Founder-led sales | Pete Kazanjy (Founding Sales, Atrium)

Pete Kazanjy: The thing that I just like to encourage founders and product managers and what have you is just don't be afraid of sales.

Pete Kazanjy：我想鼓励创始人和产品经理的就是不要害怕销售。

There's a lot of people out there who would love to tell you a story that it's magical or like, "Oh, you've got to be a born seller," things like that and it's really not.

有很多人愿意给你讲一个神奇的故事，或者“哦，你必须成为一名天生的卖家”之类的故事，但事实并非如此。

Those people are just talking their book, if you will, and so just getting good at those behaviors, it's going to benefit you in a myriad of ways.

如果你愿意的话，这些人只是在谈论他们的书，所以只要善于这些行为，它就会在很多方面使你受益。

Lenny: Welcome to Lenny's Podcast, I'm Lenny, and my goal here is to help you get better at the craft of building and growing products.

莱尼：欢迎来到莱尼的播客，我是莱尼，我的目标是帮助您更好地构建和种植产品。

Today my guest is Pete Kazanjy.

今天我的嘉宾是皮特·卡赞吉。

Pete is the author of my single favorite book on sales, called Founding Sales, which I point every B2B founder to.

皮特是我最喜欢的一本关于销售的书的作者，名为《Founding Sales》，我向每个 B2B 创始人推荐这本书。

He also runs a huge community of salespeople called Modern Sales Pros.

他还管理着一个名为“现代销售专家”的庞大销售人员社区。

He's also the CEO and founder of Atrium, which is a SaaS product that helps you make your sales team more efficient through analytics and data.

他还是 Atrium 的首席执行官和创始人，Atrium 是一款 SaaS 产品，可帮助您通过分析和数据提高销售团队的效率。

In our conversation, we focus on three things.

在我们的谈话中，我们关注三件事。

One, why founders should be doing sales themselves for a long time before hiring your first salesperson and also when it's time to hire that first salesperson, we get into how to hire for your first salesperson, what to look for in their profile and the most common mistakes people make, and finally, we cover a bunch of tactical tips for getting better at sales.

第一，为什么创始人在雇用第一位销售人员之前应该自己进行很长一段时间的销售工作，并且当需要雇用第一位销售人员时，我们会介绍如何雇用您的第一位销售人员，在他们的个人资料中寻找什么以及人们最常犯的错误，最后，我们介绍了一系列提高销售的战术技巧。

Pete didn't come from a sales background and he learned everything by just doing it, learning, researching, and repeating.

皮特没有销售背景，他通过实践、学习、研究和重复学到了一切。

I know that you'll learn a ton from this conversation.

我知道你会从这次谈话中学到很多东西。

With that, I bring you Pete Kazanjy.

接下来，我为您带来皮特·卡赞吉 (Pete Kazanjy)。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Vanta, helping you streamline your security compliance to accelerate growth.

Lenny：本集由 Vanta 为您带来，可帮助您简化安全合规性以加速增长。

If your business stores any data in the cloud, then you've likely been asked or you're going to be asked about your SOC 2 compliance.

如果您的企业在云中存储任何数据，那么您可能会被询问或将被询问有关 SOC 2 合规性的问题。

SOC 2 is a way to prove your company's taking proper security measures to protect customer data and builds trust with customers and partners, especially those with serious security requirements.

SOC 2 是一种证明您的公司采取了适当的安全措施来保护客户数据并与客户和合作伙伴（尤其是那些有严格安全要求的客户和合作伙伴）建立信任的方法。

Also, if you want to sell to the enterprise, proving security is essential.

此外，如果你想向企业销售产品，证明安全性至关重要。

SOC 2 can either open the door for bigger and better deals or it can put your business on hold.

SOC 2 可以为更大、更好的交易打开大门，也可以让您的业务暂停。

If you don't have a SOC 2, there's a good chance you won't even get a seat at the table.

如果您没有 SOC 2，您很可能甚至无法获得席位。

Beginning a SOC to your port can be a huge burden, especially for startups.

在您的端口上启动 SOC 可能是一个巨大的负担，尤其是对于初创公司而言。

It's time-consuming, tedious, and expensive.

这是耗时、乏味且昂贵的。

Lenny: Enter Vanta.

莱尼：万塔上。

Over 3,000 fast growing companies use Vanta to automate up to 90% of the work involved with SOC 2.

超过 3,000 家快速发展的公司使用 Vanta 自动化 SOC 2 涉及的高达 90% 的工作。

Vanta can get you ready for security audits in weeks instead of months, less than a third of the time that it usually takes.

Vanta 可以让您在几周而不是几个月内为安全审核做好准备，不到通常所需时间的三分之一。

For a limited time, Lenny's Podcast listeners get $1,000 off Vanta.

在有限的时间内，Lenny's Podcast 听众可享受 Vanta 1,000 美元优惠。

Just go to vanta.com/lenny, that's V-A-N-T-A.com/lenny, to learn more and to claim your discount.

只需访问vanta.com/lenny（即V-A-N-T-A.com/lenny）即可了解更多信息并申请折扣。

Get started today.

今天就开始吧。

Hey, Ashley, head of marketing at Flatfile.

嘿，Ashley，Flatfile 的营销主管。

How many B2B SaaS companies would you estimate need to import CSV files from their customers?

您估计有多少家 B2B SaaS 公司需要从其客户导入 CSV 文件？

Lenny: How many of them screw that up and what happens when they do?

莱尼：有多少人把事情搞砸了？当他们这样做时会发生什么？

Ashley Mulligan: Well, based on our data, about a third of people will consider switching to another company after just one bad experience during onboarding.

阿什利·穆里根：嗯，根据我们的数据，大约三分之一的人在入职期间经历过一次糟糕的经历后就会考虑跳槽到另一家公司。

So, if your CSV importer doesn't work right, which is super common considering customer files are chock full of unexpected data and formatting, they'll leave.

因此，如果您的 CSV 导入器无法正常工作（考虑到客户文件充满了意外数据和格式，这种情况非常常见），他们就会离开。

Lenny: I am 0% surprised to hear that.

Lenny：听到这个消息我感到 0% 惊讶。

I've consistently seen that improving onboarding as one of the highest leverage opportunities for both signup conversion and increasing long-term retention.

我一直认为，改善入职是注册转化和提高长期保留率的最高杠杆机会之一。

Getting people to their aha moment more quickly and reliably is so incredibly important.

让人们更快、更可靠地进入顿悟时刻非常重要。

Ashley Mulligan: Totally.

阿什利·穆里根：完全可以。

It's incredible to see how our customers like Square, Spotify, and Zora are able to grow their businesses on top of Flatfile.

看到 Square、Spotify 和 Zora 等客户如何能够在 Flatfile 上发展业务，真是令人难以置信。

It's because flawless data onboarding acts like a catalyst to get them and their customers where they need to go faster.

这是因为完美的数据导入就像催化剂一样，让他们及其客户更快地到达需要的地方。

Lenny: If you'd like to learn more or get started, check out Flatfile at flatfile.com/lenny.

Lenny：如果您想了解更多信息或开始使用，请访问 flatfile.com/lenny 查看 Flatfile。

Pete, welcome to the podcast.

皮特，欢迎来到播客。

Pete Kazanjy: Hey, Lenny, super awesome to see you.

Pete Kazanjy：嘿，Lenny，见到你真是太棒了。

Lenny: Even more awesome on my part.

莱尼：对我来说更棒。

Ever since I launched this podcast, I have always wanted to have you on it, we're finally here.

自从我推出这个播客以来，我一直想让你加入，我们终于来了。

We've been online buddies for a few years now, ever since I discovered your book, Founding Sales, which we're going to talk about, and it's just been a lot of fun knowing you, so thank you again for being here.

自从我发现你的书《Founding Sales》（我们将要讨论的）以来，我们已经成为网上好友好几年了，认识你很有趣，所以再次感谢你来到这里。

Pete Kazanjy: The quick story was Lenny had shipped his different genres of marketplaces and how to start the liquidity and growth and whatever and I was obsessed with it, and then somehow, I ran into you at Brianne Kimmel's SaaS School.

Pete Kazanjy：简单来说，Lenny 推出了不同类型的市场，以及如何启动流动性和增长等等，我对此很着迷，然后不知何故，我在 Brianne Kimmel 的 SaaS 学校遇到了你。

I gave a presentation on Founder-led Selling and there was a scrum of people around me and I was talking about amazing writers and amazing content online and I referenced the series, and then you raised your hand and you were like, "That was me," and I was like, "What?

我做了一个关于创始人主导的销售的演讲，我周围有一大群人，我在网上谈论出色的作家和出色的内容，我引用了这个系列，然后你举起手，你说，“那是我，”我说，“什么？

You're amazing." And then we got beers and now, we're happily ever after.

你太棒了。”然后我们喝了啤酒，现在，我们从此过上了幸福的生活。

Lenny: Look at us now.

莱尼：看看我们现在。

And then you encouraged me to make a book out of that post, which I have not yet done, maybe one day.

然后你鼓励我用那篇文章写一本书，我还没有完成，也许有一天。

Eventually.: So, we're going to be talking a lot about sales and a lot of the stuff that you cover in your book.

最终：所以，我们将讨论很多有关销售的内容以及您在书中介绍的很多内容。

Before we get into it, could you just take a minute to share a little bit about your background and some of the wonderful things you've done, to give folks a sense of your experience in the sales world?

在我们开始讨论之前，您能否花一点时间分享一下您的背景以及您所做的一些精彩的事情，让人们了解您在销售领域的经验？

Pete Kazanjy: I think probably the most important thing to characterize for folks is that I don't actually have a background in sales originally, which were most sales leaders and sellers come from, they graduate from school or a BDR, become an AE, AE manager, or a BDR manager, and then go on to sales leadership.

Pete Kazanjy：我认为对人们来说最重要的特点可能是，我实际上并没有销售背景，大多数销售领导者和销售人员都来自销售背景，他们从学校或 BDR 毕业，成为 AE、AE 经理或 BDR 经理，然后继续担任销售领导。

My background's actually in product marketing and product management.

我的背景实际上是产品营销和产品管理。

I started my tech career at VMware back in the day, tons of amazing, fun VMware diaspora.

我当时在 VMware 开始了我的技术职业生涯，那里有很多令人惊奇、有趣的 VMware 侨民。

And then I started a software company called TalentBin, it was a recruiting software company in, geez Louise, 2009.

然后我创办了一家名为 TalentBin 的软件公司，这是一家招聘软件公司，天哪，路易斯，2009 年。

We quickly realized that, "Man, this B2B software stuff doesn't sell itself, irrespective of maybe what people say on the internet," at least back then.

我们很快意识到，“伙计，无论人们在互联网上怎么说，这种 B2B 软件都不会自我推销”，至少在当时是这样。

So, I had to be our first seller, our sales manager, our first sales leader, and that's where I learned how to do sales.

所以，我必须成为我们的第一位销售人员、我们的销售经理、我们的第一位销售领导，这就是我学习如何进行销售的地方。

Pete Kazanjy: Also, I just realized, "Man, this isn't rocket surgery, anyone can learn this.

Pete Kazanjy：另外，我刚刚意识到，“伙计，这不是火箭手术，任何人都可以学会这一点。

If I can learn this, other people can learn this, even though there's not documentation on it." So, the software company was eventually acquired by Monster Worldwide in 2014 and then I wrote a book on sales for founders and other first-time sellers, it's called Founding Sales.

如果我能学到这一点，其他人也能学到这一点，即使没有相关文档。”所以，这家软件公司最终在 2014 年被 Monster Worldwide 收购，然后我为创始人和其他首次卖家写了一本关于销售的书，叫做《Founding Sales》。

Mainly, it was the book that I wish I had, rather than having to learn by a narrative from the first round capital portfolio and what have you.

主要是，这是我希望拥有的书，而不是必须通过第一轮资本投资组合的叙述以及你拥有的东西来学习。

And then subsequent to that, I started what became the nation's largest sales operations and leadership community, it's called Modern Sales Pros.

随后，我创立了全美最大的销售运营和领导力社区，名为“现代销售专业人士”。

It's 30,000 sales operations, sales leaders, et cetera.

其中包括 30,000 名销售人员、销售主管等等。

And then started a new software company called Atrium that makes data-driven sales management software, and then here I am.

然后创办了一家名为 Atrium 的新软件公司，生产数据驱动的销售管理软件，然后我就在这里了。

So, I think a little bit about sales, turns out modern sales, not that old sales, modern sales.

所以，我想了一下销售，结果是现代销售，而不是旧的销售，现代销售。

Lenny: Ooh, I'm curious to hear what that is.

莱尼：哦，我很好奇那是什么。

But before I ask you that question, I just wanted to mention your book, Founding Sales, is the book I give every founder that is trying to figure out sales.

