How Palantir built the ultimate founder factory | Nabeel S. Qureshi (founder, writer, ex-Palantir)

Lenny Rachitsky: 30% of PMs that leave Palantir start a company.

Lenny Rachitsky：离开 Palantir 的产品经理中有 30% 创办了公司。

Just give us a picture of what the people are like.

请给我们一幅关于人们是什么样子的图片。

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: I feel like they screened really hard for a few traits in particular.

库雷希：我觉得他们对某些特征进行了非常严格的筛选。

One is like very independent-minded people who weren't afraid to push back.

一种就像非常独立思想的人，不害怕反抗。

Two is people with broader intellectual interests.

二是具有更广泛知识兴趣的人。

Lenny Rachitsky: What's the difference between, say, a PM at Palantir versus a traditional PM?

Lenny Rachitsky：Palantir 的产品经理与传统产品经理之间有什么区别？

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: They were extremely careful about only making people PMs who had first proven themselves out as forward deployed engineers.

库雷希：他们非常谨慎，只让那些首先证明自己是前沿部署工程师的人担任产品经理。

You basically could not become a PM any other way.

基本上你不可能以任何其他方式成为产品经理。

There's two types of engineer at Palantir.

Palantir 有两种类型的工程师。

So, there's one that works on the core product and they're a traditional software engineer.

因此，有一个人致力于核心产品，他们是一名传统的软件工程师。

There was a different type of engineer which you sent into the field.

您派了一位不同类型的工程师到现场。

You would spend maybe Monday to Thursday and you would actually go into the building where the customer worked and you would work alongside them.

您可能会在周一到周四的时间里，实际上会进入客户工作的大楼，并与他们一起工作。

You would literally get a desk there and so, that engineer became known as a forward deployed engineer.

你实际上会在那里得到一张桌子，因此，该工程师被称为前沿部署工程师。

Lenny Rachitsky: What's something that you believe that most other people don't?

Lenny Rachitsky：有什么事情是你认为但大多数人不认为的？

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: I think this is a somewhat contrarian view within tech.

库雷希：我认为这是科技界的一种逆向观点。

Lenny Rachitsky: Today, my guest is Nabeel Qureshi.

Lenny Rachitsky：今天，我的客人是 Nabeel Qureshi。

Nabeel is a founder, a writer, a researcher, and an engineer.

Nabeel 是一位创始人、作家、研究员和工程师。

He was recently a visiting scholar researching AI policy at the Mercatus Center alongside Tyler Cowen.

他最近是莫卡特斯中心的访问学者，与泰勒·考恩一起研究人工智能政策。

At one point, he worked with the National Institute of Health and major clinical centers to create the largest medical data set in the world.

他曾一度与美国国立卫生研究院和主要临床中心合作创建了世界上最大的医疗数据集。

He worked at the Bank of England for a bit.

他曾在英格兰银行工作过一段时间。

He was founding member and VP of Business Development at GoCardless, one of Europe's biggest financial technology unicorns.

他是欧洲最大的金融科技独角兽公司之一 GoCardless 的创始成员兼业务开发副总裁。

Lenny Rachitsky: And most related to the topic of this conversation, Nabeel spent almost eight years at Palantir as a forward deployed engineer working on public health projects with US federal agencies, including public health services during the COVID-19 response and applied AI in drug discovery.

Lenny Rachitsky：与本次对话主题最相关的是，Nabeel 在 Palantir 工作了近八年，担任前沿部署工程师，与美国联邦机构合作开展公共卫生项目，包括应对 COVID-19 期间的公共卫生服务以及在药物发现中应用人工智能。

Whether you are a fan of Palantir or hate everything that they do, they are an important and fast-growing company that is pumping out incredible product leaders, as you'll hear more than any other company in the world.

无论您是 Palantir 的粉丝还是讨厌他们所做的一切，他们都是一家重要且快速发展的公司，正在培养令人难以置信的产品领导者，因为您会比世界上任何其他公司听到更多的声音。

So, it is worth studying and understanding.

所以，值得研究和理解。

Lenny Rachitsky: I've never heard an in-depth conversation digging into how they operate, build product, hire, and were able to scale from a primarily services business to a software business.

Lenny Rachitsky：我从未听过深入探讨他们如何运营、构建产品、招聘以及如何从主要的服务业务扩展到软件业务的深入对话。

So, I am very excited to bring you this inside look.

所以，我很高兴为您带来这个内部观察。

In our conversation, we go deep into what the heck does Palantir even do, why getting good at managing lots of data is an underappreciated secret to their success, a look at the unique forward deployed engineer role that they innovated, and what other companies can borrow from their insights here.

在我们的对话中，我们深入探讨了 Palantir 到底做了什么，为什么擅长管理大量数据是他们成功的一个未被充分重视的秘密，看看他们创新的独特的前沿部署工程师角色，以及其他公司可以从他们的见解中借鉴什么。

Also, how they hire and how they build amazing product leaders, plus a ton of advice on talking to customers, building products, and starting companies.

此外，他们如何招聘以及如何培养出色的产品领导者，以及大量有关与客户交谈、构建产品和创办公司的建议。

Lenny Rachitsky: If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube.

Lenny Rachitsky：如果您喜欢这个播客，请不要忘记订阅并在您最喜欢的播客应用程序或 YouTube 中关注它。

Also, if you become an annual subscriber of my newsletter, you get a bunch of amazing products for free for a year, including Superhuman, Notion, Linear, Perplexity, Granola and more.

此外，如果您成为我的时事通讯的年度订阅者，您可以免费获得一年的一系列令人惊叹的产品，包括 Super human、Notion、Linear、Perplexity、Granola 等等。

Check it out at lennysnewsletter.com and click Bundle.

请访问 lennysnewsletter.com 查看并单击“捆绑”。

With that, I bring you Nabeel Qureshi.: This episode is brought to you by WorkOS.

接下来，我为您带来 Nabeel Qureshi。：本集由 WorkOS 为您带来。

If you're building a SaaS app, at some point, your customers will start asking for enterprise features like SAML authentication and SCIM provisioning.

如果您正在构建 SaaS 应用程序，那么在某些时候，您的客户将开始要求提供 SAML 身份验证和 SCIM 配置等企业功能。

That's where WorkOS comes in, making it fast and painless to add enterprise features to your app.

这就是 WorkOS 的用武之地，它可以快速、轻松地将企业功能添加到您的应用程序中。

Their APIs are easy to understand so that you can ship quickly and get back to building other features.

他们的 API 易于理解，因此您可以快速交付并继续构建其他功能。

Today, hundreds of companies are already powered by WorkOS, including ones you probably know like Vercel, Webflow and Loom.

如今，数百家公司已经由 WorkOS 提供支持，其中包括您可能知道的 Vercel、Webflow 和 Loom 等公司。

With that, I bring you Nabeel Qureshi.: WorkOS also recently acquired Warrant, the fine-grained authorization service.

接下来，我为您带来 Nabeel Qureshi：WorkOS 最近还收购了细粒度授权服务 Warrant。

Warrant's product is based on a groundbreaking authorization system called Zanzibar, which was originally designed for Google to power Google Docs and YouTube.

Warrant 的产品基于名为 Zanzibar 的突破性授权系统，该系统最初是为 Google 设计的，旨在为 Google Docs 和 YouTube 提供支持。

This enables fast authorization checks at enormous scale while maintaining a flexible model that can be adapted to even the most complex use cases.

这可以实现大规模的快速授权检查，同时保持灵活的模型，甚至可以适应最复杂的用例。

With that, I bring you Nabeel Qureshi.: If you're currently looking to build role-based access control or other enterprise features like single sign-on, SCIM or user management, you should consider WorkOS.

接下来，我为您带来 Nabeel Qureshi：如果您当前正在寻求构建基于角色的访问控制或其他企业功能（例如单点登录、SCIM 或用户管理），您应该考虑 WorkOS。

It's a drop-in replacement for auth zero and supports up to one million monthly active users for free.

它是 auth Zero 的直接替代品，并免费支持多达 100 万的每月活跃用户。

Check it out at WorkOS.com to learn more.

请访问 WorkOS.com 了解更多信息。

That's WorkOS.com.

这就是 WorkOS.com。

With that, I bring you Nabeel Qureshi.: This episode is brought to you by Attio, the AI native CRM.

接下来，我为您带来 Nabeel Qureshi。：本集由 AI 原生 CRM Attio 为您带来。

Attio is built to scale with your business from day one.

Attio 从第一天起就根据您的业务进行扩展。

Connect your email and calendar and Attio instantly builds a CRM that matches your business model with all of your company's contacts and interactions enriched with actionable insights.

连接您的电子邮件和日历，Attio 会立即构建一个 CRM，将您的业务模型与您公司的所有联系人和互动相匹配，并提供可操作的见解。

Sync in your product usage, billing info, or any other data sources and Attio's flexible data model will handle it all without any rigid templates or workarounds.

同步您的产品使用情况、账单信息或任何其他数据源，Attio 灵活的数据模型将处理所有这些，无需任何严格的模板或解决方法。

With that, I bring you Nabeel Qureshi.: With Attio, AI isn't just a feature, it's the foundation.

接下来，我为您带来 Nabeel Qureshi：对于 Attio，人工智能不仅仅是一个功能，它是基础。

You can do things like instantly prospect and route leads with research agents, get real-time insights from AI using customer conversations, and build powerful AI automations for your most complex workflows.

您可以执行诸如立即与研究代理寻找潜在客户和路由线索、使用客户对话从 AI 中获取实时见解以及为最复杂的工作流程构建强大的 AI 自动化等操作。

Industry leaders like Flatfile, Replicate and Modal are already experiencing what's next for CRM.

Flatfile、Replicate 和 Modal 等行业领导者已经在体验 CRM 的下一步发展。

Go to attio.com/lenny to get 15% off your first year.

访问 attio.com/lenny 即可享受第一年 15% 的折扣。

That's attio.com/lenny.

那是 attio.com/lenny。

With that, I bring you Nabeel Qureshi.: Nabeel, thank you so much for being here.

接下来，我为您带来 Nabeel Qureshi。：Nabeel，非常感谢您来到这里。

Welcome to the podcast.

欢迎来到播客。

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: Thanks, Lenny.

库雷希：谢谢，莱尼。

Glad to be here.

很高兴来到这里。

Lenny Rachitsky: In our chat today, I want to zero in on a post that you recently wrote where you shared your reflections on your time at Palantir.

Lenny Rachitsky：在今天的聊天中，我想把注意力集中在您最近写的一篇文章中，您在其中分享了对 Palantir 时光的感想。

You spent something, maybe just under eight years there.

你在那里度过了一些时光，也许不到八年。

The reason I'm really interested in Palantir is I've been doing a bunch of research recently looking into which companies hire the best product managers and create the best product managers, and Palantir just keeps coming up over and over in the work that I'm doing.

我对 Palantir 真正感兴趣的原因是我最近做了很多研究，了解哪些公司雇用最好的产品经理并培养最好的产品经理，而 Palantir 在我正在做的工作中不断出现。

Lenny Rachitsky: So, I'll share a few stats real quick.

Lenny Rachitsky：那么，我将快速分享一些统计数据。

I looked at which companies produce the most founders, especially out of their PM team, and Palantir is, by far, number one.

我研究了哪些公司产生了最多的创始人，尤其是 PM 团队的创始人，Palantir 到目前为止排名第一。

30% of PMs that leave Palantir start a company.

30% 离开 Palantir 的产品经理创办了一家公司。

And number two is 18% and that's Intercom.

位居第二的是 Intercom，占 18%。

So, that stat, I looked at which companies PMs that leave get immediately promoted in their next role, Palantir is number one of all companies in the world.

因此，根据该统计数据，我研究了哪些公司的 PM 离职后会立即晋升到下一个职位，Palantir 是世界上所有公司中排名第一的。

Lenny Rachitsky: I looked at which companies' PMs become the first PM at another startup that they join, Palantir is number two in the world.

Lenny Rachitsky：我研究了哪些公司的 PM 成为他们加入的另一家初创公司的第一位 PM，Palantir 是世界第二。

And then I looked at which companies alumni PMs become heads of Product down later in their career, Palantir is number three in the world.

然后我查看了哪些公司的校友 PM 在其职业生涯后期成为产品负责人，Palantir 排名世界第三。

Also, just the company is doing extremely well.

此外，该公司的表现也非常好。

It's worth, I think, something like $200 billion these days.

我认为现在它的价值约为 2000 亿美元。

So, there's a lot to learn from Palantir.

所以，Palantir 有很多值得学习的地方。

Lenny Rachitsky: I actually want to start a question that I imagine every employee at Palantir constantly gets that, and I still don't think people totally have an answer in their head.

Lenny Rachitsky：我实际上想提出一个问题，我想 Palantir 的每个员工都会经常遇到这个问题，但我仍然不认为人们脑子里完全有答案。

What does Palantir do?

Palantir 是做什么的？

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: That's a great question.

库雷希：这是一个很好的问题。

You started off with an easy one, Lenny.

你从一个简单的开始，莱尼。

So, Palantir is, the way I describe it, is they achieve outcomes for their customers very tactically.

所以，按照我的描述，Palantir 是他们非常有策略地为客户取得成果。

The way they do that tends to be through a data platform.

他们这样做的方式往往是通过数据平台。

So, they have what I consider to be the world's best data platform, and I can go into what that means in a second.

因此，他们拥有我认为是世界上最好的数据平台，我可以稍后解释这意味着什么。

And then there's a couple of different versions of this.

然后有几个不同的版本。

So, there's one that's optimized for intelligence and defense use cases that one is called Gotham.

因此，有一种针对情报和国防用例进行了优化的产品，称为 Gotham。

And then there's one that's more optimized for commercial use cases and that one's called Foundry.

还有一种更适合商业用例的优化，称为 Foundry。

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: And that's the classic explanation of what they do.

库雷希：这就是他们所做的事情的经典解释。

So, they sell a data platform.

因此，他们出售一个数据平台。

They typically work with very large customers is the other thing.

他们通常与非常大的客户合作是另一回事。

So, it's going to be Fortune 50.

所以，它将成为《财富》50 强。

It's going to be governments around the world.

这将是世界各地的政府。

It's going to be those kinds of customers.

将会是这类客户。

So, that's the capsule answer, but there's lots to unpack in there.

这就是胶囊的答案，但其中还有很多东西需要解开。

Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

Okay, and we're going to touch on a lot of this stuff, including the data piece.

好的，我们将讨论很多此类内容，包括数据片段。

I want to start with talking about just the people and the culture of Palantir.

我想首先谈谈 Palantir 的人和文化。

You shared a bunch of really funny stories of what it's like to come to work and even interview at Palantir.

你分享了很多非常有趣的故事，讲述了在 Palantir 工作甚至面试的感受。

There's a story you shared where because maybe the co-founder, you're walking by and he's chewing ice, and that's some benefits to cognition.

你分享了一个故事，因为也许是联合创始人，你路过时他正在嚼冰，这对认知有一些好处。

Just give us a picture of what the people are like, especially early days Palantir and the culture and how unique it might seem.

请向我们介绍一下人们的情况，尤其是早期的 Palantir 及其文化以及它看起来有多么独特。

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: Yeah, it's definitely, it's an add-a-one company.

库雷希：是的，毫无疑问，这是一家加一公司。

I don't know how else you would start this company if you were not somebody like Peter Thiel.

我不知道如果你不是像 Peter Thiel 这样的人，你还会如何创办这家公司。

And so far as, it seems like there was a point at which they owned a silly fraction of the office space in Palo Alto.

到目前为止，他们似乎曾经在帕洛阿尔托拥有一小部分办公空间。

So, you'd walk around Palo Alto and there would just be Palantir hoodies, Palantir buildings everywhere and so on.

所以，你在帕洛阿尔托周围走走，就会发现 Palantir 连帽衫、Palantir 建筑随处可见，等等。

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: And so, I feel like what happened at some point is they raised a lot of money and they resorted to all these really interesting ways of just getting top talent out of places like Stanford and other top schools and just people who knew the founders who tended to be very interesting intellectual people.

库雷希：所以，我觉得在某个时候发生的事情是，他们筹集了很多资金，并且采取了所有这些非常有趣的方式，从斯坦福大学和其他顶尖学校等地方吸引顶尖人才，以及认识创始人的人，这些人往往是非常有趣的知识分子。

And I feel like they screened really hard for a few traits in particular.

我觉得他们对某些特征进行了非常严格的筛选。

So, I would say one is very independent-minded people, people who weren't afraid to push back, who questioned the frame of everything and thought for themselves and had strong convictions.

所以，我想说，一个人是非常有独立思想的人，他们不害怕反抗，他们质疑一切的框架，独立思考，并且有坚定的信念。

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: Two is just people with broader intellectual interests.

库雷希：两个只是具有更广泛知识兴趣的人。

Karp just released a new book and he's quoting Habermas and all these European intellectuals and just things you don't typically see a tech CEO do.

卡普刚刚出版了一本新书，他引用了哈贝马斯和所有这些欧洲知识分子的观点，以及你通常不会看到科技首席执行官所做的事情。

And so, I think there's that intellectual strand in the company.

所以，我认为公司里有这样的知识分子。

And then yeah, I think three is just people who are very intensely competitive.

是的，我认为三个人都是竞争非常激烈的人。

There's a sort of win at all costs mentality to the company.

公司有一种不惜一切代价取胜的心态。

And so, I think those were the set of traits that were this gravity while in California at a certain time.

所以，我认为这些是在加利福尼亚州某个特定时间具有这种重力的一组特征。

And so, you just had a lot of really fascinating people joining the company at that time.

所以，当时有很多非常有魅力的人加入了公司。

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: The way they screened for this was interesting too.

库雷希：他们的筛选方式也很有趣。

So, for the longest time, they had...

所以，在很长一段时间里，他们...

Everyone does this now, I think, but at the time, it was a little bit rarer, is a founder had to interview you in order for you to receive an offer.

我想现在每个人都会这样做，但在当时，这种情况有点罕见，创始人必须面试你才能让你收到录用通知。

And so, a founder, it could have been Alex Karp, it could have been Stephen Cohen.

因此，作为创始人，可能是亚历克斯·卡普，也可能是斯蒂芬·科恩。

Earlier on, it might have been somebody like Joe Lonsdale, but it was always one of these people.

早些时候，可能是像乔·朗斯代尔这样的人，但总是这些人中的一个。

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: And the interviews were pretty strange.

库雷希：采访非常奇怪。

With Stephen, it would be, you'd be chatting about philosophy for an hour and a half and it would very much just be like he would pick a topic out of thin air.

和斯蒂芬在一起，你们会谈论哲学一个半小时，而他就像凭空挑选一个话题一样。

It was impossible to prepare for, and then he would just go very, very deep and try and test the limits of your understanding.

这是不可能准备的，然后他就会非常非常深入地尝试并测试你理解的极限。

But it would really just be a fun conversation and then if you pass the vibe check, you'd be in.

但这确实只是一次有趣的对话，然后如果你通过了氛围检查，你就会加入。

And so, there was that strong selection mechanism.

因此，就有了强大的选择机制。

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: There was also the question of, I think it might have been Thiel who mentioned this, but he thinks that a lot of the best recruiters in the world or the companies that attract talent, they put out this distinctive bad signal and it has to turn some people off.

库雷希：还有一个问题是，我认为可能是泰尔提到了这一点，但他认为世界上许多最好的招聘人员或吸引人才的公司，他们发出了这种独特的不良信号，这不得不让一些人望而却步。

That's the key of a good, bad signal.

这是信号好坏的关键。

So, I think in the present day, OpenAI and Anthropic, they're both sucking up some of the best talent that you and I know.

所以，我认为在当今，OpenAI 和 Anthropic 都在吸纳你我所认识的一些最优秀的人才。

And I think one way they do do that, and they are sincere in this, but they do really attract people who are almost messianic about the potential of artificial super intelligence and who really believe this is the only thing that matters and it is going to be the biggest thing in the world.

我认为他们这样做的一种方式是，他们对此是真诚的，但他们确实吸引了那些对人工智能的潜力近乎救世主的人，他们真正相信这是唯一重要的事情，而且它将成为世界上最重要的事情。

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: I think Palantir's version of that was that they were quite focused on things like preserving the West.

库雷希：我认为 Palantir 的版本是他们非常专注于保护西方之类的事情。

There was a slogan of Save the Shire, right?

有一个口号“拯救夏尔”，对吗？

So, they were talking about military and defense and intelligence and the importance of that well before everybody else.

因此，他们比其他人更早地谈论军事、国防和情报及其重要性。

And bear in mind, this was during the era when it was social, mobile, local apps.

请记住，这是在社交、移动、本地应用程序盛行的时代。

You had, social media was on the rise.

你有，社交媒体正在兴起。

You had, the hot companies were Facebook and Pinterest and things like that.

你有，热门公司是 Facebook 和 Pinterest 之类的。

And so, this was, at the time, a very strange thing.

