'Building Wiz: the fastest-growing startup in history | Raaz Herzberg (CMO and VP Product Strategy)'
Lenny Rachitsky: You're one of the first 10 employees, you're the first product manager.
Lenny Rachitsky：你是最早的 10 名员工之一，也是第一位产品经理。
It was when you joined, the founders didn't really have an idea figured out yet.
当你加入时，创始人还没有真正想出一个想法。
When they landed on an idea, and then ended up being wrong, ended up not working.
当他们想到一个想法，然后最终发现是错误的，最终无法实现时。
Six weeks after you joined, there was a pivot.
你加入六周后，出现了一个转变。
Raaz Herzberg: At the time, we didn't really have a solid product yet.
Raaz Herzberg：当时，我们还没有真正拥有可靠的产品。
We would have 10 to 15 meetings every day with potential customers.
我们每天都会与潜在客户举行 10 到 15 次会议。
I was hired as the first product manager.
我被聘为第一位产品经理。
I sat in on those calls.
我旁听了这些电话。
Raaz Herzberg: I still did not exactly understand what we were going to build, which was confusing, because I was a product manager, so I was supposed to start building it, and so, at some point, it was like, "I have to ask, what exactly are we doing here?" And that ended up pivoting us around to cloud security.
Raaz Herzberg：我仍然不太明白我们要构建什么，这很令人困惑，因为我是一名产品经理，所以我应该开始构建它，所以，在某些时候，就像是，“我不得不问，我们到底在这里做什么？”这最终使我们转向云安全。
Lenny Rachitsky: So things started to click a little bit more, you started seeing enthusiasm.
Lenny Rachitsky：所以事情开始变得更加顺利，你开始看到热情。
Can you talk about just what that phase was like?
您能谈谈那个阶段是什么样的吗？
Raaz Herzberg: We really felt the type of questions change, right?
Raaz Herzberg：我们确实感觉到问题类型发生了变化，对吗？
Silly.
愚蠢的。
The call sounded like, again, "How are you pricing this, or when can we start doing a POV?" I think naturally, as human beings, you have a bias to look for affirmation, versus a bias for what you don't want to hear.
电话听起来又像是在问“你们如何定价，或者我们什么时候可以开始做 POV？”我认为，作为人类，你自然会倾向于寻求肯定，而不是倾向于你不想听到的东西。
Lenny Rachitsky: You started as an engineer, you moved into product, and now you're marketing, which is not a traditional path.
Lenny Rachitsky：你一开始是一名工程师，后来进入产品领域，现在你开始营销，这不是传统的道路。
Raaz Herzberg: I had a ton to learn about marketing, with what I knew really well, with ...
Raaz Herzberg：我有很多关于营销的知识需要学习，我非常了解……
Lenny Rachitsky: Today, my guest is Raaz Herzberg.
Lenny Rachitsky：今天，我的客人是 Raaz Herzberg。
Raaz is chief marketing officer and VP of product strategy at Wiz.
Raaz 是 Wiz 的首席营销官兼产品战略副总裁。
Before moving into marketing, Raaz was an engineer, and then, for most of her career, was a product manager.
在进入营销领域之前，Raaz 是一名工程师，然后在她职业生涯的大部分时间里担任产品经理。
Prior to Wiz, Raaz led security products in Microsoft, including Azure Sentinel, and with Wiz, moved from VP of product to CMO.
在加入 Wiz 之前，Raaz 负责领导 Microsoft 的安全产品，包括 Azure Sentinel，并在 Wiz 任职期间从产品副总裁晋升为首席营销官。
Lenny Rachitsky: If you haven't heard of Wiz, it's not only the world's fastest growing security company, it's also the fastest growing software company in history, hitting 100 million ARR, just 18 months after founding, and then, just under five years after founding, was rumored to be exploring an acquisition by Google for over $23 billion.
Lenny Rachitsky：如果你没有听说过 Wiz，它不仅是世界上发展最快的安全公司，也是历史上发展最快的软件公司，成立仅 18 个月就达到了 1 亿 ARR，而在成立后不到 5 年，有传言称谷歌正在探索以超过 230 亿美元的价格收购。
Lenny Rachitsky: Even more wild, as you'll hear in our conversation, the team initially went in circles on what they wanted to build.
Lenny Rachitsky：更疯狂的是，正如您在我们的谈话中听到的那样，团队最初在他们想要构建的内容上绕了一圈。
And it took them awhile to actually land on the idea that is basically the most intense product market fit of any B2B company ever.
他们花了一段时间才真正想到这个想法，这基本上是所有 B2B 公司中最适合市场的产品。
Lenny Rachitsky: In our conversation, Raaz shares what signals told her and the team that the original idea wasn't going to work, and that what changed in their conversations, when they finally found product market fit, why she moved into marketing, and what she wished she knew as a product leader from her new marketing lens, also, her perspective on marketing, and what marketing people often get wrong, and why CMOs often fail.
Lenny Rachitsky：在我们的谈话中，Raaz 分享了哪些信号告诉她和团队原来的想法行不通，以及当他们最终找到产品市场契合点时，他们的谈话中发生了什么变化，她为什么进入营销领域，以及她希望作为产品领导者从新的营销视角中了解什么，还有她对营销的看法，营销人员经常犯错的地方，以及 CMO 经常失败的原因。
Also something she calls the dummy explanation.
这也是她所说的“虚拟解释”。
Why you need to pay attention to where the heat is within the organization.
为什么您需要关注组织内热点的位置。
Lenny Rachitsky: She shares her most contrarian take on leadership, and so much more.
Lenny Rachitsky：她分享了她对领导力最逆反的看法，等等。
This was such a fun episode, and there's so much to learn here for product leaders, for marketing leaders, and for founders.
这是非常有趣的一集，对于产品领导者、营销领导者和创始人来说，这里有很多东西需要学习。
Lenny Rachitsky: If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube.
Lenny Rachitsky：如果您喜欢这个播客，请不要忘记订阅并在您最喜欢的播客应用程序或 YouTube 中关注它。
It's the best way to avoid missing feature episodes, and helps the podcast tremendously.
这是避免错过专题节目的最佳方式，并且对播客有很大帮助。
With that, I bring you Raaz Herzberg.
接下来，我为您带来 Raaz Herzberg。
Lenny Rachitsky: Raaz, thank you so much for being here.
Lenny Rachitsky：Raaz，非常感谢你来到这里。
Welcome to the podcast.
欢迎来到播客。
Lenny Rachitsky: So I want to start by giving a little context on Wiz, for folks that aren't super familiar with the company.
Lenny Rachitsky：所以我想首先为那些不太熟悉该公司的人们介绍一下 Wiz 的背景。
You launched just under five years ago, at this point.
你们在不到五年前就推出了这一点。
Within 18 months, you all hit a hundred million ARR, which is the fastest growth rate in history of any software company.
18 个月内，你们的 ARR 都达到了 1 亿，这是软件公司历史上最快的增长率。
It's faster than the two other companies I've had on the podcast, that also claim to be the fastest growing software companies, Deal and Ramp.
它比我在播客上看到的另外两家公司要快，这两家公司也声称是增长最快的软件公司，Deal 和 Ramp。
You guys grew even faster.
你们成长得更快了。
Lenny Rachitsky: I read that you are at over 500 million ARR now.
Lenny Rachitsky：我听说你们现在的 ARR 已经超过 5 亿。
I know it's also not confirmed, but a certain company that rhymes with Loogle, offered to buy you guys for $23 billion, and y'all turned that down, decided to stay private.
我知道这也没有得到证实，但是一家与 Loogle 押韵的公司提出以 230 亿美元收购你们，但你们都拒绝了，决定保持私有状态。
And also, something like 50% of Fortune 100 companies are customers of Wiz.
而且，大约 50% 的财富 100 强公司都是 Wiz 的客户。
Lenny Rachitsky: Is there anything I missed?
Lenny Rachitsky：我错过了什么吗？
Anything I got wrong?
我有什么说错的吗？
Raaz Herzberg: Never heard of that Loogle company, but other than that, yeah.
Raaz Herzberg：从来没有听说过 Loogle 公司，但除此之外，是的。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。
Okay, great.
好的，太好了。
We're going to come back to that.
我们将回到这一点。
What's even crazier is in spite of that, when you joined the company, you were employee, something like, number seven?
更疯狂的是，尽管如此，当你加入公司时，你还是员工，比如第七号？
Raaz Herzberg: Yeah, we kind of started, I feel like, the founders, and the first six, seven employees, we just started at once.
Raaz Herzberg：是的，我觉得我们有点像创始人和前六、七名员工，我们立刻就开始了。
Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by WorkOS.
Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 WorkOS 为您带来。
If you're building a SaaS app, at some point, your customers will start asking for enterprise features like SAML authentication, and SCIM provisioning.
如果您正在构建 SaaS 应用程序，那么您的客户有时会开始要求提供 SAML 身份验证和 SCIM 配置等企业功能。
Lenny Rachitsky: That's where WorkOS comes in, making it fast and painless to add enterprise features to your app.
Lenny Rachitsky：这就是 WorkOS 的用武之地，它可以快速、轻松地将企业功能添加到您的应用程序中。
Their APIs are easy to understand, so that you can ship quickly, and get back to building other features.
他们的 API 易于理解，因此您可以快速交付，然后继续构建其他功能。
Lenny Rachitsky: Today, hundreds of companies are already powered by WorkOS, including ones you probably know, like Vercel, Webflow, and Loom.
Lenny Rachitsky：如今，数百家公司已经由 WorkOS 提供支持，其中包括您可能知道的公司，例如 Vercel、Webflow 和 Loom。
WorkOS also recently acquired Warrant, the fine grain authorization service.
WorkOS 最近还收购了细粒度授权服务 Warrant。
Warrant's product is based on a groundbreaking authorization system called Zanzibar, which was originally designed for Google, to power Google Docs and YouTube.
Warrant 的产品基于名为 Zanzibar 的突破性授权系统，该系统最初是为 Google 设计的，旨在为 Google Docs 和 YouTube 提供支持。
Lenny Rachitsky: This enables fast authorization checks at enormous scale, while maintaining a flexible model that can be adapted, to even the most complex use cases.
Lenny Rachitsky：这可以实现大规模的快速授权检查，同时保持可以适应最复杂用例的灵活模型。
If you're currently looking to build role-based access control, or other enterprise features, like single sign-on SCIM or user management, you should consider WorkOS.
如果您当前正在寻求构建基于角色的访问控制或其他企业功能（例如单点登录 SCIM 或用户管理），您应该考虑 WorkOS。
Lenny Rachitsky: It's a drop-in replacement for Auth-Zero, and supports up to one million monthly active users for free.
Lenny Rachitsky：它是 Auth-Zero 的直接替代品，免费支持多达 100 万月活跃用户。
Check it out at workok.com to learn more.
请访问 workok.com 了解更多信息。
That's workos.com.
那是workos.com。
Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by Rippling, a single platform to build and scale your startup on.
Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 Rippling 为您带来，Rippling 是一个用于构建和扩展您的初创公司的单一平台。
Rippling handles all the "can't get it wrong" admin work of payroll and benefits, giving you back hours every week, but it does a lot more than that.
Rippling 处理所有“不会出错”的工资和福利管理工作，每周为您提供工作时间，但它的作用远不止于此。
Rippling is a game-changer for the entire company, with tools for HR, IT and spend, all built from the ground up, and designed to work together seamlessly.
Rippling 是整个公司的游戏规则改变者，其人力资源、IT 和支出工具全部从头开始构建，旨在无缝协作。
Lenny Rachitsky: Just hired someone?
Lenny Rachitsky：刚刚雇了一个人？
Rippling makes onboarding easy, whether your new hire's sitting next to you, or halfway across the world.
无论您的新员工坐在您旁边，还是远在地球另一端，Rippleing 都可以让入职变得轻松。
In just a few clicks, Rippling automatically generates an offer letter, ships a laptop with the necessary apps and permissions, and even delivers a corporate card.
只需点击几下，Rippling 就会自动生成录取通知书，运送带有必要应用程序和权限的笔记本电脑，甚至还提供公司卡。
Lenny Rachitsky: An employee needs to update their benefits contribution?
Lenny Rachitsky：员工需要更新他们的福利缴款吗？
When they do it in Rippling, that change automatically syncs to payroll.
当他们在 Rippling 中执行此操作时，该更改会自动同步到工资单。
CTO forgot her laptop in an Uber?
CTO 将笔记本电脑忘在 Uber 车里了？
Lock it remotely, with Rippling.
使用 Rippling 远程锁定它。
Lenny Rachitsky: Many startups I've invested in, like Sprig, Elemy and ClassDojo, use Rippling, because it's a force multiplier for lean teams, helping them eliminate major headaches, and operate their business more efficiently.
Lenny Rachitsky：我投资的许多初创公司，如 Sprig、Elemy 和 ClassDojo，都使用 Rippling，因为它对精益团队来说是一个力量倍增器，帮助他们消除主要的麻烦，并更有效地运营业务。
For a limited time, Rippling is giving Lenny's listeners three months off.
在有限的时间内，Rippling 为 Lenny 的听众提供三个月的休息时间。
Lenny Rachitsky: To redeem, visit rippling.com/lenny.
Lenny Rachitsky：要兑换，请访问 rippling.com/lenny。
That's rippling.com/lenny.
那是 ripple.com/lenny。
Okay, so for one of the first 10 employees, you're the first product manager at Wiz.
好的，对于前 10 名员工之一，您是 Wiz 的第一位产品经理。
Lenny Rachitsky: And what I read is that when you joined, the founders didn't really have an idea figured out yet, when they landed on an idea, and it ended up being wrong, ended up not working.
Lenny Rachitsky：我读到的是，当你加入时，创始人还没有真正想出一个想法，当他们想到一个想法时，它最终是错误的，最终不起作用。
Six weeks after you joined, there was a pivot.
你加入六周后，出现了一个转变。
Lenny Rachitsky: So the fact that that was true, and you went from this, "This isn't working," to boom, $100 million dollars AR, I want to spend some time here, because I think there's a lot people can learn here.
Lenny Rachitsky：事实上，这是真的，你从“这不起作用”，到繁荣，1 亿美元的 AR，我想在这里花一些时间，因为我认为这里有很多人可以学到很多东西。
Lenny Rachitsky: So let me just ask, looking back at that point when the idea wasn't working to realizing, "Hey, maybe this is a better idea," what do you remember are some signals that told you this isn't working, and okay, maybe this is, because a lot of founders are in that stage with their products?
Lenny Rachitsky：所以让我问一下，当这个想法不起作用的时候，你会意识到，“嘿，也许这是一个更好的想法”，你还记得哪些信号告诉你这不起作用，好吧，也许这是，因为很多创始人的产品都处于那个阶段？
Raaz Herzberg: When we started, it wasn't even Wiz.
Raaz Herzberg：当我们开始时，甚至不是 Wiz。
The company was literally officially founded as Beyond Networks, because there was this idea of, "Hey, we want to do something in the network security space."
