Building a long and meaningful career | Nikhyl Singhal (Meta, Google)
Nikhyl Singhal: When I was a kid and I was growing up in the Midwest, entertainment was like going to the dog tracks.
尼克尔·辛哈尔（Nikhyl Singhal）：当我还是个孩子的时候，我在中西部长大，娱乐就像去狗场一样。
The way that they motivated the dogs was they had these fake rabbits.
他们激励狗的方式是他们有这些假兔子。
These tails would go around faster than the dogs, which would then motivate the dogs to go around in circles.
这些尾巴会比狗转得更快，从而激励狗转圈。
And what was interesting is the moment that the dogs, if they accidentally touched the rabbit, they would never run again because there was like, "Well, what's next?
有趣的是，如果狗不小心碰到了兔子，他们就再也不会跑了，因为他们会想，“好吧，接下来会发生什么？
I've achieved what I was looking for." So I think this happens a ton, it's like your listeners are spending time focused on like, "Well, one day I will be X.
我已经实现了我所追求的目标。”所以我认为这种情况经常发生，就好像你的听众花时间专注于这样的事情，“好吧，有一天我会成为 X。
I will be that vice president.
我将成为那个副总统。
I will have more money.
我会有更多的钱。
I will have built something.
我会建造一些东西。
I will have started a company." But they don't think about what happens next.
我将创办一家公司。”但他们不会考虑接下来会发生什么。
What's the second thing?
第二件事是什么？
What's your career next look like?
你接下来的职业生涯是什么样的？
How do you ensure that you are always going to have something important and motivating to do with your career?
您如何确保在您的职业生涯中始终能够做一些重要且具有激励作用的事情？
Otherwise, you'll keep working because you know nothing else to do, but you'll be sadder or you'll find ways to create war when peace is needed.
否则，你会继续工作，因为你不知道还能做什么，但你会更加悲伤，或者在需要和平时你会想方设法制造战争。
Lenny: Welcome to Lenny's Podcast where I interview world-class product leaders and growth experts to learn from their hard one experiences building and growing today's most successful products.
莱尼：欢迎来到莱尼的播客，我在这里采访了世界一流的产品领导者和增长专家，从他们构建和发展当今最成功产品的艰辛经验中学习。
Today my guest is Nikhyl Singhal.
今天我的客人是尼克尔·辛哈尔。
Nikhyl has worked on and led large teams on four different influential consumer products including Facebook, Credit Karma, Google Hangouts, and Google Photos.
Nikhyl 曾参与并领导大型团队开发四种不同的有影响力的消费产品，包括 Facebook、Credit Karma、Google Hangouts 和 Google Photos。
Currently, he leads product teams for the Facebook app at Meta, overseeing groups, stories, messaging, and the feed.
目前，他在 Meta 领导 Facebook 应用程序的产品团队，负责监督群组、故事、消息传递和信息流。
Before that, he served as chief product officer at Credit Karma and held various leadership roles at Google.
在此之前，他曾担任 Credit Karma 的首席产品官，并在 Google 担任过各种领导职务。
Nikhyl has also co-founded three different startups, and as you'll hear in this episode, is extremely passionate about coaching and mentoring, sharing his knowledge through his newsletter and podcast called The Skip.
Nikhyl 还共同创立了三个不同的初创公司，正如您在本集中听到的那样，他对辅导和指导非常热衷，通过他的时事通讯和名为 The Skip 的播客分享他的知识。
Lenny: In our conversation, we cover all aspects of the PM career and what it takes to be successful at every stage of the journey, including the dangers of thinking too short term, the importance of avoiding what he calls ex-growth companies, why you're probably not getting promoted, what to focus on if you're a new manager, the rise of the senior IC path, also why top leaders often have huge development areas they don't know about and how to catch them, and also why people who make it to the top often run into serious mental health challenges.
Lenny：在我们的谈话中，我们涵盖了 PM 职业生涯的各个方面，以及在旅程的每个阶段取得成功所需的条件，包括考虑得太短的危险、避免他所说的前成长型公司的重要性、为什么你可能不会升职、如果你是新经理应该关注什么、高级 IC 路径的崛起、为什么高层领导者经常有他们不知道的巨大发展领域以及如何抓住这些领域，以及为什么晋升到最高层的人经常会遇到严重的问题。心理健康挑战。
As I say at the end of this episode, this might be my new favorite episode and I'm really excited to bring it to you.
正如我在本集结尾处所说，这可能是我最喜欢的新剧集，我很高兴能把它带给你们。
With that, I bring you Nikhyl Singhal after a short word from our sponsors.
在我们的赞助商简短发言后，我为您带来了尼克尔·辛哈尔 (Nikhyl Singhal)。
Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Superhuman.
莱尼：这一集是由超人为您带来的。
How much time do you spend in email each day?
您每天花多少时间在电子邮件上？
How about your team?
你的团队怎么样？
You may not realize this, but your email tools are wasting your time.
您可能没有意识到这一点，但您的电子邮件工具正在浪费您的时间。
Superhuman is blazingly fast email for high-performing teams.
Super human 是一款适合高绩效团队的超快电子邮件。
Built to work with Gmail and Outlook, teams who use Superhuman spend half the time in their inboxes, respond to twice the number of emails, and save over four hours a week.
专为与 Gmail 和 Outlook 配合使用而设计，使用 Super human 的团队可以将一半的时间花在收件箱上，回复两倍数量的电子邮件，并且每周可以节省四个多小时。
That's over a month of saved time per year.
每年可节省一个多月的时间。
With Superhuman, you can split your inbox into streams for VIPs, team members, and emails from your favorite products to reduce context switching and make sure you never miss an important email.
借助 Super human，您可以将收件箱分为 VIP、团队成员和来自您喜爱的产品的电子邮件流，以减少上下文切换并确保您不会错过任何重要电子邮件。
You can start reminders if you don't hear back so that you can follow up and never drop the ball on an email thread.
如果您没有收到回复，您可以启动提醒，以便您可以跟进，永远不会在电子邮件线程中犯错。
You can also work faster than ever before with powerful AI features like writing, editing, summarizing, and even translating.
您还可以利用强大的人工智能功能（例如写作、编辑、总结甚至翻译）比以往更快地工作。
Join the ranks of the most productive teams and unleash the power of Superhuman.
加入最有生产力的团队行列，释放超人的力量。
Try one month free at superhuman.com/lenny.
请访问 super human.com/lenny 免费试用一个月。
That's superhuman.com/lenny.
那是 super human.com/lenny。
Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Microsoft Clarity, a free, easy-to-use tool that captures how real people are actually using your site.
Lenny：本集由 Microsoft Clarity 为您带来，这是一个免费且易于使用的工具，可以捕获真实的人们如何实际使用您的网站。
You can watch live session replays to discover where users are breezing through your flow and where they struggle.
您可以观看实时会话重播，以发现用户在您的流程中哪些地方表现得轻松，哪些地方遇到了困难。
You can view instant heat maps to see what parts of your page users are engaging with and what content they're ignoring.
您可以查看即时热图，以了解用户正在参与页面的哪些部分以及他们忽略了哪些内容。
You can also pinpoint what's bothering your users with really cool frustration metrics like rage clicks, and dead clicks, and much more.
您还可以通过非常酷的挫折指标（例如愤怒点击和死点击等）来查明困扰用户的问题。
Lenny: If you listen to this podcast, you know how often we talk about the importance of knowing your users and by seeing how users truly experience your product, you can identify product opportunities, conversion wins, and find big gaps between how you imagine people using your product and how they actually use it.
Lenny：如果你听这个播客，你就会知道我们经常谈论了解用户的重要性，通过了解用户如何真实体验你的产品，你可以识别产品机会、转化成功，并发现你想象的人们使用你的产品的方式与他们实际使用产品的方式之间的巨大差距。
Microsoft Clarity makes it all possible with a simple yet incredibly powerful set of features.
Microsoft Clarity 通过一组简单但极其强大的功能使这一切成为可能。
You'll be blown away by how easy Clarity is to use and it's completely free forever.
您一定会对 Clarity 的易用性和永久免费感到震惊。
You'll never run into traffic limits or be forced upgrade to a paid version.
您永远不会遇到流量限制或被迫升级到付费版本。
It also works across both apps and websites.
它还适用于应用程序和网站。
Stop guessing, get clarity, check out Clarity at clarity.microsoft.com.
停止猜测，获得清晰答案，请访问clarity.microsoft.com 查看 Clarity。
Lenny: Nikhyl, welcome to the podcast.
莱尼：尼克尔，欢迎来到播客。
Nikhyl Singhal: Thank you, Lenny.
尼克尔·辛哈尔：谢谢你，莱尼。
I appreciate it.
我很感激。
I'm happy to be here.
我很高兴来到这里。
Lenny: So I have a very simple question to start.
莱尼：所以我有一个非常简单的问题要开始。
How many product managers have you been a mentor to if you had to put a number on it?
如果一定要具体数字的话，你指导过多少位产品经理？
Nikhyl Singhal: Good question.
尼克尔·辛哈尔：好问题。
I guess I haven't thought about it from that perspective.
我想我还没有从这个角度思考过。
I would say hundreds is probably the way to sort of answer the question, and a little bit has to do with whether how we define being a mentor.
我想说数百可能是回答这个问题的方式，并且与我们是否如何定义导师有关。
I know that was supposed to be a simple question and I'm going to give you a complicated answer, but I think that I started out just helping people 10, 15 years ago, trying to help them through their careers.
我知道这应该是一个简单的问题，我将给你一个复杂的答案，但我认为我在 10、15 年前就开始帮助人们，试图帮助他们度过职业生涯。
I find the whole area really interesting.
我发现整个区域真的很有趣。
And then what happened was just I started to scale because people were always like, "Hey, can you find time?"
然后发生的事情是我开始扩大规模，因为人们总是说，“嘿，你能抽出时间吗？”
Nikhyl Singhal: So now what I do is I tend to help and coach hundreds of folks through transitions.
Nikhyl Singhal：所以现在我所做的就是帮助和指导数百人完成转型。
So if they're in a moment where they're trying to decide between another job, if they're trying to decide to leave, if they're having sort of an alert at work, I call them 911 calls.
因此，如果他们正试图在另一份工作之间做出决定，如果他们试图决定离开，如果他们在工作中遇到某种警报，我会给他们打电话 911。
I take a few 911 calls every week and from a relatively large group of people.
我每周都会接到几个 911 电话，而且都是一大群人打来的。
So I find those are the most substantive times to help people, is when they're in moments of dilemma or forks in the road, and that's why the number is more closer to hundreds.
所以我发现那些是帮助人们最实质性的时候，就是当他们陷入困境或岔路口的时候，这就是为什么这个数字更接近数百人的原因。
Lenny: Okay.
莱尼：好的。
Follow-up question: How many of those people you've mentored have been on this podcast?
后续问题：您指导过的人中有多少人参加过这个播客？
Nikhyl Singhal: Probably half dozen to kind of close to a dozen at this point.
Nikhyl Singhal：目前可能有六到近十个。
Lenny: Amazing.
莱尼：太棒了。
Okay.
好的。
Is there any names you want to name or should we keep it anonymous?
您有什么想要透露的名字吗？还是我们应该匿名？
Nikhyl Singhal: Yeah.
尼克尔·辛哈尔：是的。
We'll keep it anonymous because I want people to feel they can always call me in and not feel like that.
我们将保持匿名，因为我希望人们觉得他们可以随时给我打电话，而不是有那样的感觉。
I don't tend to share the names of most people.
我不倾向于分享大多数人的名字。
Lenny: Okay.
莱尼：好的。
I know the one person that self-identified was Annie Pearl from Calendly, who is a big advocate of the stuff that you do.
我知道一个自我认同的人是 Calendly 的 Annie Pearl，她是你所做的事情的大力倡导者。
So we don't want-
所以我们不想-
Nikhyl Singhal: Yeah.
尼克尔·辛哈尔：是的。
Annie is someone I learned from and helped talk with, and she's also part of a community that I also build on the side where we pulled a bunch of CPOs together and they've been building community.
安妮是我向我学习并帮助交谈的人，她也是我建立的社区的一部分，我们把一群 CPO 聚集在一起，他们一直在建立社区。
I'm a big fan of community and learning, and she's part of that as well.
我是社区和学习的忠实粉丝，她也是其中的一部分。
Lenny: Awesome.
莱尼：太棒了。
I definitely want to talk about that, but maybe just set a little context for our conversation.
我确实想谈谈这个，但也许只是为我们的谈话设置一些背景。
I feel like you're in the very high percentiles of people that have seen a variety of careers in product management, both good careers, bad careers, junior people, senior people.
我觉得你在产品管理领域经历过各种职业的人中处于很高的比例，有好的职业，有坏的职业，有初级的，也有高级的。
So I want to focus most of our time on talking about just the PM career path and what you've learned about what is important to have a successful, thriving, happy PM career.
因此，我想将大部分时间集中讨论 PM 职业道路，以及您所学到的关于拥有成功、蓬勃发展、快乐的 PM 职业的重要性的知识。
Does that sound good?
听起来不错吗？
Lenny: Okay.
莱尼：好的。
So I'm thinking we break up the chat into early career, mid-career, and late career.
所以我想我们把谈话分成职业生涯早期、职业生涯中期和职业生涯后期。
So within the early career section, you've talked about how people often make a mistake in their early career, specifically being very short-term focused in deciding where they're going to go.
因此，在早期职业生涯部分，您谈到了人们在早期职业生涯中经常犯的错误，特别是在决定他们要去哪里时非常注重短期目标。
And that's a very dangerous way of thinking about it.
这是一种非常危险的思考方式。
So I'd love to hear just your take on exactly what does that mean, and why is that actually a bad idea?
所以我很想听听您对这到底意味着什么的看法，以及为什么这实际上是一个坏主意？
Nikhyl Singhal: Yeah.
尼克尔·辛哈尔：是的。
I tend to be long-term focused in most of my counsel, and maybe to give you an example of what a short-term focus career kind of framework looks like is, "I really dislike my boss.
我的大部分建议都倾向于长期关注，也许可以给你举个例子来说明短期关注的职业框架是什么样的，“我真的不喜欢我的老板。
I feel like this company doesn't have it anymore.
感觉这个公司已经没有了
There's just too hard to ship things." Those are all maybe true statements, but they probably exist in many of the jobs that one would consider if they were to move for one to another.
运送东西太难了。”这些也许都是真实的陈述，但它们可能存在于人们在跳槽时会考虑的许多工作中。
Lateral moves are by definition not forward moves.
根据定义，横向移动不是向前移动。
So what I try to tell people to think about is work backwards from your end state.
因此，我试图告诉人们要从最终状态开始逆向思考。
Nikhyl Singhal: Almost think of career as a product.
Nikhyl Singhal：几乎可以将职业视为一种产品。
So if you're building a good product, you think about, "Well, here's what a great product would look like," and then you break it into version one, version two, version three.
因此，如果你正在构建一个好的产品，你会想，“嗯，这就是一个伟大的产品应该是什么样的，”然后你把它分成版本一，版本二，版本三。
Well, in some ways the reason I called my newsletter, my podcast The Skip is because I always think about not the next job, but the one after it.
好吧，在某些方面，我之所以将我的时事通讯、我的播客称为“The Skip”，是因为我总是考虑的不是下一份工作，而是下一份工作。
Maybe think about not your boss's job but your boss's boss's job and what do I need to think about to get there.
也许不要考虑你老板的工作，而是考虑你老板的老板的工作，以及我需要考虑什么才能实现这一目标。
And in many ways you may think, "Well, okay, if I need to found a company one day and that's my job after next," then you want to look at maybe your current job and then maybe the next job in service of that.
在很多方面，你可能会想，“好吧，好吧，如果有一天我需要成立一家公司，而这就是我接下来的工作”，那么你可能会想看看你当前的工作，然后可能是为此服务的下一份工作。
And that may lead you to saying, "Hey, maybe I need a grit of doubt and maybe I should stay and maybe I should learn how to deal with some of this ambiguity.
这可能会让你说：“嘿，也许我需要一点怀疑，也许我应该留下来，也许我应该学习如何处理这种模糊性。
That's why I want people to be a bit more longer term and not so short-term focused.
这就是为什么我希望人们放眼长远，而不是只关注短期。
Lenny: What are some other examples of that short-term thinking?
莱尼：短期思维的其他例子还有哪些？
You talked about "my manager sucks, things are moving really slowly." What other examples where people maybe like, "Oh, okay, I see, this is actually short term.
你谈到“我的经理很糟糕，事情进展得很慢。”人们可能会喜欢的其他例子是：“哦，好吧，我明白了，这实际上是短期的。
Let me think longer term"?
让我考虑长远一点”？
Nikhyl Singhal: I'd say the biggest one in workplace is focusing career and promotion together.