所以，这在当时是一件非常奇怪的事情。

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: And so, I think to be drawn to that, you had to look at the other options and say, "Well, this is fine, but what am I really doing in life?" Whereas you had this other place that was like, "Hey, come solve the hardest, messiest problems in the world with us." And I think just at that time, that really drew some really good people.

库雷希：所以，我认为要被这一点所吸引，你必须看看其他选择，然后说：“好吧，这很好，但我在生活中真正在做什么？”而你在另一个地方的感觉就像是，“嘿，来和我们一起解决世界上最困难、最混乱的问题吧。”我认为就在那时，这确实吸引了一些非常优秀的人。

Lenny Rachitsky: We're going to talk about the reasons people don't necessarily like Palantir and the moral question of what they do, but when people look at a company that is like...

Lenny Rachitsky：我们将讨论人们不一定喜欢 Palantir 的原因以及他们所做的事情的道德问题，但是当人们看到一家类似的公司时......

I guess OpenAI, to your point, is a good example where they're just so turned off by maybe their approach.

我想 OpenAI，就你的观点而言，就是一个很好的例子，他们可能只是因为他们的方法而感到厌烦。

What you're missing is that's potentially intentional because it actually draws in the people they really want.

你错过的是这可能是有意的，因为它实际上吸引了他们真正想要的人。

Lenny Rachitsky: It makes me think about, I was involved in creating the core values at Airbnb and something that we learned at going through that process is, when you define the values for your company, it's really important to clarify who this is not for, exactly as you described, which feels unnatural.

Lenny Rachitsky：这让我思考，我参与了 Airbnb 核心价值观的创建，我们在整个过程中学到的一点是，当你为公司定义价值观时，澄清这不适合谁非常重要，就像你所描述的那样，这感觉不自然。

Like, "Oh, we want to be inclusive, we don't want to make people feel like they don't belong." But the whole idea is to be clear on here's who will thrive here and here's who's aligned with our mission.

就像，“哦，我们想要包容，我们不想让人们觉得他们不属于这里。”但整个想法是要明确哪些人将在这里蓬勃发展，哪些人与我们的使命保持一致。

And what I'm hearing is Palantir and these companies take it to the extreme.

我听到的是 Palantir 和这些公司将其发挥到了极致。

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: A hundred percent, yeah.

库雷希：百分之一百，是的。

On my team at Palantir, one process that we followed, I could talk about this more if it's interesting, is when you started a new project, you basically had to organize what they called a murder board for it.

在我在 Palantir 的团队中，我们遵循的一个流程，如果有趣的话我可以更多地谈论这一点，那就是当你开始一个新项目时，你基本上必须为此组织一个他们所谓的谋杀委员会。

I think this is originally an army type.

我觉得这本来就是陆军类型。

So, the idea is, basically, you write up a two-page plan for the project.

所以，基本上，你的想法是，为该项目写一份两页的计划。

You invite three or four smart folks who don't know anything about the project and their job is just to tear apart your plan.

你邀请了三四个对这个项目一无所知的聪明人，他们的工作只是撕毁你的计划。

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: And so, you have to write, here's the vision for this, here are the goals, here are the tactics over the next three months.

库雷希：所以，你必须写，这是未来三个月的愿景，这是目标，这是策略。

And one section was principles that you're following for this project.

其中一部分是您在该项目中遵循的原则。

And I remember giving this advice a lot was just like when people joined, they would write principles such as move fast and I would always be, "Everyone likes to move fast." It is not a good principle actually because nobody can really disagree with this reasonably.

我记得很多时候给出这样的建议就像人们加入时一样，他们会写下诸如快速行动之类的原则，而我总是会说，“每个人都喜欢快速行动。”实际上这不是一个好的原则，因为没有人能真正合理地反对这一点。

You need something that actually a lot of people are going to go, "Why are you taking this principle?

你需要一些实际上很多人都会去的东西，“你为什么要采用这个原则？

This seems wrong to me." So, you need something that people can disagree with.

这对我来说似乎是错误的。”所以，你需要一些人们可以不同意的东西。

Lenny Rachitsky: I want to come back to the beginning of what you described of what they look for, what Palantir looks for in people.

Lenny Rachitsky：我想回到你所描述的关于他们寻找什么的开头，Palantir 在人们身上寻找什么。

You talked about independent-minded, a lot of interests, broad interests, and competitive.

你谈到思想独立、兴趣多、兴趣广泛、有竞争力。

First of all, I think a lot of people hearing that, especially the last part, be like, "I don't want to work there." Why does this work?

首先，我认为很多人听到这句话，尤其是最后一部分，都会想，“我不想在那里工作。”为什么这有效？

Because this isn't naturally what you would think of as how you build the most amazing, productive team.

因为这并不是您自然想到的如何建立最令人惊叹、最高效的团队的方式。

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: I think it just draws people who want to win.

库雷希：我认为它只会吸引那些想要获胜的人。

I think that's what was really important.

我认为这才是真正重要的。

The other piece of it, I think, is that there's actually, and this was much truer 10 years ago, is there was a lot of talent that was a little bit outside of the tech ecosystem but could easily have been very successful within it.

我认为，另一件事是，实际上，10 年前更是如此，有很多人才在技术生态系统之外，但很容易在其中取得成功。

So, people who got out of the military or one of the intelligence agencies and they were doing, let's say, an MBA somewhere to transition into the corporate world.

因此，那些离开军队或情报机构的人，他们正在某个地方攻读 MBA，以便过渡到企业界。

And I think, typically, they would have taken a position at a classic Fortune 500 corporation.

我认为，通常情况下，他们会在典型的财富 500 强公司中担任职位。

And actually, Palantir managed to get a bunch of that talent.

事实上，Palantir 成功地获得了一批这样的人才。

And at the time, that was very undervalued.

在当时，它的价值被严重低估。

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: The people who succeed the most in the Marines or the Special Forces or whatever it is, tend to be pretty smart people.

库雷希：在海军陆战队、特种部队或无论什么部队中最成功的人往往都是非常聪明的人。

They tend to have accomplished very difficult goals in very hostile environments.

他们往往在非常恶劣的环境中完成非常困难的目标。

And it turns out that when you're starting a somewhat chaotic tech company, that's actually a very useful skill to have.

事实证明，当你创办一家有点混乱的科技公司时，这实际上是一项非常有用的技能。

Again, I think more companies are doing this now, so Scale AI and et cetera.

再说一次，我认为现在有更多的公司正在这样做，所以规模人工智能等等。

But at the time, that was a very differentiated talent pool.

但在当时，这是一个非常差异化的人才库。

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: And so, I think having those values as opposed to maybe the values that were more in fashion then, so talking about how inclusive you are, or the sushi that you serve at lunch, or whatever it is, it just drew a very different crowd.

库雷希：所以，我认为拥有这些价值观，而不是当时更流行的价值观，所以谈论你的包容性，或者你午餐时提供的寿司，或者其他什么，它只会吸引一群非常不同的人群。

And I think the game that was being played there was, one, it's mission alignment.

我认为那里正在玩的游戏是，第一，它是任务调整。

You're doing a defense company, that's the kind of person you want to attract.

你正在经营一家国防公司，这就是你想要吸引的人。

But I think there's also, two, which is just what is the talent that maybe is a little bit undervalued now and how do you actually draw those people to you?

但我认为还有两个问题，那就是现在可能有点被低估的人才是什么，以及你如何真正吸引这些人到你身边？

And I think that game is always shifting.

我认为游戏总是在变化。

Lenny Rachitsky: This is definitely starting to explain why so many Palantir alumni go on to start companies and become leaders at other companies.

Lenny Rachitsky：这肯定开始解释为什么这么多 Palantir 校友继续创办公司并成为其他公司的领导者。

These are leaders that you're hiring.

这些是您正在雇用的领导者。

So, it feels like a lot of it is just the talent you hire are people that are naturally leaders.

所以，感觉很多只是你雇佣的人才都是天生的领导者。

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: I think you're right, and we can get more into it, but I think there was also a very concrete set of ways where that place was a training ground for founders.

库雷希：我认为你是对的，我们可以深入探讨，但我认为还有一套非常具体的方法，让这个地方成为创始人的训练场。

I even think it turned a lot of people who might not have become founders into good founders because of the way it works.

我什至认为，由于它的运作方式，它让很多可能不会成为创始人的人变成了优秀的创始人。

So, I think there was a selection effect there, but there is also some training effect too, but it's unique to the way the company works.

所以，我认为其中存在选择效应，但也存在一些培训效应，但这是公司运作方式所独有的。

Lenny Rachitsky: And is that along the lines of the forward deployed engineer stuff or is that something else?

Lenny Rachitsky：这是否符合前沿部署工程师的思路，还是其他什么？

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, cool.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的，酷。

We're going to get to that.

我们会做到这一点。

I love it.

我喜欢它。

Okay, amazing.

好吧，太棒了。

Before we do that, one last thing is something I've seen is that you guys at Palantir don't really have titles.

在我们这样做之前，我看到的最后一件事是，Palantir 的你们并没有真正的头衔。

Everyone's the same level and just generic titles for everyone.

每个人的级别都是相同的，每个人都只有通用头衔。

Talk about that.

谈谈那个。

Why do you think that was important?

为什么你认为这很重要？

Why was that useful?

为什么这有用？

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: I don't know this for sure, but I do know that Thiel writes about this in Zero to One and his take is just that as soon as we have these title, you have a thing that people are competing for and then you get these very unproductive conflicts.

库雷希：我不确定这一点，但我确实知道泰尔在《从零到一》中写到了这一点，他的看法是，一旦我们拥有这些头衔，你就拥有了人们正在争夺的东西，然后你就会遇到这些非常无益的冲突。

You get people optimizing to game the system.

你让人们优化来玩弄系统。

You get Goodhart's law everywhere.

古德哈特定律无处不在。

So, it's like you have a metric and then people basically manage to the metrics.

所以，就像你有一个指标，然后人们基本上就可以达到这些指标。

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: I don't want to pick on any one company, but if you take Google, for example, there's a lot of interesting posts by people who left Google and they cite this as a reason why they got a little bit disgruntled, is that there's a way to get promoted.

库雷希：我不想针对任何一家公司，但以谷歌为例，离开谷歌的人发布了很多有趣的帖子，他们将此作为他们有点不满的原因，那就是有一种晋升的方法。

Rather than, let's say, improving an existing product, what you do is you start a completely new product and that has your name attached to it.

比方说，您所做的不是改进现有产品，而是开始开发一个全新的产品，并在其上贴上您的名字。

And then when it comes to promotion season, you could say, "Hey, I did this new thing." And then boom, you have a new Google product, but it's maybe confusing to the end user.

然后当谈到促销季节时，你可以说，“嘿，我做了这个新事情。”然后，你就拥有了一款新的 Google 产品，但它可能会让最终用户感到困惑。

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: So, I think they wanted to avoid all these kinds of dynamics.

库雷希：所以，我认为他们想避免所有这些动态。

And so, the way that they did that was they said, "Well, titles are not going to be this memetic totem that everybody competes for.

所以，他们这样做的方式是，“好吧，头衔不会成为每个人都争夺的模因图腾。

Instead, everyone is just going to have the same slightly meaningless title, which is forward deployed engineer." And the only people who did have titles were the CEO and then there were six directors and that was it.

相反，每个人都会有相同的有点毫无意义的头衔，那就是前沿部署工程师。”唯一有头衔的人是首席执行官，然后是六名董事，仅此而已。

And now, I think it's a little bit more nuanced.

现在，我认为情况更加微妙了。

There are different teams.

有不同的团队。

There are some people with titles, but honestly, it was almost like...

有些人有头衔，但说实话，这几乎就像......

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: We used to joke about it.

库雷希：我们曾经开过玩笑。

It's like people would leave the company and then you'd see them update their LinkedIn and they would be like, "Oh yeah, I was totally the SVP of XYZ." And it's like, "No, you weren't.

就像人们离开公司，然后你会看到他们更新 LinkedIn 一样，他们会说，“哦，是的，我完全是 XYZ 的高级副总裁。”就像是，“不，你不是。

You're just..." But then it's like I totally understand it too because when you leave the company, you have to make your experience legible to the next person.

你只是……”但是我也完全理解这一点，因为当你离开公司时，你必须让下一个人清楚你的经历。

And so, guess what?

那么，你猜怎么着？

Things like SVP actually do matter.

像 SVP 这样的事情实际上很重要。

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: And so, yeah, I think they wanted to avoid this intel competition.

库雷希：所以，是的，我认为他们想避免这种英特尔竞争。

There are downsides to doing this.

这样做有缺点。

So, maybe the competition isn't as explicit around a specific title, but instead, what it becomes about is there's a particular exact or something and you want to gain that favor.

所以，也许竞争并不围绕某个特定的标题那么明确，但相反，它的目的是有一个特定的确切或某些东西，而你想获得这种青睐。

And so, it becomes more about who can get in the inner circle of this person or whatever.

因此，更多的是关于谁可以进入这个人的核心圈子或其他什么。

And there were those dynamics too.

也有这些动态。

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: I actually am a big fan of this philosophy though, the no titles one.

库雷希：实际上，我是这一哲学的忠实粉丝，即无标题哲学。

I think what it did do is that it basically said if you are in, let's say you're in a role of you're leading a very important project, which could happen, what it said was...

我认为它所做的基本上是说，如果你在，假设你正在领导一个非常重要的项目，这可能会发生，它所说的是......

This is always fluid.

这始终是流动的。

So, you are in this role because you're very good and so, it's a meritocratic thing.

所以，你担任这个角色是因为你非常优秀，所以这是一个精英管理的事情。

But if you start performing well, it's actually very easy to shift that because there is no explicit " I am the GM of this project title." And so, you always had to earn your place in the company.

但如果你开始表现良好，实际上很容易改变这一点，因为没有明确的“我是这个项目的总经理”。因此，你总是必须在公司中赢得自己的位置。

You always had to earn the right to work on what you were working on, and I think that was a good side effect.

你总是必须赢得权利去做你正在做的事情，我认为这是一个很好的副作用。

Lenny Rachitsky: Let's start talking about forward deployed engineers.

Lenny Rachitsky：让我们开始讨论前沿部署的工程师。

What is a forward deployed engineer?

什么是前沿部署工程师？

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: So, the way this originated was, basically, you can think of it as there's two types of engineer at Palantir.

Qureshi：所以，基本上，你可以将其视为 Palantir 有两种类型的工程师。

So, there's one that works on the core products.

因此，有一个适用于核心产品的产品。

So, they don't necessarily leave the building in Palo Alto or New York or the offices.

因此，他们不一定离开帕洛阿尔托或纽约的大楼或办公室。

They're very much working on the core products and they're a traditional software engineer.

他们主要致力于核心产品的开发，并且是传统的软件工程师。

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: Because of the way the company works where you had these very large engagements with these large entities, there was a different type of engineer which you sent into the field.

库雷希：由于公司的运作方式，您与这些大型实体有大量的合作，因此您派出了不同类型的工程师到该领域。

So, what that meant was you would spend maybe Monday to Thursday and you would actually go into the building where the customer worked and you would work alongside them.

所以，这意味着你可能会在周一到周四的时间里，你实际上会进入客户工作的大楼，与他们一起工作。

You would literally get a desk there.

你实际上会在那里得到一张桌子。

And so, that engineer became known as a forward deployed engineer.

因此，该工程师被称为前沿部署工程师。

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: So, within the company, that function is known as business development or BD.

Qureshi：因此，在公司内部，该职能被称为业务开发或 BD。

And then PD is product development.

然后PD就是产品开发。

So, it's where the product is made.

所以，这就是产品的制造地。

And so, within BD, you had forward deployed engineers.

因此，在 BD 内部，有前沿部署的工程师。

There are actually two types.

实际上有两种类型。

So, there is one that it's a more technical software engineer.

所以，有一个说法是，它是一名技术性更强的软件工程师。

So, you have to pass a software engineering interview and prove your chops there and you would typically have a CS degree, but there was actually a type of forward deployed engineer that didn't have that.

因此，你必须通过软件工程面试并证明你的能力，你通常会获得计算机科学学位，但实际上有一类前沿部署的工程师没有这个学位。

So, you would still get a technical interview, but it would be less about, do you know the specifics of this C++ algorithm?

所以，你仍然会接受技术面试，但面试的内容不会是“你知道这个 C++ 算法的细节吗？”。

And it would be more about just like can you reason about data?

它更像是你能推理数据吗？

We didn't have that division originally, but it turns out that there's a lot of people who are technical adjacent, shall we say, who you really need in the room when you're working with these large organizations or these large companies, because translating what you're doing into language that would resonate with an executive or being able to navigate the social dynamics in a room, all these are very valuable skills.

我们最初没有这个部门，但事实证明，有很多技术相邻的人，容我们说，当你与这些大型组织或这些大公司合作时，你真正需要的人在房间里，因为将你正在做的事情翻译成能与高管产生共鸣的语言，或者能够驾驭房间里的社交动态，所有这些都是非常有价值的技能。

And so, the hiring criteria there were a little different.

因此，那里的招聘标准有点不同。

It was a bit more about, are you savvy as a human?

它更多的是关于，你作为一个人有悟性吗？

But all of that was given the title of forward deployed engineer, and it's just an engineer who works with customers.

但所有这些都被赋予了前沿部署工程师的头衔，而且只是一个与客户一起工作的工程师。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, so just to make this crystal clear for people, a lot of people hear this idea of Palantir having forward deployed engineers.

Lenny Rachitsky：好的，为了让人们清楚地了解这一点，很多人都听说过 Palantir 拥有前沿部署工程师的想法。

A few other companies have done this.

其他一些公司已经这样做了。

It's pretty radical.

这是相当激进的。

So, as you described, you basically have a desk at a company.

因此，正如您所描述的，您在公司基本上有一张办公桌。

So, you worked with Airbus and we'll talk about that.

那么，您与空中客车公司合作，我们将讨论这一点。

So, let's just make it real.

所以，让我们把它变成现实吧。

So, you have a desk and a computer and login access and all these things at Airbus.

因此，您在空中客车公司拥有一张桌子、一台电脑、登录权限以及所有这些东西。

You go to their office four times a week.

你每周去他们的办公室四次。

You're sitting there with their employees working side by side, building a product for them, versus what most people do where "they just talk to customers," where they do an interview once in a while, they do a Zoom, they share mocks, things like that.

你坐在那儿，与他们的员工并肩工作，为他们开发产品，而不是大多数人所做的“他们只是与客户交谈”，他们偶尔进行一次采访，他们进行 Zoom，他们分享模拟，诸如此类的事情。

This is like that on steroids.

这就像类固醇一样。

Is that roughly the way to think about it?

大致是这样思考的吗？

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: It is, yeah.

库雷希：是的，是的。

And so, we would really be there a lot of the time.

所以，我们真的会很多时间都在那里。

And so, the side effect of that was, one, you learn to live and breathe the customer's problems and you learn to speak their language.

因此，这样做的副作用是，第一，你学会生活和呼吸客户的问题，你学会说他们的语言。

And eventually, they saw you as one of them and so, you develop these really close bonds with the customers.

最终，他们将您视为其中一员，因此您与客户建立了非常密切的联系。

So, at Airbus, I would be at the factory where the planes were produced, or I'd be sitting next to people diagnosing issues with aircraft or whatever it was.

因此，在空中客车公司，我会在生产飞机的工厂，或者我会坐在诊断飞机问题或其他问题的人旁边。

Similarly, later on, I worked with the NIH, which was part of the US government, and I actually had a badge there and I would work with civil servants and biologists and clinicians and people who were working there.

同样，后来我在美国国立卫生研究院工作，它是美国政府的一部分，我实际上在那里有徽章，我会与公务员、生物学家、临床医生和在那里工作的人一起工作。

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: And so, it's this pretty radical thing as you suggest.

库雷希：所以，正如你所建议的，这是一个非常激进的事情。

I think the key thing there from a business point of view is the average deal that Palantir had was very large in the many, many millions of dollars, which means that you could pay for this as part of the thing that the customer got.

我认为从商业角度来看，关键是 Palantir 的平均交易金额非常大，达到数百万美元，这意味着你可以将其作为客户获得的东西的一部分来支付。

And then it was priced according to the value that the customer got.

然后根据客户获得的价值定价。

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: So, as a simple example, if you're Airbus and let's say that you have an issue with one of your planes and you need to fix it, and fixing that is worth a $100 million or something to you, that's how it would be priced.

库雷希：举个简单的例子，如果你是空中客车公司，假设你的一架飞机出现问题，你需要修理它，而修理它对你来说价值 1 亿美元或其他东西，这就是它的定价方式。

It would not be priced as, "Hey, you're buying data infrastructure and it's similar to Snowflake or Databricks or one of these other providers.

它的定价不会是“嘿，你正在购买数据基础设施，它类似于 Snowflake 或 Databricks 或其他提供商之一。

It's much more anchored to, here is the outcome.

它更加固定，这就是结果。

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: But then the job of the forward deployed engineer is not just to deploy software.

Qureshi：但是，前沿部署工程师的工作不仅仅是部署软件。

It is not just to sell software.

它不仅仅是销售软件。

It is to actually solve the problem.

就是要切实解决问题。

And so, you would have to be there.

