The happiness and pain of product management | Noam Lovinsky (Grammarly, FB, Thumbtack, YT)

Lenny: You've worked at so many great companies.

莱尼：你曾在很多伟大的公司工作过。

At YouTube, when you joined, my understanding is YouTube was losing a lot of money.

在 YouTube，当你加入时，我的理解是 YouTube 损失了很多钱。

Noam Lovinsky: There were many times where Google leadership reconsidered the acquisition and, "Should we sell YouTube?" if you can believe it or not.

诺姆·洛文斯基：谷歌领导层多次重新考虑收购，“我们应该出售 YouTube 吗？”不管你信不信。

Lenny: At Thumbtack, it looks like you went from 1 to -1 and then back to 1.

Lenny：在 Thumbtack，看起来你从 1 到 -1，然后又回到 1。

Noam Lovinsky: I remember in a board meeting, the new model really started to show legs and one of the board members, Brian Schreier at Sequoia, said it was the prettiest smile graph that he had ever seen.

诺姆·洛文斯基（Noam Lovinsky）：我记得在一次董事会会议上，新模型真正开始展示腿，董事会成员之一，红杉资本的布莱恩·施赖尔（Brian Schreier）说，这是他见过的最漂亮的微笑图。

Lenny: When you were at Facebook, you built what is called the New Product Experimentation team trying to create a startup within a startup.

Lenny：当你在 Facebook 时，你建立了所谓的新产品实验团队，试图在初创公司中创建一家初创公司。

Noam Lovinsky: You're thinking on a different time horizon.

诺姆·洛文斯基：你在不同的时间范围内思考。

If you're a large organization and you do some performance management process twice a year and you're 0 to 1 incubator, you've already killed it.

如果你是一个大型组织，并且每年执行两次绩效管理流程，并且你是 0 到 1 的孵化器，那么你已经杀死了它。

It's the wrong incentive.

这是错误的激励。

Lenny: As the chief product officer of Grammarly, I'm curious what word you most often misspelled?

Lenny：作为 Grammarly 的首席产品官，我很好奇你最常拼错哪个单词？

Noam Lovinsky: T-E-H.

诺姆·洛文斯基：T-E-H。

Yeah, exactly.

是的，完全正确。

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

是啊，是啊，是啊。

Oh man.: Today my guest is Noam Lovinsky.

天啊：今天我的客人是诺姆·洛文斯基。

Noam is currently chief product officer at Grammarly.

诺姆目前担任 Grammarly 的首席产品官。

Previously, he was an early PM at YouTube where he spent five years leading the creator product experience and then the broader YouTube consumer product experience.

此前，他是 YouTube 的早期产品经理，花了五年时间领导创作者产品体验，然后领导更广泛的 YouTube 消费者产品体验。

He then went on to take on the chief product officer role at Thumbtack, which involved helping the company reignite growth after a downturn caused by some changes Google made in SEO.

随后，他继续担任 Thumbtack 的首席产品官，帮助该公司在谷歌在 SEO 方面做出的一些改变导致经济低迷后重新实现增长。

He then went on to Facebook where he created the New Product Experimentation team whose charter was to incubate big new ideas protected from the larger Facebook org.

然后，他去了 Facebook，在那里他创建了新产品实验团队，其职责是孵化不受更大 Facebook 组织影响的重大新想法。

Oh man.: Noam has such a unique set of experiences taking products from 0 to 1, from -1 to 1, from 1 to 100, and even starting his own companies.

噢，伙计：诺姆拥有一套独特的经验，将产品从 0 到 1、从 -1 到 1、从 1 到 100，甚至创办了自己的公司。

He's never really been on a podcast before and he rarely ever tweets or post anything online, which we actually talk about.

他以前从未真正上过播客，也很少在网上发推文或发布任何内容，而我们实际上谈论过这些。

In our conversation, we walk through the lessons that he's learned through his amazing career at YouTube, Facebook, Thumbtack, and at Grammarly.

在我们的谈话中，我们回顾了他在 YouTube、Facebook、Thumbtack 和 Grammarly 的辉煌职业生涯中学到的经验教训。

We talk about when it makes sense to kill your project at a company, when it makes sense to ask to be layered at a company, why you should be keeping a nose out for which products matter most at a business and to find those products, why you need to diversify your growth channels at your business, why you should be finding work that is going to most stretch you to help you advance in your career, a bunch of advice for creating space for innovation within a large company and so much more.

我们谈论什么时候应该终止你在公司的项目，什么时候要求在公司进行分层，为什么你应该留意哪些产品对企业最重要并找到这些产品，为什么你需要使你的业务增长渠道多样化，为什么你应该找到最能拓展你的工作来帮助你在职业生涯中取得进步，以及在大公司内创造创新空间的一系列建议等等。

Noam is such a gem and I'm really excited to share his wisdom with you.

诺姆是一位瑰宝，我很高兴与您分享他的智慧。

Oh man.: If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow this podcast in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube.

天哪。：如果您喜欢这个播客，请不要忘记在您最喜欢的播客应用程序或 YouTube 中订阅并关注这个播客。

It's the best way to avoid missing feature episodes and it helps the podcast tremendously.

这是避免错过专题节目的最佳方式，并且对播客有很大帮助。

With that, I bring you Noam Lovinsky after a short word from our sponsors.

在我们的赞助商简短致辞后，我为您带来了诺姆·洛文斯基 (Noam Lovinsky)。

Oh man.: This episode is brought to you by Whimsical, the iterative product workspace.

天哪。：这一集是由迭代产品工作区 Whimsical 为您带来的。

Whimsical helps product managers build clarity and shared understanding faster with tools designed for solving product challenges.

Whimsical 利用专为解决产品挑战而设计的工具，帮助产品经理更快地建立清晰的思路并达成共识。

With Whimsical, you can easily explore new concepts using drag and drop wireframe and diagram components, create rich product briefs that show and sell your thinking, and keep your team aligned with one source of truth for all of your build requirements.

借助 Whimsical，您可以使用拖放线框和图表组件轻松探索新概念，创建丰富的产品简介来展示和推销您的想法，并使您的团队与满足您所有构建需求的单一事实来源保持一致。

Whimsical also has a library of easy to use templates from product leaders like myself, including a project proposal one pager and a go-to market worksheet.

Whimsical 还拥有一个由像我这样的产品领导者提供的易于使用的模板库，其中包括项目提案一页纸和进入市场工作表。

Give them a try and see how fast and easy it is to build clarity with Whimsical.

尝试一下，看看使用 Whimsical 建立清晰度有多快、有多容易。

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在 Whimsical.com/lenny 上注册，即可享受 Whimsical Pro 计划 20% 的折扣。

That's whimsical.com/lenny.

那是whimsical.com/lenny。

Oh man.: This episode is brought to you by Vanta.

天哪。：这一集是 Vanta 为您带来的。

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现在，您可以使用单一平台 Vanta 评估风险、确保客户信任并自动实现 SOC 2、ISO 27001、HIPAA 等合规性。

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Vanta 市场领先的信任管理平台可帮助您持续监控合规性以及报告和跟踪风险。

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加入数千家使用 Vanta 自动化证据收集、统一风险管理和简化安全审查的全球公司行列。

Get $1,000 off Vanta when you go to vanta.com/lenny.

访问vanta.com/lenny，可享受 Vanta 立减 1,000 美元的优惠。

That's V-A-N-T-A.com/lenny.

那是 V-A-N-T-A.com/lenny。

Oh man.: Noam, thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast.

噢，伙计：诺姆，非常感谢你来到这里，欢迎来到播客。

Lenny: It's absolutely my pleasure.

莱尼：这绝对是我的荣幸。

I've heard so many great things about you from so many people.

我从很多人那里听到了很多关于你的好消息。

I think you're friends with a lot of guests that have been on this podcast.

我想你和很多来过这个播客的嘉宾都是朋友。

Something that I find really interesting about you and really respect about you is that you've worked at so many great companies and you've done so many big things in your career, but you barely ever tweet.

我觉得你真正有趣并且真正尊重你的一点是，你曾在很多伟大的公司工作过，在你的职业生涯中做过很多大事，但你几乎从不发推文。

You don't have a newsletter.

你没有时事通讯。

I don't see many things on LinkedIn.

我在 LinkedIn 上看不到太多东西。

I don't think you've even been on a podcast before.

我认为您以前从未上过播客。

I think the only evidence I can find that you exist is you have this YouTube channel that's just like you go-karting and kids and people wishing you a happy birthday.

我认为我能找到的你存在的唯一证据就是你有这个 YouTube 频道，就像你的卡丁车和孩子们以及祝你生日快乐的人们一样。

Noam Lovinsky: Oh gosh, I should go monitor that.

诺姆·洛文斯基：哦天哪，我应该去监控一下。

I forgot about that.

我忘了那件事了。

Lenny: You might want to go find it now.

莱尼：你可能现在就想去找它。

Noam Lovinsky: Yeah, yeah, yeah that's funny.

诺姆·洛文斯基：是的，是的，是的，这很有趣。

Yeah, it's funny.

是的，这很有趣。

I think about that a lot, like am I doing something wrong?

我经常想这个问题，我是不是做错了什么？

Should I be putting more effort in that?

我应该在这方面付出更多的努力吗？

I mean, it's funny that you mentioned newsletter.

我的意思是，你提到时事通讯很有趣。

I spend a lot of time with the Substack team's.

我花了很多时间与 Substack 团队一起工作。

I've been a very active advisor there.

我一直是那里非常活跃的顾问。

The team is fantastic by the way.

顺便说一下，这个团队非常棒。

And I think about it.

我想了一下。

Am I doing something wrong in my career by not doing that?

如果我不这样做，我的职业生涯是否做错了什么？

But just to be honest, it doesn't come authentically to me.

但老实说，这对我来说并不真实。

It doesn't come naturally to me.

这对我来说并不自然。

I get really focused on the thing that I'm working on and get really deep in the thing that I am working on and I have a hard time kind of multitasking a lot outside of that to be totally honest.

我非常专注于我正在做的事情，并且非常深入地从事我正在做的事情，说实话，我很难同时处理很多任务。

The way that I kind of get to know the industry and other teams or whatnot is just through working with people.

我了解这个行业和其他团队或其他什么的方式就是通过与人合作。

Noam Lovinsky: I'm not a very big networker.

诺姆·洛文斯基：我不是一个非常热衷于网络的人。

I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with that.

我并不是说这有什么问题。

I wish I were better at that.

我希望我在这方面做得更好。

I get to know people by doing work with them, by helping them.

我通过与人一起工作、帮助他们来了解他们。

And it doesn't necessarily scale in the same way that Twitter does, but it's served me well so far and it's more kind of authentic and it's what comes more natural to me.

它不一定像 Twitter 那样扩展，但到目前为止它对我很有帮助，而且它更真实，对我来说更自然。

And so that's how I do it.

我就是这么做的。

So I'm doing a lot of coffees.

所以我做了很多咖啡。

I'm meeting people that way.

我就是这样认识人的。

I'm not doing a lot of tweeting or writing of newsletters.

我不会发很多推文或撰写时事通讯。

Maybe one day, but that's not me today.

也许有一天，但今天不是我。

Lenny: So I think this is an awesome example of you can be incredibly successful as a product manager and as anyone in tech not investing time posting online.

莱尼：所以我认为这是一个很棒的例子，作为一名产品经理和任何一个不花时间在网上发帖的技术人员，你都可以取得令人难以置信的成功。

I am going to incriminate myself here, but I feel like the advice I always share with people is the best people are not spending time tweeting and talking online and sharing on LinkedIn.

我要在这里自证其罪，但我觉得我总是与人们分享的建议是最好的，人们不要花时间发推文、在线交谈和在 LinkedIn 上分享。

They're just doing the work.

他们只是在做工作。

They don't have time for that sort of thing.

他们没有时间做那种事。

And I think you're a great example of that.

我认为你就是一个很好的例子。

Is there anything along those lines that you share with folks that are just like, "Hey, should I be investing time here?"

您是否可以与人们分享类似的内容，例如“嘿，我应该在这里投入时间吗？”

Noam Lovinsky: I think everyone can chart their own path and has a way that is sort of authentic to them and leans on their strengths.

诺姆·洛文斯基（Noam Lovinsky）：我认为每个人都可以规划自己的道路，并且有一种对他们来说真实且依靠自己优势的方式。

What I often coach people is, do what you like.

我经常指导人们的是，做你喜欢做的事。

You're generally going to be a lot better at the things that really fill you up that really get you excited.

一般来说，你会在那些真正让你感到充实、真正让你兴奋的事情上做得更好。

Life is short.

生命是短暂的。

There's so many things to be doing out there.

那里有很多事情要做。

We're so lucky.

我们太幸运了。

The number of interesting waves of technology that I've experienced, it just makes me feel like it's going to keep happening for a long time.

我经历过的许多有趣的技术浪潮，让我觉得它会持续发生很长一段时间。

We're very fortunate to be born in the time that we are and have the opportunities that we are.

我们很幸运能够出生在现在的时代并拥有现在的机会。

So why spend your time doing something that doesn't feel good because you think that it might lead to some success, where if you lean on what's authentic to you and what makes you happy, chances are you're going to be one of the best people at those things?

那么，为什么要花时间做一些感觉不好的事情，因为你认为这可能会带来一些成功，如果你依靠对你来说真实的、让你快乐的事情，那么你很可能会成为这些事情上最优秀的人之一呢？

Lenny: I love that advice.

