How to be the best coach to product people | Petra Wille (Strong Product People)

Petra Wille: Getting promoted is way harder if you're not good in telling stories and rallying the team behind the shared goal and all these kind of things, and you usually achieve this through good storytelling techniques.

Petra Wille：如果你不擅长讲故事，不善于团结团队实现共同目标，那么晋升就会更难，而你通常可以通过良好的讲故事技巧来实现这一目标。

And in some teams, I've seen the product person not being really, really good at it, but then the whole team helped creating these stories and stuff like this.

在一些团队中，我看到产品人员并不是非常非常擅长，但随后整个团队都帮助创建了这些故事和类似的东西。

So you definitely could compensate to some extent, but I would consider it a bit of a career staller if you don't get to a decent level of storytelling and to a decent level of public speaking.

所以你肯定可以在某种程度上进行补偿，但如果你没有达到像样的讲故事水平和像样的公开演讲水平，我会认为这有点阻碍你的职业生涯。

Lenny: Welcome to Lenny's Podcast.

莱尼：欢迎来到莱尼的播客。

I'm Lenny, and my aim here is to help you get better at the craft of building and growing products.

我是莱尼，我的目标是帮助您更好地构建和种植产品。

Today, my guest is Petra Wille.

今天，我的客人是佩特拉·威尔。

Petra is an independent product leadership coach and author of Strong Product People.

Petra 是一位独立的产品领导力教练，也是《Strong Product People》一书的作者。

And for the past 10 years, she's been helping product teams boost their skill sets and up their game.

在过去的 10 年里，她一直在帮助产品团队提高技能和水平。

Alongside her freelance work, Petra organizes events in Hamburg, Germany, where she's based, and does a ton of one-on-one coaching, and speaking, and writing.

除了她的自由职业之外，佩特拉还在她的所在地德国汉堡组织活动，并进行大量的一对一辅导、演讲和写作。

Lenny: In our conversation, we focus on three things.

莱尼：在我们的谈话中，我们关注三件事。

One, how to become the best coach for PMs, which is really important if you're a new PM manager, and even if you're not a new manager.

第一，如何成为 PM 的最佳教练，如果你是新的 PM 经理，即使你不是新经理，这一点也非常重要。

Two, how to become a better storyteller and why that's important for leaders at every stage of their career.

第二，如何成为一个更好的讲故事的人，以及为什么这对于领导者职业生涯的每个阶段都很重要。

And three, why finding a PM community is so valuable and how to go about finding one.

第三，为什么寻找 PM 社区如此有价值以及如何寻找一个社区。

Petra is awesome, and it was such a fun chat.

佩特拉很棒，聊天非常有趣。

And so with that, I bring you Petra Wille.

因此，我为您带来了 Petra Wille。

Lenny: Hey, Ashley, Head of Marketing at Flatfile.

Lenny：嘿，Ashley，Flatfile 的营销主管。

How many B2B SaaS companies would you estimate need to import CSV files from their customers?

您估计有多少家 B2B SaaS 公司需要从其客户导入 CSV 文件？

Lenny: And how many of them screw that up, and what happens when they do?

莱尼：有多少人把事情搞砸了，当他们这样做时会发生什么？

Ashley: Well, based on our data, about a third of people will consider switching to another company after just one bad experience during onboarding.

阿什利：嗯，根据我们的数据，大约三分之一的人在入职期间经历过一次糟糕的经历后就会考虑跳槽到另一家公司。

So if your CSV importer doesn't work right, which is super common, considering customer files are chock-full of unexpected data and formatting, they'll leave.

因此，如果您的 CSV 导入器无法正常工作（这种情况非常常见），考虑到客户文件中充满了意外的数据和格式，他们就会离开。

Lenny: I am 0% surprised to hear that.

Lenny：听到这个消息我感到 0% 惊讶。

I've consistently seen that improving onboarding is one of the highest leverage opportunities for both signup conversion and increasing long-term retention.

我一直认为，改善入职是注册转化和提高长期保留的最高杠杆机会之一。

Getting people to your aha moment more quickly and reliably is so incredibly important.

让人们更快、更可靠地进入顿悟时刻非常重要。

Ashley: Totally.

阿什利：完全可以。

It's incredible to see how our customers like Square, Spotify, and Zuora are able to grow their businesses on top of Flatfile.

看到 Square、Spotify 和 Zuora 等客户如何能够在 Flatfile 上发展业务，真是令人难以置信。

That's because flawless data onboarding acts like a catalyst to get them and their customers where they need to go faster.

这是因为完美的数据导入就像催化剂一样，让他们及其客户更快地到达需要的地方。

Lenny: If you'd like to learn more or get started, check out Flatfile at flatfile.com/lenny.

Lenny：如果您想了解更多信息或开始使用，请访问 flatfile.com/lenny 查看 Flatfile。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Mixpanel, offering powerful self-serve product analytics.

Lenny：本集由 Mixpanel 为您带来，提供强大的自助产品分析。

If you listen to this podcast, you know that it's really hard to build great product without making compromises.

如果您收听此播客，您就会知道在不做出妥协的情况下构建出色的产品确实很难。

And when it comes to using data, a lot of teams think that they only have two choices, make quick decisions based on gut feelings or make data-driven decisions at a snail's pace, but that's a false choice.

当谈到使用数据时，许多团队认为他们只有两种选择，根据直觉做出快速决策，或者以蜗牛般的速度做出数据驱动的决策，但这是一个错误的选择。

You shouldn't have to compromise on speed to get product answers that you can trust.

您无需牺牲速度即可获得值得信赖的产品答案。

With Mixpanel, there are no tradeoffs.

使用 Mixpanel，无需权衡。

Get deep insights at the speed of thought at a fair price that scales as you grow.

以合理的价格以思考的速度获得深入的见解，并随着您的成长而扩展。

Mixpanel builds powerful and intuitive product analytics that everyone can trust, use, and afford.

Mixpanel 构建了强大而直观的产品分析，每个人都可以信任、使用和负担得起。

Explore plans for teams of every size and see what Mixpanel can do for you at mixpanel.com.

访问 mixpanel.com，探索适合各种规模团队的计划，并了解 Mixpanel 可以为您做什么。

And while you're at it, they're hiring.

当你在做的时候，他们正在招聘。

Check out mixpanel.com to learn more.

请访问 mixpanel.com 了解更多信息。

Lenny: Petra, thank you for being here.

莱尼：佩特拉，谢谢你来到这里。

Welcome to our little podcast.

欢迎来到我们的小播客。

Petra Wille: Hi, Lenny.

佩特拉·威尔：嗨，莱尼。

Such an honor to be here on a Friday night.

周五晚上来到这里真是太荣幸了。

Lenny: Friday night your time, Friday morning my time.

莱尼：周五晚上是你的时间，周五早上是我的时间。

Thank you for making the time.

感谢您抽出时间。

Lenny: You're a product leadership coach.

莱尼：你是一名产品领导力教练。

Can you just talk about what you do as a product leadership coach and then also just a bit about the numbers of PMs you work with, the number of companies you work with, the impact you had, just to set a little bit of context in your background?

您能否简单谈谈您作为产品领导力教练所做的工作，然后谈谈与您合作的产品经理数量、与您合作的公司数量、您所产生的影响，只是为了在您的背景中提供一些背景信息？

Petra Wille: How I usually describe it is that I work with people leading product people, so that's the product leadership level that I'm looking at.

Petra Wille：我通常的描述是，我与领导产品人员一起工作，所以这就是我所关注的产品领导级别。

So that might be a CPO in a smaller startup or a product director, a product team lead, these are the folks that I'm usually working with for the last four years, I'd say.

因此，这可能是一家小型初创公司的首席产品官，也可能是产品总监、产品团队负责人，我想说，这些人是我在过去四年里经常一起工作的人。

And before that, I coached product managers, so IC level product folks.

在此之前，我指导过产品经理，也就是 IC 级别的产品人员。

And before that, I did a lot of product discovery coaching for teams and whole product organizations.

在此之前，我为团队和整个产品组织进行了大量的产品发现辅导。

And you asked about how many people I may have influenced.

你问我可能影响了多少人。

That's a real hard question so to say.

可以说，这是一个非常困难的问题。

So in one-on-one coachings, that's what I know.

所以在一对一辅导中，这就是我所知道的。

I coached around 130 people so far over the last few years, which is already a lot.

过去几年到目前为止，我指导过大约 130 人，这已经很多了。

Most of them have, yeah, 10 to 20 sessions with me.

是的，他们中的大多数人跟我进行了 10 到 20 次会谈。

Some really stick with me over the years so they have more sessions.

有些人多年来一直跟随我，所以他们有更多的课程。

Petra Wille: So that's that.

佩特拉·威尔：就是这样。

And then I have group coaching sessions and corporate and then public setups.

然后我会进行团体辅导课程以及企业和公共设置。

And that's, I would say, another 150.

我想说，那就是另外 150 个。

And it's all product leads.

这都是产品线索。

So usually, those people are working with a team of 10 product people and there are some ripple effects.

通常，这些人与 10 名产品人员组成的团队一起工作，并且会产生一些连锁反应。

So I think I have an impact on their lives as well if I'm coaching their boss or the line manager so to say.

因此，我认为如果我指导他们的老板或直线经理，我也会对他们的生活产生影响。

Plus, the teams that I work with as a discovery coach, plus the people that read my book and hopefully are using some of the techniques.

另外，还有与我一起担任发现教练的团队，以及读过我的书并希望正在使用其中一些技术的人。

And in the end, yeah, I did a bit of the math and I think it might be around 50,000, 60,000 people.

最后，是的，我做了一些数学计算，我认为可能有 50,000、60,000 人左右。

If we look at it from the product leadership to IC level structure, yeah, that might be the impact.

如果我们从产品领先地位到IC级别结构来看，是的，这可能就是影响。

So that's a pretty impressive number.

所以这是一个相当令人印象深刻的数字。

Lenny: Wow.

莱尼：哇。

That is an impressive number.

这是一个令人印象深刻的数字。

And I always love chatting with folks that do the work you do because there's such a unique insight into working one on one with PMs that are trying to get better and understanding what trends are happening across PMs at different companies and different countries and things like that.

我总是喜欢与从事你所做工作的人聊天，因为与那些试图变得更好的产品经理一对一合作并了解不同公司和不同国家的产品经理正在发生的趋势以及类似的事情有如此独特的见解。

So I'm excited to dig into a bunch of stuff.

所以我很高兴能深入研究一堆东西。

Lenny: The other thing that I love about where you're focused, there's a lot of people that focus on ICEPMs and there's a lot of people that focus on senior leaders, VPs, CPOs.

Lenny：我喜欢你们关注的另一件事是，有很多人关注 ICEPM，也有很多人关注高级领导、副总裁、首席采购官。

And I love that it feels ...

我喜欢这种感觉...

And correct me if I'm wrong, but you are focused on this middle layer of first line managers, directors.

如果我错了，请纠正我，但你关注的是一线经理、董事的中间层。

Lenny: Which I feel like is often the most important and influential layer of a company because they're the ones doing a lot of the work at making a lot of the decisions day to day.

莱尼：我觉得这通常是公司中最重要和最有影响力的一层，因为他们每天做大量的工作，做出很多决策。

Petra Wille: That is the case.

佩特拉·威尔：是这样的。

Plus, at least with a lot of clients that I'm working with, they are not trained product people.

另外，至少对于与我合作的许多客户来说，他们不是经过培训的产品人员。

So they often come from a marketing background, or a business background, or from the data background, so to say, or the engineering background, but they often never have worked in a product management role.

因此，他们通常来自营销背景、商业背景、数据背景，或者工程背景，但他们通常从未担任过产品管理角色。

So they're missing a lot of basic product management practice and a lot of empathy for the struggle of the product people to some extent.

因此，他们在某种程度上缺少很多基本的产品管理实践，也缺少对产品人员奋斗的很多同理心。

Plus, how should you help people grow if you have no clue what their role actually is all about?

另外，如果你不知道人们的角色到底是什么，你应该如何帮助他们成长？

So that's what I actually like to help them with, to get this clarity on a strong compass how the best product organizations and product managers should be working.

所以这就是我真正想帮助他们的，让他们清楚地了解最好的产品组织和产品经理应该如何工作。

Lenny: Just to go a little bit on that tangent because that's an interesting point you just raised.

莱尼：只是稍微切题一下，因为这是你刚才提出的一个有趣的观点。

When you work with folks that are not product people and that end up leading product people and trying to better product, what's the thing they lack most, the skill or the understanding of product?

当你与不是产品人员但最终领导产品人员并试图改进产品的人一起工作时，他们最缺乏的东西是什么，即对产品的技能或理解？

If you had to think of one or two things that these people are like, "Okay, they totally missed this part about product management, about building product."

如果你必须想到这些人的一两件事，“好吧，他们完全错过了关于产品管理、关于构建产品的这一部分。”

Petra Wille: One thing that has made me sense out the most is I see product people on the IC level have to go through some of the struggles on their own, even if our product community has some best practices to it.

Petra Wille：最让我感触的一件事是，我看到 IC 层面的产品人员必须自己经历一些挣扎，即使我们的产品社区有一些最佳实践。

Because as the line manager has no clue about the product community out there and the craftless product management, they often struggle to point them in the right direction to say, "Hey, I think that's a problem somebody else already had.

因为由于直线经理对那里的产品社区和不熟练的产品管理一无所知，所以他们经常很难为他们指出正确的方向，说：“嘿，我认为这是其他人已经遇到的问题。

So maybe you could watch a talk or read this blog post or there's a book about this particular thing and then go try it." So that's the first thing.

所以也许你可以观看演讲或阅读这篇博文，或者有一本关于这个特定事物的书，然后去尝试一下。”这是第一件事。

So product people IC level often have done to learn a lot of things on their own, so to say, because nobody's curating their progression for them to some extent.

因此，IC 级别的产品人员通常需要自学很多东西，可以这么说，因为没有人在某种程度上为他们策划他们的进步。

So that is one thing.

所以这是一回事。

Petra Wille: And then I use this metaphor of the eight-legged creature because people tend to talk about T-shaped employee profiles, but T-shaped is so not enough for a product person, right?

Petra Wille：然后我用八足生物这个比喻，因为人们倾向于谈论 T 形员工档案，但 T 形对于产品人员来说还不够，对吧？

We want them to understand underlying problems of the business and the users finding solution for those, getting things out of the door with the team, doing a lot of product discovery, looking at the data, how people are using it, iterating on the products.

我们希望他们了解业务的根本问题以及用户如何找到解决方案，与团队一起解决问题，进行大量产品发现，查看数据，人们如何使用数据，迭代产品。

So there's so many things that we want them to be good at and to understand that and the complexity that the role actually brings with it.