所以，你必须在那里。

You would have to meet the key stakeholders who are actually in charge of reporting to the CEO about the specific issue.

您必须会见实际负责向首席执行官报告具体问题的主要利益相关者。

You would have to become their friend.

你必须成为他们的朋友。

You would have to gain their trust.

你必须赢得他们的信任。

And you would have to, in some cases, create new software such that it could actually solve the novel problem that was in front of you.

在某些情况下，您必须创建新的软件，以便它能够真正解决您面前的新问题。

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: So, I would have friends who worked with one of our energy company customers and they would have to learn the ins and outs of how oil wells work.

库雷希：所以，我有一些与我们的能源公司客户合作过的朋友，他们必须了解油井如何工作的细节。

And then out of that, it turns out that having streaming data is actually very valuable for this use case.

由此看来，拥有流数据对于这个用例来说实际上非常有价值。

And so, boom, suddenly, there's a product that can handle streaming data that becomes part of the core platform.

因此，突然之间，有一种可以处理流数据的产品成为核心平台的一部分。

But that would be the motion, is you learn about the problem.

但这就是动议，让你了解这个问题。

You figure out what software would best address it.

您弄清楚什么软件最能解决这个问题。

You build that software.

您构建该软件。

You use it to accomplish the goal.

你用它来实现目标。

And then eventually, that gets folded into the broader product suite.

最终，它会被纳入更广泛的产品套件中。

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: And so, you can start to see why this would be a good forge for founders.

库雷希：所以，你可以开始明白为什么这对创始人来说是一个很好的锻造平台。

And this was actually part of my thesis going in and joining, was I said, "Well, say, I got five reps of this," which I got more than that.

这实际上是我进入并加入的论文的一部分，我说，“好吧，比方说，我做了五次重复”，我得到的比这更多。

But say, you got five reps of doing this in five disparate contexts, you actually become very good at this cycle of, okay, go into the building, gain the trust of the person, meet the people that are going to become your users, talk to them about their problems, make sure you're building something that actually solves them, and it's just a boondoggle.

但是，比如说，你有五名代表在五个不同的环境中这样做，你实际上变得非常擅长这个循环，好吧，进入建筑物，获得人们的信任，会见将成为你的用户的人，与他们讨论他们的问题，确保你正在构建真正解决这些问题的东西，这只是一个废话。

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: Get really fast feedback and iteration loops.

Qureshi：获得非常快速的反馈和迭代循环。

So, every week, you would have a cadence where it's like Monday, you go in.

所以，每周，你都会有一种节奏，就像周一一样，你进去。

You do your meetings.

你开会。

Monday night, you build something.

周一晚上，你建造了一些东西。

Tuesday, you show it to somebody.

星期二，你把它展示给某人。

Tuesday, you get the feedback.

周二，你会收到反馈。

Tuesday night, you iterate on it.

周二晚上，你会重复它。

Wednesday, you show it to somebody.

星期三，你把它展示给某人。

Wednesday night, you iterate on it.

周三晚上，你会重复它。

So, you get four of these, five of these cycles every single week.

所以，你每周都会得到四个、五个这样的周期。

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: It already got it.

库雷希：已经得到了。

So you get four of these, five of these cycles every single week, and you're moving incredibly fast.

所以你每周都会有四个、五个这样的周期，而且你的进展速度非常快。

So 6 weeks in, you've suddenly gotten to, wow, this is really valuable, and somebody's willing to pay you whatever, $20 million for it, and boom.

所以 6 周后，你突然发现，哇，这真的很有价值，有人愿意付给你任何东西，2000 万美元，然后繁荣起来。

I think this is why you get so many founders coming out of this same process.

我认为这就是为什么这么多创始人都经历过同样的过程。

Lenny Rachitsky: It's becoming very clear why so many founders emerged out of Ballinger.

Lenny Rachitsky：为什么这么多创始人从巴林格脱颖而出，这一点已经变得非常清楚了。

Okay.

好的。

So an important element of this as you described, is that the idea here is build this as a one- off solution to solve a real problem at say Airbus or some government organization.

因此，正如您所描述的，其中的一个重要因素是，这里的想法是将其构建为一次性解决方案，以解决空客或某些政府组织的实际问题。

And then the idea as you create something out of that, that then Ballinger can sell to other companies.

然后当你从中创造出一些东西时，巴林格就可以将其出售给其他公司。

What's extra cool about that is they pay you to solve this problem for them and then that is funding this other product that Ballinger can now sell to everyone.

更酷的是，他们付钱给你来为他们解决这个问题，然后为巴林格现在可以出售给所有人的其他产品提供资金。

What a cool business.

多么酷的生意啊。

Lenny Rachitsky: However, early days Ballinger, everyone thought it was just this services business or just consultants building software for companies like Airbus, there's no way they can make this a platform that works for a lot of people.

Lenny Rachitsky：然而，在巴林格早期，每个人都认为这只是服务业务，或者只是为空客等公司构建软件的顾问，他们不可能让这成为一个为很多人服务的平台。

Clearly, that's what's happening and it worked out.

显然，这就是正在发生的事情，而且已经成功了。

This is like the holy grail.

这就像圣杯。

Solve one customer's problem and then sell it to everyone else.

解决一位客户的问题，然后将其卖给其他所有人。

Every SaaS business basically would love to do this.

每个 SaaS 企业基本上都愿意这样做。

What do you think allowed them to actually achieve this and be good at this?

您认为是什么让他们真正实现了这一目标并擅长于此？

What are some principles that worked?

有哪些有效的原则？

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: Yeah.

库雷希：是的。

That's a great question and it's true.

这是一个很好的问题，也是事实。

I think that from when I joined until maybe until IPO and a little bit after, I was told, "Hey, isn't this basically a sparkling extension?

我想，从我加入到 IPO 以及之后不久，我就被告知，“嘿，这基本上不是一个闪闪发光的扩展吗？

Isn't it a consulting business lopping as a product company?" And eventually it became undeniable.

难道这不是一家咨询公司正在向产品公司转型吗？”最终这一点变得不可否认。

One, because I always laugh when people are like, "What does Palantir do?" It's like you can go onto YouTube and just search Palantir demo and you'll get plenty of demos of how the software looks.

第一，因为当人们问“Palantir 是做什么的？”时我总是会笑。就像您可以进入 YouTube 并搜索 Palantir 演示，您将获得大量有关该软件外观的演示。

Not many people know about this, but you can go and sign up with a credit card right now and start using it.

没有多少人知道这一点，但您现在就可以去注册一张信用卡并开始使用它。

Lenny Rachitsky: I can have a Palantir account?

Lenny Rachitsky：我可以有一个 Palantir 帐户吗？

Lenny Rachitsky: I did not know that.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我不知道。

That's cool.

太酷了。

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: Yeah.

库雷希：是的。

I think it's called AIP now.

我想现在叫AIP。

So it's not actually that mystical and there is a product, and if you look at the margins, they show that.

所以它实际上并不那么神秘，并且有一个产品，如果你看一下利润率，它们就会显示这一点。

So they have 80% plus margins, which is not really what you would get if you were actually a consulting company.

所以他们有 80% 以上的利润，如果你实际上是一家咨询公司，这并不是你真正能得到的。

It would be closer to 20 or 30%.

会接近 20% 或 30%。

So then your question was, well, how did they actually achieve this?

那么你的问题是，他们是如何实现这一目标的？

I think there was just incredible talent in the product development organization, really top tier, incredible talent.

我认为产品开发组织中有令人难以置信的人才，真正的顶级人才。

And it took some really, really smart people to take the set of internal tools that we were using at the time to create value of customers and then go, what is the unified version of this?

一些非常非常聪明的人采用了我们当时使用的一套内部工具来为客户创造价值，然后去思考，这个的统一版本是什么？

Would this look like if this were a product?

如果这是一个产品，会是什么样子？

And out of that process that I saw came Foundry assume there was a similar process with Gotham a while back.

在我看到的这个过程中，Foundry 假设不久前 Gotham 也有类似的过程。

But basically it's like, the motion was that you would go in and early on you were basically armed with Jupyter Notebooks and some data integration stuff, but it was very primitive and you had to create value that way.

但基本上就像是，动议是你会进去，一开始你基本上就配备了 Jupyter Notebooks 和一些数据集成的东西，但它非常原始，你必须以这种方式创造价值。

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: But we kept building tooling that was useful for forward deployed engineers.

Qureshi：但我们一直在构建对前沿部署工程师有用的工具。

So we were our own first customers and at some point there was this concept of, "Wait, what if we take our internal tools and we let our customers use them?" And I remember at the time, this is a really radical idea.

因此，我们是我们自己的第一批客户，在某些时候出现了这样的概念：“等等，如果我们采用我们的内部工具并让我们的客户使用它们怎么办？”我记得当时，这是一个非常激进的想法。

And then Shyam Sankar, I think he's the CTO, maybe he's the president now, he just mandated like, "Okay.

然后是 Shyam Sankar，我认为他是首席技术官，也许他现在是总裁，他只是发出这样的命令：“好吧。

Every customer deployment you have to have a customer using this within three months or whatever." So it was horrible at the time because these had been built for these nerdy Silicon Valley engineers, and so they weren't particularly usable.

每次客户部署都必须有客户在三个月内使用它，或者其他什么。”所以这在当时很可怕，因为这些是为这些书呆子硅谷工程师构建的，所以它们不是特别有用。

They would crash all the time.

他们总是会崩溃。

You'd have to debug spark errors or whatever it was.

您必须调试火花错误或其他任何错误。

But basically that process brought a lot more rigor to our thinking about the product.

但基本上这个过程让我们对产品的思考更加严谨。

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: And out of that kind of, I would say three or four year process came the Foundry product.

Qureshi：我想说，在这种情况下，经过三四年的过程，诞生了 Foundry 产品。

And then there was a lot of focus around things like performance and reliability and so on.

然后，人们非常关注性能和可靠性等问题。

That was all really painful.

这一切真的很痛苦。

So yeah, I think the answer was just talent.

所以是的，我认为答案就是天赋。

And then there was this recognition that we do.

然后我们就认识到了这一点。

We do know things that most people do not know about how data works in large organizations.

关于数据在大型组织中的运作方式，我们确实知道大多数人不知道的事情。

That was the other thing.

那是另一回事。

We discovered a lot of "secrets" in this process of living with customers for so long.

在与客户长期相处的过程中，我们发现了很多“秘密”。

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: The basic one was just data integration is massively painful inside organizations.

Qureshi：最基本的一点是数据集成在组织内部是非常痛苦的。

This is very hard to understand unless you've worked in a large organization, but it's actually impossible to even now to get access to a lot of your own internal data that you need to do your job.

除非您曾在大型组织中工作过，否则这很难理解，但实际上即使现在也无法访问完成工作所需的大量内部数据。

So you'll hear stories of people being like, "I'm trying to calculate our sales this quarter, and I had to wait six weeks for some other analytics team to get me this deliverable." So just knowing problems like that and being able to focus our product efforts around those problems, meant that we were able to build something generalizable there.

因此，您会听到这样的故事：“我正在尝试计算本季度的销售额，但我不得不等待六周才能让其他分析团队为我提供此交付成果。”因此，只要了解此类问题并能够将我们的产品工作集中在这些问题上，就意味着我们能够在那里构建一些可推广的东西。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

There's a lot here.

这里有很多。

First of all, you talk about Gotham and Foundry.

首先，你谈论 Gotham 和 Foundry。

I know that we'll link to videos of people checking these out, but just what's the simplest way to understand what these two products do?

我知道我们会链接到人们检查这些产品的视频，但是了解这两种产品的最简单方法是什么？

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: So Gotham is optimized for military and defense use cases and intel as well.

Qureshi：所以 Gotham 针对军事和国防用例以及英特尔进行了优化。

I would say they both have some things in common.

我想说他们都有一些共同点。

So they both have, I would describe this almost as a pyramid where the bottom layer is data ingestion, the middle layer is data mapping, and then the top layer is anything that's user facing.

所以他们都有，我将其描述为一个金字塔，其中底层是数据摄取，中间层是数据映射，然后顶层是用户面对的任何内容。

So any UI component.

所以任何 UI 组件。

And then if you think of Foundry for a second, there's different tools that allow you to ingest data to it.

如果您想一下 Foundry，就会发现有不同的工具可以让您向其中提取数据。

There's different tools that allow you to easily build data pipelines and clean up data, which everybody has to do.

有不同的工具可以让您轻松构建数据管道并清理数据，这是每个人都必须做的。

And then there's a bunch of tooling that allows you to build compelling UIs on top, do point and click analytics, do notebook style workflows, however technical you are.

然后还有一堆工具可以让您在顶部构建引人注目的 UI、进行点击分析、执行笔记本式工作流程，无论您的技术水平如何。

So that's, I mean, when it's a platform, it's a suite of things that has a common data backing but contains a bunch of different applications.So I think that is somewhat true of Gotham as well.

所以，我的意思是，当它是一个平台时，它是一套具有公共数据支持但包含一堆不同应用程序的东西。所以我认为 Gotham 也是如此。

But when you log in, you see this unified interface.

但当你登录后，你看到的就是这个统一的界面。

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: So what is the actual difference then?

库雷希：那么实际的区别是什么呢？

I would say with Gotham, you're looking much more at workflows like that involve maps, for example.

我想说的是，对于 Gotham，您会更多地关注涉及地图的工作流程。

So when you're doing a military operation, a lot of the time you are going to be looking at a map and you are going to be monitoring the movement of troops or tanks or whatever it is.

因此，当您进行军事行动时，很多时候您都会查看地图，并且会监视部队或坦克或其他任何东西的移动。

Another big difference is the idea of graph-based analysis.

另一个很大的区别是基于图形的分析的想法。

So Gotham, one of the use cases was finding combing through networks of terrorists and basically finding the bad guys.

所以 Gotham，用例之一是通过恐怖分子网络进行梳理，基本上找到坏人。

So being able to do queries that are graph-based was important.

因此，能够执行基于图形的查询非常重要。

So it's like, "Who is everybody that Lenny called in the last week?" Imagine all the nodes fanning out from there.

所以这就像是，“莱尼上周打电话给的每个人都是谁？”想象一下所有节点都从那里散开。

And then it's like, "Okay.

然后就像是，“好吧。

Well, this one looks interesting.

嗯，这个看起来很有趣。

Let's zoom in on that.

让我们放大来看。

What is this person's location?"

这个人在什么地方？”

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: So it's this very graph-based way of thinking that also applies to things like fraud.

库雷希：这种基于图表的思维方式也适用于欺诈等问题。

So Gotham has been deployed against fraud, but if you look at Foundry, it doesn't actually emphasize that component so much because it turns out, let's say you're a B2B SaaS company, you're probably not doing that much graph-based analysis.

因此，Gotham 已针对欺诈进行了部署，但如果您看看 Foundry，您会发现它实际上并没有那么强调该组件，因为事实证明，假设您是一家 B2B SaaS 公司，您可能不会进行那么多基于图形的分析。

You're doing things that look a lot more like classic SQL queries, tables, that kind of stuff.

你正在做的事情看起来更像是经典的 SQL 查询、表之类的东西。

So Foundry is a lot more traditional in that way.

所以 Foundry 在这方面要传统得多。

Lenny Rachitsky: That was an amazing explanation.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个令人惊奇的解释。

For the first time, I am starting to understand what these products do.

我第一次开始了解这些产品的用途。

Basically, it's just sucks in a bunch of data, cleans it up so you can actually trust it and then helps you interact with it in various use cases, maps, graphs, tables.

基本上，它只是吸收一堆数据，清理它，这样你就可以真正信任它，然后帮助你在各种用例、地图、图表、表格中与它交互。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

Amazing.

太棒了。

The example you gave of what you worked on at Airbus, you described it as basically a sauna for making planes.

你举的你在空中客车公司工作的例子，你把它描述为基本上是一个制造飞机的桑拿房。

Is that right?

是这样吗？

Lenny Rachitsky: So how much of that does becomes a part of this core product versus stays this one-off thing?

Lenny Rachitsky：那么，其中有多少是成为核心产品的一部分，而不是保持一次性的东西呢？

Is it elements, that's a cool innovation, let's put that into Foundry.

这是元素吗？这是一项很酷的创新，让我们将其放入 Foundry 中。

How does that work?

这是如何运作的？

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: This was a really interesting story actually.

库雷希：这实际上是一个非常有趣的故事。

So the initial problem that we came into with Airbus was that they had a new aircraft called the A350 beautiful aircraft.

因此，我们在空中客车公司遇到的最初问题是他们有一架名为 A350 漂亮飞机的新飞机。

By the way, if you get to, I think if you fly New York to Singapore, it's often in that A350.

顺便说一句，如果你要去的话，我想如果你从纽约飞往新加坡，通常会乘坐 A350。

Really nice.

真的很好。

So it was a relatively new aircraft at the time, and their mandate to us was, "Okay.

所以它当时是一架相对较新的飞机，他们对我们的任务是，“好吧。

We need to ramp up production of this really fast," much faster than we've ever done it before.

我们需要非常快地提高产量”，比我们以前做过的要快得多。

So it's like the numbers are very approximate, but it's like, "Okay.

所以看起来这些数字非常近似，但就像是，“好吧。

We're producing 4 this month, we need to do 8 the next month, 16 the month after, and so forth, and you are going to help us do it." So this goes back to what I was saying earlier is the mandate wasn't like, "Hey, we need to upgrade our data infrastructure.

我们这个月生产 4 个，下个月需要生产 8 个，下个月需要生产 16 个，依此类推，你要帮助我们做到这一点。”所以这又回到了我之前所说的，任务不是这样的，“嘿，我们需要升级我们的数据基础设施。

We thought you guys would be met the list of requirements." It was much more just like, "Please help us accomplish this mission.

我们以为你们会满足所列的要求。”这更像是，“请帮助我们完成这项任务。

This is the big thing."

这是一件大事。”

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: So we went in, scoped out the problem.

库雷希：所以我们进去寻找问题所在。

There were a bunch of different things that we could build that helped accelerate this, but one of the basic problems that we figured out was that without getting too much into the weeds, the way the factory would work, is that there's a bunch of stations and you can think of the plane as literally moving between each station and then each station would do a certain set of work on it.

我们可以建造很多不同的东西来帮助加速这一过程，但我们发现的一个基本问题是，在不涉及太多杂草的情况下，工厂的工作方式是有很多站，你可以认为飞机实际上是在每个站之间移动，然后每个站都会在它上面做一组特定的工作。

So initially, it's literally a big fuselage and the fuselage is sitting there and then people are doing a bunch of work orders against it.

所以最初，它实际上是一个大机身，机身就坐在那里，然后人们正在针对它执行一系列工作指令。

They need parts in order to do that work.

他们需要零件才能完成这项工作。

And then at some point they say, "Okay.

然后在某个时候他们会说：“好吧。

This is ready to move to Station 31, and the plane is physically moved to the next station and then Station 31 does its next thing."

这已准备好移动到 31 号站，飞机物理上移动到下一个站，然后 31 号站执行下一步操作。”

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: So in order for the next station to do its work properly, they need to know, one, what work was done at the previous station and what work is remaining?

库雷希：因此，为了让下一站正常工作，他们需要知道，一，前一站完成了哪些工作，还剩下哪些工作？

Two is just like, if you think about this problem, not all work is going to get done on time.

第二，如果你考虑这个问题，并不是所有的工作都会按时完成。

So things carry over to the next team, and the next team then has to...

所以事情会转移到下一个团队，然后下一个团队必须......

So when I'm describing this problem to you can start to visualize, okay, maybe I need some Gantt chart to this, and I need the ability to click in and say, "Okay.

因此，当我向您描述这个问题时，您可以开始想象，好吧，也许我需要一些甘特图来解决这个问题，并且我需要能够点击并说：“好吧。

What did Station 30 do and what work orders remained undone?" And then it's like, "Okay.

30 号站做了什么，还有哪些工单尚未完成？”然后就说，“好吧。

For those work orders, what parts do I need and where in the factory might they be?" So this was very, very hard to do as it is.

对于这些工作订单，我需要哪些零件以及它们可能在工厂的什么地方？”所以这非常非常难以做到。

A lot of it was just relying on people going and having conversations with other people on the factory floor, and coming from tech where it's maybe not as complicated as building aircraft, that is a phenomenally complicated process, but it is easy to see, okay, you can actually improve this problem with software.

其中很多只是依赖于人们在工厂车间与其他人进行对话，并且来自科技，它可能不像制造飞机那么复杂，这是一个非常复杂的过程，但很容易看出，好吧，你实际上可以用软件来改善这个问题。

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: All that data was stored in SAP and SAP is like established software.

Qureshi：所有数据都存储在 SAP 中，而 SAP 就像已建立的软件一样。

It's good at what it does, but it's not the most user-friendly necessarily, especially if you're not an expert in how it stores data.

它的功能很好，但不一定是最用户友好的，特别是如果您不是它存储数据的专家的话。

The table names are very hard to understand and read.

表名非常难以理解和阅读。

So one of the things we figured out was just if you can pull in these tables that may as well be written in completely alien language, the table name would just be like S3, F1_Z or something like that.

