Strategies for becoming less distractible and improving focus | Nir Eyal

Nir Eyal: I went to Alibaba and I bought myself one of these flip phones from China like we used to have in the 1990s with no apps, no internet connection.

Nir Eyal：我去了阿里巴巴，从中国给自己买了一部翻盖手机，就像我们在 20 世纪 90 年代那样，没有应用程序，没有互联网连接。

And then I got myself a word processor off of eBay so that I could just sit down and write and do the important stuff.

然后我从 eBay 上给自己买了一个文字处理器，这样我就可以坐下来写作并做重要的事情。

And even when I stopped using all the technology, even when I got rid of all the apps, I would sit down on my desk and I'd say, "Oh, you know what?

即使我停止使用所有技术，即使我摆脱了所有应用程序，我也会坐在办公桌上说：“哦，你知道吗？

There's that book that I've been meaning what to do some research in," or, "Let me just clean off my desk real quick," or, "You know what?

我一直在想对那本书做一些研究，”或者，“让我快速清理一下我的桌子，”或者，“你知道吗？

I should take out the trash." And I kept getting distracted because the problem is not our technology.

我应该把垃圾倒掉。”我一直心烦意乱，因为问题不在于我们的技术。

The problem is our inability to deal with discomfort.

问题是我们无法应对不适。

So, what I have adopted for myself and what I'd advise anyone who finds themselves in this situation is to always identify what is that internal trigger, what is that itch that you are looking to escape when you get distracted, because that is the source of 90% of our distractions.

因此，我对自己采取的措施以及我建议任何发现自己处于这种情况的人的建议是，始终确定内在触发因素是什么，当你分心时你想要逃避的渴望是什么，因为这是我们 90% 分心的根源。

Nir Eyal: It's not the pings, dings, and rings.

Nir Eyal：这不是砰、叮、响的声音。

It's the feelings.

这就是感情。

But to me, that's incredibly empowering because once you realize, "Wait a minute, it's just a feeling." It's all it is, it's just an emotion.

但对我来说，这是令人难以置信的力量，因为一旦你意识到，“等一下，这只是一种感觉。”一切都是如此，这只是一种情感。

Then you can have tools ready to go.

然后您就可以准备好工具了。

You can have arrows in your quiver ready to take out as soon as you feel that discomfort.

你可以在箭袋里备好箭，一旦感到不舒服就可以取出来。

Lenny: Today, my guest is Nir Eyal.

莱尼：今天，我的客人是尼尔·埃亚尔。

Nir is the author of two bestselling books, Hooked: How to Build Habit-Forming Products and Indistractable: How to Control Your Attention and Choose Your Life.

尼尔是两本畅销书的作者，《上瘾：如何打造习惯形成产品》和《难以分心：如何控制你的注意力并选择你的生活》。

Nir spends his time teaching and consulting at the intersection of psychology, technology, and business.

Nir 的大部分时间都花在心理学、技术和商业交叉领域的教学和咨询上。

His books have sold over 1 million copies in over 30 languages.

他的书籍已以 30 多种语言售出超过 100 万册。

In our conversation, we get very tactical about how to become less distractable and how to get better at focusing on doing the work that you know need to do.

在我们的谈话中，我们非常有策略地讨论如何减少分心，以及如何更好地专注于做你知道需要做的工作。

Nir shares at least a dozen tools and tricks that you can put into place today to help you stay focused and avoid getting distracted.

Nir 分享了至少十几种工具和技巧，您今天就可以使用它们来帮助您保持专注并避免分心。

After this conversation, I've already implemented some of these tactics and they're actually working.

在这次谈话之后，我已经实施了其中一些策略，并且它们实际上正在发挥作用。

If you find these helpful or you want to go deeper, definitely check out Nir's book Indistractable.

如果你发现这些有帮助或者你想更深入地了解，一定要看看 Nir ​​的书 Indistractable。

With that, here is Nir Eyal after a short word from our sponsors.

以下是尼尔·埃亚尔 (Nir Eyal) 的赞助商简短致辞后的讲话。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Vanta, helping you streamline your security compliance to accelerate your growth.

Lenny：本集由 Vanta 为您带来，可帮助您简化安全合规性以加速您的成长。

Thousands of fast-growing companies like Gusto, Comm, Quora, and Modern Treasury, trust Vanta to help build, scale, manage, and demonstrate their security and compliance programs and get ready for audits in weeks, not months by offering the most in-demand security and privacy frameworks such as SOC 2, ISO 27001, GDPR, HIPAA, and many more.

Gusto、Comm、Quora 和 Modern Treasury 等数千家快速发展的公司信赖 Vanta 来帮助构建、扩展、管理和演示其安全与合规计划，并通过提供最受欢迎的安全和隐私框架（例如 SOC 2、ISO 27001、GDPR、HIPAA 等），在数周（而不是数月）内为审核做好准备。

Vanta helps companies obtain the reports they need to accelerate growth, build efficient compliance processes, mitigate risks to their businesses, and build trust with external stakeholders.

Vanta 帮助公司获取加速增长、建立高效合规流程、降低业务风险以及与外部利益相关者建立信任所需的报告。

Over 5,000 fast-growing companies use Vanta to automate up to 90% of the work involved with SOC 2 and these other frameworks.

超过 5,000 家快速发展的公司使用 Vanta 自动化 SOC 2 和其他框架所涉及的高达 90% 的工作。

For a limited time, Lenny's podcast listeners get $1,000 off Vanta.

在有限的时间内，Lenny 的播客听众可享受 Vanta 1,000 美元优惠。

Go to vanta.com/lenny.

访问vanta.com/lenny。

That's vanta.com/lenny to learn more and to claim your discounts.

要了解更多信息并申请折扣，请访问vanta.com/lenny。

Get started today.

今天就开始吧。

Lenny: You fell in love with building products for a reason, but sometimes, the day-to-day reality is a little different than you imagined.

Lenny：你爱上构建产品是有原因的，但有时，日常现实与你想象的有点不同。

Instead of dreaming up big ideas, talking to customers, and crafting a strategy, you're drowning in spreadsheets and roadmap updates and you're spending your days basically putting out fires.

您没有提出伟大的想法、与客户交谈并制定策略，而是淹没在电子表格和路线图更新中，并且每天都在忙着救火。

A better way is possible.

更好的方法是可能的。

Introducing Jira Product Discovery, the new prioritization and roadmapping tool built for product teams by Atlassian.

隆重推出 Jira Product Discovery，这是 Atlassian 为产品团队构建的新优先级划分和路线图工具。

With Jira Product Discovery, you can gather all your product ideas and insights in one place and prioritize confidently, finally replacing those endless spreadsheets.

借助 Jira Product Discovery，您可以将所有产品创意和见解收集到一处，并自信地确定优先顺序，最终取代那些无休无止的电子表格。

Lenny: Create and share custom product roadmaps with any stakeholder in seconds, and it's all built on Jira, where your engineering team's already working, so true collaboration is finally possible.

Lenny：在几秒钟内创建并与任何利益相关者共享自定义产品路线图，这一切都建立在 Jira 上，您的工程团队已经在 J​​ira 上工作，因此真正的协作终于成为可能。

Great products are built by great teams, not just engineers, sales, support, leadership, even Greg from finance.

伟大的产品是由伟大的团队打造的，不仅仅是工程师、销售、支持、领导层，甚至是来自财务部门的格雷格。

Anyone that you want can contribute ideas, feedback, and insights in Jira Product Discovery for free.

您想要的任何人都可以在 Jira Product Discovery 中免费贡献想法、反馈和见解。

No catch and it's only $10 a month for you.

没问题，每月只需 10 美元。

Say goodbye to your spreadsheets and the never-ending alignment efforts.

告别电子表格和无休止的对齐工作。

The old way of doing product management is over.

旧的产品管理方式已经结束。

Rediscover what's possible with Jira Product Discovery.

重新发现 Jira Product Discovery 的可能性。

Try for free at atlassian.com/lenny.

请访问 atlassian.com/lenny 免费试用。

That's atlassian.com/lenny.

这是 atlassian.com/lenny。

Lenny: Nir, thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast.

Lenny：Nir，非常感谢您来到这里，欢迎来到播客。

Nir Eyal: Thanks so much, Lenny.

Nir Eyal：非常感谢，莱尼。

Great to be here.

很高兴来到这里。

Lenny: I feel like we have a chance to record the most valuable hour in podcast history because it could give people more time to do the things they want to do.

莱尼：我觉得我们有机会记录播客历史上最有价值的一小时，因为它可以让人们有更多时间做他们想做的事情。

And this is based on a book that you wrote.

这是基于你写的一本书。

It's called Indistractable, which is all about helping people become less distracted, become better at focus, and it might be the most essential skill in the workplace today.

它被称为“Indistractable”，旨在帮助人们减少分心，变得更加专注，这可能是当今工作场所中最重要的技能。

And so, what I'm hoping to do today in our chat is just basically give people as many tactical skills and pieces of advice and tools to become less distractable and to get better at focus.

因此，我今天希望在我们的聊天中做的基本上就是为人们提供尽可能多的战术技能、建议和工具，以减少分心并更好地集中注意力。

How does that sound?

听起来怎么样？

Nir Eyal: That sounds great.

Nir Eyal：听起来很棒。

I love that you're setting the expectations high.

我喜欢你的期望很高。

I'll try and meet them.

我会尝试去见见他们。

Lenny: Well now, we got to hit them.

莱尼：现在，我们必须打击他们。

Okay, so here's the question.

好的，这就是问题所在。

I'll just start really broad and let's just see where this goes.

我将从非常广泛的角度开始，让我们看看会发生什么。

My question is just how does one become less distractable, slash how do I become less distractable?

我的问题是如何才能变得不那么分心，那么我该如何变得不那么分心呢？

Nir Eyal: Okay, so there's a deeper motivation here.

Nir Eyal：好的，这里有更深层次的动机。

It's like, "I need help," which is great.

就像“我需要帮助”，这很棒。

That's my favorite thing to do, is to actually get concrete with people about what their specific challenges are.

这是我最喜欢做的事情，就是与人们具体了解他们面临的具体挑战是什么。

But let me back up here.

但让我回到这里。

So, this is what I spent five years writing a book about, because why did it take me five years to write a book?

所以，这就是我花了五年时间写一本书的内容，因为为什么我花了五年时间写一本书？

Because I was so distracted.

因为我太心烦意乱了。

So, I wrote this book for me more than anyone else.

所以，我写这本书比任何人都更适合我自己。

That's the only reason I write books.

这是我写书的唯一原因。

It's not because of what I know, but because of what I want to know.

这不是因为我知道什么，而是因为我想知道什么。

And I discovered that there were so many myths and tropes and just flat out harmful things that I was doing to hurt my own productivity.

我发现有太多的神话和比喻，并且只是简单地揭露我所做的有害的事情，以损害我自己的生产力。

And when I really went down to first principles and looked at the research, I found that there were so many things that I was doing wrong.

当我真正遵循第一原则并查看研究时，我发现我做错了很多事情。

Nir Eyal: But since I've changed my ways and adopted what the research literature says about distraction, it's improved my life in inconceivable ways.

Nir Eyal：但是自从我改变了自己的方式并采用了研究文献中关于分心的说法后，它以不可思议的方式改善了我的生活。

I'm in the best shape of my life at 45 years old.

45岁时，我正处于一生中最好的状态。

I have a better relationship with my family than ever.

我和家人的关系比以往任何时候都更好。

I'm more productive at work than ever before, not because I didn't know what to do.

我的工作效率比以往任何时候都高，并不是因为我不知道该做什么。

That's what I find is really emblematic of people today is not that we don't know what to do.

我发现这才是当今人们真正的象征，并不是我们不知道该做什么。

It used to be maybe, okay, our grandparents, they didn't know what to do because the information was scarce.

过去也许是，好吧，我们的祖父母，他们不知道该怎么做，因为信息稀缺。

They had to go to the library and look things up.

他们必须去图书馆查资料。

Well, today, with the internet, we all basically know what to do.

嗯，今天，有了互联网，我们基本上都知道该怎么做了。

And if you don't know what to do, Google it.

如果你不知道该怎么做，谷歌一下。

You can find the answer out there.

你可以在那里找到答案。

But we all basically know common-sense stuff like if you want to get in shape, you have to exercise and eat right, okay?

但我们基本上都知道一些常识，比如如果你想保持身材，就必须锻炼和正确饮食，好吗？

Nir Eyal: You don't need a diet book to tell you that.

Nir Eyal：你不需要饮食书来告诉你这一点。

If you want to have better relationships with your family, you have to be fully present with people.

如果你想与家人建立更好的关系，你必须充分与人相处。

If you want to do better at work, you have to do the hard work that other people don't want to do.

如果你想在工作中做得更好，你就必须做别人不愿意做的艰苦工作。

We already know these things.

我们已经知道这些事情了。

What we don't know is how to get out of our own way, how to stop getting distracted.

我们不知道的是如何摆脱自己的束缚，如何停止分心。

And so, that was certainly my problem.

所以，这肯定是我的问题。

And so, what I wanted to do was really dive into the problem because the conventional solutions didn't work for me.

因此，我想做的是真正深入研究这个问题，因为传统的解决方案对我不起作用。

When I have a problem in my life, I'll think about it, I'll write about it, I'll talk to friends, I'll talk to my wife about it.

当我生活中遇到问题时，我会思考它，我会写下来，我会和朋友谈论它，我会和我的妻子谈论它。

If I still can't figure it out, I'll read books about it.

如果我还是不明白，我会看相关书籍。

And what the conventional wisdom out there written by a lot of college professors that are all tenured is stop using technology, stop checking email, get off social media.

许多终身教授所写的传统智慧是停止使用技术、停止检查电子邮件、远离社交媒体。

It's melting your brain, but that's not very helpful, right?

它正在融化你的大脑，但这没什么帮助，对吧？

Nir Eyal: Maybe if you have tenure, that's okay, but I can't stop using technology.

Nir Eyal：也许如果你有终身教职，那也没关系，但我无法停止使用技术。

My career will plummet.

我的事业将会一落千丈。

I have to use these tools.

我必须使用这些工具。

So, I wanted much more practical advice, and what I discovered was that the root cause of distraction is much more interesting and the solution is far more empowering than stop using technology, technology's evil, it's melting your brain.

所以，我想要更实用的建议，我发现分心的根本原因更有趣，解决方案比停止使用技术更有效，技术是邪恶的，它正在融化你的大脑。

So, where do we begin?

那么，我们从哪里开始呢？

Maybe the best place to start is by first, before we dive into the tactics around how do we become indistractable, the first place to start is what is distraction?

也许最好的起点是首先，在我们深入研究如何变得不分心的策略之前，第一个开始的地方是什么是分心？

Understanding the term really, really matters.

理解这个词真的非常重要。

And the best way to understand what distraction is, is to understand what distraction is not.

理解什么是分心的最好方法就是了解什么不是分心。

What's the opposite of distraction?

分心的反面是什么？

So, if you ask most people, what's the opposite of distraction?

所以，如果你问大多数人，分心的反义词是什么？

Nir Eyal: They'll tell you focus, right?

Nir Eyal：他们会告诉你焦点，对吧？

I don't want to be distracted, I want to be focused.

我不想分心，我想集中注意力。

That's not exactly right.

这并不完全正确。

Then in fact, the opposite of distraction is not focus.

那么其实分心的反义词就是不专注。

The opposite of distraction is traction.

分心的反面是牵引力。

Becomes pretty easy when you look at both words, traction, distraction.

当你看到“牵引”、“分心”这两个词时，就变得很容易了。

They're opposites because both words come from the same Latin root, trahare, which means to pull, and they both end in the same six letters, A-C-T-I-O-N that spells action, reminding us that distraction is not something that happens to us.

它们是对立的，因为这两个词都来自同一个拉丁语词根 trahare，意思是“拉”，并且它们都以相同的六个字母结尾，A-C-T-I-O-N 表示“行动”，提醒我们分心不是发生在我们身上的事情。

It is an action that we ourselves take.

这是我们自己采取的行动。

So, traction, by definition, is any action that pulls you towards what you say you were going to do, things you do with intent, things that move you closer to your values, and help you become the kind of person you want to become.

因此，根据定义，牵引力是指任何能够拉动你去做你说过要做的事情、你有意去做的事情、让你更接近你的价值观并帮助你成为你想成为的人的事情。

Those are acts of traction.

这些都是牵引行为。

Now, the opposite of traction, distraction, is any action that pulls you away from what you plan to do, further away from your goals, further away from becoming the kind of person you want to become.

现在，牵引力的反义词是分心，它是任何让你远离你计划做的事情、远离你的目标、远离你想成为的人的行为。

Nir Eyal: And what separates traction from distraction is one word, and that one word is intent.

Nir Eyal：区分牵引力和分心的是一个词，这个词就是意图。

I love this Dorothy Parker.

我喜欢这个多萝西·帕克。

She said, "The time you plan to waste is not wasted time." So, I think we need to stop medicalizing and moralizing what people do with their time.

她说：“你打算浪费的时间就不是浪费的时间。”因此，我认为我们需要停止对人们利用时间所做的事情进行医学化和道德化。

Why is it that someone going on Reddit or on social media or watching a YouTube video that's somehow morally inferior to watching a football game on TV?

为什么有人上 Reddit、社交媒体或观看 YouTube 视频在道德上不如在电视上观看足球比赛？

It's not.

它不是。

Anything you want to do with your time and attention is fine as long as it's done with intent, as long as you're doing it on your schedule, and not someone else's, certainly not the tech company's schedule.

任何你想花时间和精力做的事情都可以，只要是有目的的，只要你按照自己的日程安排去做，而不是别人的日程安排，当然也不是科技公司的日程安排。

So, anything you do with intent is traction, anything else is distraction.

所以，任何你有意图地做的事情都是牵引力，任何其他的事情都是分心的。

So, what I discovered, for me, was that I was getting tricked by distraction in that the most pernicious form of distraction I discovered was the kind I didn't even realize was distracting me.

所以，对我来说，我发现我被分心所欺骗，因为我发现最有害的分心形式是我什至没有意识到的那种分心。

Nir Eyal: So, let me know if this sounds familiar to you, Lenny.

Nir Eyal：所以，如果你觉得这听起来很熟悉，请告诉我，莱尼。

I would sit down at my desk.

我会坐在办公桌前。

I would look at my to-do list.

我会查看我的待办事项清单。

By the way, we can talk about why to-do lists are one of the worst things you can do for your personal productivity.

顺便说一句，我们可以谈谈为什么待办事项列表是你可以为你的个人生产力做的最糟糕的事情之一。

We can get back to that later.

我们可以稍后再回来讨论这个问题。

But I would sit down at my desk and I'd say, "Okay, I've got that big important project.

但我会坐在办公桌前说：“好吧，我有一个重要的大项目。

That's what I'm going to do this morning.

这就是我今天早上要做的事情。

I'm not going to get distracted, nothing's going to get in my way.

我不会分心，没有任何事情会妨碍我。

Here I go, I'm going to get started, but first let me check some email."

开始了，我要开始了，但首先让我检查一些电子邮件。”

Lenny: Are you watching me because this happens to me every morning.

莱尼：你在看着我吗，因为这种事每天早上都会发生在我身上。

You got to stop.

你必须停下来。

Nir Eyal: This is totally autobiographical.

Nir Eyal：这完全是自传体。

This is what I used to do all the...

这就是我以前所做的一切...

"Oh, let me just scroll that Slack channel.

“哦，让我滚动一下 Slack 频道。

What's everybody at the office doing?

办公室里的每个人都在做什么？

Oh, let me just catch up on industry news." That's important.

哦，让我了解一下行业新闻。”这很重要。

That's part of my job.

这是我工作的一部分。

I'm being productive, right?

我很有生产力，对吗？

And what I didn't realize is that distraction was tricking me into prioritizing the urgent and the easy stuff at the expense of the hard and important work I had to do to move my life and career forward.

我没有意识到的是，分心让我优先考虑紧急和容易的事情，而牺牲了我必须做的艰苦而重要的工作，以推动我的生活和事业向前发展。

So, just because it's a work-related task, doesn't mean it's not a distraction.

因此，仅仅因为这是一项与工作相关的任务，并不意味着它不会分散注意力。

In fact, that's the worst kind of distraction.

事实上，这是最糟糕的干扰。

Far worse than playing Candy Crush or whatever because then you're putzing around, then at least it's obvious that you're distracted.

比玩《糖果粉碎传奇》或其他什么游戏更糟糕，因为那样你就在闲逛，那么至少很明显你分心了。

But if you're just checking work email, you feel productive even though that's a distraction because it's not what you said you want to do with your time and attention.

