Meta’s head of product on working with Mark Zuckerberg, early growth tactics, and more | Naomi Gleit
Naomi Gleit: I really believe in frameworks for things that helps drive extreme clarity.
Naomi Gleit：我真的相信框架有助于提高清晰度。
I work on a lot of different projects.
我从事很多不同的项目。
A lot of times I'm ramping up a new project, I'm like, "Where can I learn what I need to learn about this project?" I ask five different people, get five different answers.
很多时候，当我启动一个新项目时，我会想，“我在哪里可以学到有关这个项目的知识？”我问五个不同的人，得到五个不同的答案。
That is unacceptable.
这是不可接受的。
Of course, I'm sure there's hundreds of docs associated with the project, but there needs to be one canonical doc.
当然，我确信有数百个文档与该项目相关，但需要有一个规范文档。
Everyone should know exactly where the canonical doc is.
每个人都应该确切地知道规范文档在哪里。
That's the one place I can go to get all the information I need about a project and it will link to all the other docs, things on the canonical doc are.
这是我可以获取有关项目所需的所有信息的地方，它将链接到所有其他文档，即规范文档上的内容。
Lenny Rachitsky: Today my guest is Naomi Gleit.
Lenny Rachitsky：今天我的客人是 Naomi Gleit。
Naomi is head of product at Meta.
Naomi 是 Meta 的产品主管。
Other than Mark Zuckerberg, she's the longest-serving executive at Meta.
除了马克·扎克伯格之外，她是 Meta 任职时间最长的高管。
She joined what was then called Facebook as employee number 29 and has been at Meta for almost 20 years.
她以第 29 号员工的身份加入了当时称为 Facebook 的公司，并在 Meta 工作了近 20 年。
She's seen the company scale from 30 employees to the one and a half trillion dollar business that it is today.
她见证了公司从 30 名员工发展到今天的 15 万亿美元业务。
Naomi does very few podcasts and interviews and so I was really excited to chat with her and have her on this podcast.
内奥米很少做播客和采访，所以我很高兴能与她聊天并让她参加这个播客。
In our conversation, we dig into the many lessons that she learned from Facebook's early and legendary growth team, her superpower of taking really complex and gnarly problems and projects, simplifying them and delivering results.
在我们的谈话中，我们深入探讨了她从 Facebook 早期传奇增长团队中学到的许多经验教训，以及她处理真正复杂和棘手的问题和项目、简化它们并交付结果的超能力。
We also get into leadership lessons she's learned from Zuck, including his recent transformation into possibly the coolest CEO in tech.
我们还了解了她从扎克身上学到的领导力课程，包括他最近转变为可能是科技界最酷的首席执行官。
Also, why PMs are the conductor of product teams, some very tactical tips for running meetings, writing docs, working out, getting better sleep, and even how to get more protein in your diet.
此外，为什么产品经理是产品团队的指挥，一些非常战术性的技巧，涉及召开会议、撰写文档、锻炼、改善睡眠，甚至如何从饮食中获取更多蛋白质。
Lenny Rachitsky: This was such a fun conversation and such a wide-ranging conversation and whether you are in product or growth or any other tech function, you will get something useful out of this conversation.
Lenny Rachitsky：这是一次非常有趣、范围广泛的对话，无论您是从事产品、增长还是任何其他技术职能部门，您都会从这次对话中得到一些有用的东西。
If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube.
如果您喜欢这个播客，请不要忘记订阅并在您最喜欢的播客应用程序或 YouTube 中关注它。
It's the best way to avoid missing future episodes and helps the podcast tremendously.
这是避免错过未来剧集的最佳方式，并且对播客有很大帮助。
With that, I bring you Naomi Gleit.
接下来，我为您带来 Naomi Gleit。
Lenny Rachitsky: Naomi, thank you so much for being here.
Lenny Rachitsky：Naomi，非常感谢你来到这里。
Welcome to the podcast.
欢迎来到播客。
Naomi Gleit: Thanks so much for having me.
Naomi Gleit：非常感谢您邀请我。
As I told you earlier, I refer your podcast all the time and so I can't believe I have the opportunity to actually talk on it.
正如我之前告诉你的，我一直参考你的播客，所以我不敢相信我有机会真正谈论它。
Lenny Rachitsky: Wow, I'm so flattered.
Lenny Rachitsky：哇，我太受宠若惊了。
I never get tired of hearing that.
我永远不会厌倦听到这个。
Appreciate you sharing that.
感谢您分享这一点。
I want to share a couple of tidbits about you because it's pretty crazy when you see this list.
我想分享一些关于你的花絮，因为当你看到这个列表时，你会感到非常疯狂。
Okay, so you are Meta's longest serving executive other than Mark Zuckerberg.
好吧，你是除马克·扎克伯格之外在 Meta 任职时间最长的高管。
You're employee number 29 at Facebook.
您是 Facebook 的 29 号员工。
You've been there for over 19 years.
您已经在那里工作了 19 年多了。
Sorry, at Meta, formerly Facebook.
抱歉，在 Meta，以前是 Facebook。
Naomi Gleit: I do that all the time.
Naomi Gleit：我一直这样做。
That's what happens when you've been at Meta for 19 years is you can't get the name right.
当你在 Meta 工作 19 年时，就会发生这样的情况：你无法正确命名。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, good.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的，很好。
I won't feel bad about that Then and then the last thing is just you've been at the center of some of the most foundational products that Meta and Facebook have worked on, including working on the early growth team and thinking about the early growth strategy.
我不会对此感到难过然后最后一件事是你一直处于 Meta 和 Facebook 开发的一些最基本产品的中心，包括在早期增长团队中工作并思考早期增长策略。
Basically you've been there from employee number 30 to today, a one and a half trillion dollars company, one of the largest companies in the world today.
基本上，你从第 30 名员工一直到今天，这是一家价值 15 万亿美元的公司，是当今世界上最大的公司之一。
Very few people have ever seen this sort of growth and scale from the inside.
很少有人从内部看到过这种增长和规模。
Lenny Rachitsky: First of all, I guess let me just ask this, do you ever reflect on this and just realize like, "Holy shit, what a journey I've been on.
Lenny Rachitsky：首先，我想让我问这个问题，你有没有反思过这个问题，然后意识到，“天哪，我经历了一段多么漫长的旅程。
How wild."?
多么狂野。”？
Naomi Gleit: It is a great question.
内奥米·格莱特：这是一个很好的问题。
I would love to say that I reflect on it.
我想说我对此进行了反思。
The truth is I think I barely have time to reflect right now.
事实上，我想我现在几乎没有时间反思。
I'm thinking about all the things that I need to do on my to-do list, so I'm pretty in it still.
我正在考虑待办事项清单上需要做的所有事情，所以我仍然很投入。
Even after 19 years, I am really focused on the work that I need to do.
即使已经过去 19 年，我仍然专注于我需要做的工作。
I do honestly have moments where I get to reflect.
老实说，我确实有反思的时刻。
For example, on this podcast.
例如，在此播客上。
Sometimes people do ask me and I think especially as I approach the twenty-year milestone, my twenty-year Faceversary, I'm sure that will give ample opportunity for me to look back.
有时人们确实会问我，我想，特别是当我接近二十年的里程碑时，我的二十年纪念日，我相信这会给我足够的机会回顾过去。
Lenny Rachitsky: Such a classic product manager answer.
Lenny Rachitsky：这是产品经理的经典回答。
I have too much to do-
我还有太多事要做——
Lenny Rachitsky: I have to think about this.
Lenny Rachitsky：我必须考虑这个问题。
Yeah, I got to hit some goals here.
是的，我必须在这里实现一些目标。
Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by Pendo, the only all-in-one product experience platform for any type of application.
Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 Pendo 为您带来，Pendo 是唯一适用于任何类型应用程序的一体化产品体验平台。
Tired of bouncing around multiple tools to uncover what's really happening inside your product?
厌倦了使用多种工具来揭示产品内部到底发生了什么？
With all the tools you need in one simple-to-use platform, Pendo makes it easy to answer critical questions about how users are engaging with your product and then turn those insights into action, all so you can get your users to do what you actually want them to do.
通过在一个简单易用的平台中提供您所需的所有工具，Pendo 可以轻松回答有关用户如何与您的产品互动的关键问题，然后将这些见解转化为行动，这样您就可以让您的用户做您真正希望他们做的事情。
Lenny Rachitsky: First, Pendo is built around product analytics, seeing what your users are actually doing in your apps so that you can optimize their experience.
Lenny Rachitsky：首先，Pendo 是围绕产品分析构建的，可以了解用户在应用程序中实际执行的操作，以便您可以优化他们的体验。
Next, Pendo lets you deploy in-app guides that lead users through the actions that matter most.
接下来，Pendo 允许您部署应用内指南，引导用户完成最重要的操作。
Then, Pendo integrates user feedback so that you can capture and analyze what people actually want.
然后，Pendo 集成用户反馈，以便您可以捕获和分析人们真正想要的东西。
And the new thing in Pendo, session replays, a very cool way to visualize user sessions.
Pendo 中的新功能是会话重播，这是一种非常酷的可视化用户会话的方式。
I'm not surprised at all that over 10,000 companies use it today.
如今有超过 10,000 家公司在使用它，我对此并不感到惊讶。
Visit Pendo.io/Lenny to create your free Pendo account today and start building better experiences across every corner of your product.
立即访问 Pendo.io/Lenny 创建免费 Pendo 帐户，并开始在产品的各个角落打造更好的体验。
Lenny Rachitsky: PS you want to take your product-led know-how a step further?
Lenny Rachitsky：另外，您想进一步提升以产品为主导的专业知识吗？
Check out Pendo's lineup of free certification courses led by top product experts and designed to help you grow and advance in your career.
查看 Pendo 的一系列免费认证课程，这些课程由顶级产品专家主导，旨在帮助您在职业生涯中成长和进步。
Learn more and experience the power of the Pendo platform today at Pendo.io/Lenny.
立即访问 Pendo.io/Lenny 了解更多信息并体验 Pendo 平台的强大功能。
Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by Vanta.
Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 Vanta 为您带来。
When it comes to ensuring your company has top-notch security practices, things get complicated fast.
当谈到确保您的公司拥有一流的安全实践时，事情很快就会变得复杂。
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现在，您可以使用单一平台 Vanta 评估风险、确保客户的信任并自动实现 SOC 2、ISO 27,001、HIPAA 等的合规性。
Vanta's market-leading trust management platform helps you continuously monitor compliance, alongside reporting and tracking risk.
Vanta 市场领先的信任管理平台可帮助您持续监控合规性，同时报告和跟踪风险。
Lenny Rachitsky: Plus, you can save hours by completing security questionnaires with Vanta AI.
Lenny Rachitsky：此外，您可以通过使用 Vanta AI 完成安全调查问卷来节省时间。
Join thousands of global companies that use Vanta to automate evidence collection, unify risk management, and streamline security reviews.
加入数千家使用 Vanta 自动化证据收集、统一风险管理和简化安全审查的全球公司行列。
Get $1,000 off Vanta when you go to Vanta.com/Lenny.
访问 Vanta.com/Lenny 即可享受 Vanta 立减 1,000 美元。
That's V-A-N-T-A.com/Lenny.
那是 V-A-N-T-A.com/Lenny。
Lenny Rachitsky: Let me start.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：让我开始吧。
I want to start by just how you actually landed at Meta as employee number 29, which is a life-changing decision and a life-changing role and I want to learn if there's something folks can see about what you did that might be helpful to them when they're trying to find a place to work and your story, I was reading about the story and it's super interesting.
我想从你是如何真正进入 Meta 担任 29 号员工开始，这是一个改变人生的决定和一个改变人生的角色，我想知道人们是否可以看到你所做的事情，当他们试图寻找工作地点时可能对他们有帮助，还有你的故事，我正在读这个故事，它非常有趣。
You basically wrote your senior thesis at Stanford about why Facebook was going to win and why it was going to beat its competitors and the competitors cited I've never even heard of, so it's interesting that that was the competitor at the time.
你基本上在斯坦福大学写了你的高级论文，内容是关于为什么 Facebook 会获胜，为什么它会击败它的竞争对手，以及我从未听说过的竞争对手，所以有趣的是，这就是当时的竞争对手。
Could you just share the story of how you landed as employee number 29 at Facebook, now Meta?
您能分享一下您是如何成为 Facebook（现为 Meta）第 29 号员工的故事吗？
Naomi Gleit: Facebook as part of being an academic, researching Facebook, also being a Stanford student using Facebook.
Naomi Gleit：Facebook 作为学者的一部分，研究 Facebook，同时也是使用 Facebook 的斯坦福大学学生。
I was like, "I really want to work here." Facebook had just moved to Palo Alto.
我当时想，“我真的很想在这里工作。” Facebook 刚刚搬到帕洛阿尔托。
Mark had driven across country I guess, and arrived in Palo.
我猜马克开车穿越了整个国家，到达了帕洛。
Alto opened up an office at 443 Emerson Avenue or Emerson Street.
Alto 在艾默生大道或艾默生街 443 号开设了办事处。
It was right above the Jing Jing's Chinese restaurant in downtown Palo Alto and I just went to the office sort of cold called the equivalent of just walking into the office and seeing if there were any available jobs.
它就在帕洛阿尔托市中心的晶晶中餐馆楼上，我只是去了办公室，有点冷，相当于走进办公室看看是否有空缺的工作。
There were not.
没有。
I think I did that maybe five to 10 more times.
我想我可能又这样做了五到十次。
Naomi Gleit: Eventually, there was an opening to interview for Sean Parker's personal assistant.
内奥米·格雷特：最终，肖恩·帕克的私人助理得到了采访机会。
He was at the time I think the president.
我认为他当时是总统。
I did interview and I did not get the job.
我参加了面试，但没有得到这份工作。
A few months later I found out about a marketing role that was available.
几个月后，我发现有一个营销职位空缺。
And one interesting thing I haven't really talked about was I got an offer from Facebook.
一件我没有真正谈论过的有趣的事情是我收到了 Facebook 的录用通知。
I also got a competing offer from LinkedIn, and so at that time I made the choice to go to Facebook because I was interested in the social networking aspect of it.
我还收到了LinkedIn的竞争性offer，所以当时我选择去Facebook，因为我对它的社交网络方面很感兴趣。
Why was I so bullish on this website at the time it was www.thefacebook.com.
为什么我当时对这个网站如此看好，它是 www.thefacebook.com。
Why was I so excited about this thing?
为什么我对这件事如此兴奋？
Naomi Gleit: I think it's because I definitely saw that there was product market fit.
Naomi Gleit：我认为这是因为我确实看到了产品的市场契合度。
I saw that students at Stanford were obsessed with it, but it also had a long list of colleges that were really excited and on the waiting list to be accepted onto Facebook, and so there was this product market fit piece and also a huge demand from other audiences, other colleges, but our younger brothers and sisters were also sort of interested about Facebook and it seemed like it had this much broader appeal.
我看到斯坦福大学的学生对它很着迷，但它也有一长串大学非常兴奋，并且在等待被 Facebook 接受的名单上，所以有这个产品适合市场，也有来自其他受众、其他大学的巨大需求，但我们的弟弟妹妹也对 Facebook 感兴趣，看起来它有更广泛的吸引力。
So that's what happened.
这就是发生的事情。
I got the marketing job.
我得到了营销工作。
Cheryl also talks about when you are on getting a rocket ship, don't ask what seat.
谢丽尔还谈到，当你乘坐火箭飞船时，不要问什么座位。
That was my foot in the door and here we are 19 years later.
我就这样迈出了第一步，19 年后我们又来到了这里。
Lenny Rachitsky: I was just going to say that that's such a good example of what she recommends of if you can get a seat on a rocket ship, don't ask which seat.
Lenny Rachitsky：我只是想说，这是她推荐的一个很好的例子，如果你能在火箭飞船上找到一个座位，不要问哪个座位。
And I love the Sean Parker piece.
我喜欢肖恩·帕克的作品。
I did not know that.
我不知道。
That's hilarious.
太搞笑了。
What a different life would've been if you got that job and went down that track.
如果你得到那份工作并走上这条路，生活将会多么不同。
Lenny Rachitsky: So a couple of takeaways here for people that are trying to pick where to work, what I love about your story is one is you just had so much.
Lenny Rachitsky：对于那些正在选择工作地点的人来说，这里有几点要点，我喜欢你的故事的一点是，你经历了太多。
You just had confidence that this business would work and you just knew that you wanted to get on this rocket ship.
你只是相信这项业务会成功，而且你只是知道你想登上这艘火箭飞船。
You saw attraction.
你看到了吸引力。
So that told you I guess that added to this confidence that this was going to work out.
所以这告诉你，我想这增加了人们对这将会成功的信心。
And then you said that you walked into the office kind of cold, not even cold emailing or calling, but cold arriving.
然后你说你走进办公室时有点冷漠，甚至不是冷漠地发电子邮件或打电话，而是冷漠地到达。
Five to 10 times you said?
你说五到十倍？
Naomi Gleit: Yeah, it was pure just refusing to quit.
Naomi Gleit：是的，纯粹就是拒绝戒烟。
I think I just walked into the office, I talked to the person at the front desk, "Is there anything that I can do?" They weren't hiring non-technical people.
我想我刚走进办公室，就对前台的人说：“有什么可以帮我做的吗？”他们不雇用非技术人员。
I didn't have a computer science degree.
我没有计算机科学学位。
I wasn't technical.
我本来就不是技术人员
I had this bachelor of arts degree and that's why the personal assistant in the marketing role eventually did open and was something that I thought I could be qualified for.
我拥有文学学士学位，这就是为什么营销职位的私人助理最终空缺的原因，我认为我有资格担任这个职位。
Lenny Rachitsky: Cool.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：酷。
I think that's such an empowering lesson of if you look at someone like you and they're like, "Oh, she was so early at Facebook, how lucky," clearly wasn't luck.
我认为这是一个非常有力量的教训，如果你看着像你这样的人，他们会说，“哦，她很早就加入 Facebook，多么幸运，”显然不是运气。
You knew you wanted to work at this company.
你知道你想在这家公司工作。
You put a lot of effort into making it happen no matter the job.
无论从事什么工作，你都会付出很多努力来实现这一目标。
I think that's a really good takeaway and lesson.
我认为这是一个很好的收获和教训。
So if there's a company today that you are excited about that you're just like, "This is going to be a massive success," what I'm hearing is just do everything you can to try to land a job there and eventually you'll be in a role you actually want.
因此，如果今天有一家公司让你感到兴奋，你会说“这将是一个巨大的成功”，我听到的是尽你所能尝试在那里找到一份工作，最终你会担任你真正想要的角色。
It doesn't have to start there.
它不必从那里开始。
Naomi Gleit: When I got to Facebook, I knew I wanted to build.
Naomi Gleit：当我加入 Facebook 时，我知道我想要打造。
As someone who wasn't really technical, I wasn't going to be an engineer or a coder.
作为一个不懂技术的人，我不会成为一名工程师或程序员。
I wanted to work with the engineers and the coders to build products.
我想与工程师和编码员一起构建产品。
I thought product management was the right function for me, and so my dream was always to be a PM and it wasn't luck as to how I ended up becoming a PM.
我认为产品管理对我来说是正确的职能，所以我的梦想一直是成为一名 PM，但我最终成为一名 PM 并不幸运。
I sort of took the same approach showing up at the office asking if there were any roles.
我也采取了同样的方式出现在办公室询问是否有任何职位。
Naomi Gleit: By then, we had moved to 156 University and all of the PMs and engineers worked on the second floor, and I was working in marketing, like I mentioned, and I worked on the third floor and all the business functions worked on the third floor, and my goal was to be a PM.
