Redefining success, money, and belonging | Paul Millerd (The Pathless Path)

Paul Millerd: Take three hours during a workday.

Paul Millerd：工作日花三个小时。

Has to be during a workday.

必须在工作日期间。

Block off your schedule, sneak out.

划掉你的日程，偷偷溜出去。

People can pull this off.

人们可以做到这一点。

Go for a walk without a destination or do something from your childhood that you used to do all the time.

去一次没有目的地的散步，或者做一些你小时候经常做的事情。

Did you use to play basketball?

你以前打篮球吗？

Did you use to paint?

你用过画画吗？

Did you use to play an instrument?

你以前演奏过乐器吗？

And just pay attention.

只要注意即可。

What is emerging?

正在出现什么？

Do you feel bad for sneaking out of work?

你会因为偷偷下班而感到难过吗？

Where does that bad feeling come from?

这种不好的感觉从何而来？

What does that mean about your definition of work and what work means to you?

您对工作的定义意味着什么？工作对您意味着什么？

Paul Millerd: A lot of people have never really thought about, why do you work?

保罗·米勒德：很多人从来没有真正想过，你为什么工作？

People say money.

人们说钱。

Okay, that's fine.

好吧，没关系。

But what else?

但还有什么？

Why?

为什么？

Are you trying to be a good person?

你想努力做一个好人吗？

Do you see a good person as somebody that works every day?

你认为一个好人就是每天工作的人吗？

Maybe.

或许。

These are a lot of scripts people grow up with.

这些是人们成长过程中的很多脚本。

You're really just creating this space to get in touch with, how do I actually feel about work?

你实际上只是创建这个空间来进行联系，我对工作的真实感受如何？

How do I get to know myself more?

我怎样才能更多地了解自己？

Are there things that I've lost touch with that really bring me alive?

有没有一些我已经失去联系的东西真正让我活着？

Lenny: Today my guest is Paul Millerd.

莱尼：今天我的客人是保罗·米勒德。

Paul is the author of The Pathless Path: Imagining a New Story for Work and Life.

保罗是《无路可走：想象工作和生活的新故事》一书的作者。

His book is getting a lot of traction within the tech community, because it explores a different way of living, essentially breaking free of the default path for your work and your life that we all basically start on.

他的书在科技界引起了很大的关注，因为它探索了一种不同的生活方式，从本质上打破了我们基本上开始的工作和生活的默认路径。

What Paul describes in his book is almost exactly the path I took to figure out this very weird and wonderful work that I do now with the newsletter and podcast.

保罗在他的书中所描述的几乎正是我现在通过时事通讯和播客来弄清楚这项非常奇怪而精彩的工作所采取的路径。

And because of that, I think this is an important conversation to have, because it may inspire you to explore a different path in your own life.

正因为如此，我认为这是一次重要的对话，因为它可能会激励你探索自己生活中不同的道路。

Lenny: In our conversation, Paul explains what the pathless path is, how to go about exploring your own pathless path, how to address fears we all have around money, and prestige, and safety that keep us on the default path, plus tons of stories and examples, and very tactical advice for thinking about exploring a new direction in your own life.

莱尼：在我们的谈话中，保罗解释了什么是无路可走的道路，如何去探索自己的无路可走，如何解决我们对金钱、声望和安全的恐惧，这些恐惧让我们走在默认的道路上，还有大量的故事和例子，以及关于思考在自己的生活中探索新方向的非常战术性的建议。

With that, I bring you Paul Millerd after a short word from our sponsors.

在我们的赞助商简短发言后，我为您带来了保罗·米勒德。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Sanity.

莱尼：这一集是由理智给你带来的。

Your website is the heart of your growth engine.

您的网站是您增长引擎的核心。

For that engine to drive big results, you need to be able to move super fast, ship new content, experiment, learn, and iterate.

为了使该引擎能够带来巨大的成果，您需要能够超快地行动、发布新内容、进行实验、学习和迭代。

But most content management systems just aren't built for this.

但大多数内容管理系统并不是为此而构建的。

Your content teams wrestle with rigid interfaces as they build new pages.

您的内容团队在构建新页面时会与严格的界面作斗争。

You spend endless time copying and pasting across pages, and recreating content for other channels and applications.

您花费无尽的时间跨页面复制和粘贴，并为其他渠道和应用程序重新创建内容。

And their ideas for new experiments are squashed when developers can't build them within the constraints of outdated tech.

当开发人员无法在过时技术的限制下构建新实验的想法时，他们的新实验想法就会被压制。

Lenny: Forward-thinking companies like Figma, Amplitude, Loom, Riot Games, Linear, and more use sanity to build content growth engines that scale, drive innovation, and accelerate customer acquisition.

Lenny：Figma、Amplitude、Loom、Riot Games、Linear 等具有前瞻性思维的公司利用理智来构建内容增长引擎，以扩展规模、推动创新并加速客户获取。

With Sanity, your team can dream bigger and move faster.

有了 Sanity，您的团队就能梦想更大、行动更快。

Lenny: As the most powerful headless CMS on the market, you can tailor editorial workflows to match your business.

Lenny：作为市场上最强大的无头 CMS，您可以定制编辑工作流程以匹配您的业务。

Reuse content seamlessly across any pager channel and bring your ideas to market without developer friction.

在任何寻呼机渠道中无缝地重用内容，并将您的想法推向市场，而不会造成开发人员的摩擦。

Sanity makes life better for your whole team.

理智让整个团队的生活变得更好。

It's fast for developers to build with, intuitive for content managers, and it integrates seamlessly with the rest of your tech stack.

它对于开发人员来说构建速度很快，对于内容管理者来说很直观，并且它与您的技术堆栈的其余部分无缝集成。

Get started with Sanity's generous free plan.

开始使用 Sanity 慷慨的免费计划。

And as a Lenny's Podcast listener, you can get a boosted plan with double the monthly usage.

作为 Lenny's Podcast 听众，您可以获得每月使用量双倍的增强计划。

Head over to sanity.io/lenny to get started for free.

前往 sanity.io/lenny 免费开始。

That's sanity.io/lenny.

那是 sanity.io/lenny。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Maui Nui Venison, a mission-based food company bringing the healthiest red meat on the planet directly to your door.

Lenny：本集由 Maui Nui Venison 为您带来，Maui Nui Venison 是一家以使命为基础的食品公司，将地球上最健康的红肉直接送到您家门口。

I actually joined Maui Nui Venison earlier this year, after hearing their ad on the Tim Ferriss podcast, and I'm excited to be spreading the message further.

事实上，我今年早些时候加入了 Maui Nui Venison，在 Tim Ferriss 播客上听到他们的广告后，我很高兴能够进一步传播这一信息。

Not only does this company provide the most nutrient dense and protein dense red meat available.

该公司不仅提供营养最丰富、蛋白质最丰富的红肉。

Their operation produces the only stress-free, 100% wild harvested red meat on the market, that is the only one of its kind in the world, actively managing Maui's invasive axis deer populations, helping to restore balance to vulnerable ecosystems, food systems, and communities in Hawaii.

他们的业务生产市场上唯一无压力、100% 野生收获的红肉，这是世界上独一无二的，积极管理毛伊岛的入侵轴鹿种群，帮助恢复夏威夷脆弱的生态系统、粮食系统和社区的平衡。

Also, it is seriously delicious, not at all gamey, and easy to cook.

而且，它非常美味，一点也不腥，而且很容易烹饪。

My wife and I made stew, and steaks, and all kinds of grilled goodies with the meat.

我和我的妻子做了炖菜、牛排和各种烤肉。

Lenny: We also feel great about it as a protein from an ethical standpoint.

莱尼：从道德角度来看，我们也对它作为一种蛋白质感到非常满意。

I highly recommend trying their all natural venison jerky sticks for an optimal protein snack, as well as a wide variety of fresh cuts all available in their online butcher shop.

我强烈建议尝试他们的全天然鹿肉干棒，以获得最佳的蛋白质零食，以及各种新鲜切块，所有这些都可以在他们的在线肉店购买。

There are limited memberships available, but you can sign up and get 20% off your first order at mauinuivenison.com/lenny.

会员名额有限，但您可以在 mauinuivenison.com/lenny 注册并享受首笔订单 20% 的折扣。

That's mauinuivenison.com/lenny.

那是 mauinuivenison.com/lenny。

Lenny: Paul, thank you so much for being here.

莱尼：保罗，非常感谢你来到这里。

Welcome to the podcast.

欢迎来到播客。

Lenny: I'm more excited to have you on.

莱尼：有你在，我更兴奋。

You published a book called The Pathless Path, which I have right here.

你出版了一本名为《无路可走》的书，我这里有这本书。

Last I heard you've sold over 40,000 copies of this book, which I know puts it in the top 1% of books sold, possibly in the top 0.1% of books sold.

上次我听说这本书的销量超过 40,000 册，据我所知，这本书已跻身销量前 1% 的行列，甚至可能跻身销量前 0.1% 的行列。

It's an absurdly high number for books sold.

对于书籍销售来说，这个数字高得离谱。

People don't really know this.

人们并不真正知道这一点。

And especially for a self-published book, it's a huge success.

尤其是对于一本自行出版的书来说，这是一个巨大的成功。

Lenny: And I thought it would be good to start with a concept that you call the default path.

莱尼：我认为最好从一个称为默认路径的概念开始。

What is the default path?

默认路径是什么？

Paul Millerd: Yeah, I think the default path is different for everyone and slightly different in every different culture.

Paul Millerd：是的，我认为每个人的默认路径都是不同的，并且在不同的文化中也略有不同。

It's really the story in your head about what you should do.

这实际上是你脑海中关于你应该做什么的故事。

And most of us have some sort of script that we're living out.

我们大多数人都有某种我们正在生活的脚本。

This is especially powerful when we're in our late teens and early twenties, right?

当我们十几岁和二十岁出头时，这种能力尤其强大，对吗？

We're trying to execute a script.

我们正在尝试执行一个脚本。

Paul Millerd: And it can be different in every country.

Paul Millerd：每个国家的情况可能有所不同。

In the US it's sort of like go to college, get good grades, get a good job, make a good salary, buy a house, get married, have a family, things like that.

在美国，这有点像上大学，取得好成绩，找到一份好工作，赚一份好薪水，买房子，结婚，组建家庭，诸如此类。

And when it comes to work, the default path is get a job and work continuously for all of adulthood.

当谈到工作时，默认的路径是找到一份工作并在整个成年期持续工作。

Paul Millerd: And when you opt out of the default path, there aren't really offerings.

Paul Millerd：当您选择退出默认路径时，就没有真正的产品了。

People have a hard time even contemplating it.

人们连想都觉得困难。

You'll trigger insecurities in other people by just existing outside the frame of the default path.

如果你存在于默认路径的框架之外，就会引发其他人的不安全感。

And it's the default path in their head of their conception of how the world should work and does work, right?

这是他们头脑中关于世界应该如何运作以及如何运作的默认路径，对吗？

Paul Millerd: So a lot of what I explore is what is life beyond the default path, and what are the stories we can use to one, at minimum, feel better about what we're doing?

保罗·米勒德：所以我探索的很多内容都是超越默认路径的生活是什么，以及我们可以利用哪些故事至少让我们对我们正在做的事情感觉更好？

And two, what are the stories we can adopt to thrive?

第二，我们可以采用哪些故事来促进发展？

Lenny: I imagine many people listening to this are feeling like, "No way I'm on the default path.

莱尼：我想很多人听到这个都会有这样的感觉：“我不可能走在默认的道路上。

I'm doing so many interesting things.

我正在做很多有趣的事情。

I'm doing what I want," but they probably still are on this default path.

我正在做我想做的事”，但他们可能仍然在这条默认路径上。

What are some signs that might tell you that you actually still are on this path, and there's such a new direction you could explore that you haven't explored?

有哪些迹象可能会告诉你，你实际上仍然走在这条路上，并且有一个你还没有探索过的新方向可以探索？

Paul Millerd: Yeah, I think there's nothing wrong with the default path.

Paul Millerd：是的，我认为默认路径没有任何问题。

The difference I would make is, are you conscious about what you're actually doing?

我要做出的改变是，你是否意识到自己实际上在做什么？

What are the costs of your game?

你的游戏的成本是多少？

What are the trade-offs?

有哪些权衡？

What are the implicit contracts are you creating with yourself?

您与自己建立了哪些隐性契约？

A lot of times when people quit their jobs, they forget to fire the manager in their head.

很多时候，当人们辞职时，他们脑子里忘记了解雇经理。

They don't realize they can take the afternoon off to spend it with their kids.

他们没有意识到他们可以抽出下午的时间与孩子们一起度过。

They've created this implicit contract that Monday through Friday, eight to 10 hours a week you have to work.