莱尼：我喜欢这个建议。

And I think it's so important.

我认为这非常重要。

I think there's a lot of pressure on people too.

我认为人们的压力也很大。

"I need to do this, I need to do that."

“我需要做这个，我需要做那个。”

Lenny: "I need to tweet, I need to share content to be successful." This comes up a lot in this podcast, that the more you could just stick close to what gives you energy and what you enjoy doing, oftentimes that leads to things you wouldn't expect in a lot of success.

莱尼：“我需要发推文，我需要分享内容才能成功。”这个播客中经常提到这一点，即你越能坚持那些给你能量和你喜欢做的事情，通常会带来你意想不到的成功。

Lenny: Speaking of that, looking at your career arc, I noticed a really interesting pattern and a really diverse set of experiences.

莱尼：说到这一点，看看你的职业生涯，我注意到一个非常有趣的模式和一系列非常多样化的经历。

So just kind of talking through places you've been.

所以只是谈谈你去过的地方。

At Facebook, you worked on 0 to 1 stuff.

在 Facebook，你从事的是 0 到 1 的工作。

At YouTube, the way I see it as you almost went from -1 to 1.

在 YouTube，我的看法是你几乎从 -1 变成了 1。

At Thumbtack, it looks like you went from 1 to -1 and then back to 1.

在 Thumbtack 中，看起来您从 1 变为 -1，然后又回到 1。

So it's like a really unique turnaround story.

所以这就像一个非常独特的逆转故事。

And then with Grammarly it feels like it's like, I don't know, 1 or I don't know, 5 to 100, or wherever you end up taking it.

然后，对于 Grammarly，感觉就像是，我不知道，1 或我不知道，5 到 100，或者无论你最终采取什么。

So I thought it'd be fun to talk through each of these experiences because they're such unique approaches or such unique experiences and see what lessons and wisdom we can extract from your journey.

因此，我认为谈论这些经历中的每一个都会很有趣，因为它们是如此独特的方法或如此独特的经历，看看我们可以从你的旅程中汲取哪些经验教训和智慧。

Lenny: Okay, sweet.

莱尼：好的，亲爱的。

So I'm thinking reverse chronologically, we start with YouTube, which the way I see it is it's kind of -1 to 1.

所以我按照时间顺序逆向思考，我们从 YouTube 开始，我认为它是-1 到 1 的关系。

When you join, my understanding is YouTube was losing a lot of money.

当你加入时，我的理解是 YouTube 损失了很多钱。

When you left, they were not losing money.

当你离开时，他们并没有赔钱。

And I was actually just looking, they're valued apparently at $200 billion today, YouTube as a business.

我实际上只是在观察，YouTube 作为一项业务，如今的估值显然已达 2000 亿美元。

I know you haven't been there for a while, but great work.

我知道你有一段时间没来了，但干得很好。

What lessons did you take away from that journey?

您从那次旅程中吸取了哪些教训？

What stories come to mind from that part of your career that might be helpful to people?

在您职业生涯的这一部分中，您想到的哪些故事可能对人们有帮助？

Noam Lovinsky: Maybe first to start looking with why hop around these experiences.

诺姆·洛文斯基：也许首先要开始思考为什么要跳过这些体验。

I always tell people I feel like I'm an IC trapped in a manager's body sometimes.

我总是告诉人们，有时我感觉自己就像一个被困在经理身体里的IC。

Fundamentally, I like to build, that's why I do this.

从根本上来说，我喜欢构建，这就是我这样做的原因。

I like to make things.

我喜欢做东西。

And so sometimes the more fun way to make things is to start something and sometimes the better way to make things in the situation that I'm in is to try to support teams and lead through teams.

因此，有时更有趣的做事方式是开始做某事，有时在我所处的情况下更好的做事方式是尝试支持团队并领导团队。

Noam Lovinsky: And so I joined YouTube through an acquisition of a company I started.

诺姆·洛文斯基：所以我通过收购我创办的一家公司加入了 YouTube。

In the beginning, what I was doing there is just rebuilding that product on Google infrastructure and for YouTube customers.

一开始，我所做的只是在 Google 基础设施上为 YouTube 客户重建该产品。

And maybe the first lesson was actually to look around at what the rest of the team was doing and be really honest and open about the relative priority of the thing that you're working on even if it might lead to your project getting canceled.

也许第一课实际上是环顾团队其他成员正在做的事情，并且对您正在做的事情的相对优先级保持诚实和开放，即使这可能会导致您的项目被取消。

Noam Lovinsky: So one of the things that I remember doing really on is actually talking to the leadership team and being like, "I don't think we should be putting 50 engineers on this project.

Noam Lovinsky：所以我记得真正做过的一件事实际上是与领导团队交谈，“我认为我们不应该在这个项目上投入 50 名工程师。

Looking at the rest of the roadmap and the rest of the priorities, excuse me, I think this team would likely be better served elsewhere." Even though that was likely negotiating my way out of a job in month three, I don't know, I kind of felt like that was the right thing for the team and for the business.

看看路线图的其余部分和优先事项，对不起，我认为这个团队在其他地方可能会得到更好的服务。”尽管这很可能让我在第三个月失去工作，但我不知道，我觉得这对团队和业务来说是正确的事情。

Noam Lovinsky: And then that started a very interesting journey because from there, basically the leadership was like, "You're right.

诺姆·洛文斯基：然后就开始了一段非常有趣的旅程，因为从那时起，领导层基本上就说，“你是对的。

We're going to wind that down and build some of those features into the existing product.

我们将逐步结束这一过程，并将其中一些功能构建到现有产品中。

And now you, you come and lead this focus area, we're calling the creator focus area." So I went from basically rebuilding the product that our startup had built to leading one of the three focus areas at YouTube.

现在你来领导这个焦点领域，我们称之为创造者焦点领域。”因此，我从基本上重建我们初创公司打造的产品，到领导 YouTube 的三个重点领域之一。

There was the viewer team, the creator team, and the advertiser team.

有观众团队、创作者团队和广告商团队。

And Hunter Walk, who's amazing, was leading the viewer team.

令人惊叹的亨特·沃克（Hunter Walk）带领着观众队伍。

And Shishir Mehrotra, who's also very amazing, was leading the advertising team.

Shishir Mehrotra 领导着广告团队，他也非常出色。

Noam Lovinsky: There was me.

诺姆·洛文斯基：有我。

I was sort of like 29-year-old startupy guy working with these guys who were awesome.

我有点像一个 29 岁的创业者，和这些很棒的人一起工作。

And YouTube in general, and continues to be, an incredible team.

总的来说，YouTube 仍然是一支令人难以置信的团队。

And so I think that was a first really good lesson.

所以我认为这是第一堂非常好的课。

That in the right organizations, even in large organizations, advocate for what's best for the team, advocate for what's best for the organization even if that means that it puts you at a particular difficult moment.

在正确的组织中，即使是在大型组织中，倡导对团队最有利的事情，倡导对组织最有利的事情，即使这意味着它会让你处于一个特定的困难时刻。

If it is a healthy team that rewards those sorts of decisions and actions, good things will happen.

如果一个健康的团队奖励这些决策和行动，那么好事就会发生。

If it's not, that's good to know too.

如果不是，也很高兴知道。

That's good to know early.

早点知道就好了

So that's one thing that comes to mind.

这是我想到的一件事。

Noam Lovinsky: Maybe one other I would say atypical career choice that I made shortly thereafter is then when I was put in that role, I really struggled in that role.

诺姆·洛文斯基：也许我会说，我此后不久做出的非典型职业选择是，当我担任那个角色时，我真的很挣扎。

I was reporting to the CEO at the time, a guy named Salar Kamangar, who's also awesome, Google's 6th employee and just learned a ton from him, like an incredible strategic thinker.

我当时向首席执行官汇报工作，他是一位名叫 Salar Kamangar 的人，他也很棒，是 Google 的第六名员工，刚刚从他那里学到了很多东西，就像一位令人难以置信的战略思想家。

But he was asking me questions that I felt like they were from a different planet.

但他问我的问题让我觉得他们来自不同的星球。

I was like, I didn't know what they meant and he just thought in a different way, a different level or different scale and that's still something that I was learning.

我当时想，我不知道他们的意思，他只是以不同的方式、不同的水平或不同的规模思考，这仍然是我正在学习的东西。

Eventually I figured it out, but I was really struggling in that moment.

最终我明白了，但那一刻我真的很挣扎。

I had a really good relationship with both Hunter and Shishir and they really helped me through that.

我与亨特和希希尔的关系都非常好，他们确实帮助我度过了这段时间。

And eventually, I went to Salar and said, "Hey, I think I should actually report to Hunter.

最终，我去了撒拉尔并说：“嘿，我想我实际上应该向亨特汇报。

I think this would work better if we kind of combined the organizations this way and then we divided and conquered this way."

我认为，如果我们以这种方式将组织结合起来，然后以这种方式进行划分和征服，效果会更好。”

Noam Lovinsky: And again, very atypical, no one has ever come to me in my career and said, "I would like you to layer me in this other person." But in that moment I was just like, "This is how I will do better work.

诺姆·洛文斯基：再说一遍，非常不典型，在我的职业生涯中，没有人来找我说：“我希望你把我放在另一个人身上。”但在那一刻我就想，“这就是我能做得更好的方法。

This is how I will get better support.

这样我才能获得更好的支持。

I will be happier and more productive and it'll be better for the team." And you know what?

我会更快乐、更有成效，这对球队来说也会更好。”你知道吗？

For me anyway, I was right.

无论如何，对我来说，我是对的。

We made that change.

我们做出了这样的改变。

Hunter was a fantastic manager and support at YouTube.

亨特是 YouTube 一位出色的经理和支持者。

I learned a ton, grew a lot.

我学到了很多，成长了很多。

And then eventually when he moved on, Shishir took over the organization and then I moved into the viewer part of the organization, which is where I spent the rest of my time there, which was leading and supporting the viewer PM team at YouTube.

最终，当他离开时，Shishir 接管了该组织，然后我进入了该组织的观众部分，我在那里度过了余下的时间，领导和支持 YouTube 的观众 PM 团队。

Lenny: These stories are amazing.

莱尼：这些故事太棒了。

It connects to your point that you're kind of an, I see, an inner child I see, where you keep trying to kill your career by accident.

这与你的观点有关，我认为，你是一个内心的孩子，你总是试图意外地扼杀你的职业生涯。

Like, "Now, let's kill this project I'm working on.

就像，“现在，让我们终止我正在做的这个项目。

I'm going to demote myself a little bit." But clearly it's worked out.

我要把自己降级一点。”但显然它已经解决了。

Is there anything that you saw that gave you that confidence that, "This is actually going to be okay"?

有没有什么东西让你看到让你有信心“这实际上会没事的”？

Because again, people don't normally think this is how you get ahead in your career, is you kill your team and you layer yourself.

因为，人们通常不会认为这就是你在职业生涯中取得进步的方式，就是你杀死你的团队，然后你自己分层。

Noam Lovinsky: Yeah, I mean I think having a broader view of the company strategy, having an instinct for what we should be doing and why and how I might prioritize all of these investments if I were given the opportunity to do that, I think internalizing that and understanding that and then trying to align whatever is under your influence towards that overall goal is very helpful and made me feel like, "I'm pretty confident this is going to be okay because it will lead to better results for the organization given what we're trying to do.

诺姆·洛文斯基：是的，我的意思是，我认为对公司战略有更广泛的看法，对我们应该做什么以及为什么以及如何优先考虑所有这些投资有直觉，如果我有机会这样做的话，我认为内化这一点并理解这一点，然后努力将你影响下的一切与总体目标结合起来是非常有帮助的，让我觉得，“我非常有信心这会没问题，因为考虑到我们正在努力做的事情，这将为组织带来更好的结果。

And so as long as I'm trying to push decisions or actions that actually lead to better results, if it's a healthy culture and organization, I should be okay."

因此，只要我努力推动决策或行动真正带来更好的结果，如果这是一个健康的文化和组织，我应该没问题。”

Noam Lovinsky: I think that the other thing is, just over the years, I got extremely lucky.

诺姆·洛文斯基：我认为另一件事是，这些年来，我非常幸运。

The first job that I got out of school was an incredible group of people and it gave me a nose for talent.

我毕业后找到的第一份工作是一群令人难以置信的人，它让我具有了发现人才的敏锐嗅觉。

It gave me a nose for what great feels like and what a high functioning team feels like.

它让我感受到了伟大的感觉以及高效团队的感觉。

It's hard to know that without experiencing that.

如果没有经历过这一点，很难知道这一点。

And so in the moments, YouTube was also one of those teams, Grammarly is one of those teams, Thumbtack was one of those teams.

因此，当时 YouTube 也是这些团队之一，Grammarly 是这些团队之一，Thumbtack 也是这些团队之一。

Being able to sniff that out when you're trying to choose the next team is very important.

当你尝试选择下一支球队时能够嗅出这一点非常重要。

But I think that's another thing that gave me confidence.

但我认为这是另一件事给了我信心。

I learned these people well enough, Hunter, Shishir, et cetera, to have the instinct that the right thing will happen, like this will be better for me and the broader team.

我对亨特、希希尔等人了解得足够深入，能够直觉地知道正确的事情将会发生，就像这对我和更广泛的团队来说会更好。

Lenny: Got it.

莱尼：明白了。

So the key there is just you have to trust that the team around you is good enough, that you're not going to be pushed off into a corner.