因此，我们想到的一件事是，如果您可以提取这些可能用完全外来语言编写的表，那么表名称就会像 S3、F1_Z 或类似的名称。

And you'd have to know, okay, this is the table where the part ID is stored or something.

您必须知道，好吧，这是存储零件 ID 之类的表。

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: If you could pull in those tables and join them in the right ways, and then just map them to human concepts that humans can understand, so things like a part a work order, an aircraft, et cetera, and basically build a hierarchy or mapping between them, then what you can do is, a user can just log in and say, "Okay.

Qureshi：如果您可以提取这些表格并以正确的方式连接它们，然后将它们映射到人类可以理解的人类概念，例如工作订单的零件、飞机等，并基本上在它们之间构建层次结构或映射，那么您可以做的是，用户只需登录并说：“好吧。

Aircraft 79, where is that?

79号飞机，那是哪里？

Okay.

好的。

It's at Station 31.

就在31号车站。

All right.

好吧。

These are the work orders, et cetera." So you've translated it into a more human-legible thing.

这些是工单等等。”所以你已经把它翻译成了更容易理解的东西。

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: So the thing we built, I slightly flippantly described it as Asana.

库雷希：所以我们建造的东西，我有点轻率地将它描述为 Asana。

It's a little different.

有点不同。

But basically that's what it did, was it gave you a unified view of, okay, this is what's going on inside the factory.

但基本上这就是它所做的，它给了你一个统一的视图，好吧，这就是工厂内部正在发生的事情。

This is the work that needs to be done on this particular plane.

这是这个特定平面上需要完成的工作。

And then me today going to my job at Station 31, what work orders do I need to fulfill and where are the parts that I need to do that?

然后我今天要去 31 号站上班，我需要完成哪些工作订单以及完成这些工作所需的零件在哪里？

So did this directly become a part of Foundry?

那么这直接成为Foundry的一部分了吗？

Not exactly, because the way that other companies work is not going to be using this same set of concepts, but the overall idea of taking a bunch of tables, and then mapping them to human understandable concepts was a very powerful one.

不完全是这样，因为其他公司的工作方式不会使用同一组概念，但采用一堆表格，然后将它们映射到人类可理解的概念的整体想法是一个非常强大的想法。

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: So this actually resulted in a big piece of Foundry now, which they call Ontology.

Qureshi：所以这实际上导致了 Foundry 的一大块，他们称之为 Ontology。

You've probably heard this term as you've seen...

您可能已经听说过这个术语，正如您所看到的......

If you see Palantir presentations, they always talk about Ontology.

如果你看 Palantir 的演示，他们总是谈论本体论。

This is what they actually mean by that, is it is a set of concepts that is understandable to you as a human and you are not having to go and dig around and do.

这就是他们真正的意思，这是一组你作为人类可以理解的概念，你不必四处挖掘和去做。

You're just able to say, "Where is the aircraft now and where is it going next?" So the ontology became a huge piece of Foundry.

您只需说：“飞机现在在哪里，接下来要去哪里？”于是本体就成为了 Foundry 的一大块。

It was directly informed by the learnings that we had from building that application inside that factory.

它直接来自于我们在工厂内构建该应用程序所获得的经验教训。

And I would say it's still a very big differentiator today.

我想说，今天它仍然是一个非常大的差异化因素。

I don't think too many other companies ship this kind of stuff yet.

我认为还没有太多其他公司提供此类产品。

Lenny Rachitsky: Wow.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：哇。

I love how excited you still are about this.

我喜欢你对此仍然感到兴奋。

I could see it being so fulfilling to solve this big problem.

我可以看到解决这个大问题是非常有成就感的。

I saw a stat that I think, 4X their productivity.

我看到一个统计数据，我认为，他们的生产力是他们的 4 倍。

What was the number there?

那里的电话号码是多少？

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: Yeah.

库雷希：是的。

I don't recall the exact stat, but we did ramp up production, I think at least 4X that 1 year, which I mean obviously, they did this and we just helped with it.

我不记得确切的统计数据，但我们确实提高了产量，我认为一年内至少增加了 4 倍，我的意思显然是，他们做到了这一点，我们只是提供了帮助。

But that CEO said that we played a critical part.

但那位首席执行官说我们发挥了关键作用。

Lenny Rachitsky: Also, you moved to France, I think for this.

Lenny Rachitsky：另外，我认为你搬到了法国也是为了这个。

That was how forward deployed you were.

这就是你的前线部署方式。

You lived in France for how long?

您在法国住了多久？

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: Yeah.

库雷希：是的。

I lived in France for about a year and a half.

我在法国生活了大约一年半。

The way they built their planes is they manufacture different components around Europe.

他们制造飞机的方式是在欧洲各地制造不同的部件。

So they build the tail in Spain and the fuselage in part of the UK and Germany and so forth.

因此，他们在西班牙建造机尾，在英国和德国等地建造机身。

So they basically ship everything to France to be assembled at the end, which you can imagine this is a very messy process.

所以他们基本上把所有东西都运到法国最后组装，你可以想象这是一个非常混乱的过程。

So I was mostly in France, but there would be weeks where I'd have to fly between all these countries just to figure out where things were.

所以我大部分时间都在法国，但有几周的时间我必须在所有这些国家之间飞行才能弄清楚东西在哪里。

Lenny Rachitsky: In your post you wrote about how just the life of forward deployed engineers is pretty crazy.

Lenny Rachitsky：在你的文章中，你写到了前沿部署工程师的生活是多么疯狂。

You just get a call sometimes like, "Hey, you're flying to this random country tomorrow.

有时你会接到这样的电话：“嘿，你明天要飞往一个随机的国家。

Get ready." Is that just life as a forward deployed engineer?

准备好。”这就是前沿部署工程师的生活吗？

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: It is.

库雷希：是的。

Yeah.

是的。

The company had a very, I would say, aggressive attitude towards travel in the sense of when you join, you were basically told, "Look, you have to be okay with travel.

我想说，该公司对旅行有一种非常积极的态度，当你加入时，你基本上会被告知，“听着，你必须对旅行感到满意。

Are you okay with that?" And the attitude, which again I think is a very founder friendly one is you need to be willing to just jump on a plane that night if that's the best thing to do for this customer and if it's going to get us to where it needs to be to win.

你同意吗？”我认为这也是一种对创始人非常友好的态度，那就是你需要愿意在那天晚上跳上飞机，如果这对这个客户来说是最好的事情，并且它能让我们到达需要获胜的地方。

So there were many times when it would be like, "I need to take this cross continental flight tomorrow for this particular thing because it will be useful."

所以很多时候，我会说，“我明天需要乘坐跨大陆航班来处理这件特别的事情，因为它会很有用。”

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: So I think that's one of the takeaways for me was just being in person is so valuable when you are working with some external party, just going there for a few days and spending time with them, maybe going out for dinner.

库雷希：所以我认为这对我来说是一个收获，当你与一些外部团体合作时，亲自去那里几天，与他们共度时光，也许出去吃晚饭，这是非常有价值的。

You build so much more trust than if you're trying to close a customer over Zoom or do an engagement over Zoom.

与尝试通过 Zoom 关闭客户或通过 Zoom 进行互动相比，您建立的信任要多得多。

It's just the vibe is completely different.

只是气质完全不一样了。

So yeah, getting on a plane was a really cool part of our job for a very long time.

所以，是的，在很长一段时间里，坐飞机是我们工作中非常酷的一部分。

This obviously changed around 2020 because COVID happened, the company IPO, and so there needed to be a bit more internal controls around this.

这种情况在 2020 年左右明显发生了变化，因为新冠疫情发生了，公司进行了 IPO，因此需要对此进行更多的内部控制。

But I would say pre-2020, this was a very big part of the culture.

但我想说，在 2020 年之前，这是文化的一个重要组成部分。

Lenny Rachitsky: I'm excited to have Andrew Luo joining us today.

Lenny Rachitsky：我很高兴安德鲁·罗今天加入我们。

Andrew is CEO of OneSchema, one of our longtime podcast sponsors.

Andrew 是 OneSchema 的首席执行官，OneSchema 是我们的长期播客赞助商之一。

Welcome, Andrew.

欢迎，安德鲁。

Andrew Luo: Thanks for having me, Lenny.

罗安德：谢谢你邀请我，Lenny。

Great to be here.

很高兴来到这里。

Lenny Rachitsky: So what is new with OneSchema?

Lenny Rachitsky：那么 OneSchema 有哪些新功能？

I know that you work with some of my favorite companies like Ramp and Vanta and Watershed.

我知道您与我最喜欢的一些公司合作，例如 Ramp、Vanta 和 Watershed。

I heard you guys launched a new data intake product that automates the hours of manual work that teams spent importing and mapping and integrating CSV and Excel files?

我听说你们推出了一款新的数据获取产品，可以自动执行团队导入、映射以及集成 CSV 和 Excel 文件所需的手动工作时间？

Andrew Luo: Yes.

罗安德鲁：是的。

So we just launched the 2.0 of OneSchema FileFeeds.

所以我们刚刚推出了 OneSchema FileFeeds 2.0。

We have rebuilt it from the ground up with AI.

我们用人工智能从头开始重建它。

We saw so many customers coming to us with teams of data engineers that struggled with the manual work required to clean messy spreadsheets.

我们看到很多客户带着数据工程师团队来到我们这里，他们在清理凌乱的电子表格所需的手动工作中遇到了困难。

FileFeeds 2.0 allows non-technical teams to automate the process of transforming CSV and Excel files with just a simple prompt.

FileFeeds 2.0 允许非技术团队通过简单的提示来自动化转换 CSV 和 Excel 文件的过程。

We support all of the trickiest file integrations, SFTP, S3, and even email.

我们支持所有最棘手的文件集成、SFTP、S3，甚至电子邮件。

Lenny Rachitsky: I can tell you that if my team had to build integrations like this, how nice would it be to take this off our roadmap and instead use something like OneSchema?

Lenny Rachitsky：我可以告诉你，如果我的团队必须构建这样的集成，那么将其从我们的路线图中删除并使用 OneSchema 之类的东西该多好？

Andrew Luo: Absolutely, Lenny.

罗安德鲁：当然，莱尼。

We've heard so many horror stories of outages from even just a single bad record in transactions, employee files, purchase orders, you name it.

我们听过很多可怕的停电故事，哪怕只是交易、员工档案、采购订单等方面的一个不良记录。

Debugging these issues is often finding a needle in a haystack.

调试这些问题常常是大海捞针。

OneSchema stops any bad data from entering your system and automatically validates your files, generating error reports with the exact issues in all bad files.

OneSchema 可阻止任何不良数据进入您的系统并自动验证您的文件，生成错误报告，其中包含所有不良文件中的确切问题。

Lenny Rachitsky: I know that importing incorrect data can cause all kinds of pain for your customers and quickly lose their trust.

Lenny Rachitsky：我知道导入不正确的数据会给您的客户带来各种痛苦，并很快失去他们的信任。

Andrew, thank you so much for joining me.

安德鲁，非常感谢你加入我。

If you want to learn more, head on over to oneschema.co. That's oneschema.co.

如果您想了解更多信息，请访问 oneschema.co。那是 oneschema.co。

Lenny Rachitsky: There's a lot of founders listening to this and a question that I'm thinking and they're probably thinking, and there's two questions here.

Lenny Rachitsky：有很多创始人在听这个问题，我正在思考一个问题，他们可能也在思考，这里有两个问题。

One is how hardcore to go potentially with their own forward deployed operation.

一是他们自己的前沿部署行动如何发挥核心作用。

And then two is just how and a company I know is actually doing this, how far to go with one company's problem and invest in just like we are going to nail solving this one customer's problem with the hope that this is something we can abstract and sell as a big platform.

第二个问题是我认识的一家公司实际上是如何做到这一点的，如何解决一家公司的问题并进行投资，就像我们要解决这个客户的问题一样，希望这是我们可以抽象出来并作为一个大平台出售的东西。

So let me start there.

让我从这里开始。

And you're building a company, any I guess insights or advice on just how far to go down this road of we'll solve customer one's problem and we bet that this is going to be a big opportunity for a lot of other companies?

你正在建立一家公司，我猜想关于我们将解决客户问题的这条道路走多远有什么见解或建议吗？我们打赌这对许多其他公司来说将是一个巨大的机会？

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: So I would say on the forward deployed piece, my friend Barry McCardel, the CEO of Hex, the analytics company, he wrote a really good post about this actually, and his take was just like, "You probably don't need forward deployed engineers." It's very specific.

库雷希：所以我想说，关于前沿部署的文章，我的朋友巴里·麦卡德尔（Barry McCardel），分析公司 Hex 的首席执行官，他实际上写了一篇关于这方面的非常好的文章，他的看法就像是，“你可能不需要前沿部署的工程师。”这是非常具体的。

But I think basically the thing there is you have to be willing to be quite almost wasteful.

但我认为基本上你必须愿意几乎浪费。

You have to be willing to invest a lot in finding the thing.

你必须愿意投入大量资金来寻找东西。

And for that you just need a certain ticket size.

为此，您只需要一定的票据大小。

So you need each customer's revenue to be probably in the billions of dollars.

因此，您需要每个客户的收入可能达到数十亿美元。

If it's below that, you're probably not looking at a traditional forward deployed engineer motion.

如果低于该值，您可能不会考虑传统的前沿部署工程师动议。

It's something a little bit different.

这是有点不同的东西。

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: So I think one thesis that a lot of people left Palantir with and started companies around was there's a lot of customers that Palantir won't serve because maybe they're too small a ticket size.

Qureshi：所以我认为很多人离开 Palantir 并创办公司的一个论点是，Palantir 不会为很多客户提供服务，因为也许他们的门票规模太小了。

So actually you could go and do something like Palantir for those companies, but instead of charging them $5 million, you're charging them 250K.

所以实际上你可以为这些公司做类似 Palantir 的事情，但你不是向他们收取 500 万美元，而是向他们收取 25 万美元。

So in a scenario like that, you might still have forward deployed engineers, but they're not going to France and spending five days a week in a factory.

因此，在这种情况下，您可能仍然有前沿部署的工程师，但他们不会去法国并每周在工厂呆五天。

It's more like you'll have one person and they're looking after five different customer accounts.

这更像是您有一个人，他们负责管理五个不同的客户帐户。

It's more of that ratio in order to make the numbers work.

为了使数字发挥作用，更多的是这个比例。

So I think a lot of the principles can be abstracted from that experience, but it is a really specific sales motion that depends on a specific way of doing business.

所以我认为很多原则可以从这种经验中抽象出来，但这是一个非常具体的销售动作，取决于具体的业务方式。

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: I think to your other question, yeah, I think it's obviously something that is very hard to give a general answer to.

库雷希：我认为对于你的另一个问题，是的，我认为这显然是很难给出一般性答案的。

My main thing here is just that you can definitely tell when you are just doing consulting and when you are closer to building a product.

我在这里的主要目的是，你可以明确地知道什么时候你只是在做咨询，什么时候你更接近构建产品。

And I think the error that people make more often than not is they are actually too stuck on their own product vision.

我认为人们经常犯的错误是他们实际上过于拘泥于自己的产品愿景。

That's the mistake I've seen a little bit more actually than the other way around.

事实上，我见过的这种错误比相反的错误要多一些。

If you go to an enterprise customer, and let's say you think you're doing analytics software and it turns out they don't actually care about internal analytics this much, they actually have this other massive burning problem and they don't have a good solution to it yet.

如果你去找一个企业客户，假设你认为你正在开发分析软件，结果发现他们实际上并不太关心内部分析，他们实际上还有另一个严重的问题，而且他们还没有一个好的解决方案。

I think a lot of people are unwilling to go and pivot to the big problem because they're like, "Well, we're analytics software and so maybe this customer is a fit for our thing," and maybe that's the right call.

我认为很多人不愿意转向解决大问题，因为他们会说，“好吧，我们是分析软件，所以也许这个客户适合我们的产品”，也许这是正确的选择。

In some scenarios, that is the right call.

在某些情况下，这是正确的选择。

You should go find a different customer where your thing resonates more.

你应该去找一个不同的客户，在那里你的产品能引起更多共鸣。

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: In other scenarios, it's actually the right call to pivot and just put everything on that big problem instead and then go and find other customers for that thing.

库雷希：在其他情况下，这实际上是正确的转变，只需将一切都放在那个大问题上，然后再去寻找其他客户来解决这个问题。

There's no hard and fast rule.

没有硬性规定。

I remember reading a really interesting post by, I think it was David Hsu from Retool who had this exact thing.

我记得读过一篇非常有趣的文章，我认为是来自 Retool 的 David Hsu 做了这件事。

I think he worked at Palantir for a while too.

我想他也曾在 Palantir 工作过一段时间。

He said that they had the Retool product and it wasn't getting any traction at all.

他说他们有 Retool 产品，但根本没有得到任何关注。

And then he tried an outbound email campaign where he literally just changed the subject line to build internal tools easily.

然后他尝试了一次出站电子邮件活动，他实际上只是更改了主题行以轻松构建内部工具。

And then suddenly they started getting all these replies from CTOs who were just like, "Yeah.

然后突然他们开始收到首席技术官的回复，他们的反应就像是：“是的。

This is actually a huge pain point for me."

这对我来说实际上是一个巨大的痛点。”

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: But the exact same solution, they were previously framing it as, I think it was supercharged Excel or something like that, and nobody was biting.

Qureshi：但是完全相同的解决方案，他们之前将其定义为，我认为它是增压的 Excel 或类似的东西，但没有人反对。

So they just changed the way they framed it and found a different set of buyers and succeeded that way.

因此，他们只是改变了框架方式，找到了不同的买家，并以这种方式取得了成功。

So yeah, no hard and fast rule, but I think it's always you need to have this matrix of options in your mind and be very deliberate about which one you are going with and why.

所以，是的，没有硬性规定，但我认为你总是需要在脑海中有这个选项矩阵，并且非常慎重地考虑你要选择哪一个以及为什么。

Lenny Rachitsky: I think your piece of advice is really important there.

Lenny Rachitsky：我认为你的建议非常重要。

Usually in your experience, you're saying people index too far too?

通常根据您的经验，您是说人们索引得太远了？

Like now, what they're asking me to do is not what I think they need or what customers will need.

就像现在一样，他们要求我做的不是我认为他们需要的或客户需要的。

You're saying it's actually more likely they're right, and that's maybe where you should be focusing more versus this abstract vision and original idea you had?

你是说他们实际上更有可能是对的，与你的抽象愿景和原创想法相比，这也许是你应该更多关注的地方？

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: I think so, yeah.

库雷希：我想是的，是的。

I think it's very hard to not be anchored to your own experience and your conceptions as a problem.

我认为很难不将自己的经验和观念视为问题。

And one thing I've seen in really strong founders is they're able to drop a bunch of those assumptions and almost treat a new opportunity as a completely blank slate.

我在真正强大的创始人身上看到的一件事是，他们能够放弃一堆假设，几乎将新机会视为完全空白的石板。

And then just figure out how to reshape things so that you're taking advantage of that, and that's how you don't get stuck at a local maximum.

然后弄清楚如何重塑事物，以便你能够利用它，这样你就不会陷入局部最大值。

Lenny Rachitsky: Your other piece of advice is also really great.

Lenny Rachitsky：您的另一条建议也非常好。

So people hear this and they're like, "We don't afford an engineer to sit at one customer prospects office and build stuff for them." But your point is you can have one for five different customers.

因此，人们听到这句话后会想：“我们雇不起一名工程师坐在客户前景办公室为他们构建产品。”但你的观点是你可以为五个不同的客户提供一个。

They're not there full time.

他们不是全职在那里。

They bounce around, but they're...

他们到处乱跳，但他们...

It's almost like sales engineering, just like what you call it sparkling sales where they help make it successful.

这几乎就像销售工程，就像你所说的闪闪发光的销售一样，他们帮助它取得成功。

I know Looker is a famous example.

我知道 Looker 是一个著名的例子。

They think they called them forward deployed engineers.

他们认为他们称他们为前沿部署工程师。

Do you know any other companies by the way, that some version of forward deployed engineers?

顺便问一下，您还知道其他公司有某种版本的前沿部署工程师吗？

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: There's a lot.

库雷希：有很多。

I mean, I know that the AR-Labs are hiring forward deployed engineers now, they're building forward deployed engineering teams and they could make it work, but I think there's going to be key differences.

我的意思是，我知道 AR 实验室现在正在招聘前沿部署的工程师，他们正在建立前沿部署的工程团队，他们可以使其发挥作用，但我认为会有一些关键的区别。

I don't see Anthropic going into an enterprise customer and building some entirely from scratch solution for them.

我不认为 Anthropic 会进入企业客户并为他们构建一些完全从头开始的解决方案。

It's going to be something that leverages the Anthropic set of products.

这将是利用 Anthropic 系列产品的东西。

So there's a lot of companies that have this label now, but I think what's really confusing about, it's just that it means a few different things.