该公司正式成立时的名字是 Beyond Networks，因为有这样的想法：“嘿，我们想在网络安全领域做点什么。”
Raaz Herzberg: Actually, myself and the founding team, and also, the other five engineers that started with us, we actually all came from a background of building cloud security products before, but this time it was like, "Okay, we actually don't want to do cloud security, we want to do network security."
Raaz Herzberg：实际上，我自己和创始团队，还有和我们一起开始的其他五位工程师，我们实际上都来自于之前构建云安全产品的背景，但这次就像是，“好吧，我们实际上不想做云安全，我们想做网络安全。”
Raaz Herzberg: What happened was in those initial few weeks, it also, we started was literally, exactly, Wiz was founded together with COVID.
Raaz Herzberg：发生的事情是在最初的几周内，我们开始的时候确实是，Wiz 是与 COVID 一起成立的。
It was that March when the whole world shut down.
那年三月，全世界都停摆了。
Suddenly, everything went terribly, terribly strange on all of us.
突然间，我们所有人的一切都变得非常非常奇怪。
That's when Wiz started.
那是维兹开始的时候。
Raaz Herzberg: So it was like, our days looked like talking to 10, 15 customers.
Raaz Herzberg：我们的日子就像是在与 10、15 位客户交谈。
Wiz is a B2B product, the buyer is the CISO, the people, the person that owns basically security for the entire company.
Wiz 是一款 B2B 产品，买家是 CISO，即负责整个公司基本安全的人员。
So we would have 10 to 15 meetings every day, with potential customers.
因此，我们每天都会与潜在客户举行 10 到 15 次会议。
Raaz Herzberg: At the time, we didn't really have a solid product yet, but we had an idea, and the deck explaining our idea, and what we're going to build, and why.
Raaz Herzberg：当时，我们还没有真正拥有可靠的产品，但我们有一个想法，并且平台解释了我们的想法，以及我们要构建什么以及为什么。
We were all a very technical group of people, and especially, our founding team, a staff, our CEO at Wiz.
我们都是一群技术性很强的人，尤其是我们的创始团队、员工以及 Wiz 的首席执行官。
Before Wiz, he led the entire division of all of the Microsoft cloud security products.
在 Wiz 之前，他领导了所有 Microsoft 云安全产品的整个部门。
So they're very, very impressive, very technical, very well known and respected in the industry.
所以他们非常非常令人印象深刻，技术含量很高，在业界非常有名并受到尊重。
Raaz Herzberg: And so, we would join a call, and kind of present and walk through our idea, and the person on the other end would be like, "Oh, it sounds interesting.
Raaz Herzberg：因此，我们会加入一个电话会议，展示并阐述我们的想法，另一端的人会说，“哦，这听起来很有趣。
Oh yes, sounds interesting, we'd love to hear more.
哦，是的，听起来很有趣，我们很想听到更多。
Yes, perfect.
是的，完美。
Sounds interesting, we'd love to hear more." And you finished calls with a good feeling, like the person said, "Oh yes, interesting, interesting."
听起来很有趣，我们很想听到更多。”你带着良好的感觉结束了通话，就像那个人说的那样，“哦，是的，有趣，有趣。”
Raaz Herzberg: But like you said, I was hired as a first product manager.
Raaz Herzberg：但就像你说的，我被聘为第一位产品经理。
I sat in on those calls, sometimes officially participating, sometimes, even, not officially participating, but listening on all of the calls, and I finished a couple of weeks of that, which is a lot of calls, I think, two weeks or something.
我旁听了这些电话，有时正式参与，有时甚至没有正式参与，但监听了所有电话，我完成了几周的电话，我想这是很多电话，两周左右。
I still did not exactly understand what we were going to build, which was confusing, because I was a product manager, so I was supposed to start building it, in some ways, go to the dev team and start building it.
我仍然不完全明白我们要构建什么，这很令人困惑，因为我是一名产品经理，所以我应该开始构建它，在某些方面，去开发团队并开始构建它。
And that was a point where I felt like, "I don't know what we are talking about exactly."
那一刻我感觉“我不知道我们到底在说什么”。
Raaz Herzberg: Now, I really thought, "I don't know what we're talking about.
拉兹·赫茨伯格：现在，我真的想，“我不知道我们在说什么。
I thought they all understood what we're building, and I thought every customer we had in the call, understood that we were building." It's just that I did not understand what we were building.
我认为他们都了解我们正在构建的内容，而且我认为通话中的每个客户都了解我们正在构建的内容。”只是我不明白我们在建造什么。
Raaz Herzberg: At some point, it was like, "Okay, I have to ask.
拉兹·赫茨伯格：在某些时候，就像是，“好吧，我必须问。
What exactly are we," like, In the details, right?
我们到底是什么，”就像，在细节上，对吗？
Not in describing a big problem, in a high level, big potential approach to solving it, but what exactly are we doing here?
不是描述一个大问题，而是以一种高水平、大潜力的方法来解决它，但我们到底在做什么？
Raaz Herzberg: And I think that that ended up opening a really deep discussion of, "Okay, wait, maybe we are telling a bit of a broad story, and maybe the person on the other end is not going to tell you." They're not incentivized to tell you, "You know what?
拉兹·赫茨伯格：我认为这最终引发了一场非常深入的讨论，“好吧，等等，也许我们正在讲述一个广泛的故事，也许另一端的人不会告诉你。”他们没有动力告诉你：“你知道吗？
I don't know what you're talking about."
我不知道你在说什么。”
Raaz Herzberg: It's really, I guess they felt a bit like me in some ways, and they were like, "Oh, it's a really smart group of people.
拉兹·赫茨伯格：真的，我想他们在某些方面感觉有点像我，他们就像，“哦，这是一群非常聪明的人。
I'm sure they're building something interesting." So yeah, interesting.
我确信他们正在构建一些有趣的东西。”是的，很有趣。
They're not incentivized to really dig, deep dive into the problems, right?
他们没有动力去真正挖掘、深入研究问题，对吗？
Raaz Herzberg: So I think that opened up a discussion for us, and we kind of understood that we were listening in the wrong way, maybe, that we were looking for positive reinforcements, but not really listening intently to signs of deep enthusiasm, and that ended up pivoting us around to cloud security.
Raaz Herzberg：因此，我认为这为我们开启了一场讨论，我们有点明白我们以错误的方式倾听，也许我们在寻找积极的强化，但没有真正专心倾听深切热情的迹象，这最终使我们转向云安全。
Lenny Rachitsky: There's so much to learn, just from the short story, and I want to get into what you started hearing that made it sound like, "Okay, wait, maybe this is a better idea." But first of all, just the fact that you're doing 10 to 15 calls a day, you said?
莱尼·拉奇茨基：仅仅从这个短篇故事中，就有很多东西需要学习，我想了解一下你开始听到的内容，这听起来像是“好吧，等等，也许这是一个更好的主意。”但首先，你说的是，你每天要打 10 到 15 个电话？
Raaz Herzberg: That was a bit of, in some weird way ...
Raaz Herzberg：这有点奇怪……
Again, Wiz was founded in that terrible March, where the world closed down.
再一次，Wiz 成立于那个可怕的三月，世界陷入瘫痪。
It seemed, at the time, a really bad time to start a company.
当时看来，创办公司的时机非常糟糕。
Markets were frozen, and everything.
市场被冻结了，一切都被冻结了。
Raaz Herzberg: Even my mom, which knows nothing about what exactly I do or why, I mean, I left Microsoft to join Wiz, even my mom was calling me and telling me, "This is not a good time to join a startup." But it ended up being in some ways, like an advantage, because everybody were home.
Raaz Herzberg：即使是我妈妈，她也不知道我到底做什么或为什么，我的意思是，我离开微软加入 Wiz，甚至我妈妈也打电话给我并告诉我，“现在不是加入初创公司的好时机。”但从某些方面来说，这最终成为了一种优势，因为每个人都在家。
Suddenly, everybody were home, no meetings, no travel.
突然间，每个人都在家，没有会议，没有旅行。
Raaz Herzberg: So suddenly, C-Sales, which are busy people, and we started, originally based in Tel Aviv, so we couldn't even fly, but suddenly, it didn't matter.
Raaz Herzberg：突然间，C-Sales 很忙，我们最初的总部设在特拉维夫，所以我们甚至无法飞行，但突然间，这一切都无关紧要了。
Because, I mean, everybody's home.
因为，我的意思是，每个人都在家。
So yeah, we took 10-15 calls a day, back to back to back.
所以，是的，我们每天连续接听 10-15 个电话。
Lenny Rachitsky: I think that alone is a really important lesson of just, that's how you discover something that isn't working/find the thing that is working is, do many, many calls.
Lenny Rachitsky：我认为这本身就是一个非常重要的教训，这就是你如何发现不起作用的东西/找到起作用的东西，做很多很多电话。
Lenny Rachitsky: That is a lot of calls.
Lenny Rachitsky：接到了很多电话。
I don't even know how someone has time to do 10 to 15 calls a day.
我什至不知道有人怎么有时间每天打10到15个电话。
But again, I think that's how you do this.
但我再说一次，我认为你就是这样做的。
So I think that alone is a really important lesson for folks to take away.
所以我认为这一点对于人们来说是一个非常重要的教训。
Lenny Rachitsky: I love this point, that people are going to try to be nice to you, especially if they think you're really smart, and especially if you're describing things that might be helpful to them, but what you're sharing is, you need to not trust, that often is deceiving.
Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢这一点，人们会尽力对你友善，特别是如果他们认为你真的很聪明，特别是如果你描述的事情可能对他们有帮助，但你分享的是，你不需要相信，这通常是欺骗性的。
Lenny Rachitsky: Talk about what it felt when it moved from just, "Oh, this is cool, this is nice, and maybe let's talk more," to, "Oh, maybe this is actually something they'll buy."
Lenny Rachitsky：谈谈当它从“哦，这很酷，这很好，也许我们可以谈谈更多”转变为“哦，也许这实际上是他们会买的东西”时的感受。
Raaz Herzberg: We really felt the type of questions change.
Raaz Herzberg：我们确实感觉到问题类型发生了变化。
Suddenly, the call didn't end, was like, "Oh, this sounds super interesting.
突然，电话没有结束，就像是，“哦，这听起来非常有趣。
Sure, please update me.
当然，请更新我。
I'd love to hear more." Certainly, the call sounded like, "Wait, again, how are you pricing this?
我很想听到更多。”当然，电话听起来就像是，“等等，你是如何定价的？
How much will this cost?" Or, "Wait?
这要花多少钱？”或者，“等等？
When can we start doing a POV?
我们什么时候可以开始做 POV？
How long is a POV?" Or somebody would finish the call, and be like, "Okay, I know exactly who I need to connect you to in my team."
POV 有多长？”或者有人会结束通话，然后说：“好吧，我确切地知道我需要在我的团队中将您与谁联系起来。”
Raaz Herzberg: Those are really strong indications that are the type of indications we learned to look for.
Raaz Herzberg：这些都是非常强烈的迹象，也是我们学会寻找的迹象类型。
Although there's something I think, at the beginning of a company, it's very scary.
虽然有一点我觉得，在公司刚成立的时候，是非常可怕的。
I think naturally, as human beings, you want to get affirmation from the other side.
我想，作为人，自然希望得到对方的肯定。
Raaz Herzberg: So you're actually, you have a bias to look for affirmation, versus a bias to look for what you don't want to hear.
拉兹·赫茨伯格：所以实际上，你有一种寻求肯定的偏见，而不是寻找你不想听到的东西。
That's just natural, being a person.
作为一个人，这很自然。
Raaz Herzberg: So I felt like, that is what we ended up really being in tune with.
Raaz Herzberg：所以我觉得，这就是我们最终真正达成一致的。
"No, I have to understand.
“不，我必须明白。
They're intently interested.
他们非常感兴趣。
They want to connect me to somebody.
他们想把我和某人联系起来。
They want to know how much this costs."
他们想知道这要花多少钱。”
Raaz Herzberg: If somebody just tells you, like you said, "Oh, super cool, yeah, I want to take this as a good sign, but I shouldn't."
Raaz Herzberg：如果有人只是告诉你，就像你说的那样，“哦，超级酷，是的，我想将此视为一个好兆头，但我不应该这样做。”
Lenny Rachitsky: It's almost like you need to see them pushing for the next step is what I'm hearing is, "Let's do a POV, what's the next step to do this?
Lenny Rachitsky：这几乎就像你需要看到他们推动下一步一样，我听到的是，“让我们做一个 POV，下一步是什么？
I want to connect you to this person, to talk further about this," versus just, "Oh yeah, this is awesome.
我想把你和这个人联系起来，进一步讨论这个问题，”而不是只是说，“哦，是的，这太棒了。
Thank you." And then, okay, bye.
谢谢你。”然后，好吧，再见。
Raaz Herzberg: Yeah, exactly.
拉兹·赫茨伯格：是的，完全正确。
And also, in B2B, that is really the process you have to take, after you have to get connected to the actual team that will test the tools, will deploy it.
而且，在 B2B 中，这确实是您必须采取的过程，在您必须连接到将测试工具并部署工具的实际团队之后。
There needs to be real passion about doing something, and I guess that is the difference.
做某事需要有真正的热情，我想这就是区别。
It's real passion about, "Hey, I want this right now."
这是真正的热情，“嘿，我现在就想要这个。”
Lenny Rachitsky: The other point you made is that you were the person, nobody was saying this thing that was this elephant in the room, almost of, "What are we even building?
Lenny Rachitsky：你提出的另一点是，你是那个人，没有人说这件事是房间里的大象，几乎是，“我们到底在建造什么？
I don't understand what's happening here."
我不明白这里发生了什么事。”
Lenny Rachitsky: I read somewhere that you were like, you told, "I need to quit.
Lenny Rachitsky：我在某处读到你说，“我需要辞职。
I don't understand what this is, and I'm not the right person for this role," and it turned out, nobody understood exactly what was going on.
我不明白这是什么，而且我不是这个角色的合适人选。”事实证明，没有人确切明白发生了什么。
Can you share that story?
你能分享那个故事吗？
Raaz Herzberg: It's funny, because it's a story that some of the founders tell, and they tell differently.
Raaz Herzberg：这很有趣，因为这是一些创始人讲述的故事，而且他们讲述的方式不同。
They tell, "She came to us, and she was like, we have to rethink," but that was not my perspective at all, right?
他们说，“她来找我们，她说，我们必须重新思考，”但这根本不是我的观点，对吧？
My perspective was genuinely, "Okay, I have to confess, that was my perspective."
我的观点是真诚的，“好吧，我必须承认，这就是我的观点。”
Raaz Herzberg: I was sure that I was the only one not understanding.
Raaz Herzberg：我确信我是唯一一个不理解的人。
It's hard to get the courage, I guess.
我想，鼓起勇气是很难的。
Sometimes, it's hard to get the courage to say, "Actually, I don't understand." But I think by now, in my career, it's my favorite question.