因此，我们希望他们擅长很多事情，并理解这些事情以及该角色实际带来的复杂性。

That's sometimes hard for people that have never worked as a product person to really understand.

对于从未担任过产品人员的人来说，有时很难真正理解这一点。

So, yeah, if I would need to pick two things, then that's maybe the two biggest differences.

所以，是的，如果我需要选择两件事，那么这可能是两个最大的区别。

Lenny: The first one is such a great one.

莱尼：第一个非常棒。

It comes up a lot on these chats of just how much of getting better product is just doing it.

在这些聊天中，很多人都提到，要获得更好的产品，有多少只是付诸实践。

You can read all the books, you can take all the courses, you can read my newsletter, you can read your book, which we'll talk about, but there's only so far you'll get without actually just doing it and just failing, doing great things that succeed.

你可以阅读所有的书，你可以参加所有的课程，你可以阅读我的时事通讯，你可以阅读你的书，我们将讨论这些，但如果你不实际去做，只是失败，做成功的伟大事情，你所能得到的就只有这么多。

And it takes years, right?

这需要数年时间，对吗？

It's not like something you'll do six months, "All right, I'm feeling really good about being a product manager."

这不像是你要做六个月的事情，“好吧，我对成为一名产品经理感觉非常好。”

Petra Wille: Yeah, I totally agree.

Petra Wille：是的，我完全同意。

I so often have said the sentence of, it's not a role, it's a career being in product and, really, there's so many things to learn and so many things to get good at.

我经常说过这样一句话，产品不是一个角色，而是一份职业，真的，有很多东西需要学习，有很多东西需要擅长。

Yeah, I totally agree.

是的，我完全同意。

Lenny: Yeah, crazy ass role.

莱尼：是的，疯狂的角色。

Speaking of your book, you wrote a book, it's about product leadership and coaching, and we're going to touch on some of the things you wrote in the book, but can you just briefly describe the book that you wrote, who it's for, what it's about?

说到你的书，你写了一本书，是关于产品领导力和辅导的，我们将讨论你在书中写的一些内容，但你能简单描述一下你写的书，它是为谁写的，它是关于什么的吗？

Petra Wille: It's quite a niche book, right?

Petra Wille：这是一本相当小众的书，对吧？

So it's focusing on people managing product people, so product leads and then the people development part of their job.

因此，它的重点是人员管理产品人员，产品领导，然后人员发展是他们工作的一部分。

So it's not another book talking about how to come up with a great product strategy.

因此，这不是另一本谈论如何制定出色的产品策略的书。

There definitely is a chapter on that to some extent, but it's more how you coach those things.

在某种程度上肯定有一章是关于这个的，但更多的是你如何指导这些事情。

So it's not so much about how you do these things on your own, it's more how you could help product people to understand hypothesis-driven product discovery a bit more, or how could you help them think about team motivation, or how could you help them get better and giving feedback, all these kind of things.

因此，重要的不是你自己如何做这些事情，而是你如何帮助产品人员更多地理解假设驱动的产品发现，或者你如何帮助他们思考团队动力，或者你如何帮助他们变得更好并提供反馈，所有这些事情。

Petra Wille: So this book has this meta level of helping product leads to develop their product folks.

Petra Wille：所以这本书有帮助产品领导发展他们的产品人员的元级别。

And that is actually what the book talks about in five different parts.

这实际上就是本书在五个不同部分中讨论的内容。

And I think 28 chapters if I get it right.

如果我没猜错的话，我想有28章。

Lenny: Wow, it's a lot of chapters.

莱尼：哇，有很多章。

What is it called?

它叫什么？

Where can people find it?

人们在哪里可以找到它？

Just while we're on this topic and then we'll get into some of this.

就在我们谈论这个话题的时候，我们将讨论其中的一些内容。

Petra Wille: It should be available on Amazon and it's Strong Product People: A Complete Guide to Developing Great Product Managers.

Petra Wille：它应该可以在亚马逊上找到，并且它是《强大的产品人员：培养优秀产品经理的完整指南》。

That's actually the title and the subtitle, so to say.

可以这么说，这实际上是标题和副标题。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

Strong Product People.

强大的产品人员。

Okay.

好的。

I read parts of the book, I looked at a lot of the stuff that you write online and some of your videos, and there's three things that I want to spend our time together on to dig into.

我读了这本书的部分内容，看了你在网上写的很多东西和一些视频，我想花我们的时间一起深入研究三件事。

One is what you just talked about, how to become a better coach to product managers for PMs.

一是你刚才谈到的，如何成为PM产品经理更好的教练。

Two is storytelling skills.

二是讲故事的能力。

You have a lot of great stuff on just becoming a better storyteller.

关于成为一个更好的讲故事者，你有很多很棒的东西。

And then three is how to find great community to become a better PM.

第三是如何找到优秀的社区来成为更好的产品经理。

Does that sound good?

听起来不错吗？

Petra Wille: Yeah, that sounds amazing.

Petra Wille：是的，这听起来很棒。

That stood up.

那站起来了。

Lenny: Okay, great.

莱尼：好的，太好了。

Awesome.

惊人的。

So the first topic, basically, the premise of your book is just how to become a better coach to product managers.

所以第一个主题，基本上，你这本书的前提就是如何成为产品经理更好的教练。

And for me, actually personally, the biggest inflection in my career was having an awesome manager who helped me become a better PM, and that was the point in my career where I really accelerated.

对我来说，实际上就我个人而言，我职业生涯中最大的转折是拥有一位出色的经理，他帮助我成为一名更好的产品经理，而那是我职业生涯中真正加速的时刻。

And so I fully buy into the power of having a great manager and a coach, and oftentimes those aren't the same people.

因此，我完全相信拥有一位出色的经理和教练的力量，但通常他们不是同一个人。

And you have these five ingredients that you have to be the best coach to product managers.

具备这五个要素，你就必须成为产品经理的最佳教练。

Lenny: And so just to start, what are these five ingredients?

莱尼：首先，这五种成分是什么？

What do you have to get right to be a great coach to PMs?

要成为一名优秀的产品经理教练，你必须具备什么素质？

Petra Wille: Yeah, I'm glad you're asking.

Petra Wille：是的，我很高兴你问这个问题。

So I was already referencing to number one.

所以我已经提到了第一点。

And number one is really having a solid definition of what a good product person looks like in your context.

第一个是对你的环境中的优秀产品人员的形象有一个可靠的定义。

So what is your definition of good, so to say?

那么你对“好”的定义是什么？

And a lot of the product leads that I'm working with have this as an implicit feeling based, experience-based thing.

我正在合作的许多产品主管都将其视为一种基于隐含感觉、基于体验的东西。

They can talk about some of the aspects, but it's often the case that they not have fully reflected on what a personality traits that I want to see in product people that are hard to develop while I'm coaching them, and what are skills, and know-how, and capabilities that I want to see in the product people that I'm working with.

他们可以谈论一些方面，但通常情况下，他们没有充分反映我希望在产品人员中看到哪些在我指导他们时很难培养的人格特质，以及我希望在与我一起工作的产品人员中看到哪些技能、知识和能力。

And some are super good and have it all written down, but most of the product folks that I'm working with haven't.

有些人非常好，并且将其全部写下来，但与我合作的大多数产品人员都没有。

So that is step number one is doing this reflection.

所以第一步就是进行反思。

Petra Wille: Then step number two is having a clear idea where every PM currently is in their current career, in their situation, life in general, all these kind of things.

Petra Wille：第二步是清楚地了解每位产品经理当前的职业生涯、处境、生活以及所有这些事情。

So put the pin on the map, so to say, and then think about what is your vision for them in the future, so how good could it get?

所以可以这么说，把图钉放​​在地图上，然后想想你对他们未来的愿景是什么，那么它能达到多好呢？

And I usually encourage product leads to think bigger than their current role at the current company because that's the longer term thing.

我通常鼓励产品负责人思考比他们在当前公司当前角色更大的问题，因为这是更长远的事情。

And then even more important is what I call the next bigger challenge.

更重要的是我所说的下一个更大的挑战。

Petra Wille: So what is the next bigger challenge I would love to assign this product person to if I could because I know that would help them to learn a new skill or to, yeah, again, you know how, whatever it is, right?

Petra Wille：那么，如果可以的话，我希望将这个产品人员分配给下一个更大的挑战是什么，因为我知道这将帮助他们学习新技能，或者，是的，再说一次，你知道如何，无论是什么，对吗？

And creating such a list once a quarter, for example, you block yourself an hour in your calendar, you write down the names of your direct reports, and then you just think about, "Okay, what would be this next bigger challenge for them?"

例如，每季度创建一次这样的列表，您在日历中留出一个小时，写下直接下属的姓名，然后您就想，“好吧，对他们来说下一个更大的挑战是什么？”

Petra Wille: It's not always the case that this comes around the corner the next day.

Petra Wille：情况并不总是第二天就会发生。

Sometimes it takes a quarter or two or three, but if you wrote it down, you will see this opportunity and then you could assign this person to the opportunity and really help them grow substantially over time.

有时需要一个季度或两个或三个季度，但如果你把它写下来，你会看到这个机会，然后你可以将此人分配给这个机会，并随着时间的推移真正帮助他们大幅成长。

So that's number two.

所以这是第二个。

Then, hopefully, you share this vision you're having for them with them and do a bit of an alignment session because it's not always that they have the same things in mind.

然后，希望你能与他们分享你对他们的愿景，并进行一些协调会议，因为他们的想法并不总是相同。

Maybe your vision for them opens up their thinking and reflection a little bit more, but you have to have this conversation where you actually see them, and that's a lot of encouragement and bringing out the best in them and these kind of things.

也许你对他们的愿景会更多地打开他们的思考和反思，但你必须在你真正看到他们的地方进行这种对话，这会给予他们很大的鼓励，并让他们发挥出最好的一面和诸如此类的事情。

Then it's definitely a development plan, but I think that's more on them than it is on you because you don't get the apps from other people's branches.

那么这绝对是一个开发计划，但我认为这对他们来说比对你来说更重要，因为你没有从其他人的分支机构获得应用程序。

Petra Wille: So you cannot really help them develop, but you could remind them of going to the gym, for example, which would be step number five, by the way, that's the follow-up.

Petra Wille：所以你不能真正帮助他们发展，但你可以提醒他们去健身房，例如，这是第五步，顺便说一句，这是后续步骤。

But the development plan is something where a lot of product managers need help with because that's the inspirational part, that's situational part.

但开发计划是很多产品经理需要帮助的地方，因为这是鼓舞人心的部分，这是情境部分。

That's where you could help them to really see some of the differences between your definition of good and their current profile, and maybe they need to get better in prioritization, maybe user interviewing is something they want to get better at.

这就是你可以帮助他们真正看到你对优秀的定义和他们当前的形象之间的一些差异的地方，也许他们需要在优先级上做得更好，也许用户访谈是他们想要做得更好的事情。

And then you could help them defining steps that they could take small things that they could learn.

然后你可以帮助他们定义一些步骤，让他们采取一些可以学习的小事情。

Maybe it's a book, maybe it's giving a presentation at a conference, maybe it's reflecting on your way of prioritizing, and then look at what others are doing.

也许是一本书，也许是在会议上做演讲，也许是反思你确定优先顺序的方式，然后看看其他人在做什么。

So whatever it is, that is something you could help them with.

所以无论是什么，你都可以帮助他们。

Petra Wille: And then finally, it's the follow-up.

Petra Wille：最后，这是后续行动。

That's sometimes just a nudge every once in a while at the water cooler to say, "Hey, how is it going with your personal development plan?" And some really need the weekly reminder and some maybe need even a daily email, whatever it is, ask them how they want to be reminded of the personal development and how you could help them and the system while doing that because they still have a day job, right?

有时，这只是偶尔在饮水机旁轻轻一推，说：“嘿，你的个人发展计划进展如何了？”有些人确实需要每周提醒，有些人甚至可能需要每天一封电子邮件，无论是什么，询问他们希望如何提醒他们个人发展，以及在这样做的同时你如何帮助他们和系统，因为他们仍然有日常工作，对吗？

So the development will never be the number one priority, and it shouldn't.

所以发展永远不会是第一要务，也不应该是第一要务。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

So just to summarize really quick, I have the list here in front of me.

因此，为了快速总结一下，我面前有一份清单。

One is have a clear sense of just what it takes to be a competent PM in your role.

一是清楚地了解如何才能成为一名胜任自己职责的产品经理。

Two is an idea of where that PM is today and one thing they could do to improve.

二是了解 PM 目前的状况以及他们可以改进的一件事。

Three is a shared vision of how they'll take that next step.

三是他们对下一步如何采取的共同愿景。

Four is having a development plan of how they can move towards this vision.

四是制定如何实现这一愿景的发展计划。

And then the last piece is a commitment, just following up with them and making sure they're staying on top of this.

最后一部分是承诺，就是跟进他们并确保他们能够掌控这一切。

Lenny: What's interesting about this, just looking at this, it feels a lot like a roadmap and a strategy and a vision for a product.

Lenny：这有什么有趣的地方，光是看这个，就感觉很像产品的路线图、策略和愿景。

The definition where you're today is the problem, idea of where you're going to go next is like a strategy, and then there's a vision of where you're going to go together and then you check in.

你今天所处的位置就是问题的定义，你下一步要去哪里的想法就像一个策略，然后是你要一起去哪里的愿景，然后你就可以进行检查。

So it's these standups.

这就是这些站立会议。

Do you think of it that way at all or is that just something I'm noticing?

你是这么认为的还是这只是我注意到的？

Petra Wille: I think about it that way as well, even to an extent because so many companies are lacking the real strategy bit, right, and it's similar with the people development strategy.

Petra Wille：我也是这么想的，甚至在某种程度上是因为很多公司缺乏真正的战略，对吧，这与人员发展战略类似。

That is something that I see not being present in so many environments as well.

我认为在很多环境中也不存在这种情况。

So even that similarity is a given, I'd say.

所以我想说，即使这种相似性也是给定的。

Yeah.

是的。

Lenny: Which of these do you find is the most lacking usually or slash where do you think the biggest ...

莱尼：你认为其中哪一个是最缺乏的，或者你认为最缺乏的地方是......

If someone were to just like, "I want to be a better manager," where would you suggest they start?

如果有人只是说“我想成为一名更好的经理”，您会建议他们从哪里开始？

Is it right at the top, figure out what a great PM at this company is?I'mq

是不是就在最上面，弄清楚这家公司的优秀PM是什么？我mq

Petra Wille: That is a great question.