但如果你只是检查工作电子邮件，你会感到很有成效，尽管这会分散你的注意力，因为这不是你所说的你想要花时间和注意力去做的事情。

So now, we have this framework.

现在，我们有了这个框架。

We have traction, we have distraction.

我们有牵引力，我们有分心。

Nir Eyal: Now, there's one more thing that's super important, then we'll have the entire picture so that we can stop thinking about the model and actually get to a brass tacks of what do we actually do.

Nir Eyal：现在，还有一件非常重要的事情，然后我们将了解整个情况，这样我们就可以停止思考模型，并真正了解我们实际做什么的实质内容。

Now that we have traction distraction the other thing we have to consider are triggers.

现在我们已经有了牵引力分心，我们必须考虑的另一件事是触发因素。

We have two kinds of triggers.

我们有两种触发器。

We have external triggers.

我们有外部触发因素。

These are things in our outside environment, the usual suspects, the pings, the dings, the rings, all this stuff in our outside environment, which we tend to blame for distraction, but studies find, that's only 10% of the reason we get distracted, 10% of the time it's because of something outside of us.

这些是我们外部环境中常见的东西，比如叮当声、叮当声、铃声，以及我们外部环境中的所有这些东西，我们往往将其归咎于分心，但研究发现，这只是我们分心的 10% 原因，10% 的时间是因为我们之外的事物。

What's the other 90%?

另外90%是什么呢？

Turns out 90% of the time that we get distracted, it's not because of what's happening outside of us, but that most distraction begins from within boredom, loneliness, fatigue, uncertainty, anxiety.

事实证明，90% 的时候，我们分心的时候，并不是因为外界发生的事情，而是大多数分心源于无聊、孤独、疲劳、不确定、焦虑。

That is the cause of 90% of our distractions.

这是我们 90% 分心的原因。

So, whether it's too much news, too much booze, too much football, too much Facebook, you are always going to get distracted from one thing or another unless you understand the root cause of the problem.

所以，无论是太多的新闻、太多的酒、太多的足球、太多的 Facebook，你总是会因为一件事或另一件事而分心，除非你了解问题的根本原因。

Nir Eyal: So, step number one to becoming indistractable is to master those internal triggers or they will become your master.

Nir Eyal：所以，要变得不分心，第一步就是掌握这些内部触发因素，否则它们就会成为你的主人。

Now, we're working around those four points.

现在，我们正在围绕这四点开展工作。

Step number two, make time for traction.

第二步，腾出时间进行牵引。

We can talk about that.

我们可以谈谈这个。

Hack back the external triggers and step number four, prevent distraction with pacts.

破解外部触发器和第四步，通过契约防止分心。

So, you asked a big question, I gave you a big answer.

所以，你问了一个大问题，我给了你一个大答案。

That's the overall framework.

这就是整体框架。

That's a strategy.

这是一个策略。

Tactics are what you do.

战术就是你所做的事情。

Strategy is why you do it.

战略就是你这样做的原因。

So, I wanted to explain the strategy before we got into the tactics.

因此，我想在讨论战术之前先解释一下策略。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

I love this word traction because it relates to kind of the other side of this podcast of growth, product market fit, building products people want, getting traction with users.

我喜欢“牵引力”这个词，因为它涉及到这个播客的另一面：增长、产品市场契合度、打造人们想要的产品、吸引用户。

So, I really like that there's this additional way of thinking about traction, which is basically not being distracted.

所以，我真的很喜欢这种关于牵引力的额外思考方式，基本上不会被分散注意力。

Can you just repeat the four steps again for people to have this in mind?

您能否再次重复这四个步骤，让人们记住这一点？

Nir Eyal: Step number one, master internal triggers.

Nir Eyal：第一步，掌握内部触发因素。

Step number two, make time for traction.

第二步，腾出时间进行牵引。

So, this is where we're turning our values into time.

所以，这就是我们将价值观转化为时间的地方。

We can talk about how to do that.

我们可以讨论如何做到这一点。

Step number three is hack back the external triggers.

第三步是破解外部触发器。

This is where we get into the pings, dings, and rings, not just the obvious stuff like your phone, your computer.

这就是我们了解“叮”、“叮”和“响”的地方，而不仅仅是手机、电脑等显而易见的东西。

I take about a page and a half to talk about that.

我花了大约一页半的篇幅来谈论这个问题。

That's kind of kindergarten stuff.

那是幼儿园的事情。

But what about all the non-obvious external triggers?

但是所有不明显的外部触发因素又如何呢？

What about stupid meetings that didn't need to be called?

那些不需要召开的愚蠢会议又如何呢？

What about emails that didn't need to be sent and received?

那些不需要发送和接收的电子邮件怎么办？

What about our kids?

我们的孩子呢？

Our kids are wonderful.

我们的孩子很棒。

I know you're a new dad, they're fantastic to have kids, but they can also be a source of distraction.

我知道你是个新爸爸，他们很高兴有孩子，但他们也可能会让人分心。

So, how do we deal with all those external triggers, and then finally prevent distraction with pacts and pacts are this firewall, this last resort against distraction that we can use to keep distraction at bay and it's really about these four steps in concert in this order that anyone can use to become indistractable.

那么，我们如何处理所有这些外部触发因素，然后最终通过契约来防止分心，契约就是防火墙，这是防止分心的最后手段，我们可以用它来阻止分心，这实际上是按顺序协调一致的这四个步骤，任何人都可以使用它来变得不分心。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

Does this spell something clever, by the way?

顺便问一下，这是否意味着一些聪明的事情？

Nir Eyal: No, I didn't have an acronym, but I do have a pretty picture.

Nir Eyal：不，我没有缩写词，但我确实有一张漂亮的图片。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

So, let's go through this and I'd love specifically example you shared, I think many people run into this.

所以，让我们来看看这个，我很喜欢你分享的具体例子，我想很多人都会遇到这个问题。

There's a hard thing I need to do and I'm just going to go check my email and Twitter instead.

我需要做一件困难的事情，我只想去查看我的电子邮件和 Twitter。

I feel like that's a very common distraction, and so sharing, getting into that at some point would be awesome, but otherwise let's get into these four steps.

我觉得这是一种非常常见的干扰，所以分享，在某个时候进入这一点会很棒，但除此之外，让我们进入这四个步骤。

Nir Eyal: Yeah, well, we can absolutely do that.

Nir Eyal：是的，我们绝对可以做到。

So, is that something you encounter?

那么，这是你遇到的事情吗？

It sounds like a...

听起来像是一个...

Lenny: 100%.

莱尼：100%。

Every time.

每次。

I have my to-do list, work on next week's post, and then I'm like, "Oh, let me just go check Twitter or maybe tweet something and that'll be fun," and then totally check my email.

我有我的待办事项清单，正在处理下周的帖子，然后我想，“哦，让我去查看 Twitter 或者发布一些推文，这会很有趣，”然后完全检查我的电子邮件。

"Oh, inbox zero.

“哦，收件箱为零。

Let's get all the way to zero.

让我们一路归零吧。

Oh, that's cool.

哦，那太酷了。

Okay, now the days are over."

好吧，现在日子已经过去了。”

Nir Eyal: Exactly.

尼尔·埃亚尔：没错。

And by the way, we are cut from the same cloth.

顺便说一下，我们是同一块布料。

This is exactly the pattern I used to get into and I knew I wasn't doing my best because I wasn't putting in the time to the things that were most important.

这正是我曾经陷入的模式，我知道我没有尽力而为，因为我没有把时间花在最重要的事情上。

I was doing just what was easy and what was urgent and that's not good enough.

我只做简单的事情和紧急的事情，但这还不够好。

So, if we use this model, step number one is master the internal triggers.

因此，如果我们使用这个模型，第一步就是掌握内部触发器。

So, for you, Lenny, so when you say, "Okay, I know I've got to do this big important thing, but now I'm going to go check email," I would guess that there's some kind of underlying emotion that you're trying to escape.

所以，对于你来说，莱尼，当你说，“好吧，我知道我必须做一件重要的事情，但现在我要去检查电子邮件”，我猜你有某种潜在的情绪想要逃避。

Let's put yourself in the shoes that you were in when you said, "I was going to do that big important thing, but now I'm going to check email instead." Do you remember the last time that happened, by the way?

让我们设身处地地想一想，当你说“我本来要做那件重要的大事，但现在我要检查电子邮件”时，你就处于这样的境地。顺便问一下，你还记得上次发生这种事是什么时候吗？

Nir Eyal: Okay, perfect.

Nir Eyal：好的，完美。

Do you recall what you were feeling right before you went to Twitter or checked email or did the thing that you didn't want to do as opposed to the thing you said you were going to do?

您还记得在您访问 Twitter 或查看电子邮件或做您不想做的事情（而不是您说要做的事情）之前的感受吗？

Lenny: I don't know if this is an emotion or feeling, but there's just this, I need to get serious and start using my brain and there's going to be this deep work moment where I just get real deep and it takes a lot of effort to push me into that.

莱尼：我不知道这是一种情绪还是感觉，但就是这样，我需要认真对待并开始使用我的大脑，并且将会有一个深度工作的时刻，我会变得非常深入，并且需要付出很大的努力才能将我推入其中。

Sometimes easier, sometimes harder.

有时更容易，有时更难。

So, maybe it's avoiding this, "Oh, okay, I'm going to really have to think." It's like, I guess, it's the fear of the brain starting to really have to work.

所以，也许是在避免这种情况，“哦，好吧，我真的必须考虑一下。”我想，这就像是大脑开始真正发挥作用的恐惧。

Nir Eyal: Yeah, that's hard work.

Nir Eyal：是的，这很辛苦。

So maybe, it's a bit of laziness.

所以也许，这有点懒惰。

Maybe, it's a bit of momentum.

也许，是有点气势吧。

There's this uncomfortable feeling of this cold start problem.

这种冷启动问题给人一种不舒服的感觉。

"Oh, I don't really want to do it right now." So, this is incredibly important and I appreciate your candor here around what you feel because all of us experience it and we don't want to talk about it.

“哦，我现在还不想这么做。”所以，这非常重要，我感谢你在这里坦诚地表达你的感受，因为我们所有人都经历过它，但我们不想谈论它。

We want to think that it's, "Oh, I'll just grayscale my phone," or, "I'll just turn off notifications and that's going to solve the problem," and it never does.

我们想认为，“哦，我只需将手机灰度化”，或者“我只需关闭通知即可解决问题”，但事实并非如此。

And let me tell you, I tried all of it.

让我告诉你，我尝试了所有这些。

I went to Alibaba and I bought myself one of these flip phones from China like we used to have in the 1990s with no apps, no internet connection, and then I got myself a word processor off of eBay, so that I could just sit down and write and do the important stuff.

我去了阿里巴巴，从中国给自己买了一部翻盖手机，就像我们在 20 世纪 90 年代那样，没有应用程序，没有互联网连接，然后我从 eBay 上给自己买了一个文字处理器，这样我就可以坐下来写作和做重要的事情。

Nir Eyal: And even when I stopped using all the technology, even when I got rid of all the apps, I would sit down on my desk and I'd say, "Oh, you know what?

Nir Eyal：即使我停止使用所有技术，即使我摆脱了所有应用程序，我也会坐在办公桌上说，“哦，你知道吗？

There's that book that I've been meaning what to do some research in," or, "Let me just clean off my desk real quick," or, "You know what?

我一直在想对那本书做一些研究，”或者，“让我快速清理一下我的桌子，”或者，“你知道吗？

I should take out the trash." And I kept getting distracted because the problem is not our technology.

我应该把垃圾倒掉。”我一直心烦意乱，因为问题不在于我们的技术。

The problem is our inability to deal with discomfort.

问题是我们无法应对不适。

So, what I have adopted for myself and what I'd advise anyone who finds themselves in this situation is to always identify what is that internal trigger, what is that itch that you are looking to escape when you get distracted, because that is the source of 90% of our distractions.

因此，我对自己采取的措施以及我建议任何发现自己处于这种情况的人的建议是，始终确定内在触发因素是什么，当你分心时你想要逃避的渴望是什么，因为这是我们 90% 分心的根源。

It's not the pings, dings, and rings.

这不是“砰”、“叮”和“响”的声音。

It's the feelings.

这就是感情。

But to me, that's incredibly empowering because once you realize, "Wait a minute, it's just a feeling." It's all it is, it's just an emotion.

但对我来说，这是令人难以置信的力量，因为一旦你意识到，“等一下，这只是一种感觉。”一切都是如此，这只是一种情感。

Then you can have tools ready to go.

然后您就可以准备好工具了。

You can have arrows in your quiver ready to take out as soon as you feel that discomfort.

你可以在箭袋里备好箭，一旦感到不舒服就可以取出来。

Nir Eyal: So, let me give you one tool that I use every single day.

Nir Eyal：那么，让我给你一个我每天都会使用的工具。

Feel free to use it next time you feel this same problem.

下次您遇到同样问题时，请随意使用它。

It's called the 10-minute rule, and this is just one of a dozen different techniques that you can use that I put in the book, but this is one that I use almost every single day.

这就是所谓的“10 分钟规则”，这只是我在书中提供的十几种不同技巧中的一种，但这是我几乎每天都会使用的技巧。

So, for me, I've been a professional writer now for over a decade, and writing is never easy.

所以，对我来说，我成为一名职业作家已经十多年了，写作从来都不是一件容易的事。

I hear people say like, "Oh, just form a writing habit." I think that's ridiculous.

我听到人们说，“哦，养成写作习惯吧。”我认为这很荒谬。

I don't know what they're talking about.

我不知道他们在说什么。

A habit is defined as a behavior done with little or no conscious thought.

习惯被定义为很少或没有有意识地思考的行为。

I don't know how to write out of habit.

出于习惯我不知道怎么写。

Writing is always hard.

写作总是很难的。

Fricking work.

该死的工作。

I've written two bestsellers, thousands of articles and let me tell you, it's always difficult.

我写过两本畅销书，数千篇文章，让我告诉你，这总是很困难的。

It's hard, and all I want to do when I write is just Google this one thing or let me just check the news real quick or let me just do anything but the actual writing.

这很难，当我写作时我想做的只是谷歌这一件事，或者让我快速查看新闻，或者让我做任何事情，但实际写作除外。

So, here's what I do.

所以，这就是我所做的。

Lenny: By the way, there's a great quote that I'll share real quick about this that I think I share often on this podcast that I think it's falsely attributed to Hemingway, but it's that, "Writing is easy.

莱尼：顺便说一句，我会很快分享一句很棒的名言，我想我经常在这个播客上分享这句话，我认为它被错误地归因于海明威，但就是这样，“写作很容易。

Just sit down at the keyboard and bleed."

就坐在键盘前流血吧。”

Nir Eyal: Oh my God, that's so true.

Nir Eyal：哦天啊，那是真的。

It's so true, and I've not figured out how to make it suddenly easy.

这是真的，我还不知道如何让它突然变得容易。

Every single word is hard to type out, but I got to do it right and I love doing it.

每一个字都很难打出来，但我必须把它做好，而且我喜欢这样做。

I love having done it.

我喜欢这样做。

In the process, it's very difficult.

在这个过程中，是非常困难的。

But after I make the discovery, after I create something that I think is useful, then it's a lot of fun.

但在我发现之后，在我创造出一些我认为有用的东西之后，就会很有趣。

But doing the work is really difficult.

但做这项工作确实很困难。

So, here's what I do.

所以，这就是我所做的。

Every time that I am tempted to go do something else, which is all the time, what I will do is I will take out a timer, I'll take out my phone and I'll say, "Set a timer for 10 minutes." I'll put the phone down and my job is for those 10 minutes, whenever I'm ready, get back to the task at hand or do what's called surf the urge.

每当我想做别的事情时（每次都是这样），我会拿出一个计时器，拿出手机，然后说：“设置一个 10 分钟的计时器。”我会放下电话，这 10 分钟就是我的工作，只要我准备好，就回到手头的任务，或者做所谓的“冲浪”。

Nir Eyal: Surfing the urge acknowledges that these emotions are like waves.

Nir Eyal：冲浪的冲动承认这些情绪就像波浪一样。

They crest and then they subside.

它们达到顶峰，然后消退。

But that's not how we think about emotions.

但这不是我们思考情感的方式。

Most of us think about emotions as always being there.

我们大多数人都认为情绪始终存在。

If I feel bored, I feel like I'm always going to be bored.

如果我感到无聊，我觉得我会一直感到无聊。

If I'm frustrated, it feels like I'm always going to be frustrated, but that's never the case.

如果我感到沮丧，我会感觉自己总是会感到沮丧，但事实并非如此。

Emotions are like waves.

情绪就像波浪。

So, your job is to set that timer for 10 minutes and realize you can do just about anything for just 10 minutes.

所以，你的工作就是把计时器设置为 10 分钟，并意识到你可以在短短 10 分钟内做任何事情。

So, the idea is not to say don't do it.

所以，我们的想法并不是说不要这样做。

We know that this technique that a lot of people use of abstinence, telling yourself, "Don't do that, that's bad," actually can backfire.

我们知道，很多人使用的禁欲技巧告诉自己“不要这样做，那很糟糕”，实际上可能会适得其反。

And we can talk about the psychology if that's interesting of why abstinence backfires.

如果禁欲会适得其反的原因很有趣，我们可以谈谈心理学。

But a much healthier technique is not to tell yourself no. It's to tell yourself not yet.

但更健康的技巧是不要告诉自己“不”。是告诉自己还没有。

Nir Eyal: You're not saying no, you're saying not yet.

Nir Eyal：你不是说不，你是说还没有。

And so, you can do just about anything for 10 minutes.

所以，你可以在 10 分钟内做任何事情。

So, what I tell myself is, "Okay, I'm just going to wait 10 minutes before I check email, before I scroll social media, before I Google something that is just trying to procrastinate doing the work." I can do that.

所以，我告诉自己的是，“好吧，我要等 10 分钟，然后再查看电子邮件，再浏览社交媒体，再用 Google 搜索一些只是想拖延工作的东西。”我能做到。

I'm a grown man.

我是一个成年人了。

I can do whatever I want.

我可以做任何我想做的事。

I can do that in 10 minutes.

我可以在 10 分钟内完成。

And so, for those 10 minutes, all I have to do is either get back to the task at hand, get back to writing, or surf the urge, which is simply experiencing that sensation, acknowledging, "You know what?

因此，在这 10 分钟里，我所要做的就是要么回到手头的任务，继续写作，要么顺应冲动，这只是体验那种感觉，承认，“你知道吗？

This is hard work.

这是一项艰苦的工作。

That's okay.

没关系。

That's why I'm feeling frustrated.

这就是为什么我感到沮丧。

That's why I'm feeling bored.

这就是为什么我感到无聊。

That's why I'm feeling anxious.

这就是为什么我感到焦虑。

That's why I have this cold start around I don't really want to do this work because it's difficult."

这就是为什么我总是冷启动，我真的不想做这项工作，因为它很困难。”

Nir Eyal: So, what I do is I take a deep breath and I repeat a mantra that I made up for myself.

Nir Eyal：所以，我所做的就是深吸一口气，然后重复我为自己编造的咒语。

You can make up your own mantra.

你可以编造你自己的咒语。

My personal mantra whenever I feel this internal trigger is I remind myself this.

每当我感觉到这种内部触发因素时，我个人的口头禅就是提醒自己这一点。

I say, "This is what it feels like to get better.

我说：“这就是变得更好的感觉。

This is what it feels like to get better." And just saying that for as long as I need to until that emotion crests and subsides and then get back to work.

这就是变得更好的感觉。”只要我需要的话，就一直这样说，直到这种情绪达到顶峰并消退，然后再回去工作。

What you'll find nine times out of 10 is that by the time those 10 minutes are up, you will have forgotten about that sensation.

你十有八九会发现，当这 10 分钟结束时，你就会忘记那种感觉。

You'll be right back at the task at hand.

您将立即返回手头的任务。

And so, that's what's called the 10-minute rule.

这就是所谓的 10 分钟规则。

And of course what you're doing over time is that the 10-minute rule can become the 12-minute rule, can become the 20-minute rule, and most importantly, you are proving to yourself that you have agency that you said you were going to focus on a task and you did.

当然，随着时间的推移，你正在做的事情是，10 分钟规则可以变成 12 分钟规则，可以变成 20 分钟规则，最重要的是，你向自己证明，你有代理权，你说过你会专注于一项任务，而且你确实做到了。

That's the most important part.

这是最重要的部分。

Nir Eyal: The flip that we need to change in people's minds is this ridiculous belief that technology is hijacking our brains.

Nir Eyal：我们需要改变人们观念的转变是这种荒谬的信念，即技术正在劫持我们的大脑。

There's nothing we can do about distraction that our focus is being stolen.