现在有很多公司都有这个标签，但我认为真正令人困惑的是，它意味着一些不同的东西。

There's another post by Ted Mabrey who's I think the head of commercial at Palantir, and that's a very good one too, to point with those too.

Ted Mabrey 还发表了另一篇文章，我认为他是 Palantir 的商业主管，这也是一篇非常好的文章，可以指出这些内容。

Lenny Rachitsky: So say someone was, "I want to try this sort of thing in my company," what would be a few bullet points if things they should get right?

Lenny Rachitsky：假设有人“我想在我的公司尝试这种事情”，如果他们应该做对的话，那么有哪些要点呢？

You're describing the spectrum of what people describe as forward deployed engineers, if they were to try to do this, what do you think they need to most do correctly for it to be successful?

您正在描述人们所描述的前沿部署工程师的范围，如果他们要尝试这样做，您认为他们最需要正确执行什么才能取得成功？

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: The key things that made our model work well, one, they were actually real engineers who could build product themselves.

Qureshi：使我们的模型运作良好的关键因素是，第一，他们实际上是真正的工程师，可以自己构建产品。

That's a very big difference.

这是一个非常大的区别。

I think a lot of the time companies will say, "This person's a forward deployed engineer," but actually they're mostly there to be more of a solutions architect, or they're not necessarily building anything to know, but they're just listening and trying to find a way of deploying the existing product.

我认为很多时候公司会说，“这个人是一个前沿部署的工程师”，但实际上他们主要是作为一个解决方案架构师，或者他们不一定要构建任何需要知道的东西，但他们只是在倾听并试图找到一种部署现有产品的方法。

They're not empowered to do new product.

他们无权开发新产品。

So the really radical thing Palantir said was, "No. Go in and if you need a completely new product to do this, you can go ahead and build it." And I think that's really the key difference.

所以 Palantir 所说的真正激进的事情是，“不。如果你需要一个全新的产品来做到这一点，你可以继续构建它。”我认为这确实是关键的区别。

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: The other stuff I've already mentioned, the value of being in person, and I think building close personal bonds with your customers.

库雷希：我已经提到过的其他内容，即面对面的价值，以及我认为与客户建立密切的个人联系。

I do think the better founders do this anyway.

我确实认为更好的创始人无论如何都会这样做。

They're on texting terms with their buyers, they become friends with them outside of work, and they see them as humans who they're trying to help.

他们与买家保持短信联系，在工作之外与买家成为朋友，并且将买家视为他们想要帮助的人。

I think this is very motivating, gaining a really deep understanding of the business that your customers are in and knowing how those dynamics work.

我认为这是非常激励人心的，可以真正深入地了解客户所处的业务，并了解这些动态是如何运作的。

So a simple example might be, say hospitals in America.

一个简单的例子可能是，美国的医院。

It's very counterintuitive to think of a hospital as a business.

将医院视为一家企业是非常违反直觉的。

People think of it as it's a place where you get healthcare, but actually if you view it the way a COO or CMO views it, it's going to look very, very different too.

人们认为它是一个获得医疗保健的地方，但实际上，如果你以首席运营官或首席营销官的方式看待它，它看起来也会非常非常不同。

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: As a very simple example, sorry, this is a little bit dark, but how restaurants want to turn over tables as fast as possible in order to maximize for the day?

库雷希：作为一个非常简单的例子，抱歉，这有点黑暗，但是餐厅如何希望尽可能快地翻桌以最大限度地提高一天的效率？

Hospitals actually want to do the same with patients.

医院实际上也希望对患者做同样的事情。

They would like to treat you and then get you out of a bed so they can free up the bed to get a new person in there.

他们希望对您进行治疗，然后让您起床，这样他们就可以腾出床来容纳新的人。

So that's not super intuitive, unless you think hard about how the revenue for that hospital works.

因此，这并不是非常直观，除非您认真思考该医院的收入如何运作。

But then once you think about it, you're like, "This has a bunch of problems associated with it." And you start to go into really interesting...

但一旦你想到这一点，你就会想，“这有很多与之相关的问题。”然后你开始进入非常有趣的......

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: ...

库雷希：……

problems associated with it, and you start to go in really interesting directions.

与之相关的问题，你就会开始朝着非常有趣的方向前进。

Lenny Rachitsky: There's just like the words and memes, and take you a long way working and understanding it.

Lenny Rachitsky：就像文字和模因一样，可以带你走很长的路来工作和理解它。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, so essentially the things you want to get right, make sure it's in person, make sure the person is technical, make sure they have a deep understanding of the business and the problems they're having.

Lenny Rachitsky：好的，所以基本上你想要做对的事情，确保是面对面的，确保这个人是技术人员，确保他们对业务和他们遇到的问题有深入的了解。

The technical piece is interesting with AI tools these days, making everyone technical in some sense.

如今，人工智能工具的技术部分很有趣，让每个人都在某种意义上变得技术化。

You could argue this is going to become more common, people can just open up Cursor, Windsurf and just start adding features.

你可能会说这会变得更加普遍，人们只需打开 Cursor、Windsurf 就可以开始添加功能。

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: I think this is a really interesting thesis you've just hit on, and I expect to see a lot more startups that take advantage of that insight.

库雷希：我认为这是您刚刚提出的一个非常有趣的论点，我希望看到更多的初创公司利用这一见解。

Lenny Rachitsky: Basically it makes forward deploying engineers cheaper.

Lenny Rachitsky：基本上，它使前沿部署工程师的成本降低。

Lenny Rachitsky: What is the current state of forward deploying engineers at Palantir?

Lenny Rachitsky：Palantir 前沿部署工程师的现状如何？

How much has it changed over the past few years?

过去几年发生了多大变化？

If you join now, is this still something you can do?

如果你现在加入，这还可以做吗？

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: Yeah, of course.

库雷希：是的，当然。

I should obviously emphasize that one, I left the company in 2023, and so this is just my personal view, I don't speak for them.

我显然应该强调一点，我在 2023 年离开了公司，所以这只是我个人的观点，我不代表他们。

I think that if you think about it, one of the metrics that the company had to measure its own success was essentially revenue per engineer, and so the more "product leverage" you had, the higher that number was.

我认为，如果你仔细想想，公司衡量自身成功的指标之一本质上是每位工程师的收入，因此你拥有的“产品杠杆”越多，这个数字就越高。

So if you had to throw a lot of people at every marginal problem, then you weren't doing so well at that because you're basically building a new thing every single time, and you are in effect a consulting business.

因此，如果你必须在每个边缘问题上投入很多人，那么你就做得不太好，因为你基本上每次都在构建一个新事物，而你实际上是一家咨询公司。

If on the other hand, every time you encounter a new customer, the product turns out to be relevant to them, then great, and so this product leverage metric was actually a very unique thing and kind of a North Star for the company for the whole time I was there.

另一方面，如果每次你遇到新客户时，产品都会与他们相关，那就太好了，所以这个产品杠杆指标实际上是一个非常独特的东西，在我在那里的整个时间里，它是公司的北极星。

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: If you reason that out, what that means is that in the early stage of the company, you will have a customer and then you might have five to 10 engineers working at that customer.

Qureshi：如果你推理出来，那就意味着在公司的早期阶段，你会有一个客户，然后你可能有 5 到 10 名工程师为该客户工作。

And so over time you want that ratio to change.

因此，随着时间的推移，您希望该比率发生变化。

So you want it to be each customer, because the product is so powerful, maybe AI coding's gotten a lot better, each customer you only need two people, and then maybe you actually get to a point where you can have one person looking after multiple customers.

所以你希望它是每个客户，因为产品太强大了，也许人工智能编码已经变得更好了，每个客户你只需要两个人，然后也许你实际上可以让一个人照顾多个客户。

And I think that's how the job has changed, is now it's a little bit more about you have multiple customers, maybe you're spending less deep time with each individual one of them, but it's a lot clearer what problem you're solving across multiple customers and you have more of a kind of defined offering.

我认为这就是工作发生的变化，现在更多的是关于你有多个客户，也许你花在每个客户身上的时间更少了，但你要跨多个客户解决什么问题要清楚得多，而且你有更多的一种明确的产品。

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: And so I do think that has been a bit of a change, but the company remains a very interesting and dynamic place to be.

库雷希：所以我确实认为这已经发生了一些变化，但公司仍然是一个非常有趣和充满活力的地方。

In some sense the story's only starting, because one lens through which you can view this company is they spent 20 years basically building the mother of all data foundations for every important institution in the world, and I guess what's very valuable now that AI models are out is proprietary data that isn't public.

从某种意义上说，这个故事才刚刚开始，因为你可以通过一个镜头来看待这家公司，他们花了 20 年的时间基本上为世界上每个重要机构构建了所有数据基础的基础，我想，既然人工智能模型已经问世，那么非常有价值的是不公开的专有数据。

Suddenly you have access to that and you are in a very privileged position to help your customers deploy AI in a way that makes them successful, and that solves real business problems.

突然之间，您就可以使用它，并且处于非常有利的地位，可以帮助您的客户以一种使他们成功的方式部署人工智能，并解决真正的业务问题。

That is essentially the bull thesis for this company and why it's probably going to 100X again.

这本质上是这家公司的牛市论点，也是它可能再次上涨 100 倍的原因。

And so it's still a really interesting time to join but I do think the nature of the ratio of people to a customer, for example, is one big difference now.

因此，这仍然是一个非常有趣的加入时机，但我确实认为，例如，人员与客户的比例的性质现在是一个很大的差异。

Lenny Rachitsky: Not investment advice, but it might 100X.

Lenny Rachitsky：不是投资建议，但可能会增加 100 倍。

I totally understand why that might happen.

我完全理解为什么会发生这种情况。

So let's talk about the data piece, you said that this was one of the secrets of Palantir's success, this early insight into the power of ingesting data, cleaning data, being able to analyze and work with it.

那么让我们来谈谈数据部分，你说这是 Palantir 成功的秘诀之一，这是对摄取数据、清理数据、分析和使用数据的力量的早期洞察。

What a marketing share there, just what they figured out about why this is so valuable, why it's so hard and how they achieved it?

那里有多么好的营销分享，他们到底想出了为什么这如此有价值、为什么如此困难以及他们是如何实现的？

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: I think it's just very obvious as soon as you step into a corporation and spend a couple of days there really, is you're like, all right, let's suppose your job is to increase sales, so the first thing you want to do is get a clear picture of what's going on.

库雷希：我认为，一旦你踏入一家公司并在那里呆了几天，你就会很明显地感觉到，好吧，让我们假设你的工作是增加销售额，所以你要做的第一件事就是清楚地了解正在发生的事情。

All right, so let me go and query the sales database.

好吧，那我去查询一下销售数据库。

Oh wait, where's the sales database?

哦等等，销售数据库在哪里？

I can't get access to this.

我无法访问此内容。

Okay, I need to file an access ticket.

好的，我需要提交访问票。

All right, now I have to wait one week.

好吧，现在我得等一个星期了。

And so everywhere we went, this was the big pain point, was we have to wait six to eight weeks just to get data access, and then when you do get data access, it's not like the data's in an easily queryable format, you actually really have to know what you're doing in order to get the right metrics out, and so on and so forth.

因此，无论我们走到哪里，这都是一个很大的痛点，我们必须等待六到八周才能获得数据访问权限，然后当您确实获得数据访问权限时，它不像数据采用易于查询的格式，您实际上必须知道自己在做什么才能获得正确的指标，等等。

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: And so it turned out like, okay, it's this iceberg analogy where the actual analysis is actually just the tip of the iceberg, it's kind of the last five or 10%, and the 95% before that is, I am gaining access to the data, I am cleaning the data, I'm joining the data, I'm normalizing it, putting it all in the same format.

Qureshi：所以结果就像是，好吧，这是一个冰山类比，实际的分析实际上只是冰山一角，它是最后的 5% 或 10%，而在此之前的 95% 是，我正在访问数据，我正在清理数据，我正在加入数据，我正在对其进行标准化，将其全部采用相同的格式。

And so once we spotted that, then it's like, okay, there's actually a lot of product to be built there just to make that process easier.

因此，一旦我们发现这一点，那么，好吧，实际上有很多产品需要在那里构建，只是为了让这个过程变得更容易。

People don't think of Palantir as this place where innovative new product and UX ideas come out, but I actually think it's been one of the most generative companies for that specifically in the last 20 years, it's just that most of that didn't see the light of day and so people don't know.

人们并不认为 Palantir 是创新产品和用户体验创意诞生的地方，但实际上我认为它是最有创造力的公司之一，特别是在过去 20 年里，只是其中大部分都没有看到曙光，所以人们不知道。

But if you look at the product primitives that they developed in order to make the things I just mentioned a lot easier, they're actually really valuable and interesting and could probably form the basis of independent companies themselves.

但如果你看看他们为了让我刚才提到的事情变得更容易而开发的产品原​​语，它们实际上非常有价值和有趣，并且可能构成独立公司本身的基础。

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: And so, yeah, it just took every single step of that process became much, much easier once there was a software solution around it.

Qureshi：所以，是的，一旦有了软件解决方案，这个过程的每一步都变得非常非常容易。

So if you talk about data ingestion, there's essentially a universal data adapter that's part of Foundry.

因此，如果您谈论数据摄取，那么本质上有一个通用数据适配器，它是 Foundry 的一部分。

It can read anything, so JDBC, S3 buckets, whatever you want.

它可以读取任何内容，例如 JDBC、S3 存储桶，无论您想要什么。

It allows us to look into the data, maybe preview the first 20 rows, and then it allows you when you're ready to set up a schedule and just pull it in on some cadence.

它允许我们查看数据，也许可以预览前 20 行，然后当您准备好设置计划时，它可以让您按照一定的节奏进行操作。

That process alone for an engineer used to take a long time, especially pre-Vibe coding, and managing all those cron jobs and doing this analytics, VM somewhere inside the customer's tenant was a huge pain.

对于工程师来说，这个过程过去就需要很长时间，尤其是 Vibe 之前的编码、管理所有这些 cron 作业并进行分析，在客户租户内的某个地方的 VM 是一个巨大的痛苦。

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: And so you productize that piece, then it's like, okay, once you have the data, it's like how do you actually join it?

库雷希：所以你将那部分产品化，然后就像，好吧，一旦你有了数据，就像你如何真正加入它一样？

What if you're non-technical?

如果你不懂技术怎么办？

Is there a way for a non-technical user to be able to join tables and see what the result is?

有没有办法让非技术用户能够连接表并查看结果是什么？

And so there's all these very fascinating business problems that, because I think the access was very difficult to get, and people hadn't really solved before, and so there was a lot of white space to do some product innovation.

因此，存在所有这些非常令人着迷的业务问题，因为我认为访问非常困难，而且人们以前没有真正解决过，因此有很多空白空间可以进行一些产品创新。

So now I would say Foundry's definitely the best data platform in the world just because it has all these different applications within it that solve these discrete parts.

所以现在我想说 Foundry 绝对是世界上最好的数据平台，因为它里面有所有这些不同的应用程序来解决这些离散的部分。

And it came out of this, years of painful experience, watching people have to clean data and join it and figure out what this table name meant and so on and so forth.

它源于多年的痛苦经历，看着人们必须清理数据并连接它并弄清楚这个表名的含义等等。

Lenny Rachitsky: You shared in your post this kind of evocative story of some people's jobs is just to gate keep the data.

Lenny Rachitsky：您在帖子中分享了这种令人回味的故事，其中一些人的工作只是为了控制数据。

They're there to give you access to this very valuable data within the organization, and how hard it is to get.

它们可以让您访问组织内这些非常有价值的数据，以及获取这些数据的难度。

That was a lot of this work, is just breaking through those political battles of like, "Okay, we need this data for the good of the company and took a lot of work." I guess anything there you want to add?

这是很多工作，只是突破那些政治斗争，比如“好吧，我们需要这些数据来维护公司的利益，并且需要做很多工作。”我想您还有什么要补充的吗？

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: It is, yeah.

库雷希：是的，是的。

It's a huge pain, and there are good reasons for it.

这是一个巨大的痛苦，而且有充分的理由。

It's not like folks are malicious here.

这里的人并不是恶意的。

If you're IT or if you're an InfoSec type person, then your goal is to prevent data breaches and to make sure that sensitive information doesn't spread too wide.

如果您是 IT 人员或 InfoSec 类型的人员，那么您的目标是防止数据泄露并确保敏感信息不会传播得太广。

And so what's the easiest way to do that?

那么最简单的方法是什么？

It's to lock the data down, basically be a gatekeeper for access.

它是锁定数据，基本上是访问的看门人。

I think where it got a little bit more interesting was where your skills are valuable and depend on you being the gatekeeper.

我认为更有趣的是你的技能很有价值，并且取决于你作为看门人。

So what I mean by that is let's say I'm the only guy who understands the way the sales calculation pipeline works and I write the SQL for it.

所以我的意思是，假设我是唯一了解销售计算管道工作方式并且我为其编写 SQL 的人。

All the requests from business SMEs come to me, I have a big queue of them, it takes me weeks to get through this queue.

所有来自中小企业的请求都来找我，我有一个很大的队列，我需要几周的时间才能完成这个队列。

I have a great job, I have great job security, and people depend on me.

我有一份很棒的工作，我有很好的工作保障，人们依赖我。

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: And so now along comes this company and they're like, "Hey, actually we want to make sales data available to everyone and we want to make it point and click." Suddenly you're like, "Hey, hang on, what am I going to do?" And so that's where I think there was a lot of difficulty and I always say people are like, what accounts as competitors?

库雷希：现在这家公司出现了，他们说，“嘿，实际上我们想让每个人都可以使用销售数据，我们想让它指向并点击。”突然你会想，“嘿，等一下，我该怎么办？”所以这就是我认为存在很多困难的地方，我总是说人们会问，作为竞争对手的账户是什么？

I don't think it's the ones that you would think of necessarily.

我认为您不一定会想到这些。

Palantir's biggest competitor is a company rolling its own solution, and so the biggest difference would just be a CIO saying, "I'm going to build my own data infrastructure, I'm going to own it, it's going to be on top of one of the hyperscalers, and we're all just going to do our own analytics ourselves." And what we came along with, which was quite disruptive to this model, was saying, "No, actually all your data is going to get ingested into this one platform and everybody in your company is going to use it." The trade-off is it's going to be really, really easy for everyone to do things.

Palantir 最大的竞争对手是一家推出自己的解决方案的公司，因此最大的区别只是 CIO 说：“我将构建自己的数据基础设施，我将拥有它，它将位于其中一个超大规模之上，而我们都将自己进行分析。”我们提出的对这一模式具有相当大的颠覆性的说法是：“不，实际上您的所有数据都将被吸收到这个平台中，并且公司中的每个人都将使用它。”代价是每个人做事都会变得非常非常容易。

But as you can imagine, some people weren't a huge fan of that model.

但正如你可以想象的那样，有些人并不是该模型的忠实粉丝。

Lenny Rachitsky: It feels like Glean is the biggest competitor to Palantir after I hear this, do you know about that company?

Lenny Rachitsky：听完这个消息，感觉 Glean 是 Palantir 最大的竞争对手，你了解那家公司吗？

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: I do, yeah, Glean looks amazing from the outside.

库雷希：我确实如此，是的，Glean 从外面看起来很棒。

So many differences there, I can totally see why you would say this, but-

那里有很多差异，我完全明白你为什么这么说，但是-

Lenny Rachitsky: Clearly a different use case but it feels like the reason they've been successful is they figured out a lot of this data ingestion, permissions, search stuff.

Lenny Rachitsky：显然是一个不同的用例，但感觉他们成功的原因是他们解决了很多数据摄取、权限、搜索问题。

I never thought of it that way.

我从来没有这样想过。

Lenny Rachitsky: Interesting.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：有趣。

Okay, I want to talk about hiring, you talked a bit about this.

好吧，我想谈谈招聘的问题，你也谈到了一些。

You're starting a company again, what are some of the key lessons you've learned from your time at Palantir when you are hiring people for your company?

您要再次创办一家公司，当您为公司招聘员工时，您从 Palantir 的经历中学到了哪些重要经验教训？

I don't know if you're actually hiring people yet, maybe when you may start hiring.

我不知道你们是否真的在招聘人员，也许什么时候开始招聘。

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: Yeah, we have six people at the moment, so a really reasonably small team.

库雷希：是的，我们目前有六个人，所以是一个相当小的团队。

I think with hiring, it's funny, man, there's so much hiring advice online and you read it and you're like, "Yeah, this is super obvious." And then when you live it, you're suddenly like, "Aah, this is why people say this." So a few simple examples are I think the thing that is really hard to find is somebody who really, really has a lot about doing the thing and will go that kind of extra 20%.

我认为在招聘方面，这很有趣，网上有很多招聘建议，你读完后会想，“是的，这非常明显。”然后当你经历它时，你突然会想，“啊，这就是人们这么说的原因。”举几个简单的例子，我认为真正很难找到的是那些真正非常热衷于做这件事并且会额外付出 20% 的人。

I think when you hire out, especially not to pick on them, but I think if you hired a right, it's like people want a 400K a year job, they would like to work a certain number of hours, they would like to ship some code and then go home, that's basically the model that you get accustomed to even if you don't intend to when you work at a big company.

