10 lessons on bootstrapping a $200m business | Patrick Campbell (ProfitWell)

Patrick Campbell: The bratty thing here is that real professional ship.

帕特里克·坎贝尔：这里最讨厌的是那艘真正的专业船。

At the end of the day, real...

到最后，真正的...

I don't care if you're a marketer or a product person, engineer, ops person, people ops, real professional ship, and they ship at a pretty high frequency for whatever they're doing.

我不在乎你是营销人员还是产品人员、工程师、运营人员、人员运营人员、真正的专业船舶，无论他们正在做什么，他们的交付频率都相当高。

In my opinion, your tempo framework is more important than your org design.

在我看来，你的节奏框架比你的组织设计更重要。

And so if you've ever had a team that seems really, really smart, but they're always planning or they don't really ship a lot, or you've had trouble where everyone kind of gets it at the leadership level, but then the team below them and below them seems to be kind of going in a different direction, you probably don't have enough alignment and you don't have enough alignment on what good looks like in terms of tempo.

因此，如果你曾经有一个看起来非常非常聪明的团队，但他们总是在计划，或者他们并没有真正交付很多东西，或者你遇到了麻烦，每个人都在领导层理解它，但他们下面的团队和他们下面的团队似乎朝着不同的方向前进，那么你可能没有足够的一致性，并且在节奏方面没有足够的一致性。

Audio: Welcome to Lenny's Podcast where I interview world-class product leaders and growth experts to learn from their hard-won experiences building and growing today's most successful products.

音频：欢迎来到 Lenny 的播客，我在其中采访了世界一流的产品领导者和增长专家，从他们构建和发展当今最成功产品的来之不易的经验中学习。

Today my guest is Patrick Campbell.

今天我的客人是帕特里克·坎贝尔。

Patrick is the founder and CEO of ProfitWell, which he bootstrapped and sold without any funding for over $200 million.

Patrick 是 ProfitWell 的创始人兼首席执行官，他在没有任何资金的情况下自行创办并以超过 2 亿美元的价格将其出售。

I've been a big fan of ProfitWell and of Patrick for many years.

多年来我一直是 ProfitWell 和 Patrick 的忠实粉丝。

He's one of the most insightful and smartest people that I know, constantly sharing wisdom on Twitter and in his newsletter, primarily on pricing and retention and team building and all of the elements of building a successful SaaS business.

他是我认识的最有洞察力、最聪明的人之一，经常在 Twitter 和新闻通讯中分享智慧，主要是关于定价、保留、团队建设以及建立成功的 SaaS 业务的所有要素。

Audio: I've been excited to get Patrick on the podcast since I launched it, and I think this may be the most action-packed signal-to-noise episode yet.

音频：自从我推出播客以来，我很高兴让帕特里克加入播客，我认为这可能是迄今为止最动感十足的信噪比剧集。

We cover 10 topics in an hour, including hot takes on team building, bootstrapping, shipping, competitive analysis, user research, and of course, pricing and retention.

我们在一小时内涵盖 10 个主题，包括团队建设、引导、运输、竞争分析、用户研究，当然还有定价和保留方面的热门话题。

Do not miss this episode, it is one of my new favorites.

不要错过这一集，它是我的新最爱之一。

With that, I bring you Patrick Campbell, after a short word from our wonderful sponsors.

在我们出色的赞助商简短致辞之后，我为您带来了帕特里克·坎贝尔。

Audio: This episode is brought to you by Vanta, helping you streamline your security compliance to accelerate growth.

音频：本集由 Vanta 为您带来，可帮助您简化安全合规性以加速增长。

If your business stores any data in the cloud, then you've likely been asked or are you going to be asked about your SOC 2 compliance.

如果您的企业在云中存储任何数据，那么您可能会被问到或将会被问到您的 SOC 2 合规性。

SOC 2 is a way to prove your company's taking proper security measures to protect customer data and builds trust with customers and partners, especially those with serious security requirements.

SOC 2 是一种证明您的公司采取了适当的安全措施来保护客户数据并与客户和合作伙伴（尤其是那些有严格安全要求的客户和合作伙伴）建立信任的方法。

Audio: Also, if you want to sell to the enterprise, proving security is essential.

音频：此外，如果您想向企业销售产品，证明安全性至关重要。

SOC 2 can either open the door for bigger and better deals or it can put your business on hold.

SOC 2 可以为更大、更好的交易打开大门，也可以让您的业务暂停。

If you don't have a SOC 2, there's a good chance you won't even get a seat at the table.

如果您没有 SOC 2，您很可能甚至无法获得席位。

Beginning a SOC 2 report can be a huge burden, especially for startups.

开始 SOC 2 报告可能是一个巨大的负担，尤其是对于初创公司而言。

It's time-consuming, tedious and expensive.

这是耗时、乏味且昂贵的。

Audio: Enter Vanta.

音频：万塔登场。

Over 3,000 fast-growing companies use Vanta to automate up to 90% of the work involved with SOC 2.

超过 3,000 家快速发展的公司使用 Vanta 自动化 SOC 2 涉及的高达 90% 的工作。

Vanta can get you ready for security audits in weeks instead of months, less than a third of the time that it usually takes.

Vanta 可以让您在几周而不是几个月内为安全审核做好准备，不到通常所需时间的三分之一。

For a limited time, Lenny's Podcast listeners get $1,000 off Vanta.

在有限的时间内，Lenny's Podcast 听众可享受 Vanta 1,000 美元优惠。

Just go to vanta.com/lenny, that's V-A-N-T-A.com/lenny to learn more and to claim your discount.

只需访问vanta.com/lenny（即 V-A-N-T-A.com/lenny）即可了解更多信息并申请折扣。

Get started today.

今天就开始吧。

Audio: This episode is brought to you by Amplitude.

音频：本集由 Amplitude 为您带来。

If you're setting up your analytics stack but not using Amplitude, what are you doing?

如果您正在设置分析堆栈但不使用 Amplitude，那么您在做什么？

Anyone can sell you analytics while Amplitude unlocks the power of your product and guides you every step of the way.

任何人都可以向您出售分析数据，而 Amplitude 则可以释放您产品的力量并指导您完成每一步。

Get the right data, ask the right questions, get the right answers, and make growth happen.

获取正确的数据，提出正确的问题，获得正确的答案，并实现增长。

To get started with Amplitude for free, visit amplitude.com.

要免费开始使用 Amplitude，请访问amplitude.com。

Amplitude, power to your products.

为您的产品带来幅度和力量。

Lenny: Patrick, welcome to the podcast.

莱尼：帕特里克，欢迎来到播客。

Patrick Campbell: Thanks for having me, man.

帕特里克·坎贝尔：谢谢你邀请我，伙计。

Good to finally...

还好最后...

we've been texting, chatting for years now and I just realized we've never had an actual conversation, so this is where the relationship and the friendship ends because we realize how awkward we are together, I guess.

我们已经发短信、聊天很多年了，我刚刚意识到我们从未进行过真正的对话，所以这就是我们的关系和友谊结束的地方，因为我想我们意识到我们在一起是多么尴尬。

Lenny: I highly doubt it.

莱尼：我非常怀疑。

I hope that doesn't happen.

我希望这不会发生。

I've wanted to get you on this podcast ever since I started this podcast.

自从我开始这个播客以来，我就想让你加入这个播客。

It's always been on my list.

它一直在我的清单上。

You're just generally one of the smartest humans and most amazing humans I know, and so thank you for joining me on this podcast.

一般来说，你是我认识的最聪明、最了不起的人之一，所以感谢你加入我的播客。

Patrick Campbell: We've got to introduce you to more people, but I appreciate that.

帕特里克·坎贝尔：我们必须把你介绍给更多的人，但我很感激。

I appreciate that.

我很欣赏这一点。

Lenny: You're a humble, humble man.

莱尼：你是一个谦虚、谦虚的人。

So usually what I do with these podcasts is I have this one main topic that I focus on, but I feel like you're such a renaissance man of a brain that I thought would be more fun to go through 10 different topics and power through them and see your perspective.

所以通常我对这些播客所做的就是有一个我关注的主要主题，但我觉得你是一位文艺复兴时期的大脑，我认为浏览 10 个不同的主题并深入了解它们并了解你的观点会更有趣。

I feel like you have all these contrarian takes on things and these interesting insights.

我觉得你对事物有所有这些相反的看法和这些有趣的见解。

And so what I want to do is just go through 10 topics and just get a sense of what's a big mistake founders companies make in this area, what's maybe a big opportunity they miss, or just like what's a hot take on this topic.

因此，我想做的就是浏览 10 个主题，了解公司创始人在这一领域犯下的重大错误是什么，他们可能错过了哪些重大机会，或者就像这个主题的热门观点是什么。

How's that sound?

听起来怎么样？

Patrick Campbell: Yeah, 100%.

帕特里克·坎贝尔：是的，100%。

Let's do it.

我们开始做吧。

I'm going to change my Twitter bio to that, renaissance of a brain.

我要把我的推特简介改成“大脑的复兴”。

That's for me.

那是给我的。

Yeah, I appreciate that.

是的，我很欣赏这一点。

Lenny: Yeah, just renaissance that quote.

莱尼：是的，只是复兴这句话。

That'd be hilarious.

那会很搞笑。

People will be like, "What the hell's he..." Anyway, let's just jump right in.

人们会说，“他到底是什么……”无论如何，让我们直接跳进去吧。

First topic is building your team as a founder or just a leader of any kind.

第一个主题是将您的团队建设为创始人或任何类型的领导者。

So here's the question, just what are the biggest mistakes people make building their team?

那么问题来了，人们在组建团队时犯的最大错误是什么？

What are the biggest opportunities people miss when they're building their team?

人们在组建团队时错过的最大机会是什么？

Or just generally what's like your take on how to best approach building your team as a founder or just a leader of people?

或者作为创始人或领导者，您对如何最好地建设团队有何看法？

Patrick Campbell: You always have to start answers with cliches, and I think the biggest cliche with building a team is, team is everything, right?

帕特里克·坎贝尔：你总是必须用陈词滥调来开始回答，我认为建立团队的最大陈词滥调是，团队就是一切，对吧？

If you're listening, you've heard that, you've probably said that to somebody or gotten mentored on that.

如果你在听，那么你已经听过，你可能已经对某人说过这句话或者接受过这方面的指导。

And I was told that in the early days of building, and I actually thought it was terrible advice.

在建设初期我就被告知，我实际上认为这是一个糟糕的建议。

I thought it was going to be the product or marketing or something that was going to hold us back.

我认为这将是产品或营销或其他阻碍我们前进的因素。

But I think that although team is everything, and I truly believe that, if you look at most data or most behaviors that most companies make, this isn't actually how we think or what we do.

但我认为，尽管团队就是一切，而且我坚信，如果你看看大多数公司的大多数数据或大多数行为，你会发现这实际上并不是我们的想法或做法。

Patrick Campbell: Let me give you two fundamental issues.

帕特里克·坎贝尔：让我告诉你两个基本问题。

I think the first one is we confuse team by being everything to all people to accommodating to every single person, and especially in tech the last couple of years, maybe that's going to change a little bit now, but it was always like, "Oh, everyone needs to be happy." And I think that's a really, really big misconception because you're not there to make everyone happy.

我认为第一个是我们让团队感到困惑，从为所有人提供一切到为每个人提供便利，尤其是在过去几年的科技领域，也许现在情况会有所改变，但总是这样，“哦，每个人都需要快乐。”我认为这是一个非常非常大的误解，因为你不是为了让每个人都高兴而存在的。

You're there for some sort of mission and some sort of goal and you want to set up the culture and the team in a way that gets to that particular goal.

你在那里是为了某种使命和某种目标，你希望以一种实现该特定目标的方式建立文化和团队。

Patrick Campbell: And I think the little bit more actionable way to look at this is, I don't think we actually focus on our team.

帕特里克·坎贝尔：我认为更可行的看待这个问题的方法是，我认为我们实际上并不关注我们的团队。

The average tenure of a manager in tech right now is about 15.7 months.

目前科技行业经理的平均任期约为 15.7 个月。

I actually went and looked into this mainly because we got into hyperdrive about team a couple of years ago.

我实际上去研究这个主要是因为几年前我们进入了关于团队的超驱动领域。

The average time a report has the same manager in corporate tech is only about 10.8 months, so just under 11 months.

同一位企业技术经理提交一份报告的平均时间仅为 10.8 个月左右，即不到 11 个月。

And there's no way that team is everything, or at least we actually believe that when the purveyors of your team, your management only lasts that long, it's just impossible.

团队不可能是一切，或者至少我们实际上相信，当你的团队的提供者、你的管理只能持续那么久时，这是不可能的。

Patrick Campbell: And I think for the most part, people ops is an afterthought.

帕特里克·坎贝尔：我认为在很大程度上，人员运营是事后才想到的。

And even if you get into the history of HR, which we should not do because that's an entire podcast, it's all about reacting.

即使你了解人力资源的历史（我们不应该这样做，因为那是一个完整的播客），这都是关于反应的。

It came out of the labor movement in the mid 1900s, and it was all about, "Hey, how do we CYA?" rather than, "How do we push our team forward?" And I think in tech we had the opportunity to do that, but we haven't really focused on our team as much.

它源于 1900 年代中期的劳工运动，其主题是“嘿，我们如何 CYA？”而不是“我们如何推动我们的团队前进？”我认为在科技领域我们有机会做到这一点，但我们并没有真正关注我们的团队。

So I don't know if I answered your question, but that's the scope of that problem I think, is we don't actually focus on our team, we don't actually focus on our team in the context of the mission.

所以我不知道我是否回答了你的问题，但这就是我认为问题的范围，我们实际上并没有关注我们的团队，我们实际上并没有在任务背景下关注我们的团队。

We just hire people, hope they're really happy.

我们只是雇佣员工，希望他们真的快乐。

And obviously I'm generalizing, but if you look at the stats and you look at what's happening, that's how it shakes out.

显然我是在概括，但如果你看看统计数据并看看正在发生的事情，那就是它的样子。

Lenny: Is there something you've done in building your company that has been counter to that, something you've learned about?

莱尼：在建立公司的过程中，你是否做过一些与此相反的事情，或者你学到了什么？

Because I totally agree, people always talk about team, team, team and then that's often really sucky to work at a lot of companies and clearly they don't care that much about your experience.

因为我完全同意，人们总是谈论团队、团队、团队，在很多公司工作通常很糟糕，而且显然他们不太关心你的经历。

Patrick Campbell: So super actionable things that we've done.

帕特里克·坎贝尔：我们所做的事情非常可行。

I think, one, it comes back to the baseline feedback or advice you've probably received, or if you're listening to this before, which is you can't be everything to all people, so who are you for?

我认为，第一，这又回到了你可能收到的基线反馈或建议，或者如果你以前听过这个，那就是你不可能成为所有人的一切，那么你是为了谁呢？

Who are you for and who are you not for?

你适合谁，不适合谁？

I think really defining that in your values, and values aren't values unless there's an actual trade-off.

我认为真正在你的价值观中定义这一点，除非存在实际的权衡，否则价值观就不是价值观。

And so we had things like optimize for the long-term.

因此，我们采取了诸如长期优化之类的措施。

There's a clear trade-off when we optimize for the long-term, you probably give up short-term revenue.

当我们针对长期进行优化时，您可能会放弃短期收入，这是一个明显的权衡。

Patrick Campbell: You also have different types of people that do better at the particular company than not.

帕特里克·坎贝尔（Patrick Campbell）：在特定的公司里，也有不同类型的人做得比其他人做得更好。

One of the more controversial things we did is we talked a lot about behaviors and the one thing that we had is this concept known as the most charitable interpretation.

我们所做的更具争议性的事情之一是我们谈论了很多关于行为的事情，而我们拥有的一件事就是这个被称为最慈善解释的概念。

It's not something we made up, but there's this idea that basically when there's conflict or when there's some sort of confrontation, the way that you handle that confrontation was really, really important to us.

这不是我们编造的东西，但有一个想法，基本上当存在冲突或某种对抗时，处理对抗的方式对我们来说真的非常重要。

And the way that we wanted our teams or the people that we wanted to hire for basically would take the most charitable interpretation of that confrontation.

我们希望我们的团队或我们想要雇用的人员的方式基本上会对这种对抗采取最仁慈的解释。

Patrick Campbell: So Lenny, if you were like, "Hey, Patrick, I like your shirt," and I just didn't like when people commented on my shirt, instead of getting pissed off, going to HR, or getting mad at you, what we would do is we'd say, "Hey, the right way at ProfitWell wall to handle that was be like, 'He didn't know, so I'm not going to bring it up,' or 'Hey, Lenny.

帕特里克·坎贝尔：莱尼，如果你说，“嘿，帕特里克，我喜欢你的衬衫，”而我只是不喜欢人们评论我的衬衫，而不是生气，去找人力资源部，或者生你的气，我们会说，“嘿，ProfitWell 墙处理这个问题的正确方法是，‘他不知道，所以我不会提起它’，或者‘嘿，莱尼。

You probably didn't know, but I don't really like when people comment on my shirt.'"

你可能不知道，但我真的不喜欢人们评论我的衬衫。”

Patrick Campbell: It seems super trivial, but when you have over 20 people, all of a sudden these things start to come up.