对于注意力被窃取的干扰，我们无能为力。

It's not being stolen, we're giving it away.

它不是被偷了，而是我们把它送出去了。

And so, what we need to do is to empower ourselves by showing ourselves in practice as well as in theory that we can postpone that distraction when we say we will.

因此，我们需要做的是通过在实践和理论上展示自己来增强自己的能力，当我们说我们愿意时，我们可以推迟这种干扰。

Lenny: What I like about this is one, it's kind of like the Pomodoro technique, but it's shorter.

莱尼：我喜欢这个的一点是，它有点像番茄工作法，但它更短。

The 10 minutes I think is a really clever tweak versus 20 minutes, which a lot of people recommend.

我认为 10 分钟相对于很多人推荐的 20 分钟来说是一个非常聪明的调整。

And then I guess a couple of follow-up questions.

然后我想有几个后续问题。

Do you do this one time in the morning and then not come back to it?

你是否会在早上这样做一次，然后就不再继续了？

Is this like a jump start for the day and then you start...

这就像新的一天的开始，然后你就开始......

If I start a thing like this, it won't be 10 minutes, it'll be like an hour because I'm like, "Okay, I did the hard thing, I'm into it.

如果我开始做这样的事情，那不会是 10 分钟，而是一个小时，因为我会想，“好吧，我做了困难的事情，我很投入。

I'm just going to keep working." So, is this like a jump start for the morning or do you come back to this throughout the day?

我只是要继续工作。”那么，这是早上的一个快速开始还是你会在一天中不断地重复这个问题？

Nir Eyal: So, you can do it whenever you find yourself slipping off track.

Nir Eyal：所以，只要你发现自己偏离了轨道，你就可以这样做。

And so, the Pomodoro is a version of this.

所以，番茄钟就是这个的一个版本。

I don't think it's complete enough because Pomodoro just said, "Set the timer, do it." Okay, fine.

我认为它还不够完整，因为番茄钟只是说：“设置计时器，开始吧。”好吧，好吧。

And that's great if it works for you.

如果它对你有用的话那就太好了。

By the way, anything I'm saying right now, if the thing is working for you, if your life is awesome and you're doing what you said you're going to do, maybe this isn't the podcast.

顺便说一句，我现在所说的任何事情，如果这对你有用，如果你的生活很棒并且你正在做你说过你要做的事情，也许这不是播客。

Maybe my book isn't the book for you, right?

也许我的书不适合你，对吗？

I'm talking to the people who, for whatever reason, you know you're capable of more, you know you're drifting off track.

我正在和这些人交谈，无论出于何种原因，你知道自己有能力做得更多，也知道自己正在偏离轨道。

Maybe if like me, you said you were going to exercise but you didn't or you said you're going to eat right, but you don't.

也许像我一样，你说你要锻炼，但你没有，或者你说你要吃得好，但你没有。

You said you were going to work on that big task, but you procrastinate.

你说你要完成这项艰巨的任务，但你却拖延了。

That's really who I was and that's who I wrote this book for.

这就是我，也是我写这本书的对象。

Nir Eyal: And so, you can use that technique whenever you get distracted.

Nir Eyal：所以，只要你分心，你就可以使用这个技巧。

It's not the whole picture.

这不是全部。

So, it's super important.

所以，这非常重要。

Remember we talked about those four steps.

请记住我们讨论过这四个步骤。

This is just step number one.

这只是第一步。

There's about a dozen different things you can do.

您可以做大约十几种不同的事情。

Maybe this particular 10-minute rule doesn't work for you, doesn't work for everyone.

也许这个特殊的 10 分钟规则并不适合你，也不适合所有人。

There might be other techniques you use.

您可能还使用其他技术。

So, there's dozens of different techniques just about this step around mastering internal triggers.

因此，围绕掌握内部触发这一步骤，有数十种不同的技术。

But the next step to answer your question of well, how long do I go for?

但下一步要回答你的问题，我要花多长时间？

Do I do it for an hour?

我做一个小时吗？

If now, I'm in the zone?

如果现在，我在该区域？

And my answer is emphatically no. You don't go as long as you think you can.

我的回答绝对是否定的。你不会走只要你认为你能走多久。

What you want to do, and this is step number two, is you're making time for traction by turning your values into time, which means you are going to make a time box schedule because you cannot call something a distraction unless you know what it distracted you from.

你想要做的，这是第二步，是你通过将你的价值观转化为时间来腾出时间来吸引注意力，这意味着你要制定一个时间框时间表，因为你不能称某件事为干扰，除非你知道它分散了你的注意力。

Nir Eyal: I'll say that again.

Nir Eyal：我再说一遍。

You can't call something a distraction unless you know what it distracted you from.

除非你知道某件事分散了你的注意力，否则你不能称它为干扰。

So, for me, at least, when I would succumb to, "Oh, let me just check email for a quick minute, let me just see what's happening on Twitter for a quick minute," part of that was because I would justify to myself, "Well, this is a work-related task.

所以，至少对我来说，当我屈服于“哦，让我快速检查一下电子邮件，让我快速看看 Twitter 上发生了什么”时，部分原因是我会向自己证明，“好吧，这是一项与工作相关的任务。

I got to do it sometime," and there wasn't a specific time to do it on my calendar, so I would keep thinking, "Well, I got to do it sometime.

我必须找个时间来做这件事，”而且我的日历上没有具体的时间来做这件事，所以我会一直想，“好吧，我必须找个时间做这件事。

Might as well just do it now." And that's a huge mistake because if you can't look at your calendar and say, "Oh, that's traction." Okay, check email, write the blog post, post the podcast, go on social media.

还不如现在就做呢。”这是一个巨大的错误，因为如果你不能看看你的日历并说，“哦，这就是牵引力。”好吧，检查电子邮件，写博客文章，发布播客，上社交媒体。

If that's not what's written in your calendar, if it's not there, it's a distraction.

如果这不是你日历上写的内容，如果它不在那里，那就会分散你的注意力。

And so, it's not just work-related stuff.

因此，这不仅仅是与工作相关的事情。

I literally have time in my calendar, spend time with my daughter, go on social media, watch Netflix.

我确实有时间在我的日历上，花时间和我的女儿在一起，上社交媒体，看Netflix。

It's in my calendar.

它在我的日历中。

So now, I took what was previously distraction and I turned it into traction by putting it on my schedule.

所以现在，我把以前分散注意力的事情变成了牵引力，把它列入了我的日程安排。

Lenny: So, you actually do this through the day you have, "I'm going to check Twitter during this time of the day, I'm going to hang out with my daughter during this time of the day."

莱尼：所以，你实际上一整天都在这样做，“我会在一天中的这个时候查看 Twitter，我会在一天中的这个时候和我的女儿一起出去玩。”

Nir Eyal: Exactly.

尼尔·埃亚尔：没错。

And you're adjusting it never in the day.

而且你从来没有在一天中调整过它。

So, you never want to do that.

所以，你永远不想这样做。

You always want to make sure you're doing it the day before.

你总是想确保你在前一天就做了这件事。

And so, what I do once a week, Sunday evenings, it takes me maybe 10 minutes a week.

所以，我每周做一次，周日晚上，每周大约需要 10 分钟。

8:00 P.M., I sit down, I look at my schedule for the week ahead and I ask myself, "Does this schedule reflect my values?" What are values?

晚上 8:00，我坐下来，查看未来一周的日程安排，然后问自己：“这个日程安排反映了我的价值观吗？”什么是价值观？

Values are attributes of the person you want to become.

价值观是你想成为的人的属性。

I'll say it again.

我再说一遍。

Values are attributes of the person you want to become.

价值观是你想成为的人的属性。

So, there's three life domains, you, your relationships, and finally your work.

所以，生活分为三个领域：你、你的人际关系，最后是你的工作。

So, what you got to do is you look at your calendar for the week ahead and you ask yourself, "How would the person I want to become spend time taking care of themselves?" That's the you domain.

所以，你要做的就是查看未来一周的日历，然后问自己：“我想成为的人会如何花时间照顾自己？”那是你的域名。

If you can't take care of yourself, you can't take care of others, you can't make the world a better place.

如果你不能照顾自己，你就不能照顾别人，你就不能让世界变得更美好。

Nir Eyal: So then, you put in your calendar how you want to take care of yourself.

Nir Eyal：那么，您可以在日历中输入您想要如何照顾自己。

What might that include?

其中可能包括什么？

Well, time for rest.

嗯，是时候休息了。

We all know how important sleep is, but I used to yell at my daughter and say, "Oh, it's your bedtime.

我们都知道睡眠有多重要，但我常常对女儿大喊：“哦，现在是你的睡觉时间了。

You got to get to bed." And then one day she said to me, "Daddy, do you have a bedtime?" She was absolutely right.

你得去睡觉了。”有一天，她对我说：“爸爸，你睡觉了吗？”她是绝对正确的。

I was a hypocrite because I know how important sleep is and I didn't have a bedtime.

我是个伪君子，因为我知道睡眠有多重要，但我没有睡觉时间。

Now, I have a bedtime.

现在，我该睡觉了。

It's in my schedule.

它在我的日程安排中。

Then put in time for whatever else is important to you.

然后腾出时间去做其他对你来说重要的事情。

Is reading important to you?

读书对你来说重要吗？

Is prayer important to you?

祷告对你来说重要吗？

Is meditation, is exercise, is video games, is that important to you?

冥想、锻炼、电子游戏对你来说重要吗？

Great.

伟大的。

Whatever's important to you according to your values, put it in your schedule.

根据您的价值观，无论什么对您来说很重要，请将其放入您的日程安排中。

Then you're going to put your relationships in.

然后你要把你的关系放进去。

So, don't let the relationships in your life get whatever scraps of time are left over.

所以，不要让生活中的人际关系占据了剩下的时间。

Nir Eyal: Put time in your schedule for your significant other, for your kids, for your buddies.

Nir Eyal：在你的日程安排中留出时间陪伴你的另一半、你的孩子、你的朋友。

How many of us are trapped in this loneliness epidemic because we don't make time for our closest relationships, including adult friendships?

我们中有多少人因为没有时间与最亲密的关系（包括成年人的友谊）相处而陷入这种孤独感？

Don't let those wither away.

不要让它们枯萎。

Put time in your schedule for those, as well.

也请在你的日程安排中留出时间来处理这些事情。

We know that most friendships, they don't die in some big blowout.

我们知道，大多数友谊不会因重大的井喷而消亡。

Relationships starve to death because we don't invest in them.

人际关系会因我们不对其进行投资而濒临死亡。

Put time in your schedule for those relationships.

在你的日程安排中留出时间来处理这些关系。

We can talk about how to do that, as well.

我们也可以讨论如何做到这一点。

Then finally, the work domain involves two kinds of work.

最后，工作领域涉及两种工作。

We have what's called reactive work and reflective work.

我们有所谓的反应性工作和反思性工作。

Reactive work, reacting to notifications, reacting to emails, reacting to taps on the shoulder from your colleagues.

被动工作，对通知做出反应，对电子邮件做出反应，对同事拍拍肩膀做出反应。

That's going to be part of everybody's day.

这将成为每个人一天的一部分。

I get that, but don't let that be your entire day because what most people do, they habituate into not wanting to think.

我明白，但不要让这成为你的一整天，因为大多数人所做的事情，他们习惯于不想思考。

Nir Eyal: They don't want to think what's important.

Nir Eyal：他们不想思考什么是重要的。

"So, just let me look at my email inbox.

“所以，让我看看我的电子邮件收件箱。

My email inbox will tell me what to do.

我的电子邮件收件箱会告诉我该怎么做。

What's really important for my business?

什么对我的业务真正重要？

That's really hard.

这真的很难。

I don't really want to think about that.

我真的不想考虑这个。

I'll look at my to-do list and I'll start ticking off easy tasks to do that make me feel productive." That's terrible.

我会查看我的待办事项清单，然后开始勾选一些简单的任务来完成，让我感到富有成效。”太可怕了。

What you want to do instead is to book time in your schedule for this reflective work time, which is where you do the kind of work that requires you to work without distraction.

相反，你想要做的是在你的日程安排中为这个反思性工作时间预订时间，这是你做那种需要你心无旁骛地工作的时间。

Planning, strategizing, thinking, for god's sakes, can only be done without distraction.

看在上帝的份上，计划、战略、思考只能心无旁骛地进行。

So, that fills up your calendar, as well.

所以，这也填满了你的日历。

And what you're going to find, that there's never enough time for everything, which is good because what this forces you to do, and this is one of the main reasons why to-do lists suck, is because to-do lists have no constraints.

你会发现，永远没有足够的时间来做所有事情，这很好，因为这迫使你去做，这也是待办事项列表糟糕的主要原因之一，因为待办事项列表没有限制。

Nir Eyal: You can always add more to a to-do list.

Nir Eyal：您随时可以向待办事项列表添加更多内容。

You can always add more, but here's what happens.

您随时可以添加更多内容，但会发生以下情况。

This is what happened to me.

这就是发生在我身上的事情。

I would get home from work.

我会下班回家。

I have a very busy day and I'd look at my to-do list and it's a hundred items long and I think, "Wow, I've been working real hard all day and look at all this stuff I still didn't do.

我度过了非常忙碌的一天，我会查看我的待办事项清单，它有一百项之长，我想，“哇，我一整天都在努力工作，看看所有这些我仍然没有做的事情。

Loser." And so, day after day, week after week, month after month, I was reinforcing this self-image as someone who doesn't know how to manage their time.

失败者。”就这样，日复一日，周复一周，月复一月，我不断强化自己的自我形象，认为自己是一个不知道如何管理时间的人。

And then I started saying stupid stuff like, "Oh, maybe I'm no good at time management.

然后我开始说一些愚蠢的话，比如：“哦，也许我不擅长时间管理。

Maybe I have undiagnosed ADHD.

也许我患有未确诊的多动症。

Maybe there's something wrong with me." There's nothing wrong with me.

也许是我出了什么问题。”我没有什么问题。

There's something wrong with this very stupid to-do list method, which doesn't force you to understand that there are trade-offs that you have to prioritize properly and that can only be done with constraints and that constraints come from your calendar.

这种非常愚蠢的待办事项列表方法有问题，它并没有迫使您了解必须进行权衡，必须正确确定优先级，并且只能在有约束的情况下才能完成，而约束来自您的日历。

Nir Eyal: So, you're turning your values into time by making time for traction and having this calendar and then, only then you can look at your calendar and say, "Ah, whatever it is I plan to do, that's traction.

Nir Eyal：所以，你可以通过为牵引力腾出时间并拥有这个日历，将你的价值观转化为时间，然后，只有这样你才能查看你的日历并说，“啊，无论我计划做什么，这就是牵引力。

Everything else is distraction."

其他一切都是干扰。”

Lenny: I want to share a couple things that worked for me that are very much along these lines.

莱尼：我想分享一些对我有用的事情，大致上是这样的。

One is booking.

一是预订。

I call it deep work time within the day.

我称之为一天中的深度工作时间。

This was the only thing I had in the calendar, so I didn't do the other things, which I think would've been really helpful, but I had a, I called it deep work time.

这是我日历上唯一的事情，所以我没有做其他事情，我认为这真的很有帮助，但我有一个，我称之为深度工作时间。

I will slap you if you book anything over this meeting.

如果你在这次会议上预订了任何东西，我会扇你一巴掌。

Lenny: And I did that every Monday morning, Wednesday morning, and Friday sometime, and on that...

莱尼：我每周一早上、周三早上和周五的某个时候都会这样做，然后……

Lenny: I would be slapping the person that booked time over that slot and nobody can...

莱尼：我会扇那些在那个时段预订时间的人的耳光，但没有人可以……

Lenny: And I don't know if that's allowed these days.

莱尼：我不知道现在是否允许这样做。

I don't know how this...

我不知道这怎么...

Nir Eyal: Depends who you're booking with, I guess.

Nir Eyal：我想这取决于您向谁预订。

Lenny: Yeah, make it a little less aggressive maybe.

莱尼：是的，也许让它不那么咄咄逼人一点。

But that worked a ton.

但这很有效。

It was like a two- or three-hour block of deep work time and that made a big dent in my ability to have time to focus because people weren't booking me as a PM.

这就像两三个小时的深度工作时间，这极大地削弱了我集中注意力的能力，因为人们没有任命我为产品经理。

Nir Eyal: Yeah, I love it.

Nir Eyal：是的，我喜欢它。

And by the way, I want to hear more of these, but that illustrates a really good point that when the stakes are high enough, I hear people a lot of times saying, "I just can't find the time to focus and I can't get this done and it's impossible these days." And then I say, "Well, let's make a little wager here." Let's say, I get this around physical fitness a lot or somebody says, "Oh, I want to be an author.

顺便说一句，我想听到更多这样的事情，但这说明了一个非常好的观点，即当风险足够高时，我经常听到人们说，“我就是找不到时间集中精力，我无法完成这件事，现在这是不可能的。”然后我说：“好吧，我们在这里打个赌吧。”比方说，我经常与身体健康有关，或者有人说，“哦，我想成为一名作家。

How do I do that?

我该怎么做？

How do I write the book?

我该如何写这本书？

I can't seem to find the time." And they constantly say why They can't, they can't, they can't.

我好像找不到时间。”他们不断地说为什么他们不能，他们不能，他们不能。

"There's this constraint.

“有这个限制。

My boss wants this.

我的老板想要这个。

My kids want that." They have every kind of excuse.

我的孩子们想要这样。”他们有各种各样的借口。

And then I say, "Okay, let's say that if you don't work out, 8:00 A.M.

然后我说：“好吧，假设你早上 8:00 不锻炼的话。

Monday morning, if you don't work out, you're going to have to pay me $10,000.

周一早上，如果你没有锻炼，你就得付给我 10,000 美元。

Are you going to do it?

你要做吗？

Are you going to work out?"

你要去锻炼吗？”

Nir Eyal: "Well, of course, I'm going to work out.

Nir Eyal：“嗯，当然，我要去锻炼。

Easily.

很容易。

Yes, of course." Okay, so we've established you can.

是的，当然。”好的，我们已经确定您可以。

Now, we're just negotiating the price.

现在，我们只是在协商价格。

So, this has to do with step four around making pacts, making what's called a pre-commitment, and one of them is a price pact.

因此，这与签订协议的第四步有关，即做出所谓的预先承诺，其中之一就是价格协议。

This is how I got in shape.

这就是我塑造身材的方法。

I used to be clinically obese.

我曾经是临床肥胖者。

Today, I'm in the best shape of my life, partially because I use these pacts.

今天，我处于一生中最好的状态，部分原因是我使用了这些契约。

Now, the important thing is you have to do this last.

现在，重要的是你必须最后做这件事。

If you don't figure out the internal triggers, most importantly, if you don't make time for traction in your schedule, if you don't hack back the external triggers, this fourth step won't work.

如果你不找出内部触发因素，最重要的是，如果你没有在日程安排中腾出时间来牵引，如果你不破解外部触发因素，那么第四步就行不通。

But as the last line of defense, it's incredibly impactful and we can talk about how to do that, as well.

但作为最后一道防线，它的影响力非常大，我们也可以讨论如何做到这一点。

Lenny: I heard the all-in guys did this to lose weight.

莱尼：我听说那些全力以赴的人这样做是为了减肥。

I think Sax and Jason did a pact, too.

我认为萨克斯和杰森也达成了一项协议。

I think it was a lot of money, a hundred thousand dollars or something wild for...

我认为这是很多钱，十万美元或者其他疯狂的东西......

Nir Eyal: Oh, that's awesome.

Nir Eyal：哦，那太棒了。

Actually, that's what I used to finish this book, as well.

事实上，我也是用这个方法来完成这本书的。

Maybe they read my book, I wonder, because I talked about this exact situation.

我想，也许他们读了我的书，因为我谈到了这个具体情况。

Lenny: You hit it.

莱尼：你击中了。

It sounds like.

听起来像。

You made it.

你做到了。

Lenny: Another trick I'll share that I found useful around the to-do list.

莱尼：我将分享的另一个技巧是我发现在待办事项列表中有用的。

So, I used to-do lists, but I've learned that I can't just let them grow is when I had a regular job.

所以，我曾经用过待办事项清单，但我了解到，当我有一份固定工作时，我不能让它们不断增长。

I wrote it down in a notebook and every morning, I rewrote the to-do list so that it reminded me like, "Okay, I've copied this thing 10 times now.

我把它写在笔记本上，每天早上，我都会重写待办事项清单，这样它就会提醒我，“好吧，我已经把这件事抄了 10 遍了。

I'm not going to do it.

我不会这么做。

I'm just going to push it out." So, that act of just rethinking about it every day was really impactful.

