'Land your dream job in today’s market: negotiation tactics, job search councils, more | Phyl Terry'

Phyl Terry: When you're looking for a job, you need a spear and not a net.

菲尔·特里：当你找工作时，你需要的是矛而不是网。

What happens when we're building a product?

当我们构建产品时会发生什么？

Same thing, right?

同样的事情，对吧？

We want this product to be for everyone, but we've learned with product market fit that doesn't work.

我们希望这款产品适合所有人，但我们发现产品市场契合度是行不通的。

We need a narrow, clear focus.

我们需要一个狭窄、明确的焦点。

Lenny Rachitsky: How did you realize this is a really powerful method versus the way people normally look for jobs?

Lenny Rachitsky：与人们通常找工作的方式相比，你是如何意识到这是一种非常强大的方法？

Phyl Terry: While it's hard to figure out your candidate market fit, it's also a relief to know it's not about you.

Phyl Terry：虽然很难确定你的候选人是否适合市场，但知道这与你无关也让人松了一口气。

So what I ask people to do is I ask them to think about what they want and what they don't want.

所以我要求人们做的是让他们思考他们想要什么和不想要什么。

Now, you might not think that that's a radical step, Lenny, but most people don't do that.

现在，你可能不认为这是一个激进的步骤，莱尼，但大多数人都不会这样做。

When they get laid off, they spray and pray.

当他们被解雇时，他们会喷水并祈祷。

Lenny Rachitsky: This is very much like a product person thinks about new product.

Lenny Rachitsky：这很像产品人员对新产品的思考。

Phyl Terry: There's no I in team.

Phyl Terry：团队里没有我。

Well, there is an I in village, and the I in village is that when you start to interview and negotiate, you've got to be in charge.

嗯，村里有一个我，村里的我就是当你开始采访和谈判时，你必须负责。

I want you to play to win, not not to lose.

我希望你打球是为了赢，而不是为了不输。

Lenny Rachitsky: Is there anything else that you think might be helpful to people looking for jobs?

Lenny Rachitsky：您认为还有什么可能对找工作的人有帮助的吗？

Phyl Terry: If someone did this, it would blow my mind.

Phyl Terry：如果有人这样做，我一定会大吃一惊。

I would hire them on the spot.

我会当场雇用他们。

Lenny Rachitsky: Today my guest is Phyl Terry.

Lenny Rachitsky：今天我的客人是Phyl Terry。

Phyl is the author of Never Search Alone, which I've seen so many people reference as the most impactful thing they read for helping them find a job.

菲尔是《永远不要独自寻找》一书的作者，我看到很多人将其视为帮助他们找到工作的最有影响力的书。

Once you listen to this episode, you'll see why.

当你听完这一集后，你就会明白为什么。

Lenny Rachitsky: Prior to this book, Phyl was on the founding team of the first company that Amazon acquired back in the '90s, and then was CEO of the pioneering product and customer experience consulting firm Creative Good for over 15 years, where Phyl and the team had companies like Apple, Facebook, Microsoft, and hundreds of other companies as customers.

Lenny Rachitsky：在本书出版之前，Phyl 是亚马逊在上世纪 90 年代收购的第一家公司的创始团队成员之一，随后担任先锋产品和客户体验咨询公司 Creative Good 的首席执行官超过 15 年，Phyl 和团队的客户包括苹果、Facebook、微软等数百家公司。

Phyl also co-authored Customers Included, has written articles for the Harvard Business Review, and has delivered more than 500 keynotes to companies like Apple and Microsoft.

Phyl 还与人合着了《Customers Included》，为《哈佛商业评论》撰写文章，并为 Apple 和 Microsoft 等公司发表了 500 多场主题演讲。

This episode is for anyone struggling to find a job or unhappy in the job that they're in.

本集适合所有正在努力寻找工作或对目前的工作不满意的人。

I promise you, the time you put into listening to this episode will help you find a job that you love.

我向你保证，你花在听这集的时间将帮助你找到一份你喜欢的工作。

Lenny Rachitsky: If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube.

Lenny Rachitsky：如果您喜欢这个播客，请不要忘记订阅并在您最喜欢的播客应用程序或 YouTube 中关注它。

It's the best way to avoid missing feature episodes and helps the podcast tremendously.

这是避免错过专题节目的最佳方式，并且对播客有很大帮助。

With that, I bring you Phyl Terry.

接下来，我为您带来菲儿·特里。

Phyl, thank you so much for being here, and welcome to the podcast.

菲尔，非常感谢您来到这里，欢迎来到播客。

Phyl Terry: Oh, what a pleasure.

菲尔·特里：哦，真是太高兴了。

I'm such a fan of yours, Lenny.

我是你的粉丝，莱尼。

Lenny Rachitsky: I'm a huge fan of yours, and I think by the end of this I'll be an even bigger fan of yours.

Lenny Rachitsky：我是你的超级粉丝，我想到最后我会成为你的超级粉丝。

What I'm hoping that we can do in our chat today is to help people who are struggling to find a job and especially struggling to find a job they love, actually find that job with actual tips that they can use today in this week.

我希望我们今天能在聊天中做的是帮助那些正在努力寻找工作，特别是努力寻找自己喜欢的工作的人们，通过他们在本周今天可以使用的实际技巧来真正找到那份工作。

How does that feel to you?

你感觉如何？

Phyl Terry: That's great.

菲尔·特里：那太好了。

We have some practical time-tested stuff that I've developed over the last 25 years with leaders in Silicon Valley, especially in the product community.

我们有一些经过时间考验的实用东西，是我在过去 25 年里与硅谷的领导者（尤其是产品社区的领导者）一起开发的。

We've really brought a product lens to reinventing the job search, Lenny.

莱尼，我们确实从产品角度来重塑求职方式。

Lenny Rachitsky: This is a perfect Venn diagram of topics then.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个完美的主题维恩图。

Lenny Rachitsky: There's a lot of ways I can approach this.

Lenny Rachitsky：我可以通过很多方法来解决这个问题。

I want to start with a question about something that you run, something that you created, something that has had a lot of impact on a lot of people: Job Search Councils.

我想先问一个关于你所经营的、你所创建的、对很多人产生了很大影响的事情的问题：求职委员会。

What is a Job Search Council?

什么是求职委员会？

Phyl Terry: It's a support group of six to eight job seekers, so product people, but it is not just for product people, but the product community really owns this, it comes out of the product community.

Phyl Terry：这是一个由六到八名求职者组成的支持小组，所以是产品人员，但它不仅仅是产品人员，而是产品社区真正拥有它，它来自产品社区。

And what they do is they commit to being with each other, to supporting each other, go through the process of looking for a job and I lay out a methodology, how to figure out your candidate market fit, one of the big concepts in the book.

他们所做的就是承诺彼此在一起，互相支持，完成找工作的过程，我提出了一种方法，如何确定你的候选人市场契合度，这是本书中的重要概念之一。

As well as how to play to win, not not to lose.

以及如何打球才能赢，而不是不输。

You know what I mean?

你知道我的意思？

People are scared in the job search.

人们在找工作时感到害怕。

Here's the thing, Lenny, that people really have a hard time believing, everyone, I mean everyone, and I work with some of the most senior people in Silicon Valley, I'm talking about CEOs of public companies, I'm talking about chief product officers, VPs of product at great brands, everyone, no matter who they are, Lenny, feels insecure and anxious in the job search.

莱尼，事情是这样的，人们真的很难相信，每个人，我是说每个人，我和硅谷一些最资深的人一起工作，我说的是上市公司的首席执行官，我说的是首席产品官，伟大品牌的产品副总裁，每个人，无论他们是谁，莱尼，在找工作时都感到不安全和焦虑。

And if you do it alone, it magnifies that.

如果你单独做，它会放大这一点。

Phyl Terry: So with Job Search Councils, there's this great hack, I didn't invent this, it's baked into human psychology, if you put anxious people together and ask them to be open and vulnerable and to ask for help, and we'll come back to asking for help, it actually flips the anxiety and the fear into hope, into motivation, into accountability and confidence.

菲尔·特里：所以，在求职委员会中，有一个很棒的技巧，不是我发明的，它融入了人类心理学，如果你把焦虑的人放在一起，要求他们开放、脆弱并寻求帮助，我们会回来寻求帮助，它实际上将焦虑和恐惧转化为希望，转化为动力，转化为责任和信心。

It's like, "What ?" It's fantastic.

就像，“什么？”太棒了。

My mother taught me this, we can talk about her at some point, but it's really powerful.

这是我妈妈教我的，我们可以在某个时候谈论她，但这真的很强大。

Lenny Rachitsky: That's amazing.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

Your whole book is called Never Search Alone, so the whole premise of how you recommend people look for jobs is to look for jobs with other people.

你的整本书叫《永远不要独自寻找》，所以你推荐人们找工作的整个前提就是和其他人一起找工作。

You mentioned maybe it's your mom, maybe it's something else, how did you realize this is a really powerful method versus the way people normally look for jobs?

您提到也许是您妈妈，也许是其他东西，您是如何意识到这是一种非常强大的方法，而不是人们通常寻找工作的方式？

Phyl Terry: Yeah.

菲尔·特里：是的。

I set up my first council more than four years ago.

四年前，我成立了第一个理事会。

I set up the first CEO council for internet CEOs in the mid '90s, and then I've run product and CEO council since.

我在 90 年代中期成立了第一个针对互联网 CEO 的 CEO 委员会，此后我一直负责产品和 CEO 委员会。

But it goes all the way back to my mom.

但这可以追溯到我妈妈。

1960, Lenny, 1960, what is that?

1960年，莱尼，1960年，那是什么？

64 years ago?

64年前？

In the San Fernando Valley, my mom was a newly-minted elementary school teacher, and she put together a council of teachers.

在圣费尔南多谷，我妈妈是一名新任小学教师，她组建了一个教师委员会。

That group met for 50 years, 5-0, until the year she died.

这支球队以 5-0 的比分相遇了 50 年，直到她去世的那一年。

They worked together to ask for help and support each other in their careers.

他们一起努力，在事业上互相寻求帮助和支持。

And Lenny, people say to me, "Does this Never Search Alone method work in a tough job market?" And I'll tell you, it comes out of tough job markets.

还有莱尼，人们对我说，“这种从不单独寻找的方法在艰难的就业市场中有效吗？”我会告诉你，它来自艰难的就业市场。

Absolutely, yes.

绝对是的。

Starting with my mom.

从我妈妈开始。

Phyl Terry: So in 1974, my dad...

Phyl Terry：所以在 1974 年，我爸爸...

in 1976 he left and it was just me and my mom and my sister.

1976 年，他离开了，只剩下我、我妈妈和我妹妹。

He had insisted that she stop teaching, so she lost her tenure and everything.

他坚持要求她停止教学，因此她失去了教职和一切。

Her candidate market fit was terrible, but she had her council.

她的候选人市场契合度很差，但她有自己的委员会。

It was the mid '70s, and Lenny, you probably can't imagine how hard it was for a single middle-aged woman with kids looking for a job in Los Angeles in the mid '70s.

那是 70 年代中期，Lenny，你可能无法想象对于 70 年代中期一个带着孩子的单身中年妇女在洛杉矶找工作有多困难。

It was terrible.

太可怕了。

But she had her support group and they held her hand.

但她有她的支持小组，他们握着她的手。

The job she could get, guess what?

她能得到的工作，你猜怎么着？

She had to be an entry level teacher again after having been a senior teacher coaching and advising.

在担任高级教师辅导和建议后，她必须再次担任初级教师。

It was really tough.

这真的很艰难。

So that had a big impact on me.

所以这对我影响很大。

Phyl Terry: And then when the dotcom bubble burst, I was running Creative Good, and suddenly there was a depression.

菲尔·特里：当互联网泡沫破灭时，我正在经营 Creative Good，突然间出现了萧条。

And suddenly I'm helping hundreds of people try to figure out their job search.

突然之间，我正在帮助数百人尝试寻找工作。

So it's been going for a number of years, but it goes back to my mom.

这种情况已经持续了很多年，但可以追溯到我妈妈。

I dedicate the book to her and the community we've built.

我将这本书献给她和我们建立的社区。

That's beautiful.: Let me tell you about a product called Sidebar.

太漂亮了。：让我告诉你一个叫做 Sidebar 的产品。

The most successful people that I know surround themselves with incredible peers.

我认识的最成功的人周围都是令人难以置信的同龄人。

When you have a trusted group of peers, you can discuss challenges you're having, get career advice, and just gut-check how you're thinking about your work, your career, and your life.

当你有一群值得信赖的同事时，你可以讨论你所面临的挑战，获得职业建议，并仔细检查你对工作、职业和生活的看法。

This gives you more than a leg up, it gives you a leap forward.

这不仅能让你进步，还能让你向前飞跃。

Having a group of trusted and amazing peers was key to my career growth, and this is the Sidebar ethos.

拥有一群值得信赖且出色的同事是我职业发展的关键，这就是 Sidebar 精神。

That's beautiful.: But it's hard to build this trusted group of peers on your own.

太漂亮了。：但是很难独自建立这个值得信赖的同行群体。

Sidebar is a platform for senior tech professionals, director to C-level, to advance in their career.

Sidebar 是一个为高级技术专业人士、总监到 C 级人员提供职业发展平台。

Members are matched into peer groups to lean on for unbiased opinions, diverse perspectives, and raw feedback.

成员被匹配到同侪群体中，以获取公正的意见、不同的观点和原始反馈。

Guided by world-class programming and facilitation all running on Sidebar's technology, Sidebar enables you to get focused, tactical feedback at every step of your career journey.

在 Sidebar 技术上运行的世界一流的编程和便利性的指导下，Sidebar 使您能够在职业生涯的每一步获得集中的战术反馈。

If you're listening to this podcast, you're already committed to growth.

如果您正在收听此播客，那么您已经致力于成长。

Sidebar is the missing piece to catalyze your career.

侧边栏是促进您职业生涯的缺失部分。

93% of members say Sidebar helped them achieve a significant positive change in their career.

93% 的会员表示 Sidebar 帮助他们在职业生涯中实现了重大的积极变化。

Check them out at sidebar.com/lenny.

请访问 sidebar.com/lenny 查看它们。

That's beautiful.: This episode is brought to you by Sprig.

太美了。：这一集是由 Sprig 为您带来的。

What if product teams knew exactly what to build to reach their goals?

如果产品团队确切地知道要构建什么来实现他们的目标呢？

From increasing conversion to boosting engagement, these challenges require a deep understanding of your users, something that you can't get from product analytics alone.

从提高转化率到提高参与度，这些挑战需要对用户有深入的了解，这是单靠产品分析无法获得的。

Meet Sprig, a product experience platform that generates AI-powered opportunities to continuously improve your product at scale.

Sprig 是一个产品体验平台，可生成人工智能驱动的机会来持续大规模改进您的产品。

First, Sprig captures your product experience in real time through heat maps, replays, surveys, and feedback studies.

首先，Sprig 通过热图、重播、调查和反馈研究实时捕获您的产品体验。

Then Sprig's industry-leading AI instantly analyzes all of your product experience data to generate real- time insights.

然后 Sprig 行业领先的人工智能会立即分析您的所有产品体验数据，以生成实时见解。

Sprig AI goes even further with actionable product recommendations to drive revenue, retention, and user satisfaction.

Sprig AI 更进一步，提供可操作的产品建议，以提高收入、保留率和用户满意度。

Join product teams at Figma and at Notion by uncovering AI-powered product opportunities at scale.

加入 Figma 和 Notion 的产品团队，大规模发现人工智能驱动的产品机会。

Visit sprig.com/lenny to book a demo and get a $75 gift card.

请访问 sprig.com/lenny 预订演示并获得 75 美元的礼品卡。

That's S-P-R-I-G.com/lenny.

那是 S-P-R-I-G.com/lenny。

That's beautiful.: There's a lot of elements that you mentioned that we're going to dig into, so job candidate fit, playing to win.

太棒了。：您提到的很多元素我们都将深入研究，因此求职者适合，为获胜而努力。

You touched a little bit this idea of settling, figuring out what to settle for.

你接触到了一点安定的想法，弄清楚要安定下来的是什么。

Your mom took a job that's below what she was doing before, so I want to chat about all these things.

你妈妈现在的工作比她以前做的要低，所以我想谈谈所有这些事情。

A little bit more on these councils.

关于这些委员会的更多信息。

What's the scale of these?

这些规模有多大？

So I think it's going to blow people's mind just how many of these are happening and -

所以我认为有多少这样的事情正在发生，这会让人们大吃一惊——

Phyl Terry: We have launched more than 2,000 of these Lenny, 2,000, and they're completely free, completely 100% free.

Phyl Terry：我们已经推出了 2,000 多个这样的 Lenny，2,000 个，而且它们是完全免费的，完全 100% 免费。

It's volunteer-driven.

这是志愿者驱动的。

We have hundreds of pages of tools.

我们有数百页的工具。

We've done a Slack community.

我们已经建立了一个 Slack 社区。

We have a free matching program.

我们有一个免费的匹配计划。

You can sign up and we'll match you and put you in a council.

您可以注册，我们将为您匹配并让您加入理事会。

Then we'll give you training, live training.

然后我们会给你培训，现场培训。

There's so many volunteers.

志愿者真多啊

We have 20,000 hours of volunteer work that's already been put into this, Lenny.

莱尼，我们已经为此投入了 20,000 个小时的志愿者工作。

Lenny Rachitsky: You said that it's free.

Lenny Rachitsky：你说过它是免费的。

I know these things aren't free to run.

我知道这些东西不是可以自由运行的。

Lenny Rachitsky: I saw somewhere that you mentioned that basically all your book sales and also just your own money you spend on running these councils.

Lenny Rachitsky：我在某个地方看到您提到，基本上您所有的图书销售以及您自己的钱都花在了运营这些委员会上。

Talk about that for a little bit.

稍微谈谈这个。

Phyl Terry: Yeah, actually two times the book sales are going into running this.

菲尔·特里：是的，实际上，运行这个项目的图书销量是两倍。

So we have 20,000 hours of volunteer time, but you also have to pay for technology and you have to pay for certain kinds of support.

所以我们有 20,000 小时的志愿者时间，但你也必须为技术付费，并且必须为某些类型的支持付费。

Later we will talk about this, and we're always looking for more volunteers.

稍后我们会讨论这个，我们一直在寻找更多的志愿者。

I have a process for people to apply if they're interested in being a part of the team.

如果人们有兴趣成为团队的一员，我有一个申请流程。

But yeah, I have dedicated this to my mom, and I'm giving everything to it.

但是，是的，我把它献给了我的妈妈，我为此付出了一切。

Lenny Rachitsky: What's the general structure?

Lenny Rachitsky：总体结构是怎样的？

If someone's trying to think about how these things work, if they want to join these as we go through it, how do they work?

如果有人试图思考这些事情是如何运作的，如果他们想在我们经历这些事情时加入其中，那么它们是如何运作的？

Phyl Terry: Okay, so you apply at phyl.org, P-H-Y-L, Phyl with a Y.

Phyl Terry：好的，所以你在 phyl.org 上申请，P-H-Y-L，Phyl 带有 Y。

Again, it's free.

再说一次，它是免费的。

We match you behind the scenes.

我们在幕后为您匹配。

Now, when you apply, we ask, "First of all, are you in a job and looking or are you out of work?" Because we separate those two because they have different cadences.

现在，当您申请时，我们会问：“首先，您是否有工作并正在寻找工作，还是失业了？”因为我们将两者分开是因为它们有不同的节奏。

If you're in a job and looking, we call you a slow seeker because you have a full-time job and you can't work as quickly.

如果您正在工作并正在寻找工作，我们称您为缓慢求职者，因为您有一份全职工作，并且您无法快速工作。

If you're out of work and looking, we call you a fast seeker and we put you in different groups.

如果您失业并正在寻找工作，我们称您为快速求职者，并将您分为不同的组。

Fast seeker or slow seeker.

快速导引头或慢导引头。

We also ask though, are you willing to be a moderator?

但我们也问，你愿意当主持人吗？

Every council needs a moderator, and every moderator is a job seeker who volunteers to do that.

每个委员会都需要一名主持人，而每个主持人都是自愿这样做的求职者。

If you volunteer to moderate, first of all, you get matched faster, and secondly, you get more training and support.

如果您自愿参与审核，首先，您可以更快地获得匹配，其次，您可以获得更多的培训和支持。

Phyl Terry: It's a little bit more work for a lot more benefit.

Phyl Terry：多做一点工作就能获得更多好处。

We've gotten 2,000 moderators, Lenny, it's amazing.

我们有 2,000 名版主，Lenny，这太棒了。

And we feel like we're just beginning.

我们感觉我们才刚刚开始。

So you apply, you get matched, and then you go through an orientation program that we run live where we tell you how this works and what to expect in your first meeting.

所以你申请，你得到匹配，然后你参加我们现场运行的定向计划，我们告诉你这是如何运作的以及在你的第一次会议中期望什么。

And then there's a whole set of agendas and materials and everything in the book as well as everyone gets a free workbook, a 100-page workbook after they join the community with all of the templates and guides and questions.

然后还有一整套议程和材料以及书中的所有内容，每个人在加入社区后都会获得一本免费的工作簿，一本 100 页的工作簿，其中包含所有模板、指南和问题。

And then the moderator pulls you together, you work on Zoom or whatever technology, it's remote typically.

然后主持人把你们拉到一起，你们使用 Zoom 或其他技术工作，通常是远程的。

And you do a first meeting, we call it meeting zero, where you're open and vulnerable.

你进行了第一次会议，我们称之为零次会议，你是开放的、脆弱的。

People share stories about their lives and who they are, builds trust and get a sense of who people are.

人们分享关于他们的生活和他们是谁的故事，建立信任并了解人们是谁。

And then you move into the process.

然后你就进入这个过程。

You meet twice a week typically if you're in a fast seeker council and every two weeks if you're in a slow seeker.

如果您属于快速寻求者理事会，则通常每周举行两次会议；如果您属于缓慢寻求者理事会，则通常每两周举行一次会议。

So that's the start of the answer.

这就是答案的开始。

Does that help you think?

这对你思考有帮助吗？

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, really helpful.

Lenny Rachitsky：是的，真的很有帮助。

And then you basically are on this council until you find a job, I imagine.

我想，在你找到工作之前，你基本上都是这个委员会的成员。

Lenny Rachitsky: Is there anything you can share around the impact you've seen?

Lenny Rachitsky：关于您所看到的影响，您有什么可以分享的吗？

The reason I reached out to you to come on this podcast is I just started seeing people mentioning that they found a job and maybe the thing that helped them most was your book and being on one of these councils.

我联系你来参加这个播客的原因是我刚刚开始看到人们提到他们找到了一份工作，也许对他们最有帮助的是你的书和参加这些委员会之一。

I imagine there's a lot of stories you hear and a lot of numbers you could see of just people succeeding going through, so what can you share about just the impact you've seen?

我想您听到过很多故事，看到过很多关于成功人士所经历的数字，那么您能分享一下您所看到的影响吗？

Phyl Terry: Well, I posted on LinkedIn today that I was going to be on your podcast and I asked people if they wanted to share stories with me, and over email and LinkedIn, I've been flooded with stories from people who are in the process or people who did it.

菲尔·特里：嗯，我今天在 LinkedIn 上发帖说我将参加你的播客，我问人们是否愿意与我分享故事，通过电子邮件和 LinkedIn，我收到了大量来自正在进行或已完成此过程的人的故事。

If you like, I can pull up and share a few of those if that would be helpful.

如果您愿意，我可以拉出并分享其中的一些内容，如果这会有帮助的话。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, if there's a few you have there, that'd be really sweet.

Lenny Rachitsky：是的，如果你有一些，那就太好了。

Phyl Terry: Okay, so Justin Meats is a chief product officer who's gone through the process and he posted on LinkedIn today.

Phyl Terry：好的，Justin Meats 是一位首席产品官，他已经完成了整个流程，并且今天在 LinkedIn 上发布了相关信息。

He said, "As a product leader, I love how it has you apply the product process to your career." This comes out of the product world, it's a product lens on the job search, and it's for everyone, but it really makes sense for product people.

