What AI means for your product strategy | Paul Adams (CPO of Intercom)

Paul Adams: This is a meteor coming towards you.

保罗·亚当斯：这是一颗流星朝你飞来。

This is going to radically transform society.

这将从根本上改变社会。

And I think if people don't explore AI properly, it will leave them behind.

我认为，如果人们不正确探索人工智能，他们就会被抛在后面。

I'd start with the thing your product does.

我会从你的产品所做的事情开始。

"What's the core premise behind it?

“其背后的核心前提是什么？

Why do people use it?

人们为什么使用它？

What problem does it solve for them?" That kind of thing.

能为他们解决什么问题？”那种事。

So, go back to basics.

所以，回到基础。

And then ask, "Can AI do that?" And for a lot, the answer is going to be, "Yes, it can." For some it might be, "It can partially do it." And then, maybe for others, "It can't do that, at least not yet." And then, for some of it'll be replacement, AI would replace, it'll just do it.

然后问：“人工智能能做到吗？”对于很多人来说，答案是：“是的，可以。”对于某些人来说，可能是“它可以部分做到这一点”。然后，也许对其他人来说，“它不能做到这一点，至少现在还不能。”然后，对于其中一些将被取代，人工智能将取代，它就会做到这一点。

And, in other places, it'll be augmentation.

而且，在其他地方，这将是增强。

It'll augment.

它会增强。

It'll help people.

它会帮助人们。

But yeah, I think that you've got to match your product, and what AI can do, and what it will be able to do, and then ask yourself, "Okay, what are we going to do?"

但是，是的，我认为你必须匹配你的产品，以及人工智能可以做什么，以及它将能够做什么，然后问自己，“好吧，我们要做什么？”

Lenny: Today my guest is Paul Adams.

莱尼：今天我的客人是保罗·亚当斯。

Paul is chief product officer at Intercom, a role that he's held for over 10 years.

Paul 是 Intercom 的首席产品官，他已担任该职位 10 多年。

Prior to this role, he was global head of brand design at Facebook, a user researcher at Google, a product designer at Dyson, and his first job was an automotive interior designer.

在此之前，他曾担任 Facebook 品牌设计全球主管、谷歌用户研究员、戴森产品设计师，他的第一份工作是汽车内饰设计师。

In our conversation, Paul shares some amazing stories of failure, including the story of him giving a huge presentation where he froze on stage and had to walk off.

在我们的谈话中，保罗分享了一些令人惊奇的失败故事，包括他在演讲时在舞台上僵住并不得不走开的故事。

And what he learned from these experiences of failure.

以及他从这些失败的经历中学到了什么。

We then get deep into how to think about AI as a part of your product strategy, including a ton of great examples from Intercom's experience going all in on AI.

然后，我们深入探讨如何将人工智能视为产品战略的一部分，其中包括 Intercom 全力投入人工智能的大量优秀案例。

Paul also shares some of his favorite frameworks, and product lessons, and so much more.

Paul 还分享了一些他最喜欢的框架和产品课程等等。

Lenny: This is the first recording I've ever done not from my home studio, instead from a hotel room.

Lenny：这是我第一次不是在家庭录音室而是在酒店房间录制的。

So, this is a fun experiment for us all.

所以，这对我们所有人来说都是一个有趣的实验。

With that, I bring you Paul Adams after a short word from our sponsors.

在我们的赞助商简短发言后，我为您带来了保罗·亚当斯。

This episode is brought to you by Eppo.

本集由 Eppo 为您带来。

Eppo is a next generation A/B testing and feature management platform built by alums of Airbnb and Snowflake for modern growth teams.

Eppo 是由 Airbnb 和 Snowflake 的校友为现代增长团队构建的下一代 A/B 测试和功能管理平台。

Companies like Twitch, Miro, ClickUp and DraftKings rely on Eppo to power their experiments.

Twitch、Miro、ClickUp 和 DraftKings 等公司依靠 Eppo 来支持他们的实验。

Experimentation is increasingly essential for driving growth and for understanding the performance of new features.

实验对于推动增长和了解新功能的性能越来越重要。

And Eppo helps you increase experimentation velocity while unlocking rigorous deep analysis in a way that no other commercial tool does.

Eppo 可以帮助您提高实验速度，同时以其他商业工具无法做到的方式解锁严格的深度分析。

When I was at Airbnb, one of the things that I loved most was our experimentation platform, where I could set up experiments easily, troubleshoot issues, and analyze performance all on my own.

当我在 Airbnb 时，我最喜欢的事情之一就是我们的实验平台，在这里我可以轻松地自行设置实验、解决问题并分析性能。

Eppo does all that and more with advanced statistical methods that can help you shave weeks off experiment time and accessible UI for diving deeper into performance and out-of-the box reporting that helps you avoid annoying prolonged analytic cycles.

Eppo 通过先进的统计方法完成了这一切，并提供了更多功能，可以帮助您缩短数周的实验时间，并且可访问的 UI 可以更深入地了解性能，而开箱即用的报告可以帮助您避免烦人的长时间分析周期。

Lenny: Eppo also makes it easy for you to share experiment insights with your team, sparking new ideas for the A/B testing flywheel.

Lenny：Eppo 还使您可以轻松地与团队分享实验见解，激发 A/B 测试飞轮的新想法。

Eppo powers experimentation across every use case, including product, growth, machine learning, monetization, and email marketing.

Eppo 为每个用例提供实验支持，包括产品、增长、机器学习、货币化和电子邮件营销。

Check out Eppo at geteppo.com/lenny and 10X your experiment velocity.

请访问 geteppo.com/lenny 查看 Eppo，将您的实验速度提高 10 倍。

That's getE-P-P-O.com/lenny.

那是 getE-P-P-O.com/lenny。

This episode is brought to you by Hex.

本集由 Hex 为您带来。

If you're a data person, you probably have to jump between different tools to run queries, build visualizations, write Python, and send around a lot of screenshots and CSV files.

如果您是一名数据人员，您可能必须在不同的工具之间切换来运行查询、构建可视化、编写 Python 以及发送大量屏幕截图和 CSV 文件。

Hex brings everything together.

十六进制将一切结合在一起。

Its powerful notebook UI lets you analyze data in SQL, Python, or no-code in any combination and work together with live multiplayer and version control.

其强大的笔记本 UI 允许您以 SQL、Python 或任何组合的无代码方式分析数据，并与实时多人游戏和版本控制一起使用。

Lenny: And now, Hex's AI tools can generate queries and code, create visualizations, and even kickstart a whole analysis for you all from natural language prompts.

Lenny：现在，Hex 的人工智能工具可以生成查询和代码、创建可视化，甚至可以根据自然语言提示为大家启动整个分析。

It's like having an analytics copilot built right into where you're already doing your work.

这就像在您已经完成工作的地方内置了一个分析副驾驶。

Then, when you're ready to share, you can use Hex's drag and drop app builder to configure beautiful reports or dashboards that anyone can use.

然后，当您准备好共享时，您可以使用 Hex 的拖放应用程序构建器来配置任何人都可以使用的精美报告或仪表板。

Join the hundreds of data teams like Notion, AllTrails, Loom, Mixpanel, and Algolia using Hex every day to make their work more impactful.

加入数百个数据团队，如 Notion、AllTrails、Loom、Mixpanel 和 Algolia，每天使用 Hex，让他们的工作更具影响力。

Sign up today at hex.tech/lenny to get a 60-day free trial of the Hex team plan.

立即在 hex.tech/lenny 注册即可获得 Hex 团队计划的 60 天免费试用期。

That's hex.tech/lenny.

那是 hex.tech/lenny。

Paul, thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast.

保罗，非常感谢您来到这里，欢迎来到播客。

Paul Adams: Thanks, Lenny.

保罗·亚当斯：谢谢，莱尼。

Nice to be here.

很高兴来到这里。

Lenny: It's nice to have you here.

莱尼：很高兴你来到这里。

I've heard so many good things about you from so many different people, so I'm really happy that we're finally doing this.

我从很多不同的人那里听到了很多关于你的好话，所以我很高兴我们终于做到了这一点。

Also, you have an Irish accent, which is always a boost for ratings in my experience, so thank you for bringing that with you here.

另外，你有爱尔兰口音，根据我的经验，这总是能提高收视率，所以谢谢你把它带到这里。

Lenny: I wanted to start with a couple stories.

莱尼：我想从几个故事开始。

So the first is your story of giving a keynote at Cannes.

第一个是您在戛纳发表主题演讲的故事。

Can you share what happened there?

你能分享一下那里发生了什么吗？

Paul Adams: Yeah, some things that happened in work are very memorable at the time and they don't really scar you.

保罗·亚当斯：是的，工作中发生的一些事情当时非常令人难忘，而且它们并不会真正吓到你。

This goes in the book that have scarred for life.

这本书里有这句话，给我留下了终生的伤痕。

Yeah, it's good.

是的，这很好。

Long story short, I was at Facebook just over a decade ago.

长话短说，十多年前我还在 Facebook。

Loved it at the time.

当时很喜欢。

I think it was a great place to be at the time.

我认为当时这是一个很棒的地方。

And, basically San Francisco, I did a lot of talks for Facebook internally and externally.

而且，基本上是在旧金山，我为 Facebook 进行了很多内部和外部的演讲。

Facebook had a keynote slot, always had a keynote slot at Cannes, the world's biggest advertising festival.

Facebook 有一个主题演讲时段，在世界上最大的广告节戛纳电影节上总是有一个主题演讲时段。

And, the year prior, Zuck had been interviewed.

并且，前一年，扎克曾接受过采访。

He was the speaker, he'd been interviewed.

他是演讲者，他接受了采访。

He'd gotten a hard time on privacy.

他在隐私方面遇到了困难。

It didn't go well as well as they'd hoped.

事情并没有他们希望的那么顺利。

Paul Adams: So, the next year they asked me to do it.

保罗·亚当斯：所以，第二年他们要求我这么做。

Maybe it was the Irish accent that made the offer come my way.

也许是爱尔兰口音让我接受了这份工作。

And, yeah, I got out and spun a stage, the world's biggest advertising stage.

是的，我下了车，旋转了一个舞台，世界上最大的广告舞台。

And, I'd say, I was three, four minutes into the talk, a very similar talk when I'd given lots of times.

而且，我想说，我的演讲已经进行了三、四分钟，这是我已经做过很多次的非常相似的演讲。

And, I just froze.

而且，我只是愣住了。

I couldn't remember what I was supposed to say.

我不记得我应该说什么。

It was the first ever time in my life I'd rehearsed the talk word for word.

这是我一生中第一次逐字排练演讲。

Usually, I have talking points, and things get mixed around, and it's informal.

通常，我都会有谈话要点，而且事情会很混乱，而且是非正式的。

This was media trained, "Do not say the wrong thing." Kind of talk.

这是媒体训练的“不要说错话”。有点谈话。

And I just could not remember what to say.

我就是不记得该说什么。

I had some version of a panic attack, walked off-stage, I was still mic'd up, cursed.

我有点恐慌，走下舞台，麦克风仍然开着，我被诅咒了。

Everyone started laughing.

每个人都开始笑。

I was like, "Geez, are they laughing at me?

我当时想，“天哪，他们在嘲笑我吗？

Oh my God, this is..."

天哪，这是……”

Paul Adams: But, I managed to turn it around, I walked back out.

保罗·亚当斯：但是，我设法扭转了局面，我走了出去。

I'd been disarmed internally in my head.

我的内心已经被解除了武装。

And, the most of it went well.

而且，大部分进展顺利。

And I was famous that night.

那天晚上我就出名了。

Out in Cannes afterwards on whatever the sea front, it's just like rose everywhere.

之后在戛纳，无论在海边，到处都是玫瑰花。

And yeah, I was famous and infamous for my performance.

是的，我因我的表演而出名并声名狼藉。

Lenny: I feel like you lived the worst nightmare that everybody has when they're thinking about giving a talk.

莱尼：我觉得你经历了每个人在考虑发表演讲时都会经历的最糟糕的噩梦。

And, I think what's interesting is you survived.

而且，我认为有趣的是你活了下来。

And, I think that's a really interesting lesson is you could freeze in front of thousands of people, walk off-stage, and then it works out okay.

而且，我认为这是一个非常有趣的教训，你可以在数千人面前冻结，走下舞台，然后就可以了。

Paul Adams: Yeah.

保罗·亚当斯：是的。

And it all happened organically, I guess, or very naturally.

我想，这一切都是有机发生的，或者说非常自然。

But yeah, ever since then, every time I walk out onto a conference talk stage, still today, I have this tiny doubt in the back of my head.

但是，是的，从那时起，每次我走上会议演讲台时，直到今天，我的脑后都会有这个小小的疑问。

It's never happened since.

从那以后就再也没有发生过。

But yeah, I think you have to go with it with these things, when life throws you these, whatever, curveballs you have got to adapt and it's not that big a deal.

但是，是的，我认为你必须接受这些事情，当生活给你带来这些，无论如何，曲线球时，你必须适应，这没什么大不了的。

None of these things are that big a deal, at the end of the day.

归根结底，这些事情都没什么大不了的。

You move on and live and learn.

你继续前进，生活和学习。

So yeah, but I still hope it doesn't happen again.

是的，但我还是希望这样的事情不要再发生。

Lenny: I also hate public speaking and I always fear this is exactly what's going to happen to me.

莱尼：我也讨厌公开演讲，我总是担心这正是会发生在我身上的事情。

And so, I think this is nice to hear, that even when the worst possible thing basically happens, things can survive.

所以，我认为这很高兴听到，即使最糟糕的事情基本上发生了，事情也能幸存。

Lenny: A second area I wanted to hear from is your time at Google.

莱尼：我想听听的第二个方面是你在谷歌的经历。

And, there's a couple products you worked on at Google.

而且，您在 Google 开发了一些产品。

Both of them were not what you'd call big successes.

两者都算不上所谓的巨大成功。

And then, there's a transition to Facebook, which was also messy.

然后，又过渡到 Facebook，这也很混乱。

Can you just share a couple stories from that time?

您能分享几个当时的故事吗？

Paul Adams: Yeah.

保罗·亚当斯：是的。

Similar to the walking on stage thing, you live and learn.

就像在舞台上行走一样，你生活和学习。

And, I was at Google for four years now and I was at Facebook for two and a half years or so.

而且，我现在在 Google 工作了四年，在 Facebook 工作了两年半左右。

And, in both of those companies, this is at the height of...

而且，在这两家公司中，这正处于……的顶峰。

The social tech wave was at its peak.

社交科技浪潮正处于顶峰。

Google were very afraid of the existential threat posed by Facebook.

谷歌非常害怕 Facebook 带来的生存威胁。

Facebook were very confident they could pull off some new social advertising unit that would be an AdWords or something like that, that would destroy Google's revenue, eat them from the inside out.

Facebook 非常有信心他们可以推出一些新的社交广告部门，比如 AdWords 或类似的东西，这会摧毁谷歌的收入，从内到外吞噬它们。

And so, being there at the time was fascinating and moving to the new companies.

因此，当时在那里工作是令人着迷的，并转移到了新公司。

At Google, I worked on a lot of failed social projects, like you mentioned.

正如你提到的，在谷歌，我参与了许多失败的社交项目。

Google Buzz, Google Ventilator, Google Plus.

谷歌 Buzz、谷歌呼吸机、谷歌 Plus。

I think, a lot of the motivation for those projects came from a place of fear.

我认为，这些项目的很多动机都来自于恐惧。

It didn't come from a place of, "Let's make a great product for people.

它并不是来自“让我们为人们制造一款伟大的产品。

Let's really understand the things people struggle with when communicating with family and friends.

让我们真正了解人们在与家人和朋友沟通时遇到的困难。

Let's really, really try and create something wonderful." It came from a place of fear.

让我们真的、真的尝试创造一些美妙的东西。”它来自恐惧的地方。

Paul Adams: And so, during those times, I learned I think how not to lead in places.

保罗·亚当斯：所以，在那段时间里，我学会了如何不去领导某些地方。

And by the way, I should say, at the time in Google, there was other things happening that were amazing, like Google were building Google Maps, an incredible product.

顺便说一句，我应该说，当时在谷歌，还发生了其他令人惊奇的事情，比如谷歌正在开发谷歌地图，这是一个令人难以置信的产品。

One of my favorite products.

我最喜欢的产品之一。

I think one of the best products ever made.

我认为这是有史以来最好的产品之一。

They were building Android.

他们正在构建 Android。

I was in the mobile team and the mobile apps team at the time, the Android came out.

当时我在移动团队和移动应用团队，Android 出来了。

So, they can make an incredibly good product.

因此，他们可以制造出非常好的产品。

So, I just happened to be in the social side, which wasn't as good.

所以，我只是碰巧从事社交方面的工作，这并不是那么好。

And, yeah, Google Buzz is a privacy disaster, and Google Plus is similar.

是的，Google Buzz 是一场隐私灾难，Google Plus 也类似。

Paul Adams: And so, halfway through I'd published research about groups and I'd done a ton of research.

保罗·亚当斯：所以，中途我发表了关于群体的研究，并且做了大量的研究。

An interesting side note there is, at the time, I was working in the UX team as a researcher, I was been asked to do a lot of tactical research, like usability study type stuff, like can people use these products?

一个有趣的旁注是，当时，我在用户体验团队担任研究员，我被要求做很多战术研究，比如可用性研究类型的东西，比如人们可以使用这些产品吗？

And, I ended up doing a lot of formative research as well in the same session.

而且，我最终在同一次会议中做了很多形成性研究。

So, I'd say to the team, "Hey, I'll do the research.

所以，我会对团队说：“嘿，我会做研究。

I'll answer your questions.

我会回答你的问题。

But also, I'm going to do this other thing, and I'm going to take 20 minutes doing that." And so, what we used to do is, what I used to do with people was map out their social network, all the people in it, their family, their friends, how they communicate.

而且，我还要做另一件事，我会花 20 分钟来做这件事。”所以，我们过去所做的是，我过去与人们一起做的是绘制他们的社交网络，其中的所有人，他们的家人，他们的朋友，他们的沟通方式。

We'd map on all the channels, we'd talk about what worked well, what didn't.

