Peter Deng
Lenny Rachitsky: You built and led Facebook news feeds.
Lenny Rachitsky：您创建并领导了 Facebook 新闻源。
You shipped the Messenger app as its own app.
您将 Messenger 应用程序作为其自己的应用程序提供。
You launched ChatGPT Enterprise.
您启动了 ChatGPT Enterprise。
What's an important lesson you've learned about what it takes to succeed building something from idea to one to billions?
关于如何成功构建从一个想法到一个到数十亿的产品，您学到的重要教训是什么？
Peter Deng: You have to plan your chess moves out in advance.
邓彼得：你必须提前计划你的棋步。
You have to really think before you act and build systems that were going to let you go sustainably faster.
在行动之前你必须认真思考并构建能让你持续更快地前进的系统。
Lenny Rachitsky: What's the most counterintuitive lesson you've learned?
Lenny Rachitsky：您学到的最违反直觉的教训是什么？
Peter Deng: Sometimes your product actually doesn't matter.
Peter Deng：有时候你的产品其实并不重要。
At Uber, I learned this because, really, the price and the ETA at Uber was the product.
在 Uber，我了解到了这一点，因为实际上 Uber 的价格和预计到达时间就是产品。
Looking at it from a holistic perspective, we humans consume the entirety of the product.
从整体角度来看，我们人类消费了整个产品。
It's not to say that you shouldn't fix the bug, but it doesn't have as much of an impact as something that is more important to people.
这并不是说您不应该修复该错误，但它的影响不如对人们更重要的事情那么大。
Lenny Rachitsky: What's one specific thing you think will change in a big way with AI that people don't think enough about?
Lenny Rachitsky：您认为人工智能将带来重大改变但人们没有充分思考的具体事情是什么？
Peter Deng: Education is going to change.
邓彼得：教育将会改变。
My son, he was nine at the time, built a custom GPT that you can type in any topic and it would give you a sentence that had every letter of the English alphabet.
我的儿子当时九岁，构建了一个自定义 GPT，你可以输入任何主题，它会给你一个包含英文字母表中每个字母的句子。
Isn't that mind-blowing?
这不是令人兴奋吗？
I can already see his brain rewiring.
我已经可以看到他的大脑正在重新布线。
Lenny Rachitsky: What's one thing you look for in people you hire?
Lenny Rachitsky：您在雇用的人身上寻找的一件事是什么？
Peter Deng: In 6 months, if I'm telling you what to do, I've hired the wrong person.
Peter Deng：6 个月后，如果我告诉你该做什么，那我就雇错了人。
It helps me and the person operate on a different level where the goal is not, did you hit this OKR?
它帮助我和这个人在一个不同的层面上运作，而目标不是，你达到了这个 OKR 吗？
The Meta goal becomes, are we calibrating enough?
元目标变成了，我们的校准是否足够？
Are we actually getting into a spot where in 6 months you're the one telling me what needs to be done?
我们真的会陷入这样的境地吗？6 个月后你就是那个告诉我需要做什么的人？
Lenny Rachitsky: What's something you've learned about what it takes to be a great product person?
Lenny Rachitsky：关于如何成为一名优秀的产品人员，您学到了什么？
Peter Deng: I think there are five different types of product managers.
Peter Deng：我认为产品经理有五种不同类型。
Number one is-
第一个是——
Lenny Rachitsky: Today my guest is Peter Deng.
Lenny Rachitsky：今天我的嘉宾是 Peter Deng。
Peter is maybe the most under the radar impactful Product Leader that you have never heard of.
Peter 可能是您从未听说过的最具影响力的产品负责人。
I often say that the best product people are not the people on Twitter and LinkedIn sharing advice, but the people who don't have time to do that because they're too busy doing the work.
我经常说，最好的产品人员不是在 Twitter 和 LinkedIn 上分享建议的人，而是那些因为工作太忙而没有时间这样做的人。
Peter is the epitome of this.
彼得就是这一点的缩影。
He was VP of product at OpenAI where he oversaw product design and engineering for ChatGPT and helped ship ChatGPT Enterprise, voice, memory, desktop, custom GPTs and more.
他曾担任 OpenAI 的产品副总裁，负责监督 ChatGPT 的产品设计和工程，并帮助发布 ChatGPT Enterprise、语音、内存、桌面、自定义 GPT 等。
He also oversaw and built their first growth team.
他还监督并建立了他们的第一个增长团队。
He was the first Head of Product at Instagram where he worked closely with Mike and Kevin, and oversaw all product development, including on content sharing, ads, growth, even helped build out their design and user research functions.
他是 Instagram 的第一位产品主管，与 Mike 和 Kevin 密切合作，监督所有产品开发，包括内容共享、广告、增长，甚至帮助建立他们的设计和用户研究功能。
He was also a Head of the Rider product team at Uber where he oversaw everything in the Rider app, including big improvements to pickups and drop-offs at Uber Pool and airports.
他还是 Uber Rider 产品团队的负责人，负责监督 Rider 应用程序中的所有内容，包括对 Uber Pool 和机场的接送服务进行重大改进。
Lenny Rachitsky: He also helped the team launch new products including Uber Reserve, which is now approaching a $5 billion a year business.
Lenny Rachitsky：他还帮助团队推出了包括 Uber Reserve 在内的新产品，该公司目前的年业务规模已接近 50 亿美元。
He also spent nearly 10 years at Facebook as their 4th ever Product Manager where he built and led the team behind the current Newsfeed product, the standalone Messenger app, also photos, and groups, and homepage, and profiles.
他还在 Facebook 工作了近 10 年，担任 Facebook 的第四任产品经理，建立并领导了当前 Newsfeed 产品、独立 Messenger 应用程序、照片、群组、主页和个人资料背后的团队。
He was also Chief Product Officer at Airtable where he helped the company systemize how they built products and transitioned to Enterprise.
他还担任 Airtable 的首席产品官，帮助该公司系统化他们构建产品和过渡到企业版的方式。
He also led product management at Oculus.
他还领导 Oculus 的产品管理。
These days he is General Partner at Felicis where he is able to bring everything he's learned to more founders as an investor.
如今，他是 Felicis 的普通合伙人，能够将他所学到的一切作为投资者带给更多的创始人。
He has never done a podcast before or shared any of these lessons or stories publicly.
他以前从未做过播客或公开分享过任何这些教训或故事。
So, you are in for a real treat.
所以，您将享受到真正的享受。
Lenny Rachitsky: A huge thank you to Eric Antonow, Nick Turley, Lauren Motomati, Joanne Jain, and Sundeep Jain for contributing questions and topics.
Lenny Rachitsky：非常感谢 Eric Antonow、Nick Turley、Lauren Motomati、Joanne Jain 和 Sundeep Jain 提出的问题和主题。
This conversation, if you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube.
这段对话，如果您喜欢这个播客，请不要忘记订阅并在您最喜欢的播客应用程序或 YouTube 中关注它。
Also, if you become an annual subscriber of my newsletter, you get a year free of a bunch of amazing products including Bolt, Linear, Superhuman, Notion, Perplexity and Granola.
此外，如果您成为我的时事通讯的年度订阅者，您将获得一年免费的一系列令人惊叹的产品，包括 Bolt、Linear、Super human、Notion、Perplexity 和 Granola。
Check it out at lennysnewsletter.com and click bundle.
请访问 lennysnewsletter.com 查看并单击“捆绑”。
With that, I bring you Peter Deng.
接下来，我为您带来彼得·邓。
Many of you are building AI products, which is why I am very excited to chat with Brandon Foo, founder and CEO of Paragon.
你们中的许多人都在构建人工智能产品，这就是为什么我非常高兴与 Paragon 创始人兼首席执行官 Brandon Foo 聊天。
Hey Brandon.
嘿布兰登。
Brandon Foo: Hey Lenny.
布兰登·符：嘿莱尼。
Thanks for having me.
谢谢你有我。
Lenny Rachitsky: So, integrations have become a big deal for AI products.
Lenny Rachitsky：所以，集成对于人工智能产品来说已经成为一件大事。
Why is that?
这是为什么？
Brandon Foo: Integrations are mission-critical for AI for two reasons: First, AI products need contacts from their customer's business data such as Google Drive files, Slack messages or CRM records.
Brandon Foo：集成对于 AI 来说至关重要，原因有二：首先，AI 产品需要来自客户业务数据的联系人，例如 Google Drive 文件、Slack 消息或 CRM 记录。
Second, for AI products to automate work on behalf of users, AI agents need to be able to take action across these different third-party tools.
其次，为了使人工智能产品能够代表用户自动化工作，人工智能代理需要能够跨这些不同的第三方工具采取行动。
Lenny Rachitsky: So, where does Paragon fit into all this?
Lenny Rachitsky：那么，Paragon 在这一切中处于什么位置呢？
Brandon Foo: Well, these integrations are a pain to build, and that's why Paragon provides an embedded platform that enables engineers to ship these product integrations in just days instead of months across every use case from RAG data ingestion to a Agentic actions.
Brandon Foo：嗯，构建这些集成是一件痛苦的事情，这就是为什么 Paragon 提供了一个嵌入式平台，使工程师能够在短短几天而不是几个月的时间内交付这些产品集成，涵盖从 RAG 数据摄取到代理操作的每个用例。
Lenny Rachitsky: And I know from firsthand experience that maintenance is even harder than just building it for the first time.
Lenny Rachitsky：我从第一手经验中知道，维护比第一次建造它还要困难。
Brandon Foo: Exactly.
布兰登·符：没错。
And we believe product teams should focus engineering efforts and competitive advantages, not integrations.
我们认为产品团队应该专注于工程工作和竞争优势，而不是集成。
That's why companies like U.COM, AI21 and hundreds of others use Paragon to accelerate their integration strategy.
这就是 U.COM、AI21 和其他数百家公司使用 Paragon 来加速其集成战略的原因。
Lenny Rachitsky: If you want to avoid wasting months of engineering on integrations that your customers need, check out Paragon at useparagon.com/lenny.
Lenny Rachitsky：如果您想避免在客户所需的集成上浪费数月的工程时间，请访问 useparagon.com/lenny 查看 Paragon。
This episode is brought to you by Pragmatic Institute, the trusted leader in product expertise.
本集由值得信赖的产品专业领导者 Pragmatic Institute 为您带来。
Pragmatic Institute helps product professionals turn ideas into impact through proven courses, workshops and certifications designed for real-world success.
Pragmatic Institute 通过专为现实世界的成功而设计的经过验证的课程、研讨会和认证，帮助产品专业人士将想法转化为影响。
For over 30 years, they've trained more than 250,000 product leaders at companies like Google, Microsoft and Salesforce.
30 多年来，他们为 Google、Microsoft 和 Salesforce 等公司培训了超过 250,000 名产品领导者。
Equipping them with practical strategies to build and scale market-winning products.
为他们提供实用的策略来构建和扩展赢得市场的产品。
Lenny Rachitsky: Pragmatic's full-time instructors each bring over 25 years of hands-on leadership experience, teaching strategies proven to deliver real-world results.
Lenny Rachitsky：Pragmatic 的全职讲师均拥有超过 25 年的实践领导经验，其教学策略已被证明可以带来实际成果。
And it's not just about what you learn, it's also about who you learn it with.
这不仅与您学到什么有关，还与您和谁一起学习有关。
Completing a course connects you to an active community of over 40,000 product professionals.
完成课程后，您将接触到由 40,000 多名产品专业人士组成的活跃社区。
You'll engage in meaningful conversations, collaborate with peers and mentors, and gain direct instructor access to refine your strategies and stay ahead of trends.
您将参与有意义的对话，与同事和导师合作，并直接与讲师联系以完善您的策略并保持领先趋势。
Get 20% off with Code LENNY20 at pragmaticinstitute.com/lenny.
在 pragmaticinstitute.com/lenny 上使用代码 LENNY20 可享受 20% 的折扣。
Peter, thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast.
彼得，非常感谢您来到这里，欢迎来到播客。
Peter Deng: Thank you.
邓彼得：谢谢。
I'm so thrilled to be here, really honored.
我很高兴来到这里，真的很荣幸。
Looking forward to having a great time here.
期待在这里度过愉快的时光。
Lenny Rachitsky: As we were preparing for this conversation, we were jamming on what we should focus on.
Lenny Rachitsky：当我们准备这次谈话时，我们正在讨论我们应该关注的事情。
There's so much that we're going to talk about.
我们要讨论的事情太多了。
But something that you said was really interesting and I'm really excited to start with this, which is that, you've always felt that you haven't been able to say all the things you really think and feel because you've been within corporations, PR people keeping you on message, and this is the first time that you feel free to share.
但你说的一些事情真的很有趣，我真的很高兴能从这里开始，那就是，你一直觉得你无法说出你真正的想法和感受，因为你一直在公司里，公关人员让你保持信息，这是你第一次自由地分享。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, so first of all, just how does that feel?
Lenny Rachitsky：好的，首先，感觉如何？
Second of all, tell us something that you've been wanting to share or that you can finally talk about.
其次，告诉我们一些你一直想分享或者你终于可以谈论的事情。
Peter Deng: Well, it feels really good.
邓彼得：嗯，感觉真的很好。
So, let me ask...
那么，我问一下...
I love it that you're starting with a spicy question here and let me share some more context behind it.
我喜欢你在这里提出一个尖锐的问题，让我分享一下它背后的更多背景。
I'm here to speak more freely, but it's not really what you think.
我来这里是为了更自由地说话，但事实并非你所想的那样。
I'm not here to divulge any secrets from the companies.
我来这里不是为了泄露公司的任何秘密。
But naturally I'm kind of a storyteller, I'm kind of an introvert.
但我本质上是一个讲故事的人，我是一个内向的人。
So, this podcast, I feel like I have the ability to go deeper with you on any topic and kind of add the context.
因此，在这个播客中，我觉得我有能力与您深入探讨任何主题并添加上下文。
Because I think without some of the context, some of my spicy takes or whatnot might be taken out of context, and just not having the time pressure, not feeling like there's some PR message I have to hit, is just really freeing.
因为我认为如果没有一些背景，我的一些辛辣的观点或诸如此类的东西可能会被断章取义，而且没有时间压力，不觉得有一些我必须传达的公关信息，真的很自由。
So, it feels awesome, really anything that is on your mind that you should find interesting to your listeners, I'm here for it and yeah, I'm excited.
所以，感觉棒极了，真的任何你想到的、你应该对你的听众感兴趣的东西，我都是来这里的，是的，我很兴奋。
Lenny Rachitsky: Something I always tell guests, and I don't want people to take this out of context also, but I always describe myself as a reverse journalist where I want the guests to be the best version of themselves.
Lenny Rachitsky：我总是告诉客人一些话，我也不希望人们断章取义，但我总是将自己描述为一名反向记者，我希望客人成为最好的自己。
I never want to catch people off guard or just say something they never meant to say.
我不想让人们措手不及，或者只是说出他们本来不想说的话。
So-
所以——
Lenny Rachitsky: ...
莱尼·拉奇茨基：……
it's a safe space.
这是一个安全的空间。
Okay.
好的。
But still, is there anything that you want to share or that might be interesting to share that you've been wanting to share that you haven't been able to?
但是，还有什么是您想要分享的，或者是您可能感兴趣但一直想分享却未能分享的吗？
Is there anything along those lines?
有什么类似的事情吗？
Peter Deng: I mean, I always get this question around sort of, AGI, is it coming?
Peter Deng：我的意思是，我总是会问这样的问题：AGI，它会来吗？
Is it going to solve everything?
它会解决一切吗？
Peter Deng: I mean, it's so interesting because when I was at OpenAI, it was around the time that people were really scared of AI and, "Oh, it's going to get rid of humans or it's going to do all these things." But with every technology, I think everyone's been just kind of taking some time to acclimate to it.
Peter Deng：我的意思是，这很有趣，因为当我在 OpenAI 时，人们真的很害怕人工智能，并且“哦，它将摆脱人类，或者它将做所有这些事情。”但对于每一项技术，我认为每个人都需要一些时间来适应它。
And I think with AGI it's a similar thing, which is it's so far out that everyone's like, "Well, what's our world going to be like?" And the real answer is none of us really know.
我认为 AGI 也是类似的事情，它是如此遥远，以至于每个人都会想，“好吧，我们的世界会是什么样子？”真正的答案是我们谁都不知道。
But in terms of solving problems, I think some people believe AGI is going to solve everything, but I don't think so.
但就解决问题而言，我认为有些人认为 AGI 会解决一切问题，但我不这么认为。
AGI is just necessary but not sufficient.
AGI只是必要的，但还不够。
A lot of the value is still going to require a bunch of hustle from a lot of builders to really turn that new source of energy and channel it into something that we humans want to use that solves some of our problems.
许多价值仍然需要许多建设者的努力，才能真正将这种新能源转化为我们人类想要使用的东西来解决我们的一些问题。
And that hustle is going to be required, that elbow grease is going to be required to really make AGI something useful.
要让 AGI 真正变得有用，就需要这种努力、艰苦的努力。
Lenny Rachitsky: Your point is that people think AGI hits, all of a sudden all jobs are gone, AGI is doing everything.
Lenny Rachitsky：你的观点是，人们认为 AGI 会大受欢迎，突然间所有工作都消失了，AGI 正在做一切事情。
Because I think this is a optimistic message that things will be okay if AGI, basically AGI being, and I'm curious if you have a clear definition, but AGI being, AI being just basically as smart as humans-
因为我认为这是一个乐观的信息，如果通用人工智能，基本上是通用人工智能，我很好奇你是否有一个明确的定义，但是通用人工智能，人工智能基本上和人类一样聪明——
Peter Deng: ...
邓彼得：...
claim to be an expert on this at all, but I think that with every technology that's come out, we've been able to harness it and it takes a lot of harnessing.
声称自己是这方面的专家，但我认为，随着每一项技术的出现，我们已经能够利用它，并且需要大量的利用。
I think I'm going to use that word very deliberately.
我想我会非常慎重地使用这个词。
I'll use something really basic.
我会使用一些非常基本的东西。
What seems obvious today is that, there was a time when databases were all the rage.
今天看来显而易见的是，曾经有一段时间数据库风靡一时。
It's like, "Oh my goodness, you can store a bunch of data and you can query it really quickly and imagine all the possibilities." And I think that a lot of amazing entrepreneurs and builders built some really great products on top of databases.
就像，“天哪，你可以存储一堆数据，你可以快速查询它并想象所有的可能性。”我认为许多出色的企业家和建设者在数据库之上构建了一些非常出色的产品。
Peter Deng: In fact, that's kind of the basis of all the stuff that we're seeing today.
Peter Deng：事实上，这就是我们今天看到的所有内容的基础。
And it seems so obvious today, but I don't know, maybe in 10 years, 15 years when we look back, it's like, "Of course it made sense that we have this super intelligent thinking machine." But it requires the product builders to be able to go in there and say, "How do we channel this energy to make it something that we as humans love to use and want to use?"
这在今天看来是显而易见的，但我不知道，也许 10 年、15 年之后，当我们回首往事时，我们会觉得，“当然，我们拥有这个超级智能思维机器是有道理的。”但这需要产品制造商能够深入思考：“我们如何引导这种能量，使其成为我们人类喜欢使用并想要使用的东西？”
Lenny Rachitsky: I love the optimism around this.
Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢这方面的乐观情绪。
It's just like things will not go crazy once computers are as generally intelligent as humans.
就像一旦计算机像人类一样聪明，事情就不会变得疯狂。
Peter Deng: I think that's exactly what I'm trying to say.
邓彼得：我想这正是我想说的。
And I think that again, every technology people have this fear.
我再次认为，每个技术人员都有这种恐惧。
And I remember watching a documentary once and they were talking about how when the bicycle came out, people were like, "Oh my goodness, this is going to be the end of all things." And again, it sounds silly today.
我记得看过一部纪录片，他们谈论自行车问世时，人们会说，“天哪，这将是一切的终结。”再说一次，今天听起来很愚蠢。
Because you're like, "bicycles, really?" But then if you put yourself in the context and the mindset of a previous generation, which the next generation will be looking back at this podcast in that previous generation, I think that again, I think optimistically, things are going to be okay, we're going to adapt.
因为你会想，“真的是自行车吗？”但如果你把自己置于上一代人的背景和心态中，下一代人会回顾上一代人的播客，我认为，我乐观地认为，事情会好起来的，我们会适应。
And this was actually one of the things that I talked about with my friend Josh Constine at South by Southwest, is this idea that humans will always co-evolve with technology.
这实际上是我在西南偏南与我的朋友乔什·康斯坦谈论的事情之一，那就是人类将永远与技术共同进化。
And I think that that co-evolution is already happening.
我认为这种共同进化已经发生。
Peter Deng: If you take a look at, there was a lot of a fear of AI just when ChatGPT came out, but when you start to get familiar with it things, that kind of things change and then you are able to evolve from being fearful to familiar and to go all the way to having this mastery of this thing of like, "Oh my goodness, look at all the startups that are happening now.
Peter Deng：如果你看一下，当 ChatGPT 出现时，人们对人工智能有很多恐惧，但是当你开始熟悉它时，这种事情就会发生变化，然后你就能够从恐惧发展到熟悉，并一路走到掌握这个东西，就像，“天哪，看看现在正在发生的所有初创公司。
All the things that we can build.
我们可以建造的所有东西。
And just over 18 months." I would say we look back and there's been an attitude shift.
而且才 18 个月多一点。”我想说，我们回顾过去，态度发生了转变。
And so I guess part of my optimism comes from, if you look back 18 months and you look forward 18 months, might it be the same thing for something that we're chasing now?
所以我想我的乐观情绪部分来自于，如果你回顾 18 个月并展望 18 个月，我们现在正在追求的东西是否会是同样的事情？
Lenny Rachitsky: Well, let me follow this AI thread a little bit more and then we can move on to other things.
Lenny Rachitsky：好吧，让我再多关注一下这个人工智能主题，然后我们就可以继续讨论其他事情了。
I feel like every conversation, there's a time to AI conversation and then it's like, okay, there's other things that also matter.
我觉得每次对话都有一段时间与人工智能对话，然后就好像，好吧，还有其他事情也很重要。
So, let me ask you this, the question, what's one specific thing you think will change in a big way with AI that people don't think enough about?
那么，让我问你这个问题，你认为人工智能将会发生重大变化但人们没有充分思考的具体事情是什么？
Peter Deng: I think education is going to change in a big way.
邓彼得：我认为教育将会发生巨大的变化。
And I think a lot about this because I'm involved in my kid's school quite a bit, and that's something I've done after I left OpenAI.
我对此思考了很多，因为我经常参与我孩子的学校，这是我离开 OpenAI 后所做的事情。
And what's fascinating to me is that watching my son who got to dog food, a bunch of the OpenAI stuff before it was public, I think I can safely say that, that seems okay.
让我着迷的是，看着我的儿子在 OpenAI 公开之前就吃了狗粮，一堆 OpenAI 的东西，我想我可以有把握地说，这看起来还不错。
And when he was playing with ChatGPT and some of the latest models and he was nine at the time, I can already see his brain rewiring.
当他玩 ChatGPT 和一些最新模型时，当时他九岁，我已经可以看到他的大脑正在重新布线。
He was starting to ask questions and he never heard the word prompt before, but he's like, just this is how awesome the human mind is, because he was exposed to this technology at an early age, some things just are unlocked.
他开始提出问题，他以前从未听过“提示”这个词，但他想，这就是人类思维的真棒之处，因为他从小就接触过这项技术，有些东西就被解锁了。
And I think that you're able to think differently.
我认为你能够以不同的方式思考。
And I'll give you a specific example of what I mean here.
我将给你一个具体的例子来说明我在这里的意思。
Peter Deng: He goes to Python class and he's coding.
Peter Deng：他去上 Python 课并且正在编码。
Now, I don't actually think he's going to have to code when he grows up.
现在，我实际上并不认为他长大后就必须编写代码。
I think that's going to be a solved problem.
我认为这将是一个已解决的问题。
But it's a very valuable skill because I think learning to program is learning how to think in a structured way, in a systematic way.