他说：“作为产品领导者，我喜欢它如何将产品流程应用到你的职业生涯中。”这来自产品世界，是求职时的产品视角，适合所有人，但对产品人员来说确实很有意义。

And he says, "Not only does your JSC help bounce ideas and help your job search, they also help you keep going and accountable when you're low on emotional energy."

他说：“你的 JSC 不仅可以帮助你激发想法、帮助你寻找工作，还能在你情绪低落时帮助你继续前进并承担起责任。”

Phyl Terry: I talk about this in the book, Lenny, I say, "Look, most people think, 'What's the most important thing to manage during your job search?'" They think, well, maybe it's their resume or LinkedIn profile or their ability to network or candidate market fit, a concept I introduced I think is really important.

菲尔·特里：我在书中谈到了这一点，莱尼，我说，“看，大多数人都认为，‘在求职过程中要管理的最重要的事情是什么？’”他们认为，也许是他们的简历或 LinkedIn 个人资料，或者他们的人际网络或候选人市场适应能力，我认为这个概念非常重要。

All those things are really important, but the most important thing to manage is your emotional balance.

所有这些事情都非常重要，但最重要的是管理你的情绪平衡。

I talk about your emotional balance sheet.

我谈论你的情感资产负债表。

And for many job seekers, they have more liabilities than assets on their old balance sheets.

对于许多求职者来说，他们旧资产负债表上的负债多于资产。

They have more fear and anxiety, they feel demoralized, they have a hard time going.

他们有更多的恐惧和焦虑，他们感到士气低落，他们很难前进。

That's why these things are so important.

这就是为什么这些事情如此重要。

Phyl Terry: He also says, "Hey, it's a journey, and the more you embrace it, the more you learn about yourself." And he says...

菲尔·特里：他还说，“嘿，这是一段旅程，你越拥抱它，你就越了解自己。”他说……

and this is important Lenny.

这很重要，莱尼。

I don't have a magic wand that especially in a down market today that magically gets a job.

我没有魔杖，尤其是在当今的低迷市场，它可以神奇地找到工作。

It's hard.

这很难。

The job search, it can be hard and humiliating at times.

找工作有时会很困难，而且很丢脸。

I know.

我知道。

This is why I want to create this community, why we're doing this.

这就是我想创建这个社区的原因，也是我们这样做的原因。

We want to give you a place where you can really get the support when it's hard and humiliating.

我们希望为您提供一个在您遇到困难和屈辱时能够真正获得支持的地方。

But the process will ultimately set you up for success if you follow it.

但如果你遵循这个过程，最终将为你带来成功。

Phyl Terry: This one woman who just started, she's a senior product leader in a major financial institution, and she said she couldn't believe the level of support and openness and vulnerability.

Phyl Terry：这是一位刚入行的女性，她是一家大型金融机构的高级产品负责人，她说她无法相信如此程度的支持、开放性和脆弱性。

We really emphasize people being open and vulnerable, and I've learned a lot about how to create that environment.

我们确实强调人们的开放和脆弱，我学到了很多关于如何创造这种环境的知识。

It ties back to asking for help, which I know we'll talk about more at some point.

这与寻求帮助有关，我知道我们会在某个时候详细讨论这一点。

But when you create that, it's amazing what people can do together, Lenny.

但当你创造出它时，人们可以一起做的事情真是令人惊奇，莱尼。

Amazing.

惊人的。

Lenny Rachitsky: Just to reinforce this point, people listening may be like, "I'm just going to keep looking for a job.

Lenny Rachitsky：为了强调这一点，人们可能会说，“我只是要继续找工作。

I'll use all this advice.

我会利用所有这些建议。

I don't need a group." What's your best pitch, again, to help people see the value of doing this in a group and joining a council or starting a council?

我不需要团体。”再说一次，你最好的宣传是什么，可以帮助人们认识到在团体中这样做并加入理事会或成立理事会的价值？

Phyl Terry: I acknowledge that that's a reaction that some people have.

Phyl Terry：我承认这是某些人的反应。

That's totally valid.

这是完全正确的。

This is unusual, what we're doing here.

我们在这里所做的事情很不寻常。

This is not how people look for a job.

这不是人们找工作的方式。

We're trying to disrupt the job search process.

我们正试图扰乱求职过程。

Lenny, this is my quick story.

莱尼，这是我的简短故事。

We had a great interview with a couple.

我们对一对夫妇进行了一次很棒的采访。

Two of them were product leaders.

其中两人是产品负责人。

They had met at Amazon and then had gone to have great careers.

他们在亚马逊相识，然后各自开创了伟大的职业生涯。

They both got laid off.

他们俩都被解雇了。

The woman joined a Job Search Council right away.

这位女士立即加入了求职委员会。

She loved it, she raved about it.

她喜欢它，她对它赞不绝口。

Her husband, who was also an engineer, was a little more introverted.

她的丈夫也是一名工程师，性格比较内向。

He's like, "Ah, this isn't for me." She said, "No, listen, you won't...

他说，“啊，这不适合我。”她说：“不，听着，你不会...

" And finally he read the book.

“最后他读了这本书。

Because the book, it works for the product mind and for the engineering mind, it makes sense.

因为这本书适用于产品思维和工程思维，所以它很有意义。

He said, "I'll join a council, but I'm not going to be field connected to people.

他说：“我会加入一个委员会，但我不会与人们进行现场联系。

But I'll do this because you asked me to."

但我会这样做，因为你要求我这样做。”

Phyl Terry: He sat in the interview, we have it up on the side, he was like, "Oh my God, I couldn't believe it.

菲尔·特里：他坐在采访中，我们把它放在一边，他就像，“天哪，我简直不敢相信。

The level of trust we created right off the bat I've never experienced in my life.

我们立即建立的信任程度是我一生中从未经历过的。

It's really truly accountability, the motivation, the ability to hang in there." And so I say to people, " Look, try it." We have all these videos on our website with all these people talking.

这真的是责任、动力、坚持下去的能力。”所以我对人们说，“看，试试吧。”我们的网站上有所有这些视频，所有这些人都在谈论。

Go look at it.

去看看吧。

If you want to read the book first and see if you think this makes sense.

如果你想先读一下这本书，看看你认为这是否有道理。

But try it.

但尝试一下。

You will be shocked in a positive way.

你会以积极的方式感到震惊。

You'll discover how delightful it is.

你会发现这是多么令人愉快。

Phyl Terry: We live in a world where there's increasing loneliness, Lenny.

菲尔·特里：我们生活在一个孤独感与日俱增的世界，莱尼。

There's so much research about this, the Surgeon General's book, everybody talking about...

关于这个问题有很多研究，外科医生的书，每个人都在谈论......

And it's more detrimental to our health than smoking cigarettes.

而且它比吸烟对我们的健康危害更大。

Bowling Alone famously came out 25 years ago.

Bowling Alone 于 25 年前问世，广为人知。

We live in a world where people have not experienced community in a powerful way.

我们生活在一个人们没有以强有力的方式体验社区的世界。

I don't mean message boards, I mean real community.

我指的不是留言板，而是真正的社区。

And I think you have a sense of this because you do real community.

我认为你有这种感觉，因为你做的是真正的社区。

And that's what we're talking about here.

这就是我们在这里讨论的内容。

It's real community but with some practical tools and techniques, which we'll talk about.

这是真正的社区，但有一些实用的工具和技术，我们将讨论这些。

What do you think?

你怎么认为？

Is that a good response to the-

这是对——的一个很好的回应吗？

Lenny Rachitsky: I'm sold.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我被卖了。

I don't need a job, but I want to join one.

我不需要一份工作，但我想加入一份工作。

You also just had a really beautiful way of describing these programs as a safety net for people.

您还以一种非常漂亮的方式将这些计划描述为人们的安全网。

Phyl Terry: If we go up to the 30,000-foot level, what are we doing here?

Phyl Terry：如果我们上升到 30,000 英尺的高度，我们在这里做什么？

What's our mission?

我们的使命是什么？

We're building a private safety net for all those who've been laid off or let go.

我们正在为所有被解雇或被解雇的人建立一个私人安全网。

Look, we're not going to do what the government does with unemployment insurance, we're never going to be able to do something like that.

看，我们不会像政府在失业保险方面所做的那样，我们永远无法做那样的事情。

But the government's never going to be able to innovate around how to actually look for a job.

但政府永远无法在如何实际寻找工作方面进行创新。

That's where we come in.

这就是我们进来的地方。

We are trying to build this.

我们正在努力建立这个。

We talked about this earlier, Lenny, creative destruction is this economic concept that sits at the heart of capitalism.

莱尼，我们之前谈到过，创造性破坏是资本主义核心的经济概念。

Creative destruction basically says, "Under capitalism, it's dynamic.

创造性破坏基本上是说，“在资本主义下，它是动态的。

New products and services displace or disrupt old products and services, companies and methods." It's why our economy has grown sixfold over the last a hundred years.

新产品和服务取代或颠覆旧产品和服务、公司和方法。”这就是为什么我们的经济在过去一百年里增长了六倍。

It's remarkable.

这很了不起。

It's why we have this amazing multi-trillion dollar economy.

这就是为什么我们拥有如此惊人的数万亿美元经济。

But it comes with some negative unintended consequences, which is that people both in jobs and out of jobs, they're anxious and fearful.

但它也带来了一些意想不到的负面后果，那就是人们无论是在职还是失业，都会感到焦虑和恐惧。

There's no program that addresses that.

没有程序可以解决这个问题。

Phyl Terry: That's what we're going after here.

Phyl Terry：这就是我们所追求的目标。

We're trying to be the solve for the unintended consequences of the thing that is so positive in many ways and that we as product people love because we get to build new products and displace old products.

我们正在努力解决这个在很多方面都非常积极的事情所带来的意想不到的后果，并且我们作为产品人们喜欢它，因为我们可以构建新产品并取代旧产品。

I'll just say one more thing.

我再多说一件事。

The reason you know this creative destruction works so well is if you compare our economy to the late Soviet Union's economy.

如果你将我们的经济与前苏联的经济进行比较，你就会知道这种创造性破坏如此有效。

They were a planned economy with no creative destruction.

他们实行的是计划经济，没有创造性破坏。

So there was no innovation, and eventually it just failed.

所以没有创新，最终就失败了。

It just collapsed.

它刚刚崩溃了。

It's remarkable, this is a huge country with a massive military and nuclear weapons, but they couldn't make their economy work.

值得注意的是，这是一个拥有大量军事和核武器的大国，但他们无法让经济运转。

Why?

为什么？

Because they didn't have this element.

因为他们没有这个要素。

So it's something to celebrate, but as we celebrate it, we need to have something that addresses the negative unintended consequences.

所以这是值得庆祝的事情，但当我们庆祝它时，我们需要有一些东西来解决负面的意外后果。

All of us who benefited from this, I think it's our duty to do something about it.

我们所有从中受益的人，我认为我们有责任为此做点什么。

Lenny Rachitsky: That is beautiful.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：那太美了。

You're very good at this.

你很擅长这个。

Let's shift to talking about tactics.

让我们转向谈论战术。

Let's talk about some of the things that you've shared.

让我们谈谈您分享的一些事情。

So you've mentioned things like candidate market fit, playing to win.

所以你提到了诸如候选人市场契合度、为获胜而战之类的事情。

Go wherever you want to go.

去任何你想去的地方。

Let's pick a few and then dive in.

让我们选几个然后深入研究。

Phyl Terry: Candidate market fit is probably the most important job search tactic in the book, aside from the Job Search Council, and it may be the thing I'm known for.

Phyl Terry：除了求职委员会之外，候选人市场契合度可能是书中最重要的求职策略，这可能也是我出名的原因。

When I die, they coin candidate market fit.

当我去世时，他们创造了适合市场的候选人。

So here's the thing, and this is why this is so important in a down market, when you're looking for a job, you're in a marketplace with supply and demand characteristics.

事情是这样的，这就是为什么这在低迷的市场中如此重要，当你寻找工作时，你处于一个具有供需特征的市场中。

So if there's a lot of supply, which there is right now in the tech world because there's been a lot of layoffs, the overall economy, there's been net job additions, Lenny, but those have been primarily in healthcare and government.

因此，如果有大量的供应，现在科技界有大量的供应，因为有大量的裁员，整体经济，有净就业增加，莱尼，但这些主要是在医疗保健和政府部门。

There've been net job losses in tech.

科技行业出现了净失业。

We could talk about why that is, but that's the world that we're in.

我们可以讨论为什么会这样，但这就是我们所处的世界。

Phyl Terry: So let's say you're a director of product.

Phyl Terry：假设您是产品总监。

Two years ago when the economy was great in tech and the job market was great in tech, you could probably get a VP of product role.

两年前，当经济在科技领域发展良好、就业市场在科技领域发展良好时，你可能会获得产品副总裁的职位。

What about today?

今天呢？

Well, today your candidate market fit's been pushed down because there's a bunch of VPs of products who are going to take a director role.

好吧，今天你的候选人市场契合度已经被推低了，因为有一群产品副总裁将担任总监角色。

Guess what?

你猜怎么着？

That means you might not be able to get the director role you might need to get a senior manager role or whatever.

这意味着您可能无法获得总监职位，而您可能需要获得高级经理职位或其他职位。

Now, the important thing about this is it's not a personal segment about you.

现在，重要的是这不是关于您的个人部分。

It's the marketplace.

这是市场。

And that's what so many people today in their notes to me said, that it was such a relief for them.

这就是今天很多人在给我的笔记中所说的，这对他们来说是一种解脱。

While it's hard to figure out your candidate market fit, it's also a relief to know it's not about you.

虽然很难确定你的候选人是否适合市场，但知道这与你无关也让你松了口气。

Phyl Terry: So what I ask people to do is the first radical step I ask them to take is to think about what they want and what they don't want.

菲尔·特里：所以我要求人们做的第一个激进的步骤就是思考他们想要什么和不想要什么。

Now, you might not think that that's a radical step, Lenny, but most people don't do that.

现在，你可能不认为这是一个激进的步骤，莱尼，但大多数人都不会这样做。

When they get laid off, they spray and pray.

当他们被解雇时，他们会喷水并祈祷。

That's the typical, "Let me just...

这就是典型的“让我...

" Wait a minute, just take a moment.

“等一下，等一下。

They're like, "Oh, don't slow me down." I'm like, "I'm going to slow you down to go fast." In fact, what our data shows is that the average job search in the Job Search Council from beginning to end is three months.

他们就像，“哦，别让我慢下来。”我想，“我会让你放慢速度，让你走得更快。”事实上，我们的数据显示的是，求职委员会的求职从开始到结束的平均时间是三个月。

If you look at the national data for job search, it's three to six months.

如果你看一下全国找工作的数据，那就是三到六个月。

So we are at the very low end of the national average.

所以我们处于全国平均水平的极低端。

So this is not a slow down, take two years, whatever.

所以这并不是一个放慢速度的过程，需要两年时间，无论如何。

No, no. Most people need to put food on the plate, so it's a slow down at first.

不，不。大多数人需要将食物放在盘子上，所以一开始速度会很慢。

And we as product people should understand this.

我们作为产品人员应该理解这一点。

You want to think about your strategy.

你需要考虑一下你的策略。

You want to understand the marketplace, your customer, the product market fit.

您想要了解市场、您的客户、产品市场契合度。

You're not going to just go...

你不会就这样走...

Phyl Terry: You're going to iterate.

Phyl Terry：你要迭代。

First step, what do you want and what don't you want?

第一步，你想要什么，不想要什么？

That's the Mnookin two-pager named after Allison Mnookin, who was a member of one of our product councils.

这是一款 Mnookin 两页纸，以 Allison Mnookin 命名，她是我们产品委员会的成员之一。

So we run product councils and general management CEO councils for people in jobs.

因此，我们为在职人员设立产品委员会和总经理首席执行官委员会。

That's a paid program that companies pay for.

这是公司付费的付费项目。

It's out of that program helping those people that I developed this methodology that we're now as a community giving to the world.

正是在这个帮助那些人的计划中，我开发了这种方法，我们现在作为一个社区向世界提供这种方法。

So Allison, she was the GM at Intuit, and then she spun out a division and ran it as CEO, and she's now a professor at the Harvard Business School.

艾莉森，她是 Intuit 的总经理，然后她成立了一个部门并担任首席执行官，现在她是哈佛商学院的教授。

And about 15 years ago, she was in transition and we talked and she created and we created this thing we called now the Mnookin two-pager.

大约 15 年前，她正处于转型期，我们交谈，她创造了我们，我们创造了这个我们现在称之为 Mnookin 两页纸的东西。

I told her, "Allison, I'm going to make your name famous." That's my job.

我告诉她，“艾莉森，我会让你的名字出名。”这就是我的工作。

I love her.

我爱她。

Phyl Terry: She's wonderful.

菲儿·特里：她很棒。

And it's just a simple thing, what do you, what don't you like and you create it and then you share it in your council.

这只是一件简单的事情，你喜欢什么，不喜欢什么，然后你创建它，然后在你的理事会中分享它。

And here's something cool, Lenny.

这是一些很酷的东西，莱尼。

Let's say you and I are in a Job Search Council.

假设你和我都在求职委员会中。

You share yours, I share your mine.

你分享你的，我分享你我的。

Now you see a few things about what you don't like.

现在您会看到一些您不喜欢的事情。

I'm like, "Hot damn, I also don't like those.

我想，“该死，我也不喜欢那些。

I forgot, I got to add that." Or you say a thing about what you like, you're like, "Oh, wow, no, that's really important to me, and I left that out." So that's part of the shared learning environment.

我忘了，我得补充一下。”或者你说出你喜欢什么，你会说，“哦，哇，不，这对我来说真的很重要，但我把它遗漏了。”这是共享学习环境的一部分。

I'm asking you to do these, but with others who you're walking it through.

我要求你做这些，但要和你正在经历的其他人一起做。

Phyl Terry: Now, once you have done that Mnookin two-pager, and it's a draft, you don't have to get it fine, and not everyone knows exactly what they want, by the way, this is important, especially younger people.

菲尔·特里：现在，一旦你完成了《姆努金》的两页纸，而且是草稿，你就不必把它写得很好，而且并不是每个人都确切地知道他们想要什么，顺便说一句，这很重要，尤其是年轻人。

But sometimes mid-career people too, they're like, "Oh, I'm not...

但有时职业生涯中期的人也会这样，“哦，我不是......

" So I'm not asking you to make a final decision, no, no. We're going to iterate.

“所以我不是要求你做出最终决定，不，不。我们将迭代。

Okay, we're product people, we're going to iterate.

好吧，我们是产品人员，我们要迭代。

Phyl Terry: So we're going to take this Mnookin two-pager, this draft that shared with our council, and we're going to go out and do a listening tour.

菲尔·特里：所以我们将带着这份 Mnookin 两页纸、这份与我们理事会共享的草案，我们将出去进行一次聆听之旅。

Because guess what?

因为你猜怎么着？

In the job search, we're the product.

在求职过程中，我们就是产品。

We're our skills and experience.

我们的技能和经验就是我们的。

That's the product that we're bringing to market.

这就是我们要推向市场的产品。

So we have to go see what the market wants.

所以我们必须去看看市场想要什么。

Now we have a sense of what we want, but what does the market want and what does some of our trusted friends, what do they think about what I want and what I'm a fit for?

现在我们知道了我们想要什么，但是市场想要什么，我们一些值得信赖的朋友又有何想法，他们对我想要什么以及我适合什么有什么看法？

And what do they think I'm a fit for now given the market conditions that we have?

鉴于我们现有的市场条件，他们认为我现在适合做什么？

Phyl Terry: I will tell you, people are terrified to do the listening tour.

菲尔·特里：我告诉你，人们害怕进行聆听之旅。

They're like, "I don't know, what am I going to hear from people?" Because I asked them to ask a golden question, if you were in my shoes, how would you approach this?

他们会说，“我不知道，我会从人们那里听到什么？”因为我让他们问了一个黄金问题，如果你处在我的位置，你会如何处理这个问题？

I call that the golden question.

我称之为黄金问题。

It's such a creative question.

这是一个很有创意的问题。

It really opens the conversation.

它确实打开了对话的大门。

But they think, "Oh no, people are going to tell me all this stuff." No, mostly people tell you this.

但他们认为，“哦，不，人们会告诉我所有这些事情。”不，大多数人都会告诉你这一点。

Once in a while you get a helpful piece of critique, "Oh, you make everything a priority, in which case nothing is, and you could work on that." Super helpful to know.

偶尔你会得到一些有用的批评，“哦，你把一切都放在优先位置，在这种情况下什么都不是，你可以在这方面努力。”知道超级有帮助。

We all have stuff to work on.

我们都有事情要做。

Phyl Terry: But I will tell you, once people do the listening tour, they're blown away.

菲尔·特里：但我会告诉你，一旦人们进行了聆听之旅，他们就会被震撼。

I mean, the people who are in jobs, they love, they love helping others if it's done well.

我的意思是，那些有工作的人，他们热爱，如果做得好的话，他们喜欢帮助别人。

Because guess what?

因为你猜怎么着？

They're also anxious themselves, and they want to give back.

他们自己也很焦虑，他们想要回馈。

They want to feel like they're supporting people.

他们想要感觉自己在支持别人。

You actually end up, and we're going to talk about this, but when you ask someone for help while you've done your homework, you're thoughtful, they want to help you even more.

你实际上最终会结束，我们将讨论这个，但是当你在完成作业时向某人寻求帮助时，你是体贴的，他们想为你提供更多帮助。

They become invested in you.

他们对你产生了投资。

So the secret about the listening tour is that not only are you getting market research customer feedback on your fit, you're also creating a whole group of listening posts, people who are invested in your success.

因此，聆听之旅的秘密在于，您不仅可以获得市场研究客户对您的适合度的反馈，还可以创建一整组聆听帖子，这些人为您的成功投资。

Lenny Rachitsky: Just to clarify on that specific point of this listening tour, you write this Mnookin two pager, which basically describes what you want, what you don't want, goals you have, what you hate.

Lenny Rachitsky：只是为了澄清这次聆听之旅的具体要点，您编写了这个 Mnookin 两个寻呼机，它基本上描述了您想要什么，您不想要什么，您有什么目标，您讨厌什么。

And the listening tour is find colleagues, friends, people that are other, say, product managers and get their feedback on what you want, what you don't want, what you hate, what your goals are.

倾听之旅是找到同事、朋友、其他人，比如产品经理，并获得他们对你想要什么、你不想要什么、你讨厌什么、你的目标的反馈。

Phyl Terry: And what they're seeing in the market, what they think you're a fit for.

Phyl Terry：他们在市场上看到了什么，他们认为你适合什么。

Lenny Rachitsky: I see.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我明白了。

Got it.

知道了。

So it's like, "Oh, this is unrealistic.

所以就像是，“哦，这是不现实的。

You're not going to get this."

你不会得到这个。”

Phyl Terry: And we see both things, Lenny.

菲尔·特里：我们看到了这两件事，莱尼。

So some people underestimate their fit, others overestimate it or don't recognize that changed market condition.

因此，有些人低估了自己的适合度，另一些人则高估了自己的适合度，或者没有意识到市场状况的变化。

The other thing I'll say is that in the book I have three different kinds of structured listening tour conversations.

我要说的另一件事是，在书中我有三种不同类型的结构化聆听之旅对话。

One I call reverse exit interviews.

我称之为反向离职面谈。

This is people you used to work with before, go ask them, "Hey, what did I do well, what do you think my strengths are?

这是你以前共事过的人，去问他们，“嘿，我哪方面做得好，你认为我的优势是什么？

What do you think I'm a fit for?

你觉得我适合做什么？

Here's what I'm thinking.

这就是我的想法。

Do you think I accurately am projecting myself?" The second is your broader network, and that's where I ask you to do the golden question, "If you were in my shoes...

你认为我准确地投射了自己吗？”第二个是你更广泛的网络，这就是我要求你提出黄金问题的地方，“如果你处于我的立场......

" And then third is recruiters.

“第三是招聘人员。

Phyl Terry: Now, this is an important hack.

