Picking sharp problems, increasing virality, and unique product frameworks | Oji Udezue (Typeform)
Oji Udezue: Products who try to be viral just for what I call synthetic virality that fail.
Oji Udezue：那些试图通过我所说的“合成病毒式传播”来进行病毒式传播的产品最终失败了。
Because in the end, if you're synthetically viral and people get to the product and it sucks, that's it.
因为最终，如果你的产品具有综合病毒性，人们接触到该产品后发现它很糟糕，那就这样了。
Slack wasn't even viral, there was no synthetic virality.
Slack甚至不是病毒式的，没有合成的病毒式传播。
Slack couldn't even connect to organizations for the longest time.
Slack 甚至在很长一段时间内无法连接到组织。
You could be working on the third floor, and someone using Slack on the fourth floor and you would have no clue, there's no way to share it with them.
你可能在三楼工作，而有人在四楼使用 Slack，而你对此一无所知，也无法与他们分享。
But what happens when you went to lunch?
但是当你去吃午饭时会发生什么？
People are like, "We got Slack and this is amazing." And people on the third floor are like, "Holy shit, when can we get it?" Boom, boom, boom.
人们会说，“我们有了 Slack，这太棒了。”三楼的人会说，“天哪，我们什么时候才能拿到？”繁荣，繁荣，繁荣。
This is the bedrock of virality.
这是病毒式传播的基石。
Build a great product that solves a sharp problem.
打造一款能够解决尖锐问题的出色产品。
Lenny: Welcome to Lenny's Podcast, where I interview world-class product leaders and growth experts to learn from their hard-won experiences building and growing today's most successful products.
莱尼：欢迎来到莱尼的播客，我在这里采访了世界一流的产品领导者和增长专家，学习他们来之不易的构建和发展当今最成功产品的经验。
Today my guest is Oji Udezue.
今天我的嘉宾是Oji Udezue。
Oji has helped build and grow products at Microsoft.
王子曾帮助微软开发和开发产品。
He worked on Windows, outlook, Hotmail and inner Explorer, at Atlassian where he was head of product for all their communication tools, at Calendly, where he was chief product officer, at Twitter where he was head of product for creation and conversation.
他负责 Windows、Outlook、Hotmail 和内部资源管理器方面的工作；在 Atlassian 担任所有通信工具的产品主管；在 Calendly 担任首席产品官；在 Twitter 担任创建和对话产品主管。
He's currently chief product officer at Typeform, which I am a happy customer of.
他目前是 Typeform 的首席产品官，我是该公司的忠实客户。
Oji has one of the broadest and most interesting careers in product, and he's also one of the most thoughtful humans I've met.
王子在产品领域拥有最广泛、最有趣的职业生涯之一，他也是我见过的最有思想的人之一。
In our conversation, Oji shares some of his favorite product frameworks and also why you should be really careful applying frameworks at your company.
在我们的谈话中，Oji 分享了一些他最喜欢的产品框架，以及为什么在公司应用框架时应该非常小心。
We dig into what he's learned from Calendly and Atlassian and a Typeform on how to do product led growth successfully, and also how to get really sharp with your ICP or ideal customer profile.
我们深入探讨了他从 Calendly 和 Atlassian 以及 Typeform 中学到的知识，了解如何成功实现产品主导型增长，以及如何真正掌握 ICP 或理想的客户档案。
Lenny: Also, how to increase your products virality and a concept called forest time, which I love.
莱尼：另外，如何提高产品的病毒式传播以及我喜欢的“森林时间”概念。
And even his favorite Nigerian food, which I am currently on the hunt for.
甚至还有他最喜欢的尼日利亚食物，我目前正在寻找。
With that, I bring you Oji Udezue after a short word from our sponsors.
在我们的赞助商简短发言后，我为您带来了 Oji Udezue。
Lenny: You fell in love with building products for a reason, but sometimes the day-to-day reality is a little different than you imagined.
Lenny：你爱上构建产品是有原因的，但有时日常现实与你想象的有点不同。
Instead of dreaming up big ideas, talking to customers and crafting a strategy, you're drowning in spreadsheets and roadmap updates, and you're spending your days basically putting out fires.
您没有梦想出伟大的想法，与客户交谈并制定策略，而是淹没在电子表格和路线图更新中，并且您的时间基本上都花在救火上。
A better way is possible.
更好的方法是可能的。
Introducing Jira Product Discovery, the new prioritization and road mapping tool built for product teams by Atlassian.
隆重推出 Jira Product Discovery，这是 Atlassian 为产品团队构建的全新优先级划分和路线图绘制工具。
With Jira Product Discovery, you can gather all your product ideas and insights in one place and prioritize confidently, finally replacing those endless spreadsheets.
借助 Jira Product Discovery，您可以将所有产品创意和见解收集到一处，并自信地确定优先顺序，最终取代那些无休无止的电子表格。
Lenny: Create and share custom product roadmaps with any stakeholder in seconds.
Lenny：在几秒钟内创建并与任何利益相关者共享自定义产品路线图。
And it's all built on Jira where your engineering teams already working, so true collaboration is finally possible.
这一切都建立在 Jira 上，您的工程团队已经在 Jira 上工作，因此真正的协作终于成为可能。
Great products are built by great teams, not just engineers, sales, support, leadership, even Greg from finance.
伟大的产品是由伟大的团队打造的，不仅仅是工程师、销售、支持、领导层，甚至是来自财务部门的格雷格。
Anyone that you want can contribute ideas, feedback, and insights in Jira Product Discovery for free, no catch.
您想要的任何人都可以在 Jira Product Discovery 中免费贡献想法、反馈和见解，没有任何限制。
And it's only $10 a month for you.
而且每月只需 10 美元。
Say goodbye to your spreadsheets and the never ending alignment efforts.
告别电子表格和无休止的对齐工作。
The old way of doing product management is over.
旧的产品管理方式已经结束。
Rediscover what's possible with Jira Product Discovery.
重新发现 Jira Product Discovery 的可能性。
Try for free at atlassian.com/lenny, that's atlassian.com/lenny.
请访问 atlassian.com/lenny 免费试用，即 atlassian.com/lenny。
Lenny: Oji, Thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast.
Lenny：Oji，非常感谢您来到这里，欢迎来到播客。
Oji Udezue: Thank you, Lenny.
王子乌德祖：谢谢你，莱尼。
It's a pleasure to be here.
很高兴来到这里。
Lenny: It's my pleasure.
莱尼：这是我的荣幸。
You've been a PM and a product leader in so many amazing and also just very different companies, all with very different approaches to product and growth.
您曾在许多令人惊叹且截然不同的公司担任产品经理和产品负责人，所有公司都采用截然不同的产品和增长方法。
And I think you have this very rare broad perspective on what works in product and growth across a lot of different ways of doing it.
我认为您对产品和增长的有效方式有如此罕见的广泛视角，可以通过多种不同的方式实现。
And so I have a bunch of questions for you.
我有很多问题要问你。
I hope you came ready for that.
我希望你为此做好准备。
Lenny: I love it.
莱尼：我喜欢。
Okay, so I want to start with frameworks.
好的，我想从框架开始。
You've written and shared a bunch of really interesting frameworks for how to think about product and growth, and so I just want to dig into a couple of them.
您编写并分享了一系列非常有趣的框架，用于如何思考产品和增长，因此我只想深入研究其中的几个。
And one of them is around how to find big B2B SaaS ideas and it's around finding the right workflow.
其中之一是如何找到大型 B2B SaaS 创意，以及找到正确的工作流程。
Could you just share this framework and also just how founders and also investors can use this idea to find big ideas?
您能否分享一下这个框架，以及创始人和投资者如何利用这个想法来寻找伟大的想法？
Oji Udezue: Thank you.
王子乌德泽：谢谢。
So I think you're referring to where do you fish to find a unicorn.
所以我认为你指的是在哪里钓鱼才能找到独角兽。
Oji Udezue: And the thing behind that is people can find that on Substack and the Medium, my writings.
Oji Udezue：这背后的原因是人们可以在 Substack 和 Medium 上找到我的作品。
But the premise is that there's a lot of risk in building startups, and the last decade of product management and startups has really focused on the method of building software and companies.
但前提是建立初创公司存在很多风险，而过去十年的产品管理和初创公司真正关注的是构建软件和公司的方法。
We talk about the lean approach, we talk about fail fast, and so on and so forth.
我们谈论精益方法，我们谈论快速失败，等等。
And I think that that was a necessary phase for us because a lot of innovation was just the ideas of founders unvalidated by customers, and we needed this inflection point in our discipline.
我认为这对我们来说是一个必要的阶段，因为很多创新只是创始人的想法，未经客户验证，我们的学科需要这个拐点。
People need to understand though that customer science is not the solution to everything otherwise OpenAI will never have done anything.
人们需要明白，客户科学并不能解决所有问题，否则 OpenAI 将永远不会做任何事情。
It's also innovation.
这也是一种创新。
And so the problem space and the solutions to the problems space is still a big driver of success in building software companies.
因此，问题空间和问题空间的解决方案仍然是构建软件公司成功的重要驱动力。
Oji Udezue: What problem are you really solving?
Oji Udezue：你真正要解决什么问题？
And if you believe that the problem space is key, so what problems will predict success?
如果您认为问题空间是关键，那么什么问题可以预测成功呢？
In B2B SaaS especially, which is much easier to circumscribe is where I start to think about, look, how do you tell from the beginning?
尤其是在 B2B SaaS 中，这是我开始思考的更容易限制的地方，看看，你从一开始就知道如何？
Because an investor as well as an operator.
因为既是投资者，又是经营者。
Now to segment this space, I think of two dimensions.
现在为了分割这个空间，我想到了两个维度。
One is how many departments in the company does the workflow you're trying to solve apply to?
一是您要解决的工作流程适用于公司中有多少个部门？
Is it just a few or is it all of them?
是只是少数还是全部？
And the second is how intense or how frequent is the workflow executed?
第二个问题是工作流程执行的强度或频率如何？
Is it daily?
是每天吗？
Is it weekly?
是每周一次吗？
Is it three times a week?
是一周三次吗？
And so on and so forth.
等等。
Now if you draw a nice quadrant of these two things, then you can start to have some predictive power.
现在，如果你为这两件事画了一个很好的象限，那么你就可以开始拥有一些预测能力。
Things that are useful in every department I call every one workflows, like things like collaboration, like Slack, email, calendaring, workflows, social knowledge and Notion and so on and so forth.
在每个部门中有用的东西我称之为工作流程，比如协作之类的东西，比如 Slack、电子邮件、日历、工作流程、社交知识和概念等等。
Oji Udezue: And then things that apply to single departments, I call niche and that's what I call niche.
Oji Udezue：然后，适用于单个部门的事情，我称之为利基市场，这就是我所说的利基市场。
And then the intensity is about frequency.
然后强度与频率有关。
A month is not infrequent, daily is super frequent.
一个月不稀奇，每天超级频繁。
If you divide the market or the enterprise into frequency and into how broad the workflow is, you can actually have predictive power.
如果您将市场或企业划分为频率和工作流程的范围，您实际上就可以拥有预测能力。
And what I found by looking at the biggest company is public and private in each quadrant was that every one frequent workflows intuitively are the most profitable to work on, but also the hardest to get into because they're dominated by Microsoft and Google and very, very large companies.
通过观察每个象限中最大的上市公司和私营公司，我发现每一个频繁的工作流程直观上都是最有利可图的，但也是最难进入的，因为它们由微软和谷歌以及非常非常大的公司主导。
For example, one of my friends is the CEO of Coda.
例如，我的一位朋友是 Coda 的首席执行官。
And so this is interesting, because he's in that space, for him to think about.
所以这很有趣，因为他在那个空间里，让他思考。
Oji Udezue: And then the place where B2B SaaS really thrives is niche workflows that are highly frequent.
Oji Udezue：B2B SaaS 真正蓬勃发展的地方是高度频繁的利基工作流程。
High ni is what I call it, high frequency niche.
High ni就是我所说的高频利基。
And then there are the other two quadrants that are a bit more challenging.
另外两个象限则更具挑战性。
And then you have to figure out how to navigate your way into one of the other two.
然后你必须弄清楚如何进入另外两个之一。
If you are in one of the top two quadrants, high ni and high everyone and you solve a really important problem, workflow problem, you can probably turn into a billion-dollar company.
如果你处于前两个象限之一，即高 Ni 和高所有人，并且你解决了一个非常重要的问题，即工作流程问题，那么你可能会变成一家价值十亿美元的公司。
If you do the other two, there's some challenges that you have to go through.
如果您执行其他两项，则必须克服一些挑战。
And the framework talks about how you should navigate those places into success.
该框架讨论了您应该如何引导这些地方取得成功。
And I think it's very important because if this is true, and by the way, like I said, I did some validation on it, founders can start to, before they invest years, start to think about what probability of success is.
我认为这非常重要，因为如果这是真的，顺便说一句，就像我说的，我对此做了一些验证，创始人可以在投资多年之前开始思考成功的可能性是什么。
And if you're an investor like me or VC, you can start to think about how you deploy your money.
如果你是像我或风险投资家一样的投资者，你可以开始考虑如何配置你的资金。
Lenny: What are examples of companies in each of those quadrants?
莱尼：每个象限中有哪些公司的例子？
If you can frame this and I don't know if you have this in your head already.
如果你能把这个框起来，我不知道你脑子里是否已经有了这个。
Oji Udezue: High frequency everyone workflows tend to be things that are done by the doorman to the CEO.
Oji Udezue：高频度的每个人工作流程往往是由首席执行官的门卫完成的事情。
So it's email, it's collaboration, it is writing, it is math, all the basic things.
所以它是电子邮件，它是协作，它是写作，它是数学，所有基本的东西。
At Atlassian, we spend a lot of time thinking about this.
在 Atlassian，我们花了很多时间思考这个问题。
So Word, we've had word processing forever in the workspace.
因此，Word，我们一直在工作区中进行文字处理。
Things like Notion and Confluence are huge as sort of evolution of that, Slack, email.
像 Notion 和 Confluence 这样的东西是巨大的，就像 Slack 和电子邮件的进化一样。
Companies in that space, Google, Microsoft, Atlassian, et cetera.
该领域的公司包括谷歌、微软、Atlassian 等等。
And the high ni, which is high frequency niche, you have things like Jira, you have things like tools for recruiters, you have martech, you have sales tech.
高尼，即高频利基市场，你有像 Jira 这样的东西，你有招聘人员工具之类的东西，你有营销技术，你有销售技术。
Oji Udezue: And we know the companies behind them, Atlassian, Salesforce, so on and so forth.