Nikhyl Singhal：我想说，职场中最重要的一点就是将职业和晋升放在一起。
I think that there's perhaps a light connection between promotion and career addition, but I feel like too many people are, the moment we talk about career, they're like, "Well, let me talk to you.
我认为晋升和职业发展之间可能存在轻微的联系，但我觉得有太多人，当我们谈论职业时，他们会说，“好吧，让我和你谈谈。
I want to have a career talk with you." And I said, "Sure, why don't you find some time?" We sit down together and they're like, "Well, what do you think I need to do to get to promotion?" And then I said, "Well, promotion is our system at this company to see you moving forward.
我想和你谈谈职业生涯。”我说，“当然，你为什么不找点时间呢？”我们坐在一起，他们会说，“好吧，你认为我需要做什么才能得到晋升？”然后我说，“好吧，晋升是我们公司的制度，可以让你不断进步。
And it's pretty clear in terms of levels and what you're doing and what the process is and who makes the decision." And that's pretty short term because you can ask, "Hey, it's two years away, how do I make it 18 months?" It's a classic.
就级别、你在做什么、流程是什么以及谁做出决定而言，这是非常清楚的。”而且这是相当短期的，因为你可以问，“嘿，还有两年时间，我如何才能做到 18 个月？”这是一个经典。
Nikhyl Singhal: But in reality, if you're thinking career, you're thinking about the sort of long term arc and, as I said, maybe the job after next, and then you need to look at the promotion in service because how many people have you and I talked to who said, "Well then, as soon as I get promoted, I'm going to leave"?
尼克尔·辛哈尔：但实际上，如果你在考虑职业生涯，你会考虑那种长期的弧线，正如我所说，也许是下一份工作，然后你需要看看服务中的晋升，因为你和我与有多少人交谈过，他们说：“那么，一旦我晋升，我就会离开”？
So then I'm like, "Well, okay, then what's the promotion in service of?" And you get into that conversation, which tends to be, again, very long-term focused.
然后我就想，“好吧，那么促销的目的是什么？”然后你就进入了谈话，这往往是非常长期的。
Lenny: This makes me think about this interesting two-sided challenge with thinking about your future career and where you want to go.
莱尼：这让我思考这个有趣的双面挑战，思考你未来的职业生涯和你想去的地方。
On the one hand, it's valuable to think about getting more logos in your resume and working at Netflix and Meta and Airbnb and Uber, all these guys, there's power and value to that.
一方面，考虑在你的简历中加入更多徽标，并在 Netflix、Meta、Airbnb 和 Uber 等公司工作，所有这些人都有力量和价值，这是很有价值的。
On the other hand, you just keep doing that.
另一方面，你就继续这样做。
And then what is your life turning into?
那么你的生活会变成什么样子呢？
You're just chasing more fancy logos and feeling better about better brands and your resume and stuff.
你只是在追逐更奇特的标志，并对更好的品牌和你的简历等东西感觉更好。
This might be too big a question, but just how do you advise people to think about how important it's to get some of these companies in your resume and build that side of it versus just doing things you actually enjoy and having a fulfilling life and doing things that are meaningful to you?
这可能是一个太大的问题，但你如何建议人们考虑将其中一些公司纳入你的简历并建立它的这一面有多重要，而不是仅仅做你真正喜欢的事情，过上充实的生活，做对你有意义的事情？
Nikhyl Singhal: Yeah.
尼克尔·辛哈尔：是的。
I mean I think collecting labels does feel shallow to most builders because if you're a product person, you probably got into the business because you like building stuff.
我的意思是，我认为收集标签对于大多数构建者来说确实感觉很肤浅，因为如果你是产品人员，你可能会因为喜欢构建东西而进入这个行业。
And frankly, not just product people want to do that, a lot of technical people want to just build stuff.
坦率地说，不仅仅是产品人员想要这样做，很多技术人员也想要构建东西。
And then the question is, is the things that you're working on in service of building?
那么问题是，你正在做的事情是为建筑服务吗？
And then when you ask people, "Were you happy?" as they always say, "Well, when I was able to build this thing," and oftentimes they don't care whether it worked or not, which is kind of ironic.
然后当你问人们“你快乐吗？”正如他们总是说的，“好吧，当我能够建造这个东西时”，而且通常他们并不关心它是否有效，这有点讽刺。
So for me, when I see people chasing logos, I think about it as well.
所以对我来说，当我看到人们追逐标志时，我也会想到这一点。
I'm actually really a big fan of a diverse set of experiences, that I think learning about pre-product market fit then seeing smoke turn into fire and witnessing and maybe shepherding that and then taking fire and turning it into something great and being an experience set where you can see the movie in these different frames makes you just a better builder.
事实上，我真的很喜欢各种不同的体验，我认为了解产品前的市场契合度，然后看到烟雾变成火焰，见证，也许引导它，然后把火变成伟大的东西，成为一个体验集，你可以在这些不同的框架中观看电影，让你成为一个更好的建设者。
Nikhyl Singhal: So you can't really go wrong if you're looking at those experiences.
Nikhyl Singhal：所以，如果你关注这些经历，你就不会真的出错。
And you're looking at inside the building problems and outside the building problems, those are maybe consumer problems and business-to-business problems.
你正在研究建筑内部的问题和建筑外部的问题，这些可能是消费者问题和企业对企业的问题。
The more diverse career you have, the better builder you are.
您的职业越多样化，您就越能成为更好的建设者。
And that usually comes up being satisfied.
这通常会让人感到满意。
But the idea of just doing that because you think it's going to make your chances better for the next job maybe scares me and it feels very much in service of some future dream that is not build oriented.
但仅仅因为你认为这会让你获得下一份工作的机会更好而这样做的想法可能会让我感到害怕，而且感觉这非常有助于实现一些不以构建为导向的未来梦想。
And I think that can be leading to sadness.
我认为这可能会导致悲伤。
Lenny: I love that advice, and I say this often actually on this podcast, the power of a diversity of experiences for so many reasons.
莱尼：我喜欢这个建议，实际上我在这个播客上经常这么说，出于多种原因，多样性体验的力量。
Maybe just to close this loop, would you agree there is a lot of value in having one of these FAANG ish companies on your resume?
也许只是为了结束这个循环，您是否同意在您的简历中加入这些 FAANG 类公司之一具有很大的价值？
Like a lot of opportunity gets unlocked if you work at one of these companies that people are like, "Oh wow, okay, this person's interesting." Or not?
如果你在这些公司之一工作，人们会说：“哦，哇，好吧，这个人很有趣。”就像很多机会被释放一样。或者不是？
Or do people maybe overthink that?
或者人们可能想得太多了？
Nikhyl Singhal: Generically, the answer is yes.
Nikhyl Singhal：一般来说，答案是肯定的。
I think it's especially important for executives.
我认为这对于高管来说尤其重要。
I think that many executives are hired because they are to bring expertise of the next phase of organization to this company.
我认为聘用许多高管是因为他们要将组织下一阶段的专业知识带到这家公司。
We're growing, we want to go after the next phase.
我们正在成长，我们想要进入下一阶段。
We want someone who's has expertise.
我们想要有专业知识的人。
The MAGMA or FAANG companies, however you want to describe them, they really have challenges and expertise at how to build things at scale, how to manage millions or billions of users and customers.
无论您想如何描述 MAGMA 或 FAANG 公司，他们在如何大规模构建产品、如何管理数百万或数十亿用户和客户方面确实面临着挑战和专业知识。
So the advantage is, to be successful at that is an endorsement.
所以好处是，在这方面取得成功就是一种认可。
Having said that, those specific companies, experiences can be substituted for other later stage companies, but if you're coming in as an executive to bring someone to the next level and you've never experienced it, it's very difficult thing to get that executive experience and to be like a C-level for that growth company.
话虽如此，对于那些特定的公司，经验可以替代其他后期公司，但如果你作为高管来带领某人进入一个新的水平，而你从未经历过，那么获得这种高管经验并成为该成长型公司的 C 级是非常困难的。
Lenny: To point out, FAANG is no longer accurate because Facebook is now Meta.
Lenny：需要指出的是，FAANG 不再准确，因为 Facebook 现在是 Meta。
So MAGMA is the term that you prefer.
所以 MAGMA 是您更喜欢的术语。
Nikhyl Singhal: I prefer that.
尼克尔·辛哈尔：我更喜欢这样。
I think it unfortunately kicks out Netflix, but it also doesn't pay homage to Adobe and Salesforce and a number of other great companies.
我认为它不幸地踢出了 Netflix，但它也没有向 Adobe、Salesforce 以及其他一些伟大的公司致敬。
So I think-
所以我认为——
Lenny: FAANG doesn't.
莱尼：FAANG 没有。
Okay, I like this.
好的，我喜欢这个。
Okay, let's try to make MAGMA the new thing.
好吧，让我们尝试让 MAGMA 成为新事物。
MAGMA, make that the title of this episode.
MAGMA，将此作为本集的标题。
Just joking.
只是开玩笑。
Lenny: So the next area I want to touch on is, you wrote this kind of hot take on something you call ex-growth companies and how it's not good to be at an ex-growth company currently.
莱尼：所以我想谈的下一个领域是，你写了一篇关于你所谓的前成长型公司的热门文章，以及目前在前成长型公司的不好之处。
So can you just talk about what is an ex-growth company and then why is that not a good place to be as a product manager for probably any kind of role?
那么，您能否谈谈什么是前成长型公司，以及为什么这不适合担任任何类型的产品经理？
Nikhyl Singhal: I have a pretty strong opinion on this that I think that for 10 years we created the hypergrowth, blitzscaling type phenomenon, and there was a lot of good reasons for that, some of which were just distribution platforms just got so good.
Nikhyl Singhal：我对此有一个非常强烈的看法，我认为十年来我们创造了高速增长、闪电式扩张的现象，其中有很多充分的理由，其中一些只是分销平台变得如此出色。
You could take out Facebook ads, you could grow with Google, and you could grow in 18 months that maybe took previous companies 10 years.
你可以去掉 Facebook 广告，你可以与 Google 一起成长，你可以在 18 个月内实现成长，而以前的公司可能需要 10 年的时间。
So I think that the idea was that all of these companies could instantly grow when they found product market fit and that birthed all these unicorns.
所以我认为，这个想法是，当所有这些公司发现产品适合市场时，它们都可以立即成长，从而诞生了所有这些独角兽。
And then suddenly, 18 months ago, it almost like the music stopped.
然后突然间，18 个月前，音乐几乎停止了。
0% interest rate went away, and it became a lot harder to find growth through just fueling it with capital.
零利率消失了，仅通过资本推动经济增长变得更加困难。
And I think that the sudden change meant that not only capital was harder to raise, but companies started to focus on their core products.
我认为突然的变化不仅意味着资本更难筹集，而且公司开始专注于他们的核心产品。
You've talked about it on this podcast, just how many layoffs and restructuring and managers moving to ICs, and all of that work is happening.
您在这个播客中谈到了有多少裁员、重组以及管理人员转向 IC，所有这些工作都在发生。
Nikhyl Singhal: Well, the one funny pocket was there's these large number of growth companies who have raised substantive dollars.
Nikhyl Singhal：嗯，有趣的是，有大量的成长型公司筹集了大量资金。
So they're not going to run out of capital in 2022 or 2023.
因此，他们不会在 2022 年或 2023 年耗尽资金。
What's going to happen is, they actually have quite long periods of time, so you don't see them raising new rounds, you don't see them laying off, but in some ways they're still hiring or they're still seeking the next product.
将会发生的情况是，他们实际上有相当长的时间，所以你看不到他们筹集新一轮资金，你看不到他们裁员，但在某些方面他们仍在招聘或仍在寻找下一个产品。
The sad truth is that many of their contemporary companies that went public are worth 10% or less than what they were worth back then, and these companies are privately held and so they're sort of sleeping in the shadows.
可悲的事实是，许多当代上市公司的价值比当时的价值低 10% 或更低，而且这些公司都是私人持有的，所以它们有点沉睡在阴影中。
Nikhyl Singhal: My fear is, from a career point of view, so many tech professionals are in these organizations or joining these organizations with the expectation that they'll make money on their equity, that they'll continue to do fine.
Nikhyl Singhal：我担心的是，从职业角度来看，这么多技术专业人士在这些组织中或加入这些组织时，期望他们能通过自己的股权赚钱，他们会继续做得很好。
And my sense is we're going to see, even in the second half of this year, lots of boards pulling back, taking their capital back, companies essentially saying, "Hey, we're capitalized.
我的感觉是，即使在今年下半年，我们也会看到许多董事会撤回，收回资本，公司基本上会说，“嘿，我们已经资本化了。
We're a scaled ocean liner, and now we need to go find product market fit." But doing that with 300 people and expectations of hitting a multi-billion dollar valuation just isn't going to happen.
我们是一艘规模化的远洋客轮，现在我们需要寻找适合市场的产品。”但拥有 300 名员工并期望达到数十亿美元的估值是不可能实现的。
So that's the reason why I'm like, "Danger.
所以这就是为什么我会说：“危险。
This is not the company to join, this is the company to leave.
这不是要加入的公司，这是要离开的公司。
Find another phase.
寻找另一个阶段。
Time's a wasting." And I worry very much that people aren't getting the message.
时间是浪费。”我非常担心人们没有理解这一信息。
Lenny: I know you probably don't want to name any names of companies, but what are some signs that may be you're at one of these companies?
莱尼：我知道您可能不想透露任何公司的名称，但是有哪些迹象表明您可能在这些公司之一？
Nikhyl Singhal: I think that the moment that you are reframing the core product, trying to find that product market implies that this company's valuation needs to be a pre-product market fit valuation.
Nikhyl Singhal：我认为，当你重新构建核心产品、试图找到产品市场时，这意味着该公司的估值需要是产品前市场契合的估值。
So the two questions you ask yourself the day after we listen to this podcast is, "Hey, are we scaling a product?
因此，在我们听完这个播客的第二天，你问自己的两个问题是：“嘿，我们正在扩展产品吗？
We have customers that love us and we have a tremendous sucking sound?
我们有爱我们的客户，而我们却有巨大的吸吮声音？
Or are we trying to find that customer sucking sound?" And if the answer is, "We're still trying to find it," and then you're like, "Is your evaluation hundreds of millions or tens of millions?" and if the answer is hundreds or more and you're still trying to find that sucking sound, you're an ex-growth company.
还是我们正在努力寻找吸引客户的声音？”如果答案是，“我们仍在努力寻找它”，然后你会想，“你的评估是数亿还是数千万？”如果答案是数百或更多，而你仍在努力寻找那种吸引声音的公司，那么你就是一家前成长型公司。
Lenny: As a founder listening to this, I bet you're like, "Damn, we don't want people leaving.
莱尼：作为创始人听到这个，我敢打赌你会说，“该死，我们不想让人们离开。
This isn't the kind of message we want to hear." On the other hand, as an employee at a company, that is your advice, just generally recognize it and then you should probably leave as soon as possible because things are not going to work out for you.
这不是我们想听到的信息。”另一方面，作为公司的一名员工，这是你的建议，只是普遍认识到这一点，然后你可能应该尽快离开，因为事情不会为你带来好处。
Nikhyl Singhal: As an employee, I think you have almost no recourse because you almost have to start over in terms of it's a new four-year investment.
Nikhyl Singhal：作为一名员工，我认为你几乎没有追索权，因为你几乎必须重新开始，因为这是一项新的四年投资。
I think that as a founder, you can recap your company.
我认为作为创始人，你可以回顾一下你的公司。
You can reset your stock price, you could reissue.
你可以重置你的股票价格，你可以重新发行。
You can make those hard decisions and you can maybe return some of the money to the board and still continue, or you can pull the plug and restart the company that maybe you really wanted to.
你可以做出这些艰难的决定，你也许可以将部分资金返还给董事会并继续继续，或者你可以拔掉插头并重新启动也许你真正想要的公司。
But I think the founder is in a better position, but they also have a lot more to lose and far more constraints.
但我认为创始人处于更好的位置，但他们也有更多的损失和更多的限制。
But employees, they're not...
但员工们，他们不是...
If you listen to this and come to this conclusion, a lot of times, the listeners here, half or more of their compensation is an equity and we just concluded that most of their equity may not be worth anything.
如果你听了这个并得出这个结论，很多时候，这里的听众，他们的一半或更多的报酬是股权，我们刚刚得出的结论是，他们的大部分股权可能不值任何钱。
In which case, are you willing to take a half pay cut or work for 20% of what you can get on the market?
在这种情况下，你是否愿意减半工资或以市场上能买到的20%的价格工作？
My question is, that seems to be quite concerning, the opportunity cost is just too rich.
我的问题是，这似乎很令人担忧，机会成本太高了。
Lenny: An important variable in this framework/piece of advice is product market fit.
Lenny：这个框架/建议中的一个重要变量是产品市场契合度。
This might be too big of a question, but just, what tells you that something might have not have product market fit when you're at a company like this?