但在我问你这个问题之前，我只想提一下你的书《Founding Sales》，这是我送给每一位试图计算销售额的创始人的书。

Every time I give it to them or point them to even your site that has it all for free there, they're always just like, "Holy shit, this is exactly what I needed," so we're going to be covering a lot of that stuff in our little chat.

每次我把它给他们，或者把他们指向你的网站，甚至免费提供所有这些东西时，他们总是会说，“天哪，这正是我需要的，”所以我们将在我们的小聊天中涵盖很多这样的东西。

Lenny: Can you actually just briefly talk about what is modern sales versus what you called traditional sales or old-school sales?

莱尼：您能否简单地谈谈什么是现代销售与您所谓的传统销售或老式销售？

Pete Kazanjy: Oh, I just think that there's a little bit of a mindset change.

Pete Kazanjy：哦，我只是认为心态发生了一些变化。

It's a little bit related to some of the reasons why founders and other folks maybe have this perception of sales be like, "Ew, sales, ugh" because people, their only experience with sales is Glengarry Glen Ross or movies with a sleazy used car salesman and stuff like that, whereas the way to think about what sellers are is they're the microeconomic agents in the market that bring supply to demand rather than waiting for demand to find supply.

这与创始人和其他人对销售有这种看法的一些原因有关，“呃，销售，呃”，因为人们，他们唯一的销售经验是格伦加里·格伦·罗斯（Glengarry Glen Ross）或有肮脏的二手车推销员的电影之类的东西，而思考卖家的方式是，他们是市场上的微观经济代理人，为需求带来供应，而不是等待需求找到供应。

They have supply in their back pocket and they run around trying to find people who ought to have the demand, maybe they have the demand right now, maybe they don't realize that they have the demand, and then they elucidate to them why they ought to have the demand.

他们的后兜里有供应，他们四处寻找应该有需求的人，也许他们现在有需求，也许他们没有意识到自己有需求，然后他们向他们解释为什么他们应该有需求。

Pete Kazanjy: So, A, that process is very important from a technology deployment standpoint and also, B, it's very measurable, especially in a modern environment with modern CRMs and also all the digital activity that we do, email, calendar, phone, Zoom, et cetera, all this information is now being recorded such that you can then measure, manage, and improve behavior.

Pete Kazanjy：所以，A，从技术部署的角度来看，这个过程非常重要，而且，B，它非常可衡量，特别是在拥有现代 CRM 的现代环境中，以及我们所做的所有数字活动，电子邮件、日历、电话、Zoom 等，所有这些信息现在都被记录下来，以便您可以衡量、管理和改进行为。

So, very similar to how back in the day, you do product analytics by licking your fingers and sticking it in the wind, and then Mixpanels showed up, then Amplitude showed up, then so on and so forth, and the same is the case in sales, as well.

所以，与过去非常相似，你通过舔手指并将其粘在风中来进行产品分析，然后 Mixpanels 出现，然后 Amplitude 出现，然后依此类推，销售也是如此。

So, modern sales is a more thoughtful, operational, rigorous, analytical bent, it's been around for a while.

所以，现代销售是一种更加深思熟虑、更具操作性、严谨性和分析性的倾向，它已经存在了一段时间了。

It's one of those things, the future is here, it just wasn't widely distributed, but now it's being much more distributed and much more embraced.

这是其中之一，未来就在这里，它只是没有广泛分布，但现在它的分布更加广泛，也更加被接受。

Like the pre-Moneyball moment in sports and baseball to the post-Moneyball moment, we're now just flipping over there, so that's the delta.

就像体育和棒球运动中的《点球成金》前的时刻到《点球成金》后的时刻一样，我们现在只是翻转到那里，所以这就是三角洲。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

I definitely want to talk about ways to get better at sales and things you've learned about just how to improve at sales, but to set a little bit foundation for that conversation, I want to talk about founder-led sales.

我确实想谈谈如何提高销售水平，以及你学到的有关如何提高销售水平的知识，但为了为这次对话奠定一点基础，我想谈谈创始人主导的销售。

You touched on this topic, your book is basically named after this concept of founder-led sales.

你谈到了这个话题，你的书基本上是以创始人主导销售的概念命名的。

Can you talk about what that is, why it's so important, and maybe why founders often get this wrong?

您能谈谈这是什么，为什么它如此重要，以及为什么创始人经常犯这个错误？

Pete Kazanjy: The way that I think about the book, Founding Sales, I like to think of it as the sequel to Eric Eric Ries's The Lean Startup or Steve Blank's Four Steps to the Epiphany or Startup Owner's Manual or whatever, where if you think about the stages, and this is all B2B, if you think about the stages that a product goes through, it's one, you've got to know what problem you're solving and validate that, and it's got to be real.

Pete Kazanjy：我对《Founding Sales》这本书的看法是，我喜欢将其视为 Eric Eric Ries 的《精益创业》或 Steve Blank 的《顿悟四步曲》或《创业者手册》等书的续集，如果你考虑阶段，这都是 B2B，如果你考虑产品经历的阶段，它就是一个，你必须知道你正在解决什么问题并验证它，并且它必须是真实的。

It can't be like, "Oh, well, I thought I had this problem," it's got to be validated.

它不能像“哦，好吧，我以为我遇到了这个问题”，它必须得到验证。

That's customer development, that's customer research, and that's more of a product management function.

这就是客户开发，这就是客户研究，这更多的是产品管理职能。

And then there's building the minimum feature set in order to prove that maybe technology can fit to this problem and solve it.

然后构建最小的功能集，以证明技术也许可以适应这个问题并解决它。

Pete Kazanjy: That's how we create value as technologists, is piecing together technology and code or bits and atoms and what have you in order to solve a problem that people have.

Pete Kazanjy：这就是我们作为技术专家创造价值的方式，即将技术和代码或比特和原子以及你所拥有的东西拼凑在一起，以解决人们遇到的问题。

But then the next step is like, "Cool.

但下一步就像，“酷。

Now, I've got to get someone to pay for this and I've got to do that in a reliable fashion and I've got to do it in a scalable fashion," and so there's a little bit of a loop there.

现在，我必须让某人为此付费，我必须以可靠的方式做到这一点，并且我必须以可扩展的方式做到这一点，”所以这里有一点循环。

It's not like, "The product's done, throw it over the wall, have fun, kids." It's a loop, where the minimum viable version of your product is probably going to suck and then in order to get to the minimum valuable step, you've got to be interfacing with a lot of customers and that's a sales behavior, getting in front of people and being like, "Hey, I think you probably have this problem if you look like these other folks right here."

这不像是“产品完成了，把它扔到墙上，玩得开心，孩子们。”这是一个循环，你的产品的最低可行版本可能会很糟糕，然后为了达到最低价值的步骤，你必须与很多客户打交道，这是一种销售行为，在人们面前说，“嘿，我想如果你看起来像这里的其他人，你可能会遇到这个问题。”

Pete Kazanjy: The point is is that you can't outsource that behavior, the founder's got to do that stuff.

Pete Kazanjy：关键是你不能外包这种行为，创始人必须做这些事情。

A lot of people ask me that question, "Well, I suck at sales," or, "I'm afraid to talk to people," or, "Interfacing with non-friendly parties makes me uncomfortable." The way to think about it is, I forget who the person was who said, "Startups versus incumbents is a race between can innovation get to distribution before distribution can get to innovation?" So, this is a related concept where as a founder, it's going to be way easier for you to get good, or minimally viable good, at selling by having interactions with non-friendly parties and having commercial conversations and asking for money in exchange for the value delivery.

很多人问我这个问题，“嗯，我在销售方面很糟糕”，或者“我害怕与人交谈”，或者“与不友好的团体打交道让我感到不舒服。”思考这个问题的方式是，我忘记了是谁说的，“初创公司与现有企业之间的竞争是创新能否在分销实现创新之前实现分销？”因此，这是一个相关的概念，作为创始人，通过与不友好的各方进行互动、进行商业对话并索要金钱以换取价值交付，你将更容易获得良好的或最低限度可行的销售能力。

Pete Kazanjy: It's going to be easier for you to do that than it is for some third party to become as expert at the subject matter that you're tackling that you are.

Pete Kazanjy：对你来说，这比让某个第三方成为你正在处理的主题的专家更容易。

Because as a founder, early on, use Atrium as an example, we make data-driven sales management software, which it exists to help sales managers and teams use metrics and data to improve the performance of their reps.

因为作为创始人，早期以 Atrium 为例，我们制作了数据驱动的销售管理软件，该软件的存在是为了帮助销售经理和团队使用指标和数据来提高其销售代表的绩效。

The way I think about it is Datadog-y Amplitude-y, but for your sales reps.

我的想法是 Datadog-y Amplitude-y，但是对于你的销售代表来说。

I'm probably the expert in sales analytics in the world, and so back in 2016 and 2017 when we were doing this, put aside the fact that I already know how to do minimum viable selling, if I had tried to get somebody else expert at that in order for them to go out and do that in the market, that would have been not good.

我可能是世界上销售分析方面的专家，所以早在 2016 年和 2017 年，当我们这样做时，抛开我已经知道如何进行最低限度可行销售这一事实不谈，如果我试图让其他人在这方面专家，以便他们走出去在市场上这样做，那就不好了。

Pete Kazanjy: This is why Steve Blank always talks about startups can't get to scale without firing their first VP of sales, it's oftentimes because they skip that step, and so the founder's like, "Hey, man, I'm going to pour a little bit of sales on this, hire some sales leader or whatever, some sort of seller, and outsource this." You really just can't do that, not for the first couple dozen customers, it's just not tenable.

Pete Kazanjy：这就是为什么 Steve Blank 总是说初创公司如果不解雇第一任销售副总裁就无法扩大规模，通常是因为他们跳过了这一步，所以创始人会说，“嘿，伙计，我要在这上面投入一点销售，聘请一些销售领导者或其他什么人，某种销售人员，然后将其外包。”你真的不能这样做，尤其是对于最初的几十个客户来说，这是站不住脚的。

You lose that feedback loop, you lose the learnings of whether or not your message fits the market, all that sort of stuff.

你失去了反馈循环，你失去了关于你的信息是否适合市场的知识，诸如此类的东西。

You're playing a game of telephone with that with a third party seller versus even you just want to keep that in one brain to start, then package it, and then when you have a repeatable while loop, a selling while loop, then package it and hand it to someone else.

您正在与第三方卖家玩电话游戏，而您只是想将其保留在一个大脑中以开始，然后将其打包，然后当您有一个可重复的 while 循环，一个销售 while 循环时，然后打包并将其交给其他人。

So, that's my diatribe on why founders have to do this.

所以，这就是我对创始人必须这样做的原因的谩骂。

Lenny: I was going to try to summarize the reasons that you should be doing this and it sounds like there's so many.

莱尼：我想尝试总结一下你应该这样做的原因，听起来有很多。

One is figure out what you should actually be building, that's a reason founders should be selling, two is learn how to position and pitch and sell, three is figure out what you could teach your salesperson when you hire them.

一是弄清楚你实际上应该构建什么，这是创始人应该销售的原因，二是学习如何定位、推销和销售，三是弄清楚当你雇用销售人员时你可以教他们什么。

Is that a summary of why you should be selling as a founder for a while?

这是你为什么应该作为创始人出售一段时间的总结吗？

Pete Kazanjy: Yeah, for sure.

皮特·卡赞吉：是的，当然。

One, it's going to help you with your product development because you're not going to have that abstracted, for sure, two, you're going to be the person who's going to figure out how to talk about it in an effective way, and then three, it's going to make it such that you can package that up such that other human...

第一，它将帮助你进行产品开发，因为你肯定不会那么抽象，第二，你将成为找出如何以有效方式谈论它的人，然后第三，它将使它成为这样，你可以将其打包成其他人......

Because that's the way that B2B startups scale, is it's not WhatsApp or Twitter or Airbnb or whatever, where you have this scalability via marketing, the way that B2B organizations scale primarily is by adding more salespeople who then have customer-facing meetings with prospects.

因为这就是 B2B 初创公司扩展规模的方式，而不是 WhatsApp、Twitter 或 Airbnb 等，你可以通过营销获得这种扩展性，B2B 组织扩展的主要方式是增加更多销售人员，然后与潜在客户进行面向客户的会议。

Pete Kazanjy: And then you cap out with the number of hours that are in the week, there's only four or 50 hours in the week, especially as a seller because you interface with other people during business hours, and so the way that you scale up is by just adding more salespeople.

Pete Kazanjy：然后你就限制了一周的工作时间，一周只有四到 50 个小时，特别是作为一名卖家，因为你在工作时间与其他人打交道，所以扩大规模的方法就是增加更多的销售人员。

So, that's why packaging that up is really important, because then you're going to shove it into the brains of two more salespeople, and then once they're successful, you're going to go to four, and then once they're successful, you're going to go to eight, and then once they're successful, you're going to go to 16.

