的团队去解决难题。
You're training your team to come to you with all of the hard problems.
您正在训练您的团队来为您解决所有难题。
And coaching is a different way.
教练是一种不同的方式。
It's an alternative path that unlocks brilliance in your team and is way more motivating for the people around you.
这是另一种途径，可以释放团队的才华，并为周围的人提供更大的激励。
So, coaching is actually a learnable skill, obviously, because there's tons of coaches around Silicon Valley, but you don't have to coach in the same way that an executive coaches.
所以，显然，教练实际上是一种可以学习的技能，因为硅谷有大量的教练，但你不必像高管教练那样进行教练。
You can shift your energy into curiosity when someone brings you a hard problem to solve, and create space to get curious, and help them solve their own problem.
当有人给你带来一个难以解决的问题时，你可以将你的能量转移到好奇心上，并创造空间来激发好奇心，并帮助他们解决自己的问题。
Rachel Lockett: So, obviously, sometimes advising is the right path.
雷切尔·洛克特：所以，显然，有时提供建议是正确的道路。
If there's an urgent issue, the person coming to you doesn't have the skill they need, that's a time to advise and help.
如果有紧急问题，来找您的人不具备他们所需的技能，那么就需要提供建议和帮助。
But leaders over-rotate, assuming the people that they've hired who are experts in their domain need them to solve the problem.
但领导者过度轮换，认为他们所雇用的人都是各自领域的专家，需要他们来解决问题。
So, I think it's useful for your listeners to actually know that coaching's an alternative, and I can help them learn some basic skills around this.
因此，我认为让听众真正了解辅导是一种替代方案是很有用的，我可以帮助他们学习一些与此相关的基本技能。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。
I'd love to learn those skills.
我很想学习这些技能。
What this makes me think about is there's this famous Harvard Business Review piece.
这让我想到了《哈佛商业评论》这篇著名的文章。
I don't know.
我不知道。
It's like 30 years ago maybe about the monkey on the back.
这就像30年前的事，也许是关于背上的猴子。
You know this piece, where it's-
你知道这件作品，它在哪里——
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, we'll link to it.
Lenny Rachitsky：好的，我们会链接到它。
It's this idea that as a leader, people always just coming to you trying to give you their monkey that's sitting on their back.
正是这个想法，作为一个领导者，人们总是来找你，试图把坐在他们背上的猴子给你。
And they're like, "Hey, this monkey is causing me all this problem.
他们就像，“嘿，这只猴子给我带来了所有这些问题。
I don't know what to do.
我不知道该怎么办。
But this monkey, here you go.
但是这只猴子，给你。
You take it, and feed it, and help it, figure out what it needs." And the role of a leader is to keep the monkey on the back of the person and help them figure out how to solve the problem, exactly what you're describing.
你拿着它，喂它，帮助它，弄清楚它需要什么。”领导者的角色就是让猴子站在人的背上，帮助他们找出解决问题的方法，正如你所描述的那样。
Rachel Lockett: Yeah, that's a great analogy.
雷切尔·洛克特：是的，这是一个很好的类比。
I love that.
我喜欢那个。
I think leaders make things up when they don't have answers sometimes.
我认为领导者有时候在没有答案的时候会编造一些事情。
A person comes to you with a problem and you just want to help.
有人带着问题来找你，而你只是想提供帮助。
But the best way to help is actually doing something that most leaders don't do well.
但最好的帮助方法实际上是做一些大多数领导者做得不好的事情。
It's attuning to what is the context?
它与上下文相协调吗？
What does this person need?
这个人需要什么？
What are they blocked on?
他们被封锁了什么？
And ask them with those questions so that they can solve their own problem.
并向他们提出这些问题，以便他们能够解决自己的问题。
Lenny Rachitsky: Let's talk about how to get better at this.
Lenny Rachitsky：我们来谈谈如何在这方面做得更好。
But first of all, when you said, "When is it actually smart to just tell them what to do?" You said it's when they don't have the skills to do it.
但首先，当你说“什么时候告诉他们该做什么才是真正明智的做法？”你说这是他们没有能力做到这一点的时候。
Is there any other kind of heuristics of like, okay, just tell them what to do in these cases?
是否还有其他类型的启发式方法，比如，好吧，只是告诉他们在这些情况下该怎么做？
Rachel Lockett: Yeah, it's an urgent issue and you actually have an answer that you want to drive.
Rachel Lockett：是的，这是一个紧迫的问题，你实际上已经有了一个想要推动的答案。
So, don't coach and make it a game.
所以，不要把教练当作一场比赛。
You want your person on your team to guess what's in your mind.
您希望团队中的成员能够猜测您的想法。
That's not a good time to coach.
现在可不是当教练的好时机。
You have something you absolutely want them to do.
你有一些你绝对希望他们做的事情。
You know the right answer.
你知道正确的答案。
You want them to be motivated to go do it.
你希望他们有动力去做这件事。
Advise them.
劝告他们。
Help them see the path.
帮助他们看清道路。
But most leaders over-index on that solution.
但大多数领导者过度重视该解决方案。
So, I want to share.
所以，我想分享一下。
Maybe Lenny, I can teach you two skills that I think are the basics of leader coaching-
也许莱尼，我可以教你两项我认为是领导者教练基础的技能——
Rachel Lockett: ...
雷切尔·洛克特：……
that you can use in your own life tonight with your wife-
今晚你可以在你自己的生活中和你的妻子一起使用-
Rachel Lockett: ...
雷切尔·洛克特：……
or anyone you operate with.
或与您一起工作的任何人。
Rachel Lockett: And hopefully, your listeners can use them too.
Rachel Lockett：希望你的听众也能使用它们。
Rachel Lockett: Okay.
雷切尔·洛克特：好的。
So, the first skill is active listening.
所以，第一个技能就是积极倾听。
And Lenny, you're probably a good listener because this is what you do for a living is you listen to the people who come on your podcast.
莱尼，你可能是一个很好的倾听者，因为你的谋生就是倾听播客上的人的声音。
But I don't know if you've seen Fight Club.
但我不知道你是否看过《搏击俱乐部》。
There's a quote, "Most people aren't listening.
有句话说：“大多数人都没有在听。
They're just waiting for their turn to talk."
他们只是在等待轮到他们说话。”
Rachel Lockett: This is rampant in tech.
Rachel Lockett：这在科技领域非常猖獗。
And great leaders flip that script and tune in.
伟大的领导者会翻转剧本并投入其中。
They're the kinds of leaders who walk into a room, and they can see the elephants.
他们是那种走进房间就能看到大象的领导者。
They can name them.
他们可以说出他们的名字。
They can ask the hard questions to get people collaborating.
他们可以提出棘手的问题来促使人们合作。
So, there's actually three levels to listening.
所以，倾听实际上分为三个层次。
So, the first level listening, level one is internal.
所以，第一级倾听，第一级是内在的。
Let's say you're talking to me about a problem.
假设你正在跟我谈论一个问题。
I'm thinking about the implications of that problem on me.
我正在思考这个问题对我的影响。
I'm completely distracted with my own inner dialogue.
我完全被自己内心的对话分散了注意力。
That's level one.
那是第一级。
Most people go through their world rushed and in level one.
大多数人的世界都是匆忙的、处于第一级的。
Level two listening is focused.
第二级听力是集中注意力的。
So, you're talking to me, and I can repeat back what you're saying.
所以，你在跟我说话，我可以重复你说的话。
So, I am listening to the words you're describing, and that's typically what happens in a good one-on-one.
所以，我正在听你所描述的话，这通常是在良好的一对一谈话中发生的情况。
We're problem solving together and focused on your words.
我们一起解决问题并专注于您的话。
Rachel Lockett: Level three listening is global listening.
Rachel Lockett：第三级倾听是全球倾听。
So, that's what I'm hearing beneath the words.
所以，这就是我在这句话下面听到的。
I'm hearing what you're communicating, not just what you're saying.
我听到的是您正在交流的内容，而不仅仅是您所说的内容。
I see your body language.
我看到你的肢体语言。
I notice your tone of voice.
我注意到你的语气。
I know the context around what you're talking about, and I can reflect back more insight about what's happening than you're aware of because I'm understanding everything you're communicating.
我知道你所谈论内容的背景，并且我可以反映比你意识到的更多关于正在发生的事情的见解，因为我理解你所传达的一切。
So, dropping into level three listening is what great leaders do when they're influencing, when they're selling, when they're pitching a vision, and definitely when they're coaching.
因此，伟大的领导者在发挥影响力、进行销售、提出愿景以及提供指导时，都会采取第三级倾听的方式。
So, do you want to try it?
那么，你想尝试一下吗？
Rachel Lockett: Okay.
雷切尔·洛克特：好的。
How about this?
这个怎么样？
I'll demonstrate some level three listening.
我将演示一些第三级听力。
I'm going to ask you a question.
我要问你一个问题。
Rachel Lockett: You told me earlier, you're a father.
雷切尔·洛克特：你早些时候告诉过我，你是一个父亲。
Lenny Rachitsky: Wow.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：哇。
What is it like to be a dad?
当爸爸是什么感觉？
It's amazing.
太棒了。
It's like the most amazing thing I've ever done in many ways.
从很多方面来说，这都是我做过的最令人惊奇的事情。
I love it so much.
我非常喜欢它。
It's also quite challenging at times dealing with setting boundaries and knowing when to just let him do the thing he's really excited about or just saying, "no," and just letting him cry for a while.
有时设定界限并知道何时让他做他真正兴奋的事情或只是说“不”并让他哭一会儿也非常具有挑战性。
That's something I've been dealing with recently, but it's like everything people tell you it is basically in every way except the joy is so much higher, so much higher than you hear from other people because people always talk about all the downsides, all the pain and challenges.
这是我最近一直在处理的事情，但这就像人们告诉你的一切，基本上是在各个方面，除了快乐要高得多，比你从其他人那里听到的要高得多，因为人们总是谈论所有的缺点、所有的痛苦和挑战。
Rachel Lockett: Yeah, and I see you when you talk about being a father, initially, I saw you really squirm in your chair.
雷切尔·洛克特：是的，当你谈论成为一名父亲时，我看到你，最初，我看到你在椅子上蠕动。
Well, this is a big question.
嗯，这是一个大问题。
And you looked up and down and kind of avoided my eye contact at first because my sense is you love being a dad, and it's so challenging.
你上下打量着我，一开始有点回避我的目光接触，因为我的感觉是你喜欢当爸爸，这太具有挑战性了。
It's so tiring.
真是太累了。
And I'm hearing both of that in your answer.
我在你的回答中听到了这两点。
The high joy and the discomfort in having to sleep train, and having to disappoint, and navigating challenging behavior.
必须进行睡眠训练、必须失望以及应对具有挑战性的行为所带来的高度快乐和不适。
Lenny Rachitsky: Nailed it.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：成功了。
That was very nice to hear.
很高兴听到这个消息。
Clearly, you listened to everything I said and that was a really good example of active listening.
显然，你听了我所说的一切，这是积极倾听的一个很好的例子。
Rachel Lockett: What does it feel like to be seen that way?
雷切尔·洛基特：被这样看待感觉如何？
Lenny Rachitsky: It feels really nice.
Lenny Rachitsky：感觉真的很好。
It feels really nice to be heard.
被听到的感觉真的很好。
And it's not just like you're repeating back my words.
这不仅仅是你在重复我的话。
It's here's what I got out of the level below what you're saying, and the gist, and the bigger picture.
这就是我从你所说的以下级别中得到的内容、要点和更大的图景。
Rachel Lockett: Yeah, there's some emotional connection when you listen actively, and that took less than a minute.
雷切尔·洛基特：是的，当你积极倾听时，就会产生一些情感上的联系，而这花了不到一分钟的时间。
So, what I want to invite listeners to understand is that active listening doesn't mean you're setting up an hour coaching session with every person on your team.
因此，我想让听众明白的是，积极倾听并不意味着你要为团队中的每个人安排一个小时的辅导课程。
No one has time for that.
没有人有时间这样做。
But even in the time you're already spending, just focusing on the other person in a way that is novel and really gives them your full attention so you can see their feelings under what they're saying goes a long way to motivating your team and helping them understand what's actually happening under the surface in this situation.
但即使在你已经花费的时间里，只要以一种新颖的方式关注对方，真正给予他们全部的注意力，这样你就可以看到他们在所说的话下的感受，这对于激励你的团队并帮助他们了解在这种情况下表面下实际发生的事情大有帮助。
Lenny Rachitsky: I think there's just so much power in different words, repeating back what they said.
Lenny Rachitsky：我认为不同的语言有很大的力量，重复他们所说的话。
That's almost implied in what you're describing.
你所描述的内容几乎暗示了这一点。
It sounds like...
听起来像是...
So, I don't know, like a trick they'll see through.
所以，我不知道，就像他们会识破的诡计一样。
But knowing that you're listening to me and you're going to show me active listening, it still feels really nice to just hear back what I said.
但知道你正在听我说话，并且你会向我展示积极的倾听，听到我说的话仍然感觉很好。
There's a lot of power in that and it's subtle.
其中蕴含着巨大的力量，而且是微妙的。
Rachel Lockett: Yeah.
雷切尔·洛克特：是的。
Great.
伟大的。
Yeah, there's an element of synthesizing what I'm hearing verbally.
是的，有一个综合我口头听到的内容的元素。
That's the focused listening part, and then, mirroring back the emotions that I'm noticing.
这是集中聆听的部分，然后反映我注意到的情绪。
Rachel Lockett: And even things that I'm guessing, and I can say, "Is that right?" And you can say, "No, actually, I'm not conflicted about the challenges of being a dad.
雷切尔·洛克特：甚至是我猜测的事情，我可以说，“是吗？”你可以说：“不，实际上，我对于成为一名父亲所面临的挑战并不感到矛盾。
I just am so joyful." And then, now, I understand where you're coming from and so do you.
我只是太高兴了。”然后，现在，我明白你来自哪里，你也一样。
Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
Okay, so this is a core skill of coaching is active listening.
好的，教练的核心技能就是积极倾听。
Rachel Lockett: Yes.
雷切尔·洛克特：是的。
So, that's listening.
所以，这就是倾听。
Second skill, powerful questions.
第二技能，有力的问题。
So, asking powerful questions means I'm curious about what's really going on, and there's not one right answer.
因此，提出强有力的问题意味着我对到底发生了什么感到好奇，而且没有一个正确的答案。
So, a powerful question helps you gain insight and it takes you to a new solution set you didn't have before.
因此，一个强有力的问题可以帮助您获得洞察力，并将您带到以前没有的新解决方案集。
But it's not me leading the witness.
但不是我在引导证人。
I'm not trying to guide you to a specific answer.
我并不是想引导您找到具体的答案。
That wouldn't be a powerful question.
这不是一个强有力的问题。
So, something that I like to equip leaders with is four kinds of questions that you can ask to unlock insight.
因此，我喜欢向领导者提出四种问题，你可以通过提出这些问题来解锁洞察力。
Rachel Lockett: So, the first kind is I use a GROW model.
Rachel Lockett：所以，第一种是我使用 GROW 模型。
So, the GROW model just is four different categories of kinds of powerful questions.
因此，GROW 模型只是四种不同类别的强有力的问题。
So, the G in grow is goal.
所以，成长中的G就是目标。
So, what does success look like?
那么，成功是什么样的呢？
What's the outcome that you want to have?
你想要得到什么结果？
Any question that's around defining the best case scenario.
任何与定义最佳案例场景相关的问题。
The R in the GROW model is about your current reality.
GROW 模型中的 R 与您当前的现实有关。
Where are you stuck?
你被困在哪里了？
What are your current challenges?
您目前面临的挑战是什么？
What have you tried?
你尝试了什么？
The O is about your options.
O 是关于你的选择。
So, let's expand the opportunities that you can understand of the choices you have in front of you.
因此，让我们扩大机会，让您能够了解摆在您面前的选择。
What are the various paths you could take?
您可以采取哪些不同的路径？
And the W in the GROW model is the way forward.
GROW 模型中的 W 是前进的方向。
What are you going to do next?
接下来你打算做什么？
So, this sounds simple, and it is simple if you take the time and space to listen carefully and ask any of these questions.
所以，这听起来很简单，而且如果你花时间和空间仔细聆听并提出这些问题，它也会很简单。
The people on your team will appreciate the space and time to unlock an option that they didn't think of before and walk away with a concrete next step.
您团队中的人员会很高兴有空间和时间来解锁他们以前没有想到的选项，并带着具体的下一步走开。
Lenny Rachitsky: So, just to reflect back what you're saying, so someone comes to you with a monkey on their back.
Lenny Rachitsky：所以，只是为了反映你所说的话，所以有人背着一只猴子来找你。
Here's a problem I'm trying to solve.
这是我试图解决的一个问题。
This percent of my team is just not doing something right or this feature isn't working, something like that.
我团队中的这部分人只是没有做正确的事情，或者这个功能不起作用，诸如此类。
So, first of all, it's listen, be very active in your listening.
所以，首先是倾听，要非常积极地倾听。
Reflect back what you're hearing, their emotions.
反思你所听到的，他们的情绪。
And then, ask them questions around what does success look like for this?
然后，问他们关于成功是什么样子的问题？
What is the goal?
目标是什么？
What is the goal?
目标是什么？
What does success look like for the thing you're trying to do here?
对于您在这里尝试做的事情来说，成功是什么样子的？
What does success look like?
成功是什么样的？
Two is just what's today's reality?
二是今天的现实是什么？
What's happening today?
今天发生什么事了？
Then, options.
然后，选项。
Here's options that you think exist.
以下是您认为存在的选项。
So, this is you asking them what are the options?
那么，这是你问他们有什么选择？
Rachel Lockett: Yeah, what are your paths forward?
雷切尔·洛克特：是的，你的前进道路是什么？
What could you do next?
接下来你可以做什么？
Lenny Rachitsky: What could you do next?
Lenny Rachitsky：接下来你能做什么？
And then, this is organic.
然后，这是有机的。
So, it's not just like one, two, three, four, I imagine.
所以，我想这不仅仅是一、二、三、四。
Lenny Rachitsky: But the final step is just, okay, what's the way forward?
Lenny Rachitsky：但最后一步是，好吧，前进的方向是什么？
What do you want to do?
你想让我做什么？
Rachel Lockett: That's exactly right.
雷切尔·洛克特：完全正确。
And you don't have to do it in this order.
而且您不必按照此顺序进行操作。
These are just four kinds of questions.
这只是四种问题。
Rachel Lockett: So, you might come and someone's super clear about their outcome.
雷切尔·洛基特：所以，你可能会来，有人非常清楚他们的结果。
You know that.
你知道的。
You don't need to spend any time asking them questions about that.
您不需要花任何时间向他们询问相关问题。
Maybe you just want to really dig in on where are they stuck?
也许您只是想真正深入了解他们被困在哪里？
And once they start talking about their reality and where they're stuck, then they realize, oh, I'm stuck because my cross-functional partner is blocking me, and I don't have any relationship with them.
一旦他们开始谈论他们的现实以及他们陷入困境的地方，他们就会意识到，哦，我陷入困境是因为我的跨职能合作伙伴阻碍了我，而我与他们没有任何关系。
I need to go meet with them actually and just have a breakthrough conversation, tell them where I'm stuck.
我需要去见见他们，进行一次突破性的谈话，告诉他们我遇到的困难。
So, sometimes talking this out loud, just creating that space for them is going to help them tremendously.
因此，有时大声说出这一点，为他们创造空间就会对他们有很大帮助。
Lenny Rachitsky: And there's kind of an implication here that the person often knows the answer or can come to the answer, and they just need a little bit of nudge to get there.
Lenny Rachitsky：这里有一种暗示，人们通常知道答案或能够找到答案，他们只需要一点点推动就可以到达答案。
Rachel Lockett: Yeah, this is definitely you want to coach when you think the person you're talking to has the right context and can solve their own problem.
