How to drive word of mouth | Nilan Peiris (CPO of Wise)

Nilan Peiris: Some people focus on conversion rate, like, "I'm going to make this really, really slick." And that's cool.

Nilan Peiris：有些人关注转化率，比如，“我要把它变得非常非常光滑。”这很酷。

You get a bit more growth.

你会得到更多的成长。

But to get to recommendation, you're going to blow your user socks off.

但为了获得推荐，你会让你的用户大吃一惊。

You have to give them an experience they didn't know was previously possible.

你必须给他们一种他们以前不知道的体验。

And when you are in that place of doing something that no one has ever done before, that's when you get it.

当你在做一些以前没有人做过的事情时，你就会明白。

Lenny: Welcome to Lenny's Podcast, where I interview world-class product leaders and growth experts to learn from their hard won experiences building and growing today's most successful products.

莱尼：欢迎来到莱尼的播客，我在这里采访了世界一流的产品领导者和增长专家，学习他们构建和发展当今最成功产品的来之不易的经验。

Today my guest is Nilan Peiris.

今天我的客人是尼兰·佩里斯。

Nilan is chief product Officer at Wise, where he has been for over 11 years, basically from the beginning of the journey.

Nilan 是 Wise 的首席产品官，基本上从一开始就在 Wise 工作了 11 年多。

If you're not familiar with Wise, you should be.

如果您不熟悉 Wise，您应该很熟悉。

They make it incredibly easy and cheap to send money internationally.

他们使国际汇款变得异常简单和便宜。

I am a regular user and customer, and because the product is so great, they've grown primarily through word of mouth.

我是一名普通用户和客户，因为该产品非常棒，所以他们主要通过口碑来发展。

About 70% of their growth comes through word of mouth.

他们大约 70% 的增长来自口碑。

And in our conversation, Nilan breaks down exactly how they made word of mouth so successful for their product.

在我们的谈话中，尼兰详细分析了他们如何让产品的口碑如此成功。

I don't know any founder who wouldn't wish to have more word of mouth growth, and Nilan's advice is the most tactical, and useful advice I've ever heard for how to actually drive your word of mouth growth.

我不知道有哪个创始人不希望有更多的口碑增长，而尼兰的建议是我听过的关于如何真正推动口碑增长的最具战术性、最有用的建议。

I am really excited for you to hear this episode, and to learn from Nilan.

我真的很高兴你能听到这一集，并向尼兰学习。

And so with that, I bring you Nilan Peiris, after a short word from our sponsors.

因此，在我们的赞助商简短发言后，我为您带来了尼兰·佩里斯 (Nilan Peiris)。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Pendo, the all-in-one platform for product-led companies building breakthrough digital experiences.

Lenny：本集由 Pendo 为您带来，Pendo 是一个为以产品为主导的公司构建突破性数字体验的一体化平台。

With all the tools you need, all in one simple to use platform, Pendo makes it easy to answer critical questions about how users are engaging with your product, and then turn those insights into action.

Pendo 拥有您所需的所有工具，全部集中在一个易于使用的平台中，可以轻松回答有关用户如何与您的产品互动的关键问题，然后将这些见解转化为行动。

With product analytics, low-code in-app guides, user feedback and session replay, customizable roadmaps, and AI generated insights and campaigns, Pendo is the only solution you need to build, ship and optimize a successful product-led motion.

凭借产品分析、低代码应用内指南、用户反馈和会话重播、可定制路线图以及 AI 生成的见解和活动，Pendo 是您构建、交付和优化成功的产品主导动议所需的唯一解决方案。

But don't take my word for it.

但不要相信我的话。

Create your free Pendo account today and start building better experiences across every corner of your product.

立即创建免费的 Pendo 帐户，并开始在产品的每个角落构建更好的体验。

P.S., want to take your product-led know-how a step further?

P.S.，想要进一步提升您以产品为主导的专业知识吗？

Check out Pendo's lineup of certification courses led by top PLG experts, and design to help you grow and advance in your career.

查看由顶级 PLG 专家主导的 Pendo 认证课程阵容，旨在帮助您在职业生涯中成长和进步。

Learn more and experience the power of the Pendo platform today at pendo.io/lenny.

立即访问 pendo.io/lenny 了解更多信息并体验 Pendo 平台的强大功能。

That's pendo.io/lenny.

那是 pendo.io/lenny。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Wix Studio.

Lenny：本集由 Wix Studio 为您带来。

Your agency has just landed a dream client.

您的代理机构刚刚找到了一位梦想客户。

You already have big ideas for the website, but do you have the tools to bring your ambitious vision to life?

您已经对网站有了宏伟的想法，但是您是否拥有将您的雄心勃勃的愿景变为现实的工具？

Let me tell you about Wix Studio, the new platform that lets agencies deliver exceptional client sites with maximum efficiency.

让我向您介绍一下 Wix Studio，这个新平台可以让代理机构以最高效率交付卓越的客户网站。

How?

如何？

First, let's talk about advanced design capabilities.

首先我们来谈谈先进的设计能力。

With Wix Studio, you can build unique layouts with a revolutionary grid experience, and watches elements scale proportionally by default.

借助 Wix Studio，您可以通过革命性的网格体验构建独特的布局，并在默认情况下观察元素按比例缩放。

Lenny: No-code animations add Sparks of delight while adding custom CSS gives total design control, bringing ambitious client projects to life in any industry with a fully integrated suite of business solutions.

Lenny：无代码动画增添了欢乐的火花，同时添加自定义 CSS 提供了全面的设计控制，通过完全集成的业务解决方案套件将雄心勃勃的客户项目带入任何行业。

From e-commerce to events, bookings and more, and extend the capabilities even further with hundreds of APIs and integrations.

从电子商务到活动、预订等，并通过数百个 API 和集成进一步扩展功能。

You know what else?

你知道还有什么吗？

The workflows just make sense.

工作流程才有意义。

There's the built-in AI tools, the on canvas collaborating, a centralized workspace, the reuse of assets across sites, the seamless client handover, and that's not all.

还有内置的人工智能工具、画布上的协作、集中的工作空间、跨站点的资产重用、无缝的客户端移交，而这还不是全部。

Find out more at wix.com/studio.

如需了解更多信息，请访问 wix.com/studio。

Nilan, thank you so much for being here.

尼兰，非常感谢你来到这里。

Welcome to the podcast.

欢迎来到播客。

Lenny: So you're chief product officer at Wise, which I don't know if you knew this, but I'm a very happy weekly active user of.

Lenny：所以你是 Wise 的首席产品官，我不知道你是否知道这一点，但我是一个非常高兴的每周活跃用户。

To give folks a little bit of context on Wise, could you just explain, what does Wise do?

为了给大家介绍一下 Wise 的背景，您能解释一下 Wise 是做什么的吗？

And also share maybe a few stats to give people a sense of the scale that Wise has reached at this point.

或许还可以分享一些统计数据，让人们了解怀斯目前所达到的规模。

Nilan Peiris: We're looking to solve the problems associated with cross-border money movement, which is that moving money across border is pretty slow.

Nilan Peiris：我们正在寻求解决与跨境资金流动相关的问题，即跨境资金转移速度相当缓慢。

It's actually really expensive, and it can be really hard to do.

事实上，它非常昂贵，而且很难做到。

We solve it with three products, our money transfer product, which is what we started with, our account, which would be like, think of trying to solve the problems of international banking with our account for people, and for businesses.

我们通过三种产品来解决这个问题，我们的汇款产品，这就是我们开始的产品，我们的账户，这就像我们试图用我们的账户为人们和企业解决国际银行业务的问题。

And then finally we've also got an enterprise product where we take the underlying infrastructure that's powered those products that we've built, and embed them in the banks, and products that people use every day, and then zooming into the numbers.

最后，我们还得到了一个企业产品，我们采用为我们构建的这些产品提供动力的底层基础设施，并将它们嵌入到银行以及人们每天使用的产品中，然后放大数字。

So, we've got to come a little way on the journey.

所以，我们必须在旅途中走一点路。

So today we're now moving about $12 billion a month, growing between 30 to 40% year on year.

因此，今天我们每月的营业额约为 120 亿美元，同比增长 30% 至 40%。

We take about 0.65% on average across all our routes as price, and we've been profitable for about more than four years now, with 20% EBITDA margins.

我们所有航线的平均价格约为 0.65%，我们已经盈利四年多了，EBITDA 利润率为 20%。

Nilan Peiris: But probably the stat I'm most proud of, and the hardest thing to make happen out of all of that was we acquired 70% of the users that found out about Wise last month through word of mouth.

Nilan Peiris：但可能是我最引以为豪的统计数据，也是最难实现的事情是，我们获得了上个月通过口碑发现 Wise 的用户中 70% 的用户。

So, contextually, we have 16 million customers, and we're acquiring about a million a quarter, about 10 million actives, and yes, so out of a million that joined Wise the first time, 700,000 found out about Wise from a friend.

因此，就具体情况而言，我们拥有 1600 万客户，并且每季度获得约 100 万客户，约 1000 万活跃用户，是的，在首次加入 Wise 的 100 万人中，有 700,000 人从朋友那里发现了 Wise。

Lenny: There's a couple stats there that really stand out to me.

莱尼：有几个统计数据对我来说非常引人注目。

One is you're gaining a million new users a quarter, which is insane.

其中之一是每个季度都会获得一百万新用户，这太疯狂了。

Just like a million new people joining Wise every quarter.

就像每个季度有一百万新人加入 Wise 一样。

That's an astounding number.

这是一个令人震惊的数字。

The other number is what you just shared around word of mouth, that basically more than two thirds of people are discovering Wise and joining Wise through word of mouth.

另一个数字是你刚才分享的口碑，基本上超过三分之二的人是通过口碑发现Wise并加入Wise的。

Mouth.

嘴。

I want to spend the bulk of our conversation on this topic of word of mouth.

我想把我们谈话的大部分时间花在口碑这个话题上。

I think it's extremely rare how you've been able to increase word of mouth, and just how much of your growth comes through word of mouth.

我认为你能够增加口碑的方式是极其罕见的，而你的增长有多少是通过口碑来实现的。

Lenny: You've essentially developed a system for how to drive word of mouth, and how to basically structure your team, your goals, your priorities and things like that in order to lean into this growth channel.

莱尼：你基本上已经开发了一个系统，用于如何推动口碑传播，以及如何从根本上构建你的团队、你的目标、你的优先事项等等，以便进入这个增长渠道。

And so, I just have a million questions around how you think about word of mouth, and the first is just, how do you measure word of mouth?

所以，我有一百万个问题关于你如何看待口碑，第一个问题就是，你如何衡量口碑？

How do you know that say, 70% of your growth is coming through word of mouth?

你怎么知道你的增长 70% 是通过口碑传播的？

Nilan Peiris: We ask customers, is the short answer.

Nilan Peiris：我们询问客户，得到的答案是简短的。

So, we have an attribution model, as you can imagine, and we've had one from the early days, and it overlays all the referrer data and cookie data you have on visits comes to the website.

因此，我们有一个归因模型，正如您可以想象的那样，我们从早期就有了一个归因模型，它覆盖了您访问网站时拥有的所有引荐来源数据和 Cookie 数据。

So you kind of know that.

所以你大概知道这一点。

And then you obviously have the soundtrack stuff, and we sample, and ask customers a set of questions on this, and then overlay that onto the...

然后你显然有配乐的东西，我们进行采样，并向客户询问一系列有关此的问题，然后将其叠加到......

What turns up in your web tracking as direct traffic to give us a sense of how big that word of mouth number is, and that's what gets us back to the 70% stat.

网络跟踪中出现的直接流量让我们了解口碑数量有多大，这就是让我们回到 70% 统计数据的原因。

Lenny: And very practically, how do you actually ask people?

莱尼：实际上，你如何向人们提问？

Is there a little pop-up on the website?

网站上有一个小弹出窗口吗？

Nilan Peiris: It's actually integrated into the flow.

Nilan Peiris：它实际上已融入流程中。

So when we built it originally, we thought it's quite cool, marketing and acquiring customers is part of the product, and we should actually stitch that into the experience seamlessly so that we're able to do this more effectively going forward.

因此，当我们最初构建它时，我们认为它非常酷，营销和获取客户是产品的一部分，我们实际上应该将其无缝地融入到体验中，以便我们能够在未来更有效地做到这一点。

Lenny: That's actually, at Airbnb, exactly how the team did that, to understand what percentage of growth was word of mouth.

Lenny：实际上，在 Airbnb，团队就是这样做的，以了解口碑增长的百分比。

It's just a little interstitial popup when you visit say, airbnb.com, "How'd you hear about us?" You think there's some fancy ways to understand the stuff, but it's just like, just ask people, they'll tell you how they heard about it.

当您访问airbnb.com 时，这只是一个小插页式弹出窗口，“您是如何得知我们的？”你认为有一些奇特的方法可以理解这些东西，但这就像，只要问人们，他们就会告诉你他们是如何听说的。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

Okay, so just to kind of dig into the meat of it, what has been the biggest shift in helping you significantly grow word of mouth, and make it such a huge lever of growth for Wise?

好的，那么，为了深入了解它的实质，帮助您显着提高口碑并使其成为 Wise 如此巨大的增长杠杆的最大转变是什么？

Nilan Peiris: Yeah, before I launch into this, let's just also take a step back, and why even focus on this?

Nilan Peiris：是的，在我开始讨论这个问题之前，我们先退后一步，为什么还要关注这个呢？

So in the early days, when I met the founders, Kristo and Tyler.

所以在早期，当我遇到创始人克里斯托和泰勒时。

It was quite funny, I got introed to them when they were just the founders, and without a team really, and with the beginnings of a product, and they said, "Nilan, you've got to meet these guys, they've got a great product, they just don't have any customers." And I sat there with them, and we kind of launched the first Google ads, and in the early days you try everything, hoping that something works.

这很有趣，我在他们还只是创始人的时候就被介绍给他们了，而且还没有真正的团队，而且产品刚刚开始，他们说，“尼兰，你必须见见这些人，他们有一个很棒的产品，他们只是没有任何客户。”我和他们坐在一起，我们推出了第一个谷歌广告，在早期，你尝试一切，希望有效果。

But taking a step back, think of money as the ultimate commodity.

但退后一步，将金钱视为终极商品。

It's pretty hard to build an expensive business that moves your money somewhere, and it costs a lot, so there's less of it afterwards.

建立一个昂贵的企业来把你的钱转移到某个地方是相当困难的，而且成本很高，所以之后的钱就更少了。

Nilan Peiris: So building a brand led money transfer business, the brand's got to be pretty damn good, right?

Nilan Peiris：所以建立一个品牌带动汇款业务，这个品牌一定非常好，对吧？

You're going to feel pretty special afterwards, in order to have less money afterwards.

之后你会感觉很特别，因为之后你的钱会更少。

So what we're looking for always, but what channels out there are super scalable, and can reach our entire audience, but have an incredibly low distribution cost.

所以我们一直在寻找什么，但有哪些渠道具有超级可扩展性，可以覆盖我们的所有受众，但分销成本却极低。

So, that's one thing that led us to word of mouth and the other bit, when we get on to talk about marketing later, the other challenge with marketing which is unique is because we are lower price, but a superior product, we have less margin to spend on marketing than others in certain paid channels.

所以，这是导致我们口碑传播的一件事，另一方面，当我们稍后谈论营销时，营销的另一个独特挑战是因为我们的价格较低，但产品优质，我们在营销上的利润比某些付费渠道的其他人要少。

So that's another reason why marketing is inherently hard.

这就是营销本身就困难的另一个原因。

Our marketing team does amazing work at Wise, in order to work within those constraints.

为了在这些限制范围内开展工作，我们的营销团队在 Wise 做了出色的工作。

Nilan Peiris: But back to your question, which was like, what's the biggest thing we've done to shift word of mouth.

Nilan Peiris：回到你的问题，我们为改变口碑所做的最大的事情是什么。

When I joined Wise, and started wrangling with word of mouth, I spent a bunch of time with friends of mine in the US and around the world, Andrew Chen, some of the other growth gurus, this is going back 10, 12 years.