他们制定了这个隐性合同，从周一到周五，你每周必须工作 8 到 10 个小时。

And that may work for people, but are you actually opting into that, or are you just sort of accepting the default?

这可能对人们有用，但你真的选择这样做，还是只是接受默认设置？

Lenny: I think it's a really important point.

莱尼：我认为这是非常重要的一点。

It's totally fine to stay on this default path.

保持这条默认路径完全没问题。

It's not for everyone to try something totally different.

并不是每个人都可以尝试完全不同的东西。

Can you talk a little bit about just how to think about the benefits of that and the trade-offs of, "Okay, this is great, I'm going to stay where I am"?

您能否谈谈如何考虑这样做的好处和权衡，“好吧，这很棒，我要留在原地”？

Paul Millerd: It's interesting.

保罗·米勒德：这很有趣。

I did not think my book would resonate with people that were firmly in the traditional work role.

我认为我的书不会引起那些坚定地从事传统工作角色的人们的共鸣。

Full-time jobs, big companies, things like that.

全职工作、大公司等等。

But I've had many people reach out that say, "Wow, this sort of loosened the tightness between my identity and my work reality, and loosened it up a little bit.

但很多人跟我说：“哇，这放松了我的身份和工作现实之间的紧密关系，并且放松了一点。

And I'm able to play with it a little more." I had one friend, he said, "From your book, I made a list of the four priorities.

而且我可以多玩一点。”我有一个朋友，他说，“从你的书中，我列出了四个优先事项。

Right now I'm getting three of them.

现在我得到了其中三个。

And it's helped me become more aware that I'm actually getting these three things that I prioritize.

它帮助我更加意识到我实际上得到了我优先考虑的这三件事。

I'm missing the fourth.

我错过了第四个。

I'm probably going to have to make a change two years from now.

两年后我可能不得不做出改变。

Maybe another role, because I do want to lean into that fourth thing." I think it's really just about remixing your path.

也许是另一个角色，因为我确实想专注于第四件事。”我认为这实际上只是重新混合你的道路。

My hot take is that we're all on a pathless path.

我的热门观点是我们都走在一条无路可走的路上。

You were at Airbnb.

你在爱彼迎。

Airbnb, every two years were there was a different company.

Airbnb，每两年就会有一家不同的公司。

Paul Millerd: Right?

保罗·米勒德：对吗？

And so we're constantly needing to reinvent and reevaluate.

因此，我们不断需要重新发明和重新评估。

And I think thinking of our lives as this smooth trajectory up this corporate ascent sort of limits the possibilities of our own life.

我认为，将我们的生活视为公司上升的平稳轨迹有点限制了我们自己生活的可能性。

So just acknowledging that we are being disrupted.

因此，只需承认我们正在受到干扰。

We all have personal lives where we have relationship challenges, health challenges, external shocks, inflation, things like this, that are changing our reality all the time.

我们都有个人生活，我们面临着人际关系挑战、健康挑战、外部冲击、通货膨胀，诸如此类的事情，它们一直在改变我们的现实。

Paul Millerd: And it sort of sucks that there aren't these comfortable middle class jobs that are growing and abundant.

保罗·米勒德：没有这些不断增长且丰富的舒适的中产阶级工作，这有点糟糕。

They're shrinking.

它们正在萎缩。

David Autor, a economist from MIT, has pretty good research on this, and it's just making people a little more unsettled.

麻省理工学院的经济学家大卫·奥托尔对此有相当好的研究，但这只是让人们更加不安。

It sucks, but this is the reality we're living in, especially places like the US becoming super tech heavy.

这很糟糕，但这就是我们生活的现实，尤其是像美国这样变得超级科技发达的地方。

And how do you navigate that?

你如何驾驭它？

It's hard.

这很难。

Everyone's struggling with their relationship to work.

每个人都在处理与工作的关系上。

Lenny: Let's actually talk about the pathless path.

莱尼：我们实际上来谈谈无路可走。

You've been kind of touching on various ways of thinking about it.

您已经谈到了思考这个问题的各种方式。

What's the simplest way of thinking about this concept of the pathless path?

思考无路之道这个概念的最简单方法是什么？

Paul Millerd: I really shied away from trying to define it super clearly.

Paul Millerd：我真的很回避试图非常清晰地定义它。

I think I have this passage at the beginning of the book that it's like the pathless path is basically a shift away from the default.

我想我在书的开头有这样一段话，无路可走的道路基本上是对默认设置的转变。

It's a shift away from not knowing what you're doing as a problem to be solved toward an embrace of uncomfort, discomfort, and uncertainty.

这是一种转变，从不知道自己在做什么作为一个需要解决的问题，转向拥抱不舒服、不舒服和不确定性。

Paul Millerd: And it's sort of a personal journey of shifting away from operating around scarcity towards operating from a sense of abundance, having faith that things might be okay.

保罗·米勒德：这是一种个人旅程，从围绕稀缺性运作转向从丰富感运作，并相信一切都会好起来。

And on a path like yours, this is a necessary condition.

在你这样的道路上，这是一个必要条件。

You have no idea what comes next, because nobody has been on the Lenny path before.

你不知道接下来会发生什么，因为之前没有人走过莱尼之路。

Paul Millerd: Right?

保罗·米勒德：对吗？

And a lot of us are in this situation.

我们很多人都处于这种情况。

Now if you're an accountant at an accounting firm in your early twenties, maybe there is a track, and you can sort of plan it, and it's pretty legible.

现在，如果你是二十岁出头的一家会计师事务所的会计师，也许有一条轨迹，你可以对其进行某种计划，而且它非常清晰。

But even still, I would argue that developing a relationship with uncertainty, not knowing what's happening, experimenting a little more, it's all of these things in one.

但即便如此，我仍然认为，在不确定的情况下发展一种关系，不知道正在发生什么，多做一些实验，所有这些都是一体的。

And it's sort of my attempt to come up with a better narrative around work.

这是我尝试围绕工作提出更好的叙述。

Paul Millerd: And it's been pretty cool, because a lot of people are embracing this and now using the term like, "I'm on my pathless path." And it allows people to sort of name it and gives them comfort.

保罗·米勒德：这非常酷，因为很多人都接受这一点，并且现在使用这样的术语，“我正走在无路可走的道路上。”它允许人们给它命名并给他们带来安慰。

Paul Millerd: I've had people email me that have been on a path for seven years, and they're like, "This is the first time I actually felt okay about my path," because a lot of what my book is, is an exploration of, why does it feel so weird to do your own thing?

保罗·米勒德：有人给我发电子邮件，告诉我已经在一条道路上走了七年，他们说，“这是我第一次真正对自己的道路感到满意”，因为我的书的很多内容都是探索，为什么做自己的事情感觉这么奇怪？

Why does it actually feel shameful to leave a full-time job?

为什么离开全职工作实际上会让人感到羞耻？

Which is an aberration in the history of the world.

这是世界历史上的一个反常现象。

Lenny: I imagine a big question everyone's mind right now is, "This sounds amazing.

莱尼：我想现在每个人心里都有一个大问题，“这听起来太棒了。

I would love to just do the work I love and break out of this path.

我很乐意做我喜欢的工作并突破这条道路。

How do I do that?" And I want to talk about that.

我该怎么做呢？”我想谈谈这个。

But before we do that, what are some examples of pathless paths people have ended up doing?

但在此之前，我们先来看看人们最终走上了哪些无路可走的道路的例子？

Something just to make it a little more real of, here's what people have ended up doing with their life.

为了让它更真实一些，这就是人们最终在生活中所做的事情。

Paul Millerd: So I think it ranges from a short sabbatical.

保罗·米勒德：所以我认为这包括短暂的休假。

And to someone like you or me who are sort of on this path and committed to this creator path, and things like that, there's a huge component of their creator economy.

对于像你我这样走在这条道路上并致力于这条创造者道路的人来说，他们的创造者经济中有一个巨大的组成部分。

Not the creator economy from a VC perspective of all these startups that are going to save creators, but creators that are actually betting on themselves, finding some deeper satisfaction, a better relationship with work and committing to it.

从风险投资的角度来看，所有这些初创公司都将拯救创作者，但创作者经济并不是真正的创作者经济，而是那些实际上把赌注押在自己身上的创作者，他们找到了更深层次的满足感，与工作建立了更好的关系，并全身心投入其中。

But it also encompasses people that are independent freelancers, that have a stable path, more predictable income than creator economy stuff.

但它也包括独立自由职业者，他们有稳定的道路，比创造者经济的收入更可预测。

And it also includes people that are jumping from job to job.

它还包括跳槽的人。

Paul Millerd: I also have examples of people that are older.

保罗·米勒德：我也有老年人的例子。

I talk to a lot of people in their fifties.

我和很多五十多岁的人交谈过。

They've solved their financial problems, but they've lost that sense of aliveness.

他们解决了财务问题，但失去了活力。

And they're looking to re-inject that, and they need maps of how to approach that, how to think about that, what are the models, things like that.

他们正在寻求重新注入这一点，他们需要如何实现这一目标、如何思考这一点、模型是什么等等的地图。

Paul Millerd: So yeah, it's a pretty big umbrella.

保罗·米勒德：是的，这是一把相当大的雨伞。

It's a nice way to claim everyone's path, but I think the shared ethic is really a sense of possibility, and opportunity, and optimism.

这是声明每个人的道路的好方法，但我认为共同的道德实际上是一种可能性、机会和乐观的感觉。

Lenny: So just to kind of list out some of these end, and I think what's interesting is there's no end to this.

莱尼：所以只是列出其中的一些结束，我认为有趣的是这没有结束。

It's an endless path to continue discovering.

这是一条永无止尽的探索之路。

There's actually this quote that I wrote down here that I'll read that I think is a really nice way of thinking about this pathless path.

实际上，我在这里写下了这句话，我将阅读它，我认为这是思考这条无路可走的道路的一种非常好的方式。

"The goal is not to find a job, make money, build a business, or achieve any other metric.

“我们的目标不是找到工作、赚钱、创办企业或实现任何其他指标。

It's to actively and consciously search for the work that you want to keep doing."

就是主动、有意识地寻找你想继续做的工作。”

Paul Millerd: The big shift there, the big shift for me actually, when I left my job, I wanted to run away.

保罗·米勒德：这是一个巨大的转变，实际上对我来说也是一个巨大的转变，当我离开工作时，我想逃跑。

I wanted to escape work.

我想逃避工作。

I wanted to not work.

我不想工作。

And I more or less accomplished that.

我或多或少做到了这一点。

I basically lowered my cost of living in Asia to about 1,000 per month.

我基本上把在亚洲的生活费用降低到每月1000左右。

Paul Millerd: But then I started developing this relationship with writing, and creating, and all these things I actually really enjoyed.

保罗·米勒德：但后来我开始与写作、创作以及所有这些我真正喜欢的事情发展这种关系。

And I wasn't doing them to be famous or grow a following.

我做这些事并不是为了出名或吸引追随者。

I just really liked them and I liked doing it in public, because I was meeting others that were engaging on these ideas.

我真的很喜欢他们，我喜欢在公共场合这样做，因为我遇到了其他参与这些想法的人。

Paul Millerd: So the big aha for me was, "Oh, you can design around liking work." The hidden assumption I had around work for the first 32, 33 years of my life was work sucks.

Paul Millerd：所以对我来说最大的惊喜是，“哦，你可以围绕喜欢的工作进行设计。”在我生命的前 32、33 年里，我对工作的隐秘假设是工作很糟糕。

You have to figure out how to tolerate it.

你必须弄清楚如何忍受它。

Paul Millerd: And within that frame, try to do your best to enjoy some of it.

保罗·米勒德：在这个框架内，尽力享受其中的一些。

But ultimately, it's a trade-off of your time.

但最终，这是你时间的权衡。

You have to suffer through it.

你必须忍受它。

A lot of it is going to suck, and you have to put up with that.

很多事情都会很糟糕，你必须忍受。

Paul Millerd: Now, I think I'm very protective of what I do and don't do.

保罗·米勒德：现在，我认为我对自己所做和不做的事情非常保护。

This is why it was very easy for me to say no to Penguin.

这就是为什么我很容易对企鹅说不。

I didn't want to write a second book for them.

我不想为他们写第二本书。

I want to write a second book the way I did, which was super fun process.

我想像我一样写第二本书，这是一个非常有趣的过程。

Writing a book was one of the most fun things I've ever done in my life.

写书是我一生中做过的最有趣的事情之一。

And so I sort of think about protecting them.

所以我有点想保护他们。

Paul Millerd: And a lot of people are looking for meaning through work in a job shaped container.

保罗·米勒德：很多人都在工作形状的容器中通过工作寻找意义。

And I think that's just really hard to find.

我认为这真的很难找到。

You can find it for short bursts, but maybe after seven or 10 years, it's just not doing it anymore.