Oji Udezue：我们知道它们背后的公司，Atlassian、Salesforce 等等。
And then in the low frequency everyone, you have things like maybe form tools.
然后在低频中，每个人都有诸如表单工具之类的东西。
And actually, they're not that many of them, low frequency everyone or even expense.
事实上，他们的数量并不多，每个人的频率都较低，甚至费用也较低。
Actually, the best expensing.
其实，最好的支出。
Not everyone does it all the time, but everyone essentially has to do some of it, mostly, at least a lot of people.
不是每个人都一直这样做，但每个人本质上都必须做其中的一些，大多数情况下，至少很多人。
And then there's a low frequency niche, which is particular department.
然后还有一个低频利基市场，这是一个特定的部门。
So planning, which is done by FPNA, but done infrequently, things like that.
规划是由 FPNA 完成的，但很少做，诸如此类的事情。
Lenny: How frequent is frequent in your experience?
莱尼：在你的经历中，频率是多少？
Does it have to be once a week at least?
至少必须每周一次吗？
What do you think is that minimum bar?
您认为最低标准是多少？
Oji Udezue: Frequent is every day really or multiple times a week.
Oji Udezue：频繁是指每天或每周多次。
Infrequent starts to be like two times a week, once a month.
开始的频率不高，比如每周两次，每月一次。
And of course there's a big interregnum in the middle of that.
当然，这中间有一个很大的空白期。
Lenny: It's interesting that there are examples of companies that succeeded in those lower quadrants of infrequent, say the expensing use case.
Lenny：有趣的是，有一些公司在不常见的较低象限中取得了成功，例如费用用例。
Do you have a sense of what it takes to win there?
你知道如何才能在那里获胜吗？
Because I imagine most startups are in that area, and I imagine founders are like, what can we do to win still?
因为我想大多数初创公司都在这个领域，而且我想创始人会想，我们能做些什么才能仍然获胜？
Oji Udezue: Well, this isn't a static framework in the sense that companies are not destined to be one of these things.
Oji Udezue：嗯，这不是一个静态框架，因为公司注定不会成为其中之一。
The essence of strategy is to navigate from the curve of travel is essentially go from the lower to the higher.
策略的本质是从旅行的曲线中导航，本质上是从低处到更高处。
Atlassian is trying to go from high niche to high everyone with Confluence and with all the tools that they have.
Atlassian 正试图通过 Confluence 及其拥有的所有工具从高端市场走向高端市场。
People below are trying to get into the high frequency niche by focusing on their core customer.
下面的人试图通过专注于他们的核心客户来进入高频利基市场。
So what it looks like in say low frequency everyone workflows, something like that is, well, if some people are using it infrequently, but they must use it, well that's a good thing.
因此，每个人的工作流程频率较低，就像这样，如果有些人不经常使用它，但他们必须使用它，那么这是一件好事。
But then maybe you provide a module that is used by the finance department every day, and so suddenly you're moving into the high frequency everyone workflow.
但也许您提供了财务部门每天使用的模块，因此您突然进入了高频的每个人工作流程。
So it's about finding a part of the organization that considers this mission-critical and then solving their problems beyond the problems for everyone for example, in that quadrant.
因此，关键是找到组织中认为这一任务至关重要的部分，然后解决他们的问题，而不是每个人的问题，例如，在该象限中。
Lenny: Is there an example that comes to mind of either at Calendly or Typeform or Atlassian where you pushed it further up the frequency direction or the everyone direction?
Lenny：有没有想到在 Calendly、Typeform 或 Atlassian 中你将其进一步推向频率方向或每个人方向的例子？
Oji Udezue: For example, at Typeform, now this is real for me, Typeform technically is low frequency niche or low frequency everyone, depending on how easy it is to use and how it surrounds the customer.
Oji Udezue：例如，在 Typeform，现在这对我来说是真实的，Typeform 从技术上讲是低频利基或低频每个人，取决于它的易用性以及它如何围绕客户。
And one of the things that I'm trying to do as part of product strategy is to move it into high frequency niche, high ni, which is a very productive place to be.
作为产品战略的一部分，我正在尝试做的事情之一就是将其转移到高频利基市场，高镍市场，这是一个非常富有成效的地方。
So for marketers, for salespeople, I want to make sure that they think of us first.
因此，对于营销人员、销售人员来说，我想确保他们首先想到我们。
And because we are particularly good at customer facing interactions, if they think that we are the way to win new business and to make money, then a portion of our audience, not every single one of them will consider us high ni.
而且因为我们特别擅长面向客户的互动，如果他们认为我们是赢得新业务和赚钱的方式，那么我们的一部分受众，而不是每个人，都会认为我们是高尼。
And I think expanding that foothold is the way to navigate a business like that.
我认为扩大这一立足点是驾驭此类业务的方法。
You can see that with Qualtrics, you can see that with SurveyMonkey.
您可以通过 Qualtrics 看到这一点，也可以通过 SurveyMonkey 看到这一点。
Lots of companies are thinking about how to further unbundle that market for a very, very specific kind of customer.
许多公司正在考虑如何针对非常非常特定的客户类型进一步拆分该市场。
And that is what they're trying to do.
这就是他们正在努力做的事情。
They're trying to hit the high ni, even for that more generic workflow.
他们试图达到最高标准，即使对于更通用的工作流程也是如此。
Lenny: That's an awesome example.
莱尼：这是一个很棒的例子。
You also have this framework that I think you call the zone of benefit, which is around how much better does your solution have to be than the status quo?
你还有一个我认为你称之为利益区的框架，它是指你的解决方案必须比现状好多少？
A lot of people are like, "Hey, look at this product, it's better than what you have now." And usually people are like, "Ah, whatever.
很多人会说，“嘿，看看这个产品，它比你现在拥有的更好。”通常人们会说，“啊，不管怎样。
It's good enough." And you've had some insights on just how much better it needs to be for people to care.
已经足够好了。”您已经对人们需要如何更好地提供护理有了一些见解。
Can you share that?
你能分享一下吗？
Oji Udezue: Honestly, the reason I like being a product manager is on any given day, I'm drawing from anthropology, sociology, behavioral economics, leadership, communication skills.
Oji Udezue：老实说，我喜欢成为一名产品经理的原因是在任何一天，我都会从人类学、社会学、行为经济学、领导力、沟通技巧中汲取知识。
I'm trained, I have a master's in engineering, so I'm an engineer as well.
我接受过培训，拥有工程学硕士学位，所以我也是一名工程师。
I've done marketing and sales, so really pulling from so many things.
我做过营销和销售，所以确实从很多事情中获益。
And the reason I talk about the zone of benefit is ultimately what we're trying to do is impedance match technology to humans.
我之所以谈论受益区，最终是因为我们想要做的是人类的阻抗匹配技术。
That's it.
就是这样。
If you really think about it, that's one essence of what we're trying to do.
如果你认真思考一下，就会发现这就是我们正在努力做的事情的本质之一。
So the zone of benefit works as a framework because people will not pay for things that don't either really shrink the workflow that they're doing or doesn't give them superpower.
因此，利益区作为一个框架发挥作用，因为人们不会为那些既不会真正缩小他们正在做的工作流程，也不会赋予他们超能力的事情付费。
So the same amount of time, but twice as much output.
因此，同样的时间，但产出却是两倍。
But the most important thing is that it has to be noticeable.
但最重要的是它必须引人注目。
Oji Udezue: If you do something 20% better, often people just around you, just as a human, people don't notice.
Oji Udezue：如果你把某件事做得好 20%，通常你周围的人，就像一个人一样，人们不会注意到。
And so for a product to make a difference, it has to be at least two, three more X for people to say, "You know what?
因此，一款产品要想有所作为，就必须至少有两个、三个以上的 X，这样人们才会说：“你知道吗？
This is offering enough value for me to maybe make a switch in cost," and so on and so forth.
这为我提供了足够的价值，也许可以改变成本，”等等。
And it really comes down to look, economic theory tells us that people work for leisure, they work enough to afford their leisure.
归根结底，经济理论告诉我们，人们为了休闲而工作，他们的工作足以支付休闲费用。
It's sort of broad, and I know some people don't necessarily do that.
这有点宽泛，我知道有些人不一定这样做。
Especially in the tech industry, people just love to work.
尤其是在科技行业，人们就是热爱工作。
But that is really it, when you think about eight billion people on the planet.
但当你想到地球上的 80 亿人口时，情况确实如此。
And there's a lot of benefit really hones in on the fact that if you're going to help me work less, make about the same amount of money, then for me to notice you, you have to accelerate me by three times for me to care.
事实上，有很多好处，如果你要帮助我减少工作量，赚同样多的钱，那么为了让我注意到你，你必须将我的速度提高三倍才能让我关心。
Lenny: Okay, awesome.
莱尼：好的，太棒了。
So three times.
如此三次。
So the idea there is you should feel like this is three times more productive in the thing that I'm trying to do or saves me three times, I don't know, I do it three times faster.
所以你应该觉得这在我想做的事情上效率提高了三倍，或者拯救了我三倍，我不知道，我做事的速度是原来的三倍。
Oji Udezue: Yeah, that's when people actually feel it and they feel it enough where they part with money.
Oji Udezue：是的，那是人们真正感受到的时候，他们在花钱的时候就已经感觉到了。
Lenny: Awesome.
莱尼：太棒了。
And I think what's cool about this is it helps you identify the ICP for your product if you're working a startup or even a new product within an existing product to figure out who exactly is going to most benefit from this.
我认为这很酷的一点是，如果您正在一家初创公司工作，甚至在现有产品中开发新产品，它可以帮助您识别产品的 ICP，以确定谁将从中受益最大。
Is that part of this?
这是其中的一部分吗？
Oji Udezue: Yes, yes.
王子乌德泽：是的，是的。
Your best customers aren't price sensitive for what you're shooting for because they get it.
您最好的客户对您所追求的产品的价格并不敏感，因为他们明白。
They fundamentally understand it.
他们从根本上理解这一点。
So yes, when you're shooting for ICPs, now every startup has marketing problems getting an audience problem.
所以，是的，当你拍摄 ICP 时，现在每个初创公司都会遇到营销问题和吸引受众的问题。
But once you start getting a decent audience, over 100 people or more, you should start to notice the people who are like, "You know what?
但一旦你开始获得像样的观众，超过 100 人或更多，你应该开始注意到那些会说“你知道吗？
This, I really care about this." And that starts to tell you a little bit about who's your target audience.
这个，我真的很关心这个。”这开始告诉你一些关于谁是你的目标受众的信息。
Lenny: Would you be up for sharing the ICP of some of the companies you worked at?
Lenny：您愿意分享一下您工作过的一些公司的ICP吗？
Just to give people a sense of what would be a good ICP.
只是为了让人们了解什么是好的 ICP。
Oji Udezue: I think for Atlassian, it's really kind of obvious.
Oji Udezue：我认为对于 Atlassian 来说，这确实是显而易见的。
It's developers mostly.
主要是开发商。
But it's tech teams writ large because the fundamental of an R and D team is building stuff.
但技术团队的重要性显而易见，因为研发团队的基础是构建产品。
And Jira helps the engineers who actually build stuff to track what they do and to give visibility to it so that they can be valuable to the organization.
Jira 帮助实际构建产品的工程师跟踪他们所做的事情并提供可见性，以便他们对组织有价值。
So that is incontroversial.
所以这是没有争议的。
So the ICP is really clear and have been clear for Atlassian for a very long time.
因此，ICP 非常明确，并且对于 Atlassian 来说已经很明确了很长一段时间。
Calendly is this weird company where people don't see all the value.
Calendly 是一家奇怪的公司，人们看不到它的全部价值。
People think it's just casual scheduling.
人们认为这只是随意的安排。
But really the people who care about scheduling the most, and I don't mean calendaring.
但实际上是最关心日程安排的人，我指的不是日历。
Calendaring is very different from scheduling.
日历与日程安排有很大不同。
Oji Udezue: The people who care about scheduling the most are salespeople because it's the lifeblood of them earning money and marketers, because it's the lifeblood of them maybe learning about their customer.
Oji Udezue：最关心日程安排的人是销售人员，因为这是他们赚钱的命脉；而营销人员，因为这可能是他们了解客户的命脉。
Recruiters, because it's the lifeblood of them attracting and scheduling the people that they need to do their job.
招聘人员，因为这是他们吸引和安排工作所需人员的命脉。
So Calendly's ICPs were people who were scheduling with people who were not in the organization for some business reason.
因此，Calendly 的 ICP 是与因某些业务原因不在组织中的人员进行安排的人员。
Typeform is marketers mostly because Typeform exists to make the web talkative, to make it more human.
Typeform 之所以成为营销人员，主要是因为 Typeform 的存在是为了让网络变得健谈、变得更加人性化。
And with Typeform, you can brand that conversation and actually make it conversational because one question at a time, the beautiful design.
借助 Typeform，您可以为该对话打上品牌烙印，并使其实际上成为对话，因为一次一个问题，一个美丽的设计。
And so marketers feel like we help their websites talk to each other.
因此，营销人员觉得我们可以帮助他们的网站相互交流。
Product people think we help their web apps talk to people they care about, UX people feel the same way.
产品人员认为我们帮助他们的网络应用程序与他们关心的人交谈，用户体验人员也有同样的感觉。
So those are some, I think the interesting thing is Twitter.
这些就是一些，我认为有趣的是Twitter。
Lenny: I was going to ask what the ICP for Twitter might be, still.
Lenny：我还是想问 Twitter 的 ICP 是什么。
Oji Udezue: So Twitter is actually more fun in terms of ICP because first of all, I'll talk about the things that's not obvious about Twitter.
Oji Udezue：所以 Twitter 实际上在 ICP 方面更有趣，因为首先，我将讨论 Twitter 上不明显的事情。
30% of Twitter's customer base were unseen, they were media organizations, people like the NFL, the NBA, HBO, who wanted their content to reach more people, to be in conversational spaces.
Twitter 30% 的客户群是看不见的，他们是媒体组织，像 NFL、NBA、HBO 这样的人，他们希望自己的内容能够接触到更多的人，进入对话空间。
And they were essentially business customers and not seen in the conversation pool, it's not obvious.
而且他们本质上是商业客户，在对话池中看不到，这一点并不明显。
But we interacted with them all the time and we rev shared ads for their videos, because we're making content all the time.
但我们一直与他们互动，并为他们的视频播放共享广告，因为我们一直在制作内容。
And so Twitter was a way to extend the monetization of that content, that inventory that already had.
因此，Twitter 是一种扩大内容货币化的方式，即现有库存。
But when you go to the consumer side of Twitter, who was the ICP?