所以，这就是为什么打包非常重要，因为你要把它塞进另外两个销售人员的大脑中，然后一旦他们成功了，你就会去到四个，一旦他们成功了，你就会去到八个，然后一旦他们成功了，你就会去到 16 个。

Lenny: You talk about this while loop concept, which I love.

Lenny：你谈到了 while 循环的概念，我很喜欢这个概念。

What are signs that it's time to hire your first salesperson?

有哪些迹象表明是时候聘请第一位销售人员了？

It begs the question, when do I do this?

这就引出了一个问题，我什么时候这样做？

Pete Kazanjy: I'm not a software engineer, but I like to use technical metaphors with technical audiences because I think it's helpful, so it's like when it runs on your local, now it's time to see if it reproduces over here, so if it reliably runs on your local and it doesn't air out, so then what would the definition of not erroring out look like?

Pete Kazanjy：我不是软件工程师，但我喜欢对技术受众使用技术隐喻，因为我认为这很有帮助，所以就像当它在本地运行时，现在是时候看看它是否在这里重现，所以如果它可靠地在本地运行并且不会播出，那么不出错的定义会是什么样子？

So, generally speaking, it is to contingent on your sales motion, but it's going to be that you can reliably, at a pretty okay win rate, so maybe 15% or 20% or 25%, turn first meetings into eventual customers and do that in a reliable fashion.

所以，一般来说，这取决于你的销售行动，但你可以可靠地，以相当不错的获胜率，所以可能是 15% 或 20% 或 25%，将第一次会议变成最终客户，并以可靠的方式做到这一点。

It's not like, "I engaged 10 arms-length parties and I got two customers closed." It's like, "Hey, that's great.

这不像是“我参加了 10 个保持距离的聚会，结果却让两个客户成交了”。就像，“嘿，那太好了。

That's a good start.

这是一个好的开始。

5X that, 10X that."

5 倍，10 倍。”

Pete Kazanjy: Take 50 at-bats, take 100 at-bats, and now that you know that you reliably, for every cohort of ten first meetings, what's known in sales land as opportunities, for every cohort of 10 that you engage, are you closing 1, are you closing 1.5, are you closing 2, or are you closing 2.5, if you're in there?

Pete Kazanjy：拿 50 次击球，拿 100 次击球，现在你知道你可靠地，对于每 10 次第一次会议的队列，在销售领域中所谓的机会，对于你参与的每 10 组，你是否关闭 1，你是否关闭 1.5，你是否关闭 2，或者你是否关闭 2.5，如果你在那里？

But if you're at like, "For every 30 I interact with, I close one," well, it seems like that's probably pretty inefficient, unless you're selling $500,000 deals or something like that.

但如果你是这样的，“每与我互动 30 个，我就会关闭一个”，那么，这似乎效率相当低，除非你销售的是 500,000 美元的交易或类似的东西。

So, it's at the point where it feels like it's statistically significant, it feels like it's repeatable, because what you're going to then do is now it feels like it's a safe bet to try to abstract that out to somebody else.

所以，现在感觉它具有统计显着性，感觉它是可重复的，因为你现在要做的就是尝试将其抽象给其他人，这是一个安全的选择。

Pete Kazanjy: Because the only way we're going to get to success is we're not going to have Lenny go and sell from morning, noon to night.

Pete Kazanjy：因为我们要取得成功的唯一方法就是我们不会让莱尼从早上、中午到晚上都去卖东西。

What we're going to do is we're going to take the information out of Lenny's brain and we're going to put it into slides and we're going to put it into scripts and we're going to put it into email templates and all that sort of stuff, and then we're going to shove that into the brain of two more reps and see if now we can get it to run in the cloud, in the sales cloud here.

我们要做的就是从莱尼的大脑中取出信息，将其放入幻灯片中，将其放入脚本中，将其放入电子邮件模板和所有类似的东西中，然后将其塞入另外两名代表的大脑中，看看现在是否可以让它在云中运行，在销售云中运行。

And then to start out, it may fail, the same way you're like, "Cool, it runs on my local.

然后一开始，它可能会失败，就像你说的那样，“酷，它在我的本地运行。

Uh-oh, it breaks over here.

呃哦，这里就断了。

Why?" And then that's the next stage is now you're figuring out how to get those other folks to sell as successfully as you have, and that becomes the next job.

为什么？”然后就是下一个阶段，现在你要弄清楚如何让其他人像你一样成功地销售，这就是下一个工作。

Pete Kazanjy: Actually, this is the presentation I gave at Brianne's SaaS School, if you Google it's just called Founder-led Selling, it's available online.

Pete Kazanjy：实际上，这是我在 Brianne 的 SaaS 学校所做的演示，如果你用 Google 搜索一下，它就被称为“创始人主导的销售”，它可以在网上找到。

Essentially, there's a bunch of stages in the B2B maturity journey and you have to go through them in order to get to the next one, if you jump stages, you're hosed.

本质上，B2B 成熟之旅有很多阶段，你必须经历这些阶段才能进入下一个阶段，如果你跳过阶段，你就会被淘汰。

So, in this case, if you know that you can reliably sell this yourself, that's great.

因此，在这种情况下，如果您知道自己可以可靠地销售该产品，那就太好了。

Then, the next thing to do is get at least a couple people reliably selling, as well as you, not 10, because you're never going to get 2 successful if you're trying to onboard 10 concurrently.

然后，接下来要做的就是至少让几个人可靠地进行销售，还有你，而不是 10 个人，因为如果你试图同时招募 10 个人，你永远不可能让 2 个人成功。

And then if you get those 2 successful, now you've earned the right to go to 4, 8, et cetera.

然后，如果您成功完成这 2 项任务，那么您现在就获得了进入 4 项、8 项任务等的权利。

Lenny: I love this heuristic that you shared that you want to get to about 15 to 25% of contacts closing to a customer.

Lenny：我喜欢您分享的这种启发式方法，即您希望与客户建立约 15% 到 25% 的联系。

I see you shaking your thumb.

我看到你在摇动拇指。

I think that's really useful.

我认为这真的很有用。

So, it's a bit less than a third and doing 50 to 100 attempts is roughly where you want to be?

那么，这比三分之一要少一点，并且进行 50 到 100 次尝试大致就是您想要的结果？

Pete Kazanjy: Yeah.

皮特·卡赞吉：是的。

Importantly, what you don't want to do is, and I think probably a lot of the product managers who like to listen to Lenny's Podcast here might appreciate this, is you want to bring on cohorts of users and then see what's going on, then learn, and then bring on new co cohorts of users.

重要的是，你不想做的是，我想很多喜欢听 Lenny 播客的产品经理可能会欣赏这一点，你想要吸引一批用户，然后看看发生了什么，然后学习，然后带来新的用户群体。

So, going and doing 100 at-bats and then being like, "Did it work or did it not?" Versus, "Hey, let's have 10 for prospect and try to get 10 first meetings," have all those interactions, see how your conversations land, see how the discovery questions are evoking the right response or not the right response, see how your slides land, see how your demo lands, all that sort of stuff.

所以，去做 100 次击球，然后问“这有效还是无效？”与“嘿，让我们有 10 个潜在客户，并尝试进行 10 次第一次会面”，进行所有这些互动，看看你的对话如何落地，看看发现问题如何引起正确或不正确的反应，看看你的幻灯片如何落地，看看你的演示如何落地，诸如此类的事情。

Pete Kazanjy: If it's working well and you're getting to the next stage, "This is great, I would love to introduce you to my boss," that's a good sign.

Pete Kazanjy：如果运行良好并且您正在进入下一阶段，“这很棒，我很乐意将您介绍给我的老板”，这是一个好兆头。

If it's like, "I'm just not getting it." Cool, back to the drawing board, versus doing 100 all at once and being like, "Now, did it work?" We want to break it up and then constantly just be iterating, iterating, iterating.

如果它就像“我只是不明白”。很酷，回到绘图板，而不是一次性完成 100 个然后问，“现在，它有效吗？”我们想要将其分解，然后不断地迭代、迭代、迭代。

Again, I think your audience might appreciate this, the way to think of a sales motion, so sales motion is a fancy-pants way of describing just all the things that you do in order to take a prospect and bring them through the sales process and then eventually close them.

再说一次，我认为你的听众可能会欣赏这一点，即思考销售动议的方式，因此销售动议是一种花哨的方式，描述你为吸引潜在客户并引导他们完成销售流程并最终关闭他们而所做的所有事情。

One helpful way to think about it is kind of like software and what you want to be doing is constantly updating it.

一种有用的思考方式是有点像软件，你想要做的就是不断更新它。

Oh, that was a really interesting question that the prospect asked right there, I didn't have a good answer for it and moreover, I didn't have a slide for it.

哦，这是一个非常有趣的问题，潜在客户就在那里问了，我没有一个好的答案，而且，我没有幻灯片。

Pete Kazanjy: You know what I should do?

Pete Kazanjy：你知道我应该做什么吗？

I should make a slide that handles that objection so I can show it to them visually and also, it'll help give me guardrails and a talk track and that'll be nice.

我应该制作一张幻灯片来处理该反对意见，这样我就可以直观地向他们展示它，而且，这将有助于为我提供护栏和谈话轨道，这会很好。

So, I'm going to do that and then I'm going to update the source code.

所以，我将这样做，然后更新源代码。

Now, my sales motion has been updated.

现在，我的销售动议已更新。

And then the next loop through, ideally the next time that person says, "Oh, I don't know, Lenny, it doesn't really sound like X, Y, Z," you're like, "Oh, a lot of people say that, but here, if you look over here, you can see this." "Oh yeah, that's a really good point." "Wonderful.

然后下一次循环，理想情况下当那个人说，“哦，我不知道，Lenny，这听起来不像 X，Y，Z，”你会说，“哦，很多人都这么说，但是在这里，如果你看这里，你可以看到这一点。” “哦，是的，这是一个非常好的观点。” “太棒了。

So, as the next step, let's go ahead and talk to your boss." So, now your sales motion has been updated and the collateral's been updated and now, we're being more effective sellers.

所以，下一步，让我们继续和你的老板谈谈。”所以，现在您的销售动议已经更新，抵押品也已经更新，现在，我们正在成为更有效的卖家。

You're just going to do that dozens and dozens and dozens and dozens and dozens of time before you have a repeatable sales motion.

在你提出可重复的销售动议之前，你只需要做几十次、几十次、几十次、几十次。

Lenny: What's interesting is with this heuristic, two-thirds of the time, it's not going to work out.

莱尼：有趣的是，这种启发式方法在三分之二的情况下是行不通的。

Lenny: So, a lot of times, they're going to be like, "Ah, I don't get this, leave me alone." Is there other leading indicators that tell you that you're improving, knowing that only a third or maybe a fifth of the time it'll work out?

莱尼：所以，很多时候，他们会说，“啊，我不明白，别打扰我。”是否有其他领先指标告诉您您正在进步，但知道只有三分之一或五分之一的时间会成功？

Is it talking to the boss off more often, what else do you look for?

是不是经常和老板说话，你还想看什么？

Pete Kazanjy: Yeah, exactly.

皮特·卡赞吉：是的，完全正确。

Totally.

完全。

So, what are the leading indicators of success?

那么，成功的先行指标是什么？

Because if you're only looking at lagging indicators, again, it's probably a it's a funnel on a new feature, so the opportunity is an at-bat or a potential transaction, and so usually what you do is you model out the stages in your opportunity.

因为如果你只关注滞后指标，那么它可能是一个新功能的漏斗，所以机会是一个正在执行的或潜在的交易，所以通常你所做的就是对你的机会的阶段进行建模。

So, generally, there will be different stages depending on the sales motion.

因此，一般来说，根据销售动作会有不同的阶段。

So, use Atrium as an example, we sell on customer data.

因此，以 Atrium 为例，我们销售客户数据。

It takes five minutes to turn on an Atrium account, it's really helpful for folks.

只需五分钟即可打开 Atrium 帐户，这对人们来说确实很有帮助。

They just sign in, they OAuth with Salesforce, great.

他们只需登录，即可通过 Salesforce 进行 OAuth，非常棒。

So, a really important stage in our sales motion is, we call it data light, has data been lit up?

所以，我们销售动作中一个真正重要的阶段是，我们称之为数据灯，数据被点亮了吗？

So, that's a stage, we have a discovery stage, we have a data light stage, we have what we call a preview stage, are we previewing it with the staff?

所以，这是一个阶段，我们有一个发现阶段，我们有一个数据灯阶段，我们有我们所说的预览阶段，我们是否与工作人员一起预览？

Then, we get to a commercial discussion.