这可能是一个太大的问题，但是，当你在这样的公司工作时，什么告诉你某些东西可能不适合产品市场呢？
What are signs to you and smoke signals of like, "They may not have product market fit"?
对您来说，“他们的产品可能不适合市场”之类的信号和烟雾信号是什么？
Nikhyl Singhal: For me, it's always around this pull that sort of how much work do you have to do to basically generate pull?
Nikhyl Singhal：对我来说，总是围绕着这种拉力，你需要做多少工作才能基本上产生拉力？
So right now with OpenAI for example, we're seeing ridiculous pull, but we may not be seeing, for example, massive revenue or profitability.
例如，现在以 OpenAI 为例，我们看到了荒谬的拉力，但我们可能看不到巨大的收入或盈利能力。
So that's the reason why I tend to feel like you can kind of tell by how hard it is to acquire your users.
所以这就是为什么我倾向于觉得你可以通过获取用户的难度来判断。
When companies are putting very little in marketing and there're people coming into the door or there's such an easy sale, you've got it.
当公司在营销方面投入很少，而有人进来或者销售如此轻松时，你就成功了。
I think that this sucking pull kind of concept feels like the most appropriate way to define it as opposed to the sort of unit economics of acquisition and time to pay back.
我认为这种吸力概念感觉像是定义它的最合适的方式，而不是那种收购和偿还时间的单位经济学。
There are lots of mathy ways to do it, but early on you can tell how hard are you working to bring people in the door.
有很多数学方法可以做到这一点，但一开始你就可以看出你为吸引人们进来付出了多大的努力。
Lenny: Is there any reason to consider staying at a company like this?
莱尼：有什么理由考虑留在这样的公司吗？
Nikhyl Singhal: There are counter examples.
Nikhyl Singhal：有反例。
I think the counterpoint is, this is the biggest role that you feel like you could get and you have an appetite to sort of learn like, "I'm on the executive team, I'm not going to get that somewhere else.
我认为相反的是，这是你觉得自己可以获得的最大角色，并且你有学习的兴趣，比如，“我在执行团队中，我不会在其他地方得到这个。
That experience is career additive.
这种经验可以增加职业生涯。
I want that moment." Great.
我想要那一刻。”伟大的。
Sometimes I see loyalty come in, "This was my baby.
有时我看到忠诚进来，“这是我的孩子。
I feel a commitment to the team, the team that I've made, et cetera."
我对这支球队、我所组建的球队等等有一种承诺。”
Nikhyl Singhal: I actually respect that.
尼克尔·辛格哈尔：我实际上尊重这一点。
I think that you have to put bounds on that.
我认为你必须对此加以限制。
I think that you should have that conversation.
我认为你应该进行这样的对话。
But the learning position, the loyalty tend to be the primary reasons to maybe delay the decision, but fear of finding another job is a bad reason, but is an often common reason as well.
但学习职位、忠诚度往往是推迟决定的主要原因，但担心找到另一份工作是一个不好的原因，但也是一个常见的原因。
Lenny: Now that we've given many listeners an existential crisis, let me move on to another question within the early career phase and then I'm going to move on to mid-career.
莱尼：既然我们已经给许多听众带来了生存危机，那么让我继续讨论职业生涯早期阶段的另一个问题，然后我将进入职业生涯中期。
I guess the question is just, is there any other piece of advice, wisdom for early PMs?
我想问题只是，对于早期产品经理来说，还有其他建议和智慧吗？
Maybe the question is, what do you think they should most get right in their early career?
也许问题是，你认为他们在职业生涯早期最应该做对的是什么？
Nikhyl Singhal: There's probably two answers that I would share.
Nikhyl Singhal：我可能会分享两个答案。
One is, they want to build something that they as much as possible are world-class in.
一是，他们希望打造尽可能世界一流的东西。
So if you think about the different types of product ambiguities that exist in industry, you can be a great crafter.
因此，如果您考虑行业中存在的不同类型的产品歧义，您就可以成为一名出色的工匠。
You could be incredibly strong at market ambiguity.
你可能在市场模糊性方面表现得非常强大。
You could understand how to navigate markets and create something new that doesn't exist.
您可以了解如何驾驭市场并创造不存在的新事物。
You can be great at organizational ambiguity.
你可以擅长组织模糊性。
I know how to take complex teams that have complex goals and solve an inside the building problem.
我知道如何带领具有复杂目标的复杂团队并解决内部建筑问题。
You can be a domain expert.
您可以成为领域专家。
I'm an ML expert, I'm a really strong hardware PM.
我是一名机器学习专家，也是一位非常强大的硬件产品经理。
You can be a team expert.
你可以成为团队专家。
I just really thrive in managing managers and I just know how to get the balance right.
我真的很擅长管理经理，而且我知道如何取得正确的平衡。
So, being a product manager means you're confronted with maybe all five or maybe more of these.
因此，作为一名产品经理意味着您可能会面临所有五个或更多的问题。
I want to know that you pick up one of these as early as possible.
我想知道您是否尽早拿起其中之一。
Nikhyl Singhal: So maybe you become an expert in domain, maybe you become a great crafter, maybe you really think through how to manage growth.
Nikhyl Singhal：所以也许你会成为某个领域的专家，也许你会成为一名伟大的工匠，也许你真的会思考如何管理增长。
Growth is another one that I would add to the list.
增长是我要添加到列表中的另一个因素。
But picking a lane is kind of goal number one.
但选择一条车道是首要目标。
And then maybe goal number two is having a story to tell to that next employer and that next, next.
然后，也许第二个目标是向下一个雇主以及下一个、下一个雇主讲一个故事。
What I worry about is, sometimes when I'm in an interview, and you and I have probably done hundreds, and you're talking to someone and then they talk about those early jobs and they just sort of said they were there, this happened and it's very hard to connect, tell me exactly what you learned and what you did, I want to know that story.
我担心的是，有时当我接受采访时，你和我可能已经做了数百个，你正在和某人交谈，然后他们谈论那些早期的工作，他们只是说他们在那里，这件事发生了，很难联系起来，准确地告诉我你学到了什么和你做了什么，我想知道那个故事。
So it's just like Amazon talks about building the press release before they start creating a product.
所以这就像亚马逊在开始创建产品之前谈论构建新闻稿一样。
Think about the story, think about the skill, then solve your day to day, your week to week, your month to month, your performance review.
思考故事，思考技能，然后解决你的日常、每周、每月、绩效评估。
That's my biggest advice I seize.
这是我最大的建议。
Lenny: I love that advice.
莱尼：我喜欢这个建议。
It connects to your other earlier piece of advice, of just try to get a variety of experiences because that'll help you figure out which of these things is maybe best suited for what you're interested in, what you enjoy doing.
它与您之前的另一条建议相关，即尝试获得各种经验，因为这将帮助您找出哪些事情可能最适合您感兴趣的事情，您喜欢做的事情。
Lenny: Awesome.
莱尼：太棒了。
So let's transition to mid-career.
因此，让我们过渡到职业生涯中期。
Let's talk about promotions.
我们来谈谈促销吧。
You mentioned getting promoted earlier.
你之前提到过升职。
We chatted a bit about that.
我们就此聊了一会儿。
There's probably no one ever that didn't want to get promoted.
可能没有人不想升职。
It's a common topic in people's career, but a lot of times people don't understand why they're not getting promoted, they're not sure people are looking for to get promoted.
这是人们职业生涯中的一个常见话题，但很多时候人们不明白为什么自己没有升职，他们不确定人们是否在寻求升职。
You've promoted a lot of people and you've gone through a lot of promotions.
你提拔了很多人，也经历过很多次晋升。
What would be your advice to give people who are trying to get promoted and just haven't been promoted?
对于那些试图升职但尚未升职的人，您有什么建议？
What would you suggest people in that position generally do?
您建议担任该职位的人通常会做什么？
Nikhyl Singhal: Yeah, it's a great question.
尼克尔·辛格哈尔：是的，这是一个很好的问题。
I think that we want to kind of understand why, and oftentimes asking your manager won't reveal the answer.
我认为我们想要了解其中的原因，但通常询问你的经理并不会透露答案。
So then you'll start with that.
那么你就从那开始吧。
I think that the answer of what you do is correlated with what's the real reason.
我认为你所做的事情的答案与真正的原因相关。
And I think that there may be, I'll suggest four kind of common things I've seen that really hold people back.
我认为，我会提出四种我所见过的真正阻碍人们前进的常见事情。
And then depending on your environment, you have to decide how many of these apply.
然后根据您的环境，您必须决定其中有多少适用。
Nikhyl Singhal: So I think the number one is that you just don't have advocacy.
尼克尔·辛哈尔：所以我认为第一是你没有倡导。
You need someone to see the magic in you to be promoted.
你需要有人看到你的魔力才能得到晋升。
There is many of your listeners who have that magic but maybe have a manager or a promotion team, it doesn't always have to be the manager itself, who doesn't see said magic.
有很多听众都拥有这种魔力，但可能有经理或晋升团队，并不总是经理本身，他们看不到所说的魔力。
And in that case, if you have the magic, you're in a bad setting and you just need to change.
在这种情况下，如果你有魔法，那么你所处的环境很糟糕，你只需要改变。
That could be a shift within the project.
这可能是项目内部的一个转变。
You could find a manager who sees it.
您可以找到一位看到它的经理。
It could be leaving the company.
它可能会离开公司。
I think the second that's very common now, Lenny, and I think it's coming up a ton, is the next role doesn't exist.
我认为第二个现在很常见，莱尼，而且我认为它会出现很多，那就是下一个角色不存在。
Nikhyl Singhal: So this is not as present in hypergrowth because the next role always did exist.
Nikhyl Singhal：所以这在高速增长中并不存在，因为下一个角色总是存在的。
There was always growth, there was always hiring, you're always hiring people above you, below you, et cetera.
总是有增长，总是有招聘，你总是在招聘比你高的人，比你低的人，等等。
Now, I think there's lots of examples of people who are really qualified and working at the next level, but the job doesn't exist.
现在，我认为有很多例子表明，那些真正有资格并在更高水平上工作的人，但这份工作并不存在。
So you can't really create that job and ask them to be working at that next job if their position is mostly the previous one.
因此，如果他们的职位主要是前一份工作，那么您就无法真正创建该工作并要求他们从事下一份工作。
Again, I feel like it's not that satisfying because it means you're still being held back, but it's radically different than if you're unqualified.
再说一遍，我觉得这并不是那么令人满意，因为这意味着你仍然受到阻碍，但这与你不合格的情况截然不同。
These two are sort of more, the system is not in a position to advocate.
这两个有点多，系统无法提倡。
Nikhyl Singhal: The third is when you are being impatient.
Nikhyl Singhal：第三种情况是当你不耐烦的时候。
And I think the hardest ones that I think I've worked with is, the highest performers have succeeded because they have set their goals to be more aggressive than what was essentially average achievable.
我认为与我共事过的最困难的人是，表现最好的人之所以成功，是因为他们设定的目标比基本上平均可实现的目标更加激进。
By default, we expect you to be two years in this role.
默认情况下，我们预计您将担任该职位两年。
They're like, "Great, I'll see you in a year." And then they get frustrated when they can't do that, and leadership takes longer to absorb.
他们会说：“太好了，一年后见。”当他们做不到这一点时，他们会感到沮丧，领导层需要更长的时间来吸收。
It's more soft skills, it's more subtle.
这是更软的技能，更微妙。
Oftentimes it's based on impact, which is a lot of times lagging, and that tends to be frustrating.
通常它是基于影响，而影响很多时候是滞后的，这往往会令人沮丧。
So if listeners are like, "I know I'm used to being promoted annually and now I'm a leader and I'm not moving as quickly, it's time for me to go," I'm like, well, maybe that's working as intended.
因此，如果听众说，“我知道我已经习惯了每年升职，现在我是一名领导者，但我的行动没有那么快，那么我是时候离开了，”我会想，好吧，也许这正在按预期进行。
So impatience is a number three.
因此，急躁是第三位。
Nikhyl Singhal: And then the fourth one I think is about 50% of the cases where it's really, there is a development area but it isn't quite connected to the individual.
Nikhyl Singhal：第四个我认为大约有 50% 的情况确实存在一个发展领域，但与个人并没有太大联系。
The listener has a development area, it's substantive.
听者有一个发展领域，它是实质性的。
The manager is poor at identifying it, perhaps even doesn't see it, but the promotion committee does, the individual refuses to hear it, which is a very common one.
经理不善于识别，甚至看不到，但晋升委员会知道，个人不听，这是很常见的。
Or they hear it and they just don't want to change it.
或者他们听到了但他们只是不想改变它。
And they don't do it because they're arrogant, they do it because it's like, "This is who I am.
他们这样做并不是因为他们傲慢，他们这样做是因为“这就是我。
You want me to be X and I'm Y, and that's what a Y is and I don't want to be X." This is the hardest one because this is where coaching and development and self-awareness come in.
你想让我成为 X，而我就是 Y，这就是 Y，而我不想成为 X。”这是最难的，因为这是辅导、发展和自我意识发挥作用的地方。
Lenny: Amazing.
莱尼：太棒了。
This super resonates.
这超级有共鸣。
So just to summarize the four reasons you may not be getting promoted: One is, there's no advocate that sees your magic and understands that you're awesome.
因此，总结一下您可能无法升职的四个原因：一是没有拥护者看到您的魔力并理解您的出色。
Two is, there's no actual role that's available and so there's nothing to get promoted to.
第二是，没有可用的实际职位，因此没有什么可以晋升的。
And that's so true right now, there's just not.
现在确实如此，只是没有。
Everyone's laying people off, they're getting rid of manager layers.
每个人都在裁员，他们正在摆脱管理层。
I totally see that all over the place.
我到处都看到了这一点。
Three is, you're probably just not being patient.
第三，你可能只是没有耐心。
Four, you actually have some work to do and you shouldn't be promoted.
第四，你实际上还有一些工作要做，不应该升职。
Maybe to follow a thread on that first one, if someone doesn't see your magic, I see a lot of people just complaining that like, "Oh, I'm doing so well, I'm so great and nobody understands it.
也许按照第一个主题，如果有人看不到你的魔力，我看到很多人只是抱怨，“哦，我做得很好，我很棒，但没有人理解它。
No one gives me credit.
没有人相信我。
No one really appreciates me." I don't know if there is an answer to this, but is there a way to help people see that no, you're actually not doing great versus you are and people just don't see it?
没有人真正欣赏我。”我不知道这个问题是否有答案，但是有没有办法帮助人们认识到，不，你实际上做得并不好，而人们只是看不到这一点？
What's a sign maybe?
也许是什么标志？
Maybe you're not as great as you think you might be.
也许你并没有你想象的那么伟大。
Nikhyl Singhal: The cheap answer is you have to get real feedback, not formal feedback.
Nikhyl Singhal：最简单的答案是你必须获得真实的反馈，而不是正式的反馈。
I think that the more scaled the company is, the more they have these systems in place which provide formal feedback.
我认为公司规模越大，他们就越有这些可以提供正式反馈的系统。
But honestly, we've run experiments where we said let's ignore the formal feedback, let's have a real conversation with my peers on how our teams are doing.
但老实说，我们已经进行了实验，我们说让我们忽略正式反馈，让我们与我的同事就我们团队的表现进行真正的对话。
The signal that comes out are dramatically different than the formal feedback.
发出的信号与正式反馈有很大不同。
So what you're looking for when you feel like you're in this situation where you're not being seen, and it might be because there's a real issue, what you really want to dial into is, "Let me get the ground truth as to what people are thinking," and you have to have very strong listener skills where we all have been in the discussion, where you're giving feedback to someone and the next thing that they tell you is they justify how you're wrong, that you missed this.
因此，当你感觉自己处于这种情况时，你不被人看到，这可能是因为存在一个真正的问题，你真正想要了解的是，“让我了解人们在想什么”，你必须有很强的倾听技巧，我们都参与过讨论，你向某人提供反馈，他们告诉你的下一件事是他们证明你是如何错的，你错过了这一点。
"Let me tell you about exactly why that situation that you're using wasn't..."
“让我告诉你到底为什么你所使用的情况不是……”
Nikhyl Singhal: You have to be great at pulling feedback, listening to it.
Nikhyl Singhal：你必须善于获取反馈、倾听反馈。
You have to triangulate it from people that don't see you all the time, that do see you all the time, your peers.
你必须从那些不经常见到你的人、那些经常见到你的人、你的同事中进行三角测量。
But you have to create an environment of safety where people feel like there is no worry about retaliation or concern, et cetera.
但你必须创造一个安全的环境，让人们感觉不用担心报复或担忧等。
And the more comfortable people are about giving feedback to you and the more you have the skills to pull it and you don't trust formal or you don't trust manager, the better shot you have of truly understanding what that real issue is and solving it.
