The 10 traits of great PMs, AI, and Slack’s approach to product | Noah Weiss (Slack, Google)

Noah Weiss: We have this mental metaphor that we talk a lot about, getting to the next hill.

诺亚·韦斯：我们经常谈论这个心理隐喻，即到达下一座山。

The actual wording is "Take bigger boulder bets." I think teams can often get lost crawling up that hill, not realizing that there's a huge, incredibly beautiful range behind it where we've over time freighted new teams from scratch that incubated in a new area before the areas mature.

实际的措辞是“赌更大的巨石”。我认为团队在爬上那座山时经常会迷路，没有意识到它后面有一个巨大的、令人难以置信的美丽范围，随着时间的推移，我们从头开始运送新团队，在新区域成熟之前在新区域中孵化。

Noah Weiss: We did that with a lot of these native audiovisual products like huddles and clips really in the pandemic because our customers were demanding it from us.

诺亚·韦斯（Noah Weiss）：我们在大流行期间使用了很多本地视听产品（例如 huddles 和 Clips）来做到这一点，因为我们的客户要求我们这样做。

I think in the AI space, we're trying to hear from customers, what do you wish Slack could do if it had these new superpowers?

我认为在人工智能领域，我们正在尝试听取客户的意见，如果 Slack 拥有这些新的超能力，您希望 Slack 能做什么？

Let's incubate a couple teams or prototype, give them space to run and pilot and then get something to launch that's amazing.

让我们孵化几个团队或原型，给他们运行和试点的空间，然后推出一些令人惊叹的东西。

Blows people away.

把人吹走了。

That's the formula that we've seen.

That's the formula that we've seen.

Lenny: Welcome to Lenny's podcast where I interview world-class product leaders and growth experts to learn from their hard one experiences building and growing today's most successful products.

莱尼：欢迎来到莱尼的播客，我在其中采访了世界一流的产品领导者和增长专家，从他们构建和发展当今最成功产品的艰辛经验中学习。

Today my guest is Noah Weiss.

Today my guest is Noah Weiss.

Noah is chief product officer at Slack where he spent the last seven years.

Noah 是 Slack 的首席产品官，过去七年他都在 Slack 工作。

Prior to that he was head of product at Foursquare, which is near and dear to my heart as you'll hear at the top of this episode.

在此之前，他曾担任 Foursquare 的产品主管，正如您在本集开头所听到的那样，我对这家公司非常重视。

Prior to that, he was a PM at Google and at Fog Creek Software.

在此之前，他曾担任 Google 和 Fog Creek Software 的产品经理。

Lenny: In our conversation we cover the 10 traits of great product managers, how to work effectively with strongly opinionated and product-minded founders, what Noah has learned about working effectively with AI in your product over his last 15 years at Google and Foursquare and now Slack.

Lenny：在我们的谈话中，我们讨论了优秀产品经理的 10 个特质，如何与固执己见和具有产品意识的创始人有效地合作，Noah 在过去 15 年的 Google、Foursquare 和现在的 Slack 工作中学到了如何在产品中有效地使用人工智能。

We talk about a process called Complaint Storms that helps Slack build better product.

我们讨论了一个名为“投诉风暴”的流程，它可以帮助 Slack 构建更好的产品。

Plus, what he is learned from Slack's self-service business plateauing back in 2019 and how they turned it around and what they took away from that experience.

另外，他从 2019 年 Slack 自助服务业务的停滞期中学到了什么，以及他们如何扭转局面，以及从这次经历中得到了什么。

Lenny: Also, how he thinks about competition with Microsoft Teams and with Discord.

Lenny：另外，他如何看待与 Microsoft Teams 和 Discord 的竞争。

Also, a bunch of new data advice, which I found very helpful.

此外，还有一些新的数据建议，我发现它们非常有帮助。

This was such a great in-depth conversation about all things product and leadership, and I'm really excited for you to hear this episode.

这是一次关于产品和领导力的深入对话，我真的很高兴您能听到这一集。

With that, I bring you Noah Weiss after a short word from our sponsors.

在我们的赞助商简短发言后，我为您带来了诺亚·韦斯 (Noah Weiss)。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Sidebar.

莱尼：这一集是由 Sidebar 为您带来的。

Are you looking to land your next big career move or start your own thing?

您是否正在寻找下一个重大职业变动或开始自己的事业？

One of the most effective ways to create a big leap in your career and something that worked really well for me a few years ago is to create a personal board of directors, a trusted peer group where you can discuss challenges you're having, get career advice, and just gut check how you're thinking about your work, your career, and your life.

实现职业生涯重大飞跃的最有效方法之一是创建一个个人董事会，这是一个值得信赖的同行小组，几年前对我来说非常有效，您可以在其中讨论您遇到的挑战，获得职业建议，并直观地检查您对工作、职业和生活的看法。

Lenny: This has been a big trajectory changer for me, but it's hard to build this trusted group.

莱尼：这对我来说是一个巨大的轨迹改变，但建立这个值得信赖的团队很困难。

With Sidebar, senior leaders are matched with highly vetted, private supportive peer groups to lean on for unbiased opinions, diverse perspectives and raw feedback.

通过 Sidebar，高级领导者可以与经过严格审查的私人支持性同行团体相匹配，以获取公正的意见、不同的观点和原始反馈。

Everyone has their own zone of genius.

Everyone has their own zone of genius.

Together, we're better prepared to navigate professional pitfalls leading to more responsibility, faster promotions, and bigger impact.

我们齐心协力，可以更好地应对职业陷阱，从而承担更多的责任、更快的晋升和更大的影响。

Lenny: Guided by world-class programming and facilitation, Sidebar enables you to get focused tactical feedback at every step of your journey.

Lenny：在世界一流的编程和便利指导下，Sidebar 使您能够在旅程的每一步获得集中的战术反馈。

If you're a listener of this podcast, you're likely already driven and committed to growth.

如果您是此播客的听众，您可能已经有动力并致力于成长。

A Sidebar personal board of directors is the missing piece to catalyze that journey.

侧栏个人董事会是催化这一旅程所缺失的部分。

Why spend a decade finding your people when you can meet them at sidebar today?

当您今天就可以在侧边栏见到您的人时，为什么还要花十年的时间来寻找他们呢？

Jump the growing wait list of thousands of leaders from top tech companies by visiting sidebar.com/lenny to learn more.

请访问 sidebar.com/lenny 以了解更多信息，从而跳过由顶级科技公司的数千名领导者组成的不断增长的候补名单。

That's sidebar.com/lenny.

这是 sidebar.com/lenny。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Superhuman.

莱尼：这一集是由超人为您带来的。

How much time do you spend in email each day?

您每天花多少时间在电子邮件上？

How about your team?

你的团队怎么样？

You may not realize this, but your email tools are wasting your time.

您可能没有意识到这一点，但您的电子邮件工具正在浪费您的时间。

Superhuman is blazingly fast email for high performing teams.

Super human 是一款适合高绩效团队的超快电子邮件。

Built to work with Gmail and Outlook, teams who use Superhuman spend half the time in their inboxes respond to twice the number of emails and save over four hours a week.

专为与 Gmail 和 Outlook 配合使用而设计，使用 Super human 的团队可以将一半的时间花在收件箱上，回复两倍数量的电子邮件，每周节省四个多小时。

Lenny: That's over a month of save time per year.

莱尼：每年可以节省一个多月的时间。

With Superhuman, you can split your inbox into streams or VIPs, team members and emails from your favorite products to reduce context switching and make sure you never miss an important email.

借助 Super human，您可以将收件箱分成流或 VIP、团队成员和来自您喜爱的产品的电子邮件，以减少上下文切换并确保您不会错过任何重要电子邮件。

You can start reminders if you don't hear back so that you can follow up and never drop the ball on an email thread.

如果您没有收到回复，您可以启动提醒，以便您可以跟进，永远不会在电子邮件线程中犯错。

You can also work faster than ever before with powerful AI features like writing, editing, summarizing and even translating.

您还可以利用强大的人工智能功能（例如写作、编辑、总结甚至翻译）比以往更快地工作。

Lenny: Join the ranks of the most productive teams and unleash the power of Superhuman.

莱尼：加入最有生产力的团队行列，释放超人的力量。

Try one month free at superhuman.com/lenny.

请访问 super human.com/lenny 免费试用一个月。

That's superhuman.com/lenny.

那是 super human.com/lenny。

Noah, welcome to the podcast.

Noah, welcome to the podcast.

Noah Weiss: Thank you for having me.

Noah Weiss: Thank you for having me.

I'm excited to finally get to join and been a longtime listener.

我很高兴终于能够加入并成为长期的听众。

Lenny: I feel the same way in reverse.

莱尼：反过来我也有同样的感觉。

I've been really excited that you're finally on the podcast.

我很高兴你终于出现在播客上。

I don't know if you know this, but this is actually going to be the last podcast I'm recording before I go on pat leave.

我不知道你是否知道这一点，但这实际上将是我在休假之前录制的最后一个播客。

This is going to play while I'm on break.

This is going to play while I'm on break.

Coincidentally, you're actually just returning from pat leave is what I just learned.

巧合的是，我刚刚才得知，你实际上刚刚休假回来。

Lenny: Let me ask you a question.

Lenny: Let me ask you a question.

What advice do you have for someone about to enter the beginning of baby life from someone that is exiting that and going back to work?

对于那些即将进入婴儿期并重返工作岗位的人，您有什么建议？

Noah Weiss: First off, I mean obviously congratulations, you're about to go on.

Noah Weiss：首先，我的意思显然是恭喜你，你即将继续下去。

A rollercoaster of emotion, sleep and everything else.

情绪、睡眠和其他一切都像坐过山车一样。

I literally went back to work two days ago.

I literally went back to work two days ago.

I think my, maybe, advice about being a new parent is better than my advice about being at PM right now.

我认为我对成为新父母的建议可能比我对现在担任总理的建议更好。

Here are the three ...

这是三个...

My wife and I wind up coming up with three maxims that we want to be using throughout the first two months to keep ourselves grounded.

我和我的妻子最终想出了三条格言，我们希望在头两个月中使用它们来保持脚踏实地。

Noah Weiss: First one, I would say a little bit better every day.

诺亚·韦斯：第一个，我想说的是每天都进步一点。

No matter how many books you read and how much money ouster you consume, there's nothing like actually doing it.

无论你读了多少书，花了多少钱，没有什么比实际行动更好的了。

It's a physical thing being a new parent.

It's a physical thing being a new parent.

Getting a little bit better every day, giving yourself permission to be like that didn't go great and that's okay.

每天都变得更好一点，允许自己成为这样的人并不太好，但这没关系。

That's number one.

这是第一。

Noah Weiss: Number two, don't over extrapolate from the early days.

诺亚·韦斯：第二，不要从早期过度推断。

The fourth trimester is a real thing.

第四个三个月是真实存在的。

These babies come out.

这些婴儿出来了。

They're not fully baked.

它们没有完全烘烤。

They can't even support their own heads.

他们连自己的头都支撑不住。

If you try to extrapolate everything, the next 18 years are going to be the first 18 days, it's going to be sobering.

如果你试图推断一切，接下来的 18 年将是前 18 天，这将是发人深省的。

Keep that perspective.

保持这种观点。

They develop so much every week, part of the fun.

他们每周都会进步很多，这是乐趣的一部分。

Noah Weiss: Then the third thing, which I got advice from this from a good friend is like you got to fully get into it as a parent.

诺亚·韦斯：然后第三件事，我从一位好朋友那里得到的建议是，作为父母，你必须完全投入其中。

There's nothing that replaces.

没有什么可以替代的。

Actually, you got to change the diapers.

其实，你该换尿布了。

You got to do the feeds.

你必须做提要。

When they're up, even though they can't talk, you got to talk to them.

当他们起床时，即使他们不能说话，你也必须和他们说话。

You got to listen to what they're saying and just be fully present near the moment.

你必须倾听他们在说什么，并在此时此刻全神贯注。

Noah Weiss: I realized for myself, and then basically at full digital detox.

诺亚·韦斯（Noah Weiss）：我自己意识到了，然后基本上完全戒掉了数字化。

You saw how long it took for me to reply to your emails.

您看到我花了多长时间才回复您的电子邮件。

I was like, "Throw the devices away.

我当时想，“把这些设备扔掉。

Just fully with our daughter, , and our family." I feel like it was so much more rewarding.

和我们的女儿以及我们的家人在一起。”我觉得这更有意义。

I felt really connected with her now after these couple months.

几个月后，我感觉自己和她真的有了联系。

It's a crazy time.

这是一个疯狂的时刻。

You're going to really love it.

你一定会爱上它的。

It's going to drive you mad at that times as well.

那时它也会让你发疯。

That's all of it.

这就是全部。

Lenny: All right.

莱尼：好吧。

We're going to be pivoting this podcast into a parenting podcast.

我们将把这个播客转变为育儿播客。

This is awesome advice.

这是很棒的建议。

I wrote everything you just said on this little post-it as you're talking.

当你说话时，我把你刚才所说的一切都写在了这张小便利贴上。

I'm going to put that up in our nursery and see how it all goes.

我要把它放在我们的托儿所里，看看一切进展如何。

One thing that's tough about my career path in this weird life is I don't get a nice pat leave, paid pat leave from a big company.

在这种奇怪的生活中，我的职业道路上的一个艰难的事情是我没有从一家大公司得到很好的带薪休假。

Lenny: I've actually been working on stacking guest post and podcast ahead of my leave so that I can actually, as exactly as you said, just get fully into it.

莱尼：实际上，在我休假之前，我一直在努力积累客座帖子和播客，这样我实际上就可以像你所说的那样，完全投入其中。

Lenny: Yeah.

莱尼：是的。

I have awesome guest posts coming.

我即将迎来精彩的客座帖子。

All these podcasts are backlogged, so I'm hoping it all works out.

所有这些播客都积压了，所以我希望一切顺利。

Noah Weiss: That's a smart way to do it.

诺亚·韦斯：这是一个聪明的方法。

Yeah.

是的。

Lenny: On a totally different topic, you're ahead of product at Foursquare.

Lenny：在一个完全不同的主题上，您领先于 Foursquare 的产品。

I don't know if you know this.

我不知道你是否知道这一点。

I actually built a startup on Foursquare's API.

我实际上是在 Foursquare 的 API 上建立了一家初创公司。

It's a company called Localmind.

这是一家名为 Localmind 的公司。

For folks that don't know about it, the way it worked is basically let you talk to someone, checked in on Foursquare anywhere in the world if you're thinking about going there.

对于那些不了解它的人来说，它的工作方式基本上是让你与某人交谈，如果你考虑去那里的话，可以在世界任何地方的 Foursquare 上查看。

Lenny: You could be like, "Hey, is this bar fun right now?

莱尼：你可能会说，“嘿，这个酒吧现在好玩吗？

What's happening there?" Before you actually show up.

那里发生什么事了？”在你真正出现之前。

We ended up selling the company to Airbnb.

我们最终将公司卖给了 Airbnb。

Ended up not being a big problem for enough people and that's how I ended up at Airbnb.

最终对于足够多的人来说这并不是一个大问题，这就是我最终加入 Airbnb 的原因。

But it was quite magical and API was amazing.

但它非常神奇，API 也很棒。

I guess I just want to say thank you for building an awesome product and awesome API.

我想我只是想说谢谢你们构建了一个很棒的产品和很棒的 AP​​I。

Noah Weiss: Thank you for being a developer on top of the ecosystem.

Noah Weiss：感谢您成为生态系统之上的开发人员。

I mean it's interesting with Foursquare.

我的意思是 Foursquare 很有趣。

I will talk about this I'm sure later.

我确信稍后我会谈论这个。

I feel like I have more lessons learned and more scar tissue from the crazy up and down of ...

我觉得我从疯狂的起起落落中学到了更多的教训和更多的疤痕组织......

I don't know what.

我不知道是什么。

It was 2010 to 2015 roughly.

大概是2010年到2015年。

I think there's something actually where you learn more from the things that don't fully work out or don't quite achieve what you wanted to achieve.

我认为实际上，你可以从那些没有完全解决或没有完全实现你想要实现的目标的事情中学到更多东西。

Noah Weiss: You actually have a feedback loop where you get a lot of negative signal about like, "Okay.

诺亚·韦斯：实际上，你有一个反馈循环，你会收到很多负面信号，比如“好吧。

That didn't work.

那行不通。

That didn't work.

那行不通。

What can I actually learn, take away from that?" It's still great.

我能从中真正学到什么、学到什么？”还是很棒的。

I still love using Foursquare.

我仍然喜欢使用 Foursquare。

I think we got caught in the death star of Instagram's ascent back in 2012, 2013.

我认为我们在 2012、2013 年就陷入了 Instagram 崛起的死星之中。

But I hope a product like that exists forever in the future and I'm glad you got to build the company, landed Airbnb through it.

但我希望这样的产品在未来永远存在，我很高兴你建立了这家公司，并通过它登陆了 Airbnb。

It's a great story.

这是一个很棒的故事。

Lenny: Looking back at Foursquare, do you think there was a path to building a massive consumer app type business or is that just never going to work out?

Lenny：回顾 Foursquare，您是否认为有一条途径可以建立大规模的消费者应用程序类型业务，或者这永远不会成功？

I know they went in direction of B2B data business.

我知道他们的方向是 B2B 数据业务。

I guess was there a path or was it just like, "No. That was never going to work out?"

我想是否有一条路，或者只是像“不。那永远不会成功？”

Noah Weiss: It's tricky.

诺亚·韦斯：这很棘手。

I mean I'm not going to do 30-minute post, because I probably bore everyone.

我的意思是我不会发布 30 分钟的帖子，因为我可能会让大家感到厌烦。

But it's not about this.

但这不是这个。

We've all thought about this a lot on the early team there.

我们在早期团队中都对此进行了很多思考。

I think the biggest probably lesson learned, frankly, is that we were really close with the Instagram folks early on.

坦率地说，我认为最大的教训可能是我们很早就与 Instagram 人员关系密切。

They were big developers on our platform.

他们是我们平台上的大开发商。

They used the Foursquare API before they were bought by Facebook.

他们在被 Facebook 收购之前就使用了 Foursquare API。

Noah Weiss: I think in hindsight we were a little bit mistaken to believe that the idea that the atomic unit would be a person talking about a place that they're at and you have to have a physical place to tie it to versus a person sharing a moment or an experience that they're having in the world.

诺亚·韦斯：我认为事后看来，我们有点错误地认为原子单元是一个人在谈论他们所在的地方，并且你必须有一个物理位置将其与它联系起来，而不是一个人在分享他们在世界上的时刻或经历。

Sometimes that might have a place connected to it.

有时这可能有一个与之相关的地方。

Noah Weiss: I think that one change in framer on what you would say a customer actually wanted to do, that probably was the thing that took this away on the social side.

诺亚·韦斯（Noah Weiss）：我认为，对于你所说的客户真正想做的事情，框架的一个变化可能就是在社交方面消除这一点的原因。

I think on the more local discovery side, it's actually what people wind up be using the product much more for over time getting personalized recommendations and getting tips when you go to a place and all the push notifications.

