Linear’s secret to building beloved B2B products | Nan Yu (Head of Product)

Lenny Rachitsky: I think you see in the team at Linear that a lot of people don't see, which is that there's not actually a trade-off between speed and quality.

Lenny Rachitsky：我认为你在 Linear 团队中看到了很多人没有看到的，那就是速度和质量之间实际上并没有权衡。

Nan Yu: People talk about this as if there were a trade-off because when they think about speed, the thing they over-index on is rushing or being sloppy.

南宇：人们谈论这个问题就好像需要权衡，因为当他们考虑速度时，他们过度关注的就是匆忙或马虎。

What they should be indexing on is being really competent.

他们的索引应该是真正有能力。

If you look at people who are at the pinnacle of their craft, you can basically tell how good the output is going to be of their work product by how fast they're going.

如果你观察那些处于工艺巅峰的人，你基本上可以通过他们的工作速度来判断他们的工作产品的产出有多好。

Lenny Rachitsky: What does speed look like when you say it can be done quickly and high quality?

Lenny Rachitsky：当你说可以快速且高质量地完成时，速度是什么样的？

Nan Yu: What it really looks like is you have some rough time budget for how long you think something's going to take.

南宇：实际上，你对某件事需要花多长时间有一些粗略的时间预算。

By the time 10% of it has passed, after week one, you have something that works that tests some kind of key hypothesis internally.

第一周后，当 10% 过去时，你就有了可以在内部测试某种关键假设的东西。

Lenny Rachitsky: I imagine a criticism you all get.

Lenny Rachitsky：我想你们都会受到批评。

Over time, you'll probably become a bloated piece of software as well.

随着时间的推移，你也可能会变成一个臃肿的软件。

Nan Yu: When we examine this problem, we look at, "Well, what feature requests can we debate and what kind of feature requests do we absolutely have to say no to?" The stuff that we absolutely have to say no to is the exact kind of thing that leads to this bloatedness that makes ICs hate their lives.

南宇：当我们研究这个问题时，我们会考虑，“嗯，我们可以讨论哪些功能请求，以及我们绝对必须拒绝哪些功能请求？”我们绝对要拒绝的东西正是导致这种臃肿的东西，让 IC 讨厌他们的生活。

Lenny Rachitsky: Something that your head of sales shared with me is how impressed he is with the way you ask questions on customer calls and just keep digging and digging until you get to something.

Lenny Rachitsky：你们的销售主管与我分享的一点是，你们在客户电话中提问的方式给他留下了深刻的印象，你们不断地挖掘、挖掘直到找到答案。

Nan Yu: My goal is to feel bad in the same way that customers feel bad.

南宇：我的目标是像顾客感觉不好一样感觉不好。

Lenny Rachitsky: Today, my guest is Nan Yu.

Lenny Rachitsky：今天，我的嘉宾是南宇。

Nan is Head of Product at Linear, which is one of the most beloved, most beautifully designed, and also the fastest growing B2B SaaS product out there today.

Nan 是 Linear 的产品主管，该产品是当今最受欢迎、设计最精美、也是增长最快的 B2B SaaS 产品之一。

You rarely see the kind of love that people have for Linear for any enterprise B2B SaaS product.

您很少看到人们对 Linear 对任何企业 B2B SaaS 产品的喜爱。

So, there is a lot that we can learn from how Linear operates and how they build product.

因此，我们可以从 Linear 的运作方式以及他们如何构建产品中学到很多东西。

In my conversation with Nan, he shares a system that he uses for being creative and coming up with non-obvious solutions to customer problems, why it's a red flag to him when PMs tell him there's a trade-off between speed and quality, how he talks to customers in order to figure out the emotion that they want to avoid and then figure out the solution to avoiding that emotion, plus some killer advice on how to land a job, including how he landed his job at Linear and his previous role at Mode, and so much more.

在我与 Nan 的谈话中，他分享了他用来发挥创造力并为客户问题提出非显而易见的解决方案的系统，为什么当 PM 告诉他速度和质量之间存在权衡时，这对他来说是一个危险信号，他如何与客户交谈以找出他们想要避免的情绪，然后找出避免这种情绪的解决方案，以及一些关于如何找到工作的杀手级建议，包括他如何在 Linear 找到工作以及他之前在 Mode 的职位等等。

Lenny Rachitsky: If you have a desire to build a company or a product that's as beloved as Linear, this episode will give you a ton of tactics and ways to change how you and your team operate.

Lenny Rachitsky：如果您渴望建立一家像 Linear 一样受人喜爱的公司或产品，本集将为您提供大量策略和方法来改变您和您的团队的运作方式。

If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube.

如果您喜欢这个播客，请不要忘记订阅并在您最喜欢的播客应用程序或 YouTube 中关注它。

It's the best way to avoid missing feature episodes, and it helps the podcast tremendously.

这是避免错过专题节目的最佳方式，并且对播客有很大帮助。

With that, I bring you Nan Yu.

那么，我给你带来南宇。

Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by Sinch, the Customer Communications Cloud.

Lenny Rachitsky：本集由客户通信云 Sinch 为您带来。

Here's the thing about digital customer communications.

这是关于数字客户沟通的事情。

Whether you're sending marketing campaigns, verification codes or account alerts, you need them to reach users reliably.

无论您是发送营销活动、验证码还是帐户提醒，您都需要它们可靠地联系用户。

That's where Sinch comes in.

这就是辛奇的用武之地。

Over 150,000 businesses, including 8 of the top 10 largest tech companies globally use Sinch's API to build messaging, email, and calling into their products, and there's something big happening in messaging that product teams to know about, Rich Communication Services, or RCS.

超过 150,000 家企业（包括全球 10 家最大科技公司中的 8 家）使用 Sinch 的 API 来构建消息传递、电子邮件和呼叫其产品，而产品团队了解的消息传递领域正在发生重大变化，即丰富通信服务（RCS）。

Think of RCS as SMS 2.0.

将 RCS 视为 SMS 2.0。

Instead of getting texts from a random number, your users will see your verified company name and logo without needing to download anything new.

您的用户将看到您经过验证的公司名称和徽标，而不是从随机数字中获取文本，而无需下载任何新内容。

It's a more secure and branded experience.

这是一种更安全、更品牌化的体验。

Plus you get features like interactive carousels and suggested replies, and here's why this matters.

另外，您还可以获得交互式轮播和建议回复等功能，这就是为什么这很重要。

US carriers are starting to adopt RCS.

美国运营商开始采用 RCS。

Sinch is already helping major brands send RCS messages around the world, and they're helping Lenny's Podcast listeners get registered first before the rush hits the US market.

Sinch 已经在帮助各大品牌在世界各地发送 RCS 消息，并且他们正在帮助 Lenny's Podcast 听众在热潮席卷美国市场之前首先注册。

Lenny Rachitsky: Learn more and get started at sinch.com/lenny.

Lenny Rachitsky：请访问sinch.com/lenny 了解更多信息并开始使用。

That's S-I-N-C-H.com/lenny.

那是 S-I-N-C-H.com/lenny。

This episode is brought to you by Paragon, the integration infrastructure for B2B SaaS companies.

本集由 Paragon（B2B SaaS 公司的集成基础架构）为您带来。

Is AI on your 2025 product roadmap?

AI 是否在您的 2025 年产品路线图中？

Whether you need to enable RAG with your users' external data like Google Drive files, Gong transcripts or Jira tickets, or build AI agents that can automate work across your users' other tools.

无论您是需要使用用户的外部数据（例如 Google Drive 文件、Gong 成绩单或 Jira 票据）启用 RAG，还是构建可以跨用户的其他工具自动化工作的 AI 代理。

Integrations are the foundation, but building all these integrations in-house will cost you years of engineering, time you don't have given the fast pace of AI.

集成是基础，但在内部构建所有这些集成将花费您数年的工程时间，而这些时间是您无法适应人工智能的快速发展的。

That's where Paragon's all-in-one integration platform comes in.

这就是 Paragon 一体化集成平台的用武之地。

Build scalable workflows to ingest all of your users' external data into your RAG pipelines and leverage ActionKit, their latest product, to instantly give your AI agents access to over 100 integrations and thousands of third party actions with a single API call.

构建可扩展的工作流程，将所有用户的外部数据提取到 RAG 管道中，并利用其最新产品 ActionKit，通过单个 API 调用立即让您的 AI 代理访问 100 多个集成和数千个第三方操作。

Leading AI companies like AI21, You.com, 11x, and coffee.ai are already shipping new integrations seven times faster with Paragon, keeping their engineers focused on core product development.

AI21、You.com、11x 和 Coffee.ai 等领先的人工智能公司已经通过 Paragon 将新集成的速度提高了七倍，让他们的工程师能够专注于核心产品开发。

Ready to accelerate your AI roadmap this year?

准备好今年加速您的人工智能路线图了吗？

Visit useparagon.com/lenny to get a free MVP of your next product integration.

请访问 useparagon.com/lenny，获取下一个产品集成的免费 MVP。

Lenny Rachitsky: Nan, thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast.

Lenny Rachitsky：Nan，非常感谢您来到这里，欢迎来到播客。

Nan Yu: Thanks for having me.

南宇：谢谢你邀请我。

I'm a long-time listener and reader, so it's really a treat to be here.

我是一名长期的听众和读者，所以来到这里真是一种享受。

Lenny Rachitsky: I want to share something with you to kick off that I haven't shared with you yet, that I haven't shared with anyone.

Lenny Rachitsky：我想先与你们分享一些我尚未与你们分享的事情，我还没有与任何人分享的事情。

These results might have come out by the time this podcast comes out, but I'm running a survey right now that I'm calling, "What's in your stack?" Where all my subscribers are asked, "What tools do you use most day to day?

这些结果可能在这个播客发布时就已经出来了，但我现在正在进行一项调查，我打电话给“你的堆栈里有什么？”我的所有订阅者都会被问到：“您每天最常使用哪些工具？

What tools do you love most?

您最喜欢什么工具？

What tools do you hate?" And one of the questions asked was, what tool do you wish you could switch to if your IT department allowed you to?

你讨厌什么工具？”提出的问题之一是，如果您的 IT 部门允许，您希望可以改用哪种工具？

The number one answer by far is people want to switch from Jira to Linear.

到目前为止，第一个答案是人们想从 Jira 切换到 Linear。

Nan Yu: Wow.

南宇：哇。

I mean, hopefully, that means we're doing a good job.

我的意思是，希望这意味着我们做得很好。

Lenny Rachitsky: I think that's exactly what that means.

Lenny Rachitsky：我认为这就是这个意思。

I'll read a couple quotes to give you a sense of what people are saying about Linear.

我将阅读几句话，让您了解人们对 Linear 的看法。

I doubt these are surprising to you, but this gives people a sense of why you're here and why I'm excited to extract as much wisdom as I can from you.

我怀疑这些对你来说是否令人惊讶，但这让人们了解你为什么在这里，以及为什么我很高兴能从你身上汲取尽可能多的智慧。

So, a couple quotes here.

所以，这里引用几句话。

"Linear is a joy to use as I interact with my engineering teams, and I find inspiration in its design." "Linear is simple to use, yet powerful." "Linear's design is obviously an industry benchmark, but moreover, the performance and speed is a massive productivity boost."

“当我与我的工程团队互动时，使用 Linear 是一种乐趣，我从它的设计中找到了灵感。” “Linear 使用简单，但功能强大。” “凌力尔特的设计显然是行业基准，而且，性能和速度极大地提高了生产力。”

Nan Yu: I mean, it's really good to hear that because in a lot of ways, that's what we're trying to do.

南宇：我的意思是，很高兴听到这个消息，因为从很多方面来说，这就是我们正在努力做的事情。

If you think about the entire impetus behind why Linear was started, it's because Karri was sitting at Coinbase and Airbnb and these places and just watching everyone around him struggle using the tools that they had available and always incumbent tools and just seeing that it made people hate their day-to-day a little bit, and we all got into technology and design and engineering, all this kind of stuff because it was fun.

如果你思考 Linear 成立背后的全部推动力，那是因为 Karri 坐在 Coinbase 和 Airbnb 等地方，看着他周围的每个人都在努力使用他们现有的工具，而且总是现有的工具，只是看到这让人们有点讨厌他们的日常生活，我们都进入了技术、设计和工程，所有这些东西因为它很有趣。

All of us started off building stupid MySpace pages and all of these side projects when we were young, and it started off as this fun thing that we do, and we're like, "Wow, we get to do this for a career," and then to have all of this kind of stuff put these big speed bumps into our day-to-day workflow, it just was really sad.

我们所有人在年轻的时候就开始构建愚蠢的 MySpace 页面和所有这些副项目，一开始我们做的都是一件有趣的事情，我们就像，“哇，我们为了一份职业而做这个，”然后让所有这些东西给我们的日常工作流程带来这些巨大的障碍，这真的很悲伤。

So, that's why we started Linear.

这就是我们开始 Linear 的原因。

This really bust through all of that.

这真的打破了这一切。

Lenny Rachitsky: What I love about Linear, I feel like it's an inspirational business because many people want to, "I'm going to build just a much better version of something," and often that doesn't actually work out.

Lenny Rachitsky：我之所以喜欢 Linear，是因为我觉得这是一项鼓舞人心的事业，因为很多人都想，“我要构建一个更好的版本”，但实际上这往往行不通。

Often nobody cares enough.

通常没有人足够关心。

There's all these barriers and reasons.

有所有这些障碍和原因。

People don't switch to something that's better, and Linear is an amazing example of building an excellent product and actually succeeding, and there's a lot more to it maybe than just building an awesome product.

人们不会转向更好的东西，而 Linear 是构建优秀产品并真正取得成功的一个惊人例子，它可能不仅仅是构建一个很棒的产品。

So, that's what I'm excited to dig into and understand how you all operate, and I guess just based on these results, to me, this is the ultimate sign of product market fit.

因此，这就是我很高兴深入研究和了解你们如何运作的原因，我想基于这些结果，对我来说，这是产品市场契合度的最终标志。

People being sad they can't use a product in B2B enterprise software especially, so let's get into it.

人们因为无法在 B2B 企业软件中使用产品而感到悲伤，所以让我们开始吧。

Lenny Rachitsky: First question I want to get into is something that I think you see and the team at Linear sees that a lot of people don't see, which is that there's not actually a trade-off between speed and quality.

Lenny Rachitsky：我想讨论的第一个问题是我认为您已经看到的东西，而 Linear 团队看到了很多人没有看到的东西，那就是速度和质量之间实际上并不存在权衡。

I think a lot of people think this is just an innate fact and something I've heard you talk about is that's not actually true.

我认为很多人认为这只是一个与生俱来的事实，而我听到你谈论的事情实际上并非如此。

I actually saw Patrick Collison tweet this exact point that I'll read after you...

我实际上看到帕特里克·科里森（Patrick Collison）在推特上发了这一点，我会在你之后读到......

I want to hear your thoughts, but talk about what you've learned about how there's maybe not actually this trade-off between speed and quality.

我想听听你的想法，但请谈谈你所了解到的关于速度和质量之间实际上可能没有这种权衡的情况。

Nan Yu: People talk about this as if there were a trade-off almost in a naive way because when they think about speed, the thing they over index on is rushing or being sloppy, and what they should be indexing on is being really competent or being like an expert.

南宇：人们谈论这个问题时几乎天真地认为存在一种权衡，因为当他们考虑速度时，他们过度关注的是匆忙或马虎，而他们应该关注的是真正有能力或像专家一样。

So, if you look at people who are at the pinnacle of their craft, it could be anything.

所以，如果你看看那些处于技术巅峰的人，你会发现他们可能是任何人。

It could be like a chef or a programmer or someone building houses or something.

它可能就像厨师、程序员或者建造房屋之类的人。

You can basically tell how good the output is going to be of their work product by how fast they're going.

您基本上可以通过他们的工作速度来判断他们的工作产品的输出有多好。

If they're going really fast, and they're obviously not being sloppy and then leaving a mess all over the place, it's like, "Yeah.

如果他们走得非常快，而且他们显然不马虎，然后把地方弄得一团糟，那就像是，“是的。

Well, they got there because this is just second nature to them," and they're able to go at a really rapid pace and try stuff.

好吧，他们之所以能做到这一点，是因为这对他们来说只是第二天性，”而且他们能够以非常快的速度前进并尝试新事物。

And when we're building software, that's such a big component of how good the product is on the other side of it, which is like, "How many iterations were you able to do?" So, the only way you're going to get a bunch of iterations done and try different things and really feel out these different variations is by just going very fast.

当我们构建软件时，这是产品另一方面的好坏的一个重要组成部分，就像“你能够进行多少次迭代？”因此，完成大量迭代并尝试不同的事情并真正感受到这些不同变化的唯一方法就是非常快地进行。

Lenny Rachitsky: In terms of speed, is the speed there moving quickly on each of iterations?

Lenny Rachitsky：就速度而言，每次迭代的速度是否都很快？

Like what does speed look like when you say, "It can be done quickly and high quality"?

就像当你说“可以快速且高质量地完成”时，速度是什么样的？

What does speed look like?

速度是什么样的？

Nan Yu: Speed...

南宇：速度……

What it really looks like is you have some rough time budget for how long you think something's going to take, and by the time 10% of it has passed, you have a workable solution.

实际上，您对某件事需要多长时间有一些粗略的时间预算，当 10% 过去时，您就有了一个可行的解决方案。

It's not like, "Oh, at the halfway point, we have something that is maybe a candidate that we can play around with." It's like, no, no, no. After week one you have something that works that tests some kind of key hypothesis internally so that you can feel like is this thing actually panning out the way we expect it to or did we have some crazy incorrect assumption?

这并不是说，“哦，在中间点，我们有一些可能是我们可以尝试的候选者。”就像，不，不，不。第一周之后，你就会有一些东西可以在内部测试某种关键假设，这样你就会觉得这件事实际上是按照我们预期的方式发展的，还是我们有一些疯狂的错误假设？

And you don't want to wait until you're 80% done to be able to make that kind of judgment because then it's just too late.

