Nickey Skarstad (Airbnb, Etsy, Shopify, Duolingo) on translating vision into goals, operationalizing product quality, second-order decisions, brainstorming, influence, and much more

Lenny: When I asked in my newsletter Slack community who I should have on the podcast who's a bit under the radar, but amazing, Nickey Skarstad was the first name that I heard.

Lenny：当我在时事通讯 Slack 社区中询问我应该在播客上邀请谁，虽然有点低调，但令人惊叹，Nickey Skarstad 是我听到的第一个名字。

And I was not surprised.

我并不感到惊讶。

I actually overlapped with Nickey at Airbnb, where she had a legendary reputation as a PM who everyone loved, but got shit done.

事实上，我在 Airbnb 与 Nickey 重叠，她在 Airbnb 享有传奇般的声誉，是人人喜爱的产品经理，但她却做了很多糟糕的事情。

Before Airbnb, Nickey worked at Etsy for over seven years where she went from being a forum moderator to director of product management.

在加入 Airbnb 之前，Nickey 在 Etsy 工作了七年多，从论坛版主晋升为产品管理总监。

Then she went on to work at Airbnb for a couple years.

然后她继续在 Airbnb 工作了几年。

Lenny: After leaving, she went on to be VP product at The Wing, and is currently a director of product management at Duolingo.

Lenny：离开后，她继续担任 The Wing 的产品副总裁，目前担任 Duolingo 的产品管理总监。

In our conversation, we cover how to set vision, translate that into goals, and then how to execute on it, making your strategy actionable, and keeping your teams aligned and focused, designing your product review sessions, how to maintain product quality, and what skills have most contributed to her success in her career.

在我们的对话中，我们讨论了如何设定愿景，将其转化为目标，然后如何执行它，使您的战略具有可操作性，并使您的团队保持一致和专注，设计产品审查会议，如何保持产品质量，以及哪些技能对她职业生涯的成功贡献最大。

I hope that you enjoy this conversation with Nickey Skarstad.

我希望您喜欢与 Nickey Skarstad 的这次对话。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Mixpanel, offering powerful self-serve product analytics.

Lenny：本集由 Mixpanel 为您带来，提供强大的自助产品分析。

Something we talk a lot about on the show is how startups can build successful and amazing products.

我们在节目中经常谈论的是初创公司如何打造成功且令人惊叹的产品。

And relying on gut feeling is a really expensive way to find out if you're heading in the right direction, especially when you're raising money.

依靠直觉来判断自己是否朝着正确的方向前进是一种非常昂贵的方法，尤其是当你筹集资金时。

Because VCs don't want to pay the price for these kinds of mistakes.

因为风险投资家不想为此类错误付出代价。

That's why Mixpanel will give you $50,000 in credits when you join their startup program.

这就是为什么当您加入 Mixpanel 的启动计划时，Mixpanel 将为您提供 50,000 美元的积分。

With Mixpanel, startups find product market fit faster, helping you take your company from minimal viable product to the next unicorn.

借助 Mixpanel，初创公司可以更快地找到适合市场的产品，帮助您将公司从最小可行产品转变为下一个独角兽。

Access realtime insights with the help of their pre-built templates, and know that at every stage Mixpanel is helping you build with confidence and curiosity for free.

借助预构建模板获取实时见解，并了解 Mixpanel 在每个阶段都在帮助您充满自信和好奇心地免费构建。

Apply for the startup program today to claim you're $50,000 in credits at mixpanel.com/startups, with an S.

立即在 mixpanel.com/startups 上申请启动计划，即可获得 50,000 美元的积分，并带有 S。

And even if you're not a startup, Mixpanel has pricing plans for teams of every size.

即使您不是初创公司，Mixpanel 也为各种规模的团队提供了定价计划。

Grow your business like you've always imagined with Mixpanel.

使用 Mixpanel 像您一直想象的那样发展您的业务。

Lenny: So many product managers are basically treated like project managers.

Lenny：很多产品经理基本上都被当作项目经理对待。

They get hired thinking they'll be deep in product strategy, vision, and getting to know their customers, only to wind up organizing other people's work and refining backlogs and organizing tiny, tiny features.

他们被录用时认为自己会深入了解产品策略、愿景并了解客户，结果却是组织其他人的工作、完善积压的工作、组织微小的功能。

If that sounds familiar, you need Dovetail.

如果这听起来很熟悉，那么您需要 Dovetail。

Because Dovetail gets that the true heart of product management is understanding what customers want, why they want it, and how to give it to them.

因为 Dovetail 知道产品管理的真正核心是了解客户想要什么、为什么想要它以及如何将其提供给他们。

That's why Dovetail builds a suite of user research products that help you get to the core of what your customers really want and why they want it.

这就是为什么 Dovetail 构建了一套用户研究产品，帮助您了解客户真正想要什么以及他们想要它的原因。

Lenny: Dovetail offers powerful analysis tools to help you identify themes, patterns, and insights in your customer interviews, allowing you to make better data informed decisions about what solutions you should build next.

Lenny：Dovetail 提供强大的分析工具，帮助您识别客户访谈中的主题、模式和见解，使您能够就下一步应该构建什么解决方案做出更好的数据明智决策。

Organizations the world over like Atlassian, Canva, DataDoc, GitLab, Nielsen Norman Group, Sketch, Deloitte, all use Dovetail to get a better understanding of their customers and build better products.

Atlassian、Canva、DataDoc、GitLab、Nielsen Norman Group、Sketch、Deloitte 等世界各地的组织都使用 Dovetail 来更好地了解客户并打造更好的产品。

Try Dovetail's products for free for as long as you need.

只要您需要，就可以免费试用 Dovetail 的产品。

You can sign up and dive straight in at dovetailapp.com/lenny.

您可以在 dovetailapp.com/lenny 注册并直接参与。

Nickey, thank you so much for joining me today.

尼基，非常感谢你今天加入我的行列。

I am really excited for our chat and to get to learn from you.

我很高兴能与您聊天并向您学习。

So welcome.

非常欢迎。

Nickey Skarstad: Thank you.

尼基·斯卡斯塔：谢谢。

Thanks for having me.

谢谢你有我。

Lenny: My pleasure.

莱尼：我的荣幸。

Today, you are director of product at Duolingo, which is an awesome product, and something that I used to use.

今天，您是 Duolingo 的产品总监，这是一个非常棒的产品，也是我曾经使用过的产品。

I'm not learning a language currently, but I know where to go if I were to.

我目前没有学习语言，但我知道如果我想学的话该去哪里。

Can you just talk about how you got into product, and then a bit about just your journey from that point to where you are today?

您能谈谈您是如何进入产品领域的，然后谈谈您从那时到今天的历程吗？

Nickey Skarstad: Yeah, so it's been a long, meandering journey, which is fun.

Nickey Skarstad：是的，这是一段漫长而曲折的旅程，这很有趣。

And so I've been in technology roles now for 12 years.

到现在为止，我担任技术职务已有 12 年了。

I've been in PM roles, actually product roles, for 10.

我担任 PM 职位（实际上是产品职位）已经有 10 年了。

I'm starting to be the person with experience in the room, which is really fun and kind of daunting at times.

我开始成为房间里有经验的人，这真的很有趣，有时也有点令人畏惧。

But how I got my first role in product was I was at Etsy in 2010 is when I joined.

但我在 2010 年加入 Etsy 时才获得了第一份产品职位。

And I joined them, I'd say it was post-product market fit, but before they truly started to really grow and scale.

我加入了他们，我想说这是产品后市场的契合，但在他们真正开始真正增长和规模化之前。

And I actually joined them on their community team.

我实际上加入了他们的社区团队。

So I worked as a forums moderator, and then as a seller education specialist.

所以我先担任论坛版主，然后担任卖家教育专家。

Yeah.

是的。

Spent a couple years doing that.

花了几年时间这样做。

And then through that process became sort of one of the internal voices that had a really good understanding of how their customer, one of their core customers, their sellers, were actually using their product.

然后通过这个过程，成为一种内部声音，可以很好地了解他们的客户、他们的核心客户之一、他们的卖家实际上是如何使用他们的产品的。

Nickey Skarstad: And the VP product at the time, his name's Mark Headland.

Nickey Skarstad：当时的产品副总裁，他的名字叫 Mark Headland。

Hey Mark, if you're listening.

嘿，马克，如果你在听的话。

Was like, "Hey, Nickey, you're in all these product meetings.

就像，“嘿，尼基，你参加了所有这些产品会议。

Have you thought about being a product manager?" And at the time I was like, "Oh God, no. Never." I was like, "No. Technology what?

你有没有想过当产品经理？”当时我想，“天啊，不。从来没有。”我当时想，“不。技术是什么？

Engineering?

工程？

I'd have to work with engineers?

我必须和工程师一起工作吗？

I know nothing about engineering." And so I was very imposter syndrome-y about it.

我对工程学一无所知。”所以我对此非常有冒名顶替综合症。

And he gave me a little nudge, and was like, "I think you'd be really good at it."

他轻轻推了我一下，说道：“我认为你真的很擅长。”

Nickey Skarstad: And so I tried it.

Nickey Skarstad：所以我尝试了。

And I started as an APM.

我最初担任 APM。

And I was at Etsy for around, I think, it was seven years total, and spent the majority of time actually in PM product roles.

我在 Etsy 工作了大约七年，我想，大部分时间实际上都在担任 PM 产品角色。

So I left as a director of product.

所以我离开了产品总监的职位。

And for most of my time there, I worked on the seller side.

我在那里的大部分时间都在卖方工作。

So it was all seller tooling, working with sellers to figure out how they could grow and scale their businesses.

因此，这都是卖家工具，与卖家合作找出如何发展和扩大业务的方法。

And it was an awesome, wild ride.

这是一次很棒、狂野的旅程。

But that was my first role in product.

但这是我在产品中的第一个角色。

And then I went on after that into several other product roles as well.

之后我还担任了其他几个产品角色。

Lenny: Yeah, let's get into it.

莱尼：是的，让我们开始吧。

Where'd you go next?

接下来你去哪里？

Nickey Skarstad: So after seven years at Etsy, I was kind of getting the itch to try something new.

Nickey Skarstad：在 Etsy 工作了七年之后，我有点渴望尝试新的东西。

When I took a step back and was like, all right, what do I want to do next?

当我后退一步时，我想，好吧，下一步我想做什么？

I really loved the marketplace component at Etsy.

我真的很喜欢 Etsy 的市场组件。

And I don't know if this is just says something about my personality, or actually probably your personality too, is marketplace product is really hard, right?

我不知道这是否只是说明了我的个性，或者实际上也可能说明了您的个性，市场产品真的很难，对吗？

You have this constant balancing of both buyer and seller sides or both sides of the marketplace.

您可以不断平衡买方和卖方或市场的双方。

And I really liked that.

我真的很喜欢这样。

And it was something that I was good at.

这是我擅长的事情。

Nickey Skarstad: And so I was like, all right, where else could I go that's interesting or having a moment?

Nickey Skarstad：所以我想，好吧，我还能去哪里有趣或有时间呢？

And I was like, Airbnb.

我当时想，Airbnb。

Has to be Airbnb.

必须是爱彼迎。

I was a huge fan of their product.

我是他们产品的超级粉丝。

They were also post-product market fit.

它们也适合产品后市场。

But sniffed around, ended up basically getting an opportunity to join the experiences team.

但四处打听，最终基本上得到了加入体验团队的机会。

And I joined that team when the product had just launched.

产品刚刚推出时我就加入了这个团队。

So they had done sort of their early thinking, the existential thinking.

所以他们已经做了一些早期的思考，存在主义的思考。

Had a brand new product in market, and then I joined the team.

市场上有一个全新的产品，然后我加入了团队。

Nickey Skarstad: And so I was the first boots on the ground product manager, and really helped that team figure out how do we get product market fit?

Nickey Skarstad：所以我是第一位实地产品经理，并真正帮助该团队弄清楚如何使产品适合市场？

And then how do we start to think about how to scale it, which was, you can imagine, experiences is interesting because it is a very nuanced product in that, and this is similar to Airbnb if you work on homes as well, but part of it is building the digital experience that someone will interact with when they're booking an Airbnb experience.

然后我们如何开始考虑如何扩展它，你可以想象，体验很有趣，因为它是一个非常微妙的产品，如果你也从事家居工作，这与 Airbnb 类似，但其中一部分是建立人们在预订 Airbnb 体验时与之互动的数字体验。

And the other part is actually influencing the live event experience that you will experience when you actually join an event or an experience.

另一部分实际上是影响您实际参加活动或体验时将体验到的现场活动体验。

Nickey Skarstad: And I think that layer of abstraction for me was really fascinating, and something I've learned a ton about is it's not just influencing the digital product, but it's actually the consumer experience when their boots around the ground.

Nickey Skarstad：我认为抽象层对我来说非常令人着迷，我学到了很多东西，它不仅影响数字产品，而且实际上影响消费者在地面上的体验。

And that is another layer of complexity.

这是另一层复杂性。

And so that was super fun.

这非常有趣。

I was there for about, I think, a little over two and a half years.

我想，我在那里呆了大约两年半多一点。

Started as a PM.

从一名 PM 开始。

I think I got promoted a couple times.

我想我升职了几次。

Left as senior product lead, I believe was my title.

我相信我的头衔是担任高级产品主管。

And forever grateful for that experience because I learned a ton about product market fit and also product quality.

我永远感激这段经历，因为我学到了很多关于产品市场契合度和产品质量的知识。

Lenny: Is there anything else you took away from that experience?

莱尼：从那次经历中你还有什么收获吗？

Because I was at Airbnb at the same time.

因为我同时也在 Airbnb。

We never really got to work together.

我们从来没有真正合作过。

But I just heard amazing things about you on the experiences team.

但我刚刚在体验团队中听到了关于你的惊人事情。

And experiences was a wild ride, from what I understand.

据我了解，经历是一次疯狂的旅程。

Is there anything that you took away from that experience that kind of has stuck with you as a PM?

作为一名产品经理，您从这次经历中学到的东西有没有让您印象深刻的？

Nickey Skarstad: Yeah.

尼基·斯卡斯塔：是的。

So part of it is more of just the way Airbnb works is something that I think I use every day in my job, which is just truly thinking about product quality and the end consumer experience.

因此，部分原因更多是 Airbnb 的工作方式，我想我每天都会在工作中使用这种方式，即真正考虑产品质量和最终消费者体验。

And Airbnb does not ship product if it is not good.

如果产品不好，Airbnb 不会发货。

And even if they're trying new things, they are obsessed with the end consumer experience.

即使他们正在尝试新事物，他们也会痴迷于最终消费者体验。

And I learned so much from that line of thinking because just, if it shipped, it was really high quality.