我只是要把它推出去。”所以，每天重新思考这个问题的行为确实很有影响力。

But that works for people that are okay with an analog to-do list.

但这对于那些可以接受模拟待办事项列表的人来说是有效的。

If it's digital, that doesn't go away.

如果它是数字化的，那么这种情况就不会消失。

Nir Eyal: So, I just want to clarify, there's nothing wrong with taking things out of your brain and putting them on a piece of paper.

Nir Eyal：所以，我只是想澄清一下，从你的大脑中取出一些东西并将它们写在一张纸上并没有什么错。

That's wonderful, but that's step one.

这太棒了，但这只是第一步。

And so, the big mistake that people make is they put stuff on their to-do list and then they wake up in the morning and what are they supposed to do?

所以，人们犯的一个大错误就是他们把事情放在待办事项清单上，然后他们早上醒来，他们应该做什么？

"Well, I'll do whatever's on my to-do list." And so, what they tend to do is the easy stuff.

“好吧，我会做我的待办事项清单上的任何事情。”因此，他们倾向于做简单的事情。

I've known people, I hate to tell you, I used to do this myself, too.

我认识一些人，我不想告诉你，我自己也曾经这样做过。

I would do a task and then forget to put it on my to-do list.

我会完成一项任务，然后忘记将其放入我的待办事项列表中。

So, I would go back in and write it on my to-do list just so I could check off the box.

所以，我会回去把它写在我的待办事项清单上，这样我就可以勾选这个框。

How messed up is that?

这有多乱？

It's ridiculous.

这太荒谬了。

And I think this is something that I think really does need to change is that we have this culture where checking stuff off your list is our little emotional reward, right?

我认为，我认为真正需要改变的是，我们有一种文化，在这种文化中，从清单上划掉一些东西是我们小小的情感奖励，对吗？

Nir Eyal: But that's ridiculous.

Nir Eyal：但这太荒谬了。

We need to stop measuring ourselves by how many cute little boxes we check off.

我们需要停止用勾选了多少个可爱的小盒子来衡量自己。

And rather, a much more important metric is not, "Did I finish the task?" I don't want you to track, "Did I finish?" That's not the important part, but people are probably scratching their heads.

相反，更重要的指标不是“我完成任务了吗？”我不想让你跟踪“我完成了吗？”这不是重要的部分，但人们可能会摸不着头脑。

What do you mean?

你是什​​么意思？

Isn't it all about finishing what I have to do?

这不就是为了完成我该做的事吗？

No, the important part is figuring out your productivity.

不，重要的是弄清楚你的生产力。

It's figuring out how efficient you are at using your time.

它正在弄清楚您使用时间的效率如何。

So, a much more beneficial metric to track is not, "Did I check off the box?

因此，一个更有益的跟踪指标不是“我勾选了复选框吗？

Did I finish?" Rather, it's, "Did I do what I said I was going to do for as long as I said I would without distraction?" I'll say it again.

我说完了吗？”相反，它是，“我是否按照我所说的那样，心无旁骛地做了我说过要做的事情？”我再说一遍。

"Did I do what I said I was going to do for as long as I said I would without distraction?"

“我是否按照我说的那样，心无旁骛地做了我说过要做的事情？”

Nir Eyal: Because that is the only way to understand how long things take you.

Nir Eyal：因为这是了解事情需要多长时间的唯一方法。

The problem with to-do lists is that there is no feedback loop, there's no feedback mechanism.

待办事项列表的问题在于没有反馈循环，没有反馈机制。

How long do things take you?

事情需要多长时间？

So, this is why you have what's called the planning fallacy with people who use to-do lists, which says that on average, studies have found that tasks take people three times longer to finish than they estimate.

因此，这就是为什么使用待办事项列表的人会出现所谓的计划谬误，研究发现，平均而言，人们完成任务所需的时间比他们估计的要长三倍。

Why does that happen?

为什么会发生这种情况？

Because when you say, "Okay, here's that thing on the to-do list.

因为当你说：“好吧，这就是待办事项清单上的事情。

I'm going to work on that and see how long it takes me to get it done." So, you work on it for five minutes and then you get an email and then you get a notification and then you start talking to one of your colleagues and you never actually track how long that thing took you to finish, as opposed to when you say, "Look, I'm going to work on that task for as long as I said I would, but without distraction.

我会努力解决这个问题，看看需要多长时间才能完成。”所以，你花了五分钟处理它，然后你收到一封电子邮件，然后你收到一条通知，然后你开始与你的一位同事交谈，你从来没有真正跟踪你完成这件事花了多长时间，而不是当你说，“听着，我会按照我说的那样完成这项任务，但不会分心。

That's it.

就是这样。

That's all I'm going to do."

这就是我要做的全部事情。”

Nir Eyal: What you now have is a metric of how far you got.

Nir Eyal：你现在拥有的是衡量你走了多远的指标。

So, I worked on that presentation, it needs to be 30 slides long, and I worked on it for 30 minutes and I finished two slides.

所以，我制作了那个演示文稿，它需要 30 张幻灯片，我花了 30 分钟，完成了两张幻灯片。

Okay, great.

好的，太好了。

Well now, I know that I need 10 more of those time boxes to finish the entire task.

现在，我知道我还需要 10 个这样的时间框才能完成整个任务。

And this is why it turns out that people who measure themselves the way I espouse of people who say, "I'm just going to measure myself based on, did I do what I said I was going to do for as long as I said I would without distraction regardless of whether I finished," the kicker here is they actually finish more.

这就是为什么那些用我支持的方式衡量自己的人会说，“我只是根据我是否做了我说的我要做的事情，只要我说我会做，无论我是否完成，都会心无旁骛”，这里的关键是他们实际上完成了更多。

They get more done than the to-do list people because now, they understand how long things take them to finish and they can appropriately time that as opposed to what most of us did.

他们比待办事项清单上的人完成了更多的工作，因为现在，他们知道完成事情需要多长时间，并且他们可以适当地安排时间，而不是我们大多数人所做的。

Nir Eyal: What I used to do before I wrote Indistractable was procrastinate, procrastinate, procrastinate.

Nir Eyal：在写《Indistractable》之前我所做的就是拖延、拖延、拖延。

"Oh crap, I got to get this done.

“噢，糟糕，我必须完成这件事。

The deadline's here, so I'm going to work all night to finish it," and of course, that's not when you do your best work and it's very stressful.

截止日期到了，所以我要通宵工作来完成它，”当然，这不是你尽力而为的时候，而且压力很大。

Lenny: Since you mentioned deadlines, do you have any advice lessons on that as a tool to get things done?

莱尼：既然你提到了最后期限，作为完成工作的工具，你有什么建议吗？

Nir Eyal: What we find is that people who are very deadline motivated, they do finish what they say they're going to do, but of course, the quality is crap.

Nir Eyal：我们发现，那些非常有截止日期动机的人，他们确实完成了他们所说的要做的事情，但当然，质量很糟糕。

They're typically getting by by the skin of their teeth, and I did this all the time.

他们通常都是靠牙齿勉强度日，我也一直这么做。

This is my entire college career and my MBA at Stanford career was waiting, waiting, waiting, and then finishing at the last moment.

这就是我的整个大学生涯，我在斯坦福大学的MBA生涯一直在等待、等待、等待，然后在最后一刻结束。

And I could do well enough, but of course, I could do so much better if I worked without distraction.

我可以做得足够好，但当然，如果我心无旁骛地工作，我可以做得更好。

And so, it wasn't until, and we all know this basically, right?

所以，直到我们基本上都知道了，对吧？

We know that putting in a little bit of diligent effort, a little bit at a time with plenty of lead time is going to give us a much better result than cramming at the last minute.

我们知道，付出一点点勤奋的努力，一次一点点，并有足够的准备时间，会给我们带来比在最后一刻临时抱佛脚更好的结果。

But the reason people don't do this is because they don't understand how important it is, one, to manage those internal triggers.

但人们不这样做的原因是他们不明白管理这些内部触发因素有多么重要。

Nir Eyal: If you're constantly thinking, "Ugh, that project is going to suck.

Nir Eyal：如果你不断地想，“呃，那个项目会很糟糕。

I don't really want to work on it.

我真的不想为此工作。

I don't want to make those sales calls.

我不想打那些销售电话。

I don't want to make that presentation.

我不想做那个演讲。

I don't want to do that thing that feels uncomfortable," and you don't have the tools to deal with that discomfort, you're always going to procrastinate because fundamentally, procrastination is an emotion regulation problem.

我不想做那种感觉不舒服的事情，”而你没有工具来处理这种不舒服，你总是会拖延，因为从根本上来说，拖延是一个情绪调节问题。

It's not a character flaw.

这不是性格缺陷。

There's nothing wrong with you, you're not broken.

你没有什么问题，你没有崩溃。

It's just that you don't have the tools to deal with emotional discomfort and that's the part that everybody skips over.

只是你没有处理情绪不适的工具，而这是每个人都会跳过的部分。

So, we don't want to talk about these uncomfortable feelings, but that's where it has to start.

所以，我们不想谈论这些不舒服的感觉，但这就是它必须开始的地方。

And then, the part that people don't do is actually planning out not the task itself, but the time to work on the task without distraction.

然后，人们不做的部分实际上不是计划任务本身，而是计划不分心地完成任务的时间。

That's the part that if you can implement that step two that I talked about of making time for traction, that becomes a game changer.

这就是如果你能够实施我谈到的第二步，即腾出时间来吸引注意力，那就会改变游戏规则。

Lenny: So, I've tried things like this where it's here throughout the day, I'm going to try this, I'm going to do this and this, and I just don't end up doing it.

莱尼：所以，我已经尝试过这样的事情，它整天都在这里，我要尝试这个，我要做这个，这个，但我只是没有最终这样做。

Things come up or I just get distracted.

事情发生了，或者我就分心了。

I'm like, whatever.

我就像，无论如何。

I guess one question is how often do you find yourself doing the things you set out in your calendar?

我想一个问题是，您发现自己多久做一次日历中列出的事情？

And then two, any other advice for actually staying on track and doing things you set out to?

那么第二个问题，对于真正保持正轨并做你设定的事情还有其他建议吗？

Nir Eyal: Okay, so number one, did you have tools in place to deal with the discomfort?

Nir Eyal：好的，第一，你有适当的工具来应对这种不适吗？

What did you do when you didn't feel it?

当你没有感觉的时候你做了什么？

Lenny: I did not.

莱尼：我没有。

I did not have that surfing the wave and the ten-minute trick, and I'm curious if there's other tricks in that bucket actually, but no, I did not.

我没有冲浪和十分钟的技巧，我很好奇实际上是否还有其他技巧，但不，我没有。

Nir Eyal: Absolutely.

尼尔·埃亚尔：当然。

Yeah.

是的。

So, that's the most important thing and that is the most important section.

所以，这是最重要的事情，也是最重要的部分。

That's why I put it at the front of the book because again, procrastination is an emotion regulation problem, and I think this is fascinating.

这就是为什么我把它放在书的前面，因为拖延是一个情绪调节问题，我认为这很有趣。

Personally, I really wanted to dive deep and not only understand why do we not do what we say we're going to do, but why do we do anything and everything?

就我个人而言，我真的很想深入研究，不仅了解我们为什么不按照我们所说的去做，而且了解我们为什么要做任何事情？

What is the seat of human motivation?

人类动机的根源是什么？

And I think I didn't understand it properly.

我想我没有正确理解它。

I think most people don't understand motivation properly.

我认为大多数人都没有正确理解动机。

Doesn't that blow your mind?

这不让你大吃一惊吗？

If you think about it, "I know what to do.

如果你想一想，“我知道该怎么做。

I agree, this is what needs to get done.

我同意，这就是需要完成的事情。

I just don't do it." Isn't that ridiculous?

我就是不这么做。”这不是很可笑吗？

And by the way, this is not a new problem.

顺便说一句，这并不是一个新问题。

Plato, 2500 years ago, the Greek philosopher talked about this very same problem.

2500年前，希腊哲学家柏拉图就谈到了同样的问题。

2500 years before the internet, before social media, before all these things that we think are so distracting online, the Greek philosopher has had the same exact problem.

早在互联网、社交媒体、所有这些我们认为在网上分散注意力的事物出现之前 2500 年，这位希腊哲学家就遇到了同样的问题。

Nir Eyal: This is part of the human condition.

Nir Eyal：这是人类状况的一部分。

It is part of our DNA that we constantly get distracted.

我们经常分心，这是我们基因的一部分。

But to me, that's a fascinating mystery.

但对我来说，这是一个令人着迷的谜。

Why is that?

这是为什么？

Well, if you look at the deeper question of why do we do anything and everything, the seat of human motivation most people think is about carrots and sticks.

好吧，如果你看一下更深层次的问题，即我们为什么要做任何事情和每件事，大多数人认为人类动机的根源是胡萝卜加大棒。

If you ask people, why do we do what we do?

如果你问人们，我们为什么要做我们所做的事情？

It's about the pursuit of pleasure and the avoidance of pain.

这是关于追求快乐和避免痛苦。

Jeremy Bentham said something similar to this.

杰里米·边沁也说过类似的话。

Sigmund Freud called it the pleasure principle.

西格蒙德·弗洛伊德称之为快乐原则。

Neurologically speaking, it's not true.

从神经学角度来说，这是不正确的。

It's not true.

这不是真的。

It's not about the pursuit of pleasure and the avoidance of pain.

这不是追求快乐和避免痛苦。

It's not about carrots and sticks, but in fact, the carrot is the stick, okay?

这不是胡萝卜加大棒的问题，但事实上，胡萝卜就是大棒，好吗？

This is where I want to give you that matrix-like...

这就是我想给你的矩阵式的......

Remember that scene, the Matrix, where there's that kid with a spoon and the spoon starts bending and the kid says, "Imagine there is no spoon," right?

还记得那个场景，黑客帝国，那个孩子拿着勺子，勺子开始弯曲，孩子说，“想象一下没有勺子，”对吗？

Nir Eyal: Well, the carrot is the stick.

Nir Eyal：嗯，胡萝卜就是大棒。

What do I mean by that?

我这么说是什么意思？

We know that the only reason we do everything in anything from a neurological perspective is not about the pursuit of pleasure.

我们知道，从神经学的角度来看，我们做任何事情的唯一原因并不是为了追求快乐。

It is all about the desire to escape discomfort.

这一切都是为了逃避不适。

Everything you do, even the pursuit of pleasurable sensations, the carrot is the stick, because even wanting to feel good, craving, lusting, desire, hunger, that desire for something that feels good is itself psychologically destabilizing.

你所做的一切，即使是追求愉悦的感觉，胡萝卜也是大棒，因为即使是想要感觉良好、渴望、欲望、欲望、饥饿，这种对感觉良好的东西的渴望本身也会在心理上造成不稳定。

The carrot is the stick.

胡萝卜就是大棒。

So, what that means, I think that's incredibly empowering because what that means is that whenever we don't do something, whenever we procrastinate, it's just a feeling.

所以，这意味着什么，我认为这是令人难以置信的授权，因为这意味着每当我们不做某事，每当我们拖延时，这只是一种感觉。

It's all it is.

就这样了。

It's just a feeling.

这只是一种感觉。

And so, when we learn those tools, it doesn't mean where I think people start intellectualizing it and thinking, "There must be something broken with me.

因此，当我们学习这些工具时，这并不意味着我认为人们开始将其智能化并思考：“我一定有什么问题。

Maybe you need a pill, maybe you need a treatment."

也许你需要药物，也许你需要治疗。”

Nir Eyal: Chances are there's a ninety-nine percent chance, there's nothing wrong with you.

Nir Eyal：有百分之九十九的可能性，你没有任何问题。

It's simply that you don't have these tools.

只是你没有这些工具。

So, that's where we have to start, is absolutely understanding and applying these techniques so that when you feel that discomfort, you use that discomfort.

所以，这就是我们必须开始的地方，绝对理解并应用这些技术，这样当你感到不适时，你就可以利用这种不适。

What I found in my research writing this book is that high performers in every industry, business, the arts, sports, high performers, they feel the same internal triggers.

我在写这本书的研究中发现，每个行业、商业、艺术、体育领域的高绩效者，他们都会感受到相同的内部触发因素。

They also feel lonely.

他们也感到孤独。

They also feel bored.

他们也感到无聊。

They also feel stressed.

他们也感到压力。

They also feel anxious, but they use that discomfort like a rocket fuel to propel them towards traction.

他们也会感到焦虑，但他们会像火箭燃料一样利用这种不适来推动自己前进。

Whereas what distractable people do, as soon as they feel uncomfortable, as soon as they feel bored, as soon as they feel lonesome, as soon as soon as they feel indecisive or stressed, boom, they're escaping it with a drink, with a click, with something to take their mind off of that discomfort.

而那些容易分心的人所做的事情，一旦他们感到不舒服，一旦他们感到无聊，一旦他们感到孤独，一旦他们感到优柔寡断或有压力，他们就会用一杯饮料，一声咔嗒声，用一些东西来摆脱这种不适。

So, that has to be step number one.

所以，这必须是第一步。

Lenny: That is fascinating.

莱尼：这很有趣。

Basically, distraction is an emotional regulation problem.

基本上，分心是一个情绪调节问题。

It's the way you put it.

这就是你说的方式。

What else works in helping you manage that discomfort?

还有什么可以帮助您应对这种不适？

We've talked about this ten-minute trick, the timer, the surfing of the urge.

我们已经讨论过这个十分钟的技巧、计时器、冲浪的冲动。

What else is in that bucket of things I could try when I'm just like, "Nah, I'm just going to go check Twitter.

当我想“不，我只是要去查看 Twitter”时，我还能尝试什么。

I need to work on this thing, right now."

我现在需要做这件事。”

Nir Eyal: Yeah, so there's a bunch of different techniques you can use there in terms of the internal triggers.

Nir Eyal：是的，因此您可以在内部触发器方面使用许多不同的技术。

We can get into some of the more nitty-gritty techniques.

我们可以了解一些更具体的技术。

There's lots and lots of them.

有很多很多。

The most important thing here though is that once you have some in your toolkit that you want to try, let's say it's a ten-minute rule, it's surfing the urge, there's re-imagining the task, the temperament, all kinds of things that you can do.

不过，这里最重要的是，一旦你的工具箱中有了一些你想尝试的东西，假设这是一个十分钟的规则，它就是控制冲动，重新想象任务、气质，以及你可以做的各种事情。

The next thing is to put it on your calendar, which we talked about briefly.

接下来的事情是将其放在您的日历上，我们对此进行了简要讨论。

So, let's say you say, "Okay, I've got that time when I..." What did you say that you want to do, that you check email instead?

那么，假设您说，“好吧，我有时间……”您说您想做什么，而不是检查电子邮件？

Lenny: Start on my newsletter post for the next week, or just continue.

莱尼：从下周的新闻通讯开始，或者继续。

Nir Eyal: Okay.

尼尔·埃亚尔：好的。

And did you have that in your calendar?

你的日历里有这个吗？

That was part of the time punch-me-in-the-face-if-I-don't-do-it kind of thing?

那是“如果我不做的话就打我的脸”之类的事情的一部分吗？

Lenny: That was back when I had a regular job.

莱尼：那是在我有一份固定工作的时候。

These days, it's just, what I used to do is my first half of the day until 3:00 is just deep work time.

现在，只是，我以前做的就是我的前半天，直到3:00只是深度工作时间。

I called it it's-time-to-build time, and then 3:00 beyond is meetings.

我称其为构建时间，然后 3:00 之后就是会议。

So, it was actually a huge block of time of focus time, but it was not subdivided by the things I wanted to do throughout the day.

所以，这实际上是一大块专注时间，但它并没有被我一整天想做的事情细分。

Nir Eyal: I see.

尼尔·埃亚尔：我明白了。

Okay.

好的。

So, step two would be putting on your calendar, "I'm going to work on writing this newsletter for 30 minutes, 45 minutes, whatever amount of time." Make it whatever is reasonable for you based on how long you think you can do it.

所以，第二步就是在你的日历上写下：“我将花 30 分钟、45 分钟或任何时间来写这份时事通讯。”根据您认为可以完成的时间，制定对您来说合理的时间。

Put that on your schedule.

把它列入你的日程安排。

Okay?

好的？

Step number three is hack back the external triggers.

第三步是破解外部触发器。

So, did you find that when you said I was going to work on writing this newsletter, was there anything in your external environment that was pinging, dinging, kids, pets, spouse, anything like that?

那么，当您说我要写这份时事通讯时，您是否发现您的外部环境中是否有任何东西发出叮叮声、叮叮声、孩子、宠物、配偶等类似的声音？

Lenny: It's interesting that now that you say that, just that fact that only 10% of distractions are from that.