Naomi Gleit：那时，我们已经搬到了 156 大学，所有的 PM 和工程师都在二楼工作，我在营销部门工作，就像我提到的，我在三楼工作，所有业务职能部门都在三楼工作，我的目标是成为一名 PM。
I ended up going, sort of the analogy, I went to the second floor most days after work, asked if there were any projects that I could help out with.
我最终去了，有点类比，我下班后大部分时间都会去二楼，询问是否有任何我可以帮忙的项目。
Naomi Gleit: It was very early days.
Naomi Gleit：那是很早的时候。
There was always more to do than people to do it.
要做的事情总是比人们要做的事情还要多。
And so eventually I picked up a few projects, helping with program management, giving my product feedback, and by the time that I actually applied formally to be a product manager, I had been doing the job voluntarily, almost informally for a few months.
因此，最终我接手了一些项目，帮助项目管理，提供产品反馈，当我真正正式申请成为产品经理时，我已经自愿地、几乎非正式地从事这项工作几个月了。
Naomi Gleit: And I remember this because I had a seat on the third floor.
Naomi Gleit：我记得这一点是因为我在三楼有一个座位。
I picked up all the stuff on my desk, put it in a box, walked down to the second floor once I got the job to become a PM.
我拿起办公桌上的所有东西，把它们放进一个盒子里，当我得到成为 PM 的工作时，我走到二楼。
And when I got to the second floor, I distinctly remember everyone on the second floor standing and clapping.
当我到达二楼时，我清楚地记得二楼的每个人都站起来鼓掌。
And so it was a big standing ovation.
因此，全场起立鼓掌。
I'll never forget, Boz was there, by the way.
顺便说一句，我永远不会忘记，博兹也在场。
I know Boz has been on your podcast, but even Boz was there sort of standing and clapping.
我知道博兹一直在你的播客上，但就连博兹也站在那里鼓掌。
And so I guess to the lesson that you were trying to extract from my story, I do think I sort of tried to create the luck by not giving up and just repeatedly cold calling or cold showing up or cold volunteering until I sort of was able to make it happen.
所以我想，从你试图从我的故事中汲取的教训来看，我确实认为我试图通过不放弃、不断地打电话、冷出现或冷志愿服务来创造运气，直到我能够实现这一目标。
Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
Again, very empowering.
再次强调，非常有力量。
It's not just like, "Oh, there's these people that just get lucky they land this PM job." It's like you landed at the company.
这不仅仅是“哦，这些人只是幸运地得到了这份 PM 工作。”就好像你来到了公司一样。
I want to be a product manager, which is interesting.
我想成为一名产品经理，这很有趣。
Most people don't grow up in I want to be a product manager.
大多数人成长过程中并没有想成为一名产品经理。
That's like a rare thing people even want, especially that early on.
这就像人们想要的一件罕见的事情，尤其是在早期。
So it's interesting that you already knew that, but you basically did the job.
有趣的是，您已经知道这一点，但您基本上完成了这项工作。
You did the job of PM before you had the job, and by the time you actually asked for it, you've been doing it for a long time and you could show, "Hey, look, I'm actually good at this.
在你得到这份工作之前，你就已经做过产品经理的工作，当你真正要求这份工作时，你已经做了很长时间了，你可以表现出，“嘿，看，我实际上很擅长这个。
I can do this job." Awesome.
我能胜任这份工作。”惊人的。
Lenny Rachitsky: By the way, I love the Boz connection.
Lenny Rachitsky：顺便说一句，我喜欢博兹的联系。
I'm finding that Boz is connected to the most guests of this podcast in so many different ways.
我发现博兹通过多种不同的方式与这个播客的大多数嘉宾建立了联系。
Lenny Rachitsky: And a few other people.
Lenny Rachitsky：还有其他一些人。
It's just interesting.
这很有趣。
There's a Boz spiderweb of connections throughout this podcast so far.
到目前为止，整个播客中都存在着博兹蜘蛛网般的联系。
Okay, so I'm going to fast-forward to today.
好的，我要快进到今天。
So your role today is head of product at Meta?
那么您今天的角色是 Meta 的产品主管？
Lenny Rachitsky: What does that mean?
莱尼·拉奇茨基：这是什么意思？
What do you do at Meta today?
你今天在 Meta 做什么？
How would you describe your role?
您会如何描述您的角色？
Naomi Gleit: There are a few thousand PMs at Meta.
Naomi Gleit：Meta 有几千名产品经理。
They do not all report to me.
他们并不都向我汇报。
I would say a few hundred of them report to me on the teams that I directly manage, but I feel responsible for the entire PM community at Meta.
我想说的是，其中有几百人向我汇报我直接管理的团队，但我觉得自己对 Meta 的整个 PM 社区负有责任。
There are things that we do centrally, things like PM performance, PM culture PM onboarding and training, and that's the kind of thing that I look out for.
有些事情是我们集中做的，比如 PM 绩效、PM 文化、PM 入职和培训，这就是我所关注的事情。
Naomi Gleit: Obviously I wanted to be a PM.
Naomi Gleit：显然我想成为一名总理。
Head of product is my dream job.
产品主管是我梦想的工作。
I am deeply supportive of the PM function, and so I really care and I think PMs are a huge point of leverage in a company for how we can actually get stuff done and help accomplish the company's goals.
我非常支持 PM 职能，所以我真的很关心，并且我认为 PM 是公司中一个重要的杠杆，可以帮助我们真正完成工作并帮助实现公司的目标。
And so I sort of focus on PM as a really important exponential lever for doing that.
因此，我将 PM 视为实现这一目标的一个非常重要的指数杠杆。
Lenny Rachitsky: I love that.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢这个。
Okay.
好的。
I'm going to come back to what you've learned about what makes super successful PMs, what makes you really successful.
我将回顾一下您所学到的关于如何成为超级成功的产品经理以及如何让您真正成功的知识。
I want to take a tangent to Zuck.
我想与扎克切线。
Lenny Rachitsky: So you've known Zuck for over 20 years at this point, and I just have to ask a few Zuck questions because people are always curious to learn from what has worked so well for him.
Lenny Rachitsky：所以你现在已经认识扎克20多年了，我只需要问扎克一些问题，因为人们总是好奇地想从他的成功经验中学习。
The first question is just there's been a pretty profound transformation in Mark over the past few years, both in terms of how he leads and also just in his coolness and vibe factor.
第一个问题是，过去几年马克发生了相当深刻的转变，无论是在他的领导方式方面，还是在他的冷静和氛围方面。
What are your thoughts on just this transformation and how he's been able to pull it off?
您对这一转变有何看法以及他是如何实现这一转变的？
Naomi Gleit: So I've always said that there is the biggest gap of anybody I know between what people think of Mark and who Mark really is.
Naomi Gleit：所以我总是说，在我认识的人中，人们对马克的看法和马克的真实身份之间存在着最大的差距。
And so I think this is the Mark that I've known for the past 20 years and the world is finally getting to see what I've been lucky enough to see.
所以我认为这就是我过去 20 年来所认识的马克，全世界终于能看到我有幸看到的一切。
And that gap that we've talked about is really starting to close.
我们谈到的差距确实开始缩小。
Naomi Gleit: How did we get here?
Naomi Gleit：我们是怎么到这里的？
I always say Mark is a learn it all, not a know-it-all.
我总是说马克是一个无所不知的人，而不是一个万事通的人。
He is the fastest person at upskilling of anyone I've ever met.
他是我见过的提升技能最快的人。
He used to do these annual challenges.
他曾经做过这些年度挑战。
One year I did them with him, it was learning Chinese, and within a year he was able to basically achieve an eighth grade fluency in Chinese.
有一年我和他一起做，是学中文，一年之内他的中文基本能达到八年级的流利程度。
And that's just one example.
这只是一个例子。
Obviously, he's gotten incredibly great at guitar, MMA, a lot of his passions, but he's also gotten a lot better at some of the professional skills.
显然，他在吉他、综合格斗和他的很多爱好方面都变得非常出色，但他在一些专业技能上也得到了很大的提高。
And I think negotiation, public speaking is one of those.
我认为谈判、公开演讲就是其中之一。
I think before in the early days, it just wasn't something that he was very comfortable with.
我认为在早期，这并不是他感到很舒服的事情。
He's talked himself about coming across as a little scripted.
他自己也说过，这给人的印象有点照本宣科。
I think he was not confident and pretty careful about how he showed up and he's upskilled here.
我认为他对自己的表现以及他在这里的技能提升没有信心并且非常谨慎。
He's just gotten a lot more comfortable, and so people are able to see who he really is.
他变得更加自在，所以人们能够看到他的真实身份。
Lenny Rachitsky: He was also like, I don't know, 20 something when he started Facebook and now he's running a 80,000 person org.
Lenny Rachitsky：我不知道，当他创办 Facebook 时，他才 20 多岁，现在他正在管理一个拥有 80,000 人的组织。
I could see the emotion habits.
我可以看到情绪习惯。
Naomi Gleit: Yes.
内奥米·格莱特：是的。
I think he might've been 19 or 20 when I came.
我想我来的时候他可能已经19岁或20岁了。
Lenny Rachitsky: Oh God, that's insane.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：天哪，这太疯狂了。
So yeah, I could see why someone would change.
所以是的，我明白为什么有人会改变。
I was at the Acquired podcast Chase event with him being interviewed, and he's just such a cool dude now.
我参加了 Acquired 播客 Chase 活动，他接受了采访，他现在真是个很酷的家伙。
He just has these big shirts with his own letters on it, his own phrases, his chain.
他只有这些大衬衫，上面有他自己的字母，他自己的短语，他的链子。
What a cool dude.
多酷的家伙啊。
Naomi Gleit: His watch.
内奥米·格雷特：他的手表。
Yeah, I was at that event too.
是的，我也参加了那个活动。
I thought it was great.
我觉得这太棒了。
I think, yeah, that's the no gap between who Mark is and what the world sees.
我想，是的，马克是谁和世界所看到的之间没有差距。
Lenny Rachitsky: I love that.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢这个。
Is there something about Zuck that you know that most people don't know?
关于扎克，有什么你知道但大多数人不知道的事情吗？
Something that would surprise us?
有什么会让我们惊讶的吗？
Naomi Gleit: The one thing I would say about Mark is I think people know he's married.
Naomi Gleit：关于马克，我想说的一件事是，我认为人们知道他已经结婚了。
He has three daughters.
他有三个女儿。
He's a really great dad, he's a really great husband.
他真是一位伟大的父亲，他真是一位伟大的丈夫。
I would say he's also a really good friend.
我想说他也是一个非常好的朋友。
Maybe that's something that I can sort of speak to from experience.
也许这是我可以从经验中谈论的事情。
He's just an incredibly thoughtful friend.
他只是一个非常体贴的朋友。
There was a period in my life, I think it was 10 years ago when I was going through just sort of a really hard time.
我生命中有一段时间，我想那是十年前，当时我经历了一段非常艰难的时期。
I had come out of a breakup, but Mark saw that I was having a hard time.
我刚刚从分手中走出来，但马克看到我过得很艰难。
He asked me if I wanted to volunteer to teach a class in East Palo Alto after their school day.
他问我是否愿意在放学后自愿在东帕洛阿尔托教课。
Naomi Gleit: And in retrospect, it's pretty funny, but Mark and I taught a class about how to build a business.
Naomi Gleit：回想起来，这很有趣，但马克和我教授了一门关于如何建立企业的课程。
So you had the CEO of Meta teaching this class to a bunch of middle school students, and we got really close to them through that process.
因此，Meta 的首席执行官向一群中学生教授这门课程，通过这个过程，我们与他们的关系非常密切。
We made some really important mentorship connections.
我们建立了一些非常重要的指导关系。
For years, we met with them.
多年来，我们一直与他们见面。
I think we still continue to, even though they've now at this point graduated from college and have real jobs.
我认为我们仍然会继续这样做，尽管他们现在已经大学毕业并找到了真正的工作。
Naomi Gleit: But one of the lessons that we taught during that class that I remember Mark distinctly writing on the whiteboard, or not the whiteboard, there actually was chalk, it was with chalk on a chalkboard with the four life lessons.
内奥米·格雷特：但是我们在那堂课上教的课程之一，我记得马克清楚地写在白板上，或者不是白板上，实际上有粉笔，用粉笔在黑板上写着四门人生课程。
That was one, and I kept these for myself as well, love yourself.
那是其中之一，我也为自己保留了这些，爱你自己。
Two, only then can you truly serve others.
二、只有这样你才能真正为别人服务。
Three, focus on what you can control.
第三，专注于你能控制的事情。
And four, for those things never give up.
第四，对于那些事情永不放弃。
Naomi Gleit: And that was sort of his life lessons, four steps to how to approach life.
Naomi Gleit：这就是他的人生教训，即如何对待生活的四个步骤。
And we actually made stickers for these four steps that the students could actually put on their composition notebooks as a reminder.
我们实际上为这四个步骤制作了贴纸，学生可以将其贴在作文笔记本上作为提醒。
And I think obviously that has really helped me over time, but I think that in that you can see some of what I think we all see in Mark, for example, for those things never give up.
我认为显然，随着时间的推移，这确实对我有帮助，但我认为，从中你可以看到我认为我们都在马克身上看到的一些东西，例如，那些永不放弃的东西。
He has that aspect of him and it makes sense.
他有这个方面，这是有道理的。
For me number three is really the hardest, which is focus on what you can control.
对我来说，第三点确实是最难的，那就是专注于你可以控制的事情。
I think I probably think I can control more things than I actually can.
我想我可能认为我能控制的事情比我实际能控制的要多。
Lenny Rachitsky: So do we all.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：我们大家也是如此。
I love that he was sharing that in a class on how to start a business, this life advice.
我喜欢他在课堂上分享关于如何创业的人生建议。
Lenny Rachitsky: Oh man, that's amazing.
Lenny Rachitsky：天啊，太棒了。
I want to chat a bit about, so at this point is 86,000 employees, something like that.
我想聊一下，目前有 86,000 名员工，类似的情况。
That's what I found online.
这是我在网上找到的。
So he has to run this massive org as this CEO, one person.
因此，他必须作为首席执行官来管理这个庞大的组织，一个人。
I know that one way that he does this, he has something called a small group.
我知道他这样做的一种方式是，他有一个叫做小组的东西。
Is that the term?
是这个词吗？
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, cool.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的，酷。
So he's got the small group that he calls it and it's essentially is like core execs and this group meets regularly, and that's kind of how he's able to manage the entire org through this small group.
所以他有一个他所说的小组，本质上就像核心高管，这个小组定期开会，这就是他能够通过这个小组管理整个组织的方式。
For people that are struggling to run an increasingly larger org, are there any tidbits from how Mark and the small group operate that might be helpful to folks?
对于那些正在努力管理一个越来越大的组织的人来说，马克和小团体的运作方式是否有任何可能对人们有所帮助的花絮？
Naomi Gleit: Sure.
内奥米·格莱特：当然。
So I think the first thing is small group is sort of the leadership team.
所以我认为首先是小团体是领导团队。
It's the leaders working on the most important projects at the company, sort of independent of reporting structure and stuff.
这是负责公司最重要项目的领导者，有点独立于报告结构和其他内容。
It's like who are the leaders on the big most important projects or functions?
就像谁是最重要的大型项目或职能的领导者？
They will be represented in small group.
他们将以小组形式出现。
Naomi Gleit: What makes this group unique?
Naomi Gleit：这个团体有何独特之处？
A lot of them are people like me, people that have been there for a very long time.
他们中的很多人都是像我一样的人，已经在那里呆了很长时间了。
So I think the tenure of small group is really rare.
所以我觉得小团体的任期确实很少见。
Why I think that's important is you have a lot of people that are motivated by mission rather than climbing the corporate ladder at this point.
为什么我认为这很重要，因为现在有很多人是被使命所激励，而不是攀登公司的阶梯。
And so there are a lot of what I call disagreeable givers.
因此，有很多我称之为令人讨厌的付出者。
Naomi Gleit: So just to back up, I don't know if you've heard this framework, but I think I learned this from Adam Grant during an executive learning and development session, and he was saying that if you think of a two-by-two, there's people who are agreeable and disagreeable, and then there's people who are givers and takers.
Naomi Gleit：所以我要支持一下，我不知道你是否听说过这个框架，但我想我在一次高管学习和发展会议上从 Adam Grant 那里学到了这一点，他说，如果你想到一个二乘二的人，就会有人是同意的，也有人是不同意的，还有人是给予者和索取者。
Naomi Gleit: And the most dangerous kind of person to have in an organization is an agreeable taker.
Naomi Gleit：组织中最危险的人是一个令人愉快的接受者。
And what that means is an agreeable person, super nice, everyone likes them, really easy to get along with, but they're a taker and maybe their motivation is more self-interested rather than what's best for the company, which is how I would define a giver.
这意味着是一个令人愉快的人，超级好，每个人都喜欢他们，真的很容易相处，但他们是一个索取者，也许他们的动机更多是自私的，而不是对公司最好的，这就是我对给予者的定义。
And the most precious person in an organization is the disagreeable giver.
组织中最珍贵的人就是不讨人喜欢的付出者。
Those are the people who are really motivated to do what's best for the company, but they can be a little bit disagreeable in the sense that they may not say what you want to hear.
这些人确实有动力去做对公司最有利的事情，但他们可能会有点令人不快，因为他们可能不会说你想听的话。
They may push back on things, they may fight for things.
他们可能会抵制某些事情，他们可能会为某些事情而奋斗。
And so I think small group is characterized by a lot of disagreeable givers and I think that's really important for an organization.
所以我认为小团体的特点是有很多令人讨厌的付出者，我认为这对于一个组织来说非常重要。
Naomi Gleit: One thing I think Mark has done really well in general is just have a culture, including on his leadership team, of people who give him feedback.
Naomi Gleit：我认为马克总的来说做得非常好的一件事就是拥有一种为他提供反馈的文化，包括他的领导团队。
I think a lot of times as you get more successful or as you have more fame or if you have more wealth, you lose having an accurate feedback loop.
我认为很多时候，当你获得更大的成功，或者你有更多的名气，或者你有更多的财富时，你就会失去准确的反馈循环。
And people may not want to be a hundred percent honest with you for various reasons.
由于各种原因，人们可能不想对你百分百诚实。
And Mark has tried to ensure that he himself has an accurate feedback loop, or we as a company have more of an accurate feedback loop by surrounding himself and our leadership team and creating a culture of giving direct and honest feedback.
马克试图确保他本人有一个准确的反馈循环，或者我们作为一家公司通过围绕他自己和我们的领导团队并创建一种提供直接和诚实反馈的文化来拥有更准确的反馈循环。
So that's some of the unique properties of small group.
这就是小团体的一些独特属性。
Naomi Gleit: From a process perspective, we have one weekly sort of strategic meeting.
Naomi Gleit：从流程的角度来看，我们每周召开一次战略会议。
It's more open-ended, there is time for discussion.
它更加开放，有时间讨论。
It's longer and it's sort of more unstructured.
它更长，而且更加无结构。
We also have one weekly operational meeting, which is highly structured where we go through all of the priority projects.
我们还每周举行一次运营会议，会议结构严谨，我们会审议所有优先项目。
The person who owns each of the projects will actually speak to the weekly updates for that project.
每个项目的所有者实际上都会谈论该项目的每周更新。
And it's very operational and tactical.
而且它非常具有操作性和战术性。
Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
I just love this name, small group.
我只是喜欢这个名字，小团体。
It's just like a cozy name.
就像一个温馨的名字。
It's not like executive staff or ESA after all these terms people always use.
毕竟人们总是使用这些术语，它与执行人员或欧空局不同。
And that's just our small group.
这只是我们的一小群人。
Lenny Rachitsky: And then this framework you described, it sounds a lot like radical candor of challenging directly, but caring deeply.
Lenny Rachitsky：然后你描述的这个框架，听起来很像直接挑战的激进坦诚，但又深切关怀。
Lenny Rachitsky: Where being disagreeable, but being constructive and additive.