我认为，在更本地化的发现方面，这实际上是人们最终更多地使用该产品的原因，因为随着时间的推移，当您去某个地方和所有推送通知时获得个性化推荐和提示。

Noah Weiss: Again, it was hard to stay ahead, I think specifically of Google, because they had billion plus Google Maps users distributed on Android and iOS.

诺亚·韦斯（Noah Weiss）：再说一次，保持领先是很困难的，我特别想到谷歌，因为他们有十亿多谷歌地图用户分布在 Android 和 iOS 上。

Even though they might only take a couple years, eventually they would wind up replicating a lot of the functionality and then I think it was hard to regain that momentum.

尽管他们可能只需要几年的时间，但最终他们会复制很多功能，然后我认为很难恢复这种势头。

Much of this stuff is luck and timing and just coincidences of history.

这些事情很大程度上是运气和时机以及历史的巧合。

Noah Weiss: I think there was a path.

诺亚·韦斯：我认为有一条路。

I think in the end we lost their social sales and then Google was able to catch up on the utility side.

我认为最终我们失去了他们的社交销售，然后谷歌能够在公用事业方面迎头赶上。

Now the company's built a really valuable B2B API company which offers a story.

现在，该公司已经建立了一家真正有价值的 B2B API 公司，并提供了一个故事。

I mean Slack is in some ways a pivot, obviously, from a consumer company to a B2B company.

我的意思是，Slack 在某些方面显然是从消费者公司到 B2B 公司的枢纽。

But that that's my mini postmortem, what could have been with Foursquare.

但这只是我的小型事后分析，Foursquare 可能会出现这样的情况。

Lenny: It's interesting how many consumer companies pivot to B2B because it turns out that's where the money ends up being.

Lenny：有趣的是，有很多消费品公司转向 B2B，因为事实证明这就是资金的最终来源。

Noah Weiss: Yeah.

诺亚·韦斯：是的。

I think the feedback to you get from our people willing to pay for the product that you're building is so much faster than can I build a large-scale consumer business and when they hope to have enough reach to then slap ads onto it.

我认为，我们愿意为您正在构建的产品付费的人们向您提供的反馈比我建立大规模消费者业务以及当他们希望有足够的影响力然后在其上投放广告时要快得多。

That's a much more of a try to hit a home run and hope it works out.

这更像是一次打出本垒打并希望能成功的尝试。

But you don't really know if you're doing it along the way.

但你并不真正知道自己是否一路走来。

Yeah.

是的。

I think B2B is a easier to have a more incremental, successfully business than pure consumer.

我认为 B2B 是比纯粹的消费者更容易实现增量、成功的业务。

Lenny: Okay.

莱尼：好的。

Speaking of Foursquare, Dennis Crowley was the CEO and founder, a very strong product-minded founder.

说到 Foursquare，丹尼斯·克劳利 (Dennis Crowley) 是首席执行官兼创始人，是一位非常具有产品意识的创始人。

I know you've worked with a number of very strong product-minded founders including Stewart Butterfield, Dennis, obviously we just talked about, maybe others.

我知道你曾与许多非常有产品意识的创始人合作过，包括斯图尔特·巴特菲尔德（Stewart Butterfield）、丹尼斯（Dennis），显然我们刚刚谈到过，也许还有其他人。

I'm curious what you've learned as a product leader working with very opinionated founders.

我很好奇作为一名产品领导者，你在与固执己见的创始人共事时学到了什么。

Lenny: I think this is interesting not just as a product leader working with very product-minded CEOs, but also as a first PM at a startup you're often put in this tough spot of just the founders just telling you what to do and you have to go build it versus having a lot of say in agency.

Lenny：我认为这很有趣，不仅作为产品领导者与非常有产品意识的首席执行官一起工作，而且作为初创公司的第一位产品经理，你经常陷入这样的困境：创始人只是告诉你要做什么，你必须去构建它，而不是在代理中有很多发言权。

I'm curious what you've learned about working and being successful in that position, which is often really hard.

我很好奇你在这个职位上工作并取得成功学到了什么，这通常非常困难。

Noah Weiss: I would say to folks in general, if you're joining company and the CEO does the role that is your functional area of expertise, it's probably the area where you'll learn the most because they're hopefully world class at it.

诺亚·韦斯（Noah Weiss）：我会对一般人说，如果你加入公司并且首席执行官担任的角色是你的专业知识领域，那么这可能是你学到最多的领域，因为他们希望在这方面是世界一流的。

But also, one will you'll be the most frustrated at times because you're going to feel like you have less agency.

但同时，有时你也会感到最沮丧，因为你会觉得自己的能动性减弱了。

You should just know that going into it.

你应该只知道进入它。

Noah Weiss: If you go to company to run by a former marketer and you're in marketing, they'll probably want to have a lot of say and influence over that.

诺亚·韦斯：如果你去一家由前营销人员经营的公司，并且你从事营销工作，他们可能希望对此有很多发言权和影响力。

I think just going into knowing that is good.

我认为只要了解这一点就很好。

Looking back, I would say probably two main things stand out of what's really worked with both Dennis and Stewart, not just for me but I think for the teams that work with him as well.

回顾过去，我想说，在与丹尼斯和斯图尔特真正合作的事情中，可能有两件主要的事情突出，不仅对我来说，而且我认为对与他一起工作的团队也是如此。

Noah Weiss: The first is, I think as much as possible, I think maybe we'll talk about this a little bit later as well, is getting to the point where you have alignment on the principles for what it means to build a great product of that company.

诺亚·韦斯：首先，我想尽可能地，我想也许我们稍后也会讨论这个问题，就是要在原则上保持一致，以构建该公司的出色产品。

Not just about if the intuition and tasting gut, but how do you distill that to principles that become the language of the company so that everybody else can start thinking through a similar frame or similar lens when you're designing a product.

不仅仅是直觉和品味直觉，还包括如何将其提炼成原则，成为公司的语言，以便其他人在设计产品时可以开始通过类似的框架或类似的镜头进行思考。

Noah Weiss: Because otherwise it can feel a little bit Goldilocks every time a team builds something, they take it to the CEO.

诺亚·韦斯：否则，每次团队开发出一些东西时，他们都会把它交给首席执行官，这会让人感觉有点金发姑娘的感觉。

CEO is like, "No, not quite right.

首席执行官说：“不，不太正确。

Again, no, not exactly that." Then you don't have the language to actually have a more constructive review.

再说一遍，不，不完全是这样。”那么你就没有语言来真正进行更有建设性的评论。

Then doing that at the little strategy as well.

然后在小策略上也这样做。

I think the product founder CEO is always going to be the holder of the vision for the company.

我认为产品创始人兼首席执行官始终是公司愿景的持有者。

I'm sure at Airbnb.

我确信在爱彼迎。

I imagine Brian was very much like that as well.

我想布莱恩也很像这样。

Noah Weiss: I think it's actually great to say, "Okay.

诺亚·韦斯：我认为说“好吧。

The overall vision for the company, is it the responsibility of any one team to have everyone buy into that vision, but then to have space for teams to be able to actually do creative work, do explorations because you know that it's aligned with that high level vision."

公司的总体愿景是，任何一个团队都有责任让每个人都认同这一愿景，然后为团队提供空间，让他们能够真正进行创造性工作、进行探索，因为你知道它与高层愿景是一致的。”

Noah Weiss: If you can get that alignment and you can get those principles as the common language of what creative software looks like, I think you can have a really good working relationship.

诺亚·韦斯：如果你能够实现这种一致性，并且能够将这些原则作为创意软件的共同语言，我认为你们可以建立非常良好的工作关系。

Then the other bit I would just say is I think when to involve the founder CEO in a project is really important.

我想说的另一点是，我认为何时让创始人首席执行官参与项目非常重要。

The short version I think that works the best is almost like a U-curve where the X-axis is time and the Y-axis is level of involvement.

我认为效果最好的简短版本几乎就像 U 形曲线，其中 X 轴是时间，Y 轴是参与程度。

Noah Weiss: I think you want to get the founder CEO really involved early on, especially if it's a big new project, to make sure that there's strategic buy-in that you agree on the principle strategy and approaching you agree on the goals and the anti-goals, getting that to then the team can run and explore.

诺亚·韦斯（Noah Weiss）：我认为你希望创始人首席执行官尽早真正参与进来，特别是如果这是一个大型新项目，以确保获得战略支持，即你同意原则战略，并就目标和反目标达成一致，然后团队就可以运行和探索。

Then I think at the very end you want them to really be bought in that did you build something that's up to the quality ...

然后我认为最后你希望他们真正被购买，因为你是否建造了符合质量的东西......

the company?

公司？

Noah Weiss: Is this something that's going to customers, literally taste the soup.

诺亚·韦斯（Noah Weiss）：这是要给顾客的东西吗？实际上是品尝汤。

What's missing in it?

其中缺少什么？

I think at most companies that have a maniacally customer-focused founder, if you don't do that last step, it's going to be much more painful after you launch because they weren't part of that co-creation of the team.

我认为，在大多数拥有以客户为中心的创始人的公司中，如果你不执行最后一步，那么在你启动后会更加痛苦，因为他们不是团队共同创建的一部分。

I think that formula winds up working pretty well if you throw in that alignment on principles and envision.

我认为，如果你在原则和愿景上保持一致，这个公式最终会非常有效。

Lenny: That usually sounds nice in theory, but I often imagine you get to that final step and the founder is like, "What the hell is this?

莱尼：理论上这通常听起来不错，但我经常想象当你走到最后一步时，创始人会说，“这到底是什么？

This is not at all what I was hoping it be." Is there an example of that, that comes to mind where you maybe went through that and then it's just like, "No. That did not work out the way we expected" and if not, no problem.

这根本不是我所希望的。”是否有一个这样的例子，你可能会经历过这样的事情，然后就像是，“不。这没有按照我们预期的方式进行”，如果没有，也没有问题。

Noah Weiss: Yeah.

诺亚·韦斯：是的。

I mean I think that does happen.

我的意思是我认为这确实发生了。

The ship is maybe ...

这艘船或许是...

the end of the year is the level of engagement and often that last level of engagement, that's where there's actually the most rapid refinement that you're doing.

年底是参与度的水平，通常是最后的参与度，这实际上是你正在做的最快改进的地方。

I think what's important there is that hopefully you're refining in code and you're not still at static design mocks because using the software is so different than looking at what the software will visually appear.

我认为重要的是，希望您能够改进代码，并且不要仍然处于静态设计模拟中，因为使用软件与查看软件的视觉效果有很大不同。

Noah Weiss: I think what we would wind up doing with Stewart at Slack, for example, is we would get the entire development team, engineers design product, user research and Stewart together in a room and we almost do a bug bash together.

Noah Weiss：例如，我认为我们最终会在 Slack 与 Stewart 一起做的是，我们会让整个开发团队、设计产品的工程师、用户研究和 Stewart 一起在一个房间里，我们几乎一起进行 bug bash。

The idea was like, "We're doing it all together.

这个想法就像是，“我们一起做这一切。

We're trying to make the best product possible, making great softwares really messy and we're all trying to clean up the mess together."

我们正在努力打造最好的产品，让优秀的软件变得非常混乱，而我们都在努力共同清理混乱。”

Noah Weiss: Sometimes you might find things like, "Okay.

诺亚·韦斯：有时你可能会发现这样的话，“好吧。

This entry point really isn't working, maybe we have to move this entry point.

这个入口点确实不起作用，也许我们必须移动这个入口点。

That's maybe a bigger change." But I think often what you'd find is just all those bits of polish and refinement and doing the little delightful things that might otherwise be missing to raise that craft bar and doing a real collective way so it doesn't just feel like the team says.

这或许是一个更大的改变。”但我认为通常你会发现的只是所有这些打磨和改进，以及做一些令人愉快的小事情，否则这些事情可能会错过，以提高工艺标准并采取真正的集体方式，这样它就不会像团队所说的那样。

"We want to ship." The founder says, "No, it's not ready."

“我们想发货。”创始人说：“不，它还没有准备好。”

Noah Weiss: Ideally as a group you're saying, We want to get it to a bar that's going to delight our users and here's the gap from where we are today to what we want to shift." I think that mentality winds up being a lot more constructive, but that's not always easy to do.

诺亚·韦斯（Noah Weiss）：理想情况下，作为一个团队，你会说，我们希望把它带到一个能让我们的用户满意的酒吧，这就是我们今天的位置与我们想要改变的地方之间的差距。”我认为这种心态最终会更具建设性，但这并不总是那么容易做到。

Lenny: You talked about creating these principles, which is an awesome approach of just creating guardrails for the team so they think the way the founder and the head of product think.

Lenny：你谈到了创建这些原则，这是一种很棒的方法，为团队创建护栏，以便他们按照创始人和产品负责人的方式思考。

What are some examples of principles you have and had early on maybe at Foursquare or Slack?

您在 Foursquare 或 Slack 时拥有和早期拥有的原则有哪些？

Noah Weiss: I mean Slack I think is where we enshrined them much more because we scaled the org so much, more that we needed principles.

Noah Weiss：我的意思是 Slack，我认为我们更多地奉行这些原则，因为我们组织规模如此之大，以至于我们需要原则。

I think for us, they were really about unpacking just the mission, which for Slack is making people's working lives simpler, more pleasant, more productive.

我认为对我们来说，他们实际上只是为了解开使命，对于 Slack 来说，这就是让人们的工作生活更简单、更愉快、更高效。

That's the mission of the company.

这就是公司的使命。

The question is how does software help do that?

问题是软件如何帮助做到这一点？

That's what the principles or their answer.

这就是原则或他们的答案。

Noah Weiss: For us, we've got five, four principles.

诺亚·韦斯：对我们来说，我们有五、四个原则。

They've largely stayed the same.

他们基本上保持不变。

Some of the language has changed over the last couple of years.

在过去的几年里，一些语言发生了变化。

But at least for the last four or five years we've had these.

但至少在过去的四五年里我们已经有了这些。

The first is be a great host, which is all about that level of craft, the relentlessly saving people's steps.

首先是成为一名出色的主人，这一切都与技艺水平有关，不断地节省人们的脚步。

If you're, let's say, a host at Airbnb, it's like putting clean towels on the bed.

假设您是 Airbnb 的房东，这就像在床上放干净的毛巾一样。

No one has to wonder "Are these for me?" That type of foresight.

没有人会想“这些是给我的吗？”那种先见之明。

Lenny: That's actually a value at Airbnb.

Lenny：这实际上是 Airbnb 的价值所在。

Exactly.

正是如此。

Lenny: It's actually be a host at Airbnb is one of the four core values.

Lenny：实际上，成为 Airbnb 的房东是四大核心价值观之一。

Noah Weiss: Right.

诺亚·韦斯：对。

Maybe we borrowed that or someone was inspired by it.

也许我们借用了它，或者有人受到了它的启发。

But be a great host.

但要成为一名出色的主人。

It sounded aspirational.

听起来很有抱负。

I love that.

我喜欢那个。

Lenny: Yeah.

莱尼：是的。

Yeah.

是的。

It's a little bigger.

有点大了。

Noah Weiss: There's a famous user design book called Don't Make Me Think, which we sold the title of for our next principle.

Noah Weiss：有一本著名的用户设计书，名为《Don't Make Me Think》，我们将其书名作为我们的下一个原则出售。

That's really just about as people building the software, you know how it works so well.

这实际上就是当人们构建软件时，你知道它是如何运作得这么好的。

You care about all the nuances and intricacies and you really want your users to love it as much as you do.

您关心所有的细微差别和复杂性，并且您确实希望您的用户像您一样喜欢它。

But often actually, that owner's delusion that someone else will care as much about the software that you built as you do, prevents you from actually making something that's simple, comprehensible, understandable.

但事实上，通常情况下，所有者会误以为其他人会像你一样关心你构建的软件，这会阻止你真正制作出简单、易懂、易于理解的东西。

Noah Weiss: One of the core tenets of Slack is pretty complex under the surface, is how do we actually make people not have to think, how do we not reinvent the wheel if there's existing design patterns to use, how do we actually wind up designing for people who come from many different backgrounds and we cater to their needs in ways that don't make them have to customize it too much?

Noah Weiss：Slack 的核心原则之一在表面之下相当复杂，是我们如何真正让人们不必思考，如果有现有的设计模式可供使用，我们如何不重新发明轮子，我们如何真正为来自许多不同背景的人进行设计，并以不让他们需要太多定制的方式满足他们的需求？

Noah Weiss: There's a saying we also have, which is more clicks can often be okay.

Noah Weiss：我们也有一句话，点击次数越多越好。

You'll often have in optimization experimentation circles like, "Oh, every click, remove it." But I actually think in a lot of software when it's not transactional, helping people understand what they're doing, giving them confidence, helping them have trust in the steps, we've seen that that can actually be a better experience.

您经常会在优化实验圈中遇到这样的情况：“哦，每次点击，都将其删除。”但我实际上认为，在很多软件中，当它不是事务性的时，帮助人们理解他们在做什么，给他们信心，帮助他们信任步骤，我们已经看到这实际上可以是更好的体验。

That's another example of don't make it stressful, help people chill out when they're using this offer.

这是另一个例子，说明不要让它有压力，帮助人们在使用此优惠时放松下来。

That's the idea beyond that one.

这就是超越这个想法的想法。

Lenny: Shifting a little bit.

莱尼：稍微改变一下。

I know you guys have been working on a bunch of AI stuff at Slack.

我知道你们一直在 Slack 从事人工智能方面的工作。

I believe you've been working on AI related stuff for many years.

我相信您多年来一直致力于人工智能相关的工作。

I think at Google you worked on a lot of AI related products.

我认为您在谷歌开发了很多人工智能相关产品。

I feel like a lot of people are just getting into this and trying to figure out, "How do we integrate AI and ML and LLMs into our product and how do we not just waste our time chasing things?"

我觉得很多人刚刚进入这个领域并试图弄清楚，“我们如何将人工智能、机器学习和法学硕士集成到我们的产品中，以及我们如何不只是浪费时间去追逐事物？”

Lenny: I want to ask you just in your time working with AI over the many years you've been doing it and share a little bit about what you've been doing there.

Lenny：我想问一下您多年来从事人工智能工作的情况，并分享一些您一直在做的事情。

What are some things you've learned about how to be actually effective and build valuable products and not just fall for the shiny object issue and trap?

您学到了哪些关于如何真正有效并构建有价值的产品而不只是陷入闪亮对象问题和陷阱的知识？

Noah Weiss: I mean, it's almost 15 years ago now that I was working at Google in search on what later became called the knowledge graph.

Noah Weiss：我的意思是，差不多 15 年前了，当时我在 Google 从事后来被称为知识图谱的搜索工作。

This idea of building a canonical repository of information of people, places, things in the world and relationships between them.

这个想法是建立一个规范的信息库，存储世界上的人、地点、事物以及它们之间的关系。

Back then, it was a lot of the same ideas, but obviously the techniques.

当时，有很多相同的想法，但技术显然是相同的。

I have got a lot more mature.

我已经成熟了很多。

Noah Weiss: We used natural language processing to extract all this information from the web and try to build this database of facts.