你可以在短时间内找到它，但也许七年或十年后，它就不再这样做了。

Lenny: So let's talk about how to go about finding your pathless path and create the space and opportunity to do this.

莱尼：那么让我们来谈谈如何找到你的无路之路，并创造空间和机会来做到这一点。

Because again, a lot of people listening are like, "I have bills to pay.

因为很多人听后都会说：“我有账单要付。

I got kids to take care of.

我有孩子要照顾。

I got a home, I got a mortgage.

我有房子，我有抵押贷款。

I can't just go on a sabbatical, explore, travel, and find here I'm going to start a newsletter." So what have you found are ways to enable this exploration without risking everything?

我不能只是去休假、探索、旅行，然后发现我要在这里开始撰写时事通讯。”那么，您找到了哪些方法可以在不冒一切风险的情况下进行这种探索呢？

Paul Millerd: A three month sabbatical is much more attainable than people think.

保罗·米勒德：三个月的休假比人们想象的要容易得多。

Companies are desperate to keep people and are much more open to things like this these days.

如今，公司迫切希望留住人才，并且对此类事情更加开放。

And the way I frame it is if you're assuming you're going to work continuously in adulthood, that's about 500 months.

我的框架是，如果你假设你在成年后要连续工作，那就是大约 500 个月。

Try to find three months of that where you can create space and reconnect with yourself, explore things, just see what emerges, see how you feel.

尝试找到三个月的时间，在那里你可以创造空间并与自己重新联系，探索事物，看看会发生什么，看看你的感受如何。

I think this is so vital for people in their thirties or forties who've worked for 10 years just to reconnect with themselves.

我认为这对于三四十岁的人来说非常重要，他们工作了十年只是为了重新与自己建立联系。

Paul Millerd: And three months in a total of 500 months, people accomplish much more impressive things than that, like saving for their dream home.

Paul Millerd：在总共 500 个月中的三个月里，人们完成了比这更令人印象深刻的事情，比如为他们的梦想家园存钱。

That is such a powerful thing people aim for that they make it happen.

人们的目标如此强大，以至于他们实现了这一目标。

Even people that don't have a ton are able to make that happen, because it is such an important priority.

即使是没有很多钱的人也能做到这一点，因为这是一个非常重要的优先事项。

And for me, I think creating this space was more important than owning a house, getting married.

对我来说，我认为创造这个空间比拥有房子、结婚更重要。

It was the most important thing for me.

这对我来说是最重要的。

Paul Millerd: And I actually quoted your piece.

保罗·米勒德：我实际上引用了你的文章。

I pulled up the quote.

我调出了报价。

It said, "Lenny Rachitsky took a sabbatical after a long career in product management, thought he would return to work.

它说：“莱尼·拉奇茨基在产品管理领域度过了漫长的职业生涯后，休假了一段时间，认为他会重返工作岗位。

But by the end of the break, it was crystal clear to me that I was ready to move on to a new adventure." And then you said several weeks into your sabbatical, you stopped checking your email.

但在休息结束时，我很清楚我已经准备好开始新的冒险了。”然后你说休假几周后，你就不再检查电子邮件了。

"My heart was no longer in the work.

“我的心不再放在工作上。

I didn't yet know what I wanted to do next, but I knew it was time to shake things up." And you probably weren't in that state when you were still at Airbnb.

我还不知道下一步想做什么，但我知道是时候改变现状了。”当你还在 Airbnb 时，你可能并不处于这种状态。

Lenny: That's right.

莱尼：没错。

I was super into the work.

我非常投入工作。

And I think the way I thought about it is the Kool-Aid kind of exited my bloodstream, and taking that time off kind of created separation.

我认为我的想法是酷爱饮料已经退出了我的血液，并让那段时间的休息造成了分离。

And then I started thinking, "Man, is this really what I want to be doing?" And that visceral feeling of getting excited about the work disappeared, which was crazy and scary.

然后我开始想，“伙计，这真的是我想做的吗？”那种对工作感到兴奋的发自内心的感觉消失了，这种感觉是疯狂和可怕的。

Paul Millerd: Yeah.

保罗·米勒德：是的。

And so you have smart listeners, and smart people are great at excuses.

所以你有聪明的听众，聪明的人很擅长找借口。

So they'll say, "I can't do it because of this." I always think these things are much more possible if they really are the main priority.

所以他们会说，“因为这个我做不到”。我一直认为，如果这些事情确实是首要任务，那么它们的可能性就更大。

Paul Millerd: So what I tell people is fine, don't take a sabbatical.

保罗·米勒德：所以我告诉人们的是好的，不要休假。

Take an afternoon.

花一个下午的时间。

Take three hours during a workday.

工作日花三个小时。

Has to be during a workday.

必须在工作日期间。

Block off your schedule, sneak out.

划掉你的日程，偷偷溜出去。

People can pull this off.

人们可以做到这一点。

Go for a walk without a destination, or do something from your childhood that you used to do all the time.

去没有目的地的散步，或者做一些你小时候经常做的事情。

Did you use to play basketball?

你以前打篮球吗？

Did you use to paint?

你用过画画吗？

Did you use to play an instrument?

你以前演奏过乐器吗？

Do one of those two things, even better if you do both.

做这两件事之一，如果两者都做就更好了。

Paul Millerd: And just pay attention.

保罗·米勒德：只要注意即可。

It's a sort of form of work mindfulness.

这是工作正念的一种形式。

What is emerging?

正在出现什么？

Do you feel bad for sneaking out of work?

你会因为偷偷下班而感到难过吗？

Where does that bad feeling come from?

这种不好的感觉从何而来？

What does that mean about your definition of work and what work means to you?

您对工作的定义意味着什么？工作对您意味着什么？

Paul Millerd: A lot of people have never really thought about, why do you work?

保罗·米勒德：很多人从来没有真正想过，你为什么工作？

People say money.

人们说钱。

Okay, that's fine.

好吧，没关系。

But what else?

但还有什么？

Why do you work?

你为什么工作？

Are you trying to be a good person?

你想努力做一个好人吗？

Do you see a good person as somebody that works every day?

你认为一个好人就是每天工作的人吗？

Maybe.

或许。

These are a lot of scripts people grow up with.

这些是人们成长过程中的很多脚本。

Or people that don't have a full-time job, are they bad people?

或者没有全职工作的人是坏人吗？

Paul Millerd: And so you're really just creating this space to get in touch with, how do I actually feel about work?

保罗·米勒德：所以你真的只是创造了这个空间来接触，我对工作的真实感受如何？

How do I get to know myself more?

我怎样才能更多地了解自己？

Are there things that I've lost touch with that really bring me alive?

有没有一些我已经失去联系的东西真正让我活着？

Lenny: It's interesting how much of what you described, we didn't know each other before we met for this podcast episode, but so much of what you say is exactly what happened in my path.

莱尼：有趣的是，你所描述的内容中有很多内容，在我们在播客节目中见面之前我们并不认识，但你所说的很多内容正是在我的道路上发生的事情。

I took three months off exactly.

我整整休息了三个月。

I took a sabbatical.

我请了假。

I started poking around, exploring, doing a little writing.

我开始四处探索、探索、写一些东西。

And basically led to what I do now, which is a crazy thing I never imagined in my wildest dreams.

基本上导致了我现在所做的事情，这是我在最疯狂的梦想中从未想象过的疯狂事情。

And so clearly this works.

很明显这是有效的。

Paul Millerd: Yeah, and I think people will say, "You can do that because you worked at Airbnb," or, "Oh, you can do that because you"...

Paul Millerd：是的，我认为人们会说，“你可以做到这一点，因为你在 Airbnb 工作过”，或者，“哦，你可以做到这一点，因为你”......

I've talked to hundreds of people.

我已经和数百人交谈过。

So what I did before the pandemic for years was I opened up my calendar every Wednesday and I said, anyone that wants to talk to me about work can talk to me about work.

因此，在大流行之前，我多年来所做的就是每周三打开日历，我说，任何想和我谈论工作的人都可以和我谈论工作。

Paul Millerd: So at this point, I've probably talked to 500 plus people about their relationship to work.

Paul Millerd：到目前为止，我可能已经与 500 多人谈论了他们与工作的关系。

And the reason that's not surprising about what happened to you is it happens to almost everyone.

发生在你身上的事情并不奇怪，因为它几乎发生在每个人身上。

The sabbatical almost has a 99.9% approval rating.

休假几乎有99.9%的支持率。

Paul Millerd: I talked to one person.

保罗·米勒德：我和一个人谈过。

She was like, "I took a sabbatical, I stayed at home.

她说：“我休假了，呆在家里。

My husband was still working for two months.

我丈夫还在工作两个月。

I couldn't wait to go back to work." I was like, "Cool.

我迫不及待地想回去工作。”我当时想，“酷。

You're the first person I met that didn't get anything out of a sabbatical."

你是我遇到的第一个在休假中没有得到任何东西的人。”

Lenny: That's hilarious.

莱尼：这太搞笑了。

I haven't met that person.

我没见过那个人。

So your advice is try to take a sabbatical, and you're also encouraging people to, you can actually probably do this at some point, but maybe it takes a bit of time to set people up for the fact that you're going to do this.

所以你的建议是尝试休假，你也鼓励人们这样做，你实际上可能在某个时候这样做，但也许需要一些时间让人们接受你要这样做的事实。

Maybe you need to work at the company for a while, but in your thirties or forties, it sounds like try to find time to take three months.

也许你需要在公司工作一段时间，但在三四十岁的时候，听起来像是尽量找时间花三个月的时间。

And is three months important?

三个月重要吗？

Is that what you find, that large of a block of time?

这就是你所发现的，那么大的一段时间吗？

Paul Millerd: I've found it takes six to eight weeks just to unwind.

Paul Millerd：我发现需要六到八周的时间才能放松。

Lenny: Yeah, that's exactly what I found.

莱尼：是的，这正是我发现的。

Paul Millerd: I think for me, there was the initial unwinding after six to eight weeks, and then a deeper unwinding after probably two to three years, where you start to trust yourself a little more, if you stay on the uncertain path that is.

保罗·米勒德：我认为对我来说，六到八周后会有最初的放松，然后可能在两到三年后更深层次的放松，如果你继续走在不确定的道路上，你就会开始更加相信自己。

But yeah.

但是是的。

Lenny: If founders are listening to this and feeling like, "Shit, why would I give people sabbaticals?

莱尼：如果创始人听到这个并感觉，“妈的，我为什么要给人们休假？

They're going to leave, start their own companies, find some other catalyst path.

他们将离开，创办自己的公司，寻找其他的催化剂路径。

I want them on my default path." Is there anything you could say to a founder thinking about offering sabbatical?

我希望它们位于我的默认路径上。”您对考虑提供休假的创始人有什么想说的吗？

Paul Millerd: I would say if that's their reaction, it sounds like they have an insecurity around work.

保罗·米勒德：我想说，如果这是他们的反应，听起来他们对工作缺乏安全感。

So I would interrogate that first.

所以我会首先询问这一点。

What is the implicit story they have about how much people are supposed to work and such?

关于人们应该工作多少等等，他们有什么隐含的故事？

Paul Millerd: Yeah, I don't know if it's a good employer strategy.

Paul Millerd：是的，我不知道这是否是一个好的雇主策略。

I think a decent amount of people would leave.

我认为相当一部分人会离开。

I know Intel, I have friends that have done the sabbatical at Intel.

我了解英特尔，我有朋友在英特尔休假过。

You get six weeks after seven years.

七年后你还有六个星期的时间。

Maybe after seven years, they're a bit burnt out that they don't have enough time in those six weeks to unwind.

也许七年后，他们有点精疲力尽，因为在那六周内没有足够的时间放松。

Paul Millerd: But I think getting creative, especially now that remote work is so much more common about these opportunities, to let people become the people they want to be.

保罗·米勒德：但我认为发挥创造力，尤其是现在远程工作在这些机会中变得越来越普遍，让人们成为他们想成为的人。

People leave companies because they don't see a path to be the person they want to be.

人们离开公司是因为他们看不到成为自己想成为的人的道路。

Lenny: Okay, so you take a sabbatical, or you take an afternoon, or you take a walk.

莱尼：好吧，那你就休个假，或者花一个下午的时间，或者出去散步。

You talked about be mindful for what comes up.

你谈到要留意即将发生的事情。

What are you feeling about work?

你对工作有什么感受？

What is a thing you want to do?

你想做的一件事是什么？

Do you want to go play basketball?

你想去打篮球吗？

Do you want to go draw?

你想去画画吗？

What else do you encourage people to do, to try to discover a potential new path?

您还鼓励人们做什么来尝试发现潜在的新路径？

Paul Millerd: I think meeting others.

保罗·米勒德：我想与其他人见面。

So in exercise, I'll have people do if they're curious about this...

