How to ask the right questions, project confidence, and win over skeptics | Paige Costello (Asana)

Lenny: You're often the youngest person in the room.

莱尼：你通常是房间里最年轻的人。

What have you learned about how to garner trust and win over skeptics?

关于如何赢得信任并赢得怀疑者，您学到了什么？

Paige Costello: The thing I would say is bring the insight.

Paige Costello：我想说的是带来洞察力。

Know thy customer.

了解你的客户。

Know thy market.

了解你的市场。

Know thy competitors.

了解你的竞争对手。

Know thy numbers.

了解你的数字。

Know thy product.

了解你的产品。

Lenny: I'm curious, what you find most holds back new PMs?

Lenny：我很好奇，您发现最阻碍新产品经理的是什么？

Paige Costello: Your brain is so accustomed to having a scarcity mindset as opposed to creating alternative options or seeing a different path.

佩奇·科斯特洛：你的大脑已经习惯了稀缺心态，而不是创造替代选择或看到不同的道路。

Effectively, there's this notion of, "How might the opposite be true?" The moment I challenged myself and said, "How might the opposite be true?" my shoulders dropped.

实际上，存在这样的概念：“相反的情况怎么可能是真的呢？”当我挑战自己并说：“相反的情况怎么可能是真的呢？”我的肩膀垂了下来。

I felt more relaxed.

我感觉轻松多了。

I was like, "Oh, yeah, I can do both.

我当时想，“哦，是的，我两者都可以。

It will be fine."

会没事的。”

Lenny: Welcome to Lenny's Podcast, where I interview world-class product leaders and growth experts to learn from their hard-won experiences building and growing today's most successful products.

莱尼：欢迎来到莱尼的播客，我在这里采访了世界一流的产品领导者和增长专家，学习他们来之不易的构建和发展当今最成功产品的经验。

Today, my guest is Paige Costello.

今天，我的嘉宾是佩奇·科斯特洛。

Paige is a product lead at Asana overseeing teams responsible for the core product experience of Asana.

Paige 是 Asana 的产品主管，负责监督负责 Asana 核心产品体验的团队。

Before Asana, she was Director of Product at Intercom, and prior to that, she was a group product manager at Intuit where she spent five and a half years.

在 Asana 之前，她曾担任 Intercom 的产品总监，在此之前，她曾在 Intuit 担任集团产品经理，并在那里工作了五年半。

In our wide-ranging conversation, we dig into strategies for building trust with people who are more experienced than you or older than you, we talk about coaching product managers, including why leading by example is often the most effective strategy, we talk about Asana's product development process and how it's evolved over the years as the company has scaled, plus some of Paige's product and career missteps, and what she's learned from those moments.

在我们内容广泛的对话中，我们深入探讨了与比你更有经验或比你年长的人建立信任的策略，我们讨论了对产品经理的指导，包括为什么以身作则往往是最有效的策略，我们讨论了 Asana 的产品开发流程，以及多年来随着公司规模的扩大，它是如何演变的，还有 Paige 的一些产品和职业失误，以及她从这些时刻学到的东西。

To prep for this interview, I got input from some of Paige's colleagues and former colleagues, and everyone I talked to loved Paige.

为了准备这次采访，我听取了佩奇的一些同事和前同事的意见，与我交谈过的每个人都喜欢佩奇。

You'll soon see why.

你很快就会明白为什么。

Enjoy this episode with Paige Costello after a short word from our sponsors.

在我们的赞助商简短致辞后，请与佩奇·科斯特洛一起欣赏这一集。

Lenny: Today's episode is brought to you by Brave Search and their newest product, the Brave Search API, an independent global search index you can use to power your search or AI apps.

Lenny：今天的节目是由 Brave Search 及其最新产品 Brave Search API 为您带来的，Brave Search API 是一个独立的全局搜索索引，您可以使用它来为您的搜索或人工智能应用程序提供支持。

If your work involves AI, then you know how important new data is to train your LLMs and to power your AI applications.

如果您的工作涉及人工智能，那么您就会知道新数据对于培训您的法学硕士和为您的人工智能应用程序提供支持有多么重要。

You might be building an incredible AI product, but if you're using the same data sets as your competitors to train your models, you don't have much of an advantage.

您可能正在构建令人难以置信的人工智能产品，但如果您使用与竞争对手相同的数据集来训练您的模型，那么您就没有太多优势。

Brave Search is the fastest growing search engine since Bing, and it's 100% independent from the big tech companies.

Brave Search 是自 Bing 以来增长最快的搜索引擎，并且 100% 独立于大型科技公司。

Its index features billions of pages of high-quality data from real humans, and it's constantly updated thanks to being the default search engine in the Brave browser.

它的索引包含来自真实人类的数十亿页高质量数据，并且由于是 Brave 浏览器中的默认搜索引擎，它会不断更新。

Lenny: If you're building products with search capabilities, you're probably experiencing soaring API costs or lack of viable global alternatives to Bing or Google.

Lenny：如果您正在构建具有搜索功能的产品，您可能会遇到 API 成本飙升的情况，或者缺乏 Bing 或 Google 的可行的全球替代品。

It's only going to become harder to afford these challenges.

应对这些挑战只会变得更加困难。

The Brave Search API gives you access to its novel web scale data with competitive features, intuitive structuring, and affordable costs.

Brave Search API 使您能够访问其新颖的网络规模数据，这些数据具有竞争性的功能、直观的结构和实惠的成本。

AI devs will particularly benefit from data containing thorough coverage of recent events.

人工智能开发人员将特别受益于包含近期事件的全面报道的数据。

Lenny's Podcast listeners can get started testing the API for free at brave.com/lenny.

Lenny 的播客听众可以在 Brave.com/lenny 上开始免费测试 API。

That's brave.com/lenny.

那是brave.com/lenny。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Attio, a new type of CRM that's powerful, flexible, and built around your data.

Lenny：本集由 Attio 为您带来，Attio 是一种新型 CRM，功能强大、灵活且围绕您的数据构建。

Traditional CRMs were built for a different era with totally different speed, scale, and data demands.

传统的 CRM 是为不同的时代而构建的，具有完全不同的速度、规模和数据需求。

Attio is different.

阿蒂奥则不同。

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它允许您快速构建与您独特的工作流程和数据结构相匹配的 CRM。

Within minutes of connecting your email and calendar, you'll have a CRM that's already set up complete with customer profiles and automatic data enrichment.

连接电子邮件和日历后几分钟内，您将拥有一个已设置完整的 CRM，其中包含客户资料和自动数据充实。

You'll also have real-time dynamic reporting at your fingertips.

您还可以轻松获得实时动态报告。

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不再有缓慢的部署、过时的用户体验或繁琐的手动数据输入。

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借助 Attio，无论您的业务模式或公司处于什么阶段，您都可以动态构建和调整您的 CRM。

Attio is the CRM for fast-growing startups.

Attio 是面向快速成长的初创公司的 CRM。

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今天就开始吧，第一年可享受 15% 的折扣，请访问 attio.com/lenny。

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那是 A-T-T-I-O.com/lenny。

Lenny: Paige, welcome to the podcast.

莱尼：佩奇，欢迎来到播客。

Paige Costello: Thanks, Lenny.

佩奇·科斯特洛：谢谢，莱尼。

Great to be here.

很高兴来到这里。

Lenny: So you don't know this, and I've been telling you this, but I asked a bunch of people that you worked with and maybe currently work with for questions, suggestions of things to ask you.

莱尼：所以你不知道这一点，我一直在告诉你这一点，但我问了一群与你共事过的人，也许现在正在共事的人，向你提出问题和建议。

So this is going to be really fun.

所以这会非常有趣。

Paige Costello: Wonderful.

佩奇·科斯特洛：太棒了。

Now, I want to know who you talked to, but we'll find out.

现在，我想知道你和谁谈过，但我们会找到答案的。

Lenny: I'll tell you right now.

莱尼：我现在就告诉你。

Big thank you to Jackie Bavaro, Yasmin who's on your team, and Montgomery and Steve Morin who is currently at Asana.

非常感谢您团队中的 Jackie Bavaro、Yasmin，以及目前在 Asana 的 Montgomery 和 Steve Morin。

Lenny: So thank you to all of those folks for giving me a bunch of great questions, suggestions.

莱尼：感谢所有这些人给了我很多很好的问题和建议。

Lenny: Maybe just to settle a context, can you just talk about...

Lenny：也许只是为了解决一下背景，你能谈谈......

At Asana, what do you work with?

在 Asana，你用什么来工作？

What is your team?

你的团队是什么？

What do you work on, and what is your team responsible for broadly?

您的工作内容是什么？您的团队主要负责什么？

Paige Costello: Yeah.

佩吉·科斯特洛：是的。

Absolutely.

绝对地。

So I lead the product organization that's responsible for our desktop, web, and mobile apps at Asana.

因此，我领导了负责 Asana 桌面、网络和移动应用程序的产品组织。

The teams are composed of all the people in San Francisco and New York who are focused on creating clarity for individuals, teams, and organizations.

这些团队由旧金山和纽约的所有人员组成，他们致力于为个人、团队和组织创造清晰度。

Effectively, our goal is to help teams work together more efficiently and drive the outcomes they're going for.

实际上，我们的目标是帮助团队更有效地合作并推动他们想要的结果。

So you can think about the feature sets if you're an Asana user like goals, portfolios, projects, tasks, reporting, all of that.

因此，如果您是 Asana 用户，您可以考虑一下功能集，例如目标、投资组合、项目、任务、报告等等。

But really, we want to help people answer the question at work, "Who is doing what by when, and why?" So that notion of clarity of purpose, clarity of plan, progress, and responsibility are often so painful in people's work lives.

但实际上，我们希望帮助人们回答工作中的问题：“谁在何时做什么，为什么？”因此，明确的目标、明确的计划、进度和责任的概念在人们的工作生活中往往是非常痛苦的。

When there is certainty there and clarity there, people can be much more efficient in getting the work done.

当确定性和清晰性存在时，人们就能更有效地完成工作。

So that's where my focus is every day.

所以这就是我每天关注的焦点。

I'm a product leader for that group.

我是该小组的产品负责人。

Lenny: Cool.

莱尼：酷。

So, basically, like the core.

所以，基本上，就像核心一样。

When people think of Asana, it's all of that stuff is what it sounds like.

当人们想到体式时，它就是它听起来的样子。

Paige Costello: Yeah, yeah.

佩奇·科斯特洛：是的，是的。

There's another group that's focused on our process management, but a lot of the core work in project management, core is in my group, and then we have a growth and enterprise scale team.

还有另一个小组专注于我们的流程管理，但项目管理中的很多核心工作，核心都在我的小组中，然后我们有一个成长和企业规模的团队。

Lenny: You've been at Asana for about four years now, right?

莱尼：你在 Asana 工作已经四年了，对吧？

Lenny: Cool.

莱尼：酷。

So something I'm always curious about companies that are at this scale is just the evolution they've gone through in terms of how they develop product, and so I'm curious, just in the time you've been there, how has the product development process at Asana changed, and maybe even simpler, what are some of the bigger changes that have been made to the way product is built at Asana over the years?

因此，我一直对这种规模的公司感到好奇的是他们在产品开发方式方面所经历的演变，所以我很好奇，就在你在那里的时候，Asana 的产品开发流程发生了怎样的变化，也许更简单的是，多年来 Asana 的产品构建方式发生了哪些更大的变化？

Paige Costello: I would talk a little bit about how we set strategy and our planning process, and how that's changed in this time as well as how we actually ship product has changed in this time.

Paige Costello：我想谈谈我们如何制定战略和规划流程，以及这一次如何变化，以及我们这次实际交付产品的方式如何变化。

On the planning front, we have really changed what altitudes we're planning at, the time horizon we're planning at.

在规划方面，我们确实改变了规划的高度和时间范围。

Some of the inputs have gotten a lot more precise and opinionated.