当我加入 Wise 并开始与口碑争论时，我花了很多时间与我在美国和世界各地的朋友安德鲁·陈 (Andrew Chen) 以及其他一些增长专家一起度过，这可以追溯到 10、12 年前。

It's like what mouths, who's done it?

这就像什么嘴，是谁干的？

What's the system?

系统是什么？

What do you measure?

你测量什么？

There wasn't really anything out there.

那里真的什么都没有。

So we kind of had to figure our way out.

所以我们必须想办法解决这个问题。

So, first step was asking it, and the second step was kind of figure out how do you know what's driving it?

所以，第一步是问它，第二步是弄清楚你怎么知道是什么在驱动它？

And the best proxy we found for this was something that most people have heard of, that we actually used quite a lot is net promoter score.

我们为此找到的最佳代理是大多数人都听说过的东西，我们实际上经常使用的是净推荐值。

Nilan Peiris: So from the very early days we'd start asking customers, and you probably have seen this survey, "Would you recommend Wise to a friend?"

Nilan Peiris：所以从一开始我们就开始询问客户，你可能已经看过这项调查，“你会向朋友推荐 Wise 吗？”

Lenny: Never seen that ever in my life.

莱尼：我这辈子从来没见过这样的事。

Never been asked that question.

从来没有被问过这个问题。

Nilan Peiris: Exactly.

尼兰·佩里斯：没错。

There's you said.

就是你说的。

And then in the end you've got the scale, zero to 10, and the theory is nine to 10 there are promoters, and zero to seven are detractors.

最后你就得到了等级，0到10，理论上是9到10是支持者，0到7是反对者。

Zero to six, detractors, and seven to eight are kind of neutral on your product.

零到六是批评者，七到八是对你的产品持中立态度。

The intriguing bet was when we overlaid this...

有趣的赌注是当我们叠加这个时......

So we have word of mouth, it's about 50 odd percent, and then we have a referral program.

所以我们有口碑，大约有百分之五十，然后我们有一个推荐计划。

When we overlay the referral data over the NPS survey data, we saw something really interesting.

当我们将推荐数据叠加到 NPS 调查数据上时，我们看到了一些非常有趣的东西。

Nilan Peiris: There's very low invite rates at one to six, and not just invite, conversion rates of users that joined for invites.

Nilan Peiris：邀请率非常低，为 1 到 6，而不仅仅是邀请，通过邀请加入的用户的转化率也很低。

But when we've got people from sixes to this seven and eight group, they doubled the number of people they told.

但当我们把六岁的人增加到七岁和八岁的时候，他们告诉的人数就增加了一倍。

Eight to nine, they doubled again, and nine to 10, they doubled again.

八比九，他们再次翻倍，九比十，他们再次翻倍。

So, this is pretty crazy when you see it for the first time.

所以，当你第一次看到它时，这是相当疯狂的。

I'm going to get back to your question in a sec, but it's quite core buildup to it, because when you are a product manager, like you've been in your career, one of your jobs is to figure out what metric are you going to optimize for?

我很快就会回到你的问题，但这是一个非常核心的问题，因为当你是一名产品经理时，就像你在你的职业生涯中一样，你的工作之一就是弄清楚你要优化什么指标？

What are you going to try to get the business to ground behind?

您将采取什么措施让业务落地？

And if you optimize for something like conversion, rate and you move conversion rate with 10%, you kind of get this one-off hit.

如果你针对转化率、转化率等方面进行优化，并将转化率提高 10%，那么你就会获得一次性的成功。

Nilan Peiris: But if you move the NPS from 30% to 50%, you increase the viral coefficient of your customer base.

Nilan Peiris：但是如果将 NPS 从 30% 提高到 50%，就会增加客户群的病毒系数。

So every customer that goes through tells X many more.

因此，每一位经过的顾客都会告诉 X 更多信息。

When you model this through, the ROI on NPS increases is absolutely huge.

当你对此进行建模时，NPS 的投资回报率的增加绝对是巨大的。

So, it's got to say, "Okay, this is the thing to zoom in on, so how to move it?" So, then the second magic of NPS is you get the numbers, but you also get the comments underneath it.

所以，它必须说，“好吧，这就是要放大的东西，那么如何移动它呢？”所以，NPS 的第二个魔力就是你可以获得数字，但你也可以获得数字下面的评论。

I remember in the first year we built the NPS survey, and we emailed out every week all the comments to the whole company, which was pretty small, and we kept doing that, I think up till about three or four years, everyone got the NPS comments.

我记得在我们建立 NPS 调查的第一年，我们每周都会通过电子邮件将所有评论发送给整个公司，这是相当小的，我们一直这样做，我想直到大约三四年，每个人都收到了 NPS 评论。

Nilan Peiris: And when you read the comments, and now obviously we've got all kinds of fancy models sitting on top of these things, customers kept telling us the same things, "Make it faster, make it cheaper, make it easier to use." Do you know at the beginning, when I said, "Price, speed, ease of use," we kind of figured this out by thinking hard about this question.

Nilan Peiris：当你阅读评论时，现在显然我们在这些东西上放置了各种精美的模型，客户不断告诉我们同样的事情，“让它更快，让它更便宜，让它更容易使用。”你知道吗，一开始，当我说“价格、速度、易用性”时，我们通过认真思考这个问题就找到了答案。

How do we make this product so good that people will use, it but they'll recommend it?

我们如何使这个产品如此好，让人们会使用它，但他们会推荐它？

Nilan Peiris: And customers were pretty clear, the ones that were evangelical, is the word we use, are the ones that had a much...

Nilan Peiris：客户很清楚，我们用的词是福音派，是那些拥有很多......

Had this cheaper experience, the ones that were talking about it had a fast experience.

有了这种更便宜的体验，那些谈论它的人就有了快速的体验。

So it's about price, about speed, it's about ease of use.

所以这与价格、速度、易用性有关。

And when you generalize and take a step back, and look at consumer product companies, they have these product pillars they call it, and they usually have KPIs around them.

当你概括并退后一步，看看消费品公司时，他们有他们称之为的产品支柱，而且他们通常有关键绩效指标 (KPI)。

The second insight we got, found, is when we entered markets, like when we entered the US for the first time, if we entered with a product that was priced at say 5.9%, and the alternative was six, customers would use us, but they wouldn't talk about us.

我们发现的第二个见解是，当我们进入市场时，比如我们第一次进入美国时，如果我们进入的产品价格为 5.9%，而替代品为 6%，客户会使用我们，但他们不会谈论我们。

We only got the advocacy when we were eight to 10 times cheaper.

当我们的价格便宜八到十倍时，我们才得到了宣传。

That's when people started talking about it.

就在那时，人们开始谈论它。

Lenny: Let me actually interrupt you here a bit, just to kind of set a little frame around this, because this is extremely interesting, and I think people may miss, I think, some of the really interesting insights here.

莱尼：实际上让我在这里打断一下，只是为了围绕这个问题设置一个小框架，因为这非常有趣，我认为人们可能会错过这里的一些真正有趣的见解。

What I'm hearing is essentially there's this clear sense that you had to grow through word of mouth because of the business model.

我听到的本质上是一种明显的感觉，即由于商业模式的原因，你必须通过口碑来实现增长。

You didn't make a lot of money per user, and you didn't have a lot of money to spend thus, to help grow.

你没有从每个用户身上赚到很多钱，也没有很多钱可以用来帮助增长。

So essentially it's like.

所以本质上就像是。

"How do we grow the word of mouth?" And then it's, "Okay, what do we need to convince people to share this product?" And used NPS, which I think a lot of people use, and also a lot of people probably know, "Let's make our product more awesome so that people talk about it." Those are kind of like, "Oh yeah, of course."

“我们如何增加口碑？”然后是，“好吧，我们需要什么才能说服人们分享这个产品？”并且使用了 NPS，我认为很多人都使用它，而且很多人可能都知道，“让我们让我们的产品变得更棒，以便人们谈论它。”这些有点像，“哦，是的，当然。”

Lenny: But I think what I'm hearing is that you did that's really unique, is one, you found this huge delta between these detractors, and even seven or...

莱尼：但我认为我听到的是，你所做的事情非常独特，其中之一是，你发现这些批评者之间存在巨大的差异，甚至有七个或......

I guess it was six and below, and then seven or eight, and then nine, 10 kept kind of doubling.

我猜是 6 及以下，然后是 7 或 8，然后是 9、10，一直在翻倍。

So one is just this focus on, how do we get someone from there to there?

因此，我们关注的焦点是，我们如何将某人从那里带到那里？

Two is this really big focus on the comments of the NPS survey, not just like, "Oh we have this percentage of detractors." And then also I love how you just create these pillars, essentially, of like, "We're going to work on these three things.

二是非常关注 NPS 调查的评论，而不仅仅是“哦，我们有这个比例的批评者”。然后我也喜欢你如何创建这些支柱，本质上，“我们将致力于这三件事。

These are the three levers to help grow word of mouth for this product." Does that sound about right?

这是帮助该产品提高口碑的三个杠杆。”听起来对吗？

Nilan Peiris: That all makes sense.

Nilan Peiris：这一切都有道理。

Obviously at the time, it is also way more chaotic.

显然，当时的情况也更加混乱。

Nilan Peiris: So, at the beginning, everyone thinks it's 20 different things, and then over time, slowly, you understand that it's these things again and again.

Nilan Peiris：所以，一开始，每个人都认为这是 20 种不同的东西，然后随着时间的推移，慢慢地，你会明白这是一次又一次的这些东西。

And a lot of building a successful businesses kind of building conviction that these are the things that matter.

很多建立成功的企业都在某种程度上建立了这样的信念：这些事情才是重要的。

So, now I'd say price, speed, ease of use, it sounds...

所以，现在我要说的是价格、速度、易用性，听起来……

Like, but yeah, go back to seven, eight years.

就像，但是，是的，回到七、八年前。

But we were arguing with each other around what, "Is it trust?

但我们一直在争论“这是信任吗？

Is it this?

是这个吗？

Is it this?" Trying to get clear on what are the things we missed there.

是这个吗？”试图弄清楚我们在那里错过了什么。

Lenny: That would be useful actually to know.

莱尼：知道这一点实际上很有用。

It sounds like, of course, it's going to be price and speed, but what are the things you kind of realize you don't need to focus on as much, based on these surveys?

听起来当然是价格和速度，但是根据这些调查，您意识到哪些事情是您不需要关注的？

Nilan Peiris: Oh, wow, that's a really hard one.

Nilan Peiris：哦，哇，这真的很难。

So, then the challenge, is as you know, everything is important.

所以，正如你所知，挑战就是一切都很重要。

Nilan Peiris: Yeah?

尼兰·佩里斯：是吗？

And that things that we use...

还有我们使用的东西...

We have a bucket called convenience.

我们有一个叫做便利的桶。

And inside the convenience bucket, there are many, many things hiding in there.

而便利桶里面，藏着许许多多的东西。

And actually, you can measure this on contact rate, conversion rate, whatever, many different ways, and get many slightly different answers.

实际上，你可以通过接触率、转化率等多种不同的方式来衡量这一点，并得到许多略有不同的答案。

So, I think I've learned there isn't...

所以，我想我已经了解到没有...

I haven't got a good answer on things we haven't-

对于我们还没有得到的事情，我还没有得到一个好的答案——

Lenny: Well, as you said, trust, which is interesting.

莱尼：嗯，正如你所说，信任，这很有趣。

Obviously trust matters, but maybe it sounds like-

显然信任很重要，但也许听起来像——

Nilan Peiris: Trust certainly matters.

Nilan Peiris：信任当然很重要。

Yeah, trust's a good one.

是的，信任是一件好事。

Let's talk about that one bit.

我们来谈谈这一点。

I'll talk to you through the trust problem.

我来和你谈谈信任问题。

So I ran into the trust problem hardest in marketing.

所以我遇到了营销中最难的信任问题。

So, just imagine, you just started out, you've got a money transfer company, it's good, your product's really good, it's really cheap.

所以，想象一下，你刚刚起步，你有一家汇款公司，这很好，你的产品真的很好，而且很便宜。

So, you put an ad out, and it says, "Move money with Wise, and really cheaply," is anyone going to click that?

那么，您发布了一则广告，上面写着“通过 Wise 转账，而且非常便宜”，有人会点击吗？

People did, right?

人们做到了，对吗？

Is anyone going to use it?

有人会用它吗？

Yeah, people did use it.

是的，人们确实使用过它。

And you did work all the usual trust elements.

你确实履行了所有常见的信任要素。

But the bit I found that really helped, the way I got my head around this, was what people trust is their friends.

但我发现真正有帮助的一点是，我解决这个问题的方式是人们信任的是他们的朋友。

And this really was way stronger a trust signal than anything I could put on a landing page.

这确实比我在登陆页面上放置的任何内容都更强烈的信任信号。

Nilan Peiris: And even when people came in through marketing, they'd been told.

Nilan Peiris：即使人们通过营销进来，他们也会被告知。

So marketing can aid recall, and all kinds of things, because people are told by their friends.

因此，营销可以帮助回忆以及各种事情，因为人们是通过朋友告诉的。

They'd have a use case later on, then Google, and like, "Ah, I remember, this guy used this." And we do definitely get users, especially today as we've got a larger brand, through marketing direct.

他们稍后会有一个用例，然后是谷歌，然后就像，“啊，我记得，这个人用过这个。”我们确实通过直接营销获得了用户，尤其是在今天，我们已经拥有了更大的品牌。

But trust in isolation is a really hard problem to solve.

但孤立的信任确实是一个很难解决的问题。

You need to get under the skin of what it means.

您需要深入了解它的含义。

People don't think my money is safe.

人们认为我的钱不安全。

"I don't know if this company is reputable," to unpick each of these problems and figure out systemically how to solve them.

“我不知道这家公司是否有信誉”，逐一解开这些问题并系统地找出解决方法。

And we've done this to some extent, but really there's a massive shortcut, which is if you deliver your customers a good experience, then figure out, how do you make it so good they'll recommend it?

我们在某种程度上已经做到了这一点，但实际上有一个巨大的捷径，那就是如果你为你的客户提供良好的体验，然后弄清楚，你如何让它如此好，他们会推荐它？

Then that kind of shortcut a lot of really hard trust problems.

那么这种捷径会带来很多非常困难的信任问题。

Lenny: What did you find most helped increase trust in that way?

莱尼：您发现什么最有助于增加信任？

Is it just get more people using it and then they'll share with their friends, or is there something you did there to...

是只是让更多的人使用它，然后他们会与他们的朋友分享，还是你在那里做了什么......

Nilan Peiris: No, it was literally get more people using it, and they'll share with their friends.

Nilan Peiris：不，实际上是让更多的人使用它，他们会与朋友分享。

There's obviously a bunch of learnings we've had around what specific trust sentiments matter, especially geographically, but less powerful in the macro than get more people to use it.

显然，我们已经学到了很多关于特定信任情绪的重要性的知识，尤其是在地理上，但在宏观上不如让更多的人使用它更有效。

Nilan Peiris: So coming back to that, and I'd love to get your thoughts on this one.

Nilan Peiris：那么回到这一点，我很想听听您对此的看法。

So, as you said, lots of people go up to NPS, and they kind of heard people talk about it, heard people talk about recommendations.

所以，正如你所说，很多人都会去 NPS，他们听到人们谈论它，听到人们谈论建议。

So my learning on this is you've got to work really hard to get recommendation.

所以我在这方面的经验是你必须非常努力才能获得推荐。

So, to get a nine or a 10, so our NPS is 70%, so it's really, really high.

因此，要获得 9 或 10，我们的 NPS 为 70%，所以它真的非常高。

So it's kind of higher than the iPhone, and Google search.

所以它比 iPhone 和谷歌搜索要高一些。

So really, really high, so off the scale high.

非常非常高，非常高。

Nilan Peiris: And when we launch a market, or at the beginning it was much lower, so 20s and 30s.

Nilan Peiris：当我们推出一个市场时，或者在开始时，它要低得多，所以 20 到 30 岁。

So instead it in context, like banks and financial services NPS is -30.

因此，在银行和金融服务等环境中，NPS 为 -30。

So, most people don't recommend banks.

所以，大多数人不推荐银行。

So it's like, comes from a low base.

所以这就像是，来自一个低基础。

But, what I've found is when you build a product, most founders, and most teams kind of stop when it works.