雷切尔·洛克特：是的，当你认为与你交谈的人有正确的背景并且可以解决他们自己的问题时，这绝对是你想要指导的。
That's a premise of coaching.
这是教练的前提。
You wouldn't coach if someone needs your guidance and comes to you and says, "Hey, I'm trying to take my company public.
如果有人需要你的指导并来找你说：“嘿，我正在努力让我的公司上市，你就不会提供指导。
You took your company public.
你把你的公司上市了。
Can you tell me exactly the steps you took to get there?" Not a good time to coach.
你能告诉我你到底采取了哪些步骤才到达那里吗？”不是当教练的好时机。
Lenny Rachitsky: This begs the question, what if they just come to a terrible conclusion and you're just like...
Lenny Rachitsky：这就引出了一个问题，如果他们得出一个可怕的结论而你就像......
Advice on when to actually just like, "What about this instead?"
关于何时真正喜欢“这个怎么样？”的建议
Rachel Lockett: Yeah, okay.
雷切尔·洛克特：是的，好的。
I think that's great.
我认为那太好了。
So, if you have a really strong negative reaction to what they're sharing, of course it doesn't behoove anyone to hide that.
因此，如果你对他们分享的内容有非常强烈的负面反应，当然任何人都没有必要隐瞒这一点。
I think you get curious.
我想你会感到好奇。
"Hey, help me understand how you came to that conclusion because here's my reaction to that." So, you're honest, but you're also curious.
“嘿，帮助我理解你是如何得出这个结论的，因为这是我对此的反应。”所以，你很诚实，但你也很好奇。
So, coaching in a manager or a leader context is not the same as in an executive coaching conversation.
因此，经理或领导者中的辅导与高管辅导对话中的辅导不同。
You're managing this person.
你正在管理这个人。
You're responsible for their outcomes.
你要对他们的结果负责。
You're not setting up an hour-long coaching session, you're just using coaching as an additional tool in your toolkit from advising.
您并不是要安排一个小时的辅导课程，您只是将辅导用作您的建议工具箱中的附加工具。
And you're creating more space, maybe 15% more space in your one-on-ones, in your meetings for open-ended questions.
而且您可以在一对一会议中为开放式问题创造更多空间，也许多出 15% 的空间。
Lenny Rachitsky: I love this phrase, help me understand.
Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢这句话，帮助我理解。
One of my managers used to be really good at this, just like...
我的一位经理曾经非常擅长这件事，就像......
You could tell, he's like, "Help me understand this part of your thinking."
你可以看出，他就像是，“帮我理解你的这部分想法。”
Rachel Lockett: Yeah.
雷切尔·洛克特：是的。
And the other thing that does when you're curious and you don't just shut down someone's idea, is you're helping them think.
当你感到好奇并且不只是否定某人的想法时，你会做的另一件事是帮助他们思考。
You're not helping them realize they're going to screw it up unless they come to you for advice.
除非他们向你寻求建议，否则你不会帮助他们意识到他们会把事情搞砸。
You're helping equip them with the right questions to ask and the right skepticism to have.
你正在帮助他们提出正确的问题和正确的怀疑态度。
And so, it's always useful to be in conversation when someone who reports to you has a different worldview than you do.
因此，当你的下属与你有着不同的世界观时，进行对话总是很有用的。
There's some reason they came up with this great idea that you think is a terrible idea.
他们想出这个好主意是有原因的，而你却认为这是一个糟糕的主意。
And actually, that's where the learning happens.
事实上，这就是学习发生的地方。
Lenny Rachitsky: And you may actually be wrong and you may realize, okay, they actually have the better solution.
Lenny Rachitsky：你可能实际上是错的，你可能会意识到，好吧，他们实际上有更好的解决方案。
I get it now.
我现在明白了。
Rachel Lockett: Yeah.
雷切尔·洛克特：是的。
This actually happens to me all the time in talent conversations.
事实上，在人才对话中，这种情况经常发生在我身上。
Because I have a background in being an HR business partner, and I'm working with CEOs and they're thinking about building their leadership team.
因为我有人力资源业务合作伙伴的背景，而且我正在与首席执行官合作，他们正在考虑建立他们的领导团队。
And I want everyone to have a very rigorous stance on their talent because if you have an A plus squad, you're going to do great things in the world.
我希望每个人都对自己的才能有非常严格的态度，因为如果你有一支 A+ 球队，你就会在世界上做出伟大的事情。
And sometimes, they come up with an idea to performance manage someone who's clearly not working in the role, but think, oh, maybe I'll wait six months, and then, we'll have a conversation.
有时，他们会提出一个想法，对显然不适合该职位的人进行绩效管理，但会想，哦，也许我会等六个月，然后我们会进行对话。
I have a strong point of view.
我有一个强烈的观点。
I'm not going to let that slide, but I'm going to say, "Help me understand why that is a good idea," and I'm going to press on that.
我不会让这一点溜走，但我会说，“帮助我理解为什么这是一个好主意”，我会继续努力。
And if they don't come to an idea that I'm aligned with, I'm going to share openly my perspective while still empowering them to solve their own problem.
如果他们不同意我的想法，我将公开分享我的观点，同时仍然授权他们解决自己的问题。
Lenny Rachitsky: To close the loop on this piece of advice, is there an example you could share to make this super concrete for folks?
Lenny Rachitsky：为了结束这条建议，您是否可以分享一个例子来让人们了解这一点？
Rachel Lockett: Well, I'm going to give you an example of a client, I'm going to call him Jeff, who runs an AI company.
雷切尔·洛克特：好吧，我给你举一个客户的例子，我称他为杰夫，他经营着一家人工智能公司。
And he was essentially playing the role of the head of product also.
他本质上还扮演着产品负责人的角色。
And he had a growing number of engineers and designers, and his customer base was growing rapidly.
他拥有越来越多的工程师和设计师，他的客户群也在迅速增长。
And he started to feel completely overwhelmed.
他开始感到完全不知所措。
So, he came to me and we started coaching together.
所以，他来找我，我们开始一起训练。
And soon, he realized that he was the blocker on every decision, every business decision, every product decision.
很快，他意识到自己是每一个决定、每一个业务决策、每一个产品决策的阻碍者。
And he was resenting it.
他对此感到不满。
He wanted his team to take more ownership.
他希望他的团队拥有更多的所有权。
But with some coaching, he realized he was training his team to come to him with every decision because he had always operated that way.
但经过一些指导，他意识到他正在训练他的团队在每一个决定上都来找他，因为他一直都是这样运作的。
So, he decided to create squads and have small pods of engineers, product leaders, and designers focus on subsets of the team.
因此，他决定创建一个小队，并让一小群工程师、产品负责人和设计师专注于团队的子集。
Very normal as you have a small startup scaling.
很正常，因为你的启动规模很小。
But he didn't have an engineering manager and a product leader for every one of them.
但他并没有为每个人配备一名工程经理和产品负责人。
Rachel Lockett: So, this was a little bit earlier than he was equipped for because he did it out of necessity.
雷切尔·洛克特：所以，这比他准备的要早一些，因为他这样做是出于必要。
And he also realized he needed to create some behavior change for the way he was interacting with that tech lead on each project so that they would take more ownership.
他还意识到，他需要改变与每个项目的技术负责人互动的方式，以便他们拥有更多的所有权。
So, we really invested in this idea of I'm going to start to set the system up so we have a product review every two weeks, they each have clear KPIs they're driving to that we co-design, and for this next quarter, I'm shifting from the role of deciding on everything to coaching.
因此，我们确实对这个想法进行了投资，我将开始建立系统，以便我们每两周进行一次产品审查，他们每个人都有明确的关键绩效指标，我们共同设计，在下个季度，我将从决定一切的角色转变为指导。
I'm going to really ask good questions in our check-ins.
我真的会在签到时问一些很好的问题。
I'm going to align to the KPIs, ask how things are going, ask where they're stuck.
我将与关键绩效指标保持一致，询问事情进展如何，询问他们陷入困境的地方。
And I just had a session with him last week.
上周我刚刚和他进行了一次会面。
It's amazing to see him because he's so much more energized.
看到他真是太棒了，因为他变得更有活力了。
He said, "The squads are moving so much faster.
他说：“小队的行动速度快得多。
The teams feel more empowered and motivated." And he has time to pick his head up and plan for 2026...
团队感觉更有力量和动力。”他有时间抬起头来计划 2026 年……
Rachel Lockett: And he has time to pick his head up and plan for 2026, and spend his time and his gifts.
Rachel Lockett：他有时间认真思考并计划 2026 年，并花费他的时间和天赋。
Which are product, vision and strategy.
分别是产品、愿景和战略。
So that's more of a global example of what results from leaders shifting from the mode of solving every problem to coaching.
因此，这更多地是领导者从解决每个问题的模式转向指导的结果的全球例子。
Lenny Rachitsky: That's such a great example of just the power of this, this makes your life so much better.
Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个很好的例子，说明了它的力量，它让你的生活变得更加美好。
Because other people can start picking up the slack and not come to you for everything.
因为其他人可能会开始收拾残局，而不是事事都来找你。
And it's like, listen better, ask a few powerful questions and so much improves, so much changes.
就像，更好地倾听，提出一些有力的问题，然后就得到了很大的改进，发生了很大的变化。
Lenny Rachitsky: Everyone around you gets better.
Lenny Rachitsky：你周围的每个人都会变得更好。
Rachel Lockett: So I want you to tell me a challenge.
Rachel Lockett：所以我想让你告诉我一个挑战。
It could be a personal challenge, a professional challenge.
这可能是个人挑战，也可能是职业挑战。
Just bottom line, something that you're struggling with.
只是底线，你正在努力解决的事情。
Lenny Rachitsky: Whoa.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：哇哦。
The main thing I struggle with these days is just endless work.
这些天我最烦恼的就是无休止的工作。
I feel like this newsletter, I started this newsletter six, seven years ago at this point, and originally it was like, I'm just going to build this chill newsletter, do this on the side.
我感觉就像这份时事通讯，我在六七年前的这个时候开始写这份时事通讯，最初的感觉是，我只是要制作这份冷静的时事通讯，顺便做一下。
Just kind of chill out for a while.
稍微放松一下。
And now it's just like, it just grows.
现在它就像，它就这样成长了。
I couldn't help but make it more awesome and bigger and have this podcast now and other stuff I got going on.
我忍不住让它变得更棒、更大，现在有了这个播客和我正在进行的其他事情。
So it's always this.
所以总是这样。
Lenny Rachitsky: So I'm in a world now where it's just this ...
Lenny Rachitsky：所以我现在所处的世界就是这样......
the way I think about it is the Indiana Jones boulder is constantly in my back rearview mirror just coming at me.
我的想法是印第安纳琼斯巨石不断地在我的后视镜中朝我而来。
Because I need to get a newsletter post out, get podcast episodes out, do all the things associated with that.
因为我需要发布时事通讯，发布播客剧集，做所有与之相关的事情。
I'm also just in the middle of ...
我也正处于中间...
I have this large Slack community at Twitter and LinkedIn, so I'm just constantly being barraged with small little asks and things and all these little things that never ...
我在 Twitter 和 LinkedIn 上有一个庞大的 Slack 社区，所以我不断地收到一些小问题和事情以及所有这些从来没有的小事情......
it's hard to just ignore and say no to.
很难忽视并拒绝。
So what I struggle with just endless work.
所以我与无休止的工作作斗争。
I joke that be careful working for yourself if your boss is a workaholic.
我开玩笑说，如果你的老板是个工作狂，那么为自己工作要小心。
Rachel Lockett: I totally relate to that.
雷切尔·洛克特：我完全同意这一点。
Okay, so I'm hearing noise, barrage of needs and just constant requests of you online, in your work life.
好吧，我在网上和工作生活中听到了噪音、接二连三的需求和不断的请求。
There's always something that you need to be doing.
总有一些事情是你需要做的。
And you designed it that way yourself.
你自己就是这样设计的。
So you're kind of aware of, I had this one intention of a path to freedom, insight.
所以你有点意识到，我有一个通往自由、洞察力之路的意图。
I imagine the newsletter was a fun passion project.
我认为这份时事通讯是一个有趣的激情项目。
And you couldn't help but make it this all-consuming full-time job.
你情不自禁地把它变成了一项耗费全部精力的全职工作。
Lenny Rachitsky: That's right.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：没错。
Let me just add, it's like in so many ways the most awesome thing I could ever imagine doing also and extremely fulfilling.
让我补充一下，从很多方面来说，这都是我能想象到的最棒的事情，而且非常有成就感。
And I couldn't think of anything better I'd rather be doing.
我想不出还有什么更好的事情是我愿意做的。
Lenny Rachitsky: So I think that's an important element.
Lenny Rachitsky：所以我认为这是一个重要的因素。
Lenny Rachitsky: It's this Indiana Jones boulder constantly chasing me.
Lenny Rachitsky：正是这块印第安纳琼斯巨石不断地追着我。
Rachel Lockett: Yeah, I can feel the gratitude and the resonance with what you get to do every day.
雷切尔·洛克特：是的，我能感受到你每天所做的事情的感激之情和共鸣。
And yet I hear you questioning, why does it have to feel like I'm fighting for my life while I'm doing this thing I love?
然而我听到你在问，为什么当我在做我喜欢的事情时，我必须感觉自己在为自己的生命而战？
Lenny Rachitsky: That's one way to put it, yeah.
Lenny Rachitsky：是的，这是一种说法。
This boulder is squishing me.
这块巨石正在压我。
Rachel Lockett: I mean, the Indiana Jones boulder is coming for you.
雷切尔·洛克特：我的意思是，印第安纳·琼斯巨石正在为你而来。
Rachel Lockett: That's a fight or flight instinct we all have.
雷切尔·洛克特：这是我们都有的战斗或逃跑本能。
Rachel Lockett: Okay, so thank you for being vulnerable enough to share that with your listeners and with me.
雷切尔·洛克特：好的，谢谢你愿意与你的听众和我分享这一点。
I want to ask you, what would dream state look like?
我想问你，梦境是什么样的？
So let's say in six months you're still running this beautiful business that you've created.
假设六个月后您仍在经营您创建的这家美丽的企业。
And you feel differently.
而你的感觉不同。
What is happening?
怎么了？
Lenny Rachitsky: What I imagine is the same thing mostly, just much more free time.
Lenny Rachitsky：我想象的大部分都是一样的，只是有更多的空闲时间。
So more time to experiment and play with other things.
所以有更多的时间去尝试和玩其他东西。
And at the same time, the newsletter continues to be awesome and high quality, the podcast continues to be awesome and high quality.
与此同时，时事通讯仍然是精彩和高质量的，播客仍然是精彩和高质量的。
So it's continuing to put out the same high quality stuff, just more free time, less ...
所以它继续推出同样高质量的东西，只是更多的空闲时间，更少......
the boulders may be smaller.
巨石可能更小。
Rachel Lockett: Yeah, okay.
雷切尔·洛克特：是的，好的。
So what does free time enable for you?
那么空闲时间可以给你带来什么好处呢？
When you think about ...
当你想到...
I hear your deep commitment to quality products and quality output.
我听到您对优质产品和优质产出的坚定承诺。
But this longing to feel a little bit more playful or flexible with those parts that are essential to you.
但这种渴望让那些对你来说至关重要的部分变得更有趣或更灵活。
Lenny Rachitsky: Very practically, it's time to play around with AI tools.
Lenny Rachitsky：实际上，是时候尝试一下人工智能工具了。
Just explore and just kind of tinker.
只是探索和修补而已。
Versus, okay, all the time I have, I need to focus on the newsletter, make it better for next week.
相反，好吧，我所有的时间都需要专注于时事通讯，让它在下周变得更好。
Oh, it's coming out, here's things I got to do.
哦，它出来了，这是我要做的事情。
Oh, this podcast, got to prep for that, got to edit this thing.
哦，这个播客，必须为此做好准备，必须编辑这个东西。
So it's just time to tinker and explore and just like that kind of stuff.
所以现在是修补和探索之类的时候了。
Rachel Lockett: That makes sense.
雷切尔·洛克特：这是有道理的。
And what's important about exploring and tinkering to you?
探索和修补对你来说最重要的是什么？
Lenny Rachitsky: Because in the work I do, I need to stay ahead on where things are going.
Lenny Rachitsky：因为在我所做的工作中，我需要保持领先地位。
I can't just sit around and pontificate from a cloud.
我不能只是坐在那里，在云中独断专行。
I need to really understand how things work, what's working, what's not, what's real, what's not.
我需要真正了解事物是如何运作的，什么是有效的，什么是无效的，什么是真实的，什么不是。
So being on the ground as much as I can with what's actually going on versus just putting out content.
因此，我要尽可能地了解实际发生的事情，而不是仅仅发布内容。
Rachel Lockett: That makes sense.
雷切尔·洛克特：这是有道理的。
Your voice is moving really fast.
你的声音移动得真快。
I kind of hear you feeling behind, even in the way you're describing what you're doing.
我听到你有一种落后的感觉，甚至从你描述自己正在做的事情的方式来看也是如此。
Rachel Lockett: What's interesting to me is when you're talking about exploring and tinkering, when you first said it, you said it in kind of a spacious way.
Rachel Lockett：对我来说有趣的是，当你谈论探索和修补时，当你第一次这么说时，你是以一种宽敞的方式说的。
It's fun to explore and tinker.
探索和修补很有趣。
You're deeply naturally curious.
你天生就有强烈的好奇心。
You find new insights.
你会发现新的见解。
But then I also heard you say, "And it's a way to stay ahead, I have to do it in order to feel like I'm informed." So what do you make of that difference?
但后来我也听到你说，“这是保持领先的一种方式，我必须这样做才能感觉自己了解情况。”那么你对这种差异有什么看法呢？
Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Those are two sides of the coin.
这是硬币的两面。
There's another element of ...
还有另一个元素...
I guess let me answer that question.
我想让我来回答这个问题。
I think those are both true, I don't know.
我认为这些都是真的，我不知道。
The reason I got into this is because it was so fun and so interesting.
我参与其中的原因是因为它非常有趣。
Just like, here's what's happening, here's what the future-
就像，这就是正在发生的事情，这就是未来——
Lenny Rachitsky: Here's advice, here's ways to improve in the work that you do.
Lenny Rachitsky：这是建议，这是改进你所做工作的方法。
So I still love it.
所以我还是很喜欢它。
It's just I have less time to do that part and more it's just the machine of the treadmill of content, content, content.
只是我做这部分的时间更少，更多的是内容、内容、内容的跑步机。
There's also just spending more ...
还有就是花更多的钱...
I didn't even mention this.
我什至没有提到这一点。
But just spending more time with my son and my wife, that would be really great just to have more freedom to go do stuff.
但只要花更多的时间陪伴我的儿子和妻子，就能有更多的自由去做事情，那就太好了。
Which we have a lot of that, but more is great.
我们有很多这样的东西，但越多越好。
Rachel Lockett: That makes sense.
雷切尔·洛克特：这是有道理的。
Okay, so the goal that I hear is not so dramatically different from today.
好的，所以我听到的目标与今天并没有太大不同。
It's that you hold on to this high quality output, but you have space for exploring and tinkering.
就是你保留了这种高质量的输出，但你有探索和修补的空间。
And for spending quality time with the people you love most.
并与您最爱的人共度美好时光。
Lenny Rachitsky: Yes.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。
One way I'm thinking about as you reflect that back is 25% more free time while everything else continues to be awesome.
当你反映这一情况时，我想到的一种方法是，空闲时间增加了 25%，而其他一切仍然很棒。
And the challenge I run into is I sometimes get that extra time and then I fill it with more projects and opportunities.
我遇到的挑战是，有时我会得到额外的时间，然后用更多的项目和机会来填补它。
That's the problem right there.