一些输入变得更加精确和固执己见。

So, for example, we have always had pillar plans and team plans, but maybe we didn't have an intermediary layer of an area perspective.

例如，我们一直都有支柱计划和团队计划，但也许我们没有区域视角的中间层。

Well, what's an area perspective?

那么，什么是区域视角？

Well, as your organization grows, we've had to reorganize to create more agency and accountability close to teams that are focused on specific target customers and problems.

嗯，随着您的组织不断发展，我们必须进行重组，以在专注于特定目标客户和问题的团队附近建立更多的代理机构和问责制。

So if you think about the way Asana is organized, we've got our R&D, the pillar structure, the areas within them, and then the working teams.

因此，如果你考虑一下 Asana 的组织方式，就会发现我们有研发、支柱结构、内部领域，然后是工作团队。

Lenny: It might actually help if you even describe what is a pillar, what is an area in product development.

Lenny：如果你描述一下什么是支柱，什么是产品开发的一个领域，实际上可能会有所帮助。

Paige Costello: Yeah.

佩吉·科斯特洛：是的。

Absolutely.

绝对地。

So when I said I'm responsible for that core product pillar, that's one pillar, but then there's also the adoption and enterprise scale pillar and the workflow pillar.

因此，当我说我负责核心产品支柱时，这是一个支柱，但还有采用和企业规模支柱以及工作流程支柱。

Within each of those, there are subgroups, and we call those areas.

每个区域内都有子组，我们将这些子组称为区域。

Each of those areas has a very specific target customer and problem space they're solving for.

每个领域都有一个非常具体的目标客户和他们要解决的问题空间。

We've often also dialed up the clarity of the metric at that level.

我们还经常提高该级别指标的清晰度。

So while we have an R&D set of metrics, we have pillar metrics, we have area metrics, and then at the team level, there's often one or two that they're really driving forward.

因此，虽然我们有一套研发指标，但我们有支柱指标，我们有区域指标，然后在团队层面，他们通常会真正推动一两个指标。

So you can think of it as a nested structure around our product strategy as well as how we measure success.

因此，您可以将其视为围绕我们的产品策略以及我们衡量成功的方式的嵌套结构。

Paige Costello: When I joined, we didn't have areas.

Paige Costello：当我加入时，我们没有区域。

We were organized around projects and around locations, and then we worked to make sure that the thinking was more durable and problem-focused so that our roadmaps were not about features, but were instead about what was most meaningful to tackle for our business growth.

我们围绕项目和地点进行组织，然后我们努力确保思维更加持久且以问题为中心，以便我们的路线图不是关于功能，而是关于对我们的业务增长最有意义的解决方案。

So that's a big thing that has changed is the altitude of planning and how that nests.

因此，规划的高度以及规划的方式已经发生了很大的变化。

Another thing that has changed is the time horizon.

另一件发生变化的事情是时间范围。

So, before, we planned annually primarily.

所以，之前我们主要是每年计划一次。

Now, we plan every six months, but for a rolling 12 months.

现在，我们每六个月计划一次，但会滚动 12 个月。

So we have higher confidence in the immediate half, lower confidence in the following half, but we just plan every 12 months, every six months because it gives our business more confidence in what's coming and a better opportunity to align our go-to-market and product planning.

因此，我们对前半程的信心较高，对后半程的信心较低，但我们只是每 12 个月、每 6 个月进行一次计划，因为这让我们的企业对即将发生的事情更有信心，并有更好的机会来协调我们的上市和产品规划。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

So I just actually was talking to one of the heads of product at Shopify, and they went through a similar transition where they used to plan yearly, and now they plan for the next six months.

所以我实际上只是在与 Shopify 的一位产品负责人交谈，他们经历了类似的转变，过去他们每年计划一次，现在他们为接下来的六个月计划。

So it's interesting that I'm hearing this more and more, and you're saying that every six months, you revisit the plan for the next year.

有趣的是，我越来越多地听到这种说法，而且你说每六个月你就会重新审视下一年的计划。

So it's an interesting hybrid of those two.

所以这是两者的有趣混合体。

Paige Costello: Yeah.

佩吉·科斯特洛：是的。

Absolutely.

绝对地。

I think the more you try to do things in a joined up way where you have a single target customer with sales and marketing, and you want to make sure that the impact of your releases hit their mark, the more it's important to reflect on it frequently and to be able to pivot quickly because our strategy, even when we think we have a two-year vision, something will change, and then we say, "Wow, we made so much faster progress on this than we thought, and we actually believe that there's a new opportunity or a new technology that we should be leveraging.

我认为，你越是尝试以一种联合的方式做事情，你有一个单一的目标客户，包括销售和营销，并且你想要确保你的发布的影响力达到目标，那么经常反思并能够快速调整就越重要，因为我们的策略，即使我们认为我们有两年的愿景，某些事情也会发生变化，然后我们说，“哇，我们在这方面取得的进展比我们想象的要快得多，我们实际上相信有一个新的机会或一项新技术，我们应该利用杠杆。

Let's go bigger on that." So it reduces the feeling of churn and thrash.

让我们在这方面做得更大一些。”因此它减少了搅动和颠簸的感觉。

It makes us all more principled, and it helps us just make sure we're making the best use of our teams.

它使我们更加有原则，并帮助我们确保充分利用我们的团队。

Lenny: I like that it also admits you're not going to actually have a yearly plan, like everyone plans for year, and then halfway through, they're like, "No. Let's start rethinking everything again."

莱尼：我喜欢它也承认你不会真正制定年度计划，就像每个人都计划一年一样，然后中途，他们会说，“不。让我们重新开始重新考虑一切。”

Lenny: So I like that you're upfront about that.

莱尼：所以我喜欢你对此的坦率。

Lenny: Okay, and then within the plan, do you have quarterly plans and sprints?

Lenny：好的，然后在计划中，你们有季度计划和冲刺吗？

Is there anything more fine-grained with a detailed roadmap just while we're on the topic?

当我们讨论这个主题时，是否有更细粒度的详细路线图？

Paige Costello: Yeah, not really.

佩奇·科斯特洛：是的，不是真的。

I mean, teams know approximately when are they expecting to do the work, but if you ask too much for a particular quarter, a particular week, or date, you will make strange choices about scope.

我的意思是，团队大约知道他们预计什么时候完成工作，但如果你对特定季度、特定周或日期要求太多，你就会对范围做出奇怪的选择。

So, really, we align on what success looks like, and the teams do their best job to ship as quickly as possibly, as iteratively as possibly, and we really encourage prototyping.

所以，实际上，我们对成功的样子保持一致，团队尽最大努力尽快交付，尽可能迭代，我们真的鼓励原型设计。

So we added into our product process a notion that we might pivot or cut from stuff that we put on our roadmap because it felt like once it was on the roadmap, it had to be done, and that's just not smart.

因此，我们在产品流程中添加了一个概念，即我们可能会调整或删除路线图上的内容，因为感觉一旦它出现在路线图上，就必须完成，而这是不明智的。

Lenny: Got it.

莱尼：明白了。

So, essentially, there's a six-month roughly detailed plan of what each team is going to work on?

那么，从本质上讲，每个团队都有一个为期六个月的大致详细的工作计划？

Lenny: Maybe just a couple more things just to make them super concrete for folks that might be listening.

莱尼：也许还有更多的事情可以让那些可能正在倾听的人变得非常具体。

What's an example of an area?

区域的例子是什么？

What's an actual team that would be an area?

一个真正的团队是什么？

Then, the other question I have just while I'm saying questions is, are there some metrics you could share of just what some of these teams might be gold on just as examples of how you think about metrics?

然后，我在说问题时遇到的另一个问题是，是否有一些指标可以分享，这些团队中的一些团队可能会在哪些方面表现出色，作为您如何看待指标的示例？

Paige Costello: The area that came to mind when you asked about one of our areas is something called Coordinate, and their job is effectively making sure that the slice of Asana that helps teams work together is working effectively.

Paige Costello：当您询问我们的一个领域时，您想到的领域是“协调”，他们的工作是有效确保帮助团队合作的体式部分有效发挥作用。

So that's projects, and tasks, and the data that you might put into tasks, and all of the back and forth that is required when people use Asana for their core working team.

这就是项目、任务以及您可能放入任务中的数据，以及人们在核心工作团队中使用 Asana 时所需的所有来回操作。

Some of the metrics that they care about are like org paying weekly active users as well as really thinking about healthy project use.

他们关心的一些指标包括组织每周向活跃用户付费以及真正考虑健康的项目使用。

So we make sure that we understand what does good look like and what is a dynamic that we want to be creating in terms of people getting real value from using the product, and we build that into our metrics to have as a guardrail to ensure that we're not driving one metric at the expense of people really getting what they need out of Asana.

因此，我们确保我们了解什么是好的，以及我们希望在人们从使用产品中获得真正价值方面创造的动态是什么，并将其构建到我们的指标中作为护栏，以确保我们不会以牺牲人们真正从 Asana 中获得所需的东西为代价来推动某个指标。

Lenny: Just a couple more questions along these lines.

莱尼：还有几个问题。

Lenny: I'm nerd-sniped about process.

莱尼：我对流程很着迷。

Lenny: I think you use a process called the Double Diamond Process at Asana.

Lenny：我认为你在 Asana 使用了一种称为“双钻石流程”的流程。

Okay.

好的。

Cool.

凉爽的。

Lenny: I've seen images of this in various places, but I don't know of any company that's actually using it as the process.

Lenny：我在很多地方都看到过这样的图片，但我不知道有哪家公司真正使用它作为流程。

Can you just describe what the Double Diamond Process is and how you use it?

您能简单描述一下双钻石工艺是什么以及如何使用它吗？

Paige Costello: So you might be familiar with lean startup concepts and Double Diamond as it relates to going broad, and then going narrow.

Paige Costello：所以您可能熟悉精益创业概念和双钻石，因为它与先扩大再缩小有关。

So you go broad when you ask like, "What customer should I solve for?" and then you pick one, and then that's the narrowing.

因此，当您问“我应该为哪些客户提供解决方案？”时，您的范围要广泛。然后你选一个，然后就缩小范围了。

Then, you go broad, and you say, "What are the problems this customer has?" and you narrow, and you say, "This is the problem they have." Then, you go broad, and you say, "What solution should we do to this?" and then you go narrow, and you say, "This is the solution that we should start with." That process of going broad, and going narrow, and going broad, and going narrow forces people to get out of their opinion-driven lens because so often, we need to be curious quantitatively and qualitatively about what we're doing and why, and be more systematic and rigorous about getting there.

然后，你扩大范围，问：“这个客户有什么问题？”你缩小范围，然后说：“这就是他们面临的问题。”然后，你扩大范围，你说：“我们应该对此采取什么解决方案？”然后你缩小范围，然后说：“这是我们应该开始的解决方案。”这种扩大范围、缩小范围、扩大范围、缩小范围的过程迫使人们摆脱观点驱动的视角，因为很多时候，我们需要对我们正在做的事情和原因感到定量和定性的好奇，并更加系统和严格地实现这一目标。

It doesn't take long, but it just breaks the frame.

时间并不长，但只是打破了框架。

Paige Costello: The Double Diamond Process that Asana effectively...

Paige Costello：双钻石过程，Asana 有效地......

Each of our typical reviews or artifacts sit at different inflection points on the Double Diamond.

我们的每条典型评论或文物都位于双钻的不同拐点。

So we actually ask people to do a kickoff where they collect different information at different scale depending on the size of the problem and the ambiguity they're solving.

因此，我们实际上要求人们进行启动，根据问题的大小和他们正在解决的模糊性，收集不同规模的不同信息。

Some people have already done enough customer selection and research that they're starting with, "What are the possible solutions to this problem?" and then they're bringing the spec, and that's the narrowing alongside design, et cetera.