有时候，很难有勇气说：“其实，我不明白。”但我认为到目前为止，在我的职业生涯中，这是我最喜欢的问题。
Raaz Herzberg: I feel like I say, "I don't understand," a lot of times a day.
Raaz Herzberg：我感觉我每天都会说“我不明白”很多次。
I think, if you build a company with the right type of culture, in a sense, then it's not a shame to say, "I don't understand, or please explain again."
我认为，如果你建立了一家具有正确类型文化的公司，从某种意义上说，那么说“我不明白，或者请再解释一下”并不可耻。
Raaz Herzberg: It's having that culture in place that enables it.
Raaz Herzberg：正是拥有这种文化才得以实现。
And I also have to say, when I think of the founding team, and the founding team in Wiz, Wiz is a very flat organization, in some ways.
我还必须说，当我想到创始团队，以及 Wiz 的创始团队时，Wiz 在某些方面是一个非常扁平的组织。
It's not about seniority, it's really about driving impact, and everybody can have a seat on the table, and voices are heard.
这与资历无关，而真正与影响力有关，每个人都可以在谈判桌上占有一席之地，并且可以听到声音。
Raaz Herzberg: And I think it also reflects really highly about them, just giving me the seat at the table, in a sense, to be even able to say, "I don't understand."
拉兹·赫茨伯格（Raaz Herzberg）：我认为这也很好地反映了他们的情况，从某种意义上说，我什至可以说“我不明白”。
Raaz Herzberg: Then, when I'm saying I don't understand, not actually being open to, "Oh, maybe we have to also think again." I think that tells a lot about the culture, even, to this day.
拉兹·赫茨伯格：然后，当我说我不明白时，实际上并没有开放态度，“哦，也许我们还必须重新考虑一下。”我认为，即使到今天，这也能说明很多有关文化的信息。
Raaz Herzberg: But it's definitely, for me, it's a very learned quality over my progression of my career, actually allowing myself to be more vulnerable, more easier in saying, "I don't understand, or I don't know."
拉兹·赫茨伯格：但对我来说，这绝对是我职业生涯中学到的一种品质，实际上让自己变得更加脆弱，更容易说“我不明白，或者我不知道”。
Lenny Rachitsky: I love this lesson so much.
Lenny Rachitsky：我非常喜欢这节课。
One, partly because you said it's really scary to be the person that's like, "I don't understand," right?
一，部分是因为你说成为一个“我不明白”的人真的很可怕，对吗？
Lenny Rachitsky: That puts you, that's a very vulnerable thing to say, because you're like, "What?
莱尼·拉奇茨基（Lenny Rachitsky）：这让你觉得这是一件非常脆弱的事情，因为你会说，“什么？
She doesn't get it.
她不明白。
Maybe she is not as smart as we thought." That can't be easy, to be the person doing that.
也许她没有我们想象的那么聪明。”成为这样做的人并不容易。
Lenny Rachitsky: The other thing is this reminds me of Tomer Cohen, LinkedIn CPO, has this really great phrase, "We may be wrong, but we're not confused." I feel like that's exactly what you're saying here.
Lenny Rachitsky：另一件事是，这让我想起 LinkedIn 首席产品官托默·科恩 (Tomer Cohen) 的这句话，“我们可能错了，但我们并不困惑。”我觉得这正是你在这里所说的。
Raaz Herzberg: Exactly, which is why I love this question to this day.
Raaz Herzberg：没错，这就是为什么我至今仍然喜欢这个问题。
I love it.
我喜欢它。
I do think that if something is not easy to understand, then maybe it needs a bit more chewing on it.
我确实认为，如果某件事不容易理解，那么也许需要更多地咀嚼它。
Lenny Rachitsky: I love that.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢这个。
Okay, so things started to click a little bit more.
好吧，事情开始变得更加顺利了。
You started seeing enthusiasm.
你开始看到热情。
Can you talk about just what that phase was like, and any lessons from just that turn to, things are actually working?
您能否谈谈那个阶段的情况，以及从那个阶段学到的任何教训，事情实际上正在发挥作用？
Raaz Herzberg: I have to say, I think the feeling, after we made that switch, what ended up happening is that after that big conversation that we know, I don't understand, we ended up having, and this never happens, I don't think it's ever happened since.
拉兹·赫茨伯格：我不得不说，我认为，在我们做出转变之后，最终发生的事情是，在我们知道的、我不明白的大型对话之后，我们最终得到了这种感觉，而这种情况从未发生过，我认为从那以后就再也没有发生过。
It was almost a long, five-hour discussion, with all of the founders, where we decided to move away from that pivot to cloud security, which is what we really, in some ways, know best.
这几乎是与所有创始人进行的长达五个小时的长时间讨论，我们决定从以云安全为中心转向云安全，这在某些方面是我们真正最了解的。
Raaz Herzberg: That's our background, that's what we did before, and we felt the problems there was so big and so strong, and once we started having the conversations with the new pivot to cloud security, the room felt so different.
Raaz Herzberg：这就是我们的背景，这就是我们之前所做的，我们觉得那里的问题如此之大，如此之强，一旦我们开始与云安全的新支点进行对话，房间就感觉如此不同。
I mean, it was all over Zoom, but our room, it felt very different.
我的意思是，一切都在 Zoom 上进行，但我们的房间感觉非常不同。
Raaz Herzberg: Once we found the right path, it was so easy to distinguish it from the wrong path, in some ways, because we did start getting those strong signals.
Raaz Herzberg：一旦我们找到了正确的道路，在某些方面就很容易将其与错误的道路区分开来，因为我们确实开始收到这些强烈的信号。
And in some ways, they pushed us forward.
在某些方面，他们推动我们前进。
Raaz Herzberg: A customer was like, "Okay, I want to start a POV," and we're like, "Oh, okay.
Raaz Herzberg：一位顾客说，“好吧，我想开始一个 POV，”我们说，“哦，好吧。
Of course.
当然。
Let's schedule for Thursday next week, or something.
我们安排下周星期四之类的吧。
We tried to even postpone it a bit, because we had to run fast."
我们甚至试图推迟一点，因为我们必须跑得快。”
Raaz Herzberg: Another learning I have from that phase was, I explicitly remember that first conversation, where it was like, "Okay, let's do a POV." It was a Fortune 10 company, a really big company, and we had a beginning of a product.
Raaz Herzberg：我从那个阶段学到的另一个教训是，我清楚地记得第一次谈话，当时的感觉是，“好吧，让我们做一个 POV。”这是一家财富 10 强公司，一家非常大的公司，我们已经有了一个产品的雏形。
We wanted to buy some time, until we actually started the POV.
我们想争取一些时间，直到我们真正开始 POV。
Raaz Herzberg: Just because of that, we said, "Okay, also we want to really understand exactly what they will connect to us as part of the POV," because everything was so initial.
Raaz Herzberg：正因为如此，我们说，“好吧，我们也想真正了解他们作为 POV 的一部分将与我们联系到什么”，因为一切都是如此初始。
So we put this long list of technical questions, "What are you using for this?
因此，我们列出了一长串技术问题，“你用什么来做这个？
What are you doing here?
你在这里做什么？
What are you ?" On the one hand, because we needed to know, to actually build a thing, on the other end, just because we wanted to buy time, and I was super scared.
你是什么？一方面，因为我们需要知道，真正构建一个东西，另一方面，只是因为我们想争取时间，而我非常害怕。
Raaz Herzberg: I remember studying that e-mail, and being like, "Ugh, they want a POV.
Raaz Herzberg：我记得研究了那封电子邮件，然后说：“呃，他们想要一个 POV。
And now, I'm going to scare them away, with this list of things they have to do, and list of questions, like it's counterintuitive."
现在，我要用一系列他们必须做的事情和一系列问题来吓跑他们，就像这是违反直觉的一样。”
Raaz Herzberg: But actually, it came back filled a day later, and I remember my lesson being, "You know what?
拉兹·赫茨伯格：但实际上，一天后它就回来了，我记得我的教训是，“你知道吗？
This is actually good.
这其实很好。
I want to make sure they're committed, right?
我想确保他们忠诚，对吗？
I don't want to push somebody into a POV, if he is not committed to me at this stage." I mean, it's not a well-built product.
我不想让某人陷入主观视角，如果他在这个阶段还没有对我忠诚的话。”我的意思是，这不是一个精心打造的产品。
It's going to be a journey we take together, so they need to really want it.
这将是我们共同经历的一段旅程，所以他们需要真正想要它。
I need that commitment from the other side.
我需要对方的承诺。
Raaz Herzberg: I'm not trying to push something on someone, especially not at this point, and my opinion, not ever, not even today, not even when you sell at large scales.
Raaz Herzberg：我并不是想把某些事情强加给某人，尤其是在这个时候，我的观点是，从来都不是，即使是今天，甚至当你大规模销售时也不会。
I'm not trying to push anybody to anything, I really want to make sure they want it.
我并不是想强迫任何人做任何事，我真的想确保他们想要它。
I have to feel that want back.
我必须感觉到想要回来。
So that was another learning for me.
所以这对我来说是另一个学习。
Raaz Herzberg: It's like, first of all, when it works, it works, and you do know when it works.
Raaz Herzberg：首先，当它起作用时，它就起作用，而且你确实知道它何时起作用。
And the second is, "Don't be too afraid to get the pull from the customer." It's okay.
第二个是，“不要太害怕受到客户的影响。”没关系。
You need that pull from the other end, as well.
您也需要来自另一端的拉力。
Don't push too hard.
不要太用力。
Lenny Rachitsky: I know people always talk about, "Look for pull," and I love that you're describing what pull looks like.
Lenny Rachitsky：我知道人们总是谈论“寻找拉力”，我喜欢你描述拉力的样子。
Somebody's next day, filling out a really complicated annoying questionnaire, because they just want this product they've never heard of before you chatted with them.
第二天，有人填写了一份非常复杂、烦人的调查问卷，因为他们只是想要这个在你和他们聊天之前他们从未听说过的产品。
Lenny Rachitsky: Now, they're like, "Just give it to me now.
Lenny Rachitsky：现在，他们会说，“现在就把它给我吧。
I'm going to do anything you need." Is there anything else along these lines, before we move into your current role and learnings there?
我会做你需要的任何事情。”在我们进入您目前的角色并在那里学习之前，还有其他类似的事情吗？
Raaz Herzberg: I also think that one of the things we did very, almost uniquely, it was, was that, because things started rolling so fast for us, once we found the right path, we ended up selling before we had a seller's team.
Raaz Herzberg：我还认为，我们所做的一件事几乎是独一无二的，因为事情开始对我们来说进展得如此之快，一旦我们找到了正确的道路，我们最终在拥有卖家团队之前就完成了销售。
Raaz Herzberg: We ended up, almost in some ways, always being behind, right?
Raaz Herzberg：我们最终几乎在某些方面总是落后，对吧？
Okay, I'm closing contracts with people, I haven't hired my first salespersons, I don't know what we're doing here, I don't know how to have the conversations.
好吧，我正在与人们签订合同，我还没有雇用第一批销售人员，我不知道我们在这里做什么，我不知道如何进行对话。
Raaz Herzberg: But we ended up learning so much from that, from us, ourselves, us being the founders, myself, closing the deals, actually going all the way to contracts and everything, by ourselves.
Raaz Herzberg：但我们最终从中学到了很多东西，从我们自己，我们作为创始人，我自己，完成交易，实际上一直到合同和一切，都是我们自己。
We learned a lot, we learned a lot.
我们学到了很多，我们学到了很多。
Raaz Herzberg: And then, when we hired our first sales hire, it was also like, "Look, we sold a couple million of this, so you, for sure, as a salesperson, you kind of give that confidence."
拉兹·赫茨伯格：然后，当我们雇用第一个销售人员时，它也就像是，“看，我们售出了几百万个这样的东西，所以你，当然，作为一名销售人员，你应该给予这种信心。”
Raaz Herzberg: So I felt like there was multiple places where that ended up happening, just by accident, because of how fast things ended up happening for us.
拉兹·赫茨伯格：所以我觉得有很多地方最终发生了这种情况，只是偶然，因为事情发生的速度对我们来说太快了。
Actually, it was a really good learning experience to do it for the first time yourselves.
事实上，第一次自己做这件事真是一次很好的学习经历。
I think, sometimes, when you start building a company, you have this wish that if you can't do something, you're going to hire the right person, and he will be able to do it.
我想，有时候，当你开始建立一家公司时，你会有这样的愿望，如果你做不到某件事，你就会雇佣合适的人，他就能做到。
Raaz Herzberg: Okay, I feel like my message is not clear enough, and we just started this company, it's okay, I'm going to hire my first product marketer, and that's going to be it.
Raaz Herzberg：好吧，我觉得我的信息还不够清晰，我们刚刚创办了这家公司，没关系，我要聘请我的第一个产品营销人员，仅此而已。
Or I feel, we can't close a deal, because I need to hire my first salesperson, and that will be it.
或者我觉得，我们无法达成交易，因为我需要雇用我的第一位销售人员，仅此而已。
Raaz Herzberg: I hardly find that, I don't think we've ever had that work for us, honestly.
Raaz Herzberg：我很难发现这一点，说实话，我认为我们从来没有做过这样的工作。
It's like, if you can't do it one time end to end, and you're the core, core group, the chances of just bringing somebody from the outside to solve that problem, it's wishful, in some ways, but it never ends up that way.
就好像，如果你不能一次端到端地做到这一点，而你是核心、核心团队，那么从外部找人来解决这个问题的机会，在某些方面是一厢情愿的，但它永远不会以这种方式结束。
Lenny Rachitsky: I love this advice so much.
Lenny Rachitsky：我非常喜欢这个建议。
There's kind of two parallels here.
这里有两个相似之处。
If the founder can't do it, who has the most context and passion and motivation?
如果创始人做不到，谁最有背景、最有激情、最有动力？
It's unlikely an employee's going to be able to do it.
员工不太可能能够做到这一点。
And it's similar to the selling point, that if your early customers aren't pulling from you, later customers are not going to have a good time, right?
这与卖点类似，如果你的早期客户不离开你，后来的客户就不会玩得很开心，对吗？
Lenny Rachitsky: It's like, the most passion comes early.
Lenny Rachitsky：就像，最激情的时刻来得很早。
How long did you all stay, doing sales as a founding team?
你们作为创始团队做销售工作多久了？
How many millions ARR, roughly, do you remember?
您还记得大约有多少 ARR 吗？
Raaz Herzberg: Oh, a couple million.
Raaz Herzberg：哦，几百万。
I don't remember the exact-
我不记得具体的了——
Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
That's incredible.
那真是难以置信。
Often, the heuristic I hear is, one or two million ARR, and then you start to hire salespeople.
通常，我听到的启发是，一两百万ARR，然后你开始雇用销售人员。
Okay, that was an awesome lesson.
好吧，这是一个很棒的教训。
I love that.
我喜欢那个。
Lenny Rachitsky: I want to talk about your current role.