Petra Wille：这是一个很好的问题。

No, I usually advise people to start with the development plan because even if you have never done the assessment and even if you don't have your compass, your definition of what makes a good product manager, you usually have an idea or they have an idea of what they want to learn next or where they want to get better at.

不，我通常建议人们从发展计划开始，因为即使你从未做过评估，即使你没有指南针，没有你对如何成为一名优秀产品经理的定义，你通常有一个想法，或者他们知道他们下一步想要学习什么或者他们想要在哪里变得更好。

So I said they say something like my storytelling capabilities are maybe not as good as they could be or prioritization is people are constantly complaining behind my back that they don't get the order of the things in my backlog or whatever it is, or they think my opportunity solution freeze, and suck, or whatever it is.

所以我说他们说我的讲故事能力可能不如他们应有的那么好，或者优先顺序是人们不断在我背后抱怨他们没有得到我待办事项中的事情的顺序或其他什么，或者他们认为我的机会解决方案冻结了，很糟糕，或者其他什么。

Petra Wille: And you could use that and start helping them creating this development plan.

Petra Wille：您可以利用它并开始帮助他们制定这个发展计划。

That's not a structured assessment, but that's a perfect start.

这不是一个结构化的评估，但这是一个完美的开始。

And then it's obviously the follow-up that makes a big difference and that just takes so little time from the product lead, the small notches, that's super easy.

显然，后续行动会产生很大的影响，而且只需要产品负责人花费很少的时间，小缺口，这非常简单。

And these development plans, I usually tell people to create a new one with a new headline or topic once a quarter or every four months.

对于这些发展计划，我通常告诉人们每季度或每四个月创建一个新的标题或主题的新计划。

So that is not a massive time invest as well.

所以这也不是大量的时间投入。

So that would be my suggestion for where to start, if that helps.

如果有帮助的话，这就是我从哪里开始的建议。

Lenny: Yeah, I love that advice because I can imagine a lot of people get stuck in that first one of, "I don't know all of the things that I need to know about what a great PM right now is." So that's a nice simple way to start.

莱尼：是的，我喜欢这个建议，因为我可以想象很多人都会陷入第一个建议中，“我不知道我现在需要知道的关于什么是伟大的 PM 的所有事情。”所以这是一个很好的简单的开始方式。

Petra Wille: And there is another aspect to it.

Petra Wille：还有另一个方面。

A lot of product leads try to create their compass.

许多产品负责人尝试创建自己的指南针。

And while they do so, they think about, "Maybe I should have an aligned version with my peers." So the other product leads in the company.

当他们这样做时，他们会想，“也许我应该有一个与我的同行一致的版本。”所以其他产品在公司中处于领先地位。

And then we're talking about the career levels and all these things and often takes ages until something is coming back from HR or you have a unified version.

然后我们谈论职业水平和所有这些事情，通常需要很长时间才能从人力资源部门得到反馈或者你有一个统一的版本。

So that is something where I usually say, "No, start with your own personal team because the folks in your team usually just have you as a line manager.

所以我通常会说：“不，从你自己的个人团队开始，因为你团队中的人通常只让你担任直线经理。

So grade your compass and encourage your peers to grade their compass and, a bit down the line, it might make sense to harmonize some of that, but it's better to start helping your product folks and giving them some orientation than being totally paralyzed by the fact that it's not a compass that is used in the whole company."

因此，对你的指南针进行评分，并鼓励你的同事对他们的指南针进行评分，从长远来看，协调其中的一些可能是有意义的，但最好开始帮助你的产品人员并给他们一些指导，而不是因为它不是整个公司使用的指南针而完全瘫痪。”

Lenny: I want to talk about this compass and how to figure out what a competent PM is.

莱尼：我想谈谈这个指南针，以及如何判断什么是称职的总理。

And I know you have a framework around this and I have some stuff I'll actually share, too.

我知道你们有一个围绕这个的框架，我也有一些我实际上会分享的东西。

But on this latter piece of checking in the development plan, I wrote about this once, but I'll share it here briefly.

但是关于开发计划的后一项检查，我曾经写过一次，但我将在这里简单分享一下。

Something that I did with my PMs that was so effective was every time we did a performance review, every six months, we had a performance review, we put together a Google Doc with all of the things that we agree they should be working on and we pick, say, five themes or three themes, and then we pick very concrete things they should do over the next six months that will help them develop these things.

我和我的产品经理所做的非常有效的事情是，每次我们进行绩效评估时，每六个月进行一次绩效评估，我们将我们同意他们应该做的所有事情放在一起谷歌文档，我们选择五个主题或三个主题，然后我们选择他们在接下来的六个月中应该做的非常具体的事情，这将有助于他们发展这些事情。

Lenny: And then more importantly to your last point is we did a monthly coaching session where we looked at the status of each of these things.

莱尼：对于你的最后一点，更重要的是我们每月进行一次辅导课程，我们会研究每件事的状态。

So there's a color code for each of these 10 things that we all agreed you should be doing these things over the next six months and we checked in how they're going, so that the next performance review, it's not like, "Oh, I forgot all these things."

因此，这 10 件事中的每件事都有一个颜色代码，我们都同意你应该在接下来的六个月内做这些事情，并且我们检查了它们的进展情况，这样下一次绩效评估就不会像“哦，我忘记了所有这些事情。”

Petra Wille: Yeah.

佩特拉·威尔：是的。

Yeah, exactly.

是的，完全正确。

And really, all of us know consistency beats intensity.

事实上，我们都知道一致性胜过强度。

So, really, the smaller time investments on a weekly basis and that applies for the PM's time investment in learning new things and it applies to the product leads investment and helping their people to grow.

因此，实际上，每周投入的时间较少，这适用于产品经理学习新事物的时间投资，也适用于产品领导投资和帮助员工成长。

I think for both parties, it's more likely and more pleasant if you have small chunks of people development in your calendar.

我认为对于双方来说，如果你的日历中有小块的人员发展，那就更有可能、更令人愉快。

And that's why I like your story, right, because you were focusing on regular check-ins more than into the big bang 360-degree reviews.

这就是为什么我喜欢你的故事，对吧，因为你更关注的是定期签到，而不是大爆炸的 360 度评论。

Lenny: And it builds on what your point of the development plan is something the person develops like, "Here's what I believe I should be working on." And it's not like you inform it a bit and give them feedback and maybe this isn't or maybe this other thing.

莱尼：它建立在你的发展计划的观点之上，即该人制定的内容，“这就是我认为我应该努力的事情。”这并不是说你告诉它一点并给他们反馈，也许这不是，也可能是其他的事情。

But, yeah, the fact that they own it, I think, is really powerful.

但是，是的，我认为他们拥有它这一事实真的很强大。

Lenny: Going back to knowing what is a competent PM at a company.

Lenny：回到公司里什么是称职的 PM。

Something I want to ...

有件事我想要...

I'll make sure to include in the show notes for this is I actually did all this research on the career ladders at all of the biggest tech companies.

我会确保在演出笔记中包含这一点，因为我实际上对所有最大的科技公司的职业阶梯进行了所有这些研究。

So I have the spreadsheet that it's public of just the skills that every company evaluates your PMs by, but most companies don't have.

我有一个电子表格，其中公开了每个公司评估 PM 的技能，但大多数公司都没有。

They're not great.

他们并不伟大。

So say your company doesn't have a career ladder competency framework leveling thing, what do you suggest folks do to help figure out what is a competent PM here at our company?

那么，假设您的公司没有职业阶梯能力框架，那么您建议人们做什么来帮助找出我们公司的称职 PM 呢？

Petra Wille: I'd say use one of the assessments that are already out there.

Petra Wille：我想说使用已经存在的评估之一。

Maybe we can include this as well.

也许我们也可以包括这一点。

I wrote a blog post where I put all the ones that I'm aware of into, so there's the PM Daisy and, obviously, Marty Cagan has an assessment, and I created a framework called the PMwheel and there are a few others in there.

我写了一篇博客文章，将我所知道的所有内容都放入其中，因此有 PM Daisy，显然，Marty Cagan 进行了评估，我创建了一个名为 PMwheel 的框架，其中还有其他一些框架。

Go find one that is close to what you actually think a good PM should look like and then customize it.

去找一个最接近你真正认为的优秀 PM 应该是什么样子的，然后对其进行定制。

Don't use it just by copy paste because sometimes you have just rather technical PMs in your organization and then all these assessment points about user interviews and discovery are maybe not that applicable in your situation, right?

不要仅仅通过复制粘贴来使用它，因为有时您的组织中只有相当技术性的 PM，然后所有这些有关用户访谈和发现的评估点可能并不适用于您的情况，对吧？

Petra Wille: So use one template that is close what you want to achieve, heavy customize it because it is really a great inspiration to see, "Oh, these are all the things that other people think a PM should be doing." Or maybe you could merge one or two of those and tailor it to your needs.

Petra Wille：因此，使用一个接近您想要实现的目标的模板，对其进行大量定制，因为看到“哦，这些都是其他人认为 PM 应该做的事情”确实是一个很大的灵感。或者您可以合并其中一两个并根据您的需求进行定制。

So that will be my first suggestion.

这将是我的第一个建议。

Plus, reflecting on the personality traits because I think there are some things that you better hire for and that are super hard to develop in a corporate environment.

另外，反思一下人格特质，因为我认为有些东西是你最好雇佣的，但在企业环境中却很难发展。

So for me, that, for example, is curiosity.

对我来说，这就是好奇心。

I think product people need to be curious about the world, how it works, about things, no matter the topic.

我认为产品人员需要对世界、它是如何运作的、对事物感到好奇，无论主题是什么。

Petra Wille: The best product people that I know, whatever the topic is, they're interested and tell me more about it.

Petra Wille：我认识的最好的产品人员，无论主题是什么，他们都很感兴趣并告诉我更多相关信息。

So that is, for example, there's something I would always check when hiring product people because I know it's hard to build that muscle or empathy, definitely something that I want to hire for.

举例来说，在招聘产品人员时我总是会检查一些东西，因为我知道很难建立这种力量或同理心，而这绝对是我想要雇用的东西。

I know that I can help them develop this muscle a bit more and stepping into shoes of users, and stakeholders, and colleagues easier.

我知道我可以帮助他们进一步发展这种力量，并更容易地站在用户、利益相关者和同事的立场上。

But still, if there is, yeah, not a decent level of empathy built into this person, then it's nearly impossible for me as a product lead to help them get towards a seasoned level.

但是，如果这个人没有足够的同理心，那么我作为产品负责人几乎不可能帮助他们达到经验丰富的水平。

So that's another important thing.

这是另一件重要的事情。

Think about personality traits and think about skills and know-how and to think about skills and know-how.

思考人格特质，思考技能和知识，思考技能和知识。

Use some of the already established assessments.

使用一些已经建立的评估。

Lenny: So we will try to link to as many of those that you mentioned in the show notes.

莱尼：所以我们会尝试链接到您在演出笔记中提到的尽可能多的内容。

Maybe talk about the PMwheel, which is the framework that you suggest for folks to understand, just like what are all the skills that a PM needs to have.

也许可以谈谈 PMwheel，这是您建议人们理解的框架，就像 PM 需要具备的所有技能一样。

Petra Wille: It's hard to talk about that really briefly.

Petra Wille：很难简单地谈论这个问题。

So I split all the things that PMs usually do in eight buckets, so to say.

所以可以这么说，我将 PM 通常做的所有事情分为八个部分。

And it starts with our day able to understand the underlying problems that users and the company actually is having.

从我们能够了解用户和公司实际面临的根本问题开始。

Are they good in finding solutions to those problems?

他们善于找到这些问题的解决方案吗？

Then they do some planning parts.

然后他们做一些计划部分。

Are they able to maybe come up with a roadmap or with good goals that are aligning the team, these kind of things.

他们是否能够拿出一个路线图或一个使团队保持一致的良好目标，诸如此类的事情。

And it's get it done that's already able to actually deliver the thing to work with the team that's maybe writing backlog items and all these kind of things.

它已经完成了，已经能够实际交付东西给可能正在编写积压项目和所有此类事情的团队。

Petra Wille: Then it's listen and learn.

Petra Wille：然后就是倾听和学习。

So are they able to really gather a lot of data these days and then look into what customers are actually saying.

那么，现在他们是否能够真正收集大量数据，然后研究客户的实际言论。

So the qualitative and quantitative aftermath of stuff going live.

因此，产品上线后的定性和定量后果。

And are they able to iterate on the solutions that they shipped?

他们是否能够迭代他们发布的解决方案？

Petra Wille: And then it's another three buckets that are a bit out of the PM process, which is team.

Petra Wille：另外三个部分有点超出 PM 流程，即团队。

So do they know about how teams actually are different from working with individuals?

那么他们是否知道团队与个人合作实际上有何不同？

Do they think they have to motivate a team?

他们认为必须激励团队吗？

Can you motivate a team?

你能激励团队吗？

So this whole teamwork part.

这就是整个团队合作的一部分。

Then it's personal growth.

然后是个人成长。

I put it on my PMwheel because I want that to be part of every conversation that I have with my PM.

我把它放在我的 PMwheel 上，因为我希望它成为我与 PM 的每次对话的一部分。

So that's why it's on the wheel.

这就是它在车轮上的原因。

And then last, but not least, it's agile because when I was still coaching PMs, I often found that they never reflected on the underlying basics of agile ways of working.

最后但并非最不重要的一点是，它是敏捷的，因为当我还在指导 PM 时，我经常发现他们从未反思过敏捷工作方式的底层基础知识。

So they often never heard about the agile manifesto, or agile values, or agile principles, no matter what framework they're using.

因此，无论他们使用什么框架，他们通常从未听说过敏捷宣言、敏捷价值观或敏捷原则。

But I think that is key.

但我认为这是关键。

So that's bucket number eight.

这是第八个桶。

Petra Wille: And every of those buckets comes with at least 15 framing questions.

Petra Wille：每个桶都至少包含 15 个框架问题。

So is this person good at doing this?

那么这个人擅长这样做吗？

Is this person good in doing that?

这个人擅长这样做吗？

And it hopefully gives you a really nice and well-rounded picture of where this person currently is.

希望它能让您对这个人目前的处境有一个非常全面的了解。

And I usually advise people to do a self-assessment, then ask their line management for an assessment, and ideally some of your team members because they have a different perspective on you as a product management personality as well.

我通常建议人们进行自我评估，然后要求他们的直线管理层进行评估，最好是你的一些团队成员，因为他们对你作为产品管理人员也有不同的看法。

Lenny: So folks who want to see that, maybe they Google PMwheel, Petra, and also link to it.