Lenny Rachitsky：虽然令人不快，但具有建设性和附加性。
Is that the term?
是这个词吗？
What was it?
那是什么？
Disagreeable, but?
不同意，但是？
Lenny Rachitsky: If there's nothing here, totally cool.
Lenny Rachitsky：如果这里什么都没有，那就太酷了。
But is there something that you changed Mark's mind about?
但有什么事情让你改变了马克的想法吗？
You've talked about he's good at seeing new data and being like, "Oh, okay, I see, I see." Or is there anything that you were successful there that is an interesting story?
你说过他擅长看到新数据，然后说：“哦，好吧，我明白了，我明白了。”或者你在那里取得了成功，有什么有趣的故事吗？
Naomi Gleit: One of the things that we did in the early days on the growth team, because I'm not sure that necessarily when we talk about this sort of legacy or the history or the lore around the growth team, and this may not be a direct answer to the question, but it didn't really necessarily-
Naomi Gleit：这是我们早期在增长团队中所做的事情之一，因为我不确定当我们谈论这种关于增长团队的遗产或历史或传说时，这可能不是问题的直接答案，但实际上并不一定-
Naomi Gleit: And this may not be a direct answer to the question, but it didn't really necessarily come from Mark.
Naomi Gleit：这可能不是问题的直接答案，但它不一定来自马克。
Mark wasn't like, "You guys should create a growth team.
马克并不是说，“你们应该创建一支成长团队。
Here's how you should operate." And so I think in some ways we established and grew a growth team and Mark got on board or saw the value in it and was a huge proponent of it, but I'm not sure it necessarily originated with him.
这就是你应该如何操作。”因此，我认为在某些方面，我们建立并发展了一支增长团队，马克加入或看到了其中的价值，并且是它的大力支持者，但我不确定这是否一定源于他。
And indeed, I think sometimes the focus on being so data- driven might've been something that myself, Alex Schultz, Javier Olavon, these are some of the original people that were on the growth team and that my closest coworkers now may have really pushed on and highlighted the value of for Mark.
事实上，我认为有时候对数据驱动的关注可能是我自己、亚历克斯·舒尔茨、哈维尔·奥拉文，这些是增长团队中的一些最初的人，而我最亲密的同事现在可能真正推动并强调了马克的价值。
I'm happy to talk about the growth team, which is something I get asked a lot of questions about, if you want.
我很高兴谈论增长团队，如果你愿意的话，我经常被问到这个问题。
Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, I'd love to.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的，我很乐意。
That's exactly where I was about to segue since you brought that up.
自从你提出这个问题以来，这正是我要继续讨论的地方。
So the Facebook growth team, it's a legendary team.
所以Facebook的增长团队，是一个传奇的团队。
I think it was probably the first real growth team in tech.
我认为这可能是科技领域第一个真正的增长团队。
The team developed some of the most core growth levers and techniques that companies use today, and so I'm really excited to chat a bit about this and what you learned from that time.
该团队开发了一些公司当今使用的一些最核心的增长杠杆和技术，因此我很高兴能谈谈这一点以及您从那时学到的东西。
One thing I wanted to start with is there's this legendary activation metric that you all had, the goal was to get, I think it was seven friends in 10 days or something like that.
我想开始的一件事是，你们都拥有这个传奇的激活指标，目标是获得，我认为是 10 天内七个朋友或类似的东西。
Is that a real thing?
这是真的吗？
Is that what you guys actually did?
你们真的是这么做的吗？
Anything more there for folks that are like, "Oh, we got to come up with something like this"?
对于那些“哦，我们必须想出这样的东西”的人来说，还有什么吗？
Naomi Gleit: Sure.
内奥米·格莱特：当然。
So yes, seven friends in 10 days was a thing.
所以，是的，十天内认识七个朋友是很重要的。
10 friends in 14 days was also a thing.
14天内交到10个朋友也是一回事。
They're the same thing, they're just different points on a retention curve.
它们是同一件事，只是保留曲线上的不同点。
I would say the key insight here is when we started the growth team, I think we were pretty focused on acquisition.
我想说，这里的关键见解是，当我们组建增长团队时，我认为我们非常专注于收购。
We had a notion though of growth accounting, which looks at what's our net growth every day?
我们有一个增长会计的概念，它关注我们每天的净增长是多少？
And that would look at the number of new users that registered minus the number of users that actually went stale.
这将查看注册的新用户数量减去实际过时的用户数量。
So after a 30-day period, that's how we define it, they no longer logged in.
因此，30 天后（这就是我们的定义），他们将不再登录。
And then plus the number of users that resurrected, which is after 30 days they came back.
然后加上复活的用户数量，也就是 30 天后回来的用户数量。
And what we found was the churn in resurrection lines were actually much larger than the new user line, which implied to us that retention and driving those two lines was actually our biggest lever to drive net growth.
我们发现，复活线的流失实际上比新用户线大得多，这对我们来说意味着保留和推动这两条线实际上是我们推动净增长的最大杠杆。
Naomi Gleit: And so while we were focused on acquisition, a lot of our focus shifted to be around engagement and retention.
Naomi Gleit：因此，虽然我们专注于收购，但我们的很多重点都转移到了参与度和保留率上。
How do we drive engagement and retention?
我们如何提高参与度和保留率？
We look at the variables that correlate most with that outcome.
我们研究与该结果最相关的变量。
What we found was friending.
我们发现的是交友。
And so those two magic moments, having seven friends in 10 days or 10 friends in 14 days really just map to when we feel like your likelihood of being a retained user goes up because you've seen the value in Facebook.
因此，这两个神奇的时刻，即 10 天内拥有 7 个朋友或 14 天内拥有 10 个朋友，实际上正好对应于我们认为您成为留存用户的可能性会上升，因为您已经看到了 Facebook 的价值。
And it makes sense, Facebook is much more compelling if you have 14 friends.
这是有道理的，如果你有 14 个朋友，Facebook 就会更具吸引力。
And the other thing around 10 or 14 days is we wanted it to happen quickly, we wanted to have you experience the magic moment soon after you had registered on the site to prevent you from churning and then us having to resurrect you again.
大约 10 或 14 天的另一件事是，我们希望它能很快发生，我们希望您在网站上注册后立即体验到神奇的时刻，以防止您流失，然后我们不得不再次复活您。
Lenny Rachitsky: One of the most interesting lessons from this activation metric that people talk about, because right now everyone's like, "Yeah, of course retention is what you need to focus on.
Lenny Rachitsky：人们谈论的这个激活指标中最有趣的教训之一，因为现在每个人都喜欢，“是的，当然保留是你需要关注的。
That's what product-market fit is." I think right now that's what everyone knows.
这就是产品与市场的契合度。”我想现在每个人都知道这一点。
I love that you guys basically figured that out, was one of the first times of, "Here's how we understand if our product will last and how to grow retention because it matters most." And retention cohort curves I think was one of the innovations y'all thought about early of just like, "Here's how we track retention, people joining at a certain time, how long do they stick around?"
我喜欢你们基本上明白了这一点，这是我们第一次了解我们的产品是否会持久以及如何提高保留率，因为这最重要。”我认为保留队列曲线是你们早期想到的创新之一，就像“我们如何跟踪保留情况，人们在特定时间加入，他们会停留多长时间？”
Naomi Gleit: Totally.
内奥米·格莱特：完全可以。
And that was Danny Ferrante who really came up with the growth accounting framework, which I guess is quite obvious, but the plus new minus stale plus resurrected.
真正提出增长核算框架的是丹尼·费兰特（Danny Ferrante），我想这是相当明显的，但加新减旧加复活了。
The thing that I feel like may be valuable for PMs and is one of my Naomi-isms is I think what the growth team really pioneered was being data-driven and product-driven, especially in an area that was historically more of a business function.
我觉得对产品经理来说可能有价值的事情，也是我的内奥米主义之一，是我认为增长团队真正开创的是数据驱动和产品驱动，特别是在一个历史上更多是业务职能的领域。
So I think at that time a lot of the growth in new users was expected to come from marketing or comms, whereas the insight that we had is actually the product is the biggest lever to drive growth, and that means we should have a product and engineering team working on optimizing things like the registration flow, the invite flow, the new user onboarding, getting you seven friends in 10 days.
所以我认为当时新用户的增长预计将来自营销或传播，而我们的洞察实际上是产品是推动增长的最大杠杆，这意味着我们应该有一个产品和工程团队致力于优化注册流程、邀请流程、新用户加入等方面，在 10 天内让你认识 7 个朋友。
Naomi Gleit: One of my Naomi-isms is really understand, identify, and execute.
Naomi Gleit：我的 Naomi 主义之一是真正理解、识别和执行。
That framework came from 2009 where the growth team at the time, it was fledgling and it just started, was focused on only instrumenting data.
该框架来自 2009 年，当时的增长团队刚刚起步，只专注于数据分析。
And Alex often wears a shirt that says, "I guess when you can know." We just didn't have the data that we needed to make informed decisions to know really what were the biggest levers to drive growth.
亚历克斯经常穿着一件衬衫，上面写着：“我猜你什么时候能知道。”我们只是没有做出明智决策所需的数据，无法真正了解推动增长的最大杠杆是什么。
And so in 2009 in January, we basically stopped doing anything on our roadmap except data instrumentation.
因此，在 2009 年 1 月，除了数据检测之外，我们基本上停止了路线图上的任何操作。
And that's when we instrumented every step of the registration flow, instrumented every step of the news or onboarding experience.
就在那时，我们对注册流程的每一步、新闻或入职体验的每一步进行了检测。
We knew where there was drop off.
我们知道哪里有下车的地方。
And so we understood, which allowed us to identify what were the key opportunities to drive growth and maybe, hey, it's increasing friending in the user experience or 20% drop off on registered users at the email confirmation step, how can we address that?
所以我们明白了，这使我们能够确定推动增长的关键机会是什么，也许，嘿，用户体验中的好友关系不断增加，或者在电子邮件确认步骤中注册用户数量下降了 20%，我们该如何解决这个问题？
These are the opportunities that we identified and then we would execute by building products.
这些是我们发现的机会，然后我们将通过构建产品来执行。
Naomi Gleit: So having this data-driven product-driven approach to what I think historically was more of a business responsibility at a company was sort of the special sauce of the growth team.
Naomi Gleit：因此，采用这种数据驱动、产品驱动的方法来处理我认为历史上更多的是公司的业务责任，是增长团队的特殊武器。
We eventually extended that approach.
我们最终扩展了这种方法。
I think that approach started with the growth team, but we extended to other areas.
我认为这种方法是从增长团队开始的，但我们扩展到了其他领域。
So for example, one of the projects that I took on after growth was social impact.
举例来说，我在成长后承担的项目之一是社会影响。
And instead of what I think a normal company might do, which is start a corporate social responsibility wing, we decided, no, we're going to take a data-driven product-driven approach to driving social impact.
我们决定，不，我们将采取数据驱动、产品驱动的方法来推动社会影响，而不是我认为正常公司可能会做的那样，即建立企业社会责任部门。
Instead of having a foundation that's distributing money, we're going to build a product that actually raises money from our community.
我们不会建立一个分配资金的基金会，而是要构建一个真正从社区筹集资金的产品。
And many years later we've raised billions of dollars from the community for charity.
许多年后，我们已经从社区筹集了数十亿美元用于慈善事业。
So that's sort of the approach that I think is unique about the growth team that expanded to other areas and that I think that the company in many ways has taken to most of the problems that we face.
因此，我认为这种方法对于扩展到其他领域的增长团队来说是独一无二的，而且我认为公司在很多方面已经解决了我们面临的大多数问题。
Lenny Rachitsky: That's such a good point.
Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个很好的观点。
And I almost took that for granted, but there was such a huge shift that y'all started from moving from marketing being the driver of growth to product and data and experiments and all that stuff.
我几乎认为这是理所当然的，但发生了如此巨大的转变，你们都开始从营销作为增长的驱动力转向产品、数据和实验以及所有这些东西。
And so I think that's such a good reminder that, fun fact on the social good team, I'm really close friends with the designer that was on my team, his name's Mickey.
所以我认为这是一个很好的提醒，在社会公益团队中，有趣的是，我和我团队中的设计师是非常亲密的朋友，他的名字叫米奇。
He was on that team for a while and really enjoyed and yeah, really enjoyed working with you.
他在那个团队工作了一段时间，非常享受和你一起工作。
Fun fact.
有趣的事实。
Naomi Gleit: Oh, that's so great.
内奥米·格雷特：哦，那太棒了。
I remember Mickey, what is his last name?
我记得米奇，他姓什么？
Naomi Gleit: Okay.
娜奥米·格莱特：好的。
Yes, I definitely remember this, yes.
是的，我绝对记得这一点，是的。
And social impact is just one thing that I think I'm really proud of.
社会影响只是我认为真正值得自豪的一件事。
And again, remember social impact used to be a business thing.
再次强调，社会影响曾经是一个商业问题。
You would create this corporate social responsibility part of the company that was very separate from the product and engineering team.
您将在公司中创建与产品和工程团队非常独立的企业社会责任部分。
Naomi Gleit: Another thing that we did in the early days was there was a juncture where it was like, "How are we going to translate this site?" And I think we could have taken more of a non-technical traditional approach and had professional translators translate the entire site into the different languages, and instead sort of what the growth team suggested was why don't we build a version of Facebook that allows you to make translations in line?
Naomi Gleit：我们早期做的另一件事是，有一个关键时刻，“我们要如何翻译这个网站？”我认为我们可以采取更多非技术性的传统方法，让专业翻译人员将整个网站翻译成不同的语言，而增长团队的建议是，为什么我们不构建一个允许您在线进行翻译的 Facebook 版本呢？
And so the community of people using Facebook at the time who actually knew the product the best could actually insert translations and there was a whole system that we built around how to up-rank the best translations and down-rank, sort of like Wikipedia.
因此，当时使用 Facebook 的人们实际上最了解该产品，他们实际上可以插入翻译，我们围绕如何提高最佳翻译的排名和降低排名构建了一个完整的系统，有点像维基百科。
And to this day, we have over 100 languages supported.
迄今为止，我们已支持 100 多种语言。
So we're always trying to find these product technology solutions to these sort of traditional problems.
因此，我们一直在努力寻找这些产品技术解决这些传统问题的方法。
Lenny Rachitsky: I totally remember that, where it's like you ask your users to help translate the site.
Lenny Rachitsky：我完全记得，就像你要求你的用户帮助翻译网站一样。
Lenny Rachitsky: I want to come back real quick to the activation metric because it's something that a lot of people somewhat misuse and think maybe incorrectly about.
Lenny Rachitsky：我想快速回到激活指标，因为很多人都有点误用并且可能错误地思考它。
So to come up with an activation, as you described, you basically figure out what's the regression of if someone does X, retention increases, and so let's focus on getting them there.
因此，要提出一个激活，正如您所描述的，您基本上要弄清楚如果有人做了 X，保留率会增加，那么回归会是什么，所以让我们专注于让他们到达那里。
And a lot of people struggle with coming up with that metric.
很多人都在努力想出这个指标。
Do you have any thoughts on just how important it was to have that very specific activation milestone of seven exact friends in exactly 10 days versus the value of just having anything that is a rallying point for everyone to focus on and drive?
您是否认为在 10 天内拥有七个确切朋友的非常具体的激活里程碑与仅拥有任何可以让每个人集中精力并推动的事情的价值有多重要？
Naomi Gleit: I think the majority of the value is in the latter, is just having extreme clarity around the goal and that allowed everybody to work towards optimizing the same goal.
Naomi Gleit：我认为大部分价值在于后者，只是对目标非常清晰，这使得每个人都可以努力优化同一目标。
You're right, we did sort of just pick a point on the curve.
你是对的，我们确实只是在曲线上选择了一个点。
I think it could have been any of those.
我认为可能是其中任何一个。
And indeed, as part of preparing for this, I was like, "Was it seven friends in 10 days?" I had to go back and I asked a few people that I worked with back in the day and they were like, "Well, I thought it was 10 in 14." I mean, I think it doesn't matter, it's just that we picked one of them and what mattered there was we had the same goal, what mattered was that it was a retention goal or an activation metric.
事实上，作为准备的一部分，我想，“十天内有七个朋友吗？”我不得不回去，问了一些当时和我一起工作的人，他们的反应是：“嗯，我以为是 14 中的 10。”我的意思是，我认为这并不重要，只是我们选择了其中一个，重要的是我们有相同的目标，重要的是它是保留目标或激活指标。
Naomi Gleit: And one of the most important things that actually came out of having that goal was building a new user experience.
Naomi Gleit：实现这一目标后最重要的事情之一就是构建新的用户体验。
Believe it or not, when we first launched Facebook, I wasn't around then, but in the early days of when it was just a college site, we didn't need a news or onboarding.
不管你相信与否，当我们第一次推出 Facebook 时，我并不在场，但在早期，当它只是一个大学网站时，我们不需要新闻或入门。
We didn't need to explain to people that they had to find their friends.
我们不需要向人们解释他们必须找到他们的朋友。
They were sort of automagically connected to everyone on the college campus and sort of knew how to use this product, it felt very intuitive.
他们有点自动地与大学校园里的每个人联系起来，并且知道如何使用这个产品，感觉非常直观。
Again, we were college students building a product for other college students.
同样，我们是大学生，为其他大学生开发产品。
They were sitting next to each other in libraries or at desks and sort of through osmosis understanding how the product worked.
他们在图书馆或办公桌前坐在一起，通过潜移默化了解产品的工作原理。
Naomi Gleit: It was more when we launched the ability for teens to register and then work networks, and then in 2006 open registration where we started getting all kinds of people with any email address, before it was .edu or a microsoft.com email address that was required in order to sign up for Facebook and then anyone with any email just could register including people like my dad and my grandma that we realized, wow, in order to get people to this magic moment, how are we going to do that?
Naomi Gleit：更重要的是，当我们推出让青少年注册然后工作网络的功能时，然后在 2006 年开放注册，我们开始让各种各样的人拥有任何电子邮件地址，之前注册 Facebook 需要 .edu 或 microsoft.com 电子邮件地址，然后任何拥有任何电子邮件地址的人都可以注册，包括像我爸爸和我奶奶这样的人，我们意识到，哇，为了让人们进入这个神奇的时刻，我们要怎么做呢？
What's the most effective way that insight resulted in building a new user experience?
洞察力构建新用户体验的最有效方式是什么？
I remember it was just like step one, upload your profile picture.
我记得这就像第一步一样，上传您的个人资料照片。
That was really important so people could find you and know who you were.
这非常重要，这样人们才能找到你并知道你是谁。
Step two, find your friends.
第二步，找到你的朋友。
That's where a lot of the contact importing and people you may know and, "Here are other people at your school and here are mutual friends." That step in the news or experience ultimately became one of the most important drivers of that activation metric that we talked about.
那里有很多联系人和你可能认识的人，“这里是你学校的其他人，这里是共同的朋友。”新闻或体验中的这一步骤最终成为我们讨论的激活指标的最重要驱动因素之一。
Lenny Rachitsky: I love that you shared that, such a recurring theme on this podcast, the power of onboarding, the value of investing in onboarding and the ripple effects of opportunities there.
Lenny Rachitsky：我很高兴你分享了这个播客中反复出现的主题：入职培训的力量、投资入职培训的价值以及机会的连锁反应。
I love that you also were kind of like the first like, "Onboarding, that's a thing, we need onboarding."
我喜欢你也有点像第一个，“入职，这是一件事，我们需要入职。”
Naomi Gleit: I know.
娜奥米·格莱特：我知道。
I mean, I remember the day where I was like, "Do we need to explain to people how to use this?