所以关键是你必须相信你周围的团队足够好，你不会被逼到墙角。

I think you made a really profound point here that a lot of people don't get about the job of a product leader and a product manager, that a big part of your job is to think about what is best for the business and work backwards from that.

我认为你在这里提出了一个非常深刻的观点，很多人不了解产品领导者和产品经理的工作，你工作的很大一部分是思考什么对业务最有利，并从中逆向工作。

Not necessarily what's the best thing for the user is the highest priority, not necessarily what's the best thing for my team and how do I hit the goals that I'm obsessed with.

对用户来说最好的事情不一定是最高优先级，对我的团队来说最好的事情不一定是最好的事情以及如何实现我所痴迷的目标。

It's what is going to be best for the business broadly and then make decisions there.

这对整个业务来说是最好的，然后在那里做出决策。

Is there anything more you can say there about just how powerful that is as a way of thinking about prioritization and decisions as a product manager?

对于作为产品经理思考优先级和决策的方式有多么强大，您还有什么可以说的吗？

Noam Lovinsky: Yeah, it's a great question.

诺姆·洛文斯基：是的，这是一个很好的问题。

I mean, I think ideally, things that are best for the customer, there's high overlap with that with things that are best for the business, but not always, right?

我的意思是，我认为理想情况下，对客户最有利的事情与对业务最有利的事情有很高的重叠度，但并非总是如此，对吧？

And I think figuring out some principles that help guide those sorts of conflicts can be really, really helpful.

我认为找出一些有助于指导此类冲突的原则确实非常有帮助。

At Thumbtack, we had principles about which sides of the marketplace we wanted to serve in which order and when we serve Thumbtack.

在 Thumbtack，我们对于我们希望以何种顺序以及何时为 Thumbtack 服务的市场的哪一方制定了原则。

So it was customers first, pros second, and then Thumbtack last.

因此，客户第一，专业人士第二，最后是图钉。

And that's actually the first two...

这实际上是前两个......

Saying Thumbtack last is the easy thing to say.

最后说图钉是很容易说的事情。

Actually doing it in action I think is a very different thing.

我认为实际上在行动中这样做是一件非常不同的事情。

But that first one of like, should we...

但第一个类似的，我们应该...

Especially when you're starting a marketplace, as you know well, Lenny, supply is so critical.

尤其是当你开始建立一个市场时，莱尼，你很清楚，供应非常重要。

Many marketplaces live and die by the quality and liquidity and supply.

许多市场的生死存亡取决于质量、流动性和供应。

And so why would you focus on customers first and the Thumbtack perspective and supply are the pros, the people that you hire?

那么，为什么您要首先关注客户，而图钉观点和供应才是专业人士，您雇用的人呢？

Noam Lovinsky: Well, we always just felt that what the pros need from us is more customers.

诺姆·洛文斯基：嗯，我们一直觉得专业人士需要我们的是更多的客户。

What the pros need from us is high quality customers.

专业人士需要我们的是高质量的客户。

And so if we really try to make a great customer experience that attracts more customers, helps them find the right pros, provides the highest quality customers, then that will therefore be better for the pros.

因此，如果我们真的努力打造出色的客户体验，吸引更多客户，帮助他们找到合适的专业人士，提供最高质量的客户，那么这对专业人士来说会更好。

And so that's how we should prioritize.

这就是我们应该如何确定优先顺序。

If we do those things right, then the business will benefit, right?

如果我们做对了这些事情，那么企业就会受益，对吗？

And so doing things like raising prices because we think it's good for the business, even though it causes liquidity issues in the marketplace might be a little bit of a local maxima, locally optimizing rather than globally optimizing.

因此，提高价格之类的事情是因为我们认为这对业务有利，尽管它会导致市场流动性问题，但可能有点局部最大化，局部优化而不是全局优化。

So I think sometimes in these sorts of questions, trying to establish some set of guiding principles that help navigate some of these more ambiguous or thorny questions can be really helpful.

因此，我认为有时在此类问题中，尝试建立一套指导原则来帮助解决一些更模糊或棘手的问题确实很有帮助。

Lenny: I want to circle back to this first point you made, an experience you had convincing people that your first project shouldn't be something you work on.

莱尼：我想回顾一下你提出的第一点，你说服人们你的第一个项目不应该是你所从事的事情的经历。

How long do you stick with something that isn't going well and then decide, "Okay, let's convince people this is something I should move on from," versus you don't want to give up on a project quickly, you want to give it a shot?

你会坚持做一些进展不顺利的事情多久，然后决定，“好吧，让我们说服人们这是我应该继续前进的事情”，而不是你不想很快放弃一个项目，你想尝试一下？

Noam Lovinsky: I mean, look, I don't know that it's a perfect answer, but I think the reality is just that what kills most projects most early companies is stamina.

诺姆·洛文斯基：我的意思是，看，我不知道这是一个完美的答案，但我认为现实是，扼杀大多数早期公司的项目的是耐力。

And I think that we all need to work on being more resilient about kind of like, I remember at Thumbtack, Marco, the CEO, we used to say that it feels like we're running uphill and chewing glass, and you're kind of like, "That's right, we want to do that.

我认为我们都需要努力变得更有弹性，我记得在Thumbtack，首席执行官马可（Marco），我们过去常说，感觉就像我们在上坡跑步并咀嚼玻璃，然后你会说，“没错，我们想这样做。

That's good for us.

这对我们有好处。

Take our medicine." So you want to practice that sort of resiliency.

吃我们的药吧。”所以你想练习这种弹性。

But ultimately, I think that what starts to happen is you start to lose the stamina and you're just not bringing your best self to the situation.

但最终，我认为开始发生的事情是你开始失去耐力，而你只是没有在这种情况下发挥出最好的自己。

Noam Lovinsky: And so many of these things that are so high ambiguity where you don't know exactly what to build or you don't know exactly, you're not getting the signal you need or the feedback you need to be able to hone it in and know that you're doing something well.

诺姆·洛文斯基：很多事情都非常模糊，你不知道到底要构建什么，或者你不知道到底要做什么，你没有得到你需要的信号或反馈，你需要能够磨练它并知道你做得很好。

They require just an ungodly level of faith and stamina.

他们只需要不敬虔的信心和耐力。

And so that's sort of what I look to.

这就是我所期待的。

When you see a team that is motivated, that is building something like they're really excited about, I mean just the inertia, the quality, it's like a whole different game where when you see a team that's sort of down and out and they've really been hitting their head against the wall for a long time, sometimes they just need a change of scene, a change of pace, and they get to a much better situation.

当你看到一支充满动力的团队，他们正在建立一些他们真正兴奋的东西时，我的意思是惯性，质量，这就像一场完全不同的游戏，当你看到一支球队陷入困境，他们真的已经在很长一段时间里用头撞墙时，有时他们只需要改变场景，改变节奏，他们就会进入一个更好的境地。

So my honest answer is, yeah, it's the, when do you run out of steam is usually the question.

所以我诚实的回答是，是的，问题是，你什么时候会失去动力。

I think that happens usually like in the startup case, a lot of times before you run out money or these other things.

我认为这种情况通常会发生在初创公司的情况下，在你用完钱或其他东西之前很多次。

Lenny: We've talked about Thumbtack a couple of times now, so let's talk about that.

Lenny：我们已经讨论过 Thumbtack 好几次了，所以我们来谈谈这个吧。

I love this description of running a pill, chewing glass.

我喜欢这种关于吃药、咀嚼玻璃杯的描述。

My understanding is when you joined, things were going well, and then things started to go much less well, and then you helped turn things around.

我的理解是，当你加入时，事情进展顺利，然后事情开始变得不太顺利，然后你帮助扭转了局面。

Talk about that part of your journey and what you learned from that time.

谈谈你的那段旅程以及你从那段时间学到的东西。

Noam Lovinsky: Yeah, sure.

诺姆·洛文斯基：是的，当然。

Again, really fantastic team and really strong founders.

再说一次，非常出色的团队和非常强大的创始人。

That company was just on the bleeding edge of things like SEO and growing by SEO.

该公司正处于 SEO 等领域的前沿，并通过 SEO 不断发展。

It was one of the best organizations that are driving growth through that channel.

它是通过该渠道推动增长的最佳组织之一。

But I think a thing that I learned really early, which Lenny with your background you probably know as well, SEO is a sort of a live by the sword, die by the sword channel of growth.

但我认为我很早就学到了一件事情，莱尼（Lenny）以你的背景你可能也知道，SEO是一种靠剑生，靠剑死的增长渠道。

I think that one channel growth company is always a no-no. And so that's a little bit of what we had at Thumbtack.

我认为单一渠道增长公司始终是一个禁忌。这就是我们在 Thumbtack 所做的一些事情。

Noam Lovinsky: So it was funny, because I remember when I joined and Marco and I had an agreement where it's like, "Okay, I'm going to do my three months of onboarding, listening to our new leader inheriting a team." I've always gotten advice that that's what you should do.

诺姆·洛文斯基：这很有趣，因为我记得当我加入时，马可和我达成了一项协议，就像是，“好吧，我将进行三个月的入职培训，聆听我们的新领导者继承团队的声音。”我总是得到建议，那就是你应该做的。

And Marco being an entrepreneur and a hard running founder is like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah.

作为一名企业家和勤奋的创始人，马可就像是，“是啊，是啊，是啊。

Sure, sure." And then a month in, it's like, "All right, we got to run 2024 planning.

当然，当然。”然后一个月后，就像是，“好吧，我们必须进行 2024 年规划。

Go." Or not 2024, sorry, at the time it was.

走吧。”或者不是 2024 年，抱歉，当时是这样。

And yeah, in the early days when I was there, Thumbtack was seeing triple digit growth.

是的，在我刚进公司的初期，Thumbtack 就实现了三位数的增长。

Then we had a couple SEO hits that got us down to double-digit growth.

然后我们得到了一些 SEO 的成功，使我们实现了两位数的增长。

And then not too long after that, we were actually, for the first time in the company's history, seeing negative year-over-year growth and Google was just really coming down on our category as we were, by the way, trying to rebuild the whole product and change the monetization model and everything in between.

在那之后不久，我们实际上在公司历史上第一次看到了同比负增长，谷歌真的在我们的类别上表现不佳，顺便说一句，我们试图重建整个产品并改变货币化模式以及其间的一切。

Noam Lovinsky: So it was a really a tough moment of how much do we kind of spend to reinforce the old model while we're sort of building the new model, kind of changing the engine while the plane is flying.

诺姆·洛文斯基：所以这确实是一个艰难的时刻，我们要花多少钱来加固旧模型，同时我们正在构建新模型，在飞机飞行时更换发动机。

I think I remember in a board meeting, once we kind of turned that around and over time and also the new model really started to show legs and really started to work, one of the board members, Brian Schreier at Sequoia, said it was the prettiest smile graph that he had ever, ever seen.

我想我记得在一次董事会会议上，一旦我们扭转了局面，随着时间的推移，新模型真正开始展示腿并真正开始工作，董事会成员之一，红杉资本的布莱恩·施赖尔（Brian Schreier）说，这是他见过的最漂亮的微笑图。

It was obviously a really proud moment there.

这显然是一个非常值得骄傲的时刻。

Noam Lovinsky: But I think that the thing that I took away from that, which I tell PMs quite a bit, is growth masks all problems.

诺姆·洛文斯基（Noam Lovinsky）：但我认为我从中得到的教训是，增长掩盖了所有问题，我经常告诉产品经理们。

You don't really have a, I think, true understanding of what is working well and what is not working well when you have incredible growth.

我认为，当你取得令人难以置信的增长时，你并没有真正了解什么是有效的，什么是无效的。

YouTube was a great example of that.

YouTube 就是一个很好的例子。

And at Thumbtac, it had incredible growth for quite some time, but it was essentially burning through a lot of demand.

在 Thumbtac，它在相当长的一段时间内取得了令人难以置信的增长，但它本质上是在消耗大量的需求。

It was just dropping a lot of demand on the floor because there wasn't sufficient liquidity on the supply side to really meet that demand.

只是导致大量需求下降，因为供应方没有足够的流动性来真正满足需求。

The team knew and was trying to work on that problem, but it wasn't as urgent or high priority because you're having triple digit growth.

团队知道并正在努力解决这个问题，但它并不是那么紧急或高度优先，因为你正在实现三位数的增长。

What's wrong?

怎么了？

Everything's going great, right?

一切都很顺利，对吧？

Noam Lovinsky: And then the moment growth starts to slow or certainly when growth starts to be negative, all of a sudden the tenor in the organization really changes and you start looking at things very differently and trying to understand what's actually going on.

诺姆·洛文斯基：然后，当增长开始放缓，或者肯定是当增长开始出现负增长时，突然之间，组织中的基调真的发生了变化，你开始以非常不同的方式看待事物，并试图了解实际发生的情况。

And so I think it's actually a very healthy thing for businesses to go through as they turn into long-term sustainable businesses to have those sorts of moments, because I think otherwise it's just really challenging to identify where the true issues are.

因此，我认为，对于企业来说，当它们转变为长期可持续发展的企业时，拥有这样的时刻实际上是一件非常健康的事情，因为我认为否则的话，确定真正的问题在哪里真的很有挑战性。

And I think as a PM, if you've only ever worked on things that grow and you've never felt the other side of that and how to help turn that around with your team, I think you lose a lot in your career if you don't experience that.