Patrick Campbell：这看起来非常微不足道，但是当你有超过 20 个人时，突然这些事情就会开始出现。

And I think most of the time we infantilize our teams where we let them run to HR, we have different policies or all of these different things, when at the end of the day you're paying an exorbitant amount of money for very smart human beings to basically do stuff and you want them basically working together and not having to go in this runaround with policies and people to push things forward.

我认为大多数时候，我们让我们的团队变得幼稚，让他们跑去人力资源部，我们有不同的政策或所有这些不同的事情，当一天结束时，你要为非常聪明的人支付高昂的费用来基本上做一些事情，你希望他们基本上一起工作，而不是在这种与政策和人员的周旋中推动事情向前发展。

Lenny: I love that.

莱尼：我喜欢这个。

It reminds me of something at Airbnb where our head of product was always encouraging us to assume good intent from the other person that just like, "What is the good version of what they're trying to achieve?

这让我想起了 Airbnb 的一些事情，我们的产品负责人总是鼓励我们假设对方的善意，就像“他们想要实现的目标的好版本是什么？

It's unlikely they're trying to cause harm."

他们不太可能试图造成伤害。”

Patrick Campbell: But the important part is, and this is where you really care about your team, is if you believe that, and it's okay to have a culture that doesn't believe that, it's not a culture for me, and that's okay, that's the entire point, but if you believe that, then people who have trouble assuming positive intent or who have trouble taking the most charitable interpretation, they can't be at your company, and they have to go and you have to find...

帕特里克·坎贝尔：但重要的是，这就是你真正关心你的团队的地方，如果你相信这一点，并且有一种不相信这一点的文化也没关系，这对我来说不是一种文化，没关系，这就是重点，但如果你相信这一点，那么那些难以假设积极意图或难以接受最慈善解释的人，他们就不能在你的公司，他们必须离开，你必须找到......

And we would have people, and we didn't always defend this and when we started defending it, everything got better.

我们会有人，我们并不总是捍卫这一点，当我们开始捍卫它时，一切都变得更好。

But all of a sudden we would say, "Hey, it seems like this is really tough.

但突然我们会说：“嘿，看来这真的很难。

This is how we think about things.

这就是我们思考事物的方式。

This is how we handle this type of behavior here.

这就是我们处理此类行为的方式。

If that's hard for you, let's find you another job." And thankfully we're not digging ditches here, we're all working in tech.

如果这对你来说很难的话，我们就给你找另一份工作。”值得庆幸的是，我们没有在这里挖沟渠，我们都在从事科技工作。

And so it's "easy", quote-unquote, enough to find another gig even in economies like now.

因此，即使在像现在这样的经济体中，这也“容易”，足以找到另一份工作。

Lenny: That reminds me of there's this guy Douglas Atkin, who I worked with for a while who helped us craft the core values at Airbnb, and he made this point that your values need to be clear, exactly like you said, who doesn't fit, who doesn't belong.

莱尼：这让我想起了道格拉斯·阿特金（Douglas Atkin），我和他一起工作了一段时间，他帮助我们制定了 Airbnb 的核心价值观，他指出你的价值观需要明确，正如你所说，谁不适合，谁不属于。

Because if it's everybody, it's worthless.

因为如果是每个人，那就毫无价值。

Integrity, trust, everyone wants that and it fits into that, but it's only valuable if it's clear who's not a fit, exactly how you're saying it.

正直、信任，每个人都希望如此，而且也符合这一点，但只有明确谁不适合，以及你所说的方式，它才有价值。

Patrick Campbell: Well, we get this fear of that accommodation culture, again, where it starts even in the interview process, we're like, "Oh my god, we need these hires, we need these salespeople, we need these engineers." So we don't end up being upfront with these values and these trade-offs in the interview process.

帕特里克·坎贝尔：嗯，我们再次对住宿文化感到恐惧，甚至在面试过程中就开始了，我们就像，“天哪，我们需要这些员工，我们需要这些销售人员，我们需要这些工程师。”因此，我们最终不会在面试过程中坦白这些价值观和权衡。

And then all of a sudden you spend a lot of time and a lot of money hiring someone who just doesn't fit.

然后突然间你花费了大量的时间和金钱来雇用一个不适合的人。

And I think that's really, really bad for them, it's really bad for you.

我认为这对他们来说真的非常糟糕，对你来说也真的很糟糕。

And so that was the other thing is we would pull all of this forward into the interview process and talk about it and basically say like, "Hey, if this is not how you think, that's okay.

因此，另一件事是我们会将所有这些都纳入面试过程并进行讨论，基本上会说，“嘿，如果这不是你的想法，那也没关系。

We're not better than you, you're not better than us, it's just this is how we do things here."

我们并不比你更好，你也不比我们更好，这就是我们在这里做事的方式。”

Patrick Campbell: And I think a lot of times we're scared to do that because we have that founder, that exact fear of, "Hey, we have to get this thing done and the only way to do that is to do X, Y or Z Z when in reality that's actually going to make your deadline go out further than actually focusing on alignment as much as humanly possible.

帕特里克·坎贝尔：我认为很多时候我们害怕这样做，因为我们有那个创始人，那种恐惧，“嘿，我们必须把这件事做好，而做到这一点的唯一方法就是做 X、Y 或 Z Z，而实际上这实际上会让你的最后期限比实际尽可能地专注于一致性更晚。

Lenny: Next topic, bootstrapping.

Lenny：下一个主题是引导。

I feel like you're probably in the bootstrap hall of fame.

我觉得你可能已经进入了引导名人堂。

You built a company-

你建立了一家公司-

Patrick Campbell: Here we go.

帕特里克·坎贝尔：我们开始吧。

That's all I've ever wanted.

这就是我一直想要的。

Lenny: I think you're in there.

莱尼：我想你就在那里。

So you tell me if I'm missing anything, but basically you bootstrapped a company, sold it for 200 million.

所以你告诉我我是否遗漏了什么，但基本上你创办了一家公司，并以 2 亿美元的价格出售了它。

I don't know if I've heard of anything like that.

我不知道我是否听说过类似的事情。

So what's your hot take?

那么你的热门观点是什么？

What are mistakes people make around bootstrapping?

人们在引导过程中会犯哪些错误？

Patrick Campbell: The basic idea is bootstrapping is for lifestyle businesses that want to cash flow.

帕特里克·坎贝尔：基本理念是引导是针对想要现金流的生活方式企业。

Funding is for companies trying to create a billion dollars in annual revenue.

资金是为那些试图创造十亿美元年收入的公司提供的。

And that answer offends everybody.

这个答案冒犯了所有人。

That answer offends the indie friends I have, they're going to be like, "Oh, what about Basecamp , ProfitWell?" And I'll tell you, ProfitWell, this was a big mistake.

这个答案冒犯了我的独立朋友，他们会说，“哦，ProfitWell，Basecamp 怎么样？”我会告诉你，ProfitWell，这是一个很大的错误。

Yes, it was a great exit, we sold for over $200 million, et cetera, but we probably, if we had taken money, we could have had a billion-dollar exit or we could have kept going.

是的，这是一次很棒的退出，我们以超过 2 亿美元的价格出售，等等，但如果我们拿了钱，我们可能会以 10 亿美元的价格退出，或者我们可以继续前进。

Patrick Campbell: And we should have taken money earlier in our life cycle.

帕特里克·坎贝尔：我们应该在生命周期的早期就拿钱。

This was actually a big mistake because we got hooked on the efficiency and that was great, but we could have moved even quicker than we were.

这实际上是一个很大的错误，因为我们着迷于效率，这很好，但我们本可以做得比现在更快。

And hindsight is 20/20, and I'm obviously not crying over this, but it's one of those things that I think that you have to know who you are and you have to know what your goals are for a company.

事后诸葛亮是20/20，我显然不会为此哭泣，但我认为你必须知道你是谁，你必须知道你对公司的目标是什么。

And our biggest thing was we wanted to build a big company and we were going after that, but we weren't doing the things in order to actually make that happen, which is i.e. getting funded.

我们最重要的事情是我们想建立一家大公司，我们一直在追求这个目标，但我们所做的事情并不是为了真正实现这一目标，即获得资金。

So yeah, that's my hot take and hopefully I offend everyone.

是的，这就是我的热门观点，希望我冒犯了所有人。

But it's also just the end of the Twitter argument where it's like, "Yeah, it depends," but that's the thing to think about.

但这也只是 Twitter 争论的结束，就像“是的，这取决于情况”，但这就是需要考虑的事情。

Lenny: It's interesting because usually you hear from the other end, someone that raised VC money is like, "I shouldn't have raised money, I should have bootstrapped this thing longer." It's cool to hear from the other side someone that did that like, "No, we maybe should have raised the VC money along the way."

莱尼：这很有趣，因为通常你会从另一端听到，筹集风险投资资金的人会说，“我不应该筹集资金，我应该更长时间地引导这件事。”听到对方说“不，我们也许应该一路筹集风险投资资金”，这真是太酷了。

Patrick Campbell: Well, I think there's a lot of ideas that should not raise money.

帕特里克·坎贝尔：嗯，我认为有很多想法不应该筹集资金。

There's a lot of ideas that should just be great cash flowing and they can be large businesses.

有很多想法应该能够产生大量的现金流，并且可以成为大型企业。

There's large businesses cash flowing tens of millions of dollars without funding.

有一些大企业在没有资金的情况下现金流达数千万美元。

And I think it's just one of those things that you need your goals, your model, and ultimately your funding situation all to match.

我认为这只是你需要你的目标、你的模型以及最终你的资金状况都匹配的事情之一。

And I think a lot of folks, they go in the opposite direction where they're just like, "Oh, everything on TechCrunch, everything on Twitter is like, "Hey, I need to raise money, raise money, raise money." And they don't take a step back and go like, well that idea, it's just not a very good business to get money.

我认为很多人都朝着相反的方向前进，他们就像是，“哦，TechCrunch 上的所有内容，Twitter 上的所有内容都像是，”嘿，我需要筹集资金，筹集资金，筹集资金。他们不会后退一步，然后说，好吧，这不是一个赚钱的好生意。

And money is so plentiful even now still that it is, quote-unquote, "relatively easy" to raise money on, just not a great idea, and so that's obviously problematic.

即使现在资金仍然如此充裕，以至于筹集资金“相对容易”，但这不是一个好主意，所以这显然是有问题的。

Lenny: I've been thinking about writing a post on that exact topic, something like, "Your startup probably is not venture scale," because a lot of people think they could raise money and build a huge business.

莱尼：我一直在考虑写一篇关于这个主题的文章，比如“你的初创公司可能没有风险规模”，因为很多人认为他们可以筹集资金并建立一个庞大的企业。

What's a heuristic that maybe tells a founder that they shouldn't raise money, it's never going to be a billion-dollar company?

有什么启发可以告诉创始人他们不应该筹集资金，它永远不会成为一家价值十亿美元的公司？

Patrick Campbell: I used to look at it 10 years ago you'd say, "Is this a company that can get to 100 million in annual revenue?" And now those numbers are all changed because IPOs are happening closer to 200, 250 million and the markets are all over the place depending on the day.

Patrick Campbell：10年前我经常看你会说，“这是一家年收入能达到1亿的公司吗？”现在这些数字都发生了变化，因为 IPO 数量接近 200、2.5 亿，而且市场每天都在变化。

I look at this as if you are going to be that large company, you need to get to a billion in revenue per year.

我认为，如果你要成为一家大公司，你需要每年获得 10 亿美元的收入。

It doesn't have to be overnight, it can be over 20 years, it's not something that has to happen quickly, but that's how I think about it.

这不一定是一朝一夕的事，可以是20多年，也不是必须很快发生的事情，但我就是这么想的。

And if I don't feel like there's a clear path to that, it doesn't mean I don't raise money.

如果我觉得没有明确的途径，并不意味着我不会筹集资金。

It just means that I take a step back and really think about that particular idea because when you get on that treadmill, there's plenty of ideas that will sell for 400 million, 500 million.

这只是意味着我退后一步，认真思考这个特定的想法，因为当你踏上跑步机时，有很多想法可以卖到 4 亿、5 亿美元。

Patrick Campbell: But then if you're on the funding treadmill and you look at how much money that founder that exec team ends up getting at the end of it's like you might have been better just building a 50 million cash flowing business that you're getting more money from that and you still have the choice to sell it.

帕特里克·坎贝尔：但是，如果你在融资跑步机上，你看看创始人、执行团队最终得到了多少钱，你可能会更好，只是建立一个 5000 万现金流的企业，你会从中获得更多的钱，而且你仍然可以选择出售它。

Patrick Campbell: So that's how I think about it.

帕特里克·坎贝尔：这就是我的想法。

It's a spectrum and it's on the margins there.

这是一个范围，而且处于边缘。

It's not a fixed rule.

这不是一个固定的规则。

But the other thing I also think about when I think about building my next company, we're going to be bootstrapped for, I don't know what...

但当我考虑建立下一家公司时，我也会考虑另一件事，我们将自力更生，我不知道是什么......

It's not a timeline, but I had imagined probably the first 18 to 24 months because I don't want to give up that equity for that funding on figuring out the idea.

这不是一个时间表，但我想象的可能是前 18 到 24 个月，因为我不想为了弄清楚这个想法而放弃这笔资金。

Obviously, I had an exit so I'm able to afford that and I'm in a position where I don't have to worry about my own livelihood.

显然，我有一个出口，所以我能够负担得起，而且我不必担心自己的生计。

Patrick Campbell: But I think it's one of those things if you can bootstrap, even if you're going after a funded idea, if you can bootstrap for the initial ideation and maybe even through product market fit, which is not an easy thing to do, but that's the ideal time then to raise because then you're just going and you're going for the fences at that point.

帕特里克·坎贝尔：但我认为，如果你可以引导，即使你正在追求一个资助的想法，如果你可以引导最初的想法，甚至可能通过产品市场契合，这就是其中之一，这不是一件容易做的事情，但这是筹集资金的理想时机，因为那时你就要去围栏了。

Lenny: I really like that very concrete stat you shared and that's exactly how we think about it, that if you don't think you can get to a billion dollars in revenue a year eventually that it probably is not a venture-scale business.

莱尼：我真的很喜欢你分享的那个非常具体的统计数据，这正是我们的想法，如果你不认为你最终可以达到每年 10 亿美元的收入，那么它可能不是一个风险规模的企业。

And I think that just boils down to how large is the market.

我认为这归结为市场有多大。

If there's not enough people that are going to pay enough money to make this a billion dollar a year in revenue business, you probably shouldn't go down the VC treadmill.

如果没有足够多的人愿意支付足够的钱来使这个每年收入十亿美元的业务，那么你可能不应该走上风险投资的跑步机。

Patrick Campbell: And I think when you think about that, it opens up this world of options for you as someone listening to this.

帕特里克·坎贝尔：我认为，当你想到这一点时，它为你作为一个倾听者打开了这个选择的世界。

And so think of it this way, you don't have to have the pressure to create a billion dollars in revenue If you can take a step back and be like, "Okay, I can create a $10-million business." You're listening to this and probably you're like, "I don't know." But if you were a director level somewhere at a corporate company or you're leading product somewhere, you can go create a $10-million business.

所以这样想吧，你不必承受创造 10 亿美元收入的压力，如果你能退一步说，“好吧，我可以创造一个 1000 万美元的业务。”当你听到这个消息时，你可能会说：“我不知道。”但如果你是一家公司的主管级别，或者你在某处领导产品，你就可以创建一个价值 1000 万美元的业务。

It might not happen overnight, it might take 10 years, all these other things.

这可能不会在一夜之间发生，可能需要 10 年，等等。

But that's amazing.

但这太棒了。

That's insane.

那太疯狂了。

Patrick Campbell: Think of 20, 30, 40, 50 years ago, you'd have to have a corner store and you'd have to work 18 hours a day to build that type of ability or that wealth to then hopefully retire when you're 65 and sell the business for 1X.

Patrick Campbell：想想 20、30、40、50 年前，你必须拥有一家街角商店，你必须每天工作 18 小时才能建立这种能力或财富，然后希望在 65 岁时退休并以 1 倍的价格出售公司。

Now you can build a software company that's doing a million a year, have an amazing life, reduce the number of hours if you want, or go all in, make it into a 10 or $100-million company over time.

现在，你可以建立一家年营业额达 100 万美元的软件公司，过上美好的生活，如果你愿意的话可以减少工作时间，或者全力以赴，随着时间的推移将其发展成为一家年营业额 10 或 1 亿美元的公司。

And I think that's amazing and we should celebrate that rather than if it's not a billion, you're failing.

我认为这太棒了，我们应该庆祝这一点，而不是如果不是十亿，你就失败了。

But we should just know our limits.

但我们应该知道自己的极限。

I think that's the thing a lot of people fail out with funding.

我认为这就是很多人在资金方面失败的原因。

Lenny: Next topic, pricing.

莱尼：下一个主题是定价。

You are probably the most...

你可能是最...

okay, you're in the top 1% smartest, most experienced people on pricing.

好吧，您是定价方面最聪明、最有经验的前 1% 人之一。

We could have done a whole podcast on pricing, maybe we will in the future, but as maybe one of 10 topics, what comes to mind as maybe the biggest mistake people make in pricing, biggest opportunity they miss, biggest hot take?