我的意思是，我记得那天我想，“我们需要向人们解释如何使用这个吗？
Is it not obvious?" And it's like my dad's like, "I don't understand this whatsoever." My dad would go on to become Facebook's biggest power user because I always beta tested everything with him.
这还不够明显吗？”就像我父亲说的，“我根本不明白这一点。”我父亲后来成为 Facebook 最大的超级用户，因为我总是和他一起测试一切。
But that was not obvious to us at the time in 2006 that we had to explain to people how to use Facebook.
但在 2006 年，我们还没有意识到这一点，我们必须向人们解释如何使用 Facebook。
Naomi Gleit: And again, remember that it's fun talking about this because obviously the product has evolved so much, but the principles are relatively the same.
Naomi Gleit：再说一次，请记住，谈论这个很有趣，因为显然产品已经发展了很多，但原理相对相同。
It was thefacebook.com, eventually it became facebook.com, but eventually we built a mobile app and then it was mobile first product, and then it was about mobile photos, and then it was about mobile videos.
它是 thefacebook.com，最终变成了 facebook.com，但最终我们构建了一个移动应用程序，然后它是移动优先产品，然后是关于移动照片的产品，然后是关于移动视频的产品。
So over time, the technology has really changed, but the core use case that we really need to educate people on, which is how to connect with their friends on Facebook and whatever iteration or product is the same.
因此，随着时间的推移，技术确实发生了变化，但我们真正需要教育人们的核心用例是如何与 Facebook 上的朋友联系，无论迭代或产品都是相同的。
And so obviously we still have an onboarding today and it's relatively the same principles, like get a profile picture and find your friends.
很明显，我们今天仍然有一个入职流程，其原则相对相同，例如获取个人资料图片并找到您的朋友。
Lenny Rachitsky: Along those same lines, just maybe a last question around the growth stuff that you worked on for folks that are thinking of driving growth, working on onboarding maybe specifically just are there any lessons from things that worked super well when you were looking to accelerate growth of the Facebook early on that you think people are maybe sleeping on as lepers and tactics that worked back then that might still be really powerful today?
Lenny Rachitsky：沿着同样的思路，最后一个问题可能是关于你为那些正在考虑推动增长的人所做的增长工作，特别是在入职方面，也许只是当你早期寻求加速 Facebook 的增长时，你认为人们可能像麻风病人一样睡着了，而那些在当时有效的策略在今天可能仍然非常有效？
Naomi Gleit: Well, definitely the understand, identify, execute.
Naomi Gleit：嗯，绝对是理解、识别、执行。
I would just ask yourselves, do you have the data that you need to know what you need to do on growth?
我只想问你们自己，你们是否拥有了解增长所需的数据？
And if not, definitely take the time to instrument that data.
如果没有，一定要花时间来检测这些数据。
Naomi Gleit: The thing that, I think we were relatively lucky, I talked about why I was bullish on Facebook in 2005 even was because there was product-market fit.
Naomi Gleit：我认为我们相对幸运，我在 2005 年谈到了为什么我看好 Facebook，甚至是因为产品与市场契合。
And so for us growth, as much credit as we give to the growth team, I'm actually not sure how much credit we deserve and how much incremental growth we drove above and beyond the fact that this was a product that had product-market fit and we benefited in a huge amount from having high demand for the product.
因此，对于我们的增长而言，尽管我们给予增长团队多少信任，但我实际上不确定我们应得多少信任，以及我们推动了多少增量增长，超越了这样一个事实：这是一个具有产品市场契合度的产品，而且我们从对该产品的高需求中受益匪浅。
Naomi Gleit: So at every step, and I talked about the growth team, the projects that we were working on were really at a high level around removing barriers.
Naomi Gleit：因此，在每一步中，我谈到了增长团队，我们正在开展的项目在消除障碍方面确实处于高水平。
There were macro barriers, like the first project I worked on was high school students on Facebook, which is an interesting story in and of itself because at that time we almost created a separate website called Facebook High just to keep them separate from the college students.
存在宏观障碍，比如我从事的第一个项目是 Facebook 上的高中生，这本身就是一个有趣的故事，因为当时我们几乎创建了一个名为 Facebook High 的独立网站，只是为了将他们与大学生分开。
But at that time we were like, "No, this is one graph.
但当时我们的反应是，“不，这是一张图表。
This is one community.
这是一个社区。
College students have friends and people they're connected to of all different ages.
大学生有不同年龄段的朋友和与他们有联系的人。
Why bifurcate the graph?" And obviously we've maintained that principle ever since.
为什么要把图分成两部分？”显然，从那时起我们就一直坚持这一原则。
Naomi Gleit: But it was about removing barriers.
Naomi Gleit：但这是为了消除障碍。
So you had to be a college student, then you had to be a high school student, then you had to be in a work network, then you had to have any email address.
所以你必须是一名大学生，然后你必须是一名高中生，然后你必须在工作网络中，然后你必须有任何电子邮件地址。
One of the next projects I worked on was not everyone has access to a smartphone, how can we remove the barrier of having access to a smartphone and building more of a rich Facebook experience for someone that was using a feature phone or a lower-end device?
我接下来从事的项目之一是不是每个人都能使用智能手机，我们如何消除使用智能手机的障碍，并为使用功能手机或低端设备的人构建更丰富的 Facebook 体验？
Internet.org, what about removing the barrier of having access to the internet or being able to afford a data plan?
Internet.org，如何消除访问互联网或能够负担数据计划的障碍？
And so those are the macro barriers that thematically the growth team has worked on.
这些就是增长团队主要致力于解决的宏观障碍。
Naomi Gleit: What I would say is maybe applicable is really the micro barriers.
Naomi Gleit：我想说的是，也许适用的是微观障碍。
All of the work that we did on growth around optimizing the flows were really about removing micro barriers.
我们围绕优化流程在增长方面所做的所有工作实际上都是为了消除微观障碍。
One of the things that I thought was just so elegant was after we did that 2009 instrumentation of all the flows, the product flows relevant to growth, what we found is 20% of people aren't actually confirming their email.
我认为非常优雅的一件事是，在我们对 2009 年所有流程、与增长相关的产品流程进行了检测之后，我们发现 20% 的人实际上并没有确认他们的电子邮件。
We tried sending them an SMS, so maybe they would confirm the SMS instead.
我们尝试向他们发送短信，因此也许他们会确认短信。
What we found was a lot of people are actually still clicking on notifications that they're getting, but because it wasn't the specific confirmation email, we weren't able to confirm the account.
我们发现很多人实际上仍在点击他们收到的通知，但由于这不是具体的确认电子邮件，因此我们无法确认该帐户。
Naomi Gleit: And so what we did was allow people to get notifications even as an unconfirmed account, and then if they clicked on any of those notifications, that would count as an account confirmation as well because they proved ownership of the email.
Naomi Gleit：所以我们所做的就是允许人们即使是未经确认的帐户也能收到通知，然后如果他们点击任何这些通知，这也将被视为帐户确认，因为他们证明了电子邮件的所有权。
It's just removing a micro barrier of having to go find the confirmation email, click it before you can do anything on the site.
它只是消除了一个微观障碍，即必须找到确认电子邮件，然后单击它才能在网站上执行任何操作。
So I do think we've been relatively lucky in having a lot of high demand That meant that we could focus on just removing micro barriers.
因此，我确实认为我们相对幸运，拥有大量高需求，这意味着我们可以专注于消除微观障碍。
And then on the growth team, a lot of the iterations and optimizations were about removing just sort of friction.
然后在增长团队中，很多迭代和优化都是为了消除某种摩擦。
Lenny Rachitsky: I love that framework of micro barriers and macro barriers, just thinking about ways to make this accessible to more people and also just helping them get through the flow faster.
Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢微观障碍和宏观障碍的框架，只是思考如何让更多人接触到这一点，并帮助他们更快地通过流程。
I also love your point about how a lot of growth teams get a lot of credit for growing a business when really in many ways it could have done really well even without that team potentially because product-market fit was so strong.
我也很喜欢你的观点，即许多增长团队如何因发展业务而获得大量赞誉，而实际上，即使没有该团队，在很多方面，由于产品与市场的契合度如此之高，即使没有该团队，它也可以做得非常好。
I think about this with Airbnb honestly as just such after it gets to a certain point, such good product-market fit that who knows what would've happen if there was no one working on growth?
老实说，我对 Airbnb 的看法是，当它达到某一点后，产品与市场如此契合，谁知道如果没有人致力于增长，会发生什么？
It probably would've been okay for a long time.
可能很长一段时间都会没事的。
Naomi Gleit: Totally.
内奥米·格莱特：完全可以。
And then maybe where we do sort of see the impact is maybe something like the translations thing that we talked about.
然后也许我们确实看到了影响，就像我们谈到的翻译一样。
With the macro barrier, removing the language barrier, and so maybe the approach we took meant that we supported 100 plus languages instead of whatever the professional translators, we have the long tail of languages so that last person who's still speaking a near extinct language can still use Facebook.
有了宏观障碍，消除了语言障碍，所以也许我们采取的方法意味着我们支持 100 多种语言，而不是任何专业翻译人员，我们有语言的长尾，这样最后一个仍在说近乎灭绝的语言的人仍然可以使用 Facebook。
But yeah, I think that's right.
但是，是的，我认为这是对的。
I sometimes think that maybe some of our efforts were really more on the margin of a bigger trend around product-market fit.
我有时想，也许我们的一些努力实际上更多的是围绕产品市场契合度的更大趋势的边缘。
Lenny Rachitsky: Final little thing I would just want to highlight again that you said that I think is so important, and I've always thought is true and I love that you confirmed it, is that the activation metric that you all rallied around the biggest value of it wasn't this is exactly the right regression connection to retention, it's more that we have something we are all going to focus on, and that is where most of the impact comes from is let's get more people to that point, whether it's perfectly right or not, it doesn't really matter.
Lenny Rachitsky：我想再次强调的最后一点是，你说我认为非常重要，我一直认为这是真的，我喜欢你证实了这一点，那就是，你们所有人围绕其最大价值聚集起来的激活指标并不是与保留率完全正确的回归联系，更多的是我们有一些我们都将关注的东西，这就是大部分影响的来源，让我们让更多的人达到这一点，无论它是否完美对与错，其实并不重要。
Lenny Rachitsky: Love that.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：喜欢这个。
And I think that's really freeing to a lot of people because they're like, "Oh, we don't know if we're going to be as perfect about this versus let's just drive some growth and get people who are good enough thinking on that." Okay, great.
我认为这对很多人来说确实是一种自由，因为他们会说，“哦，我们不知道我们是否会在这方面做到完美，而不是让我们推动一些增长并让足够优秀的人思考这一点。”好的，太好了。
Lenny Rachitsky: You mentioned Naomi-isms, I want to segue to that.
Lenny Rachitsky：你提到了娜奥米主义，我想继续讨论这一点。
So let me first read a quote.
让我先读一段引言。
So I asked Adam Mosseri, who is Head of Instagram, what to ask you.
所以我问 Instagram 负责人 Adam Mosseri，该问你什么。
I know you guys work together on a bunch of stuff.
我知道你们在很多事情上一起工作。
Here's how he described you, "Naomi is called the conductor here at Meta.
他是这样描述你的：“内奥米在梅塔被称为指挥。
She has an incredible ability to handle the most complex projects and problems and bring the right people together to simplify and solve them.
她拥有令人难以置信的能力来处理最复杂的项目和问题，并将合适的人员聚集在一起简化和解决它们。
She is very firm yet kind.
她非常坚定又善良。
Her standards are extremely high, and she sets the bar." Also many other people that I messaged said very similar things about you, about how you're incredibly good at taking very complex problems and getting shit done, getting them done, simplifying them and getting them done.
她的标准非常高，并且她设定了标准。”我发消息的其他许多人也对你说了非常相似的事情，关于你如何非常擅长解决非常复杂的问题并完成任务，完成它们，简化它们并完成它们。
Lenny Rachitsky: So I want to spend some time understanding what you've learned about how to do this well.
Lenny Rachitsky：所以我想花一些时间了解您所学到的如何做好这件事。
What are the skills you've collected that allow you to take really complex problems and get to a solution, stay kind but firm and take on these really hard challenges?
您积累了哪些技能，可以让您解决非常复杂的问题并找到解决方案，保持友善但坚定并接受这些非常艰巨的挑战？
So maybe just broadly, I'm curious, what are some of these skills that you have built that allow you to do this?
所以也许从广义上讲，我很好奇，你已经建立了哪些技能可以让你做到这一点？
Naomi Gleit: Yeah, well also that's very kind of Adam.
Naomi Gleit：是的，Adam 也非常友善。
I adore Adam obviously, he is one of the tenured people in small group and I've actually gotten the opportunity to work even more closely with him than usual.
显然，我很喜欢亚当，他是小组中的终身教授之一，实际上我有机会与他比平时更密切地合作。
We recently launched something called Teen Accounts and Adam and I worked very closely on that.
我们最近推出了名为“青少年账户”的项目，我和 Adam 对此进行了密切合作。
Naomi Gleit: In terms of how I do the things people say that I can do, I really rely on Naomi-isms.
Naomi Gleit：就我如何做人们说我能做的事情而言，我真的依赖于 Naomi 主义。
Like I said, and actually I refer your podcast out a lot because there isn't just a PM university that I can send people to, there isn't a formal training that people can get to become a product manager, and that's where Naomi-isms came from.
就像我说的，实际上我经常推荐你的播客，因为我不仅可以派人去一所 PM 大学，也没有一个正式的培训可以让人们成为产品经理，而这就是 Naomi 主义的由来。
It was stuff that I learned on the job from other people, including from Adam, that I found myself repeating over and over again.
这是我在工作中从其他人（包括亚当）那里学到的东西，我发现自己一遍又一遍地重复这些东西。
"A good PM looks for a way to make that more efficient," for me, that was writing them down, people started calling them Naomi-isms.
“一个好的PM会寻找一种方法来提高效率，”对我来说，这就是把它们写下来，人们开始称它们为内奥米主义。
I started sharing them internally.
我开始在内部分享它们。
And then I think two years ago, I also started sharing them externally.
然后我想两年前，我也开始向外部分享它们。
Naomi Gleit: Adam referred to me as a conductor, that's one of the Naomi-isms, in my role as Head of Product, I want to educate the PM community about what is PM?
Naomi Gleit：Adam 将我称为指挥家，这是 Naomi 主义之一，在我作为产品主管的角色中，我想向 PM 社区介绍什么是 PM？
It's the most common question I get from PMs and non-PMs, "What do PMs do?
这是我从 PM 和非 PM 那里得到的最常见的问题：“PM 做什么？
What makes a great PM?" And what I say is a PM is a conductor.
是什么造就了一位伟大的总理？”我想说的是，PM 是指挥。
It's as though the team that you are a PM on is an orchestra.
就好像您担任 PM 的团队是一个管弦乐队。
There are many different functions in your team that includes legal policy, comms, data analytics, engineering, design, much like there are many different instruments in an orchestra.
您的团队中有许多不同的职能，包括法律政策、通信、数据分析、工程、设计，就像管弦乐队中有许多不同的乐器一样。
And as a PM, your job is to make sure everyone's playing their part correctly, every section in the orchestra is playing their part, but at the same time, they're playing together, they're unified in the music that they're producing and that they're playing at the right tempo.
作为PM，你的工作是确保每个人都正确地演奏自己的部分，管弦乐队中的每个部分都在演奏自己的部分，但同时，他们一起演奏，他们在制作的音乐中保持统一，并且以正确的节奏演奏。
Naomi Gleit: And a lot of times I think people use music analogies or vocabulary to describe the work, and that includes things like people being in harmony, like a good team, a good PM, a good orchestra is in harmony, they're in sync, they're at the right tempo, they have the right cadence.
Naomi Gleit：很多时候，我认为人们使用音乐类比或词汇来描述作品，其中包括人们和谐相处，比如一个好的团队、一个好的项目经理、一个好的管弦乐队，他们是和谐的，他们是同步的，他们处于正确的节奏，他们有正确的节奏。
That's sort of how I imagine what a PM does at work.
这就是我想象的 PM 在工作中所做的事情。
Important characteristics are the PM is not the star of the show.
重要的特征是总理不是节目的明星。
Indeed, conductors don't even say anything during the performance.
事实上，指挥家在演出过程中甚至什么也没说。
And also, I would at the same time give PMs little metronomes and conductor wands.
而且，我会同时给 PM们小节拍器和指挥棒。
This was something that I used to do when we were smaller., Just to sort of take the analogy way too far.
这是我在我们还小的时候经常做的事情，只是有点太过于类比了。
Lenny Rachitsky: That's so funny.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：这太有趣了。
You actually gave him conductor wands and metronomes?
你真的给了他指挥棒和节拍器？
Naomi Gleit: Oh yeah, just to wave around.
Naomi Gleit：哦，是的，只是为了挥手。
Yeah, I love that.
是的，我喜欢那个。
I would love a conductor wand.: This episode is brought to you by Eppo.
我想要一根指挥棒。：这一集是由 Eppo 为您带来的。
Eppo is a next generation A/B testing and feature management platform built by alums of Airbnb and Snowflake for modern growth teams.
Eppo 是由 Airbnb 和 Snowflake 的校友为现代增长团队构建的下一代 A/B 测试和功能管理平台。
Companies like Twitch, Miro, ClickUp and DraftKings rely on Eppo to power their experiments.
Twitch、Miro、ClickUp 和 DraftKings 等公司依靠 Eppo 来支持他们的实验。
Experimentation is increasingly essential for driving growth and for understanding the performance of new features.
实验对于推动增长和了解新功能的性能越来越重要。
And Eppo helps you increase experimentation velocity while unlocking rigorous deep analysis in a way that no other commercial tool does.
Eppo 可以帮助您提高实验速度，同时以其他商业工具无法做到的方式解锁严格的深度分析。
When I was at Airbnb, one of the things that I left most was our experimentation platform where could set up experiments easily, troubleshoot issues, and analyze performance all on my own.
当我在 Airbnb 时，我留下最深刻的东西之一就是我们的实验平台，在这里我可以轻松地设置实验、解决问题并分析性能，一切都由我自己完成。
Eppo does all that and more with advanced statistical methods that can help you shave weeks off experiment time, and accessible UI for diving deeper into performance and out of the box reporting that helps you avoid annoying prolonged analytic cycles.
Eppo 通过先进的统计方法来完成所有这些工作，可以帮助您缩短数周的实验时间，并且可访问的 UI 可以更深入地了解性能，而开箱即用的报告可以帮助您避免烦人的长时间分析周期。
Eppo also makes it easy for you to share experiment insight with your team, sparking new ideas for the A/B testing flywheel.
Eppo 还使您可以轻松地与您的团队分享实验见解，激发 A/B 测试飞轮的新想法。
Eppo powers experimentation across every use case, including product, growth, machine learning, monetization, and email marketing.
Eppo 为每个用例提供实验支持，包括产品、增长、机器学习、货币化和电子邮件营销。
Check out Eppo at geteppo.com/lenny and 10x your experiment velocity.
请访问 geteppo.com/lenny 查看 Eppo，将您的实验速度提高 10 倍。
That's geteppo.com/lenny.
那是 geteppo.com/lenny。
Naomi Gleit: So PM as conductor is sort of how I describe the product management function, but one of the key Naomi-isms that I think is really critical to getting stuff done is what I call extreme clarity.
Naomi Gleit：所以 PM 作为指挥是我描述产品管理功能的方式，但我认为对完成工作至关重要的 Naomi 主义之一是我所说的极度清晰。
I think our jobs are super hard.
我认为我们的工作非常辛苦。
Extreme clarity means everyone's on the same page.
极其清晰意味着每个人都在同一页面上。
It definitely doesn't mean that they all agree with each other, but they just have the same understanding of the facts.