所以在练习中，如果人们对此感到好奇，我会让他们做……

And for the most part, I don't want to convert people that like what they're doing and like traditional jobs.

在大多数情况下，我不想改变那些喜欢他们正在做的事情和喜欢传统工作的人。

But a lot of people are curious, and I say have a path expert conversation.

但很多人好奇，我说有一个路径专家对话。

Reach out to somebody, sort of like a podcast, that's ahead of you on a similar path, and just send them a message and say, really thoughtful message.

联系某人，有点像播客，在类似的道路上走在你前面，然后给他们发一条消息，说非常贴心的消息。

Say, "Hey, you're on a path a few years ahead of me.

说：“嘿，你比我领先几年。

I'm really curious about this.

我对此很好奇。

I don't have people in my life that have done things like this.

我一生中没有人做过这样的事。

Can I just pick your brain?

我可以选择你的大脑吗？

If we can't jump on a call, can I send you a list of questions?"

如果我们无法接听电话，我可以向您发送问题清单吗？”

Paul Millerd: Most people will agree to that, especially the latter if they're a writer, because writing just enables them to come up with new ideas.

保罗·米勒德：大多数人都会同意这一点，尤其是后者，如果他们是作家，因为写作只能让他们想出新的想法。

So I'll always agree to do the written questions.

所以我总是同意做书面问题。

I don't do the open calendar anymore now that I have a daughter.

现在我有了女儿，我就不再做公开日历了。

She wins my time over random stranger's booking.

她通过随机陌生人的预订赢得了我的时间。

But if people want to send me questions, I'll always answer them in text form.

但如果人们想向我发送问题，我总是会以文本形式回答。

Lenny: And again, this path doesn't have to lead to creator, artist, writer person.

莱尼：再说一次，这条路不一定会成为创造者、艺术家、作家。

It could lead to starting a new business.

它可能会导致开展新业务。

It could probably lead to a new career.

它可能会带来新的职业。

It could shift in careers.

它可能会改变职业生涯。

Is there anything else, again, of just where this could lead to people so they're like, "Oh, wow, that's interesting."

再说一次，还有什么其他的事情可以让人们觉得，“哦，哇，这很有趣。”

Paul Millerd: Somebody sent me an article today about this guy.

保罗·米勒德：今天有人给我发了一篇关于这个人的文章。

I think he was a performing artist.

我认为他是一位表演艺术家。

He became a therapist.

他成为一名治疗师。

I forget his name.

我忘记了他的名字。

But I think just the possibilities for reinventing yourself and taking different paths, working online, working flexibly, it's way more possible than 25 years ago.

但我认为，重塑自我、走不同道路、在线工作、灵活工作的可能性，比 25 年前更有可能。

It's also going to continue to be more possible.

这也将继续变得更加可能。

All the tools and technology to enable these kinds of lives are just getting better and easier.

所有使这些生活成为可能的工具和技术都在变得更好、更轻松。

And especially this week, ChatGPT just released their new GPT.

尤其是本周，ChatGPT 刚刚发布了他们的新 GPT。

I was playing with that today and I'm like, "Oh my gosh."

我今天玩这个的时候我就想，“天啊。”

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Wix Studio.

Lenny：本集由 Wix Studio 为您带来。

Your agency has just landed a dream client, and you already have big ideas for the website, but do you have the tools to bring your ambitious vision to life?

您的代理机构刚刚找到了一位梦想客户，并且您已经对网站有了很大的想法，但是您是否拥有将您雄心勃勃的愿景变为现实的工具？

Let me tell you about Wix Studio, the new platform that lets agencies deliver exceptional client sites with maximum efficiency.

让我向您介绍一下 Wix Studio，这个新平台可以让代理机构以最高效率交付卓越的客户网站。

How?

如何？

Lenny: First, let's talk about advanced design capabilities.

Lenny：首先我们来谈谈先进的设计能力。

With Wix Studio, you can build unique layouts with a revolutionary grid experience, and watches elements scale proportionally by default.

借助 Wix Studio，您可以通过革命性的网格体验构建独特的布局，并在默认情况下观察元素按比例缩放。

No-code animations at sparks of delight, while adding custom CSS gives total design control.

无代码动画带来愉悦的火花，同时添加自定义 CSS 提供全面的设计控制。

Bring ambitious client projects to life with any industry, with a fully integrated suite of business solutions.

借助完全集成的业务解决方案套件，将雄心勃勃的客户项目带入任何行业。

From e-commerce to events, bookings, and more.

从电子商务到活动、预订等。

And extend the capabilities even further with hundreds of APIs and integrations.

并通过数百个 API 和集成进一步扩展功能。

Lenny: You know what else?

莱尼：你知道还有什么吗？

The workflows just make sense.

工作流程才有意义。

There's the built-in AI tools, the on canvas collaborating, a centralized workspace, the reuse of assets across sites, the seamless client handover, and that's not all.

还有内置的人工智能工具、画布上的协作、集中的工作空间、跨站点的资产重用、无缝的客户端移交，而这还不是全部。

Find out more at wix.com/studio.

如需了解更多信息，请访问 wix.com/studio。

Lenny: I think when people might hear some of these professions like, "Maybe I'll become a therapist, maybe I'll become an online writer person.

莱尼：我认为当人们听到其中一些职业时，比如，“也许我会成为一名治疗师，也许我会成为一名在线作家。

Maybe I'll start a business." It may feel like that assumes you'll make less money doing these things.

也许我会创业。”感觉好像是假设你做这些事情赚的钱会更少。

But in my case, and I'm curious if it's in your case, I make significantly more doing what I do now.

但就我而言，我很好奇是否也有你的情况，我现在做的事情赚的钱要多得多。

I try not to talk about the income of this stuff, but it's significantly more than I made at Airbnb as a very senior product leader.

我尽量不谈论这些东西的收入，但这比我在 Airbnb 作为一名高级产品负责人的收入要高得多。

And I feel like that often happens.

而且我觉得这种事经常发生。

You discover a way to do something you love and also make a lot more money.

你发现了一种做你喜欢的事情的方法，同时还能赚更多的钱。

Paul Millerd: I think it's easier to make money in a sustainable, long-term way doing stuff you actually like doing.

Paul Millerd：我认为以可持续、长期的方式做你真正喜欢做的事情更容易赚钱。

That sounds so simple, but it actually would've been really hard for me to stay on my previous path.

这听起来很简单，但实际上对我来说要坚持以前的道路真的很难。

Paul Millerd: Now, in my case, it was not until my fifth year that I came close to the salary I left.

保罗·米勒德：现在，就我而言，直到第五年我才接近剩下的薪水。

For the first three years, I really optimized for exploration, creativity, just getting to know myself again.

在最初的三年里，我真正优化了探索、创造力，只是再次了解自己。

I made 50 grand the first year, because I was freelancing.

第一年我赚了 50 英镑，因为我是自由职业者。

Then I made 30 grand, 24 grand, and then 30 grand.

然后我做了30盛大，24盛大，然后是30盛大。

So I was really optimizing for getting to know myself.

所以我真的在优化了解自己。

I dramatically lowered my cost of living, and that is one path.

我大幅降低了生活成本，这是一条路。

Paul Millerd: But this year, I'll make more than I ever made.

保罗·米勒德：但是今年，我赚的钱比以往任何时候都多。

And that is mind-blowing to me, because every single day of this year has been absolutely delightful.

这对我来说是令人兴奋的，因为今年的每一天都绝对令人愉快。

I've spent abundant time with my wife and my daughter.

我和我的妻子和女儿度过了很多时间。

And it's so crazy.

这太疯狂了。

Paul Millerd: Now, if I had stayed in my previous path, I'd be making a lot more than I make now.

保罗·米勒德：现在，如果我坚持以前的道路，我赚的钱会比现在多得多。

But that path was not viable for me for becoming...

但这条路对我来说并不可行，因为我无法成为......

I'd be so frustrated right now if I had to go back to work.

如果我现在必须回去工作，我会感到非常沮丧。

An eight-month-old, I know you have a four-month-old.

一个八个月大的孩子，我知道你有一个四个月大的孩子。

Wait till eight months old.

等到八个月大了。

They're so fun to hang out with.

和他们一起出去玩很有趣。

Lenny: I can't wait.

莱尼：我等不及了。

You talked about this lower spend, lower expense life.

你谈到了这种低支出、低开支的生活。

What other tips and tricks do you have for people to create this space where they can continue living and paying the rent, while exploring, and wandering, and exploring these things?

你还有什么其他的技巧和技巧可以让人们创造这个空间，让他们可以继续生活并支付租金，同时探索、徘徊和探索这些东西？

Is it cut down on expenses?

是不是削减了开支？

Is there anything else that one can do?

还有什么可以做的吗？

Paul Millerd: I've talked to so many people at this point.

Paul Millerd：目前我已经和很多人谈过了。

I've seen all sorts of things.

我见过各种各样的事情。

I've seen people move abroad.

我见过有人移居国外。

I've seen families with kids and a mortgage sell their house and decide to live in an RV.

我见过有孩子和抵押贷款的家庭卖掉他们的房子并决定住在房车里。

I've seen people dip into their retirement.

我见过人们步入退休生活。

I've seen people apply for grants and get those.

我见过有人申请补助金并获得这些补助金。

I've seen people apply for loans.

我见过有人申请贷款。

Paul Millerd: A big move that a lot of people do is turn their current job into a contract job, which a lot of employers are a lot more open than people would think.

Paul Millerd：很多人所做的一个重大举措是将他们当前的工作转变为合同工作，很多雇主比人们想象的要开放得多。

Because a contractor's very easy to fire.

因为承包商很容易被解雇。

You can fire a contractor in a day.

您可以在一天内解雇承包商。

So if the company's struggling, boom, you're gone, right?

所以，如果公司陷入困境，繁荣，你就走了，对吧？

Paul Millerd: And so there is more risk, but if you're known in the company, it can actually be a somewhat stable path to create more space in your life.

保罗·米勒德：所以风险更大，但如果你在公司里很出名，这实际上是一条稳定的道路，可以在你的生活中创造更多空间。

You say, "Hey, I want to work three days a week.

你说：“嘿，我想每周工作三天。

I want to be a contractor.

我想成为一名承包商。

Here's exactly what I want to do.

这正是我想做的。

Are you open to this?"

你对此持开放态度吗？”

Paul Millerd: And as soon as you're a contractor, they can't tell you where to work.

Paul Millerd：一旦你成为承包商，他们就无法告诉你在哪里工作。

You can develop a relationship and they can ask you to work in a certain place, but they don't have control over where you work.

您可以建立关系，他们可以要求您在某个地方工作，但他们无法控制您的工作地点。

Lenny: A trick that I found really useful actually for helping me feel comfortable about taking time off, I ended up taking six months off, and then it ended up being a year off because I kept trying to figure out what is the thing I wanted to do.

莱尼：我发现这个技巧非常有用，实际上可以帮助我在休息时感到舒服，我最终休息了六个月，然后又休息了一年，因为我一直试图弄清楚我想做的事情是什么。

The way that I felt good about that is I set a budget of, "Here's the runway that I'm going to give myself.

我对此感觉良好的方式是我设定了一个预算，“这是我要给自己设计的跑道。

Here's how much it's going to cost to do this for six months.

以下是六个月内执行此操作所需的费用。

Here's the runway I'm going to give myself.

这是我要给自己的跑道。

I'm just going to burn through this money, just with the bet that it'll lead to something interesting." And that made me and my wife also just feel like, okay, we were going to lose all that money probably, but the bet is it's going to lead to something really great.

我只是想花掉这笔钱，只是赌它会带来一些有趣的东西。”这让我和我的妻子也觉得，好吧，我们可能会失去所有的钱，但打赌这会带来一些真正伟大的事情。

Paul Millerd: Yeah, I love this.

保罗·米勒德：是的，我喜欢这个。

I think this is something I've been thinking about a lot lately, and I've actually been trying to write something around this, which is that naming what you're spending money on or coming up with agreements like that, you're sort of saying, "This is money I'm investing in my life MBA." Because if somebody says, "I'm going to Stanford Business School," generally you'll receive positive praise.

我想这是我最近一直在思考的事情，实际上我一直在尝试围绕这个问题写一些东西，那就是说出你花钱的地方或达成这样的协议，你有点在说，“这是我在我的 MBA 生活中投资的钱。”因为如果有人说“我要去斯坦福商学院”，通常你会得到积极的赞扬。

"Oh, that's awesome." But what they're really doing is not working for two years and spending 150 to $200,000, and not earning a salary.

“哦，那太棒了。”但他们真正做的并不是工作两年，花费 150 到 20 万美元，而且没有工资。

Paul Millerd: And then to me, it was really interesting to look back at my path.

保罗·米勒德：对我来说，回顾我的道路真的很有趣。

Now, the first three years of my path, I broke even.

