'Storytelling with Nancy Duarte: How to craft compelling presentations and tell a story that sticks'

Nancy Duarte: A lot of people think that the only time you really need to present well is when you have a big stage talk and you make the big investment in the script.

南希·杜阿尔特（Nancy Duarte）：很多人认为，唯一真正需要表现出色的时候是当你进行大型舞台演讲并对剧本进行大量投资时。

The big investment in the contrasting story.

对对比故事的巨大投资。

I'll tell you a dirty little secret.

我会告诉你一个肮脏的小秘密。

I can get my husband to do chores for me on the weekends with a real quick, what is, what could be new bliss.

我可以让我的丈夫在周末为我做家务，这真是一种新的幸福。

So, the ability to just have that contrast as a framework in your brain during a meeting, on a phone call, any moment of influence, like literally it works.

因此，在会议期间、打电话时、任何有影响力的时刻，能够将这种对比作为你大脑中的一个框架，就像字面意义上的那样。

It works in any format.

它适用于任何格式。

Lenny: Welcome to Lenny's Podcast where I interview world class product leaders and growth experts to learn from their hard-won experiences building and growing today's most successful products.

Lenny：欢迎来到 Lenny 的播客，我在其中采访了世界一流的产品领导者和增长专家，学习他们构建和发展当今最成功产品的来之不易的经验。

Today my guest is Nancy Duarte.

今天我的客人是南希·杜阿尔特。

Nancy is the type of guest that I never imagined being able to get on this podcast, but I'm so happy that it happened.

南希是我从未想象过能够参加这个播客的嘉宾，但我很高兴它发生了。

Nancy is a bestselling author, speaker, and CEO of Duarte Incorporated, which has helped create over 250,000 presentations for the world's most influential business leaders, brands and institutions including Apple, TED, Google, the World Bank, and famously Al Gore on his Inconvenient Truth presentation.

南希是畅销书作家、演讲家和杜阿尔特公司的首席执行官，该公司帮助世界上最有影响力的商业领袖、品牌和机构制作了超过 250,000 份演示文稿，其中包括苹果、TED、谷歌、世界银行，以及著名的戈尔的《难以忽视的真相》演讲。

In our conversation, Nancy shares a ton of tactical advice for how to improve your own presentations, how to tell better stories, how to lay out convincing arguments, how to reduce your nerves when you present, and even a simple communication framework to improve your relationship dynamics.

在我们的谈话中，南希分享了大量的战术建议，包括如何改进自己的演讲、如何讲更好的故事、如何提出令人信服的论点、如何在演讲时减少紧张，甚至还提供了一个简单的沟通框架来改善你们的关系动态。

I had such a good time chatting with Nancy and I'm sure you'll love this episode.

我和南希聊得很开心，我相信你会喜欢这一集。

With that, I bring you Nancy Duarte after a short word from our sponsors.

在我们的赞助商简短发言后，我为您带来了南希·杜阿尔特 (Nancy Duarte)。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Microsoft Clarity, a free easy to use tool that captures how real people are actually using your site.

Lenny：本集由 Microsoft Clarity 为您带来，这是一款易于使用的免费工具，可以捕获真实的人们如何实际使用您的网站。

You can watch live session replace to discover where users are breezing through your flow and where they struggle.

您可以观看实时会话替换，以发现用户在您的流程中轻松完成哪些操作以及他们在哪些操作中遇到困难。

You can view instant heat maps to see what parts of your page users are engaging with and what content they're ignoring.

您可以查看即时热图，以了解用户正在参与页面的哪些部分以及他们忽略了哪些内容。

You can also pinpoint what's bothering your users with really cool frustration metrics like rage clicks, and dead clicks and much more.

您还可以通过非常酷的挫败感指标（例如愤怒点击和死点击等）来查明困扰用户的问题。

If you listen to this podcast, you know how often we talk about the importance of knowing your users and by seeing how users truly experience your product, you can identify product opportunities, conversion wins, and find big gaps between how you imagine people using your product and how they actually use it.

如果您收听此播客，您就会知道我们经常谈论了解用户的重要性，通过了解用户如何真实体验您的产品，您可以识别产品机会、转化成功，并发现您想象的人们如何使用您的产品与他们实际使用产品的方式之间的巨大差距。

Lenny: Microsoft Clarity makes it all possible with a simple, yet incredibly powerful set of features.

Lenny：Microsoft Clarity 通过一组简单但极其强大的功能使这一切成为可能。

You'll be blown away by how easy clarity is to use and it's completely free forever.

您一定会惊讶于 Clarity 的易用性，而且它是永久免费的。

You'll never run into traffic limits or be forced to upgrade to a paid version.

您永远不会遇到流量限制或被迫升级到付费版本。

It also works across both apps and websites.

它还适用于应用程序和网站。

Stop guessing, get Clarity, check out Clarity at clarity.microsoft.com.

别再猜测了，获取 Clarity，请在clarity.microsoft.com 上查看 Clarity。

Lenny: Are you hiring or on the flip side, are you looking for a new opportunity?

莱尼：你们是在招聘还是在寻找新的机会？

Well, either way, check out lennysjobs.com/talent.

好吧，无论哪种方式，请查看 lennysjobs.com/talent。

If you're a hiring manager, you can sign up and get access to hundreds of hand curated people who are open to new opportunities.

如果您是招聘经理，您可以注册并接触数百名对新机会持开放态度的精心挑选的人员。

Thousands of people apply to join this collective and I personally review and accept just about 10% of them.

成千上万的人申请加入这个集体，而我个人审核并接受的人中只有大约 10%。

You won't find a better place to hire product managers and growth leaders.

您找不到比这更好的地方来雇用产品经理和增长领导者了。

Join almost a hundred other companies who are actively hiring through this collective.

加入近百家其他通过这个集体积极招聘的公司。

And if you're looking around for a newer opportunity, actively or passively, join the collective, it's free.

如果您正在积极或被动地寻找新的机会，请加入这个集体，它是免费的。

You can be anonymous and you can even hide yourself from specific companies.

您可以匿名，甚至可以向特定公司隐藏自己。

You can also leave anytime and you'll only hear from companies that you want to hear from.

您也可以随时离开，并且您只会收到您想要的公司的消息。

Check out Lennysjobs.com/talent.

请访问 Lennysjobs.com/talent。

Nancy, welcome to the podcast.

南希，欢迎来到播客。

Nancy Duarte: Thank you for having me, Lenny.

南希·杜阿尔特：谢谢你邀请我，莱尼。

Lenny: How many presentations have you helped craft at this point, both directly and indirectly?

Lenny：到目前为止，您直接或间接帮助制作了多少演示文稿？

Nancy Duarte: That's a great question.

南希·杜阿尔特：这是一个很好的问题。

People know I'll like take a swag at data and pretend it's real.

人们知道我喜欢接受数据并假装它是真实的。

So, I had a president who took us a whack at that number in, it was 2014, and he said at that time it was 225,000, and that was almost 10 years ago, so I can't even tell you, I mean we stopped tracking, but it's a lot.

所以，我有一位总统在 2014 年对这个数字进行了严厉打击，他说当时是 225,000，那是差不多 10 年前的事了，所以我什至不能告诉你，我的意思是我们停止了跟踪，但数量很多。

I mean, in 35 years we have thousands of projects we open and each sometimes has two to a hundred presentations in it, so it'd be hard to tell.

我的意思是，在 35 年里，我们打开了数千个项目，每个项目有时都有两到一百个演示文稿，所以很难说。

Nancy Duarte: He said 250,000, but that was 10 years ago and I didn't do the math.

Nancy Duarte：他说25万，但那是10年前的事了，我没有算过。

So, when my team questioned it, I'm like, oh, Dan did the math.

所以，当我的团队提出质疑时，我想，哦，丹做了数学计算。

They're like, "Oh, then it's accurate." Because they thought I was just making up this number.

他们会说，“哦，那么这是准确的。”因为他们认为我只是编造这个数字。

I'm like, no, no, we actually went in and looked.

我想，不，不，我们实际上进去看了。

Lenny: Okay.

莱尼：好的。

I was not expecting it to be that large.

我没想到它会那么大。

That's insane.

那太疯狂了。

Nancy Duarte: It's so funny because I have the whole history of the Silicon Valley in a way.

南希·杜阿尔特：这很有趣，因为我在某种程度上了解了硅谷的整个历史。

It's like every little startup and then they grew to massive brands like Cisco and you could actually look at the rise and fall of all these companies.

就像每一个小初创公司，然后他们成长为像思科这样的大型品牌，你实际上可以看到所有这些公司的兴衰。

And then I actually have all the decks.

然后我实际上拥有了所有的套牌。

I still have a lot of these archives, so I could actually verify that number exactly.

我仍然有很多这样的档案，所以我实际上可以准确地验证这个数字。

Lenny: Okay, well this next question's going to be extra hard then.

莱尼：好吧，那么下一个问题会特别难。

Of all the presentations you've worked on, which one stands out to you as the most memorable or most impactful?

在您参与过的所有演示中，哪一个对您来说是最难忘或最有影响力的？

Nancy Duarte: I mean, it has to be Al Gore's Inconvenient Truth.

南希·杜阿尔特：我的意思是，这一定是阿尔·戈尔的《难以忽视的真相》。

It kind of hit the world in a season where nobody really knew or had an example of a really well done presentation.

它在一个没有人真正知道或没有一个真正做得很好的演示例子的季节里轰动了世界。

So, it came out before TED Talks were even out on the web, and so people had never seen someone tell a data story and stand in front of data and the scale in 90 foot screen, but we had worked with him for five years before an Inconvenient Truth.

所以，它在 TED 演讲在网络上发布之前就已经出现了，所以人们从来没有见过有人站在 90 英尺屏幕上的数据和比例面前讲述数据故事，但我们在《难以忽视的真相》之前已经与他合作了五年。

People think he went from vice president to this presenter and I didn't work with him.

人们认为他从副总裁变成了主持人，而我没有和他一起工作。

I let my team work with him.

我让我的团队和他一起工作。

So, they were the ones jetting around jumping backstage at Oprah.

所以，他们就是那些在奥普拉后台跳来跳去的人。

They loved it.

他们喜欢它。

It was a real peak season.

那是一个真正的旺季。

Nancy Duarte: But the thing actually that was most memorable is we work with these 20 some year old CEOs here in the Valley and they tend to show up and act like they know better than someone who's been doing this for so long.

Nancy Duarte：但实际上最令人难忘的是我们与硅谷这些 20 多岁的首席执行官一起工作，他们往往表现得比那些已经做了这么长时间的人更了解。

And what was so interesting about this large figure politician communicator is the team would sit in a room and say, "Hey, we think you need to do this way.

这位大人物政治沟通者的有趣之处在于，团队会坐在一个房间里说：“嘿，我们认为你需要这样做。

We think you needed to convey it this way.

我们认为你需要以这种方式传达它。

We think it should be visualized this way." Or whatever it was we were proposing.

我们认为它应该以这种方式可视化。”或者无论我们提议什么。

And he would literally pause and touch his chin and really think, and really consider that we might actually be experts.

他会停下来，摸着下巴，认真思考，认真考虑我们可能真的是专家。

Nancy Duarte: And more times than not he would adopt the way we said it should be done.

南希·杜阿尔特：很多时候他都会采取我们说应该做的方式。

And so I think as the customer who actually probably had some of the most power in the whole world to thoughtfully defer to us as experts was delightful customer and consulting experience.

因此，我认为，作为实际上可能拥有全世界最强大力量的客户，能够深思熟虑地服从我们作为专家的要求，这是令人愉快的客户和咨询体验。

I mean, I remember when they called me to say it was going to become a movie and that it had gotten funded and I started to get the information.

我的意思是，我记得当他们打电话给我说这将成为一部电影并且它已经获得资助时，我开始获取信息。

They wanted us to do a lot of work to get it movie ready.

他们希望我们做很多工作来准备电影。

And I'll never forget, I said, "Wow, that's going to be a lot of work we'd have to do for free, and who's going to go see a movie about a slideshow anyway?" That's literally what I said.

我永远不会忘记，我说，“哇，我们必须免费做很多工作，而且谁会去看一部关于幻灯片的电影呢？”这就是我所说的。

So, yeah, I just didn't believe it would become what it became.

所以，是的，我只是不相信它会变成现在这样。

So, the whole process was amazing.

所以，整个过程是非常奇妙的。

Lenny: Did you expect the impact of what happened after that presentation or was it just like, oh, we got this one job we got to do, let's just get through it and then move on?

莱尼：您是否预料到演示后发生的事情会产生影响，或者只是说，哦，我们得到了必须做的一项工作，让我们完成它然后继续前进？

Nancy Duarte: Well, we've been doing it for five years.

南希·杜阿尔特：嗯，我们已经这样做五年了。

I think the strategy, whether it was intentional or not, I don't know.

我认为这个策略，无论是有意还是无意，我不知道。

So, he would go city to city to city, because he was traveling for five years seeding, like planting seeds for a groundswell, and he went into, he would go to the Stanford campus invite the Bay Area Elite, and it was always private and it was always VIP.

所以，他会从一个城市到另一个城市，因为他花了五年的时间进行播种，就像为风潮播种一样，他会去斯坦福大学校园邀请湾区精英，而且总是私人的，而且总是 VIP。

And so he did a really good job for five years, traveling, traveling, traveling, traveling and really delivering that talk.

所以他在五年里做得非常好，旅行、旅行、旅行、旅行，并真正发表了演讲。

And I think that created a desire.

我认为这创造了一种愿望。

I don't know that it would've gotten that much traction.

我不知道它会有这么大的吸引力。

I don't know if people already didn't know about the presentation and hadn't already seen the presentation and they brought their friends to the movie, is how I kind of picture at least that part happening.

我不知道人们是否已经不知道演示文稿并且还没有看过演示文稿并且他们带朋友去看电影，这就是我对至少那部分发生的情况的想象。

Nancy Duarte: And he was generous, Lenny.

南希·杜阿尔特：他很慷慨，莱尼。

I mean, at the end, when he traveled around for those five years at the end, he always had a slide with our name on it and would thank us if you're in the audience.

我的意思是，最后，当他在这五年里到处旅行时，他总是有一张写有我们名字的幻灯片，如果你在观众席上，他会感谢我们。

I mean, super, and paid, mostly paid for what we did that we did give a lot of our own time.

我的意思是，超级，并且付费，主要是为我们所做的事情付费，我们确实付出了很多自己的时间。

But yeah, super generous and yeah, movie became what it was.

但是，是的，超级慷慨，是的，电影变成了原来的样子。

It was a bit of a surprise.

有点意外。

It was good.

很好。

The movie was good.

这部电影很好。

Lenny: It was good.

莱尼： 很好。

It also makes me think about a pattern that I often see of it wasn't just one presentation that changed everything.

这也让我想到了一种我经常看到的模式，它不仅仅是一个演示就改变了一切。

It was, you said five years of prep ahead of that, and you always see these wow overnight success stories and you always find, okay, it wasn't actually that.

是的，你说提前五年准备，你总是看到这些令人惊叹的一夜成功故事，你总是发现，好吧，实际上并非如此。

Nancy Duarte: Yeah, and he did a good job after, once it got traction, we built a whole training program where he could fly people out to his place in Tennessee and start to train people.

南希·杜阿尔特：是的，他做得很好，一旦获得关注，我们就建立了一个完整的培训计划，他可以将人们带到他在田纳西州的地方并开始培训人们。

So, it almost became a train the trainer and he could sanction you as a ambassador for it.

所以，它几乎变成了培训师，他可以批准你作为它的大使。

So, it was just the way the whole thing kind of unfolded and scaled and then got traction was lovely.

所以，整个事情的展开和规模化然后获得牵引力的方式是可爱的。

Lenny: Speaking of impressive clients, I only learned this recently, but Apple has been a client of yours since the day you were founded as an organization.

莱尼：说到令人印象深刻的客户，我最近才了解到这一点，但自从你们作为一个组织成立之日起，苹果就一直是你们的客户。

Is that right?

是这样吗？

Lenny: Okay.

莱尼：好的。

How did you land that initially?

你最初是如何实现这一目标的？

And then also just what have you learned from that experience that's informed your approach to presentation, design, communication, and how you work with clients?

然后，您从这次经历中学到了什么，这些经验指导了您的演示、设计、沟通以及与客户合作的方式？

Nancy Duarte: I love that question.

南希·杜阿尔特：我喜欢这个问题。

So, yeah, I had a real job.

所以，是的，我有一份真正的工作。

I was working my real job and my husband had bought a Mac and he's like, "I think this is a business.