你不想等到完成 80% 才能够做出这样的判断，因为那时就太晚了。

Then you're pushing deadlines out, and you're making your marketing team very sad.

然后你就会推迟最后期限，并且会让你的营销团队非常难过。

Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

Okay, so the way you think is, "We're going to spend a month on this feature.

好的，所以你的想法是，“我们将在这个功能上花费一个月的时间。

Let's get something workable.

让我们做一些可行的事情。

We can start testing with potential users even internally in the first few days, essentially in the first week"?

我们甚至可以在最初几天（基本上是第一周）开始对潜在用户进行内部测试”？

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。

I guess how can you do that?

我想你怎么能这么做呢？

Because most teams can't do that.

因为大多数团队都做不到这一点。

Most teams need to research, design, build.

大多数团队需要研究、设计、构建。

"Okay, cool.

“好吧，酷。

We have something," and once a month later, what allows you to do that?

我们有一些东西，”一个月后一次，是什么让你能够做到这一点？

Nan Yu: Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of components of it.

南宇：是的，我的意思是，它有很多组成部分。

I think having really good talent really helps.

我认为拥有真正优秀的才能确实有帮助。

Having engineers who don't get blocked by every single little design choice, they're happy to just make something workable.

他们的工程师不会被每一个小小的设计选择所阻碍，他们很乐意让一些东西变得可行。

Even if they don't feel comfortable with that particular solution, they'll just bust through it and make something happen there.

即使他们对这个特定的解决方案感到不舒服，他们也会克服它并在那里发生一些事情。

Part of it is intent.

部分原因是意图。

We don't have any expectation that the first version of it is going to be great.

我们并不期望它的第一个版本会很棒。

That is not in the cards.

那是不可能的。

Look, the first version of it is our best guess in the general direction of what we want to actually ship in the end, and sometimes it works out.

看，它的第一个版本是我们对最终想要实际交付的大致方向的最佳猜测，有时它会奏效。

Sometimes, it's like, "Wow, this first version was pretty good.

有时，就像，“哇，第一个版本非常好。

Let's make some minor adjustments, and we're good to go," but there's no expectation there.

让我们做一些小的调整，然后我们就可以开始了，”但是没有任何期望。

So, no one feels like they have to be a perfectionist and get everything, like all sanded down and really in tip-top shape.

因此，没有人觉得自己必须成为完美主义者并获得一切，就像所有东西都经过打磨并且真正处于最佳状态一样。

It just has to work and get the job done and validate or invalidate our major assumptions.

它只需要发挥作用并完成工作并验证或否定我们的主要假设即可。

Lenny Rachitsky: I'll read this quote from Patrick Collison.

Lenny Rachitsky：我会读一下 Patrick Collison 的这句话。

He tweeted this today as I was preparing for this interview, and he's the CEO and founder of Stripe, if you're not familiar.

今天，当我准备这次采访时，他发布了这条推文，如果你不熟悉的话，他是 Stripe 的首席执行官兼创始人。

His tweet is, "I increasingly believe that 'good, cheap, fast -- choose two' maxim is devious misinformation spread by the slow.

他的推文是：“我越来越相信‘好、便宜、快——二选一’的格言是缓慢传播的狡猾的错误信息。

In my experience, slow and expensive usually go together."

根据我的经验，缓慢和昂贵通常是相辅相成的。”

Nan Yu: Yeah, exactly.

南宇：是啊，确实如此。

I mean, use the contractor kind of example.

我的意思是，用承包商的例子。

Like If someone's making modifications to their house, and it's taking forever, one, you're in a hotel and also the bills are adding up.

就像如果有人要改造他们的房子，而且要花很长时间，一，你住在一家酒店，而且账单不断增加。

Lenny Rachitsky: The other example you used when we were chatting about this earlier is chess players.

Lenny Rachitsky：我们之前讨论这个问题时你使用的另一个例子是国际象棋棋手。

I'm thinking of Magnus Carlsen, watching him.

我想起了马格努斯·卡尔森，看着他。

I think he was number one in speed chess in addition to just regular chess and what a microcosm of this point.

我认为除了常规国际象棋之外，他在速度国际象棋方面也是第一，这就是这一点的缩影。

Nan Yu: Yeah, I think that's the case and Magnus and Hikaru and all those guys who are at the top of their game, they can go unbelievably fast.

Nan Yu：是的，我认为情况就是这样，Magnus 和 Hikaru 以及所有那些处于比赛巅峰的人，他们的速度快得令人难以置信。

In fact, that's the usual...

其实这就是平常...

I mean, I don't want to get too out of my depth with chess, but the usual way you try to make the game fair is you give them much, much less time than someone who's not quite as strong of a player, and they'll still win a lot of time, too.

我的意思是，我不想在国际象棋方面超出我的深度，但是为了让游戏公平，通常的方法是给他们比那些实力不那么强的人少得多的时间，而且他们仍然会赢得很多时间。

Lenny Rachitsky: So, maybe just to close out this point and give someone something concrete they can do with this information, say they want to start moving faster while not cutting quality, what do you think they can do?

Lenny Rachitsky：所以，也许只是为了结束这一点，并给某人一些他们可以利用这些信息做的具体事情，说他们想要开始更快地行动，同时不降低质量，你认为他们可以做什么？

What's one thing they can start trying to work on and improving in the way they operate?

他们可以开始尝试做哪一件事并改进他们的运作方式？

Nan Yu: I think it's really that sort of attitude and point of view question to understand and take the almost controlled risk that the first version of this is not going to be perfect.

南宇：我认为这确实是一种态度和观点问题，需要理解并承担几乎可控的风险，即第一个版本不会是完美的。

So, it actually makes it a lot cheaper in many ways.

因此，它实际上在很多方面都使其便宜得多。

It means you don't need a pixel perfect design.

这意味着您不需要像素完美的设计。

It means you don't need to make sure that all of the little UI bugs and stuff like that are solved because none of that really matters.

这意味着您不需要确保所有的 UI 小错误和类似的问题都得到解决，因为这些都不重要。

What matters is you have working software that you can interact with, and you can see if it feels good.

重要的是你有可以与之交互的工作软件，并且你可以看看它是否感觉良好。

Does it actually solve the core problem that is facing our users?

它真的解决了我们用户面临的核心问题吗？

You can take it back to users.

您可以将其返还给用户。

You can even let them into an early beta or something like that and get real validation there and to really focus on getting the smallest, shippable element, like not shippable in the sense of, "I can actually put on the production," but in the sense of like, "I can start learning from here."

你甚至可以让他们进入早期测试版或类似的东西，并在那里获得真正的验证，并真正专注于获得最小的、可交付的元素，就像不可交付的意义上，“我实际上可以投入生产”，但在意义上，“我可以从这里开始学习。”

Lenny Rachitsky: Just a question I imagine is in everyone's mind is what do you do with this first very ugly V1...

Lenny Rachitsky：我想每个人都会想到一个问题，那就是你如何处理这第一个非常丑陋的 V1...

not ugly, not fully ready, first version.

不难看，还没有完全准备好，第一个版本。

Is this something you're using internally to see if it's something?

这是你在内部使用的东西来看看它是否有什么东西吗？

Is it something you have beta design partners with?

您有测试版设计合作伙伴吗？

Nan Yu: We have a gradually increasing sort of circle of users that use every single feature.

南宇：我们使用每一项功能的用户圈子正在逐渐扩大。

So, by the time it hits GA, by the time it gets released, it's been used by a lot of different users up to that point.

因此，当它正式发布时，当它发布时，它已经被许多不同的用户使用。

So, the first circle is just internal users.

所以，第一个圈子只是内部用户。

We use Linear every single day to write software and do our own work, so we have that kind of advantage and then once we feel like it's good enough, we'll put it into some beta customer group, and again, as early as we can in the process.

我们每天都使用 Linear 来编写软件并完成我们自己的工作，因此我们拥有这种优势，一旦我们觉得它足够好，我们就会将其放入一些测试客户组中，并且在此过程中尽可能早地进行。

We have to make sure that we don't end up corrupting people's data, and it doesn't look hideous and that kind of stuff, but as long as it reaches that level of quality, we can release it to early access customers who can give us good feedback and also just try to solve their problems with it.

我们必须确保我们最终不会破坏人们的数据，而且它看起来并不可怕之类的东西，但只要它达到了这种质量水平，我们就可以将其发布给早期访问客户，他们可以给我们提供良好的反馈，并尝试用它解决他们的问题。

If no one engages with it, if no one's using it, then that's a good signal that we didn't really hit the mark, and then we have a couple of different beta audiences that we grow and then the ultimate release obviously is for GA where everyone gets it.

如果没有人参与它，如果没有人使用它，那么这是一个很好的信号，表明我们没有真正达到目标，然后我们有几个不同的测试版受众，我们增长了，然后最终的版本显然是针对 GA 的，每个人都可以得到它。

Lenny Rachitsky: That's an amazing answer.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个令人惊奇的答案。

Okay, so secret number one to Linear success, I'm going to take some notes here, is get new feature, product ideas out to people as early as possible, say, in the first 10% of the amount of time you've allotted, and then release it increasingly to more and more people to get feedback.

好的，线性成功的第一个秘诀，我要在这里记下一些笔记，就是尽早向人们提供新功能、产品创意，比如说，在分配的前 10% 时间内，然后逐渐将其发布给越来越多的人以获得反馈。

I think the implication here is just most wasted time is on building things nobody actually ends up wanting or using.

我认为这里的含义是，最浪费的时间是在构建最终没有人想要或使用的东西上。

So, the sooner you at least get directional sense of are you heading in a good direction, the faster it all go?

那么，你越早至少获得方向感，知道自己正朝着一个好的方向前进，一切就会进展得越快吗？

Lenny Rachitsky: I imagine a criticism you all get.

Lenny Rachitsky：我想你们都会受到批评。

People are like, "Yes, Linear is so great, so beautiful, so much better than what's been out there for decades," but over time you'll probably become a bloated piece of software as well.

人们会说，“是的，Linear 太棒了，太漂亮了，比几十年来的产品好得多”，但随着时间的推移，你可能也会变成一个臃肿的软件。

That's just the fate of enterprise software.

这就是企业软件的命运。

You have to check all these checkboxes.

您必须选中所有这些复选框。

IT teams need all these features.

IT 团队需要所有这些功能。

So, there's always this like, "Oh, yeah, sure, you guys can operate this way for now.

所以，总是会这样，“哦，是的，当然，你们现在可以这样操作。

You have an amazing product for now, but it'll get ugly and bloated." How do you think about avoiding that?

你现在拥有一个令人惊叹的产品，但它会变得丑陋和臃肿。”您认为如何避免这种情况？

I know it's something you spent a lot of time thinking about.

我知道这是你花了很多时间思考的事情。

Maybe give us a glimpse into some of the conversations you have internally when there's these feature requests like, "Oh, I need single sign-on with this thing and this button here." How do you think about what to add, what not to add, and how to add these features to not make it bloated?

也许可以让我们了解一下当出现这些功能请求时您内部进行的一些对话，例如“哦，我需要使用这个东西和这里的按钮进行单点登录。”您如何思考该添加什么、不添加什么以及如何添加这些功能才不会使其臃肿？

Nan Yu: This question actually comes to us a lot from candidates that are interviewing with us.

南宇：这个问题实际上是很多面试我们的候选人问到的。

When you go like, "Hey, do you have any questions for us?" This is the question that we're going to get.

当你说：“嘿，你有什么问题要问我们吗？”这就是我们要回答的问题。

So, we hear it quite a lot, and it's very sensible for them to ask it because they see history being littered with the corpses of startups trying to compete in this space and not making it, and I think when we examine this problem, we look at, "Well, what kind of feature requests can we debate and what kind of feature requests do we absolutely have to say no to?" And the stuff that we absolutely have to say no to is also the exact kind of thing that leads to this bloatedness that makes ICs hate their lives, and it's very specific.

所以，我们经常听到这样的说法，他们问这个问题是非常明智的，因为他们看到历史上充斥着试图在这个领域竞争却未能成功的初创公司的尸体，我认为，当我们研究这个问题时，我们会考虑，“好吧，我们可以辩论什么样的功能请求，以及我们绝对必须拒绝什么样的功能请求？”我们绝对要拒绝的东西也正是导致这种臃肿的东西，让 IC 讨厌他们的生活，而且它是非常具体的。

It's customization features requested by middle managers in order to make reporting a little bit easier at the cost of making IC workflows worse.

它是中层管理人员要求的定制功能，目的是使报告变得更容易，但代价是使 IC 工作流程变得更糟。

Nan Yu: It's like if it fits that description, we're just saying, "No." There's no debate because we've already thought about it and this is the thing that we can't take a single step down this path.

南宇：就好像如果它符合这个描述，我们就说“不”。没有争论，因为我们已经考虑过这个问题，而且我们不能在这条路上迈出一步。

So, I think that's honestly one of the core promises of Linear is that we will not make this particular trade-off.

所以，我认为老实说，Linear 的核心承诺之一是我们不会做出这种特殊的权衡。

So, when you see people saying like, "Wow, Linear is so much faster.

所以，当你看到人们说，“哇，线性速度快多了。

It's so much easier to use and it makes my work so much more enjoyable." This is the reason because we have not taken a single step in this direction.

它使用起来非常方便，也让我的工作变得更加有趣。”这是因为我们还没有朝这个方向迈出一步。

It's very easy for a PM to say yes to this kind of request because often they're talking with buyers.

产品经理很容易答应这种请求，因为他们经常与买家交谈。

Any kind of B2B type of space, they're talking with whoever the gatekeeper is and sales is putting pressure on them, and they're saying like, "Hey, we really want this one feature.

任何一种 B2B 类型的空间，他们都会与看门人交谈，销售会给他们带来压力，他们会说，“嘿，我们真的想要这个功能。

It's going to make our reporting nicer."

这将使我们的报道更加出色。”

Nan Yu: So, the director's going to be really excited by this, and we'll definitely make a buying decision based off of this, and we have to convince them that this is a false trade-off.

南宇：所以，导演会对此非常兴奋，我们肯定会据此做出购买决定，我们必须让他们相信这是一个错误的权衡。

The whole premise is wrong because the moment you start going down this path, and you make the IC user experience worse, they're just going to disengage.

整个前提都是错误的，因为一旦你开始走这条路，并且你让 IC 用户体验变得更糟，他们就会脱离。

No one has to do this.

没有人必须这样做。

If I'm an engineer, I get paid to write code.

如果我是一名工程师，我会通过编写代码获得报酬。

My performance review is based on my code contribution.

我的绩效评估是基于我的代码贡献。

It's not based on like, "Did I fill in all the tickets right?" So, I'm just not going to do that part, or I'm going to do it very sporadically, and then I'm going to just focus on my actual job.

它不是基于诸如“我是否正确填写了所有票据？”之类的问题。所以，我不会做那部分，或者我会偶尔做，然后我会专注于我的实际工作。

Nan Yu: And then all your reporting is wrong because all the data is wrong, and it's sparse, and you get situations where people will...

南宇：然后你所有的报道都是错误的，因为所有的数据都是错误的，而且数据很稀疏，你会遇到人们会......

They'll say like, "Well, here's a dropdown field that someone put in here that's required." There's nine choices.

他们会说，“好吧，这是一个有人在这里放置的必填下拉字段。”有九个选择。

I don't know what any of them meet, so I'm just going to pick one at random.

我不知道他们都满足什么，所以我只是随机挑选一个。

I'm still going to pick the first one.

我还是会选择第一个。

Also, I'm going to pray that my boss is not actually using this data to do any kind of reporting and that has consequence because the data can't possibly be correct.

另外，我要祈祷我的老板实际上没有使用这些数据来做任何类型的报告，这会产生后果，因为数据不可能是正确的。

So, I think for us, it's a very easy decision when it comes to that particular category of feature request.

因此，我认为对于我们来说，当涉及到特定类别的功能请求时，这是一个非常容易的决定。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love how simple and clear that is.

Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢它的简单明了。

Basically, you all have a policy.

基本上，你们都有政策。

We'll prioritize ICs over middle managers.

我们将优先考虑 IC 而非中层管理人员。

Especially, like I love that it's around reporting.

特别是，就像我喜欢它围绕着报告一样。

Almost always it sounds like, "I want to track what's happening."

听起来几乎总是“我想追踪正在发生的事情”。

Nan Yu: Yeah, exactly.

南宇：是啊，确实如此。

It's always, "I want to track what's happening." Well, what do you want to track?

它总是，“我想追踪正在发生的事情。”那么，您想跟踪什么？

Well, I want to track which version of the product this thing's tied to based on some field information.

好吧，我想根据一些现场信息来跟踪这个东西与哪个版本的产品相关。

It's like, okay, how is the person working on this supposed to even know that information?

就像，好吧，从事这项工作的人怎么可能知道这些信息呢？

Well, it takes like a five-minute scavenger hunt every single time.

好吧，每次都需要五分钟的寻宝游戏。

It's like, "I don't think they're going to do that, man."

就像，“我不认为他们会这么做，伙计。”

Lenny Rachitsky: What I imagine happens, and I think why this is hard for most companies is there's an implication that you're turning down deals.

Lenny Rachitsky：我想象中会发生什么，我认为为什么这对大多数公司来说很难，因为这意味着你正在拒绝交易。

You're not adding that one feature that will close a massive million-dollar sale, very difficult to do.

您添加的功能并不会带来百万美元的巨额销售，这是很难做到的。

I imagine it helps a lot that...

我想这会有很大帮助...

I imagine the COO is very bought into this and there's this, "We will win long-term holding the line on this." Is that right?

我想首席运营官对此非常认同，“我们将赢得长期坚守这一点。”是这样吗？

Nan Yu: So, it is, but I also think that there's not as much pressure as you would expect to do these kinds of things.

南宇：是的，但是我也认为做这些事情并没有你想象的那么大的压力。

There are basic scaling things, like we had to make SAML and SCIM and that kind of stuff.