我们本来可以做一个关于定价的完整播客，也许我们将来会这样做，但作为 10 个主题之一，人们在定价中犯下的最大错误、他们错过的最大机会、最热门的观点可能是什么？

Patrick Campbell: It's super boring, but the biggest hot take is you just have to do something once a quarter.

帕特里克·坎贝尔：这非常无聊，但最热门的观点是你只需每个季度做一次某事。

That's it.

就是这样。

I've been trying to teach about pricing for a decade now.

十年来我一直在尝试教授定价知识。

I've done a lot of different approaches on this, and I think the easiest thing is, listen, you have three growth levers.

我对此采取了很多不同的方法，我认为最简单的事情是，听着，你有三个增长杠杆。

You have acquiring customers, monetizing them, and retaining them.

您需要获取客户、通过客户获利并留住客户。

You're spending a lot of time and money on acquisition.

您花费了大量的时间和金钱来获取。

You're spending some time and money on retention.

您在保留方面花费了一些时间和金钱。

You're probably do nothing on pricing and monetization and it's because you think it's this nebulous thing and there are some nebulous aspects to it.

您可能在定价和货币化方面没有采取任何措施，因为您认为这是一个模糊的事情，而且它有一些模糊的方面。

Patrick Campbell: But to make it super concrete, it is the revenue per customer.

帕特里克·坎贝尔：但要说得非常具体，那就是每个客户的收入。

Look at that number, that one KPI, and you want that number going up and to the right, it's obviously going to go to the right over time, but you want it to going up over time every single quarter, not as high as your sales volume or your lead volume or your revenue maybe.

看看这个数字，那个关键绩效指标，你希望这个数字上升并向右，它显然会随着时间的推移而向右，但你希望它随着时间的推移每个季度都会上升，而不是像你的销量、潜在客户数量或你的收入那么高。

But you want that number gradually going up and just do one thing per quarter.

但你希望这个数字逐渐上升，并且每个季度只做一件事。

The least sexy thing when it comes to pricing is have a pricing committee.

在定价方面，最不性感的事情就是设立一个定价委员会。

If it's a two-person company, it's you and your co-founder.

如果是一家两人公司，那就是你和你的联合创始人。

If it's a 100,000-person company, it might be 30 people, but really it's only eight people central to that particular product.

如果这是一家拥有 100,000 人的公司，可能有 30 人，但实际上只有 8 个人是该特定产品的核心人员。

Patrick Campbell: And then just realize there's a lot of things that influence that revenue per customer.

帕特里克·坎贝尔：然后你就会意识到，有很多因素会影响每个客户的收入。

There's the actual price, your packaging, your add-on strategy, your discount strategy, your price localization, freemium.

有实际价格、你的包装、你的附加策略、你的折扣策略、你的价格本地化、免费增值。

There's a whole host of different things there, but just find one thing you're going to do every three months, put a calendar invite, let it renew every three months.

那里有很多不同的事情，但只要找到一件你每三个月要做的事情，放置一个日历邀请，让它每三个月更新一次。

You're going to snooze it a couple of times, I get it, I've seen this many, many times before.

你要暂停几次，我明白，我以前已经见过很多很多次了。

But just do something, even if it's super small.

但只要做点什么，即使是非常小的事情。

I guarantee you it's just like any other thing you measure, as soon as you start measuring and caring about it, you're going to start to do some stuff, some of it is going to go poorly, some of it is going to go great.

我向你保证，它就像你测量的任何其他东西一样，一旦你开始测量和关心它，你就会开始做一些事情，有些会进展得很糟糕，有些会进展顺利。

Then you're going to do more stuff, and then just over time, all of a sudden that number's going to go up into the right.

然后你会做更多的事情，然后随着时间的推移，突然间这个数字就会上升到右边。

But just do something.

但只要做点什么就可以了。

That's the basic idea.

这就是基本的想法。

Lenny: I love the simplicity of that.

莱尼：我喜欢这种简单性。

If I think about the pie chart of the things you will do and may change, you mentioned a few.

如果我考虑一下你将要做的事情和可能改变的事情的饼图，你提到了一些。

One is raise prices.

一是涨价。

One may be lower prices.

一是价格可能较低。

One's probably change your pricing model.

人们可能会改变您的定价模型。

There's a couple more.

还有几个。

I guess, in your experience, where have you found the biggest opportunities end up being maybe early in the early phase of a startup in that pie chart?

我想，根据您的经验，您在饼图中的初创公司早期阶段的哪里发现了最大的机会？

Patrick Campbell: The number one thing to figure out when you're thinking about the different pricing pieces, pound for pound, it's the pricing metric or the value metric.

Patrick Campbell：当你考虑不同的定价时，首先要弄清楚的是定价指标还是价值指标。

That's how you charge per user, per thousand visits, per thousand what's its, whatever it is.

这就是您对每个用户、每千次访问、每千次收费的收费方式，无论它是什么。

Consumer companies, it's a little bit harder.

对于消费品公司来说，这有点困难。

Physical good products, it's really hard obviously because you have that physical good, the physics you can't get over.

物理上的好产品，显然这真的很难，因为你拥有那种物理上的好处，你无法克服的物理现象。

But the reason this is so powerful is because if you get everything else in your pricing wrong or not great, but you get that right, you tend to be okay when it comes to monetization.

但这之所以如此强大，是因为如果你定价中的其他所有内容都错了或不好，但你做对了，那么在货币化方面你往往会没事。

Patrick Campbell: And the reason is because, first, from an acquisition standpoint like acquiring customers, you end up making sure that you get Disney coming into your product, they're paying Disney prices, and then you get Johnny or Jane's startup coming in and they're paying Johnny and Jane prices.

帕特里克·坎贝尔：原因是因为，首先，从获取客户的角度来看，你最终要确保让迪士尼进入你的产品，他们支付迪士尼的价格，然后你让约翰尼或简的初创公司进来，他们支付约翰尼和简的价格。

You don't want them paying the same thing because obviously the value's different, even if they're consuming almost the same amount.

您不希望他们支付相同的费用，因为显然价值不同，即使他们消耗的金额几乎相同。

So this allows you to figure that line out.

所以这可以让你弄清楚这条线。

Patrick Campbell: And then what's really beautiful about it is churn tends to be about 20 to 25% lower because people will downgrade, but they're using...

Patrick Campbell：真正美妙的是，客户流失率往往会降低 20% 到 25% 左右，因为人们会降级，但他们正在使用……

you don't get this like, "I'm paying for so much and end up not using a lot of it." It's like, "Oh, I'm using eight seats this month, I'm going to downgrade," or it's just automatic.

你不会得到这样的感觉：“我花了这么多钱，但最终却没有使用很多。”就像，“哦，这个月我使用了八个座位，我要降级”，或者只是自动的。

And then your expansion revenue's typically double when you're using a particular value metric because instead of me having to resell you and being like, "Hey, Lenny, there's this really cool feature in this upper tier, do you want this?" And you're like, "I already use the product, I don't really want this." Instead, I just go, "Hey, Lenny, congratulations.

然后，当您使用特定的价值指标时，您的扩展收入通常会翻倍，因为我不必转售您并说：“嘿，莱尼，上层有一个非常酷的功能，您想要这个吗？”你会说，“我已经使用过这个产品了，我真的不想要这个。”相反，我只是说：“嘿，莱尼，恭喜你。

You now have 100 videos in your account.

您的帐户中现在有 100 个视频。

That's awesome.

太棒了。

You guys must be growing.

你们一定在成长。

I'm just going to bump you up to the 100-video plan.

我只是想让您升级到 100 个视频计划。

Let me know if you have any questions." It's just a very, very implicit way to get expansion revenue.

如果您有任何疑问，请告诉我。”这只是一种非常非常隐晦的获取扩张收入的方式。

So that's the thing pound for pound that's the best.

所以这就是同等价值的最好的东西。

Patrick Campbell: And then I would say if you have a lot of politics internally, which everyone does with pricing because it sits in the center of so many different teams, I would actually start with a price increase.

帕特里克·坎贝尔：然后我想说，如果你内部有很多政治因素，每个人都在定价方面这样做，因为它位于许多不同团队的中心，我实际上会从提价开始。

You should be increasing your overall price once per year if you're building.

如果您正在建造，您应该每年提高一次总体价格。

If you're not building and your support sucks and your NPS is low, then don't worry about it.

如果您没有进行构建并且您的支持很糟糕并且您的 NPS 很低，那么请不要担心。

But if your NPS is over 20, which is not a very high NPS, you should raise your prices once per year.

但如果您的 NPS 超过 20（这并不是很高的 NPS），您应该每年提高一次价格。

The reason I suggest that is because it gets all of the BS and all the politics on the mat.

我之所以这么建议，是因为它把所有的废话和所有的政治都摆在了台面上。

You're going to have to collect some data, you're going to have to prove it to sales, you're going to have to make sure you have the enablement, you're going to have to make sure your messaging is...

您将必须收集一些数据，您将必须向销售人员证明它，您将必须确保您拥有支持，您将必须确保您的消息传递......

Patrick Campbell: But it's a tight enough non-nebulous thing that you're doing versus a value metric where you can have a bunch of debates about this metric or that metric, and should you give 10 away versus 100 away.

帕特里克·坎贝尔：但与价值指标相比，这是一件足够严格、不模糊的事情，你可以就这个指标或那个指标进行一系列辩论，以及你应该放弃 10 个还是放弃 100 个。

It's a good way to rip the bandaid off.

这是撕掉创可贴的好方法。

And most companies don't change their actual number that they're charging once per every three years.

大多数公司不会改变每三年收取一次的实际费用。

So if you haven't done it for three years, you're overdue for it.

所以，如果你三年没有这样做，你就逾期了。

So it's a good one to kind of rip the bandaid off.

所以，撕掉创可贴是个好主意。

Lenny: So this episode already pound for pound I think is up there.

莱尼：所以我认为这一集已经很重要了。

This is amazing.

这太棒了。

I'm excited to get to the next topic, but first I'll plug.

我很高兴能进入下一个主题，但首先我要插话。

You wrote a guest post in my newsletter about pricing and we'll link to that in the show notes, and that goes deeper into this value metric and how to think about pricing.

您在我的时事通讯中写了一篇关于定价的客座文章，我们将在展会笔记中链接到该文章，这将更深入地探讨这个价值指标以及如何考虑定价。

So check that out.

所以检查一下。

Lenny: Next topic, retention.

莱尼：下一个主题是保留。

So when I think Patrick Campbell, I think pricing and retention.

因此，当我想到帕特里克·坎贝尔时，我想到的是定价和保留率。

So again, this could be its own podcast episode, but let's just pick one thing to talk about.

再说一次，这可能是它自己的播客节目，但我们只选择一件事来谈论。

What are the biggest mistakes people make, retention opportunities, or just hot take?

人们犯的最大错误是什么、保留机会或只是热门话题是什么？

Patrick Campbell: The reason I started writing about retention and publishing data on it is because I didn't want to be the pricing guy.

帕特里克·坎贝尔：我开始撰写有关保留和发布数据的文章的原因是因为我不想成为定价人员。

I was trying to basically differentiate myself and then I was trying to be the SaaS guy, but that's too broad.

我试图从根本上使自己与众不同，然后我试图成为 SaaS 人员，但这太宽泛了。

But anyway, so retention, the hottest of hottest takes, and this is the one to offend 90% of the list...

但无论如何，留存率是最热门中最热门的，而这个却冒犯了 90% 的名单……

no, it's not going to offend, but this is a product podcast, that's how I think about it.

不，这不会冒犯，但这是一个产品播客，这就是我的想法。

Product homies.

产品兄弟。

You fail at realizing most of the time that there are two types of retention.

大多数时候你没有意识到有两种类型的保留。

There is strategic retention and then there's tactical retention.

有战略保留，然后有战术保留。

Patrick Campbell: Strategic retention is all the stuff that you as a great product leader, a great product team are doing.

帕特里克·坎贝尔：战略保留是你作为一个伟大的产品领导者和一个伟大的产品团队正在做的所有事情。

Your ICPs, your time to value, road mapping, the right features, figuring out your mission metric, agonizing over every little thing, all the paper cuts of being a great product leader.

你的 ICP、实现价值的时间、路线图、正确的功能、确定你的任务指标、为每一件小事而烦恼，成为一名伟大的产品领导者的所有剪纸。

But because you're so focused and so biased towards that, you miss out typically on this thing we call tactical retention, and these are things like payment failures, term optimization, cancellation flows, offboarding, et cetera.

但因为你太专注并且对此有偏见，所以你通常会错过我们称之为战术保留的东西，这些东西包括付款失败、期限优化、取消流程、离职等。

And if you're past product market fit this area, this tactical retention, it's typically about 25 to 40% of your churn problem, which is a significant amount, but you don't really look at it because again, you're like, "I've got to go focus on features, I've got to do this, and I'm going to go be this great product leader."

如果你过去的产品市场适合这个领域，那么这种战术保留通常占你的流失问题的 25% 到 40%，这是一个很大的数字，但你并没有真正关注它，因为你会想，“我必须专注于功能，我必须这样做，我将成为这个伟大的产品领导者。”

Patrick Campbell: And so because product is so entrenched in that thinking that that problem can be solved with two months of work, it's not that much work putting in, basically, a marketing funnel when people's credit cards fail.

帕特里克·坎贝尔：因此，由于产品根深蒂固地认为这个问题可以通过两个月的工作来解决，所以当人们的信用卡失败时，基本上不需要投入太多的工作来建立营销渠道。

Not that hard, not rocket science.

没那么难，也不是火箭科学。

Doing offboarding, being really smart with offboarding.

进行离职，非常聪明地进行离职。

And one little tidbit.

还有一个小花絮。

I looked at two million cancellation flows.

我查看了 200 万取消流量。

We built some products for this, that's why I have this data, just to be clear.

我们为此构建了一些产品，这就是为什么我有这些数据，只是为了清楚起见。

But looked at two million cancellation flows and we found you have about 18 to 30 seconds when someone hits that cancel button, we found you should ask two questions.

但查看了 200 万个取消流程后，我们发现当有人点击取消按钮时，您有大约 18 到 30 秒的时间，我们发现您应该问两个问题。

One, "Why are you leaving?" Multiple choice.

一、“你为什么要走？”多项选择。

Don't do the free response.

不要做免费回复。

You get one out of 100 great responses, and the 99 are not great.

你会得到 100 条优秀回复中的 1 条，而 99 条都不是很好。

Patrick Campbell: And then the other question we found works really, really well is, "What did you like about the product?" And the reason that works so effectively is because that person's on a freight train to basically cancel.

帕特里克·坎贝尔：我们发现另一个非常非常有效的问题是，“您喜欢该产品的哪些方面？”之所以如此有效，是因为那个人在货运列车上基本上是要取消的。

They're like, "I'm already done.

他们就像是，“我已经完成了。

Oh yeah, this is why I'm leaving." The minute you ask them what they like, you're basically tapping into this nostalgia effect and you're stopping that freight train.

哦，是的，这就是我要离开的原因。”当你问他们喜欢什么的那一刻，你基本上就利用了这种怀旧效应，并且你正在停止货运列车。

And then when I have that information, it's great for a product team, it's great to figure out, "What's working, what's not?

然后，当我获得这些信息时，这对产品团队来说非常有用，能够弄清楚“什么有效，什么无效？

What should we do more of?

我们应该多做些什么？

Was this a good customer?"

这是好顾客吗？”

Patrick Campbell: But then based on their engagement data, their plan, whatever, all their firmographics about them plus their answers, then I can offer up a salvage offer or a pause plan or a maintenance plan or these types of things.

帕特里克·坎贝尔：但是根据他们的参与数据，他们的计划，无论如何，他们所有的公司信息加上他们的答案，然后我可以提供救助报价或暂停计划或维护计划或此类的东西。

But all this type of stuff, this is really, really powerful.

但所有这些类型的东西，这真的非常非常强大。

And I always suggest finance teams should just take this on because product teams are always going to be thinking so much more on the future rather than fixing this right now.

我总是建议财务团队应该承担这个任务，因为产品团队总是会更多地考虑未来，而不是立即解决这个问题。

But that's the hottest take I've got for retention.

但这是我对保留的最热门看法。

Lenny: That's a great, awesome take.

莱尼：这是一个非常棒的想法。

And I want to plug ProfitWell right here, actually.

实际上，我想在这里插入 ProfitWell。

I know you guys offer a product that does this and I've used it.

我知道你们提供了一种可以实现此目的的产品，并且我已经使用过它。

So I don't know if that's still true, I know after an acquisition, things change.

所以我不知道这是否仍然正确，我知道收购之后，情况会发生变化。

So I use ProfitWell for my newsletters.

所以我使用 ProfitWell 作为我的时事通讯。

I just plug it into my Stripe account and it's the most amazing free product because it just tells me everything I want to know.

我只需将它插入我的 Stripe 帐户，它就是最令人惊奇的免费产品，因为它可以告诉我我想知道的一切。

And then it's got this cool feature, you just turn it on and it does these things for you like it tells people, "Your credit card is about to expire." Hey, this card failed, you should try putting in a new card." So that's a cool reason to check out ProfitWell.

然后它有一个很酷的功能，你只需打开它，它就会为你做这些事情，就像它告诉人们，“你的信用卡即将过期。”嘿，这张卡失败了，你应该尝试插入一张新卡。”所以这是查看 ProfitWell 的一个很酷的理由。

Patrick Campbell: Thanks, man.