我正在做我真正的工作，我丈夫买了一台 Mac，他说，“我认为这是一门生意。

I think it could be a real business." And he was an illustrator, wasn't a designer, but he had been a fine artist.

我认为这可能是一门真正的生意。”他是一位插画家，不是设计师，但他是一位优秀的艺术家。

And he's like, "Look, I can draw." Of course it's all pixelated and bit mappy.

他说：“看，我会画画。”当然，这都是像素化和位图的。

He goes, "Look, I could draw lines in here." And if I could show you his art studio, his work is just gorgeous.

他说：“看，我可以在这里画线。”如果我能带你参观他的艺术工作室，他的作品真是太华丽了。

So, he's definitely a fine artist.

所以，他绝对是一位优秀的艺术家。

And he's like, "I think this is a business.

他说：“我认为这是一门生意。

I think this could be a business." And I'm very pregnant.

我认为这可能是一门生意。”而且我已经怀孕了。

We were talking about that earlier.

我们之前讨论过这个。

I am very pregnant with my son and I'm like, "Dude, you're going to go get yourself a real job.

我怀了我的儿子，我就想，“伙计，你要去给自己找一份真正的工作。

I don't want you playing around with this little Mac thing."

我不想让你摆弄这个 Mac 的小东西。”

Nancy Duarte: And he begged me twice in our marriage.

南希·杜阿尔特：在我们的婚姻中，他两次求过我。

He literally has gotten on his knees and to try to get me to see his perspective begged me.

他确实已经跪下来恳求我试图让我明白他的观点。

He's like, "Just read a Mac World magazine, just read it through once, and if you still don't think this could become a thing ..." Because I was working on a mainframe, I'm like, I work on a real computer.

他就像，“只要读一本《Mac World》杂志，读一遍，如果你仍然认为这不会成为一件事......”因为我在大型机上工作，所以我想，我在一台真正的计算机上工作。

So, what happened was I made some phone calls.

所以，发生的事情是我打了一些电话。

I called NASA and I called Tandem, which is now HP, and I called Apple and we won contracts at all three brands at the same time.

我给 NASA 打了电话，又给 Tandem（现在的 HP）打了电话，又给 Apple 打了电话，我们同时赢得了这三个品牌的合同。

And back then our company was called Duarte Desktop Publishing and Graphic Design.

当时我们的公司叫做 Duarte Desktop Publishing and Graphic Design。

Nancy Duarte: I know, I know.

南希·杜阿尔特：我知道，我知道。

And we slipped in.

我们就溜进去了。

When you talk about a product lifecycle, very early, everything was still bit mappy, was not attractive.

当你谈论产品生命周期时，很早的时候，一切都还是有点地图化，没有吸引力。

Most people as users didn't know how to typeset, didn't know how to do columns, didn't know how to make in this tool at all.

大多数人作为用户不知道如何排版，不知道如何做列，根本不知道如何在这个工具中制作。

And there's about an 18 month window in the life cycle of the Macintosh where graphic designers refused to use it, refused.

在 Macintosh 的生命周期中，有大约 18 个月的时间窗口，图形设计师拒绝使用它，拒绝。

It's a toy, it's ugly, it's bit mapped.

这是一个玩具，它很丑，它是位图的。

Nobody would do it, a font like that.

没有人会这么做，像这样的字体。

We use Linotype.

我们使用 Linotype。

It was very, the snobby kind of, we won't touch it.

这是非常势利的，我们不会碰它。

And that's right when we entered right then went and checked out books at the library on type setting, we tried to figure out what we could do, what could we do with this tool, and then the rest was kind of history.

没错，当我们进入图书馆然后去图书馆查阅有关排版设置的书籍时，我们试图弄清楚我们可以做什么，我们可以用这个工具做什么，然后剩下的就是历史了。

And so that's how it started and the timing and just kind of pushing the tool that nobody was that interested in that we're in the design community.

这就是它的开始、时机和推动工具的方式，但我们在设计社区中没有人对它感兴趣。

It was small adoption.

这是小规模的收养。

Lenny: So, that's interesting that it was cold emails basically are cold reach out just like, "Hey, we want to work with you." Yeah, that's an awesome -

莱尼：所以，有趣的是，冷酷的电子邮件基本上都是冷酷的接触，就像，“嘿，我们想与你合作。”是的，这真是太棒了——

Nancy Duarte: Cold calling.

南希·杜阿尔特：冷电话。

Cold calling, yeah, it was.

冷电话，是的，确实如此。

Lenny: What did you take away from that experience that kind of informed what works and doesn't work in presentations?

莱尼：您从这次经历中学到了什么，知道什么在演示中有效，什么无效？

Nancy Duarte: Presentations used to be 35 millimeter slides in an old carousel.

Nancy Duarte：过去的演示文稿是在旧轮播中放置的 35 毫米幻灯片。

In fact, that's what Al Gore had when he showed, he was like, here's my slide carousel from the seventies.

事实上，这就是阿尔·戈尔（Al Gore）展示时所拥有的，他就像，这是我七十年代的幻灯片轮播。

It was just how it was done.

事情就是这样完成的。

But Apple was the first company to hook up the computer to a projector at scale.

但苹果是第一家将电脑大规模连接到投影仪的公司。

Now the projectors at these big venues like San Jose Convention Center, I mean it was huge and it was risky.

现在像圣何塞会议中心这样的大型场馆的投影仪，我的意思是它很大而且很危险。

So, because we were first in, they pushed us to start to do the presentations in this tool and it was black and white.

因此，因为我们是第一个进入的，所以他们敦促我们开始使用这个工具进行演示，而且它是黑白的。

Everything was black and white when we first started.

当我们刚开始时，一切都是黑白的。

And then we started to push and push and push from how we illustrated things in the tool, how we would colorize clip art.

然后我们开始推动我们如何在工具中展示事物，如何为剪贴画着色。

I mean, I'm talking like clip art packages just came out and they're like, "Hey, grab these, colorize them."

我的意思是，我说的是刚刚出来的剪贴画包，他们就像，“嘿，抓住这些，给它们上色。”

Nancy Duarte: And so it was a really momentous moment to win them as an account.

Nancy Duarte：因此，赢得他们的帐户是一个非常重要的时刻。

And I remember the tool had started to really take off and it was ugly.

我记得这个工具已经开始真正流行起来，而且它很丑。

You can call it fugly, I don't know what you want to call it, but everyone who made slides did it so poorly, just so poorly.

你可以称它为“丑陋”，我不知道你想怎么称呼它，但每个制作幻灯片的人都做得很糟糕，非常糟糕。

And we were kind of pushing the boundaries of it to make it look attractive.

我们正在突破它的界限，让它看起来有吸引力。

And there was a sales conference in 1992 in San Francisco and the leader of sales at the time was kind of a creative savant of sorts.

1992 年在旧金山举行了一次销售会议，当时的销售领导是一位创意专家。

And I remember he's like, "I don't know how you're going to do it, but I want you to take the whole slide." This is when slides were basically teleprompted covered in text.

我记得他说，“我不知道你要怎么做，但我希望你能拍下整张幻灯片。”此时幻灯片基本上是用文字提示的。

If you could stick a piece of clip art on it, you were lucky.

如果你能在上面贴一张剪贴画，那你就很幸运了。

And he said, "I want you to just make the whole slide, it's just covered with the word big in hot pink.

他说：“我希望你制作整张幻灯片，只是用亮粉色的“大”字样覆盖。

And I want the background black, because when this slide pops up in all pink big, I want it to actually light the faces of the people in the audience."

我想要黑色的背景，因为当这张幻灯片以全粉红色的大尺寸弹出时，我希望它能够真正照亮观众中的人的脸。”

Nancy Duarte: And it was like I didn't know how to, we couldn't do that.

南希·杜阿尔特：就好像我不知道该怎么做，我们做不到。

We had to go into free hand, convert it to this, do these six steps, and then we came up with a small JPEG at the time or png or something and we scaled it up.

我们必须徒手，将其转换成这样，执行这六个步骤，然后我们想出了当时的一个小 JPEG 或 png 之类的东西，然后我们将其放大。

So, it was still kind of pixelated.

所以，它仍然有点像素化。

And I remember I was in that hall during the rehearsal and the production team gasped.

我记得排练时我就在那个大厅里，制作团队倒吸一口冷气。

Couple people squealed.

几个人尖叫起来。

They're like, "Who did this?

他们会说，“这是谁干的？

I mean, it was just the word big in magenta pink." And I just remember thinking, this is how it's supposed to be done.

我的意思是，这只是洋红色粉红色的“大”这个词。”我只记得我在想，这就是应该做的事情。

Putting the tool in the hands of the masses kind of destroyed the medium itself.

将工具交到大众手中就等于破坏了媒介本身。

Nancy Duarte: And I feel like the first 10 or so years I was in business, it was reshaping this medium that ran amuck when it got into the hands of the users, it just went completely the opposite way that it was supposed to.

南希·杜阿尔特：我觉得在我从业的前十年左右，它正在重塑这种媒介，当它进入用户手中时，它就变得疯狂起来，它的发展方向与预期完全相反。

So, it's weird to say that was a real defining moment for me to say, wait, we can do this different and we can return to how they used to be done when they were 35 millimeter slides.

所以，奇怪的是，这对我来说是一个真正的决定性时刻，我说，等等，我们可以做不同的事情，我们可以回到 35 毫米幻灯片时的做法。

So, that's one story.

所以，这就是一个故事。

And then I think we're very good at mapping to the brand requirements.

我认为我们非常擅长满足品牌要求。

So, we take this tool, whatever the tool, we have all our brands use different ones.

所以，我们采用这个工具，无论是什么工具，我们所有的品牌都使用不同的工具。

They use Slides, Keynote, they use PowerPoint.

他们使用幻灯片、Keynote、PowerPoint。

We use whatever tool the brand wants and we push it in each medium.

我们使用品牌想要的任何工具，并将其推广到每种媒体中。

But we take their brand guidelines and really push it into the spoken word medium where when they stand up on a stage, it's cinematic.

但我们采用了他们的品牌指导方针，并将其真正融入到口头语言媒体中，当他们站在舞台上时，就像电影一样。

The visuals can become an experience in itself.

视觉效果本身就可以成为一种体验。

Nancy Duarte: And I remember when Apple came up with the Think Different campaign.

南希·杜阿尔特：我记得苹果公司发起了“Think Different”活动。

Steve Jobs was just back and my designer, everyone Photoshop was new.

史蒂夫·乔布斯刚刚回来，我的设计师、Photoshop 中的每个人都是新人。

And everyone's doing these beveled backgrounds with tons of crap on the background.

每个人都在做这些斜角背景，背景上有大量垃圾。

And I walked by, I'm like, "No, oh, we can't have a blue frame looking photo frame to for the Think Different campaign.

当我走过时，我想，“不，哦，我们不能为 Think Different 活动提供一个看起来像蓝框的相框。

This is not going to work." And so I remember looking at all the posters and remembering the Alfred Hitchcock ones.

这是行不通的。”所以我记得看着所有的海报并想起了阿尔弗雷德·希区柯克的海报。

It had these particulates like these particulates, and it was just shadows.

它有这些颗粒，就像这些颗粒一样，但它只是影子。

Nancy Duarte: And I found a stock video that Adobe had made at the time, and it was just particulates floating through the air at the angle and we stuck the six color apple on top of it.

Nancy Duarte：我发现了 Adob​​e 当时制作的一个库存视频，它只是以一定角度漂浮在空气中的颗粒物，我们将六色苹果贴在上面。

That was so revolutionary back there to push the brand and get out of the way every, the whole world was making these hideous templates.

这在当时是非常革命性的，它推动了品牌的发展，让全世界都在制作这些丑陋的模板。

So, there are these moments that pushed the company forward because of an idea that I knew would not be okay for the Apple brand, therefore it shouldn't be okay for any brand.

因此，有些时刻推动了公司前进，因为我知道这个想法不适合苹果品牌，因此它不应该适合任何品牌。

And I think those are just a couple stories of how to really push the medium in a way that is more pleasing to the audience.

我认为这些只是关于如何以更令观众满意的方式真正推动媒体发展的几个故事。

The audience just likes it better when it's really clear what you're supposed to focus on.

当观众非常清楚你应该关注什么时，他们会更喜欢它。

We love that brand.

我们喜欢这个品牌。

We love it.

我们喜欢它。

Lenny: Okay, so let's get a little tactical, because you're talking about some very specific things that you've found to be working.

莱尼：好吧，让我们来谈谈策略，因为你正在谈论一些你发现有效的非常具体的事情。

So, everyone listening to this podcast has probably heard many times it's really important to be great at presentations that there's so much power in storytelling and communication, all these things.

因此，每个收听此播客的人可能都多次听说过，出色的演讲非常重要，讲故事和沟通等所有这些事情都有很大的力量。

And they probably read a bunch of books and blog posts and watch videos of how to give a great presentation.

他们可能会阅读大量书籍和博客文章，并观看如何进行精彩演示的视频。

But myself, and I feel like most people sit down at a deck when they're about to present to an all hand, say a week later or are going to do a meeting.

但我自己，我觉得大多数人在准备向全体人员展示时，比如说一周后，或者要开一个会议时，都会坐在甲板上。

And I'm always just like, okay, what do I do?

我总是想，好吧，我该怎么办？

Okay, there's like a beginning, middle end, they should have some kind of problem.

好吧，有一个开始，中间结束，他们应该有某种问题。

And it's always like, I don't know what I'm doing.

而且总是这样，我不知道自己在做什么。

So, if someone were to just be listening to this podcast and they're like, I'm going to write a post-it to myself of three bullet points of things that I should remember when I'm starting a deck, what are those three bullet points?

所以，如果有人只是听这个播客，他们会想，我要给自己写一张便利贴，上面写着我在开始套牌时应该记住的三个要点，这三个要点是什么？

Nancy Duarte: Your audience is the hero.

南希·杜阿尔特：你的观众是英雄。

That was in my TED talk from 2011.

这是我 2011 年 TED 演讲中的内容。

I would say it's infuse your talk with story.

我想说的是，这会让你的演讲充满故事。

And I would say it is asking yourself, can they see what I'm saying?

我想说的是问自己，他们能明白我在说什么吗？

Those would be the three tips other than starting with empathy.

除了从同理心开始之外，这就是三个技巧。

I mean that that's, well, audience is the hero, is the empathy centric approach.

我的意思是，观众就是英雄，是以同理心为中心的方法。

Lenny: Let's dive into these then.

莱尼：那我们就来深入探讨一下吧。

And I was actually going to ask around empathy, and it feels like that comes up a lot in your recommendations to people's empathy is kind of the heart of your methodology of telling great stories, telling great presentations.

我实际上是想问同理心，感觉这在你对人们的建议中经常出现，同理心是你讲述精彩故事、精彩演讲的方法论的核心。

So, let's spend a little time there.

那么，让我们在那里度过一点时间吧。

Why is that so important and what does that actually look like in practice?

为什么这如此重要？在实践中实际情况如何？

Nancy Duarte: Empathy is important to Duarte, everything we do is empathy first.

Nancy Duarte：同理心对 Duarte 来说很重要，我们所做的一切都是以同理心为先。

And some of it comes from my own childhood story a little bit.

其中一些来自我自己的童年故事。

I was raised by a clinically narcissistic mom and narcissist are missing the empathy gene.

我是由一位临床上自恋的母亲抚养长大的，自恋者缺少同理心基因。

So, I feel like that void of not having it modeled for me is why I keep clawing at empathy as being important.

所以，我觉得没有人为我建模是我一直认为同理心很重要的原因。

And I think a lot of people listening might work for a boss that does not have empathy, that isn't other centric, that doesn't think before they talk and all of those things.

我认为很多倾听的人可能会为一个没有同理心、不以他人为中心、说话前不思考等等的老板工作。

And I was raised by someone like that.

我是由这样的人抚养长大的。

And so every single book and every single model that I ever make has empathy at the core because you have to have to think about who am I speaking with, especially in communication, who am I speaking with?

因此，我制作的每一本书和每一个模型都以同理心为核心，因为你必须考虑我在和谁说话，尤其是在沟通方面，我在和谁说话？

And so when I went on my journey through storytelling, I figured out that I thought, okay, the presenter's the hero, for sure the presenter's the hero, they're the central figure.

因此，当我继续讲故事的旅程时，我发现我想，好吧，主持人是英雄，当然主持人是英雄，他们是中心人物。

They're talking the most.

他们说得最多。

They're well lit, they're up on a stage.

他们的灯光很好，他们在舞台上。

Nancy Duarte: So, when I started to look at all the archetypes, that's where I landed.

南希·杜阿尔特：所以，当我开始研究所有原型时，这就是我的落脚点。

And then I was like, oh my god.