Phyl Terry：现在，这是一个重要的技巧。

Recruiters don't like being barraged with, "Get me a job." They do like someone saying, "Hey, what do you think I'm a fit for?" asking their advice.

招聘人员不喜欢被人问“给我一份工作”。他们确实喜欢有人说：“嘿，你认为我适合做什么？”询问他们的建议。

And this is especially true if you pre-

如果您预先

Phyl Terry: And this is especially true if you've pre-built a relationship with a recruiter.

Phyl Terry：如果您已经与招聘人员预先建立了关系，则尤其如此。

So anyone listening to your podcast right now, if you're in a job, I have a really important message for you.

因此，现在正在收听您播客的任何人，如果您正在工作，我有一条非常重要的信息要告诉您。

When that recruiter calls, pick up the phone even if you don't want the job, help them, network with them, introduce them to other people, and build that relationship, because whether you lose a job or whether you decide to start looking when you're in work, you want that relationship.

当招聘人员打来电话时，即使你不想要这份工作，也要拿起电话，帮助他们，与他们建立联系，将他们介绍给其他人，并建立这种关系，因为无论你失业还是决定在工作时开始寻找工作，你都需要这种关系。

Phyl Terry: Now, Lenny, there's a problem many people haven't done that.

菲尔·特里：莱尼，现在有一个问题，很多人都没有这样做。

Okay?

好的？

So part of what we're doing with the Never Search Alone community is we're building a recruiter network.

因此，我们在“Never Search Alone”社区中所做的部分工作就是建立一个招聘人员网络。

We're finding recruiters who are willing to, in a protected way, do a couple of conversations a month, helping people think about their candidate market fit.

我们正在寻找愿意以受保护的方式每月进行几次对话的招聘人员，帮助人们思考他们的候选人是否适合市场。

And if anyone listening to the show is a recruiter, please come join us and volunteer.

如果收听该节目的人是招聘人员，请加入我们并担任志愿者。

We need more recruiters.

我们需要更多的招聘人员。

I know many of you want to give back and you don't know how.

我知道你们很多人都想回馈社会，但不知道如何回报。

You tell me this.

你告诉我这个。

Here's a way to give it.

这是一种给予它的方法。

Lenny Rachitsky: Mm-hmm.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：嗯嗯。

Love that.

喜欢那个。

Okay, and so the intent of this is that you're trying to figure out, one, what does the market want, and how do I be honest about what it wants because what you want may not exist right now, and then, two, help you refine your pitch and how you're approaching and who you're talking to.

好的，所以这样做的目的是，你试图弄清楚，第一，市场想要什么，以及我如何诚实地表达它想要什么，因为你想要的东西现在可能不存在，然后，第二，帮助你完善你的推销方式，以及你如何接近以及你在与谁交谈。

Is there anything else that comes out of doing this exercise?

做这个练习还有什么其他的结果吗？

Because I think people might be hearing this, like, "Ah, so much work.

因为我认为人们可能会听到这样的话，“啊，这么多工作。

I have enough work to do, all these interviews.

我有足够的工作要做，所有这些采访。

Got to reach out to people.

必须接触人们。

I got kids and a family.

我有孩子和家庭。

I have to write this two-pager now and listening tour." What other benefits do you get out of this, doing this exercise?

我现在必须写这个两页纸和聆听之旅。”做这个练习你还能得到什么其他好处？

Phyl Terry: You build those relationships.

Phyl Terry：你建立这些关系。

You turn people on as listening posts, so you light up your network in a way that you...

你让人们成为倾听者，这样你就能以一种......的方式点亮你的网络。

If you just send an email saying, "I want a job," or if you just go, "Hey, do you have a job for me," people don't know what to say.

如果你只是发送一封电子邮件说：“我想要一份工作”，或者如果你只是说：“嘿，你有一份工作适合我吗？”人们不知道该说什么。

But if you say, "Hey, if you're in my shoes, how would you approach this, and what do you think if you were me I should be looking for, and what are you seeing in the market," they love that, and now they're really thinking about it.

但如果你说，“嘿，如果你处于我的处境，你会如何处理这个问题，如果你是我，你认为我应该寻找什么，你在市场上看到了什么，”他们喜欢这样，现在他们真的在考虑这个问题。

Lenny Rachitsky: And if they see a job that might be a fit, they tell you about it.

Lenny Rachitsky：如果他们发现一份可能合适的工作，他们会告诉你。

Phyl Terry: They tell you about it.

Phyl Terry：他们会告诉你这件事。

Yeah, and that gets to candidate...

是的，这涉及候选人......

Because at the end of this, we're going to create a very simple, narrow, focus candidate market fit statement at the end of listening tour.

因为最后，我们将在聆听之旅结束时创建一个非常简单、狭窄、重点突出的候选市场契合度声明。

Phyl Terry: So once you've now done this listening tour, now you need to create a focus candidate market fit, and this is tough.

菲尔·特里：所以，一旦你完成了这次聆听之旅，现在你需要创建一个适合市场的焦点候选人，这很困难。

Look, again, this is why you need a job search council.

再说一遍，这就是你需要求职委员会的原因。

You need them to be there with you during the listening tour.

在聆听之旅期间，您需要他们在您身边。

Not every listening tour conversation will be a home-run.

并不是每一次聆听之旅的谈话都会是全垒打。

Once in a while it'll be a dud.

偶尔它会是一个哑弹。

I talk about this in the book, like, "Warning there are some curves ahead." You could have a conversation...

我在书中谈到了这一点，比如“警告前方有一些曲线。”你们可以聊一聊...

A number of women that I have worked with over the years who've gone and done conversations and they've gotten frankly sexist feedback...

多年来与我共事过的一些女性进行了交谈，她们得到了坦率的性别歧视反馈……

It was not helpful.

这没有帮助。

"You're too poised," or "You're not poised enough." It's just this strange set of stuff.

“你太镇定了”或者“你还不够镇定”。这就是一系列奇怪的东西。

So you need your council to help you parse out and interpret what people are telling you.

因此，您需要理事会来帮助您解析和解释人们告诉您的内容。

Phyl Terry: And at the end of this listening tour, and it never really ends, but once you've done 10 or 15 and you're ready to say, "Okay, I'm going to take a stab at my candidate market fit," now you need your job search council because you're going to want...

菲尔·特里：在这次聆听之旅结束时，它永远不会真正结束，但一旦你完成了 10 或 15 次，你就准备好说，“好吧，我要尝试一下我的候选人市场契合度”，现在你需要你的求职委员会，因为你会想要......

Every bone in your body is going to want that to be expansive, to want it to be broad.

你身体里的每一根骨头都希望它是扩张的，希望它是宽阔的。

Remember, we're product people, at least those of us in Lenny's podcast community; what happens when we're building a product?

请记住，我们是产品人员，至少是 Lenny 播客社区中的产品人员；当我们构建产品时会发生什么？

Same thing, right?

同样的事情，对吧？

We want this product to be for everyone, but we've learned with product market fit, that doesn't work.

我们希望这款产品适合所有人，但我们已经了解到，产品市场契合度是行不通的。

We need a narrow, clear focus.

我们需要一个狭窄、明确的焦点。

Same thing with candidate market fit.

候选人市场契合度也是如此。

So I say to people, and we have this whole grid that we give them, "I'm looking for a director of product role in a healthcare, series B startup in San Francisco," like "Bing, bing, bing," and people say, "Oh, if it's so narrow, I'm going to lose..." And here's the thing, when you're looking for a job, you need a spear and not a net.

所以我对人们说，我们给他们提供了整个网格，“我正在寻找旧金山一家医疗保健 B 轮初创公司的产品总监”，比如“Bing，bing，bing”，人们说，“哦，如果它如此狭窄，我就会失败......”事情是这样的，当你在找工作时，你需要的是矛而不是网。

With a net, everything slips through.

有了一张网，一切就都溜走了。

Phyl Terry: Now, part two to this, people are expansive, but not reductive.

菲尔·特里：现在，第二部分是，人们是扩张性的，但不是还原性的。

What are you talking about, Phyl?

你在说什么，菲尔？

Here's what I mean.

这就是我的意思。

If you give them a specific...

如果你给他们一个具体的...

If I say to you, "Lenny, I'm looking for a director of product role at a healthcare startup that's a series B in San Francisco," well, if you see another FinTech startup that's in a heavily regulated industry looking for a director of product that's a series B, you're going to be like, "You know what?

如果我对你说，“Lenny，我正在旧金山一家 B 轮医疗保健初创公司寻找产品总监”，那么，如果你看到另一家处于严格监管行业的金融科技初创公司正在寻找 B 轮产品总监，你会说，“你知道吗？

Phyl is looking for that, but I bet Phyl could do that." You can be expansive.

菲尔正在寻找这个，但我打赌菲尔可以做到。”你可以心胸开阔。

But if I told you, "Hey, Lenny, I'll take any product job I can," you are never going to think of me.

但如果我告诉你，“嘿，莱尼，我会接受任何我能做的产品工作”，你永远不会想到我。

You're never going to remember me.

你永远不会记得我。

You're not going to be reductive from a broad statement, but you will be expansive from a narrow.

你不会从宽泛的陈述中进行简化，但你会从狭义的陈述中进行扩展。

Phyl Terry: And I'll tell you, Lenny, this is so hard for people, and this is why, again, you need that council and you need that broader community.

菲尔·特里：我会告诉你，莱尼，这对人们来说太难了，这就是为什么你需要那个委员会，你需要更广泛的社区。

And every two weeks we do a LinkedIn Live where we address...

每两周我们都会进行一次 LinkedIn Live，我们会在其中讨论...

We go over these questions again and again because it goes...

我们一次又一次地讨论这些问题，因为它......

If I were in the job search, I'd feel the same way, even with all the darn research I've done.

如果我正在找工作，即使我做了那么多该死的研究，我也会有同样的感觉。

It's really hard.

真的很难。

Lenny Rachitsky: If you've been using this metaphor, approaching this like a product person, and this is very much like a product person thinks about new products is there should be a very narrow audience to start with kind of a wedge or an ICP.

Lenny Rachitsky：如果你一直使用这个比喻，像产品人员一样对待这个问题，这非常像产品人员对新产品的看法，应该有一个非常狭窄的受众，从某种楔子或 ICP 开始。

When someone's building this, what is a sign they've narrowed it enough?

当有人构建这个时，什么迹象表明他们已经缩小了范围？

Are there a certain number of attributes?

属性有一定数量吗？

What tells you that, "Cool, this is small now"?

是什么告诉你“酷，现在已经很小了”？

Phyl Terry: So it's typically three to four attributes, and we give people a whole grid in a set of examples.

Phyl Terry：所以它通常是三到四个属性，我们在一组示例中为人们提供了整个网格。

So we had a woman who was a designer.

所以我们有一位女性设计师。

She was a product designer.

她是一名产品设计师。

And what her product market fit was, she was looking for companies that either did not have a design team or needed to reboot one.

她的产品市场适合情况是，她正在寻找没有设计团队或需要重新启动设计团队的公司。

So she wasn't talking about stage of business, or even industry, but that really plants an image in your mind.

所以她不是在谈论商业阶段，甚至不是工业，但这确实在你的脑海中植入了一个形象。

If you hear about a company that doesn't have design or looking to reboot design, you're going to think of her immediately because after you've done your listening tour and you've created your candidate market fit and your council signs off on it, Lenny, this is important, then you go back out to your listening tour and you tell all those people, "Thank you for your help.

如果你听说一家没有设计或希望重新启动设计的公司，你会立即想到她，因为在你完成你的聆听之旅，你已经创建了你的候选人市场契合度并且你的理事会签署了它，莱尼，这很重要，然后你回到你的聆听之旅并告诉所有那些人，“谢谢你的帮助。

Here's the candidate market fit I've come up with." And you also post it on LinkedIn.

这是我提出的适合市场的候选人。”您还将其发布到 LinkedIn 上。

You tell the whole world, right?

你告诉全世界，对吗？

Phyl Terry: Now, will that candidate market fit change over time?

Phyl Terry：现在，候选人市场的契合度会随着时间的推移而改变吗？

Yeah, we're iterative, right?

是的，我们是迭代的，对吧？

So if you go and go...

所以如果你走走走...

And the market is changing.

市场正在发生变化。

What was true three months ago may not be true now.

三个月前的事实现在可能不再成立。

Two weeks ago the stock market was convinced we're going into a recession, and everything crashed.

两周前，股市确信我们将陷入衰退，一切都崩溃了。

Two weeks later we're like, "Oh, no, we're not going into a recession," and that affects the psychology of hiring managers and companies.

两周后，我们会说，“哦，不，我们不会陷入衰退”，这会影响招聘经理和公司的心理。

Not just psychology, their willingness to open up, recs and everything else.

不仅仅是心理因素，还有他们开放的意愿、建议和其他一切。

So things are changing, so you need to be flexible and adaptive to that, which is also why you need the council and why you need to have a good network around you that you've asked for help from and they're invested in you and can be there for you as you try to keep navigating this.

所以事情正在发生变化，所以你需要灵活适应，这也是你需要理事会的原因，也是为什么你需要在你周围有一个良好的网络，你向他们寻求帮助，他们对你进行投资，并且可以在你尝试继续解决这个问题时为你提供支持。

Lenny Rachitsky: Just to follow us through it a little bit more, when someone is...

Lenny Rachitsky：只是为了让我们再多了解一点，当有人......

Someone's thinking right now, "Okay, what are my attributes," what's on that grid, roughly?

现在有人在想，“好吧，我的属性是什么”，那个网格上大概有什么？

There's stage of company, I imagine there's-

有公司的舞台，我想有-

Phyl Terry: Stage of company, industry, level of role and function, of course, and culture.

Phyl Terry：公司所处的阶段、行业、角色和职能的水平，当然还有文化。

Lenny Rachitsky: Is there a set of options you have of type of culture?

Lenny Rachitsky：您对文化类型有一套选择吗？

Phyl Terry: Basically everyone wants a good culture, right?

Phyl Terry：基本上每个人都想要良好的文化，对吧？

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的，是的，是的，完全正确。

So culture.

所以文化。

Phyl Terry: Sometimes it can be very specific, like, I need a company that has a particular kind of policy for kids, or whatever, remote or hybrid or whatever, that kind of element.

Phyl Terry：有时它可能非常具体，例如，我需要一家对儿童有特殊政策的公司，或者其他什么，远程或混合或其他类型的元素。

But I tell people, make it simple.

但我告诉人们，让它变得简单。

This should not be paragraphs and paragraphs.

这不应该是段落和段落。

It should be a one-sentence statement.

它应该是一句话陈述。

You can do a longer thing that you can then share with people when you're getting into the conversation, but you want something simple that people go, "Oh, Lenny looking for a chief product officer role.

你可以做更长的事情，然后在进入对话时与人们分享，但你想要一些简单的事情，人们会说，“哦，莱尼正在寻找首席产品官的角色。

Oh."

哦。”

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。

It's exactly like you want your product to feel too.

这也正是您希望产品给人的感觉。

Lenny Rachitsky: I need a SOC 2 compliance, so I'm going to think of-

Lenny Rachitsky：我需要 SOC 2 合规性，所以我会考虑-

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, exactly.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的，完全正确。

Okay, so I'm thinking through this list here.

好的，我正在考虑这个列表。

So level and role I imagine people get a pretty good sense of where they want to be.

因此，我想人们对自己想要达到的水平和角色有很好的认识。

Stage, any advice for someone to decide what stage is right for them?

阶段，对于决定哪个阶段适合他们的人有什么建议吗？

Phyl Terry: If I were coaching someone which, as you know, I do, we would talk a lot about this.

菲尔·特里：如果我正在执教某个人，正如你所知，我就是这么做的，我们会谈论很多这个问题。

But when I'm in the book and in the community, I say, "To figure out stage again, I want you to rely on your job search council and your network and your own experience," and it becomes pretty...

但是当我在书中和社区中时，我说，“为了再次找到舞台，我希望你依靠你的求职委员会、你的网络和你自己的经验，”它变得相当......

People usually have a pretty good sense, like, "Who was I talking to recently?

人们通常有很好的感觉，比如，“我最近在和谁说话？

I need a big..." Whereas many people are like, "I don't want that.

我需要一个大的……”而很多人会说，“我不想要那个。

I want a startup." Okay.

我想要一家初创公司。”好的。

Phyl Terry: And what I will tell you is that one thing to keep in mind right now is that there are more jobs in the startup world than there are in the established companies in the tech world for product people.

Phyl Terry：我要告诉你的是，现在要记住的一件事是，对于产品人员来说，初创公司提供的工作岗位比科技行业老牌公司的工作岗位还要多。

That's where new job creation has been happening.

这就是创造新就业机会的地方。

It's slower than it was before, but the big companies, they've just been shedding people.

它比以前慢了，但是大公司，他们只是在裁员。

They've just been throwing them off.

他们刚刚把它们扔掉了。

Whereas the smaller companies, there's more opportunity there.

而规模较小的公司，则有更多的机会。

Now that doesn't mean that...

现在这并不意味着...

If you can't stand working at a startup, I'm not telling you you should go there necessarily.

如果你无法忍受在初创公司工作，我并不是告诉你你一定要去那里。

Phyl Terry: But I will say this, and again, if you need to put food on the table...

菲尔·特里：但我会再说一遍，如果你需要把食物放在桌子上......

We were talking to someone recently; they had moved to a new city and then were laid off the next day.

我们最近正在和某人交谈；他们搬到了一个新城市，第二天就被解雇了。

They moved for the company, and then they were laid off the next day, and they're like, "Okay, I need to get a job." I said, "Okay, yeah, sure.

他们为公司搬家，然后第二天就被解雇了，他们说：“好吧，我需要找份工作。”我说：“好吧，是的，当然。

Just know that if you're going to get any job just to have while you still look for the job you really want, just know that that's hard.

只要知道，如果你想在寻找自己真正想要的工作的同时找到一份工作，那就知道这很难。

That's a hard pen.

那是一支硬笔。

I understand it and I support it, it makes sense, and it's hard." It's harder than you realize, and you absolutely have to keep your job search council, because otherwise you're going to get lost.

我理解，我支持，这是有道理的，但也很难。”这比你想象的要困难，你绝对必须保留你的求职委员会，因为否则你就会迷路。

Phyl Terry: Can I share one story about candidate market fit-

Phyl Terry：我可以分享一个关于候选人市场契合度的故事吗？

Phyl Terry: ...

菲儿·特里：……

that might be helpful to people?

这可能对人们有帮助吗？

I was coaching...

我当时在辅导...

He was an EVP at a traditional media company, but on the digital side, running their streaming business, but it was very much an old economy, old media company.

他是一家传统媒体公司的执行副总裁，但在数字方面，负责运营他们的流媒体业务，但这在很大程度上是一家旧经济、旧媒体公司。

This was not a player in the streaming space.

这不是流媒体领域的玩家。

And they smartly recognized that if they stayed there, they were going to end up in a pretty bad cul-de-sac.

他们聪明地认识到，如果他们留在那里，他们最终会陷入一个非常糟糕的死胡同。

And by the way, that company's had layoffs, and they would've...

顺便说一句，那家公司裁员了，他们会……

So they decided they wanted to go work for a company like Netflix or Apple TV.

因此，他们决定去 Netflix 或 Apple TV 这样的公司工作。

And they're someone who ran hundreds of people, corner office, limo, first-class, you know what I mean, in the airplane?

他们在飞机上管理着数百人、角落办公室、豪华轿车、头等舱，你知道我的意思吗？

What was their candidate market fit?

他们的候选人市场适合什么？

They went out and did this, their candidate market fit, if they were going to join a top streamer was as an individual contributor, Lenny.

他们出去做了这件事，他们的候选人市场适合，如果他们要加入顶级流媒体是作为个人贡献者，莱尼。

Because those guys, they didn't respect much of what they brought from traditional media.

因为那些人​​并不太尊重他们从传统媒体带来的东西。

And if he had done this search alone, he would not have done that.

如果他独自进行这项搜索，他就不会这样做。

But to his credit, he decided to take that, and it transformed his career.

但值得赞扬的是，他决定接受这一点，这改变了他的职业生涯。

He's not someone who had a lot of management experience, but also tied now with one of the top streamers.

他不是一个拥有丰富管理经验的人，但现在也与一位顶级主播并列。

He's just done incredibly well.

他做得非常好。

But that is really hard to do.

但这确实很难做到。

Lenny Rachitsky: So in this example, when you talk about candidate market fit, a big part of it is what the market wants from you.

Lenny Rachitsky：所以在这个例子中，当你谈论候选人市场契合度时，很大一部分是市场对你的需求。

It's not like he's like, "I'm going to go IC." He just realized as he was going through the process, "This is where I'm actually going to succeed."

他并不是说“我要去IC”。当他经历这个过程时，他才意识到，“这才是我真正要成功的地方。”

Phyl Terry: He talked to people, and I helped him network with people in Silicon Valley.

菲尔·特里：他与人交谈，我帮助他与硅谷的人建立联系。

They were just honest with him.

他们只是对他诚实。

And that's what Justin was talking about, this can be hard and humiliating at times to figure out...

这就是贾斯汀所说的，有时要弄清楚这可能很难而且令人羞辱......

We had another person who was a chief product officer in a startup, and she was great.

我们还有另一个人是一家初创公司的首席产品官，她很棒。

She helped me with the book, she was an early reader, she's a member of your community, Lenny.

她帮助我写了这本书，她是一个早期的读者，她是你社区的成员，莱尼。

And she realized that she wasn't getting the right product trend.

她意识到自己没有掌握正确的产品趋势。

She was the only product person, and she didn't really know what she was doing.

她是唯一的产品人员，她并不真正知道自己在做什么。

Well, what was her candidate market fit?

那么，她的候选人市场适合度如何？

It was an IC.

这是一个集成电路。

It was an IC role, an individual contributor role in a larger tech company.

这是一个 IC 角色，是一家大型科技公司中的个人贡献者角色。

And to her credit, she realized that was the right path for her learning, and she did this before the shoot really hit the fan.

值得赞扬的是，她意识到这是她学习的正确道路，并且在拍摄真正引起粉丝注意之前她就这样做了。

I'm in the tech world, fortunately.

幸运的是，我身处科技界。

Just not swear.

只是不发誓。

Phyl Terry: I talk about this in the book.

Phyl Terry：我在书中谈到了这一点。

Sometimes you need a two-step strategy.

有时您需要一个两步走的策略。

Let's say you want to be a VP of product at a top streaming company or whatever it is, but you not a fit for that today.

假设您想成为一家顶级流媒体公司或其他公司的产品副总裁，但今天您不适合这个职位。

So the question is how do you step there?

所以问题是你如何迈向那里？

I tell a story in the book about a guy who'd been a VP of product.

我在书中讲述了一个关于一个担任产品副总裁的人的故事。

He wanted a COO role.

他想要担任首席运营官的角色。

He was not a fit.

他不适合。

He was not a fit, Lenny.

他不适合，莱尼。

And it was very clear.

这非常清楚。

The market was telling him, he did the listening tour, but he came back to me and said, "I don't care.

市场告诉他，他做了聆听之旅，但他回来对我说：“我不在乎。

I want a COO role." So he interviewed with 50 companies.

我想要担任首席运营官一职。”于是他面试了50家公司。

50.

50.

Can you imagine?

你能想象吗？

It took them a year and a half.

他们花了一年半的时间。

The 50th company hired him.

第50连聘用了他。

Phyl Terry: 10 days later, they were a public company, massive fraud, and they went bankrupt.

菲尔·特里：10天后，他们成为一家上市公司，发生大规模欺诈，然后破产了。

I said, "Okay.

我说：“好吧。

The market is clear.

市场已经明朗。

The only COO role you're a fit for is a company that's about to go bankrupt." And he's like, "Okay," and he went back to the VP of product role.

你唯一适合的首席运营官角色就是一家即将破产的公司。”他说，“好吧”，然后他又回到了产品副总裁的职位。

I said, "If you want to become a COO from that role, where you are today, one of the great paths is to do it from that job inside a company." Okay?

我说：“如果你想从现在的职位成为首席运营官，最好的途径之一就是从公司内部的职位开始。”好的？

And that's what he ended up doing.

这就是他最终所做的。

It was a two-step strategy.