人们越愿意向你提供反馈，你就越有能力提出反馈，并且你不信任正式的反馈或你不信任经理，你就越有可能真正理解真正的问题是什么并解决它。
Lenny: This reminds me of Jules Walter who's on the podcast.
莱尼：这让我想起了播客上的朱尔斯·沃尔特。
He gave a bunch of advice.
他给了很多建议。
I don't know if you saw that.
我不知道你是否看到了。
I've had to accept feedback and get people to give you feedback.
我必须接受反馈并让人们给你反馈。
And one of its pieces of advice is, ask people for real feedback.
它的建议之一是，询问人们真实的反馈。
And no matter how much you're melting inside hearing it, just be like, "Thank you so much for that." Because then, people feel like, "All right, he's listening."
无论你听到这句话有多心碎，只要说：“非常感谢你。”因为那时，人们会觉得，“好吧，他在听。”
Nikhyl Singhal: I think Jules is a great, probably one of the world's best people in pulling feedback in my experience.
Nikhyl Singhal：我认为 Jules 是一位伟大的人，根据我的经验，他可能是世界上最善于收集反馈的人之一。
I think that the one that even ones up it is, when I talk to Jules, Jules will look for feedback, then he'll repeat it back to me better than even I presented it.
我认为最重要的是，当我和朱尔斯交谈时，朱尔斯会寻求反馈，然后他会向我复述，甚至比我提出的还要好。
And then I'd say, "Well, let me now feel safer to even provide." Because anyone who's explaining it to a place that they all not only internalize it but they can articulate clearly understands and values it.
然后我会说：“好吧，现在让我觉得提供食物更安全了。”因为任何向一个地方解释它的人不仅会内化它，而且能够清楚地表达它，从而理解并重视它。
And that's the really powerful way is, "So what you're saying is I just interrupt far too often and some ways it's almost to a point that it's annoying.
这才是真正有效的方式，“所以你的意思是我打断得太频繁了，在某些方面它几乎到了令人厌烦的地步。
Is that a fair assessment?" "Oh, that's actually not the words I use," but that's what really gets people comfortable in sharing with you what's really going on.
这样的评价公平吗？” “哦，这实际上不是我用的词，”但这才是真正让人们轻松地与你分享真正发生的事情的原因。
Lenny: Amazing.
莱尼：太棒了。
I think we're discovering some of these people that have worked with you that have been on the podcast slowly.
我想我们正在慢慢发现一些曾与您合作过的人，他们已经慢慢加入了播客。
Maybe while we're on this topic, I didn't expect to go here, but in terms of other tips for getting good feedback, is there anything else that just comes top of mind of how to get better feedback from people?
也许当我们谈论这个话题时，我没想到会走到这里，但就获得良好反馈的其他技巧而言，还有什么是最重要的关于如何从人们那里获得更好的反馈吗？
Because it's hard to do.
因为这很难做到。
Most people talk about getting feedback and then don't, or they just don't know how.
大多数人谈论如何获取反馈，但最终却没有，或者他们只是不知道如何获取反馈。
So one is just, you said repeat back exactly what they told you and be like very appreciative.
所以一是，你说要准确地重复他们告诉你的话，并且非常感激。
Is there anything else?
还有别的吗？
Nikhyl Singhal: I'd share out feedback.
Nikhyl Singhal：我会分享反馈。
It's a little easier when you are a manager, but for example, most managers that are listening have a staff discussion.
当你是经理时，这会容易一些，但例如，大多数正在倾听的经理都会进行员工讨论。
Maybe it's sort of awkward, but maybe you have a standup and you are giving notes to people.
也许这有点尴尬，但也许你有一个站立会议并向人们做笔记。
So as a manager, someone will come to me and they'll give me a piece of feedback.
因此，作为一名经理，有人会来找我，他们会给我一些反馈。
The next Monday when I have my staff meeting, I'll make a comment about something and I'll say, "Well, lot of this came because I got this great piece of feedback from..." and I'll name the person, and I'm like, "It really helped me see this challenge." Now, that feedback could be about me or about this project or about the team.
下周一，当我召开员工会议时，我会对某件事发表评论，我会说，“嗯，很多这样的事情都是因为我从……那里得到了很好的反馈”，我会说出这个人的名字，我会说，“这真的帮助我看到了这一挑战。”现在，反馈可能是关于我、关于这个项目或关于团队的。
And it might be positive, it might be constructive.
这可能是积极的，可能是建设性的。
People hear that and they're like, "Wow, I get recognized for giving this guy feedback.
人们听到这句话后会想，“哇，我因为给这个人提供反馈而得到了认可。
Sign me up." You're always trying to find way to break down that barrier.
给我报名吧。”你总是试图找到打破这个障碍的方法。
Lenny: I love that tip.
莱尼：我喜欢这个建议。
You talked about managers and how often managers are not great at managers.
您谈到了管理者，以及管理者常常不擅长管理者。
Maybe they don't identify development areas, maybe they're bad in other areas.
也许他们没有确定发展领域，也许他们在其他领域做得不好。
So maybe just a question here of just, why are managers often not great?
所以也许这里只是一个问题，为什么管理者往往不优秀？
And then two, if you're a new manager, I think a lot of listeners are maybe transitioning to management or about to transition, what's your advice for being successful as a new manager?
然后第二个问题，如果你是一名新经理，我认为很多听众可能正在过渡到管理层或即将过渡，对于作为新经理取得成功，你有什么建议？
Nikhyl Singhal: I'll start by saying that, in a hundred years when the archeologists look back and they see tech in the sort of early years of tech, the first 34 years, they'll say that the biggest surprise was how much we thought it was okay to not train managers.
Nikhyl Singhal：我首先要说的是，一百年后，当考古学家回顾过去，他们看到技术处于技术的早期阶段，即前 34 年时，他们会说，最大的惊讶是我们认为不培训管理人员是可以接受的。
The military probably didn't make that mistake for very long before they corrected it.
军方可能没多久就纠正了这个错误。
And most immature industries really train managers, but boy, if you're a good coder, you are ready to manage.
大多数不成熟的行业确实在培训经理，但是如果你是一名优秀的程序员，你就已经准备好进行管理了。
That's the way the industry works.
这就是这个行业的运作方式。
If you can talk, you are ready to product manage.
如果你能说话，那么你就已经准备好进行产品管理了。
If you can product manage and ship something out the door, you should definitely tell people what to do.
如果你可以进行产品管理并将某些东西推出去，那么你绝对应该告诉人们该做什么。
I think that there's such a loose coupling between the skills to be successful at building things and teaching people how to build.
我认为成功构建事物的技能与教人们如何构建的技能之间存在如此松散的耦合。
It's the difference between if you can make a good car, you must know how to make the factory that makes the car.
这就是如果你能制造出一辆好车，你就必须知道如何制造制造汽车的工厂。
I don't think that's true at all.
我认为这根本不是真的。
Nikhyl Singhal: I think that this is a massive epidemic, that I think there's the thousand challenges that stem from this, whether it's challenges around bias, challenges around enabling coaching and teaching and solving development areas.
尼克尔·辛哈尔（Nikhyl Singhal）：我认为这是一场大规模的流行病，我认为由此产生了数以千计的挑战，无论是围绕偏见的挑战，还是围绕辅导和教学以及解决发展领域的挑战。
My hope is that one day as an industry we find ways to improve and fix it.
我希望有一天，作为一个行业，我们能找到改进和解决这个问题的方法。
But podcasts like yours are actually quite meaningful steps.
但像您这样的播客实际上是非常有意义的步骤。
I would say that your podcast might be more meaningful than most L&D departments in most organizations today.
我想说，您的播客可能比当今大多数组织中的大多数学习与发展部门更有意义。
So that's powerful because you're having a tremendous amount of impact, and I think learning is essentially a lifelong opportunity and I think that is the type of resources that just didn't exist a decade ago.
所以这很强大，因为你会产生巨大的影响，我认为学习本质上是一个终生的机会，我认为这是十年前不存在的资源类型。
Nikhyl Singhal: I think to answer your question around what are the common pitfalls, if you're a first time manager listening or maybe someone who's considering it, I think there are probably two quick things that I would say you have to get bravely thoughtful about as you enter into this journey.
尼克尔·辛哈尔（Nikhyl Singhal）：我想回答你关于常见陷阱的问题，如果你是第一次听经理讲话或者正在考虑这样做的人，我认为在你进入这一旅程时，我认为可能有两件事你必须勇敢地思考。
One is, your challenge is going to be to share the steering wheel with the person or the set of people you are managing.
一是，您面临的挑战将是与您管理的人或一组人分享方向盘。
And I think that there's this three modes that people have in their head.
我认为人们头脑中有这三种模式。
They're like, "Oh, management is divide and conquering.
他们会说，“哦，管理就是分而治之。
You go there, I go there, we meet up."
你去那里，我去那里，我们见面。”
Nikhyl Singhal: Or they'll say it's like riding a bike, or teaching to ride a bike, I should say.
Nikhyl Singhal：或者他们会说这就像骑自行车，或者教骑自行车，我应该说。
Someone starts out on the bicycle, I hold your hand, I let go, and then I hope that you fly.
有人骑自行车出发，我握着你的手，我放开，然后我希望你飞起来。
I think it's more like the sidecar on the motorcycle, where person's driving the motorcycle and I'm on the sidecar and whether I like it or not, I'm attached, but I have this relatively specific role of giving counsel.
我觉得这更像是摩托车上的边车，人开摩托车，我在边车上，不管我喜欢与否，我都是依恋的，但我有一个相对具体的提供建议的角色。
I think that that model of how do you share the steering wheel, not just say you got it or I got it or I got it for a while, and then I hand it to you is the key question.
我认为关键问题是如何共享方向盘的模型，而不仅仅是说你得到了它或我得到了它或我得到了它一段时间，然后我把它交给你。
Nikhyl Singhal: And then I think that the second miss that people tend to have is they tend to, because they have power, by the way, organizational power, not because they've earned that power, they start managing whatever they define that to be.
尼克尔·辛哈尔（Nikhyl Singhal）：然后我认为人们倾向于拥有的第二个想法是他们倾向于，因为他们拥有权力，顺便说一句，组织权力，而不是因为他们已经赢得了这种权力，他们开始管理他们定义的任何东西。
And what I find is that you're more like the vampire knocking on the door of someone.
我发现你更像是敲别人门的吸血鬼。
You have to be invited in.
必须邀请你进来。
You just can't walk through the threshold.
你就是无法跨过门槛。
And I think that no matter how senior the person that is the manager, you have to earn the right to be the person's manager.
我认为，无论经理的级别有多高，你都必须赢得成为该人经理的权利。
So maybe to be specific, well, if I start managing someone, the thing I'd like to understand is like, "Hey, well, what can I help you with?" And they can invite me in.
所以也许具体来说，如果我开始管理某人，我想了解的是，“嘿，好吧，我能帮你什么？”他们可以邀请我进去。
Oftentimes, the answer is, "I don't need you.
通常，答案是：“我不需要你。
I actually wasn't excited about you as a manager.
事实上我对你作为经理并不感到兴奋。
I don't need another layer between you and the CEO.
我不需要你和首席执行官之间再有一层隔阂。
Get out." And I'm like, "That's cool," because anything I say after that is just going to be annoying and it's going to backfire.
出去吧。”我想，“那很酷”，因为在那之后我说的任何话都会很烦人，而且会适得其反。
Nikhyl Singhal: Now, one day they will need help, and I will be in the sidecar waiting to say, "Perhaps I can assist." And then when you finally get to that moment where you're invited in, you pick an area or two, and then you really partner with that person on that area.
尼克尔·辛哈尔：现在，有一天他们需要帮助，我会在边车里等着说：“也许我可以提供帮助。”然后，当你最终到达被邀请加入的那一刻时，你会选择一个或两个领域，然后你真正在该领域与那个人合作。
I can give examples on that, but I generally think that it's this invitation picking specific and then making sure we're sharing the responsibility is the key set of notes that I would share with you.
我可以举一些例子，但我一般认为，这次邀请的选择是具体的，然后确保我们分担责任，这是我要与你们分享的关键注释。
Lenny: What's your take on the IC path, senior IC path, something that a lot of companies talk about?
Lenny：对于很多公司都在谈论的 IC 路径、高级 IC 路径，你有何看法？
I know Meta is big on this right now, the layering managers and things like that.
我知道 Meta 现在在这方面很重要，比如分层管理器和类似的东西。
I find a lot of times there's a lot of talk about it and there's not really a real career opportunity there.
我发现很多时候人们对此有很多讨论，但实际上并没有真正的职业机会。
I guess, what's your just take on as that is a real option for most people trying to basically avoid the manager out and staying in IC, PM long term?
我想，对于大多数试图基本上避免经理离开并长期留在 IC、PM 的人来说，这是一个真正的选择，你对此有何看法？
Nikhyl Singhal: Yeah, I think that it's a little bit more acute now because of the backlash that we talked about between growth where management was perceived.
尼克尔·辛哈尔：是的，我认为现在情况变得更加严重了，因为我们谈到了管理增长之间的强烈反对。
So in this case, management was perceived as a way to drive expansion.
因此，在这种情况下，管理被视为推动扩张的一种方式。
So if you're in charge of expansion, you're managing the people that are doing the build and now we're doing a lot fewer things.
因此，如果您负责扩展，您就需要管理进行构建的人员，而现在我们要做的事情要少得多。
So I think that's what's mandated this sort of growth in the IC track, for lack of a better term.
所以我认为这就是 IC 赛道的这种增长的原因，因为缺乏更好的术语。
I think it is one of the best things that happened to our industry because what's happened is, in the last 10 years, and you can tell I'm particularly hard on our managers here, they've basically been promising ICs that early promoted into management.
我认为这是我们行业发生的最好的事情之一，因为在过去的 10 年里，你可以看出我对我们的经理特别严厉，他们基本上都是有前途的 IC，很早就晋升为管理层。
They didn't get taught, and now they're sort of average managers and promising ICs.
他们没有接受过教育，现在他们是一些普通的经理和有前途的IC。
But now the story that they tell and what they've built is not awesome.
但现在他们讲述的故事和他们建造的东西并不了不起。
Nikhyl Singhal: If I'm looking to hire, if I'm in a growth company and I'm the next hottest thing and I'm looking to hire someone and someone walks into the interview and said, "Look, I've managed two people before and then I was in the charge of this thing, but they really did the details.
尼克尔·辛哈尔（Nikhyl Singhal）：如果我正在寻找人才，如果我在一家成长型公司，并且我是下一个最热门的人，并且我正在寻找某人，有人走进面试并说：“看，我以前管理过两个人，然后我负责这件事，但他们确实做了细节。
And then by the way before that, I was early in trying to get this thing out the door and then they picked me to be manager," I'm like, "Okay, that's an interesting set of experiences.
顺便说一句，在那之前，我很早就试图把这件事推出去，然后他们选择我担任经理，”我想，“好吧，这是一系列有趣的经历。
I'm looking, for me, in my company to build something."
我正在寻找我自己的公司来创造一些东西。”
Nikhyl Singhal: The next person walks in, it's like, "I've been an IC for that whole time.
Nikhyl Singhal：下一个人走进来，就像是，“我一直都是 IC。
And during that time I went from learning something to demonstrating it to really being able to take it forward.
在那段时间里，我从学习一些东西到展示它，再到真正能够推动它前进。
And I got one of these ambiguities master.
我得到了这些歧义大师之一。
I'm an expert in domain.
我是领域专家。
I'm an expert in managing organizations," I'm like, "I don't need a team ambiguous expert.
我是管理组织的专家，”我想，“我不需要一个团队模棱两可的专家。
That's not my hard part.
这不是我的难点。
My hard part is actually cracking the code on this complex market or this very complicated organization where we have two teams that have different goals.
我的困难部分实际上是破解这个复杂的市场或这个非常复杂的组织的代码，我们有两个有着不同目标的团队。
You're the type of person I want."
你就是我想要的那种人。”
Nikhyl Singhal: So I think Lenny, to your question, I think the IC track is one of the best things that's going to happen for people career.
Nikhyl Singhal：所以我认为 Lenny，对于你的问题，我认为 IC 赛道是人们职业生涯中将会发生的最好的事情之一。
But to your point, those tracks, from a promotion and from a industry, how we perceive it, they're not in cement yet.
但就你的观点而言，这些轨道，来自促销和行业，我们如何看待它，它们还没有凝固。
They're tender.
他们很温柔。
You wait six months, you wait nine months, they'll become very, very strong and solid.
你等六个月，等九个月，它们就会变得非常非常坚固。
And I think then, we'll be able to lean very hard into them as a real promising crack for builders.
我认为，到那时，我们将能够非常努力地将它们作为对构建者来说真正有前途的裂缝。
Lenny: Your sense is, this is going to become more and more real as these layoffs have happened and kind of pullbacks on growth have happened.