我认为当你雇佣员工时，尤其不要挑剔他们，但我认为如果你雇佣了一个合适的人，就像人们想要一份年薪 40 万的工作，他们想要工作一定的时间，他们想要发送一些代码然后回家，这基本上是你习惯的模式，即使你在大公司工作时不打算这样做。

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: And so if you hire out of that for a really small startup, it can be really challenging because a lot of your success as a startup depends on each individual person being like, "No, I'm really going to, I'm work this evening if that's what it takes to get this thing working, and I'm not just going to check my boxes, I'm actually going to look towards what is the real outcome that this business is trying to achieve." And everything I'm saying feels kind of obvious, but when you actually feel that difference between somebody who's just checking the boxes and somebody who's kind of an animal in this way, they'll actually go and pursue and accomplish the end outcome, that difference is very, very big and it matters so much for your first 20 people.

库雷希：所以，如果你为一家规模很小的初创公司招聘员工，这可能会非常具有挑战性，因为作为一家初创公司，你的成功在很大程度上取决于每个人的想法，“不，我真的要去，如果这就是让这件事运转所需的条件，我今晚就开始工作，我不会只是检查我的方框，我实际上会看看这家公司想要实现的真正结果是什么。”我所说的一切都感觉很明显，但是当你真正感受到那些只是勾选方框的人和像这样的动物的人之间的区别时，他们实际上会去追求并实现最终结果，这种区别是非常非常大的，这对于你的前 20 个人来说非常重要。

And there's no science to finding these people.

没有科学可以找到这些人。

It's not like you can just put somebody who cares about outcomes in your JD and then suddenly you'll get all these people applying.

这并不是说你可以把一个关心结果的人放在你的 JD 中，然后突然间你就会得到所有这些人的申请。

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: So then it's like, okay, well how do you screen for that and how do you find those types of people?

库雷希：那么，好吧，你如何筛选这些人以及如何找到这些类型的人？

And so that's where it gets really interesting.

这就是它真正有趣的地方。

I think that's where the mission alignment comes in, and so you do have to find people who, for what you are doing, have this extra maybe private reason to care about it a little bit more than the average person.

我认为这就是使命一致性的用武之地，所以你必须找到那些对于你正在做的事情有额外的、可能是私人原因比普通人更关心它的人。

So I think for Palantir, they did hire a lot of vets, for example, or maybe people who were a little bit more patriotic or pro-America than the average tech employee, and those people had an extra reason to Palantir and an extra reason to try that little bit harder.

所以我认为，对于 Palantir 来说，他们确实雇佣了很多退伍军人，或者可能是比普通科技员工更爱国或亲美的人，这些人有一个额外的理由选择 Palantir，也有一个额外的理由去努力一点。

And so what I'm doing is a little bit more in the kind of medical and health space, and so I think people who have themselves had experiences with this system have maybe had relatives go through difficult experiences with things like cancer or whatever it is.

所以我正在做的更多是在医疗和健康领域，所以我认为那些自己有过这个系统经验的人可能有亲戚经历过像癌症或其他什么的困难经历。

They're just that extra bit motivated to really care about the thing you're trying to do and then work that little bit harder, and so I think aggressively filtering early on to things like mission fit, how much have you cared about stuff in the past, and what's an example.

他们只是有额外的动力去真正关心你想做的事情，然后更加努力地工作，所以我认为尽早积极地过滤诸如任务契合度之类的事情，你过去有多关心一些事情，以及举个例子。

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: You ask questions like, what's the hardest you've ever worked to get something done and why?

库雷希：你会问这样的问题：为了完成某件事，你最努力的是什么？为什么？

And that does differentiate a lot of people, a lot of people don't actually have a great answer to that.

这确实让很多人与众不同，很多人实际上对此没有很好的答案。

So I would say that's been a really big learning, is it's less about testing for the right skills, yes, that's important, two it's much more about just who has that extra 20%.

所以我想说，这是一次非常大的学习，不是要测试正确的技能，是的，这很重要，第二，更重要的是谁拥有额外的 20%。

Lenny Rachitsky: That is really interesting, everything you've shared is essentially around motivation, and drive, and passion, and kind of just commitment to working on this intently, and it's almost like a second thought of just like, oh, also they're really smart and skilled at stuff.

Lenny Rachitsky：这真的很有趣，你分享的一切本质上都是围绕动机、动力和激情，以及专注于这件事的承诺，这几乎就像是再想一想，哦，他们也非常聪明，擅长做事。

It feels like that's just table stakes and this is actually what makes the difference in your experience.

感觉这只是赌注，而这实际上是让您的体验与众不同的原因。

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: Yeah, I totally agree, and I think it's different for every business.

库雷希：是的，我完全同意，而且我认为每个企业的情况都不同。

So I think if you're in a space like B2B SaaS where maybe it's a little harder to tell the story of like, oh, this is so mission-critical, whatever, there are other ways of getting at this thing.

因此，我认为，如果您处于 B2B SaaS 这样的领域，那么讲述这样的故事可能会有点困难，哦，这是非常关键的任务，无论如何，还有其他方法可以实现这一目标。

So for example, I know a lot of people, again, it's a little played out now, but I know a lot of people who for sales teams, they will explicitly go for people who were professional athletes or played sports in college, and it's like, okay, what does that test for?

举例来说，我认识很多人，现在有点过时了，但我认识很多人，对于销售团队来说，他们会明确选择职业运动员或在大学参加体育运动的人，就像，好吧，这测试了什么？

It's like you are very, very disciplined, you're very, very goals and numbers oriented and you're willing to just work really, really hard.

就好像你非常非常自律，非常非常以目标和数字为导向，而且你愿意非常非常努力地工作。

And so there's all these kind of lateral ways of getting at these qualities that I think you just have to be intentional about as a founder.

因此，我认为作为创始人必须有意识地采用所有这些横向方法来获得这些品质。

As a personal example, I'm a runner and so I actually love meeting fellow runners and I kind of joke like, "Oh, maybe I'll go higher from run clubs or something like that."

举个个人例子，我是一名跑步者，所以我真的很喜欢结识其他跑步者，我会开玩笑说，“哦，也许我会通过跑步俱乐部或类似的东西走得更高。”

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: But it's just same with I play a lot of chess, I love meeting chess players.

库雷希：但这和我经常下棋一样，我喜欢结识棋手。

I'm not necessarily saying that's the right kind of hire for me, but I think having this thing of here are some traits that seem uncorrelated, but which actually give you good signal to this person's personality, those are actually really important.

我不一定说这对我来说是正确的雇用方式，但我认为拥有这里的东西是一些看似不相关的特征，但实际上给了你很好的信号来了解这个人的个性，这些实际上非常重要。

The last thing I'll say just as a funny illustration of that concept is I think Max Levchin tells the story of somebody interviewing at PayPal early on and he passed all the skill interviews and then it just got to the final round and he said something about liking to shoot hoops, like he liked to play basketball, and they were like instant reject.

我要说的最后一件事是这个概念的一个有趣的例证，我认为马克斯·莱夫钦（Max Levchin）讲述了一个人在 PayPal 早期面试的故事，他通过了所有技能面试，然后进入最后一轮，他说了一些关于喜欢投篮的事情，就像他喜欢打篮球一样，他们就像立即拒绝了。

The vibe here was like if you're not a mega Linux nerd, hardcore computer person, then we don't want you here, even if you actually passed all the tests just because you like to shoot hoops.

这里的氛围就像如果你不是一个超级 Linux 书呆子、铁杆计算机人，那么我们不希望你来这里，即使你实际上只是因为喜欢投篮而通过了所有测试。

Now whether that was the right call or the wrong call, don't know, but that's an example of what I'm talking about.

现在，我不知道这是正确的决定还是错误的决定，但这就是我所说的一个例子。

Lenny Rachitsky: I think that's a great echo back.

Lenny Rachitsky：我认为这是一个很好的回响。

People hearing this may be like, "What the hell?

听到这句话的人可能会说：“到底是什么？

How dare they do that?" But this is exactly what you said at the beginning of our conversation, that like an approach to building a generational business is to be very clear about who this is not for, and that's okay, it's your company, not everyone needs to work there.

他们怎么敢这么做？”但这正是您在我们谈话开始时所说的，就像建立代际业务的方法一样，要非常清楚这不适合谁，没关系，这是您的公司，而不是每个人都需要在那里工作。

And it's almost saving them time because they might realize this isn't for me, this isn't the people I want to be around necessarily.

这几乎节省了他们的时间，因为他们可能会意识到这不适合我，这不一定是我想要的人。

So I think it's important to see that side of it, is it's your business, it's important to be clear about who is a good fit for the company and who's not.

所以我认为重要的是要看到它的另一面，这是你的事，重要的是要清楚谁适合公司，谁不适合。

Speaking of that, let's talk about product management for a bit.

说到这里，我们来谈谈产品管理。

I know Palantir PMs are not traditional product managers.

我知道 Palantir PM 不是传统的产品经理。

I imagine people have the title, Product Manager at Palantir, okay, so if so, as far as you understand what's the difference between say a PM at Palantir versus a traditional PM say at a FANG company?

我想人们有 Palantir 产品经理的头衔，好吧，如果是这样，据您了解，Palantir 的 PM 与 FANG 公司的传统 PM 之间有什么区别？

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: Palantir was, as far as I remember, quite anti-PM for a while and eventually we did need them because we just got more serious about product testing.

Qureshi：据我所知，Palantir 有一段时间相当反对 PM，最终我们确实需要它们，因为我们对产品测试变得更加认真。

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: The big difference or one big difference I noticed was that they were extremely careful about only making people PMs who had first proven themselves out as forward deploying engineers.

Qureshi：我注意到的一个很大的区别是，他们非常谨慎地只让那些首先证明自己是前沿部署工程师的人担任产品经理。

You basically could not become a PM any other way.

基本上你不可能以任何其他方式成为产品经理。

So as an example, when I mentioned earlier the thing that we built for the plane factory, the person who was managing that deployment, she later became the PM for ontology, and it was just because she'd kind of proven her method in the field.

举个例子，当我之前提到我们为飞机工厂建造的东西时，负责管理该部署的人后来成为本体的 PM，这只是因为她在现场证明了自己的方法。

And the reason for that's pretty simple, it's going to be someone who understand how customers work and has that customer empathy, and it's going to be someone who has this drive to get things done because that's what BD selected for.

原因很简单，这个人必须了解客户的工作方式并具有客户同理心，并且必须有动力完成工作，因为这就是 BD 选择的原因。

I think the failure mode that they were very, very averse to in traditional PMs was this kind of Google Docs syndrome of like, okay, I'm going to write my product requirement documents, and I'm going to manage it in this very sort of sane, rational way I think, so the company was really rigorous about that.

我认为他们在传统 PM 中非常非常厌恶的失败模式是这种 Google Docs 综合症，就像，好吧，我要写我的产品需求文档，我要以我认为的这种理智、理性的方式来管理它，所以公司对此非常严格。

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: And so basically PMs were almost always internal promotions and they always came from BD.

Qureshi：所以基本上 PM 几乎都是内部晋升，而且他们总是来自 BD。

I am not aware of a single case where we took somebody who was a PM at a place like Google, which produces many excellent PMs and hired them successfully into Palantir, it's just a very different vibe.

我不知道有哪一个案例是我们把在 Google 这样的地方担任 PM 的人带入 Palantir 的，Google 培养了许多优秀的 PM，并成功地将他们聘用到 Palantir，这只是一种非常不同的氛围。

So I think that was one thing.

所以我认为这是一回事。

This is maybe more of a classic PM trait, but you just had to be either an engineer yourself or extremely good at working with engineers, and the ones I saw who succeeded the most were just best friends with their engineering team.

这可能更像是一个典型的 PM 特质，但你必须要么自己是一名工程师，要么非常擅长与工程师合作，而我看到的最成功的人只是与他们的工程团队最好的朋友。

And the team would always just be like one, it was called the group pm and then it would be a lot of very, very good engineers.

团队总是像一个团队，被称为小组，然后会有很多非常非常优秀的工程师。

And basically the success or failure mode was just do the engineers and trust you?

基本上成功或失败的模式就是工程师是否信任你？

I mentioned before Palantir how is very almost disagreeable personalities, and so if you didn't gain the trust of engineering team pretty fast, you didn't last very long.

我之前提到过 Palantir 的性格几乎令人不快，所以如果你没有很快获得工程团队的信任，你就不会坚持很长时间。

Lenny Rachitsky: I think we've cracked the question of why are Palantir PM's so successful?

Lenny Rachitsky：我认为我们已经解决了为什么 Palantir PM 如此成功的问题？

First of all, the hiring bar is just basically hiring for leaders in a lot of different ways, to this, I don't know, forge for founders where they're working with a company solving a real problem, building a real product that makes money, and then those are the people that become the PMs at Palantir and then they go on to leave and that's why 30% of them end up starting companies, I'm surprised it's not higher, or become first PMs at other companies or heads of product.

首先，招聘标准基本上只是以很多不同的方式招聘领导者，对此，我不知道，锻造创始人，他们与一家公司合作解决一个真正的问题，打造一个真正赚钱的产品，然后这些人成为 Palantir 的 PM，然后他们继续离开，这就是为什么 30% 的人最终创办了公司，我很惊讶这个数字并没有更高，或者成为其他公司的第一任 PM 或产品负责人。

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: Yeah, absolutely, it's crazy.

库雷希：是的，绝对，这太疯狂了。

I was part of a pretty small team within Palantir, I think it was 20 to 25 people when I joined, and I think at least six of them now are either unicorn or just pre-unicorn founders from that group of 25 people, which is actually a crazy ratio.

我是 Palantir 内部一个相当小的团队的一员，我认为我加入时有 20 到 25 人，我认为现在在这 25 个人中至少有 6 个人是独角兽或只是前独角兽创始人，这实际上是一个疯狂的比例。

And then a bunch more have become founders recently at an earlier stage, so yeah, there's all these little pockets of excellence and it's been really interesting to see.

然后还有更多人最近在早期阶段成为创始人，所以是的，有所有这些优秀的小领域，看到它真的很有趣。

I think the other thing that's driving that a little bit is when you leave, it's just such an interesting company to work at that I think the retention numbers were actually very high for that company.

我认为另一件推动这一点的事情是当你离开时，这是一家非常有趣的公司，我认为该公司的保留率实际上非常高。

People would often stay a lot longer than maybe the average Valley tenure.

人们的停留时间往往比硅谷的平均任期长得多。

And so when you left, it was really this decision of just something very specific is pulling you and you want to kind of play the next level of the game, and so it was very unusual for someone to leave and then join maybe a more traditional tech company.

因此，当你离开时，实际上是一些非常具体的决定在拉动你，你想要玩游戏的下一个级别，所以有人离开然后加入一家更传统的科技公司是很不寻常的。

It's sort of like you're either going to go become a founder or why would you leave when there's so many interesting different things to work on?

这有点像你要么成为一名创始人，要么当有这么多有趣的不同事情要做时你为什么要离开？

And I know that sounds a little culty, but that's what everyone thinks.

我知道这听起来有点邪教，但这就是每个人的想法。

Lenny Rachitsky: I could totally see that.

Lenny Rachitsky：我完全明白这一点。

A lot of people that left Airbnb have never found something more meaningful, it's just hard, especially if you're early.

很多离开 Airbnb 的人从未找到过更有意义的事情，这很困难，尤其是如果你很早的话。

There's a stat that I didn't share that I think is really interesting, and when you look at YC founders and where they've come from, I think you maybe shared in your post that there's more YC ex-Palantir founders than there are ex-Google founders in spite of Google being something like 50 times bigger sample size.

有一个我没有分享的统计数据，我认为它真的很有趣，当你看看 YC 创始人和他们来自哪里时，我想你可能在你的帖子中分享了 YC 前 Palantir 创始人比前 Google 创始人还要多，尽管 Google 的样本量大了大约 50 倍。

Lenny Rachitsky: Let's talk about the moral question of Palantir.

Lenny Rachitsky：我们来谈谈 Palantir 的道德问题。

A lot of people probably seeing the title of this episode, hearing this, will not be excited about Palantir being highlighted and promoted, a lot of people kind of disagree with what Palantir's doing.

很多人可能看到这一集的标题，听到这个，不会因为 Palantir 被强调和推广而感到兴奋，很多人不同意 Palantir 所做的事情。

Builds products that kill people in some ways, they work with governments they don't agree with.

制造以某种方式杀人的产品，他们与他们不同意的政府合作。

I know you wrote a really insightful way of how you approach this question when you decided to work at Palantir and how you see people tackle with this, can you just talk about the framework that you landed on and how you thought about this yourself?

我知道你写了一篇非常有见地的文章，讲述了当你决定在 Palantir 工作时如何处理这个问题，以及你如何看待人们如何解决这个问题，你能谈谈你所采用的框架以及你自己是如何思考这个问题的吗？

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: Yeah, it's a really interesting topic, it's definitely very nuanced.

库雷希：是的，这是一个非常有趣的话题，它绝对非常微妙。

I think what I was trying to say in that post was a couple of things.

我想我在那篇文章中想说的是几件事。

One was that there was a lot of upside there.

一是那里有很多好处。

So I worked on the US Covid response, I have friends who worked on Operation Warp Speed, and these are all things that I think saved a lot of lives, and I was pretty focused while I was working at NIH on cancer research.

所以我参与了美国新冠疫情应对工作，我有朋友参与了曲速行动，我认为这些都挽救了很多生命，而且当我在美国国立卫生研究院从事癌症研究时，我非常专注。

And so to me, these were just obviously good things and you couldn't do them anywhere else, and so that was alone a reason to stay.

所以对我来说，这些显然是好事，你在其他地方做不到，所以这就是留下来的理由。

The question I had in that post was, well, okay, there are definitely going to be other pieces of this that people object to.

我在那篇文章中提出的问题是，好吧，肯定会有人们反对的其他内容。

So during the 2016 to 2020 era, it became a pretty common thing to go into work in New York and you'd have people protesting outside your office or doing all kinds of things.

因此，在 2016 年至 2020 年期间，去纽约工作已经成为一件很常见的事情，人们会在你的办公室外抗议或做各种各样的事情。

And so there was this question of, well, is this okay?

所以就出现了这样的问题：这样可以吗？

And I think the point I was trying to make was it's rare that disengagement is the correct answer, and I think it's more recognized now, but especially then it went a bit too far.

我想我想表达的观点是，脱离接触很少是正确的答案，而且我认为现在人们更加认可这一点，但尤其是在那时它有点太过分了。

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: So the famous example here is Google kind of disengaging with a Pentagon AI project just because some people felt that working with the Pentagon was itself morally bad.

库雷希：这里著名的例子是谷歌退出五角大楼人工智能项目，只是因为有些人认为与五角大楼合作本身在道德上是不好的。

I think that's a way to sort of the left of what the median American would say, I think the median American would say it's fine to work on defense stuff within reason and assuming you're doing largely good things, and so there was just this kind of almost arbitrage there at some point of just hang on, it's not like working on defense is inherently evil, it's actually a pretty interesting thing.

我认为这是一种中位数美国人所说的左派方式，我认为中位数美国人会说，在合理范围内从事国防工作是很好的，并假设你在做大部分好事，所以在某个时候就存在这种几乎套利的情况，坚持下去，这并不是说从事国防工作本质上是邪恶的，这实际上是一件非常有趣的事情。

And then there's this question of, well, would you rather be in the room and making this better or not?

然后还有一个问题，嗯，你愿意在房间里让事情变得更好吗？

And so I'm struggling with how much I can share here, but as a simple example, if you're doing even a workflow, which I think many people would not be super comfortable with, let's say you're targeting somebody for some kind of strike.

因此，我正在努力思考我可以在这里分享多少内容，但作为一个简单的例子，如果你正在做一个工作流程，我认为很多人对此不会感到非常舒服，假设你正在针对某人进行某种罢工。

If you compare the way it's done now to maybe the way it was done in 2010, it's going to be a lot more targeted, it's going to be a lot more accurate, and so you've actually improved that process and reduced the chance of error.

如果你将现在的做法与 2010 年的做法进行比较，你会发现它会更有针对性，也会更加准确，因此你实际上改进了该流程并减少了出错的机会。

Maybe you should feel good about that, right?

也许你应该对此感觉良好，对吧？

Now, that is a bullet many people are not willing to bite.

现在，这是一颗很多人都不愿意咬的子弹。

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: I didn't work on the defense side of the company myself, but I think you have to be okay with these kinds of grade zones and actually actively thinking about what you are doing.

库雷希：我自己并没有在公司的防守方面工作，但我认为你必须适应这些等级区，并真正积极地思考你在做什么。

And that doesn't mean that it's always the right thing to do to work in a defense company.

这并不意味着在国防公司工作总是正确的。

Maybe we go into a very dark future and we start being the bad guys in some ways, and then it's probably not a great idea to work at a defense company.