这是一个两步走的策略。

He couldn't go straight there.

他不能直接去那里。

Phyl Terry: I'm not talking about people's innate worth, Lenny.

菲尔·特里：我不是在谈论人们与生俱来的价值，莱尼。

I believe every human is worthwhile person, and I deeply believe in belonging and giving people support and spreading love and creating community.

我相信每个人都是有价值的人，我深信归属感、给予人们支持、传播爱和创建社区。

But I also believe in being practical and realistic.

但我也相信务实和现实。

I didn't create this situation.

这种情况不是我造成的。

I'm just trying to report to you what the situation is and how you can manage it so that you don't get stuck.

我只是想向您报告情况以及您如何应对，以免陷入困境。

How many people have you seen, Lenny, who get stuck?

莱尼，你见过多少人被卡住了？

They get stuck in a bad job, they're not learning, and then they can't go from there?

他们陷入了一份糟糕的工作，他们没有学习，然后他们就无法从那里离开？

They get into their 40s and 50s, and it is tough.

他们到了40多岁和50多岁，这很艰难。

A number of people in the job search community who are in their 50s, 60s, whatever, they're dealing with ageism, they're dealing with...

求职社区中的许多 50 多岁、60 多岁的人，无论如何，他们正在应对年龄歧视，他们正在应对......

They're not close enough to the technology frontier.

他们距离技术前沿还不够近。

You got to get closer to the technology frontier, even if that means you're going to go from the EVP to an IC role.

您必须更接近技术前沿，即使这意味着您将从 EVP 晋升为 IC 角色。

That's how creative destruction works.

这就是创造性破坏的运作方式。

The closer you are to the technology frontier, the more new jobs and opportunities there are.

距离技术前沿越近，新的工作和机会就越多。

The further you are from the technology frontier, the worse you're going to be over the long run.

你离技术前沿越远，从长远来看你的处境就越糟糕。

You might be able to get a better-sounding job in the short term, but you're going to find yourself stuck.

你也许能在短期内找到一份听起来更好的工作，但你会发现自己陷入困境。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love your Venn diagram of just warmth and support and belonging, and also just straight real-talk.

Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢你的维恩图，其中充满了温暖、支持和归属感，还有直接的真实对话。

Here's the reality.

这就是现实。

Lenny Rachitsky: This is such powerful advice, and I think people might be feeling like, "Yeah, I get it, but man, I don't want to be a IC again.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是非常有力的建议，我想人们可能会觉得，“是的，我明白了，但是伙计，我不想再次成为 IC。

I've been a director, I've been a VP.

我当过董事，也当过副总裁。

That sounds really not great." Is there anything else you can share to help people get past that, of like, "Okay, maybe I really should be looking for an IC role again?"

听起来确实不太好。”您还有什么可以分享的，可以帮助人们克服这个问题，例如“好吧，也许我真的应该再次寻找 IC 职位？”

Phyl Terry: Again, if you're in a job search council, and also you're in our Slack community, what you're going to find is that you're not alone.

Phyl Terry：再说一次，如果您在求职委员会中，并且在我们的 Slack 社区中，您会发现您并不孤单。

That's a big thing.

这是一件大事。

It's not you.

不是你。

There's not something wrong with you.

你没有什么问题。

This is the market that we're in.

这就是我们所处的市场。

And by the way, the more relationships you build, the better you do your listening tour...

顺便说一句，你建立的关系越多，你的聆听之旅就越好......

One of the tactics, Lenny, I tell people is you've got to send out an update note every month to all of your network that you've talked to.

莱尼，我告诉人们的策略之一是，你必须每月向所有与你交谈过的网络发送更新说明。

And it might be, "I don't have a job yet," or "I don't even have any news, but I just want to let you know I'm still going and I appreciate everything you've done for me and I'm still looking for X." That could be it.

它可能是，“我还没有工作”，或者“我什至没有任何消息，但我只是想让你知道我仍然会去，我感谢你为我所做的一切，而且我仍在寻找 X。”可能就是这样。

And Justin, in his note, I referenced him earlier as chief product officer, his note on LinkedIn today said, "Phyl told me to keep people updated, and I didn't do it enough." Don't make that mistake.

贾斯汀，在他的笔记中，我早些时候提到他是首席产品官，他今天在 LinkedIn 上的笔记说，“菲尔告诉我要让人们随时了解最新情况，但我做得还不够。”不要犯这样的错误。

You got to do that.

你必须这样做。

Phyl Terry: Lenny, I met with a group of about 50 job seekers recently who've been in the Never Search Alone community for more than a year.

Phyl Terry：Lenny，我最近遇到了一群大约 50 名求职者，他们已经在 Never Search Alone 社区呆了一年多了。

Okay?

好的？

They're struggling.

他们正在挣扎。

Again, I don't have a magic wand.

再说一次，我没有魔杖。

But as I talked to them, what was happening?

但当我和他们交谈时，发生了什么？

They stopped network.

他们停止了网络。

They left their job search council.

他们离开了求职委员会。

They weren't updating their candidate market fit to the changing market condition.

他们没有更新他们的候选人市场以适应不断变化的市场状况。

I'm like, "You have to do everything.

我说：“你必须做所有事情。

You can't get passive." One of the concepts, Lenny, I talk about is you've got to be the I in village.

你不能陷入被动。”莱尼，我所说的概念之一是你必须成为村里的“我”。

There's no I in team.

团队里没有我。

Well, there is an I in village, okay?

嗯，村子里有一个我，好吗？

And the I in village is that when I'm saying you've got to ask for help, you got to be a part of job search council community, you have to be independent and accountable and responsible.

村里的“我”是，当我说你必须寻求帮助时，你必须成为求职委员会社区的一部分，你必须独立、负责。

I'm not saying you're not going to become passive independent.

我并不是说你不会变得被动独立。

This is how you become more independent.

这就是你变得更加独立的方式。

This is how you stand up and be even more accountable and responsible.

这就是你站起来并更加负责的方式。

This is how you can do the best search possible in the market conditions that we have.

这样您就可以在我们现有的市场条件下进行最佳搜索。

Lenny Rachitsky: So the advice here is if you're struggling finding a job, this is a solution.

Lenny Rachitsky：所以这里的建议是，如果您正在努力寻找工作，这是一个解决方案。

Join a council, bring people on board with you, update people on your progress.

加入理事会，让人们加入你的行列，向人们通报你的进展。

These are the things that break you out of that funk that you're probably in.

这些事情可以让你摆脱你可能陷入的恐惧。

Phyl Terry: And it will still be hard.

Phyl Terry：这仍然会很困难。

It will still be hard.

仍然会很难。

I wish that weren't true, Lenny.

我希望这不是真的，莱尼。

Now, I will tell you that, look, what's the difference between now and the dot-com depression of 2000, 2001 and 2?

现在，我告诉你，你看，现在和2000年、2001年和2年的网络泡沫时期有什么区别？

The difference is that we were a much smaller industry then.

不同之处在于，我们当时的行业要小得多。

And people had been in web jobs only for a couple years, where now we've got people who are in jobs for 10, 15 or more years in tech who have never seen a downturn, have never seen a market like this.

人们在网络行业工作的时间只有几年，而现在我们已经有人在科技领域工作了 10 年、15 年或更长时间，他们从未经历过经济衰退，也从未见过这样的市场。

We've never seen a tech market like this.

我们从未见过这样的科技市场。

It will improve at some point, but right now it's tough.

在某些时候它会有所改善，但现在很难。

And I can't change that, but I can provide tools, I can provide community, I can provide heart and smarts, so that you can get the best job you can get right now.

我无法改变这一点，但我可以提供工具，我可以提供社区，我可以提供心灵和智慧，这样你就可以获得现在最好的工作。

Lenny Rachitsky: Speaking of advice, is there anything else along the lines of candidate market fit before we move on to more tactics?

Lenny Rachitsky：说到建议，在我们采取更多策略之前，还有其他与候选人市场契合度相关的内容吗？

Phyl Terry: Just that, again, that you're going to resist the narrowness of it, every bone in your body.

菲尔·特里：再说一次，你要抵抗它的狭窄，你身体的每一块骨头。

Just know that that's what everyone is feeling.

只要知道这就是每个人的感受。

But go watch...

但去看...

I have this great video online of...

我在网上有一段很棒的视频...

He was a VP of product.

他是产品副总裁。

He was initially masked, but VP of product at Nike.

他最初戴着面具，是耐克的产品副总裁。

I met him through Marty and Chris at Silicon Valley Product Group.

我是通过硅谷产品集团的马蒂和克里斯认识了他。

He joined one of our product councils, and then he decided to leave.

他加入了我们的一个产品委员会，然后决定离开。

And he was like, "Phyl, I love you, but this candidate market fit stuff, no. You're wrong.

他说，“菲尔，我爱你，但是这个候选人市场适合的东西，不。你错了。

It needs to be ." And so he went out and he actually spoke to a bunch of VCs and like, " We don't have any idea what to do with you.

必须如此。”所以他出去了，他实际上和一群风险投资家谈过，“我们不知道该怎么处理你。

You have to tell us something really specific." He was like, "Oh, man." So he went, he's like, "Phyl..." So he redid it, bam, bam, bam.

你必须告诉我们一些非常具体的事情。”他就像是，“哦，伙计。”所以他就说，“Phyl...”所以他重做了，砰，砰，砰。

Phyl Terry: I tell another story in the book about Dee.

菲尔·特里：我在书中讲述了另一个关于迪伊的故事。

She was a chief data officer of a large company in tech, wanted to become a CTO.

她是一家大型科技公司的首席数据官，想成为一名首席技术官。

She had a technology and engineering background, as well as data.

她拥有技术和工程背景以及数据背景。

She spent a year spinning her wheels alone.

她独自一人度过了一年的时间。

I said, "Join a job search council." She figured out her candidate market fit.

我说：“加入求职委员会。”她找到了适合自己的候选人市场。

It turns out she was a great fit for a mid-size regional bank CTO.

事实证明，她非常适合担任中型区域银行首席技术官。

And within three weeks she had three offers.

三周之内，她收到了三份工作邀请。

A year, nothing.

一年了，什么都没有。

Within three weeks, three offers.

三周之内，三份offer。

Phyl Terry: So I can't guarantee that you're going to get three offers within three weeks, right?

Phyl Terry：所以我不能保证你会在三周内收到三个报价，对吧？

I'm not saying that.

我不是这么说的。

Some of you, it might take you six months or a year.

你们中的一些人可能需要六个月或一年的时间。

And the more senior you are, Lenny, the longer it is.

莱尼，你的级别越高，时间就越长。

If you're a CEO, it's going to take you a long time, unless you happen to be the CEO of Chipotle, who just became the CEO of Starbucks.

如果你是一名首席执行官，这将花费你很长时间，除非你恰好是 Chipotle 的首席执行官，而他刚刚成为星巴克的首席执行官。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。

Yeah, I know you're creating a page that we're going to link people to, which is, I think...

是的，我知道您正在创建一个页面，我们将把人们链接到该页面，我认为......

Is it phyl.org/lenny?

是 phyl.org/lenny 吗？

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, cool.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的，酷。

And is it going to have this template to help you work out your market fit?

是否会有这个模板来帮助您确定适合您的市场？

Phyl Terry: There'll be a link to where you can download not only that template, but all the templates.

Phyl Terry：将会有一个链接，您不仅可以下载该模板，还可以下载所有模板。

You don't even have to join a job search council to get all this stuff.

您甚至不必加入求职委员会即可获得所有这些东西。

I hope you do.

我希望你能做到。

Again, it's free.

再说一次，它是免费的。

I will say, early on people were like, "What's the trick here?

我会说，早期人们会说，“这里有什么窍门？

This is free, and you're going to charge me." No. No, this is free.

这是免费的，你要向我收费。”不，不，这是免费的。

Why am I making it free?

为什么我要免费提供？

Because, one, I can, which is cool; second, this is in honor of my mom; and third, I want to create a private safety net for the ravages of creative destruction.

因为，一，我可以，这很酷；第二，这是为了纪念我的妈妈；第三，我想为创造性破坏的破坏建立一个私人安全网。

It's great.

这很棒。

A lot of positive consequences, but there's negative ones.

有很多积极的后果，但也有消极的后果。

And I just don't love the idea of charging people for this.

我只是不喜欢为此向人们收费的想法。

I charge people for other things, but not for this.

我会为其他事情向人们收费，但不会为此收取费用。

Lenny Rachitsky: And we'll link people to the things you charge for so they can support you and benefit you in other ways, or benefit themselves in other ways.

Lenny Rachitsky：我们会将人们与您收取的费用联系起来，这样他们就可以支持您并以其他方式使您受益，或者以其他方式使自己受益。

Phyl Terry: Benefit them and me.

Phyl Terry：对他们和我都有好处。

That'd be awesome.

那太棒了。

Lenny Rachitsky: Let's talk about some other tactics.

Lenny Rachitsky：我们来谈谈其他一些策略。

You mentioned this idea of playing to win, and I think within that, there's this kind of OKR in mission tactic.

你提到了“为胜利而战”的想法，我认为其中有一种任务策略中的 OKR。

Let's talk about that.

我们来谈谈这个吧。

Phyl Terry: 50%, Lenny, of the people who read my book, join a job search council, and follow everything I've described, the people don't do what I'm about to tell you, it is the biggest mistake and miss, and I'm really sorry about this.

菲尔·特里：莱尼，读过我的书、加入求职委员会并遵循我所描述的一切的人中，有 50% 的人没有做我要告诉你的事情，这是最大的错误和错过，对此我真的很抱歉。

I'm on a campaign, right?

我正在竞选，对吗？

So here's the thing.

所以事情是这样的。

When you start to interview and negotiate, you've got to be in charge.

当你开始面试和谈判时，你必须负责。

This is collaborative coaching.

这就是协作辅导。

I want you to play to win, not to lose.

我希望你打球是为了赢，而不是为了输。

Phyl Terry: Now, when people hear me say that, they translate it in their brains into, "Oh, Phyl is saying that I've got to be a ruthless negotiator." If anyone who knows me know that ruthless is just not how I am, at least in this sense.

菲尔·特里：现在，当人们听到我这么说时，他们会在大脑中将其翻译为：“哦，菲尔是说我必须成为一名无情的谈判者。”如果任何认识我的人都知道，我不是一个无情的人，至少在这个意义上是这样。

No, no, I'm like, "What I want you to do," and it's a great tactic that we stumbled upon, and it's one of the best tactics in the book, and I really hope we can get the other half of the people who are in the community to do this, and your listeners who aren't involved who decide to join also do this, when you start interviewing, I want you to create your own version of the job description.

不，不，我想，“我想让你做什么”，这是我们偶然发现的一个很好的策略，也是书中最好的策略之一，我真的希望我们能让社区中的另一半人这样做，以及那些没有参与但决定加入的听众也这样做，当你开始面试时，我希望你创建你自己版本的职位描述。

I want you to do it privately, Lenny, and I want you to create what I call a job mission with OKRs.

我希望你私下做这件事，莱尼，我希望你用 OKR 创建我所说的工作使命。

Phyl Terry: Now, most job descriptions, they suck, Lenny.

菲尔·特里：现在，大多数职位描述都很糟糕，莱尼。

The company doesn't know what the eff they're doing.

公司不知道他们在做什么。

They don't know exactly what they're looking for.

他们并不确切知道自己在寻找什么。

But I'm not telling you to say that to them, just to be clear.

但我并不是要你对他们这么说，只是为了清楚起见。

I'm telling you, "I want you to create your own job mission with OKRs." This is key.

我告诉你，“我希望你通过 OKR 制定自己的工作使命。”这是关键。

It needs to be with OKRs.

它需要与 OKR 结合在一起。

Now, your audience knows what an OKR is, objectives and key results, and I assume I don't need to explain that.

现在，您的听众知道 OKR 是什么、目标和关键结果，我想我不需要解释这一点。

It needs to be something where you are saying, "Here's what I think I'm going to be accountable for.

你必须这样说：“这就是我认为我要负责的事情。

Here's what I'm going to actually...

这就是我实际上要做的......

the outcomes I'm going to deliver," right?

我要实现的结果”，对吧？

Phyl Terry: At the company you join.

Phyl Terry：在你加入的公司。

Now, you'll keep it private at first because drafting it...

现在，您首先将其保密，因为起草它......

This thing has multiple benefits.

这东西有多重好处。

The first is drafting it will help you understand and develop great interview questions to ask them to clarify, what is this job?

首先是起草它将帮助您理解和提出很好的面试问题，让他们澄清，这份工作是什么？

And they'll be impressed by that.

他们会对此印象深刻。

Okay?

好的？

The second thing is, once you've had a couple of interviews, and it's a draft...

第二件事是，一旦你接受了几次采访，这就是草稿......

Now, it's not a full, final thing.

现在，这还不是一个完整的、最终的事情。

This is so important.

这非常重要。

I want you to pull the hiring manager aside and say, "Hey, Lenny, you're the hiring manager.

我希望你把招聘经理拉到一边说：“嘿，莱尼，你是招聘经理。

I've thought about what the role is.

我想过这个角色是什么。

I want to make sure I'm understanding it correctly.

我想确保我理解正确。

Can I share something with you?" I don't want you to email it.

我可以和你分享一些东西吗？”我不想让你通过电子邮件发送它。

I want you to do phone call, Zoom, or coffee or whatever.

我希望你能打电话、Zoom、或者喝杯咖啡什么的。

Phyl Terry: Lenny, can you imagine how hiring managers feel when they get this job mission with OKRs?

Phyl Terry：Lenny，你能想象招聘经理收到 OKR 的工作任务时的感受吗？

I was talking to a senior guy at Amazon who's hired more than 2000 product leaders and others.

我正在和亚马逊的一位资深人士交谈，他雇佣了 2000 多名产品领导者和其他人。

He said, "Phyl, no one in..." He's part of our product account.

他说：“Phyl，没有人……”他是我们产品帐户的一员。

He said, "No one in my life has ever done this.

他说：“我一生中从来没有人做过这样的事。

If someone did this, it would blow my mind.

如果有人这样做，我会大吃一惊。

I would hire them on the spot." And that's the message I want these folks to understand.

我会当场雇用他们。”这就是我希望这些人理解的信息。

Phyl Terry: We talk about silver medals, Lenny.

菲尔·特里：我们谈论银牌，莱尼。

In the job search, the silver medal sucks.

在求职中，银牌很糟糕。

At the Olympics, hey, it's pretty good.

在奥运会上，嘿，这相当不错。

You get to be on the podium.

你必须登上领奖台。

But guess what?

但你猜怎么着？

Silver medal is...

银牌是...

It's almost worse than...

这几乎比...还要糟糕

Because you were almost there.

因为你就快到了。

And we have a number of videos and other things where we talk about the difference, in many cases, between getting the silver and gold has been doing the job mission with OKRs.

我们有很多视频和其他东西，我们讨论了在许多情况下，获得银牌和金牌之间的区别是通过 OKR 完成工作任务。

Companies say, "This is what distinguished you.

公司说：“这就是你的杰出之处。

This is what..." We were like, "Who is this person?" They're already thinking about what they're accountable and the outcomes, and naturally they're thinking about it better than I am, which is fantastic, right?

这就是……”我们想，“这个人是谁？”他们已经在思考他们的责任和结果，自然他们比我想得更好，这太棒了，对吧？

So it raises the odds, but it also does something if you present it...

所以它增加了可能性，但如果你展示它，它也会产生一些作用......

Phyl Terry: Again, Lenny, you're the hiring manager.

菲尔·特里：再说一次，莱尼，你是招聘经理。

I show you my job mission OKRs, and you're like, "Oh, this is fantastic," but you also say, "Oh, this thing you have here, this OKR, this isn't part of the role.

我向你展示我的工作使命 OKR，你会说，“哦，这太棒了”，但你也会说，“哦，你这里的这个东西，这个 OKR，这不是角色的一部分。

Well, that's helpful to understand, but this thing that you don't have listed is." "Oh, really?" Lenny, how many times...

嗯，这有助于理解，但是你没有列出的这个东西是。” “哦真的吗？”莱尼，多少次了……

I'm going to ask people in the audience to raise their hands.

我要请观众举手。

How many times have you taken the job A that turned out to be job B?

你有多少次接受了工作A，结果却变成了工作B？

Everybody just raised their hands, Lenny.

每个人都举起了手，莱尼。

So this helps to address that, right?

所以这有助于解决这个问题，对吗？

Phyl Terry: And then if you get the offer, and again, this raises the odds of getting the offer, it then sets you up to negotiate what I call the four legs of the negotiations tool.

菲尔·特里：然后，如果你得到了报价，这又增加了得到报价的几率，然后你就可以进行我所说的谈判工具的四个方面的谈判。

This is not hard negotiation.

这并不是一场艰难的谈判。

This is something the company loves.

这是公司喜欢的事情。

I actually say, you get an offer and it's like whatever, $250,000 base with a 30% bonus.

我实际上是说，你收到了一份offer，基本工资是250,000美元，还有30%的奖金。

This may be a director or whatever, or senior manager.

这可能是董事或其他人员，也可能是高级经理。

Maybe it's an 800 base if you're more senior, whatever it might be.

如果你资历更高的话，可能是 800 基础，不管它是什么。

I want you to go and talk to the hiring manager, if possible.

如果可能的话，我希望你去和招聘经理谈谈。

Hopefully not the recruiter.

希望不是招聘人员。

We'll talk about that.

我们会讨论这个。

And I want you to say, "This is great.

我想让你说：“这太棒了。

I want to talk about money, but before we do, I want to think about some of the things that will set me up to see succeed in this role.

我想谈谈金钱，但在我们开始之前，我想考虑一些能让我在这个职位上取得成功的事情。

I think there's like $10 million of tech debt here.

我认为这里有大约 1000 万美元的科技债务。

Does that sound right to you?

这对你来说合适吗？

And are we on board that that'll be priority one to eliminate the first day I start the job?"

我们是否同意在我开始工作的第一天就将其作为优先事项？”

Phyl Terry: We had two CPOs, both interviewing at private equity firms, private equity-owned companies, about the same size, SaaS companies.

Phyl Terry：我们有两名 CPO，他们都在私募股权公司、私募股权拥有的公司（规模差不多）、SaaS 公司进行面试。

One had tech debt of 20 million, one had tech debt of 10.

其中一人的技术债务为 2000 万美元，另一人的技术债务为 10 美元。

I told them both, "You got to talk about that in the..." So one talked about it in the negotiation, and the company was like, "Oh, that's great." They wrote a check on day one.

我告诉他们两人，“你们必须在……中讨论这个问题”，所以有人在谈判中谈到了这个问题，公司的反应是，“哦，那太好了。”他们在第一天就写了一张支票。

Six months later, the tech debt was relieved.

六个月后，科技债务得到缓解。

They updated the systems.

他们更新了系统。

They were able to get into innovation.

他们能够进行创新。

A year later, they got promoted to a GM role in addition to their CPO role, and then a year after that, they were being interviewed for the CEO role.

一年后，他们除了担任首席产品官之外，还晋升为总经理，一年后，他们接受了首席执行官职位的面试。

The other person, where there was 10 million of tech debt, was kind shy about asking, sort of mentioned it, they were like, "Oh, we'll talk about it when you get here," but they didn't really commit, and they never addressed it.

另一个人，有 1000 万的技术债务，有点害羞地问，有点提到它，他们就像，“哦，当你到达这里时我们会谈论它，”但他们并没有真正承诺，他们从未解决过这个问题。

One month, six months, 12 months, 18 months later, he's looking for a job.

一个月、六个月、十二个月、十八个月后，他开始找工作。

This is the opportunity cost of not being set up for success.

这就是没有为成功做好准备的机会成本。

Phyl Terry: Now, again, don't hear this as antagonistic.

Phyl Terry：现在，再说一次，不要认为这是对立的。

We're not antagonistic here.

我们这里并不是敌对的。

We're trying to say, "What's going to help me succeed?" So one CPO recently was negotiating...

我们想说：“什么能帮助我成功？”一位 CPO 最近正在谈判……

I'm not just talking about budget for tech debt or whatever.

我不只是在谈论技术债务或其他什么的预算。

If you're a senior person, do you think that team needs more training?