有一些基本的扩展问题，比如我们必须制作 SAML 和 SCIM 之类的东西。

It's like, "Yeah, sure, we're going to do those sorts of, like keep the lights on type of work," but when it comes to work that's related to the actual business logic of the app's value proposition, what buyers care about is, is this going to make their team more effective?

就像，“是的，当然，我们要做那些类型的工作，比如保持工作类型的灯亮着”，但是当涉及到与应用程序价值主张的实际业务逻辑相关的工作时，买家关心的是，这会让他们的团队更加高效吗？

That's the reason that they're making this buying decision in the first place is that they're like, "Well, the current situation we're in...

这就是他们首先做出购买决定的原因是，“好吧，我们目前所处的情况......

" And especially with large companies, right?

“尤其是大公司，对吧？

The current situation we're in is a mess, and if we can convince them that these types of things are actually the reason that it's a mess, then we can really navigate them out of wanting them in the first place.

我们目前所处的情况一团糟，如果我们能让他们相信这些类型的事情实际上是造成混乱的原因，那么我们就可以真正引导他们从一开始就不想要它们。

Lenny Rachitsky: Got it.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：明白了。

So, there's an element of you think you need this, but it turns out you'll be more successful and get everything you want, not getting this?

所以，你有一个因素认为你需要这个，但事实证明你会更成功并得到你想要的一切，而不是得到这个？

Nan Yu: Yeah, and the thing is, it's not everything you want, right?

南宇：是啊，但问题是，这并不是你想要的一切，对吧？

Because people come with a laundry list, and it's like laundry list.

因为人们带着一份洗衣清单，它就像洗衣清单一样。

Here's 10 things I want.

这是我想要的 10 件事。

You're like, "Do you want all of those 10 things equally?" They're like, "No, actually I don't." The first three are the things that really matter to us.

你会问，“这 10 件事你想要的都一样吗？”他们会说：“不，实际上我不知道。”前三件事对我们来说真正重要。

If we solve the first three, then the other stuff, we can negotiate on.

如果我们解决了前三个问题，那么其他问题我们就可以协商。

So, our job is to solve the first three-way better than anybody else that if they got through the first three through some kind of visual programming, customization type of thing, that it's never going to get to the quality level and the depth that we're able to offer by offering those as native features.

因此，我们的工作是比其他人更好地解决前三个问题，如果他们通过某种可视化编程、定制类型的事情解决了前三个问题，那么它永远不会达到我们通过提供这些本地功能所能提供的质量水平和深度。

Lenny Rachitsky: It's interesting thinking back to that survey I shared where the tool people want to switch to if IT allowed them was Linear, and on the one hand you could argue, "Well, okay, IT is not letting them use Linear for all these reasons.

Lenny Rachitsky：回想一下我分享的那项调查很有趣，如果 IT 允许的话，人们希望改用 Linear 工具，一方面你可能会说，“好吧，IT 出于所有这些原因不允许他们使用 Linear。

On the other hand, you guys are growing really quickly within enterprise, like you're a new business.

另一方面，你们在企业内部发展得非常快，就像你们是一家新企业一样。

You started, I think, mid-market startups, and now you're working way up.

我想，你们是从中端市场初创公司开始的，现在你们正在一路向上。

So, I think it's not fair to say it's not going to work in enterprise.

因此，我认为说它在企业中不起作用是不公平的。

It's clearly working really well.

显然它运行得非常好。

I don't know if there's any stats you can share anything of that, but it seems to be going well, expanding up market.

我不知道是否有任何统计数据可以分享，但它似乎进展顺利，正在扩大市场。

Nan Yu: Yeah, I mean, growth has been good.

南宇：是的，我的意思是，增长很好。

Growth in enterprise has been leading the other segments because I think this year, especially we reached a tipping point where I think with software, so much of the buying decision is based on almost like a brand thing, like is this for us?

企业的增长一直领先于其他细分市场，因为我认为今年，特别是我们达到了一个转折点，我认为对于软件，很多购买决策几乎都是基于品牌的东西，就像这适合我们吗？

A lot of times people pick "enterprise software." It's like, "Why?

很多时候人们选择“企业软件”。就像，“为什么？

You know everyone doesn't want this," and they're like, "Yeah, but it's for us."

你知道每个人都不想要这个，”他们会说，“是的，但这是为了我们。”

Lenny Rachitsky: You won't get fired for buying Microsoft or whatever.

Lenny Rachitsky：你不会因为购买微软或其他什么而被解雇。

Nan Yu: Yeah, exactly, and I think that we're starting to have enough brand penetration amongst enterprises where people can have that feeling, right?

南宇：是的，确实如此，我认为我们开始在企业中拥有足够的品牌渗透力，人们可以有这种感觉，对吗？

They're like, "Hey, Linear is for us.

他们会说，“嘿，Linear 适合我们。

Who are we?

我们是谁？

Well, we are a large company that wants to act like a startup." It's like, "Who doesn't want that?

好吧，我们是一家大公司，希望表现得像一家初创公司。”这就像是，“谁不希望这样呢？

Who doesn't want to go fast?"

谁不想走快点呢？”

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。

I had Jeffrey Moore on the podcast, and this is exactly what crossing the chasm looks like.

我的播客中有杰弗里·摩尔，这正是跨越鸿沟的样子。

He talked about basically you need someone that's across the chasm like a later adopter that isn't the person that's, "I love new stuff, and I'm an early adopter kind of evangelist." You need someone that's like traditional old school, takes their time to start to adopt it for you to be like, "Oh, okay.

他谈到基本上你需要一个跨越鸿沟的人，就像后来的采用者一样，而不是那种“我喜欢新东西，而且我是早期采用者的传播者”的人。你需要一个像传统老派那样的人，花时间开始接受它，让你说，“哦，好吧。

Now, maybe I should really take it seriously."

现在，也许我真的应该认真对待这件事。”

Nan Yu: I also think that with this particular category of tool, and with a lot of other B2B software, not...

Nan Yu：我还认为，对于这一特定类别的工具，以及许多其他 B2B 软件，不......

Like no means not now, right?

就像“不”意味着现在不行，对吧？

Not right now because it doesn't fit our budget.

现在不行，因为它不符合我们的预算。

It doesn't fit our change management situation.

它不适合我们的变革管理情况。

"Oh, we have this exec that's really wedded to this other tool," but those things change, right?

“哦，我们有一位真正与其他工具结合在一起的高管，”但这些事情发生了变化，对吗？

So, we keep in contact with them.

因此，我们与他们保持联系。

They're in our CRM where we make sure we follow up, and we've had a lot of these where we've been said no to, like two years ago, and now we have some new features, and then go like, "Oh, yeah, it seems like you're ready for our scale," or whatever.

它们在我们的 CRM 中，我们确保跟进，我们有很多这样的功能，就像两年前一样，我们被拒绝了，现在我们有了一些新功能，然后说，“哦，是的，看来你已经准备好适应我们的规模了”，或者其他什么。

Lenny Rachitsky: You mentioned that when you have these debates and questions that come out, you have features that a big company wants.

Lenny Rachitsky：您提到，当出现这些辩论和问题时，您就拥有了大公司想要的功能。

There's this category of, "We know we will not build things for middle managers that want reporting and custom stuff just to track what's happening," versus something an IC wants to be more productive and successful, Linear.

有这样一个类别，“我们知道我们不会为中层管理人员构建东西，他们想要报告和定制东西只是为了跟踪正在发生的事情”，而不是 IC 希望提高生产力和成功的东西，线性。

Give us a little sense of some of the more complicated debates that aren't necessarily in that bucket.

让我们对一些不一定属于这一范围的更复杂的辩论有一些了解。

Nan Yu: I think the complicated debates are often when we do add a new native feature, do we extend an existing feature and make it more powerful or do we add a new sort of service?

南宇：我认为复杂的争论通常是当我们添加一个新的原生功能时，我们是扩展现有功能并使其更强大，还是添加一种新的服务？

And a big part of that is trying to figure out exactly who's going to use it, what are the actual real life use cases that we know about?

其中很大一部分是试图弄清楚谁将使用它，我们所知道的现实生活中的实际用例是什么？

Like that I know that Bob from Company X has this workflow and this is how it would work for him.

就像我知道 X 公司的鲍勃有这个工作流程，这就是他的工作方式。

Here are the different variations where it would work.

以下是它可以发挥作用的不同变体。

So, tying it all the way back to real people is-

所以，将其与真实的人联系起来是——

Nan Yu: Yeah, specific person.

南宇：是的，具体的人。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah, exactly.

是的，完全正确。

Not a hypothetical person.

不是一个假设的人。

Not one that you made up like Alice, Bob, or whatever.

不是你编造的像爱丽丝、鲍勃或其他什么的。

It's like, "No, here's the first name, last name.

就像，“不，这是名字，姓氏。

Here's their email.

这是他们的电子邮件。

You can ask them," and I think that being able to tie it all the way back to reality in that way is a big part of how we really think about and discuss these things.

你可以问他们，”我认为能够以这种方式将其与现实联系起来是我们真正思考和讨论这些事情的重要组成部分。

Lenny Rachitsky: This connects the way I think about my newsletter is I always try to answer the question a very specific, like a person actually asked, not a general sense of something people may be interested in, and that very specific question, like it implies there's a need.

Lenny Rachitsky：这与我思考时事通讯的方式有关，我总是尝试回答非常具体的问题，就像一个人实际问过的问题，而不是人们可能感兴趣的一般意义上的问题，而且这个非常具体的问题，就像它暗示有需要一样。

Like not implies, it proves there's at least one person who needs this thing versus you have this idea of somebody that may want this thing.

就像 not 暗示的那样，它证明至少有一个人需要这个东西，而不是你知道有人可能想要这个东西。

Nan Yu: Yeah.

南宇：是的。

I think a trap that a lot of times PMs will fall into is they'll make something, and they'll make some choices in it because maybe it's beautiful or it's elegant, but they don't go the step of like, "Is reality also beautiful and elegant?" Because reality is ugly sometimes, and if you have a beautiful and elegant solution that doesn't match with reality, it doesn't really matter.

我认为PM们很多时候会陷入的一个陷阱是他们会做一些事情，他们会在其中做出一些选择，因为也许它很美丽或很优雅，但他们不会迈出这样的一步，“现实也是美丽和优雅的吗？”因为现实有时是丑陋的，如果你有一个美丽而优雅的解决方案，但与现实不符，那并不重要。

People can look at it, and they can ooh and ah, but if they don't use it to get their work done, it's never going to have long-term staying power.

人们可以看到它，然后他们可以惊叹不已，但如果他们不使用它来完成工作，它永远不会有长期的持久力。

Lenny Rachitsky: Do you have a heuristic of how often you need to hear something for you to...

Lenny Rachitsky：您是否有一个启发式方法来计算您需要多长时间听到一些东西才能......

could be just convinced, this is worth investing in?

可以确信，这值得投资吗？

People may hear this, "Oh, one Bob.

人们可能会听到这样的话：“哦，一个鲍勃。

Bob wants this featured." That doesn't make sense.

鲍勃想要这个特色。”这没有道理。

It's just one guy.

这只是一个人。

How do you know when it's like, "Okay, we should really invest in this"?

你怎么知道什么时候会出现“好吧，我们真的应该投资于此”？

Nan Yu: Part of it is you hear something, and you're like, "Gosh, that actually is...

南宇：部分原因是你听到一些东西，然后你会想，“天哪，那实际上是......

" Not only is that true.

“不仅如此。

It means that the way we thought about this was a little bit wrong, and I call this process...

这意味着我们思考这个问题的方式有点错误，我把这个过程称为......

I don't know if it's the right way to describe it.

我不知道这样描述是否正确。

I call it a kneeling where you have a thing, and it's not quite the right shape, and you put it out into the wild.

我称之为跪式，你有一个东西，但它的形状不太正确，然后你把它放在野外。

So, this happens way in the first bit of the life of a particular feature.

因此，这种情况发生在特定功能生命周期的第一部分。

You release a thing, and then you start getting feedback about it, about hey, it doesn't quite fit reality, and then you ask yourself like, "Did we test that aspect of it?

你发布了一个东西，然后你开始收到关于它的反馈，关于嘿，它不太符合现实，然后你问自己，“我们测试了它的这方面吗？

Did we actually match that part to reality?" And if you didn't, then it's like that's the part where you don't actually need that many pieces of feedback against it.

我们真的将该部分与现实相匹配吗？”如果你没有，那么这就是你实际上不需要那么多反馈的部分。

It's not really a volume thing.

这并不是一个真正的体积问题。

It's like, "Did we think about this right or wrong?" That's one sort of category.

就像，“我们认为这个是对还是错？”这是一种类别。

Nan Yu: Another category is just you're getting a request for maybe a very big feature or a feature set from a lot of different people, but then you dig in, and you try to say like, "Okay.

Nan Yu：另一个类别是，你收到很多不同的人对一个非常大的功能或一个功能集的请求，但然后你深入挖掘，然后试着说，“好吧。

Well, tell me about how you're trying to use this," and there's 100 different use cases.

好吧，告诉我你想如何使用它”，有 100 个不同的用例。

So, you have choices here.

所以，你在这里有选择。

You can either build the big feature that covers all the long tail of use cases or you can try to see if there's really concentrated pools of use cases for this that really make a lot of sense to adopt as a first order type of feature.

您可以构建涵盖所有长尾用例的大型功能，也可以尝试查看是否存在真正集中的用例池，将其作为一阶功能类型采用确实很有意义。

So, I think those are the two sort of strategies that we employ the most.

所以，我认为这是我们最常采用的两种策略。

It's like, "Did we think about this wrong?

就像，“我们是不是想错了？

And now we're just learning something about how it matches reality or for this big general feature that people are asking for, are there actually more specific use cases that we should be solving, and we should be solving really, really well?"

现在我们只是在了解它如何与现实相匹配，或者对于人们所要求的这个大的一般功能，实际上是否有我们应该解决的更具体的用例，并且我们应该真正非常好地解决？”

Lenny Rachitsky: A thread that's coming through so far across a lot of these examples is getting to the specific person using the thing and making them happy and making sure the ask is going to solve their actual problem.

Lenny Rachitsky：到目前为止，在许多此类示例中都存在一条线索，那就是找到使用该产品的特定人员，让他们感到高兴，并确保提出的问题能够解决他们的实际问题。

In the case of looking at the IC versus the middle manager, in this case, it's like, "Let's talk to the person actually asking for this thing," not, "There's like 100 people generally asking for this thing and let's build what we think is a general solution."

就 IC 与中层管理人员而言，在这种情况下，就像是“让我们与实际要求这个东西的人谈谈”，而不是“一般有 100 个人要求这个东西，让我们构建我们认为的通用解决方案。”

Nan Yu: Yeah.

南宇：是的。

I'll give you an example of all of these things, which we just launched a feature called Customer Requests, and basically what this does, it adds a new concept of Linear, which is a customer.

我会给你一个所有这些事情的例子，我们刚刚推出了一个名为“客户请求”的功能，基本上它的作用是，它添加了一个新的线性概念，即客户。

For B2B companies, this is very relevant, and the reason we did this is because we kept getting this request for fully customized fields, and we would be like, "Well, what is it that you want with your custom fields?" Because the problem is you add 100 custom fields and all your ICs start hating it.

对于 B2B 公司来说，这是非常相关的，我们这样做的原因是因为我们不断收到对完全自定义字段的请求，我们会说，“那么，您对自定义字段的要求是什么？”因为问题是您添加了 100 个自定义字段，而您的所有 IC 都开始讨厌它。

So, we don't want to go down that path, but what is it actually you're trying to do?

所以，我们不想走这条路，但你到底想做什么？

And 40% of them were because, "Well, I have a customer," like Walmart or whatever, right?

其中 40% 的人是因为，“嗯，我有一个客户”，比如沃尔玛或其他什么地方，对吗？

Like, "Walmart asked for this feature, and it's really important.

就像，“沃尔玛要求这个功能，它真的很重要。

I need everyone to know that Walmart needs this.

我需要每个人都知道沃尔玛需要这个。

I need to track it.

我需要追踪它。

I need to see how have we report...

我需要看看我们如何报告...

"

”

Nan Yu: We can report on what have we done for Walmart over the past year so that when my CSM has a one-on-one conversation with a rep, they can have some kind of evidence that we've been doing stuff for them, like all this kind of stuff.

Nan Yu：我们可以报告过去一年我们为沃尔玛做了什么，这样当我的 CSM 与销售代表进行一对一对话时，他们就可以得到某种证据，证明我们一直在为他们做一些事情，比如所有这些事情。

We're like, "Okay.

我们就像，“好吧。

Cool." That sounds like a very useful and powerful thing you want to do.

酷。”这听起来像是您想做的一件非常有用且强大的事情。

How do you expect people to tag these things?

您希望人们如何标记这些东西？

Well, manually, because that's how we did it in our spreadsheets.

嗯，手动，因为我们在电子表格中就是这样做的。

It's like, "Okay, instead of that, we're going to hook up with your customer support tools.

就像，“好吧，我们将连接您的客户支持工具。

We're going to hook up with your CRNs.

我们将连接您的 CRN。

We're going to automatically bring in feedback from these companies.

我们将自动引入这些公司的反馈。

We're going to analyze the emails where they're from, and then if someone requests a feature that gets escalated into engineering, it'll just be tagged with whoever asked for it.

我们将分析电子邮件的来源，然后如果有人请求一项升级到工程的功能，它就会被标记为提出请求的人。

You don't have to do anything, but you will know, and you can still report on this stuff, but there's nothing about this that makes ICs lives harder.

你不需要做任何事情，但你就会知道，你仍然可以报告这些东西，但这并没有让 IC 的生活变得更困难。

Nan Yu: In fact, it makes them feel more confident because when they're building the thing, they actually understand who's asking for it and exactly what the email said.

南宇：事实上，这让他们感到更加自信，因为当他们构建这个东西时，他们实际上了解谁在要求它以及电子邮件到底说了什么。

So, when they're doing the design or the details, they can actually see the real-life use cases that are present and solve for those directly.