Lenny Rachitsky：我想谈谈你目前的角色。
So currently, you're CMO, and also, VP of product strategy at Wiz.
目前，您是 Wiz 的首席营销官兼产品策略副总裁。
You started as an engineer, you moved into product, and now you're in marketing, which is not a traditional path, especially for product people.
你一开始是一名工程师，后来进入了产品领域，现在你进入了营销领域，这不是一条传统的道路，特别是对于产品人员来说。
First of all, why did you decide to move into marketing, from product?
首先，你为什么决定从产品转向营销？
Raaz Herzberg: Yeah, it's not a traditional path for anyone, I think, also not one I would have necessarily expected myself to be on.
Raaz Herzberg：是的，我认为这对任何人来说都不是一条传统的道路，我也不一定希望自己走上这条道路。
First of all, it's not like I had this plan, right?
首先，我好像没有这个计划吧？
Raaz Herzberg: In general, I myself, people sometimes ask me about career progression, and I never had a plan for anything.
Raaz Herzberg：总的来说，就我本人而言，人们有时会问我有关职业发展的问题，但我从来没有任何计划。
That is just, the only thing I did was follow good people around.
只是，我唯一做的就是跟随身边的好人。
That's it.
就是这样。
I never had a plan for anything I do.
我对我所做的任何事情都没有计划。
Raaz Herzberg: So myself, coming to Wiz was following Assaf and Ynon in the founding team.
Raaz Herzberg：我本人是跟随创始团队中的 Assaf 和 Ynon 来到 Wiz 的。
And two and a half years into Wiz, at that time, Wiz was already, it was a very clear product market fit.
进入 Wiz 两年半以来，当时，Wiz 已经是一个非常明确的产品市场契合度。
Raaz Herzberg: Our revenues were already there.
Raaz Herzberg：我们的收入已经在那里了。
We had a sales team that was fully functioning, but at that point at Wiz, we felt marketing was still something we didn't fully figure out.
我们有一个功能齐全的销售团队，但在 Wiz 那个时候，我们觉得营销仍然是我们没有完全弄清楚的事情。
It wasn't working super well for us.
它对我们来说效果不太好。
We were at this stage where, yes, if there was a POV, a proof of value happening, we would win it, versus competition.
我们正处于这个阶段，是的，如果有一个 POV，一个价值证明发生，我们就会赢得它，而不是竞争。
Raaz Herzberg: But many times, we would come to a customer, and they would be like, "Oh, I wish we heard of Wiz, we just signed with a competitor," which it breaks your heart, because I know they would have chosen me, had they heard about me in time.
Raaz Herzberg：但很多时候，我们会去找客户，他们会说，“哦，我希望我们听说过 Wiz，我们刚刚与竞争对手签约”，这会让你心碎，因为我知道如果他们及时听说我的话，他们会选择我。
So you started feeling that challenge around awareness and marketing.
所以你开始感受到意识和营销方面的挑战。
So two and a half years into the company, basically Assaf, our CEO, asked me if I was willing to take on marketing.
进入公司两年半后，我们的首席执行官阿萨夫基本上问我是否愿意承担营销工作。
Raaz Herzberg: Originally, I thought it was, I remember, he knocked on my, bothered me while I was working on my computer, and we went into this super cold room.
Raaz Herzberg：最初，我以为是，我记得，当我在电脑上工作时，他敲了我的门，打扰了我，然后我们就走进了这个超级冷的房间。
It was like, when you were a fast-growing startup, all of the rooms are always full, you know what I mean?
就像，当你是一家快速发展的初创公司时，所有的房间总是满的，你知道我的意思吗？
Raaz Herzberg: We went into this server room, which is freezing cold, and I was in the middle of something, and he told me, "I think you should lead the marketing org now." I told him, "Okay." I was like, "Assaf, I'm cold, I'm going back to work.
Raaz Herzberg：我们走进这个服务器机房，那里非常寒冷，我正在做某事，他告诉我，“我认为你现在应该领导营销组织。”我告诉他：“好吧。”我当时想，“阿萨夫，我很冷，我要回去工作了。
I have a lot to do." It sounded that bizarre to me.
我有很多事情要做。”这对我来说听起来很奇怪。
Raaz Herzberg: It's not only, do they not know marketing, I spent my life in engineering, and in any product, it's not the go to market side, even.
Raaz Herzberg：这不仅是他们不懂营销，我一生都在工程领域度过，在任何产品中，这甚至都不是进入市场的方面。
I was never part of the go to market, or I have never heard of a lead in my life.
我从来没有参与过上市，或者说我从来没有听说过我的生活中的领先者。
I did not know the word "pipeline."
我不知道“管道”这个词。
Raaz Herzberg: All of those things were very remote to me, very.
Raaz Herzberg：所有这些事情对我来说都非常遥远。
It sounded like such a bizarre motion.
这听起来真是一个奇怪的动作。
But that was on a Thursday, and then, I spent the weekend, because he asked me to, and again, I just follow good people, and do what they tell me to do.
但那是在星期四，然后，我度过了周末，因为他要求我这么做，而且，我只是跟随好人，做他们告诉我做的事。
Raaz Herzberg: So I spent the weekend listening to a ton of podcasts, talking to CMOs, just to even understand what do CMOs do, what do marketing orgs do in B2B companies?
Raaz Herzberg：所以我整个周末听了大量的播客，与 CMO 交谈，只是为了了解 B2B 公司中的 CMO 是做什么的，营销组织是做什么的？
Raaz Herzberg: Then I ended up deciding to just give it a try, and we did not know if it was going to work.
Raaz Herzberg：然后我最终决定尝试一下，但我们不知道它是否会起作用。
I also don't know if it's going to work forever, but we ended up deciding to give it a try.
我也不知道它是否会永远有效，但我们最终决定尝试一下。
Raaz Herzberg: I think the thing that's convinced me to do it was that, in some ways, I really felt like if, in the early days of the company, finding product market fit is a major block for the company.
Raaz Herzberg：我认为说服我这样做的原因是，在某些方面，我真的觉得，在公司成立的早期，找到适合市场的产品是公司的一个主要障碍。
And then, building a sales organization becomes a major block for the company.
然后，建立销售组织就成为公司的一个主要部分。
Raaz Herzberg: I felt like we were at the point, where you have to figure it out to scale.
Raaz Herzberg：我觉得我们已经到了必须按比例解决问题的时候了。
At some point, of every product, people start looking really heavily at brand, whether we think that way, or we don't.
在某些时候，对于每一种产品，人们都会开始非常重视品牌，无论我们是否这么认为。
When I buy my iPhone, I have no idea how it really is compared to an Android phone.
当我购买 iPhone 时，我不知道它与 Android 手机相比到底如何。
I did not look at the specs.
我没有看规格。
I truly have no idea.
我真的不知道。
Raaz Herzberg: So why do I buy an iPhone?
Raaz Herzberg：那我为什么要买 iPhone？
I just know it's the thing to buy.
我只知道这是要买的东西。
B2B products, even the most complex products, people are still people.
B2B产品，即使是最复杂的产品，人仍然是人。
They still buy it, because brand matters a lot.
他们仍然购买它，因为品牌很重要。
Raaz Herzberg: That was part of what convinced me that this is super important.
Raaz Herzberg：这让我相信这是非常重要的。
So if I'm asked to attempt, at least try, because I do think it's really important.
因此，如果我被要求尝试，至少尝试一下，因为我确实认为这非常重要。
Lenny Rachitsky: I love this.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢这个。
I love the detail of the cold room, by the way.
顺便说一句，我喜欢冷藏室的细节。
Speaking of cold, when we were chatting earlier, you had this really beautiful metaphor of heat.
说到寒冷，当我们之前聊天时，你有一个关于热的非常美丽的比喻。
And where heat is within an organization and how it shifts, as the company grows.
随着公司的发展，组织内的热度在哪里，以及热度如何变化。
Can you share that?
你能分享一下吗？
Raaz Herzberg: Yeah, it's exactly that.
拉兹·赫茨伯格：是的，正是如此。
It's like that in the early, early days when we just started with, I remember, I felt like the heat was in the product kitchen.
就像我们刚开始的时候一样，我记得，我感觉产品厨房里很热。
Because it's like, everybody's waiting to have something, people want to start doing something, right?
因为这就像，每个人都在等待拥有一些东西，人们想要开始做一些事情，对吗？
Raaz Herzberg: Then they felt like, "Okay, you start understanding it," and now, the heat moves a bit to the engineering side like, "Okay, build it.
Raaz Herzberg：然后他们感觉，“好吧，你开始理解它了”，现在，热度转移到了工程方面，比如，“好吧，建造它。”
Somebody wants it, build it, make it work."
有人想要它，建造它，让它发挥作用。”
Raaz Herzberg: Then I felt, "Okay, so we close a couple of deals now," right?
Raaz Herzberg：然后我觉得，“好吧，我们现在完成了几笔交易，”对吗？
We had our first couple of clients.
我们有了第一批客户。
Now you bring in sales, and the heat moves to sales, because they're like, "Okay, we have this thing, now go sell it." And then, the heat starts moving to marketing, in my opinion, where it's like, "Okay, we have a product market fit.
现在你带来了销售，热度就转向了销售，因为他们会说，“好吧，我们有这个东西，现在去卖吧。”然后，在我看来，热度开始转向营销，“好吧，我们有适合市场的产品。
Salespeople can sell it, but they're saying, 'Give me more pipeline like, 'Hey, nobody heard of Wiz.
销售人员可以卖掉它，但他们会说，‘给我更多的管道，比如，‘嘿，没人听说过 Wiz。
Give me more.'"
给我更多。’”
Raaz Herzberg: So the heat moves to marketing, at that point.
Raaz Herzberg：因此，此时热点就转移到了营销上。
That's kind of, I've always felt like, yeah, in some ways, I also naturally, I guess, follow the heat.
我一直觉得，是的，在某些方面，我想，我也很自然地追随热度。
Lenny Rachitsky: And I think it's actually more so, that they put the best people in the places that need the most help.
Lenny Rachitsky：我认为实际上更重要的是，他们将最优秀的人才放在最需要帮助的地方。
Clearly, that was you, when they did that.
显然，当他们这样做时，就是你。
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Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 Cloudinary 为您带来，Cloudinary 是互联网上所有图像和视频的基础技术，受到超过 200 万开发人员和许多世界领先品牌的信赖。
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Lenny Rachitsky：Fiverr 工程团队负责人 Gil Grossman 表示，“我们的用户共享数十亿图像、视频和音频文件。
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Cloudinary 能够大规模自动化我们的后期制作工作，每月可节省多达 92,000 个工作日。”大胆思考，快速建造大船。
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立即开始您的免费计划，网址：cloudinary.com/lenny。
Lenny Rachitsky: I asked one of your board members, Shardul Shah, what to ask you.
Lenny Rachitsky：我问你们的一位董事会成员 Shardul Shah，该问你什么。
He's a partner at Index Ventures, and here's what he told me, speaking of this move to marketing.
他是 Index Ventures 的合伙人，以下是他对我讲述的营销举措。
Lenny Rachitsky: He said that when you were in your first board meeting, the Wiz board meeting, presenting marketing, and sharing your plan, and you asked him, "Hey, can you introduce me to all these marketing leaders, so I can learn from them," he basically did the opposite.
Lenny Rachitsky：他说，当你在第一次董事会会议，即 Wiz 董事会会议上，介绍营销并分享你的计划时，你问他，“嘿，你能把我介绍给所有这些营销领导者吗，这样我就可以向他们学习，”他基本上做了相反的事情。
Lenny Rachitsky: He's like, "No, I'm going to introduce all my marketing leaders to you, because I think they need to learn from you." Why do you think that's the case?
Lenny Rachitsky：他说，“不，我要把我所有的营销领导者介绍给你，因为我认为他们需要向你学习。”你认为为什么会这样？
Raaz Herzberg: I think Shardul is very kind.
Raaz Herzberg：我认为 Shardul 非常友善。
I deeply remember that meeting, because funny enough, it was my first board meeting ever.
我深深地记得那次会议，因为很有趣，这是我有史以来的第一次董事会会议。
That is a funny thing by itself, because Wiz's board, we have Shardul on our board, we have Doug Leon, and we have Jeff from Insights.
这本身就是一件有趣的事情，因为 Wiz 的董事会，我们的董事会中有 Shardul，我们有 Doug Leon，还有来自 Insights 的 Jeff。
Raaz Herzberg: It's almost like, it's very humbling to sit down in front of those people, period.
Raaz Herzberg：这几乎就像，坐在这些人面前是非常谦卑的，就这样。
And since I decided to take marketing, and I took to the CMO role, this was also my first board meeting ever.
由于我决定从事营销工作，并担任首席营销官，这也是我有史以来的第一次董事会会议。
Raaz Herzberg: And also, it was the meeting where it's, in some ways, I was not that.
拉兹·赫茨伯格：而且，在这次会议上，从某些方面来说，我并不是那样的人。
I was like, "Okay, we took our product manager person, she was never a CMO at any company, and now she has a CMO here." So it was just very, the whole setting was very stressful for me.
我当时想，“好吧，我们聘请了产品经理，她从来都不是任何公司的首席营销官，现在她在这里有了首席营销官。”所以整个环境对我来说压力很大。
Raaz Herzberg: I just ended up, it was like, I think we just had the meeting two months after I took over marketing.
Raaz Herzberg：我刚刚结束，我想我们在我接手营销两个月后才举行了会议。
So it was more of an update of, "Hey, those are the changes I've made, and this is how I'm thinking of approaching this, and this is all the things I've done in the past two months."
所以这更多的是更新，“嘿，这些是我所做的改变，这就是我考虑解决这个问题的方式，这就是我在过去两个月里所做的所有事情。”
Raaz Herzberg: It's funny, because I'm a very non-traditional marketer, just because I really don't know marketing.
Raaz Herzberg：这很有趣，因为我是一个非常非传统的营销人员，只是因为我真的不懂营销。
At this point, I kind of know already, because I've been doing it for two years, and I read a lot, but at that point, I generally did not know.
在这一点上，我已经知道了，因为我已经这样做了两年，并且读了很多书，但那时我通常不知道。
I could not even explain to you how untraditional my approach was, in some ways.
我什至无法向你解释我的方法在某些方面是多么非传统。
Raaz Herzberg: I just really did what I thought.
Raaz Herzberg：我只是按照自己的想法去做。
I mean, I had a ton to learn about marketing, but what I knew really well was the problem we solved, and I really knew our audience.
我的意思是，我有很多关于营销的知识需要学习，但我真正了解的是我们解决的问题，而且我真的了解我们的受众。
Raaz Herzberg: I myself, I come from security, I come from cloud security, I read all of the right Twitters, and I follow all of the right people on Twitter, and I read all of the right blogs.
Raaz Herzberg：我本人，我来自安全部门，我来自云安全部门，我阅读了所有正确的 Twitter，我在 Twitter 上关注了所有正确的人，我阅读了所有正确的博客。
Raaz Herzberg: I know it's funny, I know what matters, I know it's interesting right now, generally because, this is my space.