然后，我们进行商业讨论。

Pete Kazanjy: So, you can measure how you're getting to those stages, which is somebody lands on whatever page that Lenny was in charge of at Airbnb and did they click on the right thing and do they get to the next thing and did they get to the next thing, get to the next thing?

Pete Kazanjy：所以，你可以衡量如何进入这些阶段，即某人登陆 Lenny 在 Airbnb 负责的任何页面，他们是否点击了正确的内容，他们是否进入了下一个目标，他们是否进入了下一个目标，进入了下一个目标？

So, in sales, it's kind of the same thing.

所以，在销售中，情况也是一样的。

So, the more sophisticated version of this is looking at stage conversions, what have you, the less sophisticated version of it, which early on, I think is an appropriate way of doing it, is like, "Hey, man, are we getting second dates?" So, just metaphorize it to Hinge or Coffee Meets Bagel or whatever the more recent one is, it's like, "Are we getting the second dates?

所以，更复杂的版本是着眼于舞台转换，你有什么，不太复杂的版本，我认为早期这是一种合适的做法，就像，“嘿，伙计，我们要进行第二次约会吗？”所以，把它比喻为铰链或咖啡遇见百吉饼或任何最近的一个，就像，“我们有第二次约会吗？

Are we getting the third dates?

我们还有第三次约会吗？

Because if we're not getting the second dates, probably something's amiss there."

因为如果我们没有得到第二次约会，可能是出了什么问题。”

Pete Kazanjy: So, what we want to do is we want to say, "Great, of all of our ten first meetings, how many gets to second meetings?" It would be great, the lagging indicator is 2 wins out of 10 or what have you, but I'm going to come into these conversations and out of my ten first meetings, I want seven of them to get to the second meeting.

Pete Kazanjy：所以，我们想做的是，“太棒了，在我们所有的十次第一次会议中，有多少人参加了第二次会议？”那就太好了，滞后指标是 10 场胜利 2 场，或者你有什么，但我将进入这些对话，在我的 10 次第一次会议中，我希望其中 7 次能够参加第二次会议。

And then of those seven, maybe I want 4.5 of them to get to the third meeting, and then ultimately, I want 2 or 3 to win.

然后，在这七人中，也许我希望其中 4.5 人参加第三次会议，最后，我希望 2 或 3 人获胜。

That's the way to think about that, those are the leading indicators.

这就是思考这个问题的方式，这些是领先指标。

So, as those conversions get better like, "Man, I'm not getting any second dates.

所以，当这些转化变得更好时，就像，“伙计，我不会再有第二次约会了。

Oh, okay, cool, you need a haircut or you need a shower," and the same applies to your sales motion, as well.

哦，好吧，酷，你需要理发或者你需要洗澡，”这同样适用于你的销售动议。

Your message is not landing, you're targeting the wrong people, what's going on here?

您的消息没有到达，您瞄准了错误的人，这是怎么回事？

You need to think about it.

你需要考虑一下。

Lenny: You need a better pickup line.

莱尼：你需要更好的接送线路。

Pete Kazanjy: There you go.

皮特·卡赞吉：就是这样。

Now, you're not even getting first dates, man, go all the way up to you need a better Hinge profile picture.

现在，你甚至还没有第一次约会，伙计，一直到你需要一张更好的铰链个人资料照片。

You're just not getting any matches, ew.

你只是没有得到任何匹配，呃。

Lenny: As a founder, do you have to get good at sales?

Lenny：作为创始人，你必须擅长销售吗？

A lot of founders are like, "Oh my God, we're going to do PLG.

很多创始人都会说，“天哪，我们要做 PLG。

We're going to be self-serve, freemium, we don't need sales.

我们将提供自助服务、免费增值服务，我们不需要销售。

I'm just going to let people figure it out." Is it a requirement of a B2B business to get good at sales as a founder?

我只是想让人们弄清楚这一点。”作为B2B企业的创始人，是否需要擅长销售？

Pete Kazanjy: I would say you don't have to get good at it, you just have to get non-zero at it.

Pete Kazanjy：我想说你不必擅长它，你只需要做到非零即可。

There's this really great article on Lenny's newsletter on adding a sales organization to a self-serve product that Lenny had me write and then he edited the heck out of it, and it's really a fantastic asset.

莱尼的时事通讯上有一篇非常棒的文章，内容是在自助产品中添加销售组织，莱尼让我写了这篇文章，然后他编辑了它，这确实是一笔很棒的资产。

But what I would say there is that there are a lot of PLG or self-serve motions out there that they've stagnated themselves because they didn't add the sales piece to it.

但我要说的是，有很多 PLG 或自助动议，他们自己停滞不前，因为他们没有添加销售部分。

I would encourage people to read that article, I forget what it's called, you added a really cool name.

我鼓励人们阅读那篇文章，我忘了它叫什么，你添加了一个非常酷的名字。

Lenny: Oh, The Transition: Layering on Sales to Product-led Growth.

莱尼：哦，转变：从销售分层到产品主导型增长。

Pete Kazanjy: See, you're good at naming things.

Pete Kazanjy：看，你很擅长命名事物。

Lenny: That's inspired by David Sack's The Cadence, which I love for how to operate.

Lenny：这是受到 David Sack 的 The Cadence 的启发，我喜欢它的操作方式。

Pete Kazanjy: There you go.

皮特·卡赞吉：就是这样。

That is a great article.

这是一篇很棒的文章。

So, it's not that you have to be great, you just have to recognize that it's important.

所以，并不是说你必须很伟大，你只需要认识到它很重要。

A good example of this would be, probably the most famous example of an organization that maybe didn't get sales religion as quickly as they should have would be Dropbox.

一个很好的例子是，最著名的组织例子可能是 Dropbox，但它可能没有像他们应该的那样尽快获得销售信仰。

Dropbox has phenomenal early sales leadership.

Dropbox 拥有非凡的早期销售领导力。

One of our investors here at Atrium is a gentleman named Mike Marg, he's a partner at Craft Ventures, he was an early sales manager and leader there, Kyle Parrish was the head of sales at Figma, Marissa Fuhrer is over at Figma, as well.

Atrium 的一位投资者是一位名叫 Mike Marg 的绅士，他是 Craft Ventures 的合伙人，他是那里的早期销售经理和领导者，Kyle Parrish 是 Figma 的销售主管，Marissa Fuhrer 也是 Figma 的销售主管。

There's all these just absolutely fantastic Dropbox folks, but the problem was is that the organization, from a product standpoint, never put all as many calories behind product development that would support the ability to sell to across an entire organization.

所有这些都是非常棒的 Dropbox 员工，但问题是，从产品的角度来看，该组织从来没有在产品开发上投入那么多的精力来支持整个组织的销售能力。

Pete Kazanjy: So, the way that I try to succinctly describe that is never mistake your lead gen for your business.

Pete Kazanjy：所以，我试图简洁地描述这一点，那就是永远不要将你的潜在客户误认为是你的业务。

I think the good news is that a lot of people took a lot of lumps there and folks have learned that, maybe Slack almost missed that, but then they brought in a bunch of Salesforce folks and other folks, actually, Mike Marg was also an early sales manager at Slack, as well, and really got a religion around that.

我认为好消息是，很多人在那里经历了很多困难，人们已经了解到这一点，也许 Slack 几乎错过了这一点，但后来他们引进了一群 Salesforce 人员和其他人员，实际上，Mike Marg 也是 Slack 的早期销售经理，并且确实对此有信仰。

Because it turns out that people paying 19 bucks a month or 29 bucks a month or what have you is really great, but getting to a $50,000 or a $100,000 or a $250,000 contract, that's where big ARR numbers start racking up, and organizations want to talk to a human in order to navigate that.

因为事实证明，人们每月支付 19 美元或 29 美元或其他什么确实很棒，但获得 50,000 美元、100,000 美元或 250,000 美元的合同，这就是大 ARR 数字开始积累的地方，组织希望与人交谈，以便解决这个问题。

Pete Kazanjy: So, PLG is great for landing and permeating an organization and there's a bunch of great...

Pete Kazanjy：所以，PLG 非常适合登陆和渗透一个组织，而且有很多很棒的......

Craft invests in this like crazy, so Scratchpad is a great example of very bottoms-up.

Craft 在这方面进行了疯狂的投资，因此 Scratchpad 是自下而上的一个很好的例子。

Atrium's pretty bottoms up, as well.

Atrium 的底部也很漂亮。

It's like, I don't know, what is the Silicon Valley joke, middle out or whatever, because we land with sales managers and SDR managers.

就像，我不知道硅谷的笑话是什么，中间出局还是其他什么，因为我们有销售经理和特别提款权经理。

What you're doing is you're solving the problem that the user has, but the problem is the user doesn't necessarily have large budgetary authority, so you can get them stoked up, but then you've got to talk to the person who's got the purse strings, and so that's going to require sales.

你所做的是解决用户遇到的问题，但问题是用户不一定有很大的预算权力，所以你可以让他们兴奋起来，但你必须与掌握钱包的人交谈，所以这将需要销售。

That's okay.

没关系。

Lenny: Just to punctuate that, basically 100% of B2B companies end up building a sales team?

Lenny：顺便强调一下，基本上 100% 的 B2B 公司最终都会建立销售团队？

Pete Kazanjy: I would say that's the case.

Pete Kazanjy：我想说是这样的。

It's more of a question of when versus if, so even the really famous ones like Atlassian.

这更多的是一个何时与是否的问题，所以即使像 Atlassian 这样真正著名的公司也是如此。

Atlassian, they had a sales organization, they just didn't call it a sales organization and they went pretty far without a lot, but instead what they did was they just priced the product breathtakingly low.

Atlassian，他们有一个销售组织，他们只是不称其为销售组织，而且他们在没有太多东西的情况下走了很远，但他们所做的只是将产品定价低得惊人。

I think developer tools can oftentimes do this, where because developers are pretty technical, they can adopt product, they don't need handholding in order to adopt a product that is complicated enough to be valuable.

我认为开发人员工具通常可以做到这一点，因为开发人员技术精湛，他们可以采用产品，他们不需要掌握就可以采用足够复杂且有价值的产品。

Datadog's a good example or New Relic or AppD, but even those guys very early on had meaningful sales organizations.

Datadog 或 New Relic 或 AppD 就是一个很好的例子，但即使是这些人很早就也拥有有意义的销售组织。

There's a lot of reasons why Datadog ended up winning that market, but their sales organization is no joke.

Datadog 最终赢得这个市场的原因有很多，但他们的销售组织可不是开玩笑的。

Even developer tools, you might think, cool, well, the developers can just swipe their credit cards.

即使是开发人员工具，您可能会想，很酷，开发人员只需刷信用卡即可。

Yeah, they can, but then you're going to be eventually capped there.

是的，他们可以，但最终你会被限制在那里。

Look at Snowflake.

看看雪花。

Snowflake has, I don't know, 500 salespeople, you're going to need a sales org.

我不知道 Snowflake 有 500 名销售人员，你需要一个销售组织。

Lenny: Let's shift a bit to talking about just how to get better at sales, at the scale of sales.

莱尼：让我们稍微讨论一下如何在销售规模上提高销售水平。

I think it's interesting because you don't have a sales background and so you've had to learn how to do this and you did a lot of research and building your business, you've had to get really good at sales.

我认为这很有趣，因为你没有销售背景，所以你必须学习如何做到这一点，你做了很多研究并建立你的业务，你必须非常擅长销售。

So, maybe a first question, what's the number one tip that you have for getting better at sales?

那么，也许第一个问题是，要提高销售能力，您的首要秘诀是什么？

Pete Kazanjy: The first chapter of Founding Sales talks about what I call sales mindset changes.

Pete Kazanjy：《Founding Sales》的第一章讨论了我所说的销售心态变化。

Because I think the big thing is it's just so weird, it's just such a weird shift in behavior.

因为我认为最重要的是这太奇怪了，这是一种行为上的奇怪转变。

Because if you think about it as a product manager or as an engineer or whatever, how many people do you interact with day-to-day?

因为如果你作为产品经理或工程师或其他什么身份来思考，你每天会与多少人打交道？

Oh, 6, 10 maybe.

哦，也许是 6、10。

Pete Kazanjy: It's always the same people and so it's super comfortable, whereas in sales or anything customer facing, what ends up happening is you're meeting multiple new humans every day, if you're doing it right, and that just is such a mindset shift.

Pete Kazanjy：总是同一个人，所以非常舒服，而在销售或面对客户的任何事情中，最终发生的事情是你每天都会遇到多个新人，如果你做得正确的话，这就是一种心态的转变。

You're not going to be able to remember everybody.

你不可能记住每个人。

You're going to have to write it all down.

你必须把它全部写下来。

You're going to have to use the CRM for that.

为此，您必须使用 CRM。

You're in the starting blocks on the track.