Noah Weiss：我们使用自然语言处理从网络中提取所有这些信息，并尝试建立这个事实数据库。

An idea then was could you take queries, people have like, "What are the tallest fountains in Europe or what of the most popular beaches in Southern California?" Be able to actually give answers not just 10 blue links.

当时的一个想法是，你可以接受人们的询问吗？“欧洲最高的喷泉是什么，或者南加州最受欢迎的海滩是什么？”能够真正给出答案，而不仅仅是 10 个蓝色链接。

Noah Weiss: I think the thing that's really changed, it's super exciting in the last 6, 12 months with LMs and chat GPT and everything else is the idea that now you can take not just knowledge about the world but actually have natural language generation where suddenly the computer can talk back to you in a way that feels extremely human.

Noah Weiss：我认为真正改变的事情是，在过去的 6、12 个月里，LM 和聊天 GPT 以及其他一切都非常令人兴奋，因为现在你不仅可以获取有关世界的知识，而且实际上可以生成自然语言，突然之间，计算机可以以一种非常人性化的方式与你对话。

Then the creative applications of that are pretty massive and exciting.

那么它的创造性应用是相当巨大和令人兴奋的。

Noah Weiss: That's, I guess, the lineage there.

诺亚·韦斯：我想，这就是那里的血统。

I think from over the years back at Google at Foursquare, we did a lot of personalization and recommendations at Slack we have search and ML that's coming infused throughout the product.

我认为，从过去几年在 Google 的 Foursquare 开始，我们在 Slack 上做了很多个性化和推荐，我们的搜索和机器学习已融入到整个产品中。

I think a couple things come out as ...

我认为有几件事是......

I guess the principles that we've used over the years, back then at Google, one of the big ones, was that the promise of the UI has to match the quality of the underlying data, which is to say ...

我想我们多年来在谷歌使用的原则（其中一个重要原则）是用户界面的承诺必须与底层数据的质量相匹配，也就是说......

I think this is actually one of the failings of the various LMs right now is they all appear supremely confident even when they're completely hallucinating.

我认为这实际上是现在各种LM的失败之一，即使他们完全是幻觉，他们也显得非常自信。

Noah Weiss: I think that's going to be something that people are going to have to work on a lot, which is to figure out how to be not so faultless, to acknowledge when you're not sure, because otherwise, it undermines the trust people have in the system.

诺亚·韦斯：我认为这将是人们必须做很多工作的事情，那就是弄清楚如何不那么完美，在不确定时承认，否则，它会破坏人们对系统的信任。

Using a lot of transparency about where the data comes from so people can actually build credibility and the tools is really important.

对数据来源​​保持高度透明，这样人们才能真正建立可信度，而工具非常重要。

Noah Weiss: Then I think making sure that as you're designing the products that you have virtuous cycles that are naturally part of the product experience where you can get training data as a byproduct of people naturally using the software and then can make the model that you're building behind the scenes smarter, more accurate, more predictive.

Noah Weiss：那么我认为，在设计产品时，要确保拥有良性循环，这自然是产品体验的一部分，您可以获得训练数据，作为人们自然使用软件的副产品，然后可以使您在幕后构建的模型更智能、更准确、更具预测性。

Noah Weiss: A classic example of that would be Netflix back in the day, their rating system, they actually have a feedback loop from their customers then make the system better at predicting.

诺亚·韦斯：一个典型的例子是当时的 Netflix，他们的评级系统，他们实际上有来自客户的反馈循环，然后使系统能够更好地进行预测。

I think people you are still trying to figure out what does that look like in this world in LLMs?

我想你们仍在试图弄清楚法学硕士在这个世界上是什么样子？

Lenny: Something I hope that you're all building at Slack is a way to ask a bot questions based on all the conversations in the Slack.

Lenny：我希望你们都在 Slack 中构建一种根据 Slack 中的所有对话向机器人询问问题的方法。

I've been looking for that product for a while now.

我一直在寻找该产品一段时间了。

Noah Weiss: I can safely say we have a lot of prototypes internally where we are playing with this.

Noah Weiss：我可以有把握地说，我们内部有很多原型，我们正在研究这个。

I think it is actually funny as a aside in one of the original Slack, I don't know, product vision decks back in 2014.

我认为这实际上很有趣，作为 2014 年最初的 Slack（我不知道）产品愿景中的一个旁白。

There was our whole strategy, there's four parts.

这是我们的整个战略，有四个部分。

Then part number four, which was a joke at the time, was then do magic AI stuff on top.

然后第四部分，这在当时是一个笑话，然后是在上面做神奇的人工智能东西。

Noah Weiss: We didn't even know what the state of AI would be.

Noah Weiss：我们甚至不知道人工智能会是什么样子。

By the time hopefully companies have their collective knowledge in Slack and now we're finally at the period where the magic AI stuff seems finally pretty amazing, pretty magical.

到那时，希望公司在 Slack 中拥有集体知识，现在我们终于到了神奇的人工智能东西看起来终于非常神奇、非常神奇的时期。

Yeah.

是的。

We're doing a lot of prototyping internally and also trying to work with the ecosystem around as well, because there's so many companies doing amazing work in this space.

我们在内部进行了大量的原型设计，并尝试与周围的生态系统合作，因为有很多公司在这个领域做出了令人惊叹的工作。

Noah Weiss: That if you work at a company where you have so much knowledge in your Slack channel repository that you can suddenly get amazing leaps in productivity to help you better do your job because that knowledge is in Slack, but it's sometimes hard to reach and I think these technologies can make that possible.

Noah Weiss：如果你在一家公司工作，在 Slack 通道存储库中拥有如此多的知识，那么你的生产力会突然获得惊人的飞跃，帮助你更好地完成工作，因为这些知识就在 Slack 中，但有时很难获得，我认为这些技术可以使这成为可能。

Lenny: This reminds me of something Gustav, the CPO and CTO and co-president of Spotify share that they always have a deck and a vision of just a play button within Spotify, you just play and all magic happens and it's the best music and thing exactly what you want to hear and just how that isn't actually possible and it's still not possible.

Lenny：这让我想起了 Spotify 的 CPO、CTO 和联席总裁 Gustav 分享的一句话，他们总是有一个平台，并且愿景是在 Spotify 中只需要一个播放按钮，你只需播放，所有的魔法都会发生，这是最好的音乐，而且正是你想听到的东西，但这实际上是不可能的，而且仍然是不可能的。

Exactly to your point, you have to really think about how does it act?

正是针对你的观点，你必须认真思考它是如何发挥作用的？

How close is it to the reality?

它与现实有多接近？

If it's not actually there, he was saying how like, "We'll pick two songs that are correct at a 10 just because we don't really know exactly what you want to hear right now."

如果它实际上不存在，他会说，“我们会选择两首 10 分正确的歌曲，因为我们真的不知道你现在想听什么。”

Lenny: There's no point in trying to design that right now because that's not actually going to be delivering on the promise.

Lenny：现在尝试设计它是没有意义的，因为这实际上并不能兑现承诺。

Noah Weiss: Right.

诺亚·韦斯：对。

Yeah.

是的。

I love that.

我喜欢那个。

Our version of that has always been that you open up Slack and suddenly instead of having to read through dozens of channels or find these mentions that magically Slack could just tell you in order that you would care about a summary of all the interesting things that have happened and then let you dig in if you want to your very own personal chief of staff who knew everything that you cared about and read everything that you could read.

我们的版本一直是，你打开 Slack，突然不必阅读数十个频道或找到这些提及，Slack 可以神奇地告诉你，以便你关心已发生的所有有趣事情的摘要，然后让你深入了解，如果你想要你自己的私人参谋长，他知道你关心的一切，并阅读你能读到的所有内容。

Noah Weiss: I don't think that's going to quite be possible anytime soon.

诺亚·韦斯：我认为这在短期内不太可能实现。

But I think Spotify heading towards that north star you wind up developing.

但我认为 Spotify 正朝着你最终发展的那颗北极星前进。

I hope a lot of really compelling projects experiences along the way.

我希望一路上能有很多真正引人注目的项目经历。

Lenny: Yeah, man.

莱尼：是的，伙计。

The more I think about it, the more amazing opportunities exist in Slack.

我越想，Slack 中存在的机会就越多。

It's all text.

都是文字。

It's amazing.

太棒了。

Okay.

好的。

There's a lot of cool stuff coming I imagine.

我想象会有很多很酷的东西出现。

Lenny: On that topic, how do you think about creating teams within Slack and AI specifically?

Lenny：关于这个话题，您如何具体考虑在 Slack 和 AI 中创建团队？

Are you recommending each team think about how AI can make their stuff better or are you dedicating, "Here's the AI team and they're going to work on stuff" and you guys just keep ship what you're shipping and keep moving your metrics?

你是否建议每个团队考虑人工智能如何让他们的东西变得更好，或者你是否致力于，“这是人工智能团队，他们将致力于研究东西”，而你们只是继续交付你正在交付的东西并继续移动你的指标？

Noah Weiss: I mean the unfair answer is a hybrid of the two, which is to say we have a central machine learning and search team.

诺亚·韦斯：我的意思是，不公平的答案是两者的混合，也就是说我们有一个中央机器学习和搜索团队。

But a lot of people have expertise in this field to build infrastructure that everybody can use.

但很多人都拥有该领域的专业知识，可以构建每个人都可以使用的基础设施。

What we've done is because the space is evolving so quickly, literally every month, the capabilities are evolving, the risks and tradeoffs are evolving a ton.

我们所做的是因为这个领域发展得如此之快，几乎每个月，功能都在发展，风险和权衡也在不断发展。

Noah Weiss: What we want to do is actually spin up a couple different teams that are focused on prototyping, using that common infrastructure but in specific directions that are all a little bit different.

Noah Weiss：我们想做的实际上是组建几个不同的团队，专注于原型设计，使用通用基础设施，但具体方向略有不同。

We've got a common ML, let's say in search team and now we have a bunch of teams that are working in parallel and different customer problems that we're trying to solve using that shared infrastructure.

我们有一个共同的机器学习，比如说在搜索团队中，现在我们有一群团队正在并行工作，我们正在尝试使用共享基础设施来解决不同的客户问题。

Noah Weiss: I think this isn't the steady state.

诺亚·韦斯：我认为这不是稳定状态。

I think over time, what it'll probably look like is that all the existing product areas, as soon as we know more of the shape of what the technology is capable of will just have AI capabilities as part of their roadmaps.

我认为随着时间的推移，一旦我们更多地了解该技术的能力，所有现有的产品领域都可能将人工智能功能作为其路线图的一部分。

Just like every product team is responsible for their own mobile roadmap.

就像每个产品团队都对自己的移动路线图负责一样。

They don't outsource it to someone else.

他们不会将其外包给其他人。

Noah Weiss: But I think today when things are moving so quickly, you actually want a little bit of a more ad hoc, flexible approach to move quickly and that's what we're doing.

诺亚·韦斯：但我认为今天，当事情发展得如此之快时，你实际上需要一种更临时、更灵活的方法来快速发展，这就是我们正在做的。

Lenny: That's what I've been hearing from everyone I've been asking this question.

莱尼：这就是我从每个提出这个问题的人那里听到的。

The search ranking team is always seems to be the center of all this and then it's a few experiments here and there.

搜索排名团队似乎总是这一切的中心，然后到处进行一些实验。

That's an interesting pattern I've been noticing.

这是我注意到的一个有趣的模式。

Lenny: I heard that you have a process internally called Complaint-Storms.

莱尼：我听说你们有一个内部流程，称为“投诉风暴”。

I'd love to understand what that is.

我很想了解那是什么。

Noah Weiss: It something that started.

诺亚·韦斯：一切都是从开始的。

I want to say back in end of 2019, maybe early 2020.

我想说的是2019年底，也许是2020年初。

The idea a little bit was how do we help as a team look at the software that we build with fresh eyes, because we've been set at Slack for a long time.

我们的想法是，我们如何帮助团队以新的眼光看待我们构建的软件，因为我们已经在 Slack 工作了很长时间。

Slack maybe more than almost any other company maybe like Figma is probably similar.

Slack 也许比几乎任何其他公司都更相似，也许像 Figma 一样。

I was listening to the podcast just earlier today where if you work on Figma, you work on Slack.

今天早些时候我正在听播客，如果你在 Figma 上工作，你就在 Slack 上工作。

Noah Weiss: You also live in Slack and you live in Figma all day so you can become more of a power user than anyone else on earth.

Noah Weiss：你也生活在 Slack 中，并且整天生活在 Figma 中，所以你可以成为比地球上任何人都更强大的用户。

What we were realizing, especially for people trying to build Slack for the next million customers, the people who have never used Slack before, it was becoming increasingly hard to have empathy for what their usage of Slack would look like.

我们意识到，特别是对于那些试图为接下来的 100 万客户构建 Slack 的人们，以及那些以前从未使用过 Slack 的人们，越来越难以对他们对 Slack 的使用方式产生同理心。

How would they look at it in a more critical way?

他们会如何以更批判的方式看待它？

How would they care less than we cared?

他们怎么会关心得比我们关心的少呢？

Noah Weiss: What we started doing with these complaints storms and idea was really simple, which is we'd get a team together often Stewart myself would also join and we'd actually start off with other products first in adjacent spaces and we'd say, "Okay.

诺亚·韦斯：我们开始处理这些投诉风暴时，想法非常简单，就是我们组建一个团队，斯图尔特本人也会加入，实际上我们会首先在相邻空间开始使用其他产品，然后我们会说：“好吧。

As a group we're going to go through the customer journey from the moment you land on the website through, let's say it's a workplace product, getting your first account going, getting the first couple of users on board, getting to the point of value.

作为一个团队，我们将经历从您登陆网站的那一刻起的客户旅程，假设这是一个工作场所产品，让您的第一个帐户开始运行，让第一批用户加入，直到达到价值点。

Noah Weiss: We're going to do it on one screen.

Noah Weiss：我们将在一个屏幕上完成它。

Someone's going to project and then people are going to fill in every issue, everything that's confusing, every pain point, not bones, but ways in which if you didn't care about the software, you don't work on it, what would actually confuse you?

有人会进行项目，然后人们会填补每个问题，所有令人困惑的事情，每个痛点，不是骨头，而是如果你不关心软件，你不工作的方式，什么会让你真正感到困惑？

What would stop you in your tracks?

什么会阻止你前进？

Noah Weiss: From that you went generating a bunch of amazing inspiration by looking at someone else's product in a really critical way for things you might want to try in your own product.

Noah Weiss：从那时起，你通过以一种非常批判的方式看待别人的产品，以及你可能想在自己的产品中尝试的东西，产生了一系列惊人的灵感。

Once you get to that, then it becomes easier to actually do with your own software, but it is a little painful obviously.

一旦你做到了这一点，那么实际使用你自己的软件就会变得更容易，但显然有点痛苦。

Same with watching usability tests to look at your own baby in a way that is, "Okay.

就像观看可用性测试来观察你自己的孩子一样，“好吧。

I'm trying to find all the words.

我正在努力寻找所有的单词。

I'm trying to find all the problems."

我正在努力找出所有问题。”

Noah Weiss: But that's one up being a pretty great source.

诺亚·韦斯：但这确实是一个非常好的来源。

Whenever a team I think either gets stuck or feels like they reach a dead end in a direction is doing complaint-storms about the product area that they're in or using adjacent products just to get inspiration.

每当我认为一个团队陷入困境或感觉自己在某个方向上陷入了死胡同时，他们就会对他们所在的产品领域进行抱怨风暴，或者只是为了获得灵感而使用相邻的产品。

Then I think it unlocks a lot more creative views than the problem space.

然后我认为它释放了比问题空间更多的创造性观点。

Lenny: It's similar to a process that I learned Stripe has called friction logging.

Lenny：这类似于我了解到 Stripe 称为摩擦记录的过程。

But I love the nuance here of starting with someone else's product because I could totally see how that makes you feel better looking at your product in real life.

但我喜欢从别人的产品开始的细微差别，因为我完全可以理解这如何让你在现实生活中看到你的产品时感觉更好。

It's not like we suck.

这不像我们很糟糕。

It's okay, everyone's has so much opportunity.

没关系，每个人都有很多机会。

Noah Weiss: Exactly.

诺亚·韦斯：没错。

Yeah.

是的。

I've heard that from Stripe, too.

我也从 Stripe 那里听说过。

I think gets a similar place.

我认为有类似的地方。

I think it's the doing it ...

我认为这就是做...

I think the byproduct is that you also get calibration on product pace, product quality, and as a team you develop that together.

我认为副产品是你还可以对产品节奏、产品质量进行校准，并且作为一个团队共同开发这些产品。

Again, similar to the principles, it's like how do you get these things that are hard to actually feel collectively on the same page about and how do you calibrate?

再次，与原则类似，就像你如何获得这些实际上很难在同一页上感受到的东西以及你如何校准？

It's another good way to do it.

这是另一种好方法。

Lenny: I'm imagining some PMs might be hearing this and wonder, "Okay.

Lenny：我想象一些产品经理可能会听到这个并且想知道，“好吧。

Great.

伟大的。

Now the founders and the execs have all these things that they want us to fix.

现在，创始人和高管们希望我们解决所有这些问题。

I have goals to hit.

我有目标要实现。

I got a roadmap.

我有一个路线图。

How do you think about prioritizing things that come up in these sorts of sessions for the team and how do they mix and match versus all the other stuff that you want to do?

您如何考虑为团队安排此类会议中出现的事情的优先级，以及它们与您想做的所有其他事情如何混合和匹配？

Or is it just like they don't actually have a huge roadmap and this is a way to inform the roadmap?

还是说他们实际上并没有一个巨大的路线图，而这是一种告知路线图的方式？

Noah Weiss: No. I mean, more broadly, I think the way that we think about, or us to think about our roadmap for any feature team at Slack is that it's a portfolio and it's meant to be a portfolio that's diversified a couple different ways.

Noah Weiss：不。我的意思是，更广泛地说，我认为我们思考的方式，或者我们思考 Slack 任何功能团队的路线图的方式是，它是一个投资组合，并且应该是一个以多种不同方式实现多元化的投资组合。

I think one is you want to diversify things that are meant to be new capabilities versus making the thing you've already built a little bit better every day.

我认为其中之一是你想要使本来应该成为新功能的东西多样化，而不是让你已经构建的东西每天变得更好一点。

Similar to parenting.

类似于养育子女。

Noah Weiss: Are there things that are meant to be risky that you aren't sure are going to work but might have a lot of upside versus things that are known bets.

诺亚·韦斯（Noah Weiss）：是否有一些事情是有风险的，你不确定是否会起作用，但与已知的赌注相比，可能有很多好处。

Then I think often you're balancing are you doing things that are meant to have impact that you're already very confident in versus things that are meant to learn about a new possibility space.

然后我认为，你通常会在做一些你已经非常有信心的、旨在产生影响的事情和那些旨在了解新的可能性空间的事情之间进行平衡。

Noah Weiss: I think for most teams, this stuff usually wind up tactically filling up that bucket of, "Let's make the existing product a little bit better every day for users." At Slack we have this thing we call customer Love Sprints, which is an interesting way team to figure out how to get this on their roadmap is it's hard to allocate that work throughout the quarter.