这就是问题所在。
Rachel Lockett: Yeah, there's that inertia of moving fast, taking advantage of the moment that's coming.
雷切尔·洛克特：是的，有一种快速行动的惯性，利用即将到来的时刻。
Rachel Lockett: So that's a perfect shift into, what are your current ways of operating that get in the way of having that 25% of free time?
Rachel Lockett：所以这是一个完美的转变，你目前的运营方式是什么阻碍了你拥有那 25% 的空闲时间？
Lenny Rachitsky: It's just agreeing to more things.
Lenny Rachitsky：只是同意更多的事情。
Just like, oh look, I'm kind of free right now.
就像，哦，看，我现在有点自由。
Oh, okay, let's do this talk here.
哦，好吧，我们就先讲到这里吧。
Let's agree to this thing here.
让我们在这里同意这件事。
So it's just once I feel freedom, I'm like, "Okay, I could do that other thing." And so I commit to more stuff.
所以只有当我感到自由时，我才会想，“好吧，我可以做其他事情。”所以我致力于更多的事情。
Rachel Lockett: Yeah.
雷切尔·洛克特：是的。
And how is that commitment to saying yes to things that come at you serving you?
对发生在你身上的事情说“是”的承诺是如何为你服务的？
Rachel Lockett: Well, it's serving you in some ways.
Rachel Lockett：嗯，它在某些方面为你服务。
You're doing it for a reason.
你这样做是有原因的。
Rachel Lockett: What benefit does it have to you?
Rachel Lockett：这对你有什么好处？
Lenny Rachitsky: Well, it depends on the thing.
Lenny Rachitsky：嗯，这取决于具体情况。
I actually have a rule of never doing a talk or going on another podcast or going to events really, because I find I never really get much out of it, and it distracts me from the stuff I could be doing.
事实上，我有一条规则，就是从不做演讲、参加其他播客或真正参加活动，因为我发现我从来没有真正从中得到太多，而且它分散了我对我可以做的事情的注意力。
So I've set up a lot of policies of just turning down things that don't serve me.
所以我制定了很多政策来拒绝那些对我没有好处的事情。
But I still crumble and say yes to stuff.
但我还是崩溃了，对一些事情说“是”。
Lenny Rachitsky: So to your point, there's value here and there when I take on more work.
Lenny Rachitsky：所以就你的观点而言，当我承担更多工作时，到处都有价值。
And then I end up overworked again.
然后我又再次过度劳累。
Rachel Lockett: Yeah, I'm hearing there's just a pattern, it's like a reflexive pattern of even though you set a rule for yourself to say no to certain things and you seem proud of that boundary.
雷切尔·洛基特：是的，我听说这只是一种模式，就像一种反射模式，即使你为自己设定了一个规则，对某些事情说不，而且你似乎为这个界限感到自豪。
You naturally break it or you fall into filling it with other things.
你自然会破坏它，或者你会用其他东西填充它。
Rachel Lockett: Okay.
雷切尔·洛克特：好的。
So you're stuck in this kind of addiction to doing more and signing up for more, which is so normal in our world, and probably most listeners can relate to that.
所以你陷入了这种做更多事、注册更多东西的沉迷之中，这在我们的世界里是很正常的，而且可能大多数听众都能体会到这一点。
That's kind of the soup we swim in.
这就是我们游泳时喝的汤。
So we have to be conscious of what inputs we have around us.
因此，我们必须意识到我们周围有哪些输入。
Rachel Lockett: So let's explore your various options that you have in front of you.
Rachel Lockett：那么让我们探讨一下摆在您面前的各种选择。
One that you mentioned already you tried was to make a list of the things you don't want to be doing anymore, like things you want to say no to.
您已经提到过您尝试过的一个方法是列出您不想再做的事情，例如您想拒绝的事情。
And really committing to that and sticking to that.
并且真正致力于并坚持这一点。
What are the other kinds of things you could do to help you prioritize and create that sacred 25% of extra time for yourself?
您还可以做哪些其他事情来帮助您确定优先顺序并为自己创造神圣的 25% 额外时间？
Lenny Rachitsky: Something I've already done, which hasn't kicked in fully yet, but that I'm really excited about is I reduce the cadence of my newsletter and podcast.
Lenny Rachitsky：我已经做了一些事情，虽然还没有完全发挥作用，但令我真正兴奋的是我降低了时事通讯和播客的节奏。
Which in theory, should be a massive change.
从理论上讲，这应该是一个巨大的变化。
But the cadence of the podcast hasn't shifted down yet, it'll happen next year.
但播客的节奏还没有降低，明年就会发生。
The newsletter cadences, I basically changed my promise to readers instead of, you'll receive a newsletter every week.
时事通讯的节奏，我基本上改变了对读者的承诺，而不是，你每周都会收到一份时事通讯。
Now it's, two to four times a month depending on what's going on.
现在是每月两到四次，具体取决于发生的情况。
Lenny Rachitsky: Which felt huge.
Lenny Rachitsky：感觉很大。
The problem is I still like every week I'm like, "Oh, I want to write about this thing.
问题是我仍然喜欢每周都会说，“哦，我想写一下这件事。
Oh, every week there's nothing's happening, I got to put this out." So I'm almost not taking advantage of that opportunity.
哦，每周都没有什么事情发生，我必须把这件事说出来。”所以我几乎没有利用这个机会。
So something I could do is actually not publish every week.
所以我能做的实际上不是每周发布。
Lenny Rachitsky: Another is just bring on some more help.
Lenny Rachitsky：另一个就是提供更多帮助。
Which is difficult because I've got a lot of good help and there's only so many things other people can do for me that isn't writing an awesome newsletter and recording conversations like this.
这很困难，因为我得到了很多好的帮助，而其他人能为我做的事情就只有这么多，除了写一篇很棒的时事通讯和记录这样的对话之外。
But I'm always thinking about, and I should think deeper about where can people take more load off my plate?
但我一直在思考，我应该更深入地思考人们可以在哪里减轻我的负担？
Rachel Lockett: Yeah, I love that insight.
雷切尔·洛克特：是的，我喜欢这种洞察力。
What I'm hearing is do less in certain areas and think about your team and really expanding the capacity of your team.
我听到的是在某些领域少做一些事情，并考虑你的团队并真正扩大你的团队的能力。
And be rigorous about the things you can hand off, that you may have limiting beliefs around the things you need to do versus the people on your team.
对你可以交接的事情要严格，因为你可能对你需要做的事情与团队中的人有限制性的信念。
Lenny Rachitsky: I might, I might.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：我可能，我可能。
And then your point I loved, which is just improve my policies of what I say no to that don't serve me.
然后我喜欢你的观点，那就是改进我的政策，对那些对我不利的事情说不。
Rachel Lockett: Yeah.
雷切尔·洛克特：是的。
What are the things you could be saying yes to if you said no to more things?
如果你对更多事情说“不”，哪些事情你可以说“是”？
Lenny Rachitsky: Just playing around with stuff.
Lenny Rachitsky：只是玩玩而已。
Just space to explore and tinker, and just sit around and think.
只是探索和修补的空间，只是坐下来思考。
Versus just go, go, go, go, go.
与只是走，走，走，走，走。
Rachel Lockett: Yeah.
雷切尔·洛克特：是的。
I just see you feel so light and excited in that.
我只是看到你对此感到如此轻松和兴奋。
Like you almost are giddy when you think about that spaciousness.
当你想到那宽敞的空间时，你几乎会感到头晕。
Rachel Lockett: And I just want to name reflect back to you how special that is and how much more creative you could be in your work when you have that space and time.
雷切尔·洛基特（Rachel Lockett）：我只是想让你知道，当你有这样的空间和时间时，这有多么特别，你可以在你的工作中发挥出多大的创造力。
Rachel Lockett: And your bucket's full with care.
雷切尔·洛克特：你的桶里装满了小心。
Rachel Lockett: Yeah.
雷切尔·洛克特：是的。
So what's one thing you could do in the next two weeks that would help you get closer to the kind of spaciousness you want to create?
那么，在接下来的两周内，你可以做哪一件事来帮助你更接近你想要创造的宽敞空间呢？
Lenny Rachitsky: I love that ...
莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢……
as we go through this, I'm thinking about this growth framework and I love how you're executing it.
当我们经历这个过程时，我正在思考这个增长框架，我喜欢你执行它的方式。
Like I see it in action, it's so good.
就像我看到的那样，效果非常好。
Rachel Lockett: Yeah, I'm trying to do very simple coaching right now, just -
雷切尔·洛克特：是的，我现在正在尝试做非常简单的指导，只是 -
Rachel Lockett: ...
雷切尔·洛克特：……
that it's really easy to follow for your listener.
对于你的听众来说，这真的很容易听懂。
Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, yeah.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的，是的。
This is great.
这太棒了。
Okay, so what's the one thing I could do in the next couple of weeks to help you move forward on this?
好的，那么在接下来的几周内我可以做的一件事是什么来帮助您在这方面取得进展？
I think one is at least skip a week or two of the newsletter and just actually stick to that plan.
我认为至少要跳过一两周的时事通讯，而实际上坚持该计划。
But it's tough because the next two weeks I got already planned.
但这很难，因为接下来的两周我已经计划好了。
I got to write a gift guide, that's my ...
我必须写一份礼物指南，那是我的......
okay, so the week after, I'll take a break.
好吧，下周我就休息一下。
Okay, cool.
好吧，酷。
So two weeks from the recording this I won't publish a newsletter.
因此，在录制后的两周内，我不会发布时事通讯。
And then I'm going to revisit my policies on what I say yes and no to.
然后我将重新审视我的政策，确定哪些是我同意的，哪些是反对的。
Rachel Lockett: I love that.
雷切尔·洛克特：我喜欢这个。
Think about everything you're saying yes to and what are things you want to say yes to that you could treat it with.
想想你要说“是”的一切，以及哪些是你想要说“是”并且可以用来对待它的事情。
So really consider that it's a trade off every time you say yes to something.
因此，请认真考虑一下，每次您对某件事说“是”时，这都是一种权衡。
The more resonant you are with the end state and what's possible for you, the easier it is to be disciplined in the near term.
你对最终状态和你的可能性越有共鸣，短期内就越容易受到约束。
Lenny Rachitsky: I love just that element of here's what you'll get out of this.
Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢这个元素，这就是你将从中得到的东西。
It's not just no, no, no, no. It's like yes to this other thing you really, really want to do.
这不仅仅是不，不，不，不。这就像对你真正非常想做的另一件事说“是”。
Rachel Lockett: Yeah.
雷切尔·洛克特：是的。
Exactly.
确切地。
Yes, say it like a resonant full body yes to the things that are in .
是的，就像对其中的事物发出共鸣的全身一样说“是”。
Rachel Lockett: Yeah, hell yes.
雷切尔·洛克特：是的，是的。
With an exclamation, exactly.
一声感叹，正是如此。
Rachel Lockett: Well thank you, Lenny, for letting me just demonstrate what powerful questions are.
雷切尔·洛克特：谢谢你，莱尼，让我展示什么是强有力的问题。
And the reason I wanted to do that with you is you brought an example that's actually pretty big.
我想和你一起做这件事的原因是你带来了一个实际上相当大的例子。
It's an emotional thing, it's a cultural norm, it's a way of being that we've all learned to be through growing up and operating in tech, especially.
这是一种情感，一种文化规范，是我们在成长和从事科技行业过程中学会的一种存在方式。
So even with that kind of topic, using a simple grow model can be useful.
因此，即使对于此类主题，使用简单的增长模型也是有用的。
But people are coming at your listeners with topics that are very complicated, technical, urgent.
但人们向你的听众提出的话题非常复杂、技术性、紧迫性。
But the same kinds of questions unlock new opportunity when it's about how to build technical infrastructure or how to influence the executive team or how to ship the go-to-market strategy.
但当涉及如何构建技术基础设施、如何影响执行团队或如何实施进入市场策略时，同样类型的问题会带来新的机遇。
So I just want a name that's very transferable.
所以我只想要一个容易转移的名字。
Lenny Rachitsky: I love that I got great advice in this conversation already.
Lenny Rachitsky：我很高兴在这次谈话中我已经得到了很好的建议。
Lenny Rachitsky: What a great ROI for me at least.
Lenny Rachitsky：至少对我来说这是一个巨大的投资回报率。
Rachel Lockett: What did it feel like to be coached on your own podcast?
Rachel Lockett：在自己的播客上接受指导感觉如何？
Lenny Rachitsky: It was unusual.
Lenny Rachitsky：这很不寻常。
I'm just like, wait, I got to get back to asking you questions.
我只是想，等等，我得回去问你问题了。
That's where our minds are right now.
这就是我们现在的想法。
Rachel Lockett: Okay, all right, all right.
雷切尔·洛克特：好吧，好吧，好吧。
We can flip it, we can flip it.
我们可以翻转它，我们可以翻转它。
I do want to name that typically when you're coached versus told what to do, you're more bought in.
我确实想说，通常当你接受指导而不是被告知要做什么时，你会更容易接受。
So if I told you, Lenny, I've heard all kinds of leaders come to me talking about being too busy.
所以，如果我告诉你，莱尼，我听到各种各样的领导来找我谈论太忙了。
Here's what you should do.
这是你应该做的。
Write a list of all the things you're doing, write the things you're going to delegate, cut out 25% of the things on your calendar.
写下你正在做的所有事情的清单，写下你要委派的事情，删除日历上 25% 的事情。
I could have given you a laundry list of things that I thought you should do without much context.
我本可以在没有太多背景的情况下给你一份我认为你应该做的事情的清单。
But you're the expert on your own context and actually what resonates.
但你是自己背景和实际引起共鸣的专家。
And you're much more likely to do it if you came up with it.
如果你想出它，你就更有可能做到这一点。
Lenny Rachitsky: I was going to mention that earlier.
Lenny Rachitsky：我早些时候就想提到这一点。
That is so incredibly true.
这是非常真实的。
No one wants to ...
没有人愿意...
unless you ask for advice, very few people are like, "Please tell me what to do."
除非你寻求建议，否则很少有人会说：“请告诉我该怎么做。”
Lenny Rachitsky: I really love just unsolicited advice.
Lenny Rachitsky：我真的很喜欢主动提出的建议。
That doesn't go well.
那不太顺利。
Rachel Lockett: Yeah.
雷切尔·洛克特：是的。
And great leaders often say, "Do you want advice or do you want some space to think about it?
伟大的领导者经常说：“你想要建议还是想要一些空间来思考？
Can I help you think it through?
我可以帮你想一下吗？
Or would you like me to tell you what I would do?" And both are fine in certain situations.
或者你想让我告诉你我会做什么？”在某些情况下两者都很好。
So asking is useful too.
所以询问也是有用的。
Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。
Okay.
好的。
That's such an important element of this that we should have mentioned and I'm glad you did.
这是我们应该提到的一个重要因素，我很高兴你这样做了。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。
So I'm going to go back to asking you questions.
所以我要回去问你们问题。
Lenny Rachitsky: This is a good segway to something I wanted to spend a little time on, which is burnout.
Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个很好的赛格威，让我可以花一点时间去做一些事情，那就是倦怠。
Lenny Rachitsky: What I'm talking about is stuff that often leads to burnout.
Lenny Rachitsky：我所说的是经常导致倦怠的事情。
I'm definitely not burnt out, but this is a common problem in tech.
我绝对没有精疲力竭，但这是科技领域的一个常见问题。
Where people feel depleted and just go too hard.
人们感到精疲力竭并且过于努力。
So many people I've worked with just left tech.
我共事过的很多人都刚刚离开科技行业。
I had a colleague at Airbnb, he's like a park ranger now near woods.
我在爱彼迎有一位同事，他现在就像树林附近的公园管理员。
That's how far tech-
科技就这么远了
Lenny Rachitsky: So peaceful and so wonderful.
Lenny Rachitsky：如此平静，如此美妙。
But I think that's just people go so hard sometimes and then just get burnt out and never want to do anything like this again.
但我认为这只是人们有时太过努力，然后就精疲力竭，再也不想做这样的事情了。
I know that you've spent a lot of time on this with founders and you have a really helpful approach.
我知道您和创始人在这方面花了很多时间，并且您的方法非常有用。
So just talk about what you've learned about helping leaders in tech avoid burnout and feel energized and excited about their work for a long time.
因此，只需谈谈您在帮助科技行业领导者避免倦怠并长期对工作感到充满活力和兴奋方面所学到的知识即可。
Rachel Lockett: Yeah.
雷切尔·洛克特：是的。
Well first of all, I'm glad you brought it up.
首先，我很高兴你提出这个问题。
It's a huge problem.
这是一个大问题。
I remember when I was coaching top talent at Stripe, Patrick Collison is really committed to retaining top talent.
我记得当我在 Stripe 指导顶尖人才时，帕特里克·科里森 (Patrick Collison) 非常致力于留住顶尖人才。
And I created a program with my team for the top 50 executives in the tech side of the house.
我和我的团队为技术领域的前 50 名高管创建了一个项目。
And we looked at their engagement scores, we did coaching circles.
我们查看了他们的参与度分数，我们进行了教练圈。
And it was so sad to see how exhausted that group of incredibly creative and committed leaders was in that moment.
看到那群极具创造力和忠诚的领导者在那一刻是多么疲惫，真是令人悲伤。
Rachel Lockett: And it's so common that people who start with incredible inspiration and incredible capacity start to feel like they've been pushing and pushing and pushing for years.
雷切尔·洛克特：这种情况很常见，以至于那些一开始就拥有令人难以置信的灵感和令人难以置信的能力的人开始感觉自己多年来一直在推动、推动、推动。
They're parenting, they're leading, crazy things are happening to the business.
他们在养育孩子，他们在领导，企业正在发生疯狂的事情。
And they just can't muster the same kind of motivation they once had.
他们只是无法再像以前那样鼓起动力了。
And I see this with my clients all the time.
我一直在我的客户身上看到这一点。
Rachel Lockett: So I've also witnessed people who are still inspired and continually energetic and seem to have some secret well of some diesel battery, or I guess I should say a Tesla battery that helps them through really hard challenges, and they're still having a good time.
雷切尔·洛基特：我也见过一些人仍然充满灵感，持续精力充沛，似乎拥有某种柴油电池的秘密井，或者我想我应该说特斯拉电池可以帮助他们应对真正困难的挑战，而且他们仍然玩得很开心。
And so what I make of that is that when people are in their gifts and their strengths firmly, most of the time, they have more energy.
所以我的理解是，当人们坚定地发挥自己的天赋和优势时，大多数时候，他们会有更多的能量。
We all have more energy when we're operating from the things we naturally are good at and the things we innately love doing.
当我们从事我们天生擅长的事情和我们天生喜欢做的事情时，我们都会有更多的精力。
Rachel Lockett: So I try to help my leaders see that they can design their lives so they're spending 80% of their time in their gifts.
Rachel Lockett：所以我试图帮助我的领导者看到他们可以设计自己的生活，这样他们就能将 80% 的时间花在他们的天赋上。
That seems really ambitious because you're stuck within a context that requires a lot of you.
这看起来确实雄心勃勃，因为你陷入了一个需要你付出很多努力的环境中。
Especially when you're executive at a huge company.
尤其是当你在一家大公司担任高管时。
But I also interact with founders who started a company with great inspiration, an entrepreneurial vision, and their job has obviously changed every six months.
但我也与创始人互动，他们以巨大的灵感和创业愿景创办了一家公司，他们的工作显然每六个月就会改变一次。
Once you fundraise, once you grow a team.
一旦你筹集资金，一旦你组建了团队。
And sometimes, especially technical founders will start solving a technical problem they're absolutely obsessed with.
有时，尤其是技术创始人会开始解决他们绝对痴迷的技术问题。
They spend three years doing it, the product ships, and then they're stuck managing a board and a team.