您已站在赛道上的起跑器上。

You're in the starting blocks and you have 90 seconds or a couple minutes to form rapport, to make somebody feel like they should trust you and they want to be honest with you.

你正处于起步阶段，你有 90 秒或几分钟的时间来建立融洽的关系，让别人觉得他们应该信任你，并且他们想对你诚实。

You have to be very focused on activity orientation, whereas engineering and product management, there's does a lot of super deep work.

你必须非常专注于活动导向，而工程和产品管理则需要做很多超深入的工作。

Pete Kazanjy: It's like Paul Graham's Maker versus Manager Schedule.

Pete Kazanjy：这就像 Paul Graham 的 Maker vs Manager Schedule。

Salespeople have manager schedules, interestingly enough, where what you're doing is you're constantly contact switching, an ideal salesperson's calendar or a founder who's doing sales is 2, 3, 4, maybe 5 customer-facing meetings a day with different humans.

有趣的是，销售人员有经理的日程安排，你要做的就是不断地切换联系人，理想的销售人员或负责销售的创始人的日历是每天与不同的人举行 2、3、4、也许 5 次面向客户的会议。

And then moreover, then you're having incremental interactions with those folks later on, like later that week or the next week or what have you, so then you have to keep continuity of these multiple parallel conversations.

此外，您稍后将与这些人进行增量互动，例如本周晚些时候或下周或其他什么，因此您必须保持这些多个并行对话的连续性。

It's a totally different set of skills and so it feels super weird to start out, but what ends up happening is it's just a skill.

这是一套完全不同的技能，所以一开始感觉非常奇怪，但最终发生的事情是它只是一种技能。

You just start doing it, you start doing it, you start doing it, and you just become used to it, you become calloused.

你开始做，你开始做，你开始做，然后你就习惯了，你变得麻木不仁。

You're like, "I'm incorrigible now.

你会说：“我现在已经无可救药了。

You put me in an elevator, I can talk to anyone."

你把我放进电梯里，我就可以和任何人交谈。”

Pete Kazanjy: So, one, just recognizing it's going to be a pretty big mindset change, and then the second thing you can do is then once you know that there's going to be a mindset change, is you can focus in on making those behaviors be better.

Pete Kazanjy：所以，一是认识到这将是一个相当大的心态变化，然后你可以做的第二件事就是一旦你知道心态将会发生变化，你就可以专注于让这些行为变得更好。

So, as an example, one of the things I challenge my staff to do is I call it turbo rapport, it needs a better name.

因此，举个例子，我向我的员工提出的挑战之一就是我将其称为“涡轮融洽”，它需要一个更好的名称。

But think about people that you interact with in the world who maybe are a little shields up, they're probably used to interacting with people who are not going to be super nice to them, maybe it's bartenders or a flight attendant or a barista, or fill in the blank.

但想想你在这个世界上与之互动的人，他们可能会有点屏蔽，他们可能习惯于与那些不会对他们超级友善的人互动，也许是调酒师、空姐或咖啡师，或者填补空白。

Think about how quickly you can become friends with them, how you can break that down, because that's going to be a really good skill for you to have when you're interacting with a prospect.

想想你能多快与他们成为朋友，如何打破这种关系，因为当你与潜在客户互动时，这将是你需要掌握的一项非常好的技能。

Pete Kazanjy: And then what that's going to allow you to do is then ask them candid questions about their current situation that either, A, they may know about or, B, you ask provocative questions that make them think about the world in a way maybe that you want them to and realize that they have pain they didn't want or didn't know that they had.

皮特·卡赞吉：然后你要做的就是向他们坦诚地询问他们目前的处境，A，他们可能知道，或者，B，你提出一些挑衅性的问题，让他们以你希望的方式思考世界，并意识到他们有他们不想要或不知道的痛苦。

My friend, Brett Burson, had this great tweet one at one point where he said, "Think about the things that you do in your day-to-day that are like a pianist, like a piano player, playing scales like, 'Da, da, da, da, da, da.' What is the version of that for selling?" That's rapid rapport building, asking good questions, asking follow-up questions, being willing to ask uncomfortable questions, all those sort of things, and asking for money and then shutting up and waiting for them to answer, all these are very uncomfortable things, but the more you do them, you'll just get good at them.

我的朋友布雷特·伯森（Brett Burson）曾在推特上发过一条很棒的推文，他说：“想想你每天所做的事情，就像钢琴家、钢琴演奏者一样，弹奏音阶，比如‘达、达、达、达、达、达’。”出售的是什么版本？”这是快速建立融洽关系，提出好的问题，提出后续问题，愿意问不舒服的问题，所有这些事情，要钱然后闭嘴等待他们回答，所有这些都是非常不舒服的事情，但是你做得越多，你就会变得擅长。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Merge.

莱尼：这一集是由 Merge 为您带来的。

Every product manager knows the pain of slowing product velocity when developers struggle to build and maintain integrations with other platforms.

每个产品经理都知道，当开发人员努力构建和维护与其他平台的集成时，产品速度减慢的痛苦。

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Lenny: One of the things in your book that most shifted my mindset on sales was this shift from you're trying to convince someone to buy this thing to you're trying to help them and maybe this will make their life easier.

莱尼：你书中最改变我对销售思维的一件事就是从你试图说服别人买这个东西到你试图帮助他们，也许这会让他们的生活更轻松。

Can you talk a bit about that?

你能谈谈这个吗？

Pete Kazanjy: I think this is like the, remember the modern sales versus old-school sales thing?

Pete Kazanjy：我认为这就像，还记得现代销售与老式销售的情况吗？

Pete Kazanjy: The old-school sales thing is like, "I'm going to sell something to a mark," or the best example of this, "That guy's a great sales guy, he can sell ice to an Eskimo." It's like, "Man, if you're selling ice to an Eskimo, you're an asshole.

Pete Kazanjy：老派的销售就像是，“我要把东西卖到一个标记，”或者最好的例子，“那家伙是一个伟大的销售人员，他可以把冰卖给爱斯基摩人。”就像是，“伙计，如果你向爱斯基摩人卖冰，那你就是个混蛋。

What is wrong with you?

你怎么了？

They don't need ice," unless they're visiting Southern California.

他们不需要冰，”除非他们要去南加州。

So, as a seller, the way that I like to frame it to people is that you're a consultant that has a particular predilection for a given solution, your solution.

因此，作为一名卖家，我喜欢向人们介绍的方式是，您是一名顾问，对给定的解决方案（即您的解决方案）有特殊的偏好。

Use Atrium as an example.

以 Atrium 为例。

Atrium's minimum ICP is probably SDRs plus AEs in an organization should probably be at 10 all the way up to 300.

Atrium 的最低 ICP 可能是 SDR 加上组织中的 AE，应该为 10 一直到 300。

So, if someone shows up and they're like, "Man, I've got to get really good at sales, I need to buy your software, Pete," and I'm like, "Cool.

所以，如果有人出现，他们会说，“伙计，我必须非常擅长销售，我需要购买你的软件，皮特，”我会说，“酷。

How many salespeople do you have?" They're like, "I have one." I'll be like, "Man, I'm not going to sell you Atrium.

你们有多少销售人员？”他们就像是，“我有一个。”我会说，“伙计，我不会把 Atrium 卖给你。

You're just going to be unhappy, it's going to be dumb, it's going to be a waste of our customer success resources, you're going to churn," all those sort of things.

你只会不高兴，这会很愚蠢，这会浪费我们的客户成功资源，你会流失，”诸如此类的事情。

Pete Kazanjy: But if instead what you're doing is you're saying, "Hey, I'm going to go out in the market and I'm going to find the people that have a high proclivity that our technology solves and then I'm going to talk with them about how they're solving that problem right now, and ideally, through a series of questions, I'm going to reveal that to them that they're doing it probably not great.

Pete Kazanjy：但是，如果你正在做的是说，“嘿，我要去市场，我要找到那些对我们的技术解决问题有很高倾向的人，然后我要与他们讨论他们现在如何解决这个问题，理想情况下，通过一系列问题，我将向他们透露，他们做得可能并不好。

And then once I've revealed to them the fact, through this directed questioning, what's known as discovery, that they have this high magnitude problem, that it is causing them lots of money, that it is a pain in their ass, and then I reveal to them that there is a better way of approaching it and magically enough, I happen to be a representative of that solution," well, now that's an ideal transaction and everybody wins.

然后，一旦我通过这种定向提问，即所谓的发现，向他们透露了一个事实，他们面临着如此严重的问题，这给他们带来了很多钱，这是他们的痛苦，然后我向他们透露，有一种更好的方法来解决这个问题，而且神奇的是，我恰好是该解决方案的代表，“好吧，现在这是一笔理想的交易，每个人都赢了。

And then scale that up across an entire economy and you can see why I was saying that sales is the grease that makes the economy work like that and also importantly, brings new technology to the market in a way that makes everything better.

然后将其扩展到整个经济体，你就会明白为什么我说销售是使经济如此运转的润滑剂，而且重要的是，它以一种让一切变得更好的方式将新技术引入市场。

Lenny: If someone's listening to this and they're like, "I want to get better at sales, what's one thing I could do differently tomorrow, this week, to improve my ability to sell my product?" What would that be?

莱尼：如果有人听了这个，他们会说，“我想在销售方面做得更好，明天、本周我可以做些什么不同的事情，以提高我销售产品的能力？”那会是什么？

Pete Kazanjy: There's the non-complicated version and there's the complicated version.

Pete Kazanjy：有不复杂的版本和复杂的版本。

The non-complicated version would just be just walking down the street, make eye contact with everybody, and then every person that you stop next to at Starbucks or the crosswalk or whatever, just strike up a conversation with them, figure out a mechanism by which you can start a conversation with them.

不复杂的版本只是走在街上，与每个人进行眼神交流，然后你在星巴克或人行横道或其他地方停下来的每个人，只需与他们开始对话，找出一种可以与他们开始对话的机制。

Compliment their shirt or their shoes or remark on something.

赞美他们的衬衫或鞋子或对某些事情发表评论。

Don't use the weather, because that's lazy, but figure that out, so that's the first version.

不要使用天气，因为那很懒，但要弄清楚，所以这是第一个版本。

Probably the more sophisticated version is just be very, very tight on your ICP, just be very, very, very crisp around who has your problem and why.

也许更复杂的版本就是对你的 ICP 非常非常严格，非常非常明确地告诉你谁有你的问题以及为什么。

Being more crisp around that and then having that understood is a great way of making sure that you're not wasting time on people who don't have your problem and that you're doing more of those loops with people who are right in the white-hot center.

更明确地表达这一点，然后让人们理解这一点，是确保你不会在没有你的问题的人身上浪费时间的好方法，并且你可以与处于白热化中心的人进行更多的此类循环。

So, one is a behavioral thing and one is a more thoughtful thing.

所以，一个是行为上的事情，一个是更深思熟虑的事情。

Lenny: That's great.

莱尼：那太好了。

Can you actually explain ICP briefly, because a lot of people may not know that term?

您能否简单解释一下 ICP，因为很多人可能不知道这个术语？

Pete Kazanjy: Thank you.

皮特·卡赞吉：谢谢。

So, ICP stands for Ideal Customer Profile.

因此，ICP 代表理想客户档案。

Actually, it's important to think about there's two things in a B2B sales motion, there's the characteristics of the account, which is the company that's going to buy, and then there's the characteristics of the human and the personas that you're going to be interacting with.

实际上，重要的是要考虑 B2B 销售动议中的两件事，一是帐户的特征，即要购买的公司，二是要与之交互的人员和角色的特征。

Let's use Amplitude as an example.

让我们以振幅为例。

Amplitude's ICP would probably be organizations that make software products, that probably have at least a couple of product managers, because if there's a single product manager, it might be too much, they might be at the point where they don't need a full-blown enterprise analytics suite, and that's probably it.

Amplitude 的 ICP 可能是制造软件产​​品的组织，可能至少有几个产品经理，因为如果只有一个产品经理，可能就太多了，他们可能不需要成熟的企业分析套件，可能就是这样。

And then on the human side, who are the people who participate in that conversation?

那么在人的方面，参与对话的人是谁？

Well, the product managers are going to be the ones who are going to be the users, but engineering is probably involved in order to make sure that Amplitude can talk to the cloud data warehouse and so on and so forth, and then moreover, the person who owns the budget might be the VP of product, not the product manager, or it might be the VP of engineering or the CTO.

好吧，产品经理将成为用户，但工程可能会参与其中，以确保 Amplitude 可以与云数据仓库等进行通信，此外，拥有预算的人可能是产品副总裁，而不是产品经理，或者可能是工程副总裁或首席技术官。

Pete Kazanjy: So, those three different folks that we talked about there, it's different humans.