我认为，作为一名产品经理，如果你只致力于发展的事情，而你从未感受到它的另一面，以及如何帮助你的团队扭转这一局面，我认为如果你没有经历过这一点，你在职业生涯中会损失很多。

Noam Lovinsky: I'm kind of naturally paranoid.

诺姆·洛文斯基：我天生偏执。

And especially as I manage growth, I often look at things and ask myself like, "Okay, what do I do right now if it went negative?

尤其是当我管理增长时，我经常看着事情并问自己，“好吧，如果它变成负数，我现在该怎么办？

How would I prioritize things if it went negative?" Having gone through that experience, I just look at things in a different way of urgency.

如果结果为负，我将如何优先处理事情？”经历了那次经历后，我只是以不同的方式看待事情的紧迫性。

I look at things at different levels of priority having gone through that experience.

经历过那次经历后，我会以不同的优先级来看待事物。

Lenny: With this Thumbtack story, I think it's rare that a business gets the smile graph that you described, this prettiest smile graph that this board member has ever seen.

莱尼：通过这个图钉故事，我认为企业很少能获得您所描述的微笑图，这是该董事会成员见过的最漂亮的微笑图。

I think that is rarely the case.

我认为这种情况很少见。

Usually, it doesn't come back up.

通常情况下，它不会回来。

Can you share what you did to help Thumbtack turn things around?

您能分享一下您为帮助 Thumbtack 扭转局面所做的努力吗？

I know it's very particular to Thumbtack in the business, but just anything there that would be useful to people?

我知道 Thumbtack 在这个行业中非常特殊，但是那里有什么对人们有用的东西吗？

Noam Lovinsky: Sure.

诺姆·洛文斯基：当然。

First of all, this is very much the team.

首先，这很大程度上是一个团队。

It's not just things that I did.

这不仅仅是我所做的事情。

So I mean, first was turning on multiple channels of growth.

所以我的意思是，首先是开启多种增长渠道。

Up until then, Thumbtack had tried and stopped paid channels, other organic channels like referrals, all of the typical things.

在那之前，Thumbtack 已经尝试并停止了付费渠道、推荐等其他有机渠道，以及所有典型的事情。

And so, we just went back to first principles on a lot of that and also just kind of reformed a team around that and basically got an amazing team together.

因此，我们在很多方面都回到了首要原则，并围绕这些原则改革了团队，基本上组建了一支出色的团队。

One of them, Whitney Steele is running marketing at Descript now.

惠特尼·斯蒂尔（Whitney Steele）就是其中之一，现在在 Descript 负责营销工作。

Another one, David Schein is running a product at HIMSS.

另一位是 David Schein，他正在 HIMSS 运行一款产品。

But basically I went back to first principles on some of those growth channels and experiment on our way to much, much better results.

但基本上，我回到了其中一些增长渠道的首要原则，并在我们的道路上进行了实验，以获得更好的结果。

Noam Lovinsky: I think that one of the things that we were doing incorrectly at Thumbtack is Thumbtack is actually a marketplace that is actually made up of thousands of marketplaces, right?

Noam Lovinsky：我认为我们在 Thumbtack 做的不正确的事情之一是 Thumbtack 实际上是一个由数千个市场组成的市场，对吧？

Like DJs in Philadelphia is one marketplace, DJs in Atlanta is another marketplace, contractors in Sonoma is another marketplace.

就像费城的 DJ 是一个市场一样，亚特兰大的 DJ 是另一个市场，索诺玛的承包商也是另一个市场。

And then Thumbtack is obviously the container of all of those marketplaces.

Thumbtack 显然是所有这些市场的容器。

I think we were just bifurcating our targeting and our growth efforts a little too narrowly, assuming we had to grow in that way market by market rather than targeting more broadly, providing the more aggregate data to Google and others, and then optimizing from there.

我认为我们只是将我们的目标和增长努力分得太窄了，假设我们必须以这种方式逐个市场地增长，而不是更广泛地瞄准，向谷歌和其他人提供更多的汇总数据，然后从那里进行优化。

The fact that we already had really good showing in SEO and really good patriarch and SEO helped to bolster things like SEM and then eventually Facebook as well.

事实上，我们在 SEO 方面已经取得了非常好的表现，而且非常优秀的家长和 SEO 帮助支持了 SEM 等项目，最终也支持了 Facebook。

Noam Lovinsky: Those were kind of the growth levers, but the core issue with the Thumbtack product was that it was just a very high friction customer experience that really left customers waiting.

诺姆·洛文斯基：这些都是增长杠杆，但 Thumbtack 产品的核心问题是，它只是一种非常高摩擦的客户体验，确实让客户等待。

So the way that Thumbtack worked basically was a customer would find them through a search query, they would come in and they would answer a number of questions about the job they needed done, and then Thumbtack would say, "Okay, great, we'll get back to you in 24 hours." And this is a modern day experience, right?

因此，Thumbtack 的工作方式基本上是客户通过搜索查询找到他们，他们会进来并回答一些有关他们需要完成的工作的问题，然后 Thumbtack 会说：“好的，太好了，我们会在 24 小时内回复您。”这是现代的体验，对吧？

Noam Lovinsky: And then what Thumbtack would do is they would take that job and they would federate it out to as many of the pros that might match the criteria, and then the pros would pay to quote to show up as a potential provider for that job.

诺姆·洛文斯基：然后，Thumbtack 会做的是，他们会接受这份工作，并将其联合给尽可能多的可能符合标准的专业人士，然后专业人士将付费报价，以成为该工作的潜在提供者。

Now, I don't want to take anything away from that team because that worked phenomenally well for a really long time.

现在，我不想从该团队中夺走任何东西，因为该团队在很长一段时间内表现得非常出色。

And actually it's a perfect case study in like, "|Just do the scrappy thing that works to grow." And they did that very well, but the stage and size of the business when I joined it had kind of outgrown that.

事实上，这是一个完美的案例研究，就像“|只要做那些能促进成长的斗志旺盛的事情。”他们在这方面做得很好，但当我加入时，公司的阶段和规模已经超出了这一点。

And the team knew that.

团队知道这一点。

That's obviously a very high friction experience.

这显然是一种非常高摩擦的体验。

The idea that the customer, they're super excited, they want to hire someone, and at that moment you'd be like, "Cool, talk to you soon," not the best experience.

客户的想法是，他们非常兴奋，他们想雇用某人，在那一刻你会说，“酷，很快就和你谈谈”，这不是最好的体验。

Noam Lovinsky: And the fact that you're asking your supply to put up money to even show up to customers in the first place, well, what the customers want to see is the supply.

诺姆·洛文斯基：事实上，你要求你的供应商提供资金，甚至首先向客户展示，嗯，客户想要看到的是供应。

Like, "Tell me who I can hire." Also, a lot of friction on that side and also in some cases some unfair revenue on that side because if folks are paying to be seen and maybe they're looked at, but there's not really high intent, then they're not going to get the customers they want, they're going to be spending revenue, they're not going to be getting revenue back.

就像，“告诉我可以雇用谁。”此外，这方面存在很多摩擦，在某些情况下，这方面还存在一些不公平的收入，因为如果人们付费是为了被看到，也许他们被看到，但没有真正的高意图，那么他们就不会得到他们想要的客户，他们将花费收入，他们不会收回收入。

It turns into just a bad loop obviously.

显然它变成了一个糟糕的循环。

Noam Lovinsky: So the main thing we did is to rebuild that whole loop, change the monetization model, build a system where essentially pros could provide instant quotes.

诺姆·洛文斯基：所以我们做的主要事情是重建整个循环，改变货币化模型，建立一个系统，让专业人士基本上可以提供即时报价。

Lenny, I'm sure from Airbnb, this is very familiar, the move from request to book to instant booking.

Lenny，我确信 Airbnb 的人对此非常熟悉，从请求到预订再到即时预订的转变。

It was a very similar thing in a different kind of category of service and supply obviously.

显然，在不同类型的服务和供应中，这是非常相似的事情。

But that shift and doing that shift across those thousands of marketplaces and then finding the right friction point for monetization and when and what to charge people for and all of that change, that is what really, at its core, turned the growth engine around at Thumbtack.

但这种转变以及在数千个市场中进行这种转变，然后找到正确的货币化摩擦点，以及何时向人们收取费用以及向人们收取什么费用以及所有这些变化，这才是真正扭转 Thumbtack 增长引擎的核心所在。

And it's just a real testament to those founders that they believe that, saw that, and were willing to run a pill and chew glass to get to that point.

这对那些创始人来说是一个真正的证明，他们相信这一点，看到这一点，并且愿意通过服用药物和咀嚼玻璃来达到这一点。

I don't know the details of the business anymore.

我已经不知道这家公司的详细情况了。

And if I did, I wouldn't speak to it.

如果我这样做，我就不会说话。

But from what I hear, things are going well, so I think that that served the company well.

但据我所知，一切进展顺利，所以我认为这对公司很有好处。

Lenny: Yeah, as you were talking about that, that's exactly an experience Airbnb went through.

莱尼：是的，正如您所说，这正是 Airbnb 所经历的经历。

I actually led that effort at Airbnb.

事实上，我在 Airbnb 领导了这项工作。

It took three years of my life.

这花了我三年的时间。

Noam Lovinsky: Oh my gosh, we should talk about that one day.

诺姆·洛文斯基：天哪，我们有一天应该讨论一下这个问题。

Lenny: Yeah, I've written about it here and there, but honestly very quietly is one of the biggest transformations Airbnb went through, shifting from I'm going to go request a book to basically every book now on Airbnb is instant.

莱尼：是的，我已经到处写过相关内容，但老实说，非常安静地是 Airbnb 经历的最大转变之一，从“我要去索取一本书”转变为现在 Airbnb 上的每一本书基本上都是即时的。

And that was a very difficult and painful journey.

那是一段非常艰难和痛苦的旅程。

But looking back, I don't think Airbnb would've made it if not for that.

但回想起来，我认为如果没有这一点，Airbnb 就不会成功。

And unlike Thumbtack, we did it before things were starting to fall apart.

与图钉不同的是，我们在事情开始崩溃之前就做到了。

And actually, I was going to say the lens that we used that I find really helpful here is, you should be asking yourself, "If somebody was to come into our space and disrupt us and start now to become the new Airbnb, what would they do?"

事实上，我想说的是，我认为我们使用的真正有用的视角是，你应该问自己，“如果有人进入我们的空间并扰乱我们并开始成为新的 Airbnb，他们会做什么？”

Lenny: And it was obvious that it'd be be make it instant, just the way it works.

莱尼：很明显，这将是即时的，就像它的工作方式一样。

Welcome to Airbnb disruptor.

欢迎来到 Airbnb 颠覆者。

And so, yeah.

所以，是的。

Noam Lovinsky: Another learning there is any product you work on that involves bits and atoms is exponentially harder than products that just involve bits.

诺姆·洛文斯基（Noam Lovinsky）：另一个教训是，你所从事的任何涉及比特和原子的产品都比只涉及比特的产品要困难得多。

But it's amazing how something as seemingly simple as make an instant ends up being so incredibly deep and complicated.

但令人惊奇的是，像瞬间一样看似简单的事情最终变得如此令人难以置信的深刻和复杂。

And especially on an existing business, making that transition while still growing is just very, very complicated.

尤其是对于现有业务，在仍在增长的同时进行转型是非常非常复杂的。

Fantastic learning I'm sure you had as well.

非常棒的学习，我相信你也有过这样的经历。

Lenny: Very difficult to change people's expectations and behavior.

莱尼：改变人们的期望和行为非常困难。

This could be its own podcast episode, just changing marketplaces into an instant experience.

这可能是它自己的播客节目，只是将市场转变为即时体验。

Lenny: I wanted to circle back real quick to the first lesson you had there, which is adding new channels.

莱尼：我想快速回顾一下您在那里学到的第一课，即添加新频道。

I think this is a really interesting takeaway here.

我认为这是一个非常有趣的收获。

So essentially Thumbtack was reliant on SEO.

因此，Thumbtack 本质上依赖于 SEO。

Google slash the sword, as you described, started changing things so traffic stopped coming.

正如您所描述的，谷歌砍下了剑，开始改变一切，因此流量停止了。

I think a cool lesson here is just if you're reliant on one growth channel, which I think most companies actually are, I think most companies have one main driver, I think a lesson here is potentially before things start to fall apart, especially if you're SEO-driven, start to explore more practically paid referrals.

我认为这里的一个很酷的教训是，如果你依赖一个增长渠道，我认为大多数公司实际上都是如此，我认为大多数公司都有一个主要驱动力，我认为这里的一个教训可能是在事情开始崩溃之前，特别是如果你是搜索引擎优化驱动的，开始探索更实际的付费推荐。

Noam Lovinsky: Totally.

诺姆·洛文斯基：完全可以。

I mean I think maybe it's, again, it's kind of living through that.

我的意思是，我想也许这又是一种经历过的经历。

Now, anytime I look at a product or look at a team, it's one of the first things that perks up the paranoia of just like, "Oh no. You don't want to be in that situation.

现在，每当我看到一个产品或一个团队时，最先激起偏执的事情之一就是，“哦不。你不想处于那种情况。

Let's figure out now how you start to diversify because you just never know, like you say, when one of those might dry up."

现在让我们弄清楚如何开始多元化，因为就像你说的，你永远不知道其中之一何时会枯竭。”

Lenny: Imagine a place where you can find all your potential customers and get your message in front of them in a cost-efficient way.