但这是一项非常有价值的技能，因为我认为学习编程就是学习如何以结构化、系统的方式思考。
And he was prompting ChatGPT with some really crazy things that I never even thought of.
他用一些我从未想过的非常疯狂的事情来提示 ChatGPT。
And one of the things was, "Hey, ChatGPT, can you give me a sentence that has every letter in the alphabet along the theme of oceans or along the theme of space?"
其中一件事是，“嘿，ChatGPT，你能给我一个句子，其中字母表中的每个字母都以海洋或太空为主题吗？”
Peter Deng: And the reason this kind of blew my mind is because in traditional programming you couldn't write that program.
Peter Deng：这种让我震惊的原因是因为在传统编程中你无法编写该程序。
You can't say in Python like, "Oh, write a function that goes and formulate." I mean, it's a really difficult function to write.
你不能在 Python 中说：“哦，编写一个可以进行公式化的函数。”我的意思是，这是一个非常难写的函数。
But for him to be able to think of that prompt, which is really cool because he built a custom GPT that you can type in any topic and it would give you a sentence that had every letter of the English alphabet, kind of like the quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog.
但对于他来说，能够想到这个提示，这真的很酷，因为他构建了一个自定义的 GPT，你可以输入任何主题，它会给你一个包含英文字母表中每个字母的句子，有点像敏捷的棕色狐狸跳过懒狗。
Isn't that mind-blowing?
这不是令人兴奋吗？
Peter Deng: At age nine he could think about that, whereas being at age nine, I was playing with Legos and maybe QBasic.
邓彼得：九岁时他就可以考虑这个问题，而九岁时，我正在玩乐高积木，也许还有 QBasic。
And so this idea of how young human's brains will evolve because of this new tool we have is going to change the way I think we're going to do education.
因此，由于我们拥有的这个新工具，年轻人的大脑将如何进化的想法将改变我认为我们进行教育的方式。
And I'll be very honest, I'm not an expert in education, but I just thought a lot about it.
老实说，我不是教育方面的专家，但我只是想了很多。
And one thing I think is going to be really important in the future is being able to figure out how to ask the right questions.
我认为未来非常重要的一件事是能够弄清楚如何提出正确的问题。
We humans are inherently inquisitive.
我们人类天生好奇。
But being inquisitive and turning that into the right questions to prompt or ask AI, which is going to be again, something that everyone's going to have access to is going to be a differentiator for what kind of work can be done.
但保持好奇心，并将其转化为正确的问题来提示或询问人工智能，这将再次成为每个人都可以访问的东西，这将成为可以完成什么样的工作的差异化因素。
Peter Deng: The analogy I'll draw is, when the calculator was invented people didn't stop doing Math, they just did higher level Math.
Peter Deng：我打个比方，当计算器被发明时，人们并没有停止做数学，他们只是做更高层次的数学。
And it frees the mind up to do other things and think more at a higher level of abstraction.
它可以让你的思想解放出来，去做其他事情，并在更高的抽象层次上进行更多思考。
And I think we got to prepare our kids on thinking about, "Well, how do you think at a higher level of abstraction?" And this has happened before.
我认为我们必须让孩子做好思考的准备，“那么，你如何在更高的抽象层次上思考？”这种情况以前也发生过。
I think Google has made memory kind of obsolete.
我认为谷歌已经让内存变得过时了。
You don't have to memorize facts anymore, you can just Google it.
你不必再死记硬背，只需 Google 一下即可。
And the next phase will be something around, "Well code will just appear if you summon it." So, what are the things that people will think about and the skills we have to develop that are at the next level of abstraction, that tap into our creativity, that tap into our curiosity?
下一阶段将是“如果你召唤它，代码就会出现”。那么，人们会思考哪些事情以及我们必须发展哪些处于下一个抽象层次的技能，这些技能可以激发我们的创造力，激发我们的好奇心？
That's going to be really interesting.
那将会非常有趣。
So, I think education is going to change dramatically, just like how progressive education in the past switch from memorization of multiplication tables into something that's a little bit more kind of higher level, higher level thinking.
所以，我认为教育将会发生巨大的变化，就像过去进步的教育如何从记忆乘法表转变为更高层次、更高层次的思维一样。
And I think that's going to be one of those big areas.
我认为这将是那些大领域之一。
Lenny Rachitsky: This makes me think about an NPR story I was just listening to where they were following professors using ChatGPT to create their curriculum.
Lenny Rachitsky：这让我想起我刚刚听到的 NPR 故事，他们正在跟踪教授使用 ChatGPT 创建课程。
There was a lot of talk of students using ChatGPT, cheating, having ChatGPT write their essays.
有很多关于学生使用 ChatGPT、作弊、让 ChatGPT 写论文的讨论。
But teachers are using ChatGPT in a big way.
但教师们正在大量使用 ChatGPT。
And then students are raiding professors badly because they noticed they're using ChatGPT for their curriculum.
然后学生们开始猛烈攻击教授，因为他们注意到自己的课程使用了 ChatGPT。
So, it's kind of this arms race.
所以，这有点像军备竞赛。
Peter Deng: But it's also interesting because then that it goes further, it show further though.
邓彼得：但这也很有趣，因为它走得更远，它显示得更远。
The whole system has to change.
整个系统必须改变。
Because again, I still believe that human brains are inherently inquisitive and that we still need development in some way.
因为我仍然相信人类的大脑本质上是好奇的，并且我们仍然需要以某种方式发展。
But how that's going to develop, I'm fascinated to watch how that plays out.
但这将如何发展，我很想看看它会如何发展。
Lenny Rachitsky: I want to get back to product, but first of all, I know something that you think a lot about along these lines.
Lenny Rachitsky：我想回到产品，但首先，我知道一些你经常思考的事情。
This came up in many conversations I had with folks that you worked with.
我在与你共事的人的多次谈话中都提到了这一点。
Is your emphasis on the power and importance of language, being really good at thinking about the words you use both in writing and speaking.
您是否强调语言的力量和重要性，是否真正善于思考您在写作和口语中使用的词语？
Just talk about how you think about that, just the importance and power of language as a leader.
只需谈谈您对此的看法，以及语言作为领导者的重要性和力量。
Peter Deng: I remember taking this class that really stuck with me in college.
Peter Deng：我记得在大学时上过这门让我印象深刻的课程。
It was called Language and Thought.
它被称为语言和思想。
And it was taught by Herbert Clark.
它是由赫伯特·克拉克教授的。
And he had this thesis that kind of blew my mind, which is that, "Language actually affects the way you think." That's one of the parts of the thesis.
他的论文让我大吃一惊，那就是“语言实际上会影响你的思维方式。”这是论文的一部分。
And once I heard that and read that in his book and listened to the lecture, I couldn't stop thinking about that because it just rang so true.
当我在他的书中听到并读到这一点并听了讲座后，我无法停止思考这一点，因为它听起来是如此真实。
I grew up speaking Chinese and I think that there's a lot of things of just the Chinese language that I feel like I noticed, I thought differently when I learned English.
我从小就说中文，我觉得我注意到了中文的很多东西，当我学习英语时，我的想法有所不同。
And there were some studies around this too, I think that there's, I think in, I'm not sure exactly, I just have to go check up on this.
也有一些围绕这个问题的研究，我认为，我认为，我不太确定，我只需要去检查一下。
But I think in Russian there are two different words for blue, there's a greenish blue and a bright blue or something.
但我认为在俄语中，蓝色有两个不同的词，有绿蓝色和亮蓝色之类的。
Lenny Rachitsky: I speak Russian but it's like...
Lenny Rachitsky：我说俄语，但这就像......
I moved to the U.S. when I was 6 and so my Russian is not great.
我六岁时搬到了美国，所以我的俄语不是很好。
So, I'm trying to think of this as you say it, but keep going.
所以，我正在尝试按照你所说的方式思考这一点，但请继续。
Peter Deng: Well, so then this is great.
邓彼得：嗯，那就太好了。
So, I need to get a way to validate this.
所以，我需要找到一种方法来验证这一点。
But from what I remember, because there were these two different words for these different shades of blue Russian speakers who then learned English had an easier time distinguishing between these two shades of blue than, and a faster time doing so than people who had just grown up speaking English.
但据我所知，因为有这两个不同的词来表示不同深浅的蓝色，所以后来学习英语的俄罗斯人比刚长大说英语的人更容易区分这两种深浅的蓝色，而且区分得更快。
So, I read some studies over there.
所以，我在那里读了一些研究。
And also there's some other languages that don't actually have a word for blue, I think.
我认为还有一些其他语言实际上没有蓝色这个词。
And then that's actually really hard for them to distinguish over time.
随着时间的推移，他们实际上很难区分。
So, that really stuck with me and I think that it's kind of rings true.
所以，这真的让我印象深刻，我认为这是真的。
So, when I, how I put it in practice, is that when I make slide decks, I gave a presentation to a class a couple of weeks ago and there were probably a total of 20 words on the entire slide deck.
所以，当我在实践中，当我制作幻灯片时，几周前我向全班做了一个演示，整个幻灯片上可能总共有 20 个单词。
Peter Deng: And I spent hours obsessing over them because I really wanted to make sure I captured the right essence of what I was trying to say.
Peter Deng：我花了几个小时痴迷于它们，因为我真的想确保我抓住了我想说的内容的正确本质。
And I think that crafting is really important when you're working in product, because if you're sitting down and you're writing a vision doc or you're writing a PRD, and if you don't pay attention to the words you use, and you're not intentional about it, those have downstream effects.
我认为当你从事产品工作时，精雕细琢非常重要，因为如果你坐下来写愿景文档或 PRD，如果你不注意你使用的词语，并且你不是故意的，这些都会产生下游影响。
People might misinterpret things, the connotations may not actually come through.
人们可能会误解事物，其内涵可能无法真正表达出来。
And so I really am very careful about it because I think that there's a multiplicative effect and a downstream effect for using the wrong word.
所以我真的非常小心，因为我认为使用错误的词会产生乘法效应和下游效应。
And I really believe in that kind of language affecting thought thesis which is why I've just really, really paid attention to that.
我真的相信这种影响思想论文的语言，这就是为什么我非常非常关注这一点。
Lenny Rachitsky: Mm-hmm.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：嗯嗯。
Yeah.
是的。
And I feel like AI can help you with that too.
我觉得人工智能也可以在这方面帮助你。
Peter Deng: Well, actually, speaking of AI, actually that's a really interesting point.
Peter Deng：嗯，实际上，说到人工智能，实际上这是一个非常有趣的观点。
I think it's really interesting and kind of poetic and fitting that the breakthrough in artificial intelligence came from large language models.
我认为人工智能的突破来自于大型语言模型，这真的很有趣，而且有点诗意和贴切。
It's interesting to me because there is, with every word in every sentence so much of the knowledge is encapsulated and shaped.
这对我来说很有趣，因为每个句子中的每个单词都封装和塑造了很多知识。
And when ChatGPT does something really interesting, I tell people it's oftentimes just writing Python code and interpreting it.
当 ChatGPT 做一些真正有趣的事情时，我告诉人们它通常只是编写 Python 代码并解释它。
And Python is a language yet again.
Python 再次成为一种语言。
So, I think that there's something really interesting where like the condensation of human thought in language is related to the LLMs and the advancement scenario that we have today.
所以，我认为有一些非常有趣的事情，比如人类思想在语言中的浓缩与法学硕士和我们今天的进步场景有关。
Lenny Rachitsky: I think it was Ilya on a Dwarkesh's podcast where he was talking about, you may think LLMs are just like, "Oh, just predicting the next word, what's the big deal?" But in order to do that, it has to understand the universe and everything in the world that has ever happened and existed and everything anyone's ever written to predict the next word.
Lenny Rachitsky：我认为 Ilya 在 Dwarkesh 的播客中谈到了，你可能会认为法学硕士就像是，“哦，只是预测下一个单词，有什么大不了的？”但为了做到这一点，它必须了解宇宙和世界上曾经发生和存在的一切，以及任何人为预测下一个单词而写下的一切。
Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。
Okay.
好的。
So, let me zoom out a little bit and shift a little bit to just product in general.
所以，让我稍微缩小一下范围，稍微转向一下一般的产品。
Lenny Rachitsky: You've worked at and built some of those iconic products in history.
Lenny Rachitsky：您曾参与并打造过历史上的一些标志性产品。
You worked at OpenAI, Facebook, Uber a Head of Product at Instagram.
您曾在 OpenAI、Facebook、Uber 和 Instagram 担任过产品主管。
So, let me just ask you this question and see where this goes.
那么，让我问你这个问题，看看会发生什么。
What's the most counterintuitive lesson you've learned about building products or leading teams that goes against common wisdom?
关于构建违背常识的产品或领导团队，您学到的最违反直觉的教训是什么？
Peter Deng: I think one thing that, it's a really hard lesson that I learned at Uber, which is sometimes your product actually doesn't matter.
Peter Deng：我认为有一点是，这是我在 Uber 学到的一个非常惨痛的教训，有时你的产品实际上并不重要。
And by product I mean the pixels you put on the screen or things that you build in your mobile app.
我所说的产品是指您在屏幕上放置的像素或您在移动应用程序中构建的东西。
And at Uber, I learned this because, it pains me to say this, but really the price and the ETA at Uber was the product.
在 Uber，我了解到了这一点，因为我很难这么说，但实际上 Uber 的价格和预计到达时间就是产品。
And I think a lot of times people at tech companies think of the product as just this digital manifestation, but looking at it from a holistic perspective, we humans consume the entirety of the product.
我认为很多时候科技公司的人们认为产品只是这种数字表现形式，但从整体角度来看，我们人类消费了整个产品。
And I think that was one of the things that I learned, the lessons that I learned that was really kind of hard hitting, that sometimes the pixels don't matter as much as you think.
我认为这是我学到的事情之一，我学到的教训确实很沉重，有时像素并不像你想象的那么重要。
And you fix a certain bug, it's not to say that you shouldn't fix the bug, but it doesn't have as much of an impact as something that is more important to people like a price or ETA.
你修复了某个错误，并不是说你不应该修复该错误，但它的影响不如价格或预计到达时间等对人们更重要的东西。
Peter Deng: And this happens a lot in B2B products where it's not just about how...
Peter Deng：这种情况在 B2B 产品中经常发生，这不仅仅是关于如何......
It's great that your product is well-loved by its end users, but does it make good business sense?
您的产品深受最终用户的喜爱固然很好，但这是否具有良好的商业意义？
Is one of those hard lessons I learned as a very bright-eyed, bushy tailed sort of design-based product manager going into Uber.
这是我在进入 Uber 时所学到的惨痛教训之一。
I think the other insight that I had or other thought I had the other day was just the idea that so many of the tech companies today, this is kind of counterintuitive, so many of the tech companies that are most valuable today didn't really start with any technological breakthrough.
我认为我前几天的另一个见解或其他想法只是这样一个想法，即今天的许多科技公司，这有点违反直觉，今天许多最有价值的科技公司并没有真正从任何技术突破开始。
They were built on some kind of technological breakthrough and they ended up building a lot more technology.
他们建立在某种技术突破的基础上，最终开发出了更多的技术。
But really a lot of these companies, like Facebook for example, just put in the hard work, the elbow grease, especially in the early stages, to take essentially a database of human connections and build something valuable on top of it.
但实际上，很多这样的公司，比如 Facebook，只是付出了艰苦的努力，特别是在早期阶段，基本上建立了一个人际关系数据库，并在此基础上构建了一些有价值的东西。
Peter Deng: And that keep on polishing and iterating that product and coming up with new ones like newsfeed and photo tagging just kind of came out of just really paying attention to what people wanted.
Peter Deng：不断完善和迭代该产品，并推出新闻源和照片标签等新产品，只是真正关注人们想要什么。
And some of the ideas are super simple and it's not something that came out of the lab.
有些想法非常简单，而且不是实验室出来的。
So, Uber for example, took the fact that everyone had these GPS devices in their pockets, and they didn't invent the GPS device, but they were able to take that and the fact that people had cars, and people wanted to get around, and there was a human need, and they just connected the dots, and put everything together.
因此，以 Uber 为例，他们接受了每个人口袋里都有这些 GPS 设备的事实，他们没有发明 GPS 设备，但他们能够接受这一事实，以及人们拥有汽车、人们想要出行、存在人类需求的事实，他们只是将这些点连接起来，并将所有东西放在一起。
Peter Deng: And eventually, built a ton of tech to predict the right marketplace and pricing et cetera.
Peter Deng：最终，建立了大量技术来预测正确的市场和定价等。
But largely that's a very valuable tech company.
但很大程度上这是一家非常有价值的科技公司。
But it's largely an operations company.
但它主要是一家运营公司。
And I want to give a huge shout-out to my colleagues there who run Uber Eats and Uber Rides from operations perspective.
我想向从运营角度运营 Uber Eats 和 Uber Rides 的同事们表示大力赞扬。
Because truly that was one of the biggest business model hacks that I've seen.
因为这确实是我见过的最大的商业模式黑客之一。
And so I think that it's Silicon Valley it gets lost a lot.
所以我认为硅谷经常迷失方向。
It's like, "Oh, this is a new tech company." Oftentimes some of the most valuable ones are just the ones that are just building what people need on top of existing tech.
就像，“哦，这是一家新技术公司。”通常，一些最有价值的技术只是在现有技术的基础上构建人们需要的技术。
Lenny Rachitsky: There's so much to say here.
Lenny Rachitsky：这里有很多话要说。
I love it.
我喜欢它。
And this is coming from someone that led the Uber Rider product team and worked at Facebook and a Head of Product at Instagram.
这是来自 Uber Rider 产品团队的领导者、Facebook 的产品主管和 Instagram 的产品主管。
It means a lot coming from someone like you, not someone that's not in product especially.
这对像你这样的人来说意义重大，而不是那些不参与产品的人。
Peter Deng: Yeah, I mean, just to go further on the Instagram part, the idea was super simple.
Peter Deng：是的，我的意思是，就 Instagram 而言，这个想法非常简单。
It was showing photos and visual sharing.
它正在展示照片和视觉分享。
But the craft that Mike and Kevin had in putting in the hard work to get the product just right, that's what made it really take off.
但迈克和凯文付出的努力让产品恰到好处，这才是它真正腾飞的原因。
That's a great example.
这是一个很好的例子。
I had forgotten about Instagram, but how could I?
我已经忘记了 Instagram，但我怎么能忘记呢？
But it wasn't anything that any other company couldn't have done, but it was that product taste that Kevin and Mike had and conviction that there's a certain sort of vibe, if you will, that people wanted, and building that and iterating, and look at it now, it's a core part of our lives.
但这并不是任何其他公司做不到的事情，而是凯文和迈克所拥有的产品品味，以及相信人们想要的某种氛围，如果你愿意的话，构建这种氛围并进行迭代，现在看看它，它是我们生活的核心部分。
Visual sharing, they really solved it.
视觉分享，他们确实解决了这个问题。
Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, I just had Mike Krieger on the podcast.
Lenny Rachitsky：是的，我刚刚在播客上邀请了 Mike Krieger。
So, it's interesting, there's two tensions here.
所以，有趣的是，这里有两种紧张关系。
One is just the product doesn't matter in a lot of really successful companies.
一是产品在很多真正成功的公司中并不重要。
It's secondary to the cars, the drivers, the GPS and the phone.
它的重要性仅次于汽车、驾驶员、GPS 和电话。
And then on the other hand, there doesn't need to be a technological breakthrough to build a huge business.
另一方面，不需要技术突破来建立庞大的业务。
It's almost like if there's no technological breakthrough, then the product matters.
就好像如果没有技术突破，那么产品就很重要了。
Facebook is an example.
脸书就是一个例子。
Basically, it's like a database of connections, but what allowed an Instagram, what allowed them to breakthrough, and there's classically competitors at the time.
基本上，它就像一个关系数据库，但是什么让 Instagram 得以实现，是什么让他们取得突破，而且当时也有典型的竞争对手。
Was the experience, was it a lot better?
是不是体验好很多了？
And then maybe on the flip side, if the experience doesn't matter, then it's the breakthrough is on the operations and other...
也许另一方面，如果体验不重要，那么突破就在于运营和其他方面……
Does that resonate?
这引起共鸣吗？
Is that kind of what you're saying?
你是这么说的吗？
Peter Deng: It does resonate.
邓彼得：确实引起了共鸣。
I think both have to be true.
我认为两者都必须是正确的。
But also I would say that even if you did found a company that has a huge technological breakthrough.
但我还要说，即使你确实找到了一家拥有巨大技术突破的公司。
Very shortly, I think that the product experience will start mattering, because how long does that technological advantage last before humans wisen up to be like, "Well, this is not the product I want to use.
很快，我认为产品体验将开始变得重要，因为这种技术优势能持续多久，人们才会意识到，“好吧，这不是我想使用的产品。
I use it a little bit differently and this is more ergonomic for me?" Et cetera.
我的使用方式有点不同，这对我来说更符合人体工程学？”等等。
So, I think that what you said is a beautiful summary.
所以，我认为你所说的是一个很好的总结。
I also think that a point in time in a company's history will also determine what is going to be more important.
我还认为，公司历史上的某个时间点也将决定什么更重要。
Lenny Rachitsky: This is, especially, interesting for companies building on top of LLMs and AI infrastructure, where you're essentially saying, you don't need to have some kind of technological breakthrough to build something valuable if you can create a really special, unique experience that unlocks the potential of this super intelligence.
Lenny Rachitsky：对于建立在法学硕士和人工智能基础设施之上的公司来说，这尤其有趣，你本质上是说，如果你能够创造一种真正特殊、独特的体验来释放这种超级智能的潜力，那么你不需要有某种技术突破来构建有价值的东西。
Peter Deng: I think that's right.
邓彼得：我认为是对的。
And I have some more thoughts on just sort of the companies that are building on top of LLMs that are just...
我对那些建立在法学硕士基础上的公司有更多的想法，这些公司只是......
That's a slightly different thing I would say.
我想说的是略有不同的事情。
I think that for them, having the right data, and that right data flywheel's is so important.
我认为对他们来说，拥有正确的数据和正确的数据飞轮非常重要。
Lenny Rachitsky: Like proprietary data especially.
Lenny Rachitsky：尤其喜欢专有数据。
Peter Deng: Exactly.
邓彼得：没错。
And the flywheel part is just, you can start with proprietary data, but the flywheel is really just sort of how do you continue to maintain that and generate that.
飞轮部分只是，您可以从专有数据开始，但飞轮实际上只是您如何继续维护并生成它。
And the second thing is, again, it's the workflow.
第二件事是工作流程。
So, it's the ergonomics of how does it actually integrate into people's lives?
那么，它是如何真正融入人们生活的人体工程学呢？
And that is going to be more and more important.
这将变得越来越重要。
Lenny Rachitsky: Well, let's actually spend more time there because a lot of people are thinking about this.
Lenny Rachitsky：好吧，让我们实际上花更多时间在那里，因为很多人都在考虑这个问题。
It feels like everybody's trying to start a company these days with AI enabling so much more.
感觉现在每个人都在尝试创办一家人工智能能实现更多功能的公司。
And so I think a lot of people are just curious, where should they spend time?
所以我想很多人只是好奇，他们应该把时间花在哪里？
And so I think this is actually really interesting.
所以我认为这实际上非常有趣。
So, what I'm hearing here is two things to think about to create any kind of moat, defensibility against, say, foundational models coming to your lunch or in other companies.
因此，我在这里听到的是创建任何类型的护城河时需要考虑的两件事，例如针对你的午餐或其他公司的基础模型的防御性。
What sort of data can you acquire that is proprietary and create a flywheel to generate more of that data?
您可以获得哪些类型的专有数据并创建飞轮来生成更多此类数据？
And then the other piece is how do you fit into a very specific, basically, vertical that you understand really well that fits into their existing workflow?
然后另一部分是你如何融入一个非常具体的、基本上是你非常了解的垂直领域，并且适合他们现有的工作流程？
Is that...?
那是……？
I'm probably right.