莱尼：你的感觉是，随着裁员的发生以及增长的某种程度的回落，这将变得越来越真实。
Nikhyl Singhal: Yeah, I mean, if you think about it, it's the reality in engineering and design.
Nikhyl Singhal：是的，我的意思是，如果你仔细想想，这就是工程和设计的现实。
So in engineering, you can be the sort of VP of engineering or CTO, and in a design, a lot of designers become design managers, a lot of them stay as crafters.
因此，在工程领域，你可以担任工程副总裁或首席技术官，而在设计领域，很多设计师成为设计经理，其中很多人仍然担任工匠。
And then for whatever reason in product managers, maybe because they were managers in our title, we just all became managers.
然后，无论产品经理出于什么原因，也许因为他们是我们头衔中的经理，我们都成为了经理。
What about the product?
产品怎么样？
What about the other side?
那另一边呢？
So I actually think it's a bug that has existed for a long time that actually we're going to correct permanently now.
所以我实际上认为这是一个已经存在很长时间的错误，实际上我们现在将永久纠正。
Lenny: I wonder if part of it for PMs is, once you become a manager, this happens to me, I didn't want to be an IC anymore.
Lenny：我想知道对于 PM 来说，一旦你成为一名经理，这种情况是否会发生在我身上，我不想再成为一名 IC。
It's like, "I'm done with that.
就像是，“我已经完成了。
I really enjoy this management layer." And I imagine with engineers, maybe they'll enjoy the coding.
我真的很喜欢这个管理层。”我想对于工程师来说，也许他们会喜欢编码。
When I was an engineer I was like, "Oh, I don't want to just sit around and manage.
当我还是一名工程师时，我的想法是：“哦，我不想只是坐着管理。
I just want to code." So I wonder if there's any part of that.
我只是想写代码。”所以我想知道是否有其中的一部分。
Nikhyl Singhal: But a lot of your listeners like to build.
Nikhyl Singhal：但是很多听众都喜欢建造。
And actually, when they talk to their managers, they're like, "I don't know if that job is awesome.
事实上，当他们与经理交谈时，他们会说：“我不知道那份工作是否很棒。
It feels like you spend all your time writing docs and telling your boss's boss what to justify resources and headcount.
感觉就像您花费所有时间编写文档并告诉老板的老板如何证明资源和员工数量的合理性。
I just want to build stuff.
我只是想建造一些东西。
You don't build stuff." So I think there might be some of that.
你不建造东西。”所以我认为可能有一些。
I think that it's not perfect, but I think hopefully builder and IC will become more synonymous.
我认为它并不完美，但我希望构建器和 IC 会变得更加同义词。
Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Eppo.
Lenny：这一集是 Eppo 为您带来的。
Eppo is a next generation A/B testing platform built by Airbnb alums for modern growth teams.
Eppo 是 Airbnb 校友为现代增长团队打造的下一代 A/B 测试平台。
Companies like DraftKings, Zapier, ClickUp, Twitch, and Cameo rely on Eppo to power their experiments.
DraftKings、Zapier、ClickUp、Twitch 和 Cameo 等公司依靠 Eppo 来支持他们的实验。
Wherever you work, running experiments is increasingly essential, but there are no commercial tools that integrate with a modern grow team stack.
无论您在哪里工作，运行实验都变得越来越重要，但是没有可以与现代种植团队堆栈集成的商业工具。
This leads to waste of time building internal tools or trying to run your own experiments through a clunky marketing tool.
这会导致浪费时间构建内部工具或尝试通过笨重的营销工具进行自己的实验。
Lenny: When I was at Airbnb, one of the things that I loved most about working there was our experimentation platform where I was able to slice and dice data by device types, country, user stage.
Lenny：当我在 Airbnb 工作时，我最喜欢在那里工作的事情之一就是我们的实验平台，我可以在其中按设备类型、国家/地区、用户阶段对数据进行切片和切块。
Eppo does all that and more, delivering results quickly, avoiding knowing prolonged analytic cycles, and helping you easily get to the root cause of any issue you discover.
Eppo 可以做到所有这些，甚至更多，快速提供结果，避免延长分析周期，并帮助您轻松找到所发现问题的根本原因。
Eppo lets you go beyond basic, click-through metrics and instead use your North Star metrics like activation, retention, subscription, and payments.
Eppo 让您能够超越基本的点击率指标，而是使用您的北极星指标，例如激活、保留、订阅和付款。
Eppo supports test on the front end, on the back end, email marketing, even machine learning claims.
Eppo 支持前端、后端测试、电子邮件营销，甚至机器学习声明。
Check out Eppo at geteppo.com.
请访问 geteppo.com 查看 Eppo。
That's get eppo.com.
这就是 eppo.com。
And 10X your experiment velocity.
实验速度提高 10 倍。
Lenny: Coming back to the manager life and how many managers are not great and also just how do you get better as a manager, what have you found actually is effective in helping new managers become better?
莱尼：回到经理人的生活，有多少经理人并不出色，以及作为一名经理人如何变得更好，你发现什么实际上可以有效地帮助新经理人变得更好？
Nikhyl Singhal: I think I may have come across kind of hard on managers and I think I kind of said, "Hey, your manager and your manager's manager isn't really doing much teaching.
尼克尔·辛哈尔（Nikhyl Singhal）：我想我可能对经理们有些严厉，我想我说过，“嘿，你的经理和你经理的经理并没有真正做太多的教学。
Find the right podcast, good luck." And I think that that's a pretty soulless answer.
找到合适的播客，祝你好运。”我认为这是一个非常没有灵魂的答案。
So maybe the way I describe it is, well, I think learning is changing, and there's the self-service tools that are getting better and then there's the structured teaching which I think is weak.
所以也许我描述它的方式是，嗯，我认为学习正在发生变化，自助服务工具正在变得更好，然后我认为结构化教学很薄弱。
And then there's community, which I think whether it's within your company or outside of company, I think is the answer that we'll see more and more.
然后是社区，我认为无论是在公司内部还是公司外部，我认为这都是我们会看到越来越多的答案。
I think community as a way of creating safety, having authentic conversations, feeling that you're not alone, that others are going through the same thing, and then sharing best practices is so powerful.
我认为社区是一种创造安全、进行真实对话、感觉自己并不孤单、其他人正在经历同样的事情、然后分享最佳实践的方式，这种方式非常强大。
And what social software has done is it has really empowered community.
社交软件所做的就是它真正赋予了社区权力。
Nikhyl Singhal: And now the tools are awesome.
Nikhyl Singhal：现在的工具非常棒。
How many great communities have Slack channels or Discord channels or Zoom calls?
有多少优秀社区拥有 Slack 频道、Discord 频道或 Zoom 通话？
And we do a lot of that in the CPO community that I created.
我们在我创建的 CPO 社区中做了很多这样的事情。
Whether you're a new manager or whether you belong to a diverse group, whether you are new to a company, I think that all of your listeners should be part of an active community where they can be very authentic and very safe.
无论您是新经理还是属于多元化群体，无论您是公司的新人，我认为所有听众都应该成为活跃社区的一部分，在那里他们可以非常真实且非常安全。
Sometimes it's hard to do that with your coworkers, and so you need to find another community.
有时很难与同事一起做到这一点，因此您需要寻找另一个社区。
Unfortunately, those communities are not the easiest to find today, but I believe that the notion of community as a powerful propellant for learning is the critical ingredient and hopefully many people are creating these communities so that new managers can find the right services.
不幸的是，这些社区今天并不是最容易找到的，但我相信社区作为学习的强大推动力的概念是关键因素，希望许多人正在创建这些社区，以便新的管理者能够找到合适的服务。
Lenny: Can you actually talk about this community that you've built?
Lenny：你能具体谈谈你建立的这个社区吗？
This could be a good time to talk about it.
这可能是谈论这个问题的好时机。
It's called The Skip.
它的名字叫“跳过”。
Is that right?
是这样吗？
Nikhyl Singhal: Yeah.
尼克尔·辛哈尔：是的。
It's funny, it's all kind of fun products.
很有趣，都是一些有趣的产品。
They were always a reaction to something.
他们总是对某事的反应。
They weren't really intentional.
他们其实并不是故意的。
I, as you opened the podcast, did really enjoy teaching and coaching.
当你打开播客时，我真的很喜欢教学和辅导。
I learned just as much from coaching others as they learned, I think.
我认为，我从指导他人中学到的东西和他们学到的一样多。
And yet I couldn't really scale.
但我无法真正扩展。
So I had this summer where I had just come off of being a head of product, and more and more of my people I was talking to were also head of products.
今年夏天，我刚刚卸任产品主管，与我交谈的越来越多的人也成为了产品主管。
What would happen is, I would have these conversations and they would ask me a question.
会发生的事情是，我会进行这些对话，他们会问我一个问题。
I would say, "Well, that's the same conversation I answered on Tuesday." What you realize is, it's a very lonely job.
我会说：“嗯，这和我周二回答的对话是一样的。”你意识到这是一份非常孤独的工作。
Being lonely at the top is not just an adage.
身处巅峰孤独不只是一句格言。
Really, everyone's so busy now.
真的，现在大家都很忙。
It's like, how do you have time to connect?
就像，你怎么有时间联系？
Everything's a single player, you don't really have community.
一切都是一个玩家，你没有真正的社区。
Nikhyl Singhal: So I thought, "Well, what if I took the half a dozen people I talked to this month?" And I just said, "Hey, all of you are all interested in talking through how to navigate this crazy world of year one, year two, chief product officer.
尼克尔·辛哈尔（Nikhyl Singhal）：所以我想，“好吧，如果我带着这个月交谈过的六个人怎么样？”我只是说，“嘿，首席产品官，你们所有人都有兴趣讨论如何驾驭第一年、第二年这个疯狂的世界。
I think you would really gain.
我想你真的会有所收获。
I know all of you and I think you can be safe with one another.
我认识你们所有人，我认为你们彼此相处是安全的。
Why don't we spend some time together?" So we did a WhatsApp channel and we brought a Zoom call.
我们为什么不花一些时间在一起呢？”所以我们建立了 WhatsApp 频道并进行了 Zoom 通话。
This was during the pandemic, so you really couldn't meet up.
当时正值疫情期间，确实没能见面。
And we started talking.
我们开始交谈。
We started talking every month, and people were so empowered by the fact that the problem they were hitting was not just them.
我们开始每个月都进行交流，人们因为他们遇到的问题不仅仅是他们自己而感到非常有力量。
It was, "My crazy CEO is telling me this." And the next person is like, "Oh yeah?
它是，“我疯狂的首席执行官告诉我这个。”下一个人就像是，“哦，是吗？
Let me tell you what my person said." And then they would say, "Oh my gosh, that sounds worse than my situation."
让我告诉你我的人说了什么。”然后他们会说：“天哪，这听起来比我的情况更糟糕。”
Nikhyl Singhal: But then, we would sit down and say, "Hey, the third person said I actually kind of had this and now I figured out a way out, and here's what I did." And you're like, "Wow, that's amazing.
尼克尔·辛哈尔：但是后来，我们会坐下来说：“嘿，第三个人说我实际上有这种情况，现在我找到了解决办法，这就是我所做的。”你会说，“哇，太棒了。
I'm going to try it." The next day they come back, they're like, "It works." And we started to connect and we built this trust, and community building is interesting and powerful work.
我要尝试一下。”第二天他们回来时，他们会说：“这有效。”我们开始联系并建立了这种信任，社区建设是一项有趣且强大的工作。
So six went to 12, and then 12 went to 15, and now we have 28 members.
所以6个变成了12个，然后12个变成了15个，现在我们有28个成员。
A lot of folks are interested in these types of communities, but I'm so worried about scaling it because it's the enemy of trust and authenticity.
很多人对这些类型的社区感兴趣，但我非常担心扩展它，因为它是信任和真实性的敌人。
So for all of you that are building communities, it's like tree balancing act.
因此，对于所有正在建设社区的人来说，这就像树木平衡行为。
But I do think that the goal is to find ways to take all of this sort of like-minded folks that are in these same situations and connect them together.
但我确实认为我们的目标是找到方法将所有处于相同情况的志同道合的人联系在一起。
Late stage chief product officer happened to be one of the ones that had some of the most substantial importance to me because of all the coaching I did for that group.
后期首席产品官恰好是对我最重要的人之一，因为我为该团队提供了所有指导。
Lenny: If someone's listening and they're like, "Oh, I need to join this thing," how do they find out about it?
莱尼：如果有人在听并且他们说，“哦，我需要加入这个事情”，他们是如何发现的？
How do they potentially apply and try to join?
他们如何申请并尝试加入？
Nikhyl Singhal: Well, we have enough members now.
Nikhyl Singhal：嗯，我们现在有足够的成员了。
There's a LinkedIn area called The Skip CPO Community, and you should contact any of the members that you know and ask them to join.
LinkedIn 上有一个名为“Skip CPO 社区”的区域，您应该联系任何您认识的成员并邀请他们加入。
My request and my requirement is that they are, number one, product leaders in their organization and a company that's not early, but that's mid to late.
我的要求和我的要求是，他们是组织中的第一产品领导者，并且是一家不是早期的公司，而是中后期的公司。
And the reason being is, those sets of problems tend to be the most similar.
原因是，这些问题往往是最相似的。
To be honest, I think this is not the only community that I want to be part of and help create, but this one happens to be the preexisting one.
老实说，我认为这不是我想加入并帮助创建的唯一社区，但这一个恰好是我之前就存在的社区。
I think there are lots of powerful communities that can be created, but this particular one is very much focused on The Skip CPOs.
我认为可以创建很多强大的社区，但这个特定的社区非常关注 Skip CPO。
Lenny: Awesome.
莱尼：太棒了。
I'll mention the community around my newsletter just so folks are looking for a community join.
我会在我的时事通讯中提及社区，以便人们寻找社区加入。
I try not to promote these sorts of things, but it's a good time, may as well.
我尽量不提倡这类事情，但现在也是个好时机。
If you're a paid subscriber to my newsletter, there's a Slack community you get access to.
如果您是我的时事通讯的付费订阅者，您可以访问 Slack 社区。
There's about 12, 13,000 people in there.
那里大约有 12、13,000 人。
There's meetups happening all over the world every month.
每个月世界各地都会举办聚会。
It's amazing.
太棒了。
Very proud of it.
对此感到非常自豪。
People are getting a lot of value of it, and it's basically open to any level of product manager.
人们从中获得了很多价值，而且它基本上对任何级别的产品经理开放。
Other functions are in there too.
其他功能也在那里。
So it's a very different sort of experience, but willing to add that also in the show notes if you want to check that.
所以这是一种非常不同的体验，但如果你想检查的话，愿意将其添加到演出注释中。
Nikhyl Singhal: I think that that would be my put, because so many of the managers will say, "Hey, I'm an IC," here's a greater one, "I am not being told I have the next job.
尼克尔·辛哈尔：我认为这就是我的看法，因为很多经理会说，“嘿，我是一名 IC，”这里有一个更重要的说法，“我没有被告知我有下一份工作。
I just was told to become an IC and I was a manager.
我刚刚被告知要成为一名 IC，而我是一名经理。
I feel like my learning opportunities are stuck, but this is a bad time to look for a job." They should be in your community.
我觉得我的学习机会被困住了，但现在不是找工作的好时机。”他们应该在您的社区中。
They will learn more from that community than they will learn from managing one random person that they were attached to managing in some project that may or may not see the light of day, yet that's how our society is programmed.
他们从这个社区中学到的东西比从管理一个随机的人中学到的东西要多，他们在某个项目中所依赖的管理可能会或可能不会见光，但这就是我们社会的编程方式。
Our industry is like, "No, no, go manage that person because that's going to make you closer to the top.
我们的行业就像是，“不，不，去管理那个人，因为这会让你更接近顶端。
Forget learning." And I'm like, "Well, learning isn't happening.
忘记学习了。”我想，“好吧，学习并没有发生。
Learning's happening in your community.
学习正在您的社区中进行。
Learning is happening in our communities in general." That's why I'm pushing so hard on this.
总的来说，学习正在我们的社区中发生。”这就是为什么我如此努力地推动这一点。
Lenny: This is a good segue to talking about the third bucket, which is kind of later career CPOs.
Lenny：这是谈论第三个桶的一个很好的延续，这是后来的职业 CPO。
That's the segue in my mind there.
这就是我脑海中的segue。
Something that I've heard you talk about is that a lot of really senior leaders have real development areas, but they're hiding behind these superpowers that they have.
我听你说过，很多真正的高级领导者都有真正的发展领域，但他们隐藏在他们拥有的这些超能力背后。
Plus, people don't like to give real feedback to senior people.
另外，人们不喜欢向资深人士提供真实的反馈。
So I'd love to hear just what you're seeing there and how maybe people can work through that and what we can learn about that issue that you've noticed.