但是，我发现当你开发一个产品时，大多数创始人和大多数团队都会在产品发挥作用时停下来。

As their next step, some people focus on conversion rate like, "I'm going to make this really, really slick," and that's cool, you get a bit more growth.

作为他们的下一步，有些人关注转化率，比如，“我要把它变得非常非常光滑”，这很酷，你会得到更多的增长。

Nilan Peiris: But to get to recommendation, you're going to blow your users' socks off, and the phrase we use is, you have to give them an experience they didn't know was previously possible.

Nilan Peiris：但是要获得推荐，您将让用户大吃一惊，我们使用的短语是，您必须为他们提供他们以前不知道的体验。

And when you are in that place of doing something that no one has ever done before, that's where you get it.

当你在做一些以前没有人做过的事情时，你就会得到它。

Nilan Peiris: So the bar is all the way up there.

Nilan Peiris：所以酒吧就在那里。

And to put that in context, that means figuring out how to move money instantly.

从上下文来看，这意味着弄清楚如何立即转移资金。

That means figuring out how to drop the price all the way from six all the way down to 0.35.

这意味着要弄清楚如何将价格从 6 一路降至 0.35。

And that's because there are systemic infrastructure issues in moving money around the world, which some people haven't solved before.

这是因为在世界范围内转移资金存在系统性基础设施问题，而一些人之前尚未解决这些问题。

And these problems are just really hard to solve.

这些问题真的很难解决。

They take years to solve, but they have huge kind of returns when you do it.

这些问题需要数年时间才能解决，但当你这样做时，它们会带来巨大的回报。

Lenny: I love that just as a framework, is how do...

Lenny：我喜欢它作为一个框架，它是如何......

We need to blow our users' socks off.

我们需要让用户大吃一惊。

And again, it just comes back to how you can get people to want to share this product, and drive word of mouth, blow their socks off.

再说一次，这又回到了如何让人们想要分享这个产品，并推动口碑传播，让他们大吃一惊。

Lenny: I want to dig into how you actually just figured out what these attributes are.

莱尼：我想深入了解一下您实际上是如何弄清楚这些属性是什么的。

Obviously you talked about this NPS survey highlighting things.

显然，您谈到的 NPS 调查强调了一些事情。

How did you decide it was instant money movement, and some of the other things?

您如何确定这是即时资金流动以及其他一些事情？

Is it just basically looking at these survey results, and picking the things that come up most often?

是否只是简单地查看这些调查结果，然后挑选最常出现的内容？

Nilan Peiris: Yeah, it was talking to customers, and looking at the survey results, and then through that, in many different ways, price will come up, speed will come up, ease of use will come up, and they kind of aggregate up to that.

Nilan Peiris：是的，我们正在与客户交谈，查看调查结果，然后通过多种不同的方式，价格会上升，速度会上升，易用性会上升，他们会汇总起来。

Lenny: I think a lot of people listening are still going to be this like, "Okay, we're just going to make our product awesome, and it's going to grow." And in a sense, yeah, in another sense what you're sharing is essentially kind of a really simple framework for how to actually do that.

莱尼：我认为很多听的人仍然会这样说，“好吧，我们只是让我们的产品变得很棒，而且它会成长。”从某种意义上说，是的，从另一种意义上来说，您所分享的本质上是一个非常简单的框架，用于指导如何实际做到这一点。

To kind of go a little deeper there, when you see other people trying to drive word of mouth, trying to drive virality, is there anything you think people often do wrong?

更深入一点，当你看到其他人试图推动口碑传播、试图推动病毒式传播时，你认为人们经常做错什么吗？

Is there other missteps you've taken in trying to drive word of mouth?

在推动口碑传播方面，您还犯过其他错误吗？

Nilan Peiris: It's this thing around growth rate.

Nilan Peiris：这与增长率有关。

So, especially product net growth, which is what we're talking about.

所以，特别是我们正在讨论的产品净增长。

So you can imagine, we're going to open a new market to Indonesia, and the fastest way to do it is to take...

所以你可以想象，我们要向印度尼西亚打开一个新市场，而最快的方法就是……

Someone else has figured out how to move to Indonesia.

其他人已经弄清楚如何搬到印度尼西亚。

We take that infrastructure, and we'll plug it into Wise,

我们采用该基础设施，并将其插入 Wise，

Nilan Peiris: You know what?

尼兰·佩里斯：你知道吗？

We can do this, we'll get some users.

我们可以做到这一点，我们会获得一些用户。

But it doesn't grow like a hockey stick.

但它不像曲棍球棒那样生长。

It doesn't grow like a hockey stick because we haven't fundamentally changed the problems in moving money internationally.

它不会像曲棍球棒一样成长，因为我们还没有从根本上改变国际间转移资金的问题。

So, got this mantra, you've got to build a 10x better product than what's there.

所以，记住这句话，你必须打造比现有产品好 10 倍的产品。

And if it's 10x product better, basically it doesn't exist already.

如果它是 10 倍的产品，那么基本上它已经不存在了。

So if you're plugging in something else, that's kind of a misstep.

因此，如果你插入其他东西，那就是一个失误。

Nilan Peiris: So it comes from a very logical place, how do I get users quickly?

Nilan Peiris：所以它来自一个非常合乎逻辑的地方，我如何快速获得用户？

I can take a shortcut in doing this, but that, you kind of realize is wasted effort.

我可以走捷径来做这件事，但你会意识到那是浪费精力。

So the step then becomes this much harder question of these types of questions.

因此，这一步就变成了此类问题中更难的问题。

Like what is the theoretical minimum cost for moving money into a market?

比如将资金转移到市场的理论上的最低成本是多少？

What is the theoretical maximum speed?

理论最大速度是多少？

Not just make it instant, make it cheap, but what actually is the lowest it could possibly be?

不仅仅是让它变得即时、让它便宜，但实际上它可能的最低价格是多少？

And instead of incrementally going, doing a jump to make it a little better, a little better, a little better, you can never get there.

如果不是循序渐进、跳跃式地让它变得更好一点、更好一点、更好一点，你永远无法到达那里。

How do we take two years, and end up there?

我们如何花两年的时间，最终到达那里？

Lenny: I love that.

莱尼：我喜欢这个。

It's something that I talk about a lot.

这是我经常谈论的事情。

Something I learned at Airbnb is this idea of working backwards from the ideal, instead of working forwards from how do we iterate and make this better, and better, and better.

我在 Airbnb 学到的东西是从理想开始向后工作，而不是从我们如何迭代并使之变得越来越好开始向前工作。

It's like, okay, if we could start again, and we could create the ideal experience, what would that look like?

就像，好吧，如果我们可以重新开始，并且我们可以创造理想的体验，那会是什么样子？

And then work backwards from what would it take to get there?

然后从到达那里需要什么开始倒推？

Nilan Peiris: And what's an example of that at Airbnb?

Nilan Peiris：Airbnb 的例子是什么？

What was an ideal that you guys went for and then built?

你们追求并建立的理想是什么？

Lenny: The ideal was, there's this whole process where the founders hired this storyboard artist from Pixar to draw out the ideal experience of a host and a guest.

Lenny：理想的是，创始人从皮克斯聘请了这位故事板艺术家来绘制主人和客人的理想体验。

So, there's these storyboards sitting in the office.

所以，办公室里有这些故事板。

I think there's 12 kind of...

我认为有12种...

They call them key frames of, it's just like the booking experience being really seamless, arriving in the home, and being really amazed.

他们称它们为关键帧，就像预订体验非常无缝，到达家中，并且非常惊讶。

Going out and finding things to do.

出去寻找事情做。

Lenny: So, this became essentially the vision of the company is let's make each of these frames, these key moments of a journey for hosting a guest as incredible as possible.

莱尼：所以，这基本上成为公司的愿景，让我们让接待客人的旅程中的每一帧、这些关键时刻都尽可能令人难以置信。

That was one, and that became essentially the strategy for a few years is just make each of these frames awesome.

这就是其中之一，这几年来的战略基本上就是让每个框架都变得很棒。

Lenny: And then there was another project that they were working on around booking at Airbnb.

Lenny：然后他们正在开展另一个围绕 Airbnb 预订的项目。

I don't know if you remember this, if you used Airbnb much, but most of Airbnb back in the day was you request to book with a host, you're like, "Hey, can I stay in your home?"

我不知道你是否还记得这一点，如果你经常使用 Airbnb，但当时大部分 Airbnb 都是你要求向房东预订，你会说，“嘿，我可以住在你家吗？”

Lenny: And turned out 50% of the time the guest was ignored, or rejected, and the host was just like, "Nah, no thank you." Now, over 80% as far as I know of bookings are instant bookings, where you just book and it's done, just like every other place you book online.

莱尼：结果 50% 的情况下，客人被忽视或拒绝，而主人只是说，“不，不，谢谢。”现在，据我所知，超过 80% 的预订都是即时预订，您只需预订即可完成，就像您在网上预订的其他地方一样。

And so that was a huge transition that I worked on, and that came from, if we were to start Airbnb again today, or if someone were to disrupt Airbnb, what would it look like?

所以这是我致力于的一个巨大转变，如果我们今天再次启动 Airbnb，或者如果有人要颠覆 Airbnb，那会是什么样子？

And obviously it'd be you just book.

显然，您只需预订即可。

You're not sitting around hoping someone is cool with you.

你不会坐在那里希望有人对你保持冷静。

So, that came from that idea of just like, what would be the ideal Airbnb experience?

所以，这源于这样一个想法：理想的 Airbnb 体验是什么？

Nilan Peiris: That is incredibly inspiring.

Nilan Peiris：这非常鼓舞人心。

I'll try and share a couple of stories, analogies from Wise.

我将尝试分享几个来自怀斯的故事和类比。

I'll talk about two things.

我要谈两件事。

Let's talk about price first.

我们先谈谈价格。

So, it's a good question.

所以，这是一个好问题。

So, Moneytrans has been around since the .

因此，Moneytrans 自 .

How does a few people get together?

几个人怎么聚在一起？

And it's evolved towards moving trillions around the world, and generally retail consumers paying about six to 7% around the world to do it.

它的发展方向是在全球范围内运送数万亿美元，而一般零售消费者在全球范围内支付约 6% 至 7% 的费用即可做到这一点。

How do a small team in Europe start out and figure out how to move it?

欧洲的一个小团队如何开始并弄清楚如何移动它？

We launched at 0.5%, and now we're down to about 0.35%.

我们最初的利率为 0.5%，现在已降至 0.35% 左右。

So what changed?

那么是什么改变了呢？

Lenny: Yeah, I was going to ask, how did you do that?

莱尼：是的，我正想问，你是怎么做到的？

That sounds like everyone would want to do that.

听起来每个人都想这样做。

Nilan Peiris: Yeah, so let's try to unpick it a little bit.

Nilan Peiris：是的，所以让我们尝试稍微解开它。

So, first question you'd ask is, "I know what you're doing, you're losing money on every transfer." It's like, "Especially what you're doing," but we've been profitable for five years.

所以，你要问的第一个问题是，“我知道你在做什么，你每次转账都会赔钱。”就像，“尤其是你正在做的事情”，但我们已经盈利了五年。

And one of the magical things here was we're actually profitable in every transaction.

这里神奇的事情之一是我们实际上在每笔交易中都有利可图。

So it's probably about four or five years ago, I led this project to start to pull together our pricing.

所以大概是在四五年前，我领导了这个项目，开始整合我们的定价。

Nilan Peiris: So, every month you get bills, and they turn up in your P&L, but every single bill we got, we allocated the cost back to the customer, or the transaction that generated it.

Nilan Peiris：所以，每个月你都会收到账单，它们会出现在你的损益表中，但我们收到的每一张账单，我们都会将成本分配给客户或产生成本的交易。

And then we add our margin on top, and that's our price.

然后我们加上我们的利润，这就是我们的价格。

And when you look at this and you analyze it, you'll find obviously there are 20% of customers generating 80% of the costs.

当你观察并分析它时，你会发现显然有 20% 的客户产生了 80% 的成本。

And what you do is you get those 20%, you give them a raise, because they should cover their costs, and you drop the price to everyone else.

你所做的就是你得到这 20%，你给他们加薪，因为他们应该承担他们的成本，然后你把价格降给其他人。

And then the team works really hard on reducing these costs down, and then you move into a different segment in the market as the price costs come down.

然后团队非常努力地降低这些成本，然后随着价格成本的下降，你就会进入市场的不同细分市场。

Does that make sense, Lenny?

这有道理吗，莱尼？

Lenny: Yeah.

莱尼：是的。

Essentially charge the heavier users more to counteract less frequent users.

本质上是向使用频率较高的用户收取更多费用，以抵消使用频率较低的用户。

And essentially that drives word of mouth.

从本质上讲，这推动了口碑传播。

Nilan Peiris: Totally, but it's down to this level of, if an Australian customer calls up asking, "Where is my transfer?" That cost of that call gets allocated back to the AUD/GBP route.

Nilan Peiris：完全可以，但是如果澳大利亚客户打电话询问“我的转账在哪里？”，情况就这样了。该呼叫的费用将分配回澳元/英镑路线。

If a Brazilian business needs like 20 documents in order to be verified before we can give them an account, the cost of verifying check those customers goes back there, so that at a very atomic level starts happening.

如果一家巴西企业需要 20 份文件才能进行验证，然后我们才能向他们提供账户，那么验证检查这些客户的成本就会回到那里，以便在非常原子的层面上开始发生。

So yeah, as you said, the more expensive customers end up paying what they cost.

所以，是的，正如你所说，价格更高的客户最终会支付他们所花费的费用。

Lenny: And it sounds like the more expensive markets.

莱尼：听起来市场更贵。

Nilan Peiris: Indeed, and the more expensive, systemically expensive markets.

Nilan Peiris：确实，而且是更昂贵的、系统性昂贵的市场。

But let's get to that.

但让我们开始吧。

So, what are the costs?

那么，费用是多少？

So if you look at our P&L, there's just three costs at transaction level.

因此，如果你看一下我们的损益表，就会发现交易层面只有三项成本。

You've got people costs, you've got the cost of risk, realized risk, and then you've got partner fees.

你有人员成本，你有风险成本，已实现的风险，然后你还有合作伙伴费用。

Nilan Peiris: And so if you've got this mission of moving the world's money for almost nothing, or zero, as close to zero as you can, you've got to invest as much of your cashflow in engineering to try to engineer away these three problems.

Nilan Peiris：因此，如果你的使命是几乎免费或零地转移世界资金，尽可能接近于零，那么你必须将尽可能多的现金流投资于工程，以试图解决这三个问题。

So just to take them through briefly a bit, and remember, we're trying to do this 10 times better than anyone else.

因此，请简单介绍一下，请记住，我们正在努力比其他任何人做得好 10 倍。

So how do you really change the experience on each of them?

那么，如何真正改变每个人的体验呢？

Nilan Peiris: I'll cover a couple with you.

Nilan Peiris：我会和你介绍几个。

So let's do the risk one first.

所以让我们先做一下风险。

There's two risks we have.

我们面临两个风险。

We have have FX risk, you come to Wise you see your rate, and then you may send us the money a little later.

我们有外汇风险，您来到 Wise 看到您的汇率，然后您可以稍后再给我们汇款。

If you're moving a million dollars, you can't usually move it instantly.

如果您要转移一百万美元，通常无法立即转移。

It might take you two to three days to move it.

移动它可能需要两到三天的时间。

The rate's locked, could move against us, we'd lose some money.

利率被锁定，可能会对我们不利，我们会损失一些钱。

Nilan Peiris: So that cost, if you look back, so we've halved that cost over the last few years, and you can imagine through understanding the bits of the product, they generate exposure, and limiting it, and a bunch of algorithms behind that.

Nilan Peiris：所以，如果你回顾过去，我们在过去几年中将成本减半，你可以想象通过了解产品的各个部分，它们会产生曝光并限制它，以及背后的一堆算法。

But the more inspiring stuff is the people costs, and the partner costs, go through each of these one at a time.

但更鼓舞人心的是人员成本和合作伙伴成本，每次都要考虑其中的每一项。

Nilan Peiris: So the people costs are our customer service team, operations teams.