但当你转到 Twitter 的消费者端时，谁是 ICP？
Oji Udezue: Well, actually Twitter understood, and this is sort of reflected in what Elon Musk is doing these days, that he doesn't seem to understand.
Oji Udezue：嗯，实际上 Twitter 理解，这在埃隆·马斯克最近所做的事情中得到了体现，他似乎并不理解。
And if you ask anyone who was at Twitter, you'll see the understanding in their eyes and the fact that he doesn't understand, because Twitter's ICP is bifurcated.
如果你问 Twitter 的任何人，你会看到他们眼中的理解以及他不理解的事实，因为 Twitter 的 ICP 是分叉的。
On one side, it is the most accomplished people in the world, the people who have something to say.
一方面，这是世界上最有成就的人，有话要说的人。
This is why there's neuro Twitter, there's weather Twitter, there is cancer Twitter, and so on and so forth.
这就是为什么有神经 Twitter、天气 Twitter、癌症 Twitter 等等。
In fact, if something breaks, some new innovation happens in the world, it probably breaks on Twitter before it breaks anywhere else, because these are people in informal communities following each other and sharing their results.
事实上，如果世界上发生了一些事情，一些新的创新，它可能会先在 Twitter 上出现，然后再在其他地方出现，因为这些人在非正式社区中互相关注并分享他们的成果。
Oji Udezue: So basically there's this big circle of experts.
Oji Udezue：所以基本上有一个大的专家圈子。
We break down into celebrities, we break down into luminaries, leaders and so on and so forth.
我们分为名人、名人、领袖等等。
That's the ICP.
这就是ICP。
Now how does Twitter work?
那么 Twitter 是如何运作的呢？
These people attract the other 90% who listen to these people, but also they need to create their own informal communities around the things they're passionate about and have this mimetic relationship with the luminaries and the experts.
这些人吸引了其他 90% 倾听这些人意见的人，但他们也需要围绕他们热衷的事物创建自己的非正式社区，并与名人和专家建立这种模仿关系。
And that is sort of the planet Twitter, experts on one side, humans who need to connect with the things they're passionate about, the people who are like them, that is the ICP of Twitter, the people who have something to say in those two categories.
这就是 Twitter 的星球，一方面是专家，需要与他们所热衷的事物、与他们相似的人联系的人类，这就是 Twitter 的 ICP，在这两类中有话要说的人。
Lenny: Are you happy you're not working on Twitter anymore?
Lenny：你不再在 Twitter 上工作，你感到高兴吗？
Oji Udezue: I am ecstatic, I'm ecstatic.
Oji Udezue：我欣喜若狂，我欣喜若狂。
It seems like such a shitshow, no shade on anything or anyone purposely.
这看起来就像一场狗屎秀，没有刻意地对任何事物或任何人施加阴影。
But look, what's happening is evident.
但看，发生的事情是显而易见的。
So I don't think I have much to say about that.
所以我认为对此我没什么可说的。
Lenny: Yeah, what a wild ride over there.
莱尼：是啊，那儿真是太疯狂了。
Zooming out on the frameworks question, when I asked you ahead of our chat about what frameworks you love and anything you think would be interesting to share, you had a really interesting response and so I'd love for you to just share your perspective on frameworks broadly.
缩小框架问题，当我在聊天之前问您您喜欢什么框架以及您认为有兴趣分享的内容时，您的回答非常有趣，所以我希望您广泛分享您对框架的看法。
Oji Udezue: Yeah.
王子乌德泽：是的。
Look, I'm two things simultaneously.
看，我同时是两件事。
One is actually, I like frameworks.
一是实际上，我喜欢框架。
The way that I try to express them is mental models because the essence of a framework and a mental model is that it is a shortcut.
我试图表达它们的方式是心智模型，因为框架和心智模型的本质是它是一条捷径。
It packages some dense thinking into a way for you to approach a problem or to approach an opinion and so on and so forth.
它将一些密集的思考打包成一种方法，供你处理问题或处理意见等等。
So I do collect them.
所以我确实收集它们。
But I think that what's important, I feel in product management, is to have the ability to understand the fundamentals or the empirical relationship that constructs a framework in the first place.
但我认为，我认为在产品管理中，重要的是首先有能力理解构建框架的基本原理或经验关系。
In math, you would call it being able to derive the equation.
在数学中，你可以称之为能够推导出方程。
And the reason that's important is because there's so much uncertainty in what we do.
这很重要，因为我们所做的事情存在太多不确定性。
Product management isn't a science.
产品管理不是一门科学。
In fact, programming isn't even a science really, because if it was, we'd treat it differently.
事实上，编程甚至不是一门真正的科学，因为如果它是一门科学，我们就会以不同的方式对待它。
So the art of building, say a software company that is profitable is not scientific.
因此，建设一家盈利的软件公司的艺术并不科学。
Oji Udezue: There's a lot of uncertainty, a lot of unknowns, there's timing issues.
Oji Udezue：有很多不确定性、很多未知数，还有时间安排问题。
So I guess while I love mental models, while I love frameworks, what I want people who listen to me and maybe listen to you to understand is you have to go deeper.
所以我想，虽然我喜欢心智模型，虽然我喜欢框架，但我希望那些听我的，也许听你的人明白的是，你必须更深入。
Because as situations change, as an investor and advisor to startups, I advise differently if you are just starting, if you're in the middle, and if you're scaling.
因为随着情况的变化，作为初创公司的投资者和顾问，如果你刚刚起步，如果你处于中间阶段，如果你正在扩大规模，我会给出不同的建议。
In the book that I'm writing on product, I actually make that distinction a lot in the book, which stage are you?
在我正在写的关于产品的书中，我实际上在书中做了很多区分，你处于哪个阶段？
Because then the thing that applies to you is different.
因为这样适用于你的东西就不同了。
If you understand the fundamentals, you'll be able to use frameworks in a much more productive way because you'll adapt it to your stage, you'll adapt it to the problem.
如果您了解基础知识，您将能够以更高效的方式使用框架，因为您将使其适应您的阶段，您将使其适应问题。
And I think that's really important.
我认为这非常重要。
I see lots of people using frameworks very blindly, and I think that's harmful to them and harmful to their businesses.
我看到很多人非常盲目地使用框架，我认为这对他们有害，对他们的业务有害。
Lenny: What a great segue to where I wanted to take us next, which is around the book that you're writing, which is my understanding is it's product management for product led growth.
莱尼：接下来我想带我们去的地方真是太棒了，那就是你正在写的书，我的理解是，它是产品管理以产品为主导的增长。
And I'm on your wait list to find out when it's out, and I saw that the other day you asked people for their advice on what to call the book.
我在你的等待名单上，想知道这本书什么时候出版，我看到前几天你向人们询问如何称呼这本书的建议。
Do you have any favorites at this point of what you might title it?
现在你有最喜欢的标题吗？
Oji Udezue: Well first of all, there are two things happening with the book.
Oji Udezue：首先，这本书发生了两件事。
One is I believe PLG is, I have maybe a different definition of PLG, but I think the way that we are basically adapting products to the consumer or to the business professional and using the product itself to sell the value proposition is really key to transitioning from what we used to do 20 years ago to today.
一是我相信 PLG 是，我可能对 PLG 有不同的定义，但我认为我们基本上使产品适应消费者或商业专业人士并利用产品本身来销售价值主张的方式对于我们从 20 年前所做的事情过渡到今天来说确实是关键。
Basically, I think even enterprise companies will tend towards a consumer type product management over the next decade than the other way around, that's my bet.
基本上，我认为即使是企业公司在未来十年也会倾向于消费者型产品管理，而不是相反，这是我的赌注。
And so let's call that PLG, just writ large.
因此，我们将其称为 PLG，简单地说。
And also I think product management is set for growth.
而且我认为产品管理将会增长。
So obviously that's good for you, Lenny, because everyone needs to know how to do this.
显然这对你有好处，莱尼，因为每个人都需要知道如何做到这一点。
Oji Udezue: It's an integrative art within building software and software is seeding the world, the book, I want to get very practical.
Oji Udezue：这是构建软件的综合艺术，软件正在向世界播种，我希望这本书非常实用。
What matters about doing those two things well, and the best titles coming up are, my original title was Building Rocket Ships.
做好这两件事最重要的是，即将到来的最好的标题是，我最初的标题是建造火箭飞船。
So it's like how do you think through all the different things you need to build a really successful software company?
这就像你如何思考建立一家真正成功的软件公司所需的所有不同的事情？
Think about the practice, think about the business, meld those two things together.
考虑实践，考虑业务，将这两件事融合在一起。
So a lot of people love that title.
所以很多人都喜欢这个称号。
Well, there's a huge variation in submissions.
嗯，提交的内容存在巨大差异。
So I think we're going to do that one more time and offer more options before we nail down the title of the book, so still TBD.
因此，我认为在确定书名之前，我们将再做一次并提供更多选择，所以仍待确定。
Lenny: Cool, all right.
莱尼：酷，好吧。
I'm excited to see where you land.
我很高兴看到你降落在哪里。
So let's just spend some time on PLG.
所以让我们花一些时间来讨论 PLG。
I feel like this is your bread and butter as a product leader.
我觉得这是你作为产品领导者的面包和黄油。
You've worked at some of the most successful PLG companies and I think you have some of the most unique perspectives on what works and doesn't work.
您曾在一些最成功的 PLG 公司工作过，我认为您对什么有效、什么无效有一些最独特的观点。
And I saw you shared a preview of what you're going to be sharing the book, and so there's a few things there that I thought were really interesting that I haven't seen other places when it comes to PLG.
我看到您分享了您将要分享这本书的内容的预览，所以其中有一些我认为非常有趣的内容，而在涉及 PLG 时我还没有在其他地方看到过。
So I was just going to dig into it-
所以我只是想深入研究一下-
Lenny: Absolutely.
莱尼：当然。
The first is this framing that you had for where to start and how to focus with your PLG problem.
第一个是您从哪里开始以及如何关注 PLG 问题的框架。
And you described it as starting with a sharp problem.
你将其描述为从一个尖锐的问题开始。
Can you talk about what that means?
你能谈谈这意味着什么吗？
Oji Udezue: Yeah, so I'm trying to connect dots.
Oji Udezue：是的，所以我正在尝试将各个点联系起来。
The sharp problem is a little bit of that whole quadrant framework, which is what problem are you going to work on?
尖锐的问题是整个象限框架的一小部分，这就是你要解决的问题？
I think that problems have predictive power of success if you actually solve the problem.
我认为，如果你真正解决了问题，问题就具有成功的预测能力。
And this is different from, I have an idea, yeah.
这不同于，我有一个想法，是的。
I think that a lot of innovation can come from inspiration, but the best inspiration comes from understanding customers and their problems.
我认为很多创新都可以来自灵感，但最好的灵感来自于了解客户及其问题。
So my advice to founders is pick a problem that is materially felt by your customers, pain points that steal their time, their energy, their money, their focus, the inability to afford their leisure.
因此，我对创始人的建议是选择一个客户切实感受到的问题，即窃取他们时间、精力、金钱、注意力、无力承担休闲时间的痛点。
If you can solve those kinds of problems, and look, I know that it's broad, because it requires insight.
如果你能解决这类问题，我知道它很广泛，因为它需要洞察力。
The best founders often are people who felt a problem, understand it, understand that it's really difficult, and understand that there may be like five, 10, 20 billion people who feel it and they don't want to solve that problem versus I feel a problem, but only 100,000 people care.
最好的创始人往往是那些感受到问题、理解问题、理解这真的很困难的人，并且明白可能有 5、10、200 亿人感受到了这个问题，但他们不想解决这个问题，而我感觉到了问题，但只有 100,000 人关心。
In which case, maybe it's not that intense anyway, unless you can charge them thousands and thousands of dollars.
在这种情况下，也许它并没有那么激烈，除非你可以向他们收取数千美元。
Oji Udezue: So pick those kinds of problems.
Oji Udezue：所以选择这些类型的问题。
If you have the narrative in your head that if you really solve this, people will pony up.
如果你脑子里有这样的说法：如果你真的解决了这个问题，人们就会掏钱。
That's what I ask people to find.
这就是我要求人们找到的。
Too many of us just have a sharp idea.
我们太多人只是有一个敏锐的想法。
Look, I've built a startup on a non-sharp problem, and I knew how it felt.
看，我已经在一个不尖锐的问题上建立了一家初创公司，我知道那是什么感觉。
Well, I also know working in companies that are solving sharp problems how it feels, it's a huge tailwind to do that.
嗯，我也知道在那些正在解决尖锐问题的公司工作的感觉，这是一个巨大的推动力。
In fact, when you work on sharp problems, it's hard to fail because you can make mistakes and the customer's obsession will carry you, but if you work on something that doesn't have a sharp problem, mistakes can kill you because essentially you're having to pay a lot for marketing, you're having to pay a lot for word of mouth.
事实上，当你处理尖锐问题时，很难失败，因为你可能会犯错误，而客户的痴迷会带你走，但如果你处理没有尖锐问题的事情，错误可能会杀了你，因为本质上你必须为营销付出很多代价，你必须为口碑付出很多代价。
People, when they get poor, they don't care about it, like recessions.
人们，当他们变得贫穷时，他们不会关心它，就像经济衰退一样。
Lenny: Coming back to something you mentioned earlier about just how much pain it needs to be for people to care or how much pain it needs to solve versus the status quo, I think is a really important element of this.
莱尼：回到你之前提到的关于人们需要照顾多少痛苦，或者与现状相比需要解决多少痛苦，我认为这是一个非常重要的因素。
I think most founders like, no, I need to solve a problem.
我认为大多数创始人都喜欢，不，我需要解决问题。
But usually it's not painful enough or it's not solving it enough, given either an example of something that you've tried or you've seen of just like that was a sharpish problem but not sharp enough and people didn't care, either a company worked or a startup you advised of just like, okay, it wasn't sharp enough.
但通常情况下，这还不够痛苦，或者解决得不够充分，给出一个你已经尝试过的例子，或者你见过的一个尖锐问题，但不够尖锐，人们不在乎，要么是一家公司工作了，要么是你建议的一家初创公司，就像，好吧，它不够尖锐。
Oji Udezue: I don't want to create enemies because I know a lot of founders.
Oji Udezue：我不想树敌，因为我认识很多创始人。
But here's one, here's one.
但这里有一个，这里有一个。
I don't know if you remember during the pandemic, this venture studio by I think one of the ex founders of Evernote created mmhmm camera, remember that?
我不知道你是否还记得在大流行期间，我认为 Evernote 的一位前创始人创建了这个风险工作室，嗯嗯相机，还记得吗？
Lenny: Oh yeah, absolutely.