我们会绘制所有渠道的地图，我们会讨论哪些有效，哪些无效。

And, we did this with dozens and dozens of people over the course of maybe 18 months.

而且，我们在大约 18 个月的时间里与几十个人一起完成了这项工作。

And the same pattern emerged every single time, which was, people need way better ways to communicate with small groups of family and friends.

每次都会出现同样的模式，那就是，人们需要更好的方式与一小群家人和朋友进行沟通。

Paul Adams: And I look back now and go like, "WhatsApp." Or it may be iMessage if everyone's on Apple.

保罗·亚当斯：我现在回想起来，就像“WhatsApp”。或者，如果每个人都使用 Apple，则可能是 iMessage。

But, really obvious in hindsight.

但是，事后看来确实很明显。

But at the time, not obvious.

但在当时，并不明显。

And so, we tried to build a product around that called Google Plus.

因此，我们尝试围绕该产品构建一款名为 Google Plus 的产品。

But, again, it came from the wrong place.

但是，它又来自错误的地方。

And so, halfway through, the research that I've done, all this research had been made public through a conference talk.

所以，到一半的时候，我所做的研究，所有这些研究都通过一次会议演讲公开了。

And, Facebook noticed, got in touch, one thing led to another, and I left and joined Facebook, which was an amazing thing for me, personally.

Facebook 注意到了，并与我取得了联系，一件事引发了另一件事，然后我离开并加入了 Facebook，这对我个人来说是一件了不起的事情。

Paul Adams: Facebook was an amazing place at the time and exciting.

Paul Adams：Facebook 在当时是一个令人惊奇且令人兴奋的地方。

And they were trying to do things for the other reasons, the good reasons.

他们试图出于其他原因做事，有充分的理由。

"Okay, let's build an amazing product for people."

“好吧，让我们为人们打造一款令人惊叹的产品。”

Lenny: And this was during Google Plus being built, you basically shifted.

Lenny：这是在 Google Plus 构建期间，你基本上发生了转变。

Paul Adams: Yeah, midway, I'm stressed to even tell you about it.

保罗·亚当斯：是的，中途，我什至有压力告诉你这件事。

The project hadn't been launched, it was still under wraps.

该项目尚未启动，仍处于保密状态。

It was highly confidential.

这是高度机密的。

Google had done a lot of things at the time that were the first for them.

谷歌当时做了很多对他们来说是第一次的事情。

I don't know if they've done them since.

我不知道从那以后他们是否已经这样做了。

But things like, everyone worked in Google Plus was sent to a different building.

但类似的事情是，在 Google Plus 工作的每个人都被送到了不同的大楼。

That building had a different key card.

那栋大楼有一张不同的钥匙卡。

If you didn't work in Google Plus you could not get in.

如果您不在 Google Plus 工作，您就无法进入。

All sorts of counter-cultural things at the time.

当时各种反文化的东西。

And, as a result, there was a lot of antagonism internally for Google Plus.

结果，Google Plus 内部出现了很多对抗。

And so, when I left in the middle of the project, leaving with all of the plans in my head to the enemy, some people saw me as a traitor, understandably.

因此，当我在项目进行到一半时离开，将脑子里的所有计划都交给敌人时，有些人将我视为叛徒，这是可以理解的。

Other people thought I was enlightened, too fancy you talked to.

其他人认为我很开明，太喜欢和你说话了。

But it was the right thing for me to do.

但这对我来说是正确的事情。

But at the time, it was a hard thing to do.

但在当时，这是一件很难做到的事情。

Lenny: I know there's also a lot of scrutiny in what you took with you and the process.

莱尼：我知道对你随身携带的物品和过程也有很多审查。

Paul Adams: Yeah, when I left, Google assumed that I was one of the spies.

保罗·亚当斯：是的，当我离开时，谷歌认为我是间谍之一。

I was quarantined.

我被隔离了。

I told them I was leaving.

我告诉他们我要走了。

They forensically analyzed my laptop, all sorts of stuff like that.

他们对我的笔记本电脑进行了法医分析，诸如此类。

So, it was pretty intense.

所以，这是相当激烈的。

Looking back, I can understand why that happened.

回想起来，我能理解为什么会发生这样的事。

But the root cause for me is that the project has been run from a place of competitive fear, which I don't think leads to good things.

但对我来说，根本原因是该项目是在竞争恐惧的情况下运行的，我认为这不会带来好处。

Lenny: So one of the themes through the stories you just shared is, let's say, failure is...

莱尼：所以你刚才分享的故事的主题之一是，失败是......

I don't want to make it that harsh, but just things not working out.

我不想说得那么严厉，但事情并不顺利。

And, I'm curious as a product leader, how important you think that is for people to go through, if you think that's something that is almost a good thing?

而且，我很好奇作为产品负责人，如果你认为这几乎是一件好事，你认为这对人们经历有多重要？

And, I guess just is there anything there that you find helpful as a coach, as a mentor, as two people that are trying to become basically you?

而且，我想作为一名教练、作为一名导师、作为两个试图成为你的人，你觉得有什么东西对你有帮助吗？

Paul Adams: Very, very.

保罗·亚当斯：非常非常。

It still is.

现在仍然如此。

It still is.

现在仍然如此。

I've personally failed so many times.

我个人已经失败过很多次了。

There are two stories and the Google one is long deep tentacles.

有两个故事，谷歌的一个是长而深的触手。

They're two stories.

他们是两个故事。

I failed a ton of times.

我失败了很多次。

I remember, when I was at Facebook I was very happy.

我记得，当我在 Facebook 时，我非常高兴。

And, I knew Eoghan and Des, the co-founders of Intercom.

而且，我认识 Intercom 的联合创始人 Eoghan 和 Des。

And, they were trying to persuade me to join Intercom.

而且，他们试图说服我加入 Intercom。

We were like, it was a 10-person company at the time.

我们当时的感觉是，这是一家 10 人的公司。

But, Eoghan said something to me at that time which has stuck with me ever since.

但是，伊根当时对我说了一些话，从那以后我就一直铭记在心。

He said, "At Facebook, you can design the product.

他说：“在 Facebook，你可以设计产品。

But at Intercom, you can design the company." And, that was extremely appealing to me, a great pitch.

但在 Intercom，你可以设计公司。”而且，这对我来说非常有吸引力，这是一个很棒的推介。

He's like, "Just design the company with us that you want to work in."

他说，“只要和我们一起设计你想工作的公司就可以了。”

Paul Adams: And so, part of that was a company that embraces failure, that says it's okay to try things.

保罗·亚当斯：所以，这部分是因为公司拥抱失败，表示尝试新事物是可以的。

I'm a big believer in big bets, high risk, high reward.

我坚信大赌注、高风险、高回报。

I don't get as excited about incremental things.

我对渐进的事情不那么兴奋。

No, I haven't said that.

不，我没这么说过。

There's of course a place for that too, especially as companies get bigger.

当然，这也是有其用武之地的，尤其是当公司规模不断扩大时。

But, I get excited about big bets.

但是，我对大赌注感到兴奋。

And if you make big bets, you're going to get a lot of it wrong.

如果你下了大赌注，你就会犯很多错误。

So a lot of the principles that we built here at Intercom are in building software.

因此，我们在 Intercom 制定的许多原则都是在构建软件时制定的。

Paul Adams: We have a principle called Ship to Learn.

保罗·亚当斯：我们有一个原则，叫做“船舶学习”。

And, we've actually changed it since.

而且，从那以后我们实际上已经改变了它。

It's over on the wall here.

就在这儿的墙上。

Ship fast, ship early, ship often is what it says now.

发货快，发货早，发货频繁，这就是现在所说的。

You say Ship to Learn.

你说“通过船舶学习”。

Ship fast, ship early, ship often.

发货快、发货早、发货频繁。

So, in that idea is the idea of failure.

所以，这个想法就是失败的想法。

It's not going to go right.

事情不会进展顺利。

And, it's going to go wrong more often than not.

而且，它常常会出错。

But if you ship early, and fast, and learn fast, you can change fast, and you can improve fast.

但如果你尽早、快速、快速学习，你就可以快速改变，也可以快速提高。

And, that's the culture that we, as much as possible, try to embrace and teach people.

而且，这就是我们尽可能地尝试拥抱和教导人们的文化。

But it's much easier said than done.

但说起来容易做起来难。

Lenny: Yeah.

莱尼：是的。

Especially when you're in the moment like, "God dammit.

尤其是当你在这样的时刻，“该死的。

Everything's going to fall apart.

一切都会崩溃。

I really messed this one up."

我真的把这件事搞砸了。”

Paul Adams: Yeah.

保罗·亚当斯：是的。

And there's a trade-off with quality that people really struggle with.

人们确实在与质量之间进行权衡。

We've high standards of ourselves.

我们对自己有很高的标准。

A lot of Intercom comes from a design founder background.

很多Intercom的创始人都来自于设计背景。

We value the craft a lot.

我们非常重视这门手艺。

We never want to be embarrassed by what we ship.

我们不想因为我们所运送的东西而感到尴尬。

So there's a real tension there, a real trade-off, where people have these high standards, which we encourage.

因此，那里存在真正的紧张局势，真正的权衡，人们有我们鼓励的高标准。

We encourage them to ship fast, and learn, and make mistakes.

我们鼓励他们快速交付、学习并犯错误。

It's a constant tension that we're navigating.

我们面临着持续的紧张局势。

Lenny: Speaking of taking big bets and going all in, I know there's been a huge shift at Intercom to move towards AI and embrace AI.

Lenny：说到大赌注和全力以赴，我知道 Intercom 已经发生了巨大的转变，转向人工智能并拥抱人工智能。

And so, maybe just to start broadly, I'm curious just what are some of your broader insights or surprises so far in how you've thought about AI and how you think AI will integrate into product and product strategy?

因此，也许只是从广泛的角度开始，我很好奇到目前为止，在您如何看待人工智能以及您认为人工智能将如何融入产品和产品战略方面，您有哪些更广泛的见解或惊喜？

Paul Adams: What day that ChatGPT launch?

Paul Adams：ChatGPT 哪一天发布？

November 29th, I think, last year.

我想是去年11月29日。

Ever since that day, I literally wake up every day thinking about AI pretty much.

从那天起，我每天醒来都在思考人工智能。

And, I read as much as possible and still feel like I'm way behind in it.

而且，我尽可能多地阅读，但仍然感觉自己远远落后。

I think, for me, when I talk to you about AI, people typically fall into one of two camps.

我认为，对我来说，当我和大家谈论人工智能时，人们通常会陷入两个阵营之一。

You're either all in, really truly all in.

你要么全力以赴，真的全力以赴。

This is a meteor coming towards you.

这是一颗流星朝你飞来。

This is bigger than mobile as a technology shift, as big as the internet.

作为一种技术转变，这比移动更重要，与互联网一样重要。

Maybe it's bigger than the internet itself as a technology shift, the way it'll shape society.

作为一种技术转变，它可能比互联网本身更重要，它将塑造社会。

So I'm all in.

所以我全力以赴。

I've gone over the hill or whatever.

我已经翻过了山或者什么的。

I'm over the other side.

我在另一边。

And so, there's people in that camp.

所以，那个营地里有人。

Paul Adams: And then, I think there's people in another camp, which is, "I've heard this before.

保罗·亚当斯：然后，我认为还有另一个阵营的人，那就是，“我以前听说过这个。

It's hype.

这是炒作。

Last year was crypto.

去年是加密货币。

It was Web3.

那是Web3。

None of those things worked out.

这些事情都没有成功。

There was the metaverse." So, there's definitely I think a lot of skepticism or maybe cynicism around it.

那里有虚拟宇宙。”所以，我认为肯定存在很多怀疑或愤世嫉俗的声音。

And I don't understand why.

我不明白为什么。

The other things didn't really pan out.

其他事情并没有真正成功。

The metaverse is coming back.

虚拟宇宙即将回归。

And, I'm trying to remember, there's the law where you have the hype, and then the trough of disillusionment, and then you come out the other side.

而且，我努力记住，有一条法则，你会经历炒作，然后是幻灭的低谷，然后你就会从另一边走出来。

Paul Adams: Yeah.

保罗·亚当斯：是的。

And I think that's where a lot of people might be, where there was so much hype, it was so noisy, and still is a little bit so noisy that you tune it out a little bit.

我认为那里可能有很多人，那里有太多的炒作，太吵闹了，而且仍然有点吵闹，你可以把它调低一点。

And, I think, some people have fallen into that camp.

而且，我认为，有些人已经陷入了这个阵营。

I'm all in in the other camp.

我完全属于另一个阵营。

This is going to radically transform society and it blows my mind even seeing new types of things that come out, like ChatGPT Vision just came out recently, and just seeing the things that people can do with it.

这将从根本上改变社会，甚至看到新类型的事物出现，比如最近刚刚推出的 ChatGPT Vision，以及人们可以用它做的事情，都让我大吃一惊。

And we're just scratching the surface still.

我们还只是触及表面。

So, we're all in, for sure.

所以，我们都参与其中，这是肯定的。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

I want to unpack that.

我想把它拆开。

But, I think there's also this camp of people that like, "Yes, something big is happening.

但是，我认为也有这样一群人喜欢说：“是的，有大事正在发生。

I just don't have the time to understand, to build, to play around." What have you found and/or what advice would you share to people that are just like, "I want to go deeper down this rabbit hole.

我只是没有时间去理解、去构建、去玩。”您发现了什么和/或您会向那些“我想深入这个兔子洞”的人分享什么建议。

I just don't know where to start, because I have so much work to do already and this isn't a side thing."

我只是不知道从哪里开始，因为我已经有很多工作要做，而这不是一件小事。”

Paul Adams: The advice I have for people, and the advice I have for myself, I'm in that too, I wake up every day to too many emails, and Slack chats, and people knocking on my door, and my desk, and all things.

保罗·亚当斯：我对别人的建议，以及我对自己的建议，我也有这样的建议，我每天醒来都会看到太多的电子邮件、Slack 聊天、人们敲我的门、敲我的办公桌等等。

So, this is a challenge for me too.

所以，这对我来说也是一个挑战。

You just have to take the time.

你只需要花点时间。

There's just no other way for me.

我没有其他办法。

And that to me doesn't mean...

这对我来说并不意味着...

It's about priorities.

这是关于优先事项的。

It doesn't mean that you need to work crazy hours.

这并不意味着您需要疯狂工作。

I don't believe in working crazy hours.

我不相信疯狂的工作时间。

I don't know what hours I work.

我不知道我的工作时间是几点。

I don't know, 50 hours a week maybe.

我不知道，也许每周 50 小时。

I think, beyond that, you start to make bad decisions and things like that.

我认为，除此之外，你会开始做出错误的决定之类的事情。

You get tired.

你会累的。

And you need to live the rest of your life.

而你需要好好过完余生。

You got to put it into your day.

你必须把它融入你的一天。

Whether that's setting aside dedicated time to read.

无论是留出专门的时间来阅读。

Paul Adams: Reading is the thing.

保罗·亚当斯：阅读就是关键。

You got to read.

你必须读书。

You got to stay up to date, and you got to play with things, and try things.

你必须跟上时代的发展，你必须尝试新事物，尝试新事物。

If you don't have ChatGPT...

如果您没有 ChatGPT...

If you don't have a...

如果你没有...

I can't remember if it's a pro licenser, whatever, but if you haven't upgraded to get access to things like GPT for Vision, where you can take photos and you have the mobile app.

我不记得它是否是专业许可证，无论如何，但如果你还没有升级到可以访问 GPT for Vision 之类的东西，你可以在其中拍照并且拥有移动应用程序。

And I was going out for dinner last Friday night with my wife.

上周五晚上我和妻子出去吃晚饭。

I try not to take work to dinner with my wife.

我尽量不带工作去和妻子共进晚餐。

But, I wanted to try it.

但是，我想尝试一下。

And, I took some photos of her food.

而且，我还给她拍了一些食物的照片。

And, you can do all sorts of crazy stuff, like tell you how healthy the meal is or whatever.

而且，你可以做各种疯狂的事情，比如告诉你这顿饭有多健康等等。

Paul Adams: Anyway.

保罗·亚当斯：无论如何。

You got to try it.

你一定要尝试一下。

You just got to try it.

你只需要尝试一下。

So, my advice people is, you've got to try it.

所以，我的建议是，你必须尝试一下。

You've got to set aside the time, or it'll pass you by.

你必须留出时间，否则它就会从你身边溜走。

It does remind me the mobile wave about a decade ago.

它确实让我想起了大约十年前的移动浪潮。

Again, I was at Google at the time, I was working on the mobile team.

再说一次，我当时在谷歌，在移动团队工作。

So I guess, it was my job to stay on top of things.

所以我想，我的工作就是掌控一切。

But, at that time, some companies like Facebook went all in on it, maybe a bit late, but they eventually made the brave decision.

但是，当时Facebook等一些公司全力以赴，也许有点晚了，但他们最终做出了勇敢的决定。

I think if people don't explore AI properly, it will leave them behind.

我认为如果人们不正确地探索人工智能，他们就会被抛在后面。

Lenny: It reminds me, I think, at Facebook, Zuck, and also Airbnb, Brian did this, is he said, "Any mocks you show me for new product designs have to be in a mobile app or on a mobile web.

Lenny：我想，这让我想起，在 Facebook、Zuck 以及 Airbnb，Brian 就是这样做的，他说，“你向我展示的任何新产品设计的模拟都必须在移动应用程序或移动网络上。

They can no longer be desktop for now."

它们现在不能再成为桌面设备。”

Paul Adams: Right.

保罗·亚当斯：对。

Yeah.

是的。

Same with Facebook.

与 Facebook 相同。

Yeah, that's right.

是的，没错。

Lenny: I guess, do you think that that's the way to approach this is as a leader, just, "Everything you bring me needs to have some AI component." That sounds probably not like a good idea, but is there something that you're thinking about, or have done of just convincing people this is where you want to spend your time?

莱尼：我想，你是否认为作为领导者应该采取这样的方式来解决这个问题，只是，“你带给我的一切都需要有一些人工智能组件。”这听起来可能不是一个好主意，但是您正在考虑或已经做了一些事情来说服人们这是您想花时间的地方吗？

Paul Adams: Yeah, it's harder, for sure.