我从这种思路中学到了很多东西，因为如果它发货了，它的质量确实很高。

All the edge cases had been thought through.

所有的边缘情况都经过深思熟虑。

And the experience I had before that was definitely we were shipping things more quickly, things weren't always perfect.

我之前的经验肯定是我们运送东西的速度更快，但事情并不总是完美的。

And it's not to say that everything Airbnb ships is perfect, but I think that obsession with the end consumer experience really influences the quality of their product suite and is something I try to bring to my job today because no one does it better, in my personal opinion.

这并不是说 Airbnb 推出的所有产品都是完美的，但我认为对最终消费者体验的痴迷确实影响了他们产品套件的质量，这也是我今天试图在工作中体现的东西，因为在我个人看来，没有人做得更好。

Lenny: I'd love to unpack that a little bit.

莱尼：我很想稍微解释一下。

There's kind of two questions in my mind.

我脑子里有两个问题。

Is there an example of that at Airbnb where it's just like, okay, here's how they keep quality so high?

Airbnb 有没有这样的例子，他们会说，好吧，这就是他们如何保持如此高的质量？

And then do you have any advice for just how to do that as a company?

那么对于公司如何做到这一点，您有什么建议吗？

Nickey Skarstad: Yeah.

尼基·斯卡斯塔：是的。

So I don't think that's easy for sure.

所以我认为这肯定不容易。

One of the things Airbnb did for experiences is we had this balancing metric, which was basically using the review rate as sort our end all, be all top line goal.

Airbnb 在体验方面所做的事情之一是我们有这个平衡指标，它基本上是使用评论率来排序我们的最终目标，即所有的首要目标。

So you can imagine a business like that.

所以你可以想象这样的生意。

Obviously we needed to have revenue kind of moving through the platform, and we cared about high level bookings.

显然，我们需要通过平台获得收入，并且我们关心高水平的预订。

But really at the end of the day in the beginning, we were obsessed with making sure every person who booked actually had a good experience when they showed up to experiences.

但实际上，从一开始，我们就致力于确保每个预订的人在体验时都能获得良好的体验。

Nickey Skarstad: And so especially if you are building early product, really thinking about how can you pick some good quality metrics that might actually balance or conflate with growth metrics, and use that as sort of your north star because it really helped the whole team to understand what they were actually trying to do at the end of the day.

Nickey Skarstad：特别是如果你正在构建早期产品，真正考虑如何选择一些可能实际上与增长指标相平衡或合并的良好质量指标，并将其用作你的北极星，因为它确实帮助整个团队了解他们在一天结束时实际上想要做什么。

Growth was important, sure.

当然，增长很重要。

Obviously we needed to grow for a lot of reasons.

显然，出于很多原因，我们需要成长。

But the most important thing was that the actual customer experience was great.

但最重要的是实际的客户体验非常棒。

And I know Airbnb does that in other places too, but that really was experience's top line goal was our review rate and quality and it trickled down for sure.

我知道爱彼迎在其他地方也这样做，但这确实是体验的首要目标，那就是我们的评论率和质量，而且它肯定会逐渐下降。

Lenny: How did they operationalize that?

莱尼：他们是如何实施的？

Because it sounds great.

因为听起来很棒。

Cool, let's make sure everything, all the reviews are five star.

酷，让我们确保一切，所有评论都是五星级。

How do you build that into the way the team operates and tracks their success?

您如何将其融入团队运作和跟踪成功的方式中？

Nickey Skarstad: Yeah.

尼基·斯卡斯塔：是的。

So a big part of that was actually operational, which was just making sure that hosts who weren't meeting those specific rigorous standards.

因此，其中很大一部分实际上是可操作的，这只是确保不符合这些特定严格标准的房东。

There was a lot of coaching and education that was happening.

正在进行大量的指导和教育。

Some of that was in the product and some of it wasn't.

其中一些包含在产品中，有些则不在产品中。

It was something that was discussed at all of the meetings that we had across everyone's teams, right?

这是我们在每个团队的所有会议上都讨论过的事情，对吗？

Everyone understood that it was important.

每个人都明白这很重要。

And so I think that really impacted both the ops team as well as the product team who are literally building the product that would bring that to life.

因此，我认为这确实影响了运营团队和产品团队，他们正在构建能够实现这一目标的产品。

And I think just thinking from, especially if you're a founder and you're thinking about building your sort of early metrics, there's a lot of ways to really make sure your team really understands what that means.

我认为只要思考一下，特别是如果你是一名创始人并且你正在考虑建立你的早期指标，有很多方法可以真正确保你的团队真正理解这意味着什么。

Nickey Skarstad: Another thing we did a lot on the experiences team is we just dogfooded all the time.

Nickey Skarstad：我们在体验团队中做了很多事情的另一件事是我们一直在进行测试。

And so we were lucky in that it's a really fun product to dogfood.

所以我们很幸运，因为它是一个非常有趣的狗粮产品。

We were taking experiences all over the world all the time.

我们一直在世界各地汲取经验。

But it really helped because you would know right away when you showed up to an event, if you were going to have a five star experience or if it was not going to be great.

但这确实很有帮助，因为当您参加某个活动时，您会立即知道您是否会获得五星级的体验，或者是否会很糟糕。

I mean that really helped us too because then we would go back to the teams and be like, "All right, we were just in San Francisco.

我的意思是，这也确实对我们有帮助，因为然后我们会回到团队并说，“好吧，我们只是在旧金山。

We were on an experience last night, and it did not go well.

昨晚我们进行了一次体验，但进展并不顺利。

What do we do about it?" So there's lots of ways to do it.

我们该怎么办？”所以有很多方法可以做到。

But dogfooding is a good one.

但狗食是一件好事。

Lenny: I know Brian is infamous for texting the team anytime anything isn't working right in the product.

Lenny：我知道 Brian 因产品出现问题时向团队发短信而臭名昭著。

And I know he was very intimately involved in experiences.

我知道他非常密切地参与体验。

Is that something you've learned to do just to kind of like, "Hey team, I found a big problem.

这是你学会做的事情，就像“嘿团队，我发现了一个大问题。

Let's fix it." Or do you try to avoid that and not create that stress?

我们来解决它吧。”或者你会努力避免这种情况而不产生压力吗？

Nickey Skarstad: I mean I think sometimes that can be a healthy stress if you do it in the right way.

Nickey Skarstad：我的意思是，如果你以正确的方式做的话，有时这可能是一种健康的压力。

The nice thing I think is just making autonomous teams that feel like it is their goal to bring that quality experience to life can help you avoid some of that.

我认为好的一点是，让自治团队感觉自己的目标是为生活带来优质体验，这可以帮助您避免其中的一些情况。

But I do think that pushing teams to use the product so they firsthand experience when it is not great is a really good way to give teams sort of the motivation to act on fixing things like that.

但我确实认为，推动团队使用该产品，以便他们在产品效果不佳时获得第一手经验，是一种非常好的方法，可以让团队有动力采取行动解决此类问题。

But I don't know that I text people, but I'm on Slack all the time.

但我不知道我给别人发短信，但我一直在使用 Slack。

So if anything, I'm going to Slack you.

所以，如果有什么事情的话，我就让你放松一下。

Lenny: Great.

莱尼：太好了。

Okay.

好的。

Maybe one more question on this topic because it's so interesting.

也许关于这个主题还有一个问题，因为它很有趣。

So on experiences you measured, I imagine, percentage of trips that were five star.

因此，根据您测量的体验，我想，五星级旅行的百分比。

Are there other quality metrics that you've used at other companies that you found helpful for keeping track of product quality and maintaining product quality?

您是否发现其他公司使用过的其他质量指标有助于跟踪产品质量和维护产品质量？

Nickey Skarstad: Yeah.

尼基·斯卡斯塔：是的。

So another one that we used at Etsy, which was an interesting one, is we realized that, so one of the pieces of product that I owned was the onboarding flow.

我们在 Etsy 使用的另一个非常有趣的产品是我们意识到这一点，所以我拥有的产品之一就是入职流程。

So it was onboarding new sellers specifically.

因此，它专门针对新卖家进行入职培训。

And you can imagine if you're owning that flow, you're just going to be like, all right, we just need a ton of sellers, and we need them to open their shops right away.

你可以想象，如果你拥有这种流量，你就会说，好吧，我们只需要大量的卖家，我们需要他们立即开设商店。

So we started and we went down that path.

所以我们开始并沿着这条路走下去。

And then we realized we actually tanked a couple of downstream metrics that we didn't really understand at first.

然后我们意识到我们实际上忽略了一些我们一开始并不真正理解的下游指标。

And those metrics were basically getting sellers to a first sale.

这些指标基本上是让卖家实现首次销售。

So we opened up a lot of shops, but they actually weren't successful when they were on the platform, and they weren't successful in a certain amount of time.

所以我们开了很多店，但其实他们在平台上的时候并不成功，在一定的时间内也没有成功。

Nickey Skarstad: So we did a lot of unpacking of what happened there, why did we do that, and actually does that matter?

Nickey Skarstad：所以我们对那里发生的事情进行了很多分析，为什么我们要这样做，这实际上很重要吗？

And the end answer was, yes, it matters greatly.

最终的答案是，是的，这非常重要。

When Etsy sellers are opening their shop, it's really important that you get them a sale right away because it's a huge motivator, right?

当 Etsy 卖家开店时，立即为他们提供销售非常重要，因为这是一个巨大的动力，对吧？

If you make a sale in your first day, you're like, "Oh wow.

如果你在第一天就完成了销售，你会说，“哇哦。

Okay, this is a thing.

好吧，这是一件事。

I could make money doing this.

我这样做可以赚钱。

This is exciting.

这很令人兴奋。

I get to ship something to my buyer." If it takes you seven days, you start to be like, "Oh no. I'm not good enough.

我可以向我的买家运送一些东西。”如果你需要 7 天，你就会开始说，“哦，不，我不够好。

I'm terrible at this." 10 days, into 30 days, it really impacts people.

我在这方面很糟糕。” 10天，到​​30天，它确实对人们产生了影响。

Nickey Skarstad: And so we actually put more friction in the onboarding flow to help to start to solve for that.

Nickey Skarstad：因此，我们实际上在入职流程中加入了更多摩擦，以帮助开始解决这个问题。

So we actually slowed you down.

所以我们实际上减慢了你的速度。

We made you be more thoughtful about what you were listing.

我们让您对所列出的内容更加深思熟虑。

And by doing that, we actually helped you get to a first sale faster.

通过这样做，我们实际上帮助您更快地实现首次销售。

And so that was another good example of a quality metric that we used, which was, I think it was first sale in seven days.

这是我们使用的质量指标的另一个很好的例子，我认为这是 7 天内的首次销售。

I might be wrong.

我可能错了。

But something along those lines.

但沿着这些思路。

And it actually conflated with the high level growth metrics, but it was a huge quality predictor, and it was really important for long term seller success.

它实际上与高水平的增长指标相结合，但它是一个巨大的质量预测因素，对于卖家的长期成功非常重要。

Lenny: So interesting.

莱尼：太有趣了。

That's such a good topic.

这是一个很好的话题。

And I feel like we could explore that for an hour, but maybe for a little bit longer.

我觉得我们可以探索一个小时，但也许更长一点。

Was that metric the metric that you used to measure supply growth at that point?

该指标是您当时用来衡量供应增长的指标吗？

Or was it alongside just general growth?

或者只是与总体增长并存？

Nickey Skarstad: Yeah, it was alongside general growth.

Nickey Skarstad：是的，这是伴随着总体增长的。

It wasn't our top, top OKR.

这不是我们最顶级的 OKR。

But it mattered because, again, it's sort of like you think about these things a bit as a seesaw, right?

但这很重要，因为，这有点像你把这些事情看作是跷跷板，对吧？

We basically were balancing our growth with making sure people were successful.

我们基本上是在平衡我们的增长和确保人们的成功。

And the more equilibrium you had there, the better it was for their overarching marketplace.

那里的平衡越多，对他们的总体市场来说就越好。

And it's similar if you think about experiences too, right?

如果你也考虑一下经历的话，情况也是相似的，对吧？

Where, all right, you could just be growing, but people are having a terrible experience.

好吧，你可能只是在成长，但人们却经历了可怕的经历。

So how do you balance those two things?

那么你如何平衡这两件事呢？

And if you can get those two things in balance, you're going to cruise, and you're going to be more successful longer term.

如果你能平衡这两件事，你就会顺利前进，并且从长远来看你会更加成功。

Lenny: Got it.

莱尼：明白了。

At Airbnb when I was working on supply growth, our main goal for the supply growth team was similar.

当我在 Airbnb 从事供应增长工作时，我们供应增长团队的主要目标是相似的。

And that was actually the goal we had, which is new listings that got their first booking.

这实际上是我们的目标，即获得首次预订的新房源。

We only counted listings that had one booking as new supply.

我们只将有 1 次预订的房源计为新供应。

Everything else didn't really count.

其他一切都不算数。

Because we knew that if it got booked at least once, at least it's got some level of quality and people want that place, and it's valuable to the marketplace.

因为我们知道，如果它至少被预订一次，至少它有一定的质量，人们想要那个地方，而且它对市场很有价值。

Okay.

好的。

So you were at Airbnb, and where'd you go next?

那么您在 Airbnb 工作过，接下来您会去哪里？

Nickey Skarstad: Yeah.

尼基·斯卡斯塔：是的。

So I went to a startup.

所以我去了一家初创公司。

And for lack of a better way to describe this, they were basically kind of building a marketplace as well, but it was more of a marketplace of ideas.

由于缺乏更好的方式来描述这一点，他们基本上也在建立一个市场，但它更像是一个思想市场。

And I hate when people say that, because I think it's cheesy, but it's true.

我讨厌人们这么说，因为我认为这很俗气，但这是事实。

They had physical co-working spaces, and they were trying to take some of the magic that was happening in their spaces.

他们有实体的联合办公空间，他们试图利用他们空间中发生的一些魔力。

So people meeting each other, networking, people getting funding for their startups, et cetera.

人们互相见面、建立联系、为自己的初创公司获得资金等等。

And they wanted to bring it online and they wanted to try to scale it so it wasn't constrained inside of their four walls.

他们想把它带到网上，并想尝试扩展它，这样它就不会被限制在他们的四堵墙内。

So I helped them basically come up with a longer term strategy, start to figure out how to unpack that, and get product market fit.

因此，我基本上帮助他们制定了长期战略，开始弄清楚如何解决这个问题，并让产品适应市场。

And then also just build a technology team around trying to solve that.

然后建立一个技术团队来尝试解决这个问题。

Nickey Skarstad: And so that started late 2019.

Nickey Skarstad：这一切是从 2019 年底开始的。

And then I was out for a bit, had a baby.