Lenny：所以那些想要看到这一点的人，也许他们会谷歌 PMwheel、Petra，并链接到它。

How did you develop this?

你是如何开发这个的？

I managed it and came from talking to a lot of PMs and just like, "Here's the things that I see again and again PMs need to be good at to be successful."

我成功地做到了这一点，并且在与很多产品经理交谈后得出这样的结论：“这是我一次又一次看到产品经理需要擅长的事情才能取得成功。”

Petra Wille: Yeah, it was actually ...

Petra Wille：是的，实际上是......

That would have been pretty cool.

那真是太酷了。

It was more the personal need of me starting off as a product coach.

这更多的是我作为产品教练开始的个人需求。

And you had this sense of, "I need this compass," because how should you start a coaching conversation.

你有这样的感觉，“我需要这个指南针”，因为你应该如何开始教练对话。

I first have to learn about what is their perception about them and their capabilities in there and the help.

我首先必须了解他们对自己的看法以及他们的能力和帮助。

And then I can help them work on some of the things they want to work on.

然后我可以帮助他们做一些他们想做的事情。

But it is often that coaches come totally unprepared to the coaching, especially when the companies actually are paying it for them and to some extent forcing them into the coaching.

但教练常常对辅导完全没有准备，尤其是当公司实际上为他们付费并在某种程度上强迫他们接受辅导时。

And then they're just like, "Okay, they told me to show up.

然后他们就说，“好吧，他们让我出现。

Petra, what should we do in these sessions?" And then that's why I created the PMwheel to have these first conversations about where they think we should invest more time in our coaching sessions.

佩特拉，我们在这些会议中应该做什么？”这就是为什么我创建了 PMwheel 来进行第一次对话，讨论他们认为我们应该在辅导课程中投入更多时间的地方。

So that's how I created it.

这就是我创建它的方式。

Lenny: Cool.

莱尼：酷。

Coming back to just the bigger question, we've been talking about just how to become a better manager lead, a coach to your product managers.

回到更大的问题，我们一直在讨论如何成为更好的经理领导，产品经理的教练。

It's interesting how simple it is.

有趣的是它是多么简单。

The way you frame this in your writing is it's like five ingredients to be the best coach your PMs have ever had.

您在写作中阐述这一点的方式是，成为您的产品经理有史以来最好的教练需要具备五个要素。

And if you look at this list of things to do, it's very straightforward and not a lot of work.

如果你看看这个要做的事情清单，就会发现它非常简单，而且不需要很多工作。

Figure out what they need to do to be successful, where are they now, align on that with them, and then just give them some things to focus on to move closer to where they need to be.

弄清楚他们需要做什么才能成功，他们现在在哪里，与他们保持一致，然后给他们一些需要关注的事情，以更接近他们需要达到的目标。

That doesn't take a lot of time.

这并不需要很多时间。

Petra Wille: Yeah, I totally agree.

Petra Wille：是的，我完全同意。

The book talks about some more aspects, actually.

实际上，这本书还讨论了更多方面。

So that's more or less the first two parts of the book.

这或多或少是本书的前两部分。

And then there is more on onboarding and hiring, create product people.

然后还有更多关于入职和招聘、创建产品人员的内容。

There is a lot more.

还有很多。

So that's actually the biggest part about how to coach certain concepts of today's product management industry, so to say.

可以说，这实际上是关于如何指导当今产品管理行业的某些概念的最重要部分。

Hypothesis-driven product development, for example.

例如，假设驱动的产品开发。

Petra Wille: How do you explain these concepts to people that are not yet familiar with these things?

Petra Wille：您如何向还不熟悉这些东西的人解释这些概念？

And really, it helps product leads to reflect, "Okay, what are the small things that I could help them to get better at certain things?" Because that's actually where a lot of the magic happens.

事实上，它可以帮助产品领导反思，“好吧，我可以帮助他们在某些事情上做得更好的小事情是什么？”因为这实际上是很多魔法发生的地方。

We tend to read all the books and we tend to know all our thought leaders and all these kind of things, but our product people often need super practical advice.

我们倾向于阅读所有书籍，我们倾向于了解所有思想领袖和所有此类事情，但我们的产品人员通常需要超级实用的建议。

So maybe it's really something like explaining them the Eisenhower matrix for getting better time management because they never heard about anything that could help them prioritize their tasks because that's the reality that we find in a lot of the companies, right?

所以也许这真的就像向他们解释艾森豪威尔矩阵以获得更好的时间管理，因为他们从未听说过任何可以帮助他们确定任务优先级的东西，因为这就是我们在很多公司中发现的现实，对吗？

So that big part of the book is really this, how do you really help them understand the small tasks and things that the daily work requests them to do.

所以这本书的很大一部分实际上是这样的，你如何真正帮助他们理解日常工作要求他们做的小任务和事情。

Lenny: I think a lot of that I find is when you need something, that's the time to find it, and introduce it, and read about it.

莱尼：我认为我发现的很多事情都是当你需要某样东西时，就该找到它、介绍它并阅读它。

There's so much content.

内容真多啊

Lenny: I'm guilty of this.

莱尼：我对此感到内疚。

Just there's a lot of stuff to read and listen to as a PM.

作为产品经理，有很多东西需要阅读和聆听。

And I find you don't need to be listening to and reading everything all the time.

我发现你不需要一直聆听和阅读所有内容。

It's just like, I need to figure out how to prioritize.

就像，我需要弄清楚如何确定优先顺序。

Let's see what's out there that's awesome.

让我们看看那里有什么很棒的东西。

And maybe save it for the future, but there's so much stress, I think, that goes into like, "Oh my God, I got to read everything all the time."

也许可以把它留到未来，但我想，压力太大了，就像“天哪，我必须一直阅读所有内容。”

Petra Wille: Yeah, I totally agree.

Petra Wille：是的，我完全同意。

I think two weeks ago, one of my coaches told me that he stopped reading a lot of books and consuming a lot of content and he instead dedicates the whole year to using one methodology or book.

我想两周前，我的一位教练告诉我，他不再阅读大量书籍并消耗大量内容，而是将一整年的时间投入到使用一种方法或书籍上。

So in that case, pick Teresa's Continuous Discovery Habits and that's what they read over and over again for the whole year.

因此，在这种情况下，请选择特蕾莎的《持续发现习惯》，这就是他们全年反复阅读的内容。

And I think it's an interesting way of looking at things.

我认为这是一种看待事物的有趣方式。

Lenny: That is interesting.

莱尼：这很有趣。

That's a very committed, better pick the right book that are or whatever .

这是一本非常投入的书，最好选择正确的书或其他什么。

Petra Wille: Yeah, that she has said is true.

Petra Wille：是的，她说的是真的。

Yeah.

是的。

But maybe some of your colleagues pick another book and then you can just share what you learned, and what works better, and a bit of a community thing.

但也许你的一些同事会选择另一本书，然后你就可以分享你学到的东西、哪些方法效果更好，以及一些社区的事情。

Lenny: Oh, we're going to get to that.

莱尼：哦，我们会解决这个问题的。

I like that.

我喜欢这样。

Before we get to retelling topic, is there anything else you want to share along the lines of the folks are just like, "I want to become a better coach to my PMs?" Any other thoughts you want to close with?

在我们开始重述主题之前，您还有什么想与大家分享的吗？比如“我想成为我的产品经理的更好教练？”您还有其他想法想结束吗？

Petra Wille: Yeah.

佩特拉·威尔：是的。

One easy tip is get yourself a list of great questions that you could ask in one on ones if you don't have the time to prepare.

一个简单的技巧是给自己准备一份重要问题清单，如果您没有时间准备，可以一对一地提出这些问题。

That will be one of my tips as well.

这也将是我的建议之一。

There's several great coaching books out there.

那里有几本很棒的教练书籍。

Some of questions are in my book as well.

我的书中也有一些问题。

Yeah, just find some coaching questions, make your small compilation, and then really see what resonates with your team, and that often is a bit of a health check.

是的，只需找到一些指导问题，制作一个小汇编，然后真正看看哪些内容能与您的团队产生共鸣，这通常是一种健康检查。

So how are you doing?

那么你怎么样？

What would make you more successful in the role that you're currently having?

什么会让您在目前的职位上更加成功？

All these kind of things could be helpful.

所有这些事情都会有所帮助。

Lenny: Do you have any other examples of those?

莱尼：你还有其他例子吗？

That's actually useful and just a few more examples of coaching questions.

这实际上很有用，只是一些教练问题的例子。

Petra Wille: Yeah, it really depends.

Petra Wille：是的，这确实取决于情况。

So what I find super helpful is a list of emotions because people tend to find it really hard to talk about how they currently really are.

所以我发现超级有用的是情绪列表，因为人们往往发现很难谈论他们目前的真实情况。

And I don't know why this is the case, maybe it's stress, maybe it's not feeling comfortable to talk about this with your line manager, which is another topic, and bringing us back to the topic of company culture.

我不知道为什么会出现这种情况，也许是压力，也许与直线经理谈论这个问题感觉不舒服，这是另一个话题，让我们回到公司文化的话题。

But that, for example, is something that I always have handy.

但是，例如，这是我总是方便的东西。

And if I have this notion of, "Okay, this person maybe really needs a hack to some extent," then this conversation about, "Hey, look, there is this list of 30 emotions, where do you think you currently add and why and could I help you with that?" So that could be something.

如果我有这样的想法，“好吧，这个人在某种程度上可能真的需要黑客攻击”，那么这个对话就是“嘿，看，有 30 种情绪的列表，你认为你目前在哪里添加，为什么以及我可以帮助你吗？”所以这可能是一些事情。

And then there are ...

然后还有...

I think you talked about Mochary the other day, right?

我想你前几天谈到了莫卡里，对吧？

Lenny: Yeah.

莱尼：是的。

That episode just came out.

那一集刚刚出来。

Petra Wille: Yeah, exactly.

佩特拉·威尔：是的，完全正确。

And he has a great framework as well.

他也有一个很棒的框架。

I would need to look the questions up, but maybe we put them in the show notes as well.

我需要查一下这些问题，但也许我们也把它们放在演出笔记中。

That's a bit of in-house check as well and huge.

这也是一些内部检查，而且规模很大。

First of all, it's five easy assessment questions for your folks.

首先，这是针对您的家人的五个简单评估问题。

And then it's more of, "Okay, if you're ranking yourself a six, how could I help you to make it a seven?" So it really focuses on incremental improvements, not crazy stressing everybody out improvements, not, "What could I do to make it a 10?" It's more really, "How could I improve your situation?

然后更多的是，“好吧，如果你给自己打分是六分，我怎样才能帮助你达到七分呢？”所以它真正关注的是渐进式改进，而不是疯狂地向每个人强调改进，而不是“我能做些什么才能使它成为 10 分？”更真实的是，“我怎样才能改善你的处境？

Really build rapport, really be there for your product folks.

真正建立融洽的关系，真正为你的产品人员提供帮助。

Petra Wille: And I think creating this list of coaching questions as a go-to list could improve the quality of your one on ones because, let's face it, we often run into those ones.

Petra Wille：我认为创建这个教练问题列表作为首选列表可以提高一对一的质量，因为，让我们面对现实，我们经常遇到这些问题。

Either we ditch them or we run into those ones completely unprepared.

我们要么抛弃它们，要么在毫无准备的情况下遇到它们。

And a development plan could help and a prepared list of coaching questions could help to make it way easier.

发展计划可能会有所帮助，而准备好的辅导问题清单也可以帮助让事情变得更容易。

And for your PMs to feel more valued.

让您的产品经理感到更有价值。

Lenny: That's a great callback to the Matt.

莱尼：这是对马特的一次很好的回调。

And by the way, his name's France, Matt Moshary, instead of Mochary.

顺便说一句，他的名字叫弗朗斯，马特·莫沙里，而不是莫卡里。

The C-H was like a sh.

C-H 就像一个 sh。

Petra Wille: learn something.

佩特拉·威尔：学到一些东西。

Now, we know.

现在，我们知道了。

That's good.

那很好。

Lenny: Yeah.

莱尼：是的。

And you pointed out in his curriculum, he has a bunch of questions that you mentioned about where are you at one to 10 on this thing and then how do we get you to ...

你在他的课程中指出，他有一堆你提到的问题，关于你在这件事上从一到十的水平，然后我们如何让你......

Lenny: ...

莱尼：……

eight or nine.

八个或九个。

So we'll link to that in the show notes also.

因此，我们也会在演出笔记中链接到该内容。

So many more things to read from this podcast.

从这个播客中还有很多东西可以读。

Petra Wille: So many things to link.

Petra Wille：有很多东西可以联系起来。

Sorry.

抱歉。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by AssemblyAI.

Lenny：本集由 AssemblyAI 为您带来。

If you're looking to build powerful AI-powered features in your audio or video products, then you need to know about AssemblyAI.

如果您希望在音频或视频产品中构建强大的人工智能功能，那么您需要了解 AssemblyAI。

AssemblyAI is the API platform for state-of-the-art AI models, the thousands of product-led growth companies like Spotify, Loom, and CallRail are using to infuse AI into their products.

AssemblyAI 是最先进的人工智能模型的 API 平台，Spotify、Loom 和 CallRail 等数千家以产品为主导的成长型公司正在使用它将人工智能注入到他们的产品中。

With simple APIs, developers and PMs can get access to powerful AI models for transcription, summarization, and dozens of other tasks that are fast, secure, and production ready.

通过简单的 API，开发人员和产品经理可以访问功能强大的 AI 模型，以进行转录、摘要以及其他数十项快速、安全且可用于生产的任务。

All of their models are researched and trained in-house and continuously updated by their team of AI experts, which, for PM, makes it easy to build and ship new AI-powered features.

他们的所有模型都是内部研究和训练的，并由他们的人工智能专家团队不断更新，这对于 PM 来说，可以轻松构建和发布新的人工智能功能。

Lenny: Product teams at the startups and enterprises are using AssemblyAI to automatically transcribe and summarize phone calls and virtual meetings, detect topics in podcasts, pinpoint when sensitive content is spoken, redact PII from audio videos, and way more.

Lenny：初创公司和企业的产品团队正在使用 AssemblyAI 自动转录和总结电话和虚拟会议、检测播客中的主题、查明何时说出敏感内容、从音频视频中编辑 PII 等等。

Lenny: Visit assembly ai.com to try AssemblyAI's API for free and start testing their models in their no-code playground.

Lenny：访问 assembly ai.com 免费试用 AssemblyAI 的 API，并开始在无代码游乐场中测试他们的模型。

That's assembly ai.com.

这就是装配ai.com。

Lenny: Well, let's get to a happier, simpler topic, maybe not, storytelling.