我可能是对的。
Peter Deng: Yeah.
邓彼得：是的。
Well, it's, again, this is something we can unpack for a long time.
好吧，这又是我们可以长期解开的东西。
Because with any product that you want to build, there's going to be incumbents that have distribution advantages.
因为对于您想要构建的任何产品，都会有具有分销优势的现有产品。
But I do have this thesis that there are certain-
但我确实有这样的论点：
Peter Deng: ...
邓彼得：...
have distribution advantages, but I do have this thesis that there are certain products that will be able to break through those advantages of the distribution of the other companies, but you have to overcome a pretty high bar of your product has to be so much better.
有分销优势，但我确实有这样的论点，即某些产品将能够突破其他公司的分销优势，但你必须克服相当高的标准，你的产品必须要好得多。
I think that's one thing.
我认为这是一回事。
Peter Deng: But yeah, I think that data flywheel thing is really interesting because the models will get really good at whatever data you show it, and that's one of the things that people just think that AI is such a magic wand.
Peter Deng：但是，是的，我认为数据飞轮真的很有趣，因为无论你展示什么数据，模型都会变得非常擅长，这就是人们认为人工智能是一根魔杖的原因之一。
But no, it's like if it's been trained on the right data, it's going to do the thing that it's been trained on.
但不，就像如果它接受了正确的数据训练，它就会做它所训练的事情。
It's very malleable.
它的可塑性很强。
Peter Deng: Being very mindful of the data that you have access to to start your flywheel going and what you can do to keep on going with that flywheel is going to be a critical thing for anyone who's starting a company today.
Peter Deng：对于今天创办公司的任何人来说，非常注意启动飞轮所需的数据以及可以采取哪些措施来继续推动飞轮将是至关重要的事情。
Lenny Rachitsky: Let's make that even more specific.
Lenny Rachitsky：让我们说得更具体一些。
When you talk about this, I think about...
当你谈到这个问题时，我想到...
The CEO of Windsurf was on the podcast and we talked a lot about how they've all this really unique data about which recommendations of code snippets people accept and reject and they actually launched their model I think based on that.
Windsurf 的首席执行官在播客上，我们谈论了很多关于他们如何拥有所有这些真正独特的数据，这些数据关于人们接受和拒绝哪些代码片段的建议，并且我认为他们实际上基于此推出了他们的模型。
Is that example?
是这个例子吗？
Any other examples to make this real?
还有其他例子可以证明这一点吗？
That's a perfect example.: There's some companies I've invested in that aren't public yet that have their own take on that, which is really interesting to be able to take whatever activity is in their product to get smarter at the thing that they are doing, again, which is why I think the data flywheel and the workflow goes so hand in hand together, because if you are solving something actually valuable for businesses, for people, and there's a lot of that attention that's being paid to, a lot of work is being done through it, you're going to have that edge.
这是一个完美的例子。：我投资的一些公司还没有上市，他们对此有自己的看法，这真的很有趣，能够利用他们产品中的任何活动，让他们正在做的事情变得更聪明，这就是为什么我认为数据飞轮和工作流程如此紧密地结合在一起，因为如果你正在解决一些对企业、对人们来说真正有价值的事情，并且有很多关注正在被关注，那么大量的工作正在完成通过它，你就会拥有这种优势。
That's a perfect example.: This is where I see again startups in very different markets who have this insight, who understand this very deeply, and are not just trying to zero shot everything and be like, "No, no, no. This is how we're going to build it to make the product genuinely useful so that it can get genuinely more useful over time."
这是一个完美的例子。：在这里，我再次看到来自不同市场的初创公司拥有这种洞察力，他们对此有着深刻的理解，他们不仅仅是试图将一切都归零，然后说：“不，不，不。这就是我们构建它的方式，使产品真正有用，这样随着时间的推移，它才能真正变得更有用。”
That's a perfect example.: That is going to be amazing because as a consumer of any of these products, we're going to benefit.
这是一个完美的例子。：这将是令人惊奇的，因为作为任何这些产品的消费者，我们都会受益。
Lenny Rachitsky: What I'm hearing here is also if you don't have proprietary data or unique data, you can still have a chance by building this flywheel where you collect that data through your usage.
Lenny Rachitsky：我在这里听到的是，如果您没有专有数据或独特数据，您仍然有机会构建这个飞轮，通过使用来收集这些数据。
Lenny Rachitsky: For example, Windsurf, if they all built on Claude 3.5 and then now they have all this unique data and now they're launching their models.
Lenny Rachitsky：例如，Windsurf，如果他们都基于 Claude 3.5 构建，那么现在他们拥有所有这些独特的数据，现在他们正在推出他们的模型。
That's exactly right.: This goes back to something I might've mentioned briefly, but you got to have grit when you're building anything.
完全正确。：这可以追溯到我可能已经简要提到过的事情，但是当你构建任何东西时，你必须有勇气。
You got to be able to have that vision, have that clear direction, and be able to really go chase that.
你必须能够有这样的愿景，有明确的方向，并且能够真正去追逐它。
I think that's really important.
我认为这非常重要。
Lenny Rachitsky: To make your example of distribution being overcomable, a great example I think a lot about, and we had CPO, turns out there's many CPOs at Microsoft, I didn't realize how many CPOs they had, and I asked her about, "Why didn't Copilot..." The fastest growing companies in the world, Cursor, Windsurf, Lovable, Bolt, all these guys.
Lenny Rachitsky：为了让你的发行版例子变得可克服，我经常思考一个很好的例子，我们有 CPO，结果微软有很多 CPO，我不知道他们有多少 CPO，我问她，“为什么 Copilot 没有……”世界上发展最快的公司，Cursor、Windsurf、Lovable、Bolt，所有这些人。
Copilot was so ahead of these companies and these companies broke through.
Copilot 如此领先于这些公司，而这些公司也取得了突破。
Lenny Rachitsky: While Microsoft has distribution, amazing talent, infrastructure, all the things, early first mover advantage and it's to your point, they were just building products that were much better, Cursor, Windsurf, all these, Lovable, Bolt.
Lenny Rachitsky：虽然微软拥有分销、令人惊叹的人才、基础设施、所有的东西、早期的先发优势，这对你来说很重要，但他们只是在开发更好的产品，Cursor、Windsurf，所有这些，Lovable、Bolt。
Peter Deng: I do believe there is a level of product craft that will make it so that it's just worth it to switch or try something else.
Peter Deng：我确实相信一定程度的产品工艺可以使其值得转换或尝试其他东西。
There are a few products out there that I see with this.
我看到有一些产品与此相关。
I think Granola is one of them.
我认为格兰诺拉麦片就是其中之一。
Peter Deng: There's so many distribution advantages that Google Meet has, that Google, Facebook started off, Microsoft Teams has, Zoom has, but they're just these tiny little product craft delightful things that I really appreciate myself of like, "Yeah, they got it."
Peter Deng：Google Meet 拥有如此多的分销优势，Google、Facebook 都拥有，Microsoft Teams 也有，Zoom 也有，但它们只是这些微小的产品工艺令人愉悦的东西，我真的很感激自己，“是的，他们明白了。”
Peter Deng: They have these little edges, set it down just right, and they've really figured out a way to really make it so delightful that it's like, "Yeah, I will install this piece of software.
Peter Deng：他们有这些小边缘，把它设置得恰到好处，他们真的找到了一种方法，让它变得如此令人愉快，就像，“是的，我会安装这个软件。
Yes, 100% I will talk to my friends about this because it is so life-changing."
是的，我 100% 会和我的朋友谈论这件事，因为它改变了我的生活。”
Peter Deng: We're starting to see that now.
Peter Deng：我们现在开始看到这一点。
Again, before, I would say 18 months ago, it's like, "Oh, well, who has the best model?" But then coming forward, it's like really who has the best workflow and who has the best product, and we humans are just demanding.
再说一次，我想说的是 18 个月前，就像是，“哦，好吧，谁拥有最好的模特？”但接下来，就好像谁拥有最好的工作流程，谁拥有最好的产品，而我们人类只是要求很高。
We want the best.
我们想要最好的。
And so when someone is going to come out and produce something that's so well-crafted, I think people are going to pay attention.
因此，当有人要出来制作出如此精心制作的东西时，我认为人们会关注。
Lenny Rachitsky: A couple of takeaways here is if you're trying to build an AI startup, a few things you should be thinking about that gives you a better chance of breaking through and winning is what are your data flywheels where you collect proprietary unique data, how do you build something the craft comes through and people are wowed and want to tell their friends about it.
Lenny Rachitsky：这里有一些要点是，如果你想建立一家人工智能初创公司，你应该考虑一些能让你更好地突破和获胜的机会的事情，那就是你的数据飞轮是什么，你可以在其中收集专有的独特数据，你如何构建一些东西，让人们惊叹并想告诉他们的朋友。
Lenny Rachitsky: Granola is a great example.
Lenny Rachitsky：格兰诺拉麦片就是一个很好的例子。
Clearly, Cursor, Lovable, Bolt, Rep, all these guys did that and then it feels like they just understand a vertical workflow really well and someone's problem and solve that in a really unique way.
显然，Cursor、Lovable、Bolt、Rep，所有这些人都这样做了，然后感觉他们非常了解垂直工作流程和某人的问题，并以一种非常独特的方式解决它。
Peter Deng: Yeah.
邓彼得：是的。
I couldn't have put it better myself.
我自己说得再好不过了。
Awesome.: Let me ask you, this came up in my chat with Mike at Anthropic and it's along these lines.
太棒了。：让我问你一下，这是我在 Anthropic 与 Mike 聊天时提出的，是这样的。
I was thinking about just what is product doing at Anthropic.
我在想 Anthropic 的产品到底在做什么。
Awesome.: They're building this basically a gigabrain super intelligence thing that's going to know everything and maybe build its own experience in the future.
太棒了。：他们正在构建一个基本上是一个超级智能的东西，它会知道一切，并且可能在未来建立自己的经验。
And then there's this product team building this layer on top to interact with this super intelligence gigabrain.
然后，这个产品团队在顶部构建了这一层，以便与这个超级智能的超级大脑进行交互。
Peter Deng: What is the point?
邓彼得：重点是什么？
What is the value of that layer?
该层的价值是多少？
Lenny Rachitsky: You spoke to it a bit here of just there's value in the experience and feeling native, but I guess let me just ask you that.
Lenny Rachitsky：你在这里谈到了体验和本土感觉的价值，但我想让我问你这个问题。
Just where do you think product goes at a company like Anthropic, OpenAI where there's just the super intelligence that the team is working on and there's this UX on top?
你认为像 Anthropic、OpenAI 这样的公司的产品会走向何方，那里的团队正在开发超级智能，而且最重要的是用户体验？
Peter Deng: I think those companies have just such an advantage because you get to work in the same building as the researchers.
Peter Deng：我认为这些公司有这样的优势，因为你可以和研究人员在同一栋大楼里工作。
I think that there's that really symbiotic relationship, close partnership between post training and product where, again, more and more it's going to be less about the raw intelligence, it's going to be about the fine tuning of what the model can do that really resonates with people and what people want and also what the product trajectory is going to be.
我认为，培训后和产品之间存在着真正的共生关系，紧密的伙伴关系，其中，原始智能将越来越少，而将是对模型可以做什么进行微调，真正与人们产生共鸣，人们想要什么，以及产品轨迹将是什么。
I think that you're going to see that more and more.
我想你会越来越多地看到这种情况。
Peter Deng: I think this is less about Anthropic but more about OpenAI.
Peter Deng：我认为这不是关于 Anthropic，而是更多关于 OpenAI。
I think OpenAI made a great move.
我认为 OpenAI 迈出了伟大的一步。
Peter Deng: I am a huge Fidji fan.
Peter Deng：我是 Fidji 的超级粉丝。
As soon as that news leaked that she was going to join, I texted her.
她要加入的消息一传出，我就给她发了短信。
I was like, "This is great.
我当时想，“这太棒了。
Amazing.
太棒了。
Congratulations."
恭喜你。”
Peter Deng: I'm thrilled for her, for the company, for all of my friends still at OpenAI because it's just going to be this amazing leader coming in.
Peter Deng：我为她、为公司、为我所有仍在 OpenAI 的朋友感到兴奋，因为即将有一位出色的领导者加入。
Peter Deng: I'm also thrilled as a consumer because some great products are going to come out.
Peter Deng：作为消费者，我也很兴奋，因为一些很棒的产品即将问世。
Peter Deng: I think really that close, tight-knit relationship at any of these large model companies between post training and product is going to produce some really incredible stuff.
Peter Deng：我真的认为，任何一家大型模型公司在后期培训和产品之间的密切、紧密的关系将会产生一些非常令人难以置信的东西。
Lenny Rachitsky: First of all, Mike actually said very similar things that the more-
莱尼·拉奇茨基：首先，迈克实际上说了非常相似的话，而且更多-
Peter Deng: I promise you I did not watch that podcast.
邓彼得：我向你保证我没有看那个播客。
It hasn't even come out yet so I believe you.: Yeah.
它甚至还没有出来，所以我相信你。：是的。
He had this interesting finding where he put product people on UX product experience front-facing product and then he put PMs on the research teams and building models, helping models get better, helping researchers build things, and he found that all the leverage and wins came from the PMs working with the researchers, much less so on the product experience.
他有一个有趣的发现，他将产品人员安排在面向前端产品的用户体验产品体验上，然后将产品经理安排在研究团队中并构建模型，帮助模型变得更好，帮助研究人员构建产品，他发现所有的影响力和胜利都来自与研究人员合作的产品经理，更不用说产品体验了。
And so he puts more and more PMs with that team.
因此他在该团队中安排了越来越多的产品经理。
Peter Deng: I'm so thrilled to hear that because that's a little bit...
Peter Deng：听到这个消息我很兴奋，因为这有点......
It's very validating because that's what we did at OpenAI too.
这是非常有效的，因为这也是我们在 OpenAI 所做的。
We were very closely tied to the post training team and it was because of that tight collaboration that you see some of the advances of ChatGPT getting better at so many things.
我们与后期培训团队联系非常紧密，正是由于这种紧密的合作，您才能看到 ChatGPT 在很多方面取得了进步。
It's great.
这很棒。
It's awesome that we independently came to the same conclusion.
我们独立得出了相同的结论，真是太棒了。
Yes.
是的。
It's a good sign.: Okay, so we're talking about startups, building new companies.
这是一个好兆头。：好的，我们正在谈论初创公司，建立新公司。
I want to follow this thread a little bit.
我想稍微关注一下这个线程。
Lenny Rachitsky: I feel like you've built more products from zero to one to scale than maybe most anyone else across all the companies that you've worked at.
Lenny Rachitsky：我觉得你从零到一的规模化生产的产品可能比你工作过的所有公司中的大多数人都多。
I'm going to do a quick rundown of some of the things you've done and I'm going to miss a bunch but let's see.
我将快速总结一下您所做的一些事情，我会错过很多事情，但让我们看看。
Lenny Rachitsky: You built and led the Facebook Newsfeed, the current version of it.
Lenny Rachitsky：您创建并领导了 Facebook Newsfeed（当前版本）。
You built the new groups experience chat and messages.
您构建了新的群组体验聊天和消息。
You shipped the Messenger app as its own app.
您将 Messenger 应用程序作为其自己的应用程序提供。
That was one of your projects.
那是你的项目之一。
Lenny Rachitsky: You led UberPool low-cost rides.
Lenny Rachitsky：您领导了 UberPool 低成本乘车服务。
You launched ChatGPT Enterprise.
您启动了 ChatGPT Enterprise。
You shipped voice and vision, memory, custom GPTs, just refreshing the whole design of ChatGPT.
您交付了语音和视觉、内存、自定义 GPT，刷新了 ChatGPT 的整体设计。
Many more things.
还有很多事情。
A lot of work at Airtable obviously.
显然，Airtable 做了很多工作。
Also, Oculus.: These are just some examples in the intro.
另外，Oculus：这些只是介绍中的一些示例。
I'm going to try to go through all these things.
我将尝试完成所有这些事情。
A lot of work at Airtable obviously.
显然，Airtable 做了很多工作。
Also, Oculus.: All that to say, I feel like you've seen a lot of what works and doesn't work, building from idea from zero essentially to one to scale.
另外，Oculus：总而言之，我觉得你已经看到了很多有效和无效的方法，从零到一的想法，再到规模化。
So let me just ask you this question, what's an important lesson you've learned about what it takes to succeed building something from idea to one to billions?
那么，让我问你这个问题，关于如何成功地构建从一个想法到一个到数十亿的东西，你学到了什么重要的教训？
Peter Deng: Yeah.
邓彼得：是的。
Thank you.
谢谢。
That was a good trip down memory lane too when you read that off.
当你读到它时，这也是一次美好的回忆之旅。
Peter Deng: I think the first thing I would say, going from zero to one is different going from one to 100.
邓彼得：我想我要说的第一件事是，从零到一和从一到100是不同的。
When you are in the one to 100 phase, which is a lot of the time that I spent is the one to 100 phase, we quadruple Instagram usage in two years, that was very much a fun ride and there's a bunch of other examples at other companies.
当你处于从 1 到 100 的阶段时，我花了很多时间在从 1 到 100 的阶段，我们在两年内将 Instagram 的使用率增加了四倍，这是一个非常有趣的过程，其他公司还有很多其他例子。
Peter Deng: But when you go to one to 100, I think one of the things that you really got to take into account is that you have to plan your chess moves out in advance.
邓彼得：但是当你以一比一百的时候，我认为你真正需要考虑的事情之一是你必须提前计划你的棋步。
You have to really think before you act and build systems that are going to let you go sustainably faster, because the zero to one is you're trying to find that product market fit and then when you get to one to 100, you're trying to make sure you can get to hyperscale as fast as you can.
在采取行动并构建能让你持续更快地发展的系统之前，你必须认真思考，因为从零到一是你试图找到适合市场的产品，然后当你达到一到 100 时，你试图确保你能够尽快实现超大规模。
Peter Deng: I've been very fortunate to be along the ride of many of these products as they were going through that hyperscale.
Peter Deng：我非常幸运能够参与其中许多产品的发展历程，因为它们正在经历超大规模的发展。
And the analogy I always like to use is that when you do that, you feel the G-forces.
我总是喜欢使用的类比是，当你这样做时，你会感受到重力。
Some people are like, "Oh, yeah, I'm a pilot, I can fly at 35,000 feet." But feeling the G-forces of takeoff of a rocket is very different.
有些人会说，“哦，是的，我是一名飞行员，我可以飞到 35,000 英尺的高度。”但火箭起飞时感受到的重力却截然不同。
Peter Deng: One thing that I've learned there doing that a few times is you got to build the systems that help you move sustainably faster, and sometimes, you have to go slow to go fast.
Peter Deng：我在那里学到的一件事是，你必须构建能够帮助你持续更快地前进的系统，有时，你必须放慢速度才能走得快。
Here's an example.: In building the Newsfeed, the current version that we have today, it really hasn't changed much from the time that we built it, I don't even know, it was like 12 years ago or something, I don't know the reason why it hasn't changed much.
这是一个例子：在构建 Newsfeed 时，我们今天拥有的当前版本，从我们构建它的时候起，它确实没有太大变化，我什至不知道，就像 12 年前什么的，我不知道为什么它没有太大变化。
Here's an example.: But I like to think that it's because we put a lot of time and craft into thinking about the whole sharing loop and what are the key pieces of it and how is it architected, what's the information architecture, and what does that whole flow look like, how does it go from posting something at the top of the page to showing up in the newsfeed to someone clicking like and then that notifications thing lighting up red and then that repeating over and over again.
这是一个例子。：但我喜欢认为这是因为我们投入了大量的时间和技巧来思考整个共享循环，它的关键部分是什么，它是如何构建的，信息架构是什么，整个流程是什么样的，从在页面顶部发布内容到显示在新闻源中，再到有人点击“喜欢”，然后通知内容亮起红色，然后一遍又一遍地重复，它是如何进行的。
Here's an example.: I like to think that Newsfeed has stood the test of time, the current version of it, because we thought very carefully about how people wanted to interact and how people wanted to consume information and also, that whole loop.
这是一个例子：我认为 Newsfeed 的当前版本经受住了时间的考验，因为我们非常仔细地考虑了人们想要如何互动、人们想要如何消费信息以及整个循环。
When that happens, then I think things are built to last.
当这种情况发生时，我认为一切都是为了持久。
I think this is a case at a lot of different companies.
我认为这是很多不同公司的情况。
Here's an example.: When I was at Uber, we had a bit of a spaghetti string code situation on the writer app, but taking a step back and re-architecting things of what are the core components and how do you actually make it so that the product selector can scale around the world.
这是一个例子：当我在 Uber 时，我们在编写器应用程序上遇到了一些意大利面条字符串代码的情况，但退后一步并重新架构核心组件是什么以及如何实际构建它，以便产品选择器可以在世界范围内扩展。
Here's an example.: Here's a little known fact.
这是一个例子：这是一个鲜为人知的事实。
Talk about grit and elbow grease.
谈论砂砾和苦劳。
Here's an example.: Uber's not just as simple as finding a ride.
这是一个例子： Uber 不仅仅是找车那么简单。
If you've ever been to another country, like in India, sometimes, there are no street signs, so you have to pick up in front of this mini mart or whatever it might be.
如果您去过另一个国家，例如印度，有时没有街道标志，因此您必须在这个迷你超市或其他任何地方前面取货。
There's a whole team that worked on pickup and drop-offs.
有一个完整的团队负责接送服务。
This was a large effort.
这是一个巨大的努力。
Here's an example.: It sounds so boring but it was so critical to Uber being able to scale because pickup and drop-offs team thought about, "Well, how do you do it for venues?" That venues and finding that right abstraction means that you can have a scalable way to do pickups at airports and configure different venues.
举个例子：这听起来很无聊，但这对于 Uber 的规模扩张至关重要，因为接送团队会考虑，“那么，你如何在场地上做到这一点？”该场地并找到正确的抽象意味着您可以采用可扩展的方式在机场接载并配置不同的场地。
Here's an example.: Those systems when you take the time to build them in the one to 100 phase help you speed up massively and that's how you get 4x users in two years.
这是一个例子：当您花时间在 1 到 100 阶段构建这些系统时，它们可以帮助您大幅加快速度，这就是您在两年内获得 4 倍用户的方式。
Here's an example.: Or on Messenger, we put a lot of thought into the infrastructure around push notifications, etc. We grew that product from zero to 4.7 billion messages sent per day in about two and a half years.
这里有一个例子：或者在 Messenger 上，我们在推送通知等基础设施上投入了大量的精力。我们在大约两年半的时间里将该产品从每天发送的消息数从零增加到了 47 亿条。
I think it really requires that forethought in building the right systems.
我认为在构建正确的系统时确实需要深思熟虑。
Lenny Rachitsky: Let me follow that thread real quickly because that's really interesting.
Lenny Rachitsky：让我快速关注该主题，因为这真的很有趣。
Lenny Rachitsky: Essentially, what you're saying is there's a phase of once you find product market fit, and I want to actually ask you this before you start planning, when you're starting to scale going from one to a hundred, your advice here is basically don't move fast and break things.
Lenny Rachitsky：本质上，你所说的是，一旦你发现产品适合市场，我想在你开始计划之前问你这个问题，当你开始从 1 扩大到 100 时，你的建议基本上是不要快速行动并打破常规。
Don't ship MVPs.
不要交付 MVP。
This is the time to really think many chess moves ahead about what you're going to need to get this to, say, a billion users.
现在是时候真正思考要采取哪些行动才能将其推广到（比如说）10 亿用户。
Peter Deng: Yeah, yeah.
邓彼得：是的，是的。
It's building the systems and then that systems thinking will carry you really far, or at least that's been my experience and hopefully, you can find the same way but your biology may vary.
它正在构建系统，然后系统思考将带你走得很远，或者至少这是我的经验，希望你能找到相同的方法，但你的生物学可能会有所不同。
But yeah, that's exactly right.