然后我就想，天啊。

When I got to really digging into the mentor, I realized it's really the mentor in myths and movies that's the presenter and who really holds the power in the room of a presentation is the audience, the audience gets to make a choice if they accept or reject your idea.

当我真正深入研究导师时，我意识到实际上神话和电影中的导师就是演示者，而在演示室中真正掌握权力的是观众，观众可以做出选择，如果他们接受或拒绝你的想法。

So, the balance of power is with them and not you.

所以，权力的平衡在于他们而不是你。

So, it really is the role of the presenter to be the mentor.

所以，演讲者的角色确实是导师。

And in myths and movies, the mentor comes alongside the hero.

在神话和电影中，导师与英雄并肩而行。

In other words, the presenter should come alongside the audience and help them get unstuck or bring a magical tool.

换句话说，演讲者应该和观众在一起，帮助他们摆脱困境，或者带来一个神奇的工具。

So, I think Obi Won Kenobi's a great example.

所以，我认为奥比·旺·克诺比是一个很好的例子。

Nancy Duarte: He did two things for Luke Skywalker.

南希·杜阿尔特：他为卢克·天行者做了两件事。

He gave him a light saber, which was for his outer journey, the physical journey he was doing, and then an inner tool, which was the resolve, which came to him through the force.

他给了他一把光剑，这是为了他的外在旅程，他正在进行的物理旅程，然后是一个内在的工具，这是决心，通过原力来到他身上。

So, when you're speaking to an audience, they're going to have an internal conflict that you have to give them something to soothe.

因此，当你对听众讲话时，他们会产生内部冲突，你必须给他们一些东西来安抚。

And then you're asking them to therefore go and do this thing, take this action, do this call to action.

然后你要求他们去做这件事，采取这个行动，做这个号召性用语。

That's asking them to physically do something or physically change in some way.

这要求他们在身体上做某事或以某种方式改变身体。

So, they're not going to do that for you if you haven't empathetically thought about how hard what you're asking them is going to be for them to do.

因此，如果你没有同理心地考虑过你要求他们做的事情对他们来说有多困难，他们就不会为你做这件事。

And so you have to change your mindset when you're starting to build your deck to think about who am I talking to?

因此，当你开始构建牌组时，你必须改变你的心态，思考我在和谁说话？

How am I going to help them get unstuck?

我该如何帮助他们摆脱困境？

And that's just a super foundational principle in everything we do.

这只是我们所做的一切的一个超级基本原则。

Lenny: What is an example of that in practice as we go through these?

莱尼：当我们经历这些时，实践中的例子是什么？

Because this is really great of that implemented the deck that we know about maybe?

因为这真的很棒，实现了我们所知道的套牌？

Nancy Duarte: Oh, that we know about.

南希·杜阿尔特：哦，我们知道。

So, I could talk about our own internal ones.

所以，我可以谈谈我们自己的内部问题。

Most of what we do is under MSAs because they're fantastical brands.

我们所做的大部分工作都是在 MSA 下进行的，因为它们是梦幻般的品牌。

So, in my own company, before I do a presentation that's going to require goals or them reaching goals or we do an annual vision talk, we do a listening tour first.

因此，在我自己的公司中，在我进行需要目标或实现目标的演示或我们进行年度愿景演讲之前，我们首先进行聆听之旅。

So, some of it's based in survey, some of it's based in interviews.

所以，有些是基于调查，有些是基于访谈。

And we feed that information up and then we compare it to what we're going to ask them to do.

我们提供这些信息，然后将其与我们要要求他们做的事情进行比较。

And we do some gap analysis.

我们做了一些差距分析。

We literally, there's some actual questions you can ask yourself, which are somewhat classic design thinking kind of questions about where they're at.

从字面上看，您可以问自己一些实际的问题，这些问题是关于它们所处位置的经典设计思维问题。

And then what we do is I create a real rough cut or the exec team creates a real rough cut and then we invite the next level of leaders in and we do a fake, I mean the slides are ugly, we don't spend time on the slides.

然后我们所做的就是我创建一个真正的粗剪，或者执行团队创建一个真正的粗剪，然后我们邀请下一级领导加入，我们做一个假的，我的意思是幻灯片很难看，我们不会花时间在幻灯片上。

Nancy Duarte: This is about the message and maybe a model or two or three that we're going to go through to feel like it may amplify or make the message more concrete.

南希·杜阿尔特：这是关于信息的，也许是一个或两个或三个模型，我们将通过它来感觉它可以放大或使信息更加具体。

And then they get feedback and that's when it's hard.

然后他们得到反馈，那就是困难的时候。

It's hard to go from rough cut, here's what we're going to say to making it absolutely resonate.

从粗剪开始是很困难的，这就是我们要说的让它绝对引起共鸣。

And then we deliver it after all of that work has been done, then we share it to the company.

然后我们在所有工作完成后交付它，然后我们将其分享给公司。

So, we go through that knowing that's the hardest presentation I deliver all year.

因此，我们经历了这一过程，知道这是我全年发表的最难的演讲。

I used to travel and speak and be a public speaker, but it's my own internal ones I have to take more time with.

我曾经旅行、演讲并成为一名公共演讲者，但我必须花更多时间处理我自己的内心问题。

Nancy Duarte: So, when I travel and speak, they're like, oh my God, I love your models.

南希·杜阿尔特：所以，当我旅行和演讲时，他们会说，天哪，我喜欢你的模特。

Oh my gosh, can I get a picture with you?

天哪，我可以和你合影吗？

But when I'm standing in front of my own team, they're like, I wonder what she's going to say, because she's about to either make my job harder or she's going to change my priorities.

但当我站在自己的团队面前时，他们会说，我想知道她会说什么，因为她要么会让我的工作变得更加困难，要么她会改变我的优先事项。

They come in more skeptical.

他们更加持怀疑态度。

And we definitely have nailed the annual kickoff meeting.

我们确实已经确定了年度启动会议。

Definitely have nailed that.

肯定已经做到了。

And then we do quarterly updates to that annual kickoff meeting.

然后我们每季度对年度启动会议进行更新。

And it's a cadence and people get enthused and we're kind of killing it right now.

这是一种节奏，人们会感到兴奋，而我们现在正在扼杀它。

Lenny: Yeah, that's what it feels like from the outside.

莱尼：是的，从外面看就是这个感觉。

I'm just thinking about the pressure to create presentations within Duarte Design.

我只是在考虑在 Duarte Design 内创建演示文稿的压力。

If you think about your job as hard, creating a deck for your company, imagine that.

如果你认为你的工作很辛苦，为你的公司制作一个套牌，想象一下。

Nancy Duarte: Presentations in front of presentation experts is like-

Nancy Duarte：在演示专家面前的演示就像-

Nancy Duarte: And I get nervous.

南希·杜阿尔特：我很紧张。

I get really nervous because I have one slide that's kind of flawed or I say um or I pace too much.

我真的很紧张，因为我有一张幻灯片有缺陷，或者我说嗯或者我节奏太快了。

You lose a third of your team each time.

每次你都会失去团队的三分之一。

They're such experts.

他们真是专家。

So, it's hard.

所以，这很难。

Lenny: I want to walk through these three bullet points.

莱尼：我想介绍一下这三个要点。

So, the first is make the listener the hero of your story.

所以，首先是让听众成为你故事的英雄。

And that comes from being empathetic and understanding their challenge.

这来自于同理心和理解他们的挑战。

So, if you're trying to do that, what are signs that you're doing it well or not well?

那么，如果您尝试这样做，有哪些迹象表明您做得很好或做得不好？

Is there the way the flow of the story start?

故事的流程有这样的开始吗？

Is it the here's the way it starts?

事情就是这样开始的吗？

Or what should people identify of I'm doing this well or I'm not doing this well?

或者人们应该通过什么来判断我做得好还是做得不好？

Nancy Duarte: If the audience is the hero, you would see visible signs that they get it.

南希·杜阿尔特：如果观众是英雄，你会看到明显的迹象表明他们明白了。

People would come before I did a really good talk and people were tweeting saying, "Hey, come to this talk.

在我做了一次非常好的演讲之前，人们就来了，人们在推特上说：“嘿，来参加这个演讲。

It's really good." So, you'd see a reaction.

真的很好。”所以，你会看到反应。

You know you've done it well if you're infusing your talk with story, which is the second bullet by utilizing story structures.

如果你在演讲中融入故事，你就知道你已经做得很好了，这是利用故事结构的第二个要点。

So, when I say storytelling, I'm talking about an anecdote.

所以，当我说讲故事时，我指的是一件轶事。

When I say story structures, I'm talking about this format of a three act structure of storytelling that goes back tens of thousands of years, which is fused into the brain like FMRI machines now you can see them while a story's being told and the science is beautiful, if you're telling me a story and I'm listening, our brains are firing in the exact same order, in the exact same place.

当我说故事结构时，我指的是这种可以追溯到数万年前的三幕式讲故事结构，它像功能磁共振成像机器一样融入大脑，现在你可以在讲故事时看到它们，科学是美丽的，如果你给我讲一个故事而我在听，我们的大脑会以完全相同的顺序、在完全相同的位置放电。

So, it has power to align our brains.

所以，它有能力调整我们的大脑。

Nancy Duarte: And so by implementing attributes of story like a beginning, a middle, and an end, and we have method for that.

南希·杜阿尔特：因此，通过实现故事的属性，如开头、中间部分和结尾，我们有方法实现这一点。

And in also incorporating the rise and fall story kind of builds tension and releases it.

在融入兴衰故事的同时，也营造了一种紧张感，然后又将其释放出来。

And that's why we love it so much is we escape through someone else's messy middle and conflict and problems like it's messy and then it resolves.

这就是为什么我们如此喜欢它，因为我们逃离了别人混乱的中间、冲突和问题，就像它是混乱的，然后它就解决了。

You build the tension and resolve it.

你制造紧张并解决它。

And that's what a really well structured presentation can do.

这就是结构良好的演示文稿所能做到的。

It can pull on that rise and fall in a way that creates longing.

它可以以一种产生渴望的方式拉动这种上升和下降。

Nancy Duarte: So, story creates longing.

南希·杜阿尔特：所以，故事创造了渴望。

It helps people long for something they'd never wanted before because if the future is told in the shape of a story and they see this alternate future, so many people escape through sci-fi.

它帮助人们渴望他们以前从未想要过的东西，因为如果未来以故事的形式讲述，并且他们看到了另一个未来，那么很多人就会通过科幻小说逃离。

They escape through movie making into these future worlds.

他们通过电影制作逃到了这些未来的世界。

And so picture that you could verbally paint a picture of this future state and then you could bring your whole audience to this future state in an amazing way using this cadence of rise and fall.

因此，想象一下，你可以口头描绘出这个未来状态的图画，然后你可以使用这种上升和下降的节奏，以一种令人惊奇的方式将你的所有观众带到这个未来状态。

That's how you can incorporate story into a presentation where you need to influence others, actually really can be beautiful when it's done well.

这就是你如何将故事融入到你需要影响他人的演示中，如果做得好的话，实际上真的可以很漂亮。

Lenny: And so you gave a TEDx Talk on this exact topic.

Lenny：所以你就这个话题做了一次 TEDx 演讲。

And so I want to go deeper here.

所以我想在这里更深入地探讨。

And you kind of shared this very visual way of thinking about a great story where it kind of goes up and down and up and down these teeth almost.

你分享了这种非常直观的方式来思考一个伟大的故事，它几乎在牙齿上上下起伏。

Can you actually talk about-

你真的能谈谈吗-

Lenny: Can you share what that structure visually looks like?

Lenny：你能分享一下这个结构的视觉效果吗？

And we'll share a link in the show notes of what that actually looks like and then just why that is so impactful and important.

我们将在节目笔记中分享一个链接，介绍它的实际外观，以及为什么它如此有影响力和重要。

Nancy Duarte: Yeah, I love that.

南希·杜阿尔特：是的，我喜欢这个。

So, I went on a three year journey through story and I knew that the greatest speeches overall time did have that rise and fall and rise and fall.

因此，我经历了三年的故事之旅，我知道最伟大的演讲确实有起起落落。

But it wasn't one single story.

但这不是一个单一的故事。

It had a whole lot of other very important information, but it still did this rise and fall and risen fall.

它有很多其他非常重要的信息，但它仍然经历了这种上升和下降以及上升下降。

So, I am not a digital native.

所以，我不是数字原住民。

I took a quarter inch graph paper and I would listen to all kinds and map out, took the words.

我拿了四分之一英寸的方格纸，我会听各种各样的声音并绘制出来，记下文字。

When I analyzed Steve Jobs's iPhone launch speech, I did it all by hand.

当我分析史蒂夫·乔布斯的 iPhone 发布会演讲时，我都是手工完成的。

I wrote every word I did quarter inch graph paper.

我写的每一个字都是四分之一英寸的方格纸。

I needed to know, I needed to see it the way I work, which was analog.

我需要知道，我需要以我的工作方式来看待它，这是模拟的。

And so at first it was zigzaggy and I realized, wait, you can't map something over time and have it be a zigzag.

所以一开始它是锯齿形的，我意识到，等等，你不能随着时间的推移绘制一些东西并让它成为锯齿形。

Nancy Duarte: There was too much data lost.

Nancy Duarte：丢失了太多数据。

So, to verbally describe it, you could picture a line at the bottom of your screen and that line going left to is what is.

因此，为了口头描述它，您可以在屏幕底部想象一条线，该线向左延伸就是实际情况。

And you need to set up every talk by stating what is.

你需要通过陈述事实来开始每次演讲。

And then it moves straight up and you move to what could be come back down to the bottom line again say what is, back up, what could be, what is, what could be, what is, what could be?

然后它直线上升，你移动到可能是什么，回到底线，再次说是什么，备份，可能是什么，是什么，可能是什么，是什么，可能是什么？

And then at the last what could be you state the last horizontal line is what we call the new bliss.

最后，你可能会说最后一条水平线就是我们所说的新幸福。

So, this motion of traversing between what is, what could be, what's is, what could be, what is, what could be, that sense of longing for the future, it makes people leave their current state or the status quo or our current reality and makes them long for this future state by using contrast.

所以，这种在现在是什么、可能是什么、现在是什么、可能是什么、现在是什么、可能是什么、现在是什么、可能是什么之间穿梭的运动，那种对未来的渴望感，它让人们离开他们现在的状态或者现状或者我们现在的现实，通过对比让他们渴望这个未来的状态。

Nancy Duarte: So, that rise and fall of hey, here's our current problem, here's a solution, or here's the state of the union.

南希·杜阿尔特：所以，嘿，这是我们当前的问题，这是解决方案，或者这是国情咨文。

But we imagine it could look like this.

但我们想象它可能看起来像这样。

There's so many different ways to build that cadence of contrast that's so lovely.

有很多不同的方法可以构建如此可爱的对比节奏。

I mean it really works.

我的意思是它确实有效。

I think the talk came out in 2011 and the amounts of notes and emails of things people have accomplished by changing the structure of their presentation has been really astounding.

我认为这个演讲是在 2011 年发表的，人们通过改变演示文稿结构所完成的事情的笔记和电子邮件数量确实令人震惊。

Lenny: The State of the Union is a really interesting example because I'm trying to imagine this and presentations I've seen and that totally resonates of just like, here's the problem we're having and here's where we're going to go.

莱尼：国情咨文是一个非常有趣的例子，因为我试图想象这个和我看过的演示，这完全引起了共鸣，就像我们遇到的问题，这就是我们要去的地方。

Here's another problem we're having.

这是我们遇到的另一个问题。

Here's what I'm going to change.

这就是我要改变的。

Nancy Duarte: Steve Jobs was great at that.

南希·杜阿尔特：史蒂夫·乔布斯在这方面做得很好。

When he launched the iPhone speech, he always did, here's the state of the company, here's how we're doing.

当他发表 iPhone 演讲时，他总是这样做，这就是公司的状况，这就是我们正在做的事情。

Oh my God, our stores are more full than 10 Mac world expos.

天哪，我们的商店比 10 个 Mac 世界博览会还满。

He always did a setup of what was going on.

他总是对正在发生的事情做好准备。

And then he did a really rapid what is, what could be when he started to compare the iPhone to the Blackberry.

然后，当他开始将 iPhone 与黑莓进行比较时，他非常快速地了解了现状和可能。

It's like, look how much it sucks now that you've seen what we're doing.

就像，现在你已经看到我们正在做的事情了，看看这有多糟糕。

It's just what is, what could be, what is, what could be.