保罗·亚当斯：是的，这确实更难。

It's harder, because-

这更难，因为——

Paul Adams: ...

保罗·亚当斯：...

Yeah, a lot of the tech is invisible.

是的，很多技术是看不见的。

We have a machine learning team we've had on here for a long time, so we've been working in this space for quite some time.

我们有一个机器学习团队，我们已经在这里工作了很长时间，所以我们已经在这个领域工作了相当长的一段时间。

But, it's funny, even if you go back 18 months, I think if I was on your podcast 18 months ago and you said to me like, "Hey, what do you think about AI?" I would've said something like, "It's not real.

但是，有趣的是，即使你回到 18 个月前，我想如果 18 个月前我在你的播客上，你对我说，“嘿，你对人工智能有什么看法？”我会这样说：“这不是真的。

Machine learning's real, let's talk about that." So, things change, and my perception of it's changed.

机器学习是真实的，让我们来谈谈吧。”所以，事情发生了变化，我对它的看法也发生了变化。

But a lot of the improvements are behind the scenes.

但很多改进都是在幕后进行的。

They're with large language models or different types of things people are building in the background of infrastructure.

它们具有大型语言模型或人们在基础设施背景下构建的不同类型的东西。

Paul Adams: So I don't know what it looks like to design mobile mock-ups that are AI mock-ups.

Paul Adams：所以我不知道设计人工智能模型的移动模型是什么样子。

But I do think that people need to start really thinking strategically.

但我确实认为人们需要开始真正进行战略思考。

Maybe it's just not a mock-up stage, but start to think really strategically about their product and whether it's in the line of the media, or it's coming or not.

也许这不仅仅是一个模型阶段，而是开始真正战略性地思考他们的产品，以及它是否符合媒体的要求，或者它是否即将到来。

It's not everything is.

并非一切都是如此。

And if so, for some I think they require a foundational strategic change.

如果是这样，我认为对于某些人来说，他们需要进行根本性的战略变革。

Others, it might be less so.

其他人的情况可能不那么严重。

But, I think that's actually the head space that I think people need to be in.

但是，我认为这实际上是人们需要处于的顶部空间。

Lenny: Can you impact that further?

莱尼：你能进一步影响这一点吗？

What does that look like to really think deeply about whether your product is in the way of the meteor?

真正深入思考你的产品是否挡住了流星的去路，这是什么样子的？

Paul Adams: You can get sidetracked by the technology, for sure.

Paul Adams：当然，你可能会被技术转移注意力。

And I do.

我确实这么做了。

I just mentioned, hey, going out for dinner and taking a photo of my food.

我刚刚提到，嘿，出去吃晚饭并给我的食物拍张照片。

You can get sidetracked by the tech and some of it's really cool.

你可能会被技术所迷惑，其中一些技术真的很酷。

I wouldn't start there.

我不会从那里开始。

I'd start with the thing your product does.

我会从你的产品所做的事情开始。

What's the core premise behind it?

其背后的核心前提是什么？

Why do people use it?

人们为什么使用它？

What problem does it solve for them?

为他们解决什么问题？

That kind of thing.

那种事。

And then, ask the question.

然后，提出问题。

So go back to basics.

所以回到基础知识。

"Okay, what is my product for?

“好吧，我的产品有什么用？

And why do people love it?' And then ask, "Can AI do that?" And for a lot the answer's going to be, "Yes, it can." For some, it might be, "It can partially do it." And then, maybe for others, "It can't do that, at least not yet."

为什么人们喜欢它？然后问：“人工智能能做到吗？”对于很多人来说，答案是：“是的，可以。”对于某些人来说，可能是“它可以部分做到这一点”。然后，也许对其他人来说，“它不能做到这一点，至少现在还不能。”

Paul Adams: So you're going to need to map what your product does against what AI can do.

Paul Adams：所以你需要将你的产品的功能与人工智能的功能进行映射。

And AI can do a lot.

人工智能可以做很多事情。

It can write.

它可以写。

I'll give you a list.

我会给你一个清单。

It can write, it can summarize, it can summarize text, it can write text, it can answer queries, it can find facts, it can scan text, it can scan images.

它可以写作，它可以总结，它可以总结文本，它可以编写文本，它可以回答查询，它可以找到事实，它可以扫描文本，它可以扫描图像。

It can listen to your voice and repeat it.

它可以听你的声音并重复它。

It can take actions.

它可以采取行动。

That's the next big thing coming.

这就是下一件大事。

It can take actions, actually do things.

它可以采取行动，实际做事。

It could like, I mean, "Hey AI.

我的意思是，它可能会说，“嘿人工智能。

Whatever the AI is called.

不管人工智能叫什么名字。

"Change my flight to Tuesday." Right?

“把我的航班改到星期二。”正确的？

It can do things like that.

它可以做类似的事情。

Paul Adams: And so, it can do a lot of things.

Paul Adams：所以，它可以做很多事情。

It can build rules.

它可以建立规则。

So, I think any product that has any workflow in it, which is almost all B2B SaaS products, any product that has multimedia in it, they're in the media line or whatever.

所以，我认为任何有工作流程的产品，几乎都是 B2B SaaS 产品，任何有多媒体的产品，它们都在媒体线或其他什么地方。

I don't don't know if this metaphor is working.

不知道这个比喻是否成立。

But, the media is coming and they're in its path.

但是，媒体来了，他们挡住了它的路。

And so, for a lot of these products that you just need to look at what AI can do.

因此，对于许多此类产品，您只需要看看人工智能可以做什么。

And then, for some of it'll be replacement.

然后，其中一些将被替换。

AI would replace, it'll just do it.

人工智能会取代它，它会做到这一点。

And, in other places it'll be augmentation.

而且，在其他地方，这将是增强。

It'll augment.

它会增强。

It'll help people as the copilot ideas that are going around.

它将帮助人们成为正在流行的副驾驶想法。

But yeah, I think that you've got to map your product, and what AI can do, and what it will be able to do, and then ask yourself, "Okay, what are we going to do?"

但是，是的，我认为你必须规划你的产品，以及人工智能可以做什么，以及它将能够做什么，然后问自己，“好吧，我们要做什么？”

Lenny: Is there an example of that at Intercom or a different company of, "Here's a problem we're trying to solve?

Lenny：Intercom 或其他公司是否有这样的例子：“这是我们正在尝试解决的问题？

Oh, AI can actually do this fully for us."

哦，人工智能实际上可以完全为我们做到这一点。”

Paul Adams: Oh, yeah.

保罗·亚当斯：哦，是的。

I'll give you Intercom first.

我先给你提供对讲机。

Again, this date, I think it was November 29th, etched in our head.

再说一遍，这个日期，我认为是 11 月 29 日，铭刻在我们的脑海中。

We have Fergal who was our head of machine learning.

Fergal 是我们的机器学习主管。

And, Fergal just turns around that day and he's like...

而且，费格尔那天一转身，他就像……

Okay, I think he tweeted something actually.

好吧，我认为他实际上发了一些推文。

He had a tweet that day that was like, "This is it.

那天他发了一条推文，内容是：“就是这样。

This is the time.

现在是时候了。

This is the moment.

这就是现在。

This is the before after." I actually often talk about people...

这是之前之后。”其实我经常谈论人...

because this is a framework I have, before, after moments.

因为这是我之前、之后的一个框架。

This is a before after moment.

这是一个之前之后的时刻。

That was before.

那是以前的事了。

And that is after.

那是之后的事了。

And everything has changed.

一切都变了。

So, we literally ripped up our strategy almost entirely, and started again, from first principles and said, "Okay, why do people use Intercom?" Intercom is a customer support product.

因此，我们几乎完全放弃了我们的策略，并从首要原则重新开始，并说：“好吧，人们为什么使用 Intercom？”对讲机是一种客户支持产品。

And then, very soon after that, Sam Altman, who's the founder and head of OpenAI, said, "Hey, one of the first industries that's going to be disrupted is customer service." We're like, "Yep."

然后，不久之后，OpenAI 的创始人兼负责人 Sam Altman 说道：“嘿，最先受到颠覆的行业之一就是客户服务。”我们的反应是：“是的。”

Paul Adams: So we did.

保罗·亚当斯：我们就是这么做的。

We totally changed how we think, how we work, and we just went heads down and built a product called Fin.

我们完全改变了我们的思维方式和工作方式，我们只是埋头苦干，打造了一款名为 Fin 的产品。

We built other things first actually.

实际上我们首先构建了其他东西。

Fin came later, now that I think about it.

芬后来来了，现在我想起来了。

But we went all in on it.

但我们全力以赴。

It was a little bit of a bet the farm mindset.

这是农场心态的一点赌注。

So we've done it.

所以我们已经做到了。

I think other companies like Google and Bard have to do it, and maybe they're a little bit slow, but it's so early in this tech cycle that, I think, they're fine.

我认为谷歌和巴德等其他公司必须这样做，也许他们有点慢，但现在处于这个技术周期的早期，我认为他们很好。

So yeah, we did.

是的，我们做到了。

It was hard, but we had to do it.

这很难，但我们必须这么做。

Lenny: Can you share briefly what Finn is just for folks that aren't familiar?

Lenny：您能简单介绍一下 Finn 对于不熟悉的人来说是什么吗？

Paul Adams: Fin, first and foremost, is an AI chatbot.

Paul Adams：Fin 首先是一个人工智能聊天机器人。

So, if you think about customer service, people have questions for a business, and historically, that was mostly email, and phone, and mostly ticketing based.

因此，如果你考虑客户服务，人们会对企业有疑问，从历史上看，这主要是电子邮件、电话，而且主要是基于票务的。

You'd file a ticket, a lot of do not reply email, and so on.

你会提交一张票，很多不回复电子邮件，等等。

And then, came along conversational customer support, which is just basic messaging, like WhatsApp or iMessage, like I mentioned earlier.

然后，出现了对话式客户支持，这只是基本的消息传递，如 WhatsApp 或 iMessage，就像我之前提到的那样。

Now, there's bot first experiences and Fin is an AI chatbot, AI first, chatbot first.

现在，有了机器人优先体验，Fin 是一个人工智能聊天机器人，人工智能优先，聊天机器人优先。

So the first line of defense for a customer support team is Finn, not a person.

因此，客户支持团队的第一道防线是 Finn，而不是一个人。

And so, it fundamentally changes.

因此，它发生了根本性的变化。

The results we've seen with Fin are mind blowing.

我们在 Fin 上看到的结果令人震惊。

Our biggest challenge is actually trying to help customer support teams think about organizational change.

我们最大的挑战实际上是试图帮助客户支持团队考虑组织变革。

Paul Adams: The tech is way ahead.

Paul Adams：技术遥遥领先。

It's actually people wrapping their heads around what this means for the role, the teams, loads of cool stuff, like new types of jobs for people, like conversation designers, a job we have where you design the conversations that Fin does or managers.

事实上，人们都在思考这对这个角色、团队、很多很酷的东西意味着什么，比如人们的新型工作，比如对话设计师，我们有一个由 Fin 或经理设计对话的工作。

So anyway, that's what Fin is.

无论如何，Fin 就是这样。

Fin has expanded.

鳍扩大了。

So, Fin is now also in our Intercom inbox.

因此，Fin 现在也出现在我们的 Intercom 收件箱中。

They've placed a people answer queries, customers support queries, and now Fin's in there too, helping the support reps.

他们安排了专人回答查询、客户支持查询，现在 Fin 也在那里帮助支持代表。

Suggesting answers for them to use, or helping them rephrase things.

建议他们使用的答案，或帮助他们重新措辞。

So, it's now augmenting people as well as answering questions by itself.

因此，它现在正在增强人们的能力并自行回答问题。

Lenny: I think you're one of the few companies that has pivoted fully into AI.

Lenny：我认为你们是少数完全转向人工智能的公司之一。

And, I think there's a lot of lessons here about how team structures might change, product strategy, priorities, things like that.

而且，我认为这里有很多关于团队结构如何变化、产品策略、优先事项等的教训。

So I'm curious just to unpack a couple more things here.

所以我很好奇，想在这里解开更多的东西。

First of all, what impact have you seen after going all in and going in this direction?

首先，你全力以赴、朝这个方向走之后，看到了什么影响？

Paul Adams: It's very early, honestly, to be able to answer that properly.

保罗·亚当斯：老实说，现在能够正确回答这个问题还为时过早。

And it depends what you measure as success.

这取决于你衡量成功的标准。

So, again, there's a lot of hype and buzz with AI.

因此，人工智能再次受到了很多炒作和热议。

So, if you're measuring it by interest, it's a huge success.

所以，如果你用兴趣来衡量，那就是巨大的成功。

Our target customer is customer support.

我们的目标客户是客户支持。

Our customer support manager leader.

我们的客户支持经理领导者。

And so, they're very curious.

所以，他们很好奇。

They're like, "Does it actually work?" Again, back to the earlier thing of there's so much hype, there's a bit of skepticism around it.

他们会问，“这真的有效吗？”再次回到之前的事情，有如此多的炒作，但也存在一些怀疑。

"Does it actually work?

“真的有用吗？

Is it as good as a person?" And in customer support, people who tend to work in that role are typically very high empathy, care a lot about people.

和人一样好吗？”在客户支持方面，担任该职位的人通常具有很高的同理心，非常关心他人。

And so, they're like, "But is it as good as a person?

所以，他们会说，“但这和一个人一样好吗？

Is it nice, friendly?

是不是很友善、友善？

Does it understand humanity?" And so, a lot of curiosity, and a lot of interests, and a lot of people trying it.

它懂人性吗？”因此，有很多好奇心、很多兴趣、很多人都在尝试。

Paul Adams: We have some customers who are hugely successful with it.

Paul Adams：我们有一些客户在这方面取得了巨大成功。

They can answer up to 50, 60, 70% of their inbound questions with Fin.

他们可以使用 Fin 回答多达 50%、60%、70% 的入站问题。

So we've some customers who see huge success.

我们的一些客户取得了巨大的成功。

But it's early.

但现在还早。

And so, has it transformed our business financially?

那么，它是否在财务上改变了我们的业务？

Not yet.

还没有。

I think, all fast-growing startups...

我认为，所有快速成长的初创公司......

If you think of AI Intercom as, I guess, a new startup, even though we're 900 people, the growth curve, you're looking for this exponential curve, as opposed to big public company linear growth curve.

如果你认为 AI Intercom 是一家新的初创公司，即使我们有 900 名员工，那么你正在寻找的是指数曲线，而不是大型上市公司的线性增长曲线。

With the exponential one, it takes a while.

对于指数来说，需要一段时间。

The first year or two years is the bottom of that.

第一年或两年是最底部的。

And so, I think we're still in the trying to figure out exactly what's going on, trying to talk to educate people.

因此，我认为我们仍在试图弄清楚到底发生了什么，试图通过对话来教育人们。

But, we have enough evidence to believe it's the future for sure.

但是，我们有足够的证据相信这肯定是未来。

Lenny: Are there any examples of either this product or other instances of AI just blowing your mind where you're just like, "Wow, I never imagined it would be this good"?

莱尼：有没有任何例子可以证明这个产品或其他人工智能实例让你大吃一惊，让你觉得“哇，我从来没有想过它会这么好”？

Paul Adams: I go back to that before after thing.

保罗·亚当斯：我回顾一下之前的事情。

So, the first version of ChatGPT was a before, after, where we we've been working, like I said, in this space, we've had a machine learning team for a long time.

所以，ChatGPT 的第一个版本是我们一直在工作的前后版本，就像我说的，在这个领域，我们已经有一个机器学习团队很长时间了。

The way our machine learning thing worked before ChatGPT was that there was not a manual setup.

在 ChatGPT 之前，我们的机器学习工作方式是没有手动设置。

A customer support manager would have to orchestrate the bot, and teach it what to say, and just a lot of orchestration, a lot of teaching it.

客户支持经理必须编排机器人，并教它说什么，并且需要进行大量的编排和大量的教学。

And then, ChatGPT showed up and it's like, "Oh, it can do it by itself." It gets it wrong sometimes.

然后，ChatGPT 出现了，就像是，“哦，它可以自己做到这一点。”有时它会出错。

So, do people get the question wrong too?

那么，人们是否也把这个问题弄错了呢？

It's as good as a person nearly for a lot of these basic things.

在许多这些基本的事情上，它几乎和一个人一样好。

So that blew my mind.

这让我大吃一惊。

And then, that was, "Oh, it can answer questions." But then, you're like, it can reason.

然后，那就是，“哦，它可以回答问题。”但是，你会想，它可以推理。

Paul Adams: There's actually a debate about whether is this reasoning or deduction.

保罗·亚当斯：实际上，关于这是推理还是演绎存在争议。

But, it can work things out.

但是，它可以解决问题。

And, I'm not one for going down into these really philosophical things.

而且，我不是一个喜欢深入研究这些真正哲学问题的人。

I'm like, "We just need to build.

我想，“我们只需要建造。

Let's go back, build the product." Or whatever.

让我们回去构建产品。”或者无论如何。

But it can work things out.

但它可以解决问题。

And that blew my mind.

这让我大吃一惊。

And, we fed ChatGPT and other companies too, we played with other LLMs, like Entropik and so on, it can work things out.

而且，我们也为 ChatGPT 和其他公司提供了资金，我们与其他法学硕士合作，例如 Entropik 等，它可以解决问题。

And that was mind-blowing.

这真是令人兴奋。

Then you can see it doing things, like writing code.

然后你就可以看到它在做一些事情，比如编写代码。

And I was like, "Wow, it's really good at writing code.

我当时想，“哇，它真的很擅长编写代码。

What does that mean?" And then, you start thinking, here at Intercom we have a one to five ratio.

那是什么意思？”然后，你开始思考，在 Intercom，我们的比例是一比五。

So a PM has about five engineers on a team.

因此，PM 的团队中大约有 5 名工程师。

And you're looking at this thing writing code and you're like, "What happens next?

当你看着这个编写代码的东西时，你会想，“接下来会发生什么？

Do we need as many engineers or will their role change?

我们是否需要那么多工程师，或者他们的角色会发生变化吗？

And they'll start doing different types of things like reviewing code instead of writing code?"