但是，是的，这是完全正确的。
Lenny Rachitsky: What's your guidance on just when to do that?
Lenny Rachitsky：您对何时这样做有何指导？
Because you build something, okay, well it's working, there's also this just like, "Okay, let's just keep it going, let's scale it as far as we can." In your experience, is it...
因为你构建了一些东西，好吧，它正在工作，还有这样的情况，“好吧，让我们继续下去，让我们尽可能地扩展它。”根据你的经验，是不是...
Just what's the guidance on when to really step back and really think years and years ahead?
关于何时真正退一步并真正思考未来的指导是什么？
Great question.: The first thing I'll say is that it's not a binary switch.
很好的问题。：我要说的第一件事是它不是二进制开关。
It's actually a ramp rate.
这实际上是一个斜坡率。
Great question.: When I've led teams, I've always believed strongly in this portfolio approach.
很好的问题。：当我领导团队时，我一直坚信这种组合方法。
Famously, Google had the 70-20-10 portfolio approach.
众所周知，谷歌采用了 70-20-10 的投资组合方法。
That may be the right thing for a more mature company, maybe it's 50/50 if you're a startup, but you have to think about this in a non-binary way and in a way, that's about scaling up and when do you need to put more resources behind that.
对于一家更成熟的公司来说，这可能是正确的事情，如果你是一家初创公司，也许是 50/50，但你必须以非二元的方式思考这个问题，在某种程度上，这就是扩大规模，以及何时需要在其背后投入更多资源。
Great question.: Every startup is going to be different.
好问题：每家初创公司都会有所不同。
Every product that you're launching is going to be different.
您推出的每一款产品都会有所不同。
And then thinking about your portfolio approach and how much you allocate your time that would be my advice.
然后考虑一下你的投资组合方法以及你分配了多少时间，这就是我的建议。
It's really dependent on the stage that you're in.
这实际上取决于你所处的阶段。
Great question.: I think that actually is a nice dovetail to my second thing, if I may, which is when you're going from that stage of maybe one to five or one to 10, so not just fully one to 100, one thing I found to be very helpful is to measure everything.
很好的问题。：我认为这实际上与我的第二件事很好地吻合，如果可以的话，那就是当你从一到五或一到十的阶段，所以不仅仅是完全从一到一百，我发现非常有帮助的一件事是衡量一切。
Great question.: This sounds, again, very simple but just like how you wouldn't fly a plane without instruments, why would you run your products without understanding the instrumentation and how it's doing.
很好的问题。：这听起来又非常简单，但就像没有仪器就无法驾驶飞机一样，为什么要在不了解仪器及其工作原理的情况下运行产品。
Great question.: One of the things I did in pretty much all the teams that I led, whether it was Instagram, Uber, Airtable, was all about...
很好的问题。：我在我领导的几乎所有团队中所做的事情之一，无论是 Instagram、Uber、Airtable，都是关于……
ChatGPT too.
也聊天GPT。
Great question.: One of the first things I did was always to build a growth team.
好问题。：我做的第一件事就是建立一支成长团队。
Great question.: Building a growth team is really interesting because it actually is a simple razor, it's a simple thing to think about.
很好的问题。：建立一个增长团队真的很有趣，因为它实际上是一把简单的剃刀，这是一件容易思考的事情。
It's like, "I'm going to build a growth team," but then you're going to uncover a lot of things.
这就像，“我要建立一个增长团队”，但随后你会发现很多事情。
Great question.: You're going to uncover how much stuff you have not yet logged and how non-rigorous you've been looking at your entire product.
好问题。：您将发现您尚未记录多少内容以及您对整个产品的审视是多么不严格。
Great question.: It's so funny because I've seen this movie so many times, the same movie so many times that every one of these companies where I remember walking into Instagram and I think asking Kevin and Mike, "So how many users do we have?" It's like, "Well, we don't really know." And so it's like, "Well, there are a lot and we don't really know."
很好的问题。：这很有趣，因为我已经看过这部电影很多次了，同一部电影看了很多次，以至于我记得走进 Instagram 的每一家公司都会问凯文和迈克，“那么我们有多少用户？”就像是，“好吧，我们真的不知道。”所以这就像是，“嗯，有很多，但我们真的不知道。”
Great question.: When you build a growth team and you hire the right growth leader, I've had the pleasure of working with George Lee at Instagram, some of the early growth folks at Facebook, Andrew Chen at Uber, Airtable.
很好的问题：当你建立一支增长团队并聘请合适的增长领导者时，我很高兴与 Instagram 的 George Lee、Facebook 的一些早期增长人员、Uber 和 Airtable 的 Andrew Chen 合作。
I had the privilege of working with Lauryn, who is currently now leading growth at Notion.
我有幸与 Lauryn 一起工作，她目前正在领导 Notion 的发展。
I've been very fortunate to work with some really amazing people on my team.
我非常幸运能够与我的团队中一些非常出色的人一起工作。
Great question.: When you hire the right person, they start asking all the right questions because when the archetype of person who is a growth PM will be like, "Well, wait.
很好的问题。：当你雇用合适的人时，他们会开始问所有正确的问题，因为增长型产品经理的原型会是这样的：“好吧，等等。
Why is this happening?
为什么会发生这种情况？
And let's get the data on X, Y and Z thing." That's when you realize you don't have X, Y, and Z thing logged and after you have X, Y, and Z thing logged, you look at the data, you're like, "Wait.
让我们获取 X、Y 和 Z 方面的数据。”当你意识到你没有记录 X、Y 和 Z 的数据时，在记录了 X、Y 和 Z 的数据后，你查看数据，你会想，“等等。
Well, why is that happening?" And then you're forcing yourself to go deeper into the analysis of doing some analysis of like, "Well, what's correlated with what and what are some hypotheses?"
嗯，为什么会这样呢？”然后你强迫自己更深入地进行一些分析，比如“嗯，什么与什么相关，什么是一些假设？”
Great question.: Because growth leaders, growth product leaders are so into this experimentation side, it actually is this really easy thing to do is when you start building a growth team, it just begets all of the right questions being asked and then it starts turning into all the right behaviors of taking something you've been building, which seems like it's working into a more rigorous system.
很好的问题。：因为增长领导者、增长产品领导者非常热衷于这个实验方面，所以实际上这是一件非常容易做的事情，当你开始建立一个增长团队时，它只会产生所有被问到的正确问题，然后它开始转变为你一直在构建的东西的所有正确行为，这似乎正在进入一个更严格的系统。
Great question.: That's zero, sorry, the one to 10 phase I would say that really sets you up for the 10 to 100.
很好的问题。：抱歉，这是零，我想说的是，从 1 到 10 的阶段确实为 10 到 100 做好了准备。
Lenny Rachitsky: What I like about this growth team advice is that a lot of people think of a time to hire a growth team to we need to drive growth.
Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢这个增长团队建议的一点是，很多人认为我们需要聘请增长团队来推动增长。
What you're saying is there's a lot of second order benefits, which is they help you figure out what the hell's going on and inform a lot of other things that are happening, people just actually understanding how things are going.
你所说的是有很多二阶好处，那就是它们可以帮助你弄清楚到底发生了什么，并告知许多其他正在发生的事情，人们只是真正了解事情的进展情况。
Totally.: I think that the reason why growth team is the advice I would go with rather than to build an analytics team is because if you build an analytics team or a data science team, it's possible that no one's going to listen to them.
完全地。：我认为我之所以选择增长团队而不是建立分析团队的建议，是因为如果你建立一个分析团队或数据科学团队，可能没有人会听他们的意见。
It's like, "Oh, I have these insights." It's like, "Well, no one really cares."
就像，“哦，我有这些见解。”就像，“好吧，没有人真正关心。”
Totally.: But if you hire a growth leader, they are now tied to outcomes of driving growth, so they're going to be the ones who are listening and asking more questions and really partnering with that data science team to make your entire product and business more rigorous.
完全可以。但是，如果你聘请了一位增长领导者，他们现在与推动增长的结果息息相关，因此他们将是那些倾听并提出更多问题并真正与数据科学团队合作的人，以使你的整个产品和业务更加严谨。
That just changes the DNA of your entire team.
这只会改变整个团队的 DNA。
Lenny Rachitsky: I want to talk about hiring, but is there anything else along these lines that you want to share of building new products, scaling products?
Lenny Rachitsky：我想谈谈招聘，但是在构建新产品、扩展产品方面，您还有什么想分享的吗？
Peter Deng: I guess the last thing I would say is I want to make sure that sometimes in the pursuit of numbers, product folks lose sight of the importance of taste and craft.
Peter Deng：我想我要说的最后一件事是我想确保有时在追求数字的过程中，产品人员忽视了品味和工艺的重要性。
Maybe this is actually the dovetail into building teams, but you got to have the counterbalances.
也许这实际上是建立团队的契合点，但你必须有平衡点。
Peter Deng: It's really important to give two people on your team different charges.
Peter Deng：给团队中的两个人赋予不同的职责非常重要。
One is like go grow the product and the other one is wait, maintain that design, that beautiful aesthetic, the craft that your product is known for.
一种是去种植产品，另一种是等待，保持你的产品闻名的设计、美丽的美学和工艺。
That tension is extremely healthy.
这种紧张是非常健康的。
I've seen this at Facebook.
我在 Facebook 上看到过这个。
I've seen this in Instagram.
我在 Instagram 上看到过这个。
I helped create this at Instagram, this healthy tension.
我在 Instagram 上帮助创造了这种健康的紧张气氛。
Airtable, same thing, but just having...
Airtable，同样的事情，但只是......
ChatGPT, same exact thing.
ChatGPT，同样的事情。
Peter Deng: You have to have that push and pull on both sides to really stretch the gamut.
Peter Deng：你必须双方都进行推拉才能真正扩展范围。
Lenny Rachitsky: That begs the question, how do you actually do that?
Lenny Rachitsky：这就引出了一个问题，你实际上是如何做到这一点的？
You could talk about it, you could be like, "Okay, we need to make sure the experience is awesome but also grow this number.
你可以谈论它，你可以说，“好吧，我们需要确保体验很棒，但也要增加这个数字。
Here's your goal." How do you operationalize that?
这就是你的目标。”你如何实施它？
Is it a performance review?
是绩效考核吗？
Attribute thing?
属性的东西？
Is it culture or something else?
是文化还是其他什么？
Peter Deng: As a leader, you have to set up your team the right way.
邓彼得：作为一个领导者，你必须以正确的方式组建你的团队。
You have to really think about your team as a product and what are the various pieces you need to really stretch the gamut of what you're thinking about.
你必须真正将你的团队视为一个产品，以及你需要哪些不同的部分来真正扩展你正在思考的范围。
Peter Deng: The teams that I've helped build are...
Peter Deng：我帮助建立的团队是......
The most successful ones are a team of Avengers that are just very different, have very different superpowers, but together you as the leader are the one who's helping adjudicate any differences or any disagreements but you know you're getting the best outcome when everyone's pulling and obsessing over a different thing.
最成功的是一支由非常不同的复仇者组成的团队，拥有非常不同的超能力，但作为领导者，你在一起帮助裁决任何分歧或任何分歧，但你知道当每个人都在努力和痴迷于不同的事情时，你会得到最好的结果。
And that's important.
这很重要。
Peter Deng: It's important to create your balance and really increase the space that you're looking at and create those healthy debates.
Peter Deng：重要的是要创造你的平衡，真正扩大你所关注的空间并创造那些健康的辩论。
Peter Deng: I think a lot of people overlook that.
邓彼得：我想很多人都忽视了这一点。
I think some people think of people on a team as warm bodies to do a job, but my philosophy has always been to think about, "Well, what does the company need to be successful and who's the best person who spikes at that one thing and how do I make sure that we get that person and how do we make sure we get the other person and the other person?"
我认为有些人认为团队中的人是完成工作的温暖人，但我的理念一直是思考，“公司需要什么才能成功，谁是在这件事上表现最好的人，我如何确保我们得到那个人，我们如何确保我们得到另一个人和另一个人？”
Peter Deng: It's almost like you're playing an RPG where everyone has different sliders and you have to create this super team where everyone actually spikes in different ways.
Peter Deng：这几乎就像你在玩一款角色扮演游戏，每个人都有不同的滑块，你必须创建这个超级团队，每个人实际上都以不同的方式达到峰值。
Peter Deng: That is something that I've had a lot of success with in terms of when you create that environment and you create that vibe, you're going to get a lot of mileage out of that team.
Peter Deng：我在这方面取得了很大的成功，当你创造出这样的环境和氛围时，你将从团队中获得很多成果。
Lenny Rachitsky: That is a really interesting answer.
Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个非常有趣的答案。
It's not one I've heard before.
这不是我以前听说过的。
Essentially, it's not create the right incentives, it's hire people that naturally see the world in a certain way and that creates a balance and a healthy tension between say a PM and a designer and an engineer.
从本质上讲，它不是创造正确的激励措施，而是雇用那些自然地以某种方式看待世界的人，并在产品经理、设计师和工程师之间创造平衡和健康的紧张关系。
Lenny Rachitsky: That is really interesting because that feels a lot more sustainable than like, "Here's your goal.
Lenny Rachitsky：这真的很有趣，因为这感觉比“这是你的目标”更可持续。
But also when your goal is make sure the experience is great and people support tickets are down." It's just like naturally, they need to want this to happen.
但当你的目标是确保体验很棒并且人们的支持票减少时。”就像很自然地，他们需要希望这一切发生。
Totally.: Actually, I have a framework around...
完全：实际上，我有一个框架......
I think there are five different types of product managers that has held true.
我认为有五种不同类型的产品经理是正确的。
Totally.: This is a framework that just came out of a random jam at Uber when I was talking to some of my colleagues there.
完全。：这是一个框架，是我在 Uber 与一些同事交谈时随机出现的一个框架。
We formulated this in terms of helping with hiring practices.
我们从帮助招聘实践的角度制定了这一点。
Totally.: Everywhere I've gone, I've also been best friends with the recruiters because honestly my whole thing is got to build the right team.
完全：无论我走到哪里，我都与招聘人员成为最好的朋友，因为老实说，我的全部工作就是建立合适的团队。
So we have to really partner very deeply.
所以我们必须真正深入地合作。
Totally.: At Uber, we developed these five archetypes of a PM.
完全：在 Uber，我们开发了这五种 PM 原型。
To this day, I still think it's actually exactly true and it still holds true to this day, but is that interesting?
直到今天，我仍然认为这确实是正确的，而且至今仍然有效，但这有趣吗？
You want me to go into that?
你想让我讲一下吗？
Lenny Rachitsky: Absolutely.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：当然。
I'm so excited to hear what these are.
我很高兴听到这些是什么。
Peter Deng: These are the five that I've found to be most enduring and actually the most different.
Peter Deng：这是我发现最持久且实际上最不同的五个。
Peter Deng: When you talk about...
邓彼得：当你谈论...
I love the way you put this, Lenny, which is when you hire the right people and they're naturally motivated by different things.
我喜欢你的说法，莱尼，当你雇用合适的人时，他们自然会受到不同事物的激励。
These are the five that we came up.
这是我们提出的五个。
Peter Deng: Number one is the consumer PM.
Peter Deng：第一是消费者产品经理。
This is the person that's half designer, half product person, really obsessed over the details.
这是一个半设计师、半产品人的人，真正着迷于细节。
"Is it delightful?
“令人愉快吗？
Is it crafted enough?
做工够不够？
Oh my goodness, this is three pixels off.
天哪，这差了三个像素。
I can't stand it.
我受不了了。
This is driving me nuts.
这让我抓狂。
Why is this so complex?" These are the people that you think of as sometimes the criticism PM is the consumer PM, but that's just one type.
为什么事情这么复杂？”这些人有时你会认为批评者 PM 是消费者 PM，但这只是其中一种类型。
Peter Deng: Another type, just on the other side we've talked about before, is the growth PM.
邓彼得：另一种类型，就在我们之前讨论过的另一面，是增长型PM。
These people are half data scientist, half product person, they are wired to think numbers first and they have this air about them that's like the best ones do, which is like, "I'm really skeptical.
这些人一半是数据科学家，一半是产品人员，他们天生就会首先思考数字，而且他们身上有一种像最优秀的人一样的气质，就像是，“我真的很怀疑。
Show me the data.
给我看看数据。
Let's run a test and prove it.
让我们进行一个测试并证明这一点。
I don't believe you." I start with these two in the framework because they're actually really different.
我不相信你。”我从框架中的这两个开始，因为它们实际上非常不同。
One, it's like, "I have vibe, I feel the vibe, this is better," and the other one's like, "No. I don't believe you.
一种是，“我有氛围，我感觉到这种氛围，这更好，”另一个是，“不，我不相信你。
We should test this and prove it." That's a really healthy tension.
我们应该对此进行测试并证明这一点。”这是一种非常健康的紧张情绪。
Peter Deng: I love having two people in a room debating that.
邓彼得：我喜欢两个人在一个房间里讨论这个问题。
I'm like, "Great.
我想，“太棒了。
We are going to get some good things done and we're going to move the product forward."
我们将完成一些好事，并推动产品向前发展。”
Peter Deng: The third type is what I call the GM PM or the business PM.
邓彼得：第三种就是我所说的总经理PM或者业务PM。
These are half MBA, half product person.
他们一半是 MBA，一半是产品人员。
These are folks that are naturally wired to start with the business model and think about, "What are the margins?
这些人天生就从商业模式开始思考，“利润是多少？
What are the opportunities?
有哪些机会？
Where's the value being created?"
创造的价值在哪里？”
Peter Deng: We had a lot of these at Uber and they were the marketplace PMs and they're just like...
Peter Deng：我们在 Uber 有很多这样的人，他们是市场 PM，他们就像......
Peter Deng: I loved working with them because their minds just worked differently.
Peter Deng：我喜欢和他们一起工作，因为他们的思维方式不同。
They just thought about problems from like, "Well, what is the incentive here?" This is a fascinating type of mind to work with.
他们只是思考这样的问题：“那么，这里的动机是什么？”这是一种令人着迷的思维方式。
Peter Deng: Another one I found, it's actually more nuanced than you think, is there's a certain archetype that I call the platform PM, which is someone who's really deeply wired to build tools for other people.
Peter Deng：我发现的另一个问题，实际上比你想象的更微妙，是有一种我称之为平台 PM 的原型，它是一个真正热衷于为其他人构建工具的人。
Peter Deng: At Uber, we had internal platforms for messaging or for building internal tools.
Peter Deng：在 Uber，我们拥有用于消息传递或构建内部工具的内部平台。
Peter Deng: Oftentimes, these folks are overlooked but it's actually a really deep wiring, because these are the people that are going to build the systems that are going to make you go faster.
Peter Deng：这些人常常被忽视，但这实际上是一个非常深层的联系，因为这些人将构建让你走得更快的系统。
And that's what they love doing.
这就是他们喜欢做的事情。
Peter Deng: The last one, I would say, I used to call it an algorithms PM, but now in the world of AI, I'm going to rename this to research PM.
Peter Deng：最后一个，我想说的是，我以前把它称为算法 PM，但现在在人工智能的世界里，我将把它重新命名为研究 PM。
These are half researcher, half engineer, half product person.
他们一半是研究员，一半是工程师，一半是产品人员。
These minds are amazing.
这些头脑真是令人惊奇。
Peter Deng: Basically, they think traditional Google search algorithm PM but nowadays, it's like who are the people who really have that product taste but deeply understand the tech and the way the models are trained to go and affect that and build the most amazing product.
Peter Deng：基本上，他们认为传统的谷歌搜索算法是 PM，但现在，就像谁是真正具有产品品味但深刻了解技术和模型训练方式的人，以影响并构建最令人惊叹的产品。
Those are the five.: I still think to this day these hold true, and we might have been onto something the day that we brainstormed this at Uber but, yeah, I'm curious to hear your feedback.
这就是五个。：直到今天我仍然认为这些是正确的，我们可能在 Uber 集思广益的那天就已经做了一些事情，但是，是的，我很想听听你的反馈。
Lenny Rachitsky: This is great.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：这太棒了。
As you're talking, I'm just like, "Here's that person, here's that person.
当你说话的时候，我就想，“这就是那个人，这就是那个人。
Okay, they fit here." This super resonates.
好吧，它们适合这里。”这超级有共鸣。
Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by Contentsquare, the analytics platform that helps companies build better digital experiences.
Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 Contentsquare 为您带来，Contentsquare 是一个帮助公司打造更好数字体验的分析平台。
Lenny Rachitsky: Ever wonder why customers drop off before converting or why some pages perform better than others?
Lenny Rachitsky：有没有想过为什么客户在转换之前就放弃了，或者为什么有些页面的表现比其他页面更好？
Lenny Rachitsky: Contentsquare takes the guesswork out of digital experiences, giving you real-time insights into how users interact with your site or app.
Lenny Rachitsky：Contentsquare 消除了数字体验中的猜测，让您实时了解用户如何与您的网站或应用程序交互。
With AI-powered analytics, automatic frustration detection, and clear visualizations, you'll know exactly what's working and what's holding your customers back.
借助人工智能支持的分析、自动挫败感检测和清晰的可视化，您将确切地知道哪些内容有效，哪些内容阻碍了客户。
Whether you're optimizing an e-commerce checkout, refining a B2B lead flow, or improving a mobile app experience, Contentsquare pinpoints exactly what needs fixing and why.
无论您是在优化电子商务结账、完善 B2B 销售线索流程，还是改善移动应用程序体验，Contentsquare 都能准确指出需要修复的内容以及原因。
Lenny Rachitsky: Contentsquare powers better customer journeys across 1.3 million websites and apps.
Lenny Rachitsky：Contentsquare 为 130 万个网站和应用程序提供更好的客户旅程。
Discover the insights you've been missing at contentsquare.com/lenny.
在 contentsquare.com/lenny 上发现您一直缺少的见解。
Lenny Rachitsky: Just to summarize, there's consumer PMs, growth PMs, business/GM PMs, platform PMs and research PMs.
Lenny Rachitsky：总而言之，有消费者 PM、增长 PM、业务/GM PM、平台 PM 和研究 PM。
Lenny Rachitsky: A lot of people call them AI PMs now.
Lenny Rachitsky：现在很多人称他们为人工智能产品经理。
I feel like that's the term that's really now.
我觉得这就是现在真正的术语。
You have to evolve with the times.
你必须与时俱进。
Yeah.: But also the other part of the framework I find interesting is that everyone has a primary one and a secondary one.
是的。：但我觉得框架的另一部分很有趣，那就是每个人都有一个主要部分和一个次要部分。
You have to evolve with the times.
你必须与时俱进。
Yeah.: It's like one of those personality tests.
是的。：这就像性格测试之一。
Maybe we did this just because it was hard to pigeonhole people and I myself don't think I was pigeonholable, but I do think that people lead with one type of thinking and then also have the secondary thing that keeps them in balance.
也许我们这样做只是因为很难对人们进行分类，而我自己也不认为我是可以分类的，但我确实认为人们以一种思维方式领导，然后还有使他们保持平衡的次要事物。
You have to evolve with the times.
你必须与时俱进。
Yeah.: If you believe that and you apply it to your team, I'm curious to hear from your listeners if this does resonate or not.
是的。：如果你相信这一点并将其应用到你的团队中，我很想听听你的听众的意见，这是否会引起共鸣。
Maybe this framework will help you realize that you're missing someone that you should be not missing.
也许这个框架会帮助你意识到你正在想念一个你不应该错过的人。
Lenny Rachitsky: What was your archetype when you were a PM?
Lenny Rachitsky：当您担任总理时，您的原型是什么？
Peter Deng: That's the other thing with personality types is the ones you hear.
Peter Deng：关于性格类型的另一件事是你听到的。
You're like, "This is me.
你会说：“这就是我。
I own this."
我拥有这个。”
Peter Deng: There's no doubt about it.
邓彼得：这是毫无疑问的。
I am a consumer PM and also a growth PM.
我是一名消费者 PM，也是一名增长 PM。
That's my primarily consumer...
这是我的主要消费者...
I can't...
我不能...