Lenny：有趣的是，既然你这么说，那么事实上只有 10% 的干扰来自于此。

So, it makes me, on the one hand, I recognize that most of the time, there's not a thing pulling me to Twitter, LinkedIn, or whatever.

所以，一方面，它让我认识到，大多数时候，没有什么东西能吸引我去 Twitter、LinkedIn 或其他什么地方。

Most of the time, it's just like, that's probably something interesting going on.

大多数时候，这就像，这可能是一些有趣的事情发生。

But there's definitely times when I see a little badge or my little phone gets a little push or yeah, my wife's with a kid in the distance.

但有时我会看到一个小徽章，或者我的小手机被轻轻推了一下，或者是的，我妻子带着一个孩子在远处。

I'm like, "Oh, let's go check out what's happening there."

我想，“哦，让我们去看看那里发生了什么。”

Nir Eyal: Yeah.

尼尔·埃亚尔：是的。

So, that's where we want to hack back.

所以，这就是我们想要反击的地方。

So, the reason I use the term hack.

所以，这就是我使用“黑客”一词的原因。

To hack something is to gain unauthorized access.

破解某些东西就是获得未经授权的访问。

Someone hacks into your bank account or hacks into your database.

有人侵入您的银行帐户或数据库。

We know that these technologies are gaining unauthorized access to our attention span when they're constantly pinging and dinging us.

我们知道，当这些技术不断地对我们产生影响时，它们就会未经授权地侵入我们的注意力范围。

So, there's some very simple things you can do.

因此，您可以做一些非常简单的事情。

Setting a schedule in advance so that your device turns off as it goes to do-not-disturb during certain times of the day or before you begin this task, before you start writing, you make sure to turn on do-not-disturb, so that there's nothing in your way.

提前设置一个时间表，以便您的设备在一天中的某些时间或在开始这项任务之前关闭免打扰功能，在开始写作之前，请确保打开免打扰功能，这样就不会妨碍您。

On my desktop, I have a do-not-disturb set from midnight to 11:59 all the time.

在我的桌面上，我一直设置了从午夜到 11:59 的请勿打扰。

It's constantly on do-not-disturb because I don't want these constant notifications disturbing me when I'm doing focus work.

它一直处于请勿打扰状态，因为我不希望这些持续不断的通知在我专注工作时打扰我。

Nir Eyal: So, making sure that that's on.

Nir Eyal：所以，请确保该功能已开启。

When it comes to, many of us work from home today, so making sure that your family knows when the time is that you are indistractable.

说到这里，我们很多人现在都在家工作，所以要确保你的家人知道你什么时候可以不分心。

And I'll give you one tip.

我会给你一个提示。

I know you have a baby at home, but soon, that baby is going to be a toddler.

我知道你家里有一个孩子，但很快，那个孩子就会成为一个小孩。

And so, one thing that we did in my household is that my wife went to Amazon and she got what we call the concentration crown.

因此，我们在家里做的一件事就是我的妻子去了亚马逊，她得到了我们所说的集中王冠。

And the concentration crown is just this little wreath thing that she wears.

集中王冠就是她戴的这个小花环。

It looks like a little princess thing.

看起来就像是一个小公主的样子。

It has little LED lights.

它有小 LED 灯。

It lights up.

它亮了。

There's a picture of it in the book.

书上有一张它的照片。

And when my daughter was only six years old, we told her, "Look, whenever mommy is wearing the concentration crown, that means that she can't be interrupted and she will be with you within 30 minutes."

当我女儿只有六岁的时候，我们告诉她：“看，只要妈妈戴着专注王冠，就意味着她不能被打扰，她会在 30 分钟内和你在一起。”

Nir Eyal: So, her time block was always no more than 30 minutes.

Nir Eyal：所以，她的时间段总是不超过 30 分钟。

So, we said, "We will be with you within 30 minutes.

所以，我们说：“我们将在 30 分钟内与您联系。

Please don't interrupt unless you're bleeding.

除非你流血了，否则请不要打扰。

Okay?

好吧？

If you're bleeding, you can interrupt us, but unless you're bleeding," this is when my daughter was only six years old.

如果你流血了，你可以打断我们，但除非你流血了，”这是我女儿只有六岁的时候。

She could find something to do.

她可以找点事做。

It's okay for kids to be bored time to time, but as long as mommy was wearing the concentration crown that told her, and by the way, me, as her significant other, as her husband, worked really, really well because I would always interrupt her and say, "Hey Julie, can I ask you this one thing?" And she was working on her computer, but I didn't know whether she was listening to a podcast or a video or doing work that needed concentration.

孩子们时不时感到无聊是可以的，但只要妈妈戴着告诉她的专注王冠，顺便说一句，我，作为她的另一半，作为她的丈夫，工作得非常非常好，因为我总是打断她并说：“嘿朱莉，我可以问你一件事吗？”她正在电脑上工作，但我不知道她是在听播客或视频，还是在做需要集中注意力的工作。

So, hacking back those external triggers, making sure that they don't gain unauthorized access by interrupting the interruption, whether it's with your kids, your colleagues.

因此，黑客攻击这些外部触发器，确保它们不会通过中断中断来获得未经授权的访问，无论是与您的孩子还是您的同事。

Nir Eyal: So, every copy of indistractable has this little pull-out piece of paper, this piece of card stock that you fold into thirds and you put on your computer monitor.

Nir Eyal：所以，每本不可分心的书都有这张拉出的小纸，这张卡片纸可以折叠成三分之一，然后放在电脑显示器上。

Okay, it's this big red sign on your computer monitor that says, "I'm indistractable at the moment.

好吧，你的电脑显示器上有一个红色的大标志，上面写着：“我现在注意力不集中。

Please come back later." Now you can say, "Well, why don't I just put on headphones and my colleagues will know I'm not to be interrupted?" Yeah, but then they think you're putzing around, playing video games or something on your machine, as opposed to if you say, "No, I'm doing focused work right now, please come back later," you're making it acceptable to not constantly be interrupted.

请稍后再回来。”现在您可以说：“好吧，我为什么不戴上耳机，这样我的同事就会知道我不会被打扰？”是的，但是他们会认为你在闲逛，在机器上玩电子游戏或其他东西，而不是如果你说，“不，我现在正在做专注的工作，请稍后再回来，”你让不经常被打扰是可以接受的。

You're making it okay culturally appropriate to work without distractions.

你让不受干扰的工作在文化上变得合适。

So, those are just some ways that you can hack back those external triggers.

因此，这些只是您可以破解这些外部触发器的一些方法。

Lenny: I love that crown idea.

莱尼：我喜欢那个皇冠的主意。

I think a lot of people are going to use that.

我想很多人都会使用它。

This time of year is prime for career reflection and setting goals for professional growth.

每年的这个时候是职业反思和设定职业发展目标的黄金时间。

I always like to spend this time reflecting on what I accomplished the previous year, what I hope to accomplish the next year, and whether this is the year, I look for a new opportunity.

我总是喜欢用这段时间反思我去年完成的事情，明年我希望完成的事情，以及今年是否是我寻找新的机会。

That's where today's sponsor, Teal comes in.

这就是今天的赞助商青色登场的地方。

Teal provides you with the tools to run an amazing job search.

Teal 为您提供了出色的求职工具。

With an AI-powered resume builder, job tracker, cover letter generator, and Chrome extension that integrates with over 40 job boards, Teal is the all-in-one platform you need to run a more streamlined and efficient job search and stand out in this competitive market.

Teal 拥有人工智能驱动的简历生成器、职位跟踪器、求职信生成器以及与 40 多个职位委员会集成的 Chrome 扩展程序，是您运行更精简、更高效的职位搜索并在这个竞争激烈的市场中脱颖而出所需的一体化平台。

There's a reason nearly 1 million people have trusted Teal to run their job search.

近 100 万人信任 Teal 来进行求职是有原因的。

If you're thinking of making a change in the new year, leverage Teal to grow your career on your own terms.

如果您想在新的一年做出改变，请利用青色按照自己的方式发展您的职业生涯。

Get started for free at tealhq.com/lenny.

请访问 tealhq.com/lenny 免费开始使用。

That's teal hq.com/lenny.

这是青色的 hq.com/lenny。

Lenny: For avoiding distractions, triggers, pushes, all that stuff, is there any tools you recommend?

Lenny：为了避免分心、触发、推动等等，你有什么推荐的工具吗？

I imagine, this is a lot of people are thinking.

我想，这是很多人都在思考的。

Is there like a way to block Twitter?

有没有办法屏蔽 Twitter？

Nir Eyal: Yeah, absolutely.

Nir Eyal：是的，绝对如此。

So, that's a perfect lead-in to step number four.

所以，这是第四步的完美引导。

So, we talked about step one, master internal triggers, make time for traction, hack back the external triggers.

所以，我们讨论了第一步，掌握内部触发因素，腾出时间来牵引，破解外部触发因素。

We just talked about step number three.

我们刚刚讨论了第三步。

Step number four is preventing distraction with pacts.

第四步是通过契约防止分心。

So with pacts, there's three kinds of pacts.

所以对于契约来说，共有三种契约。

We have a price pact, where there's some kind of financial disincentive to go off track.

我们有一个价格协议，其中有某种财务抑制措施来阻止偏离轨道。

So, this is where we talked about earlier.

所以，这就是我们之前谈到的地方。

You're making some kind of bet.

你正在打赌。

We could talk about how I got into shape for the first time in my life using something like this.

我们可以谈论我有生以来第一次使用这样的东西来塑造身材。

How I finished the book using something like this.

我是如何使用这样的东西完成这本书的。

That's a price pact.

这是一个价格协议。

There's an identity pact, which is very, very impactful, which is what you're doing is you're forming a personal identity.

有一个身份契约，这是非常非常有影响力的，这就是你正在做的事情，你正在形成一个个人身份。

So, this comes out of the psychology of religion where we know that people who call themselves a certain moniker.

所以，这来自于宗教心理学，我们知道那些自称为某个绰号的人。

For example, if you say you're a devout Muslim, you're not debating whether you should have a gin and tonic because devout Muslims don't drink.

例如，如果您说您是一名虔诚的穆斯林，那么您并不是在争论是否应该喝杜松子酒和滋补品，因为虔诚的穆斯林不喝酒。

Nir Eyal: If you say I'm a vegan or vegetarian, a vegetarian doesn't wake up in the morning and say, "Hmm, I wonder if I should have a bacon sandwich for breakfast." No, they are vegetarian.

Nir Eyal：如果你说我是素食主义者或素食主义者，素食主义者不会在早上醒来说：“嗯，我想知道我早餐是否应该吃培根三明治。”不，他们是素食主义者。

That is who they are.

他们就是这样的人。

So, that's why the book is called Indistractable.

所以，这就是为什么这本书被称为《不可分心》。

Indistractable Is meant to sound like indestructible.

Indistractable 听起来像是坚不可摧的。

It is your identity, it is who you are.

这是你的身份，这就是你是谁。

And so, is it any different for someone to say, "You know what?

因此，如果有人说：“你知道吗？

I'm sorry I don't check every ping and ding every 30 seconds.

抱歉，我没有每 30 秒检查一次 ping 和 ding。

I'm Indistractable.

我是专心致志的。

Or, "You know what?

或者，“你知道吗？

If we're going to have a meal together, if we're going to sit down and have lunch together, I want to have that lunch free of distractions.

如果我们要一起吃顿饭，如果我们要坐下来一起吃午餐，我希望不受干扰地享用午餐。

So, can we put away our phones?" Is that any different from someone who says, "I have particular dietary preferences," or, "I have a particular religious garb?"

那么，我们可以把手机收起来吗？”这与有人说“我有特定的饮食偏好”或“我有特定的宗教服装”有什么不同吗？

Nir Eyal: No, maybe it's not the norm.

Nir Eyal：不，也许这不是常态。

Maybe it's a minority of people who do that.

也许这样做的人只是少数。

But that's what I think it's going to take for the world to become indistractable, is that more of us show how great of a life we can have when we have some of these principles and make it part of our identity.

但我认为，要让世界变得不分心，就需要我们更多的人展示，当我们拥有这些原则并使其成为我们身份的一部分时，我们可以拥有多么美好的生活。

And then the third pact is what's called an effort pact.

第三个契约就是所谓的努力契约。

And this gets into your question around what kind of tools we can use.

这就涉及到我们可以使用什么样的工具的问题。

An effort pact is where there's some kind of friction, some kind of effort that you need to take in order to get distracted.

努力契约是指存在某种摩擦，需要付出某种努力才能分散注意力。

So, as the last line of defense, that's why this is the fourth step, the last line of defense, the firewall against distraction is making sure that you keep yourself in just as much as we keep distractions out.

因此，作为最后一道防线，这就是为什么这是第四步，最后一道防线，防止分心的防火墙是确保您保持自己的状态，就像我们将分心排除在外一样。

So, I'll give you a personal story here.

所以，我在这里给你讲一个个人故事。

I don't don't know if this is a family show.

不知道这算不算家庭剧。

Is it okay if I talk about my sex life a little bit?

我可以谈谈我的性生活吗？

Lenny: Absolutely.

莱尼：当然。

Let's talk and get into it.

让我们谈谈并开始吧。

Nir Eyal: It's not as exciting as it might sound.

Nir Eyal：这并不像听起来那么令人兴奋。

I've been married for twenty-two years now.

我已经结婚二十二年了。

My wife and I found that we weren't being as intimate as we used to be.

我和妻子发现我们不再像以前那么亲密了。

And this was when I first started writing the book.

这是我第一次开始写这本书的时候。

And part of the problem was that every night, we would go to bed and she would be fondling her iPhone and I would be caressing my iPad.

部分问题在于，每天晚上，我们上床睡觉时，她会抚摸她的 iPhone，而我会抚摸我的 iPad。

And we weren't being intimate because we were busy playing with our devices as opposed to each other.

我们并不亲密，因为我们忙于玩我们的设备而不是彼此。

And so, I started doing this research around Indistractable and I learned about this technique around making an effort pact.

因此，我开始围绕《Indistractable》进行这项研究，并了解了这种围绕制定努力契约的技术。

And so, what we did, I went to the hardware store and I bought us this $10 outlet timer and this outlet timer, anything you plug into it will turn on or off at a particular time of day or night, whatever you set.

所以，我们所做的，我去了五金店，给我们买了这个 10 美元的插座定时器和这个插座定时器，你插入它的任何东西都会在白天或晚上的特定时间打开或关闭，无论你设置什么。

Nir Eyal: And so, in my household, until this very day, every night at 10:00 P.M., my internet router shuts off.

Nir Eyal：因此，在我家里，直到今天，每天晚上 10:00，我的互联网路由器都会关闭。

So, what does that do?

那么，那有什么作用呢？

We know that every night, 10:00 P.M., the internet router's going to shut off.

我们知道每天晚上 10:00，互联网路由器都会关闭。

So, my daughter knows, my wife knows, I know.

所以，我女儿知道，我妻子知道，我知道。

I got to get everything done that I need to do online because the internet's going to shut off.

我必须在网上完成所有需要做的事情，因为互联网即将关闭。

Now, could I turn the internet back on?

现在，我可以重新打开互联网吗？

Of course, I could.

当然，我可以。

I could tether, I could go pull out the router and replug it in, but that takes effort.

我可以系绳，我可以拔出路由器并重新插入，但这需要努力。

And so, what I've done is if all else fails, if the internal triggers, making time for traction, hacking back, if all else fails, I've inserted a bit of mindfulness in something that I used to be mindless about.

所以，我所做的就是，如果其他一切都失败了，如果内部触发，腾出时间牵引，反击，如果其他一切都失败了，我在一些我曾经不关心的事情上插入了一点正念。

Now, I have to ask myself, "Wait a minute.

现在，我必须问自己：“等一下。

Do I really need to go all that trouble of replugging and unplugging my router or should I do what I said I was going to do, which is get to bed on time and maybe be intimate with my wife?"

我真的需要费尽心思重新插拔路由器吗？还是应该按照我说的去做，即按时上床睡觉，也许与我的妻子保持亲密关系？”

Nir Eyal: It's made a world of difference and I'll tell you honestly, Lenny.

Nir Eyal：这让世界变得不同，我会诚实地告诉你，Lenny。

Now after a few years of doing this, it's become part of our routine.

现在，经过几年的实践，它已成为我们日常工作的一部分。

We all know bedtime's at 10:00 P.M.

我们都知道晚上 10:00 是睡觉时间。

That's when we need to start getting ready for bed.

那是我们需要开始准备睡觉的时候。

The internet router's going to shut off.

互联网路由器将关闭。

We actually don't even need this anymore because it's become part of our routine.

实际上我们甚至不再需要它了，因为它已经成为我们日常生活的一部分。

So, that's one very cheap tool anyone can use as part of this effort pact.

因此，这是一个非常便宜的工具，任何人都可以使用它作为这项努力协议的一部分。

Another thing that I use almost every day, my daughter uses it as well, is this wonderful app called Forest.

我几乎每天都使用的另一件事是这个名为 Forest 的精彩应用程序，我的女儿也使用它。

Do you know Forest?

你知道森林吗？

Nir Eyal: It's awesome.

尼尔·埃亚尔：太棒了。

So, here's the way Forest works.

所以，这就是 Forest 的工作方式。

So, it's this cute little app here.

所以，这就是这个可爱的小应用程序。

I can show it to you.

我可以给你看。

I'll pull it up.

我会把它拉起来。

And the way Forest works is when you say you're going to do focused work time, you plug in how much work time you want.

Forest 的工作方式是，当你说你要集中工作时间时，你就输入你想要多少工作时间。

So, let's say I'm going to do 40 minutes of focused work time.

那么，假设我要进行 40 分钟的专注工作时间。

There's that cute little virtual tree that's planted on my screen as soon as I hit go and if I pick up my phone and I do anything with it, that cute little virtual tree gets cut down.

当我按下“开始”按钮时，那棵可爱的虚拟小树就会被种植在我的屏幕上，如果我拿起手机并用它做任何事情，那棵可爱的虚拟小树就会被砍倒。

It's just a small reminder to say, "Yep, that's not what you said you were going to do right now.

这只是一个小小的提醒，让你说：“是的，这不是你说你现在要做的事。

You said you were going to work with that distraction.

你说过你会带着这种干扰去工作。

Here, you are picking up your phone." It reminds you, this is not what you said you were going to do.

在这里，你正在拿起你的电话。”它提醒你，这不是你所说的要做的事情。

So, it inserts that bit of friction, that bit of effort.

所以，它插入了一点摩擦，一点努力。

Another, you asked for more tools.

另外，您要求更多工具。

Another product I love is called Focusmate.

我喜欢的另一个产品是 Focusmate。

Have you tried Focusmate?

Have you tried Focusmate?

Lenny: Is that the one where they match you with somebody and you're kind of working, watching each other work?

莱尼：他们会为你匹配一个人，然后你就一边工作一边看着对方工作吗？

Nir Eyal: Yes, exactly.

Nir Eyal：是的，完全正确。

It's like a chat roulette without the dirty bits.

这就像没有肮脏部分的聊天轮盘赌。

So, I love this company so much, I actually invested in it.

所以，我非常喜欢这家公司，我真的投资了它。

So basically, what you do is you go online, you look at this calendar and you pick a time when you want to do focused work.

所以基本上，你要做的就是上网，查看日历，然后选择你想要集中工作的时间。

So, one of my issues used to be getting started.

So, one of my issues used to be getting started.

Once I got started, I was good, but getting started 8:00 A.M., I kind of like what you were saying with this cold start problem.

一旦开始，我就很好，但是从早上 8:00 开始，我有点喜欢你所说的冷启动问题。

So, what it does is it gives you this pact, again, this pre-commitment you're making with another person, "Okay, 8:00 A.M., I'm going to be there.

所以，它的作用是再次给你这个契约，这个你与另一个人做出的预先承诺，“好吧，早上 8:00，我会去那里。

And if you don't show up, you're going to get a bad review." So, it binds you to another person to build this effort pact to say, "I will be here at that time." You say, "Okay, what are you working on?

如果你不出现，你就会得到不好的评价。”因此，它将你与另一个人联系起来，建立这个努力契约，并说：“那时我会在这里。” You say, "Okay, what are you working on?

What am I working on?

我在做什么？

All right, go." And for that entire time box, you work without distraction.

好吧，走吧。”在整个时间段内，您可以心无旁骛地工作。

And just seeing that other person who's also working without distraction is a wonderful way to bind you into what you said you were going to do.

看到其他人也在心无旁骛地工作，这是一种很好的方式，可以让你专注于你所说的要做的事情。

Nir Eyal: So, those are just a few tools.