莱尼：哦，是的，绝对是。
Yeah, great video.
是的，很棒的视频。
Oji Udezue: It was fun, but I don't think it was a sharp problem.
Oji Udezue：这很有趣，但我不认为这是一个尖锐的问题。
It was fun, but yeah, it didn't change the world of your Zoom camera.
这很有趣，但是，是的，它并没有改变变焦相机的世界。
It didn't change the world of your collaboration.
它并没有改变你们的合作世界。
And so I think that's one example of a non-sharp problem, for example, for most people.
因此，我认为对于大多数人来说，这是一个不尖锐问题的例子。
Lenny: What are signs that it's sharp enough, just like in your experience?
莱尼：有什么迹象表明它足够锋利，就像你的经历一样？
I know you talked about it steals your time, energy, money focused.
我知道你说过它会窃取你的时间、精力和金钱。
What are flags that this is sharp enough in your experience?
根据您的经验，哪些标志是足够清晰的？
Oji Udezue: I think there are two ways to think about it.
Oji Udezue：我认为有两种思考方式。
If you are in the trenches as a founder, the easiest way to map out a sharp problem is draw the current approximate average workflow for your target customer, at least what you think is a target, and then draw the workflow after they've used your software and see how much shorter it is, yes or no. And then try to measure those lines.
如果你是一名创始人，找出尖锐问题的最简单方法是为你的目标客户（至少是你认为的目标）绘制当前的大致平均工作流程，然后在他们使用你的软件后绘制工作流程，看看它短了多少，是或否。然后尝试测量这些线。
If you draw them as horizontal lines, try to measure those lines and see if it's much shorter.
如果你把它们画成水平线，试着测量这些线，看看它是否短得多。
If it's 2X shorter, 3X shorter, so let's say pre-customer, that is the best way to hone in on it.
如果短 2 倍、短 3 倍，那么对于预客户来说，这是磨练它的最佳方式。
Post customer, you should talk to the people who are most enthusiastic and derive their workflow and their workflow change and try to measure that.
发布客户后，您应该与最热情的人交谈，了解他们的工作流程和工作流程变化，并尝试对其进行衡量。
I think that's how you figure out if it's a sharp problem or not.
我认为这就是你如何判断这是否是一个尖锐问题的方法。
Oji Udezue: The other thing that we talk about in startup super early stage world is, I call it the whites of their eyes.
Oji Udezue：我们在初创公司超早期阶段谈论的另一件事是，我称之为他们的眼白。
When you take a problem and you share it with someone who it's going to affect their workflow, and I use the word workflow a ton because I don't use specs anymore or use cases, I think workflows are the unit of productivity.
当您遇到问题并与将影响其工作流程的人分享时，我大量使用“工作流程”一词，因为我不再使用规范或用例，我认为工作流程是生产力的单位。
When you see people's eyes get big and they expose more whites to you, you're probably onto something.
当你看到人们的眼睛变大并且他们向你暴露更多的眼白时，你可能发现了什么。
It's not enough, that's not a workflow thing, that's an excitement thing.
这还不够，这不是工作流程的问题，而是令人兴奋的事情。
But people often react that way when you're solving a really sharp problem for them.
但当你为他们解决一个非常尖锐的问题时，人们常常会做出这样的反应。
And then people spontaneously bring up money, it's like when can I pay?
然后大家就自发地提出要钱，比如我什么时候可以付钱？
When can I...
我什么时候才能...
Those kinds of things give you an indication.
这些事情会给你一个指示。
Lenny: Two other versions of the showing more whites of your eyes, which I love.
莱尼：另外两个版本展示了更多的眼白，我很喜欢。
Two other versions of that I've heard is one is you see their pupils dilate and they're just like, "Whoa, I need this now." And then the other is someone described it as, you see this nod of as you're talking, they're just like, "Oh, I get it.
我听到的另外两个版本是，一个是你看到他们的瞳孔放大，他们就像，“哇，我现在需要这个。”然后另一个人将其描述为，你在说话时看到这种点头，他们就像，“哦，我明白了。
I get this." And then they're like, "Okay, we need this in our company."
我明白了。”然后他们会说，“好吧，我们公司需要这个。”
Oji Udezue: I'm a little over those ones because sometimes it's just excitement and just noise.
Oji Udezue：我有点受不了这些，因为有时只是兴奋和噪音。
And so the things I said previously about workflow compression or capability inflation, I think those are more reliable, which is all about customer research and customer conversations.
因此，我之前所说的关于工作流程压缩或能力膨胀的事情，我认为这些更可靠，这都是关于客户研究和客户对话的。
That's what I would focus on.
这就是我要关注的重点。
Yeah, I'm saying all this from mistakes I've made, basically.
是的，我基本上是根据我所犯的错误说这一切的。
So I feel like this is scar tissue, which is what I'm trying to pour into the book.
所以我觉得这是疤痕组织，这就是我试图在书中倾注的内容。
Lenny: Speaking of talking to customers, another one of your big bullet points in the book is around continuous customer discovery, and I'm curious what you found to be successful in actually doing that.
莱尼：说到与客户交谈，您在书中的另一个重要要点是围绕持续的客户发现，我很好奇您发现在实际做到这一点方面取得了哪些成功。
A lot of people talk about it when you keep talking to customers, get feedback constantly.
当你不断与客户交谈并不断获得反馈时，很多人都会谈论它。
What actually works in your experience?
根据您的经验，什么真正有效？
Oji Udezue: Yeah, I feel like all of park management is about discovery these days.
Oji Udezue：是的，我觉得现在所有的公园管理都是关于发现。
Everyone talks about it, and I want to make a distinction.
大家都在议论，我想区分一下。
I think discovery is when you use customer conversations to understand a very specific thing that you want to optimize further workflow that you want to optimize further.
我认为发现是指当您使用客户对话来了解您想要进一步优化的非常具体的事情时，您想要进一步优化的工作流程。
And then you call the people who are most likely to be affected and you do use various research strategies to talk to them.
然后你给最有可能受到影响的人打电话，并使用各种研究策略与他们交谈。
There's a version of that also that is what I call continuous conversations, which is a Calendly and a Typeform, which we'll do more and more of.
还有一个版本，我称之为连续对话，它是 Calendly 和 Typeform，我们会越来越多地使用它。
You should organize it so that your PMs, your designers, your engineering managers and your PMMs are constantly talking to customers by default.
您应该对其进行组织，以便您的 PM、设计师、工程经理和 PMM 在默认情况下不断与客户交谈。
Meaning that customer conversations show up on their calendar every week automagically, without them getting involved.
这意味着客户对话每周都会自动显示在他们的日历上，而无需他们参与。
And then they're trained on how to have the conversation, because the death of customer discovery is friction.
然后他们接受如何进行对话的培训，因为客户发现的死亡就是摩擦。
If you ask individuals to do customer discovery, they will not do customer discovery.
如果你要求个人进行客户发现，他们不会进行客户发现。
Oji Udezue: This is the thing that dies in an innovative company because it's very difficult to actually talk to the right customer, not talk to any customer, talk list of the right customer continuously.
Oji Udezue：这就是创新型公司消亡的原因，因为很难真正与正确的客户交谈，而不是与任何客户交谈，而是不断地谈论正确的客户列表。
But there's a third thing that I like to talk about, which is customer listening.
但我喜欢谈论的第三件事是客户倾听。
In fact, I'm going to talk about this at industry in October, the PM Conference.
事实上，我将在 10 月份的行业 PM 会议上讨论这个问题。
Customer listening is different.
客户的聆听是不同的。
It's not really discovery.
这并不是真正的发现。
It is the scarfing up of customer signals that are happening constantly anyway.
无论如何，客户信号的消失一直在发生。
So people are talking on social, people are talking on app stores and G2 crowd.
所以人们在社交上谈论，人们在应用商店和 G2 人群上谈论。
If you have a instrumented churn survey, people are talking.
如果你有一个仪器化的客户流失调查，人们就会在谈论。
If you have NPS, people are not only giving you the scores where they're putting in the verbatims.
如果你有 NPS，人们不仅会给你逐字打分的分数。
If you have a bug report, which we had at Atlassian, people are filing bugs, developers love to file bugs, so of course we have that for that audience.
如果您有一份错误报告，就像我们在 Atlassian 上看到的那样，人们会提交错误，开发人员喜欢提交错误，所以我们当然会为这些受众提供该报告。
And then if you go to Zendesk and customer support, people are either talking about one thing all the time or a range of things, and you can see the frequency distribution.
然后，如果你去 Zendesk 和客户支持，人们要么一直在谈论一件事，要么谈论一系列事情，你可以看到频率分布。
Oji Udezue: And of course in Salesforce, you have closed one.
Oji Udezue：当然，在 Salesforce 中，您已经关闭了一个。
These are all things happening no matter what you do.
无论你做什么，这些都会发生。
Whether you're listening or not, you're getting these signals.
无论您是否在听，您都会收到这些信号。
One of the big, hairy, audacious goals of product management is being able to process these signals efficiently.
产品管理的宏伟、艰巨、大胆的目标之一是能够有效地处理这些信号。
We did it in a certain way at Calendly, which I drew a rig together through workflows and Slack, and then having individuals triage those things.
我们在 Calendly 以某种方式做到了这一点，我通过工作流程和 Slack 绘制了一个装备，然后让个人对这些东西进行分类。
And if you can do that hard and at industry, I'll talk a little bit about how to do it.
如果你能在工业界努力做到这一点，我会谈谈如何做到这一点。
It's not exactly discovery.
这不完全是发现。
It is what matters.
这才是最重要的。
Our job is to meld customer delight with business ambition.
我们的工作是将客户满意度与商业抱负融为一体。
And it feels essential beyond discovery that you are listening and you're understanding what matters from a customer delight perspective.
除了发现之外，您正在倾听并从客户满意度的角度理解什么是重要的，这感觉很重要。
And I don't think many of us do this really well.
我认为我们中的很多人都做得不好。
I've tried to do it everywhere I've gone, Twitter, Atlassian, Calendly, now at Typeform.
我已经尝试在所有我去过的地方做到这一点，Twitter、Atlassian、Calendly，现在是 Typeform。
But it still feels like something that the industry can get better at.
但感觉这个行业仍然可以做得更好。
Lenny: This touches on advice that Teresa Torres teaches around continuous customer discovery.
Lenny：这涉及到 Teresa Torres 围绕持续客户发现提出的建议。
And she actually had a really good tactic, that I'll share here that stuck with me, about how to actually do this.
她实际上有一个非常好的策略，我将在这里分享我一直坚持的策略，关于如何实际做到这一点。
So the way she recommends companies do this is have a little popup on your site asking visitors like we'd love to talk to you and get your feedback on our product.
因此，她建议公司这样做的方式是在您的网站上弹出一个小窗口，询问访问者我们很乐意与您交谈并获取您对我们产品的反馈。
And it just links them to a Calendly to book a meeting, and that's how it shows up on the calendar.
它只是将他们链接到 Calendly 来预订会议，这就是会议在日历上显示的方式。
Oji Udezue: Yeah, that's what we did at Calendly.
Oji Udezue：是的，我们在 Calendly 就是这么做的。
But I will say, so a couple of caveats, we did that in the community.
但我要说的是，有一些警告，我们是在社区中做到的。
We had community at calendly.com and we understood that that was a self-selected group.
我们在 calendly.com 上有社区，我们知道这是一个自我选择的小组。
But it was still important to talk to them because they were still representative.
但与他们交谈仍然很重要，因为他们仍然具有代表性。
And of course you should do it in a product.
当然，你应该在产品中做到这一点。
The challenge of that approach is always is it the right customer?
这种方法的挑战始终是它是合适的客户吗？
And the pro/con of that is talking to one customer is useless, talking to 100 is super useful.
其优点/缺点是与一位客户交谈毫无用处，与 100 名客户交谈却非常有用。
And so the challenge is are you targeting the right person?
因此，挑战在于您是否瞄准了正确的人选？
Oji Udezue: So some intelligence upfront and who to show it to and why you're showing it to them, so that they can come is interesting.
Oji Udezue：因此，一些预先的情报以及向谁展示以及为什么向他们展示这些情报以便他们能够来是很有趣的。
Very particularly effective by the way for growth, because if people don't activate or churn, they don't want to talk to you.
顺便说一下，这对增长非常有效，因为如果人们不活跃或不流失，他们就不想与你交谈。
But if you can present that thing in their activation or conversion journey, they might actually talk to you.
但如果你能在他们的激活或转化过程中展示这一点，他们可能真的会和你交谈。
And so that's really key.
所以这真的很关键。
So I 100% agree with Teresa, that's exactly what you should do for not even, I wouldn't even call it discoveries for listening, and some of it can be discovery.
所以我100%同意Teresa的观点，这正是你应该做的，我什至不会称其为聆听的发现，其中一些可以是发现。
Yeah, I think that's exactly what you should do.
是的，我认为这正是你应该做的。
Lenny: As you're talking I'm realizing I'm using most of the products you help build.
莱尼：正如你所说，我意识到我正在使用你帮助构建的大部分产品。
I'm on Twitter a lot.
我经常上推特。
I use Calendly a lot.
我经常使用 Calendly。
I use Typeform as my default survey tool.
我使用 Typeform 作为我的默认调查工具。
Oji Udezue: I saw that, my team is really excited that you're using Typeform.
Oji Udezue：我看到了，我的团队对您使用 Typeform 感到非常兴奋。
Lenny: You've impacted my life in so many ways, Oji.
莱尼：王子，你在很多方面影响了我的生活。
Oji Udezue: I think you owe me money, Lenny-
Oji Udezue：我想你欠我钱，莱尼-
Lenny: What do you need?
莱尼：你需要什么？
How much?
多少？
Give me your Venmo QR code, it's on .
给我你的 Venmo 二维码，它位于 。
Lenny: You fell in love with building products for a reason, but sometimes the day-to-day reality is a little different than you imagined.
Lenny：你爱上构建产品是有原因的，但有时日常现实与你想象的有点不同。
Instead of dreaming up big ideas, talking to customers and crafting a strategy, you're drowning in spreadsheets and roadmap updates, and you're spending your days basically putting out fires.
您没有梦想出伟大的想法，与客户交谈并制定策略，而是淹没在电子表格和路线图更新中，并且您的时间基本上都花在救火上。
A better way is possible.
更好的方法是可能的。
Introducing Jira Product Discovery, the new prioritization and road mapping tool built for product teams by Atlassian.
隆重推出 Jira Product Discovery，这是 Atlassian 为产品团队构建的全新优先级划分和路线图绘制工具。
With Jira Product Discovery, you can gather all your product ideas and insights in one place and prioritize confidently, finally replacing those endless spreadsheets.