这只是现在是什么、可能是什么、现在是什么、可能是什么。

And so I took all the classic speeches, historical speeches, everything, presidential speeches and knew that if I could find a pattern in Dr. King and Steve Jobs's iPhone launch speech that was the same, that had the same type of nature of cadence and pulsing to it, for lack of a better word, that I knew I had solved it using story.

因此，我学习了所有经典演讲、历史演讲、所有内容、总统演讲，并且知道，如果我能在金博士和史蒂夫·乔布斯的 iPhone 发布会演讲中找到一种相同的模式，具有相同类型的节奏和脉动，因为缺乏更好的词，我知道我已经用故事解决了这个问题。

It was a really great moment to finally draw that out on my quarter inch graph paper.

最终将其绘制在我的四分之一英寸方格纸上，这真是一个伟大的时刻。

Lenny: I feel like there's just so much opportunity for primary research that still I feel like that's why my newsletter does well is I just spent the time doing that work that you're describing of watching a thousand interviews and then just distilling, here's a takeaway here.

莱尼：我觉得初级研究的机会太多了，我仍然觉得这就是我的时事通讯做得很好的原因，因为我只是花了时间做你所描述的观看一千次采访然后提炼的工作，这里有一个要点。

Nancy Duarte: Pattern finding, that's an interesting point.

Nancy Duarte：模式发现，这是一个有趣的观点。

I worry sometimes with the emergence of new technologies and stuff, the ability to be able to sit and think, synthesize and all of that is because a human's going to come up with different insights and synthesis than any future machine can do.

有时我担心新技术和新东西的出现，担心能够坐下来思考、综合的能力，所有这一切都是因为人类会提出与任何未来机器不同的见解和综合。

So, I think it's fascinating that you do that so well and it really shows that.

所以，我认为你做得这么好真是令人着迷，它确实表明了这一点。

Nancy Duarte: Yeah, you're really putting your mind and heart into it all.

南希·杜阿尔特：是的，你真的全身心投入到这一切中。

Lenny: Enough about me, I'm thinking about, but I appreciate it, I'm thinking about product managers and founders maybe listening to this and they're like, oh man, every time I do a deck, I need to create this whole story and this up and down thing.

莱尼：关于我的事情已经够多了，我在想，但我很欣赏这一点，我在想产品经理和创始人可能会听到这个，他们会说，天哪，每次我做套牌时，我都需要创造整个故事以及上下的事情。

In your experience, when do you go that far to create?

根据你的经验，你什么时候会走那么远去创造？

Is this when you have an epic important presentation, you think about a story structure like this, or is there always a way you should put this into your presentations of some kind of story with this contrast?

当你有一个史诗般的重要演示时，你会考虑这样的故事结构，还是总有一种方法你应该将其放入具有这种对比的某种故事的演示中？

Nancy Duarte: It's interesting question.

南希·杜阿尔特：这是一个有趣的问题。

I think a lot of people think that the only time you really need to present well is when you have a big stage talk and you make the big investment in the script, the big investment in the contrasting story.

我认为很多人认为，唯一真正需要表现出色的时候是当你进行大型舞台演讲并且对剧本进行大量投资时，对对比故事进行大量投资。

But I'll tell you a dirty little secret.

但我要告诉你一个肮脏的小秘密。

I can get my husband to do chores for me on the weekends with a real quick, what is, what could be new bliss, kind of just that first bit, what is, what could be new bliss.

我可以让我的丈夫在周末为我做家务，非常快，什么是，什么可能是新的幸福，有点只是第一点，什么是，什么可能是新的幸福。

It's like even the very, very short talk that Abraham Lincoln gave in the Gettysburg address, it was basically a funeral, it was a eulogy.

就像亚伯拉罕·林肯在葛底斯堡演说中发表的非常非常简短的讲话一样，它基本上是一场葬礼，是一篇悼词。

And back then eulogies used to be two hours long.

那时的悼词通常长达两个小时。

It was an Aristotelian structure and he only had a couple hundred words, so there's no pictures of him giving it because it was so short, so tight and done.

这是一个亚里士多德式的结构，他只有几百个字，所以没有他给出的照片，因为它太短了，太紧凑了。

Nancy Duarte: They were setting up the cameras, still thinking they had tons of time.

南希·杜阿尔特：他们正在架设摄像机，仍然认为自己还有很多时间。

So, the ability to just have that contrast as a framework in your brain during a meeting, on a phone call, any moment of influence, getting the husband to do some chores for me, literally it works.

所以，在开会、打电话、任何有影响力的时刻，让这种对比作为你大脑中的一个框架，让丈夫为我做一些家务，这确实是有效的。

It works in any format.

它适用于任何格式。

And I think the investment that you make in the longer form or when it's a huge audience, you add the visuals, you really hire the speaker coaches, you really make that moment.

我认为你在较长的形式中进行的投资，或者当有大量观众时，你添加了视觉效果，你真的聘请了演讲教练，你真的创造了那一刻。

And there's these moments that breach above all other moments where you really have to nail it just in basic conversations, in a moment of influence.

有些时刻比其他所有时刻都重要，你必须在基本对话中、在有影响力的时刻才能解决这个问题。

If you practice it enough, it'll live in your head as a mental model for when you're in a situation where there's influence in the air that you could do.

如果你练习得足够多，它就会作为你的心理模型存在于你的脑海中，当你处于空气中你可以施加影响的情况时。

Lenny: How do you actually do it with your husband if you could share for helping you do the dishes?

莱尼：如果你可以分担帮助你洗碗的话，你实际上如何与你的丈夫一起做呢？

Nancy Duarte: Well, I won't get graphic about what the new bliss might be, but early in our marriage we figured out that, not early, I actually spent almost in the only the last 10 years we've been married for 40.

南希·杜阿尔特：嗯，我不会具体说明新的幸福可能是什么，但在我们结婚的早期，我们就发现，不是很早，我实际上几乎是在我们结婚 40 周年的最后 10 年里度过的。

And we realized that when we tangle it's usually only about process.

我们意识到，当我们纠结时，通常只是与流程有关。

So, the gaps are if I ask or he asks me to do something or we start to kind of pick on each other, it's because the way I'm executing something is different than the way he chose to execute it.

所以，差距在于，如果我要求或他要求我做某事，或者我们开始互相挑剔，那是因为我执行某事的方式与他选择执行某事的方式不同。

And so it'll be anything from like, "Why are you chopping onions like that?" He'll say to me.

所以它会是这样的，“你为什么要这样切洋葱？”他会对我说。

And now I'm like, oh, we have a process gap.

现在我想，哦，我们有一个流程差距。

"Do you want to chop the onions or do you want me to chop them my way?" So, for the what is, what could be new bliss, it happens all the time.

“你想切洋葱还是要我按照我的方式切洋葱？”所以，对于现在的、可能是新的幸福来说，它一直在发生。

Nancy Duarte: So, he needs a lot of context.

南希·杜阿尔特：所以，他需要很多背景信息。

He's a detail-oriented person and I've started to learn with him that my what is needs to be quite a bit longer than sometimes I have patience for as I start to frame, "Oh hey baby, I need you to take the dog over to the dog care." I don't start there.

他是一个注重细节的人，我开始和他一起学习，我的事情需要比有时我有耐心的时间要长得多，因为我开始框架，“哦嘿宝贝，我需要你把狗带到狗护理处。”我不从那里开始。

I start with, "Oh my gosh, tomorrow I've got back to back meetings, in fact, I'm going to be on Lenny's Podcast right about here.

我首先说道：“天哪，明天我要参加连续的会议，事实上，我将在这里参加莱尼的播客。

And that's when she's whiny.

这就是她发牢骚的时候。

And what's going to happen is if that doesn't happen, I'm going to have to reschedule next week and next week it's just loaded up.

将会发生的情况是，如果这没有发生，我将不得不重新安排下周的时间，而下周的时间就满了。

And you know how it is when I'm stressed out at the end of the day and I'm kind of hard to deal with and I say, well, what could be, the doggy place, she was loved it last time she was spooning with a red cavalier king spaniel and loved it."

你知道，当我在一天结束时感到压力很大，有点难以应对时，我会说，好吧，可能是什么，狗的地方，她上次用勺子舀一只红色骑士国王西班牙猎犬时很喜欢它，并且很喜欢它。”

Nancy Duarte: It's like that, I have to unpack it a little bit more for him.

Nancy Duarte：是这样的，我得为他再拆开一点。

And then the new bliss could be any sort of marital promise you want it to be, but I just have to unpack the current state a little bit of the process, and then I state what could be.

然后新的幸福可以是你想要的任何形式的婚姻承诺，但我只需要稍微解开当前状态的过程，然后我说明可能是什么。

And it's funny because acts of service like that, like him taking the dog to the doggy daycare for me or is I feel loved.

这很有趣，因为像这样的服务行为，比如他为我带狗去狗狗日托中心，或者我感到被爱。

So, when someone does something generous with their time for me, it's how I feel loved.

所以，当有人花时间为我做一些慷慨的事情时，我就会感到被爱。

And so there's a whole lot there in shaping how you communicate with someone.

因此，塑造你与某人的沟通方式有很多因素。

Empathetically at my company, everyone knows each other's love language.

在我的公司里，每个人都知道彼此的爱的语言。

They know that this person feels more appreciated when they get a written note.

他们知道，当他们收到书面便条时，这个人会感到更加感激。

This person feels more appreciated when they get a gift and everyone knows that.

当这个人收到礼物时，他们会感到更加被感激，这是每个人都知道的。

So, that's just baked into our, I don't know, our marriage, our company, just how it rolls.

所以，这已经融入了我们的，我不知道，我们的婚姻，我们的公司，就是它的运作方式。

Lenny: I imagine people listening to this podcast were not expecting marriage advice.

莱尼：我想听这个播客的人并没有期待婚姻建议。

And so I love that.

所以我喜欢这样。

I'm going to try.

我要尝试一下。

Nancy Duarte: You can scrap that if it doesn't work the process tip though is good.

Nancy Duarte：如果它不起作用，你可以放弃它，但流程提示很好。

Lenny: This is going to be the best part.

莱尼：这将是最好的部分。

This is going to be the whole podcast is just the segment.

这将是整个播客只是其中的一部分。

Just joking.

只是开玩笑。

But this is really good advice.

但这确实是个好建议。

I'm going to try to use it myself.

我要尝试自己使用它。

So, the structure, I think it's even easier to think about this less as story, infused story.

所以，就结构而言，我认为更容易将其视为故事，注入故事。

For me it's more this, what is, what could be, what is the ideal bliss, that's almost the simpler way to think about it.

对我来说，更多的是这个，是什么，可能是什么，理想的幸福是什么，这几乎是思考它的更简单的方式。

The story is this like, oh my God, I got to think of a story.

故事是这样的，天哪，我得想一个故事。

Nancy Duarte: It has a beginning, middle, and an end.

南希·杜阿尔特：它有开始、中间和结束。

So, the first, what is is the beginning.

所以，第一，就是开始。

The middle is the messy middle.

中间是乱七八糟的中间。

That's where you're trying to contrast and show them that it's messy.

这就是你试图对比并向他们展示它是混乱的地方。

It might be hard, it's worth it.

也许很难，但值得。

And then the new bliss, you end with what in western cultures, where's like a happy ending.

然后新的幸福，你以西方文化中的幸福结局结束。

So, the new bliss is just imagine a world with your idea adopted, and then you paint a picture of that world poetically or pragmatically, and it works.

所以，新的幸福就是想象一个采纳你的想法的世界，然后你以诗意或务实的方式描绘出那个世界的图画，它就起作用了。

It definitely works.

它绝对有效。

Lenny: Okay, this is really great.

莱尼：好的，这真的很棒。

So, just to recap, point one is to make your listener the hero of the story and come at it with empathy.

所以，回顾一下，第一点就是让你的听众成为故事的英雄，并带着同理心来理解它。

And I was actually thinking the Think Different campaign is an excellent example of that because it's about you thinking differently and being this incredible creative.

我实际上认为“Think Different”活动就是一个很好的例子，因为它是关于你以不同的方式思考并发挥令人难以置信的创造力。

And then item two is infuse your presentation with story and this what is, what could be new bliss.

第二项是在你的演讲中注入故事，这可能是新的幸福。

And then, okay, and number three, what was number three again?

然后，好吧，第三，第三又是什么？

Nancy Duarte: Oh, it was ask yourself if they can see what you're saying.

南希·杜阿尔特：哦，这是问你自己，他们是否能看到你在说什么。

Can they see what I'm saying would be written on the note?

他们能看到我在纸条上写的内容吗？

Lenny: I love this.

莱尼：我喜欢这个。

Okay, let's talk about that.

好吧，我们来谈谈这个吧。

What does that mean and how do you do that?

这是什么意思以及如何做到这一点？

Nancy Duarte: Yeah, so for people to see what you're saying, that you have an opportunity to use visual tools like the presentation software, you have opportunities to have live sketchers sketch it while you're talking.

南希·杜阿尔特：是的，所以为了让人们看到你在说什么，你有机会使用演示软件等可视化工具，你有机会让现场素描师在你说话的时候画出草图。

There's so many ways you can help people see what you're saying.

有很多方法可以帮助人们了解您所说的内容。

I would contend that you can use something in your talk that gives people something they'll always remember.

我认为你可以在演讲中使用一些能让人们永远记住的东西。

We call that a star moment.

我们称之为明星时刻。

And it could be a piece of dramatic data where the big numbers put up there.

这可能是一个戏剧性的数据，里面有大量的数字。

It could be an evocative story, it could be a beautiful picture.

它可以是一个令人回味的故事，它可以是一幅美丽的图画。

And one of the things that happens really well, especially with tech companies, is demonstrating through a picture so you can get alignment.

发生得非常好的事情之一，尤其是对于科技公司来说，就是通过图片进行演示，这样你就可以达成一致。

So, the concept of a diagram when you describe your product that you're working on, is this thing inside of it, outside of it attached to it, is it on it is above it, especially architecture slides or just how technology works as something flows through a complex system.

所以，当你描述你正在开发的产品时，图表的概念是，这个东西在它的内部，它的外部附着在它上面，它是在它上面还是它上面，特别是架构幻灯片或者技术如何在复杂系统中流动的过程中工作。

Nancy Duarte: When people can see that and it accompanies your verbal narrative, they can actually understand what you're conveying and move on.

南希·杜阿尔特：当人们看到这一点并且它伴随着你的口头叙述时，他们就能真正理解你所传达的内容并继续前进。

If you only had a verbal narrative, it wouldn't work as well.

如果只是口头叙述，效果就不好。

There's a lot of times though, where you don't have the support of a presentation or slides.

但很多时候，您没有演示文稿或幻灯片的支持。

You could be at a dinner table.

你可能在餐桌上。

If you're in a interesting conversation and you want someone to see what you're saying, that's where you pull out the napkin and you draw it.

如果你正在进行一场有趣的谈话，并且你想让别人看到你在说什么，那么你就可以拉出餐巾纸并画出来。

So, you could both see it, in meetings sometimes someone will just walk right up to the board and draw something.

所以，你们都可以看到，在会议中有时有人会直接走到黑板上画一些东西。

And my team, especially my design team is so good at this because they'll just stand up and say, I want to draw for you what I see, because we're about to prepare them to present to an audience.

我的团队，尤其是我的设计团队非常擅长这一点，因为他们会站起来说，我想为你画出我所看到的，因为我们即将准备将它们呈现给观众。

When you verbally said that, I saw this, was that your intent?

当你口头这么说的时候，我看到了这个，这就是你的意图吗？

Nancy Duarte: And then the room will stand up and we'll start all co-creating a graphic so that everyone sees the exact same thing, the exact same steps, the exact same insights in the order.

南希·杜阿尔特：然后房间会站起来，我们将开始共同创建一个图形，以便每个人都能看到完全相同的事物、完全相同的步骤、完全相同的见解。

So, nobody leaves with a question in their mind.

因此，没有人会带着疑问离开。

And that's just so important for there to be an alignment around what is this?

这对于围绕这是什么进行协调非常重要？

What are we all fighting for?

我们都在为什么而战？

What are we all living for?

我们大家活着到底是为了什么？

What are we all working for?

我们大家工作到底是为了什么？

And those moments of alignment are so, so important.

这些协调一致的时刻非常非常重要。

And I'm a leader who sees things in the air.

我是一个能预见事情的领导者。

I just see it.

我只是看到了。

And to me, my pattern finding nature, which you're like that too.

对我来说，我的模式寻找本质，你也是这样。

I could see these patterns and to me, I see a whole scene and I could see it all clearly, but when my team's trying to look at the same thing, they might see 22 mosaic tiles out of a massive mosaic beautiful picture.