Nilan Peiris：所以人员成本是我们的客户服务团队、运营团队。

But I like to think of that as the cost of poor quality.

但我喜欢将其视为低质量的成本。

So you bring up customer support if the products are clear, you hire lots of people in the back office.

因此，如果产品明确，您就可以提供客户支持，并在后台雇用很多人。

If you haven't automated it.

如果你还没有自动化它。

We get like 20% improvement year on year as we're doing that.

当我们这样做时，我们的业绩同比提高了 20%。

But come back to your question, how do you step change that?

但回到你的问题，你如何改变这一点？

How do you do a 10x better experience?

如何打造 10 倍更好的体验？

Nilan Peiris: I'll share with you a story from Singapore.

Nilan Peiris：我将与您分享一个来自新加坡的故事。

It's quite a fun one.

这是一件非常有趣的事。

Because we went to Singapore about six, seven years ago, and , we asked for a license.

因为我们大约六、七年前去了新加坡，所以我们要求获得许可证。

We had 20,000 people on the wait list, or so, saying, "Wise, please come to Singapore." And we went there, we asked the regular, "Hey, can you give us a license?" They gave us the license, but they said, "You have to physically meet every single customer."

我们有大约 20,000 人在等待名单上，他们说：“明智的，请来新加坡。”我们去了那里，我们问常客，“嘿，你能给我们许可证吗？”他们给了我们许可证，但他们说，“你必须亲自见到每一位客户。”

Nilan Peiris: Face-to-face.

尼兰·佩里斯：面对面。

And this happens, this is...

而这种情况发生了，这是...

Remember, they're banks that people use.

请记住，它们是人们使用的银行。

So people go into banks usually, and you get face-to-face verified when you open a bank account.

所以人们通常会去银行，当你开立银行账户时，你会得到面对面的验证。

We're like, "You don't need to do this in Australia, in the UK, in other countries around the world." They're like, "In Singapore, for your license, you need to do this." So we actually sent a small team out to Singapore, and we opened an office through , and customers...

我们说，“你不需要在澳大利亚、英国、世界其他国家这样做。”他们就像是，“在新加坡，为了获得执照，你需要这样做。”所以我们实际上派了一个小团队到新加坡，我们通过 开设了一个办事处，客户......

You went through this really slick flow, and then you got invited in to come see the team.

你经历了这个非常流畅的流程，然后你被邀请来看看团队。

Nilan Peiris: And customers hated it, and it was really expensive, obviously.

Nilan Peiris：顾客讨厌它，而且显然它真的很贵。

Nilan Peiris: But the magic was we got the customers not to complain to us, but to complain to the government.

Nilan Peiris：但神奇的是，我们让顾客不再向我们抱怨，而是向政府抱怨。

And it took a year of lobbying, and a year of building, doing something unscalable effectively, before we got the world's first EKYC license in Singapore.

我们花了一年的游说和一年的建设，有效地做了一些无法扩展的事情，才在新加坡获得了世界上第一个 EKYC 许可证。

So you could take a selfie, picture of your ID, and then you could get verified.

所以你可以拍一张自拍照，拍一张你的身份证照片，然后你就可以得到验证。

Nilan Peiris: And that's what I call a 10x better experience than anyone else in the market, and that led to advocacy and word of mouth off the back of it.

Nilan Peiris：我称之为比市场上其他任何人都好 10 倍的体验，这带来了宣传和口碑。

And that loop of getting your customers to help was also one of the learnings of word of mouth.

让客户提供帮助的循环也是口碑传播的教训之一。

Lenny: Was the product team involved?

Lenny：产品团队参与其中了吗？

Were you involved in that on the ground stuff?

你参与过实地工作吗？

Or was it like ?

或者是这样的吗？

Nilan Peiris: Yeah, yeah.

尼兰·佩里斯：是的，是的。

Generally when we go , we're running cross-functional teams, but this is a verification team.

一般来说，当我们去的时候，我们正在运行跨职能团队，但这是一个验证团队。

The team actually would verify the docs when you sent it to us.

当您将文档发送给我们时，团队实际上会对其进行验证。

They went out to Singapore, verified them onsite, face-to-face.

他们前往新加坡，现场面对面核实。

Nilan Peiris: So the fun bit here is why would customers help a company?

Nilan Peiris：所以这里有趣的一点是为什么客户会帮助公司？

And this is one of the other learnings on word of mouth.

这是关于口碑的其他教训之一。

The way I think about this is that there are the rational reasons why people recommend, which we've covered.

我的想法是，人们的推荐是有合理原因的，我们已经对此进行了介绍。

But there's these emotional ones as well.

但也有这些情感因素。

Softer ones people would call brand.

较软的人们称之为品牌。

I prefer to call it on the mission.

我更喜欢在任务中称呼它。

Nilan Peiris: So we do our mission, which is to make the world's money move instantly at the touch of a button, for almost nothing.

Nilan Peiris：因此，我们履行我们的使命，即只需按一下按钮，就能让世界上的资金立即流动，而且几乎不需要任何成本。

It was a very personal thing, it was like an internal company thing, to think our customers cared about it.

这是一件非常私人的事情，就像公司内部的事情一样，认为我们的客户关心它。

And then we rebranded like eight, nine years ago, our first rebrand, and we wrote our mission and sent it to our customers.

然后我们像八、九年前那样进行了品牌重塑，这是我们的第一次品牌重塑，我们写下了我们的使命并将其发送给我们的客户。

Nilan Peiris: We got more new customers from that email being forwarded around than any other kind of marketing.

Nilan Peiris：我们从转发的电子邮件中获得的新客户比任何其他类型的营销都多。

And I show this when I talk at conferences.

当我在会议上发言时，我会展示这一点。

This email broke all the rules of marketing.

这封电子邮件打破了所有营销规则。

It didn't have a call to action, it didn't have a button to sign up, it didn't have anything in it, but people just forwarded it around saying, "You should check out Wise."

它没有号召性用语，没有注册按钮，里面没有任何内容，但人们只是转发它说：“你应该看看 Wise。”

Nilan Peiris: And it's not all the customer base, but there was a proportion of the customer base that this resonated in.

Nilan Peiris：这并不是所有客户群，但有一部分客户群对此产生了共鸣。

And I think it's the authenticity within which they could see that we were genuinely trying to....

我认为这是他们可以看到我们真诚地努力的真实性......

Trying to bring the prices down was a scheme to help us grow faster, which is kind of where it started out, was actually genuinely because founders, they were really upset about how much it cost to money.

试图降低价格是一个帮助我们更快发展的计划，这就是它的起点，实际上是因为创始人对金钱的成本感到非常沮丧。

Nilan Peiris: They found good ways to solve that problem, and they're still really passionate about solving that problem.

Nilan Peiris：他们找到了解决这个问题的好方法，而且他们仍然对解决这个问题充满热情。

And they could see that authenticity flows through the whole company, because we got a...

他们可以看到整个公司的真实性，因为我们有......

When you look at Wise, we're full of people on visas, and immigrants, and people that have worked, and live around the world, and struggled with this problem, and are passionate about solving it.

当你看看 Wise 时，你会发现我们到处都是持签证的人、移民、以及在世界各地工作和生活过的人，他们都在与这个问题作斗争，并热衷于解决它。

And so they wanted to help us solve it.

所以他们想帮助我们解决这个问题。

So the second part of this word of mouth engine is for us, we managed to get this mission thing to work.

所以这个口碑引擎的第二部分是为我们准备的，我们设法让这个任务发挥作用。

Nilan Peiris: So somehow we emotionally connect our cause, and then I see going, taking a step back, getting 10x better on price is through our customers helping us do it, which gets us even cheaper, which then brings more customers, that then creates this flywheel that's spins around.

Nilan Peiris：因此，我们在情感上将我们的事业联系起来，然后我看到，退后一步，通过我们的客户帮助我们做到这一点，价格提高 10 倍，这让我们更便宜，然后带来更多的客户，然后创建这个旋转的飞轮。

Lenny: What a flywheel you guys have built.

莱尼：你们造的飞轮多棒啊。

This reminds me of a lot of different things.

这让我想起了很多不同的事情。

One is you talked about how there's the reality of the things people need, and then there's this soft, fuzzy stuff that's harder to quantify.

一是你谈到了人们需要的东西是如何存在的，然后是这些软的、模糊的东西，很难量化。

I actually is the framework just like that on that product I talked about of instant booking.

我实际上就是像我谈到的即时预订产品上的框架一样。

Lenny: I kind of built a roadmap around the reality of what people actually need in order to feel comfortable, guests booking instantly.

莱尼：我围绕人们实际需要的现实制定了一个路线图，以便让客人立即预订感到舒适。

And then I call it the perception, what are their fears about letting guests book instantly?

然后我称之为感知，他们对让客人立即预订有什么恐惧？

And there's a lot of work to just convince them, you think you're going to get all these guests that are really scary or whatever, but in reality it never happens.

要说服他们，你需要做很多工作，你认为你会得到所有这些非常可怕的客人或其他什么，但实际上这永远不会发生。

It's really rare something bad happens, and if it does, we're going to cover it.

发生不好的事情确实很少见，如果发生了，我们将予以报道。

Lenny: So, I think that's a really cool framework when you're trying to get people to adopt something, is think about what do they actually need?

莱尼：所以，我认为当你试图让人们采用某些东西时，考虑一下他们真正需要什么，这是一个非常酷的框架？

And then how do you convince them of the things that are just in their head?

那么你如何让他们相信他们脑子里的想法呢？

And it sounds like the win there was kind of this sharing your mission and your values as a business.

这听起来像是分享你作为一个企业的使命和价值观的胜利。

Nilan Peiris: Yeah, it just sounds, again very tweedy, right?

Nilan Peiris：是的，听起来又很粗花呢，对吧？

Tweedy, like sounds very corporate, sounds like it's never going to work, but I think it's also...

Tweedy，听起来很企业化，听起来好像永远行不通，但我认为这也是……

I mean, Airbnb, the authenticity is there.

我的意思是，Airbnb，真实性就在那里。

People are passionate about making that experience work for both sides of the marketplace.

人们热衷于让这种体验为市场双方带来好处。

It's kind of clear.

有点清楚了。

So, I'm kind of taking a step back, personally very passionate about customer-led growth, and how that turns into shareholder value.

因此，我有点后退一步，我个人非常热衷于以客户为主导的增长，以及如何将其转化为股东价值。

Nilan Peiris: So, taking a step back, where every business I've ever worked in, it's always got these two lists, a list of things to do for your customers, and then it's got a list of things to do to make money.

Nilan Peiris：所以，退一步来说，我工作过的每家企业都总是有这两个清单，一个是为客户做的事情的清单，然后是一个赚钱的事情的清单。

And you generally do everything you need to do to make money, and you do two things with the customer list, and you go, "Customer led business." And then, neat thing about wise, and I'm pretty sure you'll see the same thing on Airbnb is, we just had one list, which is this list of things that you need to do to make customers happy, and it's prioritized by impact on the really hard things.

通常，你会做所有你需要做的事情来赚钱，你会根据客户名单做两件事，然后你就会开始“客户主导的业务”。然后，关于明智的事情，我很确定你会在 Airbnb 上看到同样的事情，那就是，我们只有一个清单，这是你需要做的让客户满意的事情清单，并且它是根据对真正困难的事情的影响来优先排序的。

And if you do these really hard things, they have an incredible impact for customers, but hence on your growth, and on your shareholder value.

如果你做了这些非常困难的事情，它们会对客户产生难以置信的影响，从而对你的成长和股东价值产生难以置信的影响。

Lenny: That is really interesting.

莱尼：这真的很有趣。

Airbnb is not quite like that.

Airbnb 不完全是这样。

It's actually become more like that with a lot of just like, "Let's build awesome products and not focus on experiments as much." So that's really interesting that prioritization basically at Wise came from, "What are people telling us?" I guess let me ask actually, how did you know what the impact would be on customers?

实际上，它变得更像是这样，有很多类似的说法，“让我们构建出色的产品，而不是过多地关注实验。”所以这真的很有趣，Wise 的优先级基本上来自于“人们告诉我们什么？”我想实际上让我问一下，你怎么知道这会对客户产生什么影响？

How did you decide?

你是怎么决定的？

Is it frequency of how often people request it?

是人们请求的频率吗？

Is it, "We need to lower the cost, and so we're just going to prioritize the things that will lower prices most?"

是不是，“我们需要降低成本，所以我们只会优先考虑最能降低价格的事情？”

Nilan Peiris: Definitely on the journey at the beginning, you are into split testing, right?

Nilan Peiris：在一开始的旅程中，您肯定会进行对比测试，对吗？

Let's try to take apart a split test on price.

让我们尝试对价格进行对比测试。

So, you've systemically dropped the cost.

因此，您已经系统性地降低了成本。

Imagine we drop the cost.

想象一下我们降低了成本。

The question is, do we drop the price?

问题是，我们要不要降价？

Do we pass that all on to customers?

我们会将这些全部转嫁给客户吗？

And do we keep some of it?

我们保留其中一些吗？

And split testing on the price thing, if the split test is going to mean you end up with more revenue, it means you drop the price by 10%, and there happened to be that day, more than 10% more customers in the market who, they saw the price at one pound, but they see the price at 90p, at 10% lower, and they're like, "I wasn't going to shift at buy at one pound but I'm going to buy it 90p."

对价格问题进行对比测试，如果对比测试意味着你最终会获得更多收入，则意味着你将价格降低 10%，而那天，市场上的客户数量增加了 10% 以上，他们看到的价格是 1 英镑，但他们看到的价格是 90 便士，低 10%，他们会说，“我不会改变以 1 英镑购买的价格，但我会以 90 便士的价格购买。”

Nilan Peiris: So this is pretty hard to do this.

Nilan Peiris：所以这很难做到。

This word around conviction is one I use a lot, where you build this conviction that price is what matters.

我经常使用“信念”这个词，它让你相信价格才是最重要的。

And through this incremental split test, you will take a long time to go there, but at some point you kind of go, "Actually I've got enough conviction." So there's one kind of strategic bet at the heart of Wise.

通过这种增量对比测试，你将需要很长时间才能到达那里，但在某些时候你会说，“实际上我已经有足够的信念了。”因此，Wise 的核心是一种战略赌注。

That is if we have the lowest cost platform, and it's really fast, and really high quality, the world's volume will switch to us.

也就是说，如果我们拥有成本最低的平台，而且速度非常快、质量非常高，那么全世界的销量都会转向我们。

And just marginally getting there step by step by step, and trying to track the incremental return is actually slower.

一步一步地勉强达到目标，并试图追踪增量回报实际上会更慢。

And there's a point that comes that you go, "I feel really comfortable investing in price.

到了某个时候，你就会说：“我对价格投资感到非常舒服。

I feel comfortable investing in speed, because I know it's going to pay back, and not necessarily this month, but eventually it will, and I need to make gains on all three levers in order to get there." Does that make sense?

我对投资速度感到放心，因为我知道它会得到回报，不一定是本月，但最终会得到回报，而且我需要在所有三个杠杆上都获得收益才能实现这一目标。”这有道理吗？

Lenny: Yeah, absolutely.

莱尼：是的，绝对是。

So essentially, in that track of work, instead of everything that you did to reduce price, there wasn't an experiment to see, "What impact does this have on growth, or revenue?" Instead, it's just, "We know reducing price is going to help us grow, and so we're just going to track how much we're cutting price." And that's essentially the goals, I imagine, were just cut the price by some amount, find a way to make it this much cheaper every, say, quarter, or year.

因此，从本质上讲，在这项工作中，你并没有采取一切措施来降低价格，而是没有进行实验来了解“这对增长或收入有何影响？”相反，它只是，“我们知道降价将有助于我们的增长，所以我们只是要跟踪我们降价的幅度。”我想，这本质上是目标，只是将价格降低一定程度，找到一种方法，使其每个季度或每年便宜得多。

Nilan Peiris: Yeah, that's it.

尼兰·佩里斯：是的，就是这样。

You got it.

你明白了。

And that conviction is core.

这种信念是核心。

That extends to our product management approach on the UX.

这延伸到了我们在用户体验上的产品管理方法。

So this is a great line for use internally, I'm sure you've heard it, "You can't split test your way to love." So, this experiment led product management approach, where you throw a bunch of things on the wall, and then you kind of see what sticks, and generally we don't advocate this.