也许我们进入了一个非常黑暗的未来，我们开始在某些方面成为坏人，然后在国防公司工作可能不是一个好主意。

So it's a shifting landscape but I kind of felt pretty strongly that a lot of people in tech just didn't want to think about this at all.

所以这是一个不断变化的格局，但我强烈地感觉到科技界的很多人根本不想考虑这个问题。

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: So you have engineers now who are working on optimizing short form videos for higher engagement, and you sort of want to say to them like, "Hey, are you thinking about what this is doing to the brains of young children?" Or "Have you seen an 11-year-old kind of scrolling something for five hours and do you think this is a good thing?" And I think people don't want to think about this stuff too much.

库雷希：现在工程师正在致力于优化短视频以提高参与度，你想对他们说，“嘿，你在想这对幼儿的大脑有什么影响吗？”或者“你见过一个 11 岁的孩子连续五个小时滚动某样东西吗？你认为这是一件好事吗？”我认为人们不想过多考虑这个问题。

I'm not saying I know the answer, but there was almost this refusal to look at what tech was doing from a political lens for a very long time.

我并不是说我知道答案，但很长一段时间以来，人们几乎拒绝从政治角度来看待科技正在做什么。

It was just like, "Hey, let us play with our toys, let us sit in our little park, and don't bother us, and we're just going to build cool stuff and launch it."

就像，“嘿，让我们玩我们的玩具，让我们坐在我们的小公园里，不要打扰我们，我们只是要建造很酷的东西并推出它。”

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: And 2025, we're in a very, very different state of the world, tech is involved in politics now, and politics basically came to tech.

库雷希：到 2025 年，我们正处于一个非常非常不同的世界状态，科技现在介入了政治，而政治基本上也涉及到科技。

There's this famous image of Mark Zuckerberg, he's sitting in Congress and he kind of looks very pale, and he's like, "Why have they dragged me in here again?" But I think tech went through this journey of, oh, we're suddenly becoming important now, oh, we're really, really important now, oh, we better stop playing this game of politics.

有一张马克·扎克伯格的著名照片，他坐在国会里，看上去脸色非常苍白，他想，“为什么他们又把我拖到这里来了？”但我认为科技经历了这样的旅程，哦，我们现在突然变得重要，哦，我们现在真的非常重要，哦，我们最好停止玩这种政治游戏。

And so I think what I'm saying now is a lot more consensus than it was 10 years ago, but at the time, the feeling was just like, "Look what we are doing is political, so you better engage with that."

所以我认为我现在所说的比十年前有更多的共识，但当时的感觉就像是，“看看我们正在做的事情是政治性的，所以你最好参与其中。”

Lenny Rachitsky: I think when this became really real for a lot of people is with the Ukraine War, the government's running out of certain vehicles and ammunition, we're just not able to produce it, and then we're like, "Oh, thank God for a company like Anduril and all these other tech companies that are actually ahead and keeping us ahead." I think the only reason the US is ahead of that...

Lenny Rachitsky：我认为，当这对很多人来说真正成为现实是在乌克兰战争中，政府耗尽了某些车辆和弹药，我们只是无法生产它们，然后我们就像，“哦，感谢上帝有像 Anduril 这样的公司以及所有其他实际上处于领先地位并让我们保持领先的科技公司。”我认为美国领先的唯一原因......

Lenny Rachitsky: And keeping us ahead.

Lenny Rachitsky：让我们保持领先。

I think the only reason the US is ahead of China and the space race is because SpaceX just is one company that just has been doing this for a long time.

我认为美国在太空竞赛中领先于中国的唯一原因是 SpaceX 是一家长期从事这一领域的公司。

So I think a lot of people have kind of realized, okay, maybe we need these things.

所以我认为很多人已经意识到，好吧，也许我们需要这些东西。

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: Right.

库雷希：对。

And I would make this argument as well, it's like people are like, well, how can you feel good about working in defense?

我也会提出这个论点，就像人们会说，嗯，你怎么能对防守工作感觉良好呢？

And it's like, well, you're not going to feel great if China invades Taiwan, actually, you're not going to.

就好像，如果中国入侵台湾，你不会感觉很好，事实上，你不会的。

I think you are probably also not going to like that outcome.

我想你可能也不会喜欢这个结果。

So we do just live in this world where you do need to build up deterrents to these things and they better be good.

所以我们确实生活在这个世界上，你确实需要对这些事情建立威慑力，而且它们最好是好的。

So to me, it didn't feel that difficult of a question.

所以对我来说，这个问题并不觉得那么困难。

I think when you zoom into particular things, they can be very difficult questions and there have been a bunch of those in the last couple of years.

我认为当你仔细研究特定的事情时，它们可能是非常困难的问题，并且在过去几年中已经出现了很多这样的问题。

But yeah, again, disengagement isn't the answer.

但是，是的，再次强调，脱离接触并不是答案。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。

And again, it's not for everyone.

再说一遍，它并不适合所有人。

I think that's an important kind of theme through this conversation is some companies ...

我认为这次对话的一个重要主题是一些公司......

like, to build ...

比如，建造...

sometimes to build a generational, really successful company, you need to turn some people off because that's what brings in the best talent oftentimes.

有时，要建立一家真正成功的公司，你需要解雇一些人，因为这往往会带来最优秀的人才。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

Just a few more questions.

还有几个问题。

Kind of like stepping back a little bit.

有点像退一步。

You're building a company again.

你又要建立一家公司了。

What are a few core pieces of advice that you're bringing to your new startup that will inform how you build this company, from your experience at Palantir?

根据您在 Palantir 的经验，您为您的新初创公司提供了哪些核心建议，这些建议将指导您如何建立这家公司？

We talked about a lot of stuff.

我们谈论了很多事情。

Is there anything, I don't know if there are three things that you think are like, "I'm definitely going to do these things this way because it worked really well at Palantir."

有没有什么，我不知道你是否认为有三件事是这样的，“我肯定会这样做，因为它在 Palantir 效果非常好。”

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: One thing is probably just really fast iteration cycles.

Qureshi：一件事可能是非常快的迭代周期。

So placing a lot of bets and then being really rigorous about just going through that cycle very soon.

因此，我们下了很多赌注，然后非常严格地很快就经历了这个周期。

I have this principles, and one of the things on there is basically saying EOP successes goes up the more bets you make, and it's sort of a function of how many bets you make and the probability of success of those individual bets, right?

我有这个原则，其中一件事基本上是说，你下的赌注越多，EOP 的成功率就会越高，这有点取决于你下的赌注数量以及这些单个赌注的成功概率，对吗？

And so one easy way to almost guarantee that you'll hit something is just to make a lot of bets and then just kind of cycle through them very quickly.

因此，几乎可以保证您会击中目标的一种简单方法就是进行大量投注，然后快速循环投注。

Now, obviously this is difficult, often this question of, well, is this bet actually failing or are we quitting too soon, kind of thing.

现在，显然这很困难，通常会出现这样的问题：这个赌注是否真的失败了，或者我们是否太早放弃了，之类的事情。

But that's kind of one principle I take, is just test this thing very early.

但这是我采取的一个原则，就是尽早测试这个东西。

You know, like the classic "why feed, why see" thing is just when you take something to a customer, ask them to pay you a lot of money and then find a new problem.

你知道，就像经典的“为什么要喂，为什么要看”一样，当你把东西交给顾客，要求他们付给你很多钱，然后发现一个新问题时。

Don't wait three weeks, which is what every founding team typically does because you don't have that kind of time.

不要等待三周，这是每个创始团队通常都会做的事情，因为你没有那样的时间。

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: I do think the importance of just having a really tight, distinctive internal culture and building a strong feeling of trust within a team is really important.

库雷希：我确实认为拥有一个非常严格、独特的内部文化并在团队内部建立强烈的信任感非常重要。

And kind of like you mentioned with Airbnb, and people definitely felt this at Palantir, there was this feeling of like, well, you worked here, you must be good.

就像你在 Airbnb 上提到的那样，人们在 Palantir 确实感受到了这一点，有一种感觉，嗯，你在这里工作，你一定很优秀。

I trust you, and all of that.

我相信你，以及这一切。

And I think it's so important to create that and you kind of know that feeling.

我认为创造这种感觉非常重要，你知道那种感觉。

That's what ...

就是这样...

like, people ask me, should I go work at place X or should I just go be a founder straightaway?

比如，人们问我，我应该去 X 地方工作，还是应该直接成为创始人？

I don't know the answer for everyone, but I will say one of the benefits of working at a place like that is you just have all these internal benchmarks now for, okay, this is what this should feel like, and if it doesn't feel like that, we're off.

我不知道每个人的答案，但我想说，在这样的地方工作的好处之一是，你现在有了所有这些内部基准，好吧，这就是应该的感觉，如果感觉不是那样，我们就出发了。

And I can't imagine not having those benchmarks and just kind of having to figure it all out.

我无法想象如果没有这些基准，就必须弄清楚一切。

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: So yeah, I think that thing, too, is just distinctive, internal, strong team culture.

库雷希：是的，我认为这也是独特的、内部的、强大的团队文化。

And then I think for me, think three is just working with a really messy part of the real world.

然后我想对我来说，认为三只是在处理现实世界中非常混乱的部分。

So I kind of joked when I left, like, I am excited to just do pure software.

所以当我离开时我开玩笑说，我很高兴只做纯软件。

I'm excited to, I don't know, I want to build an ID or something and just not have a support email even and all of that.

我很兴奋，我不知道，我想建立一个 ID 或其他东西，但甚至没有支持电子邮件等等。

But it turned out, look, my comparative advantage in a lot of ways was the networks I'd built and the experience I'd had in engaging with the messy parts of the world.

但事实证明，我在很多方面的相对优势是我建立的网络以及我在与世界混乱地区打交道时所获得的经验。

And they do need technology a lot, right?

他们确实非常需要技术，对吧？

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: There's this horrifying thought I have sometimes of just like, maybe we'll get ATI in the next two years and the healthcare sector will still be broken and it will still be impossible to afford rent in New York City and build houses and all these things.

库雷希：我有时会有一个可怕的想法，也许我们会在未来两年内获得 ATI，而医疗保健行业仍然会受到破坏，而且仍然无法在纽约市负担租金和建造房屋等所有东西。

And that may well become true.

这很可能会成为现实。

And so I think it's important to engage with those parts of the world too, even though they're really, really challenging.

因此，我认为与世界这些地区的接触也很重要，尽管它们确实非常具有挑战性。

And I think the really nice thing about LLMs is that actually, there's so many workflows now that are accessible to you as a tech founder and people are somehow more open to working with tech companies than they ever were before.

我认为法学硕士的真正好处在于，实际上，作为科技创始人，现在有很多工作流程可供你使用，而且人们比以前更愿意与科技公司合作。

Selling into the sectors of the economy in 2015, incredibly hard.

2015 年，向经济领域进行销售非常困难。

I think now post the ChatGPT moment, people are willing to give chances to small startups that they weren't willing to do previously.

我认为现在在 ChatGPT 时刻之后，人们愿意给小型初创公司提供他们以前不愿意做的机会。

As you mentioned earlier, the cost of doing things like forward-deployed engineering has fallen by maybe five to 10 x now at least.

正如您之前提到的，前沿部署工程等工作的成本现在至少下降了 5 到 10 倍。

And so there's a lot of new possibilities and I'm excited to engage with the best.

因此，存在很多新的可能性，我很高兴能与最优秀的人合作。

Lenny Rachitsky: Wow, that is some alpha right there that you're finding, that some of these very large organizations are more open to working with startups, because classically, investors don't want to invest in companies that are going after healthcare companies and governments and things like that.

Lenny Rachitsky：哇，这就是你发现的一些阿尔法，其中一些非常大的组织更愿意与初创公司合作，因为传统上，投资者不想投资于那些追逐医疗保健公司和政府之类的公司。

So it is really interesting actually to hear.

所以实际上听到这个消息真的很有趣。

Lenny Rachitsky: I'm going to mirror back the tips you just shared, and there's actually a secondary tip that I think is the more interesting piece.

Lenny Rachitsky：我将回顾一下您刚刚分享的技巧，实际上还有一个我认为更有趣的第二个技巧。

So the first thing you're taking away is iterate quickly, but I love your tip of ask for lots of money quickly, early, to see if it's an actual idea that people will pay lots of money for.

所以你要拿走的第一件事就是快速迭代，但我喜欢你的建议，即尽早、快速地索要大量资金，看看这是否是人们愿意花很多钱的实际想法。

And if not, move on.

如果没有，请继续。

I love that.

我喜欢那个。

Lenny Rachitsky: The other is build a very distinct culture, but the piece you share there that I love even more is this idea of knowing what a high bar looks like, knowing what awesome A plus people look like, and you need to work at a company like Palantir to actually see that.

Lenny Rachitsky：另一个是建立一种非常独特的文化，但你在那里分享的我更喜欢的一点是，知道高标准是什么样子，知道优秀的 A+ 人才是什么样子，你需要在像 Palantir 这样的公司工作才能真正看到这一点。

So the advice there I feel is just work at a company that is amazing, first, with the best talent, to understand what that should look like, plus you build a network of those folks.

因此，我的建议是，在一家很棒的公司工作，首先，拥有最优秀的人才，了解公司应该是什么样子，然后建立一个由这些人组成的网络。

So I think that's really interesting.

所以我认为这真的很有趣。

Lenny Rachitsky: And then the other pieces of advice you're pulling away is work on really hard, messy problems because that's where the biggest opportunities are, and it's sounding like this is the easiest time to actually do that.

Lenny Rachitsky：然后你放弃的其他建议是解决真正困难、混乱的问题，因为那是最大的机会所在，而且听起来现在是最容易真正做到这一点的时候。

Amazing.

惊人的。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

I'm going to take us to a recurring theme on this podcast called AI Corner.

我将带我们了解这个播客中反复出现的主题，称为“人工智能角”。

And what we do in AI Corner is we share some way that ..

我们在人工智能角所做的就是分享一些方法......

and this is you sharing ...

这是你分享的...

some way that you've found AI to be useful in your day- to-day, either in life or in work.

您发现人工智能在日常生活中（无论是生活还是工作中）在某种程度上很有用。

Is there any way you found some tool ...

有什么办法可以找到一些工具...

some AI tool useful that you can share?

有什么有用的人工智能工具可以分享吗？

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: Oh my gosh, there are so many.

库雷希：天哪，有这么多。

I'll give you a few examples.

我给你举几个例子。

So I use Wispr Flow quite a bit.

所以我经常使用 Wispr Flow。

So this is the talk to your keyboard and it will transcribe for you app.

这就是与您的键盘的对话，它将为您的应用程序转录。

Very good.

非常好。

It's just great when you are iterating very quickly with an LLM and sometimes you have to do these paragraph-long prompts and it's just easier to speak into them.

当你快速迭代法学硕士时，有时你必须做这些长段落的提示，而且对它们说话更容易，这真是太棒了。

So Wispr Flow, I like.

所以 Wispr Flow，我喜欢。

Lenny Rachitsky: Just to double down on that, you press a button and you start talking-

Lenny Rachitsky：为了加倍努力，你按下一个按钮然后开始说话-

Lenny Rachitsky: And it's writing out what you're saying.

Lenny Rachitsky：它正在写出你所说的内容。

Cool.

凉爽的。

And there have been these products for a long time, Dragon Dictate and all these guys.

这些产品已经存在很长时间了，Dragon Dictate 和所有这些家伙。

Is the difference now these are just very, very good now at actually transcribing what you're saying?

现在的区别是这些现在非常非常擅长实际转录你所说的话吗？

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: I think that's right.

库雷希：我认为这是对的。

Yeah, they use a really good model and so it rarely makes mistakes even when I think it's quite challenging.

是的，他们使用了一个非常好的模型，所以即使我认为它非常具有挑战性，它也很少犯错误。

And then, yeah, the UX I think they just nailed.

然后，是的，我认为他们刚刚完成了用户体验。

So that's really good one.

所以这确实是一件好事。

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: I love Claude Code for developing.

Qureshi：我喜欢 Claude Code 的开发工作。

Even though I have my complaints about it, there's something just very addictive about just telling it what to do.

尽管我对此有一些抱怨，但仅仅告诉它做什么就很让人上瘾。

And it's basically something that you run within the terminal of your computer, and so you just type Claude, it opens up the Claude interface.

它基本上是您在计算机终端中运行的东西，因此您只需输入 Claude，它就会打开 Claude 界面。

It's very cute, it's very beautifully designed, and you just tell it what to do.

它非常可爱，设计非常精美，您只需告诉它做什么即可。

And it actually operates on the file system directly.

而且它实际上直接对文件系统进行操作。

So if you're like, "Hey, create a bunch of these files," that'll just do it and you don't need to go and muck around inside Finder yourself.

因此，如果您想，“嘿，创建一堆这样的文件”，那就可以了，您不需要自己在 Finder 中乱七八糟。

And then it'll do these really complicated pull requests and it'll basically execute them quite well.

然后它会执行这些非常复杂的拉取请求，并且基本上会很好地执行它们。

So to me, this is a very exciting kind of preview of AI agents.

所以对我来说，这是一种非常令人兴奋的人工智能代理预览。

Lenny Rachitsky: That's what I was going to ask.

Lenny Rachitsky：这就是我要问的。

So this is essentially an AI agent engineer.

所以这本质上是一个人工智能代理工程师。

I didn't know that's what Claude Code did.

我不知道克劳德·科德就是这么做的。

Very cool.

非常酷。

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: Yeah.

库雷希：是的。

It's sort of a guided agent, but yeah, it is really sweet.

它有点像一个引导代理，但是，是的，它真的很贴心。

And then yeah, I'm just enjoying ...

然后是的，我只是享受......

you know, every week there's a new, wonderful new thing to play with.

你知道，每周都会有新的、美妙的新事物可以玩。

Last seven days, I've been testing Gemini Pro 2.5.

过去 7 天，我一直在测试 Gemini Pro 2.5。

Excellent model.

优秀的模型。

I don't love Google's UX sometimes, but I was playing with that.

有时我不喜欢谷歌的用户体验，但我正在玩它。

And I use LLMs every day for all kinds of things.

我每天都使用法学硕士来做各种各样的事情。

The other day I was doing taxes and I needed to classify a bunch of transactions based on some metadata, and so I just wrote a script up really quickly and it did that.

有一天，我在报税，需要根据一些元数据对一堆交易进行分类，所以我很快就写了一个脚本，它就做到了。

So.

所以。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love just the smile on your face as you're describing all these AI tools.

Lenny Rachitsky：当你描述所有这些人工智能工具时，我喜欢你脸上的微笑。

I think a lot of people are just like, holy shit, I'm just overwhelmed with all the things I need to be paying attention to.

我想很多人都会说，天啊，我只是被所有需要关注的事情压垮了。

All these things I'm hearing, all these tools I got to try.

我听到的所有这些事情，我必须尝试的所有这些工具。

And I love just this vibe of just like, this is incredible and so fun.

我喜欢这种氛围，这太不可思议了，太有趣了。

We need more of that.

我们需要更多这样的东西。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

I'm going to take us to another recurring segment on the podcast.

我将带我们进入播客的另一个重复播放的部分。

You're going to get a double whammy.

你将会受到双重打击。

Contrarian Corner.

逆向角。

So here's the question.

那么问题来了。

What's something that you believe that most other people don't?

有什么是你相信但大多数人不相信的？

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: I think going to college is great.

库雷希：我认为上大学很棒。

I think this is a somewhat contrarian view within tech, maybe not in the broader economy, but I often see people saying just like, oh, if you can just drop out when you're 18 and just start working, why would you go to college?

我认为这在科技领域是一种有点逆向的观点，也许在更广泛的经济领域并非如此，但我经常看到人们这样说，哦，如果你可以在 18 岁时辍学并开始工作，那你为什么要上大学呢？

And I think this is completely wrong, but maybe it's good advice for 5% of the population who probably would've been to your fellows anyway.

我认为这是完全错误的，但对于 5% 的人来说，这也许是个好建议，因为他们可能无论如何都会去过你的同伴那里。

But college is one of the few times when you can just make really, really deep friendships.

但大学是为数不多的几个可以建立非常非常深厚的友谊的时期之一。

You are in typically a nice campus.

你通常身处一个美好的校园。

If you're in North America, you get to spend all of your time just thinking and writing papers and reading books and hanging out with your friends.

如果你在北美，你就会把所有的时间都花在思考、写论文、读书以及和朋友出去玩上。

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: And it's actually very precious and it's very hard to find that kind of time after you turn 21 because you got to pay your rent, you've got to work, you've got to do all this stuff.

库雷希：这实际上非常宝贵，21 岁以后就很难再找到这样的时间了，因为你必须付房租，你必须工作，你必须做所有这些事情。

Let's say you make a bunch of money, you take a career break, it's still ...

假设你赚了一大笔钱，你职业生涯中断了，它仍然......

all your friends are working and you always feel like there's a ticking time or on top of your head or something.

你所有的朋友都在工作，而你总是感觉时间在流逝，或者在你的头顶上什么的。

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: So just taking those three or four years at the very beginning and going really deep on lots of different intellectual topics and being able to try different things and discover more about yourself.