Pete Kazanjy：所以，我们在那里谈论的这三个不同的人，是不同的人。

Ideal customer profile is understanding what those parameters look like for looking at an organization in order to say, "Man, that's an awesome op, let's go get in front of them," versus, "Eh, I don't know if that's a very good opportunity, maybe let's pass on that," and then the personas are, "Great, that's an awesome op right there.

理想的客户档案是了解组织的这些参数是什么样的，以便说，“伙计，这是一个很棒的操作，让我们走到他们面前”，而不是，“呃，我不知道这是否是一个很好的机会，也许让我们传递这个机会，”然后人物角色是，“太棒了，这是一个很棒的操作。

I know that I'm going to have my first conversation with Lenny, but with an intention that I'm eventually going to get to the VP of product at Airbnb, and that's Suzy over here.

我知道我将与 Lenny 进行第一次对话，但我的目的是最终与 Airbnb 的产品副总裁交谈，她就是这里的 Suzy。

And then once we get validation from her, then I know that the VPE over here is Frank," and knowing who the personas are.

一旦我们得到她的确认，我就知道这里的 VPE 是 Frank，”并且知道角色是谁。

So, that's what ICP and personas are.

这就是 ICP 和角色。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

There's a template that you've created that helps you lay out your ICP, so we'll try to link to it in the show notes.

您创建了一个模板来帮助您布置 ICP，因此我们将尝试在演出注释中链接到该模板。

I have to find it again.

我必须再找到它。

Lenny: So, we've talked about founder-led sales and how founders should be starting sales, we've talked about just how to get better at sales as a founder, as anyone.

莱尼：所以，我们讨论了创始人主导的销售以及创始人应该如何开始销售，我们讨论了如何作为创始人和任何人更好地进行销售。

I want to talk now about hiring salespeople.

我现在想谈谈招聘销售人员的问题。

Lenny: Great mug, by the way, Coffee is for Closers.

莱尼： 很棒的杯子，顺便说一句，咖啡是给闭门器喝的。

I love it.

我喜欢它。

Can people buy that online or is that just a one-off?

人们可以在网上购买吗？或者这只是一次性的？

Pete Kazanjy: This is a Modern Sales Pros mugs.

Pete Kazanjy：这是一款现代销售专业马克杯。

I think we have a bunch of Yetis that we give away for Atrium, as well, but we're big onto sales jokes here because you have to...

我想我们也有很多为 Atrium 赠送的 Yetis，但我们很喜欢这里的销售笑话，因为你必须......

We stole this from New Relic, being very user-centric in your swag, so I've got my Sales Nerds jacket on here, I've got my Let's Get It hat here, I've got my Coffee is for Closers mug.

我们从 New Relic 那里偷来了这个，在你的赃物中非常以用户为中心，所以我在这里有我的 Sales Nerds 夹克，我在这里有我的 Let's Get It 帽子，我有我的 Coffee is for Closers 马克杯。

These are all inside sales jokes that maybe your audience won't necessarily get, or maybe they will, but our audience very much gets them.

这些都是内部销售笑话，也许你的观众不一定能理解，也可能他们会理解，但我们的观众非常能理解。

They're like, "Oh man, your hat's so funny.

他们会说，“天啊，你的帽子真有趣。

Can you send me one?" I'm like, "No problem.

你能给我发一份吗？”我说，“没问题。

You should buy our software."

你应该购买我们的软件。”

Lenny: Love it.

莱尼：喜欢。

So, hiring salespeople, we've talked a bit about a lot of these things, like maybe when it's time to hire a salesperson when you're closing a fourth or fifth of your opportunities when this while loop is kicking in.

所以，在招聘销售人员时，我们已经讨论了很多这样的事情，比如当你关闭四分之一或五分之一的机会时，当这个 while 循环开始时，也许是时候雇用销售人员了。

So, in terms of the who to find for this first sales role, and you mentioned that VP of sales are often let go, it's a very high rate of not working out, is that true?

那么，就寻找第一个销售角色的人而言，您提到销售副总裁经常被解雇，不工作的比例非常高，是真的吗？

Pete Kazanjy: Yeah.

皮特·卡赞吉：是的。

Again, this is mapped out in the Founder-led Selling presentation and then also in Founding Sales, the book.

同样，这一点在创始人主导的销售演示中以及在《创始人销售》一书中也得到了阐述。

Generally, what you want to do is you probably don't want to start with a VP of sales to start, a sales leader, and there's a couple of reasons why there.

一般来说，您可能不想从销售副总裁、销售主管开始，原因有几个。

Even if you figured it out yourself, that's required, you have to get to that minimum sufficiency of 10, 20, 30 customers yourself first.

即使您自己弄清楚了，这也是必需的，您必须首先自己达到 10、20、30 个客户的最低要求。

But then the reason why I advocate for folks to hire a couple of sellers or a couple of AEs to start is because, again, you have that software in your brain.

但我之所以提倡人们雇佣几个卖家或几个 AE 来开始，是因为你脑子里有这个软件。

Unfortunately, there is no GitHub for sales motions, and so it's in your brain, it's in your documents, et cetera, and so now, you're going to teach these other folks.

不幸的是，没有用于销售动议的 GitHub，所以它在你的大脑中，在你的文档中，等等，所以现在，你要教这些其他人。

So, what you want to do is you want to hire a couple early-stage pioneer sellers to take that sales motion.

因此，您想要做的是聘请一些早期先驱卖家来采取该销售行动。

Pete Kazanjy: The downside of seeking to hire a VP of sales or a head of sales, or what have you, who actually is a head of sales is coming out of an organization where maybe he or she is a manager of managers or manages eight reps or something like that, is that person hasn't been selling for a hot second.

Pete Kazanjy：寻求聘请销售副总裁或销售主管，或者实际上是销售主管的人，如果他或她来自一个组织，他或她可能是经理中的经理或管理八名代表或类似的人，那么这个人的缺点就是这个人并没有热衷于销售。

I think actually Jason Lemkin had a pretty funny tweet about this the other day where he was like, "Hiring the VP of sales who's been there and done that before, why exactly does she want to do it again?" Like, "Oh, you scaled up a Datadog or Figma or whatever, you should come to my crappy little startup," it's like, "I'm professionally rich." So, instead, the great folks to look at are the deputies or those early-stage sellers.

我认为实际上杰森·莱姆金（Jason Lemkin）前几天对此发表了一条非常有趣的推文，他说：“聘请了以前曾在那里做过的销售副总裁，为什么她想再做一次？”就像，“哦，你扩大了 Datadog 或 Figma 之类的规模，你应该来我蹩脚的小初创公司，”就像，“我在职业上很富有。”因此，最值得关注的人是代表或那些早期卖家。

Pete Kazanjy: So, the example I always use here, my last software company was in recruiting, so if you have a new recruiting technology, my buddy, Troy, runs this recruiting software company called Guide.

Pete Kazanjy：所以，我总是在这里使用的例子，我的最后一家软件公司是在招聘，所以如果你有新的招聘技术，我的朋友 Troy 经营着这家名为 Guide 的招聘软件公司。

They make this really cool, guided, hey, hiring process for candidates, whatever, but they sell to recruiting organizations.

他们为候选人提供了一个非常酷的、有指导的、嘿、招聘流程，无论如何，但他们把产品卖给招聘组织。

So the early-stage sellers that he would be interested in would probably be early people at Lever or Greenhouse who sell to the same persona, probably around the same average selling price, but ideally, not an AE who joined Greenhouse last year or two years ago.

因此，他感兴趣的早期卖家可能是 Lever 或 Greenhouse 的早期人员，他们向相同的角色出售产品，平均售价可能大致相同，但理想情况下，不是去年或两年前加入 Greenhouse 的 AE。

Pete Kazanjy: Greenhouse just has a phenomenal sales organization, their sales leadership is absolutely fantastic, the gentleman who's the CRO over there is a good friend of mine, Sean Murray.

Pete Kazanjy：Greenhouse 拥有一支出色的销售组织，他们的销售领导力绝对出色，那边的 CRO 先生是我的好朋友 Sean Murray。

But early-stage selling takes early-stage sellers or people who have been there, because you're not going to have all the collateral, slides and scripts and whatever aren't going to be all buttoned up and with a bow around them, and so looking for those early-stage, grimier, grittier sellers is a more effective way of going about that.

但早期销售需要早期阶段的卖家或曾经参与过的人，因为你不会拥有所有的抵押品、幻灯片和脚本以及任何不会全部敲定并在他们周围鞠躬的东西，因此寻找那些早期阶段的、更肮脏、更坚韧的卖家是一个更有效的方法。

Those are the folks that you want to look for once you've gotten to that statistical significance of your own selling capacity.

一旦你了解了自己的销售能力的统计显着性，这些人就是你想要寻找的人。

Lenny: To make that just even clearer, the suggestion is if you're, say, a Series A founder, what's a profile of a person you look for?

莱尼：为了更清楚地说明这一点，我们的建议是，如果你是 A 轮创始人，你要寻找的人的简介是什么？

You said it's a deputy at a successful sales org?

你说他是一个成功销售组织的代表？

Pete Kazanjy: I'll give you a couple examples.

Pete Kazanjy：我给你举几个例子。

I don't know, say you're doing some sort of design tool, I would go look at the Figma sales organization and I would look at some of the earlier sellers who were there maybe two years ago or three years ago or what have you, maybe you could consider getting a sales manager there who's not super far from selling.

我不知道，假设你正在做某种设计工具，我会去看看 Figma 销售组织，我会看看一些早期的卖家，他们可能是两年前或三年前，或者什么，也许你可以考虑在那里找一位离销售不远的销售经理。

A great example of this is there's this woman, Marissa Fuhrer, who works at Figma, she's absolutely fantastic.

一个很好的例子是 Marissa Fuhrer，她在 Figma 工作，她非常棒。

She works on the enterprise team there and she was at Dropbox previously as a seller for a long time.

她在 Dropbox 的企业团队工作，之前曾在 Dropbox 担任过很长时间的销售人员。

Pete Kazanjy: She would be a great profile for someone who's not too far from having sold and is willing to roll up her sleeves, but ideally, that would probably be the person who you'd want to hire after you've hired those couple of sellers and gotten them to success.

Pete Kazanjy：对于那些离销售不远并且愿意卷起袖子的人来说，她会是一个很好的形象，但理想情况下，这可能是你在雇用了这几个卖家并让他们取得成功后想要雇用的人。

Because the other thing, too, with Marissa, she's probably going to look at your organization and be like, "Cool.

因为另一件事，对于玛丽莎来说，她可能会看看你的组织，然后说：“酷。

Prove to me that your product fits the market, because I don't want to necessarily take a bet on you," and then you would say, "Well, in addition to having a 25% win rate with me, I have these two sellers right here and they both have 20% win rates and you can see that they're both closing $50,000 of bookings a month, all I need you to do is scale it up." In which case, that early stage head of sales is like, "Let's do it."

向我证明你的产品适合市场，因为我不一定要在你身上打赌，”然后你会说，“好吧，除了我有 25% 的胜率之外，我这里有这两个卖家，他们都有 20% 的胜率，你可以看到他们每个月都完成了 50,000 美元的预订，我需要你做的就是扩大规模。”在这种情况下，早期销售主管就像， “我们开始吧。”

Lenny: She's about to get a bunch of LinkedIn requests.

莱尼：她即将收到一堆 LinkedIn 请求。

Pete Kazanjy: She's great.

皮特·卡赞吉：她很棒。

This is one of the things that we really love at Atrium, is we have really great customers.

这是我们在 Atrium 真正喜欢的事情之一，我们拥有非常好的客户。

We're creating a new category of software and so it's one of those things where more advanced, more modern sales managers and leaders really get it, that's how it always is in category creation.

我们正在创建一个新的软件类别，因此这是更先进、更现代的销售经理和领导者真正理解的事情之一，这就是类别创建中始终存在的方式。

But when you find the people who really get it and really get it, they turn out to be awesome.

但当你找到那些真正理解并真正理解它的人时，他们就会变得很棒。

That's one of the things that just makes startups fantastic.

这是让初创公司变得如此出色的原因之一。

Lenny: What's a sign that maybe it's not working out when you hire your either first salesperson or maybe first five, what are signs?

莱尼：当你雇用第一位销售人员或前五名销售人员时，有什么迹象表明它可能不起作用，有什么迹象？

Because you said it often does not work out, what are early signals like, "We should rethink this"?

因为你说这通常行不通，那么“我们应该重新考虑这一点”之类的早期信号是什么？

Pete Kazanjy: This is another reason why it's really important to do it yourself to start, but presuming that you've been able to close business on a reliable basis, again, with arm's length prospects, it can't be Lenny's mother-in-law buying my software-

Pete Kazanjy：这是为什么一开始就自己动手非常重要的另一个原因，但假设您已经能够在可靠的基础上完成业务，那么，与公平的前景一样，莱尼的岳母不可能购买我的软件-

Lenny: Huge fan, for real, actually, she is.