莱尼：好吧，让我们讨论一个更快乐、更简单的话题，也许不是，讲故事。

So just setting context.

所以只是设置上下文。

It feels like as a PM, also as a founder, also as just a leader of any kind, you're always told you need to be a great storyteller.

感觉就像作为一名产品经理，作为一名创始人，也作为任何类型的领导者，你总是被告知你需要成为一个出色的讲故事的人。

That's a big part of leadership.

这是领导力的重要组成部分。

Be a great storyteller because that gets people excited and onboard with your building.

成为一名出色的讲故事者，因为这会让人们兴奋并参与您的建筑。

But it feels like I've heard so many things about becoming a better storyteller.

但感觉我听过很多关于成为一个更好的故事讲述者的事情。

There's always feels great when you're reading it and then you get to a deck you're starting or a meeting you're about to run or a doc and like, "Shit, how do I make this a good story?" I need some conflict maybe and a ...

当你阅读它时，总是感觉很棒，然后你看到你正在开始的甲板或你即将举行的会议或一个文档，就像，“糟糕，我怎样才能把它变成一个好故事？”我可能需要一些冲突和......

I don't know, there's a hero's journey, there's all these things that you're like, "I don't know, I don't know what I'm doing."

我不知道，有一个英雄的旅程，有所有这些你喜欢的事情，“我不知道，我不知道我在做什么。”

Lenny: So I guess just a broad question.

莱尼：所以我想这只是一个广泛的问题。

Say you're PM who wants to get better at storytelling, do you have any things you would suggest that are just concrete things someone could do today, tomorrow, this week to become a better storyteller, to level up their storytelling skills?

假设你是一名想要提高讲故事能力的产品经理，你有什么建议可以建议一些人今天、明天、本周可以做的具体事情，以成为一个更好的讲故事的人，提高他们讲故事的技能吗？

Petra Wille: Yes, I think I would love to mention two things.

Petra Wille：是的，我想我想提两件事。

So first of all, people that's starting, often they are getting a better storytelling journey.

首先，刚开始的人通常会获得更好的讲故事之旅。

Often totally underestimate how many time actually great storytellers are investing in creating the stories and making sure they can share the story in nice ways and formats.

通常完全低估了优秀的故事讲述者实际投入多少时间来创作故事并确保他们能够以良好的方式和格式分享故事。

So that's maybe the first tip, you have to plan to put in a lot of work to create your story.

所以这可能是第一个技巧，你必须计划投入大量工作来创作你的故事。

Lenny: And when you say a lot of work, what are you thinking?

莱尼：当你说要做很多工作时，你在想什么？

What's an order of magnitude of time depending on the scale of the story or a deck, or?

根据故事或牌组的规模，时间的数量级是多少？

Petra Wille: Rule of thumb.

佩特拉·威尔：经验法则。

So I think if you ...

所以我想如果你...

Let's say you want to explain the rest of the company what you and the team are up for the next three to four months, so to say.

假设您想向公司其他人员解释您和团队在接下来的三到四个月内的计划。

Then I think that's two weeks of work, not eight hours a day, obviously, but two weeks of work, maybe one or two hours a day to really carve that story and think about different audiences and different framings of, when am I able to tell the story?

然后我认为这是两周的工作，显然不是每天八小时，而是两周的工作，也许每天一两个小时来真正雕刻这个故事并思考不同的观众和不同的框架，我什么时候能够讲述这个故事？

And that is actually, I think, a rule of thumb of time investment.

我认为这实际上是时间投资的经验法则。

So it takes time because people often think, "I don't know, you just get better overnight in telling great stories." It's just not how it works.

所以这需要时间，因为人们常常想，“我不知道，你在一夜之间就能更好地讲述精彩的故事。”这不是它的工作原理。

So you have to practice and you have to put in a lot of work and time to come up with a logical, compelling, motivating story that then lasts for longer than a week or two.

所以你必须练习，你必须投入大量的工作和时间来想出一个合乎逻辑的、引人注目的、激励人心的故事，然后持续超过一两周的时间。

So that's a lot of work.

所以这是很多工作。

Petra Wille: And then the other tip would be really make sure that you're using language that speaks to the heart and the minds of the people because we constantly tend to use too much of our business lingo and it's banner blindness.

Petra Wille：另一个建议是确保您使用的语言能够打动人们的内心和思想，因为我们经常倾向于使用太多的商业术语，这是横幅盲目性。

Some of the words that we're using people totally overhearing them because we're using them so often.

我们使用的一些词人们完全无意中听到，因为我们经常使用它们。

And it could be even things like product discovery.

甚至可能是产品发现之类的事情。

So maybe your company is already so fed up with all your product discovery stuff that you should start using different terms.

因此，也许您的公司已经厌倦了所有产品发现内容，因此您应该开始使用不同的术语。

Even if then, say, hypothesis-driven product management, it's more or less the same thing, and maybe it's even too complex.

即使那样，假设驱动的产品管理，也或多或少是同一件事，甚至可能太复杂了。

Maybe you can find something simpler and say, "We need to learn something about this particular thing," because studies show that's a scientific background.

也许你可以找到一些更简单的东西，然后说：“我们需要了解一些关于这个特定事物的知识”，因为研究表明这是一个科学背景。

Stories really have an impact on our brain.

故事确实对我们的大脑有影响。

Petra Wille: So hormones get released depending on how the story is actually formed, if they have cliffhangers or if it's really like, whoa, with the hero and think, "Where is it going to take him", or something like that.

Petra Wille：所以荷尔蒙的释放取决于故事的实际形成方式，是否有悬念，或者是否真的像，哇，与英雄一起思考，“它将带他去哪里”，或类似的东西。

And that releases, yeah, hormones in your brain and that only happens if you're using natural world, so to say.

是的，这会释放你大脑中的激素，可以这么说，只有当你使用自然世界时才会发生这种情况。

So you could talk about smell, and sense, and how people feel, and how their life would be better if this product would be out, all these kind of things.

所以你可以谈论气味、感觉、人们的感受，以及如果这个产品问世，他们的生活会如何变得更好，所有这些事情。

So really make sure that you think about that really speak to their minds and to their hearts and remove all your three-letter abbreviations and all these kind of things, which is something that everybody says as well.

因此，请务必确保您真正考虑到了他们的想法和内心，并删除所有三个字母的缩写和所有此类内容，这也是每个人都会说的。

But it is way harder to do it when you really start to create your story to remove all these terms.

但是，当您真正开始创建故事以删除所有这些术语时，做到这一点要困难得多。

And that takes a lot of time, yeah, as well.

这也需要很多时间，是的，也。

So you have to really put an effort into the don't use too much .

所以你必须真正付出努力，不要使用太多。

Lenny: So the first point, which I love, is you think people are just good at this and naturally great at telling a great story.

莱尼：所以我喜欢的第一点是，你认为人们很擅长这一点，并且天生擅长讲述一个精彩的故事。

But a lot of it is ...

但很多都是...

Right.

对。

Some people are ...

有些人是...

You do it enough and you're like, "It'll be quicker probably." But for most people, it's going to be just put in the time and it gets better and better and your story merges, you practice.

你做得足够多了，你就会想，“可能会更快。”但对于大多数人来说，只要投入时间，它就会变得越来越好，你的故事会融合在一起，你会练习。

Petra Wille: Yeah.

佩特拉·威尔：是的。

And it's a cultural thing.

这是一个文化问题。

So I really find in average Americans, for example, being better at it than most of us Europeans.

例如，我确实发现普通美国人比我们大多数欧洲人更擅长这一点。

And I think that's because even in your school system, it seems to me, I don't know, you tell me if that is the case, but storytelling and being in front of a class or something like this is something that is encouraged and valued already, where at least when I was at school, this was not part of the whole system at all.

我认为这是因为即使在你们的学校系统中，在我看来，我不知道，你告诉我是否是这样，但是讲故事和在班级面前或类似的事情已经被鼓励和重视，至少在我在学校的时候，这根本不是整个系统的一部分。

So really late it was part of what we did, but not from an early age.

所以真的很晚了，这是我们所做的一部分，但不是从很小的时候开始。

So it's just not something, yeah, that we trained in or that we used to.

所以，是的，这不是我们训练过的东西，也不是我们过去训练过的东西。

So sometimes even speaking in front of 30 people, people are freaking out because they never did that.

因此，有时即使在 30 人面前讲话，人们也会感到害怕，因为他们从未这样做过。

So that's their cultural differences to that definitely as well.

这也是他们的文化差异。

Lenny: Speaking of the idea of speaking in public and being nervous and that kind of thing, which I always get really nervous speaking in public and people don't think that when they hear me and other folks that are publicly speaking, but it's like freaks me out every time.

莱尼：说到在公共场合演讲和紧张之类的事情，我在公共场合演讲时总是感到非常紧张，人们在听到我和其他人公开演讲时不会这么认为，但每次都让我感到害怕。

Do you have any advice for people that want to become better public speakers/be less nervous speaking publicly?

您对那些想要成为更好的公共演讲者/在公开演讲时不那么紧张的人有什么建议吗？

Petra Wille: I was really bad in as well, I have to tell you.

Petra Wille：我必须告诉你，我也表现得很糟糕。

And it's still not something that I love, but I know it's part of the work that we do.

这仍然不是我喜欢的事情，但我知道这是我们所做工作的一部分。

Petra Wille: And so the easiest way is to get in front of really small and super friendly audiences.

Petra Wille：所以最简单的方法就是在非常小且超级友好的观众面前进行展示。

So that is, I think, the first starting point.

我认为这是第一个起点。

And I don't know where that is.

我不知道那是哪里。

That could be your team, that's a super small audience, usually five to 10 people, or maybe you pine with your company of 80 people or 120 people, maybe the company all-hands is already something where you could actually speak.

那可能是你的团队，那是一个超级小的观众，通常是 5 到 10 人，或者也许你厌倦了 80 人或 120 人的公司，也许公司全体员工已经是你可以真正发言的地方了。

That was my first time and I had to speak in front of the whole company at a company all-hands around 90 people back at the time.

那是我第一次，当时我必须在全公司全体员工面前发表演讲，当时公司约有 90 名员工。

And I only had to give a brief update on what we did the last two weeks and it was like five minutes on stage, but it freaked me out.

我只需要简单介绍一下我们过去两周所做的事情，在台上大约五分钟，但这让我感到害怕。

Petra Wille: So that's where I'm coming from and it really helped me to start small.

Petra Wille：这就是我的出身，它确实帮助我从小事做起。

Then product tanks, for example, this local product community meetups totally helped me because friendly human beings and not too many of them.

然后是产品坦克，例如，这个本地产品社区聚会完全帮助了我，因为友好的人而且不是太多。

So sometimes they're just 30 people attending and then you in the summer, not so many people are coming, so why not giving a talk there?

所以有时他们只有 30 个人参加，然后你在夏天，没有那么多人来，那为什么不在那里发表演讲呢？

So really start small and then grow the audience over time and always make sure, because that helped me a lot, to get feedback from strangers and peers if possible.

所以，从小事做起，然后随着时间的推移扩大受众，并始终确保，因为这对我有很大帮助，如果可能的话，从陌生人和同行那里获得反馈。

Because the peers tend to give you the harsher critique, so to say, where the strangers are more polite, but they're not so familiar with the work you do or with the story that you want to tell so they can spot some gaps in your storytelling technique or something like that.

因为同龄人往往会给你更严厉的批评，也就是说，陌生人更有礼貌，但他们对你所做的工作或你想讲的故事不太熟悉，所以他们可以发现你讲故事技巧中的一些差距或类似的东西。

Petra Wille: So that is something that helped me a lot to always have this friendly soul in the front row, where I know I get some feedback from later on.

Petra Wille：所以这对我有很大帮助，让这个友好的灵魂总是坐在前排，我知道我稍后会得到一些反馈。

Plus, then having complete strangers and there's always somebody coming up after the talk, right, so they could be your first person giving you some stranger feedback, so to say.

另外，还有完全陌生的人，演讲结束后总会有人上来，对吧，所以他们可能是你第一个给你一些陌生人反馈的人，可以这么说。

Lenny: What about if you're just about to give a talk and you're like, "Oh my god, I'm so nervous," do you find anything that helps you get over that?

莱尼：如果你正要发表演讲，你会说，“天哪，我太紧张了”，你能找到什么可以帮助你克服这种紧张感吗？

Petra Wille: I think the two things that work well, it's either the Superman pose, so that is one thing.

Petra Wille：我认为有两件事效果很好，要么是超人姿势，所以这是一回事。

If you're standing like this looking straightly up, that is one thing that helps many people.

如果你像这样站着，直视上方，这对很多人都有帮助。

It's not my preferred one.

这不是我的首选。

And then the other one is a bit of the gorilla thing, just like tapping here.

然后另一个有点像大猩猩的东西，就像点击这里一样。

There is ...

有...

I don't know what's the English-

不知道英文是什么

Petra Wille: I need to look it up.

Petra Wille：我需要查一下。

And if you just, yeah, hit that softly for some time ...

如果你只是，是的，轻轻地击打一段时间......

Petra Wille: ...

佩特拉·威尔：……

then, yeah, that bumps your energy level, so to say.

然后，是的，可以这么说，这会提高你的能量水平。

So that helps me.

这对我有帮助。

And again, friendly faces front row.

前排再次出现了友好的面孔。

So find people that you like and respect and that you know have the spark in their eyes when you start talking.

因此，找到您喜欢和尊重的人，并且您知道当您开始交谈时，他们的眼中闪烁着火花。

That definitely helps as well.

这肯定也有帮助。

Lenny: Do you suggest doing these moves in the bathroom where no one can see you, or?

莱尼：你建议在没人能看到你的浴室里做这些动作吗？

Petra Wille: Yes, backstage.

Petra Wille：是的，在后台。

You're doing those ones backstage.

这些都是你在后台做的。

And think about what you're wearing because if you're wearing something like that and do this before you enter the stage, people might see that.

想想你穿的是什么，因为如果你穿着类似的衣服并在上台之前这样做，人们可能会看到。

Lenny: Just come out beating your chest.

莱尼：捶胸顿足地出来吧。

It's a power move.

这是一个权力的举动。

Lenny: Do you think it's important for PMs and leaders in general to get great at public speaking or do you think it's okay if they are just okay?

莱尼：您认为对于项目经理和领导者来说，擅长公开演讲是否重要，或者您认为只要他们表现得好就可以吗？

Petra Wille: It really depends.

Petra Wille：这确实要看情况。

So I think not being able to speak publicly and to bring your point across ...

所以我认为无法公开发言并表达你的观点......

Because a lot of people do public speaking, but they never bring their point across.