这绝对不意味着他们都同意彼此，只是他们对事实的理解是一致的。
So we can disagree, but we all believe in the facts, which is that there's A, B, C, our options are X, Y, Z and here are the trade-offs 1, 2, 3.
所以我们可以不同意，但我们都相信事实，那就是有 A、B、C，我们的选择是 X、Y、Z，这里是权衡 1、2、3。
That kind of shared understanding is what extreme clarity is.
这种共同的理解就是极度清晰。
Naomi Gleit: That came from a place of just being in many meetings, on many emails, in many situations where I felt like we actually agree on something, the nature of this conflict is a result of misunderstanding.
Naomi Gleit：这来自于在许多会议、许多电子邮件、许多情况下，我觉得我们实际上在某些事情上达成了一致，这种冲突的本质是误解的结果。
And that seems like an incredible waste of time.
这似乎是一种令人难以置信的时间浪费。
And so we want to have extreme clarity so we can just focus our conversations on things when we actually agree, not when we are misunderstanding each other.
因此，我们想要非常清晰，这样我们就可以在我们真正同意的情况下将谈话重点放在事情上，而不是在我们互相误解时。
There are a lot of tactics that I use to drive extreme clarity.
我使用了很多策略来提高清晰度。
Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, I was going to ask how you do that, that sounds great.
Lenny Rachitsky：是的，我想问你是怎么做到的，听起来很棒。
Naomi Gleit: ...
娜奥米·格莱特：...
Tactics that I use to drive extreme clarity.
我用来提高清晰度的策略。
Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, I was going to ask how do you do that.
Lenny Rachitsky：是的，我想问你是怎么做到的。
That sounds great.
听起来很棒。
How does one get to extreme clarity?
一个人怎样才能达到极致的清晰度呢？
Naomi Gleit: So another name I'm using is canonical everything, so that includes canonical nomenclature, I often talk about canonical nomenclature.
Naomi Gleit：所以我使用的另一个名称是规范的一切，因此包括规范命名法，我经常谈论规范命名法。
One way to ensure extreme clarity is we have the shared vocabulary.
确保极度清晰度的一种方法是我们拥有共享词汇。
I've been in a lot of situations where people are using the same or different words to describe the same or different things, which results in talking past each other.
我遇到过很多情况，人们使用相同或不同的词语来描述相同或不同的事物，这导致了彼此的谈话。
One of the most egregious examples of this is when I was working, I was in a conversation around how our reviewers and global operations were performing, and we were using consistency and accuracy interchangeably.
最令人震惊的例子之一是当我工作时，我正在讨论我们的审阅者和全球运营的表现，并且我们交替使用一致性和准确性。
Consistency refers to how often different reviewers agree on the decision.
一致性是指不同审稿人对决定达成一致的频率。
Accuracy refers to how often the decision is correct according to ground truth.
准确性是指根据基本事实做出的决定正确的频率。
Those are very different things.
这些是非常不同的事情。
We don't want to optimize for consistency because you could be consistently wrong.
我们不想为了一致性而优化，因为你可能会一直出错。
We want to optimize for accuracy.
我们想要优化准确性。
Naomi Gleit: And so that is what canonical nomenclature is literally writing out all the words in their definitions, so when we communicate, we are using the same vocabulary.
Naomi Gleit：这就是规范命名法从字面上写出定义中的所有单词，所以当我们交流时，我们使用相同的词汇。
I really believe in visuals.
我真的相信视觉效果。
I think sometimes just having a conversation or a big meeting where people are talking, I'm just not very auditory, I'm a very visual person, it's hard for me to follow along just by listening.
我想有时候只是进行一场谈话或一个人们在说话的大型会议，我只是听觉不太好，我是一个视觉性很强的人，我很难仅仅通过倾听来跟上。
I will often have a visual in a meeting.
我经常在会议中看到视觉。
I will leverage that visual to literally real time edit what is being decided.
我将利用该视觉效果来实时编辑正在决定的内容。
For example, if we have multiple options, I will edit the slide that's being projected to say, "We decided on option one, here are the next steps, 1, 2, 3." A lot of times people are saying, "That's not what I heard.
例如，如果我们有多个选项，我将编辑正在投影的幻灯片，说：“我们决定选择一，这是接下来的步骤，1、2、3。”很多时候人们会说：“这不是我听到的。
I heard this as a next step, or I heard that as a next step." I love that because that avoids leaving the meeting and being like, "I don't know what we agreed to.
我听说这是下一步，或者我听说这是下一步。”我喜欢这样，因为这样可以避免离开会议时说“我不知道我们同意了什么。
I heard this, you heard that." No, actually we haven't agreed upon set of decisions and next steps that we all real time edited and looked at together.
我听到了这个，你也听到了。”不，实际上我们还没有就我们实时编辑和共同研究的一系列决策和后续步骤达成一致。
Lenny Rachitsky: Just to double click on that one real quick, so what you're describing for the visual is you're presenting here's our options, here's our three options on a slide.
Lenny Rachitsky：只需快速双击该选项，您所描述的视觉效果就是您在此处展示我们的选项，这是我们在幻灯片上的三个选项。
You all decide we're going to go with option two, you edit the slide with a star, here's what we chose, and then maybe change some stuff.
你们都决定我们要采用选项二，您用星号编辑幻灯片，这就是我们选择的内容，然后可能会更改一些内容。
And this is exactly to your point of extreme clarity, people can see clearly this is what we're choosing.
这正是你所说的极其清晰的观点，人们可以清楚地看到这就是我们所选择的。
If they disagree and don't realize that's what's happening, it'll be really clear.
如果他们不同意并且没有意识到正在发生的事情，那么事情就会非常清楚。
Naomi Gleit: And one thing people make fun of me a lot for that I think is just a great example of extreme clarity is I never use bulleted lists because you can never refer to a bullet.
Naomi Gleit：人们经常取笑我，因为我认为这是一个非常清晰的例子，我从不使用项目符号列表，因为你永远无法引用项目符号。
I always use numbered lists because you can always in the visual in a meeting as referenced in number two, I have feedback on that, versus the third bullet, two up from the second, whatever, that is not extreme clarity.
我总是使用编号列表，因为你总是可以在会议中看到第二个提到的视觉效果，我对此有反馈，与第三个项目符号相比，从第二个项目符号开始有两个，无论如何，这不是非常清晰。
So it's very, very small tactical things to bigger things like canonical everything.
所以这是非常非常小的战术事情到更大的事情，比如规范的一切。
But I can be a little bit strict.
但我可以严格一点。
Lenny Rachitsky: I love that very tactical tip and that is awesome, that's exactly the stuff I look for.
Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢这个非常有策略的技巧，这太棒了，这正是我所寻找的东西。
Is there any other very nuanced tip along those lines that is helpful in extreme clarity or canonical everything?
是否还有其他非常细致的提示有助于使一切变得极其清晰或规范？
Naomi Gleit: Canonical everything...
Naomi Gleit：规范一切......
And stop me if I'm getting too wonky, I can really get into this.
如果我变得太古怪，请阻止我，我真的可以参与其中。
Naomi Gleit: When I had a face bursary, along the years people have given me posters and the posters say these Naomi-ism, so extreme clarity is one, canonical everything is another.
Naomi Gleit：当我获得面部助学金时，多年来人们给了我海报，海报上写着这些 Naomi 主义，所以极端清晰是一回事，规范的一切是另一回事。
I think people really associate me with canonical, canonical, canonical.
我认为人们真的将我与规范、规范、规范联系在一起。
I always want a canonical doc.
我一直想要一个规范的文档。
This came from a place of me I work on a lot of different projects, a lot of times I'm ramping up mid-project, I'm like, "Where can I learn what I need to learn about this project?" I ask five different people, get five different answers, that is unacceptable.
这来自于我的一个地方，我从事很多不同的项目，很多时候我在项目中期加速，我想，“我在哪里可以学到关于这个项目的知识？”我问五个不同的人，得到五个不同的答案，这是不可接受的。
Everyone should know exactly where the canonical doc is.
每个人都应该确切地知道规范文档在哪里。
That's the one place I can go to get all the information I need about a project and it will link to all the other docs.
这是我可以获取有关项目所需的所有信息的地方，并且它将链接到所有其他文档。
Of course, I'm sure there's hundreds of docs associated with the project, but there needs to be one canonical doc, and that canonical doc really has to have the basic information that you need to know.
当然，我确信有数百个文档与该项目相关，但需要有一个规范文档，并且该规范文档确实必须具有您需要了解的基本信息。
Naomi Gleit: For any project, the basic information that you need to know is what are the discrete areas of work, I call those work streams, this is pretty obvious.
Naomi Gleit：对于任何项目，你需要了解的基本信息是什么是离散的工作领域，我称之为工作流，这是非常明显的。
Who are the owners on those work streams?
这些工作流的所有者是谁？
So for every work stream there's an owner.
因此，每个工作流都有一个所有者。
Again, it seems pretty obvious.
同样，这似乎很明显。
Sometimes I'm like, "Who's owning this?" And it's like people don't know.
有时我会想，“这是谁的？”而且好像人们不知道一样。
That's why I think it's very important to have a single-threaded owner.
这就是为什么我认为拥有一个单线程所有者非常重要。
We used to call this a directly responsible individual or a throat to choke.
我们过去称其为“直接责任人”或“窒息者”。
We obviously don't say that anymore.
我们显然不再这么说了。
Single-threaded owner, every work stream has a single-threaded owner.
单线程所有者，每个工作流都有一个单线程所有者。
Sometimes work streams are really big.
有时工作量确实很大。
You have sub work streams underneath them.
它们下面有子工作流。
Everything canonical needs to recurse, so you should have an owner or an STO for the sub work stream.
所有规范都需要递归，因此您应该为子工作流拥有一个所有者或 STO。
The other things on the canonical doc are what is the process by which the people on this team work together.
规范文档中的其他内容是该团队中的人员一起工作的流程。
Naomi Gleit: I hate pairwise conversations.
Naomi Gleit：我讨厌成对对话。
I feel like they're a waste of time.
我觉得他们是在浪费时间。
I feel like you could have four conversations with four different people or one conversation with all four people.
我觉得你可以与四个不同的人进行四次对话，或者与所有四个人进行一次对话。
Everyone has the same context.
每个人都有相同的背景。
Ideally there's a visual in that meeting and you real time edited it, there is extreme clarity.
理想情况下，会议中有一个视觉效果，并且您可以对其进行实时编辑，因此非常清晰。
The canonical doc will have what is the canonical meetings that people have, what is the canonical email list that you're going to use, what is the canonical workplace chat.
规范文档将包含人们举行的规范会议是什么、您将使用的规范电子邮件列表是什么、规范的工作场所聊天是什么。
Let's not reinvent the same audience 10 different times with different permutations of the people on the working team.
我们不要用工作团队中人员的不同排列来重复 10 次相同的受众。
Let's just have one canonical chat.
让我们进行一次规范的聊天。
And then often the canonical doc will have the canonical nomenclature.
然后规范文档通常会有规范术语。
I really believe in frameworks for things that helps drive extreme clarity.
我真的相信框架可以帮助提高清晰度。
A framework is best understood when there's a visual representation of the framework in my mind, and so we'll have canonical visuals and that's what I mean by canonical everything.
当我脑海中存在框架的视觉表示时，框架就可以得到最好的理解，因此我们将拥有规范的视觉效果，这就是我所说的规范的一切。
So anytime I start on a new project, everyone knows to send me the canonical doc.
因此，每当我开始一个新项目时，每个人都知道向我发送规范文档。
Lenny Rachitsky: I love this.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢这个。
If you come into a that you've given that's really gnarly and complex, what do you find are the first couple things you do that make a big dent on helping everyone align and understand what happens, what they should be doing and what they should be prioritizing?
如果你遇到了一个非常棘手和复杂的问题，你会发现你做的头几件事对帮助每个人协调和理解发生的事情、他们应该做什么以及他们应该优先考虑什么产生了很大的影响？
Naomi Gleit: A lot of times I'm simplifying.
Naomi Gleit：很多时候我都在简化。
A lot of times there isn't a canonical doc and so I'll go through the process of creating that, but I think that really falls under the simplification thing.
很多时候没有规范的文档，所以我将完成创建它的过程，但我认为这确实属于简化的范围。
I often go into a project, everyone's operating at a PhD level, I'm coming in at a kindergarten level, and so I need to understand...
我经常参与一个项目，每个人都是博士级别的，我是幼儿园级别的，所以我需要了解......
It's almost like all of this complexity we're at a PhD level, I need to create the curriculum, go back to basic building blocks for the kindergarten level, how do I explain that and understand this project at a kindergarten level.
这几乎就像我们处于博士学位级别的所有这些复杂性一样，我需要创建课程，回到幼儿园级别的基本构建模块，我如何在幼儿园级别解释并理解这个项目。
It doesn't mean I want to oversimplify, that's not what a simplifier does.
这并不意味着我想过度简化，这不是简化器所做的。
They're not oversimplifying, but what they are doing is identifying the most basic building blocks of a complex problem and then unfolding, or revealing or building on top of them additional complexity and details as you go along.
他们并没有过度简化，但他们所做的是确定一个复杂问题的最基本的组成部分，然后在进行过程中展开、揭示或在它们之上构建额外的复杂性和细节。
Naomi Gleit: And so sometimes I talk about a school pyramid, but I need to establish the kindergarten curriculum and then the elementary school curriculum and then the high school curriculum and then the college curriculum, and then we can operate at the PhD level.
Naomi Gleit：所以有时我会谈论学校金字塔，但我需要建立幼儿园课程，然后是小学课程，然后是高中课程，然后是大学课程，然后我们可以在博士级别运作。
But oftentimes people on the project are at really different levels of understanding or complexity.
但项目中的人们常常处于不同的理解水平或复杂程度。
And until we have what we call the school pyramid, the curriculums for every level of the project, it's really hard to make progress.
在我们拥有所谓的学校金字塔、项目各个级别的课程之前，要取得进展真的很难。
A lot of times that process of simplification will often identify what are the most important things to deal with on the project.
很多时候，简化过程通常会确定项目中需要处理的最重要的事情是什么。
Lenny Rachitsky: And so what I'm hearing is when you come into a project and the way you simplify is you start putting together a doc that describes these things you're talking about, here's the work streams, here's the owners, here's the process, here's our canonical meeting style, and that reveals here's what matters most and where there's confusion.
Lenny Rachitsky：所以我听到的是，当你进入一个项目时，你简化的方式就是开始编写一个文档来描述你正在谈论的这些事情，这是工作流程，这是所有者，这是流程，这是我们规范的会议风格，这揭示了最重要的事情和混乱的地方。
Naomi Gleit: Yes, yes.
内奥米·格莱特：是的，是的。
Yeah, that is.
是的，就是这样。
And a lot of times what needs to happen in the project is sometimes there's a strategy or an execution issue and sometimes there's a people or a process issue.
很多时候，项目中需要发生的事情有时是策略或执行问题，有时是人员或流程问题。
I would say 80% of the time I think it's a people or process issue.
我想说，80% 的情况下，我认为这是人员或流程问题。
And that refers to not having the right people on the project, or having the right people but not having the right process by which they work together, a strategy or execution issue.
这指的是项目中没有合适的人员，或者有合适的人员但没有正确的流程来共同工作，这是一个战略或执行问题。
When we get to that, I first try to tackle those or in general I think it's really important to have perfect execution.
当我们做到这一点时，我首先尝试解决这些问题，或者总的来说，我认为拥有完美的执行力非常重要。
I want to make sure a project is perfectly executing, because only then can we really reevaluate whether or not this strategy is right or wrong.
我想确保一个项目能够完美执行，因为只有这样我们才能真正重新评估这个策略是对还是错。
We're in the worst of all worlds where we are imperfectly executing and therefore, at the end of the day, the project might fail, but we don't know why.
我们正处于世界上最糟糕的境地，我们的执行不完美，因此，到最后，项目可能会失败，但我们不知道为什么。
Naomi Gleit: Is it because the strategy was right or wrong or is it because the execution was poor?
Naomi Gleit：是因为策略对还是错，还是因为执行力差？
The ideal case is the strategy was right and you perfectly executed on it.
理想的情况是策略是正确的并且你完美地执行了它。
The next best case scenario is the strategy was wrong, but you perfectly executed on it, because then you learned the strategy was wrong.
下一个最好的情况是策略是错误的，但你完美地执行了它，因为然后你就知道策略是错误的。
Revamp the strategy and try again.
修改策略并重试。
Lenny Rachitsky: You're really in the PM part of my brain.
Lenny Rachitsky：你真的是我大脑中的 PM 部分。
I feel like most PMs listening are like it has clean documents, really simple processes, there's one person to charge, it links to everything.
我觉得大多数 PM 听后都觉得它有干净的文档，非常简单的流程，只有一个人负责，它链接到所有内容。
It just feels good.
感觉很好。
Naomi Gleit: Totally.
内奥米·格莱特：完全可以。
And, again, sometimes I feel the need to defend that the process is not for process' sake, it's ultimately to help us all move faster and work better.
而且，有时我觉得有必要捍卫这一过程不是为了过程，它最终是为了帮助我们所有人更快地行动、更好地工作。
So hopefully that comes through.
所以希望这能成功。
But I deeply believe that it is through this approach that we can move faster.
但我坚信，通过这种方法，我们可以走得更快。
And you have to prove that nobody wants more process and more meetings and more, but my goal is that with this we're actually simplifying process and getting less meetings and just making things clearer and ultimately moving faster.
你必须证明没有人想要更多的流程和更多的会议等等，但我的目标是，通过这个，我们实际上简化了流程，减少了会议，只是让事情变得更清晰，最终进展得更快。
Lenny Rachitsky: I'm going to read another quote from another one of your co-workers, Charles Porch, he's vice president of global partnerships at Instagram and he basically said what we've been talking about, some of the biggest strategic bets and biggest swings Meta has made have had Naomi at the helm.
Lenny Rachitsky：我要读一下你的另一位同事 Charles Porch 的另一句话，他是 Instagram 全球合作伙伴关系副总裁，他基本上说了我们一直在谈论的内容，Meta 做出的一些最大的战略赌注和最大的波动都是由 Naomi 掌舵的。
No one can hurt cats, drive clarity, and get to outcomes more seamlessly than she can.
没有人能比她更能伤害猫、推动思路清晰、更顺利地取得成果。
She's legendary within Meta for her canonical documents.
她因其规范文档而在 Meta 中享有盛誉。
Lenny Rachitsky: Maybe just following this thread a little bit further, what's the gnarliest project that you've worked on that would be a good example of you coming in and helping simplify and get it over the finish line?
Lenny Rachitsky：也许只是进一步关注这个主题，您从事过的最棘手的项目是什么，这将是您参与并帮助简化并完成任务的一个很好的例子？
Naomi Gleit: Well, Charles may be thinking of the most recent project that we worked on.
Naomi Gleit：嗯，查尔斯可能正在考虑我们最近进行的项目。
I don't know if it's necessarily the gnarliest, but it's definitely one of the most cross-functional projects that I've worked on before.
我不知道它是否一定是最粗糙的，但它绝对是我以前从事过的跨职能项目之一。
Basically every team at the company in some way works on youth.
基本上，公司的每个团队都以某种方式致力于青年人的工作。
And last week we actually launched teen accounts, which was a very complex project.
上周我们实际上推出了青少年账户，这是一个非常复杂的项目。
Again, it involved the Instagram team, the central youth team, the different teams working on various aspects of this, every function, legal policy, comms, marketing product.
同样，它涉及 Instagram 团队、中央青年团队、负责各个方面、每个职能、法律政策、通讯、营销产品的不同团队。
And I think we definitely leveraged a lot of these Naomi-isms.
我认为我们确实利用了很多这样的内奥米主义。
And just to give you a sense of what teen accounts is, it was basically putting all teens into the safest settings by default on Instagram.