Raaz Herzberg：我知道这很有趣，我知道什么重要，我知道现在很有趣，通常是因为，这是我的空间。
I mean, I live in that space, truly, as a customer.
我的意思是，我确实作为客户生活在那个空间里。
So I was just thinking, "Okay, what are things I could do, to start fixing the problem that mattered most?" And that was, nobody heard of Wiz at that time.
所以我只是在想，“好吧，我可以做些什么来开始解决最重要的问题？”那就是，当时没有人听说过维兹。
Raaz Herzberg: Those were just, I was saying, "Okay, I think, in order to do that, I'm willing to take chances, I'll just focus on making a lot of noise." And I think, even in that short time of two months, we saw changes happening already, in some ways.
拉兹·赫茨伯格：我只是说，“好吧，我想，为了做到这一点，我愿意冒险，我会专注于制造很多噪音。”我认为，即使在短短的两个月时间里，我们在某些方面已经看到了变化。
Raaz Herzberg: So I think, that what's Shardul meant by that, of course, although I do think he's being very, very kind, and I have learned a lot from many, many marketing people, including my own team, by the way, which is another interesting thing., right?
Raaz Herzberg：所以我认为，Shardul 的意思当然是这样，尽管我确实认为他非常非常友善，而且我从很多很多营销人员（包括我自己的团队）那里学到了很多东西，顺便说一句，这是另一件有趣的事情，对吧？
Raaz Herzberg: I took over a large team, of people who are marketers, and I'm this person knows nothing about marketing, but will now manage this.
Raaz Herzberg：我接管了一个由营销人员组成的大型团队，我这个人对营销一无所知，但现在将管理这个问题。
So I learned a lot from many marketers, including my own exceptional team.
因此，我从许多营销人员那里学到了很多东西，包括我自己的优秀团队。
Raaz Herzberg: But I think he meant, really looking at it differently, just thinking, "Okay, what is the end to the goal of having the right people hear the right thing about my company, ASAP," versus a ton of traditional aspects, of building pipelines and different things they really did not know how to do, at that time.
Raaz Herzberg：但我认为他的意思是，真正以不同的方式看待它，只是想，“好吧，让合适的人尽快听到关于我公司的正确信息的目标是什么？”与大量传统方面，即建设管道和他们当时真正不知道如何做的不同事情相比。
Lenny Rachitsky: So following that thread, I'm curious, what is it that you think CMOs mistake, or often do wrong?
Lenny Rachitsky：那么，按照这个思路，我很好奇，您认为 CMO 会犯什么错误，或者经常做错什么？
Why do you think CMOs often don't work out, and they brought in someone like you, with this very fresh perspective?
您认为为什么首席营销官常常不成功，而他们却引进了像您这样具有非常新鲜视角的人？
Where do you think folks often go wrong?
你认为人们经常犯错的地方在哪里？
Raaz Herzberg: First of all, I think CMO is a very, very hard role.
Raaz Herzberg：首先，我认为 CMO 是一个非常非常难的角色。
And also, I think it's a role that is very hard to do without a lot of trust, and without a deep connection to the founding team.
而且，我认为如果没有足够的信任，并且没有与创始团队的深厚联系，这个角色是很难担任的。
Everything you do in marketing is very visible, and you're kind of touching something that matters so deeply to the founding team, and you are the one representing it to the world.
你在营销中所做的一切都是非常明显的，你正在触及一些对创始团队来说非常重要的事情，而你是向世界代表它的人。
Raaz Herzberg: So it's very hard to build that trust, and it's very easy to break it, because one bad ad, or something that one of the founding team will say, "Oh, this is not us, this is not what I mean, this is not the right thing," it breaks the trust really easily.
Raaz Herzberg：所以建立这种信任非常困难，而且很容易打破它，因为一则糟糕的广告，或者创始团队之一会说，“哦，这不是我们，这不是我的意思，这不是正确的事情”，它很容易打破信任。
Raaz Herzberg: And I think it's especially challenging.
Raaz Herzberg：我认为这特别具有挑战性。
I mean, I really don't know how somebody that does not come from from a security background could be successful deeply, in this type of a role, for a company like Wiz, because it is really about understanding your customers, and it is really about understanding your product.
我的意思是，对于像 Wiz 这样的公司来说，我真的不知道一个没有安全背景的人如何能够在这种类型的角色中取得深刻的成功，因为这实际上是关于了解你的客户，它真的是关于了解你的产品。
I think that's very, very hard to gain.
我认为这是非常非常难获得的。
Raaz Herzberg: So I guess I would say, I think it's the deep trust you need with the founding team, and the really deep connection you need to the product, and to the market.
Raaz Herzberg：所以我想我会说，我认为这是你需要与创始团队的深度信任，以及你需要与产品和市场的真正深厚的联系。
I think both of that, when you come from the outside, in a way, because you are not part of the founding team, and also, you maybe come from outside the market, sometimes, because it's a very technical market or it's a very different domain, then I think it's two really big challenges.
我认为，当你从外部来时，在某种程度上，因为你不是创始团队的一员，而且，你可能来自市场之外，有时，因为这是一个非常技术性的市场，或者是一个非常不同的领域，那么我认为这是两个非常大的挑战。
Raaz Herzberg: I'm not saying you can't come over them, but I think, it's just a very, very hard job.
Raaz Herzberg：我并不是说你不能克服它们，但我认为，这是一项非常非常困难的工作。
On top of that, it's a very diverse job.
最重要的是，这是一项非常多样化的工作。
When I was a product manager, I managed product managers.
当我担任产品经理时，我管理产品经理。
I know exactly what they like, what they don't like.
我清楚地知道他们喜欢什么，不喜欢什么。
That's my audience, I know who to hire.
那是我的听众，我知道该雇用谁。
I have the best network, I know every single PM and security around me.
我拥有最好的网络，我了解我周围的每一个 PM 和安全人员。
It's so different.
真是太不一样了。
Raaz Herzberg: When you are a marketing leader, you manage performance marketing, which is a numbers game.
Raaz Herzberg：当你是营销领导者时，你要管理绩效营销，这是一场数字游戏。
You manage designers and brand, and then you manage events and field.
你管理设计师和品牌，然后管理活动和场地。
There's nothing in between those things that is deeply correlated.
这些事物之间没有任何密切相关的东西。
Sp it's just a very, very challenging and very interesting role.
Sp这只是一个非常非常具有挑战性和非常有趣的角色。
Lenny Rachitsky: This trust point is so interesting, especially based on what you said earlier, where what you want it to do is create noise, take some risks.
Lenny Rachitsky：这个信任点非常有趣，特别是根据您之前所说的，您希望它做的就是制造噪音，承担一些风险。
That's extra hard, if you're not someone that the founding team trusts.
如果你不是创始团队信任的人，那就更难了。
Lenny Rachitsky: Can you share some of the things you did that helped create noise, and get the Wiz name out there, that might inspire folks of like, "Oh, that was really cool, we should do something like that?"
Lenny Rachitsky：你能分享一下你所做的一些事情，这些事情有助于引起轰动，并让 Wiz 的名字广为人知，这可能会激励人们，“哦，那真的很酷，我们应该做这样的事情吗？”
Raaz Herzberg: Yeah.
拉兹·赫茨伯格：是的。
Another insight I had about marketing in the early days was how different it is from product.
我早期对营销的另一个见解是它与产品有多么不同。
As a product manager, I was always, and still believe, it's so important to think really hard about everything you add.
作为一名产品经理，我始终相信，并且仍然相信，认真思考您添加的所有内容非常重要。
Less is more.
少即是多。
Raaz Herzberg: If you decide to build a feature in a product, then A, you're taking engineering time, which is the most valuable resource in every company, in my opinion, and B, in some ways, you can never take it back.
Raaz Herzberg：如果你决定在产品中构建一个功能，那么 A，你会占用工程时间，在我看来，这是每个公司最宝贵的资源；B，在某些方面，你永远无法收回它。
It's complicated your product.
你的产品很复杂。
Even if one customer likes it and uses it, at least at B2B, you're never going to be able to suddenly take it away.
即使一位客户喜欢它并使用它，至少在 B2B 中，你也永远无法突然将其夺走。
Raaz Herzberg: Every new feature you add to your product, you'll have to think about, "Okay, how does it work with that feature?" So it's like making a mistake, adding something to the product that is not the right thing, or that is not truly, truly what your customer needed, even if it's what they asked for.
Raaz Herzberg：您添加到产品中的每一个新功能，您都必须考虑，“好吧，它如何与该功能配合使用？”因此，这就像犯了一个错误，在产品中添加了一些不正确的东西，或者不是客户真正需要的东西，即使这是他们所要求的。
But if it's not what they truly needed, it has a huge cost associated with it.
但如果这不是他们真正需要的，那么就会产生巨大的成本。
Raaz Herzberg: Marketing is quite the opposite, in my opinion.
Raaz Herzberg：在我看来，营销恰恰相反。
There's no cost to anything, no maintenance to anything, no technical depth, no anything.
任何东西都不需要任何成本，任何东西都不需要维护，没有技术深度，什么都没有。
If tomorrow I post a video on Wiz's LinkedIn page, and I think that video is super funny, and nobody likes that video, nothing happened.
如果明天我在 Wiz 的 LinkedIn 页面上发布一个视频，并且我认为该视频非常有趣，但没有人喜欢该视频，那么什么也没有发生。
Raaz Herzberg: Tomorrow, I'll post a different video, no maintenance, bye-bye, forgot it ever happened.
Raaz Herzberg：明天，我将发布另一个视频，无需维护，再见，忘记它曾经发生过。
In some ways, it dawned on me how opposite those things were, and I was like, "Okay, we have to just use it to our advantage.
在某些方面，我意识到这些事情是多么相反，我想，“好吧，我们必须利用它来发挥我们的优势。
Let's try everything, let's try everything.
让我们尝试一切，让我们尝试一切。
I'm trying to make noise."
我正试图发出声音。”
Raaz Herzberg: It was right before, when I took over, it was before RSA.
Raaz Herzberg：就在我接手之前，就在 RSA 之前。
RSA is the Super Bowl of security companies.
RSA 是安全公司的超级碗。
So it's where every vendor's come to showcase, and all of our buyers are there, and you know how those conferences go.
所以这是每个供应商都来展示的地方，我们所有的买家都在那里，你知道这些会议是如何进行的。
You pay for having a space assigned to you, and it's a very expensive space to assign to yourself.
您需要为分配给您的空间付费，而分配给您自己的空间非常昂贵。
Raaz Herzberg: And we had the exact same spot we had the year before.
Raaz Herzberg：我们的位置与前一年完全相同。
I said, "Okay, it's a booth at a conference.
我说：“好吧，这是一个会议的摊位。
I'll just make it the weirdest booth ever, because my goal is just having people look and be like, 'Oh, what is Wiz, right?
我会让它成为有史以来最奇怪的展位，因为我的目标只是让人们看起来像，‘哦，Wiz 是什么，对吧？
Because they've never heard of me."
因为他们从来没有听说过我。”
Raaz Herzberg: Instead of doing a classical cyber booth, I decided to say, "Okay, let's scrap our booth, and do a Wiz of Oz booth," which literally looked like a Wiz of Oz booth, and we had actors, like Dorothy, and all those things hanging around there.
Raaz Herzberg：我没有做一个传统的网络展位，而是决定说，“好吧，让我们废弃我们的展位，做一个绿野仙踪的展位”，它看起来就像绿野仙踪的展位，我们有演员，比如多萝西，还有所有这些东西挂在那里。
Raaz Herzberg: It looked nothing like any booths in the show, which is a cybersecurity show, things are red and black, and people with hoodies.
Raaz Herzberg：它看起来一点也不像展会上的任何展位，这是一场网络安全展会，东西是红色和黑色的，人们都穿着连帽衫。
And we decided to take a completely opposite approach.
我们决定采取完全相反的方法。
Raaz Herzberg: In general, I also decided that we're going to take a completely opposite approach was brand.
Raaz Herzberg：总的来说，我还决定在品牌方面采取完全相反的方法。
I wanted Wiz's brand to, again, my first motive, stand out.
我希望 Wiz 的品牌能够脱颖而出，这是我的首要动机。
Raaz Herzberg: I wanted Wiz to have a very positive, optimistic type of brand.
Raaz Herzberg：我希望 Wiz 拥有一个非常积极、乐观的品牌。
So I went all in on, "Scrap whatever we were doing before, which was dark, and go pink, go bright blue, always go optimistic, and focused on magic, not scaring people from the facts, but magic." And that ended up, and it was scary, don't get me wrong.
所以我全力以赴，“放弃我们之前所做的一切，那些黑暗的东西，变成粉红色，变成亮蓝色，永远保持乐观，专注于魔法，不是让人们害怕事实，而是魔法。”结果就这样结束了，这很可怕，别误会我的意思。
Raaz Herzberg: Half of me was like, I remember feeling so scared walking to the show, to the floor trade.
拉兹·赫茨伯格：我的一半感觉是，我记得走路去展会、去场内交易时感到非常害怕。
Because I was like, "Is this going to be the most terrible, bizarre?
因为我想，“这会是最可怕、最奇怪的吗？
Are people going to be like, 'What is she thinking?'" So I knew it could either be a failure, or a hit.
人们会问，‘她在想什么？’”所以我知道这可能会失败，也可能会大受欢迎。
Raaz Herzberg: And it ended up, the amount of people that stopped by our booth was five times the amount of people that stopped by the year before.
Raaz Herzberg：最终，参观我们展位的人数是前一年的五倍。
It's the exact same space, the exact same investment, because you invest in the space.
这是完全相同的空间，完全相同的投资，因为你投资于这个空间。
Raaz Herzberg: But also, ever since we do themed booths, every time, we change themes to keep it fun.
Raaz Herzberg：而且，自从我们举办主题展位以来，每次我们都会改变主题以保持乐趣。
At this point, you won't see other cyber companies even doing themes.
在这一点上，你不会看到其他网络公司甚至在做主题。
We were just, "Okay, we'll do whatever it takes to make noise," and this is just one example.
我们只是说，“好吧，我们会尽一切努力制造噪音”，这只是一个例子。
Lenny Rachitsky: That is an amazing story.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：这是一个了不起的故事。
You said that other companies now try to do something similar, right?
你说其他公司现在也在尝试做类似的事情，对吧？
Oh, man.
哦，伙计。
So along these lines, when we were chatting earlier, you shared that you kind of have this mindset of being very okay with failing, that's a core part of you.
因此，沿着这些思路，当我们之前聊天时，您分享说您有一种可以接受失败的心态，这是您的核心部分。
Lenny Rachitsky: And it feels like, that comes up again and again in the stories you share, where you just try stuff, and you're okay if it doesn't work out.
Lenny Rachitsky：感觉这在你分享的故事中一次又一次地出现，你只是尝试一些东西，如果不成功你也没关系。
Can you just talk about that part, and why that's so important?