Noah Weiss：我认为对于大多数团队来说，这些东西通常会在战术上填补这一桶，“让我们每天为用户改进现有产品一点点。”在 Slack，我们有一个称为“客户爱冲刺”的东西，这是一种有趣的方式，团队可以弄清楚如何将其纳入他们的路线图，因为很难在整个季度分配这项工作。

Noah Weiss: What we'll wind up doing often is have a team do a two-week customer love sprint, almost like a hackathon, but with that burndown list of what we think is the lowest effort, highest impact changes that we can make to generate more love from our customers and whatever that feature areas.

Noah Weiss：我们最终要做的就是让一个团队进行为期两周的客户喜爱冲刺，几乎就像黑客马拉松一样，但我们会列出一份燃尽清单，列出我们认为可以做出的最少努力、影响最大的改变，以便从客户和任何功能领域中获得更多喜爱。

Then people just sprint for two weeks, design product engineering, and then you have a bunch of things that you celebrate.

然后人们只需冲刺两周，设计产品工程，然后你就会有很多值得庆祝的事情。

Noah Weiss: At the end, the goal is to ship all of them.

Noah Weiss：最终的目标是交付所有这些。

This isn't hacks that you throw away.

这不是你扔掉的黑客。

That's how we end up prioritizing it off in that work is actually making it this really fun total change of pace throughout the quarter to not do big feature work that may take months, but to do all these small delightful things that customers are going to love at the end.

这就是我们最终在工作中优先考虑的方式，实际上是在整个季度中进行非常有趣的整体节奏变化，不做可能需要几个月的大功能工作，而是做所有这些客户最终会喜欢的小而令人愉快的事情。

That's the other way that we figure out how to balance it in.

这是我们弄清楚如何平衡它的另一种方式。

Lenny: I love that.

莱尼：我喜欢这个。

How often do you do these sorts of customer Love Sprints?

您多久进行一次此类客户喜爱冲刺？

Noah Weiss: I would think teams that work on very user facing products do it at least once a quarter.

Noah Weiss：我认为致力于面向用户的产品的团队至少每季度进行一次。

I think other teams that work on maybe less user facing might do it maybe twice a year.

我认为其他致力于较少面向用户的团队可能每年会做两次。

But quarterly is a pretty healthy cadence.

但每季度一次是一个相当健康的节奏。

Lenny: Wow.

莱尼：哇。

I didn't know about that.

我对此一无所知。

That connects to ...

这连接到...

Slack has always been a very delightful product.

Slack 一直是一个非常令人愉快的产品。

I remember early on the animations were so awesome, the little twirly, I don't know, pounds hashtag thing.

我记得早期的动画非常棒，有点扭曲，我不知道，磅标签的东西。

It feels like Slack has always invested in delight.

感觉 Slack 一直在为快乐投资。

How do you operationalize that?

你如何实施它？

Is it these customer Love Sprints?

是这些客户喜欢冲刺吗？

Is there something else that's just like we need to allocate some percentage, just make things really fun even though it's not going to move any metric?

是否还有其他东西，就像我们需要分配一些百分比，只是让事情变得非常有趣，即使它不会改变任何指标？

Noah Weiss: I would say it's a little bit good DNA of the company, honestly, which is that for co-founders trying to build a massive online role playing game for many years that was called Glitch and their background was all in building delightful, playful experiences.

Noah Weiss：老实说，我想说，这是公司的一个很好的DNA，对于联合创始人来说，多年来一直试图打造一款名为“Glitch”的大型在线角色扮演游戏，而他们的背景就是打造令人愉快、有趣的体验。

Glitch didn't work out.

故障没有解决。

But, yeah, there's a whole long backstory.

但是，是的，有一个很长的背景故事。

But the short version is a tool they had built internally that they then wound up spitting out a company from which became Slack.

但简短的版本是他们在内部构建的一个工具，然后他们最终吐出了一家公司，后来成为了 Slack。

Noah Weiss: I think that DNA we're trying to build a consumer grade experience that just happens to be for work is really ingrained in the company.

Noah Weiss：我认为我们试图打造一种恰好适合工作的消费级体验的 DNA 在公司中确实根深蒂固。

It's also a big part of how we hire.

这也是我们招聘方式的重要组成部分。

I would say certainly the majority of PMs designers and engineers who joined Slack had never worked at an enterprise software company before.

我想说的是，大多数加入 Slack 的 PM 设计师和工程师以前从未在企业软件公司工作过。

It's not like most people had worked at Oracle or SAP, it's most people had worked at consumer companies or game companies.

并不是大多数人都曾在 Oracle 或 SAP 工作过，而是大多数人都曾在消费公司或游戏公司工作过。

Noah Weiss: They bring that focus in the spirit and then I would say the last bit beyond kind of the principles and the complaints-storms and the customer love is that we have this amazing team that we call the CET team, the Customer Experience Team.

Noah Weiss：他们在精神上带来了这种关注，然后我要说的是，除了原则、投诉风暴和客户喜爱之外，最后一点是我们拥有这个令人惊叹的团队，我们称之为 CET 团队，即客户体验团队。

They're in some ways the team that is doing our scale at Foursquare is most often in touch with our customers.

从某些方面来说，他们是 Foursquare 规模化团队中最常与我们的客户保持联系的团队。

Noah Weiss: From the very early days people used to do CE shifts if you worked in products so that you can actually figure out what's frustrating, what's confusing.

Noah Weiss：从很早开始，如果你从事产品工作，人们就会进行 CE 轮班，这样你就能真正弄清楚什么是令人沮丧的、什么是令人困惑的。

We have a really great pipeline for getting the insights from the CE team of what are the obstacles, the pain points, the most frequent complaints into the hands of the product teams to be able to prioritize, to figure out, yeah, not all these are going to move a given metric.

我们有一个非常好的管道，可以从 CE 团队那里获取有关障碍、痛点和最常见投诉的见解，并将这些信息交到产品团队手中，以便能够确定优先级，弄清楚，是的，并非所有这些都会改变给定的指标。

They might not achieve something for the business.

他们可能无法为企业取得什么成就。

Noah Weiss: But collectively, I think the way that Slack thinks about competition is we obsess it about customers.

Noah Weiss：但总的来说，我认为 Slack 考虑竞争的方式是我们对客户的关注。

We build something they'll love enough to tell their coworkers and the rest takes care of itself.

我们构建了一些他们会非常喜欢并告诉他们的同事的东西，剩下的就水到渠成了。

Lenny: Speaking of competition, something I wanted to ask you a bit about.

莱尼：说到竞争，我想问你一些问题。

Early on Slack was competing against this product called HipChat and that's actually what I used at our startup and we love HipChat.

早期，Slack 正在与一款名为 HipChat 的产品竞争，这实际上是我在我们的初创公司中使用的产品，我们喜欢 HipChat。

It was so hilarious, just these memes everywhere and their billboards are amazing.

太搞笑了，这些模因无处不在，他们的广告牌也太棒了。

But then Slack ate their lunch later on.

但后来 Slack 吃了他们的午餐。

I'm just thinking out loud, discord feels like that was the big threat and how Microsoft Teams obviously.

我只是大声思考，Discord 感觉这是一个巨大的威胁，而 Microsoft Teams 显然是这样。

Lenny: I'm curious just how you think about competition and even just what you've learned about working in a space where there's a lot of competition and thinking about that long-term and even short-term.

莱尼：我很好奇你如何看待竞争，甚至好奇你在一个竞争激烈的领域工作时学到了什么，并考虑了长期甚至短期的问题。

Noah Weiss: Yeah.

诺亚·韦斯：是的。

I mean each of those is an interesting mini lesson learned about those.

我的意思是，每一个都是关于这些的有趣的迷你课程。

I think the through line for all of them I would say is still the max that we have in trailing, which is we're customer obsessed but competitor aware.

我认为对他们所有人来说，我想说的直通线仍然是我们追踪的最大值，即我们以客户为中心，但也了解竞争对手。

I think it's a little bit different.

我认为有点不同。

I think some companies are like ...

我认为有些公司就像...

I don't know, Uber for example, I think was notorious competitor obsessed and they tried to delete customers when they could.

我不知道，例如优步，我认为臭名昭著的竞争对手着迷，他们试图在可能的情况下删除客户。

Noah Weiss: I think HipChat.

诺亚·韦斯：我认为是 HipChat。

I don't think Slack sought out to kill HipChat.

我不认为 Slack 想要杀死 HipChat。

At Foursquare we used ...

在 Foursquare，我们使用...

I think it was called Campfire back in the day for the 37 singles people.

我想，当时 37 名单身人士的活动被称为 Campfire。

It was a whole generation of those products.

这是整整一代的产品。

I think Slack came along and I think they had a couple of innovations.

我认为 Slack 出现了，并且我认为他们有一些创新。

One was they had a great mobile experience that synced across every client.

一是他们拥有在每个客户端之间同步的出色移动体验。

Search actually worked and then they brought a lot of the best parts of consumer messaging into the workplace like the emoji and reactions and all those bits.

搜索实际上发挥了作用，然后他们将消费者信息传递的许多最好部分带入工作场所，例如表情符号和反应以及所有这些内容。

Noah Weiss: I think it turns out that if you're 10X better on a couple of those axes, then you can see a huge change in behavior.

Noah Weiss：我认为事实证明，如果你在其中几个轴上的表现提高了 10 倍，那么你就会看到行为上的巨大变化。

I think that's what happened with that move from the HipChat Campfire to Slack world.

我认为这就是从 HipChat Campfire 到 Slack 世界的迁移所发生的情况。

Discords interesting.

不和谐有趣。

I mean we keep aware of Discord.

我的意思是我们要时刻注意 Discord。

But it is so much more focused on the consumer.

但它更加关注消费者。

Originally, it was out for community space.

最初，它是为了社区空间。

I think at Slack the lesson I would have, I think we learned in a good way is we've always really been focused on groups of people who are trying to do work together.

我认为在 Slack 我会学到的一个很好的教训是，我们一直真正关注那些试图一起工作的人。

Noah Weiss: That winds up being a completely different audience to build for than communities.

Noah Weiss：这最终会成为与社区完全不同的受众。

I think that focus has been really helpful and I think Discord's amazing and many people love it and the people who use Discord certainly use it in very different way than people who use Slack at work.

我认为这种专注确实很有帮助，而且我认为 Discord 很棒，很多人都喜欢它，而且使用 Discord 的人肯定与在工作中使用 Slack 的人以非常不同的方式使用它。

Noah Weiss: I think Microsoft obviously has become over time the biggest competitor there.

诺亚·韦斯：我认为随着时间的推移，微软显然已经成为那里最大的竞争对手。

I think the origin of Teams really was a defensive move for them to protect Office because Office is an incredible, very profitable monopoly in the productivity space.

我认为 Teams 的起源实际上是他们保护 Office 的防御举措，因为 Office 在生产力领域是一个令人难以置信的、非常有利可图的垄断者。

I think when they built Teams it was more of a covering their flank versus Slack on the ascent.

我认为，当他们创建 Teams 时，更多的是为了在上升过程中掩护自己的侧翼对抗 Slack。

Noah Weiss: I think as Teams has evolved over time, it's become much more of a video conferencing product that competes with Zoom and Google Meet.

Noah Weiss：我认为，随着 Teams 随着时间的推移不断发展，它已经成为一种与 Zoom 和 Google Meet 竞争的视频会议产品。

The people who use Teams use it completely different than Slack where you live and breathe and channels and work and workflows all day long.

使用 Teams 的人使用它与 Slack 完全不同，在 Slack 中你整天生活、呼吸、沟通、工作和工作流程。

Noah Weiss: I think what we've seen there too is that a lot of our customers, they happily use both.

诺亚·韦斯：我认为我们也看到很多客户很乐意同时使用这两种产品。

Most Fortune 500 companies have either a subscription or a Google Workplace subscription and all of those customers who use those also use Slack.

大多数财富 500 强公司都有订阅或 Google Workplace 订阅，所有使用这些服务的客户也都使用 Slack。

We like to say that Slack is this connected tissue that makes all the rest of your tools that much better.

我们想说，Slack 是一种互联组织，它使您的所有其他工具变得更好。

Noah Weiss: I think there we've taken very much an open ecosystem and platform approach and we've just been focused on how do we keep building the best version of what Slack can be as a new category of software for our customers and staying aware of our competitors, but really obsessed on what are the new ways that we can delight our users as the years go by.

Noah Weiss：我认为我们已经采取了非常开放的生态系统和平台方法，我们只是专注于如何不断为我们的客户构建 Slack 作为新软件类别的最佳版本，并保持对我们竞争对手的了解，但真正着迷于随着时间的推移，我们可以用什么新方式来取悦我们的用户。

Lenny: Slack is a big-ish company within now let's say a big company.

Lenny：Slack 是一家相当大的公司，现在可以说是一家大公司了。

But it feels like you still are launching really interesting stuff, you launch huddles, clips, there's this AI stuff coming, sounds like.

但感觉你仍然在推出非常有趣的东西，你推出了聚会、剪辑，听起来人工智能的东西即将到来。

I'm curious what you have done at Slack to enable these sorts of zero to one bets and what you've seen is important to allow for innovation along those lines.

我很好奇你们在 Slack 做了什么来实现这种零到一的赌注，你们所看到的对于实现这些创新非常重要。

Noah Weiss: I think maybe we're all a little self-delusional, because I think everyone who works at Slack likes to think that we're still at a small startup.

Noah Weiss：我想也许我们都有点自欺欺人，因为我认为在 Slack 工作的每个人都喜欢认为我们仍然是一家小型初创公司。

I think keeping that spirit alive, honestly culturally has been a big part of it.

我认为，诚实地在文化上保持这种精神是其中的重要组成部分。

I think going back to the principles early on, one of the ones that we did talk about, literally one of the actual wording is take bigger boulder bets.

我认为回到早期的原则，我们确实讨论过的原则之一，实际上的实际措辞之一是采取更大的巨石赌注。

Noah Weiss: The idea there is that it's really easy to fall into the trap of just constant incrementalism.

诺亚·韦斯：我们的想法是，很容易陷入持续渐进主义的陷阱。

The concept, it's like a feature team and you have like a KPI and you feel like your whole life is measured by that similar KPI going up 1% a quarter and then you lose sight of what's beyond the horizon.

这个概念，就像一个功能团队，你有一个 KPI，你觉得你的整个生活都是通过类似的 KPI 每季度上涨 1% 来衡量的，然后你就看不到地平线之外的东西了。

We have this mental metaphor that we talk a lot about getting to the next hill.

我们有这样一个心理隐喻：我们经常谈论如何到达下一座山。

Noah Weiss: The idea is that if you're in a mountain range and you're maybe in the little valley, you can see what's right in front of you.

诺亚·韦斯（Noah Weiss）：这个想法是，如果你在山脉中，并且可能在小山谷中，你可以看到就在你面前的东西。

But you have no idea how tall the mountains are behind.

但你不知道后面的山有多高。

I think teams can often get lost crawling up that hill, not realizing that there's a huge, incredibly beautiful range behind it.

我认为团队在爬上这座山时经常会迷路，没有意识到山后面有一个巨大的、令人难以置信的美丽山脉。

Noah Weiss: Take bigger boulder bets.

诺亚·韦斯（Noah Weiss）：在抱石上下更大的赌注。

Get to the next hill to see what the horizon wants around you.

到达下一座山，看看地平线在你周围会发生什么。

That's how we think about it strategically.

这就是我们的战略思考方式。

Then I think structurally the way we've approached it is that we've over time freighted new teams from scratch that incubated in a new area before the area mature.

然后我认为，从结构上讲，我们处理这个问题的方式是，随着时间的推移，我们从头开始培养新团队，在该领域成熟之前在新领域中孵化。

We did that with a lot of these native audiovisual products like huddles and clips really in the pandemic because our customers were demanding it from us.

我们在大流行期间使用了许多本地视听产品（例如集会和剪辑）来做到这一点，因为我们的客户要求我们这样做。

Noah Weiss: They were like, "We love living in Slack all day.

Noah Weiss：他们说，“我们喜欢整天生活在 Slack 中。

But we feel disconnected from our teammates when we can't be in the same physical place.

但当我们不能处于同一个物理位置时，我们就会感到与队友脱节。

What can you do to help us?" That's where that came from.

你能帮我们做什么？”这就是它的来源。

I think in the AI space now, it's a similar thing, which is what we're trying to hear from customers.

我认为现在在人工智能领域，这是类似的事情，这也是我们试图从客户那里听到的。

What do you wish Slack could do if it had these new superpowers?

如果 Slack 拥有这些新的超能力，您希望它能够做什么？

Let's incubate a couple teams, a prototype there and then figure out what can get to real product market fit.

让我们孵化几个团队，在那里建立一个原型，然后找出什么可以适应真正的产品市场。

Noah Weiss: I think when we have those teams, I think it's important to just give them space to run, to give them ...

诺亚·韦斯：我认为当我们拥有这些团队时，我认为重要的是给他们运行的空间，给他们......

get a gel free card for maybe the normal process of, "Okay.

获得一张无凝胶卡，也许是正常过程，“好吧。

Our planning quarterly reviews" and make it feel something that is the pace of learning is what matters.

我们的计划是季度回顾”，并让人感觉学习的节奏才是最重要的。

How fast are you prototyping, how fast are you learning from users and then getting to do that publicly and pilot and then get something to launch that's amazing, blows people away.

你制作原型的速度有多快，你向用户学习的速度有多快，然后公开进行试点，然后发布一些令人惊叹的东西，让人们惊叹不已。

That's the formula that we've seen.

这就是我们看到的公式。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Vanta, helping you streamline your security compliance to accelerate your growth.

Lenny：本集由 Vanta 为您带来，可帮助您简化安全合规性以加速您的成长。

Thousands of fast-growing companies like Gusto, Com, Quora, and Modern Treasury trust Vanta to help build, scale, manage, and demonstrate their security and compliance programs and get ready for audits in weeks, not months.

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超过 5,000 家快速发展的公司使用 Vanta 自动化 SOC 2 和其他框架所涉及的高达 90% 的工作。

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在有限的时间内，Lenny 的播客听众可享受 Vanta 1,000 美元优惠。

Go to vanta.com/lenny, that's V-A-N-T-A .com/lenny to learn more and to claim your discounts.

请访问vanta.com/lenny（即 V-A-N-T-A .com/lenny）了解更多信息并申请折扣。

Get started today.

今天就开始吧。

Lenny: One of the things I love learning about from product teams is their unique rituals and traditions.

Lenny：我喜欢从产品团队学习的事情之一是他们独特的仪式和传统。

I'm curious what's maybe the most interesting or unique or fun or funny ritual or tradition on the product team of things you all maybe do regularly?

我很好奇，在产品团队中你们经常做的事情中，最有趣、最独特、最有趣、最有趣的仪式或传统是什么？

Noah Weiss: One of the things that we do, which is always a little bit funny, I mean, it's more of a emotional thing rather than a practical thing is that at all hands we'll often wind up taking specific tweets that people had about the product and Twitter.