Lenny：想象一个地方，您可以找到所有潜在客户，并以经济高效的方式向他们传达您的信息。

If you're a B2B business, that place exists, and it's called LinkedIn.

如果您从事 B2B 业务，那么这个地方就存在，它的名字叫 LinkedIn。

Lenny: LinkedIn ads allows you to build the right relationships, drive results, and reach your customers in a respectful environment.

Lenny：LinkedIn 广告可让您建立正确的关系、推动成果并在相互尊重的环境中接触客户。

Two of my portfolio companies, Webflow and Census, are LinkedIn success stories.

我的投资组合中的两家公司 Webflow 和 Census 都是 LinkedIn 的成功案例。

Census had a 10X increase in pipeline with a LinkedIn startup team.

Census 与 LinkedIn 初创团队合作的渠道增加了 10 倍。

For Webflow, after ramping up on LinkedIn in Q4, they had the highest marketing source revenue quarter to date.

对于 Webflow 来说，在第四季度在 LinkedIn 上取得进展后，他们拥有了迄今为止季度最高的营销来源收入。

With LinkedIn ads, you'll have direct access to and can build relationships with decision makers including 950 million members, 180 million senior execs, and over 10 million C-level executives.

通过 LinkedIn 广告，您将可以直接接触决策者并与其建立关系，其中包括 9.5 亿会员、1.8 亿高级管理人员和超过 1000 万 C 级管理人员。

You'll be able to drive results with targeting and measurement tools built specifically for B2B.

您将能够利用专为 B2B 构建的定位和衡量工具来推动结果。

In tech, LinkedIn generated 2 to 5X higher return on ad spend than any other social media platforms.

在科技领域，LinkedIn 的广告支出回报率比任何其他社交媒体平台高出 2 到 5 倍。

Audiences on LinkedIn have two times the buying power of the average web audience, and you'll work with a partner who respects the B2B world you operate in.

LinkedIn 上的受众的购买力是普通网络受众的两倍，而且您将与尊重您所在 B2B 世界的合作伙伴合作。

Make B2B marketing everything it can be and get $100 credit on your next campaign.

尽一切可能进行 B2B 营销，并在您的下一次营销活动中获得 100 美元的积分。

Just go to linkedin.com/podlenny to claim your credit.

只需访问 linkedin.com/podlenny 即可领取您的积分。

That's linkedin.com/podlenny.

那是 linkedin.com/podlenny。

Terms and conditions apply.

条款和条件适用。

Lenny: Is there anything else from your time at Thumbtack that stands out as an interesting lesson or takeaway that you bring with you to the work you do now?

Lenny：您在 Thumbtack 工作期间还有什么其他事情可以作为有趣的教训或收获带到您现在所做的工作中吗？

Noam Lovinsky: I would say this, I think especially at the leadership level, the team that reports to the CEO, that group doesn't always have the opportunity to do a lot of project work together, right?

诺姆·洛文斯基：我想说的是，我认为特别是在领导层，向首席执行官报告的团队，该团队并不总是有机会一起做很多项目工作，对吗？

You've got your CFO, you've got your head of sales, you've got your product and your engineering.

你有你的首席财务官、你有你的销售主管、你有你的产品和你的工程。

There's just not as often as natural ways for that group to work together.

该团队的合作方式并不常见。

And then when something happens like growth goes negative, that group is very important.

当出现负增长等情况时，这个群体就非常重要。

And that group's ability to tackle hard things together is very important.

该团队共同解决困难问题的能力非常重要。

I think that one important lesson from that is, no one can be a bystander on product strategy.

我认为从中得到的一个重要教训是，没有人可以成为产品策略的旁观者。

Just because you've got product in your title doesn't mean you're the only one that should be thinking about product strategy certainly at that level.

仅仅因为您的标题中有产品并不意味着您是唯一应该在该级别考虑产品策略的人。

Certainly not in engineering.

当然不是在工程领域。

Noam Lovinsky: The CFO, the head of people, everyone needs to have a seat at the table when it comes to product strategy, what the company's doing and what they're going to do to grow out of the situation that they're in.

诺姆·洛文斯基（Noam Lovinsky）：首席财务官、员工负责人，在涉及产品战略、公司正在做什么以及他们将做什么以摆脱当前困境时，每个人都需要在谈判桌上占有一席之地。

Because otherwise, in those hard times it can kind of be like a, "What have you done for me lately?" sort of a dynamic.

因为否则，在那些困难时期，它可能会有点像，“你最近为我做了什么？”有点动态。

And that's just not the right dynamic to have on that team.

这并不是该团队的正确动力。

I'm not saying that at Thumbtack we had the right dynamic, but I think it was a really important learning in that moment of how that team, even if they didn't typically get as involved in things like product strategy and what we're building, how everyone had to be all hands on deck and really thinking about those sorts of problems because it's the only way I think you can get a whole company and team out of those situations by everyone getting involved in doing their part and pulling on the levers that they have in their area in order to do that well.

我并不是说在 Thumbtack 我们拥有正确的动力，但我认为，在那个时刻，这是一个非常重要的学习，即使他们通常不会参与产品战略和我们正在构建的东西之类的事情，每个人都必须全力以赴，真正思考这些问题，因为我认为这是让整个公司和团队摆脱这些情况的唯一方法，每个人都参与到自己的部分中，并利用他们在自己领域中拥有的杠杆。为了把这件事做好。

I don't think it can work in any other way.

我认为它不能以任何其他方式发挥作用。

Lenny: So there's a lesson there.

莱尼：所以这是一个教训。

Build a relationship with the leadership team before things start to go awry.

在事情开始出错之前与领导团队建立关系。

Noam Lovinsky: That, yes.

诺姆·洛文斯基：是的。

Certainly that, but I think it's also incumbent for people in our roles and engineering roles to bring strategy to that discussion, to that group, in a way that it is possible for everyone to engage and everyone to internalize and understand what it means for their area and to even have obviously a say in because they're on the leadership team at the end of the day.

当然，但我认为，我们的角色和工程角色的人员也有责任将战略带入该讨论、该小组，以便每个人都可以参与，每个人都可以内化并理解这对他们的领域意味着什么，甚至显然有发言权，因为他们最终是领导团队的一员。

They should feel like their fingerprint is also on the company strategy, and as soon as it starts to feel like that's their world, that's our world.

他们应该感觉到他们的指纹也在公司战略上，一旦开始感觉那是他们的世界，那就是我们的世界。

And I think that's true for any of the functions.

我认为这对于任何功能都是如此。

It's true for what's happening in sales, it's true for what's happening in marketing.

对于销售中发生的事情来说是这样，对于营销中发生的事情来说也是如此。

As product managers, we naturally need to be the connective tissue across all of that, but I think the whole leadership team at that level should feel like connective tissue across all of those functions.

作为产品经理，我们自然需要成为所有这些职能的结缔组织，但我认为该级别的整个领导团队应该感觉像是所有这些职能的结缔组织。

Lenny: Okay.

莱尼：好的。

Let's transition to Facebook.

让我们转向 Facebook。

This is I think an example of 0 to 1.

我认为这是0到1的一个例子。

So when you were at Facebook, you built what is called the New Product Experimentation team.

因此，当您在 Facebook 时，您建立了所谓的新产品实验团队。

I actually thought it was called the New Product Experiment Experience team, but I think it's New Product Experimentation team.

我其实以为它叫新产品实验体验团队，但我认为它是新产品实验团队。

My understanding is the idea there is, instead of Facebook having to buy the next Instagram and WhatsApp and all the things basically incubate startups within Facebook in a stabled concept, a startup within a startup, create all these startups within a startup.

我的理解是，Facebook 不必收购下一个 Instagram 和 WhatsApp，所有这些基本上都是在 Facebook 内部以稳定的概念孵化初创公司，即初创公司中的初创公司，而是在初创公司中创建所有这些初创公司。

And as an outsider, it feels like it was really fun for a while, but it hasn't let any amazing new businesses for Facebook.

而作为一个局外人，感觉这段时间确实很有趣，但并没有让 Facebook 出现任何令人惊叹的新业务。

Correct me if I'm wrong.

如果我错了请纠正我。

I'm curious what that experience was like, what you took away from it, how it went, what you think about when you look back at that part of your journey.

我很好奇那次经历是什么样的，你从中得到了什么，进展如何，当你回顾这段旅程时你会想到什么。

Noam Lovinsky: I was one of the few folks that kind of joined that team early and help build that team.

诺姆·洛文斯基：我是少数早期加入该团队并帮助建立该团队的人之一。

How it ended up and how it closed down, I am not familiar with because I wasn't there.

它是如何结束的以及如何关闭的，我不熟悉，因为我不在那里。

But I think in terms of was it a success or not because it didn't build the next Instagram I think is a little bit of the wrong bar to set for things like that.

但我认为，就它是否成功而言，因为它没有打造出下一个 Instagram，我认为为此类事情设定的标准有点错误。

To some extent, it's like, "Did the group win the lottery or not?

在某种程度上，这就像“这个团体是否中了彩票？

And let's judge there.

让我们在那里进行判断。

Let's judge their success." Obviously I'm not saying that discovering something like Instagram is just winning the lottery, but you get what I mean in terms of the rarity of those sorts of discoveries and those sorts of products.

让我们来评判他们的成功吧。”显然，我并不是说发现像 Instagram 这样的东西就等于中了彩票，但你明白我的意思了，这类发现和产品的稀有性。

Noam Lovinsky: I think that that team was very realistic about what I would say would be the champagne level outcomes and/or more like the kind of beer, nice dinner kind of level outcomes.

诺姆·洛文斯基：我认为该团队对于我所说的香槟水平结果和/或更类似于啤酒、美味晚餐类型的水平结果非常现实。

Noam Lovinsky: Yeah, the wine.

诺姆·洛文斯基：是的，酒。

Yeah, thank you.

是的，谢谢。

That's a better analogy.

这是一个更好的比喻。

I think we built knowing those sorts of outcomes would also be very beneficial to the organization.

我认为我们知道这些结果也会对组织非常有益。

So as an example, one of them is, at Facebook scale, doing things that don't scale or doing things that start out small was just a muscle that was really hard to come by, right?

举个例子，其中之一是，在 Facebook 规模上，做一些无法规模化的事情或做一些从小事开始的事情只是一种很难获得的肌肉，对吧？

It's like any community product that you build, any kind of social where there's community density that's important early on, any product that you build that way, starting with a million users is a really hard way to do that.

这就像你构建的任何社区产品，任何类型的社交产品，其中社区密度在早期都很重要，你以这种方式构建的任何产品，从一百万用户开始都是一个非常困难的方法。

At places like Facebook and Google, it's like it's hard to run an experiment with a hundred people.

在 Facebook 和 Google 这样的地方，很难对一百个人进行实验。

It's not hard, it's impossible, right?

这不难，这是不可能的，对吧？

And so this idea that you would have to get real small, that you would have to start very targeted, that you would have to start with things that clearly don't scale and don't have a chance of being big from the get-go is really, really hard in an organization like that.

因此，在这样的组织中，你必须变得非常小，你必须非常有针对性地开始，你必须从明显无法扩展且没有机会从一开始就做大的事情开始，这种想法真的非常非常困难。

Noam Lovinsky: And so creating that space for NPE to be able to do that, to be able to help remind the organization what are the mechanisms we need to be able to build and learn that way was very beneficial.

Noam Lovinsky：因此，为 NPE 创造一个能够做到这一点的空间，能够帮助提醒组织我们需要建立哪些机制并以这种方式学习，这是非常有益的。

Even simple things.

即使是简单的事情。

At an organization of Facebook size, maybe experiences at an Airbnb, it is really hard for product managers, engineers and designers to talk directly with customers.

在 Facebook 规模的组织中，也许是 Airbnb 的经历，产品经理、工程师和设计师很难直接与客户交谈。

It is basically impossible.

基本上是不可能的。

You're almost always talking through some third party, some recruiting agency and getting reports and you're not always in the room.

你几乎总是通过一些第三方、一些招聘机构进行交谈并获取报告，而你并不总是在房间里。

Imagine building a startup, like a product from day one and not being able to sit right next to your customer and being like, "Show me how you do this or show me how you do that.' It's incredibly hard.

想象一下，创建一家初创公司，就像从第一天开始开发产品一样，却无法坐在客户旁边，然后说：“告诉我你是如何做到这一点的，或者告诉我你是如何做到那件事的。”这非常困难。

You're looking for such faint signal.

您正在寻找如此微弱的信号。

Noam Lovinsky: The idea that you would try to get it through layers of indirection and games of telephone is crazy, but at that scale, that's what you have to do because there's all of these legal concerns and many other realistic concerns about what you can say to who and who you can talk to and what you can tell them about what you're doing and all of these things.

诺姆·洛文斯基（Noam Lovinsky）：你试图通过间接层和电话游戏来实现这一点的想法是疯狂的，但在这种规模上，这就是你必须做的，因为存在所有这些法律问题和许多其他现实问题，即你可以对谁说些什么，你可以与谁交谈，以及你可以告诉他们你在做什么以及所有这些事情。

So creating an environment where those sorts of constraints were lifted and were different was very beneficial, I think, to the organization and started to shed a light on some of the things that were broken that make it hard to build 0 to 1 in those sorts of environments.