他们花了三年的时间来做这件事，产品发货，然后他们就不得不管理一个董事会和一个团队。
And they don't even realize they're doing a completely different job than the one that played to their strengths.
他们甚至没有意识到自己所做的工作与发挥自己优势的工作完全不同。
Rachel Lockett: So one tool I like to give is for people to actually take two weeks and every night reflect on, what are the five things today that gave me the most energy?
雷切尔·洛基特：所以我喜欢提供的一个工具是让人们实际上花两周时间每天晚上反思，今天给我最多能量的五件事是什么？
And what are the five things that depleted my energy the most?
最消耗我精力的五件事是什么？
If you do that for two weeks and you look at patterns, you can tell, what are the natural gifts that I'm living in?
如果你这样做两周并观察模式，你就能看出，我生活中的天赋是什么？
And what are the things that I'm stuck doing that are exhausting?
哪些事情是我坚持做而让我筋疲力尽的？
And they're just slowly ...
而他们只是慢慢地...
it's like a slow leak in your gas tank that over time shows up in your daily amount of energy.
这就像你的油箱缓慢泄漏一样，随着时间的推移，它会体现在你每天的能量消耗中。
Lenny Rachitsky: I so believe this advice is so effective.
Lenny Rachitsky：我相信这个建议非常有效。
This is the way I actually approach when I left my job.
这就是我离职后的实际做法。
I very actively did this.
我非常积极地这样做了。
I paid attention every day, what gave me energy?
我每天都在关注，是什么给了我能量？
And what sapped my energy?
是什么耗尽了我的精力？
And let me just do more of the thing that gave me energy and less of the thing that saps me.
让我多做那些给我能量的事情，少做那些让我精疲力尽的事情。
I want to talk about just like, there's only so much you can change, but I want to talk about that.
我想说的是，你能改变的只有这么多，但我想谈谈这一点。
And so initially I was like, maybe I'll become an advisor and consultant kind of person.
所以最初我想，也许我会成为一名顾问和顾问之类的人。
I actually found that was super depleting for me.
我实际上发现这对我来说非常消耗精力。
Lenny Rachitsky: Doing these calls and talking to people because it's like surface level, here are some things I would do.
Lenny Rachitsky：打这些电话并与人们交谈，因为这就像表面层面的事情，这里有一些我会做的事情。
And it was just so unexciting and energizing.
它是如此平淡无奇却又充满活力。
But writing was really energizing, which I'd never expected.
但写作确实让人充满活力，这是我从未预料到的。
Lenny Rachitsky: And that's what I did, and I just followed that pole.
Lenny Rachitsky：我就是这么做的，我只是沿着那根杆子走。
Rachel Lockett: And it sounds like maybe you need a refresh, Lenny.
雷切尔·洛基特：听起来也许你需要恢复一下，莱尼。
Rachel Lockett: There's always more tuning you can do to your gifts.
Rachel Lockett：你总是可以对你的天赋进行更多的调整。
You're in this amazing ...
你正处于这个奇妙的...
you've clearly been successful for a reason, you're in your strengths and you're paying attention to what brings you energy.
显然，你的成功是有原因的，你有自己的优势，并且你正在关注什么能给你带来能量。
We can always do that more throughout our life.
我们一生都可以做得更多。
I think it's a process of continually tuning in to where your spark is.
我认为这是一个不断调整自己的火花所在的过程。
And protecting that spark, feeding it.
并保护那个火花，为其提供能量。
I love that insight, that just blew my mind.: So very tactically, the way you would do this is for two weeks every night is the idea, reflect back on that day and write down five things that gave you energy, five things that sap you of energy.
我喜欢这种洞察力，这让我大吃一惊。：所以从战术上讲，你每天晚上要做这件事的方式就是两周的时间，回想那一天，写下五件事给你能量，五件事消耗你的能量。
Rachel Lockett: Yeah, there's so many different activities you could use.
雷切尔·洛克特：是的，你可以使用很多不同的活动。
So that's one.
这就是其中之一。
I like an activity of actually asking five to ten people in your life with a very simple email.
我喜欢用一封非常简单的电子邮件实际询问生活中五到十个人的活动。
When I walk in the room, what shows up?
当我走进房间时，会出现什么？
What are my strengths?
我的优势是什么？
What are the gifts?
礼物是什么？
If you really don't know them and you haven't spent a lot of time in this realm, that's also an opportunity of actually asking the people who know you best, what your core gifts are?
如果你真的不了解他们，并且你没有在这个领域花费很多时间，那么这也是一个真正询问最了解你的人的机会，你的核心天赋是什么？
And when do you have the most inspiration?
你什么时候灵感最多？
Rachel Lockett: You can also look through your calendar and note themes.
Rachel Lockett：您还可以查看日历并记下主题。
Okay, over the last month, what are all the things I look at on my calendar that I'm excited to do?
好的，在过去的一个月里，我在日历上看到了哪些让我兴奋的事情？
What are the things I dread?
我害怕的事情是什么？
Okay, why do I dread those things?
好吧，我为什么害怕这些东西？
What do those things have in common?
这些东西有什么共同点？
So there's various ways you can get to what is your zone of genius?
那么，有多种方法可以让你达到你的天才领域呢？
But what my invitation is to take that really seriously.
但我的邀请是认真对待这一点。
It actually takes risk taking, it takes intention to design your life around your gifts.
这实际上需要冒险，需要用心围绕你的天赋来设计你的生活。
Lenny Rachitsky: Is there any advice for actually doing this?
Lenny Rachitsky：对于实际这样做有什么建议吗？
Say someone's just like, "Yeah, I got to do this." But most people don't actually do this.
如果有人说：“是的，我必须这么做。”但大多数人实际上并没有这样做。
Is there a buddy you can nominate, just help you do this?
您可以指定一个伙伴来帮助您做到这一点吗？
Is it like if you have an EA, they can maybe help you with this?
是不是如果您有 EA，他们也许可以帮助您？
Is there anything you've seen?
有什么你见过的吗？
Rachel Lockett: That's a good question.
雷切尔·洛克特：这是一个很好的问题。
Yeah, I love your ideas.
是的，我喜欢你的想法。
I think that the people around you need to be on board and know what are your gifts.
我认为你周围的人需要参与进来并知道你的天赋是什么。
So for example, when I was an HR business partner, my boss bought into this and I explained to her, "Hey, I started at Stripe because I actually know I'm going to be a coach.
举例来说，当我是人力资源业务合作伙伴时，我的老板接受了这一点，我向她解释说，“嘿，我从 Stripe 开始是因为我实际上知道我将成为一名教练。
I'm not going to be Head of HR.
我不会担任人力资源主管。
But I love working with leaders.
但我喜欢与领导者一起工作。
So I'm going to do all the compensation strategy and all the org design, and I'm going to help product and engineering leaders.
因此，我将负责所有的薪酬策略和所有的组织设计，并且我将帮助产品和工程领导者。
But what I have in the back of my mind is I'm honing my coaching skills."
但我内心深处的想法是我正在磨练我的教练技能。”
Rachel Lockett: And so when this opportunity to work on top talent retention came about, it was very aligned in the realm of coaching and L&D, background that I had.
Rachel Lockett：因此，当这个致力于保留顶尖人才的机会出现时，它与我所拥有的教练和学习与发展领域的背景非常一致。
So she put me on that.
所以她让我这么做。
So it's useful to name it to the people around you.
因此，向周围的人命名它很有用。
What are your gifts?
你的礼物是什么？
What are your interests?
你的兴趣是什么？
What skills are you really excited to hone?
您真正渴望磨练哪些技能？
So that they are in a contract with you to help you and really apply your gifts to the business's needs.
这样他们就会与您签订合同，帮助您并真正将您的才能应用于业务需求。
So that's one thing.
所以这是一回事。
Rachel Lockett: When you're a founder, a CEO, when you have the autonomy to consider, what are the role scopes around me?
Rachel Lockett：当你是创始人、首席执行官时，当你有自主权去考虑时，我周围的角色范围是什么？
Then you can really hire around it.
然后你就可以真正围绕它进行招聘。
So I have some CEOs that I work with who are incredible visionaries, great strategists, really good at managing the board, hiring, et cetera.
因此，与我共事的一些首席执行官都是令人难以置信的远见者、伟大的战略家，非常擅长管理董事会、招聘等。
Terrible at managing their team.
不擅长管理他们的团队。
They hate it.
他们讨厌它。
So they hire a COO.
所以他们聘请了一位首席运营官。
And they work in partnership, they have one person who's really internally focused, they get to be externally focused.
他们是合作伙伴关系，他们有一个真正专注于内部的人，他们可以专注于外部。
That works well, it's a symbiotic relationship.
这很有效，这是一种共生关系。
If you're honest about your strengths and you're weaknesses, then you can start to manage around them.
如果你诚实地对待自己的优点和缺点，那么你就可以开始围绕它们进行管理。
Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by Persona, the verified identity platform, helping organizations onboard users, fight fraud and build trust.
Lenny Rachitsky：本集由经过验证的身份平台 Persona 为您带来，帮助组织吸引用户、打击欺诈并建立信任。
We talk a lot on this podcast about the amazing advances in AI.
我们在这个播客上谈论了很多关于人工智能的惊人进步。
But this can be a double-edged sword.
但这可能是一把双刃剑。
For every wow moment, there are fraudsters using the same tech to wreak havoc.
每一个令人惊叹的时刻，都有欺诈者使用相同的技术来造成严重破坏。
Laundering money, taking over employee identities and impersonating businesses.
洗钱、盗用员工身份和冒充企业。
Persona helps combat these threats with automated user, business and employee verification.
Persona 通过自动化的用户、业务和员工验证来帮助应对这些威胁。
Whether you're looking to catch candidate fraud, meet age restrictions or keep your platform safe, Persona helps you verify users in a way that's tailored to your specific needs.
无论您是想发现候选人欺诈、满足年龄限制还是保证平台安全，Persona 都可以帮助您根据您的特定需求定制方式验证用户。
Best of all, Persona makes it easy to know who you're dealing with without adding friction for good users.
最重要的是，Persona 可以让您轻松了解正在与谁打交道，而不会给优秀用户带来麻烦。
This is why leading platforms like Etsy, LinkedIn, Square and Lyft trust Persona to secure their platform.
这就是为什么 Etsy、LinkedIn、Square 和 Lyft 等领先平台信任 Persona 来保护其平台的安全。
Lenny Rachitsky: Persona is also offering my listeners 500 free services per month for one full year.
Lenny Rachitsky：Persona 还为我的听众提供一整年每月 500 项免费服务。
Just head to WithPersona.com/Lenny to get started.
只需前往 WithPersona.com/Lenny 即可开始。
That's WithPersona.
这就是《WithPersona》。
com/Lenny.
com/莱尼。
Thanks again to Persona for sponsoring this episode.
再次感谢 Persona 赞助本期节目。
Lenny Rachitsky: It's really nice to know what you want to do and understand what your dream life looks like.
Lenny Rachitsky：知道自己想做什么并了解自己梦想的生活是什么样子真是太好了。
You also have a job, you have manager, you got things to do, you got responsibilities.
你还有一份工作，你有经理，你有事情要做，你有责任。
So I guess first of all, as you have seen people that are not founders actually make a change to do the things ...
所以我想首先，正如你所看到的，不是创始人的人实际上做出了改变来做事情......
to spend more time on their gifts, to actually not just be like ...
花更多的时间在他们的礼物上，实际上不仅仅是......
like there is ...
就像有...
you have agency to move in a direction that'll make you happier.
你有动力朝着让你更快乐的方向前进。
Lenny Rachitsky: Is kind of an implied piece of this.
Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个隐含的部分。
Rachel Lockett: Yeah, I think sometimes people hire a Chief of Staff to help them and compliment them.
雷切尔·洛基特：是的，我认为有时人们会聘请幕僚长来帮助他们并称赞他们。
Sometimes people design their team with strengths and gifts that they don't have.
有时，人们在设计团队时会赋予他们自己所不具备的优势和天赋。
So it's really ...
所以这真的是...
you can get creative once you really understand, oh, these things give me a ton of energy and these things are exhausting.
一旦你真正理解了，你就能发挥创造力，哦，这些东西给了我大量的能量，而这些东西却让人筋疲力尽。
But I still need to fill this need for the business.
但我仍然需要满足业务的这一需求。
What are all the ways I can do it?
我可以采取哪些方法？
Lenny Rachitsky: And telling your manager, I think, is such a simple and important part of this.
Lenny Rachitsky：我认为，告诉你的经理是其中一个简单而重要的部分。
Telling them-
告诉他们——
Lenny Rachitsky: ...
莱尼·拉奇茨基：……
here's where I want to go, here's the things I want to get better at, here's the things that give me energy.
这是我想去的地方，这是我想做得更好的事情，这是给我能量的事情。
Can we just try to make as much of my role that?
我们能尽量发挥我的作用吗？
Rachel Lockett: Yeah.
雷切尔·洛克特：是的。
Especially if you're executing well, people want to retain you.
尤其是如果你执行得很好，人们就会想留住你。
They want to know, what's going to keep you here for the next five years?
他们想知道，是什么让你在接下来的五年里留在这里？
And typically they think that means moving up the ladder.
他们通常认为这意味着晋升。
But maybe it doesn't for you.
但也许它不适合你。
I think it does take the courage to move horizontally sometimes to get into your strengths.
我认为有时确实需要勇气横向移动才能发挥自己的优势。
I mean, I've moved horizontally a number of times and I love what I do, I feel like I'm in my natural gifts.
我的意思是，我已经横向移动过很多次了，我喜欢我所做的事情，我觉得我有天赋。
But it took me a few risks and some uncomfortable jobs that didn't feel like they were worthy of my experience in order to get there.
但我冒了一些风险，做了一些不舒服的工作，觉得这些工作不值得我经历才能到达那里。
Lenny Rachitsky: What's a good percentage of your work life that should be in gifts and things that energize you versus, okay, I actually got stuff.
Lenny Rachitsky：在你的工作生活中，礼物和能让你充满活力的事物的比例应该占多少，好吧，我实际上得到了一些东西。
Rachel Lockett: My litmus test is 80%, that's the goal.
Rachel Lockett：我的试金石是 80%，这就是目标。
Rachel Lockett: That's the aspiration.
雷切尔·洛克特：这就是愿望。
You're always going to have 20% of things you don't love doing.
你总会有 20% 的事情是你不喜欢做的。
There's just the logistics of getting into the zone that you need to be in.
这只是进入你需要进入的区域的后勤工作。
But I really try to push people to think aspirationally, that if you're 80% of the time in your gifts, how much energy you have to give to the world.
但我确实试图促使人们积极思考，如果你 80% 的时间都在发挥自己的天赋，那么你必须为世界奉献多少能量。
It's so much more inspiring.
这更鼓舞人心。
Rachel Lockett: So I want to tell you why I'm passionate about this topic because it actually is how I ended up as an Executive Coach.
Rachel Lockett：所以我想告诉你为什么我对这个话题充满热情，因为这实际上就是我最终成为一名执行教练的原因。
So 10 years ago, I was working at a small company called Remind, and I was running the UX Research team.
10 年前，我在一家名为 Remind 的小公司工作，负责管理用户体验研究团队。
And the CEO asked me to move into the Product Manager role for the Core Product team.
首席执行官要求我担任核心产品团队的产品经理角色。
And I was excited for the opportunity.
我对这个机会感到很兴奋。
I had non-technical background, but I thought, "Hey, all these strategists are up there creating the roadmap.
我没有技术背景，但我想，“嘿，所有这些战略家都在那里制定路线图。
I can do that.
我能做到。
I know exactly what our users need." So I was excited for this.
我确切地知道我们的用户需要什么。”所以我对此感到兴奋。
Rachel Lockett: I came into the team, there was I think 12 senior engineers, very opinionated, very skeptical, this non-technical PM, but we worked together.
Rachel Lockett：我加入了团队，我认为有 12 名高级工程师，非常固执己见，非常怀疑，这位非技术性的 PM，但我们一起工作。
And what I did was I listened.
我所做的就是倾听。
I learned what do our users need?
我了解到我们的用户需要什么？
What does this team need?
这个团队需要什么？
What's working and not working?
什么有效，什么无效？
And with-
并与-
Rachel Lockett: What does this team need?
Rachel Lockett：这个团队需要什么？
What's working and not working?
什么有效，什么无效？
And within a month, this team was working well together.
一个月之内，这个团队就合作得很好。
They were reviewing each other's code base.
他们正在审查彼此的代码库。
They were really disagreeing in a healthy way in our team meetings.
在我们的团队会议上，他们确实以健康的方式提出了不同意见。
They felt more connected to users.
他们感觉与用户的联系更加紧密。
And I felt like, "Okay, this rhythm is working." But what I was also doing as I was at home stressing in the middle of the night about the new user experience, I couldn't decide which of the designs to go with.
我感觉，“好吧，这个节奏很有效。”但是，当我在半夜在家强调新的用户体验时，我也正在做的事情是，我无法决定采用哪种设计。
I was always over leveraging our data scientists, and I found myself swirling on decisions that didn't need to have so much stress involved.
我总是过度利用我们的数据科学家，我发现自己在做出不需要有太多压力的决策时陷入困境。
And one day I went for a walk with my colleague Zach Abrams, and he was a great product manager and he was listening to me ask all these questions about how to sell the vision of what this product would look like in the future.
有一天，我和我的同事扎克·艾布拉姆斯(Zach Abrams)一起散步，他是一位出色的产品经理，他正在听我问所有这些关于如何推销该产品未来的愿景的问题。
Rachel Lockett: And he said, "Rachel, you're a zone of genius or your gift is not being a product strategist, but I've watched you over the last few months, and you have gotten the team more motivated than I ever could, and you've influenced the entire executive team behind your ideas, and that's impressive.
雷切尔·洛基特：他说，“雷切尔，你是一个天才，或者说你的天赋不是产品策略师，但我在过去几个月里一直在观察你，你让团队比我更有动力，你影响了你的想法背后的整个执行团队，这令人印象深刻。
You're a people person." And at first I was offended.
你是一个善于交际的人。”起初我很生气。
What?
什么？
You think I don't have the ability to be a great product leader?
你认为我没有能力成为一名优秀的产品负责人吗？
And yet I sat with what he said, and I knew he was right.
但我还是坐下来听他说的话，我知道他是对的。
Both my parents are therapists.
我的父母都是治疗师。
I never wanted to be a therapist.
我从来没想过成为一名治疗师。
Here I am.
我在这里。
I'm basically a work therapist.
我基本上是一名工作治疗师。
I love entrepreneurial energy, I love big vision, but I'm a people person.
我喜欢创业活力，喜欢远大的愿景，但我是一个善于交际的人。
Rachel Lockett: And I left that, and I realized I love what my coach does.
雷切尔·洛克特：我离开了，我意识到我喜欢我的教练所做的事情。
I got trained as a coach.
我接受了教练培训。
I went into HR leadership.
我进入了人力资源领导层。
And Zach, who was a gifted product strategist, went on to lead product at Coinbase and BREX and most recently Bridge, which was acquired by Stripe, and he's still my client.
Zach 是一位才华横溢的产品策略师，后来在 Coinbase 和 BREX 以及最近被 Stripe 收购的 Bridge 领导产品，他仍然是我的客户。
And we've watched our journeys over the last decade, and we've both been honing our gifts.
我们见证了过去十年的旅程，我们都在磨练我们的天赋。
Life is more fun when you're in your gifts, and you have more inspiration and capacity to offer the world.
当你拥有天赋时，生活会变得更加有趣，并且你有更多的灵感和能力为世界提供帮助。
So I just want to share that story because it's helpful to be honest with the people you care about when they seem energized and when they seem depleted because sometimes it's a wakeup call for people to really think about what is their spark and to protect it and to feed it.