他们会开始做不同类型的事情，比如审查代码而不是编写代码？”

Paul Adams: So that blew my mind.

保罗·亚当斯：这让我大吃一惊。

And then, the visual stuff, like I mentioned earlier, I think the visual thing was bigger than the original one.

然后，视觉的东西，就像我之前提到的，我认为视觉的东西比原来的东西更大。

It can parse imagery, and it can help you see the world.

它可以解析图像，可以帮助您了解世界。

You take a photo of your bike and say, "Hey, what's wrong?" And It'll tell you what's wrong, how to fix it.

你给你的自行车拍了一张照片，然后说：“嘿，怎么了？”它会告诉您出了什么问题以及如何解决。

You can be traveling, take photos of stuff.

你可以去旅行，拍一些东西的照片。

It's in a different language.

它是用不同的语言。

It's etched in stone on a 12th century cathedral.

它刻在一座 12 世纪大教堂的石头上。

You're like, "What does that say?" And it'll tell you what it says.

你会说，“那是什么意思？”它会告诉你它说了什么。

It's just like how to do that.

这就像如何做到这一点。

This is what I'm actually repeating most to people these days, here in Ireland, if you want to be a radiologist, so study X-rays and tell people what's wrong, and so on, and forth, it's seven years training to learn that skill.

这实际上是我这些天在爱尔兰对人们重复最多的一句话，如果你想成为一名放射科医生，那就研究 X 射线并告诉人们出了什么问题，等等，学习这项技能需要七年的训练。

So, seven years to be a radiologist, and then you're just into the job.

所以，当一名放射科医生需要七年时间，然后你才刚刚进入这份工作。

AI, it seems it's already better at it.

AI，看来它已经做得更好了。

So, it's already better at it, and it can ingest every X-ray ever made.

所以，它已经做得更好了，它可以吸收有史以来发出的每一张 X 射线。

No human can ever read, and think about, and synthesize every X-ray ever made.

没有人能够阅读、思考和合成每一张 X 射线。

Paul Adams: So, of course it's better.

保罗·亚当斯：所以，当然更好。

And then, you're like, "Okay, what happens now?" I guess, the whole job changes.

然后，你会想，“好吧，现在会发生什么？”我想，整个工作都会改变。

Radiologists will not take x-ray.

放射科医生不会进行 X 光检查。

Well, I guess they might take them.

好吧，我猜他们可能会拿走它们。

But, they won't analyze them, for sure.

但是，他们肯定不会分析它们。

They'll look at what AI says, check that it's right, and then it's bedside manner time.

他们会查看人工智能所说的内容，检查其是否正确，然后就到了临床礼仪时间。

Tell the patient, maybe tell them what course.

告诉病人，也许告诉他们什么疗程。

So the job just fundamentally changes.

所以这份工作发生了根本性的变化。

And by the way, that could be amazing.

顺便说一句，这可能会令人惊奇。

Here in Ireland, we have long queues for hospitals, epic waiting lists for people getting X-rays.

在爱尔兰，医院门口排着长队，接受 X 光检查的人的等候名单也很长。

So, this is a really good thing possibly for people.

所以，这对人们来说可能确实是一件好事。

Here's the craziest one I have.

这是我最疯狂的一个。

AI can listen to your voice and copy it, so it can say things and it sounds exactly like you and it's really, really good.

人工智能可以听你的声音并复制它，所以它可以说话，而且听起来和你一模一样，这真的非常好。

Almost in distinguishable.

几乎无法区分。

You're like, "That sounds like Paul." And so, I mentioned the Metaverse earlier.

你会说，“这听起来像保罗。”所以，我之前提到了元宇宙。

I don't know if you saw Zuck talks to Lex .

我不知道你是否看到扎克和莱克斯谈话。

See that?

看到了吗？

Paul Adams: So that was my first, "Oh." For people who haven't seen it, they met in the Metaverse, I think, or some virtual world.

保罗·亚当斯：这是我的第一个“哦”。对于那些没有见过它的人来说，我认为他们是在元宇宙或者某个虚拟世界中见过的。

Paul Adams: In a black room.

保罗·亚当斯：在一间黑屋子里。

Yeah.

是的。

And, the tech has come on so they can analyze your face and build a 3D model.

而且，技术已经出现，他们可以分析你的脸部并构建 3D 模型。

It's really good, really, really close.

真的很好，真的，真的很近。

So, you can imagine, that's going to get better.

所以，你可以想象，情况会变得更好。

Based on the trajectory of that technology, it's going to get better.

根据该技术的发展轨迹，它会变得更好。

And so, the voice thing and the face thing means both of those things are almost indistinguishable from a real person.

因此，声音和面孔意味着这两者几乎与真人没有区别。

And, AI will be able to ingest all the things people say and do.

而且，人工智能将能够吸收人们所说和所做的所有事情。

And, when people die, it'll be able to replicate that person.

而且，当人死后，它就能复制那个人。

And so, there's an afterlife, hey, your parent dies and you can still talk to them.

所以，有来世，嘿，你的父母去世了，你仍然可以和他们交谈。

And, that could be the weirdest thing.

而且，这可能是最奇怪的事情。

Maybe it's not good for people.

也许这对人们来说并不好。

I don't know.

我不知道。

But, that tech is just around the corner.

但是，这项技术指日可待。

And the AI can answer your questions, mind-blowing.

人工智能可以回答你的问题，令人兴奋。

It's mind-blowing.

真是令人兴奋。

Lenny: There's actually a Black Mirror episode with that same premise, where-

莱尼：实际上有一集《黑镜》也有同样的前提，其中——

Lenny: ...

莱尼：……

Yeah.

是的。

And I don't think it ended well.

而且我认为结局并不好。

Paul Adams: For sure.

保罗·亚当斯：当然。

For sure.

一定。

Yeah, I think, the and the voice translation thing is another one.

是的，我认为语音翻译是另一回事。

I can't remember.

我不记得了。

Maybe it's in Mission Impossible, where it can take a voice, translate it, and translate it in real-time.

也许在《碟中谍》中，它可以接收语音，进行翻译，然后进行实时翻译。

And this tech is, again, just here, where if I was a native Spanish speaker and couldn't speak English, you and I could still have this podcast.

再说一遍，这项技术就在这里，如果我的母语是西班牙语并且不会说英语，你和我仍然可以收听这个播客。

Your voice would be translated in Spanish in real-time for me.

你的声音将为我实时翻译成西班牙语。

It's, again, mind-blowing.

这再次令人兴奋。

Lenny: We're actually working on dubbing/translating podcast episodes, which is all done through AI, where it figures out what you're saying, makes it Spanish, and then also changes your lips to match.

莱尼：我们实际上正在研究播客剧集的配音/翻译，这一切都是通过人工智能完成的，它会弄清楚你在说什么，将其变成西班牙语，然后还会改变你的嘴唇以匹配。

And, we're trying to launch a couple of those.

而且，我们正在尝试推出其中的几个。

And that's actually very AI-based.

这实际上是非常基于人工智能的。

Yeah.

是的。

Paul Adams: That's cool.

保罗·亚当斯：那很酷。

That's really cool.

这真的很酷。

Lenny: You mentioned that your ENG team might change your thinking, because AI can make them much more efficient and work differently.

Lenny：您提到您的 ENG 团队可能会改变您的想法，因为人工智能可以使他们更加高效并以不同的方式工作。

I'm curious what you've seen actually change on your team, either using AI-ish tools, or just building AI products.

我很好奇你在你的团队中看到了什么实际变化，无论是使用人工智能工具，还是仅仅构建人工智能产品。

What do you think is most different?

你觉得最不一样的是什么？

And I'm curious from the perspective of a team that's trying to think about integrating AI and starting to lean into AI, what have you seen most change and should change?

我很好奇，从一个试图考虑整合人工智能并开始倾向于人工智能的团队的角度来看，你看到的最大变化和应该改变的是什么？

Paul Adams: Ultimately, you need really great machine learning engineers.

Paul Adams：最终，你需要真正优秀的机器学习工程师。

That's where it starts.

这就是事情开始的地方。

And if you don't have that, then you're going to find it hard to build truly, really, truly great things.

如果你没有这个，那么你会发现很难构建真正、真正、真正伟大的东西。

So, what OpenAI provide, and what Entropik provide, and Claude, they provide an amazing technology, but you got to build on top of it.

所以，OpenAI 提供的，Entropik 提供的，还有 Claude，他们提供了一项令人惊叹的技术，但你必须在此基础上进行构建。

If you really want something brilliant, you got to build on top of it.

如果你真的想要一些出色的东西，你就必须在它的基础上进行构建。

So, we adapted what they build for customer support.

因此，我们调整了他们为客户支持而构建的内容。

Maybe someday we need to go build our own LLM that's just for customer support.

也许有一天我们需要建立自己的法学硕士，只是为了客户支持。

Maybe.

或许。

I don't know where that will all go.

我不知道这一切会去哪里。

And maybe everyone will have their own LLM for every single business.

也许每个人都会为每个企业拥有自己的法学硕士。

I don't really know, to be honest.

说实话，我真的不知道。

Maybe these companies will provide specialized LLMs.

也许这些公司会提供专门的法学硕士。

But anyway, that's the first thing.

但无论如何，这是第一件事。

And, of course, these people are in high demand.

当然，这些人的需求量很大。

So, you need to invest in building out that function, I think.

因此，我认为您需要投资构建该功能。

Really invest in building out the function.

真正投资于构建该功能。

Paul Adams: So that's what we've been doing.

保罗·亚当斯：这就是我们一直在做的事情。

Our ML team's way bigger than it was and way bigger than it ever has been at Intercom.

我们的 ML 团队比以前规模大得多，而且比 Intercom 以往任何时候都规模大得多。

And then, it forks.

然后，它分叉。

So, some projects are very heavy on that ML team and it needs them.

因此，有些项目对于机器学习团队来说非常繁重，而且需要它们。

But other projects are more front end, like the inbox stuff I mentioned earlier, where we have Fin and Fin is working, we've built the underlying technology.

但其他项目更多的是前端，比如我之前提到的收件箱，我们有 Fin，Fin 正在工作，我们已经构建了底层技术。

Now it's a question of if you have a human support person answering questions in the inbox, that's a natural chat conversational interface, pretty straightforward.

现在的问题是，是否有人工支持人员回答收件箱中的问题，这是一个自然的聊天对话界面，非常简单。

What happens when there's now an AI assistant in there?

如果现在有了人工智能助手，会发生什么？

How do they talk?

他们怎样说话？

And what do they do?

他们做什么？

And when do they interject?

他们什么时候插嘴？

And how do you represent that in the user experience that feels natural?

您如何在感觉自然的用户体验中体现这一点？

So that's a really hard design problem.

所以这是一个非常困难的设计问题。

Paul Adams: So, saying back into like, okay, we've a product team that's a product manager, a product designer, maybe three, four, maybe five engineers, and they're getting help from the machine learning team.

Paul Adams：所以，我们有一个产品团队，其中包括一名产品经理、一名产品设计师，可能还有三名、四名、五名工程师，他们正在从机器学习团队那里获得帮助。

So, we now have both setups.

所以，我们现在有了这两种设置。

And increasingly, we can do more with the latter, more teams who can build on the foundational technology that we've been building over the last 12 months or so.

我们越来越多地可以与后者一起做更多的事情，更多的团队可以在我们过去 12 个月左右的时间里构建的基础技术的基础上进行构建。

So that's one thing.

所以这是一回事。

I think a second thing that comes to mind is not to think about it as bolted on.

我认为我想到的第二件事是不要将其视为螺栓固定的。

I think some people are still in that camp.

我认为有些人仍然在那个阵营中。

Paul Adams: Again, I'll go back to the mobile thing.

Paul Adams：我再次回到移动领域。

There's just so many direct parallels with it.

与之有很多直接的相似之处。

Like I said earlier, at Google, I worked in the mobile apps team.

正如我之前所说，在谷歌，我在移动应用团队工作。

I worked on mobile Gmail, mobile docs, and it was the mobile team.

我负责移动 Gmail、移动文档，这是移动团队。

And we were in London.

我们当时在伦敦。

We're like, "Hey, we're the mobile team in London." And meanwhile, over in Mountainview in California, no one cared.

我们就像，“嘿，我们是伦敦的移动团队。”与此同时，在加利福尼亚州山景城，没有人关心这一点。

It's was like, "You're 20 people.

就像是，“你们有 20 个人。

We're 200.

我们200了。

No one uses this stuff on a phone." And again, a lot of skepticism.

没有人在手机上使用这些东西。”再次，很多怀疑。

"No one's going to write docs on the phone.

“没有人会在电话上写文档。

Seriously?

认真的吗？

They're going to write a full document on a phone, are you crazy?" So, don't do that.

他们要在手机上写一份完整的文档，你疯了吗？”所以，不要这样做。

We're trying not to do that.

我们正在努力不这样做。

Don't bolt it on.

不要用螺栓固定它。

Don't be like, "Oh, we'll have a bunch of AI people..." And we do have some specialists.

不要说，“哦，我们会有一群人工智能人员......”我们确实有一些专家。

But generally speaking, we're trying to have everyone learn about it.

但总的来说，我们正在努力让每个人都了解它。

Lenny: Interesting.

莱尼：有趣。

So, I'm curious just specifically what that looks like, don't bolt it on.

所以，我只是特别好奇它是什么样子，不要把它固定住。

The idea there is don't just have a site team that's like, "They're the AI team.

这个想法不仅仅是拥有一个像“他们是人工智能团队”这样的现场团队。

They're going to add AI to all this stuff." You're finding and lesson is integrated into every product team.

他们将把人工智能添加到所有这些东西中。”您会发现每个产品团队都融入了经验教训。

Paul Adams: And we're still early there.

Paul Adams：我们还处于早期阶段。

We're still early.

我们还早。

So, what we're trying not to do is have the AI inbox team, and they're the only people who work on AI features in the inbox.

因此，我们试图不做的是让人工智能收件箱团队，他们是唯一在收件箱中研究人工智能功能的人。

I think it's much better to have everyone learn about it.

我认为让每个人都了解一下会更好。

By the way, I'm a big believer in generalists, a big, big believer in...

顺便说一句，我非常相信多面手，非常非常相信......

I guess, my background is jack of all trades master of none.

我想，我的出身是万事通，无才无才。

That's probably how I describe myself.

我大概就是这样形容自己的。

I've worked as a researcher, designer, PM.

我曾担任过研究员、设计师、PM。

And so, I believe in generalists, and so I believe in setting teams up that way.

所以，我相信通才，所以我相信以这种方式组建团队。

And, yes, specialists matters at times.

是的，专家有时很重要。

Machine learning for sure is a deep specialism.

机器学习无疑是一门深奥的专业。

And in Intercom, we generally, in engineering too, much prefer people who learn new things, whether it's a new coding language, or framework, or how to design AI interfaces, or whatever, get more people being able to do it.

在 Intercom 中，我们通常在工程领域也更喜欢学习新事物的人，无论是新的编码语言、框架，还是如何设计人工智能界面，或者其他什么，让更多的人能够做到这一点。

Lenny: I feel like, again, your company is a little bit of living in the future, where a lot of companies are going to get to once they realize, "Oh shit.

莱尼：我再次觉得，你们的公司有点生活在未来，很多公司一旦意识到，“哦，糟糕。

We really need to get big here." Or they're already working on it.

我们确实需要在这里做大。”或者他们已经在努力了。

I'm curious if there's other maybe pitfalls you ran into that you think people should try to avoid and something you could share there, or just any other lessons about making this transition that you think might be useful to other people.

我很好奇你是否遇到过其他你认为人们应该尽量避免的陷阱，以及你可以在那里分享的东西，或者你认为可能对其他人有用的关于实现这一转变的任何其他经验教训。

Paul Adams: Yeah, what I've mentioned so far, don't bolt it on.

保罗·亚当斯：是的，到目前为止我所提到的，不要把它固定下来。

Stay up-to-date.

保持最新状态。

I mentioned earlier, read, read.

我之前提到过，读书，读书。

I feel like I'm behind all the time.

我感觉自己一直落后了。

It's moving so fast.

它移动得如此之快。

Lenny: What are you reading?

莱尼：你在读什么？

What do you find is most interesting and informative for reading about what's happening in AI?

对于阅读人工智能领域的最新动态，您认为最有趣且信息最丰富的是什么？

Paul Adams: I'd love to tell you that it's incredibly structured.

Paul Adams：我很想告诉你，它的结构令人难以置信。

I have a great reading list that I got to read every Sunday morning.

我有一个很棒的阅读清单，每个周日早上我都必须阅读它。

It's pretty random.

这是相当随机的。

I'm on Twitter, which is now called X, of course, a lot.

我经常使用 Twitter，现在它被称为 X。

I follow some people on Twitter.

我在 Twitter 上关注了一些人。

I actually use the recommended feed in Twitter a lot.

事实上，我经常使用 Twitter 中的推荐源。

I think, because I interact and look at a lot of AI, I get to see a lot more.

我认为，因为我互动并观察了很多人工智能，所以我能看到更多。

So I do that and I do it deliberately to try and generate more stuff.

所以我这样做，并且是故意这样做，以尝试产生更多的东西。

I'll search Twitter as well.

我也会搜索 Twitter。

There's loads of cool stuff there.

那里有很多很酷的东西。

There's some newsletters as well and some people I follow.

还有一些时事通讯和我关注的一些人。

Lenny: Any newsletters you could call out that you think are most interesting?

莱尼：有什么你认为最有趣的时事通讯吗？

Paul Adams: Yeah, Matt Rickard is one guy who talks a lot about AI.

Paul Adams：是的，Matt Rickard 是一个经常谈论人工智能的人。

The blogs of companies too.

公司的博客也是如此。

OpenAI have a pretty good blog, and they write papers, and summarize them.

OpenAI 有一个非常好的博客，他们写论文并进行总结。

Lenny: Cool.

莱尼：酷。

If there's any other ones you think of, either people on Twitter to follow or newsletters, email me after, and then we'll add them to the show notes.

如果您还有其他想法，无论是 Twitter 上要关注的人还是时事通讯，请在之后给我发电子邮件，然后我们会将它们添加到节目笔记中。

Paul Adams: Yeah, perfect.