现在，在我创业的头三年里，我实现了收支平衡。

But compared to being in business school, people thought business school was way better of a path for me.

但与在商学院相比，人们认为商学院对我来说是一条更好的道路。

People were judgmental in my path, critical of my path, insulted me, projected their insecurities on me.

人们对我的道路进行评判，批评我的道路，侮辱我，将他们的不安全感投射到我身上。

"How could you do this?

“你怎么能这么做？

This is so crazy.

这太疯狂了。

What's your plan?" So coming up with these reframes is super powerful.

你有什么计划？”因此，提出这些重构是非常强大的。

Paul Millerd: One powerful one that worked for me was consider it a gift from your former self.

保罗·米勒德（Paul Millerd）：对我来说，一个最有效的方法就是将其视为来自以前的自己的礼物。

So on the consulting path, I did like it for a while, but at the end I didn't like it.

所以在咨询这条路上，我确实有一段时间喜欢它，但最后我不喜欢它。

I was sort of just grinding through, going through the motions.

我只是在磨磨蹭蹭，走走过场。

I was good at it, but I really didn't want to be doing it if I had choice.

我很擅长，但如果可以选择的话，我真的不想这样做。

And so I earned a decent income doing it.

因此我通过这样做获得了可观的收入。

So would I gift that to my future self to be happier?

那么我会把它送给未来的自己，让自己更快乐吗？

Yeah.

是的。

So now that I'm in the present, receive that gift and be like, "Thank you former self for working that job."

所以现在我就在当下，接受这份礼物，然后说：“谢谢你以前的自己所做的这份工作。”

Lenny: It's interesting.

莱尼：这很有趣。

I could also flip it from the other way of your future self is returning to, "Hey, here's some money to spend to help become who I've become."

我也可以把它从你未来的自己回归的另一种方式翻转过来，“嘿，这里有一些钱可以花来帮助我成为现在的样子。”

Lenny: So I imagine not everyone ends up on a beautiful, amazing new life.

莱尼：所以我想并不是每个人最终都会过上美丽、令人惊奇的新生活。

They go down this route, they spend a bunch of money, and then they're like, "God damn, I don't have anything to show for it.

他们沿着这条路走下去，花了很多钱，然后他们就会说，“该死的，我没有任何东西可以展示。

I've spent all this cash." Imagine there are stories of that.

这些钱我都花完了。”想象一下有这样的故事。

Is there anything you could share around those stories and how to maybe either avoid them or be okay with them?

关于这些故事，您有什么可以分享的吗？以及如何避免它们或接受它们？

Paul Millerd: I think there are surprisingly few stories of that.

保罗·米勒德：我认为这方面的故事少之又少。

I think that is people's fear of what might happen.

我认为这是人们对可能发生的事情的恐惧。

What I've seen in reality, as soon as people are without an income or without a job, they spur into action.

我在现实中看到，一旦人们没有收入或没有工作，他们就会立即采取行动。

People, we're far more creative than we give ourselves credit for.

人们，我们比我们想象的更有创造力。

Having a child, we have no idea what we're doing when they come out.

有了孩子，当他们出来时，我们不知道自己在做什么。

Paul Millerd: But it makes perfect sense that you're going to figure everything out, because you have to.

保罗·米勒德：但是你要弄清楚一切是完全有道理的，因为你必须这样做。

You have no choice.

你别无选择。

And so the ingenuity and creativity of people as soon as they bet on themselves and go off into the wilderness, is far more than people expect.

所以当人们把赌注押在自己身上，走进荒野时，他们的聪明才智和创造力远远超出了人们的预期。

Paul Millerd: And it also has to do with regrets.

保罗·米勒德：这也与遗憾有关。

People do not regret the things they do.

人们不会后悔他们所做的事情。

They regret the things they didn't do.

他们对自己没有做的事情感到后悔。

And the reason for this is if you've made a mistake, you can actually take action to correct it.

这样做的原因是，如果你犯了错误，你实际上可以采取行动来纠正它。

But if you didn't do the thing that you're regretting, there's nothing you can do except do the thing.

但如果你没有做让你后悔的事情，那么你除了做那件事之外什么也做不了。

Lenny: And it reminds me of a quote that you have in your book that I have here.

莱尼：这让我想起你在我这里的书中引用的一句话。

The secret to doing good research, and I think it's related to this of finding a new path, a pathless path, is always to be a little underemployed.

做好研究的秘诀，我认为这与寻找一条新的道路、一条无路可走的道路有关，总是有点不充分就业。

You waste years by not being able to waste hours.

你因为无法浪费时间而浪费了数年时间。

Paul Millerd: Yeah.

保罗·米勒德：是的。

And I wonder if you've found this too.

我想知道你是否也发现了这个。

Sometimes, the best way for me to write is to go for a walk, or to take a couple days off and just sort of reset.

有时，对我来说最好的写作方式就是去散步，或者休息几天，重新调整一下。

Creative work can't be forced a lot of time.

创造性工作不能强迫很多时间。

Paul Millerd: And increasingly, a lot of work is creative work.

Paul Millerd：越来越多的工作都是创造性的工作。

Your work at Airbnb was ultimately creative work.

你在 Airbnb 的工作归根结底是创造性的工作。

You're creating new products and offerings, in a whole new conception of an industry.

您正在以全新的行业概念创造新产品和产品。

You're making stuff up.

你在胡编乱造。

A lot of times, I think people get fried in these companies because they're not actually given the schedules and the support systems around what actually enables creativity.

很多时候，我认为人们在这些公司中感到沮丧，因为他们实际上没有得到围绕真正激发创造力的时间表和支持系统。

Lenny: Yeah, absolutely.

莱尼：是的，绝对是。

Although I find with writing also, there's the benefit of the opposite of, "I'm just going to sit here and write, and I'm not going to give myself a chance to go walk around.

虽然我也发现写作也有相反的好处，“我只是坐在这里写作，我不会给自己机会四处走动。

I'm just going to keep writing, even if it's terrible, because it'll maybe lead to something."

我会继续写作，即使它很糟糕，因为它可能会带来一些结果。”

Paul Millerd: Yeah.

保罗·米勒德：是的。

And even that though, a lot of times, what ends up on the page surprises you.

尽管如此，很多时候页面上的内容还是让你感到惊讶。

Right?

正确的？

So you do need a certain sense of openness to let that emerge.

所以你确实需要一定的开放感才能让这一点显现出来。

Lenny: So kind of along the same lines, another important concept that you talk about in your book for finding this pathless path is just this idea that it's not ever like this all or nothing.

莱尼：同样的道理，你在书中谈到的关于寻找这条无路可走的道路的另一个重要概念就是这样的想法，即它永远不会像这样全有或全无。

I'm just going to leap into this new thing.

我正要跳入这个新事物。

It's kind of this, the way you put it is people quit jobs after years of awakening and safely testing changes, kind of eliminating risks along the way.

是这样的，用你的话说，人们在经过多年的觉醒和安全地测试变化后辞职，从而消除了一路上的风险。

Paul Millerd: So years before I left, and I'm curious if you had a similar experience, I was starting to read personal development books.

保罗·米勒德：在我离开的几年前，我很好奇你是否有类似的经历，我开始阅读个人发展书籍。

I was reading Tim Ferriss.

我正在读蒂姆·费里斯。

I was doing these small experiments like coaching on the side, helping people with their resumes, volunteering, helping people with careers.

我正在做这些小实验，比如兼职辅导、帮助人们填写简历、志愿服务、帮助人们事业发展。

Paul Millerd: And so I was writing too.

保罗·米勒德：所以我也在写作。

I was writing for fun on Quora with no goals.

我在 Quora 上写作只是为了好玩，没有任何目标。

And all these things make perfect sense now.

现在所有这些事情都变得非常有意义。

And even looking back further, I was always tinkering on the internet, and all these things fit my story perfectly now.

甚至进一步回想起来，我总是在互联网上修修补补，而所有这些事情现在都非常适合我的故事。

Paul Millerd: But I didn't know why I was doing them at the time.

保罗·米勒德：但我当时并不知道为什么要这么做。

But each one gave me the confidence to be like, "Okay, I don't love my day job, but all these random things I'm doing on the side, like writing an article and posting it on Medium and LinkedIn, and the people I'm meeting, this is really interesting and energizing.

但每个人都给了我信心，“好吧，我不喜欢我的日常工作，但是我在业余时间做的所有这些随机的事情，比如写一篇文章并将其发布在 Medium 和 LinkedIn 上，以及我遇到的人，这真的很有趣并且充满活力。

I'm going to pay attention to that energy.

我会关注这种能量。

Something is there."

有东西在那里。”

Paul Millerd: And when I quit my job, I didn't really have a plan for how to deal with that, but I had experienced enough of this positive energy.

保罗·米勒德：当我辞掉工作时，我并没有真正制定如何处理这个问题的计划，但我已经体验到了足够的积极能量。

I was like, "I want to chase that.

我当时想，“我想追逐它。

I want to go after that."

我想去那之后。”

Lenny: That's exactly what I found.

莱尼：这正是我发现的。

So I'll tell my story briefly on this.

所以我将简要讲述我的故事。

Some advice I got when I went on my sabbatical that ended up being incredibly powerful is essentially what you just said, which is when you're doing stuff during some period of time off, pay really close attention to what gives you energy after you do the thing.

我在休假时得到的一些建议最终非常有效，这些建议基本上就是你刚才所说的，那就是当你在休息的一段时间内做某事时，要密切关注做完这件事后是什么给你能量。

Say you have a call.

说你有电话。

Did that give you energy or did that sap you of energy?

这给了你能量还是耗尽了你的能量？

Do you feel more energized or you feel like, "I'm tired now"?

您是否感觉更有活力，还是感觉“我现在累了”？

Lenny: So it's like after calls you make, after things you do with friends, after some kind of hobby you're trying to do, after you write some stuff, just pay really close attention to what energizes you, what saps you energy.

莱尼：所以这就像在你打完电话之后，在你和朋友一起做事之后，在你想做的某种爱好之后，在你写了一些东西之后，只要密切关注什么让你充满活力，什么消耗你的能量。

And then my whole strategy was just do more of the things that energize me and do less of the things that de-energize me.

然后我的整个策略就是多做一些让我充满活力的事情，少做一些让我失去活力的事情。

Lenny: So in my case, I thought I'd want to do some advising or consulting.

莱尼：所以就我而言，我想我想做一些建议或咨询。

I found after every advising call, I was de-energized.

我发现每次咨询电话后，我都失去了活力。

I was just like, "No, I do not enjoy this as much as I thought." But after writing and putting a piece out, I was like, "Wow, this is really cool." Even though writing's very hard and there's a lot of de-energized moments, broadly it's like, "Wow, this is cool.

我只是想，“不，我并不像我想象的那么喜欢这个。”但在写完并发表一篇文章后，我想，“哇，这真的很酷。”尽管写作非常困难，而且有很多没有活力的时刻，但总的来说，就像是，“哇，这太酷了。

People seem to really value this." So I started doing that more.

人们似乎真的很重视这一点。”所以我开始做更多的事情。

I thought I wanted to start a company, but that kept sucking me of energy as I was working on ideas.

我以为我想创办一家公司，但这在我思考想法时不断耗尽我的精力。

So that alone was really, really powerful.

所以仅此一点就非常非常强大。

And it sounds like really simple advice, but it's really .

这听起来像是非常简单的建议，但确实如此。

Paul Millerd: It's hard too.

保罗·米勒德：这也很难。

I think the pull to create a company when you leave a big tech company is so powerful.

我认为，当你离开一家大型科技公司时，创建一家公司的吸引力是如此强大。

And what you're saying is sort of crazy.

你所说的有点疯狂。

You're saying, "I just feel good writing.

你会说：“我只是感觉写得很好。

I'm going to follow that."

我会遵循这一点。”

Lenny: It's not a popular path amongst my friends and family.

莱尼：这在我的朋友和家人中并不受欢迎。

Paul Millerd: And I think the root of that is you're triggering insecurities in them.

保罗·米勒德：我认为根源在于你引发了他们的不安全感。

You're doing something they weren't allowed to do at your age.

你正在做一些他们在你这个年纪不被允许做的事情。

Lenny: The thing I found really helpful there, another friend gave me this advice, just tell people you're tinkering.

莱尼：我发现这确实很有帮助，另一位朋友给了我这个建议，只要告诉人们你正在修修补补。

When they ask you, "What are you working on?" "I'm just tinkering.

当他们问你：“你在做什么？” “我只是在修修补补。

I'm tinkering with some writing." Because something about that word makes it sound like, "Okay, cool, it's delightful and cool.

我正在修改一些写作内容。”因为这个词听起来就像是，“好吧，酷，这令人愉快又酷。

Tinker wave."