因此，我认为，创建一个解除此类限制且有所不同的环境对组织非常有益，并开始揭示一些被打破的事物，这些事物使得在此类环境中难以构建 0 到 1。

Noam Lovinsky: I also think it was a really fantastic recruiting tool.

诺姆·洛文斯基：我也认为这是一个非常棒的招聘工具。

It did build a really great group of folks, many of which have left to go start interesting companies.

它确实建立了一个非常优秀的团队，其中许多人已经离开并创办了有趣的公司。

But I guess what I'm trying to say is I think when you're an organizational leader, and Schrep was the org leader that was supporting NP at the time and he's fantastic and really did a good job of firewalling that team, I think you're looking at a set of objectives and a number of ways that you might help the company and the organization.

但我想我想说的是，我认为当你是一名组织领导者时，Schrep 是当时支持 NP 的组织领导者，他非常出色，并且在为该团队提供防火墙方面确实做得很好，我认为你正在考虑一组目标和多种可以帮助公司和组织的方法。

Even if you set that light on the hill to be like, "Go find the next Instagram," many of the things that you would do along the way to find the next Instagram end up being very beneficial to the broader organization.

即使你把山上的那盏灯设置成“去寻找下一个 Instagram”，你在寻找下一个 Instagram 的过程中所做的许多事情最终都会对更广泛的组织非常有益。

We saw a lot of that in PE.

我们在体育课上看到了很多这样的情况。

Lenny: That's a really interesting perspective.

莱尼：这是一个非常有趣的观点。

There's a lot of other goals with something like this, it's not just find the next massive business.

类似的事情还有很多其他目标，不仅仅是寻找下一个大规模业务。

It's the way I think what I'm getting from this is shine almost a mirror on the organization, like, "Here's the things we can't do with the regular business and we have to do something.

我认为我从这件事中得到的东西几乎就像一面镜子照耀着组织，就像，“这些事情我们不能在常规业务中做，我们必须做一些事情。

We have to set this up in order to try something totally new and radical recruiting tool" I think is interesting.

我们必须进行这样的设置，以便尝试一些全新且激进的招聘工具”，我认为这很有趣。

Lenny: There's actually a team at Airbnb, the way I described it was, I don't know how many people know about Burning Man and how it works, but there's this trash fence around the side that catches all the trash so it doesn't go into the desert.

莱尼：实际上 Airbnb 有一个团队，正如我所描述的那样，我不知道有多少人了解火人节及其运作方式，但旁边有一个垃圾栅栏，可以收集所有垃圾，这样它们就不会进入沙漠。

And I feel like there's teams sometimes that are the trash fence of the company.

我觉得有些团队有时是公司的垃圾围栏。

Lenny: Where someone's about to leave and they're like, "No, go work on this coal stuff over here in the fringe," which is really interesting.

莱尼：当有人要离开时，他们会说，“不，去这里边缘处理煤炭工作吧”，这真的很有趣。

But just instill within the company and maybe help with that.

但只要在公司内部灌输，也许就能对此有所帮助。

Just keep people that are awesome at Meta.

只要保留 Meta 中优秀的人才即可。

.

。

Noam Lovinsky: Yeah.

诺姆·洛文斯基：是的。

You're right that the team didn't discover the next Instagram.

你说得对，团队没有发现下一个 Instagram。

For what it's worth, things like Threads and ideas like Threads were in that team all of the time.

无论如何，像 Threads 这样的东西和像 Threads 这样的想法一直在那个团队中。

I think that if that team caught the wave of generative AI and all of the opportunities and new technologies there, I think things could have also...

我认为，如果该团队抓住了生成人工智能的浪潮以及那里的所有机会和新技术，我认为事情也可能......

Because those are certain moments where you having small, really motivated, dedicated teams that aren't thinking about anything mainline can lead to faster discoveries, I think that can also help.

因为在某些时刻，你拥有小型、真正积极主动、专注的团队，不考虑任何主线，可以带来更快的发现，我认为这也会有所帮助。

But there were a number of things that basically ended up becoming features in other products and they were just easier, faster ways of validating and building them because you didn't have the constraints of the mainline product development organization, right?

但是有很多东西基本上最终成为了其他产品的功能，它们只是验证和构建它们的更简单、更快的方法，因为你没有主线产品开发组织的限制，对吧？

Lenny: For someone that is thinking about trying to create a startup within a startup, something a lot of big companies are trying to do, is there a piece of advice or two that you'd share for helping this be effective?

莱尼：对于那些正在考虑尝试在初创公司中创建一家初创公司的人（许多大公司都在尝试做的事情），您是否可以分享一两条建议来帮助其发挥作用？

Maybe one is just the goal may not be build the next big business.

也许一个只是目标可能不是建立下一个大企业。

There's these sub goals also.

还有这些子目标。

What comes to mind?

我想到了什么？

Noam Lovinsky: God, there's so many.

诺姆·洛文斯基：天哪，有这么多。

Schrep did a really fantastic job of removing a lot of these constraints.

施雷普在消除许多这些限制方面做得非常出色。

So one is I would say think really hard about the incentive system.

所以我想说的是，认真思考激励制度。

Smart, good people, even if they're not trying to, they end up kind of gaming things towards the incentive system.

聪明、善良的人，即使他们不努力，他们最终也会对激励制度进行博弈。

And so think long and hard about that.

因此，请认真思考这一点。

So for instance, if you're a large organization and you do some performance management process like twice a year and that's how you're going to evaluate and incentivize people in your 0 to 1 incubator, you've already killed it.

举例来说，如果你是一个大型组织，并且你每年进行两次绩效管理流程，这就是你在 0 到 1 孵化器中评估和激励人员的方式，那么你已经杀死了它。

It's the wrong incentive, it's the wrong timeframe.

这是错误的动机，也是错误的时间框架。

It creates adverse selection, problems for the sort of people that you bring in.

它会产生逆向选择，给你引进的人带来问题。

And so it's hard in an existing organization to say, "We're going to take all these company processes around even how we level people and pay them and motivate them.

因此，在现有的组织中，很难说：“我们将围绕如何调整人员、支付工资和激励他们来制定所有这些公司流程。

And we're going to throw them out the window for this group."

对于这个群体，我们将把它们扔出窗外。”

Noam Lovinsky: How you build the infrastructure you use, this is something that the NP team did really well.

Noam Lovinsky：如何构建您使用的基础设施，这是 NP 团队做得非常好的事情。

Everyone got to do their own thing from an infrastructure perspective.

从基础设施的角度来看，每个人都必须做自己的事情。

Just do what is best for the problem you're trying to solve in this moment, knowing that you're likely going to throw away a lot of this code anyway.

只做最适合您此刻试图解决的问题的事情，因为您知道无论如何您都可能会扔掉很多这样的代码。

Being able to do that in an organization like Facebook or Google, if you ask anyone that works on those things, is really hard.

如果你问任何从事这些工作的人，能够在 Facebook 或 Google 这样的组织中做到这一点真的很难。

It takes someone like a Schrep to be like, "Nope, they're going to get to do this.

需要像 Schrep 这样的人才会说：“不，他们会这么做的。

Sorry." And so I think that's really helpful.

抱歉。”所以我认为这真的很有帮助。

Noam Lovinsky: For what it's worth, one of the organizations that we talked to that I felt like was doing this in one of the best ways was Nike.

诺姆·洛文斯基：就其价值而言，我认为耐克是我们交谈过的最好方式之一的组织之一。

Nike has this incubation lab.

耐克有这个孵化实验室。

It's a completely different operating model.

这是一种完全不同的运营模式。

They recruit a completely different type of person, very different incentive system.

他们招募完全不同类型的人，采用截然不同的激励制度。

And essentially, where they end up plugging them into Nike is that when they have something into the distribution marketing kind of growth arms of Nike.

从本质上讲，他们最终将其插入耐克的地方是，当他们将某些东西纳入耐克的分销营销类型的增长部门时。

But for the product discovery process, they're doing their whole different thing.

但对于产品发现过程，他们正在做完全不同的事情。

Once they find some fit, then kind of Nike comes in and goes, "Boom.

一旦他们找到合适的，耐克就会介入并说，“繁荣。

I'm going to help you explode your fit." But I think that the number one thing I would think about would be the incentive system and the adverse selection that that can cause.

我会帮助你爆发出你的健康。”但我认为我首先要考虑的事情是激励制度以及由此可能导致的逆向选择。

Lenny: To me, the most important element of the incentive system, and maybe I'm reading between the lines, is you're basically competing against them starting their own thing.

莱尼：对我来说，激励制度中最重要的要素，也许我正在从字里行间看出，你基本上是在与他们开始自己的事情竞争。

And having upside if things go super well feels really important versus, "I'm just going to get a cool salary at Meta and work on this thing." That doesn't lead to the same experience as a startup where everything's on the line.

如果事情进展顺利，那么拥有积极的一面就感觉非常重要，而不是“我只是要在 Meta 获得一份不错的薪水并致力于这件事。”这不会带来与一切都处于危险之中的初创公司相同的体验。

Noam Lovinsky: Yeah.

诺姆·洛文斯基：是的。

And also what time horizons, right?

还有什么时间范围，对吧？

When you're starting a company, you're not thinking like, "In the next six months, I'm going to get a promo and I'm going to get a good rating and things are going to go well." You're thinking on a different, excuse me, time horizon, and you're thinking about an outsized impact or an outsized incentive.

当你创办一家公司时，你不会这样想：“在接下来的六个月里，我将获得促销，我将获得良好的评价，一切都会进展顺利。”对不起，你正在考虑不同的时间范围，并且你正在考虑巨大的影响或巨大的激励。

And so I would think about that if you're starting things internally as well.

因此，如果您也在内部开始做事，我会考虑这一点。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

Okay.

好的。

Let's move to the final bucket, Grammarly, which is where you're at now.

让我们转到最后一个部分，Grammarly，这就是您现在所处的位置。

The way I'm thinking about it is this kind of like a one, two rocket ship or I don't know, 10.

我的想法有点像一艘、两艘火箭飞船，或者我不知道，10。

It's further along than one, but that's where you're at now.

它比一处更远，但这就是你现在所处的位置。

To me, Grammarly is interesting because it's one of the very few successful B2C subscription businesses.

对我来说，Grammarly 很有趣，因为它是极少数成功的 B2C 订阅业务之一。

There's almost none.

几乎没有。

There's Duolingo, Grammarly.

有 Duolingo、Grammarly。

And I know you're doing B2B also, but there's so few.

我知道你们也在做 B2B，但数量太少了。

There's so many dead bodies trying to build a business on top of consumer subscription.

有很多死者试图在消费者订阅的基础上建立业务。

And so I'm just curious.

所以我只是好奇。

What the current state of Grammarly?

Grammarly 的现状如何？

How are things going?

进展如何？

What do you think has been the key to it being successful all this time and continuing to grow?

您认为它一直成功并持续增长的关键是什么？

And what lessons have you learned?

你学到了什么教训？

I know you just joined relatively recently, but anything you've taken away from that journey so far?

我知道您最近才加入，但到目前为止您从这段旅程中学到了什么？

Noam Lovinsky: We don't talk about it often, but Grammarly is a much bigger company from a revenue perspective than I think people realize.

Noam Lovinsky：我们不经常谈论这个问题，但从收入角度来看，Grammarly 是一家规模比我认为人们意识到的要大得多的公司。

The company has been around for 15 years and was profitable from day one, and continues to be quite profitable.

该公司已经成立 15 年，从第一天起就实现盈利，并且持续盈利。

So it's a very, very healthy business that is much larger than folks might realize.

所以这是一个非常非常健康的业务，比人们想象的要大得多。

And that is actually quite intentional because the company was trying not to be noticed for a long time, very intentionally.

这实际上是故意的，因为该公司在很长一段时间内试图不被注意到，非常有意。

The fact that you would have grammar and spell checking in Google Docs or grammar and spell checking in Word.

事实上，您可以在 Google Docs 中进行语法和拼写检查，或者在 Word 中进行语法和拼写检查。

People would often write off the company that like, "How is that a business?

人们常常会因为这样的问题而否定一家公司：“这算什么生意？

How is that a feature?

怎么会有这样的功能呢？

These products already have it." And that was very convenient for Grammarly because they could kind of navigate between these giants in tech and grow a very phenomenal business on this use case that people had written off.

这些产品已经有了它。”这对 Grammarly 来说非常方便，因为他们可以在这些科技巨头之间进行导航，并在人们已经注销的这个用例上发展出非常惊人的业务。

Noam Lovinsky: Now, come the advent of LMS, it's no longer a use case that people are writing off and sort of the dream of the founders that machines can assist us in communication in this way that they've had for 15 years, I feel like now the whole industry is like, "Well, this is obviously how we're going to communicate and machines are going to do all these things for us." And Grammarly is now sort of in the center of that hurricane.

Noam Lovinsky：现在，随着 LMS 的出现，它不再是人们忽视的一个用例，也不再是创始人的梦想，即机器可以帮助我们以这种方式进行沟通，他们已经有 15 年了，我觉得现在整个行业都在说，“嗯，这显然就是我们沟通的方式，机器将为我们做所有这些事情。” Grammarly 现在处于这场飓风的中心。

And again, I think it's a similar thing where it's like, "Well, there's ChatGPT.

再说一次，我认为这是一个类似的事情，“嗯，有 ChatGPT。

There's Microsoft Copilot.

有微软副驾驶。

How is Grammarly going to have a chats?" But yet things still seem like there's the future.

Grammarly 将如何进行聊天？”但事情似乎仍然有未来。

The future is bright.