保罗·亚当斯：是的，完美。

Yeah, yeah, there definitely is.

是的，是的，肯定有。

I'll dig them out.

我会把它们挖出来。

Your question earlier, how do you do it?

你之前的问题，你是如何做到的？

You just try.

你只要尝试一下。

Try book out half an hour and just go deep for half an hour, and then bookmark a few things, come back to them.

尝试预订半小时，然后深入半小时，然后为一些事情添加书签，然后再回来看它们。

Like everyone, you could be so busy, so many distractions, you just got to have to set aside time.

像每个人一样，您可能会很忙，有很多干扰，您必须留出时间。

Lenny: Are there any other tools or apps that you find really helpful?

Lenny：您认为还有其他真正有用的工具或应用程序吗？

Sounds like ChatGPT is at the center of how you play around with it.

听起来 ChatGPT 是您使用它的核心。

Is there anything else that you find really interesting?

还有其他您觉得真正有趣的事情吗？

Paul Adams: I'll try other things like Bard.

Paul Adams：我会尝试其他的东西，比如巴德。

For example, Bard is Google's AI search engine.

例如，Bard是Google的AI搜索引擎。

Rewind is another fascinating company.

Rewind 是另一家令人着迷的公司。

I think it's rewind.ai.

我认为是re​​wind.ai。

Rewind is basically augmented AI for your memory.

倒带基本上是增强你的记忆力的人工智能。

So, install it on your local machine, and it captures everything, and remembers everything.

因此，将其安装在本地计算机上，它会捕获所有内容并记住所有内容。

It's all local, so there's no privacy issues.

都是本地的，所以不存在隐私问题。

And, you got to try these things to understand whether it's any good, or useful, or where's the boundaries, and how does it work, and so on.

而且，你必须尝试这些事情来了解它是否有好处或有用，或者界限在哪里，以及它是如何工作的，等等。

So, I'm a believer in that type of thing.

所以，我相信这类事情。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by HelpBar by Chameleon, the free in-app universal search solution built for SaaS.

Lenny：本集由 Chameleon 的 HelpBar 为您带来，Chameleon 是为 SaaS 构建的免费应用内通用搜索解决方案。

Your help content lives outside your app and is scattered in many places forcing users to waste time hunting for answers.

您的帮助内容位于应用程序之外，并且分散在许多地方，迫使用户浪费时间寻找答案。

HelpBar solves this, it delivers answers directly inside your app and eliminates context switching.

HelpBar 解决了这个问题，它直接在应用程序内提供答案并消除了上下文切换。

Users can search or ask questions to get AI generated answers and lists of the most relevant documentation from all of your help sources, including your knowledge base, docs, blog, and video libraries.

用户可以搜索或提出问题，以从您的所有帮助来源（包括您的知识库、文档、博客和视频库）获取 AI 生成的答案和最相关文档的列表。

You can also use HelpBar to navigate your app and launch actions, such as scheduling a meeting or viewing an interactive demo.

您还可以使用 HelpBar 导航应用程序并启动操作，例如安排会议或查看交互式演示。

Lenny: The best products today use Command K for in-app search and navigation.

Lenny：当今最好的产品使用 Command K 进行应用内搜索和导航。

HelpBar makes that readily available within your app without engineering or new code.

HelpBar 可以在您的应用程序中轻松使用，无需工程或新代码。

Give users a faster and more delightful self-serve experience that reduces friction and increases in-app engagement.

为用户提供更快、更愉快的自助服务体验，减少摩擦并提高应用内参与度。

Upgrade your user experience with this modern component and supercharge your product-LED motion.

利用这款现代组件升级您的用户体验，并增强您的产品 LED 运动。

Sign up for HelpBar today.

立即注册 HelpBar。

It's free and easy to set up in minutes.

它免费且易于在几分钟内完成设置。

Check it out at helpbar.ai/lenny, that's helpbar.ai/lenny.

请访问 helpbar.ai/lenny 进行查看，即 helpbar.ai/lenny。

When you started rolling out AI and leaning into this direction, did you run into any big challenges or hurdles organizationally, or personal interests, or opinions?

当您开始推出人工智能并倾向于这个方向时，您在组织、个人兴趣或观点方面是否遇到过任何重大挑战或障碍？

I don't know.

我不知道。

Is there anything you ran into that was a big stumbling block and something you had to get over?

有没有什么事情是你遇到的一个大绊脚石并且必须克服的？

Paul Adams: Yeah, Intercom is full of diverse opinions about things.

Paul Adams：是的，Intercom 对事物充满了不同的看法。

And, I think with AI, I'm all in.

而且，我认为对于人工智能，我全力以赴。

I'm leaning forward.

我身体前倾。

The media is coming.

媒体来了。

I'm sold.

我被卖了。

I'm way past that point.

我已经过了那个阶段了。

Also, no one knows.

而且，没有人知道。

No one knows.

没有人知道。

And so, a lot of the time, when we talk internally, the strong buy-in from Eoghan, our co-founder and CEO, Des co-founder, like me, like a lot of the senior leadership team we're in all in camp.

因此，很多时候，当我们进行内部讨论时，我们的联合创始人兼首席执行官、Des 联合创始人 Eoghan 和我以及我们所在阵营的许多高级领导团队都给予了强烈支持。

And so, that helps a lot.

所以，这很有帮助。

Of course, if you're senior leadership team in the company are all in, of course, then it trickles down.

当然，如果你公司的高层领导团队都在的话，那当然是滴滴下来了。

But equally, some of the hurdles have been like, "Why are you all in?" And I'm like, "An educated guess.

但同样，一些障碍就像“你们为什么都参与其中？”我想，“一个有根据的猜测。

A hunch."

一种预感。”

Paul Adams: The part of business strategy and product strategy that, it's just hard.

保罗·亚当斯：商业战略和产品战略的一部分，这很难。

It's like taste.

就像味道一样。

People talk about product taste, "Who has product taste?" And a lot of it is, it's judgment based on experience.

人们谈论产品品味，“谁有产品品味？”很多都是基于经验的判断。

That's all I can say.

我只能说这么多。

I don't know.

我不知道。

For me, personally, I don't know, I lived through the mobile thing pretty closely, having worked at Google on mobile.

就我个人而言，我不知道，我曾在谷歌的移动部门工作过，非常密切地经历过移动领域的事情。

I lived through that phase.

我经历过那个阶段。

So, I can see the same type of thing happening now with bigger.

所以，我可以看到同样类型的事情现在发生在更大的事情上。

So I'm using that experience to go all in.

所以我利用这些经验全力以赴。

Paul Adams: But it's a challenge for some people, because they don't have that context, or they disagree with it.

保罗·亚当斯：但这对某些人来说是一个挑战，因为他们没有这样的背景，或者他们不同意。

We have a lot of debate here about the future.

我们在这里对未来有很多争论。

Fergal, I mentioned earlier, gave myself and a few other product leaders and Des he gave us a...

我之前提到过，Fergal 给了我自己和其他一些产品负责人，而 Des 给了我们一个……

I don't know, is it a pitch or what?

不知道是炒作还是什么？

A play?

一场戏？

I don't know, about how maybe all of our roadmap with AI is wrong.

我不知道为什么我们所有的人工智能路线图都是错误的。

I don't know if you are familiar with the Horizons framework of Horizon 1, 2, and 3.

不知道大家是否熟悉Horizon 1、2、3的Horizons框架。

Paul Adams: Yeah.

保罗·亚当斯：是的。

So, Horizon 1 is the medium short to medium term, next 12 months, 12 to 18 months.

所以，地平线 1 是中短期到中期，接下来的 12 个月、12 到 18 个月。

Horizon 2 being like, "Hey, what's happening?" Whatever, 18 to 36 months out.

《地平线 2》就像是，“嘿，发生了什么事？”不管怎样，18到36个月就可以了。

Or, I think, people use different timeframes, different Horizons.

或者，我认为，人们使用不同的时间框架、不同的视野。

Anyway.

反正。

We're in Horizon 1 land.

我们位于地平线 1 土地。

We're like, "Yeah, and the next year we're going to do this." And he's like, "Yeah, but two years from now, if this path plays out, everything we're doing now is going to be irrelevant and useless." And you're like, "Oh, okay." And so, those discussions happen.

我们会说，“是的，明年我们就会这么做。”他说，“是的，但是两年后，如果这条路继续下去，我们现在所做的一切都将变得无关紧要且毫无用处。”你会说，“哦，好吧。”因此，这些讨论就发生了。

And, the level of ambiguity is off the charts.

而且，模糊程度是超乎寻常的。

So, a lot of the challenges have been navigating that ambiguity and helping people get the conviction I have without drying out voices of alternative voices and opinions, which are often valid too.

因此，许多挑战都在于如何克服这种模糊性，并帮助人们获得我所拥有的信念，同时又不让其他声音和观点枯竭，而这些声音和观点通常也是有效的。

Lenny: What does help people get that conviction?

莱尼：什么可以帮助人们获得这种信念？

Is it just showing them examples of, "Here's something." "Wow, look at this thing.

它只是向他们展示“这是一些东西”的例子吗？ “哇哦，看看这个东西。

This is unreal." And, I think, partly what helps, I imagine, is the market you're in seems like such a clear opportunity for AI, feels like an easier pitch than maybe a lot of other markets.

这是不真实的。”而且，我认为，部分有帮助的是，我想，你所在的市场对于人工智能来说似乎是一个明显的机会，感觉比许多其他市场更容易推销。

Paul Adams: Yeah, that's true.

保罗·亚当斯：是的，确实如此。

For sure.

一定。

That's true.

这是真的。

Yeah, showing people is definitely the easiest way.

是的，向人们展示绝对是最简单的方法。

I think customer support is definitely...

我认为客户支持绝对是...

Like I said, , number one, customer support.

就像我说的，第一，客户支持。

So you're like, "Okay, I guess we should adapt." Adapt or die is our mantra.

所以你会说，“好吧，我想我们应该适应。”适应或死亡是我们的座右铭。

Adapt or die.

适应或死亡。

I think that there are other industries where they're on the same journey, it's just not as obvious.

我认为还有其他行业也在经历同样的历程，只是不那么明显。

So for example, reporting software, Tableau or any reporting product, how do they work?

例如，报告软件、Tableau 或任何报告产品，它们是如何工作的？

Well, they're the typical read, write app, build dashboards, filtering, querying, hardcore querying, query database, get some numbers, show it in a UI.

嗯，它们是典型的读取、写入应用程序、构建仪表板、过滤、查询、核心查询、查询数据库、获取一些数字、在 UI 中显示它。

A lot of thought and care goes into how you present that data to people.

如何向人们呈现这些数据需要花费很多心思和精力。

The different types of charts that are appropriate help people make good decisions ultimately.

合适的不同类型的图表可以帮助人们最终做出正确的决策。

Paul Adams: I think, again, this is hand wave, who knows.

保罗·亚当斯：我想，这又是挥手，谁知道呢。

Maybe that's all done dead now.

也许现在一切都已经死了。

And, the reporting product of the future is just a box, and the box just goes to the database, and the box is just, "Who was our best salesman last year January?

而且，未来的报告产品只是一个盒子，这个盒子只是进入数据库，盒子只是，“谁是去年一月我们最好的推销员？

Okay.

好的。

Who was our top performing representative in January?

谁是我们一月份表现最好的代表？

Lenny." The report product to the future might look like that.

莱尼。”未来的报告产品可能看起来像这样。

And so, project management tools is another one.

因此，项目管理工具是另一种工具。

There's a bunch of products that I think are just outside the most obvious customer support one.

我认为有很多产品不属于最明显的客户支持产品。

And yet, equally ripe for a newcomer to come with a completely different paradigm and potentially take over.

然而，对于一个新来者来说，拥有完全不同的范式并有可能接管的时机同样成熟。

Lenny: I like that this connects back to your very first point about trying to think about where AI integrates is.

莱尼：我喜欢这与你试图思考人工智能集成在哪里的第一点有关。

Think about what problem are you solving as a company.

想想你作为一家公司正在解决什么问题。

For example, Tableau, helping people visualize data.

例如，Tableau，帮助人们可视化数据。

And then, the question is, can AI just do this for you?

然后，问题是，人工智能可以为你做这件事吗？

And in that case, oh, and maybe you can.

在这种情况下，哦，也许你可以。

And that gives you basically a whole strategy of like, "Okay, how do we actually do that with AI?"

这基本上给了你一个完整的策略，比如“好吧，我们如何用人工智能来做到这一点？”

Paul Adams: Yeah.

保罗·亚当斯：是的。

And, I don't know if the reporting thing will play out that way.

而且，我不知道报道的事情是否会以这种方式进行。

But, if you're a Tableau type company, you've tons of designers who design dashboards, and filters, and querying type workflow.

但是，如果您是一家 Tableau 类型的公司，那么您拥有大量设计仪表板、筛选器和查询类型工作流程的设计师。

What do they do?

他们做什么？

The UI is the box.

UI 是一个盒子。

So, it's really hard to get into your head like, "We must..." If you have conviction that we must change really hard.

所以，如果你坚信我们必须非常努力地改变，那么你就很难说“我们必须……”。

Lenny: Maybe one last question here.

莱尼：也许还有最后一个问题。

For team members learning and starting to work within this realm, is there anything you find helpful to get them ramped up, other than the advice you've already shared, which is just read a lot of stuff, watch Twitter/X, subscribe to these newsletters, and then just try it?

对于正在这个领域学习和开始工作的团队成员来说，除了您已经分享的建议（即阅读大量内容、观看 Twitter/X、订阅这些时事通讯，然后尝试一下）之外，您认为还有什么可以帮助他们提高水平吗？

Paul Adams: I also try and read things that say it's all a load of crap.

保罗·亚当斯：我也尝试阅读一些说这都是废话的东西。

So, it's very easy...

所以，这很容易...

I've been guilty of this many times.

我曾多次为此感到内疚。

Back to the mistakes you've made.

回到你所犯的错误。

I've been guilty of this many times, where I've jumped on a bandwagon and it was all wrong.

我曾多次为此感到内疚，我随波逐流，但一切都是错误的。

And the older I get...

而且我年纪越大...

The Web3 thing, I'm like, "I don't even know what Web3 is." Crypto, I never bought crypto.

对于 Web3 的事情，我想，“我什至不知道 Web3 是什么。”加密货币，我从未购买过加密货币。

Maybe I'm wrong about that.

也许我错了。

But, I'm not a bandwagon jumper.

但是，我不是一个追赶潮流的人。

But, maybe might've been when I was earlier.

但是，也许是我早些时候的时候。

And I try these days to read the alternative opinion.

这些天我尝试阅读替代意见。

People who are skeptical or think it's bad.

持怀疑态度或认为这不好的人。

A lot of people think this is terrible for humanity.

很多人认为这对人类来说是可怕的。

This technology is going to eat us alive.

这项技术将会把我们活活吃掉。

So, I try and balance my optimism.

所以，我尝试平衡我的乐观情绪。

I'm a delusively optimistic thinker, so I try and balance that with a negativity, I guess.

我是一个过于乐观的思想家，所以我想我会尝试用消极情绪来平衡这一点。

Lenny: Is there anything else in this realm that you think might be useful to share before we shift to a different topic?

莱尼：在我们转向不同的主题之前，您认为在这个领域还有什么可以分享的吗？

Paul Adams: Oh, yeah.

保罗·亚当斯：哦，是的。

The other thing is, don't be afraid.

另一件事是，不要害怕。

I think people are a bit afraid of it.

我认为人们有点害怕它。

And, for example, if I started walking around our office here saying, "Hey, I think we need two engineers per team going forward." That's probably not really a good idea to do that.

举例来说，如果我开始在我们的办公室里走来走去，说：“嘿，我认为我们每个团队未来需要两名工程师。”这样做可能不是一个好主意。

And I think in reality that's not going to be how it plays out.

我认为实际上事情不会是这样的。

I just feel like there's loads of great studies over the years about how people don't end up losing jobs, the jobs get moved around.

我只是觉得多年来有大量关于人们如何不最终失业、工作如何流动的伟大研究。

And also, for customer support, for example, it's a high attrition job.

而且，例如，对于客户支持来说，这是一项高流失率的工作。

So, people saying, "Hey, everyone's going to lose their job.

所以，人们说：“嘿，每个人都会失业。

A bot's going to take over." It's like, maybe some of that will happen.

机器人将接管一切。”就像，也许其中一些会发生。

But probably to attrition, as in someone quit and just didn't get back-filled.

但可能会导致人员流失，比如有人辞职了却没有得到补充。

So, the doomsday scenarios that I don't think would play out as much.

所以，我认为世界末日的场景不会发生太多。

But, for sure, it's easy to be afraid of it.

但可以肯定的是，人们很容易害怕它。

And, I think you have to lean into it.

而且，我认为你必须倾向于它。

Lenny: I love that.

莱尼：我喜欢这个。

Okay, I want to chat about frameworks.

好吧，我想谈谈框架。

You have a lot of interesting frameworks you've put out there.

你们已经推出了很多有趣的框架。

So, maybe we do a rapid fire through a number of frameworks that you've worked with and find useful.

因此，也许我们会快速浏览一些您使用过并发现有用的框架。

And, you actually mentioned this before and after, which I hadn't heard about.

而且，你实际上前后都提到过这一点，我没有听说过。

What's the general idea to that concept?

这个概念的总体思路是什么？

Paul Adams: Before, after is literally that simple, I think.

保罗·亚当斯：我认为之前、之后就是这么简单。

We've a rebrand at the moment happening, and that'll be a before, after moment.

我们目前正在进行品牌重塑，这将是一个前后的时刻。

We're redesigning our pricing.

我们正在重新设计我们的定价。

And then, the day that pricing goes live, that would be a before, after, because nothing's the same.

然后，定价生效的那一天，将是之前和之后，因为没有什么是相同的。

And so, we need to go back out and talk to people again.

因此，我们需要回去再次与人们交谈。

I'm a big believer in talking.

我非常相信谈话。

You got to talk to customers, it's the only way.

你必须与客户交谈，这是唯一的方法。

You've got to talk, talk, talk, learn, learn, learn.