修补匠波。”

Paul Millerd: I feel like that did not work with my parents.

保罗·米勒德：我觉得这对我的父母不起作用。

But yeah, trying different things.

但是，是的，尝试不同的事情。

I always tell people you need a boomer compatible story for what you're up to, as just give them something.

我总是告诉人们，你需要一个与婴儿潮一代兼容的故事来描述你的所作所为，就像给他们一些东西一样。

Just say, "I'm an entrepreneur," or, "I'm a business owner."

只需说“我是一名企业家”或“我是一名企业主”。

Lenny: That totally resonates.

莱尼：这完全引起共鸣。

I'd be excited about that if I was a boomer.

如果我是婴儿潮一代，我会对此感到兴奋。

In the book, you also talk about taming fears.

在书中，您还谈到了克服恐惧。

So we talked about a few of these things, and just the power of taming some of these fears that you have.

所以我们讨论了其中的一些事情，以及驯服你所拥有的一些恐惧的力量。

There's success, the fear of not being successful, of money, of belonging, of loneliness, and of health.

有成功、对不成功、金钱、归属感、孤独和健康的恐惧。

Can you just talk about either all of those or any of those, just why it's important to tame those fears, and then how one goes about taming these fears?

您能否谈谈所有这些或其中任何一个，为什么驯服这些恐惧很重要，以及如何驯服这些恐惧？

Paul Millerd: Yeah.

保罗·米勒德：是的。

So a big source of inspiration around this is Tim Ferriss' fear setting, and he basically forces you to write down what are your fears, how could you mitigate these.

因此，围绕这一点的一大灵感来源是蒂姆·费里斯的恐惧设定，他基本上强迫你写下你的恐惧是什么，你如何减轻这些恐惧。

But more powerfully, the second part is...

但更强大的是，第二部分是......

And you're framing them around action.

你将它们围绕行动来构建。

And so he reframes, what is the cost of inaction?

于是他重新思考，不作为的代价是什么？

And that was really powerful for me, and it sort of exposed a lot of the costs in the current state of what I was doing.

这对我来说真的很强大，它暴露了我目前所做的事情的很多成本。

Paul Millerd: And so actually, I want to thank you.

保罗·米勒德：实际上，我想感谢你。

It's funny, you messaged me as I was listening to a podcast you were on.

有趣的是，当我正在听你正在收听的播客时，你给我发了消息。

I think it was the one with David Perell.

我认为是与大卫·佩雷尔（David Perell）合作的。

Paul Millerd: But I was listening to your podcast and you were talking about hiring a community manager.

保罗·米勒德：但我在听你的播客，你在谈论雇用一名社区经理。

And this is actually something I've done in the past few weeks.

这实际上是我过去几周所做的事情。

And I think I was scared to commit to the community because I didn't want to create a job for myself.

我想我害怕对社区做出贡献，因为我不想为自己创造工作。

Paul Millerd: And one thing I've realized is that I'm scared of creating a job for myself, but I sort of reframed the cost of inaction.

保罗·米勒德：我意识到的一件事是，我害怕为自己创造一份工作，但我重新定义了不作为的成本。

What's the cost of inaction is if I don't actually hire someone, I'm going to drain all my creative energy, and that's an existential risk to this path.

不作为的代价是，如果我不真正雇用某人，我就会耗尽我所有的创造力，这是这条道路的生存风险。

And so that's one example of I'm always thinking about these things, and that enabled me to take very quick action on that.

这就是我一直在思考这些事情的一个例子，这使我能够对此采取非常迅速的行动。

Paul Millerd: But I think it was helpful to hear from you.

保罗·米勒德：但我认为收到你的来信很有帮助。

You were like, "I'm not a community manager." And this is a big aha for me, because I launched my community at the beginning of this year.

你会说，“我不是社区经理。”这对我来说是一个很大的惊喜，因为我在今年年初推出了我的社区。

I suck at community management.

我不擅长社区管理。

I'm not good at it, but I found somebody that actually was good at it and I was like, "There are people that like this and are good at it." So that's one thing.

我不擅长，但我找到了一个真正擅长的人，我就想，“有人喜欢这个并且擅长它。”所以这是一回事。

I think more broadly though is some fears don't disappear.

但我认为更广泛的是，一些恐惧并没有消失。

So that's a very specific project-based fear.

所以这是一种非常具体的基于项目的恐惧。

Paul Millerd: Existential fears around health, death, importance, money, they don't really go away.

保罗·米勒德：围绕健康、死亡、重要性、金钱的存在恐惧，它们并没有真正消失。

I think the great thing about this path for me is that you can't pretend like they don't exist.

我认为这条道路对我来说最棒的一点是你不能假装它们不存在。

They sort of just punch you in the face.

他们只是打你的脸。

You'll wake up one day and you'll have an existential breakdown of, "What the heck am I doing?

有一天你醒来时，你会感到存在主义崩溃，“我到底在做什么？

Is this sustainable?

这是可持续的吗？

This is so silly.

这太愚蠢了。

Am I going to run out of money?

我的钱会用完吗？

Next year, are my book sales going to tank?" And so the longer I've been on this path, those big worries turn into these small little daily things that pop up.

明年，我的图书销量会下降吗？”因此，我在这条路上走的时间越长，那些大的担忧就会变成这些突然出现的日常小事。

And I'll sort of have a conversation with my fear and I'll say, "We're worrying about money today.

我会与我的恐惧进行一次对话，我会说：“我们今天担心钱的问题。

Okay, I see you.

好吧，我看到你了。

Yeah, that's real.

是的，那是真的。

Yeah, I don't know if we can solve that, but yeah, six and a half years, let's keep going.

是的，我不知道我们是否能解决这个问题，但是是的，六年半，让我们继续前进。

Let's see if it works."

让我们看看它是否有效。”

Paul Millerd: Yeah, that's the thing that makes me feel better every time something like that comes up is, it's worked this long.

保罗·米勒德：是的，每当类似的事情出现时，这就是让我感觉更好的事情，它已经工作了这么长时间了。

It's probably going to work for a lot longer.

它可能会工作更长时间。

There's this concept of , of the time something is going to last is usually as long as it's already lasted.

有这样一个概念，某件事将持续的时间通常是只要它已经持续了。

And so that always makes me feel better.

所以这总是让我感觉更好。

The main thing I think about, is am I going to run out of stuff with a newsletter to write about?

我考虑的主要问题是，我是否会用完时事通讯的内容来写？

And it's been four years now.

现在已经四年了。

I'm like, "Nah, it's probably going to keep going for at least four more years."

我想，“不，它可能会持续至少四年。”

Paul Millerd: It's very important to dance with your fears and really get in with them.

保罗·米勒德：与恐惧共舞并真正融入其中非常重要。

If I'm afraid of not making money, it's very reasonable that book sales will fall.

如果怕赚不到钱，图书销量下降也是很合理的。

And so I don't know if we can sustain our lifestyle on what I have set up two, three years down the road.

所以我不知道我们是否能在两三年后维持我所设定的生活方式。

But taking that fear and saying, "Okay, I'm going to solve that and make that fear go away by getting a job," is off the table.

但带着这种恐惧并说：“好吧，我要解决这个问题，并通过找一份工作来消除这种恐惧”，这是不可能的。

So I have no choice but to actually just be like, "Yeah, that fear's going to be here.

所以我别无选择，只能说：“是的，恐惧就会出现。

It's going to be part of my life, and we're going to have to just deal with it."

这将成为我生活的一部分，我们必须面对它。”

Lenny: Along those lines, is there a path you took that was a big failure or didn't work out, something that you thought was going to be a big opportunity and wasn't?

莱尼：沿着这些思路，你是否有一条道路是一次巨大的失败或没有成功，你认为这将是一个巨大的机会，但事实并非如此？

Paul Millerd: The first 10 years of my career, I just kept jumping from job to job.

Paul Millerd：在我职业生涯的前十年，我不断地从一个工作跳到另一个工作。

I think I was looking for my current path in job shaped containers and I couldn't find it.

我想我正在工作形状的容器中寻找我当前的路径，但我找不到它。

And I was just so desperate to find a really good situation.

我非常渴望找到一个真正好的位置。

Paul Millerd: And there were all sorts of circumstances, like bosses who hired me, kept quitting immediately after I would join.

保罗·米勒德：有各种各样的情况，比如雇用我的老板在我加入后立即辞职。

Layoffs, all sorts of random things that happened that were very weird.

裁员，各种随机发生的事情都很奇怪。

And I just sort of kept searching.

我只是继续寻找。

Lenny: So I've been comfortable with trying things, and starting new things, and experimenting for a long time.

莱尼：所以我很乐意尝试新事物，开始新事物，并进行很长一段时间的实验。

And so one frame I have, I call it ship, quit, and learn, which is what is the quickest way I can ship something designed to quit, but as soon as I ship it, I learn about what to do next?

所以我有一个框架，我称之为发布、退出和学习，这是我发布旨在退出的东西的最快方式，但是一旦我发布它，我就知道下一步该做什么？

Paul Millerd: And so this is how I started my podcast.

Paul Millerd：这就是我开始播客的方式。

I just said, "I'm going to do five episodes." I stole this from Tim Ferriss as well.

我只是说，“我要拍五集。”我也从蒂姆·费里斯那里偷了这个。

I'm going to do five episodes.

我要拍五集。

I'm going to see how it feels.

我要去看看感觉如何。

And this is one of these things, super energizing.

这就是其中之一，超级充满活力。

I love how I feel after podcast conversations.

我喜欢播客对话后的感觉。

I'm going to keep doing it.

我会继续这样做。

I wasn't aiming at success, but it was like, "I know I can keep doing the podcast and my newsletter." I had that experience, that feeling from it, but there are things I've tried that I'm like, "Yeah, not again." A couple consulting and advisory type things early on in my path, it was like, "Whoa, I need to build in protectors such that I don't take a gig like this again."

我的目标不是成功，但就像是，“我知道我可以继续做播客和我的时事通讯。”我有过那种经历，那种感觉，但我尝试过一些事情，我想，“是的，不会再有一次了。”在我的职业生涯早期，有一些咨询和咨询类型的事情，就像是，“哇，我需要建立保护者，这样我就不会再接受这样的工作了。”

Lenny: I connect to something you said earlier, which I super resonate with, which is you want to avoid creating jobs for yourself that you don't enjoy with this path.

莱尼：我同意你之前所说的，我对此非常有共鸣，那就是你想避免为自己创造你不喜欢这条道路的工作。

There's so many things you could be doing and so many pulls that often, for me, it's like writing a book is always this thing that's out there.

你可以做的事情太多了，有太多的吸引力，对我来说，写一本书总是这样。

Actually, starting a podcast with one of these for a long time, "I don't want to start a podcast.

事实上，在很长一段时间里用其中一个开始播客，“我不想开始播客。

Life is good.

生活是美好的。

I got this awesome newsletter.

我收到了这份很棒的时事通讯。

Things are going great.

事情进展顺利。

Why would I want more work?"

为什么我想要更多的工作？”

Lenny: Eventually I crumbled, and I did it, and here we are, and I'm happy I did.

莱尼：最终我崩溃了，我做到了，现在我们到了，我很高兴我做到了。

But there's all these other things that are always like, "I should do these things." But I think it's really important to pay attention to what do you not enjoy and don't do that.

但还有所有其他事情总是像“我应该做这些事情”。但我认为关注你不喜欢什么并且不要这样做是非常重要的。

It's easy to create bad jobs for yourself.

为自己创造糟糕的工作很容易。

Lenny: A really clear example of that is finding a niche that you don't enjoy, spending time on in this life of writing about something you don't actually care about, or podcasting about something you don't care about.

莱尼：一个非常明显的例子就是找到一个你不喜欢的利基市场，在这一生中花时间写一些你实际上并不关心的事情，或者播客一些你不关心的事情。

You just created a job for yourself you hate.

你刚刚为自己创造了一份你讨厌的工作。

Why would you do that?

你为什么要这么做？

And so it comes back to paying attention to what gives you energy.

因此，回到关注给你能量的东西上来。

Paul Millerd: So I've created a lot of slack in my life.

保罗·米勒德：所以我在生活中创造了很多空闲时间。

So I'd say 95% of my days, I cannot work.

所以我想说我95%的时间都无法工作。

So I don't do meetings.

所以我不开会。

I don't really have employees or anything like that.

我真的没有员工或类似的东西。

I have contractors, but I hire contractors for very specific roles.

我有承包商，但我雇用承包商担任非常特定的角色。

And I create systems such that we can do it asynchronously.

我创建了可以异步完成的系统。

And of course, I'll have conversations with them if they want to jump on a call.

当然，如果他们想接听电话，我会与他们交谈。

But I optimize for people that want asynchronous and work on those specific things.