诺亚·韦斯：我们所做的事情之一，总是有点有趣，我的意思是，这更多的是一种情感上的事情，而不是一个实际的事情，那就是，无论如何，我们经常会收到人们关于产品和 Twitter 的特定推文。

People say the craziest thing sometimes.

人们有时会说出最疯狂的话。

Sometimes they're really heartwarming like customer love, but often it's just the meanest, most frustrating complaints that people have.

有时它们确实像顾客的爱一样温暖人心，但通常这只是人们最卑鄙、最令人沮丧的抱怨。

Noah Weiss: It's honestly meant for us to just have a pulse on, we're at people actually saying and feeling in the wild and not thinking too seriously, but keeping that sense of ...

诺亚·韦斯（Noah Weiss）：老实说，这意味着我们只是保持脉搏，我们是在人们在野外真实地表达和感受，而不是认真思考，而是保持这种感觉......

I think that the distance you have from your users as your user base gets more and more diverse and larger I think can make it harder to actually develop the product because you're not designing for yourself anymore.

我认为，随着用户群变得越来越多样化、越来越大，你与用户之间的距离会变得越来越难，因为你不再为自己设计，所以实际开发产品会变得更加困难。

Noah Weiss: I think all the ways that we help keep people grounded in what are actual users actually saying.

诺亚·韦斯（Noah Weiss）：我认为我们帮助人们了解实际用户实际所说内容的所有方法。

That's one big way.

这是一大方式。

The other that reminded me of which is actually probably better, maybe delete that last one because it's kind of boring.

另一个让我想起哪个实际上可能更好，也许删除最后一个，因为它有点无聊。

Lenny: No. It's great.

莱尼：不，这太棒了。

We're not deleting nothing.

我们不会删除任何内容。

Noah Weiss: Fine.

诺亚·韦斯：好的。

Usability.

可用性。

I'm a big believer in you want to be data-informed, but you don't want to be so data-driven that you actually don't have a pulse of what real people feel when they're using your product.

我坚信你想要获得数据信息，但你不想被数据驱动，以至于你实际上无法了解人们在使用你的产品时的真实感受。

We're really big into user research, not as it gives you the answer, but it helps at least pose a lot of questions for you when you watch how someone actually uses the software.

我们非常热衷于用户研究，并不是因为它能为您提供答案，而是当您观察某人实际如何使用该软件时，它至少可以帮助您提出很多问题。

Noah Weiss: Historically, it's really hard to get PMs, let alone engineers actually attend user research sessions.

Noah Weiss：从历史上看，找到产品经理确实很难，更不用说工程师真正参加用户研究会议了。

What we wound up doing, especially in the pandemic when we first went remote, is now you can dial into usability sessions and to make it really attractive for the team, what we would do is have people live in a thread, write their real time thoughts of ...

我们最终要做的，特别是在我们第一次远程办公时的大流行中，现在你可以拨入可用性会议，并使其对团队真正有吸引力，我们要做的就是让人们生活在一个线程中，写下他们的实时想法......

so painful, how they use that, or I can't believe they missed that, or, oh, that gave me this idea from seeing how they were doing that to do this other thing.

太痛苦了，他们如何使用它，或者我不敢相信他们错过了这一点，或者，哦，这给了我这个想法，因为看到他们是如何做这件事的。

Noah Weiss: Then you wind up having the PMs, the engineers, designers and the user researcher all in one Slack thread live, responding, reacting to usability session.

Noah Weiss：然后，你最终会让产品经理、工程师、设计师和用户研究人员都在一个 Slack 线程中进行实时响应，对可用性会话做出反应。

Then suddenly that thread becomes actually the best source of truth for the research report that then gets written up.

然后突然间，该线程实际上成为随后撰写的研究报告的最佳事实来源。

Noah Weiss: But I think most importantly, it gets the team almost like the complaint-storms, but actually watching someone else do it in the shoes of an actual human being trying to use the thing that you thought was so brilliant and yet has all these flaws.

诺亚·韦斯：但我认为最重要的是，它让团队几乎像投诉风暴一样，但实际上是看着其他人站在一个真实的人的立场上尝试使用你认为如此出色但存在所有这些缺陷的东西。

It's humbling.

这是令人谦卑的。

It's filled with humor and also it's I think really constructive for the teams to do it that way.

它充满了幽默，而且我认为团队这样做确实很有建设性。

Lenny: I was going to ask where they actually share these thoughts.

莱尼：我想问他们实际上在哪里分享这些想法。

In Slack makes a lot of sense.

在 Slack 中很有意义。

Noah Weiss: Yeah.

诺亚·韦斯：是的。

I mean it turns into a report at some point, but literally just link back to the original thread and then you have 100 people's reaction as the report is ongoing.

我的意思是它在某个时候会变成一份报告，但实际上只是链接回原始线程，然后随着报告的进行，你就会得到 100 个人的反应。

Lenny: If only there was a AI tool to summarize all of your thoughts.

Lenny：如果有一个人工智能工具来总结你所有的想法就好了。

Noah Weiss: We've got a prototype for that.

Noah Weiss：我们已经有了一个原型。

Hopefully it'll work well enough that actually be useful for customers, too.

希望它能运作良好，对客户也真正有用。

Lenny: You tweeted once about how ...

莱尼：你曾经在推特上说过如何......

I think maybe around the time you joined Slack around 2019 that the self-service business of Slack basically plateaued and it wasn't clear why.

我想也许在你 2019 年左右加入 Slack 的时候，Slack 的自助服务业务基本上趋于稳定，但原因尚不清楚。

I'm curious just what that period was like and how did you get to the bottom of what was going on and turn things around.

我很好奇那段时期是什么样的，你是如何查明事情真相并扭转局面的。

Noah Weiss: Yeah.

诺亚·韦斯：是的。

It was actually a couple years after I joined, but it was a point where I was focused on the self-service business because we had this period with Slack where I would say maybe 2014 to 2017 where it was almost all self-service and it was just growing like gangbusters.

实际上是在我加入几年后，但那是我专注于自助服务业务的时候，因为我们在 Slack 度过了一段时期，我想说可能是 2014 年到 2017 年，那时它几乎都是自助服务，而且它的增长势头迅猛。

Then we started spinning up the sales team and an enterprise team.

然后我们开始组建销售团队和企业团队。

We started focusing mostly on that.

我们开始主要关注这一点。

Noah Weiss: I think we saw the team that was working on, but it was primarily the company's focus was all driving enterprise deals, getting to that next level of maturity.

诺亚·韦斯：我认为我们看到了正在努力的团队，但主要是公司的重点是推动企业交易，达到下一个成熟度。

Then in 2019, I think we started to see that when we looked beneath the surface, the fundamentals of the self-service business weren't looking as healthy as they used to be.

然后在 2019 年，我认为我们开始看到，当我们深入观察表面时，自助服务业务的基本面看起来并不像以前那样健康。

Noah Weiss: I think the biggest thing as we dug into it was a little bit to what we were talking about earlier with the motivation and complaints terms is it was getting harder to understand what the next generation of Slack customers really wanted from the product.

Noah Weiss：我认为我们深入研究的最重要的一点是我们之前讨论的动机和投诉术语是越来越难以理解下一代 Slack 客户真正想要从产品中得到什么。

Whether you're thinking about this as crossing the chasm or moving from kind of early adopters to the needs, the more majority or later adopters, I think we're at that point where not every technologically sophisticated company on earth was using Slack, but most were, and we were getting into a market that customers just had different needs.

无论你认为这是跨越鸿沟还是从早期采用者转向需求、更多的大多数或后来的采用者，我认为我们正处于这样一个阶段：并非地球上所有技术先进的公司都在使用 Slack，但大多数公司都在使用 Slack，而且我们正在进入一个客户有不同需求的市场。

They had different levels of sophistication.

他们的复杂程度不同。

Noah Weiss: We did a lot of user research.

诺亚·韦斯：我们做了很多用户研究。

We looked at all these cohort curves, which you can imagine suddenly they're like, "Huh, they're not as healthy as they used to be like.

我们观察了所有这些队列曲线，你可以想象他们突然会说，“嗯，他们不像以前那么健康了。

What's going on?" I think we got a bunch of insights from it.

发生什么事了？”我认为我们从中得到了很多见解。

But I think really what we want to change about how we were operating was instead of to continue to try to optimize the things that had worked over the last couple years, we said, "Okay.

但我认为我们真正想要改变的是我们的运营方式，而不是继续尝试优化过去几年有效的事情，我们说，“好吧。

Let's throw the whole roadmap away and instead let's come up with a bunch of hypotheses about what could be new levers that could actually help based on the insights that we now have about the next set of customers."

让我们把整个路线图扔掉，取而代之的是，让我们根据我们现在对下一批客户的了解，提出一系列关于什么可能是真正有帮助的新杠杆的假设。”

Noah Weiss: "We're going to try to quickly learn which of these levers are real and which of these are just totally off the mark." We had to say for the next six months, we're probably not going to drive any impact at all.

诺亚·韦斯：“我们将尝试快速了解这些杠杆中哪些是真实的，哪些是完全偏离目标的。”我们不得不说，在接下来的六个月里，我们可能根本不会产生任何影响。

It's only going to be about learning.

这只是关于学习。

But at the end of that, hopefully we wind up finding a couple different levers that had years of room run and that's what wound up happening.

但最终，希望我们最终能找到几个不同的杠杆，这些杠杆已经运行了多年，而这就是最终发生的事情。

Noah Weiss: We wound up doubling the rate of our new pay customer growth in the year and a couple years after that and accelerating the self-service business.

诺亚·韦斯：我们最终将当年和之后几年的新付费客户增长速度翻了一番，并加速了自助服务业务的发展。

I think it really came from stepping back, being humble, not feeling like we deserve to have every company on earth sign up and then figuring out how to optimize for learning.

我认为这实际上是因为退后一步，保持谦虚，而不是觉得我们应该让地球上的每一家公司都注册，然后找出如何优化学习。

In the long term you could get the impact.

从长远来看，你可以获得影响。

Noah Weiss: But knowing that for the next couple quarters we're going to sacrifice impact for the sake of learning.

诺亚·韦斯：但要知道，在接下来的几个季度里，我们将为了学习而牺牲影响力。

I think that was a good muscle to build, but it was definitely not easy to do at the time.

我认为这是锻炼肌肉的好方法，但在当时绝对不容易做到。

Lenny: Well, the story begs the question, what are the levers that worked?

莱尼：嗯，这个故事引出了一个问题，有效的杠杆是什么？

Whatever you can share.

有什么可以分享的。

Noah Weiss: One of the big things that we wound up focusing on is what we talk about is comprehension, desirability.

诺亚·韦斯（Noah Weiss）：我们最终关注的最重要的事情之一是我们谈论的是理解性和渴望性。

The fundamental challenge I think for new users or new teams using your product once you get past the kind of tech early adopters is do they comprehend what this thing is for?

我认为，对于使用你的产品的新用户或新团队来说，一旦你超越了技术早期采用者的范围，他们面临的根本挑战是他们是否理解这个东西的用途？

Do they understand how it works?

他们明白它是如何运作的吗？

Then desirability is why should they care?

那么可取性就是他们为什么要关心？

Most people at work are not like," Hey.

大多数工作中的人都不会这样，“嘿。

You know what I want to do today is start using an entirely new tool and convince all my coworkers to get on board.

你知道我今天想做的是开始使用一个全新的工具并说服我所有的同事加入。

Noah Weiss: That is not part of your job.

诺亚·韦斯：这不是你工作的一部分。

Your job has goals and measurements and everything else.

你的工作有目标、衡量标准以及其他一切。

Really ...

真的...

understanding that.

了解这一点。

How do you push on that in that new user experience?

您如何在新的用户体验中推动这一点？

It sounds maybe a little ludicrous, but Slack always has a free product.

听起来可能有点可笑，但 Slack 总是有免费产品。

Obviously, there's a free tier that you can use, but we had never actually figured out a trial strategy where we actually gave you a taste of the paid product.

显然，您可以使用免费套餐，但我们从未真正制定出让您体验付费产品的试用策略。

Noah Weiss: Either we're on the free tier or we get to pay for the paid tier.

Noah Weiss：我们要么使用免费套餐，要么付费购买付费套餐。

And that wound up being one of, I think the Ripest veins is figuring out how to give people a taste of the full premium Slack experience so that they would never want to go back and doing that in a variety of different points in the customer journey.

我认为，Ripest 的脉络就是想办法让人们体验到完整的优质 Slack 体验，这样他们就再也不想在客户旅程中的各个不同点上重复这样做。

Then I'd say the other biggest thing I would call the one out is we really need to figure out a new north star metric for motivating the teams across Slack.

然后我想说的另一件最重要的事情是我们确实需要找出一个新的北极星指标来激励 Slack 团队。

Noah Weiss: At that point in time, we basically had paid customers and then we had creative teams, which is the very, very beginning, very, very end of the journey.

诺亚·韦斯：当时，我们基本上有了付费客户，然后我们有了创意团队，这是旅程的非常非常的开始，非常非常的结束。

We did a lot of quantitative research and data science and wound up coming up with this new metric we call successful teams, which is a little bit ...

我们做了很多定量研究和数据科学，最终提出了这个我们称之为成功团队的新指标，这有点......

I feel a lot of companies have this Facebook, I'm lucky number seven or whatever it was.

我觉得很多公司都有这个 Facebook，我很幸运第七名或者其他什么。

Noah Weiss: Where what we found was that if you could get five people using Slack, the majority of the work week to just communicate at all, that would be a successful team there were going to be 400% more likely to upgrade over the next six months.

Noah Weiss：我们发现，如果你能让五个人使用 Slack（一周的大部分时间都在进行交流），那么这将是一个成功的团队，在接下来的六个月内升级的可能性将增加 400%。

That seems like a very low bar, five people to use Slack throughout the work week, not even every day.

这似乎是一个非常低的门槛，五个人在整个工作周（甚至不是每天）使用 Slack。

But it turns out that if you could get that level of critical mass the rest would take care of itself.

但事实证明，如果你能达到临界质量，剩下的事情就会迎刃而解。

Noah Weiss: We wound up motivating not just the team that was focused on self-service but all these other feature teams across the company to drive more new successful teams, knowing that if we can move that which is much earlier in the funnel but not a top of funnel metric, then it would actually drive upgrades and paid customers and thus revenue long-term.

Noah Weiss：我们最终不仅激励了专注于自助服务的团队，还激励了整个公司的所有其他功能团队，以推动更多新的成功团队，因为我们知道，如果我们能够移动漏斗中较早的部分，而不是漏斗顶部的指标，那么它实际上会推动升级和付费客户，从而带来长期收入。

That was a huge turning point for how we rally product teams around somebody to actually drive that self-service business.

对于我们如何团结产品团队来真正推动自助服务业务来说，这是一个巨大的转折点。

Lenny: Man, this feels like its own podcast.

莱尼：伙计，这感觉就像它自己的播客。

Just to analyze the things you learned down this journey, and there's so many takeaways here.

只是为了分析您在这段旅程中学到的东西，这里有很多收获。

One is just the importance of an activation metric that is predictive of retention sales.

其中之一就是预测保留销售的激活指标的重要性。

It sounds like you landed on five people in a company like DAU basically for a week, something like that.

听起来好像你在像 DAU 这样的公司里找到了五个人，基本上为期一周，类似的事情。

That's awesome.

太棒了。

Lenny: Then the other interesting takeaway here is I'm actually doing a bunch of interviews with founders of the most successful B2B companies and interestingly, not all, maybe half are like, "I still don't think we have product market fit.

莱尼：那么另一个有趣的收获是，我实际上正在对最成功的 B2B 公司的创始人进行一系列采访，有趣的是，并不是所有的人，也许一半的人都说，“我仍然认为我们的产品不适合市场。

They're at a billion dollars valuation growing crazy." They're like, I feel like I have product market fit with the current users but I don't with the people I want next.

他们的估值达到十亿美元，越来越疯狂。”他们说，我觉得我的产品市场适合当前用户，但我不适合我下一步想要的人。

Noah Weiss: That's exactly right.

诺亚·韦斯：完全正确。

I think that's exactly right.

我认为这是完全正确的。

I think of product market fit is almost like you keep stacking these S-curves where you get product market fit in a small group and then you suddenly reach exponential growth because you can crack that coal group, that type of audience, but then you start declining because you start hitting the ceiling of, we've got in, I don't know what it might be every development team in the US to be using this product.

我认为产品市场契合度几乎就像你不断堆叠这些S曲线，在一个小群体中获得产品市场契合度，然后你突然达到指数增长，因为你可以破解那个煤炭群体，这种类型的受众，但然后你开始下降，因为你开始触及天花板，我们已经进入了，我不知道美国的每个开发团队都在使用这个产品。

Noah Weiss: Then you jump up to the next S-curve, which is like how do we get technology savvy teams that aren't developers or how do we get people who are in large eventerprises who are outside the US.

Noah Weiss：然后你会跳到下一个 S 曲线，这就像我们如何获得非开发人员的技术娴熟的团队，或者我们如何获得美国境外大型企业的人员。

Each become new curves that you have to build product market fit for.

每一条都成为新的曲线，您必须构建适合市场的产品。

I think it's just all a huge exercise in being self-critical, being humble, not presuming that you've cracked this thing forever and keeping kind of a very beginner's mindset of what does the next audience need.

我认为这只是一个自我批评、谦虚的巨大练习，不要假设你已经永远解决了这个问题，并对下一个观众需要什么保持一种非常初学者的心态。

"

”

Noah Weiss: Your previous audience.

诺亚·韦斯：你以前的观众。

Didn't need it all.

不需要这一切。

Lenny: If you think about the pie chart of what you had to change to make it work, how much of it was it messaging, positioning, onboarding, optimization versus product features?

Lenny：如果你想一下饼图，你必须改变什么才能使其发挥作用，其中有多少是消息传递、定位、引导、优化与产品功能？

Noah Weiss: I would say maybe 60-40 in the sense of the early journey.

Noah Weiss：我想说，从早期旅程的意义上来说，可能是 60-40。

I mean not just obviously positioning messaging, but the entire experience of unboxing Slack if you will with your team.

我的意思不仅仅是明显定位消息传递，而是如果您愿意与您的团队一起拆箱 Slack 的整个体验。

We called it the day one journey, but extended to really kind of day 30 in reality and it's a single player and multiplayer experience.

我们将其称为“第一天旅程”，但实际上扩展到了第 30 天，这是单人游戏和多人游戏体验。

It is really complex.

这真的很复杂。

Noah Weiss: But then I think what we realized was you can make that incredible, but if fundamental parts of the product were missing that would make it comprehensible to the next audience, then you're going to have problems.

诺亚·韦斯：但后来我认为我们意识到你可以把它做得令人难以置信，但如果产品的基本部分缺失而无法被下一个观众理解，那么你就会遇到问题。

It sounds maybe impossible to remember, but Slack used to not have wizzywig message composition.

听起来可能不太可能记住，但 Slack 过去没有 wizzywig 消息撰写功能。

Noah Weiss: You used to have to use mar, down.