然后我出去了一段时间，生了孩子。

And came back and then COVID happened.

回来后，新冠疫情发生了。

And they were a physical co-working business.

他们是一家实体联合办公企业。

That was where their majority revenue came from.

这就是他们大部分收入的来源。

And so COVID was pretty horrible for what they were trying to do.

因此，对于他们想要做的事情来说，新冠病毒是非常可怕的。

They also had some other cultural issues, and so the whole thing kind of paused/fell over.

他们还存在其他一些文化问题，因此整个事情暂停/失败了。

So I actually spent a year hiring a team and then had to lay them off, which was a great lesson in leadership.

所以我实际上花了一年的时间招聘了一个团队，然后不得不解雇他们，这是领导力方面的一个很好的教训。

I'm not going to lie.

我不会撒谎。

I learned a lot about how to lead in that experience.

在那次经历中我学到了很多关于如何领导的知识。

Nickey Skarstad: But after that, and it was COVID, I had a eight month old, and so I spent time actually just vibing with my kids, which was kind of fun.

Nickey Skarstad：但在那之后，因为新冠疫情，我有了一个八个月大的孩子，所以我花了很多时间和我的孩子们一起交流，这很有趣。

And then ended up going to Shopify after that.

然后最终去了 Shopify。

And so I was looking for a more bigger scaled, not startup, and was trying to find something a little bit more something where I could be longer term and was more excited about, and took a platform role at Shopify.

因此，我一直在寻找规模更大的公司，而不是初创公司，并试图找到一些更能让我长远发展、更令我兴奋的东西，并在 Shopify 担任平台角色。

And so that was really interesting in that I had, honestly, for the most part spent the majority of my career in super consumer facing roles.

所以这真的很有趣，老实说，我职业生涯的大部分时间都花在了面向超级消费者的角色上。

And the role that I took was more platform.

我所扮演的角色更多的是平台。

Nickey Skarstad: And I realized that, honestly, pretty quickly after I took the role, I was like, oh, good to know.

Nickey Skarstad：老实说，在我接手这个角色后很快我就意识到，哦，很高兴知道。

I didn't really understand what this job was and now I know what it is, but it does not give me energy.

我以前不太明白这份工作是什么，现在我知道它是什么了，但它并没有给我能量。

And so I felt like I had a lot of red energy every day.

所以我感觉我每天都有很多红色的能量。

And so I made a call pretty quickly to bounce, which was actually another good learning experience.

所以我很快就打电话退回了，这实际上是另一个很好的学习经历。

I think I've gotten a lot.

我想我已经得到了很多。

As I've advanced through my career, have learned a lot about what gives me Nickey Skarstad energy and have been really prioritizing that, especially in a post-COVID world.

随着我职业生涯的不断进步，我了解到了尼基·斯卡斯塔德 (Nickey Skarstad) 的能量来源是什么，并且一直非常重视这一点，尤其是在后新冠疫情时代。

Nickey Skarstad: And so left Shopify, and made my way to Duolingo.

Nickey Skarstad：所以离开了 Shopify，转而去了 Duolingo。

And so Duolingo has been super fun.

所以 Duolingo 非常有趣。

I've been there since September of 2021.

我自 2021 年 9 月以来一直在那里。

And in the process of helping them kind of think through a zero to one product challenge, something that's newer.

在帮助他们思考零到一产品挑战的过程中，这是一些更新的东西。

Can't really talk about it unfortunately, but has been another sort of product market fit thinking exercise.

不幸的是，不能真正谈论它，但这是另一种产品市场契合思维练习。

It reminds me a little bit of some of the work that I did on experiences.

它让我想起了我在经验方面所做的一些工作。

And so it's been actually pretty challenging.

所以这实际上非常具有挑战性。

It's super fun.

超级有趣。

So I'm also having a great time here as well.

所以我在这里也玩得很开心。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

The companies you worked at is incredible and there's so much I want to explore there.

你工作过的公司非常棒，我想在那里探索很多东西。

Going back to Shopify briefly, a lot of PMs, I imagine, are trying to decide should they stay where they're at?

简单地回到 Shopify，我想很多 PM 都在尝试决定他们是否应该留在原地？

Should they go explore other places?

他们应该去探索其他地方吗？

So you said the thing that kind of pulled you out there was just the platform role didn't feel like a fit for you.

所以你说，让你退出的原因只是平台角色不适合你。

Do you have any advice for folks on just how to know if a role or a company isn't a fit for them?

您对人们如何知道某个职位或公司是否不适合他们有什么建议吗？

Nickey Skarstad: Yeah.

尼基·斯卡斯塔：是的。

So I think I really learned that while I was there, and also I want to make sure I actually had a great experience at Shopify and I think it is an awesome company.

所以我认为我在那里的时候确实学到了这一点，而且我想确保我在 Shopify 确实获得了很好的体验，我认为这是一家很棒的公司。

I would highly recommend people work there, especially if they like platform product work.

我强烈推荐人们在那里工作，特别是如果他们喜欢平台产品工作的话。

One of the things I did when I was like, I don't know if I love this is I actually went through my calendar and I changed the colors of all of the meetings on my calendar to red, yellow, and green after I had the meeting.

我做的一件事是，我不知道我是否喜欢这个，我实际上浏览了我的日历，并在会议结束后将日历上所有会议的颜色更改为红色、黄色和绿色。

And I looked.

我看了看。

And basically if it was yellow, I was like, okay.

基本上，如果它是黄色的，我会想，好吧。

It was a fine meeting.

这是一次很好的会议。

My energy was baseline.

我的精力处于基线水平。

If it was red, I was either bored or I was stressed, or I was not having a good time.

如果它是红色的，那么我要么很无聊，要么很有压力，要么我过得不开心。

And if it was green, it gave me energy and I felt excited and I wanted to keep working on that.

如果它是绿色的，它会给我能量，我会感到兴奋，我想继续努力。

Nickey Skarstad: And when I looked back at the last few weeks, it was almost all red and yellow.

Nickey Skarstad：当我回顾过去几周时，几乎都是红色和黄色。

And I was like, okay, this is really from an energy standpoint, I don't think I love this.

我当时想，好吧，这确实是从能源的角度来看，我不认为我喜欢这个。

And so I would say think about the work that you're doing and that lens.

所以我想说想想你正在做的工作和那个镜头。

Get really good at figuring out what are the things that you love most about being a product person, and how can you optimize your next role for those things that you love?

真正善于弄清楚作为产品人员你最喜欢的事情是什么，以及如何针对你喜欢的事情优化你的下一个角色？

Nickey Skarstad: We should talk a little bit more about this, but each company has a very different product org.

Nickey Skarstad：我们应该多谈谈这一点，但每个公司都有非常不同的产品组织。

And the day to day of your job as a product manager, depending on where you go in the product that you're building, is very different.

作为产品经理，你的日常工作是非常不同的，具体取决于你在所构建的产品中所处的位置。

And so really thinking through what that work looks like, what their process is, who your end consumer is, what will the actual work you be doing every day, what will that be?

因此，认真思考这项工作是什么样的，他们的流程是什么，你的最终消费者是谁，你每天要做的实际工作是什么，那会是什么？

And if you can get really clear on that, and then get clear on what gives you energy and what you love, it makes it a lot easier to figure out where you should go next.

如果你能真正清楚这一点，然后清楚什么能给你能量和你喜欢什么，就会更容易弄清楚你下一步应该去哪里。

Lenny: Wow.

莱尼：哇。

I love that tactic.

我喜欢这个策略。

I've never heard of that.

我从来没有听说过这个。

Just going back to the meetings that you have in measuring, just reflecting on how much energy that meeting gave you.

只需回到您进行衡量的会议，即可反思该会议给您带来了多少能量。

Great tip.

很棒的提示。

Thank you for sharing that.

感谢您分享这一点。

And I'll also double down on Shopify is an amazing place to work.

我还会加倍强调 Shopify 是一个很棒的工作场所。

Just to make that clear.

只是为了澄清这一点。

It's probably one of the few places I recommend PMs go try to work at.

这可能是我推荐 PM 尝试工作的少数几个地方之一。

Nickey Skarstad: Yeah.

尼基·斯卡斯塔：是的。

I think especially if you're newer in your PM career, they just have a really great organization.

我认为特别是如果你是 PM 职业生涯的新手，他们只是拥有一个非常出色的组织。

And I think it's a great place to learn how to PM.

我认为这是学习如何进行产品展示的好地方。

Also their product, it's a huge scaled product.

还有他们的产品，这是一个规模巨大的产品。

And so it's complicated to build in.

因此构建起来很复杂。

So I think it's a great place to really understand second order systems and systems thinking.

所以我认为这是真正理解二阶系统和系统思维的好地方。

And especially if that type of work gives you energy, I would recommend that people look for jobs there.

尤其是如果这类工作能给你带来能量，我会建议人们在那里找工作。

But again, get really good at what you love.

但话又说回来，真正擅长做你喜欢的事情。

And I think what I've realized longer term is I really like the zero to one early stage.

我认为从长远来看，我意识到我真的很喜欢从零到一的早期阶段。

How do we get product market fit?

我们如何让产品适应市场？

And how do we really think through the early experience?

我们如何真正思考早期的经历？

And Shopify is at a very different stage than that.

而 Shopify 正处于一个非常不同的阶段。

They're doing that in a couple places for sure, but that's not their day to day.

他们肯定在几个地方这样做，但这不是他们的日常工作。

And so that was interesting.

这很有趣。

Lenny: Yeah.

莱尼：是的。

That makes a lot of sense.

这很有意义。

Going back to what you just touched on, the idea of product org and structure and how different companies build product, there's kind of two ways to approach this and take whichever direction you want.

回到您刚才提到的产品组织和结构的概念以及不同公司如何构建产品，有两种方法可以解决这个问题并采取您想要的方向。

Which of the companies you've worked at did you enjoy most, and that's kind of stuck with you as a way you want to build product?

您最喜欢哪一家您曾工作过的公司，并且您一直坚持这种方式来构建产品？

Or just like, how would you approach building a product org in cross-functional teams versus not, and reporting lines, things like that?

或者就像，您将如何在跨职能团队中构建产品组织，而不是在跨职能团队中构建产品组织，以及报告线之类的事情？

What do you recommend there?

你在那里推荐什么？

Nickey Skarstad: Yeah.

尼基·斯卡斯塔：是的。

So I feel like you're asking me to pick a favorite child, which especially as a mother, that's hard to do.

所以我觉得你是在要求我挑选一个最喜欢的孩子，尤其是作为一个母亲，这很难做到。

But no, I don't know.

但不，我不知道。

I feel like I've learned things from a lot of these different places and it's hard to choose.

我觉得我从很多不同的地方学到了东西，很难选择。

I think some of my early work at Etsy was very formative, and it was where I learned how to be a product manager.

我认为我在 Etsy 的早期工作对我的成长非常有帮助，也是我学习如何成为一名产品经理的地方。

And so I feel very proud of that.

所以我对此感到非常自豪。

I also think Etsy was out there building in public.

我还认为 Etsy 正在公共场合进行建设。

I'm literally doing air quotes right now.

我现在正在做空气报价。

I know you can't see me.

我知道你看不到我。

Nickey Skarstad: But they were doing that because they had such a passionate, involved, engaged early community that they could not just ship things and have them land well if they did not involve their community early.

Nickey Skarstad：但他们这样做是因为他们有一个充满热情、积极参与的早期社区，如果他们不尽早让社区参与进来，他们就不能只是运送东西并让它们顺利落地。

So they were doing prototyping, beta testing, and basically getting people to try things and give feedback on things.

因此，他们正在进行原型设计、beta 测试，基本上是让人们尝试一些东西并提供反馈。

I honestly, I think before a lot of people were, and that was something at the time that was really interesting and has really stayed with me, it's how to work with community and how to build community around the product that you're building.

老实说，我认为在很多人之前，这是当时非常有趣并且一直困扰着我的事情，那就是如何与社区合作以及如何围绕您正在构建的产品建立社区。

Nickey Skarstad: Because at the end of the day, especially when it's early days, it really helps scale, get people to evangelize what you're building, help teach other people how to use it, things like that.

Nickey Skarstad：因为归根结底，尤其是在早期，它确实有助于扩大规模，让人们宣传你正在构建的东西，帮助教导其他人如何使用它，诸如此类。

And so I learned how to do that at Etsy.

所以我在 Etsy 学会了如何做到这一点。

And I think that was super formative.

我认为这非常有影响力。

And then also just Airbnb, what we talked about before, and just deeply baking in product quality and the end consumer experience into everything that you're building is also something I literally apply every day.

然后还有 Airbnb，我们之前谈到过，将产品质量和最终消费者体验深入融入到你正在构建的一切中，这也是我每天都在应用的内容。

So if I had to choose, it would be those two places, but I plan on continuing to learn.

所以如果我必须选择的话，我会选择那两个地方，但我打算继续学习。

Lenny: Interesting.

莱尼：有趣。

Both very community driven businesses.

两者都是社区驱动的企业。

Lenny: And then in terms of how they structured their org, is there anything there about just here's what I've learned works best for how to build product teams, structure product teams, that stuck with you?

Lenny：然后就他们如何构建组织而言，我所学到的对于如何建立产品团队、构建产品团队来说，有什么最有效的方法让你印象深刻吗？

Nickey Skarstad: Yeah.

尼基·斯卡斯塔：是的。

So I think there's kind of two overarching popular organizational modes for product org specifically.

因此，我认为对于产品组织来说，有两种主要的流行组织模式。

There's either the functional organization where everyone in the product team will report up through either a VP product, or a chief product officer, or something along those lines.

在职能组织中，产品团队中的每个人都将通过产品副总裁或首席产品官或类似的人员进行报告。

And I think that actually really works in certain circumstances and is great.

我认为这在某些情况下确实有效并且很棒。

And typically how that works is you'll have your product partners, your trifecta, if you will, you have your design partner and your engineering partner, they will typically also report up into functional leadership.

通常情况下，它的运作方式是，你将拥有你的产品合作伙伴、你的三连胜，如果你愿意的话，你还有你的设计合作伙伴和工程合作伙伴，他们通常也会向职能领导层报告。

I think in bigger organizations that really works well, especially when you have orgs that need a lot of development in the function.

我认为在较大的组织中，这确实运作良好，尤其是当您的组织需要在功能上进行大量开发时。

So you'll have a lot of either APMs or product managers who are newer in their career and need a lot of support in development.

因此，您将拥有很多 APM 或产品经理，他们是职业生涯的新手，并且需要大量的开发支持。

And I think those functional ways of building makes sense.

我认为这些功能性的构建方式是有意义的。

When I was at Etsy, that was the way that the reporting structure was and it made a lot of sense.