有些人已经做了足够的客户选择和研究，他们开始思考“这个问题的可能解决方案是什么？”然后他们带来了规范，这就是设计等方面的缩小范围。

But it's really mapping our artifacts against this notion to make sure that the product thinking has that quality of decision-making.

但它实际上是根据这个概念来映射我们的工件，以确保产品思维具有决策的质量。

Yeah.

是的。

Lenny: The way you described it is it was very customer-target-oriented.

Lenny：正如你所描述的那样，它非常以客户为导向。

Is that that the actual framework?

这就是真正的框架吗？

Is it around who to build this for, and then what to build, or is it more...

是围绕为谁构建这个，然后构建什么，还是更多......

It is.

是的。

Okay.

好的。

You're not ahead?

你不领先吗？

Paige Costello: It's really important because then you also know what success looks like because if you pick your success metrics as using a feature, that's it.

Paige Costello：这非常重要，因为这样你也知道成功是什么样子，因为如果你选择成功指标作为使用某个功能，那就是成功了。

You're teaching to the test.

你的教学是为了应试。

It's not actually driving the outcome.

It's not actually driving the outcome.

So while our planning process is around effectively defining category and how we win, and making sure that customers receive certain benefits from using work management, the through line to the individual project that a team might be leading is they need to know who they're solving for and what it means to have that problem solved.

因此，虽然我们的规划过程是围绕有效定义类别和我们如何获胜，并确保客户从使用工作管理中获得一定的好处，但团队可能领导的单个项目的贯穿路线是他们需要知道他们正在为谁解决问题以及解决问题意味着什么。

So it always starts with enough customer insight such that we can creatively do what they're trying to do.

因此，它总是从足够的客户洞察力开始，这样我们就可以创造性地做他们想做的事情。

I mean, really inventing on behalf of customers.

我的意思是，真正代表客户进行发明。

Lenny: Can you maybe repeat if there's terms for each of those phases?

莱尼：您能否重复一下，每个阶段都有条款吗？

Lenny: Then, is there an example of a feature or product that went through this that you could share?

Lenny：那么，您可以分享一下经历过这种情况的功能或产品的示例吗？

If nothing comes to mind, that's okay.

If nothing comes to mind, that's okay.

Paige Costello: The inflection points are the kickoff, which is that going broad, and then customer and direction selection.

Paige Costello：拐点是开始，即广泛开展，然后是客户和方向选择。

So this is both the target as well as of the 10,000-foot views of how you might pursue solving this problem.

因此，这既是目标，也是您如何寻求解决此问题的 10,000 英尺视角。

Which path are you broadly going to take?

Which path are you broadly going to take?

Then, going broad within that path on different concepts, and then there's a design concept review.

然后，在不同的概念上广泛探索该路径，然后进行设计概念审查。

Then, the products spec.

然后，产品规格。

Then, the full experience review or design crit of the end-to-end experience and launch.

然后，对端到端体验进行全面的体验审查或设计评判并发布。

So that launch review is often just, "Hey, here's the thing.

因此，发布评论通常只是，“嘿，事情是这样的。

Here's what we said.

这就是我们所说的。

Here are the fast-follows." Most of the time, by that time, it's already been dogfooding internally for some time, and it's more of a formal, "Do we have the right metrics in place?

Here are the fast-follows."大多数时候，到那时，内部已经进行了一段时间的测试，而且更正式，“我们是否有正确的指标？

Are we ready to ship?"

我们准备好发货了吗？”

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

Do these reviews happen in person, on Zoom, or asynchronous?

这些评论是亲自进行、通过 Zoom 还是异步进行？

Paige Costello: It depends.

Paige Costello: It depends.

So it depends on the complexity of the work, and it depends how much we want to talk about it.

所以这取决于工作的复杂程度，也取决于我们想谈论它的程度。

A lot of our crits happen in person on the design side.

我们的很多批评都是在设计方面亲自发生的。

A lot of spec reviews are more asynchronous, and then we'll say, "Depending on the number of questions people have, we call a meeting." Otherwise, we do mostly async, but it's a mix.

许多规范审查都是异步的，然后我们会说，“根据人们提出的问题数量，我们召开会议。” Otherwise, we do mostly async, but it's a mix.

It really depends on the complexity and ambiguity of the solution and how much people have questions about asynchronously beforehand.

这实际上取决于解决方案的复杂性和模糊性，以及有多少人事先对异步有疑问。

Lenny: I'm going to take a tangent with my questions here and talk about work from home policy at Asana.

Lenny：我要切题讨论一下 Asana 的在家工作政策。

This is something that I've been wondering more and more about how it's changing because it feels like there's been a shift back to the office.

我越来越想知道它是如何变化的，因为感觉好像又回到了办公室。

So what is the current policy at Asana, and what's changed maybe over the past couple years?

那么 Asana 目前的政策是什么？过去几年可能发生了什么变化？

Paige Costello: Well, we were fully remote during the pandemic, and then we came back to the office in an office-centric hybrid format.

Paige Costello：嗯，在大流行期间我们完全处于远程状态，然后我们以以办公室为中心的混合格式回到办公室。

So we're in the office Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, and then work from home mostly on Wednesdays and Fridays.

所以我们周一、周二、周四在办公室，周三和周五大部分时间在家工作。

That dynamic has been designed from the start.

That dynamic has been designed from the start.

We wanted to make sure that we took advantage of what's great about working together as teams, and so it's been the standard.

我们希望确保我们能够充分利用团队合作的优势，因此这成为了标准。

So I would say what's unique about maybe Asana is we knew we would do that from the very beginning instead of hemming and hawing about would we be a remote workplace or not, and what would that mean, and how would we come together, and how would we budget for it.

所以我想说，Asana 的独特之处在于，我们从一开始就知道我们会这样做，而不是支支吾吾地考虑我们是否要成为远程工作场所，这意味着什么，我们将如何走到一起，以及我们将如何为此制定预算。

We're like, "No, this is going to be an office-centric hybrid," because we wanted to create spaces for people to work together and move quickly.

我们的反应是，“不，这将是一个以办公室为中心的混合体”，因为我们希望为人们创造共同工作和快速行动的空间。

Paige Costello: It's been interesting watching people get back into the swing of things.

Paige Costello：看着人们重新回到正轨是很有趣的。

Even though we knew, it didn't mean that on day one, people were great at being in the office.

尽管我们知道，但这并不意味着人们在第一天就擅长在办公室工作。

People were taking standups sitting down.

People were taking standups sitting down.

Whereas before, you would walk through our office, and you could hear people at standup because there were standup chants, and people would be out on the floor.

而以前，你走过我们的办公室，你可以听到人们站立的声音，因为有站立的口号，人们会趴在地板上。

Now, people are more likely to do their standup in a room, and we're trying the next level of standing up during a standup, but it's...

现在，人们更有可能在一个房间里进行站立，我们正在尝试在站立期间进行下一个级别的站立，但这......

I'm sure it's a shared experience for other people who are working in offices to get used to using the whiteboards again, to get used to standing up during your meetings.

我确信，对于在办公室工作的其他人来说，再次习惯使用白板、习惯在会议期间站起来是一种共同的经历。

It's bizarre that we could lose a muscle that we had that was so innate so quickly, and I think even in the last month, I would say, and it's in June of 2023, there's more vibrancy in the office, more conversation, more casual...

奇怪的是，我们可能会这么快地失去我们天生就有的肌肉，我想说，即使是在上个月，也就是 2023 年 6 月，办公室里也会有更多的活力、更多的谈话、更随意……

someone eating alone at the cafeteria, and someone sitting down next to them.

有人在自助餐厅独自吃饭，有人坐在他们旁边。

So it didn't happen overnight.

所以这不是一夜之间发生的。

Lenny: I've been seeing a lot of tweets of founders just being like, "Work from home has failed.

莱尼：我看到很多创始人的推文，比如“在家工作失败了。

It's time to go back at the office." I'm curious if that ends up rolling into more and more companies, or if it's just a few founders here and there.

It's time to go back at the office."我很好奇这最终是否会影响到越来越多的公司，或者只是个别创始人。

Paige Costello: I think it's a real thing for mental health.

Paige Costello：我认为这对于心理健康来说是一件实实在在的事情。

I do think that having social casual relationships as well as more opportunities to talk strategy with people you're not forced into a meeting room with has been super beneficial.

我确实认为，拥有社交随意的关系以及有更多机会与你不被迫进入会议室的人谈论策略是非常有益的。

I can say that just today, I was having lunch and sat down with my head of data science, and we had an impromptu chat about how we review our experiments and how to evaluate whether we had ROI on learning, not just the metrics.

我可以说，就在今天，我正在吃午餐，并与我的数据科学主管坐下来，我们即兴讨论了如何审查我们的实验以及如何评估我们是否有学习投资回报率，而不仅仅是指标。

It was one of those things where if we had to schedule it, it might not have happened, and if it did happen, it would have been a couple weeks from now.

这是其中一件事，如果我们必须安排它，它可能不会发生，如果它确实发生，那将是几周后的事情。

Lenny: It feels like just coming into the office once or twice...

莱尼：感觉就像只进办公室一两次……

or sorry, being at home once or twice a week is not that different from how things used to be where there was a day of no meetings and a lot of people stayed from home.

或者抱歉，每周在家一两次与过去没有什么不同，一天没有会议，很多人不在家。

So it feels like it's almost reverting back to that.

所以感觉好像几乎又回到了原来的状态。

Paige Costello: Exactly, and people are better at it than they used to be.

Paige Costello：确实如此，而且人们比以前更擅长了。

Paige Costello: So I would say our remote days are more impactful than the days we're together where we're getting into the swing of things.

佩奇·科斯特洛：所以我想说，我们远程办公的日子比我们在一起参与事务的日子更有影响力。

Lenny: Yeah.

莱尼：是的。

I feel like as a PM, the only day I was productive and getting real deep work done was the No-Meeting Wednesday.

我觉得作为一名产品经理，我唯一富有成效并完成真正深入工作的一天是周三不开会。

It was at Airbnb.

那是在爱彼迎。

Paige Costello: Yes.

佩奇·科斯特洛：是的。

I would encourage you to know your chronotype and to lock that time where you have the most head space to do that work.

我鼓励您了解自己的生物钟类型，并将时间锁定在您有最多空间来完成这项工作的时间。

So, for me, it's mornings.

所以，对我来说，现在是早晨。

Lenny: Say more on chronotype.

莱尼：多说一点关于时间类型的事。

What is that?

那是什么？

Paige Costello: I'm a morning person, and so I try to make sure that I don't have any meetings before 10:00, sometimes before 11:00, and that's when I do my hardest task for the day.

Paige Costello：我是一个早起的人，所以我尽量确保在 10:00 之前（有时是在 11:00 之前）没有任何会议，那是我完成一天中最艰巨任务的时间。

Lenny: I also just thought about standups while I was at Airbnb and how not only how much energy they brought, but almost too much energy sometimes where there's like another team doing a standup, and they're just laughing and clapping, and we're just like, "Shh, we're trying to work over here." I feel like we need more of that again.

莱尼：我在 Airbnb 的时候也想到过单口会，他们不仅带来了多少能量，而且有时甚至有太多的能量，就像另一个团队在做单口会，他们只是笑着鼓掌，而我们就像是，“嘘，我们正在努力在这里工作。”我觉得我们再次需要更多这样的东西。

Lenny: Okay.

莱尼：好的。

So, moving in a slightly different direction, something I heard about you is that you're often the youngest person in the room, and you often lead people with decades more experience than you.

因此，朝稍微不同的方向发展，我听说你经常是房间里最年轻的人，而且你经常领导比你有数十年经验的人。

I want to ask, what have you learned about how to garner trust and win over skeptics, especially when they're maybe more experienced or older, and especially in other functions, I don't know, execs or designers, engineers, what have you figured out there?