所以我只是想分享这个故事，因为当你关心的人看起来精力充沛或疲惫不堪时，对他们诚实是有帮助的，因为有时这是一个警钟，让人们真正思考自己的火花是什么，并保护它并滋养它。
Lenny Rachitsky: I love that story because I think most people when they hear this advice and this topic of, "Okay, I am feeling depleted, I'm feeling burnt out," I feel like most people jump to, "Okay, but I can't actually do anything about it.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢这个故事，因为我认为大多数人在听到这个建议和这个话题时，“好吧，我感到精疲力尽，我感到精疲力尽”，我觉得大多数人都会跳到，“好吧，但我实际上对此无能为力。
I have a job.
我有工作。
I got responsibilities." What I'm getting from this is the most important step is jump to figure out what you actually should be doing.
我有责任。”我从中得到的是最重要的一步是跳出找出你实际上应该做什么。
What gives you energy?
什么给你能量？
What your gifts are.
你的礼物是什么。
It feels like that's the biggest gap for people because once you know that, there are ways to do that.
感觉这对人们来说是最大的差距，因为一旦你知道了这一点，就有办法做到这一点。
Talk to your manager.
与您的经理交谈。
"It may not be possible today, but here's where I want to be going.
“今天也许不可能，但这就是我想去的地方。
Here's what I want to be spending time on." I love your point you made though about you actually have to be doing well for your manager to listen to you.
这就是我想花时间做的事情。”我喜欢你提出的观点，尽管你实际上必须做得很好，你的经理才会听你的。
You can't just be sucking and then like, "Oh, but I want to work on strategy."
你不能只是表现得很糟糕，然后说：“哦，但我想研究策略。”
Rachel Lockett: Yeah.
雷切尔·洛克特：是的。
Well, it's no one else's job to help you live in your gifts.
嗯，帮助你活出你的天赋并不是别人的工作。
And what I notice in big companies is people are often annoyed or frustrated with their management for not making their job more interesting.
我在大公司注意到，人们经常对他们的管理层没有让他们的工作变得更有趣而感到恼火或沮丧。
It's like, "No, your manager's job is to help you perform in the job you were hired to do.
就像是，“不，你的经理的工作是帮助你完成受雇的工作。
It's your job to navigate your career." So over the arc of your career, how do you match your gifts with the world's needs?
驾驭你的职业生涯是你的工作。”那么在你的职业生涯中，你如何将你的天赋与世界的需求相匹配呢？
And if the world right now is your company, how do you understand the needs enough so that you can apply your strengths to those needs?
如果现在的世界就是您的公司，您如何充分了解需求，以便能够运用自己的优势来满足这些需求？
Lenny Rachitsky: This reminds me, there's a couple of guests I've had on the podcast who did this.
Lenny Rachitsky：这让我想起，我在播客上遇到的几位嘉宾就这么做了。
They're both founders, so this is specific to founders, but Rahul Vohra at Superhuman, he realized he's not the best executor operations person, so he hired a president that took all that office plate.
他们都是创始人，所以这是创始人特有的，但是 Super human 的 Rahul Vohra，他意识到自己不是最好的执行运营人员，所以他聘请了一位接管了所有办公室牌照的总裁。
And then Darmesh, co-founder of HubSpot, he knew from the beginning he didn't want to manage people, so he made a rule with his co-founder, "I will never have reports." And he's the CTO, I believe, and has zero reports, has no one-on-ones.
然后是 HubSpot 的联合创始人 Darmesh，他从一开始就知道自己不想管理人，所以他和联合创始人定下了一条规则，“我永远不会有报告”。我相信他是首席技术官，零报告，没有一对一的。
Rachel Lockett: Yeah.
雷切尔·洛克特：是的。
And I think that it's a beautiful thing to recognize that, but then to actually address the needs of those reports also.
我认为认识到这一点是一件很美好的事情，但随后也能真正满足这些报告的需求。
I think often people know, "Ugh, I don't want to have one-on-ones," but just not having anyone to manage those people is not going to be healthy for your company.
我认为人们常常知道，“呃，我不想进行一对一的”，但如果没有人来管理这些人，对你的公司来说并不会有什么好处。
So you have to both take your strength seriously and actively manage around your weaknesses.
因此，你必须认真对待自己的优势，并积极管理自己的劣势。
Lenny Rachitsky: Is there any maybe last piece of advice on this topic of helping people get to a place where they're feeling much less depleted and just more energized at work?
Lenny Rachitsky：关于这个主题，是否有任何可能的最后一条建议可以帮助人们在工作中感觉不那么疲惫，而且更加充满活力？
Rachel Lockett: I would start small.
雷切尔·洛克特：我会从小事做起。
You don't have to leave your job and redesign your life.
您不必离开工作并重新设计您的生活。
You can stop going to the optional things that are exhausting.
你可以停止去做那些令人筋疲力尽的可选事情。
You can leave space between the things that are depleting that you have to go to outside and go on a 30-minute walk and refuel your tank.
你可以在那些消耗能量的东西之间留出空间，然后你可以到外面去散步 30 分钟，给你的油箱补充能量。
Start with tomorrow.
从明天开始。
What are the three things you're going to do to plug up that gas leak and re-energize your spark?
为了堵住燃气泄漏并重新激发火花，您将采取哪三件事？
It might even be you love to read and you're going to start reading 30 minutes before you go to sleep every night.
甚至可能你喜欢阅读，并且你会在每晚睡觉前 30 分钟开始阅读。
It doesn't have to be a dramatic life change, but recognize that only you know what is resonant and what is depleting, and it's your job to take that seriously if you want to show up purposeful and impactful in the world.
这不一定是生活的巨大变化，但要认识到，只有你知道什么是引起共鸣的，什么是消耗性的，如果你想在世界上表现出有目的和有影响力，你就有责任认真对待这一点。
Lenny Rachitsky: I love that advice.
Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢这个建议。
I've actually started reading before bed for 30 minutes, and that's been so joyful, like a physical book with a little nightlight.
事实上，我已经开始在睡前阅读 30 分钟，这真是太快乐了，就像一本带小夜灯的实体书。
Rachel Lockett: I agree.
雷切尔·洛克特：我同意。
I love a physical book.
我喜欢实体书。
I have a Kindle, I got all the things, but a physical book on the couch is the best.
我有一台 Kindle，什么都有，但沙发上的实体书是最好的。
Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, it's just that nightlight is key because sometimes at nighttime you need a night book.
Lenny Rachitsky：是的，只是夜灯很关键，因为有时在晚上你需要一本夜书。
So we've been talking mostly so far about individual improvement, how to figure out what you should be working on, just helping learning to coach, things like that.
所以到目前为止，我们主要讨论的是个人进步，如何弄清楚你应该做什么，只是帮助学习教练，诸如此类的事情。
I want to take us up a little level above and talk about team skills, how people get better at working with other people.
我想把我们带到更高的层次，谈谈团队技能，以及人们如何更好地与他人合作。
Something that you are in many ways known for is helping co-founders build better relationships.
您在很多方面都以帮助联合创始人建立更好的关系而闻名。
And in my experience one of the most challenging parts of starting a company is the co-founder relationship.
根据我的经验，创办公司最具挑战性的部分之一就是联合创始人的关系。
A lot of people don't realize what they're getting into.
很多人并没有意识到自己正在陷入什么境地。
You're basically getting married to this person in a very high stress situation, and you sometimes don't know much about them.
你基本上是在压力很大的情况下与这个人结婚的，有时你对他们不太了解。
Lenny Rachitsky: And then you not working well together is just a huge issue because that all trickles down, and everyone sees it.
Lenny Rachitsky：然后你们不能很好地合作只是一个大问题，因为这一切都会慢慢地流下来，每个人都看到它。
And when co-founders leave, it's really bad for everyone.
当联合创始人离开时，这对每个人来说都是件坏事。
So let me just ask you this, what have you found most helpful in helping co-founders build great relationships, stay happy and productive?
那么，让我问你一个问题，你认为什么对于帮助联合创始人建立良好的关系、保持快乐和高效最有帮助？
Rachel Lockett: Yeah, thanks for asking this.
雷切尔·洛克特：是的，谢谢你提出这个问题。
I love working with co-founders because I think your core values as a person come out when they interact with someone else's core values.
我喜欢与联合创始人一起工作，因为我认为当他们与其他人的核心价值观互动时，你作为一个人的核心价值观就会显现出来。
Conflict, healthy conflict or otherwise, is actually where your core values come out.
冲突，无论是健康的冲突还是其他冲突，实际上都是你的核心价值观的体现。
So it's fascinating to watch people try to do something incredibly hard in the context of someone else's vision, someone else's strengths and weaknesses and navigate that together.
因此，看到人们在别人的愿景、别人的优点和缺点的背景下尝试做一些极其困难的事情，并共同克服它，这是很有趣的。
So there's so much energy in the co-founder dynamic for me and for co-founders themselves.
因此，联合创始人的活力对我和联合创始人本身来说都充满了活力。
It's actually something that people don't feel comfortable going to their board about or talking to that many people about because it's a private matter.
实际上，人们不愿意去董事会讨论或与这么多人谈论这件事，因为这是私事。
It's almost like in a marriage you go see a couples' therapist, but you don't tell all your friends that you can't stand your partner, but it keeps you up at night.
这几乎就像在婚姻中你去看夫妻治疗师，但你没有告诉你所有的朋友你无法忍受你的伴侣，但这让你彻夜难眠。
So it's a really tender, important relationship, and there aren't enough supports for co-founders to navigate it.
因此，这是一种非常温柔、重要的关系，但联合创始人没有足够的支持来驾驭这种关系。
It's very normal.
这很正常。
Rachel Lockett: In fact, I know you probably know this stat, 65% of startups fail because of co-founder conflict, and co-founders are in a moment where they're trying to build the future for their business, but also trying to build their own livelihood.
Rachel Lockett：事实上，我知道你可能知道这个统计数据，65% 的初创公司因联合创始人冲突而失败，而联合创始人正处于一个他们试图为自己的企业打造未来的时刻，但也试图建立自己的生计。
So there's so much at stake to get along with your co-founder.
因此，与联合创始人相处有很多利害关系。
I think the core at its core, what you need in a healthy relationship is, one, self-awareness.
我认为，健康关系的核心是，第一，自我意识。
What do I bring into this dynamic, and how am I being experienced by the other person?
我要给这种动态带来什么？对方对我的体验如何？
What does this other person bring into the dynamic, and how am I reacting to that?
这个人给动态带来了什么，我对此有何反应？
So the first is just collective awareness about what is our dynamic.
因此，第一个就是关于我们的动态的集体意识。
I like to use the Enneagram for this, but there's all kinds of tools, self-awareness tools that you can use to give a common language to what is my thing and what is your thing.
我喜欢用九型人格来做这件事，但是有各种各样的工具，自我意识工具，你可以用它们来为我的事和你的事提供共同语言。
Rachel Lockett: A very classic one has to do with roles.
Rachel Lockett：一个非常经典的问题与角色有关。
CTOs tend to be skeptics.
CTO 往往持怀疑态度。
They love facts, they seek knowledge.
他们热爱事实，寻求知识。
They want depth of awareness and understanding, and they also like to be self-sufficient.
他们想要深度的认识和理解，而且他们也喜欢自给自足。
This is a total generalization, but I've seen this pattern over and over again.
这完全是概括性的，但我已经一遍又一遍地看到这种模式。
The CEO is the person who had to sell the vision.
首席执行官是必须推销愿景的人。
They're a person who loves big picture vision strategy.
他们是一个热爱大局愿景策略的人。
They often are great at influencing others.
他们往往非常善于影响他人。
They love to sell ahead of the reality of what the company's actually built.
他们喜欢在公司实际建造的产品出现之前就进行销售。
This creates an inherent tension between blind optimism and skepticism, and it's a dance that these two roles play together.
这在盲目乐观和怀疑之间造成了一种内在的张力，这是这两个角色一起演奏的舞蹈。
So the first part is knowing the dance you're in, so you're not just stepping on each other's toes blindly.
所以第一部分是了解你所处的舞蹈，这样你就不会盲目地踩对方的脚趾。
Rachel Lockett: The second step is actually being conscious about the commitment you're making to your relationship.
雷切尔·洛克特：第二步实际上是意识到你对你们的关系做出的承诺。
In a marriage, for example, I talk about co-founder vows and recommitments and renewals because in a marriage you get married, and a lot of times people build a family and then they think, "Oh, the relationship will just continue around each other all the time.
例如，在婚姻中，我谈论联合创始人的誓言、重新承诺和更新，因为在婚姻中，你结婚了，很多时候人们建立了一个家庭，然后他们想，“哦，这种关系将一直围绕着彼此继续下去。
We're doing this thing together." But just like couples need a date night, co-founders need time and space to connect with each other to come together and say, "How's this working for you?
我们正在一起做这件事。”但就像情侣需要约会之夜一样，联合创始人也需要时间和空间来相互联系，聚在一起说：“这对你来说怎么样？
Are we still aligned on our vision and our strategy?
我们的愿景和战略仍然一致吗？
How are we working together?
我们合作得怎么样？
What am I doing that's pissing you off?
我做了什么让你生气了？
What are the things that have gone unsaid and that we need to talk about?"
有哪些事情没有说出来而我们需要讨论？”
Rachel Lockett: But if you're just in the hustle and bustle of running and scaling your startup, you don't make time for that conversation.
雷切尔·洛克特：但是，如果你只是忙于运营和扩展你的初创公司，你就不会腾出时间进行这种对话。
So I think it's incredibly important for co- founders to make space for their relationship, whether that's a dinner every other week, whether that's going out to lunch regularly, whether that's just touching base business-wise, but having an in-person quarterly check-in.
因此，我认为，对于联合创始人来说，为他们的关系腾出空间是非常重要的，无论是每隔一周吃一次晚餐，还是定期出去吃午餐，无论只是在业务方面进行接触，还是每季度亲自进行一次登记。
That space is critical for the health of a co-founder relationship.
这个空间对于联合创始人关系的健康至关重要。
Lenny Rachitsky: On that second piece, the vows idea is such a good idea.
Lenny Rachitsky：在第二件作品中，誓言的想法真是个好主意。
Is that something you actually recommend, here's what I vow to do?
这是你真正推荐的事情吗？这就是我发誓要做的事情？
Rachel Lockett: Yeah, here's what I commit to do.
Rachel Lockett：是的，这就是我承诺要做的事情。
So recently I actually wrote an article with First Round, and we created a document to help co-founders think about what to integrate into their check-in.
所以最近我实际上在 First Round 上写了一篇文章，我们创建了一个文档来帮助联合创始人考虑将哪些内容集成到他们的签到中。
So we put out weekly check-in, monthly check-in and annual and just questions to sit down and ask each other.
因此，我们推出了每周检查、每月检查和每年检查，只是坐下来互相询问的问题。
Active listening skills will come in handy in those conversations, but it's about taking space out of hustling and running the business to think about the business from a like to say, instead of being on the dance floor, you need time on the balcony to look down at what's happening.
积极的倾听技巧在这些对话中会派上用场，但这是为了从忙碌和经营业务中抽出空间来思考业务，而不是在舞池上，你需要时间在阳台上俯视正在发生的事情。
How are we doing?
我们怎么样？
Is this still working for both of us?
这对我们俩仍然有效吗？
And the vows are really about, how are we going to be together?
誓言实际上是关于我们将如何在一起？
How are we going to show up?
我们要如何出现？
What's our culture that we're creating?
我们正在创造什么文化？
Rachel Lockett: Even if you don't want to go through a whole culture exercise early on in building your company, you should have some sense of how you want to show up for each other.
雷切尔·洛克特：即使你不想在创建公司的早期就经历整个文化练习，你也应该了解自己想要如何向对方展示。
How are we going to make decisions?
我们将如何做出决定？
How are we going to deal with conflict?
我们将如何处理冲突？
These are things you can go into intentionally and design with your co-founder.
这些是你可以有意识地参与并与你的联合创始人一起设计的事情。
Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
We're going to link to that post The first step, Enneagram sounds like that's what you recommend, and this is basically a personality profile that a lot of people love.
我们将链接到那篇文章第一步，九型人格听起来就是您推荐的，这基本上是很多人喜欢的性格概况。
Rachel Lockett: I really like the Enneagram.
雷切尔·洛克特：我真的很喜欢九型人格。
I think you can also simply tell each other, "Here are my strengths.
我想你们也可以简单地告诉对方：“这是我的优势。
Here's what I see as my weaknesses, and what do you think?
以下是我认为自己的弱点，您有何看法？
Give me some feedback.
给我一些反馈。
Do you agree?" And you can do that with each other without any personality assessment.
你同意吗？”你们可以在没有任何性格评估的情况下互相做到这一点。
If you want to just be scrappy and have an open connected conversation about, you could even say, what are the gifts I bring and the weaknesses I have, and how will I cover those?
如果你只想斗志旺盛并进行公开的对话，你甚至可以说，我带来的天赋和我的弱点是什么，以及我将如何弥补这些？
How will I lean into my gifts?
我将如何发挥我的天赋？
How will I cover my weaknesses, and how will you?
我将如何弥补我的弱点，你也将如何？
And then I think it's worthwhile having a conversation about, what are the gaps neither of us cover that we're likely going to need as we build this business?
然后我认为值得讨论的是，我们在建立这项业务时可能需要哪些我们都没有涵盖的差距？
Lenny Rachitsky: What do you recommend people do when they are just like, "Our relationship isn't working great.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：当人们说“我们的关系不太好”时，你建议他们做什么。
There's a lot of tension"?
压力很大”？
All this advice we've been talking about, at the beginning, here's things you can do to set things up for success.
我们一开始就讨论过所有这些建议，您可以采取以下措施来为成功做好准备。
Understand what you're good at, what you're bringing to the table.
了解你擅长什么，你能带来什么。
Consciously commit to, here's what I'm going to do, here's what you're going to do.
有意识地承诺，这就是我要做的，这就是你要做的。
Have these dinners or lunches.
吃这些晚餐或午餐。
I love this metaphor of going out on the balcony and just reflecting on how it's going.
我喜欢这个比喻：走到阳台上，思考事情的进展。
So that's all really great.
所以这一切真的很棒。
What if you're just already in it and it's really annoying, I don't like this person that much or so much tension constantly.
如果你已经陷入其中并且真的很烦人怎么办，我不太喜欢这个人，也不喜欢这个人总是那么紧张。
What are a couple things they can do this week, next week?
他们这周、下周可以做哪些事情？
Rachel Lockett: Co-founders typically come to me either in this early phase where they want to intentionally build something great and they want to set it up for success.
Rachel Lockett：联合创始人通常会在早期阶段来找我，他们想要有意打造一些伟大的东西，并希望为成功做好准备。
More often co-founders come when they're really frustrated with one another.
更常见的是，当联合创始人对彼此感到非常沮丧时，他们就会来。
They feel the tension is palpable.
他们感到紧张是显而易见的。
They can't stand it anymore, but they're still really deeply committed to the business so they don't see an out.
他们再也无法忍受了，但他们仍然非常专注于这项业务，所以他们看不到出路。
And they knew that at some point they really loved this cofounder, so they see a possibility of recovering, and that's why they want to go get a coach.
他们知道在某个时候他们真的很喜欢这位联合创始人，所以他们看到了康复的可能性，这就是为什么他们想要去找一位教练。
I'm going to give you an example of this PR duo running a fierce business scaling really fast.
我将向您举一个例子，说明这对公关二人组的业务规模迅速扩大。
And at one point when they started, you had the visionary who was great at selling business.
在他们开始的时候，你有一个非常擅长销售业务的有远见的人。
They were both incredible with PR, and the partner was incredible operationally.
他们在公关方面都非常出色，而合作伙伴在运营方面也非常出色。
Rachel Lockett: So as the business scaled, one took on a lot more business development and the other took on all the internal things, but was exhausted by all this people management and all of the elements of running a scaled team that she didn't expect to have to do.