您能谈谈这一部分吗？为什么它如此重要？
Raaz Herzberg: Almost every single thing I've done in my career, in some ways, even before, I never thought I was going to be successful in it.
Raaz Herzberg：几乎我在职业生涯中所做的每一件事，在某些方面，甚至在此之前，我从未想过自己会取得成功。
I guess there's a lot of times, it's a lot of talk about being more confident than yourself.
我想很多时候，很多人都在谈论比自己更自信。
I don't know, at least for me, I don't really know if that's a real option, okay?
我不知道，至少对我来说，我真的不知道这是否是一个真正的选择，好吗？
Raaz Herzberg: I just know that I'm kind of okay with being pretty sure I'm going to fail at something, and still attempting it.
Raaz Herzberg：我只知道我很确定自己会在某件事上失败，但仍然在尝试，这没什么问题。
That is the thing that has grown in me where, when I took the job, it was, I was sure, I was sure they got confused, that they offered to take me with him.
这就是我内心成长的东西，当我接受这份工作时，我确信，我确信他们感到困惑，他们提出带我一起去。
Raaz Herzberg: I was certain that it's going to be like, "Okay, they're going to figure out that I'm not the right fit for that super smart and talented group of people," who have all worked together before, by the way, I was sure they're going to find me out.
拉兹·赫兹伯格：我确信这会是这样的，“好吧，他们会发现我不适合那群超级聪明、有才华的人”，顺便说一句，他们以前都一起工作过，我确信他们会找到我。
Raaz Herzberg: And I was pretty sure I was going to fail, but I will still take it.
Raaz Herzberg：我很确定我会失败，但我仍然会接受。
I thought I was going to fill the product manager role, too, although I did have the experience.
我认为我也将担任产品经理的角色，尽管我确实有经验。
Raaz Herzberg: So that also makes it easier to move, in some ways.
Raaz Herzberg：因此，在某些方面，这也使得移动变得更容易。
If I think I'm going to fail with anything, I'm like, "Okay, whatever, I'll try," and I think over time, yeah, it releases you a bit.
如果我认为我会在任何事情上失败，我会说，“好吧，无论如何，我会尝试”，我想随着时间的推移，是的，它会释放你一点。
Sure, I might fail.
当然，我可能会失败。
Raaz Herzberg: By the way, I might still fail.
Raaz Herzberg：顺便说一句，我可能仍然会失败。
It's also fine.
也还好。
Even in my current role, probably not for every scale, it'll make sense for me to do it, but that's also fine.
即使在我目前的角色中，可能并不适合所有规模，这样做对我来说是有意义的，但这也很好。
It's still just giving yourself the opportunity to fail.
这仍然只是给自己失败的机会。
Lenny Rachitsky: That is really empowering.
Lenny Rachitsky：这确实让人充满力量。
Is there anything that helps you build that skill, that's not natural to a lot of people, being okay with failure, and leaning into things that they think they'll probably fail at?
有没有什么可以帮助你培养这种对很多人来说并不自然的技能，接受失败，并倾向于他们认为可能会失败的事情？
Where did that come from, for you?
对你来说，它是从哪里来的？
Raaz Herzberg: Yeah, depending on what you believe in, everything comes from childhood.
Raaz Herzberg：是的，这取决于你相信什么，一切都来自童年。
In some ways, I do think it has to do with, I think the way my mom raised me, my mom really believed that if you're good at something, so that's not where you should invest your energy.
在某些方面，我确实认为这与我妈妈抚养我的方式有关，我妈妈真的相信，如果你擅长某件事，那么那不是你应该投入精力的地方。
She really believed in pushing us to the places where we were less confident in, I guess.
我想，她确实相信将我们推向我们不那么自信的地方。
Raaz Herzberg: I mean, I was a very shy kid.
拉兹·赫茨伯格：我的意思是，我是一个非常害羞的孩子。
My natural inclination, as a young kid, was to close the door in my room, read a book.
作为一个小孩子，我的自然倾向是关上房间的门，看书。
I had no interest in meeting other kids or doing sports or nothing, nothing, really super, super shy.
我对认识其他孩子或做运动什么的都没有兴趣，什么都没有，真的超级超级害羞。
And I think, also slightly unsocial by nature, really.
我认为，本质上也有点不合群，真的。
Raaz Herzberg: But for my mom, she could have been like, "Oh, so she's really good was books and math, so let's focus.
拉兹·赫茨伯格：但对我妈妈来说，她可能会说，“哦，她真的很擅长书籍和数学，所以让我们集中注意力吧。
Perfect.
完美。
Let her build up the skill, and be really good with that." But no, she would make me go swimming, and make me go meet other kids.
让她增强技能，并真正擅长这一点。”但不，她会让我去游泳，让我去见其他孩子。
Raaz Herzberg: In some ways, I feel, she always used to say that friction is good.
拉兹·赫茨伯格：在某些方面，我觉得，她总是说摩擦是好的。
If you brush your teeth, and there's a bit of blood somewhere, then you need to brush harder there.
如果你刷牙的时候发现某个地方有一点血，那么你就需要用力刷那个地方。
It's that idea, that friction is kind of good.
就是这个想法，摩擦是件好事。
Raaz Herzberg: If you're good at something already, then you're good at something already.
Raaz Herzberg：如果你已经擅长某件事，那么你就已经擅长某件事了。
So it's a bit more about learning how to learn, how to push yourself in other areas.
所以更多的是学习如何学习，如何在其他领域推动自己。
Raaz Herzberg: I think she put hard work and courage, in some ways, or friction, mostly, above talent.
拉兹·赫茨伯格（Raaz Herzberg）：我认为她在某些方面将努力工作和勇气（或者主要是摩擦）置于天赋之上。
Talent only gets you so far, but that hard work in the friction gets you more.
天赋只能让你走这么远，但在摩擦中努力工作会让你走得更远。
Lenny Rachitsky: That is an awesome story.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：这是一个很棒的故事。
It's interesting that friction is good circles back to the story you shared about creating hurdles for potential prospects early on, and creating, looking for enthusiasm, where they're filling out these long surveys.
有趣的是，摩擦是很好的循环，回到你分享的关于早期为潜在前景设置障碍，并创造、寻找热情，他们填写这些长期调查的故事。
How about that?
怎么样？
Raaz Herzberg: No, it's true.
拉兹·赫茨伯格：不，这是真的。
You're right.
你说得对。
It shows something.
它表明了一些东西。
It shows if you do, it's always easier to be in inertia, right?
它表明，如果你这样做，总是更容易陷入惯性，对吗？
Raaz Herzberg: That's why I also say, sometimes, it's like breakup advice I give my girlfriends over the years, where it's like, "Well, if you decide to break up with somebody, it's for sure the right decision, right?"
拉兹·赫茨伯格：这就是为什么我有时也说，这就像多年来我给女朋友的分手建议，就像，“好吧，如果你决定与某人分手，这肯定是正确的决定，对吧？”
Raaz Herzberg: Because not breaking up with somebody is much easier.
Raaz Herzberg：因为不与某人分手要容易得多。
It's so hard to break up.
分手真是太难了
So that makes it, by default, the right decision.
因此，默认情况下，这就是正确的决定。
So it's like, yes, where there's friction, it means that you put something extra in.
所以这就像是，是的，哪里有摩擦，就意味着你添加了额外的东西。
Lenny Rachitsky: I want to circle back to marketing/product advice, going back full circle a little bit.
Lenny Rachitsky：我想回到营销/产品建议，稍微回到原点。
So folks that are in product, now that you're in the marketing world, thinking about marketing, what do you think you wish you knew as a product leader, that you think a product leader should be thinking more of, or maybe you miss, that you now see as a marketing leader?
那么，从事产品工作的人们，现在你身处营销世界，思考营销，你认为作为产品领导者你希望知道什么，你认为产品领导者应该更多地考虑什么，或者你可能错过了，你现在作为营销领导者所看到的？
Raaz Herzberg: Having done products for many years, I really did not understand the criticality of marketing, and even of product marketing.
Raaz Herzberg：做了多年产品，我实在不明白营销，甚至产品营销的重要性。
I really did not understand deeply enough that sometimes even gap, between when you're in the product, and you really live inside the product.
我确实没有足够深入地理解，有时甚至在你身处产品中和你真正生活在产品内部之间存在差距。
Raaz Herzberg: In the technical domain, you can sometimes not understand how far you are from a common person in your market, or a seller in your market.
Raaz Herzberg：在技术领域，你有时无法理解你与市场中的普通人或市场中的卖家有多远。
And marketing, in a lot of ways, bridges that gap.
营销在很多方面弥补了这一差距。
Raaz Herzberg: It's like a multiplier, but the further you get away from the core engineer, than product, then in order for the messages to move correctly, they have to be crystal clear.
Raaz Herzberg：这就像一个乘数，但是你离核心工程师（而不是产品）越远，那么为了使消息正确传递，它们必须非常清晰。
That is something I understood only when looking at it from the other side.
这是我只有从另一面看才明白的事情。
If you're on the product side, you can often work with things that are fluffy or blurry or gray, okay?
如果你在产品方面，你经常可以处理蓬松、模糊或灰色的东西，好吗？
Raaz Herzberg: Somebody will ask you, "Can the product do this?" You'll be like, "Yeah, not exactly, but it can do, blah, blah, blah," kind of work around something, right?
Raaz Herzberg：有人会问你，“这个产品能做到这一点吗？”你会说，“是的，不完全是，但它可以，等等，等等，”某种解决办法，对吧？
It doesn't have to be crystal clear, because you can kind of go around things, in a way, that when you try to scale your message, you can't.
它不必非常清晰，因为你可以在某种程度上绕过一些事情，当你试图扩展你的信息时，你却做不到。
It gets lost in translation.
它在翻译中迷失了。
You have to be crystal clear, black and white.
你必须是晶莹剔透、黑白分明的。
Raaz Herzberg: You have to communicate very clearly, especially as an organization scales, you have to communicate very clearly.
Raaz Herzberg：你必须非常清晰地沟通，尤其是随着组织规模的扩大，你必须非常清晰地沟通。
Suddenly, you're looking at the product org from the outside, in the company that scales fast.
突然间，您开始从外部、快速扩展的公司中审视产品组织。
And you said, "Whoa, product marketing, in marketing, plays a really important role, in being able to take that message and amplify it."
你说，“哇，产品营销在营销中发挥着非常重要的作用，能够接受并放大该信息。”
Raaz Herzberg: And if you are giving signals that are even a bit gray, fuzzy, then it's not going to work, and you can't expect them to do a good job with it, in some ways.
Raaz Herzberg：如果你发出的信号甚至有点灰色、模糊，那么它就不会起作用，你不能指望他们在某些方面做得很好。
I really, by understanding the go to market perspective, and the user perspective, and the seller perspective, I suddenly understood how things that can look simple on the inside of that side, are very complex, when you cross over to the go to market side.
我真的，通过了解进入市场的视角、用户的视角和卖家的视角，我突然明白了当你跨入进入市场的一面时，那些在内部看起来很简单的事情是如何变得非常复杂的。
And I think learning the difference is so, so important for product people to understand, that they have to deliver those crystal clear messages about the product.
我认为了解差异对于产品人员来说非常重要，他们必须传达有关产品的清晰信息。
Lenny Rachitsky: Is there an example of that, where you're like, "Oh, wow, I thought this was good, but no, nobody understands what we're talking about?"
Lenny Rachitsky：有没有这样的例子，你会说，“哦，哇，我觉得这很好，但是不，没有人明白我们在说什么？”
Raaz Herzberg: There's so much.
拉兹·赫茨伯格：有很多。
I think, for example, in our domain, it's very, almost custom, to talk in a lot of initials, and a lot of things in security are, "Use initials for them." You say CSPM, for Cloud Security Poster Management, and you use a lot of those types of initials, and you keep assuming that the world knows what you mean.
我认为，例如，在我们的领域，使用很多缩写词进行交谈几乎是一种习惯，而安全领域的很多事情都是“使用缩写词”。您说 CSPM（云安全海报管理），您使用了很多此类缩写，并且您一直假设全世界都知道您的意思。
Raaz Herzberg: But then, when actually looked at things over, from the marketing side, if you ask our product people, engineers, "Where does our product fall in terms of category," it would be CNAP, Cloud Native Application Protection.
Raaz Herzberg：但是，当实际从营销角度审视事物时，如果你问我们的产品人员、工程师，“我们的产品在类别方面属于哪个类别”，那会是 CNAP（云原生应用程序保护）。
But if you go over and you look at Google, people are not Googling that word.
但如果你去谷歌看看，人们不会在谷歌上搜索这个词。
They're Googling, "Cloud security solution," right?
他们在谷歌上搜索“云安全解决方案”，对吗？
Raaz Herzberg: So that's just a simple and silly example, but it's that example, that when you live inside something very technically inside your market, inside domain, you're very remote, sometimes, by accident from the buyer.
Raaz Herzberg：所以这只是一个简单而愚蠢的例子，但就是这个例子，当你生活在你的市场、领域内技术性很强的东西里时，你与买家的距离非常遥远，有时，是偶然的。
So a lot of those learnings clicked for me, only once they saw everything from the marketing side.
因此，只有当他们从营销方面看到一切后，我才明白其中的很多知识。
Lenny Rachitsky: You have this concept that you described as a dummy explanation, when someone, you just need it to feel really, really simple.
Lenny Rachitsky：你将这个概念描述为一个虚拟的解释，当有人时，你只需要它感觉非常非常简单。
Can you add some color to that?
你能给它添加一些颜色吗？
Raaz Herzberg: Yes.
拉兹·赫茨伯格：是的。
It's when I, now in marketing, and in everything we write, and everything our team produces in terms of anything, anything written by Wiz, I keep going back to, I don't want us to forget that we are inside our own bubble.
当我现在从事营销工作时，在我们写的所有内容中，以及我们团队用 Wiz 编写的任何内容制作的所有内容中，我不断回顾，我不想让我们忘记我们是在自己的泡沫中。
Raaz Herzberg: We go to work at Wiz every day.
Raaz Herzberg：我们每天都去 Wiz 上班。
Wiz is a cloud security company.
Wiz 是一家云安全公司。
We live inside our own bubble, but reminding ourselves that customers don't live in that bubble, they're people in the world.
我们生活在自己的泡沫中，但提醒自己，客户并不生活在那个泡沫中，他们是世界上的人。
Their life is not Wiz.
他们的生活不是维兹。
Raaz Herzberg: So every time you write something, I wanted to not assume knowledge about Wiz, or knowledge about the product, or deep knowledge about the market.
Raaz Herzberg：所以每次你写东西时，我不想假设你了解 Wiz、产品或市场的深入知识。
I'll give just a simple example.
我只举一个简单的例子。
Raaz Herzberg: Wiz itself is based on, part of the deep innovation that Wiz brought to the market that enabled the scale, was a very high correlated signal that's based on a graph database.