Noah Weiss：你过去必须使用 mar，down。

Making that wizzywig was a huge boost making mobile work offline so it worked no matter where you were in the world was another big one.

制作 Wizzywig 是一个巨大的推动力，使移动设备可以离线工作，因此无论你在世界的哪个地方它都可以工作，这是另一大进步。

All the things about configuring your sidebar notification so that as you scale it you should just Slack it and become overwhelming.

所有关于配置侧边栏通知的事情，以便当您缩放它时，您应该放松它并变得势不可挡。

Those are some of the foundational product investments that we wound up making so that next generation of Slack customers could get value and not be overwhelmed or daunted by it.

这些是我们最终进行的一些基础产品投资，以便下一代 Slack 客户能够获得价值，而不是被它淹没或吓倒。

Lenny: Maybe one last question along these lines, people look at Slack as maybe the first major product-led growth success story and they always look at Slack of like, "Oh, we just want to grow Slack.

Lenny：也许最后一个问题是，人们将 Slack 视为第一个以产品为主导的增长成功故事，他们总是这样看待 Slack：“哦，我们只是想发展 Slack。

Let's see what they did." For people that are studying Slack's journey and success, what do you think Slack did right early on that maybe people don't recognize or don't appreciate enough that founders today should be thinking about more so versus just like let's just make a freemium product.

让我们看看他们做了什么。”对于那些正在研究 Slack 的历程和成功的人来说，您认为 Slack 早期做了哪些正确的事情，也许人们没有认识到或没有足够欣赏今天的创始人应该更多地考虑这一点，而不是像让我们制作一个免费增值产品一样。

Noah Weiss: Right.

诺亚·韦斯：对。

I mean, I think, maybe the most telling thing is when Slack started, certainly when I joined still, I don't think a word or acronym product-led growth existed.

我的意思是，我认为，也许最有说服力的事情是当 Slack 开始时，当然当我加入时，我认为产品主导的增长不存在。

It wasn't like we were really good at taking this playbook and applying it.

我们并不真正擅长接受并应用这本剧本。

I think it was more that whole term of art became a thing as maybe many other freemium SaaS products took off.

我认为更重要的是，随着许多其他免费增值 SaaS 产品的腾飞，整个艺术术语已经成为一种事物。

Noah Weiss: Not to be repetitive.

诺亚·韦斯：不再重复。

But I think the core of it really was building a product that customers loved enough that they would put their own social capital on the line to get their coworkers on board 5 to 50 people." At the time the biggest company I imagined using Slack was 50 people because I don't know how this is going to work beyond that, maybe it'll become pandemonium.

但我认为它的核心实际上是打造一款客户足够喜爱的产品，以至于他们愿意投入自己的社会资本，让自己的同事加入 5 到 50 人的团队。”当时，我想象使用 Slack 的最大公司有 50 人，因为我不知道这将如何运作，超出这个范围，也许会变得混乱。

Obviously, that was the initial, I think real, real strong product market fit.

显然，我认为这是最初的、真正强大的产品市场契合度。

Noah Weiss: But the other bit which then was what powered the enterprise business was teams of 5 to 50 people who worked at larger companies.

Noah Weiss：但当时推动企业业务的另一部分是在大公司工作的 5 到 50 人的团队。

I think what wound up happening was that you would have teams that was independently at a company like IBM or Disney or Capital One or whoever it might be, or Comcast discovering Slack using it for themselves because they thought it would just make their working lives simpler, more pleasant, more productive, and maybe not even know that anyone else at the company was using Slack.

我认为最终发生的情况是，你会在像 IBM、迪士尼、第一资本或任何其他公司这样的公司中拥有独立的团队，或者康卡斯特发现 Slack 为自己使用它，因为他们认为这只会让他们的工作生活更简单、更愉快、更有效率，甚至可能不知道公司的其他人也在使用 Slack。

Noah Weiss: Then by the time we then scaled our enterprise sales team, I mean, truly the exercise initially was just take customer domain, sort by number of active users and call them in the order of that which is, "Hey, by the way, you have a couple thousand people actually using Slack at your company.

Noah Weiss：然后，当我们扩展我们的企业销售团队时，我的意思是，最初的练习实际上只是获取客户领域，按活跃用户数量排序，然后按顺序调用他们，“嘿，顺便说一句，你的公司有几千人实际使用 Slack。

Do you want to think about a broader deployment or controls or analytics?"

您想考虑更广泛的部署、控制或分析吗？”

Noah Weiss: I think that was it.

诺亚·韦斯：我想就是这样。

That's consumer great experience that customers love enough to get their coworkers on and pay for themselves.

这是消费者非常喜欢的体验，足以吸引他们的同事并为自己付费。

Then at enterprise companies like having a bunch of different flowers sprouting so that eventually you could roll up an enterprise-wide deal and then was all the tactics.

然后在企业公司，就像让一束不同的花朵发芽，这样最终你就可以达成整个企业范围的交易，然后就是所有的策略。

But I think that that was where it started.

但我认为这就是事情的开始。

Lenny: The way you described it at the beginning of make a product that people want to share with their colleagues reminds me of a ...

莱尼：你在开始制作人们想要与同事分享的产品时所描述的方式让我想起了......

I was just listening to an interview with Seth Godin who's this marketing legend.

我刚刚在听营销传奇人物塞斯·戈丁 (Seth Godin) 的采访。

I think he has a new book.

我认为他有一本新书。

He is on every podcast.

他出现在每个播客上。

He had this really great quote that the products that win are ones that you want to tell your friends about.

他有一句非常好的名言：获胜的产品是那些你想告诉你的朋友的产品。

Lenny: It's a really simple concept.

莱尼：这是一个非常简单的概念。

Basically, it's like it's word of mouth is how you have to win.

基本上，就好像口碑是你获胜的方式。

But I think that's so true and every successful company I talk to ends up being like, "We just want to build something people want to share with their friends," even if it's growing in some other way, SEO paid feels like that's always at the root of it is you just want to tell your friends about it because you love it.

但我认为这是千真万确的，我接触过的每家成功的公司最终都会说，“我们只是想打造一些人们想与朋友分享的东西”，即使它以其他方式增长，付费搜索引擎优化感觉它的根源始终是你只是想告诉你的朋友，因为你喜欢它。

Slack I think is a great example of that.

我认为 Slack 就是一个很好的例子。

Noah Weiss: I think that's true.

诺亚·韦斯：我认为这是真的。

I mean obviously, there are categories of enterprise software that isn't true for in security or ...

我的意思显然是，有些类别的企业软件并不适合安全或......

Lenny: But even that I think if it's an awesome security product you're like, "Hey, you got to check out this century or whatever or sneak."

莱尼：但即便如此，我认为如果这是一个很棒的安全产品，你会喜欢，“嘿，你必须看看本世纪或其他什么，或者偷偷摸摸。”

Noah Weiss: Yeah.

诺亚·韦斯：是的。

Good friends with Vanta's CEO Christina.

与Vanta的CEO Christina是好朋友。

I feel like they run those stories where whoever would've thought that a compliance company would be something that people raved about to their other startup friends, like, "Oh, my God.

我觉得他们在讲述那些故事时，无论谁会想到一家合规公司会成为人们对其他初创公司朋友赞不绝口的东西，就像，“哦，天哪。

You don't want to deal with SOC's compliance?

您不想处理 SOC 合规性问题吗？

You got in Vanta.

你到了万塔。

It's amazing."

太棒了。”

Noah Weiss: Yeah.

诺亚·韦斯：是的。

Maybe that is true.

也许这是真的。

I think especially in this day and age where all the marketing acquisition channels have been so saturated, people optimizing so much, I think it's really hard to scale a big enough business if you don't have some amount of word of mouth and customer love driven growth.

我认为特别是在当今时代，所有营销获取渠道都已如此饱和，人们进行了如此多的优化，我认为如果您没有一定的口碑和客户喜爱驱动的增长，那么很难扩展足够大的业务。

I think it's hard to scale it on like, "We're going to just play the cat game and in hopes that the numbers work out."

我认为很难像“我们只是玩猫游戏并希望数字能够解决问题”那样进行扩展。

Lenny: I remember Slack rolling out at Airbnb and all the designers getting so excited about it, creating their channels and everyone's just like, "What the hell are they doing as this thing?" Then it did exactly what you're describing just spread.

Lenny：我记得 Slack 在 Airbnb 推出，所有设计师都对此感到非常兴奋，创建了他们的频道，每个人都在想，“他们到底在做什么？”然后它就按照你所描述的那样传播了。

Everyone's just like, "Whoa, this is cool." They're all telling each other that how useful it is to them and spread like crazy.

每个人都会说：“哇，这太酷了。”他们都在告诉对方这对他们有多么有用，并且疯狂地传播。

Lenny: Is there anything else on Slack that you think would be interesting to share in terms of what makes it a successful product team, product business before I move on to another topic?

Lenny：在我开始讨论另一个主题之前，您认为 Slack 上还有什么值得分享的关于它成为成功的产品团队和产品业务的内容吗？

Noah Weiss: The other thing I think is maybe a little bit interesting in terms of how we develop product and it's really different and it's changed over time, which is that obviously the easiest person to build for is yourself and the next easiest is people who look almost exactly like you or have similar preferences and sophistication.

诺亚·韦斯（Noah Weiss）：我认为另一件事可能有点有趣，就我们如何开发产品而言，它确实不同，并且随着时间的推移而变化，这显然是最容易为你自己构建的人，其次是那些看起来几乎与你一模一样或具有相似偏好和成熟度的人。

I think in the early days of Slack, that's basically what we did.

我认为在 Slack 的早期，我们基本上就是这么做的。

Noah Weiss: I mean it was really just trying to build for small technologically savvy teams in terms of you could build a pretty big business making a great product for them.

诺亚·韦斯（Noah Weiss）：我的意思是，它实际上只是试图为小型技术精湛的团队构建，因为你可以建立一个相当大的业务，为他们生产出色的产品。

Over the years, obviously, that's changed.

显然，多年来，情况发生了变化。

One of the things I think that we've done, which has worked really well, one obviously is we've figured out how to do experimentation in a SaaS product, which is not always obvious because the metrics are much longer term than you land at a checkout page and then you hit Checkout.

我认为我们已经完成的一件事非常有效，其中一件显然是我们已经弄清楚如何在 SaaS 产品中进行实验，这并不总是显而易见的，因为指标的期限比您登陆结账页面然后点击结账的期限要长得多。

Noah Weiss: But I think the other thing is we figured out how to scale up getting real customers using Slack in the wilds for new functionality.

Noah Weiss：但我认为另一件事是我们想出了如何在野外使用 Slack 来扩大吸引真正客户的新功能。

We have this really robust program that we call our pilot program where we have, I don't know, probably thousands of different customers that have all signed different agreements now where we can actually roll out to progressively larger user bases, because Slack is a multiplayer product.

我们有一个非常强大的计划，我们称之为试点计划，我不知道，我们可能有数千个不同的客户，他们都签署了不同的协议，现在我们实际上可以向更大的用户群推出，因为 Slack 是一款多人产品。

Noah Weiss: You often have to roll out real net new functionality to a whole company or whole team because otherwise you can't use huddles by yourself, for example.

Noah Weiss：例如，您经常必须向整个公司或整个团队推出真正的网络新功能，否则您无法自己使用临时会议。

Then we have a really great program for actually getting feedback from those customers both through Slack connect itself through surveys and this winds up being a lifeblood of feature teams where you can, by the time you actually launch a big net new feature for Slack, have done so much customer feedback from people actually using in the wild to get work done and so much more confidence in what you're building from the metrics and the surveys that we do that you know can't guarantee it's going to be a hit.

然后，我们有一个非常出色的计划，可以通过 Slack 连接本身和调查来实际获取这些客户的反馈，这最终会成为功能团队的命脉，当您真正为 Slack 推出一项大型网络新功能时，您已经从实际使用的人们那里获得了很多客户反馈来完成工作，并且对您从指标和调查中构建的内容更有信心，但您知道我们无法保证它会大受欢迎。

Noah Weiss: But you can be really confident not because it just worked well internally, which is no longer that predictive, but because it worked well for a thousand different companies, in 50 different countries, in 20 different industries.

诺亚·韦斯：但你可以真正自信，不是因为它在内部运作良好（这不再是预测性的），而是因为它对 50 个不同国家、20 个不同行业的 1000 家不同公司运作良好。

I think not early on SaaS companies don't need to figure that out, but I think as you grow and as you have a more diverse customer base as you said all these SaaS founders who said, "Hey, you got to keep reestablishing product market fit."

我认为 SaaS 公司在早期不需要弄清楚这一点，但我认为随着你的成长和你拥有更多样化的客户群，正如你所说的所有 SaaS 创始人所说的那样，“嘿，你必须不断重建产品市场契合度。”

Noah Weiss: I think that is a programmatic way of being able to do that with your product development process.

Noah Weiss：我认为这是一种能够在产品开发过程中做到这一点的编程方式。

That's pretty interesting.

这很有趣。

Lenny: Any tips for how to choose who to include in this group if someone wants to build something like this for themselves?

Lenny：如果有人想为自己构建这样的东西，有什么关于如何选择将谁纳入该组的建议吗？

Noah Weiss: I think the two most important things are you want a lot of diversity in terms of industry, company size, location and so on.

诺亚·韦斯：我认为最重要的两件事是你希望在行业、公司规模、地点等方面有很大的多样性。

I think you want to pick people who are actually motivated to want to be part of the development process and have a slightly higher risk tolerance.

我认为你想要挑选那些真正有动力想要参与开发过程并且具有稍高风险承受能力的人。

Not every company wants to actually be beta testing new functionality that might get removed.

并非每家公司都希望对可能被删除的新功能进行实际 Beta 测试。

Noah Weiss: Making sure we have this champion network that we built that people who love Slack enough that they're willing to put up with a little bit of pain in that rougher period are willing to have something that they try to use and then we decide actually we're going to kill that feature before we ever ship it to everybody.

Noah Weiss：确保我们拥有这个冠军网络，我们建立了这个冠军网络，让那些足够热爱 Slack 的人愿意在那个困难时期忍受一点痛苦，并愿意拥有他们尝试使用的东西，然后我们决定实际上我们将在将其交付给每个人之前取消该功能。

Diversity and pain tolerance.

多样性和疼痛耐受性。

Lenny: This reminds me of something else, the CTO Stripe shared of how they build new product, which is they pick a couple customers that need a problem solved and they just build it for them essentially and with them and in B2B.

Lenny：这让我想起了另一件事，Stripe 首席技术官分享了他们如何构建新产品，即他们选择了一些需要解决问题的客户，然后他们只是本质上与他们一起以 B2B 方式为他们构建它。

Generally, it's a lot easier to build something people really want because they are very motivated for you to solve their problem and they're going to put in the time.

一般来说，构建人们真正想要的东西要容易得多，因为他们非常有动力让你解决他们的问题，并且他们会投入时间。

You don't need a thousands of people involved, you just need a couple.

你不需要成千上万的人参与，你只需要几个人。

Noah Weiss: Yeah.

诺亚·韦斯：是的。

I definitely think it was one of those things where if you can do it away and they say I can't live without it, the classic not ...

我绝对认为这是其中之一，如果你能把它去掉，他们说我没有它就活不下去，经典不是......

Do you like it?

你喜欢吗？

Sure.

当然。

But can you work without this thing?

但是没有这个东西你能工作吗？

If the answer is definitely not, you've built something that probably a lot of other companies will want to.

如果答案肯定是否定的，那么您已经构建了许多其他公司可能想要的东西。

Lenny: All right.

莱尼：好吧。

I'm going to shift to a totally different topic, which could also be its own whole podcast, but let's just see how it goes.

我将转向一个完全不同的主题，这也可能是它自己的整个播客，但让我们看看它进展如何。

You're with this, I'd say famous blog post on product management called The 10 Traits of Great Product Managers.

我想说的是关于产品管理的著名博客文章《伟大产品经理的 10 个特质》。

I want to just try to go through this list briefly and just see how it goes.

我想简单地浏览一下这个列表，看看它进展如何。

This could be an hour of conversation.

这可能是一个小时的谈话。

But let's just run through it, because I think it'd be useful for people to hear and I think these are all 100% true even though you wrote this number of years ago at this point and let's just see what comes up.

但让我们简单介绍一下，因为我认为这对人们听到很有用，而且我认为这些都是 100% 真实的，即使你是在几年前写的，让我们看看会发生什么。

Then I have a few follow-up questions on this list.

然后我对此列表有一些后续问题。

Noah Weiss: These traits are ...

诺亚·韦斯：这些特征是......

I wrote this other thing, which is the five minutes about product management, which are all the things that people think product management is and why they switch to the job and they're disappointed by.

我写了另一件事，这是关于产品管理的五分钟，这就是人们认为产品管理是什么以及为什么他们转行并感到失望的所有事情。

Then I was like, "Let me actually write a positive version of this," which is the things that the job actually is about.

然后我想，“让我实际上写一个积极的版本”，这就是这份工作实际上的内容。

It's not a career ladder.

这不是职业阶梯。

It's not the, "Here's the structured interview things that you should interview for."

这不是“这是你应该面试的结构化面试内容”。

Noah Weiss: But I think it's the actual job of product management, what is it about, what does success look like?

诺亚·韦斯：但我认为这是产品管理的实际工作，它是关于什么的，成功是什么样子的？

I don't think they're really in a particular order in hindsight, but I'll read them in order.

事后看来，我认为它们并不是真正按照特定的顺序排列的，但我会按顺序阅读它们。

Living the future and work backwards I think is very much the idea of as a PM is one thing they're responsible for.

我认为，面向未来、向后工作，这在很大程度上是作为 PM 的职责之一。

It's having a longer-term vision and time horizon.

它具有更长远的愿景和时间范围。

How do you carve out time to not just be what are we doing over the next two weeks.

你如何腾出时间，不只是做我们接下来两周要做的事情。

Noah Weiss: But six months, a year, two years from now, how do you immerse yourself in them and bring ideas back, bring inspiration back to the team.

诺亚·韦斯：但是从现在起六个月、一年、两年后，你如何让自己沉浸其中并带回想法，将灵感带回团队。

Lenny: I'm going to just going to throw comments at as you're going through them, just add to them.

莱尼：我将在你浏览这些评论时提出评论，然后添加到其中。

I love that this is exactly Amazon's approach of work backwards, working backwards process.

我喜欢这正是亚马逊的逆向工作方法、逆向工作流程。

At Airbnb, this is actually the main thing Brian want pushed everyone to do is just think about the idealized product of a magical world where this is totally solid and then work backwards from that.

在 Airbnb，这实际上是 Brian 希望推动每个人做的主要事情，就是思考一个完全可靠的神奇世界的理想化产品，然后从那里开始逆向工作。

Then Paul Graham talks about this, too, just live in the future and build it.

然后保罗·格雷厄姆也谈到了这一点，活在未来并建设它。

Noah Weiss: I definitely riffed off at least the Paul Graham thing because I remember reading that essay of he thinks everyone thinks that you can get ideas by, I don't know, sitting with their co-founder laying in Dolores Park looking up at the sky and conjuring up the next unicorn or something.