Peter Deng: This is what I told you about the other products I've loved.
Peter Deng：这就是我告诉你的关于我喜欢的其他产品的情况。
I can see the details that people put into it and I so appreciate that.
我可以看到人们投入的细节，我非常感激。
But at the end of the day, it's like, "We got to measure things." That's what I am.
但归根结底，就像“我们必须衡量事物”。我就是这样。
But again, everyone's different.
但话又说回来，每个人都是不同的。
Lenny Rachitsky: I love your point about how a lot of people think of PM.
Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢你关于很多人如何看待总理的观点。
They hear that first example and like, "Oh, I guess that's what I need to be, because that's what everyone talks about when they're amazing product managers." But you're saying there's many other ways to be a successful PM.
他们听到第一个例子后会说：“哦，我想这就是我需要成为的人，因为当他们是出色的产品经理时，每个人都会谈论这一点。”但你是说，成为一名成功的产品经理还有很多其他方法。
Lenny Rachitsky: We did a personality test at Airbnb when I was there, and one of the biggest takeaways was it's like this color test and you get a color green or yellow, red, and the team was all over the spectrum.
Lenny Rachitsky：当我在 Airbnb 时，我们做了一个性格测试，最大的收获之一就是就像这个颜色测试，你会得到绿色、黄色、红色，而团队的颜色都在这个范围内。
It was a really good reminder just you can be a different type of person and still be really successful in this role of PM.
这是一个非常好的提醒，你可以成为一个不同类型的人，并且仍然在 PM 这个角色上取得真正的成功。
Lenny Rachitsky: It's probably because of these different archetypes and different needs and roles of PMs.
Lenny Rachitsky：这可能是因为这些不同的原型以及 PM 的不同需求和角色。
There's this word product manager but there's many things that PMs do.
有“产品经理”这个词，但 PM 要做的事情有很多。
Peter Deng: Also, as an investor now, it's really important to see the fit of the founder to the market because if you put a consumer PM into a really boring regulated industry, they're probably going to get frustrated and they're probably not going to see it through.
Peter Deng：此外，作为现在的投资者，了解创始人与市场的契合度非常重要，因为如果你将消费者产品经理放入一个非常无聊的受监管行业，他们可能会感到沮丧，并且可能无法坚持到底。
Whereas there's people that you look at the pitch and you're like, "Wow.
而有些人，当你看着球场时，你会说：“哇。
You are really passionate about this-"
你真的很热衷于这个——”
Peter Deng: ...
邓彼得：...
pitch and you're like, "Wow, you are really passionate about this problem, and you really care about building tools for others, and this is exactly," this is the Twilio PM or whatever it might be.
你会说，“哇，你真的对这个问题充满热情，而且你真的很关心为其他人构建工具，这正是，”这就是 Twilio PM 或其他任何东西。
"You're a perfect fit for this business and that's awesome," right?
“你非常适合这个行业，这太棒了，”对吧？
So I think, yeah, I love what you just said in the summary, because I think there's no one way to be a PM, and I think this is, hopefully this framework will give people a little bit more space to express who they really are.
所以我想，是的，我喜欢你刚才在总结中所说的，因为我认为成为一名产品经理没有一种方法，我认为希望这个框架能给人们更多的空间来表达他们的真实身份。
Lenny Rachitsky: I'm curious if other functions also have these sort of archetypes, like designers and engineers, but we don't need to get into that.
Lenny Rachitsky：我很好奇其他职能部门是否也有此类原型，例如设计师和工程师，但我们不需要深入探讨。
How about if you're listening to this on YouTube, leave a comment of which of these archetypes you think you might be.
如果您正在 YouTube 上收听此节目，请发表评论，说明您认为自己可能是其中的哪一种原型。
What's your primary and secondary?
你的主要和次要是什么？
I'll read them again.
我会再读一遍。
Consumer PM, growth PM, business/GM PM, platform PM, research/AI PM?
消费者 PM、增长 PM、业务/GM PM、平台 PM、研究/AI PM？
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。
I want to talk about hiring.
我想谈谈招聘的事。
So this actually came up a lot when I was chatting with folks that you've worked with, especially Nick Turley, who's head of product at ChatGPT, who we're trying to get on the podcast.
所以，当我与与你共事过的人聊天时，这个问题实际上出现了很多次，尤其是 Nick Turley，他是 ChatGPT 的产品主管，我们正试图让他加入播客。
Because-
因为——
Lenny Rachitsky: That's what I've heard.
Lenny Rachitsky：这就是我所听到的。
So he told me that the current head of engineering, the lead product engineer, the head of design and head of marketing at ChatGPT are people that you hired.
所以他告诉我，ChatGPT 现任工程主管、首席产品工程师、设计主管和营销主管都是你雇佣的人。
Also, many of the people you hired have gone on to do incredible things.
此外，您雇用的许多人都做出了令人难以置信的事情。
You've shared a few of those names, many of them have been on the podcast, which is the ultimate measure of success.
您已经分享了其中一些名字，其中许多已经出现在播客上，这是衡量成功的最终标准。
So let me just ask you this, what's one thing you look for in people you hire that you think people sleep on, that you think people aren't paying enough attention to, that helps you find amazing stars?
所以让我问你这个问题，你在你雇佣的人身上寻找什么东西，你认为人们会沉迷其中，你认为人们没有给予足够的关注，这可以帮助你找到令人惊叹的明星？
Peter Deng: That's really flattering to hear that from Nick.
Peter Deng：从尼克口中听到这个消息真是太受宠若惊了。
Nick is one of the best people I've worked with, period.
尼克是我共事过的最好的人之一。
In fact, I want to just do a quick shout out.
事实上，我只想快速喊一声。
Folks at OpenAI are pretty much the best people I've ever worked with in my career.
OpenAI 的员工几乎是我职业生涯中合作过的最好的人。
When I took the job, I told the team, "This is going to be my last operating role, and I'm going to leave it all on the field, and I'm just going to go all out.: And basically I spent probably as much time, if not more time on recruiting and building the team as I did thinking about the product.
当我接受这份工作时，我告诉团队，“这将是我最后一个运营角色，我将把一切都留在现场，我将全力以赴：基本上，我在招聘和建立团队上花费的时间可能与我思考产品时一样多，甚至更多的时间。
And this is going back to what I said earlier about, I think you got to bring the right people together to have a huge impact.
这又回到了我之前所说的，我认为你必须将合适的人聚集在一起才能产生巨大的影响。
And oftentimes leaders overlook this and they're like, "Ah, it's just a warm body," but truly, people who have strengths in certain areas compliment others with strengths in other areas.
领导者常常会忽视这一点，他们会说，“啊，这只是一个温暖的身体”，但实际上，在某些领域有优势的人会用在其他领域的优势来称赞别人。
And when you build that team, amazing things happen.
当你建立这个团队时，奇妙的事情就会发生。
It's the best investment you can make.
这是您能做出的最佳投资。
It's going to pay off so many dividends.
它将支付如此多的股息。
Peter Deng: So I think that's my opening salvo in terms of you got to get ...
邓彼得：所以我认为这是我的开场白，因为你必须......
Everyone who's listening out there, you got to make sure you look at everyone in your team, you look at what you need, and you have to get the best in each.
每个在场倾听的人，你必须确保你关注团队中的每个人，你看看你需要什么，并且你必须让每个人都做到最好。
And truly, in my farewell dinner at OpenAI, I think I closed with just, "Look, I don't even know what I would do after this, because all the best people I've worked with are here." We have Ian Silber running design there, Thomas Dimson, Joey Flynn, Ryan O'Rourke.
确实，在 OpenAI 的告别晚宴上，我想我的结束语是：“听着，我什至不知道在这之后我会做什么，因为所有与我共事过的最优秀的人都在这里。”我们有 Ian Silber 在那里负责设计，Thomas Dimson、Joey Flynn、Ryan O'Rourke。
Nick Turley was an amazing I met there.
尼克·特利（Nick Turley）是我在那里遇到的一个了不起的人。
Joanne, I mean I have so many people I'm missing, but Coley on product marketing, Antonow on the marketing comms side, , the list goes on.
乔安妮，我的意思是我缺少很多人，但是产品营销方面的科利，营销传播方面的安东诺，这样的例子不胜枚举。
Product operations is stellar.
产品运营表现出色。
I'm so proud of, honestly, the team that I built there more than the products.
老实说，我为我在那里建立的团队感到自豪，而不是为产品感到自豪。
So I just wanted to say that it's a big thing that I really care about, and I hope more leaders think about that too, is really be mindful of putting your team together, and thinking about that as a product.
所以我想说，这是我真正关心的一件大事，我希望更多的领导者也考虑到这一点，真正注意将你的团队聚集在一起，并将其视为一种产品。
And you have to really craft that.
你必须真正做到这一点。
You have to really care about the team.
你必须真正关心团队。
So-
所以——
Lenny Rachitsky: Just to double down on that point, actually, before you get to the next tip here, I just love this answer, which is, if I were to ask someone, "What's your hiring vice?
Lenny Rachitsky：为了强调这一点，实际上，在你进入下一个技巧之前，我很喜欢这个答案，也就是说，如果我问某人，“你的招聘恶习是什么？
What do you look for that people may not be looking for enough?" Most of it would be like in that person, here's what you need to focus on, and here's the interview question.
你在寻找什么，而人们可能没有足够地寻找？”对于那个人来说，大部分都是这样的，这是你需要关注的，这是面试问题。
But kind of your broad answer so far is it's not actually about the person, so much as what is the team going to look like, and where do we need spikes?
但到目前为止，你的广泛答案是，这实际上与人无关，而与团队的外观有关，以及我们在哪里需要尖峰？
Where do we need to balance out the composition of this Avengers that we're building?
我们需要在哪里平衡我们正在构建的复仇者联盟的组成？
Peter Deng: Totally, totally.
邓彼得：完全，完全。
That's exactly right.
完全正确。
And so that being said, I guess I have, I guess, on brand, I have two things I want to share about hiring the right team.
话虽这么说，我想我有，我想，关于品牌，我有两件事想分享关于雇用合适的团队。
I have this saying, I actually have this doc that I've taken around various companies called the PXD API, which is like, "Here's how to work with me." And in it, there's a saying that I have, which is what I really optimize for for everyone that I support and everyone I hire, which is in six months, if I'm telling you what to do, I've hired the wrong person.
我有这么一句话，我实际上有一份文档，我已经把它带到了不同的公司，称为 PXD API，它就像是，“这是如何与我合作的。”其中，我有一句话，这就是我真正为我支持的每个人和我雇用的每个人进行优化的地方，即六个月后，如果我告诉你该怎么做，我就雇用了错误的人。
And it's just kind of served me really well on three different levels.
它在三个不同的层面上对我很有帮助。
Number one, it's a reminder for myself when I'm either hiring, or looking for the person, is to keep my bar super high and just not settle.
第一，当我在招聘或寻找人才时，它提醒我自己，要保持极高的标准，不要安于现状。
Because if I do, most likely in six months, it would not be true that I would be able to let this person run, and I would still be telling them what to do, which is not what I want.
因为如果我这样做，很可能在六个月内，我就不可能让这个人跑了，而且我仍然会告诉他们要做什么，这不是我想要的。
That is not my desire.
那不是我的愿望。
Peter Deng: The second sort of effect of that is that it's ...
Peter Deng：第二种影响是……
I say that to people when they come on the team or as we're making the hire, because it communicates to them that that's my bar, and that's how they know they'll be successful, and something to kind of work towards.
当人们加入团队或我们进行招聘时，我会对他们这么说，因为这向他们传达了这样的信息：那就是我的酒吧，这就是他们知道自己会成功的方式，也是需要努力的方向。
Peter Deng: And the third thing is kind of a joint thing for both of us, which is it kind of gives us, it helps me and the person operate on a different level, where the goal is not did you hit this OKR, did you hit this goal?
Peter Deng：第三件事对我们来说是一件共同的事情，它给我们带来了帮助，它帮助我和这个人在不同的层面上运作，目标不是你达到这个 OKR 了吗？你达到这个目标了吗？
The meta goal becomes, hey, are we calibrating enough?
元目标变成了，嘿，我们校准得足够了吗？
Are we actually getting to a spot where in six months, you're the one telling me what needs to be done?
我们是否真的会在六个月内到达这样的境地：你是那个告诉我需要做什么的人？
Are we getting there, right?
我们快到了吗？
Peter Deng: Because then, if that's the framing, every mistake that is made or whatever on either of our parts becomes a learning opportunity in terms of like, well, how do we grow from this to where we want to be in six months?
邓彼得：因为如果这是框架的话，那么我们所犯的每一个错误或任何一方的任何错误都会成为一个学习机会，比如，我们如何从现在的情况成长到六个月内我们想要达到的目标？
And how is it possible that I, as a manager, can do the right things to set this person up for success, so that I don't have to be involved in six months?
作为一名经理，我怎么可能做正确的事情来帮助这个人取得成功，这样我就不必在六个月内参与其中？
Peter Deng: And I think that those three things, and being able to have that second-order effect of this simple razor, in six months, if I'm telling you what to do, I've hired the wrong person, it puts pressure on me, it puts pressure on the person, and it creates this really interesting environment and this kind of safe space to really think about, are we heading towards that goal?
Peter Deng：我认为这三件事，以及能够在六个月内发挥这个简单剃刀的二阶效应，如果我告诉你该怎么做，我雇佣了错误的人，这给我带来了压力，它给这个人带来了压力，它创造了这个非常有趣的环境和这种安全的空间来真正思考，我们是否正在朝着这个目标前进？
And again, every place I've been at, as much as I've loved building the product, I've taken so much pride in building the team, and it's just been so much of a pleasure.
再说一次，我去过的每一个地方，尽管我非常喜欢构建产品，但我对构建团队感到非常自豪，这真是一种乐趣。
And I think this is one of the two secrets that I have here.
我认为这是我在这里拥有的两个秘密之一。
Lenny Rachitsky: This is so good.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：这太棒了。
I have a follow-up question, but just to point out why I think this is so genius is that there's kind a assumption here of this person, you can trust them.
我有一个后续问题，但只是想指出为什么我认为这是如此天才，因为这里有一个关于这个人的假设，你可以信任他们。
So there's like, do I trust this person?
那么，我信任这个人吗？
Do I feel like they're going to be proactive?
我觉得他们会主动吗？
Do I feel like they're going to have correct insights, essentially taste and gut feeling?
我是否觉得他们会有正确的见解，本质上是品味和直觉？
It's like the layer below this question, which is great.
就像这个问题下面的一层，这很棒。
And also just this autonomy, it feels like autonomy almost implies so many important traits of somebody that you want to hire.
而且就是这种自主权，感觉自主权几乎意味着你想雇用的人的许多重要特征。
And I love just how simple this question is for both you and them to -
我喜欢这个问题对于你和他们来说是多么简单——
Peter Deng: Thank you.
邓彼得：谢谢。
And really with that autonomy, I love what you said about autonomy.
确实有了这种自主权，我喜欢你所说的自主权。
Because truly, as a leader, as a manager, your goal is to scale.
因为确实，作为领导者、经理，你的目标是扩大规模。
And if this simple statement is not true, how are you able to build the best company, the best product?
如果这个简单的说法不成立，那么你如何能够打造最好的公司、最好的产品呢？
Lenny Rachitsky: So here's the follow-up question.
Lenny Rachitsky：这是后续问题。
Is this mostly for leaders, like say a head of product at ChatGPT, say, someone's not a CPO, they're just like, I don't know, a manager of a PM team, is there a version of this that you think might be useful to them, or is this mostly for leaders?
这主要是针对领导者，比如 ChatGPT 的产品负责人，比如说，某人不是 CPO，他们只是，我不知道，PM 团队的经理，您认为是否有一个版本可能对他们有用，或者这主要针对领导者？
Peter Deng: I think this is for everyone.
邓彼得：我认为这适合所有人。
I think it's for everyone who is a manager.
我认为这适合每个管理者。
Because if you're going to be a successful manager at any company, or a leader at any company, and if you're starting as a line manager, or whatnot, and you're kind of wanting to grow, or even just wanting to ...
因为如果你想成为任何公司的成功经理，或者任何公司的领导者，如果你从直线经理或其他职位开始，并且你想要成长，甚至只是想……
If you're early at a company, you have so much institutional knowledge.
如果你是一家公司的早期员工，你就会拥有很多机构知识。
And so getting more leverage in terms of being able to pass on the wisdom that you've learned is so crucial into being successful that I think every manager should approach their reports with this.
因此，在能够传递你所学到的智慧方面获得更多的影响力对于成功至关重要，我认为每个经理都应该以此来处理他们的报告。
Because truly, it's just good for everyone.
因为确实，这对每个人都有好处。
It's good for the company to have more kind of leverage and scale.
拥有更多的杠杆和规模对公司来说是有好处的。
It's good for the person who is being brought onto the team, because they know what success looks like, and it gives them a path to keep on growing.
这对于被带入团队的人来说是件好事，因为他们知道成功是什么样子，并且这为他们提供了一条继续成长的道路。
And it's great for you as a leader, as a manager, to be able to basically scale up the entire expertise of your team.
作为领导者、经理，能够从根本上扩展团队的整体专业知识对你来说是件好事。
Lenny Rachitsky: I imagine you don't even need to plan to not tell them what to do.
Lenny Rachitsky：我想你甚至不需要计划不告诉他们该怎么做。
It's just a good lens into, are they going to be amazing?
这只是一个很好的镜头，他们会很棒吗？
Even if you plan to be telling them sort of what to do.
即使您打算告诉他们该怎么做。
Peter Deng: Yeah, exactly.
邓彼得：是的，完全正确。
The other thing is, again, in your interview process, you kind of end up looking for these insights, and you look for the behaviors of like, oh, are they actually going to be potentially able to achieve this in six months?
另一件事是，在你的面试过程中，你最终会寻找这些见解，你会寻找类似的行为，哦，他们真的有可能在六个月内实现这一目标吗？
And that's going to give you a really good lens on the picking side, not just the development side as well.
这将为您在挑选方面（而不仅仅是开发方面）提供一个非常好的视角。
Lenny Rachitsky: Peter, what's your second secret?
莱尼·拉奇茨基：彼得，你的第二个秘密是什么？
This is one-for-one.
这是一对一的。
Peter Deng: Yeah.
邓彼得：是的。
Okay.
好的。
The second one I'd say is, I feel really strongly about this, which is the area that I look for most is growth mindset.
我要说的第二个是，我对此有强烈的感受，这是我最寻找的领域是成长心态。
And I actually came to this some point in my management career at Facebook, where I did make a mistake and hired someone who just didn't quite have that growth mindset.
事实上，我在 Facebook 的管理生涯中曾遇到过这样的情况，当时我确实犯了一个错误，聘用了一个不太具备成长心态的人。
And it was really difficult, because the way I say it's like, "Look, I don't have time to sugarcoat any feedback," and frankly, the best people I've worked with are the people who come into one-on-ones with me and yell at me and tell me I'm messing up.
这真的很困难，因为我说的方式就像是，“听着，我没有时间粉饰任何反馈”，坦率地说，与我共事过的最好的人是那些跟我一对一地对我大喊大叫并告诉我我搞砸了的人。
I love that, because there's nothing left unsaid, and we're able to kind of move the ball forward of, "Hey, how do we get better from this?" And I feel like growth mindset's one of those things, Lenny, that it feels really hard to teach at a certain age.
我喜欢这一点，因为没有什么是未说的，我们能够推动事情向前发展，“嘿，我们如何从中变得更好？”我觉得成长心态就是其中之一，莱尼，在某个年龄段很难教授。
And this is really important to me and my family, I expect growth mindset of myself, of my kids, my colleagues at work.
这对我和我的家人来说非常重要，我希望我自己、我的孩子、我的同事都能拥有成长心态。
Peter Deng: Because I think it just creates this environment where everyone is open to what's the one thing I can get better at?
Peter Deng：因为我认为这只是创造了这样一个环境，让每个人都对我能做得更好的一件事持开放态度？
And that whole get 1% better every day can become true.
每天进步 1% 的想法可以成为现实。
And it's funny, whenever I go to teams like ChatGPT or Uber, when I'm always the final interview for someone in my org, and I partner with recruiting on developing the rubric, I always insist on doing the last interview.
有趣的是，每当我去 ChatGPT 或 Uber 这样的团队时，当我总是组织中某个人的最后一次面试，并且我与招聘部门合作开发标题时，我总是坚持进行最后一次面试。
And I do ...
而我确实...
not product sense, I don't do design, I don't do execution, I don't do metrics.
不是产品意识，我不做设计，我不做执行，我不做指标。
I only do growth mindset.
我只做成长型思维。
Peter Deng: And it's kind of like, well that's crazy.
Peter Deng：这有点像，这太疯狂了。
What about all of these other attributes?
所有这些其他属性又如何呢？
I'm like, "Well, I'm pretty sure I can trust the other people to assess the other attributes." But I think the growth mindset thing is so important to me, that we build a org where people are self-reflective, and want to get better, and take that feedback, and give that feedback.
我想，“好吧，我很确定我可以相信其他人来评估其他属性。”但我认为成长心态对我来说非常重要，我们建立了一个组织，让人们进行自我反思，希望变得更好，接受反馈，并提供反馈。
And it just is this meta unlock that I found to be true.
我发现这个元解锁是真实的。
And really, if you don't have growth mindset, and you're not open to feedback, and you're not open to learning, then that's the meta blocker.
事实上，如果你没有成长心态，不愿意接受反馈，不愿意学习，那么这就是元阻碍。
At that point, it's hard to get feedback, it's hard to onboard to a new skill.
那时，很难获得反馈，也很难掌握新技能。
It's hard to develop in any sort of meaningful way.
很难以任何有意义的方式进行开发。
And so I found that to be the really critical piece.
所以我发现这是真正关键的部分。
Lenny Rachitsky: That's a big deal what you just said there, that essentially as the CPO, head of product, big product leader at a company, your interview is not like, "Are you an amazing product manager?
Lenny Rachitsky：你刚才所说的很重要，本质上作为公司的首席产品官、产品主管、大产品负责人，你的面试并不是这样的：“你是一位出色的产品经理吗？
Do you have products taste," things like that.
你有产品味道吗，”之类的东西。
It's a growth mindset.
这是一种成长心态。
Peter Deng: And I just want to clarify, it's because all the other things have been interviewed by the designer, by the engineering lead, et cetera.
Peter Deng：我只是想澄清一下，因为所有其他事情都经过了设计师、工程主管等的面试。
And that's where the previous principle comes into play as well, in terms of, I do trust my team to go and assess those people, but the one thing that I care so much about is growth mindset.
这也是前面的原则发挥作用的地方，就我确实相信我的团队会去评估这些人而言，但我非常关心的一件事是成长心态。
And that's kind of the thing.
事情就是这样。
And to be honest, I do do a little bit of a sweep.
说实话，我确实做了一些扫荡。
So if we got weak signal on one of those areas, I'll do it.
因此，如果我们在其中一个区域收到微弱信号，我就会这么做。
But the pure focus of my last interview is going to be on growth mindset.
但我上次采访的纯粹焦点是成长心态。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, well I need to ask you what that looks like.
Lenny Rachitsky：好的，我需要问你那是什么样子的。
But before I do, when you talk about growth mindset, I have this image of Mark Benioff on the podcast, and I asked him, just like there's so much changing all the time.
但在我开始之前，当你谈论成长心态时，我在播客上看到了马克·贝尼奥夫的这张照片，我问他，就像一直在发生如此多的变化一样。
It's such a crazy world to be leading a company in this world, where just, everyone's disrupting each other, AI's changing everything.
在这个世界上领导一家公司真是一个疯狂的世界，每个人都在互相干扰，人工智能正在改变一切。
It's just moving so fast, every day there's a new breakthrough, and you have to keep track, and just like, how do you deal with that?
它发展得太快了，每天都有新的突破，你必须跟踪，就像，你如何应对？
And he's like, "You should be thinking, 'Good.
他说，“你应该想，‘很好。
This is amazing.