如果你是资深人士，你认为团队需要更多培训吗？

Do you need to send them over to Marty's workshops, over to my product councils, right?

您需要将它们发送到马蒂的工作室，发送到我的产品委员会，对吧？

Get them into Lenny's community.

让他们进入莱尼的社区。

The company was like, "You're negotiating the training budget of the team that you don't even run yet-"

公司的反应是，“你正在协商你还没有运营的团队的培训预算——”

Phyl Terry: You're negotiating the training budget of the team that you don't even run yet while we're talking about your salary?

Phyl Terry：当我们谈论你的薪水时，你正在谈判你还没有管理的团队的培训预算？

Who are you?

你是谁？

We love you, we're going to pay you even more.

我们爱你，我们会付出更多。

Lenny, companies love this.

莱尼，公司喜欢这个。

And even if you're a junior person, you're not going to negotiate budget, but you can talk about mentorship, professional development, will you be able to attend conferences or training?

即使你是初级人员，你也不会协商预算，但你可以谈论指导、专业发展，你能参加会议或培训吗？

Again, and this is, we're not hard negotiating this, we're saying, "Here's what I think I'm going to need to accomplish the OKRs that we've already agreed upon."

再说一遍，我们并没有对此进行艰难的谈判，我们是说，“这就是我认为我需要完成我们已经商定的 OKR 的内容。”

Lenny Rachitsky: This is really cool advice, I want to make sure people super understand it.

Lenny Rachitsky：这真的是很酷的建议，我想确保人们超级理解它。

So an example of tech debt.

这是科技债务的一个例子。

This person asked, "I need $10 million budget in order to address this tech debt."

此人问道：“我需要 1000 万美元的预算来解决这项技术债务。”

Lenny Rachitsky: I see.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我明白了。

So it's not like, "I believe we will save $10 million if we spend on time." It's like, "Here's how much this team will need and I will need to be successful."

所以这并不是说“我相信如果我们按时花钱，我们会节省 1000 万美元”。就像是，“这就是这支球队需要多少，而我需要取得成功。”

Phyl Terry: I'm going to need a check for $10 million on day one.

Phyl Terry：第一天我就需要一张 1000 万美元的支票。

Lenny Rachitsky: I guess you're right, someone would be shy asking for that.

Lenny Rachitsky：我想你是对的，有人会害羞地提出这样的要求。

Or that was $20 million actually, that was the one that asked for it.

或者说实际上是 2000 万美元，这就是要求的。

Phyl Terry: That was the 20 million, that was right.

Phyl Terry：那就是 2000 万，没错。

And again, it was not...

再说一次，这不是...

Yes, people feel really shy about this, but the companies love that they understood what it was going to take.

是的，人们对此感到非常害羞，但公司喜欢他们了解这将需要什么。

I will tell you what, if the company doesn't like this, it's a huge red flag.

我会告诉你，如果公司不喜欢这样，那就是一个巨大的危险信号。

Huge red flag, it means they're not serious.

巨大的危险信号，这意味着他们不认真。

But if you're talking to them, "Hey, I think we're going to need train the team.

但如果你和他们交谈，“嘿，我认为我们需要训练团队。

I'm going to need to hire three more ICs," or the design function is weak, or whatever it might be.

我需要再雇用三个 IC，”或者设计功能很弱，或者其他什么原因。

And then you're like, "Do you agree?

然后你会说：“你同意吗？

Do you see it this way?"

你是这样看的吗？”

Phyl Terry: And they're like, "Yeah, that's right.

菲尔·特里：他们就像是，“是的，没错。

Good.

很好。

Wow." You're already like bang, bang, bang.

哇。”你已经像砰、砰、砰一样。

We haven't even finished negotiating your salary.

我们甚至还没有谈完你的工资。

And this is so counterintuitive, Lenny.

这太违反直觉了，莱尼。

I'm the queen of counterintuitive stuff.

我是反直觉事物的女王。

Kelly Marcus said it's counterintuitive, right?

凯利·马库斯说这违反直觉，对吗？

But this is as well.

但这也是如此。

People think they're going to lose the opportunity when it actually wins them.

人们认为他们会失去机会，但实际上机会却为他们赢得了机会。

Now, of course, if they marched in and said, "Damn it, you have to do X and Y," right?

现在，当然，如果他们走进来并说：“该死，你必须做 X 和 Y，”对吗？

That's not what I'm talking about.

我说的不是这个。

Phyl Terry: "Hey, here's how I see it.

菲尔·特里：“嘿，这就是我的看法。

This is the OKRs.

这就是 OKR。

I think we're going to need this.

我想我们会需要这个。

Does that make sense to you?" And you're having a collaborative conversation about how you need to be set up for success.

这对你来说有意义吗？”你们正在就如何做好准备才能取得成功进行合作对话。

Phyl Terry: And by the way, if they say, "No, I hear you.

菲尔·特里：顺便说一句，如果他们说：“不，我听到了。

I believe you, but no," then you make a judgment decision.

我相信你，但不，”然后你做出判断决定。

I'm not always saying you turn that away.

我并不总是说你要拒绝它。

Well, especially if you need a job, but you're now going in eyes wide open.

嗯，特别是如果你需要一份工作，但你现在要睁大眼睛了。

You are not going to be able to believe that tech debt initially.

一开始你不会相信科技债务。

You're going to have to work within that constraint.

你必须在这个限制内工作。

Lenny Rachitsky: So I love that we're getting into negotiation advice by the way, because I was hoping we'd get there.

Lenny Rachitsky：所以我喜欢我们顺便提供谈判建议，因为我希望我们能够实现这一目标。

So the advice here is identify something that you'll need to be successful, and your finding is that when you ask for, and it seems like a financial investment as a part of you joining, ends up leading to a better comp for you.

因此，这里的建议是确定你需要成功的东西，你的发现是，当你提出要求时，这似乎是你加入的一部分的财务投资，最终会给你带来更好的薪酬。

Phyl Terry: Yes, and I will say that there's less negotiating room today than there was two years ago because of the market that we're in.

菲尔·特里：是的，我会说，由于我们所处的市场，今天的谈判空间比两年前要小。

And the data all bears that out, and we see that.

数据都证明了这一点，我们也看到了这一点。

But here's the other piece of data.

但这是另一条数据。

So I want you to ask for things that tie back to the OKRs that you've already agreed on with the hiring manager.

因此，我希望您提出与您已与招聘经理达成一致的 OKR 相关的事项。

This is how this thing connects together, right?

这就是这个东西连接在一起的方式，对吗？

It's like Legos, and then we come to the money and you've had this lovely conversation.

就像乐高积木一样，然后我们谈到了钱，你们就进行了这次愉快的谈话。

You've shown them how much you're invested in succeeding.

你已经向他们展示了你为成功投入了多少。

See, Lenny, the problem that every hiring manager has is distinguishing be someone between someone who is a good talker, and someone who can actually make things happen.

莱尼，你看，每个招聘经理都面临的问题是区分善于言谈的人和真正能够使事情发生的人。

You know this, right?

你知道这一点，对吧？

And this is true every from individual contributor to CEO.

从个人贡献者到首席执行官都是如此。

Phyl Terry: By doing the job mission of the OKRs, and by showing them that draft, you are showing them.

Phyl Terry：通过完成 OKR 的工作任务，并向他们展示草案，你就是在向他们展示。

Not telling them, showing them that you take initiative, that you're accountable, that you can make things happen.

不告诉他们，而是向他们表明你采取主动，你有责任感，你可以让事情发生。

And then in the salary negotiation, by talking to them about what you need to succeed, you're showing them that you really want to succeed.

然后在薪资谈判中，通过与他们谈论你需要什么才能成功，你向他们表明你真的想成功。

And guess who that benefits?

猜猜这对谁有利？

That benefits the company, obviously.

显然，这对公司有利。

I want you to do that first and then, okay, so then let's talk money.

我希望你先这样做，然后，好吧，那么我们来谈谈钱吧。

Now, 87% of the time, Lenny, when you ask for more money, you get it.

现在，莱尼，87% 的情况下，当你要求更多的钱时，你就会得到。

Now, that's a longitudinal statistic, meaning over many years.

现在，这是一个纵向统计数据，意味着很多年。

It's going to be lower in a moment like this, but you can still ask, and people are afraid to ask.

在这样的时刻它会更低，但你仍然可以问，但人们不敢问。

Again, don't ask in some shark way like some of my friends in business might do.

再说一遍，不要像我的一些商界朋友那样以某种狡猾的方式提问。

Some M&A negotiators, whatever.

一些并购谈判者，无论如何。

No, ask, are you open?

不，请问，你们营业吗？

Phyl Terry: Unless it's a deal breaker.

Phyl Terry：除非这会破坏交易。

If it's a deal breaker, just be open about that.

如果这会破坏交易，请对此保持开放态度。

But if it's not, let's say they offered you whatever it is.

但如果不是，就说他们为你提供了任何东西。

400 base with up to 100% whatever in some RSUs or options, blah, blah, and you really wanted 450.

400 基础，在某些 RSU 或选项中高达 100%，等等，等等，你真的想要 450。

Lenny, you can say, "Hey, are you open to 450?

Lenny，你可以说，“嘿，你愿意接受 450 吗？

That was really what I was hoping for.

这确实是我所希望的。

What I think I'm worth, are you open to that?

我认为我的价值是多少，你对此持开放态度吗？

Is that something we can talk about?"

这是我们可以谈论的事情吗？”

Phyl Terry: And most of the time they say yes.

Phyl Terry：大多数时候他们都会说是的。

They may not get you to 450.

他们可能无法让你达到 450。

They may be like, "You know what?

他们可能会说，“你知道吗？

Yes, thank you.

是的，谢谢。

Let me get back to you." Or, "No, we could go to 420.

让我回到你身边。”或者，“不，我们可以拨打 420。

Does that work?

那有用吗？

Great."

太棒了。”

Phyl Terry: I do too.

菲尔·特里：我也是。

And I talk about this in the book and Jason Fried, who you know.

我在书中和你认识的贾森·弗里德（Jason Fried）谈论了这一点。

Jason Fried's got this great thing where they have all very clear bans, 37signals, well, at Basecamp.

Jason Fried 做了一件伟大的事情，他们有非常明确的禁令，37signals，嗯，在 Basecamp。

He's like, "Because no one's trained in negotiation, how can we expect people to negotiate?" And there's another thing Marty says about my book.

他说，“因为没有人受过谈判训练，我们怎么能指望人们进行谈判呢？”关于我的书，马蒂还说了另一件事。

He says what he loves is that companies have all of these resources.

他说他喜欢的是公司拥有所有这些资源。

They've got lawyers and HR people, and you're there alone.

他们有律师和人力资源人员，而你一个人在那里。

Phyl Terry: That's why you need your job search council.

菲尔·特里：这就是为什么你需要求职委员会。

This is when you really need to ask for help because every bone in your body is going to say, "I'm not going to negotiate.

这是你真正需要寻求帮助的时候，因为你身体的每一块骨头都会说：“我不会谈判。

That's going to make it worse," and it almost never does.

这会让事情变得更糟”，但它几乎从来不会发生。

And again, you could be a jerk about it, that won't be good, but that's not what I'm talking about.

再说一遍，你可能对此很混蛋，那不会很好，但这不是我要说的。

I'm talking about collaborative conversation.

我说的是协作对话。

I'm talking about what you need to succeed, showing them that you're thinking about resources, support, budget that will help you deliver on the things that you signed up for.

我正在谈论你需要什么才能成功，向他们展示你正在考虑资源、支持和预算，以帮助你实现你所签署的目标。

And then asking, are you open if they didn't quite hit your range.

然后问，如果他们没有完全达到你的范围，你是否开放。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。

The way you phrase it, make it very low risk to ask.

你的措辞方式使得询问的风险非常低。

Lenny Rachitsky: Do you have any specific advice on doing this over email, over phone call, or in person?

Lenny Rachitsky：对于通过电子邮件、电话或亲自进行此操作，您有什么具体建议吗？

Is there something you're like, "Definitely do it in this way."

有没有什么事情你会说“一定要这样做”。

Phyl Terry: Strongly, strongly want you to do it either in person or over the phone live with the hiring manager.

Phyl Terry：强烈、强烈希望你亲自或通过电话与招聘经理一起进行。

Now, some companies won't let you do that.

现在，有些公司不会让你这样做。

You have to talk to the HR person or whatever.

您必须与人力资源人员或其他人员交谈。

But as much as you can work with the hiring manager, even if it's to say, "Hey, I just want to run by you some of the things I think I need to succeed in the role before we talk money with the hiring manager," or whatever.

但是，尽管你可以与招聘经理合作，即使你会说，“嘿，在我们与招聘经理谈钱之前，我只想由你来处理一些我认为我需要在这个职位上取得成功的事情”，或者其他什么。

With the recruiter I mean, and they'll go to bat for you behind the scenes if you do that.

我指的是招聘人员，如果你这样做，他们会在幕后为你辩护。

Not guaranteed, but more like.

不能保证，但更像是。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, that's totally true because oftentimes you don't really have a specific budget as a hiring manager.

Lenny Rachitsky：是的，这是完全正确的，因为作为招聘经理，通常你并没有具体的预算。

Lenny Rachitsky: So to you it's like, "Sure, 450, let's make it happen."

Lenny Rachitsky：所以对你来说就像是，“当然，450，让我们实现它。”

Phyl Terry: That's right.

菲尔·特里：没错。

Now some companies like know this and they're like, "You have to talk to the person we designate the internal recruiter," but you can also get back to that hiring manager, and even informally.

现在，一些公司喜欢知道这一点，他们会说，“你必须与我们指定的内部招聘人员交谈”，但你也可以联系招聘经理，甚至是非正式的联系。

Again, if you've built a good relationship and everything is about building good relationships, Lenny.

再说一遍，如果你们已经建立了良好的关系，并且一切都是为了建立良好的关系，莱尼。

I want you to be a good interviewer.

我希望你成为一名优秀的面试官。

I want you to ask good questions.

我希望你能提出好问题。

I want you to listen.

我想让你听。

I want you to present that job mission OKRs.

我希望您介绍该工作使命 OKR。

It shows how innovative and how much you take initiative and how much you're thinking about this and how much you want this, right?

它显示了您的创新程度、主动性、思考程度以及想要的程度，对吧？

Every step of the way.

每一步都走好。

Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by Dovetail, the customer insights hub for product teams.

Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 Dovetail（产品团队的客户洞察中心）为您带来。

Understanding customers is a critical part of good product development, but it's so much harder than it should be.

了解客户是良好产品开发的关键部分，但这比应有的要困难得多。

Whether it's finding insights and large volumes of customer calls, crawling through feedback, or finding out what you already know, getting the full picture of your customers is slow and full of friction.

无论是寻找见解和大量客户来电、爬取反馈，还是找出您已经知道的信息，全面了解客户都是缓慢且充满摩擦的。

This is where Dovetail comes in.

这就是燕尾榫发挥作用的地方。

Dovetail is the AI first customer insights hub that automates end-to-end qualitative data analysis and insight discovery.

Dovetail 是人工智能第一的客户洞察中心，可自动执行端到端定性数据分析和洞察发现。

Their latest AI features automatically break down your calls into key moments, themes, and digestible summaries so that you can get to the heart of customer problems fast.

他们最新的人工智能功能会自动将您的通话分解为关键时刻、主题和易于理解的摘要，以便您可以快速找到客户问题的核心。

Lenny Rachitsky: When you need quick clarity on a decision, you can use Dovetail's AI powered semantic search to retrieve supporting data from across your organization, summarize it, and create video highlight reels that you can share with your team.

Lenny Rachitsky：当您需要快速明确决策时，您可以使用 Dovetail 的 AI 支持的语义搜索来检索整个组织的支持数据，对其进行总结，并创建可以与团队共享的视频集锦。

Get access to all of Dovetail's latest AI features on their professional plan.

在其专业计划中访问 Dovetail 的所有最新 AI 功能。

The best news is that listeners of this podcast can get an exclusive 30 day Dovetail Pro trial today.

最好的消息是，该播客的听众今天可以获得为期 30 天的 Dovetail Pro 独家试用。

Just go to dovetail.com/lenny, that's dovetail.com/lenny.

只需访问 dovetail.com/lenny，即 dovetail.com/lenny。

Lenny Rachitsky: While we're on this topic of negotiation and comp, is there anything else there that you might want to share that might be helpful to people?

Lenny Rachitsky：当我们讨论谈判和补偿这个话题时，您还有什么想分享的对人们有帮助的吗？

Phyl Terry: In the book, before you do the listening tour, I ask people to do what I call the gratitude house exercise, which is to think about who are all the people in your life who have helped you get to where you are today?

菲儿·特里：在书中，在你进行聆听之旅之前，我要求人们做我所说的感恩之家练习，即想想你生命中所有帮助你到达今天的人是谁？

I mean, you could talk about your third grade teacher, you know what I mean?

我的意思是，你可以谈谈你三年级的老师，你知道我的意思吗？

I'm just talking on, I just want you to do that, and I want you to do that because everyone has this idea that they're alone.

我只是说说而已，我只是希望你这么做，我希望你这么做，因为每个人都有这样的想法：他们是孤独的。

We have all received enormous help to do what we're doing, whoever we are.

无论我们是谁，我们在做我们正在做的事情时都得到了巨大的帮助。

Even the was born to a mother, and they did not make it themselves for their first several years of their lives.

即使是母亲所生，他们在生命的最初几年也不是自己生活的。

We all are born of mothers.

我们都是母亲所生的。

We all are born as families and communities.

我们生来就是家庭和社区。

Some better or worse.

有的更好，有的更差。

I had a pretty tough childhood, but there was love.

我的童年很艰难，但有爱。

Phyl Terry: I want you to do that gratitude house exercise, and then it can sometimes surface people that you'll go talk to in the listening tour.

菲尔·特里：我希望你做感恩之家练习，然后它有时可以让你在聆听之旅中与之交谈的人浮现出来。

Might not talk to your third grade teacher, but you'll go talk to some.

可能不会和你的三年级老师交谈，但你会去和一些老师交谈。

Now when you're going into interview, I ask people to take a moment and re-reflect the gratitude house exercise, remind themselves of everyone they're carrying with them, to imagine that they're on your shoulders.

现在，当你要接受采访时，我要求人们花点时间重新反思感恩之家练习，提醒自己身边的每个人，想象他们在你的肩膀上。

All of those people, including your job search council of course, and everyone you've talked to and you're listening to, you're walking in with 50 people, Lenny, okay?

所有这些人，当然包括你的求职委员会，以及所有与你交谈过和你正在倾听的人，你和 50 个人一起走进来，莱尼，好吗？

Even people who tell me, "I don't know anyone." Now, that is not true.

甚至有人告诉我：“我不认识任何人。”但事实并非如此。

You might not know as many people as I do, okay?

你可能没有我认识的人那么多，好吗？

That's understandable.

这是可以理解的。

My job is to know people, but everyone knows some people and you bring them with you even metaphorically, so that you feel not alone when you're going into that interview.

我的工作是认识人，但每个人都认识一些人，你甚至可以隐喻地把他们带在身边，这样当你参加面试时你就不会感到孤独。

Phyl Terry: The other thing I say with the interview and the negotiations is you've got to go do the debrief right afterwards, Lenny.

菲尔·特里：我在采访和谈判中说的另一件事是，莱尼，你必须在采访结束后立即进行汇报。

Because we all have these cockamamie ideas about what happened.

因为我们对所发生的事情都有这些愚蠢的想法。

We think we did terribly when we did well, we think...

当我们做得很好时，我们认为我们做得很糟糕，我们认为......

We need to talk it through with someone else who can help us parse exactly what happened and really where we're at.

我们需要与其他人讨论一下，他们可以帮助我们准确地分析发生了什么以及我们真正所处的位置。

I had a woman who was a director of product, she was interviewing for a VP of product roles.

我有一位担任产品总监的女士，她正在面试产品副总裁的职位。

She texted me after the interview, "Oh, I screwed it up," this and that, this and that, "but they really liked me and we're going to go to the next round."

采访结束后她给我发短信说，“哦，我搞砸了，”这样那样，这样那样，“但他们真的很喜欢我，我们将进入下一轮。”

Phyl Terry: I'm like, "Wait a minute, wait a minute.

菲尔·特里：我说，“等一下，等一下。

Something is not true here."

这里有些事情不真实。”

Phyl Terry: This is just your own imposter syndrome and inner critic.

菲尔·特里：这只是你自己的冒名顶替综合症和内心的批评家。

That's another exercise we ask people to do, by the way, is what we call the inner critic exercise name the critic.

顺便说一句，这是我们要求人们做的另一项练习，就是我们所谓的“内在批评家练习”，即批评家。

Mine is Tub Tour.

我的是浴缸之旅。

I was overweight when I was a kid and my dad called me Tub Tour.

当我还是个孩子的时候，我超重了，我爸爸叫我“Tub Tour”。

Lenny Rachitsky: I learned that tactic from Julie Cameron from The Artist's Way, she recommends that.

Lenny Rachitsky：我从《艺术家之路》的朱莉·卡梅伦那里学到了这个策略，她推荐了这一点。

Phyl Terry: Yes, she's great.

菲尔·特里：是的，她很棒。

Love that book.

喜欢那本书。

By the way, it's on my bookshelf back there.

顺便说一句，它在我后面的书架上。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love that.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢这个。

I think I called mine Jim.

我想我给我的吉姆打电话了。

Yeah, we had a really good episode.

是的，我们度过了非常精彩的一集。

I don't know if you saw with Joe Hudson, he has a whole series of advice on your inner critic, and his point, and I'll point to it is your inner critic is always lying to you.

我不知道你是否看到乔·哈德森，他对你内心的批评者有一系列的建议，以及他的观点，我要指出的是，你内心的批评者总是在骗你。

Phyl Terry: I did see that episode.

菲尔·特里：我确实看过那集。

I love it.

我喜欢它。

We all have it.

我们都有。

People think, "Oh." Everyone.

人们会想：“哦。”每个人。

And that's what I love about this moment we're in too, Lenny.

这也是我喜欢我们现在所处的时刻的原因，莱尼。

I started in therapy in the 1980s.

我在 20 世纪 80 年代开始接受治疗。

In the 1980s, you did not share that you were in therapy, okay?

在 20 世纪 80 年代，你没有透露自己正在接受治疗，好吗？

Today, we have tennis stars talking about their emotional well-being and their therapy and how they're doing.

今天，我们邀请网球明星谈论他们的情绪健康、治疗方法以及他们的表现。

It's beginning to normalize in some really important ways that emotions, they're not bad.

在一些非常重要的方面，情绪开始正常化，它们并不坏。

They're actually really important to the decision-making system, but they can go off in certain ways that can really hurt us.

它们实际上对决策系统非常重要，但它们可能会以某些方式发挥作用，从而真正伤害我们。

Lenny Rachitsky: And it feels like these councils are like a lite therapy for people.

Lenny Rachitsky：感觉这些委员会就像是对人们的精简疗法。

Phyl Terry: Yes.

菲尔·特里：是的。

I would never want to say the word therapy because of course that implies certification and training, but there's a therapeutic aspect to it.

我永远不想说“治疗”这个词，因为这当然意味着认证和培训，但它也有治疗的一面。

I feel comfortable saying that, yeah.

我觉得这样说很舒服，是的。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

So on this gratitude house, just come back to it real quick.

所以在这个感恩之家，尽快回到它吧。

The reason that is powerful is that gives you confidence to ask for stuff to believe in yourself.

之所以强大，是因为它让你有信心去要求一些东西来相信自己。

You're worth something-

你是有价值的——

Phyl Terry: Gives you confidence to walk in there as who you are, Lenny.

菲尔·特里（Phyl Terry）：让你有信心以自己的身份走进去，莱尼。

Not as your inner critic, but as the whole good person that you are.

不是作为你内心的批评者，而是作为一个完整的好人。

And when you show up, this is one of the reasons job search councils are so important because if your anxiety and fear starts to run away and erode at your confidence, it will hurt your interview.