你必须说话，说话，说话，学习，学习，学习。

Don't take with the safe face value, go deeper.

不要只看表面上的安全，要深入了解。

And so, a lot of these before, after moments, once you've passed, yeah, into the after you got to start learning, "Were we right?

所以，在之前、之后的时刻，一旦你过去了，是的，进入之后你就必须开始学习，“我们是对的吗？

Were we wrong?

我们错了吗？

What happened?

发生了什么事？

What do people think?"

人们怎么想？”

Lenny: Can you talk more about this pricing learning/mistake you shared?

莱尼：您能更多地谈谈您分享的定价学习/错误吗？

What do you think you did wrong?

你认为你做错了什么？

What happened there?

那里发生了什么？

Paul Adams: We had a principle called align price to value.

Paul Adams：我们有一个原则，叫价格与价值一致。

By the way, I think, pricing is incredibly difficult.

顺便说一句，我认为定价非常困难。

A lot of the design team who work in pricing here, I say to them, it's one of the hardest design problems I know.

我对很多在这里从事定价工作的设计团队成员说，这是我所知道的最难的设计问题之一。

I think onboarding is another one.

我认为入职是另一回事。

Onboarding people into a product is also.

让人们进入产品也是如此。

People are like, "Oh hey, you just design a few steps and it's pretty easy.

人们会说，“哦嘿，你只需设计几个步骤，就很简单了。

People will follow the steps." Again, deceptively difficult to design great onboarding.

人们将遵循这些步骤。”同样，设计出色的入职培训看似困难。

Paul Adams: So, I think pricing is deceptively difficult.

Paul Adams：所以，我认为定价看似困难。

But we had a principle around allowing price to value.

但我们有一个关于让价格有价值的原则。

People should pay based on the amount of value they get in the product, easy to say and incredibly hard to do.

人们应该根据他们从产品中获得的价值来付费，说起来容易做起来非常困难。

Value is subjective.

价值是主观的。

The price, for some person they get 10 units of value.

价格，对于某些人来说，他们可以获得 10 个单位的价值。

I think that's about $5.

我想大约是 5 美元。

Someone else is like, "I'd pay $5,000 for those 10 units of value." So, the biggest mistake was a lot of mistakes compounded.

其他人会说，“我愿意为这 10 个价值单位支付 5,000 美元。”所以，最大的错误是很多错误的复合。

And, this is an area where I think we were risk averse.

而且，我认为这是我们规避风险的领域。

We've ended up with too many pricing models.

我们最终得到了太多的定价模型。

We've built on top of old competitive mistakes.

我们是在过去的竞争错误的基础上发展起来的。

And, it took a brave decision to say, "We're going to start again."

而且，我们做出了一个勇敢的决定：“我们要重新开始。”

Lenny: Wow, this feels like it could be a solo episode, just talking through your pricing lessons and journey.

莱尼：哇，感觉这可能是一个单独的剧集，只是谈论您的定价课程和旅程。

Maybe just is there a nugget of wisdom you could share for someone that's trying to think about pricing right now based on your experience?

也许您可以向那些正在根据您的经验考虑定价的人分享一些宝贵的智慧？

Paul Adams: Number one thing I would say is keep it simple.

Paul Adams：我想说的第一件事是保持简单。

Keep it simple.

保持简单。

It's so tempting to...

真是太诱人了...

With us, for example, a lot of SaaS products have add-ons, where you're like, "Hey, we built X and that's 10 bucks." Or 100,000, depends on what product you're selling.

例如，对于我们来说，很多 SaaS 产品都有附加组件，你会说，“嘿，我们构建了 X，那是 10 美元。”或者 100,000，取决于您销售的产品。

"We built X and that's the price of X.

“我们建造了 X，这就是 X 的价格。

Hey, we've just built Y.

嘿，我们刚刚构建了 Y。

Y is awesome and it's a new thing you can do, and it unlocks all these new capabilities.

Y 太棒了，这是您可以做的新事情，它解锁了所有这些新功能。

People shouldn't get that for free, because it's a new thing that didn't have.

人们不应该免费获得它，因为这是一个没有的新事物。

So let's charge more for Y, but that doesn't really work with the other...

因此，我们对 Y 收取更多费用，但这对其他人来说并不起作用......

Okay, let's look at an add-on.

好吧，让我们看一下附加组件。

Oh yeah, cool.

哦，是的，酷。

People just add on." But then, later, now you've got people who have the add-on, and people who don't, and then you're like, "Add another thing." And so, we've added tiers, with products, tears, add-ons, tearing in the add-on.

人们只是添加。”但后来，现在有人拥有该附加组件，有人没有，然后你就会说，“添加另一件事。”因此，我们添加了层级，包括产品、眼泪、附加组件、附加组件中的撕裂。

Oh my god.

我的天啊。

People can't understand their bill.

人们无法理解他们的账单。

So, my advice is keep it simple.

所以，我的建议是保持简单。

Fight so hard to resist the temptation to add extra ways in which you price.

努力抵制添加额外定价方式的诱惑。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

I didn't think about going into this topic, but I'm glad that we touched on it.

我没想过要讨论这个话题，但我很高兴我们谈到了它。

Paul Adams: Think I was talking about scars for life earlier.

保罗·亚当斯：我想我之前谈论的是生活中的伤疤。

That's another scar for life.

那是人生的又一个伤痕。

Lenny: All right.

莱尼：好吧。

Let's keep talking about some frameworks.

我们继续讨论一些框架。

Another that I found that I loved is something that you call differentiation versus table stakes.

我发现我喜欢的另一个是你所说的差异化与赌注。

What's that about?

那是关于什么的？

Paul Adams: It's like the Kano model, if you're familiar with that.

Paul Adams：如果您熟悉的话，这就像卡诺模型。

But, it's very simple.

但是，这很简单。

I guess, we took the Kano model and just tried to make this really crazy simple version of it.

我想，我们采用了卡诺模型，只是尝试制作这个非常疯狂的简单版本。

Again, I'm a little bit allergic to things like this.

再说一次，我对这样的东西有点过敏。

I even hate myself for bringing up the Kano model.

我什至讨厌自己提出卡诺模型。

I'm allergic to people over intellectualizing frameworks.

我对人们对智能化框架过敏。

And like, "Oh, well if you've seen the new different law..." Of whatever.

就像，“哦，好吧，如果你看过新的不同法律……”之类的。

I'm like, "Keep things simple, practical, and pragmatic.

我的想法是，“让事情简单、实用、务实。

And then, let's all, again, go back to work and start building the product, so that customers can benefit, because that's actually all that matters." And so, difference versus table stakes, very simple.

然后，让我们再次回去工作并开始构建产品，以便客户能够受益，因为这实际上才是最重要的。”因此，与赌注的区别非常简单。

I think people who adopt a product, or buy a product, or switch to a product, there's two driving forces.

我认为人们采用一种产品，或者购买一种产品，或者转向一种产品，有两个驱动力。

One is the attraction of the new solution, and that's basically differentiation.

一是新解决方案的吸引力，这基本上就是差异化。

So what's different and better?

那么有什么不同和更好的呢？

But critically, what's different and better in ways that customers care about?

但关键的是，客户关心的方面有什么不同和更好的地方？

Paul Adams: Again, back to all the failed projects, my lesson for a lot of these was, we were different and better in these Google projects in ways people didn't care about.

Paul Adams：再说一遍，回到所有失败的项目，我从其中很多项目中学到的教训是，我们在这些 Google 项目中以人们不关心的方式与众不同，并且做得更好。

All sorts of Google projects, like Google Wave was an amazingly innovative product that no one really cared about.

各种各样的 Google 项目，比如 Google Wave，都是一款令人惊叹的创新产品，但没有人真正关心。

So, be different and better in ways people care about.

因此，在人们关心的方面表现得与众不同、更好。

So that's the attraction that's like, "Oh, I want to check out that.

这就是吸引力，就像“哦，我想看看那个。

That looks cool.

看起来很酷。

I want to check that out.

我想检查一下。

That looks better than what I have today." But, on the other side, there's a entry requirement or table stakes.

这看起来比我今天的要好。”但是，另一方面，也有进入要求或赌注。

To play the game, you got to have a certain amount of things.

要玩游戏，你必须拥有一定数量的东西。

And so, they're table stake features.

因此，它们是赌注功能。

They're often very boring.

他们常常很无聊。

They're real basic stuff, boring stuff, and easy to ignore, and easy to not build.

它们是真正的基本东西，无聊的东西，很容易被忽视，也很容易不构建。

Paul Adams: And again, a mistake with Intercom maybe over the years is that we were much more attracted to the differentiation and built a lot of that.

保罗·亚当斯：再说一遍，多年来对讲机的一个错误可能是我们更被差异化所吸引，并建立了很多差异化。

So we went through different iterations of our roadmap, sometimes changing over the course of a year or two, where we were all the differentiation to realize that everyone loved it and really wanted to buy, but they couldn't, because we didn't have the basic report that they needed or we didn't have the basic permission feature that they needed.

因此，我们对路线图进行了不同的迭代，有时会在一两年内发生变化，我们所有的差异化都意识到每个人都喜欢它并且真的想购买，但他们不能，因为我们没有他们需要的基本报告，或者我们没有他们需要的基本权限功能。

And then, the robot is built based on those...

然后，机器人是基于这些构建的......

Trading off why do we need more differentiation or trading off why do we need to invest more table stakes?

权衡为什么我们需要更多的差异化或权衡为什么我们需要投资更多的赌注？

And so, these days, the basic Intercom today is we're 50/50 probably in terms of resources, but it has swung 70/30 in both directions at times.

所以，现在，基本的对讲机在资源方面可能是 50/50，但有时它会在两个方向上摇摆 70/30。

Paul Adams: The last piece about it is, I think it's really powerful to look at a roadmap or look at a proposed roadmap and ask yourself, which of these do things matters more to us, not to us actually to our customers right now?

Paul Adams：最后一点是，我认为查看路线图或拟议的路线图并问自己，哪一件事情对我们更重要，而不是对我们现在对我们的客户更重要？

The other thing that we've talked a lot about here internally is if you're a startup and you're entering any established category, customer support for us, big established category, massive, a lot of table stakes, built up over years, decades.

我们在内部讨论的另一件事是，如果你是一家初创公司，并且你正在进入任何既定的类别，对我们的客户支持，大的既定类别，巨大的，大量的赌注，是经过多年、几十年建立起来的。

ServiceNow, Service Cloud, Salesforce, Zendesk, decades of table stake feature building.

ServiceNow、Service Cloud、Salesforce、Zendesk，数十年的赌注功能构建。

So to play the game, you need a lot of the table stakes, unless you have incredible differentiation.

因此，要玩这个游戏，你需要大量的赌注，除非你有令人难以置信的差异化。

So from the early years of Intercom, people just buy us alongside Service Cloud or Zendesk.

因此，从 Intercom 成立之初，人们就将我们与 Service Cloud 或 Zendesk 一起购买。

They just buy us alongside.

他们只是把我们买下来。

They're like, "This Intercom thing..." We were like first modern messaging and modern UX.

他们就像，“这个对讲机的东西......”我们就像第一个现代消息传递和现代用户体验。

They were like, "We want that for our customers, alongside the big giant bag of table stakes." Because Intercom doesn't have any of those.

他们说，“我们希望为我们的客户提供这一点，以及一大袋赌注。”因为 Intercom 没有这些。

Paul Adams: Then over the years, we've built the table stakes to a point where, okay, now we can fully play the game and people can switch, so they can swap Zendesk for Intercom.

Paul Adams：多年来，我们已经建立了一定的赌注，现在我们可以完全玩游戏，人们可以切换，这样他们就可以将 Zendesk 换成 Intercom。

But it took us years to get there.

但我们花了很多年才到达那里。

And then hence, if you're a startup, you need to invest a lot more in differentiation.

因此，如果你是一家初创公司，你需要在差异化方面投入更多资金。

And then, over the years, I think you start to balance the books a bit.

然后，多年来，我认为你开始稍微平衡收支。

Lenny: I think what's interesting about this is one, it just gives you a way to think about looking at your roadmap.

Lenny：我认为这一点的有趣之处在于，它只是为您提供了一种思考路线图的方法。

How much are we actually doing?

我们实际上做了多少？

And are we doing too much table stakes?

我们是否赌注太多了？

Are we doing too much differentiation?

我们是否做了太多的差异化？

So it gives you a awareness of what's happening.

因此，它可以让您了解正在发生的事情。

And I think, it's an interesting strategy as a startup like, "Do we spend years doing table stakes and then launch?

我认为，作为一家初创公司，这是一个有趣的策略，比如“我们是否要花数年时间进行赌注，然后再推出？

Or is it go the way Intercom went, like differentiate first we'll build everything else later?" Wonder when it makes sense to go one or the other.

还是会像 Intercom 那样，先实现差异化，然后再构建其他所有内容？”想知道什么时候选择其中之一才有意义。

Paul Adams: Yeah.

保罗·亚当斯：是的。

And it probably depends on the market, different categories, and all sorts of things.

这可能取决于市场、不同的类别和各种各样的因素。

Yeah.

是的。

Lenny: Yeah.

莱尼：是的。

Awesome.

惊人的。

Okay.

好的。

The next framework is something that you call swinging the pendulum.

下一个框架就是所谓的“摆动钟摆”。

What is that about?

那是关于什么的？

Paul Adams: I actually mentioned an example a bit earlier.

保罗·亚当斯：实际上我之前提到过一个例子。

Differentiation in table stakes was swinging the pendulum.

赌注的差异化正在摇摆。

So, swinging the pendulum means, you take a step back from everyday work life, and you make the observation that something's in an undesirable state.

因此，摆动钟摆意味着，您从日常工作生活中后退一步，并观察到某些事物处于不良状态。

So, maybe it's, "Whoa, we've all the differentiation in the world, but people can't adopt the product, because we've never built any of these table stakes.

所以，也许是，“哇，我们拥有世界上所有的差异化产品，但人们无法采用该产品，因为我们从未建立过任何这些赌注。

It's undesirable." Or, "Oh, we've now built all these table stakes and we've not been investing in differentiation.

这是不可取的。”或者，“哦，我们现在已经建立了所有这些赌注，但我们还没有投资于差异化。

And actually, we're not that attractive to people, because switching product is a pain.

事实上，我们对人们没有那么大的吸引力，因为转换产品很痛苦。

And we're not just attractive to people.

我们不仅对人们有吸引力。

Okay, so this undesirable state."

好吧，这就是不受欢迎的状态。”

Paul Adams: And then, so you go and fix it, but the temptation is that you over-correct.

保罗·亚当斯：然后，你就去解决它，但诱惑是你纠正过度了。

And we've done this so many times in so many domains, everything from, "Okay, we don't have enough differentiation." A year later, "Oh, wait a minute, we're missing all the table stakes.

我们在很多领域都做过很多次这样的事情，从“好吧，我们没有足够的差异化”。一年后，“哦，等一下，我们失去了所有赌注。

Okay, we're over there." So, product building is one, people is another one.

好的，我们到了。”因此，产品建设是一回事，人员是另一回事。

Building out teams and people.

建设团队和人员。

Another big one was, I don't know, maybe five years into Intercom, we were on this high growth trajectory, really good classic startup before our pricing problems.

另一个大问题是，我不知道，也许 Intercom 进入五年后，我们就处于高速增长的轨道上，在定价问题之前，这确实是一个很好的经典初创公司。

And, we looked around and said, "None of us have done this before.

然后，我们环顾四周说：“我们以前没有人这样做过。

I don't think that's good.

我认为这不好。

Undesirable state.

不希望有的状态。

Do we even know what we're doing?

我们知道自己在做什么吗？

We're just a bunch of random people.

我们只是一群随机的人。

Do we know what we're doing?

我们知道自己在做什么吗？

We need to hire some experts.

我们需要聘请一些专家。

We need to hire some experts.

我们需要聘请一些专家。

If we're going to go up market, we need market people who've done it before."

如果我们要进入高端市场，我们需要以前做过这件事的市场人员。”

Paul Adams: So, that was undesirable state, fix it by hiring people who've done it before.

保罗·亚当斯：所以，这是不受欢迎的状态，可以通过雇用以前做过这种事的人来解决它。

And then, we hired loads of people who've done it before, and what they did was brought the culture and ways of working of their prior company to Intercom.

然后，我们雇佣了很多以前做过这件事的人，他们所做的就是将他们之前公司的文化和工作方式带到 Intercom。

And so, we totally over-corrected, didn't work out in a lot of cases.

所以，我们完全纠正过度了，在很多情况下都没有成功。

In most cases, it didn't work out.

在大多数情况下，它并没有成功。

Because, we weren't trying to be a bigger company, that already exists.

因为，我们并不想成为一家更大的公司，这已经存在了。

We're trying to be us.

我们正在努力成为我们。

So, I think, hiring and building teams is another where we really over-corrected to find out, "Okay, it's a balance here."

所以，我认为，招聘和建立团队是另一个我们真正过度纠正的地方，以发现“好吧，这是一个平衡”。

Paul Adams: Related to hiring, one is generalists and specialists, similar theme.

Paul Adams：与招聘相关，一个是通才和专才，主题类似。

People who've done it before, or people who are specialized.

以前做过这件事的人，或者专业人士。

And, we hired a bunch of specialists only to realize that they're not adaptable.

而且，我们聘请了一群专家，却发现他们的适应能力不强。

And, in Intercom, we have a lot of ambiguity, and we lean into the ambiguity, and people who are highly specialized can thrive in big companies, really thrive.

而且，在Intercom，我们有很多模糊性，我们倾向于模糊性，高度专业化的人可以在大公司中茁壮成长，真正茁壮成长。

They're invaluable employees.

他们是无价的员工。

But in a fluid startup-y culture with a lot of ambiguity, they can really drown, really struggle.

但在充满不确定性的流动性创业文化中，他们真的会被淹没，陷入困境。

Maybe the middle of this pendulum, landing in the middle is, "Let's hire someone who has done a bit of it and have a bit of specialism, not much, but enough to try and figure it out." So, we hire a lot of those people today.