借助 Jira Product Discovery，您可以将所有产品创意和见解收集到一处，并自信地确定优先顺序，最终取代那些无休无止的电子表格。
Lenny: Create and share custom product roadmaps with any stakeholder in seconds.
Lenny：在几秒钟内创建并与任何利益相关者共享自定义产品路线图。
And it's all built on Jira, where your engineering team is already working, so true collaboration is finally possible.
这一切都建立在 Jira 上，您的工程团队已经在 Jira 上工作，因此真正的协作终于成为可能。
Great products are built by great teams, not just engineers, sales, support, leadership, even Greg from finance.
伟大的产品是由伟大的团队打造的，不仅仅是工程师、销售、支持、领导层，甚至是来自财务部门的格雷格。
Anyone that you want can contribute ideas, feedback, and insights in Jira Product Discovery for free, no catch.
您想要的任何人都可以在 Jira Product Discovery 中免费贡献想法、反馈和见解，没有任何限制。
And it's only $10 a month for you.
而且每月只需 10 美元。
Say goodbye to your spreadsheets and the never ending alignment efforts.
告别电子表格和无休止的对齐工作。
The old way of doing product management is over.
旧的产品管理方式已经结束。
Rediscover what's possible with Jira Product Discovery.
重新发现 Jira Product Discovery 的可能性。
Try for free at atlassian.com/lenny.
请访问 atlassian.com/lenny 免费试用。
That's atlassian.com/lenny.
这是 atlassian.com/lenny。
Lenny: Getting back on track.
莱尼：回到正轨。
Another important part of the book that you're writing is around onboarding.
您所写的书中的另一个重要部分是关于入职培训的。
And something that I talk a lot about on this podcast is just the power of onboarding and how impactful it's to retention and so much of the eventual success of your product and how customers use it.
我在这个播客中经常谈论的内容就是入职的力量以及它对保留的影响力以及产品的最终成功以及客户如何使用它。
And so I'd love to hear just your advice on what you think is really important, I guess why onboarding is so important in success and PLG.
因此，我很想听听您认为真正重要的建议，我猜为什么入职对于成功和 PLG 如此重要。
And also just what tactics have you found to be really effective?
您发现哪些策略真正有效？
Oji Udezue: Let me talk about a few fundamentals.
Oji Udezue：让我谈谈一些基本原理。
Onboarding is a substitute for sales and all these account management teams for millions of customers.
入职培训可以替代销售和所有这些为数百万客户服务的客户管理团队。
The task is how do you make it approximate a human and how friendly a human is and how approachable a human is?
任务是如何让它接近人类以及人类有多友好以及人类有多平易近人？
Because if you can do that, then you can process thousands and thousands of customers very quickly.
因为如果你能做到这一点，那么你就可以非常快速地处理成千上万的客户。
Onboarding is an exercise in understanding the mindset of a buyer, of an evaluator.
入职培训是一种了解买家和评估者心态的练习。
It's nothing more than that.
仅此而已。
Meaning that the province of understanding is social psychology, it's not really product, it's biopsychology.
这意味着理解的领域是社会心理学，它不是真正的产品，而是生物心理学。
And guess who knows a lot about this stuff, it's people in the offline industry.
猜猜谁对这些东西了解很多，他们是线下行业的人。
The people who stock shelves, the people who provide inventory online and so on and so forth.
给货架上货的人、在网上提供库存的人等等。
They are extraordinarily good at this.
他们在这方面非常擅长。
So the reason I say this is to divert people who are to really find where to source their inspiration from for onboarding, first of all.
所以我这么说的原因是为了转移那些真正想从哪里获得入职灵感的人。
Oji Udezue: If you think about this as intentful in that way, which is people come not knowing anything about you and in a progressively developed confidence that you are the tool of choice, you then have to break it down into how does that journey go through a mind, the average mind anyway, and how do you assist each part?
Oji Udezue：如果你认为这是有意的，即人们对你一无所知，并且逐渐相信你是选择的工具，那么你必须将其分解为该旅程如何通过头脑，无论如何是普通头脑，以及你如何协助每个部分？
One is value proposition, understanding, one is trying to see if it's simple enough and provides enough value.
一是价值主张、理解，一是试图看看它是否足够简单并提供足够的价值。
One is kicking tires and one is making the choice that this is something I'm going to go forward with.
一个是踢轮胎，一个是做出选择，这是我要继续做的事情。
How does your onboarding support hit all of these things?
您的入职支持如何解决所有这些问题？
Now I think there are two parts of onboarding.
现在我认为入职有两个部分。
One is mandatory, the setup, it has to be spare.
一是强制的，设置的，就必须是备用的。
I try not to make it more than three screens, but it's about how do you say what this does and provide the essential setup that your customer needs to be successful?
我尽量不让它超过三个屏幕，但问题是你如何说明它的作用并提供客户成功所需的基本设置？
Oji Udezue: At Calendly, for example, we asked them about connecting their calendar and setting some defaults.
Oji Udezue：例如，在 Calendly，我们询问他们如何连接日历并设置一些默认值。
Is it 9:00 to 5:00 or whatever that is?
是 9:00 到 5:00 还是其他时间？
Those two things set up all the future success.
这两件事奠定了未来所有的成功。
And if we made it optional, more people would fail.
如果我们将其设为可选，更多的人将会失败。
So it's information and the essential setup, and it should be as short as possible.
所以它是信息和基本设置，并且应该尽可能短。
Then there's a whole other set of things that should be optional because they're not necessary for everyone to be successful, but they're beneficial if people are curious.
还有一整套其他的事情应该是可选的，因为它们并不是每个人成功所必需的，但如果人们好奇的话，它们是有益的。
And also, it can be what we call a random access, so people can get back to it any time they want, if they're feeling help.
而且，它可以是我们所说的随机访问，因此人们可以在需要时随时返回它，如果他们感到有帮助的话。
And so if you divide onboarding into those two things and then figure out what to put in one and what to put in the other, I think you can be quite successful.
因此，如果你将入职培训分为这两件事，然后弄清楚在其中一件事中放入什么，在另一件事中放入什么，我认为你会非常成功。
And this is just the tip of the iceberg that I get into in the book.
这只是我在书中所了解的冰山一角。
Lenny: Are there any examples of really big onboarding wins, things that really helped with conversion or activation that come to mind?
Lenny：是否有任何真正大的入职成功的例子，或者真正有助于转化或激活的事情？
Oji Udezue: Well, I think keep it short is one big win.
Oji Udezue：嗯，我认为保持简短是一大胜利。
The fewer things, the better, that are essential, that everyone has to go through.
事情越少越好，这是必不可少的，每个人都必须经历的。
It's unclear if all those clickthroughs go here, go here, and all those things work-
目前还不清楚所有这些点击是否都在这里，到这里，并且所有这些事情都有效 -
Oji Udezue: Yeah.
王子乌德泽：是的。
The wizards have had, in my experience, limited benefit.
根据我的经验，奇才们获得的好处有限。
So much as just directing people to the one thing that they need to do post mandatory onboarding.
就像只是引导人们去做他们在强制入职后需要做的一件事。
Having examples, not 10, one or two of what good looks like is particularly powerful because it's mimetic.
有例子，而不是十个，一两个看起来不错的东西特别有力，因为它是模仿的。
People see, oh, okay, this is exactly what I'm shooting for, is very powerful.
人们看到，哦，好吧，这正是我拍摄的目的，非常强大。
In terms of trial and conversion, letting people understand and being very clear about where they are in the trial cycle, whether you want them to pay for it now or they need to pay for it later, after seven days.
在试用和转换方面，让人们了解并非常清楚他们处于试用周期的哪个阶段，是希望他们现在付费还是需要稍后（7天后）付费。
Having them understand that really clearly so they know where they are versus they feel like they're completely at sea, I think is very important for conversion.
让他们真正清楚地理解这一点，这样他们就知道自己在哪里，而不是感觉自己完全在海上，我认为这对于转变非常重要。
Oji Udezue: I think there are a few things like that, but I also want to mention that it's different for every product.
Oji Udezue：我认为有一些类似的事情，但我也想提一下，每个产品都是不同的。
Depending on where you are in the quadrant and the amount of augmentation and problem solving and how sharp the problem is, you might want to adjust your approach.
根据您在象限中的位置以及增强和解决问题的数量以及问题的尖锐程度，您可能需要调整您的方法。
And this is the kind of thing that there's some fundamentals, but it's not necessarily this one size fits all.
这种事情有一些基本原理，但不一定是放之四海而皆准的。
In fact, at Typeform, we're trying to maybe invent a new twist on freemium just because of some of the things we're seeing for our particular customers.
事实上，在 Typeform，我们正试图发明一种免费增值的新花样，只是因为我们为特定客户看到了一些东西。
And so yeah, these are for me, some new learning as well as I go through each different product.
所以，是的，这些对我来说是一些新的学习，以及我浏览每种不同的产品。
Lenny: Along these lines of onboarding activation and getting a user activated is really important.
Lenny：按照这些思路，引导激活和激活用户非常重要。
And I'm curious, do you have an example of what an activation milestone was at Calendly or Twitter or a Typeform?
我很好奇，您是否有关于 Calendly、Twitter 或 Typeform 的激活里程碑的示例？
Just to give people a sense of like here's a good example of an activated user milestone.
只是为了给人们一种感觉，这里有一个激活用户里程碑的好例子。
Oji Udezue: I think this goes back to people, the Pendos and the Amplitudes of this world.
Oji Udezue：我认为这可以追溯到人、这个世界的Pendos和Amplitudes。
You have to think through your aha journey.
你必须仔细思考你的顿悟之旅。
Like at Calendly and also at Typeform we have three thresholds of increasing activation.
就像在 Calendly 和 Typeform 一样，我们有三个增加激活的阈值。
And we just try to make sure that people go through each one as many people as possible.
我们只是尽力确保人们尽可能多地浏览每一本书。
And frankly, we try to figure the drop-off between the increasing definitions of activation.
坦率地说，我们试图找出激活定义不断增加之间的下降情况。
So at Calendly we want to make sure you've created your first meeting.
因此，在 Calendly，我们希望确保您已经创建了第一次会议。
But then if you've created five within a week, that's really much more powerful.
但如果你在一周内创建了五个，那就真的更强大了。
At Typeform, it's really about have you published the form and have you gotten responses?
在 Typeform，真正重要的是您是否发布了表单并收到了回复？
And have you gone to look at what the responses mean in the insights page, for example.
例如，您是否去查看过见解页面中的回复意味着什么？
Oji Udezue: At Twitter it is are you following anyone or are you being followed?
Oji Udezue：在 Twitter 上，你关注的是任何人还是你被关注了？
Because that verb, follow, is the way you start to construct your informal community.
因为动词“跟随”是您开始构建非正式社区的方式。
Remember what I said is Twitter is for people who want informal community around a topic that is not...
请记住我所说的是 Twitter 是为那些希望围绕非...主题的非正式社区的人们而设计的。
Facebook is about who do you know, Twitter is about who do you want to know?
Facebook 是关于你认识谁，Twitter 是关于你想认识谁？
Who's passionate about what you're passionate about?
谁对你所热衷的事情充满热情？
And so if you haven't set up your follow graph at all, you're not going to really activate.
因此，如果您根本没有设置关注图，您就不会真正激活。
It's not going to be compelling for you.
这对你来说不会有吸引力。
Lenny: Awesome, those are great examples.
莱尼：太棒了，这些都是很好的例子。
It's funny hearing that Twitter activation milestone out of context sounds, so creepy.
听到 Twitter 激活里程碑断章取义的声音听起来很有趣，太令人毛骨悚然了。
Have you followed anyone or is anyone following you?
您关注过任何人吗？或者有人关注您吗？
Oji Udezue: Yeah, because a lot of people go in and then they tweet into the void or they don't feel like they have a voice.
Oji Udezue：是的，因为很多人进去后就发推文，或者他们觉得自己没有发言权。
But that's not the most important thing.
但这还不是最重要的。
Most important thing is are you getting content that you are interested in that makes you want to come back and see more of it and follow is a huge part of doing that.
最重要的是，您是否获得了自己感兴趣的内容，让您想回来查看更多内容，而关注是做到这一点的重要组成部分。
Lenny: Yeah.
莱尼：是的。
Just on the point of Twitter, I don't know if this goes anywhere, but it's crazy how it keeps going no matter how much destruction is happening all around, employees-
就推特而言，我不知道这是否会蔓延到任何地方，但无论周围发生了多少破坏，它仍然继续下去，这真是太疯狂了，员工们——
Oji Udezue: Oh, you want me to talk about that?
Oji Udezue：哦，你想让我谈谈这个吗？
Because I want to talk about this.
因为我想谈谈这个。
Oji Udezue: So one of the things they, I don't want to say they, one of the things I learned early on is network effects.
Oji Udezue：所以他们的一件事，我不想说他们，我早期学到的一件事是网络效应。
Oji Udezue: Network effects, let me define it.
Oji Udezue：网络效应，让我来定义它。
Network effects is when you create value for passive members by other people joining the network.
网络效应是指您通过其他人加入网络为被动成员创造价值。
So I am by myself, I have done nothing.
所以我一个人，什么也没做。
I'm at home, chilling, but one person joins the network and immediately I gain benefit, okay.
我在家里，浑身不寒而栗，但是一个人加入了网络，我立刻就受益了，好吧。
So think about Facebook.
所以想想 Facebook。
If there are eight billion people on Facebook, it means that all of a sudden I can reach everyone on the planet.
如果 Facebook 上有 80 亿人，这意味着我突然可以接触到地球上的每个人。
And so the more people on Facebook, the more it's valuable to me regardless of my effort.
因此，无论我付出多少努力，Facebook 上的人越多，它对我来说就越有价值。
That's network effect.
这就是网络效应。
If I'm into Word, word processor, Microsoft Word, and the more people who use that file format, it means that the more Word documents I can read.
如果我喜欢 Word、文字处理程序、Microsoft Word，并且使用该文件格式的人越多，就意味着我可以阅读的 Word 文档就越多。
Oji Udezue: And so I did nothing, so by increasing the people adoption of Word, I gain benefit.
Oji Udezue：所以我什么也没做，所以通过增加人们对 Word 的采用，我获得了好处。
Network effect, that's what it is.
网络效应，就是这样。
So Twitter and then this is the mental model of critical mass, network effect is about critical mass.
所以Twitter，这就是临界质量的心智模型，网络效应是关于临界质量的。
You hit a critical mass and sometimes that's not mathematically defined, and then you've hit network effect because people want to come because people are already there.