当你出现时，这就是求职委员会如此重要的原因之一，因为如果你的焦虑和恐惧开始消失并侵蚀你的信心，就会损害你的面试。

You will not show up well.

你不会表现得很好。

So you're not going to even, even in a down market you're going to get even, you won't even get the jobs that your candidate market fit suggests you're good for in that down market.

所以你不会，即使在低迷的市场中，你也会得到平衡，你甚至不会得到你的候选人市场适合的工作，表明你在低迷的市场中适合。

You're going to slide down a few more notches, or you just won't get offers, and then you're going to get paralyzed and feel like you're really worthless.

你会再下滑几个档次，或者你就拿不到offer，然后你就会陷入瘫痪，感觉自己真的一文不值。

Phyl Terry: And if anyone watching this has been out of work for a while and feels that, let me just tell you, you are not worthless.

菲尔·特里（Phyl Terry）：如果有人看到这个已经失业一段时间并感到这样，让我告诉你，你并不是一文不值。

You are not worthless.

你并非一文不值。

I want you to invest in yourself, to prove that to yourself that you're not worthless.

我希望你投资自己，向自己证明你不是一文不值。

You are worth the investment of this time and energy.

你值得投入这段时间和精力。

I'm not asking you to do this for me, I'm asking you to do this for you.

我不是要求你为我做这件事，我是要求你为你做这件事。

Lenny Rachitsky: You got tingles when you said that.

Lenny Rachitsky：当你这么说的时候，你感到很刺痛。

That was a really powerful message.

这是一个非常有力的信息。

I'm glad you said that.

我很高兴你这么说。

Lenny Rachitsky: So yeah, so we're on this topic of playing to win.

Lenny Rachitsky：是的，所以我们的主题是“为胜利而战”。

And what you just said is along the same lines is just remember, you're playing to win.

你刚才所说的也是同样的道理，记住，你是为了胜利而战。

You're not trying to lose, you're not trying to find-

你不是想失去，你不是想找到-

Phyl Terry: Not lose, just be really, I just can't say anything.

Phyl Terry：不是输，只是真实，我只是无话可说。

I just can't rock the boat.

我就是不能破坏现状。

I'm not asking you to rock the boat.

我不是要你搅局。

I'm asking you to take charge and demonstrate the power of who you are.

我要求你负起责任并展示你的力量。

These companies will love it.

这些公司会喜欢它。

Lenny Rachitsky: When I asked a lot of people to ask you what you're amazing at, one of those common themes is really good at just asking for help and teaching people how to ask for help, which was actually an topic for a recent newsletter post by one of my newsletter fellows, Natalie.

Lenny Rachitsky：当我问很多人问你擅长什么时，其中一个共同的主题就是善于寻求帮助并教人们如何寻求帮助，这实际上是我的一位时事通讯同事 Natalie 最近发表的时事通讯的主题。

So let's talk about it.

那么我们来谈谈吧。

Talk about why this is so important, why you spend so much thought and time on this topic.

谈谈为什么这如此重要，为什么你在这个话题上花费这么多的思考和时间。

Phyl Terry: First, I want to shout out my mom again.

Phyl Terry：首先，我想再次大声喊出我的妈妈。

So my mom's name, her nickname was Chic, C-H-I-C.

所以我妈妈的名字，她的昵称是 Chic，C-H-I-C。

Her friends and family and I dedicate the book to Chic, and she started that first council in 1960, and she asked for help.

我和她的朋友、家人将这本书献给 Chic，她于 1960 年发起了第一次理事会，并寻求帮助。

Of course, she taught me to ask for help, and to start councils.

当然，她教我寻求帮助并成立理事会。

And of course, when I was very young, I didn't want to do what my mother said, right?

当然，当我很小的时候，我并不想按照妈妈说的去做，对吧？

You're not.

你不。

But I ended up in a bad situation and she's like, "You've got to ask for help," and I asked my high school teachers for help.

但我最终陷入了困境，她说，“你必须寻求帮助”，我向高中老师寻求帮助。

I was an alcoholic at the age of 12, Lenny, and things were really spiraling downwards.

莱尼，我 12 岁时就酗酒了，而且事情真的每况愈下。

I was no longer living with my mom, there's a whole long story about that.

我不再和妈妈住在一起，这有一个很长的故事。

I was in a pretty unsupportive position, and she's like, "You've got to ask for help." And so I did.

我处于一个非常不支持的位置，她就像，“你必须寻求帮助。”我也这么做了。

Phyl Terry: And OMG, Lenny.

菲尔·特里：天啊，莱尼。

I mean, I was carried by these teachers.

我的意思是，我是被这些老师带去的。

And I also have to give a shout-out, and I'm going to cry now to my girlfriend in high school, Karen Kavanagh, whose family had very few resources.

我还必须大声疾呼，我现在要向我高中时的女朋友凯伦·卡瓦纳哭泣，她的家庭资源很少。

They were struggling, but they made a home for me, and I couldn't have done it without them and some of my other friends and my teachers.

他们在挣扎，但他们为我搭建了一个家，如果没有他们以及我的其他一些朋友和老师，我就不可能做到这一点。

I worked a full-time job by the age of 16 and I was going to high school, and I was in a tough situation.

16岁时，我开始做全职工作，当时我正要上高中，当时的处境很艰难。

It was transformative, Lenny.

这是变革性的，莱尼。

It was transformative.

这是变革性的。

Did I feel like asking for help was a weakness?

我是否觉得寻求帮助是一种弱点？

I did.

我做到了。

Did I think people were going to think less of me?

我是否认为人们会轻视我？

Absolutely.

绝对地。

I thought all the things that people think, and it is not what happens.

我想到了人们所想的所有事情，但事实并非如此。

Phyl Terry: Now, there is a warning here.

Phyl Terry：现在，这里有一个警告。

If you ask for help poorly, and I'm going to define that, it does end up leading to bad consequences.

如果你寻求帮助的方式很糟糕（我将对此进行定义），那么最终确实会导致不良后果。

What do I mean by asking you poorly?

我问你不好是什么意思？

I mean, if you don't do your homework, if you're asking for someone to do it for you rather than advise and support and give you perspective, we all know that.

我的意思是，如果你不做作业，如果你要求别人帮你做而不是建议、支持和给你观点，我们都知道这一点。

I get these emails, Lenny.

我收到这些电子邮件，莱尼。

So when I started the product councils, Marissa Mayer was a founding member, right?

所以当我成立产品委员会时，玛丽莎·梅耶尔是创始成员，对吧？

Marissa Mayer at Google and Miriam Moheed at Amazon.

谷歌的玛丽莎·梅耶尔 (Marissa Mayer) 和亚马逊的米里亚姆·莫希德 (Miriam Moheed)。

And as Marissa's reputation grew, suddenly everybody wanted to talk to Marissa.

随着玛丽莎的声誉越来越高，突然每个人都想和玛丽莎交谈。

Phyl Terry: So I got all these random emails from people I've never met.

Phyl Terry：所以我收到了来自我从未见过的人的随机电子邮件。

"Oh, I've got software, would you please introduce me to Marissa?

“哦，我有软件，你能把我介绍给玛丽莎吗？

I think she'd want to license it or buy at Google."

我认为她想获得许可或从谷歌购买。”

Phyl Terry: I'm like, "Who are you?

菲尔·特里：我想，“你是谁？

What?

什么？

That is the dumbest." Of course, I'm never going to answer that, right?

这是最愚蠢的。”当然，我永远不会回答这个问题，对吧？

Phyl Terry: If they had reached out to me and said, "I know you don't know me.

菲尔·特里：如果他们联系我并说：“我知道你不认识我。

I have this small software company.

我有一家小型软件公司。

I'm not well-connected, but I would love your advice on how to grow this business and what you would do if you were in my shoes," which I have never received, Lenny, even though I've written about it and said about, I would've done that phone call.

我的人脉并不广，但我很想听听你关于如何发展这项业务以及如果你处于我的处境你会做什么的建议，”莱尼，我从未收到过这些建议，尽管我已经写过这件事并说过，我会打那个电话。

Phyl Terry: And then if they have said, "Well, can I talk to Marissa?"

菲尔·特里：然后如果他们说：“好吧，我可以和玛丽莎谈谈吗？”

Phyl Terry: I'm like, "You have not earned that yet.

菲尔·特里：我想，“你还没有赢得这个。

That's not a statement about your worth.

这并不是关于你的价值的陈述。

It's just you're not ready for that conversation."

只是你还没有准备好进行那次对话。”

Phyl Terry: So you can do it poorly.

Phyl Terry：所以你可能会做得很糟糕。

But if you do it well, if you've done your homework and you're open, oh my gosh.

但如果你做得很好，如果你已经完成了你的功课并且你很开放，天哪。

There's four counterintuitive rules here.

这里有四个违反直觉的规则。

Asking for help is not a sign of weakness, it's a sign of confidence.

寻求帮助并不是软弱的表现，而是自信的表现。

It both requires confidence and strengthens it, Lenny.

它既需要信心又增强信心，莱尼。

That's number one.

这是第一。

Two, it's not a taking activity, it's a giving activity.

第二，这不是索取活动，而是给予活动。

If you do it well, you're actually being giving to the people you ask.

如果你做得好，你实际上就是在向你所要求的人提供帮助。

This is really counterintuitive, Lenny.

这确实违反直觉，莱尼。

This is what I teach in my product councils.

这就是我在产品委员会中教授的内容。

I'm like, "You have to ask for the money." If you ask for help and you're open and vulnerable, you're a smart person.

我说：“你必须要钱。”如果你寻求帮助并且态度开放且脆弱，那么你就是一个聪明人。

Phyl Terry: So at one point, Marissa came in and said, " Listen, I'm developing a new product.

菲尔·特里：有一次，玛丽莎进来说：“听着，我正在开发一种新产品。

I want to present it to the board, but I'd like your feedback on it first, and what do you guys think?" Am I approaching this in the right way?

我想把它提交给董事会，但我首先想得到你们的反馈，你们觉得怎么样？”我是否以正确的方式处理这个问题？

Phyl Terry: People were like, "What?" Google was already a public company at this point.

Phyl Terry：人们的反应是，“什么？”此时谷歌已经是一家上市公司。

Wow, that, they were just blown away.

哇，那，他们简直被震撼了。

They were so happy to help.

他们很乐意提供帮助。

Phyl Terry: So if you've done your homework and you ask someone who has some expertise in the area that you have, and you do it in this way, "I'd love your perspective and thoughts and how would you approach it?" People feel given to, they feel given to.

菲尔·特里：所以，如果你做了功课，然后询问在你所在领域有一定专业知识的人，并且你以这种方式这样做，“我很喜欢你的观点和想法，你会如何处理它？”人们感觉被给予，他们感觉被给予。

Here's the thought experiment that'll prove it.

这是可以证明这一点的思想实验。

Imagine that somebody that you respect comes to you for help on an area that you have expertise.

想象一下，您尊敬的某人在您擅长的领域向您寻求帮助。

And they ask you in this way, how are you going to feel, Lenny?

他们这样问你，你感觉如何，莱尼？

How do you feel?

你感觉如何？

Lenny Rachitsky: Like they value.

Lenny Rachitsky：就像他们重视的那样。

Like they value my opinion-

就像他们重视我的意见一样-

Phyl Terry: You feel honored, and you feel excited, and you love giving.

Phyl Terry：你会感到荣幸，你会感到兴奋，你喜欢给予。

Everyone loves giving, it's a part of human activity.

每个人都喜欢给予，这是人类活动的一部分。

And you learn more when you give, of course, because it helps you see something new.

当然，当你付出时你会学到更多，因为它可以帮助你看到新的东西。

Asking for help is not a sign of weakness.

寻求帮助并不是软弱的表现。

It's not a taking activity, it means you're becoming more independent, not independent, and it doesn't hurt your reputation, it improves it.

这不是一个索取活动，它意味着你变得更加独立，而不是独立，它不会损害你的声誉，它会提高它。

Something I did not understand when my mom was trying to tell me to do this, Lenny.

当我妈妈试图告诉我这样做时，我不明白，莱尼。

And it took the experience to drill into my head.

这段经历深深地印在了我的脑海里。

Phyl Terry: And then I will tell you, I won't name names, but one person that you asked, who's a prominent product person who's worked at great companies, right?

Phyl Terry：然后我会告诉你，我不会点名，但你问过一个人，他是一位在伟大公司工作过的杰出产品人员，对吧？

He said ask him about asking for help.

他说向他寻求帮助。

I think he would agree with this.

我想他会同意这一点。

He'd been a member of the product councils for a long time.

他长期以来一直是产品委员会的成员。

I think it took years before he really embraced it.

我认为他花了很多年才真正接受它。

I've seen many people, they're like, "Bill, I know you keep talking about this asking for help thing." And I know there's something to it, but it is transformative, Lenny.

我见过很多人，他们会说，“比尔，我知道你一直在谈论寻求帮助的事情。”我知道这其中有一定的道理，但它具有变革性，莱尼。

It is transformative if you learn to ask for help well.

如果你学会很好地寻求帮助，这将会带来变革。

Phyl Terry: I can tell you about Brad Smith at Intuit who toppled the stock price there.

菲尔·特里：我可以告诉你关于 Intuit 的布拉德·史密斯 (Brad Smith) 的故事，他推翻了那里的股价。

But he was a GM.

但他是一名总经理。

He became a CEO.

他成为了首席执行官。

He was a GM.

他是一名总经理。

He ran a project and he didn't do it well.

他经营了一个项目，但做得不好。

He lost $300 million for company.

他的公司损失了 3 亿美元。

He thought, okay, that's over.

他想，好吧，就这样结束了。

But they came to him and said, "What's your lesson here?"

但他们走过来问他：“你在这里学到了什么？”

Phyl Terry: He said, "I didn't ask for help.

菲尔·特里：他说，“我没有寻求帮助。

I was pigheaded.

我很顽固。

I didn't listen to my team." That's a great lesson, and if you really internalize that, then it's worth it because you're great in other ways.

我没有听我的团队的意见。”这是一个很好的教训，如果你真的将其内化，那么这是值得的，因为你在其他方面都很出色。

And he ended up getting to the CEO role.

他最终担任了首席执行官。

And what did he do?

他做了什么？

He joined a council, right?

他加入了一个委员会，对吗？

And he asked for help.

他请求帮助。

Boom, boom, boom.

繁荣，繁荣，繁荣。

Stock price goes up 7X in his tenure, okay?

在他任职期间股价上涨了 7 倍，好吗？

Phyl Terry: Kenneth Chenault at American Express.

菲尔·特里（Phyl Terry）：美国运通公司的肯尼思·切诺特（Kenneth Chenault）。

Joins in the 1980s, one of the few African Americans in professional roles there.

于 20 世纪 80 年代加入，是那里担任专业职务的少数非裔美国人之一。

Ends up as a CEO and chairman of the board.

最终担任首席执行官和董事会主席。

First African American chairman of a Fortune 50 company.

财富 50 强公司第一位非裔美国人董事长。

You ask Kenneth Chenault as I did, how'd you get there?

你像我一样问肯尼思·切诺特，你是怎么到达那里的？

He asked for help.

他请求帮助。

And by the way, what did he do once he became CEO?

顺便问一下，他成为首席执行官后做了什么？

He got on a CEO council.

他加入了首席执行官委员会。

Phyl Terry: And by the way, who asked for help?

Phyl Terry：顺便问一下，谁寻求帮助？

Well, this is going to blow your mind if you.

好吧，如果你的话，这会让你大吃一惊。

Warren Buffett.

沃伦·巴菲特。

People think Warren Buffett only listens to himself and Charlie Munger who passed away last year.

人们认为沃伦·巴菲特只听他自己和去年去世的查理·芒格的话。

That guy asked for help.

那家伙寻求帮助。

Well, it doesn't ask anybody for help.

嗯，它不会向任何人寻求帮助。

He asked people he respects and so on, but that guy asked for help.

他向他尊敬的人询问等等，但那个人寻求帮助。

Every single leader I've ever worked with that has done well asked for help.

与我共事过的每一位领导者都曾寻求帮助，做得很好。

And I have data in the book.

而且我书上有数据。

85% of the people get to a senior role credit asking for help to help get them there.

85% 的人获得高级职位荣誉时会寻求帮助以帮助他们实现这一目标。

85% of the people in a junior role say they're afraid to ask for help because they think it's a sign of weakness.

85% 的初级职位员工表示，他们害怕寻求帮助，因为他们认为这是软弱的表现。

Phyl Terry: It's literally the same number if you can believe that.

Phyl Terry：如果你相信的话，这实际上是相同的数字。

I couldn't believe it when I did the data.

当我做数据时我简直不敢相信。

I was like, "What?" But it's really, and guess what?

我当时想，“什么？”但这确实是，你猜怎么着？

If you don't learn to ask for help and you're a junior person, you're going to remain a junior person most likely.

如果你不学会寻求帮助，而你又是一个初级人员，那么你很可能仍然是一个初级人员。

Lenny Rachitsky: When you say ask for help, what are some examples and common times and uses of asking for help?

Lenny Rachitsky：当你说寻求帮助时，寻求帮助的一些例子、常见时间和用途是什么？

Because it could be like, "Hey, can you just look at this email for me?" Or is it like, "I'm struggling with this project?" What are some things that you've seen when people think ask for help do this.

因为它可能会这样，“嘿，你能帮我看一下这封电子邮件吗？”或者是“我在这个项目上遇到困难？”当人们认为寻求帮助时，您会看到哪些事情？

Phyl Terry: One of the things that Kinshaw talks about is what he calls defining reality.

菲尔·特里：金肖谈论的事情之一就是他所谓的定义现实。

So it's a CEO at American Express, he was constantly just going around and asking different people in the company and outside the company, "How do you see things?

这是美国运通公司的首席执行官，他不断地四处询问公司内外的不同人，“你如何看待事情？

What are you seeing?

你看到什么了？

What are you thinking?

你在想什么？

Help me understand your perspective," right?

帮助我理解你的观点，”对吧？

So that's a form of asking for help, for sure.

所以这当然是寻求帮助的一种形式。

Okay.

好的。

Phyl Terry: Reviewing my email absolutely is a great form of asking for help.

Phyl Terry：查看我的电子邮件绝对是寻求帮助的一种很好的形式。

If you're sending a good email, an important email let's say, and let's say you have a history of maybe sending emails that don't get well received, you go ask for help.

如果您发送了一封很好的电子邮件，比方说是一封重要的电子邮件，并且您有发送电子邮件但未收到好评的历史记录，那么您可以寻求帮助。

And by the way, I have a whole workshop where I teach people how to use ChatGPT with some communication models to help you with that email.

顺便说一句，我举办了一个完整的研讨会，教人们如何使用 ChatGPT 和一些通信模型来帮助您处理电子邮件。

So there's ways to do that with ChatGPT.

因此，有多种方法可以使用 ChatGPT 来做到这一点。

But I still, if it's a really important email, want you to have eyes on, right?

但如果这是一封非常重要的电子邮件，我仍然希望您能够关注，对吧？

Phyl Terry: There's a woman who became the president of a digital retailer in the United States about five years ago, and then she realized that she had significant technical debt.

Phyl Terry：大约五年前，有一位女士成为美国一家数字零售商的总裁，然后她意识到自己背负着沉重的技术债务。

The project, they were trying to build a new platform, and it was stuck.

该项目，他们试图建立一个新的平台，但陷入了困境。

So we convened what we call a peer coaching call, and I also talked about this in the book.

所以我们召开了所谓的同伴辅导电话会议，我也在书中谈到了这一点。

We got three other presidents of retailers, online retailers who had re-platformed and spent an hour, just one hour with her asking them for help.

我们还有另外三位零售商、在线零售商的总裁，他们重新构建了平台，并花了一个小时，只有一个小时向她寻求帮助。

"What would you do if you were in my position?" I mean, bing, bang, boom.

“如果你处于我的位置，你会怎么做？”我的意思是，嘭、嘭、嘭。

Phyl Terry: So when people get a new job, by the way, I tell them, do a first 90 days peer coaching call.

菲尔·特里：所以，顺便说一句，当人们找到新工作时，我告诉他们，进行第一个 90 天的同伴辅导电话会议。

I want you to talk to people who are in that role today.

我希望你能和今天扮演这个角色的人谈谈。

Not at that company necessarily, but they're a director of product, they're a VP of product, whatever it might be.

不一定是在那家公司，但他们是产品总监，他们是产品副总裁，无论是什么。

And I want you to say, "Hey, I'm starting this job.

我希望你说：“嘿，我要开始这份工作了。

Here's my job mission with OKRs.

这是我的 OKR 工作使命。

What would you do if you were in my shoes?

如果你处于我的处境，你会怎么做？

What mistakes have you seen others or yourself make that I need to avoid?

您看到其他人或您自己犯过哪些我需要避免的错误？

What should I focus on?

我应该关注什么？

Here's what I'm thinking for my 30, 60, 90."

这就是我对 30 岁、60 岁、90 岁的想法。”

Phyl Terry: Whatever it might be, I want you to do a first 90 days call.

菲尔·特里：不管是什么，我希望你能在第一个 90 天的时间内打个电话。

Now, let's say you're a director of product in a job is going well, and you want to get to a VP of product role.

现在，假设您是产品总监，工作进展顺利，并且您想担任产品副总裁。

Well then, I want you to do a career evolution call where you're talking to VPs of product.

那么，我希望您进行一次职业发展电话会议，与产品副总裁交谈。

"Okay, I'm a director.

“好吧，我是导演。

I want to become a VP.

我想成为副总裁。

How do I get from A to B?

我如何从 A 到 B？

Will you tell me?" And that's another peer coach you call.

你会告诉我吗？”那是你打电话给的另一位同伴教练。

So these are the things we do in the paid community, in the product councils and stuff.

这些就是我们在付费社区、产品委员会等中所做的事情。

But you can do these on your own, right?

但你可以自己做这些，对吗？

And I tell people how to do them on their own in the job search councils.

我告诉人们如何在求职委员会中自己做这些事情。

Lenny Rachitsky: Absolutely.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：当然。

I think all these examples you're sharing is exactly I think what people are wondering.

我认为您分享的所有这些例子正是人们所想知道的。

Just like, okay, I see.

就像，好吧，我明白了。

Phyl Terry: That's so great.

菲尔·特里：那太棒了。

So Bradley Horowitz joined Google in 2008 as director of product.

因此，布拉德利·霍洛维茨 (Bradley Horowitz) 于 2008 年加入 Google，担任产品总监。

He had come from Yahoo, but he was initially intimidated.

他来自雅虎，但一开始他感到害怕。

He had a weekly meeting with Jonathan Rosenberg, who was the SVP of product, with Susan Wojcicki.

他每周与产品高级副总裁乔纳森·罗森伯格（Jonathan Rosenberg）和苏珊·沃西基（Susan Wojcicki）举行一次会议。

Susan just passed away tragically.

苏珊刚刚不幸去世。

Absolutely fabulous person by the way, if people don't don't know her, go learn about her.

顺便说一句，绝对是一个很棒的人，如果人们不认识她，那就去了解她吧。

Marissa Mayer, and also another director of product named Sundar Pichai, right?

Marissa Mayer，还有另一位产品总监 Sundar Pichai，对吧？

Who is now the CEO of Google.

谁现在是谷歌的首席执行官。

And Bradley, he was nervous, he didn't know how to be in that meeting.

布拉德利很紧张，他不知道如何参加那个会议。

Phyl Terry: One of the things I tell people, when you ask for help, use your emotional intelligence, use your product council if you're in a job or your job search council, if you're looking to get feedback on, am I thinking about this well?

Phyl Terry：我告诉人们的一件事是，当你寻求帮助时，请使用你的情商，如果你在工作，请使用你的产品委员会或求职委员会，如果你希望获得反馈，我是否考虑得很好？

Because I don't want you to ask the wrong people for help.

因为我不想让你向错误的人寻求帮助。

Someone who's going to take advantage of that.

有人会利用这一点。

You have to be thoughtful about this.

你必须深思熟虑这一点。

Phyl Terry: He was picking up vibes from Sundar that he was very approachable, that he lacked guile.