因此，当他们进行设计或细节时，他们实际上可以看到现实生活中存在的用例并直接解决这些用例。

Lenny Rachitsky: As I'm hearing this, it's like, "Okay, obviously, this seems like an obvious solution.

Lenny Rachitsky：当我听到这个消息时，我的感觉是，“好吧，显然，这似乎是一个显而易见的解决方案。

Of course, 40% of people telling me they have customers." In reality, most of the time, if you hear from a bunch of your customers, "Hey, I need this custom field," and sometimes you hear one thing, sometimes you hear another.

当然，40% 的人告诉我他们有客户。”事实上，大多数时候，如果您从一群客户那里听到，“嘿，我需要这个自定义字段”，有时您会听到一件事，有时您会听到另一件事。

Most of the time you're going to build this custom field.

大多数时候您将构建这个自定义字段。

Something that your head of sales shared with me is how impressed he is with the way you ask questions on customer calls and just keep digging and digging until you get to something that is an insight for you, and then you start to try to solve the problem for them and think about what the product might be, and I think this is such an important and underappreciated skill for PMs.

你们的销售主管与我分享的一件事是，他对您在客户电话中提出问题的方式印象深刻，并且不断挖掘和挖掘，直到您获得对您有洞察力的东西，然后您开始尝试为他们解决问题并思考产品可能是什么，我认为这对于产品经理来说是一项非常重要且未被充分重视的技能。

Is there any advice you could share of just how you approach this, how you ask questions, how you think about these customer calls to get to, "Okay, now, I see what we need to build versus let's just build what they're asking for"?

您有什么建议可以分享一下如何处理这个问题，如何提出问题，如何看待这些客户来电，“好吧，现在，我明白我们需要构建什么，而不是让我们构建他们所要求的”？

Nan Yu: It's funny because I think from the outside, I'm on these sales calls and then the AE or someone's watching me ask these questions, and I think often they're like, "What are you doing?

南宇：这很有趣，因为我认为从外部来看，我正在参加这些销售电话，然后 AE 或有人看着我问这些问题，我想他们经常会说，“你在做什么？

You're just asking questions from angles that I don't even know what your goal is here," and my goal is to feel bad in the same way that customers feel bad.

你只是从我什至不知道你的目标是什么的角度提出问题，”而我的目标是像顾客感觉不好一样感觉不好。

They come to us with a request, "Hey, we want X," and it's like there's something motivating it and you can do the normal analytical thing and be like, "Ask five whys," and try to figure out like, "Well, what are your goals?" "And as a persona X, I want to achieve this outcome." You can do it that way, but you might miss the reason that they actually feel bad for not having this thing like, "I can't accomplish this goal.

他们向我们提出请求，“嘿，我们想要 X”，就好像有某种东西在激励它，你可以做正常的分析，“问五个为什么”，然后尝试找出“嗯，你的目标是什么？” “作为一个角色 X，我希望实现这个结果。”你可以这样做，但你可能会错过他们实际上因为没有这样的事情而感到难过的原因，比如“我无法实现这个目标。

So what?" "So, I'm not going to get promoted at work."

那又怎样？” “所以，我不会在工作中升职。”

Nan Yu: Okay, great.

南宇：好的，太好了。

I understand the severity of your problem at this point.

我现在了解您问题的严重性。

What is the actual emotional valence that is motivating whatever you're telling me?

激发你告诉我的事情的实际情感价值是什么？

And it takes a little while to get there.

到达那里需要一点时间。

You can ask people directly like, "How do you feel?" And they're not necessarily going to tell you, but if you have a long enough and deep enough conversation with them, you start to level with them, and you're starting to see stuff from their perspective, and the more you see it from their perspective and the more they know that, the more they're willing to open up to you and tell you like, "Okay, honestly, I had this thing happen where I marked the ship date of this project as December 30th because it's a Q4 project, and I wanted to put it at the very end, and then my marketing team lost their mind because they're like, 'We can't ship something on December 30th.

你可以直接问别人，比如“你感觉怎么样？”他们不一定会告诉你，但如果你和他们进行了足够长、足够深入的对话，你就开始与他们坦诚相待，你开始从他们的角度看问题，你从他们的角度看的越多，他们知道的越多，他们就越愿意向你敞开心扉，告诉你，“好吧，老实说，我发生了这件事，我把这个项目的发布日期标记为 12 月 30 日，因为这是一个第四季度的项目，我想把它放在最后，然后我的营销团队就失去了理智，因为他们说，‘我们不能在 12 月 30 日发货。

Everyone's on vacation,'" and you're like...

每个人都在度假，’”而你就像......

And then they're like, "Yeah, this has made me feel really bad."

然后他们会说，“是的，这让我感觉非常糟糕。”

Nan Yu: So, I don't ever want to put dates on things ever again.

南宇：所以，我再也不想给事情加上日期了。

So, like, "Okay, cool.

所以，就像，“好吧，酷。

We can help you deal with that.

我们可以帮助您解决这个问题。

If that's what you're feeling, then I can start building stuff to make sure that you never have to have that bad feeling again."

如果你有这种感觉，那么我可以开始构建一些东西，以确保你永远不会再有那种不好的感觉。”

Lenny Rachitsky: People talk about empathy like, "You need to have empathy as a PM.

Lenny Rachitsky：人们谈论同理心时会说：“作为产品经理，你需要有同理心。

You need to build empathy the best product leaders, have empathy in this." I think it's such a succinct and powerful way of describing what empathy actually looks like as a product leader, which is I want to feel as bad as they feel in hearing the story they tell, and it sounds like the way you do that is you keep asking questions to understand the moment they felt bad about something.

你需要与最好的产品领导者建立同理心，对此要有同理心。”我认为这是一种简洁而有力的方式来描述作为产品领导者的同理心实际上是什么样子，也就是说，我希望像他们在听到他们讲述的故事时感到一样难过，而这听起来就像你所做的那样，当他们对某件事感到难过时，你不断地问问题来理解他们。

In this case, the deadline.

在这种情况下，截止日期。

Nan Yu: And if you ask somebody in that last story, like what kind of issue do you have?

南宇：如果你问最后一个故事中的某人，比如你有什么问题？

You're like, "Oh, marketing and I would just never align on anything." It's like that doesn't really tell you what's going on.

你会说，“哦，营销和我永远不会在任何事情上保持一致。”就好像这并不能真正告诉你发生了什么。

What it tells you is you had this terrible moment of communication that it's all miscommunicated, and you're like, "It's just going to keep happening over and over again." So, the thing that we did specifically to solve this was on projects in Linear, you can just specify a target date at whatever level of granularity you want.

它告诉你的是，你经历了这个可怕的沟通时刻，一切都沟通不畅，你会想，“这种情况只会一遍又一遍地发生。”因此，我们专门为解决这个问题所做的事情是在 Linear 项目中，您可以按照您想要的任何粒度级别指定目标日期。

You can say it's a December project.

你可以说这是一个12月的项目。

You can say it's a Q4 project.

你可以说这是一个第四季度的项目。

You can say it's a second half of 2024 project.

可以说这是2024年下半年的项目。

Like whatever you're happy promising, you can just put it on there and that way you never feel like you have to give this sense of false precision so that it ends up with a whole bunch of miscommunication down the line.

就像任何你乐意承诺的事情一样，你可以把它放在那里，这样你就永远不会觉得你必须给予这种错误的精确感，从而最终导致一大堆沟通不畅。

Lenny Rachitsky: I could see why people love Linear is it just makes them feel less bad less often.

Lenny Rachitsky：我可以理解为什么人们喜欢 Linear，因为它只是让他们感觉不那么糟糕。

There's a lot of connection here.

这里有很多联系。

I know this idea of emotions and feeling bad is a core part of how you think about building product, looking for moments.

我知道这种情绪和感觉不好的想法是你如何思考构建产品、寻找时刻的核心部分。

People feel bad.

人们感觉很糟糕。

Is there anything more you could share there to share how you think about this idea of emotional hooks, emotional moments, and how you decide what to build?

您还有什么可以分享的，以分享您如何看待情感挂钩、情感时刻的想法，以及您如何决定构建什么？

Nan Yu: So, to set the background of this, I've worked in very, very competitive industries.

南宇：所以，作为背景，我曾在竞争非常非常激烈的行业工作过。

I worked at Everlane, which was a direct-to-consumer clothing brand.

我在 Everlane 工作，这是一个直接面向消费者的服装品牌。

I worked in Mode, which is like BI tools and there's so many BI tools out there, and then obviously, Linear.

我在 Mode 中工作，这就像 BI 工具，而且有很多 BI 工具，当然还有 Linear。

We're project management.

我们是项目管理。

There's a lot of project management tools, and I think the more competitive your industry is, the more the low-hanging goal-oriented stuff is already picked because every PM from every one of these companies has been asking like, "Well, what's your goal?

有很多项目管理工具，我认为你所在的行业竞争越激烈，就越容易选择以目标为导向的简单工具，因为这些公司的每一位产品经理都在问这样的问题：“那么，你的目标是什么？

What is your job to be done," and all this kind of stuff.

你要做什么”之类的事情。

So, you have to look at things from an angle that other people might not have seen and for me, and for us, it's the angle of where are the emotional hooks that you're experiencing as you go through your work day, as you use our product, as you use competitors' products?

所以，你必须从其他人可能没有看到的角度来看待事物，对我来说，对我们来说，这个角度是你在工作日、使用我们的产品、使用竞争对手的产品时所经历的情感钩子在哪里？

Nan Yu: I think it's probably underexplored because...

南宇：我认为这可能还没有得到充分探索，因为......

I don't know.

我不知道。

I feel like PMs and engineers, we're like very thinky people.

我觉得产品经理和工程师都是非常有思想的人。

We avoid the touchy-feely stuff.

我们避免敏感的事情。

So, I think that's the opportunity.

所以，我认为这就是机会。

You can see where are you feeling bad throughout your day where you don't even know?

您可以看到一天中哪些地方让您感觉不舒服，而您甚至不知道？

You might think, "I hate Mondays." "Why do you hate Mondays?" "Well, on Mondays, I have to go out and gather a whole bunch of stuff to write this report that it's really annoying." "Oh, so if I gave you a button that made the report, would that help?" It's like, "Oh, yeah, then I might not hate Monday so much." So, I think Paul Graham has a word for this.

你可能会想，“我讨厌星期一。” “你为什么讨厌星期一？” “嗯，周一我必须出去收集一大堆东西来写这份报告，这真的很烦人。” “哦，那么如果我给你一个报告按钮，会有帮助吗？”就像，“哦，是的，那我可能就不会那么讨厌星期一了。”所以，我认为保罗·格雷厄姆对此有一句话。

He calls it schlep blindness, right?

他称之为失明，对吗？

It's like I'm schlepping through life, and I'm just completely blind to it, and it's true.

就好像我正在缓慢地度过一生，而我对此完全视而不见，这是真的。

You have to have an outsider come in and see what the rhythm of your feelings are throughout the day, throughout the week, and you note the spots where you could really use a lot of improvement.

你必须让一个局外人进来，看看你一整天、一周的感受节奏如何，然后你记下哪些地方是你真正需要改进的地方。

Lenny Rachitsky: Is there an example?

Lenny Rachitsky：有例子吗？

I've shared a couple, but just where you've noticed this in someone using maybe a competitor or even Linear that you solved.

我已经分享了一些，但是您在使用您解决的竞争对手甚至 Linear 的人中注意到了这一点。

I know you gave an example of the dates.

我知道你举了一个日期的例子。

I guess is there anything else?

我想还有别的事吗？

Nan Yu: A big feature that people love about Linear is we have this thing called Triage Management, and what it does is it systemizes this thing where if I put an issue into a different team, if I'm asking them to do something or I'm reporting a bug to them, it sticks in a special zone where it'll notify the right people.

Nan Yu：人们喜欢 Linear 的一个重要功能是我们有一个叫做分类管理的东西，它的作用是将这个东西系统化，如果我把一个问题交给另一个团队，如果我要求他们做某事或者我向他们报告一个错误，它会粘在一个特殊的区域，在那里它会通知正确的人。

They're on a rotation and people will be able to respond to it in an organized manner, and I think this kind of automation, this feature, it came out of two different fields people were having.

他们是轮换的，人们将能够以有组织的方式对其做出反应，我认为这种自动化，这种功能，它来自人们所拥有的两个不同领域。

One, people were trying to implement this stuff by hand, and it was just a lot of touches, and they were doing it, but they felt like, "Oh, I'm totally underwater." "Why are you under water?" "Well, I have to throw all these tickets around and route them correctly and stuff like that," and they didn't see this as an opportunity to have a tool specialize in managing their triage queue.

第一，人们试图用手实现这些东西，这只是很多接触，他们正在这样做，但他们感觉，“哦，我完全在水下。” “你为什么在水下？” “好吧，我必须扔掉所有这些票并正确路由它们之类的东西，”他们并不认为这是一个拥有专门管理分流队列的工具的机会。

Nan Yu: Because they were managing by hand....

南宇：因为他们是手工管理的……

They were on top of it, but it just felt really bad because they just had to spend so much attention doing this and then there's the folks who didn't do that.

他们在这上面，但感觉真的很糟糕，因为他们必须花太多的注意力来做这件事，而有些人却没有这样做。

The feeling was just like, "Well, it's totally out of control.

那种感觉就像是，“好吧，这完全失控了。

People are just throwing tickets over the wall, and I don't know what to do with them.

人们只是把票扔到墙上，我不知道如何处理它们。

I don't know where they are.

我不知道他们在哪里。

They end up in all these holes and then the people on the other side are like, "I throw tickets over the wall.

他们最终陷入了所有这些洞，然后另一边的人就像，“我把票扔到墙上。

I have no idea what happens to them.

我不知道他们会发生什么。

I have no expectation that people are ever going to respond to them." So, there's all of these bad feelings that people are having.

我不期望人们会对他们做出回应。”所以，人们有所有这些不好的感觉。

They all have the same root cause, which is like there wasn't a very automated organized way to deal with your triage queue.

它们都有相同的根本原因，就像没有一种非常自动化的组织方式来处理您的分类队列一样。

Lenny Rachitsky: Marketers, I know that you love TLDRs.

Lenny Rachitsky：营销人员，我知道你们喜欢 TLDR。

So, let me get right to the point.

那么，让我开门见山吧。

Wix Studio gives you everything you need to cater to any client at any scale, all in one place.

Wix Studio 为您提供满足任何规模的任何客户所需的一切，一切都在一个地方。

Here's how your workflow could look.

您的工作流程如下所示。

Scale content with dynamic pages and reusable assets effortlessly.

使用动态页面和可重用资源轻松扩展内容。

Fast-track projects with built-in marketing integrations like Meta, CAPI, Zapier, Google Ads, and more.

使用 Meta、CAPI、Zapier、Google Ads 等内置营销集成快速跟踪项目。

A-B test landing pages in days, not weeks with intuitive design tools.

使用直观的设计工具，只需几天而不是几周的时间即可对登陆页面进行 A-B 测试。

Connect to tracking and analytics tools like Google Analytics and Semrush, and capture key business events without the hassle of manual setup.

连接到 Google Analytics 和 Semrush 等跟踪和分析工具，捕获关键业务事件，无需手动设置的麻烦。

Manage all your client's social media and communications from a unified dashboard, then create schedule and post content across all their channels.

从统一的仪表板管理客户的所有社交媒体和通信，然后创建时间表并在所有渠道上发布内容。

If you're on content-rich sites, Wix Studio's no-code CMS lets you build and manage without touching the design.

如果您访问的是内容丰富的网站，Wix Studio 的无代码 CMS 可以让您在不触及设计的情况下进行构建和管理。

And when you're ready for more, Wix Studio grows with you.

当您准备好接受更多时，Wix Studio 会与您一起成长。

Add your own code, create custom integrations with Wix-made APIs, or leverage robust native business solutions.

添加您自己的代码，创建与 Wix 制造的 API 的自定义集成，或利用强大的本机业务解决方案。

Drive real client growth with Wix Studio.

通过 Wix Studio 推动真正的客户增长。

Go to wixstudio.com.

访问 wixstudio.com。

Lenny Rachitsky: I'm going to try to summarize some of the secrets of Linear's success so far.

Lenny Rachitsky：我将尝试总结 Linear 迄今为止成功的一些秘诀。

So, the first is get something out as quickly as possible, say, in the first 10% of the time that you have to build this thing and get it out to internal users and then maybe a growing list of beta users and people that are aware of they're using early stuff.

因此，首先是尽快推出一些东西，比如说，在前 10% 的时间里，你必须构建这个东西并将其提供给内部用户，然后可能会有越来越多的测试版用户和意识到他们正在使用早期东西的人。

Two is prioritize the IC and the user, basically, versus the buyer or the middle manager that wants reporting and all these custom features.

二是优先考虑 IC 和用户，而不是需要报告和所有这些自定义功能的买家或中层管理人员。

So, it's basically focused on the user, which I think you hear a lot, but I love this very specific example.

所以，它基本上关注的是用户，我想你已经听过很多次了，但我喜欢这个非常具体的例子。

Three is when you hear asks for features and requests, get to the specific person using the thing, not just general, "Okay, cool.

三是当你听到功能和要求时，找到使用该东西的特定人，而不仅仅是一般性的，“好吧，酷。

I've heard it 100 times." Find the person that actually needs this thing and understand what's going on, and then four is look for people feeling bad in a moment working in the product.

我已经听过 100 遍了。”找到真正需要这个东西的人并了解发生了什么，然后四是寻找在产品中工作的某个时刻感觉不好的人。

Is there anything else that I'm missing that's important or any nuance you want to add?

还有什么我遗漏的重要内容或者您想补充的任何细微差别吗？

Nan Yu: The part where you said, like focus on the user, I think it's maybe a little bit more subtle than that.

南宇：你说的，比如关注用户，我觉得可能比这更微妙一些。

There's a nuance which is find where the incentives are really misaligned amongst your user base.

存在一个细微差别，即用户群中的激励措施确实不一致。

There's a middle manager that wants really detailed reporting and there's a IC who just really doesn't want to go through all those extra steps, and the incentives for what they want are just very...