因为很多人都会公开演讲，但他们从来没有表达过自己的观点。

So if you want to achieve both things, I think it is a career solo if you can for a product person.

因此，如果你想实现这两件事，我认为对于产品人员来说，如果可以的话，这就是一个职业生涯。

Can do the IC level product management job, but getting promoted is way harder if you're not good in telling stories and rallying the team behind the shared goal and all these kind of things.

可以做 IC 级别的产品管理工作，但如果你不擅长讲故事和团结团队支持共同目标以及所有此类事情，那么晋升就会困难得多。

And you usually achieve this through good storytelling techniques.

你通常可以通过良好的讲故事技巧来实现这一点。

Petra Wille: And in some teams, I've seen the product person not being really, really good at it, but then the whole team helped creating the stories and stuff like this.

Petra Wille：在一些团队中，我看到产品人员并不真正非常擅长，但随后整个团队都帮助创建了故事和类似的东西。

So you definitely could compensate to some extent, but I would consider it a bit of a career solo if you don't get to decent level of storytelling and to a decent level of public speaking.

所以你肯定可以在某种程度上进行补偿，但如果你没有达到像样的讲故事水平和像样的公开演讲水平，我会认为这有点像职业生涯的独奏。

So, yeah, I think it's important.

所以，是的，我认为这很重要。

Lenny: Who's the best storyteller PM that you've met and what made them great?

Lenny：谁是你见过的最会讲故事的 PM？是什么让他们如此出色？

Petra Wille: That's another hard question.

Petra Wille：这是另一个难题。

So who had the biggest influence on me was definitely Jason Goldberg.

所以对我影响最大的肯定是贾森·戈德堡。

He was my former boss and he was the first person that came into the startup that I was working for back at the time.

他是我的前老板，也是第一个进入我当时工作的初创公司的人。

And he was really the first person who entered every stage that he could find to talk about the things that he wants to achieve with us as a product team and as a product organization.

他确实是第一个进入他能找到的每个阶段来谈论他希望与我们作为产品团队和产品组织一起实现的目标的人。

In a way, it was really motivational, so it really helped me to experience that and how he was using this product, evangelizing techniques, yeah, to actually really tell the whole company what we're up for currently and what the problems out there he thinks are worth solving.

在某种程度上，这真的很有激励作用，所以它确实帮助我体验了这一点以及他如何使用这个产品，传播技术，是的，真正告诉整个公司我们目前正在做什么以及他认为值得解决的问题是什么。

So that was definitely an inspiration.

所以这绝对是一个灵感。

Petra Wille: And then I think another great speaker is definitely Hans Rosling.

Petra Wille：我认为另一位伟大的演讲家肯定是汉斯·罗斯林。

He's no longer with us.

他不再和我们在一起了。

That's sad.

太悲伤了。

But he gave great TED Talks, really data-heavy TED Talks because they often hear from product people, yeah, but the work we do that's so boring, how could we make a great story out of that?

但他做了很棒的 TED 演讲，确实是数据密集型的 TED 演讲，因为他们经常听到产品人员的声音，是的，但是我们所做的工作太无聊了，我们怎么能从中创作出一个精彩的故事呢？

And I think Hans Rosling showed over and over again that you can.

我认为汉斯·罗斯林一次又一次地证明了你可以。

So that definitely is an inspiration.

所以这绝对是一个灵感。

Petra Wille: And then on a totally different note, I love spoken word poetry because it really talks to the heart and minds of people.

佩特拉·威尔：从另一个完全不同的角度来说，我喜欢口头诗歌，因为它真正能触及人们的内心和思想。

And in my coaching, I usually send people off to the TED Talk from Sarah Kay, which has the nice title, If I Should Have a Daughter.

在我的指导中，我通常会派人去参加 Sarah Kay 的 TED 演讲，演讲的标题很好听，“如果我应该有一个女儿”。

And that really helps people to understand, "Ah, okay, that's how you could be playful with words." And that's what happens to me personally and to my body and to my emotions if I listen to something like that.

这确实有助于人们理解，“啊，好吧，这就是你如何玩文字的方式。”如果我听到这样的事情，这就是我个人、我的身体和我的情绪所发生的事情。

So that's maybe three things I could be mentioning.

这也许是我可以提到的三件事。

Lenny: Hans Rosling's the guy with the world poverty charts and ...

莱尼：汉斯·罗斯林是拥有世界贫困图表的人，并且……

Petra Wille: Now, his son is, I think, in charge, but, yeah.

Petra Wille：现在，我认为是他的儿子负责，但是，是的。

Lenny: Cool.

莱尼：酷。

I'm excited.

我很兴奋。

I'm going to watch that one again.

我要再看一遍那个。

That's a good reminder.

这是一个很好的提醒。

Maybe just another question around storytelling.

也许只是关于讲故事的另一个问题。

Say you're a PM and you're about to start a document or a deck and you just want it to be a good story, what are two or three things you should just do to set yourself up for success?

假设您是一名产品经理，您将要开始编写一份文档或一个演示文稿，并且您只是希望它成为一个好故事，那么您应该做哪两到三件事来为自己的成功做好准备？

Petra Wille: Yeah.

佩特拉·威尔：是的。

First of all, don't sit in front of the blank page for too long, just start drafting something.

首先，不要在空白页前坐太久，开始起草一些东西。

I think there's a lot of beauty in story as a design tool, so to say, because it's even easier to change a story than it is to change a prototype, right?

我认为故事作为一种设计工具有很多美感，可以这么说，因为改变故事比改变原型更容易，对吧？

So even before you put something in writing, you could start talking about it and see how it lands and then tweak it.

因此，即使在你把一些东西写下来之前，你也可以开始谈论它，看看它是如何落地的，然后进行调整。

And I think that's the first thing, get going.

我认为这是第一件事，开始吧。

Petra Wille: And then the other thing is go start talking about your story, go test it, see how it resonates, and then tweak it.

Petra Wille：然后另一件事是开始谈论你的故事，去测试它，看看它如何引起共鸣，然后调整它。

And maybe you could use one of the proven story structures, find the one that helps you most.

也许您可以使用一种经过验证的故事结构，找到对您最有帮助的一个。

Really, even if it's super boring, but I'll use this hero's journey a lot where I think about, should I put the team in the heart of the story?

真的，即使它超级无聊，但我会经常使用这个英雄的旅程，我会思考，我应该把团队放在故事的中心吗？

Because if it's a story that should help me to motivate the team or to inspire the team to actions or something like that, then maybe it's nice if I put them in the center of the story and make them the heroes and talk about the demons and monsters they have to fight to once arrived at this brighter future.

因为如果这个故事应该帮助我激励团队或激励团队采取行动或类似的事情，那么如果我把他们放在故事的中心，让他们成为英雄，并谈论他们一旦到达这个更光明的未来就必须与之战斗的恶魔和怪物，也许会很好。

Petra Wille: And maybe some other times, it makes sense to put the user there and really talk about how their world and lives would have improved once this product is out and available.

Petra Wille：也许在其他时候，将用户放在那里并真正谈论一旦该产品推出并可用，他们的世界和生活将如何改善是有意义的。

Or maybe it's even a feature that we're talking about or a bigger redesign or whatever you're currently working on, right?

或者它甚至可能是我们正在谈论的一个功能或更大的重新设计或您目前正在做的任何事情，对吗？

But you could use this proven story structure and see what are the things in there.

但你可以使用这个经过验证的故事结构，看看里面有什么。

So the call to adventure, what is the call to adventure?

那么冒险的召唤，什么是冒险的召唤呢？

What is this bright future?

这个光明的未来是什么？

And it helps you to start and to get going.

它可以帮助您开始并继续前进。

Petra Wille: And then I usually advise people to have the story handy in various formats.

Petra Wille：然后我通常建议人们以各种格式方便地阅读故事。

So spoken that you could actually talk about it.

说得这么清楚，你实际上可以谈论它。

Written, because we all tend to work in remote or asynchronous environment.

写下来，是因为我们都倾向于在远程或异步环境中工作。

So just a recorded video maybe.

所以也许只是录制的视频。

Yeah, it's good, but maybe a written version of it is nice as well.

是的，这很好，但也许它的书面版本也不错。

And the next one is an illustration that helps you making some of the core points of your story visible to the audience.

下一张是一张插图，可以帮助您向观众展示故事的一些核心要点。

And that could be a whiteboard drawing, a flipchart drawing.

这可能是白板绘图、挂图绘图。

It could be a bigger, maybe it's five slides with emotional pictures on it or whatever it is, but be visual with your story as well.

它可以是更大的，也许是五张幻灯片，上面有情感图片或其他什么，但你的故事也要视觉化。

Petra Wille: And then you should have it ready in three different formats in a super short 75-second elevator pitch version.

Petra Wille：然后你应该在超短的 75 秒电梯推介版本中准备好三种不同的格式。

In the six minutes, I can do this before we actually start planning version.

在六分钟内，我可以在我们真正开始规划版本之前完成此操作。

And ideally, I have to go to the company all-hands and have to talk about what we will look into for the next four months.

理想情况下，我必须全体人员去公司，讨论我们将在接下来的四个月内研究的内容。

And that's maybe an 80 minutes version.

这可能是 80 分钟的版本。

And 80 minutes is the length of an average TED Talk, and there is a reason for that.

80 分钟是 TED 演讲的平均长度，这是有原因的。

It has to do with attention spans and all these kind of things.

它与注意力持续时间和所有这些事情有关。

So that's why I advise people to use this three length.

这就是为什么我建议人们使用这三个长度。

Lenny: An example you're using there is a PM designing the vision for their team potentially or their strategy for the next, say, six months, right?

Lenny：你使用的一个例子是，PM 可能会为他们的团队设计愿景，或者为接下来的六个月设计策略，对吧？

Petra Wille: Yeah, exactly.

佩特拉·威尔：是的，完全正确。

So we don't need to create this complicated story for the next sprint, I'd say.

所以我想说，我们不需要为下一个冲刺创建这个复杂的故事。

That's too much of an effort, maybe waste of time.

这太费力了，也许是浪费时间。

You need to look a bit further out to make it worth spending a lot of time on creating your story.

你需要看得更远一些，才值得花大量时间来创作你的故事。

Lenny: If you had to pick one book or resource that helped you become a better storyteller or that you found other people coming back to that helps them level up their storytelling skills, what comes to mind?

莱尼：如果你必须选择一本书或资源来帮助你成为一个更好的讲故事的人，或者你发现其他人回来读这本书或资源可以帮助他们提高讲故事的技能，你会想到什么？

I'll share one first as you think about that.

当你想到这一点时，我将首先分享一个。

There's a recent book that you wouldn't think would be good at this, but it is really good at helping understand how to tell a story.

最近有一本书，你可能认为它不擅长这方面，但它确实非常有助于理解如何讲故事。

And it's called Nobody Wants to Read Your Shit.

它的名字叫《没人想读你的狗屎》。

And it's by ...

这是由...

Yeah.

是的。

And the title alone is a great lesson, which is, nobody wants to read your stuff.

光是标题就是一个很好的教训，那就是，没有人愿意读你的东西。

Yeah.

是的。

But the premise of the book is how to make it so that people find it interesting and useful.

但这本书的前提是如何让它让人们觉得有趣、有用。

It's by Steven Pressfield who wrote The War of Art and Bagger Vance and all these things.

史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德（Steven Pressfield）写了《艺术之战》和《巴格·万斯》（Bagger Vance）等书。

So it's one of his new books, I think.

我认为这是他的新书之一。

So that's what comes to mind.

这就是我想到的。

Petra Wille: Back in the day when Marty Cagan was my product coach, he made me read Selling the Dream, which is the Macintosh story on product evangelizing by Guy Kawasaki.

Petra Wille：当马蒂·凯根（Marty Cagan）担任我的产品教练时，他让我读了《销售梦想》（Selling the Dream），这是盖伊·川崎（Guy Kawasaki）撰写的关于产品宣传的 Macintosh 故事。

And it didn't help me to become a better storytelling, but it helped me realize that it's really important that I work on that skill.

它并没有帮助我成为一个更好的讲故事的人，但它帮助我意识到练习这项技能非常重要。

So that is actually the trigger and material that helped me is basically everything from Nancy Duarte and Duarte Inc. So there are even leadership books about rituals and how to ignite the spark in all the people you're having.

所以这实际上是对我有帮助的触发因素和材料，基本上是南希·杜阿尔特和杜阿尔特公司的一切。所以甚至还有关于仪式以及如何点燃你所拥有的所有人的火花的领导力书籍。

So they're talking a lot about the leadership aspect of storytelling, but they have something for the IC level as well, 72 rules on storytelling and all these kind of things.

所以他们谈论了很多关于讲故事的领导力方面的内容，但他们也有一些关于 IC 级别的东西，关于讲故事的 72 条规则等等。

And I have a lot of free material.

而且我有很多免费材料。

I know it's not a book, but they have several books and that was great material that helped me to become better.

我知道这不是一本书，但他们有几本书，这是帮助我变得更好的好材料。

Lenny: Man, the show notes on this episode are going to be out of control.

莱尼：伙计，这一集的节目笔记将会失控。

It's going to hit some limit for .

它将达到某个极限。

Petra Wille: Yeah, maybe we're ...

Petra Wille：是的，也许我们...

Yeah, the longest show notes ever.

是的，有史以来最长的表演笔记。

Sorry.

对不起。

Lenny: Oh my God.

莱尼：天啊。

Yeah, it's going to be rough.

是的，这会很艰难。

I'm actually going to try to get Nancy Duarte in this podcast.

实际上我会尝试让 Nancy Duarte 加入这个播客。

Petra Wille: Say hi if you do.

Petra Wille：如果你愿意的话，打个招呼吧。

Yeah, I'm a fan.

是的，我是粉丝。

Lenny: Okay, I'll do that.

莱尼：好的，我会这么做的。

I'll do that.

我会这么做的。

Okay.

好的。

So getting to our final topic, which is around community.

现在进入我们的最后一个主题，即社区。

You're a big fan of finding community and just the power of being in a community, and I know you've done a bunch of research there, you're just like pumping your fist as we talk about this.

您非常热衷于寻找社区以及社区的力量，我知道您已经在那里做了很多研究，当我们谈论这个问题时，您就像挥舞着拳头一样。

I love it.

我喜欢它。

So tell us why you're such a big fan of the power of community for product managers in general.

那么请告诉我们为什么您如此热衷于社区对于产品经理的力量。

Petra Wille: Again, the starting point was a rather egocentric starting point because I'm constantly thinking about, how could I scale the work that I do because I still see so many companies not getting a product coach or I still see so many companies where people development is not a priority, all these kind of things.