帕特里克·坎贝尔：谢谢，伙计。

I appreciate that.

我很欣赏这一点。

And it's actually cool because I think for us, because the fact that product teams don't really think about this stuff, we stumbled into this whole thesis that could be a whole episode, which is all the product features are done for you.

这实际上很酷，因为我认为对我们来说，因为产品团队并没有真正考虑这些东西，我们偶然发现了整个论文，这可能是一个完整的插曲，即所有产品功能都是为您完成的。

So what I mean by that is, you noticed this, but when you log in and set this up, you're not writing emails, you're not setting up the flows.

所以我的意思是，您注意到了这一点，但是当您登录并设置它时，您不是在写电子邮件，也不是在设置流程。

And the reason is because we have all this data from $30 billion in ARR flowing through our metrics product that we can study and understand what works and what doesn't.

原因是因为我们拥有流经我们指标产品的 300 亿美元 ARR 的所有数据，我们可以研究并了解哪些有效，哪些无效。

Patrick Campbell: And that kind of stumbling that is useful for folks is what we discovered is this anti-active usage type product, it retains itself at a really, really high rate because people are just getting the value and they don't have to use it.

帕特里克·坎贝尔：我们发现这种对人们有用的绊脚石是这种反活跃使用类型的产品，它以非常非常高的速度保留下来，因为人们只是获得了价值，而不必使用它。

And so what we found is a little bonus thing on retention.

所以我们发现，对于保留率来说，还有一点额外的好处。

When we look at churn rates across different types of products, those products that are workflow products you use every single day or mostly every single day, or those products you don't have to log into but you still get the value, that's where the lowest churn rates are, the highest retention.

当我们查看不同类型产品的流失率时，那些您每天或几乎每天都使用的工作流程产品，或者那些您不必登录但仍然可以获得价值的产品，就是流失率最低、保留率最高的地方。

Anything in the middle, it's like death.

中间的任何事情，就像死亡一样。

And this is why ProfitWell metrics ended up being free because we were just like, "It's terrible to build a metrics and analytics product.

这就是为什么 ProfitWell 指标最终是免费的，因为我们就像，“构建一个指标和分析产品是可怕的。

It's so hard because people just don't appreciate how much work goes into it, therefore they don't retain at a high rate, they're not willing to pay that much," et cetera.

这太难了，因为人们不明白为此付出了多少努力，因此他们的留存率不高，他们不愿意支付那么多钱，”等等。

Lenny: I think that alone is a really interesting story, and I don't know if we should get too deep, but just to highlight what you just said, so many startups build an analytics product that it's just a better way to measure and track all the stuff that's going on.

莱尼：我认为这本身就是一个非常有趣的故事，我不知道我们是否应该太深入，但只是为了强调你刚才所说的，如此多的初创公司构建了一个分析产品，它只是衡量和跟踪所有正在发生的事情的更好方法。

And what you've found is you won't make money doing that, people don't want to pay for a SaaS analytics tool.

您发现这样做不会赚钱，人们不想为 SaaS 分析工具付费。

Patrick Campbell: You have two options.

帕特里克·坎贝尔：你有两个选择。

You go up market and you pretty much become a data product with a UI or you go super niche.

如果你进入高端市场，你几乎会成为一个带有用户界面的数据产品，或者你会进入超级利基市场。

And even super niche, it's super hard and it's just because, I don't know, everyone's trying to kill a spreadsheet, and it's like, "You're not going to kill a spreadsheet." All real analysts will do everything in a spreadsheet.

即使是超级利基市场，它也非常困难，这只是因为，我不知道，每个人都试图杀死电子表格，就像，“你不会杀死电子表格。”所有真正的分析师都会在电子表格中完成所有工作。

So for us it was we want to give you a clean UI and then we want to help you get this data into spreadsheets or email or whatever you're using for your databases, things like that.

因此，对于我们来说，我们希望为您提供一个干净的用户界面，然后我们希望帮助您将这些数据放入电子表格或电子邮件或您用于数据库的任何内容中，诸如此类。

Lenny: Yeah.

莱尼：是的。

I don't want to make this an ad for ProfitWell, but it's like founders come to me with pitches of, "Hey, we've built this sweet analytics." So I'm like, "Just look up what ProfitWell is giving away for free, that's going to be a high bar to exceed."

我不想将此作为 ProfitWell 的广告，但这就像创始人来找我说：“嘿，我们已经建立了这个甜蜜的分析。”所以我想，“看看 ProfitWell 免费赠送什么，这将是一个需要超越的高标准。”

Patrick Campbell: Yeah.

帕特里克·坎贝尔：是的。

Yeah.

是的。

We were going to try to sell it.

我们打算尝试卖掉它。

We were trying to sell it in the beginning, but what ended up happening is we ran into all this, that's why we didn't.

我们一开始想卖掉它，但最终我们遇到了这一切，所以我们没有卖掉它。

Lenny: All right, back on track.

莱尼：好吧，回到正轨。

Topic number five, shipping.

主题五，运输。

What have you learned about shipping?

关于航运，你学到了什么？

What are mistakes people make when trying to ship faster, ship more efficiently?

人们在尝试更快、更高效地发货时会犯哪些错误？

Patrick Campbell: Yeah.

帕特里克·坎贝尔：是的。

The bratty thing here is that real professional ship.

这里最讨厌的是那艘真正的专业船。

At the end of the day, real...

到最后，真正的...

I don't care what if you're a marketer or product person, engineer, ops person, people ops, real professional ship, and they ship it a pretty high frequency for whatever they're doing.

我不在乎，如果你是营销人员或产品人员、工程师、运营人员、人员运营人员、真正的专业船舶，无论他们正在做什么，他们都会以相当高的频率交付它。

And so the thing that we thought a lot about is, in my opinion, your tempo framework, and I'll explain a little bit more of what that means in a second, is more important than your org design.

因此，在我看来，我们深思熟虑的事情是你的节奏框架，我将在一秒钟内解释更多这意味着什么，它比你的组织设计更重要。

And so if you've ever had a team that seems really, really smart, but they're always planning or they don't really ship a lot, or you've had trouble where everyone gets it at the leadership level, but then the team below them and below them seems to be kind of going in a different direction, you probably don't have enough alignment and you don't have enough alignment on what good looks like in terms of tempo.

因此，如果你曾经有一个看起来非常非常聪明的团队，但他们总是在计划，或者他们并没有真正交付很多东西，或者你遇到了麻烦，每个人都在领导层得到它，但他们下面的团队和他们下面的团队似乎朝着不同的方向前进，那么你可能没有足够的一致性，并且在节奏方面没有足够的一致性。

Patrick Campbell: And so the way we looked at this was we have to establish mission metric and guiding principles at the top so, what do we do?

帕特里克·坎贝尔：所以我们看待这个问题的方式是我们必须在高层建立任务指标和指导原则，那么我们该怎么办？

How are we measuring it?

我们如何衡量它？

And how we're going to get there?

我们将如何实现这一目标？

So for us was we automate subscription growth.

所以对我们来说，我们是自动化订阅增长。

Our mission metric was the amount of revenue that was on ProfitWell because that was good from acquisition, but it also meant we were doing our jobs.

我们的任务指标是 ProfitWell 的收入金额，因为收购带来的收入很好，但这也意味着我们正在做好我们的工作。

Then how we're going to get there.

然后我们将如何到达那里。

We want to be the most helpful brand in SaaS.

我们希望成为 SaaS 领域最有帮助的品牌。

And then we also we're going to do it for you, this whole thing that I just talked about.

然后我们也会为你做这件事，我刚才谈到的整件事。

Patrick Campbell: Then what we did is we established that at the leadership level, every org leader, so marketing, sales, et cetera, they need a framework that fits into that overall.

帕特里克·坎贝尔：然后我们所做的是，在领导层，每个组织领导者，营销、销售等，他们都需要一个适合整体的框架。

So marketing at ProfitWell was this whole inbound media, so lots of podcast, video series, et cetera.

所以 ProfitWell 的营销就是整个入站媒体，所以有很多播客、视频系列等等。

And the most important part of that was they needed to determine what good looked like in terms of shipping.

其中最重要的部分是他们需要确定运输方面的好处。

So if we're like, "Hey, we're doing sales," blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, or marketing in this case, "this many episodes per month, it's this many product launches per month, this many big product launches per quarter," whatever it is.

因此，如果我们说，“嘿，我们正在做销售”，等等，等等，或者在这种情况下进行营销，“每个月有这么多剧集，每个月有这么多产品发布，每个季度有这么多大型产品发布，”无论是什么。

Patrick Campbell: And then your leadership is basically a conversation of, "Great, that's what good looks like, we agree.

帕特里克·坎贝尔：然后你的领导力基本上就是一场对话，“太棒了，这就是美好的样子，我们同意。

How do we close that gap?" And then all of those conversations are like, "Okay, you only shipped one thing per quarter, we want to do one per month.

我们如何缩小这个差距？”然后所有这些对话都是这样的，“好吧，你们每季度只发货一件东西，我们想每月发货一件。

Why?"

为什么？”

"Well, I don't have enough resources.": We solve that problem or we figure out how to get the more resources, then they're not doing it again.

“好吧，我没有足够的资源。”：我们解决了这个问题，或者我们弄清楚如何获得更多资源，然后他们就不会再这样做了。

"Okay, why?"

“好吧，为什么？”

"Well, there's this problem.": And then all of a sudden you start to create this very high output team across the board, and you also have this alignment so you don't wake up nine months into someone being at your company and being like, "Well, I think Tim sucks."

“嗯，有这个问题。”：然后突然之间，你开始全面创建一个非常高产出的团队，并且你也有这种协调，这样你就不会在有人在你公司工作九个月后醒来，然后说，“嗯，我认为蒂姆很糟糕。”

"Well, there's this problem.": And it's like, "Well, why did you just all of a sudden wake up and think Tim sucks."

“好吧，有这个问题。”：就像，“好吧，为什么你突然醒来并认为蒂姆很糟糕。”

"Well, he's not shipping blah, blah, blah, blah.": "Well, it's probably an org problem rather than a Tim problem," because again, you vetted Tim.

“嗯，他不会发布废话，废话，废话，废话。”：“嗯，这可能是组织问题而不是蒂姆问题，”因为你再次审查了蒂姆。

Tim was at this other company and apparently was a really great rockstar.

蒂姆在另一家公司工作，显然是一位非常伟大的摇滚明星。

So what's the difference here?

那么这里有什么区别呢？

You screwed up the hiring?

你把招聘搞砸了？

Well, maybe because that is really, really hard, but most of the time you just haven't set an expectation of what good looks like in terms of tempo, and then you haven't had that constant conversation to make sure that Tim has what he needs in order to ship.

好吧，也许是因为这真的非常非常困难，但大多数时候你只是没有设定节奏方面的预期，然后你就没有进行持续的对话来确保 Tim 拥有他需要的东西来交付。

Lenny: What was a big learning, I guess, in doing that?

莱尼：我想，这样做最大的收获是什么？

Is that just something you built up over time of we need to create this tempo at ProfitWell?

这是否只是您随着时间的推移而建立的，我们需要在 ProfitWell 创造这种节奏？

Patrick Campbell: Yeah.

帕特里克·坎贝尔：是的。

Complete misalignment if you don't call it out on what good looks like, just complete misalignment.

如果你不说出来什么是好的，那就完全错位了，那就完全错位了。

Like so-and-so is going and building, they think one product launch per quarter.

就像某某正在建设一样，他们认为每个季度都会推出一种产品。

Or I'm sitting there and I'm like, "Well, we should have a medium one per month and then we should have a big one per quarter." Complete misalignment.

或者我坐在那里，我想，“好吧，我们应该每个月有一个中等的，然后我们应该每个季度有一个大的。”完全错位。

And if you don't have a way to talk about that, some sort of nexus to have that conversation, you end up not having it, and then you end up creating this friction and resentment on both sides because everyone thinks, again, "Tim isn't doing well." And it's like, "That's not what's happening.

如果你没有办法谈论这个问题，没有某种联系来进行这种对话，那么你最终就无法进行对话，然后你最终会在双方之间制造这种摩擦和怨恨，因为每个人都会再次认为“蒂姆做得不好。”就像，“事实并非如此。

It's just the expectations aren't set."

只是期望还没有设定。”

Patrick Campbell: And then what was really cool is that you start to find out that the why they aren't hitting what good looks like is all solvable, and most of the time it's this team isn't talking to this team.

帕特里克·坎贝尔：然后真正酷的是你开始发现为什么他们没有达到看起来不错的效果都是可以解决的，而且大多数时候是这个团队没有与这个团队交谈。

"Oh, great.

“哦，太好了。

Well, marketing wants to do these launches, product isn't providing them stuff.

好吧，营销人员想要进行这些发布，但产品并没有为他们提供东西。

All right, let's get these two people together, have this conversation because we didn't have product marketing or official product marketing." They have this conversation and then all of a sudden it's like, "All right, Neil, you need to provide one thing a month.

好吧，让我们让这两个人聚在一起，进行一次对话，因为我们没有产品营销或官方产品营销。”他们进行了这样的对话，然后突然间，“好吧，尼尔，你需要每个月提供一件事。

There's so much stuff we've built, a lot of it we haven't announced, you just need to provide one thing a month.

我们已经构建了很多东西，其中很多我们还没有宣布，你只需要每月提供一件东西。

Marketing will worry about how to position it in a way that isn't too far, isn't overselling it, but also gets us something per month, and you can approve that positioning." And then all of a sudden you start getting this tempo going, which obviously is the goal.

营销人员会担心如何以一种不太远、不过分销售的方式定位它，但每个月还能给我们带来一些东西，你可以批准这个定位。”然后突然你开始按照这个节奏前进，这显然是我们的目标。

Lenny: Reminds me, David Sacks has this awesome post called The Cadence around how marketing and product and sales should operate and create this kind of cadence.

莱尼：提醒我了，大卫·萨克斯（David Sacks）有一篇很棒的文章，名为“节奏”，围绕营销、产品和销售应如何运作并创造这种节奏。

So being aligned but also offset schedule, which will link to them in the show notes if you haven't seen it.

因此，要保持一致，还要抵消时间表，如果您还没有看到的话，它将在演出注释中链接到它们。

Lenny: Next topic.

莱尼：下一个话题。

First principles thinking.

第一性原理思维。

As a renaissance man of a brain, I feel like you've spent a lot of time thinking about from first principles and in our conversations you always have really interesting approaches to things.

作为一个有头脑的文艺复兴时期的人，我觉得你花了很多时间从基本原则出发思考，在我们的谈话中你总是有非常有趣的处理事物的方法。

What have you learned about actually implementing first principle thinking, which people are always talking about.

关于实际实施人们总是在谈论的第一原理思维，你学到了什么？

How do I first principle?

我如何遵循第一原则？

Patrick Campbell: Yeah, people always talk about it.

帕特里克·坎贝尔：是的，人们总是谈论它。

And there are no good courses that I have found on first principles thinking.

我还没有找到关于第一原理思维的好课程。

There are good blog posts, but the good blog posts kind of explain what it is, and then that's it.

有一些很好的博客文章，但是好的博客文章解释了它是什么，仅此而已。

It's like, "This is what it is, and here's an example." And most of them quote Elon Musk about rockets and breaking down the different parts.

就像，“就是这样，这是一个例子。”他们中的大多数人都引用了埃隆·马斯克关于火箭和分解不同部件的内容。

So what I kind of found is there's the five whys, which I think someone's talked before or at least I've read it in the newsletter before, which is just you keep asking why.

所以我发现有五个为什么，我想以前有人谈过，或者至少我以前在时事通讯中读过它，这只是你不断问为什么。

Kind of, "Well, this is this way."

有点像，“好吧，就是这样。”

"Why is that?": I found the model that people who aren't great at first principal thinking or aren't great at talking about it that kind of helps them unlock is this thing called problem, cause, solution.

“为什么会这样？”：我发现，那些一开始不擅长主要思考或不善于谈论它的人可以帮助他们解开这个模型，即所谓的问题、原因、解决方案。

So I learned this in debate in college and high school, and it basically is you have a problem that you're trying to solve.

所以我在大学和高中的辩论中学到了这一点，基本上就是你有一个你想要解决的问题。

Well, you can't actually solve a problem.

好吧，你实际上无法解决问题。

So if we talk about world hunger, you can't just solve world hunger because it's kind of the symptom, it's this problem that exists.

因此，如果我们谈论世界饥饿，你不能仅仅解决世界饥饿，因为它是一种症状，而是存在的问题。

"Why is that?": Well then I want to break down what are all the causes of world hunger?

“这是为什么？”：那么我想分析一下世界饥饿的原因是什么？

And it's a little more brainstormy when you have these conversations with folks, especially again when they struggle with this.

当你与人们进行这些对话时，尤其是当他们为此苦苦挣扎时，这会更加集思广益。

And all of a sudden I could list out all the causes, irrigation crisis, aid not getting to where it needs to be, famines, drought, et cetera.

突然之间，我可以列出所有的原因，灌溉危机，援助没有到达需要的地方，饥荒，干旱等等。

And then what I can do is I can rank those causes in terms of magnitude.

然后我能做的就是根据严重程度对这些原因进行排名。

So if we're trying to solve world hunger, and for some reason we discovered irrigation was the biggest problem, if we solved irrigation, everything would be great, well then I'm going to align my solutions to all of those different causes.