所以这是一句非常适合内部使用的台词，我相信你已经听过，“你不能用分裂测试你的爱方式。”所以，这个实验引导了产品管理方法，你把一堆东西扔到墙上，然后你看看什么能粘住，一般我们不提倡这样做。

Obviously there's a bit of it that happens, but generally don't advocate it.

显然，确实有一些这样的情况发生，但通常不提倡这样做。

Mainly because engineering is expensive, and you can actually figure out what matters to customers through other means.

主要是因为工程成本很高，而且你实际上可以通过其他方式找出对客户来说重要的事情。

Some of the techniques we've talked, and build it.

我们讨论过一些技术并构建它。

Nilan Peiris: There's a story I like to share.

Nilan Peiris：我想分享一个故事。

I had a product manager join our refer a friend team, viral growth team, and invite team, and after a quarter, I said, "So what are you going to build?" And he's like, "I'm going to test everything.

我让一位产品经理加入我们的推荐朋友团队、病毒式增长团队和邀请团队，一个季度后，我说：“那么你要构建什么？”他说：“我要测试一切。

I'm going to test the landing page, I'm going to test the subject line, I'm going to test the program so I don't know yet till run through all the tests, then I'm going to come back and tell you what I'm going to build."

我要测试登陆页面，我要测试主题行，我要测试程序，所以在完成所有测试之前我还不知道，然后我会回来告诉你我要构建什么。”

Nilan Peiris: I said, "You're not going to do this.

尼兰·佩里斯：我说，“你不会这样做。

I'm going to give you three weeks and you're going to pick one thing to change, but you're going to go talk to people, and get quantitative insights, and build your own gut feel around what matters, and then launch it, and submit, test it, and see if it works." But this thing of building conviction on what matters, and I watch how teams slowly build this and you need the data there to make sure it doesn't become a hubris, right?

我会给你三个星期的时间，你要选择一件事来改变，但你要和人们交谈，获得定量见解，并围绕重要的事情建立自己的直觉，然后启动它，提交，测试它，看看它是否有效。”但是，在重要的事情上建立信念，我观察团队如何慢慢地建立它，你需要那里的数据来确保它不会变得傲慢，对吗？

That enables you to make much bigger changes than just experimenting away, and it forces you to get clear on what actually is the problem to solve here, and how do I solve it really, really well?

这使你能够做出比仅仅进行试验更大的改变，并且它迫使你弄清楚这里实际上要解决的问题是什么，以及我如何真正很好地解决它？

Does that make sense, Lenny, Do you disagree?

这有道理吗，莱尼，你不同意吗？

It's a bit provocative there.

那里有点挑衅。

Some people are pretty strong in the expert led approach.

有些人非常擅长专家主导的方法。

Lenny: No, there's many ways to do it.

莱尼：不，有很多方法可以做到。

There's no right way, and it's working.

没有正确的方法，但它有效。

So I'm not going to argue.

所以我不会争论。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Masterworks, the premier art investing platform, where some everyday investors have earned a 35% net return.

Lenny：这一集是由顶级艺术投资平台 Masterworks 为您带来的，一些日常投资者在该平台上获得了 35% 的净回报。

Yes, a 35% net return alongside 16 other exits, including 10 and 17% net returns.

是的，净回报率为 35%，还有其他 16 个退出，包括 10% 和 17% 的净回报率。

Contemporary art has outpaced the S&P 500 by 136% over the last 27 years.

过去 27 年里，当代艺术的表现比标准普尔 500 指数高出 136%。

Citibank and Deloitte have reported that contemporary art has performed well as an inflation hedge, and the appreciation is almost entirely uncorrelated to other financial markets.

花旗银行和德勤报告称，当代艺术在通胀对冲方面表现良好，而且升值几乎与其他金融市场完全不相关。

Even the CEO of BlackRock, Larry Fink, has said it's one of the greatest stores of wealth internationally.

就连贝莱德的首席执行官拉里·芬克也表示，它是国际上最大的财富宝库之一。

However, there's never been a way to invest in it practically without spending millions.

然而，从来没有一种方法可以在不花费数百万美元的情况下对其进行实际投资。

But now Masterworks allows almost anyone to invest in works by artists like Banksy, Basquiat, and Monet.

但现在 Masterworks 几乎允许任何人投资班克斯、巴斯奎特和莫奈等艺术家的作品。

Lenny: In fact, Masterworks latest exit just last month delivered another double-digit annualized net return for their investors since the New York Times first reported on them in 2019, they've grown to over 800,000 users, and had some new offerings sell out in literal minutes.

Lenny：事实上，自 2019 年《纽约时报》首次报道以来，Masterworks 上个月的最新退出为投资者带来了两位数的年化净回报，他们的用户数量已超过 80 万，而且一些新产品在短短几分钟内就被抢购一空。

But you get special access and can jump the wait list queue at masterworks.art/lenny.

但您可以获得特殊访问权限，并且可以在 masterworks.art/lenny 上跳过等候名单队列。

As with any investment, past performance is not indicative of future performance.

与任何投资一样，过去的表现并不代表未来的表现。

Investing involves risk.

投资涉及风险。

See important regulations and disclosures and aggregate advisory performance masterworks.com/cv.

请参阅重要法规和披露以及汇总咨询绩效 masterworks.com/cv。

Again for special access to skip the wait list, go to masterworks.art/lenny.

同样，要获得跳过等待名单的特殊权限，请访问 masterworks.art/lenny。

Lenny: So, what I'm hearing essentially, the experimentation culture at Wise is instead of just run, test everything that you're thinking about, throw out a bunch of ideas and see how they go, it's more, "Let's just decide we believe in this idea, and let's go bigger there, and run an experiment.

莱尼：所以，我所听到的本质上是，Wise 的实验文化不仅仅是运行，测试你正在考虑的一切，抛出一堆想法，看看它们如何进行，更重要的是，“让我们决定相信这个想法，让我们做得更大，然后进行实验。

Maybe not even." Is that roughly how you think about it?

也许甚至都不是。”你大概是这么想的吗？

Nilan Peiris: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

尼兰·佩里斯：是啊，是啊，是啊，是啊。

And is that something that you've seen yourself in practice elsewhere?

您在其他地方也曾见过这样的做法吗？

Lenny: It's interesting how many parallels there are to Airbnb, because this is what Airbnb is doing now.

Lenny：有趣的是，这与 Airbnb 有很多相似之处，因为这就是 Airbnb 现在正在做的事情。

There's been a shift recently, where instead of everything is very data experiment driven, it's very just like, "Let's build really great products that the founders are really excited about, and that the execs are hearing from people.

最近发生了一个转变，一切都不是由数据实验驱动的，而是非常像，“让我们构建真正伟大的产品，创始人对此感到非常兴奋，并且高管们正在听取人们的意见。

Let's just build things that are awesome and launch them, and we believe things will grow." And Airbnb is doing great.

让我们创造出很棒的东西并推出它们，我们相信事情会发展。”Airbnb 做得很好。

Nilan Peiris: Yeah, the challenge of this is because it does become this risk thing of where it's like, okay, it's someone's opinion, so I think it's X, right?

Nilan Peiris：是的，这个挑战是因为它确实变成了一种风险，就像，好吧，这是某人的意见，所以我认为这是 X，对吗？

And everyone thinks they're kind of Steve Jobs type thing.

每个人都认为他们是史蒂夫·乔布斯类型的人。

Nilan Peiris: You have some way of using data to get this conviction, and show why this is what we should do, but try to learn how to build that faster CME, slight difference.

Nilan Peiris：您可以通过某种方式使用数据来获得这一信念，并说明为什么这是我们应该做的，但尝试学习如何构建更快的 CME，略有不同。

So, it's less product managers or me saying, "Hey guys, I think it's X." It's generally data driven, and qualitative insights driven as well.

所以，不再是产品经理或我说，“嘿伙计们，我认为这是 X。”它通常是数据驱动的，也是定性洞察驱动的。

Lenny: Personally, I would always index towards running experiments just to put this out there, but I think in this case, it makes sense, where you just know, "We need to do these three things, just make it cheaper, make it faster." You don't need to AB test every idea there.

莱尼：就我个人而言，我总是会索引运行实验只是为了把它放在那里，但我认为在这种情况下，这是有道理的，你只需要知道，“我们需要做这三件事，只是让它更便宜，让它更快。”你不需要对每个想法进行 AB 测试。

Probably the main downside of not testing everything is you may be hurting things along the way, and you may not know it.

不测试所有东西的主要缺点可能是你可能会一路伤害事情，而你可能不知道。

Nilan Peiris: I mean, yeah, so we definitely do...

Nilan Peiris：我的意思是，是的，所以我们肯定会......

So you're right.

所以你是对的。

But there's a very different thing to when you look at the...

但当你看到这一切时，情况却大不相同……

From a sample size perspective, you want to do a beta, and understand the negative impact.

从样本量的角度来看，您想要进行测试，并了解负面影响。

It's a holdout group that's smaller, than a test to get a significance.

这是一个比获得重要性的测试更小的坚持小组。

It's quite define the criteria to know whether something is breaking, is generally a different thing to say, is this a material result in a test?

它完全定义了判断某些东西是否损坏的标准，通常是不同的说法，这是测试中的材料结果吗？

Yeah.

是的。

Lenny: And along those lines, the other benefit of experimentation is you know the impact.

莱尼：沿着这些思路，实验的另一个好处是你知道其影响。

And so, team members can understand, "Here's what I did this quarter, this year." How do you think about just like performance reviews, and people's impact, and that kind of thing?

因此，团队成员可以理解，“这就是我今年本季度所做的事情。”您如何看待绩效评估、人们的影响以及诸如此类的事情？

Nilan Peiris: Yeah, that's a good one.

Nilan Peiris：是的，这是一件好事。

This one is definitely an ongoing debate.

这绝对是一场持续不断的争论。

So, I generally ask teams what's their impact?

所以，我通常会问团队他们的影响是什么？

So, every quarter, every team, what...

所以，每个季度，每个团队，什么...

or Kristo will ask, "What did you ship?" And I generally ask, "How many people used it?

或者克里斯托会问：“你运送了什么？”我通常会问：“有多少人使用过它？

What was the impact on volume?" Et cetera.

对成交量有什么影响？”等等。

And we have analyst teams that can answer this either with pre-post analysis, all kinds of techniques, or all through split tests.

我们的分析师团队可以通过事前分析、各种技术或全部通过对比测试来回答这个问题。

We generally have this, the debate is where the analysis slows us down, and we wouldn't make a decision off the back of the analysis.

我们通常都会遇到这样的情况，争论是分析减慢我们速度的地方，我们不会在分析的基础上做出决定。

Nilan Peiris: And then, this generally is what you said, where the team needs a validation, mainly for themselves, and maybe a little performance, but not too much.

Nilan Peiris：然后，这通常就是您所说的，团队需要验证，主要是针对他们自己，也许还有一点表现，但不是太多。

And so, there were ways in which you can maybe get some read on it that isn't quite as strong as a split test, which we'd use in these things.

因此，您可能可以通过一些方法来了解它，但这些方法不如我们在这些事情中使用的拆分测试那么强大。

It's more just getting some...

更多的只是得到一些...

You can understand that people worried when you do split tests that slow down the release of something, but in order to get impact, if you know you're not going to roll it back, then okay, you should just roll it out, and try to reduce the need for that validation.

你可以理解，当你进行分割测试时，人们会担心会减慢某些东西的发布速度，但为了产生影响，如果你知道你不会将其回滚，那么好吧，你应该将其推出，并尝试减少验证的需要。

Lenny: I think that there's an interesting correlation between products that grow through word of mouth, and less need to experiment with everything.

莱尼：我认为通过口碑传播的产品之间存在着有趣的相关性，并且不需要尝试所有的东西。

Airbnb is also actually 70% of growth is word of mouth from the last stat that I heard.

根据我上次听到的统计数据，Airbnb 70% 的增长实际上是通过口碑传播的。

And then you think about all these social consumer apps, they mostly grow through people sharing with their friends, and a lot of them come from just the founder's intuition of what a great product's going to be.

然后你想想所有这些社交消费应用程序，它们大多是通过人们与朋友分享而成长的，其中很多都来自创始人对伟大产品的直觉。

I think about Snapchat, and the recent mobile social apps.

我想到了 Snapchat 和最近的移动社交应用程序。

And so I think maybe there's something there about just as a founder, trusting your gut more often.

所以我认为，作为创始人，也许需要更多地相信自己的直觉。

But then it becomes difficult as you grow.

但随着你的成长，它就会变得困难。

You have to delegate, and then you have to trust people on your team making the right decisions.

你必须授权，然后你必须相信团队中的人会做出正确的决定。

I guess, is there anything there that you've learned about just trusting individual product teams to make decisions that you can't for sure know are positive or negative without running experiments?

我想，您是否已经了解到，仅信任各个产品团队做出的决定，而您在不进行实验的情况下无法确定是积极的还是消极的？

Nilan Peiris: So, as I say, almost everything we do, we have some way of understanding the impact.

Nilan Peiris：所以，正如我所说，几乎我们所做的每一件事，我们都有某种方式来理解其影响。

So, that's always there.

所以，那总是存在的。

We definitely have things where the team does something where Kristo or I will say, "This is just crazy.

我们肯定有一些事情，团队做了一些事情，克里斯托或我会说，“这太疯狂了。

There's no way they're going to use this." And then we have a culture where people are encouraged to do these things, if they believe in it.

他们不可能使用这个。”然后我们有一种文化，鼓励人们做这些事情，如果他们相信的话。

Nilan Peiris: Yeah, a couple.

Nilan Peiris：是的，一对。

So the one that my head of SEO always talks about is a currency converter.

所以我的 SEO 主管经常谈论的就是货币转换器。

So, the Wise homepage is a pretty good currency converter.

所以，Wise主页是一个相当不错的货币转换器。

It's got a decent one on there.

那里有一个像样的。

There's tons of traffic on currency converter.

货币转换器上有大量流量。

So, if you click Wise link, now it's a little bit hidden on send, it's there.

因此，如果您单击 Wise 链接，现在它在发送时有点隐藏，它就在那里。

It's pretty cool.

非常酷。

Currency converter.

货币转换器。

Lenny: Oh I see it at the bottom there.

莱尼：哦，我看到它在底部。

Yeah, it's like .

是的，就像是。

Nilan Peiris: But if you Google currency converter, there's tons of traffic, and that converter on the Wise homepage obviously includes our price, and lets you sign up.

Nilan Peiris：但是如果你用谷歌搜索货币转换器，就会发现有大量的流量，而且 Wise 主页上的转换器显然包含了我们的价格，并且可以让你注册。

And so, should we build a currency convertor?

那么，我们应该建立一个货币转换器吗？

Should we try to capture this traffic?

我们应该尝试捕获这种流量吗？

Is it more effective to try to push our own product there?

尝试在那里推销我们自己的产品是否更有效？

And you can kind of understand why it was Kristo, actually not me, that was like, "This is a crazy idea." And the founder, and the SEO team went out and built it, and it's huge now, in terms of visits.

你可以理解为什么是克里斯托，实际上不是我，就像，“这是一个疯狂的想法。”创始人和 SEO 团队出去建立了它，现在就访问量而言，它已经很大了。

I think we've got a currency convertor app out there.

我想我们已经有一个货币转换器应用程序了。

I think we've got out there, and yeah, people discover wise through that, as an example of off-topic traffic, but that's a good example of one of those things where yeah, the founder said, "No," or, "That's' a bad idea," and we kind of went ahead, and did it anyway.

我认为我们已经做到了，是的，人们通过这一点发现了明智的做法，作为偏离主题的流量的一个例子，但这是一个很好的例子，是的，创始人说，“不”，或者，“这是一个坏主意”，我们继续前进，无论如何都做到了。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

I'm just thinking about broadly all the things we've been talking about.

我只是广泛地思考我们一直在谈论的所有事情。

There's a couple of things that were floating around in my head.

有几件事在我脑海中浮现。

One is, reminds me of Amazon, where Jeff Bezos realized there are things that are going to be always true with Amazon.