当我在 Etsy 时，报告结构就是这样的，而且很有意义。

Nickey Skarstad: And then on the flip side, actually, when I was at Airbnb, because experiences was this new pretty nascent business opportunity, it had a GM structure.

Nickey Skarstad：另一方面，实际上，当我在 Airbnb 时，因为体验是一个新的相当新生的商业机会，所以它有一个 GM 结构。

And so basically the whole product org that worked on experiences laddered up into a business leader and that business leader managed all of the functions.

因此，基本上，致力于体验的整个产品组织都晋升为业务领导者，而该业务领导者管理所有职能。

So they were the manager of the operations team, the marketing folks, product, and whatever.

所以他们是运营团队、营销人员、产品等的经理。

And I actually think that really worked for team like experiences at a company like Airbnb because what it did is it gave the leader of that business a ton of autonomy to really figure out what does this business need to be successful?

事实上，我认为这对像 Airbnb 这样的公司的团队体验非常有效，因为它给了该企业的领导者大量的自主权，让他们能够真正弄清楚该企业需要什么才能成功？

And they didn't have to rely on, I guess they did in some ways, but not 100% rely on the larger company's resources to get the work that they needed done.

他们不必依赖，我猜他们在某些方面确实这么做了，但不是 100% 依赖大公司的资源来完成他们需要完成的工作。

Nickey Skarstad: And I actually think that had they launched experiences inside of the Etsy style of organizational structure, it never would've succeeded because it had such a unique business need, and it needed its own process and ways of building product, et cetera.

Nickey Skarstad：我实际上认为，如果他们在 Etsy 风格的组织结构内推出体验，它永远不会成功，因为它有如此独特的业务需求，并且需要自己的流程和构建产品的方式，等等。

And because they sort of, hate to say wall it off, because it wasn't fully walled off, but because they gave it its own space and its own structure, it allowed it to succeed because they were able to fund it in the right way, give it the resources that it needed, et cetera.

因为他们有点讨厌说把它隔离开来，因为它没有完全隔离，但因为他们给了它自己的空间和自己的结构，所以它得以成功，因为他们能够以正确的方式为其提供资金，为其提供所需的资源，等等。

Nickey Skarstad: So I've seen those two types of models work.

Nickey Skarstad：所以我已经看到这两种类型的模型是有效的。

And I think if I was a founder and I was building my initial product org, how I would think about it was basically what are we trying to build?

我想，如果我是一名创始人，并且正在构建我最初的产品组织，我会如何看待它基本上是我们想要构建的？

What is the product?

产品是什么？

And then what type of process do we need to put in place for us to figure out how do we build it?

那么我们需要制定什么类型的流程来弄清楚如何构建它？

And then what type of people do we need?

那么我们需要什么样的人呢？

And then really taking a step back to really figure out, all right, organizationally, how do we shape this so we can make sure that those people have autonomy and they have what they need to just be able to cruise?

然后真正退后一步，真正弄清楚，好吧，在组织上，我们如何塑造这一点，以便我们可以确保这些人拥有自主权，并且他们拥有能够巡航所需的东西？

So I honestly don't think there's a right way.

所以说实话，我认为没有正确的方法。

I know that's a non-answer.

我知道这是一个没有答案的问题。

I think it really depends on what you're trying to build and the stage at which you're at.

我认为这实际上取决于您想要构建的内容以及您所处的阶段。

Lenny: Is there a default approach you'd suggest, just like most often you should go to the GM model, or most often you should just go with this cross-functional team?

Lenny：您是否建议采用默认方法，就像大多数情况下您应该采用 GM 模型一样，或者大多数情况下您应该选择这个跨职能团队？

Nickey Skarstad: Yeah.

尼基·斯卡斯塔：是的。

I mean, I think especially if your business is new, going functional makes sense because you don't necessarily have a lot of organizational complexity.

我的意思是，我认为特别是如果您的业务是新的，那么功能化是有意义的，因为您不一定有很多组织复杂性。

Airbnb at the time we were there, Lenny, was a huge company, right?

Lenny，我们当时在那里的 Airbnb 是一家大公司，对吗？

It had tons of different teams that were trying to tackle many different problems.

它有大量不同的团队试图解决许多不同的问题。

So that GM model made a lot of sense because it again was able to take a specific business opportunity, give it the resources that it need, and give it space to run.

因此，通用汽车的模式非常有意义，因为它再次能够抓住特定的商业机会，为其提供所需的资源，并为其提供运行空间。

When your company's smaller stage, I think that matters less.

当你的公司舞台较小时，我认为这就不那么重要了。

Typically, especially if you're working on solving similar problems as an organization, functional makes a ton of sense.

通常，特别是当您作为一个组织致力于解决类似问题时，功能性就很有意义。

Because then you're also thinking more holistically about, all right, how do we build the right product development process across different functions to make sure that we are, to use a bad metaphor, it's like the symphony metaphor.

因为这样你也会更全面地思考，好吧，我们如何跨不同职能构建正确的产品开发流程，以确保我们，用一个不好的比喻来说，就像交响乐的比喻。

You have all these different instruments that need to figure out how do we play together at the right times?

您拥有所有这些不同的乐器，需要弄清楚我们如何在正确的时间一起演奏？

And I think that functional way of working actually allows you to do that really well.

我认为实用的工作方式实际上可以让你做得很好。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Unit.

莱尼：这一集是由 Unit 为您带来的。

What did Gusto, Uber, Shopify, and AngelList all have in common?

Gusto、Uber、Shopify 和 AngelList 有什么共同点？

They've all decided to build banking into their product.

他们都决定将银行业务融入到他们的产品中。

According to AngelList's head of product, "Banking makes every single feature more interesting.

AngelList 的产品负责人表示，“银行业务让每一项功能都变得更加有趣。

With it, our platform functions as financial mission control for our customers.

有了它，我们的平台就可以为客户提供财务任务控制。

Without it, we're just another software tool in a big messy stack." Embedding banking into your product, not only adds differentiation, but also helps you acquire, retain and monetize your customers.

没有它，我们只是一个混乱的堆栈中的另一个软件工具。”将银行业务嵌入到您的产品中，不仅可以增加差异化，还可以帮助您获取、保留客户并从中获利。

Lenny: Unit is the market leader in banking as a service, combining multiple bank partners with a developer friendly API to empower companies of all sizes to launch accounts, cards, payments, and lending in just a few weeks.

Lenny：Unit 是银行即服务领域的市场领导者，它将多个银行合作伙伴与开发人员友好的 API 相结合，使各种规模的公司能够在短短几周内推出账户、银行卡、支付和贷款。

Unit is trusted by leading brands, such as AngelList, ID, Invoice2go, and Roofstock.

Unit 受到 AngelList、ID、Invoice2go 和 Roofstock 等领先品牌的信赖。

To hear more about how Unit enables companies like yours to build banking, visit unit.co/lenny to request a demo or to try their free sandbox.

要了解有关 Unit 如何帮助像您这样的公司建立银行业务的更多信息，请访问unit.co/lenny 请求演示或尝试他们的免费沙箱。

That's unit.co/lenny.

这是unit.co/lenny。

Lenny: Something I learned at Airbnb and from many other companies at this point is there's never going to be the one right way to structure, and companies bounce back and forth between them.

Lenny：我在 Airbnb 和许多其他公司学到的东西是，永远不会有一种正确的结构方式，公司会在它们之间来回切换。

Like Airbnb, for example, has moved from GM model to functional reporting lines back to GM.

例如，Airbnb 已经从 GM 模式转向向 GM 汇报职能。

And so things change and you try some, see how it goes, adjust, optimize for the biggest opportunity.

因此，事情会发生变化，你会尝试一些，看看进展如何，进行调整、优化，以获得最大的机会。

And then you'll probably change it six months later.

然后你可能会在六个月后改变它。

Lenny: I asked a few people that know you and that worked with you questions that they think I should ask you.

莱尼：我问了一些认识你并与你共事的人，他们认为我应该问你一些问题。

And one of the questions that came up most often is around how you set vision, translate that into goals, and then execute on those goals.

最常出现的问题之一是如何设定愿景，将其转化为目标，然后执行这些目标。

And I know that's something a lot of PMs want to get better at and something that a lot of PMs aren't great at.

我知道这是很多产品经理想要做得更好的事情，也是很多产品经理不擅长的事情。

And so can you just share any thoughts, advice, stories around that and how you do that well?

那么你能分享一下关于这方面的任何想法、建议、故事以及你是如何做得好的吗？

Nickey Skarstad: Yeah.

尼基·斯卡斯塔：是的。

Well one, I want to know who you talked to.

第一，我想知道你和谁谈过话。

That's terrifying.

太可怕了。

Hopefully they said good things.

希望他们说的是好话。

You don't have to out them.

你不必把它们赶出去。

Lenny: Unnamed sources.

莱尼：未透露姓名的消息来源。

Unnamed sources.

未透露姓名的消息来源。

Nickey Skarstad: Yes.

尼基·斯卡斯塔：是的。

Well I'm glad to hear that because that actually is some of the work that I honestly love the most.

嗯，我很高兴听到这个，因为这实际上是我最喜欢的一些工作。

And when I look at my calendar, those are moments where I am green energy.

当我查看我的日历时，那些时刻就是我代表绿色能量的时刻。

And so I have some first principles that I like to apply when I'm thinking about setting high level vision and strategy.

因此，当我考虑制定高层次愿景和战略时，我喜欢应用一些首要原则。

And the first is make sure that you pull in your people and your team.

首先是确保吸引你的员工和团队。

I've seen a lot of director level people through my career who will try to work on strategy in a vacuum alone.

在我的职业生涯中，我见过很多主管级别的人，他们会尝试在真空中独自制定战略。

They'll write a document and they'll be like, "Okay, team.

他们会写一份文件，然后说：“好吧，团队。

Here's what we're doing.

这就是我们正在做的事情。

Here's our strategy." And it never goes well.

这是我们的策略。”而且事情从来都不顺利。

And it doesn't go well.

但进展并不顺利。

It might be the right strategy, but because you did not bring people along on that journey to come up with it, they did not feel like they had a hand in crafting it themselves.

这可能是正确的策略，但因为你没有让人们一起参与这个旅程来想出它，所以他们觉得自己没有参与制定它。

They are often not bought in, and getting people to buy in when they haven't been involved is very challenging and time consuming.

他们往往不被接受，而让人们在没有参与的情况下接受是非常具有挑战性和耗时的。

We don't got time, right?

我们没有时间，对吧？

Nickey Skarstad: And so I think that's my first principle is just bring along the team.

Nickey Skarstad：所以我认为我的首要原则就是带领团队一起前进。

And I think there are ways to do that where you're not voting on strategy.

我认为有一些方法可以做到这一点，而无需对策略进行投票。

You should not be voting.

你不应该投票。

I think good product work is often not democratic, right?

我认为好的产品工作往往不民主，对吗？

You need a clear leader who understands a lot of the signals and understands the larger competitive marketplace that can make decisions.

您需要一位清晰的领导者，他了解大量信号并了解可以做出决策的更大的竞争市场。

And I think, especially when you're thinking about strategy, it's great to get input, but ultimately at the end of the day, you should have one person who is responsible for it.

我认为，特别是当你考虑战略时，获得意见是很棒的，但最终，你应该有一个人来负责。

Nickey Skarstad: And the other thing is a lot of times people don't really talk to leadership or the larger business leaders to get organizational context that helps them come up with the right strategy.

Nickey Skarstad：另一件事是，很多时候人们并没有真正与领导层或更大的企业领导者交谈，以获取有助于他们制定正确战略的组织背景。

They'll sort of build something in a vacuum, and then they'll come up with it and they'll get a ton of feedback from people across the org that were like, "Oh, this conflates with our strategy.

他们会在真空中构建一些东西，然后他们会想出它，然后他们会从整个组织的人员那里得到大量反馈，比如，“哦，这与我们的策略相结合。

We're doing this, and it's very similar." Or, "Our structural platform actually does not have the capability for us to do that thing." Whatever.

我们正在做这个，而且非常相似。”或者，“我们的结构平台实际上没有能力让我们做那件事。”任何。

And so just make sure that you're talking to people.

因此，请确保您正在与人交谈。

And also all the way up to the CEO, and making sure the founder and the CEO is very bought in because ultimately, at the end of the day, they're choosing to resource what you're working on and are going to help you meet what you need.

一直到首席执行官，并确保创始人和首席执行官非常认同，因为最终，他们会选择为你正在做的事情提供资源，并会帮助你满足你的需求。

So those are some of the foundations for good vision and strategy work.

这些是良好愿景和战略工作的一些基础。

Nickey Skarstad: And then kind of zooming down into the weeds, I really like the vision mission strategy pyramid.

Nickey Skarstad：然后再深入了解一下，我真的很喜欢愿景任务战略金字塔。

I think might be a little tired.

我想可能是有点累了。

I like to think it's wired.

我喜欢认为它是有线的。

But yeah.

但是是的。

So if you just think about a pyramid shape, at the top is vision.

因此，如果你只考虑金字塔形状，那么顶部就是视觉。

Below it is mission and strategy, and then objectives.

下面是使命和战略，然后是目标。

And this is a very simple framework.

这是一个非常简单的框架。

You honestly just Google vision mission strategy objectives, and you'll see it in Google image results.

老实说，你只是谷歌愿景使命战略目标，你会在谷歌图像结果中看到它。

And all it is really is thinking about hitting those specific notes and thinking about them top down.

真正要做的就是考虑击中这些特定的音符并自上而下地思考它们。

So where do you need to go long term?

那么长期需要去哪里呢？

What is the long term vision of what you're trying to do?

您正在尝试做的事情的长期愿景是什么？

In 10 years, if you could zoom up and look at what an ideal path for you would be, what is that?

10年后，如果你能放大看看你的理想道路是什么，那是什么？

Write it down.

把它写下来。

Nickey Skarstad: And then you start, as you go down the pyramid, you get clearer and basically you bring things down to your moment in time more clearly.

Nickey Skarstad：然后你开始，当你走下金字塔时，你会变得更加清晰，基本上你会更清楚地把事情归结到你所处的时刻。

So if you're thinking about your mission, all right, it's another level of abstraction of how do we make our vision come to life.

因此，如果您正在考虑自己的使命，那么这是我们如何实现愿景的另一个抽象层面。

And then you get into strategy.

然后你就进入战略阶段。

All right, how do we actually pick apart what we think is going to need to happen for us to actually be able to execute on that vision?

好吧，我们如何真正区分我们认为需要发生什么才能真正实现这一愿景？

And then your objectives can be OKRs, or whatever sort of goal setting model that you use to really one level get clear on, all right, in the next three to six months, what are the actual notes that we need to hit to be able to sing that beautiful symphony, is a terrible metaphor.