因此，如果我们试图解决世界饥饿问题，并且出于某种原因我们发现灌溉是最大的问题，如果我们解决了灌溉问题，一切都会很棒，那么我将根据所有这些不同的原因调整我的解决方案。

And you get this nice alignment between, well, I can solve a cause, and if I solve the cause that's big enough and proper enough, I'm going to eventually solve the actual problem or mitigate the problem, I should say.

我应该说，我可以解决一个原因，如果我解决足够大和足够正确的原因，我将最终解决实际问题或减轻问题。

"Why is that?": So that's the framework that I found really, really useful.

“为什么会这样？”：这就是我发现非常非常有用的框架。

And also, it's great for using for presentations, it's great for a mission, it's great for all of these different things because it's a little bit more actionable than just the five whys, which is more of a way to have a conversation.

而且，它非常适合用于演示，非常适合执行任务，非常适合所有这些不同的事情，因为它比五个为什么更具可操作性，这更像是一种对话的方式。

Lenny: So the way you operationalize this, say problem, cause, solution.

莱尼：所以你实施这个的方式，比如问题、原因、解决方案。

You're saying on strategy templates, you write out, "Here's the problem we're trying to solve, here's the source of the issue, and then here's how we're approaching it." Can you talk a bit more about how you implement this at your company and the people you work with?

你在策略模板上写下，“这是我们试图解决的问题，这是问题的根源，然后是我们处理它的方式。”您能多谈谈您如何在您的公司以及与您一起工作的人员中实施这一点吗？

Patrick Campbell: Yeah, totally.

帕特里克·坎贝尔：是的，完全可以。

So I'll say big, medium and small things, and I'll try to be really quick.

所以我会说大、中、小事情，而且我会尽量说得很快。

So big things it's like, "What are we facing?"

这么大的事情就像“我们面临着什么？”

Patrick Campbell: "Oh, we're going to try to charge for this metrics product.

帕特里克·坎贝尔：“哦，我们将尝试对这个指标产品收费。

Now there's a bunch of competitors.

现在有很多竞争对手。

The customers don't really care about it."

顾客并不真正关心它。”

Patrick Campbell: So we have this problem and the problem is growth.

帕特里克·坎贝尔：所以我们有这个问题，问题是增长。

How do we grow a product like this?

我们如何种植这样的产品？

How do we grow our company?

我们如何发展我们的公司？

And what's really interesting about a big problem or a nebulous problem like that is you end up having a lot of conversations about the problem, which I think is more useful sometimes about, "Well, what are we actually trying to do?

对于一个大问题或像这样的模糊问题，真正有趣的是你最终会就这个问题进行很多对话，我认为有时更有用的是，“好吧，我们实际上想做什么？

Let's get alignment as much as possible." And then it's like, "Okay.

让我们尽可能地保持一致。”然后就像是，“好吧。

Well, what are the causes of our growth problem?"

那么，我们的增长问题的原因是什么？”

Patrick Campbell: "Well, people aren't willing to pay for metrics.

帕特里克·坎贝尔：“嗯，人们不愿意为指标付费。

Getting accuracy is really, really hard.

获得准确性真的非常非常困难。

Actually, the market stance," all these other things.

事实上，市场立场，”所有这些其他的事情。

"Well, what are some of the solutions?": "Well, we could do this, could do this, could do this."

“嗯，有哪些解决方案？”：“嗯，我们可以这样做，可以这样做，可以这样做。”

"Well, what are some of the solutions?": And normally what ends up happening is the solution ends up being kind of an approach.

“那么，有哪些解决方案？”：通常最终发生的情况是解决方案最终成为一种方法。

So our approach that mitigated or solved for some of these causes and mitigate the problem was freemium, and then these paid products that were all pay-for-performance because with pay-for-performance, you could charge a significant amount more in a market that only has 100,000 logos, which is a really small market.

因此，我们缓解或解决其中一些原因并缓解问题的方法是免费增值，然后这些付费产品都是按性能付费的，因为通过按性能付费，您可以在只有 100,000 个徽标的市场中收取更高的费用，这是一个非常小的市场。

And so that kind of an example there.

这就是一个例子。

"Well, what are some of the solutions?": Medium and small, let's talk about a support ticket.

“那么，有哪些解决方案呢？”：中小，我们来谈谈支持票。

This person's pissed off.

这人生气了。

They're coming in, they're pissed off.

他们进来了，他们很生气。

What are the causes?

原因是什么？

Well, there's a lot of different causes that were probably like, "Oh, we didn't get back to them in time, and then we gave a crappy solution, we gave this..." It just kind of allows us to look at the problem.

嗯，有很多不同的原因，可能是这样的，“哦，我们没有及时回复他们，然后我们给出了一个蹩脚的解决方案，我们给出了这个......”它只是让我们能够审视问题。

And so it's more of a way of thinking on that level.

所以这更多的是在这个层面上的一种思考方式。

And it's not happening.

但这并没有发生。

We're not going to have an hour-long conversation about a support ticket.

我们不会就支持票进行长达一个小时的对话。

But the support folks that I've talked to about this, they go, "Okay, cool.

但我与支持人员讨论过这个问题，他们说：“好吧，酷。

Why is he upset?"

他为什么不高兴？”

"Well, we didn't get the answer in time.": Okay, my first line is going to be, "I understand we didn't get you an answer quick enough.

“好吧，我们没有及时得到答复。”：好的，我的第一句话是，“我知道我们没有足够快地给你答复。

Apologies for that." It just allows them to have a little bit of an extra second to think through things and move forward with that.

对此表示歉意。”它只是让他们有一点额外的时间来思考事情并继续前进。

Lenny: I love that.

莱尼：我喜欢这个。

I love that big example and a small example.

我喜欢那个大例子和一个小例子。

Audio: This episode is brought to you by Dovetail, the customer insights platform for teams that gets you from data to insights fast, no matter the method.

音频：本集由 Dovetail 为您带来，Dovetail 是一个面向团队的客户洞察平台，无论采用何种方法，都可以让您快速从数据获得洞察。

There's so much customer data to get through from user interviews to NPS, sales calls, usability tests, support tickets, app reviews.

从用户访谈到 NPS、销售电话、可用性测试、支持票证、应用程序评论，需要获取大量客户数据。

It's a lot.

很多。

And you know that if you're building something, hidden in that data are the insights that will lead you to building better products.

而且您知道，如果您正在构建某些东西，则隐藏在数据中的见解将引导您​​构建更好的产品。

And that's where Dovetail can help.

这就是 Dovetail 可以提供帮助的地方。

Audio: Dovetail allows you to quickly analyze customer data from any source and transform it into evidence-based insights that your whole team can access.

音频：Dovetail 允许您快速分析任何来源的客户数据，并将其转化为整个团队都可以访问的基于证据的见解。

If you're a product manager who needs insights to motivate your team, a designer validating your next big feature, or a researcher who needs to analyze fast, Dovetail is the collaborative insights platform your whole team can use.

如果您是需要洞察力来激励团队的产品经理、验证下一个重要功能的设计师，或者需要快速分析的研究人员，Dovetail 是整个团队都可以使用的协作洞察平台。

Go to dovetailapp.com/lenny to get started today for free.

立即前往 dovetailapp.com/lenny 免费开始使用。

That's dovetailapp.com/lenny.

那是 dovetailapp.com/lenny。

Lenny: All right.

莱尼：好吧。

Next topic, customer research.

下一个主题，客户研究。

I feel like you have a pretty interesting perspective on custom research, so let's go into it.

我觉得您对定制研究有非常有趣的看法，所以让我们深入探讨一下。

Patrick Campbell: I think I have the 85-year-old curmudgeonly man perspective on customer research.

Patrick Campbell：我认为我对客户研究有着 85 岁脾气暴躁的男人的看法。

So here's the thing.

所以事情是这样的。

Everything in your business, it does not matter what type of business you have, everything is used to drive someone to a point of conversion or justify the product or the price that you're offering up.

您业务中的一切，无论您拥有什么类型的业务，一切都用于推动某人达到转化点或证明您提供的产品或价格合理。

That customer is a human being you're driving to that point of conversion and it's your job to understand how they perceive you, how they perceive their problem, how they perceive the world around them, around your products.

客户是你正在推动转变的人，你的工作就是了解他们如何看待你，他们如何看待他们的问题，他们如何看待他们周围的世界和你的产品。

Patrick Campbell: We all know this on a philosophical level, but here are some fun facts.

帕特里克·坎贝尔：我们在哲学层面上都知道这一点，但这里有一些有趣的事实。

So one, only one in five companies have buyer personas or ICPs, only one in five.

因此，只有五分之一的公司拥有买家角色或 ICP，只有五分之一。

So we talk about this all the time, we retweet the articles, we give the advice, so many of us give the advice.

所以我们一直在谈论这个，我们转发文章，我们给出建议，我们很多人都给出了建议。

But then we look at our own companies, only one in five have some sort of segmentation ICPs.

但我们看看我们自己的公司，只有五分之一拥有某种细分 ICP。

And then only one out of 10 companies actually do customer research or development on a quarterly basis.

只有十分之一的公司实际上按季度进行客户研究或开发。

This should be a continuous thing, it should be a monthly, weekly type thing.

这应该是一个持续的事情，应该是每月、每周类型的事情。

Not saying you're sending up surveys or having all these conversations on a weekly basis, but only one out of 10 are doing quarterly.

并不是说您每周都会发送调查或进行所有这些对话，但只有十分之一的人每季度进行一次。

So that means the number they're doing monthly is even smaller than that.

所以这意味着他们每月做的事情甚至比这个还要少。

And I just think that's insane.

我只是觉得这太疯狂了。

Patrick Campbell: And when we look at all data, and we have a lot of data on this, and this is something where I've been talking about customer development for a long time.

帕特里克·坎贝尔：当我们查看所有数据时，我们有很多这方面的数据，这就是我长期以来一直在谈论客户开发的内容。

Everything is better.

一切都更好了。

Everything is better.

一切都更好了。

NPS is higher for organizations that have customer development functions or even just ICPs or buyer personas, depending on what framework you're using.

对于具有客户开发功能甚至只有 ICP 或买家角色的组织来说，NPS 更高，具体取决于您使用的框架。

Willingness to pay is typically higher.

支付意愿通常较高。

The funnel is more efficient.

漏斗更有效。

LTV to CAC is normally much, much higher.

LTV 与 CAC 之比通常要高得多。

All those growth numbers, you're typically growing in a much higher rate, like a 15, 20%, not a small delta, 15-20% higher rate.

所有这些增长数字，通常会以更高的速度增长，比如 15%、20%，而不是一个小增量，15-20%。

Retention's better.

保留效果更好。

All these things are better.

所有这些事情都变得更好了。

Patrick Campbell: And the thing that, I think, 20 years ago or 10 years ago you didn't have to do customer development because, and this is where Keith is just like customer research is dumb or whatever his famous quote is, but you didn't have to do it because there just wasn't a lot of stuff out there and we all were riding the wave of the internet.

帕特里克·坎贝尔：我认为，20 年前或 10 年前，你不必进行客户开发，因为基思就认为客户研究是愚蠢的，或者不管他的名言是什么，但你不必这样做，因为那里没有很多东西，而我们都在乘着互联网的浪潮。

But now the market's harder and harder.

但现在市场越来越难了。

So what are you going to do?

那么你要做什么？

Are you just going to keep throwing stuff up against the wall or are you going to actually do the stuff that all of us talk about doing and actually do the research?

你会继续把东西扔到墙上，还是会真正做我们所有人都在谈论的事情并实际进行研究？

And the research is hard.

而且研究难度很大。

It's never going to be 100% accurate because you're going to have to use your judgment, but that's your job.

它永远不会100%准确，因为你必须运用你的判断，但这就是你的工作。

Patrick Campbell: And so that's more of a rant, I guess, than a hot take.

帕特里克·坎贝尔：所以我想这更像是一种咆哮，而不是一个热门观点。

But I also think this is one of those things that AI starts solving, especially all this generative AI because now you can just throw all that stuff into a workload and then all of a sudden you'll get back a lot of the sentiment or all that kind stuff so you don't even to do the hard part anymore.

但我也认为这是人工智能开始解决的问题之一，尤其是所有这些生成式人工智能，因为现在你可以将所有这些东西扔进工作负载中，然后突然间你会得到很多情绪或所有类似的东西，所以你甚至不再做困难的部分。

Yeah, that's my rant.

是的，这就是我的吐槽。

Lenny: Love the rant.

莱尼：喜欢咆哮。

Maybe one follow-up question.

也许还有一个后续问题。

Why do you think it is that companies don't do this?

您认为为什么公司不这样做？

I love the point you made of the retweeting, "Yeah, research is great." Writing blogs that research is use useful, "We've got to do research." Why do you think companies don't do it?

我喜欢你转发的观点，“是的，研究很棒。”撰写研究有用的博客，“我们必须进行研究。”您认为公司为什么不这样做？

And then what's one thing that maybe they could do tomorrow that'll bring them closer down that path?

那么他们明天可以做的一件事是什么，可以让他们更接近这条道路呢？

Patrick Campbell: The one thing you can do, put a number on a whiteboard.

帕特里克·坎贝尔：你能做的一件事就是在白板上写一个数字。

You're going to have 10 customer conversations a month, just 10 non-sales conversations.

您每月将进行 10 次客户对话，其中只有 10 次非销售对话。

You're just going to talk to 10 people.

你只需与 10 个人交谈。

Or you're going to send one survey.

或者您要发送一份调查。

And people are terrible at sending surveys.

人们不擅长发送调查。

Surveys are actually great.

调查实际上很棒。

You just have to be good at sending them.

你只需要善于发送它们即可。

And good, it's not a high bar, it just means that you have 30 to 45 seconds of someone's time unless you're compensating them.

很好，这不是一个很高的标准，它只是意味着你有某人 30 到 45 秒的时间，除非你要补偿他们。

And don't send 45-question surveys by email where the first question is, "What's your email?" Don't do that.

并且不要通过电子邮件发送 45 个问题的调查，其中第一个问题是“您的电子邮件是什么？”不要那样做。

But just put a number on the board.

但只要在黑板上写一个数字即可。

Patrick Campbell: I think the reason we don't do it is because it was, quote-unquote, "easy" to get away with not doing it.

帕特里克·坎贝尔：我认为我们不这样做的原因是，不言而喻，不这样做“很容易”逃脱惩罚。

If you really think about a funded environment...

如果你真的考虑一个资金环境......

and some products are so paradigm-shifting that the biggest misconception about customer research is I have to listen to them.

有些产品的范式转变如此之大，以至于对客户研究最大的误解是我必须倾听他们的意见。

You don't have to listen to them at all, you just have to understand where they are, and then you're filtering all of that with all this other data and then you're making a decision and you're earning your paycheck as a product person.

你根本不必听他们的，你只需要了解他们在哪里，然后你用所有其他数据过滤所有这些，然后你做出决定，你就可以作为产品人员赚取薪水。

Typically, it's the product person, but also in marketing.

通常是产品人员，但也包括营销人员。

Patrick Campbell: So I think it's just one of those things where you could get away with not doing it.

帕特里克·坎贝尔：所以我认为这只是那些你不做就能逃脱处罚的事情之一。

Now though, the way the market's going, you're just starting to see this more and more, you're starting to see more tooling.

但现在，随着市场的发展，你开始越来越多地看到这一点，你开始看到更多的工具。

The reason you're seeing more tooling is because they're starting to connect it to actually being useful rather than you having to set up your own customer development program.

您看到更多工具的原因是因为他们开始将其与实际有用联系起来，而不是您必须建立自己的客户开发计划。

I think the other reason typically people haven't had to do this is because there's a lot of brute forcing that's done in startup land and it only lasts so long.

我认为人们通常不必这样做的另一个原因是，在初创企业中存在很多暴力行为，而且这种行为只能持续很长时间。

Patrick Campbell: So all of these companies that raise a bunch of money, get the $100 million dollar exit, everyone's clapping because it's a big number, but cap table screwed, everything's bad.

帕特里克·坎贝尔：所以所有这些筹集了大量资金、获得 1 亿美元退出的公司，每个人都在鼓掌，因为这是一个很大的数字，但股权结构表搞砸了，一切都很糟糕。

It's a win because it's a win, but all of those companies are ones who were able to brute force to a certain level and they never learned how to actually understand their market or their customer.

这是一场胜利，因为它是一场胜利，但所有这些公司都能够在一定程度上使用暴力，但他们从未学会如何真正了解他们的市场或客户。

And I think that that kind of story will continue to happen as long as we have a lot of capital flowing in the market.

我认为只要市场上有大量资金流动，这种故事就会继续发生。

But I would rather not be that company.

但我宁愿不成为那样的公司。

I would rather be the company that gets the $100 million, 200 million exit with bootstrapping, or builds the billion-dollar annual revenue company because I know my market, I know my customer so well.

我宁愿成为一家通过自力更生获得 1 亿美元、2 亿美元退出的公司，或者建立年收入数十亿美元的公司，因为我了解我的市场，我非常了解我的客户。

Lenny: Talking to customers is good, you should do it.

莱尼：与客户交谈很好，你应该这样做。

Great reminder.

很好的提醒。

People are going to listen to this like, "Yes, we should do this," and then we'll just move on.