Rachel Lockett：因此，随着业务规模的扩大，一个人承担了更多的业务开发工作，另一个人则承担了所有内部事务，但她对所有这些人员管理和管理规模化团队的所有要素感到精疲力尽，而她没想到必须要做这些事情。
And when they came, I think both of them weren't sure, can we figure this out?
当他们来的时候，我想他们都不确定，我们能解决这个问题吗？
Do we want to just sell this thing?
我们只想卖掉这个东西吗？
Do we want to keep going?
我们想继续吗？
And I think someone said, "End it or send," was what one co-founder said to me.
我认为有人说，“结束它或发送”，这是一位联合创始人对我说的。
They're coming at this decision point.
他们正值这个决定时刻。
And what I saw them do is, one, they named current state really well.
我看到他们所做的是，第一，他们对当前状态的命名非常好。
They were both able to share.
他们都能够分享。
We did use a 360.
我们确实用了360。
So they got feedback from their teams and then shared it with one another, but they were able to be open and vulnerable in what was working and what wasn't working.
因此，他们从团队那里获得了反馈，然后彼此分享，但他们能够对哪些有效、哪些无效持开放态度和脆弱性。
Not immediately, but over time.
不是立即，而是随着时间的推移。
Rachel Lockett: And they realized they used to love being partners in this work, but as they began to lead different teams, they grew very distant from one another.
Rachel Lockett：他们意识到他们曾经喜欢成为这项工作的合作伙伴，但当他们开始领导不同的团队时，他们彼此之间的距离变得非常遥远。
They were living on opposite sides of the country and actually just coming together and realizing what each other was missing and how lonely it is to lead this scaling company without each other's support and how they actually needed the counterbalance to their strengths and didn't have it was a important start to their healing.
他们生活在国家的两端，实际上只是走到一起，意识到彼此缺少什么，在没有彼此支持的情况下领导这家规模不断扩大的公司是多么孤独，以及他们实际上如何需要平衡自己的优势，而没有这是他们康复的重要开始。
Rachel Lockett: And over our coaching, they turned back towards each other and they created more of a rhythm of how they would get together without me involved.
雷切尔·洛克特：在我们的指导下，他们重新转向彼此，他们创造了更多的节奏，让他们在没有我参与的情况下聚在一起。
And they ended coaching after our arc feeling renewed and really recommitted.
在我们感觉焕然一新并真正重新投入之后，他们结束了教练工作。
They made some changes on their leadership team to fill their gaps.
他们对领导团队进行了一些调整以填补空缺。
They also started, I think, meeting once a week virtually, and they started a cadence of getting together in person quarterly.
我认为，他们还开始每周举行一次虚拟会议，并且开始了每季度亲自聚会的节奏。
And I don't mean to say that just that time means you're going to heal, sometimes coming together and really grappling.
我并不是说那段时间意味着你会痊愈，有时会聚在一起并真正地斗争。
I had one last week where we all came together, we had a great full day in-person discussion about how they were making this co-founder duo, how they were making decisions.
上周我们大家聚在一起，进行了一整天的面对面讨论，讨论他们如何组建这个联合创始人二人组，如何做出决策。
Rachel Lockett: And after that conversation, it was really clear that one of the co-founders was unhappy and didn't appreciate the other one and was not going to change and realized he was a big part of the problem and I think is going to leave the business.
雷切尔·洛克特：在那次谈话之后，很明显，其中一位联合创始人很不高兴，不欣赏另一位联合创始人，并且不会改变，并意识到他是问题的重要组成部分，我认为他将离开公司。
But that's still success because it's clarity.
但这仍然是成功的，因为它很清晰。
You're not muddling in the dark, frustrated, unconscious about the interpersonal dynamics you're in, you're making a choice based on your strengths and what the business needs and this relationship dynamic that you're in to either be in it or to lovingly step out of it.
你不会在黑暗中摸索、沮丧、无意识地了解自己所处的人际关系动态，你会根据自己的优势、业务需求以及你所处的关系动态做出选择，要么加入其中，要么退出。
Lenny Rachitsky: I love how similar this is to just the marriage, all this stuff.
Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢这与婚姻以及所有这些事情有多么相似。
This is the same sort of thing you would do.
这与你会做的事情是一样的。
Rachel Lockett: Totally.
雷切尔·洛克特：完全可以。
I mean a marriage, you're building a life with a partner.
我的意思是婚姻，你正在与伴侣一起构建生活。
So the only difference is a marriage is rooted in sexual attraction and love, and that's not the case always in the co-founder dynamic.
因此，唯一的区别是婚姻植根于性吸引力和爱情，而联合创始人的情况并非总是如此。
But I have worked with couples who are also co-founders, but there should be some element of love for your co-founder.
但我曾与一些同时担任联合创始人的夫妇一起工作过，但对联合创始人应该有一些爱的元素。
In fact, I think that when you work closely with colleagues and you really are able to see their gifts and enable them, you can't help but love them.
事实上，我认为，当你与同事密切合作，并且真正能够看到他们的天赋并启用他们时，你会情不自禁地爱他们。
Lenny Rachitsky: That's a big statement.
Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个重要的声明。
The other takeaway here is that just get coaching.
这里的另一个要点是接受指导。
It feels like that's the solution if things are just not working great.
如果事情进展不顺利，感觉这就是解决方案。
There's only so far you can get just talking.
到目前为止，你只能说话了。
Rachel Lockett: It takes an evolved facilitator, one of the co-founders, being able to hold space for both their frustration and their empathy in a dynamic that is challenging.
雷切尔·洛克特（Rachel Lockett）：这需要一个不断发展的促进者，即联合创始人之一，能够在充满挑战的动态中为他们的挫败感和同理心留出空间。
So outside support is useful.
所以外部支持是有用的。
Sometimes it's actually a team member, it's an HR leader.
有时它实际上是团队成员，是人力资源领导者。
It's the GC who happens to have great people skills.
GC 恰好具有出色的人际交往能力。
You don't always need a coach, but you need space to be vulnerable, open, and curious.
你并不总是需要教练，但你需要空间来展现脆弱、开放和好奇。
So if you can create that on your own, that's great.
因此，如果您可以自己创建它，那就太好了。
I think it's definitely possible.
我认为这绝对是可能的。
Lenny Rachitsky: Outside of the co-founder relationship, do you have any just tactical tips for people to improve their interpersonal skills with just team members, anyone they work with, just people that may struggle like, "Man, I have a hard time with this person.
Lenny Rachitsky：除了联合创始人的关系之外，你有什么战术建议可以帮助人们提高与团队成员、与他们一起工作的任何人、与那些可能会遇到困难的人的人际交往能力，比如“伙计，我和这个人相处得很不好。
I just have a hard time with a lot of people"?
我只是和很多人相处得很困难”？
Rachel Lockett: First of all, people when they want to have a conflict or they want to engage in something that's not working, they come in armored and ready to prove their point.
雷切尔·洛克特：首先，当人们想要发生冲突或者想要从事一些不起作用的事情时，他们就会全副武装，准备证明自己的观点。
It's natural.
这是很自然的。
You've been thinking about this, perseverating over whether you should mention it.
你一直在思考这个问题，一直在纠结要不要提起这件事。
You finally get to the point of engaging, and often there's a misguided view that the goal is to convince the other person that what they're doing is wrong.
当你终于达到了参与的地步时，通常会有一种误导性的观点，认为目标是让对方相信他们所做的事情是错误的。
Actually, the goal of any conflict is to create mutual understanding.
事实上，任何冲突的目的都是为了建立相互理解。
So when I go in to have a conversation with, let's say my husband who's not doing his share of the parenting, my goal is to help him understand what I'm struggling with so that he can empathize, see clearly what's happening, and perhaps meet my needs in some way.
因此，当我进去与我的丈夫（假设他没有尽自己的养育责任）交谈时，我的目标是帮助他了解我正在挣扎的事情，以便他能够理解，清楚地看到正在发生的事情，并也许以某种方式满足我的需求。
But it's not for me to prove to him how little he's doing in the house because he might have a totally different story about what's happening.
但我并不是要向他证明他在家里所做的事情有多么少，因为他可能对正在发生的事情有一个完全不同的故事。
Rachel Lockett: So I'm going to give you a framework that I like that many of my clients use.
Rachel Lockett：所以我将为您提供一个我喜欢我的许多客户使用的框架。
It's from Marshall Rosenberg's Nonviolent Communication.
这是来自马歇尔·罗森伯格的《非暴力沟通》。
It is a book and a framework.
它是一本书，也是一个框架。
So it's four steps.
所以分为四个步骤。
The first step is observations.
第一步是观察。
So my job is to note what is happening factually.
所以我的工作是记录实际发生的事情。
For example, I noticed that in the last three sprint planning meetings, you didn't invite me to those conversations or share with me the roadmap.
例如，我注意到在过去的三个冲刺计划会议中，您没有邀请我参加这些对话或与我分享路线图。
That's an observation.
这是一个观察。
It's a fact.
这是事实。
I could take a picture of it, and no one would argue with it.
我可以给它拍一张照片，没有人会反对。
The next step is feelings.
接下来就是感情了。
So I'm going to express my feelings without blame.
所以我会毫无怨言地表达我的感受。
So I felt anxious not knowing what was on the roadmap for the week.
所以我感到焦虑，不知道本周的路线图上有什么。
I felt confused about whether that meeting happened or not because I wasn't included.
我对那次会议是否举行感到困惑，因为我没有被包括在内。
So this is me sharing my feelings so the other party can empathize and understand what I'm going through without being defensive.
所以这是我分享我的感受，以便对方能够同情和理解我正在经历的事情，而不是防御。
Rachel Lockett: The third step is needs.
Rachel Lockett：第三步是需求。
What are my universal human needs related to this topic?
与这个主题相关的人类普遍需求是什么？
We all have needs.
我们都有需求。
This is not requiring anything of the other person, just helping them understand my needs that are not met.
这并不要求对方做任何事情，只是帮助他们了解我未满足的需求。
So I have a need for clarity, I have a need for collaboration, I have a need for connection, whatever that is.
所以我需要清晰，我需要协作，我需要联系，无论是什么。
And lastly, the step is to make a request.
最后一步是提出请求。
Now, in this model, the request is an olive branch to help the other person meet you and see you.
现在，在这个模型中，请求是一个橄榄枝，帮助对方遇见你并见到你。
It shouldn't be something that's impossible to do.
这应该不是什么不可能做到的事情。
It should be actually something quite small and easy to achieve for the other person to feel successful in connecting to you and understanding you.
实际上，让对方感到成功地与你建立联系并理解你应该是一件非常小而容易实现的事情。
So in this case, I might make a request.
所以在这种情况下，我可能会提出一个要求。
I'd like to ask you next time you have a sprint planning meeting to include me as optional or to send me the roadmap afterwards that you align on.
我想请您下次召开冲刺计划会议时将我作为可选人员参加，或者在之后向我发送您所遵循的路线图。
Rachel Lockett: Now, the other person doesn't have to meet my request.
Rachel Lockett：现在，其他人不必满足我的要求。
They might make a counter proposal, but the most important thing of this model in this conversation is that the other person understands what I'm going through and they don't feel reactive so that we can have a mutual conversation about what's going on.
他们可能会提出反建议，但在这次对话中，这种模式最重要的是，对方理解我正在经历的事情，并且他们不会感到被动，这样我们就可以就正在发生的事情进行相互对话。
Lenny Rachitsky: Wow.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：哇。
This point about how when you're trying to convince someone of something, when something is going wrong, this point that your goal is not to convince them, that your goal is to have mutual understanding, that just blew my mind, and I think it's going to change my life.
当你试图说服某人某件事时，当出现问题时，你的目标不是说服他们，你的目标是相互理解，这一点让我大吃一惊，我认为这将改变我的生活。
Wow.
哇。
Rachel Lockett: Lenny, try this with your wife tonight.
雷切尔·洛克特：莱尼，今晚和你妻子一起试试这个。
NVC is a powerful tool, and actually it's very akin to most models that are about connection.
NVC 是一个强大的工具，实际上它与大多数有关连接的模型非常相似。
The Stanford Business School course that has a T, it's called Touchy Feely that everybody loves.
斯坦福商学院的课程有一个T，叫做“Touchy Feely”，每个人都喜欢。
Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, we've had Carol on the podcast.
Lenny Rachitsky：是的，我们的播客上有卡罗尔。
Rachel Lockett: Great.
雷切尔·洛克特：太好了。
Yeah, so Carol Robbins created this movement.
是的，卡罗尔·罗宾斯发起了这个运动。
There's lit.
亮了。
A lot of founders go to her model that's for founders.
很多创始人都会采用她为创始人设计的模型。
Rachel Lockett: And this is all about, they talk about a net that you can talk about your feelings and your reaction, but as soon as you cross the net to blaming someone else or making an assumption, they're going to have a defensive response.
雷切尔·洛基特：这就是全部，他们谈论的是一个网络，你可以谈论你的感受和反应，但一旦你跨过网络去指责别人或做出假设，他们就会有防御性反应。
But you can be incredibly bold and brave if you stay on your side of the net.
但如果你站在网络的一边，你就会变得非常大胆和勇敢。
So this model helps you do that because it's really about sharing your emotions and your needs and making a request without blame.
所以这个模型可以帮助你做到这一点，因为它实际上是分享你的情感和你的需求，并在不责备的情况下提出请求。
Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。
So what I was going to say as you were going through this framework is here's me, here's what I saw, here's what I'm feeling, here's what I need.
所以当你经历这个框架时我要说的是，这就是我，这就是我所看到的，这就是我所感受到的，这就是我所需要的。
And then now that you have that in context, here's something I'm asking for versus you did this and you're feeling this and you thought this.
现在你已经了解了这一点，这是我所要求的，而不是你做了这件事，你有这样的感觉，你有这样的想法。
Rachel Lockett: Exactly.
雷切尔·洛克特：没错。
It also acknowledges that professionals have feelings.
这也承认专业人士是有感情的。
I think that we operate in tech.
我认为我们从事科技业务。
We're supposed to give all of ourselves, all of our time, all of our energy to this endeavor.
我们应该为这项努力付出全部、全部时间、全部精力。
And it's purely logical.
这完全符合逻辑。
It's not at all true.
这根本不是真的。
It's completely emotional.
这完全是情绪化的。
And if we ignore our feelings, they will bubble up, and we will be unconsciously acting from them.
如果我们忽视自己的感受，它们就会冒出来，而我们就会无意识地根据它们采取行动。
Lenny Rachitsky: And there's this implicit power here that if the person cares about you and loves you or values your relationship, knowing that this makes them feel bad will make them want to change.
Lenny Rachitsky：这里有一种隐含的力量，如果这个人关心你、爱你或重视你们的关系，知道这会让他们感觉不好，就会让他们想要改变。
It's not like you need to tell them, "Change this thing.
你不需要告诉他们，“改变这件事。
Oh, I didn't realize this made you upset or that you have this need.
哦，我没有意识到这让你不高兴或者你有这个需要。
And now that I know that, okay, now I see why this is important to you."
现在我知道了，好吧，现在我明白为什么这对你很重要了。”
Rachel Lockett: That's exactly right.
雷切尔·洛克特：完全正确。
And sometimes the other person will hear that and have a different story or a different perspective.
有时对方会听到这些内容并有不同的故事或不同的观点。
So they might say, " Okay, I can honor that request," or, "I hear that request, and I hear your feelings, but let me explain what happened for me." And one way you could do that is, are you open to hearing that?
所以他们可能会说，“好吧，我可以尊重这个请求”，或者，“我听到了这个请求，我听到了你的感受，但让我解释一下我身上发生了什么。”你可以做到这一点的一种方法是，你愿意听到这个吗？
So they're able to share their side too.
所以他们也能够分享自己的立场。
You don't have to just agree with the person's request.
您不必只是同意此人的请求。
As long as you're setting this tone, the other person's more likely to contribute in a way that achieves mutual understanding because once you're vulnerable, they're going to share their vulnerability.
只要你设定这种基调，其他人就更有可能以实现相互理解的方式做出贡献，因为一旦你脆弱，他们就会分享他们的脆弱。
Lenny Rachitsky: Let me remind folks of the framework.
Lenny Rachitsky：让我提醒大家注意这个框架。
I'm going to try using this.
我要尝试使用这个。
I wish it was a handy acronym off.
我希望这是一个方便的缩写。
So the framework is share what you've observed, just the facts of what is happening.
所以这个框架是分享你所观察到的，只是正在发生的事实。
Just simply, I saw you didn't close the fridge fully.
只是简单地说，我看到你没有完全关闭冰箱。
Your feelings of how that made you feel, the needs that your core human need that drives that feeling, I imagine.
我想，你对这件事的感受，你的核心人类需求驱动了这种感觉。
And then the request you have of the person.
然后是你对该人的要求。
Rachel Lockett: Yes.
雷切尔·洛克特：是的。
And I want to make one note I forgot to say, which is feelings are emotions.
我想提一下我忘了说的一点，那就是感受就是情绪。
So sometimes people say things like, "I feel like you're being a jerk." That's not a feeling, obviously.
所以有时人们会说“我觉得你是个混蛋”之类的话。显然，这不是一种感觉。
A feeling is a sensation in your body that results in an emotion.
感觉是身体产生情绪的感觉。
So naming a feeling is actually not easy for technical leaders sometimes.
所以命名一种感觉对于技术领导来说有时其实并不容易。
I want to make that point because emotions are what get you to the underlying humanity of connection.
我想强调这一点，因为情感是让你了解潜在的人性联系的原因。
Emotions are the key to soliciting empathy.
情感是寻求同理心的关键。
Lenny Rachitsky: Are there phrases that are just examples of non-feelings, like using the word "you" in the way you describe a feeling probably is not a good sign?
Lenny Rachitsky：是否有一些短语只是非感觉的例子，比如在描述感觉时使用“你”这个词可能不是一个好兆头？
Rachel Lockett: Exactly.
雷切尔·洛克特：没错。
If you can say, "I feel like...
如果你可以说：“我感觉...
" even if you add like or, "I feel that...
” 即使你加上喜欢或，“我觉得......
" you're probably going to add a fact.
“你可能会添加一个事实。
It should be an emotion word after I feel.
应该是我感受后的一个情感词。
Lenny Rachitsky: So don't say like, don't say you, don't say that?
Lenny Rachitsky：所以不要说“喜欢”，不要说“你”，不要说那个？
Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
Along this topic, I chatted with a number of clients that have worked with you over the years, and one of the most common themes that they said you help them with is having difficult conversations.
围绕这个话题，我与一些多年来与您合作的客户进行了交谈，他们说您帮助他们解决的最常见主题之一就是进行困难的对话。
And I think we covered actually much of this in what we just talked about, but I'm curious if there's any other advice you have for helping people have difficult conversations.
我认为我们在刚才讨论的内容中实际上已经涵盖了大部分内容，但我很好奇您是否还有其他建议可以帮助人们进行困难的对话。
Let me read a quote from one of your clients.
让我读一下您的一位客户的引述。
Lenny Rachitsky: So she said, "Rachel is exceptional at making difficult decisions clear and making it feel possible to get these decisions actualized." Is there anything more-
莱尼·拉奇茨基：所以她说，“雷切尔非常善于将困难的决定明确化，并让人们感觉这些决定得以实现。”还有什么吗-
Lenny Rachitsky: ...
莱尼·拉奇茨基：……
these decisions actualized.
这些决定得以实现。
Is there anything more there for, because difficult conversations are difficult.
还有什么可以做的吗，因为困难的对话很困难。
How do we help people make them less difficult?
我们如何帮助人们减少困难？
Any tips?
有什么建议吗？
Rachel Lockett: Yeah.
雷切尔·洛克特：是的。
Well, first of all, difficult conversations makes you want to run away.