菲尔·特里：他从桑达尔那里感受到了他非常平易近人，缺乏狡诈。

Bradley told me Sundar just made it easy for him to say, "Hey, after one of these meetings, could I ask you a couple of questions?" And he says, first question he has is, "Is this meeting, is it just me or is this meeting intense?"

布拉德利告诉我，桑达尔让他很容易地说：“嘿，在其中一次会议之后，我可以问你几个问题吗？”他说，他的第一个问题是，“这次会议是只有我一个人参加还是这次会议很激烈？”

Phyl Terry: Sundar was like, "Oh, no, no, this is intense.

菲尔·特里：桑达尔说，“哦，不，不，这太激烈了。

I feel the same way you do and I've been here for a couple of years."

我和你有同样的感觉，而且我已经在这里呆了几年了。”

Phyl Terry: So they start to build a bond, and that's a form of asking for help.

菲尔·特里：所以他们开始建立联系，这是寻求帮助的一种形式。

It's like you're checking, is your experience the same as mine or am I missing something?

就像你在检查，你的经历和我的一样还是我错过了什么？

And then Horowitz who felt relieved at this point, felt more trust with Sundar, decided to ask him another question and this question.

霍洛维茨这才松了口气，对桑达尔更加信任，决定再问他一个问题，也就是这个问题。

And by the way, now Bradley, he's kind of embarrassed that he asked this question, although I'm really happy that he did, I told him this.

顺便说一句，现在布拉德利，他对自己问这个问题感到有点尴尬，尽管我很高兴他这样做了，我告诉了他这一点。

Phyl Terry: He asked this question, he basically said, " I haven't been here very long, but you, Sundar, you strike me."

菲尔·特里：他问了这个问题，他基本上是说，“我来这里不久，但是你，桑达尔，你让我震惊。”

Phyl Terry: "I haven't been here very long, but you, Sundar, you strike me as a really thoughtful person and great leader.

菲尔·特里：“我来这里的时间不长，但你，桑达尔，给我的印象是一个非常有思想的人和伟大的领导者。

Why is your remit just working on a toolbar for Marissa?" Whoa.

为什么你的职责只是为玛丽莎制作工具栏？”哇哦。

Heard the wrong way, that could sound like an insult or something, rather than an honest attempt to understand the culture of Google and how it operates.

如果听错了，这可能听起来像是一种侮辱或其他什么，而不是诚实地尝试了解谷歌的文化及其运作方式。

But again, he had trust with Sundar at this point.

但此时他再次对桑达尔充满了信任。

And it was an open and vulnerable question, and it was great.

这是一个开放且脆弱的问题，这很棒。

Pitch I basically said, "Listen, I don't worry about title or scope or any of that.

我基本上说，“听着，我不担心标题或范围或任何其他问题。

I've really been focused on just doing good work and letting the right things happen.

我真的专注于做好工作并让正确的事情发生。

That's the culture of Google." I will tell you that that was more true of the culture of Google in a way that's not so...

这就是谷歌的文化。”我会告诉你，谷歌的文化更是如此，但事实并非如此……

Phyl Terry: You have to be a little more politically aware at Google today.

菲尔·特里：今天在谷歌你必须提高一点政治意识。

But the point is not so much the exact question he asked, but that he was open and vulnerable.

但重点不在于他问的问题到底是什么，而在于他的开放和脆弱。

He was thoughtful about who he asked, and it really made a difference in terms of his entry into Google and eventually led him to the VP of Product role.

他对询问的对象进行了深思熟虑，这对他进入谷歌确实产生了影响，并最终让他担任了产品副总裁的职位。

Of course, Sundar came into the CEO role down the road, but that's what I'm talking about, right?

当然，桑达尔后来担任了首席执行官，但这就是我所说的，对吧？

He was part of the product councils, Bradley.

他是布拉德利产品委员会的成员。

You need to have that sounding board so you can be thoughtful about...

你需要有一个共鸣板，这样你才能深思熟虑......

I teach people how to map and figure out who their allies are and their blockers and play what I call positive politics.

我教人们如何绘制地图并找出他们的盟友和阻碍者，并发挥我所说的积极政治的作用。

That's all in my next book, Never Lead Alone, just to give a little.

这就是我的下一本书《永远不要独自领导》中的全部内容，仅供参考。

Don't worry, at least a year away.

别担心，至少还有一年。

Phyl Terry: When I write a book, I do...

菲尔·特里：当我写书时，我会……

I did 400 drafts of Never Search Alone.

我为《Never Search Alone》起草了 400 份草稿。

I had a couple of thousand people help me with it and 200 people read it and use it.

有几千人帮助我完成它，还有 200 人阅读并使用它。

I had 2,500 comments and 400 drafts.

我收到了 2,500 条评论和 400 份草稿。

I like to really dock through this stuff.

我真的很喜欢通过这些东西进行对接。

I'm doing the same with Never Lead Alone.

我也在《永不独自领导》中做同样的事情。

That's how I know it works, by the way.

顺便说一句，我就是这样知道它是有效的。

I'm a prouded person, Lenny.

我是一个自豪的人，莱尼。

I mean, that's what we do.

我的意思是，这就是我们所做的。

Lenny Rachitsky: .

莱尼·拉奇茨基：。

That's amazing.

太棒了。

Let me ask one last question around the art of asking for help.

让我问最后一个关于寻求帮助的艺术的问题。

So we've talked about when to ask for help a little bit.

我们已经讨论了何时寻求帮助。

What are just a couple tips for how to do it well?

关于如何做好这件事的一些技巧是什么？

You know, people come to me and like, "Hey, can you look at this email?" And be like, "No. I'm pretty busy.

你知道，人们来找我，说：“嘿，你能看一下这封电子邮件吗？”然后说：“不。我很忙。

I don't know if I have time to look at an email."

我不知道我是否有时间看电子邮件。”

Phyl Terry: Have to think about the relationship, right?

Phyl Terry：必须考虑一下这种关系，对吧？

Again, showing that this random, small software company wanted to talk to Marissa Meyer.

再次表明，这家随机的小型软件公司想要与 Marissa Meyer 交谈。

I didn't know them, they didn't know me, and they didn't know Marissa.

我不认识他们，他们不认识我，他们也不认识玛丽莎。

That's not going to happen, right?

那不会发生，对吧？

Lenny, if your mom or your close friend or your colleague who you work closely with says, "I want you to look at this email," you're going to respond in one way.

莱尼，如果你的妈妈或你的密友或与你密切合作的同事说：“我希望你看看这封电子邮件”，你会以一种方式回应。

If some person, let's say in your podcast community, which is great, wants you to do it, I mean, you have thousands of people there.

如果有人，比如说在你的播客社区，这很棒，希望你这样做，我的意思是，那里有成千上万的人。

You can't do that.

你不能那样做。

People come to me for job search advice in the job search community.

人们在求职社区向我寻求求职建议。

I said, "I can't do that.

我说：“我不能那样做。

I can't scale that.

我无法衡量这一点。

That's what the Job Search Council and the Slack community is there for.

这就是求职委员会和 Slack 社区的作用。

I appreciate you asking, but that's what the deal is there."

我很感谢你提出这个问题，但这就是交易的内容。”

Phyl Terry: You got to think about the relationship.

Phyl Terry：你必须考虑一下这种关系。

Listen to your emotions.

倾听你的情绪。

This is where, again, emotions are really important for decision making.

这又是情感对于决策非常重要的地方。

If your emotions are telling you, "I don't know if I trust this person," don't get all open and vulnerable with them.

如果你的情绪告诉你，“我不知道我是否信任这个人”，不要对他们表现得开放和脆弱。

I want you to learn to ask for help in a counsel format where it's really safe.

我希望您学会以真正安全的咨询形式寻求帮助。

You can flail around.

你可以四处乱窜。

You can ask in fakakta ways.

您可以通过 fakakta 方式询问。

There's ways to ask for help where it's like...

有多种方法可以寻求帮助，例如......

Have you experienced this, Lenny?

莱尼，你有过这样的经历吗？

Where I want you to do me a favor, but I'm actually acting like I'm doing you a favor.

我想让你帮我一个忙，但我实际上表现得好像我在帮你一个忙。

Lenny, I have this person to talk to I know is really going to be great for you to talk to, when really I'm trying to get you to give me...

莱尼，我有一个可以交谈的人，我知道与你交谈真的很棒，而我真的想让你给我......

Whereas I should said, "Lenny, I have a favor to ask.

而我应该说：“莱尼，我有件事想请你帮个忙。

Would you be willing to do this?" You just say yes or no. That's the other thing, I really want you to be honest with people about what you're asking.

你愿意这么做吗？”你只要说是或不是。这是另一件事，我真的希望你能诚实地告诉人们你所问的问题。

I never want you to hide the ask.

我从不希望你隐藏这个问题。

Lenny Rachitsky: That is really good advice.

Lenny Rachitsky：这真是个好建议。

A lot of times it's just, yeah, okay, if this is just a favor for you, absolutely.

很多时候，只是，是的，好吧，如果这只是对你的一个恩惠，绝对可以。

Phyl Terry: I mean, if people would say to me, "I have a favor to ask.

菲尔·特里：我的意思是，如果人们对我说：“我有件事要请。

Would you be willing?" "Yeah." Most of the time I'm going to say yes to that, you know?

你愿意吗？” “是的。”大多数时候我都会对此说“是”，你知道吗？

Phyl Terry: Do you get cold introductions, Lenny?

菲尔·特里：莱尼，你会得到冷淡的介绍吗？

Lenny Rachitsky: Where people introduce me to someone else without asking.

Lenny Rachitsky：人们不经询问就将我介绍给其他人。

Yeah.

是的。

It's not a super common, but it does happen, for sure.

这不是一个非常常见的现象，但它确实会发生，这是肯定的。

Phyl Terry: It almost never is someone you want to talk to.

Phyl Terry：几乎从来都不是你想与之交谈的人。

Phyl Terry: It's not like, "Hey, let me introduce you to Sergey Brin," you know?

菲尔·特里：这不是“嘿，让我把你介绍给谢尔盖·布林”，你知道吗？

Phyl Terry: It's .

菲尔·特里：是的。

No. It's like they're trying to help somebody and you're doing them a favor, but they're not being honest.

不，就好像他们试图帮助别人，而你却帮了他们一个忙，但他们并不诚实。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。

Okay.

好的。

That's amazing advice.

这是很棒的建议。

Phyl, we could talk for hours about so many things.

菲尔，我们可以谈论很多事情几个小时。

You're involved in so many other things I want to hear about, but maybe one last question before we start to close out our chat.

你还参与了我想听的很多其他事情，但也许是我们开始结束聊天之前的最后一个问题。

Just a broad question, is there anything else that you think would be valuable for people to know or leave with as kind of a final note around either job hunting, asking for help, anything else?

只是一个广泛的问题，您认为还有什么其他事情对人们有价值，或者作为关于求职、寻求帮助或其他任何事情的最后说明吗？

And then I'm going to ask you to share all the things that you do for people that maybe could benefit from one of these other programs.

然后我将请您分享您为那些可能从这些其他计划之一中受益的人们所做的所有事情。

Phyl Terry: When my book came out, we did a book party in New York and the host of it, very senior product person, got up and said, "The most important thing about this book that I learned," and they run a Job Search Council, "was, and I said this earlier, but I want to come back to it, everyone feels anxious and insecure in the job search." Lenny, everyone.

菲尔·特里：当我的书出版时，我们在纽约举办了一个读书派对，主持人是一位非常资深的产品人员，他站起来说，“我从这本书中学到的最重要的事情”，他们经营着一个求职委员会，“是，我之前说过，但我想回到这个话题，每个人在求职过程中都感到焦虑和不安全。”莱尼，大家。

It's built into the fabric of how capitalism operates.

它已融入资本主义运作的结构中。

It's not something problematic in your head.

这在你的头脑中并不是什么问题。

It's the instability of the system, which gives it its dynamism, but which also creates trends in security and fear.

正是系统的不稳定性赋予了它活力，但也造成了安全和恐惧的趋势。

Everyone feels that, Lenny.

每个人都这么觉得，莱尼。

You are not alone.

你并不孤单。

But my saying that is not enough.

但我的说法还不够。

What I say in the book is that this book is like a cookbook.

我在书中所说的是，这本书就像一本食谱。

You don't get the calories from reading it.

你不会从阅读中获得卡路里。

You got to actually make the dishes.

你必须真正做菜。

To experience what I'm saying, you need a Job Search Council and you need to go like, "Oh my gosh, it's really true, I'm not alone.

为了体验我所说的，你需要一个求职委员会，你需要这样说：“天哪，这是真的，我并不孤单。

Even Lenny.

就连莱尼.

Lenny feels this.

莱尼感觉到了这一点。

Holy, I respect Lenny.

天哪，我尊重莱尼。

Wow, look at everything Lenny has done and created, and he feels this way.

哇，看看莱尼所做和创造的一切，他有这样的感觉。

Maybe I'm not crazy." There's so much else to this, but that is such a core point.

也许我没有疯。”还有很多其他内容，但这是一个核心点。

Lenny Rachitsky: That's such an important point to leave with.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是非常重要的一点。

And just to build on exactly what you just said about me, this strange life that I've created for myself, I originally called the project Avoid Getting a Real Job because I was worried about that.

为了建立在你刚才所说的关于我的基础上，我为自己创造了这种奇怪的生活，我最初将这个项目称为“避免找到一份真正的工作”，因为我对此感到担心。

I forced myself to try something else instead.

我强迫自己尝试其他事情。

Phyl Terry: That's amazing.

菲尔·特里：太棒了。

That's amazing.

太棒了。

That's great.

那太棒了。

Well, thank you, because you have created something that's really meaningful to a lot of people, Lenny.

好吧，谢谢你，因为你创造了一些对很多人来说真正有意义的东西，莱尼。

Lenny Rachitsky: Thanks, Phyl.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：谢谢，菲儿。

So have you.

你也是。

I'm so thankful that you made time to share so much advice.

我非常感谢您抽出时间分享这么多建议。

I think this is going to be one of the popular episodes I've done.

我认为这将是我做过的最受欢迎的剧集之一。

I think it's going to help a ton of people, but we're not done yet.

我认为这会帮助很多人，但我们还没有完成。

Tell us about some of the other stuff that you've got going on.

告诉我们您正在进行的其他一些事情。

You've mentioned product councils, you do coaching, just so people know what else might benefit them.

您提到了产品委员会，您进行辅导，只是为了让人们知道还有什么可以使他们受益。

Phyl Terry: 21 years ago I started these product councils.

Phyl Terry：21 年前我创办了这些产品委员会。

And by the way, I like to show this Marty Cagan, and I go back to the late nineties, early...

顺便说一句，我喜欢展示这个马蒂·凯根，我会回到九十年代末，早些时候......

He was actually a client of mine when he was at eBay.

他实际上是我在 eBay 时的客户。

Phyl Terry: And I'll tell you what happened.

菲尔·特里：我会告诉你发生了什么。

We were about to sign a project and he decided, he called me up.

我们正要签署一个项目，他决定了，他给我打电话。

Literally, we were signing that day.

从字面上看，那天我们正在签约。

He called me up, "Phyl, I got bad news." "I mean, what are you telling me?"

他打电话给我，“菲尔，我有坏消息。” “我是说，你要告诉我什么？”

Phyl Terry: "I'm leaving and I'm starting something." And he started the Silicon Valley Product Group.

菲尔·特里：“我要离开了，我要开始做一些事情了。”他创立了硅谷产品小组。

Phyl Terry: But why am I saying that?

菲尔·特里：但我为什么要这么说呢？

Because that was around the time that I started the councils and I started with Marissa.

因为那是我开始理事会的时间，我从玛丽莎开始。

Basically, I went out and did a listening to her Lenny and I said, "Listen, I think for those of us left in the digital world after this depression, I think we need a place to come together that's not a conference with sponsors and people that are all trying to sell each other.

基本上，我出去听了她的莱尼，我说：“听着，我认为对于我们这些在这场大萧条之后留在数字世界的人来说，我认为我们需要一个聚集在一起的地方，而不是一个与赞助商和试图互相推销的人一起参加的会议。

We need a private, safe, secure environment to really talk.

我们需要一个私密、安全、有保障的环境来真正交谈。

Does that resonate with you?

这引起你的共鸣吗？

Do you want that?" And they were like, "Yes," so I started this thing and Marty has been involved from day one.

你想要那个吗？”他们说，“是的”，所以我开始了这件事，马蒂从第一天起就参与其中。

He has sent me something like 30% involved with members we've had over the years.

他给我发了一些资料，其中大约有 30% 是我们多年来的会员参与的。

We've had a couple thousand members and he just sends people over, which has been amazing.

我们有几千名会员，他就派人过来，这真是太棒了。

Phyl Terry: And so we have product councils for VPs and CPOs.

Phyl Terry：因此我们为副总裁和首席产品官设立了产品委员会。

We also have an associate council program for ICs and new managers.

我们还为 IC 和新经理制定了准理事会计划。

We started that a couple of years ago.

我们几年前就开始这样做了。

It focuses on women and people of color and LGBTQ, but not exclusively.

它关注的是女性、有色人种和 LGBTQ，但不限于此。

So you can be a white guy who's straight, whatever, and you're a product manager.

所以你可以是一个异性恋的白人，无论如何，你是一名产品经理。

What we care most about is if you're willing to ask for help, and you're really committed to being there for each other and being a part of this community and activity.

我们最关心的是您是否愿意寻求帮助，并且您是否真正致力于互相帮助并成为这个社区和活动的一部分。

And so that's what I've been doing for years.

这就是我多年来一直在做的事情。

And I have a great team and amazing...

我有一支很棒的团队，而且很棒......

Teresa Torres was one of the moderators of our private councils, by the way, and great friend, and been on the podcast here.

顺便说一句，特蕾莎·托雷斯是我们私人委员会的主持人之一，也是一位好朋友，并且参加过这里的播客。

Gino, obviously great friend of yours.

吉诺，显然是你的好朋友。

She asked me to really emphasize asking for help and share some of the stories that I did.

她要求我真正强调寻求帮助并分享我所做的一些故事。

She's just been such an important part of my life.

她是我生命中如此重要的一部分。

I can't say enough about her.

关于她我不能说太多。

Phyl Terry: We've got those and we have CEO groups and we have .

菲尔·特里：我们有这些，我们有首席执行官小组，我们有。

That's my day job.

这就是我的日常工作。

That's sort of what pays the bills and I've been doing for 20 plus years now.

这就是支付账单的方式，我已经这样做了 20 多年。

But then I also have a series of other learning communities.

但我还有一系列其他学习社区。

I'm one of these, I read.

我读到，我就是其中之一。

If you asked me, "If you had one job title, what would it be?" Reader.

如果你问我：“如果你有一个职位，你会选择什么？”读者。

I read, Lenny.

我读过，莱尼。

Books are machines to think with.

书籍是思考的机器。

Books are machines to think with.

书籍是思考的机器。

And I'm on a campaign to get more people reading more because...

我正在开展一项活动，让更多人阅读更多内容，因为……

And product leaders need to read more.

产品领导者需要阅读更多内容。

I have a whole bunch of book recommendations on my Lenny page, by the way, that are for product leaders, and we can talk about a few of those.

顺便说一句，我的 Lenny 页面上有一大堆针对产品领导者的书籍推荐，我们可以讨论其中的一些。

But I also run something called the Reading Odyssey, which is a partnership between scholars and readers at Harvard, Cambridge, for lifelong learning and curiosity.

但我还开展了一项名为“阅读奥德赛”的活动，这是哈佛、剑桥的学者和读者之间的合作伙伴关系，旨在促进终身学习和好奇心。

Phyl Terry: I run the World Business Reading Group for high school students.

Phyl Terry：我负责管理面向高中生的世界商业阅读小组。

It's a high school business literacy.

这是高中商业素养。

Not financial literacy, business literacy program based on the philosophy of Warren Buffett and Charlie Mugger.

不是金融素养，而是基于沃伦·巴菲特和查理·穆格哲学的商业素养计划。

And taught by really senior executives, like partners at venture capital firms, hedge funds.

由真正的高级管理人员授课，例如风险投资公司、对冲基金的合伙人。

And I'm an investor.

我是一名投资者。

We have this amazing faculty.

我们拥有如此出色的师资队伍。

It's pro bono.

这是无偿的。

We're all volunteer.

我们都是志愿者。

We have a small charge for middle class families and it's free for anyone who can't afford it.

我们对中产阶级家庭收取少量费用，对负担不起的人免费。

And it's a summer program and it's going gangbusters.

这是一个暑期项目，而且非常火爆。

What else?

还有什么？

Phyl Terry: Oh, Slow Art Day.

菲尔·特里：哦，慢艺术日。

So one of the things I teach people is that you need to develop mentors.

所以我教给人们的一件事是你需要培养导师。

Most people do not have mentors, Lenny.

大多数人没有导师，莱尼。

95% of the people in my community of senior product leaders do not have mentors.

我的高级产品领导社区中 95% 的人没有导师。

And mentorship programs, it's like the typewriter.

导师计划就像打字机。

Our parents or grandparents have them, but we don't have them.

我们的父母或祖父母有它们，但我们没有。

The companies don't offer.

公司不提供。

One of the ways that everyone listening to this podcast today can get a mentor, you can get what I call a dead or distant mentor.

今天收听这个播客的每个人都可以获得导师的方式之一，你可以得到我所说的已故或遥远的导师。

Warren Buffett is my mentor, he just doesn't know it, which is great.

沃伦·巴菲特是我的导师，他只是不知道这一点，这很棒。

I don't have to listen to everything he says and he doesn't have to take my calls.

我不必听他说的一切，他也不必接我的电话。

Steve Jobs is my mentor.

史蒂夫·乔布斯是我的导师。

And when I talk about mentor, I don't mean just, hey, I'm a fan, or I like the products, or I read the biography.

当我谈论导师时，我的意思不仅仅是，嘿，我是粉丝，或者我喜欢这些产品，或者我读了传记。

I mean really study.

我的意思是真正学习。

Phyl Terry: If you really study Jobs, you have to come to 1997.

Phyl Terry：如果你真正研究乔布斯，你必须来到 1997 年。

He's interim CEO.

他是临时首席执行官。

So he was fired from Apple in '84, '85.

所以他在 84 年、85 年被苹果解雇了。

Actually, after the Mac came out.

事实上，Mac问世之后。

He wandered the wilderness for 10 years.

他在荒野里流浪了10年。

He created a company called Next, which wasn't next.

他创建了一家名为“Next”的公司，但它并不是“Next”。

And then in '95, '96, Apple buys the operating system from Next, and the company is in really bad shape and makes Steve the interim CEO.

然后在 95、96 年，苹果从 Next 购买了操作系统，公司的状况非常糟糕，并让史蒂夫担任临时首席执行官。

Interim.

临时。

They wouldn't give him the full title.

他们不会给他完整的头衔。

They're like, "Ah, the business is so terrible.

他们会说：“啊，生意太糟糕了。

You're going to destroy it anyway.

无论如何你都会毁掉它。

Whatever.

无论如何。

You'll be interim." And he does a bunch of stuff, but he gives a talk in 1997.

你就当临时的吧。”他做了很多事情，但他在 1997 年做了一次演讲。

He's got tattered hole jeans.

他穿着破烂的破洞牛仔裤。

There's 300 people at the developers conference.

开发者大会有 300 人参加。

They all are pissed off.

他们都很生气。

And he gets up there and he says, "You have to start with the customer, not with the technology." And that's what we're doing it at.

他站起来说：“你必须从客户开始，而不是从技术开始。”这就是我们正在做的事情。

People talk about that customer.

人们谈论那个客户。

If you really study Jobs, that's what he did.

如果你真正研究乔布斯，就会发现他就是这么做的。

Phyl Terry: And what does that mean?

菲尔·特里：这是什么意思？

I can tell you there's a lot of product people, Lenny, who talk about customer and don't really focus.

我可以告诉你，莱尼，有很多产品人员只谈论客户，但并不真正关注。

And if you really study that moment and study what Jobs did, it can inform your decisions and actions.

如果你真正研究那一刻并研究乔布斯做了什么，它可以为你的决定和行动提供信息。

So one of the things that Jobs also talked about was the power of art and that everyone needs to go to art museums and that you need to be inspired and it will help you think about design if you create great products.