人们会听到这样的话，“是的，我们应该这样做”，然后我们就会继续前进。

And then-

然后——

Patrick Campbell: My joke when I give talks is, "Only 20% of you are going to do this when I give a talk on it, and so I'm not even going to talk deeply on it.

帕特里克·坎贝尔：我在演讲时开玩笑说，“当我演讲时，只有 20% 的人会这么做，所以我什至不会深入谈论它。

You 20%, come talk to me, I've got a whole framework for you," that type of a thing because I think people just nod their heads and they tweet it, and they just don't end up doing it.

你们这 20% 的人，来跟我谈谈，我已经为你们准备了一个完整的框架，”这样的事情，因为我认为人们只是点头然后发推文，但他们最终并没有这样做。

Lenny: Status quo is hard to overcome sometimes.

莱尼：有时很难克服现状。

We're onto our eighth topic, we've got three to go, and it's on competitive intelligence.

我们现在进入第八个主题，还有三个主题，它是关于竞争情报的。

And this touches on a really interesting part of your background that I don't know a lot of people know.

这涉及到你背景中一个非常有趣的部分，我知道很多人都不知道。

Patrick Campbell: Yeah.

帕特里克·坎贝尔：是的。

So my background, I started my career...

所以我的背景，我开始了我的职业生涯......

I worked in US Intelligence, I worked for NSA.

我在美国情报部门工作，在国家安全局工作。

And I was just a entry level intel analyst, basically, I was only there for just over a year.

我只是一名入门级英特尔分析师，基本上，我只在那里呆了一年多。

And what was interesting is you get taught first principles thinking in so many different ways because you're solving essentially puzzles every day.

有趣的是，你会学到以多种不同方式思考的第一原理，因为你每天都在解决本质上的难题。

Now those puzzles are finding a bad guy or a gal or finding this piece of information.

现在这些谜题是找到一个坏人或一个女孩，或者找到这条信息。

Those are all the puzzles, but you have to think through how to figure this out.

这些都是谜题，但你必须思考如何解决这个问题。

And a lot of those puzzles involve, "You have these number of entities, how are they going to react?" And you're trying to predict how they're going to react, and you're also trying to help figure out how you're going to react or act in the context of them, so like node analysis, basically.

很多谜题都涉及“你有这么多数量的实体，它们将如何反应？”你试图预测他们将如何反应，你也试图帮助弄清楚你将如何在他们的背景下做出反应或行动，基本上就像节点分析一样。

Patrick Campbell: And what's interesting from a startup or a business perspective is I think that don't focus on your competitors is terrible advice.

帕特里克·坎贝尔：从初创公司或商业角度来看，有趣的是我认为不关注竞争对手是一个糟糕的建议。

It's amazing advice for product teams.

对于产品团队来说，这是一个很棒的建议。

When you have a competitive intelligence program or you have competitive intel, I try never to share that with product ever because products should just focus on the customer, they should not give two craps what's going on with competitor A or competitor B.

当你有一个竞争性情报计划或者你有竞争性情报时，我尽量永远不要与产品分享这些信息，因为产品应该只关注客户，他们不应该对竞争对手 A 或竞争对手 B 的情况胡说八道。

But as an overall missive, don't focus on your competitors is terrible advice.

但总的来说，不要关注你的竞争对手是一个糟糕的建议。

And if I'm being charitable, it's just outdated because some fun facts, and I alluded to some of them before, over the past decade, if you're building in tech, particularly in SaaS or subscriptions, you now have 16 times the number of competitors if you started a business today, than if you did 10 years ago, and this is because everyone and their mother can spin up a website, a server, they can drive traffic to that site.

如果我是出于慈善目的，它只是过时了，因为一些有趣的事实，我之前提到过其中一些，在过去的十年中，如果你正在开发技术，特别是在 SaaS 或订阅领域，如果你今天创业，你现在的竞争对手数量是 10 年前的 16 倍，这是因为每个人和他们的母亲都可以启动一个网站、一台服务器，他们可以为该网站带来流量。

Patrick Campbell: So there's just a bunch of stuff in the market.

帕特里克·坎贝尔：所以市场上只有一堆东西。

And then because of all that stuff, all these marketing channels are getting denser and denser.

然后由于所有这些事情，所有这些营销渠道变得越来越密集。

CAC and B2B is up about 110% over the past 10 years.

过去 10 年，CAC 和 B2B 增长了约 110%。

Consumer, it's up 145%.

消费者方面，增长了 145%。

If you're selling sales and marketing software, it's up 220% because there's just so much sales and marketing software doing sales and marketing things in the market.

如果您销售销售和营销软件，则价格会上涨 220%，因为市场上有太多销售和营销软件从事销售和营销工作。

And so the other reason for this is we haven't had a brand new marketing channel since 2015, and that was Snapchat.

另一个原因是我们自 2015 年以来就没有一个全新的营销渠道，那就是 Snapchat。

We have TikTok, but TBD, depending on how you think about it.

我们有 TikTok，但待定，取决于你如何看待它。

But we're going from brand new marketing and advertising innovation every quarter to basically every five years.

但我们将从每个季度进行一次全新的营销和广告创新，改为基本上每五年一次。

Patrick Campbell: My point is, if you are not in a Blue Ocean, you're not in the Peter Teal, go to a market of one, you're not in those types of things, which is most of us, and even some of us who think we're in those things, we're actually not, you do have to focus on your competitors on some level.

帕特里克·坎贝尔：我的观点是，如果你不在蓝海，你不在彼得·蒂尔，进入一个市场，你就不在这些类型的事情中，这就是我们大多数人，甚至我们中的一些人认为我们在这些事情中，我们实际上不是，你必须在某种程度上关注你的竞争对手。

And the levels I particularly think are a bare minimum, just knowing who they are, having a strategy.

我特别认为的水平是最低限度，只要知道他们是谁，有一个策略。

So for ProfitWell we never had comparison pages because we very quickly went from a challenger in this very competitive market to the leader in the market.

因此，对于 ProfitWell，我们从未有过比较页面，因为我们很快就从这个竞争激烈的市场中的挑战者变成了市场的领导者。

So all of a sudden we were going to be above the fray, that was the idea, that was the strategy that we had, which is, "We're going to have a lot of intel on what's going on with them, why people care about this product." We had white label NPS surveys and customer development surveys going to our competitors' customers.

所以突然之间，我们将超越争论，这就是我们的想法，这就是我们的策略，即“我们将获得大量关于他们发生的事情的信息，以及为什么人们关心这个产品。”我们对竞争对手的客户进行了白标 NPS 调查和客户开发调查。

That's the level.

就是这个水平。

And it was just automated.

而且它只是自动化的。

It wasn't like it was taking a lot of time, but we just wanted that intel.

这并不需要花费很多时间，但我们只是想要那个情报。

Lenny: When you say white labeled, that means you're emailing your competitor's customers to see what they think of your competitors, right?

莱尼：当您说白标时，这意味着您正在向竞争对手的客户发送电子邮件，了解他们对竞争对手的看法，对吧？

Patrick Campbell: Exactly.

帕特里克·坎贝尔：没错。

So we're basically, and we did it as a third party basically, which was, I think one of them was analyticssoftware.com, stuff like that.

所以我们基本上是作为第三方来做的，我认为其中之一是analyticssoftware.com，类似的东西。

So it wasn't like we were spoofing as our competitor because I think that crosses a little bit of a line.

所以我们并不是在欺骗我们的竞争对手，因为我认为这有点越界了。

But basically we would have this intel.

但基本上我们会有这个情报。

There's a whole program here.

这里有一个完整的程序。

Basically, I'd have sources...

基本上，我会有来源...

Basically, these customers I knew were always going to stay because they liked the founder or something like that.

基本上，我认识的这些客户总是会留下来，因为他们喜欢创始人或类似的东西。

I would get on the phone with them every quarter or two just to be like, "Hey, what are you liking?

我每隔一两个季度就会和他们通电话，问他们：“嘿，你喜欢什么？

Why haven't you switched yet?" these types of things, or I'd see them at conferences.

怎么还没换？”这些类型的事情，或者我会在会议上看到它们。

Patrick Campbell: So there's a whole program there.

帕特里克·坎贝尔：所以那里有一个完整的计划。

And again, it's not like it's distracting anything, it's just I want the intel so I can predict what's going on, I can predict who to care about, who not to care about.

再说一次，这并不是说它会分散任何事情，只是我想要情报，这样我就可以预测正在发生的事情，我可以预测要关心谁，不关心谁。

But even then, if you're a challenger, competitor marketing pages are really powerful.

但即便如此，如果您是挑战者，竞争对手的营销页面也非常强大。

And the thing is, your customers, especially in a denser market, they know your competitors exist or they're looking at them.

问题是，您的客户，尤其是在密集的市场中，他们知道您的竞争对手的存在或正在关注他们。

Don't infantilize your customers, help them, "Hey, this is how we compare to X, Y, Z competitor," and be honest as much as possible.

不要幼稚地对待你的客户，要帮助他们，“嘿，这就是我们与 X、Y、Z 竞争对手的比较”，并尽可能诚实。

Well, we should always be honest, but be as upfront as possible, I should say, with where you're bad at and where you're great at, those types of things.

好吧，我们应该永远诚实，但我应该说，要尽可能坦率地告诉你你不擅长什么，你擅长什么，这些类型的事情。

Patrick Campbell: But long story short, having something awareness and then choosing a particular strategy, and then depending on your strategy, you might ramp up how much you actually do with the actual intelligence program.

帕特里克·坎贝尔：长话短说，有一些意识，然后选择特定的策略，然后根据你的策略，你可能会增加你对实际情报程序的实际执行程度。

Lenny: This is amazing.

莱尼：这太棒了。

Two questions.

两个问题。

Should every startup have a former spy on their team to help them operationalize these ideas?

每个初创公司都应该在其团队中配备一名前间谍来帮助他们实施这些想法吗？

And then two, is there anything else that you found super valuable that you did based on your training there?

第二，根据你在那里的培训，你还发现有什么其他事情是超级有价值的吗？

Patrick Campbell: We didn't have a formal program, but I love hiring veterans, either veterans of intelligence, so they're citizens, so they're not veterans from a military perspective, but people who had worked in Intel or people who were actual veterans of different military branches.

帕特里克·坎贝尔：我们没有正式的计划，但我喜欢雇用退伍军人，要么是情报部门的退伍军人，所以他们是公民，所以从军事角度来看他们不是退伍军人，而是曾在英特尔工作过的人，或者是不同军事部门的实际退伍军人。

There's a lot of reasons for this, but I think that the intelligence folks, it's a way of thinking.

造成这种情况的原因有很多，但我认为情报人员这是一种思维方式。

Now you ought to be careful, and this is just purely my opinion, because depending on how long they were in...

现在你应该小心，这纯粹是我的意见，因为这取决于他们呆了多长时间......

the reason I left is because it's the government, it's super bureaucratic.

我离开的原因是因为它是政府，它的官僚主义非常严重。

It was one of the most fulfilling jobs I will ever have, and I was only there for a short amount of time.

这是我做过的最有成就感的工作之一，而且我只在那里呆了很短的时间。

But it's just one of those things where it's just so bureaucratic.

但这只是官僚主义程度很高的事情之一。

Patrick Campbell: So the 15-year person there is not thriving, they're not trying to change the world necessarily.

帕特里克·坎贝尔：所以 15 岁的人并没有蓬勃发展，他们不一定想改变世界。

They have a job.

他们有工作。

So you've got to be careful with that.

所以你必须要小心。

But yeah, I think there's these really smart people that just think in a different way.

但是，是的，我认为这些非常聪明的人只是以不同的方式思考。

And a broader point is I think it's just really, really good to go to different industries.

更广泛的一点是，我认为去不同的行业真的非常非常好。

All this customer development stuff, you go to any major retailer or any major e-commerce company, they have entire teams just dedicated to this stuff.

所有这些客户开发的东西，你去任何大型零售商或任何大型电子商务公司，他们都有整个团队专门致力于这些东西。

Hallmark was one of our first pricing customers back in the day before we went subscription focused.

在我们专注于订阅的前一天，Hallmark 是我们的首批定价客户之一。

They had 119 people in customer insights and research.

他们有 119 名负责客户洞察和研究的人员。

And this was one of the reason we were like, "Well, you guys don't need our help, you've got enough people." But those are great people to hire, even though they don't necessarily have the actual industry knowledge, they have a lot of domain expertise.

这就是我们的原因之一，“好吧，你们不需要我们的帮助，你们已经有足够的人手了。”但这些都是值得雇用的优秀人才，尽管他们不一定具备实际的行业知识，但他们拥有大量的领域专业知识。

Patrick Campbell: In terms of things I learned, I'll put it this way, not to get political, if I was in charge of budget, I would give so much more money into the intel community.

帕特里克·坎贝尔：就我学到的东西而言，我会这样说，不是为了政治化，如果我负责预算，我会给英特尔社区更多的钱。

I saw conflicts or heard about conflicts being stopped just because of intelligence that didn't go hot in terms of war fighting.

我看到冲突或听说冲突被停止只是因为情报在战争方面没有引起热议。

I think it's one of those things where I would put so much more money there than the actual other side of the defense budget.

我认为这是我愿意投入比国防预算实际另一方更多的钱的事情之一。

Patrick Campbell: And also everyone asks me about Snowden.

帕特里克·坎贝尔：每个人都问我有关斯诺登的事情。

So again, not to get political, it's a lot more complicated, I think, than a lot of people think.

再说一遍，不要涉及政治，我认为这比很多人想象的要复杂得多。

It's one of those things that the issues that were brought up, obviously they got really sensationalized, but they're really important conversations to have, but it's not as simple as, "Oh, stop doing this, start doing that."

这是所提出的问题之一，显然它们确实引起了轰动，但它们确实是非常重要的对话，但它并不像“哦，停止这样做，开始那样做”那么简单。

Patrick Campbell: You don't have to worry about the NSA, the NSA's all outward-looking.

帕特里克·坎贝尔：你不必担心国家安全局，国家安全局都是外向型的。

You should worry about the FBI.

你应该担心联邦调查局。

The FBI are the ones who get a little testy with certain things, and you're seeing that in the court cases and stuff like that.

联邦调查局是那些对某些事情有点暴躁的人，你可以在法庭案件和类似的事情中看到这一点。

But just know there's a lot of really hardworking, very well-intentioned people who you might disagree in terms of trade-offs, in terms of safety and things like that.

但要知道，有很多非常勤奋、善意的人，你可能会在权衡、安全等方面不同意他们的观点。

They're also some of the most privacy orientated people on the planet, so that's worth a whole conversation.

他们也是地球上最注重隐私的人，因此值得进行一次完整的对话。

So hopefully I didn't throw too many grenades in this part.

所以希望我没有在这部分扔太多手榴弹。

Lenny: No, we need more grenades.

莱尼：不，我们需要更多手榴弹。

That's the first time Snowden was brought up on this podcast, so that's cool.

这是斯诺登第一次在这个播客中被提及，所以这很酷。

There you go.

就这样吧。

And this is actually a good segue to the next topic, which is around local strategies like FBI versus NSA.

这实际上是下一个主题的一个很好的延续，下一个主题是围绕联邦调查局与国家安全局等本地策略的。

I think you have a strong perspective that local strategies are much more likely to so we'll just get into that one.

我认为您有一个强烈的观点，即本地策略更有可能实现，所以我们将讨论这一点。

Patrick Campbell: Yeah, yeah.

帕特里克·坎贝尔：是的，是的。

Just to give you a tease, I'll tell you what I think of Snowden after the podcast.

只是为了给你开个玩笑，我会在播客结束后告诉你我对斯诺登的看法。

So the world doesn't get to know except that I'll tell you what my opinion is afterwards.

所以全世界都不会知道，除非我事后告诉你我的看法。

Patrick Campbell: Local strategies.

帕特里克·坎贝尔：本地策略。

Local strategies, very basic.

本地策略，非常基础。

People like to buy from people, but we as operators get so excited about the scale of the internet that we forget the basics of humanity.

人们喜欢从人那里购买东西，但作为运营商，我们对互联网的规模过于兴奋，以至于忘记了人性的基础。

Here's some fun data points, we did a bunch of studies on this.

这里有一些有趣的数据点，我们对此做了很多研究。

So prospects who meet you in person, and this is not just for profit, all the data I've shared, it's all global-level data or segmented depending on how we did it.

因此，亲自与您见面的潜在客户，这不仅仅是为了利润，我共享的所有数据，都是全球级数据或根据我们的做法进行细分。

It's not just our findings, it's like we looked at probably a minimum of 2,000 companies per factoid and most of the time much more.

这不仅仅是我们的调查结果，就好像我们每个事实报道至少考察了 2,000 家公司，而且大多数时候要多得多。

But prospects who meet you in person have 10 to 30% higher willingness to pay than those who didn't.

但与没有亲自见过面的潜在客户相比，他们的支付意愿要高出 10% 到 30%。

Churn for those folks who you meet in person is typically 20% lower than those folks who have never met you.

与那些从未见过您的人相比，您亲自见过的人的流失率通常要低 20%。

Expansion revenue is typically 15 to 20% higher.

扩张收入通常会高出 15% 至 20%。

Patrick Campbell: And this is not only in hand-to-hand kind of sales, coffee meetings, lunches, lunch and learns this type of thing, but it's also in scaled products, so products that cost 20, 50 bucks per month.