我可以看到这些图案，对我来说，我看到了整个场景，我可以清楚地看到一切，但是当我的团队尝试查看同一事物时，他们可能会从一幅巨大的马赛克美丽图片中看到 22 个马赛克瓷砖。

Nancy Duarte: I see the final beautiful picture, but I've only served up a little tiny mosaic tile in a few places.

南希·杜阿尔特：我看到了最终的美丽图片，但我只在几个地方提供了一点小小的马赛克瓷砖。

And so I even have to be better about really bringing it to earth and saying, oh, here's the seven steps to get to this amazing outcome.

因此，我什至必须更好地将其真正带到现实中，并说，哦，这是实现这一惊人结果的七个步骤。

Sometimes we see things so plainly in our mind's eye, and I was working with a really famous, powerful CEO and as she was talking, it's like, yeah, I could see her.

有时候，我们在脑海中看得很清楚，我正在与一位非常著名、有权势的首席执行官合作，当她说话时，就像是，是的，我可以看到她。

I was watching her hand motions too, and she was like in this thing and she's moving her arms around in a distinct way and I said, I can tell you you have a picture in your mind's eye.

我也在看她的手势，她就像在这件事中，她以一种独特的方式移动她的手臂，我说，我可以告诉你，你的脑海中有一幅画面。

Nancy Duarte: Let me draw for what I, and I did the same thing, walked up, drew had this, had this, had this.

南希·杜阿尔特：让我画出我自己的东西，我做了同样的事情，走上前去，画了这个，画了这个，画了这个。

And she's like, "Exactly." And we were brought in because nobody could articulate at all what she saw in her mind's eye.

她说：“没错。”我们被带进来是因为没有人能清楚地表达出她在脑海中所看到的一切。

And so that was a massive program to be rolled out to the entire retail.

因此，这是一个要推广到整个零售业的庞大计划。

It was like a hundred thousand retail workers needed to understand this graphic and the whole process she was trying to roll out wasn't getting traction.

就像需要十万名零售员工来理解这张图片一样，而她试图推出的整个流程却没有得到关注。

So, the minute people could see what she was saying, then it had all the breakthroughs that needed to happen around that program.

因此，一旦人们能够看到她在说什么，那么围绕该计划需要发生的所有突破就已经实现了。

Lenny: That reminds me of when I was working on the super host program at Airbnb.

Lenny：这让我想起了我在 Airbnb 做超级房东项目的时候。

I don't know if the story will be of any interest to anyone, but I just remember I had this very clear handset of motions that described the strategy of the super host program.

我不知道这个故事是否会引起任何人的兴趣，但我只记得我有一个非常清晰的动议手机，描述了超级主持人计划的策略。

And then my friend's like, you should draw this on a slide-

然后我的朋友说，你应该把它画在幻灯片上-

Nancy Duarte: You should draw it.

南希·杜阿尔特：你应该画它。

Unless it's such a powerful hand gesture, right?

除非这是一个非常有力的手势，对吧？

Yeah, you could do that because your body is visual.

是的，你可以这样做，因为你的身体是视觉的。

And the other thing we try to get our customers to do is, if Dr. King had slides that day of the I Have a Dream speech, it just wouldn't been as beautiful.

我们试图让客户做的另一件事是，如果金博士那天有“我有一个梦想”演讲的幻灯片，它就不会那么漂亮。

His words painted the pictures in our mind's eye.

他的话在我们脑海中描绘了一幅图画。

And so when we can have the slides off so people are focused on the verbal stream and what's coming out of your mouth that is such a powerful moment is to not have any visuals supporting you.

因此，当我们可以关闭幻灯片时，人们可以专注于言语流以及从你嘴里说出的话，这是一个如此强大的时刻，而没有任何视觉效果支持你。

So, they're a hundred percent focused on your body, how you're showing up and on the words coming out of your mouth and they're verbally seeing what you're saying versus actually pictorially seeing what you're saying.

所以，他们百分百关注你的身体、你的表现以及从你嘴里说出的话，他们是口头上看到你在说什么，而不是实际上通过图片看到你在说什么。

It's good.

很好。

Lenny: I like the idea that people are not staring at me and I prefer them distracted with a slide and I want to talk about nerves and stuff presenting in a bit.

莱尼：我喜欢人们不盯着我看的想法，我更喜欢他们用幻灯片分散注意力，我想谈谈紧张和一些呈现的东西。

But that's interesting.

但这很有趣。

So, you were talking about very kind of some concrete tips for slides and something I've heard a lot is when you're sharing a deck internally or talking an internal meeting, it's really powerful to just have obviously just a quick image thing, but then also the title of the slide is the point you want them to get from that slide.

所以，你谈到了一些关于幻灯片的具体技巧，我经常听到的是，当你在内部共享幻灯片或在内部会议上进行讨论时，仅仅拥有一个快速的图像确实非常强大，但幻灯片的标题也是你希望他们从幻灯片中获得的要点。

Is that something you recommend?

这是你推荐的吗？

And then generally any just very tactical advice on how to make a slide effective?

那么一般来说，关于如何使幻灯片有效的任何非常战术性的建议？

Nancy Duarte: Yeah, the concept that each slide should make one point.

南希·杜阿尔特：是的，每张幻灯片都应该表达一个观点。

So, your whole presentation should be grounded in what we call the audience journey, which is the big idea where you're trying to move them from where you're trying to move them to.

因此，你的整个演示应该以我们所说的观众旅程为基础，这是一个重要的想法，你试图将他们从你试图将他们转移到的地方。

Then a big idea is what is your point of view and what's at stake if they do or do not adopt it?

那么一个重要的想法是你的观点是什么，如果他们采纳或不采纳你的观点，会有什么危险？

That's the organizing mechanism for your whole deck.

这就是整个套牌的组织机制。

And then each slide itself that supports that one big, big idea, each slide itself should make one point in support of that big idea.

然后，每张幻灯片本身都支持这个大想法，每张幻灯片本身都应该提出一个观点来支持这个大想法。

People can't process too many things at one time, so depending on where you work, some people want something that's not the key insight at the top of the slide, some people do.

人们无法一次处理太多的事情，因此根据您的工作地点，有些人想要的东西不是幻灯片顶部的关键见解，有些人则想要。

So, some might want the action to be taken or some might want the dreamy future state to be clear.

因此，有些人可能希望采取行动，或者有些人可能希望梦想的未来状态清晰可见。

Nancy Duarte: Some consulting firms where the slides are much denser because they were paid millions of dollars to make a big old deck.

南希·杜阿尔特：一些咨询公司的幻灯片更加密集，因为他们花费了数百万美元来制作一个大的旧甲板。

Some of them are like, "Oh, it always belongs in the lower right corner." So, it's kind of a little bit up to the brand and everyone believes it belongs somewhere else.

其中一些人会说，“哦，它总是属于右下角。”所以，这有点取决于品牌，每个人都认为它属于其他地方。

If you're making what we call a slide doc, which I think your listenership would be interested in, presentations go from big staged event to in a meeting where you're trying to persuade your peers too.

如果您正在制作我们所说的幻灯片文档（我认为您的听众会对此感兴趣），那么演示就会从大型舞台活动转变为您也试图说服同事的会议。

Can I make a presentation I can just circulate on email and everyone gets it?

我可以做一个演示文稿，然后通过电子邮件分发，然后每个人都能收到吗？

Well, that's called a slide doc.

嗯，这就是所谓的幻灯片文档。

You put more words, you put stronger picture.

你放了更多的文字，你放了更强烈的图片。

You could have a hundred page appendix and maybe the front of it's only five slides, but everything they need to see your thinking, it follows behind it.

你可能有一百页的附录，前面可能只有五张幻灯片，但他们需要了解你的想法的一切都在后面。

Nancy Duarte: And you could circulate those and people read it.

南希·杜阿尔特：你可以分发这些内容，人们会阅读它。

You write full sentences, you write full pros.

你写出完整的句子，你写出完整的专业人士。

It's kind of like the six page memo that's so popular to Amazon, but we contend that the F words and pictures, the six page memo is better.

这有点像亚马逊很流行的六页备忘录，但我们认为，由于文字和图片，六页备忘录更好。

So, how do you send a memo around without the help of a presenter?

那么，如何在没有演示者帮助的情况下发送备忘录呢？

And that's on one extreme.

这是一个极端。

And those are called slide docs that you build in presentation software.

这些被称为幻灯片文档，是您在演示软件中构建的。

And then the other extreme is I'm on a massive stage somewhere and there's all kinds of usage in between.

另一个极端是我在某个地方的一个巨大舞台上，中间有各种各样的用途。

And so I think the one idea per slide is important.

所以我认为每张幻灯片的一个想法很重要。

And then this guiding principle, don't make a single slide unless it supports the one big idea of your whole talk.

然后是这个指导原则，不要制作一张幻灯片，除非它支持整个演讲的一个重要想法。

That's another principle for slide making, because most people go back to some sort of repository in some data store somewhere and they dig through old crappy slides and see if they can assemble something super quickly.

这是幻灯片制作的另一个原则，因为大多数人都会回到某个数据存储中的某种存储库，他们会翻阅旧的蹩脚幻灯片，看看是否可以超快地组装一些东西。

Nancy Duarte: And that's a cop out.

南希·杜阿尔特：那是一种逃避。

Most of the time if you really think empathetically about your audience, going to the repository might get you halfway there, but you should be modifying and mapping all of the content based on who you're talking to and especially if it's high stakes.

大多数时候，如果您真的以同理心考虑您的受众，那么访问存储库可能会让您成功一半，但您应该根据与您交谈的对象来修改和映射所有内容，尤其是在风险较高的情况下。

And sometimes you're speaking to an audience that wants high density slides, because that's how they communicate in their culture.

有时，您面对的观众需要高密度幻灯片，因为这就是他们在自己的文化中交流的方式。

And if you showed up with cinematic stage ready slides, they'd laugh you out of the room.

如果你带着电影舞台幻灯片出现，他们会把你笑出房间。

And so you really got to, I mean, you got to know your audience, you got to know how they communicate, who they talk to and map to that.

所以你真的必须，我的意思是，你必须了解你的听众，你必须知道他们如何沟通，他们与谁交谈并与之对应。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Eppo.

Lenny：这一集是 Eppo 为您带来的。

Eppo is a next generation A/B testing platform built by Airbnb alums from modern growth teams.

Eppo 是由来自现代增长团队的 Airbnb 校友构建的下一代 A/B 测试平台。

Companies like DraftKings, Zapier, ClickUp, Twitch and Cameo rely on Eppo to power their experiments.

DraftKings、Zapier、ClickUp、Twitch 和 Cameo 等公司依靠 Eppo 来支持他们的实验。

Wherever you work running experiments is increasingly essential, but there are no commercial tools that integrate with a modern grow team stack.

无论您在哪里工作，运行实验都变得越来越重要，但是没有可以与现代种植团队堆栈集成的商业工具。

This leads to waste of time building internal tools or trying to run your own experiments through a clunky marketing tool.

这会导致浪费时间构建内部工具或尝试通过笨重的营销工具进行自己的实验。

When I was at Airbnb, one of the things that I loved most about working there was our experimentation platform where I was able to slice and dice data by device types, country, user stage.

当我在 Airbnb 工作时，我最喜欢在那里工作的事情之一就是我们的实验平台，我可以在其中按设备类型、国家/地区、用户阶段对数据进行切片和切块。

Lenny: Eppo does all that and more delivering results quickly, avoiding annoying prolonged analytics cycles and helping you easily get to the root cause of any issue you discover.

Lenny：Eppo 不仅能做到这一切，还能快速提供结果，避免烦人的长时间分析周期，并帮助您轻松找到所发现问题的根本原因。

Eppo lets you go beyond basically through metrics and instead use your north star metrics like activation, retention, subscription and payments.

Eppo 可以让您超越基本指标，而是使用您的北极星指标，例如激活、保留、订阅和付款。

Eppo supports, test on the front end, on the backend, email marketing, even machine learning plans.

Eppo 支持前端测试、后端测试、电子邮件营销，甚至机器学习计划。

Check out Eppo at geteppo.com, that's geteppo.com and 10 x your experiment velocity.

在 geteppo.com 上查看 Eppo，这是 geteppo.com，它是您的实验速度的 10 倍。

What's your take on the Minto Pyramid principle?

您对明托金字塔原则有何看法？

I don't know if you think about that.

我不知道你是否考虑过这一点。

Yeah, because there's a recommendation of just start with the conclusion and then explain why.

是的，因为有人建议先从结论开始，然后解释原因。

And you're saying sometimes that's effective, sometimes not.

你说有时这有效，有时则无效。

Maybe in -

也许在——

Nancy Duarte: Sometimes it's effective.

南希·杜阿尔特：有时这是有效的。

So, the Minto principle is amazing.

所以，明托原则是令人惊奇的。

She's got the, was it horizontal and vertical thinking?

她明白了，这是横向思维还是纵向思维？

So, your main segues or your main section head should add up and then all the slides should support it.

因此，您的主要段落或主要章节头应该加起来，然后所有幻灯片都应该支持它。

And then also how the construct of it is and when you state the conclusion first, that's a great thing to do with execs.

然后还有它的结构是如何的，当你首先陈述结论时，这对高管来说是一件很棒的事情。

It's a great thing to do when you are fundraising.

当你筹款时，这是一件很棒的事情。

There's a certain type of an audience that works for, and there's other audiences where they really need to be taught to long for this future state and you need longer to unpack it.

有某种类型的受众是适合的，而还有其他受众确实需要被教导他们渴望这种未来的状态，并且你需要更长的时间来解开它。

So, one of the reasons you would start with the conclusion is especially in a funding round, now my version of a conclusion or result or is different than how she describes it.

因此，您从结论开始的原因之一尤其是在一轮融资中，现在我的结论或结果版本与她所描述的不同。

Because I would say you start with the new bliss.

因为我想说你要从新的幸福开始。

So, if you're trying to raise funds, you would say, I am going to share with you something today and you share how your solution increases human flourishing.

所以，如果你想筹集资金，你会说，我今天要与你分享一些东西，你分享你的解决方案如何促进人类繁荣。

Nancy Duarte: It needs to be tied to the humanness and the big problem you're going to solve and how humankind will benefit.

南希·杜阿尔特：它需要与人性、你要解决的大问题以及人类将如何受益联系在一起。

Well, that's different than just a consultant would show up and say, hi, I have this 800 page deck and the results of it are this.

嗯，这不同于顾问出现并说，嗨，我有这个 800 页的甲板，它的结果是这样的。

Let's unpack it.

让我们拆开它的包装。

It's just a completely different motion and we use a three act story structure that's quite a bit different too.

这只是一个完全不同的动作，我们使用的三幕故事结构也有很大不同。

But that work is solid and it was based kind of like my work, her work was based in going super deep in McKinsey's thinking over time, whereas my work is going laterally across the 35 highest performing brands in the world that have been our customers.

但这项工作是扎实的，它的基础有点像我的工作，她的工作是基于对麦肯锡随着时间的推移进行超深入的思考，而我的工作是横向研究世界上 35 个表现最好的品牌，这些品牌一直是我们的客户。

So, I went laterally across all those brands and then come up with solutions that are based, foreign story and are based in a bit of a broader application across companies that I have tons of respect for that body of work.

因此，我横向研究了所有这些品牌，然后提出了基于外国故事的解决方案，并且基于我非常尊重这些工作的公司的更广泛的应用。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

And willing to, I wrote a post about this whole concept for folks that want to dig deeper.

我愿意为那些想要深入挖掘的人写一篇关于整个概念的文章。

Maybe one more question around tactical slide stuff, and I know this is, people ask you about this stuff all the time, but I can't help it.

也许还有一个关于战术幻灯片的问题，我知道人们总是问你关于这个问题的问题，但我无能为力。

I guess just any other tips for just like you're sitting there trying to create a couple slides.

我想还有其他一些技巧，就像您坐在那里尝试创建几张幻灯片一样。

What else maybe people should keep in mind to make it effective and let's say this is for a small meeting kind of thing.

人们还应该记住什么才能使其有效，假设这是一个小型会议之类的事情。

Nancy Duarte: Yeah, that's a good question.

南希·杜阿尔特：是的，这是一个很好的问题。

I think that if do some thinking first, if it's important, if it's an important point of the meeting, my team is taught to just kind of sketch, change your environment up a little bit.

我认为，如果先做一些思考，如果它很重要，如果它是会议的一个重要点，我的团队就会被教导只做草图，稍微改变一下你的环境。

A lot of people will fire up the deck, which is very linear.

很多人都会启动这套牌，这是非常线性的。

It's like make one slide, second slide, third slide.

这就像制作一张幻灯片、第二张幻灯片、第三张幻灯片。

So, just think and plan for a minute.