然后你的目标可以是 OKR，或者你用来真正明确一个级别的任何类型的目标设定模型，好吧，在接下来的三到六个月内，我们需要击中哪些实际音符才能唱出那首美丽的交响乐，这是一个可怕的比喻。

And now I'm open to say it.

现在我可以公开地说出来了。

But whatever.

但无论如何。

Lenny: That's evocative.

莱尼：这很令人回味。

While we're on that topic, actually just to interrupt briefly, how are you very practically doing this for say vision and mission?

当我们谈论这个话题时，实际上只是简单地打断一下，您实际上是如何为愿景和使命做到这一点的？

Are you starting a Google doc and writing it out, are you using Miro or FigJam, or something like that?

您是否正在创建 Google 文档并把它写出来，您是否使用 Miro 或 FigJam，或者类似的东西？

Nickey Skarstad: Yeah, so I think visioning exercise is a great moment to pull in your larger team.

Nickey Skarstad：是的，所以我认为愿景练习是吸引更大团队的好时机。

Because I'm remote now, I would use Miro or FigJam.

因为我现在在远程，所以我会使用 Miro 或 FigJam。

Duolingo, we use FigJam typically because we are super embedded in Figma.

Duolingo，我们通常使用 FigJam，因为我们超级嵌入 Figma。

In the past I've used MURAL.

过去我用过MURAL。

I actually personally like MURAL's whiteboarding product better.

其实我个人更喜欢MURAL的白板产品。

So I would open that up and I would walk through a number of things with the team and do a brainstorm literally.

所以我会打开这个问题，与团队一起讨论一些事情，并进行真正的头脑风暴。

All right.

好的。

Where do you all see us going in 10 years?

大家认为 10 年后我们会走向何方？

What do we think what is the larger competitive landscape going to do in the next 10 years that could need to influence the work that we're doing?

我们认为未来 10 年更大的竞争格局将如何影响我们正在做的工作？

What are their ideas, and get everyone thinking.

他们的想法是什么，引发大家思考。

Nickey Skarstad: Good brainstorm are often cross-functional.

Nickey Skarstad：好的头脑风暴往往是跨职能的。

So go outside of your own team.

因此，请走出自己的团队。

Can you pull in somebody from marketing?

你能从营销部门拉人吗？

Can somebody from the larger policy team sit in?

来自更大政策团队的人可以参加吗？

How do you make it really cross-functional and really zoom up and give everyone the space and the freedom to think existential and to frame it that way,?we are going to be thinking in a five to 10 year timeline.

如何使其真正跨职能、真正放大并为每个人提供思考存在主义并以这种方式构建它的空间和自由？我们将在五到十年的时间内进行思考。

Do not worry about what's happening today.

不要担心今天发生的事情。

And honestly, if you do that right, those are super fun exercises.

老实说，如果你做得正确，这些都是非常有趣的练习。

Lenny: And you're doing this remotely, I imagine.

莱尼：我想你是在远程做这件事。

Lenny: And so do you just kind of schedule a meeting, kick it off, point everyone to this Miro doc, for example, with a bunch of prompts and sticky notes and things like that?

莱尼：所以你只是安排一个会议，开始会议，让每个人都看到这个 Miro 文档，例如，带有一堆提示和便签之类的东西？

How do you actually practically do that?

你实际上是如何做到这一点的？

Nickey Skarstad: So I would pre-fill out the Miro beforehand.

Nickey Skarstad：所以我会提前预先填写 Miro。

So figure out what are the things you want to discuss with your team, create them as headers in the Miro document.

因此，弄清楚您想要与团队讨论的事情是什么，将它们创建为 Miro 文档中的标题。

So when everyone lands in there, you have a very clear here's what we're talking about today.

因此，当每个人都到达那里时，您就会非常清楚这就是我们今天所讨论的内容。

You can put that into the agenda on your calendar invite.

您可以将其放入日历邀请的议程中。

I've actually been to some really good strategic brainstorms that will attach some kind of competitive thinking landscape in advance.

事实上，我参加过一些非常好的战略头脑风暴，这些头脑风暴将提前附加某种竞争性思维格局。

So people could have a little bit of a pre-read.

所以人们可以预先阅读一下。

Nickey Skarstad: And then when you get into the actual session, you already have the time allotments scheduled and thought through.

Nickey Skarstad：当你进入实际会议时，你已经安排好时间分配并经过深思熟虑。

And both Miro and FigJam have really awesome timer, and it'll play music while everyone is working.

Miro 和 FigJam 都有非常棒的计时器，它会在每个人工作时播放音乐。

It's pretty cute.

非常可爱。

FigJam's sounds are really well done.

FigJam 的声音确实做得很好。

Whoever their sound architect is, bravo.

无论他们的声音设计师是谁，太棒了。

And it'll ding after, give them 10 minutes and it'll give you a nice chime, and then you can review them together and you can go through each touchpoint that you want to talk about.

之后它会响起，给他们 10 分钟，它会给你一个很好的铃声，然后你可以一起回顾它们，你可以浏览你想谈论的每个接触点。

Nickey Skarstad: After it's done, I like to do some synthesis together in the meeting.

Nickey Skarstad：完成后，我喜欢在会议中一起进行一些综合。

So basically grab ideas that are similar, bucket things into concepts that are alike.

因此，基本上抓住相似的想法，将事物放入相似的概念中。

And then I will take it later and spend more time thinking about it.

然后我会稍后再花更多时间思考它。

I think a lot of people think you have to actually come away with a vision together in a meeting that's very clear, and you don't.

我想很多人都认为你们必须在一次会议上真正达成一个非常清晰的愿景，但事实并非如此。

You can just come up with ideas, take a stab at drafting it, and get some more feedback before it's final.

您可以提出想法，尝试起草它，并在最终确定之前获得更多反馈。

Lenny: One last question on this thread, which also could be an entire hour of discussion, are there any examples of prompts or things you ideated that you could share?

莱尼：这个话题的最后一个问题，也可能是一整小时的讨论，有没有任何提示的例子或者你认为可以分享的事情？

I know you can't talk about what you're doing at Duolingo, but just to make it a little more concrete for people, what are some examples of things that you brainstormed?

我知道你不能谈论你在 Duolingo 所做的事情，但为了让人们更具体一点，你可以举出一些你集思广益的例子吗？

Nickey Skarstad: Yeah.

尼基·斯卡斯塔：是的。

I mean, so to take it back to experiences, because we've talked about that a lot, so people have some baseline context.

我的意思是，回到经验上来，因为我们已经讨论了很多，所以人们有一些基线背景。

Some of the early experiences visioning was really interesting because it was all about what type of experience can we create.

早期的一些体验愿景非常有趣，因为这完全取决于我们可以创造什么类型的体验。

And really thinking through when you've traveled in the past, what has brought you joy?

认真想一想，当你过去旅行时，是什么给你带来了快乐？

Or what were the moments in your travel journey that have been really interesting, provocative, basically you remember the most, and why?

或者，在您的旅行旅程中，哪些时刻非常有趣、具有启发性，基本上您记得最多，为什么？

And thinking through some of those things as a group.

并作为一个团队思考其中的一些事情。

And those are good group exercises, because you're like, wow, I got to know a lot about Lenny by that crazy travel experience that he had.

这些都是很好的小组练习，因为你会想，哇，通过莱尼那次疯狂的旅行经历，我对他有了很多了解。

And so really kind of thinking through about how you craft really meaningful prompts that, again, connect to your strategy.

因此，认真思考如何制作真正有意义的提示，再次与您的策略相关联。

So how does that ladder up into strategy?

那么，这如何上升为战略呢？

Obviously thinking through the experience that you're creating is going to help you come up with the right vision and fill out your pyramid in the right way, right?

显然，思考你正在创造的体验将帮助你提出正确的愿景并以正确的方式填写你的金字塔，对吧？

Lenny: Okay.

莱尼：好的。

So we went on kind of on a tangent around brainstorming.

所以我们就围绕头脑风暴进行了一些切线。

Did you want to share more around just going from vision to goals to execution?

您想分享更多关于从愿景到目标再到执行的内容吗？

Nickey Skarstad: Yeah.

尼基·斯卡斯塔：是的。

So I think just generally, as you walk down that strategy pyramid, really getting down into the OKRs.

所以我认为一般来说，当你沿着战略金字塔走下去时，真正深入了解 OKR。

And I think it's important because sometimes strategy is too abstract and too high level.

我认为这很重要，因为有时战略太抽象、太高层次。

And it's hard for people to take the step on how do I walk up that pyramid?

人们很难迈出我如何走上金字塔的一步？

And that to me is where having good strategy and having good OKRs help your team do that.

对我来说，拥有良好的策略和良好的 OKR 可以帮助你的团队做到这一点。

And so good OKRs to me are just clear articulations of your strategy, whatever it is that are important to you, and it boils it down into the next three months, here's what we're working on.

对我来说，好的 OKR 就是对你的战略的清晰阐述，无论对你来说重要的是什么，它都归结为接下来的三个月，这就是我们正在做的事情。

And I think that is just really good for teams because, again, if you're always in the clouds, it starts to get hard to really bring things down to the feature level of we're going to create a Jira ticket for this specific thing that we need to build.

我认为这对团队来说非常有好处，因为如果你总是在云端，那么将事情真正降低到我们需要构建的这个特定事物的 Jira 票证的功能级别就开始变得困难。

It needs to connect up to a strategy and back down.

它需要连接到一个策略并返回。

Lenny: Got it.

莱尼：明白了。

Where do you put, say, these OKRs?

比如说，你把这些 OKR 放在哪里？

Do you just brainstorm, come up with vision and rough strategy, that translates into goals?

您是否只是集思广益，提出愿景和粗略策略，然后转化为目标？

Where do you do this?

你在哪里做这个？

And then also just how long do you usually spend on this overall process?

然后您通常在整个过程上花费多长时间？

Nickey Skarstad: Yeah.

尼基·斯卡斯塔：是的。

So the way that we do it at Duolingo now is we work on quarterly OKRs.

因此，我们现在在 Duolingo 的做法是制定季度 OKR。

And so that process will kick off usually the third month in the quarter.

因此，该过程通常会在该季度的第三个月开始。

Really thinking through, all right, how are we trending on our OKRs this quarter?

认真思考一下，好吧，本季度我们的 OKR 趋势如何？

Did we commit to the right number of things?

我们是否承诺了正确数量的事情？

How are we doing?

我们怎么样？

And then it is going, all right, so what do we need to do next quarter?

然后一切都会进行，那么下个季度我们需要做什么？

And ideally, again, that's going to plug into a longer term plan.

理想情况下，这将再次纳入长期计划。

Otherwise it feels a little messy, and it feels not grounded in a long term plan or strategy in any way, shape, or form.

否则，它会让人感觉有点混乱，而且感觉没有任何方式、形状或形式的长期计划或策略的基础。

Nickey Skarstad: And then, so what we'll do is spend a few weeks as a team coming up with, all right, what could the next quarter look like?

Nickey Skarstad：然后，我们要做的就是作为一个团队花几周时间想出，好吧，下个季度会是什么样子？

What is going to add the most impact and help us execute on that long term strategy?

什么将增加最大的影响并帮助我们执行长期战略？

And then how do we make sure that we're setting the right objectives and KRs below them?

那么我们如何确保我们设定了正确的目标以及低于目标的 KR？

And then usually there's some sort of leadership review.

然后通常会有某种领导力审查。

I actually forget, Lenny, how did goal setting go at Airbnb?

我实际上忘记了，莱尼，爱彼迎的目标设定是如何进行的？

I honestly don't remember.

老实说我不记得了。

It sounds terrible, but it was a while ago.

听起来很可怕，但那是不久前的事了。

I can't even remember if Airbnb used OKRs.

我什至不记得 Airbnb 是否使用过 OKR。

Lenny: There was a long period where OKRs were a very big deal.

Lenny：在很长一段时间内，OKR 都是一件非常重要的事情。

Our head of product was really gungho on OKRs.

我们的产品主管对 OKR 非常热心。

And I think for a couple years, we were very strict OKR culture.

我认为几年来，我们的 OKR 文化非常严格。

And then it kind of evolved into just rough-

然后它就演变成粗略的-

Lenny: ...

莱尼：……

interpretation of OKRs.

OKR 的解释。

Yeah, goals and strategy and mission and vision.

是的，目标、战略、使命和愿景。

And so it's kind of this morphed version at this point, as far as I know.

据我所知，目前这是一种变形版本。

Nickey Skarstad: Gotcha.

尼基·斯卡斯塔：明白了。

Yeah.

是的。

And I will say OKR frameworks might not be the best for every single team, but having some sort of goal framework that is shared across functions is useful no matter the size or the scale of your business.

我想说 OKR 框架可能并不适合每个团队，但无论您的业务规模如何，拥有某种跨职能共享的目标框架都是有用的。

I think a lot of times people get hung up and they want to nitpick OKRs specifically.

我认为很多时候人们会陷入困境，他们想专门挑剔 OKR。

And I think some of those criticisms are very fair.

我认为其中一些批评是非常公平的。

But you should have some sort of framework that's shared from a process standpoint across your team that everyone can use and work on together.

但是，您应该拥有某种从流程角度来看在整个团队中共享的框架，每个人都可以使用并一起工作。

Because again, it takes your strategy and it brings it down into the now.

因为它再次需要你的策略并将其落实到当下。

So you can act on, in the next three months, you can bring something to life, and you're very clear on what that looks like.

所以你可以采取行动，在接下来的三个月里，你可以把一些东西变成现实，而且你非常清楚它是什么样子。

Lenny: I'm going to pull out a thread of something you mentioned earlier of how to finally make decisions.

莱尼：我将从你之前提到的关于如何最终做出决定的事情中抽出一条线索。

And how in your experience the PM kind of is often sort of a final decision maker.

根据您的经验，PM 通常是最终决策者。

I'd love to hear any advice you have of how to set that up on a team where it's either clear the PMs have a little bit more say and/or just bring people along to a final conclusion.

我很想听听您对如何在团队中建立这一点的任何建议，在该团队中，PM 显然有更多的发言权和/或只是让人们得出最终结论。

Is there any advice on tips and tactics used to help with that?

有没有关于技巧和策略的建议来帮助解决这个问题？

Nickey Skarstad: Yeah.

尼基·斯卡斯塔：是的。

So I actually just read this really great book that is slightly tangential, but I thought it really applied to this type of basically getting people to align on decisions.

所以我实际上只是读了这本非常伟大的书，虽然有点离题，但我认为它确实适用于这种基本上让人们在决策上保持一致的类型。

It's by Chris Voss.

这是克里斯·沃斯的作品。

He is this famous FBI negotiator.

他就是这位著名的FBI谈判代表。

I think it's called Split the Difference: Negotiating As if Your Life Depends on It.