一是让我想起了亚马逊，杰夫·贝佐斯意识到有些事情对于亚马逊来说永远是正确的。

People always want cheaper prices, they want faster shipping.

人们总是想要更便宜的价格，他们想要更快的运输。

And I think there's something else.

我认为还有其他事情。

And it feels like you guys found the same sort of thing.

感觉你们发现了同样的事情。

What are the three things people always want with a money transfer product?

人们对于汇款产品始终想要的三件事是什么？

And let's just make those as incredible as possible, and in your eyes, make them 10 times better than what anyone else has out there.

让我们尽可能地让这些变得令人难以置信，并在你看来，让它们比其他人的产品好 10 倍。

Nilan Peiris: Yeah, totally.

尼兰·佩里斯：是的，完全可以。

The business one example is relevant, and use it a lot when we talk to investors in the market, public helps validate this low cost, cutting price story.

商业例子是相关的，当我们与市场上的投资者交谈时，我们经常使用它，公众有助于验证这一低成本、降价的故事。

What's interesting is what changed though.

有趣的是发生了什么变化。

So we started with transfers, but we got to account, and then we got to enterprise.

所以我们从转账开始，但我们要记账，然后我们要进入企业。

Just what changed was we realized with account, if you just have to move $10, you're not going to download an app and do it.

改变的只是我们通过帐户意识到，如果您只需转移 10 美元，您就不会下载应用程序并执行此操作。

If you do it once, you're just going to do it in your bank.

如果您这样做一次，您只需在银行中进行即可。

And so, that was a little bit of the insight behind building the Wise account, and we kind of focused on, there's a real problem with international banking.

因此，这就是建立 Wise 账户背后的一些见解，我们关注的是国际银行业务存在一个真正的问题。

Nilan Peiris: So, really good example is for businesses.

Nilan Peiris：所以，对于企业来说，这确实是一个很好的例子。

So if you are a business, say, in...

因此，如果您是一家企业，比如说，在...

Say a business in Europe, you've got a customer in Australia, and you want to get paid, you send them an invoice in Euros, and someday, some money's going to turn up in your account, you're like, "I don't know." They paid you an AUD, it got changed by three banks on the way through.

假设欧洲的一家企业，你在澳大利亚有一个客户，你想获得报酬，你向他们发送欧元发票，有一天，一些钱会出现在你的帐户中，你会说，“我不知道。”他们付给你澳元，途中被三个银行更改了。

You don't know what it is.

你不知道那是什么。

What you'd love to do is invoice them in AUD, and get AUD in your bank account.

您想要做的就是用澳元向他们开具发票，并将澳元存入您的银行帐户。

You might even have people who need to pay in AUD, so you have to call to keep it there.

您甚至可能有人需要用澳元付款，因此您必须打电话将其保留在那里。

But to get an Australian bank account, I found out, you need to fly to Australia, you need to incorporate a business in Australia, you need to go to a bank with all those papers, and then they will give you an Australian bank account number.

但我发现，要获得澳大利亚银行账户，您需要飞往澳大利亚，您需要在澳大利亚注册一家企业，您需要携带所有这些文件去银行，然后他们会给您一个澳大利亚银行帐号。

Nilan Peiris: So with Wise, you can get an Australian bank account number with three clicks.

Nilan Peiris：通过 Wise，您只需点击三下即可获得澳大利亚银行帐号。

Anyone can, and any business can, and you get an Australian balance, and a US, and a UK, and a Swiss bank.

任何人都可以，任何企业都可以，你会得到澳大利亚的余额、美国的银行、英国的银行和瑞士的银行。

And this is killer for businesses that receive money internationally.

这对于在国际上收款的企业来说是致命的。

And then the next big jump we did, and for consumers, so there are plenty of people, if all your banking is in the US, you probably shouldn't use Wise, but if you're somebody who uses another currency a lot, then you probably should use us as your primary bank.

然后我们做了下一个大的跳跃，对于消费者来说，所以有很多人，如果你所有的银行业务都在美国，你可能不应该使用 Wise，但如果你是经常使用另一种货币的人，那么你可能应该使用我们作为你的主要银行。

Nilan Peiris: There's some people, for example, who live in one country and get paid in another currency, and this is...

Nilan Peiris：例如，有些人生活在一个国家并以另一种货币获得报酬，这是......

Wise is great as an account for managing that.

Wise 非常适合作为管理该帐户的帐户。

And we found with that, we got about...

我们发现，我们得到了......

As we launched the account in markets, it was about a 20 to 30% more volume, cross-border volume coming into Wise from that market.

当我们在市场上推出该账户时，从该市场流入 Wise 的跨境交易量增加了约 20% 至 30%。

Just a good example of how, while it's not price, not speed, you could argue is kind of ease of use, but we had to evolve it in order to get to the next tranche of the market.

这只是一个很好的例子，说明虽然不是价格，不是速度，但你可以说它是一种易用性，但我们必须改进它才能进入下一个市场。

Does that make sense, Lenny?

这有道理吗，莱尼？

Lenny: Absolutely.

莱尼：当然。

And it all just comes back from what would be the theoretical ideal situation for people transferring money, say from Australia.

这一切都来自人们转账的理论上的理想情况，比如来自澳大利亚的转账。

And what I'm hearing is just find all the little friction points that get in the way.

我听到的是找到所有阻碍的小摩擦点。

In this case you're like, "Okay, we'll create you an Australian bank account, and you don't even worry about it."

在这种情况下，你会说，“好吧，我们将为你创建一个澳大利亚银行账户，你甚至不用担心。”

Nilan Peiris: Yeah, that's exactly it.

Nilan Peiris：是的，就是这样。

And so now then you have all these other problems, because we've got about $12.5 billion in deposits now, which is like a time.

所以现在你有所有这些其他问题，因为我们现在有大约 125 亿美元的存款，这就像一段时间。

And the next problem customers are at is, "I want a return." And we quite deliberately don't have a banking license.

客户面临的下一个问题是“我想要退货”。我们故意没有银行执照。

You have to figure out, how are we going to solve that?

你必须弄清楚，我们要如何解决这个问题？

We now put customers money in government bonds, US bonds, and when you pay with your card, it dynamically sells those bonds.

现在，我们将客户的资金投入政府债券、美国债券，当您用卡付款时，它会动态出售这些债券。

And that's how we give you an interest rate, in roundabout 5% right now, given where bond rates are.

这就是我们给您提供利率的方式，根据债券利率，目前约为 5%。

Lenny: Yeah, interest rates are quite high, for better or worse.

莱尼：是的，无论好坏，利率都很高。

Zooming out a little bit, for folks that are starting to...

对于那些开始……的人来说，缩小一点。

Their wheels are turning, they're like, "Okay, I want to think about word of mouth, driving word of mouth.

他们的轮子在转动，他们就像，“好吧，我想考虑口碑，推动口碑。

I'm going to go look at my survey results.

我要去看看我的调查结果。

I'm going to figure out these pillars that are driving word of mouth.

我将找出这些推动口碑传播的支柱。

I'm going to think about how to make things 10 times better." Just broadly, for someone that's starting to approach this, what would you say to them?

我会考虑如何让事情变得更好 10 倍。”广义上来说，对于那些开始着手解决这个问题的人，你会对他们说什么？

How should they approach this?

他们应该如何处理这个问题？

Any major learnings at a higher level, of just how to drive word of mouth for a product?

关于如何提高产品的口碑，有什么更高层次的主要学习内容吗？

Nilan Peiris: I think it just comes back to talking to customers and this is the question we've kept coming back to.

Nilan Peiris：我认为这只是回到与客户交谈，这是我们一直在讨论的问题。

What would it take to make it 10x better?

怎样才能让它好 10 倍？

And then you get clear in your head what it would take, and then it's usually the thing that everyone's looked at before and thought, it's the thing that's impossible.

然后你脑子里就会清楚这需要什么，然后这通常是每个人之前都看过并认为是不可能的事情。

One more example is on the partner side.

还有一个例子是在合作伙伴方面。

So, rather than find a cheaper bank for a banking partner, you think, well, the cheapest banking partner is the central bank.

因此，您认为最便宜的银行合作伙伴是央行，而不是为银行合作伙伴寻找更便宜的银行。

And imagine you're a startup.

想象一下您是一家初创公司。

How the hell do you get a bank account at the central bank?

怎么才能在央行开户呢？

Nilan Peiris: But that kind of thinking, and we now have a bank account at the Bank of England, the National Bank of Singapore, Bank of Australia.

Nilan Peiris：但是这种想法，我们现在在英格兰银行、新加坡国家银行、澳大利亚银行都有银行账户。

And each of these was as hard as getting that face-to-face verification thing in Singapore.

每一项都与在新加坡进行面对面验证一样困难。

It took years of lobbying, and all kinds of stuff, in order to make it happen.

为了实现这一目标，我们花了多年的游说和各种努力。

But it's setting your goal all the way up there.

但它一直在设定你的目标。

That's what enables you to build a 10x better product.

这就是让您能够构建出质量提高 10 倍的产品的原因。

That's what gets you to the word of mouth.

这就是让你获得口碑的原因。

So, the first step is getting super clear on what's the problems that my customers are caring about, worrying about?

因此，第一步是非常清楚我的客户关心、担心的问题是什么？

And then once you're clear there, as you said, how can I solve that completely, and what's the best it could possibly be?

然后，一旦你清楚了，正如你所说，我怎样才能彻底解决这个问题，最好的办法是什么？

And then the hard bit is figuring out how to move that.

然后困难的部分是弄清楚如何移动它。

Lenny: A lot of these things you're talking about are just, they sound like they are either impossible, like no way we're going to achieve that, or really, really hard.

莱尼：你谈论的很多事情听起来都像是不可能的，就像我们不可能实现这一目标，或者真的很难。

And a lot of companies, and a lot of founders, teams are just like, "Okay, we're not ever going to create a bank here.

很多公司、很多创始人、团队都会说，“好吧，我们永远不会在这里创建一家银行。

We're not going to be able to create an Australian bank account for everyone." What is it about your culture, or approach to these problems that you think that's unique to Wise that's like, "No, we're going to spend three years figuring this out, because it's that important?"

我们不可能为每个人创建一个澳大利亚银行账户。”你的文化或解决这些问题的方法是什么，你认为这是 Wise 独有的，比如，“不，我们将花三年时间来解决这个问题，因为它是如此重要？”

Nilan Peiris: I think it's two .

Nilan Peiris：我认为是两个。

So one is, definitely the founders have this philosophy that unless you're doing something hard and new, it's kind of a waste of time.

所以，创始人肯定有这样一种理念：除非你在做一些困难和新的事情，否则这就是浪费时间。

So, I think that also kind of runs through the culture.

所以，我认为这也贯穿于文化之中。

So, it's quite a rude awakening when people join Wise, because they're like, "Okay, I'm going to come, and just play around with a few things." You're like, "No, actually, the culture of the product team is we're super incentivized to do the hard things, and that's what's rewarded."

所以，当人们加入 Wise 时，这是一个相当猛烈的觉醒，因为他们会说，“好吧，我要来，只是玩一些东西。”你会说，“不，实际上，产品团队的文化是我们非常有动力去做困难的事情，这就是奖励。”

Nilan Peiris: And that's quite hard to create the air cover.

Nilan Peiris：创建空气掩护非常困难。

You can imagine like then in the early days and months when growth was slow, and people turned on the money taps in marketing, and you're trying to keep focused and plugging your away up these hard things, it's quite hard also to get the management cover in order to let the teams keep doing this.

你可以想象一下，在早期和几个月里，增长缓慢，人们在营销中打开了资金水龙头，而你试图保持专注并塞满这些困难的事情，也很难获得管理层的支持，以便让团队继续这样做。

And then it's also hard just to turn up to work and really keep...

然后，仅仅去上班并真正坚持下去也很困难……

You can imagine being in Singapore, verifying customers face-to face, thinking, "This is going nowhere, this is going nowhere, this is going nowhere." And then suddenly it changes.

你可以想象在新加坡，面对面验证客户的情况，心想：“这不会有任何进展，这不会有任何进展，这不会有任何进展。”然后突然情况发生了变化。

So that's what progress very much feels like at Wise.

这就是 Wise 进步的感觉。

And we try to recognize that, and create a culture that enables that.

我们试图认识到这一点，并创造一种能够实现这一点的文化。

Lenny: It feels like there's also just a lot of patience for these things.

莱尼：感觉对这些事情也有很大的耐心。

There isn't like, "We need to hit this quarterly goal.

不会有这样的情况：“我们需要实现这个季度目标。

Why aren't we creating banks in Singapore yet?"

为什么我们还没有在新加坡创建银行呢？”

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

The other kind of metaphor that's rolling around my head is something Seth Godin talks about.

我脑海中浮现的另一种隐喻是赛斯·戈丁（Seth Godin）谈到的。

I don't know if you've heard of this guy, he's a marketing guru, and he has this concept that you want to build something that's remarkable, because if something is remarkable, it'll spread.

我不知道你是否听说过这个人，他是一位营销大师，他有这样的理念：你想要打造一些非凡的东西，因为如果某件事是非凡的，它就会传播开来。

And if you think about the word remarkable, it's something worth remarking about, which essentially is word of mouth.

如果你想到“卓越”这个词，你会发现它是值得一提的，它本质上是口碑传播。

Lenny: And so that's his kind of mission and his, I don't know, advice to people is build something remarkable, something people will want to remark about.

莱尼：这就是他的使命，我不知道，他给人们的建议是打造一些非凡的东西，人们会想要评论的东西。

And clearly, you all have been doing that.

显然，你们都一直在这样做。

And that's actually a good segue to where I wanted to go, which is around how you structure your team, and how you incentivize the team, organize teams, to achieve all these sorts of things.

这实际上是我想要去的地方的一个很好的延续，即围绕如何构建团队，以及如何激励团队、组织团队来实现所有这些目标。

So, maybe just broadly, is there something unique to how you think about work structure, incentives, goals, things like that, in order to achieve these really hard things?

那么，也许从广义上讲，为了实现这些真正困难的事情，你对工作结构、激励措施、目标等的看法是否有独特之处？

Nilan Peiris: There's two unique lenses on this.

Nilan Peiris：这有两个独特的镜头。

One is in the macro-structure and one is in the micro-structure.

一是宏观结构，一是微观结构。

So at the macro level, if you look at actually international banks, they don't really exist.

因此，在宏观层面上，如果你看看实际上的国际银行，你会发现它们实际上并不存在。

I'm not sure if you've moved around between countries, but say you open a bank account with Citibank in the US, and then you go to Citibank in the UK, your Citibank account doesn't exist in the UK.

我不确定你是否在不同国家之间流动过，但是假设你在美国的花旗银行开设了一个银行账户，然后你去了英国的花旗银行，你的花旗银行账户在英国不存在。

You have to go to Citibank in the UK, and open a Citibank account.

你必须去英国的花旗银行，开一个花旗银行账户。

And actually, turns out, with some of these banks, to move money between your bank accounts is an international transfer.

事实上，事实证明，对于其中一些银行，在银行账户之间转移资金是一种国际转账。

It's crazy.

太疯狂了。

Nilan Peiris: So, when you take a step back, and look at how the market looks, you have at one end, international banks which are local tech stacks.

Nilan Peiris：所以，当你退后一步，看看市场的情况时，你会发现，国际银行是当地的技术堆栈。

So there's a core banking system in the US, and one in the UK, and one in Europe, say for Citibank, or for HSBC, but they have deep local integrations, so they're directly integrated in the payment system.

因此，美国有一个核心银行系统，英国有一个，欧洲有一个，比如花旗银行或汇丰银行，但它们有深入的本地集成，所以它们直接集成到支付系统中。

Citibank in the US has got relationships, say, with the Federal Reserve, et cetera.

美国的花旗银行与美联储等都有关系。

Nilan Peiris: Other end of the spectrum you've got something like PayPal.

Nilan Peiris：在频谱的另一端，您可以使用 PayPal 之类的东西。

So it's a tech company, it's got a single global tech stack.

所以它是一家科技公司，拥有单一的全球技术堆栈。

It doesn't run a additional version of PayPal in Australia than to the US, but it doesn't have deep connections.