这太棒了。
This is the best time to be building.
这是建设的最佳时机。
There's so much opportunity, so exciting.
机会太多了，太令人兴奋了。
This is what we want.'"
这就是我们想要的。’”
Lenny Rachitsky: "Good." I just remember saying like, "Good."
莱尼·拉奇茨基：“很好。”我只记得我说过“很好”。
Lenny Rachitsky: And I feel like that's the epitome of growth mindset.
Lenny Rachitsky：我觉得这就是成长心态的缩影。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, so let me ask you just how do you tease out a strong growth mindset?
Lenny Rachitsky：好的，让我问你如何梳理出强大的成长心态？
What are some ways?
有哪些方法呢？
Peter Deng: Well, good thing I'm not an operator anymore, because I'm going to give away my interview questions, so no one can cheat on this.
Peter Deng：好吧，幸好我不再是操作员了，因为我将放弃我的面试问题，所以没有人可以在这一点上作弊。
I feel like this is another reason why this is such a great time to do this podcast.
我觉得这是现在做这个播客的好时机的另一个原因。
The question I asked has been the same one I've asked for years.
我问的问题和我多年来问的问题是一样的。
And you can really kind suss it out from this, which is I asked them, think about one of the biggest mistakes you've made, truly, the more painful the better.
你真的可以从中弄清楚，我问他们，想想你犯过的最大错误之一，真的，越痛苦越好。
And tell me what the mistake was.
并告诉我错误是什么。
Describe to me the situation, and tell me actually how you actually think differently now, work differently as a result.
向我描述一下情况，并告诉我你现在的想法和工作方式实际上有何不同。
How has that turned into a core principle of yours, et cetera.
这如何变成了你的核心原则，等等。
Peter Deng: And I give them a moment to think about it.
邓彼得：我给他们一些时间考虑一下。
Sometimes I even share some of my mistakes, if need be.
有时，如果需要的话，我什至会分享一些我的错误。
And it's interesting, because I've asked this question so many times, I can smell the BS if they're not being authentic.
这很有趣，因为我已经问过这个问题很多次了，如果他们不真实，我就能闻到废话。
Peter Deng: It's kind of like, "oh, I've worked too hard," or, "I did this thing." And they're really not being that ...
邓彼得：这有点像，“哦，我工作太努力了，”或者，“我做了这件事。”而他们确实不是那样的......
You can tell the vulnerability that people are willing to express.
你可以说出人们愿意表达的脆弱性。
And I reciprocate with that, if they ask me what mine is, I will tell them what it is.
我也会回报，如果他们问我我的是什么，我会告诉他们那是什么。
And then that's the vibe.
这就是氛围。
Peter Deng: But what ends up happening is there's multiple reasons why this is really interesting.
Peter Deng：但最终发生的事情是有多种原因可以解释为什么这真的很有趣。
One, you get to get a sense of how reflective they are.
第一，你可以了解他们的反思能力。
And there's one woman, I was chatting with them, we actually went on for an hour, because she was just educating me on this amazing problem that she had made this mistake on, and how it changed the way that she worked, and the company worked.
有一个女人，我正在和他们聊天，我们实际上聊了一个小时，因为她只是在教育我这个她犯了这个错误的惊人问题，以及它如何改变了她的工作方式以及公司的工作方式。
It was just incredible.
这真是令人难以置信。
And you can sense the passion, you can sense what's genuine.
你可以感受到激情，你可以感受到什么是真诚的。
And then there are always, once in a while those things that people are just very, a little bit more defensive and not willing to open up.
然后，偶尔总会有一些事情，人们只是非常非常有防御性，不愿意公开。
And it's safe.
而且很安全。
It's a one-on-one setting, so it's a safe space.
这是一对一的设置，因此是一个安全的空间。
And it's also, I don't think it actually selects for or against introverts or extroverts.
而且，我不认为它实际上会选择支持或反对内向或外向的人。
I think at that point it's really genuine.
我认为在这一点上它确实是真诚的。
And the second sort of order effect there is, if they end up coming on the team, you've already had that moment.
第二种顺序效应是，如果他们最终加入团队，你就已经拥有了那个时刻。
You've already had that moment where you've just already said, "Hey, this is where I really messed up." And guess what?
你已经经历过这样的时刻：“嘿，这就是我真正搞砸的地方。”你猜怎么着？
It's all okay.
一切都好。
It's not a loss, it's a lesson.
这不是损失，而是教训。
And so it just sets a different tone for your working relationship.
所以它只会为你们的工作关系定下不同的基调。
So again, I've never A-B tested this, so I can't tell you if this actually, works or not, but I found it to be very helpful in the style that I work in, to be able to have that level of connection, whether it's with a direct report or somebody in New York.
再说一次，我从来没有对此进行过 A-B 测试，所以我不能告诉你这是否真的有效，但我发现它对我的工作风格非常有帮助，能够建立这种程度的联系，无论是与直接报告还是纽约的某人。
Lenny Rachitsky: What I love about this answer is it's very much like Fail Corner, which is a recurring segment on this podcast, and I might tweak Fail Corner to be even closer to this question.
Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢这个答案的原因是它非常像 Fail Corner，这是这个播客中反复出现的部分，我可能会调整 Fail Corner 以使其更接近这个问题。
Okay, so let me summarize these essentially two questions that you've found to be really helpful in finding these superstars that you've hired over the years.
好吧，让我总结一下这两个问题，您发现这两个问题对于寻找您多年来雇用的超级明星非常有帮助。
One is you ask people in six months, "If I'm telling you what to do, I've hired the wrong person." Or I guess, how do you say it when you say it to someone?
一是你在六个月后问人们，“如果我告诉你该怎么做，我就雇错了人。”或者我猜，当你对某人说这句话时，你怎么说？
Just like, "You're probably the wrong person for this?"
就像，“你可能是错误的人选？”
Peter Deng: Well, it's actually framed a little bit differently.
Peter Deng：嗯，它的框架实际上有点不同。
So there's five different part of my API, or just how to work best with me.
我的 API 有五个不同的部分，或者只是如何与我最好地合作。
There's five attributes of people that are most successful who work with me and I love working with.
与我一起工作并且我喜欢与之共事的最成功的人有五个特质。
And one of them is framed as that you're telling me what to do, not the other way around.
其中之一的框架是你告诉我要做什么，而不是相反。
Peter Deng: Right, right.
邓彼得：对，对。
And then I follow up with, "In six months, if I'm still telling you to do, I've hired the wrong person."
然后我接着说：“六个月后，如果我仍然告诉你这样做，我就雇错了人。”
Peter Deng: I think, that's how I frame it.
邓彼得：我想，这就是我的框架。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。
By the way, you should open source this PXD API doc.
顺便说一下，您应该开源这个 PXD API 文档。
Peter Deng: I would love to.
邓彼得：我很愿意。
I think now I got nothing to hide.
我想现在我没什么可隐瞒的了。
I'm just like, "Here, I'm an open book." So maybe we'll do that at some point.
我只是想，“在这里，我是一本打开的书。”所以也许我们会在某个时候这样做。
You'll make me brave enough to do that, maybe after this podcast.
也许在这个播客之后，你会让我有足够的勇气去做这件事。
Lenny Rachitsky: So you may find a link in the show notes for this podcast to the doc.
Lenny Rachitsky：所以您可能会在该播客的节目说明中找到该文档的链接。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。
And then the other question you ask is, "Tell me essentially a story of when you failed, a product that you launched failed, and how that changed how you behave, how you think about product, how you operate."
然后你问的另一个问题是，“告诉我一个关于你失败的故事，你推出的产品失败了，以及这如何改变了你的行为方式，你对产品的看法，以及你的运营方式。”
Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
Okay, great.
好的，太好了。
Okay, let's talk about management.
好吧，我们来谈谈管理。
Lenny Rachitsky: So this came up, so I talked to a bunch of people that have worked with you, and interestingly, one of the most recurring themes, it wasn't about AI, or ...
Lenny Rachitsky：所以这个问题出现了，所以我和一群曾与你共事的人交谈过，有趣的是，最反复出现的主题之一，它与人工智能无关，或者......
Hiring came up a bit, but it was actually mostly about how skilled you are as a manager.
招聘问题出现了一些，但实际上主要是关于你作为经理的技能如何。
And this all has already come through in a lot of the things we've talked about.
这一切都已经在我们讨论过的很多事情中体现出来了。
So I want to talk about a couple things here.
所以我想在这里谈几件事。
Lenny Rachitsky: One is someone that you worked with at OpenAI, Joanna Jang?
Lenny Rachitsky：其中一位是你在 OpenAI 共事过的人，Joanna Jang？
Or is it Yang-
还是杨——
Lenny Rachitsky: Jang.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：张。
Okay, cool.
好吧，酷。
You worked with her at OpenAI, and she shared a couple things that I think are really interesting.
您在 OpenAI 与她共事，她分享了一些我认为非常有趣的事情。
One is that you had a profound impact on her career by teaching her how to manage up more effectively.
一是你教她如何更有效地进行向上管理，对她的职业生涯产生了深远的影响。
And you did that by teaching her a really simple phrase that she just says and uses.
你通过教她一个非常简单的短语来做到这一点，她只是说和使用。
First of all, do you remember what that phrase is?
首先，你还记得这句话是什么吗？
Peter Deng: I've said a lot of stuff, and I've kind of forgotten.
邓彼得：我说过很多话，但我都忘记了。
I tend to forget what I say, so you might have to remind me.
我很容易忘记自己说过的话，所以你可能需要提醒我。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, so she said "Say you'll do the thing, do the thing, say you did the thing," as a skill of managing up.
Lenny Rachitsky：好的，所以她说“说你会做那件事，做那件事，说你做了那件事”，作为一种向上管理的技能。
So just talk about that, just the power of that and what that's all about.
所以就谈谈它的力量以及它的全部内容。
Peter Deng: I mean, look, I learned this from my time at Uber, from Jill who runs PR, comms, and policy there, and she used to have this saying, which is like, "Repetition doesn't spoil the prayer." It's just a natural thing where people are busy.
彼得·邓：我的意思是，你看，我从在 Uber 工作的时候，从吉尔那里学到了这一点，吉尔在那里负责公关、通讯和政策，她曾经说过这样一句话，就像是“重复不会破坏祈祷”。人们忙碌是很自然的事情。
So whether you think about managing up or even managing the entire org, if you don't repeat what your goals are, if you don't repeat what your vision is, if you don't repeat the thing that you feel strongly about what you're doing, whether it's maybe to your manager, one, I think you might lose sight of the thing that's important.
因此，无论你考虑向上管理，甚至管理整个组织，如果你不重复你的目标是什么，如果你不重复你的愿景是什么，如果你不重复你对自己正在做的事情有强烈感觉的事情，无论是对你的经理来说，我认为你可能会忽视重要的事情。
And I think this is where it's a little bit about behavior.
我认为这就是行为的一点点。
This is another language affecting thought thing.
这是另一种语言影响思想的东西。
By giving this phrase to Joanne, maybe it was just like, "Hey, let's just be very intentional about what we build." That becomes a constant reminder.
通过将这句话告诉乔安妮，也许就像是，“嘿，让我们对我们构建的东西非常有意识。”这成为一个持续的提醒。
Peter Deng: And it also has this other effect, where if you're saying, "This is what I'm doing," and then that's a thing that your manager's like, "Wait, we don't need to do that anymore," you can have a conversation about that.
Peter Deng：它还有另一个效果，如果你说，“这就是我正在做的事情”，然后你的经理会说，“等等，我们不需要再这样做了，”你们可以就此进行对话。
As opposed to just doing the thing and not saying that you're doing it.
而不是只做某事而不说你正在做这件事。
Peter Deng: So let me take a step back.
邓彼得：所以让我退后一步。
So one, say what you're going to do.
那么，请说出你要做什么。
And then in that exercise you're going to be able to calibrate with your manager, again, with anyone, what is it that we're going to do?
然后在这个练习中，你将能够与你的经理再次校准，与任何人校准，我们要做什么？
And I think the words are really important here, going back to what I said earlier, so figuring out what is that goal, and crafting that to really pack the most punch and the densest of concepts.
我认为这些话在这里非常重要，回到我之前所说的，所以弄清楚目标是什么，并精心设计它以真正包含最有力和最密集的概念。
And then you're telling them that you're doing it, which that's the second phase, which is like, in your one-on-ones or in your team all hands, you're saying, "This is what we're doing."It's a great time to reaffirm you're doing or invite the conversation that this is no longer the thing to do.
然后你告诉他们你正在做这件事，这是第二阶段，就像在你的一对一或团队全体人员中，你说，“这就是我们正在做的事情。”现在是重申你正在做的事情或邀请对话的好时机，表明这不再是要做的事情。
Peter Deng: And you got to tell them you did it.
Peter Deng：你必须告诉他们你做到了。
So just close the loop, just be like, "Okay, great, this is now done." And I think that's, again, it's one of those really pithy phrases that has so many second-order effects that are behavioral, almost.
因此，只需关闭循环即可，就像“好吧，太好了，现在完成了”。我认为，这又是那些真正简洁的短语之一，它具有如此多的二阶效应，几乎是行为上的。
And this is a little bit of a hack in terms of helping people.
就帮助人们而言，这有点像黑客。
It's funny that Joanne thought of it as managing up, which it is, but in my mind it's almost like this is how we operate, and this is how we're successful to stay on task, stay on goal, and be able to revisit the goals that we've set when they no longer are relevant.
有趣的是，乔安妮认为这是向上管理，事实也是如此，但在我看来，这几乎就是我们的运作方式，这就是我们如何成功地完成任务，保持目标，并能够在目标不再相关时重新审视我们设定的目标。
Lenny Rachitsky: So the phrase again is say you'll do the thing, do the thing, and then say that you did the thing.
Lenny Rachitsky：所以这句话又是说你会做那件事，做那件事，然后说你做了那件事。
Peter Deng: Sorry, one more time.
邓彼得：抱歉，再说一遍。
The way I would say it is, say you're going to do the thing, say that you're doing the thing, and then say that you did it.
我想说的方式是，说你要做那件事，说你正在做那件事，然后说你做到了。
Lenny Rachitsky: This also works for presentation advice.
Lenny Rachitsky：这也适用于演示建议。
So this came up, I don't if it was Guy Kawasaki or someone, had a very similar phrase that was for how to present well, which is tell them what you're going to tell them, tell them, and then tell them what you just told them.
所以这个问题出现了，我不知道盖伊·川崎（Guy Kawasaki）或其他人是否有一个非常相似的短语，就是如何很好地表达，那就是告诉他们你要告诉他们什么，告诉他们，然后告诉他们你刚刚告诉他们的内容。
Peter Deng: It's possible that I might've incepted it from there.
Peter Deng：我可能是从那里开始的。
So I take no ownership over this phrase.
所以我对这句话不拥有所有权。
I will just say that yes, I did repeat it.
我只想说是的，我确实重复了一遍。
Lenny Rachitsky: This is great.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：这太棒了。
And I love that this isn't just managing up advice, it's just operating advice for everyone.
我喜欢这不仅仅是管理建议，而是为每个人提供的运营建议。
And there's an implication of, the last part is just make sure people know what you did, almost make sure that you get some credit, and people understand the impact you've had.
这意味着，最后一部分只是确保人们知道你做了什么，几乎确保你得到了一些荣誉，并且人们了解你所产生的影响。
Peter Deng: Which is important.
邓彼得：这很重要。
I think there's a lot of people who are kind of introverted, and don't want to draw attention, and don't have the hero complex.
我觉得有很多人都比较内向，不想引人注目，没有英雄情结。
And I think that those people tend to get lost in organizations.
我认为这些人往往会在组织中迷失方向。
So if that describes you, just remember to say what you did.
因此，如果这描述了您，请记住说出您做了什么。
Lenny Rachitsky: There's another management trait that Joanne shared that I want to spend a little time on, which is you're very good at helping people understand that they can lean into their strengths, and not feel like they need to fit into a certain box.
Lenny Rachitsky：乔安妮分享的另一个管理特质我想花一点时间，那就是你非常善于帮助人们了解他们可以发挥自己的优势，而不是觉得他们需要适应某个特定的框框。
She shared that you basically helped her create almost a new role within OpenAI that wasn't even a thing before.
她分享说，你基本上帮助她在 OpenAI 中创建了一个几乎新的角色，这在以前根本不存在。
So just maybe share that example, and then just talk about why this is important, how you think about this.
所以也许只是分享这个例子，然后谈谈为什么这很重要，你是如何看待这个问题的。
Peter Deng: Well, I love that we're talking about things that Joanne are telling you, because Joanne's really special.
邓彼得：嗯，我喜欢我们谈论乔安妮告诉你的事情，因为乔安妮真的很特别。
I got to just take a moment to give her a giant shout out.
我得花点时间对她大声喊叫。
She is the only person that I've worked with that has as much technical depth as she does have product taste.
她是我共事过的唯一一位技术深度与产品品味一样高的人。
And I just want to pause there.
我只想暂停一下。
It's just truly special.
这真的很特别。
I feel entirely privileged to have the chance to cross paths with her at OpenAI.
我非常荣幸有机会在 OpenAI 与她相遇。
I learned so much from her.
我从她身上学到了很多。
Again, talk about not telling you what to do after six months.
再次谈谈不告诉你六个月后该做什么。
She was telling me what to do from day two, and I loved it, because she was so technical, and she has this taste and those two things are very rare to find together.
她从第二天就告诉我要做什么，我很喜欢，因为她技术性很强，而且她有这种品味，这两件事很难同时找到。
And with Joanne, because she was so special in that way, and I spotted that, I was like, "Wow, I've worked with so many PMs and just like, this is very unique."
对于乔安妮，因为她在这方面非常特别，我发现了这一点，我就想，“哇，我和很多产品经理一起工作过，就像，这是非常独特的。”
Peter Deng: It felt like we had to find a way to craft this.
Peter Deng：感觉我们必须找到一种方法来制作这个。
And sure enough, I was like, "Hey, can you just write up a job description of what is this thing?
果然，我当时想，“嘿，你能写一份关于这件事的工作描述吗？
Because there's something magical here, but I don't fully understand it." I don't think any other person really thinks of things this way, and think this might be a big superpower for OpenAI.
因为这里有一些神奇的东西，但我并不完全理解。”我认为没有其他人真正以这种方式思考问题，并且认为这可能是 OpenAI 的一个巨大的超能力。
Let's codify it." And again, going back to my language being a really important thing, I think the exercise sometimes of writing things down, of things that you intuitively feel, give you an artifact that can kind of communicate with somebody else.
让我们把它编成法典。”再说一次，回到我的语言是一件非常重要的事情，我认为有时写下来的练习，你直觉感受到的东西，会给你一个可以与其他人交流的神器。
So in this case, Joanne writing down some of the things that she got really excited about, helped me really understand that.
因此，在这种情况下，乔安妮写下了一些她真正兴奋的事情，帮助我真正理解了这一点。
And I was luckily in a position where I can basically say, "Look, let's create this role.
幸运的是，我基本上可以说：“看，让我们创造这个角色。
Let's create this role and have you lead it.
让我们创建这个角色并让你来领导它。
And I think this is going to be great for the product if we're able to codify it."
我认为，如果我们能够将其编纂出来，这对产品来说将会非常有利。”
Peter Deng: So I don't think I did anything special.
邓彼得：所以我不认为我做了什么特别的事情。
I was just following my instincts, and just following her lead.
我只是跟随我的直觉，跟随她的引导。
Again, I'll be clear, I did not author that document.
再次强调，我没有撰写该文档。
My recollection, she did that.
我的记忆里，她就是这么做的。
So she did all the hard work in all of this thing, and I don't want to take any credit for it.
所以这一切都是她付出了所有的努力，我不想因此而获得任何功劳。
The only thing I did was just gave her a little nudge of, " I think there's something here.
我唯一做的就是轻轻推了推她，“我觉得这里有东西。
Can you just take a moment to go and write this down?" And when she did, it was just like, "Okay, this has got to be a role and you have to be the leader for this function."
你能花点时间把这个写下来吗？”当她这样做的时候，就像是，“好吧，这必须是一个角色，而你必须成为这个功能的领导者。”
Lenny Rachitsky: What is the actual role she ended up in?
Lenny Rachitsky：她最终扮演的实际角色是什么？
I think that'd be really interesting to share.
我认为分享这真的很有趣。
Peter Deng: The role was model designer, and it was just a really interesting way that she framed it.
Peter Deng：这个角色是模特设计师，她的构图方式非常有趣。
And I know this role probably exists in some incarnation in other foundational model companies, but the way that she described it, and the things that she found to be the spikes required, led us to hire our first two model designers after running a search.
我知道这个角色可能存在于其他基础模型公司的某些化身中，但她描述它的方式，以及她发现的尖峰所需的东西，导致我们在进行搜索后雇用了我们的前两名模型设计师。
And they were just perfect fits for the team.
他们非常适合团队。
And that, I think, is largely a big secret as to why, at least, I'm biased.
我认为，这在很大程度上是一个大秘密，至少说明了为什么我有偏见。
I love ChatGPT so much, and the way the model comes off, and the vibe of the model, is largely because of this technical plus taste role that she has created and she's leading.
我非常喜欢 ChatGPT，模特的表现方式以及模特的氛围很大程度上是因为她创造并领导的这种技术加品味的角色。
Lenny Rachitsky: I love one of the interesting takeaways from this is as a leader is just pay attention to what people are really, really excited about, and then take the step of, let them try to describe it very clearly in a doc.
Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢其中一个有趣的收获，那就是领导者只需关注人们真正非常兴奋的事情，然后采取行动，让他们尝试在文档中非常清楚地描述它。
Coming back to your point about the power of language and words is just like, "Okay, tell me exactly what you're thinking and let's jam on it, because maybe there's something here."
回到你关于语言和文字的力量的观点就像是，“好吧，准确地告诉我你在想什么，让我们继续讨论，因为也许这里有东西。”
Lenny Rachitsky: Is there anything broader here about just leaning into strengths that you find just ...
Lenny Rachitsky：关于仅仅依靠你发现的优势，还有什么更广泛的东西吗？
There's a lot of people, there's all this debate of should I just work on the things I'm terrible at and that'll make me better, or should I find the things I'm amazing at and just get better at those things?
有很多人都在争论，我应该只做我不擅长的事情，这会让我变得更好，还是应该找到我擅长的事情，然后在这些事情上做得更好？
Any thoughts there?
有什么想法吗？
Peter Deng: I genuinely believe that fit is a two-way street.
Peter Deng：我真诚地相信，适合是一条两条路。
And so what you are passionate about, what your strengths are, you got to really find the right company, the right role for you.
因此，你的热情是什么，你的优势是什么，你必须真正找到合适的公司，适合你的角色。
And I think there's a lot of force fitting that people want to do is to fit into a certain archetype.
我认为人们想要做的很多力拟合都是为了适应某种原型。
I'm glad we talked about the PM archetypes.
我很高兴我们谈论了 PM 原型。
Hopefully that frees people up to really lean into what they love.
希望这能让人们真正专注于自己喜欢的事情。
Because life's pretty short.
因为生命很短暂。
It'd be great if everyone would find the thing that they really wanted to do, and be able to lean in and do that.
如果每个人都能找到自己真正想做的事情，并且能够努力去做，那就太好了。
And I think the optimist to me is also why I'm so excited about the time and age that we're in right now, because there's so many different companies popping up.
我认为对我来说乐观也是为什么我对我们现在所处的时代和时代如此兴奋，因为有这么多不同的公司涌现。
So there's something that really resonates with people.
所以有一些东西确实能引起人们的共鸣。
Peter Deng: I mean, take a look at just what we're doing here, it's like, podcasting was not a thing 20 years ago.
Peter Deng：我的意思是，看看我们在这里所做的事情，就好像 20 年前播客还不是一个东西。
It was not a thing.
这本来就不是一件事。
But now, we are able to have these amazing tools and platforms that allow people to really express themselves, and really, what really truly brings them joy and makes them happy, and also brings a ton of value to the world.