诺亚·韦斯：我肯定至少重复了保罗·格雷厄姆的事情，因为我记得读过那篇文章，他认为每个人都认为你可以通过（我不知道）和他们的联合创始人坐在多洛雷斯公园仰望天空并召唤下一个独角兽之类的东西来获得想法。

Definitely not how that works.

绝对不是这样的。

You have to actually immerse yourself in the problem space and try to imagine what the future world looks like and then what's missing for people to get to that future state.

你必须真正让自己沉浸在问题空间中，并尝试想象未来世界是什么样子，然后人们要达到未来状态还缺少什么。

Yeah.

是的。

I agree.

我同意。

Lenny: I also saw a great tweet by the other day about how if you're working at a company with good leaders, they're never going to be sad that your vision is too big and too ambitious.

莱尼：前几天我还看到了一条很棒的推文，内容是如果你在一家拥有优秀领导者的公司工作，他们永远不会因为你的愿景太大、太雄心勃勃而感到悲伤。

If there's some reality to it that often they want that just like, "Let's go.

如果有一些现实，他们通常会想要这样，“我们走吧。

Let's think bigger.

让我们想得更大一些。

How do we change the way we think about the future of all this stuff?"

我们如何改变我们对所有这些东西的未来的思考方式？”

Noah Weiss: Yeah.

诺亚·韦斯：是的。

I mean that was when I was at Google, the thing I took away most from any review with Larry and Sergei was they would ask how could we get 100X the scale or how could this work for this, would seem like an outlandish use case but would push the team to think much further into the future.

我的意思是，当我在 Google 时，我从 Larry 和 Sergei 的任何评论中得到的最多的东西是，他们会问我们如何才能获得 100 倍的规模，或者如何才能做到这一点，这看起来像是一个奇怪的用例，但会促使团队对未来进行更深入的思考。

Yeah.

是的。

I think definitely what the founders always want.

我认为这绝对是创始人一直想要的。

Lenny: That's what Brian Chesky always said too, just like, "How do we 10X this?

Lenny：这也是 Brian Chesky 经常说的，就像“我们如何将其扩大 10 倍？

What would it take to 10X this idea?

怎样才能将这个想法实现 10 倍？

Noah Weiss: Okay.

诺亚·韦斯：好的。

The second one, which is maybe obvious, but thinking about how do you actually amplify your team?

第二个可能是显而易见的，但想想如何真正扩大你的团队？

How do you facilitate ideas?

你如何促进想法的实现？

How do you create energy?

你如何创造能量？

How do you create momentum?

如何创造动力？

A PM role I think can be a little bit unsatisfying if you're useful, where you create things yourself opposed to you are the one who's amplifying what the work that's being created by everyone else is.

我认为，如果你是有用的，PM 角色可能会有点不令人满意，因为你自己创造的东西与你相反，是放大其他人正在创造的工作的人。

You have to get into that more of a facilitator mindset.

你必须更多地采用引导者的心态。

Lenny: What I think about here is a lot of teams don't want PMs on their team or don't like PMs or don't think PMs are valuable.

Lenny：我的想法是，很多团队不希望 PM 加入他们的团队，或者不喜欢 PM，或者认为 PM 没有价值。

What I find is that just means your PMs not good because if you have a good PM, they're just going to help you do the best work of your life.

我发现这仅仅意味着你的产品经理不好，因为如果你有一个好的产品经理，他们只会帮助你做你一生中最好的工作。

They're going to help you clarify things, prioritize well, unblock you, all that stuff.

他们会帮助你澄清事情，确定优先顺序，为你解除障碍，等等。

Noah Weiss: Totally.

诺亚·韦斯：完全可以。

I wish should find out who wrote that expression early on of PM should be mini-CEOs.

我希望找出谁在早期写下 PM 应该是迷你首席执行官这句话。

I think that's the most dangerous piece of advice ever in the history of product management because I think that is how you end up having PMs who try to act like dictators instead of leaders and facilitators.

我认为这是产品管理历史上最危险的建议，因为我认为这就是为什么你最终会出现试图表现得像独裁者而不是领导者和促进者的产品经理。

Because if you're acting like that, yeah, your team can completely reject you and say I never want another PM again.

因为如果你这样做，是的，你的团队可以完全拒绝你，并说我再也不想再有另一位总理了。

Lenny: Yeah.

莱尼：是的。

So many UPMs are just like, "I'm finally going to have the power, finally." If they move from engineering or some other role and then they get there like, "Oh, what the hell?

很多芬欧汇川都会说，“我终于拥有了权力，终于。”如果他们从工程或其他职位跳槽，然后他们会说：“哦，到底是什么？

Is that to convince everyone of all these things I want to do?"

这是为了让所有人相信我想做的事情吗？”

Noah Weiss: That actually, I'm going to skip in a slightly different direction of the order of this post.

诺亚·韦斯：实际上，我将按照与本文顺序略有不同的方向跳过。

But the fifth one that I wrote in there was your job as to facilitate the pace and quality of decision making.

但我在那里写的第五条是你的工作，以促进决策的速度和质量。

That is very different than you are the person who makes all the decisions.

这与做出所有决定的人有很大不同。

In fact, I think one of the things that PM struggled with early on is how do you actually get the team to be able to make high quality decisions quickly without you arbitrarily playing tiebreaker all the time.

事实上，我认为 PM 早期遇到的困难之一是如何真正让团队能够快速做出高质量的决策，而无需一直随意进行决胜局。

Noah Weiss: It's a soft art to be able to do that.

Noah Weiss：能够做到这一点是一门软艺术。

But I think that is actually how you have a really healthy team dynamic instead of PM to want to say, "Okay.

但我认为这实际上就是如何拥有一个真正健康的团队活力，而不是 PM 想说：“好吧。

Now it's my turn to get to make the decisions." It's definitely not what the job is about.

现在轮到我做决定了。”这绝对不是这份工作的目的。

Lenny: What that makes me think about is I taught a course on product management at one point that I paused for now of just the core job of a PM is to figure out what's next for every single person on the team.

Lenny：这让我想到的是，我曾教过一门产品管理课程，现在我暂停了课程，PM 的核心工作就是弄清楚团队中每个人的下一步是什么。

There's this meme or GIF of a dog on a train and he's just laying the tracks as the team is moving forward ahead of them just one step at a time.

有这样一张表情包或动图：一只狗在火车上，他正在铺设铁轨，而团队则一步一步向前推进。

To do that, this is such an important part of that is just help people make decisions, unblock them.

要做到这一点，这是非常重要的一部分，就是帮助人们做出决定，解除他们的障碍。

Noah Weiss: Totally.

诺亚·韦斯：完全可以。

I'll combine two of these together.

我会将其中两个结合在一起。

One is you do have to have impeccable execution.

一是你必须有无可挑剔的执行力。

This is more of a baseline thing.

这更多的是一个基线问题。

But I've never seen a PM who was disorganized or didn't do follow-up or wasn't clear about expectations or timelines.

但我从未见过一个组织混乱、不跟进、不清楚期望或时间表的 PM。

It's not high in Maslow's hierarchy of PM enjoyment.

在马斯洛的 PM 享受等级中，它并不高。

But I do think it's a baseline expectation.

但我确实认为这是一个基线期望。

Noah Weiss: The thing I think is more enjoyable and probably the most important thing in the long-term is focusing on impact primarily to the customer experience but also to the business.

诺亚·韦斯：我认为更令人愉快的事情，从长远来看可能是最重要的事情是关注主要对客户体验和业务的影响。

I think there's that saying growth solves all problems.

我认为有句话说，增长可以解决所有问题。

I think impact solves all PM issues, which is if a team is consistently building things people love and changing the director of the business, everything else is just an input.

我认为影响力解决了所有 PM 问题，也就是说，如果一个团队始终如一地打造人们喜欢的东西并更换业务总监，那么其他一切都只是输入。

Noah Weiss: I think that focus and understanding as your point about laying the tracks is what direction do you need to go as a team to actually drive that impact?

诺亚·韦斯（Noah Weiss）：我认为，作为您关于铺设轨道的观点，重点和理解是您作为一个团队需要朝什么方向发展才能真正推动这种影响？

That's probably the single thing that PM can most control.

这可能是 PM 最能控制的一件事。

Lenny: I love that.

莱尼：我喜欢这个。

I always recommend exactly that if your career is not going as well as you'd hoped or you're not getting promoted, it's usually you're not delivering impact, whatever that means to the company.

我总是准确地建议，如果你的职业发展不如你所希望的那样，或者你没有得到晋升，通常是你没有产生影响，无论这对公司意味着什么。

It may be moving a metric may mean building great product that the founders really love.

它可能正在改变一个指标，可能意味着构建创始人真正喜欢的伟大产品。

Lenny: Main impact can mean a lot of different things.

莱尼：主要影响可能意味着很多不同的事情。

But it's so true.

但这是真的。

On the executing impeccably bucket, the way I think about that is as a great PM you need to have this aura of "I've got this." Anytime someone puts something on your plate, it's not going to fall off.

在完美执行方面，我的想法是，作为一名出色的产品经理，你需要拥有“我已经做到了”的光环。任何时候有人把东西放在你的盘子上，它都不会掉下来。

You're not going to forget about it.

你不会忘记它的。

You're not going to let a ball drop that if the more you can create this aura of "I got this," the more responsibility people are going to give you, the more impact you'll end up having, the more people want to work with you and all that.

你不会让球掉下来，如果你越能创造出“我明白了”的光环，人们就会给你越多的责任，你最终会产生更大的影响力，越多的人愿意与你合作等等。

Noah Weiss: Yeah.

诺亚·韦斯：是的。

Ben Horowitz was a board member back at Foursquare.

本·霍洛维茨 (Ben Horowitz) 曾是 Foursquare 的董事会成员。

I remember he used to have this saying very Yoda of good leaders need to say what they're going to do and then do what they said.

我记得他曾经说过这样一句话：优秀的领导者需要说出他们要做什么，然后按照他们所说的去做。

If they can't then they need to follow up and explain why.

如果他们不能，那么他们需要跟进并解释原因。

I mean that's like the amendment and I think that is what good execution looks like.

我的意思是，这就像修正案一样，我认为这就是良好的执行力。

Lenny: That last point is so important.

莱尼：最后一点非常重要。

You may not be able to do all the things on your plate, but just telling people.

你可能无法完成手头上的所有事情，而只能告诉别人。

Hey, I'm not going to get to this thing.

嘿，我不打算谈这件事。

Let's reprioritize as such a small thing you could do and really creates that, or if you got this, they're not going to forget about this thing asked you to do.

让我们重新确定你可以做的一件小事的优先顺序，并真正创造它，或者如果你做到了这一点，他们就不会忘记要求你做的这件事。

Noah Weiss: Yeah.

诺亚·韦斯：是的。

You're the shock absorber for the team.

你是团队的减震器。

You're the thing that builds people's confidence that things are going to be running smoothly and you'll get over the Navajo speed bumps and whatever else.

你可以让人们相信事情会顺利进行，你会克服纳瓦霍的减速带和其他任何事情。

I'll combine two or three of these that are related or just more skills.

我将结合其中两个或三个相关的技能或只是更多的技能。

I said right well.

我说得好。

I actually think especially as you get to more senior positions, writing is the only scalable way of having influence on a larger, larger product org.

我实际上认为，尤其是当你担任更高级的职位时，写作是对越来越大的产品组织产生影响的唯一可扩展的方式。

Noah Weiss: There's a book called On Writing by Stephen King, which I recommend to literally everybody.

诺亚·韦斯：史蒂芬·金有一本书叫《论写作》，我几乎向所有人推荐这本书。

Stephen King, you're like ...

史蒂芬·金，你就像...

See he's not maybe the most literary critical acclaimed author, but he's a prolific author who publishes things that people love and tell their friends about and he has a great short book on the practice of writing high-quality, high-volume production.

你看，他也许不是最受文学评论界好评的作家，但他是一位多产的作家，出版了人们喜欢并告诉朋友的东西，他有一本很棒的短书，讲述了写作高质量、大批量作品的实践。

Lenny: Before you move on, I'll throw a couple more books that I found useful in my writing.

莱尼：在你继续之前，我会再扔几本我认为对我的写作有用的书。

One is actually called On Writing Well.

其中一个实际上叫做《论写作好》。

That's funny that they're so similarly titled, which basically every chapter is just another way to cut more from your writing.

有趣的是，它们的标题如此相似，基本上每一章都只是从你的写作中削减更多内容的另一种方式。

More and more parts you should cut.

你应该切割的部分越来越多。

Interestingly, I do have a lot of guest posts in my newsletter and I find 90% of the time if I just cut the first paragraph of what they first took a crack at and jumps straight into the thing, immediately gets better.

有趣的是，我的时事通讯中确实有很多客座帖子，我发现 90% 的情况下，如果我只是剪掉他们第一次尝试的第一段并直接跳入其中，就会立即变得更好。

This book talks a lot about that.

这本书对此谈了很多。

Lenny: Another book that is amazing for writing better is Nobody Wants to Read Your Shit by the guy that wrote The War of Art, forget his name.

莱尼：另一本写得更好的书是《没人想读你的狗屎》，作者是《艺术之战》的作者，忘记他的名字了。

But that book is awesome and it's just like nobody wants to read what you're writing.

但这本书太棒了，就像没有人愿意读你写的东西一样。

Here's how to maybe make it something people want to read.

以下是如何让它成为人们想要阅读的内容。

Then recently I read one called Several Short Sentences or something like that.

最近我读了一本叫做《几个短句》之类的书。

It's all about just writing short sentences and that helps a lot.

这只是写短句子，这很有帮助。

There you go.

就这样吧。

Three more recommendations.

还有三个建议。

Noah Weiss: Okay.

诺亚·韦斯：好的。

I got to read the last two.

我得读最后两本。

I haven't read those, but they sound perfect.

我还没读过这些，但听起来很完美。

Okay.

好的。

Maybe I'll throw one more.

也许我会再扔一个。

Let's say we talked about this earlier, but actually read this in the post many years ago, is optimizing for the pace of learning and knowing that long-term massive thing that's going to drive impact.

假设我们之前讨论过这一点，但实际上在多年前就在帖子中读到过这一点，正在优化学习的节奏，并知道长期的巨大事情将产生影响。

I think it can be hard if you're a PM for a feature team.

我认为如果你是一个功能团队的 PM，这可能会很困难。

You're part of a big company.

你是一家大公司的一员。

I don't know.

我不知道。

I'm making this up.

我正在弥补这个。

Noah Weiss: You're on the AdWords team at Google and you're responsible for the bid input selector or something and probably is a whole team, honestly, now at this point.

Noah Weiss：您是 Google AdWords 团队的成员，负责出价输入选择器之类的工作，老实说，现在可能是一个完整的团队。

You've got such a set of blinders on that I think it can be hard to think about what else could this team become, what else could you drive beyond the thing that's right in front of you?

你的眼罩如此之大，我认为你很难去思考这支球队还能成为什么，你还能超越你面前的东西？

Noah Weiss: Optimizing for learning, being willing to take those bolder bets, knowing you can be wrong in the short-term, but that you'll learn new levers that will be really fruitful in the long-term.

诺亚·韦斯（Noah Weiss）：优化学习，愿意进行更大胆的赌注，知道你在短期内可能会犯错，但你会学到新的杠杆，从长远来看，这些杠杆将真正富有成效。

It's a portfolio approach to product, but I think a really important one.

这是一种产品组合方法，但我认为非常重要。

Lenny: I was just interviewing a product leader at Asana, Paige Costello.

Lenny：我刚刚采访了 Asana 的产品负责人 Paige Costello。

We were talking about how she's often the youngest person in the room and often manages people that are much older than her and more experienced than her and asked her just how do you that?

我们谈到她经常是房间里最年轻的人，经常管理比她年长得多、比她更有经验的人，并问她你是怎么做到的？

How do you succeed in that environment?

你如何在那样的环境中取得成功？

Lenny: What she's found is just being the person that has the answers and the insights in meetings, people obviously run to her like, "Hey, what do you think of this?" Because she just knows what people are going to need.

莱尼：她发现自己只是在会议中拥有答案和见解的人，人们显然会跑向她，就像，“嘿，你觉得这怎么样？”因为她知道人们需要什么。

I think that's exactly what you're talking about here is just be the person that knows the most about the problem, the customers, the space.

我认为这正是你在这里所说的，就是成为最了解问题、客户和空间的人。

Noah Weiss: Yeah.

诺亚·韦斯：是的。

Then I'll combine the last two just because I know time.

然后我会把后两个结合起来，因为我知道时间。

But the combination of ...

但结合...

I wrote data fluency, which is not to say that every PM needs to be a statistician.

我写的是数据流畅性，并不是说每个PM都需要成为统计学家。

I mean it's great.

我的意思是这太棒了。

I mean you've had a lot of great posts about how to understand some of the basics of experimentation, correlation, causation and statistical significance.

我的意思是，您已经发表了很多关于如何理解实验、相关性、因果关系和统计显着性等基础知识的精彩帖子。

That's all great.

这一切都很棒。

Noah Weiss: But by data fluency, I think it's more actually what you were just saying, which is you know enough about the insights about your customers that it can then inform making higher likelihood product bets and that data can be quantitative, that data can be survey based, it can be from doing 100 meetings with customers yourself.

诺亚·韦斯：但就数据流畅性而言，我认为这实际上更符合您刚才所说的，即您对客户的洞察有足够的了解，从而可以为做出更高可能性的产品押注提供信息，并且数据可以是定量的，数据可以基于调查，可以来自您自己与客户进行的 100 次会议。

Those are all types of data inputs to me.

这些都是我输入的所有类型的数据。

Being really fluent and then maybe combining that with great product taste.

非常流利，然后可能将其与出色的产品品味相结合。

Noah Weiss: I know it's a controversial statement now to say that there is taste for product.

诺亚·韦斯：我知道现在说产品有品味是一个有争议的说法。

But I do think in all the love of the frameworks and the analytics and everything else and in the field of product, I think people sometimes lose sight of, "It's a creative field." It's not art on its own.

但我确实认为，在对框架、分析以及其他一切以及产品领域的热爱中，我认为人们有时会忽视“这是一个创造性的领域”。它本身并不是艺术。

But you could get all the inspiration from art and I actually think there's a lot ...

但你可以从艺术中获得所有灵感，我实际上认为有很多......

there's a book, I think it's called Creative Selection, I forget the exact name of it, about some of the early iPhone development teams at Apple and working with Steve Jobs there.

有本书，我想它叫《Creative Selection》，我忘记了具体的名字，是关于苹果公司的一些早期 iPhone 开发团队以及与史蒂夫·乔布斯一起工作的。

Noah Weiss: I've never worked at Apple.

诺亚·韦斯：我从未在苹果工作过。

But I actually think it's the best book I've read about the just iterating creative work of building new products and what it means to have taste, which is to say you've developed some amount of intuition for what people will likely love before you're able to test it.