我认为这就是所谓的“平分秋色：谈判，就好像你的生活取决于它”。

Don't quote me on that.

不要引用我的话。

Lenny: I think it's Never Split the Difference, right?

莱尼：我认为这永远不会平分秋色，对吧？

And then I think he's also got a masterclass which I've watched, which is really good.

然后我想他也有一个我看过的大师班，这真的很棒。

Nickey Skarstad: I actually haven't watched the masterclass yet, but it's on my list after reading the book.

Nickey Skarstad：实际上我还没有看过大师班，但读完这本书后它就在我的清单上了。

And a lot of it, I think, especially because he's an FBI person, I thought it was going to be very much, "You're going to do this." And it's all basically his whole approach is empathy, and it's repeating things back to you, making people feel heard, making sure that you're hearing why they maybe don't like your strategy, or why they think that's a bad OKR.

我认为，很多事情，特别是因为他是联邦调查局的人，我认为这将是非常多的，“你会这样做。”基本上，他的整个方法就是同理心，就是向你重复事情，让人们感觉自己被倾听，确保你听到他们为什么可能不喜欢你的策略，或者为什么他们认为这是一个糟糕的 OKR。

And I think if you can spend some time just listening to your team and really understanding why is this not resonating, you can help guide people on the right path.

我认为，如果你能花一些时间倾听你的团队的意见，并真正理解为什么这没有引起共鸣，你可以帮助引导人们走上正确的道路。

Or you realize you're wrong.

或者你意识到你错了。

Good PMs are humble people, right?

好的产品经理都是谦虚的人，对吗？

You're not always right.

你并不总是对的。

Not always going to be right.

并不总是正确的。

So how do you know when you're right and wrong is another good podcast that you should do with somebody else cause I'm probably not very at it.

所以你怎么知道你什么时候是对的，什么时候是错的，这是另一个很好的播客，你应该和其他人一起做，因为我可能不太擅长。

Yeah.

是的。

Nickey Skarstad: Yeah.

尼基·斯卡斯塔：是的。

But I think that helps.

但我认为这有帮助。

And the other thing is I love the concept of one way versus two way door decision making, right?

另一件事是我喜欢单向决策与双向决策的概念，对吧？

If your team is making a really critical long-term decision that's going to be limiting to a lot of the future things that you could want or need to do, that is a one way door decision.

如果您的团队正在做出一项非常关键的长期决策，该决策将限制您未来可能想要或需要做的许多事情，那么这就是一个单向决策。

And you should spend time really thinking about discussing it, getting feedback and buy-in from your larger community, from your leadership team, et cetera.

你应该花时间真正思考讨论它，从你的更大的社区、你的领导团队等那里获得反馈和支持。

If it is a two-way door decision, it's not going to make a huge impact, you can change it later if you need to, let your team cruise on those things.

如果这是一个双向决定，它不会产生巨大的影响，如果需要，您可以稍后更改它，让您的团队在这些事情上进行巡航。

Because it gives people autonomy.

因为它赋予人们自主权。

It helps you move fast.

它可以帮助您快速行动。

And then it just makes sure that when it does come down to decisions that are harder to change longer term, then those are the moments you should spend time and really think about and discuss and debate, et cetera.

然后它只是确保当它确实涉及到长期难以改变的决定时，那么这些就是你应该花时间真正思考、讨论和辩论的时刻，等等。

Lenny: Do you have any examples or stories that come to mind of those sorts of decisions that you kind of help people just go for it, even though I may not necessarily agree?

莱尼：你有没有想到一些例子或故事来帮助人们做出这样的决定，尽管我可能不一定同意？

Nickey Skarstad: Let's see.

尼基·斯卡斯塔：让我们看看。

Yeah.

是的。

So one big one that we made at Airbnb that was pretty formative in early days was we came up with basically an articulation of what we thought a good experience was, and the standards that an experience needed to meet for it to be considered a good experience for us.

因此，我们在 Airbnb 所做的一件大事，在早期非常具有影响力，就是我们基本上明确了我们认为好的体验是什么，以及一种体验需要满足什么标准，才能被认为是对我们来说好的体验。

And that was a many month long term project.

这是一个为期数月的长期项目。

And it was so important because we ended up building the product around it, building our policies around it, building how we educated our hosts around it.

这非常重要，因为我们最终围绕它构建了产品，围绕它制定了我们的政策，围绕它建立了我们如何教育我们的东道主。

We had one moment in time to figure it out and get it right until it scaled everywhere.

我们有一段时间来弄清楚并把它做好，直到它扩展到所有地方。

And so that was a true one way door decision where it was really hard to change later because we literally needed it to be relatively final.

所以这是一个真正的单向决定，以后很难改变，因为我们确实需要它是相对最终的。

Nickey Skarstad: On Etsy, there was some big decisions that were made at certain points in time around what can be sold in the marketplace, and how to think through what constitutes something that is hand made.

Nickey Skarstad：在 Etsy 上，在某些时间点做出了一些重大决定，围绕什么可以在市场上出售，以及如何思考手工制作的东西是什么。

Those were one way door decisions, right?

这些都是单向决定，对吗？

It's really hard to change that later because it's going to influence all of the listings that you have in your ecosystem.

以后很难改变这一点，因为它将影响您生态系统中的所有列表。

And so I think really thinking through those types of things are important and really setting teams up to be able to pause and spend some time to get it right because it will influence the end product in a very real way.

因此，我认为真正思考这些类型的事情很重要，并且真正让团队能够停下来花一些时间把事情做好，因为这将以非常真实的方式影响最终产品。

Lenny: How do you know if it's a one way or a two way door decision?

莱尼：你怎么知道这是单向门还是双向门决定？

Do you find that it's generally pretty obvious when you're making the decision, or is it sometimes like, oh shit, we should have thought about that more?

你是否发现，当你做出决定时，这通常是非常明显的，或者有时是不是，哦，该死，我们应该更多地考虑这一点？

Nickey Skarstad: Yeah.

尼基·斯卡斯塔：是的。

I would say I think I'm good at this 80% of the time these days, just because I've seen it done wrong in a lot of ways.

我想说，我认为现在 80% 的时间我都擅长这件事，只是因为我看到它在很多方面都做错了。

But I think it's a muscle that you build honestly, and you get better over time about thinking about second order thinking.

但我认为这是你诚实地建立起来的肌肉，随着时间的推移，你在思考二阶思维方面会变得更好。

And so it's starting to understand, all right, if I make this decision today, it's going to impact this next level of decisions and the next level after that.

所以它开始理解，好吧，如果我今天做出这个决定，它将影响下一个级别的决策以及之后的下一个级别。

And that will cascade through our larger system.

这将贯穿我们更大的系统。

Nickey Skarstad: A great book to read if you are a product person is Thinking in Systems by Donella Meadows.

Nickey Skarstad：如果您是一名产品人员，Donella Meadows 的《系统思考》是一本值得一读的好书。

It's just about really thinking through how systems work, and then you can start to extrapolate what is the second order effect of the system.

这只是真正思考系统如何工作，然后你可以开始推断系统的二阶效应是什么。

And if you think about that through your own ecosystem, it starts to help you understand, all right, this is a linchpin in our larger ecosystem that we got to be really careful about if we're going to touch it or change it longer term.

如果你通过自己的生态系统来思考这一点，它就会开始帮助你理解，好吧，这是我们更大的生态系统中的一个关键，如果我们要长期接触它或改变它，我们必须非常小心。

But I do think some of that it's muscle, you build it over time.

但我确实认为其中一些是肌肉，你会随着时间的推移而增强它。

You make a couple of mistakes sometimes, and then you have to realize the true consequences of those mistakes and you don't make it again.

有时你会犯一些错误，然后你必须意识到这些错误的真正后果，并且你不会再犯同样的错误。

Lenny: Can we talk a bit more about the second order decision framework?

Lenny：我们能多谈谈二阶决策框架吗？

I know you have a awesome newsletter post about this, and it was something I wanted to chat about.

我知道您有一篇关于此的精彩时事通讯文章，这也是我想讨论的内容。

Is this a framework that PMs can use to make better decisions?

这是 PM 可以用来做出更好决策的框架吗？

And I guess how could they do that?

我猜他们怎么能这么做呢？

And then maybe just describe a little bit more about just this concept of second order decisions, because it sounds really important.

然后也许只是更多地描述一下二阶决策的概念，因为它听起来非常重要。

Nickey Skarstad: Yeah.

尼基·斯卡斯塔：是的。

Basically what second order thinking is is you being able to think beyond the decisions that you're making today.

基本上，二阶思维是指你能够超越今天所做的决定进行思考。

The decisions you make today will affect tomorrow's decisions and your ability to build on your decisions that you made today.

您今天做出的决定将影响明天的决定以及您在今天做出的决定的基础上继续发展的能力。

And this feels very existential and meta, but why it's important is that, especially when you're building product, is there's a cost associated with your time of everything you build.

这感觉非常存在和元，但为什么它很重要是，特别是当你构建产品时，是否存在与你构建的所有内容的时间相关的成本。

Especially when you're building marketplaces or anything with UGC content.

特别是当您正在构建市场或任何包含 UGC 内容的内容时。

When you make a change today, and it impacts every single user in your ecosystem that then is going to act on that change, it's really hard to make those changes later.

当您今天进行更改时，它会影响生态系统中的每个用户，然后将对该更改采取行动，以后真的很难进行这些更改。

Nickey Skarstad: Let's talk about Airbnb home listing as an example.

Nickey Skarstad：让我们以 Airbnb 房屋列表为例。

Really thinking through what are the pieces of data or all the pieces of data in the system that we need to actually list a home.

认真思考我们需要列出一个家庭的系统中的哪些数据或所有数据。

And then how do we use those throughout our whole system in different ways?

那么我们如何以不同的方式在整个系统中使用它们呢？

And then anytime you have to change those things.

然后任何时候你都必须改变这些事情。

So that could be little simple things like truncating the length of the title of an Airbnb home when it's listed on the platform.

因此，这可能是一些简单的事情，比如在平台上列出 Airbnb 房屋时截断其标题长度。

You're going to have mad hosts, you're going to have design changes that need to be made to make sure that they can actually display something in a different way.

你将会遇到疯狂的主机，你将会需要进行设计更改，以确保他们实际上可以以不同的方式显示某些内容。

It gets just inherently more complex the more complex your system is.

系统越复杂，它本质上就越复杂。

So that is probably a terribly described way of describing second order thinking.

所以这可能是描述二阶思维的一种糟糕的描述方式。

Lenny: That makes total sense.

莱尼：这完全有道理。

And that's something we dealt with it, sorry to interrupt, but that's like on the host team, we dealt with this question often of just any change you make and the listing flow is going to impact so much of the experience of a host and a guest.

这就是我们处理的问题，很抱歉打扰，但这就像在房东团队中一样，我们经常处理这个问题，只要您所做的任何更改，列表流程都会影响房东和房客的体验。

And so that makes total sense.

所以这是完全有道理的。

Sorry, keep going.

抱歉，继续。

Nickey Skarstad: Yeah.

尼基·斯卡斯塔：是的。

No, and I think that forcing yourself and your team to think in that way is just a really good thinking exercise because it will save you time and it will save you money, a lot of money later, if you don't constantly have to rebuild things when you want to make changes to your system later.

不，我认为强迫你自己和你的团队以这种方式思考只是一个很好的思考练习，因为它会节省你的时间，也会节省你的钱，以后会节省很多钱，如果你以后想对系统进行更改时不需要不断地重建东西的话。

And that ladders up again into having a very clear vision and a strategy.

这再次提升为拥有非常清晰的愿景和战略。

Because what you're doing is you're starting to think on the long horizon.

因为你正在做的是你开始从长远的角度思考。

And so the decisions that you're making today are in service of that long horizon.

因此，您今天做出的决定是为了实现这一长远目标。

So you can actually build in that direction and you don't constantly have to rebuild every time you're trying to change something.

因此，您实际上可以朝这个方向进行构建，而不必在每次尝试更改某些内容时都不断地进行重建。

Lenny: On the second order thinking, sorry, I called it second order decision, but in this framework that you spoke of, how do you actually operationalize this concept?

莱尼：关于二阶思维，抱歉，我称之为二阶决策，但在你提到的这个框架中，你如何实际操作这个概念？

When you're planning, do you write out in the document second order impact that we should be thinking about, or do you do something else?

当您进行规划时，您是否在文档中写出我们应该考虑的二阶影响，或者您是否做了其他事情？

Nickey Skarstad: Yeah.

尼基·斯卡斯塔：是的。

So I think there's many ways to do this.

所以我认为有很多方法可以做到这一点。

If you have a spec-ed template or a piece of documentation that your team typically use when they're writing out product strategy or product requirements, et cetera, you can put a line in here to force people to think about it.

如果您有您的团队在编写产品策略或产品需求等时通常使用的规范模板或文档，您可以在此处添加一行以迫使人们考虑它。

I also think thinking about first principles and writing out first principles for the changes that you're making often are in service of second order thinking.

我还认为，思考首要原则并为你所做的改变写出首要原则通常有助于二阶思维。

Where it's like here are the things that we care about.

这里就是我们关心的事情。

Here's why these things are important.

这就是为什么这些事情很重要。

And we want to make sure these are baked into what we're building.

我们希望确保这些融入到我们正在构建的内容中。

Typically you'll write those through the lens of second order thinking.

通常你会通过二阶思维的视角来写这些内容。

Nickey Skarstad: Shopify uses first principles a lot in everything that they build.

Nickey Skarstad：Shopify 在他们构建的所有内容中都大量使用第一原则。

And this is something I took away from that way of working because it's extremely effective.

这是我从这种工作方式中学到的东西，因为它非常有效。

If you can get teams to align on first principles early on, it saves you a lot of heartache later because you've got people to align way early days before you even got into the design process, or before you had to start thinking about how do we actually technically implement this.

如果你能让团队尽早就首要原则达成一致，那么以后你就可以省去很多心痛，因为在你进入设计过程之前，或者在你必须开始思考我们如何在技术上实际实现这一点之前，你就已经让人们尽早达成一致了。

Nickey Skarstad: And then the other way I would say is there's ways to structure or have thoughtful discussion around second order effects.

Nickey Skarstad：我想说的另一种方式是，有一些方法可以围绕二阶效应进行结构化或深思熟虑的讨论。

That could be a brainstorm.

这可能是一场头脑风暴。

You could use Miro to think about that.

你可以用米罗来思考这个问题。

We're going to make these changes today.

我们今天将进行这些更改。

How do they cascade through our ecosystem?

它们如何级联通过我们的生态系统？

What are the gotchas or the things we need to worry about?

有哪些陷阱或我们需要担心的事情？

And again, I think the more complex your ecosystem is, the more you are forced to do this.