为了让您了解什么是青少年帐户，它基本上是在 Instagram 默认情况下将所有青少年置于最安全的设置中。
And the reason I'm working on this, I work across multiple teams at Facebook, so obviously Adam is the head of Instagram and I work closely with him on this, like I was referring to yesterday.
我之所以从事这项工作，是因为我在 Facebook 的多个团队中工作，所以显然 Adam 是 Instagram 的负责人，我在这方面与他密切合作，就像我昨天提到的那样。
Naomi Gleit: But this is something, these teen accounts, is something that we are thinking about how we expand to the other apps that we have, including Facebook and WhatsApp and Threads.
Naomi Gleit：但我们正在考虑如何将这些青少年帐户扩展到我们拥有的其他应用程序，包括 Facebook、WhatsApp 和 Threads。
And I tend to work on projects that are across our family of apps and future platforms, and that's why I was involved in this.
我倾向于从事跨我们的应用程序系列和未来平台的项目，这就是我参与其中的原因。
But basically what teen accounts does is put teens in these safest settings.
但基本上，青少年账户的作用就是将青少年置于最安全的环境中。
It's super focused on trying to address parents' biggest concerns around their teens on social media.
它非常专注于解决父母在社交媒体上对青少年最关心的问题。
This has obviously been a really big topic.
这显然是一个非常大的话题。
We've had a lot of these features and tools.
我们已经拥有很多这样的功能和工具。
What this launch did is simplify things, standardize things, and add a lot more functionality that gives parents control.
这次发布所做的就是简化事情、标准化事情，并添加更多功能来让家长进行控制。
Naomi Gleit: I think the thing you really need to know is that for under 16-year-olds, if they want to change any of these defaults, they're going to have to get their parents' permission.
Naomi Gleit：我认为你真正需要知道的是，对于 16 岁以下的人来说，如果他们想要改变任何这些默认设置，他们必须获得父母的许可。
And so it's interesting that we're really going to create an incentive for teens to get their parents involved and to actually set up parental supervision, especially because one of the default settings is a private account.
因此，有趣的是，我们确实要为青少年提供激励措施，让他们的父母参与其中，并真正建立家长监督，特别是因为默认设置之一是私人帐户。
So there's tens of millions of teens that currently have public accounts today that we are going to automatically transition to private accounts unless they get their parents' permission to stay public.
因此，目前有数千万青少年拥有公共帐户，我们将自动将其转换为私人帐户，除非他们得到父母的许可以保持公开状态。
And so it's a relatively big shift, fundamental change for how Instagram works for teens, and I would say one of the more complicated projects that I've worked.
所以这是一个相对较大的转变，对于 Instagram 为青少年服务的方式发生了根本性的变化，我想说这是我做过的更复杂的项目之一。
Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, and it just launched, right?
Lenny Rachitsky：是的，它刚刚推出，对吧？
Lenny Rachitsky: As a new father, I'm excited for you all to be working on these sorts of things.
Lenny Rachitsky：作为一名新父亲，我很高兴你们所有人都致力于这些事情。
I don't need it yet, but I'm glad it's going to be there.
我还不需要它，但我很高兴它会在那里。
And it's funny how Meta and Facebook is in this world where people complain about teens using social media and then you work on making the product better for teens and kids using social media, and then it's like, "Facebook's getting teens on social media." There's no way to make it feel good to people.
有趣的是，Meta 和 Facebook 在这个人们抱怨青少年使用社交媒体的世界里，然后你致力于让产品更好地适合使用社交媒体的青少年和儿童，然后就像是，“Facebook 正在让青少年使用社交媒体。”没有办法让人们感觉良好。
No matter what you do, people are going to complain.
不管你做什么，人们都会抱怨。
That's what-
就是这样——
Naomi Gleit: Totally.
内奥米·格莱特：完全可以。
And I think the goal of this launch was to orient ourselves and really there's a lot of complaints, there's a lot of different voices.
我认为这次发布的目标是让我们自己定位，确实有很多抱怨，有很多不同的声音。
I think we just are focused on parents.
我认为我们只是关注父母。
We think parents know best.
我们认为父母最了解。
Every kid is different and parents know their own kid the best.
每个孩子都是不同的，父母最了解自己的孩子。
So that has been our north star in terms of the approach here.
因此，就这里的方法而言，这一直是我们的北极星。
When I talk about teen accounts, as product people I think one thing that you would appreciate is the thing that I think is really important when it comes to teens on the internet is really having an understanding of how old someone is when they're using our apps.
当我谈论青少年帐户时，作为产品人员，我认为您会欣赏的一件事是，我认为对于互联网上的青少年来说，真正重要的是真正了解某人使用我们的应用程序时的年龄。
And it's important that we know how old they are because then we can put them in an age-appropriate experience.
重要的是我们知道他们的年龄，因为这样我们就可以为他们提供适合年龄的体验。
So now we have teen accounts, we want to put all teens into teen accounts.
所以现在我们有了青少年账户，我们希望将所有青少年都放入青少年账户中。
Naomi Gleit: We all know sometimes teens lie.
Naomi Gleit：我们都知道青少年有时会撒谎。
That's been the biggest feedback that we've been getting is teens are really smart, they're going to find workarounds, they're going to be creative, they're going to lie about their age.
我们得到的最大反馈是青少年非常聪明，他们会找到解决方法，他们会富有创造力，他们会谎报自己的年龄。
And as a product person, the way that I think this should really work is that instead of everyone entering...
作为一名产品人员，我认为这应该真正起作用的方式是，而不是每个人都进入......
Teens use, on average, 40 apps, instead of Instagram and the other 39 apps that teens use trying to verify the age of the person using their app is for two companies to do this, which is Apple and Google, they do collect the age, they should make that available to developers.
青少年平均使用 40 个应用程序，而不是 Instagram 和其他 39 个应用程序，青少年使用这些应用程序来验证使用其应用程序的人的年龄，这是由两家公司来做的，即苹果和谷歌，他们确实收集了年龄，他们应该将其提供给开发者。
And we ask for information from the device all the time with user consent, can Instagram have access to your camera, can Instagram have access to your location information?
在用户同意的情况下，我们一直要求设备提供信息，Instagram 可以访问您的相机吗？Instagram 可以访问您的位置信息吗？
Apps should be able to ask, can Instagram have access to your birthday?
应用程序应该能够询问，Instagram 可以访问你的生日吗？
And that would, I think, elegantly from a product perspective, from a simplification perspective, from a privacy preserving perspective and what's easiest for parents, that would be the right product solution to solve this problem around age that we're all trying to grapple with right now.
我认为，从产品的角度、从简化的角度、从保护隐私的角度以及对父母来说最容易的角度来看，这将是解决我们现在都在努力解决的年龄问题的正确产品解决方案。
Naomi Gleit: And there's a lot of stuff that we're doing.
Naomi Gleit：我们正在做很多事情。
Part of the reason that this project was so complicated, and I mentioned the age team, is we're building classifiers to try to predict how old people are based on not just the age that they've stated, but based on who they're talking to, what kind of content they're looking at, what the age of the people they're connected to is, do we think that this is actually an adult like they say, or is it really a teen.
这个项目如此复杂的部分原因是，我提到了年龄团队，我们正在构建分类器来尝试预测人们的年龄，不仅基于他们所说的年龄，还基于他们正在与谁交谈，他们正在看什么类型的内容，他们所联系的人的年龄是多少，我们是否认为这实际上是他们所说的成年人，还是真的是青少年。
And so we're doing a lot to try to predict age or prevent people from lying about their age, but I think this would be a really big win for the industry.
因此，我们正在做很多事情来尝试预测年龄或防止人们谎报年龄，但我认为这对于该行业来说将是一个真正的巨大胜利。
Lenny Rachitsky: So to close out this portion in this chapter of our conversation on Naomi-isms, I know something else that you're really good at that I've heard from a few people is running meetings, something that a lot of people always want to get better at.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：为了结束我们关于娜奥米主义的对话这一章的这一部分，我知道你真正擅长的另一件事是我从一些人那里听说的，那就是主持会议，这是很多人总是想做得更好的事情。
Any tips?
有什么建议吗？
What have you learned about running a great meeting?
关于举办一场精彩的会议，您学到了什么？
Naomi Gleit: A meeting is a high value and it's high cost amount of time, and then I want to make sure it's as productive as possible.
Naomi Gleit：会议价值很高，时间成本也很高，所以我想确保会议尽可能富有成效。
What I will do is send an agenda 24 hours prior to the meeting.
我要做的是在会议前 24 小时发送议程。
That agenda will include a pre-read.
该议程将包括预读。
I've talked to people who if the pre-read is not attached to the calendar invite or associated with a meeting at least 24 hours in advance, they will cancel the meeting.
我曾与一些人交谈过，如果预读未提前至少 24 小时附加到日历邀请中或与会议相关联，他们就会取消会议。
That just goes to show we want everybody in the meeting to have full context, have read the pre-read.
这只是表明我们希望会议中的每个人都了解完整的背景信息，并阅读了预读内容。
Often what will happen in the previous 24 hours is because we're all sending pre-reads on Google Slides, there will be a lot of conversation and questions that get hashed out leading up to the meeting.
通常，过去 24 小时内会发生的情况是，因为我们都在 Google 幻灯片上发送预读内容，所以在会议之前会讨论大量的对话和问题。
During the meeting, like I said, I think it's really important for a group of people to be looking at something and anchoring people on something.
在会议期间，就像我说的，我认为对于一群人来说，关注某件事并将人们固定在某件事上非常重要。
Naomi Gleit: If somebody joins the meeting, say, five minutes late, they should know exactly where in the agenda you are in the meeting and what is being discussed based on catching up from the visual that's being projected.
Naomi Gleit：如果有人加入会议，比如说迟到了五分钟，他们应该根据正在投影的视觉效果准确地知道您在会议议程中的位置以及正在讨论的内容。
Usually a meeting can be and hopefully a meeting is really either is a decision meeting.
通常，会议可以是决策会议，并且希望会议实际上是决策会议。
So if there is a decision, I need three options and I need a recommendation that should hopefully help focus the meeting.
因此，如果有决定，我需要三个选择，并且需要一个建议，希望能够帮助会议集中注意力。
And then, like I said, I will real-time edit the visual such that we document and have extreme clarity on what is the option that we agreed on and any next steps that we also agreed to.
然后，就像我说的，我将实时编辑视觉效果，以便我们记录并非常清楚我们同意的选项是什么以及我们也同意的任何后续步骤。
Naomi Gleit: After the meeting, anyone who wasn't in the meeting, that's fine because within 24 hours post-meeting I will send the notes, reply all to the meeting invite and send the notes.
Naomi Gleit：会议结束后，任何未参加会议的人都可以，因为在会议后 24 小时内我将发送笔记、回复所有会议邀请并发送笔记。
So just tactically, I use the calendar invite as the canonical unit by which to handle all of this communication because a lot of times meetings are one-offs, there isn't an existing email or chat thread that maps perfectly to the audience of the meeting, so for me that is the meeting or the calendar invite.
因此，从战术上讲，我使用日历邀请作为处理所有此类通信的规范单位，因为很多时候会议都是一次性的，没有现有的电子邮件或聊天线程可以完美地映射到会议的受众，所以对我来说，这就是会议或日历邀请。
So I'll click on the calendar invite, reply all, include the pre-read, pre-meeting, and then do this reply all again post-meeting 24 hours with the notes and the decisions and the next steps.
因此，我将单击日历邀请，回复所有内容，包括预读内容、会前内容，然后在会后 24 小时内再次回复所有内容，并附上笔记、决定和后续步骤。
Lenny Rachitsky: I love this.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢这个。
So many very specific tactics here.
这里有很多非常具体的策略。
I love it.
我喜欢它。
This is food for my brain.
这是我大脑的食物。
I love the always have three options and a recommendation, that's such a simple thing to recommend, but such a powerful way of operating as a PM, just like, "Here are the options, here's what I recommend, here's why."
我喜欢总是有三个选项和一个建议，这是一个非常简单的建议，但却是作为 PM 的一种强大的运作方式，就像，“这是选项，这是我推荐的，这就是原因。”
Naomi Gleit: Oh, one thing I forgot that I learned from Guy Rosen, he is our chief security officer, is when you have three options and a recommendation, in terms of evaluating the options, I don't love pros and cons.
Naomi Gleit：哦，我忘记了我从盖伊·罗森（Guy Rosen）那里学到的一件事，他是我们的首席安全官，当你有三个选择和一个建议时，在评估选项方面，我不喜欢利弊。
It's a flat list of text.
这是一个简单的文本列表。
It's hard to just get the big picture from that.
很难从中了解全局。
Oftentimes we'll use a traffic light.
我们经常会使用交通信号灯。
That means that the three options are three rows.
这意味着三个选项是三行。
The columns in the table will be criteria by which to evaluate the options.
表中的列将作为评估选项的标准。
Those could either be functions.
这些都可以是函数。
So for example, if I have three options as the rows, column one could be the legal perspective, column two could be the policy perspective, column three could be the privacy or product perspective.
例如，如果我有三个选项作为行，第一列可能是法律角度，第二列可能是政策角度，第三列可能是隐私或产品角度。
Alternatively, the columns could map to different criteria like what we're optimizing for.
或者，这些列可以映射到不同的标准，例如我们正在优化的标准。
So it could be the user experience, it could be the engineering feasibility, it could be the internal complexity, whatever are the criteria should be laid out in the columns.
因此，它可能是用户体验，可能是工程可行性，也可能是内部复杂性，无论列中应该列出什么标准。
Naomi Gleit: And then obviously it should be color-coded, red, yellow, green based on how it stacks up against those criteria.
Naomi Gleit：显然，它应该根据它与这些标准的比较来进行颜色编码，红色、黄色、绿色。
And what this allows is to get back to the point of the visual is you can quickly look at the three options, see where's the most red, and rule that out.
这允许我们回到视觉的重点，你可以快速查看三个选项，看看哪里最红，然后排除它。
Ideally, the recommendation has some combination of the more green or yellow than the other options.
理想情况下，该建议具有比其他选项更绿色或更黄色的某种组合。
And then obviously within these cells you can spell out the specific rationale for the coloring.
然后显然在这些单元格中您可以阐明着色的具体原理。
But I think this is a really good way to run a meeting and just create extreme clarity around how you're evaluating the options in a way that a flat list of pros and cons just doesn't.
但我认为这是召开会议的一种非常好的方式，并且可以以一种简单的利弊列表所无法做到的方式，让你如何评估选项变得极其清晰。
Lenny Rachitsky: What other podcasts would have this level of detail of how to run a discussion on a decision?
Lenny Rachitsky：还有哪些播客能够如此详细地介绍如何对决策进行讨论？
And this is exactly what people want to hear, so I love it.
这正是人们想听到的，所以我喜欢它。
So product market fit for listeners of this podcast.
因此产品市场适合该播客的听众。
I love it.
我喜欢它。
I love it.
我喜欢它。
And obviously the reason this is more effective is it's not just like, "Here's a quick sentence on the pro and con." It's like, "Here's what I actually think this is good or bad for the things that matter to the business."
显然，这更有效的原因是它不仅仅是“这是一个关于赞成和反对的简短句子”。就像，“这就是我实际上认为这对于对业务重要的事情来说是好事还是坏事。”
Naomi Gleit: It also gives people a framework to plug into.
Naomi Gleit：它还为人们提供了一个可以插入的框架。
A lot of times the creation of a pre-read for these discussions involves many different people from many different teams and functions.
很多时候，为这些讨论创建预读会涉及来自许多不同团队和职能的许多不同人员。
If you have a traffic light, they can own filling out their cell, they can own the rationale behind the legal position on option one, two, and three.
如果你有交通灯，他们可以自己填写自己的单元格，他们可以拥有选项一、二和三的合法立场背后的基本原理。
And, in general, I'm super into frameworks that allow people to plug into and clearly represent their point of view.
而且，总的来说，我非常喜欢允许人们插入并清楚地表达他们的观点的框架。
Lenny Rachitsky: I love it.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢它。
Final question, completely different topic.
最后一个问题，完全不同的主题。
I saw a Wall Street Journal story about how you exercise and your exercise regimen, and how important that is to your life and career.
我看到《华尔街日报》的一篇报道，讲述了你如何锻炼和你的锻炼方案，以及这对你的生活和职业有多重要。
Now, most people don't have a Wall Street Journal story about their exercise regimen, especially a tech worker.
现在，大多数人都没有《华尔街日报》关于他们锻炼养生的报道，尤其是科技工作者。
And I know this is just important to your work, and they wrote that this basically helps you become better at your job.
我知道这对你的工作很重要，他们写道，这基本上可以帮助你更好地完成工作。
Any advice there for folks that want to lean into exercise, exercise more for how to actually do that?
对于那些想要锻炼、更多地锻炼的人来说，有什么建议可以实际做到这一点吗？
Because your advice is this actually makes you better at work and life.
因为您的建议实际上会让您在工作和生活中变得更好。
Naomi Gleit: People are always like, "What are you training for?" And I'm like, "I'm training for life." I have four musties, it is eat, sleep a long time, and exercise.
Naomi Gleit：人们总是会问，“你训练的目的是什么？”我想，“我正在为生活而训练。”我有四霉，就是吃饭、睡久了、运动。
Those are the things that I need in order to perform.
这些是我表演所需要的东西。
And the other areas of my life seems pretty obvious, but until recently I actually did not prioritize sleep.
我生活的其他领域似乎很明显，但直到最近我实际上并没有优先考虑睡眠。
My boyfriend is actually super into sleep and we have the Eight Sleep, we have eye masks, we have blackout shades, we have good sleep hygiene, and so I'm getting much better at that.
我的男朋友实际上非常喜欢睡眠，我们有八睡眠，我们有眼罩，我们有遮光罩，我们有良好的睡眠卫生，所以我在这方面做得更好了。
But exercise is something that I've always been on top of.
但锻炼是我一直最重视的事情。
Alone time is also a musty for me because I'm an introvert, I need that time to recharge, otherwise I think I get weird around people.
独处的时间对我来说也很乏味，因为我是一个内向的人，我需要时间来充电，否则我觉得我在别人面前会变得很奇怪。
Naomi Gleit: In terms of how I prioritize it, it's a non-negotiable or table stakes, every morning I have to work out.
Naomi Gleit：就我如何优先考虑而言，这是一个不可协商的赌注，每天早上我都必须锻炼。
I am also lucky enough to work in an environment where I can wear workout clothes to work, which I often do.
我也很幸运能够在一个可以穿着运动服上班的环境中工作，我经常这样做。
I think working out is sure the hour of the day that I'm doing my exercise, but I also view, like I said, life is a workout, performing at work is a workout.
我认为锻炼是我每天锻炼的时间，但我也认为，就像我说的，生活是一种锻炼，工作中的表现也是一种锻炼。
I need to be able to move.
我需要能够移动。
I need to feel comfortable.
我需要感觉舒服。
It's very physical, I think, especially if you're trying really hard to be a conductor, and I'm running around with a metaphorical conductor wand, I need to be able to move.
我认为这是非常身体上的，特别是如果你真的很努力地成为一名指挥，而我拿着一根隐喻的指挥棒到处跑，我需要能够移动。
A while ago, and that's what the Wall Street Journal article was about, I set a goal of doing five pull-ups.
不久前，这就是《华尔街日报》文章的内容，我设定了做五个引体向上的目标。
I'd read somewhere in an article that less than 1% of women can actually do.
我在一篇文章中读到，只有不到 1% 的女性真正能做到。
I think having a goal is really helpful.
我认为有一个目标真的很有帮助。
Naomi Gleit: That's something that I worked on, and anyone can do this truly if you train for it.