但我针对那些想要异步并处理这些特定事情的人进行了优化。

So I'm just very conscious of that.

所以我非常清楚这一点。

Paul Millerd: I think one challenge I have now is I've created so many things that I'm doing a few things really well, and then sort of ignoring a lot of them.

保罗·米勒德：我认为我现在面临的一个挑战是我创造了很多东西，其中一些事情我做得非常好，然后忽略了其中的很多事情。

So I actually feel like I'm in this evolution right now of trying to figure out what comes next.

所以我实际上觉得我现在正处于这个进化过程中，试图弄清楚接下来会发生什么。

Paul Millerd: So we haven't even talked about this, but I started this business strategy early on in my path because I wanted to productize my consulting.

Paul Millerd：所以我们甚至还没有讨论过这个，但我在我的道路上很早就开始了这个业务战略，因为我想将我的咨询产品化。

And one of the consulting projects I loved early on was training people on consulting skills.

我早期喜欢的咨询项目之一是培训人们的咨询技能。

I did a training program for a consulting firm in Boston, and I was like, "Ooh, I could turn this into an online course." And that has slowly built and evolved, and I do workshops now with companies.

我为波士顿的一家咨询公司做了一个培训项目，我当时想，“哦，我可以把它变成一个在线课程。”这是慢慢建立和发展的，我现在和公司一起举办研讨会。

And that made most of my money from years two to five when I started moving away from project-based consulting.

当我开始放弃基于项目的咨询时，这让我在第二年到第五年赚了大部分钱。

Paul Millerd: And so the game I was playing was make money from that, don't focus on it too much, spend minimal time, don't try to maximize for success.

保罗·米勒德：所以我玩的游戏是从中赚钱，不要太关注它，花最少的时间，不要试图最大化成功。

Create a self-paced course, because I am not interested in making more money in a cohort-based course, because I just don't want to spend the time.

创建自定进度的课程，因为我对在基于队列的课程中赚更多钱不感兴趣，因为我只是不想花时间。

And then use all the abundant time to write and explore, create podcasts, spend time with my wife, and do all the non-work experiments, see how I feel and write about it.

然后利用所有充裕的时间来写作和探索，创建播客，花时间和我的妻子在一起，做所有非工作的实验，看看我的感受并写下来。

Paul Millerd: Now I'm making money from the work I love, which is very weird.

保罗·米勒德：现在我通过我喜欢的工作赚钱，这很奇怪。

I'm going to make, I'll hit soon about $200,000 made for my book, which is mind-blowing.

我很快就会为我的书赚到大约 20 万美元，这真是令人兴奋。

I published a book completely on my terms about what I love and loved the process of it.

我完全按照自己的方式出版了一本关于我所热爱的事物和热爱它的过程的书。

It's so crazy.

太疯狂了。

Paul Millerd: And so now I'm building a community around that.

Paul Millerd：所以现在我正在围绕它建立一个社区。

That's really fun.

这真的很有趣。

I'm doing the podcast.

我正在做播客。

I have some sponsors around that.

我有一些赞助商。

And so that's sort of taking over.

所以这有点接管了。

I still have this StrategyU though.

不过我仍然有这个StrategyU。

Paul Millerd: So now I'm trying to figure out how to unwind some of these things.

保罗·米勒德：所以现在我正在尝试找出如何解决其中一些问题。

I'm actually exploring trying to find somebody that might want to start their own pathless path, like a strategy consultant that wants to leave that world, that wants to be an operator on this business.

实际上，我正在探索寻找可能想要开始自己的无路之路的人，例如想要离开那个世界的战略顾问，想要成为这项业务的运营商。

So if you're listening, I've recently come to terms with this might be the path forward.

所以如果你在听的话，我最近意识到这可能是前进的道路。

Paul Millerd: But yeah, it's a constant journey of protecting your time, creating that space, going down projects you want to execute, but then stepping back and like, "Okay, I have all this maintenance I'm doing.

保罗·米勒德：但是，是的，这是一个持续不断的旅程，保护你的时间，创造空间，完成你想要执行的项目，然后退后一步，就像，“好吧，我正在做所有这些维护工作。

How do I outsource this, eliminate it, restart, recreate?" And I think this path is really just a commitment to constant reinvention, which is really, really hard.

我如何将其外包、消除、重新启动、重新创建？”我认为这条道路实际上只是对不断革新的承诺，这真的非常非常困难。

And you shouldn't do it unless you get some satisfaction out of personal reflection and that journey.

除非你从个人反思和这段旅程中获得一些满足，否则你不应该这样做。

Lenny: For someone that may want to help you with that program, what's the best way to reach out to you if they're just like, "Oh shit, this is a cool opportunity"?

莱尼：对于那些可能想帮助您完成该计划的人来说，如果他们只是说“哦，糟糕，这是一个很棒的机会”，那么与您联系的最佳方式是什么？

Paul Millerd: Yeah, Twitter, paul@strategyu.co, or I'm very easy to find.

Paul Millerd：是的，Twitter，paul@strategyu.co，或者很容易找到我。

My email is all over the place.

我的电子邮件到处都是。

But yeah.

但是是的。

Lenny: We'll link to it in the show notes too.

莱尼：我们也会在演出笔记中链接到它。

Just a couple more questions.

还有几个问题。

I feel like one criticism of this path is, is there anyone left to actually do work at companies and build things and scale if everyone ends up being on this pathless path, creating content, starting their own companies?

我觉得对这条道路的一个批评是，如果每个人最终都走在这条无路可走的道路上，创造内容，创办自己的公司，还有人真正在公司工作，创造东西并扩大规模吗？

Do you have any thoughts on that side of things?

您对这方面有什么想法吗？

Paul Millerd: I don't buy that, because I've met most people and most people are like, "Hell no," when they hear about my life.

保罗·米勒德：我不相信这一点，因为我见过大多数人，而大多数人在听说我的生活时都会说“天哪，不”。

Paul Millerd: I think it's an interesting critique.

保罗·米勒德：我认为这是一个有趣的批评。

I also think there's a more secular trend of gigification of work.

我还认为工作的数字化有一种更世俗的趋势。

All the growth in the economy from 2005 to 2015 in the labor market came from alternative work arrangements.

2005年至2015年劳动力市场的所有经济增长都来自替代性工作安排。

So if you search David Deming's work on this, it's pretty compelling.

因此，如果你搜索大卫·戴明（David Deming）在这方面的著作，你会发现它非常引人注目。

Right now, we don't really count non-traditional work that well, so it's really hard to get good data on this.

目前，我们并没有真正很好地统计非传统工作，因此很难获得这方面的良好数据。

But even the way companies are treating their internal talent, it's much more project-based.

但即使是公司对待内部人才的方式，也更多是基于项目的。

People are shifting around, moving to different roles a lot quicker.

人们正在转变，更快地转向不同的角色。

And I think that's going to continue.

我认为这种情况将会持续下去。

Paul Millerd: So you could make an argument that people will actually be able to slot into companies more easily in the future.

保罗·米勒德：所以你可以说，人们实际上能够在未来更容易地进入公司。

Right now, companies under exploit the creator economy and the freelance economy, because they're so tied to you have to hire somebody through a full-time job.

目前，公司正在利用创造者经济和自由职业经济，因为它们与你的联系如此紧密，必须通过全职工作来雇用某人。

Paul Millerd: So I think there's two sides to that, is one, most people would hate my life.

保罗·米勒德：所以我认为这有两个方面，一方面，大多数人会讨厌我的生活。

And two, the world is becoming more giggified.

第二，世界正变得更加数字化。

So it could go back the other way actually.

所以它实际上可以以另一种方式返回。

Lenny: I really like that advice.

莱尼：我真的很喜欢这个建议。

Paul, is there anything else you want to leave listeners with to maybe start down this pathless path or any other piece of advice before we get to very exciting lightning round?

保罗，在我们进入非常激动人心的闪电回合之前，你还有什么想留给听众的，可以让他们开始这条无路可走的道路，或者任何其他建议吗？

Paul Millerd: I think the key thing that doesn't get talked about enough is it might be hard and it might suck, but it might be worth it.

保罗·米勒德：我认为没有得到足够讨论的关键是它可能很难，可能很糟糕，但可能是值得的。

And I think that's a hard reframe for people, because people will say, "Well, I'm worried about not knowing what I'll do or not making money and all these things." And it's like, yeah, I felt like after quitting my job.

我认为这对人们来说是一个艰难的重构，因为人们会说，“好吧，我担心不知道自己会做什么，或者不赚钱等等。”就像，是的，我辞职后的感觉。

Paul Millerd: But man, I'm so glad I did it, because it enabled me to now know that I don't have regrets about trying this and figuring it out.

保罗·米勒德：但是伙计，我很高兴我做到了，因为它让我现在知道我并不后悔尝试这个并弄清楚它。

And a lot of people that do go back to their jobs are so much happier, because they know I tested that, I found my boundaries, I need more stability.

很多回到工作岗位的人都非常高兴，因为他们知道我已经测试过了，我找到了自己的界限，我需要更多的稳定性。

It's not this quit your job and get rich pitch.

这不是辞去工作致富的宣传。

It's very much like if you're somebody that has a sense that there's something more, there probably is, and it might be worth exploring.

这很像如果你感觉到还有更多东西，很可能还有，而且可能值得探索。

Lenny: What's the next step you recommend someone take to start exploring this pathless path?

莱尼：您建议人们开始探索这条无路可走的下一步是什么？

What's something they could do today or tomorrow or in the next-

他们今天或明天或下一个可以做什么——

Paul Millerd: So I'm very committed to creating resources for people around this.

Paul Millerd：所以我非常致力于为人们创造资源。

My podcast is all conversations of people on an unconventional path, and sort of the inner game of work.

我的播客是人们在非传统道路上的所有对话，以及工作的内心游戏。

And I don't talk about tactics and outcomes as much as really just, how does it feel?

我不谈论战术和结果，而只是谈论感觉如何？

How'd you deal with that?

你是怎么处理的？

Things like that.

诸如此类的事情。

And so I do that in my newsletter, my podcast, etc. But just find people that are on interesting pasts and ask them about their lives.

所以我在我的时事通讯、播客等中这样做。但只是找到那些有有趣过去的人，询问他们的生活。

Paul Millerd: One interesting thing I've had happen to me over the past few years is I've just met a much more wider diversity of people.

Paul Millerd：过去几年发生在我身上的一件有趣的事情是我刚刚遇到了更广泛的多元化的人。

I'm friends with people that work at restaurants, and work part time, and work weird schedules, and work nine months of the year and take three months off.

我和一些在餐馆工作的人是朋友，他们做兼职，工作时间很奇怪，一年工作九个月，休息三个月。

And now it just feels so much more normal what I'm doing, because before all I knew was full-time workers.

现在我感觉自己所做的事情变得更加正常了，因为之前我只知道自己是全职工人。

I was working all the time, and that's all you're surrounded by.

我一直在工作，而这就是你周围的一切。

So yeah, try to find the weirdos.

所以，是的，尝试找到怪人。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

And for folks that want to check out your book, should I just Google The Pathless Path?

对于那些想看看你的书的人，我应该直接谷歌《无路可走的道路》吗？

Paul Millerd: Pathlesspath.com.

保罗·米勒德：Pathlesspath.com。

I just moved over everything last month.

我上个月刚刚把所有东西都搬走了。

Lenny: Okay, great.

莱尼：好的，太好了。

And then we'll link to all of these things in the show notes.

然后我们将链接到演出笔记中的所有这些内容。

With that Paul, we've reached our very exciting lightning round.

有了保罗，我们就进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。

Are you ready?

你准备好了吗？

Lenny: What are two or three books that you've recommended most to other people?

莱尼：你向其他人推荐最多的两三本书是什么？

Paul Millerd: Yeah, one is called The Great Work of Your Life.

保罗·米勒德：是的，其中一个叫做《你一生中最伟大的工作》。

Sounds like a cheesy title, but that's actually a good resource for people that want to hear about people from history.

听起来像是一个俗气的标题，但这对于那些想了解历史人物的人来说实际上是一个很好的资源。

Over the past several hundred years, different eras of people that really did design their life around work.

在过去的几百年里，不同时代的人们确实围绕工作设计了自己的生活。

It was really interesting, and that was a great book.

这真的很有趣，那是一本很棒的书。

Paul Millerd: A second book I'd recommend, I actually really like Luke Burgis' book Wanting.

Paul Millerd：我推荐的第二本书，我实际上非常喜欢 Luke Burgis 的书《想要》。

That was another great personal story/deep dive into a nerdy topic.

这是另一个很棒的个人故事/深入探讨一个书呆子话题。

That's my favorite kind of book.

这是我最喜欢的一类书。

That's the kind of book I wrote, which was personal memoir plus nerdy deep dive.