有一位中层经理想要真正详细的报告，有一位 IC 真的不想经历所有这些额外的步骤，而他们想要的激励措施非常......

They're just very misaligned, and you have to find those situations and be pretty judicious about how you make those trade-offs and where you can really find win-win outcomes there.

它们只是非常不一致，你必须找到这些情况，并非常明智地做出这些权衡，以及在哪里可以真正找到双赢的结果。

Lenny Rachitsky: That's a really important nuance.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个非常重要的细微差别。

Something else that's come through a couple of times as you've been talking is also something Patrick Collison tweeted once that has stuck with me, which is this idea of having a mental model in your head of the user.

在你谈论的过程中，曾多次出现过的其他事情也是帕特里克·科里森（Patrick Collison）曾经在推特上发过的，让我印象深刻，这就是在用户头脑中建立一个心理模型的想法。

So, the way he described it and the way you've described it is oftentimes people are like, "Cool.

所以，他描述它的方式和你描述它的方式通常人们都会说，“酷。

We're going to figure out what to build.

我们将弄清楚要构建什么。

We're going to do a bunch of research, talk to users.

我们将进行大量研究，与用户交谈。

That'll inform what we build, and we build it, versus what you've been saying and what he said is you do a bunch of research, look at data, talk to people.

这将告诉我们要构建什么，我们会构建它，而不是你一直在说的，他说的是你做了很多研究，查看数据，与人们交谈。

That informs your mental model of what the customer needs in their life, and then that informs what you build.

这告诉你的心理模型，了解客户在生活中需要什么，然后告诉你要构建什么。

So, that anytime you do more research, talk to customers, it's informing your view of the person, and then you're like, "Oh, this was different from what I imagined," or, "Oh wow.

所以，任何时候你做更多的研究，与客户交谈，它都会告诉你对这个人的看法，然后你会想，“哦，这与我想象的不同，”或者，“哦哇。

This is exactly what we've been thinking and let's build that." Anything along those lines that you might want to share?

这正是我们一直在想的，让我们来实现它。”您可能想分享一些类似的内容吗？

Nan Yu: Yeah, I mean, I can tell you a little bit about how we manage our backlog, which I think actually ties directly into this.

南宇：是的，我的意思是，我可以告诉你一些关于我们如何管理积压的信息，我认为这实际上与此直接相关。

At any given moment, we have probably 20 or 30 opportunities that we could possibly explore, just product opportunities, like problems to solve, areas to improve for our users, but they're not ready yet.

在任何特定时刻，我们可能有 20 或 30 个可以探索的机会，只是产品机会，比如需要解决的问题、需要为用户改进的领域，但他们还没有准备好。

We don't have enough conviction around how we might approach it.

我们对如何处理它没有足够的信心。

So, we just accumulate understanding of this stuff and periodically, we accumulate some more stuff, and then we reevaluate, "Okay, what is our current understanding of how we might best approach this thing?" And I think something that people struggle with is that they might have this model in their head.

所以，我们只是积累对这些东西的理解，并定期积累更多的东西，然后我们重新评估，“好吧，我们目前对如何最好地处理这件事的理解是什么？”我认为人们感到困扰的是他们脑子里可能有这个模型。

Like a PM might have this model in their head about how a user behaves, but it's just very hard to share that with someone else.

就像产品经理的头脑中可能有关于用户行为的模型一样，但很难与其他人分享。

You have to telepathically throw it into their brain, which is hard.

你必须通过心灵感应把它扔进他们的大脑，这很难。

So, what we try to do is identify areas that we might attack with a product, but also keep an up-to-date analysis of each of those areas so that everyone can engage with it and also contribute.

因此，我们试图做的是确定我们可能用产品攻击的领域，同时对每个领域进行最新分析，以便每个人都可以参与其中并做出贡献。

Lenny Rachitsky: Is there an example of something that's sitting in your roadmap?

Lenny Rachitsky：您的路线图中有什么例子吗？

I don't know if you could share these sort of things that's just sitting in the backlog of just like, "We're not quite ready to tackle this yet, but here's something we're inkling on."

我不知道你是否可以分享这些积压的事情，就像“我们还没有准备好解决这个问题，但这是我们正在考虑的事情。”

Nan Yu: Yeah, sure.

南宇：是的，当然。

Capacity planning is a thing that's been sitting in our backlog, and it's something that we see managers struggle with all the time, which is like I have a limited amount of personnel and resources, and I need to deploy them in such a way where we can theoretically accomplish our roadmap, but also we don't get blocked by some bottleneck that we don't end up blocking all of the projects because this one engineer is stuck on some info thing, and that's a thing people struggle with all the time.

容量规划是我们积压的一件事，我们看到经理们一直在努力解决这个问题，就像我的人员和资源有限，我需要以这样的方式部署它们：理论上我们可以完成我们的路线图，但我们也不会被某些瓶颈所阻碍，我们不会最终阻止所有项目，因为这个工程师被困在一些信息问题上，这是人们一直在努力解决的问题。

All the solutions out there are bad.

现有的所有解决方案都很糟糕。

The best solution is a very, very custom spreadsheet that someone would make, and it's a lot of upkeep.

最好的解决方案是由某人制作一个非常非常定制的电子表格，并且需要大量维护。

So, we have some ideas about how we might automate this, how we might use existing data within Linear to really help out with this problem, but I don't think we've quite cracked it yet.

因此，我们对如何实现自动化、如何使用 Linear 中的现有数据来真正帮助解决这个问题有一些想法，但我认为我们还没有完全解决这个问题。

Nan Yu: I think there's some nuances that we have to really explore a little bit further.

南宇：我认为有一些细微差别我们必须进一步探讨。

So, we're continuously developing this, and as we hear from hear from users that are struggling with this problem, we will get on a call with them and sit down with them and talk through it.

因此，我们正在不断开发此功能，当我们听到正在解决这个问题的用户的声音时，我们将与他们通电话并坐下来讨论这个问题。

Lenny Rachitsky: And the idea there is keep informing this mental model, keep informing what this could be until you get to a place of like, "Okay.

Lenny Rachitsky：这个想法是不断地告知这种心理模型，不断地告知这可能是什么，直到你到达这样的地方，“好吧。

Cool.

酷。

I think we figured out what will really solve this problem in an elegant way"?

我认为我们找到了真正能以优雅的方式解决这个问题的方法”？

Nan Yu: Yeah, and I want to really stress a nuance here, which is it's not that we want to solve the entire problem.

南宇：是的，我想在这里强调一个细微差别，那就是我们并不是想解决整个问题。

The entire problem is quite big, but there's something that's really right for Linear to do that would help people have a good starting point for them to reason about it.

整个问题相当大，但是 Linear 做的一些事情确实是正确的，可以帮助人们有一个很好的起点来推理它。

So, I think a lot of building conviction around stuff is not even like do we have a workable solution?

所以，我认为围绕事物建立很多信念甚至不是我们有一个可行的解决方案吗？

It's like how much of the problem should we actually take on?

这就像我们实际上应该承担多少问题？

Because if we take on too much of the problem, then we'll end up overpromising and not being able to deliver on it.

因为如果我们承担太多的问题，那么我们最终会承诺过多而无法兑现。

Lenny Rachitsky: I think what's also useful here is you all keep your team very small intentionally and being constrained keeps you from taking on these things too early because you don't have the engineers to build their designers.

Lenny Rachitsky：我认为这里也有用的是，你们都故意让自己的团队规模很小，并且受到限制，可以防止你们过早地承担这些事情，因为你们没有工程师来构建他们的设计师。

Nan Yu: Yeah, that's true.

南宇：是的，确实如此。

I actually hadn't really put that part together, but I think some of the reason we've done it this way is because we don't have the bandwidth to action everything.

实际上我并没有真正将这部分放在一起，但我认为我们这样做的部分原因是因为我们没有足够的带宽来执行所有操作。

So, we have this backlog that we maintain to make sure that when we do take it on, we're pretty set up for success.

因此，我们保留了这些积压的工作，以确保当我们真正接受它时，我们已经为成功做好了充分的准备。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, it's interesting.

Lenny Rachitsky：是的，这很有趣。

I think a lot of companies are starting to realize that they can build better products and move faster with fewer teams.

我认为很多公司开始意识到他们可以用更少的团队打造更好的产品并更快地发展。

I want to move in a different direction and talk a bit about how you actually think about building new products.

我想转向不同的方向，谈谈您对构建新产品的实际想法。

Something that I've heard from you is that you have a systemized way of being creative, which I think is a dream for a lot of people's.

我从你那里听说，你有一种系统化的创造力方式，我认为这是很多人的梦想。

It's like how do I be more creative?

就像我如何变得更有创造力？

How do I think of new innovative concepts?

我如何看待新的创新概念？

You have a really interesting process for how you do this.

你有一个非常有趣的过程来做到这一点。

Can you talk about it?

你能谈谈吗？

Nan Yu: Yeah, totally.

南宇：是的，完全可以。

I think when people talk about being creative, a lot of times what they have a problem with is extrapolating.

我认为当人们谈论创造力时，很多时候他们遇到的问题是推断。

They can see the stuff that's right in front of them, but what about two or three steps down the line?

他们可以看到就在他们面前的东西，但是沿着线走两到三步呢？

And then it's just like, "Well, there's just so much possibility.

然后就像是，“嗯，可能性有很多。

I don't know what direction to go." So, the way that we try to do it is we ask a question which is like, "Okay, how extreme can you take it?

我不知道该往哪个方向走。”所以，我们尝试这样做的方式是问一个问题，比如“好吧，你能接受多极端的情况？

You're designing a product.

你正在设计一个产品。

You're trying to come up with a solution.

你正试图想出一个解决方案。

What's the most outrageous version of this along some trait?" I don't know if you guys did this at Airbnb, but I think Brian Chesky talks about like, "What's the 11-star experience?" Is that a thing you guys did?

就某些特征而言，最令人震惊的版本是什么？”我不知道你们在 Airbnb 是否这样做过，但我认为 Brian Chesky 会说“什么是 11 星级体验？”这是你们干的事吗？

Lenny Rachitsky: It was a thing he talked about.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是他谈到的一件事。

Yeah, there's always a push of what's the 10X version of some idea.

是的，总是有人会推动某个想法的 10 倍版本。

Nan Yu: When you think in that way, when you're saying like, "Hey, what's the 11-star experience?" What you're really asking is like, "Hey, what's the most luxurious version of this hotel stay?

南宇：当你这样想的时候，当你说，“嘿，11星的体验是什么？”你真正想问的是，“嘿，这家酒店住宿最豪华的版本是什么？

Or what's the most unforgettable kind of experience we can give people?" And you throw away things, I don't know, like cost.

或者说我们能给人们最难忘的体验是什么？”我不知道你会扔掉一些东西，比如成本。

You throw away things like practicality because that's not what's interesting.

你抛弃了诸如实用性之类的东西，因为那不是有趣的东西。

What's interesting is I want to actually explore the possibility space, and I think this is really important to do because the goal is to get you to see beyond your defaults.

有趣的是，我想真正探索可能性空间，我认为这非常重要，因为目标是让你看到超越你的默认值的东西。

We have all of these constraints that we're operating under that we psychically have in the back of our heads that we just don't even realize we have them.

我们在精神上受到所有这些限制的影响，但我们甚至没有意识到我们拥有它们。

So, just break past all of them, and then you can really see what your options are because we talk about product decisions.

因此，只要突破所有这些，然后您就可以真正看到您的选择是什么，因为我们谈论的是产品决策。

It's like, "Oh, yeah, you have these choices.

就像，“哦，是的，你有这些选择。

What are you going to decide?" There's all this decision-making kind of theory.

你打算做什么决定？”有所有这些决策理论。

Nan Yu: But the biggest risk is you didn't see the right choice to begin with.

南宇：但是最大的风险是你一开始就没有看到正确的选择。

You have these three choices and none of them were right.

你有这三个选择，但没有一个是正确的。

It's this fourth one that was over in this corner, but you didn't look in that corner, so you never found it.

就是第四个就在这个角落里，但是你没有往那个角落里看，所以你从来没有找到它。

So, I think the whole goal of this is to try to expand the search space of what you're trying to do.

所以，我认为这样做的全部目标是尝试扩大你想要做的事情的搜索空间。

Lenny Rachitsky: So, what you're saying is people often don't think out of the box enough by not thinking too radically enough.

Lenny Rachitsky：所以，你的意思是，人们往往没有足够的跳出框框思考，因为思考得不够激进。

So, the choices they're deciding between are just meh options and there's this process of breaking out of that, and I think you could hear this and be like, "Yeah, sure." I could spend 10 minutes being like, "Oh, hey, what's the craziest - "

所以，他们做出的选择只是一些无聊的选择，并且有一个突破这个过程的过程，我想你可能会听到这个并且会说，“是的，当然。”我可以花 10 分钟思考，“哦，嘿，最疯狂的是什么——”

Lenny Rachitsky: But you're saying that actually is what you do and that actually works really well?

Lenny Rachitsky：但你是说这实际上就是你所做的，而且效果真的很好？

Nan Yu: Yeah, and you actually build it.

南宇：是的，你真的建造了它。

You can think of a very extreme version of a product and you can say, "Hey, let's actually...

你可以想象一个产品的一个非常极端的版本，你可以说，“嘿，让我们实际上......

" For the first version, we talked about, like the first version, you know it's not really the right answer.

“对于第一个版本，我们谈到，就像第一个版本一样，你知道这并不是真正的正确答案。

Sometimes, you know it's so hard because you know this is the most extreme version of the answer.

有时，您知道这很难，因为您知道这是答案的最极端版本。

So, let's build that as fast as we can and see how it feels, and then we're going to learn so much about what the right actual answer is because we have seen this area of the product space and really felt it.

因此，让我们尽快构建它并看看它的感觉如何，然后我们将了解正确的实际答案是什么，因为我们已经看到了产品空间的这个领域并真正感受到了它。

Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

Let's talk about an example of this because this feels awesome.

让我们来讨论一个例子，因为这感觉很棒。

Nan Yu: Yeah, I can talk to an example.

南宇：是的，我可以举个例子。

Actually, is it okay if I demo something?

事实上，我可以演示一些东西吗？

Lenny Rachitsky: Absolutely.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：当然。

Let's do it.

我们开始做吧。

Show and tell.

展示并讲述。

Nan Yu: Yeah, let me do that right now.

南宇：好的，我现在就做。

Lenny Rachitsky: Here we go.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我们开始吧。

We're going to share screen.

我们将共享屏幕。

Nan Yu: All right.

南宇：好的。

So, this is just like a demo space instead of Linear.

所以，这就像一个演示空间而不是线性空间。

So, the feature where we did this that I remember very clearly, because it was recent, is we built this feature to save drafts for your issues.

所以，我记得很清楚，因为它是最近的，我们这样做的功能是我们构建这个功能来保存您的问题的草稿。

So, Linear, as hard as an issue tracker, if I make a new issue and let's say I'm trying to report a bug or something, so it's like I make a bug report, then I might start thinking through like, "Okay, what are the repro steps?" And then I start typing them, and this happens all the time.

所以，线性，就像问题跟踪器一样困难，如果我提出一个新问题，假设我正在尝试报告错误或其他东西，就像我做了错误报告一样，那么我可能会开始思考，“好吧，重现步骤是什么？”然后我开始打字，这种情况经常发生。

When you're at work, you're doing this and someone distracts you.

当你在工作时，你正在这样做，有人分散了你的注意力。

If someone pings you on Slack or you have to go to a meeting or something like that, you're like, "I got to put this away for a second.

如果有人在 Slack 上联系你，或者你必须去参加一个会议或类似的事情，你会说，“我得把这件事暂时搁置一下。

I'll come back to it later." Note to self, figure out the actual repro steps and do it.

我稍后再回来讨论。”自我提醒，弄清楚实际的重现步骤并执行。

Nan Yu: So, what can you do?

南宇：那你能做什么呢？

Well, you want to save it as a draft.

好吧，您想将其另存为草稿。

So, we're like, "Okay, this is the problem," and the first version of this, we're like, "What do we want to do?

所以，我们就像，“好吧，这就是问题所在”，而第一个版本，我们就像，“我们想做什么？

Linear is about being fast." So, we don't want to get in your way.

线性就是要快。”所以，我们不想妨碍你。

We want to say like, "What is the fastest draft saving experience possible?" So, if you save it as draft, you can save it as draft.

我们想说，“最快的草稿保存体验是什么？”因此，如果将其另存为草稿，则可以将其另存为草稿。

If you decide to not...

如果你决定不...

you want to throw it away, you don't want it, just hit the X button, and it'll just throw it away.

你想扔掉它，你不想要它，只需点击 X 按钮，它就会把它扔掉。

We're not going to interrupt you with a popup that says like, "Do you want to save your changes," or any of that kind of stuff.

我们不会用弹出窗口来打断您，比如“您想保存更改吗？”或任何类似的内容。

We'll just absolutely get out of your way fast as possible.

我们绝对会尽快让开。

So, we're like, "What's the risk here?" Well, it might feel really unsafe.

所以，我们会想，“这里有什么风险？”嗯，可能感觉真的不安全。

Nan Yu: If you close this, and we don't ask you if you want to save change, you might feel like, "Oh, I just lost my changes on accident." We knew that going in.

南宇：如果你关闭这个，并且我们不询问你是否要保存更改，你可能会觉得，“哦，我只是不小心丢失了更改。”我们知道要进去。

We built this anyway, and it felt super unsafe.

不管怎样，我们建造了这个，但感觉非常不安全。

It turns out that sort of inkling that we had was true, and we really felt exactly how unsafe it was.

事实证明，我们的这种预感是真实的，我们确实感受到了它是多么不安全。

So, then we were like, "Okay, well, what's the safest thing we could possibly do?" The safest thing is just auto save everything.

所以，然后我们就想，“好吧，我们能做的最安全的事情是什么？”最安全的就是自动保存所有内容。

So, you start a new issue, and then you start typing some stuff, and it's just like auto saving as soon as you type a single character and that did feel quite safe.