嗯，首先，困难的谈话会让你想要逃跑。
The marketing on conflict is poor, so I want to reframe that.
关于冲突的营销很差，所以我想重新构建它。
My belief is when we feel internally ambivalent, we have two inner parts at war.
我的信念是，当我们内心感到矛盾时，我们内心的两个部分就会发生冲突。
And there's something really beautiful and important to pay attention to, there's something to learn, when we have ambivalence.
当我们有矛盾心理时，有一些非常美丽和重要的东西值得关注，有一些东西值得学习。
When we are in conflict, something important is at stake.
当我们陷入冲突时，某些重要的事情就处于危险之中。
We care deeply about what we're building, about the person that's letting us down.
我们非常关心我们正在建造的东西，以及那些让我们失望的人。
So the reason it's hard, is because there's such an emotional component to it.
所以它之所以困难，是因为它有如此多的情感成分。
And there's something to learn from it.
从中我们可以学到一些东西。
Rachel Lockett: So first, I want leaders who are listening to think, "This is hard, because I have something to learn here, and because it matters.
雷切尔·洛基特：首先，我希望倾听的领导者能够思考：“这很难，因为我在这里需要学习一些东西，而且这很重要。
So instead of avoiding it and running away, I'm going to lean into this moment.
因此，我不会逃避它并逃跑，而是会专注于这一刻。
And I'm going to come out of it not just having solved this dynamic, and not just having said my piece, but having built a skill." The reason I focus on interpersonal dynamics is because the quality of our relationships determines the quality of our life.
我将不仅仅是解决这个问题，不仅仅是说出我的观点，而是培养一种技能。”我之所以关注人际关系动态，是因为我们的关系质量决定了我们的生活质量。
I really believe that.
我真的相信这一点。
And if you cannot have conflict, you can't have healthy relationships.
如果你不能发生冲突，你就不可能拥有健康的关系。
We are going to disagree with the people we love, or care about, or are building a business with.
我们可能会与我们所爱的人、关心的人或正在合作的人产生分歧。
So first, I just want listeners to reframe ambivalence and interpersonal challenge, think of them as a growth opportunity.
首先，我只是希望听众重新定义矛盾心理和人际挑战，将其视为成长机会。
Rachel Lockett: Second, there is always something that we're doing to contribute to the conflict, even if it feels like the other person is insane, and is driving us crazy, and we're the innocent party.
雷切尔·洛基特：其次，我们所做的事情总是会加剧冲突，即使感觉对方疯了，让我们发疯，而我们是无辜的一方。
So entering any conflict conversation with humility, and curiosity about the other person's experience, is critical to setting the table for a commitment to come out better and stronger.
因此，以谦逊的态度和对他人经历的好奇心来进行任何冲突对话，对于为更好、更强的承诺奠定基础至关重要。
So no model, NVC or otherwise, can fix a person who's coming in rigid and full of blame.
因此，无论是非暴力沟通还是其他任何模式，都无法纠正一个僵化且充满责备的人。
I really love the 15 Commitments to Conscious Leaders, I don't know if you know that book, but one of the concepts is about taking a hundred percent responsibility.
我真的很喜欢《对有意识的领导者的15条承诺》，我不知道你是否知道这本书，但其中一个概念是关于承担百分百的责任。
Not being in the world of blame, being a victim, or being a hero.
不要处于责备的世界，不要成为受害者，也不要成为英雄。
And I see many leaders, when they're in a challenging interpersonal conflict, being in victimhood, being in blame, or being in hero.
我看到很多领导者，当他们处于具有挑战性的人际冲突中时，他们要么是受害者，要么是被指责的人，要么是英雄的人。
"I'm just going to do it for them, and forget it.
“我只是为他们做这件事，然后就忘了吧。
They're having such a hard time getting this done, I'm just going to do it."
他们很难完成这件事，我就去做吧。”
Rachel Lockett: Instead, take responsibility for your part.
雷切尔·洛基特：相反，为你的部分负责。
"What is my piece in making this dynamic happen and how can I address it?"
“我的职责是什么，让这种动态发生？我该如何解决这个问题？”
Lenny Rachitsky: That makes me think about, Jerry Colonna was on the podcast, and he has this famous line that I've always remembered.
Lenny Rachitsky：这让我想到，杰里·科隆纳（Jerry Colonna）在播客上，他有一句我一直记得的著名台词。
How are you complicit in creating the conditions that you claim you don't want?
您如何同谋创造您声称不想要的条件？
Rachel Lockett: Yes, I love that.
雷切尔·洛克特：是的，我喜欢这个。
Love that question.
喜欢这个问题。
Lenny Rachitsky: And there's so many, there's three parts to that whole question, I won't get into it.
Lenny Rachitsky：整个问题有很多，分为三个部分，我不会详细讨论。
But what you're sharing here is, think about that, figure out how, because your point is, you're always somehow complicit in creating the issue you're complaining about.
但你在这里分享的是，想一想，弄清楚如何，因为你的观点是，你总是以某种方式串通一气地制造你所抱怨的问题。
And use that to help kind of put down the defense of the person like, "Here's what I've contributed to this problem." Do you use the nonviolent communication framework?
并用它来帮助放下对人的辩护，例如，“这就是我对这个问题的贡献。”您使用非暴力沟通框架吗？
And I don't know, is that just a general way of trying to have difficult conversations, or is there not a framework?
我不知道，这只是尝试进行困难对话的一般方法，还是没有一个框架？
Rachel Lockett: Yeah, no, I think that's a great framework for when you want to go interact with someone around something that's not working for you.
Rachel Lockett：是的，不，我认为当你想与某人围绕不适合你的事情进行互动时，这是一个很好的框架。
I think typically a difficult conversation arises because some feelings are coming up for you, and you have a need that's not being met.
我认为，通常会出现一场困难的对话，因为你会产生一些感受，而你的需求没有得到满足。
And so, that's the instigator to know, "Okay, I need to talk to this person.
所以，这就是知道的煽动者，“好吧，我需要和这个人谈谈。
We need to clear this up."
我们需要澄清这一点。”
Rachel Lockett: For example, I was working with a CEO whose co-founder was constantly undercutting his decisions, and criticizing him.
雷切尔·洛克特：例如，我曾与一位首席执行官合作，他的联合创始人不断削弱他的决定并批评他。
And there was something happening, where they'd gone from being this great dynamic duo, fundraised, hired a few leaders, and then all of a sudden he was getting daggers thrown at him all the time.
然后发生了一些事情，他们不再是这个伟大的充满活力的二人组，筹集资金，聘请了一些领导者，然后突然之间，他一直受到匕首的攻击。
And it was exhausting, and frustrating, and confusing.
这让人筋疲力尽、令人沮丧、令人困惑。
That was a time where he used NVC to address, "What is happening, here?" And it turned out that the co-founder was really frustrated with how he was spending his time.
当时他使用 NVC 来解决“这里发生了什么事？”事实证明，这位联合创始人对自己如何度过自己的时间感到非常沮丧。
He didn't want him to be off selling, he wanted him to be helping him with product vision.
他不想让他停止销售，他希望他能帮助他进行产品愿景。
And they had a totally different conception of how the CEO should be spending his time.
对于首席执行官应该如何度过自己的时间，他们有着完全不同的看法。
Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
Just remind folks of the NVC framework, because this is the thing that's hard in the moment.
只是提醒人们注意 NVC 框架，因为这是目前最困难的事情。
Like, "Oh, what should I be saying?" Observe, feelings, needs, request.
就像，“哦，我应该说什么？”观察、感受、需要、请求。
Rachel Lockett: Yeah, exactly.
雷切尔·洛克特：是的，完全正确。
And there's a nonviolent communication book, if folks are into the framework, and want to check it out.
如果人们对这个框架感兴趣并且想要查看的话，还有一本非暴力沟通的书。
Lenny Rachitsky: People need a little...
莱尼·拉奇茨基：人们需要一点……
Who was it, you said one of your client's tattooed the vision he had, on-
是谁，你说你的一位客户把他的愿景纹在了身上——
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, there's, let's just get something.
Lenny Rachitsky：好吧，我们去拿点东西吧。
Rachel Lockett: It doesn't have a good acronym.
Rachel Lockett：它没有一个好的缩写词。
You could just print it out, and put it right next to your screen, or something-
你可以把它打印出来，然后把它放在你的屏幕旁边，或者其他什么地方——
Lenny Rachitsky: No tattoos.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：没有纹身。
I just want to highlight the first point you made in this answer, of having difficult conversations.
我只是想强调你在这个答案中提出的第一点，即进行困难的对话。
And then I have one more question for you.
然后我还有一个问题要问你。
Just this point about, if there's something you're afraid of, that is a sign you should do that.
就这一点来说，如果有什么事情你害怕，那就是你应该这样做的信号。
There's a quote I often think of.
有一句话我经常想起。
"The cave you fear contains the treasure you seek." And the advice there is just, the thing you're afraid of is a compass too, the thing you should do.
“你害怕的洞穴里藏着你寻找的宝藏。”那里的建议就是，你害怕的东西也是指南针，你应该做的事情。
Because there's something important there.
因为那里有重要的东西。
Rachel Lockett: I love that.
雷切尔·洛克特：我喜欢这个。
Yeah.
是的。
It's like, "What's important here?
就像，“这里重要的是什么？
What do I have to learn here?" Is a question you can ask yourself when you're avoiding something.
我在这里要学什么？”当你回避某件事时，你可以问自己一个问题。
I often see this in talent management situations.
我经常在人才管理情况中看到这种情况。
A CEO has an underperforming COO.
首席执行官的首席运营官表现不佳。
They're avoiding a conversation, because they keep getting let down, and actually they kind of know deep down, this is not working out.
他们避免谈话，因为他们总是感到失望，实际上他们内心深处知道，这是行不通的。
They don't want to face it.
他们不想面对它。
It's too much work.
工作量太大了。
They need to just keep plowing forward.
他们需要继续努力前进。
Rachel Lockett: And when we really take space to think about their feelings and needs, they realize, I ask them, "Would you enthusiastically rehire this person for the same role?" Which is the question we always asked at Stripe.
雷切尔·洛克特：当我们真正花时间思考他们的感受和需求时，他们意识到，我问他们，“你会热情地重新雇用这个人担任同样的角色吗？”这是我们在 Stripe 经常问的问题。
And when the answer is no to that, no matter how many difficult conversations you have, this is not going to work.
当答案是否定的时候，无论你们有多少困难的对话，这都是行不通的。
So then you have to take action.
那么你必须采取行动。
And even engaging in the hard conversation, and seeing what happens, can lead you to the clarity that you need to take action on talent that's not working.
即使进行艰苦的对话，看看会发生什么，也能让你清楚地认识到，你需要对不起作用的人才采取行动。
Lenny Rachitsky: That is a really cool tip.
Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个非常酷的建议。
I did not know Stripe operated that way.
我不知道 Stripe 是这样运作的。
We had the CTO of Netflix on the podcast, Elizabeth Stone, and this is very much how they operate.
Netflix 的首席技术官伊丽莎白·斯通 (Elizabeth Stone) 负责播客，这就是他们的运作方式。
They're always asking a question like that.
他们总是问这样的问题。
The way you phrased it was, "Would I enthusiastically rehire this person for the same role?"
你的措辞是：“我会热情地重新雇用这个人担任同样的角色吗？”
Rachel Lockett: Exactly.
雷切尔·洛克特：没错。
It's very clarifying, because it's binary.
这非常清楚，因为它是二进制的。
People have a physical sense, just like we talked about a full body yes, before?
人有身体感觉，就像我们之前谈到的完整的身体一样，是吗？
You have a immediate reaction that is honest, to that question, that provides clarity.
对于这个问题，你会立即做出诚实的反应，这会提供清晰的答案。
Lenny Rachitsky: And the answer isn't, if it's no, it's not, "Fire them." It's, "You need to do something about it." It could be talk to them about it, put them on a performance plan, put them in a different role.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：答案不是，如果不是的话，也不是“解雇他们”。它是，“你需要为此做点什么。”可以与他们讨论这个问题，为他们制定绩效计划，让他们扮演不同的角色。
It doesn't mean you have to fire them immediately, so it's not necessarily as scary as it sounds, if you say no.
这并不意味着你必须立即解雇他们，所以如果你拒绝，这并不一定像听起来那么可怕。
Rachel Lockett: Yeah, I think that also it depends on the stage of business you're in.
雷切尔·洛克特：是的，我认为这也取决于您所处的业务阶段。
So I see a lot of companies build a leadership team, and then a year later, the size and stage of their business is dramatically different.
所以我看到很多公司建立了一个领导团队，然后一年后，他们的业务规模和阶段就发生了巨大的不同。
And they start to realize, "Oh, the CFO that was really fine back then, is now completely wrong.
他们开始意识到，“哦，当时的 CFO 确实很好，但现在完全错了。
He should be the controller." Okay, great.
他应该是控制者。”好的，太好了。
So reckon with that.
所以要考虑到这一点。
Recognize that in how you're interacting with your current CFO, put out a search.
认识到您与现任首席财务官的互动方式，要进行搜索。
There's many things you can do that aren't firing someone.
您可以做很多事情而不是解雇某人。
But in quickly scaling businesses, it's natural that the leadership team's job will change, and that you'll have to make some evolution over time.
但在快速扩展业务的过程中，领导团队的工作自然会发生变化，并且随着时间的推移，您必须做出一些演变。
Lenny Rachitsky: And I guess it's very important to highlight the importance of operating this way, if you're trying to build a really successful company, is that should be the bar.
Lenny Rachitsky：我想强调这种运营方式的重要性非常重要，如果你想建立一家真正成功的公司，那就应该是酒吧。
Is, if you would not enthusiastically rehire this person for this role.
是，如果您不热情地重新雇用此人担任此职位。
If you're trying to build something that's never been built before, and build a company that actually works out really well, you need to really only have people around that are hitting that bar.
如果你想建立一些以前从未建立过的东西，并建立一家实际上运作良好的公司，那么你只需要周围只有达到这个标准的人。
Rachel Lockett: Yeah.
雷切尔·洛克特：是的。
My perspective, I talked at the beginning about how I'm obsessed with the human side of business building, and my belief is that talent and the environment that you put your talent in is everything.
我的观点是，我在一开始就谈到了我如何痴迷于商业建设中人性化的一面，我的信念是人才和发挥人才的环境就是一切。
Yes.
是的。
Building a product and a business is about building something that users need.
构建产品和业务就是构建用户需要的东西。
It's about product market fit, and then the wave you're on.
这是关于产品市场契合度，然后是你所处的浪潮。
Timing is important.
时机很重要。
You're going to build a different size business, if you're in a sector that's not growing, than right now, if you're in the middle of AI.
如果你处于一个没有增长的行业，那么你将建立一个不同规模的企业，而不是现在，如果你处于人工智能领域。
True.
真的。
You're riding a timing wave, and you're solving a core need.
您正在乘风破浪，并且正在解决核心需求。
But everything besides that is so human.
但除此之外的一切都是如此人性化。
It's about talent, and it's about the environment that you put that talent in.
这与人才有关，也与发挥人才的环境有关。
So you need to create the conditions such that your talent can thrive.
因此，您需要创造条件，让您的才能得以蓬勃发展。
Lenny Rachitsky: Such a simple concept, that I think people overlook, is just everything you do is going to be the people that you have around you, and the environment you create for them to operate.
Lenny Rachitsky：这样一个简单的概念，我认为人们忽视了，就是你所做的一切都是为了你周围的人，以及你为他们创造的运作环境。
I think your point about when you're doing something difficult, just to close out this element, I love this idea that if it feels hard, think of it as a learning opportunity.
我认为你的观点是，当你在做一些困难的事情时，只是为了结束这个元素，我喜欢这个想法，如果感觉很难，就把它当作一个学习机会。
I think anyone listening to this is like, "Oh, cool, I'm going to learn something.
我想任何听到这个的人都会说，“哦，酷，我要学点东西。
I'm going to get better." It's such a easier, more motivating way of approaching something that's difficult.
我会好起来的。”这是一种更容易、更有动力的方式来处理困难的事情。
Rachel Lockett: And I want to make a distinction between that and what we talked about earlier, which was, lean into your strengths.
雷切尔·洛基特：我想把它和我们之前讨论的区分开来，那就是发挥你的优势。
Because I don't believe people should suffer through the day grinding, doing work that's depleting.
因为我不认为人们应该忍受日复一日的磨难，做一些消耗体力的工作。
That's not a learning opportunity.
这不是一个学习机会。
Interpersonally, when you're avoiding something, it's because you care about something.
在人际交往中，当你回避某件事时，那是因为你关心某件事。
Avoiding your emotions is what I want to encourage people against.
我想鼓励人们反对避免情绪化。
We have to feel our feelings all the way through, be present to our feelings, and interact with others in a way that acknowledges our feelings.
我们必须自始至终感受我们的感受，面对我们的感受，并以承认我们感受的方式与他人互动。
That's what I want to encourage, because actually that's not deadening, that's enlivening.
这就是我想鼓励的，因为实际上这并不是沉闷的，而是充满活力的。
And there's learning there.
那里有学习。
Lenny Rachitsky: A final area I want to spend a little time on is, something that I've heard from everybody that you work with, which is the way that you help them operate.
Lenny Rachitsky：我想花一点时间讨论的最后一个领域是，我从与你一起工作的每个人那里听到了一些事情，这就是你帮助他们运作的方式。
So you just talked about the importance of the people you hire and the environment you create for them.
所以您刚才谈到了您雇用的人员以及您为他们创造的环境的重要性。
And something that you help leaders do is create a very specific way of operating around a one-page plan, and how that kind of trickles down and just makes everything at a company more effective.
你帮助领导者做的事情就是围绕一页计划创建一种非常具体的运作方式，以及这种方式如何渗透下来并使公司的一切变得更加有效。
Talk about this one-page plan, how you recommend companies operate with this.
谈谈这个一页的计划，你建议公司如何运用它。
Rachel Lockett: Yeah, thanks for asking that question.
雷切尔·洛克特：是的，谢谢你问这个问题。
I think, typically, companies have complicated the process of aligning their vision, their strategy, their goals, and the way people behave with each other, their values.
我认为，通常情况下，公司将其愿景、战略、目标以及人们彼此的行为方式和价值观的调整过程变得复杂化。
So that all of these things live in different places, are talked about to a different degree, resonate to employees differently.
因此，所有这些事情都存在于不同的地方，以不同的程度被谈论，对员工产生不同的共鸣。
And if you asked anyone at the company, "What are your top three priorities, and how do they relate to the vision?" It's not an easy answer.
如果你问公司里的任何人，“你的三大优先事项是什么，它们与愿景有何关系？”这不是一个简单的答案。
Rachel Lockett: So the reason I like the one-page plan concept is, it's simplifying.
Rachel Lockett：所以我喜欢一页计划概念的原因是，它很简单。
It's a way for the leadership team to come together and align around, " What are we doing here?
这是领导团队聚集在一起并协调一致的一种方式，“我们在这里做什么？
What is our role in it?
我们在其中扮演什么角色？
And how do we communicate it, so that the whole company has clarity, and knows how the work they're doing ladders up to our big picture vision that we're all committed to?"
我们如何传达这一点，以便整个公司都清楚，并知道他们正在做的工作如何逐步实现我们都致力于实现的大局愿景？”
Rachel Lockett: So I actually got this idea of the one-page plan from Alpine Investors.
Rachel Lockett：所以我实际上是从 Alpine Investors 那里得到了一页计划的想法。
They have something called the People First Operating Rhythm, and they've successfully implemented that at their portfolio companies.
他们有一种叫做“以人为本的运营节奏”的理念，并且已经在其投资组合公司中成功实施了这一理念。
And I work in concert with Alpine, so I work with some of their portfolio CEOs.
我与 Alpine 合作，因此我与他们的一些投资组合首席执行官合作。
To execute this rhythm.