Nir Eyal: So, those are just a few tools.

There's many, many others.

There's many, many others.

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

Okay, so let me actually try to just list out all the things you've shared so far and it's going to be across all the four steps and then I'm going to follow up on a couple things here.

好吧，让我实际上尝试列出到目前为止您分享的所有内容，它将涵盖所有四个步骤，然后我将在这里跟进一些事情。

So, here's my notes.

所以，这是我的笔记。

One is this idea of just set a ten-minute timer and just tell yourself, "I am going to work on something that I really want to work on right now for 10 minutes and that's all I'm going to do." And while you're doing that, surf the urge, you're going to feel like you don't, but just surf it and feel it and be aware that this is difficult.

其中一个想法就是设定一个十分钟的计时器，然后告诉自己，“我要花 10 分钟做一些我现在真正想做的事情，这就是我要做的全部事情。”当你这样做的时候，冲浪的冲动，你会感觉自己没有，但只是冲浪并感受它，并意识到这很困难。

The calendaring of your day, that feels like a fundamental part of your approach is just figure out what you want to do during the day.

一天的日历，感觉就像你的方法的基本部分就是弄清楚你一天想做什么。

Ahead of time, put it on the calendar.

Ahead of time, put it on the calendar.

So, your to-do list is your calendar, essentially.

所以，你的待办事项清单本质上就是你的日历。

Lenny: There's this whole idea of pacts.

Lenny: There's this whole idea of pacts.

You shared a bunch of different pact ideas, there's like I'll pay you a lot of money if I don't do this.

你分享了一堆不同的协议想法，如果我不这样做，我就会付给你很多钱。

There's this Wi-Fi.

有这个无线网络。

Okay.

好的。

And then I guess that translates into some of these other things.

然后我想这会转化为其他一些事情。

The Wi-Fi killer device, the Forest app, the Focusmate app and product.

Wi-Fi 杀手级设备、Forest 应用程序、Focusmate 应用程序和产品。

And then there's a few other things you shared.

And then there's a few other things you shared.

Just do not disturb, like set a timer so that during the day, you have do-not-disturb on during set times.

只是请勿打扰，例如设置一个计时器，以便在白天，您可以在设定的时间内开启请勿打扰。

For you, it's all the time, which I try to do, too.

对你来说，这一直都是，我也尝试这样做。

And then obviously, let your wife through important contacts and then make your family aware of when you're going to be working so that they know not to bother you.

当然，让你的妻子进行重要的联系，然后让你的家人知道你什么时候要工作，这样他们就知道不要打扰你。

Maybe this concentration crown.

Maybe this concentration crown.

Lenny: Okay.

莱尼：好的。

Before we move on to a different topic, I'd love to spend a little more time in that first bucket because it feels like your point is so important that most of our distraction is this emotional regulation and we just don't like discomfort.

在我们转向不同的主题之前，我想在第一个主题上多花一点时间，因为感觉你的观点非常重要，以至于我们大部分的分心都是这种情绪调节，而我们只是不喜欢不适。

And so, I'm curious what else you could teach me and teach people about getting better at managing that emotion.

所以，我很好奇你还能教我什么，教人们如何更好地管理这种情绪。

Are there any other tactics in that bucket that might be useful?

该桶中还有其他可能有用的策略吗？

Nir Eyal: Absolutely.

尼尔·埃亚尔：当然。

So, there's three big buckets in terms of mastering these internal triggers.

因此，掌握这些内部触发因素分为三大类。

We can reimagine the task, reimagine the trigger, and reimagine our temperament.

我们可以重新想象任务，重新想象触发点，并重新想象我们的气质。

And so, maybe I can give you one big tip I think that I discovered when it came to reimagining our temperament.

And so, maybe I can give you one big tip I think that I discovered when it came to reimagining our temperament.

If we think about our temperament as these immutable qualities, as the attributes of our personality, we have to be very careful about what kind of identity and what kind of limitations we let in to our psyche.

如果我们将我们的气质视为这些不可改变的品质，视为我们个性的属性，我们就必须非常小心我们的心灵接受了什么样的身份和什么样的限制。

And I'll give you a good example of this.

And I'll give you a good example of this.

So, a few years ago, there was this line of research around what's called ego depletion.

因此，几年前，出现了一系列关于所谓“自我损耗”的研究。

Ego depletion is this idea that willpower is a depletable resource.

自我损耗是指意志力是一种可耗尽的资源。

And you saw some researchers doing studies that seem to suggest that willpower was something that you run out of, that for me, I would come home after a long day of work and I'd say, "Oh, I'm out of willpower.

你看到一些研究人员所做的研究似乎表明意志力是一种你会耗尽的东西，对我来说，我会在结束一整天的工作后回到家，我会说，“哦，我的意志力已经耗尽了。

I'm 'spent', there's nothing else I can do.

I'm 'spent', there's nothing else I can do.

Give me that pint of Ben and Jerry's.

Give me that pint of Ben and Jerry's.

I'm going to sit in front of the TV because I'm spent.

我要坐在电视机前，因为我已经精疲力尽了。

There's no more willpower left."

There's no more willpower left."

Nir Eyal: And some of these studies seem to suggest there was this phenomenon except the problem became that in the social sciences when something sounds a little fishy, when it sounds too good to be true, the scientific process dictates that we should rerun those studies.

Nir Eyal：其中一些研究似乎表明存在这种现象，只不过问题在于，在社会科学中，当某些事情听起来有点可疑，当它听起来好得令人难以置信时，科学过程表明我们应该重新进行这些研究。

And it turns out that these studies around ego depletion could not replicate.

事实证明，这些关于自我损耗的研究无法复制。

We couldn't find the effect.

We couldn't find the effect.

And so, there was one exception to this and that exception was in a study done by Carol Dweck, she's one of my research heroes.

因此，有一个例外，这个例外是卡罗尔·德韦克（Carol Dweck）所做的一项研究，她是我的研究英雄之一。

She wrote the book Mindset, you're probably familiar with, and she did a fascinating study where she found that ego depletion does actually exist, but only for one group of people.

她写了《心态》一书，你可能很熟悉，她做了一项有趣的研究，发现自我损耗确实存在，但只针对一组人。

Nir Eyal: Who was that group of people?

Nir Eyal: Who was that group of people?

It turns out that the only people who really did run out of willpower the way you would run out of charge in a battery were people who believed that willpower was a limited resource.

事实证明，唯一真正像电池耗尽一样耗尽意志力的人是那些相信意志力是有限资源的人。

And so, this is super, super important to not let ourselves be influenced by these ridiculous notions, these beliefs that somehow we are impaired, that we are limited, that we're addicted.

因此，这是非常非常重要的，不要让自己受到这些荒谬观念的影响，这些观念认为我们在某种程度上受到了损害，我们受到限制，我们上瘾了。

That's a really popular one, that we're all addicted, we're all unable to control these behaviors.

这是一个非常流行的说法，我们都上瘾了，我们都无法控制这些行为。

That is not true.

那不是真的。

And in fact, it's only true if you believe it is true.

And in fact, it's only true if you believe it is true.

So, it should be part of our practice to tell ourselves we are indistractable.

So, it should be part of our practice to tell ourselves we are indistractable.

Indistractable is meant to sound like indestructible.

Indistractable is meant to sound like indestructible.

It's meant to sound like a superpower.

It's meant to sound like a superpower.

So, repeating to yourself that you're not limited, it's just about your actions.

所以，对自己重复一遍，你不受限制，这只是关于你的行动。

It's not a moral failing.

It's not a moral failing.

It's not something wrong with you.

It's not something wrong with you.

It's not that technologies are doing it to you.

It's not that technologies are doing it to you.

It's simply a series of behaviors that we have to practice.

It's simply a series of behaviors that we have to practice.

Lenny: I really like that.

莱尼：我真的很喜欢这样。

That's a theme that comes up a lot on this podcast is people that feel like they're responsible for their situation, they didn't cause it, but they're still responsible.

这个播客中经常出现的一个主题是，人们觉得自己对自己的处境负责，他们没有造成这种情况，但他们仍然有责任。

It is their responsibility to deal with it, end up being more successful.

他们有责任解决这个问题，最终取得更大的成功。

And there's this idea of just being high agency.

And there's this idea of just being high agency.

Nir Eyal: So, one of the things that I think is important to remember here is that there's a lot of things that the individual can do.

Nir Eyal: So, one of the things that I think is important to remember here is that there's a lot of things that the individual can do.

I think there's a lot of things that we can do within a company or an organization, as well, that we can make our workplace indestructible.

I think there's a lot of things that we can do within a company or an organization, as well, that we can make our workplace indestructible.

But then I think there's some things that we can do on a societal level, and these are called social antibodies.

但我认为我们可以在社会层面上做一些事情，这些被称为社会抗体。

That social antibodies are when society spreads norms or manners that help us overcome otherwise antisocial or destructive behaviors.

That social antibodies are when society spreads norms or manners that help us overcome otherwise antisocial or destructive behaviors.

And so, the good news is that we have been here before with something far more harmful and far more addictive than social media or technology distractions.

因此，好消息是，我们以前遇到过比社交媒体或技术干扰更有害、更容易上瘾的东西。

If you think back to the 1980s, I was a child of the '80s.

If you think back to the 1980s, I was a child of the '80s.

I remember the '80s very well, and I remember when I was growing up, we had ashtrays in our living room.

I remember the '80s very well, and I remember when I was growing up, we had ashtrays in our living room.

Nir Eyal: In fact, everyone I knew had ashtrays in their living room.

Nir Eyal: In fact, everyone I knew had ashtrays in their living room.

And today, that sounds crazy.

And today, that sounds crazy.

You couldn't imagine walking into someone's home and lighting up a cigarette.

You couldn't imagine walking into someone's home and lighting up a cigarette.

If someone did that to you, that would be crazy.

If someone did that to you, that would be crazy.

No one would do that today.

No one would do that today.

Well, why?

嗯，为什么？

Why did that happen?

为什么会发生这种事？

Why would it be so incredibly rude to just walk into someone's home and light up a cigarette?

Why would it be so incredibly rude to just walk into someone's home and light up a cigarette?

Well, because there wasn't a law that said that that was illegal, someone's private residence.

Well, because there wasn't a law that said that that was illegal, someone's private residence.

What changed was that we have new norms, new manners around how to behave when it comes to these destructive behaviors.

What changed was that we have new norms, new manners around how to behave when it comes to these destructive behaviors.

So, I remember when my mom took away those ashtrays in our living room and she threw them away, and one day, one of her friends came over and took out a pact of cigarettes and was about to light a cigarette.

所以，我记得当我妈妈把客厅里的烟灰缸拿走并扔掉的时候，有一天，她的一个朋友走过来，拿出一包香烟，正准备点一根烟。

My mom said, "No, no, no, no, I'm sorry.

My mom said, "No, no, no, no, I'm sorry.

We are nonsmokers."

我们是不吸烟者。”

Nir Eyal: You see, she had this now and that she used to describe herself.

Nir Eyal：你看，她现在有这个，她曾经这样描述自己。

She described herself as a nonsmoker.

She described herself as a nonsmoker.

If you'd like to smoke, if you'd kindly go outside.

如果您想抽烟，请您出去一下。

And of course, that's the norm today.

当然，这已成为当今的常态。

But it took great people like my mom to go against the trend for these antisocial behaviors.

但像我妈妈这样的伟大人物才反对这些反社会行为的潮流。

So, I think the same thing is going to happen when it comes to becoming indistractable.

So, I think the same thing is going to happen when it comes to becoming indistractable.

Frankly, with or without my book, my book was intended to accelerate this process, but we're going to do this naturally because what humans do throughout history when it comes to figuring out how to use a technology well is that we adapt and we adopt.

坦率地说，无论有没有我的书，我的书都旨在加速这一过程，但我们会自然地做到这一点，因为人类在整个历史上在弄清楚如何很好地使用技术时所做的就是我们适应和采用。

We adapt to the technology by forming new behaviors, new norms.

我们通过形成新的行为、新的规范来适应技术。

So, just like my mom said, "Hey, we are nonsmokers.

所以，就像我妈妈说的：“嘿，我们不吸烟。

That's my identity.

这就是我的身份。

I'm a nonsmoker.

我是一个不吸烟者。

If you'd like to smoke, you're going to have to go outside."

如果你想抽烟，就必须到外面去。”

Nir Eyal: We need to be comfortable with saying, "Hey, we are indistractable." If someone sits down with you across the table and you're having a nice conversation, they take out their funny, say, "Hey, hey, if we're going to have a conversation, let's be here both in body and mind." That means putting these devices outside of meetings.

Nir Eyal：我们需要坦然地说：“嘿，我们不会分心。”如果有人和你坐在桌子对面，你们正在进行愉快的谈话，他们就会拿出他们的幽默，说：“嘿，嘿，如果我们要谈话，让我们在身体和精神上都在这里。”这意味着将这些设备放在会议之外。

If we're going to have a business meeting or a personal meeting, we're going to declare these no-phone zones because that's who we are.

如果我们要举行商务会议或个人会议，我们将宣布这些无电话区，因为我们就是这样。

We want to be indistractable.

我们想要不分心。

So, we adopt these new behaviors and we see that happening already.

因此，我们采用了这些新行为，并且我们看到这种情况已经发生。

And then we adapt to these behaviors, I should say, with these new norms.

然后我应该说，我们用这些新规范来适应这些行为。

And then we adopt new technologies that help us fight the bad aspects of the last generation of technology, and that's what we have always done.

然后我们采用新技术来帮助我们对抗上一代技术的缺点，这就是我们一直在做的事情。

Nir Eyal: In fact, right now, there's an explosion of tech companies that are making a lot of money.

Nir Eyal：事实上，现在科技公司数量激增，赚了很多钱。

A lot of these apps and startups are making money with tools to help fix the last generation of technology.

许多此类应用程序和初创公司都通过帮助修复上一代技术的工具来赚钱。

And so, there's all kinds of tools listed in my book from Forest and Focusmate, all kinds of tools that can help us put technology in its place, ironically enough, with new and better technology.

因此，我的书中列出了来自 Forest 和 Focusmate 的各种工具，这些工具可以帮助我们用新的、更好的技术来取代技术。

Lenny: You've touched on this point that I want to come back to around how you're not as confident that we're as addicted to technology and apps as we think, and I think that's really important.

莱尼：你已经谈到了这一点，我想回到你如何不相信我们像我们想象的那样沉迷于技术和应用程序，我认为这非常重要。

I'm excited to chat about it.

我很高兴能谈论它。

Before we get there, I wanted to chat and follow this thread essentially of becoming Indistractable at work and building a company essentially that helps your teammates become less distractable.

在我们到达那里之前，我想聊聊并遵循这个主题，本质上是在工作中变得不分心，并建立一家本质上帮助你的队友变得不那么分心的公司。

What advice would you give to leaders at companies to help employees at the company have better focus, essentially?

您会给公司领导者什么建议，以帮助公司员工更好地集中精力？

Nir Eyal: A lot of folks that I've worked with in the past have said, "Look, I can become indistractable.

Nir Eyal：很多我过去共事过的人都说过，“看，我可以变得不分心。

I follow these four steps, fantastic.

我遵循这四个步骤，太棒了。

I'm indistractable.

我心不在焉。

But what if my company's not indistractable?

但如果我的公司不让人分心怎么办？

How do I help other people become indistractable?

我如何帮助其他人变得不分心？

Or what if my boss is not indistractable and they're constantly asking me and pinging and dinging me for stuff and I'm not able to do my best work?

或者，如果我的老板并不专心，他们不断地向我询问，向我询问一些事情，而我却无法尽我最大的努力，该怎么办？

So, what do I do about that?" So, there's a whole section in the book on how to build an indistractable workplace.

那么，我该怎么办呢？”因此，书中有一整节内容是关于如何建立一个不受干扰的工作场所。

And what I discovered was in the research in writing this book is that indistractable companies have three traits.

在撰写本书的研究中，我发现注意力不集中的公司具有三个特征。

And so, the first trait is that Indistractable companies provide employees with what's called psychological safety.

所以，第一个特点是，Indistractable公司为员工提供了所谓的心理安全感。

This comes out of the research from Amy Edmondson at the Harvard Business School.

这是哈佛商学院艾米·埃德蒙森的研究得出的结论。

And what she discovered was truly that companies have to provide employees with psychological safety.

而她真正发现的是，企业必须为员工提供心理安全感。

Nir Eyal: Meaning, if you can't talk about a problem, if you can't raise your hand and say, "Hey, you know what?

Nir Eyal：意思是，如果你不能谈论问题，如果你不能举手说：“嘿，你知道吗？

I'm just not able to do my best work when I'm constantly expected to reply to every email, to every notification, every 30 seconds.

当我不断地被要求每 30 秒回复每封电子邮件、每条通知时，我就无法做到最好的工作。

I can't do my best work." If you can't talk about this problem, that is the problem.

我无法尽我最大的努力。”如果你不能谈论这个问题，那就是问题。

As I like to say, distraction is a symptom of dysfunction.

正如我想说的，分心是功能障碍的症状。

Distraction is a symptom of dysfunction.

分心是功能障碍的症状。

And when it comes to the workplace, if you don't give employees that psychological safety to say, "Hey, how do we deal with this problem just like any other problem?" That in fact is a problem.

当谈到工作场所时，如果你不给员工心理安全感，让他们说：“嘿，我们如何像处理其他问题一样处理这个问题？”这其实是一个问题。

It's not the technology, it's the fact that you can't get together and talk about this problem without fear of somebody thinking, "Oh, you're lazy," or, "You don't want to be on call," or, "You're expecting other people to work for you."

这不是技术问题，而是事实，你不能聚在一起讨论这个问题，而不担心有人会想，“哦，你很懒”，或者“你不想随叫随到”，或者“你期待其他人为你工作”。

Nir Eyal: No, that's not the issue at all.

Nir Eyal：不，这根本不是问题。

It's simply that we need to formulate how to fix this problem just like any other business challenge.

只是我们需要像解决任何其他业务挑战一样制定如何解决这个问题。

The second trait is employees need a forum to talk about this problem.

第二个特点是员工需要一个论坛来讨论这个问题。

So, in researching this book, I ask people, what's the most distracting technology?

因此，在研究这本书时，我问人们，最让人分心的技术是什么？

What technology in the workplace do you find to be most distracting?

您认为工作场所中的哪些技术最容易分散您的注意力？

The number two was some kind of group messaging service, and Slack was mentioned the most number of times.

位居第二的是某种群组消息服务，而 Slack 被提及的次数最多。

By the way, number one was email.

顺便说一句，排名第一的是电子邮件。

Number two was some kind of group messaging platform, and Slack was mentioned the most often.

第二个是某种群组消息平台，其中最常提到的是 Slack。

And so, I went to visit Slack headquarters.

于是，我就去参观了Slack总部。

I went to go see my friend Amir, who used to work there at the time, and I knocked on the door and I expected to see a company that was incredibly distracted because if it was the technology that was the source of the problem, nobody uses Slack more than Slack.

我去见我的朋友阿米尔，他当时在那里工作，我敲了敲门，我预计会看到一家非常心烦意乱的公司，因为如果技术是问题的根源，那么没有人比 Slack 更多地使用 Slack。

Nir Eyal: They should be the most distracted company on earth.

Nir Eyal：他们应该是地球上最容易分心的公司。

But that's not what I found at all because Slack, in fact, embodied these three attributes.

但这根本不是我发现的，因为 Slack 事实上体现了这三个属性。

They gave people psychological safety.

他们给人们心理上的安全感。

They gave people a forum to talk about these problems.

他们为人们提供了一个讨论这些问题的论坛。

How did they do that?

他们是怎么做到的？

They actually created Slack channels at Slack.

他们实际上在 Slack 上创建了 Slack 频道。

They had one Slack channel called Beef Tweets, and Beef Tweets was a channel where people could talk about their beef with a company.

他们有一个名为 Beef Tweets 的 Slack 频道，Beef Tweets 是一个人们可以与公司谈论他们的牛肉的频道。

And it wasn't that necessarily management had to fix every problem.

管理层并不一定必须解决所有问题。

That's not the point.

这不是重点。

It's that they had to acknowledge that employee's voices were being heard.

他们必须承认员工的声音正在被听到。

And how did they do that?

他们是如何做到的？

Surprisingly enough, they did it with emoji.

令人惊讶的是，他们用表情符号做到了。

So, when a problem that an employee mentioned was fixed, they sent the green check mark emoji, but if it was a problem that maybe couldn't be fixed, but what they wanted to acknowledge that management had seen it, they would send the eyes emoji.