因此，您开始一个新问题，然后开始输入一些内容，就像您输入单个字符后就会自动保存一样，这确实感觉很安全。

So, cool, but it also ended up leaving behind a whole bunch of like a paper trail of things you change your mind about.

所以，很酷，但它最终也留下了一大堆你改变主意的事情的纸质记录。

You've probably had this happen in document tools where you have a whole bunch of things in your space called like Untitled Document or New Document and stuff like that.

您可能在文档工具中遇到过这种情况，您的空间中有一大堆东西，称为“无标题文档”或“新文档”之类的东西。

It's just like-

这就像——

Nan Yu: Yeah, so many untitled folders because the moment you say new folder, it starts saving it, and then you don't actually mean for that to happen.

南宇：是的，有这么多无标题的文件夹，因为当你说新文件夹时，它就开始保存它，然后你实际上并不是故意要发生这种情况。

So, we had those two sorts of variations that we built, and we fell through and where we ended up was a balance between those two.

所以，我们建立了这两种变体，但我们失败了，最终我们找到了两者之间的平衡。

So, what happens is if I'm creating a new issue, like I am here, and I close it out, it'll interrupt me, like we have to interrupt you, otherwise it feels too unsafe.

所以，如果我正在创建一个新问题，就像我在这里一样，然后我将其关闭，它会打断我，就像我们必须打断你一样，否则感觉太不安全了。

So, I can save the draft, I can go to my drafts, and then if I'm in this draft I've already made, and I go in there, and I start to say, "Okay, I'm going to keep working on it," but then I get interrupted again, then I'm just going to auto-save it for you.

所以，我可以保存草稿，我可以转到我的草稿，然后如果我在已经制作的草稿中，我进入那里，我开始说，“好吧，我要继续工作”，但随后我再次被打断，然后我会自动为你保存它。

There's no point.

没有意义。

I'm not going to ask you again.

我不会再问你了。

Nan Yu: I'm always going to auto save it because I'm not going to create a new object.

Nan Yu：我总是会自动保存它，因为我不会创建一个新对象。

I'm just making modifications in place.

我只是在适当的地方进行修改。

So, we made this very specific choice of on a brand new issue, we will interrupt you, and then on an existing draft that you're messing around with, we're just going to auto save everything and someone doing a analysis.

因此，我们在一个全新的问题上做出了这个非常具体的选择，我们会打断您，然后在您正在处理的现有草稿上，我们将自动保存所有内容并有人进行分析。

If they did a detailed teardown of these decisions, they might say like, "Wow, they made very specific choices here," but the path to get there is to do something totally extreme in one direction and then totally extreme in another direction and then find where they really meet up.

如果他们对这些决定进行了详细的拆解，他们可能会说，“哇，他们在这里做出了非常具体的选择”，但到达那里的途径是在一个方向上做一些完全极端的事情，然后在另一个方向上做完全极端的事情，然后找到他们真正相遇的地方。

Lenny Rachitsky: Such a good example, the way that you described it is you went like here's the safest route.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个很好的例子，按照你的描述，你走的是最安全的路线。

Here's the fastest version.

这是最快的版本。

Where did you come up with these list of options?

您从哪里想到这些选项列表？

And for folks that are trying to do this for their company, are these like...

对于那些试图为自己的公司做到这一点的人来说，这些是不是……

Because these are Linear principles, we're going to be very fast.

因为这些是线性原理，所以我们会非常快。

Is this the way you think most companies should operate these sorts of attributes?

您认为大多数公司应该以这种方式运作这些属性吗？

Do you think it's specific to what makes their product different?

您认为他们的产品与众不同的具体原因是什么？

How do you think about that?

您对此有何看法？

Nan Yu: I think for a lot of companies, you have to ask, "What is the promise that your product or your business is making people?" It might be you always have a car available if you need it, and if you do that, then maybe we're going to have to implement search pricing to make that happen.

南宇：我认为对于很多公司来说，你必须问：“你的产品或你的业务对人们的承诺是什么？”如果您需要的话，您可能总是有可用的汽车，如果您这样做，那么也许我们将不得不实施搜索定价来实现这一目标。

It's always going to be available.

它总是可用的。

So, here's the trade-off that we have to make.

所以，这是我们必须做出的权衡。

It's a very extreme point of view to do that.

这样做是一个非常极端的观点。

Or you might say the price is always predictable, but sometimes you can't have a car in the first place.

或者你可能会说价格总是可以预测的，但有时你一开始就无法拥有一辆车。

Those are all choices that you get to make, and you have to sort decide, like where in that spectrum does it make sense based on the promise of your company?

这些都是你必须做出的选择，你必须做出排序决定，比如根据你公司的承诺，在这个范围内什么是有意义的？

Lenny Rachitsky: A lot of people talk about this idea of working backwards.

Lenny Rachitsky：很多人都在谈论逆向工作的想法。

Brian Chesky in Airbnb has a big concept of working backwards from the ideal.

Airbnb 的布莱恩·切斯基 (Brian Chesky) 有一个从理想倒退的大理念。

Let's design the best possible scenario and work backwards.

让我们设计最好的可能场景并逆向工作。

I love that this is even more tactical, which is just pick the extreme version of very specific attributes.

我喜欢这更具战术性，它只是选择非常具体属性的极端版本​​。

Probably not that ideal, but it'll give us insight into a version of the ideal and an element that works well and then what doesn't.

也许不是那么理想，但它会让我们深入了解理想的版本和有效的元素，以及无效的元素。

Yeah, exactly.

是的，完全正确。

I did this a lot actually at Airbnb, just like testing the extreme.

事实上，我在 Airbnb 就做过很多次这样的事情，就像测试极限一样。

So, it super resonates, this idea, and when you say test, so was it like you build it and play with it?

所以，这个想法引起了极大的共鸣，当你说测试时，你是不是构建了它并使用它？

Do you roll it out to some of these circles of users or is it often just internal, and then you learn and then iterate?

您是否将其推广到某些用户圈子，或者通常只是在内部进行，然后您学习并迭代？

Nan Yu: Yeah, we rolled out some of these versions to people.

南宇：是的，我们向人们推出了其中一些版本。

Nan Yu: So, the super-fast version that was unsafe, that only went interna, and everyone felt it was too unsafe, but then we thought, "Okay, let's go to the super-safe version," and then we rolled that out and everyone started having a whole bunch of...

南宇：所以，超快版本是不安全的，只进入内部，每个人都觉得它太不安全，但后来我们想，“好吧，让我们去超级安全版本，”然后我们推出了它，每个人都开始有一大堆......

Like how many drafts are people making?

比如人们做了多少草稿？

I'm like, "This is too many." The people are leaving behind this crazy paper trail.

我想，“这太多了。”人们留下了这些疯狂的书面记录。

Okay, we got to figure out some difference here.

好吧，我们必须找出一些差异。

Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

So, this very much connects to your first point of get things out really quick, and in this case, it's like extreme versions.

因此，这与您快速解决问题的第一点密切相关，在这种情况下，它就像极端版本。

You're probably not going to work long term, but it will teach you.

你可能不会长期工作，但它会教会你。

Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

Okay, and seeing it in action, I'm like, "Okay, obviously, this is the solution," and that's how the way this should feel, and to your point, it was not an obvious solution when you started thinking about it.

好吧，看到它的实际应用，我想，“好吧，显然，这就是解决方案”，这就是感觉应该如何，就您而言，当您开始考虑它时，这并不是一个明显的解决方案。

Nan Yu: Yeah.

南宇：是的。

I mean, the best solutions are always obvious in hindsight, and it's just like you have to develop a process internally that to eventually find your way there.

我的意思是，事后看来，最好的解决方案总是显而易见的，就像你必须在内部开发一个流程，最终找到解决办法一样。

Lenny Rachitsky: Something else that you've mentioned when we were chatting that connects to some of the things we've been talking about is you have this perspective that B2B software isn't just solving people's problems, it's also teaching them how to work, and it's this accumulation of information.

Lenny Rachitsky：您在我们聊天时提到的与我们一直在谈论的一些事情相关的另一件事是，您认为 B2B 软件不仅能解决人们的问题，还能教他们如何工作，而且是信息的积累。

Can you talk about that?

你能谈谈吗？

Because I thought that was really fascinating.

因为我认为这真的很有趣。

Nan Yu: If you think about how a lot of B2B software gets created, it's because there was some person in the middle of some giant company who implemented some kind of process, and they're like, "Wow, this process is really working for us.

Nan Yu：如果你想想很多 B2B 软件是如何创建的，那是因为某个大公司的中间有人实施了某种流程，他们会说：“哇，这个流程真的对我们有用。

Maybe we should make it easier," and they build a little tool internally and then all of their colleagues can now press on buttons and good things happen, and then they turn that process and that tool.

也许我们应该让事情变得更容易，”他们在内部构建了一个小工具，然后所有同事现在都可以按下按钮，好事就会发生，然后他们转变该流程和该工具。

They spin it off into a startup, and they make a startup.

他们把它分拆成一家初创公司，然后他们就创办了一家初创公司。

This process repeats thousands of times.

这个过程重复数千次。

So, when you adopt that tool, you're not just adopting the actual software, you're adopting the idea that this is a practice that you ought to be doing in the first place.

因此，当您采用该工具时，您不仅仅是采用实际的软件，您还采用了这样的想法：这是您应该首先进行的实践。

So, if you're a marketing person, and you adopt some marketing software, you're not just saying, "Okay, now, I can write emails and send them to people."

因此，如果您是一名营销人员，并且采用了一些营销软件，那么您不仅仅是说：“好吧，现在，我可以编写电子邮件并将其发送给人们。”

Nan Yu: There's all sorts of process around that.

南宇：围绕这个有各种各样的过程。

You're organizing stuff into campaigns.

您正在将内容组织到活动中。

You're measuring click-through rates.

您正在衡量点击率。

You're calculating cost of acquisition and all that stuff probably comes equipped with a tool because those are the right practices to do when you're doing this sort of marketing exercise.

您正在计算获取成本，所有这些东西可能都配备了一个工具，因为当您进行此类营销活动时，这些是正确的做法。

And whether you knew about it before or you learned it from the tool, like as a buyer for this kind of product, what I'm doing is I'm saying like, "Hey, I'm going to bring in this baseline level of marketing competency into my organization, that this is the worst we can do is whatever the tool defaults are."

无论您之前了解这一点还是从该工具中学到的，就像作为此类产品的买家一样，我所做的就是说，“嘿，我将把这种营销能力的基线水平引入我的组织，无论工具默认值是什么，这是我们能做的最糟糕的事情。”

Lenny Rachitsky: Interesting.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：有趣。

So, you're basically buying into a way of working when you're adopting a piece of software, not just have this problem I need solved.

因此，当您采用一款软件时，您基本上是在接受一种工作方式，而不仅仅是解决我需要解决的问题。

Nan Yu: Yeah, exactly, and I think the most salient example of this is if you've ever seen like a company adopt an ERP product, it's the most painful thing you can imagine.

南宇：是的，确实如此，我认为最突出的例子是，如果你见过一家公司采用 ERP 产品，这是你能想象到的最痛苦的事情。

It's doing deep surgery.

正在做深层手术。

They have to redo all of their internal processes and the way they manage inventory and all this kind of stuff, but they're willing to do it because they know that this is a battle-tested way of making sure that you're actually doing good management of resources.

他们必须重做所有内部流程以及管理库存和所有此类内容的方式，但他们愿意这样做，因为他们知道这是一种经过实战检验的方法，可以确保你实际上对资源进行了良好的管理。

So, they're like, "We're growing up now.

所以，他们会说，“我们现在长大了。

It's time for us to adopt these best practices.

现在是我们采用这些最佳实践的时候了。

In order to do that, we have to adopt this tool, and we will conform to whatever the tool is best is to do."

为了做到这一点，我们必须采用这个工具，并且我们将遵循该工具最适合做的任何事情。”

Lenny Rachitsky: This connects to a couple things I know about Linear, one is what you've shared of just avoiding these customizations requests from people.

Lenny Rachitsky：这与我对 Linear 的了解有关，其中之一就是您所分享的关于避免人们提出这些定制请求的内容。

Do you have a very opinionated way of here's how you should operate in order to build a great functioning product, org, and company in general?

为了构建一个功能强大的产品、组织和公司，您是否有一种非常固执己见的运作方式？

I'm just connecting threads here.

我只是在这里连接线程。

One is like we're going to avoid letting people customize too much because we know they'll have a bad time, and then two is just this idea of we are opinionated about the way you should work in Linear, and it's like you have a Linear method, I think it's called, of just like here's how product team should operate based on everything we've seen be successful.

一是我们将避免让人们进行过多的定制，因为我们知道他们会度过一段糟糕的时光，二是我们对线性工作方式有自己的看法，就像你有一个线性方法，我认为它被称为，就像产品团队应该如何基于我们所看到的成功的一切进行运作一样。

Nan Yu: Yeah.

南宇：是的。

Yeah.

是的。

It's definitely connected in a way, and I think sometimes when people talk about...

它在某种程度上肯定是有联系的，我想有时当人们谈论......

You mentioned like being opinionated, and I think sometimes when people talk about being opinionated, it can feel like they're almost saying like, "Hey, this is arbitrary," like your opinion and my opinion, they're just too opinions, man.

你提到喜欢固执己见，我认为有时当人们谈论固执己见时，感觉就像他们几乎在说，“嘿，这是武断的”，就像你的观点和我的观点一样，他们只是太有观点了，伙计。

Neither is right or wrong.

两者都没有对或错。

What we try to do is find where there's actual consensus amongst a lot of different high performing teams, and then we can take those practices and say like, "Okay, for a team that isn't already practicing this, can we give them a button so that they can start practicing this?"

我们试图做的是找到许多不同的高绩效团队之间存在真正的共识，然后我们可以采取这些实践并说，“好吧，对于尚未实践这一点的团队，我们可以给他们一个按钮，以便他们可以开始实践这一点吗？”

Nan Yu: When we see companies doing a really good job of managing their triage queue, but it's very manual, we're like, "Okay, can we automate this?

Nan Yu：当我们看到公司在管理分类队列方面做得非常好时，但它是非常手动的，我们会想，“好吧，我们可以自动化吗？

And then for this other company that really needs it that they don't know this is what they need, can we just give them a button to activate this?" And now they have the practice within their org, too.

然后，对于另一家真正需要它的公司，他们不知道这就是他们所需要的，我们可以给他们一个按钮来激活它吗？”现在他们的组织内也有这种做法。

Lenny Rachitsky: So, I think the takeaway here is when you choose a tool, recognize it's going to change the way you operate and be thoughtful about is this the way we want to work versus just we just have a problem we want solved?

Lenny Rachitsky：所以，我认为这里的要点是，当您选择一种工具时，认识到它将改变您的操作方式，并考虑这是我们想要的工作方式，还是我们只是想解决一个问题？

Lenny Rachitsky: I want to come back to something, a thread that's come up a couple of times in our chat is the way you collaborate internally.

Lenny Rachitsky：我想回到一些话题，在我们的聊天中多次出现的话题是内部协作的方式。

It feels like there's a pretty unique way.

感觉有一种很独特的方式。

You said you were on all the sales calls.

你说过你参加了所有的销售拜访。

Is there anything that you can share about how you collaborate internally, how the different functions collaborate that may be unlike how other companies operate that might be helpful for them to learn from?

关于您如何内部协作、不同职能部门如何协作（可能与其他公司的运作方式不同），您是否可以分享一些可能有助于他们学习的内容？

Nan Yu: Yes.

南宇：是的。

Something that's worked really, really well for us is we think of product management as partially like a go-to-market discipline in the same way that sales and marketing are, right?

对我们来说非常非常有效的一点是，我们认为产品管理部分类似于进入市场的纪律，就像销售和营销一样，对吗？

When you talk to people and like, "Hey, tell me how product management works in your company," they'll probably say something about like, "Well, there's engineering product and design.

当你和人们交谈时，“嘿，告诉我产品管理在你们公司是如何运作的”，他们可能会说，“嗯，有工程产品和设计。

They work in this triad, and here's how they interact and collaborate," and we all understand why that's useful, why that's helpful, but this other form of collaboration between product management, sales and marketing, I think it's something that's probably really underexamined and often I feel like in organizations, you actually see some antagonism between product and sales and marketing, and I think that's a shame because when we come together, the way we think about the way that we think about selling is a matter of like...

他们在这个三合一中工作，这就是他们如何互动和协作，”我们都明白为什么这是有用的，为什么这是有帮助的，但是产品管理、销售和营销之间的另一种形式的协作，我认为这可能真的没有得到充分审查，我经常觉得在组织中，你实际上看到产品、销售和营销之间存在一些对立，我认为这是一种耻辱，因为当我们走到一起时，我们思考销售方式的方式是一个问题像...

especially because we sell to very expert practitioners, and they have a very sensitive BS detector.

特别是因为我们向非常专业的从业者销售产品，他们拥有非常灵敏的 BS 探测器。

Nan Yu: So, a big part of what we try to do is we try to help our marketing team pick exactly the right word and the right phrasing to make us sound native to the language that our customers speak and also-

Nan Yu：所以，我们尝试做的一个重要部分是帮助我们的营销团队选择正确的单词和正确的措辞，让我们听起来像客户所说的语言一样，而且——

Lenny Rachitsky: You're talking about engineers is my sense, right?

Lenny Rachitsky：你所说的工程师是我的感觉，对吗？

Nan Yu: Yeah.

南宇：是的。

Engineers is a big one, but even product managers, right?

工程师是一大类，但产品经理也是一大类吧？

Nan Yu: Like product managers know when...

南宇：就像产品经理知道什么时候......

They know what the job is like.

他们知道这份工作是什么样的。

So, when you come in, you say the wrong words, people give you stink eye.

所以，当你进来的时候，你说错话，人们就会给你臭眼。

Lenny Rachitsky: Don't call them project managers.

Lenny Rachitsky：不要称他们为项目经理。

Nan Yu: Yeah, exactly, for example.

南宇：是的，就是这样。

So, I think that's a big part of what we have to do.