帕特里克·坎贝尔：这不仅包括手工销售、咖啡会议、午餐、午餐和学习这类事情，而且还包括规模化产品，即每月花费 20 至 50 美元的产品。

And so my suggestion is to you, especially in a post-COVID, I don't know if that's the right term, but in a world that hopefully does not see another pandemic in our lifetimes, knock on wood, do meetups, do lunches, go to conferences, unless you're Lenny who is not a big fan of conferences.

所以我的建议是给你们，特别是在新冠疫情之后，我不知道这是否是一个正确的术语，但在一个希望在我们有生之年不会出现另一场大流行的世界里，敲木头，聚会，吃午餐，参加会议，除非你是不热衷会议的莱尼。

But get out of the office.

但请离开办公室。

Make sure you get out of the office.

确保你离开办公室。

And the budget doesn't have to be as big as you think.

而且预算不必像您想象的那么大。

Breakfast and lunches are super cheap.

早餐和午餐都超级便宜。

We would push all of our P2 and P3s to a meetup, and all of our P1s, we would have one-on-one coffee dates.

我们会让所有的 P2 和 P3 参加一次聚会，而所有的 P1，我们都会进行一对一的咖啡约会。

It's super cheap.

超级便宜。

Lenny: What do the Ps mean?

莱尼：Ps 是什么意思？

Is that priority?

这是优先事项吗？

Patrick Campbell: Priority 1, we want these people to convert, they're very good fits, all this other stuff.

帕特里克·坎贝尔：第一要务，我们希望这些人转变，他们非常适合，所有其他东西。

P2s are like, they're probably good fits, but they're just not as big.

P2 就像，它们可能很合适，但它们只是没有那么大。

And then P3s are with a content play, they just love our content and stuff, but they're not necessarily good fits for us.

然后 P3 会玩内容，他们只是喜欢我们的内容和东西，但他们不一定适合我们。

And so people make the mistake, they push everyone to dinners and it's like, I don't want to spend all of my money on P2s and P3s.

所以人们会犯错误，他们强迫每个人都去吃饭，就像是，我不想把所有的钱都花在 P2 和 P3 上。

Patrick Campbell: And so breakfast and lunches are cheaper than dinners.

帕特里克·坎贝尔：所以早餐和午餐比晚餐便宜。

Meetups can be extremely inexpensive, get creative.

聚会可以非常便宜，发挥创意。

We like to do barbecue type stuff for, not dive bars, but the unique dive bar, I guess is the best way to put it.

我们喜欢做烧烤类型的东西，不是潜水酒吧，而是独特的潜水酒吧，我想这是最好的说法。

So it's not fancy.

所以这并不花哨。

People just want to meet people, they want to talk to you, especially if you're doing content and things like that.

人们只是想认识人，他们想和你交谈，特别是当你正在做内容和类似的事情时。

The Lenny Newsletter, Lenny Empire Meetups, I see the pictures of those all the time.

莱尼时事通讯、莱尼帝国聚会，我一直看到这些照片。

There's just an urge to learn from one another and hang out.

只是有一种相互学习和出去玩的冲动。

So yeah, that's the biggest thing, get out of the office or get out of your desk at home.

所以，是的，这是最重要的事情，走出办公室或离开家里的办公桌。

Lenny: Yeah, that's right.

莱尼：是的，没错。

You're on Zoom.

您正在使用 Zoom。

And you're saying it's not just the founders, it could be anyone on the team, salespeople, that all works.

你是说，不仅仅是创始人，团队中的任何人、销售人员都可以发挥作用。

Patrick Campbell: Anyone.

帕特里克·坎贝尔：任何人。

I led marketing as part of my role as CEO, and so I do a lot of this and I'm also the one doing a lot of the content and stuff like that, or the face of a lot of our content, so I did a lot of it.

作为首席执行官，我领导营销工作，所以我做了很多这样的事情，我也是做很多内容和类似的事情的人，或者是我们很多内容的面孔，所以我做了很多这样的事情。

But your head of sales...

但你的销售主管...

and you just have to position this a little differently.

你只需要稍微改变一下它的定位。

If they're going to meet with a salesperson, it's the same thing as if they get a email from a BDR, they're like, "I'm not going to figure it out.

如果他们要与销售人员会面，就像他们收到 BDR 发来的电子邮件一样，他们会说：“我不会弄清楚。

I don't want to deal with this." But if it's like, "Hey, we're hosting..." We're doing these lunch and learns right now.

我不想处理这个。”但如果是这样，“嘿，我们正在主持......”我们现在正在做这些午餐并学习。

I was in Paris, New York, and London last week, it's probably why I'm so sick this week, and all of a sudden we did these lunch and learns.

上周我去了巴黎、纽约和伦敦，这可能就是我这周病得很厉害的原因，突然间我们吃了这些午餐并学到了东西。

People just want to hang out.

人们只是想出去玩。

Patrick Campbell: So we had 10 people, we had 20 people at one, 10 people, all priority 1 leads.

Patrick Campbell：所以我们有 10 个人，我们有 20 个人，10 个人，所有优先级 1 的领导者。

And then we did these meetups with 100-plus people at each.

然后我们举行了这些聚会，每次都有 100 多人参加。

Just think of that brand equity.

想想品牌资产。

And you just hang out.

你只是闲逛。

It wasn't just me at all of these things.

所有这些事情不仅仅是我一个人在做。

I ran the content, but then all of our sales folks were hanging out and doing their thing.

我运行了内容，但随后我们所有的销售人员都在闲逛并做他们的事情。

But it doesn't have to be super complicated.

但它不必非常复杂。

It's just those touchpoints that people want.

人们想要的正是这些接触点。

And it's so high leverage because there are a lot of people who will not answer your email but will come to an event to meet you or meet someone from your team because it's something to do, especially if you're buying them breakfast or coffee or something like that.

它的影响力如此之高，因为有很多人不会回复你的电子邮件，但会来参加一个活动来见你或见你团队中的某人，因为这是有事可做，特别是如果你给他们买早餐或咖啡或类似的东西。

It doesn't have to be something that's extravagant.

它不一定是奢侈的东西。

Lenny: I love this advice.

莱尼：我喜欢这个建议。

Basically, it's like if your sales aren't where you want it to be, find a way to meet your potential leads or someone in your team meeting your leads.

基本上，这就像如果您的销售没有达到您想要的水平，请找到一种方法来满足您的潜在潜在客户或您团队中的某人会见您的潜在客户。

That's a very actionable thing you could do like, "We're not hitting our numbers, let's just go meet some people, find opportunities to hang out in real life."

这是一件非常可行的事情，你可以这样做，比如“我们没有达到目标，让我们去见一些人，寻找在现实生活中闲逛的机会。”

Patrick Campbell: Well, in the early days, pre-product market fit, this is all we would do too.

帕特里克·坎贝尔：嗯，在早期，产品市场适合前，这也是我们要做的。

I would stay at the worst hotels, I would stay at hostels, but just to get to, "Okay, I want to sell to these people." The best information I'm going to get isn't in a Zoom or I'm asking them questions, it's going to be like, "Hey." I gave a talk on pricing because that was a high leverage thing I could do because no one knows anything about pricing, but they know it's important, so a lot of people want to listen.

我会住在最差的酒店，我会住在旅馆，但只是为了，“好吧，我想卖给这些人。”我能得到的最好的信息不是在 Zoom 中，也不是我问他们问题，而是“嘿”。我做了一个关于定价的演讲，因为这是我可以做的一件高杠杆的事情，因为没有人对定价一无所知，但他们知道它很重要，所以很多人都想听。

But then afterwards it's like, "Oh yeah, how do you think about this?

但事后就会说，“哦，是的，你觉得这件事怎么样？

What are you doing for this?

你为此做什么？

What are you doing for..." all of those fun producty questions.

你在做什么……”所有这些有趣的富有成效的问题。

It's just really, really high leverage.

这是非常非常高的杠杆。

And I think it's one of those things that...

我认为这是其中之一......

It depends on your role, it depends on your stage, but everyone can use something there.

这取决于你的角色，取决于你的舞台，但每个人都可以在那里使用一些东西。

Lenny: Great segue to our final topic.

Lenny：很好地继续我们的最后一个主题。

A lot of people spend time on top of funnel driving visitors, driving traffic, getting the word out.

很多人花时间在渠道顶部吸引访客、增加流量、传播信息。

A lot of people spend time at the end of the funnel, closing customers, increasing within an organization.

很多人花时间在渠道的末端，关闭客户，在组织内增加客户。

You have this perspective that the middle of the funnel is maybe the biggest opportunity these days.

您认为漏斗的中间可能是当今最大的机会。

Can you talk about that?

你能谈谈吗？

Patrick Campbell: Pound for pound biggest opportunity.

帕特里克·坎贝尔：同等条件下最大的机会。

So take a quick step back.

因此，请快速后退一步。

Demand generation exists for more than just supporting the sales team.

需求产生的目的不仅仅是支持销售团队。

We forget that.

我们忘记了这一点。

So sales and marketing, the past decade, it's all been the funnel, we're top of the funnel, middle of funnel, bottom of the funnel.

所以销售和营销，过去十年，都是漏斗，我们在漏斗的顶部，漏斗的中间，漏斗的底部。

HubSpot's trying to make it a flywheel, but marketers are still talking about funnels.

HubSpot 试图将其打造成飞轮，但营销人员仍在谈论渠道。

And when you look at the data, it depends a little bit on the price point and a little bit on the vertical, but 80% of sales and marketing budgets tend to go to the top of the funnel and the bottom of the funnel.

当你查看数据时，你会发现它有点取决于价格点，也有点取决于垂直领域，但 80% 的销售和营销预算往往会流向漏斗的顶部和底部。

So sales folks and ad-type spend, field events, whatever it is, that's where it goes.

因此，销售人员和广告类型的支出、现场活动，无论是什么，都将发生在那里。

Patrick Campbell: And the whole point is you're trying to move someone from a lack of awareness at the top of the funnel to being aware about you and then to a sales combo or a conversion point, if you're not doing sales.

帕特里克·坎贝尔：重点是，如果你不做销售，你正试图让某人从漏斗顶部缺乏意识转变为了解你，然后转向销售组合或转化点。

The problem is bottom of the funnel efficiency and top of the funnel efficiency has plummeted the past decade, just plummeted.

问题是漏斗底部的效率和漏斗顶部的效率在过去十年里直线下降，只是直线下降。

And it's not only because of the factoids I was saying before about CAC and all these other things and so many competitors being in the market, it's just one of those things that the days of just hiring a bunch of BDRs, not training them, not having them in account-based marketing, not doing all these other things, those days are not here anymore.

这不仅是因为我之前所说的关于 CAC 和所有其他事情的事实以及市场上有如此多的竞争对手，这只是其中之一，仅仅雇用一群 BDR，而不培训他们，不让他们进行基于帐户的营销，不做所有这些其他事情的日子已经一去不复返了。

Those days are gone.

那些日子已经一去不复返了。

Maybe in some specific verticals, in specific parts of the market.

也许在某些特定的垂直领域、市场的特定部分。

Patrick Campbell: But here's the other problem.

帕特里克·坎贝尔：但这还有另一个问题。

Sales today is so much more about timing than it once was.

如今的销售比以前更加注重时机。

Because there's so much stuff out there, it's one of those things where people are waiting until it's the right time.

因为那里有太多的东西，所以这是人们等待合适时机的事情之一。

They're aware of you, but they're waiting.

他们知道你，但他们在等待。

So the question we have to ask ourselves to not bury the lead any further is do we need to make this river of demand generation, basically what demand generation works?

因此，我们必须问自己的问题是，我们是否需要让这条需求生成之河，基本上什么需求生成起作用？

But that's table space.

但这是表空间。

Patrick Campbell: If we want to be even increasingly more successful, that middle of the funnel needs to get bigger.

帕特里克·坎贝尔：如果我们想变得越来越成功，漏斗的中间部分就需要变得更大。

That pool of users who is aware of you, interacting with you on a regular basis.

了解您并定期与您互动的用户群。

What if you had leads basically hanging out there in the middle of the funnel, interacting with you on a regular basis before all of a sudden their timing was right and then all of a sudden they go to the bottom of the funnel, and even better they opt into them.

如果你的潜在客户基本上挂在漏斗中间，定期与你互动，然后突然他们的时机合适，然后突然他们到达漏斗的底部，甚至更好他们选择加入他们，该怎么办？

You don't have to keep going after them and doing sales processes that are very kind of churn and burn.

您不必继续追随他们并进行非常费力的销售流程。

So that pool of leads.

所以线索库。

Patrick Campbell: And so the best way to create pools of leads, freemium.

帕特里克·坎贝尔：因此，创建潜在客户池的最佳方式是免费增值。

I'm a huge fan of freemium.

我是免费增值的忠实粉丝。

I used to write articles about how freemium is terrible, so I'm a big convert.

我曾经写过一些关于免费增值是多么糟糕的文章，所以我是一个很大的转变者。

I wrote a book on freemium as well.

我还写了一本关于免费增值的书。

The thing with freemium is CAC is still up over the past decade, but it's up a lot less than overall CAC.

免费增值的问题是 CAC 在过去十年中仍在上升，但其增幅远低于总体 CAC。

Customers who convert from freemium and become paid customers, their retention is typically about 10 to 20% higher than those who converted from a free trial or converted from a traditional sales process.

从免费增值转化为付费客户的客户，其保留率通常比从免费试用或传统销售流程转化的客户高出 10% 到 20% 左右。

And then on top of that, NPS or CSAT, we measured it through NPS, is typically about double because they're converting on their own timeline, not on some artificial timeline of a free trial or artificial timeline of sales.

最重要的是，我们通过 NPS 测量的 NPS 或 CSAT 通常大约是两倍，因为它们是按照自己的时间表进行转化，而不是按照免费试用的人为时间表或人为的销售时间表。

Patrick Campbell: You should still have those things, but I want this pool of people who are aware of me and are using something of my product because at the end of the day, what better content do you have than your actual product?

帕特里克·坎贝尔：你仍然应该拥有这些东西，但我希望这群人了解我并使用我的产品，因为归根结底，你有什么比你的实际产品更好的内容呢？

Even if you're a big enterprise solution, give them something to interact with.

即使您是大型企业解决方案，也要为他们提供一些可以交互的东西。

And then the other way to fill that middle of the funnel is, I think inbound marketing is just becoming SEO and eBooks.

然后，填充漏斗中间的另一种方法是，我认为入站营销正在成为搜索引擎优化和电子书。

Kieran from HubSpot gets offended when I say that, but I love you, buddy.

当我这么说时，HubSpot 的 Kieran 很生气，但我爱你，伙计。

It's okay.

没关系。

I'm still a huge fan.

我仍然是它的超级粉丝。

And this is just because CAC and inbound marketing has gone up and it's all about a lot of SEO and we'll see what AI does to that.

这只是因为 CAC 和入站营销已经上升，而这一切都与大量 SEO 相关，我们将看看人工智能对此有何作用。

Patrick Campbell: But this whole thing of inbound media, we got on this train about five years ago, and inbound media is just podcast video series.

帕特里克·坎贝尔：但是入境媒体的整个事情，我们大约五年前上了这列火车，入境媒体只是播客视频系列。

When we sold the company, we had eight different podcasts and video series, all very niche like Pricing Page Tear Down, which was a show about we collected data and tore down pricing pages, the good and the bad.

当我们出售公司时，我们有八个不同的播客和视频系列，所有这些都非常小众，例如《定价页面拆解》，这是一个关于我们收集数据并拆解定价页面的节目，无论好坏。

We had Boxed Out, which was a retention focused show for the subscription e-commerce industry.

我们推出了 Boxed Out，这是一个针对订阅电子商务行业的专注于留存的节目。

Patrick Campbell: So all of that was to build this pool so that people were aware of us.

帕特里克·坎贝尔：所有这一切都是为了建造这个游泳池，以便人们了解我们。

And then over time, all of a sudden they're like, "Oh, we have a pricing problem, we should go talk to these guys.

然后随着时间的推移，突然他们会说，“哦，我们有定价问题，我们应该去和这些人谈谈。

Oh, we have this content or this retention thing, we should go talk to these guys." But I think the pool is kind of the future and a lot of people are still treating it as just this gateway between the top and the bottom of the funnel.

哦，我们有这个内容或这个保留的东西，我们应该去和这些人谈谈。”但我认为游泳池是未来的趋势，很多人仍然将其视为漏斗顶部和底部之间的门户。

Lenny: Middle of the funnel is the new top of funnel.

莱尼：漏斗的中间是新的漏斗顶部。

We need a bumper sticker.

我们需要一张保险杠贴纸。

Patrick Campbell: There you go.

帕特里克·坎贝尔：就是这样。

I don't know if that's going to sell well, but I will buy one, so.

我不知道它是否会卖得好，但我会买一个，所以。

Lenny: The most nerdiest of all bumper stickers.

莱尼：所有保险杠贴纸中最书呆子的。

Patrick, we've gone through 10 topics.

帕特里克，我们已经讨论了 10 个主题。

Is there anything else you want to touch on before we get to our very exciting lightning rounds?

在我们开始激动人心的闪电回合之前，您还有什么想谈的吗？

Patrick Campbell: I think what I will say is this is all still hard.