Petra Wille：同样，起点是一个相当以自我为中心的起点，因为我不断地思考，我如何扩展我所做的工作，因为我仍然看到很多公司没有产品教练，或者我仍然看到很多公司不把人员发展放在首位，所有这些事情。

And at some point, I thought, if the line manager is not taking care of the personal development, who could?

在某些时候，我想，如果直线经理不关心个人发展，谁会关心呢？

And I talked to several of my colleagues about the question and, at some point, somebody said, "Yeah, that's what community of practices are often used for." So that's where a lot of people get their inspiration.

我和我的几位同事讨论了这个问题，在某个时候，有人说：“是的，这就是实践社区经常用来做的事情。”所以这就是很多人获得灵感的地方。

And basically, I reflected on my career.

基本上，我反思了我的职业生涯。

And early on, I was in a super engaging product organization where, really, we tried a lot, we shared a lot.

早期，我在一个超级有吸引力的产品组织中，实际上，我们尝试了很多，我们分享了很多。

A lot of the things that we tried didn't work at all, but others really fell on fertile grounds and we could learn from each other.

我们尝试过的很多东西根本不起作用，但其他东西确实有沃土，我们可以互相学习。

Petra Wille: And we invested quite some time in this sharing, but everyone got better over time because of this community being present.

Petra Wille：我们在这次分享中投入了相当多的时间，但随着时间的推移，由于这个社区的存在，每个人都变得更好。

And so I decided to make this my topic for this year's research, so to say.

所以我决定把这个作为我今年研究的主题，可以这么说。

And I was talking to a lot of my clients and former clients, "Hey, are you running a community of practice?

我和很多我的客户和前客户交谈，“嘿，你在经营一个实践社区吗？

If you don't run a community of practice, why is that?" Often, they have never considered running one, they don't know where to start.

如果你不经营一个实践社区，那是为什么呢？”通常，他们从未考虑过运行一个，他们不知道从哪里开始。

So that's another problem, obviously.

显然，这是另一个问题。

And at some point, I decided to conduct a survey to see if random strangers can tell me about their companies and their community of practice.

在某个时候，我决定进行一项调查，看看随机的陌生人是否可以告诉我他们的公司和他们的实践社区。

And it was super interesting as well.

这也非常有趣。

Petra Wille: For example, I found that oftentimes there is a bit of a community of practice internally, but they never heard about external product community.

Petra Wille：例如，我发现内部经常有一些实践社区，但他们从未听说过外部产品社区。

So they never heard of your community or to raise this community or mind the product or any of those external communities.

因此，他们从未听说过您的社区，也从未关注过该社区或关注该产品或任何外部社区。

And that is shocking to an extent as well because we're all so friendly human beings, happy to share what we learn, and they don't have to go through the same things over and over again.

这在一定程度上也令人震惊，因为我们都是如此友好的人类，乐于分享我们学到的东西，而且他们不必一遍又一遍地经历同样的事情。

So that's why I think it's a super important question and I would love to help a bit more companies to start a community of practice or to mature the community of practice that they're already having.

因此，这就是为什么我认为这是一个非常重要的问题，我很乐意帮助更多的公司建立实践社区或使他们已经拥有的实践社区变得成熟。

Lenny: What impact have you seen folks get when they join or find a great community?

Lenny：您认为人们加入或找到一个优秀社区后会产生什么影响？

And then what are communities that you find are most useful?

那么您认为最有用的社区是什么？

You mentioned ...

你提到...

And I want to get your advice on what I could do to make it even better, but maybe those two questions.

我想听听你的建议，告诉我我可以做些什么来让它变得更好，但也许是这两个问题。

What impact do you find when you find a great community and then what are some that you ?

当您找到一个优秀的社区时，您会发现什么影响？那么您会发现哪些影响？

Petra Wille: One impact, definitely, is stickiness.

Petra Wille：其中一种影响无疑是粘性。

So people tend to stay with companies where they're learning and growing and can, yeah, get to mastery, so to say.

因此，人们倾向于留在那些他们可以学习和成长的公司，可以这么说，是的，可以精通。

Hello, Daniel Pink.

你好，丹尼尔·平克。

So that is really something that people are thriving for, and if they find this in a company and a product community of practice could be a big part of that.

因此，这确实是人们所追求的目标，如果他们在公司和产品实践社区中发现这一点，那么这可能是其中的重要组成部分。

So that is one impact.

这是一种影响。

Petra Wille: Then the other impact, there's less people development on the desk of the product lead if there is a good product community of practice.

Petra Wille：另一个影响是，如果有一个良好的产品实践社区，那么产品负责人的办公桌上的人员开发就会减少。

So product leads, your life will get so much easier if there is a product community of practice.

因此，产品主导，如果有一个产品实践社区，你的生活会变得更加轻松。

And it's actually a pretty cheap way of doing people development because trainings are expensive, conference tickets are expensive, getting external product coach, expensive.

这实际上是一种相当便宜的人员发展方式，因为培训很昂贵，会议门票很贵，聘请外部产品教练也很贵。

But helping people to learn from each other by making room for that and giving them a bit of time to reflect and to share what they're learning, that's rather cheap.

但是，通过腾出空间并给他们一些时间来反思和分享他们所学到的东西来帮助人们互相学习，这是相当便宜的。

So I think that is the benefits that I see.

所以我认为这就是我看到的好处。

Petra Wille: Training budget impact.

Petra Wille：培训预算影响。

People tend to stay with the company a bit longer.

人们往往会在公司待更长时间。

Leadership wise, it's less a time that you have to invest in people development.

就领导力而言，现在不再需要投资于人员发展。

And then it's just fun for a lot of people.

这对很多人来说都很有趣。

That's another uptake, I'd say.

我想说，这是另一种吸收。

Lenny: What are signs that the community that you're in, say, you found?You mentioned a bunch that I think are awesome.

莱尼：你所在的社区有哪些迹象表明你发现了？你提到了一些我认为非常棒的迹象。

Teresa's community, we'll talk about my Slack a little bit.

Teresa 的社区，我们将讨论一下我的 Slack。

Mind the Product.

注意产品。

Lenny: What are signs that the community you're in is good with your time?

莱尼：有哪些迹象表明你所在的社区很适合你的时间？

Something you should stick with versus like, "Nah, get out of there."

你应该坚持一些事情，而不是像“不，离开那里。”

Petra Wille: That is actually a good question.

Petra Wille：这实际上是一个好问题。

So I would say, if it helps you with networking, that is really something good if you meet nice, interesting people.

所以我想说，如果它能帮助你建立人际网络，那么如果你遇到了友善、有趣的人，那确实是件好事。

So that is one thing I would love to mention.

这是我想提的一件事。

And then if you're learning something new every now and then, maybe not every day, maybe not every week, but every now and then, there should be some real nuggets where you think, "Oh, this is making my life easier," or "This is super interesting.

然后，如果你时不时地学习一些新东西，也许不是每天，也许不是每周，但时不时地，应该有一些真正的金块让你想，“哦，这让我的生活更轻松”，或者“这太有趣了。

I would never ever have stumbled upon this thing without the community." So learning something new and then reflecting on how much you already learned about a certain topic or know about a certain topic, which is contributing to the community.

如果没有社区，我永远不会偶然发现这个东西。”因此，学习新的东西，然后反思你已经对某个主题了解了多少，或者对某个主题了解了多少，这对社区有贡献。

Petra Wille: You could be a community moderator, you could be somebody organizing some of the rituals, you could be somebody just sharing what you learned.

Petra Wille：您可以是社区管理员，您可以是组织一些仪式的人，您可以是只是分享您所学到的东西的人。

So I think that is something that could be in a good community that is possible at least to share that everybody's sharing and that there's mutual trust and then it's often just, if you enjoy being part of this community.

所以我认为这是一个良好社区中可以存在的东西，至少可以分享每个人的分享并且相互信任，然后如果你喜欢成为这个社区的一部分，那么这通常是公平的。

That's, I think, another super important thing to look into.

我认为，这是另一件需要研究的超级重要的事情。

Do you like the people there?

你喜欢那里的人吗？

Do you like to hang out with them?

你喜欢和他们一起出去玩吗？

Do you think they're kind, lovely human beings?

你认为他们是善良、可爱的人吗？

And is there some level of activity in the community because there's too many dead ones out there, more or less?

社区中是否存在一定程度的活动，因为那里或多或少有太多死者？

And I think these are the things that I, yeah, would use as a benchmark.

我认为这些是我会用作基准的东西。

Lenny: When you're talking about this, initially, I was just imagining online communities, but there's also, obviously, offline communities probably somewhere in your local city.

莱尼：当你谈论这个时，最初，我只是想象在线社区，但显然，在你当地城市的某个地方也可能存在线下社区。

Lenny: Yeah.

莱尼：是的。

So I think ...

所以我认为...

I don't know if people thought that when I was talking, but, yeah, there's probably meetups happening in your city with product managers that are meeting each other every week, every month maybe.

我不知道我说话时人们是否这么认为，但是，是的，您所在的城市可能会与产品经理举行聚会，他们每周甚至每月都会见面。

Lenny: That sounds awesome.

莱尼：听起来棒极了。

And I love your point about the why of the community versus a course versus reading lots of books.

我喜欢你关于为什么选择社区、课程、阅读大量书籍的观点。

It's really affordable to join some product community, especially if it's online.

加入一些产品社区确实很实惠，尤其是在线社区。

Lenny: And the ROI could be really high.

莱尼：投资回报率可能非常高。

Petra Wille: Yeah.

佩特拉·威尔：是的。

And it brings so much clarity in your thinking if you're sharing some things you learned with the community that this is a massive uptake as well, so give back.

如果你与社区分享你学到的一些东西，它会让你的想法变得更加清晰，这也是一个巨大的吸收，所以回报。

That really makes sense for you personally as well.

这对你个人来说也确实有意义。

Lenny: So you mentioned my Slack community.

Lenny：所以你提到了我的 Slack 社区。

So if folks don't know this and they're listening, basically, if you're a paid subscriber committees letter, you get access to the Slack and there's about 10,000 people in there, mostly PMs and founders and growth leaders, and it's pretty damn incredible.

因此，如果人们不知道这一点，但他们在听，基本上，如果你是付费订户委员会的信函，你就可以访问 Slack，那里大约有 10,000 人，其中大部分是产品经理、创始人和增长领导者，这真是令人难以置信。

It's probably the thing I'm most proud of of all the things I've done over the last few years around this newsletter and podcast.

这可能是我过去几年围绕这份时事通讯和播客所做的所有事情中最令我自豪的事情。

Lenny: And so if you're not in there, you should definitely check it out.

莱尼：所以如果你不在那里，你一定应该去看看。

It's thriving.

它正在蓬勃发展。

There's meetups happening all over the world every month.

每个月世界各地都会举办聚会。

There's a mentorship program, there's mastermind groups, all kinds of stuff.

有一个导师计划，有策划小组，各种各样的东西。

And you're familiar with it.

而且你很熟悉它。

And so I just wanted to ask you while I have you here, do you have any advice for how to make this community even more great?

所以我想问一下，您对如何让这个社区变得更加美好有什么建议吗？

Petra Wille: That is not an easy question.

Petra Wille：这不是一个简单的问题。

First of all, congratulations.

首先，恭喜你。

I really think it's a massive achievement to start such a community and to really have such a vibrant community because I know it takes a lot of energy investment at first to get it going and then a lot of energy to keep it on a certain level, so to say.

我真的认为建立这样一个社区并真正拥有一个如此充满活力的社区是一项巨大的成就，因为我知道首先需要大量的精力投入才能让它运转起来，然后需要大量的精力才能将其保持在一定的水平，可以这么说。

Petra Wille: Yeah.

佩特拉·威尔：是的。

What I found helpful is I have this community canvas that I use when I'm working with clients and some of these things require workshops to some extent.

我发现有用的是我在与客户合作时使用的社区画布，其中一些事情在某种程度上需要研讨会。

So it helps to reflect on what is the purpose of the community and that changes over time with the community members that are currently part of this community, right?

因此，这有助于反思社区的目的是什么，以及当前属于该社区的社区成员随着时间的推移而发生的变化，对吗？

So that is not a stable thing.

所以这不是一件稳定的事情。

So sometimes everybody has to pause for a second and then think about what is the purpose of this community, what are our values, and how will we define success?

所以有时候每个人都必须停下来思考一下这个社区的目的是什么，我们的价值观是什么，以及我们如何定义成功？

Petra Wille: It's pretty boring, I know, because it sounds so, so familiar with what we do in product management, but I think it applies for product communities as well.

Petra Wille：我知道这很无聊，因为这听起来非常非常熟悉我们在产品管理中所做的事情，但我认为它也适用于产品社区。

And then you need to find good rituals and rhythm, and you, Lenny, were already talking about some of the ones you are using.

然后你需要找到良好的仪式和节奏，而你，莱尼，已经在谈论你正在使用的一些仪式和节奏。

I know, for example, what Teresa is doing in her community.

例如，我知道特蕾莎在她的社区正在做什么。

I interviewed her this year, so there is a blog post on that online as well where she talks about what she tried, and what did work, and what did not work.

我今年采访了她，所以网上也有一篇博客文章，她在其中谈论了她尝试过的方法，以及哪些有效，哪些无效。

So I think that is important.

所以我认为这很重要。

Petra Wille: Then maybe not so important for your community.

Petra Wille：那么对于您的社区来说可能就不那么重要了。

Well, let's see.

好吧，让我们看看。

Let's discuss, let me hear what you think, which is incentives and sponsoring.

我们来讨论一下，让我听听你的想法，这就是激励和赞助。

So how do you, yeah, value contribution?

那么，你如何评价贡献呢？

Are you giving back?

你回馈吗？

Is it a kudos mechanism or is it something where people really earn badges of honor or earn time, earn more training budget.

这是一种荣誉机制，还是人们真正获得荣誉徽章或赢得时间、获得更多培训预算的东西。

That's what a lot of companies do, right?

很多公司都是这么做的，对吗？

If you're playing an active role in the community, then you get more training budget to spend or something like that, or they grant you time to do so.

如果您在社区中发挥积极作用，那么您将获得更多的培训预算或类似的费用，或者他们会给您时间这样做。

So if you say like, "Hey, I want to be part of this product community, could I travel a quarter or something like that because I want to go and see those people?" That is something that people do.

因此，如果您说，“嘿，我想成为这个产品社区的一部分，我可以出差四分之一或类似的时间吗，因为我想去看那些人？”这是人们做的事情。

So incentives and sponsoring, then it's roles.

所以激励和赞助，然后是角色。

And that will be interesting in your case as well.