因此，我很想听听您在那里看到了什么，人们可以如何解决这个问题，以及我们可以从您注意到的问题中了解到什么。
Nikhyl Singhal: This came from my notes as I was talking to a therapist on this.
Nikhyl Singhal：这是我在与治疗师讨论此事时的笔记。
They talked about the shadows of superpowers.
他们谈论了超能力的阴影。
And I thought it was an incredibly powerful phrase that everyone focuses on your superpowers, but no one ever thinks about what shadows they create.
我认为这是一个非常强大的短语，每个人都专注于你的超能力，但没有人想过它们会产生什么阴影。
Shadows of superpowers to me is the story of a lot of executives.
对我来说，《超能力的阴影》是很多高管的故事。
There's an adage that's thrown around, which is, what gets you there isn't what got you here.
有一句流传甚广的格言，那就是，让你到达那里的东西并不是让你到达这里的东西。
It's sort of the tools that have made you successful today, you need to almost rebuild or relearn to get to the next phase.
这些工具让你今天取得了成功，你几乎需要重建或重新学习才能进入下一阶段。
And I think both of these sort of speak to the same point, that oftentimes people have a great superpower.
我认为这两点都说明了同一点，即人们常常拥有强大的超能力。
They go into a performance review, person says, "You're getting some feedback from your peers that you struggle in collaboration." And the manager even sometimes is puzzled, but the individual will say, "Are you kidding me?
有人说，他们会进行绩效评估，“你会从同事那里得到一些反馈，说你在合作方面遇到了困难。”经理有时甚至会感到困惑，但个人会说：“你在开玩笑吗？
My last five performance reviews told me that I was one of the best collaborators in the company.
我最近的五次绩效评估告诉我，我是公司中最好的合作者之一。
How in the world is that possible?"
这到底怎么可能？”
Nikhyl Singhal: And then what you realize is that, "Well, you're collaborating as long as people agreed with your point of view.
尼克尔·辛哈尔：然后你意识到，“好吧，只要人们同意你的观点，你就在合作。
Now as a leader, we're asking you to be opinionated, and because you just think you're an amazing collaborator using the exact same tool set.
现在，作为领导者，我们要求您坚持己见，因为您只是认为自己是使用完全相同的工具集的出色合作者。
And it turns out that when you're dealing with senior people, that may not even be in your function, they may not be product, they may not be tech, they recoil, but you're moving so fast because it's your superpower.
事实证明，当你与高级人员打交道时，这甚至可能不属于你的职能，他们可能不是产品，他们可能不是技术，他们会后退，但你行动如此之快，因为这是你的超能力。
You would never think that this needs to be rebuilt." Sometimes it could be more extreme.
你永远不会认为这里需要重建。”有时可能会更极端。
Great collaborators sometimes are very reticent to present their own opinions because they're so good at assimilating others.
优秀的合作者有时非常谨慎地表达自己的观点，因为他们非常善于吸收他人的观点。
Or people that are amazing at growth struggle to be innovative.
或者那些在成长方面表现出色的人却很难创新。
People that are world-class storytellers struggle to get in the details.
世界级的故事讲述者很难了解细节。
People that are very taste maker, they are always the first to have point of view.
很有品味的人，他们总是第一个提出观点。
They don't necessarily introduce change particularly often.
他们不一定特别频繁地引入变革。
You're strong politically, but your decisions are unprincipled.
你政治上很强，但你的决定没有原则。
You're a structured thinker, but blue-sky innovations are very tough.
你是一个结构化的思考者，但蓝天创新非常困难。
You're an amazing listener, but you're very weak to be decisive.
你是一位出色的倾听者，但你的果断能力却很弱。
I can go on forever.
我可以永远继续下去。
Nikhyl Singhal: And what I would say to you is, sometimes even in a 30-minute conversation, walking into the room, just knowing what I know about the person, I can unlock their development area faster than anyone ever before, simply because my secret is, I'll bet you, because of this person's world-class here, these are the three things they're going to hit.
尼克尔·辛哈尔：我要对你说的是，有时即使是在 30 分钟的谈话中，走进房间，只要知道我对这个人的了解，我就可以比以前任何人更快地解锁他们的发展领域，仅仅因为我的秘密是，我敢打赌，因为这个人在这里是世界级的，这些是他们将要达到的三件事。
And they don't even realize it because it's their identity.
他们甚至没有意识到这一点，因为这是他们的身份。
This is what got me here.
这就是我来到这里的原因。
If you make me work on that, you will make me change my superpower.
如果你让我努力做到这一点，你就会让我改变我的超能力。
And I'm like, "That's why you're stuck.
我想，“这就是你被困住的原因。
That's why your career is plateauing." And then they get sad and then they take a long time to process, and then the work actually begins and then they solve and they go.
这就是为什么你的职业生涯陷入停滞。”然后他们会感到悲伤，然后他们需要很长时间来处理，然后工作实际上开始了，然后他们解决了，然后就走了。
Almost everyone, once they have the name and the face, they're able to solve.
几乎每个人，只要知道了名字和面孔，就能解决问题。
But facing the name is hard when it's sitting in the shadows of superpowers.
但当它处于超级大国的阴影下时，面对这个名字是很困难的。
Lenny: Wow.
莱尼：哇。
That is an incredibly important point.
这是非常重要的一点。
For someone to recognize this, do you find that they need someone like you that's like a coach, mentor, person to come in, and be like, "Here's what I see"?
如果有人认识到这一点，你是否发现他们需要像你这样的人，就像教练、导师、进来的人一样，“这就是我所看到的”？
Or is there a way, I guess, as someone that's a peer or an employee to help them recognize this without them shutting down and being like, "No, shut up.
或者，我想，作为同事或员工，有没有一种方法可以帮助他们认识到这一点，而不会让他们闭嘴并说：“不，闭嘴。
No problem'?
没问题吗？
Nikhyl Singhal: No, you don't need a coach.
尼克尔·辛哈尔：不，你不需要教练。
What you do need is to listen to contradictory feedback.
你真正需要的是倾听矛盾的反馈。
So what was the premise here is you're being told that something that you hold as your strength is actually in your way or a development area.
所以这里的前提是你被告知你所拥有的优势实际上是你的道路或发展领域的障碍。
Do not dismiss that.
不要忽视这一点。
Recognize most likely you're doing it correctly.
认识到您很可能做得正确。
You just have gotten to the next level.
你刚刚达到了一个新的水平。
So what I'm hoping the listener does is it goes back through all the feedback that they may even have and then looks at all the discard stuff.
所以我希望听众做的是回顾他们可能拥有的所有反馈，然后查看所有丢弃的内容。
What's on the discard pile?
废弃堆里有什么？
Things that were discarded are anomalies because they're artifacts of my strength.
被丢弃的东西是异常的，因为它们是我力量的神器。
And often, your managers are the ones that do the discarding, "Oh, that was just a weird...
通常，你的经理是那些丢弃的人，“哦，这只是一个奇怪的......
That person, they were just into it.
那个人，他们只是喜欢而已。
They have it out for you.
他们已经为你准备好了。
They got reorged or they were upset." I'm like, "No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Perception's reality.
他们要么重组，要么心烦意乱。”我说，“不，不，不，不，不，不，不，不。感知的现实。
Talk to me about that one.
和我谈谈那个吧。
That might be it." That's what I'm looking for.
可能就是这样。”这就是我正在寻找的。
Lenny: Fascinating.
莱尼：令人着迷。
This makes me think about companies that have the same issue, companies strengths, like say Meta for example, move fast and break things and then, "Oh, that ends up being the biggest Achilles' heel." Uber, similar.
这让我想到有同样问题的公司，公司的优势，比如 Meta，快速行动并打破常规，然后，“哦，这最终成为最大的阿喀琉斯之踵。”优步，类似。
Airbnb has similar challenges like that.
Airbnb 也面临着类似的挑战。
Nikhyl Singhal: Absolutely.
尼克尔·辛哈尔：当然。
This exact thing applies to relationships.
这句话同样适用于人际关系。
This applies to companies, this applies to a lot.
这适用于公司，这适用于很多人。
And I'm so happy that I was able to learn about it.
我很高兴我能够了解它。
Frankly, it was a critical unlock for me because I was stuck on something for years and I just could not understand how, for me, it was, I was very opinionated about something.
坦率地说，这对我来说是一个关键的解锁，因为我多年来一直坚持某件事，我只是无法理解，对我来说，我为什么对某件事非常固执己见。
And then I realized being loosely held on my opinions didn't mean that I became a weaker executive, but it was my opinions that got me to be so successful and it required me to rewire who I was as an executive.
然后我意识到，松散地坚持自己的观点并不意味着我会成为一名较弱的高管，但正是我的观点让我如此成功，这需要我重新定位自己作为一名高管的身份。
And that took a lot of time and a lot of energy.
这花费了大量的时间和精力。
But it came from this realization and then I started to apply it for other strength areas.
但它来自于这种认识，然后我开始将其应用到其他优势领域。
And now, every time I have a strength area of myself for those that I coach, I immediately talk through all the things that I bet you exist and most of the time were right.
现在，每当我对我所指导的人有自己的强项时，我都会立即谈论所有我打赌你存在的事情，而且大多数时候都是正确的。
Lenny: So what is it for you that you said was your superpower and your shadow?
莱尼：那么你所说的你的超能力和你的影子对你来说到底是什么？
Nikhyl Singhal: I think that I was, as an entrepreneur, very opinionated about using small amounts of information to make decisions.
Nikhyl Singhal：我认为，作为一名企业家，我非常坚持使用少量信息来做出决策。
And then I was very good at driving those things.
然后我非常擅长驾驶这些东西。
So when you become an entrepreneur, you're great at grit, you're great at opinion, you're great at being decisive.
因此，当你成为一名企业家时，你非常有毅力，你很善于发表意见，你很善于果断。
And then as an executive, you spend a lot of time making sure everyone has context, everyone is heard, your opinions are actually edited for good reason.
然后，作为一名高管，你会花很多时间确保每个人都有背景，每个人都被听到，你的意见实际上得到了充分的理由编辑。
And it's not just to placate, it's actually to improve.
这不仅仅是为了安抚，实际上是为了改进。
But as someone who's basically been right a lot, that requires almost a complete and you're like, "Well, that's not who I am." And I'm like, "Okay, you start with the sentence like that's not who I am." You're definitely doing it right when you hit your leadership.
但作为一个基本上是正确的人，这需要几乎完整的，你会说，“好吧，那不是我。”我说，“好吧，你从这句话开始就好像我不是这样的人。”当你发挥领导力时，你肯定做得对。
Lenny: What was the process like for you to work through that?
Lenny：你完成这个工作的过程是怎样的？
You said it took a long time.
你说花了很长时间。
What made it effective for you?
是什么让它对你有效？
Was there a coach involved?
有教练参与吗？
Something else?
还有别的事吗？
Nikhyl Singhal: I got a lot of setback.
尼克尔·辛哈尔：我遇到了很多挫折。
I get a lot of negative feedback.
我收到很多负面反馈。
I had a lot of abrupt challenges at work where folks would say, "You're not collaborating well.
我在工作中遇到了很多突然的挑战，人们会说：“你合作得不好。
Your peers don't have the same level of respect as they should." And I was like, "Are you kidding me?
你的同龄人没有得到应有的尊重。”我当时想，“你在开玩笑吗？
That's not who I am.
我不是这样的人。
These things that are being said about are completely ironic." I was very much struggling and that's when I said, "You know what?
人们所说的这些事情完全是讽刺。”我非常挣扎，就在那时我说：“你知道吗？
I can struggle and blame others, but what if they were right?
我可以挣扎并责备别人，但如果他们是对的怎么办？
I'm going to be doing this for 30 more years, it's kind of worth it to figure out if they're right.
我还要再做 30 年，弄清楚他们是否正确是值得的。
If they're wrong, then you don't lose." And that's what kind of forced it.
如果他们错了，你也不会输。”这就是强迫的原因。
And then the tooling starts, then you start talking through.
然后工具开始使用，然后你就开始讨论。
My self-awareness was strong enough that I was able to say, "Okay, now I understand it." I had some peer feedback that helped bring it home from someone I trusted.
我的自我意识足够强，我能够说：“好吧，现在我明白了。”我从我信任的人那里得到了一些同行的反馈，这些反馈帮助我把它带回家。
So that was a kind of linchpin to this, but these are tough, tough things to break through.
所以这是一个关键，但这些都是很难突破的事情。
And oftentimes they don't come nicely, I guess, is the point.
我想，重点是，它们往往表现得并不好。
Lenny: I was going to ask what that turning point for you was, and it sounds like it was direct feedback from someone you really trusted that's like, "Oh, I really need to take this seriously."
莱尼：我本来想问你的转折点是什么，听起来像是来自你真正信任的人的直接反馈，就像，“哦，我真的需要认真对待这件事。”
Nikhyl Singhal: You got it.
尼克尔·辛哈尔：你明白了。
You got it.
你明白了。
Because I had a lot of feedback that I was dismissing and then I had feedback from someone, I'm like, "That person I should listen to because they're giving me the feedback for the right reasons and they have the right language."
因为我收到了很多我忽略的反馈，然后又收到了某人的反馈，我想，“我应该听那个人的意见，因为他们出于正确的原因向我提供反馈，并且他们有正确的语言。”
Lenny: Comes back to the power of getting feedback and getting good at that.
莱尼：回到获得反馈并擅长这一点的力量。
Nikhyl Singhal: And making people feel safe and giving it.
Nikhyl Singhal：让人们感到安全并给予它。
Lenny: Mm-hmm.
莱尼：嗯嗯。
That's a good segue to maybe the last question.
这也许是最后一个问题的一个很好的延续。
You told me once that a lot of the people that you work with that have kind of made it have a lot of mental health challenges, that they didn't expect their life to be the way it is necessarily when they got there.
你曾经告诉我，与你一起工作的很多人都面临着很多心理健康挑战，他们没想到自己的生活会像他们到达那里时那样。
Can you just talk about what you see there in that group?
您能谈谈您在该小组中看到的情况吗？
Nikhyl Singhal: Yeah.
尼克尔·辛哈尔：是的。
This is a story that I don't think is told very well right now, and partly because it's such a luxury problem, it's almost a little embarrassing to discuss it openly as so many people struggle with so many basic needs, going through layoffs, going through all these challenges.
我认为这个故事现在没有被很好地讲述，部分原因是这是一个如此奢侈的问题，公开讨论它几乎有点尴尬，因为这么多人在这么多基本需求中挣扎，经历裁员，经历所有这些挑战。
I mean, these are real issues.
我的意思是，这些都是真正的问题。
But I think that what I've noticed is that if you kind of break career as we've done in this podcast between sort of act one, act two and act three, if act one is sort of learning and being that sort of builder and then maybe building the car, and then act two is building the factory, act three is like, what's after that?
但我认为我注意到的是，如果你像我们在播客中在第一幕、第二幕和第三幕之间所做的那样打破职业生涯，如果第一幕是学习并成为那种建造者，然后可能建造汽车，然后第二幕是建造工厂，第三幕就像，那之后是什么？
What do you do after that?
之后你做什么？
And I think that act three in the past wasn't as long as it is now.
我认为过去的第三幕没有现在那么长。
Before, people would proverbially retire in their 60s when they used to actually physically work.
以前，当人们真正从事体力工作时，众所周知，他们会在 60 多岁时退休。
Nikhyl Singhal: Now almost all your listeners sit at a desk all day, so they don't need to retire by any means.
Nikhyl Singhal：现在几乎所有的听众都整天坐在办公桌前，所以他们无论如何都不需要退休。
And health is getting better.
而且健康状况也越来越好。
You might see folks work until their 70s or 80s.
你可能会看到人们工作到 70 岁或 80 岁。
So that means that their careers are potentially 60 years long.
这意味着他们的职业生涯可能长达 60 年。
So even if you're 20 years or 30 years in your career, you're only halfway through.
因此，即使你的职业生涯已经有 20 年或 30 年，你也只走了一半。
So this act three could be a thing.
所以第三幕可能会很重要。
And I don't think we talk about act three enough.
我认为我们对第三幕的讨论还不够。
What often happens is, and this is what I've been watching for people that are at my age, is they sort of succeed and then they become lost.
经常发生的情况是，这就是我一直在观察与我同龄的人的情况，他们取得了成功，然后又迷失了方向。
They almost goes hand in hand.
他们几乎齐头并进。
Nikhyl Singhal: So when I was a kid and I was growing up in the Midwest, entertainment was going to the dog tracks, and not even the horse tracks, we didn't have horses.
尼克尔·辛哈尔（Nikhyl Singhal）：所以当我还是个孩子的时候，我是在中西部长大的，娱乐活动都集中在狗场，甚至连赛马场也没有，我们没有马。
So it was the greyhound dog tracks.