也许这个钟摆的中间，落在中间的是，“让我们聘请一个做过一些工作并且有一点专业知识的人，虽然不多，但足以尝试并弄清楚它。”所以，我们今天雇佣了很多这样的人。

Lenny: First of all, I love all these stories of things that don't work out, because a lot of people don't like sharing these.

莱尼：首先，我喜欢所有这些失败的故事，因为很多人不喜欢分享这些。

And, this is what people want to hear, like, "Here's not everything was perfect.

而且，这就是人们想听到的，比如，“这并不是一切都是完美的。

Here's a lot of mistakes that are made along the way." And, it feels like this framework is a result of just doing this too many times.

在此过程中犯了很多错误。”而且，感觉这个框架是重复执行太多次的结果。

Is the main lesson here generally avoid swinging the pendulum too far?

这里的主要教训是通常要避免摆得太远吗？

Because sometimes, it's worth it, like in this case of AI, is like, "No, we're going all in." Or in mobile, it was worth going all in.

因为有时候，这是值得的，就像在人工智能的例子中，就像，“不，我们要全力以赴。”或者在移动领域，值得全力以赴。

I guess, yeah, what do you think of when I say that?

我想，是的，当我这么说的时候你会想到什么？

Paul Adams: In talking to people about this before, sometimes the conclusion of the conversation is something like, it's the only way to do it.

保罗·亚当斯：在之前与人们谈论这个问题时，有时谈话的结论是，这是唯一的方法。

You actually can't do it a different way." And so, maybe the question is really, how high does the pendulum go?

实际上你不能用不同的方式来做。”所以，也许问题真的是，钟摆能升到多高？

Versus, you got to swing it, and then it's like, how far do you swing it?

相反，你必须摆动它，然后就像，你摆动它多远？

And for sure, you're right.

当然，你是对的。

With AI, we are swinging it pretty high.

对于人工智能，我们把它摆得很高。

Maybe I overestimated earlier, if AI is in the differentiation camp to mix the frameworks, we're still building a lot of table stakes features too, building depth into the product.

也许我之前高估了，如果人工智能处于混合框架的差异化阵营，我们仍然在构建很多赌注功能，在产品中构建深度。

And that's 50/50, I think I mentioned 50/50 earlier, so that's 50/50.

那是 50/50，我想我之前提到过 50/50，所以那就是 50/50。

So, we're not totally swinging it.

所以，我们并没有完全改变它。

It's swung, but we're also doing the other thing and balancing things out.

它已经摇摆，但我们也在做其他事情并平衡事情。

So, I think you probably have to swing it.

所以，我认为你可能必须摇摆它。

It reminds me to know where the boundary is, is what I was going to say.

它提醒我要知道边界在哪里，这就是我要说的。

Paul Adams: It reminds me back to the olden days stories.

保罗·亚当斯：这让我想起了过去的故事。

I remember, at Google, privacy was really top of mind, to the point that it would block decisions, block product progress, just privacy circular conversations, so many circular conversations, and nothing ever got built or shipped.

我记得，在谷歌，隐私确实是最重要的，以至于它会阻碍决策，阻碍产品进展，只是隐私循环对话，如此多的循环对话，但没有任何东西被构建或交付。

I worked on a project for a year at Google and we shipped nothing in the year, just circular conversations, which killed me at the time.

我在谷歌的一个项目上工作了一年，这一年我们没有交付任何东西，只是循环对话，这当时害死了我。

So, when I went to Facebook, I realized they have a different approach to privacy.

所以，当我访问 Facebook 时，我意识到他们对隐私采取了不同的方法。

And again, I'm not advocating it's necessarily good, it certainly didn't help their brand.

再说一次，我并不是提倡它一定好，它肯定对他们的品牌没有帮助。

But, there was an idea that to know where the boundary is, you got to across it.

但是，有一个想法，要知道边界在哪里，你必须跨越它。

And crossing it is painful.

跨越它是痛苦的。

But, if you don't cross it, you'll never know.

但是，如果你不跨越它，你永远不会知道。

So if you think you're going up to the boundary and you stop before it, turns out it's actually miles over there.

因此，如果您认为自己正在到达边界并在边界之前停下来，那么事实证明那里实际上有数英里。

Paul Adams: So I think with a lot of this stuff, you don't really have a choice.

保罗·亚当斯：所以我认为对于很多这样的东西，你实际上没有选择。

You got to cross the boundary, feel the pain, be humble enough to realize you didn't get it right, and go again or whatever the corrective course is.

你必须跨越界限，感受到痛苦，足够谦虚地意识到你没有做对，然后重新开始或采取任何纠正措施。

Lenny: Yeah, get that pendulum off the even pivot thing that it's on.

莱尼：是的，把钟摆从它所在的偶数枢轴上取下来。

And then, let's fix that pendulum.

然后，让我们修复钟摆。

Let's put it back.

我们把它放回去吧。

Lenny: Okay.

莱尼：好的。

Another framework that I read about briefly, and I love the general idea of it already, which is something that I think you call product market story fit.

我简要阅读过的另一个框架，我已经喜欢它的总体思路，我认为这就是您所说的产品市场故事契合度。

Paul Adams: So yeah, with product market fit, pretty basic, well understood, very important.

Paul Adams：是的，产品市场契合度非常基本，易于理解，非常重要。

The way I describe product market fit is, you've got to build the right product for the right market.

我描述产品市场契合度的方式是，你必须为正确的市场打造正确的产品。

I think, by the way, as an aside, not enough people think about the market side of that equation.

顺便说一句，我认为，没有足够多的人考虑这个等式的市场方面。

A lot of product people don't think about the market side.

很多产品人员不会考虑市场方面。

But for me, it's very simple.

但对我来说，这很简单。

The market is the people, the problems they have, and how important the problems are to them.

市场就是人，他们所面临的问题，以及这些问题对他们的重要性。

To have a good market, you need a lot of people with the same problem, and they need to care a lot about it.

要有一个好的市场，需要有很多有同样问题的人，并且需要他们非常关心这个问题。

Going back to the Google social stuff, we found a lot of people with the same problem, but they didn't really care.

回到谷歌社交方面，我们发现很多人都有同样的问题，但他们并不真正关心。

They didn't really care.

他们并不真正关心。

What they had was fine.

他们所拥有的都很好。

So a lot of people with the same problem and a lot of energy around the problem and the product is the solution to that.

所以很多人都有同样的问题，并且围绕这个问题投入了大量的精力，而产品就是解决这个问题的方法。

The market's the who, the product's the what.

市场是谁，产品是什么。

Paul Adams: And, I don't know, in my career again, so a bunch of products that were built, there were good products in good markets, and they failed and I couldn't work it out.

保罗·亚当斯：而且，我不知道，在我的职业生涯中，所以制造了一堆产品，在好的市场中有好的产品，但它们失败了，我无法解决。

And eventually, I came back to this idea that...

最终，我又回到了这个想法……

And maybe someone might say, "Paul, it's marketing.

也许有人会说，“保罗，这是营销。

You're talking about marketing." But story, the story's wrong or the story's missing.

你在谈论营销。”但是故事，故事是错误的，或者是故事缺失了。

And so, sometimes, it would be a great product in a great market explained in a convoluted way.

因此，有时，它会是一个伟大市场中的伟大产品，但其解释却令人费解。

I see that a lot.

我经常看到这样的情况。

I used to see that a lot at Google again, just explained in a very complicated way over intellectualized.

我以前在谷歌经常看到这样的情况，只是用一种非常复杂的方式解释，而不是智能化。

And, as a result, people are like, "What?

结果，人们会说：“什么？

What are you talking about?" You don't get their attention.

你在说什么？”你没有引起他们的注意。

And so, the story is really important, as important.

所以，这个故事真的很重要，同样重要。

And actually, sometimes you'll see not great products, certainly worse on paper...

事实上，有时你会看到不是很棒的产品，在纸面上肯定更糟糕......

I'm trying to remember the Spotify competitor back in the day, people were like...

我试图回忆起当年 Spotify 的竞争对手，人们就像……

What was the name of it?

它叫什么名字？

Paul Adams: Yeah, Ordio.

保罗·亚当斯：是的，奥迪奥。

Ordio was one of these where-

奥迪奥就是其中之一——

Paul Adams: ...

保罗·亚当斯：...

Yeah, all I've ever heard about Ordio was, "Amazing product."

是的，我所听到的关于 Ordio 的一切都是“令人惊叹的产品”。

Paul Adams: It's failed.

保罗·亚当斯：失败了。

And why did it fail?

为什么失败了？

Spotify and Ordio had the same market.

Spotify 和 Ordio 拥有相同的市场。

They were solving the same set of problems.

他们正在解决同一组问题。

Ordio was arguably the better product at the time.

Ordio 可以说是当时更好的产品。

I don't know if that's true, but arguably the better.

我不知道这是否属实，但可以说更好。

I also think Spotify's an incredible product.

我还认为 Spotify 是一款令人难以置信的产品。

But, they got the story wrong.

但是，他们误解了这个故事。

And so, again, I think, all product people, whether you're a designer, product manager, people in research, data science, need to think about the story all the time.

因此，我再次认为，所有产品人员，无论是设计师、产品经理、研究人员、数据科学人员，都需要始终思考这个故事。

Work of marketing, work of product marketing, and learn about how to explain the product, as much as how to build the product.

营销工作，产品营销工作，学习如何解释产品，以及如何构建产品。

Lenny: Mm-hmm.

莱尼：嗯嗯。

Makes me think about positioning and how important that is.

让我思考定位以及它的重要性。

And, we had April Dunford on the podcast very recently talking a lot about that.

而且，我们最近在播客上让阿普里尔·邓福德（April Dunford）谈论了很多这个问题。

Paul Adams: Yeah.

保罗·亚当斯：是的。

Yeah, she's excellent.

是的，她很优秀。

Yeah, it is really, "Why are you better and can you explain why you're better?"

是的，确实是，“为什么你变得更好了，你能解释一下为什么你变得更好了吗？”

Lenny: That's such an important point.

莱尼：这是非常重要的一点。

A final area I wanted to touch on is jobs to be done.

我想谈的最后一个领域是待完成的工作。

So we had the co-creator of Jobs to be Done on the podcast.

因此，我们在播客上邀请了《Jobs to be Done》的共同创作者。

We had Shyam Krishnan on the podcast.

我们的播客中有希亚姆·克里希南 (Shyam Krishnan)。

They very much disagree about how effective Jobs to be Done is.

他们对于“待完成的工作”的有效性有很大分歧。

I know you guys are big on Jobs to be Done.

我知道你们热衷于“待完成的工作”。

So, what are your just general thoughts on the Jobs to be Done framework?

那么，您对待完成工作框架的总体看法是什么？

How effective was it for you all?

对大家来说效果如何？

How do you use it?

你如何使用它？

What do you find work?

你找到什么工作？

Doesn't work?

不起作用？

Whatever comes up.

无论发生什么。

Paul Adams: Yeah.

保罗·亚当斯：是的。

I'll be totally honest, at the risk of finding people do this, we worked with Bob West years ago.

老实说，冒着发现有人这样做的风险，我们几年前就与鲍勃·韦斯特合作过。

I think Bob's a great guy.

我认为鲍勃是个好人。

And we followed that model of Jobs to be Done more than the ODI, I think, is the other skill of thought.

我认为，我们比 ODI 更遵循“要完成的工作”模型，这是另一种思维技巧。

Anyway.

无论如何。

I'll try say this in a simple way.

我会尝试用简单的方式说这个。

We found Jobs to be Done really good.

我们发现 Jobs to Done 做得非常好。

Very, very useful.

非常非常有用。

But, in a very simple way...

但是，以一种非常简单的方式......

Again, back to this idea of simple frameworks, in a simple way, separately, there's so many people who spend so much of their energy debating the nuances and peculiarities of one version.

再次回到简单框架的想法，以一种简单的方式，单独地，有很多人花费大量的精力来争论一个版本的细微差别和特性。

Who cares?

谁在乎？

No one cares.

没有人关心。

Oh well, I don't care.

哦，好吧，我不在乎。

They care obviously.

他们显然很关心。

But your customers don't care.

但你的客户不在乎。

People you're trying to build a product for don't care,.

你试图为其开发产品的人并不关心。

No one cares.

没有人关心。

That's a cool intellectual debate.

这是一场很酷的智力辩论。

But, for me, maybe this is too extreme.

但对我来说，也许这太极端了。

It doesn't really have any place in the work we do.

它在我们所做的工作中实际上没有任何地位。

We're just trying to build a great product.

我们只是想打造一款出色的产品。

Paul Adams: And so, for us with Jobs to be Done, it was a really good way of us centering on the customer problem, focusing on not getting distracted, basing it in good solid research informed insight, that told us the thing people are trying to do.

保罗·亚当斯：因此，对于我们的“待完成工作”来说，这是一种非常好的方式，让我们专注于客户问题，专注于不分心，以良好可靠的研究为基础的洞察力，这告诉我们人们正在尝试做的事情。

What is the thing people are trying to do?

人们正在尝试做的事情是什么？

Again, energy.

再次，能量。

Do they have a lot of energy around it?

他们周围有很多能量吗？

Maybe the energy thing might've come from talking to Bob actually, now that I think about it.

现在我想起来了，也许能量实际上来自于和鲍勃的谈话。

I think it did actually.

我认为确实如此。

I think, the idea of this idea that you need people who have a lot of energy around the problem.

我认为，这个想法需要有大量精力来解决问题的人。

And you have to interview them for that most of the time to feel the energy they have.

大多数时候你必须采访他们才能感受到他们的能量。

It's very easy to see if someone's apathetic versus into it.

很容易看出一个人是冷漠还是热衷。

Paul Adams: So, we've had it pretty good.

保罗·亚当斯：所以，我们做得很好。

And, we invented this job stories thing by accident.

而且，我们偶然发明了这个工作故事。

I can't remember exactly what happened.

我记不清到底发生了什么。

But, I wrote out this way of writing a job story basically.

但是，我基本上是这样写工作故事的。

Well, we didn't call it job stories, someone else called it that.

嗯，我们没有称之为工作故事，而是其他人这么称呼的。

We just, at the time, were like...

我们只是，当时，就像...

I can't even remember.

我什至不记得了。

It was a trigger.

这是一个触发器。

And, anyway, we didn't even give it the thing a name, someone else named it, I think.

而且，无论如何，我们甚至没有给它命名，我想是其他人给它命名的。

And, I'm just like, "We're just trying to build a great product." So, we've had it really good in that way, really simple.

而且，我只是想，“我们只是想打造一款出色的产品。”所以，我们的方式非常好，非常简单。

And then, the other one that we use a lot still here is the four forces, which is this framework of Jobs to be Done.

然后，我们在这里仍然经常使用的另一种力量是四种力量，这就是“待完成的工作”的框架。

The four forces being...

四大势力分别是...

There's different forces when people try and switch product.

当人们尝试更换产品时，会受到不同的力量的影响。

And some of it's the differentiation, table stake stuff, like the attraction of the new solution, the reasons that you might not adopt it.

其中一些是差异化、赌注的东西，比如新解决方案的吸引力，以及你可能不采用它的原因。

Habits.

习惯。

People have anxieties.

人们有焦虑。

Paul Adams: Here's another funny story to tell you how much...

保罗·亚当斯：这是另一个有趣的故事，告诉你有多少......

The four forces is really good.

四大势力确实不错。

Here's a funny story, I was saying earlier that Eoghan and Des were trying to convince me to leave Facebook, which I loved at the time, join and to come.

这是一个有趣的故事，我之前说过，Eoghan 和 Des 试图说服我离开我当时喜欢的 Facebook，加入并继续加入。

They wrote out the four forces for me to join.

他们列出了让我加入的四种力量。

And then, secretly, over a few beers, talked to me and fed me my anxieties.

然后，喝了几杯啤酒，偷偷地和我说话，缓解了我的焦虑。

And basically worked me on the four forces.

基本上让我研究了四种力量。

And I was like, "That is genius.

我当时想，“这真是天才。

That is ingenious.

这是巧妙的。

Maybe it's a bit...

也许是有点...

But it's ingenious." And so, the four forces is incredibly good at helping understand why people make decisions.

但这是巧妙的。”因此，这四种力量非常擅长帮助理解人们做出决定的原因。

Lenny: I love that a lot of your advice just continues to come back to, keep it simple, cut away anything that isn't necessary.

莱尼：我喜欢你的很多建议不断回归，保持简单，删除任何不必要的内容。

And, I find the same exact thing with Jobs to be Done.

而且，我发现《待完成的工作》也有同样的情况。

I find it really useful as a framework for the podcast, the newsletter, but I think there's this endless set of processes and ways of optimizing that gets people distracted.

我发现它作为播客、时事通讯的框架非常有用，但我认为有无穷无尽的流程和优化方法会让人们分心。

And, often just slows everything down.

而且，通常只会减慢一切。

Paul Adams: Yeah, yeah.

保罗·亚当斯：是的，是的。

And it's interesting and fun to talk about sometimes, really fascinating, unless you're an academic.

有时谈论起来很有趣，真的很有趣，除非你是一名学者。

But if you're working in a company that you're trying to build a software product for people to improve their lives in some small meaningful way, it doesn't matter.

但如果你在一家公司工作，你正在尝试构建一款软件产品，以帮助人们以某种有意义的小方式改善他们的生活，那么这并不重要。

Just use the thing that helps you do that.

只需使用可以帮助您做到这一点的东西即可。

That's the goal.

这就是目标。

And use the thing that helps you do that.

并使用可以帮助你做到这一点的东西。

And that's it.

就是这样。

Lenny: With that, we've reached our very exciting lightning round.

莱尼：这样，我们就进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。

Are you ready?

你准备好了吗？

Lenny: What are two or three books that you've recommended most to other people?

莱尼：你向其他人推荐最多的两三本书是什么？

Paul Adams: Yeah, the two books I recommend to everyone always, I have copies in my office here, It's Not How Good You Are, It's How Good You Want to Be.

保罗·亚当斯：是的，我一直向大家推荐的两本书，我的办公室里有几本，《重要的不是你有多好，而是你想成为多好》。

It's a book by Paul Arden who worked in advertising a long time ago.