来执行这个节奏。
So it's not just about a one-page plan.
所以这不仅仅是一页纸的计划。
It puts your vision and your values on the first column, your strategic intentions and your KPIs on the second column, your annual goals on the third, and your quarterly goals on the fourth.
它将您的愿景和价值观放在第一列，将您的战略意图和关键绩效指标放在第二列，将年度目标放在第三列，将季度目标放在第四列。
So that no matter what you're talking about, in terms of, "What are we doing for the next year, or the next quarter?
因此，无论您在谈论什么，“我们明年或下个季度要做什么？
How do we prioritize?" It's always in tandem with your core KPIs, your strategy, and your vision.
我们如何确定优先顺序？”它始终与您的核心 KPI、战略和愿景保持一致。
Rachel Lockett: And I love how they instituted that with their portfolio, and I saw the power of it.
Rachel Lockett：我喜欢他们在投资组合中建立这一点的方式，我看到了它的力量。
They've collected some data that their portfolio companies that actually institute the People First Operating Rhythm result in higher returns.
他们收集了一些数据，表明他们的投资组合公司真正实行以人为本的运营节奏会带来更高的回报。
So they're very committed to this strategy, and after operating with CEOs in their rhythm, I took some of those ideas and started to help other founders and other leaders with some of the same concepts, in my own way.
因此，他们非常致力于这一战略，在按照他们的节奏与首席执行官合作之后，我采用了其中的一些想法，并开始以我自己的方式帮助其他创始人和其他领导者采用一些相同的概念。
Lenny Rachitsky: We're going to hopefully link to a template of this one-page plan?
Lenny Rachitsky：我们希望链接到这个一页计划的模板吗？
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, so let's do that.
Lenny Rachitsky：好的，我们就这么做吧。
And then, what kind of impact do you see from companies starting to operate this way to motivate people to do this?
然后，您认为公司开始以这种方式运营以激励人们这样做会产生什么样的影响？
Rachel Lockett: Yeah.
雷切尔·洛克特：是的。
What I see is clarity and alignment.
我看到的是清晰度和一致性。
And I also see more connection.
我还看到了更多的联系。
So I want to name that it's not just about having a plan, it's about how you create it, how you reflect on it, and how you come together around it to celebrate wins.
所以我想说，这不仅仅是制定计划，还在于如何制定计划、如何反思计划以及如何围绕计划聚集在一起庆祝胜利。
Rachel Lockett: So in my opinion, a very under- attended to part of building a business is an operating rhythm.
Rachel Lockett：所以在我看来，在创建企业的过程中，一个非常被忽视的部分是运营节奏。
When do you come together to kick off the year, and share your strategy and vision again, and talk about the goals?
你们什么时候聚在一起开始新的一年，再次分享你们的战略和愿景，并讨论目标？
When do you come together to reflect on what's working and not working, and how do you do that?
你们什么时候聚在一起反思什么是有效的、什么是无效的？你们是如何做到的？
And in what groups?
以及哪些群体？
And are you honest, or are you just kind of doing it as a quick exercise to move on to what's pressing?
你是诚实的，还是只是将其作为一种快速练习，以继续处理紧迫的事情？
Rachel Lockett: So just like I said in co-founder dynamics, a key is to step out of the dance floor and to get onto the balcony.
Rachel Lockett：就像我在联合创始人动态中所说的那样，关键是走出舞池并走上阳台。
Executive teams leading a complex business need time away from being in the business to work on the business.
领导复杂业务的执行团队需要时间离开业务来处理业务。
So around this one-page plan, the reason I like a rhythm, is you can kick off the year with the plan.
因此，围绕这个一页的计划，我喜欢节奏的原因是你可以用该计划开始新的一年。
That's really simple, easy to understand.
这真的很简单，很容易理解。
Everyone can have it accessible and every quarter, you can get together to reflect, "What worked, what didn't work?"
每个人都可以使用它，每个季度，您都可以聚在一起思考“什么有效，什么无效？”
Rachel Lockett: I really like the question, "What's an inconvenient truth?" Air the things that need to be talked about, that no one's talking about because you're too busy.
雷切尔·洛克特：我真的很喜欢这个问题，“什么是难以忽视的事实？”传播那些因为你太忙而没有人谈论的需要谈论的事情。
That's the power of combining a simple plan, whether it's one page or not, that aligns you from the top to the bottom, your vision all the way down to your quarterly goals.
这就是组合一个简单计划的力量，无论它是否是一页，它使您从上到下、您的愿景一直到您的季度目标保持一致。
And a time where you stop, pause, discuss, reflect, have a little spacious energy.
一个你停下来、暂停、讨论、反思、拥有一点宽敞能量的时间。
Rachel Lockett: It's not unlike what you said about your own time.
雷切尔·洛克特：这与你所说的你自己的时代没有什么不同。
You are the executive team.
你们是执行团队。
You want a little bit of spacious time to tinker, reflect, create, and come back to the meaningful work you're doing more energized.
您需要一点宽敞的时间来修补、反思、创造，然后更加精力充沛地回到您正在做的有意义的工作中。
And leadership teams need that too.
领导团队也需要这一点。
Lenny Rachitsky: Wait, Alpine Investors, Graham Weaver.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：等等，阿尔卑斯投资者，格雷厄姆·韦弗。
He was on the podcast.
他在播客上。
Lenny Rachitsky: I love that.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢这个。
Okay, final, final question.
好吧，最后一个问题。
I want to take us to AI corner before we get to the very exciting lighting round.
在我们进入非常令人兴奋的灯光回合之前，我想先带我们去人工智能角。
I'm going to do kind of a tweaked version.
我要做一个调整版本。
Usually I ask people just, how has AI impacted their work and life?
通常我只是问人们，人工智能如何影响他们的工作和生活？
I guess that is the question here, just how has AI changed, I guess coaching, as a coach?
我想这就是问题所在，人工智能如何改变，我猜是教练，作为教练？
But also just, from a client's perspective, how are people using AI to help them in their, I guess life, from a coaching perspective?
但同时，从客户的角度来看，从教练的角度来看，人们如何使用人工智能来帮助他们的生活？
Rachel Lockett: Yeah, it's a great question.
雷切尔·洛克特：是的，这是一个很好的问题。
So as a coach, I use AI in a couple of key ways, that I'm grateful for.
因此，作为一名教练，我在几个关键方面使用人工智能，我对此表示感谢。
One, I use Granola, which I saw you give away to your listeners.
一，我用格兰诺拉麦片，我看到你把它送给了你的听众。
Lenny Rachitsky: One free year of Granola, for becoming an annual subscriber of Lenny's Newsletter, lennysnewsletter.com.
Lenny Rachitsky：成为 Lenny's Newsletter (lennysnewsletter.com) 的年度订阅者，即可免费获得一年格兰诺拉麦片。
There you go.: So I use Granola to take notes in our session so I can be fully present with my clients, and I can give them a synthesis of what happened and the next steps they committed to after our session.
就这样。：所以我在我们的会议中使用格兰诺拉麦片做笔记，这样我就可以充分地呈现在我的客户面前，我可以向他们提供所发生的事情的综合以及他们在会议后承诺的后续步骤。
I also use it, I put them in a folder for every client, and so I can look at insights across our work together.
我也使用它，我将它们放在每个客户的文件夹中，这样我就可以一起查看我们工作中的见解。
What are the deeper things that are happening?
正在发生哪些更深层次的事情？
What are the patterns that are taking place?
正在发生什么模式？
I have these in my head, but actually it's a great tool, to see over time.
我脑子里有这些，但实际上它是一个很好的工具，可以随着时间的推移看到。
"Oh yeah, we talked about that in our first session.
“哦，是的，我们在第一次会议上讨论过这个问题。
Let's bring that back, because that's what you're struggling with now." So it helps me create the kind of transformation that I want for all my clients.
让我们把它带回来，因为这就是你现在所苦苦挣扎的。”因此，它帮助我为所有客户创造了我想要的转变。
There you go.: Secondly, I just use ChatGPT to help me plan my retreats.
就是这样。：其次，我只是使用 ChatGPT 来帮助我计划我的静修。
I run a women's organization, and we have eight retreats a year, and it's a great tool to think expansively about new activities.
我经营一个妇女组织，我们每年有八次务虚会，这是一个很好的工具，可以广泛地思考新活动。
Once I've gotten the core objectives down, and I have a bunch of ideas about what I want to do, it gives me new creative ideas.
一旦我确定了核心目标，并且我对自己想做的事情有了很多想法，它就会给我带来新的创意。
So I can put in like, "Here's my objective, here's my goal, here's my audience, here's my last retreat that I ran.
所以我可以这样说：“这是我的目标，这是我的目标，这是我的观众，这是我跑的最后一次静修。
I kind of want three new ideas for this session." So it'll give me creative energy that I otherwise would need to get together with other coaches to discuss.
我想为这次会议提出三个新想法。”所以它会给我创造力，否则我需要与其他教练聚在一起讨论。
And I do that, too.
我也这样做。
There you go.: Finally, I'm experimenting with AI in a way to support my clients between sessions.
就是这样。：最后，我正在尝试使用人工智能来在会话之间为我的客户提供支持。
So I've gotten some feedback from my clients that they would like more interaction between our sessions, and they're always allowed to email me, or text me.
因此，我从客户那里得到了一些反馈，他们希望我们的会议之间有更多的互动，并且他们总是可以给我发电子邮件或发短信。
I'm available to them.
我可以为他们服务。
But I think they want to be really respectful of my time, and so some people do reach out and ask me questions, and other people wait for our session.
但我认为他们希望真正尊重我的时间，所以有些人确实主动向我提问，而其他人则等待我们的会议。
There you go.: So I'm curious about the future of coaching, how in between sessions, clients can get access to more of an AI support, where the bot has all of their context, their development plan that we create at the beginning.
就这样吧。：所以我对教练的未来很好奇，在课程之间，客户如何获得更多的人工智能支持，机器人拥有他们所有的背景信息，我们在开始时创建的他们的发展计划。
So that's their goals, for our work together, how they want to grow.
这就是他们的目标，我们共同努力，他们希望如何成长。
Some of my core frameworks, and my beliefs, and my training.
我的一些核心框架、我的信仰和我的训练。
And the Granola notes from all of our sessions, so that they can access between, just some extra spot support.
我们所有会议中的格兰诺拉麦片笔记，以便他们可以在之间访问，只是一些额外的现场支持。
They're going into this conversation, how should they approach it?
他们将要进行这场对话，他们应该如何进行？
They're anxious about this team meeting.
他们对这次团队会议感到焦虑。
How can they make the most of it?
他们怎样才能充分利用它？
More tactical support.
更多的战术支持。
I see personal coaching as still critical for, "What is your vision of your life?
我认为个人辅导对于“你的人生愿景是什么？
How do you want to shift your core behavior to align with that vision?" But then, AI can play a real helpful role in between, on the tactics.
您希望如何改变您的核心行为以符合这一愿景？”但是，人工智能可以在战术上发挥真正的帮助作用。
Lenny Rachitsky: That is super cool.
Lenny Rachitsky：那太酷了。
So that's something you already do, where they have access to this kind of GPT-
所以这就是你已经做的事情，他们可以访问这种 GPT-
Rachel Lockett: It's something I'm building right now.
Rachel Lockett：这是我现在正在构建的东西。
Rachel Lockett: My clients don't have that yet.
Rachel Lockett：我的客户还没有。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。
That is great.
那太好了。
That is a really good idea.
这真是个好主意。
It's not replacing coaching and therapists, let's say, but it's adding a lot more in-between time where you could just talk to us, based on everything you've talked about, all the frameworks that you use.
可以说，它并没有取代教练和治疗师，但它增加了更多的中间时间，你可以根据你所谈论的一切和你使用的所有框架与我们交谈。
That is extremely cool.
这太酷了。
All right.
好的。
There's a billion-dollar company coming.
一家价值数十亿美元的公司即将到来。
Lenny Rachitsky: Rachel, is there anything else that you want to share or leave listeners with, before we get to our very exciting lightning round?
Lenny Rachitsky：Rachel，在我们开始激动人心的闪电回合之前，您还有什么想与听众分享或留给听众的吗？
Rachel Lockett: What I want to share is that the world is getting more lonely.
雷切尔·洛克特：我想分享的是，世界变得越来越孤独。
There's a lot of research on this, but it's also obvious in my coaching sessions, that people feel more alienated from one another.
关于这一点有很多研究，但在我的辅导课程中也很明显，人们感觉彼此更加疏远。
And actually, building businesses is an inherently human endeavor.
事实上，创建企业本质上是人类的努力。
So I am a fan of this AI boom, I appreciate that we have more technology at our fingertips than ever before.
所以我是人工智能热潮的粉丝，我很感激我们比以往任何时候都拥有更多的技术。
But I want to encourage listeners to think of themselves as leaders who bring humans together to self-actualize, and that they have to actively overcome the default state, which is blind, grind, and loneliness.
但我想鼓励听众将自己视为将人类聚集在一起实现自我的领导者，并且他们必须积极克服默认状态，即盲目、磨砺和孤独。
So I think this is a call to action for your listeners, to connect with the people around them, lead healthier teams, create environments where connection is inevitable.
所以我认为这是对听众的行动呼吁，与周围的人建立联系，领导更健康的团队，创造不可避免的联系环境。
And that they will have more fun, and build better businesses, because of that.
因此，他们会获得更多乐趣，并建立更好的业务。
Lenny Rachitsky: What a beautiful way to end it.
Lenny Rachitsky：多么美妙的结束方式啊。
With that, we've reached our very exciting lightning round.
至此，我们进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。
I've got five questions for you.
我有五个问题要问你。
Are you ready?
你准备好了吗？
Lenny Rachitsky: First question, what are two or three books that you find yourself recommending most to other people?
Lenny Rachitsky：第一个问题，您发现自己最向其他人推荐的两三本书是什么？
Rachel Lockett: One of them I said before, The 15 Commitments of Conscious Leaders.
雷切尔·洛克特：我之前说过其中之一，有意识的领导者的 15 项承诺。
And I love Designing Your Life, by Bill Burnett.
我喜欢比尔·伯内特的《设计你的生活》。
Lenny Rachitsky: I love that book, too.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：我也喜欢那本书。
People don't talk about that book enough.
人们对那本书的谈论还不够。
Next question.
下一个问题。
Favorite recent movie or TV show you really enjoyed?
您最近最喜欢的电影或电视节目是？
Rachel Lockett: Oh, God.
雷切尔·洛克特：哦，上帝。
I just went to KPop Demon Hunters with my daughter.
我刚刚和女儿一起去了 KPop Demon Hunters。
It's so embarrassing, but that's what we dressed as for Halloween, like everyone else in the world.
这太尴尬了，但这就是我们万圣节的打扮，就像世界上其他人一样。
Lenny Rachitsky: I have not seen that.
Lenny Rachitsky：我还没有看到。
I hear everyone talking about it.
我听到每个人都在谈论它。
I am going to try to avoid it, I think.
我想我会尽力避免它。
Next question.
下一个问题。
Favorite product you have recently discovered that you really love?
您最近发现自己真正喜欢的最喜欢的产品？
Could be an app, could be a gadget, could be clothes.
可以是一个应用程序，可以是一个小工具，可以是衣服。
Rachel Lockett: I've been recording trainings on Loom for some of my clients that are, it's a scaled holding company, so I'm able to scale training in a really human, connected way.
Rachel Lockett：我一直在为我的一些客户录制 Loom 上的培训，这是一家规模化的控股公司，因此我能够以一种真正人性化、互联的方式扩展培训。
Lenny Rachitsky: Do you have a favorite life motto that you often come back to, in work or in life?
Lenny Rachitsky：在工作或生活中，您有最喜欢、经常回顾的人生格言吗？
Rachel Lockett: I have a quote that is on my desk.
雷切尔·洛克特：我桌上有一句话。
And I love it.
我喜欢它。
Ready?
准备好？
"If you can see your path laid out in front of you, step by step, it's not your path.
“如果你看到你的路一步一步地展现在你面前，那它就不是你的路。
Your own path, you make with every step you take.
你自己的路，你迈出的每一步都在走。
That's why it's your path." That's a Joseph Campbell quote.
这就是为什么这是你的道路。”这是约瑟夫·坎贝尔的名言。
Lenny Rachitsky: Beautiful.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：美丽。
Final question.
最后一个问题。
You've got two kids, you said.
你有两个孩子，你说。
Do you have any favorite children's books that you most love reading to them, that they've loved most?
您有没有最喜欢的儿童读物，您最喜欢读给他们听，他们也最喜欢？
Rachel Lockett: Oh my gosh.
雷切尔·洛基特：天哪。
So my daughter is really into Roald Dahl.
所以我女儿真的很喜欢罗尔德·达尔。
I love Roald Dahl, because he's completely irreverent, and he has a crazy imagination.
我喜欢罗尔德·达尔，因为他完全不敬，而且他有疯狂的想象力。
So we've been reading Witches, Matilda, all of his books.
所以我们一直在读《女巫》、《玛蒂尔达》以及他所有的书。
And both my kids love it.
我的两个孩子都喜欢它。
So, they're five and seven.
所以，他们分别是五岁和七岁。
Lenny Rachitsky: Have you seen the Wes Anderson stories of his stories, where he takes -
莱尼·拉奇茨基：你看过韦斯·安德森的故事吗，他在哪里——
Rachel Lockett: Some of them, yeah.
雷切尔·洛克特：是的，其中一些。
They're great.
他们很棒。
Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, they're so amazing.
Lenny Rachitsky：是的，他们太棒了。
Oh my God.
我的天啊。
And it's like Roald Dahl is like, I think it's personifying him.
就像罗尔德·达尔一样，我认为这是他的化身。
He's like a character in the story.
他就像故事里的人物一样。
Rachel Lockett: Yeah, he's a character, from what I hear about his life.
雷切尔·洛克特：是的，从我听说的他的生活来看，他是一个有个性的人。
Lenny Rachitsky: Rachel, this was incredible.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：雷切尔，这太不可思议了。
I feel like we've very much accomplished what I set out to do, which is just give people all this advice that they never have access to that, costs tens of thousands of dollars.
我觉得我们已经非常完成了我打算做的事情，那就是向人们提供他们从未获得过的所有建议，花费数万美元。
I think we're going to help a lot of people improve their lives and their careers.
我认为我们将帮助很多人改善他们的生活和职业生涯。
Thank you so much for being here.
非常感谢您来到这里。
Rachel Lockett: Absolutely.
雷切尔·洛克特：当然。
Thanks for having me.
谢谢你有我。
Lenny Rachitsky: I almost forgot to ask you two final questions.
Lenny Rachitsky：我差点忘了问你最后两个问题。
Where can folks find you if they want to reach out, maybe consider working with you?
如果人们想联系您，或者考虑与您合作，可以在哪里找到您？
And how can listeners be useful to you?
听众如何对你有用？
Rachel Lockett: Yeah, find me at lockettcoaching.com, and how can listeners be useful?
Rachel Lockett：是的，请在 lockettcoaching.com 上找到我，听众有何用处？
Listeners should turn towards each other, build great relationships, and send CEOs and co-founders my way if they need coaching.
听众应该互相转向，建立良好的关系，如果首席执行官和联合创始人需要指导，他们应该向我推荐。
Lenny Rachitsky: Thank you so much for being here.
Lenny Rachitsky：非常感谢您来到这里。
Rachel Lockett: Thanks for having me.
雷切尔·洛克特：谢谢你邀请我。
Take care, Lenny.
保重，莱尼。
Bye, everyone.: Thank you so much for listening.
再见，大家：非常感谢您的聆听。
If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.
如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。
Also, please consider giving us a rating, or leaving a review, as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.
另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。
Bye, everyone.: You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.
再见，大家。：您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。
See you in the next episode.
下一集见。