再说一次，我认为你的生态系统越复杂，你就越被迫这样做。

A lot of founders in early stage products don't think like this because they're so focused on the product market fit.

许多早期产品的创始人并不这么想，因为他们非常关注产品的市场契合度。

We need to just get something that people are using.

我们需要得到人们正在使用的东西。

That then when they get product market fit, they realize when they get into scale mode, they didn't build something scalable, and they have to rebuild things which can actually really hurt them when they're trying to grow really quickly later on.

然后，当他们获得适合市场的产品时，他们意识到，当他们进入规模模式时，他们没有构建可扩展的东西，他们必须重建一些东西，当他们以后试图快速增长时，这些东西实际上会对他们造成伤害。

Lenny: Yeah.

莱尼：是的。

Absolutely.

绝对地。

Happens all the time.

一直在发生。

For principles, do you put those in to say the team strategy, like the quarterly strategy document?

对于原则，您是否将其放入团队战略中，例如季度战略文件？

Like here's our principles for the quarter?

这是我们本季度的原则吗？

Is that how you generally do that?

你们通常都是这样做的吗？

Nickey Skarstad: Yeah.

尼基·斯卡斯塔：是的。

I think that is a great place to put it.

我认为这是一个很好的地方。

You can write them on the feature level too.

您也可以在功能级别上编写它们。

So something that you're building, just getting clearer on here are the things that matter to us.

因此，您正在构建的东西，只是在这里变得更加清晰，对我们来说才是重要的。

Here's what we care about.

这就是我们关心的。

We're going to design in service of these things.

我们的设计将为这些东西服务。

And here are the things that aren't that important.

以下是一些不太重要的事情。

And again, those are the types of places in a product requirements doc where people will argue the most, which is a good thing because you're basically discussing and debating sort of foundations of what you're going to build before you get into the work of building it.

再说一次，这些是产品需求文档中人们争论最多的地方，这是一件好事，因为在开始构建它的工作之前，您基本上是在讨论和辩论要构建的内容的基础。

And so those exercises are always a good idea.

所以这些练习总是一个好主意。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

I love that.

我喜欢那个。

Okay.

好的。

So going back, because I wanted to close this thread, you've come up with your vision, your mission, your strategy, your goals as a team.

回过头来，因为我想结束这个话题，你们已经提出了你们的愿景、你们的使命、你们的战略、你们作为一个团队的目标。

People start to align around it.

人们开始围绕它结盟。

What do you do to kick it off and get people on board and aware of the plan, and then to stay on plan with that strategy and not kind of be distracted by new priorities and shiny objects?

你会做什么来启动它，让人们参与并了解该计划，然后按照该策略坚持计划，而不是被新的优先事项和闪亮的物体分散注意力？

Nickey Skarstad: Yes.

尼基·斯卡斯塔：是的。

Oh, the shiny object thing is very real.

哦，闪亮的物体是非常真实的。

Good question.

好问题。

So for example, I just did this recently where I brought my team along through the OKR process for Q2 planning.

例如，我最近刚刚做了这件事，我带领我的团队完成了第二季度规划的 OKR 流程。

They had a say in basically what we decided we were going to work on.

他们基本上对我们决定要开展的工作有发言权。

It went up for leadership approval.

它得到了领导的批准。

We got approval.

我们得到了批准。

And my process was I used Loom, which is another one of my favorite products.

我的过程是使用 Loom，这是我最喜欢的产品之一。

It's just a really easy screen share and video recording tool that you can share with teams.

这只是一个非常简单的屏幕共享和视频录制工具，您可以与团队共享。

And so I just recapped, "All right, here's what I presented to leadership.

所以我只是回顾了一下，“好吧，这就是我向领导层介绍的内容。

Here are the feedback that we got.

以下是我们收到的反馈。

Here's the strategic feedback that we got.

这是我们收到的战略反馈。

And here are the changes we're going to make.

以下是我们要做的改变。

Any questions, let me know." And I posted it in Slack.

有任何问题请告诉我。”我把它发布在 Slack 上。

Nickey Skarstad: So I was just trying to keep the feedback loop really quick and tight with teams rather than wait till the next meeting you have with them a week later.

Nickey Skarstad：所以我只是想与团队保持快速而紧密的反馈循环，而不是等到一周后与他们举行的下一次会议。

I was like, all right, I'm going to just try to spend five minutes recording this and get it out ASAP.

我当时想，好吧，我会尝试花五分钟记录下来并尽快将其记录下来。

And that helps because then it gets people excited.

这很有帮助，因为这样会让人们兴奋。

Okay, cool.

好吧，酷。

This thing that I worked on got really great feedback from leadership, and now we're working on it.

我所做的这件事得到了领导层的非常好的反馈，现在我们正在努力。

I'm excited to get going.

我很高兴能出发。

Nickey Skarstad: And then it depends.

Nickey Skarstad：这要看情况。

Usually depending on the project, I have some sort of kickoff.

通常，根据项目的不同，我会进行某种启动。

I don't usually do a quarterly kickoff or anything like that because I think there's usually disparate teams owning different parts of strategy.

我通常不会进行季度启动或类似的事情，因为我认为通常不同的团队拥有不同的战略部分。

But usually having a good weekly team meeting where you're really thoughtful about cascading feedback down from leadership, constantly checking in on what are we trying to do here?

但通常每周都会召开一次良好的团队会议，在会议上您会认真考虑领导层的级联反馈，不断检查我们在这里要做什么？

What is our strategy?

我们的策略是什么？

How are these goals that we set laddering up?

我们设定的这些目标是如何逐步实现的？

Are we achieving it?

我们实现了吗？

Are we not?

我们不是吗？

Whatever.

任何。

Having a meeting like that where you're kind of constantly talking about it each week also helps people feel bought in and not get distracted.

召开这样的会议，每周不断地讨论这个问题，也可以帮助人们感到被接受，而不会分心。

Nickey Skarstad: And actually I found that teams who are very bought to your vision and strategy are less distractable.

Nickey Skarstad：实际上我发现那些非常认同你的愿景和战略的团队不会那么分心。

Where I usually have more trouble is with leadership that aren't necessarily in the weeds with your team every day.

我通常遇到更多麻烦的是领导力，而领导力不一定每天都在你的团队的杂草中。

And I'll get an idea.

我会想到一个主意。

"Have you thought about doing this one random obscure thing?" "Yes.

“你有没有想过做一件随机的晦涩难懂的事情？” “是的。

However, it's not in service of this long term plan, so we don't want to do that right now because we don't think it's the best use of our time."

然而，它不符合这个长期计划，所以我们现在不想这样做，因为我们认为这不是最好地利用我们的时间。”

Lenny: Got it.

莱尼：明白了。

And the way you're describing it, this is as a manager of product managers-

按照你的描述，这是作为产品经理的经理-

Lenny: ...

莱尼：……

versus an ICPM?

与 ICPM 相比？

Cool.

凉爽的。

So as an ICPM, I imagine you would do a quarterly kickoff, or whatever your cycle length.

因此，作为 ICPM，我想您会每季度启动一次，或者无论您的周期长度如何。

You kick off with the team.

你和团队一起开始。

Here's what we're doing.

这就是我们正在做的事情。

Any questions?

有疑问吗？

Lenny: Okay.

莱尼：好的。

Another thing I wanted to make sure we have time to chat about is product review meetings and process.

我想确保我们有时间讨论的另一件事是产品审查会议和流程。

Just kind of like how do you, as a product leader, make sure that you're shipping great stuff that you're proud of and that your leaders aren't surprised by?

就像作为产品领导者，你如何确保你交付的产品是令你引以为豪、并且你的领导者不会感到惊讶的？

How do you design just a product review and design process.

您如何设计产品审查和设计流程。

Nickey Skarstad: Yeah.

尼基·斯卡斯塔：是的。

So I have a lot of strong feelings on product reviews.

所以我对产品评论有很多强烈的感受。

And it's because I've been in a lot of different organizations and I've seen a lot of bad ways of doing this honestly.

这是因为我曾在很多不同的组织工作过，而且我见过很多诚实地这样做的糟糕方法。

And I think it also depends on the product that you're building and the team that you've created.

我认为这还取决于您正在构建的产品和您创建的团队。

So I don't think that there's one right or wrong way to do this.

所以我认为这样做没有正确或错误的方法。

Nickey Skarstad: Where I've seen them fail is when they happen at the function level, and they're not done or shared as a team.

Nickey Skarstad：我看到它们失败的地方是它们发生在功能层面，并且没有作为一个团队完成或共享。

Typically it's normal to have a design review or to have some sort of technical review.

通常进行设计审查或某种技术审查是很正常的。

And the more you can try to bring those different review processes into one central moment to check in, the better it tends to go.

你越是尝试将这些不同的审核流程集中到一个中心进行检查，事情就会进展得越好。

Because what happens is you'll have feedback in a vacuum.

因为发生的情况是你会在真空中得到反馈。

The design leader will give the designer feedback, and then you don't hear about it.

设计负责人会给设计师反馈，然后你就听不到了。

Or there'll be some technical flaw that happens in a very specific technical review that doesn't get back to the larger team.

或者，在非常具体的技术审查中会出现一些技术缺陷，而这些缺陷不会返回到更大的团队。

Nickey Skarstad: So finding ways to make sure that those parts of your process are shared across each function, and you attend them and prepare for them as a team, I think really helps a lot of that.

Nickey Skarstad：因此，想方设法确保流程的这些部分在每个职能部门之间共享，并且您作为一个团队参加这些部分并为它们做好准备，我认为这确实有很大帮助。

I'm not saying that you shouldn't have a design review.

我并不是说您不应该进行设计审查。

Of course you should.

当然你应该。

I mean, you should just be really thoughtful about having moments, especially if there are moments where you're blessing something to move forward, to making sure the whole team is there.

我的意思是，你应该真正考虑一下有哪些时刻，特别是当你祝福某些事情能够向前发展时，以确保整个团队都在那里。

And that there's a very strategic check-in process to get those things approved that everyone knows about and is a part of.

并且有一个非常战略性的检查流程来让每个人都知道并参与其中的事情得到批准。

Lenny: Is that a meeting that you do weekly and you invite the designer and the engineer?

莱尼：这是你们每周都会邀请设计师和工程师的会议吗？

Who do you invite, I guess, and what is the goal of that meeting?

我猜你会邀请谁？这次会议的目标是什么？

The goal of that meeting, I imagine, is approved the product to go launch and build.

我想，这次会议的目标是批准产品的发布和构建。

Nickey Skarstad: Yeah.

尼基·斯卡斯塔：是的。

And I think especially going back to the one way, two way door moment, giving teams autonomy to ship some things that you think are two way doors and aren't necessarily mission critical are important to your vision, but aren't going to conflate with the larger system, I think trying to keep things quick and not have too many barriers for people to ship is incredibly important.

我认为特别是回到单向、双向门的时刻，给予团队自主权来交付一些你认为是双向门且不一定是关键任务的东西，这对你的愿景很重要，但不会与更大的系统混为一谈，我认为尝试保持事情的快速性并且不为人们的交付设置太多障碍是非常重要的。

So you'll have to figure that out for your own org and it's nuances, but that is something that is important.

因此，您必须为自己的组织弄清楚这一点，其中存在细微差别，但这很重要。

Nickey Skarstad: But when there are moments where you think it is basically a feedback gate, where it's a gate you need to walk through and a specific moment in time where you've gotten feedback, I think having a cross-functional meeting where there's a clear pre-read or something that's sent before.

Nickey Skarstad：但是，当你认为它基本上是一个反馈门的时候，你需要走过一个门，并且在你收到反馈的特定时刻，我认为召开一个跨职能会议，其中有一个明确的预读或之前发送的内容。

It's like, here's what we're talking about today.

就像，这就是我们今天谈论的内容。

And then aligning on, do we think this meets our goals and does this meet our quality bar?

然后，我们认为这是否符合我们的目标，是否符合我们的质量标准？

And doing that in a really thoughtful way just so the team gets feedback.

并且以一种非常深思熟虑的方式做到这一点，以便团队获得反馈。

So the leadership is plugged in, but also so you're not standing the way of people shipping their products.

因此，领导层已介入，但同时您也不会妨碍人们运输产品。

Lenny: And then do you check in throughout the process of the product being built, or do you kind of encourage teams to get to a point where it's basically ready for approval?

Lenny：然后你会在产品构建的整个过程中进行检查，还是鼓励团队达到基本上准备好批准的程度？

Nickey Skarstad: Yeah.

尼基·斯卡斯塔：是的。

Ideally in a perfect world, there's three check-in moments.

理想情况下，在完美的世界中，存在三个登记时刻。

There is the first principles check-in.

办理登机手续是首要原则。

What are you trying to build, or what are you trying to do?

你想构建什么，或者你想做什么？

What are the sort of foundations that you're going to build on?

您要建立什么样的基础？

What is the most important thing?

最重要的是什么？

What are you solving for?

你要解决什么问题？

Getting approval on that, weirdly, is almost the most important thing.

奇怪的是，获得批准几乎是最重要的事情。

Because it saves a lot of teams a lot of time when they get later in their feedback review process and people are like, "You're not solving for the right thing." So that's important.

因为这可以为很多团队节省大量时间，当他们进入反馈审核流程时，人们会说，“你没有解决正确的问题。”所以这很重要。

Nickey Skarstad: Once you've aligned on that, then it's like, all right, what approach are we going to use?

Nickey Skarstad：一旦你对此达成一致，那么我们将使用什么方法？

What are we going to build?

我们要建造什么？

And that's sort of how we solve the problem.

这就是我们解决问题的方式。

Making sure that there is a technical component there too so there's some sort of infrastructure review or architecture review, or whatever you want to call it.

确保那里也有一个技术组件，以便进行某种基础设施审查或架构审查，或者任何你想称之为的东西。

And then it's like, all right, this is ready to ship.

然后就好像，好吧，这已经准备好发货了。

Let's check in again.

我们再检查一下。

Do we think it's ready?

我们认为它准备好了吗？

And I think that, again, it depends on your organization.

我认为，这又取决于您的组织。

If you have a very small team, you might be very plugged in and these things might not need to happen.

如果你的团队很小，你可能会非常投入，这些事情可能不需要发生。

But in bigger organizations, especially where leadership isn't always able to be in the room, making sure that you have a clear checking in a few times to make sure that everyone is moving in the right direction and everyone feels good is, I think, a worthwhile exercise.

但在较大的组织中，特别是在领导层并不总是能够在场的情况下，确保进行几次明确的检查以确保每个人都朝着正确的方向前进并且每个人都感觉良好，我认为这是一项值得的练习。

Lenny: I love that.

莱尼：我喜欢这个。

Such a simple framework.