未来是光明的。

Noam Lovinsky: And so to your question, I think what has made it work, I've only been here for 10 months so please kind of take this with a grain of salt, but my instinct is that people really love Grammarly because of how it works and where it works.

Noam Lovinsky：对于你的问题，我认为是什么让它发挥作用，我只在这里呆了 10 个月，所以请对此持保留态度，但我的直觉是，人们真的很喜欢 Grammarly，因为它的工作方式和工作场所。

And what I mean by how it works is Grammarly is one of the few products where you just install it and it makes you better.

我所说的它是如何工作的，是指 Grammarly 是少数几个只需安装它就能让你变得更好的产品之一。

You don't have to configure it, you don't have to manipulate it, you don't have to change anything about what you're doing.

你不必配置它，你不必操纵它，你不必改变你正在做的任何事情。

You carry on and across all of your applications, across all of your tabs, you'll start getting pushed assistance to you in the right moment.

您可以继续操作所有应用程序、所有选项卡，您将在适当的时候开始获得推送帮助。

You could ignore it if you want, no big deal, but it takes a very, very small amount of effort to tap on one of those things, get some value and keep going.

如果你愿意的话，你可以忽略它，没什么大不了的，但是需要非常非常小的努力来利用其中一个东西，获得一些价值并继续下去。

Noam Lovinsky: I think that a product that is that easy to use, that easy to extract value from, but then also that prevalent, how many different text boxes do you write in a given day?

诺姆·洛文斯基（Noam Lovinsky）：我认为，如果一个产品既易于使用，又易于从中提取价值，而且又很流行，那么您一天会写多少个不同的文本框？

I mean, it is not less than 10, it is tens or potentially hundreds, right?

我的意思是，它不少于10个，有数十个甚至可能数百个，对吗？

And so it is everywhere and it is very, very low effort to get real value from it.

因此它无处不在，而且只需付出非常非常少的努力就能从中获得真正的价值。

And then the where we work is what I said, you don't have to change anything about your workflow.

然后我们工作的地方就是我所说的，你不必改变你的工作流程的任何东西。

Grammarly meets you where you are and you get value from it.

Grammarly 在您所在的地方满足您的需求，并从中获得价值。

Doing that really well at this level of quality for a user base of this scale, essentially it's like a huge AI achievement masquerading as a little UX innovation, right?

对于这种规模的用户群来说，在这种质量水平上做得很好，本质上就像一个巨大的人工智能成就伪装成一个小小的用户体验创新，对吧？

But that experience, that UX that sort of brings AI to the masses has obviously served Grammarly really well.

但这种将人工智能带给大众的用户体验显然对 Grammarly 非常有用。

I think those are some of the strengths that we're going to continue to lean on to now provide a very different type of assistance and value that we can because of where the technology has moved.

我认为这些是我们将继续依靠的一些优势，因为技术已经发展，我们现在可以提供一种非常不同类型的帮助和价值。

Lenny: The other thing I've heard a lot about Grammarly, and Yuri was on the podcast and who led growth for a long time at Grammarly, is just how scrappy the business has been and the founders have been from the beginning, the fact that they've been profitable from the beginning.

莱尼：我经常听到有关 Grammarly 的另一件事，尤里 (Yuri) 出现在播客上，并在很长一段时间里领导了 Grammarly 的发展，那就是这家公司的业务和创始人从一开始就是多么斗志旺盛，事实上，他们从一开始就盈利了。

That feels like one of the threads through all of the successful consumer subscription companies, is super scrappy, not raising money for a long time.

这感觉就像所有成功的消费者订阅公司的主线之一，是超级斗志旺盛，很长一段时间没有筹集到资金。

Is there anything there that you found to be really interesting or helpful for other folks that are maybe building the space?

您发现有什么东西对其他可能正在建造该空间的人来说真正有趣或有帮助吗？

Noam Lovinsky: When you're a team that kind of starts out of Ukraine and you're not thinking that there's any chance that you're going to raise money and why would you do that, I mean it really...

诺姆·洛文斯基：当你是一支从乌克兰起步的团队时，你不会想到有任何机会筹集资金以及为什么要这样做，我的意思是真的......

Back to our previous conversation of what happens when growth goes negative, it really forces you to focus on the important things.

回到我们之前关于负增长时会发生什么的讨论，它确实迫使你专注于重要的事情。

And so, like many of the early engineers who are still here because the company has done so well over the years, they think in like, "How is this work going to translate into revenue?" They think about the impact on the business from even very deep technical work that they're doing because I think they were brought up in this culture where the business doesn't really invest ahead of its profitability because it was a bootstrap business from day one.

因此，就像许多早期工程师一样，他们仍然留在这里，因为公司多年来做得很好，他们会想，“这项工作将如何转化为收入？”他们会思考他们正在做的非常深入的技术工作对业务的影响，因为我认为他们是在这种文化中长大的，在这种文化中，企业不会在盈利之前进行真正的投资，因为它从第一天起就是一个引导业务。

So that enforces everyone to think about their projects and their prioritization and how is what they're doing over the next two months going to actually turn into more revenue and keep the company growing and sustaining.

因此，这迫使每个人都思考他们的项目和优先顺序，以及他们在接下来的两个月里所做的事情如何真正转化为更多的收入并保持公司的增长和维持。

So I think that culture is prevalent and help Grammarly get to where it is.

所以我认为文化很普遍，有助于 Grammarly 达到现在的水平。

Noam Lovinsky: Now, I just want to be really honest that in moments that we're in like today, that can also be detrimental because the business gets to a certain size, you start getting to law of large numbers.

诺姆·洛文斯基：现在，我只想说实话，在我们今天这样的时刻，这也可能是有害的，因为业务达到一定规模，你开始遵循大数定律。

You need to start thinking about are there other products?

您需要开始考虑还有其他产品吗？

Are there other use cases?

还有其他用例吗？

Are there other channels of growth?

还有其他增长渠道吗？

How do you invest ahead of some of that growth and start to diversify?

您如何在部分增长之前进行投资并开始多元化？

Because at the scale and size that we are and aspire to be, we're going to have to do many more things and service many more different types of customers.

因为按照我们现在和渴望达到的规模和规模，我们将不得不做更多的事情并为更多不同类型的客户提供服务。

And as you mentioned, we're going to have to pull off the motion of B2C to B, kind of get that product-led sales motion going.

正如您所提到的，我们将不得不完成 B2C 到 B 的行动，从而推动以产品为主导的销售行动。

So all of those things are happening.

所以所有这些事情正在发生。

And thankfully the business is as strong as it is where we can invest ahead now in those things while still maintaining profitability and a really strong business.

值得庆幸的是，该业务非常强大，我们现在可以在这些方面进行提前投资，同时仍然保持盈利能力和真正强大的业务。

Lenny: That's amazing that they're still team members and maybe I think you said engineers from the beginning, 12 years later.

Lenny：令人惊讶的是，他们仍然是团队成员，也许我认为你从一开始就说是工程师，12 年后。

I think that says a lot about the business.

我认为这说明了很多关于业务的问题。

And before we started recording, they're based in Ukraine and you were saying that they're going to Zooms, there's bombs going off, they have to go into bomb shelters and then jump on a meeting.

在我们开始录制之前，他们在乌克兰，你说他们要去 Zooms，炸弹爆炸了，他们必须进入防空洞，然后参加会议。

It's incredible that team continues to operate and the business continues to do this well in spite of all that.

尽管如此，令人难以置信的是，团队仍在继续运营，业务也继续表现出色。

Noam Lovinsky: Yeah, the team in Ukraine at Grammarly is...

诺姆·洛文斯基：是的，乌克兰语法学院的团队是......

I mean, it's something else.

我的意思是，这是另一回事。

It's a really fantastic team.

这是一支非常棒的团队。

When you speak to many of them, I think actually the work provides sometimes a very useful distraction, but they obviously feel a lot of pride in the business.

当你与他们中的许多人交谈时，我认为实际上工作有时会提供非常有用的干扰，但他们显然对自己的业务感到非常自豪。

They built a lot of this business.

他们建立了很多这样的业务。

There aren't yet many businesses of this size that kind of come from Ukraine.

来自乌克兰的这种规模的企业还不多。

I think that that team is incredible and continues to deliver a ton of impact to the company even in the circumstances that they're in.

我认为这个团队是令人难以置信的，即使在他们所处的环境下，他们仍然继续为公司带来巨大的影响。

I know for the founders, a lot of why they want Grammarly to succeed and be the generational company that it can be is for Ukraine, and especially in this moment and it's awesome to see how that motivates them and 15 years on the same project is not nothing.

我知道对于创始人来说，他们希望 Grammarly 取得成功并成为乌克兰的一代公司的很多原因都是为了乌克兰，尤其是在这个时刻，看到这如何激励他们真是太棒了，在同一个项目上 15 年并不是什么都不是。

That's some serious resilience.

这是一种很强的韧性。

And so I think even in moments like that, using them as a way to motivate and strive for something greater I think says a lot about the founders and the team in Ukraine.

因此，我认为即使在这样的时刻，用它们作为一种激励和争取更大目标的方式，我认为也充分说明了乌克兰的创始人和团队。

Lenny: Absolutely.

莱尼：当然。

Hopefully there's a happy resolution soon there.

希望很快就能有一个愉快的解决方案。

I don't know if you know this, I was actually born in Ukraine.

我不知道你是否知道这一点，我实际上出生在乌克兰。

Lenny: I don't want to talk about that much, but it's true.

莱尼：我不想说那么多，但这是事实。

And I just realized we both have skys in our last name.

我刚刚意识到我们的姓氏中都有天空。

Lovinsky and Rachitsky.

洛文斯基和拉契茨基。

Noam Lovinsky: So for what it's worth, my dad was born in Ukraine.

诺姆·洛文斯基：无论如何，我父亲出生在乌克兰。

He is from Kiev.

他来自基辅。

My mom was from Lithuania, so yeah, I also have some Ukrainian background here.

我妈妈来自立陶宛，所以是的，我在这里也有一些乌克兰背景。

Lenny: All right, so Ukrainian episode.

莱尼：好吧，这是乌克兰剧集。

Lenny: Let me zoom out a little bit and get to the final couple questions.

莱尼：让我稍微讨论一下最后几个问题。

So thinking about your career broadly, I'm just curious if there's any general advice you share with people to help them have a more successful career.

因此，从广泛的角度考虑您的职业生涯，我只是好奇您是否可以与人们分享任何一般性建议，以帮助他们获得更成功的职业生涯。

Anything that just generally you find is really important to do well or mistakes they make.

一般而言，您发现的任何事情对于做好或犯错误都非常重要。

And this is a big broad question, but anything come to mind of like, "Here's something you should really try to do more of or less of?"

这是一个大而宽泛的问题，但任何事情都会浮现在脑海中，比如“这是你真正应该尝试多做或少做的事情？”

Noam Lovinsky: Look, when you're thinking about career opportunities and what job to take, it's really, really hard to sniff out really well in a high degree of certainty like success.

诺姆·洛文斯基（Noam Lovinsky）：听着，当你考虑职业机会和该从事什么工作时，真的很难很好地嗅出像成功这样高度确定的东西。

I think that having a good nose for people and the sort of people that you can be successful with is something that you can develop.

我认为，对人有敏锐的洞察力，以及与什么样的人一起才能取得成功，这是你可以培养的。

What I found is I always try to prioritize putting myself in positions that are going to cause a lot of growth and learning.

我发现我总是尝试优先考虑将自己置于能够带来大量成长和学习的位置。

And growth and learning can be very painful.

而成长和学习可能是非常痛苦的。

And you kind of got to be okay with that and go into that because on the other side of that pain I think is the promised land.

你必须接受这一点并投入其中，因为我认为痛苦的另一面就是应许之地。

Noam Lovinsky: And that's just served me really well, is I can't necessarily predict with high degree of certainty that this thing's going to hit, but I can get a sense of the people around me and I certainly can find situations that are going to stretch me, that are going to force me to do things that I haven't done where I'm going to grow and learn significantly.

诺姆·洛文斯基：这对我很有帮助，我不一定能高度确定地预测这件事会发生，但我可以了解我周围的人，我当然可以找到能够让我伸展的情况，这会迫使我做一些我没有做过的事情，从而让我成长和学习。

And over sort of the arc of my career, I feel like that's served me well.

在我的职业生涯中，我觉得这对我很有帮助。

So that's usually what I tell people, is focus on on that if you can.

所以我通常会告诉人们，如果可以的话，集中精力。

Lenny: I love that advice.

莱尼：我喜欢这个建议。

I've used this quote a number of times on this podcast, but something I always come back to is this line, "The cave you fear contains the treasure you seek." I'm curious if there's something you have found about when the pain is too much, that you shouldn't pursue that.

我在这个播客上多次使用过这句话，但我总是会想起这句话：“你害怕的洞穴里藏着你寻找的宝藏。”我很好奇你是否发现了一些当痛苦太严重时你不应该追求的东西。

A lot of people get into these places where their mental health gets hit, their physical health is hit, they're just doing work they should not, it's too much.

很多人进入这些地方，他们的心理健康受到影响，他们的身体健康受到影响，他们只是在做不应该做的工作，这太多了。

Is there anything there that you find it's just like, "Okay, maybe this is too much of discomfort"?

有没有什么东西让你觉得“好吧，也许这太不舒服了”？

Noam Lovinsky: I mean, I think about a couple of things.