莱尼：她是真正的超级粉丝。

Pete Kazanjy: God bless, but she's not ICP for Atrium.

Pete Kazanjy：上帝保佑，但她不是 Atrium 的 ICP。

This is the danger of doing revenue trades in your accelerator or whatever, it's not real.

这是在加速器或其他什么中进行收入交易的危险，它不是真实的。

So, if you have done that and you've sold 20 or 30 deals, you know it can be done, we have an existence proof of this.

因此，如果您已经做到了这一点并且已经卖出了 20 或 30 笔交易，您就知道这是可以做到的，我们有证据证明这一点。

So, if someone else can't do it the way that you do it, and this is why hiring two folks to start is effective, you don't want to hire just one, maybe three, but four, it's like, "Ugh, that's a lot to manage," at least to start.

因此，如果其他人不能按照您的方式做到这一点，这就是为什么雇用两个人开始是有效的，您不想只雇用一个人，也许三个，而是四个人，这就像，“呃，需要管理很多”，至少在开始时是这样。

So, if you have done that and the person, their win rates are poor or their activity levels are poor, things like that, those are usually indicators that it's not work out, that they're not getting those second dates, they're not getting those third dates, but importantly, they have to have the materials in question.

所以，如果你已经这样做了，而这个人，他们的胜率很差或者他们的活动水平很差，诸如此类的事情，这些通常表明事情没有成功，他们没有得到第二次约会，他们没有得到第三次约会，但重要的是，他们必须拥有有问题的材料。

Pete Kazanjy: Did you create the slide deck?

Pete Kazanjy：幻灯片是您制作的吗？

Did you take people through and did you give it to them?

你带人过去并把它交给他们了吗？

Did you take all the discovery questions that were in your brain and write them down into a Google Doc or a Notion page or what have you?

你是否把你脑子里所有的发现问题都写到了 Google Doc 或 Notion 页面或者你拥有的其他东西中？

Do you have a demo script for them?

您有他们的演示脚本吗？

If those things are not present, then probably no one's going to be successful, or at least they're going to have to rederive all that stuff that you already did.

如果这些东西不存在，那么可能没有人会成功，或者至少他们将不得不重新导出您已经做过的所有东西。

But if you have all those precursors and it's not sticking for someone, that's probably a good leading indicator that they're not going to work out

但如果你拥有所有这些先兆，但对某人来说并不持久，这可能是一个很好的领先指标，表明他们不会成功

Lenny: How much time do you give these folks before you make a decision?

莱尼：在你做出决定之前，你给这些人多少时间？

Pete Kazanjy: This is why it's so, so, so important to look at leading indicators.

Pete Kazanjy：这就是为什么查看领先指标如此、如此、如此重要。

This is something that we just think about all the time here at Atrium, from a instrumentation and data-driven sales management, is if someone's not having customer-facing meetings, if they're low activity, you're never going to win anything.

这是我们在 Atrium 一直在思考的问题，从仪器和数据驱动的销售管理来看，如果有人没有召开面向客户的会议，如果他们的活动很少，那么你永远不会赢得任何东西。

If you have a 50% win rate on two opportunities in a month, that's probably still not going to be super helpful unless you have a very, very, very high deal size.

如果您一个月内两次机会的胜率都是 50%，那么除非您的交易规模非常非常大，否则这可能仍然不会有太大帮助。

So, looking at those leading indicators like, "Are they having first meetings?

因此，看看这些领先指标，例如“他们是否正在举行第一次会议？

Are they having second meetings?

他们正在举行第二次会议吗？

What does their email volume look like?

他们的电子邮件量如何？

Are they progressing things through, are they getting things to proposal, and then eventually, are things closing?"

他们是否正在推进事情的进展，他们是否正在将事情提出建议，然后最终事情是否会结束？”

Pete Kazanjy: I do a bunch of masterclasses for Atrium on data-driven sales management and one of them is on ramping.

Pete Kazanjy：我为 Atrium 举办了一系列关于数据驱动的销售管理的大师班，其中一个正在逐步推进。

It's called Ramping For Success, I forget the name of the masterclass, but looking at those leading indicators like opportunity inflow, "Is a person putting meetings on their calendar, are they progressing them?

它被称为“Ramping For Success”，我忘记了大师班的名称，但是看看机会流入等领先指标，“一个人是否将会议列入日历，他们是否正在推进会议？

Are they being active in the meantime?" Those are all really good leading indicators.

他们同时活跃吗？”这些都是非常好的领先指标。

If somebody's not getting first meetings on the calendar, you know within a month, it's like, "Cool, this isn't working out."

如果有人在一个月内没有在日历上安排第一次会议，你就会知道，“酷，这行不通。”

Pete Kazanjy: Now, if they're not getting to second or third meetings, but they are getting those first meetings, well, now you know you've got a different problem, which they're getting those first dates, but they're not getting a second date and they're not getting a second date the same way that you were, maybe that's a coaching issue or maybe it's just a behavioral problem that's that you're not going to be able to surmount.

皮特·卡赞吉：现在，如果他们没有参加第二次或第三次会议，但他们参加了第一次会议，那么，现在你知道你遇到了一个不同的问题，他们得到了第一次约会，但他们没有得到第二次约会，而且他们没有像你一样得到第二次约会，也许这是一个教练问题，或者可能只是一个你无法克服的行为问题。

But the point is having instrumentation on the most leading indicator possible gives you eyes onto whether or not things are working or not and you can make judgements fast, because the worst possible situation is nine months in, you're like, "Man, it's not working." It's like, "Man, I bet if you looked at the leading indicators, you would have known two months in this wasn't working."

但重点是，对最领先的指标进行检测可以让你了解事情是否有效，并且你可以快速做出判断，因为最糟糕的情况是九个月后，你会想，“伙计，它不起作用。”就像，“伙计，我敢打赌，如果你看看领先指标，你就会知道这两个月是行不通的。”

Lenny: I like that you gave us a bottom end of the range like, "In a month, you should be able to know, a lot of times." What would be the max by which like, "If things are going okay, by six months, it's probably going to be good," or what is that timeframe?

莱尼：我喜欢你给我们一个范围的底限，比如“一个月内，你应该能够知道很多次。” “如果一切进展顺利，六个月后可能会好起来”，或者那个时间范围是多少？

Pete Kazanjy: Oh, where you know you're successful?

Pete Kazanjy：哦，你在哪里知道自己成功了？

Lenny: Yeah.

莱尼：是的。

It sounds like maybe from a month to some future month, this is a period where you can get a sense of this person is going to work out.

听起来也许从一个月到未来的某个月，这是一个你可以感觉到这个人将会成功的时期。

What's that range, in your mind?

你心目中的这个范围是多少？

Pete Kazanjy: It's almost like you're continuously monitoring.

Pete Kazanjy：这几乎就像你在持续监控一样。

In the first month, maybe you spend that time onboarding the rep, teaching them, going through mock discovery conversations, mock demos, et cetera, having them ride along with you.

在第一个月，也许你会花时间让销售代表入职，教导他们，进行模拟发现对话、模拟演示等等，让他们和你一起骑行。

In the second month, we would expect them to have 10 first meetings or maybe 20 first meetings and we would expect 50% of those to get to the second meetings, and we would measure those things.

在第二个月，我们预计他们将举行 10 次第一次会议，或者可能是 20 次第一次会议，我们预计其中 50% 的人会参加第二次会议，我们会衡量这些事情。

In the third month, we would expect some subset of those first meetings and second meetings that happened in the second month to get to a proposal, to get to a commercial conversation, and then maybe we would expect some of the deals in that month to close to win, or maybe the next month.

在第三个月，我们预计第二个月发生的第一次会议和第二次会议的一部分能够达成提案，进行商业对话，然后我们可能会期望该月或下个月的一些交易能够达成。

Pete Kazanjy: It's essentially like you're looking at the leading indicators in the appropriate timeframe, such that if someone is in month three and they're getting a bunch of their deals to proposal, you can't declare victory yet because the money is not in the bank, however things are looking good.

Pete Kazanjy：本质上就像你在适当的时间范围内查看领先指标，这样，如果有人在第三个月，他们收到了一堆交易提案，你还不能宣布胜利，因为钱还没有存入银行，但情况看起来不错。

So, if you get to month four and lots of things are getting to proposal, but nothing's closing in month four and nothing's closing in month five, you still can't say "Olly olly oxen free," you should still be very concerned.

所以，如果你到了第四个月，很多事情都在提建议，但第四个月什么都没有结束，第五个月什么也没有结束，你仍然不能说“Olly olly oxen free”，你仍然应该非常担心。

But if the leading indicator is at the right level for the right period or right interval in ramp, then you can feel confident, but not declare victory yet.

但如果领先指标在正确的时期或正确的斜坡区间内处于正确的水平，那么您可以感到自信，但还没有宣布胜利。

Lenny: Got it.

莱尼：明白了。

Something that this is reminding me of is we are chatting ahead of this call and you mentioned that working from home is really bad for salespeople, in your experience.

这让我想起我们在这次电话会议之前正在聊天，您提到根据您的经验，在家工作对销售人员来说确实很糟糕。

Can you talk about that?

你能谈谈吗？

Pete Kazanjy: It's primarily bad for junior salespeople.

Pete Kazanjy：这主要对初级销售人员不利。

Senior salespeople have been selling out in what's known as the field for a long time, but when you think about the behavior that we're talking about, which is learning, so what needs to happen?

高级销售人员长期以来一直在所谓的领域进行销售，但是当您考虑我们正在谈论的行为（即学习）时，那么需要发生什么？

The new sellers, they need to learn the sales motion and then they need to be audited, instrumented, so the faster the loops are on that, the better off you're going to be.

新卖家需要学习销售动作，然后需要接受审核和检测，因此循环越快，你的情况就会越好。

If the loops are once a day of listening to their calls or maybe even a longer interval, then just the correction loops are just going to be way too slow, versus if you're sitting next to somebody or you're sitting amongst three or four people and listening to all their calls concurrently and then they get off of a call and it's like, "Hey, that was really good, correction here, correction here, correction here, correction here.

如果循环是每天一次听他们的电话，或者甚至是更长的间隔，那么校正循环就会太慢，而如果你坐在某人旁边，或者你坐在三四个人中间，同时听他们所有的电话，然后他们结束通话，就像是，“嘿，这真的很好，这里校正，这里校正，这里校正，这里校正。

Here, run it back to me."

来，把它还给我。”

Pete Kazanjy: Now, the loops, the speed with which you're able to update their software and make sure that the sales motion is running appropriately on them, is quite high.

Pete Kazanjy：现在，循环、更新软件并确保销售动作在其上正确运行的速度非常高。

In early-stage startups, that's the only thing that matters, it's a race against time to make sure that you get to success, so you can raise your next round of financing or get to profitability or what have you, and so having asynchronous distance is really problematic for that, especially for junior folks, like SDRs, junior AEs, all of that, it really is problematic.

在早期创业公司中，这是唯一重要的事情，这是一场与时间的赛跑，以确保你获得成功，这样你就可以筹集下一轮融资或实现盈利或其他什么，因此异步距离确实是有问题的，特别是对于初级人员，如 SDR、初级 AE，所有这些，这确实是有问题的。

Once that sales motion is baked and can be distributed, that's potentially a different situation, but very early on, having someone being able to sit side-by-side with your sellers, t's hard to beat.

一旦销售动议被烘烤并可以分发，情况可能会有所不同，但在很早的时候，有人能够与你的卖家并肩坐在一起，这是很难被击败的。

Lenny: So, what's the solution, if you're starting, now, a B2B company, your advice is, "Don't be remote, work in an office"?

Lenny：那么，如果您现在要创办一家 B2B 公司，那么解决方案是什么，您的建议是“不要远程办公，在办公室工作”？

Pete Kazanjy: My point of view on that is, especially at early stage, from a founder's standpoint, being shoulder-to-shoulder with your co-founders certainly, but even a founder who has a couple of sellers that they're working with, being side-by-side with them in order to help them learn faster, teach them more, have accountability, and then have training loops is really what you need to do.

Pete Kazanjy：我的观点是，特别是在早期阶段，从创始人的角度来看，当然要与联合创始人并肩作战，但即使创始人有几个正在与他们合作的卖家，与他们并肩作战，帮助他们更快地学习，教给他们更多，承担责任，然后进行培训循环，这才是你真正需要做的。

Because the alternative is there's a whole generation of SDRs who are, it's kind of like learning loss, if you will, there's a bunch of 24 year olds who have never learned the skills that are needed at the same way, at the same clip, that they would have sitting amongst 10 others with an SDR manager sitting in the middle of them, or an AE manager sitting in the middle of them.