与美国相比，它在澳大利亚没有运行额外版本的 PayPal，但也没有深厚的联系。

It hasn't got five central bank accounts, it hasn't got any of that.

它没有五个中央银行账户，一个都没有。

And I'd like to think of in the middle, you've got Wise, where we have a single global tech stack, and we have deep local infrastructure.

我想在中间想到，你有 Wise，我们拥有单一的全球技术堆栈，并且我们拥有深厚的本地基础设施。

Nilan Peiris: Now, from a technological perspective, just take a step back and think through this.

Nilan Peiris：现在，从技术角度来看，退一步思考一下这个问题。

This is actually non-trivial to figure out how to design.

弄清楚如何设计实际上并不简单。

So, let's take something like the onboarding flow.

那么，让我们以入职流程为例。

So, we have global product teams, one part of product teams called global product teams.

所以，我们有全球产品团队，产品团队的一部分称为全球产品团队。

So we have a single onboarding flow that will give you a Wise account, and it's the same code that runs, whether you are in Brazil, New York, or Australia.

因此，我们有一个单一的入职流程，可以为您提供一个 Wise 帐户，并且无论您是在巴西、纽约还是澳大利亚，运行的代码都是相同的。

Nilan Peiris: The regulation in Australia and Brazil is really different, and it isn't black and white in any country.

Nilan Peiris：澳大利亚和巴西的监管确实不同，而且任何国家都不是黑白分明的。

So, there's a bunch of...

所以，有一堆...

You get a bunch of things you just shouldn't do in terms of letting people get so people who shouldn't get access to accounts.

你得到了一堆你不应该做的事情，让人们得到所以不应该访问帐户的人。

And then you can need to check these people aren't using it, and different jurisdictions have completely different requirements.

然后您可能需要检查这些人是否在使用它，并且不同的司法管辖区有完全不同的要求。

Example is Japan, you have to take a picture of that front of the ID, the back of the ID, and the side of your ID.

以日本为例，你必须拍摄身份证正面、身份证背面和身份证侧面的照片。

It's the only country in the world that you have to do this.

这是世界上唯一一个你必须这样做的国家。

Nilan Peiris: And imagine you're the product manager for onboarding, and someone tells you, "Design the onboarding flow to give somebody a bank..." Just imagine gathering all the requirements from every country in the world, because there's very little similarity.

Nilan Peiris：想象一下，您是入职产品经理，有人告诉您，“设计入职流程，为某人提供银行……”想象一下，收集世界上每个国家/地区的所有要求，因为几乎没有相似之处。

You can't just say, "I take the US," and copy it somewhere else.

你不能只是说“我选择美国”，然后把它复制到其他地方。

It's very, very, very different.

这是非常、非常、非常不同的。

Nilan Peiris: It'd take forever to try to get that, and then normalize that into the main model, and try to figure out how you're going to structure the data around this.

Nilan Peiris：要花很长时间才能尝试得到这一点，然后将其规范化到主模型中，并尝试弄清楚如何围绕它构建数据。

So, it then becomes like, what is the organization structure that enables us to discover what the domain model, let's call it that, for the onboarding flow should look like.

那么，接下来的问题就变成了，让我们能够发现入门流程的域模型（我们称之为域模型）应该是什么样子的组织结构是什么。

And you end up with a global product team that owns overall KPIs around conversion rate, et cetera.

最终您将拥有一个全球产品团队，该团队拥有围绕转化率等方面的总体 KPI。

And you have local, regional teams that own the conversion rate, and the cost to do KYC for their market, and they contribute to the global product code base.

您拥有本地区域团队，负责掌握转化率以及为其市场进行 KYC 的成本，并且他们为全球产品代码库做出贡献。

Nilan Peiris: So we have weak product ownership, where anyone can make code change, and pull requests, and these guys owning the vision in the center.

Nilan Peiris：所以我们的产品所有权很弱，任何人都可以更改代码并拉取请求，而这些人拥有中心的愿景。

But the only way that vision can evolve is by getting the feedback from these guys in the market, as they're constantly pushing stuff forward.

但愿景得以发展的唯一方法是获得市场上这些人的反馈，因为他们不断推动事物向前发展。

And through that process, artifacts start emerging, where other markets are like Japan, and so you start splitting off that, and creating subtypes for it, and slowly the model emerges from there.

通过这个过程，工件开始出现，其他市场就像日本一样，所以你开始将其分离，并为其创建子类型，慢慢地模型就会从那里出现。

Nilan Peiris: And so with this structure, the thing to optimize for is a really hard one.

Nilan Peiris：对于这种结构，优化是一件非常困难的事情。

That problem that every global business has, is how do you get this collaboration to work between the local and the global?

每个全球企业都面临的问题是，如何让本地和全球之间的协作发挥作用？

But unlike every other business, most businesses solve this probably as you know, is you usually have the US, and then you have international.

但与其他企业不同的是，大多数企业可能会解决这个问题，正如您所知，通常有美国，然后有国际。

And international is usually a bump site, where everyone's arguing to get their thing prioritized, right?

国际通常是一个碰撞点，每个人都在争论优先考虑他们的事情，对吗？

Nilan Peiris: Whereas here, you're kind of letting the local teams commit directly to the code base, and then this global team's got this challenge of doing this, and we over time create sub-teams around parts of the regionalization of the structure, around different objects as they emerge.

Nilan Peiris：而在这里，你让本地团队直接致力于代码库，然后这个全球团队面临着这样做的挑战，随着时间的推移，我们围绕结构的区域化部分、围绕出现的不同对象创建子团队。

But that broadly speaking is the first problem, the global problem.

但从广义上讲，这是第一个问题，即全球问题。

And the other bit with us is this is quite unique to us, because most fintechs out there are usually in one market.

我们的另一点是，这对我们来说非常独特，因为大多数金融科技公司通常都在一个市场。

Like you take Robin Hood, it was in the US, it came to the UK, they went back to the US.

就像罗宾汉一样，它在美国，它来到英国，他们又回到了美国。

You take Monzo, only the UK, N26 only in Europe, Up in Australia, China, and the US.

比如 Monzo，仅在英国，N26 仅在欧洲，Up 在澳大利亚、中国和美国。

And that's because their home markets are so big, and one regulator is a ton of work to manage.

这是因为他们的国内市场太大了，一个监管机构需要管理大量的工作。

And the second complexity we have is we have all of these markets we have to be in, because we're international by default.

我们面临的第二个复杂性是我们拥有我们必须进入的所有这些市场，因为我们默认是国际化的。

So a lot of our thinking is where do we take that, turn that into competitive advantage, and which customer base really needs that?

因此，我们的很多想法是我们如何将其转化为竞争优势，以及哪些客户群真正需要它？

Which is what zooms us into that positioning on the international account.

这就是我们在国际账户上的定位的原因。

Lenny: It just comes back to again, and again, again and again, doing the hard thing, knocking peoples' socks off, and it feels like that's the formula for Wise.

莱尼：它只是一次又一次地回来，做困难的事情，让人们大吃一惊，感觉这就是怀斯的公式。

Nilan Peiris: I think yeah, you more or less got it.

Nilan Peiris：我想是的，你或多或少已经明白了。

So that's one bit on structure.

这就是结构上的一点。

So this global local thing, and the second one has been a bit more of a journey.

所以这个全球本地化的事情，以及第二个更像是一段旅程。

So when we started early on, we ran in autonomous independent teams, all focused on KPIs, and these KPIs rolled up to make it cheaper, make it faster, make it easier to use.

因此，当我们早期开始时，我们在自治的独立团队中运行，所有团队都专注于 KPI，并将这些 KPI 汇总起来以使其更便宜、更快、更易于使用。

You can imagine like a KPI tree, and teams around bits of their KPIs, and every quarter they talk through how they move their KPI, et cetera, and this kind of worked.

您可以想象一棵 KPI 树，团队围绕其 KPI 的各个部分，每个季度他们都会讨论如何移动 KPI 等等，这种方法很有效。

And the way we ran our planning is, every quarter every team would stand up and talk through its plan, get feedback from other teams, and then move on.

我们执行计划的方式是，每个季度每个团队都会站起来讨论其计划，获得其他团队的反馈，然后继续前进。

This worked till we got to 30 teams, and then you go from doing this in the afternoon, to doing it in two days and it's just like whoa.

这种方法一直有效，直到我们有 30 个团队，然后你从下午做到两天内完成，这就像哇哦。

Nilan Peiris: So, we started heading towards the Spotify model, where we group the teams in squads, and into tribes.

Nilan Peiris：所以，我们开始转向 Spotify 模式，我们将团队分为小队和部落。

Today, I think that autonomy is at the squad level.

今天，我认为自主权是在球队层面上的。

So the squads are around products.

所以团队是围绕产品展开的。

So, we'll have a Wise account squad, a business squad, a Wise platform, our enterprise product squad, you'll have a North Am squad that looks after the North American product, and Lat Am squad, et cetera.

因此，我们将拥有一个 Wise 客户团队、一个业务团队、一个 Wise 平台、我们的企业产品团队，还有一个负责北美产品的北美团队和拉丁美洲团队等等。

And then financial crime fighting, et cetera.

然后是打击金融犯罪等等。

Nilan Peiris: And inside those squads you've got the teams, and the squad...

Nilan Peiris：在这些球队中，有球队，还有球队......

Imagine you're the director for the Wise account, but you don't have a vision for the account.

想象一下，您是 Wise 客户的总监，但您对该客户没有愿景。

You've got to say where it's going.

你必须说出它要去哪里。

You've got to keep your teams on track against it.

你必须让你的团队保持在正轨上。

The teams aren't off doing whatever they want.

团队不会为所欲为。

They kind of need to be on track, versus the overall vision, and you're accountable for the results of that squad.

他们需要走上正轨，而不是整体愿景，而你要对该球队的结果负责。

And squads are in tribes, the tribe provides overall leadership, and a slight, light touch strategy on the squads.

而小队是部落的，部落提供全面的领导，对小队有轻微的、轻微的接触策略。

And that's more or less our structure, and how we've evolved towards it.

这或多或少就是我们的结构，以及我们如何朝着这个结构发展。

Lenny: Is there anything else along the word of mouth concept that you think would be useful for people to share?

莱尼：您认为口碑传播概念中还有什么其他内容对人们分享有用吗？

Either how you think about it, team structure, anything else?

您如何看待这个问题，团队结构，还是其他什么？

Nilan Peiris: There's one tiny bit I'll share, which was around marketing and referral.

Nilan Peiris：我要分享一点点，那就是营销和推荐。

This was super interesting for me.

这对我来说非常有趣。

So, we've been running it, like Airbnb, we've been running referral program for now 12 years, and after 12 years, you've kind of tested everything anyway.

所以，我们一直在运行它，就像 Airbnb 一样，我们已经运行推荐计划 12 年了，12 年后，你已经测试了一切。

And like I said, by this point you have literally tested everything.

正如我所说，此时您实际上已经测试了所有内容。

So when somebody comes up with something that has a 300% increase, you're like, "Whoa, that's super interesting.

因此，当有人想出一个可以提高 300% 的产品时，你会说，“哇，这太有趣了。

What just happened?"

刚刚发生了什么？”

Nilan Peiris: And yeah, I'll share this one, because it's interesting.

Nilan Peiris：是的，我会分享这个，因为它很有趣。

So we run many variants of refer a friend, where you'll get different kinds of benefit.

因此，我们提供多种推荐朋友的方式，您将获得不同类型的好处。

We tried chocolate, we tried money, we've tried $200, $500, $10, you get some, I get some money, all kinds of things.

我们尝试过巧克力，我们尝试过金钱，我们尝试过200美元、500美元、10美元，你得到一些，我得到一些钱，各种各样的东西。

More or less headed towards three for $100, generally it's a sweet spot.

或多或少会花 100 美元买三个，一般来说这是一个最佳选择。

Anyway, it's a pretty creative PM there.

不管怎样，这是一位非常有创意的PM。

And he was again talking to customers, and he spotted this thing, which is pretty cool, which is when you do a transfer with Wise, at the end you get this email, the email says, "Well done." Then it says, "Your money's there in the other person's account, and you saved $10 on this transfer." And he got this insight, which was pretty awesome, was he realized that people believed they saved money, but they didn't believe the number.

他再次与客户交谈，他发现了这件事，这很酷，当你通过 Wise 进行转账时，最后你会收到这封电子邮件，电子邮件上写着：“干得好。”然后它说：“你的钱在别人的账户里，你在这次转账中节省了 10 美元。”他意识到人们相信他们省了钱，但他们不相信这个数字，这真是太棒了。

And he then thought, what would it take to get them to believe the number?

然后他想，怎样才能让他们相信这个数字呢？

Nilan Peiris: And so the fun bit was the approach.

Nilan Peiris：有趣的是方法。

So then him and a designer sat there and they sketched out an alternative email, and they went down to the coffee shop downstairs, and they showed it to people, and they said...

然后他和一位设计师坐在那里，草拟了一封替代电子邮件，然后他们去了楼下的咖啡店，向人们展示了它，他们说……

Just asked them what they thought, and they kept iterating it until they got to a graph.

只是问他们的想法，他们不断迭代，直到得到图表。

And this graph is like this...

这张图是这样的......

When you go through a money transfer thing, it pops up in places, behind the compare button.

当您进行汇款操作时，它会在比较按钮后面的某个地方弹出。

And this graph shows with your bank, when you send, how much is in the rate hidden as...

这张图显示了您的银行，当您发送时，利率中隐藏了多少...

This is how much you're sending, this is how much they're taking in the rate in a fee, and this is how much you can see in the fee, because the fees are hidden in the rates with banks.

这是您要发送的金额，这是他们在费率中收取的费用，这是您可以在费用中看到的金额，因为费用隐藏在银行费率中。

And then this is with Wise.

然后这是怀斯的事。

Nilan Peiris: And they iterate this graph to the point that people looked at like, "Oh my God, I'm never using my bank again.

Nilan Peiris：他们重复这张图表，以至于人们看起来就像是，“天哪，我再也不会使用我的银行了。

This number...

这个数字...

This is crazy." And then they put this graph on the success page when you did a transfer.

这太疯狂了。”然后，当您进行转账时，他们会将这个图表放在成功页面上。

Saying, "You saved this." And put a share button in there, and invite your friends button, and that's what really drove it.

说：“你救了这个。”在那里放一个分享按钮，邀请你的朋友按钮，这才是真正的推动力。

And when you fast-forward to today, we've now got...

当你快进到今天时，我们现在......

So it's actually quite hard.

所以实际上是相当困难的。

So, we now have I think about 70 bank accounts around the world.

所以，我想我们现在在世界各地有大约 70 个银行账户。

So, I think the top three accounts, banks in the world, where we log onto every day, and then we log the price and the quote for a bunch of different routes into a file.

所以，我认为世界上排名前三的账户是我们每天登录的银行，然后我们将一堆不同路线的价格和报价记录到一个文件中。

You can imagine how hard is.

你可以想象有多难。

I think I personally have about 17 of these still in my name, that I've opened up around the world to help the team get going.

我个人认为，我名下仍有大约 17 个这样的项目，我已在世界各地开放这些项目，以帮助团队继续前进。

But that's kind of one of the biggest word of mouth growth, or referral insights.

但这是最大的口碑增长或推荐见解之一。

I've got to this comparison thing, made into our marketing, made into our homepage, just went everywhere up from that insight.

我已经将这种比较的事情纳入了我们的营销，纳入了我们的主页，从这种洞察力开始到处走走。

Lenny: And you said that that like 3x'd the sharing rate?

莱尼：你说这相当于共享率的 3 倍？

Nilan Peiris: Yeah, that 3x'd the sharing rate.

Nilan Peiris：是的，共享率提高了 3 倍。

So we always had the share button after you completed a transfer.

因此，在您完成转账后，我们始终会提供分享按钮。

But putting that there with this graph, and that kind of got me to this, I'm curious on your take on this, on this definition of product marketing, where customers use the product, and they think they got this value, but when they actually know the value they get.

但是把它和这张图放在一起，这让我想到了这一点，我很好奇你对此的看法，对产品营销的定义，客户使用产品，他们认为他们获得了这个价值，但当他们真正知道他们获得的价值时。

So we got this on speed as well, where we're doing instant transfers, and customers wouldn't know it was instant.