因此，当员工提到的问题得到解决时，他们会发送绿色复选标记表情符号，但如果这是一个可能无法解决的问题，但他们想承认管理层已经看到了它，他们会发送眼睛表情符号。

Nir Eyal: And so, the important thing here is to give employees some kind of forum.

Nir Eyal：因此，重要的是为员工提供某种论坛。

It could be a Slack channel, it could be another case study in the book is the Boston Consulting Group, which I used to work at.

它可能是一个 Slack 频道，也可能是书中的另一个案例研究，即我曾经工作过的波士顿咨询集团。

They've gone from one of the most distractable companies to today.

他们已经从最令人分心的公司之一发展到了今天。

They're ranked as one of the best places to work in America.

他们被评为美国最佳工作场所之一。

They have these meetings where they talk about PTO, predictable time off.

他们召开这些会议，讨论 PTO（可预测的休假时间）。

And so, they completely changed that organizational culture by following these steps, as well.

因此，他们也通过遵循这些步骤彻底改变了组织文化。

The last, the third attribute, which is the most important of the three, is that management must exemplify what it means to be indistractable because culture is like water.

最后，第三个属性，也是三个属性中最重要的一个，是管理必须体现出不分心的含义，因为文化就像水。

It flows downhill.

它流向下坡。

And so, people will look to management to see how they behave, and they will act in accordance with those expectations.

因此，人们会向管理层寻求帮助，看看他们的行为如何，而他们也会按照这些期望行事。

So, at Slack Company headquarters, in the company canteen, it says in bright pink letters, it says, "Work hard and go home."

所以，在Slack公司总部，在公司食堂，上面用亮粉色的字母写着，“努力工作，回家吧”。

Nir Eyal: Work hard and go home.

Nir Eyal：努力工作然后回家。

That is not something you would expect to see at a hard charging Silicon Valley startup, but that's what you see there because everybody in the company, this was before the acquisition.

这不是你期望在一家强势的硅谷初创公司中看到的东西，但这就是你在那里看到的，因为公司的每个人，这是在收购之前。

I don't know what it's like now, but when I wrote the book, this was certainly the case that everybody from Stewart Butterfield on down, the CEO on down, believed that to do people's best work, they had to work without distraction.

我不知道现在情况如何，但当我写这本书时，情况确实如此，从斯图尔特·巴特菲尔德（Stewart Butterfield）到下至首席执行官，每个人都相信，为了把工作做到最好，他们必须心无旁骛地工作。

So, if you use Slack on nights and weekends, you were told, "That's not what we do here." You were reprimanded because that was not part of the company culture.

所以，如果你在晚上和周末使用 Slack，你会被告知，“这不是我们在这里做的事情。”你受到谴责是因为这不符合公司文化。

So, it's really those three traits, psychological safety, a form to talk about these problems, and management has to exemplify what it means to be indistractable.

所以，这实际上是这三个特征，心理安全，谈论这些问题的一种形式，管理层必须举例说明什么是不分心。

Lenny: I want to move to a different topic, but before we do, is there one thing or maybe two things that a listener can do, say today or tomorrow or this week, that would make it significant dent on their ability to focus and avoid distraction?

莱尼：我想转移到另一个话题，但在我们这样做之前，听众是否可以做一件事或两件事，比如今天或明天或本周，这会显着削弱他们集中注意力和避免分心的能力？

Nir Eyal: I would say understanding these four steps of master the internal triggers, make time for traction, hack back the external triggers, and preventing distraction with pacts.

Nir Eyal：我想说的是，理解这四个步骤：掌握内部触发因素、为牵引腾出时间、破解外部触发因素以及通过契约防止分心。

If you can do one small thing in each of those four strategies, one small thing, that's a wonderful, wonderful first step.

如果你能在这四种策略中的每一种中做一件小事，一件小事，那就是非常非常好的第一步。

You don't have to do everything in the book.

你不必做书中的所有事情。

I'm giving you many of different options, but one small thing in each of those categories is huge.

我为您提供了许多不同的选择，但每个类别中的一件小事却是巨大的。

Now, when it comes to the workplace, one of the benefits of making a time box calendar is that you have a physical artifact.

现在，说到工作场所，制作时间盒日历的好处之一是您拥有一个物理工件。

You have something that you can print out and show to other people.

您有一些可以打印出来并向其他人展示的东西。

And so, I hear this a lot when it comes to people who say, "Okay, I'm indistractable but my boss isn't, what do I do?

因此，我经常听到有人说：“好吧，我很专心，但我的老板却不专心，我该怎么办？

I'm constantly ping and ding from my boss.

我不断收到老板的 ping 和 ding 消息。

How do I get control over my time?"

我怎样才能掌控自己的时间？”

Nir Eyal: Here's what you do.

Nir Eyal：这就是你要做的。

This is called schedule syncing or managing your manager.

这称为计划同步或管理您的经理。

Here's what happens.

事情是这样的。

You print out your calendar or you show it to them on your screen, and you say, "Hey boss, I need 10 minutes with you, Monday morning.

你打印出日历，或者在屏幕上向他们展示，然后说：“嘿，老板，周一早上，我需要 10 分钟时间和你在一起。

Is that okay?

可以吗？

Can I get 10 minutes with you?" And now, what you're going to do is you're going to show them your time box calendar for your working hours.

我可以陪你10分钟吗？”现在，您要做的就是向他们展示您的工作时间框日历。

You're going to say, "Okay, boss, you see here's my time for email.

你会说：“好吧，老板，你看，我现在是处理电子邮件的时间了。

Here's my time for that meeting you asked me to go to.

这是我参加你要我参加的会议的时间。

Here's time for that big project I'm working on.

现在是我正在进行的那个大项目的时间了。

Now, you see this other piece of paper?

现在，你看到另一张纸了吗？

Okay, you see this other list here?

好的，您看到这里的另一个列表了吗？

This is a list of things you've asked me to do that I'm having trouble fitting into my calendar." So, what I'm helping you do here is avoiding the worst piece of personal productivity advice.

这是你要求我做的事情的清单，但我无法将其纳入我的日历。”所以，我在这里帮助你做的是避免最糟糕的个人生产力建议。

Nir Eyal: The worst piece of personal productivity advice is if you want to be better at time management, you need to learn how to say no. What kind of stupid advice is that?

Nir Eyal：关于个人生产力的最糟糕的建议是，如果你想更好地管理时间，你需要学习如何说不。这是什么愚蠢的建议？

Only a tenured professor who can't get fired would give you that kind of stupid advice.

只有不会被解雇的终身教授才会给你那种愚蠢的建议。

If you tell your boss no, you're going to get fired, that's dumb.

如果你告诉老板不，你就会被解雇，这是愚蠢的。

You don't tell your boss no, you ask your boss to help you prioritize.

你不会告诉老板不，你会要求老板帮助你确定优先顺序。

That is your boss' most important job is to prioritize.

老板最重要的工作就是确定优先顺序。

So, you're not saying no. You're saying, "Here's my calendar.

所以，你并不是说不。你说：“这是我的日历。

Here's this list of stuff you've asked me to do.

这是你要求我做的事情的清单。

Help me prioritize." And here's what's going to happen.

帮我确定优先顺序。”这就是将要发生的事情。

Your boss is going to look at your calendar and say, "You know what?

你的老板会查看你的日历并说：“你知道吗？

That meeting, you really don't need to be at that meeting.

那个会议，你真的不需要参加那个会议。

But that thing on that piece of paper that you listed over here, that's way more important.

但你在这里列出的那张纸上的东西更重要。

Can you swap that out?"

可以换一下吗？”

Nir Eyal: And let me tell you, I've started three companies.

Nir Eyal：让我告诉你，我已经创办了三个公司。

I've sold two so far, and bosses, your manager will worship the ground you walk on because we're all wondering, "What is it that you're doing?" And I know we have to trust our employees, et cetera, et cetera.

到目前为止我已经卖掉了两个，老板们，你的经理会崇拜你走过的土地，因为我们都想知道，“你在做什么？”我知道我们必须信任我们的员工等等。

Yes.

是的。

But we're still wondering, "Hey, that thing that you said was going to be done isn't done.

但我们仍然想知道，“嘿，你说要做的事情并没有完成。

Why not?

为什么不呢？

How are you spending your time?" So, if you can proactively sit down with your boss so that they understand how you are spending your time, and again, this takes maybe 10 minutes, you do this schedule sync process that not only works really well in the workplace, it also works really well at home.

你如何度过你的时间？”因此，如果您可以主动与老板坐下来，让他们了解您如何度过时间，这可能需要 10 分钟，那么您执行的日程同步流程不仅在工作场所非常有效，在家里也非常有效。

So, my wife and I used to have conflicts over who's going to pick up our daughter, and why didn't you take out the trash?

所以，我和老婆以前经常因为谁来接女儿而发生矛盾，你为什么不倒垃圾呢？

And we would have these conflicts because we didn't synchronize our schedules.

我们会发生这些冲突，因为我们没有同步我们的日程安排。

Nir Eyal: Well, now, we take maybe five minutes a week.

Nir Eyal：嗯，现在，我们每周大约花五分钟。

Sunday evening, we sit down together.

周日晚上，我们坐在一起。

Let me look at your schedule.

让我看看你的日程安排。

Let me look at my schedule.

让我看看我的日程安排。

"Okay, now we're synchronized.

“好吧，现在我们同步了。

It's amazing." We prevent so many conflicts just by doing this simple schedule sync process.

太棒了。”我们仅通过执行这个简单的计划同步过程就可以防止如此多的冲突。

Lenny: I love that advice.

莱尼：我喜欢这个建议。

I recommend a very similar approach to people to align with their managers.

我建议人们采用非常类似的方法来与他们的经理保持一致。

Basically, I call it managing up.

基本上，我称之为向上管理。

And the way I describe it, manager taught me this is, I call it prioritizing and communicating.

经理教我的方式是，我称之为优先排序和沟通。

You could prioritize and not communicate, and your manager would be like, "What the hell?

你可以优先考虑而不沟通，你的经理会说，“到底是什么？

Why didn't you do this thing?" It's, "I prioritized.

你为什么不做这件事？”是的，“我优先考虑了。

I never told you.

我从来没有告诉过你。

Here's where I put it on my list." Or you could just communicate like, "No," and that doesn't work as you said.

这就是我把它列在我的清单上的地方。”或者你可以直接说“不”，但这并不像你说的那样有效。

The best combination is just like, "Here's what I'm doing, here's why I will prioritize this and let me know what you think.

最好的组合就像是，“这就是我正在做的事情，这就是为什么我会优先考虑这个，并让我知道你的想法。

Would you agree?

你同意吗？

You want to move it up?

你想把它移上去吗？

You want to move it down?"

你想把它移下来吗？”

Nir Eyal: Exactly.

尼尔·埃亚尔：没错。

And how much input.

以及投入多少。

We always talk about one of the reasons I hate to-do lists is because to-do lists are just a register of output.

我们总是谈论我讨厌待办事项列表的原因之一是因为待办事项列表只是输出的寄存器。

It's the stuff you want to have done, but you can't have output without input.

这是你想做的事情，但没有输入就不可能有输出。

If you go to a baker, let's say it's your kid's birthday party and say, "Hey, I want two dozen cupcakes." Well, the baker's going to say, "Okay, I need flour, I need sugar, I need butter.

如果你去面包店，假设这是你孩子的生日聚会，然后说：“嘿，我想要两打纸杯蛋糕。”好吧，面包师会说：“好吧，我需要面粉，我需要糖，我需要黄油。

I need all these inputs in order to make the output." But somehow when it comes to knowledge work, we just add more and more outputs without considering the input.

我需要所有这些输入才能产生输出。”但不知何故，当涉及知识工作时，我们只是添加越来越多的输出而不考虑输入。

What is the input for knowledge work?

知识工作的投入是什么？

It's only two things.

这只是两件事。

It's your time and your attention.

这是你的时间和你的注意力。

That's it.

就是这样。

Your time and your attention.

你的时间和你的注意力。

So, in order to get the output, we have to think about the input, which is why the schedule syncing and time boxing is so important.

因此，为了获得输出，我们必须考虑输入，这就是计划同步和时间盒如此重要的原因。

Again, that's something that a to-do list can never give you.

再说一次，这是待办事项列表永远无法给你的东西。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

Okay.

好的。

For our last topic, I wanted to spend some time on Hooked, which I think could be its own podcast.

对于我们的最后一个主题，我想花一些时间在 Hooked 上，我认为它可以成为它自己的播客。

That could be a whole other episode of your first book that did really well.

这可能是你第一本书中表现出色的另一集。

And essentially, this book, Hooked, is about teaching people how to get people hooked on their product.

从本质上讲，这本书《Hooked》是教人们如何让人们迷上他们的产品。

I know that you have this very contrarian perspective on, are we actually addicted to technology?

我知道你有一种非常逆向的观点，我们真的沉迷于技术吗？

Is it hurting mental health?

它是否损害心理健康？

All these things.

所有这些事情。

So, this is contrarian corner.

所以，这是逆向角。

I'd love to hear your perspective on just, why is it that we're not as hooked on social media and technology as people think?

我很想听听您的观点，为什么我们不像人们想象的那样沉迷于社交媒体和技术？

Nir Eyal: Yeah.

尼尔·埃亚尔：是的。

Okay, so there's a lot there.

好的，那里有很多东西。

So, let me explain what Hooked was for compared to Indistractable.

那么，让我解释一下 Hooked 与 Indistractable 的区别。

So, Hooked is about how do we build habit-forming products for good.

因此，《Hooked》是关于我们如何永久打造养成习惯的产品。

And so, the idea there was that I think we need to use more of these techniques when it comes to healthy behaviors.

因此，我认为在健康行为方面我们需要更多地使用这些技术。

We want people to get hooked to a language learning app.

我们希望人们迷上语言学习应用程序。

Duolingo, one of my former clients.

Duolingo，我以前的客户之一。

That's a great thing that they found ways to get people hooked to learning a new language compared to the way we used to learn languages.

与我们过去学习语言的方式相比，他们找到了让人们着迷于学习新语言的方法，这是一件很棒的事情。

Getting people hooked to exercise.

让人们爱上锻炼。

One of the case studies in Hooked is Fitbot, which is an app that helps people form these habits around exercise.

Hooked 的案例研究之一是 Fitbot，这是一款帮助人们养成锻炼习惯的应用程序。

Getting hooked to a personal finance app to help you save money, getting hooked to enterprise software.

迷上个人理财应用程序来帮助您省钱，迷上企业软件。

That's all great, right?

这一切都很棒，对吧？

If it helps you become more productive, helps you live a happier, healthier life, that's wonderful.

如果它能帮助你提高工作效率，帮助你过上更快乐、更健康的生活，那就太好了。

Nir Eyal: So, nobody's worried about people getting addicted to enterprise SaaS.

Nir Eyal：所以，没有人担心人们会对企业 SaaS 上瘾。

That's not an issue.

那不是问题。

So, the vast majority of products out there, they're not worried about addicting anyone.

因此，绝大多数产品并不担心会让任何人上瘾。

The real problem the vast majority of businesses out there have is that nobody cares.

绝大多数企业面临的真正问题是没人关心。

They have a wonderful product that could really improve people's lives, but people aren't using it.

他们有一个很棒的产品，可以真正改善人们的生活，但人们没有使用它。

And so, it's really about how do you get people to keep coming back to your product or service, not because they have to, but because they want to.

因此，这实际上是关于如何让人们继续使用你的产品或服务，不是因为他们必须这样做，而是因为他们想要这样做。

And so, what essentially I do at Hooked is steal the secrets of these Silicon Valley giants.

因此，我在 Hooked 所做的本质上就是窃取这些硅谷巨头的秘密。

I literally ripped out their psychology to understand what makes their products work so well, so that everybody in every conceivable industry that is devoted to improving people's lives can use those habits for good.

我确实剖析了他们的心理，以了解是什么让他们的产品如此有效，以便每个可以想象的致力于改善人们生活的行业中的每个人都可以利用这些习惯来做好事。

So, that's what Hooked is for.

这就是 Hooked 的用途。

So, if Hooked is about good habits, Indistractable is about how do we break bad habits, but for different products, we want to build a good habit with the exercise app, with these SaaS app, with the good habits, and we also want to break the bad habits.

所以，如果说 Hooked 是关于好习惯，那么 Indistractable 是关于我们如何改掉坏习惯，但是对于不同的产品，我们希望通过锻炼应用程序、通过这些 SaaS 应用程序、通过好习惯来养成好习惯，同时我们也希望改掉坏习惯。

Nir Eyal: So, that's the two sides of the same coin.

Nir Eyal：所以，这是同一枚硬币的两面。

They're not negations, they're complements.

它们不是否定，而是补充。

And I think I am uniquely qualified to write both these books because I know these techniques work and I know where they don't work.

我认为我非常有资格写这两本书，因为我知道这些技术有效，也知道它们在哪里不起作用。

And I can tell you, having written Hooked, these techniques are very good.

我可以告诉你，写完《Hooked》后，这些技巧都非常好。

They're very effective.

它们非常有效。

They're not that good.

他们没那么好。

This isn't mind control.

这不是精神控制。

We're not hijacking people's brains.

我们没有劫持人们的大脑。

And there's a lot of people out there, a lot of tech critics have made a lot of money and gotten a lot of speaking gigs over scaring the crap out of people because people love that stuff.

那里有很多人，很多技术评论家赚了很多钱，并通过吓唬人们获得了很多演讲机会，因为人们喜欢这些东西。

I was a journalism co-major in college, and the first rule of journalism is if it bleeds, it leads.

我在大学主修新闻学，新闻学的第一条规则是，如果它流血，它就会领先。

So, you can get a lot more attention and a lot more press, a lot more invites to Ted Talks if you tell people, "Technology is melting your brain, it's super evil.

因此，如果你告诉人们“科技正在融化你的大脑，它是超级邪恶的，你就能获得更多的关注、更多的媒体报道、更多的 Ted 演讲邀请。

Let's shut it all down."

让我们把这一切都关闭吧。”

Nir Eyal: This is the classic chicken little story.

Nir Eyal：这是经典的鸡小故事。

People love that stuff.

人们喜欢那些东西。

The truth is much more nuanced, but nobody likes nuance.

事实要微妙得多，但没有人喜欢细微差别。

Nobody likes the answer to every complex question, which is always the same.

没有人喜欢每个复杂问题的答案总是相同的。

"It depends.

“这要看情况。

It depends." For some people, overusing technology is a real problem.

这要看情况。”对于一些人来说，过度使用技术是一个真正的问题。

So, for people who are pathologically addicted, that can be very harmful because, what is the definition of addiction?

因此，对于病理性成瘾的人来说，这可能非常有害，因为成瘾的定义是什么？

An addiction is a compulsive dependency on a behavior or substance that harms the user.

成瘾是对伤害使用者的行为或物质的强迫性依赖。

Now, that's about 3% to 5% of the population is pathologically addicted, but we toss out this word addiction all the time.

现在，大约有 3% 到 5% 的人口患有病态成瘾，但我们一直在抛出“成瘾”这个词。

Everything's addictive.

一切都让人上瘾。

My wife ordered a shoes from DSW, and on the box it says, "Danger, addictive contents inside." It's shoes, people.

我的妻子从 DSW 订购了一双鞋子，盒子上写着：“危险，里面有令人上瘾的内容。”这是鞋子，朋友们。

Shoes.

鞋子。

And so, what we have done by pathologizing, by medicalizing this behavior is that now, everything's an addiction.

因此，我们通过将这种行为病态化、医学化，现在一切都是一种成瘾。

"Oh, you like playing Candy Crush?

“哦，你喜欢玩《糖果粉碎传奇》吗？

It's addictive.

这很容易上瘾。

You like social media.

你喜欢社交媒体。

It's addictive."

这很容易上瘾。”

Nir Eyal: No, it's not addictive to everyone.

Nir Eyal：不，并不是每个人都会上瘾。

No more than saying, "Hey, a lot of people have a glass of wine with dinner, but not everyone's an alcoholic.

无非是说，“嘿，很多人晚餐时都会喝一杯酒，但并不是每个人都是酒鬼。

So, why do we think everyone who uses social media is addicted?" They're not.

那么，为什么我们认为每个使用社交媒体的人都会上瘾呢？”他们没有。

But we love that terminology.

但我们喜欢这个术语。

We love it.

我们喜欢它。

Why?

为什么？

Because even the word addiction comes from the Latin addictio, which means slave.

因为就连“成瘾”这个词也来自拉丁语“addictio”，意思是“奴隶”。

So, it's much easier to tell ourselves, "I'm enslaved.

所以，告诉自己“我被奴役了”要容易得多。

My brain is being hijacked.

我的大脑被劫持了。

My focus is being stolen.