这是保罗·雅顿（Paul Arden）的一本书，他很久以前就从事广告工作。

It's an excellent book.

这是一本很棒的书。

It shows people that you feel an unlimited potential if you think about it the right way, everyone does.

它向人们表明，如果你以正确的方式思考，你就会感受到无限的潜力，每个人都是如此。

The second book I recommend to everyone and buy for people and give to them is Principles by Ray Dalio.

我向大家推荐并为人们购买并送给他们的第二本书是雷·达里奥（Ray Dalio）的《原则》。

I'm a big fan of Ray Dalio.

我是雷·达里奥的忠实粉丝。

I think he's incredible.

我认为他是不可思议的。

I'm a big believer in principles.

我非常相信原则。

A lot of us at Intercom are...

Intercom 的很多人都...

I always get those two books.

我总是得到这两本书。

And they're totally different.

他们完全不同。

The Paul Arden book, you can read it in 20 minutes.

保罗雅顿的书，20分钟就能读完。

Principles is that thick.

原则就是这么厚。

Lenny: What is a favorite recent movie or TV show that you really enjoyed?

莱尼：您最近最喜欢的电影或电视节目是什么？

Paul Adams: Most recent is The Bear, which I came to late.

保罗·亚当斯：最近的作品是《熊》，我来晚了。

The reason I love the show is because I think it somewhat celebrates the grind.

我喜欢这个节目的原因是因为我认为它在某种程度上庆祝了磨难。

And I think that's important.

我认为这很重要。

I worked in coffee shops a lot when I was younger, when I put myself through college and stuff.

当我年轻的时候，当我完成大学学业之类的事情时，我经常在咖啡馆工作。

And, the grind is part of life, and the grind is a necessity to get things done, and make great things happen sometimes.

而且，磨砺是生活的一部分，磨练是完成事情的必要条件，有时也能让伟大的事情发生。

And I like that about it.

我喜欢这一点。

I really like that about it.

我真的很喜欢这一点。

Lenny: What is a favorite interview question you'd like to ask candidates?

莱尼：您最喜欢问应聘者的面试问题是什么？

Paul Adams: Yeah, I'll give you a slightly different answer.

保罗·亚当斯：是的，我会给你一个稍微不同的答案。

I don't really have certain few questions for candidates.

我确实没有什么问题要问候选人。

And I don't like answer question diversity.

而且我不喜欢回答问题的多样性。

I don't like questions that rely on memory.

我不喜欢依赖记忆的问题。

Like, "Tell me about the last time you did X." Here's an amazing question I got given recently by Alyssa who used to work here.

比如，“告诉我你上次做 X 是什么时候。”最近，曾在这里工作的艾莉莎向我提出了一个令人惊奇的问题。

I had to do referral calls.

我必须打转介电话。

So, you're interviewing someone, you want to give them the job and they've got referees, and of course, the referees they have are the best people that they've ever worked with and their favorite managers.

所以，你正在面试某人，你想给他们这份工作，他们有推荐人，当然，他们的推荐人是他们共事过的最好的人，也是他们最喜欢的经理。

So this question is, "What feedback will I be giving this person in their first performance review?" It's an amazing question, because the person can't dodge it.

所以这个问题是，“我将在这个人的第一次绩效评估中向他们提供什么反馈？”这是一个令人惊奇的问题，因为这个人无法回避它。

There's an answer.

有一个答案。

And, it's incredibly enlightening.

而且，它非常具有启发性。

Lenny: And that's a question you ask on reference calls?

莱尼：这是你在推荐电话中问的问题吗？

Lenny: That is such a good question.

莱尼：这是一个很好的问题。

I love it.

我喜欢它。

Paul Adams: Yeah, it's a amazing question.

保罗·亚当斯：是的，这是一个令人惊奇的问题。

Yeah.

是的。

Lenny: All right, what a gem.

莱尼：好吧，真是一颗宝石。

Thank you for sharing that.

感谢您分享这一点。

What is a favorite product you've recently discovered that you really love?

您最近发现并且真正喜欢的最喜欢的产品是什么？

Paul Adams: This is maybe cheating, but I go back to a lot of the AI products.

Paul Adams：这可能是作弊，但我会回顾很多人工智能产品。

I think ChatGPT Vision is mind-blowing.

我认为 ChatGPT Vision 令人兴奋。

I've been playing with Rewind lately.

我最近一直在玩Rewind。

I was a bit late to it.

我来得有点晚了。

Des, and Kiran, and a bunch of people here, founders of Intercom, love Rewind, use it and love it.

Des、Kiran 以及这里的一群人，Intercom 的创始人，都喜欢 Rewind，使用它并且喜欢它。

Thing's amazing.

事情很奇妙。

So I'm a bit late to that.

所以我有点晚了。

But, it's just augmented memory.

但是，这只是增强记忆。

It's mind-blowing.

真是令人兴奋。

So, Rewind's been fun.

所以，倒带很有趣。

Lenny: And they just came out with a little audio thing that can record your actual day.

莱尼：他们刚刚推出了一个可以记录你实际一天的音频小东西。

Paul Adams: Yeah, I'm not so sure about that.

保罗·亚当斯：是的，我对此不太确定。

Lenny: I'm not so sure.

莱尼：我不太确定。

I don't know.

我不知道。

I don't know if it's real.

我不知道这是不是真的。

It looked like not a real product when they launched in, but I think it's real.

当它们推出时，它看起来不是一个真正的产品，但我认为它是真实的。

Paul Adams: And it tippy-toes into what's okay and not okay with AI.

Paul Adams：它会小心翼翼地探讨人工智能的哪些方面可以，哪些方面不可以。

And, yeah.

而且，是的。

Yeah, it's a cool theory though, for sure.

是的，这确实是一个很酷的理论。

Lenny: What is a favorite life motto that you often come back to share with people, find helpful for yourself?

Lenny：您经常回来与人分享并发现对自己有帮助的最喜欢的人生格言是什么？

Paul Adams: Yeah, I have a post-it on my monitor that says, "Only work on what matters most." It's on my monitor, a post-it.

保罗·亚当斯：是的，我的显示器上贴着一张便利贴，上面写着：“只做最重要的事情。”它在我的显示器上，是便利贴。

And it sometimes falls off, and I have to write it again.

而且有时会掉下来，我还得重新写。

Only work on what matters most.

只做最重要的事情。

And, it's amazing.

而且，这太棒了。

I go into work, someone emails me, and I'm like, "Oh, God." I'm like, "Only work on what matters most." The second one related is, stop worrying about things you can't control.

我去上班，有人给我发电子邮件，我说，“哦，上帝。”我想，“只做最重要的事情。”第二个相关的问题是，不要再担心你无法控制的事情。

And so, I have two of those.

所以，我有两个。

And so, only working what matters most.

因此，只做最重要的事情。

Stop worrying about things you can't control.

不要再担心你无法控制的事情。

It just reduces the temperature.

它只是降低温度。

Again, life lessons learned.

再次，吸取人生教训。

I sent a lot of dumb emails in my past, like, "Red Energy, oh my God, what are they thinking?" You wake up in Dublin to a San Francisco email.

我过去发过很多愚蠢的电子邮件，比如“红色能量，天哪，他们在想什么？”您在都柏林醒来，收到一封旧金山电子邮件。

And you're like, "Oh god.

你会说：“天啊。

Keyboard." And, if your monitor says these two things, you just don't do that.

键盘。”而且，如果您的显示器显示这两件事，您就不要这样做。

You just take a breath, get a coffee, come back.

你只需吸一口气，喝杯咖啡，然后回来。

Does it really matter?

这真的重要吗？

Lenny: Beautiful.

莱尼：美丽。

The second one, I think, I learned first from Seven Habits of Highly Effective People.

我想，第二个是我首先从《高效能人士的七个习惯》中学到的。

Have you read that?

你读过吗？

Lenny: Just think about the focus, the circle of things you can control, and then there's the circle of things you can influence, and then there's the things you have no control over.

莱尼：想想焦点，你可以控制的事情的范围，然后是你可以影响的事情的范围，然后是你无法控制的事情。

And, I find that really helpful myself.

而且，我发现这对我自己真的很有帮助。

I love that you have it as a post-its.

我喜欢你把它当作便利贴。

I feel like, I need to make post-its of all these lessons people share as their little mottos.

我觉得，我需要将人们分享的所有这些教训作为他们的小座右铭。

Paul Adams: Yeah, the post-it on the monitor is a real life hack, I found a few years ago.

保罗·亚当斯：是的，显示器上的便利贴是我几年前发现的现实生活中的黑客。

Because it's dumb in a way.

因为它在某种程度上很愚蠢。

The posts on the monitor, it's in the way.

监视器上的帖子，很碍事。

Lenny: Wait, you actually put it on the monitor in the way of your screen?

莱尼：等等，你真的把它放在显示器上的屏幕上了吗？

Paul Adams: It's in the bottom left, just covering the bottom.

Paul Adams：它在左下角，刚好覆盖底部。

Because otherwise, if it wasn't there, I wouldn't look at.

因为否则的话，如果它不在那里，我就不会看。

I make myself look at it.

我强迫自己看它。

Lenny: Yeah.

莱尼：是的。

Wow.

哇。

I haven't heard of people putting it over precious real estate on their monitor.

我还没有听说有人把它放在显示器上宝贵的空间上。

Lenny: That works.

莱尼：那行。

What's the most valuable lesson your mom or your dad taught you?

你的妈妈或爸爸教给你的最有价值的一课是什么？

Paul Adams: The biggest one, again, so reductive and simple is to be nice to people.

保罗·亚当斯（Paul Adams）：最重要的一点，再次简单化，就是对人友善。

I think, being nice goes way further than people really realize.

我认为，友善比人们真正意识到的要远得多。

One thing that I've learned, again, the hard way through life is you have no idea what's going on in people's lives.

我在人生的艰难历程中再次学到的一件事是，你不知道人们的生活中正在发生什么。

You've no idea.

你不知道。

People could have all sorts of really stressful, all sorts of personal stuff going on, and the reason they did the thing at work that you didn't like is because of that.

人们可能会遇到各种各样的压力，各种各样的个人事情，他们在工作中做你不喜欢的事情就是因为这个。

And so, I try and think, "Be nice.

所以，我试着想，“表现得友善一些。

You don't know what's going on.

你不知道发生了什么事。

You might learn later.

你以后可能会学到。

Don't act in a way you would regret." I think, being nice in life goes far further than most people give a credit for, because it's too much of a, I don't know, fluffy truism or whatever.

不要以会让你后悔的方式行事。”我认为，生活中的友善远远超出了大多数人的想象，因为我不知道，这太过于是一种空洞的老生常谈之类的东西了。

Lenny: I 1000% resonate with that.

莱尼：我对此有 1000% 的共鸣。

I've been told I'm too nice and I had to become a little less nice.

有人告诉我我太好了，我必须变得不那么好。

But, I still can't lose that.

但是，我还是不能失去它。

So I fully buy into that.

所以我完全相信这一点。

My parents taught me a similar lesson.

我的父母也给我上了类似的课。

Paul Adams: Yeah.

保罗·亚当斯：是的。

And sometimes it's hard.

有时这很难。

I'd never fired anyone before I joined Intercom, for example.

例如，在加入 Intercom 之前，我从未解雇过任何人。

I really did not like doing it.

我真的不喜欢这样做。

And, since then, I've done it quite a few times in a bunch of different circumstances, and realized it always works out for both sides.

从那时起，我在许多不同的情况下做了很多次，并意识到它总是对双方都有好处。

And the nicest thing to do is to do the harder thing.

最好的事情就是做更难的事情。

It's actually the nicer thing to do.

这实际上是更好的事情。

People are relieved in this example.

看到这个例子，人们都松了口气。

It's a nicer thing to do.

这是一件更好的事情。

So, it can be a complicated one.

因此，这可能是一件复杂的事情。

Lenny: I love it.

莱尼：我喜欢。

Final question.

最后一个问题。

You're Irish, you're based in Ireland.

你是爱尔兰人，你居住在爱尔兰。

What is an Irish food you think people should definitely try out if they ever visit Ireland?

您认为如果人们访问爱尔兰一定应该尝试什么爱尔兰食物？

Paul Adams: Can I cheat and say Guinness?

保罗·亚当斯：我可以作弊并说吉尼斯吗？

Is that food?

那是食物吗？

Paul Adams: The Guinness in Ireland.

保罗·亚当斯：爱尔兰的吉尼斯黑啤酒。

People talk about this and it's true.

人们谈论这个，这是真的。

The Guinness in Ireland is much, much better for a whole bunch of reasons.

由于多种原因，爱尔兰的吉尼斯黑啤酒要好得多。

It's basically a fresh product and it's brewed here.

它基本上是一种新鲜产品，是在这里酿造的。

It's the way they think about, it's like milk.

这是他们的想法，就像牛奶一样。

Milk goes off, Guinness goes off.

牛奶没了，吉尼斯啤酒没了。

Guinness is older than a few days old, tends to start deteriorating.

吉尼斯黑啤酒存放时间超过几天，往往会开始变质。

So, Guinness Ireland is amazing, because it's made here.

所以，爱尔兰吉尼斯啤酒很神奇，因为它是在这里生产的。

The other thing I think that Ireland does really well is fish.

我认为爱尔兰做得很好的另一件事是鱼。

Ireland has not had, by the way, the greatest reputation for culinary excellence over the years.

顺便说一句，爱尔兰多年来并没有因卓越的烹饪而享有盛誉。

I think Irish food in the States in particular is not good.

我认为美国的爱尔兰菜尤其不好。

But, the fish here is incredible.

但是，这里的鱼真是令人难以置信。

You can get incredible fish.

你可以获得令人难以置信的鱼。

And Ireland's obviously an island, so there's a lot of fish.

爱尔兰显然是一个岛屿，所以有很多鱼。

Lenny: On the Guinness front, is there any way to get the good stuff not in Ireland?

莱尼：在吉尼斯世界纪录方面，有什么办法可以在爱尔兰之外买到好东西吗？

Or is that just you got to go?

或者你就得走了？

Paul Adams: No, there is actually.

保罗·亚当斯：不，实际上是有的。

You just need to be near a brewery.

您只需要靠近啤酒厂即可。

So Guinness is brewed in Nigeria.

所以吉尼斯黑啤酒是在尼日利亚酿造的。

There's a huge Guinness market in Nigeria.

尼日利亚有一个巨大的吉尼斯市场。

Paul Adams: I think they actually use a different recipe, but it's brewed there.

保罗·亚当斯：我认为他们实际上使用了不同的配方，但它是在那里酿造的。

I think the brewery in the U.S. is somewhere in the east coast between New York and Eastern Canada.

我认为美国的啤酒厂位于纽约和加拿大东部之间的东海岸某个地方。

So, it's somewhere there.

所以，它就在那儿的某个地方。

So, often, the Guinness in New York can be actually pretty good.

所以，通常情况下，纽约的吉尼斯黑啤酒实际上相当不错。

The Guinness in San Francisco tends to be really bad.

旧金山的吉尼斯啤酒往往很糟糕。

I remember talking to someone about this that works in Guinness.

我记得和某人谈论过这个在吉尼斯世界纪录中有效的东西。

One of my friends, does a lot of work in Guinness.

我的一位朋友在吉尼斯世界纪录中做了很多工作。

I think the boat carried the Guinness goes down through the Panama Canal back up to San Francisco.

我认为载着吉尼斯世界纪录的船穿过巴拿马运河回到旧金山。

So, it's 12-weeks-old or something.

所以，它已经 12 周大了。

Lenny: Wow.

莱尼：哇。

Did not think we would be learning about the travel path of Guinness from-

没想到我们会从——

Paul Adams: At least this is what I've heard.

保罗·亚当斯：至少我是这么听说的。

The Guinness has so many myths, you just don't really know what's true.

吉尼斯世界纪录有很多神话，你只是不知道什么是真实的。

But, these are the stories I've been told.

但是，这些是我听过的故事。

Lenny: ...

莱尼：……

Amazing.

太棒了。

Paul, you are awesome.

保罗，你太棒了。

Thank you so much for being here.

非常感谢您来到这里。

Two final questions.

最后两个问题。

Where can folks find you online if they want to reach out?

如果人们想联系您，可以在哪里找到您？

And how can listeners be useful to you?

听众如何对你有用？

Paul Adams: I have a handle, it's everywhere.

保罗·亚当斯：我有一个把手，它无处不在。

Basically, P-A-D-D-A-Y.

基本上，P-A-D-D-A-Y。

It's Paddy with an extra A.

这是帕迪多了一个A。

So, P-A-D-D-A-Y.

所以，P-A-D-D-A-Y。

That's everywhere.

那无处不在。

So, paddy@gmail, @Paddy.

所以，paddy@gmail，@Paddy。

It's my handle everywhere.

到处都是我的把柄。

So, that's where you can find me.

所以，那就是你可以找到我的地方。

I'd love people to reach out to me, right, genuinely learn.

我希望人们能够向我伸出援手，是的，真诚地学习。

I'd love to hear from people who think my AI talk is nonsense and it's more a crypto Web3.

我很乐意听到那些认为我的 AI 演讲毫无意义、更像是加密 Web3 的人的意见。

Or, I'd love to hear people who have alternative opinions and challenge mine.

或者，我很想听到那些有不同观点并挑战我的观点的人。

That's how I like to learn and get better.

这就是我喜欢学习并变得更好的方式。

So, if people have those opinions, I'd love to hear them.

所以，如果人们有这些意见，我很想听听他们的意见。

I'd love to talk to them.

我很想和他们谈谈。

Lenny: Be careful what you wish for.

莱尼：小心你的愿望。

The YouTube comments are always a spicy place.

YouTube 的评论总是一个辛辣的地方。

We'll see what we see.

我们会看到我们所看到的。

Awesome, Paul.

太棒了，保罗。

Thank you again so much for being here.

再次非常感谢您来到这里。

Paul Adams: Yeah, thanks Lenny.

保罗·亚当斯：是的，谢谢莱尼。

I really appreciate it.

我真的很感激。

Lenny: Bye, everyone.

莱尼：再见，大家。

Thank you so much for listening.

非常感谢您的聆听。

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如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.

您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。