库雷希：所以一开始就花三四年的时间，深入研究许多不同的知识主题，并能够尝试不同的事情并更多地了解自己。

I'm a big college fan.

我是一名大学迷。

I can't comment on the ROI or whatever.

我无法评论投资回报率或其他什么。

I personally think the ROI is great, even though the fees are kind of high in the U.S., but that's probably my kind of contrarian within tech view is don't drop out of college unless you have a really good reason.

我个人认为投资回报率很高，尽管美国的费用有点高，但这可能是我在科技领域的逆向思维，那就是除非你有充分的理由，否则不要从大学退学。

Lenny Rachitsky: It's so funny that that is contrarian and it does sound contrarian.

Lenny Rachitsky：这太有趣了，这是逆向思维，而且听起来确实是逆向思维。

I had a great time in college here.

我在这里度过了一段美好的大学时光。

Here.

这里。

Okay.

好的。

Is there anything else, Nabeel, that you wanted to share or leave listeners with before we get to our very exciting lightning round?

在我们开始激动人心的闪电回合之前，Nabeel，您还有什么想与听众分享或留给听众的吗？

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: No, I think it's a really exciting time in the world.

库雷希：不，我认为这是世界上一个非常激动人心的时刻。

I think AI can be exhausting, but it does really just open up the possibility of building a better world in all these ways.

我认为人工智能可能会让人筋疲力尽，但它确实开启了通过所有这些方式建设一个更美好世界的可能性。

And so I think just reassess what you're doing every couple of months and make sure that it's aligned with where I think AI is going and make sure that you are working on something that you feel has very high potential if it succeeds.

因此，我认为每隔几个月重新评估一下你正在做的事情，确保它与我认为人工智能的发展方向一致，并确保你正在做一些你认为如果成功的话具有很大潜力的事情。

And I think that's more important than ever now just because the amount of leverage we have with technology is at the highest point in history.

我认为这比以往任何时候都更加重要，因为我们对技术的影响力处于历史最高点。

Lenny Rachitsky: Let me double click on that real quick.

Lenny Rachitsky：让我快速双击该按钮。

So for people that want to do what you're describing, what helps you understand where AI is heading and just kind of align with it, are there places of information and news you find useful?

那么，对于那些想要做你所描述的事情的人来说，什么可以帮助你了解人工智能的发展方向并与之保持一致，是否有你认为有用的信息和新闻？

Is it just play with it kind of thing?

难道只是玩玩这种东西吗？

What would you recommend?

你会推荐什么？

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: This is the big question.

库雷希：这是个大问题。

I use X a lot to keep on top of AI, so I would just recommend finding a good Twitter list and maybe following people off of that.

我经常使用 X 来掌握人工智能的最新动态，所以我建议找到一个好的 Twitter 列表，然后关注其中的人。

There's some good newsletters.

有一些很好的时事通讯。

I really like Latent Space, I know his X handle, it's Swyx, S-W-Y-X.

我真的很喜欢 Latent Space，我知道他的 X 手柄，是 Swyx，S-W-Y-X。

I can't remember his actual name, but that one is very good and it's pretty technical.

我不记得他的真名了，但是那个名字非常好，而且很有技术性。

I would recommend trying to stick to the more technical newsletters if possible.

如果可能的话，我建议尝试坚持使用更具技术性的时事通讯。

I think there's a lot of philosophy about AI or AI policy type stuff, and I think that's good if that's your area, but it's an area where it's very easy to have a lot of takes on it.

我认为有很多关于人工智能或人工智能政策类型的哲学，如果这是你的领域，我认为这很好，但这是一个很容易有很多观点的领域。

You're not necessarily learning a lot by reading those.

通过阅读这些内容，您不一定能学到很多东西。

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: But I think it's just important to know what's going on and make sure you are revisiting your own workflows as often as possible.

Qureshi：但我认为了解正在发生的事情并确保尽可能频繁地重新审视自己的工作流程非常重要。

And just making sure that the people who went here are going to be the kind of hybrid cyborgs who fuse with the AIs.

只是要确保来到这里的人将是那种与人工智能融合的混合机器人。

This actually played out in chess, if I can take a slight detour, is the chess players who succeeded the most in the mid 2010s especially were the ones who were really early adopters of neural network based chess engines.

这实际上在国际象棋中得到了体现，如果我可以稍微绕道的话，那就是在 2010 年代中期最成功的国际象棋棋手，尤其是那些真正早期采用基于神经网络的国际象棋引擎的棋手。

So when DeepMind did that thing, there was very quickly an open source version of it called Leela, and you find basically the very top players like Magnus Carlson, Fabiano, they were the ones who kind of mind melded the most with Leela and learned how it played and then kind of started copying its moves.

因此，当 DeepMind 做这件事时，很快就出现了一个名为 Leela 的开源版本，你会发现基本上都是像马格努斯·卡尔森、法比亚诺这样的顶级玩家，他们是那些与 Leela 思想融合最多的人，了解它的玩法，然后开始模仿它的动作。

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: And so I think just becoming a cyborg to the extent that you can.

库雷希：所以我认为只要你能成为一个半机械人就可以了。

And then I think there's this barbell thing of, it's also important to just leave everything at go touch grass just for your own mental sanity.

然后我认为还有一个杠铃的事情，为了你自己的精神理智，把一切都留在草地上也很重要。

Lenny Rachitsky: Excellent advice.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：非常好的建议。

And with that, Nabeel, we've reached our very exciting lightning round.

就这样，纳比尔，我们进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。

Are you ready?

你准备好了吗？

Lenny Rachitsky: Here we go.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我们开始吧。

What are two or three books that you find yourself recommending most to other people?

您发现自己最向其他人推荐的两三本书是什么？

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: The first one that comes to mind is Impro by Keith Johnstone.

Qureshi：第一个想到的是 Keith Johnstone 的 Impro。

This is actually ...

这其实是...

I wrote about it in that essay.

我在那篇文章中写到了这一点。

It's one of the books that used to send to people.

这是过去寄给人们的书之一。

I just think it's a really interesting book.

我只是觉得这是一本非常有趣的书。

So nominally speaking, it's about improvisational theater, which I believe this guy was a pioneer of.

所以名义上来说，这是关于即兴戏剧的，我相信这个人是即兴戏剧的先驱。

He was a British guy, Keith Johnstone, active between the '60s and the 80s I think.

他是英国人基思·约翰斯通 (Keith Johnstone)，我认为他活跃于 20 世纪 60 年代至 80 年代。

And Impro is just this really interesting book about creativity and how social behavior works and basically just what he taught his improv students.

Impro 是一本非常有趣的书，内容涉及创造力和社会行为如何运作，基本上就是他教给他的即兴表演学生的内容。

It's a very weird book.

这是一本非常奇怪的书。

It's full of these unbelievably strange ideas.

它充满了这些令人难以置信的奇怪想法。

There's a lot of very tactical things he tells you to do in the first chapter, for example, just to break out of your own mental frameworks, really just wild stuff.

他在第一章中告诉你要做很多非常战术性的事情，例如，只是为了打破你自己的心理框架，实际上只是疯狂的事情。

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: He'll tell you to walk backwards while counting down from a hundred and think about some problem that you're struggling with and there's all these kind of odd things.

库雷希：他会告诉你从一百开始倒数的同时倒着走，思考一些你正在努力解决的问题，并且有很多奇怪的事情。

But the number of ideas per page I've found on that book is extremely high.

但我在那本书中发现的每页想法数量非常多。

The concepts about how social interaction works and how things like status and so on play into your social behavior are super important.

关于社交互动如何运作以及地位等因素如何影响您的社交行为的概念非常重要。

And they made every kind of fully deployed engineer read that for the simple reason that I think it just helps you kind of read people better and interact with them better and become more conscious of how you are coming across and just modulate that.

他们让各种全面部署的工程师都阅读了这篇文章，原因很简单，我认为它只会帮助你更好地了解人们并与他们更好地互动，并更加意识到你的印象并进行调整。

Lenny Rachitsky: Impro.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：即兴表演。

Okay, cool.

好吧，酷。

We'll link into it in the show notes.

我们将在演出笔记中链接到它。

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: Yeah, so Impro is number one.

Qureshi：是的，所以鹰普是第一。

I think just to go a little more highbrow, maybe Shakespeare's history plays, there's a set of them called the Henriad, so like Henry IV, Henry V, Henry VI.

我想稍微高调一些，也许莎士比亚的历史剧，有一组叫做亨利四世，亨利五世，亨利六世。

I find most people don't read these, so they'll read Hamlet or Macbeth or whatever, but the Henry one is absolutely incredible.

我发现大多数人不读这些，所以他们会读哈姆雷特或麦克白或其他什么，但亨利的那本书绝对令人难以置信。

You don't have to be interested in British monarchy or British history in order to enjoy them.

您不必对英国君主制或英国历史感兴趣才能享受它们。

They're actually some of the most interesting and insightful books I've read about power and how power works and politics and what the sacrifices that you might have to make if you want to be a successful king in that case.

它们实际上是我读过的一些最有趣、最有洞察力的书籍，内容涉及权力、权力如何运作、政治，以及如果你想成为一名成功的国王，你可能必须做出哪些牺牲。

But it transfers over.

但它转移过来了。

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: I think it is worth thinking really hard about, I think especially in a world where everything is kind of organized around these prominent figures and personalities now.

库雷希：我认为这值得认真思考，尤其是在现在一切都围绕这些杰出人物和人物组织的世界中。

When you think about the current administration, you think Trump, Elon, or when you think about AI, you think of Sam Dario, right?

当你想到现任政府时，你会想到特朗普、埃隆，或者当你想到人工智能时，你会想到萨姆·达里奥，对吧？

And so I think it's important to understand, how do you think about these personalities and yeah, the kind of game that they're playing.

所以我认为重要的是要了解，你如何看待这些人物，以及他们正在玩的游戏类型。

And Henry is actually ...

而亨利实际上是……

the Henriad is an incredible kind of set of books around that.

《亨利雅德》是一套令人难以置信的围绕这一点的书籍。

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: They're also easy to read, which sounds hilarious when I say it, but you can read a Shakespeare play in a day.

库雷希：它们也很容易阅读，我这么说听起来很搞笑，但你可以在一天内读完一部莎士比亚戏剧。

They're sort of ...

他们有点...

I don't know, they're like 50 pages long.

I don't know, they're like 50 pages long.

It's not that bad.

没那么糟糕。

You have to get used to the language.

You have to get used to the language.

Yes.

是的。

But I would recommend that for sure.

But I would recommend that for sure.

I guess you asked for two to three.

I guess you asked for two to three.

I love High Output Management by Andy Grove.

I love High Output Management by Andy Grove.

I just think that's a great business book, and people tend to read summaries of it on the internet more than they actually read the book.

我只是认为这是一本很棒的商业书籍，人们倾向于在互联网上阅读它的摘要，而不是实际阅读这本书。

But the actual book has a lot of really interesting stories and explanations about ...

但实际的书有很多非常有趣的故事和解释……

I think the most powerful thing about that book is actually how Andy Grove thinks, and less any of the specific tactics there.

我认为这本书最有影响力的实际上是安迪·格罗夫的思考方式，而不是其中的任何具体策略。

And I think you don't get that unless you read how he came up with all these things.

我认为除非你读过他是如何想出所有这些东西的，否则你不会明白这一点。

Lenny Rachitsky: Your first two books were extremely out there versus what other people have recommended, and the third book was the most recommended book on this podcast.

Lenny Rachitsky: Your first two books were extremely out there versus what other people have recommended, and the third book was the most recommended book on this podcast.

So I love that spectrum that we just went on.

所以我喜欢我们刚刚进行的那个范围。

Perfect.

完美的。

Okay, next question.

好的，下一个问题。

Do you have a favorite recent movie or TV show that you've just really enjoyed?

您最近有最喜欢的电影或电视节目吗？

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: The last movie I really loved was a Decision to Leave.

库雷希：我真正喜欢的最后一部电影是《决定离开》。

It's a Korean movie.

这是一部韩国电影。

It's by the Director of Old Boy, which maybe some people have heard of.

这是《老男孩》的导演，也许有些人听说过。

It's a great movie.

这是一部很棒的电影。

I think it was released a couple years ago and the basic premise is, there's a detective who is investigating a woman who's accused of killing her husband, and he gradually starts falling for her, which starts to affect his judgment in all these ways.

I think it was released a couple years ago and the basic premise is, there's a detective who is investigating a woman who's accused of killing her husband, and he gradually starts falling for her, which starts to affect his judgment in all these ways.

Just a really fascinating kind of psychological thriller with a sort of romantic element to it.

这是一部非常迷人的心理惊悚片，带有某种浪漫元素。

Visually, very beautiful.

视觉上，非常美丽。

Yeah, I think a lot of the most interesting movies nowadays come from abroad actually.

是的，我认为现在很多最有趣的电影实际上都来自国外。

So East Asia, South Asia, places like that.

So East Asia, South Asia, places like that.

TV, I don't watch so much yet.

TV, I don't watch so much yet.

It's been a while.

已经有一段时间了。

Lenny Rachitsky: Totally understandable for a founder.

Lenny Rachitsky：对于创始人来说完全可以理解。

Okay, next question.

好的，下一个问题。

Do you have a favorite product that you've recently discovered that you just really love?

您有最近发现并且真正喜欢的最喜欢的产品吗？

It could be an app, it could be something physical, it could be a water bottle.

它可以是一个应用程序，它可以是物理的东西，它可以是一个水瓶。

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: I don't have a good answer to that one.

Qureshi: I don't have a good answer to that one.

I guess I don't buy enough stuff.

I guess I don't buy enough stuff.

Lenny Rachitsky: Fully acceptable.

Lenny Rachitsky：完全可以接受。

There's no wrong answers in the lightning round.

闪电回合中没有错误答案。

Moving on, do you have a favorite life motto that you often find useful in work or in life that you come back to, that you share with friends or family?

Moving on, do you have a favorite life motto that you often find useful in work or in life that you come back to, that you share with friends or family?

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: So there's this architect called Christopher Alexander who wrote these beautiful books that are about beauty and kind of more than architecture.

Qureshi: So there's this architect called Christopher Alexander who wrote these beautiful books that are about beauty and kind of more than architecture.

And he was a teacher at UC, Berkeley, and he got really frustrated with the students because he just felt like they were always turning in kind of average work.

And he was a teacher at UC, Berkeley, and he got really frustrated with the students because he just felt like they were always turning in kind of average work.

And so he would always tell them every week, imagine there's a gothic cathedral in France called Charge.

所以他每周都会告诉他们，想象一下法国有一座哥特式大教堂，名叫 Charge。

And he would say, you have to aim for Charge.

他会说，你必须瞄准冲锋。

You have to make something that is better than that.

你必须做出比那更好的东西。

That should be your goal, not to just turn in something that's what you feel is good enough.

这应该是你的目标，而不是仅仅交出你认为足够好的东西。

You actually have to try and be better than the very, very best that ever did it.

实际上，你必须尝试并比曾经做过的最好的人做得更好。

And I find myself just repeating this a lot to myself.

我发现自己经常对自己重复这句话。

It's just aim for that, really try and do that.

只是为了这个目标，真正尝试并做到这一点。

Otherwise, it's very easy to anchor on something right in the middle.

否则，很容易锚定在中间的某个东西上。

And you do this unconsciously all the time.

而你一直在无意识地这样做。

Lenny Rachitsky: So is that the motto, just aim for Charge?

Lenny Rachitsky：这就是座右铭吗，只为冲锋？

Lenny Rachitsky: I love that.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢这个。

Most people have no idea what that would be, but with the context is quite powerful.

大多数人不知道那会是什么，但结合上下文是相当强大的。

Final question, what's a classic novel that `you think would be most valuable for product builders?

最后一个问题，“您认为对产品开发者最有价值的经典小说是什么？”

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: My favorite novel is Anna Karenina, and I would recommend that everyone read Erica.

库雷希：我最喜欢的小说是《安娜·卡列尼娜》，我推荐大家都读一下《艾丽卡》。

Lenny Rachitsky: I'm reading that right now.

Lenny Rachitsky：我现在正在读这篇文章。

I've never read it before.

我以前从未读过。

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: No way.

库雷希：不可能。

And yeah, so it's by Leo Tolstoy.

是的，这就是列夫·托尔斯泰的作品。

It's this epic 19th century Russian novel that follows a set of characters across society.

这是一部 19 世纪俄罗斯史诗小说，讲述了社会各阶层的人物故事。

And I think it's just extraordinary because what's amazing about him is he's just able to imagine himself into the brain of anybody.

我认为这很了不起，因为他的神奇之处在于他能够将自己想象成任何人的大脑。

And so even ...

所以甚至...

he will briefly just go into the consciousness of, I don't know, the servant who's bringing the meal to the table or something like that.

他会短暂地进入，我不知道，那个把饭菜端到餐桌上的仆人或类似的人的意识。

And he'll just tell you a page of what they were thinking, and then he'll just flip back into his main character's head.

他只会告诉你一页他们的想法，然后他就会回到主角的头脑中。

And I think that is the most impressive demonstration of this kind of skill I've ever seen.

我认为这是我见过的此类技能最令人印象深刻的展示。

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: And I think, to connect it to your question, this is what you have to do if you're going to be really good at product, is you have to really think yourself into the other person's head, and you have to be really seeing it the way that they do.

库雷希：我认为，为了将其与你的问题联系起来，如果你想真正擅长产品，那么你必须做的就是你必须真正从别人的角度思考自己，并且你必须真正以他们的方式看待它。

And it's so hard, especially as a founder or product person, not to just get stuck on your own way of seeing the problem, right?

尤其是作为创始人或产品人员，不要只坚持自己看待问题的方式是非常困难的，对吧​​？

You wrote up this doc, you made these marks.

你写了这篇文档，你做了这些标记。

You're like, this is going to be great.

你会想，这会很棒。

And then you take it to somebody, they don't care that much.

然后你把它拿给某人，他们不太关心。

You really have to exercise your empathy and understand why they see it that way and what they actually care about.

你真的必须运用你的同理心，理解他们为什么这么看以及他们真正关心的是什么。

Lenny Rachitsky: What a beautiful way to bring it all together.

Lenny Rachitsky：将这一切结合在一起是多么美妙的方式啊。

Let me also add, while I'm reading the book, something ...

我在读这本书的时候还想补充一点……

a tip here is, people talk about having Chat GPT voice mode, just kind of sitting there next to you.

这里的一个提示是，人们谈论聊天 GPT 语音模式，就像坐在你旁边一样。

I found that extremely helpful with this book where I just ask what the hell does this thing mean?

我发现这对这本书非常有帮助，我只是问这到底是什么意思？

There's all these Russian dances and balls and etiquette.

这里有所有这些俄罗斯舞蹈、舞会和礼仪。

You just ask and you're like, I'm reading Anna Karenina, what does this mean?

你只要问，你就会说，我正在读《安娜·卡列尼娜》，这是什么意思？

And it just tells you.

它只是告诉你。

Lenny Rachitsky: So there's another cool tip for AI.

Lenny Rachitsky：人工智能还有另一个很酷的技巧。

Okay.

好的。

With that, Nabeel, this was incredible.

纳比尔，这真是令人难以置信。

Two final questions in case people want to look you up.

最后两个问题，以防人们想查找您。

Where can they find you online and how can listeners be useful to you?

他们可以在网上哪里找到您？听众如何对您有用？

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: Find me online, my website is nabeelqu.co and my X handle is Nabeel QU, I'm probably most active on that, but yeah, my website has all the links and a bunch of essays and interesting stuff.

Qureshi：在线找到我，我的网站是 nabeelqu.co，我的 X 账号是 Nabeel QU，我可能在这方面最活跃，但是，是的，我的网站有所有链接以及一堆文章和有趣的东西。

How can you help me?

你能帮我什么忙？

I would say send me an email.

我想说给我发一封电子邮件。

My email is on my website.

我的电子邮件在我的网站上。

Introduce yourself, say hi.

自我介绍一下，打个招呼。

I love meeting people.

我喜欢与人见面。

I don't always have time for coffees nowadays or things like that, but I genuinely do get a lot of energy from just receiving emails from interesting people, so please do reach out.

现在我并不总是有时间喝咖啡或类似的事情，但我确实从收到有趣的人的电子邮件中获得了很多能量，所以请务必与我们联系。

Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

Definitely check out Nabeel's Principles.

一定要看看纳比尔的原则。

Is that the name of that post?

这是那个帖子的名字吗？

Lenny Rachitsky: Great.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

Okay.

好的。

That's one to start with, and then also there's the Palantir Post that we just talked through.

这是一个开始，然后还有我们刚刚讨论过的 Palantir Post。

Okay.

好的。

Nabeel, thank you so much for being here.

纳比尔，非常感谢你来到这里。

Nabeel S.

纳比尔·S。

Qureshi: Thank you.

库雷希：谢谢。

Appreciate it, Lenny.

欣赏它，莱尼。

Lenny Rachitsky: Bye everyone.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：大家再见。

Thank you so much for listening.

非常感谢您的聆听。

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如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.

您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。