这就是我写的书，是个人回忆录加上书呆子的深入探讨。

And Luke Burgis' is really good too, more from a tech perspective, because he went down the startup path as well.

卢克·伯吉斯（Luke Burgis）也非常好，更多地从技术角度来看，因为他也走上了创业之路。

Tut that's a great book.

嗯，这是一本很棒的书。

That was my favorite read of the year.

这是我今年最喜欢的读物。

Lenny: What is a favorite recent movie or TV show?

莱尼：最近最喜欢的电影或电视节目是什么？

Paul Millerd: I struggle to answer this, because I'm not watching much TV.

保罗·米勒德：我很难回答这个问题，因为我看电视的时间不多。

I did watch the Anthony Bourdain documentary.

我确实看过安东尼·波登的纪录片。

That was excellent.

那太好了。

Talk about a pathless path, and the ups and downs, and the struggles, and the dark side of it.

谈论一条无路可走的道路，以及其中的坎坷、挣扎和阴暗面。

Man, that person was bringing forth what is inside of him and grappling with his demons at the same time.

天哪，那个人正在释放他内心的东西，同时与他的恶魔作斗争。

That was a powerful story worth watching.

这是一个值得一看的强大故事。

Lenny: Do you have a favorite interview question that you like to ask when you interview, say, contractors or anyone else you work with or hire?

莱尼：当你面试承包商或与你一起工作或雇用的任何人时，你有最喜欢问的面试问题吗？

Paul Millerd: I'm always curious about, what makes you come alive?

Paul Millerd：我一直很好奇，是什么让你变得充满活力？

I want to work with people that are alive, and connected, and inspired.

我想与那些充满活力、相互联系、充满灵感的人一起工作。

So the two people I'm working with right now, one's a podcast producer in Poland, but he's doing a bunch of other stuff around video.

所以现在和我一起工作的两个人，一个是波兰的播客制作人，但他正在围绕视频做很多其他事情。

And he's super energized, used to be a lawyer, reinventing himself.

他精力充沛，曾经是一名律师，正在重塑自己。

The other person is also a former finance person in India, and she's two years into this self-employment journey.

另一个人也是印度的前财务人员，她的自营职业之旅已经两年了。

She's writing and exploring all these ideas.

她正在写作和探索所有这些想法。

So yeah, I'm always looking for that energy first and skills second.

所以，是的，我总是首先寻找能量，然后才是技能。

Lenny: Is there a favorite product you've recently discovered that you love?

Lenny：有没有您最近发现的最喜欢的产品？

Paul Millerd: I really love the Nuna travel stroller.

Paul Millerd：我真的很喜欢 Nuna 旅行婴儿车。

Super convenient for traveling.

出行超级方便。

Lenny: We don't have the travel stroller, but we have the Nuna car seat.

莱尼：我们没有旅行婴儿车，但我们有 Nuna 汽车安全座椅。

Paul Millerd: Yeah, yeah, we have that one too.

保罗·米勒德：是的，是的，我们也有那个。

It fits.

很合适。

So we've brought that around the world.

所以我们把它带到了世界各地。

That's been super convenient.

这真是太方便了。

And then more on the tech side, I just got into the esim game.

然后在技术方面，我刚刚进入了 esim 游戏。

That was amazing.

太棒了。

And then ChatGPT, I just created my own GPT to do podcast show notes automatically for me today.

然后是 ChatGPT，我今天刚刚创建了自己的 GPT 自动为我做播客节目笔记。

Took me an hour to train it, and it is incredible, so that's amazing.

我花了一个小时来训练它，这令人难以置信，所以这太神奇了。

Lenny: That's awesome.

莱尼：那太棒了。

I don't know if folks know, but there's a lennybot.com site that uses all of my podcast transcripts and newsletter to have a little bot that you could ask questions to.

我不知道人们是否知道，但是有一个 lennybot.com 网站使用我所有的播客成绩单和时事通讯来创建一个小机器人，您可以向其提问。

That's working actually, shockingly well.

这确实有效，非常好。

We're going to try using the new GPT thing that they just launched, where you can kind of train your own GPT and that'll be fun.

我们将尝试使用他们刚刚推出的新 GPT 东西，您可以在其中训练自己的 GPT，这会很有趣。

And actually, a podcast listener reached out to me and offered to help build this thing, so that's a huge success story from this podcast.

事实上，一位播客听众联系了我并提出帮助构建这个东西，所以这是这个播客的一个巨大的成功故事。

Lenny: Next question, two more questions.

莱尼：下一个问题，还有两个问题。

Do you have a favorite life motto that you find yourself coming back to, sharing with friends, finding really useful in work or in life?

您是否有最喜欢的人生格言，您发现自己会回想起并与朋友分享，并发现它在工作或生活中真正有用？

Paul Millerd: One, coming alive over getting ahead.

保罗·米勒德：第一，因取得进步而充满活力。

That's something I keep coming back to.

这是我不断回想起的事情。

I'm default skeptical of chasing achievement, and I use this to remind myself that it is about that personal energy versus extrinsic outcomes.

我默认对追逐成就持怀疑态度，我用它来提醒自己，这是关于个人能量与外在结果的关系。

Paul Millerd: I'm very convinced from my own life experience that the extrinsic outcomes aren't going to do a ton for me.

保罗·米勒德：根据我自己的生活经历，我非常确信外在结果不会对我产生太大影响。

Sure, I need to make enough money.

当然，我需要赚足够的钱。

But when I'm in extended states of feeling alive and connected to everything I'm doing in my life, that's it.

但当我处于一种感觉还活着并与我生活中所做的一切联系在一起的扩展状态时，就是这样。

And I basically repeated this mantra to myself right before rejecting the book deal.

在拒绝出书交易之前，我基本上对自己重复了这句话。

It was like I did not feel good in the conversation with the people.

就好像我在与人们交谈时感觉不太好。

They talked down to me, they told me that I probably wouldn't succeed, and it was like coming alive over getting ahead.

他们居高临下地对我说话，他们告诉我，我可能不会成功，这就像活过来了一样。

Don't need their prestige.

不需要他们的威望。

Lenny: Final question.

莱尼：最后一个问题。

You've been podcasting, I think, for six years.

我想你已经做播客六年了。

What's your best piece of advice for someone that wants to start podcasting, has maybe already been doing podcasting like myself, or being successful or anything along those lines?

对于那些想要开始播客、可能已经像我一样开始播客、或者取得成功或类似的事情的人，你最好的建议是什么？

Paul Millerd: Yeah.

保罗·米勒德：是的。

I think if you want to podcast to make money, it's probably not something you should get into.

我认为如果你想通过播客赚钱，它可能不应该进入。

Even if you have an audience, it's probably not the best way.

即使你有观众，这也可能不是最好的方式。

I think if you have a massive audience, it can work, but it takes a really long time.

我认为如果你有大量观众，它可以发挥作用，但需要很长时间。

Podcast is the ultimate long game, so you need to find some intrinsic connection to what you're actually doing.

播客是一场终极的长期游戏，因此您需要找到与您实际所做的事情之间的内在联系。

If you don't love the conversations or the format you're doing, don't do it.

如果您不喜欢正在进行的对话或形式，请不要这样做。

Paul Millerd: But yeah, I would recommend more people start podcasts.

保罗·米勒德：但是，是的，我建议更多的人开始播客。

I'm against...

我反对...

The New York Times says there's too many podcasts, but I take the opposing view.

《纽约时报》说播客太多了，但我持相反的观点。

I don't think there's that many podcasts.

我认为没有那么多播客。

If you ask people in their personal life out of tech bubbles, "How many people in your life have a podcast?" Now in Austin, a lot of people have podcasts, but yeah, most people don't have a podcast.

如果你在科技泡沫中问人们的个人生活，“你的生活中有多少人有播客？”现在在奥斯汀，很多人都有播客，但是，是的，大多数人没有播客。

Even if you do something like interview your parents or anything, it's such a cool, creative thing.

即使你做一些像采访你的父母之类的事情，这也是一件很酷、很有创意的事情。

It's free.

它是免费的。

It's free, and you can send it to everyone in the world.

它是免费的，您可以将其发送给世界上的每个人。

Podcasts and newsletters are incredible innovations.

播客和时事通讯是令人难以置信的创新。

Let it rip.

让它撕裂。

You had to get permission to do these things 10, 15 years ago.

10、15 年前，你必须获得许可才能做这些事情。

It's so great to be alive in today's world.

生活在当今世界真是太好了。

Lenny: I feel like when people say there's too much of say newsletters, too many podcasts, my answer is always there's always room for better newsletters and better podcasts.

莱尼：我觉得当人们说时事通讯太多、播客太多时，我的回答是总是有更好的时事通讯和播客的空间。

If you can deliver more useful, valuable, interesting stuff, people are going to pay attention.

如果你能提供更多有用、有价值、有趣的东西，人们就会关注。

The bar just keeps rising is the challenge.

门槛不断上升就是挑战。

Paul Millerd: Yeah.

保罗·米勒德：是的。

It's also like do it for the sake of itself.

这也像是为了自己而做。

Do it for the creative act.

为了创造性的行为而这样做。

The creative act can be super meaningful in and of itself.

创造性行为本身就非常有意义。

I've lost money in my podcast over the lifetime of it.

我的播客在其生命周期中一直在赔钱。

Love it.

爱它。

I don't care.

我不在乎。

I'm going to keep doing it.

我会继续这样做。

Lenny: And also, the best stuff often comes from just doing it for yourself and then realizing, "Wow, other people might find this interesting."

莱尼：而且，最好的东西往往来自于自己做，然后意识到，“哇，其他人可能会觉得这很有趣。”

Paul Millerd: Yeah.

保罗·米勒德：是的。

I didn't start getting podcast feedback until the last two years when it started growing a lot more.

直到最近两年，播客开始大幅增长时，我才开始收到反馈。

I was sort of just doing it into the void.

我只是在虚空中做这件事。

Lenny: Speaking of that, Paul, we've been on our own pathless path.

莱尼：说到这里，保罗，我们一直走在自己的无路可走的路上。

I feel like we're going to send a number of folks on their pathless path.

我觉得我们会让很多人走上无路可走的道路。

Two final questions.

最后两个问题。

Where can folks find you online if they want to reach out and learn more about what you're sharing in your journey, and how can listeners be useful to you?

如果人们想要联系并更多地了解您在旅程中分享的内容，可以在哪里找到您，以及听众如何对您有用？

Paul Millerd: Yeah, so I've been compiling a lot of my more recent stuff under pathlesspath.com, that will link you to my podcast, newsletter, community, and book.

Paul Millerd：是的，所以我一直在 pathlesspath.com 下编译了很多最近的内容，这会将您链接到我的播客、时事通讯、社区和书籍。

And I'm always willing to gift my book to anyone in the world who wants it.

我总是愿意将我的书送给世界上任何想要它的人。

Just email me.

只需给我发电子邮件即可。

I'll even send you a printed copy, if you don't have the money to do it.

如果你没有钱的话，我什至可以给你寄一份印刷版。

And I'm always happy to send bulk orders to people that want to gift it and do book clubs or things like that.

我总是很乐意向那些想要赠送它并参加读书俱乐部或类似活动的人发送批量订单。

And happy to send it at the author rate, which is about $4 per book.

并且很乐意按照作者价格发送，每本书大约 4 美元。

Paul Millerd: And yeah, I am starting to explore the potential of selling my StrategyU business or finding an owner operator who might want to get some sort of profit sharing or something like that.

Paul Millerd：是的，我开始探索出售我的 StrategyU 业务或寻找可能想要获得某种利润分享或类似内容的所有者经营者的潜力。

It'd be interesting if there are former consultants that might be interested in something like that.

如果有前顾问可能对类似的事情感兴趣，那就很有趣了。

Paul Millerd: I don't know.

保罗·米勒德：我不知道。

I'm so bad at asking for help.

我实在太不擅长寻求帮助了。

I think if you want to share my book, that would be cool, because it is pretty neat to make money doing something from something I'm really proud of.

我想如果你想分享我的书，那会很酷，因为通过我真正引以为傲的事情来赚钱是非常不错的。

Lenny: Go buy The Pathless Path, available all online bookstores, I imagine.

莱尼：去买《无路可走》吧，我想所有网上书店都有卖。

Paul, thank you so much for being here.

保罗，非常感谢你来到这里。

Paul Millerd: Amazing.

保罗·米勒德：太棒了。

Keep going on your path too.

也继续走自己的路吧。

I'm really inspired by how you're approaching your path and sharing your reflections too.

你如何走上自己的道路并分享你的反思，这让我深受启发。

Lenny: I appreciate that.

莱尼：我很感激。

Bye everyone.

再见大家。

Lenny: Thank you so much for listening.

莱尼：非常感谢您的聆听。

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如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review, as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.

您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。