我想问，关于如何赢得信任和赢得怀疑者，特别是当他们可能更有经验或更年长的时候，特别是在其他职能方面，我不知道，高管或设计师、工程师，你学到了什么？

Paige Costello: The thing I would say is bring the insight.

Paige Costello：我想说的是带来洞察力。

Know thy customer.

了解你的客户。

Know thy market.

了解你的市场。

Know thy competitors.

了解你的竞争对手。

Know thy numbers.

了解你的数字。

Know thy product.

了解你的产品。

If you can be the person in the room who has watched customers use the product and has a point of view about why one tool is significantly better or worse in a given dimension, and you can do that with confidence and clarity, and you don't need to know the other person's functional domain, and you don't need the expertise in what they're experts at, you can bring insight that makes people curious, and trust you, and just immediately believe that there's an opportunity that you're not advocating for that just is true.

如果你是房间里见证客户使用产品的人，并且对为什么一种工具在给定维度上明显更好或更差有自己的看法，并且你可以自信而清晰地做到这一点，并且你不需要了解其他人的功能领域，也不需要他们所擅长的专业知识，那么你可以带来让人们好奇的洞察力，并信任你，并立即相信存在一个你不提倡的机会，这就是事实。

But I think that's a really tricky and unique thing is not to pretend like you have more experience than you do, but to be willing to ask great questions, and then be curious enough that you're bringing insight to every meeting that people may or may not have, but you're always willing to share.

但我认为这是一件非常棘手和独特的事情，不是假装你比实际拥有更多的经验，而是愿意提出伟大的问题，然后保持足够的好奇心，为每次会议带来人们可能有或没有的见解，但你总是愿意分享。

Lenny: That's such a good answer because it's like there's not a trick to it.

莱尼：这是一个很好的答案，因为它就像没有什么窍门一样。

It's just do the work, spend the time to become the person that has answers that people value and obviously, that will respect you, value your opinion, want to hear from you.

只要做好工作，花时间成为一个能得到人们重视的答案的人，显然，他们会尊重你，重视你的意见，希望听到你的意见。

Paige Costello: Yeah.

佩吉·科斯特洛：是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Our former board member, Anne Raimondi, and now our head of business wrote an article on First Round that was really great about the trust equation, and it really resonated with me.

我们的前董事会成员、现在的业务主管安妮·雷蒙迪 (Anne Raimondi) 在 First Round 上写了一篇关于信任方程的文章，这篇文章非常精彩，它引起了我的共鸣。

I don't know if you've heard about it, but she said that trust is equal to credibility plus reliability, plus authenticity, divided by or over perception of self-interest.

我不知道你是否听说过，但她说信任等于可信度加上可靠性，加上真实性，除以或超过对自身利益的感知。

I think when you're met by someone who doesn't know you, doesn't know your work, your job is to create credibility, and that's where I said bringing the insight is where you can really tip the scales here.

我认为，当你遇到一个不认识你、不了解你工作的人时，你的工作就是创造可信度，这就是我所说的带来洞察力的地方，你才能真正扭转局面。

Reliability, this is all about your say-do ratio.

可靠性，这完全取决于你的说做比。

Authenticity is just being vulnerable, being yourself, and then making sure that people know that you're not in it for some other outcome or cause that perception of self-interest really can change whether people...

真实性就是表现出脆弱的一面，做你自己，然后确保人们知道你不是为了其他结果或因为自利的看法确实可以改变人们是否......

how much they trust you.

他们有多信任你。

Lenny: In terms of knowing the insight and knowing thy customer, putting the time, I imagine, is a big element of that.

莱尼：就了解洞察力和了解客户而言，我认为投入时间是其中的一个重要因素。

Is that how you do that, or is there anything else along those lines that's just like, "Here's how I get really good at this?"

你就是这样做的，还是有其他类似的事情，就像“这就是我如何真正擅长于此？”

Paige Costello: When you take a new role, become best friends with a researcher, and spend time watching customers use the product firsthand because what they maybe report on or are trying to do a study about might be very different from what you observe, but you really just need that front row seat with customers, and so asking, "How do I actually set up time with customers?

Paige Costello：当你担任新角色时，与研究人员成为最好的朋友，并花时间观察客户第一手使用产品的情况，因为他们可能报告的内容或正在尝试进行的研究可能与你观察到的内容非常不同，但你真的只需要与客户坐在前排，然后问，“我实际上如何安排与客户的时间？

How do I compensate them?

我该如何补偿他们？

How do I read the tickets?" Whatever.

我如何阅读门票？”任何。

It's amazing how little you have to do to quickly catch up to understanding who the organization is solving for well and poorly, and how people really use your product versus how your teams use your product, especially in organizations where there are heavy dogfooding cultures.

令人惊奇的是，您只需做很少的事情就可以快速了解组织正在为谁解决问题，以及人们如何真正使用您的产品以及您的团队如何使用您的产品，尤其是在存在严重测试文化的组织中。

It's really risky to become less sensitive to the needs and behaviors of customers because people think they are their customer, and it also becomes very navel-gazey.

对客户的需求和行为变得不那么敏感确实是有风险的，因为人们认为他们是他们的客户，而且它也变得非常肤浅。

So I think the more you get out and break up how people are having conversations about what we should do and why, and what we shouldn't do and why, and it's not about your opinion, it's about asking questions, and then bringing insight can really change the nature of the conversation and build trust.

所以我认为，你越多地走出去，打破人们如何就我们应该做什么和为什么，以及我们不应该做什么以及为什么进行对话，这不是关于你的意见，而是关于提出问题，然后带来洞察力可以真正改变对话的性质并建立信任。

Lenny: I love that.

莱尼：我喜欢这个。

In terms of confidence, you talked about the importance of communicating these things confidently.

在信心方面，您谈到了自信地沟通这些事情的重要性。

Is there anything you've learned about how to be more confident?

关于如何变得更加自信，您学到了什么吗？

The managing part of it is like having the answer, but is there anything there that you maybe coach your PMs around or other folks of just like, "Here's how you communicate confidence?"

管理部分就像得到答案，但是有什么可以指导你的产品经理或其他人的，比如“这就是你如何传达信心？”

Paige Costello: It's a great question.

佩奇·科斯特洛：这是一个很好的问题。

I think being brave and courageous in little moments is just what you have to do.

我认为在小时刻勇敢和勇敢正是你必须做的。

You have to show up, and say it before you're ready to say it, and ask for forgiveness, and be vulnerable.

你必须出现，在你准备好说出来之前就说出来，请求原谅，并表现出脆弱的一面。

I think when you're vulnerable, people actually trust you more than if you come with all of this armor and say, "I know this, and this is how we're going to do it." So real confidence is often conveyed by being willing to ask the question or to say, "I don't know what you mean by that.

我认为当你很脆弱时，人们实际上比你全副武装地说：“我知道这一点，这就是我们要做的事情”更信任你。因此，真正的自信通常是通过愿意提出问题或说：“我不知道你的意思。

Can you say that again?" It's also just how you communicate, looking people in the eye, your body position, your body language.

你能再说一遍吗？”这也是你沟通的方式，看着别人的眼睛，你的身体姿势，你的肢体语言。

Paige Costello: So much of this, I think people forget about because it's really easy to be in a meeting, and looking at your computer, and going through Slack messages.

Paige Costello：我认为人们会忘记很多这样的事情，因为参加会议、查看计算机、浏览 Slack 消息真的很容易。

So one of the best things you can do is if you're in a meeting, be in that meeting.

因此，你能做的最好的事情之一就是，如果你正在开会，那就参加那个会议。

Continually scan the faces of everyone in the room, see if someone has a question, pause at the beginning, and welcome people, and chit-chat while people land, and then close asking questions like, "Did I get all of that?

不断地扫描房间里每个人的脸，看看是否有人有问题，在开始时暂停，欢迎人们，在人们落地时闲聊，然后结束时问这样的问题：“我都明白了吗？

Is there anything you would've expected to cover that we missed?" It's really about being open, and that conveys confidence more than being assertive and advocating 100% of the time.

有没有什么是你期望报道而我们错过的？”这实际上是关于开放，这比 100% 的时候表现得自信和倡导更能传达自信。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Round.

莱尼：这一集是由 Round 为您带来的。

Round is the private network built by tech leaders for tech leaders.

Round 是由技术领导者为技术领导者构建的专用网络。

Round combines the best of coaching, learning, and authentic relationships to help you identify where you want to go and accelerate your path to get there, which is why their wait list tops thousands of tech execs.

Round 结合了最好的辅导、学习和真实的关系，帮助你确定你想要去的地方，并加速你到达那里的道路，这就是为什么他们的候补名单排在数千名技术高管的前面。

Round is on a mission to shape the future of technology and its impact on society.

Round 的使命是塑造技术的未来及其对社会的影响。

Leading in tech is uniquely challenging, and doing it well is easiest when surrounded by leaders who understand your day-to-day experiences.

科技领域的领导者具有独特的挑战性，而当领导者了解你的日常经历时，做好这项工作是最容易的。

When we're meeting and building relationships with the right people, we're more likely to learn, find new opportunities, be dynamic in our thinking, and achieve our goals.

当我们与合适的人会面并建立关系时，我们更有可能学习、发现新的机会、思维活跃并实现我们的目标。

Building and managing your network doesn't have to feel like networking.

建立和管理你的网络并不一定像建立网络一样。

Join Round to surround yourself with leaders from tech's most innovative companies.

加入 Round，与来自科技界最具创新性公司的领导者为伍。

Build relationships.

建立关系。

Be inspired.

受到启发。

Take action.

采取行动。

Visit round.tech/apply, and use promo code "LENNY" to skip the wait list.

访问 round.tech/apply，并使用促销代码“LENNY”跳过等待名单。

That's round.tech/apply.

那是 round.tech/apply。

Lenny: From my chats with folks that you work with, it's really clear that you put a lot of time and energy into mentoring and coaching PMs, and your team, and I think probably broadly at Asana.

Lenny：从我与与你一起工作的人的聊天中可以明显看出，你投入了大量的时间和精力来指导和辅导 PM 以及你的团队，我认为可能广泛地在 Asana。

One thing specifically that came up is that you're very big on leading and teaching by example, not just, "Here's how you do this thing." So, if that's true, I'm curious where that came from for you and why you think that ends up being a lot more successful than like, "In a meeting, you should do X, Y, Z," versus doing it, and then letting them see.

特别提出的一件事是，您非常注重领导和以身作则，而不仅仅是“这就是您做这件事的方式”。所以，如果这是真的，我很好奇你的想法从何而来，以及为什么你认为这最终会比“在会议中，你应该做 X、Y、Z”之类的事情成功得多，而不是去做，然后让他们看到。

Paige Costello: I think the main thing is repetition.

Paige Costello：我认为最主要的是重复。

We're all students of repetition.

我们都是重复的学生。

If you see something done a few times, you're more likely to remember it and internalize it, and so it's also something that...

如果你看到某件事做了几次，你就更有可能记住它并将其内化，所以它也是......

a way that I learn, and so I think that's probably part of it.

我学习的一种方式，所以我认为这可能是其中的一部分。

I remember hearing about a framework called the three Es: experience, exposure, and education.

我记得听说过一个称为“三个 E”的框架：经验、接触和教育。

I think it was helpful for me to hear that as a way of growing your career or being more purposeful about your growth because I think when people are earlier in their careers, they tend to think, "Education, education, education," and then they started to think, "Experience, experience.

我认为听到这对我很有帮助，作为职业发展的一种方式，或者让你的成长更有目的性，因为我认为，当人们处于职业生涯的早期时，他们倾向于思考，“教育，教育，教育”，然后他们开始思考，“经验，经验。

How do I get the experience of being a manager?

我如何获得作为一名经理的经验？

I need to read about it, and then be a manager." It's very linear.