所以，我认为这是我们必须做的事情的一个重要部分。

So, on our PM team, we actually have a full-time product marketer, and her job is to...

所以，在我们的 PM 团队中，我们实际上有一名全职产品营销人员，她的工作是……

Tactically, it's like all the change logs come from her, all the release notes, and also she's always crafting the language for whatever upcoming release that we're building and working directly with the teams and trying to figure out how to talk about it, and then once we go out and build the campaigns, build assets and things like that, that's where a lot of the language is coming from.

从战术上讲，就像所有的变更日志、所有的发行说明都来自她，而且她总是为我们正在构建的任何即将发布的版本编写语言，并直接与团队合作，并试图弄清楚如何谈论它，然后一旦我们出去构建活动、构建资产和类似的东西，这就是很多语言的来源。

It's coming from the work that she's doing and then with sales, they're validating all that message in the field.

它来自她正在做的工作，然后通过销售，他们正在现场验证所有这些信息。

They're saying the words to customers directly and telling you if it's sticking or not, and then you can have a really good feedback cycle between those three disciplines.

他们直接向客户说出这些话，并告诉您是否坚持，然后您可以在这三个学科之间建立一个非常好的反馈循环。

Lenny Rachitsky: What I've seen you refer to this way of working as is a double triangle, which is I think a complement to the PM, engineer, designer.

Lenny Rachitsky：我看到您将这种工作方式称为双三角形，我认为这是对 PM、工程师、设计师的补充。

Talk about that and give us a visual of what that looks like.

谈谈这个并给我们一个视觉效果。

Nan Yu: Yeah, I think PMs, like product managers, we often have a tough time trying to explain like, "What is your job?" It's a little bit of everything.

南宇：是的，我认为产品经理和产品经理一样，我们经常很难解释“你的工作是什么？”之类的问题。一切都只是一点点。

I think the job that I do that we see it as is you're taking the building side of the organization and the selling side of the organization and bringing it together.

我认为我所做的工作就是将组织的建设方和组织的销售方整合在一起。

You're taking all of the commercial motivations and goals of the company and making sure that what you build actually solves for those goals, and you're tempering that with what's possible and where the opportunities are to actually build stuff.

你要考虑公司的所有商业动机和目标，并确保你构建的东西能够真正解决这些目标，并且你要通过可能的情况和实际构建东西的机会来调整这一点。

So, to me, it's the PM in the middle, and then you have engineering, product design, and then sales, marketing, product management on the other side.

所以，对我来说，中间是产品经理，然后是工程、产品设计，然后是另一边的销售、营销、产品管理。

Lenny Rachitsky: ...

莱尼·拉奇茨基：……

but I think that's true from the perspective of PM, and I love this visual of just the PM is connecting the builders to the sellers, and you're involved in both worlds.

但我认为从 PM 的角度来看这是正确的，我喜欢这种视觉效果：PM 将建筑商与卖家联系起来，而你则参与了这两个世界。

This connects very directly to Brian Chesky's whole thing about how PMs should be doing marketing.

这与布莱恩·切斯基（Brian Chesky）关于产品经理应该如何进行营销的整个观点有非常直接的联系。

So, the way they changed it, every PM is also PMM, and there's no more...

所以，他们改变了它的方式，每个 PM 也是 PMM，并且不再有......

They're product marketers now.

他们现在是产品营销人员。

That's their title and that's like the extreme version of what you're describing.

这就是他们的标题，这就像你所描述的极端版本​​。

Nan Yu: Yeah.

南宇：是的。

Yeah, and I think Apple's been doing that way for forever, too.

是的，我认为苹果公司也一直这样做。

Lenny Rachitsky: Got it.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：明白了。

So, the advice here is if you're a PM at a B2B business, lean into the sales and marketing side of it, lean into the go-to-market.

因此，这里的建议是，如果您是 B2B 企业的产品经理，请专注于销售和营销方面，专注于进入市场。

Nan Yu: Yeah, and in fact, if you're leaving something on the table in terms of the kind of impact that you are having at your job, that's probably the thing that you're leaving on the table.

南宇：是的，事实上，如果你在工作中留下了一些影响力的东西，那么这可能就是你要留下的东西。

You're probably already doing a good job of collaborating with engineering and design.

您可能已经在工程和设计方面做得很好。

It's probably the sort of sell side that there's an opportunity for you to have more impact.

这可能是一种卖方，你有机会发挥更大的影响力。

Lenny Rachitsky: Just to make it even more concrete for PMs that are like, "Okay, I want to do this.

Lenny Rachitsky：只是为了让 PM 更加具体，“好吧，我想这样做。

I want to do what Linear's doing.

我想做 Linear 正在做的事情。

I'm going to get more salesy." What does it look like when someone is more is in this double triangle working more closely with sales?

我会变得更有销售能力。”当有人在这个双三角中与销售更密切地合作时，会是什么样子？

You talked about being on sales calls.

您谈到了参加销售拜访。

What else there can you share of just like, "Here, try these things"?

您还能分享什么，比如“在这里，尝试这些东西”？

Nan Yu: I think originate the message that you send to your audience.

南宇：我认为你要传达给观众的信息是由你自己创造的。

There's a lot of things that marketing does, which you are never going to necessarily touch.

营销做了很多事情，但你永远不会接触到。

There's always demand gen and figuring out channel strategy and all this kind of stuff, like sure.

当然，总会有需求产生和制定渠道策略之类的事情。

That's a peer marketing concern, but actually picking the words and where the emphasis is, like you should understand the customer at a pretty deep level, probably deeper than any other group at the company because of the kinds of requirements gathering, discovery that you're doing.

这是一个同行营销问题，但实际上是在选择词语和重点，就像你应该在相当深的层面上了解客户，可能比公司的任何其他团队都更深，因为你正在做的需求收集和发现的种类。

So, you're going to know the native language that your customers speak a lot better and help your marketing team originate those words.

因此，您将更好地了解客户所说的母语，并帮助您的营销团队创作这些单词。

Lenny Rachitsky: Got it.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：明白了。

So, basically be really involved in the product marketing, the writing, the emails, the headlines, the website?

那么，基本上是真正参与产品营销、写作、电子邮件、头条新闻、网站吗？

Nan Yu: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

南宇：对对对，就是这样。

I know the word product marketing is also so overloaded.

我知道产品营销这个词也太泛滥了。

They do so many different things, but it's that sort of content creation piece that you really have an opportunity to contributes to.

他们做了很多不同的事情，但你真正有机会为这种内容创作做出贡献。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, I love how concrete that is.

Lenny Rachitsky：是的，我喜欢它的具体性。

It's like don't think about this concept, product marketing.

就像不要考虑产品营销这个概念。

Just think about the words that your potential customers and customers see.

只要想想你的潜在客户和客户看到的文字即可。

Okay, final area I want to spend a lot of time on is totally different.

好吧，我想花很多时间的最后一个领域是完全不同的。

It's around getting a job.

这是关于找工作。

Lenny Rachitsky: You have a pretty unique approach to finding a gig.

Lenny Rachitsky：你有一种非常独特的寻找工作的方法。

I heard from the founder of Mode about the very unique way you approached getting a job there.

我从 Mode 的创始人那里听说了你在那里找到工作的独特方式。

I imagine Linear is a similar boat.

我想 Linear 也是一艘类似的船。

What advice can you share with folks that are looking for a job, maybe struggling, that work for you when you were looking for your next gig?

您可以与那些正在寻找工作（可能正在苦苦挣扎）的人分享哪些建议，这些建议在您寻找下一份工作时对您有用？

Nan Yu: Project management is a unique role.

南宇：项目管理是一个独特的角色。

Because we do just about everything, you don't really get pigeonholed into being compared along a single dimension with everyone else, and everyone who's hiring PMs, just like when they're hiring execs, they're hoping that they bring them on to solve some burning problem that they have.

因为我们几乎做所有事情，所以你不会真正被归类为与其他人进行单一维度的比较，每个招聘产品经理的人，就像他们招聘高管时一样，他们希望他们能解决一些紧迫的问题。

So, it's your job when you're in the interview process to figure out what that burning problem is.

因此，当你在面试过程中找出最紧迫的问题是什么时，这就是你的工作。

So, put on your discovery hat and go figure out what is the actual job to be done of the hiring manager when they're bringing on a new PM onto their team?

那么，戴上你的探索帽，去弄清楚当招聘经理为团队引入新的 PM 时，他们的实际工作是什么？

And if you can do that and then make a good case that you are the person to solve that problem, then hiring you becomes a binary choice between do I hire the solution to my problem or do I hire someone else?

如果你能做到这一点，然后充分证明你是解决该问题的人，那么雇用你就变成了一个二元选择：我是雇用问题的解决方案还是雇用其他人？

Nan Yu: And I think what ends up happening a lot is when you're in a interview process, you're just trying to put your best foot forward, trying to say that you're great at everything.

南宇：我认为最终发生的事情是，当你在面试过程中时，你只是试图展现出自己最好的一面，试图说你在所有方面都很出色。

You have very few weaknesses.

你的弱点很少。

Maybe you tried too hard, like whatever, but everyone's going to say that.

也许你太努力了，不管怎样，但每个人都会这么说。

So, you're just one of end people, and you want to make yourself a little bit of just you versus the field.

所以，你只是终端人中的一员，你想让自己在与现场的对抗中变得更加独特。

You're the solution to a problem and then everyone else is like a roll of the dice.

你是问题的解决方案，然后其他人就像掷骰子一样。

Lenny Rachitsky: So, the way you're describing it is the company has a job to be done, say it's drive growth of some feature.

Lenny Rachitsky：所以，按照你的描述，公司有一项工作要做，比如推动某些功能的增长。

In this case, it's like for Linear, just build a killer or successful B2B product.

在这种情况下，就像 Linear 一样，只需构建一个杀手级或成功的 B2B 产品即可。

I don't know.

我不知道。

That's a broad one.

这是一个广泛的。

Usually, you're not interviewing for head of product role, so that's maybe too broad.

通常，您面试的不是产品负责人的职位，所以这个范围可能太宽泛了。

So, it's like what is this PM role's job to be done at the company and then help convince them you are the best person to do that job and solve this problem for them.

因此，这就像这个 PM 角色在公司要完成的工作是什么，然后帮助说服他们你是完成这项工作并为他们解决这个问题的最佳人选。

Nan Yu: Yeah, and a lot of times when you take that approach, it'll feel like you already work there, and the way that I did this, like I got advice from a friend.

南宇：是的，很多时候当你采取这种方法时，会感觉你已经在那里工作了，而我这样做的方式，就像我从朋友那里得到了建议。

He said like, "I was interviewing for this job at Mode that you referenced." I'm like, "How should I approach it?" He's like, "Just act like you already worked there.

他说，“我正在面试你提到的 Mode 的这份工作。”我想，“我应该如何处理它？”他说，“就像你已经在那里工作过一样。

What would you do?" And then it's like, "Okay, I could do that." So, then when you're in this interview process and someone's asking you questions.

你会怎么做？”然后就像是，“好吧，我能做到。”所以，当你在面试过程中有人问你问题时。

He goes, "Do you have any questions for me?" You can ask them like, "What are your OKRs this quarter?

他说：“你有什么问题要问我吗？”您可以这样问他们：“本季度您的 OKR 是多少？

How can someone help you achieve those?" You can be that specific about it, and they're like, "Oh, yeah, sure.

有人如何帮助你实现这些目标？”你可以说得很具体，他们会说，“哦，是的，当然。

I can tell you about the exact thing that I'm doing this quarter, and then you'll have some level of intelligence about what people are actually trying to solve because I think often we just get stuck in these very high level general types of questions like, "What's the company goals sand all that kind of stuff, and it's like, no, you can get really specific.

我可以告诉你我本季度正在做的具体事情，然后你就会对人们实际上想要解决的问题有一定程度的了解，因为我认为我们经常陷入这些非常高层次的一般类型的问题，例如“公司的目标是什么以及所有此类问题，就像，不，你可以非常具体。

If you were collaborating with that person in your job, what would you say to them?

如果你在工作中与那个人合作，你会对他们说什么？

Lenny Rachitsky: I love how actionable this advice is.

Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢这个建议的可行性。

There's obviously an element of this takes work and time.

显然，这需要工作和时间。

A lot of people are interviewing at a lot of companies, trying to find a job, is part of your advice.

很多人正在很多公司面试，试图找到工作，这是你的建议的一部分。

Pick the ones you're most excited about and invest a lot of time in this way of interviewing.

选择你最感兴趣的人，并在这种采访方式上投入大量时间。

Nan Yu: You can invest a lot in the ones where you know that you're going to be able to over deliver on.

南宇：你可以在那些你知道能够超额交付的项目上投入大量资金。

If you understand what they're actually trying to solve, then you know where you're going to have both the highest chance of success of getting hired, but also doing a really great job on the other end of it.

如果你了解他们真正想要解决的问题，那么你就知道你在哪里既能获得最大的成功被录用的机会，又能在另一端做得非常出色。

Lenny Rachitsky: And you talk about how you're like pretending you have the job, pretending you actually have this job as part of the interview process.

Lenny Rachitsky：你谈到了你如何假装你拥有这份工作，假装你真的拥有这份工作，作为面试过程的一部分。

Oftentimes, as an outsider, you don't have enough information to have a really good thought on what the solution is, and maybe part of it is going to be so wrong because you're like, "I don't actually know.

通常，作为一个局外人，你没有足够的信息来真正思考解决方案是什么，也许其中一部分会是错误的，因为你会说，“我实际上不知道。

I don't have the data." Do you actually try to reach out to the engineers and designers on the team to try to understand things?

我没有数据。”您是否真的尝试联系团队中的工程师和设计师来尝试了解事情？

How far do you go to try to solve these problems and show them what you can do?

您会在多大程度上尝试解决这些问题并向他们展示您可以做什么？

Nan Yu: Yeah, I mean, you're in the interview loop.

南宇：是的，我的意思是，你正在接受采访。

These are people that you're going to be working closely with.

这些人是你将与之密切合作的人。

So, start there.

那么，就从这里开始吧。

Do your discovery questions, and if there's an area that you think you want to dig, you can ask.

做你的发现问题，如果有你认为你想挖掘的领域，你可以提问。

There's no harm asking, "Hey, can you put me in touch with an engineering manager who's working on the same problem?" And if no one else is asking, again, you're going to have an extra piece of feedback from that eng manager.

询问“嘿，你能给我联系一位正在解决同样问题的工程经理吗？”，这没有什么坏处。如果没有其他人再次询问，您将从那位工程经理那里得到额外的反馈。

So, yeah, like this guy asks really good questions, and it seems like they're really with it.

所以，是的，就像这个人问了非常好的问题，而且看起来他们真的很喜欢。

No one else is going to have that piece of feedback.

其他人不会得到这样的反馈。

So, during the debrief process.

所以，在汇报过程中。

Lenny Rachitsky: And just asking that question alone will show them how deeply you're thinking about this already?

Lenny Rachitsky：仅仅问这个问题就能让他们知道你对这个问题的思考有多深？

Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

Nan, is there anything else that we have not covered that you want to touch on or share or you think might be helpful to listeners before we get to a very exciting lightning round?

南，在我们进行一场非常激动人心的闪电回合之前，还有什么我们没有提到的，您想谈谈或分享的，或者您认为可能对听众有帮助的事情吗？

Nan Yu: I have a very specific point of view on deadlines.

南宇：我对截止日期有一个非常具体的看法。

I don't know if that's you care.

我不知道你是否关心这个。

Nan Yu: I think what often happens is people get depressed about deadlines.

南宇：我认为人们经常因为最后期限而感到沮丧。

It's like, "Hey, here's the ship date," and then you never make it.

就像，“嘿，这是发货日期”，然后你就永远无法到达。

I don't know if you've had this feeling before.

不知道你以前是否有过这样的感觉。

Lenny Rachitsky: Absolutely, with some deadlines.

Lenny Rachitsky：当然可以，但有一些截止日期。

Nan Yu: You were an engineer before too, right?

南宇：你以前也当过工程师吧？

So, it's just like engineers is basically like, "Oh, yeah.

所以，就像工程师基本上会说，“哦，是的。

Yeah, deadlines, they're complete fabrications," and the only way to make deadlines real is to take them so seriously that they are basically like a P0 problem, and everything else has to not matter in comparison to the deadline because that's the only way you're going to be able to signal to the team and also to all the stakeholders that you're actually taking it seriously.

是的，截止日期，它们完全是捏造的。”而让截止日期变得真实的唯一方法就是认真对待它们，以至于它们基本上就像一个 P0 问题，与截止日期相比，其他一切都无关紧要，因为这是你能够向团队和所有利益相关者发出信号的唯一方式，表明你实际上正在认真对待它。

So, my feeling on deadlines is don't have too many of them, and when you do, it's a P0.

所以，我对截止日期的感觉是不要有太多的截止日期，当你有太多的截止日期时，它就是 P0。

So, the engineer is working on it.

所以，工程师正在研究这个问题。

They don't get to work on anything else.

他们没有时间去做其他事情。

Nan Yu: It's like, "Oh, I need them for this," like nope.

南宇：这就像是，“哦，我需要它们来做这个”，就像不一样。

Nope.

没有。

You're not pulling them off of anything.

你没有把他们从任何事情上拉下来。

We're doing this.

我们正在做这个。

As a PM, your job is to just cut as much scope as possible to make it possible to hit that deadline.

作为产品经理，你的工作就是尽可能缩小范围，以便能够在截止日期前完成任务。

Like what are the things actually blocking us from doing it?

比如，到底是什么因素阻碍了我们这样做？

Because what you want to do is at the moment where you have to make the go, no-go call on whether to ship, you want to be able to actually have a product that you can say yes to.

因为你想做的是，在必须决定是否发货的时刻，你希望能够真正拥有一款你可以说“是”的产品。

It might not have all the features you had wanted or whatever, and you can say no. You can make that choice, but you want to set yourself up to be in a position where you can actually say yes or no to something, because what often happens is like we want this thing.