因此，请思考并计划一分钟。

And we tend to draw up storyboards.

我们倾向于绘制故事板。

It's like, okay, the first point, the second point, the third point or the just think first.

就像，好吧，第一点、第二点、第三点或者先想一想。

It can be analog or digital.

它可以是模拟的或数字的。

Put a page in front of all your decks.

在所有牌组前面放一页。

It's just boxes.

这只是盒子。

Just get the narrative right.

只要叙述正确即可。

And then when you actually open up the software, that's where you have to think about, what's the slide type that will convey this the most?

然后，当您真正打开软件时，您必须考虑什么幻灯片类型最能传达这一点？

Is it a table?

是桌子吗？

Put a table.

放一张桌子。

Especially for program managers, you have to convey dense project information, program information, product information, and that comes with density.

尤其是对于项目经理来说，你要传达密集的项目信息、项目信息、产品信息，密度是随之而来的。

Nancy Duarte: So, if you're in a room with your peers and everyone in the room is a team and everyone has their own shorthanded and way of working, put that common slide up there.

南希·杜阿尔特：所以，如果你和同事在一个房间里，房间里的每个人都是一个团队，每个人都有自己的人手短缺和工作方式，那么就把那张共同的幻灯片放在那里。

That common slide for that team might be dense to the outside world, but everyone's used to using it so there's no harm in using a commonly known, commonly acceptable framework or slide or table or Excel spreadsheet because you're aligning around a process.

该团队的通用幻灯片可能对外界来说很密集，但每个人都习惯使用它，因此使用众所周知的、普遍可接受的框架或幻灯片、表格或 Excel 电子表格没有什么坏处，因为您是在围绕流程进行调整。

And so don't feel like every needs like cinematic pictures of kittens because that's not going to get you anywhere.

所以不要觉得每一个需求都像小猫的电影图片，因为那不会让你有任何帮助。

You're trying to move an objective along, and that does mean that your slides might be more dense and sometimes internal slides have a lot more important information that needs to be on it to kick a product along or kick a process along.

您正在尝试推进目标，这确实意味着您的幻灯片可能会更加密集，有时内部幻灯片上有很多更重要的信息，需要在其上推动产品或推动流程。

Lenny: You were just talking about process and that is a great segue to a question I wanted to ask is just what does your process look like when you're working with a company to help them craft an awesome presentation?

莱尼：您刚才谈到了流程，这很好地引出了我想问的一个问题：当您与一家公司合作帮助他们制作出色的演示文稿时，您的流程是什么样的？

Nancy Duarte: Yeah.

南希·杜阿尔特：是的。

Yeah.

是的。

It's funny because I don't have to do this much anymore.

这很有趣，因为我不必再做这么多了。

I haven't done it for about 15 years, which is nice.

我已经有大约 15 年没有这样做了，这很好。

I have a gorgeous team of strategist, writers, conceptual thinkers, beautiful design.

我有一个由战略家、作家、概念思想家和漂亮的设计组成的华丽团队。

Nancy Duarte: Coaches.

南希·杜阿尔特：教练。

Yeah, I know.

是的，我知道。

I get coached.

我接受辅导。

It's fun.

很有趣。

I definitely, my books look awesome, not because of me, but because I'm followed around by people that do really gorgeous work.

我当然，我的书看起来很棒，不是因为我，而是因为我周围的人都做出了非常出色的工作。

But the phrase that we use internally and sometimes with customers is we make presentations the way Pixar makes movies.

但我们在内部以及有时与客户使用的一句话是，我们以皮克斯制作电影的方式进行演示。

And that's very similar to the way we get somebody that has this high stakes moment where it's a big deal in this moment.

这与我们在这个高风险时刻找人的方式非常相似，在这个时刻这是一件大事。

You have to win in the moment to push things along.

你必须赢得当下才能推动事情向前发展。

And so we do, we literally craft a narrative, craft the big idea, craft the script and visualize certain moments.

所以我们确实这样做了，我们确实制作了一个叙述，制作了大创意，制作了剧本并想象了某些时刻。

We start to map it out, we start to chunk it out.

我们开始绘制它，我们开始将它分块。

Nancy Duarte: And then big models sometimes when you're really making a revolutionary model, one that could drive all the web assets, a lot of that stuff people don't realize actually happens in the presentation first as an idea.

Nancy Duarte：然后是大型模型，有时当你真正制作一个革命性的模型时，一个可以驱动所有网络资产的模型，很多人们没有意识到的东西实际上首先作为一个想法出现在演示中。

So, sometimes we'll start working on some of the key models right away too, and we start to circulate that around the company, because everyone has to build consensus around it.

因此，有时我们也会立即开始研究一些关键模型，并开始在公司内部进行传播，因为每个人都必须围绕它建立共识。

So, sometimes there's multiple motions happening at the same time.

因此，有时会同时发生多个动作。

Let's sketch this.

我们来画一下这个。

You go away, you work with this department, you try to get this settled, you get that set, you get this.

你离开，你与这个部门合作，你试图解决这个问题，你得到了那一套，你得到了这个。

Nancy Duarte: And then it gets reassembled at the end.

Nancy Duarte：最后它会被重新组装。

And then the narrative is where you work all the kinks out and then when they stand and deliver, it's like, yes, it's the voice track that all the process supported.

然后叙述就是你解决所有问题的地方，然后当他们站起来并交付时，就像，是的，这是所有过程支持的语音轨道。

And then other times we're building a report in a slide doc, or there was a time where we had a head of a multinational company that will remain nameless and the guy that was head of all of India was going to come over here and petition the CEO for a hundred million dollar budget.

有时我们会在幻灯片文档中编写报告，或者有一次，我们有一家跨国公司的负责人，但他的名字仍然不详，而整个印度的负责人会来这里，向首席执行官请求一亿美元的预算。

Nancy Duarte: It's not trivial.

南希·杜阿尔特：这不是小事。

And he comes, is like, "Okay, I need your help with these five slides." And he just sends us the five slides and we're like, "Well yeah, a hundred million.

他来了，就像是，“好吧，我需要你帮助我制作这五张幻灯片。”他只是给我们发了五张幻灯片，我们就说，“好吧，一亿张。

That's kind of a lot.

那是很多。

You really want to put technology between you and the CEO.

你确实希望将技术置于你和首席执行官之间。

Do you really want to sit side by side and both be looking at a computer in this moment where it's like you're petitioning him for, that's a lot of money." And he's like, "Yeah, you're right." So, what we did is we made a mental model he could hold up in his head and the structure was so simple and clear.

你真的想并排坐在一起看着电脑，就像你在向他请愿一样，那是一大笔钱。”他说：“是的，你是对的。”所以，我们所做的就是制作了一个他可以在头脑中保存的心理模型，而且结构非常简单明了。

And then there was three moments where we're like just, I don't know, just grab a piece of paper or go to a whiteboard and just start to draw in front of him.

然后有三个时刻，我们就像，我不知道，只是抓起一张纸或走到白板前，开始在他面前画画。

Let him see your eyes, let him have eye contact.

让他看到你的眼睛，让他有眼神交流。

Nancy Duarte: Let him see your passion.

南希·杜阿尔特：让他看到你的热情。

Don't be dispassionately looking at this computer.

不要冷静地看着这台计算机。

And he did it and he called us and he's like, "I got a hundred million bucks." So, it's just those moments where you have to realize, wait, wait, wait, wait.

他做到了，他打电话给我们，他说，“我有一亿美元。”所以，正是在那些时刻你必须意识到，等待，等待，等待，等待。

Do I need a deck?

我需要甲板吗？

Who am I talking to?

我在和谁说话？

And should is this a cookie cutter thing?

这应该是一个千篇一律的事情吗？

And does the same process work every time?

每次都是同样的过程吗？

No. So, every time we solve something it's very different and we try to make it unique to the presenter and the audience that they're speaking to.

不会。因此，每次我们解决某个问题时，情况都会有所不同，我们会尽力使其对演讲者和听众来说是独一无二的。

Lenny: Along the same lines, a lot of presentations now are actually remote and on Zoom and virtual.

Lenny：同样，现在很多演示实际上都是远程的、通过 Zoom 和虚拟进行的。

What do you recommend to people in terms of how they present and put presentations together being remote?

对于人们如何进行远程演示和整理演示，您有何建议？

Nancy Duarte: Yeah, it's funny, we spent a lot of time coaching people to look in the camera.

南希·杜阿尔特：是的，这很有趣，我们花了很多时间指导人们看着镜头。

So, while I've been talking to you, I'm not actually looking at your face.

所以，当我和你说话时，我实际上并没有看着你的脸。

I'm looking at the little dot at the top of my screen and my camera.

我正在看着屏幕和相机顶部的小点。

And not a lot of people can do that.

而且没有多少人能做到这一点。

So, it's gotten to where I can see that little white glowing dot and my heart warms, I know you're there, I feel you.

所以，到了我可以看到那个白色小发光点的地方，我的心温暖起来，我知道你在那里，我感觉到你。

I can get sensations in my skin when I know I'm talking to someone that I adore or admire.

当我知道我正在和我崇拜或钦佩的人交谈时，我的皮肤会有感觉。

And that took a long time to get there.

这花了很长时间才到达那里。

And I was presenting remotely pre COVID.

在新冠疫情爆发之前，我正在远程进行演讲。

So, a lot of our coaching was about eye contact and doing that.

所以，我们的很多辅导都是关于目光接触和这样做。

The other thing that happens is people don't see our hands anymore.

发生的另一件事是人们不再看到我们的手。

They're under the table.

他们在桌子下面。

They can't see how much space in a room we're taking up.

他们看不到我们占用了房间多少空间。

Nancy Duarte: They can't see a lot of the characteristics that are common in communicating.

南希·杜阿尔特：他们看不到沟通中的很多常见特征。

And so there's a lot of coaching around presence and how do you have presence in a room?

因此，有很多关于存在感的指导，以及如何在房间里保持存在感？

How do you even get the microphone away from someone that's remote and all those kinds of things.

你如何才能让麦克风远离远处的人以及诸如此类的事情。

And a new study just came out, I just came across my desk today and it said that soft skills really suffered.

一项新的研究刚刚发布，我今天刚看到我的办公桌，它说软技能确实受到了影响。

And the people who did it right say and looked at the camera, they don't have good eye contact skills anymore.

做得对的人看着镜头说，他们不再有良好的眼神交流技巧了。

When they are looking face-to-face in someone's eyes, it's like, oh, they're not used to it.

当他们面对面看着别人的眼睛时，他们会觉得，哦，他们不习惯。

It's been so long.

已经过去这么久了。

Nancy Duarte: And then the other thing is, where do I sit in a room who's got the position of authority?

南希·杜阿尔特：另一件事是，我坐在一个拥有权威地位的房间里的哪个位置？

Just kind of some classic things that convey information in real life.

只是一些在现实生活中传达信息的经典事物。

So, it's interesting, it peaked and now people are going back to the office some.

所以，这很有趣，它达到了顶峰，现在人们开始返回办公室。

A percent are back in the office.

百分之一的人回到了办公室。

And now we have this weird place where it's, oh, it's half in the office and half people are remote.

现在我们有一个奇怪的地方，哦，一半在办公室，一半人在远程。

And the people that are remote are having a hard time getting their voices heard because the people in the room consume most of the air.

远处的人很难听到他们的声音，因为房间里的人消耗了大部分空气。

So, it's kind of going through this undulating life cycle of new communication skills people need while they're remote.

因此，人们在远程办公时需要新的沟通技能，这就像经历一个波动的生命周期。

It's all changing.

一切都在改变。

Lenny: I'm glad that I was not a PM in this remote world to be honest.

Lenny：说实话，我很高兴我不是这个遥远世界的 PM。

I never experienced it, but I have a lot of empathy for being a product manager in this remote work world.

我从未经历过这种情况，但我对在这个远程工作世界中担任产品经理有很多同理心。

Feels like the job got a lot harder.

感觉工作变难了。

Lenny: Yeah.

莱尼：是的。

So, let's talk about nerves and stage fright.

那么，我们来谈谈紧张和怯场。

So, I hate public speaking.

所以，我讨厌公开演讲。

I get extremely nervous people.

我让人们感到非常紧张。

They may not feel this when they watch me, but it's not my natural state.

他们看我的时候可能感觉不到这一点，但这不是我的自然状态。

You work with a lot of people that I imagine are like, oh my god, I'm so scared to give this presentation.

我想象你和很多人一起工作，他们会说，天哪，我太害怕做这个演讲了。

What advice do you give them to help them through that and feel more comfortable?

您给他们什么建议来帮助他们度过难关并感到更舒服？

Nancy Duarte: Yeah, I think people who are more thoughtful and contemplative about speaking have better content.

南希·杜阿尔特（Nancy Duarte）：是的，我认为那些在演讲方面更加深思熟虑和沉思的人有更好的内容。

They tend to really think through stuff than someone who's like, I got this.

他们往往比那些“我明白了”的人更能真正思考问题。

I'll just wing it.

我就即兴发挥吧。

I'll just walk on the stage.

我就走上舞台吧。

Anyone who's like, tells me I am a nervous presenter, I'm like, you have probably got gorgeous content in your heart that the world needs to hear, because usually they are really deep and thoughtful.

任何像这样的人都告诉我，我是一个紧张的演讲者，我想，你心里可能有世界需要听到的精彩内容，因为通常它们非常深刻和深思熟虑。

Like you already mentioned, you're a pattern finder and you like to do thoughtful work.

正如您已经提到的，您是一个模式发现者并且喜欢做深思熟虑的工作。

And so it's hard.

所以这很难。

My husband is actually a brilliant communicator, just getting him to feel like he wants to take up the space.

我丈夫实际上是一个出色的沟通者，只是让他觉得他想要占据这个空间。

He's a better communicator than I am.

他比我更善于沟通。

And so what happens is the reason you get scared, it's a fight or flight instinct.

所以发生的事情就是你感到害怕的原因，这是一种战斗或逃跑的本能。

For some reason stepping out on that stage, you feel your body and your mind and your psyche is feeling threatened like you would be attacked by an animal.

出于某种原因，当你走上舞台时，你会感觉到你的身体、你的思想和你的心灵受到威胁，就像你会受到动物的攻击一样。

Nancy Duarte: That's literally what's happening.

南希·杜阿尔特：这确实是正在发生的事情。

And so you couple things you could do.

所以你们把你们能做的事情结合起来。

You can actually sit in one of the seats of the auditorium and just sit there and look at the stage, look at the setting so you can imagine yourself on it.

你实际上可以坐在礼堂的一个座位上，看着舞台，看看布景，这样你就可以想象自己站在上面。

But then picture yourself as that friendly face, the one that's happy to see you, the one that's delighted that you're speaking.

但是，然后将自己想象成那张友好的面孔，那个很高兴见到你的人，那个很高兴你说话的人。

And then as you're standing up, remember that you saw yourself sitting there smiling and very happy.

然后当你站起来时，请记住你看到自己坐在那里微笑并且非常高兴。

You have to change your visual model that people's faces will be scowling, they'll be judging you, they'll be doubting you.

你必须改变你的视觉模型，人们的脸会皱着眉头，他们会评判你，他们会怀疑你。

All of those things are only in your head because getting you out on the stage to be able to start to expose people to this amazing content you have, the biggest battle is to get you out on this stage and delivering it.

所有这些事情都只在你的脑海中，因为让你走上舞台，能够开始向人们展示你拥有的这些令人惊叹的内容，最大的战斗就是让你走上这个舞台并交付它。

Nancy Duarte: And I asked a bunch of people once, I did a survey of all these public speakers and was like, how do you prepare?

南希·杜阿尔特：我曾经问过很多人，我对所有这些公共演讲者进行了一项调查，然后问，你们准备如何？

How do you prepare?

你准备如何？

What's your pre-talk ritual?

你的演讲前仪式是什么？

And some of them were like, "I play heavy metal music and I skip around the entire convention center, just get all fired up." I'm like, "Wow, I have to calm myself down because I already have over to the top energy." So, I literally find the dark.

他们中的一些人就像是，“我播放重金属音乐，然后在整个会议中心跳来跳去，只是兴奋不已。”我想，“哇，我必须让自己冷静下来，因为我已经拥有了最高的能量。”所以，我确实发现了黑暗。

I don't go to the green room, that stuff.

我不去休息室之类的。

I don't like to hear gibber jabber.

我不喜欢听胡言乱语。

I have to be focused on my content.

我必须专注于我的内容。

And so I find the darkest corner of the backstage and calmly sit and just breathe.

于是我找到后台最黑暗的角落，平静地坐下来呼吸。

I just breathe.