Naomi Gleit：这就是我所做的事情，如果你进行训练，任何人都可以真正做到这一点。
I think it's potentially more technique for me than strength per se, and I worked up towards that goal.
我认为对我来说，这可能更多的是技术而不是力量本身，我正在朝着这个目标努力。
I think exercise, in addition to all of the physical benefits, primarily has a mental health benefit I think for me.
我认为锻炼除了对身体有好处外，对我来说主要对心理健康也有好处。
And also there are just a lot of lessons that I think I take from exercise.
而且我认为我从锻炼中学到了很多教训。
For example, I think being able to do five pull-ups taught me I can do hard things in this really narrow, measurable way, which gave me confidence in other aspects of my life.
例如，我认为能够做五个引体向上教会了我可以用这种非常狭窄的、可测量的方式做困难的事情，这给了我对生活其他方面的信心。
Lenny Rachitsky: I had a friend who her goal was...
Lenny Rachitsky：我有一个朋友，她的目标是......
Lenny Rachitsky: I had a friend who her goal was do one push-up.
Lenny Rachitsky：我有一个朋友，她的目标是做一个俯卧撑。
Lenny Rachitsky: She's like, "I want to be able to do one push-up" and that was really motivating to her.
Lenny Rachitsky：她说，“我希望能够做一个俯卧撑”，这确实激励了她。
And then she finally got there and then she could do more.
然后她终于到达了那里，然后她可以做更多的事情。
Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, similar.
Lenny Rachitsky：是的，类似。
I have so many notes here as that you were talking.
我这里有很多你说的笔记。
The other is sleep advice.
另一个是睡眠建议。
So eye mask.
所以眼膜。
I have an awesome eye mask that I'll recommend in the show notes.
我有一款很棒的眼罩，我会在演出笔记中推荐它。
It's funny.
很有趣。
Lenny Rachitsky: What is that?
莱尼·拉奇茨基：那是什么？
Of all the things I've recommended in all the various places I get the most comments about, "Thank you for this very specific eye mask.
在我在各个地方推荐的所有产品中，我收到最多的评论是：“谢谢你们这款非常特殊的眼罩。
It changed my life." It's like WAOAW, it's one Tim Ferriss has often recommended.
它改变了我的生活。”就像 WAOAW 一样，这是 Tim Ferriss 经常推荐的一款。
Lenny Rachitsky: W-A-O...
莱尼·拉奇茨基：W-A-O...
I'll link to it in the show notes, but it's-
我会在节目笔记中链接到它，但它是-
Lenny Rachitsky: WAOAW, let me look it up real quick 'cause people are going to be like, "Oh, I got to get it." WAOAW eye mask.
Lenny Rachitsky：WAOAW，让我快速查找一下，因为人们会说，“哦，我必须得到它。” WAOAW 眼罩。
Naomi Gleit: The one that we have has cushions around the eyes such that it's not flush against your eyes.
Naomi Gleit：我们的这款在眼睛周围有垫子，这样它就不会与您的眼睛齐平。
Lenny Rachitsky: W-A-O-A-W sleep mask on Amazon.
Lenny Rachitsky：亚马逊上的 W-A-O-A-W 睡眠面膜。
It's 13 bucks and amazing.
13 美元，太棒了。
My wife and I both sleep with these eye masks.
我和我的妻子睡觉时都戴着这些眼罩。
It's ridiculous until you're like, "I can't sleep without one now."
这很荒谬，直到你会说，“我现在没有一个就睡不着。”
Naomi Gleit: Totally.
内奥米·格莱特：完全可以。
Well there's a lot of research that even ambient lighting results in lower quality sleep.
嗯，有很多研究表明，即使是环境照明也会导致睡眠质量下降。
So I think that's why the blackout shades and the eye mask just help ensure it's truly dark.
所以我认为这就是为什么遮光窗帘和眼罩只是有助于确保它真正黑暗。
Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, I was just watching a podcast and the advice there is even your smoke alarm with a little light is too much light.
Lenny Rachitsky：是的，我刚刚在看一个播客，里面的建议甚至是带有一点光的烟雾报警器也太亮了。
You need to cover that up to create real darkness and why not just wear an eye mask?
你需要遮盖它才能创造出真正的黑暗，为什么不戴上眼罩呢？
You don't have to worry about any of that.
您不必担心这些。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, and then one thing I didn't mention when you're talking about the conductor, the PM as a conductor, that's exactly the metaphor I've always used my entire career when people ask me about what is product manager?
Lenny Rachitsky：好的，然后当你谈论指挥时我没有提到一件事，即作为指挥的 PM，这正是我整个职业生涯中当人们问我什么是产品经理时一直使用的比喻？
So we're alike.
所以我们很相似。
Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, I have all these slides of here's the PM and it's like a symphony and the conductor standing there.
Lenny Rachitsky：是的，我有所有这些总理的幻灯片，它就像一首交响乐，指挥站在那里。
Naomi Gleit: Lenny, do you know how happy that makes me?
Naomi Gleit：Lenny，你知道这让我有多高兴吗？
Because I feel like sometimes people are like, "That sounds crazy," but the fact that you actually came to that same conclusion makes me...
因为我觉得有时人们会说，“这听起来很疯狂”，但事实上你得出了同样的结论，这让我......
Why did you come to that conclusion?
你为什么得出这个结论？
I'm just curious
我只是好奇
Lenny Rachitsky: Because as you said, the PM's not making the thing.
Lenny Rachitsky：因为正如你所说，总理没有做这件事。
They're just helping each of the people who are the most talented at their very specific skill do the best possible work and their back is to the audience.
他们只是帮助每个在特定技能上最有才华的人尽可能地完成最好的工作，而他们的支持就是观众。
They're trying to stay out of the way even though they come in, everyone claps for them, the outstanding event, and then in theory they could step in a little bit to help out when they can pinch it on design here and there and research here and there, probably not engineering.
他们试图不妨碍他们，即使他们进来了，每个人都为他们鼓掌，这是一场杰出的活动，然后理论上，当他们可以在这里和那里进行设计和在这里和那里进行研究（可能不是工程）时，他们可以介入一点来提供帮助。
So those are the reasons and they're not in charge.
所以这些就是原因，他们不负责。
The chair wind violinist is the actual person that's making the music and the best at this thing.
椅子管小提琴家是真正创作音乐的人，也是这方面最擅长的人。
Naomi Gleit: It's so great to hear somebody else talk about this too.
Naomi Gleit：很高兴听到其他人也谈论这个。
Thank you.
谢谢。
And I think that that is really how I view my role and what I do and I think maybe just hearing you talk about it reminded me why I think I put so much emphasis on just elevating the people on my team and the people around me and candidly, one of the development areas for me, and it could be downstream because I do have this analogy of how to be a PM, is that the growth feedback or the constructive feedback for me is really learning when to lead from the front more.
我认为这就是我如何看待我的角色和我所做的事情，我想也许只是听到你谈论它提醒了我为什么我认为我如此重视提升我的团队中的人和我周围的人，坦率地说，这对我来说是发展领域之一，它可能是下游的，因为我确实对如何成为一名产品经理有这样的类比，那就是成长反馈或建设性反馈对我来说真的是学习何时更多地从前面领导。
Maybe when to be less of a quiet conductor that's really elevating the first chair violinist and be more front facing.
也许什么时候才能不再像一个安静的指挥那样真正提升第一把小提琴手的地位，而是更加面向前方。
Naomi Gleit: I think a lot of my approach and my leadership style is really leading through the people on my team and helping grow them.
Naomi Gleit：我认为我的很多方法和领导风格实际上是通过团队中的人员进行领导并帮助他们成长。
And a lot of times I think that they're dedicated, they're experts, they know particular areas.
很多时候我认为他们很敬业，他们是专家，他们了解特定领域。
Obviously as a head of product, I manage a portfolio of different projects of which each of them has the incredible leader on it.
显然，作为产品主管，我管理着一系列不同的项目，其中每个项目都有令人难以置信的领导者。
And so oftentimes I'm just really trying to lead from behind and help them be as successful as possible.
很多时候，我只是想在幕后领导并帮助他们尽可能取得成功。
But there is a time and a place when maybe that silent conductor needs to take more of a vocal and front facing role.
但在某个时间和地点，这位沉默的指挥可能需要更多地扮演发声和正面的角色。
Lenny Rachitsky: I know exactly what you mean.
Lenny Rachitsky：我完全明白你的意思。
I had the same problem when I was a PM because there's always this fear that PMs in charge and telling everyone to do.
当我担任产品经理时，我也遇到过同样的问题，因为总是担心产品经理负责并告诉每个人去做。
And so I had the opposite of like, "Okay, and that's not me.
所以我的想法正好相反，“好吧，那不是我。
I'm going to just let you do the things you think are best and I'll just make sure the best ideas come to the surface," and I have to learn exactly the same thing.
我会让你做你认为最好的事情，我会确保最好的想法浮出水面，”我必须学习完全相同的事情。
Sometimes people just want you to point them in the right direction and make the decision in the end.
有时人们只是希望你为他们指明正确的方向并最终做出决定。
And the best PMs are people that have the best opinions about what is going to work, how intuition of what users need, have strong product sense and all that stuff.
最好的产品经理是那些对什么可行、对用户需求有怎样的直觉、有强烈的产品意识等等的人。
I've had this post that I'm trying to work on along these lines where there's this reaction to PMs aren't the CEO of the product.
我已经写了一篇文章，我正在尝试按照这些思路进行工作，其中对产品经理而不是产品首席执行官的反应是这样的。
Lenny Rachitsky: They're just like...
莱尼·拉奇茨基：他们就像……
No, don't call yourselves that.
不，不要这样称呼自己。
I think it's the opposite.
我认为恰恰相反。
I think PMs actually should think of themselves as the CEO of the product, not in terms of they are in charge and can fire people and manage people, but they're the closest heuristic for what the CEO and the founder wants.
我认为产品经理实际上应该将自己视为产品的首席执行官，而不是说他们负责，可以解雇人员和管理人员，但他们是最接近首席执行官和创始人想要的启发。
They think of what does the business need, what is going to help the customers, what's going to help us grow?
他们思考业务需要什么，什么可以帮助客户，什么可以帮助我们成长？
And I think the PM is the closest to that role and so I think it's important to think of that role as that even though you're not technically in charge.
我认为总理是最接近这个角色的，所以我认为将这个角色视为重要的，即使你在技术上并不负责。
Naomi Gleit: And maybe you could call it something different, but I totally agree with that sentiment.
Naomi Gleit：也许你可以称之为不同的东西，但我完全同意这种观点。
I think we were trying to push against the criticism that PMs were bossing everybody around, but actually I think you-
我认为我们试图反驳关于产品经理对周围所有人发号施令的批评，但实际上我认为你-
Naomi Gleit: There's baggage there.
Naomi Gleit：那里有行李。
I call it, there's something called the great non-technical.
我称之为，有一种东西叫做伟大的非技术性。
There was a period of time at Facebook where I think the PMs really had to prove their value to the engineers and show that we were not slowing things down with all this extra process.
在 Facebook 有一段时间，我认为 PM 确实必须向工程师证明他们的价值，并表明我们并没有因为所有这些额外的流程而放慢速度。
You can imagine an engineer hearing me talk about how to run a meeting and all the canonical docs and just be like, "What?
你可以想象一位工程师听到我谈论如何召开会议和所有规范文档，然后会说：“什么？
This sounds terrible." So yeah, we had to prove that, but I actually do think the PM is the closest to really channeling what the CEO or the founder wants.
这听起来很可怕。”所以，是的，我们必须证明这一点，但我实际上确实认为 PM 是最接近真正传达首席执行官或创始人想要的东西的。
Another thing that I've worked on and that I'm working on is really developing a much stronger first-party perspective.
我一直在做的另一件事是真正开发更强大的第一方视角。
It's not enough for the PM to run this people in process that we talked about.
对于 PM 来说，在我们讨论的流程中管理这些人是不够的。
Obviously I love that stuff.
显然我喜欢那些东西。
I lean that way, but at the end of the day, a PM cannot outsource their perspective or delegate their thinking through people and process.
我倾向于这样，但归根结底，项目经理不能外包他们的观点或通过人员和流程委托他们的想法。
Naomi Gleit: And so for me that has been a learning curve and I am trying to, as someone who's very consensus driven, I want to hear all the different opinions from all the different people.
Naomi Gleit：对我来说，这是一个学习曲线，作为一个非常注重共识的人，我正在努力，我想听到来自不同人的所有不同意见。
I can still do that.
我仍然可以做到这一点。
I can still through people in process talk to all the different folks working on a project, hear their first party perspectives and then use all of that to synthesize my own because it will be unique given my role on the team and just what I'm trying to optimize for and really make sure that I both develop that first-party opinion and communicate it clearly.
我仍然可以通过流程中的人员与从事某个项目的所有不同人员进行交谈，听取他们的第一方观点，然后利用所有这些来综合我自己的观点，因为考虑到我在团队中的角色以及我正在努力优化的内容，这将是独一无二的，并真正确保我既发展了第一方意见又清楚地传达了它。
And like you said, the best PMs I think can do it all.
正如您所说，我认为最好的产品经理可以做到这一切。
Lenny Rachitsky: Just to follow this thread, one thread further, because this is something I think a lot of product managers work on and are told to work on, is there anything you've found to be helpful in building this skill in yourself that might be helpful to folks that are working on it?
Lenny Rachitsky：沿着这条线索，再进一步一点，因为我认为这是很多产品经理都在做的事情，并且被告知要去做的事情，你发现有什么东西可以帮助你自己培养这项技能，也可能对正在研究它的人有帮助吗？
Naomi Gleit: I'm lucky enough because I have a big team.
Naomi Gleit：我很幸运，因为我有一个大团队。
I have someone who helps me schedule my time and I used to goal that person and goal our work together on just being as efficient as possible.
我有人帮助我安排时间，我过去常常以那个人为目标，并以我们共同的工作尽可能高效为目标。
But now what I am goaling that person and what we're trying to accomplish here is giving me as much time to develop a first-party point of view.
但现在我的目标是那个人，我们在这里试图完成的任务是给我尽可能多的时间来发展第一方的观点。
And so what is the most effective way to do that?
那么最有效的方法是什么？
And for me it is having two to three hour blocks of time where I can actually sit, think, have space, but maybe something that's different about me than other people is its very, very helpful for me to talk to maybe one or two people, not be in a big meeting with 40 people, trusted people.
对我来说，有两到三个小时的时间我可以真正坐下来思考，有空间，但也许我与其他人的不同之处在于，对我来说与一两个人交谈非常非常有帮助，而不是与 40 个人、值得信赖的人一起参加大型会议。
Naomi Gleit: I have an incredible person on my team that I talk to that I think really helps me clarify my thinking.
Naomi Gleit：我的团队中有一位非常出色的人，我认为他确实帮助我理清了自己的想法。
And so to go back to the beginning, just I'm trying to find blocks in my day that I can spend time thinking and also within those blocks, they don't have to be alone time.
回到开头，我试图在一天中找到可以花时间思考的时间段，并且在这些时间段内，他们不必独处。
They can also be scheduling my chief of staff and my head of data to bounce ideas off of as a sounding board because that is the process that I know best for me in terms of really developing a first party perspective.
他们还可以安排我的幕僚长和数据主管作为参谋来交换想法，因为在真正发展第一方视角方面，这是我最了解的过程。
Lenny Rachitsky: Such a good tip.
Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个很好的建议。
It makes sense if you're just spending all your day coordinating in meetings, checking things, reviewing things, you have no time to actually think about what you think is the right move and answer and strategy and next step.
如果你只是花一整天时间协调会议、检查事情、回顾事情，那么你就没有时间真正思考你认为正确的行动、答案、策略和下一步，这是有道理的。
And so that's a really good tip.
所以这是一个非常好的建议。
If you're finding that you don't have time to think about what you think is the right solution and the right strategy and the right product decision, fine, just block time to think about this stuff.
如果您发现您没有时间思考您认为正确的解决方案、正确的策略和正确的产品决策，那么好吧，只需抽出时间来考虑这些事情即可。
I have these deep work slots in my calendar.
我的日历上有这些深度工作时段。
I've written about this a few times where it's three hours and the invite, I don't know if you can do this these days, but it was just, if you book time during the slot, I will slap you.
我已经写过几次关于这三个小时的邀请，我不知道你现在是否可以这样做，但只是，如果你在空档期间预订时间，我会打你一巴掌。
Nobody did.
没有人这样做。
Naomi Gleit: That's amazing.
内奥米·格雷特：太棒了。
And I think for me, some people might need three hours on their own.
我认为对我来说，有些人可能需要三个小时独自一人。
I think for me, and I don't know about you, talking things through with one or two people really helps me as well.
我认为对我来说（我不了解你的情况），与一两个人讨论问题也确实对我有帮助。
So sometimes it was almost quite challenging for me to think of going into a room by myself for three hours and then I was just going to figure it out on my own.
所以有时候，想到自己一个人走进一个房间三个小时，然后我就自己想办法，这对我来说几乎是相当具有挑战性的。
This is like, and I don't know how people help people think strategically the best, but it doesn't have to necessarily be alone.
这就像，我不知道人们如何帮助人们从战略上进行最佳思考，但这不一定是单独的。
Lenny Rachitsky: That's a great tip.
Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个很好的建议。
Just have a sparring partner.
只要有一个陪练就可以了
Lenny Rachitsky: Someone who is just interested in exploring ideas and not just have a clear agenda.
Lenny Rachitsky：一个只对探索想法感兴趣而不仅仅是有明确议程的人。
I love that.
我喜欢那个。
Okay, Naomi, I love this tangent we went on as we were wrapping up.
好吧，内奥米，我喜欢我们在结束时继续进行的这种切线。
Lenny Rachitsky: That was amazing.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
There was a lot of good stuff that we covered there, but I know you have to run.
我们在那里报道了很多好东西，但我知道你必须逃跑。
So before we get to our very exciting lightning round, is there anything else that we haven't covered that you wanted to cover or share?
那么，在我们开始非常激动人心的闪电回合之前，还有什么我们没有提到但您想介绍或分享的吗？
Naomi Gleit: Honestly, I think I just did it.
Naomi Gleit：老实说，我想我刚刚做到了。
I didn't even realize I wanted to talk about that, but it just all came out.
我什至没有意识到我想谈论这个，但一切都已经发生了。
Lenny Rachitsky: I love it.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢它。
I love that.
我喜欢那个。
Those are the best nuggets.
这些是最好的金块。
With that, we've reached our very exciting lightning round.
至此，我们进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。
Are you ready?
你准备好了吗？
Lenny Rachitsky: First question, what are two or three books that you've recommended most to other people?
Lenny Rachitsky：第一个问题，您向其他人推荐最多的两三本书是什么？
Naomi Gleit: I really love narrative nonfiction, so I like the Eric Larson books.
Naomi Gleit：我真的很喜欢叙事非小说，所以我喜欢埃里克·拉森的书。
They're a very compelling and page turning way to learn about history.
它们是了解历史的一种非常引人注目且令人翻页的方式。
I recently read Devil in the White City and there was also one about Churchill's first year by Eric Larson.
我最近读了《白城恶魔》，还有埃里克·拉尔森写的一本关于丘吉尔第一年的书。
Another book that just the canonical book that I often recommend is Sapiens.
我经常推荐的另一本书是《Sapiens》。
I think he's a great example of what we talk about when we talk about simplifiers.
我认为他是我们谈论简化器时所谈论的一个很好的例子。
He took a very complex subject, which is all of human history and tried to pull out the nuggets.
他选择了一个非常复杂的主题，即整个人类历史，并试图找出其中的金块。
I think his thesis that what differentiates humans from other forms of life is really our ability to tell and believe in myths or stories, and he cites money and religion as examples, but also there's a graphic novel version of Sapiens and so he almost has the PhD level and then he literally has the high school level, which is a graphic novel version.