这么简单的框架。

And then one last question along those lines, do you leave it up to the team to schedule these meetings, or are you pulling it out of them and making sure they schedule it?

接下来的最后一个问题是，您是让团队来安排这些会议，还是您将其从团队中抽出来并确保他们安排会议？

Nickey Skarstad: Today, because the team that I'm working on is pretty small, and we're pretty pre-product market fit, we're not doing a ton of very formal check-in moments because we don't need to be.

Nickey Skarstad：今天，因为我正在工作的团队相当小，而且我们非常适合产品前的市场，所以我们不会进行大量非常正式的签到时刻，因为我们不需要这样做。

Because it's a small team and we're all cruising together.

因为这是一个小团队，我们都在一起巡航。

But in bigger orgs that I've worked in, for Shopify, for example, there was a process around having these meetings and who would be there.

但在我工作过的较大组织中，例如 Shopify，有一个围绕召开这些会议以及谁将参加会议的流程。

And so those would kind of be scheduled through the larger processor system that they were working in, which really worked for them actually.

因此，这些任务可以通过他们正在使用的更大的处理器系统来安排，这实际上对他们来说确实有效。

And I think it allowed teams to be pretty autonomous on the day to day, but just making sure that there was feedback coming of from their users as well as from leadership.

我认为这让团队在日常工作中能够相当自主，但只是确保有来自用户和领导层的反馈。

Lenny: Got it.

莱尼：明白了。

One last question before we get to our exciting lightning round.

在我们进入激动人心的闪电回合之前，还有最后一个问题。

And it's something that I've been thinking a lot about recently, which is around remote work as a product manager.

这是我最近一直在思考的事情，与作为产品经理的远程工作有关。

I left Airbnb before COVID, and so I never lived in this world of everything is remote and product managing remotely.

我在新冠疫情爆发之前离开了 Airbnb，所以我从来没有生活在这个一切都是远程的、产品远程管理的世界里。

Is there anything you've picked up or learned that has been really helpful to being a product leader in a remote world?

您学到或学到的东西是否对成为远程世界的产品领导者真正有帮助？

Nickey Skarstad: Yeah.

尼基·斯卡斯塔：是的。

I would say last couple years have just been a huge shift in my ways of working.

我想说，过去几年我的工作方式发生了巨大转变。

I sort of grew up as a PM in IRL environments where we did the majority of our work together in the same room.

我是在现实环境中作为产品经理长大的，我们的大部分工作都是在同一个房间里完成的。

So that was whiteboarding, having a quick sync after you had an in person meeting to finalize some details or keep hashing out a problem.

这就是白板，在面对面会议后进行快速同步，以敲定一些细节或继续解决问题。

It's so cheesy and overhyped, but the proverbial water cooler moment where you see somebody, and you're like, "Hey, how are you doing, Hey, did you hear about this thing?" All of those things literally went away overnight.

这太俗气了，也被夸大了，但众所周知的饮水机时刻，你看到某人，你会说，“嘿，你好吗，嘿，你听说这件事了吗？”所有这些事情一夜之间就消失了。

Nickey Skarstad: And I think especially the job of a PM, it's hard under normal times because you are doing so much labor to make sure people are informed and give feedback, et cetera.

Nickey Skarstad：我认为，特别是产品经理的工作，在正常情况下很难，因为你要付出大量的努力来确保人们了解情况并提供反馈等等。

And then overnight you took away a lot of the methods that they were using to do it.

然后一夜之间你就拿走了他们用来做这件事的很多方法。

And so I think that has been a pretty profound shift for a lot of people working in product roles.

因此，我认为对于许多从事产品工作的人来说，这是一个相当深远的转变。

Nickey Skarstad: The good news is there's a ton of new tools and new technology that's actually being built right now that's majorly helpful for this.

Nickey Skarstad：好消息是，目前正在构建大量新工具和新技术，这对此非常有帮助。

So I use Slack in very new ways today than I did two years ago.

因此，与两年前相比，我今天使用 Slack 的方式非常新。

Things like just making sure to post more asynchronous updates.

诸如确保发布更多异步更新之类的事情。

Trying to actually take the burden off of an IRL or a Zoom meeting.

尝试真正减轻 IRL 或 Zoom 会议的负担。

Can we talk about this asynchronously and do it in Slack?

我们可以异步讨论这个问题并在 Slack 中进行吗？

Slack has this really great feature called huddles where you can just quickly get on.

Slack 有一个非常棒的功能，称为“Huddle”，您可以在其中快速加入。

It's just audio.

这只是音频。

So there's no video.

所以没有视频。

And you can just have a 30 second conversation.

你们可以进行 30 秒的对话。

It's good for standups and things like that.

这对于站立会议和类似的事情很有好处。

Suggest you try it if you haven't yet.

如果你还没有的话建议你尝试一下。

Nickey Skarstad: And then a lot of the old in person whiteboarding, things like that, you can do those now using awesome tools like Miro and FigJam.

Nickey Skarstad：还有很多旧的面对面白板之类的事情，你现在可以使用 Miro 和 FigJam 等出色的工具来完成这些工作。

And I feel like, especially at Airbnb, we had such an international team that there was always somebody who was remote typically.

我觉得，尤其是在 Airbnb，我们拥有一支如此国际化的团队，所以总有一些人通常处于远程办公状态。

And I think we never really got the remote experience right.

我认为我们从未真正获得正确的远程体验。

And now that the majority of our teams are remote, I'm a fully remote person, I've been a lot more thoughtful about making sure we're creating a really good experience of how we're working for the larger team.

现在我们的大多数团队都是远程的，我是一个完全远程的人，我更加深思熟虑地确保我们为更大的团队创造了真正良好的工作体验。

And so I think you have to hack on this with your team.

所以我认为你必须和你的团队一起解决这个问题。

Different teams have different ways of working, but trying to be a synchronous, using Slack, making sure you're following up in very visible ways where people can see.

不同的团队有不同的工作方式，但尝试使用 Slack 保持同步，确保以人们可以看到的非常明显的方式进行跟进。

Don't rely on Zoom meetings to fill all of your time.

不要依赖 Zoom 会议来填补您的所有时间。

Otherwise people will literally hate you.

否则人们真的会恨你。

And things like that really make a huge difference.

类似的事情确实会产生巨大的影响。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

Super helpful.

超级有帮助。

All right.

好的。

Nickey, are you ready for the lightning round?

尼基，你准备好参加闪电回合了吗？

Lenny: What's a book that you recommend most to other product managers?

Lenny：您最向其他产品经理推荐的一本书是什么？

Nickey Skarstad: I love Thinking in Systems by Donella Meadows.

Nickey Skarstad：我喜欢 Donella Meadows 的《系统思考》。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

Okay.

好的。

We're going to link to that in the description.

我们将在描述中链接到该内容。

Other than Duolingo, what's another company that you recommend the PMs go work at or explore when they're looking for a new gig?

除了 Duolingo 之外，您推荐产品经理在寻找新工作时去工作或探索的另一家公司是哪家？

Nickey Skarstad: Yeah, I would say Etsy hands down.

Nickey Skarstad：是的，我会说 Etsy 毫无疑问。

Nickey Skarstad: I think it's a great place to learn how to be a PM.

Nickey Skarstad：我认为这是学习如何成为一名产品经理的好地方。

Data driven, really supportive, product leadership, and a super fun product to build.

数据驱动、真正的支持、产品领导力以及构建超级有趣的产品。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

Love that.

喜欢那个。

What's the current favorite kind of app or piece of software that helps you do your work better?

当前最喜欢的可以帮助您更好地完成工作的应用程序或软件是什么？

Nickey Skarstad: I'm obsessed with Superhuman, which is a email productivity app, which once you start using it, you can't not use it.

Nickey Skarstad：我对 Super human 很着迷，这是一款电子邮件生产力应用程序，一旦你开始使用它，你就无法不使用它。

You basically have to use it for the rest of your days.

您基本上必须在余下的日子里使用它。

I also am obsessed with Loom, which is a video recording tool that makes it really easy to share really quick video updates.

我还对 Loom 很着迷，它是一个视频录制工具，可以让分享非常快速的视频更新变得非常容易。

Lenny: Awesome, great choices.

莱尼：太棒了，很棒的选择。

And then outside of work, what's a current favorite app or just piece of software that you love?

那么在工作之余，您当前最喜欢的应用程序或只是您喜欢的软件是什么？

Nickey Skarstad: Definitely TikTok.

Nickey Skarstad：肯定是 TikTok。

Short form video is very fun and entertaining.

短视频非常有趣且有趣。

Can't get enough of it, and have been creating some myself.

无法获得足够的东西，并且一直在自己创造一些。

So I'm definitely hooked.

所以我绝对着迷了。

Lenny: While we're on that topic, how do people find you on TikTok?

Lenny：当我们讨论这个话题时，人们如何在 TikTok 上找到你？

Nickey Skarstad: Yeah, it's just my name.

Nickey Skarstad：是的，这只是我的名字。

It's Nickey Skarstad, and give me a follow.

我是 Nickey Skarstad，请关注我。

Lenny: I'm a very happy follower.

莱尼：我是一个非常快乐的追随者。

And then I'll link to that in description too.

然后我也会在描述中链接到该内容。

Who's a favorite person that you like to follow on either Twitter, or Instagram, or even TikTok?

您最喜欢在 Twitter、Instagram、甚至 TikTok 上关注的人是谁？

Nickey Skarstad: Yeah, so I love, she is a cultural journalist, her name is Anne Helen Petersen.

Nickey Skarstad：是的，所以我喜欢她，她是一位文化记者，她的名字叫安妮·海伦·彼得森。

And she's really plugged into sort of the larger cultural zeitgeist of the time.

她确实融入了当时更大的文化时代精神。

And I always give people, when people ask me my top advice for new PMs, it's just to be a consumer.

当人们问我对新产品经理的首要建议时，我总是告诉人们，我只是做一个消费者。

To download new products, to try them out, to use all the things and try them because I think it actually makes you a better product builder.

下载新产品，尝试它们，使用所有东西并尝试它们，因为我认为这实际上会让你成为更好的产品构建者。

And follow people that are not just tech people on Twitter.

在 Twitter 上关注的不仅仅是技术人员。

You are doing yourself a disservice if your entire feed is tech people.

如果你的全部内容都是技术人员，那么你就是在伤害自己。

So find people that are plugged into cultural zeitgeist because it helps you also understand the moment in which you are shipping, and it'll make sure that you're acing your product marketing and your messaging and you're building the right thing.

因此，找到那些融入文化时代精神的人，因为它还可以帮助你了解你正在发货的时刻，并且它将确保你在产品营销和信息传递方面表现出色，并且你正在构建正确的东西。

Nickey Skarstad: Her name is Anne Helen Petersen.

尼基·斯卡斯塔：她的名字是安妮·海伦·彼得森。

Lenny: Anne Helen Petersen.

莱尼：安妮·海伦·彼得森。

Love it.

爱它。

Okay.

好的。

And then final question.

然后是最后一个问题。

Who's been your favorite manager?

谁是你最喜欢的经理？

Nickey Skarstad: Yeah, so I couldn't pick one person here, so don't be mad.

Nickey Skarstad：是的，所以我无法在这里挑选一个人，所以不要生气。

But it's actually a lot of women that I worked for at Etsy.

但实际上，我在 Etsy 为很多女性工作过。

The majority of my entire reporting line the time that I was there was all women, which has never happened to me again.

当我在那里的时候，我整个汇报路线的大部分都是女性，这种情况再也没有发生在我身上。

So shout out to Kruti Patel, who is their current chief product officer, a woman named Heather Jassy, who ran the community team at Etsy long ago, who was a true delight to work for.

因此，要向 Kruti Patel 大声喊叫，她是他们现任的首席产品官，一位名叫 Heather Jassy 的女士，她很久以前负责 Etsy 的社区团队，为她工作真是令人愉快。

And then Linda Findley, who is now the CEO of Blue Apron, but she was the chief operating officer at my time at Etsy.

然后是 Linda Findley，她现在是 Blue Apron 的首席执行官，但她是我在 Etsy 时的首席运营官。

And she was my boss for a bit.

她曾经是我的老板。

And she was wonderful.

她很棒。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

Thank you for sharing all that.

感谢您分享这一切。

And thank you so much for joining me, Nickey, for doing this.

非常感谢你和我一起做这件事，尼基。

Where can people find you online?

人们在哪里可以在线找到您？

And then just generally, how can people that are listening to this be helpful to you?

那么一般来说，听这个的人对你有什么帮助呢？

Nickey Skarstad: Yeah, so I have newly become obsessed with TikTok, like I said before.

Nickey Skarstad：是的，所以我最近对 ​​TikTok 着迷了，就像我之前说的。

I've been creating some fun, little short form videos.

我一直在制作一些有趣的小短片。

One of my regrets as a long time product builder is it's very time consuming to write down the stories of building products and to share them.

作为一名长期的产品构建者，我的遗憾之一是写下构建产品的故事并分享它们非常耗时。

But I found TikTok actually really easy to do that.

但我发现 TikTok 实际上很容易做到这一点。

So I'm going to try to experiment there a little bit more.

所以我将尝试在那里进行更多实验。

Nickey Skarstad: So you can follow me, I'm @NickeySkarstad on TikTok.

Nickey Skarstad：所以你可以关注我，我是 TikTok 上的@NickeySkarstad。

And then I have a newsletter.

然后我有一份时事通讯。

I call it Builders.

我称之为建设者。

It's nickey.substack.com.

这是 nickey.substack.com。

Nickey is spelled like Mickey Mouse, but with an N.

Nickey 的拼写类似于 Mickey Mouse，但带有 N。

N-I-C-K-E-Y, .substack.com.

N-I-C-K-E-Y，.substack.com。

And I publish their occasionally.

我偶尔也会发布它们。

I need to get it going again.

我需要重新开始。

But again, trying to write down more of the stories of actually being a builder who's been doing this for a long time.

但再次尝试写下更多实际上是一名长期从事此工作的建筑商的故事。

Because a lot of us don't have a lot of time to actually talk about it, but it's really interesting work and I want to share it more.

因为我们很多人没有太多时间来真正谈论它，但这确实是一项有趣的工作，我想更多地分享它。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

I'm a follower and a subscriber to both.

我是两者的关注者和订阅者。

So highly recommend that.

所以强烈推荐。

Lenny: And thank you so much, Nickey.

莱尼：非常感谢你，尼基。

Lenny: That was awesome.

莱尼：那太棒了。

Thank you for listening.

感谢您的聆听。

If you enjoy the chat, don't forget to subscribe to the podcast.

如果您喜欢聊天，请不要忘记订阅播客。

You could also learn more at lennyspodcast.com.

您还可以访问 lennyspodcast.com 了解更多信息。

I'll see you in the next episode.

我们下一集见。