这对你的情况也很有趣。

Is Lenny the center of the community?

莱尼是社区的中心吗？

Lenny: Yeah, I try really hard not to do that, actually.

莱尼：是的，事实上，我非常努力不这样做。

Lenny: That's a try to not be the beacon of all answers.

莱尼：这是为了不成为所有答案的灯塔。

The actual goal of the community was I will not have all the answers.

社区的实际目标是我不会得到所有答案。

Let's just bring a bunch of smart people together that are already there's this interesting filter of who pays for content about product and growth and stuff.

让我们把一群聪明的人聚集在一起，他们已经有了这个有趣的过滤器，可以确定谁为有关产品、增长等内容付费。

Lenny: Filter's really interesting.

莱尼：过滤器真的很有趣。

So the whole idea was get out of the middle of this thing and let people help each other and it's worked out really well.

所以整个想法就是摆脱这件事，让人们互相帮助，结果非常好。

Petra Wille: Yeah, because that's what I would say after doing all this research, it's not sustainable if the whole community is on the shoulders of one, two, three people.

Petra Wille：是的，因为这就是我在完成所有这些研究后要说的，如果整个社区都由一个、两个、三个人承担，那么这是不可持续的。

So you need to distribute the workload and you need to distribute this responsibility because sometimes even things like, yeah, policing the community is not a pleasant job.

所以你需要分配工作量，你需要分配这个责任，因为有时甚至像，是的，维护社区治安这样的事情也不是一件令人愉快的工作。

And if there's only one person dealing with all of these things, then it's not really community because then it's a bit organized like a company in this pyramid scheme.

如果只有一个人处理所有这些事情，那么它就不是真正的社区，因为它有点像金字塔计划中的公司一样组织起来。

Petra Wille: So I think more of it as circles, different circles of interest, and then building bridges between them because maybe not everybody in your community is interested in the same topics, but maybe they are the smaller circles of 10, 15 people interested in this one topic, 10, 15 people interested in this other topic.

Petra Wille：所以我认为更多的是圈子，不同的兴趣圈子，然后在它们之间建立桥梁，因为也许不是社区中的每个人都对相同的主题感兴趣，但也许它们是较小的圈子，由 10、15 个人对这个主题感兴趣，10、15 个人对另一个主题感兴趣。

You may be connecting the dots, you may be giving a bit of impulse and inspiration, but maybe other people are doing the exact same thing, sharing their best reads and their worthy to watch videos, and all these kind of things.

你可能会把这些点联系起来，你可能会给予一些冲动和灵感，但也许其他人也在做同样的事情，分享他们最好的读物和值得观看的视频，以及所有这些事情。

So content and curation, definitely, is another thing that you should think about and reflect on once in a while.

因此，内容和策展无疑是您应该偶尔思考和反思的另一件事。

Lenny: Cool.

莱尼：酷。

Thanks for the advice.

谢谢你的建议。

Curious is so important.

好奇心是如此重要。

Especially early on, I found keeping the signal to noise high always.

特别是在早期，我发现始终保持较高的信噪比。

And especially early on, it was a really prayerful.

尤其是在早期，这是一个非常虔诚的祈祷。

So there's a lot of focus detail oriented about it all.

因此，这一切都有很多以细节为导向的焦点。

Petra Wille: Yeah.

佩特拉·威尔：是的。

Plus, a lot of communities that I see use engagement as a success metric, and I'm actually not sure if this is a good success metric.

另外，我看到很多社区都使用参与度作为成功指标，但我实际上不确定这是否是一个很好的成功指标。

So as you say, signal versus noise is maybe the better success metric, which leads us the down the rabbit hole of how to .

正如你所说，信号与噪声可能是更好的成功衡量标准，这让我们陷入了如何做的困境。

But, yeah, engagement is maybe not the predominant success factor for a community.

但是，是的，参与可能不是社区成功的主要因素。

Lenny: Yeah, that's interesting.

莱尼：是的，这很有趣。

You also said it's a lot of work.

你也说工作量很大。

And just to give some shout-outs to folks that help me run this community that we have, I couldn't do this without them.

只是为了向那些帮助我管理这个社区的人们表示感谢，没有他们我就无法做到这一点。

Trey, who leads the community.

特雷，领导社区。

Keani who-

基尼谁——

Lenny: Keani curates the best conversations in the Slack every week and then shares them in this bonus email, Community Wisdom.

Lenny：Keani 每周都会在 Slack 中策划最佳对话，然后在这封奖励电子邮件“社区智慧”中分享它们。

Lenny: And then Ria, who's been helping out run the meetup program.

Lenny：然后是 Ria，她一直在帮助举办聚会项目。

And then Jess who's helping with our mentorship program and a few other things.

然后 Jess 正在帮助我们的指导计划和其他一些事情。

So that's the core team that helps this whole thing run.

这就是帮助整个事情运转的核心团队。

Thank you to them all.

感谢他们所有人。

Petra Wille: Thank you.

佩特拉·威尔：谢谢。

And it's super interesting that you're sharing that because companies often don't want to invest in, yeah, full-time community manager is maybe the wrong word because that not necessarily has to be a full-time role, but there need to be some people that really have a decent amount of time to invest in running this community because otherwise it's not working.

你分享的这一点非常有趣，因为公司通常不想投资，是的，全职社区经理可能是错误的词，因为这不一定是全职角色，但需要有一些人真正有足够的时间来投资运营这个社区，否则它就不起作用。

And I still think it is still cheaper than sending everybody to trainings and conferences all the time, and it has a lot of, yeah, ripple effects and network effects.

我仍然认为它仍然比一直派每个人参加培训和会议便宜，而且它有很多，是的，连锁反应和网络效应。

Lenny: Well, guess what, we've reached our very exciting lightning round.

莱尼：嗯，你猜怎么着，我们已经进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。

Lenny: So I'm going to ask you a few questions.

莱尼：所以我要问你几个问题。

Whatever comes to mind, let me know.

无论想到什么，请告诉我。

We'll go through it pretty fast.

我们会很快完成它。

Lenny: So ready.

莱尼：准备好了。

What are two or three books that you recommend most to other people?

您最向其他人推荐的两三本书是什么？

Petra Wille: The Art of Thinking Clearly by Dobelli.

佩特拉·威尔：多贝利清晰思考的艺术。

It talks about human biases in a really nice and illustrated way.

它以一种非常精彩且图文并茂的方式谈论了人类的偏见。

Then what I use a lot in my coaching practice, especially with senior executive, is Outcomes Over Output because it's a super strong concept, I'd say.

然后，我在教练实践中（尤其是对高级管理人员）经常使用的是“结果胜于输出”，因为我想说，这是一个非常强大的概念。

And then maybe I want to mention two books that are not yet written, but two concepts that I hope will make it into books, and one is Martin Eriksson's Decision Stack.

然后也许我想提两本尚未写成的书，但我希望有两个概念能写成书，一本是 Martin Eriksson 的决策堆栈。

And then there is another book about public speaking that hopefully might come out if some people are supporting it on Kickstarter.

然后还有另一本关于公开演讲的书，如果有人在 Kickstarter 上支持的话，这本书有望问世。

And that is called Present Yourself, a public speaking book.

这就是一本公开演讲的书“Present Yourself”。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

If you can sign a link to that, we'll include it also in the show notes.

如果您可以签署链接，我们也会将其包含在演出注释中。

Lenny: ...

莱尼：……

longest-ever show notes.

有史以来最长的演出笔记。

Speaking of that, what's another podcast that you love?

说到这里，您喜欢的另一个播客是什么？

Petra Wille: I love the Product Experience podcast.

Petra Wille：我喜欢产品体验播客。

And if you're able to speak German, then there is one that is called [foreign language 01:07:58].

如果你会说德语，那么有一种叫做[外语 01:07:58]。

That's a nice interview series.

这是一个很好的采访系列。

Lenny: [foreign language 01:08:02], I like that.

莱尼：[外语01:08:02]，我喜欢这个。

I do not speak German, but I thought it'd be fun to listen to, anyway.

我不会说德语，但我觉得听听还是很有趣的。

What's a favorite recent movie or TV show that you've enjoyed?

您最近最喜欢的电影或电视节目是什么？

Petra Wille: Maybe New Amsterdam.

Petra Wille：也许是新阿姆斯特丹。

I loved it.

我喜欢它。

That's actually a medical director, Matt, and he's finding very unconventional ways to solve problems and I think he's a great leader, so maybe that's a nice framing for watching the show.

这实际上是一位医疗主任马特，他正在寻找非常规的方法来解决问题，我认为他是一位伟大的领导者，所以也许这是观看该节目的一个很好的框架。

Lenny: What was it called?

莱尼：它叫什么名字？

New Amsterdam?

新阿姆斯特丹？

Lenny: Sweet.

莱尼：甜甜的。

What's a favorite interview question that you'd like to ask when you're interviewing folks?

当你面试别人时，你最喜欢问的面试问题是什么？

Petra Wille: Definitely the tell me about the last time.

Petra Wille：当然是告诉我上次的事情。

So tell me about a time when you did your last round of user interviews.

请告诉我您进行最后一轮用户访谈的一次经历。

Tell me about your last time when you onboarded a new colleague because I think as a user interviewing this, tell me about the last time you really, yeah, sparks nice conversations and interviews.

告诉我你上次入职新同事时的情况，因为我认为作为采访此问题的用户，请告诉我你上次真正，是的，引发愉快的对话和采访的情况。

Lenny: What are five SaaS tools or products that help you do the work that you do now?

Lenny：可以帮助您完成现在工作的五种 SaaS 工具或产品是什么？

And if there aren't enough of those, just great apps that you love right now.

如果这些还不够，那么您现在喜欢的优秀应用程序就足够了。

Petra Wille: I'm totally not into product management SaaS tool these days because as I'm just coaching people on hourly basis, I'm no longer the one looking into the SaaS tools they're using.

Petra Wille：我现在完全不喜欢产品管理 SaaS 工具，因为我只是按小时指导人们，我不再是研究他们正在使用的 SaaS 工具的人。

So that's quite a tough question.

所以这是一个很难回答的问题。

Things that I use a lot in my personal work is rather boring stuff like bookkeeping software and time tracking -

我在个人工作中经常使用的东西都是相当无聊的东西，例如记账软件和时间跟踪 -

Lenny: Which ones?

莱尼：哪些？

That's interesting.

那很有意思。

Petra Wille: Harvest is what I use for time tracking and bookkeeping, and I love that.

Petra Wille：Harvest 是我用来跟踪时间和记账的工具，我喜欢它。

It makes my life easier since a few years already.

几年来，它让我的生活变得更轻松。

And then, yeah, new banking apps that are coming up that I'm using for my accounts.

然后，是的，我正在为我的帐户使用的新银行应用程序即将推出。

One is Qonto, I think it's a German bank, but they really did a great job in the user experience, super seamless in the apps and all these kind of things.

一个是 Qonto，我认为这是一家德国银行，但他们在用户体验方面确实做得很好，应用程序和所有这些事情都非常无缝。

Yeah.

是的。

So that's two cool products that I love to use.

这是我喜欢使用的两种很酷的产品。

Lenny: Great.

莱尼：太好了。

Who else in the industry do you most respect as a thought leader, influencer-type person?

作为思想领袖、影响者型人物，您在行业中最尊敬的还有谁？

Petra Wille: As I'm a conference organizer as well for a conference that was called the Product Engage here in Hamburg, that is the super hard question for me to ask because so many people have been on that stage, that I would consider being a thought leader, they would maybe not consider them being a thought leader.

Petra Wille：由于我也是汉堡一次名为“产品参与”的会议的组织者，这对我来说是一个超级难问的问题，因为很多人都站在那个舞台上，我会考虑成为思想领袖，但他们可能不会认为自己是思想领袖。

I think the thought leader thing is pretty hard anyway, so there's so many different voices in our industry.

我认为思想领袖的事情无论如何都很难，所以我们行业中有很多不同的声音。

And I think looking at the guest list of your podcast actually is a very good start when you think about thought leaders and getting more inspirations because they are ones that we know and some hidden gems on there.

我认为，当你想到思想领袖并获得更多灵感时，查看播客的嘉宾名单实际上是一个非常好的开始，因为他们是我们所知道的，并且其中有一些隐藏的瑰宝。

Lenny: Great answer.

莱尼：很好的答案。

Great answer.

很好的答案。

Petra, thank you so much for doing this.

佩特拉，非常感谢你所做的一切。

We've hit the record on show note length, I guess, so that's a milestone.

我想，我们已经创下了表演笔记长度的记录，所以这是一个里程碑。

Congrats.

恭喜。

Petra Wille: Yes, thank you.

佩特拉·威尔：是的，谢谢。

Was a pleasure.

很高兴。

Lenny: Two final questions.

莱尼：最后两个问题。

Where can folks finding online if they want to learn more, reach out, maybe work with you and how can listeners be useful to you?

如果人们想了解更多信息、与您联系、也许与您合作，可以在哪里在线找到信息？听众如何对您有用？

Petra Wille: Ooh, interesting.

佩特拉·威尔：哦，有趣。

Yeah, the first one is easy, LinkedIn, Petra Wille, you can find me there.

是的，第一个很简单，LinkedIn、Petra Wille，你可以在那里找到我。

And then there is my website, Petra-W-I-L-L-E.com.

然后是我的网站 Petra-W-I-L-L-E.com。

That's my website.

那是我的网站。

And how can listeners be helpful to me?

听众如何对我有帮助？

Whew, that's a tough one.

哇，那是一件很难的事情。

I think it could be mutual beneficial if you are a product manager IC level and you would love to get better supported in your personal development and go by my book and just hand it to your manager, if that's appropriate.

我认为，如果您是 IC 级别的产品经理，并且您希望在个人发展方面获得更好的支持，并且按照我的书，将其交给您的经理（如果合适的话），这可能是互惠互利的。

Or just put it on their desk and just forget that it's there and hopefully they read it or something like that.

或者只是把它放在他们的桌子上，然后忘记它在那里，希望他们能读到它或类似的东西。

I think that is how I would love to answer the last question.

我想这就是我愿意回答最后一个问题的方式。

Lenny: Remind folks what the book is called and they can find on Amazon .

莱尼：提醒人们这本书叫什么名字，他们可以在亚马逊上找到。

Lenny: Strong Product People.

Lenny：强大的产品人员。

Go check it out on Amazon.

去亚马逊看看吧。

Lenny: Petra, thank you so much for doing this.

莱尼：佩特拉，非常感谢你这么做。

Lenny: Thank you so much for listening.

莱尼：非常感谢您的聆听。

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如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcast、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

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您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。