但现在，我们能够拥有这些令人惊叹的工具和平台，让人们能够真正表达自己，真正给他们带来快乐，让他们快乐，也给世界带来了巨大的价值。
So I think that, yeah, I definitely believe in leaning in strengths, and I think that as hard as it may be, sometimes you got to look at where you are right now, and is this the thing that you really want to do?
所以我认为，是的，我绝对相信依靠优势，而且我认为尽管这可能很困难，但有时你必须看看你现在在哪里，这是你真正想做的事情吗？
Or is there something else that's drawing your attention and drawing you towards that?
或者还有其他什么东西吸引了你的注意力并吸引你走向那个方向？
Lenny Rachitsky: There's another management oriented question I want to ask you.
Lenny Rachitsky：我想问你另一个与管理相关的问题。
This came from Eric Antonell, who apparently has worked with you for 17 years across a bunch of different-
这是来自埃里克·安东内尔 (Eric Antonell) 的，他显然已经与您合作了 17 年，涉及许多不同的领域——
Peter Deng: Yeah, off and on for 17 years.
邓彼得：是的，断断续续地持续了 17 年。
One of my biggest mentors and friends, he's amazing.
我最重要的导师和朋友之一，他非常棒。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。
So he's like, "You need to ask this question." So the way he put it is you've hired, managed, mentored many, many, many product people, some junior, some senior, across so many different cultures, and he's just like, "We need to learn something from your experience doing that," in terms of what you've learned about what it takes to be a really successful product person, whether it's being successful in building product or career-wise, what's just a nugget that you learned from seeing so many different types of people, and cultures, and seniority.
所以他说，“你需要问这个问题。”所以他的说法是，你已经雇佣、管理、指导了很多很多的产品人员，有些是初级人员，有些是高级人员，跨越了如此多的不同文化，他就像是，“我们需要从你这样做的经验中学习一些东西”，就你所了解的如何成为一名真正成功的产品人员而言，无论是在构建产品方面取得成功还是在职业方面取得成功，这只是你从看到这么多不同类型的人、文化和资历中学到的金块。
Peter Deng: I think for a product person specifically, it's really important to obsess over the details of craft.
Peter Deng：我认为对于一个产品人来说，注重工艺细节非常重要。
Because ultimately, you're crafting a product.
因为最终，你是在制作一个产品。
It's important to obsess about the details of craft, while simultaneously having the perspective and wisdom of which details don't actually matter.
着迷于工艺细节非常重要，同时对细节并不重要的问题要有洞察力和智慧。
I'm going to pause there and just kind of try to-
我要在这里暂停并尝试-
Peter Deng: I'm going to pause there and just try to unpack this a little bit because at the core of being a product person, you're like, oh, I want to build something that people love and that's the job and that's what draws people to be product people is that you have this desire to build.
Peter Deng：我要在这里暂停一下，尝试稍微解释一下这个问题，因为作为一名产品人员的核心，你会想，哦，我想构建一些人们喜欢的东西，这就是工作，这就是吸引人们成为产品人员的原因，因为你有这种构建的愿望。
And I think that I've been involved in enough teams where I, myself, and when I was really young and coming up as a product person, I would just get obsessed over these little details and I realized afterwards that we've just wasted a bunch of time on something that didn't actually matter.
我认为我已经参与了足够多的团队，在这些团队中，我自己，当我非常年轻并成为一名产品人员时，我只会沉迷于这些小细节，后来我意识到我们只是在一些实际上并不重要的事情上浪费了很多时间。
So I think that dichotomy is somewhat interesting and beautiful to me because it capsulates both the core of what the ethos of a successful product person is, which is you really have to care and you have to give a crap about the product that you're building, but you also have to have the perspective and business know-how to understand where do you apply your time and where do you apply the care there?
所以我认为二分法对我来说有点有趣和美丽，因为它概括了成功产品人员精神的核心是什么，即你必须真正关心你正在构建的产品，你必须对你正在构建的产品给予垃圾，但你还必须拥有视角和业务知识来了解你在哪里应用你的时间以及你在哪里应用关心？
Peter Deng: And I myself feel like I've gone through cycles.
邓彼得：我自己也觉得自己经历了一个周期。
Everything that I've done, I've gone super deep and really obsessed and then I take a step back and I'm like, wait, actually I was missing something and this other thing was more important, right?
我所做的一切，我都非常深入并且非常着迷，然后我退后一步，我想，等等，实际上我错过了一些东西，而另一件事更重要，对吧？
I'll give you an example.
我给你举个例子。
I'll use the Uber example here as what I said that the digital product didn't really matter and it's all about the price, the ETA, one of the products that I've built at Uber, which is Uber Reserve, right?
我将在这里使用 Uber 的例子，就像我所说的那样，数字产品并不重要，重要的是价格、预计到达时间，这是我在 Uber 开发的产品之一，即 Uber Reserve，对吗？
It's the simplest of things.
这是最简单的事情。
Going back to what I said before, sometimes the best products is the simplest of things.
回到我之前所说的，有时最好的产品就是最简单的东西。
But the problem that we were trying to solve is that everyone has this.
但我们试图解决的问题是每个人都有这个问题。
You have a 6 AM flight, and are you really going to wake up at 4 AM and request an Uber and hope that there's enough Ubers and the person's going to come?
您有早上 6 点的航班，您真的会在凌晨 4 点起床并叫一辆 Uber 车，并希望有足够的 Uber 车并且有人会来吗？
Peter Deng: Because if you do that, you're not going to sleep well and you're going to wake up every two hours and you're probably going to miss your flight anyway because you're going to fall asleep or whatever.
Peter Deng：因为如果你这样做，你就睡不好，你会每两个小时醒来一次，而且你可能会错过你的航班，因为你会睡着或者其他什么。
And so there was this insight of like, okay, there's a whole mismatch between what people really want, which is the peace of mind that their car is going to be there and guess what?
所以有这样的见解，好吧，人们真正想要的东西之间完全不匹配，那就是他们的车会在那里，你猜怎么着？
I'm willing to pay for that.
我愿意为此付出代价。
And so we built Uber Reserve, which it was the simplest thing, which is like, oh, just go ahead and say what time your flight is and we'll work backwards or even just tell us when you want to get picked up and everything about that product we crafted what really mattered for the user, which was the peace of mind.
因此，我们建立了 Uber Reserve，这是最简单的事情，就像，哦，只要说你的航班时间，我们就会倒推，甚至只是告诉我们你什么时候想接车，关于该产品的一切，我们都精心设计了对用户来说真正重要的东西，这就是安心。
So if you go there and you say what time your flight is and your pick-up time or whatever, I think that the product is...
因此，如果你去那里并说你的航班时间和接机时间或其他什么，我认为该产品是......
It hasn't changed that much since I was there.
自从我在那里以来，情况没有太大变化。
Peter Deng: It would tell you, oh, this is cutting it really close.
邓彼得：它会告诉你，哦，这已经非常接近了。
You may not make your flight.
您可能无法赶上航班。
It's like, wow.
就像，哇。
Again, that was put in there because of the principle of peace of mind.
再次强调，这是出于安心的原则。
And on the other side it's like, well, what do drivers need?
另一方面，司机需要什么？
They need to know you're not going to cancel and all this other stuff.
他们需要知道你不会取消以及所有其他事情。
So you've got to think about the driver incentives too.
因此，您还必须考虑驾驶员的激励措施。
So it was a simple idea, really proud of the team for figuring out all the intricate details, did some testing, and last I heard from folks internally, this is a $5 billion a year business now and one of the highest margin ones, and I'm really proud of this because it came from the idea of let's focus on what actually matters, which is that peace of mind and how many people really need it in that moment.
所以这是一个简单的想法，我真的为团队弄清楚所有复杂的细节、做了一些测试而感到自豪，最后我从内部人员那里听到，这是一个每年 50 亿美元的业务，也是利润率最高的业务之一，我对此感到非常自豪，因为它来自于让我们专注于真正重要的事情的想法，即心灵的平静以及在那一刻有多少人真正需要它。
So I think that's the best story I can tell.
所以我认为这是我能讲的最好的故事。
Lenny Rachitsky: That's an awesome story.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：这是一个很棒的故事。
It connects so many of the things you've talked about.
它连接了你谈论过的很多事情。
One is just it may not be the product that really matters, and micro-optimizing the experience is not going to move the needle when there's something else that's more operationally oriented, but there's always going to be a product component if you're building it for freezers.
其一，真正重要的可能不是产品，当有其他更注重操作的东西时，对体验进行微观优化不会起到什么作用，但如果你是为冰箱构建产品组件，那么总会有一个产品组件。
The other piece that I think is interesting here is...
我认为这里有趣的另一件事是......
Well, there's two.
嗯，有两个。
One is just it connects back to your point about the importance of autonomy of product people is just I feel like you're like, here's the team, here's what I'm told to work on.
一是它与你关于产品人员自主权重要性的观点联系起来，我觉得你就像，这是团队，这就是我被告知要做的工作。
And then you're like, oh, but this thing is actually the problem we need to solve and let's just build a new product around it.
然后你会想，哦，但这实际上是我们需要解决的问题，让我们围绕它构建一个新产品。
And then there's a whole story I imagine of you getting buy-in and all that stuff.
然后我想象了一个完整的故事，你得到了支持以及所有这些东西。
Lenny Rachitsky: The other thing this connects to, we just had the CPO of Uber, the current CPO of Uber on the podcast, and he had a few episodes before this one.
Lenny Rachitsky：与此相关的另一件事是，我们刚刚在播客中邀请了 Uber 的 CPO，现任 Uber 的 CPO，他在这之前有过几集。
It was all about dog fooding and basically exactly discovering these problems.
这一切都是关于狗粮，基本上就是准确地发现这些问题。
He's done seven to 800 rides as an Uber driver to discover these problems.
作为一名 Uber 司机，他已经完成了 7 到 800 次行程，才发现了这些问题。
He had this great quote about, it's one thing to watch, just build an app for drivers sitting in your office making it look really pretty.
他有一句很棒的名言，值得一看的是一回事，只需为坐在办公室里的司机开发一个应用程序，让它看起来非常漂亮。
It's another to be driving 60 miles an hour with this phone a few feet away from you trying to figure things out.
以每小时 60 英里的速度行驶，拿着离你几英尺远的手机试图弄清楚事情是另一回事。
Peter Deng: A hundred percent.
邓彼得：百分之一百。
Oh, I remember that I took two weeks off before I joined Uber.
哦，我记得我加入 Uber 之前请了两周假。
And in that time I've been obsessed with user research for the longest of times, and this is more relevant back then when you wanted to really understand how the wide massive users were using your product.
在那段时间里，我一直痴迷于用户研究，当你想真正了解广大用户如何使用你的产品时，这更有意义。
And I remember I actually leased a car to drive for Uber those two weeks.
我记得那两周我实际上租了一辆车为优步开车。
So it was a little white VW something or another.
所以它是一辆白色大众汽车什么的。
I put an Uber sticker on it, I turned on the app and it just started driving and there's no better way to learn than to dog food, and I'll just build on what...
我在它上面贴了一张 Uber 贴纸，我打开了应用程序，它就开始驾驶了，没有比狗粮更好的学习方法了，我将在此基础上继续发展……
Sachin is the person you had on the podcast?
Sachin 是你在播客上的那个人吗？
Yeah, he's an amazing, amazing guy.
是的，他是一个了不起的人。
And so I'll just build on what he said there.
所以我会以他在那里所说的话为基础。
I think that what really stuck with me in terms of framework that I learned back in school because I was brought up with the IDEO way of design thinking and I was at the design school at Stanford where before we literally were in trailers.
我认为真正让我印象深刻的是我在学校学到的框架，因为我是在 IDEO 的设计思维方式下长大的，而且我在斯坦福大学的设计学院，之前我们真的是在拖车里。
That's how early it was.
那是多么早的事啊。
Peter Deng: But I remember the framework that really stuck with me is what IDEO preached, which is there are five stages to great design thinking.
Peter Deng：但我记得真正让我印象深刻的框架是 IDEO 所宣扬的，即伟大的设计思维有五个阶段。
Number one is empathize, two is to define, three is to ideate, four is a prototype, and five is to test.
第一是共情，第二是定义，第三是构思，第四是原型，第五是测试。
And what I love about this framework, and I really hope this doesn't get lost because I don't know how much it's being preached nowadays in design thinking is that it has the right words associated with it.
我喜欢这个框架的原因是，我真的希望它不会迷失，因为我不知道现在在设计思维中它有多少与之相关的正确词语。
The first thing is empathizing.
首先是同理心。
You've got to really feel the pain of your customers.
你必须真正感受到顾客的痛苦。
It's not just about theoretically understanding what the problems are.
这不仅仅是从理论上理解问题所在。
It's really empathizing, which is why user research was so important to me is to understand that, or even like Sachin said, just taking those rides but also flying around the world.
这真的很令人同情，这就是为什么用户研究对我来说如此重要，就是要理解这一点，甚至像萨钦说的那样，不仅乘坐这些游乐设施，而且还飞往世界各地。
And when I was working at Uber to figure out, well, what are the various conditions?
当我在 Uber 工作时，我想弄清楚各种条件是什么？
Peter Deng: And so empathize is a really powerful word.
Peter Deng：所以同理心是一个非常强大的词。
The define is also a really powerful word because it forces you to articulate what the problem is.
定义也是一个非常强大的词，因为它迫使你阐明问题是什么。
And this is, again, going back to the language thing of you have to be very intentional about defining the problems that you want to solve and then ideate, we all know it's brainstorming and prototyping and tests are self-explanatory, but the first two stages I think are really insightful and it talks directly to what Sachin was saying.
再次回到语言问题，你必须非常有意识地定义你想要解决的问题，然后构思，我们都知道这是集思广益、原型设计和测试是不言自明的，但我认为前两个阶段非常有洞察力，它直接与萨钦所说的内容相关。
You've got to dog food because you really have to empathize and the great products are when you really feel the pain and you really empathize with what people are experiencing.
你必须狗粮，因为你真的必须有同理心，而伟大的产品是当你真正感受到痛苦并且真正同情人们正在经历的事情时。
Lenny Rachitsky: That's a great connection to another podcast episode that came to mind as you were talking, the head of product at Linear, Nan, had this really great concept that's exactly what you're saying, which is as a product person, you want to feel the pain of your customer the same way they do.
Lenny Rachitsky：这与您在谈论时想到的另一个播客节目有很大的联系，Linear 的产品负责人 Nan 有一个非常棒的概念，这正是您所说的，即作为产品人员，您希望像客户一样感受到他们的痛苦。
You shouldn't stop asking questions to understand what they're telling you until you feel the pain that they feel and that'll help you.
你不应该停止提问来理解他们告诉你的内容，直到你感受到他们所感受到的痛苦，这会对你有所帮助。
Basically, that's like how to operationalize empathizing.
基本上，这就像如何实施同理心。
It's just do you feel the suffering?
只是你感受到痛苦了吗？
Peter Deng: Yeah, and I really do hope product people still do this to this day because I think there's so many shortcuts that if people take, you're going to miss the point, right?
Peter Deng：是的，我真的希望产品人员至今仍这样做，因为我认为有太多的捷径，如果人们采用的话，你就会错过重点，对吧？
I still remember distinctly flying down to LA with Kevin Systrom to go do a user research study, and it was a one-way glass thing where we listened to people talk about Instagram and how they use Instagram, and there's no substitute for that.
我仍然清楚地记得和 Kevin Systrom 一起飞往洛杉矶去做一项用户研究，这是一场单向玻璃活动，我们听人们谈论 Instagram 以及他们如何使用 Instagram，这是无可替代的。
I think that to anyone out there who's doing user interviews and then saying, hey ChatGPT, summarize the takeaways, you're missing the point.
我认为对于那些进行用户访谈然后说“嘿 ChatGPT，总结一下要点”的人来说，你没有抓住重点。
You can't empathize with the summary.
你无法理解这个总结。
You have to be in the room fully immersed, no phones, just actually hearing the words and the intonation.
你必须完全沉浸在房间里，没有电话，只是真正听到单词和语调。
That's how you're going to get the full color.
这就是获得全彩色的方法。
Lenny Rachitsky: It makes me think Jeff Bezos has this great quote, if you have an anecdote and data and they're telling you different things, trust the anecdote.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：这让我觉得杰夫·贝佐斯有一句很棒的名言，如果你有轶事和数据，而他们告诉你不同的事情，请相信这个轶事。
Oh, man.
哦，伙计。
So many lessons.
这么多教训。
Okay, so to start to kind of wrap up our conversation, we covered a lot of ground, I want to ask you about Facebook real quick.
好的，为了结束我们的对话，我们讨论了很多基础知识，我想快速向您询问有关 Facebook 的问题。
So you joined Facebook very early.
所以你很早就加入了 Facebook。
Eric Antonow, who I've mentioned previously, told me that it was very strange that you left Google to join Facebook at that stage.
我之前提到过的埃里克·安东诺 (Eric Antonow) 告诉我，你在那个阶段离开谷歌加入 Facebook，这很奇怪。
Google was killing it, on top of the world.
谷歌正在扼杀它，登上世界之巅。
You had such a strong career path, things were going great, but you decided to take a big leap joining Facebook.
您的职业道路非常顺利，一切进展顺利，但您决定迈出一大步，加入 Facebook。
What did you see?
你看到了什么？
Because I think there's something interesting here that we can learn about what you saw that may help other people decide where to go work.
因为我认为这里有一些有趣的东西，我们可以了解您所看到的内容，这可能会帮助其他人决定去哪里工作。
Peter Deng: I've always been enamored with this idea of understanding us as fundamentally human and how we're wired.
Peter Deng：我一直着迷于理解我们作为人类的本质以及我们如何连接的想法。
And I remember at the time talking to the folks at Facebook and seeing it, and this was back when people were like, oh, this is just a college site, and that was the vibe back then.
我记得当时与 Facebook 的人们交谈并看到了它，当时人们会说，哦，这只是一个大学网站，这就是当时的氛围。
But what I saw was that the team and Mark and others really understood the fundamental human desires that people had to connect and feel lonely and to share, and they really got the right articulation of the problem they were trying to solve, which was to make the world more open and connected.
但我看到的是，团队、马克和其他人真正理解人类的基本愿望，即人们必须联系、感到孤独和分享，他们真正正确地表达了他们试图解决的问题，那就是让世界更加开放和联系。
And this really resonated with me because again, I study a lot in college like psychology, and I was really enamored with this idea of how are we as humans fundamentally wired?
这确实引起了我的共鸣，因为我在大学里学了很多东西，比如心理学，我真的很着迷于我们作为人类从根本上来说是如何连接的这个想法？
And it felt to me like a no-brainer to go work at Facebook because they saw how people were wired and how to actually build products that complement how people are wired.
对我来说，去 Facebook 工作是理所当然的事情，因为他们看到了人们的联系方式以及如何实际构建与人们的联系方式相补充的产品。
Peter Deng: And it wasn't that they were trying to force fit something into something that was unnatural.
Peter Deng：他们并不是想强行将某些东西强行融入到不自然的东西中。
It was almost like how do we build technologies and products that actually augment our fundamental desire to stay connected?
这几乎就像我们如何构建能够真正增强我们保持联系的基本愿望的技术和产品？
And this goes back to why I think the power of wars is so important is because you take a look at some of the mission statements for Friendster or MySpace, I don't even know if they had mission statements or what they were, they were kind of vapid and they didn't really speak to the fundamental humanity of what Facebook was striving to build and that just deeply resonated with me.
这又回到了为什么我认为战争的力量如此重要，因为你看一下 Friendster 或 MySpace 的一些使命宣言，我什至不知道他们是否有使命宣言或使命宣言是什么，它们有点乏味，并没有真正谈到 Facebook 正在努力建立的基本人性，这让我产生了深深的共鸣。
And so I remember spending time with Eric being like, "Hey, what should I do?
所以我记得和埃里克一起度过的时光就像，“嘿，我应该做什么？
Should I take this offer from Facebook or should I stay at Google?" But ultimately it was just that deep resonance with my values of building things that were fundamentally human.
我应该接受 Facebook 的邀请还是留在 Google？”但归根结底，这只是与我构建人性化事物的价值观的深刻共鸣。
And ultimately I think that for any startup out there, anyone building product, the more that you can get a good impedance match between what you're building and what humans fundamentally want and need, the more successful you're going to be.
最终我认为，对于任何初创公司、任何构建产品的人来说，你所构建的产品与人类根本想要和需要的产品之间的阻抗匹配越多，你就会越成功。
Peter Deng: So that's my big answer.
Peter Deng：这就是我的重要答案。
I think the secondary answer, I've always optimized for learning in my career, and this is a huge thing that I say to a lot of people because they look at sort of like, oh, you've been at all these companies, what's your secret?
我认为第二个答案是，我一直在职业生涯中优化学习，这是我对很多人说的一件大事，因为他们看起来有点像，哦，你在所有这些公司工作过，你的秘密是什么？
I'm like, well, I've just figured out that I want to go to the place where I can learn the most.
我想，好吧，我刚刚发现我想去一个我能学到最多东西的地方。
And for me, that wasn't really Google, but I had so much I wanted to learn from operating at Facebook.
对我来说，那并不是真正的谷歌，但我想从 Facebook 的运营中学到很多东西。
And at Facebook I would say, yeah, I was there for nine and a half years, but I always jumped around every two and a half or so when I feel like there was something new to learn.
在 Facebook，我会说，是的，我在那里呆了九年半，但当我觉得有新东西需要学习时，我总是每隔两年半左右就跳来跳去。
And that's it.
就是这样。
Peter Deng: I mean, I don't know if it's a secret or not, I got lucky and I was able to have opportunities to learn different things and different skills, and that served me quite well.
邓彼得：我的意思是，我不知道这是否是一个秘密，我很幸运，我能够有机会学习不同的东西和不同的技能，这对我很有帮助。
And regardless of any outcome, I would say that's just a great way to live your life personally is just to optimize for learning and those experiences and for me, moving to Facebook was that I saw so much learning that could have happened and it ultimately did happen.
不管结果如何，我想说，这只是一种很好的个人生活方式，只是为了优化学习和这些体验，对我来说，转向 Facebook 是因为我看到了很多本来可以发生的学习，而且最终确实发生了。
So I feel like that was a good outcome too.
所以我觉得这也是一个很好的结果。
Lenny Rachitsky: did it.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：做到了。
So a couple takeaways here for folks that are maybe trying to decide between a couple roles, maybe deciding if they should leave and do something new is one, are you feeling like you're learning enough/is the new place you're thinking about going to help you learn a lot more?
因此，对于那些可能试图在几个角色之间做出决定的人来说，这里有一些要点，也许决定他们是否应该离开并做一些新的事情是其中之一，你觉得你学得足够多/你正在考虑的新地方会帮助你学到更多吗？
Two, is what they're building aligned with human behavior?
第二，他们正在构建的东西是否符合人类行为？
Almost this impedance match that you described.
几乎与您所描述的阻抗匹配。
It feels like there's another element you shared, which is do they have a really unique insight about how things work?
感觉您还分享了另一个要素，那就是他们对事物的运作方式是否有真正独特的见解？
And also do you really care about this?
你真的关心这个吗？
Is this also how you see the world?
这也是你看待世界的方式吗？
So you're talking about a Facebook, they have this really unique insight about human behavior and that was really important to you, and so it was a really good fit.
所以你说的是 Facebook，他们对人类行为有独特的见解，这对你来说非常重要，所以这是一个非常合适的选择。
Peter Deng: A hundred percent.
邓彼得：百分之一百。
Yeah.
是的。
I think the insight thing, thank you for summarizing that and drawing that out because it's also what I look for and what I want to partner with companies and startups now is do you have that unique insight?
我认为洞察力的事情，谢谢你的总结和绘制，因为这也是我所寻找的，也是我现在想要与公司和初创公司合作的，你有这种独特的洞察力吗？
Are you teaching me something that I really don't know?