我认为他的论点是，人类与其他生命形式的区别实际上在于我们讲述和相信神话或故事的能力，他引用了金钱和宗教作为例子，而且还有《智人》的图画小说版本，所以他几乎拥有博士学位，然后他实际上拥有高中水平，这是图画小说版本。
Naomi Gleit: He also has Unstoppable Us, which I think is a kid's version, and so clearly here is someone who is a master.
Naomi Gleit：他还有《我们势不可挡》，我认为这是一个儿童版本，所以显然这里是一个大师。
There's a James Clear thing that a friend, Shirley, told me about where it's like if you're a beginner, you have ignorant simplicity and intermediate has functional complexity, and then a master of a topic has profound simplicity.
詹姆斯·克利尔 (James Clear) 的一位朋友雪莉 (Shirley) 告诉我，如果你是初学者，你会感到无知的简单性，中级的人会具有功能复杂性，而某个主题的大师则会具有深刻的简单性。
And that's what I feel like Noah Yuval Harari really has because he can go all the way up and down this cool pyramid in terms of explaining this really complex topic.
这就是我觉得诺亚·尤瓦尔·赫拉里（Noah Yuval Harari）真正拥有的东西，因为他可以在解释这个非常复杂的话题时沿着这个很酷的金字塔一路走来。
Lenny Rachitsky: What I heard about him is that he goes on a one-month meditation retreat every year where it's just him silent meditation retreat, and people ask him, "How do you have time to do that when you have so much work to do?" He's like, "The only way I'm able to achieve these books where I synthesize all of human history into a story is because I do that.
莱尼·拉奇茨基（Lenny Rachitsky）：我听说他每年都会进行为期一个月的冥想静修，只有他一个人进行静默冥想静修，人们问他：“当你有这么多工作要做时，你怎么有时间这样做？”他说，“我能够完成这些将所有人类历史综合成一个故事的书的唯一方法就是因为我这样做了。
Because I can clear my mind and just be."
因为我可以理清思绪，保持平静。”
Naomi Gleit: And Lenny, to our previous conversation, that is how he himself is best.
Naomi Gleit：莱尼，根据我们之前的谈话，他本人就是最好的。
That's what he needs to do.
这就是他需要做的。
I might need two to three hours a day and a sparring partner, Noah Yuval Harari needs a month in silent meditation.
我可能每天需要两到三个小时，而陪练伙伴诺亚·尤瓦尔·赫拉里（Noah Yuval Harari）需要一个月的静默冥想。
Lenny Rachitsky: Great point.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：说得好。
Everyone has their own way of unlocking their brain.
每个人都有自己的解锁大脑的方式。
On Devil in the White City, a fun fact.
关于白城恶魔，一个有趣的事实。
When I read that, I was like, "I need to go to Chicago and see the stuff that they wrote about in this book about the World's Fair." And so I went to Chicago and-
当我读到这篇文章时，我想，“我需要去芝加哥看看他们在这本关于世界博览会的书中所写的内容。”所以我去了芝加哥并且-
Naomi Gleit: Wow.
娜奥米·格莱特：哇。
Have you read the Splendid in the Vile?
你读过《邪恶中的辉煌》吗？
Lenny Rachitsky: About the Telegram, right?
Lenny Rachitsky：关于 Telegram，对吧？
Yeah.
是的。
Right?
正确的？
Naomi Gleit: Oh, no, it was was Churchill's first year, but he has like six books.
内奥米·格雷特：哦，不，那是丘吉尔的第一年，但他有六本书。
I haven't read all of them.
我还没有读完所有的内容。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。
I think it was either that one or it was something about a telegram.
我认为要么是那个，要么是一封电报。
I did read...
我确实读过...
It was less good though, is was what I find.
虽然不太好，但这就是我发现的。
I found the Devil in White City was-
我发现白城的恶魔是——
Lenny Rachitsky: Was the best.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：是最好的。
Amazing.
惊人的。
Okay, we'll keep going.
好的，我们会继续。
Second question, do you have a favorite movie or TV show you've recently watched that you really enjoyed?
第二个问题，您最近看过最喜欢的电影或电视节目吗？
Naomi Gleit: We just watched Shogun.
Naomi Gleit：我们刚刚看了《幕府将军》。
I thought it was really good.
我觉得这真的很好。
Have you seen it?
你见过吗？
Lenny Rachitsky: I have, yes.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的，我有。
I loved it.
我喜欢它。
Very gruesome but amazing.
非常可怕但令人惊奇。
Naomi Gleit: Yeah.
娜奥米·格莱特：是的。
I was.
我是。
I had to cover my eyes for some of it.
我不得不遮住眼睛才能看到其中一些。
And then we also, the movie that we just watched was Dune Two.
然后我们也，我们刚刚观看的电影是《沙丘二号》。
Chris Cox, who's our chief product officer, actually recommended that as one of the best films that he's seen recently, and I really trust his opinion on that.
我们的首席产品官克里斯·考克斯实际上推荐这是他最近看过的最好的电影之一，我真的相信他对此的看法。
So we caught up by watching Dune One and then watched Dune Two, and it was really good.
所以我们看了《沙丘一》，然后看了《沙丘二》，真的很棒。
Lenny Rachitsky: I watched that in IMAX Theater in San Francisco, this insanely large screen and highly would recommend that.
Lenny Rachitsky：我在旧金山的 IMAX 剧院观看了这部影片，屏幕非常大，强烈推荐观看。
I don't think it's still out there.
我不认为它还在那里。
Yeah.
是的。
ridiculous.
荒谬的。
Amazing.
惊人的。
I think there's another one coming someday.
我想有一天还会有另一个人到来。
Lenny Rachitsky: Dune Three.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：《沙丘三号》。
Just keep them coming.
只要让他们来就行。
Next question.
下一个问题。
Do you have a favorite product you recently discovered that you really love?
您最近发现了您真正喜欢的最喜欢的产品吗？
Naomi Gleit: Well, I'm going to check out that eye mask thing that you recommended, the WAOAW thing.
Naomi Gleit：嗯，我要去看看你推荐的眼罩，WAOAW。
Naomi Gleit: I know it's super expensive, but have you tried the Eight Sleep?
Naomi Gleit：我知道它非常贵，但是你尝试过八睡眠吗？
Lenny Rachitsky: I have.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：我有。
My wife doesn't love it.
我的妻子不喜欢它。
She doesn't like the noise.
她不喜欢噪音。
It's like a very slight noise when it starts up, but it wakes her up, so we don't have it anymore.
就像启动时有一个非常轻微的噪音，但它吵醒了她，所以我们不再有它了。
Naomi Gleit: And I noticed that too.
Naomi Gleit：我也注意到了这一点。
I think maybe they just released the latest edition.
我想也许他们刚刚发布了最新版本。
One of the features that is the killer feature for me is that it does a vibrating alarm so that when I wake up at 6:00 A.M., I do not wake up everyone in the house at 6:00 A.M., and so it's a thermal alarm.
对我来说杀手级功能之一是它会发出振动警报，这样当我早上 6:00 醒来时，我就不会在早上 6:00 吵醒屋子里的每个人，所以它是一个热警报器。
It makes the bed on my side hotter and it also slightly vibrates underneath my ear to wake me up.
它使我这边的床更热，并且它还在我耳下轻微振动以唤醒我。
Lenny Rachitsky: It's under your ear.
Lenny Rachitsky：它在你的耳朵下面。
I remember vibrating my whole part of the bed.
我记得我整个床都在震动。
I wonder if that's a new feature.
我想知道这是否是一个新功能。
Naomi Gleit: Maybe this is like...
Naomi Gleit：也许这就像......
I'm on version three, maybe there's a version four.
我现在用的是第三版，也许还有第四版。
I don't know.
我不知道。
Maybe that was version one.
也许那是第一版。
Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, that's so funny.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的，这太有趣了。
A nice thing about my life right now is that because I have no meetings or boss, I don't need an alarm.
我现在生活的一件好事是，因为我没有会议，也没有老板，所以我不需要闹钟。
Lenny Rachitsky: However, it's amazing.
Lenny Rachitsky：然而，这太棒了。
However, we have a young kid and he wakes up at 6:00 to 6:30, so that's my alarm usually.
不过，我们有一个小孩，他在 6:00 到 6:30 起床，所以这通常是我的闹钟。
Naomi Gleit: Oh, and then the other thing I wanted to mention, I don't know if you have this problem, but I'm trying to get a hundred grams of protein every day.
Naomi Gleit：哦，然后我想提的另一件事是，我不知道你是否有这个问题，但我正在努力每天摄入一百克蛋白质。
I think a lot of my friends and I are focused on protein consumption right now, and so my trainer who helped me actually do the pull-ups and the push-ups started a protein products company called Promix that I really love, and he has this Rice Krispie treat thing that I usually eat every morning and gives me 15 grams of protein.
我想我和我的很多朋友现在都专注于蛋白质的消耗，所以我的教练帮助我实际做引体向上和俯卧撑，开了一家名为 Promix 的蛋白质产品公司，我非常喜欢，他有我每天早上通常吃的脆米花零食，可以给我提供 15 克蛋白质。
Lenny Rachitsky: Yes, I was reading, Kevin Rose had his favorite, his health stack, and I don't know if that's the brand, but it's exactly a Rice Krispie thing with 15 grams of protein.
Lenny Rachitsky：是的，我在读，凯文·罗斯有他最喜欢的健康堆栈，我不知道这是否是这个品牌，但它确实是一种含有 15 克蛋白质的脆米花。
So I'm pretty sure that's it.
所以我很确定就是这样。
Naomi Gleit: I'm pretty sure that's it, because the Rice Krispie part of it is very unique, so let me know what you think.
Naomi Gleit：我很确定就是这样，因为其中的脆米花部分非常独特，所以请告诉我您的想法。
I really like the chocolate chip flavor.
我真的很喜欢巧克力片的味道。
Lenny Rachitsky: I hate them and I love them, so that's a really good tip.
Lenny Rachitsky：我既恨他们又爱他们，所以这是一个非常好的建议。
I just saw a funny TikTok where it's like I never thought when I'd grow up in be an adult, I'd be thinking so often about protein and how much protein I should be eating.
我刚刚看到一个有趣的 TikTok，好像我从来没有想过当我长大成人时，我会如此频繁地思考蛋白质以及我应该吃多少蛋白质。
Naomi Gleit: Maybe this is 40, I don't know.
Naomi Gleit：也许这是 40，我不知道。
I'm not sure for me, but yes, I've been thinking a lot about protein.
我自己也不确定，但是是的，我一直在思考蛋白质的问题。
The other thing I really like is canned seafood, which has a lot of protein.
我真正喜欢的另一件事是海鲜罐头，其中含有大量蛋白质。
So something called Fish Wife has, it's just Hipster, like Chicken of the Sea.
所以有一种叫鱼妻的东西，它只是时髦，就像海里的鸡一样。
Lenny Rachitsky: Oh yeah, they're very cute.
Lenny Rachitsky：哦，是的，它们非常可爱。
Yes.
是的。
My wife gets those.
我的妻子得到了那些。
Another protein tip, they were a former sponsor, but no longer, but it's an amazing protein tip.
另一个蛋白质提示，他们是前赞助商，但不再是，但这是一个令人惊叹的蛋白质提示。
Maui Nui venison beef sticks.
毛伊努伊鹿肉牛肉棒。
It's 10 grams of protein and it's a delicious venison beef stick.
它含有10克蛋白质，是美味的鹿肉牛肉棒。
Naomi Gleit: Look at what we've become Lenny.
Naomi Gleit：看看我们变成了 Lenny。
Lenny Rachitsky: Just protein obsessed.
Lenny Rachitsky：只是对蛋白质的痴迷。
It's just going to be so protein rich.
它的蛋白质含量将会非常丰富。
Amazing.
惊人的。
Okay, what else we got here?
好吧，我们这里还有什么？
Okay, two more questions.
好吧，还有两个问题。
Do you have a favorite life motto that you often come back to and find helpful in working life?
您是否有一条最喜欢的人生格言，并且经常回顾并发现它对工作生活有帮助？
Naomi Gleit: Last month we were watching, or I guess two weeks ago, we were watching the US Open and we discovered that as people come through the hallway to come onto the court to play, the players all passed the Billie Jean King sign that says Pressure is Privilege.
Naomi Gleit：上个月我们在观看，或者我猜是两周前，我们在观看美国公开赛，我们发现当人们穿过走廊来到球场上比赛时，球员们都经过了比利·简·金（Billie Jean King）的牌子，上面写着“压力就是特权”。
And I really loved that because I think just with the Teen Accounts launch and just a lot of the more public facing stuff that I have done recently, I do, like we talked about, get nervous, and I think Pressure is Privilege just reminds me that a lot of this stuff is a really incredible opportunity that I have and to be grateful for it.
我真的很喜欢这一点，因为我认为随着青少年账户的推出以及我最近所做的许多面向公众的事情，我确实，就像我们谈到的那样，感到紧张，我认为压力就是特权只是提醒我，很多这些东西是我拥有的一个非常难以置信的机会，并对此表示感激。
I can still be nervous, but also recognize and be grateful for it.
我仍然会紧张，但也承认并感激它。
Lenny Rachitsky: I love that.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢这个。
Just to remind yourself that you're lucky to be feeling this pressure because that means something is important.
只是提醒自己，你很幸运能够感受到这种压力，因为这意味着有些事情很重要。
Slightly different version of that is Zuck at the event in the Chase Center that you were also at had the shirt that said in Latin-
稍微不同的版本是扎克在大通中心的活动中，你也参加了这件衬衫，上面用拉丁语写着——
Lenny Rachitsky: Learning through suffering.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：从苦难中学习。
Perfect.
完美的。
Naomi Gleit: Learning through suffering.
内奥米·格莱特：从苦难中学习。
I like that one too.
我也喜欢那个。
I mean, I think he spoke a little bit about this being an entrepreneur is really, really hard.
我的意思是，我认为他谈到了作为一名企业家真的非常非常困难。
Lenny Rachitsky: They had the Jensen line about people asked him if he'd start Nvidia again, and his answer was like, "If I knew how insanely hard and stressful this was, I would not." Very, very honest.
Lenny Rachitsky：他们有 Jensen 的台词，人们问他是否会再次创办 Nvidia，他的回答是，“如果我知道这有多困难和压力，我就不会了。”非常非常诚实。
Okay.
好的。
Last question.
最后一个问题。
So Charles, your former colleague, told me that you're an incredible surfer-
所以你的前同事查尔斯告诉我你是一位令人难以置信的冲浪者-
Lenny Rachitsky: And that you design your life almost around where and when you can go surf.
Lenny Rachitsky：你的生活几乎是围绕可以冲浪的时间和地点来设计的。
Lenny Rachitsky: Any story or lesson or I don't know, takeaway from surfing and the impact that's had on you?
Lenny Rachitsky：有什么故事或教训吗？或者我不知道，冲浪的收获以及它对你的影响？
Lessons about surfing?
有关冲浪的课程？
Naomi Gleit: So I think surfing and life have a lot of parallels.
Naomi Gleit：所以我认为冲浪和生活有很多相似之处。
It is an incredibly mental sport for me.
对我来说，这是一项令人难以置信的智力运动。
The biggest thing that I can do to improve my surfing is to improve my confidence.
为了提高我的冲浪水平，我能做的最重要的事情就是提高我的信心。
And so when I'm going for a wave, a lot of times I will hesitate or pull back or.
因此，当我想要一波浪潮时，很多时候我会犹豫或退缩。
Instead, the best thing that you can actually do in that situation is stand up into your fear, is to ride the wave.
相反，在这种情况下，你实际上能做的最好的事情就是直面恐惧，顺势而为。
That is the safest thing you can do.
这是你能做的最安全的事情。
That is the thing that you're actually supposed to do, but on every dimension, that's the right thing.
这就是你实际上应该做的事情，但在每个维度上，这都是正确的事情。
And so it's almost, I guess the motto there is stand up into the fear when you're going, you're about to catch a wave and actually the things that you can do when you're afraid, for example, like I said, pull back or throw your board are actually quite counterproductive and actually unsafe and could lead to more injury.
所以，我想，那里的座右铭是，当你要去的时候，要勇敢地面对恐惧，你即将赶上浪潮，实际上，当你害怕时你可以做的事情，例如，就像我说的，向后拉或扔你的板实际上是相当适得其反的，实际上是不安全的，可能会导致更多的伤害。
And so it's just another reminder that you really need to commit.
所以这只是再次提醒你确实需要做出承诺。
Stand up into your fear.
直面你的恐惧。
Lenny Rachitsky: I love it.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢它。
Stand up into your fear and pressure is a privilege and learning through suffering.
直面恐惧和压力是一种荣幸，并且可以通过痛苦来学习。
Naomi, this was so much fun.
内奥米，这太有趣了。
I'm so happy that you agreed to do this.
我很高兴你同意这样做。
Two final questions.
最后两个问题。
Where can folks find you a line?
人们在哪里可以找到你的线路？
Where they find Naomi-isms, and anything else you want to point folks to and how can listeners be useful to you?
他们在哪里找到内奥米主义，以及您想向人们指出的其他任何内容，以及听众如何对您有用？
Naomi Gleit: So believe it or not, I have Naomi.com.
Naomi Gleit：所以不管你信不信，我有 Naomi.com。
I know Boz has Boz.com.
我知道 Boz 有 Boz.com。
I bought that URL, I think maybe 20 years ago, 15 to 20 years ago from a farmer actually whose wife's name was Naomi rather, and his wife was not using it.
我想可能是 20 年前，15 到 20 年前，从一个农民那里买了这个 URL，实际上他的妻子的名字叫 Naomi，而他的妻子并没有使用它。
And so I got it for quite a steal.
所以我以相当便宜的价格得到了它。
And I'll just say that I've had other famous Naomis, much more famous and much more well known than I, who would like to have Naomi.com make offers for this URL.
我只想说，我还有其他著名的 Naomis，他们比我更有名、更出名，他们希望 Naomi.com 为这个 URL 提供报价。
But I really like having just a home on the internet where I can put my Naomi-isms.
但我真的很喜欢在互联网上拥有一个家，在那里我可以放置我的内奥米主义。
They're also available on Instagram, Naomi Gleit.
Naomi Gleit 也可以在 Instagram 上找到它们。
Naomi Gleit: How can listeners be useful to you?
Naomi Gleit：听众如何对你有用？
I think Lenny, I mentioned this before we got on the call, I don't tend to do that much public speaking or talking about Naomi-isms.
我想莱尼，我在打电话之前就提到过这一点，我不倾向于做那么多公开演讲或谈论内奥米主义。
I did some of it two years ago when we first launched but I, as a result of being on the podcast and stuff, would love to do more of this.
两年前，当我们第一次推出时，我做了一些这样的事情，但由于参加了播客之类的活动，我很乐意做更多这样的事情。
And so I think any feedback on what listeners would like to see or hear from me, questions that would give me a reason where I felt like it would be useful for me to do more on Naomi-isms would be super helpful.
因此，我认为任何关于听众希望从我这里看到或听到什么的反馈，以及那些能给我一个理由的问题，让我觉得对我来说对内奥米主义做更多的事情是有用的，都会非常有帮助。
Lenny Rachitsky: Sweet.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太好了。
So if you have any of those, leave them in the YouTube comments is usually the easiest place for folks to leave that.
因此，如果您有其中任何一个，请将它们留在 YouTube 评论中，这通常是人们最容易留下的地方。
Naomi, thank you so much for being here.
内奥米，非常感谢你来到这里。
This was so much fun.
这太有趣了。
Bye everyone.: Thank you so much for listening.
大家再见：非常感谢您的聆听。
If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or your favorite podcast app.
如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。
Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.
另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。
You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.
您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。
See you in the next episode.
下一集见。