我需要阅读相关内容，然后成为一名经理。”这是非常线性的。

Paige Costello: Exposure was such an important one where I thought like, "Okay.

佩奇·科斯特洛：曝光非常重要，我想，“好吧。

So you're not in the driver's seat, but you're in the car, and you hear what's happening, and you're evaluating how this is...

所以你不在驾驶座上，但你在车里，你听到发生了什么，你正在评估这是怎么回事......

what the impact is." This goes back to being really present and analytical, and being a learner because if you can be a learner, not just in an education or experience context, but in an exposure context, you can really grow so much more quickly and in so many more directions than you will get from just what does your day entail from what work is directly required of you.

影响是什么。”这可以追溯到真正的当下和分析，以及成为一个学习者，因为如果你可以成为一个学习者，不仅仅是在教育或经验环境中，而是在接触环境中，你真的可以更快地成长，并且在更多的方向上成长，而不是从你的一天所需要的直接要求你的工作中获得。

Lenny: Is there an example of that happening either to you or you saw a manager leader do this, and you're like, "Oh, I get it now," or you doing that and it helped?

莱尼：有没有这样的例子发生在你身上，或者你看到经理领导这样做，你会说，“哦，我现在明白了，”或者你这样做了，这有帮助？

Paige Costello: So I'll give two examples.

Paige Costello：所以我举两个例子。

I mean, the way I run my meetings are the kind of meetings I want to be a part of.

我的意思是，我举办会议的方式就是我想要参加的会议。

So I try to make sure that I start with a clear agenda, and I move quickly, but give time for conversation and that it's not fully just sharing information, but debating where appropriate.

因此，我努力确保从一个明确的议程开始，并且行动迅速，但要留出时间进行对话，这不仅仅是分享信息，而是在适当的时候进行辩论。

I think knowing how to manage the conversation and courteously pausing people who are going on too long or taking the group in a different direction than was intended, and just think about the experience of everyone there, and create the experience that you hope that they're creating in the rooms that you're not a part of.

我认为知道如何管理对话并礼貌地暂停那些谈话时间过长或将小组带向与预期不同方向的人，并考虑每个人的经历，并创造你希望他们在你不参与的房间中创造的体验。

Paige Costello: An example that I have in terms of experience is sometimes the experience is you doing the thing and getting that experience firsthand.

佩奇·科斯特洛：我在经验方面的一个例子是，有时经验是你做这件事并获得第一手经验。

Other times, you need an education, you need a mentor, you need a coach who will tell you what they're saying or give you advice.

其他时候，你需要教育，需要导师，需要教练，他们会告诉你他们在说什么或给你建议。

I was in a really high-stakes product review at Intuit, and at the end of it, everyone else had left, and the leader of the business unit as she was leaving the room said, "Always answer the question that they should have asked." "Always answer the question they should have asked."

我在 Intuit 进行了一次非常高风险的产品审查，最后，其他人都离开了，业务部门的领导在离开房间时说：“永远回答他们应该问的问题。” “永远回答他们应该问的问题。”

Paige Costello: I was pretty surprised by that advice because it was very profound in the moment because I think when you're a student and you are accustomed...

佩奇·科斯特洛：我对这个建议感到非常惊讶，因为它在当时非常深刻，因为我认为当你是一名学生并且你习惯了......

If you're an achiever, you like to get As.

如果您是一名成功者，您希望获得 A。

You're probably going to hear a question and answer it.

您可能会听到一个问题并回答它。

You're like, "One-to-one, one-to-one, one-to-one." But what I learned from that was that there's actually another altitude, another point of strategy when you're in a meeting or in a conversation to make sure that you're covering the more important point, the bigger picture, the alternative that the person asking the question maybe didn't see or consider.

你就像，“一对一，一对一，一对一。”但我从中学到的是，当你在开会或谈话时，实际上还有另一个高度、另一个策略点，以确保你涵盖更重要的观点、更大的前景、提出问题的人可能没有看到或考虑的替代方案。

So I think the mix of experience, exposure, and education really helps you make sure that you're consciously moving forward on each of those fronts or finding people who can help you there.

因此，我认为经验、接触和教育的结合确实可以帮助你确保你有意识地在这些方面取得进展，或者找到可以帮助你的人。

Lenny: I love that piece of advice, and it makes me want to ask, are there other pieces of advice that have been really impactful to you, or are there common pieces of advice you give to your team that just is a recurring theme of advice that maybe people even make fun of like, "Oh, Paige is always saying this?"

莱尼：我喜欢这条建议，这让我想问，是否还有其他对您真正有影响的建议，或者您向团队提供的常见建议是否只是一个反复出现的建议主题，也许人们甚至会取笑，比如“哦，佩奇总是这么说？”

Paige Costello: There are a few ways to think about advice, and my advice often meets some mark when it's for a particular person in a particular time in their career.

佩奇·科斯特洛：思考建议有几种方法，当我的建议针对职业生涯中特定时期的特定人时，通常会符合一些标准。

So I would say advice I love giving to people who are early in their career is don't self-select because I think it's really easy to say, "I don't have the experience," or, "I'm not X, Y, Z enough," and not apply.

所以我想说，我喜欢给职业生涯早期的人的建议是不要自我选择，因为我认为很容易说“我没有经验”，或者“我不够 X、Y、Z”，而不适用。

So I really push people not to self-select, and I try to remind myself where that's appropriate to do the same thing.

所以我真的敦促人们不要自我选择，并且我试着提醒自己什么地方适合做同样的事情。

Other advice I often give is just think big, ship small.

我经常给出的其他建议是，大处着眼，小处着手。

"Think big, ship small." What's the smallest thing you can do to do that thing?

“大处着想，小处航行。”为了做到这一点，你能做的最小的事情是什么？

But let's not, because we're trying to ship all the time and in small chunks, start thinking in small ways because it's really easy to get a little too incremental, a little too wrapped around the axle around optimizing a metric and miss the bigger picture, and so think big ship small is another piece of product advice I give.

但我们不要这样，因为我们一直在尝试以小块的方式交付，所以开始以小方式思考，因为很容易变得有点过于渐进，有点过于围绕优化指标的轴而错过了更大的前景，所以认为大船小是我给出的另一条产品建议。

Paige Costello: The last piece of advice that I would say that I like is more of a way of thinking.

Paige Costello：我想说的最后一条建议更多的是一种思维方式。

So this is a little abstract, but when employees join Asana, they get a book called The 15 Commitments of a Conscious Leader.

所以这有点抽象，但是当员工加入 Asana 时，他们会得到一本名为《有意识的领导者的 15 项承诺》的书。

It's led by the Conscious Leadership Group.

它由意识领导小组领导。

They also get two-day training on some language and tools for how to effectively work with other people, and it's a really...

他们还接受了为期两天的关于一些语言和工具的培训，以了解如何有效地与其他人合作，这真的是......

For me at least, it was transformational because I learned some vocabulary and methods that I could share with my peers.

至少对我来说，这是一次变革，因为我学到了一些可以与同龄人分享的词汇和方法。

One of the things that you learn is to be above or below the line, and something that is this concept of like, "Where are you?

你学到的一件事就是要高于或低于底线，以及这样的概念，“你在哪里？

Are you above the line?

你在界线之上吗？

Are you below the line?" If you're above the line, you're committed to learning.

你是在底线以下吗？”如果你超越了界限，那么你就会致力于学习。

You're open and curious.

你很开放并且好奇。

Things are funny here, more playful.

这里的事情很有趣，更有趣。

If you're below the line, you're committed to winning.

如果你低于底线，你就致力于获胜。

You're committed to being right.

你承诺自己是对的。

Things are more black and white.

事情更加黑白分明。

Paige Costello: All of us have days where we're having a conversation and we're really in that below line space where it's like, "No, it just is this way.

佩奇·科斯特洛：我们所有人都有进行对话的日子，我们真的处于一个线下空间，就像“不，事情就是这样。

There's no two ways around it." That concept of understanding your personal head space, and then being mindful of how you're operating when you're in that place really was great advice for me and also recognizing where other people were when it related to decisions we were making or context.

没有两种方法可以解决这个问题。”了解你的个人头脑空间，然后注意你在那个地方时的运作方式对我来说确实是很好的建议，并且当它与我们所做的决定或环境相关时，也能识别其他人在哪里。

It also helped me think about rejecting false trade-offs and challenging like...

它还帮助我思考拒绝错误的权衡并挑战......

Effectively, there's this notion of how might the opposite be true, and that's a piece of advice that I give myself like this morning.

实际上，有一种想法是相反的情况可能是正确的，这是我今天早上给自己的一条建议。

Paige Costello: I think it was yesterday, actually.

佩奇·科斯特洛：实际上，我认为那是昨天。

I was like, "How am I going to do tomorrow?

我当时想：“明天我该怎么办？

Tomorrow, I have to deliver the clarity pillar brief to the area leads and make sure they understand our stack ranked metrics, and they need to know exactly what our strategic priorities are and why, and they need nudges, and they need to be able to translate our voice of business and usability lists into those plans.

明天，我必须向区域领导提供清晰度支柱简介，并确保他们了解我们的堆栈排名指标，他们需要确切地知道我们的战略优先事项是什么以及原因，他们需要推动，他们需要能够将我们的业务声音和可用性列表转化为这些计划。

I need to establish a perspective and make sure this is all written down and they really understand it, and I have a great conversation with them where I get open questions and they feel like they can really challenge my thinking.

我需要建立一个观点，并确保这一切都被写下来，并且他们真正理解它，并且我与他们进行了一次愉快的对话，其中我提出了开放性问题，他们觉得他们真的可以挑战我的想法。

I also am having a podcast with Lenny in the afternoon.

下午我还会和莱尼一起做播客。

Ugh." Right?

呃。”正确的？

Paige Costello: At first, it was like, "This is just too much.

佩奇·科斯特洛：一开始，我的感觉是，“这实在是太多了。

I should try to move or cancel one of these." Then, I asked myself, "How might the opposite be true?" I was like, "I can do both." It was just enough to pop the balloon because sometimes your brain is so accustomed to having a scarcity mindset as opposed to creating alternative options or seeing a different path.

我应该尝试移动或取消其中一项。”然后，我问自己：“相反的情况怎么可能成立呢？”我当时想，“我可以两者兼得。”这足以戳破气球，因为有时你的大脑已经习惯了稀缺心态，而不是创造替代选择或看到不同的道路。

The moment I challenged myself and said, "How might the opposite be true?" my shoulders dropped.

当我挑战自己并说：“相反的情况怎么可能是真的呢？”我的肩膀垂了下来。

I felt more relaxed.

我感觉轻松多了。

I was like, "Oh, yeah, I can do both.

我当时想，“哦，是的，我两者都可以。

It will be fine.

会没事的。

We'll have a great conversation.

我们将会有一个愉快的谈话。

I'm ready to show up, and be curious, and really engage with you on the topics that you've found interesting, and we'll just do that.

我已经准备好出现，并保持好奇心，并真正与您就您感兴趣的话题进行互动，我们就会这样做。

So, "How might the opposite be true?" has been a really helpful piece of advice or line of questioning that I use with myself to make sure that I'm not taking myself away.

那么，“相反的情况怎么可能成立呢？”这是一个非常有用的建议或问题，我用它来确保我不会把自己带走。

Lenny: Wow.

莱尼：哇。

What a fruitful question that ended up being.

最终提出了一个多么富有成果的问题。

That was amazing.

太棒了。

How does clarity pillars strategy go?

清晰度支柱战略进展如何？

Are people into it?

人们热衷于此吗？

Is it working?

有效吗？

Paige Costello: Yeah.

佩吉·科斯特洛：是的。

I'm pumped.

我很兴奋。

It's a really interesting time to be a product leader, especially with all of the tech transform...

对于成为产品领导者来说，这是一个非常有趣的时刻，尤其是在所有技术转型的情况下......