你达到了临界质量，有时这在数学上是无法定义的，然后你就达到了网络效应，因为人们想要来，因为人们已经在那里了。
So Twitter has hit critical mass and lots of your favorite social networks.
因此 Twitter 已经达到了临界点，并且已经成为许多你最喜欢的社交网络的一部分。
Network effects is a feature by itself, and it's the most powerful feature.
网络效应本身就是一个功能，而且是最强大的功能。
A good way to illustrate the power of network effects is Twitter did not die because Threads came about, that's the power of network effect.
说明网络效应力量的一个好方法是 Twitter 并没有因为 Threads 的出现而消亡，这就是网络效应的力量。
In fact, the last telegram was sent in 2016, over 100 years after it was invented because of network effects.
事实上，最后一封电报是在 2016 年发出的，距离电报因网络效应而发明已有 100 多年。
It had to be manually closed down.
必须手动关闭它。
Oji Udezue: I believe Friendster is still alive, so we have to be really clear that it's really hard to kill a network effects business.
Oji Udezue：我相信 Friendster 还活着，所以我们必须非常清楚，要扼杀网络效应业务确实很难。
Now how do you actually accomplish it if you were to accomplish it?
现在，如果你要实现它，你实际上如何实现它呢？
Well, the revenue side of any social network is vulnerable to attack.
嗯，任何社交网络的收入方面都容易受到攻击。
So for example, if advertisers stop being on Twitter, for example, they're not gone because again, network effects affects them.
例如，如果广告商不再出现在 Twitter 上，他们并没有消失，因为网络效应再次影响了他们。
They want to go where the eyeballs are.
他们想去眼球所在的地方。
But if for some reason they disappeared, while the people will continue to come, the ability to have money to improve the network will disappear.
但如果由于某种原因他们消失了，而人们会继续到来，有钱改善网络的能力就会消失。
And that is a negative spiral.
这是一个恶性循环。
What is very, very hard to kill business, it's hard to kill software that's reached network effect, although you can kill businesses that have reached network effect.
杀死业务非常非常困难，很难杀死已经达到网络效应的软件，尽管你可以杀死已经达到网络效应的企业。
Lenny: That's a really important and interesting insight.
莱尼：这是一个非常重要且有趣的见解。
I think what's even especially interesting about Twitter is Elon and the team have removed every other benefit of Twitter, like the brand, gone, employees, 80% gone.
我认为 Twitter 上特别有趣的是 Elon，团队已经取消了 Twitter 的所有其他好处，比如品牌消失了，员工也消失了 80%。
Every part of it is being cut off, except for the network effects, and so it's a really cool case study.
除了网络效应之外，它的每个部分都被切断了，所以这是一个非常酷的案例研究。
Dan Hockenmaier tweeted this, was a previous guest, of just like it's a good case study of what is just the power of just network effects.
丹·霍肯迈尔（Dan Hockenmaier）是之前的一位嘉宾，他在推特上发了这条推文，就像这是一个很好的案例研究，说明了网络效应的力量。
Oji Udezue: That's right.
王子乌德泽：是的。
I did a really interesting course at Berkeley Business School, asked about technology companies and so on, and this is a perfect case study on network effect.
我在伯克利商学院上了一门非常有趣的课程，询问了科技公司等等，这是一个关于网络效应的完美案例研究。
The best I've ever seen.
我见过的最好的。
It is incredible.
这太不可思议了。
Lenny: Yeah, it's wild Threads isn't able to get there quickly, unlike what it felt like initially.
Lenny：是的，与最初的感觉不同，Threads 无法快速到达那里，这很疯狂。
Oji Udezue: Threads will prosper, I believe.
Oji Udezue：我相信线程将会繁荣。
And again, it'll just be another click for advertisers who understand the Facebook marketplace versus Twitter ad marketplace is much harder to access.
再说一次，对于了解 Facebook 市场与 Twitter 广告市场更难访问的广告商来说，这只是又一次点击。
And so I think the way Threads wins is the revenue spiral versus the pure activity spiral.
因此，我认为 Threads 获胜的方式是收入螺旋与纯粹活动螺旋。
Lenny: Interesting.
莱尼：有趣。
Where essentially they find ways to, even with lower base, generate revenue, which drives advertisers, drives more investment.
本质上，即使基数较低，他们也能找到产生收入的方法，从而推动广告商、推动更多投资。
Lenny: Awesome.
莱尼：太棒了。
All right.
好的。
That'll be fun story to watch.
这将是一个有趣的故事。
Kind of along those same lines, I want to chat about virality a little bit.
类似地，我想谈谈病毒式传播。
You worked on some of those viral products out there in B2C, I guess Twitter is an example, but also in B2B, which is really rare and interesting.
你在 B2C 领域开发了一些病毒式产品，我想 Twitter 就是一个例子，但在 B2B 领域也有类似的工作，这确实很少见且有趣。
And I know there's no silver bullet for increasing virality, but everyone's always wondering, how do I increase the virality of my product?
我知道没有提高病毒式传播的灵丹妙药，但每个人总是想知道，如何提高产品的病毒式传播？
So I'm curious, anything you could share, any tactics that you've seen work to increase the virality, especially of a B2B product?
所以我很好奇，您可以分享什么，您见过哪些可以提高病毒式传播的策略，尤其是 B2B 产品？
Oji Udezue: Well, as is my style, I want people to understand what virality is in the first place because I think people have misconceptions about it.
Oji Udezue：嗯，按照我的风格，我希望人们首先了解什么是病毒式传播，因为我认为人们对此有误解。
People think virality is some Hotmails tag at the bottom that says, we'll get a free account.
人们认为病毒式传播是 Hotmails 底部的一些标签，上面写着“我们将获得一个免费帐户”。
Virality is really when the word of mouth of a product is high quality.
病毒式传播实际上是指产品的口碑是高质量的。
That's really the essence of it.
这确实是它的本质。
Let me rephrase that.
让我重新表述一下。
It's when customers market your product.
这是客户推销您的产品的时候。
And that is incredibly powerful, but also that's incredibly actionable, if that makes sense.
这是非常强大的，而且也是非常可行的，如果这有意义的话。
There are products who try to be viral just for what I call synthetic virality that fail.
有些产品试图通过我所说的“合成病毒式传播”而获得病毒式传播，但最终失败了。
Because in the end, if you're synthetically viral and people get to the product and it sucks, that's it.
因为最终，如果你的产品具有综合病毒性，人们接触到该产品后发现它很糟糕，那就这样了。
That's the end.
就这样结束了。
Even Hotmail, for example, people talk about the viral tag.
例如，即使是 Hotmail，人们也会谈论病毒标签。
I don't know, you know what I'm talking about?
我不知道，你知道我在说什么吗？
Because I-
因为我——
Lenny: Absolutely, at the bottom, yes .
莱尼：当然，从根本上来说，是的。
Oji Udezue: Well remember, it wasn't just that.
Oji Udezue：请记住，不仅仅是这样。
It was one of the first webmail things.
这是最早的网络邮件之一。
And webmail was revolutionary because you didn't have to have a POP3 client and lose your email across multiple devices.
网络邮件是革命性的，因为您不必拥有 POP3 客户端，也不必在多个设备上丢失电子邮件。
It solved a lot of really good problems for customers at the time for email.
它为当时的客户解决了很多关于电子邮件的非常好的问题。
And so when they arrived from the free account, it was like, holy crap, this is amazing.
因此，当他们从免费帐户到达时，感觉就像是，天哪，这太棒了。
And so let's do that.
那么让我们这样做吧。
Uber doesn't have any weird viral traps, but it compresses the workflow of getting a cab so much that it's viral, if that makes sense.
Uber 没有任何奇怪的病毒陷阱，但它大大压缩了打车的工作流程，以至于它像病毒一样传播，如果这有意义的话。
In fact, it was this time where Austin kicked them out for and other apps came in and filled the void, and then it came back after the year and just crushed everybody.
事实上，正是在这个时候，奥斯汀将他们踢出了局，其他应用程序进来填补了空白，然后一年后它又卷土重来，压垮了所有人。
There was no campaign, it was just viral by itself.
没有任何宣传活动，它本身就像病毒一样传播开来。
So that's what virality is.
这就是病毒式传播。
So then the question is how do you increase it?
那么问题来了，如何增加呢？
Oji Udezue: Well look, fundamentally build a great product that solves a sharp problem and build it really well.
Oji Udezue：好吧，从根本上构建一个伟大的产品，解决一个尖锐的问题，并且构建得非常好。
If you do this, this is the bedrock of virality.
如果你这样做，这就是病毒式传播的基石。
If you don't do this, there's no viral tactic that will work in a sustained way.
如果你不这样做，就没有任何病毒式传播策略能够持续发挥作用。
It will fizzle.
它会失败。
But if you do this, you can lay on synthetic virality strategies for referral, strategies for coming back into the app and creating an account.
但如果你这样做，你就可以采用综合病毒式传播策略进行推荐、返回应用程序并创建帐户的策略。
Remember before Calendly, there was Acuity scheduling, there was other things.
记得在 Calendly 之前，有 Acuity 调度，还有其他东西。
The difference was Calendly was so well-made, so simple for schedulers, so respectful of schedulers' time, not just the creator's time that the virality worked.
不同之处在于 Calendly 制作精良，对于调度者来说如此简单，如此尊重调度者的时间，而不仅仅是创作者的时间，病毒式传播才有效。
It did not work for others who sucked.
它对其他糟糕的人不起作用。
Xted AI and other places, they weren't that good.
Xted AI 和其他地方，它们并不是那么好。
You have to be good to be viral.
你必须表现出色才能像病毒一样传播。
Lenny: That is such an important insight, that everyone looks at Calendly like of course you're sharing calendars with everyone, it's going to go viral.
Lenny：这是一个非常重要的见解，每个人都在关注 Calendly，就像你当然在与每个人共享日历一样，它会像病毒一样传播开来。
That's like what a cool trick.
这真是一个很酷的把戏。
But your point is so interesting that there's previous versions of that, but the product itself wasn't great.
但你的观点很有趣，以前有过版本，但产品本身并不好。
The experience wasn't great.
体验不太好。
It was too complicated, it didn't work, and that's what made it so viral.
它太复杂了，行不通，这就是它如此火爆的原因。
Oji Udezue: Yeah, there may be several things I think affect virality.
Oji Udezue：是的，我认为可能有几件事会影响病毒式传播。
But I think that this is the nugget that people need to take away, that is the foundation of bedrock of all of them.
但我认为这是人们需要带走的金块，这是所有这些的基石。
Customer support actually affects virality.
客户支持实际上会影响病毒式传播。
If you have fanatical customer support, people will love it.
如果你有狂热的客户支持，人们会喜欢它。
Viral tactics like the page that says, oh, get an account, and so on.
病毒式策略，例如页面上写着“哦，获取一个帐户”等等。
All these signing documents, Calendly and so on and so forth.
所有这些签署文件，Calendly等等。
Network effects as in Calendly, you have these green dots.
网络效应就像 Calendly 一样，有这些绿点。
If you and a person have, Calendly tells you when you're free, all network effects, really high quality execution, synthetic virality all contribute to net virality.
如果你和一个人有空，Calendly 会告诉你，所有网络效应、真正高质量的执行、合成病毒式传播都有助于网络病毒式传播。
But the fundamental is exactly what we just discussed.
但基本原理正是我们刚才讨论的。
Lenny: Just got to get it all right.
莱尼：一定要把事情做好。
No big deal.
没什么大不了的。
Oji Udezue: Build the best product possible, honestly, if you want to be viral.
Oji Udezue：说实话，如果你想获得病毒式传播，就尽可能打造最好的产品。
Slack wasn't even viral, there was no synthetic virality.
Slack甚至不是病毒式的，没有合成的病毒式传播。
Slack couldn't even connect to organizations for the longest time.
Slack 甚至在很长一段时间内无法连接到组织。
Why?
为什么？
You could be working on the third floor and so on, using Slack on the fourth floor, and you would have no clue.
你可能在三楼工作，依此类推，在四楼使用 Slack，但你不会有任何线索。
There's no way to share it with them.
没有办法与他们分享。
But what happens when you went to lunch?
但是当你去吃午饭时会发生什么？
People are like, "We got Slack and this is amazing." And people on the third floor are like, "Holy shit, when can we get it?" Boom, boom, boom.
人们会说，“我们有了 Slack，这太棒了。”三楼的人会说，“天哪，我们什么时候才能拿到？”繁荣，繁荣，繁荣。
Great product first is virality.
伟大的产品首先是病毒式传播。
Lenny: Seth Godin has this phrase they always come back to, if you want to make your product remarkable, something people want to remark about, and that's basically the core of word of mouth.
莱尼：塞斯·戈丁（Seth Godin）有这样一句话，如果你想让你的产品变得非凡，人们想要评论的话，他们总是会想起这句话，这基本上是口碑的核心。
Lenny: I was watching a talk you did on this kind of topic and you had this great phrase that you sort of touched on, but I think it's so good, and I just want to make sure we highlight it, which is that virality is customer augmented marketing.
莱尼：我正在观看您就此类主题所做的演讲，您提到了这个很棒的短语，但我认为它非常好，我只是想确保我们强调它，即病毒式传播是客户增强营销。
Oji Udezue: Yeah, I think it is the thing that I started with first.
Oji Udezue：是的，我认为这是我首先开始的事情。
It's when your marketing is essentially done by your customers because what it does, it affords you the ability to spend less on marketing.
当你的营销基本上是由你的客户完成时，因为它的作用使你能够减少营销支出。
And you can either uplevel your marketing execution or save money that you can put in the product.
您可以提高营销执行力，也可以节省投入产品的资金。
Atlassian spends maybe like 10, 20 percentage points less on marketing than the equivalent competitors because it's viral and also because it's network effects at this point as well, say Jira.
Jira 表示，Atlassian 在营销方面的支出可能比同等竞争对手少 10 到 20 个百分点，因为它具有病毒式传播性，而且还因为它在这一点上的网络效应。
And so it's customer augmented marketing.
这就是客户增强营销。
Your customers are either forcing other people to adopt it or shaming them into adopting it or FOMOing them into adopting it.
您的客户要么强迫其他人采用它，要么羞辱他们采用它，要么害怕他们采用它。
So yes, virality is essentially customer oriented marketing, which gives you options.
所以，是的，病毒式传播本质上是一种以客户为导向的营销，它为你提供了选择。
Lenny: I love that phrase, I'm going to use it now.
莱尼：我喜欢这句话，我现在就要使用它。
I have just a few more questions before we get to a very exciting lightning round, and these are kind of random two topics that I wanted to chat on.