这就是灰狗的踪迹。
So people would bet on a dog and greyhound would go around the ring and then you would see.
所以人们会打赌狗和灰狗会绕着拳击场转一圈，然后你就会看到。
I bet on number three and I'll make a buck or something.
我赌第三，我会赚点钱什么的。
The way that they motivated the dogs was they had these fake rabbits, which sounds kind of cruel and horrible, so I don't want the SPCA to come after you.
他们激励狗的方式是他们养了这些假兔子，这听起来有点残忍和可怕，所以我不希望 SPCA 来追捕你。
But the point is that they'd have these fake rabbits.
但关键是他们有这些假兔子。
And what was interesting is, the moment that the dogs, if they accidentally touched the rabbit, the sort of the tail because the machine broke, because these tails would go around faster than the dogs, which would then motivate the dogs to go around in circles.
有趣的是，当狗不小心碰到兔子的那一刻，机器坏了的那种尾巴，因为这些尾巴会比狗转得快，然后就会激励狗转圈。
Sometimes the machines would break, the dogs would actually catch the rabbit, they would never run again.
有时机器会坏掉，狗实际上会抓住兔子，它们再也不会跑了。
Nikhyl Singhal: The reason why they wouldn't run again is because there was like, "Well, what's next?
尼克尔·辛哈尔（Nikhyl Singhal）：他们不再参选的原因是，“接下来会发生什么？
I've achieved what I was looking for." So I think this happens a ton.
我已经实现了我所追求的目标。”所以我认为这种情况经常发生。
It's like, your listeners are spending time focused on like, "Well, one day I will be X.
就像，你的听众花时间专注于这样的事情：“好吧，有一天我会成为 X。
I will be that vice president.
我将成为那个副总统。
I will have more money.
我会有更多的钱。
I will have built something.
我会建造一些东西。
I will have started a company." But they don't think about what happens next, and when it happens, when they succeed, their North Star, their entire way of wiring their career, themselves, it has been around getting to that place.
我将创办一家公司。”但他们不会考虑接下来会发生什么，当它发生时，当他们成功时，他们的北极星，他们整个职业生涯的方式，他们自己，都是为了到达那个地方。
And I think that if you're going to get there 30 years in and you have a 60-year career, a lot of the discussion I've been having with myself and with others has been, you probably need to start working on that North Star now.
我认为，如果你要在 30 年后实现这一目标，并且拥有 60 年的职业生涯，我与自己和其他人进行的很多讨论都是，你可能现在就需要开始研究北极星了。
Nikhyl Singhal: What's the second thing?
尼克尔·辛哈尔：第二件事是什么？
What's your career next look like?
你接下来的职业生涯是什么样的？
How do you ensure that you are always going to have something important and motivating to do with your career?
您如何确保在您的职业生涯中始终能够做一些重要且具有激励作用的事情？
Otherwise, you'll keep working because you had no nothing else to do, but you'll be sadder, or you'll find ways to create war when peace is needed, or you'll spend money in an attempt to earn more, or you'll find habits that are bad.
否则，你会继续工作，因为你无事可做，但你会更加悲伤，或者你会在需要和平时想方设法制造战争，或者你会花钱试图赚更多钱，或者你会发现不好的习惯。
And I really want us to have long 60-year, 70-year careers, not just 30-year or 10-year, which is why I enter this into the vocabulary out there.
我真的希望我们能够拥有长达 60 年、70 年的职业生涯，而不仅仅是 30 年或 10 年，这就是为什么我将其纳入词汇表中。
Lenny: That is really resonating with me.
莱尼：这确实引起了我的共鸣。
I had a similar experience.
我也有类似的经历。
I had a startup, and my whole goal was just like, "I just want to start a company." That's my goal.
我有一家初创公司，我的整个目标就是“我只想创办一家公司”。这就是我的目标。
That's all I got in life.
这就是我一生所得到的一切。
I want to start a company and then maybe sell it, maybe go somewhere with it.
我想创办一家公司，然后也许会把它卖掉，也许带着它去某个地方。
So I did and then we sold it to Airbnb and then I got to Airbnb and I was just like, "What the hell do I do now?
所以我就这么做了，然后我们把它卖给了 Airbnb，然后我又去了 Airbnb，我当时就想，“我现在到底该怎么办？
I don't have any other goals." And it was pretty sad.
我没有任何其他目标。”这是非常悲伤的。
Exactly how you're describing.
正是你所描述的。
It was just like, "I guess I'll just work here and I don't know, maybe I'll start another company, but I already did the thing I wanted to do."
就像，“我想我会在这里工作，我不知道，也许我会创办另一家公司，但我已经做了我想做的事情。”
Nikhyl Singhal: Your story is I think very inspiring because what you did is you said, "I think the thing that I want to do is give, but I want to do it in my own way and I want to create something, but I want to do something that I think I can do for 30 years and I want to do it." It has lots and lots of spokes to it.
尼克尔·辛哈尔：我认为你的故事非常鼓舞人心，因为你所做的是你说的，“我认为我想做的事情是给予，但我想以自己的方式去做，我想创造一些东西，但我想做一些我认为我可以做30年的事情，我想做。”它有很多很多的辐条。
So you reinvented yourself professionally, but you created a new North Star.
所以你在职业上重塑了自己，但你创造了一个新的北极星。
Nikhyl Singhal: My sense is, for every one of you, Lenny, there's a hundred that could do that, that could do giving, that could do things that could scale, but that end up falling into what got them to be successful in act two and they get stuck.
尼克尔·辛哈尔：我的感觉是，莱尼，对于你们每个人来说，都有一百个人可以做到这一点，可以做奉献，可以做可以扩大规模的事情，但最终陷入了让他们在第二幕中取得成功的困境，他们陷入了困境。
So this is the reason why when you hit your skip, keep looking for the next skip, is the point I'm trying to make.
所以这就是为什么当你点击跳跃时，继续寻找下一个跳跃，这就是我想要表达的观点。
And I think you're an inspiration for a lot of folks who have seen you transition and realizes life after just being a tech professional entrepreneur, there's got to be ways to do more of this for all of your listeners.
我认为你对很多人来说都是一种鼓舞，他们见证了你的转变，并意识到在成为一名技术专业企业家之后的生活，必须有办法为你的所有听众做更多的事情。
And I think it's never too early to start thinking through.
我认为开始思考永远不会太早。
It's actually quite powering to think that you have such a long career.
想到自己拥有如此漫长的职业生涯，实际上是非常令人振奋的。
You can make mistakes and you can do some amazing things down the road.
你可能会犯错误，但你可以在未来做出一些令人惊奇的事情。
Lenny: Yeah.
莱尼：是的。
This is my fourth career, is what I realized.
这是我的第四个职业，是我所认识到的。
I was a engineer, then a founder, then a product manager, and now whatever this is.
我是一名工程师，然后是创始人，然后是产品经理，现在无论这是什么。
Lenny: Whatever this is.
莱尼：不管这是什么。
I guess, just to give people something inspiring, productive, what are maybe some examples of North Stars you've seen that people can evolve into?
我想，只是为了给人们一些鼓舞人心、富有成效的东西，你见过哪些北极星的例子，人们可以进化成什么？
I guess one path is this path of content creation, helping people learn stuff.
我想一条路径就是内容创建的路径，帮助人们学习东西。
What else have you seen that might work out for people?
您还看到了什么可能对人们有用的东西？
Nikhyl Singhal: I think that all variations here come into two categories.
Nikhyl Singhal：我认为这里的所有变化都分为两类。
One categories are ways to drive more scaled economics.
其中一类是推动更大规模经济的方法。
I've made millions.
我已经赚了几百万了。
My North Star is to now make it tens.
我的北极星现在已经达到十了。
I've made tens.
我已经做了几十个了
My North star is to do hundreds.
我的北极星是做数百个。
That's what drives people from, it's not entrepreneurship, it's investing; it's not investing, it's private equity, et cetera.
这就是人们的动力，不是创业，而是投资；这不是投资，而是私募股权等等。
Whether we describe that as a bad quest or a good quest is a decision for your listener.
我们是否将其描述为坏任务或好任务取决于您的听众的决定。
The other arc is around giving.
另一个弧线是围绕给予。
Eastern philosophies that have been around for thousands of years talk about this as the sort of end state of happiness.
已经存在了数千年的东方哲学认为这是幸福的终极状态。
I think that maybe to be provocative, I think that it's okay for you in act one and act two to not predicate yourself around the notion of giving to others because this is maybe the time on the planet where you need to take and you need to create.
我认为这也许是为了挑衅，我认为你在第一幕和第二幕中不以给予他人的概念为前提是可以的，因为这可能是地球上你需要接受和需要创造的时间。
Nikhyl Singhal: But boy, if you're going to work on an act three and you have 30 years, regardless of where you are economically, if you feel like you can take that off the table, if you can find ways to give, whatever that means to you, however that translates to you, is that content, is that volunteer, is that starting a company that is more mission based, that is not my role, but I think that if you are able to do that for 30 years and be giving, not only is that going to be more fulfilling than your act one and act two, but it's tremendous for society, very empowering.
尼克尔·辛哈尔：但是，孩子，如果你要从事第三幕，你还有 30 年的时间，无论你的经济状况如何，如果你觉得你可以把它从桌面上剔除，如果你能找到给予的方式，无论这对你意味着什么，无论这对你意味着什么，是内容，是志愿者，是创办一家更加基于使命的公司，那不是我的角色，但我认为，如果你能够这样做 30 年并不断给予，那么这不仅是这将比你的第一幕和第二幕更有成就感，但这对社会来说是巨大的，非常有力量。
And that's where I commend you because you're giving through your passion but also making a livelihood.
这就是我赞扬你的地方，因为你通过你的热情奉献，同时也谋生。
And I think that that's a very powerful blend that is hard to achieve in act one and act two given constraints.
我认为这是一个非常强大的融合，在第一幕和第二幕的限制下很难实现。
And that's the liberation that act three provides.
这就是第三幕提供的解放。
Lenny: What do you think your act three plus ends up being?
莱尼：你觉得你的第三幕加上最后会是什么样子？
Nikhyl Singhal: Many have asked me about this.
尼克尔·辛哈尔：很多人问过我这个问题。
I would say that I'll use the word, and then I'll tell you I won't use that word.
我会说我会使用这个词，然后我会告诉你我不会使用这个词。
So it is around my passion around coaching and giving to others.
所以这是围绕着我对指导和给予他人的热情。
But because I'm a product person, because I've seen success in building products, thinking about scale, thinking about community, I definitively plan to devote my act three towards coaching and giving to others and lifting up those that with the right advice at the right time can change their trajectory.
但因为我是一名产品人员，因为我在构建产品、思考规模、思考社区方面取得了成功，所以我明确计划将我的第三幕致力于指导和给予他人，并提升那些在正确的时间提供正确的建议可以改变他们的轨迹的人。
But scaling that and doing that in a way that is very authentic is really the hardest part and it's product problem.
但扩展规模并以非常真实的方式做到这一点确实是最困难的部分，也是产品问题。
So that's what I'll devote 30 years to and I look forward to that every day.
这就是我将投入30年的事业，并且我每天都期待着这一点。
Lenny: That is beautiful.
莱尼：那真是太美了。
That feels like an exactly correct fit for you, and I'm here to help you on that journey any way I can.
这感觉非常适合您，我会尽我所能在您的旅程中为您提供帮助。
Lenny: Absolutely.
莱尼：当然。
Is there anything else you wanted to touch on before we get to our very exciting lightning round?
在我们开始激动人心的闪电回合之前，您还有什么想谈的吗？
Nikhyl Singhal: No, I just appreciate your genuine offer to have me attend and participate in this wonderful podcast that you created.
Nikhyl Singhal：不，我只是感谢您真诚地邀请我参加您创建的这个精彩的播客。
Lenny: It's absolutely my pleasure.
莱尼：这绝对是我的荣幸。
And it's not over yet.
事情还没有结束。
We've reached our very exciting lightning round.
我们已经进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。
I've got six questions for you.
我有六个问题要问你。
Are you ready?
你准备好了吗？
Lenny: What are two or three books that you've recommended most to other people?
莱尼：你向其他人推荐最多的两三本书是什么？
Nikhyl Singhal: So two, and both business books.
Nikhyl Singhal：所以两本，而且都是商业书籍。
Sorry, I'm going to come across boring.
抱歉，我会觉得很无聊。
But one is this sort of little bit of an old school book called Crossing the Chasm by Geoffrey Moore.
但其中一本是一本有点老旧的教科书，名叫杰弗里·摩尔（Geoffrey Moore）的《跨越鸿沟》。
I don't know if other speakers have spoken about this, but it's a book that Geoffrey Moore wrote, and it's a book that really talks about how to get your first product on base.
我不知道其他演讲者是否谈到过这一点，但这是杰弗里·摩尔写的一本书，这本书真正讨论了如何让你的第一个产品落地。
So it's this concept of creating a beachhead.
这就是创建滩头阵地的概念。
I like that concept.
我喜欢这个概念。
Marketing is something that we don't talk about in enough and product.
营销是我们在足够和产品中不谈论的事情。
Nikhyl Singhal: And then the second one is a book that none of your listeners have actually probably heard of called Leadership and Self-Deception.
尼克尔·辛哈尔：第二本书是一本你的听众可能都没有听说过的书，叫做《领导力与自欺欺人》。
It's a six-hour audio that I highly recommend.
这是我强烈推荐的六小时音频。
It's a story about a person who has hit a wall and who's getting all this feedback that they don't know what to make of, and it's around their mindset being stuck in a box.
这是一个关于一个人碰壁的故事，他得到了所有这些反馈，但他们不知道该怎么办，而且他们的心态被困在盒子里。
That was very powerful when I listened to it in my late 20s.
当我20多岁的时候听到这首歌时，那感觉非常震撼。
So I encourage all of your listeners to grab that one.
所以我鼓励所有听众都抓住这一点。
It's not one that anyone normally would hit, but it's a fun story.
这不是任何人通常会击中的，但这是一个有趣的故事。
It's a good ride, and I think maybe you'll get something out of it.
这是一次很好的旅程，我想也许你会从中得到一些东西。
Lenny: I have not heard of that second one.
莱尼：我没听说过第二个。
I'm excited to check it out.
我很高兴去看看。
I have Crossing the Chasm back behind me on that shelf somewhere.
我把《跨越鸿沟》放在我身后的那个架子上的某个地方。
And you talk about how marketing isn't something product leaders and managers think about enough, and I have many marketing-oriented guests on this podcast and those episodes do the least well, but I'm just going to keep doing it because I totally agree with you.
你谈到营销并不是产品领导者和经理考虑得足够多的事情，我在这个播客上有很多以营销为导向的嘉宾，这些剧集做得最差，但我会继续这样做，因为我完全同意你的观点。
I think there's so much to learn from marketing.
我认为营销有很多值得学习的地方。
It's connected to growth, which is connected to product.
它与增长有关，而增长又与产品有关。
So I agree.
所以我同意。
Nikhyl Singhal: Yeah, and I think that marketing is a language of connecting products with people.
Nikhyl Singhal：是的，我认为营销是一种将产品与人联系起来的语言。
That is what a product manager does, but we often lack the language.
这就是产品经理所做的，但我们常常缺乏语言。
We lack the thinking around how to explain it, and yet we spend all our time on data and features for that.
我们缺乏如何解释它的思考，但我们却把所有的时间都花在了数据和特征上。
The diversity of having both playbooks can make one of just a much more powerful builder.
拥有两本剧本的多样性可以使其中一本成为更强大的构建者。
So I agree with you.
所以我同意你的观点。
Marketing folks is probably some of the best content and the least listen to.
营销人员可能是内容最好但听得最少的人。
So maybe that's a plug for people to go back to those episodes.
所以也许这是一个让人们回到那些剧集的插件。
Lenny: 100%.
莱尼：100%。
That's what everyone should do.
这是每个人都应该做的。
I don't know if you know this, but actually, at Airbnb, the product manager function has been renamed to product marketing.
我不知道你是否知道这一点，但实际上，在Airbnb，产品经理的职能已经更名为产品营销。
So all the product managers are product marketers because Brian is so big on, you're not just building product, your job is also to make sure people use it.
所以所有的产品经理都是产品营销人员，因为布莱恩非常热衷于，你不仅要构建产品，你的工作还要确保人们使用它。
We'll see how that experiment goes, but that's a bold move I thought.
我们将看看这个实验如何进行，但我认为这是一个大胆的举动。
Nikhyl Singhal: Very much so.
尼克尔·辛哈尔：非常如此。
Very much.
非常。
But it's an homage to this concept.
但这是对这个概念的致敬。
Lenny: Exactly.
莱尼：没错。
Okay, back to landing ground.
好的，回到着陆场。
What is a favorite recent movie or TV show?