Truly, the technological transformation on LLMs is astonishing, the pace of development, the ability of our teams to just ship quickly and ship really intelligent things.

确实，法学硕士的技术变革是惊人的，发展的速度，我们团队快速交付和交付真正智能的东西的能力。

We're not in an operational "figure it out" land.

我们还没有处于可操作的“弄清楚”状态。

We're not in a place where we're trying to decide how to do a better job and get it out to customers.

我们并不是在努力决定如何做得更好并将其提供给客户。

We really have lots of interesting paths forward and are trying to make sure that we're on the cutting edge while really looking at like, "What does it mean to serve the companies and organizations that we want to serve with new ways of serving them?" So it was a really fun conversation, and I also had to be honest with people and say, "This is a 70% cut.

我们确实有很多有趣的前进道路，并且正在努力确保我们处于领先地位，同时真正关注这样的问题：“用新的服务方式为我们想要服务的公司和组织提供服务意味着什么？”所以这是一次非常有趣的谈话，我也必须诚实地告诉人们，“这是 70% 的削减。

30% of this is missing or incorrect, and that's why I'm coming to you early." So I think it went really well, and it's the start of our 12-month rolling planning conversation.

其中 30% 缺失或不正确，这就是我提前来找您的原因。”所以我认为进展非常顺利，这是我们为期 12 个月的滚动计划对话的开始。

Lenny: Let me pull on this AI thread because it's clearly top of mind for a lot of people.

Lenny：让我来谈谈这个人工智能主题，因为它显然是很多人的首要考虑因素。

Lenny: How do you think about splitting up investment in AI exploration within the product team?

Lenny：您如何看待在产品团队内部分配人工智能探索的投资？

Are you like, "Hey, team.

你是否会说，“嘿，团队。

Everyone should be thinking about AI as part of their product," or is it there's a team where they're going to think about AI and LLM integrations and, "Everyone else, keep doing what you're doing?"

每个人都应该将人工智能视为他们产品的一部分，”或者是否有一个团队会考虑人工智能和法学硕士集成，并且“其他人，继续做你正在做的事情吗？”

Paige Costello: We've had an ML team for quite some time, making sure that we have test prioritization models and notification prioritization models, and are making our product less work for people to use.

Paige Costello：我们的 ML 团队已经有一段时间了，确保我们拥有测试优先级模型和通知优先级模型，并让我们的产品减少人们使用时的工作量。

But when it came to the massive leap forward in LLMs recently, we staffed a team to really prototype quickly, and discover what was possible, and just apply hypotheses outside of the typical norms of how we work.

但是，当最近法学硕士取得巨大飞跃时，我们组建了一个团队来快速构建原型，发现什么是可能的，并在我们工作的典型规范之外应用假设。

So they went straight to prototyping instead of going through that Double Diamond I was explaining earlier.

因此，他们直接进行原型设计，而不是经历我之前解释的双钻石。

What that meant was that we were really quickly able to say, "Wow, this is just so much better than we imagined and would never have prioritized it because we thought it would take so much longer." Then, in other cases, "That sounded good in theory."

这意味着我们很快就能说：“哇，这比我们想象的要好得多，而且我们永远不会优先考虑它，因为我们认为这需要更长的时间。”然后，在其他情况下，“这在理论上听起来不错。”

Paige Costello: So skipping a lot of that to just really try it on for a size has been key, and then what we're doing is giving the teams with the most expertise in the customer problems.

Paige Costello：因此，跳过很多步骤，直接试穿尺寸是关键，然后我们正在做的是为团队提供解决客户问题的最专业知识。

For example, status and progress reporting, the keys to that car and saying like, "Here's the starter.

例如，状态和进度报告、汽车钥匙以及诸如“这是起动机。

Here's the hypothesis.

这是假设。

Here's how far we got with it.

这是我们已经取得的进展。

It's dogfooding.

这是狗粮。

What do you want to do?" So we're able to nudge people without wasting time and build the skills locally within the teams that then move those experiences forward.

你想做什么？”因此，我们能够在不浪费时间的情况下推动人们，并在团队内部培养本地技能，然后推动这些体验的发展。

Lenny: I want to come back to the coaching topic.

莱尼：我想回到教练的话题。

I had a few questions there that I moved off of, but I feel like that's a rich area of exploration.

我在那里提出了一些问题，但我觉得这是一个值得探索的丰富领域。

You mentioned Intuit.

你提到了直觉。

You worked at Intuit.

您曾在 Intuit 工作。

Intuit is famous for having a really good APM program and really good training for product managers.

Intuit 因拥有非常好的 APM 计划和非常好的产品经理培训而闻名。

What did you take away from that experience that you bring with you to coaching or even I think there's an APM program at Asana, too?

你从你带去教练的经历中得到了什么，甚至我认为 Asana 也有一个 APM 项目？

Paige Costello: Intuit had excellent training programs, the APM program and their manager training.

Paige Costello：Intuit 拥有出色的培训计划、APM 计划及其经理培训。

So, on the PM front, the biggest thing that they taught was around customer centricity, and it really started with the founding of the company.

因此，在 PM 方面，他们教导的最重要的事情是以客户为中心，而这实际上是从公司成立时开始的。

For anyone who works at Intuit or has worked at Intuit, they know that there's this story about Scott Cook watching his wife balancing her checkbook at the kitchen table, and staring at it, and saying, "There's got to be a better way, a software." So it was very typical for the product training at Intuit to be all about like, "How do you actually watch customers using your product or just doing the things they do, collecting the artifacts, knowing the workarounds, and using that experience to build opportunities for surprise and insight that then you can capitalize and create products around?" They also are very specific about how they define durable advantage and think about, overall, the product process from a place of customer insight through to the market landscape.

对于任何在 Intuit 工作或曾经在 Intuit 工作过的人来说，他们都知道有这样一个故事：斯科特·库克 (Scott Cook) 看着他的妻子在厨房的桌子上平衡她的支票簿，盯着它说，“必须有一个更好的方法，一个软件。”因此，Intuit 的产品培训非常典型，都是这样的：“你如何实际观察客户使用你的产品或只是做他们所做的事情，收集工件，了解解决方法，并利用这种经验来创造惊喜和洞察力的机会，然后你可以利用这些机会并围绕这些机会创造产品？”他们对于如何定义持久优势也非常具体，并从总体上考虑从客户洞察到市场格局的产品流程。

So the PM program there was absolutely super thoughtful, especially for taking someone who has never PMed into being a super skilled PM.

所以那里的 PM 项目绝对是超级周到的，特别是把一个从来没有做过 PM 的人培养成一个超级熟练的 PM。

Paige Costello: They also have a wonderful manager training program, and I think the biggest thing that I took away from their manager training was really on the feedback slide.

Paige Costello：他们还有一个很棒的经理培训计划，我认为我从他们的经理培训中学到的最重要的东西实际上是在反馈幻灯片上。

So delivering feedback is something that I think everyone benefits from, but for managers, it's so much more critical because if you don't do it, and you don't say what you mean, and you don't do it in a way that it can be internalized and acted upon, you really don't set up your teammates, your teams for growth or success in their careers.

因此，我认为提供反馈是每个人都受益的事情，但对于管理者来说，这更为重要，因为如果你不这样做，你不说出你的意思，并且你不以可以内化和采取行动的方式这样做，你真的无法帮助你的队友，你的团队在职业生涯中成长或成功。

So their program for helping you think about like, "Okay.

所以他们的程序可以帮助你思考，“好吧。

I'm going to convey this feedback as situation, behavior, impact.

我将把这种反馈作为情况、行为、影响来传达。

The situation is on Tuesday in that meeting at 3:00.

情况是在周二下午 3:00 的那次会议上。

Behavior, you interrupted me while I was saying this thing.

行为，你在我说这件事的时候打断了我。

Impact, made me feel like you weren't listening to me or made me feel like your voice was more important than mine, or impact, blah, blah, blah."

影响，让我觉得你没有在听我说话，或者让我觉得你的声音比我的更重要，或者影响，等等，等等，等等。”

Paige Costello: It doesn't matter what the impact is because the way you've set it up is it's a subjective observation.

Paige Costello：影响有多大并不重要，因为你设置它的方式是主观观察。

It's not what the camera recorded, it's what you experienced.

这不是相机记录的，而是你经历的。

Therefore, it is true and valuable feedback, and it gets the conversation started such that you can then talk about next steps.

因此，这是真实且有价值的反馈，它可以开始对话，以便您可以讨论后续步骤。

That format and framing really helped me understand that delivering feedback isn't about being right or about getting the right information to the other person.

这种格式和框架确实帮助我理解，提供反馈并不意味着正确或向他人提供正确的信息。

It's about sharing the impact of different decisions that they're making.

这是关于分享他们所做的不同决策的影响。

So, especially if you have to give feedback about, God forbid, what someone wears to the office, or how do you feel their work is, or how they're communicating or their body language, having an enough support where you can be really clear about what you're intending and the spirit behind that, but that it's formalized enough that people can really engage with it has been enormously helpful, and I still use it today.

所以，特别是如果你必须提供反馈，上帝禁止，某人在办公室穿什么，或者你觉得他们的工作怎么样，或者他们如何沟通或他们的肢体语言，有足够的支持，你可以真正清楚你的意图和背后的精神，但它足够正式，人们可以真正参与其中，这是非常有帮助的，我今天仍然在使用它。

Lenny: It's interesting how some of the most impactful training is such soft skills.

莱尼：有趣的是，一些最有影响力的培训就是这样的软技能。

Lenny: It's just how to give someone some feedback, but it's like, "Know how to prioritize, how to do a meeting, how to give a presentation."

莱尼：这只是如何给某人一些反馈，但这就像“知道如何确定优先顺序，如何召开会议，如何进行演示。”

Lenny: It's like, "Here's how you give feedbacks."

莱尼：就像，“这就是你给出反馈的方式。”

Lenny: So you've worked with a lot of early product managers.

Lenny：所以你和很多早期的产品经理一起工作过。

I'm curious what you find most holds back new PMs and help them being successful in their career, and even on the flip side, what most helps new PMs be successful in terms of skills or behaviors, habits, things like that?

我很好奇你发现什么最能阻碍新产品经理并帮助他们在职业生涯中取得成功，甚至在另一方面，什么最能帮助新产品经理在技能或行为、习惯等方面取得成功？

Paige Costello: I would say this illusion that you have to be all-knowing and super confident sets you up to be in a place of advocacy instead of inquiry.

佩奇·科斯特洛：我想说的是，这种你必须无所不知且超级自信的错觉会让你处于倡导而不是探究的位置。

So PMs who are newer in their careers or who are in a different space than they're accustomed to working really want to be pro really fast.

因此，刚进入职业生涯或处于与他们习惯工作不同的空间的产品经理确实希望快速成为专业人士。

What pro means is trying to cut that straight path, and that can reduce information and conversation that makes you smarter.

专业人士的意思是尝试开辟这条直线，这可以减少使您变得更聪明的信息和对话。

So some of the challenges that some PMs face are feeling like they need to be the expert, they need to be the smartest person in the room, or God forbid, they think they're the smartest person in the room.

因此，一些产品经理面临的一些挑战是感觉他们需要成为专家，他们需要成为房间里最聪明的人，或者上帝保佑，他们认为自己是房间里最聪明的人。

Paige Costello: Then, what happens is they're really doing that customer, or product discovery, or spec in a little dark room.

Paige Costello：然后，他们实际上是在一个小暗室里做客户、产品发现或规格。

Then, they show up, and they say, "This is it.

然后，他们出现了，他们说：“就是这样。

This is right.

这是对的。

I know it's right, and let's do this as quickly as possible." Everyone else says, "Wait.

我知道这是对的，让我们尽快做到这一点。”其他人都说：“等等。

What?

什么？

I don't know.

我不知道。

I have a question," or they don't, and they still have a question, which is even worse.