诺姆·洛文斯基：我的意思是，我考虑了几件事。

I think in any situation you should be able to lean on one or two things that you're really strong at.

我认为在任何情况下你都应该能够依靠一两件你真正擅长的事情。

That can be the foundation that keeps you going while you learn the other things.

这可以成为你学习其他东西的同时让你继续前进的基础。

So just be wary of situations that are too net new.

因此，请警惕那些过于新鲜的情况。

Noam Lovinsky: There should be one or two important things as part of that job going into where you're like, "I got this.

诺姆·洛文斯基：作为这份工作的一部分，应该有一两件重要的事情让你觉得，“我明白了。

I know how to do this portion of it." So as an example, if you've never inherited a very large team and you work through how that works, but the product area that you're working on is one you're very familiar with what's necessary to be good in that product, whether it's really good sense of design or really good sense of analytical thinking, recommendation systems, what have you, there should be a couple of those things where you're like, "I got this.

我知道如何完成这一部分。”举个例子，如果你从未继承过一个非常大的团队，并且你了解它是如何运作的，但你正在从事的产品领域是你非常熟悉做好该产品所必需的东西，无论是真正良好的设计感还是真正良好的分析思维、推荐系统，你拥有什么，应该有一些你喜欢的东西，“我明白了。

These things are going to be a stretch, but these things, I feel like I've got a handle on how to do this.

这些事情将是一个延伸，但这些事情，我觉得我已经掌握了如何做到这一点。

I can always get better, but I feel like they're in my wheelhouse." And I think that tends to allow you to balance the pain with the areas that you already know and manage through in a more balanced and healthy way.

我总是可以变得更好，但我觉得他们在我的驾驶室里。”我认为这往往会让你平衡疼痛与你已经知道的领域，并以更平衡和健康的方式管理。

Lenny: It reminds me of that chart I think from flow of you want it to be challenging but not too challenging, and that's where you end up being most successful.

莱尼：这让我想起了那张图表，我认为从流程来看，你希望它具有挑战性，但不要太具有挑战性，这就是你最终最成功的地方。

Is there anything else, Noam, you want to share or leave listeners with before we get to our very exciting lightning round?

在我们开始激动人心的闪电回合之前，诺姆，您还有什么想与听众分享或留给听众的吗？

Noam Lovinsky: Yeah, I just think that maybe going back to where we first started, Lenny, work on the things that make you happy, that fill you up.

诺姆·洛文斯基：是的，我只是想也许回到我们最初开始的地方，莱尼，做那些让你快乐、让你充实的事情。

Life is short.

生命是短暂的。

We're all very lucky to be in this moment.

我们都很幸运能身处这一刻。

There's no reason to spend time on things that don't give you energy.

没有理由把时间花在不能给你能量的事情上。

There's so much to do out there.

那里有很多事情要做。

I think that's the main thing I would focus on.

我认为这是我要关注的主要事情。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

And even though there will be things that you have to do, I think it's important to try to find as much of that as you can because not everyone can just like, "Nah, I'm not going to do this work thing.

即使有些事情你必须做，我认为尽可能多地找到这些事情很重要，因为不是每个人都会喜欢，“不，我不会做这项工作。

I'm just going to go on a walk." But I think that's such an important point.

我只是要去散步。”但我认为这是非常重要的一点。

And we've talked about this actually a bunch on recent podcasts of just doing this energy audit where you pay attention to what gives you energy and what doesn't and try to do more and more -

我们在最近的播客中实际上已经讨论过很多关于能源审计的内容，其中你会注意什么能给你能量，什么不会，并尝试做越来越多的事情 -

Lenny: ...

莱尼：……

willing to do that again.

愿意再做一次。

With that, we reached a very exciting lightning round.

就这样，我们进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。

Are you ready?

你准备好了吗？

Lenny: First question, what are two or three books that you've recommended most to other people?

莱尼：第一个问题，你向其他人推荐最多的两三本书是什么？

Noam Lovinsky: I'm going to cheat on this one and I'm only going to give you one.

诺姆·洛文斯基（Noam Lovinsky）：我要在这个上作弊，而且我只会给你一个。

I'm only going to give you one because I don't want to cloud with any other.

我只会给你一个，因为我不想与其他任何混淆。

I recommend Build by Tony Fidel.

我推荐托尼·菲德尔的《Build》。

Other than it being a good book, one of the main reasons I recommend it is that my wife wrote it.

除了这是一本好书之外，我推荐它的主要原因之一是我妻子写的。

So she wrote it together with Tony.

所以她和托尼一起写了这本书。

And I got to see that experience.

我必须亲眼目睹这种经历。

She's a fantastic writer and Tony has a lot to learn from, so I recommend that book.

她是一位出色的作家，托尼有很多值得学习的地方，所以我推荐这本书。

I think that the part of it that was particularly inspiring to me to hear even more of the details that are in the book is just how many times he met failure before he made discoveries that are now driving so many of the things that we do.

我认为，对我来说，听到书中更多细节特别鼓舞人心的部分是，在他做出现在正在推动我们所做的许多事情的发现之前，他经历了多少次失败。

It's just a good reminder to keep at it and do the thing that really gives you that energy because eventually you can make that incredible discovery.

这只是一个很好的提醒，让你坚持下去，做真正能给你能量的事情，因为最终你可以做出令人难以置信的发现。

Lenny: Next question, do you have a favorite recent movie or TV show that you've really enjoyed?

莱尼：下一个问题，你最近有最喜欢的电影或电视节目吗？

Noam Lovinsky: I really like For All Mankind, if you've seen that on Apple TV.

Noam Lovinsky：我真的很喜欢《为了全人类》，如果你在 Apple TV 上看过的话。

And then I just finished the last season of Fargo.

然后我刚刚看完《冰血暴》最后一季。

Every single season of that series I think is fantastic.

我认为该系列的每一季都很棒。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

For All Mankind though, last season, not as amazing a consensus that I agree with, but worth watching.

不过，对于全人类来说，上一季，这并不是我所同意的令人惊奇的共识，但值得一看。

Lenny: Next question.

莱尼：下一个问题。

Do you have a favorite interview question that you like to ask candidates?

您有最喜欢问候选人的面试问题吗？

Noam Lovinsky: I generally like interview questions that allow us to kind of do some work together, so I'm a little bit less on the behavioral "tell me about a time when" sort of stuff and more on the "Let's work a product problem together." It could be anything from like, "Let's design an alarm clock for children." Or lately I've been using one.

诺姆·洛文斯基（Noam Lovinsky）：我通常喜欢让我们一起做一些工作的面试问题，所以我不太关注“告诉我某个时间”之类的行为问题，而更多地关注“让我们一起解决产品问题”。它可以是任何东西，比如“让我们为孩子们设计一个闹钟”。或者最近我一直在使用一个。

"Given where technology is at, if we were to rebuild email, how might we do that?" I just feel like getting into it and getting into the details and really watching each other exercise our craft I think is really important.

“考虑到技术的现状，如果我们要重建电子邮件，我们会怎么做？”我只是想深入了解细节，真正观察彼此练习我们的技巧，我认为这非常重要。

I have a whole podcast one time, if you're ready, about how most people don't know how to do leadership recruiting.

如果你准备好的话，我有一整套播客，内容是关于大多数人如何不知道如何进行领导力招聘。

And I feel like as I've advanced in my career, the interviews for some reason get easier and actually I can evaluate less about who I am as a product leader and whatnot.

我觉得随着我职业生涯的进步，面试出于某种原因变得更容易，实际上我可以更少地评估我作为产品领导者的身份以及诸如此类的事情。

But yeah, those are the sorts of interview questions that I typically like.

但是，是的，这些是我通常喜欢的面试问题。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

Is there favorite product you've recently discovered that you really love?

您最近发现有没有您真正喜欢的最喜欢的产品？

Noam Lovinsky: It's not recent, but I was a very early user of Arc and I really love Arc.

Noam Lovinsky：这并不是最近发生的事情，但我是 Arc 的早期用户，而且我真的很喜欢 Arc。

Lenny: Your window right now is inside Arc.

Lenny：你的窗口现在在 Arc 里面。

I also love Arc.

我也喜欢阿克。

We had Josh on the podcast.

我们的播客中有乔什。

Lenny: Just watching the onboarding experience of Arc alone as a product person is worth your time.

Lenny：作为一名产品人员，光是观看 Arc 的入职体验就值得花时间。

Noam Lovinsky: Totally.

诺姆·洛文斯基：完全可以。

I love the animation when you download something.

我喜欢下载东西时的动画。

I mean just like all of the little things.

我的意思是就像所有的小事一样。

And if Josh is listening, we would like to get Grammarly to work better with Arc, so please hit me up because I think there's a few things that the Arc browser is doing that make it hard to get Grammarly to work either on the client or in the browser.

如果 Josh 正在倾听，我们希望 Grammarly 能够更好地与 Arc 配合使用，所以请联系我，因为我认为 Arc 浏览器正在做的一些事情使得 Grammarly 很难在客户端或浏览器中工作。

Lenny: Two more questions.

莱尼：还有两个问题。

Do you have a favorite life motto that you often repeat to yourself, share with friends or family either in work or in life that you find useful?

您是否有一条您认为有用的、在工作或生活中经常对自己重复、与朋友或家人分享的最喜欢的人生格言？

Noam Lovinsky: Gosh, for those that know me, this is going to share so much of my personality.

诺姆·洛文斯基：天哪，对于那些了解我的人来说，这将分享我的很多个性。

I think the first thing that comes to mind is, we are meant to struggle.

我认为首先想到的是，我们注定要奋斗。

I just feel like through struggle is how we get better, how good things happen, how bonds form, and so I don't shy away from that kind of life experience.

我只是觉得，通过奋斗，我们才能变得更好，美好的事情就会发生，纽带就会形成，所以我不会回避这种生活经历。

Lenny: I'm going to guess that you're Jewish.

莱尼：我猜你是犹太人。

I'm also Jewish.

我也是犹太人。

That feels like a very Jewish thing to say.

这感觉像是一句非常犹太人的话。

I love it.

我喜欢它。

Noam Lovinsky: How would you guess, Lenny?

诺姆·洛文斯基：你猜怎么着，莱尼？

It's literally written on my face.

它确实写在我的脸上。

Yeah.

是的。

Lenny: Perfect.

莱尼：完美。

Last question.

最后一个问题。

As the chief product officer at Grammarly, I'm curious what word you most often misspell?

作为 Grammarly 的首席产品官，我很好奇您最常拼错哪个单词？

Noam Lovinsky: T-E-H.

诺姆·洛文斯基：T-E-H。

Yeah, exactly.

是的，完全正确。

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

是啊，是啊，是啊。

Lenny: Oh, man.

莱尼：哦，伙计。

Well, I find I misspell every word.

嗯，我发现我每个字都拼错了。

Lenny: I'm a terrible speller.

莱尼：我的拼写很糟糕。

I'm thankful for my...

我很感谢我的...

Oh, sorry.

哦，抱歉。

Go ahead.

继续吧。

Noam Lovinsky: I was about to say I have a product for you that can help with your spelling if you want.

诺姆·洛文斯基（Noam Lovinsky）：我想说的是，如果您愿意，我有一款可以帮助您拼写的产品。

Lenny: I am an active Grammarly user.

Lenny：我是一名活跃的 Grammarly 用户。

Not only that.

不仅如此。

I use every product you've worked on, I realize.

我意识到我使用了你开发过的所有产品。

Lenny: Obviously, Meta and mostly Instagram of the Meta products.

Lenny：显然，Meta 以及主要是 Meta 产品的 Instagram。

And obviously Grammarly now and YouTube.

显然还有 Grammarly now 和 YouTube。

I have a YouTube channel.

我有一个 YouTube 频道。

Check it out.

检查一下。

Subscribe and follow.

订阅并关注。

And Thumbtack.

还有图钉。

My wife is a big Thumbtack user.

我的妻子是图钉的忠实用户。

We found many pros on Thumbtack from all kinds of parts of the world.

我们在 Thumbtack 上找到了来自世界各地的许多专业人士。

Lenny: Noam, thank you so much for being here.

莱尼：诺姆，非常感谢你来到这里。

Two final questions.

最后两个问题。

Where can folks find you online if they want to reach out and how can listeners be useful to you?

如果人们想要联系您，可以在哪里找到您？听众如何对您有用？

Noam Lovinsky: Yeah.

诺姆·洛文斯基：是的。

I'm pretty much @noaml everywhere online, so Twitter is probably the easiest.

我几乎在网上到处都是@noaml，所以 Twitter 可能是最简单的。

My DMs are open.

我的 DM 已开放。

And then how people can be useful to me is please use Grammarly, provide any feedback that you might have.

然后，人们如何对我有用，请使用 Grammarly，提供您可能有的任何反馈。

And honestly, if I can be helpful in almost any way, feel free to reach out.

老实说，如果我能以任何方式提供帮助，请随时与我联系。

I often will take those conversations and build those connections, and that is always very helpful for me as well.

我经常进行这些对话并建立这些联系，这对我也总是非常有帮助。

Lenny: No, thank you again so much for being here.

莱尼：不，再次非常感谢您来到这里。

Noam Lovinsky: Of course.

诺姆·洛文斯基：当然。

Have a good one, Lenny.

祝你玩得开心，莱尼。

Lenny: Thank you so much for listening.

莱尼：非常感谢您的聆听。

If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.

如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.

您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。