我只是呼吸。

Sometimes if I'm nervous, if there's someone real famous in the audience, I have a little list playlist of funny things that people sent me, but I never watch.

有时，如果我很紧张，如果观众中有真正出名的人，我会列出一些人们发给我的有趣内容的播放列表，但我从不看。

And that way right before I walk on stage, I chemically, my whole body chemically shifts from nervous to laughter.

这样，在我走上舞台之前，我的整个身体就会从紧张变成笑声。

And that really helps me too, because it's chemical and you have to train your chemistry a bit.

这对我也很有帮助，因为它是化学的，你必须稍微训练一下你的化学反应。

Lenny: I really like that tip.

莱尼：我真的很喜欢这个建议。

What are these funny things you watch if you-

如果你——

Nancy Duarte: It's like YouTube things, TikTok things.

Nancy Duarte：这就像 YouTube、TikTok 的事情。

Just things that I tag and I try not to watch them or things that make me laugh.

只是我标记的东西，我尽量不看它们或让我发笑的东西。

There's this dorky low watched video of a guy with tin cans wrapped around his waist and he plays them.

有一段愚蠢的低观看视频，视频中一个人腰上缠着锡罐，然后他播放了它们。

And my husband walks around the house like him and making the noise and I could probably sing the beat if I had to.

我丈夫像他一样在房子里走来走去，发出噪音，如果需要的话，我可能可以唱出节拍。

And so sometimes I just play that, because it just transports me home, because a lot of times I'm presenting away from home and it just makes me laugh at my husband who's hysterical.

所以有时我就玩这个，因为它让我回家，因为很多时候我在外面做演讲，它只会让我嘲笑我歇斯底里的丈夫。

So, it's just random things, but if you laugh and somehow can transport yourself outside of the fear of walking out there, it helps reset you before you walk out on stage.

所以，这只是随机的事情，但如果你笑并且能以某种方式让自己摆脱走出去的恐惧，它会帮助你在走上舞台之前重新调整。

Lenny: I really like that.

莱尼：我真的很喜欢这样。

Is there anything else just off the top of your head that just like right before you go on stage that you find to be really effective?

在你上台之前，有没有什么事情是你突然想到的，但你发现它确实很有效？

So, watching funny videos, I love that.

所以，看有趣的视频，我很喜欢。

use it.

使用它。

Anything else?

还要别的吗？

Nancy Duarte: I breathe.

南希·杜阿尔特：我呼吸。

I think I've learned a breathing pattern.

我想我已经学会了一种呼吸方式。

I take a deep, deep breath and then I take that one while my lungs are full, I take another gulp of breath and I have to let it out real slow.

我深深地吸了一口气，然后当我的肺部充满空气时我吸了一口气，我又吸了一口气，我必须非常缓慢地呼出。

But when I got the feedback that my friend and some people get over their fear by headbanging to heavy metal, so I'm not saying that's not the wrong thing.

但当我得到反馈说我的朋友和一些人通过重金属来克服恐惧时，所以我并不是说这不是错误的事情。

So, I thought, well, maybe I should try that before I do a talk.

所以，我想，好吧，也许我应该在演讲之前尝试一下。

And so I literally didn't do that.

所以我确实没有这么做。

But I stretched, I jumped a little, just low jumps, put my arms real big up in the air.

但我伸展了身体，跳了一点，只是低跳，把我的手臂大大地举在空中。

And then I walked on stage and I happened to be speaking at a massive medical company, like big brand.

然后我走上舞台，碰巧在一家大型医疗公司演讲，就像大品牌一样。

And I finished my talk and my assistant got a call and they were like, "We're little worried about Nancy.

我讲完后，我的助理接到电话，他们说：“我们并不担心南希。

We think she might need to see a doctor.

我们认为她可能需要去看医生。

She could never control her breathing and we're really concerned."

她永远无法控制自己的呼吸，我们真的很担心。”

Nancy Duarte: And it was just because I just pumped myself up a little bit.

南希·杜阿尔特：这只是因为我给自己打气了一点。

So, I don't do that whatsoever anymore.

所以，我不再这样做了。

I went back to my calming, contemplative, meditative pre-talk ritual.

我又回到了谈话前的平静、沉思、冥想的仪式。

So, for some people, literally I do encourage people to try headbanging to heavy metal.

所以，对于某些人来说，我确实鼓励人们尝试重金属音乐。

It might work.

它可能会起作用。

It's just a matter of what you need.

这只是你需要什么的问题。

And nobody would guess that I'm not one to dance around or pump myself up, but I am not, I have to calm myself down.

没有人会猜到我不是一个会跳舞或给自己打气的人，但我不是，我必须让自己冷静下来。

It's the opposite.

事实恰恰相反。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

Just a few more questions.

还有几个问题。

Lenny: So, you wrote a book called Illuminate and something that stood out to me from that book is this idea of a torch bearer and torch bearer leader.

莱尼：所以，你写了一本叫《照亮》的书，那本书中对我来说最突出的一点是火炬手和火炬手领袖的想法。

Can you just talk about what that is and why that is important in power?

您能谈谈这是什么以及为什么这对权力很重要吗？

Nancy Duarte: Yeah, I loved writing that book.

南希·杜阿尔特：是的，我喜欢写那本书。

Co-author Patty Sanchez, a hat tip to her.

合著者帕蒂·桑切斯（Patty Sanchez）向她致敬。

So, to come up with this book, we knew that there's one presentation, there's a single presentation, could be on a stage, could be in a meeting, just updating people on a project status.

因此，为了编写这本书，我们知道有一个演示，有一个演示，可以在舞台上，可以在会议中，只是向人们通报项目状态。

And we knew though that every presentation usually is part of a larger movement where you're trying to move people in mass to this alternate future.

我们知道，每一次演讲通常都是一场更大运动的一部分，你试图将人们大批带入另一个未来。

So, we studied movements, we deconstructed the largest movements.

所以，我们研究了动作，我们解构了最大的动作。

We met with Marshall Ganz at Harvard to say, "Hey, could this be true?" Because he studies movements.

我们在哈佛大学会见了马歇尔·甘茨，问道：“嘿，这是真的吗？”因为他研究动作。

It was so fun.

太有趣了。

And then movements have a five act structure.

然后动作有五幕结构。

So, picture, there's this moment where you have to verbalize the dream like, hey, we're going to head to this new place and this is what I have to do at my kickoff meetings.

所以，想象一下，在这个时刻，你必须用语言表达你的梦想，比如，嘿，我们要前往这个新地方，这就是我在启动会议上必须做的事情。

It's like imagine this place in the future that we're headed to.

这就像想象我们未来要去的这个地方。

Nancy Duarte: So, it's five steps, it's a five act story structure, if you want to call it five acts.

南希·杜阿尔特：所以，它有五个步骤，它是一个五幕故事结构，如果你想称之为五幕的话。

It's dream, leap, fight, climb, arrive.

是梦想、跳跃、战斗、攀登、到达。

So, the torch bearer, the reason we called that is the leaders know where they're headed, but they might not ever see it super, super clearly.

所以，火炬手，我们打电话的原因是领导者知道他们的前进方向，但他们可能永远不会非常非常清楚地看到它。

And we chose a torch because a torch, if you're in a cave and you have a torch, you only see about five, eight feet around you, but it's enough to dissipate the fear of the people following you in.

我们选择了火把，因为火把，如果你在一个山洞里，你拿着火把，你只能看到周围五、八英尺的地方，但这足以驱散跟随你进去的人的恐惧。

And so nobody sees the future clearly.

所以没有人能清楚地看到未来。

Nobody has that kind of level skill.

没有人具备这种水平的技能。

All we know is I need to traverse this direction to be at the right place in the future so all my staff is safe, all are, we stay a leader in the industry.

我们所知道的是，我需要沿着这个方向走下去，以便在未来处于正确的位置，这样我所有的员工都是安全的，我们仍然是行业的领导者。

That's all I know.

我只知道这些。

And as we start to head there, there's these moments of communication you need to do, which is, hey everyone, here's the dream.

当我们开始走向那里时，你需要进行一些沟通，也就是说，大家好，这就是梦想。

Here's where we're headed.

这就是我们要去的地方。

That's the dream phase.

那是梦想阶段。

Nancy Duarte: Then there's this moment where they either choose to jump in and go with you or they choose not to.

南希·杜阿尔特：然后就到了这个时刻，他们要么选择加入并和你一起去，要么选择不这么做。

You could talk about Frodo like Sam and only a few hobbits followed him.

你可以像山姆一样谈论佛罗多，但只有少数霍比特人追随他。

And so it's like people select to commit this journey.

所以就像人们选择踏上这段旅程一样。

That's the beginning of your movement.

这就是你运动的开始。

But then the middle is the messy middle of a story.

但中间是故事的混乱中间。

We call it the fight and climb phase.

我们称之为战斗和攀登阶段。

So, what happens is they commit to your idea, they commit to your program, your project, and they're like enthused at first.

所以，发生的事情是他们致力于你的想法，他们致力于你的计划，你的项目，他们一开始就很热情。

And then they go into the state of, oh my God, this is harder than I thought.

然后他们就会陷入这样的状态：天哪，这比我想象的要难。

It's a long slog.

这是一个漫长的过程。

This climb is getting exhausted.

这次爬山已经很累了。

I don't know if I have this much fight in me to make this all work, not fight with each other, but like, oh my God, I'm having to overcome this roadblock and that roadblock and we have to go get that budget.

我不知道我是否有这么多的斗争来让这一切顺利进行，而不是互相争斗，但是就像，天哪，我必须克服这个障碍和那个障碍，我们必须去获得那个预算。

Nancy Duarte: So, it's just, it's like a fight, climb, fight, climb, fight, climb.

南希·杜阿尔特：所以，这就像一场战斗，攀登，战斗，攀登，战斗，攀登。

And then ultimately you arrive.

然后最终你到达了。

Each one of those five phases you need to use speeches, stories, ceremonies and symbols at each phase to give the people traveling with you the emotional fuel they need to keep going, to keep seeing that idea become realized.

这五个阶段中的每一个阶段，你都需要在每个阶段使用演讲、故事、仪式和符号，为与你同行的人们提供他们继续前进所需的情感燃料，以不断看到这个想法成为现实。

And it literally is about fueling the right emotions with speeches, stories, ceremonies, and symbols while you're moving people toward a bigger initiative.

从字面上看，它是通过演讲、故事、仪式和符号来激发正确的情绪，同时推动人们采取更大的举措。

So, it's bigger than just one presentation, it's multiple presentations, multiple stories, multiple ceremonies.

因此，它不仅仅是一场演讲，而是多次演讲、多个故事、多个仪式。

So, I loved that book.

所以，我很喜欢那本书。

People are really feeding off of it right now because leading change has been nonstop.

人们现在确实从中受益，因为领导变革是不间断的。

It's just been change, change, change the last especially few years.

最近几年尤其是变化、变化、变化。

Lenny: Change is the only constant like they say.

莱尼：正如他们所说，变化是唯一不变的。

Lenny: I really like this metaphor of the torch giving you a sense of, as a leader, you can see some portion around you, but you're not going to see the entire cave necessarily.

莱尼：我真的很喜欢火炬这个比喻，它给你一种感觉，作为领导者，你可以看到你周围的某些部分，但你不一定会看到整个洞穴。

That is really interesting.

这真的很有趣。

Maybe a final question very tactically is I give an interview where you shared that you had kind of two videos, one where it's very informal, you're just standing in front of whiteboard in jeans or something, just talking about some about data, I think in presentations.

也许非常战术性的最后一个问题是，我接受了一次采访，您在其中分享了您有两个视频，其中一个非常非正式，您只是穿着牛仔裤或其他东西站在白板前，只是谈论一些有关数据的内容，我认为是在演示中。

And then you had a similar video where it was very well constructed, high production value, and the informal video did a lot better.

然后你有一个类似的视频，它的制作非常好，制作价值很高，而且非正式视频做得更好。

Is that something you're seeing?

这是你看到的吗？

Just that kind of content ends up being more successful and why do you think that is?

正是这种内容最终会更加成功，您认为这是为什么？

Nancy Duarte: I think video content, production quality now isn't the expectation for it being high quality.

Nancy Duarte：我认为现在的视频内容、制作质量并不是人们所期望的高质量。

It's just completely shifted over the last five, eight years or so as everyone's an expert and can show up as an expert.

在过去五、八年左右的时间里，情况发生了彻底的转变，因为每个人都是专家，并且可以以专家的身份出现。

There's a big difference to me about showing up as a keynoter, which is like, I'm going to stand, I'm going to look right.

作为主讲人出现对我来说有很大的不同，就像，我要站起来，我要看起来正确。

I'm going to have this eye contact, I'm going to nail it.

我要进行眼神交流，我要把它钉牢。

My slides are gorgeous, I'm driving the industry.

我的幻灯片非常漂亮，我正在推动这个行业。

And for people to think that our explanations of things needs to be done as a stand and deliver keynote, that's just not true.

人们认为我们对事物的解释需要作为一个立场并发表主题演讲，但事实并非如此。

So, I experimented with that and I had some videos I had done, and one of them, like you said, was me looking in the camera.

所以，我对此进行了实验，我制作了一些视频，其中一个，就像你说的，是我看着镜头。

I even had HD makeup, a film crew.

我什至还做了高清化妆，还有一个摄制组。

I was well lit, I looked amazing.

我的光线很好，我看起来棒极了。

I mean, I did look amazing and it was polished.

我的意思是，我看起来确实很棒，而且很精致。

Nancy Duarte: I delivered it really well.

南希·杜阿尔特：我表达得非常好。

And then I thought, because on LinkedIn I post a lot, that's where my primary channel is, and I thought what would happen if I just posted a rando shot of me?

然后我想，因为我在 LinkedIn 上发了很多帖子，这就是我的主要渠道，我想如果我只是发布一张我的随机照片会发生什么？

And I'm maybe airing on a little bit like orange, I look a little Trumpian, a little bit orange.

我可能在播出时有点像橙色，我看起来有点特朗普式，有点橙色。

It's not color corrected, but it's super informative, really full of information.

它没有经过色彩校正，但信息量非常大，信息量非常大。

And that was my highest viewed video so far.

这是迄今为止我观看次数最多的视频。

And I realized that it's like people want the content and we do as a presentation company, I have to nail it maybe more than others, but it doesn't have to be fully video edited, infographics spinning, swooshing things forward and swooshing things back.

我意识到，就像人们想要内容一样，而我们作为一家演示公司所做的，我可能比其他人需要更多地钉住它，但它不必完全视频编辑，信息图表旋转，向前推进和向后推进。

Nancy Duarte: That kind of nature of it is not necessary to get the message across.

南希·杜阿尔特：这种性质并不是传达信息所必需的。

And so we actually have a whole process and program we're rolling out where you're going to see a lot more video from us, partially from that insight, but partially because my team, I have a team of experts, they have a lot of great things to share, and so I'm trying to give them, I'm trying to make it be like Duarte does not equal Nancy Duarte.

所以我们实际上有一个完整的流程和计划，我们正在推出，你会看到更多来自我们的视频，部分来自于这种洞察力，但部分是因为我的团队，我有一个专家团队，他们有很多很棒的东西可以分享，所以我试图给他们，我试图让杜阿尔特不等于南希·杜阿尔特。

I'm trying to make it so it's like so many experts work at Duarte, you got to watch any video from any of them is where we're moving at Duarte.

我正在努力做到这一点，就像有很多专家在杜阿尔特工作一样，你必须观看他们中任何一个人的视频，这就是我们在杜阿尔特搬迁的地方。

They're freaks of brilliance and just experts.

他们是才华横溢的怪人，也是专家。

They're world class experts.

他们是世界级的专家。

So, that's what we're trying to do.

所以，这就是我们正在努力做的事情。

Lenny: I feel like you have a similar challenge to me where I named my newsletter, Lenny's Newsletter.

莱尼：我觉得你也面临着与我类似的挑战，我将我的时事通讯命名为莱尼的时事通讯。

Lenny: Yeah, can never be anyone else.

莱尼：是的，永远不可能是其他人。

It's a challenge, but yeah, don't know, it worked out.

这是一个挑战，但是，是的，不知道，它成功了。

Okay.

好的。

Actually, real final question before we get to a very exciting lightning round.

实际上，在我们进入非常激动人心的闪电回合之前，这是真正的最后一个问题。

Have you seen examples of product managers specifically telling really good stories?

你见过产品经理专门讲好故事的例子吗？

Nancy Duarte: The product management process has multiple phase.

Nancy Duarte：产品管理流程有多个阶段。

There's the creative explorative process all the way through to getting it produced.

从创作到制作，整个过程都是创造性的探索过程。

And I think story can take you along in each phase.