我有一个问题，”或者他们没有，但他们仍然有一个问题，这更糟糕。

So I would say something that really holds PMs back is not being collaborative from a place of true curiosity like performative collaboration where they're not in a room or want to do a review, but ultimately, they don't really want the questions or the feedback.

因此，我想说，真正阻碍项目经理的事情不是从真正好奇的地方进行协作，例如表演性协作，他们不在一个房间里或不想进行审查，但最终，他们并不真正想要问题或反馈。

Paige Costello: I think trying to make sure that you can be in a place of curiosity and openness because that will make your experience more successful is really important.

Paige Costello：我认为努力确保您能够处于好奇心和开放的状态，因为这将使您的体验更加成功，这一点非常重要。

Other people aren't always going to be right, but if you're present for it, you can ask clarifying questions.

其他人并不总是正确的，但如果你在场，你可以提出澄清问题。

You can ask the question behind the question.

你可以问问题背后的问题。

You can hear the feedback, and then say, "Was that something that I must do, that I should do, or that I should consider?" You can actually develop a conversation that will move your relationship forward, and so I would say that's something that I think holds PMs back.

你可以听到反馈，然后说：“这是我必须做、应该做或者应该考虑的事情吗？”实际上，你可以开展一次对话来推动你们的关系向前发展，所以我想说，我认为这是阻碍 PM 的因素。

Paige Costello: PMs tend to be so ambitious and career-centric.

Paige Costello：产品经理往往雄心勃勃、以职业为中心。

There are so many good things about that, but I would say don't let the sound of your wheels drive you crazy.

这有很多好处，但我想说不要让车轮的声音让你发疯。

If you're present in your job, and you actually have fun with it and solve the problems, people will come out of the woodwork, say, "You're great, and tell your boss you should be promoted." You don't need to ask for a promotion.

如果你专注于你的工作，而且你确实乐在其中并解决了问题，人们就会突然说：“你很棒，并告诉你的老板你应该升职。”您无需要求升职。

Your outcomes should speak for themselves.

你的结果应该不言而喻。

Yes, you should have sponsors and people who advocate for you, but a lot of that just comes from that raw connection to the work and to your team.

是的，你应该有赞助商和支持你的人，但其中很多只是来自于与工作和团队的原始联系。

Lenny: Everyone I talked to about you is like, "Oh my god, I love Paige." I could see why, but I want to ask you a question.

莱尼：与我谈论过你的每个人都说，“天哪，我爱佩奇。”我明白为什么，但我想问你一个问题。

I imagine you've made some mistakes either with a product or your career.

我想你在产品或职业生涯中犯了一些错误。

I'd love to hear a story of something that went wrong and what you learned from that experience.

我很想听听有关错误的故事以及您从这次经历中学到的教训。

This might be the last question, depending where you take it.

这可能是最后一个问题，具体取决于您提出的问题。

Paige Costello: I would say that all of the advice I've given so far is directly related to things I've learned the hard way.

Paige Costello：我想说的是，到目前为止我给出的所有建议都与我通过艰难的方式学到的东西直接相关。

So, especially as an IC moving into a management role, you aren't supposed to have all the answers.

因此，特别是作为 IC 进入管理职位时，您不应该知道所有答案。

You need to ask better questions.

你需要提出更好的问题。

You need to be thoughtful about direction and agency.

您需要深思熟虑方向和代理。

So I would say one of the missteps here is knowing how to give guidance or direction in a way that doesn't feel like micromanagement because what you're trying to do is to teach a repeatable pattern instead of giving a precise instruction that can be used once, and then disposed of.

所以我想说这里的一个失误是知道如何以一种不像微观管理的方式提供指导或方向，因为你想做的是教授可重复的模式，而不是给出可以使用一次然后处理掉的精确指令。

Paige Costello: So I think that's a pretty common manager path issue, but I think the faster you learn it, and observe it, and use techniques to manage it, the better.

Paige Costello：所以我认为这是一个非常常见的经理路径问题，但我认为你学习它、观察它并使用技术来管理它的速度越快越好。

So, for example, I would go to my meetings with a stack of Post-Its, and I would write what I wish I was saying on Post-Its and see if someone else would say it first.

例如，我会带着一堆便利贴去参加会议，然后我会在便利贴上写下我希望说的话，看看其他人是否会先说。

Then, if by the end of the meeting, I had decided that I still had a Post-It or two that was worthwhile, I would say them.

然后，如果在会议结束时，我认为我还有一两张值得使用的便利贴，我就会说出来。

But you've got to police yourself because no one else will do it because no matter how accessible you think you are, other people know that you're the boss.

但你必须监督自己，因为没有其他人会这样做，因为无论你认为自己多么平易近人，其他人都知道你是老板。

They're not going to necessarily speak over you or challenge you directly.

他们不一定会支持你或直接挑战你。

Paige Costello: Another challenge I had is I'm a very optimistic person, and I like to look on the bright side.

Paige Costello：我面临的另一个挑战是我是一个非常乐观的人，我喜欢看到光明的一面。

I'm very positive, and I think depending on the culture you're working with or depending on your team, sometimes they need to hear what's really bad, and they need you to be really real, and they need you to tell them like it is.

我非常积极，我认为取决于你所合作的文化或取决于你的团队，有时他们需要听到什么是真正糟糕的，他们需要你真正真实，他们需要你如实告诉他们。

Something I realized was that I had an experience where I didn't realize that people didn't think I was being authentic because they thought something was bad, and I wasn't talking about it, but it wasn't because I didn't think it was bad or didn't see.

我意识到，我有过一次经历，我没有意识到人们认为我不真实，因为他们认为某件事很糟糕，而我没有谈论它，但这并不是因为我不认为它很糟糕或没有看到。

It was just because my nature was to say, "Well, I'm not going to talk about bad things because we're doing the things we need to do." As long as the plan is good, I wasn't really highlighting all the problems I saw or really pushing on those head on with my team, and so they felt like they didn't know what I was seeing or if we were saying the same things.

只是因为我的本性是说：“好吧，我不会谈论坏事，因为我们正在做我们需要做的事情。”只要计划是好的，我就不会真正强调我看到的所有问题，也不会真正与我的团队一起推动这些问题，所以他们觉得他们不知道我看到了什么，或者我们是否在说同样的事情。

That was really an interesting experience.

这真是一次有趣的经历。

Yeah, there were just so many.

是的，有这么多。

Yeah.

是的。

Lenny: With that second lesson, is there something you've changed in the way you lead and operate where you now found a way to communicate, "Here's wrong," in a way that's still maybe optimistic and productive?

莱尼：通过第二堂课，您的领导和运作方式是否发生了一些改变，您现在找到了一种沟通方式，“这是错误的”，而这种方式仍然可能是乐观和富有成效的？

Paige Costello: I try to be more real with myself and others.

Paige Costello：我尝试对自己和他人更加真实。

I try to show up and say like, "Hey, this is incomplete." For example, even the thing I did this morning, the clarity brief.

我试着出现并说：“嘿，这还不完整。”例如，即使是我今天早上做的事情，也很简单。

I said, "This is 70% finish.

我说：“这已经完成了 70%。

The 30% that I don't believe is there yet are these three things.

我不相信存在的那 30% 是这三件事。

I don't feel confident in this piece of it, and hopefully, we'll have more clarity by next week." So that's an example of just being as real with the small things as with the big things so that people can balance their perspective of you and your work, and the organization and the environment you're creating.

我对这一部分没有信心，希望下周我们会更加清楚。”因此，这是一个对待小事和对待大事一样真实的例子，这样人们就可以平衡他们对你和你的工作、你所创建的组织和环境的看法。

Lenny: I'm curious how you think about your career going forward.

莱尼：我很好奇你如何看待你未来的职业生涯。

How far out do you think where you want to be, and how do you plan out the future of Paige's career?

你认为你想要达到的目标有多远？你如何规划佩奇职业生涯的未来？

Paige Costello: I try to be really intentional about staying as much as leaving a role.

佩奇·科斯特洛（Paige Costello）：我努力像离开一个角色一样刻意留下来。

When I think about my career as a whole, I try to think about skills or experiences I want to have as opposed to roles, or companies, or specific problems.

当我从整体上思考我的职业生涯时，我会尝试考虑我想要拥有的技能或经验，而不是角色、公司或具体问题。

So something that I think about is...

所以我想到的是......

Effectively, I evaluate whether I'm in a healthy role and in a good setup by asking myself about my learning curve like, "Is the steepness of my learning curve doing me a favor here?" because sometimes you might love the organization, love the problem, and feel like you're just not learning, or learning fast enough, or being challenged.

实际上，我通过询问自己的学习曲线来评估自己是否处于健康的角色和良好的设置中，比如“我的学习曲线的陡峭在这里对我有利吗？”因为有时你可能喜欢这个组织，喜欢这个问题，但感觉你只是没有学习，或者学得不够快，或者没有受到挑战。

Paige Costello: That's something that I think is really important.

Paige Costello：我认为这非常重要。

So thinking about the learning curve, thinking about whether the environment is positively impacting your ability to grow your career and make an impact.

因此，请考虑学习曲线，考虑环境是否对您职业发展和产生影响的能力产生积极影响。

So, environmentally, you might have not enough staffing or tooling, or have someone in the management team who is toxic, or have a peer who is blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

因此，在环境方面，您可能没有足够的人员或工具，或者管理团队中有人有毒，或者有一个同事是废话，废话，废话，废话，废话。

That stuff matters, and I think people don't talk about it or take it seriously enough that your environment should include people who are advocating for you, and it should just be a place where you feel you've got the right ingredients to set you up to do the good work.

这些东西很重要，我认为人们并没有谈论它或认真对待它，以至于你的环境应该包括为你辩护的人，而且它应该只是一个让你觉得你拥有正确的要素来让你做好工作的地方。

Paige Costello: Then, the third piece is really around just the problem, the problem your product is solving.

Paige Costello：那么，第三部分实际上就是围绕问题，即你的产品正在解决的问题。

Is it fun?

好玩吗？

Is it interesting?

有趣吗？

I often like to think about passions are made, not found because I think people...

我经常喜欢思考激情是被创造出来的，而不是被发现的，因为我认为人们......

We do this with nine-year-olds.

我们对九岁的孩子这样做。

We say, "What do you want to be when you grow up?" They look cross-eyed, and they say, "An astronaut.

我们问：“你长大后想做什么？”他们看起来斗鸡眼，然后说：“一名宇航员。

Just getting a vet.

刚去找兽医。

I don't know." There's this moment of panic, and I would say that being comfortable, saying like, "Go try different things, and see if the problem is interesting to you and if the problem is fun or interesting to you." It doesn't mean it has to be sexy.

我不知道。”在这个恐慌的时刻，我会说要舒服，比如说，“去尝试不同的事情，看看这个问题对你来说是否有趣，以及这个问题对你来说是否有趣或有趣。”这并不意味着它必须性感。

It doesn't mean the company needs to have a brand name.

这并不意味着公司需要拥有品牌名称。

It just has to be something that you're curious about so that you do a better job at your job.

它必须是您感兴趣的事情，这样您才能更好地完成工作。

So I would say learning curve environment and problem are things that I use to assess like, "Am I still on the right path, or should I consider an alternative?" But when I think about my own career, I really think about skills and experiences as opposed to roles.

所以我想说，学习曲线环境和问题是我用来评估的东西，比如“我仍然走在正确的道路上，还是应该考虑替代方案？”但当我思考自己的职业生涯时，我真正考虑的是技能和经验，而不是角色。

So I would say that that's more my frame of reference because otherwise, I think I am living in the future and not enough trying to make the most out of the career I'm living right now.

所以我想说，这更多的是我的参考框架，因为否则，我认为我生活在未来，而没有足够努力地充分利用我现在的职业生涯。

Lenny: Well, with that, we've reached our very exciting lightning round.