我的注意力被偷走了。

It's all Silicon Valley's fault." As opposed to saying, "Wait a minute, this isn't really a distraction." I'm sorry.

这都是硅谷的错。”而不是说，“等一下，这并不是真正的干扰。”我很抱歉。

"It's not really an addiction, it's a distraction," because then now I have personal responsibility.

“这并不是真正的上瘾，而是一种干扰，”因为现在我有个人责任了。

Now, I have to do something about it.

现在，我必须为此做点什么。

That's no fun.

那没什么好玩的。

Can I just blame somebody?

我可以责怪某人吗？

But for the vast majority of people, save the people who are actually pathologically addicted, which by the way, I do think we need special protections for.

但对于绝大多数人来说，除了那些实际上患有病态成瘾的人之外，顺便说一句，我确实认为我们需要对此进行特殊保护。

If you're not a child who I do think we need special protections for, and you're not pathologically addicted, this is a personal responsibility issue that thankfully, all of us can overcome if we have the right tools.

如果你不是我认为我们需要特殊保护的孩子，并且你没有病态上瘾，那么这是一个个人责任问题，值得庆幸的是，如果我们有合适的工具，我们所有人都可以克服。

Lenny: Wow, this is quite the contrarian juicy corner.

莱尼：哇，这真是一个逆势而多汁的角落。

I wish we had more time to dig into all this stuff.

我希望我们有更多的时间来深入研究所有这些东西。

So, basically, I checked Twitter a lot.

所以，基本上，我经常查看 Twitter。

I checked my phone a lot.

我检查了我的手机很多次。

You're saying that essentially, don't call it addiction.

你说的本质上是，不要称之为成瘾。

I'm just finding more things to get distracted by to push away from all these uncomfortable emotions that I'm feeling doing hard work.

我只是在寻找更多的事情来分散注意力，以摆脱我在努力工作时感到的所有这些不舒服的情绪。

Nir Eyal: That's exactly right.

Nir Eyal：完全正确。

And again, it doesn't mean it's your fault, but it is your responsibility as we talked about earlier, because who else's responsibility is it?

再说一遍，这并不意味着这是你的错，而是我们之前谈到的，这是你的责任，因为还有谁的责任呢？

We love these simple narratives.

我们喜欢这些简单的叙述。

We love these simple stories of something bad is happening, so this is the bad guy.

我们喜欢这些简单的故事，讲述一些坏事正在发生，所以这就是坏人。

Well, sometimes the bad guy is also us, or at least we have a role to play in taking responsibility for this stuff.

好吧，有时坏人也是我们，或者至少我们可以在为这件事承担责任方面发挥作用。

And so, if it was something that is insurmountable, if something you can't do anything about, for example, children, I think children are a protected class.

因此，如果这是一些无法克服的事情，如果有些事情你无能为力，例如儿童，我认为儿童是一个受保护的阶层。

My fifteen-year-old can't walk into a bar and order a gin and tonic.

我十五岁的孩子不能走进酒吧点一杯杜松子酒和补品。

She can't walk into a casino and start playing blackjack.

她不能走进赌场并开始玩二十一点。

She's not ready for that.

她还没准备好。

So, I do think we need regulations to protect children.

所以，我确实认为我们需要制定法规来保护儿童。

I think we also need protections around people who are actually pathologically addicted.

我认为我们还需要对那些实际上患有病态成瘾的人提供保护。

Nir Eyal: If you know people are getting addicted to your product, you do have an ethical responsibility.

Nir Eyal：如果你知道人们对你的产品上瘾，你确实有道德责任。

And I've written about this for the past 10 years now about specific legislation that I think we need around what's called a use and abuse policy for people who are pathologically addicted.

在过去的十年里，我一直在写关于这个问题的具体立法，我认为我们需要围绕针对病态成瘾者的所谓使用和滥用政策。

But for 95% of us, it's not an addiction.

但对于我们 95% 的人来说，这并不是一种瘾。

It's something we can absolutely take control over if we want to and if we have the right tools.

如果我们愿意并且拥有合适的工具，我们绝对可以控制它。

Lenny: Very interesting food for thoughts.

莱尼：非常有趣的思考食物。

Before we get to our very exciting lightning round, is there anything else that you want to share or leave listeners with?

在我们开始激动人心的闪电回合之前，您还有什么想与听众分享或留给听众的吗？

Nir Eyal: There's a wonderful quote that I really love from Paulo Coelho who said that, "A mistake repeated more than once is a decision." A mistake repeated more than once is a decision, such a great quote.

Nir Eyal：我非常喜欢保罗·科埃略（Paulo Coelho）的一句精彩的话，他说：“多次重复的错误就是一个决定。”重复多次的错误就是一个决定，这句话真是太棒了。

And I think it's time that we realize that if we are not doing something about this problem, we are deciding to be distractable.

我认为现在我们应该认识到，如果我们不采取行动解决这个问题，我们就会分心。

The difference between an indistractable person and a distractable person is that an indistractable person says, "Ah, okay, I see what you did to me there.

一个不分心的人和一个不分心的人之间的区别在于，一个不分心的人会说：“啊，好吧，我明白你对我做了什么。

I see I got distracted.

我发现我分心了。

I'm not going to let it happen again." How many times can we get distracted by social media, by whatever, before we say, "Okay, I'm going to take steps today to prevent getting distracted tomorrow"?

我不会让这种事再次发生。”在我们说“好吧，我今天要采取措施防止明天分心”之前，我们会被社交媒体或其他任何事情分心多少次？

That's what defines an indistractable person.

这就是一个不分心的人的定义。

So, if you really want to summarize my work in Indistractable into one Mantra, it's that the antidote for impulsiveness is forethought.

所以，如果你真的想把我在《专心致志》中的工作总结为一句口头禅，那就是冲动的解药就是深思熟虑。

The antidote for impulsiveness is forethought.

冲动的解药是深思熟虑。

Fundamentally, distraction is an impulse control issue.

从根本上来说，分心是一个冲动控制问题。

That's all it is, and it's a skill like any other.

仅此而已，它与其他技能一样。

Nir Eyal: We learn skills.

Nir Eyal：我们学习技能。

Why do we expect that we should just be born with this innate skill to fight distraction?

为什么我们期望我们生来就有这种与生俱来的对抗干扰的能力？

It's a skill like any other.

这是一项与其他技能一样的技能。

And so, the antidote for impulsiveness is forethought.

因此，冲动的解药就是深思熟虑。

If we plan ahead, if we know that we're going to take steps a day to prevent getting distracted tomorrow, there's no distraction we can't overcome.

如果我们提前计划，如果我们知道每天要采取措施防止明天分心，那么就没有我们无法克服的分心。

Lenny: I love it.

莱尼：我喜欢。

I love the message of empowerment and agency.

我喜欢赋权和代理的信息。

I feel like that's so applicable to product management and a lot of the people that listen to this podcast.

我觉得这非常适用于产品管理和很多收听这个播客的人。

And just another example of that even though the world is making life more difficult for us, potentially, you could still do something about it.

这只是另一个例子，即使世界让我们的生活变得更加困难，但你仍然可以做点什么。

And I really like just the general message that you can do something about it.

我真的很喜欢你可以为此做点什么的一般信息。

With that, we've reached a very exciting lightning round.

至此，我们进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。

Are you ready?

你准备好了吗？

Lenny: All right.

莱尼：好吧。

What are two or three books you've recommended most to other people?

您向其他人推荐最多的两三本书是什么？

Nir Eyal: There's this book called Alchemy by Rory Sutherland that I love.

Nir Eyal：我很喜欢 Rory Sutherland 写的这本书《炼金术》。

It's a fantastic book.

这是一本很棒的书。

It delves into the psychology of various experiences.

它深入研究了各种经历的心理学。

So, highly recommend that.

所以，强烈推荐。

And I'm reading a book right now, actually.

事实上，我现在正在读一本书。

It's all myself right here called The Experience Machine by Andy Clark, which I'm really enjoying.

这是我自己的作品，由安迪·克拉克 (Andy Clark) 创作，名为《体验机器》(The Experience Machine)，我真的很喜欢。

Lenny: What is a favorite recent movie or TV show that you've really enjoyed?

莱尼：您最近最喜欢的电影或电视节目是什么？

Nir Eyal: Okay, so it's not very recent, but it's one of my all time favorite movies that nobody's seen, which is Empire of the Sun.

Nir Eyal：好吧，这不是最近的事，但它是我一直以来最喜欢的电影之一，但没人看过，那就是《太阳帝国》。

Have you ever seen Empire of the Sun?

你看过太阳帝国吗？

Nir Eyal: Okay, you got to see it.

Nir Eyal：好吧，你一定要看看。

So, one of my favorite movies, it has Christian Bale in it when he was only, I think, 12 or 13 years old.

所以，这是我最喜欢的电影之一，里面有克里斯蒂安·贝尔，我想，他只有 12 或 13 岁。

Steven Spielberg was the director, John Malkovich stars in it.

史蒂文·斯皮尔伯格担任导演，约翰·马尔科维奇主演。

Unbelievable movie that for some reason nobody saw.

令人难以置信的电影，由于某种原因没有人看过。

So, if you're a Christian Bale fan, which I am, I think he's a fantastic actor, Empire of the Sun, classic, awesome movie.

所以，如果你是克里斯蒂安·贝尔的粉丝（我也是），我认为他是一位出色的演员，《太阳帝国》，一部经典而精彩的电影。

Lenny: Do you have a favorite interview question that you like to ask people when you're hiring them for a job?

莱尼：当你雇用别人工作时，你有一个最喜欢问的面试问题吗？

Nir Eyal: I'm not a big fan of interviews in general.

Nir Eyal：总的来说，我不太喜欢接受采访。

I'm a huge fan of small projects.

我非常喜欢小项目。

So, what I'll oftentimes do is pay people to do a small project and then I can see their work output.

所以，我经常做的就是付钱给人们做一个小项目，然后我可以看到他们的工作成果。

I find that that works much, much better than any question I can come up with.

我发现这比我能提出的任何问题都有效得多。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

A few other people have mentioned that exact idea, especially at a company.

其他一些人也提到过这个确切的想法，尤其是在一家公司。

I think about Linea, where they pay people to do a little project within their company.

我想到了 Linea，他们付钱让人们在公司内做一个小项目。

They're kind of like contractors for the company for a little bit.

他们有点像公司的承包商。

Lenny: Is there a favorite product you've recently discovered that you really love, whether it's an app or something physical?

Lenny：您最近发现有没有一款您真正喜欢的最喜欢的产品，无论是应用程序还是实体产品？

Nir Eyal: I went to Japan a few months ago and I just became obsessed with all things Japanese, and so I bought a hundred different little gadgets that helped me make Japanese food at home.

Nir Eyal：几个月前我去了日本，我对日本的一切都着迷了，所以我买了一百种不同的小工具，帮助我在家做日本料理。

So, I had this little sesame grinder thing.

所以，我有这个小芝麻研磨机。

The Japanese are so good at making devices for everything, so I would just put this under the general bucket of everything Japanese.

日本人非常擅长为所有东西制造设备，所以我会把它放在日本所有东西的总分类下。

Lenny: I use Muji pens, which is an amazing Japanese brand.

Lenny：我用无印良品钢笔，这是一个很棒的日本品牌。

They're just like...

他们就像...

Nir Eyal: Yes, we have Muji.

Nir Eyal：是的，我们有无印良品。

Yes, exactly.

是的，完全正确。

I have some of those, as well.

我也有一些。

They're great.

他们很棒。

Lenny: Go Japan.

莱尼：去日本吧。

Do you have a favorite life motto that you often come back to or share with friends, either at work or life, that you find really useful?

您是否有一条最喜欢的人生格言，无论是在工作还是生活中，您经常回顾或与朋友分享，并且您认为它非常有用？

Nir Eyal: So, I do have several mantras that I repeat to myself daily.

Nir Eyal：所以，我确实有几个每天对自己重复的咒语。

One of those is my life purpose.

其中之一就是我的人生目标。

My purpose in life is to explain the world so that it can be made better.

我的人生目标是解释世界，让世界变得更美好。

Now, that might not apply to everyone.

现在，这可能不适用于所有人。

That's my personal life motto.

这是我个人的人生座右铭。

It kind of just helps me recenter and refocus my purpose for living, which is to serve others, to make the world a better place.

它只是帮助我重新定位并重新聚焦我的生活目标，即服务他人，让世界变得更美好。

And the way I do that is to explain the world so that it can be made better.

我这样做的方式就是解释世界，以便让世界变得更好。

So, of course, that's not going to apply to everyone, but I do think there is something very useful about sitting down and saying, "Wait, what is the purpose of my life?" And so, for me, having that mantra, which I literally repeat every single day as like a little prayer, I'm very secular.

所以，当然，这并不适用于所有人，但我确实认为坐下来问“等等，我人生的目的是什么？”是非常有用的。所以，对我来说，拥有这个咒语，我每天都会重复它，就像一个小祈祷一样，我非常世俗。

I don't believe in anything supernatural, but I think there's a lot of wisdom to be adopted from the practices of organized religion, and one of those is this secular prayer reminding me of my purpose.

我不相信任何超自然的东西，但我认为有组织的宗教实践有很多智慧值得借鉴，其中之一就是这个世俗的祈祷，它提醒我我的目的。

Lenny: I love that.

莱尼：我喜欢这个。

Final question.

最后一个问题。

You wrote a book about building habits.

你写了一本关于养成习惯的书。

What's your best and worst habit these days?

这些天你最好和最差的习惯是什么？

Nir Eyal: This is tricky.

Nir Eyal：这很棘手。

So, I think the reason I'm struggling answering this is because there's a difference between habits and routines and a lot of things that people think are habits are not really habits.

所以，我认为我之所以难以回答这个问题，是因为习惯和惯例之间存在差异，很多人们认为是习惯的事情实际上并不是真正的习惯。

So, I was going to say exercise.

所以，我想说的是锻炼。

I used to be clinically obese and now I exercise.

我曾经是临床肥胖者，现在我锻炼身体。

But that's not technically a habit because it's not done with little or no conscious thought.

但从技术上讲，这并不是一种习惯，因为它不是在很少或没有有意识的思考的情况下完成的。

It's a routine, but I think that's probably one of my best routines is that I've finally, for the first time in my life, really gotten into physical fitness.

这是一种惯例，但我认为这可能是我最好的惯例之一，因为我终于，这是我一生中第一次真正开始健身。

I have maybe not quite a six-pack, but maybe like a four-pack at forty-five years old.

我可能没有六块腹肌，但四十五岁的时候也许有四块腹肌。

I'm pretty proud of that and I'm not saying that to brag.

我对此感到非常自豪，我这么说并不是为了吹牛。

I'm saying it as a testimony to the fact that when you say you're going to do something and actually do it, how wonderful that feels.

我这么说是为了证明这样一个事实：当你说你要做某事并且真正去做时，那感觉是多么美妙。

Nir Eyal: Just live your life with intent.

Nir Eyal：用心过你的生活。

I'm not athletic.

我不擅长运动。

I never was athletic.

我从来不运动。

I still don't really like exercise, but I do it and I eat right because I say I will.

我仍然不太喜欢运动，但我会坚持运动，并且饮食正确，因为我说我会这么做。

So, I think that's probably my best routine and probably my worst habit is that I still feel these impulses.

所以，我认为这可能是我最好的习惯，也可能是我最糟糕的习惯是我仍然感受到这些冲动。

If the definition of a habit is an impulse to do or behavior with little or no conscious thought, you better well damn believe that I feel the impulse to check Instagram for a quick minute or to look at this.

如果习惯的定义是一种很少或没有有意识思考的冲动或行为，那么你最好相信我有快速查看 Instagram 或查看此内容的冲动。

I still feel that.

我仍然有这样的感觉。

I think the difference is that now, I know I'm going to feel those.

我认为不同之处在于，现在我知道我会感受到这些。

I know that's part of my daily experience, and I have those practices in place so that they don't get the best of me.

我知道这是我日常经历的一部分，并且我已经采取了这些做法，以免他们无法发挥我的最佳水平。

Lenny: Just along those lines, something I was going to ask but I forgot is, how often do you not do the things you had in your calendar?

莱尼：沿着这些思路，我本来想问但我忘记了，你多久不做日历上的事情？

What percentage of the things don't get done the way you planned?

有多少百分比的事情没有按照您计划的方式完成？

Nir Eyal: So, when things change dramatically, then I tend to fall off track.

Nir Eyal：所以，当事情发生巨大变化时，我往往会偏离正轨。

So, the first time, if I make a big change in my calendar, I'm much more likely to fall off track.

所以，第一次，如果我对日历做出重大改变，我更有可能偏离轨道。

The more I can go from week to week with small parts of my calendar changing, the more I'll get to a hundred percent doing what I say I'm going to do.

我越能每周对日历的一小部分进行更改，我就越能百分百地完成我所说的要做的事情。

But I would say on average, once I have, I pretty much have my more or less calendar set for the week.

但我想说的是，平均而言，一旦我有了，我几乎已经为一周设置了或多或少的日历。

I would say maybe 10% of the tasks I'll go a little too late on or I'll start, but then of course the idea is to make sure that doesn't happen again next time.

我想说也许 10% 的任务我会做得有点太晚或者我会开始，但当然，我们的想法是确保下次不会再发生这种情况。

Nir Eyal: But there is, of course, some wiggle room.

Nir Eyal：但是当然，还有一些回旋余地。

So, when that might happen, let's say it's 10% of the time I go off track, well then I'll say, "You know what?

所以，当这种情况发生时，假设我有 10% 的时间偏离了轨道，那么我会说，“你知道吗？

I put in too much time for writing.

我花了太多的时间来写作。

An hour of writing is too much.

一个小时的写作太多了。

Maybe I should just start with 45 minutes.

也许我应该从 45 分钟开始。

Let's see if I can do that block.

让我们看看我是否可以完成该块。

I'll adjust it a little bit because I got other stuff that I want to take care of." So, it's those small adjustments within day-to-day, whereas before I wrote Indistractable, it was all kinds of stuff.

我会稍微调整一下，因为我还有其他想要处理的事情。”所以，这是日常中的那些小调整，而在我写《Indistractable》之前，它是各种各样的东西。

It was half the day that I would go off track.

有半天我就会偏离轨道。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

I was going to ask what it was like beforehand.

我本来想先问问情况如何。

Nir, I think we delivered on our promise.

Nir，我认为我们兑现了我们的承诺。

There's at least a dozen very tactical things you can do to become more indistractable and to focus better.

你至少可以做十几个非常有策略的事情来变得更加不分心并更好地集中注意力。

Thank you so much for being here.

非常感谢您来到这里。

Two final questions.

最后两个问题。

Where can folks learn more about the stuff you're doing?

人们可以在哪里了解有关您正在做的事情的更多信息？

Where do they buy your book?

他们在哪里买你的书？

Where they learn more about the things you can do for them?

他们在哪里了解更多关于您可以为他们做的事情？

And then finally, how can listeners be sold to you?

最后，如何才能把听众卖给你呢？

Nir Eyal: I appreciate it.

尼尔·埃亚尔：我很感激。

Thanks.

谢谢。

So, my website is nirandfar.com.

所以，我的网站是 nirandfar.com。

That's spelled like my first name, nirandfar.com.

这个拼写就像我的名字，nirandfar.com。

And my two books, Hooked: How to Build Habit-Forming Products and Indistractable: How to Control Your Attention and Choose Your Life, and they're available wherever books are sold and what you can do for me, become indistractable.

我的两本书《Hooked: How to Build Habit-Forming Products》和《Indistractable: How to Control Your Attention and Choose Your Life》，在任何有书籍出售的地方都可以找到，你可以为我做些什么，变得难以分心。

Honestly, I don't care if you buy the book.

老实说，我不在乎你是否买这本书。

If you can adopt some of these practices and help change this mindset that we're all victims, that we're being hijacked because of the tech companies.

如果你能采取其中一些做法，并帮助改变我们都是受害者、我们因科技公司而被劫持的心态。

If you can start putting the word out there that this is something that has improved your life in some small way and tell others about it, this is how we start spreading those social antibodies, just like my mom did around smoking.

如果你能开始宣传这在某种程度上改善了你的生活，并告诉其他人，这就是我们开始传播这些社会抗体的方式，就像我妈妈在吸烟方面所做的那样。

I think we should all do the same.

我认为我们都应该这样做。

Lenny: I am going to be working on that as soon as we get off.

莱尼：我们一下车我就会开始做这件事。

Nir, thank you so much for being here.

尼尔，非常感谢你来到这里。

Bye everyone.: Thank you so much for listening.

大家再见：非常感谢您的聆听。

If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.

如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.

您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。