因此，乔布斯还谈到的一件事是艺术的力量，每个人都需要去艺术博物馆，你需要受到启发，如果你创造出伟大的产品，它将帮助你思考设计。

So I started a company, something called Slow Art Day, which has now been in 1,500 museums around the world.

所以我创办了一家名为“慢艺术日”的公司，目前该公司已在全球 1,500 家博物馆中展出。

It teaches people how to slow down and look.

它教会人们如何放慢脚步并观察。

And especially for Lenny's podcast, I am making free both the teacher materials, the leader materials, and the participant materials so that all of your podcast listeners who are running product teams can go to a local museum and do an offsite and develop more visual literacy, empathy, connection with each other, and an understanding of art that will help them be better .

特别是对于 Lenny 的播客，我将免费提供教师材料、领导者材料和参与者材料，以便所有管理产品团队的播客听众都可以去当地的博物馆，进行场外活动，培养更多的视觉素养、同理心、相互联系以及对艺术的理解，这将帮助他们变得更好。

Lenny Rachitsky: That is amazing.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

I'm going to try to do that myself.

我自己会尝试这样做。

Lenny Rachitsky: So you mentioned Marty Cagan and Christian a couple times, and Marty Cagan described Chris as the most interesting person in the world.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：所以你多次提到了马蒂·凯根和克里斯蒂安，马蒂·凯根将克里斯描述为世界上最有趣的人。

I feel like you deserve that title.

我觉得你配得上这个称号。

You're doing so much and so much good and so much variety of things.

你做了那么多、那么多好事、那么多各种各样的事情。

It's really impressive.

这确实令人印象深刻。

And the amount of impact you're having is wild.

你所产生的影响力是巨大的。

Phyl Terry: Thank you.

菲尔·特里：谢谢。

It really means a lot.

这确实意义重大。

Lenny Rachitsky: I'm just saying it how it is.

Lenny Rachitsky：我只是这么说。

I'm really thankful you've shared so much wisdom on this podcast with everyone.

我真的很感谢你在这个播客上与大家分享了这么多的智慧。

I think that's going to help so many people.

我认为这会对很多人有帮助。

We're also not done yet.

我们还没有完成。

We've reached our very exciting lightning round.

我们已经进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。

Phyl, are you ready?

菲尔，你准备好了吗？

Phyl Terry: I am ready for lightning round.

菲尔·特里：我已经准备好参加闪电回合了。

Lenny Rachitsky: Here we go.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我们开始吧。

And you've talked about books.

你也谈到了书籍。

I imagine you're going to have an answer for this.

我想你对此会有答案。

Lenny Rachitsky: What are two or three books that you've recommended most to other people?

Lenny Rachitsky：您向其他人推荐最多的两三本书是什么？

Phyl Terry: Of course, I've recommended hundreds, but right now what I recommend is Creative Destruction, and I'm going to give your listeners the link to the right book, it's by a group of French economists.

菲尔·特里：当然，我推荐了数百本，但现在我推荐的是《创造性破坏》，我将为你们的听众提供正确书籍的链接，这是一群法国经济学家写的。

It's a little bit academic, but it's so important.

这有点学术性，但非常重要。

It's so important for product people to understand.

对于产品人员来说，理解这一点非常重要。

It is so important.

这非常重要。

More jobs get created because of creative destruction.

由于创造性破坏，创造了更多的就业机会。

There's not net job loss.

没有净失业。

There's more jobs created.

创造了更多就业机会。

AI is going to create more jobs, not destroy.

人工智能将创造更多就业机会，而不是破坏就业机会。

Everybody got that wrong.

大家都错了。

Almost everybody, except the people who understood creative destruction.

几乎所有人，除了那些懂得创造性破坏的人。

But you have to be close to the frontier.

但你必须靠近边境。

That's where the job creation happens.

这就是创造就业机会的地方。

And product people, you got to be close to the frontier.

对于产品人员来说，你必须接近前沿。

You got to do whatever you can.

你必须尽你所能。

If you're at a company that's not close to the frontier, do stuff at...

如果你在一家不靠近前沿的公司，那就在……做事

I was working at Moody's Investor Service and I built one of the first 2,000 websites back in the early nineties, Lenny.

我当时在穆迪投资者服务公司 (Moody's Investor Service) 工作，早在 90 年代初，我就创建了首批 2,000 个网站之一，Lenny。

I was doing all this stuff outside of work.

我在工作之外做所有这些事情。

That was bringing me closer to the technical frontier and was changing my candidate market fit.

这让我更接近技术前沿，并改变了我的候选人市场契合度。

So I recommend that book.

所以我推荐那本书。

Phyl Terry: I also, of course, I recommend Marty's books.

菲尔·特里：当然，我也推荐马蒂的书。

Now, I want to just say again, I don't want you to just read Marty's books, listen to his podcast, the great interview you guys did here at Lenny's.

现在，我想再说一遍，我不希望你们只阅读马蒂的书，听他的播客，以及你们在莱尼这里所做的精彩采访。

I want you to read and reread those books as if he's your mentor.

我希望你像他是你的导师一样阅读并重读这些书。

And rereading is important, Lenny.

重读很重要，莱尼。

And people say, "Oh, I listened two or three times speed on the audiobook." You are not going to have that deeply inform your decision making.

人们会说，“哦，我听有声读物的速度是两到三倍。”你不会对你的决策产生深刻的影响。

Now what I'll do is I'll read a book and then I'll listen to it as a reinforcement, or I'll read it and listen to it at the same time.

现在我要做的就是读一本书，然后听它作为强化，或者我会一边读一边听。

For the important books, Lenny, you got to read them more.

对于重要的书，莱尼，你必须多读。

And Marty's books are important.

马蒂的书很重要。

Phyl Terry: The last book I'll recommend is The Manual.

Phyl Terry：我推荐的最后一本书是《手册》。

It's a short introduction to Stoicism.

这是对斯多葛主义的简短介绍。

People misunderstand Stoicism.

人们误解了斯多葛主义。

They think Stoicism means repressing your feelings.

他们认为斯多葛主义意味着压抑你的感情。

That is not what Stoicism means.

这不是斯多葛主义的意思。

It means understanding and accepting your feelings, but not necessarily always being driven by them.

这意味着理解并接受你的感受，但不一定总是受其驱使。

Incorporating them.

将它们纳入其中。

Your feelings are an important part of your decision-making system, but they shouldn't rule you.

你的感受是你决策系统的重要组成部分，但它们不应该统治你。

And it's a really important book.

这是一本非常重要的书。

I have driven a lot of sales with that book because I really hammer it home in my book.

我用那本书推动了很多销售，因为我真的在我的书中反复强调了这一点。

So if you go on to Amazon, you'll see the book that's most bought along with my book is that book, right?

所以如果你去亚马逊，你会发现与我的书一起购买最多的书就是那本书，对吧？

I have other books I recommend that are on my website, but those are two or three.

我的网站上还推荐了其他书籍，但只有两三本。

Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

On the listening to things at fast speed, I sometimes meet folks that listen to the podcast and they're like, "Oh, this is what you sound like at regular speed, because I just listen to every podcast fast." Second question, do you have a favorite recent movie or TV show you've really enjoyed?

在快速收听内容时，我有时会遇到听播客的人，他们会说，“哦，这就是你在正常速度下听起来的样子，因为我只是快速收听每个播客。”第二个问题，您最近有最喜欢的电影或电视节目吗？

Phyl Terry: So there's a great new TV show on Apple TV that is not getting the audience that it deserves.

Phyl Terry：Apple TV 上有一个很棒的新电视节目，但没有吸引到应有的观众。

It's called Las Azules.

它的名字叫“蔚蓝”。

Las Azules, the Blues.

拉斯阿苏尔斯，蓝调。

It's about the first women recruited onto the police force of Mexico City in 1971 or 2.

这是关于 1971 年或 2 年第一批女性被招募到墨西哥城警察部队的故事。

Of course it speaks to me because 1970s, these are women and my mom and how close I was to her and what I...

当然，这对我来说很有意义，因为 20 世纪 70 年代，这些都是女性和我的妈妈，以及我和她的亲密程度以及我......

I saw the world through my mother's eyes, Lenny, and it really shaped me.

莱尼，我通过母亲的眼睛看世界，它确实塑造了我。

It's a great TV show.

这是一部很棒的电视节目。

I love that.

我喜欢那个。

Of course, I love the show that I've always recommended and everyone's now seen it, I hope.

当然，我喜欢我一直推荐的这部剧，我希望每个人都看过它。

If they haven't, it's been out for a while, but it's...

如果他们还没有，那么它已经发布了一段时间了，但它......

Oh, the name just escaped me.

哦，我刚刚忘记了这个名字。

The American football coach who goes to England and becomes a soccer coach.

前往英国并成为一名足球教练的美国橄榄球教练。

Phyl Terry: How can I forget this?

菲尔·特里：我怎么能忘记这个呢？

I've recommended it so many times.

我已经推荐过很多次了。

Lenny Rachitsky: That's the guy's name, right?

Lenny Rachitsky：这就是那个人的名字，对吧？

The character, Ted Lasso.

角色泰德·拉索。

Phyl Terry: Ted Lasso, Ted Lasso.

菲尔·特里：特德·拉索，特德·拉索。

Thank you.

谢谢。

So the kindness in there.

所以里面充满了善意。

And by the way, a great message around asking for help in that.

顺便说一下，这是一个关于寻求帮助的好消息。

The last thing I'll say, of course, is the Inside Out movies.

当然，我要说的最后一件事是《头脑特工队》电影。

The second one came out this summer.

第二部今年夏天上映。

Just the way it's normalizing emotions, again, and helping us start to talk about emotions.

就像它再次使情绪正常化一样，并帮助我们开始谈论情绪。

Really love that.

真的很喜欢那个。

Okay, what else in the lightning round?

好吧，闪电回合还有什么？

Lenny Rachitsky: So there's this next question that I cut.

Lenny Rachitsky：所以我删掉了下一个问题。

I moved to other questions, but I wanted to bring it back with you.

我转向其他问题，但我想把它带回来给你。

It's about your favorite interview question.

这是关于你最喜欢的面试问题。

You help a lot of people interview and interview better.

你帮助很多人面试并且面试得更好。

I'm curious if there's a question that you've heard that you really like.

我很好奇您是否听说过您真正喜欢的问题。

Phyl Terry: If you are interviewee for a job and it's a senior level job, I want you to ask, "Tell me about a time that you, the company, brought in a senior level person and it failed, and why?" Because they often fail bringing senior level people into companies.

菲尔·特里：如果你是某职位的面试者，而且是高级职位，我希望你问：“告诉我一次你公司引进高级人才但失败了的经历，为什么？”因为他们常常无法将高层人员带入公司。

So ask them what happened and why, and figure out how can we avoid that outcome.

因此，询问他们发生了什么以及为什么，并找出我们如何才能避免这种结果。

And hopefully they're going to have a good answer.

希望他们能得到一个好的答案。

I have a whole bunch of questions in my book, but I love that one.

我的书中有一大堆问题，但我喜欢那个。

Phyl Terry: I also love, if you are on the other side, if you're hiring and you want to check references, I have the most amazing question.

菲尔·特里：我也喜欢，如果你在另一边，如果你正在招聘并且你想检查推荐人，我有一个最令人惊奇的问题。

The most amazing question.

最令人惊奇的问题。

By the way, this is the best thing I learned in my two years at the Harvard Business School.

顺便说一句，这是我在哈佛商学院两年里学到的最好的东西。

I learned this in my running and growing a small business class.

我在经营和发展小型商务班时学到了这一点。

It's like the best thing I've learned.

这就像我学到的最好的东西。

It is, if you want to get references, what you do is you want to leave a voicemail or you could send an email, whatever.

是的，如果你想获得推荐信，你要做的就是留下语音邮件，或者你可以发送电子邮件，等等。

And you want to say, "I'm about to hire Lenny.

你想说：“我即将雇用莱尼。

Okay, if it would be a huge mistake if I didn't bring him on, if you think he's amazing, then call me back.

好吧，如果我不让他加入那就是一个巨大的错误，如果你认为他很棒，那就给我回电话。

Otherwise, don't bother." And that gets around all the legal blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and it's just it cuts through.

不然就别麻烦了。”这绕过了所有法律上的废话，废话，废话，废话，废话，只是它贯穿其中。

I love that question.

我喜欢这个问题。

I don't know if that resonates with you as much.

我不知道这是否引起你的共鸣。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。

So is the idea if you don't hear back from them, they're not necessarily amazing?

那么，如果你没有收到他们的回复，他们不一定很棒吗？

Phyl Terry: Yeah.

菲尔·特里：是的。

You're leaving that space there.

你要把那个空间留在那里。

And by the way, I love doing that for back channel.

顺便说一句，我喜欢在后台频道中这样做。

When you start a job or when you are accepting an offer or interviewing, I want you to back channel that boss a little.

当你开始工作或接受录用或面试时，我希望你能稍微支持一下老板。

Talk to people who've worked with them, if you can.

如果可以的话，与与他们共事过的人交谈。

Use your network and ask them, "Would you work with this person?" And even say, "Hey, if I called you and told me I was interviewing with this guy and you should only call me back if you thought I should take the job, would you have called me back?" You'd know, and so you can do a form of it that way.

利用你的人际网络问他们：“你愿意和这个人一起工作吗？”甚至可以说，“嘿，如果我打电话给你，告诉我我正在面试这个人，而你只有在你认为我应该接受这份工作时才给我回电话，你会给我回电话吗？”你会知道的，所以你可以这样做。

Lenny Rachitsky: Do you have a favorite product you've recently discovered that you really love, whether it's like a digital app?

Lenny Rachitsky：您最近发现了您真正喜欢的最喜欢的产品吗？无论是数字应用程序吗？

Phyl Terry: I'm going to give you a very different kind of answer than I would normally give, but I'm hoping you and your community will appreciate this.

Phyl Terry：我将给您一个与通常情况下非常不同的答案，但我希望您和您的社区会欣赏这一点。

So I did recently discover it, but I'm going to talk about a book, Lenny.

所以我最近确实发现了它，但我要谈论一本书，莱尼。

So 25 years ago, a guy named Robert Strassler, who was a business guy, he started teaching at a special high school for kids who were dropping out.

25 年前，一个名叫罗伯特·斯特拉斯勒 (Robert Strassler) 的商人开始在一所专门为辍学的孩子开设的高中任教。

And he was teaching them some of the classics like Herodotus and Thucydides, expert, and they couldn't get it.

他正在教他们一些经典著作，比如希罗多德和修昔底德，专家，但他们听不懂。

And the books were terrible because there was no context, so he spent 10 years and he reinvented the format of a history book.

这些书很糟糕，因为没有背景，所以他花了 10 年时间，重新发明了历史书的格式。

There are 120 maps.

有120张地图。

Each of them he drew specifically, and they're only relevant to the previous one or two pages.

每一张都是他专门画的，而且只与前一两页相关。

Okay?

好的？

There's a margin summary in plain English for each paragraph describing what that paragraph just said.

每个段落都有一个简单的英文页边摘要，描述该段落刚才所说的内容。

He got the top scholars in the world to write two-page appendices on their expert topic, things they've written hundreds of books about, hundreds of pages about, you have to do it in two pages.

他让世界上的顶尖学者就他们的专家主题写了两页的附录，他们已经写了数百本书，数百页的内容，你必须在两页内完成。

Phyl Terry: And by the way, the publishing world wouldn't back it.

菲尔·特里：顺便说一句，出版界不会支持它。

He funded it himself.

他自己出资。

He hand drew the maps.

他亲手绘制了地图。

He spent two years creating a concept index, not just a keyword index.

他花了两年时间创建了概念索引，而不仅仅是关键字索引。

And it's just blown apart the whole industry.

它刚刚摧毁了整个行业。

Completely disrupted.

完全被打乱了。

He sold hundreds of thousands of copies of these books.

这些书他卖出了数十万册。

They are a masterpiece, Lenny.

他们是杰作，莱尼。

They have Landmark Series.

他们有地标系列。

Landmark.

地标。

They have new ones coming out.

他们有新的出来了。

Every product person, in my opinion, should go look at this and look at the product design of this book.

我认为每个产品人都应该去看一下这个，看看这本书的产品设计。

It is masterful and it teaches you a lot about usability and the reader experience.

它非常出色，并且教会您很多有关可用性和读者体验的知识。

I want product people, Lenny, to get out, who are doing digital work to get out of the digital world and look at products outside the digital world for inspiration and thinking, because I don't want you all looking at the same stuff.

我希望产品人员，莱尼，离开，他们正在做数字工作，以走出数字世界，并在数字世界之外的产品中寻找灵感和思考，因为我不希望你们都看同样的东西。

You're going to just create the same stuff.

你将只创建相同的东西。

I love tools like Calendly, which I just didn't...

我喜欢 Calendly 这样的工具，但我只是不喜欢...

I've been using for years, but no one could get it right until they got it right.

我已经使用了很多年，但在他们做对之前没有人能做对。

Those are great.

那些都很棒。

How's that for an answer?

怎样才算有答案呢？

Lenny Rachitsky: That's incredible.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：这太不可思议了。

So what is it called again and where do you find it?

那么它又叫什么名字，在哪里可以找到它呢？

Phyl Terry: And it's going to be on the Lenny page.

Phyl Terry：它将出现在 Lenny 页面上。

If you get on , if you do Landmark Herodotus or Landmark Thucydides, either one, you'll get there.

如果你继续，如果你读《地标希罗多德》或《地标修昔底德》，无论其中之一，你都会到达那里。

Yeah.

是的。

Lenny Rachitsky: Oh my God.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：天啊。

Sounds incredible.

听起来不可思议。

Great choice.

很棒的选择。

Do you have a favorite life motto that you often like to think back to and share with friends or family?

您是否有一条最喜欢的人生格言，经常回想并与朋友或家人分享？

Phyl Terry: Of course, we talked about asking for help, and I say that a lot.

菲尔·特里：当然，我们谈到了寻求帮助，我说了很多次。

But I also love, and I said this earlier, books are machines to think with.

但我也喜欢，我之前说过，书籍是思考的机器。

And as product people, Marty and I talk about this all the time, we have to be thinking.

作为产品人员，马蒂和我一直在谈论这个，我们必须思考。

And I coach people all the time, how can I think more?

而且我一直在辅导别人，我怎么能想得更多呢？

You've got to read more because books are machines to think with.

你必须多读书，因为书籍是思考的机器。

Good books.

好书。

There's a lot of bad books in the business world, but good books.

商业世界里有很多坏书，但也有好书。

Good books, thoughtful books.

好书，有思想的书。

Books that'll help and shift your perspective, whether it's history or science.

无论是历史还是科学，这些书籍都会帮助并改变您的观点。

I read widely, and I want you to do the same.

我广泛阅读，我希望你也这样做。

Books are machines to think with.

书籍是思考的机器。

That's probably one of my greatest lines.

这可能是我最伟大的台词之一。

Lenny Rachitsky: Final question.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：最后一个问题。

Usually I try to make this fun, but I want it to come back to something practical for people.

通常我会努力让这件事变得有趣，但我希望它能回归到对人们来说实用的东西。

So to leave people with something they could do this week to help them find a job or help them improve the chances of finding their job, what's something you'd recommend?

那么，为了让人们本周可以做一些事情来帮助他们找到工作或帮助他们提高找到工作的机会，你会推荐什么？

Phyl Terry: I have one very simple thing.

Phyl Terry：我有一件非常简单的事情。

Go to Phyl.org and sign up for a Job Search Council.

访问 Phyl.org 并注册加入求职委员会。

Phyl Terry: It's free and it will transform your search.

Phyl Terry：它是免费的，它将改变您的搜索。

Is it a good answer, or were you looking for something different, Lenny?

这是一个很好的答案，还是你在寻找不同的东西，莱尼？

Lenny Rachitsky: Beautiful answer.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：漂亮的答案。

It also is exactly what I would've asked you next, which is just where do people go find the stuff you're up to and learn more about things that we've been talking about?

这也正是我接下来要问你的问题，那就是人们在哪里可以找到你正在做的事情并了解更多关于我们一直在谈论的事情？

Lenny Rachitsky: There's phyl.org and then there's phyl.org/lenny, which has a lot of the templates and things that you referenced.

Lenny Rachitsky：有 phyl.org，还有 phyl.org/lenny，其中有很多您引用的模板和内容。

Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

Final actual question, how can listeners be useful to you?

最后一个实际问题是，听众如何对你有用？

Phyl Terry: That's such a lovely question.

菲尔·特里：这是一个非常可爱的问题。

So on the Lenny page at Phyl.org, I outline some ways.

因此，在 Phyl.org 的 Lenny 页面上，我概述了一些方法。

We're raising $100,000 right now to build a platform for job seekers.

我们现在正在筹集 10 万美元，为求职者建立一个平台。

It will remain free for job seekers.

它将对求职者免费。

Part of what I'm doing is I'm doing a speaking tour on AI, and I'm taking all my speaking fees and putting it to this, but people can also make a donation just to that.

我正在做的一部分事情是我正在做一场关于人工智能的巡回演讲，我把所有的演讲费用都投入其中，但人们也可以为此捐款。

They can also volunteer.

他们也可以做志愿者。

And we're looking for, if anyone's a Salesforce admin, I'd love to have you volunteer with us.

我们正在寻找，如果有人是 Salesforce 管理员，我很乐意让您成为我们的志愿者。

If any of you have really good PHP experience, let me know.

如果你们中有人有非常好的 PHP 经验，请告诉我。

If any of you are really good at Typeform or Formsite, which is a tool I don't like much.

如果你们中有人真的很擅长 Typeform 或 Formsite，这是我不太喜欢的工具。

By the way, if anyone from Formsite is listening, your tool sucks.

顺便说一句，如果 Formsite 的任何人都在听，那么你的工具就很糟糕。

You need to really improve the product there.

你需要真正改进那里的产品。

There's a lot of different ways that you can help, but those are some of the things.

您可以通过多种不同的方式提供帮助，但这些只是其中的一些。

Phyl Terry: But most importantly, tell someone who you know in your life who's looking for a job, that there's a community here for you that's free, that has all these smart tools and resources and people who are genuinely here to help you and who will help transform your search in this very hard moment.

菲尔·特里：但最重要的是，告诉你生活中认识的正在找工作的人，这里有一个免费的社区，拥有所有这些智能工具和资源，以及真正在这里帮助你的人，他们将在这个非常困难的时刻帮助改变你的搜索。

People ask me, "Is this good in the hard moment?" This is born out of hard moments.

人们问我：“在困难时刻这样做好吗？”这是在艰难时刻诞生的。

Phyl Terry: In a great job market, it's easier to say, "Oh, I can just grab a job." You need to be more thoughtful in the down market.

菲尔·特里：在一个良好的就业市场中，更容易说：“哦，我可以找到一份工作。”在低迷的市场中你需要更加深思熟虑。

Now, I think you should be in the up market too.

现在，我认为你也应该进入高端市场。

This is our moment to be there for people.

这是我们为人们服务的时刻。

This is what.

这是什么。

And I would love, so many people still don't know this, Lenny, we want millions of people.

我很高兴，这么多人仍然不知道这一点，莱尼，我们需要数百万人。

We want to help millions of people.

我们想帮助数百万人。

We have 20,000 hours of volunteer time already.

我们已经有 20,000 小时的志愿者时间。

We want to have millions of hours of volunteer time.

我们希望有数百万小时的志愿者时间。

We are changing something about the way capitalism works with this community.

我们正在改变资本主义与这个社区的合作方式。

We are changing this negative consequence of creative destruction that people have just been left to fend with on their own.

我们正在改变人们只能独自应对创造性破坏的这种负面后果。

Lenny Rachitsky: Well, I'm excited to be helping spread the word.

Lenny Rachitsky：嗯，我很高兴能够帮助传播这个信息。

Phyl, you're wonderful.

菲尔，你太棒了。

Thank you so much for being here.

非常感谢您来到这里。

Lenny Rachitsky: Thank you so much for listening.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：非常感谢您的聆听。

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如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review, as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.

您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。