在我们进入非常激动人心的闪电回合之前，我还有几个问题，这些是我想聊的随机两个主题。
One is this concept that you call forest time.
其中一个就是你称之为森林时间的概念。
It's a post you wrote about the importance of forest time.
这是您写的一篇关于森林时间重要性的文章。
Can you just describe what that is and why it's so important, and then also just how to do this?
您能否描述一下这是什么以及为什么它如此重要，以及如何做到这一点？
Oji Udezue: I operate, I'm an operator right now, meaning that I'm building things, I work for a company.
Oji Udezue：我负责运营，我现在是一名运营商，这意味着我正在建造东西，我为一家公司工作。
But I also advise and invest, which is different.
但我也提供建议和投资，这是不同的。
When I'm advising, I'm looking from above, from outside, I have a bird's eye view and I'm able to say, "You know what?
当我提供建议时，我会从上面、从外面看，我有一个鸟瞰图，我可以说，“你知道吗？
This will work.
这会起作用。
This won't work.
这行不通。
What have you done?
你做了什么？
Can I look at the results?" And then cycle the advice based on what you're seeing and what I'm seeing.
我可以看看结果吗？”然后根据你所看到的和我所看到的循环提供建议。
When I'm operating, I'm building a team, I'm hiring, I'm managing all the things, Alina, shout out that hates sometimes.
当我在运营时，我正在建立一个团队，我正在招聘，我正在管理所有事情，阿丽娜，有时会大声喊出令人讨厌的事情。
And that's what I'm doing.
这就是我正在做的事情。
When you are operating, you have the tug of war.
当你操作的时候，你会遇到拉锯战。
It is so intense that you don't have the attention to have a bird's eye view constantly.
它是如此强烈，以至于你无法集中注意力不断地鸟瞰。
Oji Udezue: And so forest time is the idea that you make time within your week, within your month to see the forest for the trees.
Oji Udezue：森林时间是指你在一周内、一个月内抽出时间去看树木、见森林。
Most of the time when you're operating, you're seeing the tree, which is the problem in front of you.
大多数时候你在操作的时候，看到的是树，这就是摆在你面前的问题。
But sometimes you need to see the forest, so you can figure out it as an alternate path, different from the one that you are currently on your campaign.
但有时你需要看到森林，这样你就可以将其视为另一条路径，与你当前的战役中的路径不同。
And so it's time to elevate, to get some bird's eye view, to see the entire landscape and see the alternative paths through the current problems that you're escaping.
因此，是时候提升自己，鸟瞰整个景观，并找到解决当前正在逃避的问题的替代路径。
And I think that it has to be very intentional.
我认为这必须是非常有意的。
And intentionality there is, I have published a workflow, a document that helps you make that step to make that elevation.
我已经发布了一个工作流程，一个文档，可以帮助您迈出实现这一提升的步骤。
Oji Udezue: Like what are the issues?
Oji Udezue：有什么问题吗？
What are alternative ways to solve this potentially that I'm not seeing?
有哪些我没有看到的替代方法可以解决这个问题？
Et cetera.
等等。
And what I try to do is I try to create that forest time for my executive team as well because it's not just me that suffers from this, it's most everybody.
我试图做的是，我也尝试为我的执行团队创造森林时间，因为受此困扰的不仅仅是我，而是大多数人。
In fact, it's most PMs because PMs are so influential that the spoke of the wheel of product creation and product development that we often, it's a sine wave.
事实上，大多数 PM 都是如此，因为 PM 的影响力如此之大，以至于我们经常说的产品创建和产品开发之轮的轮辐是正弦波。
You are discovering and shaping problems and then you are commanding and captaining execution.
你发现并塑造问题，然后你指挥并领导执行。
And it's endless and they're endless meetings.
这是无休无止的，他们是无休止的会议。
And so you need to create time for forest time, for elevation.
所以你需要为森林时间、海拔创造时间。
If you don't, you'll become less effective over time.
如果你不这样做，随着时间的推移，你的效率就会降低。
It's just attrition.
这只是消耗。
Lenny: And then just to make it even more concrete for people, what are examples of forest time?
莱尼：为了让人们更加具体，森林时间的例子有哪些？
Is it taking time off?
是要请假吗？
Is it advising on the side?
是在旁边提供建议吗？
Is it-
难道是——
Oji Udezue: It is taking a day off at the end of a month, a full day or two days.
Oji Udezue：是指月底休息一天、一整天或两天。
And instead of just playing golf, although that's fine, it is doing a workflow, worksheet to survey the forest specifically.
虽然这很好，但不仅仅是打高尔夫球，它正在做一个工作流程、工作表来专门调查森林。
And sometimes managers are like, "Wait, you're giving people a day off when they should be working harder and harder?" And I think it's completely worth it.
有时经理们会说，“等等，当员工应该更加努力地工作时，你却给他们放了一天假吗？”我认为这是完全值得的。
It's not about working harder, it's working smarter.
这不是更努力地工作，而是更聪明地工作。
It's about seeing more options than you see.
这是关于看到比你看到的更多的选择。
And so I'm very happy to give that time to product managers, to product executives or design executives or engineering executives.
因此，我很高兴将这些时间交给产品经理、产品主管、设计主管或工程主管。
Oji Udezue: Because I think that if they do it properly, then we'll have better execution in the long run.
Oji Udezue：因为我认为如果他们做得正确，那么从长远来看我们会有更好的执行力。
Let's put it this way, in product development, we aim for maybe like 10% of the time and then we execute and build for the other side.
这么说吧，在产品开发中，我们的目标是大约 10% 的时间，然后我们为另一方执行和构建。
It's not just, there's more stuff we do.
这不仅仅是，我们还有更多的事情要做。
If your aim is off, then you are spending one, $2 million incorrectly of people's time.
如果你的目标偏离了，那么你就错误地花费了人们一、两百万美元的时间。
And so forest time should improve your aim.
所以森林时间应该可以提高你的目标。
That's the entire point, because your aim is a precursor to a huge amount of investment.
这就是重点，因为你的目标是大量投资的先兆。
And so I think it's well worth it.
所以我认为这是非常值得的。
Lenny: I love this.
莱尼：我喜欢这个。
So specifically what you do with your team is once a month, you give them a day to do this kind of worksheet that you put together?
那么具体来说，您与团队一起做的事情是每月一次，您给他们一天的时间来完成您整理的此类工作表？
Lenny: And then that worksheet is in this post that you wrote, that you point to.
莱尼：然后该工作表就在您写的、您指出的这篇文章中。
Is that right?
是这样吗？
Lenny: Amazing.
莱尼：太棒了。
Okay, great.
好的，太好了。
This is very practical advice.
这是非常实用的建议。
I love it.
我喜欢它。
Okay, one last question before a very exciting lightning round.
好的，在激动人心的闪电回合之前还有最后一个问题。
You worked at Bridgewater Associates, which I didn't know until I started digging into your past.
你曾在 Bridgewater Associates 工作，直到我开始挖掘你的过去时我才知道。
That sounds creepy.
这听起来令人毛骨悚然。
And Bridgewater Associates famous for what?
桥水基金因什么而出名？
Ray Dalio's hedge fund, author of Principals and all these other incredible books, and it's a very unique working environment.
雷·达里奥 (Ray Dalio) 的对冲基金，《校长》和所有其他令人难以置信的书籍的作者，这是一个非常独特的工作环境。
So I just wanted to ask about your experience there, specifically one of the craziest things there is just this thing called dots I think it's called, where people just call out mistakes that people make at the company and it's public.
所以我只是想问一下你在那里的经历，特别是最疯狂的事情之一就是这个叫做“点”的东西，我认为它被称为“点”，人们只是指出人们在公司犯下的错误并且是公开的。
Is that how it actually was?
实际情况是这样吗？
Any memories of that?
有那件事的回忆吗？
Oji Udezue: Yeah, yeah.
王子乌德泽：是啊是啊。
I was a senior management, what's called an SMA, which is the management layer right under Ray's team.
我是一名高级管理层，即所谓的 SMA，即 Ray 团队下面的管理层。
And we were the priests of the Church of Bridgewater.
我们是布里奇沃特教堂的牧师。
Bridgewater did things like record, this is public knowledge, I'm not saying anything-
桥水做了类似记录之类的事情，这是众所周知的，我什么也没说-
Oji Udezue: ...
王子乌德泽：……
before every meeting.
每次会议之前。
Eventually we created a dot collector, which allows you to rate people in real time.
最终我们创建了一个点收集器，它允许您实时对人们进行评分。
So I'm just having a conversation with you and before the meeting closes, in front of each other, I pull up my laptop and I rate you and rate the interaction.
因此，我只是在与您交谈，在会议结束之前，当着彼此的面，我拿出我的笔记本电脑，对您和互动进行评分。
And in theory, the idea is that if you constantly rate people across hundreds of interactions, then you build a picture of them that is fairly accurate, statistically accurate, that will transcend maybe emotional relationship as wisdom of the crowd idea.
从理论上讲，这个想法是，如果你不断地在数百次互动中对人们进行评分，那么你就会对他们建立一个相当准确、统计上准确的形象，这将超越情感关系，成为群体智慧的想法。
So that's a theory.
所以这是一个理论。
In practice, it is emotionally exhausting.
实际上，这是一种精神上的疲惫。
And like you said, the little creepy, even the recording.
就像你说的，有点令人毛骨悚然，甚至是录音。
Oji Udezue: So I think there were things about Bridgewater that I understood intellectually in terms of the purpose that Ray had designed, but didn't quite work.
Oji Udezue：所以我认为关于桥水基金的一些事情，我在理智上理解了雷设计的目的，但并没有完全发挥作用。
It's like the way I think about this is the theory of the principles are really good.
我的想法是，原理理论非常好。
The practice and the execution can be quite off and not very human or not very empathetic.
实践和执行可能非常不人性化，或者不太具有同理心。
But I will say this, Bridgewater taught me things that I don't think any other organization in the world thought taught me.
但我要说的是，桥水教会了我一些我认为世界上任何其他组织都没有教过我的东西。
One example is Bridgewater thinks of people in three dimensions, their skills, their attributes, and their values.
一个例子是桥水基金从三个维度思考人：他们的技能、他们的特质和他们的价值观。
Most organizations think about people in terms of just their skills.
大多数组织只根据员工的技能来考虑他们。
But it makes sense that people have attributes and values, that people are timid, people are bold, people like to jump in, people like to stand back.
但人有属性和价值观，人胆怯，人大胆，人喜欢跳进去，人喜欢退后，这是有道理的。
Oji Udezue: All these other things, we think about personality and proclivity.
Oji Udezue：所有这些其他事情，我们都会考虑个性和倾向。
Bridgewater tries to establish and measure them and also tries to write job descriptions that say, this is the kind of attributes we're looking for, not just the skills we're looking for.
桥水试图建立和衡量它们，并尝试编写职位描述，表明这是我们正在寻找的属性，而不仅仅是我们正在寻找的技能。
And then of course values.
当然还有价值观。
Are you a thief or are you a principled?
你是小偷还是有原则的人？
And so on and so forth.
等等。
Now that idea of looking at talent or people in general, both in your professional life and in your personal life, is a huge addition to me as a professional from Bridgewater.
现在，在职业生涯和个人生活中关注人才或一般人的想法对我作为桥水的专业人士来说是一个巨大的补充。
So I'm saying that there were things I didn't enjoy about Bridgewater, but things that I learned that I've learned nowhere else as well.
所以我想说的是，桥水基金有一些我不喜欢的地方，但我学到了一些我在其他地方没有学到的东西。
Lenny: Did you take that to what you do today?
莱尼：你今天所做的事情是这样的吗？
Thinking of people in those three different ways and-
以这三种不同的方式思考人，并且——
Oji Udezue: 100%.
王子出津江：100%。
in my professional life, in my personal life, when I interview people, I am cognizant of those three things and I try to extract those three things, because I think it improves your success.
在我的职业生活中，在我的个人生活中，当我采访人们时，我认识到这三件事，并且我尝试提取这三件事，因为我认为这可以提高你的成功。
Famously, all the weird skill-based interviewing at Google was only 50/50 predictive.
众所周知，谷歌所有奇怪的基于技能的面试都只有 50/50 的预测率。
And the reason is Google did not consider the other two things, I believe.
我相信，原因是谷歌没有考虑其他两件事。
Bridgewater was willing to endure 80% attrition to arrive at the best people.
桥水基金愿意忍受 80% 的人员流失来吸引最优秀的人才。
Now I don't think it works for them because some of their system was not empathetic of humans, like expecting humans to be computers.
现在我认为这对他们不起作用，因为他们的某些系统无法理解人类，就像期望人类成为计算机一样。
But I thought that was a very important insight.
但我认为这是一个非常重要的见解。
Lenny: Awesome.
莱尼：太棒了。
Oji, is there anything else that you want to share before we get to our very exciting lightning round?
Oji，在我们开始激动人心的闪电回合之前，您还有什么想分享的吗？
Oji Udezue: In the history of product development, we have basically started to create abstraction to guide our work versus the Wild, Wild West.
Oji Udezue：在产品开发的历史上，我们基本上已经开始创建抽象来指导我们的工作，以对抗狂野的西部。
So the engineers came up with agile and peer programming and all these things.
因此，工程师们想出了敏捷和同行编程以及所有这些东西。
The designers have come up with design thinking, design sprints, and combined with research to talk about how to do discovery of various complexity.
设计师们提出了设计思维、设计冲刺，并结合研究来讨论如何去发现各种复杂性。
And the question is the product abstractions, because there's code, there's product in this business.
问题是产品抽象，因为这个行业有代码、有产品。
So the product and business layer, what is our abstraction?
那么产品和业务层，我们的抽象是什么呢？
What is our crucible for organizing our work?
我们组织工作的考验是什么？
Oji Udezue: We don't even have one.
Oji Udezue：我们连一个都没有。
We don't have a name for it.
我们没有它的名字。
And so the idea of a part system is that there's an abstraction above agile and design thinking that we have to pay attention to build solid organizations and to execute well at the product and the business layer.
因此，零件系统的想法是，在敏捷和设计思维之上有一个抽象，我们必须注意构建坚实的组织并在产品和业务层良好执行。
This is a co-creative framework with me and Ezinne.
这是我和 Ezinne 共同创作的框架。
And the idea here is how do you construct a good product system?
这里的想法是如何构建一个好的产品体系？
And literally, you could boil it down into a checklist of the systems you need to build a really good cohesive R and D organization.
从字面上看，您可以将其归结为建立一个真正良好的有凝聚力的研发组织所需的系统清单。
So I think that's the tee up.