帕特里克·坎贝尔：我想我要说的是，这一切仍然很难。

So I'm giving some heuristics, I'm giving some benchmarks, but your mileage is going to vary.

所以我给出了一些启发，我给出了一些基准，但是你的里程会有所不同。

But again, that's your job, whether you're a founder, a product person, an exec, whatever you are, your job is to take in information, your job is to analyze the problem, and then ultimately come up with the best solution.

但同样，这就是你的工作，无论你是创始人、产品人员、执行官，无论你是什么，你的工作就是接收信息，你的工作就是分析问题，然后最终提出最佳解决方案。

And so I think it's one of those things that there's some hard truths I think we talked about, but then there's a lot of this that you have to evaluate it for yourself.

所以我认为这是其中之一，我认为我们讨论过一些残酷的事实，但还有很多事情你必须自己评估。

So just a general, I may come off like a know-it-all, but I understand that mileage varies I guess is the best way...

所以只是一个将军，我可能会表现得像一个万事通，但我知道里程数会有所不同，我想这是最好的方法......

Lenny: Well, with that, we've reached our very exciting lightning round.

莱尼：好了，我们已经进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。

I've got six questions for you.

我有六个问题要问你。

Are you ready?

你准备好了吗？

Lenny: I'm going to add a buzzer someday.

莱尼：有一天我会添加一个蜂鸣器。

Anyway, here we go.

无论如何，我们开始吧。

What are two or three books that you recommend most to other people?

您最向其他人推荐的两三本书是什么？

Patrick Campbell: I have read High Output Management probably 20 times in the past 10 years.

Patrick Campbell：在过去 10 年里，我大概读了 20 遍《高产出管理》。

I read it at least once a year now.

我现在每年至少读一次。

I commissioned a bronze bust of Andy Grove, so that's being done.

我委托制作了安迪·格罗夫的青铜半身像，现在已经完成了。

I'm a big Andy Grove fan.

我是安迪·格罗夫的忠实粉丝。

Patrick Campbell: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

帕特里克·坎贝尔：是的，是的，是的。

It's in progress.

正在进行中。

It's not done.

事情还没有完成。

I'll send you a mockup after this.

之后我会给你发一个模型。

But yeah, High Output Management.

但是，是的，高产出管理。

Thinking in Bets, going to that first principles thinking.

在投注中思考，遵循第一原则思考。

I find that a good book to share with people so that they can think about things and get on board with that.

我发现这是一本值得与人们分享的好书，这样他们就可以思考问题并参与其中。

Patrick Campbell: And then Powerful by Patty McCord.

帕特里克·坎贝尔：帕蒂·麦考德的《然后强大》。

Anything around HR to kind of break your brain a little bit about what you think about HR and people ops.

任何与人力资源相关的事情都会让你对人力资源和人员运营的想法有点困惑。

That's the gateway drug.

这就是入门药。

That was the one where I was like, "Oh, we can choose how to design our people ops teams."

那时我就​​想，“哦，我们可以选择如何设计我们的人员运营团队。”

Lenny: Okay, next question.

莱尼：好的，下一个问题。

Favorite recent movie or TV show?

最近最喜欢的电影或电视节目？

Patrick Campbell: I don't have one that's recent, but I watch The West Wing at least once per week, so I've done that for a long time.

帕特里克·坎贝尔：我没有最近看的，但我每周至少看一次《白宫风云》，所以我已经这么做了很长时间了。

I love Sorkin, I think the writing's just so good, so I'll just throw that out.

我喜欢索金，我认为写得很好，所以我就把它扔掉。

Lenny: Great one.

莱尼：太棒了。

Someone was telling me there's a podcast to analyze each episode, which .

有人告诉我有一个播客可以分析每一集，其中。

Patrick Campbell: It is a great podcast and I've listened to most of them, so yeah.

帕特里克·坎贝尔：这是一个很棒的播客，我听过其中的大部分，所以是的。

Lenny: Okay, great.

莱尼：好的，太好了。

You're all over it.

你已经结束了。

Favorite interview question that you like to ask because you're interviewing.

您在面试时最喜欢问的面试问题。

Patrick Campbell: I have a controversial one.

帕特里克·坎贝尔：我有一个有争议的问题。

I'm not going to be able to go through the entire question in a lightning round.

我无法快速解决整个问题。

But what I do is I do a mini...

但我所做的是我做了一个迷你...

I did all the final interviews at ProfitWell, and we did a very hard culture check in the final interview.

我在 ProfitWell 进行了所有的最终面试，我们在最终面试中进行了非常严格的文化检查。

There's a mini case study, it only lasts about a couple of minutes, I'm not going to go through it, but I asked them if someone in Slack responded to someone sharing something benign, like some report they found on the internet from McKinsey, they shared it in Slack, and then someone responded to that with something indirectly offensive.

有一个小型案例研究，它只持续大约几分钟，我不打算详细介绍它，但我问他们，Slack 中是否有人对分享一些良性内容的人做出了回应，比如他们在互联网上找到的麦肯锡的一些报告，他们在 Slack 中分享了它，然后有人用一些间接攻击性的内容回应了该内容。

Patrick Campbell: So it's changed over the years, sometimes I say, "Oh, they called it the R word, they said it was stupid," something indirectly offensive.

帕特里克·坎贝尔：多年来情况发生了变化，有时我会说，“哦，他们称之为 R 词，他们说这很愚蠢”，这是间接的冒犯。

And I say, "What would you do, and what do you think the company should do?" And no matter what they say, I challenge them, and I always tell them, "I've never seen that at ProfitWell," which is always good just to make sure they don't have a bunch of fear in this position.

我说：“你会做什么？你认为公司应该做什么？”无论他们说什么，我都会挑战他们，我总是告诉他们，“我在 ProfitWell 从未见过这种情况”，这总是好的，只是为了确保他们在这个职位上不会有很多恐惧。

Patrick Campbell: But it gave me a really, really good opportunity to talk through our culture, particularly the most charitable interpretation piece.

帕特里克·坎贝尔：但这给了我一个非常非常好的机会来谈论我们的文化，特别是最慈善的诠释作品。

And I would say there were about 10% of people who had a zero tolerance policy for whatever the situation was.

我想说，大约有 10% 的人对任何情况都采取零容忍政策。

And I would tell them, I would say, "Hey, listen.

我会告诉他们，我会说，“嘿，听着。

We have zero tolerance for the obvious things, we probably all agree on those." But for this type of situation, we would ask some questions, we'd want to figure it out, we want to see, there's probably some judgment around what happened, how long if they'd been doing this for a while, that type of thing.

我们对显而易见的事情零容忍，我们可能都同意这些。”但对于这种情况，我们会问一些问题，我们想弄清楚，我们想看看，可能对发生的事情有一些判断，如果他们已经这样做了一段时间，诸如此类的事情。

And then we would make a decision on what would happen.

然后我们会对会发生什么做出决定。

And a lot of times nothing would happen except, "Hey, don't be an idiot, you're smarter than that, use better words," or something like that.

很多时候什么也不会发生，除了“嘿，别傻了，你比那更聪明，用更好的词，”或类似的话。

And so that was a good culture check to opt them in or out.

因此，这是一次很好的文化检查，可以让他们选择加入或退出。

Lenny: That is very cool.

莱尼：那太酷了。

It circles back to the value of culture and values and being aligned within your company on culture and values.

它又回到了文化和价值观的价值，以及在公司内部就文化和价值观保持一致。

And it's interesting that that's the question you ask, and not something technical or skill-based.

有趣的是，这是你问的问题，而不是基于技术或技能的问题。

Patrick Campbell: Yeah.

帕特里克·坎贝尔：是的。

Well, I do all the final interviews.

嗯，最后的采访都是我做的。

So they've already gone through a skill-based and they've done culture screen already and stuff like that.

所以他们已经完成了基于技能的测试，并且已经完成了文化筛选之类的事情。

So this is more of the, here's why you should not work here, that type of conversation basically.

所以这更多的是，这就是为什么你不应该在这里工作，基本上是这种类型的对话。

Lenny: I love that.

莱尼：我喜欢这个。

Next question, what are five SaaS products that you or your company uses that you love?

下一个问题，您或您的公司使用的五种您喜欢的 SaaS 产品是什么？

And bonus points for ones maybe people haven't heard,

还有一些人们可能没有听说过的奖励积分，

Patrick Campbell: That's hard to answer too because at the end of the day, we'd all say Zoom, Google Workspace or whatever they're calling it these days because those are the things that are so central.

帕特里克·坎贝尔：这也很难回答，因为归根结底，我们都会说 Zoom、Google Workspace 或他们现在所说的任何东西，因为这些都是如此核心的东西。

I've got to give a shout-out to Notion, we use Notion for all of our documentation.

我必须向 Notion 大声喊叫，我们所有的文档都使用 Notion。

I use Notion for my personal...

我将 Notion 用于我的个人...

all these things.

所有这些事情。

I know Code is a sponsor, so I apologize but-

我知道 Code 是赞助商，所以我很抱歉，但是-

Lenny: They're both sponsors, and so we're friends with everyone over here.

莱尼：他们都是赞助商，所以我们和这里的每个人都是朋友。

Both are great-

两个都很棒——

Patrick Campbell: Amazing.

帕特里克·坎贝尔：太棒了。

Lenny's Podcast, friends of all products.

Lenny 的播客，所有产品的朋友。

Descript.

描述。

I use Descript quite a bit.

我经常使用Descriptor。

I use Descript not only for...

我使用描述不仅为了...

it's like a video recording and editing tool, or you can bring in video to edit.

它就像一个视频录制和编辑工具，或者您可以引入视频进行编辑。

But it's got some cool features that...

但它有一些很酷的功能......

I use it more than Loom a lot of times because it just works in my workflow, not only for creating, but also for those quick conversations.

我比 Loom 使用它的次数更多，因为它只适用于我的工作流程，不仅用于创建，还用于那些快速对话。

Patrick Campbell: K-Tool.

帕特里克·坎贝尔：K-Tool。

Here's a fun one.

这是一个有趣的。

This is an indie product, K-Tool.

这是一个独立产品，K-Tool。

There's probably other products that exist like this, but I actually really like the interface of it, it's super simple.

可能还有其他类似的产品，但我实际上非常喜欢它的界面，它非常简单。

Basically if I'm online or someone sends me a PDF or something like that, I can basically choose to send that to my Kindle.

基本上，如果我在线或有人向我发送 PDF 或类似内容，我基本上可以选择将其发送到我的 Kindle。

So if someone sends me something I could just choose to send and then I can batch all of those things into a weekly newsletter that I can curate.

因此，如果有人向我发送一些内容，我可以选择发送，然后我可以将所有这些内容批量放入我可以策划的每周时事通讯中。

So my Sundays and my Monday morning are just spent reading.

所以我的周日和周一早上就只是用来读书。

So I have this weekly newsletter of someone wants me to review this thing or someone wants me to read this article or something like that.

所以我每周都会收到一份时事通讯，其中有人想让我评论这件事，或者有人想让我读这篇文章或类似的东西。

So I batch that into a little newsletter and it's just a Chrome extension that works really well.

所以我把它批处理成一个小新闻通讯，它只是一个运行良好的 Chrome 扩展。

Patrick Campbell: Tweet Hunter, I'm trying to be more on Twitter.

帕特里克·坎贝尔（Patrick Campbell）：Tweet Hunter，我正在努力在 Twitter 上发挥更多作用。

I went through lulls, so now I'm trying to be consistent.

我经历了一段平静期，所以现在我努力保持稳定。

So Tweet Hunter's pretty good.

所以 Tweet Hunter 相当不错。

It's got some AI fun stuff into it to make discovery better.

它融入了一些人工智能有趣的东西，可以让发现变得更好。

And then it's not a SaaS application, but the last one is this Apple Watch Ultra.

然后它不是一个 SaaS 应用程序，但最后一个是这个 Apple Watch Ultra。

So I don't carry my phone anymore.

所以我不再带手机了。

I just don't...

我只是不...

I found myself being on a computer, walking away with my phone, going, doing stuff and then just never being off-screen.

我发现自己在电脑前，带着手机离开，继续做事情，然后就再也没有离开过屏幕。

So I have this for when I'm not in front of my computer and I'm this close to also doing it when I travel to when I've been traveling, my phone will stay in my suitcase, but it connects if I need to make a phone call.

所以当我不在电脑前时，当我旅行时，我也很接近这样做，当我旅行时，我的手机会留在我的手提箱里，但如果我需要打电话，它会连接。

It connects via Bluetooth, all that kind of stuff.

它通过蓝牙等连接。

But just trying to take my attention away from my phone basically, so that's, that's been the unlock.

但基本上只是想把我的注意力从手机上转移开，所以这就是解锁。

Lenny: Damn.

莱尼：该死。

What a list.

多么好的一个清单啊。

That was incredible.

这太不可思议了。

I'm going to ask just one more question.

我只想再问一个问题。

What's favorite lesson from your NSA experience that helps you in life day to day?

从您的国家安全局经历中，您最喜欢的哪一课对您的日常生活有帮助？

Patrick Campbell: I shouldn't say everything, but most things are more complicated than it seems.

帕特里克·坎贝尔：我不应该说出所有事情，但大多数事情比看起来更复杂。

And that's not like a sinister thing, it just means when that person's coming at you and super angry about something, whether it's your fault or not, something's there, they're having a bad day, on top of it, you really messed up, you tapped into a particular emotion that you didn't realize you did.

这并不像是一件险恶的事情，它只是意味着当那个人向你走来并对某件事感到非常愤怒时，无论是否是你的错，总有一些东西在那里，他们今天过得很糟糕，最重要的是，你真的搞砸了，你陷入了一种你没有意识到的特殊情绪。

Or hey, there's even the story in the news about this politician's bad or something like that.

或者，嘿，新闻中甚至有关于这位政客的坏事或类似的故事。

Everything's a lot more complicated, and not in a it's too hard to understand way, it's just you should always caution yourself on believing the first reaction that you have.

一切都变得更加复杂，而且并不是以一种难以理解的方式，只是你应该始终警告自己不要相信你的第一反应。

Patrick Campbell: And I developed that there because there's so many things where...

帕特里克·坎贝尔：我在那里发展了这一点，因为有很多事情......

And it was also my first job, so a lot of this stuff happens because it's your first job, many people may have this experience at a different place, but it was like, "Oh, this geopolitical thing that's happened.

这也是我的第一份工作，所以发生了很多这样的事情，因为这是你的第一份工作，很多人可能在不同的地方有过这种经历，但就像是，“哦，发生了这种地缘政治的事情。

Oh, here's my first instinct, that means this is bad." They're like, "Well, actually, there's this other thing going on over here and this other thing going over there, and those are actually connected.

哦，这是我的第一直觉，这意味着这很糟糕。”他们就像，“嗯，实际上，这里正在发生另一件事，那里正在发生另一件事，这些实际上是相互关联的。

That's why this is caused." So that's helped me, one, not get so pissed off at the news.

这就是造成这种情况的原因。”第一，这帮助我不再对这个消息感到如此生气。

That's also helped me, I think just as a human, along with most charitable interpretation, to just be like, "Okay, let me not overreact here.

我认为，作为一个人，这也帮助了我，加上最慈善的解释，就像，“好吧，让我不要在这里反应过度。

Let me seek to understand and then react or respond, versus react."

让我寻求理解，然后做出反应或回应，而不是反应。”

Lenny: What a beautiful way to end it.

莱尼：多么美妙的结束方式啊。

Patrick Campbell, renaissance man of a brain.

帕特里克·坎贝尔，文艺复兴时期的大脑。

This may be the most action-packed episode we've had, and I'm not surprised.

这可能是我们看过的最动感十足的一集，我并不感到惊讶。

Two final questions where can folks find you online if they want to ask you questions, reach out, learn more about what you're up to?

最后两个问题，如果人们想向您提问、联系您、了解您的动态，可以在哪里找到您？

And how can listeners be useful to you?

听众如何对你有用？

Patrick Campbell: Yeah, so I am on Twitter @patticus, childhood nickname, P-A-T-T-I-C-U-S.

帕特里克·坎贝尔：是的，所以我在 Twitter 上@patticus，童年的昵称，P-A-T-T-I-C-U-S。

LinkedIn, Patrick Campbell.

领英，帕特里克·坎贝尔。

I don't check my LinkedIn messages, I'm going to get around to it, it's just there's so much spam in there.

我不会检查我的 LinkedIn 消息，我会抽出时间查看，只是里面有太多垃圾邮件。

But yeah, you could find me there or just pc@patticus.com, that's my personal email.

但是，是的，您可以在那里找到我，或者只是 pc@patticus.com，这是我的个人电子邮件。

So yeah, if I can be helpful or you want to see more of the data or you have this question or that question, we've probably written or recorded something on some of the things we talked about today, so I'm happy to send it over and just obviously want to be helpful, so yeah, feel free to hit me up.

所以，是的，如果我可以提供帮助，或者您想查看更多数据，或者您有这个或那个问题，我们可能已经就我们今天讨论的一些事情编写或记录了一些内容，所以我很高兴将其发送出去，并且显然希望提供帮助，所以是的，请随时联系我。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

Patrick, thank you again for being here.

帕特里克，再次感谢你来到这里。

Audio: Thank you so much for listening.

音频：非常感谢您的收听。

If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcast, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.

如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcast、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.

您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。