最近最喜欢的电影或电视节目是什么？
Nikhyl Singhal: I'm a huge sports fan, so I have tickets to the Warriors and 49ers, and I am a big Bay Area sports fan.
Nikhyl Singhal：我是一个超级体育迷，所以我有勇士队和 49 人队的门票，而且我是湾区的超级体育迷。
Giannis is my son's favorite player.
扬尼斯是我儿子最喜欢的球员。
He's a basketball player for the Milwaukee Bucks, and they have this Disney+ story called the Rise story, and it's a story about his childhood and how he struggled to find notoriety and how he made it into the professional leagues.
他是密尔沃基雄鹿队的一名篮球运动员，他们有一个名为“崛起故事”的 Disney+ 故事，这是一个关于他的童年的故事，以及他如何努力寻找恶名以及如何进入职业联盟。
It's a great Disney+ family show and it's a great kind of zero to hero type thing.
这是一部很棒的迪士尼+家庭剧，也是一部很棒的从零到英雄类型的作品。
So I love that story.
所以我喜欢这个故事。
Lenny: I feel like you're going to have a really good answer to this next one.
莱尼：我觉得你会对下一个问题有一个非常好的答案。
What is a favorite interview question that you like to ask?
您最喜欢问的面试问题是什么？
Nikhyl Singhal: I like the format of, what's something that everyone takes for granted that you think is essentially hogwash or inaccurate?
Nikhyl Singhal：我喜欢这样的形式，有哪些大家都认为理所当然但你认为本质上是废话或不准确的东西？
Sometimes I'll ask a manager, "Look, you've managed hundreds of people in your career, what's conventional wisdom that you bet against that you have found is actually inaccurate?" And you can do that for what do people think about AI, that's inaccurate, that everyone believes you could do that for domains, you can do all kinds of things.
有时我会问经理，“看，你在职业生涯中管理过数百名员工，你发现哪些传统观点是不准确的？”你可以根据人们对人工智能的看法来做到这一点，这是不准确的，每个人都认为你可以在领域中做到这一点，你可以做各种各样的事情。
Lenny: I love it.
莱尼：我喜欢。
Is there something you specifically look for there, or is it just depends on what you hear?
那里有你特别寻找的东西，还是仅仅取决于你听到的？
Nikhyl Singhal: I'm always looking for people to break this sort of interview mindset.
Nikhyl Singhal：我一直在寻找能够打破这种面试心态的人。
Everyone always prepares for interviews and then their entire conversation is predicting what you think you want me to say.
每个人总是为采访做准备，然后他们的整个谈话都是在预测你认为你想让我说的话。
And as a result, you can have high-quality people that you dismiss because they weren't genuine.
结果，你可能会拥有一些高素质的人才，但你会因为他们不真诚而解雇他们。
There's no way to answer that question without being genuinely opinionated because it starts with, "What is the thing that you think I want to say here?
如果不真诚地固执己见，就无法回答这个问题，因为它首先是：“你认为我想说的是什么？
And then tell me why it's inaccurate." So when I break that wall, I'm testing, is this person authentic?
然后告诉我为什么它不准确。”所以当我打破那堵墙时，我正在测试，这个人是真实的吗？
Because sometimes I'm dismissing them because they told me nothing new, but I don't want the interview process to penalize them.
因为有时我会解雇他们，因为他们没有告诉我什么新东西，但我不希望面试过程惩罚他们。
And this was my save question, but I can't use it now that I've told everyone.
这是我保存的问题，但现在我已经告诉了大家，我不能使用它。
Lenny: It's going to be all over TikTok soon.
莱尼：很快就会遍布 TikTok。
Everyone's going to know this.
每个人都会知道这一点。
Next question, what's a favorite recent product that you've discovered that you love?
下一个问题是，您最近发现自己喜欢的最喜欢的产品是什么？
Nikhyl Singhal: The geeky answer in me is the Arc Browser, which I think probably a lot of folks are starting to use and your listeners.
Nikhyl Singhal：我心中的极客答案是 Arc 浏览器，我想可能很多人和你的听众都开始使用它。
Part of the reason is, I think it's just great for folks that have hundreds of tabs, and if you work at a scaled organization, you just have lots of tabs.
部分原因是，我认为这对于拥有数百个选项卡的人来说非常有用，如果您在规模较大的组织中工作，那么您就只有很多选项卡。
But I think it's also, as a product guy, I thought Chrome was pretty good.
但我认为，作为一名产品人员，我也认为 Chrome 相当不错。
They've got gajillions of people using it and billions of installs.
他们有无数的人在使用它，并且有数十亿的安装量。
So at some point, you kind of come to the conclusion that this is probably good enough.
所以在某些时候，你会得出这样的结论：这可能已经足够好了。
And then you see a product obviously built with a much smaller team and you're like, "Huh, there actually is opportunities to innovate." And any time you see a innovation on something that's mature, as a product person, I think that's just fascinating.
然后你看到一个产品显然是由一个小得多的团队构建的，你会想，“嗯，实际上有创新的机会。”作为一名产品人员，每当你看到成熟事物的创新时，我认为这都是令人着迷的。
And I was just blown away at how they created something that's better than something I hold as a true set.
我对他们如何创造出比我所拥有的真实套装更好的东西感到震惊。
Lenny: Yeah.
莱尼：是的。
We had Josh on the podcast, we talked about a lot of their philosophies.
我们的播客中有乔什，我们谈论了他们的很多哲学。
And on the tab thing, I think the key there is it closes your tabs after 24 hours unless you put them in a specific place, which I love because I was like, you think you would do that, but you don't.
关于标签的事情，我认为关键是它会在 24 小时后关闭你的标签，除非你把它们放在一个特定的地方，我喜欢这一点，因为我当时想，你认为你会这样做，但你没有。
And then it's broke so beautiful, you wake up in the morning, everything's gone, but you can save stuff that you want.
然后它就崩溃了，如此美丽，你早上醒来，一切都消失了，但你可以保存你想要的东西。
The other thing I'll mention with Arc, by the way, also huge fan, that's all I use, and I'm not an investor, just a fan, is the onboarding experience is the best onboarding experience I've seen.
顺便说一句，我要提到的关于 Arc 的另一件事，也是我的超级粉丝，这就是我所使用的一切，我不是投资者，只是一个粉丝，入职体验是我见过的最好的入职体验。
I was just like, I did it and I got a tweet about this.
我当时想，我做到了，我收到了一条关于此事的推文。
This is so good.
这太好了。
And actually, if you go to that episode, there's a link to get past the wait list and just-
事实上，如果你去看那一集，有一个链接可以跳过等待名单，然后-
Lenny: Yeah.
莱尼：是的。
You gave me many thousands of invites.
你给了我成千上万的邀请。
Okay, keep going.
好吧，继续。
What is something relatively minor you've changed in the way you develop products and your team that's had a big impact on the team's ability to execute?
您在开发产品和团队的方式上进行了哪些相对较小的改变，但对团队的执行能力产生了重大影响？
Nikhyl Singhal: A little bit of this is just because of scale, but oftentimes we think a lot about the products and the features and the decisions that we're working on, and then we think that meetings are a nuisance or a must-have necessary evil to be able to deliver.
Nikhyl Singhal：这在一定程度上只是因为规模，但我们经常会思考很多产品、功能以及我们正在制定的决策，然后我们认为会议是一种麻烦，或者是必须要实现的邪恶。
Sometimes I realize that at a scaled organization, the meeting operating system is as important as the products that we're building because it sort of speaks to how we scale and how we ensure we have the right degree of delegation, the right conversations, and then the right acceleration on the right decisions.
有时我意识到，在一个规模化的组织中，会议操作系统与我们正在构建的产品一样重要，因为它在某种程度上说明了我们如何扩展以及如何确保我们拥有适当程度的授权、正确的对话，然后正确加速做出正确的决策。
Nikhyl Singhal: So what's interesting is every quarter, in my current teams, even in my past teams, I talk about our meetings like a product.
Nikhyl Singhal：所以有趣的是，每个季度，在我现在的团队中，甚至在我过去的团队中，我都会像谈论产品一样谈论我们的会议。
We're on version seven in my team, and so we're like, "Hey, version seven, every 90 days, these are the meetings, these are the discussions, this is how we organize, these are the attendees, and then here's how we make decisions.
我们的团队正在使用第七版，所以我们会说，“嘿，第七版，每 90 天一次，这些是会议，这些是讨论，这就是我们的组织方式，这些是与会者，然后这就是我们如何做出决策。
This is the cadence of the week.
这是本周的节奏。
This is when people can work from home, hybrid, whatever it might be." And then I take feedback two months in and then every three months we make another route.
这是人们可以在家工作、混合工作、无论什么方式工作的时候。”然后我会在两个月内收集反馈，然后每三个月我们就会制定另一条路线。
Nikhyl Singhal: What it finds is that people then can plan and they can make meeting time effective.
Nikhyl Singhal：研究发现，人们可以进行计划，并且可以使会议时间变得有效。
And meeting time is such precious time.
而见面的时间又是多么宝贵的时间啊。
It's the most expensive time in a company.
这是公司最贵的时候。
So when I was in a startup, I couldn't imagine doing this, but now this is like my bread and butter as a leader.
所以当我在一家初创公司时，我无法想象这样做，但现在这就像我作为领导者的面包和黄油。
It's the process part.
这是流程部分。
And frankly, for new folks that are new in leadership positions in a new company, it's the one thing you can do when you have low context.
坦率地说，对于在新公司担任领导职务的新人来说，这是在背景较低时可以做的一件事。
When you don't know how the product works, you can look at things with fresh eyes and see inefficiencies when everyone that's been in the system can't see it.
当你不知道产品如何工作时，你可以用新的眼光来看待事物，并在系统中的每个人都看不到它的情况下看到效率低下的地方。
I'm a huge fan of rebooting meetings first.
我非常喜欢首先重新启动会议。
So process first, then people, then product, then strategy is sort of the notion I make, and this is this first thing I always do.
因此，首先是流程，然后是人员，然后是产品，然后是战略，这是我提出的概念，这是我总是做的第一件事。
Lenny: Final question, what is one thing every PM listening should do to help their career?
Lenny：最后一个问题，每个倾听 PM 应该做的一件事对他们的职业生涯有帮助吗？
Nikhyl Singhal: Ensure that the story you will tell about the work you're doing today is meaningful for your skip job.
Nikhyl Singhal：确保您讲述的有关您今天正在做的工作的故事对您的跳级工作有意义。
So if you sit down and you write down, "In six months, in 12 months, in 24 months, when I achieve or finish this role, here's the paragraph I'll write.
因此，如果你坐下来写下来，“在六个月内、在 12 个月内、在 24 个月内，当我实现或完成这个角色时，这就是我要写的段落。
Here's a problem I solved.
这是我解决的一个问题。
Here's the skill I built.
这是我建立的技能。
Here's the headwind I faced.
这是我面临的逆风。
Here's what I did to overcome it." Use I in the sentence, do not use we.
这就是我为克服它所做的事情。”在句子中使用 I，不要使用 we。
We will do good things.
我们会做好事。
You are who we are thinking about, your career.
您就是我们正在考虑的人，您的职业。
We're not looking for we.
我们不是在寻找我们。
Master the story now.
现在掌握故事。
Understand the story.
了解故事。
If the story sucks, you probably should be thinking through how to make the story not suck.
如果故事很糟糕，你可能应该考虑如何让故事不那么糟糕。
But that to me is a very good career decision and I think everyone is building their story today.
但这对我来说是一个非常好的职业决定，我认为今天每个人都在构建自己的故事。
I want to know that story.
我想知道那个故事。
I want that story to be incredibly compelling because whether you promote it or not, that story's compelling.
我希望这个故事非常引人注目，因为无论你是否宣传它，这个故事都很引人注目。
You'll be promoted in career.
你将在职业生涯中得到提升。
And that's what we're here for.
这就是我们来这里的目的。
Lenny: Nikhyl, this is the first time we've ever met.
莱尼：尼基尔，这是我们第一次见面。
I'm such a fan instantly.
我立刻就成为了粉丝。
This might be my new favorite episode.
这可能是我最喜欢的新剧集。
I'm so excited for people to listen to this.
我很高兴人们能听到这个。
There's so much value here.
这里有很多价值。
Two final questions before we wrap up.
结束之前还有两个最后问题。
Where can folks find you online if they want to learn more?
如果人们想了解更多信息，可以在哪里找到您？
And also, talk about maybe various community, The Skip, and all that stuff that people can check out.
此外，还可以谈论各种社区、The Skip 以及人们可以查看的所有内容。
And then how can listeners be useful to you?
那么听众如何对你有用呢？
Nikhyl Singhal: I'm building this brand around The Skip because I'm so passionate.
Nikhyl Singhal：我围绕 The Skip 打造这个品牌，因为我充满热情。
There's two outlets that people can easily connect.
人们可以轻松连接两个插座。
One is the podcast, which much like yourselves is available on Apple and Spotify and others.
一种是播客，就像你们自己一样，可以在 Apple 和 Spotify 等网站上使用。
So I'd love for people to join my podcast and hear.
所以我希望人们加入我的播客并收听。
What I'm now moving my podcast to is almost like coaching calls.
我现在将播客转移到几乎就像教练电话一样。
Because I have so many of them, I'm saying like, "Hey, 30 minutes, let me walk you through a problem and hear how I'm thinking about it, whether that's a transition discussion or compensation discussion, et cetera." And then the other one is this sort of newsletter that I have on Substack, which is a bit of a mirror of the podcast.
因为我有很多这样的问题，所以我会说，“嘿，30 分钟，让我带你解决一个问题，听听我是如何思考这个问题的，无论是过渡讨论还是薪酬讨论，等等。”另一篇是我在 Substack 上发布的此类时事通讯，它有点像播客的镜像。
It's different forms of the same topic areas.
它是同一主题领域的不同形式。
So, would love for your listeners to connect with that.
因此，希望您的听众能够对此有所了解。
Nikhyl Singhal: I think as far as getting in touch with me, LinkedIn is where I spend most of my time professionally.
Nikhyl Singhal：我认为就与我的联系而言，LinkedIn 是我大部分时间都花在职业上的地方。
So between Twitter and LinkedIn, my presence is relatively easy to find.
因此，在 Twitter 和 LinkedIn 之间，我的存在相对容易找到。
And then how listeners can help me, I mean, one, you can build the most fulfilling career story and be your best, but also give back and pull others forward.
然后听众如何帮助我，我的意思是，第一，你可以打造最充实的职业故事，做到最好，同时也回馈他人并推动他人前进。
Whether that's through your act three or whether that's just helping others, I mean, I think that would be the most fulfilling to me.
无论是通过第三幕还是只是帮助别人，我的意思是，我认为这对我来说是最有成就感的。
I think feedback from your listeners to me on things they wish I would spend time talking about is incredibly empowering for my content because then I can deliver more meaningful content.
我认为听众对我希望我花时间谈论的事情的反馈对我的内容具有难以置信的力量，因为这样我就可以提供更有意义的内容。
It's very different from yours, but I think it's all around the arc of trying to help people gain forward and be more effective tech professionals.
这与您的非常不同，但我认为这一切都是为了帮助人们取得进步并成为更高效的技术专业人士。
So I would love to hear from your listeners.
所以我很想听听听众的意见。
Lenny: Just to make sure people know where to go to do this.
莱尼：只是为了确保人们知道去哪里做这件事。
For feedback, do you recommend LinkedIn?
如需反馈，您推荐 LinkedIn 吗？
Nikhyl Singhal: Yeah, LinkedIn is the ideal, but you can also find me on Twitter if you are just trying to add a quick...
Nikhyl Singhal：是的，LinkedIn 是理想的选择，但如果您只是想快速添加...，您也可以在 Twitter 上找到我。
If you're trying to follow me, follow me on LinkedIn.
如果您想关注我，请在 LinkedIn 上关注我。
If you're looking for feedback, just tweet me.
如果您正在寻找反馈，请发推文给我。
Lenny: And then for The Skip newsletter, what is the URL to go check that out?
Lenny：那么 The Skip 时事通讯的 URL 是什么？
Lenny: Amazing.
莱尼：太棒了。
And you don't publish often, but each issue is incredibly valuable, so we'll definitely link to that all in the show notes.
而且您不经常发布，但每一期都非常有价值，因此我们肯定会在展会笔记中链接到所有内容。
Nikhyl, thank you again so much for being here.
尼克尔，再次非常感谢你来到这里。
I will let you go now.
我现在就放你走。
This was amazing.
这太棒了。
Nikhyl Singhal: Yeah, thank you, Lenny.
尼克尔·辛格哈尔：是的，谢谢你，莱尼。
Appreciate it.
欣赏它。
Lenny: Thank you so much for listening.
莱尼：非常感谢您的聆听。
If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.
如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。
Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.
另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。
You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.
您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。
See you in the next episode.
下一集见。