所以我认为这就是开球。
I'm going to have to leave you thirsty because someone else is probably going to go deep into it.
我将不得不让你感到口渴，因为其他人可能会深入其中。
Lenny: Amazing.
莱尼：太棒了。
And that's your wife that you mentioned who you are co-creating this framework with and who we're going to have on the podcast in the future.
你提到的就是你的妻子，你正在与她共同创建这个框架，以及我们将来将在播客上看到的人。
Lenny: What is it like being married to another product leader?
Lenny：与另一位产品领导者结婚感觉如何？
Would you recommend?
你会推荐吗？
Oji Udezue: 100%, you can have really productive conversations and you can redesign other company's applications in one conversation in the evening.
Oji Udezue：100%，您可以进行非常富有成效的对话，并且可以在晚上的一次对话中重新设计其他公司的应用程序。
Lenny: Amazing.
莱尼：太棒了。
Well, that was almost the lightning round question, but I moved it up earlier.
好吧，这几乎是一个闪电般的问题，但我提前提出了。
And so with that we've reached our very exciting lightning round.
这样我们就进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。
Are you ready?
你准备好了吗？
Lenny: Okay, great.
莱尼：好的，太好了。
Let's do it.
我们开始做吧。
What are two or three books that you've recommended most to other people?
您向其他人推荐最多的两三本书是什么？
Oji Udezue: There's one business book that I recommend, I think it's called The Halo Effect.
Oji Udezue：我推荐一本商业书籍，我认为它叫《光环效应》。
It's basically a book that lets you call on all these business books that tell you all kinds of stupid shit.
这基本上是一本让你调用所有这些商业书籍的书，它们告诉你各种愚蠢的事情。
It is how to deconstruct what is important in a business and self-help book and what is not important and what is just circumstantial storytelling with random facts and form-fitting evidence.
它是如何解构一本商业和自助书籍中什么是重要的，什么是不重要的，什么只是用随机事实和形式合适的证据来讲述的间接故事。
It's called The Halo Effect.
这就是所谓的光环效应。
Read it.
阅读它。
Why do you need to read it?
为什么你需要阅读它？
Because garbage in, garbage Out.
因为垃圾进来，垃圾出去。
Oji Udezue: People were amazed at the Outlier Effect, Malcolm Gladwell, and then people have been tearing it down for 15 years now.
Oji Udezue：马尔科姆·格拉德威尔（Malcolm Gladwell）的离群效应让人们感到惊讶，然后人们已经将其推翻了 15 年。
But everyone ingested it and thought it was the most important thing.
但每个人都消化了它，并认为这是最重要的。
But how do you know what's important to take away from them and what's not?
但你怎么知道从他们身上拿走什么是重要的，什么是不重要的呢？
The Halo Effect will help you.
光环效应会对你有所帮助。
And then the other thing is, I read for pleasure because I read a lot for work.
另一件事是，我读书是为了乐趣，因为我为了工作读了很多书。
And so science fiction is the thing.
所以科幻小说就是这样。
There's lots to recommend, but I would say that people should either read Dune, Frank Herbert or Foundation by Asimov.
有很多值得推荐的内容，但我想说人们应该阅读弗兰克·赫伯特的《沙丘》或阿西莫夫的《基金会》。
If you haven't read those two things and you're a science fiction person, you really should.
如果你还没有读过这两本书并且你是一个科幻小说家，那么你真的应该读一下。
The world building is incredible.
世界建设令人难以置信。
I understand Tolkien and fantasy, but the science fiction side of it is those two books.
我了解托尔金和奇幻小说，但科幻小说的一面是这两本书。
Lenny: There's also a TV series of Foundation now, which I can say recommend absolutely.
Lenny：现在还有一部电视剧《基地》，我可以说绝对推荐。
But it's a beautiful show.
但这是一场美丽的表演。
Oji Udezue: Yeah, no. I haven't watched Foundation yet.
王子乌德泽：是的，不。我还没看过《基地》。
I just felt super weird watching it after reading it.
读完之后我只是觉得非常奇怪。
And I could only make it through three quarters of Dune.
我只能完成沙丘的四分之三。
Well one, but I will make it through them.
好吧，但我会挺过他们的。
I don't expect them...
我不指望他们...
The books are glorious.
这些书是辉煌的。
If you love prose, the books are, man, crazy.
如果你喜欢散文，那么这些书就是疯狂的。
But I will get through them eventually.
但我最终会克服它们。
Lenny: I've not actually read Dune, but the movie was incredible.
莱尼：我实际上没有读过《沙丘》，但这部电影非常棒。
I played the video game Dune where you're just mining spice all day and it's just stuck in my brain forever.
我玩了电子游戏《沙丘》，你整天都在开采香料，它永远留在我的脑海里。
Okay, next question.
好的，下一个问题。
What is a favorite interview question that you like to ask candidates that you're interviewing?
您最喜欢问正在面试的候选人的面试问题是什么？
Oji Udezue: I try to ask two.
Oji Udezue：我试着问两个。
I feel like it's going to give people a cheat sheet when I interview them.
我觉得当我采访人们时，它会给他们提供一份备忘单。
But I try to ask two questions.
但我尝试问两个问题。
So I'm not a person who does favorites, so it's hard for me to pick favorites.
所以我不是一个偏爱的人，所以我很难选出最喜欢的。
But I ask people to introduce themselves and I think it tells me a lot about them, how they tell about themselves, what they say about themselves and the content of it.
但我要求人们自我介绍，我认为这告诉了我很多关于他们的信息，他们如何讲述自己，他们对自己说了些什么以及内容。
I ask people about the things they think they're truly great at and then I ask people the things they think they need to learn.
我问人们他们认为自己真正擅长的事情，然后我问人们他们认为他们需要学习的事情。
The latter too is about their professional skill, their craft.
后者也与他们的专业技能、工艺有关。
I think it tells me a lot about how they communicate, it tells me a lot about how thoughtful they are.
我认为这告诉了我很多关于他们如何沟通的信息，它告诉我很多关于他们是多么体贴。
It tells me a lot about what they're proud of and what they lead into.
它告诉我很多关于他们引以为傲的事情以及他们的成就。
And those kinds of things are very important to me.
这些事情对我来说非常重要。
Lenny: What is a favorite product you recently discovered that you love?
Lenny：您最近发现最喜欢的产品是什么？
Oji Udezue: I have been optimizing my workspace a lot.
Oji Udezue：我一直在优化我的工作空间。
So I'm on a kick right now where I use Windows.
所以我现在对使用 Windows 很感兴趣。
I was in the Windows PM and I still have my Windows box.
我当时是 Windows PM，但我仍然保留着我的 Windows 盒子。
But a lot of people, we use Mac at work and I've used Mac for the last few years.
但很多人在工作中使用 Mac，我过去几年也一直使用 Mac。
So even though I switched between them, I've spent a lot more time on Mac and my Windows experience is completely optimized.
因此，即使我在它们之间切换，我在 Mac 上花费了更多的时间，并且我的 Windows 体验得到了完全优化。
It is perfect.
这是完美的。
But Mac, I'm like the Windowing sucks, there's all these gaps I see.
但是Mac，我觉得窗口很糟糕，我看到了所有这些差距。
So I've been trying to figure out how to dial in my Mac experience.
所以我一直在尝试弄清楚如何拨入我的 Mac 体验。
Oji Udezue: I hate the activity monitor, sucks.
Oji Udezue：我讨厌活动监视器，很糟糕。
What's a replacement?
什么是替代品？
The sound.
声音。
It doesn't support sound through HDMI or sound through...
它不支持 HDMI 声音或声音...
I don't know, just some weird setup.
我不知道，只是一些奇怪的设置。
So I've been optimizing that.
所以我一直在优化它。
One particular product that I like in the context of that is Unlocks.
在这方面我特别喜欢的一款产品是 Unlocks。
It's one man product that allows me to just look at my phone and log into my Mac when I walk up and then locks it when I walk away.
这是一款单人产品，当我走过去时，我只需看一下手机即可登录 Mac，然后在走开时将其锁定。
And it'll actually detect my proximity.
它实际上会检测到我的接近程度。
So it'll start the login process while I get close.
所以当我接近时它会启动登录过程。
I think that's incredible and I feel like it improves my productivity.
我认为这太不可思议了，我觉得它提高了我的生产力。
Lenny: Very cool.
莱尼：非常酷。
Sounds like a lot of haterade for Macs over here.
听起来这里对 Mac 有很多仇恨。
Oji Udezue: Well, for someone who uses it a lot, no, I think pros and cons.
Oji Udezue：嗯，对于经常使用它的人来说，不，我认为有利有弊。
I'm no longer paid by Microsoft, so there are things I don't like.
微软不再向我支付报酬，所以有些事情是我不喜欢的。
But there are also things that the Mac isn't perfect either.
但 Mac 也有一些并不完美的地方。
Lenny: Yeah, indeed.
莱尼：是的，确实如此。
What is a favorite life motto that you repeat to yourself or share with other people, either in work or in life that you find valuable?
在工作或生活中，您认为最有价值的、对自己重复或与他人分享的最喜欢的人生格言是什么？
Oji Udezue: I've taken to saying that there's more knowledge outside my head than inside it.
Oji Udezue：我常说，我头脑之外的知识比头脑里的知识多。
And this is a plea for curiosity.
这是对好奇心的恳求。
I have three main things that are my North Star personally.
我个人有三件主要的事情是我的北极星。
Obviously when I say personally, I mean everything professionally.
显然，当我说个人时，我指的是专业的一切。
Which is originality, curiosity, and wisdom.
这就是原创性、好奇心和智慧。
And so this thing about there's more knowledge outside my head than inside my head is a plea for curiosity, it's a plea for skepticism.
因此，关于我头脑之外的知识比我头脑中的知识更多，这是对好奇心的恳求，这是对怀疑主义的恳求。
It's a plea to be humble about what you know, no matter how old you are, about the world around you, and always be listening for more.
这是一个请求，无论你多大，对你周围的世界都保持谦虚的态度，并始终倾听更多信息。
Even when you know something, let other people speak because they might add 10% more to the 90% you know.
即使你知道一些事情，也要让其他人发言，因为他们可能会在你知道的 90% 的基础上增加 10%。
And so being an active listener is very important.
因此，成为一名积极的倾听者非常重要。
Lenny: Beautiful.
莱尼：美丽。
Last question, you are from Nigeria.
最后一个问题，你来自尼日利亚。
What is a Nigerian food that you think people need to find and get ASAP?
您认为人们需要尽快找到并获得的尼日利亚食品是什么？
Oji Udezue: I'll recommend two, depending on how familiar you are.
Oji Udezue：我会推荐两个，具体取决于您的熟悉程度。
So if you've never had fried plantain with beef stew-
所以如果你从来没有吃过炒车前草炖牛肉-
Oji Udezue: ...
王子乌德泽：……
then you should stop what you're doing, stop work, whatever you're doing, find your next Nigerian friend and go get some, okay?
那么你应该停止你正在做的事情，停止工作，无论你在做什么，找到你的下一个尼日利亚朋友，去买一些，好吗？
This is the food that most Nigerians will basically trade years of life to have access to, okay.
这是大多数尼日利亚人基本上要用几年的生命才能获得的食物，好吧。
So that's what I would say.
这就是我要说的。
And then the second thing is if you want to be in the in club in Nija, as we call it, you got to try pepper soup.
第二件事是，如果你想加入我们所说的 Nija 俱乐部，你必须尝试胡椒汤。
Oji Udezue: Now, if you all are not into spicy stuff, I'm sorry, the door is close to you.
Oji Udezue：现在，如果你们都不喜欢辛辣的东西，我很抱歉，门就在你们身边。
But pepper soup is really...
不过胡椒汤确实...
And it is amazing.
这真是太神奇了。
It'll make you sweat, but it's delicious and you should give it a shot.
它会让你出汗，但它很美味，你应该尝试一下。
Lenny: Oji, I think we've solved many people's sharp problems.
莱尼：王子，我想我们已经解决了很多人的尖锐问题。
I really appreciate you making time being here.
我真的很感谢你抽出时间来到这里。
Two final questions.
最后两个问题。
Where can folks find you online if they want to reach out?
如果人们想联系您，可以在哪里找到您？
And how can listeners be useful to you?
听众如何对你有用？
Oji Udezue: I publish on Substack when I have time, you should check it out.
Oji Udezue：我有时间就会在 Substack 上发布，你应该看看。
It's usually all about things that are beneath the surface.
通常都是关于表面之下的事情。
What's behind the thing.
事情的背后是什么。
I believe that's how you'll find it.
我相信你会找到它的。
I'm on Twitter as well, so you can follow me because I will talk about products.
我也在 Twitter 上，所以你可以关注我，因为我会谈论产品。
How you can be useful to me is go follow me on Twitter, sign up for updates on the book.
你对我有用的方法是在 Twitter 上关注我，注册以获取本书的更新。
If you do, I will draw from that audience to help name the book, to help design the cover for the book.
如果你这样做，我会从那些观众中抽选来帮助命名这本书，帮助设计这本书的封面。
The book is intended to have a freemium because I want this book to be available to people in Africa and India, across the world.
这本书的目的是免费增值，因为我希望非洲和印度以及世界各地的人们都可以使用这本书。
So there'll be a free version of it and there'll be premium versions with more tools, more help, and maybe even interviews with luminaries that you care and love as well.
因此，它将有一个免费版本，也会有高级版本，其中包含更多工具、更多帮助，甚至可能还采访您关心和喜爱的名人。
And so hopefully that will fund the free side of it as well.
希望这也能为它的免费部分提供资金。
So come in, become part of the party, maybe join a pre-read, an early draft read.
所以进来吧，成为聚会的一员，也许可以参加预读，早期的草稿阅读。
That is the best way you can help.
这是您能提供帮助的最佳方式。
So this is a call to all PMs and people of goodwill.
因此，这是对所有总理和善意人士的呼吁。
Lenny: Amazing.
莱尼：太棒了。
What a great answer to that question.
这个问题的答案真是太好了。
I'm going to go get some pepper soup and some plantain beef meals.
我要去买一些胡椒汤和一些车前草牛肉饭。
Thank you so much for being here, and I'm going to go get some food.
非常感谢你来到这里，我要去买些食物了。
Oji Udezue: All right.
王子乌德泽：好吧。
Thank you, Lenny.
谢谢你，莱尼。
It was super enjoyable and love hanging out and God speed.
这是超级愉快和喜欢闲逛和上帝的速度。
Bye, everyone.: Thank you so much for listening.
再见，大家：非常感谢您的聆听。
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如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcast、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。
Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.
另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。
You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.
您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。
See you in the next episode.
下一集见。