你在教我一些我真的不知道的东西吗？
And that usually is a good indicator of a strong point of view, and having a strong point of view is really important because there's a saying that Mike and Kevin had at Instagram which is we may not be right, but at least we're not confused.
这通常是强烈观点的一个很好的指标，并且拥有强烈的观点非常重要，因为迈克和凯文在 Instagram 上有一句话，我们可能不对，但至少我们没有感到困惑。
I think it's a beautiful phrase I thought because sometimes you've just got to go and do the thing that you think is right and the indecision is going to be one of the things that really gets you and bites you.
我认为这是一个美丽的短语，因为有时你必须去做你认为正确的事情，而优柔寡断将成为真正让你痛苦的事情之一。
So that for me is something as I look for folks who have a strong conviction, whether it's the founders I support when I go join and be an operator at the company or the founders I support in my current role.
因此，对我来说，这就是我寻找有坚定信念的人，无论是我加入并成为公司运营商时支持的创始人，还是我在当前职位上支持的创始人。
Lenny Rachitsky: That's so interesting.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：这太有趣了。
Tomer Cohen, the CPO of LinkedIn, that's a famous phrase that he often uses too.
LinkedIn 的 CPO Tomer Cohen 也经常使用这句名言。
Lenny Rachitsky: So I think he borrowed it from those guys.
Lenny Rachitsky：所以我认为他是从那些人那里借来的。
Yeah.
是的。
That was one of his mottos.
这是他的座右铭之一。
We may not be right, but we're not confused.
我们可能不正确，但我们并不困惑。
Peter Deng: Wow, I didn't know that.
邓彼得：哇，我不知道。
So I did talk him at one point.
所以我有一次确实和他谈过。
I don't remember if that's something we talked about, but again, it could just be like great minds think alike, and we just had different great folks with Mike and Kevin and Tomer feeling the same vibes.
我不记得我们是否讨论过这件事，但同样，这可能就像英雄所见略同，我们只是有不同的伟大人物，迈克、凯文和托默感受到了同样的共鸣。
Lenny Rachitsky: I love just how many episodes this conversation has referenced.
Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢这段对话引用了多少集。
Okay, so speaking of learning, final question before we get to our very exciting lightning round, I'm going to take us to Fail Corner, which is very aligned with your growth mindset question.
好的，说到学习，在我们进入非常激动人心的闪电回合之前的最后一个问题，我将带我们去失败角，这与你的成长心态问题非常一致。
So the idea of this segment is people come on this podcast, they share all these amazing stories of everything's working out, I had so much success, worked at all these incredible companies, everything worked, but in reality, things don't often work out.
所以这个部分的想法是人们来到这个播客，他们分享所有这些一切都在顺利进行的惊人故事，我取得了巨大的成功，在所有这些令人难以置信的公司工作过，一切都很顺利，但实际上，事情并不经常顺利。
Most people go through a lot of failed initiatives, projects, career hits, so the question is just what's a product that you built and launched that was just a big failure?
大多数人都经历过很多失败的计划、项目、职业生涯的失败，所以问题是你开发和推出的产品有哪些是一次巨大的失败？
And I'll ask it the way you ask it, how did that change the way you think and operate?
我会按照你问的方式来问，这如何改变了你的思维和运作方式？
Peter Deng: One example is, since we were talking about Instagram before, we tried to build a kind of camera first app at Instagram.
Peter Deng：举个例子，因为我们之前讨论过 Instagram，所以我们尝试在 Instagram 上构建一款相机优先的应用程序。
It was called Bolt and it didn't work and the great levels of craft and design and the premise was essentially can we make it so it reduces the pressure to share, and you can open to a camera, you can just send some things to folks and you get some good feedback and you go from there.
它被称为 Bolt，但它不起作用，工艺和设计水平很高，前提是我们能做到这一点，这样就可以减少分享的压力，你可以打开相机，你可以向人们发送一些东西，你会得到一些好的反馈，然后你就可以从那里开始。
And it was obviously the Instagram design team, so it was top-notch.
而且显然是Instagram的设计团队，所以是一流的。
The app was designed really well.
该应用程序设计得非常好。
It was really fast because it's the Instagram engineering team and they were just really good at making performant mobile apps.
速度真的很快，因为这是 Instagram 工程团队，他们非常擅长制作高性能的移动应用程序。
It had all of the advantages that we had talked about that we valued at Instagram, but we launched it and I believe it was New Zealand or Australia and it didn't work.
它具有我们在 Instagram 上谈论过的所有优势，但我们推出了它，我相信在新西兰或澳大利亚，它并没有发挥作用。
Peter Deng: And I remember the reason we knew this is as we were looking at sort of the retention graphs and retention is the key indicator in any product that you build, it's not the number of users, not the volume, it's actually retention and cohorted retention, you can the line and if it asymptotes, then you're in a good spot because that means that people over X period of time will continue to stay on the app and that just didn't happen.
Peter Deng：我记得我们之所以知道这一点，是因为我们正在查看某种留存图表，而留存是您构建的任何产品的关键指标，它不是用户数量，也不是数量，它实际上是留存和群组留存，您可以画出这条线，如果它渐近，那么您就处于一个好的位置，因为这意味着超过 X 时间段的人们将继续留在该应用程序上，但这并没有发生。
And I think the learning here was that you can really have the best team in the world with the best product taste and you can't really predict what's going to hit on the first go.
我认为这里学到的是，你确实可以拥有世界上最好的团队和最好的产品品味，但你无法真正预测第一次会发生什么。
Peter Deng: And failure is okay, you're just going to up and learn from that and nobody wallowed over that.
邓彼得：失败也没关系，你只要站起来并从中学习，没有人会沉迷其中。
We actually had some technology that we built there that we were able to port over to the main app, which was really helpful, but to quote the great american poet Sean Carter, "It ain't a loss, it's a lesson." And I think it's really important that you see that as a product person is that you don't see it as failure, you see it as kind of great.
实际上，我们在那里构建了一些技术，可以将其移植到主应用程序，这确实很有帮助，但引用伟大的美国诗人肖恩·卡特的话，“这不是损失，而是教训。”我认为非常重要的是，作为一名产品人员，你不会将其视为失败，而是将其视为伟大的。
Now I'm that much smarter.
现在我聪明多了。
And this is something that I've just collected.
这是我刚刚收集的东西。
There's other examples as well, but I think this is a good example of sort of something that's somewhat counterintuitive, that you have the best team, you're going to provide those hits over and over, but sometimes you can't predict those hits and you just have to have the wisdom to be like, okay, let's see what we can learn here, see what we can save here, and then move on.
还有其他例子，但我认为这是一个有点违反直觉的好例子，你拥有最好的团队，你将一遍又一遍地提供这些点击，但有时你无法预测这些点击，你只需要有智慧，好吧，让我们看看我们可以在这里学到什么，看看我们可以在这里节省什么，然后继续前进。
Lenny Rachitsky: I absolutely remember that product in launch or heard about it, but I also don't ever think about it.
Lenny Rachitsky：我绝对记得该产品的发布或听说过它，但我也从未想过它。
And so I think it's a good reminder.
所以我认为这是一个很好的提醒。
Because Instagram launching a new product that's trying to rethink the way you do your camera, that's a big deal.
因为 Instagram 推出了一款新产品，试图重新思考你使用相机的方式，所以这是一件大事。
And so I could see that being a really big deal for it not to work out.
所以我可以看到，如果事情不成功的话，这真的是一件大事。
At the same time, nobody remembers that really.
与此同时，没有人真正记得这一点。
Lenny Rachitsky: Peter, we've gone for two hours at this point.
Lenny Rachitsky：Peter，我们已经走了两个小时了。
I feel like we could do two hours more.
我觉得我们还可以再做两个小时。
We'll save that for another conversation.
我们将把这个留到下次谈话。
Lenny Rachitsky: Before we get to our very exciting lightning round, is there anything else you either wanted to share or want to leave listeners with to maybe double down on a point you made that you think might be helpful?
Lenny Rachitsky：在我们进入非常激动人心的闪电回合之前，您还有什么想分享的，或者想留给听众的，以便加倍强调您认为可能有帮助的观点？
Otherwise, we'll just jump right in.
否则，我们就直接跳进去。
Peter Deng: I think we should jump right in because I feel like you've extracted every little ounce of what wisdom I had here and you did a great job here just helping me remember these stories and recounting stuff, so I'm ready to jump in.
邓彼得：我认为我们应该立即介入，因为我觉得你已经提取了我在这里所拥有的每一点智慧，而且你在这里做得很好，帮助我记住这些故事并重述了一些东西，所以我准备好介入了。
Lenny Rachitsky: That's my goal, although I know there is much more that I haven't even started to tap, but with that, we reached our very exciting lightning round.
Lenny Rachitsky：这就是我的目标，尽管我知道还有很多东西我还没有开始挖掘，但这样我们就进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。
Are you ready?
你准备好了吗？
Lenny Rachitsky: Question one.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：问题一。
What are two or three books that you find yourself recommending most to other people?
您发现自己最向其他人推荐的两三本书是什么？
Peter Deng: This is easy for me.
邓彼得：这对我来说很容易。
Number one is Sapiens.
第一名是智人。
If you're a product person, you have to understand our own humanity if you want to build products for people, straight up.
如果你是一名产品人员，如果你想直接为人们打造产品，你就必须了解我们自己的人性。
That's a beautiful book.
那是一本很漂亮的书。
I read it before it was called Sapiens, it was called From Animals to Gods, and it was just republished in a different name, but it has really stuck with me and I remember, it's a very short, easy read, so I'd recommend that.
我在它被称为《智人》之前读过它，它被称为《从动物到上帝》，它只是以不同的名称重新出版，但它确实让我印象深刻，我记得，它很短，很容易读，所以我推荐它。
The second book I think for product folks is a classic one, which is The Design of Everyday Things by Don Norman.
我认为对于产品人员来说，第二本书是一本经典之作，是唐·诺曼（Don Norman）的《日常事物的设计》。
This may seem outdated and old, but I promise you it's not.
这可能看起来过时和陈旧，但我向你保证事实并非如此。
It really helps you understand physical product design, which is again, things that mold and shape to humanity.
它确实可以帮助您理解物理产品设计，也就是塑造和塑造人类的事物。
I think it gives you a good sense of that.
我认为这让你有很好的感觉。
Peter Deng: Third book is something I'm reading right now it was recommended by a friend of mine and I can't put it down.
邓彼得：第三本书是我现在正在读的书，是我的一个朋友推荐的，我爱不释手。
It's called The Silk Roads by Peter Frankopan.
彼得·弗兰科潘（Peter Frankopan）将其称为“丝绸之路”。
And basically this is a recounting of history through the lens of The Silk Road and the Middle East and how that's evolved.
基本上，这是通过丝绸之路和中东的镜头来讲述历史以及它是如何演变的。
It's so fascinating because one of the things I love, Lenny, is seeing things from different perspectives.
这太令人着迷了，因为莱尼，我喜欢的事情之一就是从不同的角度看待事物。
This is why travel's fun, this is why user research is fun for me, and it really helps you see the events of world history that we've all been experiencing through a very western viewpoint in a different way.
这就是为什么旅行很有趣，这就是为什么用户研究对我来说很有趣，它确实可以帮助你以不同的方式通过非常西方的观点来了解我们都经历过的世界历史事件。
And it kind of connects a bunch of things that are like, there's Western thought, there's Eastern thought, but if you see the connection between them, it's super fascinating.
它有点连接了很多东西，比如，有西方思想，有东方思想，但如果你看到它们之间的联系，那就超级迷人。
I'm only two, three or maybe four chapters in, but definitely something I would recommend off the bat.
我只写了两章、三章甚至四章，但我绝对会立即推荐。
Lenny Rachitsky: What is a favorite recent movie or TV show that you've really enjoyed?
Lenny Rachitsky：您最近最喜欢的电影或电视节目是什么？
Peter Deng: Maybe it's not as recent, but the one that always comes back to me is The Wire, HBO's The Wire.
Peter Deng：也许不是最近的事，但我总是想起《火线》，HBO 的《火线》。
And I guess there's just so many TV shows now that I'm still processing, do I want to put it in my all-time greats?
我想现在有太多电视节目我还在处理，我想把它放进我的历史最佳节目中吗？
But the storytelling there and the various different sort of consistent characters, but the fact that there's the beautiful writing of The Wire is something that's unparalleled.
但那里的故事讲述和各种不同类型的一致角色，但事实上，《火线》的优美文笔是无与伦比的。
Lenny Rachitsky: I'm now curious what's in your all-time greats list, but I'm not going to go there.
Lenny Rachitsky：我现在很好奇你的历史伟人名单中有哪些，但我不会去那里。
We're going to keep going.
我们将继续前进。
What's a favorite product you've recently discovered that you really love?
您最近发现的最喜欢且真正喜欢的产品是什么？
Peter Deng: I'm just going to go with Granola because I think that we talked about this before, but this has been a superpower for me and I have a lot of commute time now.
Peter Deng：我会选择格兰诺拉麦片，因为我想我们之前讨论过这个问题，但这对我来说是一种超能力，我现在有很多通勤时间。
What I do is I just do a single player mode.
我所做的只是做单人模式。
I go up and I start thinking about and brainstorming about sort of ideas or theses I have for investing or whatnot, and I get to where I'm going and boom, they're organized in a more cogent way and oftentimes ways that I didn't even think about articulating them.
我上去，开始思考和集思广益，思考我对投资或其他什么的想法或论文，然后我到达了我要去的地方，然后蓬勃发展，它们以一种更令人信服的方式组织起来，而且常常是我什至没有考虑过阐明它们的方式。
So it goes through the process of forming words, but it also helps with that assistance and I think it's a beautiful product on many different levels.
所以它经历了形成单词的过程，但它也有助于这种帮助，我认为它在许多不同层面上都是一个漂亮的产品。
Lenny Rachitsky: Wow.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：哇。
Granola's killing it at this category recently, and I'll give a shout-out, you get a year free of Granola if you become a yearly subscriber of my newsletter, which is not just for you, but your entire team, they gave an incredible deal.
格兰诺拉麦片最近在这一类别中大放异彩，我要大声疾呼，如果你成为我的时事通讯的年度订阅者，你将获得一年的免费格兰诺拉麦片，这不仅适合你，而且适合你的整个团队，他们提供了令人难以置信的优惠。
Peter Deng: Is that true?
邓彼得：是这样吗？
I didn't know that.
我不知道。
Peter Deng: Okay, well I'll tell you, I was not compensated for that little pitch there, that's genuine right there.
邓彼得：好吧，我告诉你，我并没有因为那个小小的推销而得到补偿，那是真的。
Lenny Rachitsky: I'm also not compensated.
Lenny Rachitsky：我也没有得到补偿。
Yeah.
是的。
If you go to lennysnewsletter.com and click bundle, you'll see a way to get it.
如果您访问 lennysnewsletter.com 并单击“捆绑”，您将看到一种获取它的方法。
Love the product, use it all the time.
喜欢这个产品，一直使用它。
I should be using it for these interviews and then I could have a whole summary ready to go.
我应该在这些采访中使用它，然后我就可以准备好完整的摘要。
Okay, next question.
好的，下一个问题。
Do you have a favorite life motto that you often come back to in work or in life?
您在工作或生活中是否有最喜欢的人生格言？
Peter Deng: Yes.
邓彼得：是的。
This is actually something that my dad taught me.
这其实是我爸爸教我的。
It's a saying that is in Chinese.
这是中国的一句话。
It actually rhymes in Chinese but kind of almost rhymes in English.
它实际上在中文中押韵，但在英语中几乎押韵。
And it goes something like this in English which is if you move a tree, it dies, but if you move a person, he thrives.
英语里有这样一句话：如果你移动一棵树，它就会死掉，但如果你移动一个人，他就会茁壮成长。
And I think it's a really interesting thing I keep on coming back to, and this goes back to why for me it's just the joy of learning and trying new experiences and being at different companies that I've been very fortunate to be at.
我认为这是一件非常有趣的事情，我不断地回顾，这又回到了为什么对我来说，学习和尝试新体验以及在不同的公司工作是我非常幸运的乐趣。
I really think that that's how you should live life is just to kind of experience these different experiences.
我真的认为这就是你应该如何生活，只是去体验这些不同的经历。
And it's kind of poetic to be like, yeah, unfortunately for trees, you can't really move them after a while.
这是一种诗意的感觉，是的，不幸的是，对于树木来说，一段时间后你就无法真正移动它们了。
But for humans, I think that you move them around and we get different travel experiences and we get different life experiences when we go to different jobs, and I think that makes life really worth living.
但对于人类来说，我认为你让他们到处走动，我们会得到不同的旅行体验，当我们从事不同的工作时，我们会得到不同的生活体验，我认为这让生活变得真正有价值。
Lenny Rachitsky: I always think about what I would answer to this question, and there's a few, but one is something I always come back to when my wife and I are deciding to do something is choose adventure.
Lenny Rachitsky：我总是思考如何回答这个问题，有几个问题，但当我和我的妻子决定做某件事是选择冒险时，我总是会回想起一个问题。
Similar sentiment.
类似的心情。
Final question.
最后一个问题。
So you've now moved from product leader to investor, so I just want to give you a chance to tell people what kind of stuff you're looking for.
所以你现在已经从产品领导者转变为投资者，所以我只想给你一个机会告诉人们你正在寻找什么样的东西。
So you moved now, investing in startups.
所以你现在搬家了，投资初创公司。
What sort of startups are you looking for?
您正在寻找什么样的初创公司？
Who should reach out if they're interested in-
如果他们感兴趣的话应该联系-
Peter Deng: Well, I appreciate that opportunity.
邓彼得：嗯，我很感激这个机会。
Look, for me, I think it's been very clear.
听着，对我来说，我认为这已经非常清楚了。
I just love working with great people and for me, investing is just the ability to support more amazing founders.
我只是喜欢与优秀的人一起工作，对我来说，投资就是支持更多优秀创始人的能力。
I've always been drawn to the founder archetype, like working closely with Zach or with Travis or Howie, Brendan at Oculus, and folks at Opening Eye, I think there's this amazing sort of visionary person that I love supporting in one way or another.
我一直被创始人原型所吸引，比如与 Zach、Travis 或 Howie、Oculus 的 Brendan 以及 Opening Eye 的人们密切合作，我认为我喜欢以某种方式支持这种令人惊叹的有远见的人。
And I've supported them mainly from the inside as a product leader, but for me it's just finding those amazing founders.
我主要作为产品领导者从内部支持他们，但对我来说，这只是找到那些了不起的创始人。
In this current role, I get to work with many founders at the same time.
在目前的职位上，我可以同时与许多创始人合作。
And just two days ago I had meaningful calls, product jams with three different founders in three different industries, and that kind of keeps my mind super alive.
就在两天前，我与三个不同行业的三位不同创始人进行了有意义的电话会议和产品交流会，这让我的思维保持活跃。
So that's kind of why I'm doing what I'm doing now, and I would love to find some more of those amazing thought partners and people that I can just help out if I can.
这就是我现在所做的事情的原因，我很想找到更多那些出色的思想伙伴和人们，如果可以的话，我可以提供帮助。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。
Stage and market, anything there for folks of like, okay, he's a fit, not a fit.
舞台和市场，任何东西都适合人们，好吧，他适合，不适合。
Peter Deng: Absolutely.
邓彼得：当然。
So I would say early stage seed, seed plus and A is where I really get excited.
所以我想说早期种子、种子加和 A 是我真正感到兴奋的地方。
I feel like I am able to help folks see the next stage.
我觉得我能够帮助人们看到下一阶段。
I've seen a lot of movies in my life in my career, so it's like, oh, great, I can definitely see this extrapolating out.
在我的职业生涯中，我看过很多电影，所以，哦，太棒了，我绝对可以推断出这一点。
You'd have to convince me of the future, and then it's really fun to be able to jam and help support if I can in how you scale from the one to 10 and 10 to a hundred.
你必须让我相信未来，然后如果我可以的话，能够在你如何从 1 扩展到 10 以及 10 到 10 的过程中提供帮助和支持，那真的很有趣。
So that's really big.
所以这真的很大。
Peter Deng: And then in terms of what I look for it's the two things I said before, in this day and age, there's so many amazing things that's going to be built.
邓彼得：然后就我所寻找的东西而言，就是我之前说过的两件事，在当今这个时代，将会有很多令人惊奇的事情被建造出来。
One is do you have unique data and do you have a data flywheel?
一是你有独特的数据吗？你有数据飞轮吗？
Two, do you have a really crafted workflow that you can really get after?
第二，你有一个真正可以实现的精心设计的工作流程吗？
And I guess third, do you have that insight of what product things actually matter and also which ones don't?
我想第三，您是否了解哪些产品真正重要，哪些不重要？
And then how do you actually go and expand upon that?
那么你实际上如何去扩展它呢？
So yeah, really excited to meet a bunch more founders, whether it comes from here or somewhere else.
所以，是的，很高兴见到更多的创始人，无论他们来自这里还是其他地方。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, so final question and it's how do folks reach out if they want to actually talk to you about this and how can listeners be useful to you?
Lenny Rachitsky：好的，最后一个问题是，如果人们想真正与你谈论这个问题，他们如何联系你，以及听众如何对你有用？
Peter Deng: Thank you for the question.
邓彼得：谢谢你的提问。
I am an introvert, so I'm really kind of silent on a lot of social media.
我是一个内向的人，所以我在很多社交媒体上都保持沉默。
I have accounts on X and Threads, but really I think LinkedIn is the network of choice for me.
我在 X 和 Threads 上都有帐户，但实际上我认为 LinkedIn 是我选择的网络。
I want to be able to passively consume and learn about what's happening.
我希望能够被动地消费并了解正在发生的事情。
How listeners can be helpful, I just want to learn.
听众如何提供帮助，我只是想学习。
What are you all thinking about?
你们都在想什么？
What are some of the insights you're seeing?
您看到了哪些见解？
One of the analogies I have about AI in this day and age is that it's this really interesting new element that humanity has discovered.
我对当今时代人工智能的类比之一是，它是人类发现的非常有趣的新元素。
And what's awesome is that humanity is also very creative.
令人惊叹的是人类也非常有创造力。
And so what humanity does with this new element, I'm fascinated by, and you can tell the founders who've actually played with this element because they have this innate sense of what this thing can do and can't do, and I'm just looking to be inspired by the creativity of all you all out there.
因此，人类如何利用这个新元素，我很着迷，你可以告诉那些真正使用过这个元素的创始人，因为他们对这个东西能做什么和不能做什么有一种与生俱来的感觉，我只是想从你们所有人的创造力中得到启发。
Lenny Rachitsky: Wow, that's such a cool way of thinking about it.
Lenny Rachitsky：哇，这是一个很酷的思考方式。
It's going to change my perspective on AI a little bit.
这将稍微改变我对人工智能的看法。
Peter, this was incredible.
彼得，这太不可思议了。
I really appreciate you taking the time to share so much wisdom.
我真的很感谢您花时间分享这么多的智慧。
I know this is the first time you've done anything like this.
我知道这是你第一次做这样的事情。
I feel like this is going to help a lot of people in a lot of different ways.
我觉得这会以很多不同的方式帮助很多人。
I feel like we covered everything I wanted to cover, so just again, thank you for-
我觉得我们涵盖了我想要涵盖的所有内容，所以再次感谢您-
Peter Deng: Well, thank you for having me.
邓彼得：嗯，谢谢你邀请我。
This has been a real pleasure and hopefully some folks out there can get some learnings from this and find it useful, but that was my goal is to be able to share some things and hopefully it'll be helpful to some folks out there.
这真的很高兴，希望一些人可以从中学到一些东西并发现它有用，但我的目标是能够分享一些东西，希望它对一些人有所帮助。
So thank you.
所以谢谢你。
Thank you for the opportunity.
谢谢你给我这个机会。
Lenny Rachitsky: Thank you, Peter.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：谢谢你，彼得。
Bye everyone.
再见大家。
Thank you so much for listening.
非常感谢您的聆听。
If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.
如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。
Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.
另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。
You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.
您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。
See you in the next episode.
下一集见。