Raaz Herzberg：Wiz 本身的基础是，Wiz 为市场带来的深度创新的一部分，实现了规模化，这是一个基于图形数据库的非常高的相关信号。
So inside Wiz, we have the Wiz graph database, for security.
所以在 Wiz 内部，为了安全起见，我们有 Wiz 图形数据库。
Raaz Herzberg: If you write something that says, the Wiz Graph Database, I don't like it.
Raaz Herzberg：如果你写的内容是 Wiz 图形数据库，我不喜欢它。
Because why would a common person know it is the Wiz Graph Database, right?
因为为什么普通人会知道它是 Wiz 图数据库，对吗？
So it's making sure that every single thing you say is understandable by anybody.
所以它要确保你所说的每一句话都能被任何人理解。
There's no reason to use complex terminology, when you can keep things straight and simple.
当您可以使事情简单明了时，就没有理由使用复杂的术语。
Lenny Rachitsky: Easier said than done, but such a good reminder to always be, is there a framework here?
Lenny Rachitsky：说起来容易做起来难，但这是一个很好的提醒，这里有一个框架吗？
Are you just trying to remember, people outside don't understand anything we are talking about, and simplify it further?
你只是想记住，外面的人听不懂我们在说什么，并进一步简化它吗？
Lenny Rachitsky: How do you actually practice that?
Lenny Rachitsky：你实际上是如何练习的？
Because I imagine everyone's, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know.
因为我想象每个人都会说：“是的，是的，是的，我知道。
I know all this stuff," but they don't actually do it.
我知道所有这些事情，”但他们实际上并没有这样做。
Is there any tips there, for how to actually practice this?
对于如何实际练习，有什么建议吗？
Raaz Herzberg: I constantly remind myself about the bubble.
Raaz Herzberg：我不断提醒自己关于泡沫的事情。
Every time somebody says, "Oh, we haven't changed our color for so long, or a website's headline," a lot of those things, for me, it's like, you are the only one that is sick of it.
每当有人说，“哦，我们已经很久没有改变我们的颜色，或者网站的标题了，”很多这样的事情，对我来说，就好像，你是唯一一个厌倦它的人。
Raaz Herzberg: Your customers are just learning what you put there 10 months ago.
Raaz Herzberg：您的客户刚刚了解您 10 个月前放在那里的内容。
You are the only one looking at this thing, day after day after day after day after day.
你是唯一一个看着这件事的人，日复一日，日复一日。
You're actually going to change it, only they're just starting to grasp it, and you're changing it under their feet.
你实际上要改变它，只是他们才刚刚开始掌握它，而你正在他们脚下改变它。
Raaz Herzberg: It's living in that bubble, and constantly reminding myself, it is a bubble.
Raaz Herzberg：它生活在那个泡沫中，并不断提醒自己，这是一个泡沫。
I'm in that Wiz bubble, right, but my audience is not.
我身处奇才泡沫中，对吧，但我的观众却不是。
So yeah, it's a daily reminder.
是的，这是每日提醒。
It's a hard daily reminder.
这是一个艰难的日常提醒。
Lenny Rachitsky: That is so funny.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：这太有趣了。
Okay, just a few more questions.
好的，还有几个问题。
One is, so there's four co-founders of Wiz.
一是，Wiz 有四位联合创始人。
That right?
是吗？
Lenny Rachitsky: What your relationship with them, how has that changed over the years, and over time?
Lenny Rachitsky：你和他们的关系如何？这些年来，随着时间的推移，这种关系发生了怎样的变化？
I imagine it's very difficult being, not a founder, trying to have a lot of influence on strategy and vision, and all these things.
我想，如果不是创始人，想要对战略和愿景以及所有这些事情产生很大的影响，那是非常困难的。
Lenny Rachitsky: Just, I guess, how has that relationship changed over the years?
莱尼·拉奇茨基：我想，这些年来这种关系发生了怎样的变化？
Anything there that might be helpful to folks, and any advice for people in a similar boat, to work well with founders who are also very product-oriented, and very opinionated about everything?
有什么可能对人们有帮助的吗？对于有类似情况的人有什么建议，可以与同样以产品为导向、对一切都非常有主见的创始人良好合作吗？
Raaz Herzberg: Yeah, I think the Wiz founding team is a truly incredible team.
Raaz Herzberg：是的，我认为 Wiz 创始团队是一支真正令人难以置信的团队。
They also have a very unique story.
他们还有一个非常独特的故事。
Wiz is actually their second company together.
Wiz 实际上是他们合作的第二家公司。
So before Whiz, they founded Adallom, which sold to Microsoft.
因此，在 Whiz 之前，他们创立了 Adallom，并将该公司出售给了微软。
Raaz Herzberg: That's how they all ended up in Microsoft in the first place.
Raaz Herzberg：这就是他们最终加入微软的原因。
Even before that, they all worked together in the Israeli army, so they've known each other for, they've been working together for 30 years, right?
甚至在此之前，他们都在以色列军队中一起工作，所以他们已经认识了，他们已经一起工作了30年，对吧？
Raaz Herzberg: It's a long, long time.
拉兹·赫茨伯格：这是一个很长很长的时间。
Well, not 30, I made them older, like 20, 22, 22 years.
好吧，不是 30 岁，我让他们变老了，比如 20、22、22 岁。
It's a very, very, very unique team, where there is complete trust between the team members.
这是一个非常非常独特的团队，团队成员之间完全信任。
Each has his own clear domain, and that's why decisions are made super fast, super fast, because, the complete trust, and everybody has their clearly own domain.
每个人都有自己明确的领域，这就是为什么决策速度非常快，因为完全信任，每个人都有自己明确的领域。
Raaz Herzberg: I think the unique thing about Wiz, and I truly think it defines their company's culture to this day, is exactly that they did not have to work hard, to be able to impact strategy, and get a seat at the table.
Raaz Herzberg：我认为 Wiz 的独特之处在于，他们不必努力工作，就能影响战略并获得一席之地，而且我确实认为它定义了他们公司至今的文化。
Raaz Herzberg: I think that it's open, it's a very open culture, and an open company, that goes back to the beginning of being able to say, "I don't understand."
Raaz Herzberg：我认为它是开放的，这是一种非常开放的文化，也是一家开放的公司，这可以追溯到能够说“我不明白”的开始。
Raaz Herzberg: They really believe in employees, and they really believe in giving everybody a chance to have impact.
Raaz Herzberg：他们真的相信员工，也真的相信应该给每个人发挥影响力的机会。
Regardless of title or experience or anything, if you want to drive more impact, you will get the chance.
无论头衔、经验或其他什么，如果你想产生更大的影响，你就会有机会。
I think it's something I really learned to adore in that team.
我认为这是我在那个团队中真正喜欢的东西。
Raaz Herzberg: It's like, they will give their trust to someone, and they will allow you to try.
Raaz Herzberg：就像，他们会信任某人，他们会允许你尝试。
And I think it also causes employees to have a lot of loyalty, because you are given those opportunities, and you are given that chance.
我认为这也会让员工有很大的忠诚度，因为你得到了这些机会，而且你也得到了这个机会。
Raaz Herzberg: It builds a very, very healthy culture, and I think, also, a culture that's very loyal.
Raaz Herzberg：它建立了一种非常非常健康的文化，而且我认为也是一种非常忠诚的文化。
Everybody feels part of what's being built here.
每个人都感受到这里正在建设的东西的一部分。
Lenny Rachitsky: Incredible.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：难以置信。
And how many employees are there?
有多少员工？
How large is Wiz at this point?
此时 Wiz 有多大？
Just for folks to get a sense, if they want to potentially join Wiz, some day?
只是为了让人们了解一下，如果有一天他们想加入 Wiz 的话？
Raaz Herzberg: Around 1,000 through 500, probably.
Raaz Herzberg：大概是 1,000 到 500 左右。
Okay, awesome.
好吧，太棒了。
Amazing.: Okay, well, potentially final question.
太棒了。：好吧，可能是最后一个问题。
I want to take us to Contrarian Corner.
我想带我们去逆向角。
I'm curious if there's something you have a very contrarian opinion about, something that you believe, that a lot of other people don't believe?
我很好奇是否有一些事情你有非常相反的观点，一些你相信但很多人不相信的事情？
Okay, awesome.
好吧，太棒了。
Amazing.: We've already covered a number of things, I think, like that, but is there anything else that comes to mind?
太棒了。：我想，我们已经讨论了很多事情，但是还有其他的事情发生吗？
Raaz Herzberg: It's so funny, because I don't think we've covered anything contrarian.
Raaz Herzberg：这太有趣了，因为我认为我们没有涵盖任何逆向思维。
Raaz Herzberg: I think one thing is, maybe goes back to what I was talking about before, but it was failing in confidence.
拉兹·赫茨伯格：我认为有一件事是，也许可以回到我之前谈论的内容，但它在信心方面失败了。
I think at least, being a woman in tech, you get talked to a lot about imposter syndrome, and building up her confidence.
我认为至少，作为一名科技行业的女性，你会被谈论很多关于冒名顶替综合症的话题，并建立她的信心。
I actually do think that my approach to it, at least for me, has been just more effective.
事实上，我确实认为我的方法，至少对我来说，更加有效。
I won't be able to build that confidence.
我将无法建立这种信心。
Raaz Herzberg: I do feel like an imposter, and I know there's always those statistics about many people feeling that way.
Raaz Herzberg：我确实感觉自己像个冒名顶替者，而且我知道总有一些统计数据表明很多人有这种感觉。
So I think, maybe just, "Let's embrace it.
所以我想，也许只是，“让我们拥抱它吧。
I feel like an imposter, you feel like an imposter, everybody feels like an imposter," It's kind of, maybe embrace it, but don't let that stop you from making a decision.
我觉得自己像个冒名顶替者，你也觉得自己像个冒名顶替者，每个人都觉得自己像个冒名顶替者，”这是一种，也许可以接受它，但不要让它阻止你做出决定。
Raaz Herzberg: Maybe they will find out you're an imposter, maybe let them find out.
Raaz Herzberg：也许他们会发现你是冒名顶替者，也许让他们发现。
It's fine.
没关系。
If you think about trying to go to an interview for a company, and you start thinking, "Oh no, I won't get accepted, they won't take me," perfect.
如果你考虑尝试去一家公司面试，然后你开始想，“哦，不，我不会被接受，他们不会接受我，”完美。
Raaz Herzberg: Let them not accept you.
Raaz Herzberg：让他们不接受你。
You think you're not good enough?
你觉得你不够好？
Perfect.
完美的。
That's on them, to not accept you, right?
那就是他们不接受你，对吗？
Give yourself that opportunity.
给自己这个机会。
Raaz Herzberg: And I think, for me, maybe less talking about the imposter syndrome, more talking about just, "Okay, but ignore it.
拉兹·赫茨伯格：我认为，对我来说，也许更少谈论冒名顶替综合症，更多地谈论“好吧，但忽略它。
You will never know your limit if you don't try."
如果你不尝试，你永远不会知道自己的极限。”
Lenny Rachitsky: The best advice I've heard along these lines, which is basically what you're saying, is that when you take on a new role, you actually are an imposter.
Lenny Rachitsky：我听过的最好的建议，基本上就是你所说的，就是当你担任新角色时，你实际上是一个冒名顶替者。
You've never done this before, and that's okay, and that's very normal.
你以前从未这样做过，没关系，这很正常。
Lenny Rachitsky: Most people in a new role, when they're promoted, given a big opportunity, yeah, you are an imposter in many ways, but that's okay.
Lenny Rachitsky：大多数担任新职位的人，当他们升职时，都会得到很大的机会，是的，你在很多方面都是冒名顶替者，但这没关系。
And that's exactly what you're saying.
这正是你所说的。
Raaz Herzberg: I never heard it, but I love it.
Raaz Herzberg：我从来没有听说过，但我喜欢它。
Lenny Rachitsky: Raaz, is there anything else you wanted to share, anything else that we haven't touched on, that you think might be helpful to folks, before we get to our very exciting lightning round?
Lenny Rachitsky：Raaz，在我们开始激动人心的闪电回合之前，您还有什么想分享的吗？还有什么是我们没有触及的，您认为可能对大家有帮助的吗？
Raaz Herzberg: I deeply, deeply believe that we're doing something super special in Wiz, and I think the company is in such an interesting place of hyperscaling, but still keeping that authentic, and I think, flat and enabling culture.
Raaz Herzberg：我深深地相信，我们正在 Wiz 做一些非常特别的事情，我认为该公司正处于一个非常有趣的超大规模扩张阶段，但仍然保持着真实的、我认为扁平且有利的文化。
Raaz Herzberg: I think there's literally interesting opportunities across every domain.
Raaz Herzberg：我认为每个领域都确实存在有趣的机会。
So yeah, just to say that we are always hiring for great people, trying to make an impact.
所以，是的，我只想说，我们一直在招聘优秀的人才，努力产生影响。
Lenny Rachitsky: Are there any roles or areas you're specifically most focused on hiring now, in case folks are listening, you're like, "Oh, shit, I'm going to apply?"
Lenny Rachitsky：您现在最关注招聘的职位或领域有哪些，以防万一人们在听，您会说，“哦，该死，我要申请？”
Raaz Herzberg: Truly, the beauty of hypersaling is, we are hiring across everything, but also, if you feel super strongly about joining, and you don't find the right role, we'd still love to talk to you.
Raaz Herzberg：确实，超级销售的美妙之处在于，我们正在招聘所有方面，而且，如果您非常想加入，但没有找到合适的职位，我们仍然很乐意与您交谈。
There's many, many things for passionate people to do here.
充满热情的人们在这里可以做很多很多事情。
Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
We'll link to the Career page in the show notes.
我们将链接到演出笔记中的职业页面。
And with that, Raaz, we've reached our very exciting lightning round.
拉兹，就这样，我们进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。
Are you ready?
你准备好了吗？
Lenny Rachitsky: First question, what are two or three books that you find yourself recommending most to other people?
Lenny Rachitsky：第一个问题，您发现自己最向其他人推荐的两三本书是什么？
Raaz Herzberg: So I focus like it was on the product side of things.
Raaz Herzberg：所以我专注于产品方面。
We mentioned the heat in the kitchen.
我们提到厨房里的热量。
Actually, one of my most favorite business books, and I've read a lot of them, is probably Setting the Table, by Danny Meyer, which is, he owns Shake Shack, and a chain of really great restaurants in New York.
事实上，我最喜欢的商业书籍之一（我读过很多）可能是丹尼·迈耶（Danny Meyer）所著的《摆盘》（Setting the Table），也就是说，他在纽约拥有 Shake Shack 和一系列非常棒的连锁餐厅。
Raaz Herzberg: And it's such an interesting business perspective, from a different domain, than obviously tech or SaaS.
Raaz Herzberg：这是一个非常有趣的商业视角，来自不同的领域，显然与技术或 SaaS 不同。
But there's so many applicable lessons there, from the deep connection to hosting, focusing and obsessing over your customer.