它可能没有您想要的所有功能或其他功能，您可以说不。你可以做出这样的选择，但你想让自己处于一个可以真正对某件事说“是”或“否”的位置，因为经常发生的事情就像我们想要这件事一样。

Well, it's not even close to being done yet, so there's no possible way we can say yes.

好吧，它还没有接近完成，所以我们不可能说“是”。

I can't ship it.

我无法运送它。

It's half broken.

已经坏了一半了

It's like, "No, no, no. You want to get to a point where it works.

就像，“不，不，不。你想要达到一个有效的地步。

It might not be the product that you want, but it is an actual real product that you can conceivably ship."

它可能不是您想要的产品，但它是您可以发货的真实产品。”

Lenny Rachitsky: So, you said that don't have too many deadlines, but when you do, make sure you...

Lenny Rachitsky：所以，你说过不要有太多的截止日期，但是当你这样做时，请确保你......

Everyone understands these are actual deadlines.

每个人都明白这些是实际的最后期限。

When do you decide it's worth having a deadline?

您什么时候认为值得设定最后期限？

Is it like a marketing launch sort of thing?

这就像营销发布之类的事情吗？

What's worthy of a deadline in your experience?

根据您的经验，什么是值得设定截止日期的？

Nan Yu: Yeah, it's usually having to do with some kind of external marketing type of exercise that you're try to hit.

南宇：是的，这通常与您尝试进行的某种外部营销类型的练习有关。

Nan Yu: And I think that that's the other thing that I think.

南宇：我认为这是我的另一件事。

As builders, we can often look at launch dates and stuff like that.

作为构建者，我们经常可以查看发布日期之类的东西。

It's like, "Oh, who cares if it's a little bit later or we skip this change log," or whatever it is, and I think that that's really a...

就像，“哦，谁在乎是晚一点还是我们跳过这个更改日志，”或者无论它是什么，我认为这真的是......

I don't know.

我不知道。

It makes me go crazy when I hear people say that in all honesty.

当我听到人们诚实地这么说时，我简直要发疯了。

With marketing and communication with customers, you basically have a limited amount of opportunities to do so.

通过营销和与客户的沟通，基本上你这样做的机会是有限的。

A year is 365 days.

一年有365天。

There are 12 months.

有12个月。

Each of those months has about four weeks.

每个月大约有四个星期。

There's some rhythm where you get to have 50-ish weeks to say something to your audience once a week, or you get to have 12 months to say something really big or four quarters to say something huge.

有一定的节奏，你每周有 50 周左右的时间向你的听众说一些事情，或者你有 12 个月的时间说一些非常重要的事情，或者有四个季度的时间说一些重大的事情。

If you miss one of those opportunities, you don't get it back again.

如果你错过了其中一个机会，你就不会再得到它。

You can't time travel back and say like, "Okay, actually, let's redo first quarter and say this message that we wish we could have gotten into the field."

你不能回到过去并说：“好吧，实际上，让我们重做第一季度并说出我们希望我们能够进入该领域的信息。”

Lenny Rachitsky: That is such a powerful point.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个非常有力的观点。

I could see the sales marketing, go-to-market element of your job coming out there.

我可以看到你工作中的销售营销、进入市场等要素。

I imagine everyone that's in that field's like, "Yes, this is exactly right." Maybe just the last question along this line.

我想这个领域的每个人都会说：“是的，这完全正确。”也许只是这条线上的最后一个问题。

So, I love this idea of taking deadlines very seriously when you commit to a deadline.

所以，我喜欢这个想法：当你承诺遵守最后期限时，要非常认真地对待最后期限。

At the same time, as you pointed out, it creates a lot of stress knowing there's a deadline we have to hit.

与此同时，正如您所指出的，知道我们必须在截止日期前完成会产生很大的压力。

So, one lever you've mentioned is cutting scope.

所以，你提到的一个杠杆就是缩小范围。

Another is just people spending more time estimating to have more accurate deadlines.

另一个原因是人们花更多的时间来估计更准确的截止日期。

You invest in that.

你对此进行投资。

How do you think about just for an engineering team to come into a deadline, how much to spend on de-risking and estimating versus just, "Let's just do our best and then we'll cut and adjust"?

您如何看待工程团队在截止日期前需要花多少钱来降低风险和进行估算，而不是仅仅“让我们尽力而为，然后进行削减和调整”？

Nan Yu: This might be my hot take, but we do almost no estimating in order to hit deadlines.

南宇：这可能是我的热门观点，但我们几乎没有为了按时完成任务而进行任何估计。

What we do is we ship as early as we can.

我们所做的就是尽早发货。

The thing we talked about earlier where if by the time that 10% of the time has elapsed, you have a working thing, you can now spend the rest of the time deciding whether or not you want to do another iteration or you want to polish that thing and get it to be a shippable state.

我们之前谈到的事情是，如果 10% 的时间过去了，你已经有了一个可以工作的东西，那么你现在可以用剩下的时间来决定是否要进行另一次迭代，或者你想要完善该东西并使其成为可交付状态。

So, you're setting up your future self to be able to make that decision.

所以，你正在为未来的自己做好准备，以便能够做出这个决定。

So, none of this is...

所以，这一切都不是...

You can't go into this at the very last moment and say like, "Okay, now, we have to take the deadline seriously." You have to do it from the beginning and commit to the process of going very fast, iterating early, and then putting yourself in a position where you can say yes or no to a product.

你不能在最后一刻才说：“好吧，现在，我们必须认真对待最后期限。”你必须从一开始就这样做，并致力于快速推进、尽早迭代的过程，然后让自己处于可以对产品说“是”或“否”的位置。

Lenny Rachitsky: So interesting and so different from the way most companies operate.

Lenny Rachitsky：非常有趣，而且与大多数公司的运营方式非常不同。

Nan, this was everything I was hoping it'd be.

南，这就是我所希望的一切。

I think this is going to help a lot of people build much better product, which would be good for the world if more products are like Linear.

我认为这将帮助很多人构建更好的产品，如果有更多像 Linear 这样的产品，这将对世界有利。

With that, we reached our very exciting lightning round.

就这样，我们进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。

Are you ready?

你准备好了吗？

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, let's do it.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的，我们开始吧。

Okay, first question.

好的，第一个问题。

What are two or three books that you have recommended most to other people?

您向其他人推荐最多的两三本书是什么？

Nan Yu: I think the one book that I recommend the most is The Design of Everyday Things by Don Norman.

南宇：我觉得我最推荐的一本书是Don Norman的《日常事物的设计》。

I read it originally in college for an HCI class I was taking, and I think of everything I've ever read, it's the thing that caused me to see the world from the perspective of everything you interact with as a product.

我最初是在大学里参加人机交互课程时读到这本书的，我想到了我读过的所有内容，它让我从与产品交互的所有事物的角度来看待世界。

Every pencil that you use, every door that you open is a product that somebody designed.

你使用的每一支铅笔，你打开的每一扇门都是某人设计的产品。

Lenny Rachitsky: And is that the big takeaway from that book?

Lenny Rachitsky：这是那本书的最大收获吗？

Because it comes up a lot, and it's such an old book.

因为它出现的次数很多，而且是一本很老的书。

So, I guess for someone that hasn't read or maybe doesn't have time to read, it is the big takeaway for you.

所以，我想对于那些没有读过或者可能没有时间阅读的人来说，这对你来说是一个很大的收获。

Someone designed everything and there's a reason things aren't great, and they can be improved.

一切都是有人设计的，但事情表现不佳是有原因的，而且可以改进。

Nan Yu: Yeah.

南宇：是的。

I mean, I saw this the other day.

我的意思是，我前几天看到了这个。

I was at a café in my neighborhood, and I saw a kid rip a handle off a door, like of the café.

我在附近的一家咖啡馆里，看到一个孩子从咖啡馆的门把手上扯下来。

He pulled it so hard, it came right off because it was a push door, but it had a handle that looked like you could pull it, and that's one of the canonical examples of the book because are just mysteries.

他用力拉门，门就掉下来了，因为它是一扇推门，但它有一个看起来可以拉动的把手，这是这本书的典型例子之一，因为这只是一个谜。

Yeah.

是的。

Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

Next question.

下一个问题。

Do you have a favorite recent movie or TV show you've really enjoyed?

您最近有最喜欢的电影或电视节目吗？

Nan Yu: I watched The Diplomat on Netflix.

南宇：我在 Netflix 上看了《外交官》。

I think it was terrific.

我认为这太棒了。

It's really fun, easy watch.

真的很有趣，很容易观看。

It has some West Wing vibes if you were into that back in the day.

如果你以前喜欢的话，这里有一些西翼的氛围。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, have you seen the second season?

Lenny Rachitsky：是的，你看过第二季吗？

Nan Yu: Yeah, I finished the second season.

南宇：是啊，我看完了第二季。

Yeah.

是的。

Lenny Rachitsky: I wasn't as excited about the second season, just to put that out there.

Lenny Rachitsky：我对第二季并没有那么兴奋，只是把它放在那里。

The first season was really good and then just went off a little like, "Okay.

第一季真的很好，然后就有点像，“好吧。

I guess it's cool," but stuff like that.

我想这很酷，”但是诸如此类的事情。

Nan Yu: Yeah, it got a little like spy thrillery, I think.

南宇：是的，我觉得有点像间谍惊悚片。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, cool, but still really good and on Netflix.

Lenny Rachitsky：好的，很酷，但仍然非常好，而且在 Netflix 上。

Okay, cool.

好吧，酷。

Do you have a favorite product you recently discovered that you really like?

您最近发现有您真正喜欢的最喜欢的产品吗？

Nan Yu: I didn't discover it, but I discovered a version of it that was really interesting.

南宇：我没有发现，但是我发现了一个非常有趣的版本。

There's a pen.

有一支笔。

Actually, I have one on my desk.

事实上，我的桌子上有一个。

It's called the Sakura Micron.

它被称为樱花微米。

I don't know if you use these.

我不知道你是否使用这些。

It's like a felt tip pen.

它就像一支毡尖笔。

It's really great.

真的很棒。

It was originally invented in Japan for artists to draw comic books and stuff, and you can use it for anything.

它最初是在日本发明的，供艺术家绘制漫画书之类的东西，你可以用它来做任何事情。

I use it for journaling or whatever, but I was on Amazon.

我用它来写日记或其他什么，但我在亚马逊上。

I was trying to buy more, and I found a package that said like, "Bible Study Kit." I was like, "Why is this labeled Bible Study Kit?" And it was literally just the pen in four different colors, and it was because the thing doesn't bleed through pages.

我想买更多，结果发现一个包装上写着“圣经学习套件”。我当时想，“为什么这个标签是圣经学习套件？”它实际上只是四种不同颜色的笔，这是因为它不会渗透页面。

So, if you have a Bible, which they often have these really flimsy newsprint pages.

所以，如果你有一本圣经，他们通常会有这些非常脆弱的新闻纸页。

It's not going to bleed through.

它不会流血。

Nan Yu: And it's just really interesting to me that someone marketed a normal package of these pens as a Bible study kit and for people who were looking for that keyword, and it was official, too.

南宇：对我来说真的很有趣的是，有人将这些钢笔的普通包装作为圣经学习套件出售给那些正在寻找该关键词的人，而且这也是官方的。

It was not something hacked together.

这不是拼凑在一起的东西。

It was actually an official packaging of this.

它实际上是这个的官方包装。

Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

What a unique pen choice.

多么独特的笔选择啊。

Two more questions.

还有两个问题。

Do you have a favorite life motto that you often come back to and find useful in work or in life?

您是否有一条最喜欢的人生格言，并且经常回顾并发现它在工作或生活中很有用？

Nan Yu: The correct amount is too much minus one, and I think this ties into the try the extreme version of it of a thing where...

南宇：正确的数量减去一太多了，我认为这与尝试极端版本的事情有关......

I don't know, like a stupid example, like how much pizza do you want to eat?

我不知道，就像一个愚蠢的例子，比如你想吃多少披萨？

It's like, well, five slices was too many.

就好像，五片太多了。

I feel bad.

我心情不好。

Then four was probably the right number, and then if you want to find the right number, sometimes you just have to really shoot for the edge and then find out what's too much, and then you'll find out exactly what the right amount is.

那么四可能是正确的数字，然后如果你想找到正确的数字，有时你只需要真正瞄准边缘，然后找出什么太多了，然后你就会准确地找到正确的数量。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love how tactical that is, makes me think about Elon Musk's thing about cutting things.

Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢这种战术性，让我想起埃隆·马斯克（Elon Musk）关于削减事物的事情。

Like one of his formulas for just getting stuff done, one of them is just cut stuff before trying to optimize it and automate it, and his advice is if you don't bring back 10% of things, you cut, you're not cutting enough.

就像他完成工作的公式之一一样，其中之一就是在尝试优化和自动化之前削减一些东西，他的建议是，如果你不带回 10% 的东西，你就削减了，你削减得还不够。

Lenny Rachitsky: Final question.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：最后一个问题。

You worked at Everlane for a number of years, and you shared the rough idea of a story around a shirt, maybe a bestseller that they have now, and how you helped create a bestselling women's shirt.

您在 Everlane 工作了很多年，您分享了围绕一件衬衫（也许是他们现在的畅销书）的故事的粗略想法，以及您如何帮助创造了一款畅销女式衬衫。

Can you share that story?

你能分享那个故事吗？

Nan Yu: Yeah.

南宇：是的。

So, I mean, to be clear, I witnessed the creation.

所以，我的意思是，要明确的是，我亲眼目睹了创作过程。

I don't think I had a direct hand in it, but yeah.

我不认为我直接参与其中，但是是的。

So, I saw this advertisement the other day on Instagram for...

所以，前几天我在 Instagram 上看到了这个广告……

It's called the Women's Box-Cut Tee, and it's a wide and short for women, and I looked, and it had 20 colors of it, and it sells super well, and I remember when we created this thing, and it was because there was a batch of defective men's t-shirts.

它叫女式方格T恤，是一款女式的宽款短款，我看了一下，它有20种颜色，而且卖得超级好，我记得我们创造这个东西的时候，是因为有一批有缺陷的男式T恤。

They all came in an inch and a half too short.

它们都短了一英寸半。

So, we couldn't sell them.

所以，我们不能卖掉它们。

You would have your belly button sticking out.

你的肚脐会伸出来。

No one wants to wear of that.

没有人愿意穿它。

So, what we did was like, well, we have to salvage the inventory because we were a very small company, and we had to make cash flow, and we couldn't just damage it out.

所以，我们所做的就是，我们必须挽救库存，因为我们是一家非常小的公司，我们必须创造现金流，而我们不能只是破坏它。

Nan Yu: So, the design team and the marketing team came together, and they said, "Okay.

南宇：所以，设计团队和营销团队聚集在一起，他们说：“好吧。

Here's what we're going to do.

这就是我们要做的。

We're going to cut another two inches off of this and make it really cropped and market it towards women as like a cropped boxed-tee silhouette, and we did that.

我们将把它再剪掉两英寸，使其真正剪裁，并将其推销给女性，就像剪裁的盒装 T 恤廓形一样，我们做到了。

We're like, "Okay, hopefully, we can salvage this inventory and not have to take a write-down." It sold out in a week, and we're like, "Oh, okay.

我们就像，“好吧，希望我们可以挽救这些库存，而不必进行减记。”它在一周内就卖完了，我们就像，“哦，好吧。

I guess we just made a hit product," and it's one of these things where it's very hard to know what this was.

我想我们刚刚制作了一款热门产品，”这是很难知道这是什么的事情之一。

Was this a marketing thing?

这是营销活动吗？

Was this a design thing?

这是设计的事情吗？

I don't know, but you just come together, and you find the right product market fit in the weirdest way.

我不知道，但只要你们走到一起，就会以最奇怪的方式找到适合市场的正确产品。

Nan Yu: Yeah, it's still going.

南宇：是啊，还在继续。

Originally, it was just white.

原本，它只是白色的。

Now, there's like 20 colors.

现在，大约有20种颜色。

Lenny Rachitsky: Oh, man.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：哦，伙计。

I love how many industries you have worked in: fashion, data analytics, project management.

我喜欢你曾经工作过的多个行业：时尚、数据分析、项目管理。

I don't know what's next.

我不知道接下来会发生什么。

There's more, I imagine.

我想还有更多。

Nan, this was incredible.

楠，这太不可思议了。

I really appreciate making time for this.

我真的很感激为此抽出时间。

Like I said, I think we're going to have helped a lot of people build better products.

就像我说的，我认为我们将帮助很多人打造更好的产品。

Two final questions, where can folks find you online if they want to reach out and learn more?

最后两个问题，如果人们想联系并了解更多信息，可以在哪里找到您？

And how can listeners be useful to you?

听众如何对你有用？

Nan Yu: Yeah, I'm on X/Twitter as the thenanyu.

Nan Yu：是的，我在 X/Twitter 上是 thenanyu。

It's T-H-E and then my name, and if they have any feedback about Linear, we're very happy to take it, especially for people who use it in their day-to-day.

是 T-H-E，然后是我的名字，如果他们对 Linear 有任何反馈，我们非常乐意接受，特别是对于日常使用它的人来说。

We really want to hear from users.

我们真的很想听听用户的意见。

Lenny Rachitsky: What's the best way for them to share that?

Lenny Rachitsky：他们分享这一点的最佳方式是什么？

Is it tweet at you?

这是对你发推文吗？

Is it go to the website?

是去网站吗？

What do you recommend?

你有什么推荐？

Nan Yu: Oh, yeah.

南宇：噢，是的。

You can tweet at us.

您可以向我们发推文。

You can DM me on Twitter.

你可以在 Twitter 上私信我。

My DMs are open, so it's all good.

我的私信是开放的，所以一切都很好。

Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

Nan, thank you so much for being here.

南，非常感谢你来到这里。

Nan Yu: Yeah, of course.

南宇：是的，当然。

Thanks, Lenny.

谢谢，莱尼。

Bye, everyone.: Thank you so much for listening.

再见，大家：非常感谢您的聆听。

If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.

如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.

您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。