但我实际上认为这是我读过的关于构建新产品的迭代创造性工作以及品味意味着什么的最好的书，也就是说，在你能够测试它之前，你已经对人们可能喜欢的东西产生了一定的直觉。

Anyway, I think taste plus fluency and data, that too is a combination, is a pretty powerful combo.

不管怎样，我认为品味加上流畅性和数据，这也是一个组合，是一个非常强大的组合。

Lenny: Let me ask you just a couple questions about this list before we get to a very exciting lightning round and I can let you go.

莱尼：在我们进入非常激动人心的闪电回合之前，让我问你几个关于这个列表的问题，然后我就可以让你离开了。

Lenny: Of these 10 attributes, say you're a new product manager, if you had to pick two or three that you think are most important to get right and focus on in your early career, which would you say they would be?

Lenny：在这 10 个属性中，假设您是一名新产品经理，如果您必须选择两到三个您认为在职业生涯早期最需要正确掌握和关注的属性，您会选择哪一个？

Noah Weiss: I think for early on in your career, what I would say is getting great at execution.

诺亚·韦斯：我认为在你职业生涯的早期，我想说的是在执行力方面变得出色。

It's a thing that you can most control.

这是你最能控制的事情。

Then I think building that news for impact, even if the impact is more local, because that's how you actually will demonstrate momentum and build credibility and then actually do think early on getting really fluent on the data and the research side that you can have insights that you can read back to your team.

然后我认为构建具有影响力的新闻，即使影响更本地化，因为这就是你实际上展示动力和建立可信度的方式，然后实际上尽早考虑真正熟悉数据和研究方面，你可以获得可以读回给你的团队的见解。

Noah Weiss: Those are to me the most slammed up ways of becoming someone who starts to build credibility as a product manager in any organization.

诺亚·韦斯：对我来说，这些是成为任何组织中开始建立产品经理信誉的最受抨击的方法。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

That's what I always tell on new PMs too, is just get really good at execution because that creates that aura of, "Oh, this person's just killing it.

这也是我总是对新产品经理说的，就是要真正擅长执行，因为这会创造出一种光环，“哦，这个人简直就是在毁掉它。

They're just shipping on time.

他们只是准时发货。

People know it's happening.

人们知道它正在发生。

They're hitting dates," things like that.

他们正在约会”之类的事情。

Lenny: The last question is just say more of a senior product leader, say, on director.

Lenny：最后一个问题更多的是关于高级产品负责人，比如总监。

Are there three other attributes you think are ones they should focus on most or maybe the same?

您认为还有其他三个属性是他们最应该关注的或者可能是相同的吗？

Noah Weiss: Yeah.

诺亚·韦斯：是的。

I mean I think this is where the pace and quality decision making starts to matter a lot more because you're still unresponsible sometimes for teams of teams and you're helping to facilitate high quality decisions, often ones that have a lot of uncertainty or risk or ambiguity.

我的意思是，我认为这就是决策的速度和质量开始变得更加重要的地方，因为有时你仍然对团队不负责任，而你正在帮助促进高质量的决策，通常是那些有很多不确定性、风险或模糊性的决策。

How do you keep the organization unblocked, not just a team moving well.

如何保持组织畅通无阻，而不仅仅是团队运转良好。

Noah Weiss: I think the living in the future and working backwards, I think the more senior you get, it's always going to be the product founder who is responsible for the ultimate vision, but you become more responsible for that meeting a longer-term strategy to realize that vision.

诺亚·韦斯：我认为生活在未来并向后工作，我认为你的职位越高，负责最终愿景的总是产品创始人，但你对实现该愿景的长期战略负有更大的责任。

Becoming just someone who can dedicate more of your time to be out of the fray of the day-to-day and think more about the longer-term strategy that you want to pursue.

成为一个可以投入更多时间摆脱日常琐事并更多地思考自己想要追求的长期战略的人。

Noah Weiss: The last one, and we talked about just earlier, but I think being a really good writer, it is just the highest leverage usage of your time.

诺亚·韦斯：最后一个，我们之前谈到过，但我认为作为一名真正优秀的作家，这只是你时间中最高的杠杆使用率。

If you want to influence an organization at least for one that doesn't just spend all day in meetings, but I think it's really hard to dedicate the time to it because you're probably spending most of your day in meetings.

如果你想影响一个组织，至少是一个不只是整天开会的组织，但我认为花时间在这上面真的很难，因为你可能一天的大部分时间都花在会议上。

It's the antidote to that to scale your ability to influence the product direction and maybe even the principles and how you develop product at a company.

这是解决这个问题的解药，扩大你影响产品方向的能力，甚至影响公司开发产品的原则和方式。

Lenny: Well, with that, we've reached our very exciting lightning round.

莱尼：好了，我们已经进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。

I've got six questions for you.

我有六个问题要问你。

Are you ready?

你准备好了吗？

Lenny: What are two or three books that you've recommended most to other people?

莱尼：你向其他人推荐最多的两三本书是什么？

Noah Weiss: These may not be the most unique, but I will say them, which is Innovator's Dilemma by Clayton Christiansen, whether you're working a large company and you're suffering it or you're working a startup and you're trying to out flank an incumbent, I still do think that and innovative solution, the follow on are the best books on product strategy to read.

诺亚·韦斯（Noah Weiss）：这些可能不是最独特的，但我会说它们，这是克莱顿·克里斯蒂安森（Clayton Christiansen）的《创新者的困境》，无论你在一家大公司工作，你正在遭受苦难，还是你在一家初创公司工作，你试图从侧面击败现任者，我仍然认为，以及创新的解决方案，以下是有关产品策略的最佳书籍。

Noah Weiss: If you're moving into more of a leadership or management position, I think Radical Candor by Kim Scott is just incredible and worth everyone reading.

诺亚·韦斯（Noah Weiss）：如果您要担任更多的领导或管理职位，我认为金·斯科特（Kim Scott）的《激进坦诚》（Radical Candor）非常令人难以置信，值得每个人阅读。

Frankly, if you're a PM and you're doing soft influence, I think it's really important.

坦率地说，如果你是一名总理并且正在施加软影响，我认为这非常重要。

Then the third one, which is maybe a little off the beat of path, there's a book called Leadership in Turbulent Times by Doris Goodwin who's a presidential historian.

第三本书可能有点偏离常规，有一本名​​为《动荡时代的领导力》的书，作者是总统历史学家多丽丝·古德温 (Doris Goodwin)。

Noah Weiss: It's this amazing book that looks at four of the most notable presidents and how their leadership style evolved when they were in really critical hard times in their presidency.

诺亚·韦斯：这是一本令人惊叹的书，着眼于四位最著名的总统，以及他们在总统任期内处于真正关键困难时期时的领导风格如何演变。

I just think it's actually the best book about leadership style and how do you evolve and how do you deal with crises, which again is maybe later on in your career.

我只是认为这实际上是关于领导风格以及如何发展以及如何处理危机的最好的书，这可能又是在你职业生涯的后期。

But I love getting inspiration from not just reading books about tech and product and I think that's one of the best ones.

但我喜欢不仅仅从阅读有关技术和产品的书籍中获得灵感，我认为这是最好的书籍之一。

Lenny: What is a favorite recent movie or TV show you really enjoyed?

莱尼：你最近最喜欢的电影或电视节目是什么？

Noah Weiss: The obvious answer, which I'm sure many people would say would be Succession.

诺亚·韦斯：显而易见的答案是继承，我相信很多人都会说。

I'm not going to ruin anything for the finale because people haven't seen it all.

我不会毁掉结局的任何东西，因为人们还没有看到全部。

But the writing, the Shakespearean level drama of it all, it's just incredible and just heart wrenching that you wind up loathing most of the characters.

但写作，莎士比亚级别的戏剧，令人难以置信，令人心痛，你最终讨厌大多数角色。

But you can't take yourself out of it.

但你无法让自己摆脱困境。

Noah Weiss: The one that's maybe less common, and I watched right when we started paternity leave is The Bear, I don't know if you heard about it.

诺亚·韦斯：可能不太常见的一个，当我们开始休陪产假时我就观看了《熊》，我不知道你是否听说过它。

Noah Weiss: I'm a sucker for incredible cinematography, just what they do in basically the single room of this restaurant and kitchen and just the piece of it.

诺亚·韦斯：我着迷于令人难以置信的电影摄影，就像他们在这家餐厅和厨房的单间里所做的那样，只是其中的一部分。

I think it's just an incredible piece of art.

我认为这只是一件令人难以置信的艺术品。

I don't know if it's the best show ever, but it is a really moving, emotionally jarring piece of TV.

我不知道这是否是有史以来最好的节目，但它确实是一部感人至深、情感震撼的电视作品。

Lenny: Also, quite stressful to watch.

莱尼：而且，观看的时候压力很大。

Noah Weiss: Very sure.

诺亚·韦斯：非常肯定。

I would not relax to it to go to sleep.

我不会放松去睡觉。

Lenny: But Awesome.

莱尼：但是太棒了。

Okay.

好的。

Favorite interview question that you'd like to ask candidates?

您最想问候选人的面试问题是什么？

Noah Weiss: That would depend a lot, I think on obviously, the seniority level and things like that.

诺亚·韦斯（Noah Weiss）：我认为这在很大程度上取决于资历级别之类的因素。

But I think the more general, and I always love to ask people is what unfair secrets have you learned to improve the velocity and energy level of a product team?

但我认为更普遍的是，我总是喜欢问人们，你学到了哪些不公平的秘密来提高产品团队的速度和能量水平？

When I say unfair or you in secret, I usually mean not something that you probably read on a medium input.

当我说不公平或你秘密时，我通常指的不是你可能在媒体输入上读到的东西。

But what did you learn?

但你学到了什么？

How did you learn it and how does it work and how do you apply it?

您是如何学习它的、它是如何运作的以及如何应用它？

You also just get amazing interesting bits of inspiration from asking that.

你也可以从这个问题中得到一些令人惊奇的有趣的灵感。

Lenny: What is a favorite product you've recently discovered that you love?

莱尼：您最近发现的最喜欢的产品是什么？

Noah Weiss: This will also serve for recommendations for you based on or you've not thread about parenting clients because none of the products I've learned or loved recently have been software.

Noah Weiss：这也将为您提供基于或您没有讨论过的有关育儿客户的建议，因为我最近学习或喜欢的产品都不是软件。

But they're all maybe software enabled.

但它们可能都是由软件支持的。

The Nanit, which is a weird name, but it's this AI-enabled camera for basically watching your day as they sleep.

Nanit，这是一个奇怪的名字，但它是一款支持人工智能的摄像头，基本上可以在你睡觉时监视你的一天。

It's like incredible, look, because you sleep analytics and really helps you be a less neurotic parent.

这简直令人难以置信，你看，因为你的睡眠分析确实可以帮助你成为一个不那么神经质的父母。

I would highly recommend it.

我强烈推荐它。

Noah Weiss: The SNOO, which is basically this amazing device that can help soothe your kid when all they need is a little bit of that soothing while they sleep so that you can sleep a little bit more.

Noah Weiss：SNOO 基本上是一种神奇的设备，当您的孩子需要的只是在睡觉时得到一点安慰，这样您就可以多睡一会儿时，它可以帮助安抚您的孩子。

You can tell the steam here is sleep.

你可以看出这里的蒸汽是睡眠。

The last one is there's this chemical up baby that has this whole elaborate stroller system with interchangeable parts and, honestly, it's just an incredibly well-designed piece of hardware that works in and out of the car.

最后一个是这个化学婴儿车，它有一个完整的精致婴儿车系统，带有可互换的零件，老实说，它只是一个设计得非常好的硬件，可以在车内和车外工作。

Noah Weiss: Yeah.

诺亚·韦斯：是的。

I think I've re-appreciated really well-designed hard products that are not necessarily hardware from Apple and that has been what baby new parents is about.

我想我已经重新欣赏了设计精良的硬件产品，这些产品不一定是苹果公司的硬件，而这正是新父母的意义所在。

Lenny: I have all three.

莱尼：三个我都有。

Also, a huge shout-out to the Nanit team who sent me a Nanit and all the stuff around the Nanit.

另外，还要向 Nanit 团队致以深深的谢意，他们给我发送了一个 Nanit 以及与 Nanit 相关的所有东西。

Thank you.

谢谢。

I'm not going to name the specific PM who sent it to me, because I don't remember his name off the top of my head, but thank you, Nanit.

我不会说出发送给我的具体 PM 的名字，因为我记不起他的名字，但是谢谢你，Nanit。

Noah Weiss: Yeah.

诺亚·韦斯：是的。

It turned out there was a whole world of baby tech, which I had no idea.

事实证明，婴儿科技的世界非常广阔，而我对此一无所知。

I mean, it makes sense that existed, but you never know about until you're a parent.

我的意思是，它的存在是有道理的，但直到你成为父母之前你永远不会知道。

Now, I'm obsessed.

现在，我着迷了。

Lenny: One tip that for Nanit, my wife and I have been playing with different names for our kid and we have been changing his name in the Nanit so that anytime we go into the room it sends us a push, "Hey, there's activity in the room with the names so that we could feel the different names."

莱尼：对于纳尼特（Nanit）来说，我和我的妻子一直在为我们的孩子起不同的名字，我们一直在改变他在纳尼特（Nanit）中的名字，这样每当我们进入房间时，它都会向我们推送一个信息，“嘿，房间里有这些名字的活动，这样我们就能感受到不同的名字。”

Noah Weiss: I love that.

诺亚·韦斯：我喜欢这个。

Yeah.

是的。

My wife and I did something similar where we had three or four final name contenders and we didn't use the Nanit for.

我和我的妻子做了类似的事情，我们有三四个最终名字的竞争者，但我们没有使用 Nanit。

But we literal just picked a week and said, "On Monday we're going to like refer to the future baby by that name for the entire week and give some personification to it." That helped us get down from four to one.

但我们实际上只是选择了一周并说：“周一我们将在整个星期内用这个名字来指代未来的婴儿，并给它一些拟人化。”这帮助我们从四人减少到一人。

Yeah.

是的。

Lenny: What a wide-ranging set of pieces of advice we got on this podcast.

莱尼：我们在这个播客中得到了非常广泛的建议。

Two more questions.

还有两个问题。

What is something relatively minor you've changed in how you develop product at Slack that has had a lot of impact on your ability to execute?

您在 Slack 开发产品的方式上做了哪些相对较小的改变，但对您的执行能力产生了很大影响？

Noah Weiss: By far, the biggest thing, which is more of a cultural shift is that we stopped spending so many cycles on design explorations of static mocks or walkthroughs and said, "How quickly can we get into prototyping the path in real software, even if it's messy and you throw it away," at least for something like Slack.

Noah Weiss：到目前为止，最重要的事情，更多的是一种文化转变，是我们不再花太多的时间在静态模拟或演练的设计探索上，而是说，“我们能多快地在真实软件中进行原型设计，即使它很混乱，你可以把它扔掉”，至少对于像 Slack 这样的东西来说。

You got to live and touch and smell the software.

你必须生活、触摸并闻到软件的味道。

You can't just look at it.

你不能只看它。

That's been a huge unlock for avoiding spending months on design debates and just getting to, well, how does the software feel?

这是一个巨大的解锁，可以避免花费数月时间进行设计辩论，而只是了解软件的感觉如何？

That's what matters.

这才是重要的。

Lenny: Speaking of Slack, final question, what is your favorite Slack pro tip that people may not be aware of?

Lenny：说到 Slack，最后一个问题是，您最喜欢但人们可能不知道的 Slack 专业技巧是什么？

Noah Weiss: I'm going to give two because if someone asks me this, "I'm like, these are the two things that if you're not in love with Slack, you'll fall in love with Slack." The first is obviously you have a sidebar, it can be unruly, but you can customize the sidebar into sections and each of those sections you can have settings like.

Noah Weiss：我会给两个，因为如果有人问我这个问题，“我想，这两件事是如果你不爱 Slack，你也会爱上 Slack。”第一个显然是你有一个侧边栏，它可能不守规矩，但你可以将侧边栏自定义为多个部分，并且每个部分都可以进行类似的设置。

"Show unread only" or "Sort by recency," or "Sort by alphabetical," whatever it might be.

“仅显示未读”或“按新近度排序”或“按字母顺序排序”，无论是什么。

You can collapse the section so you don't see it all at once.

您可以折叠该部分，这样您就不会一次看到全部内容。

Noah Weiss: I think having a well-managed sidebar, which doesn't actually take that long, it's like this amazing thing because then all this inbound is structured in an order and a grouping that fits how you want to view your working life.

诺亚·韦斯（Noah Weiss）：我认为拥有一个管理良好的侧边栏，实际上并不需要那么长的时间，这就像一件令人惊奇的事情，因为所有这些入站都是按顺序和分组构建的，适合您如何看待您的工作生活。

Customizing the sidebar.

自定义侧边栏。

The second thing is just use the quick switcher for everything.

第二件事是使用快速切换器来完成所有事情。

Just hit Apple K and just start typing and it feels like they're playing a video game, just hopping around channels, people, files, search.

只需按下 Apple K 并开始打字，感觉就像他们在玩视频游戏一样，只是在频道、人员、文件、搜索之间跳来跳去。

Pretty much all the actions you can take are on as well.

几乎所有你可以采取的行动也都在进行。

Noah Weiss: I think most SaaS products now have borrowed that pattern.

Noah Weiss：我认为现在大多数 SaaS 产品都借鉴了这种模式。

You can use another software, but it works particularly well in Slack.

您可以使用其他软件，但它在 Slack 中效果特别好。

Lenny: No. I know the last thing you needed was to record a podcast your first week back to work.

莱尼：不。我知道你最不需要的就是在重返工作岗位的第一周录制播客。

I so appreciate you making the time.

我非常感谢您抽出时间。

It feels like we're two ships passing in the night from pat leave and to new pat leave.

感觉就像我们是两艘船，在夜间从帕特离开和新的帕特离开驶过。

Two final questions.

最后两个问题。

Where can folks find you online if they want to reach out and learn more and how can listeners be useful to you?

如果人们想联系并了解更多信息，可以在哪里找到您？听众如何对您有用？

Noah Weiss: I will confess that I haven't used Twitter in months because I was doing digital detox, but still I think @Noah_Weiss is a pretty good place to find me online and whether there or anywhere else, still love to have peoples like Slack feature requests, especially about things that you wish were possible or that would get the rest of your company to join on Slack because you love it, but you can't convince them.

Noah Weiss：我承认，我已经好几个月没有使用 Twitter 了，因为我正在进行数字排毒，但我仍然认为 @Noah_Weiss 是一个在网上找到我的好地方，无论是在那里还是在其他地方，仍然喜欢人们像 Slack 那样提出功能请求，尤其是那些你希望可能实现的事情，或者会让你公司的其他人加入 Slack 的事情，因为你喜欢它，但你无法说服他们。

Those are always golden nuggets.

这些总是金块。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

Noah, thank you so much for being here.

诺亚，非常感谢你来到这里。

Noah Weiss: Thank you so much for having me.

诺亚·韦斯：非常感谢您邀请我。

Lenny: Bye everyone.

莱尼：大家再见。

Thank you so much for listening.

非常感谢您的聆听。

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如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.

您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。