但那里有很多适用的经验教训，从深层联系到接待、关注和痴迷于你的客户。
Shake Shack, unlike other chains, where they optimize for you not to sit down, they optimize for you to sit down there.
Shake Shack 与其他连锁店不同，他们优化你不坐下，他们优化你坐在那里。
It's a very, very unique culture and unique vision, and I've learned a lot.
这是一种非常非常独特的文化和独特的愿景，我学到了很多东西。
Some of the most memorable lessons come from his management thoughts.
一些最令人难忘的教训来自他的管理思想。
Raaz Herzberg: Imagine huge chains, but also very high-end restaurants.
Raaz Herzberg：想象一下巨大的连锁店，但也有非常高端的餐厅。
I think it's a very, very inspiring, inspiring book, and different, just different from my domain, but very applicable in my domain, as well.
我认为这是一本非常非常鼓舞人心的书，而且与众不同，只是与我的领域不同，但也非常适用于我的领域。
Raaz Herzberg: And then, a second book I really like, I read it early on in Wiz, and so did the entire founding team, I think, the book by Netflix co-founder Reed Hastings, No Rules Rules, which also, I think, talks very clearly.
Raaz Herzberg：然后，我非常喜欢的第二本书，我很早就在 Wiz 读过，我认为整个创始团队也读过，Netflix 联合创始人 Reed Hastings 的书《No Rules Rules》，我认为这本书也讲得非常清楚。
Netflix has a super unique culture and story, right?
Netflix 拥有超级独特的文化和故事，对吧？
Raaz Herzberg: Talk about pivots, they sold cassettes over mail, and somehow pivoted to what it is today.
Raaz Herzberg：谈论枢轴，他们通过邮寄出售磁带，并以某种方式枢轴到今天的样子。
That's an insane story.
这是一个疯狂的故事。
Think about pivoting from a tech company, to a company that has production to do, and produces reality TV.
考虑一下从一家科技公司转型为一家有生产业务、制作真人秀节目的公司。
Talk about the type of culture you would need to truly pivot, I think it's a super interesting read for anybody thinking about putting strong culture in place.
谈论您需要真正转变的文化类型，我认为对于任何考虑建立强大文化的人来说，这都是一本非常有趣的读物。
Lenny Rachitsky: I'm going to call an audible, and ask about marketing, specifically.
Lenny Rachitsky：我会打电话给有声设备，具体询问有关营销的问题。
You said that early on, you read some marketing books, and listened to marketing podcasts.
您说过，您很早就读过一些营销书籍，听过营销播客。
Is there anything else that you recall was very helpful, in helping you ramp up in this world, and do marketing?
您还记得还有什么对您在这个世界上成长和进行营销非常有帮助的事情吗？
Raaz Herzberg: Honestly, I think, at the end, for me, I just ended up saying, "What are the companies I feel do things really well?
Raaz Herzberg：老实说，我认为，最后，对我来说，我只是说：“我认为哪些公司做得很好？
What are the brands I love, and what do I love about them?"
我喜欢哪些品牌？我喜欢它们的什么？”
Raaz Herzberg: And then, really obsessing about, what did they do, what are their team doings?
Raaz Herzberg：然后，我真的很着迷，他们做了什么，他们的团队在做什么？
And then, also, obsessing about the people behind them.
然后，也痴迷于他们背后的人。
For example, I think Gong does an amazing job in marketing, for a B2B product.
例如，我认为Gong在B2B产品的营销方面做得非常出色。
Raaz Herzberg: So it was like, "Okay, so what are all the things Gong did?" Then I would look up every single talk their CMO gave.
Raaz Herzberg：所以就像是，“好吧，那么龚都做了什么？”然后我会查阅他们首席营销官的每一次演讲。
So it's like, I always backed up into it.
所以就像，我总是支持它。
I did not care if it's a security company or not a security company.
我不在乎它是不是一家保安公司。
Raaz Herzberg: I actually don't like the way most security companies market things.
Raaz Herzberg：实际上我不喜欢大多数安全公司的营销方式。
It's mostly by frightening and fear, and I don't like it.
主要是因为害怕和恐惧，我不喜欢这样。
For me, it was just looking at brands I love, and then backtracking from there.
对我来说，这只是寻找我喜欢的品牌，然后从那里回溯。
Lenny Rachitsky: I love that.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢这个。
We have the CPO of Gong and co-founder coming on the podcast very soon, so I'll ask him about this.
龚的 CPO 和联合创始人很快就会出现在播客中，所以我会问他这个问题。
Lenny Rachitsky: All right, next question.
Lenny Rachitsky：好的，下一个问题。
Do you have a favorite recent movie or TV show you really enjoyed?
您最近有最喜欢的电影或电视节目吗？
Raaz Herzberg: Honestly, I hardly, hardly watch anything.
Raaz Herzberg：老实说，我几乎不看任何东西。
I think The Wire is the best show ever created.
我认为《火线》是有史以来最好的节目。
Raaz Herzberg: I will take that fight with anybody.
拉兹·赫茨伯格：我会和任何人一起战斗。
But yeah, I haven't really watched anything super recent.
但是，是的，我还没有真正看过任何最近的东西。
Lenny Rachitsky: The only problem with the Wire is it's so long to watch.
Lenny Rachitsky：《火线》唯一的问题是它的观看时间太长。
I've watched, I've seen it, I love it, but it's a large commitment.
我看过，我看过，我喜欢它，但这是一个很大的承诺。
It's an hour times 22 episodes times, I think, five seasons, but worth it.
我认为这是一个小时乘以 22 集的时间，五季，但值得。
Lenny Rachitsky: Next question, do you have a favorite product you've recently discovered, that you really love?
Lenny Rachitsky：下一个问题是，您最近发现了一款您真正喜欢的最喜欢的产品吗？
Raaz Herzberg: It's a funny question, in the world we live in, where there's just so many similar things.
Raaz Herzberg：这是一个有趣的问题，在我们生活的世界里，有很多相似的事情。
Lenny Rachitsky: That's why.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：这就是原因。
Which one should we pay attention to?
我们应该注意哪一个呢？
That's the question.
这就是问题所在。
Raaz Herzberg: I'll answer a pretty random answer.
Raaz Herzberg：我会回答一个非常随机的答案。
Raaz Herzberg: Recently, I always go around with a notebook and a pen, still that type of person.
Raaz Herzberg：最近我总是带着笔记本和笔到处走，还是那样的人。
I mean, I constantly walk around with them, across office rooms, blah, blah blah, and I always care deeply about the notebook and the pen.
我的意思是，我经常和他们一起走来走去，穿过办公室，等等，等等，我总是非常关心笔记本和笔。
Raaz Herzberg: I'm a very picky person.
Raaz Herzberg：我是一个非常挑剔的人。
I pick pens, I pick notebooks, and I often lose my pens, which is sad.
我挑笔，我挑笔记本，我经常丢笔，这是可悲的。
I recently bought this cute something, it's very geeky, like, a pen holder for a notebook.
我最近买了这个可爱的东西，它非常极客，就像笔记本的笔架。
I did not know they existed.
我不知道它们的存在。
Raaz Herzberg: It's a very nice feature.
Raaz Herzberg：这是一个非常好的功能。
It's small, magnetic, and it claps into your notebook, and then you can put the pen in it.
它很小，有磁性，可以夹进你的笔记本，然后你就可以把笔放进去。
Really nice feature.
真的很不错的功能。
Lenny Rachitsky: How does one find this?
Lenny Rachitsky：如何找到这一点？
Is there a brand, or a name, or something?
有品牌、名称或其他什么吗？
Raaz Herzberg: I'll send you a link, but if you look, "notebook pen holder," you'll find a ton.
Raaz Herzberg：我会向您发送一个链接，但如果您查看“笔记本笔架”，您会发现很多。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, cool.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的，酷。
We'll link to in the show notes, whatever one you recommend.
无论您推荐什么，我们都会在演出笔记中链接到。
Lenny Rachitsky: Just a couple more questions.
Lenny Rachitsky：还有几个问题。
Do you have a favorite life motto that you often come back to and find helpful, in work or in life?
您是否有一条最喜欢的人生格言，并且在工作或生活中经常回顾并发现它对您有帮助？
Raaz Herzberg: I think, keeping it simple.
Raaz Herzberg：我认为，保持简单。
If you start feeling like something is too complex, or an answer is too complex, or something you're building in the product is too complex probably, or something in your life feels too complex, probably, it does mean something.
如果你开始感觉某些东西太复杂，或者答案太复杂，或者你在产品中构建的东西可能太复杂，或者你生活中的某些东西感觉太复杂，可能，它确实意味着什么。
But sometimes, you just have to maybe take two steps back, leave it there, until you come back to it again, and you find a simple way out.
但有时，你可能只需要后退两步，把它留在那里，直到你再次回来，找到一个简单的出路。
Raaz Herzberg: Whether it's a private feature or anything, I feel like, if something starts getting too complex, and you don't know how to design it, or how to find end from start, it does mean it's not the right solution.
Raaz Herzberg：无论是私人功能还是其他任何东西，我觉得，如果某件事开始变得太复杂，而你不知道如何设计它，或者如何从头开始找到结束，这确实意味着它不是正确的解决方案。
It's too complex, it's not the right solution, but sometimes, I take two steps back, and you find it applicable to anything in life, almost.
它太复杂了，不是正确的解决方案，但有时，我退后两步，你会发现它几乎适用于生活中的任何事情。
Lenny Rachitsky: Reminds me of the story when you were trying to sell the initial version of Wiz/beyond whatever it was called, early on, and it was just too complicated.
Lenny Rachitsky：让我想起了你早期试图销售 Wiz 的初始版本/超越它的名称时的故事，而且它太复杂了。
No one understood what the hell's going on, and so I love how that circles back.
没有人明白到底发生了什么，所以我喜欢这种循环。
Lenny Rachitsky: Final question.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：最后一个问题。
I know you can't talk too much about this, but I'm also just curious what you're able to share.
我知道你不能对此谈论太多，但我也很好奇你能分享什么。
As I said, allegedly, a company whose name rhymes with Loogle, wanted to buy you guys for many billions, and you all decided to decline that, and stay private.
正如我所说，据称，一家名字与 Loogle 押韵的公司想以数十亿美元收购你们，而你们都决定拒绝，并保持私有状态。
Anything you could share there, about maybe why you decided to do that, if that was true at all?
如果这是真的的话，您可以在那里分享一些关于您决定这样做的原因吗？
Raaz Herzberg: Yeah, I mean, I can't address any specific offers.
Raaz Herzberg：是的，我的意思是，我无法提供任何具体优惠。
Obviously, Wiz over the years has gotten many acquisition offers.
显然，维兹这些年来已经收到了很多收购要约。
I can share, that I think for us, us being the founding team, the employees, the customers, the board, staying on an independent path, we all really believe that Wiz can become one of the biggest security companies in the world.
我可以分享的是，我认为对于我们来说，作为创始团队、员工、客户、董事会，坚持走独立的道路，我们都坚信 Wiz 可以成为世界上最大的安全公司之一。
Raaz Herzberg: When you look at Wiz today, and I mean, we spoke about the unconventional growth, when you think about it, in some ways, Wiz addresses the biggest growing market of security.
Raaz Herzberg：当你今天看到 Wiz 时，我的意思是，我们谈到了非常规的增长，当你想到这一点时，在某些方面，Wiz 解决了最大的安全增长市场。
Cloud security, cloud is the fastest growing, cloud is such a fast-growing market.
云安全，云是增长最快的，云就是这样一个快速增长的市场。
Cloud grows 20, 30%, year over year.
云计算同比增长 20%、30%。
Raaz Herzberg: We feel like everything is in the cloud, but in reality, by estimation, only 20%, 15 to 20% of the infra today, is in cloud.
Raaz Herzberg：我们感觉一切都在云中，但实际上，据估计，今天只有 20%（即 15% 到 20%）的基础设施位于云中。
It's a really, really fast-growing state, in a fast-growing market.
在一个快速增长的市场中，这是一个真正非常快速增长的州。
And security by nature is a bit of a market of leaders.
安全本质上是一个领导者市场。
Raaz Herzberg: I mean, it's a bit like buying insurance for something.
Raaz Herzberg：我的意思是，这有点像为某事购买保险。
You want to buy it from the best, from the leader in this domain.
你想从这个领域最好的、领导者那里购买它。
And today, Wiz really is that leader, because it's a new space.
今天，Wiz 确实是那个领导者，因为这是一个新的空间。
Wiz is considered, I think, in many ways, and that is also what makes marketing and brand, not just marketing, but truly, brand so important.
我认为，Wiz 在很多方面都被考虑，这也是营销和品牌的原因，不仅仅是营销，而且真正的品牌如此重要。
Raaz Herzberg: Wiz is considered, I think, the cloud security company, in a lot of ways.
Raaz Herzberg：我认为 Wiz 在很多方面都被认为是一家云安全公司。
Still, of course, it's our to lose.
当然，我们还是会输。
There's a ton of work ahead of us, but that is a huge opportunity in front of us, becoming the cloud security company.
我们还有大量的工作要做，但这是我们面前的一个巨大的机会，成为云安全公司。
And I think nobody thinks we are anywhere near ready to give it up, in a way.
我认为没有人认为我们已经准备好在某种程度上放弃它。
Lenny Rachitsky: I totally understand that, and again, Wiz is hiring, in case you are inspired by what you're hearing.
Lenny Rachitsky：我完全理解这一点，并且 Wiz 正在招聘，以防您受到所听到的启发。
Lenny Rachitsky: Raaz, this was incredible.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：拉兹，这太不可思议了。
I'm so happy that you did this.
我很高兴你这么做了。
Thank you so much for being here.
非常感谢您来到这里。
Lenny Rachitsky: Two final questions.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：最后两个问题。
Where can folks find you online, if they want to reach out, and maybe follow up on stuff?
如果人们想要联系您或者跟进事情，可以在哪里找到您？
And how can listeners be useful to you?
听众如何对你有用？
Raaz Herzberg: Find me on LinkedIn, and yeah, no apply.
Raaz Herzberg：在 LinkedIn 上找到我，是的，不需要申请。
We'd love great people who are learners, which I think is what this podcast is all about.
我们喜欢优秀的学习者，我认为这就是这个播客的意义所在。
So definitely, the right place to find the right people.
所以绝对是，在合适的地方找到合适的人。
Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
Raaz, thank you so much.
拉兹，非常感谢你。
Raaz Herzberg: Thank you so much for having me.
拉兹·赫茨伯格：非常感谢您邀请我。
Bye, everyone.
再见，大家。
Thank you so much for listening.: If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.
非常感谢您的收听。：如果您发现此内容有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。
Also, please consider giving us a rating, or leaving a review, as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.
另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。
Bye, everyone.
再见，大家。
Thank you so much for listening.: You can find all past episodes, or learn more about the show at lennysodcasts.com.
非常感谢您的收听。：您可以找到所有过去的剧集，或者在 lennysodcasts.com 上了解有关该节目的更多信息。
See you in the next episode.
下一集见。