莱尼：好了，我们已经进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。

I've got six questions for you.

我有六个问题要问你。

Are you ready?

你准备好了吗？

Lenny: What are two or three books that you've recommended most to other people?

莱尼：你向其他人推荐最多的两三本书是什么？

Paige Costello: My go-to book recommendation for other PMs is inspired by Marty Cagan.

Paige Costello：我向其他产品经理推荐的首选书籍受到 Marty Cagan 的启发。

I think it's a classic.

我认为这是一个经典。

The other books that I have enjoyed and recommended lately are The Blind Assassin by Margaret Atwood and The Alchemist by Paulo Coelho.

我最近喜欢和推荐的其他书是玛格丽特·阿特伍德的《盲刺客》和保罗·科埃略的《炼金术士》。

Lenny: What is a favorite recent movie or TV show?

莱尼：最近最喜欢的电影或电视节目是什么？

Paige Costello: Ooh, I'm very much enjoying The Diplomat right now, and then TV show or movie.

佩奇·科斯特洛：哦，我现在非常喜欢《外交官》，然后是电视节目或电影。

Let's see.

让我们来看看。

I just watched the Fire of Love documentary, which is about a couple who study volcanoes, and that was a great change of pace.

我刚刚看了《爱之火》纪录片，讲述了一对研究火山的夫妇的故事，这是一个巨大的节奏变化。

Lenny: I saw the trailer for that.

莱尼：我看过预告片。

I think I got to watch that, and I finished The Diplomat.

我想我必须看这个，而且我看完了《外交官》。

It's awesome.

太棒了。

It ends really well.

结局真的很好。

Lenny: But it's just good.

莱尼：但是这样就很好了。

I'm just saying it's good.

我只是说这很好。

That's not spoiling.

这不是破坏。

Lenny: Okay.

莱尼：好的。

Next question.

下一个问题。

What's a favorite interview question that you like to ask candidates?

您最喜欢问应聘者的面试问题是什么？

Paige Costello: The good news is I can tell you this and still keep asking it because the answer has always come up differently.

Paige Costello：好消息是我可以告诉你这一点，并且仍然会继续问这个问题，因为答案总是不同的。

So I like to ask, "Tell me about a time something went wrong.

所以我喜欢问，“告诉我一次出了问题的情况。

What was it?

那是什么？

What did you do about it?

你对此做了什么？

Yada, yada." Effectively, the question gets that, "When the product failed," When something about the team didn't work," just things that go wrong because that's what happens when you're doing this work, and evaluating people's mindset, and the way they talk about it, and the way they relate to evaluating the situation.

雅达，雅达。”实际上，问题是，“当产品失败时”，当团队的某些方面不起作用时，“只是出了问题，因为这就是当你做这项工作、评估人们的心态、他们谈论它的方式以及他们评估情况的方式时会发生的情况。

I think it's a great question.

我认为这是一个很好的问题。

Really tells you a lot about how people think and how they perceive themselves when things are not working well.

确实告诉你很多关于人们如何思考以及当事情进展不顺利时他们如何看待自己。

Lenny: What is a favorite product that you've recently discovered that you love?

Lenny：您最近发现自己喜欢的最喜欢的产品是什么？

Paige Costello: I've been playing a lot with Poe.com lately.

Paige Costello：我最近经常使用 Poe.com。

Yeah, just an opportunity to learn more about LLM capabilities in a firsthand way.

是的，这只是一个亲身了解 LLM 能力的机会。

It's been fun to create little bots.

创建小机器人很有趣。

I'm playing with making a page bot.

我正在制作一个页面机器人。

I can't say that the page bot could have had this conversation yet, but maybe next year at this time, you can have a conversation with the other me.

我还不能说页面机器人已经可以进行这样的对话，但也许明年的这个时候，你可以和另一个我进行对话。

Lenny: That's what the page bot would say if this was the page bot talking right now.

Lenny：如果这是寻呼机器人现在正在说话的话，这就是寻呼机器人会说的话。

Paige Costello: I would say though that the advice, bits and bobs, I gave you earlier are absolutely things that I've been thinking about feeding, but I think the page bot would probably say, "Ship it."

Paige Costello：我想说的是，我之前给你的建议、点滴绝对是我一直在考虑提供的东西，但我认为页面机器人可能会说，“发货”。

Lenny: Poe.

莱尼：坡。

It's the Quora founder's LLM chat bot?

这是 Quora 创始人的 LLM 聊天机器人？

Paige Costello: Yeah, and so you can try the different models.

Paige Costello：是的，所以你可以尝试不同的模型。

So you can do four, and you play five, and Claude, and a few others.

所以你可以做四个，然后你玩五个，还有克劳德和其他一些人。

Yeah.

是的。

Lenny: There's also a lennybot.com for folks that haven't seen this.

Lenny：还有一个 lennybot.com，供那些还没有见过这个的人使用。

Actually, there's a whole post on my newsletter of how it was built, and you get a lennybot.com.

事实上，我的时事通讯上有一整篇文章介绍了它是如何构建的，你会得到一个 lennybot.com。

It is trained on all of my newsletter posts, and I think...

它接受了我所有新闻通讯帖子的训练，我认为......

not yet podcasts, but someday it will have podcasts.

还没有播客，但有一天它会有播客。

Lenny: By the way, someone listening to this, we're looking for someone to maintain this bot and evolve it.

莱尼：顺便说一句，有人听到这个，我们正在寻找人来维护这个机器人并改进它。

So if you're really into this stuff and have done this sort of thing, please DM me on Twitter.

因此，如果你真的很喜欢这些东西并且做过这类事情，请在 Twitter 上私信我。

I'm looking for someone to take over lennybot.com, make it more...

我正在寻找人来接管 lennybot.com，使其变得更加......

Moving on.

继续前进。

Enough about me.

关于我就够了。

Next question.

下一个问题。

What is something relatively minor you've changed in your product development process that has had a big impact on your team's ability to execute?

您在产品开发过程中进行了哪些相对较小的更改，但对您团队的执行能力产生了重大影响？

Paige Costello: One of the biggest ones is just, once again, being real about how many reviews and approvals it takes for something to get done and who's actually responsible for reviewing and approving work.

Paige Costello：最大的问题之一就是，再一次，要真实地了解完成某件事需要多少次审查和批准，以及谁真正负责审查和批准工作。

So we got really aggressive about, functionally, who is in charge and at what level for a given review, and pushed to say to actually have limits on the number of people per meeting, on the number of sub-task reviews for a given body of work.

因此，我们在功能上非常积极地确定谁负责以及特定审查的级别，并推动说实际上对每次会议的人数以及特定工作的子任务审查数量进行了限制。

What this did is it created a lot more agency and pace within given working teams.

这样做的作用是在给定的工作团队中创造了更多的代理权和节奏。

So what we did was we said, "We actually don't care.

所以我们所做的就是说：“我们实际上不在乎。

We don't want a daisy chain of approvals.

我们不想要菊花链式的审批。

We just want one person with whom the buck can stop with them, and they can be responsible for how the work moves forward such that the knowledge is known and we could have connected the dots more effectively than we do or did." So that's the logic there, and it really changed the pace and quality of our work.

我们只需要一个可以与他们一起承担责任的人，他们可以负责工作如何向前推进，这样知识就被了解了，我们可以比我们现在或过去更有效地将各个点联系起来。”这就是那里的逻辑，它确实改变了我们工作的节奏和质量。

Lenny: I love that.

莱尼：我喜欢这个。

Is there any more you could share, a number?

还有更多可以分享的吗？数字？

What is the maximum?

最大是多少？

Is there anything that other people maybe can take as a-

有什么东西可以被其他人视为——

Paige Costello: Yeah.

佩吉·科斯特洛：是的。

So no more than three reviews on a given piece of work where people are blocking one approver.

因此，对于某项特定工作，阻止一名审批者的评论不得超过 3 次。

If a meeting has more than 10 people on it, we ask the person hosting the meeting to kick out the other people and write better decision notes.

如果会议人数超过 10 人，我们会要求会议主持人将其他人踢出并写出更好的决策说明。

Lenny: The three reviews is three meetings looking at the product as it's coming together, basically?

莱尼：这三个评论是指在产品组合在一起时进行的三次会议，基本上是这样吗？

Paige Costello: The three reviews are three people who are assigned a task to look at something, but only one person is blocking whether it moves to the next stage.

Paige Costello：三个评论是三个人被分配任务来查看某件事，但只有一个人阻止它是否进入下一阶段。

Lenny: Got it.

莱尼：明白了。

Informed people?

知情人士？

Stakeholders?

利益相关者？

Lenny: Decision-makers?

莱尼：决策者？

Okay.

好的。

Great.

太棒了。

Final question.

最后一个问题。

You work at Asana.

你在 Asana 工作。

What is your favorite Asana pro tip?

您最喜欢的体式专业技巧是什么？

Paige Costello: I use Asana to run all my meetings and assign pre-reads.

Paige Costello：我使用 Asana 来召开所有会议并分配预读内容。

So I use the multi-assign feature in subtasks all the time where I make a task with a due date that says, "Read this thing by this date," and then I assign it to a team or a set of individuals like that really quickly.

因此，我一直在子任务中使用多重分配功能，其中我会制定一个带有截止日期的任务，上面写着“在此日期之前阅读此内容”，然后我会很快地将其分配给一个团队或一组个人。

Then, when I'm in the meeting, I take notes live in a task, and then highlight parts of those notes, and convert them into subtasks so that none of the action items get lost.

然后，当我参加会议时，我会在任务中实时记笔记，然后突出显示这些笔记的部分内容，并将它们转换为子任务，这样就不会丢失任何操作项。

Lenny: Wow.

莱尼：哇。

You need to make a video or blog post about this.

您需要制作有关此的视频或博客文章。

Not only is it using Asana to build Asana, it's using Asana to run teams within Asana.

它不仅使用 Asana 来构建 Asana，还使用 Asana 在 Asana 内管理团队。

Paige Costello: Yeah.

佩吉·科斯特洛：是的。

It definitely does that, but-

它确实做到了这一点，但是-

Paige Costello: People know who's responsible for what they want.

Paige Costello：人们知道谁对他们想要的东西负责。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

Paige, you are awesome.

佩奇，你太棒了。

Thank you so much for doing this.

非常感谢您这样做。

Two final questions.

最后两个问题。

Where can folks find you online if they want to reach out and learn more, and how can listeners be useful to you?

如果人们想联系并了解更多信息，可以在哪里找到您？听众如何对您有用？

Paige Costello: You can find me on LinkedIn and Twitter, Paige Costello, and on Twitter, @paigenow.

Paige Costello：您可以在 LinkedIn 和 Twitter 上找到我，Paige Costello，以及 Twitter @paigenow。

Listeners, well, I'd love to hear how you think AI is going to shape the future of software for knowledge workers, but in particular, if you and your team use Asana, I'd love to know where you'd like to see AI playing a bigger role to drive efficiency alignment for your team.

听众们，我很想听听您认为人工智能将如何为知识工作者塑造软件的未来，但特别是，如果您和您的团队使用 Asana，我很想知道您希望看到人工智能在哪些方面发挥更大的作用，以推动团队的效率协调。

So, as you know, we offer a ton of goal management, work management pieces that help teams and orgs do their work together, and I'd love to hear from you about where you see the opportunity.

因此，如您所知，我们提供了大量的目标管理和工作管理内容，帮助团队和组织一起完成工作，我很想听听您在哪里看到了机会。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

Paige, again, thank you so much for being here.

佩奇，再次非常感谢您来到这里。

Paige Costello: My pleasure.

佩奇·科斯特洛：我很高兴。

Thanks for having me.

谢谢你有我。

Bye, everyone.: Thank you so much for listening.

再见，大家：非常感谢您的聆听。

If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.

如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.

您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。