因为另一种情况是，有一整代 SDR，这有点像学习损失，如果你愿意的话，有一群 24 岁的人从未以同样的方式、在同样的剪辑中学习过所需的技能，他们会坐在其他 10 个人中间，一个 SDR 经理坐在他们中间，或者一个 AE 经理坐在他们中间。

Lenny: Any last pieces of wisdom before we get to a very exciting lightning round?

莱尼：在我们进入激动人心的闪电回合之前，还有最后的智慧吗？

Pete Kazanjy: I think probably the biggest thing is, the thing that I just like to encourage founders and product managers and what have you, is just don't be afraid of sales.

Pete Kazanjy：我认为最重要的事情可能是，我想鼓励创始人和产品经理，不要害怕销售。

There's a lot of people out there who would love to tell you a story that it's magical or like, "Oh, you've got to be a born seller," or things like that and it's really not.

有很多人愿意给你讲一个神奇的故事，或者像“哦，你必须成为一名天生的卖家”之类的故事，但事实并非如此。

Those people are just talking their book, if you will, and so just getting good at those behaviors, it's going to benefit you in a myriad of ways.

如果你愿意的话，这些人只是在谈论他们的书，所以只要善于这些行为，它就会在很多方面使你受益。

Even if you don't want to necessarily be an early-stage founder, even as a product manager within an enterprise organization or even a consumer organization, selling behaviors and good communication and persuasion and always thinking about what's in it for them, et cetera, those are really good skills for internal selling, for external selling, if you want to interface with customers, et cetera.

即使你不一定想成为早期创始人，即使作为企业组织甚至消费者组织内的产品经理，销售行为以及良好的沟通和说服，并始终思考这对他们有什么好处等等，如果你想与客户互动，这些对于内部销售、外部销售来说都是很好的技能。

All these skills are very important and impactful for a myriad of personas.

所有这些技能对于无数角色来说都非常重要且具有影响力。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

Well, with that, we've reached the very exciting lightning round.

好了，至此，我们进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。

I've got five questions for you, we're going to go through it pretty fast.

我有五个问题要问你，我们会很快解决。

Are you ready?

你准备好了吗？

Lenny: Question one, what are two or three books that you recommend most to other people?

Lenny：问题一，你最向别人推荐的两三本书是什么？

Pete Kazanjy: The books that I recommend the most, there would be The Goal by Eli Goldratt.

Pete Kazanjy：我最推荐的书是 Eli Goldratt 的《目标》。

There are two books that inspired Atrium, one is the Goal, which is essentially is a novelization of the Toyota lean manufacturing system, so it's a process engineering book written as a novel, it's really fantastic.

有两本书启发了Atrium，一本是《Goal》，本质上是丰田精益制造系统的小说，所以它是一本写成小说的流程工程书，真的很棒。

Sales organizations are just revenue factories, so if you want to think about systems thinking and processes, but in a way that's not a textbook, it's absolutely fantastic.

销售组织只是收入工厂，所以如果你想思考系统思维和流程，但以一种不是教科书的方式，那绝对是太棒了。

Pete Kazanjy: And then the other one is a book by Bill Walsh called The Score Takes Care of itself.

Pete Kazanjy：另一本是比尔·沃尔什（Bill Walsh）写的一本书，名为《分数会照顾好自己》。

Bill Walsh is a really famous football coach for the Stanford Cardinals and the San Francisco 49ers and he just broke down how you can't worry about the score in the football game, you can only worry about the things that are in front of you, that you can control, and that if you do a high quantity of high-quality actions, whatever your position is, as a quarterback or a linebacker running back or whatever, then the score will take care of itself.

比尔·沃尔什（Bill Walsh）是斯坦福红雀队和旧金山 49 人队的一位非常著名的橄榄球教练，他刚刚解释了在橄榄球比赛中你不能担心比分，你只能担心你面前的、你可以控制的事情，如果你做了大量高质量的动作，无论你的位置是什么，作为四分卫或线卫跑卫或其他什么，那么比分就会自然而然。

That's very applicable to sales, as well, if you focus on those leading indicators and make sure that you're doing it in a high quantity of high quality way, then the score will take care of itself.

这也非常适用于销售，如果您专注于这些领先指标并确保以大量高质量的方式进行，那么分数就会自然而然。

So, those are two great books I like to recommend to folks.

所以，这是我想向人们推荐的两本好书。

Pete Kazanjy: Oh boy, I don't listen to too many.

Pete Kazanjy：天啊，我听的不多。

I listen to Lenny's and I listen to the All-In Podcast, just so I can get my fill of doom and gloom.

我听莱尼的播客，也听 All-In 播客，这样我就可以充分感受到厄运和忧郁。

Lenny: And knowledge, with this one.

莱尼：还有知识，就这个。

Favorite recent movie or TV show that you've really enjoyed?

您最近最喜欢的最喜欢的电影或电视节目？

Pete Kazanjy: I've got a five-year-old, so we're all Disney all the time, so I think probably the one that's been on repeat recently has been Encanto.

Pete Kazanjy：我有一个五岁的孩子，所以我们一直都是迪士尼的，所以我想最近重播的可能是《Encanto》。

There you go.

就这样吧。

Lenny: Love that one.

莱尼：喜欢那个。

Favorite interview question that you like to ask folks?

您最喜欢问别人的面试问题是？

Pete Kazanjy: So, I'm going to change this up on you, it's less about interview questions.

Pete Kazanjy：所以，我要对你做出一些改变，这与面试问题无关。

One of the things I'm a really big fan of is job simulation, especially in sales, and so I'm a big fan of doing screens, so we actually have a written screen that we do with folks, where it's the Google Doc that has a dozen or so biographical questions that we allow people to answer.

我非常喜欢的事情之一是工作模拟，尤其是在销售领域，所以我非常喜欢做屏幕，所以我们实际上有一个与人们一起做的书面屏幕，其中有谷歌文档，其中有十几个左右的传记问题，我们允许人们回答。

You'd be shocked at how well it screens people, 57% people won't do it.

你会对它对人的筛查效果感到震惊，57% 的人不会这样做。

These are not complicated questions, it's like, "Lenny, tell me about something that you've built that you're proud of," it's a dozen of those questions.

这些不是复杂的问题，就像是，“莱尼，告诉我一些你所构建的让你引以为傲的东西，”这是一打这样的问题。

So, one, you can filter out people who are not serious, you can filter out people who have low levels of give a shit.

所以，第一，你可以过滤掉那些不认真的人，你可以过滤掉那些不在乎程度低的人。

You also can see whether or not people can communicate in a compelling fashion with a beginning, a middle, and an end.

您还可以看到人们是否能够以令人信服的方式进行交流，包括开头、中间和结尾。

You can also see their attention to detail, whether or not it's ridden with typos or they forget to answer some of them or what have you.

你还可以看到他们对细节的关注，无论是否充满拼写错误，或者他们忘记回答其中的一些问题或你有什么。

So, it's not an interview question thing, but that's a huge hiring hack, from my perspective.

所以，这不是一个面试问题，但从我的角度来看，这是一个巨大的招聘技巧。

Lenny: This is a form that folks fill out when they're trying to apply to work at Atrium, is that right?

Lenny：这是人们在尝试申请 Atrium 工作时填写的表格，对吗？

Pete Kazanjy: Yeah.

皮特·卡赞吉：是的。

Or it's just something that for all my portfolio companies, as well, that people just use it.

或者，对于我所有的投资组合公司来说，人们也只是使用它。

It's a Google Doc and you just clone it, give it to them, "You have edit rights, let me know when it's done." You'd be shocked, people are like, "Oh, I didn't forgot to do it." Great, you told me everything I need.

这是一个谷歌文档，你只需克隆它，把它交给他们，“你有编辑权限，完成后告诉我。”你会感到震惊，人们会说，“哦，我没有忘记这样做。”太好了，你告诉了我我需要的一切。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

Final question, do you have a favorite story of you or a salesperson closing an awesome deal, something that seemed impossible, something that you're proud of?

最后一个问题，您或销售人员是否有最喜欢的故事，关于完成一笔很棒的交易，一些看似不可能的事情，一些让您感到自豪的事情？

Pete Kazanjy: There's a gentleman in our sales organization named Sean, who was an early seller here, he's now a sales manager, he is absolutely fantastic.

Pete Kazanjy：我们的销售组织中有一位名叫 Sean 的绅士，他是这里的早期销售人员，现在是销售经理，他非常棒。

I think one of the things that early-stage founders and also sellers have to remember is you're, generally speaking, not going to close the deal on the first time through the pipe.

我认为早期创始人和卖家必须记住的一件事是，一般来说，你不会在第一次通过渠道完成交易。

As we discussed earlier, if you have a 30% win rate, that's pretty great.

正如我们之前讨论的，如果你有 30% 的胜率，那已经相当不错了。

If you have a 20% win rate, that's pretty solid, but that still means that four out of five are not going to close, but the next time around, they might, so win rate on the second time through the pipeline.

如果你有 20% 的胜率，那是相当可靠的，但这仍然意味着五分之四不会结束，但下一次，他们可能会，所以第二次通过管道的胜率。

Pete Kazanjy: So, Sean closed, one of our biggest customers is a company called GRIN, they're absolutely fantastic.

Pete Kazanjy：所以，肖恩，我们最大的客户之一是一家名为 GRIN 的公司，他们非常棒。

They make influencer management software for brands, very cool stuff.

他们为品牌制作影响者管理软件，非常酷的东西。

I think Sean probably ran three or four ops with them before we were able to get a toehold in the account a couple years ago, they were much smaller, and so now, I think they have 100 SDRs and 80 AEs that are being managed using Atrium.

我认为几年前，在我们能够在帐户中站稳脚跟之前，Sean 可能与他们进行了三到四次操作，它们规模要小得多，所以现在，我认为他们有 100 个 SDR 和 80 个 AE，正在使用 Atrium 进行管理。

So, I think there's a good lesson there, which is it's not necessarily going to be the first time through the pipe and it's maybe not the second time, but you just have to keep pushing that boulder up the hill and eventually, when you do, good things happen.

所以，我认为这是一个很好的教训，这不一定是第一次通过管道，也可能不是第二次，但你只需要继续将巨石推上山，最终，当你这样做时，好事就会发生。

Lenny: What a great lesson to leave us with, very empowering.

莱尼：给我们留下了多么宝贵的一课，非常有力量。

Pete, this was everything I hoped it would be.

皮特，这就是我所希望的一切。

Two final questions, where can folks find you online if they want to learn more, more about Atrium, the book, and then how can folks be useful to you?

最后两个问题，如果人们想了解更多关于 Atrium 这本书的信息，他们可以在哪里找到您，然后人们如何对您有用？

Pete Kazanjy: I'm pretty easy to find online, I'm the only Pete Kazanjy in the United States, as far as I can tell.

Pete Kazanjy：我很容易在网上找到，据我所知，我是美国唯一的 Pete Kazanjy。

Google will autocorrect my name if you Google it wrong, so that's pretty helpful.

如果你用谷歌搜索错误，谷歌会自动更正我的名字，所以这非常有帮助。

Find me on LinkedIn, find me on Twitter.

在 LinkedIn 上找到我，在 Twitter 上找到我。

You can also find Founding Sales at foundingsales.com, as Lenny notes.

Lenny 指出，您还可以在foundingsales.com 上找到Founding Sales。

The whole book is available online as hypertext, you can buy a physical copy, as well, but the reason why my wife put it into a Squarespace site was because we wanted people to be able to search it and come back to it and use it as a reference and so on and so forth.

整本书都可以在网上以超文本形式提供，你也可以购买实体书，但我妻子将其放入 Squarespace 网站的原因是因为我们希望人们能够搜索它并返回它并将其用作参考等等。

And then in terms of how folks can be helpful to me, if you work for an organization that has between 10 and 300 salespeople and you're looking to manage them better via metric, make them more efficient, that's a big watch word these days, is efficient sales organizations through better management, Atrium is fantastic for that.

然后就人们如何对我提供帮助而言，如果您在一个拥有 10 到 300 名销售人员的组织中工作，并且您希望通过指标更好地管理他们，使他们更有效率，这是当今的一个重要口号，即通过更好的管理来提高销售组织的效率，Atrium 非常适合这一点。

Atriumhq.com is the domain, but you can also just Google Atrium sales and we'll be the top result, as well.

Atriumhq.com 是域名，但您也可以仅 Google Atrium 销售，我们也将成为最佳结果。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

Pete, thank you for being here.

皮特，谢谢你来到这里。

Pete Kazanjy: It was awesome.

皮特·卡赞吉：太棒了。

Thanks, Lenny.

谢谢，莱尼。

Lenny: Thank you so much for listening.

莱尼：非常感谢您的聆听。

If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.

如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review, as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.

您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。