我认为故事可以带领你度过每个阶段。

So, there's example, which I read about, I wasn't actually even part of, but Brian Chesky at Airbnb, there was a whole article where he unpacked this moment in their product development cycle where they decided they would take a walk in the shoes of their customer and they hired a Pixar illustrator to illustrate each scene as the team's like, okay, okay, they said this is her name.

所以，有一个例子，我读到过，实际上我什至不是其中的一部分，但是 Airbnb 的 Brian Chesky，有一篇完整的文章，他在他们的产品开发周期中解开了这个时刻，他们决定站在客户的角度思考，他们聘请了一位皮克斯插画师来说明每个场景，因为团队就像，好吧，好吧，他们说这是她的名字。

And they were like, okay, what happens?

他们说，好吧，会发生什么？

Her alarm goes off.

她的闹钟响了。

Okay, what happens next?

好吧，接下来会发生什么？

What happens next?

接下来会发生什么？

Okay, now she's decided she needs to book something.

好吧，现在她决定需要预订一些东西。

What does she do?

她是做什么的？

She wants to do that.

她想这么做。

They realized from this little walk in the shoes of their customer just this day in the life, which is a classic storytelling method for any product, they realized that they had their strategy wrong, that they needed to move as soon as possible to a mobile first strategy.

他们意识到，就在这一天，他们站在客户的角度思考，这是任何产品的经典讲故事方法，他们意识到自己的策略是错误的，他们需要尽快转向移动优先策略。

Nancy Duarte: And it was just because they actually thought about, okay.

南希·杜阿尔特：这只是因为他们确实想过，好吧。

She goes, brushes their teeth, they do this.

她去给他们刷牙，他们就这样做。

They were just literally walking through the life of their ideal customer and that was when they realized they had it all messed up.

他们刚刚经历了理想客户的生活，就在那时他们意识到自己把一切都搞砸了。

But the other phases, after all this work people put into product and the making of the product and the managing of pushing it through.

但在其他阶段，在所有这些工作之后，人们投入到产品、产品的制造以及推动产品的管理中。

We have a large client that makes shoes or athletic things.

我们有一个生产鞋子或运动用品的大客户。

I love telling stories, but I can't say this.

我喜欢讲故事，但我不能讲这个。

And there's this moment where we get brought in and could you please train our product people in story?

就在这个时刻，我们被引入，您能用故事来培训我们的产品人员吗？

We're like, "What's the big problem?" They're like, "They'll spend a year or two on a shoe and be like, chunk, put it on the table.

我们会想，“最大的问题是什么？”他们会说，“他们会花一两年时间在一双鞋上，然后把它放在桌子上。

And they're like, what do you have to say about it?" They're like, "It's red." And it's like all these years of investment, all these years, they couldn't unpack any sort of story or any sort of reason or even their passion for why they chose red.

他们会问，你对此有什么要说的？”他们说：“它是红色的。”就像这么多年的投资，这么多年，他们无法解开任何类型的故事或任何类型的原因，甚至他们对为什么选择红色的热情。

Nancy Duarte: And it was like, here's my shoe, it's red.

南希·杜阿尔特：就像，这是我的鞋子，它是红色的。

And so this ability to move things along by adding meaning or why and then wrapping it in a story actually can get a product chosen or rejected or there's just so many examples of different spaces in the product cycle that could benefit from a really well told story from, like I said, how the products innovate in the roadmap all the way through to what gets accepted.

因此，这种通过添加意义或原因然后将其包装在故事中来推动事情发展的能力实际上可以让产品被选择或拒绝，或者产品周期中不同空间的很多例子可以从一个非常好的故事中受益，就像我说的，产品如何在路线图中进行创新，一直到被接受。

And then the big reveal, you think about even all the big Apple launches, it's about a big product reveal.

然后就是大揭晓，你想想苹果所有的大型发布会，都是关于大产品的揭晓。

It's about revealing this thing that had been hidden for so long and it's another moment to tell amazing stories.

这是为了揭示这个隐藏了很长时间的事情，这是讲述精彩故事的另一个时刻。

So, that's kind of a little bit of an insight on the product side of how to use story.

所以，这是对如何使用故事的产品方面的一点见解。

Lenny: The Airbnb example is an awesome example.

Lenny：Airbnb 的例子是一个很棒的例子。

It's all true.

这都是真的。

When I joined Airbnb is actually right there in the process of doing that.

当我加入 Airbnb 时，我实际上正在做这件事。

Lenny: And they ended up drawing these key frames of the journey as you described, and they put it right in the center of the office.

莱尼：正如你所描述的，他们最终绘制了旅程的这些关键帧，并将其放在办公室的中央。

Here's the journey of a host and a guest that's like 12 frames of that journey.

这是主人和客人的旅程，就像旅程的 12 个框架。

And that actually became the strategy of the company is let's pick six of these frames and make them awesome.

实际上，这已成为公司的战略，让我们挑选其中六个框架并使它们变得很棒。

And that's what we're going to do.

这就是我们要做的。

Lenny: Make booking experience awesome.

Lenny：让预订体验变得更棒。

Make the arrival experience awesome.

让抵达体验变得美妙。

So, there's a lot of truth to that.

所以，这有很多道理。

Nancy Duarte: And it was visualized, right?

南希·杜阿尔特：它是可视化的，对吧？

The vision was visualized like what you're saying we're headed in the future.

这个愿景被形象化，就像你所说的我们未来的发展方向。

And it was super clear.

而且非常清晰。

I love that story.

我喜欢那个故事。

So cool you were there.

你在那里真是太酷了。

Lenny: Yeah, it was very cool.

莱尼：是的，这非常酷。

And they actually were very mobile.

他们实际上非常机动。

You could grab one of these drawings and bring it to your desk and how are we going to make this moment better this week?

您可以拿起其中一张图画并将其带到您的办公桌上，本周我们将如何让这一时刻变得更好？

Lenny: And it was actually indeed, Pixar storyboard artist that they hired for a year.

莱尼：事实上，他们聘请了皮克斯故事板艺术家一年。

That was his job.

那是他的工作。

Draw these key frames.

绘制这些关键帧。

Lenny: And it connects so directly with your point about empathy.

莱尼：它与你关于同理心的观点直接相关。

That was the epitome of empathy.

这就是同理心的缩影。

Here's what the guest and hosts are going through, and here's where we can do better.

这是客人和主人正在经历的事情，也是我们可以做得更好的地方。

Nancy Duarte: Yeah, it's amazing.

南希·杜阿尔特：是的，太棒了。

Yeah, it does tie together.

是的，它确实联系在一起。

Lenny: If folks want to look this up, by the way, we'll link in the show notes.

莱尼：顺便说一句，如果人们想查找这个，我们将链接到演出笔记中。

If you just Google Snow White Airbnb, you can watch a video of how they all kind of came about this.

如果你用谷歌搜索白雪公主 Airbnb，你就可以观看一段视频，了解他们是如何实现这一目标的。

Well, with that, we've reached our very exciting lightning round.

好了，至此，我们已经进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。

I've got six questions for you if you're ready.

如果你准备好的话，我有六个问题要问你。

Lenny: What are two or three books that you recommended most to other people?

莱尼：你向其他人推荐最多的两三本书是什么？

Nancy Duarte: I think I always classically recommend the gospels because there's just so much love and groundbreaking thinking there.

南希·杜阿尔特：我想我总是经典地推荐福音书，因为那里有太多的爱和开创性的思想。

And then for people who do wind up taking an interest in story, I think one of the best books, if you want to pick that up, is Chris Vogler's, The Writer's Journey, where he took Joseph Campbell's Hero's Journey, made it 12 Steps, and he was a Disney story analyst.

然后，对于那些最终对故事感兴趣的人来说，我认为最好的书之一（如果你想读的话）是克里斯·沃格勒（Chris Vogler）的《作家之旅》，他在其中借鉴了约瑟夫·坎贝尔（Joseph Campbell）的《英雄之旅》，将其做成了《12步》，他是一名迪士尼故事分析师。

So, it's just really classic body of work that had really helped people get their minds around story and the archetypes.

所以，这是非常经典的作品，确实帮助人们了解故事和原型。

Lenny: What is a favorite recent movie or TV show?

莱尼：最近最喜欢的电影或电视节目是什么？

Nancy Duarte: It's my little sinful pleasure.

南希·杜阿尔特：这是我小小的罪恶的快乐。

It's way into K drama, Korean drama.

这就是K剧，韩剧。

Don't even ask me how, but I'm way into that.

甚至别问我怎么做，但我很喜欢。

I've seen almost all of them now.

我现在几乎都看过了。

I'm at the bottom of the barrel of them.

我处于他们的底部。

Nancy Duarte: No, my husband just watched one.

南希·杜阿尔特：没有，我丈夫刚刚看了一部。

It's called Business Proposal, and he watched it with me and he's like, oh no, now I'm going to be hooked too.

这部电影叫《商业提案》，他和我一起看了，他说，哦不，现在我也会着迷的。

They're just real.

它们是真实的。

They're just cute as a button.

它们就像按钮一样可爱。

And they have a longer arc.

而且它们的弧线更长。

They're like an epic length tail.

它们就像一条史诗般长度的尾巴。

They drop in 12 part seasons or one season 12.

它们分为 12 季或 12 季一季。

Anyway, don't even get me started.

无论如何，别让我开始。

It sounds dumb, because I like the epic tales and the dramas, but they're cute.

这听起来很愚蠢，因为我喜欢史诗故事和戏剧，但它们很可爱。

Lenny: This is great.

莱尼：这太棒了。

Getting very real.

变得非常真实。

What is a favorite interview question that you like to ask people that you're hiring?

您最喜欢问正在招聘的人的面试问题是什么？

Nancy Duarte: Oh, favorite interview question.

南希·杜阿尔特：哦，最喜欢的采访问题。

We ask a lot about who they are.

我们经常询问他们是谁。

So, we use psychometrics a lot here, and we really understand who they are, and we actually ask people to tell a story.

所以，我们在这里大量使用心理测量学，我们真正了解他们是谁，我们实际上要求人们讲一个故事。

And if that's uncomfortable or those psychometrics are uncomfortable, they're not really a fit, because we are a systemic story culture, and we define empathy at the company as know yourself, accept yourself, kind of work on yourself, and then adapt to others.

如果这让人不舒服，或者那些心理测量数据让人不舒服，那么它们并不真正适合，因为我们是一种系统性的故事文化，我们将公司的同理心定义为了解自己、接受自己、为自己努力，然后适应他人。

So, if people aren't open to really understanding how they show up then and then adapt and change under our care, then we don't hire them.

因此，如果人们不愿意真正了解他们当时的表现，然后在我们的照顾下适应和改变，那么我们就不会雇用他们。

Lenny: What is a favorite product you've recently discovered that you love?

莱尼：您最近发现的最喜欢的产品是什么？

Nancy Duarte: I'm excited about a tool I just paid for last week.

Nancy Duarte：我对上周刚购买的工具感到很兴奋。

It's called writer.com.

它的名字叫writer.com。

So, it's built on multiple language models and including, it's going to be trained on our own, all my IP, all my books, every blog post, it'll learn the voice and it'll use my own kind of language model to help us write faster.

所以，它建立在多种语言模型的基础上，包括，它将由我们自己进行训练，我所有的 IP、我所有的书、每一篇博客文章，它将学习语音，并将使用我自己的语言模型来帮助我们更快地写作。

So, we put really good prompts in and we get a really good product out.

因此，我们加入了非常好的提示，并得到了非常好的产品。

So, I'm super excited about that.

所以，我对此感到非常兴奋。

Lenny: I'm actually an investor in that company, so this is great to hear.

莱尼：我实际上是那家公司的投资者，所以很高兴听到这个消息。

Lenny: Writer.com.

莱尼：Writer.com。

What is something relatively minor you've changed in your approach to developing presentations that has had a big impact on your ability to execute and get them out?

在制作演示文稿的方法中，有哪些相对较小的改变对您执行和演示演示文稿的能力产生了重大影响？

Nancy Duarte: Yeah.

南希·杜阿尔特：是的。

I think there's the biggest roadblock for so long that made things painful was the edit cycles.

我认为长期以来让事情变得痛苦的最大障碍是编辑周期。

How do we do a round with a client?

我们如何与客户进行一轮洽谈？

Then you have multiple version, then you have version control.

然后你就有了多个版本，然后你就有了版本控制。

So, we've come up with this annotation system, so everyone on a project knows exactly the status of that slide, and there's no way really to check slides in and out.

因此，我们提出了这个注释系统，以便项目中的每个人都确切地知道该幻灯片的状态，并且无法真正检查幻灯片的进出。

And so we've come up with this amazing, beautiful, very visual process where everyone knows the exact status of the slide, and it's really easy.

因此，我们想出了这个令人惊叹的、美丽的、非常直观的过程，每个人都知道幻灯片的确切状态，而且非常简单。

You could put it in thumbnail mode and be like, hmm, we're 80% complete.

您可以将其置于缩略图模式，然后说，嗯，我们已完成 80%。

Everyone's going to focus on just these two things.

大家都会关注这两件事。

So, that part of the process, especially enterprise at scale where 20 or 30 people are contributors to a deck.

因此，流程的这一部分，尤其是有 20 或 30 人为套牌贡献者的规模企业。

That process we made is the clients are really liking it.

我们所做的这个过程是客户非常喜欢的。

Lenny: To leave people with one final tip to give better presentations.

莱尼：给人们最后一个提示，以便他们能够做出更好的演示。

What would that be?

那会是什么？

Nancy Duarte: To become a better presenter, pick a topic you are passionate about, something where you're like, oh my gosh, I've got to see this happen.

南希·杜阿尔特（Nancy Duarte）：要成为一名更好的演讲者，请选择一个您感兴趣的主题，一个您喜欢的主题，天哪，我必须看到这一切发生。

And pick that topic and be so passionate about it.

然后选择那个主题并对此充满热情。

Work on that talk or stand up at a volunteer thing and really work on something that makes you feel passionate.

继续做演讲或做志愿者，真正做一些让你感到充满激情的事情。

And then in the future when you're presenting something that you're not passionate about, everything you learned will apply to a business presentation, but you're going to have that feeling.

然后在未来，当你展示一些你不热衷的东西时，你学到的一切都将适用于商业演示，但你会有那种感觉。

You're going to know what it's like to present from your soul and from a place of passion and the great presenters tap into that passion point and pull from that, and that's what makes them a great presenter on other topics, that they might not be as passionate about.

你会知道从你的灵魂和充满激情的地方进行演讲是什么样的，伟大的演讲者会利用那个激情点并从中汲取灵感，这就是他们成为其他主题的优秀演讲者的原因，而他们可能不那么热衷。

Lenny: Nancy, I so appreciate you making time for this.

莱尼：南希，我非常感谢你抽出时间来做这件事。

It's been an honor.

这是一种荣幸。

Lenny: You're amazing.

莱尼：你太棒了。

Two final questions.

最后两个问题。

Where can folks find you if they'd like to reach out, and how can listeners be useful to you?

如果人们想要联系您，可以在哪里找到您？听众如何对您有用？

Nancy Duarte: Oh, they can find me at duarte.com.

南希·杜阿尔特：哦，他们可以在 duarte.com 上找到我。

There's also a duarte.com/nancy where I've got a ton of free stuff where you could find a lot of the things I've talked about.

还有一个 duarte.com/nancy，在那里我有大量免费的东西，你可以在那里找到我谈到的很多东西。

I'm on Twitter @NancyDuarte, and I do connect to everyone who connects to me on LinkedIn, which is kind of fun.

我在 Twitter 上@NancyDuarte，并且我确实与在 LinkedIn 上联系我的每个人建立了联系，这很有趣。

So, I think, how could they be useful to me?

那么，我想，它们对我有什么用呢？

I think it will cure so many problems if everyone became a really good communicator, so you can help me by working hard on your communication skills, working hard on your clarity, and making everyone around you much happier people.

我认为，如果每个人都成为一个真正优秀的沟通者，那么很多问题就会解决，所以你可以通过努力提高你的沟通技巧，努力提高你的清晰度，让你周围的每个人都变得更加快乐来帮助我。

Lenny: What a beautiful way to end it.

莱尼：多么美妙的结束方式啊。

Nancy, again, thank you so much for being here.

南希，再次非常感谢您来到这里。

Nancy Duarte: Oh, you're amazing.

南希·杜阿尔特：哦，你太棒了。

Thanks for having me.

谢谢你有我。

Lenny: All right.

莱尼：好吧。

Bye everyone.

再见大家。

Thank you so much for listening.

非常感谢您的聆听。

If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.

如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.

您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。