因此，我们也在速度上做到了这一点，我们正在进行即时转账，而客户不会知道这是即时的。

Nilan Peiris: So when you get an instant transfer, there's like this wizzy animation at the end, and you kind of know the money's in the other person's account, ready to spend.

Nilan Peiris：因此，当您进行即时转账时，最后会出现这样的动画，您就知道钱在对方的帐户中，准备花掉。

And again, you see this big jump in referral rate when that happens, but people need to know it's happened.

再说一次，当这种情况发生时，你会看到推荐率大幅上升，但人们需要知道它已经发生了。

And closing this delta between what you've done, and what's perceived to be done is what I call product marketing within the product.

缩小你所做的事情和人们认为要做的事情之间的差距就是我所说的产品内的产品营销。

And that in its own right is a discipline, I've learned.

我了解到，这本身就是一门学科。

Lenny: That's an awesome insight.

莱尼：这是一个很棒的见解。

It comes back to this framework we talked about of reality and perception, in a flip way, instead of getting people to adopt something, it's to appreciate the work you've done to make it remarkable, to make them understand how remarkable it really is.

回到我们谈到的现实和感知的框架，换个角度来说，不是让人们采用某些东西，而是欣赏你为让它变得非凡所做的工作，让他们理解它到底有多么非凡。

Nilan Peiris: Yeah, that was it.

尼兰·佩里斯：是的，就是这样。

And that's something I'm continuously learning about yeah, as we go, as well.

这也是我在不断学习的过程中不断学习的东西。

Lenny: That is extremely interesting.

莱尼：这非常有趣。

Before we get to our very exciting lightning round, I know you also do a bunch of charity work, and I wanted to give you a chance to share what you're doing there.

在我们开始激动人心的闪电回合之前，我知道您还做了很多慈善工作，我想给您一个机会分享您在那里所做的事情。

Nilan Peiris: Thanks, Lenny.

尼兰·佩里斯：谢谢，莱尼。

So, less charity, essentially came out of angel investing, is probably the way to say it.

因此，慈善事业的减少，本质上来自于天使投资，可能就是这样的说法。

So I invest in startups, generally fintechs, mission led founders, word of mouth type stuff, all the stuff we've been talking about, that I'm passionate about.

所以我投资于初创公司，通常是金融科技公司、使命主导的创始人、口碑类型的东西，所有我们一直在谈论的、我热衷的东西。

It is less investing, more helping, and yeah, just getting through the angel route.

投资更少，帮助更多，是的，刚刚走完天使之路。

And then over time, I realized the thing I'm most passionate about is market failures.

随着时间的推移，我意识到我最热衷的事情就是市场失灵。

So generally I find that the invisible hand means most human needs get fulfilled by the market, but there are a few things that don't, and there's a couple of exciting startups out there who work really hard in this space.

所以一般来说，我发现“看不见的手”意味着大多数人类需求都得到了市场的满足，但也有一些事情没有得到满足，并且有一些令人兴奋的初创公司在这个领域非常努力。

A couple are Beam in the UK, working on homelessness, Affinity and Neobank in Ghana.

英国的 Beam 夫妇在加纳为无家可归者、Affinity 和 Neobank 工作。

And so, this type of thing is stuff I'm most passionate about.

所以，这类事情是我最热衷的事情。

So, if any of your listeners out there know anyone doing anything of that kind, trying to solve these kinds of hard problems, definitely reach out, always keen to talk.

因此，如果你的任何听众知道有人在做类似的事情，试图解决这些难题，一定要伸出援手，总是热衷于交谈。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

And we'll link to those two you mentioned in the show notes just in case people want to check them out.

我们将链接到您在演出笔记中提到的这两个，以防万一人们想查看它们。

With that, we've reached our very exciting lightning round.

至此，我们进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。

Are you ready?

你准备好了吗？

Lenny: Let's do it.

莱尼：我们开始吧。

What are two or three books that you've recommended most to other people?

您向其他人推荐最多的两三本书是什么？

Nilan Peiris: Two, one's at the other ends of the spectrum.

Nilan Peiris：两个，一个处于光谱的另一端。

So one is...

那么一个是...

This sounds terribly pretentious Crime and Punishment, and the other one is Midnight's Children by Salman Rushdie.

这听起来非常自命不凡的《罪与罚》，另一部是萨尔曼·拉什迪的《午夜之子》。

I read a lot, I'm very passionate about reading, fiction, mainly.

我读了很多书，我非常热衷于阅读，主要是小说。

I don't read...

我不读书...

Nonfiction is too much like work.

非小说类作品太像工作了。

And so, I generally need to read before I go to bed to decompress my brain.

所以，我通常需要在睡觉前读书来给大脑减压。

It's generally escapist type stuff.

这通常是逃避现实的东西。

But I'm curious what you think of this, but for me authors are people that create people with words.

但我很好奇你对此有何看法，但对我来说，作家是用文字创造人的人。

Nilan Peiris: Like you say artist is a good artists if it's...

Nilan Peiris：就像你说的，艺术家如果是......

Makes a good likeness to somebody, but imagine that you create somebody with words, and that person feels real, so they have some insight into the human condition.

与某人非常相似，但想象一下你用文字创造了一个人，那个人感觉很真实，所以他们对人类的状况有一些洞察力。

And what's amazing is if you learn something about what it means to be human from reading that.

令人惊奇的是，如果你通过阅读这篇文章了解了作为人类的意义。

So at that end of the scale, Dostoevsky, Crime and Punishment, where this guy kills somebody, and it just eats him up.

所以在陀思妥耶夫斯基的《罪与罚》中，这个人杀了一个人，然后把他吃掉。

It's a pretty amazing book.

这是一本非常了不起的书。

It's not as heavy as it sounds, but books like that are pretty awesome.

它并不像听起来那么重，但是这样的书非常棒。

So, I recommend that a lot.

所以，我推荐很多。

Nilan Peiris: And the other end of the scale is sometimes you read a book and there's a single sentence where each word has been just stitched together, and it's like, again, a work of art, and there, Rushdie is probably the pinnacle for me, of Midnight's Children, which is about partition in India, which is pretty...

尼兰·佩里斯：天平的另一端是，有时你读一本书，里面有一个句子，每个单词都被缝合在一起，这又像是一件艺术品，对我来说，拉什迪可能是《午夜之子》的巅峰之作，这本书是关于印度的分裂的，这很漂亮……

Through a metaphor, it's pretty amazing.

通过一个比喻，这是相当神奇的。

Lenny: It's a beautiful answer.

莱尼：这是一个很好的答案。

What is a favorite recent movie or TV show?

最近最喜欢的电影或电视节目是什么？

Nilan Peiris: Oh gosh, I am not...

尼兰·佩里斯：天哪，我不是……

I don't love got TV, but we had rented Barbie for the kids.

我不喜欢电视，但我们为孩子们租了芭比娃娃。

That one, probably the last movie.

那一部，可能是最后一部电影。

Lenny: I just watched that too.

莱尼：我也刚刚看了。

So good.

超好的。

Lenny: You can actually stream it now.

莱尼：你现在实际上可以直播了。

I don't know when this comes out, but it just-

我不知道这是什么时候出来的，但它只是——

Lenny: Yeah, you can watch it at home.

莱尼：是的，你可以在家看。

But it's not cheap.

但它并不便宜。

I think it's like 20 bucks in the US.

我记得在美国大概是20块钱。

Lenny: What is a favorite interview question you like to ask candidates when you're interviewing them?

莱尼：当你面试应聘者时，你最喜欢问他们的面试问题是什么？

Nilan Peiris: Yeah, so I only ask two.

Nilan Peiris：是的，所以我只问两个。

I got down to asking just two questions over time.

随着时间的推移，我只问了两个问题。

The first one's probably my favorite, which is, what is it that most frustrates you about...

第一个可能是我最喜欢的，即最让你沮丧的是什么......

Instead of why you're leaving, what frustrates you the most about where you're working right now?

不是你为什么要离开，而是你现在工作的地方最让你沮丧的是什么？

And this is as people always tell you why they want to join Wise, or join whatever company you're coming to, and that's not that interesting.

就像人们总是告诉你为什么他们想加入 Wise，或者加入你要加入的任何公司一样，这并不是那么有趣。

But what's interesting, trying to figure out, is what they're running away from.

但有趣的是，试图弄清楚他们在逃避什么。

And usually there's something broken there, that's really wound them up.

通常那里有东西坏了，这真的让他们很受伤。

But what's more interesting is they've been unable to fix it.

但更有趣的是他们无法修复它。

And so, in asking this question, and probing, you kind of get quite good at getting a sense of what is their limit, what's the thing they found, and what did they get stuck with?

因此，在提出这个问题和探究的过程中，你可以很好地了解他们的极限是什么，他们发现了什么，以及他们遇到了什么困难？

And you kind of think, "Okay, you're going to run into that here every day, every week?

你会想，“好吧，你每天、每周都会遇到这种情况吗？

Or...

或者...

You should be fine." And that's kind of why I ask that question.

你应该没事。”这就是我问这个问题的原因。

Lenny: I love that.

莱尼：我喜欢这个。

What is a favorite product you've recently discovered that you really like?

您最近发现并且真正喜欢的最喜欢的产品是什么？

Nilan Peiris: I recently switched to Arc Browser.

Nilan Peiris：我最近切换到 Arc 浏览器。

Nilan Peiris: And yeah, the onboarding flow was mind-blowingly good.

Nilan Peiris：是的，入职流程非常好。

Lenny: That's exactly how I felt.

莱尼：这正是我的感受。

I had to tweet about it.

我不得不发推文谈论它。

It's like, .

就像，。

Nilan Peiris: Yeah, I sent it to my onboarding team, and everyone.

Nilan Peiris：是的，我将其发送给了我的入职团队和每个人。

And what I loved about it is, it's clearly like if you could try to use Arc with the same way you use Chrome, you just get really frustrated.

我喜欢它的一点是，如果你尝试像使用 Chrome 一样使用 Arc，你就会感到非常沮丧。

But if you use it the way they want you to use, it'd be amazing.

但如果你按照他们希望你使用的方式使用它，那就太棒了。

So, for figuring out how to get people to engage with, you need to use this fundamentally differently.

因此，为了弄清楚如何让人们参与进来，您需要从根本上以不同的方式使用它。

They manage to almost get me to use it the right way.

他们几乎设法让我以正确的方式使用它。

Still struggling a little bit with it, but that I thought was really clever.

仍然有点挣扎，但我认为这真的很聪明。

Lenny: Awesome choice.

莱尼：很棒的选择。

We had Josh, the CEO of the Browser Company of New York, it's called, on the podcast.

我们的播客中有纽约浏览器公司的首席执行官乔什。

And if you're interested in learning about Arc's story, definitely check out that episode.

如果您有兴趣了解 Arc 的故事，请务必查看该集。

All right, next question.

好吧，下一个问题。

What is a favorite life motto that you like to repeat most to yourself, that you like to share?

您最喜欢对自己重复、最喜欢分享的人生格言是什么？

Anything come to mind?

有什么想到的吗？

Nilan Peiris: The thing that defines success is the speed at which you pick yourself up.

Nilan Peiris：成功的定义是你振作起来的速度。

Nilan Peiris: And that's the thing that I hold onto most, because you get knocked a lot, high growth company, and it's obviously quite...

Nilan Peiris：这是我最坚持的事情，因为高增长的公司会经常受到打击，而且它显然相当......

Obviously knocks you, when someone says no to an offer, when somebody leaves the company, when a product doesn't work as you think it should, when you get pushback from a partner.

当有人拒绝某个提议时、当有人离开公司时、当产品没有按你想象的那样工作时、当你受到合作伙伴的抵制时，你显然会感到震惊。

But yeah, if you lose four hours spinning around it, or you trying and figure out, "Okay, this happened, how do I move forward?" And just learning how to shorten that time has probably been one of the most important journeys for me.

但是，是的，如果你浪费了四个小时围绕它旋转，或者你试图弄清楚，“好吧，这件事发生了，我该如何继续前进？”对我来说，学习如何缩短时间可能是最重要的旅程之一。

Lenny: That was an awesome answer.

莱尼：这是一个很棒的答案。

One final question, is there a fun cultural ritual at Wise that has stuck around for a while?

最后一个问题是，怀斯是否有一种有趣的文化仪式已经存在了一段时间？

Nilan Peiris: This one, my team would love to say.

Nilan Peiris：我的团队很想说这个。

So, from the early days, we got everyone together from all around the world once a year.

因此，从早期开始，我们每年都会将来自世界各地的所有人聚集在一起。

Oh, I actually did it twice a year.

哦，实际上我一年做两次。

And the founders are from Estonia, and we have 5,000 people now, so we still have about 1,800 in Estonia.

创始人来自爱沙尼亚，我们现在有 5000 人，所以我们在爱沙尼亚还有大约 1800 人。

So it's cheaper to flavor on Estonia.

所以在爱沙尼亚调味更便宜。

So in the old days when it was winter, winter in Estonia is not fun, but summer in Estonia is amazing, and we still do this.

所以在过去还是冬天的时候，爱沙尼亚的冬天并不好玩，但爱沙尼亚的夏天却很棒，我们仍然这样做。

And the funnest bit about this is, I have a side hustle, DJ, so I get to DJ there, and it's quite fun, and embarrassing for my kids because technically I've now DJ'd in other countries.

最有趣的是，我有一份副业，DJ，所以我在那里做 DJ，这很有趣，但对我的孩子来说却很尴尬，因为从技术上讲，我现在已经在其他国家做过 DJ。

Nilan Peiris: That's it.

尼兰·佩里斯：就是这样。

That's my side hustle.

这是我的副业。

Nilan Peiris: That's how I introduced myself to my 17-year old's friends.

Nilan Peiris：我就是这样向 17 岁的朋友们介绍自己的。

So, yeah.

所以，是的。

Lenny: Do you have a DJ name?

莱尼：你有 DJ 的名字吗？

Is there...

有没有...

Can we check you out on Spotify?

我们可以在 Spotify 上查看您吗？

Nilan Peiris: No, no, you can't check me on Spotify or anything, but yeah, it's all private.

Nilan Peiris：不，不，你不能在 Spotify 或其他任何地方查看我，但是，是的，这都是私人的。

.

。

Lenny: All right.

莱尼：好吧。

Maybe Burning Man, you could see your performance next year.

也许火人节，你明年就能看到你的表演。

Lenny: Nilan, thank you so much for being here.

莱尼：尼兰，非常感谢你来到这里。

We talked a lot about word of mouth.

我们谈论了很多关于口碑的事情。

I feel like this episode is going to spread 100% through word of mouth.

我觉得这一集会通过口碑传播100%。

Can't wait for people to listen to it.

迫不及待地想让人们听到它。

Two final questions.

最后两个问题。

Where can folks find you online if they want to reach out, and how can listeners be useful to you?

如果人们想要联系您，可以在哪里找到您？听众如何对您有用？

Nilan Peiris: You can find me online on Twitter, nilanp, and always love to hear product feedback by email, by tweet, by LinkedIn.

Nilan Peiris：您可以在 Twitter、nilanp 上在线找到我，并且总是喜欢通过电子邮件、推文和 LinkedIn 听到产品反馈。

Generally by tweet is best, easiest for me to pick up, and my team to reach into directly.

一般来说，通过推文是最好的，对我来说最容易了解，而且我的团队也可以直接联系。

So, hit me up that way.

所以，就这样打我吧。

And most useful for me, yeah, product feedback, and as I said, other people working on hard problems that need help, do reach out.

对我来说最有用的是产品反馈，正如我所说，其他正在解决需要帮助的难题的人确实会伸出援手。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

Nilan, thank you so much for being here.

尼兰，非常感谢你来到这里。

Nilan Peiris: Thank you for your time.

尼兰·佩里斯：谢谢您的宝贵时间。

Take care, Lenny.

保重，莱尼。

Lenny: Bye everyone.

莱尼：大家再见。

Thank you so much for listening.

非常感谢您的聆听。

If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.

如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating, or leaving a review, as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes, or learn more about the show lennyspodcast.com.

您可以找到所有过去的剧集，或了解有关该节目的更多信息 lennyspodcast.com。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。